#439 – Craig Jones: Jiu Jitsu, $2 Million Prize, CJI, ADCC, Ukraine & Trolling

0:00:05 The following is a conversation with Craig Jones, martial artist, world traveler, and
0:00:10 one of the funniest people in the sport of submission grappling. While he does make fun
0:00:15 of himself a lot, he is legitimately one of the greatest submission grapplers in the world.
0:00:23 And underneath the veil of nonstop sexualized Aussie humor and incessant online trolling,
0:00:28 he is truly a kind-hearted human being who’s trying to do good in the world.
0:00:36 Sometimes he does so through a bit of controversy and chaos, like with the new CJI tournament
0:00:42 that has over two million dollars in prize money. And it’s coming up this Friday and Saturday.
0:00:50 Yes, the same weekend as the prestigious ADCC tournament. The goal of CJI tournament is to
0:00:57 grow the sport, so you’ll be able to watch it for free online, live on YouTube and other places.
0:01:04 All ticket profits go to charity, mainly to cancer research. So I encourage you to support
0:01:09 the mission of this tournament by buying tickets and going to see the event in person.
0:01:16 Craig gave me a special link that gives you a 50% discount on the tickets. Go to lexfreement.com/cji
0:01:22 and it should forward you to the right place. They’re trying to sell the last few tickets now.
0:01:27 It’s a good cause, go buy some. And also let me say, as a fan of the sport,
0:01:33 I highly encourage you to watch both CJI and ADCC and to celebrate athletes competing in both.
0:01:40 From CJI with Nicky Ryan, Nicky Rod, Bertola Brothers, Fionne Davis, Mackenzie Dern and more,
0:01:49 to ADCC with Gordon Ryan, Nicholas Margalli, Giancarlo Budoni, Raphael Lovato Jr., Mika Gavau and more.
0:01:54 I have a lot of respect for everyone involved. I train with many of them regularly and consider
0:02:00 many of them friends, including Craig, Gordon, and of course, John Donahar, who I will talk to
0:02:07 many, many more times on this podcast. And now a quick few second mention of each sponsor.
0:02:11 Check them out in the description. It’s the best way to support this podcast.
0:02:18 We got A-Sleep for naps, Element for hydration, BetterHelp for mental health, Netsuite for business
0:02:26 stuff, Shopify for selling stuff online, and ExpressVPN for privacy on the interwebs.
0:02:30 Choose wisely, my friends. Also, there’s a bunch of ways to get in touch with me. If you want to
0:02:36 give feedback, go to lexfreedmen.com/survey. If you want to submit questions or videos or
0:02:42 call-ins for me to answer on the podcast, go to lexfreedmen.com/ama. And there’s a bunch
0:02:47 of other ways at lexfreedmen.com/contact. And now on to the full ad reads. As always,
0:02:51 no ads in the middle. I try to make this interesting, but if you skip them,
0:02:55 please still check out our sponsors. I enjoy their stuff. Maybe you will too.
0:03:04 This episode is brought to you by A-Sleep and it’s Pod 4 Ultra. It is a pretty interesting mystery
0:03:10 of what’s going on in the brain while we sleep because it’s not like the thing shuts off. It’s
0:03:19 actually a pretty active and dynamic process. It’s also humbling that we need sleep. It is
0:03:27 a little death. It is a thing like food that our body requires. And that to me is humbling.
0:03:35 It’s another reminder that we’re mortal, another reminder that we’re merely human,
0:03:40 that we’re merely a biological organism. In fact, it’s a reminder that not just our
0:03:43 organism, our body, but the entirety of human civilization is fragile.
0:03:52 I’ve been studying a lot about both ancient civilizations and the modern civilizations
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0:04:35 This episode is also brought to you by Element, my daily zero sugar and delicious electrolyte mix.
0:04:39 It is one of the most delicious things I consume in a day on days like this.
0:04:45 So yesterday I had a really hard training session in Jiu-Jitsu. I did, I don’t know,
0:04:52 10, 11 rounds maybe. And it’s just all the water from my body is gone because I usually don’t drink
0:04:56 water when I’m training. Not for any particular reason, but just because I don’t want to take
0:05:02 a break. I really want to go to a place where I’m exhausted. And so once I’m done with training,
0:05:12 the level of deliciousness that a cold water with a watermelon salt powder from Element
0:05:19 is difficult to describe. It’s really, really refreshing. And I found that if I don’t
0:05:22 consume electrolytes after training like that, like I started getting a headache,
0:05:30 I just start feeling off. And so replenishing the electrolytes after is really important.
