0:00:01 Epstein and Trump were close.
0:00:02 Sorry, Donald, just a fact.
0:00:05 And when Elon Musk tweets Trump’s on the list,
0:00:08 and a few days later, there is no list, it begs questions.
0:00:12 So they dangled this in order to get votes, and they lied to people.
0:00:15 And we’re only six months in, and the vandalization that he’s done,
0:00:18 pushing the boundaries on the rule of law, this is darkness.
0:00:20 Really? Because I hear this every election cycle.
0:00:23 No, it’s a dangerous game, and America is struggling,
0:00:25 and I really worry about our democracy.
0:00:29 But Trump is likely to lose power unless they can rig the game.
0:00:33 Governor Gavin Newsom, are you going to try and become
0:00:35 the next president of the United States?
0:00:38 Governor of California.
0:00:39 Gavin Newsom.
0:00:40 Gavin Newsom.
0:00:42 Who is the real Gavin Newsom?
0:00:45 I think most people see me as sort of a slick guy,
0:00:46 grew up with a trust fund.
0:00:48 But I didn’t come from any wealth.
0:00:50 Like, my mom was her single mom.
0:00:51 She was working two, three jobs.
0:00:54 She ran out of her own bedroom, sacrificed everything for two kids.
0:00:58 And I was going nowhere academically, but she never gave up on me.
0:01:00 And as your sort of political career starts to accelerate,
0:01:01 she was diagnosed with breast cancer.
0:01:04 Yeah, and she was in so much pain, suffering,
0:01:05 she’s going to do an assisted suicide.
0:01:10 And I was holding her hand, and she’s going…
0:01:12 And her last breath.
0:01:15 But look, everything that finds the best of me,
0:01:17 grit, hard work, is reflected in her.
0:01:19 And that led to me sitting here with you
0:01:21 as governor of California in politics.
0:01:22 He’s an incompetent governor.
0:01:23 Look at the job he’s doing.
0:01:25 He’s a stone-cold liar.
0:01:27 There’s always conflict between you and Trump.
0:01:29 I think he enjoys sparring with me.
0:01:32 I know he thrives on it, but I’d be lying if I didn’t say it.
0:01:34 Every time I have a conversation, it’s unbelievably cordial.
0:01:36 And he says, you need anything, call me.
0:01:38 Including the night before he, quote-unquote,
0:01:41 federalized the National Guard, but then calls me news.
0:01:43 He wants to take me out.
0:01:44 Do you think he’s going to try and stay in power?
0:01:47 So, I don’t think I’m exaggerating.
0:01:49 But when people close to Donald Trump
0:01:51 send the governor of California,
0:01:54 hey, they’re not being around.
0:01:58 Just give me 30 seconds of your time.
0:02:00 Two things I wanted to say.
0:02:01 The first thing is a huge thank you
0:02:04 for listening and tuning into the show week after week.
0:02:05 It means the world to all of us,
0:02:08 and this really is a dream that we absolutely never had
0:02:10 and couldn’t have imagined getting to this place.
0:02:13 But secondly, it’s a dream where we feel like
0:02:14 we’re only just getting started.
0:02:16 And if you enjoy what we do here,
0:02:18 please join the 24% of people
0:02:20 that listen to this podcast regularly
0:02:22 and follow us on this app.
0:02:23 here’s a promise I’m going to make to you.
0:02:26 I’m going to do everything in my power
0:02:28 to make this show as good as I can
0:02:29 now and into the future.
0:02:30 We’re going to deliver the guests
0:02:31 that you want me to speak to,
0:02:33 and we’re going to continue to keep doing
0:02:35 all of the things you love about this show.
0:02:36 Thank you.
0:02:41 Governor Gavin Newsom.
0:02:45 Can you quite believe your life?
0:02:51 You’re running one of the most consequential states in America,
0:02:53 arguably the most consequential state in America,
0:02:56 but also I read that it’s the fourth highest GDP
0:02:58 in the world.
0:03:00 It’s always in the headlines.
0:03:02 There’s always conflict between you and Trump.
0:03:04 I just wanted to start with this question.
0:03:06 Can you believe your life?
0:03:09 If you talk to my 10-year-old self,
0:03:10 this is impossible.
0:03:11 I could have even dreamt it.
0:03:14 I don’t know if it was a dream or a nightmare at 10.
0:03:19 I mean, I’m not sure this is what I wanted at 10.
0:03:21 I’m not sure I wanted this at 20 or even 30.
0:03:25 And I know you’re going to continue to shoulder roll
0:03:26 what I’m going to say,
0:03:29 but many of the bookmakers, the odds,
0:03:31 have you as being the next president
0:03:33 of the United States in 2028.
0:03:34 I’m going to throw that.
0:03:35 I know you’re going to shoulder roll it
0:03:37 and tell me California.
0:03:38 Well, that’s surreal.
0:03:39 I mean, that’s ridiculous.
0:03:43 I mean, that’s something that even in those higher moments,
0:03:45 not low moments where I may have had
0:03:46 a little bit more confidence,
0:03:48 a million years would never have imagined
0:03:50 that I would be at this moment.
0:03:53 And yeah, that creates a lot of humility,
0:03:55 I have a lot of grace around that.
0:03:57 I mean, the idea that you’re even in the conversation.
0:03:59 I know that sounds rote and cliched,
0:04:00 a little humble brag.
0:04:04 The fact that I’m in the conversation is extraordinary.
0:04:05 Is it a reality?
0:04:05 I don’t know.
0:04:07 I mean, that’s fate will determine.
0:04:09 I totally understand that.
0:04:11 But I want to just get clear on one thing,
0:04:17 which is you would be honored to play the role
0:04:18 as president of the United States
0:04:22 if and when that opportunity called or presented itself.
0:04:22 Yeah.
0:04:24 I mean, I don’t know about playing the role,
0:04:26 but if it, you know, if the moment meets you
0:04:27 and you meet the moment,
0:04:31 if you can express with congruency the why,
0:04:33 and you can do it without the pretense
0:04:35 and you can do it with authenticity
0:04:39 and you truly believe that you add value
0:04:42 against others that may be lined up.
0:04:44 Yeah.
0:04:46 But, you know, I won’t go through the motion.
0:04:48 I don’t need to be something to do something.
0:04:48 Yeah.
0:04:52 For me, it’s, you’ve got to, I mean, got to feel it.
0:04:55 It’s got to be in my core, my soul.
0:04:58 It’s got to be a burning need and desire
0:05:01 to be accountable and to reflect the moment
0:05:02 and reflect the aspirations and the dreams
0:05:04 of millions and millions of people
0:05:06 and have enough confidence
0:05:08 that you feel you can deliver in that respect.
0:05:10 Do you think you could deliver in that respect?
0:05:12 You know, increasingly, which is strange.
0:05:14 I want to, I don’t know that I could have said that
0:05:14 a few years ago.
0:05:15 I mean that.
0:05:18 I feel like things for me have radically changed
0:05:19 and we can get into why.
0:05:20 I mean, I’ve gone through,
0:05:23 they’re working on the seventh recall against me right now.
0:05:25 I went through a recall process.
0:05:27 I’ve been on the receiving end of a national effort
0:05:29 to, you know, try to do everything
0:05:31 to undermine what I’m doing.
0:05:33 And going up against Trump and Trumpism
0:05:35 and the surround sound
0:05:37 and these propaganda networks 24-7,
0:05:38 I’m more resolved now.
0:05:40 I mean, in an intense way.
0:05:43 Ways I’m discovering myself in this process.
0:05:45 I’m in the other side
0:05:48 of where I ever expected to be,
0:05:48 even a year ago.
0:05:51 And I feel deeply accountable
0:05:53 and deeply responsible
0:05:54 and deeply motivated.
0:05:56 I don’t know where that takes me
0:05:59 but I know I have a responsibility
0:06:00 over the next 18 months
0:06:03 and I’m going to run the 110-yard dash.
0:06:05 I’m not going to run the 90-yard dash
0:06:06 on the way out of here.
0:06:08 And so that’s what I know.
0:06:09 I’ve got a sell-by date
0:06:11 and I’m going to put everything on the line.
0:06:12 Let’s get into it then
0:06:14 in terms of your early context
0:06:15 and your childhood
0:06:18 because I think you have to understand that
0:06:19 to understand the person
0:06:20 and the complexities of the person
0:06:21 that I’m sat in front of today.
0:06:22 So can you give me the specifics
0:06:23 of your earliest context?
0:06:25 You know, I think it’s shaped
0:06:26 like so many people watching.
0:06:27 I mean, how many of us,
0:06:29 over half of us,
0:06:30 had similar experiences
0:06:31 of, you know,
0:06:32 a 19-year-old who’s pregnant
0:06:35 with her firstborn, me.
0:06:36 And a few years later,
0:06:38 she’s on her own with two kids.
0:06:40 She came from no wealth,
0:06:41 no real privilege.
0:06:42 Her father committed suicide,
0:06:43 was a prisoner of war
0:06:45 coming out of World War II.
0:06:47 She struggled with her own identity,
0:06:48 her own confidence.
0:06:50 She struggled raising two kids.
0:06:53 My father, who left us,
0:06:54 but not in disgrace,
0:06:56 who was an extraordinary figure,
0:06:57 but an elusive figure growing up
0:06:58 and sort of marked
0:07:00 so much of my early childhood
0:07:01 as sort of longing,
0:07:02 trying to connect.
0:07:04 But the anchor, the rock,
0:07:07 was this rock star single mom.
0:07:09 And everything defines
0:07:10 the best of me
0:07:11 and the worst of me.
0:07:13 This notion of grit, hard work,
0:07:14 you got to manifest,
0:07:15 nothing’s going to be handed to you,
0:07:17 is reflected in her.
0:07:17 At the same time,
0:07:19 a lot of the anxiety and fear,
0:07:21 a sense of, you know,
0:07:22 I mean, sometimes loneliness.
0:07:24 I mean, she was a very lonely person.
0:07:25 Tessa.
0:07:26 Yeah, Tessa passed away
0:07:28 almost two decades ago.
0:07:30 And I’m now older than she was
0:07:31 when she passed away.
0:07:32 And, you know, I just,
0:07:35 I never fully appreciated her
0:07:37 to the degree I do now
0:07:38 as a father,
0:07:40 as a mother struggling
0:07:43 struggling with not only herself,
0:07:45 just trying to be a good mother,
0:07:47 trying to have a career,
0:07:47 a life,
0:07:48 but also struggling
0:07:50 to support her kids
0:07:51 and support a kid,
0:07:53 in this case, me,
0:07:54 who was struggling in every way,
0:07:56 particularly with pretty severe
0:07:57 learning disabilities,
0:07:58 with self-esteem,
0:08:01 and never fully appreciated
0:08:02 her sacrifice.
0:08:03 Give me the color
0:08:04 on the learning disabilities
0:08:06 because someone looks at you,
0:08:07 someone so accomplished
0:08:07 in both business
0:08:08 and in politics,
0:08:10 and you say that you had
0:08:10 learning difficulties
0:08:11 as a child.
0:08:13 I mean, I was a guy
0:08:14 in the back of the class.
0:08:16 I was a guy with the head down.
0:08:17 I was a guy, you know,
0:08:18 soaking wet, sweating.
0:08:21 I was a guy shaking underneath,
0:08:22 not physically shaking.
0:08:25 Desperate not to be called on
0:08:25 in the class.
0:08:26 I’m someone who still
0:08:27 can’t read a speech.
0:08:30 You’re in the wrong business,
0:08:30 I think, politics.
0:08:32 You can’t read a speech.
0:08:33 You could do a teleprompter,
0:08:34 but you’ll never see me.
0:08:35 You haven’t seen me
0:08:35 go up and down
0:08:36 looking at a speech.
0:08:37 I can’t.
0:08:38 I still struggle to read.
0:08:39 If I read,
0:08:40 I have to underline everything.
0:08:42 I have to organize
0:08:43 everything through
0:08:44 not only underlining,
0:08:45 highlighting,
0:08:46 and then I go back
0:08:48 and reread what I underlined
0:08:49 in order to understand it.
0:08:49 Once I understand it,
0:08:50 boy, I understand it.
0:08:51 I mean, then it becomes,
0:08:53 you know, part of who I am,
0:08:54 which is the other side
0:08:55 of dyslexia.
0:08:56 But, you know,
0:08:57 I was a guy that
0:08:59 was going nowhere academically.
0:09:00 You know, I was just,
0:09:01 I was that kid.
0:09:02 And I had a sister
0:09:04 that was the exact opposite.
0:09:04 You know,
0:09:06 I’m getting my 960
0:09:06 in American SAT.
0:09:08 She was getting 1380.
0:09:10 It was easy for her.
0:09:11 Everything was easy for her.
0:09:13 And so that contrast
0:09:14 and that anxiety
0:09:15 that came from that contrast
0:09:16 and the struggle
0:09:17 that my mom had
0:09:18 of trying to sort of
0:09:19 work with me,
0:09:20 work, and, you know,
0:09:21 that was,
0:09:22 that marked so much of,
0:09:22 you know,
0:09:23 my memories
0:09:24 and decades of my life.
0:09:25 And at that early age,
0:09:26 sub 10,
0:09:27 what did you think
0:09:28 of yourself?
0:09:29 What was your self-perception,
0:09:30 self-image?
0:09:31 The thing that,
0:09:32 you know,
0:09:33 I don’t think
0:09:34 I’ve shared
0:09:35 is the thing
0:09:37 that is most indelible
0:09:38 in my life
0:09:38 when my mother
0:09:40 was struggling with me
0:09:40 and I’ll never forget it.
0:09:42 And I don’t recall
0:09:43 if I responded to her
0:09:43 at the time,
0:09:45 but it’s marked
0:09:46 half a century
0:09:47 of my life
0:09:48 when she said,
0:09:50 because I couldn’t,
0:09:50 I was just,
0:09:51 I was giving up.
0:09:52 I couldn’t read
0:09:53 this chapter
0:09:53 or whatever it was.
0:09:53 She said,
0:09:54 it’s okay
0:09:54 to be average.
0:09:55 Like,
0:09:59 and I think
0:09:59 about that
0:10:00 all the time,
0:10:00 man.
0:10:01 I mean,
0:10:03 and I forgive her,
0:10:04 I think,
0:10:05 for that.
0:10:06 I think
0:10:08 because she was
0:10:08 struggling with me,
0:10:10 but that’s a hell
0:10:10 of a thing
0:10:11 to say to a kid.
0:10:12 And I think
0:10:13 she was just saying
0:10:13 it’s okay.
0:10:14 You don’t have
0:10:14 to be your sister.
0:10:16 You’re not your dad.
0:10:17 You know,
0:10:17 you’ll never be
0:10:18 that person.
0:10:20 I loved her deeply
0:10:21 and I’m here
0:10:22 because of her,
0:10:23 but that,
0:10:24 shapes a lot
0:10:25 of the early,
0:10:27 that person
0:10:28 that,
0:10:28 you know,
0:10:29 and it’s shaped
0:10:30 who I’ve become
0:10:31 because I’ve done
0:10:31 everything in my power
0:10:34 to overcompensate
0:10:36 for the struggle
0:10:38 and for that mindset
0:10:40 where I could have
0:10:41 easily believed that
0:10:43 and I could have
0:10:44 easily become that.
0:10:46 In terms of money
0:10:47 in the home,
0:10:48 I sometimes think of
0:10:49 when I think about
0:10:49 my own childhood,
0:10:50 money was almost
0:10:51 this other person.
0:10:51 You know,
0:10:52 it’s funny,
0:10:52 we talk about
0:10:53 attachment styles
0:10:53 and we say
0:10:54 some people have
0:10:54 like this avoidant
0:10:55 attachment style,
0:10:56 this anxious attachment style,
0:10:57 this secure attachment style
0:10:58 and I think of money
0:10:59 in the same way.
0:11:01 It’s in homes,
0:11:03 it’s a person.
0:11:04 Sometimes it’s distant
0:11:04 and never there.
0:11:05 Sometimes it’s causing
0:11:05 the argument.
0:11:07 What was money
0:11:08 in your household?
0:11:09 Like what was the relationship
0:11:10 that you’d formed with it?
0:11:11 Well,
0:11:12 I had interesting experience
0:11:13 with money
0:11:15 because we didn’t
0:11:16 come from any wealth
0:11:17 but my father,
0:11:20 his relationships
0:11:21 were attached
0:11:22 to extraordinary wealth,
0:11:23 abundance of wealth.
0:11:25 His closest friends
0:11:25 in the world
0:11:26 were some of the richest
0:11:27 families in the world
0:11:29 and he,
0:11:31 while he didn’t have
0:11:32 himself tremendous amount
0:11:32 of wealth,
0:11:34 he led a very wealthy
0:11:34 lifestyle.
0:11:35 Meanwhile,
0:11:36 my mom and I
0:11:37 and my sister
0:11:37 were there
0:11:38 doing,
0:11:39 you know,
0:11:40 our Swanson’s,
0:11:41 you know,
0:11:42 frozen food.
0:11:43 We’re doing our
0:11:44 crap macaroni and cheese.
0:11:45 We’re doing our,
0:11:45 you know,
0:11:47 but money was always
0:11:48 the source of the stress
0:11:49 because he didn’t
0:11:50 have much to give her.
0:11:51 She didn’t have much,
0:11:52 period.
0:11:53 So she was working
0:11:53 two,
0:11:54 three jobs
0:11:54 and when I say
0:11:54 two,
0:11:55 three jobs,
0:11:55 when I say that,
0:11:56 I mean literally
0:11:57 two,
0:11:57 three jobs.
0:11:58 We had guests
0:11:59 always living at the house.
0:12:00 I didn’t understand
0:12:01 what guests living
0:12:01 at the house mean.
0:12:02 She moved out
0:12:03 of her own bedroom
0:12:05 to rent out the bedroom.
0:12:06 If you wanted something,
0:12:07 I had a paper route,
0:12:08 worked for Jeff Hicks
0:12:09 Construction.
0:12:10 If you want a basketball hoop,
0:12:11 you’re going to have
0:12:11 to work for it.
0:12:12 There was nothing handed,
0:12:13 nothing given.
0:12:15 And so she was grinding.
0:12:16 She’s working
0:12:17 in part-time waitress.
0:12:18 I got in the restaurant business.
0:12:19 I was a busboy.
0:12:20 And there’s some moments
0:12:21 that changed my life there
0:12:22 that I’ll never,
0:12:22 ever,
0:12:22 ever,
0:12:23 ever,
0:12:23 ever forget.
0:12:25 And so money
0:12:27 was a source of stress
0:12:30 but also some evil
0:12:30 in the context
0:12:31 of too much
0:12:33 and seeing the abundance
0:12:34 with people I knew,
0:12:35 with trust funds,
0:12:36 with the relationship
0:12:37 to money,
0:12:38 where they lost
0:12:38 their motivation,
0:12:39 they lost their purpose,
0:12:40 their meaning,
0:12:40 their mission.
0:12:42 And so when I started
0:12:43 getting into business,
0:12:44 it was never about
0:12:45 making money.
0:12:45 It was about
0:12:46 making a difference.
0:12:46 It was about
0:12:47 building something,
0:12:48 a brand.
0:12:49 It was about
0:12:50 adding some value.
0:12:51 And that pursuit,
0:12:52 I think,
0:12:53 created a mindset
0:12:54 where the businesses
0:12:56 actually really thrived
0:12:57 because it wasn’t
0:12:58 about the money.
0:12:58 It was about
0:12:59 something more important.
0:13:00 It was bigger than that.
0:13:01 And so my relationship
0:13:03 to money in that respect
0:13:04 really became a gift,
0:13:05 a guide,
0:13:06 in terms of my
0:13:08 entrepreneurial pursuits.
0:13:09 Dyslexia certainly
0:13:10 was the greatest gift
0:13:11 in the relationship
0:13:12 to the entrepreneurial suits.
0:13:13 And that led to this,
0:13:14 led to me sitting here
0:13:16 with you as governor
0:13:17 of California in politics.
0:13:18 And when did you find out
0:13:19 you had dyslexia?
0:13:21 Because I read that your mother…
0:13:22 She didn’t tell me.
0:13:24 And I wonder,
0:13:24 I think about this
0:13:25 because I’ve got a couple
0:13:26 kids that are struggling.
0:13:29 And we made the mistake
0:13:30 with one of them
0:13:30 to tell them,
0:13:31 yeah, I think you got…
0:13:32 And now uses it as a crutch.
0:13:34 And she never wanted it
0:13:34 as a crutch.
0:13:35 She never told me.
0:13:36 She said,
0:13:37 I found out about it.
0:13:38 I was home early one day,
0:13:39 came back from school.
0:13:41 And I don’t know why,
0:13:42 but I handed up in her room.
