#182 Todd Herman: Unleashing Your Secret Identity

0:00:02 We can, especially at the outset of goal setting,
0:00:04 be wildly ambitious about what it is
0:00:05 that we want to accomplish.
0:00:07 So rather than setting a year-long goal,
0:00:10 which we might feel an instinct to do,
0:00:12 instead, by the same token,
0:00:15 if we see ourselves through these more negative labels,
0:00:17 then we might also act in ways that align with that
0:00:19 and needlessly hold ourselves back.
0:00:21 It’s a mechanism by which you can get people
0:00:23 to open their minds up without them feeling
0:00:26 like they’re threatening the entire moral compass
0:00:28 that they live by.
0:00:30 So that we don’t have to employ willpower,
0:00:33 we should really focus on the way that we design our lives
0:00:35 and the choice architecture of our lives.
0:00:37 What we’re talking about here are aspirational identities,
0:00:39 right, and we don’t want to get in our own way.
0:00:41 I want to switch gears just a little bit
0:00:43 to something you said when you were in the White House
0:00:44 that has fascinated me,
0:00:48 which is, how does how we frame our goals
0:00:50 affect our ability to accomplish our goals?
0:00:53 So one example of this is that…
0:00:55 (gentle music)
0:01:02 Welcome to The Knowledge Project,
0:01:03 a podcast about mastering the best
0:01:05 of what other people have already figured out
0:01:08 so you can apply their insights to your life.
0:01:10 I’m your host, Shane Parish.
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0:01:44 Today, my guest is Maya Shankar, PhD.
0:01:45 She’s a brilliant cognitive scientist
0:01:48 who worked in the White House Behavioral Science Group.
0:01:50 She’s the host of the podcast
0:01:52 called A Slight Change of Plans.
0:01:54 I really wanted to talk to Maya
0:01:56 about the idea of identity.
0:01:58 What is it?
0:02:01 The limitations and advantages of choosing them,
0:02:03 how they affect our ability to accomplish our goals,
0:02:06 how our identity affects our ability to learn from others
0:02:09 and how it impacts our politics.
0:02:12 Should we keep our identity small or should we expand it?
0:02:14 These are questions that we talk about.
0:02:15 You’ll walk away from this episode
0:02:19 with a clear understanding of when your identity helps you,
0:02:20 where it may be limiting you
0:02:23 and with practical tips on using it
0:02:25 to set and accomplish your goals.
0:02:27 You’ll also learn that slight differences
0:02:29 in how we frame those goals
0:02:32 can make a huge difference in whether we accomplish them.
0:02:35 It’s time to listen and learn.
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0:04:15 – I wanna start with the almost unbelievable story
0:04:17 of how you got into Juilliard.
0:04:20 – When I was six years old, I started playing the violin.
0:04:23 And within a few years, I think my parents realized
0:04:27 that my dreams and ambitions were surpassing
0:04:30 whatever connections they had in the classical music world.
0:04:33 My dad’s a physicist, my mom helps students get green cards.
0:04:35 This was really not in their domain.
0:04:39 And so, one day I remember my mom and I were in New York
0:04:41 for a different violin audition.
0:04:45 And she knew that the Juilliard School of Music in New York
0:04:47 was what I had my sights set on.
0:04:48 Even though, by the way, Shane,
0:04:51 I absolutely no chance of getting it at all at that time.
0:04:53 That was my dream.
0:04:55 And so we were in New York and my mom just looked at me
0:04:58 and said, “Hey, why don’t we just stop by Juilliard?”
0:04:59 And you can see what it looks like
0:05:01 and it’ll just be a fun experience.
0:05:03 And so we walk over to Juilliard
0:05:07 and then as we’re passing by the front door,
0:05:10 my mom looked at me kind of mischievously
0:05:12 and said, “Why don’t we just go in?”
0:05:16 And I remember thinking that she was totally nuts.
0:05:17 I mean, what did that even mean?
0:05:19 We did not have an invite, right?
0:05:20 I was not a student there.
0:05:21 But she said, “Let’s just go in there.
0:05:23 What’s the worst thing that can happen?”
0:05:25 And so we walked in there
0:05:27 and my mom, you know, let the security guards know
0:05:29 that her daughter dreamed of coming here
0:05:30 and could we just check it out?
0:05:33 And we ended up running into a fellow student
0:05:35 and her mom and my mom was chatting with them
0:05:37 and expressing that I was really interested
0:05:38 in playing the violin.
0:05:41 And within just a few minutes,
0:05:41 my mom had asked them
0:05:43 if they were willing to introduce me
0:05:44 to their violin teacher.
0:05:46 Then fast forward, they were really gracious
0:05:47 and said, “Yes.”
0:05:48 And then 20 minutes after that,
0:05:52 I was auditioning on the spot for this Juilliard teacher.
0:05:54 Just looking back, I mean, yeah,
0:05:58 it was a pretty wild story of just waltzing in there,
0:06:01 but it was such a formative lesson for me
0:06:04 about the importance of trying to be entrepreneurial
0:06:06 and trying to just be a bit of a go-getter
0:06:09 when opportunities are not just presented to you.
0:06:11 And in this particular case,
0:06:13 it carried a lot of importance
0:06:15 because when I did play for the teacher that day,
0:06:17 he was pretty forthcoming about the fact
0:06:19 that I did not have any chance of getting in
0:06:21 at my current ability level,
0:06:22 but he believed in me.
0:06:24 He thought I had potential
0:06:26 and that with the proper training, I might have a shot.
0:06:27 And so he invited me to study
0:06:29 at his summer music program that year
0:06:31 for just, you know, five or so weeks.
0:06:33 And so my mom and I packed up our bags
0:06:36 and we went to Colorado and then we studied with him.
0:06:39 And it was really only because of that training
0:06:42 that I was able to pass the Juilliard audition in the fall.
0:06:45 And so I’m really, I’m grateful for my mom’s courage.
0:06:47 I’m also grateful for the happenstance of it all.
0:06:49 But since then I have been the type of person
0:06:51 that sends many a cold email
0:06:54 and walks through physical doors and metaphorical doors
0:06:56 because whatever fear I had around it
0:06:59 was kind of beaten out of me when I was a kid.
0:07:01 – What a crazy story.
0:07:03 What are you interested in studying
0:07:05 and learning about identity?
0:07:07 – Long story short with the violin,
0:07:09 I was very optimistic about potentially becoming
0:07:11 a concert violinist.
0:07:15 But then when I was 15, a sudden hand injury
0:07:16 kind of ended my dreams overnight.
0:07:19 And I was forced to reckon with the fact that
0:07:22 I was no longer going to be able to do this thing
0:07:23 that since the time I was six
0:07:25 had essentially defined my life.
0:07:29 And in that moment, what was so shocking to me
0:07:31 and being told, you know, you can no longer play the violin
0:07:36 is that I knew that there was gonna be a grief associated
0:07:38 with not being able to play the violin,
0:07:41 but I did not expect to mourn the loss of myself
0:07:43 at this more fundamental level.
0:07:44 Because I hadn’t realized,
0:07:46 I mean, I was 15 at the time, Shane, right?
0:07:48 So I had not put all the pieces together.