0:05:35 And of course, I also make sure I drink element beforehand as well. But yeah, all that is important
0:05:40 to support the body when you’re doing those difficult training sessions. And it is one
0:05:47 of the things that allows me to escape whatever the trauma that’s going on in my mind and the
0:05:53 community, the art of it. I love it all. Get a sample pack for free with any purchase,
0:06:01 try it at drinkelement.com/lex. This episode is also brought to you by BetterHelp, spelled H-E-L-P
0:06:07 Help. They figure out what you need to match it with the licensed therapist in under 48 hours.
0:06:14 I think in this episode, Craig brings up doing couples therapy with Gordon. You know, I’m a
0:06:20 big fan of those guys training with them and just the way they approach this really complicated art
0:06:28 and their ability to achieve sort of world-class level and consistently innovate. I’ll innovate
0:06:33 everybody else. It’s so fascinating to watch. So part of me hates that there’s a shit talking
0:06:40 going on online. I understand it’s part of the sport, but I do hope that there is at least amongst
0:06:47 the fans more celebration of the athletes involved. And I’m now still working through the footage of
0:06:54 the Olympics for Judo and wrestling. It’s just, I love all the sort of one-on-one combat sports
0:06:59 and all of the Olympics in general and all sportsmen. I love football and basketball,
0:07:05 Steve Curry’s performance at this Olympics is just like legendary. You can’t look away.
0:07:11 That guy was just on fire. I love it when an athlete steps up and it’s their day
0:07:17 and it’s just perfection. Anyway, check out BetterHelp at betterhelp.com/lex and save on
0:07:24 your first month. That’s betterhelp.com/lex. This episode is also brought to you by Netsuit,
0:07:30 an all-in-one cloud business management system. It is the machine within the machine of a business
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0:07:44 All the messy stuff. It really was fascinating to watch the rate of progress that XAI is doing
0:07:50 and Tesla is doing on building up their compute center. It’s fascinating to see the process of a
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0:08:16 you remove the bottlenecks and doing so at a rapid rate and iterate, iterate, iterate. All of that,
0:08:20 that’s the difference between successful businesses and not or not just successful but
0:08:26 revolutionary businesses. It truly is beautiful to watch the art of cutting through the bullshaded
0:08:32 bureaucracy. It really is beautiful. And yeah, you should have the right tools for the job and
0:08:41 Netsuit is good. And Netsuit is trusted by 37,000 companies that have upgraded to it.
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0:08:55 This episode is brought to you by Shopify, a platform designed for anyone to sell anywhere
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0:09:14 because a lot of people have been throwing around the word communism and fascism,
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0:09:32 historical meaning behind the words, the economic system, the political system, implications of those
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0:10:53 communism but totalitarian regimes, often these utilize mass surveillance and not just totalitarian
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0:12:13 And now, dear friends, I invite you all to come to the pool with Craig Jones and me.
0:12:27 When you brought the $1 million in cash on Rogan’s podcast, did you have security with you?
0:12:32 We had security, but only by Joe Rogan’s request, because he said, “You’re really going to bring
0:12:37 it? Do you have security?” I said, “No.” He’s like, “Don’t worry about it. I’ll send my security.”
0:12:38 So you were going to deal with our security?
0:12:45 I thought, I mean, I was told not to tell anyone, but I sent pictures of it to everyone I know.
0:12:46 Yeah.
0:12:47 So that was probably a security risk.
0:12:50 Yeah. So it’s just you in a car with a bag of cash?
0:12:55 Yeah. It was a company that sponsors me, shuffle.com. It was their friend, a friend of
0:13:00 their. So a guy that’s never met me before just took the risk to show up to a stranger’s house
0:13:04 with $1 million in cash to bring to Joe Rogan. It was a big risk of him.
0:13:06 And you just put it in the car and drove it?
0:13:07 Drove it over there, yeah.
0:13:09 Yeah. Well, no security except Joe.
0:13:09 Except Joe.
0:13:10 That’s common sense.
0:13:13 And then Joe said he’d never seen $1 million before.
0:13:13 Yeah.
0:13:14 But I don’t know if I believe him.
0:13:19 That’s what everyone says. That’s what Pablo Escobar probably says also.
0:13:24 What’s your relationship with risk, especially with the risk of death?
0:13:26 I would say I’m very risk averse.
0:13:28 You are. No, you’re not. That’s a lie.
0:13:34 My relationship with risk, I like a bit of excitement. I like a bit of adventure.
0:13:39 I’m more about the adventure, but I will not let the risk get in the way of it.
0:13:42 And also, obviously, I just got back from Ukraine.
0:13:48 I’m happy to take a few risks if it’s part of what the locals want me to do.
0:13:51 You know what I mean? Like in Kazakhstan, we did some things that were dangerous.
0:13:55 Like if the locals are like, come along, join in on this activity,
0:13:58 I feel personally obligated to go with them.