0:13:43 And I’m looking,
0:13:44 she’s got a little desk
0:13:45 and there’s a file open.
0:13:45 And I’m like,
0:13:46 looking through files.
0:13:48 And then I saw
0:13:49 the word dyslexia.
0:13:49 I’m like,
0:13:51 the hell is this?
0:13:52 And I remember she got home.
0:13:52 I said,
0:13:53 mom, what is this?
0:13:55 And she goes,
0:13:55 put that away.
0:13:56 I’m like,
0:13:57 what is it?
0:13:57 She goes,
0:13:57 no,
0:13:59 and we had this
0:14:00 conversation.
0:14:01 She said,
0:14:01 I didn’t really want
0:14:02 to talk to you about it.
0:14:03 You’ve been struggling with it.
0:14:03 I said,
0:14:04 I know I can’t read it.
0:14:05 You know,
0:14:05 I’m stupid, mom.
0:14:06 And she said,
0:14:07 no, you’re not stupid.
0:14:08 We’re working through all that.
0:14:09 And she just didn’t want
0:14:10 to create the stigma.
0:14:11 She didn’t want me
0:14:12 to use it as a crutch,
0:14:13 as an excuse.
0:14:15 I think I’m angry back
0:14:17 to the sort of,
0:14:17 you know,
0:14:18 dialect in my own brain
0:14:19 about good,
0:14:20 bad.
0:14:22 I appreciated that
0:14:23 because it was an excuse,
0:14:24 not a victim.
0:14:25 Decisions,
0:14:26 not conditions,
0:14:27 term our fate and future.
0:14:28 This notion
0:14:30 that we can shape things
0:14:31 that I don’t,
0:14:32 that I wasn’t stigmatized
0:14:33 in that respect.
0:14:35 So I can make excuses
0:14:35 around it.
0:14:37 I had to work around it.
0:14:38 I had to work through it.
0:14:39 And I think
0:14:40 that was the path
0:14:41 she chose.
0:14:42 and I’m in many ways
0:14:43 grateful that she did.
0:14:44 Were you bullied
0:14:45 by other children?
0:14:45 Yeah,
0:14:47 we had Baltimore Street.
0:14:48 I told the president
0:14:48 this too.
0:14:51 Speaking of Trump,
0:14:53 we were talking
0:14:54 a few weeks ago
0:14:54 and he goes,
0:14:54 hey,
0:14:56 this new scum thing,
0:14:56 you know,
0:14:57 because he calls me
0:14:57 new scum,
0:14:58 Gavin,
0:14:59 new scum.
0:14:59 He goes,
0:15:00 pretty original,
0:15:00 right?
0:15:01 I said,
0:15:02 it’s not,
0:15:03 Ms. President,
0:15:04 it’s not particularly original.
0:15:06 And he goes,
0:15:06 what do you mean?
0:15:07 What do you mean?
0:15:07 I said,
0:15:07 well,
0:15:09 there was the bully
0:15:10 on Baltimore Street
0:15:11 in Corte Madera,
0:15:12 California,
0:15:12 he used to call me
0:15:13 new scum.
0:15:14 He goes,
0:15:14 ah,
0:15:14 hey,
0:15:14 well,
0:15:15 you know,
0:15:15 whatever,
0:15:15 yeah.
0:15:17 I mean,
0:15:18 he was 7,
0:15:18 8,
0:15:18 or 9,
0:15:19 you’re 79,
0:15:20 Mr. President.
0:15:21 I told him that too.
0:15:22 And he moved
0:15:22 immediately off
0:15:23 on another topic.
0:15:24 Yeah,
0:15:25 so we,
0:15:25 you know,
0:15:27 I was the bowl cut guy,
0:15:28 the hair,
0:15:28 you know,
0:15:29 the Dutch boy look,
0:15:29 you know,
0:15:30 you remember,
0:15:30 I don’t know if you
0:15:31 remember the old
0:15:31 Dutch boy stuff,
0:15:33 the sort of American,
0:15:35 iconic American brand.
0:15:38 and it was easy
0:15:39 to see why
0:15:40 I might have been bullied.
0:15:42 I’ve got a picture here
0:15:42 of you.
0:15:43 Look at me,
0:15:43 in fact,
0:15:44 isn’t that great?
0:15:46 So you get the haircut,
0:15:47 you get the vibe.
0:15:49 This is my father
0:15:51 trying to insert,
0:15:53 so Irish Catholic family,
0:15:54 my dad went to
0:15:55 Catholic schools
0:15:56 and so by definition,
0:15:58 I went to Catholic school.
0:15:59 My mother,
0:16:00 who loved the sailor outfits,
0:16:01 knee high,
0:16:01 black socks.
0:16:03 Yeah,
0:16:04 you’re likely to get bullied
0:16:05 or going to the bus.
0:16:06 It’s not the best cut,
0:16:06 but we’ve all,
0:16:07 we’ve all had,
0:16:08 we’ve all been on a journey
0:16:09 with our haircuts.
0:16:10 It’s good.
0:16:11 When I hear your story
0:16:12 and the context
0:16:13 you grew up in
0:16:14 with your mother,
0:16:14 with the bullying,
0:16:16 with the challenges at school,
0:16:17 with the dad,
0:16:18 that’s a way.
0:16:19 And I know the stats
0:16:21 around young boys
0:16:22 that grew up in particular
0:16:23 that don’t have
0:16:24 a father figure at home.
0:16:24 That,
0:16:25 for me,
0:16:26 that’s a perfect recipe
0:16:27 for like small T,
0:16:28 maybe big T trauma
0:16:29 in some capacity.
0:16:31 Later in your life,
0:16:32 you talked about
0:16:34 having challenges
0:16:35 with alcohol.
0:16:36 Yeah,
0:16:36 oh yeah,
0:16:36 no.
0:16:37 And I wondered
0:16:39 if that picture,
0:16:40 that’s part of the same picture,
0:16:42 which is putting the mask
0:16:43 on various forms
0:16:43 of escapism.
0:16:44 Yeah.
0:16:45 No,
0:16:45 100%.
0:16:46 Well,
0:16:46 look,
0:16:46 I mean,
0:16:48 my grandfather
0:16:49 that took his life
0:16:50 was an alcoholic.
0:16:53 And my mother
0:16:54 struggled a little bit
0:16:55 and it was more
0:16:55 self-medicating.
0:16:56 For me,
0:16:57 I started discovering
0:16:58 that as well.
0:16:58 Of course,
0:16:58 look,
0:16:59 I got in the wine business.
0:17:00 Yeah.
0:17:01 So I’m neatly attracted
0:17:03 to the business side of it.
0:17:04 Opened a wine store
0:17:05 right out of college.
0:17:07 Opened a number of restaurants
0:17:08 at seven or eight restaurants.
0:17:09 Have four wineries
0:17:11 as I speak today.
0:17:12 So wine became ubiquitous
0:17:13 in my life.
0:17:13 It was also my connection
0:17:14 back to my dad,
0:17:15 which is a whole other journey.
0:17:16 And you started
0:17:18 that business in 1992,
0:17:19 which was the year
0:17:19 I was born.
0:17:21 And as I,
0:17:21 as I,
0:17:24 as I sit here
0:17:26 32 years later,
0:17:27 the business still exists.
0:17:28 You’ve placed it into a trust.
0:17:29 It still exists.
0:17:30 And I grew about,
0:17:32 there were 22 or four businesses
0:17:33 at peak,
0:17:34 about a thousand employees
0:17:34 at peak.
0:17:36 Came from that one business.
0:17:38 I was the only full-time employee
0:17:39 for almost two years.
0:17:40 Yeah,
0:17:40 I’ll tell you,
0:17:41 just the greatest training
0:17:43 for politics and life,
0:17:44 just opening your own business,
0:17:45 small business.
0:17:46 And those were
0:17:47 some special days
0:17:48 and went from that
0:17:49 to a restaurant
0:17:50 up the block.
0:17:51 A few years later,
0:17:52 a hotel,
0:17:53 a winery,
0:17:54 now four wineries.
0:17:57 We had five or six hotels
0:17:58 and nine restaurants
0:17:58 at peak
0:18:00 and businesses
0:18:00 are still around.
0:18:02 I was reading that
0:18:03 you had this sort of scheme
0:18:05 where you gave employees
0:18:06 $500
0:18:08 for a magical moment award.
0:18:09 Well,
0:18:10 it was a failure award.
0:18:10 A failure award.
0:18:11 And then it became,
0:18:13 my sister took over
0:18:14 because I got into politics
0:18:15 and she said,
0:18:16 I don’t like this failure framework.
0:18:17 I said,
0:18:17 well,
0:18:18 it’s the best.
0:18:19 I love failure.
0:18:20 I’m good at it.
0:18:22 Dyslexics are the best at it.
0:18:24 There’s nothing linear
0:18:25 about our lives.
0:18:26 It’s fail forward fast,
0:18:27 missed 100% of the shots
0:18:27 you don’t take.
0:18:28 So you were giving employees
0:18:30 $500 if they failed.
0:18:31 Yeah,
0:18:31 I had a great,
0:18:33 just a very brief example.
0:18:35 So I had a little hotel
0:18:35 up in Squaw Valley,
0:18:37 Lake Tahoe area,
0:18:38 and a lot of mosquitoes
0:18:38 during the summer months.
0:18:40 It’s an old motel
0:18:42 built for the Winter Olympics,
0:18:43 the 1960 Winter Olympics,
0:18:44 built in 1959
0:18:44 for the delegates.
0:18:46 It was supposed to be torn down.
0:18:47 It sort of patched together
0:18:49 and we held it together
0:18:50 but it had no air conditioning.
0:18:51 So you’d keep the doors open,
0:18:52 you’d keep the windows open,
0:18:53 but in the summer,
0:18:54 the mosquitoes came in,
0:18:55 drove the guests crazy.
0:18:56 So we had this night clerk,
0:18:57 you know,
0:18:58 those crazy night clerks come in
0:18:59 and he was getting complaints
0:19:00 all the time about the mosquitoes
0:19:02 and he on his own
0:19:03 decided one day to go
0:19:04 before he went to work
0:19:05 get in at 11 o’clock at night
0:19:07 and he bought a bunch of catfish
0:19:08 at the store
0:19:10 because there’s a bunch of ponds
0:19:11 around the business
0:19:11 and he figured
0:19:12 that’s where all the mosquitoes
0:19:13 are starting.
0:19:14 So the catfish will eat
0:19:17 the larva of the mosquitoes
0:19:18 and he’d solve the problem.
0:19:19 So he just on his own
0:19:21 decided to buy a bunch of catfish,
0:19:22 dumped them in the ponds
0:19:23 all around the hotel.
0:19:23 Well,
0:19:25 about four in the morning,
0:19:26 this engineer calls me,
0:19:26 grew up guy,
0:19:27 he says,
0:19:28 the raccoons
0:19:30 had a feeding frenzy
0:19:32 and ran through the hotel
0:19:33 because the doors were open
0:19:35 with a bunch of,
0:19:36 you know,
0:19:38 flying fish in their mouths
0:19:39 and fish everywhere
0:19:41 and Ludo said,
0:19:42 you got to fire that son of a bitch,
0:19:43 this goddamn idiot.
0:19:45 and I started laughing,
0:19:47 went up there the next morning,
0:19:47 met with him
0:19:48 and I said,
0:19:49 this is a magical thing.
0:19:50 You tried to solve
0:19:51 a goddamn problem
0:19:53 and we created the failure award
0:19:55 and I gave the biggest screw up
0:19:56 every single month
0:19:57 a bonus
0:19:58 and at the end of the year,
0:19:59 we’d put them all together,
0:20:00 January screw up,
0:20:01 February screw up
0:20:02 and we’d have the failure
0:20:03 of the year award
0:20:05 and did that for years
0:20:06 until my sister said,
0:20:06 we’ll call it
0:20:07 the magical moment award.
0:20:09 but it was about initiative,
0:20:10 taking initiative,
0:20:11 taking responsibility,
0:20:12 taking ownership,
0:20:14 trying new things,
0:20:15 seeing what works,
0:20:15 iteration,
0:20:17 entrepreneurial mindset.
0:20:18 It’s not linear.
0:20:20 It’s thinking creatively
0:20:21 outside the box.
0:20:22 It’s what a dyslexic
0:20:23 by definition has to do
0:20:25 and that’s what I thought
0:20:26 a successful business
0:20:26 needed to do
0:20:29 and it literally empowered,
0:20:30 our employees loved it
0:20:32 because they felt seen and heard.
0:20:33 And safe, I guess.
0:20:33 And safe
0:20:34 because they were like,
0:20:36 as long as they do it with,
0:20:36 you know,
0:20:38 no one’s jumping off cliffs here
0:20:38 we’re not encouraging,
0:20:39 you know,
0:20:40 recklessness,
0:20:41 but risk taking.
0:20:43 And it literally allowed
0:20:43 the business
0:20:44 not just to survive
0:20:46 but to start to thrive
0:20:47 in ways I could never have imagined.
0:20:49 I think that’s really important.
0:20:50 It’s just such an important lesson
0:20:51 to so many business owners,
0:20:52 especially in these changing times
0:20:53 where everything’s moving
0:20:54 so quickly in AI and technology
0:20:56 that most people
0:20:57 are incentivized
0:21:00 just to business as usual.
0:21:00 You know,
0:21:02 protect our position
0:21:03 if we’re successful
0:21:04 or, you know,
0:21:05 to prolong convention
0:21:06 or whatever that might mean
0:21:07 but businesses
0:21:07 that adopt that approach
0:21:09 clearly have an edge
0:21:10 in these rapidly changing times.
0:21:11 Yeah, no,
0:21:12 and look,
0:21:12 I mean,
0:21:13 back to just,
0:21:13 you know,
0:21:14 I remember
0:21:15 there was a book
0:21:15 Tom Peters wrote
0:21:17 called The Pursuit of Wow.
0:21:18 I mean,
0:21:19 if there was one book
0:21:21 that just hit me
0:21:22 in the core
0:21:23 that sort of expressed
0:21:25 everything I wanted to become,
0:21:26 he talked about
0:21:27 hire the smile,
0:21:27 train the skill,
0:21:29 about finding
0:21:31 these superstar leaders
0:21:32 and developing owners
0:21:34 with your leadership team
0:21:35 that they,
0:21:35 you know,
0:21:36 he talked about,
0:21:36 I remember
0:21:37 the Ritz-Carlton
0:21:37 at the time
0:21:40 gave literally cash
0:21:42 to the folks
0:21:42 that were cleaning
0:21:43 the rooms
0:21:44 and gave them
0:21:45 the ability
0:21:46 to use the cash
0:21:46 as needed
0:21:48 to solve a problem
0:21:49 for their customers.
0:21:50 They created ownership
0:21:52 with frontline employees
0:21:54 that were undervalued
0:21:54 or devalued.
0:21:55 He talked about,
0:21:56 I remember,
0:21:58 diversity as a business essential
0:22:00 with all the anti-woke,
0:22:01 anti-DEI stuff
0:22:02 we’re dealing with
0:22:02 in the United States of America.
0:22:03 I mean,
0:22:04 from a business perspective,
0:22:06 there’s a business imperative
0:22:08 to advance diversity.
0:22:09 But it was Peter’s
0:22:10 decades ago
0:22:11 that really created
0:22:12 that mindset for me
0:22:13 in the business,
0:22:14 diversity broadly defined
0:22:16 in every way,
0:22:16 shape, or form.
0:22:17 And so,
0:22:18 the business became
0:22:19 this sort of,
0:22:20 the pursuit of wow,
0:22:21 of awe,
0:22:22 of surprise,
0:22:23 iteration,
0:22:25 of daring,
0:22:26 energy.
0:22:27 So the core ideology
0:22:28 just kept growing
0:22:28 in that space.
0:22:29 Restaurants,
0:22:29 hotels,
0:22:30 wineries,
0:22:31 and audacious,
0:22:32 adventurous people
0:22:34 that wanted to sort of
0:22:35 build a brand,
0:22:35 build something
0:22:36 that was special.
0:22:37 It wasn’t about money.
0:22:38 It was about pursuit
0:22:39 of meaning and purpose,
0:22:39 moments.
0:22:41 So why did you leave that
0:22:41 and do politics?
0:22:42 I know.
0:22:45 There was a phone,
0:22:45 two things happened.
0:22:46 I got a phone call.
0:22:47 I was running the wine store,
0:22:48 closing it up,
0:22:49 doing bookkeeping,
0:22:49 accounting.
0:22:50 You know,
0:22:50 the warehouse
0:22:52 was in my apartment.
0:22:53 One night,
0:22:54 right before I’m closing up,
0:22:57 this guy runs in to the store
0:22:59 and a very nervous guy.
0:23:00 And he’s like,
0:23:01 can you help me?
0:23:02 What’s a good champagne?
0:23:02 Just,
0:23:03 I got to get a call.
0:23:03 He’s like,
0:23:03 thank you.
0:23:04 Put it away.
0:23:04 I’m like,
0:23:05 it’s good.
0:23:05 He goes,
0:23:06 can you wrap it?
0:23:06 I said,
0:23:06 yeah,
0:23:07 I got to wrap it.
0:23:07 He says,
0:23:08 thank you,
0:23:08 man.
0:23:09 About 30 minutes later,
0:23:10 the guy comes back.
0:23:10 I’m like,
0:23:11 oh,
0:23:11 damn.
0:23:12 Like,
0:23:13 I screwed up or something.
0:23:15 But he’s got this girl with him.
0:23:16 And he’s knocking on the wall
0:23:17 and I open the key back up.
0:23:18 He comes in.
0:23:18 He goes,
0:23:19 I just want to introduce you
0:23:19 to my fiance.
0:23:21 And I said,
0:23:22 wow.
0:23:22 He goes,
0:23:23 well,
0:23:24 your champagne,
0:23:25 I just asked her
0:23:26 to marry down the block
0:23:27 at the Palace of Fine Arts.
0:23:28 And we love the champagne.
0:23:29 And I just want to say,
0:23:30 thank you.
0:23:31 You were so nice to me.
0:23:33 I remember literally sitting there
0:23:35 crying after he left.
0:23:36 Like,
0:23:36 that’s everything.
0:23:37 This is like,
0:23:40 this is business,
0:23:40 man.
0:23:42 It’s not a transaction.
0:23:43 It’s relationships.
0:23:44 Talk about moments.
0:23:45 Magic,
0:23:45 man.
0:23:47 That’s it.
0:23:48 To your point,
0:23:48 I thought,
0:23:48 this is it.
0:23:49 This is my bliss.
0:23:51 I’m going to keep doing this forever.
0:23:52 And then I got a damn call
0:23:53 from the mayor of San Francisco.
0:23:55 Can I just ask you on that question?
0:23:56 When that guy came in
0:23:56 with his fiance,
0:23:59 why was it so meaningful to you?
0:24:00 I can literally still see
0:24:01 the emotion in your face.
0:24:02 some 20 years later.
0:24:05 Because what I did
0:24:05 had meaning.
0:24:07 It mattered.
0:24:08 In a way,
0:24:08 I never thought.
0:24:09 I thought it was a transaction.
0:24:11 I thought he was buying something.
0:24:12 I was selling something.
0:24:13 It wasn’t that,
0:24:13 man.
0:24:15 It was marking
0:24:17 a really important moment
0:24:18 in his life.
0:24:20 Business changed after that.
0:24:21 It wasn’t business.
0:24:22 It was just,
0:24:24 it was a different proposition.
0:24:25 And then you get a phone call.
0:24:26 And I get a phone call
0:24:28 and screwed everything up.
0:24:30 Willie Brown says,
0:24:30 hey,
0:24:30 you’ve been,
0:24:32 you just opened this store
0:24:34 and I’ve been reading
0:24:35 you were complaining
0:24:36 getting those permits.
0:24:37 It was taking too long.
0:24:38 He’s Willie Brown.
0:24:38 Willie Brown,
0:24:40 the mayor of San Francisco,
0:24:41 former speaker
0:24:42 of the California Assembly,
0:24:43 one of the most dynamic,
0:24:44 one of the most
0:24:45 extraordinary politicians
0:24:47 in California history,
0:24:48 I would argue,
0:24:49 American history.
0:24:50 And I don’t say that lightly.
0:24:52 Some of the world’s
0:24:53 great leaders
0:24:53 will identify
0:24:54 as Willie Brown
0:24:55 as one of the most
0:24:56 transformative political leaders.
0:24:58 And so there’s
0:24:59 a couple articles
0:25:00 in the paper
0:25:00 about me bitching
0:25:01 about permits
0:25:02 and parking or something.
0:25:04 And he calls me,
0:25:04 he goes,
0:25:06 it’s Willie Brown.
0:25:06 I’m like,
0:25:07 oh, Mr. Mayor.
0:25:07 He goes,
0:25:08 hey,
0:25:09 come on down.