0:07:50 I had not realized consciously
0:07:54 just how tethered my identity was to the violin.
0:07:56 And so in losing it kind of had this, oh crap moment,
0:07:58 like, oh my gosh, this is a much bigger deal
0:07:59 than I even thought.
0:08:03 And so that was the kind of lived part of my experience
0:08:06 that led me to first think about identity.
0:08:10 And then I ended up becoming a cognitive scientist.
0:08:13 So in losing the violin, I had to figure out, okay,
0:08:13 what comes next?
0:08:14 And I read a bunch of books
0:08:17 and I became fascinated by the human mind
0:08:18 and all that was capable of
0:08:20 and all there was to marvel at.
0:08:23 And in my role as a cognitive scientist
0:08:25 where I study the human mind,
0:08:28 identity just comes up over and over and over again, right?
0:08:31 And it can become a central feature of our lives
0:08:33 and how we see ourselves and how we process change.
0:08:36 And especially as I moved my interest
0:08:38 towards this topic of change, right?
0:08:40 In my podcast, A Slight Change of Plans,
0:08:43 I interview people who have gone through
0:08:46 just harrowing tales of change at times.
0:08:48 And what you realize along the way
0:08:49 is that they’re not just telling you
0:08:51 this external story of change.
0:08:53 They’re talking to you about something internal
0:08:54 that shifted.
0:08:57 And oftentimes it’s the loss of an identity unexpectedly.
0:08:59 And they’re trying to figure out who they can be
0:09:00 in the face of this change.
0:09:03 And so fairly quickly after starting my show,
0:09:04 I realized, wow, you know,
0:09:06 I don’t even know if this is a show about change.
0:09:09 This is really a show fundamentally about identity.
0:09:12 There’s a concept in cognitive psychology
0:09:14 called identity foreclosure.
0:09:15 And it refers to the idea
0:09:19 that we can prematurely commit to an identity
0:09:23 before having fully explored all other ways that we can be
0:09:26 or the things that we want to be in this life.
0:09:28 And this often happens in adolescence.
0:09:31 So we see things modeled for us through our environment,
0:09:33 through parents, through coaches, through teachers,
0:09:34 through our community, right?
0:09:37 We’re often just spoon fed certain identity labels
0:09:40 or roles that we feel we should play.
0:09:42 And part of the process of growing up
0:09:45 is examining those labels for ourselves
0:09:47 and trying them on for a fit and figuring out
0:09:49 which ones feel good and which ones don’t
0:09:50 and which ones we want to reject
0:09:52 and which ones we want to embrace.
0:09:55 But what can happen is that even later in life,
0:09:57 we can have this kind of identity foreclosure.
0:10:00 We can have what I would call change induced identity foreclosure
0:10:02 where you go through an experience
0:10:06 and it just naturally cuts off opportunities for you.
0:10:08 And then you have to figure out what comes next.
0:10:10 When I was 15, I certainly fell prey
0:10:11 to this kind of foreclosure
0:10:16 because I had built my entire self around the violin
0:10:18 without exploring who else I could be.
0:10:21 And so then when I lost it, I felt extremely disoriented.
0:10:26 There is a potentially more robust and sustainable way
0:10:27 to define yourself.
0:10:30 So I don’t think we’re gonna get rid of the human desire
0:10:32 to identify with things in general,
0:10:34 to have strong identities.
0:10:37 They’re a huge source of inspiration and focus
0:10:41 and they can give us feelings of belonging and community.
0:10:43 They can give us drive and motivation, right?
0:10:45 If I define myself as a violinist,
0:10:47 every morning when I wake up, I know what I wanna do
0:10:51 and I’m willing to commit to hours and hours of practice.
0:10:52 The challenge becomes, though,
0:10:54 when you anchor yourself to something
0:10:56 that is precarious in some way.
0:10:57 And that’s what I found with the violin.
0:10:58 What I strive to do,
0:11:00 because it’s very much a works in progress,
0:11:02 but I hope this resonates for your listeners,
0:11:07 is to attach my sense of identity and worth
0:11:11 not to what I do, but to why I do it.
0:11:14 So this has been an exercise in trying to understand,
0:11:16 okay, Maya, you fell in love with the violin
0:11:19 and you enjoyed it for so many reasons.
0:11:20 What was it about the violin
0:11:22 that was so intoxicating for you?
0:11:25 What were the features that made you light up?
0:11:28 And when I stripped away the superficial features
0:11:30 of the violin and kind of looked under the surface,
0:11:34 I realized that there were many traits and features
0:11:37 of playing music that really resonated with me,
0:11:39 but in ways that transcended the violin.
0:11:42 So I loved emotionally connecting with people through music.
0:11:44 I loved the idea of honing a craft
0:11:46 and slowly chipping away and getting better at something
0:11:48 and witnessing that kind of progress.
0:11:51 I loved having this kind of single-minded determination
0:11:53 in these goals that I was chasing.
0:11:57 It was possible for me to find those same features
0:11:59 in other pursuits, right?
0:12:00 If I just looked hard enough.
0:12:03 So I could still find my love of human connection
0:12:04 in other places.
0:12:05 And in fact, I have, right?
0:12:07 And being a cognitive scientist
0:12:10 and now in having my podcast, A Slight Change of Plans,
0:12:12 it’s all about forging deep emotional connections
0:12:13 with people, right?
0:12:17 And I can witness progress in my role as an interviewer
0:12:18 or in my role as a scientist.
0:12:22 And so I would urge people to ask themselves,
0:12:27 “What is it that sits at the root of my passions in life?
0:12:29 And can I find my meaning and worth
0:12:33 and place my identity in that such that when life throws me
0:12:35 a big change of plans, right?
0:12:39 A massive curveball, I can mourn that loss, sure,
0:12:41 but I don’t feel completely disoriented
0:12:44 because there’s still so much of me that persists
0:12:47 and that I can find expressions of in other mediums.
0:12:50 – As you’re saying that, it’s like we can identify
0:12:52 our identity with a skill.
0:12:53 We can do it with a habit.
0:12:56 We can do it with something larger
0:12:59 like Democrat or Republican.
0:13:01 We can do it with something still larger
0:13:04 like American or Canadian or European.
0:13:07 And we can do it from what to why,
0:13:10 which sort of makes me wonder, what is identity?
0:13:14 – It’s a deeply complicated philosophical question
0:13:15 that people have been pondering
0:13:17 for basically as long as we’ve been around.
0:13:19 The way that I approach it actually
0:13:22 is about expanding people’s sense of self
0:13:25 because I think what happens, especially as we get older,
0:13:27 is that we lock into an understanding
0:13:30 of who we are, who we think we are.
0:13:33 And it’s often not totally accurate
0:13:35 and it’s certainly not comprehensive.
0:13:38 I mean, our sense of identity is formulated
0:13:41 based on the quite random events
0:13:42 that have occurred in our lives
0:13:44 and the various ways in which we’ve been pressure tested
0:13:46 or pushed or challenged.
0:13:49 And we didn’t choose that path to reveal to us
0:13:51 the maximum number of data points about ourselves.
0:13:54 We were just living life and going through it
0:13:55 and seeing what happened.
