AI transcript
0:00:00 you know, they’re like explorers in the world.
0:00:02 I mean, that’s like how I think about teens.
0:00:03 Like that’s what their job is.
0:00:04 Their job is to explore.
0:00:05 They’re trying to figure out who they are.
0:00:07 Their job is to go through this kind of identity formation phase.
0:00:10 And I also think a lot about like the difference
0:00:12 between like an explorer and a nomad.
0:00:15 And I feel like the big difference
0:00:16 is an explorer has a home base.
0:00:18 But what I always want parents of teens to know
0:00:21 is like your teen still needs you in the most intense way.
0:00:25 And they will come back.
0:00:27 They need to know you’re there, right?
0:00:28 Like knowing when you’re exploring
0:00:30 that your home base is there.
0:00:32 Like I think we all know feels very different
0:00:34 than checking for a home base
0:00:36 and feeling like it has dissolved, right?
0:00:38 And that to me says so much about the connection
0:00:40 of teens and parents during these really tricky years.
0:00:43 (upbeat music)
0:00:45 (upbeat music)
0:00:48 Welcome to The Knowledge Project,
0:01:01 a podcast about mastering the best
0:01:03 of what other people have already figured out
0:01:04 so you can apply their insights to your life.
0:01:07 I’m your host, Shane Parrish.
0:01:10 Every Sunday, I send out the brain food newsletter
0:01:12 to over 600,000 people.
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0:01:17 for the internet and is full of timeless wisdom
0:01:19 you can apply to life and work.
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0:01:42 Check out the show notes for a link.
0:01:45 Today, my guest is clinical psychologist,
0:01:47 Dr. Becky Kennedy.
0:01:49 She’s simply known as Dr. Becky
0:01:51 to the millions of people around the world.
0:01:53 She’s the author of “Good Inside,”
0:01:55 a guide to becoming the parent you want to be.
0:01:58 In this conversation, we discuss the eight most important
0:02:01 words you can say to your partner or child
0:02:03 when they tell you anything that’s hard,
0:02:05 setting boundaries, effective apologizing,
0:02:09 regulating emotions, both our own
0:02:11 and teaching our kids how to do the same thing,
0:02:14 the importance and step-by-step guide
0:02:16 to repairing after a blow-up with your kids or partner,
0:02:20 addiction, specifically around kids and screens
0:02:23 and video games, building confidence and resiliency,
0:02:27 and so much more.
0:02:28 After re-listening to this conversation,
0:02:30 I was struck by just how much of what we talk about
0:02:34 applies to kids, partners, coworkers, and ourselves.
0:02:38 Stick around at the end for my reflections.
0:02:41 It’s time to listen and learn.
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0:03:47 A message from the government of British Columbia.
0:03:50 – Let’s start with a common term that we use as adults.
0:03:56 And as adults, we use with our kids,
0:03:59 but I don’t know if I have a really good understanding
0:04:02 of it, which is what is a boundary?
0:04:05 So here’s how I define a boundary
0:04:06 and I define it this way
0:04:08 because then it’s something I can actually assess
0:04:11 and I can know if I’m setting one or not.
0:04:13 So to me, a boundary is something we tell someone else,
0:04:17 we will do and it requires the other person to do nothing.
0:04:22 And so the reason I really, really like that definition
0:04:27 is because we can then afterwards say, okay,
0:04:30 well, the thing I did, did I tell someone what I will do?
0:04:34 And does it require the other person to do nothing?
0:04:36 And almost always we say, no, like I actually kind of
0:04:40 was asking my kid to clean up the clothes on their floor,
0:04:44 which is something we all have to do.
0:04:45 I would say that’s a request.
0:04:46 We make requests of our kids all the time,
0:04:49 but learning to really differentiate a request
0:04:51 from a boundary is critical.
0:04:53 And it saves us from the frustration
0:04:55 and the cycle of my kid doesn’t respect my boundary
0:04:58 or this person doesn’t respect my boundary.
0:04:59 And to me, the way I think about boundaries
0:05:01 is someone kind of quote might not respect my boundary,
0:05:04 but if I am setting a boundary
0:05:07 that is dependent on what I’m doing
0:05:09 and is not at all dependent on what someone else does,
0:05:12 then I really retain a lot of power
0:05:14 and I really like that perspective.
0:05:16 – So what would be an example of like a boundary
0:05:19 and a relationship that you have with your partner
0:05:22 or your spouse and a boundary you might have
0:05:25 with a teenager?
0:05:27 – Let’s start with like a moment of frustration.
0:05:28 Where for you Shane, like where are you frustrated
0:05:30 with the spouse or where do you hear you’re like,
0:05:32 oh, people tend to like get frustrated
0:05:33 and want to set boundaries in this way.
0:05:35 – People disagree on what to do on a Friday night.
0:05:38 – Great, that’s great.
0:05:39 Okay, so let’s say, you know,
0:05:42 I tend to be tired at the end of a week
0:05:45 and I want to go to bed early and my partner’s like,
0:05:48 but I really like to have dinner together
0:05:49 and I want to have time together,
0:05:51 but I’m so frustrated ’cause I’m like,
0:05:52 my husband comes home at like nine o’clock
0:05:54 and expects me to like cook dinner then with him
0:05:56 and all of a sudden it’s 10 and I’m exhausted
0:05:58 and I want to connect too, right?
0:06:00 But here’s the situation.
0:06:02 So I think what we might do is we might say,
0:06:04 I really needed to be home by seven.
0:06:06 Like can you get home on seven on a Friday
0:06:08 and then that’s a place where we could cook dinner together?
0:06:10 And then let’s say my husband rolls in at nine
0:06:12 and I’m like, what the heck?
0:06:14 Like I told him to have dinner at seven
0:06:16 and like he didn’t do it
0:06:17 and he never listens to me and he doesn’t respect me
0:06:19 and we tell ourselves all these stories.
0:06:20 To me, I would say in that situation,
0:06:22 I was making a request of my husband.
0:06:24 I was making a request.
0:06:25 And most of the time in our relationships, by the way,
0:06:28 we can’t always set boundaries.
0:06:29 Like we do make requests
0:06:30 and hopefully our relationship is strong enough
0:06:32 with someone which we can talk about
0:06:35 where they would, you know, when they can honor our request,
0:06:38 right?
0:06:39 But I’m making a request because the success is dependent
0:06:42 on my husband coming home at seven,
0:06:44 which he just did not do.
0:06:46 Here’s a very different approach,
0:06:48 which I don’t always recommend taking
0:06:50 but sometimes we have to take
0:06:51 if we feel like we keep getting in situations
0:06:55 where we’re kind of really unsatisfied.
0:06:56 I’d say, hey, the last couple of weeks
0:06:58 we talked about you getting home at seven
0:07:00 or trying to, you keep getting home at nine.
0:07:02 Look, I don’t want to end up in that place again
0:07:04 where then I get tired and I get resentful
0:07:06 and we get in this fight.
0:07:07 I just want to be very, very clear.
0:07:09 I would love to have dinner with you tonight.
0:07:10 I really would.
0:07:11 And I know for me, if you’re not home by seven,
0:07:13 cooking together and having that connected moment,
0:07:16 it just is not going to then happen
0:07:17 in a way that feels good to me.
0:07:19 So if you get home by seven tonight,
0:07:20 I’m so excited that we can have dinner together.
0:07:22 And if you come home at nine, I get it.
0:07:24 You will probably find me having already
0:07:27 had a bowl of cereal and then reading in my bed
0:07:29 and I won’t be able to make dinner.
0:07:32 And we can talk about it again next week.
0:07:34 So it’s literally laying out what I will do.
0:07:39 And then let’s say my husband does get home at nine.
0:07:41 I might still be upset.
0:07:42 I mean, I’d be like, this is such a bummer, you know?
0:07:44 But I’m not going to feel so resentful.
0:07:47 I’m not going to feel so angry
0:07:49 because I laid out two situations based on my needs.
0:07:53 And either way, I have kind of a path I can walk down
0:07:58 that’s within my control.
0:07:59 – It doesn’t require him to do anything,
0:08:01 but at the same time he has a choice.
0:08:04 – Yeah, and people say, well,
0:08:05 is that just threatening your husband to me?
0:08:08 We really underplay like our intention
0:08:11 and how that intention then gets really felt by someone.
0:08:13 Like I could say the same thing to my husband.
0:08:15 I could say, look, and if you’re not home by nine,
0:08:18 I mean, I mean, if you’re not home by seven,
0:08:21 you’re going to find me in bed
0:08:23 and I’m not gonna have dinner.
0:08:24 Like if I said it that way,
0:08:26 I feel like you would receive it as like,
0:08:27 are you threatening me?
0:08:29 Like what’s going on?
0:08:30 Right?
0:08:31 It’s very different than, hey, sweetie,
0:08:33 like I don’t know, maybe works crazy busy for you.
0:08:35 Like I can respect that too.
0:08:36 And if you do get home at nine,
0:08:38 I just want to be very clear I will be in bed
0:08:40 because I’m just exhausted by then and I can’t cook
0:08:42 and I don’t want to feel resentment toward you.
0:08:44 And so I need to be with my book at that time.
0:08:46 Probably going to fall asleep
0:08:48 and hopefully we can get time together
0:08:49 at another point in the weekend.
0:08:50 Like I think you feel such different intention there, right?
0:08:54 So to me, boundaries are not threats.
0:08:57 They’re actually an assertion
0:08:59 of your own wants and needs within your relationship.
0:09:02 I feel like in that way,
0:09:03 a boundary is a way of saying to someone,
0:09:05 here’s what I need to still feel good in our relationship.
0:09:08 I think that’s actually another way to think about it.
0:09:11 Where so many times people worry,
0:09:12 my boundary is gonna threaten my relationship,
0:09:14 maybe with my husband or I tell my mother-in-law,
0:09:16 oh, they can’t come over a certain day,
0:09:18 but boundaries are really a way of saying,
0:09:20 this is what I need to continue feeling good
0:09:22 in our relationship.
0:09:23 And in that way, it’s actually a way of inviting someone
0:09:27 to maintain closeness with you.
0:09:29 – I like that.
0:09:30 And I really like how you described it.
0:09:32 And I want to come back to that after,
0:09:33 but I want to hit maybe teens
0:09:35 and what would be a good one around screen time,
0:09:37 which is something that all parents deal with, I’m sure.
0:09:41 – Love this, okay.
0:09:42 So when we think we’re setting a boundary,
0:09:45 but we’re really making a request, it might sound like this.
0:09:49 Hey, you can go on Fortnite for,
0:09:51 I don’t even like to name the number of minutes
0:09:54 ’cause when I do people will also be like,
0:09:55 oh, my kid does more than that, is that bad?
0:09:57 But let’s just say X number of minutes, okay?
0:09:58 You can play Fortnite for X number of minutes.
0:10:00 And after that, I want you to turn it off
0:10:03 and come to the kitchen, okay?
0:10:05 Now, if you know video games and I know video games,
0:10:08 and if you know phones and I know phones,
0:10:10 the idea that your kid is going to be able to stop themselves
0:10:12 at a certain time is just probably setting everyone up
0:10:14 for failure, it’s just you get sucked in,
0:10:16 it’s not about willpower, it gets you addicted,
0:10:19 you’re in a game, and either way still,
0:10:21 I’m making a request, the success of what I just said
0:10:24 to my kid is dependent on them doing this.
0:10:27 If it’s so important for me, for my kid
0:10:30 to only play Fortnite for X number of minutes,
0:10:32 I could say one of two things.
0:10:34 Hey, I just wanted to be perfectly clear
0:10:36 about what will happen after X number of minutes.
0:10:39 If you’re still playing, and I really don’t want to do this,
0:10:43 I am going to come in, and I am going to take the remote,
0:10:47 and I am going to turn it off.
0:10:49 Like, I don’t want to get there, I’m sure you don’t either,
0:10:51 so maybe we should do the whole thing we talked about
0:10:53 where you said a timer five minutes before,
0:10:54 and you actually determine if you have time
0:10:56 for another game, so you’re not in the middle of it
0:10:57 when I turn it off, or maybe I say,
0:10:59 hey, I am going to use a new system,
0:11:01 I’m going to use this form of parental controls
0:11:03 where your iPad turns off at a certain number of minutes
0:11:06 with the five minute warning before,
0:11:08 and so at the end of that amount of time,
0:11:10 it is going to go off, I just wanted to let you know
0:11:12 what’s going to happen.
0:11:13 The success of what I just said is not dependent
0:11:16 on my teenager quote, listening to me.
0:11:19 My boundary is now totally within my control.
0:11:22 – I like that a lot, and I love the way
0:11:24 that you explain this to them.
0:11:26 How do you learn how to do that?
0:11:28 And both when you were talking to your fictional
0:11:32 sort of partner around, hey, I really want to have dinner
0:11:35 with you, if you’re not home at this time,
0:11:37 it probably means we’re not going to have dinner together,
0:11:39 I’m not going to be able to do that, you know.
0:11:41 How do you learn how to talk like that
0:11:43 if it’s not modeled for you as a child?
0:11:46 Like how do you as an adult learn
0:11:48 how to communicate in that way?
0:11:49 Which when you say it, that strikes me as so effective,
0:11:52 but whenever I want to talk about something
0:11:55 like this in my head, it never comes out that good.
0:11:57 – I love that question, and there’s a couple of ways
0:11:59 I want to answer it.
0:12:00 So first of all, to me inherent in your question
0:12:04 actually was like the idea of like learning in general.
0:12:08 I don’t know, we all learn a lot of stuff
0:12:09 by the time we’re adults that my guess is
0:12:11 is not inherent to us, right?
0:12:13 And most of the things we learn aren’t inherent,
0:12:15 it’s not actually inherent to learn how to swim.
0:12:17 Like if you don’t learn how to swim,
0:12:18 you’ll be an adult who can’t swim,
0:12:20 there’s plenty of adults who can’t swim,
0:12:21 it doesn’t just come to you with age.
0:12:22 I think actually that’s one of the most powerful things
0:12:24 I think about is like age does not teach skills, right?
0:12:27 People are like, at what point will my kid
0:12:30 no longer engage in X behavior at what age?
0:12:32 I’m like, well, what are you doing in these years?
0:12:34 You know, like either in this amount of time or never,
0:12:36 depending on what we do, right?
0:12:38 So just like you can teach someone to swim
0:12:40 or you can teach someone a new language,
0:12:42 like we can all learn more effective ways to communicate.
0:12:47 And it’s just in the realm of things
0:12:50 that we often don’t think of as a skill.
0:12:52 Like for some reason we think I should either
0:12:54 know how to do that or I’m not an effective communicator
0:12:57 but someone else should just get what I’m trying to say
0:13:00 instead of thinking, oh, like how could I learn this?
0:13:02 I think there’s a lot of practice that’s involved.
0:13:05 No, more concretely than that,
0:13:07 I think what you’re noticing in the way I modeled
0:13:10 those two kind of boundary setting situations,
0:13:12 first of all, let me just say like,
0:13:13 if you think I would actually say that
0:13:15 in the heat of the moment to my kids, like I would it,
0:13:17 like my husband’s like listening to this thing like,
0:13:19 can you please talk to me like that
0:13:21 because you don’t sound that nice.
0:13:22 So please listeners, do not think–
0:13:24 – He’s gonna leave a comment on YouTube.
0:13:26 – Like don’t think I do this all the time, okay?
0:13:29 But when we are kind of upset with someone
0:13:32 or have been frustrated with someone,
0:13:34 we have the tendency to approach them
0:13:36 in a very adversarial way.
0:13:38 And then how we think about someone
0:13:40 affects how we communicate to them.
0:13:42 So if I was like, my husband doesn’t respect me
0:13:44 and my husband cares more about work
0:13:46 than he does about my relationship,
0:13:47 then you know what I’m gonna say to him?
0:13:49 Hey, if you’re not home by seven,
0:13:51 just not gonna be waiting for you
0:13:54 because I have things to do in my life too, right?
0:13:56 Of course, because that’s the mindset I’m in.
0:13:59 And I think this is such a general point
0:14:00 and I’ll share it because I think it’s applicable
0:14:03 to every life situation
0:14:05 that when you’re in conflict with someone,
0:14:07 you’re in one of two mindsets
0:14:08 and I’m a very visual person, so explain it visually.
0:14:11 You’re either sitting on one side of the table
0:14:14 and you’re looking at them
0:14:15 as if they’re sitting on the other side of the table,
0:14:17 kind of how I’m looking at you.
0:14:19 And I’m looking at you like you are the problem.
0:14:22 And so I’m on one side of the table,
0:14:24 you’re on the other side of the table
0:14:25 and I’m looking at you like you are the problem.
0:14:28 Okay, the other mindset we can be in
0:14:31 is I’m on one side of the table
0:14:34 and let’s say Shane, you’re sitting next to me
0:14:37 on the same side of the table
0:14:40 and together we are looking at a problem.
0:14:44 I actually think this is like profound
0:14:46 because to me, nobody should ever communicate with anybody
0:14:49 until you get yourself in that second mindset.
0:14:52 We often think, what are the words?
0:14:54 What do I say?
0:14:54 What’s the script?
0:14:56 At the end of the day, the mindset’s gonna win, right?
0:14:58 Or the script won’t be effective
0:15:00 because you’re in an adversarial mindset
0:15:02 and the person will feel that, right?
0:15:04 And so I think the kind of biggest skill
0:15:08 is recognizing what mindset am I in.
0:15:10 And I think we have a lot of clues to that.
0:15:11 Like even when we start to think about the person
0:15:14 we wanna talk to,
0:15:15 we can even notice the language we’re using, right?
0:15:17 Like, oh, my husband doesn’t respect me.
0:15:19 He’s always at work.
0:15:20 Like he doesn’t even care about our relationship.
0:15:21 I definitely know what mindset I’m in, right?
0:15:24 If I’m in the second mindset,
0:15:25 I’d probably be saying like,
0:15:27 wow, he’s really overloaded at work
0:15:29 and I miss him, right?
0:15:32 Maybe I say that, I’ve really missed my husband.
0:15:34 I wonder if I’ve ever told him that.
0:15:35 That’s very much like,
0:15:36 me and my husband are on the same side of the table
0:15:39 and we’re kind of looking at the problem of,
0:15:42 you know, not being as connected as we used to be.
0:15:45 Kind of like, now all of a sudden,
0:15:47 also I feel different in that mindset.
0:15:48 Like I honestly feel sad just saying that to you right now.
0:15:50 Like, oh, it stinks.
0:15:52 And maybe my husband feels that way.
0:15:53 Maybe he’s not even aware that he feels that way,
0:15:55 but maybe he does.
0:15:56 And maybe he’s nervous about his job
0:15:58 and he feels like he’s gonna get fired
0:15:59 and he thinks he’s gonna let me down
0:16:00 if he does that ’cause he’s the breadwinner.
0:16:02 I’m making these things up.
0:16:03 But when I’m in a me and you against a problem mindset,
0:16:08 we communicate completely differently.
0:16:10 Same with our teen, right?
0:16:12 Like me versus you and a simple thing could be,
0:16:15 you never pick up the towel.
0:16:16 Like how many times do I tell you to pick up a towel?
0:16:17 Like you see the towel on the ground.
0:16:20 Like just pick it up and put it in your bathroom,
0:16:22 hang it up versus, hey, look,
0:16:25 we both know towels on the floor.
0:16:27 Like we both know that’s not where they go.
0:16:29 And you’re a responsible kid.
0:16:31 Like and I know you have heard what I’ve said.
0:16:35 So there must be something getting in your way of remembering.
0:16:37 Like there must be.
0:16:39 ‘Cause I don’t think you look at the towel
0:16:40 and think I’m gonna piss off my mom.
0:16:41 Like I really don’t think that’s happening.
0:16:42 So can we figure this out together?
0:16:44 Like what would make it easier for you to remember?
0:16:47 Like I actually had this
0:16:48 with my own, my 12 year old son recently.
0:16:50 And he’s like, mom, it’s so funny.
0:16:51 I walk out of my room.
0:16:52 I don’t even see the towel.
0:16:53 Like I don’t even see it.
0:16:54 Like I guess I drop it and then I don’t even see it.
0:16:56 And I was like, oh, that’s really interesting.
0:16:57 What do you see?
0:16:58 I just said, I mean, I just see the wall
0:17:00 and I see my door.
0:17:02 And I was like, oh, that actually gives me an idea.
0:17:04 I don’t know if it gives you the same idea.
0:17:05 Like what would you need to jog your memory?
0:17:07 And he goes, I mean, I guess I could just like
0:17:08 put up a post on my door that says pick up my towel.
0:17:11 I know it sounds so silly, but like I could cry.
0:17:14 And I was like, that’s an amazing idea.
0:17:15 Like, and he did it.
0:17:16 And he just like, he did it.
0:17:17 He literally just like wrote in his old handwriting
0:17:19 ’cause he’s 12 and I don’t have to do that for him.
0:17:20 And he put it on his door.
0:17:21 And does he pick it up every time?
0:17:23 He just not.
0:17:24 Does he pick it up massively more often?
0:17:26 Yes.
0:17:27 But the only way we get there is
0:17:29 by kind of assuming good intent, being on the same team.
0:17:32 And together we were kind of looking at this towel
0:17:34 on the floor problem versus me looking at my son.
0:17:38 I have like, he’s an asshole who is the problem.
0:17:41 Yeah, it’s kind of like you’re not doing what I want.
0:17:43 Therefore we’re in this adversarial situation.
0:17:47 But I don’t see what’s going on inside you, right?
0:17:51 I don’t see, you know, the partner at work
0:17:54 who’s worried about their job
0:17:55 ’cause these are all things that are sort of inside somebody
0:17:58 that aren’t communicated.
0:17:59 And for kids and teens, especially,
0:18:02 I would imagine they’re going through so much already
0:18:04 in life with school, with friends, with their body changes.
0:18:09 And we don’t see any of that.
0:18:11 We’re just like, why can’t you pick up a towel?
0:18:13 Like, what’s wrong with you?
0:18:13 That’s right.
0:18:14 But there’s nothing wrong with them, right?
0:18:16 Yeah.
0:18:16 And, you know, I think there’s so much more there too.
0:18:19 Like my son probably doesn’t care about his towel
0:18:20 on the floor.
0:18:21 And I don’t know if something so bad
0:18:22 gonna happen if his towel is on the floor.
0:18:24 It’s probably not.
0:18:25 Like, I don’t think the world’s gonna end.
0:18:26 I don’t think his, you know, room is gonna be ruined.
0:18:28 It just is my preference.
0:18:29 And so really we’re saying,
0:18:32 well, why would my kid start caring about something
0:18:34 he doesn’t care about?
0:18:36 And his mom does care about.
0:18:38 And that actually has everything to do
0:18:40 with just kind of the strength of our relationship
0:18:42 in that moment.
0:18:43 And, you know, it’s kind of why any of us do things
0:18:45 we don’t wanna do, but other people care about
0:18:48 because we just feel close to them.
0:18:49 And like, we like, you know,
0:18:50 taking care of their needs sometimes, right?
0:18:54 And so, so much of that and approaching a teen in that,
0:18:56 like, hey, I respect you.
0:18:58 Like, here’s the situation.
0:18:59 Let’s think through it together.
0:19:01 That’s the only way you’re gonna get
0:19:02 to a productive solution anyway,
0:19:04 because teenagers inherently,
0:19:05 they don’t care about their towel on the floor.
0:19:06 They don’t care about their messy room.
0:19:08 They don’t care about, you know,
0:19:09 being on their phones longer than we want them to be.
0:19:12 And so the status of our relationship with our kids
0:19:15 and our partner, it’s really cordial, like everything.
0:19:18 – Parenting teens is tricky.
0:19:20 I’m just, what are the indications
0:19:24 that you have a really strong relationship with your teen?
0:19:27 And what are the indications that it’s going the wrong way
0:19:31 and you should probably intervene before it gets really bad?
0:19:35 – That’s a good question.
0:19:36 You know, my first reaction,
0:19:38 like the loudest thing in my mind,
0:19:40 I think a lot of parents have a sense of like how they’re,
0:19:43 like they just have like an inherent sense of like,
0:19:45 how close am I to my teen, how are things going?
0:19:48 You know, I guess in one way,
0:19:50 it feels like every interaction is a ton of conflict.
0:19:52 It’s just like a series of misunderstanding.
0:19:54 And I think that doesn’t feel great to either.
0:19:56 I guess in the middle is like,
0:19:57 well, we don’t have any over conflict,
0:19:59 but like, do we talk about things?
0:20:01 Like, do I know about the things that are going on
0:20:03 in their life?
0:20:04 Would they come to me if they were struggling?
0:20:08 Would they come to me if they were struggling with something
0:20:11 that they worry could quote, get them in trouble?
0:20:14 Right?
0:20:16 You know, I think, I think a lot about attachment
0:20:19 in relationships, right?
0:20:20 Not attachment parenting,
0:20:21 but the idea that how kids attach to connect to their
0:20:26 caregivers, their parents really forms the foundation
0:20:29 for a lot of different things in their life,
0:20:30 for how they’re able to regulate emotions,
0:20:32 for how they think about themselves,
0:20:35 for how they build confidence and resilience.
0:20:37 Actually, the model they take into adulthood
0:20:39 about what a healthy relationship is, right?
0:20:43 There’s so many things.
0:20:45 And when our kids are teens,
0:20:48 what’s really, really tricky is,
0:20:51 you know, they’re like explorers in the world.
0:20:52 I mean, that’s like how I think about teens.
0:20:54 Like that’s what their job is.
0:20:55 Their job is to explore.
0:20:56 They’re trying to figure out who they are.
0:20:57 Their job is to go through this kind of identity formation
0:21:00 phase.
0:21:01 And as we remember, when we were younger,
0:21:04 the way you start to form your identity when you’re a teen
0:21:07 is actually through a lot of separation from your parents.
0:21:09 That’s actually though your job.
0:21:10 Your job is actually to start to separate from them.
0:21:14 And a lot of teens, most teens, they overshoot.
0:21:17 Just like we did.
0:21:18 But you have to kind of overshoot distance
0:21:20 to be like, I am nothing like my parent.
0:21:21 And if my parent tells me a rule,
0:21:23 the quickest way to figure out my own person
0:21:26 is to just like reject it.
0:21:27 Even if it makes sense for me.
0:21:28 It’s just like, you know, you kind of overshoot.
0:21:31 But if I go back to the idea of like teens being explorers,
0:21:35 ’cause they do, they try out so many things.
0:21:36 They kind of need to explore away
0:21:38 from their home country, right?
0:21:40 I also think a lot about like the difference
0:21:43 between like an explorer and a nomad.
0:21:45 And I feel like the big difference
0:21:48 is an explorer has a home base.
0:21:50 And I have the chills as I say that.
0:21:51 Like they have a home base to come back to.
0:21:53 And just knowing they have a home base
0:21:55 gives them a lot of confidence in their exploration.
0:21:58 Or a nomad, it doesn’t really have a home base.
0:22:02 And when I think about teens and parents,
0:22:04 I think a lot about that.
0:22:05 Like a teen’s job is to explore.
0:22:07 A parent’s kind of in the home country.
0:22:09 Like also feeling lost a lot.
0:22:11 Like where’s my kid who like used to want to talk to me more.
0:22:13 Who used to like be around more.
0:22:16 I used to be their primary focus.
0:22:18 But what I always want parents of teens to know
0:22:22 is like your teen still needs you in the most intense way.
0:22:26 Because they cannot be a nomad in life.
0:22:28 Like that is not what they’re looking for.
0:22:30 And they will come back.
0:22:32 They need to know you’re there, right?
0:22:33 Like knowing when you’re exploring
0:22:35 that your home base is there.
0:22:37 Like I think we all know feels very different
0:22:39 than checking for a home base
0:22:41 and feeling like it has dissolved, right?
0:22:43 And that to me says so much about the connection
0:22:46 of teens and parents during these really tricky years.
0:22:48 – As you were saying that,
0:22:49 I just had this thought that maybe it’s weird,
0:22:52 but I want to check this with you.
0:22:54 I’m home every day when my kids get home from school.
0:22:57 I have been since they were in elementary school,
0:23:00 I’d do the same thing now that they’re basically
0:23:02 in high school, much to their dismay, right?
0:23:07 This is like, and you were talking
0:23:09 and you were like, they have to be away from their parents.
0:23:11 They have to get this time away.
0:23:13 And so when they come home from school, it’s like, I’m there.
0:23:16 And is that a good thing or a bad thing?
0:23:18 Or like, how do you think about that?
0:23:20 – I mean, I don’t think it’s a good thing or a bad thing.
0:23:22 First of all, they’re away from you.
0:23:23 They’re in school, they have their whole world, you know?
0:23:25 And so I think that’s a lot of the ways they start to explore.
0:23:29 And kids also, by the way, they explore in their thoughts.
0:23:31 They explore by engaging and listening to music
0:23:34 that their parents hate
0:23:35 or entertaining ideas, right?
0:23:37 So it doesn’t just have to be physical separation.
0:23:40 I feel mixed about a parent who’s always there.
0:23:43 First of all, parents are like, I’m at work,
0:23:45 I’m not there, am I messing up my kids?
0:23:46 No, I frankly, often at my office,
0:23:49 when my kids come home, there’s not one right way.
0:23:52 I think it’s a dance, you know?
0:23:53 And I think about this a lot with my own childhood.
0:23:55 And I’ve talked about this a lot with my mom
0:23:57 because we mom in very different ways,
0:23:59 like I do now when she did then, she was always there.
0:24:02 Like I feel like she was someone who was always there, right?
0:24:05 And like down to, I remember days in like middle school
0:24:08 or high school, even when I was older,
0:24:10 I was like, oh, I forgot the lunch I wanted at home.
0:24:12 And she’d be like, I am driving it to you right now, you know?
0:24:15 Like it was just always there.
0:24:17 And one of the things we reflected on a lot together,
0:24:19 and it actually kind of relates to confidence
0:24:21 so we can bring it all together as always happens,
0:24:25 is I feel like I could have benefited a little more
0:24:30 from like, mom’s not available right now.
0:24:33 And kind of like, and I know like not having my lunch
0:24:36 is just one example, it’s a tiny example,
0:24:38 but even that small example, like I know I would have been like,
0:24:40 oh, I guess I have to go to the cafeteria
0:24:42 and I guess I have to like find something or I don’t know,
0:24:44 maybe I would have remembered to like pack it the next day,
0:24:46 like in even, you know, bigger way
0:24:48 because I don’t want to have that happen again.
0:24:50 I think on the other side, right?
0:24:52 Especially as kids get older,
0:24:53 it’s so easy to do what I call like taking the bait
0:24:56 from teens, like you don’t understand me
0:24:59 and I don’t want to be with you anymore.
0:25:00 I just want to be my friends and get your own life
0:25:02 and get out of my room.
0:25:03 And parents are like, I guess my kids don’t care.
0:25:05 So like, I’ll never be home when they’re home.
0:25:07 And, you know, they slam the door on my face.
0:25:10 And so it’s on them to like, you know, say something to me
0:25:13 and I’m going to kind of give them the silent treatment
0:25:15 till they do both extremes, I think can like any extremes
0:25:19 can like hold kids back, you know?
0:25:21 And I think we want to give kids at every age room
0:25:25 to like be on their own and kind of the trust in that.
0:25:28 And I think it’s benefit so much from that distance,
0:25:32 but they only benefit from that distance
0:25:36 when they kind of have internalized
0:25:38 and still kind of have access most times
0:25:41 to that kind of secure base.
0:25:43 So I’m not trying to get out of the question,
0:25:45 but I really do think it’s this dance.
0:25:47 Because if I think about my own childhood
0:25:49 and I think about like, I feel like my secure base
0:25:51 is with me all the time.
0:25:52 And as I got older, it was like, well, is that me?
0:25:55 Was that my parents?
0:25:56 Like, I think it took me longer to trust myself.
0:25:58 Even now, amidst uncertainty and struggle,
0:26:01 it’s still something I work on with myself
0:26:03 because I feel like I did almost have this system
0:26:07 so close all the time that I probably didn’t learn
0:26:11 to like trust myself, that I could really figure things out
0:26:14 and get through things in a way
0:26:17 that could have been really helpful to me.
0:26:19 – So that leads naturally into sort of confidence
0:26:22 and specifically resiliency.
0:26:24 What can we do as parents of teenagers
0:26:28 to build that resiliency?
0:26:29 Other, I mean, obviously giving our kids room to fail
0:26:33 and opportunities to struggle.
0:26:35 Aside from that, what is it that we can do?
0:26:38 And like, are there specific things that we can do
0:26:40 that you’re like, oh, this is a great way
0:26:42 to let your 14 or 15 year old fail or struggle or?
0:26:47 – I mean, I think there are kind of very,
0:26:49 very related concepts, you know, confidence and resilience.
0:26:52 But I’ll start with kind of framing up confidence
0:26:55 because I think the way I think about it is a little different.
0:26:57 And again, if we’re ever trying to build a trait,
0:26:59 I think we have to be like so clear about what the trait is
0:27:02 or else we’re gonna be building something
0:27:03 in a direction that might not be so productive.
0:27:05 – Well, let’s define them both then,
0:27:07 confidence and resiliency, yeah.
0:27:08 – So to me, confidence, I think people think about confidence
0:27:11 as like feeling good about yourself.
0:27:12 And like, I think that could not be further
0:27:14 for what confidence is.
0:27:16 To me, confidence is self-trust,
0:27:18 which I think is very different
0:27:20 from feeling good about yourself.
0:27:21 And in a related way, you know,
0:27:25 I think often like, confidence isn’t feeling
0:27:27 like the best at something.
0:27:29 It’s feeling like it’s okay to be you
0:27:31 when you’re not the best at something.
0:27:33 And it’s like trusting yourself in those moments.
0:27:35 So like I said to you earlier,
0:27:38 I don’t like to have ideas about actionable strategies
0:27:40 ’cause I can’t operate that way.
0:27:41 So let’s like play out some situations, right?
0:27:44 And I think this will drive it home.
0:27:46 So your kid comes home and they’re like,
0:27:48 I’m the only one of my friends
0:27:49 who didn’t make the football team.
0:27:50 I don’t know making this up, right?
0:27:52 I’m the only one of my friends.
0:27:52 It’s so embarrassing.
0:27:53 I’m the only one who didn’t make the football team.
0:27:55 And I think we think that like what we need to say
0:27:57 to our kid there or what they’re looking for,
0:27:59 or even like, I want to build my kid’s confidence.
0:28:02 They seem so not confident now.
0:28:03 ‘Cause they’re like, I’m the only one who didn’t make it.
0:28:05 I stink.
0:28:06 And like, you know, is, well, like,
0:28:09 you’re the only one who made varsity basketball.
0:28:12 You know, they all made JV.
0:28:13 And like, you’re the only one who was on varsity basketball.
0:28:15 Or like, you’re an honors math.
0:28:16 And, you know, we like say these things like that.
0:28:19 And if we think about confidence as self-trust,
0:28:22 then if we break down that situation,
0:28:23 that kid is coming to us saying,
0:28:24 I feel sad and disappointed.
0:28:26 And we’re saying to them, no, you don’t, right?
0:28:31 And I’m an imagery person, as you can see.
0:28:34 So to me, this idea of like the feelings bench
0:28:37 really, really like brings us to life
0:28:40 and gets really concrete and palpable for parents
0:28:42 to use then in their home.
0:28:44 So our kids, you know, are feeling down like they often do.
0:28:47 You know, they didn’t get a good grade in a test
0:28:49 or someone broke up with them
0:28:50 or now their friends dating the person that they liked
0:28:52 or they didn’t make the football team
0:28:53 or, you know, they’re gels to their brother
0:28:55 who’s, you know, always doing XYZ and they can’t,
0:28:58 whatever it is.
0:28:59 And to me, the image I want parents to think about
0:29:01 is like, my kid in life is like in a garden
0:29:04 that’s full of benches.
0:29:05 That’s like life, okay, is in this metaphor.
0:29:07 And in this moment, they’re sitting on the bench of,
0:29:10 and I don’t know, maybe this is the bench of
0:29:11 I didn’t make the football team.
0:29:13 Or maybe if we generalize,
0:29:14 it’s the bench of something didn’t go my way
0:29:16 or I’m disappointed or I’m embarrassed.
0:29:19 You know, probably all of those things come up.
0:29:21 And they’re sitting on that bench.
0:29:22 And as parents, we often have two urges.
0:29:24 One is one I named.
0:29:25 We kind of tell them their bench isn’t their bench, right?
0:29:28 Or we like see a sunnier bench in the garden.