0:25:10 Next Wednesday,
0:25:11 I’m going to put you
0:25:12 on the film commission.
0:25:12 I’m like,
0:25:13 this is amazing.
0:25:13 I’m going to be
0:25:14 on the film commission.
0:25:15 I’m 20-something years old,
0:25:16 got a wine store,
0:25:18 about to open a restaurant
0:25:19 that I was working on.
0:25:20 And now he’s put me
0:25:20 on the film commission.
0:25:21 I go down to City Hall
0:25:22 that next Wednesday.
0:25:24 It’s a group of 20 or 30 people.
0:25:26 He’s swearing a bunch of people
0:25:26 on the commissions.
0:25:27 And he says,
0:25:28 and Gavin Newsom,
0:25:28 you know,
0:25:30 opened a wine store
0:25:31 down the block,
0:25:31 blah, blah, blah.
0:25:33 Goes the new chair
0:25:34 of the parking
0:25:34 and traffic commission.
0:25:35 I’m like,
0:25:37 I thought I was going
0:25:38 on the film commission.
0:25:39 Literally didn’t tell me
0:25:40 or anyone.
0:25:41 I didn’t even know
0:25:41 what chair meant.
0:25:42 And all of a sudden,
0:25:44 26, 7 years old,
0:25:45 I’m now the president
0:25:47 of San Francisco’s
0:25:48 Parking and Traffic Commission.
0:25:50 He just randomly
0:25:51 put me in that position.
0:25:52 Inspiration,
0:25:53 desperation.
0:25:54 I don’t know
0:25:55 what the hell
0:25:55 I was doing.
0:25:57 And that was how
0:25:59 my political career began.
0:26:00 Literally that phone call,
0:26:01 that appointment,
0:26:03 not to film,
0:26:05 but parking and traffic.
0:26:07 And that marked
0:26:10 a pretty significant moment
0:26:11 in hindsight in my life.
0:26:12 And that was
0:26:13 a pivotal moment
0:26:15 in your trajectory
0:26:15 because you were
0:26:16 on course to continue
0:26:17 being an entrepreneur
0:26:18 probably for the rest
0:26:19 of your life.
0:26:19 Yeah, yeah.
0:26:21 It could have been somebody.
0:26:23 Jesus.
0:26:24 So give me the whistle stop
0:26:25 between that moment
0:26:26 when he places you
0:26:27 in this role
0:26:28 to here.
0:26:30 I know whistle stop
0:26:31 is a tough word to use
0:26:32 to describe that journey,
0:26:33 but what is the whistle stop?
0:26:33 Well, I just,
0:26:34 I mean,
0:26:35 I put my head down.
0:26:36 I learned everything I could
0:26:38 back to sort of the humility
0:26:39 of not knowing
0:26:39 what you don’t know
0:26:40 and recognizing,
0:26:41 you know,
0:26:42 success leaves clues
0:26:44 and you can learn
0:26:45 from everybody.
0:26:47 And I started listening,
0:26:47 learning from people,
0:26:48 absorbing.
0:26:50 And I applied myself
0:26:51 as parking traffic commissioner
0:26:51 so much so
0:26:52 nine months later
0:26:54 there was a vacancy
0:26:55 on our board of supervisors,
0:26:56 our city council.
0:26:58 And Willie Brown goes,
0:26:59 you know what?
0:27:00 You’ve been doing
0:27:01 a pretty decent job here, man.
0:27:02 I’m going to give you a shot.
0:27:04 So I was a relatively young guy.
0:27:06 Now is the entrepreneur
0:27:08 business person
0:27:09 on our city council
0:27:10 slash board of supervisors.
0:27:12 And I just hit the ground running.
0:27:14 I opened,
0:27:15 I by that time
0:27:16 opened a few extra businesses.
0:27:18 It was a part-time job,
0:27:20 but I started to apply myself
0:27:21 a little bit more full-time.
0:27:22 Had to put together
0:27:23 a management group
0:27:24 to start managing the business
0:27:26 and started applying myself more
0:27:27 as a supervisor.
0:27:29 Spent almost seven,
0:27:30 eight years doing that.
0:27:32 And I was a relatively young guy,
0:27:33 33, four.
0:27:34 And Willie Brown
0:27:35 was termed out as mayor
0:27:36 and there was an open
0:27:38 with the mayor’s seat.
0:27:39 And I think at 33,
0:27:39 I announced,
0:27:41 why the hell not?
0:27:42 You know,
0:27:43 give it a shot.
0:27:44 Miss 100% of shots
0:27:44 you don’t take.
0:27:46 And it was,
0:27:46 I think,
0:27:47 pulling third or fourth
0:27:49 and decided to go for it
0:27:50 and ran for mayor
0:27:51 of San Francisco.
0:27:52 You became mayor
0:27:53 of San Francisco.
0:27:54 You had a big impact
0:27:56 while you were mayor
0:27:56 of San Francisco.
0:27:57 One of the things
0:27:58 people remember you a lot for
0:28:00 is your attitude
0:28:01 towards same-sex couples
0:28:04 and the Defense of Marriage Act
0:28:05 where you took a quite
0:28:06 controversial stance
0:28:07 at the time
0:28:08 by enabling,
0:28:10 I believe it was,
0:28:11 same-sex couples
0:28:12 in the state
0:28:13 to get their marriage licenses?
0:28:14 Well,
0:28:14 it was,
0:28:15 yeah,
0:28:17 it was 2004
0:28:18 and my party,
0:28:19 the Democratic Party
0:28:20 was not,
0:28:22 people were not
0:28:23 enthusiastic,
0:28:25 weren’t even promoting,
0:28:25 in fact,
0:28:26 they were almost universally
0:28:27 opposed to
0:28:28 same-sex marriage.
0:28:29 And I had an experience
0:28:30 in Washington, D.C.
0:28:31 Nancy Pelosi,
0:28:32 the Speaker of the House,
0:28:33 invited me as a new mayor
0:28:35 to listen to George Bush
0:28:36 give his final
0:28:37 State of the Union speech.
0:28:38 And I was there
0:28:40 with an extra ticket,
0:28:40 her husband’s ticket,
0:28:41 and I was up there
0:28:42 in the rafters
0:28:43 listening to George Bush
0:28:44 give his speech.
0:28:45 And in the speech,
0:28:46 he’s talking about Iraq war,
0:28:47 he’s talking about
0:28:48 a lot of interesting things.
0:28:50 And he ends with,
0:28:51 it’s time for a constitutional amendment
0:28:53 to ban same-sex marriage.
0:28:54 And everyone starts applauding.
0:28:55 And the people around me
0:28:56 are applauding.
0:28:56 I’m like,
0:28:57 Jesus.
0:28:59 I walked back out
0:29:01 and you had to put your cell phones,
0:29:02 early cell phone days.
0:29:04 And we’re all in line
0:29:05 waiting to get our cell phones back.
0:29:07 And I remember the couple
0:29:07 right next to me
0:29:09 as I’m waiting in line
0:29:10 after the speech goes,
0:29:11 that was a hell of a speech.
0:29:12 the president gave.
0:29:14 I’m so sick and tired.
0:29:14 I’ll never forget
0:29:15 what these guys said.
0:29:16 I’m so sick and tired
0:29:18 of the homosexual agenda.
0:29:19 And I’m like,
0:29:20 and I literally turned
0:29:21 homosexual agenda.
0:29:21 It was pejorative.
0:29:23 And all I thought about
0:29:23 is, man,
0:29:24 I want to introduce myself
0:29:25 as mayor of San Francisco.
0:29:27 I didn’t say a word.
0:29:28 I didn’t even thought
0:29:29 about marriage equality.
0:29:30 When I ran for mayor,
0:29:31 no one asked me about it.
0:29:32 They were talking
0:29:33 about domestic partnerships.
0:29:35 It was literally that moment
0:29:38 that I walked outside,
0:29:39 used that cell phone,
0:29:40 called my chief of staff,
0:29:41 and said,
0:29:42 we need to do something about it.
0:29:43 He goes,
0:29:43 well, what do you mean?
0:29:44 And I said,
0:29:45 well, I’m going to come back
0:29:45 tomorrow, man.
0:29:47 Let’s do something.
0:29:48 So I just got elected mayor
0:29:51 and made the decision then.
0:29:53 And it unfolded
0:29:53 a few weeks later
0:29:55 to start marrying
0:29:55 same-sex couples.
0:29:56 And we married
0:29:57 Phyllis Lyon and Del Martin.
0:29:58 They’d been together
0:29:58 almost 50 years.
0:29:59 You talk about faith,
0:30:00 love, and devotion,
0:30:01 constancy,
0:30:02 what marriage should be about.
0:30:03 They were denied
0:30:04 the ability to marry
0:30:05 for only one reason.
0:30:06 They were a same-sex couple.
0:30:07 And we decided
0:30:09 to test the law
0:30:11 and was told
0:30:13 that people found out
0:30:15 and they were not going
0:30:16 to allow us
0:30:17 to move forward
0:30:18 with this marriage.
0:30:19 We were going to do
0:30:20 a simple ceremonial marriage
0:30:22 and then file a lawsuit.
0:30:23 Courts opened
0:30:24 at 9 o’clock.
0:30:24 They were going to do
0:30:25 a temporary restraining order.
0:30:27 I realized I was mayor.
0:30:29 I could open City Hall earlier.
0:30:31 So we opened City Hall
0:30:31 at 8.
0:30:34 We married Phyllis and Lyon,
0:30:36 Phyllis and Lyon,
0:30:38 and Del, rather.
0:30:39 And at 9 o’clock,
0:30:40 the courts opened
0:30:41 and we waited
0:30:42 for the decision
0:30:43 and the judge said
0:30:44 there’s no irreparable harm.
0:30:46 There’s no reason
0:30:47 to have a temporary restraining order,
0:30:48 which meant
0:30:50 that we could keep
0:30:51 marrying same-sex couples,
0:30:52 which was not
0:30:54 what we had imagined.
0:30:56 Fast forward
0:30:57 what we call
0:30:59 the winter of love
0:31:00 in San Francisco.
0:31:01 Not the summer of love.
0:31:03 February 2004,
0:31:05 4,036 couples
0:31:06 from 46 states
0:31:07 in eight countries
0:31:08 came to San Francisco
0:31:10 to live their lives
0:31:10 out loud
0:31:12 to say I do
0:31:14 in this magical experience
0:31:15 that just
0:31:17 shook me to the core
0:31:19 and changed
0:31:21 just my relationship
0:31:22 to my party.
0:31:24 They were pissed.
0:31:26 They were furious.
0:31:27 The Democratic Party.
0:31:27 Yes.
0:31:29 And I got an earfall
0:31:30 from all of them.
0:31:32 People I adored,
0:31:32 revered,
0:31:33 the same people,
0:31:34 the same people
0:31:34 who said,
0:31:35 all of them.
0:31:35 I mean,
0:31:37 this is the road advice
0:31:37 that everyone goes,
0:31:38 whatever you do,
0:31:39 just do the right thing.
0:31:40 Do what you think is right.
0:31:41 I remember that’s what they,
0:31:42 you know,
0:31:43 hey, young man,
0:31:44 congrats on being married.
0:31:45 Just do what you think is right.
0:31:47 You do what you think is right.
0:31:47 How the hell?
0:31:48 Who the hell are you?
0:31:49 I mean,
0:31:49 I remember those.
0:31:51 Who the hell are you
0:31:52 to do what you just did?
0:31:55 And it sort of shook
0:31:56 my confidence
0:31:58 in this whole racket
0:31:59 of politics.
0:31:59 Like,
0:32:00 what am I doing?
0:32:01 What did I just do?
0:32:03 But it was,
0:32:05 it was a hell of a first impression
0:32:06 as mayor
0:32:08 to do that.
0:32:09 And that sort of started
0:32:10 my political life.
0:32:11 When I overlap the dates here,
0:32:14 you win your mayoral race
0:32:15 in 2003.
0:32:18 Your mother was getting,
0:32:19 was sick in the years,
0:32:20 in the lead up to that.
0:32:21 She was diagnosed
0:32:21 with breast cancer.
0:32:22 Yep.
0:32:23 So you’re contending
0:32:25 with the woman in your life
0:32:26 who’s clearly had
0:32:27 the most impactful role
0:32:28 on shaping who you are
0:32:29 and being there for you
0:32:30 when the odds were against you
0:32:31 and when no one else was.
0:32:33 In the lead up,
0:32:34 and as your sort of
0:32:34 political career
0:32:35 starts to accelerate,
0:32:37 she is suffering
0:32:38 with breast cancer.
0:32:38 Yep.
0:32:40 And also suffering
0:32:41 with her son being in politics.
0:32:42 She did not want me
0:32:43 to go in politics.
0:32:43 In fact,
0:32:46 the biggest
0:32:49 regret she had
0:32:50 is that I was
0:32:51 walking down the path
0:32:52 that my father
0:32:53 was interested in
0:32:54 that led to their divorce
0:32:55 in the first place.
0:32:57 He pursued politics
0:32:58 and lost in two elections
0:32:59 for state senate
0:33:00 and for county supervisor,
0:33:01 ironically,
0:33:02 the seat that I held.
0:33:03 Lost both races,
0:33:04 was in debt,
0:33:06 was humiliated,
0:33:07 defeated,
0:33:08 said he had a breakdown,
0:33:09 and left.
0:33:11 That’s when they got divorced
0:33:13 and she saw me
0:33:14 walking down his path
0:33:16 and she loved
0:33:17 seeing me in business.
0:33:19 She ended up working for me
0:33:19 as our bookkeeper
0:33:21 and she saw my passion
0:33:22 in the business.
0:33:22 She said,
0:33:23 why the hell
0:33:24 are you getting in politics?
0:33:25 Don’t do this to yourself.
0:33:27 And she literally,
0:33:28 near her deathbed,
0:33:29 said,
0:33:30 just please don’t do this.
0:33:31 Don’t keep doing this.
0:33:33 She was really upset
0:33:34 that I ran from there.
0:33:37 something I think about,
0:33:38 you know,
0:33:39 there are days
0:33:39 where I’m like,
0:33:40 I go,
0:33:41 she told me so.
0:33:42 You know,
0:33:43 when you’re sitting there
0:33:44 facing a recall,
0:33:45 you’re like,
0:33:45 told you so.
0:33:47 A recall for anyone
0:33:48 that doesn’t know is?
0:33:48 No,
0:33:48 they just,
0:33:49 you know,
0:33:49 in the middle of,
0:33:49 you know,
0:33:50 you get a four-year term
0:33:51 and two years later,
0:33:52 they say,
0:33:52 you,
0:33:53 and they get a petition
0:33:54 and try to get rid of you.
0:33:56 And I faced that
0:33:57 just second time
0:33:57 in a half century
0:33:58 in California.
0:34:00 I defeated it overwhelmingly.
0:34:02 But that was a hell of a thing
0:34:02 to experience
0:34:04 and to see the nationalization
0:34:05 of that recall.
0:34:05 I mean,
0:34:06 the entire Republican Party
0:34:08 came out to try
0:34:09 to take me out politically.
0:34:10 And you think about
0:34:11 what your mom said,
0:34:11 you’re like,
0:34:13 she may have been right.
0:34:15 When did you realize
0:34:15 that your mother
0:34:16 wasn’t going to make it
0:34:18 with her breast cancer?
0:34:21 She went through,
0:34:22 so often is the case,
0:34:23 she fought back,
0:34:24 it was in remission,
0:34:25 and then boom,
0:34:26 it hit again
0:34:27 and it metastized
0:34:28 and it was,
0:34:29 and she did,
0:34:29 it was,
0:34:30 I’ll tell you,
0:34:31 this I will never,
0:34:32 ever,
0:34:32 ever,
0:34:33 ever recommend for anyone
0:34:34 and this is just
0:34:35 my own personal experience.
0:34:37 She called me,
0:34:38 left a voice message.
0:34:40 Imagine getting
0:34:41 this voice message.
0:34:43 I was very busy
0:34:45 doing all this stuff
0:34:46 and obviously
0:34:47 not attentive enough
0:34:47 to her
0:34:48 and she was making
0:34:48 the point.
0:34:49 She goes,
0:34:49 hi honey,
0:34:50 it’s your mother.
0:34:51 I know you haven’t
0:34:52 seen me in a while
0:34:53 but next Thursday
0:34:55 I won’t be around
0:34:56 so you may want
0:34:57 to come next Wednesday
0:34:58 because it will be
0:34:58 my last day.
0:35:01 Literally left a voicemail
0:35:01 like that.
0:35:03 I called my sister,
0:35:03 I’m like,
0:35:03 what the hell is this?
0:35:04 She goes,
0:35:05 she’s crying
0:35:05 and she said
0:35:06 she just told me
0:35:07 she’s going to do
0:35:08 an assisted suicide
0:35:09 because it’s so bad.
0:35:11 She left a voicemail
0:35:13 and so that next week
0:35:14 I was there
0:35:15 and my sister and I
0:35:16 were in her room,
0:35:18 doctor comes in,
0:35:19 gives her some
0:35:20 what turned out
0:35:21 to be Oxycontin.
0:35:22 I remember like early on
0:35:23 like what are these pills?
0:35:24 She had to take those
0:35:25 an hour before he got there.
0:35:26 She takes them.
0:35:29 God is my,
0:35:29 we’re going through
0:35:31 fucking photos like this,
0:35:31 man.
0:35:32 That’s all she wanted to see.
0:35:34 All the old photos
0:35:35 of us growing up
0:35:35 and we’re sitting there
0:35:37 on my sister on the left,
0:35:38 I’m on the right.
0:35:39 My mom there
0:35:40 took these pills
0:35:41 waiting for the doctor
0:35:43 and she’s going through
0:35:44 all these old photo albums
0:35:45 of us growing up
0:35:47 talking about these moments.
0:35:47 Yeah.
0:35:49 Come on, man.
0:35:50 So,
0:35:53 yeah.
0:35:54 And,
0:35:54 uh,
0:35:55 but
0:35:57 wanted to be there for her.
0:35:59 Doctor comes in
0:35:59 and ministers
0:36:02 and she starts gasping.
0:36:03 My sister runs out.
0:36:04 The doctor had already left
0:36:05 and I was like,
0:36:06 I,
0:36:07 she’s gasping for air
0:36:08 and I’m just
0:36:09 sitting there
0:36:12 and holding her hand
0:36:12 and she’s,
0:36:14 and her last breath
0:36:15 and,
0:36:15 uh,
0:36:16 I just sat there
0:36:18 and my sister,
0:36:18 no one
0:36:19 walked in,
0:36:20 I felt like for a day,
0:36:21 it felt like hours
0:36:22 but it was just probably
0:36:22 10 minutes
0:36:24 before someone finally came in
0:36:26 just sitting there
0:36:27 with my mother
0:36:27 who passed away
0:36:28 and,
0:36:29 uh,
0:36:30 not realizing
0:36:31 that moment
0:36:32 what it represented,
0:36:33 what it ultimately meant.
0:36:34 Uh,
0:36:36 I regret
0:36:37 that was hard.
0:36:37 I don’t,
0:36:38 being there for
0:36:39 assisted suicide.
0:36:40 Uh,
0:36:41 by the way,
0:36:41 it’s proud,
0:36:42 we changed the law
0:36:43 in California.
0:36:44 That was probably
0:36:45 done illegally.
0:36:46 I don’t even want to know
0:36:46 and if you want to
0:36:47 come after me,
0:36:48 come after me.
0:36:49 Um,
0:36:50 she needed to do it.
0:36:51 She was in so much pain,
0:36:51 suffering,
0:36:52 now it’s legal to do that
0:36:53 but it wasn’t at the time
0:36:54 when she did it.
0:36:56 Um,
0:36:56 and,
0:36:56 um,
0:36:57 so that was,
0:36:58 uh,
0:36:59 that was a moment
0:37:00 and,
0:37:00 um,
0:37:01 you know,
0:37:01 that was,
0:37:02 you know,
0:37:04 just,
0:37:04 became mayor.
0:37:05 It was back
0:37:06 to just making
0:37:07 stupid mistakes,
0:37:07 man.
0:37:07 You know,
0:37:08 you’re a brand new mayor.
0:37:10 You’re overwhelmed.
0:37:10 You’re trying to figure
0:37:11 yourself out.
0:37:12 You lose your mom.
0:37:13 No excuse.
0:37:14 Um,
0:37:15 it wasn’t a marriage
0:37:16 that was going south.
0:37:17 You know,
0:37:17 it was a,
0:37:18 it was,
0:37:19 you know.
0:37:20 What did she say to you
0:37:20 when she,
0:37:22 I had no idea
0:37:23 that you sat there
0:37:24 as she was administered
0:37:25 the drugs
0:37:26 that took her life.
0:37:28 what were those conversations?