0:13:59 And so I think because we have a first person perspective
0:14:01 on our minds, we sometimes believe
0:14:04 that we have a very good understanding of who we are.
0:14:06 And then what happens in the face of a change
0:14:09 is it reveals to us all that remained hidden from view.
0:14:13 All that existed that maybe didn’t have a reason
0:14:14 to be expressed before then
0:14:17 or the various ways in which we’re more resilient
0:14:19 or the greater number of skills that we have
0:14:22 or the coping mechanisms that we have at our disposal.
0:14:24 And when I think about identity,
0:14:28 I think we benefit from having more expansive identities
0:14:30 and identities that feel more malleable,
0:14:34 that don’t feel fixed in ways that are problematic
0:14:38 as we navigate the many years of life that we have.
0:14:41 We’re willing to revisit and we’re willing to reexamine
0:14:43 and we’re willing to see in a more flexible way.
0:14:46 – It feels like it can be limiting and empowering.
0:14:47 It’s almost like a thermos.
0:14:50 Like it reinforces whatever you put into it.
0:14:52 It doesn’t have a judgment about good or bad.
0:14:55 But if we identify as like a non-technical person
0:14:59 or something, it’s almost as if we absolve ourselves
0:15:02 of the responsibility to learn and grow.
0:15:05 So in a sense, as you were saying that,
0:15:08 it’s almost like our identity is the story we tell ourselves.
0:15:10 – Absolutely, it’s so well said
0:15:13 and it’s very much a narrative we tell ourselves.
0:15:17 And to your point, it can be extremely limiting
0:15:20 because when we in some ways like typecast ourselves,
0:15:21 let’s say as being non-technical
0:15:24 or as being not as social as other people
0:15:28 or not as strong mentally or physically, whatever it is,
0:15:30 that can really hinder our progress
0:15:33 because there is research on identity priming
0:15:36 which says that we do act in ways that are consistent
0:15:37 with our perceived identity
0:15:39 or the identity we aspire to have, right?
0:15:42 So when we see ourselves as a voter,
0:15:43 we’re more likely to vote.
0:15:46 When we see ourselves as being eco-friendly,
0:15:48 we’re more likely to recycle by the same token.
0:15:51 If we see ourselves through these more negative labels,
0:15:54 then we might also act in ways that align with that
0:15:56 and needlessly hold ourselves back
0:15:58 when it comes to making progress.
0:16:00 And I really, really love your point
0:16:03 and it resonates with me so much about kind of accountability.
0:16:06 Like when you self-identify as, say, non-technical,
0:16:08 you’re off the hook a bit, right?
0:16:09 You don’t have to try as much
0:16:10 because you’ve just already decided
0:16:12 that you fall into that bucket.
0:16:15 And so you don’t actually reach whatever growth potential
0:16:16 you have in that area
0:16:18 because you’ve kind of just written yourself off.
0:16:20 That part really resonates with me
0:16:21 and I think that’s an excellent point.
0:16:24 – You sort of hit on a little bit the risks
0:16:27 of wrapping yourself with an instrument
0:16:30 or I think that transfers to something like a profession.
0:16:33 And if we’re no longer able to do it,
0:16:36 then it can cause sort of an identity crisis.
0:16:38 Can that also be a plus?
0:16:40 So I guess the sort of meta question is,
0:16:43 how can we use our identity to help us accomplish our goals?
0:16:46 – There are absolutely pros and pluses
0:16:48 to anchoring ourselves to what we do.
0:16:51 It also gives us a clear sense of a future
0:16:52 that we can imagine, right?
0:16:54 The future might look kind of blurry and amorphous
0:16:58 and when you identify as having a certain profession,
0:17:00 you can at least project what you think
0:17:01 the next five years can look like.
0:17:04 And so there’s definitely benefits
0:17:06 to anchoring yourself in identity
0:17:08 and that’s why I don’t want us to do away
0:17:09 with that concept altogether.
0:17:13 What I’m proposing is having multifaceted identities.
0:17:15 So you have multiple layers of abstraction
0:17:17 when it comes to where you derive meaning
0:17:18 and how you define yourself.
0:17:20 And so at one level you can absolutely say,
0:17:24 okay, I’m a lawyer, I’m a doctor, I stayed home mom,
0:17:25 I’m a tech worker.
0:17:28 And then you can have deeper layers of identity
0:17:30 that can be your safe landing.
0:17:32 You know, almost like a parachute
0:17:34 when life throws you a change that you can fall back on
0:17:37 so that when that thing maybe is threatened
0:17:37 for whatever reason,
0:17:39 I mean, maybe you get into an accident
0:17:41 and you don’t have the same abilities that you had before.
0:17:44 You get a chronic illness that prevents you
0:17:45 from doing those things.
0:17:48 You don’t feel that your entire self-worth
0:17:50 has been stripped away in the process.
0:17:51 That is destabilizing in a way
0:17:53 that I think is counterproductive.
0:17:55 And I’m always trying to be a pragmatist about things
0:17:56 and figure out, okay, what are the ways
0:17:58 that we can try to show as much resilience
0:18:00 as possible in these moments?
0:18:03 And so I do think that if you can try
0:18:06 to build identity layers, if you will,
0:18:08 and depending on the moment in your life
0:18:10 that you’re engaging in
0:18:12 and the challenges that you’re being thrown,
0:18:15 you can almost opportunistically choose
0:18:16 that level of abstraction, right?
0:18:19 You can choose the layer at which you want to self-identify.
0:18:22 It’s possible that in the moment at your job,
0:18:24 it’s not that helpful to think of yourself as,
0:18:27 “Oh, I’m the type of person who loves connecting with people,”
0:18:29 because you have a really annoying work assignment
0:18:30 that’s due in five hours
0:18:33 and that’s not gonna be sufficiently motivating, right?
0:18:36 And so that’s where you might call upon the stricter label,
0:18:37 which is just what you do.
0:18:39 – I like that because it’s sort of like
0:18:41 you can turn identity into whatever you want
0:18:43 to help you accomplish your goals.
0:18:44 – As long as it’s not delusional.
0:18:46 So I really don’t, I’m not okay
0:18:48 with people telling themselves stories
0:18:50 that are simply advantageous
0:18:53 or promote psychological well-being, right?
0:18:55 They have to be rooted in reality.
0:18:57 They have to be to some degree vetted
0:18:58 by the people in your life.
0:19:01 If you identify as like an extremely compassionate person,
0:19:02 but then the people around you
0:19:04 don’t feel that way about you,
0:19:06 it’s worth potentially revisiting and updating.
0:19:08 So I really do feel like we need to allow
0:19:10 and feedback in those spaces
0:19:13 and just make sure that whatever our self-assessment is,
0:19:16 is at least in part rooted in evidence
0:19:18 that we’re collecting about ourselves along the way.
0:19:20 One of my favorite ways to solve problems
0:19:22 is ask myself what I don’t want.
0:19:24 I’m wondering if we can sort of do that with identity.
0:19:25 And I was thinking about this
0:19:27 and I sort of think as identity
0:19:29 is the things that we don’t do
0:19:31 more than the things that we do.
0:19:34 What are the benefits and sort of cons
0:19:35 of thinking about it that way?
0:19:37 – Wait, say a little bit more about that.