0:29:31 It’s like the bench of, well, you made varsity basketball
0:29:34 and we’re like, just come, like come with me, right?
0:29:37 Just come with me to that bench ’cause it’s sunnier.
0:29:39 But that does a couple of very unintended things to kids.
0:29:43 Number one, they have a feeling of being disappointed.
0:29:47 The feelings already registered in their body.
0:29:49 And when kids are young,
0:29:50 they’re actually just learning about their feelings.
0:29:51 They’re like, am I allowed to have certain feelings?
0:29:53 How do I cope with certain feelings?
0:29:55 And a lot of how they learn that
0:29:56 is through their relationship with us.
0:29:58 And then they actually take those lessons into adulthood.
0:30:00 And so when our kids feeling disappointed,
0:30:03 one of the things they learn
0:30:04 when we kind of tell them their bench isn’t their bench
0:30:07 or tell them they should be on some other bench is like,
0:30:08 oh, I guess I’m not supposed to feel disappointed.
0:30:11 And they also learn this feeling
0:30:12 that feels very overwhelming to me.
0:30:14 Like it’s actually very overwhelming to my parent.
0:30:16 Like they don’t even want me to feel this way.
0:30:17 I guess it’s dangerous.
0:30:18 Like I guess I shouldn’t feel that way.
0:30:21 Now, I don’t think either of us know any adult in life
0:30:24 who’s gotten rid of disappointment.
0:30:25 Like you’re going to feel disappointed when you lose a job.
0:30:28 You’re going to feel disappointed
0:30:29 when someone breaks up with you
0:30:30 and you’re even you’re going to feel disappointed
0:30:32 when your flight has a delay, right?
0:30:33 And how you cope with those things doesn’t start in adulthood.
0:30:36 How you cope with those things comes from your history
0:30:39 of how you learned to cope with those things
0:30:41 in your earliest years
0:30:42 when you were wiring circuitry around your emotions
0:30:47 in your body.
0:30:48 And so the reason so many adults have so many difficulties
0:30:52 regulating their emotions in their older
0:30:53 actually comes from these early years.
0:30:56 So if we go back to what is far superior, right?
0:30:59 Or not far superior, it feels judgmental.
0:31:01 If we go back to what I would encourage a parent to do,
0:31:03 not only to build coping skills and resilience
0:31:05 but also confidence, okay?
0:31:07 As I think about three lines
0:31:09 and I’m going to be super concrete to me.
0:31:10 These are three lines that like parents should like write down.
0:31:14 They should like commit to memory.
0:31:16 They should also use it their partners
0:31:17 because they’re just good relationship lines.
0:31:19 When someone tells you something disappointing,
0:31:21 like I didn’t make the football team sucks.
0:31:22 I’m so embarrassed.
0:31:23 I’m the worst football player.
0:31:24 Number one, just I am so glad you’re talking to me about this.
0:31:28 Like it is the most beautiful first line
0:31:31 to say to someone when they’re upset
0:31:32 because what you’re deeply saying to them
0:31:34 and how they receive it is like I am interested
0:31:37 in the part of you who’s feeling this way.
0:31:39 The part of you who’s feeling this way is connectable to me.
0:31:42 Like I want to hear more about it.
0:31:43 I will attach to this part of you.
0:31:47 And when you tell that to someone,
0:31:48 they’re automatically willing to tell you more
0:31:52 because it’s like an opening of a door.
0:31:53 Like I imagine someone went to a boss
0:31:55 and they were like, I really feel like I deserve a promotion.
0:31:57 If the boss like, I’m so glad you’re talking to me about this.
0:31:59 Like even if the boss says no,
0:32:01 like you’re going to be like, wow,
0:32:02 that was a great conversation, you know?
0:32:04 So, and when you’re doing that,
0:32:05 what I want parents to imagine is like,
0:32:07 you’re just sitting on the bench next to your kid.
0:32:09 That’s literally what you’re doing.
0:32:10 You’re just sitting down.
0:32:12 You’re not saying that bench is in their bench.
0:32:14 You’re not taking them out.
0:32:15 You’re just sitting down.
0:32:16 And then the second line
0:32:18 that I think is the ultimate confidence builder
0:32:20 if confidence is self-trust is just, I believe you.
0:32:24 Yeah, I went to the list and my name wasn’t on it.
0:32:26 And like they literally were all high-fiving
0:32:28 and then I was like the only one not, you know,
0:32:32 not doing that.
0:32:33 And they all looked at me with such pity
0:32:34 and it was like the worst day of my life.
0:32:36 I believe you.
0:32:37 When you say I believe you to someone,
0:32:39 you’re not saying I agree.
0:32:40 That was the worst day of your life.
0:32:42 You’re literally just saying,
0:32:43 I believe the things you’re telling me.
0:32:44 I believe your feelings are valid and real.
0:32:47 And then the third line is just tell me more.
0:32:49 And I think often with parents, they’ll say like, okay,
0:32:52 and then what, and then what?
0:32:56 And I love this question and I’m such like a fixer too.
0:33:00 But like, and then nothing.
0:33:02 And then you’ve done,
0:33:04 you have literally crushed parenting that moment.
0:33:07 You should be like, I’m done for the rest of the day.
0:33:08 Might eat bonbons and watch some Netflix.
0:33:10 I just, and you massively built your kid’s confidence
0:33:14 because if we think about kids when they’re older,
0:33:18 you want kids when they’re feeling tricky things
0:33:20 to be like, yeah, I really do feel this way.
0:33:22 I really am upset that my partner said that thing to me.
0:33:25 I really am disappointed that I didn’t get that job, right?
0:33:29 I really am angry that I was promised, you know,
0:33:33 I don’t know a raise and didn’t get it, right?
0:33:35 Learning that you can trust your emotions
0:33:38 actually is the core of how you regulate your emotions
0:33:41 and how you make good decisions
0:33:42 because you can use your energy around, okay,
0:33:44 what do I do next instead of all the energy
0:33:46 of like trying to figure out what’s going on inside you.
0:33:48 And so to me, that’s really what confidence is.
0:33:51 And because if someone can feel like their parents
0:33:55 are able to tolerate their disappointment,
0:33:57 then what the kid really learns is like,
0:34:01 I can still be me when I’m disappointed.
0:34:02 I’m still like a valuable person.
0:34:04 This feeling clearly is like an acceptable part of me.
0:34:06 It’s not all of me.
0:34:07 I don’t have to fight to get rid of it.
0:34:09 That’s really how we build confidence.
0:34:11 – One common thing that I see with my kids
0:34:15 and I’m sure other kids, and it drives me insane.
0:34:18 There’s like a few triggers I have
0:34:21 and one of them is laziness.
0:34:23 And the other is sort of in that situation,
0:34:26 I’ll relate it to sort of like they come home,
0:34:28 they get a bad score on a test or an assignment
0:34:31 and they blame something exterior to themselves.
0:34:37 The teacher didn’t communicate clearly.
0:34:40 I saved the document, but it didn’t save my edits.
0:34:45 And it’s absolving them of sort of responsibility
0:34:49 and fault in that moment.
0:34:51 And how do we deal with that as parents?
0:34:54 Where it’s like, ’cause that trait, that single trait,
0:34:57 if it takes root, can be so detrimental in life
0:35:02 where you become a victim of circumstance
0:35:04 instead of the master of your circumstances.
0:35:07 – I’m so big on personal responsibility too.
0:35:10 And so that’s like triggering for me too
0:35:12 from like a personal standpoint, so I join you in that.
0:35:15 So I think first, and I always think this is true,
0:35:17 like we have to understand before we intervene.
0:35:20 Like that to me, every workshop I do,
0:35:22 that’s like about problem behaviors or sleep or, you know,
0:35:26 rudeness, like that’s always the first section.
0:35:28 And parents, it’s always so interesting
0:35:29 ’cause they’ll take this workshop and they’ll say,
0:35:31 “Oh my goodness, like everything feels better in my home.”
0:35:33 And I’m like, “I don’t even get to the strategies yet.”
0:35:35 Because we underestimate how many of our issues
0:35:38 with our kids or any relationship
0:35:40 actually comes from not understanding.
0:35:41 And as soon as we understand something, it’s amazing.
0:35:43 It’s like we immediately feel better.
0:35:45 So I think first, it’s like, “Well, why is my son doing that?”
0:35:48 Why is he saying, “Well, it didn’t save.”
0:35:50 Or, “Well, the teachers asked all these questions
0:35:52 that they said wouldn’t even be on the test.”
0:35:54 Right, they say something like that, right?
0:35:56 And I think it’s really important to get curious there.
0:35:57 Like, why would my kid do that?
0:36:00 And to me, the reason, like everything I do,
0:36:02 the company, the membership, is called Good Inside,
0:36:05 is ’cause to me, that’s like the principle
0:36:06 that allows us to be curious about our kids.
0:36:08 Our kids are good inside.
0:36:09 So why would my good kid
0:36:11 kind of like totally share responsibility?
0:36:13 And it’s really separating who they are from their identity,
0:36:16 they’re a good kid, from certain behavior,
0:36:19 which is something that happened, right?
0:36:21 When we are most frustrated with our kids,
0:36:23 it’s because we’ve collapsed the two.
0:36:25 My kid is just kind of like a shitty kid
0:36:27 who doesn’t take undersensibility
0:36:28 versus I have a good kid who is struggling with something.
0:36:31 So I think one of the best ways
0:36:33 I can be curious about my kids is I’m like,
0:36:35 “Well, why would I do that?
0:36:36 Why would I be in a situation where instead of being like,
0:36:39 “Oh my goodness, I was late and I should have left earlier,”
0:36:41 I was like, “You’ve no idea about the traffic
0:36:42 and you’ve no idea about the car in front of me.
0:36:45 Oh my goodness,” right?
0:36:46 So I’m just making this up now.
0:36:48 But oddly enough, I think I would do that
0:36:50 when I felt so bad.
0:36:53 I felt both simultaneously like so guilty
0:36:57 and so unable to tolerate that guilt.
0:37:02 And this is actually gonna circle back
0:37:03 to the idea of separating identity and behavior.
0:37:06 Oddly enough, kids tend to shirk responsibility
0:37:11 and kind of seem unwilling to reflect on their role of things
0:37:15 when they equate a certain outcome
0:37:18 with kind of being an indication of who they are.
0:37:22 So let me say that in a better way that’s clearer.
0:37:25 So if your son thinks like, “Let’s say I got like a,
0:37:28 “whatever it is, a 70 on this test.”
0:37:30 If when he gets a 70, what happens inside him
0:37:33 is like, “I’m so stupid, I can’t believe
0:37:34 “like I got a 70 in math.”
0:37:36 That will make him tell the story
0:37:38 while my teacher asked about things that were unfair
0:37:40 because he can’t tolerate the idea
0:37:41 that he’s like a stupid kid in math.
0:37:43 Nobody can tolerate that idea.
0:37:45 And actually, so the first step is like
0:37:47 trying to help our kids separate.
0:37:48 Wait, like you’re a good smart kid
0:37:49 who clearly like got a not so great thing,
0:37:52 great on their test, right?
0:37:53 And when we’re able to separate who we are
0:37:56 from what we do, we’re actually remarkably able
0:37:58 to take responsibility for our behavior
0:38:00 because it’s no longer an indication of our identity.
0:38:04 So, okay, if that’s part of the understanding,
0:38:05 I know for me in my mind, I’m like, “Hey, so what do I do?”
0:38:07 Like I don’t understand what to do.
0:38:09 In that moment, what strikes me
0:38:12 is what’s happening for our kid is actually shame.
0:38:14 That’s what’s happening.
0:38:15 A kid feels ashamed.
0:38:16 Shame is actually when we use our behavior
0:38:18 as an indication of our identity.
0:38:19 It just all collapsed.
0:38:20 It’s like this bad thing means I’m a bad person.
0:38:23 And the hardest thing about shame when it’s present,
0:38:26 and I write about this in the book,
0:38:27 is like you have to change your goal.
0:38:29 And it’s like, it’s so frustrating.
0:38:30 ‘Cause if that’s my kid, what I want to say to him
0:38:32 is, okay, stop saying that, just stop saying that.
0:38:34 Like, okay, maybe that’s true,
0:38:36 but like some kids did well in the test
0:38:37 and like you probably could have studied.
0:38:39 You probably could have gone to the teacher before
0:38:41 and asked a few questions.
0:38:42 And like, if you keep saying that, you’ll never learn.
0:38:44 Like you just want to like lecture.
0:38:45 You want to like just get through it.
0:38:48 The thing about shame is it’s a freeze response.
0:38:51 It’s like an animal defense state.
0:38:53 Like we talk a lot about fight or flight,
0:38:54 but there’s other animal defense states too, right?
0:38:57 And one of them is freeze, right?
0:38:59 And so if someone’s frozen,
0:39:01 you can’t like get them out of that
0:39:03 until it started to thaw a little bit.
0:39:06 And so as a parent, instead of trying to go through it,
0:39:09 your only goal in the moment,
0:39:10 and this is gonna be like remarkably ungratifying,
0:39:12 I’m just warning you,
0:39:14 is to have to de-shame the moment first.
0:39:16 You have to switch your goal
0:39:18 from getting through to your kid and teaching a lesson
0:39:20 to lowering shame.
0:39:22 So your kid is actually in a place
0:39:25 where they’re unfrozen, at which point they can learn.
0:39:28 So if that’s my kid,
0:39:30 I’m gonna tell you what I would do,
0:39:31 except again, like, I don’t know if I’d really do this,
0:39:33 but the ideal Becky would do this.
0:39:35 My kid says this to me.
0:39:37 I’d probably say in the moment,
0:39:39 I hate when that happens.
0:39:41 Oh, that’s the worst, right?
0:39:44 ‘Cause I even think about me.
0:39:45 If I showed up for this podcast with you late, Shane,
0:39:48 I was like, you’ve no idea about traffic.
0:39:50 Oh my goodness.
0:39:51 Oh my goodness, it was so bad.
0:39:52 And my commute was awful.
0:39:53 If you’re like, that is the worst.
0:39:56 Oh, I have that happen to me once too.
0:39:58 I really do think the next thing I would say to you
0:40:01 would be like, I’m sorry, I should have left earlier.
0:40:04 Where if you’re like, I mean, Becky, look,
0:40:07 we only have a little bit of time and like,
0:40:09 maybe there’s traffic,
0:40:09 but like you really could have just,
0:40:11 I don’t know, left your apartment earlier
0:40:12 and gotten to the studio.
0:40:14 I know what I’d say back is like,
0:40:16 he doesn’t even understand traffic.
0:40:17 The traffic was so bad.
0:40:19 I would have gotten, so it’s paradoxical,
0:40:21 but it’s so effective.
0:40:23 And you can de-shame by just actually saying like,
0:40:26 oh, that’s the worst.
0:40:27 It’s usually pretty simple.
0:40:29 Or to me, like one of the most beautiful strategies,
0:40:32 it’s hard to even call it a strategy.
0:40:33 It’s just, I call it like, did I tell you about the time?
0:40:36 But it’s just like leveling with your kid
0:40:37 about a story from your own childhood.
0:40:39 That was just like that.
0:40:40 Oh, that makes me think about when I was in seventh grade.
0:40:43 And it’s not the same.
0:40:44 But like, I remember the science test.
0:40:45 I was like, what?
0:40:46 This question’s on and this question’s on.
0:40:47 You can kind of watch.
0:40:48 I’m gonna kind of like do a little trick here.
0:40:50 And part of me was like,
0:40:52 I guess I could have studied that,
0:40:53 but the teacher never told me.
0:40:54 And the teacher never even told me.
0:40:56 And so, oh, something like that happened to me too.
0:40:58 And so what you’re doing in the moment
0:41:00 is you’re actually just reconnecting with your kid.
0:41:02 You’re actually prioritizing connection.
0:41:03 Connect first is like the principle
0:41:05 we all want to try to do as often with our kids,
0:41:08 not because we’re soft,
0:41:09 but actually because it’s effective
0:41:11 if you wanna get anything done, right?
0:41:12 So I’m just connecting.
0:41:13 I’m de-shaming, I’m connecting.
0:41:15 And once I’ve formed that connection with my kid
0:41:18 and they’ve kind of unfrozen a little bit,
0:41:20 I can then enter into like a different conversation,
0:41:23 but it just has to happen later than we want it to.
0:41:26 – One of the things I wanted to come back to
0:41:29 outside of the world of teens
0:41:30 and maybe inside the adult world here is,
0:41:32 you said earlier,
0:41:34 how we think about someone affects
0:41:36 how we communicate with them.
0:41:38 I wanna relate that to how we think about ourselves
0:41:41 and that inner voice we have
0:41:43 and how the stories we tell ourselves.
0:41:46 And what are the common ways
0:41:48 that we sort of self-sabotage
0:41:52 or get in our own way with these stories
0:41:54 that we’re telling ourselves
0:41:56 and we’re not being kind to ourselves
0:41:57 and we’re not being gentle.
0:41:58 And that has all of these other sort of implications.
0:42:02 Like how can I treat you nicely
0:42:04 if I don’t even treat myself nicely?
0:42:06 – Yes, I mean, there’s so many examples of that, right?
0:42:10 And I think most of us, we can get into the causes,
0:42:14 but most of us have learned to wire struggles
0:42:19 next to blame.
0:42:21 They’re like very, very close in our circuitry.
0:42:23 And I say blame ’cause it’s often a combination
0:42:26 of other blame and self-blame, right?
0:42:29 I think blame is often a two-way street.
0:42:30 Like some of us maybe, you know,
0:42:32 specialize more in self-blame.
0:42:33 Some of us in other blame,
0:42:34 but usually it’s a seesaw, like it’s, you know.
0:42:36 And so when something’s hard
0:42:38 or something doesn’t go our way, right?
0:42:41 Maybe I yelled at my kid, right?
0:42:43 And then all of a sudden I’m like, I’m a monster.
0:42:45 I’m the worst parent.
0:42:46 I messed up my kid forever.
0:42:47 It’s just like huge spiral.
0:42:49 Or I did a presentation at work
0:42:51 and my boss said something like,
0:42:53 I don’t know if it was critical,
0:42:54 but it was kind of ambiguous.
0:42:55 And I leave and I’m like, my boss thinks I’m so stupid.
0:42:57 And like, oh my goodness, I’m gonna get fired.
0:42:59 And we just, like you said,
0:43:00 we start telling ourselves stories.
0:43:03 And then those stories start to influence, of course,
0:43:08 they influence how we feel.
0:43:09 They influence then the next action we take
0:43:11 that usually is just kind of further reifying that story
0:43:14 or really that interpretation.
0:43:15 And we can really get off to the races, right?
0:43:18 Another image I wanna share, right?
0:43:21 ‘Cause I think this is really one of my favorites
0:43:23 and it really illustrates what we’re talking about.
0:43:25 It’s like, if you picture yourself as the driver of a car,
0:43:27 we all have multiple passengers in our car, right?
0:43:30 So like some of us have imposter syndrome
0:43:32 as like a very, very noisy passenger.
0:43:34 Some of us have, it’s all my fault.
0:43:36 Some of us have, the world is gonna end
0:43:38 and everything is gonna go badly, right?
0:43:40 We get into problems, not when those things
0:43:42 are our passengers, we get into problems
0:43:43 and those things take over the driver’s seat.
0:43:46 And actually, a lot of us, when we’re aware of those voices,
0:43:50 we try to get them out of our car, like we do.
0:43:52 We’re like, I shouldn’t feel that way,
0:43:53 or I know my boss doesn’t actually think I’m stupid.
0:43:56 Why am I thinking that?
0:43:57 We either fight the voice or it kind of takes over us.
0:44:02 Like that’s usually what happens.
0:44:04 When I actually think mental health
0:44:08 is not about getting those voices out of our car.
0:44:11 They’re there, they’re not going anywhere.
0:44:12 But actually just like talking to them
0:44:14 when they’re in the passenger seat
0:44:16 to ensure that they don’t take over the driver’s seat, right?
0:44:19 So for example, not first of yelling at my kids
0:44:22 and maybe like, oh, there’s the I messed up my kid forever.
0:44:25 Again, voice, hey, it’s unfortunate,
0:44:28 but you do tend to come up
0:44:29 whenever I make a little mistake with my kid.
0:44:31 And like, okay, I’m just gonna come back to today,
0:44:33 like it is 2024 and I don’t really know
0:44:37 what the next 80 years kind of hold,
0:44:39 but I’m pretty sure what I did today
0:44:41 did not mess up my kids forever.
0:44:43 And I know you’ll say that again to me,
0:44:44 but I’m just gonna kind of keep you in the back seat, right?
0:44:47 Or, okay, I don’t even feel great about my presentation
0:44:51 and my boss did do this,
0:44:52 but there’s that my boss hates me voice.
0:44:54 And it’s true, whenever I even doubt myself a little bit,
0:44:58 I do tend to also think that my boss is about to fire me, right?
0:45:02 And all of a sudden now I’m actually in a relationship
0:45:05 with these stories, right?
0:45:07 Or with these parts, I would call them these parts.
0:45:10 And as soon as you’re in a relationship with a part of you,
0:45:12 inherently that part of you can’t take over you
0:45:14 because you and the driver seat are like talking to it.
0:45:19 And to me, that’s what I actually teach adults
0:45:21 and parents like all the time.
0:45:22 It’s honestly like some of my favorite interventions
0:45:24 to teach kids how to do that when they’re young.
0:45:25 I think it’s like one of the most important skills
0:45:27 I could take into adulthood with them
0:45:29 because I think those are some of like
0:45:30 the ultimate coping skills in life.
0:45:33 – One of the other things we talked about earlier
0:45:35 and I’m sort of like going down a couple of rabbit holes
0:45:38 ’cause we sort of covered a lot of ground really quickly
0:45:41 was regulating emotions.
0:45:44 And not only do we as adults and parents
0:45:47 have to teach our kids or help them
0:45:49 better regulate their own emotions,
0:45:52 we have to often learn how to regulate our own emotions.
0:45:55 How do we do that?
0:45:57 – I get this question from parents often, right?
0:45:59 Because the way kids learn how to regulate emotions
0:46:04 is through their relationship with their parents, right?
0:46:08 It’s not something you could get taught in a textbook.
0:46:11 And it’s not to say when we get older,
0:46:13 if we didn’t have a lot of those early experiences
0:46:14 that helped us learn how to regulate our emotions,
0:46:16 which most adults, I know a lot of them didn’t,
0:46:18 doesn’t mean we can’t get there.
0:46:20 But our kids, right, they kind of borrow our regulation
0:46:25 in a moment and they kind of absorb it.
0:46:27 And like I was saying before, they kind of over time learn,
0:46:30 oh, my emotion inside me that feels so scary to me
0:46:33 is less scary to someone else.
0:46:34 And they kind of absorb that hope
0:46:36 and they absorb that kind of tolerance.
0:46:38 And that really forms the foundation
0:46:40 for so many of their coping skills.
0:46:42 So parents will say to me, okay, I actually get that.
0:46:44 How can I do that for my kid if I can’t,
0:46:48 if I really do struggle to regulate my own emotions?
0:46:51 It seems like I’m teaching my kid and myself
0:46:53 at the same time.
0:46:55 And we are, and like that is just kind of the hand,
0:46:57 a lot of us were dealt and it’s not an impossible hand.
0:46:59 It’s not an easy hand, but it’s definitely a winnable hand.
0:47:02 Like I know that and I’ve seen it now with millions of adults
0:47:04 who are, you know, winning a lot of their hands.
0:47:07 And so I think there’s a couple like concrete ways
0:47:11 as adults that we can, you know,
0:47:13 start to learn how to better regulate our emotions, right?
0:47:17 Number one to me is just the word curiosity.
0:47:19 Like being curious about yourself
0:47:22 is a foundation to regulating your emotions.
0:47:27 Because it’s the difference between saying,
0:47:29 my kids whining, like who can stay calm
0:47:32 when they whine all day?
0:47:33 Like, are you saying people like whining?
0:47:35 I have to get to a place where I like whining.
0:47:37 No, nobody likes whining, literally nobody likes whining,
0:47:39 but there’s a big difference between not liking whining
0:47:43 and I don’t know, reacting and being in a state of reactivity
0:47:46 with screaming at our kids,
0:47:48 versus not liking whining and being able to regulate
0:47:50 our emotions and respond to our kid
0:47:52 from a place of groundedness and sturdiness, right?
0:47:54 Still, nobody likes it, but it’s very different.
0:47:57 And curiosity to me gets us from point one to point two,
0:48:00 because instead of saying like, what’s wrong with my kid
0:48:02 and why are they acting the way they’re acting?
0:48:04 We might say, what’s going on inside of me?
0:48:07 What’s going on for me?
0:48:09 What is happening inside me?
0:48:12 That is kind of a component of this reaction, right?
0:48:14 The idea that my kid’s whining
0:48:16 is an inherently making me scream at them.
0:48:19 It’s a trigger, but there’s a story inside me.
0:48:22 There’s something that happens inside my body
0:48:24 that frankly predated my kid’s existence.
0:48:27 So if I can get curious about that, right?
0:48:31 Then I can actually make a lot of progress.
0:48:33 And to me, I think it’s so easy to hear that
0:48:36 and someone say, oh, so it’s my fault?
0:48:37 No, like, I don’t know where,
0:48:39 I feel like we’re obsessed with the word fault.
0:48:42 Like it’s not your kid’s fault, it’s not your fault.
0:48:44 Like why does that have to be anyone’s fault?
0:48:46 Like I don’t know why it’s like, it’s just,
0:48:47 this is happening, either we can be curious and like learn
0:48:50 and through that learning, probably live in a way
0:48:54 that’s more in line with our values,
0:48:55 feel more in control of ourselves.
0:48:57 Like your kid’s gonna benefit,
0:48:59 but I promise you as the adult are gonna benefit
0:49:01 in areas like way more, like everybody wins, right?
0:49:03 And so I always say to parents,
0:49:04 this isn’t a system of like saying this is your fault.
0:49:07 It’s a system of saying like,
0:49:09 this is actually a place for your empowerment
0:49:10 and to like finally learn skills
0:49:12 and skills always help us feel, you know, more powerful.
0:49:14 So one of my favorite emotion regulation skills
0:49:18 to teach adults is something I call AVP, okay?
0:49:21 And it’s like the simplest thing
0:49:23 and has the most profound impact on people, okay?
0:49:26 So AVP stands for acknowledge, validate, permit.
0:49:30 So I’ll teach each part.
0:49:32 Step one to regulating emotions is acknowledging them.
0:49:36 And actually this is a really good point of the conversation
0:49:39 relative to what we just said about this image in the car.
0:49:41 So let’s say, you know, my kid is whining.
0:49:45 Step one, acknowledge like,
0:49:47 well, I’m feeling really annoyed, right?
0:49:49 Like in a way what I’m doing is like,
0:49:50 I’m the driver of my car and annoyance in the backseat
0:49:53 is like starting to kind of make its way to the driver seat.
0:49:56 And I’m like, hey there, hey.
0:49:58 And that’s literally what I’m doing.
0:49:59 I actually use the word high a lot
0:50:00 because it always makes me laugh.
0:50:02 And to me, if I could add levity to like that process,
0:50:05 it gets easier.
0:50:05 So I’m like, hi, annoyance or high anxiety, right?
0:50:08 Or something like that.
0:50:09 So for step one is just acknowledge.
0:50:11 You can acknowledge by using a quote feeling word
0:50:13 like high annoyance or high sadness.
0:50:15 A lot of people don’t like really know
0:50:17 the name of their feelings and that’s totally fine.
0:50:19 And you can also do it in a more general way.
0:50:21 Like I’m feeling uncomfortable right now.
0:50:24 Or I’m feeling about to explode right now.
0:50:25 Or I’m feeling tight right now.
0:50:27 Any acknowledgement.
0:50:28 Two is validate.
0:50:30 And to me, the best way that our body,
0:50:33 I think likes to be validated.
0:50:35 I don’t know why is the term makes sense.
0:50:37 I think there’s something where feelings feel like
0:50:39 accepted by logic in our body when we use that term.
0:50:42 I don’t know.
0:50:42 I haven’t asked, but I think that’s what’s happening.
0:50:44 So I’d be saying, I’m really, really annoyed right now.
0:50:48 Or when my kid was whining and I’d say to myself,
0:50:51 well, that makes sense.
0:50:52 Like whining is pretty annoying.
0:50:54 It makes sense that I feel that way.
0:50:56 That is a hugely helpful phrase
0:51:00 in regulating our emotions.
0:51:01 Because the reasons our emotions get unregulated, right?
0:51:08 Is that they are exploding out of our body in our behaviors.
0:51:12 They literally, if you think about these moments of reactivity
0:51:14 when I yell or the emotion is like coming out of my body
0:51:19 and like through my mouth, right?
0:51:20 It’s kind of like a volcano, right?
0:51:23 The opposite of that isn’t suppressing emotions
0:51:26 because you just can’t beat them.
0:51:27 So it’s always, you know, an unwinnable endeavor.
0:51:31 But we’re kind of saying when you regulate an emotion,
0:51:33 like it’s okay to live inside your body.
0:51:34 Like it can just live there.
0:51:35 It doesn’t have to explode out of you.
0:51:36 It can live inside there.
0:51:37 Like it has a place, it has a home.
0:51:39 So if you think about those two steps already,
0:51:40 like first I’m saying hi to it.
0:51:42 Like if you’re saying hi to someone at a party,
0:51:44 like maybe you don’t love them
0:51:45 but you’re probably like okay with them being there
0:51:47 because you said hi.
0:51:48 And then you’re telling,
0:51:49 you’re feeling like it kind of makes sense that you’re here.
0:51:51 And then P is permit,
0:51:52 which actually just involves saying to yourself,
0:51:55 I give myself full permission to be feeling this way, right?
0:51:58 So another example of going through an AVP
0:52:01 would be like I’m feeling really anxious right now
0:52:03 and really, really worked up.
0:52:05 And you know, well, that makes sense.
0:52:06 Like I am managing my kid’s soccer schedules
0:52:08 and you know, I’m thinking about what they need for dinner
0:52:11 and I didn’t respond to that email.
0:52:12 And I think tomorrow’s gonna be a snow day
0:52:14 and then my kid’s gonna have canceled school.
0:52:16 And P permit, right?
0:52:18 I give myself permission to be feeling this way.
0:52:20 And I think a kicker at the end is just adding the phrase
0:52:24 and I can cope with it.
0:52:26 And I can cope with it.
0:52:29 I, you know, interesting enough,
0:52:30 you’re catching me on like last night,
0:52:32 I was walking in Times Square and as I do,
0:52:34 I film videos myself for Instagram
0:52:36 when I’m like on the way to the subway.
0:52:38 So I was like filming myself and this guy saw me.
0:52:41 He’s this 28 year old guy, stop me.
0:52:43 He goes, I’m a 28 year old man, I’m unmarried
0:52:46 and I don’t have kids.
0:52:48 And he goes, and I like, I’m so excited to see you.
0:52:51 He’s like, you’re like a celebrity to me.
0:52:53 And he goes, literally, he goes, AVP has changed my life.
0:52:58 That’s what he said.
0:52:58 He goes, AVP has changed my life.
0:53:00 I’m reparenting myself.
0:53:02 I know I never learned what some people learned
0:53:04 in their childhood and I need to kind of reparent myself
0:53:07 through those skills and AVP has like, you know,
0:53:11 changed my life.
0:53:12 And so there’s a couple of ways to use it.
0:53:14 If regulating your emotions is new for you,
0:53:17 you can’t expect yourself to start to regulate your emotions
0:53:22 when you’re in your most heightened emotions.
0:53:25 That would be like someone who has never taken a foul shot,
0:53:29 taking a foul shot, game seven of the NBA finals
0:53:32 when time has run out and the game has tied.
0:53:33 Like that person is not making it.
0:53:35 You take foul shots in practice, low stakes.
0:53:39 And so the way I tell people to practice AVP
0:53:42 is literally going to their phone right now,
0:53:44 setting a random time that they tend to be alone, right?
0:53:47 Not in the midst of things
0:53:48 and just literally making a daily reminder that says AVP.
0:53:51 And when it goes off, you just stop
0:53:53 and you say to yourself, what am I feeling right now?
0:53:56 And it can be like, I’m not feeling much.
0:53:58 I don’t know.
0:54:00 Well, that makes sense because this is a new thing
0:54:02 for me to check in with my emotions.
0:54:04 So it makes sense that I’m not sure.
0:54:06 Permission, I’m giving myself full permission
0:54:08 to not know how I’m feeling.
0:54:09 Like there’s no way to get it wrong.
0:54:10 That’s what I’m saying.
0:54:11 And I promise you after a week or two,
0:54:15 not only will you start to recognize more things,
0:54:20 but already that skill, that coping skill
0:54:23 will start to appear not in 10 out of 10 emotional situations.
0:54:26 It will not, it’s not magic,
0:54:28 but like in maybe two, three out of 10s.
0:54:31 And I think that’s like one concrete thing,
0:54:33 like all adults can do to start making progress.
0:54:36 – Was earlier AVP in action when we said,
0:54:40 I’m glad you’re telling me about this.
0:54:42 I believe you, tell me more.
0:54:45 That sounds like AVP. – Oh my goodness.
0:54:47 Oh my goodness.
0:54:48 I’ve never, Shane, I’ve never thought about that.
0:54:51 But I’m so glad I’m telling you,
0:54:53 I’m telling me about this is basically like acknowledging
0:54:56 and like, yeah, like I believe you
0:54:58 is like another ultimate form of validation.
0:55:00 And actually, you know, it’s so interesting.
0:55:02 This is crazy.
0:55:03 My brain is firing in a million directions.
0:55:04 Someone told me with AVP, they’re like,
0:55:06 I don’t like to say it makes sense.
0:55:07 I don’t want to cry.
0:55:08 This one said, I just say to myself, I believe myself.
0:55:13 I really do feel this way.
0:55:14 So yeah.
0:55:14 And then permission, like tell me more is permissions.
0:55:18 Permission to feel, permission to keep going.
0:55:19 Yes, I guess that is very profound.
0:55:21 It will leave me with a lot to think about.
0:55:23 I’ve never made that connection.
0:55:24 Thank you.
0:55:25 When we have an emotional outburst,
0:55:27 we tend to react without reasoning.
0:55:30 We say things that, you know, sometimes we can’t unsay.
0:55:33 We do things that, you know,
0:55:35 the best version of ourself would not have us be doing.
0:55:39 And we all do this.
0:55:40 And this is natural and normal.
0:55:42 And I think it’s part of being human.
0:55:44 And how do we repair with our kids or our partner
0:55:49 after this happens?
0:55:52 Okay, we’ve had this outburst or, you know,
0:55:55 we have this fight or this argument.
0:55:57 We’re not feeling good about it,
0:55:58 but we really don’t know what to do now.
0:56:01 How do we get back to a good place?
0:56:04 I’m so glad you’re asking this question
0:56:05 because I always like kick myself if I’m in a conversation
0:56:10 and don’t get to talk about this
0:56:12 because it’s the ultimate, right?
0:56:14 Like to me, repair is literally
0:56:17 the number one relationship strategy.
0:56:19 Everyone should get good at whether you’re in a partnership,
0:56:22 your relationships at work
0:56:23 and definitely your relationship with your kid.
0:56:24 And I wanna go through this in a way.
0:56:26 It’s literally gonna come full circle to confidence,
0:56:28 to behavior versus identity as everything.
0:56:31 ‘Cause I really think of myself
0:56:32 as like a first principles thinker.
0:56:33 It always comes back to the same few things.
0:56:36 So every single person, definitely me included,
0:56:41 messes up, like I yell at my kids.
0:56:43 And it’s not something I’m just saying, like,
0:56:45 oh, that’s nice.
0:56:45 She’s saying this, like, of course I yell at my kid.
0:56:47 Like I’d be offended that you didn’t think
0:56:48 I yelled at my kid.
0:56:49 Like my kids, first of all, do not have Dr. Becky
0:56:52 as a parent and I would not wish Dr. Becky on any child.
0:56:56 I really wouldn’t as a parent.
0:56:57 Like it’s just not, it’s not human.
0:57:00 It’s not the way you can learn
0:57:01 about how relationships work, right?
0:57:03 If our relationship with our kids becomes the model,
0:57:06 they kind of take into adulthood
0:57:08 and how they think about relationships.
0:57:11 Shane, I don’t think you and I want our kids
0:57:12 going to look for a partner who’s like,
0:57:13 who is perfectly attuned to my emotions all the time?
0:57:16 Who always gets it right?
0:57:17 They will be very disappointed.