0:37:29 What do you say
0:37:29 to someone
0:37:30 in such a situation
0:37:31 where it’s the last
0:37:32 conversations you’re having?
0:37:34 It was,
0:37:34 um,
0:37:35 you know,
0:37:35 you,
0:37:36 you say the perfunctory
0:37:37 things,
0:37:37 you know,
0:37:38 just know how much
0:37:39 you meant to me,
0:37:40 how much I love you,
0:37:41 and she,
0:37:42 um,
0:37:43 she,
0:37:44 all she cared about
0:37:46 is just don’t forget me.
0:37:47 She said that.
0:37:48 That was the last word
0:37:49 she said.
0:37:50 God is my witness.
0:37:52 Don’t forget me.
0:37:52 God.
0:37:54 And,
0:37:54 uh,
0:37:56 and one of the things
0:37:56 I’m most proud of,
0:37:57 my sister,
0:37:59 we started through
0:37:59 our Plump Jack.
0:38:00 We started a foundation.
0:38:02 Um,
0:38:03 so every year
0:38:04 we raise money
0:38:05 to cancer research
0:38:06 in my mom’s name.
0:38:07 And,
0:38:07 uh,
0:38:09 and we’ve never forgotten her.
0:38:10 And,
0:38:10 uh,
0:38:12 but she was someone
0:38:13 that could have easily
0:38:13 been forgotten,
0:38:14 man.
0:38:15 Um,
0:38:15 she’s just,
0:38:15 you know,
0:38:16 sacrificed everything
0:38:17 for two kids.
0:38:18 She,
0:38:19 you know,
0:38:20 she left us
0:38:21 her
0:38:23 character experience,
0:38:23 no money,
0:38:24 nothing.
0:38:24 I mean,
0:38:24 she was just,
0:38:26 she struggled her own life
0:38:27 and,
0:38:27 uh,
0:38:28 just gave it all to us.
0:38:29 And,
0:38:29 uh,
0:38:30 so,
0:38:31 you know,
0:38:31 those are,
0:38:32 and we all have people
0:38:33 in our lives like that.
0:38:34 What a gift.
0:38:34 And,
0:38:34 uh,
0:38:35 you know,
0:38:35 I was blessed.
0:38:37 Were there any words unsaid?
0:38:38 Sometimes once people
0:38:39 have moved on
0:38:39 and you mature
0:38:40 as an adult
0:38:41 and a man,
0:38:41 you,
0:38:42 you see things differently
0:38:43 and you,
0:38:45 I mentioned the earlier
0:38:46 being perhaps
0:38:47 way too candid.
0:38:47 I imagine
0:38:49 after this is over,
0:38:49 my folks go,
0:38:50 what the hell were you,
0:38:51 you know,
0:38:51 who cares?
0:38:52 Life’s too short.
0:38:53 Um,
0:38:54 but when I said,
0:38:54 you know,
0:38:55 when she talked about
0:38:56 being average,
0:38:56 I,
0:38:57 I didn’t confront her
0:38:57 on that.
0:38:59 That’s just,
0:39:00 that was for me
0:39:02 perhaps more than her.
0:39:03 It wasn’t about me
0:39:05 this moment.
0:39:06 It was about just,
0:39:06 you know,
0:39:08 it was so important
0:39:09 for her to walk through
0:39:10 all these memories.
0:39:11 And again,
0:39:12 that’s what it’s about,
0:39:12 man.
0:39:13 It’s memories,
0:39:14 moments.
0:39:16 It’s about nothing else.
0:39:17 When you’re later,
0:39:19 you win the race
0:39:20 to become governor
0:39:21 of San Francisco.
0:39:22 Do you think about
0:39:25 her?
0:39:25 Do you think,
0:39:26 do you wish she
0:39:27 could have seen?
0:39:27 Yeah.
0:39:28 I,
0:39:29 I wish she could see
0:39:30 my four kids.
0:39:31 Yeah.
0:39:32 Yeah,
0:39:33 yeah,
0:39:33 yeah.
0:39:33 Come on.
0:39:35 I got sworn in
0:39:35 as governor
0:39:36 of California
0:39:39 and my wife’s there
0:39:40 and we got a three-year-old.
0:39:42 He’s got his pacifier
0:39:43 and he’s got his blanket
0:39:44 and he,
0:39:45 in the middle of my speech,
0:39:47 runs up.
0:39:49 I’m giving the speech,
0:39:50 stressed out again.
0:39:51 I don’t read speeches
0:39:52 so it was a read,
0:39:53 I had to read.
0:39:54 So I’m like,
0:39:55 I can’t look
0:39:55 because I’m going to
0:39:56 lose my sight
0:39:56 on the,
0:39:57 on the teleprompter.
0:39:59 And my son runs up.
0:40:00 My wife was nervous
0:40:01 to run up on stage
0:40:02 because it was like,
0:40:03 this is a big damn deal.
0:40:05 And he comes right up,
0:40:06 grabs me
0:40:09 and everyone kind of like
0:40:10 is moving around
0:40:10 the audience.
0:40:10 I’m like,
0:40:11 what do I do?
0:40:13 And I like just instinctually
0:40:13 lifted him
0:40:15 and he put his head
0:40:16 right on the side
0:40:17 and started to fall asleep.
0:40:19 And I read the speech
0:40:21 with my son.
0:40:22 No one remembers
0:40:23 a damn word I said.
0:40:24 I don’t remember a word.
0:40:25 Everyone remembers
0:40:27 what it felt like.
0:40:28 And all I thought about
0:40:29 at that moment,
0:40:31 if my mom was around
0:40:31 to see that,
0:40:34 it wasn’t the governor.
0:40:35 it was,
0:40:37 it was the parent.
0:40:38 And,
0:40:40 yeah,
0:40:40 sorry,
0:40:40 ma’am.
0:40:42 It’s unbecoming.
0:40:43 Forgive me,
0:40:44 but that,
0:40:45 that,
0:40:46 I wish,
0:40:47 I wish she was around
0:40:47 for them.
0:40:48 Why?
0:40:50 Because it’s,
0:40:51 well,
0:40:52 I wish I could thank her
0:40:55 for being an extraordinary parent.
0:40:56 I never did.
0:40:57 I told you,
0:40:57 I took her for granted.
0:40:59 I never knew how hard it was
0:41:00 until I had my own kids,
0:41:00 but I,
0:41:02 I think she’d be so proud
0:41:03 of,
0:41:03 of,
0:41:04 of,
0:41:05 of our,
0:41:06 you know,
0:41:08 nine-year-old Dutch,
0:41:10 15-year-old Montana.
0:41:12 I think she’d be proud of me
0:41:13 in that respect.
0:41:15 I think she wanted me to be happy.
0:41:17 She wanted me to be a good husband.
0:41:19 I got this incredible rock star wife,
0:41:20 Jennifer.
0:41:21 I got these four
0:41:22 unbelievable kids,
0:41:23 man,
0:41:24 just filled me with joy.
0:41:27 I struggled to be a better parent,
0:41:28 husband,
0:41:29 politics,
0:41:30 you know,
0:41:33 but that’s all she wanted for me.
0:41:34 When you’re in the public eye,
0:41:37 as I guess I kind of am now
0:41:38 because people watch me a lot.
0:41:39 A good time, man.
0:41:41 There’s always this balance
0:41:42 between what people see,
0:41:44 which is a very two-dimensional thing,
0:41:45 which is what people see of me,
0:41:46 and then there’s the,
0:41:47 the,
0:41:48 the imperfect,
0:41:49 messy home life,
0:41:50 which I contend with every single day.
0:41:50 Like,
0:41:52 even on the way here this morning,
0:41:52 I’m like,
0:41:54 I’m going to be late for Gavin Newsom
0:41:56 because my girlfriend’s
0:41:57 having like period cramps
0:41:57 and I’m like,
0:41:58 I don’t want to leave my girlfriend,
0:42:00 but I need to go.
0:42:00 I’m going to be late
0:42:01 and I’m like trying to,
0:42:01 you know,
0:42:03 and then we had the alarms
0:42:03 going off in the house
0:42:06 and then all the lights flickered
0:42:06 because we just moved in,
0:42:07 as you know,
0:42:07 and then the,
0:42:09 just craziness.
0:42:10 And then you look at my phone
0:42:11 and there’s business problems
0:42:11 and then there’s my,
0:42:13 my family problems
0:42:13 that are going on
0:42:14 and then I come here
0:42:17 and I interview you.
0:42:18 I’m sorry.
0:42:20 I feel like I got in your way.
0:42:20 No, no, no, no.
0:42:21 But obviously it’s a great,
0:42:22 it’s a tremendous honor,
0:42:22 as you know,
0:42:23 but it’s just,
0:42:24 I say that because
0:42:26 there is a behind the scenes
0:42:27 and the behind the scenes
0:42:28 is not as perfect
0:42:28 as the exterior.
0:42:29 Oh, no, man.
0:42:30 You’re alluding to
0:42:31 the season of your life
0:42:33 being filled with imperfection.
0:42:33 Yeah.
0:42:34 Tell me about
0:42:35 the human imperfection
0:42:37 that was taking place
0:42:38 behind the scenes
0:42:38 as you were
0:42:40 excelling professionally.
0:42:41 I think there was
0:42:43 a magazine
0:42:45 The Economist
0:42:47 did a headline
0:42:47 that said,
0:42:48 young man in a hurry,
0:42:49 he wants to be governor
0:42:51 seriously.
0:42:52 And it wasn’t question mark,
0:42:52 it was more,
0:42:54 there we are,
0:42:55 it was more like,
0:42:56 like he’s serious,
0:42:57 he actually thinks
0:42:58 he could be governor.
0:42:59 It was kind of a snarky
0:43:00 headline piece.
0:43:01 But the headline
0:43:02 struck me,
0:43:03 young man in a hurry.
0:43:05 That’s who I was.
0:43:06 I was the entrepreneur,
0:43:11 just trying to make things happen,
0:43:12 trying new things,
0:43:13 seeing what works,
0:43:15 having a little bit more success
0:43:16 than failure,
0:43:18 learning from mistakes,
0:43:19 moving on,
0:43:21 move pretty quickly,
0:43:23 relatively young age.
0:43:23 I mean,
0:43:23 I was, I think,
0:43:24 one of the youngest mayors
0:43:25 in San Francisco history,
0:43:27 you know,
0:43:27 in my 30s.
0:43:29 And, you know,
0:43:30 losing my mom,
0:43:32 a relationship with my first wife,
0:43:35 it ended extraordinarily well.
0:43:36 She’s, you know,
0:43:36 I have nothing,
0:43:38 negative to say,
0:43:38 et cetera,
0:43:38 but it ended.
0:43:40 That was embarrassing.
0:43:40 You know,
0:43:42 it’s in the public.
0:43:43 Everything’s in the public.
0:43:44 I’m growing up in the public.
0:43:45 I’m growing up with this,
0:43:46 just bright lights.
0:43:47 How did you fuck up?
0:43:48 Yeah, I just,
0:43:50 I just,
0:43:51 I got,
0:43:52 I didn’t,
0:43:54 I wasn’t situationally aware.
0:43:55 I wasn’t emotionally
0:43:57 mature in terms of,
0:43:59 I remember a good friend of mine,
0:43:59 Mimi Silver,
0:44:01 who’s just a rock star,
0:44:01 got my,
0:44:02 just,
0:44:03 just got my act.
0:44:03 She,
0:44:05 she is the one
0:44:05 who got me
0:44:06 to get my act together.
0:44:08 She goes,
0:44:09 I said,
0:44:10 she goes,
0:44:11 you’re the mayor
0:44:12 in San Francisco.
0:44:13 I said,
0:44:13 yeah,
0:44:14 I know.
0:44:14 She goes,
0:44:14 well,
0:44:15 then start acting like it.
0:44:16 I said,
0:44:16 what are you talking about?
0:44:17 I said,
0:44:17 I said,
0:44:18 when I go in her,
0:44:20 I don’t need to be in the front row.
0:44:20 She goes,
0:44:21 you need to be there.
0:44:21 I said,
0:44:22 I don’t need to,
0:44:23 I don’t like being in the front row.
0:44:23 I don’t like,
0:44:24 I don’t need to be right.
0:44:25 She says,
0:44:25 the fucking mayor
0:44:28 and you’ll be in the front row
0:44:29 and you’ll have people watch you
0:44:30 in the front row
0:44:31 because that’s what they want
0:44:31 from their mayor.
0:44:31 And I’m like,
0:44:33 I remember saying this.
0:44:37 I said,
0:44:37 well,
0:44:37 no,
0:44:38 I don’t need that.
0:44:39 I don’t need to,
0:44:40 I like the job.
0:44:41 I don’t,
0:44:42 that’s not part of the job.
0:44:42 That’s the pad.
0:44:44 That’s like the press conference side.
0:44:44 I’d like,
0:44:44 I don’t,
0:44:46 and it was such a,
0:44:48 she literally had such a,
0:44:49 I remember that,
0:44:51 I remember sitting there
0:44:51 with dinner with her
0:44:53 at Delancey Street
0:44:54 when she said that to me
0:44:55 and it sort of hit me
0:44:56 in the core.
0:44:57 There was,
0:44:58 there was a lack of maturity
0:45:01 that I was just the entrepreneur
0:45:03 that happened to be mayor.
0:45:05 And I,
0:45:07 this is ironic,
0:45:08 based on our conversation,
0:45:09 needed to play the role
0:45:12 a little bit more than I was.
0:45:14 And I needed to mature
0:45:16 and I needed to get my act together.
0:45:17 And I,
0:45:17 you know,
0:45:18 and that,
0:45:19 I went through a process.
0:45:20 There was a couple years there,
0:45:21 a year where,
0:45:22 you know,
0:45:23 a lot of things happened
0:45:23 all at once.
0:45:25 and I was able
0:45:25 to get through it,
0:45:27 get reelected.
0:45:27 What were those things
0:45:28 that happened all at once?
0:45:29 Well,
0:45:29 I mean,
0:45:30 divorce,
0:45:31 you lose your mom,
0:45:31 divorce,
0:45:34 dealing with a new job,
0:45:35 dealing with high profile decisions
0:45:37 that became very national.
0:45:37 All of a sudden,
0:45:38 I’m,
0:45:39 you know,
0:45:40 punching above my weight
0:45:41 as a young elected official
0:45:42 in ways that I,
0:45:43 not many people
0:45:45 didn’t necessarily imagine.
0:45:47 Marriage quality issues
0:45:47 being one of them,
0:45:49 other things that I was involved in.
0:45:51 To your point about drinking
0:45:52 a little too much.
0:45:54 And after the divorce,
0:45:55 making some stupid mistakes
0:45:57 that I owned up to
0:45:58 and regret
0:46:00 and having to work
0:46:01 through all that,
0:46:01 I mean,
0:46:01 these are,
0:46:02 you know,
0:46:03 it’s around this time,
0:46:04 you know,
0:46:04 and,
0:46:06 you know,
0:46:07 what I could tell this kid.
0:46:08 What would you tell him?
0:46:09 Get your shit together.
0:46:11 You’re referring to
0:46:12 an extramarital affair
0:46:13 which you owned up to.
0:46:13 Yeah,
0:46:14 I wasn’t married,
0:46:15 but she was.
0:46:17 And it’s funny,
0:46:20 I’ve got a little memoir
0:46:21 that I’m putting out,
0:46:22 ironically called
0:46:23 Young Man in a Hurry
0:46:23 next year.
0:46:24 I love the title.
0:46:25 Relate as well.
0:46:28 That I’m very,
0:46:28 you know,
0:46:30 I reflect on that
0:46:31 and dive deeper
0:46:32 in a very self-critical way
0:46:33 and I hope very honest way.
0:46:34 And I hope people
0:46:35 can appreciate that.
0:46:36 I think people will
0:46:37 because I think
0:46:38 every normal human being
0:46:39 understands that
0:46:40 they too are imperfect
0:46:41 and especially when
0:46:43 life takes hold
0:46:44 and you’re growing
0:46:45 and you’re learning,
0:46:46 we all make mistakes.
0:46:47 I’ve made mistakes
0:46:48 and I expect to make a lot more.
0:46:48 Yeah.
0:46:49 But I think it’s in the admittance
0:46:50 of those mistakes
0:46:51 and acknowledging them
0:46:53 that that’s where we,
0:46:54 that’s where we find out
0:46:55 who we actually are.
0:46:56 Yeah.
0:46:57 You know?
0:46:58 And humiliated.
0:46:59 Humiliated.
0:47:01 I had no knowledge
0:47:02 of any of this stuff.
0:47:03 But so when you say humiliated,
0:47:04 I just humiliated.
0:47:05 My dad,
0:47:06 he said something
0:47:07 and I’ll tell you,
0:47:08 it carried forward with me.
0:47:09 He told me at the time
0:47:11 he was so disappointing to me.
0:47:12 And he said,
0:47:13 you go home with the one
0:47:14 who brought you to the dance.
0:47:16 Fuck.
0:47:18 And that was the impact
0:47:20 I had on one of my friends
0:47:21 that I, you know,
0:47:23 because of that very,
0:47:24 and I don’t know,
0:47:25 it’s not a way,
0:47:25 it’s just like the shortest,
0:47:27 it wasn’t even a relationship,
0:47:27 it was like just,
0:47:29 just some stupid stuff.
0:47:32 And I’ve just tried to,
0:47:32 you know,
0:47:34 the fact that we’re friends today
0:47:35 is like really important to me,
0:47:36 like one of the most important things,
0:47:38 like to sort of reconcile.
0:47:41 And that’s been really profoundly important
0:47:43 as part of the journey.
0:47:44 But, you know,
0:47:45 I let him down.
0:47:47 I embarrassed my dad.
0:47:48 I embarrassed myself.
0:47:50 I wasn’t myself.
0:47:53 And I had to get my shit together
0:47:54 and did.
0:47:56 Just a drop of the dime.
0:47:56 I mean,
0:47:57 back to just Mimi Silbert,
0:47:59 just a rock star.
0:48:00 And she told me,
0:48:00 you know,
0:48:01 I remember she said,
0:48:03 you’re coming over to see me tonight
0:48:04 and we’re going to fix this.
0:48:07 I’ve built companies from scratch
0:48:08 and backed many more.
0:48:09 And there’s a blind spot
0:48:10 that I keep seeing
0:48:11 in early stage founders.
0:48:13 They spend very little time
0:48:14 thinking about HR.
0:48:16 And it’s not because they’re reckless
0:48:16 or they don’t care.
0:48:18 It’s because they’re obsessed
0:48:20 with building their companies.
0:48:21 And I can’t fault them for that.
0:48:21 At that stage,
0:48:22 you’re thinking about the product,
0:48:24 how to attract new customers,
0:48:25 how to grow your team,
0:48:26 really how to survive.
0:48:28 And HR slips down the list
0:48:29 because it doesn’t feel urgent.
0:48:31 But sooner or later,
0:48:31 it is.
0:48:33 And when things get messy,
0:48:34 tools like our sponsor today,
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0:48:39 Something goes sideways
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0:48:41 you did not see coming.
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0:49:14 At that age,
0:49:16 you were a very young man.
0:49:16 I mean,
0:49:18 you still look like a young man now.
0:49:19 God bless you, brother.
0:49:21 But young men are in particular,
0:49:23 have a particular set of struggles
0:49:24 in the modern world.
0:49:25 And you’ve used certain words
0:49:26 that sort of pile into that.
0:49:27 You’ve used the words purpose
0:49:27 and meaning.
0:49:29 And if we look at some of the stats
0:49:31 around how young men are doing
0:49:32 in the country,
0:49:33 it’s not great.
0:49:34 And even young boys
0:49:35 are doing terribly
0:49:36 across the world
0:49:37 for a variety of reasons.
0:49:38 And when we think about
0:49:39 the political climate
0:49:40 and what’s happened
0:49:41 in this last election cycle
0:49:42 and how young men
0:49:43 are voting increasingly
0:49:44 for a certain set of ideas,
0:49:47 what do you think
0:49:48 is going on with young men?
0:49:50 And what is the solution
0:49:50 or answer
0:49:51 that will lead them
0:49:52 to a better outcome?
0:49:53 You know,
0:49:54 I’m really proud of my wife
0:49:57 who’s been a real leader.
0:50:00 She’s done a half dozen documentaries.
0:50:01 She did one
0:50:02 that was particularly
0:50:03 well-received
0:50:03 called
0:50:05 Misrepresentation
0:50:06 about the myths
0:50:07 and disinformation
0:50:08 around women and girls.
0:50:09 She followed up
0:50:10 two years later
0:50:11 in 2015
0:50:13 with a documentary
0:50:13 called
0:50:15 The Mask You Live In
0:50:16 about masculinity.