0:19:38 I’m curious.
0:19:41 – You can just be like, you know, I’m a non-smoker
0:19:43 instead of identifying as a smoker.
0:19:44 And so you can sort of take the negative.
0:19:46 What are the identities that I don’t want?
0:19:47 – Yes.
0:19:48 – And then how do I avoid those?
0:19:50 – I mean, research has shown that can be as effective.
0:19:51 And there’s some research showing
0:19:55 that when people are in the process of quitting
0:19:57 and let’s say they’re offered a cigarette,
0:20:00 there is a difference in terms of express behavior.
0:20:02 If you frame your current state
0:20:04 as being someone who is in the process of quitting smoking
0:20:07 versus being someone who doesn’t smoke.
0:20:08 – Right.
0:20:10 – I think when you add the not label,
0:20:13 you can feel as fiercely about the things that you don’t do,
0:20:14 right?
0:20:16 Even on the character front, like I don’t lie,
0:20:20 we can feel as much conviction in those non behaviors
0:20:22 as we do in the more proactive behaviors.
0:20:24 – I want to get into sort of a larger discussion
0:20:26 about identity and how it affects us.
0:20:28 We talked earlier about sort of like skills and habits
0:20:31 and Democrat, Republican, you can think of religious
0:20:35 or non-religious as sort of groups of people.
0:20:36 When we identify with something,
0:20:38 it seems to put us in like a weird place.
0:20:41 So if I identify as Christian,
0:20:43 I don’t need to be an expert
0:20:46 to express an opinion on that.
0:20:48 And I sort of got this idea from Paul Graham
0:20:50 and the same is true for politics, right?
0:20:53 If I identify as a group, say Democrats,
0:20:55 I don’t need to be an expert
0:20:57 to have an opinion on the economy.
0:20:59 I just need strong convictions.
0:21:03 These are unique areas where there’s no objective wrong
0:21:05 or right, only subjective questions.
0:21:07 And since we can’t be proven wrong,
0:21:10 we tend to feel like every opinion is equally valid.
0:21:13 The question then becomes how do we have discussions
0:21:17 about something that we’ve made part of our identity?
0:21:19 And what does this mean for us individually
0:21:21 and as a country?
0:21:23 – Facts and science and evidence don’t surface
0:21:25 as much as they should in some of our debates.
0:21:28 And it’s because when we look at how it is
0:21:30 that people form their attitudes and beliefs
0:21:32 about the world, they’re not simply basing it
0:21:34 on what the data says.
0:21:37 They’re basing it on their tribal membership,
0:21:38 on their identity membership.
0:21:42 So if you identify with a particular political party
0:21:44 or a particular community group,
0:21:45 there’s this feeling of allegiance
0:21:47 that can supersede our rational minds, right?
0:21:50 So we hear leaders saying certain things
0:21:52 and we implicitly buy into what they’re saying
0:21:54 because they lead this group
0:21:55 that we feel convictions about.
0:21:59 One downside of the group identity label
0:22:01 is that it can make us less scrupulous
0:22:04 and it can make us less critically minded
0:22:06 in ways that we otherwise would be, right?
0:22:09 If we were reasoning through every situation for ourselves,
0:22:11 we would probably take a closer eye
0:22:13 to certain conclusions that are drawn.
0:22:15 One thing that’s so important for us as humans
0:22:17 is to have the humility to change our minds
0:22:19 and to have the humility to update our point of view
0:22:21 and our opinions about things.
0:22:25 And if you feel too strong tribal membership,
0:22:28 it can impede you from updating your point of view
0:22:32 because in that moment, you’re not just asking yourself,
0:22:35 do I believe in that ex-virus is real?
0:22:37 What you’re really asking is,
0:22:39 do I belong to ex-group or not?
0:22:40 Because if I don’t believe that,
0:22:43 now I might get ejected from the group, right?
0:22:46 It feels like there’s so much on the line
0:22:50 every time you are open to the idea of changing your mind
0:22:52 about something in the face of new information.
0:22:53 And I think that’s the part of the culture
0:22:55 we have to work to change as much as possible,
0:22:59 which is there has to be quote like wiggle room
0:23:00 within these identity spaces, right?
0:23:04 You should still be allowed to belong in a group
0:23:07 even if you differ from people in some of their opinions.
0:23:10 We can have these purity complexes around group membership.
0:23:12 Otherwise, it really does hold us back
0:23:15 from arriving at better conclusions
0:23:20 and from being wiser and dismissing our pride in the moment
0:23:23 in favor of actually trying to arrive at the right conclusion
0:23:24 or the right solution.
0:23:26 And so I feel very, very strongly
0:23:28 that element of our human psychology
0:23:30 and also the way that we reinforce it
0:23:31 through some of these social factors
0:23:33 is a really big challenge
0:23:35 that I would love to see us work through.
0:23:37 – Well, one thing I’ve thought about
0:23:39 is that we’re sort of animals, right?
0:23:42 And so one of the tendencies we share with animals
0:23:44 is that we’re territorial.
0:23:46 And when animals are territorial,
0:23:47 they react without reasoning.
0:23:49 And humans, we’re lucky,
0:23:51 we’re capable of reasoning in between acting,
0:23:54 but there’s certain situations where we tend not to reason.
0:23:56 And one of those situations
0:23:59 is when somebody treads on our identity.
0:24:01 That’s our version of territorial.
0:24:04 We’re not walking around peeing on street lamps
0:24:06 or something to mark our territory.
0:24:08 Our territory is almost how we see ourselves.
0:24:10 And it’s really fascinating to me
0:24:12 because one of the quirks with this
0:24:16 is that we instantly tend to reject other people’s ideas
0:24:19 even if they’re correct
0:24:22 because it belongs to somebody that we don’t like
0:24:25 or some other group than we’re in.
0:24:28 What can we do for ourselves to open our mind
0:24:30 and actually think in those moments
0:24:33 instead of just responding without reasoning?
0:24:35 – Yeah, I mean,
0:24:38 I think you’re articulating this massive challenge.
0:24:41 And there’s another concept in psychology
0:24:43 that I think is a really useful aid here.
0:24:45 And it’s more on how we communicate messages.
0:24:48 So there’s this concept called moral reframing.
0:24:51 What we find is that grounding our arguments
0:24:54 in moral terms that affirm rather than threaten
0:24:56 the moral views of those we disagree with
0:24:58 is far more effective
0:25:00 at helping them change their viewpoints.
0:25:03 So for example, there was this one study showing,
0:25:05 well, if you wanna convince conservatives to care
0:25:06 more about the environment,
0:25:08 you might appeal to values
0:25:10 that you know conservatives tend to hold.
0:25:12 So for example, patriotism, right?
0:25:15 Like you might say, being pro-environmental
0:25:17 allows us to protect and preserve
0:25:19 the American way of life, right?
0:25:21 This is the language that they use in this study.
0:25:23 It is patriotic to conserve
0:25:26 this beautiful country’s natural resources.
0:25:27 So it’s still aligned with facts,
0:25:32 but you’re grounding it in whatever values that group has
0:25:35 and what that allows for is it allows for people
0:25:38 to both stay consistent and true
0:25:41 to their underlying beliefs about the world
0:25:43 and the things they hold close to them,
0:25:46 while also being willing to entertain a new way of thinking.