0:57:19 Nobody is like that.
0:57:20 So everybody messes up.
0:57:22 And when I say repairs, the number one relationship strategy,
0:57:26 it’s because there’s very few things
0:57:28 that can have as much positive impact on repair, okay?
0:57:31 And what I always like to think about there is, okay,
0:57:34 so if repair is one of the most powerful
0:57:38 relationship strategies and I’m supposed to get good
0:57:40 at repair, well, you can’t repair.
0:57:43 If you don’t mess up, you literally can.
0:57:46 And so really, okay, and I’ll go through how to repair.
0:57:49 After I yell at my kid, I really do say this to myself
0:57:52 because I used to be pretty bad at repairing
0:57:54 until I like understood really the power of it.
0:57:56 I’m like, oh, I messed up.
0:57:57 And especially with this like Dr. Becky stuff.
0:57:59 I’m like, what would people think if like, right?
0:58:01 Like I was yelling at my kids and I was like, wait,
0:58:03 I’m getting good at repair.
0:58:04 That’s like my goal.
0:58:05 So I messed up.
0:58:07 Step one, check, like crushed it, crushed it.
0:58:11 I messed up.
0:58:12 I already did step one.
0:58:13 Everyone says the first step is the hardest step.
0:58:14 Okay. Well, first step is messing up.
0:58:16 We did that.
0:58:17 Second step is repair.
0:58:18 Like you’re 50% of the way there.
0:58:20 So I want to take this whole idea and like turn on its head.
0:58:23 Repair is so important.
0:58:24 So I want to explain why repair is so important,
0:58:29 especially for kids and then get into the concrete way to do it.
0:58:33 So I just yelled at my kid and now usually in my house,
0:58:37 after I yell at my kid, like we’re separated.
0:58:39 Like after I really scream, like my kid’s in his room,
0:58:41 let’s say my son’s in his room.
0:58:43 And let’s say it’s about screen time.
0:58:44 I’m like, I told you to get off, you know, the video game
0:58:47 and like, you never listen and you, you know,
0:58:49 take advantage of me and like you said,
0:58:51 and I don’t know if I can trust you.
0:58:53 And, you know, when he’s like, you don’t understand me.
0:58:55 And I was just with my friends and you embarrass me.
0:58:57 And I’m like, you’ve seen nothing yet.
0:58:59 Okay. And then he’s in his room.
0:59:03 He’s like slammed his door and like, I’m in the kitchen.
0:59:06 Right. So what happens next?
0:59:10 Right. That moment already happened.
0:59:11 Do I wish it didn’t happen?
0:59:13 Yeah, I do.
0:59:14 Right. But, but it already happened.
0:59:16 So what goes on for a kid after a moment
0:59:20 that feels really bad with a parent before repair has happened?
0:59:25 So my kid is now, my son is now in his room.
0:59:28 He’s overwhelmed and from like a somatic physical perspective.
0:59:31 Right. He’s like agitated.
0:59:32 He’s obviously on edge.
0:59:34 I am too. And he’s even younger.
0:59:35 He’s helpless.
0:59:37 And right. Our kids are oriented by attachment with us.
0:59:39 Attachments, the primary evolutionary mechanism for kids.
0:59:42 They need us. They literally need us to survive.
0:59:45 And so they’re always kind of paying attention
0:59:47 to the status of their relationship with us, right?
0:59:49 And figuring out how to be close to us again,
0:59:53 figuring out how to get your body calm.
0:59:55 So you can kind of proceed with something they have to do.
0:59:57 So my kids alone, right?
0:59:59 Having just gotten yelled at and they have to figure out
1:00:02 how to feel safe again, like in their body.
1:00:04 And if I don’t go help them do it,
1:00:07 kids really only have two coping mechanisms
1:00:09 at their disposal on their own.
1:00:12 And those are self doubt and self blame.
1:00:14 So my kid could be in his room
1:00:16 and kind of engage in self doubt.
1:00:18 Did that really happen?
1:00:19 I mean, I don’t know, like if that happened,
1:00:21 someone probably come talk to me.
1:00:23 I don’t know.
1:00:24 Maybe I’m making a big deal out of things.
1:00:25 Maybe I’m overreacting.
1:00:28 Maybe my friends wouldn’t have thought
1:00:29 this was such a big deal and I guess I’m fine.
1:00:31 Like, yeah, yeah, I guess I’m fine.
1:00:33 Like just forget it.
1:00:34 And then also my mom never mentioned it again.
1:00:36 So maybe that didn’t even happen.
1:00:37 We don’t want to wire our self doubt into our kids
1:00:41 because it comes up in really in our opportune ways, right?
1:00:44 When my daughter, let’s say, or my son is older
1:00:48 and they have something, I don’t know,
1:00:50 uncomfortable happen with the boss
1:00:51 or with someone they meet in college.
1:00:53 Like I really don’t think any of us want our kids self talk
1:00:56 to be like, did that really happen?
1:00:58 Am I overreacting?
1:01:00 Would my friends have thought that was a big deal?
1:01:02 That’s like so terrifying, right?
1:01:04 And that’s not what we want.
1:01:06 So that’s self doubt.
1:01:08 And the other things kids do is self blame.
1:01:10 They just say it’s my fault.
1:01:11 They’re like, I did this.
1:01:12 If I was like a better kid, I wouldn’t have done this
1:01:15 and I ruin everything.
1:01:16 They either say, you’re both, I’m too much.
1:01:18 I’m not enough, right?
1:01:19 And they kind of say this to themselves to calm down.
1:01:22 And one of the reasons kids engage in self blame
1:01:24 that I find really compelling
1:01:26 to like share this idea more widely.
1:01:27 It’s not mine.
1:01:28 It’s by Ronald Fairburn, very, you know,
1:01:31 early psychiatrist.
1:01:34 What he says that I think is compelling is just,
1:01:36 for kids, it’s better to be a sinner
1:01:39 in a world ruled by God
1:01:41 than to live in a world ruled by the devil.
1:01:44 Meaning, kids have to feel safe in the world.
1:01:48 And they have to believe that their parents are like good
1:01:51 and like will keep them safe.
1:01:52 And so when things happen with their parents
1:01:53 that feel really bad,
1:01:55 it’s actually adaptive for a kid to internalize fault
1:01:57 and blame because at least then they can hold on
1:02:00 to the idea that their parents
1:02:01 and kind of their for the world around them
1:02:03 is safe and good.
1:02:04 And if we circle back to like,
1:02:05 why do we all blame ourselves after we struggle?
1:02:08 Well, if over and over after hard times in your body,
1:02:11 hard time, thing that didn’t feel good self blame,
1:02:13 hard time thing that didn’t feel good self blame,
1:02:15 will you become an adult
1:02:16 when you have a hard time and things that don’t feel good?
1:02:18 Guess what happens next in your circuit, self blame, right?
1:02:21 Adaptive when you’re young,
1:02:22 very, very much holds us back when we’re adults.
1:02:27 And so whenever I think about those two things
1:02:30 that my kid would have to do if I don’t repair,
1:02:32 it becomes extra compelling to repair
1:02:34 because I really think, oh my goodness,
1:02:36 my kid and I had this event.
1:02:39 But here’s what people misunderstand.
1:02:42 Events don’t mess up kids.
1:02:44 Events aren’t even inherently traumatizing.
1:02:47 What kind of like their mess up ’cause it sounds so final,
1:02:50 but what really impacts kids is not an event.
1:02:54 It’s the story they tell themselves about the event.
1:02:57 That’s what gets encoded in their body.
1:02:59 That’s actually what memory is, right?
1:03:01 It’s events and every time you’ve remembered that event.
1:03:04 – Is it the same for relationships too?
1:03:06 In terms of like what gets remembered,
1:03:10 it’s the story we tell ourselves about that moment?
1:03:13 – Well, I think there’s a lot of science on this now
1:03:15 that like memory is in events.
1:03:17 It’s events and every other time you’ve remembered the event.
1:03:20 To me, that’s the best way to think about it
1:03:21 because it actually speaks to why therapy
1:03:23 is powerful for people, right?
1:03:24 Like you don’t change the events of your childhood,
1:03:27 but by remembering them in a different way
1:03:29 in the context of a safer relationship,
1:03:31 actually your memory changes.
1:03:32 Your memory’s literally change.
1:03:35 And so if you go back to like you’ve yelled at your kid,
1:03:37 you don’t feel good.
1:03:38 Your kid’s alone in their room.
1:03:40 You don’t want them to engage in self-blame,
1:03:41 self-doubt, right?
1:03:42 You don’t want that.
1:03:44 Not only that, to me like I often really,
1:03:46 I feel like I’m a magician when I go prepare with my kid.
1:03:49 I’m like, oh my goodness, what happens next
1:03:53 after the yell is going to have the most impact
1:03:58 on what you end up encoding about the event.
1:04:02 Like if I can go in and do a true repair,
1:04:06 you’re gonna, you’re not gonna be messed up by that.
1:04:09 You’re gonna learn that wasn’t your fault.
1:04:11 You’re actually gonna watch an adult take responsibility
1:04:13 for something that didn’t feel good to them.
1:04:16 You’re gonna learn that after hard moments
1:04:18 can be new understanding
1:04:20 and people kind of working on themselves.
1:04:22 Like what’s a better lesson to my kid than that?
1:04:26 That’s why I say it was an amazing opportunity.
1:04:29 And so to actually engage in repair, there’s two steps.
1:04:34 And I think the first step is one that’s not talked about
1:04:37 a lot and it’s why so many of us
1:04:38 have a hard time repairing or apologizing.
1:04:41 And the first step, and this is gonna be full circle,
1:04:43 is really repairing with ourselves.
1:04:45 If someone says like, I have a really hard time apologizing
1:04:47 or my husband, my wife, my mom really can’t apologize.
1:04:52 What they probably mean is they actually,
1:04:55 and chance is very similar to why someone
1:04:56 wouldn’t take responsibility for getting a bad grade.
1:05:00 They’ve equated the thing they did
1:05:02 with the type of person they are.
1:05:03 And so as long as me yelling at my son
1:05:07 means I’m a monster and a bad mom,
1:05:10 there’s no humanly possible way I could repair.
1:05:13 My body wouldn’t even let me.
1:05:15 I can’t face the idea of being an awful person.
1:05:20 In fact, if I stay in that place
1:05:22 when I repair with my kid, probably not repairing.
1:05:24 I’m probably going to ask my kid to do me a service.
1:05:26 You forgive me, right?
1:05:27 You forgive me, right?
1:05:28 You still love me, right?
1:05:29 You love me.
1:05:30 I’m actually like asking my kid
1:05:31 to like give me back my goodness.
1:05:34 That’s like so not their job.
1:05:36 Repairing with ourselves really means,
1:05:39 and I really do this.
1:05:40 Some people are like,
1:05:41 what does that really mean practically?
1:05:42 I’m like, no, literally.
1:05:43 Like I go into a bathroom, I sit on a closed toilet,
1:05:46 I put my feet on the ground, I put a hand on my heart,
1:05:49 and I’ll say to myself like,
1:05:51 I’m not proud of yelling at my kid,
1:05:55 and that yelling doesn’t define me.
1:05:57 And I think this exercise is powerful
1:06:00 for a million reasons,
1:06:01 but like in general, I put up my two hands
1:06:03 and I look at one and I’m like,
1:06:05 this is who I am.
1:06:06 This is my identity.
1:06:08 And I look at the other hand,
1:06:08 I say, this is what I did.
1:06:10 This is my behavior.
1:06:11 I’m a good person who yelled at my kid.
1:06:15 I’m a good parent who was having a hard time.
1:06:19 And I’ll notice, especially after like the bad moments,
1:06:21 those hands start to come closer together.
1:06:23 And I’m like, no, I’m not like,
1:06:24 this is the worst.
1:06:25 And I can’t repair with my son from that place.
1:06:28 I won’t.
1:06:29 But if I like stay in that place,
1:06:30 I’m like, no, like nobody’s perfect.
1:06:32 I didn’t mess up my kid forever.
1:06:34 And there is something to me to saying like,
1:06:36 you know, my latest behavior doesn’t define me.
1:06:39 I’m a good parent, Becky.
1:06:40 I’m still a good parent.
1:06:41 And I’ll look at one hand
1:06:42 and I’ll look at the other hand
1:06:43 who is having a hard time.
1:06:44 I feel something like release a little bit in my body.
1:06:47 And then really what’s happened
1:06:48 is I’ve re-accessed really my own good inside-ness
1:06:52 separate from this behavior.
1:06:54 And if anyone thinks it’s important
1:06:56 aren’t you letting yourself off the hook?
1:06:57 The only way to let yourself off the hook
1:07:00 is to conflate your behavior with your identity.
1:07:03 Because as long as you’re in a place of self-blame,
1:07:05 it’s actually a very like egotistical place
1:07:07 and you’re kind of like descending into this abyss.
1:07:09 You can’t reflect.
1:07:10 You can’t change.
1:07:11 You can’t wonder, what coping skills do I need?
1:07:13 What do I need to do differently the next time?
1:07:15 It doesn’t make an excuse,
1:07:16 but what was going on in my day that left me so fried
1:07:19 and overwhelmed and how could I change that next time?
1:07:21 The only way you can reflect and learn
1:07:23 is by repairing with yourself.
1:07:25 – Yeah, it’s sort of basically you’re saying,
1:07:27 I’m not gonna be defined by this behavior.
1:07:30 I’m not gonna let that define who I am
1:07:33 even though they can both be true, right?
1:07:35 I did this thing.
1:07:36 I don’t wanna be the person who does that type of thing.
1:07:39 And yet I did it.
1:07:40 And yet it doesn’t have to define who I am or my future.
1:07:44 – That’s exactly right.
1:07:46 And then you’ve kind of like, I do think about that.
1:07:49 You’ve like re-accessed this thing inside of you.
1:07:50 Like I’m kind of, I’m still like,
1:07:52 I haven’t lost that good inside in this.
1:07:54 Now I don’t need my kid to find it for me.
1:07:56 Now I don’t need them to validate it.
1:07:58 That’s, you know, not the point of a repair.
1:08:00 That is the opposite.
1:08:01 And now I can actually go and do a true repair with my kid.
1:08:04 And to me, a repair, you know,
1:08:06 I don’t think there’s an exact formula,
1:08:08 but like to some degree, you name what happened.
1:08:10 You take responsibility
1:08:13 and you state what you would do differently the next time.
1:08:15 And I think, I think especially that,
1:08:17 I think all those components are pretty important.
1:08:18 So I might say, hey, I’m thinking about yelling at you
1:08:23 when you were, you know, playing video games earlier.
1:08:26 The reason I want to name it specifically, again,
1:08:29 I always think that kids had the tendency to self-doubt
1:08:31 just to again, make themselves feel better.
1:08:33 And I always want my kids to go into adulthood
1:08:35 being like the things I see
1:08:36 and the things I noticed really are true.
1:08:38 And so I think just like validating that
1:08:40 when I yelled at you and you were playing video games
1:08:42 is a way of my son of being like,
1:08:43 okay, I didn’t make that up, like that did happen.
1:08:47 I’m really sorry.
1:08:48 And to me, this line matters and it’s controversial.
1:08:50 So I want to talk about it with you.
1:08:51 It’s never your fault when I yell, you know,
1:08:55 I’m really working on managing my own frustration,
1:08:57 even my system around how you do video games
1:08:59 because it is important you end at the time we said,
1:09:02 and there’s definitely a smoother way around that.
1:09:05 And even when you don’t, like it’s my job
1:09:07 to like, you know, approach that in a calmer way.
1:09:09 And that’s, you know,
1:09:11 and then I think a couple of things can happen.
1:09:13 It depends on your kid’s age too, you know,
1:09:15 but most of the time kids will look at you
1:09:17 and they’ll say like, whatever,
1:09:19 or they’ll say, can I have my snack now?
1:09:22 Or you’re so weird if it’s new, you know,
1:09:24 they’ll say something like that.
1:09:25 And I think it’s easier to walk out of the room
1:09:26 being like, oh my goodness,
1:09:27 like I just like did such major internal work
1:09:29 to make that happen and my kid didn’t even care.
1:09:31 They cared, do not take the bait,
1:09:33 especially if it’s new,
1:09:33 it’s a lot for them to process,
1:09:35 to be treated like someone who’s deserving of a repair.
1:09:39 And whenever any of us are kind of experienced something
1:09:43 emotional, a lot of us kind of push people away
1:09:45 to like have enough distance
1:09:47 to like try to like retake it in in our own time.
1:09:51 And so I know with 100% conviction
1:09:54 that it will make a difference to your kid,
1:09:56 even if they don’t gratify you
1:09:58 by saying something back, that’s kind in the moment.
1:10:00 – Is it different or where is it different
1:10:03 when it comes to repairing with a partner or spouse?
1:10:06 – Great question.
1:10:08 I think it’s both different and it feels totally different
1:10:10 and we all be included,
1:10:12 can get into such a state of willfulness
1:10:15 instead of willingness, with our partners.
1:10:18 You know, I think it’s the same thing.
1:10:22 It’s like you’re taking responsibility for what you did.
1:10:26 You’re owning your side of the equation.
1:10:28 You know, I think a lot of us,
1:10:29 let’s say y’all at your partner,
1:10:30 it’s easy to be like, well, if you didn’t do this thing,
1:10:32 you know, or, you know,
1:10:34 if you had said this instead,
1:10:35 I wouldn’t have reacted that way, right?
1:10:37 But at the end of the day,
1:10:39 we own our reactions and we’re responsible for,
1:10:43 you know, how we cope with things.
1:10:45 – Maybe it’s embarrassing,
1:10:46 but this is something I really struggle with sometimes
1:10:51 in particular moments when somebody
1:10:54 tells me how they’re feeling
1:10:56 and the implication is that I did something
1:10:59 that’s caused them to feel that way.
1:11:02 I catch myself saying, I’m sorry you’re feeling that way.
1:11:07 That doesn’t seem like a good way to respond or lead to.
1:11:14 – Did your partner want me to help you with this?
1:11:18 – Yeah, well, it’s sort of like,
1:11:20 because it’s like I’m insulating myself
1:11:22 from any accountability,
1:11:24 but in some cases, I might not agree with it, right?
1:11:27 So this is where my mind goes where it’s like,
1:11:28 well, I don’t agree that you should feel that way, perhaps,
1:11:32 or I don’t agree that I did anything that caused that.
1:11:35 How do I acknowledge and validate and repair?
1:11:39 And yeah, what’s a better way to respond in all of it?
1:11:43 – No, so let’s just like go further into that.
1:11:46 So, ’cause you said like, I don’t,
1:11:47 what you said I thought was compelling, like,
1:11:48 I don’t agree.
1:11:49 Is that the word you used?
1:11:50 – Yeah. – I don’t agree.
1:11:52 So could you, is there a situation
1:11:54 that we could delve into with a little more detail?
1:11:57 – Well, if somebody’s like, you did this thing
1:11:59 and it made me angry.
1:12:00 You know, in my mind, I can be like,
1:12:03 I don’t agree that you should be angry
1:12:05 or I don’t agree that you should be feeling that way.
1:12:08 It’s sort of like what I catch myself thinking.
1:12:11 Yeah, and when I catch myself thinking that,
1:12:14 the words that sometimes come out of my mouth
1:12:17 is I’m sorry you’re feeling that way,
1:12:21 which means I get to walk away without acknowledging
1:12:27 that I have any contribution to this.
1:12:29 And I’m not really, I’m sort of validating your feelings,
1:12:33 but not quite validating your feelings at the same time.
1:12:37 And it’s that dance between like, in some cases,
1:12:40 like I just don’t think I did anything
1:12:42 that would warrant that.
1:12:44 And so like, I don’t want to apologize for something
1:12:46 when I didn’t really do anything.
1:12:49 – Yeah. – What do I do in the,
1:12:50 am I crazy in this? – No, you’re 0% crazy.
1:12:53 And so much of this resonates with me too.
1:12:55 And I can get like this too.
1:12:56 So there’s a couple of things that you said
1:12:58 that I think we need to like,
1:13:00 not like break down, but like poke around,
1:13:02 that’s what I would say.
1:13:03 So, first of all, most of us when we’re married,
1:13:05 like right, or partnered, whatever we are,
1:13:07 like the way we react to our spouse
1:13:09 when they bring us up something they’re feeling,
1:13:12 is we do, we get very like kind of egocentric.
1:13:15 I do this too, where it’s like, well,
1:13:16 I wouldn’t feel that way.
1:13:18 Like, right?
1:13:19 And I think most fights, partners get in,
1:13:22 are kind of, they’re both saying to the other person,
1:13:24 why can’t you be more like me?
1:13:25 And then I’m like, well, why can’t you be more like me?
1:13:26 Why can’t you be more like me?
1:13:27 Right, we all find our partners,
1:13:29 inherently we’ve attracted to them,
1:13:31 because of all the ways they’re kind of different from us.
1:13:33 And then over time,
1:13:34 we become a little bit repelled
1:13:36 by those exact same things.
1:13:37 That’s like marriage, right?
1:13:38 And so, those differences, I think are at the core, right?
1:13:43 And so I actually think this relates
1:13:46 to that feeling bench a lot, right?
1:13:48 So, your partner is coming to you essentially saying,
1:13:53 I don’t know, I’m gonna make up a situation,
1:13:55 and tell me if it’s close enough.
1:13:57 Like, you didn’t text me and tell me
1:13:59 that you weren’t gonna stop at the store.
1:14:01 And like, I’m really mad,
1:14:02 ’cause I would have then gone by myself, I don’t know.
1:14:05 Is that close enough?
1:14:06 – Or you didn’t text me for two days,
1:14:07 and I thought you would text me in between,
1:14:09 or you know, like you were traveling.
1:14:10 – Great, you didn’t text me for two days
1:14:11 when you were traveling,
1:14:12 like you didn’t even reach out to see
1:14:13 how the last two days were going,
1:14:14 like I’m really mad, right?
1:14:16 Okay, great.
1:14:17 So, I know this sounds silly,
1:14:18 but I think I should really slow this down.
1:14:20 Because what your partner is saying,
1:14:23 what your partner’s not saying is a couple things.
1:14:26 They’re not saying you did anything so important.
1:14:29 They’re not saying I’m right to feel mad
1:14:32 because like that’s the right feeling in the world.
1:14:35 That’s like the right feeling in the world.
1:14:37 And they’re not saying you’re a horrible person.
1:14:40 And they’re not saying you’re at fault.
1:14:42 I think the first thing that really helps
1:14:45 when our partner shares how they feel
1:14:47 is my partner is inviting me
1:14:52 to get to know more about them.
1:14:54 This is an invitation.
1:14:57 They’re getting,
1:14:59 they’re showing me another part of themselves
1:15:00 that’s very vulnerable.
1:15:02 And they’d like me to be in a relationship
1:15:05 with that part of them.
1:15:06 Now, I know this is tricky ’cause you’re like,
1:15:08 but my partner’s also saying
1:15:09 that I did something to relate to that part.
1:15:11 Well, we all do this,
1:15:12 but they’re also saying almost like more zoomed out,
1:15:14 like, hey, now that that thing already happened,
1:15:17 like I’m coming to you.
1:15:18 And this is, I think the Gottman’s called,
1:15:21 this is like a bid for connection.
1:15:22 This is like an invitation.
1:15:24 – Yeah.
1:15:26 – Does that, as a start,
1:15:27 does that shift things a little bit?
1:15:29 – Totally, ’cause it’s like,
1:15:30 I’m reaching out because I care.
1:15:32 If I didn’t care, I wouldn’t be reaching out.
1:15:33 I wouldn’t be engaging in this conversation.
1:15:35 I would just ignore it
1:15:36 and sort of like build resentment slowly.
1:15:39 So the fact that you’re reaching out is a bid.
1:15:42 – That’s right, is a bid, exactly.
1:15:43 And you know, almost, and we don’t communicate this way,
1:15:46 but it’s almost like what a partner’s saying is like,
1:15:49 look, you and I are different.
1:15:51 And if I was traveling for two days,
1:15:53 you might not even notice that I didn’t text.
1:15:56 Or I might come home and be like, wow, you were really busy.
1:15:58 Tell me about how those days traveling were.
1:16:01 And for me, when you don’t text for those two days,
1:16:05 I spiral a little bit.
1:16:06 I feel unseen.
1:16:09 I feel like maybe you forgot about me.
1:16:11 You know, maybe that’s dramatic,
1:16:13 but that’s in somewhere inside me.
1:16:15 And my need is for more communication from you
1:16:19 than your need would be from me.
1:16:21 I think if someone said it to us, we’d be like,
1:16:23 okay, when you lay it out that way,
1:16:24 like I guess when we say I don’t agree,
1:16:27 what we’re really usually saying is,
1:16:29 I wouldn’t feel that way if I were you.
1:16:31 Which I don’t think anyone would disagree with, right?
1:16:34 I think one of the hardest parts
1:16:36 about being in a relationship
1:16:37 with someone who’s inherently different
1:16:39 is that like, wait, I wouldn’t feel that way.
1:16:40 But you do feel that way.
1:16:42 And I do love you.
1:16:43 And I am choosing to be in a relationship with you.
1:16:46 So we have this choice.
1:16:47 It’s like, I can kind of lean on,
1:16:50 and I think like there’s my righteousness,
1:16:52 I wouldn’t feel that way.
1:16:54 Or I can be curious about getting to know more of you.
1:16:59 And I think you’re right then,
1:17:00 same thing with our kids.
1:17:01 I’m sorry you feel that way.
1:17:03 Probably something we should always catch ourselves
1:17:04 if we can before we say it,
1:17:05 because it feels like it’s like neither here nor there.
1:17:08 And so many of the lines we talked about honestly,
1:17:11 if you think about a partner, right?
1:17:12 Who says this, right?
1:17:13 You were gone for two days.
1:17:15 Like, it’s the same thing.
1:17:17 They’re like sitting on a bench, right?
1:17:19 And they’re like sad.
1:17:21 They’re sad.
1:17:23 Or they’re mad, usually under mad is sad.
1:17:26 Also, you know, so it’s probably a little bit of both, right?
1:17:28 I’m mad, I’m sad.
1:17:29 And if you think about sitting down, right?
1:17:32 You’d say like, it’s actually a great first line.
1:17:34 Like, I’m so glad you’re telling me that.
1:17:36 Like, right?
1:17:37 And it’s so interesting how much that diffuses mad
1:17:40 right away, because like most people,
1:17:42 when they’re angry, they’re ready to fight, right?
1:17:44 And like they’re gearing up, right?
1:17:46 And actually, under mad usually is
1:17:49 some more vulnerable emotion.
1:17:50 And I think like, I’m so glad you’re telling me about that,
1:17:52 is it usually starts to get a little closer
1:17:55 than actually that next line, like, I believe you.
1:17:58 Like, I believe you that you were really hurt.
1:18:00 And again, you’re not saying,
1:18:01 and I think this is actually so important in parenting too,
1:18:05 understanding how someone feels in a deep way
1:18:10 is not at all the same thing as agreeing
1:18:14 or saying, I would feel that way too,
1:18:17 or saying that some way is to feel is right in the world,
1:18:19 like in some grand way, it’s just understanding.
1:18:22 It’s not condoning, it’s just understanding, right?
1:18:26 And then like, oh, so tell me, tell me what that was like for you.
1:18:28 Like those three lines, I think are actually
1:18:31 like such an amazing guide in that situation.
1:18:34 I think the problem with me is like,
1:18:36 I don’t, I want to know more deep down inside.
1:18:40 I also don’t want to necessarily,
1:18:44 like my brain just goes to this place where it’s like,
1:18:46 do you agree with this?
1:18:48 Do you not agree with this?
1:18:49 And like, that’s what I want to get out of is this.
1:18:52 Like, I don’t want to be in that sort of binary mode
1:18:54 because if I agree with it, I’m one person.
1:18:57 And if I don’t agree with it,
1:18:58 I’m a completely different person,
1:19:00 which is like cold and distant.
1:19:02 And if I do agree with it,
1:19:03 well, then I’m sitting on that bench with you
1:19:05 and I’m like, oh, totally, like I hate it when that happens.
1:19:08 And yeah.
1:19:09 And I would actually go so far, Shane, to say like,
1:19:12 I actually don’t think it’s great to agree with it either.
1:19:14 Like, I don’t know, you probably,
1:19:15 maybe you wouldn’t feel that way.
1:19:17 Like in my relationship,
1:19:18 my husband says stuff to me all the time that I’m like,
1:19:20 my first reaction to is like, oh, like, oh my God,
1:19:22 because I wouldn’t feel that way.
1:19:23 But I’m like, wait, like I’m in Becky mode.
1:19:26 I know, okay, I want to feel that way.
1:19:27 Like almost like who cares?
1:19:28 Like he’s sharing with me how he feels or, you know,
1:19:31 same thing as the opposite.
1:19:32 So I actually think,
1:19:34 I think it’s so helpful when we’re in relationships
1:19:36 to get out of agreeing or disagreeing.
1:19:40 I actually think, I don’t know,
1:19:41 I’m just thinking about this now.
1:19:42 Like when you’re curious about something,
1:19:43 you’re not sure if you agree or disagree.
1:19:45 You’re actually just like learning.
1:19:47 – So in talking to you today,
1:19:49 I think that’s the conclusion
1:19:51 that I’ve sort of drawn for myself,
1:19:52 which is just like approach it with curiosity and non-judgment
1:19:56 and just try to understand the other person.
1:19:58 And it’s sort of like I do with the podcast.
1:20:01 Like I’m not judging what people say.
1:20:03 I just want to see the world through your eyes.
1:20:05 And I want to smell what you smell.
1:20:07 And I don’t want to agree or disagree with what you’re saying.
1:20:11 I just want to see what the world looks like
1:20:12 through your lens.
1:20:14 – I love that.
1:20:15 And again, that idea of is it me against you
1:20:18 versus me and you against a problem is helpful.
1:20:20 Because if someone’s like,
1:20:21 I tend to get kind of judgmental
1:20:23 when my partner shares their feelings.
1:20:24 And I tend to be like, well, I wouldn’t feel that way.
1:20:26 And so I’m sorry, you feel that way.
1:20:28 If you know that and you want to work on it,
1:20:30 it’s an amazing thing to first share that with your partner
1:20:32 to be like, this is something I’m working on.
1:20:34 It’s like, you know, it really is.
1:20:35 And this is totally not your responsibility.
1:20:37 But again, because I see it as me and my partner
1:20:39 against this problematic dynamic.
1:20:41 I might say, look, the next time you do share
1:20:44 when you’re mad at me, this is so not your responsibility.
1:20:46 But if you’re able, right?
1:20:49 If you could like say to me, like,
1:20:51 I don’t need you to agree, just be curious.
1:20:54 Whatever it is, it almost just would like
1:20:56 bring up that part of you.
1:20:58 Like, I just like that, I don’t know.
1:21:00 And again, you don’t have to because it’s like,
1:21:02 if my partner doesn’t, it doesn’t mean I’ve justified
1:21:05 that I’m allowed to, you know, react with judgment.
1:21:07 But to me, again, it makes us feel like,
1:21:09 let’s together figure out where our conversation goes off
1:21:13 and work together so we can, you know,
1:21:16 move in a more productive direction.
1:21:19 – I want to switch gears a little bit here.
1:21:21 There’s so many other questions I have
1:21:22 and some including from friends.
1:21:24 I want to talk about something that a lot of my friends
1:21:27 seem to be struggling with with their kids.
1:21:29 And I’m going to use the term addiction,
1:21:31 but I’m not using it in a clinical sense.
1:21:33 I’m using it in the sense of like,
1:21:35 teenagers specifically being addicted to screens.
1:21:38 And I’m going to specify screens as their phone
1:21:41 or video games.
1:21:42 And that addiction shows some classic signs
1:21:46 of an actual addiction, including behavior
1:21:49 where you’re sneaking around, you’re hiding your phone,
1:21:52 you’re doing things that you shouldn’t be doing.
1:21:53 And maybe you’re missing school assignments
1:21:56 because you’re at school and you’re playing video games.
1:21:59 And so like it’s the baby steps towards an actual addiction
1:22:02 and maybe a clinical sort of,
1:22:05 what can we do as parents with the lying,
1:22:09 the sneaking, and this is not,
1:22:12 I mean, my kids exhibit this from time to time.
1:22:15 I think most teenagers is just sort of like part
1:22:18 of being a teenager as well.
1:22:19 You walk in your kid’s room and maybe they have their phone
1:22:22 and they’re trying to hide it and they’re covering it up
1:22:24 and they’re lying about it.
1:22:25 And how do we deal with screens specifically,
1:22:30 borderline addiction where it’s causing other problems
1:22:34 and the kids can’t self-regulate in terms of,
1:22:37 I need to get off my phone, I’ve been on it enough today.
1:22:41 – So first of all, the deck is stacked against us here.
1:22:44 I just want to say this, like,
1:22:45 I think back on the days where, I mean, I think this is true.
1:22:48 Sorry, my history isn’t amazing,
1:22:49 but like I’m guessing at some point kids could buy cigarettes,
1:22:51 you know, and it’d be like, how do I stop my kids?
1:22:53 How do I stop my kids?
1:22:54 At some point the government’s like,
1:22:55 we can’t leave it to parents.
1:22:56 Like these things are awful.
1:22:57 Like for kids, we know that they’re not in a place
1:23:00 to make good decisions.
1:23:01 And so there has to be legislation to make change.
1:23:03 I really believe kids in screens like are the same
1:23:06 and like we’re living in a time now
1:23:07 where it’s just all on parents
1:23:09 and I just feel for every parent.
1:23:10 So it’s just, if it feels really hard
1:23:12 and you’re struggling, like,
1:23:14 I think that’s the best it gets, right?
1:23:16 So I have a few more ideas than that.
1:23:17 But so second, kids cannot self-regulate with phones, period.
1:23:23 I would also say adults cannot self-regulate with phones.
1:23:26 They are stronger than us.
1:23:27 I have a very hard time if my phone’s anywhere near me,
1:23:30 not grabbing it and thinking about something to do.
1:23:32 So the idea that a kid won’t self-regulate
1:23:35 or isn’t listening or isn’t getting off
1:23:37 when they know their time is up,
1:23:38 I think we have to actually say like,
1:23:39 they are literally incapable of doing that.
1:23:43 And I think that’s actually a really important foundation
1:23:45 because it changes the types of interventions
1:23:48 we would even think to use.
1:23:50 So that’s two.
1:23:52 Three.
1:23:53 Our number one job as parents is to keep our kids safe.
1:23:58 And maybe that’s obvious,
1:23:59 but it’s also, it’s a line I’ve said to my kids
1:24:01 since they were young when my issues weren’t screens,
1:24:03 but it was like, I don’t know,
1:24:05 throwing sand at another kid in the sandbox
1:24:08 at which point I’d pick my son up.
1:24:09 And he’s like, no, no.
1:24:10 And even though he’d thrown five times,
1:24:12 I’d say, I’m picking you up, I’m bringing you to the car.
1:24:14 My number one job is to keep you safe.
1:24:16 And I will keep you safe even when you’re upset with me.
1:24:17 Like I used to like,
1:24:18 and it’s so interesting how I think about that now.
1:24:21 Our number one job is to keep our kids safe.
1:24:23 And we love our kids so much that we will keep them safe
1:24:25 even when they’re upset with us.
1:24:27 And putting that into practice is messy for sure,
1:24:30 but I still think the principle really matters.
1:24:32 My number one job is not to keep my kid happy.
1:24:35 It’s to keep my kids safe.
1:24:37 I actually say that to make it a lot.
1:24:39 What’s my number one job to keep you safe or happy?
1:24:41 I’m gonna be like, I know I was safe.
1:24:42 Right, but it’s really true.
1:24:44 Okay, next.
1:24:46 As parents, we can change our rules any time.
1:24:50 Like to me, this is one of the biggest things
1:24:52 I would talk about with parents in private practice.
1:24:54 They’d be like, these are the things that aren’t working.
1:24:57 And it would be like, their bedtime is too late
1:24:58 or screen rules.
1:24:59 I’d be like, okay, talking about changing them.
1:25:00 They’re like, oh, it’s too late.
1:25:02 It’s like, it’s been like this.
1:25:04 You know, I don’t know, like imagine,
1:25:06 imagine being on a plane, flying to California.
1:25:09 And like, it’s not just turbulent,
1:25:11 like major issues and you have to make an emergency landing.
1:25:14 And the pilot’s like, well, I don’t know.
1:25:16 We’ve got to go to Los Angeles.
1:25:18 So I guess there’s nothing we can do.