0:14:01 So it’s not about the risk. Like you’re not attracted to risk.
0:14:02 You’re attracted to adventure.
0:14:07 And the risk is the thing you don’t give a damn about if it comes along with it.
0:14:10 Sometimes the best adventures involve the most risk, unfortunately.
0:14:14 Speaking of which, you went to Ukraine, like you said, twice recently.
0:14:15 Twice. Really pushed the limit there.
0:14:17 Including to the front.
0:14:18 To the front.
0:14:23 Tell me the full story of that from the beginning.
0:14:24 How did you end up in Ukraine?
0:14:27 So we’re in Kazakhstan. We’re doing some filming in Kazakhstan.
0:14:32 And obviously, Borat’s still a very traumatic memory for them.
0:14:37 And some of my jokes felt like they don’t go as well in that neck of the woods.
0:14:39 So we had some difficulty filming out there.
0:14:42 So we filmed this horse game. Have you ever heard of Kokba?
0:14:43 Thanks to you, yes.
0:14:47 It’s a game, a very, very old game. They cut a goat or a sheep.
0:14:51 I didn’t get too close to look at it, but they cut its head and legs off.
0:14:53 And they use it as some form of bull.
0:14:59 And then they’ll have like up to a thousand guys on horses violently trying to pick this up
0:15:01 and drop it in the other end’s goals, basically.
0:15:02 The goals used to be concrete.
0:15:04 Now it’s just a tarp.
0:15:09 But local business owners will throw down huge amounts of money for the winners.
0:15:12 And these horses have been trained from a very young age.
0:15:13 The riders have been trained.
0:15:16 I’ve never ridden a horse before.
0:15:20 We wanted to film something that made it look like I was going to go into the horse pit,
0:15:21 into the Kokba pit.
0:15:29 However, the drunk stuntman that we used just decided that when he took my horse reins,
0:15:33 he would take me straight into the pit instead of ending the shot there.
0:15:37 So I was in there amongst, I guess, the horse riders, the Kokba riders.
0:15:39 And we weren’t leaving.
0:15:42 We just were in there for quite a while.
0:15:43 And he was just, he could talk a little bit.
0:15:45 He could talk English pretty well, actually.
0:15:47 And he’s like, oh, I thought you’d want to check it out from the inside.
0:15:53 And then while we’re in there, someone picked up the sort of carcass
0:15:55 and a wave of horse riders came at me.
0:15:59 I was quite concerned at that point because they’re bashing into each other.
0:16:01 Obviously, the anger they’re seeing a foreigner in there.
0:16:06 I was wearing like, basically biggie, smalls, koogee, gekku looking sweater.
0:16:07 So I stood out.
0:16:10 They definitely didn’t like that I was participating in a game
0:16:12 that they probably trained their whole life for.
0:16:15 And that amount of money they could win is very, very significant.
0:16:16 And there’s me in there.
0:16:20 They’re also pointing out Borat, Borat, I think I was making Borat jokes,
0:16:24 which again, very traumatic memory for the people at Kazakhstan.
0:16:25 Were you making Borat jokes?
0:16:28 No, but I guess it’s the same type of humor.
0:16:32 But just, I guess, I’m not pretending to be Kazakh.
0:16:36 I’m just there being an idiot and enjoying the local culture.
0:16:37 But we were over there in Kazakhstan.
0:16:38 We did that.
0:16:39 That was obviously a bit risky.
0:16:41 Did they learn to love you?
0:16:43 I think they learned to love me and then to hate me again.
0:16:47 So it was like a bit of a all-encompassing relationship for the Kazakh people.
0:16:49 But we basically abandoned ship.
0:16:53 It was proven too difficult to film some things, some sensitive subjects over there.
0:16:55 And I said, where should we go next?
0:16:58 And I just looked at the map and I was like, we’re near Ukraine.
0:17:02 Ukraine was a place that I’ve been offered to teach a jiu-jitsu seminar
0:17:07 prior to, I guess, the war commencing, the full-scale war commencing.
0:17:10 And we’re looking for a bit of adventure, something interesting to film,
0:17:11 something to follow in the news.
0:17:14 Obviously, very controversial in the news.
0:17:15 People have very strong opinions.
0:17:17 And I was like, let’s go over there.
0:17:18 Let’s throw a charity event.
0:17:19 Let’s do something.
0:17:22 Let’s train with the people and really experience with ourselves.
0:17:24 So we set up a seminar.
0:17:27 Turned out to be the biggest seminar for jiu-jitsu in Ukraine history,
0:17:30 which is wild, considering obviously they are at war.
0:17:32 But everyone came together to support it.