0:25:48 And I think that’s such a powerful instrument
0:25:50 because it’s a mechanism by which you can get people
0:25:52 to open their minds up without them feeling
0:25:55 like they’re threatening the entire moral compass
0:25:56 that they live by.
0:25:58 I mean, I use the example of the environment
0:26:00 and conservatives as it applies across the board,
0:26:02 all people in groups and communities.
0:26:04 I think also the power of the messenger,
0:26:05 you know, it plays a big role.
0:26:08 So I have some personal experience with this.
0:26:10 When I was working in the Obama White House,
0:26:13 we were eager to help residents of Flint
0:26:15 in the face of the lead in water crisis, right?
0:26:18 So this was an awful, awful situation
0:26:22 where lead in water was poisoning generations of people.
0:26:23 And one of the things we did is we designed
0:26:26 these fact sheets about water safety.
0:26:29 And there was a question of who should be the messenger
0:26:30 of these fact sheets.
0:26:32 And I think instinctively we thought,
0:26:35 oh, it should be the environmental protection agency
0:26:37 because the acronym is EPA,
0:26:40 because the EPA is kind of the leading authority
0:26:41 when it comes to all these matters.
0:26:44 And so we should have it come from a government body.
0:26:46 But then when you think about it a bit more
0:26:47 from the perspective of the psychology
0:26:49 of the people who are struggling, right?
0:26:51 You realize, wait a second,
0:26:54 their local government has just lied to them, you know,
0:26:56 for years and they’ve experienced decades
0:27:00 of disenfranchisement and systemic racism.
0:27:02 They don’t have a lot of reason to believe
0:27:04 in these authority figures and to trust the words
0:27:06 that are coming from these authority figures.
0:27:09 And so I remember what the local EPA did in Flint
0:27:11 as they organized a canvassing effort
0:27:14 where residents of the community, heads of churches,
0:27:16 heads of YMCA’s, people that you’re seeing
0:27:19 at the grocery store or church on Sundays,
0:27:21 they’re knocking on doors and they’re saying,
0:27:24 look, I can vouch for the content of these fact sheets.
0:27:26 Like I as your friend, as your neighbor,
0:27:27 as your community member.
0:27:30 And that’s a situation where it was much more effective
0:27:34 for the message to come from someone who was trusted
0:27:36 rather than quote the highest authority figure.
0:27:38 And I think it’s a humbling lesson
0:27:40 as we think through public policy
0:27:41 and who should convey messages
0:27:43 that we ought to rethink this idea
0:27:44 that people at the top of government
0:27:47 are always gonna be the best communicators on a message.
0:27:48 I mean, it’s certainly not the case.
0:27:50 – That’s fascinating because like,
0:27:51 as you were saying that,
0:27:53 I’m like one of the problems today
0:27:57 is the erosion of trust in government institutions.
0:28:00 This was sort of like a micro example of that.
0:28:04 But a macro example, how do we do that as a nation
0:28:07 on a bigger scale if there’s another pandemic
0:28:10 or an emergency after we’ve eroded this trust?
0:28:14 And how do we reestablish trust in our institutions?
0:28:16 – I do think that we have to think at all levels, right?
0:28:19 So we can think at the highest level like you’re saying,
0:28:23 and how can policymakers and social architects
0:28:26 figure this out so that we see this at a more scale level.
0:28:28 But then there are also the individual lines
0:28:29 we’re changing in our everyday life.
0:28:31 And I don’t want people to give up on that
0:28:33 because that matters too.
0:28:35 And we kind of wanna initiate activity
0:28:37 at both the bottom and the top.
0:28:38 – As you were saying that,
0:28:39 it sort of relates to identity, right?
0:28:43 ‘Cause now my identity is I don’t trust government institutions.
0:28:45 And once you have that, it’s like, how do we change that?
0:28:48 So it comes back to really the fundamental question
0:28:49 of like, how do we change our identity
0:28:51 when we want to or for the positive?
0:28:52 – Yeah, and I think, you know,
0:28:55 what that example in Flint shows is that
0:28:57 even something as simple as the messenger,
0:28:59 I mean, when your door is knocked on
0:29:02 and it’s someone that you see at church on Sundays
0:29:04 and they’re telling you that they believe in a document
0:29:05 that was created by the government,
0:29:07 that is a step forward, right?
0:29:09 You are getting that person,
0:29:10 at least in the context of this fact sheet,
0:29:11 believe in something that
0:29:13 the federal government has shared with you.
0:29:14 I don’t wanna discount that
0:29:16 as also being meaningful progress.
0:29:19 So one thing I wanted to share in the context of
0:29:22 everyday conversations we have with people, right?
0:29:24 So that proverbial, like Thanksgiving dinner
0:29:27 where you’re sitting down and there’s an uncle there
0:29:28 and you disagree with them.
0:29:30 And in the past, you’ve just kind of given up
0:29:31 and been like, this is not worth it.
0:29:33 There is research in psychology,
0:29:35 which shows how we can make more progress
0:29:36 in those situations.
0:29:37 And this is known in the research
0:29:40 as motivational interviewing or deep canvassing.
0:29:42 And they use this in the context of, you know,
0:29:44 political campaigns and trying to see
0:29:46 if people can make progress on convincing people
0:29:48 to change their minds on important political
0:29:49 or social issues.
0:29:51 So there’s a couple key features
0:29:54 of motivational interviewing
0:29:55 that are good to consider here.
0:29:57 So one is the same way that I talked
0:29:59 in the context of moral reframing
0:30:00 as you don’t wanna undermine
0:30:02 the other person’s fundamental sense of humanity
0:30:06 because that’s just gonna close the door immediately, right?
0:30:08 If you’re starting a conversation with me, Shane,
0:30:10 and you’re like, I think you’re a terrible person,
0:30:13 chances are you’re not gonna get very far, right?
0:30:16 So you wanna try as hard as you possibly can
0:30:20 to show as much genuine curiosity for the person’s views.
0:30:22 You might find them abhorrent,
0:30:24 but you wanna understand how it is
0:30:26 that they arrived at those views.
0:30:28 How did they get from point A to point B?
0:30:31 And try to at least express curiosity for the journey.
0:30:32 Oh, maybe they were born into a family
0:30:34 where their grandparents all thought this thing
0:30:37 or maybe they were bullied in school.
0:30:38 And so they felt that the only way
0:30:40 that could really belong was joining
0:30:42 X or Y community group, whatever it is, right?
0:30:43 You wanna just show curiosity.
0:30:46 And that will at least invite more of a conversation
0:30:49 rather than just simply a confrontation.
0:30:52 The other thing, and this relates to this curiosity point,
0:30:56 is you wanna increase your question-to-statement ratio.
0:30:59 So one thing that we can often do in these contexts
0:31:03 is simply just tell people
0:31:05 what we think they should think, right?
0:31:06 We just come out the gate being like,
0:31:07 well, this is how it actually is
0:31:09 and this is what the data shows
0:31:11 and it feels authoritative in a way
0:31:14 that’s often just not conducive to actual mindset change.
0:31:17 And so instead, you want to increase
0:31:19 the number of questions that you’re asking
0:31:21 and try to keep statements more to a minimum.