0:50:18 In 2015,
0:50:19 she was highlighting
0:50:20 all the things,
0:50:21 the trend lines
0:50:22 a decade ago
0:50:23 that are headlines today
0:50:24 as it relates
0:50:25 to the crisis
0:50:26 of boys and men.
0:50:27 And she was noting
0:50:28 the suicide rate.
0:50:29 She was talking about
0:50:31 deaths of despair.
0:50:32 She was talking about
0:50:33 educational attainment.
0:50:34 She was talking about
0:50:34 all these issues
0:50:35 that were
0:50:37 a next-level crisis.
0:50:38 And it was so ahead
0:50:39 of her time
0:50:40 in so many respects.
0:50:42 And she’s come back
0:50:43 to me on that
0:50:43 over and over again,
0:50:45 particularly with our two boys
0:50:45 and their maturation
0:50:46 versus my two girls
0:50:48 and the relationship
0:50:49 we have to
0:50:50 our deeper understanding
0:50:50 of how men
0:50:52 and girls
0:50:53 and women
0:50:53 and boys
0:50:54 are different.
0:50:55 And so
0:50:57 this is code red
0:50:59 in this country
0:51:00 around the world
0:51:00 increasingly.
0:51:01 And if it was happening
0:51:03 to any minority group,
0:51:04 particularly in my party,
0:51:04 the Democratic Party,
0:51:06 we’d be all over it.
0:51:06 Instead,
0:51:08 we’ve been timid about it
0:51:09 because men have
0:51:10 this sort of hierarchical
0:51:12 benefits in society
0:51:12 that go back
0:51:13 hundreds and hundreds
0:51:13 of years.
0:51:15 Oh, men are really struggling.
0:51:15 Really?
0:51:16 You know,
0:51:17 men still dominate
0:51:18 in all these key positions
0:51:19 of power and influence.
0:51:20 But when you see
0:51:21 all what’s happening
0:51:21 underneath,
0:51:23 it is a crisis.
0:51:24 And as a consequence,
0:51:26 the Republican Party,
0:51:27 Donald Trump in particular,
0:51:28 and I think in some respects
0:51:29 what’s happening
0:51:31 in this sort of manosphere,
0:51:31 and I don’t mean
0:51:32 that pejoratively,
0:51:35 there’s been
0:51:36 not an exploitation,
0:51:36 at least there’s
0:51:37 a recognition
0:51:38 and a relationship
0:51:39 to it
0:51:40 that has attracted
0:51:41 a lot of young men
0:51:42 that are seeking
0:51:42 meaning,
0:51:42 purpose,
0:51:43 and mission.
0:51:45 And as a consequence,
0:51:47 it’s also been weaponized,
0:51:49 particularly by one party
0:51:50 in a way that I don’t think
0:51:51 is ultimately
0:51:53 beneficial or positive.
0:51:54 Our party needs
0:51:55 to own up to that,
0:51:56 and we need to address
0:51:58 these realities.
0:51:59 Richard Reeves
0:52:00 is doing amazing work on it.
0:52:01 Scott Galloway
0:52:02 is doing amazing work on it.
0:52:03 So many folks
0:52:04 in this space,
0:52:05 you know,
0:52:07 Kat’s been doing
0:52:08 a decade ago
0:52:08 talking about it.
0:52:10 But Democratic Party,
0:52:11 my party,
0:52:12 needs to own up
0:52:12 in this space.
0:52:14 And just so I’m not,
0:52:15 you know,
0:52:16 I’m accused of preaching
0:52:16 and not practicing,
0:52:18 I’ve worked for the last
0:52:18 six months
0:52:20 on an executive order
0:52:21 that we’re about to release
0:52:22 in this space
0:52:23 that goes to issues
0:52:24 around education.
0:52:26 It can’t be what you can’t see
0:52:28 in a lot of these
0:52:29 kindergarten,
0:52:30 elementary teachers,
0:52:31 most of them are women.
0:52:32 It’s so about recruiting
0:52:33 more men
0:52:34 to become teachers,
0:52:36 focusing on caregiving,
0:52:37 focusing more broadly
0:52:39 on very intentional
0:52:39 interventions
0:52:40 to begin to address
0:52:41 this crisis.
0:52:42 The Democratic Party,
0:52:43 I think it’s fair to say,
0:52:44 most certainly played
0:52:44 their hand wrong
0:52:45 in this regard.
0:52:46 And the word played
0:52:47 is obviously,
0:52:47 again,
0:52:48 comes loaded.
0:52:49 But very much,
0:52:50 I think,
0:52:52 I think,
0:52:54 so some,
0:52:55 I think people
0:52:56 could fairly say
0:52:56 to some degree
0:52:58 turned against
0:53:02 or misunderstood men
0:53:03 is probably
0:53:03 a better way
0:53:04 of saying it,
0:53:05 misunderstood the plight
0:53:06 of men and boys.
0:53:07 And
0:53:10 the Republican Party,
0:53:10 I think,
0:53:11 the message
0:53:11 that they offered,
0:53:13 although there’s
0:53:15 shades of,
0:53:17 you know,
0:53:18 behavior
0:53:19 or
0:53:21 narrative
0:53:22 that is not
0:53:22 productive,
0:53:24 at least spoke
0:53:25 directly to men.
0:53:25 100%.
0:53:26 We didn’t,
0:53:27 what do you think
0:53:28 the Democratic Party
0:53:29 got wrong
0:53:29 as it relates
0:53:30 to appealing
0:53:31 to young men?
0:53:32 What’s the narrative
0:53:33 that the Democratic Party
0:53:34 projected but
0:53:35 shouldn’t have?
0:53:37 I think
0:53:37 there was just
0:53:38 deep lack
0:53:39 of empathy,
0:53:40 care,
0:53:41 any compassion
0:53:43 to what was going on,
0:53:46 and recognition,
0:53:47 even deeper understanding.
0:53:48 I think it’s still
0:53:48 something,
0:53:49 I still have
0:53:50 conversations with folks
0:53:51 and people
0:53:52 are very uncomfortable
0:53:53 in my party
0:53:54 talking about this,
0:53:55 particularly
0:53:56 members
0:53:57 of my party
0:53:58 in leadership
0:53:58 positions,
0:53:59 particularly women
0:54:01 that just feel like,
0:54:01 come on,
0:54:02 we just went through
0:54:02 Me Too,
0:54:04 we’re struggling
0:54:05 with gender equality,
0:54:05 inequality,
0:54:07 we still don’t have
0:54:08 equal representations
0:54:09 in all these CEO positions,
0:54:10 and obviously we’re
0:54:12 struggling in legislatures,
0:54:13 we continue to have
0:54:14 this glass ceiling
0:54:14 we can’t break,
0:54:15 and what more proof
0:54:16 do you need
0:54:16 than Kamala Harris
0:54:18 and Hillary Clinton?
0:54:20 We don’t even get paid
0:54:21 for the same amount
0:54:22 as men,
0:54:23 and what the hell
0:54:23 are you talking to me
0:54:24 about the unique
0:54:25 plight and challenges
0:54:25 of men?
0:54:26 And then you start
0:54:26 saying,
0:54:27 well,
0:54:27 there’s going to be
0:54:28 two-to-one graduates
0:54:30 coming from our UC system
0:54:30 here in California
0:54:32 in the next six years.
0:54:32 They’re like,
0:54:33 that’s not true,
0:54:33 and then they see
0:54:34 the dads,
0:54:34 women,
0:54:35 and they go,
0:54:35 oh,
0:54:36 I didn’t realize that.
0:54:37 Two-to-one women
0:54:38 graduating versus men.
0:54:38 Yeah,
0:54:38 I mean,
0:54:39 we’re on that track.
0:54:40 I mean,
0:54:40 we’re moving down
0:54:41 that path.
0:54:42 Same in the UK.
0:54:43 You see the suicide rates
0:54:44 are just off the chart.
0:54:45 You see the deaths
0:54:46 of despair,
0:54:46 meaning overdoses,
0:54:48 off the charts,
0:54:49 and you see all
0:54:50 of these indexes
0:54:51 of unhappiness
0:54:51 and loneliness
0:54:53 and isolation.
0:54:53 You see,
0:54:53 I mean,
0:54:54 Scott,
0:54:55 he’s the best.
0:54:55 I mean,
0:54:56 talking about
0:54:56 what this means
0:54:57 in terms of
0:54:58 just the inability
0:54:59 for boys
0:55:00 to ever become men,
0:55:01 to be caregivers,
0:55:03 to be those warriors,
0:55:04 to have,
0:55:04 you know,
0:55:07 to be those role models,
0:55:08 to even have
0:55:09 the masculine traits
0:55:10 of just being able
0:55:11 to be engaged
0:55:12 in a real relationship
0:55:13 as opposed to
0:55:14 attached to some
0:55:15 notion of relationship
0:55:16 online porn
0:55:16 or something.
0:55:17 And so,
0:55:19 it’s a comprehensive
0:55:21 strategy that needs
0:55:21 to be engaged.
0:55:22 And for me,
0:55:23 politically,
0:55:23 it’s,
0:55:24 as I said,
0:55:24 it’s code red,
0:55:26 not just the substance,
0:55:28 the morality of it,
0:55:29 but also the politics
0:55:30 attached to it
0:55:31 because the other parties
0:55:32 weaponize this
0:55:34 and it’s multicultural,
0:55:35 it’s multi-ethnic,
0:55:35 it’s not just,
0:55:37 it’s not just white male
0:55:39 grievance that’s being
0:55:40 expressed in this space.
0:55:40 if and when
0:55:41 you become president
0:55:42 in 2028
0:55:43 or another year,
0:55:46 how is the attitude
0:55:47 towards men
0:55:48 going to shift
0:55:49 and what are the
0:55:49 practical ways
0:55:50 that you get there
0:55:51 towards,
0:55:52 you know?
0:55:52 Well,
0:55:53 I don’t think you wait
0:55:54 for that moment.
0:55:55 I think we have to
0:55:56 shape that moment.
0:55:56 I think we have to
0:55:57 take responsibility.
0:55:58 We have to take account
0:55:58 and we have to have
0:55:59 a sober,
0:55:59 first of all,
0:56:00 you have to have
0:56:01 a deeper sober reflection
0:56:01 of why the hell
0:56:02 the Democratic Party
0:56:05 is at 27%
0:56:05 in polls
0:56:06 just a few months ago.
0:56:06 I mean,
0:56:07 it’s a toxic party
0:56:08 in terms of its brand.
0:56:09 Why?
0:56:10 Exactly.
0:56:11 We need to understand
0:56:11 that.
0:56:13 I can give you 25 theories.
0:56:14 Can you give me a super,
0:56:15 because I’m not a politician
0:56:15 so I don’t understand
0:56:16 a lot of the political talk,
0:56:17 but like,
0:56:18 that is staggering.
0:56:19 Yes.
0:56:20 And why did it happen?
0:56:21 Yes.
0:56:23 Thank you.
0:56:24 No,
0:56:25 but that’s the question.
0:56:26 How did that happen?
0:56:27 It’s one of the reasons
0:56:28 I started my own podcast.
0:56:29 It was part of that exploration.
0:56:29 Again,
0:56:31 back to humility and grace,
0:56:31 two words I’ll use
0:56:33 over and over and over
0:56:33 and over again.
0:56:35 Seek first to understand
0:56:36 before you’re understood.
0:56:38 I listened to all the punditry
0:56:40 hours after the election results.
0:56:40 Yeah.
0:56:42 And everyone was an expert.
0:56:42 I’m like,
0:56:43 that’s amazing.
0:56:43 You’re an expert.
0:56:44 It was Israel,
0:56:45 for sure.
0:56:45 No,
0:56:46 it was inflation,
0:56:46 for sure.
0:56:47 No,
0:56:48 it was interest rates,
0:56:48 for sure.
0:56:49 No,
0:56:49 it was incumbency,
0:56:51 for sure.
0:56:51 No,
0:56:53 it was woke,
0:56:53 for sure.
0:56:54 it was trans,
0:56:55 for sure.
0:56:56 Everyone was for sure.
0:56:58 They knew exactly what it was.
0:56:58 I’m like,
0:56:59 this is amazing.
0:57:00 Everyone just knows
0:57:00 what’s going on.
0:57:01 Meanwhile,
0:57:02 I’m like 20 pages in
0:57:03 writing this down,
0:57:04 saying,
0:57:04 oh,
0:57:05 it’s about loss of management.
0:57:05 Oh,
0:57:05 no,
0:57:07 it’s about the management.
0:57:07 No,
0:57:07 it’s about,
0:57:09 it was about Joe Rogan.
0:57:09 We didn’t go on Joe.
0:57:09 Oh,
0:57:10 for sure.
0:57:11 It was about,
0:57:12 she didn’t,
0:57:12 you know,
0:57:13 she didn’t say this,
0:57:13 or she,
0:57:14 it was the view,
0:57:15 for sure.
0:57:16 She could have separated
0:57:16 from Biden.
0:57:16 No,
0:57:17 it was a,
0:57:19 and then I’m like,
0:57:19 well,
0:57:19 wait a second.
0:57:25 And so,
0:57:26 that became my own journey
0:57:27 back to the entrepreneur,
0:57:28 trying to iterate
0:57:30 and deciding to get some folks
0:57:32 that I vehemently disagree on
0:57:33 with on my,
0:57:34 on a new podcast,
0:57:35 Charlie Kirk,
0:57:35 because,
0:57:35 you know,
0:57:36 for sure,
0:57:37 he was successful
0:57:39 in convincing a lot of young men
0:57:40 to turn out in record numbers
0:57:40 for Trump.
0:57:41 I wanted to learn about that.
0:57:42 Back to this notion
0:57:43 of success leaves clues.
0:57:45 I want to pick his brain.
0:57:46 What are you doing right,
0:57:47 man?
0:57:48 Show some humility
0:57:50 and grace as it relates to
0:57:52 not trying to be argumentative
0:57:53 in the interview.
0:57:53 just,
0:57:54 I’m trying to pick,
0:57:55 I want to know
0:57:57 why you’re so successful.
0:57:58 That offended a lot of people.
0:57:59 What did you discover?
0:58:02 He’s got a plan.
0:58:03 He’s executing a plan.
0:58:04 He’s got a strategy.
0:58:05 He’s got a date
0:58:07 that he’s identified
0:58:09 with a goal attached to it.
0:58:10 He’s got a dream
0:58:10 with a deadline.
0:58:11 He’s there
0:58:13 in places people
0:58:14 don’t expect him to be.
0:58:15 He’s meeting with folks
0:58:16 without any filter.
0:58:18 He’s willing to confront people
0:58:18 he disagrees with
0:58:19 and agrees with.
0:58:21 He’s willing to be out there
0:58:21 on the field.
0:58:23 He’s organized
0:58:23 organized
0:58:24 a construct
0:58:26 and he’s been very deliberative
0:58:27 of building a sense
0:58:28 of community
0:58:30 and this notion of community.
0:58:31 We all want to be connected
0:58:33 to something bigger
0:58:33 than ourselves.
0:58:35 It’s a big part of this as well,
0:58:36 part of the MAGA movement.
0:58:37 And particularly
0:58:39 with people feeling disconnected,
0:58:40 you’re naturally
0:58:40 going to want to find
0:58:41 your way back
0:58:42 to something bigger
0:58:43 than themselves
0:58:44 that sort of moors you
0:58:45 and gives you a sense
0:58:45 of purpose
0:58:46 and meaning as well.
0:58:48 And when people are lost,
0:58:49 they do go in search
0:58:50 of someone
0:58:50 who resonates with them
0:58:51 and someone who speaks
0:58:52 directly to their plight.
0:58:54 And my observation
0:58:55 as someone that’s not an American,
0:58:57 when I think about someone
0:58:58 like Charlie Kirk
0:58:59 versus Kamala Harris,
0:59:01 it’s the absolute
0:59:02 opposite approach.
0:59:03 Kamala Harris,
0:59:04 lots of people say
0:59:05 she avoided going on Rogan.
0:59:06 She wanted him to fly to her.
0:59:07 She wanted Rogan
0:59:08 to fly to her.
0:59:09 She was going to give him
0:59:11 a tiny short time window.
0:59:12 It was probably going to be
0:59:13 a bit sanitized
0:59:14 in all respects.
0:59:16 And then Charlie Kirk
0:59:16 sits on campuses
0:59:17 across the US
0:59:19 and has students come up
0:59:20 and ask him any question.
0:59:22 And his response is,
0:59:23 he shows you his response
0:59:24 to his credit
0:59:28 and he doesn’t care
0:59:29 about sanitization
0:59:30 or being politically correct.
0:59:30 Correct.
0:59:32 And he puts it on YouTube
0:59:33 for hours and hours
0:59:34 and hours and hours.
0:59:36 And I think in a glass box world
0:59:39 where we get to see inside now
0:59:40 because of technology,
0:59:41 the black box approach
0:59:42 where your PR team
0:59:44 tries to paint an image
0:59:46 on the outside is over.
0:59:46 And we saw it
0:59:47 in the selection cycle.
0:59:48 And you’re doing,
0:59:48 you’re leading the,
0:59:49 I have to give you credit,
0:59:50 you are leading the charge there
0:59:51 because I can’t think
0:59:53 of another key political figure
0:59:55 globally who has started
0:59:56 a podcast where you literally
0:59:58 invite the other side on.
1:00:00 So you’re doing,
1:00:01 I think you’re playing
1:00:02 the glass box approach.
1:00:03 I love the way
1:00:04 you describe that
1:00:06 and everything you said
1:00:07 resonated with me.
1:00:10 Had Steve Bannon on.
1:00:11 Yeah.
1:00:13 which is just,
1:00:13 you know,
1:00:14 itself was interesting.
1:00:15 Look,
1:00:18 these folks exist
1:00:18 and persist.
1:00:20 You can deny it.
1:00:21 My party can deny it
1:00:22 at its own peril.
1:00:22 Back to your point
1:00:23 about what the hell
1:00:24 has happened to my party.
1:00:25 And so trying to understand that,
1:00:26 trying to unpack that.
1:00:27 But, you know,
1:00:28 it’s interesting.
1:00:30 I think, you know,
1:00:31 Kamala is an old friend of mine.
1:00:32 I don’t want to get into Kamala.
1:00:33 And I say old friend
1:00:34 and people roll their eyes
1:00:34 in politics.
1:00:35 People say, you know,
1:00:36 old friend.
1:00:37 That means they’re frenemies.
1:00:37 It’s not.
1:00:38 But we go back
1:00:39 before we were both in politics.
1:00:40 We both share that.
1:00:41 Willie Brown,
1:00:42 the former mayor,
1:00:43 in common in terms of a relationship
1:00:44 that we both had.
1:00:46 And as a consequence
1:00:46 of the relationship
1:00:47 we had with him,
1:00:49 we were able to get to know
1:00:49 one another
1:00:50 as sort of this cohort.
1:00:54 And I think a lot about,
1:00:54 you know,
1:00:57 what we’ve just gone through.
1:00:58 I wish,
1:00:59 I’d love to see Kamala
1:01:01 on your show.
1:01:02 I’d love to see her
1:01:04 picture of mom and dad.
1:01:05 And I know her as well
1:01:06 or better than most.
1:01:07 Yeah.
1:01:08 But I would love to see
1:01:09 that side of her.
1:01:10 I would.
1:01:11 So this notion of,
1:01:11 what’d you say,
1:01:12 glass box?
1:01:13 Glass box versus black box.
1:01:14 Black box.
1:01:16 Hey,
1:01:18 I’m on here for a reason.
1:01:19 Yeah.
1:01:20 I just, you know,
1:01:22 it’s like I’m out of any excuse.
1:01:22 Look,
1:01:23 you are who you are.
1:01:25 And let it all out there.
1:01:26 And I think people,
1:01:29 I think we claim
1:01:30 we long for authenticity.
1:01:32 I still mostly believe that.
1:01:34 Sometimes I question that
1:01:36 because people want you
1:01:36 to be your authentic self,
1:01:37 but they’re like,
1:01:37 well,
1:01:38 don’t swear as much
1:01:39 or be your authentic self,
1:01:40 but don’t be so emotional
1:01:41 or be your authentic self,
1:01:42 but there’s a but.
1:01:44 But I think at the end of the day,
1:01:45 I think we’re,
1:01:46 we’ve crossed that.
1:01:47 I think we’re on the other side.
1:01:50 People just want more of you,
1:01:51 whoever the hell you are.
1:01:52 Regardless of what it is.
1:01:54 Because even the crazy thing
1:01:55 I observe about Trump
1:01:59 is even the imperfect things he says
1:02:00 that would once upon a time
1:02:02 have revolted some people
1:02:03 and would have had adverse reactions.
1:02:07 The fact that he’s willing to say them
1:02:09 creates the impression in my mind
1:02:11 that I know who he is.
1:02:11 Yeah.