1:25:19 It’s like, what, like change course.
1:25:22 And if the pilot was like,
1:25:23 we’re going to make an emergency landing in Denver.
1:25:26 And all the passengers are like, what, that’s so annoying.
1:25:29 And the pilot was like, you know what, forget it, forget it.
1:25:34 Everyone seems pretty upset.
1:25:35 We’re just going to keep going.
1:25:37 Like, I don’t think anyone would want that pilot.
1:25:40 You’d actually probably be pissed at your pilot for,
1:25:43 even though like, you believe maybe it’s dangerous,
1:25:45 but maybe you underestimate it.
1:25:46 You’re like, we have to lend a Denver.
1:25:47 I’m so annoyed, but like, you’d be so freaking grateful
1:25:50 that the pilot knew what their job was,
1:25:53 even though people were putting up a protest.
1:25:56 And like, we are that pilot for our kids.
1:25:58 You can change altitude, change course, change rules.
1:26:02 And if you know your kid has their phone in the room
1:26:04 when they’re doing their homework, period.
1:26:06 Like, our kids should not have their phones in their room
1:26:08 when they’re doing their homework.
1:26:09 And let’s even take that and play it out.
1:26:12 Well, my kid always does.
1:26:14 And they’re like, not just 13 anymore.
1:26:16 They’re 17 and how could I change that?
1:26:18 I’m going to walk through how to change that.
1:26:20 Hey, sweetie, I have something to tell you
1:26:21 and you’re, I know you’re not going to like it,
1:26:23 but look, I’ve been thinking about certain things.
1:26:26 And my number one job is to like help make good decisions.
1:26:29 Even when you’re upset with me,
1:26:30 that’s actually how much I love you.
1:26:32 That I’m willing to make decisions
1:26:33 that I really do believe are good for you,
1:26:35 even if you’re going to be really, really mad at me.
1:26:37 And I’m about to share one of those decisions.
1:26:39 When you come home from school,
1:26:41 we have a box to put your phone in.
1:26:44 And it’s not walking it away.
1:26:45 That phone comes back to you
1:26:47 as soon as you finished your homework.
1:26:48 And I know you’re used to having your phone in your room.
1:26:51 And I know I’ve allowed it.
1:26:52 I know we’ve argued about it.
1:26:53 Starting tomorrow, it’s not happening.
1:26:55 I just want to be fair, it’s not.
1:26:56 And if you yell at me and if you’re mad, it’s not happening.
1:26:59 And the reason it’s not happening
1:27:01 is because it’s not like you have bad willpower.
1:27:03 It is literally impossible to focus on schoolwork.
1:27:07 For even adults, it would be.
1:27:08 While we have in a device
1:27:10 that has so many fun games on it right next to us.
1:27:12 And I know that’s a change.
1:27:14 And I know that the first couple of days will be hard.
1:27:16 And I actually know that at some point after,
1:27:18 it’ll become a lot easier.
1:27:20 And I know in my modeling of that first of all,
1:27:25 it’s really easy to say that to you.
1:27:27 Like you’re not my kid
1:27:28 and you’re not about to yell at me, right?
1:27:30 But what parents say to me all the time is they’re like,
1:27:32 the way you said that sounded like actually nice,
1:27:35 but like no nonsense.
1:27:37 Like I didn’t doubt that you meant that, you know?
1:27:40 ‘Cause I think our kids smell our doubt.
1:27:42 And also what we do, and I just wanna model this.
1:27:44 I know you noticed your grades have been slipping.
1:27:49 And I’m just thinking about your phone in your room.
1:27:51 And I know you know that’s not a good idea, right?
1:27:54 You know that’s not a good idea, right?
1:27:56 And I think today we should try.
1:27:58 That literally is like a pilot coming on
1:28:00 and being like, you guys know it’s a good idea
1:28:03 to land in Denver, right?
1:28:04 Like can I just get a vote out there?
1:28:06 Don’t you think it’s a good idea
1:28:07 to have an emergency landing?
1:28:08 You’d be like, where is my leader?
1:28:10 This is crazy talk.
1:28:11 Just tell me, you know?
1:28:12 And I think that metaphor matters so much
1:28:15 because what I would tell parents to do,
1:28:17 and I really mean this concretely,
1:28:18 get out your phone, first write a script for yourself.
1:28:21 You can read it to your kids if this is new for you
1:28:23 to kind of embody your authority in an appropriate way, right?
1:28:27 Not in a mean way, but an appropriate way.
1:28:28 Get out a voice recorder and read the script
1:28:30 into your phone and then play it back to yourself.
1:28:32 It’s amazing.
1:28:33 You’ll be like, wow, I really sounded
1:28:35 like I was asking my kid.
1:28:35 I didn’t even believe myself.
1:28:36 I didn’t even believe myself.
1:28:38 And then say it again.
1:28:39 And you’d be like, wow, that sounded like mean
1:28:41 and harsh and critical.
1:28:42 OK, OK, so I have the two ends.
1:28:44 Let me try it again.
1:28:45 Literally, just like we said, it’s like practice, right?
1:28:50 And it goes back to boundaries.
1:28:52 I can’t ask my kid to be doing my job for me.
1:28:57 And I think we do that a lot with kids, and they smell it.
1:29:00 And it’s why they act out more, not to take advantage of us,
1:29:02 but because they don’t feel like they have a sturdy leader.
1:29:06 Do you think that’s– that happened or more
1:29:08 prone to happen when we want them?
1:29:11 A lot of parents seem to want to be friends with their kids
1:29:14 first and sort of the pilot second.
1:29:16 And do you think when we conflate those two things
1:29:19 that we tend to be like, get in trouble?
1:29:22 Yeah, it’s interesting.
1:29:23 I think about how important it is to be connected to our kids.
1:29:26 And let’s say friends is a form of connection.
1:29:28 I don’t know, though.
1:29:29 In my close friendships, I’m not boundaryless.
1:29:32 I don’t think a good friendship is always
1:29:33 making my friends happy.
1:29:35 So if that’s someone definition of friend,
1:29:37 then I guess then they’re trying to be friends with their kids.
1:29:39 To me, that’s never how I try to be friends with my friends.
1:29:41 Definitely not with my kids.
1:29:42 To me, any good relationship comes from both being
1:29:45 connected to someone else and connected to yourself.
1:29:50 Yeah, maybe it’s more like you want your kid to like you,
1:29:53 I guess, which is a very human sort of need, right?
1:29:55 And I think, though, we know also from so much research,
1:30:00 how much teens find so much comfort when their parents are
1:30:05 protecting them.
1:30:06 They don’t gratify you.
1:30:07 Like, by the way, if I said this thing just about the phone
1:30:10 thing, my son, even if I deliver it the way,
1:30:13 it’s not going to be like, mom, you are such a sturdy leader,
1:30:16 and I feel so taken care of by you.
1:30:18 I just want to tell you that.
1:30:19 No, no, he would not.
1:30:22 That would be crazy down my son.
1:30:23 My son, too, would be like, that’s not fair.
1:30:25 And all my friends do.
1:30:26 And you’re saying, you know, trust me.
1:30:27 Oh, are you saying, you don’t trust me?
1:30:28 That would be like, sweetie, this is not about trust.
1:30:30 This is actually just about me making a decision
1:30:34 that I know is the right one.
1:30:35 That’s really all it’s about.
1:30:36 I think this also relates to something we aren’t taught
1:30:40 and therefore don’t expect as parents,
1:30:42 that two things that are totally independent
1:30:44 is us making a good decision as a parent
1:30:46 and our kid having a big emotional reaction.
1:30:49 They’re both equally true and equally valid.
1:30:51 We kind of fool ourselves into thinking,
1:30:54 like, if I make an amazing decision as a parent,
1:30:56 my kid’s going to be like, that sounds good.
1:30:59 But we also do the opposite, is that when we see our kid be
1:31:02 very mad at us, we think it means we made a bad decision.
1:31:05 And to me, the idea of like, two things are true.
1:31:07 I’m allowed to make decisions.
1:31:09 And my kid is allowed to have emotional reactions.
1:31:11 Neither is more true than the other.
1:31:13 Neither is more right than the other.
1:31:14 They’re just two truths I have to hold at once.
1:31:17 Can really prepare us.
1:31:18 And so if you’re going to have a conversation like this,
1:31:19 we can go through other things about this too.
1:31:21 Actually, going in as a parent, and I always call this
1:31:23 emotional vaccination, right?
1:31:25 Like, vaccinating ourselves.
1:31:27 Like, I would actually go through this.
1:31:28 This was me and I was nervous.
1:31:30 And this was like a new thing for me to do.
1:31:32 I’d probably like, play this out with a partner or friend.
1:31:35 I’d be like, can you be our son?
1:31:37 Like, can you do it?
1:31:38 I’d give myself a rep.
1:31:39 Like, it is like taking foul shots in the gym.
1:31:41 Like, I find sports to be like the most useful metaphor.
1:31:43 Like, you know, we take foul shots in the gym,
1:31:46 so we can do it in the game.
1:31:47 Like, well, you’re going to do something for the very first
1:31:49 time to your teenage son, who you know is going to be upset.
1:31:51 And you think that’s going to feel great or feel even
1:31:53 successful, of course not.
1:31:54 Like, do a drive run, do it with your friend, and have them.
1:31:56 I would really have my husband in the case, because like, no.
1:31:59 And like, it will feel a little funny because I know he’s acting.
1:32:02 But my body will start to develop like a little bit of a circuit
1:32:06 for saying it, for tolerating it.
1:32:08 So then at least with my son, it’s my second time.
1:32:11 And not like the first time.
1:32:13 No, I think that’s a beautiful way to sort of tie it together.
1:32:15 Do you think a lot of my friends sort of like try to,
1:32:20 I don’t know, resolve this issue is the right word.
1:32:22 But it’s like, well, if you get above, you know, 80,
1:32:26 you can have X amount of video game time per day.
1:32:29 And if your report card has your grades above 90,
1:32:32 you can have X times two.
1:32:34 What is that doing?
1:32:36 Well, I think now we’re talking about so many different things
1:32:38 about like grades and about our focus on them and kids building
1:32:44 intrinsic motivation versus extrinsic motivation.
1:32:47 And, you know, the part of that that I think is well-intentioned,
1:32:52 OK, is I mean, everything’s well-intentioned.
1:32:55 But the part of me that strikes me about that in a positive way
1:32:57 is I think to some degree we’re saying,
1:32:59 I want to make sure you’re like doing the developmental tasks
1:33:03 of your age, like you’re supposed to be going to school,
1:33:05 you’re supposed to be doing your work.
1:33:06 And if I think you’re– and we both
1:33:08 think you’re kind of capable of performing a certain way,
1:33:11 not for some outside reason, but just because it’s
1:33:13 in line with your abilities, like I
1:33:14 want to make sure you’re progressing in that way.
1:33:16 And maybe these are markers that you’re kind of completing
1:33:20 those developmental tasks.
1:33:21 I get that.
1:33:22 I don’t think that’s how kids receive it.
1:33:24 I think it feels like grades are the thing that matters.
1:33:27 And, you know, that’s all.
1:33:29 I mean, I don’t think there’s a perfect system.
1:33:33 So that’s why I think we’re all like muddying around in this.
1:33:37 I do think when it comes to, you know, screen time and how much
1:33:42 and when, to me, this is like actually a great time
1:33:45 to call kind of a family meeting of sorts.
1:33:48 That’s what I call them, where especially as your kids get older
1:33:50 to say, hey, I think we should have a meeting, you know,
1:33:52 and really talk about screen time and when it happens
1:33:55 and where it happens.
1:33:56 And I’m going to have some ideas.
1:33:58 You’re going to have some ideas.
1:33:59 We’ll kind of get them all down on paper.
1:34:00 And then we’ll probably agree on some ideas
1:34:02 that each of us don’t totally love, but can agree to, right?
1:34:06 And then actually doing that and to be like, OK.
1:34:09 So when should you– let’s talk about when you’re
1:34:12 going to do video games.
1:34:13 Other things related to that are homework.
1:34:16 Are, you know, playing, you know, with your sister, you know,
1:34:21 or, you know, like general, how are you doing in school?
1:34:25 I don’t think that’s the only thing that matters,
1:34:26 but maybe it’s one data source that we think about.
1:34:29 OK, let’s go through it.
1:34:30 And then what I think is really key, OK,
1:34:33 is when you start to brainstorm, first of all,
1:34:35 to literally write things down.
1:34:36 That’s not, like, just something I’m saying.
1:34:38 When you write down things other people are saying,
1:34:41 especially if they’re topics that are kind of conflictual,
1:34:43 the other person immediately feels respected, right?
1:34:45 Like, imagine your boss being like, wait,
1:34:47 you want to raise me, write down all the reasons.
1:34:49 You’d be like, wow, I feel very seen, you know?
1:34:51 So to actually write it down and to start this off
1:34:53 in a productive way, it’s really helpful to, like,
1:34:58 break the ice a little bit as a parent
1:34:59 with, like, the first thing.
1:35:00 So it’d be like, when can you play video games, right?
1:35:04 And maybe, like, I would start off saying, like, you know,
1:35:08 I’ve actually totally changed my mind,
1:35:09 and I kind of feel like you probably only need three hours
1:35:12 of sleep, and so I think you should play video games from,
1:35:15 I don’t know, probably from, like, 10 p.m. to, like, 4 a.m.
1:35:18 OK, so I’m just going to write it down.
1:35:19 And, like, my son would be like, whoa.
1:35:21 But, like, if I get the eye roll, he thinks he’s rolling his eyes,
1:35:24 and I’m like, I just won there, because, like, I’m just,
1:35:26 like, starting.
1:35:26 So I’d write down, literally, one, video games from,
1:35:30 you know, 10 p.m. to 4 a.m. OK, two.
1:35:32 And as soon as you start that way,
1:35:34 your kid’s going to be a little more engaged, right?
1:35:36 And then I would write it down, and then you review, oh, 12.
1:35:39 You know, oh, not many hours of video games.
1:35:40 Oh, you know what, I don’t know.
1:35:42 10 p.m. to 4 a.m., it’s like, it’s kind of a lot, you know?
1:35:44 And I don’t know, maybe you need more than three hours.
1:35:46 I’m just going to, like, kind of put an X in that one.
1:35:47 That’s probably not our best idea. And, again, what you hear in this example
1:35:50 is this is me and my son against kind of the video game schedule.
1:35:56 It’s not me against my son.
1:35:59 I love that, because you’re sitting on the bench in your word,
1:36:02 and you’re like, here’s the problem.
1:36:03 We’re on the same side of the table,
1:36:05 and we’re trying to address this problem together.
1:36:07 I think that’s a really effective way to do it.
1:36:09 How do you think about currency?
1:36:11 And I think that’s what it is, right?
1:36:12 People are trying to find a currency to control a behavior.
1:36:16 Yes.
1:36:16 And it has implications on long term, but, like, half the time,
1:36:21 and, like, I feel like I deserve an Olympic medal just for the kids,
1:36:25 you know, not dying that day and making it through the day.
1:36:29 And I imagine other parents feel the same way.
1:36:31 You know, it’s like, oh, my God, you know, I just did this normal day,
1:36:36 but it feels like an Olympic-level effort.
1:36:38 I just need to, like, find these little things that I mean,
1:36:42 there’s trade-offs, right?
1:36:43 Like, I need to figure out today before I can figure out long term.
1:36:48 How do you think about that in terms of, yeah,
1:36:51 we want our kids to be intrinsically motivated.
1:36:54 We can’t let them regulate their own screen time.
1:36:57 For many parents of teens, it’s one of the few currencies they actually care about.
1:37:03 I mean, I remember myself as a teenager.
1:37:05 My mom would be like, you can’t have this.
1:37:06 I’d be like, whatever.
1:37:08 I don’t need anything, you know, like, that whole attitude.
1:37:10 And at one point she took everything out of my room.
1:37:12 She literally, this is my mom, right?
1:37:14 Like, we’re going to have a power struggle.
1:37:16 You are going to lose.
1:37:17 I come in my room.
1:37:18 There’s, like, a mattress on the floor.
1:37:20 There’s no nightstand.
1:37:21 There’s no alarm clock.
1:37:22 There’s no nothing.
1:37:24 And, you know, in that moment, I was like, all right, it’s probably not.
1:37:29 But of course, I’m, like, lying there just, like, looking at the ceiling.
1:37:33 I will show no weakness, right?
1:37:35 Well, I’m trying to get to the bottom of your question,
1:37:37 because when I think about currency, to me, and maybe it kind of goes back
1:37:42 to your question of, like, the status of our relationship with our kid.
1:37:46 To me, if we’re thinking about our relationship with our kid
1:37:49 in terms of what we could give or take away that they care about,
1:37:53 we’re not in a great place.
1:37:56 Because I think if someone heard my husband being like,
1:37:58 what can I take away from Becky or give her?
1:38:01 If she just, you know, did the dishwasher more?
1:38:04 They’d be like, wow, I don’t know if I can answer your question
1:38:07 as much as I’m struck by this disturbing nature of your question.
1:38:12 Well, so this is super interesting.
1:38:13 So I was at the gym before this, and I was actually thinking about this.
1:38:15 And I was like, I wonder if a good indicator that what I’m doing as parenting
1:38:21 is probably not ideal if I wouldn’t do it to an adult.
1:38:25 I mean, I think that that’s, you know, like, here’s a great example of that.
1:38:28 Like, I think one of the number one things people tell me is there’s a lot of things.
1:38:33 But it’s, my kid doesn’t listen.
1:38:36 My kid doesn’t listen to me.
1:38:36 They don’t listen to me, right?
1:38:38 Like, it’s so common.
1:38:40 And, you know, I think about this.
1:38:42 Like, if I was sitting on my couch and I was just like, you know,
1:38:45 in the two minutes I have before my kids go to bed and I go to bed,
1:38:47 my two minutes, I’m like reading a book and my husband was also on the couch.
1:38:50 And he’s like, hey, can you go to the kitchen and get me water?
1:38:53 And I was like, I’m like reading my book.
1:38:55 Like, sorry, like you can get water.
1:38:57 And if he was like, you have a listening problem
1:38:59 and I’m going to take away your phone.
1:39:01 OK, I just, I feel like if someone was watching, I feel like they’d be like, Becky,
1:39:06 like, I feel like that’s gaslighting at best, maybe abusive.
1:39:08 Like, I feel like that is, that is, if anything, like that is his problem.
1:39:12 You just didn’t get him water, right?
1:39:14 And we do that to our kids all the time.
1:39:16 And if you’re like me and you’re where’s the moment you’re like, turn off the TV.
1:39:18 You’re not even near them.
1:39:19 You’re just like, yeah, it’d be like my husband in his room being like, go get me
1:39:22 water and bring it to the bedroom.
1:39:24 And I’m like, WTF, no.
1:39:27 And then he punishes me.
1:39:28 And we do that to our kids all the time.
1:39:31 So listening, cooperation, like why would I get my husband water?
1:39:36 Really, I’d either get him water because I was scared of him.
1:39:39 I would.
1:39:40 Wiring fear next to love is not something I recommend.
1:39:46 Because, yes, what that means, I’ll lay it out is your kid will go into their adult
1:39:49 relationships, thinking loving relationships are one in which you fear your partner.
1:39:53 And that’s who they’ll be attracted to, literally.
1:39:55 That’s what their attraction will be.
1:39:56 I don’t know any adult who wants that.
1:39:58 So I do not recommend for a lot of reasons.
1:40:00 Why else would I get my husband water?
1:40:01 Well, first of all, I probably wouldn’t have yelled at me across.
1:40:04 But if he was like, I know this is annoying and we’re both like kind of
1:40:07 trying to do our own things or any way you get me water.
1:40:08 The reason I’d say yes is because I felt close to him.
1:40:11 Maybe early in the day, he listened to me.
1:40:13 Maybe he’s been really supportive.
1:40:14 And that’s why, because I feel close to him.
1:40:17 And if he said to me, if you get me water, if you get me water, I’m just
1:40:20 laughing, if you get me water 10 days in a row, I’m going to give you a diamond necklace.
1:40:23 Okay.
1:40:23 I’d be like, okay, I probably will.
1:40:25 But I would also feel like our relationship is probably like not in a great place.
1:40:30 It’s transactional.
1:40:31 It’s transactional.
1:40:32 What’s so tricky is teens will get to the age where like they don’t have to hang out
1:40:37 with you and like they’re too big to put in a time out and they don’t care about
1:40:44 sticker charts and they don’t care about rewards.
1:40:47 And I think about this teen who, you know, him and his parents came to see me, you
1:40:53 know, in my practice and they came only because he had stopped going to school.
1:40:56 So like it was, you know, that’s pretty intense, like school refusal, right?
1:40:58 Like, then you’re like, shoot, like, what do I do?
1:41:00 My 14 year old stopping.
1:41:01 And I got the whole history and this was a kid and the parents were always getting
1:41:05 all these recommendations.
1:41:06 Like the kid was quote, difficult.
1:41:07 So he did a lot of time outs and punishments and sticker charts and rewards
1:41:10 and ignoring and power struggles.
1:41:11 And they missed out on 14 years of having a relationship with him.
1:41:15 They’d never relationship with him.
1:41:17 And now he was big and old and never too late.
1:41:21 We did so much work.
1:41:22 There was a lot of repair and moving forward in a very different direction.
1:41:25 But yeah, it’s like, it sounds so obvious, but it’s like, our kids are human.
1:41:30 Like they’re human.
1:41:31 They’re closer to adults than they are to animals that you’re trying to train
1:41:35 and shape their behavior.
1:41:37 And yes, I think the way to think about your relationship with your kid and
1:41:41 the place it’s at is like the way we relate to each other and the way I relate
1:41:45 to my child, like it’s not the same.
1:41:47 But is it based on the same principles at least in which I would engage in my
1:41:52 like healthiest adult relationship?
1:41:55 No, I think that’s a really good approach to it.
1:41:58 I mean, I haven’t really thought of it in that way.
1:42:00 I mean, I sort of like am I worst?
1:42:02 I catch myself using that as a currency.
1:42:04 And you know, it’s a currency when I say you can’t have it until you do your homework.
1:42:09 Right. And there’s a way in which I think that could be shifted.
1:42:12 So like, let’s say it’s like, you can’t have your phone until you do homework.
1:42:15 I mean, this actually is all about that mindset.
1:42:17 Am I looking at you on one side of the table or are we on the same side of the table?
1:42:20 Like my son, my right has a phone.
1:42:23 OK, my oldest.
1:42:25 And like he doesn’t get his between getting home and doing his homework, right?
1:42:29 He doesn’t have his phone and then he gets it after.
1:42:31 But not because like versus like not because like I’m not going to give it
1:42:35 to you until after it’s like out of again, like this is a problem.
1:42:38 We’re both in together.
1:42:39 Like it would it’s hard to have your phone and perform well.
1:42:42 And like, I know he wants to do well inherently.
1:42:46 I also know phones are addicting and playing a video game or looking up
1:42:49 stats on ESPN is inherently more fun than doing hard math homework for anyone.
1:42:54 So I’m helping him, I’m protecting him, but through this boundary.
1:42:59 So hey, sweetie, just a reminder, your phone goes here.
1:43:01 It’s just too hard for any of us to focus, you know, with our phone
1:43:04 right there when we’re doing hard work.
1:43:06 And yeah, as soon as it’s all done, this will come back to you.
1:43:08 Like, and that’s also the way I would want, again, like my partner
1:43:12 or another adult to talk to me.
1:43:14 That’s a big takeaway for me from this conversation is just approaching it
1:43:18 like you would approach an adult that you’re in a long-term relationship with.
1:43:21 You can’t win the day at the expense of the decade and you have to approach it
1:43:26 in a way the mindset really matters by which you approach the conversation,
1:43:30 even if the outcome is likely to be the same.
1:43:33 And I think that that’s fascinating.
1:43:35 I have a couple of quick questions, perhaps before we wind up here.
1:43:39 Great.
1:43:40 One question that one of my friends had was about when adolescence is actually over.
1:43:45 It seems like it’s become a prolonged life stage.
1:43:48 And there’s even been formal proposals now to increase the end range from 19 to 24.
1:43:54 Do you agree with this?
1:43:56 How should parents and societies sort of like gear themselves up for this?
1:43:59 So I don’t know if that’s like it actually just makes me think like, again,
1:44:03 if I’m sitting on the same side of the table as my kid, would I be like,
1:44:06 hey, you’re an adult now, like, I don’t know, I feel like it doesn’t roll off.
1:44:09 I see you like, OK, but I think I’m relying this question is like,
1:44:12 when does my kid become a more independent?
1:44:14 And like, when do they start to take care of themselves?
1:44:16 Right. And I actually think this gets back to something we didn’t touch on,
1:44:18 but you mentioned earlier, which is the idea of like letting our kids struggle, right?
1:44:22 To me, one of the things that I think
1:44:25 for some reason is getting increasingly hard to do in parenting
1:44:29 is just it’s just letting your kid live the results of like their actions, you know?
1:44:35 And to me, that’s not like the word consequence, but to me, a great example.
1:44:39 And it does relate to prolonged adolescence versus I think when we say launching
1:44:42 into adulthood, it’s just like feeling capable and feeling more independent
1:44:45 is I think we have to ask ourselves like when my kids are young
1:44:49 and entering adolescence for getting prolonged, am I setting them up for that?
1:44:52 Right. Am I setting them up? What is the circuit?
1:44:55 I’m always thinking about this. What is the circuit I’m building with my kid?
1:44:58 So, for example, my kid recently had swim in middle school
1:45:02 and I saw he forgot his bathing suit, right?
1:45:06 And like, I probably could have like jumped in my car or something.
1:45:08 And I’m just like, OK, what’s the circuit?
1:45:10 And this is not have to be like all the time.
1:45:12 But in general, it’s like, OK, he forgets, you know,
1:45:15 and then someone remembers for him, OK, right?
1:45:18 He forgets he doesn’t have his bathing suit.
1:45:23 His swim, his gym teacher is like, oh, like, you need to have your baby.
1:45:27 Whatever happens.
1:45:28 And my guess is then he’d be more likely to remember, right?
1:45:32 As long as I’m stepping in and doing the remembering for my kid,
1:45:37 I don’t know why we think our kid is going to start doing the remembering for themselves.
1:45:41 It actually reminds me of the towel.
1:45:42 Maybe I’d say seems hard to remember.
1:45:44 How could you remember how?
1:45:45 And he’d be like, oh, maybe I’ll do the towel thing.
1:45:47 I’ll put it. I think a great idea, right?
1:45:49 So I think one of the things you have to think about
1:45:50 if we don’t want to have this like prolonged adolescence in our kid is this.
1:45:53 How am I scaffolding skills that my kid can have?
1:45:58 How am I helping them build independence?
1:46:00 And in what ways am I picking short term gains?
1:46:04 But at the expense of maybe long term skills.
1:46:08 And we all have to give ourselves permission to do that sometimes.
1:46:09 Sometimes you’re like, I just have to make it easy.
1:46:11 Like, don’t forget your homework or something, right?
1:46:13 But I think in general, the pattern, I think that’s something we can really reflect on
1:46:17 and then maybe shift, you know, a little bit with our kids.
1:46:20 What do you think about competitive sports?
1:46:23 What do I think about competitive sports?
1:46:25 I mean, you know, I’m not sure how exact I had to answer that.
1:46:28 But I don’t know if you’re there’s a lot of things that I start thinking about.
1:46:32 I think about how early kids are, you know, I think pushed into these
1:46:36 like super intense sports where I feel like when I was going up,
1:46:39 kids did a lot of different things.
1:46:40 And then I’m also thinking, I don’t know if this is where you’re thinking about
1:46:42 about parents, parents’ relationship with their kids, athleticism and what,
1:46:48 you know, goes on in the sidelines and kind of, I think, in a way, like our
1:46:52 unlived dreams, you know, translated into pressure
1:46:55 and identification with our kids, you know, and it’s almost hard to separate
1:47:00 who’s engaging in the competitive sport like my kid or me.
1:47:06 And so I think, you know, I think what’s important as much as possible
1:47:11 is to try to really like center our kids in this.
1:47:13 Like, what are they like?
1:47:15 What are they interested in?
1:47:16 Are they seeming to get something out of this?
1:47:18 What’s their wish? What’s my wish?
1:47:20 Is it their wish because they’re interested?
1:47:21 Are they just trying to like they kind of notice how happy this seems to make me
1:47:25 and they want to be like a good, you know, daughter in my eyes?
1:47:28 Like those questions are helpful.
1:47:29 Two final questions before we wrap up here.
1:47:32 Why do we as parents wrap up so much of our identity?
1:47:39 And this goes back to a few things we talked about earlier in our kids.
1:47:43 And we sort of like want to live vicariously through them in some ways
1:47:49 or one up other parents or think our way is better.
1:47:52 And it’s sort of like the worst part of ourselves.
1:47:55 And, you know, I noticed this a lot with other people, probably not myself.
1:48:01 And I’m definitely I’m sure I do it sometimes.
1:48:03 But we wrap ourselves up in our kids’ successes or failures.
1:48:07 And we think we’re good parents if they’re doing good
1:48:11 and we’re bad parents if they’re doing bad.
1:48:12 And I think probably for a number of reasons,
1:48:15 I think we’re just like very unprepared psychologically
1:48:19 for what happens when we become a parent, you know, our kids come along.
1:48:24 And so many of our on the dreams are insecurities, things we never got to do.
1:48:30 We don’t even realize how we see our kids as like a channel to like achieve those things.
1:48:35 And we think we can like heal ourselves, you know, through through our kids.
1:48:41 As opposed to the opposite journey, which is like pausing and instead of gazing outward
1:48:46 like to our kids to fix them almost gazing inward, like, wait, what’s going on for me here?
1:48:50 I think everyone who’s becoming a parent should probably take time
1:48:54 to reflect on like, what are my insecurities?
1:48:55 What are the parts of life that I, you know, regret or didn’t get?
1:48:59 Or, you know, did I never become a D1 athlete?
1:49:02 And what would that become?
1:49:03 What would be like if I had a kid, like what’s probably going to come out, right?
1:49:06 I think we’re kind of unprepared for the amount of self reflection
1:49:09 being a like very present parent who’s actually centered on our kid requires.
1:49:13 Yeah, that’s so fascinating.
1:49:15 As you said that, it’s sort of like jogged this thought, which was,
1:49:19 you know, at some point in our probably 35 to 50 age range, we’re like, OK,
1:49:26 well, this is where I’m at in life.
1:49:28 But now there’s this do over, right?
1:49:30 Everything is possible again with with children.
1:49:32 And so I might not have got all the things that I wanted to get out of life.
1:49:36 But now all of a sudden I can put all of my pressure on you as a child in some ways.
1:49:42 I’m always, you know, I don’t know if you read Far from the Tree by Andrew Solomon,
1:49:46 but to me, the prologue, the first page, like, I think every parent should read.
1:49:49 And it just starts with him saying there’s no such thing as a reproduction.
1:49:53 Like the word reproduction is a fantasy.
1:49:57 That’s like you produce, you produce.
1:50:00 And what he says about parenting, he goes,
1:50:03 what parenting really is is being forever cast into our relationship with a stranger.
1:50:07 And every time I just think I just think so many of our struggles
1:50:10 as parents come down to that, like we don’t reproduce, we produce.
1:50:13 And this kid is a stranger and our job is to kind of get to know them.
1:50:15 But the word reproduction brings like right from the start,
1:50:19 brings up very different fantasies for us.
1:50:21 That’s beautiful.
1:50:23 And the final question we always ask every guest is,
1:50:26 what is success for you?
1:50:28 I think about success as I’m being able to like live in line with values.
1:50:34 And to me, that’s like feels good.
1:50:36 Like when you’re aware of what your values are
1:50:39 and you’re able to kind of act and behave most of the time
1:50:42 in a way that’s really in line with them.
1:50:45 I think this really circles back to our conversation.
1:50:47 I think our ability to do that really depends on our emotion,
1:50:51 regulation skills, on our strong relationships, you know,
1:50:54 about reflecting and being curious about why we do the things we do.
1:50:58 But to me, like I feel really successful
1:51:01 in days when I feel like, oh, and like I’m living in line
1:51:04 with the things that I value, I’m showing up in the world in that way.
1:51:07 It’s a beautiful way to end this.
1:51:09 Thank you so much.
1:51:11 Thank you.
1:51:13 What an incredible conversation with Dr.
1:51:17 Becky, I think the two biggest things that I took away from that,
1:51:23 the three biggest things actually were her solution
1:51:27 to approaching challenging conversations
1:51:31 when somebody brings something up, which is I’m glad you’re telling me about this.
1:51:36 I believe you and tell me more that three steps, those are amazing.
1:51:41 AVP, it relates to AVP, which we sort of hit on on the podcast,
1:51:46 which I thought was incredible.
1:51:47 The second one that I thought was really interesting.
1:51:50 The second point, the big point that I took away from this was
1:51:53 it’s me and you and me and my kids, me and your partner,
1:51:58 whoever you’re with against the problem.
1:52:01 And that mindset shift is huge, which is you’re not the problem.
1:52:06 We have a problem and we’re trying to solve this problem together.
1:52:10 That mindset shift is incredibly powerful.
1:52:14 And the third thing I really took away from this.
1:52:19 Was just how much we’re putting on our teens
1:52:23 when it comes to self-regulating around video games,
1:52:25 which is something she mentioned casually.
1:52:27 And I had never really thought about it in this way, which is silly.
1:52:30 Because when I go to work, I usually leave my phone in a different room
1:52:34 if I need to concentrate.
1:52:36 And I do that because I’ve developed this physical solution
1:52:39 and environmental solution to this problem.
1:52:41 I don’t want to focus on my phone, I want to focus on work,
1:52:43 so I’m not going to have my phone with me.
1:52:45 I can’t even control my impulses around my phone,
1:52:48 which is exactly why I’m doing that.
1:52:49 Yet we expect our kids to be able to do that.
1:52:52 And I thought a little bit about the currency thing.
1:52:55 I’m going to have to chew on this a little bit.
1:52:57 I do that sort of in my worst moments, I guess,
1:53:00 where I’m like, you can have this, if you do this.
1:53:02 And I don’t think that’s the I want to get away from that as a parent.
1:53:06 So I hope you took away something super valuable from this conversation.
1:53:10 If you’re watching this on YouTube, leave a note below.
1:53:13 Let me know what the most valuable part was for you.
1:53:16 If you’re listening to it, send me an email, Shane@farnhamstreetblog.com
1:53:21 or and just let me know what you thought
1:53:24 was the most useful part of this conversation.
1:53:26 It’s something I want to explore more.
1:53:28 So if you have questions, let me know.
1:53:30 Hopefully I’ll talk to more people about this stuff.
1:53:32 And I really appreciate you listening.
1:53:34 And as you can tell, when I say let’s listen and learn,
1:53:37 it’s time to listen and learn.
1:53:39 You’re learning with me on this journey and I appreciate you.
1:53:43 Thanks for listening and learning with us for a complete list of episodes,
1:53:59 show notes, transcripts and more.
1:54:02 Go to fs.blog/podcast or just Google the knowledge project.
1:54:07 The Farnham Street blog is also where you can learn more about my new book,
1:54:11 “Clear Thinking – Turning Ordinary Moments into Extraordinary Results”.
1:54:15 It’s a transformative guide that hands you the tools to master your fate,
1:54:20 sharpen your decision making and set yourself up for unparalleled success.
1:54:25 Learn more at fs.blog/clear.
1:54:28 Until next time.
1:54:30 [Music]
1:54:41 (soft music)
1:54:44 [BLANK_AUDIO]
0:00:02 I mean, that’s like how I think about teens.
0:00:03 Like that’s what their job is.
0:00:04 Their job is to explore.
0:00:05 They’re trying to figure out who they are.
0:00:07 Their job is to go through this kind of identity formation phase.
0:00:10 And I also think a lot about like the difference
0:00:12 between like an explorer and a nomad.
0:00:15 And I feel like the big difference
0:00:16 is an explorer has a home base.
0:00:18 But what I always want parents of teens to know
0:00:21 is like your teen still needs you in the most intense way.
0:00:25 And they will come back.
0:00:27 They need to know you’re there, right?
0:00:28 Like knowing when you’re exploring
0:00:30 that your home base is there.
0:00:32 Like I think we all know feels very different
0:00:34 than checking for a home base
0:00:36 and feeling like it has dissolved, right?
0:00:38 And that to me says so much about the connection
0:00:40 of teens and parents during these really tricky years.