0:31:24 And then when the person shares their point of view
0:31:27 back with you, again, you might find it to be totally
0:31:29 at odds with your life philosophy
0:31:31 or the way you think about the world,
0:31:32 it can be really validating helpful
0:31:36 to restate in your own words what they’ve just said to you
0:31:38 so that you can at least validate that they’ve been heard.
0:31:40 Again, you disagree with them,
0:31:42 but you’re saying, I’m listening to you,
0:31:43 I’m understanding what you’re saying,
0:31:46 I’m gonna rephrase what I just heard you say.
0:31:49 And that can open people’s minds, right?
0:31:51 The technique at that point that’s really helpful
0:31:54 is you can ask them a pretty powerful question,
0:31:58 which is, hey, so you believe this thing,
0:32:02 what evidence do you think you would need
0:32:04 in order to change your mind about that thing?
0:32:05 And what I love about that question
0:32:08 is that it just presupposes
0:32:10 that they ought to be willing to change their mind
0:32:11 in the face of new evidence, right?
0:32:13 You’re kind of like putting them on the hook
0:32:14 for at least acknowledging
0:32:16 that there could be something in theory
0:32:16 that could change their minds.
0:32:18 Now, you might be talking to someone
0:32:20 who is particularly resolute and stubborn in their views
0:32:22 and they could say, literally no evidence
0:32:23 could change my mind.
0:32:26 That’s the point at which you stop the conversation
0:32:28 and you maybe focus on the cornbread
0:32:30 and you get back to your Thanksgiving dinner.
0:32:33 But for most people, they might say,
0:32:36 if I learned that these three things were true,
0:32:38 I might be willing to change my mind.
0:32:40 And that is progress.
0:32:42 Like that, even just the identification
0:32:45 of what those things are is very, very meaningful.
0:32:48 And I think you can engage with them on those things.
0:32:51 You can also ask them how they believe
0:32:52 they arrived at their views, right?
0:32:53 So that they can actually see
0:32:55 that there was maybe some randomness
0:32:56 in how they arrived at their views.
0:32:58 Like, how did you get from point A to point B?
0:33:01 Oh, actually it turns out that I was just really over anchoring
0:33:04 on what my friend told me at school that one day
0:33:08 or what my colleague said about this article that they read.
0:33:11 And like they can find holes in their own arguments
0:33:12 when they have to trace that path
0:33:17 and realize it wasn’t the result of really clear,
0:33:20 disciplined, rational, scientific thinking.
0:33:22 But like everyone, myself included,
0:33:24 we arrive at our views for a variety of reasons.
0:33:26 And our minds are shaped for all sorts of reasons
0:33:28 that aren’t always totally sound.
0:33:30 And we should also, of course,
0:33:33 use these same tactics on ourselves, right?
0:33:35 So we tend to believe going into these conversations
0:33:38 that our only job is to change their minds.
0:33:41 When in actuality, we might be a little blind
0:33:44 to the holes in our logic and we might benefit
0:33:46 from having a slightly more open mind going in
0:33:49 because it’s actually okay to leave the conversation
0:33:52 in which both people have changed their point of view
0:33:53 just a little bit, right?
0:33:55 That would be potentially an excellent outcome
0:33:56 for the conversation.
0:33:58 Sounds like a step forward.
0:34:01 Let’s say I have a goal to run a marathon next year
0:34:03 and I’m not currently a runner.
0:34:07 How can I use identity as a means to accomplish that goal?
0:34:09 There is some research showing that
0:34:11 you do want to frame your goals
0:34:14 in terms of do behaviors versus don’t behaviors.
0:34:16 So you would kind of acknowledge this before.
0:34:18 It’s much more easy to measure progress
0:34:21 when we’re engaging in proactive decisions
0:34:24 or proactive behaviors rather than the abstinence of things.
0:34:26 You say, okay, I wanna be a runner.
0:34:29 I’m gonna start by running half a mile every day.
0:34:31 That’s gonna be easier to track then.
0:34:34 I’m not gonna sit on my couch for as long, right?
0:34:36 It’s like that’s a really hard thing to measure
0:34:38 and also just doesn’t feel as inspiring or motivating.
0:34:40 When it comes to identity, I actually think that
0:34:43 we talked a lot about wiggle room in identity
0:34:46 and thinking of our identities as slightly more malleable
0:34:48 and trying not to have a purity complex about it.
0:34:51 And I think that applies to goal setting as well.
0:34:54 So we can, especially at the outset of goal setting,
0:34:56 be wildly ambitious about what it is
0:34:58 that we want to accomplish.
0:34:59 And we can have that purity complex
0:35:02 where if we don’t abide by the rules,
0:35:04 let’s say of our first week or our second week,
0:35:06 we just fall off the wagon ’cause we think,
0:35:08 okay, well, we already kind of screwed this up.
0:35:09 So what’s the point?
0:35:11 And that can be really counterproductive.
0:35:13 And so there is research showing that
0:35:15 when we introduce what are known as emergency reserves
0:35:19 into our goal setting, basically get out of jail-free cards
0:35:20 into the process of goal setting,
0:35:22 we’re much more likely to stay the course
0:35:23 and to reach those goals.
0:35:27 So for example, let’s say I wanna run 3K or whatever,
0:35:29 5K and however many weeks,
0:35:33 you actually build in six days along the way
0:35:35 where you don’t actually run.
0:35:37 For whatever reason, you got sick.
0:35:39 You have to drop your kids off at school.
0:35:40 You don’t feel like it.
0:35:42 That’s okay too.
0:35:44 But you’re basically bridging an empathy gap
0:35:47 that exists between you and your future self
0:35:49 when you’re building in that emergency reserve.
0:35:51 You’re acknowledging that real life is gonna happen
0:35:53 and that when I don’t run that one day,
0:35:57 it is not a threat to this future or present identity of runner.
0:36:02 It is a expected and pseudo welcome part of the process
0:36:04 because it’s a more sustainable way to achieve your goals.
0:36:08 So one mistake we can make is on a Sunday at 4pm,
0:36:10 when we’re laying on the couch watching TV,
0:36:12 we think to ourselves, okay,
0:36:15 I’m gonna get up at 4am every morning
0:36:18 and I’m gonna work out at 4am.
0:36:20 And when push comes to shove, of course,
0:36:22 we’re at a very different state in that moment
0:36:25 and we often have a really hard time sticking to those goals.
0:36:27 And that’s another example of an empathy gap
0:36:30 between our present selves and our future selves,
0:36:31 which can be very problematic.
0:36:34 And so if you are up at 4am
0:36:35 and you are at the gym working out,
0:36:38 that’s a reasonable moment to say,
0:36:39 I’m going to try to keep doing this
0:36:42 for however many days I can manage, right?
0:36:45 But I think that’s another way that you can set goals
0:36:48 in ways that really don’t feel like you’re threatening
0:36:49 your aspirational,
0:36:50 ’cause what we’re talking about here
0:36:52 are aspirational identities, right?
0:36:54 And we don’t wanna get in our own way
0:36:56 at the time where we’re actually setting the goals
0:36:59 such that we make less progress than we could.