1:02:13 And you don’t have to like someone,
1:02:15 but if you trust that you know who they are,
1:02:17 then you feel,
1:02:18 I think,
1:02:21 safer in predicting what they’ll do.
1:02:23 Now, if I don’t see Kamala sat on Joe Rogan
1:02:24 or someone like this,
1:02:26 getting to know her unfiltered,
1:02:26 you know,
1:02:27 your team didn’t tell me this.
1:02:29 Your team didn’t give me any parameters.
1:02:30 They didn’t say,
1:02:31 you can’t ask him about this.
1:02:32 Don’t talk about this.
1:02:33 There was no parameters.
1:02:34 At least people will know who you are.
1:02:35 Yeah.
1:02:37 And I think most people don’t.
1:02:38 They see me as sort of,
1:02:38 you know,
1:02:39 a slick guy that,
1:02:40 you know,
1:02:41 was like,
1:02:43 they think I grew up with a trust fund.
1:02:44 Everything was handed to them.
1:02:46 People don’t know my entrepreneurial background.
1:02:47 I don’t think they,
1:02:48 they,
1:02:48 they,
1:02:49 they believe what they,
1:02:52 they may have seen on Fox news out here or,
1:02:52 you know,
1:02:55 one American news and the weaponization of that.
1:02:55 And so,
1:02:56 you know,
1:02:56 I just,
1:02:57 it’s critical.
1:02:58 I think for our party,
1:02:58 generally,
1:03:00 I think for both parties now,
1:03:00 just,
1:03:01 you’ve just got to get out of that bubble.
1:03:02 I give Trump,
1:03:03 to your point,
1:03:04 credit in that respect in every way,
1:03:05 shape,
1:03:05 form,
1:03:06 criticize him for many things.
1:03:08 You can’t criticize him for accessibility,
1:03:12 for at least appearing to be authentic in terms of his approach,
1:03:14 his willingness to confront and engage.
1:03:15 And I,
1:03:16 I think that’s very refreshing.
1:03:18 How do you think America’s doing?
1:03:19 I think we’re struggling.
1:03:20 Our identity,
1:03:22 I think we’re,
1:03:22 you know,
1:03:23 Trump has made it,
1:03:25 made us feel free to shove again.
1:03:28 It’s not our better selves.
1:03:30 You know,
1:03:30 the,
1:03:33 the sort of John Meacham language,
1:03:33 you know,
1:03:34 the soul of America is,
1:03:35 is,
1:03:35 is,
1:03:36 is struggling.
1:03:38 And I really worry about our institutions.
1:03:39 I worry about our democracy.
1:03:41 I worry about neighbors,
1:03:42 turning on neighbors,
1:03:45 people forgetting the universal truths that we all want to be loved.
1:03:46 We all need to be loved.
1:03:49 I talked about everybody needing to be connected.
1:03:50 We also need to be respected.
1:03:52 And I think people are talking down to each other,
1:03:54 talking past each other.
1:03:54 It’s again,
1:03:56 why I want platform people.
1:03:59 I disagree with a new Gingrich on former speaker Gingrich,
1:04:01 who led my recall effort against me.
1:04:01 You know,
1:04:02 I just,
1:04:05 I’m trying to just find some balance in that respect.
1:04:06 because you know,
1:04:08 there are good people that vehemently disagree with us.
1:04:11 I don’t know that it benefits any of us to,
1:04:14 to demean or belittle folks.
1:04:15 That’s my thing with Trump.
1:04:17 He attacks vulnerable communities.
1:04:17 My mom,
1:04:18 her,
1:04:19 what her real,
1:04:23 early indelible inspiration for me in terms of one of those two,
1:04:24 three jobs.
1:04:27 she had wasn’t just working as a waitress and doing the bookkeeping,
1:04:31 but she worked for aid to adoption of special kids with the Debalt family that
1:04:35 had kids with intellectual and physical disabilities.
1:04:40 And I remember spending time with these kids and I hate bullies.
1:04:41 I mean,
1:04:42 forgive the word hate.
1:04:43 I know I just,
1:04:44 I dislike,
1:04:44 I hate bullies.
1:04:47 I don’t like people demeaning other people.
1:04:48 I don’t like people scapegoating,
1:04:50 scapegoating vulnerable communities.
1:04:53 My why is standing up for ideals and striking out against injustice.
1:04:56 It defines nine out of 10 things for me,
1:04:57 personal,
1:04:58 professional,
1:04:59 standing up for ideals,
1:05:00 striking out against injustice.
1:05:02 And it’s just to me,
1:05:07 unjust to see people demeaned and belittled and to use,
1:05:11 to see vulnerable communities used as pawns to talk about,
1:05:11 you know,
1:05:12 alligator,
1:05:18 whatever in Florida and talk about immigrants and demeaning in ways.
1:05:20 And they have to zig and zag if they want to,
1:05:24 avoid getting killed by an alligator or something or mocking people with
1:05:25 disabilities.
1:05:26 That’s where I,
1:05:27 that’s where I get,
1:05:29 that’s where I stand firm.
1:05:31 And right now,
1:05:32 my biggest fear,
1:05:33 you asked about how,
1:05:34 where our country is.
1:05:40 I feel like Trump has opened that Overton window in a way that I very
1:05:44 concerned about our ability to get back to find our better humanity.
1:05:46 Who does Trump care about?
1:05:47 Himself,
1:05:47 period,
1:05:47 full stop.
1:05:49 It’s not complicated.
1:05:50 He doesn’t,
1:05:52 he doesn’t care if he’s the heel or the hero,
1:05:53 as long as he’s the star.
1:05:53 It’s,
1:05:54 I mean,
1:05:54 it’s,
1:05:56 and that’s just anyone that’s spent time with them.
1:05:58 I spend time with as much or more than any Democrat,
1:06:00 certainly any democratic governor in the country,
1:06:00 period,
1:06:01 full stop.
1:06:02 I did it through COVID.
1:06:02 My,
1:06:05 his first term and certainly even in the second term.
1:06:06 And what surprised you?
1:06:06 Nothing.
1:06:09 The surprise me now is that he’s a very different guy than he was in the
1:06:10 first term.
1:06:11 he’s,
1:06:14 there’s no limits now.
1:06:15 It’s,
1:06:17 there’s a megalomania there.
1:06:18 Megalomania.
1:06:20 He feels no limits now.
1:06:23 And you feel that in every way.
1:06:26 He can say and do whatever the hell he wants.
1:06:27 And there’s no oversight.
1:06:28 There’s no advising consent.
1:06:30 There’s no co-equal branch of government.
1:06:33 And the speaker of our house of representatives completely abdicated that.
1:06:34 The question is,
1:06:36 do the courts hold up or are we the people?
1:06:41 And I’ll tell you that we’re celebrating our 250th anniversary of the founding
1:06:41 fathers,
1:06:43 the best of the Roman Republic,
1:06:43 Greek democracy.
1:06:44 And,
1:06:45 and you know,
1:06:47 this notion of,
1:06:48 of system of checks and balances,
1:06:49 popular sovereignty.
1:06:51 And I think it’s,
1:06:52 it’s on life support now.
1:06:54 And I don’t say that lightly.
1:06:56 I say that very thoughtfully.
1:06:59 And I say that as a guy that’s watched the president of the United States,
1:07:01 not send military in his first term,
1:07:04 or is the first six months anywhere in the world,
1:07:09 except to an American city where he’s 5,000 military in the streets of Los Angeles,
1:07:11 a war within.
1:07:16 So I say this very soberly and mindful of the moment we are in American history.
1:07:19 Do you think he wants to see you fail?
1:07:23 I think he wants to take me out and down at the same time.
1:07:26 I think he enjoys the sparring with me.
1:07:26 I think he,
1:07:28 I think he thrives on it.
1:07:29 I know he does.
1:07:31 Because he calls you Gavin new scum.
1:07:31 Yes.
1:07:32 But then meets with you privately.
1:07:33 Yeah.
1:07:34 And what are those meetings like?
1:07:35 Unbelievably cordial.
1:07:35 Unbelievably,
1:07:38 it drives people crazy when I say this,
1:07:39 but I’d be lying if I didn’t say it.
1:07:40 Every time I have a conversation,
1:07:44 including the night before he quote unquote,
1:07:46 federalized the National Guard.
1:07:48 We had an unbelievably good conversation.
1:07:50 And we were going back and forth.
1:07:50 He said,
1:07:51 use this cell phone.
1:07:52 Keep,
1:07:53 keep calling me on the cell phone directly.
1:07:54 You need anything?
1:07:54 Call me.
1:07:55 You need anything?
1:07:56 Call me.
1:07:57 Which is an amazing final statement.
1:07:58 As I hung up,
1:08:00 only to read eight hours later,
1:08:02 that at new scum,
1:08:03 I read him the riot act,
1:08:04 which he never did.
1:08:04 Completely made,
1:08:06 100% made it up.
1:08:08 And then federalizes the guard.
1:08:10 It’s a,
1:08:11 it’s a game.
1:08:12 It’s a show.
1:08:13 It’s a dangerous game.
1:08:16 And it’s a very exhausting show.
1:08:19 And it’s becoming derivative and,
1:08:21 and more dangerous.
1:08:23 Isn’t this just how politics goes in America?
1:08:24 Shouldn’t.
1:08:24 No,
1:08:25 it shouldn’t.
1:08:25 Look,
1:08:28 I used to have my beef with George W. Bush,
1:08:29 George H. W. Bush.
1:08:29 We,
1:08:31 we’d have our beefs on the other side.
1:08:32 Republicans,
1:08:34 certainly with Clinton or Obama,
1:08:35 or even Biden.
1:08:36 Longed for those days.
1:08:37 University.
1:08:39 I’d go in the office of Ronald Reagan’s old office,
1:08:40 Governor Ronald Reagan.
1:08:41 That’s my old office.
1:08:43 his governor of California.
1:08:43 I mean,
1:08:44 you know,
1:08:44 his,
1:08:46 his last speech in the Oval Office,
1:08:49 his last speech was about the life force of new Americans.
1:08:50 Lady Liberty’s torch.
1:08:52 Our better angels.
1:08:52 I mean,
1:08:54 what happened to that Republican party?
1:08:57 And this is different.
1:08:58 This is darkness.
1:08:59 Really?
1:09:00 Darkness.
1:09:02 Because I hear this every election cycle.
1:09:02 No,
1:09:03 this is,
1:09:04 this is,
1:09:04 we’re,
1:09:06 we’re only six months in.
1:09:11 The vandalization that he’s done to this democracy and institutions.
1:09:12 I mean,
1:09:13 eliminating oversight.
1:09:15 I’m not just talking about a co-equal branch of government.
1:09:17 What does that mean for the average person that doesn’t,
1:09:19 it means there’s no,
1:09:23 he’s eliminated the inspector general’s auditing capacity.
1:09:27 He’s going after political opponents,
1:09:30 removing them from key positions of power and influence and putting in
1:09:32 acolytes,
1:09:34 putting out people that just do his bidding.
1:09:37 He’s pushing the boundaries on the rule of law.
1:09:39 He’s threatening to recall,
1:09:41 not just people he disagrees with.
1:09:42 He wanted my arrest.
1:09:44 Remember the president of the United States said,
1:09:45 Newsom should be arrested.
1:09:45 They said,
1:09:46 on what grounds?
1:09:47 He got elected.
1:09:49 Said he doesn’t like the fact that his political enemy got elected.
1:09:51 It means he’s not,
1:09:53 he doesn’t say that lightly.
1:09:54 And you know,
1:09:56 once the mind is stretched,
1:09:57 it never goes back to its original form.
1:09:59 So every time he does this,
1:10:01 he’s sort of testing these boundaries.
1:10:05 And this is what makes me more concerned.
1:10:06 I’ll give you a proof point.
1:10:07 God is my witness.
1:10:08 We’re sitting here.
1:10:11 When we do this today on this podcast,
1:10:11 we just,
1:10:15 I just read this morning that Donald Trump was on the phone with the Texas
1:10:16 legislature.
1:10:20 And they’re going through a redistricting thing to basically get five more
1:10:25 seats for the midterms because they’re likely to lose the midterms.
1:10:30 And Trump is like lose power unless they can change the districts and rig
1:10:31 the game.
1:10:32 So he stays in power.
1:10:35 Do you think he’s going to try and stay in power?
1:10:39 When people close to Donald Trump,
1:10:43 when people close to Donald Trump send the governor of California,
1:10:46 a hat that says Trump 2028.
1:10:48 They’re not being around.
1:10:51 They sent you a hat saying Trump 2028.
1:10:52 2028.
1:10:53 They’re not screwing around.
1:10:57 I sat in the oval office for 90 minutes with Donald Trump.
1:10:59 First democratic governor to do that.
1:11:01 And he was looked and he looked around and said,
1:11:01 Hey,
1:11:02 so he’s behind you.
1:11:02 I said,
1:11:03 I looked around the pictures.
1:11:04 I’m like FDR.
1:11:05 And I literally turned.
1:11:05 I’m like,
1:11:06 Oh,
1:11:06 seriously?
1:11:07 He goes,
1:11:07 yeah.
1:11:08 Cause what do you think?
1:11:09 Three terms,
1:11:10 four terms.
1:11:10 I said,
1:11:11 Oh,
1:11:11 come on.
1:11:14 And then he just starts laughing because he’s lighting.
1:11:15 He’s having fun.
1:11:16 But again,
1:11:18 he’s throwing things out.
1:11:19 He’s yes.
1:11:20 He’s iterating.
1:11:22 Do you think he would stay for a third,
1:11:22 fourth?
1:11:23 I mean,
1:11:23 he,
1:11:26 I think still he’s the guy that tried to wreck this country,
1:11:28 try to light our democracy on fire.
1:11:29 He said it was,
1:11:30 it was a day of love,
1:11:31 January 6th,
1:11:33 so much so that he literally,
1:11:34 as you know,
1:11:36 pardoned everybody that participated in that melee.
1:11:38 I mean,
1:11:39 that happened.
1:11:46 That is grounds in and of itself to question whether or not I’m overstating anything.
1:11:48 And that was first week in office.
1:11:49 It’s,
1:11:49 it’s,
1:11:50 I mean,
1:11:50 this is shock and awe.
1:11:57 We have people in masks going to car washes without identifying and people are disappearing.
1:12:00 In the streets of America today,
1:12:05 thousands of people disappearing on the streets of America today based on what you look like,
1:12:06 your skin color.
1:12:08 In the streets of America today,
1:12:09 that’s happening.
1:12:10 That is not normal.
1:12:16 And every day he’s able to shapeshift and distract us to move someplace else.
1:12:16 I’ve got a big announcement,
1:12:18 huge announcement on Putin.
1:12:21 I’ll do major sanctions in 50 days.
1:12:21 Really?
1:12:22 I mean,
1:12:24 this ability to distract,
1:12:24 it’s serious.
1:12:27 What lies underneath is serious.
1:12:30 And I don’t think I’m exaggerating it.
1:12:31 And I’m very,
1:12:35 very cautious when it comes to this kind of language,
1:12:36 because you’re right.
1:12:38 When you tend to say,
1:12:38 you know,
1:12:39 you know,
1:12:41 start crying wolf here.
1:12:47 I don’t think we’re overstating the seriousness that we have to push back.
1:12:50 The seriousness of purpose to which this moment needs to be met.
1:12:50 That is.
1:12:53 Really?
1:12:54 This is not just another,
1:12:54 you know,
1:12:56 president comes in,
1:12:57 they do a bunch of changes,
1:12:58 a bunch of executive orders,
1:13:00 and then they leave in three and a half years.
1:13:02 He tried to stay in the office.
1:13:05 He called the elections chief in Georgia and asked,
1:13:07 I just need a few thousand votes.
1:13:08 He wasn’t walking around.
1:13:10 He was not joking about that.
1:13:12 He was dead serious about that.
1:13:14 And had they found that,
1:13:16 he would have rigged his own election.
1:13:18 You serious?
1:13:19 What more evidence do you need?
1:13:22 He’s quite literally,
1:13:24 they’re so concerned about taking over the house.
1:13:26 Now Democrats were on path to do it.
1:13:28 They have to re rig the game.
1:13:31 And you think if they don’t take back the house of representatives,
1:13:35 they won’t move from some form of voter suppression,
1:13:37 the likes of which we’ve never seen in this country,
1:13:39 threats of martial law.
1:13:43 What do you think this whole experiment with 5,000 military weeks and weeks
1:13:44 and weeks doing nothing,
1:13:45 by the way,
1:13:46 they’re sitting in the armory.
1:13:47 They’re doing nothing.
1:13:49 They’re there for show,
1:13:53 but he’s pushing the boundaries of what they’re capable of doing,
1:13:55 testing the courts and the constitution.
1:13:57 That’s for a larger purpose.
1:13:58 And I’m not trying to be,
1:13:59 you know,
1:14:00 I’m not trying to be,
1:14:04 it may not be intentional purpose yet,
1:14:07 but they’ll place an opportunity
1:14:10 to utilize the lessons learned here today
1:14:14 to extend their reach and power tomorrow.
1:14:15 And I very much,
1:14:16 yes,
1:14:19 I worry about our democracy in three and a half years.
1:14:23 And I worry about that election if they maintain their power.
1:14:24 in the House of Representatives.
1:14:26 I’m that deeply concerned,
1:14:26 dead serious.
1:14:28 On the balance of probability,
1:14:30 do you think it’s likely Trump will stay,
1:14:32 try and stay in office in 2028?
1:14:34 On the balance of probability,
1:14:34 no.
1:14:35 No,
1:14:35 okay.
1:14:36 But I can see a scenario,
1:14:38 but not on the balance of probability.
1:14:40 And that’s on the basis of one thing,
1:14:40 time of life.
1:14:41 Oh,
1:14:42 okay.
1:14:43 If he was 69,
1:14:43 not 79.
1:14:46 look,
1:14:47 he,
1:14:48 this is the great grift.
1:14:50 He’s,
1:14:52 he did what he never did in the first term.
1:14:53 He played in the margins.
1:14:56 He was able to take advantage of his brand and his businesses
1:14:58 and make a few bucks here and there,
1:14:59 but not the money he’s making now.
1:15:00 I mean,
1:15:01 the crypto,
1:15:02 everything he’s doing.
1:15:03 I mean,
1:15:03 I mean,
1:15:05 the kids now selling cell phones,
1:15:06 the whole thing,
1:15:07 monetizing everything,
1:15:09 coming out with new brands and new plans.
1:15:10 I mean,
1:15:10 he,
1:15:13 he finally is doing what he didn’t do.
1:15:16 the first term is now is he’s president of the United States,
1:15:17 but now he’s going to make a fortune.
1:15:19 So when he’s no longer president,
1:15:22 he’ll have a $400 million plan that has a billion dollars of upgrades on it.
1:15:25 That’ll be donated to the foundation that he can use for the rest of his life.
1:15:26 Thank you to the Qataris.
1:15:28 He will have billions and billions of dollars.
1:15:33 He’ll make the vast majority of his wealth in just a few years as president of the United States.
1:15:35 He will set himself up in that respect.
1:15:39 He’ll have hundreds and hundreds of millions of dollars of excess campaign cash,
1:15:42 which he’ll be able to use for whatever luxurious lifestyle he ever needs.
1:15:49 And I imagine that may satisfy him as long as he gets his person in to replace him
1:15:51 so they can continue that grift going forward.
1:15:53 The American people elected him.
1:15:54 They said,
1:15:55 that’s our guy.
1:15:58 That’s why my party needs to own up to that.
1:16:00 And this is existential.
1:16:02 We need to do better and we need to,
1:16:03 I’m,
1:16:04 that’s correct.
1:16:06 Are you faithful,
1:16:12 hopeful that the democratic party are going to wake up in time to field a serious campaign that can
1:16:15 compete with that very sort of dominant prevailing narrative?
1:16:17 I think it starts yesterday.
1:16:20 It’s not about the guy or gal on the white horse to come save the day.
1:16:22 It’s not about 2028.
1:16:23 It’s about the midterms,
1:16:24 which we just talked about.
1:16:27 It’s also about what happens to me now in the midterms.
1:16:28 It’s about the rule of law.
1:16:28 It’s about courts.
1:16:29 It’s about governors.
1:16:30 It’s about states.
1:16:31 It’s about mayors.
1:16:32 It’s about we,
1:16:32 the people,
1:16:33 citizens.
1:16:33 I mean,
1:16:34 look,
1:16:36 I was inspired in the No Kings Day.
1:16:37 I mean,
1:16:39 you guys know a little bit about Kings.
1:16:39 I mean,
1:16:40 the No Kings Day,
1:16:42 5 million people showed up on Trump’s birthday.
1:16:42 That gave me hope.
1:16:45 Which was a sort of a protest against authoritarianism.