0:17:36 And one of the soldiers there, one of my friends there,
0:17:39 a good friend now who’s on the front line, he made a comment on there.
0:17:45 And he said, hey, this is a seminar to donate profits to the soldiers,
0:17:47 but we’re on the front line.
0:17:49 And I was like, you know what?
0:17:51 I’ll come to you.
0:17:53 And he’s like, listen, I can’t promise you’ll survive,
0:17:55 but I’ll promise you’ll have a good time.
0:17:57 And I said, that’s all I needed to hear.
0:18:02 So we connected and my friend Roman, we went really, really close.
0:18:06 I think we’re at the closest point, seven kilometers from the front line.
0:18:10 Obviously very surreal experience to be over there,
0:18:13 seeing basically how the battles fought with all the drones.
0:18:14 How long ago was this?
0:18:16 I think it would have been March or April.
0:18:18 So we went there.
0:18:20 We went basically spent two nights up on the front line,
0:18:25 went back to Kiev, and that was it for that trip.
0:18:30 In terms of crazy stuff that happened, obviously just the people living.
0:18:33 Like you download the air defense tracker.
0:18:37 So at any time there could be an air siren going off and air alert on your phone.
0:18:42 Could be like drones heading your way, planes are in the air, missiles flying.
0:18:44 And then those missiles will change direction and stuff.
0:18:49 So the air alert, you don’t know if it’s heading a different direction,
0:18:50 but they just sort of warn everyone.
0:18:54 So you live under a constant state of fear basically.
0:18:57 And then on that first trip, the heaviest moment was,
0:19:00 I was going downstairs in the hotel to work out,
0:19:02 which is honestly a rare thing these days.
0:19:02 Something healthy with myself.
0:19:04 You working out?
0:19:05 Getting in the gym pumping some iron.
0:19:09 And this was divine intervention that a hypersonic missile was shot down
0:19:13 by the Patriot defense system just like five minutes from the hotel.
0:19:18 So the whole hotel and the attached gym just shook like crazy.
0:19:21 And some people started freaking out.
0:19:23 Most people went to leave to go outside,
0:19:24 which I don’t think is recommended,
0:19:26 but you want to see what’s going on out there.
0:19:27 This was in Kiev.
0:19:28 This was in Kiev.
0:19:29 So it got shot down.
0:19:33 And then some of the local troops actually took me to the site
0:19:36 of where just part of the missile would landed in the ground
0:19:39 and left this huge sort of indentation.
0:19:41 They’d already cleared up most of the,
0:19:44 I guess, shrapnel from the missile.
0:19:46 I don’t know if I should or if I was legally allowed to do this,
0:19:49 but I took some of that missile back home with me.
0:19:51 I don’t know where I left it actually.
0:19:54 But I thought maybe that would raise some alarm bells and airport scans,
0:19:56 but I took it regardless.
0:20:00 And that was basically the craziest thing that happened on that first trip.
0:20:02 The Patriot defense system is incredible.
0:20:05 It’s an incredible piece of technology.
0:20:06 That’s from the United States.
0:20:09 It’s expensive, but it’s incredible.
0:20:11 And then so that’s protecting Kiev.
0:20:13 That’s protecting Kiev, yeah.
0:20:16 That was at the time where US hadn’t voted to, I guess,
0:20:19 keep funding the weapons over there.
0:20:22 So it was kind of a tense moment because I think,
0:20:23 I don’t know, everyone was thinking like,
0:20:26 when do those air defense missiles run out?
0:20:28 So that was a heavy moment for me thinking,
0:20:30 look at what it shot out of the sky.
0:20:33 Like imagine if they didn’t have that.
0:20:36 But we, yeah, that was probably the most surreal moment.
0:20:41 But Kiev, largely, life goes on most of the time as per normal.
0:20:45 I was faced with crazy messages and comments,
0:20:49 even just posting that video, like I’m getting paid by Ukraine and stuff.
0:20:53 And it’s just like, people just don’t understand that life has to go on.
0:20:56 Like Kiev’s here, the front lines far away.
0:20:59 The cities have to largely try to operate as normal,
0:21:04 or just life will not go on in those villages and cities.
0:21:05 Well, it’s human nature as well.
0:21:06 It’s not just Kiev.
0:21:07 It’s Harkev.
0:21:08 It’s even Donbas.
0:21:14 Harrison, people get accustomed to work quickly.
0:21:17 Because it’s impossible to suffer for prolonged periods of time.
0:21:21 So you adjust and you appreciate the things you still have.
0:21:22 Yeah, it’s some bolder moves out there.
0:21:26 I love seeing people that just crazy stuff’s going on from the war.
0:21:27 And they don’t even react to it.
0:21:29 They don’t go to the bomb shelter.