0:37:02 And so we can take these factors into account at the outset.
0:37:04 – I love that, thank you.
0:37:06 I wanna switch gears just a little bit
0:37:08 to something you said when you were in the White House
0:37:10 that has fascinated me,
0:37:12 which is you said debunking a myth
0:37:14 often does little more than reinforce it.
0:37:17 So if that’s true, what can we do instead?
0:37:19 What role does a story play
0:37:21 and what role do facts play
0:37:24 when it comes to changing people’s minds?
0:37:25 – It’s a very particular claim,
0:37:29 which is that when you are myth-busting,
0:37:32 you tend to say what is not true, right?
0:37:35 So you say it is not the case that blah, right?
0:37:36 You try to correct the record, right?
0:37:39 Disabuse people of this existing belief.
0:37:40 But what they find in research is that
0:37:42 very quickly after you say,
0:37:44 read the public service announcement
0:37:46 or you listen to the commercial,
0:37:48 people forget whether there was a not
0:37:50 or not in that sentence.
0:37:52 And so what happens is you’ve actually
0:37:54 just strengthened the neural connection between,
0:37:55 okay, let’s say in this case,
0:37:57 we’re trying to convince people
0:37:58 not to boil their water
0:38:00 because that won’t get rid of lead.
0:38:01 It’ll actually make the problem worse.
0:38:03 So we say like, you know,
0:38:05 is not true that boiling your water
0:38:08 is going to lead to better water safety, okay?
0:38:10 They might forget the not.
0:38:12 And so now I’ve just, in my brain,
0:38:15 strengthened the relationship between boiling water
0:38:17 and the term water safety.
0:38:19 And so that’s where we have to be careful.
0:38:21 And so what research has found
0:38:22 is that we should actually just make
0:38:25 more affirmative statements that are correct.
0:38:28 So in order to have safe water,
0:38:30 you should use a water filter
0:38:33 and you should install it in this particular way.
0:38:34 And you should, you know,
0:38:38 you try to go on the road with the things people should do.
0:38:40 And that way, you’re only strengthening
0:38:42 the neural connection between the two relevant things
0:38:44 that do actually fit together
0:38:47 and will actually lead to better outcomes.
0:38:49 – I never thought of it that way, I like that.
0:38:50 You highlighted this,
0:38:52 but I want to come back to it,
0:38:55 which is you said here’s how we can use identity
0:38:57 to help us accomplish our goal.
0:39:00 How does how we frame our goals
0:39:02 affect our ability to accomplish our goals?
0:39:05 – You want to recognize when you’re defining goals
0:39:09 as what we call approach goals versus avoiding goals,
0:39:11 because they can have a different impact on our motivation.
0:39:14 So for example, I want to eat healthier foods
0:39:17 versus the avoidant version of that would be,
0:39:20 I want to avoid unhealthy foods, right?
0:39:23 And we do know that do goals are more motivating.
0:39:26 They promote endurance, they’re met with pride.
0:39:29 Do not goals are more effective in certain cases
0:39:31 where we’re trying to inspire urgency.
0:39:33 Maybe there’s like a health thing that you really shouldn’t do
0:39:36 and it makes a lot of sense to do the do not goal.
0:39:39 Another way that we can change the way that we frame the goal
0:39:41 so that we’re more likely to act on it
0:39:43 is to think about who is setting the goal.
0:39:45 So it’s really interesting,
0:39:49 like humans just love being in the driver’s seat,
0:39:50 like hands on the steering wheel.
0:39:54 We like owning our goals and our outcomes
0:39:56 and often in these contexts, right?
0:39:59 We are working with a boss who’s giving us a directive
0:40:01 or working with a coach in the gym
0:40:03 who’s giving us a directive.
0:40:05 But the degree to which we can introduce some degree
0:40:07 of personal agency in that process
0:40:10 so that we feel like we’re the ones setting the goals
0:40:12 can be super helpful.
0:40:14 Now, we’re in the real world, right?
0:40:16 It doesn’t mean like your boss is gonna be like,
0:40:18 “Hey, you decide what you do today.”
0:40:19 But maybe there’s choices, right?
0:40:21 Maybe there’s like three priorities
0:40:23 and you feel like you’re in the driver’s seat
0:40:25 when it comes to choosing the exact priority
0:40:26 that you focus on.
0:40:27 Or maybe at the gym, it’s like,
0:40:30 “Okay, it’s a lower body day, but you have options.”
0:40:33 We do find that people are definitely better
0:40:35 at achieving them when we are the ones
0:40:37 who feel like we set our own targets.
0:40:38 And that’s because we’re really tapping
0:40:40 into intrinsic motivation
0:40:43 versus just extrinsic motivation, right?
0:40:47 Fear of judgment or punishment from some higher up.
0:40:50 – I wanna understand the do behaviors a little bit better.
0:40:51 When you use the example of like,
0:40:53 “I want to eat healthier food,”
0:40:54 a couple of things came to mind.
0:40:57 One was when we’re creating that goal,
0:40:59 we have a lot of willpower.
0:41:01 And in the moment where we choose
0:41:03 to opt out of eating healthy food,
0:41:06 we probably don’t have a lot of willpower.
0:41:08 So that relates to sort of what you were saying.
0:41:11 Like don’t set a goal to go to the gym at 4 a.m.
0:41:14 when it’s like, I don’t know, 3 p.m. in the afternoon.
0:41:16 And it strikes me that eventually
0:41:18 everybody loses the battle with willpower.
0:41:20 So where I’m going with this is,
0:41:23 is it almost better to set rules?
0:41:25 My rule is I only eat healthy food.
0:41:27 And then all of a sudden you’ve changed it
0:41:30 from a willpower question into,
0:41:33 “I just need to follow this rule that I’ve set for myself.”
0:41:35 – I think both are going to tax willpower.
0:41:38 I think even that subtle framing of like,
0:41:40 “I don’t eat unhealthy foods.”
0:41:42 Like if you’re near the chocolate cake,
0:41:44 you’re still gonna feel the pull of the chocolate cake.
0:41:47 No semantic shift is gonna be that powerful
0:41:48 to eliminate the willpower issues.
0:41:51 I know Angela Duckworth focuses a lot on this.
0:41:54 So that we don’t have to employ willpower,
0:41:56 we should really focus on the way that we design our lives
0:41:58 and the choice architecture of our lives.
0:42:00 What this means in practice is,
0:42:02 to the extent that you can control your environment,
0:42:05 you just make things unavailable to you.
0:42:07 And you make other things really readily accessible
0:42:08 and available to you.
0:42:11 So the canonical example of this is cafes
0:42:13 where they try to encourage healthy eating,
0:42:15 they put all the junk food at the bottom
0:42:17 and there are no pait containers.
0:42:18 And then they put the healthy food,
0:42:20 like the fruits and vegetables and healthy snacks
0:42:23 on full display, at eye level.
0:42:25 So it’s the things you’re more likely to grab.
0:42:27 And those little nudges are actually quite effective
0:42:30 and they don’t require as much willpower
0:42:33 because you’ve just architected your environment accordingly.
0:42:34 And so that’s what I would recommend
0:42:36 in situations like that.