1:16:46 Against,
1:16:46 against,
1:16:46 yeah,
1:16:47 it was,
1:16:47 look,
1:16:48 you know,
1:16:49 it was Justice Bray and I said,
1:16:50 in a democracy,
1:16:52 the most important office is not office of president,
1:16:53 governor,
1:16:53 mayor,
1:16:54 office of citizen.
1:16:55 You’re an entrepreneur.
1:16:58 How do you think your party have done with appealing to entrepreneurs?
1:16:58 Terribly.
1:16:59 You,
1:17:01 you preside over San Francisco,
1:17:04 which is globally we think of as the center point of innovation and technology.
1:17:05 Terrible.
1:17:05 But I,
1:17:09 I think the perception is that the democratic party don’t like entrepreneurs and the
1:17:10 Republicans,
1:17:11 it’s the home of entrepreneurship.
1:17:11 In fact,
1:17:12 all of my friends that are entrepreneurs,
1:17:13 if,
1:17:15 if they were being honest in private,
1:17:19 they would say that they lean towards the Republican party as it relates to
1:17:19 entrepreneurship.
1:17:20 And it’s amazing.
1:17:20 But you know,
1:17:21 it’s interesting since 1989,
1:17:24 the end of the cold war in the United States of America,
1:17:26 there’s been 52 million jobs created.
1:17:29 There have been three Republican administrations,
1:17:31 three democratic administrations.
1:17:32 So it’s fair to say,
1:17:34 how’d we do Republican administrations,
1:17:37 democratic administrations since 1989 and then the cold war,
1:17:38 the end of last year,
1:17:39 52 million jobs.
1:17:40 And you’d say,
1:17:41 well,
1:17:41 it’s maybe 50,
1:17:42 50,
1:17:44 maybe Republicans on the basis of your entrepreneur friends,
1:17:47 Republicans probably did 60% of those jobs were created.
1:17:47 Well,
1:17:52 50 of the 52 million were created under democratic administrations,
1:17:55 1.9 million jobs created during Republican administrations.
1:17:57 You look at the last three Republican presidents,
1:17:59 they have one thing in common,
1:17:59 recessions.
1:18:04 During the last administration under Joe Biden created 16.6 million jobs.
1:18:07 And I know a lot of those were COVID jobs,
1:18:10 but he blew past that after 18 months,
1:18:14 he created eight times more jobs than the last three Republican administrations combined.
1:18:21 But this economy does better job creation thrives during democratic ministries,
1:18:24 but perception is exactly what you said.
1:18:24 Yes.
1:18:25 So you,
1:18:25 you,
1:18:26 you gave me the logic.
1:18:27 I know,
1:18:29 but the brain isn’t orientated towards logic.
1:18:29 It’s narrative.
1:18:31 Where’s the economy in this country?
1:18:33 Why are we the fourth largest economy in the world?
1:18:35 We have four of the top seven market cap companies in the world.
1:18:38 NVIDIA just came with $4 trillion market cap.
1:18:41 We dominate 32 of the top 50 AI companies are right here in California.
1:18:44 We’re dominating every key industry.
1:18:45 We’re the biggest manufacturing state.
1:18:47 We dominate naming industry.
1:18:49 California dominates.
1:18:50 So why are entrepreneurs so pissed off?
1:18:51 Big blue state.
1:18:53 Why are entrepreneurs in your state pissed off?
1:18:56 71% of the GDP in this country are blue metro counties.
1:18:57 Elon left.
1:18:58 He went to Texas.
1:18:59 He left and came right back.
1:19:00 Where’s Grok?
1:19:00 Where’s,
1:19:02 where’s his R&D headquarters,
1:19:02 world headquarters?
1:19:04 Where are the vast majority of his jobs?
1:19:06 They’re SpaceX and Tesla.
1:19:11 He did that because he wanted to make a buck so he can avoid capital gains and avoid income
1:19:18 tax as he cashes out on 20 years of largesse by the taxpayers in California that created a
1:19:23 regulatory environment that created the industry because of our vehicle emission standards and
1:19:27 subsidize that industry with billions and billions of dollars of taxpayer money to make
1:19:28 Elon rich.
1:19:32 And then he turned his back so he didn’t have to pay capital gains.
1:19:33 But you know, I think that-
1:19:34 And by the way, he’s back.
1:19:36 All his AI, where’s all his AI?
1:19:37 It’s in California.
1:19:40 Where are all of his research and development folks all in California?
1:19:42 Everything you said might be true.
1:19:44 And I don’t know the details of it, so I can’t comment on that.
1:19:45 But again, perception.
1:19:46 I know.
1:19:47 Come back to perception.
1:19:47 I agree.
1:19:54 When I, in my, you know, over in the UK, when I watch the Democratic Party attacking these
1:20:01 really successful individuals and Biden attacking Elon Musk, look, I’m not going to go into
1:20:04 the details of the details of Elon Musk’s in his imperfections and other things.
1:20:05 Elon’s unique in that respect.
1:20:07 He makes it easy to attack both parties.
1:20:12 But let’s try and, let’s just try and hit this point, which is the Democratic Party tend
1:20:15 to be the ones who are criticizing the world’s most successful people.
1:20:16 I agree.
1:20:20 And saying that they’re this and this, and never pausing to say, actually, they did something
1:20:21 good as well.
1:20:26 And it’s the lack of nuance for me where I go, I can’t, I can’t trust that these people
1:20:27 are just pure evil.
1:20:31 I can’t trust that they’re just pure evil and only bad things, which is all I hear.
1:20:33 But on the right side, you might hear the opposite.
1:20:34 Where is the nuance here?
1:20:37 Like, can you say something positive about Elon Musk?
1:20:41 I’ve been, there’s been no bigger champion of Elon Musk for 20 years than I have.
1:20:43 I’ve been his biggest supporter.
1:20:45 In fact, I have one of the first Teslas right off the factory floor.
1:20:49 I’ve been his biggest promoter and supporter for decades and decades.
1:20:51 So I’ve said that over and over and over again.
1:20:53 It all tends to be negative about these entrepreneurs.
1:20:58 You know, you can understand from like, left politics around the world does seem to have
1:21:01 a certain disdain for successful entrepreneurs.
1:21:02 So let’s talk about that.
1:21:04 It is the worst part of my party.
1:21:05 I can’t stand it.
1:21:07 I do not begrudge other people’s success.
1:21:09 I’m inspired by it.
1:21:10 I admire it.
1:21:12 We opened this conversation up, all these heroes of mine.
1:21:15 Like, Richard Branson’s a hero of mine.
1:21:16 I love his success.
1:21:17 I love his audacity.
1:21:18 I love his ability to compete.
1:21:22 I love his ability to promote, create jobs, opportunity, wealth.
1:21:25 I think it is a big problem in the Democratic Party.
1:21:32 And we do not do enough to make this fundamental point, you know, that you cannot be pro-job
1:21:33 and anti-business, period.
1:21:35 And we need to say that.
1:21:36 And we need to demonstrate that.
1:21:38 Look, it drove me crazy.
1:21:42 Half my friends were up there, like maybe not even half, a lot more than half, were up there
1:21:44 with Donald Trump when he got sworn in.
1:21:52 And the symbolism of that was he’s got the back, and they have his back, of entrepreneurs and dream
1:21:53 makers in this country.
1:21:53 Yeah.
1:21:58 And I thought, Jesus, I mean, just that alone, where the hell was my party?
1:22:02 Why are we making a case for entrepreneurs and business leaders?
1:22:02 Do you respect Elon?
1:22:08 I’ve long respected him, but he’s changed in the last seven, eight years.
1:22:08 He just has.
1:22:12 And I say that with so many mutual friends, universally saying that.
1:22:13 In fact, I was one of the last to come around.
1:22:15 I’m like, no, he’s all right.
1:22:18 Even after he left, quote, unquote, Tesla left, which they never did.
1:22:20 They didn’t move a job.
1:22:22 They just changed the corporate headquarters.
1:22:24 He came back a few months later.
1:22:28 You can go online, and you can see a press conference I had when he moved his world R&D
1:22:30 headquarters back to California.
1:22:32 And I praised Elon.
1:22:33 And that wasn’t that long ago.
1:22:36 That was after, quote, unquote, he left the state of California.
1:22:38 But he’s different now.
1:22:40 Something’s changed.
1:22:44 And now, of course, it’s been exposed across the spectrum.
1:22:45 It’s not just from a prism of left and right.
1:22:47 But I’ve long admired him.
1:22:48 He created this entire market.
1:22:51 And he’s 100% right about this big, beautiful bill.
1:22:56 He’s 100% right that we’re doubling down on stupid, and we’re investing in the past as the
1:22:57 rest of the world is leaping forward.
1:23:01 China’s going to clean our clock as it relates to electric vehicles.
1:23:04 They’re going to clean our clock in terms of the future and dominate it because of some
1:23:08 of what Donald Trump has just done and rolling back progress that was made over the last
1:23:13 decade or so, particularly as it relates to what just occurred with the IRA and notably
1:23:17 with the infrastructure bill that the president of the United States, previous president, passed.
1:23:23 So I agree with him on a lot of things, but some character issues that I question.
1:23:26 I use his name, I guess, because he’s now so influential in this country, but he’s also
1:23:30 like a figurehead of like a certain, you know, of entrepreneurship and innovation.
1:23:32 So he’s, and now he owns X as well, so the platform’s so big.
1:23:38 Under, if you are ever to become president, what’s your attitude going to be towards entrepreneurs
1:23:39 like him?
1:23:43 And how is that different to the democratic history?
1:23:45 Celebrate, revere their entrepreneurialism.
1:23:46 We celebrate them.
1:23:47 We celebrate their contributions.
1:23:56 Again, we don’t, we don’t, I mean, I just, the idea that our party is branded by begrudging
1:23:57 other people’s success.
1:24:03 It’s devastating to, I think the, to the aspirations of what it means.
1:24:06 So much of what it means to be in America and California is the dream.
1:24:10 It’s attached to this notion of social mobility, that there’s a limitlessness in terms of being
1:24:11 and doing anything.
1:24:16 And so my job as governor and my job in any position would be to create the conditions
1:24:19 where people feel included, feel seen, where they can live their lives back.
1:24:23 What I said earlier, out loud, and we create the conditions where their success becomes
1:24:25 inevitable or irresistible.
1:24:31 And I think a lot of what leadership is, is climate control, not in the sustainable sense.
1:24:33 And it’s no longer command and control.
1:24:40 What I’m concerned about now is the command and control of crony capitalism coming back into
1:24:42 the United States of America because of Donald Trump.
1:24:43 You got to kiss the ring.
1:24:45 You don’t kiss the ring, it’s going to be punitive.
1:24:48 You want an exemption on the tariffs?
1:24:50 Just make a call, or rather, better yet, make a contribution.
1:24:53 Maybe you make a contribution indirectly by buying some crypto.
1:24:56 And that contribution then gets the benefit.
1:25:01 Maybe you make a deal overseas on weapons and we’ll take care of the golf course.
1:25:04 Maybe we’ll take care of the new two towers for the family.
1:25:07 That’s what’s happened under Trump in just six months.
1:25:08 To a degree, never.
1:25:13 It’s unimaginable in the United States to see it at this scale, in this level.
1:25:16 And that’s, to me, not free enterprise.
1:25:22 I’ve just invested millions into this and become a co-owner of the company.
1:25:23 It’s a company called Ketone IQ.
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1:25:30 I started talking about ketosis on this podcast and the fact that I’m very low carb, very,
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1:25:55 The impact this had on my ability to articulate myself, on my focus, on my workouts, on my mood,
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1:26:29 Is the world safer now under Trump than it was under Biden?
1:26:30 There’s nuance to that.
1:26:33 I don’t think it’s a binary safe.
1:26:34 I mean, I think-
1:26:38 In terms of war and the probability of a World War III, are we-
1:26:41 I think it’s more unpredictable than it’s been.
1:26:46 I worry about nuclear proliferation.
1:26:49 I worry about AI.
1:26:51 Biden wasn’t doing so well.
1:26:55 When I watched that debate and he was struggling over his words and couldn’t be coherent with
1:26:57 sentences, I did-
1:26:59 I was his chief surrogate that night, so-
1:27:00 Chief surrogate?
1:27:00 Yeah.
1:27:03 I mean, I was there representing the campaign to make a case-
1:27:04 Oh, so you were there?
1:27:05 For the-
1:27:07 I actually think I saw you afterwards doing interviews.
1:27:09 I was doing my best to have-
1:27:13 And you go home with a guy who brought you to the dance.
1:27:20 And, you know, I was proud to support him, but that was a difficult night.
1:27:21 Did you realize in that-
1:27:23 Was that the moment you realized that he wasn’t-
1:27:24 Right when he walked out on stage.
1:27:25 Doing well.
1:27:26 I was in the back.
1:27:30 I’ll never forget physically standing up as I was watching and going, ooh.
1:27:31 And I turned to my staff.
1:27:33 I said, something’s off.
1:27:34 Right when he walked on stage.
1:27:35 Felt it.
1:27:40 It was the only time I saw that was at a fundraiser here that he had after he had no sleep.
1:27:45 And I just, we all just literally assumed it was just jet lag and he had flown back and forth
1:27:49 and over a week back and forth to Europe twice and he had a late night.
1:27:52 And I thought, boy, he’s just not on.
1:27:57 Like, and that was in private, not just his public comments with President Obama that night.
1:28:03 There was a lot of talk rhetoric that there was an internal desire to overthrow him around
1:28:07 that time because you could see on TV he was struggling and in the polls and Donald Trump
1:28:07 was reveling in it.
1:28:11 And then I heard this narrative coming up that, you know, Nancy Pelosi and the Democratic
1:28:15 Party were having private conversations and telling him to step down and forcing him out.
1:28:18 All cards on the table, 100% truth.
1:28:19 Is there any truth in that?
1:28:20 Yeah.
1:28:22 No, a lot of that was happening.
1:28:26 I mean, a lot of people were, I mean, there was a phone tree that lit up that night.
1:28:30 There was a text tree, phone tree, email, just blew up.
1:28:31 Saying?
1:28:32 People were in panic.
1:28:34 Total, full-fledged panic.
1:28:44 And there was a need and desire to know that he was okay and that this was momentary or
1:28:46 discovered there was something else.
1:28:46 Maybe he had a cold.
1:28:47 Maybe there’s some other issue.
1:28:53 And it led to those kind of conversations that many have been made public, many private.
1:29:00 Led to meetings with Democratic governors in the White House with the president around the table.
1:29:01 Including you.
1:29:01 Including me.
1:29:05 Mr. President, tell us, you know, what’s your path?
1:29:05 How are you feeling?
1:29:11 Some honest back and forth with a few governors that challenged him a little bit more than one
1:29:13 would have expected with sort of protocol within the party.
1:29:19 And yeah, a real desire, obviously, to turn the page.
1:29:25 And ultimately that manifested with a decision he made and led to, obviously, our nominee,
1:29:26 his vice president.
1:29:30 He was effectively pushed out of the party by pressure.
1:29:31 Yeah.
1:29:32 Because he wanted to continue.
1:29:33 That was clear.
1:29:33 He said that.
1:29:34 Yeah.
1:29:36 He believed he was the only one that could beat Donald Trump.
1:29:37 Yeah.
1:29:40 Having beat him once, he was convinced he could do it again.
1:29:44 He believed that his record of the lowest black unemployment, Hispanic unemployment, lowest
1:29:49 unemployment for women, the best economy in 60 years as it relates to jobs and GDP growth,
1:29:54 inflation that was cooling from 9.1 and was moving in the right direction with the Chips
1:29:58 and Science Act, with the infrastructure bill, the IRA, 400 bipartisan bills.
1:30:01 He felt lowest uninsured rates.
1:30:05 They felt like things directionally were moving despite the inflation scars.
1:30:07 And then he can make that case.
1:30:07 He felt that.
1:30:08 He really did feel that way.
1:30:13 A lot of the narrative was that you were going to step in potentially at last minute.
1:30:18 And I know in your head, you must have been mulling and thinking about going back and
1:30:20 forward, about different possibilities and outcomes.
1:30:22 Things were moving so quickly and there was such little time.
1:30:27 I saw your name mentioned all the time associated with stepping in to replace him.
1:30:32 No, but I was also the one that was out there still campaigning for him after everyone else
1:30:33 had turned his back.
1:30:38 But you must be in your head at night thinking things could change.
1:30:42 You talked about what shaped me, those moments.
1:30:50 When I say no daylight, when I say, you know, I got to make up for disappointing this guy
1:30:52 and myself, when I’m in, I’m in.
1:30:56 And I’ll tell you, the coin of the realm in politics is loyalty, period, full stop.
1:30:57 Willie Brown taught me that.
1:31:01 And Joe Biden, I was going to have his back.
1:31:04 So I literally, I’m telling you, look me in the eye.
1:31:04 Yeah.
1:31:06 Because I know it’s cynical.
1:31:08 Did not think along those lines.
1:31:16 After he dropped out, those minutes later, and my cell phone blew up, I confess that
1:31:19 there were a number of people that wondered.
1:31:25 And I imagine you can, you know, there were plenty of people sort of circling and go, well,
1:31:26 maybe this is the moment.
1:31:28 Once he dropped out.
1:31:32 I, to be candid, I’m going to get in trouble for saying this because I haven’t said it public.
1:31:33 I was a little angry.
1:31:34 I didn’t get a heads up.
1:31:35 You didn’t get a heads up that he was dropping out.
1:31:38 Just give me like a text, two minutes, because I was embarrassed.
1:31:40 I was sitting with a group of people.
1:31:43 I was, and I was like, my phone rang.
1:31:44 I was like, wow.
1:31:49 So I was, my first reaction, honestly, was like, geez, man, all this stuff I did for this
1:31:50 guy, I didn’t know, not even a heads up.
1:31:53 And first missed call, true story.
1:31:55 I didn’t even know it was an unknown number.
1:31:57 I didn’t even look at it for about six hours.
1:31:58 And it was Kamala.
1:31:59 Kamala?
1:32:00 She only made the call to me.
1:32:01 Saying what?
1:32:02 Just a voicemail.
1:32:03 Love to talk.
1:32:04 About what?
1:32:06 She was running.
1:32:11 So it’s, you know, and a few hours later, I put out a press release supporting her candidacy.
1:32:15 What should the Democratic Party have done with the wisdom of hindsight in that moment instead
1:32:17 of just putting Kamala straight in?
1:32:18 All geniuses in hindsight.
1:32:21 I don’t know what you could have possibly done with just such a short runway.
1:32:25 You had the vice president of the United States.
1:32:27 You had the apparatus that was built within the party.
1:32:32 You had the legal ability for her because it was the Biden-Harris campaign to transfer a
1:32:33 lot of that.
1:32:33 Yeah.
1:32:34 You had little time.
1:32:37 You would have opened up to a circular firing squad.
1:32:38 But it didn’t work.
1:32:39 As it relates to the party.
1:32:41 In hindsight, it didn’t work.
1:32:45 What could you have done with the benefit of hindsight that might have worked?
1:32:45 Yeah.
1:32:46 Would have, could have, should have.
1:32:47 I don’t live in that.
1:32:51 I think, but, but I live where we, where we were exploring a moment ago.
1:32:58 And that is in reflection more broadly of where the party is, less the individuals.
1:33:00 And I think that’s our biggest mistake.
1:33:02 We’re so consumed by the individual.
1:33:03 Identity politics.
1:33:08 Yeah, but, well, issues related, identity politics broadly, but it’s not just the person.
1:33:08 Oh, okay.
1:33:09 It’s who we represent.
1:33:14 And there’s a word we didn’t use earlier, but you used it in relationship to Trump.
1:33:16 Weakness versus strength.
1:33:23 And I’ll tell you, to me, at the core, the end of the day, to me, it’s that distinction
1:33:27 that perhaps says more things in more ways on more days about where our two parties are.
1:33:31 Donald Trump exudes, strangely, strength.
1:33:34 I think he’s weakness masquerading as strength.
1:33:37 Our party appears weak for many, too many.
1:33:41 And I remember Bill Clinton, after shellacking, we got crushed in a midterm.
1:33:47 And he said, given the choice, Bill Clinton said, the American people always support strong
1:33:50 and wrong versus weak and right.
1:33:52 There’s something about that.
1:33:56 I think this notion of strength, I think it goes to young boys.
1:34:00 I think it goes to Trump and Trumpism, what he sells, what he represents to people.
1:34:05 I think in that distinction, maybe is a pathway for our party.
1:34:10 And my last question before I get to the book, which is the question left by our last guest,
1:34:17 is there’s a high probability, which I’m aware of, that I’m sat with the future president of
1:34:18 the United States.
1:34:19 There’s a probability.
1:34:22 Even if it’s a 1% probability, it’s an extraordinary opportunity to ask this question.