0:00:43 (upbeat music)
0:00:45 (upbeat music)
0:00:48 Welcome to The Knowledge Project,
0:01:01 a podcast about mastering the best
0:01:03 of what other people have already figured out
0:01:04 so you can apply their insights to your life.
0:01:07 I’m your host, Shane Parrish.
0:01:10 Every Sunday, I send out the brain food newsletter
0:01:12 to over 600,000 people.
0:01:14 It’s considered noise-canceling headphones
0:01:17 for the internet and is full of timeless wisdom
0:01:19 you can apply to life and work.
0:01:22 You can sign up for free at fs.blog/newsletter.
0:01:25 Check out the show notes for a link.
0:01:28 If you’re listening to this, you’re missing out.
0:01:29 If you’d like access to the podcast
0:01:31 before public release, special episodes
0:01:34 that don’t appear anywhere else,
0:01:35 hand-edited transcripts,
0:01:37 or you just want to support the show you love,
0:01:39 you can join at fs.blog/membership.
0:01:42 Check out the show notes for a link.
0:01:45 Today, my guest is clinical psychologist,
0:01:47 Dr. Becky Kennedy.
0:01:49 She’s simply known as Dr. Becky
0:01:51 to the millions of people around the world.
0:01:53 She’s the author of “Good Inside,”
0:01:55 a guide to becoming the parent you want to be.
0:01:58 In this conversation, we discuss the eight most important
0:02:01 words you can say to your partner or child
0:02:03 when they tell you anything that’s hard,
0:02:05 setting boundaries, effective apologizing,
0:02:09 regulating emotions, both our own
0:02:11 and teaching our kids how to do the same thing,
0:02:14 the importance and step-by-step guide
0:02:16 to repairing after a blow-up with your kids or partner,
0:02:20 addiction, specifically around kids and screens
0:02:23 and video games, building confidence and resiliency,
0:02:27 and so much more.
0:02:28 After re-listening to this conversation,
0:02:30 I was struck by just how much of what we talk about
0:02:34 applies to kids, partners, coworkers, and ourselves.
0:02:38 Stick around at the end for my reflections.
0:02:41 It’s time to listen and learn.
0:02:44 – Hear that, Codepaner fans?
0:02:51 That silence has two friends enjoying
0:02:54 the new creamy Parmesan and bacon Codepaner McDonald’s.
0:02:58 Because adding crispy bacon and creamy Parmesan sauce
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0:03:05 makes it impossible to have a conversation.
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0:03:13 and discover how words are so unnecessary
0:03:16 for a limited time only
0:03:17 at participating McDonald’s restaurants in Canada.
0:03:20 – If you’re on the road, you have a license plate,
0:03:23 but not every license plate supports our provincial parks.
0:03:26 Proceeds from BC Parks license plates
0:03:29 help conserve the beauty of nature
0:03:31 from the peaks of our mountains to the shores of our beaches.
0:03:35 – Adventure starts with a license plate.
0:03:38 Choose the one that gives back.
0:03:40 Discover how BC Parks license plates
0:03:42 help protect our parks at bcparks.ca/getinvolved.
0:03:47 A message from the government of British Columbia.
0:03:50 – Let’s start with a common term that we use as adults.
0:03:56 And as adults, we use with our kids,
0:03:59 but I don’t know if I have a really good understanding
0:04:02 of it, which is what is a boundary?
0:04:05 So here’s how I define a boundary
0:04:06 and I define it this way
0:04:08 because then it’s something I can actually assess
0:04:11 and I can know if I’m setting one or not.
0:04:13 So to me, a boundary is something we tell someone else,
0:04:17 we will do and it requires the other person to do nothing.
0:04:22 And so the reason I really, really like that definition
0:04:27 is because we can then afterwards say, okay,
0:04:30 well, the thing I did, did I tell someone what I will do?
0:04:34 And does it require the other person to do nothing?
0:04:36 And almost always we say, no, like I actually kind of
0:04:40 was asking my kid to clean up the clothes on their floor,
0:04:44 which is something we all have to do.
0:04:45 I would say that’s a request.
0:04:46 We make requests of our kids all the time,
0:04:49 but learning to really differentiate a request
0:04:51 from a boundary is critical.
0:04:53 And it saves us from the frustration
0:04:55 and the cycle of my kid doesn’t respect my boundary
0:04:58 or this person doesn’t respect my boundary.
0:04:59 And to me, the way I think about boundaries
0:05:01 is someone kind of quote might not respect my boundary,
0:05:04 but if I am setting a boundary
0:05:07 that is dependent on what I’m doing
0:05:09 and is not at all dependent on what someone else does,
0:05:12 then I really retain a lot of power
0:05:14 and I really like that perspective.
0:05:16 – So what would be an example of like a boundary
0:05:19 and a relationship that you have with your partner
0:05:22 or your spouse and a boundary you might have
0:05:25 with a teenager?
0:05:27 – Let’s start with like a moment of frustration.
0:05:28 Where for you Shane, like where are you frustrated
0:05:30 with the spouse or where do you hear you’re like,
0:05:32 oh, people tend to like get frustrated
0:05:33 and want to set boundaries in this way.
0:05:35 – People disagree on what to do on a Friday night.
0:05:38 – Great, that’s great.
0:05:39 Okay, so let’s say, you know,
0:05:42 I tend to be tired at the end of a week
0:05:45 and I want to go to bed early and my partner’s like,
0:05:48 but I really like to have dinner together
0:05:49 and I want to have time together,
0:05:51 but I’m so frustrated ’cause I’m like,
0:05:52 my husband comes home at like nine o’clock
0:05:54 and expects me to like cook dinner then with him
0:05:56 and all of a sudden it’s 10 and I’m exhausted
0:05:58 and I want to connect too, right?
0:06:00 But here’s the situation.
0:06:02 So I think what we might do is we might say,
0:06:04 I really needed to be home by seven.
0:06:06 Like can you get home on seven on a Friday
0:06:08 and then that’s a place where we could cook dinner together?
0:06:10 And then let’s say my husband rolls in at nine
0:06:12 and I’m like, what the heck?
0:06:14 Like I told him to have dinner at seven
0:06:16 and like he didn’t do it
0:06:17 and he never listens to me and he doesn’t respect me
0:06:19 and we tell ourselves all these stories.
0:06:20 To me, I would say in that situation,
0:06:22 I was making a request of my husband.
0:06:24 I was making a request.
0:06:25 And most of the time in our relationships, by the way,
0:06:28 we can’t always set boundaries.
0:06:29 Like we do make requests
0:06:30 and hopefully our relationship is strong enough
0:06:32 with someone which we can talk about
0:06:35 where they would, you know, when they can honor our request,
0:06:38 right?
0:06:39 But I’m making a request because the success is dependent
0:06:42 on my husband coming home at seven,
0:06:44 which he just did not do.
0:06:46 Here’s a very different approach,
0:06:48 which I don’t always recommend taking
0:06:50 but sometimes we have to take
0:06:51 if we feel like we keep getting in situations
0:06:55 where we’re kind of really unsatisfied.
0:06:56 I’d say, hey, the last couple of weeks
0:06:58 we talked about you getting home at seven
0:07:00 or trying to, you keep getting home at nine.
0:07:02 Look, I don’t want to end up in that place again
0:07:04 where then I get tired and I get resentful
0:07:06 and we get in this fight.
0:07:07 I just want to be very, very clear.
0:07:09 I would love to have dinner with you tonight.
0:07:10 I really would.
0:07:11 And I know for me, if you’re not home by seven,
0:07:13 cooking together and having that connected moment,
0:07:16 it just is not going to then happen
0:07:17 in a way that feels good to me.
0:07:19 So if you get home by seven tonight,
0:07:20 I’m so excited that we can have dinner together.
0:07:22 And if you come home at nine, I get it.
0:07:24 You will probably find me having already
0:07:27 had a bowl of cereal and then reading in my bed
0:07:29 and I won’t be able to make dinner.
0:07:32 And we can talk about it again next week.
0:07:34 So it’s literally laying out what I will do.
0:07:39 And then let’s say my husband does get home at nine.
0:07:41 I might still be upset.
0:07:42 I mean, I’d be like, this is such a bummer, you know?
0:07:44 But I’m not going to feel so resentful.
0:07:47 I’m not going to feel so angry
0:07:49 because I laid out two situations based on my needs.
0:07:53 And either way, I have kind of a path I can walk down
0:07:58 that’s within my control.
0:07:59 – It doesn’t require him to do anything,
0:08:01 but at the same time he has a choice.
0:08:04 – Yeah, and people say, well,
0:08:05 is that just threatening your husband to me?
0:08:08 We really underplay like our intention
0:08:11 and how that intention then gets really felt by someone.
0:08:13 Like I could say the same thing to my husband.
0:08:15 I could say, look, and if you’re not home by nine,
0:08:18 I mean, I mean, if you’re not home by seven,
0:08:21 you’re going to find me in bed
0:08:23 and I’m not gonna have dinner.
0:08:24 Like if I said it that way,
0:08:26 I feel like you would receive it as like,
0:08:27 are you threatening me?
0:08:29 Like what’s going on?
0:08:30 Right?
0:08:31 It’s very different than, hey, sweetie,
0:08:33 like I don’t know, maybe works crazy busy for you.
0:08:35 Like I can respect that too.
0:08:36 And if you do get home at nine,
0:08:38 I just want to be very clear I will be in bed
0:08:40 because I’m just exhausted by then and I can’t cook
0:08:42 and I don’t want to feel resentment toward you.
0:08:44 And so I need to be with my book at that time.
0:08:46 Probably going to fall asleep
0:08:48 and hopefully we can get time together
0:08:49 at another point in the weekend.
0:08:50 Like I think you feel such different intention there, right?
0:08:54 So to me, boundaries are not threats.
0:08:57 They’re actually an assertion
0:08:59 of your own wants and needs within your relationship.
0:09:02 I feel like in that way,
0:09:03 a boundary is a way of saying to someone,
0:09:05 here’s what I need to still feel good in our relationship.
0:09:08 I think that’s actually another way to think about it.
0:09:11 Where so many times people worry,
0:09:12 my boundary is gonna threaten my relationship,
0:09:14 maybe with my husband or I tell my mother-in-law,
0:09:16 oh, they can’t come over a certain day,
0:09:18 but boundaries are really a way of saying,
0:09:20 this is what I need to continue feeling good
0:09:22 in our relationship.
0:09:23 And in that way, it’s actually a way of inviting someone
0:09:27 to maintain closeness with you.
0:09:29 – I like that.
0:09:30 And I really like how you described it.
0:09:32 And I want to come back to that after,
0:09:33 but I want to hit maybe teens
0:09:35 and what would be a good one around screen time,
0:09:37 which is something that all parents deal with, I’m sure.
0:09:41 – Love this, okay.
0:09:42 So when we think we’re setting a boundary,
0:09:45 but we’re really making a request, it might sound like this.
0:09:49 Hey, you can go on Fortnite for,
0:09:51 I don’t even like to name the number of minutes
0:09:54 ’cause when I do people will also be like,
0:09:55 oh, my kid does more than that, is that bad?
0:09:57 But let’s just say X number of minutes, okay?
0:09:58 You can play Fortnite for X number of minutes.
0:10:00 And after that, I want you to turn it off
0:10:03 and come to the kitchen, okay?
0:10:05 Now, if you know video games and I know video games,
0:10:08 and if you know phones and I know phones,
0:10:10 the idea that your kid is going to be able to stop themselves
0:10:12 at a certain time is just probably setting everyone up
0:10:14 for failure, it’s just you get sucked in,
0:10:16 it’s not about willpower, it gets you addicted,
0:10:19 you’re in a game, and either way still,
0:10:21 I’m making a request, the success of what I just said
0:10:24 to my kid is dependent on them doing this.
0:10:27 If it’s so important for me, for my kid
0:10:30 to only play Fortnite for X number of minutes,
0:10:32 I could say one of two things.
0:10:34 Hey, I just wanted to be perfectly clear
0:10:36 about what will happen after X number of minutes.
0:10:39 If you’re still playing, and I really don’t want to do this,
0:10:43 I am going to come in, and I am going to take the remote,
0:10:47 and I am going to turn it off.
0:10:49 Like, I don’t want to get there, I’m sure you don’t either,
0:10:51 so maybe we should do the whole thing we talked about
0:10:53 where you said a timer five minutes before,
0:10:54 and you actually determine if you have time
0:10:56 for another game, so you’re not in the middle of it
0:10:57 when I turn it off, or maybe I say,
0:10:59 hey, I am going to use a new system,
0:11:01 I’m going to use this form of parental controls
0:11:03 where your iPad turns off at a certain number of minutes
0:11:06 with the five minute warning before,
0:11:08 and so at the end of that amount of time,
0:11:10 it is going to go off, I just wanted to let you know
0:11:12 what’s going to happen.
0:11:13 The success of what I just said is not dependent
0:11:16 on my teenager quote, listening to me.
0:11:19 My boundary is now totally within my control.
0:11:22 – I like that a lot, and I love the way
0:11:24 that you explain this to them.
0:11:26 How do you learn how to do that?
0:11:28 And both when you were talking to your fictional
0:11:32 sort of partner around, hey, I really want to have dinner
0:11:35 with you, if you’re not home at this time,
0:11:37 it probably means we’re not going to have dinner together,
0:11:39 I’m not going to be able to do that, you know.
0:11:41 How do you learn how to talk like that
0:11:43 if it’s not modeled for you as a child?
0:11:46 Like how do you as an adult learn
0:11:48 how to communicate in that way?
0:11:49 Which when you say it, that strikes me as so effective,
0:11:52 but whenever I want to talk about something
0:11:55 like this in my head, it never comes out that good.
0:11:57 – I love that question, and there’s a couple of ways
0:11:59 I want to answer it.
0:12:00 So first of all, to me inherent in your question
0:12:04 actually was like the idea of like learning in general.
0:12:08 I don’t know, we all learn a lot of stuff
0:12:09 by the time we’re adults that my guess is
0:12:11 is not inherent to us, right?
0:12:13 And most of the things we learn aren’t inherent,
0:12:15 it’s not actually inherent to learn how to swim.
0:12:17 Like if you don’t learn how to swim,
0:12:18 you’ll be an adult who can’t swim,
0:12:20 there’s plenty of adults who can’t swim,
0:12:21 it doesn’t just come to you with age.
0:12:22 I think actually that’s one of the most powerful things
0:12:24 I think about is like age does not teach skills, right?
0:12:27 People are like, at what point will my kid
0:12:30 no longer engage in X behavior at what age?
0:12:32 I’m like, well, what are you doing in these years?
0:12:34 You know, like either in this amount of time or never,
0:12:36 depending on what we do, right?
0:12:38 So just like you can teach someone to swim
0:12:40 or you can teach someone a new language,
0:12:42 like we can all learn more effective ways to communicate.
0:12:47 And it’s just in the realm of things
0:12:50 that we often don’t think of as a skill.
0:12:52 Like for some reason we think I should either
0:12:54 know how to do that or I’m not an effective communicator
0:12:57 but someone else should just get what I’m trying to say
0:13:00 instead of thinking, oh, like how could I learn this?
0:13:02 I think there’s a lot of practice that’s involved.
0:13:05 No, more concretely than that,
0:13:07 I think what you’re noticing in the way I modeled
0:13:10 those two kind of boundary setting situations,
0:13:12 first of all, let me just say like,
0:13:13 if you think I would actually say that
0:13:15 in the heat of the moment to my kids, like I would it,
0:13:17 like my husband’s like listening to this thing like,
0:13:19 can you please talk to me like that
0:13:21 because you don’t sound that nice.
0:13:22 So please listeners, do not think–
0:13:24 – He’s gonna leave a comment on YouTube.
0:13:26 – Like don’t think I do this all the time, okay?
0:13:29 But when we are kind of upset with someone
0:13:32 or have been frustrated with someone,
0:13:34 we have the tendency to approach them
0:13:36 in a very adversarial way.
0:13:38 And then how we think about someone
0:13:40 affects how we communicate to them.
0:13:42 So if I was like, my husband doesn’t respect me
0:13:44 and my husband cares more about work
0:13:46 than he does about my relationship,
0:13:47 then you know what I’m gonna say to him?
0:13:49 Hey, if you’re not home by seven,
0:13:51 just not gonna be waiting for you
0:13:54 because I have things to do in my life too, right?
0:13:56 Of course, because that’s the mindset I’m in.
0:13:59 And I think this is such a general point
0:14:00 and I’ll share it because I think it’s applicable
0:14:03 to every life situation
0:14:05 that when you’re in conflict with someone,
0:14:07 you’re in one of two mindsets
0:14:08 and I’m a very visual person, so explain it visually.
0:14:11 You’re either sitting on one side of the table
0:14:14 and you’re looking at them
0:14:15 as if they’re sitting on the other side of the table,
0:14:17 kind of how I’m looking at you.
0:14:19 And I’m looking at you like you are the problem.
0:14:22 And so I’m on one side of the table,
0:14:24 you’re on the other side of the table
0:14:25 and I’m looking at you like you are the problem.
0:14:28 Okay, the other mindset we can be in
0:14:31 is I’m on one side of the table
0:14:34 and let’s say Shane, you’re sitting next to me
0:14:37 on the same side of the table
0:14:40 and together we are looking at a problem.
0:14:44 I actually think this is like profound
0:14:46 because to me, nobody should ever communicate with anybody
0:14:49 until you get yourself in that second mindset.
0:14:52 We often think, what are the words?
0:14:54 What do I say?
0:14:54 What’s the script?
0:14:56 At the end of the day, the mindset’s gonna win, right?
0:14:58 Or the script won’t be effective
0:15:00 because you’re in an adversarial mindset
0:15:02 and the person will feel that, right?
0:15:04 And so I think the kind of biggest skill
0:15:08 is recognizing what mindset am I in.
0:15:10 And I think we have a lot of clues to that.
0:15:11 Like even when we start to think about the person
0:15:14 we wanna talk to,
0:15:15 we can even notice the language we’re using, right?
0:15:17 Like, oh, my husband doesn’t respect me.
0:15:19 He’s always at work.
0:15:20 Like he doesn’t even care about our relationship.
0:15:21 I definitely know what mindset I’m in, right?
0:15:24 If I’m in the second mindset,
0:15:25 I’d probably be saying like,
0:15:27 wow, he’s really overloaded at work
0:15:29 and I miss him, right?
0:15:32 Maybe I say that, I’ve really missed my husband.
0:15:34 I wonder if I’ve ever told him that.
0:15:35 That’s very much like,
0:15:36 me and my husband are on the same side of the table
0:15:39 and we’re kind of looking at the problem of,
0:15:42 you know, not being as connected as we used to be.
0:15:45 Kind of like, now all of a sudden,
0:15:47 also I feel different in that mindset.
0:15:48 Like I honestly feel sad just saying that to you right now.
0:15:50 Like, oh, it stinks.
0:15:52 And maybe my husband feels that way.
0:15:53 Maybe he’s not even aware that he feels that way,
0:15:55 but maybe he does.
0:15:56 And maybe he’s nervous about his job
0:15:58 and he feels like he’s gonna get fired
0:15:59 and he thinks he’s gonna let me down
0:16:00 if he does that ’cause he’s the breadwinner.
0:16:02 I’m making these things up.
0:16:03 But when I’m in a me and you against a problem mindset,
0:16:08 we communicate completely differently.
0:16:10 Same with our teen, right?
0:16:12 Like me versus you and a simple thing could be,
0:16:15 you never pick up the towel.
0:16:16 Like how many times do I tell you to pick up a towel?
0:16:17 Like you see the towel on the ground.
0:16:20 Like just pick it up and put it in your bathroom,
0:16:22 hang it up versus, hey, look,
0:16:25 we both know towels on the floor.
0:16:27 Like we both know that’s not where they go.
0:16:29 And you’re a responsible kid.
0:16:31 Like and I know you have heard what I’ve said.
0:16:35 So there must be something getting in your way of remembering.
0:16:37 Like there must be.
0:16:39 ‘Cause I don’t think you look at the towel
0:16:40 and think I’m gonna piss off my mom.
0:16:41 Like I really don’t think that’s happening.
0:16:42 So can we figure this out together?
0:16:44 Like what would make it easier for you to remember?
0:16:47 Like I actually had this
0:16:48 with my own, my 12 year old son recently.
0:16:50 And he’s like, mom, it’s so funny.
0:16:51 I walk out of my room.
0:16:52 I don’t even see the towel.
0:16:53 Like I don’t even see it.
0:16:54 Like I guess I drop it and then I don’t even see it.
0:16:56 And I was like, oh, that’s really interesting.
0:16:57 What do you see?
0:16:58 I just said, I mean, I just see the wall
0:17:00 and I see my door.
0:17:02 And I was like, oh, that actually gives me an idea.
0:17:04 I don’t know if it gives you the same idea.
0:17:05 Like what would you need to jog your memory?
0:17:07 And he goes, I mean, I guess I could just like
0:17:08 put up a post on my door that says pick up my towel.
0:17:11 I know it sounds so silly, but like I could cry.
0:17:14 And I was like, that’s an amazing idea.
0:17:15 Like, and he did it.
0:17:16 And he just like, he did it.
0:17:17 He literally just like wrote in his old handwriting
0:17:19 ’cause he’s 12 and I don’t have to do that for him.
0:17:20 And he put it on his door.
0:17:21 And does he pick it up every time?
0:17:23 He just not.
0:17:24 Does he pick it up massively more often?
0:17:26 Yes.
0:17:27 But the only way we get there is
0:17:29 by kind of assuming good intent, being on the same team.
0:17:32 And together we were kind of looking at this towel
0:17:34 on the floor problem versus me looking at my son.
0:17:38 I have like, he’s an asshole who is the problem.
0:17:41 Yeah, it’s kind of like you’re not doing what I want.
0:17:43 Therefore we’re in this adversarial situation.
0:17:47 But I don’t see what’s going on inside you, right?
0:17:51 I don’t see, you know, the partner at work
0:17:54 who’s worried about their job
0:17:55 ’cause these are all things that are sort of inside somebody
0:17:58 that aren’t communicated.
0:17:59 And for kids and teens, especially,
0:18:02 I would imagine they’re going through so much already
0:18:04 in life with school, with friends, with their body changes.
0:18:09 And we don’t see any of that.
0:18:11 We’re just like, why can’t you pick up a towel?
0:18:13 Like, what’s wrong with you?
0:18:13 That’s right.
0:18:14 But there’s nothing wrong with them, right?
0:18:16 Yeah.
0:18:16 And, you know, I think there’s so much more there too.
0:18:19 Like my son probably doesn’t care about his towel
0:18:20 on the floor.
0:18:21 And I don’t know if something so bad
0:18:22 gonna happen if his towel is on the floor.
0:18:24 It’s probably not.
0:18:25 Like, I don’t think the world’s gonna end.
0:18:26 I don’t think his, you know, room is gonna be ruined.
0:18:28 It just is my preference.
0:18:29 And so really we’re saying,
0:18:32 well, why would my kid start caring about something
0:18:34 he doesn’t care about?
0:18:36 And his mom does care about.
0:18:38 And that actually has everything to do
0:18:40 with just kind of the strength of our relationship
0:18:42 in that moment.
0:18:43 And, you know, it’s kind of why any of us do things
0:18:45 we don’t wanna do, but other people care about
0:18:48 because we just feel close to them.
0:18:49 And like, we like, you know,
0:18:50 taking care of their needs sometimes, right?
0:18:54 And so, so much of that and approaching a teen in that,
0:18:56 like, hey, I respect you.
0:18:58 Like, here’s the situation.
0:18:59 Let’s think through it together.
0:19:01 That’s the only way you’re gonna get
0:19:02 to a productive solution anyway,
0:19:04 because teenagers inherently,
0:19:05 they don’t care about their towel on the floor.
0:19:06 They don’t care about their messy room.
0:19:08 They don’t care about, you know,
0:19:09 being on their phones longer than we want them to be.
0:19:12 And so the status of our relationship with our kids
0:19:15 and our partner, it’s really cordial, like everything.
0:19:18 – Parenting teens is tricky.
0:19:20 I’m just, what are the indications
0:19:24 that you have a really strong relationship with your teen?
0:19:27 And what are the indications that it’s going the wrong way
0:19:31 and you should probably intervene before it gets really bad?
0:19:35 – That’s a good question.
0:19:36 You know, my first reaction,
0:19:38 like the loudest thing in my mind,
0:19:40 I think a lot of parents have a sense of like how they’re,
0:19:43 like they just have like an inherent sense of like,
0:19:45 how close am I to my teen, how are things going?
0:19:48 You know, I guess in one way,
0:19:50 it feels like every interaction is a ton of conflict.
0:19:52 It’s just like a series of misunderstanding.
0:19:54 And I think that doesn’t feel great to either.
0:19:56 I guess in the middle is like,
0:19:57 well, we don’t have any over conflict,
0:19:59 but like, do we talk about things?
0:20:01 Like, do I know about the things that are going on
0:20:03 in their life?
0:20:04 Would they come to me if they were struggling?
0:20:08 Would they come to me if they were struggling with something
0:20:11 that they worry could quote, get them in trouble?
0:20:14 Right?
0:20:16 You know, I think, I think a lot about attachment
0:20:19 in relationships, right?
0:20:20 Not attachment parenting,
0:20:21 but the idea that how kids attach to connect to their
0:20:26 caregivers, their parents really forms the foundation
0:20:29 for a lot of different things in their life,
0:20:30 for how they’re able to regulate emotions,
0:20:32 for how they think about themselves,
0:20:35 for how they build confidence and resilience.
0:20:37 Actually, the model they take into adulthood
0:20:39 about what a healthy relationship is, right?
0:20:43 There’s so many things.
0:20:45 And when our kids are teens,
0:20:48 what’s really, really tricky is,
0:20:51 you know, they’re like explorers in the world.
0:20:52 I mean, that’s like how I think about teens.
0:20:54 Like that’s what their job is.
0:20:55 Their job is to explore.
0:20:56 They’re trying to figure out who they are.
0:20:57 Their job is to go through this kind of identity formation
0:21:00 phase.
0:21:01 And as we remember, when we were younger,
0:21:04 the way you start to form your identity when you’re a teen
0:21:07 is actually through a lot of separation from your parents.
0:21:09 That’s actually though your job.
0:21:10 Your job is actually to start to separate from them.
0:21:14 And a lot of teens, most teens, they overshoot.
0:21:17 Just like we did.
0:21:18 But you have to kind of overshoot distance
0:21:20 to be like, I am nothing like my parent.
0:21:21 And if my parent tells me a rule,
0:21:23 the quickest way to figure out my own person
0:21:26 is to just like reject it.
0:21:27 Even if it makes sense for me.
0:21:28 It’s just like, you know, you kind of overshoot.
0:21:31 But if I go back to the idea of like teens being explorers,
0:21:35 ’cause they do, they try out so many things.
0:21:36 They kind of need to explore away
0:21:38 from their home country, right?
0:21:40 I also think a lot about like the difference
0:21:43 between like an explorer and a nomad.
0:21:45 And I feel like the big difference
0:21:48 is an explorer has a home base.
0:21:50 And I have the chills as I say that.
0:21:51 Like they have a home base to come back to.
0:21:53 And just knowing they have a home base
0:21:55 gives them a lot of confidence in their exploration.
0:21:58 Or a nomad, it doesn’t really have a home base.
0:22:02 And when I think about teens and parents,
0:22:04 I think a lot about that.
0:22:05 Like a teen’s job is to explore.
0:22:07 A parent’s kind of in the home country.
0:22:09 Like also feeling lost a lot.
0:22:11 Like where’s my kid who like used to want to talk to me more.
0:22:13 Who used to like be around more.
0:22:16 I used to be their primary focus.
0:22:18 But what I always want parents of teens to know
0:22:22 is like your teen still needs you in the most intense way.
0:22:26 Because they cannot be a nomad in life.
0:22:28 Like that is not what they’re looking for.
0:22:30 And they will come back.
0:22:32 They need to know you’re there, right?
0:22:33 Like knowing when you’re exploring
0:22:35 that your home base is there.
0:22:37 Like I think we all know feels very different
0:22:39 than checking for a home base
0:22:41 and feeling like it has dissolved, right?
0:22:43 And that to me says so much about the connection
0:22:46 of teens and parents during these really tricky years.
0:22:48 – As you were saying that,
0:22:49 I just had this thought that maybe it’s weird,
0:22:52 but I want to check this with you.
0:22:54 I’m home every day when my kids get home from school.
0:22:57 I have been since they were in elementary school,
0:23:00 I’d do the same thing now that they’re basically
0:23:02 in high school, much to their dismay, right?
0:23:07 This is like, and you were talking
0:23:09 and you were like, they have to be away from their parents.
0:23:11 They have to get this time away.
0:23:13 And so when they come home from school, it’s like, I’m there.
0:23:16 And is that a good thing or a bad thing?
0:23:18 Or like, how do you think about that?
0:23:20 – I mean, I don’t think it’s a good thing or a bad thing.
0:23:22 First of all, they’re away from you.
0:23:23 They’re in school, they have their whole world, you know?
0:23:25 And so I think that’s a lot of the ways they start to explore.
0:23:29 And kids also, by the way, they explore in their thoughts.
0:23:31 They explore by engaging and listening to music
0:23:34 that their parents hate
0:23:35 or entertaining ideas, right?
0:23:37 So it doesn’t just have to be physical separation.
0:23:40 I feel mixed about a parent who’s always there.
0:23:43 First of all, parents are like, I’m at work,
0:23:45 I’m not there, am I messing up my kids?
0:23:46 No, I frankly, often at my office,
0:23:49 when my kids come home, there’s not one right way.
0:23:52 I think it’s a dance, you know?
0:23:53 And I think about this a lot with my own childhood.
0:23:55 And I’ve talked about this a lot with my mom
0:23:57 because we mom in very different ways,
0:23:59 like I do now when she did then, she was always there.
0:24:02 Like I feel like she was someone who was always there, right?
0:24:05 And like down to, I remember days in like middle school
0:24:08 or high school, even when I was older,
0:24:10 I was like, oh, I forgot the lunch I wanted at home.
0:24:12 And she’d be like, I am driving it to you right now, you know?
0:24:15 Like it was just always there.
0:24:17 And one of the things we reflected on a lot together,
0:24:19 and it actually kind of relates to confidence
0:24:21 so we can bring it all together as always happens,
0:24:25 is I feel like I could have benefited a little more
0:24:30 from like, mom’s not available right now.
0:24:33 And kind of like, and I know like not having my lunch
0:24:36 is just one example, it’s a tiny example,
0:24:38 but even that small example, like I know I would have been like,
0:24:40 oh, I guess I have to go to the cafeteria
0:24:42 and I guess I have to like find something or I don’t know,
0:24:44 maybe I would have remembered to like pack it the next day,
0:24:46 like in even, you know, bigger way
0:24:48 because I don’t want to have that happen again.
0:24:50 I think on the other side, right?
0:24:52 Especially as kids get older,
0:24:53 it’s so easy to do what I call like taking the bait
0:24:56 from teens, like you don’t understand me
0:24:59 and I don’t want to be with you anymore.
0:25:00 I just want to be my friends and get your own life
0:25:02 and get out of my room.
0:25:03 And parents are like, I guess my kids don’t care.
0:25:05 So like, I’ll never be home when they’re home.
0:25:07 And, you know, they slam the door on my face.
0:25:10 And so it’s on them to like, you know, say something to me
0:25:13 and I’m going to kind of give them the silent treatment
0:25:15 till they do both extremes, I think can like any extremes
0:25:19 can like hold kids back, you know?
0:25:21 And I think we want to give kids at every age room
0:25:25 to like be on their own and kind of the trust in that.
0:25:28 And I think it’s benefit so much from that distance,
0:25:32 but they only benefit from that distance
0:25:36 when they kind of have internalized
0:25:38 and still kind of have access most times
0:25:41 to that kind of secure base.
0:25:43 So I’m not trying to get out of the question,
0:25:45 but I really do think it’s this dance.
0:25:47 Because if I think about my own childhood
0:25:49 and I think about like, I feel like my secure base
0:25:51 is with me all the time.
0:25:52 And as I got older, it was like, well, is that me?
0:25:55 Was that my parents?
0:25:56 Like, I think it took me longer to trust myself.
0:25:58 Even now, amidst uncertainty and struggle,
0:26:01 it’s still something I work on with myself
0:26:03 because I feel like I did almost have this system
0:26:07 so close all the time that I probably didn’t learn
0:26:11 to like trust myself, that I could really figure things out
0:26:14 and get through things in a way
0:26:17 that could have been really helpful to me.
0:26:19 – So that leads naturally into sort of confidence
0:26:22 and specifically resiliency.
0:26:24 What can we do as parents of teenagers
0:26:28 to build that resiliency?
0:26:29 Other, I mean, obviously giving our kids room to fail
0:26:33 and opportunities to struggle.
0:26:35 Aside from that, what is it that we can do?
0:26:38 And like, are there specific things that we can do
0:26:40 that you’re like, oh, this is a great way
0:26:42 to let your 14 or 15 year old fail or struggle or?
0:26:47 – I mean, I think there are kind of very,
0:26:49 very related concepts, you know, confidence and resilience.
0:26:52 But I’ll start with kind of framing up confidence
0:26:55 because I think the way I think about it is a little different.
0:26:57 And again, if we’re ever trying to build a trait,
0:26:59 I think we have to be like so clear about what the trait is
0:27:02 or else we’re gonna be building something
0:27:03 in a direction that might not be so productive.
0:27:05 – Well, let’s define them both then,
0:27:07 confidence and resiliency, yeah.
0:27:08 – So to me, confidence, I think people think about confidence
0:27:11 as like feeling good about yourself.
0:27:12 And like, I think that could not be further
0:27:14 for what confidence is.
0:27:16 To me, confidence is self-trust,
0:27:18 which I think is very different
0:27:20 from feeling good about yourself.
0:27:21 And in a related way, you know,
0:27:25 I think often like, confidence isn’t feeling
0:27:27 like the best at something.
0:27:29 It’s feeling like it’s okay to be you
0:27:31 when you’re not the best at something.
0:27:33 And it’s like trusting yourself in those moments.
0:27:35 So like I said to you earlier,
0:27:38 I don’t like to have ideas about actionable strategies
0:27:40 ’cause I can’t operate that way.
0:27:41 So let’s like play out some situations, right?
0:27:44 And I think this will drive it home.
0:27:46 So your kid comes home and they’re like,
0:27:48 I’m the only one of my friends
0:27:49 who didn’t make the football team.
0:27:50 I don’t know making this up, right?
0:27:52 I’m the only one of my friends.
0:27:52 It’s so embarrassing.
0:27:53 I’m the only one who didn’t make the football team.
0:27:55 And I think we think that like what we need to say
0:27:57 to our kid there or what they’re looking for,
0:27:59 or even like, I want to build my kid’s confidence.
0:28:02 They seem so not confident now.
0:28:03 ‘Cause they’re like, I’m the only one who didn’t make it.
0:28:05 I stink.
0:28:06 And like, you know, is, well, like,
0:28:09 you’re the only one who made varsity basketball.
0:28:12 You know, they all made JV.
0:28:13 And like, you’re the only one who was on varsity basketball.
0:28:15 Or like, you’re an honors math.
0:28:16 And, you know, we like say these things like that.
0:28:19 And if we think about confidence as self-trust,
0:28:22 then if we break down that situation,
0:28:23 that kid is coming to us saying,
0:28:24 I feel sad and disappointed.
0:28:26 And we’re saying to them, no, you don’t, right?
0:28:31 And I’m an imagery person, as you can see.
0:28:34 So to me, this idea of like the feelings bench
0:28:37 really, really like brings us to life
0:28:40 and gets really concrete and palpable for parents
0:28:42 to use then in their home.
0:28:44 So our kids, you know, are feeling down like they often do.
0:28:47 You know, they didn’t get a good grade in a test
0:28:49 or someone broke up with them
0:28:50 or now their friends dating the person that they liked
0:28:52 or they didn’t make the football team
0:28:53 or, you know, they’re gels to their brother
0:28:55 who’s, you know, always doing XYZ and they can’t,
0:28:58 whatever it is.
0:28:59 And to me, the image I want parents to think about
0:29:01 is like, my kid in life is like in a garden
0:29:04 that’s full of benches.
0:29:05 That’s like life, okay, is in this metaphor.
0:29:07 And in this moment, they’re sitting on the bench of,
0:29:10 and I don’t know, maybe this is the bench of
0:29:11 I didn’t make the football team.
0:29:13 Or maybe if we generalize,
0:29:14 it’s the bench of something didn’t go my way
0:29:16 or I’m disappointed or I’m embarrassed.