0:42:37 And then the other thing we know, Shane,
0:42:41 about motivation is that we don’t have stable amounts
0:42:43 of motivation over the course of goal pursuit.
0:42:46 This is some research by my friend, Ayelet Fishbach.
0:42:47 She calls it the middle problems.
0:42:49 So basically what happens is,
0:42:50 we have a huge burst of motivation
0:42:51 at the outset of a goal.
0:42:53 We all can resonate with this, right?
0:42:56 January 1st, the lines to the gym are long.
0:42:58 And then like January 20th,
0:43:00 all of a sudden they start to wane, right?
0:43:02 So we all enter goal pursuit
0:43:04 with a lot of enthusiasm and excitement.
0:43:06 And then we also find actually that towards the end
0:43:09 of goal pursuit, as we’re reaching the end,
0:43:11 we experienced monotonic increases in motivation.
0:43:13 What’s called the goal gradient effect,
0:43:14 where as we get closer to the goal,
0:43:17 we get even more motivated and excited about it.
0:43:19 But there’s a lull in the middle.
0:43:21 So that’s the problem, right?
0:43:22 That’s like, you see, ooh,
0:43:24 there’s like a dip in the motivation.
0:43:28 And I think we all have the lived experience of this, right?
0:43:30 It’s like, oh my gosh, I was so excited
0:43:32 in the first three weeks of this thing
0:43:33 and now I’m kind of losing steam.
0:43:36 So what Ayelet recommends is to actually just make
0:43:40 the middle periods of time as short as physically possible.
0:43:42 So rather than setting a year-long goal,
0:43:45 which we might feel an instinct to do
0:43:47 because we want to set a really ambitious goal.
0:43:49 And so we’re like, let’s make it a year-long goal
0:43:51 ’cause then I can really achieve the best version
0:43:53 of this thing that I have my site set on.
0:43:56 Instead, you set week-long goals.
0:44:00 So that way the middle period is not a multi-month period.
0:44:03 It’s actually just a few days in the middle of the week, right?
0:44:05 And you can get away with a day or two
0:44:07 of not working very hard, right?
0:44:08 And then climbing your way back out
0:44:10 and say that final day of low motivation.
0:44:14 And so I really like this idea of trying to,
0:44:17 from a temporal perspective,
0:44:20 kind of like bound your motivational cycles
0:44:22 so that you can experience this dip
0:44:23 in a more constrained space.
0:44:25 – It’s almost like you’re a marathoner
0:44:28 and you hit a wall and you’re sort of at like mile 10.
0:44:30 And instead of focusing on the finish line,
0:44:33 you focus on how do I get around the next corner?
0:44:34 And then you accomplish that goal
0:44:36 and then you focus on the next corner.
0:44:38 So you shorten the distance between where you are
0:44:39 and what you want to accomplish.
0:44:40 – Exactly.
0:44:43 I want to share the one motivational technique
0:44:46 that I use like every single day of my life.
0:44:49 It’s been the most transformative for me.
0:44:51 So this is from my friend, Katie Milkman,
0:44:54 at the University of Pennsylvania.
0:44:56 She calls it temptation bundling.
0:44:58 The idea is very simple actually,
0:45:02 but what you do is you pair a desirable task
0:45:04 with an undesirable task.
0:45:06 So something that you have to do, right?
0:45:07 So let’s say you have to unload the dishwasher.
0:45:09 You have to fold laundry.
0:45:11 You have to get some sort of work assignment done.
0:45:12 You have to work out.
0:45:14 Whatever the thing is that you have a little bit of dread
0:45:16 towards is the undesirable task.
0:45:18 That’s the thing that needs to actually happen.
0:45:22 And then you pair it with a desirable activity
0:45:25 that offers you more of an immediate reward.
0:45:27 Okay, so this might be, okay, while I’m folding laundry,
0:45:30 I listen to my favorite pop album that just came out.
0:45:33 Or while I’m on the treadmill, I’m watching Netflix.
0:45:37 Or while I am doing this really tough work assignment,
0:45:40 I’m treating myself to like my favorite candy.
0:45:43 And the key part, like the only way
0:45:45 in which this temptation bundling works
0:45:49 is if you actively deny yourself that rewarding activity
0:45:52 in all other domains of life so that it really feels special
0:45:56 and it feels coupled with the undesirable activity.
0:45:59 So I can’t be watching Netflix all the time
0:46:01 and then feel motivated to go on the treadmill
0:46:03 to just watch more Netflix, right?
0:46:05 I have to choose, say, a show where it’s like,
0:46:07 you can only watch the show when you’re on the treadmill.
0:46:09 You can only listen to this pop album
0:46:10 when you’re folding laundry.
0:46:12 You can only eat this candy
0:46:13 when you’re working on writing your book,
0:46:15 whatever the thing is, right?
0:46:18 And I have found this to be such a game changer
0:46:21 because you get really swept up in what happens with,
0:46:24 for me, shitty reality TV shows.
0:46:25 And I really want to know what happens.
0:46:28 And so I do feel a pull to go back
0:46:29 to doing the undesirable thing
0:46:32 just ’cause I’m so eager to see what happens in the plotline.
0:46:34 And so that one has been really effective for me.
0:46:35 But again, you have to,
0:46:37 you do have to be very rule-based here,
0:46:39 which is that you can’t indulge in that thing
0:46:40 in other spaces.
0:46:42 – That’s a really important nuance.
0:46:43 Thank you very much, Maya,
0:46:45 for this conversation, this is an ambassador name.
0:46:47 I want to end on a personal question,
0:46:49 which is how would you define success?
0:46:54 – I think success for me is making people feel
0:46:57 like they’ve been understood by me in some way.
0:46:59 I think as a cognitive scientist,
0:47:02 I’m obviously very attuned to people’s inner life.
0:47:05 And I think just dispositionally,
0:47:06 I’m a fairly open person
0:47:08 who’s often willing to share a lot
0:47:10 about my interior life with people.
0:47:13 And I find it to be probably
0:47:15 one of the most beautiful experiences in life
0:47:18 where I have been vulnerable with someone or open with them
0:47:20 and they in turn share something with me
0:47:23 that they were holding in or feeling uncomfortable about.
0:47:26 And we have this moment,
0:47:28 this kind of singular moment of connection
0:47:31 when we’re both willing to share those experiences
0:47:32 with one another.
0:47:34 And I just think that if we allowed more people
0:47:37 to feel understood in the challenges that they were facing
0:47:40 and just less in their own heads,
0:47:42 kind of just like suffering in silence
0:47:44 and torturing themselves,
0:47:46 we would just all be so much happier.
0:47:48 And I do think that kind of understanding
0:47:52 and compassion is available to us.
0:47:54 I mean, I think being a cognitive scientist
0:47:57 is the greatest lesson in empathy
0:47:59 because when you understand why people are the way they are,
0:48:02 it’s really hard to really hate people.
0:48:05 And I think that feeling of being understood again,
0:48:08 that doesn’t mean that you agree with people,
0:48:09 but you at least offer an ear that’s like,
0:48:12 okay, let me try to understand where you’re coming from.
0:48:15 That to me is being a successful person.
0:48:17 – That was beautiful, thank you.
0:48:18 – Thank you so much.
0:48:20 (upbeat music)
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