1:34:23 I’ll give you 1%.
1:34:24 Yeah, even if it’s a 1%.
1:34:26 But I looked at the odds before I walked out.
1:34:27 So I know it’s higher.
1:34:34 Under you, if I took that Men in Black little pen thing that erases memory, and I erase my
1:34:38 memory of the Democratic Party, and I erase the memory of the Democratic Party for all of my
1:34:42 audience watching, and you have a clean slate to redefine that party.
1:34:46 And we don’t remember or we don’t reflect on the past.
1:34:52 And that party is coming up in 2028 against the Republican MAGA-centric party, maybe led by
1:34:52 J.D.
1:34:53 Vance.
1:34:56 What is that proposition?
1:34:58 I’m a young man, but not just for young men, for everybody.
1:35:00 What is the proposition you’re putting forward?
1:35:02 What does it sound like?
1:35:06 And I don’t want any of the political stuff.
1:35:06 No, no, no.
1:35:07 What does it sound like?
1:35:15 And you can appreciate, I hope, that I don’t have the kind of answer that’s worthy of that
1:35:16 question.
1:35:18 Because it’s a spectacular question.
1:35:23 And it’s fundamentally the question that needs to be answered by whoever is running for president
1:35:24 of the United States.
1:35:27 And it needs to be done so congruently.
1:35:28 It can’t be to your point, bullshit.
1:35:33 It can’t be a poll-tested focus group, a bunch of words and pablum.
1:35:34 What does your heart say?
1:35:35 You have to feel it.
1:35:42 In so many respects, what we just ended on, I think this notion of the dream, I think there’s
1:35:49 something about why we’re together that is sort of the intersection of entrepreneurialism,
1:36:00 aspiration, inspiration, growth, opportunity, inclusion, that begins to answer and flesh
1:36:02 out, or create an answer that fleshes out.
1:36:06 And it’s in that space that I’m consumed.
1:36:12 I’m consumed by contribution and service, this notion of service, communitarianism, this notion
1:36:14 that we’re all better off and we’re all better off.
1:36:18 I think public service should be a requirement, national service.
1:36:27 But it’s in that space that ultimately, I think, an answer will emerge.
1:36:33 And there’s lots of, it’s funny because politics, more and more I’ve learned about it, is this
1:36:38 battle between rationality and logic and then just emotion and perception, I guess.
1:36:39 Exactly right.
1:36:43 So you talked about some of the great things the Democratic Party have done, but it’s crazy
1:36:48 how the headlines will be dominated by some issue around, quote unquote, woke ideology.
1:36:49 100%.
1:36:53 And it almost becomes the case that people care, they’re more emotionally compelled by
1:36:58 this idea that their kids in schools are being taught something that is corrupting their mind
1:37:00 versus how the economy is doing or jobs.
1:37:00 I know.
1:37:04 And there was, it was, it’s, and I think we struggled to recognize that.
1:37:05 How do you recognize that?
1:37:09 They were shape-shifting, CRT, ESG, DAI, anything with three letters.
1:37:10 I mean, we were on our heels.
1:37:11 We were on the receiving end of all this.
1:37:13 We’re constantly on the defense.
1:37:15 We got, I love what President Obama just said.
1:37:17 He said, we got to get more aggressive, get on the offense.
1:37:18 I’ve been saying this for years.
1:37:19 What does that mean?
1:37:21 Meaning we’ve got to shape the narrative.
1:37:22 Illusion rules.
1:37:23 Facts don’t matter.
1:37:27 You’ve got these propaganda networks weaponizing grievance 24-7.
1:37:33 And we’re constantly responding to these, these, these, these, these culture wars.
1:37:34 And let me be specific on that.
1:37:40 I think, you know, the governor of Utah said it best, never has so much attention been focused
1:37:43 on so few as it relates to the issue of trans athletes.
1:37:44 He’s 100% right.
1:37:45 But there’s also truism.
1:37:48 And it’s part of, you know, part of being in business.
1:37:51 You’re nothing but a mirror of your consistent thoughts.
1:37:53 Whatever you focus on, you’re going to find more of.
1:37:58 And so if 24-7, that’s all that’s coming from you, California, this, California, that California
1:38:01 crack up, everyone’s leaving, worst place to do everything else.
1:38:02 You start to believe it.
1:38:03 You start, start to shape your conversation.
1:38:05 Then you start finding proof points.
1:38:06 Oh, there’s an Enkoma’s encampment.
1:38:08 Oh, I just read about this crime down at the Walmart.
1:38:12 And it’s just, everyone’s leaving because, because Elon left everyone.
1:38:15 So I think narrative matters to your point.
1:38:17 Trump understands that better than anybody.
1:38:22 He repeats things over in, in the, you know, the vernacular of my buddy, Marshawn Lynch,
1:38:26 over and over and over and over and over and over, over, over again.
1:38:30 So I think flooding the zone in that respect, you are a master at it.
1:38:31 I mean, dealing with Jesus, seriously.
1:38:37 I mean, of all people should hire you, my friend, that understand data and analytics,
1:38:46 communication, how to target, broader message, values, brand, strength, and how to sell.
1:38:46 You got to sell it.
1:38:49 I mean, we’re sitting there talking about the Chips and Science Act.
1:38:51 No one knows what the hell you’re even talking about.
1:38:53 We didn’t sell what we were delivering.
1:38:54 I think we have to have a…
1:38:55 We need to rebrand it.
1:38:55 Yeah.
1:38:59 And we, and it’s also, look, part of the answer to the question you asked earlier is also,
1:39:02 you know, Ezra Klein and others talk about, but abundance mindset.
1:39:05 We’ve had this scarcity mindset, this sort of zero-sum mindset.
1:39:08 And as an entrepreneur, you don’t have a scarcity mindset.
1:39:13 And I think as part of the brand building of our party, it’s not just in terms of housing
1:39:18 and issues related to what Ezra speaks in terms of abundance mindset, but it’s that growth abundance
1:39:19 mindset.
1:39:24 And I think that’s part of, when I talk about the dream, I’m also saying this, by the way,
1:39:26 from the prison that no other governor can claim.
1:39:29 You have the American dream and you have the California dream.
1:39:31 There’s no other state that’s attached to a dream.
1:39:37 And I think there’s something evocative in that because that inspires a journey that we can
1:39:39 be on, a journey that we can go on together.
1:39:42 And so I’m captured by the vernacular of the 60s.
1:39:46 And Bobby Kennedy was my political hero, Sarge Shriver and Kennedy.
1:39:52 Everything about that, solving for ignorance and poverty and disease and this notion of going
1:39:55 on a journey together, that was what the moon was all about.
1:39:57 And we can see ourselves on that journey.
1:40:02 Right now, you know, it’s the blue versus the red team.
1:40:06 This is a war within in this country.
1:40:10 And I think whoever runs the next four years or three years, it’s about stitching this
1:40:13 back together and going on a journey together.
1:40:16 Because as I say all the time, divorce is not an option.
1:40:19 There’s just two other things that sprung to mind as you’re talking is, I’ve always wondered
1:40:21 in California, specifically in LA.
1:40:22 I told you I moved here.
1:40:24 I just moved into my place yesterday, in fact.
1:40:28 I was in a CVS, I think it was, and I was trying to get some toothpaste.
1:40:29 Horrible, right?
1:40:30 Yeah, I couldn’t believe it.
1:40:34 I said to the team, this was like six months ago, I was like, I went to a CVS to get some
1:40:34 toothpaste.
1:40:37 And I got to the toothpaste, and it’s in a cage.
1:40:40 And I said to the lady there, I was like, why is the toothpaste in a cage?
1:40:42 And she goes, look.
1:40:48 And she points down the aisle, and there was a gentleman, a homeless gentleman, who was stuffing
1:40:49 things in his sock.
1:40:50 Yeah.
1:40:54 And I thought, fucking hell, like, if I look over there, there’s these mansions in the
1:40:55 hills.
1:40:59 And if I’m in the CVS, the toothpaste’s in a cage because the homeless people are stuffing
1:41:00 things into their socks.
1:41:01 Yeah.
1:41:03 Is that fixable?
1:41:04 Yes.
1:41:05 And what caused it?
1:41:11 Well, now you’re dealing with larger systemic issues that go back decades and decades, and
1:41:13 the has and have nots, and that goes to-
1:41:14 Drug addiction.
1:41:14 Yeah.
1:41:19 And the specific issues around homelessness, and that gets to deeper issues about mental health,
1:41:22 behavior, health issues, affordability, housing crisis.
1:41:22 But look-
1:41:23 Is it fixable?
1:41:23 Yes.
1:41:25 By definition, it’s fixable.
1:41:26 Why does no one fix it?
1:41:27 It’s being fixed.
1:41:27 Is it?
1:41:29 And progress is literally being made.
1:41:32 We’re seeing significant reductions, back-to-back years in crime.
1:41:35 We’re seeing significant reductions in organized retail theft.
1:41:38 We’re seeing significant reductions, including just here in LA.
1:41:42 They announced 17.5% decline over two years in the number of people out in the streets and
1:41:44 sidewalks and unsheltered homeless.
1:41:46 That was literally announced yesterday by the mayor.
1:41:48 So there is progress in all these cases.
1:41:49 So absolutely, it’s solvable.
1:41:53 You’re getting more radical on this point as well, because I saw the announcement you
1:41:56 made, and I watched very closely a couple of years ago when you announced that you’re
1:41:57 going to have to get these encampments off the street.
1:41:58 Well, I’m done with it.
1:41:59 It’s exhausting.
1:42:00 Clean them up.
1:42:01 It’s the job of a mayor.
1:42:03 My job as mayor, former mayor of San Francisco.
1:42:05 Do your job.
1:42:06 Clean them up.
1:42:07 Get people off the street.
1:42:08 There’s nothing-
1:42:11 Stepping over people on the streets and sidewalks is not compassion.
1:42:14 And so we have flooded the zones in terms of support and resources.
1:42:15 Now it’s about performance.
1:42:20 I have the great honor of working with Prince William in the UK on a homelessness initiative,
1:42:21 so I know the complexities of it.
1:42:25 And some people think of it as just a housing issue, but having spent time with people at
1:42:27 risk of homelessness, I know it’s a confidence issue.
1:42:28 It’s a mental health issue.
1:42:30 It’s a jobs issue.
1:42:32 It’s a pathways into employment issue.
1:42:33 It’s a very, very complicated issue.
1:42:36 So that’s actually blown my mind, homewards have, in terms of-
1:42:37 I mean, I say it all the time.
1:42:38 Shelters solve sleep.
1:42:42 Housing and supportive services solve homelessness.
1:42:45 You’ve got to deal with the underlying reasons people are out in the streets and sidewalks
1:42:46 in the first place.
1:42:52 And so it’s about this comprehensive integration of care, whole-person care, as we describe it.
1:42:55 We’ve just gone through the most significant mental health reforms in U.S. history.
1:43:02 We have flooded the zone with more support, 26,000 new units of behavioral health housing.
1:43:07 We are producing and procuring in the state of California in real time with zoning reforms so we
1:43:12 can cite them, workforce development reforms, and we’re reorganizing the integration around mental
1:43:17 health in the silos and people with drug and alcohol addictions and the integration.
1:43:23 And this is the source to me of so much of my real passion in terms of my day job.
1:43:25 And you’re going to see real progress in this state.
1:43:28 Well, I did do some research beforehand and I can see that there’s some really significant
1:43:31 actions taken and they are nuanced and complex in their solution.
1:43:32 So that’s very, very encouraging.
1:43:36 And it’s encouraging to meet someone who understands the complexities of this problem because actually
1:43:39 the narrative that will win out in an election cycle is going to be emotional.
1:43:40 It’s going to be simple.
1:43:46 And so I think everybody should look out for emotional and simple answers and exclude them
1:43:47 whenever you hear them.
1:43:52 Last question before I ask you this one is all the headlines at the moment are about Jeffrey
1:43:52 Epstein.
1:43:58 And the way that that’s been handled really is the thing that I find so fascinating because
1:44:03 on the way into the presidential office and into those big roles, there were certain promises
1:44:06 made about the Epstein files and it would be released.
1:44:08 And if you vote for me, then I will release these files.
1:44:11 And now there’s nothing to see.
1:44:11 Yeah.
1:44:13 What happened there?
1:44:15 Well, they lied.
1:44:17 They lied to you then or they lied to you now, period.
1:44:19 Someone lied about this.
1:44:22 They dangled this in order to get votes and they lied to people.
1:44:23 They used people.
1:44:26 And someone needs to be held to account.
1:44:30 And look, I could be cynical about it.
1:44:34 I could be very political about it and say it’s interesting when Elon, we brought up Elon,
1:44:38 when Elon Musk tweets something out saying Trump’s on the list.
1:44:42 And a few days later, there is no list.
1:44:43 You can be cynical about that.
1:44:46 It leads to some open-ended questions.
1:44:48 What would you have done if you were Trump in that situation?
1:44:52 So say that you’d been elected and the public demanding to see this list.
1:44:53 What would you have done?
1:44:55 One thing is obvious.
1:44:58 I know Pam Bondi well, the attorney general.
1:44:59 We’ve known each other over the years.
1:45:01 She doesn’t move without Trump.
1:45:11 If she’s fired, she’s the fall person because there’s no question she was directed by Trump to say what she said.
1:45:19 She would not have, period, full stop, done something independent of the president on the Epstein files.
1:45:20 So Trump is the person that’s…
1:45:22 So one has to acknowledge that.
1:45:25 So then it begs additional questions.
1:45:33 Why was she told not to release the files unless, A, there’s no files and they made it up the entire damn time,
1:45:41 just like they made up Obama’s birth certificate, just like they make up most things most days, my humble position.
1:45:42 I think that’s very plausible.
1:45:44 It could be very simple.
1:45:45 It could be as simple as that.
1:45:46 They started the conspiracy.
1:45:46 They fucked it up.
1:45:47 They started.
1:45:49 They’re covering their ass and they’re just like, shit, we got caught.
1:45:50 We use this.
1:45:52 We sort of squeeze this out.
1:45:53 We got everything we needed.
1:45:54 We’re in power.
1:45:57 Or it’s more insidious than that.
1:45:59 And look, the one thing is just not even…
1:46:03 It’s just simple truth.
1:46:05 Epstein and Trump were close.
1:46:06 They were.
1:46:07 It wasn’t just a few photographs.
1:46:09 They were close.
1:46:10 That’s a fact.
1:46:11 Sorry, Donald.
1:46:12 Just a fact.
1:46:16 So, look, I get why this outrages folks.
1:46:17 I think it’s interesting.
1:46:19 It’s outraged some of the core base.
1:46:22 I enjoy the hell out of it.
1:46:24 I’m just…
1:46:24 I spoke…
1:46:27 That was my private voice out loud as a Democrat.
1:46:29 And, yeah.
1:46:33 And I hope our party gins this up much more as they would.
1:46:35 If you get into office, people are going to say, release the list.
1:46:37 I mean, if there’s a…
1:46:39 They are, they’re going to say…
1:46:40 I will commit to release the list or what?
1:46:40 Yeah.
1:46:43 Unless there’s some national security secret here or something.
1:46:48 And I know that leads to speculation about Mossad and other speculation.
1:46:50 I mean, was he on the foreign intelligence list?
1:46:53 And is there real implications to our national security?
1:46:54 Why did he make all his money?
1:46:59 I mean, I’ve got enough problems with homelessness and housing in California, worry about Jeffrey
1:46:59 Epstein.
1:47:02 But, hey, they created this mess.
1:47:04 Now they got to clean it up.
1:47:09 Governor, we have a closing tradition on this podcast where the last guest leaves a question
1:47:11 for the next guest, not knowing who they’re leaving it for.
1:47:15 And the question left for you is…
1:47:20 Have you received a sign from beyond?
1:47:23 That’s good.
1:47:28 In the spirit of Epstein and sort of conspiracies, I immediately go to…
1:47:36 Yeah, look, I don’t know about that, but there’s a spiritual aspect to me, meaning I’m a person
1:47:36 of faith.
1:47:44 I grew up in the church, went to a Jesuit university, quote the Bible often, many parts, one body.
1:47:51 So I feel that connection to something bigger than myself, if for no other reason that I’m
1:47:51 desperate for it.
1:47:55 The person who wrote the question, I’ll tell you, give you a little bit of a clue, they’re
1:47:59 referring to a late loved one that passed away.
1:47:59 More specific?
1:48:00 Yeah.
1:48:01 Fascinating.
1:48:03 I’ve never…
1:48:07 You feel people’s presence when you hear a song.
1:48:13 You feel people’s presence when you, you know, during season of the year.
1:48:19 And, you know, I will say, all right, I will say, you’ve got me.
1:48:23 And this was uncanny.
1:48:28 My father passed away in his house in San Francisco.
1:48:37 I came after, in this case, there was no assisted suicide, but I came right after and visited him.
1:48:41 On, right outside the window was a peregrine falcon.
1:48:43 Can’t make this up.
1:48:46 My father was passionate about peregrine falcons.
1:48:47 I’ve never seen a peregrine…
1:48:49 I grew up in San Francisco in my life.
1:48:53 It was a peregrine falcon, right on the balcony, right after his death.
1:48:56 My sister and I looked at each other, said, you can’t…
1:48:58 That was the sign.
1:49:00 True story.
1:49:03 There’s my answer.
1:49:06 Thank you.
1:49:08 Thank you so much.
1:49:08 I am…
1:49:12 I’m really encouraged by the example you’re setting for so many reasons.
1:49:17 And one of the biggest reasons that I’m super encouraged by the example you’re setting is
1:49:22 because you’re doing what I’ve wished for so long so many people in your position,
1:49:24 your political position, would do, which is to speak to the other side.
1:49:31 But also to get out there and to have conversations like this in this new medium of podcasting that
1:49:33 is unfiltered, uncensored, and is long form.
1:49:37 And I just, I always longed to see that from the Democratic Party, but they’ve hidden behind
1:49:42 PR and sanitized messaging for so long.
1:49:43 And you’re bucking the trend.
1:49:47 I was so happy when you sat down with Charlie Kirk because those are the conversations I want
1:49:48 to see.
1:49:52 And actually, being in the same room made me both realize that there’s a lot you have in
1:49:57 common and also allowed me to compare the fundamental differences in person.
1:50:03 But also, it’s so wonderful to get to know you as a man and where you come from.
1:50:04 Yeah, I appreciate it.
1:50:05 Because now I understand.
1:50:07 I understand your motivations.
1:50:11 I understand the decisions that I think you’d make, you know, going forward as president.
1:50:15 And it feels like a great honor for you to have given me this time.
1:50:19 But also, as I said, for your team not to tell me, you can’t talk about this, you can’t
1:50:20 talk about that.
1:50:22 And just to let me talk about whatever I wanted to talk about.
1:50:24 So thank you so much.
1:50:28 And thank you for having me in your home state now of California.
1:50:30 I guess I’m a kind of a half semi-resident or something.
1:50:36 And yeah, I’m going to be watching with much curiosity to see how it plays out.
1:50:38 And you present a new vision for America.
1:50:41 I highly recommend everybody goes and checks out your podcast as well.
1:50:42 I’m going to link it on the screen and below.
1:50:45 This is Gavin Newsom, where you do exactly that.
1:50:50 You sit with people and have these conversations that are so unfortunately rare with people you
1:50:51 often disagree with.
1:50:54 It’s a fantastic show and it always has me absolutely hooked.
1:50:58 And your book here as well, I’m going to recommend because it really shaped how I think about your
1:50:59 philosophy.
1:51:07 It’s called Citizenville, How to Take the Town Square Digital and Reinvent Government, which
1:51:09 talks a lot about social media and the role it plays.
1:51:10 Thank you so much, Gavin.
1:51:11 It’s been an honor.
1:51:11 It’s been my honor.
1:51:12 Thank you so much.
1:51:12 Really grateful.
1:51:13 Thank you so much for the time.
1:51:14 Appreciate it.
1:51:17 Just give me 30 seconds of your time.
1:51:19 Two things I wanted to say.
1:51:23 The first thing is a huge thank you for listening and tuning into the show week after week.
1:51:24 It means the world to all of us.
1:51:28 And this really is a dream that we absolutely never had and couldn’t have imagined getting
1:51:29 to this place.
1:51:33 But secondly, it’s a dream where we feel like we’re only just getting started.
1:51:38 And if you enjoy what we do here, please join the 24% of people that listen to this podcast
1:51:41 regularly and follow us on this app.
1:51:43 Here’s a promise I’m going to make to you.
1:51:48 I’m going to do everything in my power to make this show as good as I can now and into the
1:51:48 future.
1:51:50 We’re going to deliver the guests that you want me to speak to.
1:51:54 And we’re going to continue to keep doing all of the things you love about this show.
1:51:55 Thank you.