0:29:19 You know, probably all of those things come up.
0:29:21 And they’re sitting on that bench.
0:29:22 And as parents, we often have two urges.
0:29:24 One is one I named.
0:29:25 We kind of tell them their bench isn’t their bench, right?
0:29:28 Or we like see a sunnier bench in the garden.
0:29:31 It’s like the bench of, well, you made varsity basketball
0:29:34 and we’re like, just come, like come with me, right?
0:29:37 Just come with me to that bench ’cause it’s sunnier.
0:29:39 But that does a couple of very unintended things to kids.
0:29:43 Number one, they have a feeling of being disappointed.
0:29:47 The feelings already registered in their body.
0:29:49 And when kids are young,
0:29:50 they’re actually just learning about their feelings.
0:29:51 They’re like, am I allowed to have certain feelings?
0:29:53 How do I cope with certain feelings?
0:29:55 And a lot of how they learn that
0:29:56 is through their relationship with us.
0:29:58 And then they actually take those lessons into adulthood.
0:30:00 And so when our kids feeling disappointed,
0:30:03 one of the things they learn
0:30:04 when we kind of tell them their bench isn’t their bench
0:30:07 or tell them they should be on some other bench is like,
0:30:08 oh, I guess I’m not supposed to feel disappointed.
0:30:11 And they also learn this feeling
0:30:12 that feels very overwhelming to me.
0:30:14 Like it’s actually very overwhelming to my parent.
0:30:16 Like they don’t even want me to feel this way.
0:30:17 I guess it’s dangerous.
0:30:18 Like I guess I shouldn’t feel that way.
0:30:21 Now, I don’t think either of us know any adult in life
0:30:24 who’s gotten rid of disappointment.
0:30:25 Like you’re going to feel disappointed when you lose a job.
0:30:28 You’re going to feel disappointed
0:30:29 when someone breaks up with you
0:30:30 and you’re even you’re going to feel disappointed
0:30:32 when your flight has a delay, right?
0:30:33 And how you cope with those things doesn’t start in adulthood.
0:30:36 How you cope with those things comes from your history
0:30:39 of how you learned to cope with those things
0:30:41 in your earliest years
0:30:42 when you were wiring circuitry around your emotions
0:30:47 in your body.
0:30:48 And so the reason so many adults have so many difficulties
0:30:52 regulating their emotions in their older
0:30:53 actually comes from these early years.
0:30:56 So if we go back to what is far superior, right?
0:30:59 Or not far superior, it feels judgmental.
0:31:01 If we go back to what I would encourage a parent to do,
0:31:03 not only to build coping skills and resilience
0:31:05 but also confidence, okay?
0:31:07 As I think about three lines
0:31:09 and I’m going to be super concrete to me.
0:31:10 These are three lines that like parents should like write down.
0:31:14 They should like commit to memory.
0:31:16 They should also use it their partners
0:31:17 because they’re just good relationship lines.
0:31:19 When someone tells you something disappointing,
0:31:21 like I didn’t make the football team sucks.
0:31:22 I’m so embarrassed.
0:31:23 I’m the worst football player.
0:31:24 Number one, just I am so glad you’re talking to me about this.
0:31:28 Like it is the most beautiful first line
0:31:31 to say to someone when they’re upset
0:31:32 because what you’re deeply saying to them
0:31:34 and how they receive it is like I am interested
0:31:37 in the part of you who’s feeling this way.
0:31:39 The part of you who’s feeling this way is connectable to me.
0:31:42 Like I want to hear more about it.
0:31:43 I will attach to this part of you.
0:31:47 And when you tell that to someone,
0:31:48 they’re automatically willing to tell you more
0:31:52 because it’s like an opening of a door.
0:31:53 Like I imagine someone went to a boss
0:31:55 and they were like, I really feel like I deserve a promotion.
0:31:57 If the boss like, I’m so glad you’re talking to me about this.
0:31:59 Like even if the boss says no,
0:32:01 like you’re going to be like, wow,
0:32:02 that was a great conversation, you know?
0:32:04 So, and when you’re doing that,
0:32:05 what I want parents to imagine is like,
0:32:07 you’re just sitting on the bench next to your kid.
0:32:09 That’s literally what you’re doing.
0:32:10 You’re just sitting down.
0:32:12 You’re not saying that bench is in their bench.
0:32:14 You’re not taking them out.
0:32:15 You’re just sitting down.
0:32:16 And then the second line
0:32:18 that I think is the ultimate confidence builder
0:32:20 if confidence is self-trust is just, I believe you.
0:32:24 Yeah, I went to the list and my name wasn’t on it.
0:32:26 And like they literally were all high-fiving
0:32:28 and then I was like the only one not, you know,
0:32:32 not doing that.
0:32:33 And they all looked at me with such pity
0:32:34 and it was like the worst day of my life.
0:32:36 I believe you.
0:32:37 When you say I believe you to someone,
0:32:39 you’re not saying I agree.
0:32:40 That was the worst day of your life.
0:32:42 You’re literally just saying,
0:32:43 I believe the things you’re telling me.
0:32:44 I believe your feelings are valid and real.
0:32:47 And then the third line is just tell me more.
0:32:49 And I think often with parents, they’ll say like, okay,
0:32:52 and then what, and then what?
0:32:56 And I love this question and I’m such like a fixer too.
0:33:00 But like, and then nothing.
0:33:02 And then you’ve done,
0:33:04 you have literally crushed parenting that moment.
0:33:07 You should be like, I’m done for the rest of the day.
0:33:08 Might eat bonbons and watch some Netflix.
0:33:10 I just, and you massively built your kid’s confidence
0:33:14 because if we think about kids when they’re older,
0:33:18 you want kids when they’re feeling tricky things
0:33:20 to be like, yeah, I really do feel this way.
0:33:22 I really am upset that my partner said that thing to me.
0:33:25 I really am disappointed that I didn’t get that job, right?
0:33:29 I really am angry that I was promised, you know,
0:33:33 I don’t know a raise and didn’t get it, right?
0:33:35 Learning that you can trust your emotions
0:33:38 actually is the core of how you regulate your emotions
0:33:41 and how you make good decisions
0:33:42 because you can use your energy around, okay,
0:33:44 what do I do next instead of all the energy
0:33:46 of like trying to figure out what’s going on inside you.
0:33:48 And so to me, that’s really what confidence is.
0:33:51 And because if someone can feel like their parents
0:33:55 are able to tolerate their disappointment,
0:33:57 then what the kid really learns is like,
0:34:01 I can still be me when I’m disappointed.
0:34:02 I’m still like a valuable person.
0:34:04 This feeling clearly is like an acceptable part of me.
0:34:06 It’s not all of me.
0:34:07 I don’t have to fight to get rid of it.
0:34:09 That’s really how we build confidence.
0:34:11 – One common thing that I see with my kids
0:34:15 and I’m sure other kids, and it drives me insane.
0:34:18 There’s like a few triggers I have
0:34:21 and one of them is laziness.
0:34:23 And the other is sort of in that situation,
0:34:26 I’ll relate it to sort of like they come home,
0:34:28 they get a bad score on a test or an assignment
0:34:31 and they blame something exterior to themselves.
0:34:37 The teacher didn’t communicate clearly.
0:34:40 I saved the document, but it didn’t save my edits.
0:34:45 And it’s absolving them of sort of responsibility
0:34:49 and fault in that moment.
0:34:51 And how do we deal with that as parents?
0:34:54 Where it’s like, ’cause that trait, that single trait,
0:34:57 if it takes root, can be so detrimental in life
0:35:02 where you become a victim of circumstance
0:35:04 instead of the master of your circumstances.
0:35:07 – I’m so big on personal responsibility too.
0:35:10 And so that’s like triggering for me too
0:35:12 from like a personal standpoint, so I join you in that.
0:35:15 So I think first, and I always think this is true,
0:35:17 like we have to understand before we intervene.
0:35:20 Like that to me, every workshop I do,
0:35:22 that’s like about problem behaviors or sleep or, you know,
0:35:26 rudeness, like that’s always the first section.
0:35:28 And parents, it’s always so interesting
0:35:29 ’cause they’ll take this workshop and they’ll say,
0:35:31 “Oh my goodness, like everything feels better in my home.”
0:35:33 And I’m like, “I don’t even get to the strategies yet.”
0:35:35 Because we underestimate how many of our issues
0:35:38 with our kids or any relationship
0:35:40 actually comes from not understanding.
0:35:41 And as soon as we understand something, it’s amazing.
0:35:43 It’s like we immediately feel better.
0:35:45 So I think first, it’s like, “Well, why is my son doing that?”
0:35:48 Why is he saying, “Well, it didn’t save.”
0:35:50 Or, “Well, the teachers asked all these questions
0:35:52 that they said wouldn’t even be on the test.”
0:35:54 Right, they say something like that, right?
0:35:56 And I think it’s really important to get curious there.
0:35:57 Like, why would my kid do that?
0:36:00 And to me, the reason, like everything I do,
0:36:02 the company, the membership, is called Good Inside,
0:36:05 is ’cause to me, that’s like the principle
0:36:06 that allows us to be curious about our kids.
0:36:08 Our kids are good inside.
0:36:09 So why would my good kid
0:36:11 kind of like totally share responsibility?
0:36:13 And it’s really separating who they are from their identity,
0:36:16 they’re a good kid, from certain behavior,
0:36:19 which is something that happened, right?
0:36:21 When we are most frustrated with our kids,
0:36:23 it’s because we’ve collapsed the two.
0:36:25 My kid is just kind of like a shitty kid
0:36:27 who doesn’t take undersensibility
0:36:28 versus I have a good kid who is struggling with something.
0:36:31 So I think one of the best ways
0:36:33 I can be curious about my kids is I’m like,
0:36:35 “Well, why would I do that?
0:36:36 Why would I be in a situation where instead of being like,
0:36:39 “Oh my goodness, I was late and I should have left earlier,”
0:36:41 I was like, “You’ve no idea about the traffic
0:36:42 and you’ve no idea about the car in front of me.
0:36:45 Oh my goodness,” right?
0:36:46 So I’m just making this up now.
0:36:48 But oddly enough, I think I would do that
0:36:50 when I felt so bad.
0:36:53 I felt both simultaneously like so guilty
0:36:57 and so unable to tolerate that guilt.
0:37:02 And this is actually gonna circle back
0:37:03 to the idea of separating identity and behavior.
0:37:06 Oddly enough, kids tend to shirk responsibility
0:37:11 and kind of seem unwilling to reflect on their role of things
0:37:15 when they equate a certain outcome
0:37:18 with kind of being an indication of who they are.
0:37:22 So let me say that in a better way that’s clearer.
0:37:25 So if your son thinks like, “Let’s say I got like a,
0:37:28 “whatever it is, a 70 on this test.”
0:37:30 If when he gets a 70, what happens inside him
0:37:33 is like, “I’m so stupid, I can’t believe
0:37:34 “like I got a 70 in math.”
0:37:36 That will make him tell the story
0:37:38 while my teacher asked about things that were unfair
0:37:40 because he can’t tolerate the idea
0:37:41 that he’s like a stupid kid in math.
0:37:43 Nobody can tolerate that idea.
0:37:45 And actually, so the first step is like
0:37:47 trying to help our kids separate.
0:37:48 Wait, like you’re a good smart kid
0:37:49 who clearly like got a not so great thing,
0:37:52 great on their test, right?
0:37:53 And when we’re able to separate who we are
0:37:56 from what we do, we’re actually remarkably able
0:37:58 to take responsibility for our behavior
0:38:00 because it’s no longer an indication of our identity.
0:38:04 So, okay, if that’s part of the understanding,
0:38:05 I know for me in my mind, I’m like, “Hey, so what do I do?”
0:38:07 Like I don’t understand what to do.
0:38:09 In that moment, what strikes me
0:38:12 is what’s happening for our kid is actually shame.
0:38:14 That’s what’s happening.
0:38:15 A kid feels ashamed.
0:38:16 Shame is actually when we use our behavior
0:38:18 as an indication of our identity.
0:38:19 It just all collapsed.
0:38:20 It’s like this bad thing means I’m a bad person.
0:38:23 And the hardest thing about shame when it’s present,
0:38:26 and I write about this in the book,
0:38:27 is like you have to change your goal.
0:38:29 And it’s like, it’s so frustrating.
0:38:30 ‘Cause if that’s my kid, what I want to say to him
0:38:32 is, okay, stop saying that, just stop saying that.
0:38:34 Like, okay, maybe that’s true,
0:38:36 but like some kids did well in the test
0:38:37 and like you probably could have studied.
0:38:39 You probably could have gone to the teacher before
0:38:41 and asked a few questions.
0:38:42 And like, if you keep saying that, you’ll never learn.
0:38:44 Like you just want to like lecture.
0:38:45 You want to like just get through it.
0:38:48 The thing about shame is it’s a freeze response.
0:38:51 It’s like an animal defense state.
0:38:53 Like we talk a lot about fight or flight,
0:38:54 but there’s other animal defense states too, right?
0:38:57 And one of them is freeze, right?
0:38:59 And so if someone’s frozen,
0:39:01 you can’t like get them out of that
0:39:03 until it started to thaw a little bit.
0:39:06 And so as a parent, instead of trying to go through it,
0:39:09 your only goal in the moment,
0:39:10 and this is gonna be like remarkably ungratifying,
0:39:12 I’m just warning you,
0:39:14 is to have to de-shame the moment first.
0:39:16 You have to switch your goal
0:39:18 from getting through to your kid and teaching a lesson
0:39:20 to lowering shame.
0:39:22 So your kid is actually in a place
0:39:25 where they’re unfrozen, at which point they can learn.
0:39:28 So if that’s my kid,
0:39:30 I’m gonna tell you what I would do,
0:39:31 except again, like, I don’t know if I’d really do this,
0:39:33 but the ideal Becky would do this.
0:39:35 My kid says this to me.
0:39:37 I’d probably say in the moment,
0:39:39 I hate when that happens.
0:39:41 Oh, that’s the worst, right?
0:39:44 ‘Cause I even think about me.
0:39:45 If I showed up for this podcast with you late, Shane,
0:39:48 I was like, you’ve no idea about traffic.
0:39:50 Oh my goodness.
0:39:51 Oh my goodness, it was so bad.
0:39:52 And my commute was awful.
0:39:53 If you’re like, that is the worst.
0:39:56 Oh, I have that happen to me once too.
0:39:58 I really do think the next thing I would say to you
0:40:01 would be like, I’m sorry, I should have left earlier.
0:40:04 Where if you’re like, I mean, Becky, look,
0:40:07 we only have a little bit of time and like,
0:40:09 maybe there’s traffic,
0:40:09 but like you really could have just,
0:40:11 I don’t know, left your apartment earlier
0:40:12 and gotten to the studio.
0:40:14 I know what I’d say back is like,
0:40:16 he doesn’t even understand traffic.
0:40:17 The traffic was so bad.
0:40:19 I would have gotten, so it’s paradoxical,
0:40:21 but it’s so effective.
0:40:23 And you can de-shame by just actually saying like,
0:40:26 oh, that’s the worst.
0:40:27 It’s usually pretty simple.
0:40:29 Or to me, like one of the most beautiful strategies,
0:40:32 it’s hard to even call it a strategy.
0:40:33 It’s just, I call it like, did I tell you about the time?
0:40:36 But it’s just like leveling with your kid
0:40:37 about a story from your own childhood.
0:40:39 That was just like that.
0:40:40 Oh, that makes me think about when I was in seventh grade.
0:40:43 And it’s not the same.
0:40:44 But like, I remember the science test.
0:40:45 I was like, what?
0:40:46 This question’s on and this question’s on.
0:40:47 You can kind of watch.
0:40:48 I’m gonna kind of like do a little trick here.
0:40:50 And part of me was like,
0:40:52 I guess I could have studied that,
0:40:53 but the teacher never told me.
0:40:54 And the teacher never even told me.
0:40:56 And so, oh, something like that happened to me too.
0:40:58 And so what you’re doing in the moment
0:41:00 is you’re actually just reconnecting with your kid.
0:41:02 You’re actually prioritizing connection.
0:41:03 Connect first is like the principle
0:41:05 we all want to try to do as often with our kids,
0:41:08 not because we’re soft,
0:41:09 but actually because it’s effective
0:41:11 if you wanna get anything done, right?
0:41:12 So I’m just connecting.
0:41:13 I’m de-shaming, I’m connecting.
0:41:15 And once I’ve formed that connection with my kid
0:41:18 and they’ve kind of unfrozen a little bit,
0:41:20 I can then enter into like a different conversation,
0:41:23 but it just has to happen later than we want it to.
0:41:26 – One of the things I wanted to come back to
0:41:29 outside of the world of teens
0:41:30 and maybe inside the adult world here is,
0:41:32 you said earlier,
0:41:34 how we think about someone affects
0:41:36 how we communicate with them.
0:41:38 I wanna relate that to how we think about ourselves
0:41:41 and that inner voice we have
0:41:43 and how the stories we tell ourselves.
0:41:46 And what are the common ways
0:41:48 that we sort of self-sabotage
0:41:52 or get in our own way with these stories
0:41:54 that we’re telling ourselves
0:41:56 and we’re not being kind to ourselves
0:41:57 and we’re not being gentle.
0:41:58 And that has all of these other sort of implications.
0:42:02 Like how can I treat you nicely
0:42:04 if I don’t even treat myself nicely?
0:42:06 – Yes, I mean, there’s so many examples of that, right?
0:42:10 And I think most of us, we can get into the causes,
0:42:14 but most of us have learned to wire struggles
0:42:19 next to blame.
0:42:21 They’re like very, very close in our circuitry.
0:42:23 And I say blame ’cause it’s often a combination
0:42:26 of other blame and self-blame, right?
0:42:29 I think blame is often a two-way street.
0:42:30 Like some of us maybe, you know,
0:42:32 specialize more in self-blame.
0:42:33 Some of us in other blame,
0:42:34 but usually it’s a seesaw, like it’s, you know.
0:42:36 And so when something’s hard
0:42:38 or something doesn’t go our way, right?
0:42:41 Maybe I yelled at my kid, right?
0:42:43 And then all of a sudden I’m like, I’m a monster.
0:42:45 I’m the worst parent.
0:42:46 I messed up my kid forever.
0:42:47 It’s just like huge spiral.
0:42:49 Or I did a presentation at work
0:42:51 and my boss said something like,
0:42:53 I don’t know if it was critical,
0:42:54 but it was kind of ambiguous.
0:42:55 And I leave and I’m like, my boss thinks I’m so stupid.
0:42:57 And like, oh my goodness, I’m gonna get fired.
0:42:59 And we just, like you said,
0:43:00 we start telling ourselves stories.
0:43:03 And then those stories start to influence, of course,
0:43:08 they influence how we feel.
0:43:09 They influence then the next action we take
0:43:11 that usually is just kind of further reifying that story
0:43:14 or really that interpretation.
0:43:15 And we can really get off to the races, right?
0:43:18 Another image I wanna share, right?
0:43:21 ‘Cause I think this is really one of my favorites
0:43:23 and it really illustrates what we’re talking about.
0:43:25 It’s like, if you picture yourself as the driver of a car,
0:43:27 we all have multiple passengers in our car, right?
0:43:30 So like some of us have imposter syndrome
0:43:32 as like a very, very noisy passenger.
0:43:34 Some of us have, it’s all my fault.
0:43:36 Some of us have, the world is gonna end
0:43:38 and everything is gonna go badly, right?
0:43:40 We get into problems, not when those things
0:43:42 are our passengers, we get into problems
0:43:43 and those things take over the driver’s seat.
0:43:46 And actually, a lot of us, when we’re aware of those voices,
0:43:50 we try to get them out of our car, like we do.
0:43:52 We’re like, I shouldn’t feel that way,
0:43:53 or I know my boss doesn’t actually think I’m stupid.
0:43:56 Why am I thinking that?
0:43:57 We either fight the voice or it kind of takes over us.
0:44:02 Like that’s usually what happens.
0:44:04 When I actually think mental health
0:44:08 is not about getting those voices out of our car.
0:44:11 They’re there, they’re not going anywhere.
0:44:12 But actually just like talking to them
0:44:14 when they’re in the passenger seat
0:44:16 to ensure that they don’t take over the driver’s seat, right?
0:44:19 So for example, not first of yelling at my kids
0:44:22 and maybe like, oh, there’s the I messed up my kid forever.
0:44:25 Again, voice, hey, it’s unfortunate,
0:44:28 but you do tend to come up
0:44:29 whenever I make a little mistake with my kid.
0:44:31 And like, okay, I’m just gonna come back to today,
0:44:33 like it is 2024 and I don’t really know
0:44:37 what the next 80 years kind of hold,
0:44:39 but I’m pretty sure what I did today
0:44:41 did not mess up my kids forever.
0:44:43 And I know you’ll say that again to me,
0:44:44 but I’m just gonna kind of keep you in the back seat, right?
0:44:47 Or, okay, I don’t even feel great about my presentation
0:44:51 and my boss did do this,
0:44:52 but there’s that my boss hates me voice.
0:44:54 And it’s true, whenever I even doubt myself a little bit,
0:44:58 I do tend to also think that my boss is about to fire me, right?
0:45:02 And all of a sudden now I’m actually in a relationship
0:45:05 with these stories, right?
0:45:07 Or with these parts, I would call them these parts.
0:45:10 And as soon as you’re in a relationship with a part of you,
0:45:12 inherently that part of you can’t take over you
0:45:14 because you and the driver seat are like talking to it.
0:45:19 And to me, that’s what I actually teach adults
0:45:21 and parents like all the time.
0:45:22 It’s honestly like some of my favorite interventions
0:45:24 to teach kids how to do that when they’re young.
0:45:25 I think it’s like one of the most important skills
0:45:27 I could take into adulthood with them
0:45:29 because I think those are some of like
0:45:30 the ultimate coping skills in life.
0:45:33 – One of the other things we talked about earlier
0:45:35 and I’m sort of like going down a couple of rabbit holes
0:45:38 ’cause we sort of covered a lot of ground really quickly
0:45:41 was regulating emotions.
0:45:44 And not only do we as adults and parents
0:45:47 have to teach our kids or help them
0:45:49 better regulate their own emotions,
0:45:52 we have to often learn how to regulate our own emotions.
0:45:55 How do we do that?
0:45:57 – I get this question from parents often, right?
0:45:59 Because the way kids learn how to regulate emotions
0:46:04 is through their relationship with their parents, right?
0:46:08 It’s not something you could get taught in a textbook.
0:46:11 And it’s not to say when we get older,
0:46:13 if we didn’t have a lot of those early experiences
0:46:14 that helped us learn how to regulate our emotions,
0:46:16 which most adults, I know a lot of them didn’t,
0:46:18 doesn’t mean we can’t get there.
0:46:20 But our kids, right, they kind of borrow our regulation
0:46:25 in a moment and they kind of absorb it.
0:46:27 And like I was saying before, they kind of over time learn,
0:46:30 oh, my emotion inside me that feels so scary to me
0:46:33 is less scary to someone else.
0:46:34 And they kind of absorb that hope
0:46:36 and they absorb that kind of tolerance.
0:46:38 And that really forms the foundation
0:46:40 for so many of their coping skills.
0:46:42 So parents will say to me, okay, I actually get that.
0:46:44 How can I do that for my kid if I can’t,
0:46:48 if I really do struggle to regulate my own emotions?
0:46:51 It seems like I’m teaching my kid and myself
0:46:53 at the same time.
0:46:55 And we are, and like that is just kind of the hand,
0:46:57 a lot of us were dealt and it’s not an impossible hand.
0:46:59 It’s not an easy hand, but it’s definitely a winnable hand.
0:47:02 Like I know that and I’ve seen it now with millions of adults
0:47:04 who are, you know, winning a lot of their hands.
0:47:07 And so I think there’s a couple like concrete ways
0:47:11 as adults that we can, you know,
0:47:13 start to learn how to better regulate our emotions, right?
0:47:17 Number one to me is just the word curiosity.
0:47:19 Like being curious about yourself
0:47:22 is a foundation to regulating your emotions.
0:47:27 Because it’s the difference between saying,
0:47:29 my kids whining, like who can stay calm
0:47:32 when they whine all day?
0:47:33 Like, are you saying people like whining?
0:47:35 I have to get to a place where I like whining.
0:47:37 No, nobody likes whining, literally nobody likes whining,
0:47:39 but there’s a big difference between not liking whining
0:47:43 and I don’t know, reacting and being in a state of reactivity
0:47:46 with screaming at our kids,
0:47:48 versus not liking whining and being able to regulate
0:47:50 our emotions and respond to our kid
0:47:52 from a place of groundedness and sturdiness, right?
0:47:54 Still, nobody likes it, but it’s very different.
0:47:57 And curiosity to me gets us from point one to point two,
0:48:00 because instead of saying like, what’s wrong with my kid
0:48:02 and why are they acting the way they’re acting?
0:48:04 We might say, what’s going on inside of me?
0:48:07 What’s going on for me?
0:48:09 What is happening inside me?
0:48:12 That is kind of a component of this reaction, right?
0:48:14 The idea that my kid’s whining
0:48:16 is an inherently making me scream at them.
0:48:19 It’s a trigger, but there’s a story inside me.
0:48:22 There’s something that happens inside my body
0:48:24 that frankly predated my kid’s existence.
0:48:27 So if I can get curious about that, right?
0:48:31 Then I can actually make a lot of progress.
0:48:33 And to me, I think it’s so easy to hear that
0:48:36 and someone say, oh, so it’s my fault?
0:48:37 No, like, I don’t know where,
0:48:39 I feel like we’re obsessed with the word fault.
0:48:42 Like it’s not your kid’s fault, it’s not your fault.
0:48:44 Like why does that have to be anyone’s fault?
0:48:46 Like I don’t know why it’s like, it’s just,
0:48:47 this is happening, either we can be curious and like learn
0:48:50 and through that learning, probably live in a way
0:48:54 that’s more in line with our values,
0:48:55 feel more in control of ourselves.
0:48:57 Like your kid’s gonna benefit,
0:48:59 but I promise you as the adult are gonna benefit
0:49:01 in areas like way more, like everybody wins, right?
0:49:03 And so I always say to parents,
0:49:04 this isn’t a system of like saying this is your fault.
0:49:07 It’s a system of saying like,
0:49:09 this is actually a place for your empowerment
0:49:10 and to like finally learn skills
0:49:12 and skills always help us feel, you know, more powerful.
0:49:14 So one of my favorite emotion regulation skills
0:49:18 to teach adults is something I call AVP, okay?
0:49:21 And it’s like the simplest thing
0:49:23 and has the most profound impact on people, okay?
0:49:26 So AVP stands for acknowledge, validate, permit.
0:49:30 So I’ll teach each part.
0:49:32 Step one to regulating emotions is acknowledging them.
0:49:36 And actually this is a really good point of the conversation
0:49:39 relative to what we just said about this image in the car.
0:49:41 So let’s say, you know, my kid is whining.
0:49:45 Step one, acknowledge like,
0:49:47 well, I’m feeling really annoyed, right?
0:49:49 Like in a way what I’m doing is like,
0:49:50 I’m the driver of my car and annoyance in the backseat
0:49:53 is like starting to kind of make its way to the driver seat.
0:49:56 And I’m like, hey there, hey.
0:49:58 And that’s literally what I’m doing.
0:49:59 I actually use the word high a lot
0:50:00 because it always makes me laugh.
0:50:02 And to me, if I could add levity to like that process,
0:50:05 it gets easier.
0:50:05 So I’m like, hi, annoyance or high anxiety, right?
0:50:08 Or something like that.
0:50:09 So for step one is just acknowledge.
0:50:11 You can acknowledge by using a quote feeling word
0:50:13 like high annoyance or high sadness.
0:50:15 A lot of people don’t like really know
0:50:17 the name of their feelings and that’s totally fine.
0:50:19 And you can also do it in a more general way.
0:50:21 Like I’m feeling uncomfortable right now.
0:50:24 Or I’m feeling about to explode right now.
0:50:25 Or I’m feeling tight right now.
0:50:27 Any acknowledgement.
0:50:28 Two is validate.
0:50:30 And to me, the best way that our body,
0:50:33 I think likes to be validated.
0:50:35 I don’t know why is the term makes sense.
0:50:37 I think there’s something where feelings feel like
0:50:39 accepted by logic in our body when we use that term.
0:50:42 I don’t know.
0:50:42 I haven’t asked, but I think that’s what’s happening.
0:50:44 So I’d be saying, I’m really, really annoyed right now.
0:50:48 Or when my kid was whining and I’d say to myself,
0:50:51 well, that makes sense.
0:50:52 Like whining is pretty annoying.
0:50:54 It makes sense that I feel that way.
0:50:56 That is a hugely helpful phrase
0:51:00 in regulating our emotions.
0:51:01 Because the reasons our emotions get unregulated, right?
0:51:08 Is that they are exploding out of our body in our behaviors.
0:51:12 They literally, if you think about these moments of reactivity
0:51:14 when I yell or the emotion is like coming out of my body
0:51:19 and like through my mouth, right?
0:51:20 It’s kind of like a volcano, right?
0:51:23 The opposite of that isn’t suppressing emotions
0:51:26 because you just can’t beat them.
0:51:27 So it’s always, you know, an unwinnable endeavor.
0:51:31 But we’re kind of saying when you regulate an emotion,
0:51:33 like it’s okay to live inside your body.
0:51:34 Like it can just live there.
0:51:35 It doesn’t have to explode out of you.
0:51:36 It can live inside there.
0:51:37 Like it has a place, it has a home.
0:51:39 So if you think about those two steps already,
0:51:40 like first I’m saying hi to it.
0:51:42 Like if you’re saying hi to someone at a party,
0:51:44 like maybe you don’t love them
0:51:45 but you’re probably like okay with them being there
0:51:47 because you said hi.
0:51:48 And then you’re telling,
0:51:49 you’re feeling like it kind of makes sense that you’re here.
0:51:51 And then P is permit,
0:51:52 which actually just involves saying to yourself,
0:51:55 I give myself full permission to be feeling this way, right?
0:51:58 So another example of going through an AVP
0:52:01 would be like I’m feeling really anxious right now
0:52:03 and really, really worked up.
0:52:05 And you know, well, that makes sense.
0:52:06 Like I am managing my kid’s soccer schedules
0:52:08 and you know, I’m thinking about what they need for dinner
0:52:11 and I didn’t respond to that email.
0:52:12 And I think tomorrow’s gonna be a snow day
0:52:14 and then my kid’s gonna have canceled school.
0:52:16 And P permit, right?
0:52:18 I give myself permission to be feeling this way.
0:52:20 And I think a kicker at the end is just adding the phrase
0:52:24 and I can cope with it.
0:52:26 And I can cope with it.
0:52:29 I, you know, interesting enough,
0:52:30 you’re catching me on like last night,
0:52:32 I was walking in Times Square and as I do,
0:52:34 I film videos myself for Instagram
0:52:36 when I’m like on the way to the subway.
0:52:38 So I was like filming myself and this guy saw me.
0:52:41 He’s this 28 year old guy, stop me.
0:52:43 He goes, I’m a 28 year old man, I’m unmarried
0:52:46 and I don’t have kids.
0:52:48 And he goes, and I like, I’m so excited to see you.
0:52:51 He’s like, you’re like a celebrity to me.
0:52:53 And he goes, literally, he goes, AVP has changed my life.
0:52:58 That’s what he said.
0:52:58 He goes, AVP has changed my life.
0:53:00 I’m reparenting myself.
0:53:02 I know I never learned what some people learned
0:53:04 in their childhood and I need to kind of reparent myself
0:53:07 through those skills and AVP has like, you know,
0:53:11 changed my life.
0:53:12 And so there’s a couple of ways to use it.
0:53:14 If regulating your emotions is new for you,
0:53:17 you can’t expect yourself to start to regulate your emotions
0:53:22 when you’re in your most heightened emotions.
0:53:25 That would be like someone who has never taken a foul shot,
0:53:29 taking a foul shot, game seven of the NBA finals
0:53:32 when time has run out and the game has tied.
0:53:33 Like that person is not making it.
0:53:35 You take foul shots in practice, low stakes.
0:53:39 And so the way I tell people to practice AVP
0:53:42 is literally going to their phone right now,
0:53:44 setting a random time that they tend to be alone, right?
0:53:47 Not in the midst of things
0:53:48 and just literally making a daily reminder that says AVP.
0:53:51 And when it goes off, you just stop
0:53:53 and you say to yourself, what am I feeling right now?
0:53:56 And it can be like, I’m not feeling much.
0:53:58 I don’t know.
0:54:00 Well, that makes sense because this is a new thing
0:54:02 for me to check in with my emotions.
0:54:04 So it makes sense that I’m not sure.
0:54:06 Permission, I’m giving myself full permission
0:54:08 to not know how I’m feeling.
0:54:09 Like there’s no way to get it wrong.
0:54:10 That’s what I’m saying.
0:54:11 And I promise you after a week or two,
0:54:15 not only will you start to recognize more things,
0:54:20 but already that skill, that coping skill
0:54:23 will start to appear not in 10 out of 10 emotional situations.
0:54:26 It will not, it’s not magic,
0:54:28 but like in maybe two, three out of 10s.
0:54:31 And I think that’s like one concrete thing,
0:54:33 like all adults can do to start making progress.
0:54:36 – Was earlier AVP in action when we said,
0:54:40 I’m glad you’re telling me about this.
0:54:42 I believe you, tell me more.
0:54:45 That sounds like AVP. – Oh my goodness.
0:54:47 Oh my goodness.
0:54:48 I’ve never, Shane, I’ve never thought about that.
0:54:51 But I’m so glad I’m telling you,
0:54:53 I’m telling me about this is basically like acknowledging
0:54:56 and like, yeah, like I believe you
0:54:58 is like another ultimate form of validation.
0:55:00 And actually, you know, it’s so interesting.
0:55:02 This is crazy.
0:55:03 My brain is firing in a million directions.
0:55:04 Someone told me with AVP, they’re like,
0:55:06 I don’t like to say it makes sense.
0:55:07 I don’t want to cry.
0:55:08 This one said, I just say to myself, I believe myself.
0:55:13 I really do feel this way.
0:55:14 So yeah.
0:55:14 And then permission, like tell me more is permissions.
0:55:18 Permission to feel, permission to keep going.
0:55:19 Yes, I guess that is very profound.
0:55:21 It will leave me with a lot to think about.
0:55:23 I’ve never made that connection.
0:55:24 Thank you.
0:55:25 When we have an emotional outburst,
0:55:27 we tend to react without reasoning.
0:55:30 We say things that, you know, sometimes we can’t unsay.
0:55:33 We do things that, you know,
0:55:35 the best version of ourself would not have us be doing.
0:55:39 And we all do this.
0:55:40 And this is natural and normal.
0:55:42 And I think it’s part of being human.
0:55:44 And how do we repair with our kids or our partner
0:55:49 after this happens?
0:55:52 Okay, we’ve had this outburst or, you know,
0:55:55 we have this fight or this argument.
0:55:57 We’re not feeling good about it,
0:55:58 but we really don’t know what to do now.
0:56:01 How do we get back to a good place?
0:56:04 I’m so glad you’re asking this question
0:56:05 because I always like kick myself if I’m in a conversation
0:56:10 and don’t get to talk about this
0:56:12 because it’s the ultimate, right?
0:56:14 Like to me, repair is literally
0:56:17 the number one relationship strategy.
0:56:19 Everyone should get good at whether you’re in a partnership,
0:56:22 your relationships at work
0:56:23 and definitely your relationship with your kid.
0:56:24 And I wanna go through this in a way.
0:56:26 It’s literally gonna come full circle to confidence,
0:56:28 to behavior versus identity as everything.
0:56:31 ‘Cause I really think of myself
0:56:32 as like a first principles thinker.
0:56:33 It always comes back to the same few things.
0:56:36 So every single person, definitely me included,
0:56:41 messes up, like I yell at my kids.
0:56:43 And it’s not something I’m just saying, like,
0:56:45 oh, that’s nice.
0:56:45 She’s saying this, like, of course I yell at my kid.
0:56:47 Like I’d be offended that you didn’t think
0:56:48 I yelled at my kid.
0:56:49 Like my kids, first of all, do not have Dr. Becky
0:56:52 as a parent and I would not wish Dr. Becky on any child.
0:56:56 I really wouldn’t as a parent.
0:56:57 Like it’s just not, it’s not human.
0:57:00 It’s not the way you can learn
0:57:01 about how relationships work, right?