0:21:32 It’s like a bolder move, like I’m not going to change my lifestyle.
0:21:34 Actually, on that first trip as well,
0:21:37 something else that I probably shouldn’t have been allowed to do was go to Chernobyl.
0:21:37 Yeah.
0:21:42 So Chernobyl, I believe troops came through Belarus.
0:21:44 And there was some fighting going on in Chernobyl.
0:21:48 I think the whole world got concerned at that point if any sort of radiation leaked.
0:21:55 But Chernobyl, as it stands, the troops back down and it’s completely covered in mines.
0:21:58 Very, very difficult to go to Chernobyl.
0:22:02 Basically, as a tourist or as, I guess, an idiot like myself,
0:22:06 should really probably not be allowed in a place like that.
0:22:07 But we were able to get there.
0:22:09 We passed four security checkpoints.
0:22:11 It took two attempts.
0:22:14 First time we tried to go in, there was the Special Forces guy.
0:22:16 We cleared two security gates.
0:22:21 Then they stopped us and basically threatened us with arrest.
0:22:22 I, rightfully so.
0:22:24 Really have no business going to Chernobyl.
0:22:26 We made a connection.
0:22:27 I won’t say this connection was,
0:22:31 but he had heard about what I had done sort of with a charity event
0:22:35 and opened some doors for us to be able to go to Chernobyl.
0:22:37 So we got to see Chernobyl.
0:22:39 We had some filming restrictions there just because
0:22:43 it was a crazy military sort of conflict at one point.
0:22:45 And we got to actually see Chernobyl.
0:22:47 Chernobyl has always been a dream of mine to see
0:22:48 because it’s just such an interesting place.
0:22:52 And to see it under these conditions, very, very strange.
0:22:53 Yeah. What was that like?
0:22:55 So there’s no civilians there now.
0:22:57 It’s just completely empty.
0:22:59 I guess it’s kind of like the fantasy you have.
0:23:03 I imagine people going to Chernobyl back in the tourist days
0:23:06 when it was a tourist spot and it would be busy full of tourists.
0:23:08 We got basically a private tour.
0:23:12 So we got to really feel that abandoned sort of vibes.
0:23:14 I guess I was interested in it from playing Call of Duty.
0:23:17 And then Chernobyl series, all the documentaries and stuff,
0:23:20 but very, very strange place to go visit.
0:23:24 And it is now a minefield like a lot of parts of Ukraine.
0:23:30 That’s one of the dark, terrifying aspects of wars,
0:23:33 how many mines are left, even when the war ends.
0:23:36 For decades after, there’s mines everywhere
0:23:38 because demining is extremely difficult.
0:23:44 And that could continually kill people.
0:23:47 I don’t think it’ll be a tourist spot for a very long time
0:23:49 because if you were thinking about areas to demine
0:23:52 when the conflict ends, an area where if you accidentally trigger a mine
0:23:54 could cause a radiation leak,
0:23:55 it’s probably going to be very low on the list.
0:24:01 So tourism for Chernobyl, who knows how long until that returns.
0:24:03 What do you think you were able to get to Chernobyl?
0:24:09 Why don’t you think the Ukrainian people, the Ukrainian soldiers,
0:24:10 don’t see you as a threat?
0:24:13 Maybe they were hoping I did step on a mine.
0:24:15 Maybe my jokes didn’t go too well there.
0:24:17 So your connection was actually Putin.
0:24:18 He was trying to get rid of you.
0:24:18 Putin, yeah.
0:24:21 Now, I don’t know.
0:24:23 I mean, we felt pretty safe when we were there.
0:24:24 There was an air alert went off.
0:24:28 They were kind of more concerned with me dying
0:24:29 just for the PR side of things.
0:24:32 It’s like Australian tourists.
0:24:36 In one of your videos, I actually heard the Ukrainian language
0:24:38 you were talking about, we don’t want to lose an athlete.
0:24:39 That’s what they’re saying.
0:24:44 As you’re loading the rocket launcher.
0:24:45 Oh yeah, the rocket launcher.
0:24:47 I shot a rocket launcher with the troops on the first trip,
0:24:50 but the second trip I went back to,
0:24:53 which was only maybe four to five weeks ago,
0:24:55 this time we went to some craziest spots.
0:24:58 So we went to Odessa, which has been hit a ton.
0:25:01 I really enjoyed the video of old man stretching
0:25:03 and exercising on the Odessa shore.
0:25:06 Yeah, what is that, local custom?
0:25:10 Well, Odessa people are known historically to be wild.
0:25:11 That was wild.
0:25:13 It was abrasive to the eyes, but I appreciated it.
0:25:16 Especially a middle-aged man in underwear
0:25:19 with a beer belly doing a Sundance at dusk.
0:25:21 That would frighten many people.
0:25:24 Yeah, the battleship would turn around.
0:25:26 Yeah, so where else?
0:25:28 We went, yeah, so we went Odessa.
0:25:29 We briefly went back to Kiev.
0:25:34 So I made a connection with the police chief
0:25:36 for basically the entire country last time.
0:25:40 And he had said to me that if I wanted to go somewhere
0:25:43 sort of really heavy in terms of action,
0:25:45 we could go to Kurson and he’s like,
0:25:48 “Oh, personally escort you to Kurson.”
0:25:50 And I was just like, “Well, here we have
0:25:52 an invitation for adventure.
0:25:54 I think it’s a great idea to go.”
0:25:55 And I thought, “You know what?
0:25:58 I’ll completely lie to my cameraman
0:26:00 and tell him it’s a safe trip to go on
0:26:03 so that he can pass that information on to his fiance
0:26:05 and she won’t have any concerns.”
0:26:09 So we basically take this huge journey
0:26:10 all the way down to Kurson.
0:26:13 We switch at a city outside.
0:26:14 I can’t remember the name,
0:26:16 but we had to switch to sort of armored vehicles.
0:26:18 And I remember the guy that picked us up there said,
0:26:22 “Hey, give me a phone number for someone to call
0:26:23 to recover your bodies.”
0:26:25 And he said that in a joking way,
0:26:26 but I think it was serious.
0:26:27 But I said, “Just leave it.
0:26:29 I don’t think they need it.
0:26:30 I don’t think we much left,
0:26:31 probably if we get hit over there.”
0:26:34 But we go basically into Kurson.
0:26:37 I think Kurson’s population used to be like 250,000.
0:26:41 Now it’s basically all military down to 50,000.
0:26:43 So we went into the police,
0:26:45 basically stationed in the bunker underneath
0:26:46 the top of the building was destroyed.
0:26:51 And then one of the local guys just took us on a city tour,
0:26:53 which again, we had some filming restrictions
0:26:56 because obviously anytime something’s hit,
0:26:59 I guess the other side wants to be able to see
0:27:00 what damage has been done.
0:27:04 So if you take any footage of recently destroyed buildings,
0:27:05 that’s going to help them recalibrate
0:27:08 and target the next shot.
0:27:10 So Kurson being so heavily hit,
0:27:14 it’s basically within range of every single thing Russia has,
0:27:16 every form of weapon, drones.
0:27:18 Before we took the tour,
0:27:20 he put some drone blocking things on top of the car,
0:27:22 which didn’t look reassuring.
0:27:24 He also took a helmet out the back of the car,
0:27:26 which I thought he was going to give to me.
0:27:28 But he just threw it in the back of the pickup truck
0:27:31 and said, “Oh, you won’t need this, you’ll be dead anyway.”
0:27:34 And I was like, “Oh, I’ve made a great life decision
0:27:36 with this little Kurson tour.”
0:27:38 But then we took a tour of the city
0:27:40 and Kurson used to be kind of like a beautiful
0:27:43 beach city by the Nipro River.
0:27:46 But basically it’s just the river that separates Russia
0:27:52 from I guess the Russian land they’ve taken from Kurson.
0:27:55 So Kurson split across that river
0:27:57 and there’s just Russians on the other side of the river
0:27:58 and Ukrainians on this side.
0:28:00 So very, very dangerous spot.
0:28:02 Kharkiv makes a lot of press
0:28:04 because of the long-range missiles that hit,
0:28:06 but Kurson’s just being hit all the time.
0:28:10 So we took this tour, we went along the river,
0:28:12 we went to within one kilometer of the front line.
0:28:14 So that was the closest we got.
0:28:18 After this point, we heard artillery strike.
0:28:22 And because you’re in an armored vehicle,
0:28:24 it sounds further away than it is.
0:28:26 Obviously the sound doesn’t get in.
0:28:29 So I thought it sounded far away.
0:28:31 We could see some smoke that actually appeared
0:28:32 closer in the distance.
0:28:35 The guy driving us took us to a point
0:28:37 where a large building was blocking us
0:28:40 from I guess the angle at which the missile would have came from.
0:28:43 And I thought everything was cool.
0:28:45 I thought it must have been off in the distance.
0:28:49 And then we heard two more strikes hit very, very close.
0:28:50 They sounded really loud.
0:28:54 And then I think he’s radioing to see if everything’s safe
0:28:56 if we can leave this point.
0:28:57 And then we basically raced back.
0:29:00 But I started to realize we’re in danger at any point
0:29:02 where he really sped the car up
0:29:04 or sort of took sort of evasive movements in the car.
0:29:05 But we got out of there
0:29:08 and I think I had someone translate it later.