0:57:03 If our relationship with our kids becomes the model,
0:57:06 they kind of take into adulthood
0:57:08 and how they think about relationships.
0:57:11 Shane, I don’t think you and I want our kids
0:57:12 going to look for a partner who’s like,
0:57:13 who is perfectly attuned to my emotions all the time?
0:57:16 Who always gets it right?
0:57:17 They will be very disappointed.
0:57:19 Nobody is like that.
0:57:20 So everybody messes up.
0:57:22 And when I say repairs, the number one relationship strategy,
0:57:26 it’s because there’s very few things
0:57:28 that can have as much positive impact on repair, okay?
0:57:31 And what I always like to think about there is, okay,
0:57:34 so if repair is one of the most powerful
0:57:38 relationship strategies and I’m supposed to get good
0:57:40 at repair, well, you can’t repair.
0:57:43 If you don’t mess up, you literally can.
0:57:46 And so really, okay, and I’ll go through how to repair.
0:57:49 After I yell at my kid, I really do say this to myself
0:57:52 because I used to be pretty bad at repairing
0:57:54 until I like understood really the power of it.
0:57:56 I’m like, oh, I messed up.
0:57:57 And especially with this like Dr. Becky stuff.
0:57:59 I’m like, what would people think if like, right?
0:58:01 Like I was yelling at my kids and I was like, wait,
0:58:03 I’m getting good at repair.
0:58:04 That’s like my goal.
0:58:05 So I messed up.
0:58:07 Step one, check, like crushed it, crushed it.
0:58:11 I messed up.
0:58:12 I already did step one.
0:58:13 Everyone says the first step is the hardest step.
0:58:14 Okay. Well, first step is messing up.
0:58:16 We did that.
0:58:17 Second step is repair.
0:58:18 Like you’re 50% of the way there.
0:58:20 So I want to take this whole idea and like turn on its head.
0:58:23 Repair is so important.
0:58:24 So I want to explain why repair is so important,
0:58:29 especially for kids and then get into the concrete way to do it.
0:58:33 So I just yelled at my kid and now usually in my house,
0:58:37 after I yell at my kid, like we’re separated.
0:58:39 Like after I really scream, like my kid’s in his room,
0:58:41 let’s say my son’s in his room.
0:58:43 And let’s say it’s about screen time.
0:58:44 I’m like, I told you to get off, you know, the video game
0:58:47 and like, you never listen and you, you know,
0:58:49 take advantage of me and like you said,
0:58:51 and I don’t know if I can trust you.
0:58:53 And, you know, when he’s like, you don’t understand me.
0:58:55 And I was just with my friends and you embarrass me.
0:58:57 And I’m like, you’ve seen nothing yet.
0:58:59 Okay. And then he’s in his room.
0:59:03 He’s like slammed his door and like, I’m in the kitchen.
0:59:06 Right. So what happens next?
0:59:10 Right. That moment already happened.
0:59:11 Do I wish it didn’t happen?
0:59:13 Yeah, I do.
0:59:14 Right. But, but it already happened.
0:59:16 So what goes on for a kid after a moment
0:59:20 that feels really bad with a parent before repair has happened?
0:59:25 So my kid is now, my son is now in his room.
0:59:28 He’s overwhelmed and from like a somatic physical perspective.
0:59:31 Right. He’s like agitated.
0:59:32 He’s obviously on edge.
0:59:34 I am too. And he’s even younger.
0:59:35 He’s helpless.
0:59:37 And right. Our kids are oriented by attachment with us.
0:59:39 Attachments, the primary evolutionary mechanism for kids.
0:59:42 They need us. They literally need us to survive.
0:59:45 And so they’re always kind of paying attention
0:59:47 to the status of their relationship with us, right?
0:59:49 And figuring out how to be close to us again,
0:59:53 figuring out how to get your body calm.
0:59:55 So you can kind of proceed with something they have to do.
0:59:57 So my kids alone, right?
0:59:59 Having just gotten yelled at and they have to figure out
1:00:02 how to feel safe again, like in their body.
1:00:04 And if I don’t go help them do it,
1:00:07 kids really only have two coping mechanisms
1:00:09 at their disposal on their own.
1:00:12 And those are self doubt and self blame.
1:00:14 So my kid could be in his room
1:00:16 and kind of engage in self doubt.
1:00:18 Did that really happen?
1:00:19 I mean, I don’t know, like if that happened,
1:00:21 someone probably come talk to me.
1:00:23 I don’t know.
1:00:24 Maybe I’m making a big deal out of things.
1:00:25 Maybe I’m overreacting.
1:00:28 Maybe my friends wouldn’t have thought
1:00:29 this was such a big deal and I guess I’m fine.
1:00:31 Like, yeah, yeah, I guess I’m fine.
1:00:33 Like just forget it.
1:00:34 And then also my mom never mentioned it again.
1:00:36 So maybe that didn’t even happen.
1:00:37 We don’t want to wire our self doubt into our kids
1:00:41 because it comes up in really in our opportune ways, right?
1:00:44 When my daughter, let’s say, or my son is older
1:00:48 and they have something, I don’t know,
1:00:50 uncomfortable happen with the boss
1:00:51 or with someone they meet in college.
1:00:53 Like I really don’t think any of us want our kids self talk
1:00:56 to be like, did that really happen?
1:00:58 Am I overreacting?
1:01:00 Would my friends have thought that was a big deal?
1:01:02 That’s like so terrifying, right?
1:01:04 And that’s not what we want.
1:01:06 So that’s self doubt.
1:01:08 And the other things kids do is self blame.
1:01:10 They just say it’s my fault.
1:01:11 They’re like, I did this.
1:01:12 If I was like a better kid, I wouldn’t have done this
1:01:15 and I ruin everything.
1:01:16 They either say, you’re both, I’m too much.
1:01:18 I’m not enough, right?
1:01:19 And they kind of say this to themselves to calm down.
1:01:22 And one of the reasons kids engage in self blame
1:01:24 that I find really compelling
1:01:26 to like share this idea more widely.
1:01:27 It’s not mine.
1:01:28 It’s by Ronald Fairburn, very, you know,
1:01:31 early psychiatrist.
1:01:34 What he says that I think is compelling is just,
1:01:36 for kids, it’s better to be a sinner
1:01:39 in a world ruled by God
1:01:41 than to live in a world ruled by the devil.
1:01:44 Meaning, kids have to feel safe in the world.
1:01:48 And they have to believe that their parents are like good
1:01:51 and like will keep them safe.
1:01:52 And so when things happen with their parents
1:01:53 that feel really bad,
1:01:55 it’s actually adaptive for a kid to internalize fault
1:01:57 and blame because at least then they can hold on
1:02:00 to the idea that their parents
1:02:01 and kind of their for the world around them
1:02:03 is safe and good.
1:02:04 And if we circle back to like,
1:02:05 why do we all blame ourselves after we struggle?
1:02:08 Well, if over and over after hard times in your body,
1:02:11 hard time, thing that didn’t feel good self blame,
1:02:13 hard time thing that didn’t feel good self blame,
1:02:15 will you become an adult
1:02:16 when you have a hard time and things that don’t feel good?
1:02:18 Guess what happens next in your circuit, self blame, right?
1:02:21 Adaptive when you’re young,
1:02:22 very, very much holds us back when we’re adults.
1:02:27 And so whenever I think about those two things
1:02:30 that my kid would have to do if I don’t repair,
1:02:32 it becomes extra compelling to repair
1:02:34 because I really think, oh my goodness,
1:02:36 my kid and I had this event.
1:02:39 But here’s what people misunderstand.
1:02:42 Events don’t mess up kids.
1:02:44 Events aren’t even inherently traumatizing.
1:02:47 What kind of like their mess up ’cause it sounds so final,
1:02:50 but what really impacts kids is not an event.
1:02:54 It’s the story they tell themselves about the event.
1:02:57 That’s what gets encoded in their body.
1:02:59 That’s actually what memory is, right?
1:03:01 It’s events and every time you’ve remembered that event.
1:03:04 – Is it the same for relationships too?
1:03:06 In terms of like what gets remembered,
1:03:10 it’s the story we tell ourselves about that moment?
1:03:13 – Well, I think there’s a lot of science on this now
1:03:15 that like memory is in events.
1:03:17 It’s events and every other time you’ve remembered the event.
1:03:20 To me, that’s the best way to think about it
1:03:21 because it actually speaks to why therapy
1:03:23 is powerful for people, right?
1:03:24 Like you don’t change the events of your childhood,
1:03:27 but by remembering them in a different way
1:03:29 in the context of a safer relationship,
1:03:31 actually your memory changes.
1:03:32 Your memory’s literally change.
1:03:35 And so if you go back to like you’ve yelled at your kid,
1:03:37 you don’t feel good.
1:03:38 Your kid’s alone in their room.
1:03:40 You don’t want them to engage in self-blame,
1:03:41 self-doubt, right?
1:03:42 You don’t want that.
1:03:44 Not only that, to me like I often really,
1:03:46 I feel like I’m a magician when I go prepare with my kid.
1:03:49 I’m like, oh my goodness, what happens next
1:03:53 after the yell is going to have the most impact
1:03:58 on what you end up encoding about the event.
1:04:02 Like if I can go in and do a true repair,
1:04:06 you’re gonna, you’re not gonna be messed up by that.
1:04:09 You’re gonna learn that wasn’t your fault.
1:04:11 You’re actually gonna watch an adult take responsibility
1:04:13 for something that didn’t feel good to them.
1:04:16 You’re gonna learn that after hard moments
1:04:18 can be new understanding
1:04:20 and people kind of working on themselves.
1:04:22 Like what’s a better lesson to my kid than that?
1:04:26 That’s why I say it was an amazing opportunity.
1:04:29 And so to actually engage in repair, there’s two steps.
1:04:34 And I think the first step is one that’s not talked about
1:04:37 a lot and it’s why so many of us
1:04:38 have a hard time repairing or apologizing.
1:04:41 And the first step, and this is gonna be full circle,
1:04:43 is really repairing with ourselves.
1:04:45 If someone says like, I have a really hard time apologizing
1:04:47 or my husband, my wife, my mom really can’t apologize.
1:04:52 What they probably mean is they actually,
1:04:55 and chance is very similar to why someone
1:04:56 wouldn’t take responsibility for getting a bad grade.
1:05:00 They’ve equated the thing they did
1:05:02 with the type of person they are.
1:05:03 And so as long as me yelling at my son
1:05:07 means I’m a monster and a bad mom,
1:05:10 there’s no humanly possible way I could repair.
1:05:13 My body wouldn’t even let me.
1:05:15 I can’t face the idea of being an awful person.
1:05:20 In fact, if I stay in that place
1:05:22 when I repair with my kid, probably not repairing.
1:05:24 I’m probably going to ask my kid to do me a service.
1:05:26 You forgive me, right?
1:05:27 You forgive me, right?
1:05:28 You still love me, right?
1:05:29 You love me.
1:05:30 I’m actually like asking my kid
1:05:31 to like give me back my goodness.
1:05:34 That’s like so not their job.
1:05:36 Repairing with ourselves really means,
1:05:39 and I really do this.
1:05:40 Some people are like,
1:05:41 what does that really mean practically?
1:05:42 I’m like, no, literally.
1:05:43 Like I go into a bathroom, I sit on a closed toilet,
1:05:46 I put my feet on the ground, I put a hand on my heart,
1:05:49 and I’ll say to myself like,
1:05:51 I’m not proud of yelling at my kid,
1:05:55 and that yelling doesn’t define me.
1:05:57 And I think this exercise is powerful
1:06:00 for a million reasons,
1:06:01 but like in general, I put up my two hands
1:06:03 and I look at one and I’m like,
1:06:05 this is who I am.
1:06:06 This is my identity.
1:06:08 And I look at the other hand,
1:06:08 I say, this is what I did.
1:06:10 This is my behavior.
1:06:11 I’m a good person who yelled at my kid.
1:06:15 I’m a good parent who was having a hard time.
1:06:19 And I’ll notice, especially after like the bad moments,
1:06:21 those hands start to come closer together.
1:06:23 And I’m like, no, I’m not like,
1:06:24 this is the worst.
1:06:25 And I can’t repair with my son from that place.
1:06:28 I won’t.
1:06:29 But if I like stay in that place,
1:06:30 I’m like, no, like nobody’s perfect.
1:06:32 I didn’t mess up my kid forever.
1:06:34 And there is something to me to saying like,
1:06:36 you know, my latest behavior doesn’t define me.
1:06:39 I’m a good parent, Becky.
1:06:40 I’m still a good parent.
1:06:41 And I’ll look at one hand
1:06:42 and I’ll look at the other hand
1:06:43 who is having a hard time.
1:06:44 I feel something like release a little bit in my body.
1:06:47 And then really what’s happened
1:06:48 is I’ve re-accessed really my own good inside-ness
1:06:52 separate from this behavior.
1:06:54 And if anyone thinks it’s important
1:06:56 aren’t you letting yourself off the hook?
1:06:57 The only way to let yourself off the hook
1:07:00 is to conflate your behavior with your identity.
1:07:03 Because as long as you’re in a place of self-blame,
1:07:05 it’s actually a very like egotistical place
1:07:07 and you’re kind of like descending into this abyss.
1:07:09 You can’t reflect.
1:07:10 You can’t change.
1:07:11 You can’t wonder, what coping skills do I need?
1:07:13 What do I need to do differently the next time?
1:07:15 It doesn’t make an excuse,
1:07:16 but what was going on in my day that left me so fried
1:07:19 and overwhelmed and how could I change that next time?
1:07:21 The only way you can reflect and learn
1:07:23 is by repairing with yourself.
1:07:25 – Yeah, it’s sort of basically you’re saying,
1:07:27 I’m not gonna be defined by this behavior.
1:07:30 I’m not gonna let that define who I am
1:07:33 even though they can both be true, right?
1:07:35 I did this thing.
1:07:36 I don’t wanna be the person who does that type of thing.
1:07:39 And yet I did it.
1:07:40 And yet it doesn’t have to define who I am or my future.
1:07:44 – That’s exactly right.
1:07:46 And then you’ve kind of like, I do think about that.
1:07:49 You’ve like re-accessed this thing inside of you.
1:07:50 Like I’m kind of, I’m still like,
1:07:52 I haven’t lost that good inside in this.
1:07:54 Now I don’t need my kid to find it for me.
1:07:56 Now I don’t need them to validate it.
1:07:58 That’s, you know, not the point of a repair.
1:08:00 That is the opposite.
1:08:01 And now I can actually go and do a true repair with my kid.
1:08:04 And to me, a repair, you know,
1:08:06 I don’t think there’s an exact formula,
1:08:08 but like to some degree, you name what happened.
1:08:10 You take responsibility
1:08:13 and you state what you would do differently the next time.
1:08:15 And I think, I think especially that,
1:08:17 I think all those components are pretty important.
1:08:18 So I might say, hey, I’m thinking about yelling at you
1:08:23 when you were, you know, playing video games earlier.
1:08:26 The reason I want to name it specifically, again,
1:08:29 I always think that kids had the tendency to self-doubt
1:08:31 just to again, make themselves feel better.
1:08:33 And I always want my kids to go into adulthood
1:08:35 being like the things I see
1:08:36 and the things I noticed really are true.
1:08:38 And so I think just like validating that
1:08:40 when I yelled at you and you were playing video games
1:08:42 is a way of my son of being like,
1:08:43 okay, I didn’t make that up, like that did happen.
1:08:47 I’m really sorry.
1:08:48 And to me, this line matters and it’s controversial.
1:08:50 So I want to talk about it with you.
1:08:51 It’s never your fault when I yell, you know,
1:08:55 I’m really working on managing my own frustration,
1:08:57 even my system around how you do video games
1:08:59 because it is important you end at the time we said,
1:09:02 and there’s definitely a smoother way around that.
1:09:05 And even when you don’t, like it’s my job
1:09:07 to like, you know, approach that in a calmer way.
1:09:09 And that’s, you know,
1:09:11 and then I think a couple of things can happen.
1:09:13 It depends on your kid’s age too, you know,
1:09:15 but most of the time kids will look at you
1:09:17 and they’ll say like, whatever,
1:09:19 or they’ll say, can I have my snack now?
1:09:22 Or you’re so weird if it’s new, you know,
1:09:24 they’ll say something like that.
1:09:25 And I think it’s easier to walk out of the room
1:09:26 being like, oh my goodness,
1:09:27 like I just like did such major internal work
1:09:29 to make that happen and my kid didn’t even care.
1:09:31 They cared, do not take the bait,
1:09:33 especially if it’s new,
1:09:33 it’s a lot for them to process,
1:09:35 to be treated like someone who’s deserving of a repair.
1:09:39 And whenever any of us are kind of experienced something
1:09:43 emotional, a lot of us kind of push people away
1:09:45 to like have enough distance
1:09:47 to like try to like retake it in in our own time.
1:09:51 And so I know with 100% conviction
1:09:54 that it will make a difference to your kid,
1:09:56 even if they don’t gratify you
1:09:58 by saying something back, that’s kind in the moment.
1:10:00 – Is it different or where is it different
1:10:03 when it comes to repairing with a partner or spouse?
1:10:06 – Great question.
1:10:08 I think it’s both different and it feels totally different
1:10:10 and we all be included,
1:10:12 can get into such a state of willfulness
1:10:15 instead of willingness, with our partners.
1:10:18 You know, I think it’s the same thing.
1:10:22 It’s like you’re taking responsibility for what you did.
1:10:26 You’re owning your side of the equation.
1:10:28 You know, I think a lot of us,
1:10:29 let’s say y’all at your partner,
1:10:30 it’s easy to be like, well, if you didn’t do this thing,
1:10:32 you know, or, you know,
1:10:34 if you had said this instead,
1:10:35 I wouldn’t have reacted that way, right?
1:10:37 But at the end of the day,
1:10:39 we own our reactions and we’re responsible for,
1:10:43 you know, how we cope with things.
1:10:45 – Maybe it’s embarrassing,
1:10:46 but this is something I really struggle with sometimes
1:10:51 in particular moments when somebody
1:10:54 tells me how they’re feeling
1:10:56 and the implication is that I did something
1:10:59 that’s caused them to feel that way.
1:11:02 I catch myself saying, I’m sorry you’re feeling that way.
1:11:07 That doesn’t seem like a good way to respond or lead to.
1:11:14 – Did your partner want me to help you with this?
1:11:18 – Yeah, well, it’s sort of like,
1:11:20 because it’s like I’m insulating myself
1:11:22 from any accountability,
1:11:24 but in some cases, I might not agree with it, right?
1:11:27 So this is where my mind goes where it’s like,
1:11:28 well, I don’t agree that you should feel that way, perhaps,
1:11:32 or I don’t agree that I did anything that caused that.
1:11:35 How do I acknowledge and validate and repair?
1:11:39 And yeah, what’s a better way to respond in all of it?
1:11:43 – No, so let’s just like go further into that.
1:11:46 So, ’cause you said like, I don’t,
1:11:47 what you said I thought was compelling, like,
1:11:48 I don’t agree.
1:11:49 Is that the word you used?
1:11:50 – Yeah. – I don’t agree.
1:11:52 So could you, is there a situation
1:11:54 that we could delve into with a little more detail?
1:11:57 – Well, if somebody’s like, you did this thing
1:11:59 and it made me angry.
1:12:00 You know, in my mind, I can be like,
1:12:03 I don’t agree that you should be angry
1:12:05 or I don’t agree that you should be feeling that way.
1:12:08 It’s sort of like what I catch myself thinking.
1:12:11 Yeah, and when I catch myself thinking that,
1:12:14 the words that sometimes come out of my mouth
1:12:17 is I’m sorry you’re feeling that way,
1:12:21 which means I get to walk away without acknowledging
1:12:27 that I have any contribution to this.
1:12:29 And I’m not really, I’m sort of validating your feelings,
1:12:33 but not quite validating your feelings at the same time.
1:12:37 And it’s that dance between like, in some cases,
1:12:40 like I just don’t think I did anything
1:12:42 that would warrant that.
1:12:44 And so like, I don’t want to apologize for something
1:12:46 when I didn’t really do anything.
1:12:49 – Yeah. – What do I do in the,
1:12:50 am I crazy in this? – No, you’re 0% crazy.
1:12:53 And so much of this resonates with me too.
1:12:55 And I can get like this too.
1:12:56 So there’s a couple of things that you said
1:12:58 that I think we need to like,
1:13:00 not like break down, but like poke around,
1:13:02 that’s what I would say.
1:13:03 So, first of all, most of us when we’re married,
1:13:05 like right, or partnered, whatever we are,
1:13:07 like the way we react to our spouse
1:13:09 when they bring us up something they’re feeling,
1:13:12 is we do, we get very like kind of egocentric.
1:13:15 I do this too, where it’s like, well,
1:13:16 I wouldn’t feel that way.
1:13:18 Like, right?
1:13:19 And I think most fights, partners get in,
1:13:22 are kind of, they’re both saying to the other person,
1:13:24 why can’t you be more like me?
1:13:25 And then I’m like, well, why can’t you be more like me?
1:13:26 Why can’t you be more like me?
1:13:27 Right, we all find our partners,
1:13:29 inherently we’ve attracted to them,
1:13:31 because of all the ways they’re kind of different from us.
1:13:33 And then over time,
1:13:34 we become a little bit repelled
1:13:36 by those exact same things.
1:13:37 That’s like marriage, right?
1:13:38 And so, those differences, I think are at the core, right?
1:13:43 And so I actually think this relates
1:13:46 to that feeling bench a lot, right?
1:13:48 So, your partner is coming to you essentially saying,
1:13:53 I don’t know, I’m gonna make up a situation,
1:13:55 and tell me if it’s close enough.
1:13:57 Like, you didn’t text me and tell me
1:13:59 that you weren’t gonna stop at the store.
1:14:01 And like, I’m really mad,
1:14:02 ’cause I would have then gone by myself, I don’t know.
1:14:05 Is that close enough?
1:14:06 – Or you didn’t text me for two days,
1:14:07 and I thought you would text me in between,
1:14:09 or you know, like you were traveling.
1:14:10 – Great, you didn’t text me for two days
1:14:11 when you were traveling,
1:14:12 like you didn’t even reach out to see
1:14:13 how the last two days were going,
1:14:14 like I’m really mad, right?
1:14:16 Okay, great.
1:14:17 So, I know this sounds silly,
1:14:18 but I think I should really slow this down.
1:14:20 Because what your partner is saying,
1:14:23 what your partner’s not saying is a couple things.
1:14:26 They’re not saying you did anything so important.
1:14:29 They’re not saying I’m right to feel mad
1:14:32 because like that’s the right feeling in the world.
1:14:35 That’s like the right feeling in the world.
1:14:37 And they’re not saying you’re a horrible person.
1:14:40 And they’re not saying you’re at fault.
1:14:42 I think the first thing that really helps
1:14:45 when our partner shares how they feel
1:14:47 is my partner is inviting me
1:14:52 to get to know more about them.
1:14:54 This is an invitation.
1:14:57 They’re getting,
1:14:59 they’re showing me another part of themselves
1:15:00 that’s very vulnerable.
1:15:02 And they’d like me to be in a relationship
1:15:05 with that part of them.
1:15:06 Now, I know this is tricky ’cause you’re like,
1:15:08 but my partner’s also saying
1:15:09 that I did something to relate to that part.
1:15:11 Well, we all do this,
1:15:12 but they’re also saying almost like more zoomed out,
1:15:14 like, hey, now that that thing already happened,
1:15:17 like I’m coming to you.
1:15:18 And this is, I think the Gottman’s called,
1:15:21 this is like a bid for connection.
1:15:22 This is like an invitation.
1:15:24 – Yeah.
1:15:26 – Does that, as a start,
1:15:27 does that shift things a little bit?
1:15:29 – Totally, ’cause it’s like,
1:15:30 I’m reaching out because I care.
1:15:32 If I didn’t care, I wouldn’t be reaching out.
1:15:33 I wouldn’t be engaging in this conversation.
1:15:35 I would just ignore it
1:15:36 and sort of like build resentment slowly.
1:15:39 So the fact that you’re reaching out is a bid.
1:15:42 – That’s right, is a bid, exactly.
1:15:43 And you know, almost, and we don’t communicate this way,
1:15:46 but it’s almost like what a partner’s saying is like,
1:15:49 look, you and I are different.
1:15:51 And if I was traveling for two days,
1:15:53 you might not even notice that I didn’t text.
1:15:56 Or I might come home and be like, wow, you were really busy.
1:15:58 Tell me about how those days traveling were.
1:16:01 And for me, when you don’t text for those two days,
1:16:05 I spiral a little bit.
1:16:06 I feel unseen.
1:16:09 I feel like maybe you forgot about me.
1:16:11 You know, maybe that’s dramatic,
1:16:13 but that’s in somewhere inside me.
1:16:15 And my need is for more communication from you
1:16:19 than your need would be from me.
1:16:21 I think if someone said it to us, we’d be like,
1:16:23 okay, when you lay it out that way,
1:16:24 like I guess when we say I don’t agree,
1:16:27 what we’re really usually saying is,
1:16:29 I wouldn’t feel that way if I were you.
1:16:31 Which I don’t think anyone would disagree with, right?
1:16:34 I think one of the hardest parts
1:16:36 about being in a relationship
1:16:37 with someone who’s inherently different
1:16:39 is that like, wait, I wouldn’t feel that way.
1:16:40 But you do feel that way.
1:16:42 And I do love you.
1:16:43 And I am choosing to be in a relationship with you.
1:16:46 So we have this choice.
1:16:47 It’s like, I can kind of lean on,
1:16:50 and I think like there’s my righteousness,
1:16:52 I wouldn’t feel that way.
1:16:54 Or I can be curious about getting to know more of you.
1:16:59 And I think you’re right then,
1:17:00 same thing with our kids.
1:17:01 I’m sorry you feel that way.
1:17:03 Probably something we should always catch ourselves
1:17:04 if we can before we say it,
1:17:05 because it feels like it’s like neither here nor there.
1:17:08 And so many of the lines we talked about honestly,
1:17:11 if you think about a partner, right?
1:17:12 Who says this, right?
1:17:13 You were gone for two days.
1:17:15 Like, it’s the same thing.
1:17:17 They’re like sitting on a bench, right?
1:17:19 And they’re like sad.
1:17:21 They’re sad.
1:17:23 Or they’re mad, usually under mad is sad.
1:17:26 Also, you know, so it’s probably a little bit of both, right?
1:17:28 I’m mad, I’m sad.
1:17:29 And if you think about sitting down, right?
1:17:32 You’d say like, it’s actually a great first line.
1:17:34 Like, I’m so glad you’re telling me that.
1:17:36 Like, right?
1:17:37 And it’s so interesting how much that diffuses mad
1:17:40 right away, because like most people,
1:17:42 when they’re angry, they’re ready to fight, right?
1:17:44 And like they’re gearing up, right?
1:17:46 And actually, under mad usually is
1:17:49 some more vulnerable emotion.
1:17:50 And I think like, I’m so glad you’re telling me about that,
1:17:52 is it usually starts to get a little closer
1:17:55 than actually that next line, like, I believe you.
1:17:58 Like, I believe you that you were really hurt.
1:18:00 And again, you’re not saying,
1:18:01 and I think this is actually so important in parenting too,
1:18:05 understanding how someone feels in a deep way
1:18:10 is not at all the same thing as agreeing
1:18:14 or saying, I would feel that way too,
1:18:17 or saying that some way is to feel is right in the world,
1:18:19 like in some grand way, it’s just understanding.
1:18:22 It’s not condoning, it’s just understanding, right?
1:18:26 And then like, oh, so tell me, tell me what that was like for you.
1:18:28 Like those three lines, I think are actually
1:18:31 like such an amazing guide in that situation.
1:18:34 I think the problem with me is like,
1:18:36 I don’t, I want to know more deep down inside.
1:18:40 I also don’t want to necessarily,
1:18:44 like my brain just goes to this place where it’s like,
1:18:46 do you agree with this?
1:18:48 Do you not agree with this?
1:18:49 And like, that’s what I want to get out of is this.
1:18:52 Like, I don’t want to be in that sort of binary mode
1:18:54 because if I agree with it, I’m one person.
1:18:57 And if I don’t agree with it,
1:18:58 I’m a completely different person,
1:19:00 which is like cold and distant.
1:19:02 And if I do agree with it,
1:19:03 well, then I’m sitting on that bench with you
1:19:05 and I’m like, oh, totally, like I hate it when that happens.
1:19:08 And yeah.
1:19:09 And I would actually go so far, Shane, to say like,
1:19:12 I actually don’t think it’s great to agree with it either.
1:19:14 Like, I don’t know, you probably,
1:19:15 maybe you wouldn’t feel that way.
1:19:17 Like in my relationship,
1:19:18 my husband says stuff to me all the time that I’m like,
1:19:20 my first reaction to is like, oh, like, oh my God,
1:19:22 because I wouldn’t feel that way.
1:19:23 But I’m like, wait, like I’m in Becky mode.
1:19:26 I know, okay, I want to feel that way.
1:19:27 Like almost like who cares?
1:19:28 Like he’s sharing with me how he feels or, you know,
1:19:31 same thing as the opposite.
1:19:32 So I actually think,
1:19:34 I think it’s so helpful when we’re in relationships
1:19:36 to get out of agreeing or disagreeing.
1:19:40 I actually think, I don’t know,
1:19:41 I’m just thinking about this now.
1:19:42 Like when you’re curious about something,
1:19:43 you’re not sure if you agree or disagree.
1:19:45 You’re actually just like learning.
1:19:47 – So in talking to you today,
1:19:49 I think that’s the conclusion
1:19:51 that I’ve sort of drawn for myself,
1:19:52 which is just like approach it with curiosity and non-judgment
1:19:56 and just try to understand the other person.
1:19:58 And it’s sort of like I do with the podcast.
1:20:01 Like I’m not judging what people say.
1:20:03 I just want to see the world through your eyes.
1:20:05 And I want to smell what you smell.
1:20:07 And I don’t want to agree or disagree with what you’re saying.
1:20:11 I just want to see what the world looks like
1:20:12 through your lens.
1:20:14 – I love that.
1:20:15 And again, that idea of is it me against you
1:20:18 versus me and you against a problem is helpful.
1:20:20 Because if someone’s like,
1:20:21 I tend to get kind of judgmental
1:20:23 when my partner shares their feelings.
1:20:24 And I tend to be like, well, I wouldn’t feel that way.
1:20:26 And so I’m sorry, you feel that way.
1:20:28 If you know that and you want to work on it,
1:20:30 it’s an amazing thing to first share that with your partner
1:20:32 to be like, this is something I’m working on.
1:20:34 It’s like, you know, it really is.
1:20:35 And this is totally not your responsibility.
1:20:37 But again, because I see it as me and my partner
1:20:39 against this problematic dynamic.
1:20:41 I might say, look, the next time you do share
1:20:44 when you’re mad at me, this is so not your responsibility.
1:20:46 But if you’re able, right?
1:20:49 If you could like say to me, like,
1:20:51 I don’t need you to agree, just be curious.
1:20:54 Whatever it is, it almost just would like
1:20:56 bring up that part of you.
1:20:58 Like, I just like that, I don’t know.
1:21:00 And again, you don’t have to because it’s like,
1:21:02 if my partner doesn’t, it doesn’t mean I’ve justified
1:21:05 that I’m allowed to, you know, react with judgment.
1:21:07 But to me, again, it makes us feel like,
1:21:09 let’s together figure out where our conversation goes off
1:21:13 and work together so we can, you know,
1:21:16 move in a more productive direction.
1:21:19 – I want to switch gears a little bit here.
1:21:21 There’s so many other questions I have
1:21:22 and some including from friends.
1:21:24 I want to talk about something that a lot of my friends
1:21:27 seem to be struggling with with their kids.
1:21:29 And I’m going to use the term addiction,
1:21:31 but I’m not using it in a clinical sense.
1:21:33 I’m using it in the sense of like,
1:21:35 teenagers specifically being addicted to screens.
1:21:38 And I’m going to specify screens as their phone
1:21:41 or video games.
1:21:42 And that addiction shows some classic signs
1:21:46 of an actual addiction, including behavior
1:21:49 where you’re sneaking around, you’re hiding your phone,
1:21:52 you’re doing things that you shouldn’t be doing.
1:21:53 And maybe you’re missing school assignments
1:21:56 because you’re at school and you’re playing video games.
1:21:59 And so like it’s the baby steps towards an actual addiction
1:22:02 and maybe a clinical sort of,
1:22:05 what can we do as parents with the lying,
1:22:09 the sneaking, and this is not,
1:22:12 I mean, my kids exhibit this from time to time.
1:22:15 I think most teenagers is just sort of like part
1:22:18 of being a teenager as well.
1:22:19 You walk in your kid’s room and maybe they have their phone
1:22:22 and they’re trying to hide it and they’re covering it up
1:22:24 and they’re lying about it.
1:22:25 And how do we deal with screens specifically,
1:22:30 borderline addiction where it’s causing other problems
1:22:34 and the kids can’t self-regulate in terms of,
1:22:37 I need to get off my phone, I’ve been on it enough today.
1:22:41 – So first of all, the deck is stacked against us here.
1:22:44 I just want to say this, like,
1:22:45 I think back on the days where, I mean, I think this is true.
1:22:48 Sorry, my history isn’t amazing,
1:22:49 but like I’m guessing at some point kids could buy cigarettes,
1:22:51 you know, and it’d be like, how do I stop my kids?
1:22:53 How do I stop my kids?
1:22:54 At some point the government’s like,
1:22:55 we can’t leave it to parents.
1:22:56 Like these things are awful.
1:22:57 Like for kids, we know that they’re not in a place
1:23:00 to make good decisions.
1:23:01 And so there has to be legislation to make change.
1:23:03 I really believe kids in screens like are the same
1:23:06 and like we’re living in a time now
1:23:07 where it’s just all on parents
1:23:09 and I just feel for every parent.
1:23:10 So it’s just, if it feels really hard
1:23:12 and you’re struggling, like,
1:23:14 I think that’s the best it gets, right?
1:23:16 So I have a few more ideas than that.
1:23:17 But so second, kids cannot self-regulate with phones, period.
1:23:23 I would also say adults cannot self-regulate with phones.
1:23:26 They are stronger than us.
1:23:27 I have a very hard time if my phone’s anywhere near me,
1:23:30 not grabbing it and thinking about something to do.
1:23:32 So the idea that a kid won’t self-regulate
1:23:35 or isn’t listening or isn’t getting off
1:23:37 when they know their time is up,
1:23:38 I think we have to actually say like,
1:23:39 they are literally incapable of doing that.
1:23:43 And I think that’s actually a really important foundation
1:23:45 because it changes the types of interventions
1:23:48 we would even think to use.
1:23:50 So that’s two.
1:23:52 Three.
1:23:53 Our number one job as parents is to keep our kids safe.
1:23:58 And maybe that’s obvious,
1:23:59 but it’s also, it’s a line I’ve said to my kids
1:24:01 since they were young when my issues weren’t screens,
1:24:03 but it was like, I don’t know,
1:24:05 throwing sand at another kid in the sandbox
1:24:08 at which point I’d pick my son up.
1:24:09 And he’s like, no, no.
1:24:10 And even though he’d thrown five times,
1:24:12 I’d say, I’m picking you up, I’m bringing you to the car.
1:24:14 My number one job is to keep you safe.
1:24:16 And I will keep you safe even when you’re upset with me.
1:24:17 Like I used to like,
1:24:18 and it’s so interesting how I think about that now.
1:24:21 Our number one job is to keep our kids safe.
1:24:23 And we love our kids so much that we will keep them safe
1:24:25 even when they’re upset with us.
1:24:27 And putting that into practice is messy for sure,
1:24:30 but I still think the principle really matters.
1:24:32 My number one job is not to keep my kid happy.
1:24:35 It’s to keep my kids safe.
1:24:37 I actually say that to make it a lot.
1:24:39 What’s my number one job to keep you safe or happy?
1:24:41 I’m gonna be like, I know I was safe.
1:24:42 Right, but it’s really true.
1:24:44 Okay, next.
1:24:46 As parents, we can change our rules any time.
1:24:50 Like to me, this is one of the biggest things
1:24:52 I would talk about with parents in private practice.
1:24:54 They’d be like, these are the things that aren’t working.
1:24:57 And it would be like, their bedtime is too late
1:24:58 or screen rules.
1:24:59 I’d be like, okay, talking about changing them.
1:25:00 They’re like, oh, it’s too late.
1:25:02 It’s like, it’s been like this.