0:29:10 And basically, yeah, he was checking to see
0:29:11 if the roads were clear for us to leave.
0:29:14 Ultimately it ended up being someone died
0:29:17 and a few people injured from that blast,
0:29:20 which was less than half a kilometer from us.
0:29:22 And basically they were radioing saying,
0:29:24 “End the tour. Come back to the police station.”
0:29:29 Artillery is terrifying because they’re just shelling.
0:29:33 And it’s the destructive power of artillery is insane.
0:29:35 Yeah. And it’s constant all the time.
0:29:36 Yeah. And you hear that noise and you’re like,
0:29:37 “Is that coming or going?”
0:29:40 Very, very concerning.
0:29:42 Right. You don’t know.
0:29:42 Yeah, I’m–
0:29:43 You don’t know.
0:29:45 And just like that, it could be you.
0:29:46 And you’re gone.
0:29:48 Last time the village we went to,
0:29:53 basically it was the day we left.
0:29:54 So we stayed there overnight.
0:29:59 The day we left, it just started getting extremely shelled.
0:30:02 And the soldier we were with just took a selfie video of us.
0:30:04 And basically in the location we were in,
0:30:07 just hearing just artillery strike after artillery strike,
0:30:10 just being like, “Oh, you guys left and the fun began.”
0:30:12 So they take it in good spirit.
0:30:16 I was trying to use their energy to reassure myself.
0:30:17 But I guess when they see it every day,
0:30:21 it’s– they’re kind of more adjusted to it.
0:30:25 They’re not freaking out every time something crazy like that goes on.
0:30:26 Well, they have to, right?
0:30:29 They have to be in good spirit.
0:30:31 You have to be joking and laughing.
0:30:33 Yeah. The guys are always laughing and joking.
0:30:35 They were laughing and joking at me quite a bit,
0:30:37 holding weapons, trying to shoot weapons and stuff.
0:30:40 They got a lot of enjoyment out of me shooting the RPG.
0:30:42 Yeah. They’re probably still telling stories.
0:30:47 That crazy Australian-American that rolled in.
0:30:52 They helped me out, though, in my marketing campaign for the tournament.
0:30:56 We were able to secure a lot of classic Soviet Union car.
0:30:58 We towed it.
0:31:00 We painted it with the logos of the other event, the ADCC.
0:31:01 Yeah.
0:31:03 And we go to shoot some RPGs at it.
0:31:04 Yeah.
0:31:06 Great experience, great fun.
0:31:09 Yeah. It’s a very creative marketing campaign.
0:31:10 Very dangerous one.
0:31:12 I don’t think, like, Coco Peps are going to do that one.
0:31:13 So it’s very innovative.
0:31:14 There’s a bold move.
0:31:16 Luckily, they let me get away with posting it.
0:31:20 But when we were there, it was at a shooting range,
0:31:22 and we cleared them out for a while.
0:31:23 So we’d blown up the car.
0:31:24 We’d set it on fire.
0:31:25 We’d done all this sort of stuff.
0:31:28 I remember we were trying to blow it up.
0:31:29 It wasn’t quite hitting.
0:31:30 One of the missiles was lodged in under the car,
0:31:31 so it was kind of risky.
0:31:33 That could have gone off at any moment.
0:31:35 But we needed to get it to ignite.
0:31:37 We needed to get a shot where it was on fire.
0:31:41 The logo of the enemy tournament was basically on fire.
0:31:43 So we poured gasoline on it.
0:31:44 We shot the gasoline tank.
0:31:46 That didn’t work.
0:31:48 That must be a movie trick or something.
0:31:52 And then we decided we had light on fire, a rag,
0:31:54 and just throw it into the blowing out back window.
0:31:57 So I’m with this guy, a special forces guy,
0:31:58 and we throw the rag in the back.
0:32:00 Like soaked in gasoline rag?
0:32:01 Yeah.
0:32:02 And we start running.
0:32:04 And he’s like, stop, stop.
0:32:05 He’s like, it didn’t go off.
0:32:06 So we’re sitting there quite close to the car,
0:32:10 lighting it, trying to light more as we walk back to the car.
0:32:12 And then we just hear the car ignite.
0:32:14 And he’s like, run, run, run.
0:32:17 So we came quite close to death already at that point.
0:32:20 But we wanted to get this shot with some photos
0:32:21 in front of the burning logos.
0:32:24 But we told the guys at the shooting range
0:32:27 to basically give us 10 minutes or so.
0:32:29 So we could take the photos.
0:32:32 I don’t know if they didn’t wait the full 10 minutes
0:32:33 or if we took too long,
0:32:36 but they started firing at the targets anyway.