1:25:04 You know, I don’t know, like imagine,
1:25:06 imagine being on a plane, flying to California.
1:25:09 And like, it’s not just turbulent,
1:25:11 like major issues and you have to make an emergency landing.
1:25:14 And the pilot’s like, well, I don’t know.
1:25:16 We’ve got to go to Los Angeles.
1:25:18 So I guess there’s nothing we can do.
1:25:19 It’s like, what, like change course.
1:25:22 And if the pilot was like,
1:25:23 we’re going to make an emergency landing in Denver.
1:25:26 And all the passengers are like, what, that’s so annoying.
1:25:29 And the pilot was like, you know what, forget it, forget it.
1:25:34 Everyone seems pretty upset.
1:25:35 We’re just going to keep going.
1:25:37 Like, I don’t think anyone would want that pilot.
1:25:40 You’d actually probably be pissed at your pilot for,
1:25:43 even though like, you believe maybe it’s dangerous,
1:25:45 but maybe you underestimate it.
1:25:46 You’re like, we have to lend a Denver.
1:25:47 I’m so annoyed, but like, you’d be so freaking grateful
1:25:50 that the pilot knew what their job was,
1:25:53 even though people were putting up a protest.
1:25:56 And like, we are that pilot for our kids.
1:25:58 You can change altitude, change course, change rules.
1:26:02 And if you know your kid has their phone in the room
1:26:04 when they’re doing their homework, period.
1:26:06 Like, our kids should not have their phones in their room
1:26:08 when they’re doing their homework.
1:26:09 And let’s even take that and play it out.
1:26:12 Well, my kid always does.
1:26:14 And they’re like, not just 13 anymore.
1:26:16 They’re 17 and how could I change that?
1:26:18 I’m going to walk through how to change that.
1:26:20 Hey, sweetie, I have something to tell you
1:26:21 and you’re, I know you’re not going to like it,
1:26:23 but look, I’ve been thinking about certain things.
1:26:26 And my number one job is to like help make good decisions.
1:26:29 Even when you’re upset with me,
1:26:30 that’s actually how much I love you.
1:26:32 That I’m willing to make decisions
1:26:33 that I really do believe are good for you,
1:26:35 even if you’re going to be really, really mad at me.
1:26:37 And I’m about to share one of those decisions.
1:26:39 When you come home from school,
1:26:41 we have a box to put your phone in.
1:26:44 And it’s not walking it away.
1:26:45 That phone comes back to you
1:26:47 as soon as you finished your homework.
1:26:48 And I know you’re used to having your phone in your room.
1:26:51 And I know I’ve allowed it.
1:26:52 I know we’ve argued about it.
1:26:53 Starting tomorrow, it’s not happening.
1:26:55 I just want to be fair, it’s not.
1:26:56 And if you yell at me and if you’re mad, it’s not happening.
1:26:59 And the reason it’s not happening
1:27:01 is because it’s not like you have bad willpower.
1:27:03 It is literally impossible to focus on schoolwork.
1:27:07 For even adults, it would be.
1:27:08 While we have in a device
1:27:10 that has so many fun games on it right next to us.
1:27:12 And I know that’s a change.
1:27:14 And I know that the first couple of days will be hard.
1:27:16 And I actually know that at some point after,
1:27:18 it’ll become a lot easier.
1:27:20 And I know in my modeling of that first of all,
1:27:25 it’s really easy to say that to you.
1:27:27 Like you’re not my kid
1:27:28 and you’re not about to yell at me, right?
1:27:30 But what parents say to me all the time is they’re like,
1:27:32 the way you said that sounded like actually nice,
1:27:35 but like no nonsense.
1:27:37 Like I didn’t doubt that you meant that, you know?
1:27:40 ‘Cause I think our kids smell our doubt.
1:27:42 And also what we do, and I just wanna model this.
1:27:44 I know you noticed your grades have been slipping.
1:27:49 And I’m just thinking about your phone in your room.
1:27:51 And I know you know that’s not a good idea, right?
1:27:54 You know that’s not a good idea, right?
1:27:56 And I think today we should try.
1:27:58 That literally is like a pilot coming on
1:28:00 and being like, you guys know it’s a good idea
1:28:03 to land in Denver, right?
1:28:04 Like can I just get a vote out there?
1:28:06 Don’t you think it’s a good idea
1:28:07 to have an emergency landing?
1:28:08 You’d be like, where is my leader?
1:28:10 This is crazy talk.
1:28:11 Just tell me, you know?
1:28:12 And I think that metaphor matters so much
1:28:15 because what I would tell parents to do,
1:28:17 and I really mean this concretely,
1:28:18 get out your phone, first write a script for yourself.
1:28:21 You can read it to your kids if this is new for you
1:28:23 to kind of embody your authority in an appropriate way, right?
1:28:27 Not in a mean way, but an appropriate way.
1:28:28 Get out a voice recorder and read the script
1:28:30 into your phone and then play it back to yourself.
1:28:32 It’s amazing.
1:28:33 You’ll be like, wow, I really sounded
1:28:35 like I was asking my kid.
1:28:35 I didn’t even believe myself.
1:28:36 I didn’t even believe myself.
1:28:38 And then say it again.
1:28:39 And you’d be like, wow, that sounded like mean
1:28:41 and harsh and critical.
1:28:42 OK, OK, so I have the two ends.
1:28:44 Let me try it again.
1:28:45 Literally, just like we said, it’s like practice, right?
1:28:50 And it goes back to boundaries.
1:28:52 I can’t ask my kid to be doing my job for me.
1:28:57 And I think we do that a lot with kids, and they smell it.
1:29:00 And it’s why they act out more, not to take advantage of us,
1:29:02 but because they don’t feel like they have a sturdy leader.
1:29:06 Do you think that’s– that happened or more
1:29:08 prone to happen when we want them?
1:29:11 A lot of parents seem to want to be friends with their kids
1:29:14 first and sort of the pilot second.
1:29:16 And do you think when we conflate those two things
1:29:19 that we tend to be like, get in trouble?
1:29:22 Yeah, it’s interesting.
1:29:23 I think about how important it is to be connected to our kids.
1:29:26 And let’s say friends is a form of connection.
1:29:28 I don’t know, though.
1:29:29 In my close friendships, I’m not boundaryless.
1:29:32 I don’t think a good friendship is always
1:29:33 making my friends happy.
1:29:35 So if that’s someone definition of friend,
1:29:37 then I guess then they’re trying to be friends with their kids.
1:29:39 To me, that’s never how I try to be friends with my friends.
1:29:41 Definitely not with my kids.
1:29:42 To me, any good relationship comes from both being
1:29:45 connected to someone else and connected to yourself.
1:29:50 Yeah, maybe it’s more like you want your kid to like you,
1:29:53 I guess, which is a very human sort of need, right?
1:29:55 And I think, though, we know also from so much research,
1:30:00 how much teens find so much comfort when their parents are
1:30:05 protecting them.
1:30:06 They don’t gratify you.
1:30:07 Like, by the way, if I said this thing just about the phone
1:30:10 thing, my son, even if I deliver it the way,
1:30:13 it’s not going to be like, mom, you are such a sturdy leader,
1:30:16 and I feel so taken care of by you.
1:30:18 I just want to tell you that.
1:30:19 No, no, he would not.
1:30:22 That would be crazy down my son.
1:30:23 My son, too, would be like, that’s not fair.
1:30:25 And all my friends do.
1:30:26 And you’re saying, you know, trust me.
1:30:27 Oh, are you saying, you don’t trust me?
1:30:28 That would be like, sweetie, this is not about trust.
1:30:30 This is actually just about me making a decision
1:30:34 that I know is the right one.
1:30:35 That’s really all it’s about.
1:30:36 I think this also relates to something we aren’t taught
1:30:40 and therefore don’t expect as parents,
1:30:42 that two things that are totally independent
1:30:44 is us making a good decision as a parent
1:30:46 and our kid having a big emotional reaction.
1:30:49 They’re both equally true and equally valid.
1:30:51 We kind of fool ourselves into thinking,
1:30:54 like, if I make an amazing decision as a parent,
1:30:56 my kid’s going to be like, that sounds good.
1:30:59 But we also do the opposite, is that when we see our kid be
1:31:02 very mad at us, we think it means we made a bad decision.
1:31:05 And to me, the idea of like, two things are true.
1:31:07 I’m allowed to make decisions.
1:31:09 And my kid is allowed to have emotional reactions.
1:31:11 Neither is more true than the other.
1:31:13 Neither is more right than the other.
1:31:14 They’re just two truths I have to hold at once.
1:31:17 Can really prepare us.
1:31:18 And so if you’re going to have a conversation like this,
1:31:19 we can go through other things about this too.
1:31:21 Actually, going in as a parent, and I always call this
1:31:23 emotional vaccination, right?
1:31:25 Like, vaccinating ourselves.
1:31:27 Like, I would actually go through this.
1:31:28 This was me and I was nervous.
1:31:30 And this was like a new thing for me to do.
1:31:32 I’d probably like, play this out with a partner or friend.
1:31:35 I’d be like, can you be our son?
1:31:37 Like, can you do it?
1:31:38 I’d give myself a rep.
1:31:39 Like, it is like taking foul shots in the gym.
1:31:41 Like, I find sports to be like the most useful metaphor.
1:31:43 Like, you know, we take foul shots in the gym,
1:31:46 so we can do it in the game.
1:31:47 Like, well, you’re going to do something for the very first
1:31:49 time to your teenage son, who you know is going to be upset.
1:31:51 And you think that’s going to feel great or feel even
1:31:53 successful, of course not.
1:31:54 Like, do a drive run, do it with your friend, and have them.
1:31:56 I would really have my husband in the case, because like, no.
1:31:59 And like, it will feel a little funny because I know he’s acting.
1:32:02 But my body will start to develop like a little bit of a circuit
1:32:06 for saying it, for tolerating it.
1:32:08 So then at least with my son, it’s my second time.
1:32:11 And not like the first time.
1:32:13 No, I think that’s a beautiful way to sort of tie it together.
1:32:15 Do you think a lot of my friends sort of like try to,
1:32:20 I don’t know, resolve this issue is the right word.
1:32:22 But it’s like, well, if you get above, you know, 80,
1:32:26 you can have X amount of video game time per day.
1:32:29 And if your report card has your grades above 90,
1:32:32 you can have X times two.
1:32:34 What is that doing?
1:32:36 Well, I think now we’re talking about so many different things
1:32:38 about like grades and about our focus on them and kids building
1:32:44 intrinsic motivation versus extrinsic motivation.
1:32:47 And, you know, the part of that that I think is well-intentioned,
1:32:52 OK, is I mean, everything’s well-intentioned.
1:32:55 But the part of me that strikes me about that in a positive way
1:32:57 is I think to some degree we’re saying,
1:32:59 I want to make sure you’re like doing the developmental tasks
1:33:03 of your age, like you’re supposed to be going to school,
1:33:05 you’re supposed to be doing your work.
1:33:06 And if I think you’re– and we both
1:33:08 think you’re kind of capable of performing a certain way,
1:33:11 not for some outside reason, but just because it’s
1:33:13 in line with your abilities, like I
1:33:14 want to make sure you’re progressing in that way.
1:33:16 And maybe these are markers that you’re kind of completing
1:33:20 those developmental tasks.
1:33:21 I get that.
1:33:22 I don’t think that’s how kids receive it.
1:33:24 I think it feels like grades are the thing that matters.
1:33:27 And, you know, that’s all.
1:33:29 I mean, I don’t think there’s a perfect system.
1:33:33 So that’s why I think we’re all like muddying around in this.
1:33:37 I do think when it comes to, you know, screen time and how much
1:33:42 and when, to me, this is like actually a great time
1:33:45 to call kind of a family meeting of sorts.
1:33:48 That’s what I call them, where especially as your kids get older
1:33:50 to say, hey, I think we should have a meeting, you know,
1:33:52 and really talk about screen time and when it happens
1:33:55 and where it happens.
1:33:56 And I’m going to have some ideas.
1:33:58 You’re going to have some ideas.
1:33:59 We’ll kind of get them all down on paper.
1:34:00 And then we’ll probably agree on some ideas
1:34:02 that each of us don’t totally love, but can agree to, right?
1:34:06 And then actually doing that and to be like, OK.
1:34:09 So when should you– let’s talk about when you’re
1:34:12 going to do video games.
1:34:13 Other things related to that are homework.
1:34:16 Are, you know, playing, you know, with your sister, you know,
1:34:21 or, you know, like general, how are you doing in school?
1:34:25 I don’t think that’s the only thing that matters,
1:34:26 but maybe it’s one data source that we think about.
1:34:29 OK, let’s go through it.
1:34:30 And then what I think is really key, OK,
1:34:33 is when you start to brainstorm, first of all,
1:34:35 to literally write things down.
1:34:36 That’s not, like, just something I’m saying.
1:34:38 When you write down things other people are saying,
1:34:41 especially if they’re topics that are kind of conflictual,
1:34:43 the other person immediately feels respected, right?
1:34:45 Like, imagine your boss being like, wait,
1:34:47 you want to raise me, write down all the reasons.
1:34:49 You’d be like, wow, I feel very seen, you know?
1:34:51 So to actually write it down and to start this off
1:34:53 in a productive way, it’s really helpful to, like,
1:34:58 break the ice a little bit as a parent
1:34:59 with, like, the first thing.
1:35:00 So it’d be like, when can you play video games, right?
1:35:04 And maybe, like, I would start off saying, like, you know,
1:35:08 I’ve actually totally changed my mind,
1:35:09 and I kind of feel like you probably only need three hours
1:35:12 of sleep, and so I think you should play video games from,
1:35:15 I don’t know, probably from, like, 10 p.m. to, like, 4 a.m.
1:35:18 OK, so I’m just going to write it down.
1:35:19 And, like, my son would be like, whoa.
1:35:21 But, like, if I get the eye roll, he thinks he’s rolling his eyes,
1:35:24 and I’m like, I just won there, because, like, I’m just,
1:35:26 like, starting.
1:35:26 So I’d write down, literally, one, video games from,
1:35:30 you know, 10 p.m. to 4 a.m. OK, two.
1:35:32 And as soon as you start that way,
1:35:34 your kid’s going to be a little more engaged, right?
1:35:36 And then I would write it down, and then you review, oh, 12.
1:35:39 You know, oh, not many hours of video games.
1:35:40 Oh, you know what, I don’t know.
1:35:42 10 p.m. to 4 a.m., it’s like, it’s kind of a lot, you know?
1:35:44 And I don’t know, maybe you need more than three hours.
1:35:46 I’m just going to, like, kind of put an X in that one.
1:35:47 That’s probably not our best idea. And, again, what you hear in this example
1:35:50 is this is me and my son against kind of the video game schedule.
1:35:56 It’s not me against my son.
1:35:59 I love that, because you’re sitting on the bench in your word,
1:36:02 and you’re like, here’s the problem.
1:36:03 We’re on the same side of the table,
1:36:05 and we’re trying to address this problem together.
1:36:07 I think that’s a really effective way to do it.
1:36:09 How do you think about currency?
1:36:11 And I think that’s what it is, right?
1:36:12 People are trying to find a currency to control a behavior.
1:36:16 Yes.
1:36:16 And it has implications on long term, but, like, half the time,
1:36:21 and, like, I feel like I deserve an Olympic medal just for the kids,
1:36:25 you know, not dying that day and making it through the day.
1:36:29 And I imagine other parents feel the same way.
1:36:31 You know, it’s like, oh, my God, you know, I just did this normal day,
1:36:36 but it feels like an Olympic-level effort.
1:36:38 I just need to, like, find these little things that I mean,
1:36:42 there’s trade-offs, right?
1:36:43 Like, I need to figure out today before I can figure out long term.
1:36:48 How do you think about that in terms of, yeah,
1:36:51 we want our kids to be intrinsically motivated.
1:36:54 We can’t let them regulate their own screen time.
1:36:57 For many parents of teens, it’s one of the few currencies they actually care about.
1:37:03 I mean, I remember myself as a teenager.
1:37:05 My mom would be like, you can’t have this.
1:37:06 I’d be like, whatever.
1:37:08 I don’t need anything, you know, like, that whole attitude.
1:37:10 And at one point she took everything out of my room.
1:37:12 She literally, this is my mom, right?
1:37:14 Like, we’re going to have a power struggle.
1:37:16 You are going to lose.
1:37:17 I come in my room.
1:37:18 There’s, like, a mattress on the floor.
1:37:20 There’s no nightstand.
1:37:21 There’s no alarm clock.
1:37:22 There’s no nothing.
1:37:24 And, you know, in that moment, I was like, all right, it’s probably not.
1:37:29 But of course, I’m, like, lying there just, like, looking at the ceiling.
1:37:33 I will show no weakness, right?
1:37:35 Well, I’m trying to get to the bottom of your question,
1:37:37 because when I think about currency, to me, and maybe it kind of goes back
1:37:42 to your question of, like, the status of our relationship with our kid.
1:37:46 To me, if we’re thinking about our relationship with our kid
1:37:49 in terms of what we could give or take away that they care about,
1:37:53 we’re not in a great place.
1:37:56 Because I think if someone heard my husband being like,
1:37:58 what can I take away from Becky or give her?
1:38:01 If she just, you know, did the dishwasher more?
1:38:04 They’d be like, wow, I don’t know if I can answer your question
1:38:07 as much as I’m struck by this disturbing nature of your question.
1:38:12 Well, so this is super interesting.
1:38:13 So I was at the gym before this, and I was actually thinking about this.
1:38:15 And I was like, I wonder if a good indicator that what I’m doing as parenting
1:38:21 is probably not ideal if I wouldn’t do it to an adult.
1:38:25 I mean, I think that that’s, you know, like, here’s a great example of that.
1:38:28 Like, I think one of the number one things people tell me is there’s a lot of things.
1:38:33 But it’s, my kid doesn’t listen.
1:38:36 My kid doesn’t listen to me.
1:38:36 They don’t listen to me, right?
1:38:38 Like, it’s so common.
1:38:40 And, you know, I think about this.
1:38:42 Like, if I was sitting on my couch and I was just like, you know,
1:38:45 in the two minutes I have before my kids go to bed and I go to bed,
1:38:47 my two minutes, I’m like reading a book and my husband was also on the couch.
1:38:50 And he’s like, hey, can you go to the kitchen and get me water?
1:38:53 And I was like, I’m like reading my book.
1:38:55 Like, sorry, like you can get water.
1:38:57 And if he was like, you have a listening problem
1:38:59 and I’m going to take away your phone.
1:39:01 OK, I just, I feel like if someone was watching, I feel like they’d be like, Becky,
1:39:06 like, I feel like that’s gaslighting at best, maybe abusive.
1:39:08 Like, I feel like that is, that is, if anything, like that is his problem.
1:39:12 You just didn’t get him water, right?
1:39:14 And we do that to our kids all the time.
1:39:16 And if you’re like me and you’re where’s the moment you’re like, turn off the TV.
1:39:18 You’re not even near them.
1:39:19 You’re just like, yeah, it’d be like my husband in his room being like, go get me
1:39:22 water and bring it to the bedroom.
1:39:24 And I’m like, WTF, no.
1:39:27 And then he punishes me.
1:39:28 And we do that to our kids all the time.
1:39:31 So listening, cooperation, like why would I get my husband water?
1:39:36 Really, I’d either get him water because I was scared of him.
1:39:39 I would.
1:39:40 Wiring fear next to love is not something I recommend.
1:39:46 Because, yes, what that means, I’ll lay it out is your kid will go into their adult
1:39:49 relationships, thinking loving relationships are one in which you fear your partner.
1:39:53 And that’s who they’ll be attracted to, literally.
1:39:55 That’s what their attraction will be.
1:39:56 I don’t know any adult who wants that.
1:39:58 So I do not recommend for a lot of reasons.
1:40:00 Why else would I get my husband water?
1:40:01 Well, first of all, I probably wouldn’t have yelled at me across.
1:40:04 But if he was like, I know this is annoying and we’re both like kind of
1:40:07 trying to do our own things or any way you get me water.
1:40:08 The reason I’d say yes is because I felt close to him.
1:40:11 Maybe early in the day, he listened to me.
1:40:13 Maybe he’s been really supportive.
1:40:14 And that’s why, because I feel close to him.
1:40:17 And if he said to me, if you get me water, if you get me water, I’m just
1:40:20 laughing, if you get me water 10 days in a row, I’m going to give you a diamond necklace.
1:40:23 Okay.
1:40:23 I’d be like, okay, I probably will.
1:40:25 But I would also feel like our relationship is probably like not in a great place.
1:40:30 It’s transactional.
1:40:31 It’s transactional.
1:40:32 What’s so tricky is teens will get to the age where like they don’t have to hang out
1:40:37 with you and like they’re too big to put in a time out and they don’t care about
1:40:44 sticker charts and they don’t care about rewards.
1:40:47 And I think about this teen who, you know, him and his parents came to see me, you
1:40:53 know, in my practice and they came only because he had stopped going to school.
1:40:56 So like it was, you know, that’s pretty intense, like school refusal, right?
1:40:58 Like, then you’re like, shoot, like, what do I do?
1:41:00 My 14 year old stopping.
1:41:01 And I got the whole history and this was a kid and the parents were always getting
1:41:05 all these recommendations.
1:41:06 Like the kid was quote, difficult.
1:41:07 So he did a lot of time outs and punishments and sticker charts and rewards
1:41:10 and ignoring and power struggles.
1:41:11 And they missed out on 14 years of having a relationship with him.
1:41:15 They’d never relationship with him.
1:41:17 And now he was big and old and never too late.
1:41:21 We did so much work.
1:41:22 There was a lot of repair and moving forward in a very different direction.
1:41:25 But yeah, it’s like, it sounds so obvious, but it’s like, our kids are human.
1:41:30 Like they’re human.
1:41:31 They’re closer to adults than they are to animals that you’re trying to train
1:41:35 and shape their behavior.
1:41:37 And yes, I think the way to think about your relationship with your kid and
1:41:41 the place it’s at is like the way we relate to each other and the way I relate
1:41:45 to my child, like it’s not the same.
1:41:47 But is it based on the same principles at least in which I would engage in my
1:41:52 like healthiest adult relationship?
1:41:55 No, I think that’s a really good approach to it.
1:41:58 I mean, I haven’t really thought of it in that way.
1:42:00 I mean, I sort of like am I worst?
1:42:02 I catch myself using that as a currency.
1:42:04 And you know, it’s a currency when I say you can’t have it until you do your homework.
1:42:09 Right. And there’s a way in which I think that could be shifted.
1:42:12 So like, let’s say it’s like, you can’t have your phone until you do homework.
1:42:15 I mean, this actually is all about that mindset.
1:42:17 Am I looking at you on one side of the table or are we on the same side of the table?
1:42:20 Like my son, my right has a phone.
1:42:23 OK, my oldest.
1:42:25 And like he doesn’t get his between getting home and doing his homework, right?
1:42:29 He doesn’t have his phone and then he gets it after.
1:42:31 But not because like versus like not because like I’m not going to give it
1:42:35 to you until after it’s like out of again, like this is a problem.
1:42:38 We’re both in together.
1:42:39 Like it would it’s hard to have your phone and perform well.
1:42:42 And like, I know he wants to do well inherently.
1:42:46 I also know phones are addicting and playing a video game or looking up
1:42:49 stats on ESPN is inherently more fun than doing hard math homework for anyone.
1:42:54 So I’m helping him, I’m protecting him, but through this boundary.
1:42:59 So hey, sweetie, just a reminder, your phone goes here.
1:43:01 It’s just too hard for any of us to focus, you know, with our phone
1:43:04 right there when we’re doing hard work.
1:43:06 And yeah, as soon as it’s all done, this will come back to you.
1:43:08 Like, and that’s also the way I would want, again, like my partner
1:43:12 or another adult to talk to me.
1:43:14 That’s a big takeaway for me from this conversation is just approaching it
1:43:18 like you would approach an adult that you’re in a long-term relationship with.
1:43:21 You can’t win the day at the expense of the decade and you have to approach it
1:43:26 in a way the mindset really matters by which you approach the conversation,
1:43:30 even if the outcome is likely to be the same.
1:43:33 And I think that that’s fascinating.
1:43:35 I have a couple of quick questions, perhaps before we wind up here.
1:43:39 Great.
1:43:40 One question that one of my friends had was about when adolescence is actually over.
1:43:45 It seems like it’s become a prolonged life stage.
1:43:48 And there’s even been formal proposals now to increase the end range from 19 to 24.
1:43:54 Do you agree with this?
1:43:56 How should parents and societies sort of like gear themselves up for this?
1:43:59 So I don’t know if that’s like it actually just makes me think like, again,
1:44:03 if I’m sitting on the same side of the table as my kid, would I be like,
1:44:06 hey, you’re an adult now, like, I don’t know, I feel like it doesn’t roll off.
1:44:09 I see you like, OK, but I think I’m relying this question is like,
1:44:12 when does my kid become a more independent?
1:44:14 And like, when do they start to take care of themselves?
1:44:16 Right. And I actually think this gets back to something we didn’t touch on,
1:44:18 but you mentioned earlier, which is the idea of like letting our kids struggle, right?
1:44:22 To me, one of the things that I think
1:44:25 for some reason is getting increasingly hard to do in parenting
1:44:29 is just it’s just letting your kid live the results of like their actions, you know?
1:44:35 And to me, that’s not like the word consequence, but to me, a great example.
1:44:39 And it does relate to prolonged adolescence versus I think when we say launching
1:44:42 into adulthood, it’s just like feeling capable and feeling more independent
1:44:45 is I think we have to ask ourselves like when my kids are young
1:44:49 and entering adolescence for getting prolonged, am I setting them up for that?
1:44:52 Right. Am I setting them up? What is the circuit?
1:44:55 I’m always thinking about this. What is the circuit I’m building with my kid?
1:44:58 So, for example, my kid recently had swim in middle school
1:45:02 and I saw he forgot his bathing suit, right?
1:45:06 And like, I probably could have like jumped in my car or something.
1:45:08 And I’m just like, OK, what’s the circuit?
1:45:10 And this is not have to be like all the time.
1:45:12 But in general, it’s like, OK, he forgets, you know,
1:45:15 and then someone remembers for him, OK, right?
1:45:18 He forgets he doesn’t have his bathing suit.
1:45:23 His swim, his gym teacher is like, oh, like, you need to have your baby.
1:45:27 Whatever happens.
1:45:28 And my guess is then he’d be more likely to remember, right?
1:45:32 As long as I’m stepping in and doing the remembering for my kid,
1:45:37 I don’t know why we think our kid is going to start doing the remembering for themselves.
1:45:41 It actually reminds me of the towel.
1:45:42 Maybe I’d say seems hard to remember.
1:45:44 How could you remember how?
1:45:45 And he’d be like, oh, maybe I’ll do the towel thing.
1:45:47 I’ll put it. I think a great idea, right?
1:45:49 So I think one of the things you have to think about
1:45:50 if we don’t want to have this like prolonged adolescence in our kid is this.
1:45:53 How am I scaffolding skills that my kid can have?
1:45:58 How am I helping them build independence?
1:46:00 And in what ways am I picking short term gains?
1:46:04 But at the expense of maybe long term skills.
1:46:08 And we all have to give ourselves permission to do that sometimes.
1:46:09 Sometimes you’re like, I just have to make it easy.
1:46:11 Like, don’t forget your homework or something, right?
1:46:13 But I think in general, the pattern, I think that’s something we can really reflect on
1:46:17 and then maybe shift, you know, a little bit with our kids.
1:46:20 What do you think about competitive sports?
1:46:23 What do I think about competitive sports?
1:46:25 I mean, you know, I’m not sure how exact I had to answer that.
1:46:28 But I don’t know if you’re there’s a lot of things that I start thinking about.
1:46:32 I think about how early kids are, you know, I think pushed into these
1:46:36 like super intense sports where I feel like when I was going up,
1:46:39 kids did a lot of different things.
1:46:40 And then I’m also thinking, I don’t know if this is where you’re thinking about
1:46:42 about parents, parents’ relationship with their kids, athleticism and what,
1:46:48 you know, goes on in the sidelines and kind of, I think, in a way, like our
1:46:52 unlived dreams, you know, translated into pressure
1:46:55 and identification with our kids, you know, and it’s almost hard to separate
1:47:00 who’s engaging in the competitive sport like my kid or me.
1:47:06 And so I think, you know, I think what’s important as much as possible
1:47:11 is to try to really like center our kids in this.
1:47:13 Like, what are they like?
1:47:15 What are they interested in?
1:47:16 Are they seeming to get something out of this?
1:47:18 What’s their wish? What’s my wish?
1:47:20 Is it their wish because they’re interested?
1:47:21 Are they just trying to like they kind of notice how happy this seems to make me
1:47:25 and they want to be like a good, you know, daughter in my eyes?
1:47:28 Like those questions are helpful.
1:47:29 Two final questions before we wrap up here.
1:47:32 Why do we as parents wrap up so much of our identity?
1:47:39 And this goes back to a few things we talked about earlier in our kids.
1:47:43 And we sort of like want to live vicariously through them in some ways
1:47:49 or one up other parents or think our way is better.
1:47:52 And it’s sort of like the worst part of ourselves.
1:47:55 And, you know, I noticed this a lot with other people, probably not myself.
1:48:01 And I’m definitely I’m sure I do it sometimes.
1:48:03 But we wrap ourselves up in our kids’ successes or failures.
1:48:07 And we think we’re good parents if they’re doing good
1:48:11 and we’re bad parents if they’re doing bad.
1:48:12 And I think probably for a number of reasons,
1:48:15 I think we’re just like very unprepared psychologically
1:48:19 for what happens when we become a parent, you know, our kids come along.
1:48:24 And so many of our on the dreams are insecurities, things we never got to do.
1:48:30 We don’t even realize how we see our kids as like a channel to like achieve those things.
1:48:35 And we think we can like heal ourselves, you know, through through our kids.
1:48:41 As opposed to the opposite journey, which is like pausing and instead of gazing outward
1:48:46 like to our kids to fix them almost gazing inward, like, wait, what’s going on for me here?
1:48:50 I think everyone who’s becoming a parent should probably take time
1:48:54 to reflect on like, what are my insecurities?
1:48:55 What are the parts of life that I, you know, regret or didn’t get?
1:48:59 Or, you know, did I never become a D1 athlete?
1:49:02 And what would that become?
1:49:03 What would be like if I had a kid, like what’s probably going to come out, right?
1:49:06 I think we’re kind of unprepared for the amount of self reflection
1:49:09 being a like very present parent who’s actually centered on our kid requires.
1:49:13 Yeah, that’s so fascinating.
1:49:15 As you said that, it’s sort of like jogged this thought, which was,
1:49:19 you know, at some point in our probably 35 to 50 age range, we’re like, OK,
1:49:26 well, this is where I’m at in life.
1:49:28 But now there’s this do over, right?
1:49:30 Everything is possible again with with children.
1:49:32 And so I might not have got all the things that I wanted to get out of life.
1:49:36 But now all of a sudden I can put all of my pressure on you as a child in some ways.
1:49:42 I’m always, you know, I don’t know if you read Far from the Tree by Andrew Solomon,
1:49:46 but to me, the prologue, the first page, like, I think every parent should read.
1:49:49 And it just starts with him saying there’s no such thing as a reproduction.
1:49:53 Like the word reproduction is a fantasy.
1:49:57 That’s like you produce, you produce.
1:50:00 And what he says about parenting, he goes,
1:50:03 what parenting really is is being forever cast into our relationship with a stranger.
1:50:07 And every time I just think I just think so many of our struggles
1:50:10 as parents come down to that, like we don’t reproduce, we produce.
1:50:13 And this kid is a stranger and our job is to kind of get to know them.
1:50:15 But the word reproduction brings like right from the start,
1:50:19 brings up very different fantasies for us.
1:50:21 That’s beautiful.
1:50:23 And the final question we always ask every guest is,
1:50:26 what is success for you?
1:50:28 I think about success as I’m being able to like live in line with values.
1:50:34 And to me, that’s like feels good.
1:50:36 Like when you’re aware of what your values are
1:50:39 and you’re able to kind of act and behave most of the time
1:50:42 in a way that’s really in line with them.
1:50:45 I think this really circles back to our conversation.
1:50:47 I think our ability to do that really depends on our emotion,
1:50:51 regulation skills, on our strong relationships, you know,
1:50:54 about reflecting and being curious about why we do the things we do.
1:50:58 But to me, like I feel really successful
1:51:01 in days when I feel like, oh, and like I’m living in line
1:51:04 with the things that I value, I’m showing up in the world in that way.
1:51:07 It’s a beautiful way to end this.
1:51:09 Thank you so much.
1:51:11 Thank you.
1:51:13 What an incredible conversation with Dr.
1:51:17 Becky, I think the two biggest things that I took away from that,
1:51:23 the three biggest things actually were her solution
1:51:27 to approaching challenging conversations
1:51:31 when somebody brings something up, which is I’m glad you’re telling me about this.
1:51:36 I believe you and tell me more that three steps, those are amazing.
1:51:41 AVP, it relates to AVP, which we sort of hit on on the podcast,
1:51:46 which I thought was incredible.
1:51:47 The second one that I thought was really interesting.
1:51:50 The second point, the big point that I took away from this was
1:51:53 it’s me and you and me and my kids, me and your partner,
1:51:58 whoever you’re with against the problem.
1:52:01 And that mindset shift is huge, which is you’re not the problem.
1:52:06 We have a problem and we’re trying to solve this problem together.
1:52:10 That mindset shift is incredibly powerful.
1:52:14 And the third thing I really took away from this.
1:52:19 Was just how much we’re putting on our teens
1:52:23 when it comes to self-regulating around video games,
1:52:25 which is something she mentioned casually.
1:52:27 And I had never really thought about it in this way, which is silly.
1:52:30 Because when I go to work, I usually leave my phone in a different room
1:52:34 if I need to concentrate.
1:52:36 And I do that because I’ve developed this physical solution
1:52:39 and environmental solution to this problem.
1:52:41 I don’t want to focus on my phone, I want to focus on work,
1:52:43 so I’m not going to have my phone with me.
1:52:45 I can’t even control my impulses around my phone,
1:52:48 which is exactly why I’m doing that.
1:52:49 Yet we expect our kids to be able to do that.
1:52:52 And I thought a little bit about the currency thing.
1:52:55 I’m going to have to chew on this a little bit.
1:52:57 I do that sort of in my worst moments, I guess,
1:53:00 where I’m like, you can have this, if you do this.
1:53:02 And I don’t think that’s the I want to get away from that as a parent.
1:53:06 So I hope you took away something super valuable from this conversation.
1:53:10 If you’re watching this on YouTube, leave a note below.
1:53:13 Let me know what the most valuable part was for you.
1:53:16 If you’re listening to it, send me an email, Shane@farnhamstreetblog.com
1:53:21 or and just let me know what you thought
1:53:24 was the most useful part of this conversation.
1:53:26 It’s something I want to explore more.
1:53:28 So if you have questions, let me know.
1:53:30 Hopefully I’ll talk to more people about this stuff.
1:53:32 And I really appreciate you listening.
1:53:34 And as you can tell, when I say let’s listen and learn,
1:53:37 it’s time to listen and learn.
1:53:39 You’re learning with me on this journey and I appreciate you.
1:53:43 Thanks for listening and learning with us for a complete list of episodes,
1:53:59 show notes, transcripts and more.
1:54:02 Go to fs.blog/podcast or just Google the knowledge project.
1:54:07 The Farnham Street blog is also where you can learn more about my new book,
1:54:11 “Clear Thinking – Turning Ordinary Moments into Extraordinary Results”.
1:54:15 It’s a transformative guide that hands you the tools to master your fate,
1:54:20 sharpen your decision making and set yourself up for unparalleled success.
1:54:25 Learn more at fs.blog/clear.
1:54:28 Until next time.
1:54:30 [Music]
1:54:41 (soft music)
1:54:44 [BLANK_AUDIO]
Dr. Becky Kennedy shares the crucial life and parenting skills you need but didn’t get taught on regulating emotions, setting boundaries, and the best sentence you can say when a partner tells you something difficult.
This episode applies to EVERY relationship in your life, not just your kids.
Get ready to parent more effectively with less stress, repair after a disagreement, regulate emotions, and unlock the next level in all of your relationships.
Dubbed the “The Millennial Parenting Whisperer” by TIME Magazine, Dr. Kennedy is the #1 New York Times bestselling author of Good Inside: A Guide to Becoming the Parent You Want to Be. She also hosts “Good Inside with Dr Becky,” the top kids and family show on Apple Podcasts.
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