0:32:39 And then the ricochets were flying very, very close to us.
0:32:41 Over our head, one landed right by my leg.
0:32:43 We’re like, shit, we better get out of here.
0:32:46 Obviously not much safety concerns at that point.
0:32:49 But we survived basically artillery strikes.
0:32:51 We survived a bit of friendly fire
0:32:52 with the bullets coming our way.
0:32:54 But again, I was strangely calm
0:32:55 because the other guys were calm.
0:32:57 But then afterwards they said to me,
0:32:59 they were like, oh, bro, if you got shot,
0:33:01 we’d just have to dump your body at a hospital.
0:33:04 We wouldn’t be able to explain why you’re here blowing up cars.
0:33:06 Right, right.
0:33:10 And you’re American and athlete, international celebrity.
0:33:13 They’d be like, what is he doing on the front line?
0:33:16 There’s no real good explanation for it.
0:33:18 But I mean, even to the jokes and stuff,
0:33:22 it’s good to highlight what’s actually happening over there.
0:33:23 You know, it’s obviously very, very bad.
0:33:26 What’s the morale of the soldiers like?
0:33:28 Is there still an optimism?
0:33:29 Is there still a hope?
0:33:32 I mean, there’s sort of the battle fatigue.
0:33:35 You know, and as they say, all the heroes die early.
0:33:37 You know, the guys, the real heroes
0:33:39 that are willing to sacrifice themselves,
0:33:40 they’re the ones that are going to get taken out quick.
0:33:44 Unfortunately, that’s the reality from over there.
0:33:48 But their thoughts are mostly that it’s going to be a prolonged war.
0:33:51 Like when I ask them about how fast the front line moves,
0:33:55 they’re like, oh, it could take six months to move one 200 meters.
0:33:57 So it just feels like it’s going to go on forever.
0:34:01 And from the Ukrainian side’s perspective,
0:34:05 those guys talk to me about how when they hear radio intercepts
0:34:09 of Russian soldiers marching to the same front line spot,
0:34:14 is that basically they’re marching into certain death
0:34:15 at certain locations.
0:34:17 And based on the radio transmissions,
0:34:19 they know they’re going to die.
0:34:22 But they head forth anyway,
0:34:24 straight forward into a Ukrainian position,
0:34:25 which is just wild to me.
0:34:29 I guess World War II, they just keep throwing troops at it.
0:34:32 And you see a ton of footage.
0:34:34 They take themselves, which is just mind blowing.
0:34:37 Obviously, some of this footage doesn’t make it to the internet
0:34:40 because it’s got important sort of details in those conflicts.
0:34:44 But like they’re showing first person perspectives of trench warfare.
0:34:48 It’s just crazy to see what some of these guys have gone through.
0:34:53 So I went to a lot of the same places as well, including Herzan.
0:34:57 What was your sense of the place?
0:35:01 Herzan was likely, it was just so destroyed.
0:35:03 I think at this point, most of the civilians are gone.
0:35:07 I saw a lot of just elderly people left behind,
0:35:09 especially a lot of old men.
0:35:10 And I just think they’re just like,
0:35:13 “Hey, I’ve lived in my whole life, I’m just never leaving.”
0:35:16 So no matter the level of danger, those guys just remain.
0:35:20 And then for the, it’s largely just, I guess, military incursion.
0:35:23 But that place felt very, very dangerous.
0:35:27 I didn’t realize until we got there just quite how destroyed it is.
0:35:29 How did that experience change you?
0:35:33 Just seeing war head on.
0:35:35 How did it change me?
0:35:38 I guess just realizing a lot of these soldiers are just like,
0:35:40 you kind of distance yourself from them,
0:35:42 thinking that they’re something separate.
0:35:45 But really speaking to a lot of the Ukrainian soldiers,
0:35:49 like my friend Roman, he hadn’t lived in Ukraine for eight years.
0:35:51 He lived in France, he had a life.
0:35:53 He’s got a wife over there, he’s got a daughter.
0:35:59 He basically volunteered to come back to protect his mom and brother,
0:36:00 who still live there.
0:36:05 So it’s like, you sort of, I used to view them military guys,
0:36:08 because in Australia, and I guess in the US,
0:36:12 they don’t have this conscription ongoing right now.
0:36:13 You know what I mean?
0:36:16 Like, whereas obviously this guy’s like Roman who volunteered,
0:36:20 but then there’s a lot of Ukrainian soldiers that were conscripted into the war.
0:36:23 So it’s like, you just realize how a lot of these guys, everyday people,
0:36:29 they’re just in this crazy situation where Roman felt obligated to return
0:36:34 to Ukraine, like from my perspective, anyone from Australia or US,
0:36:40 just a different perspective on like, they feel different to the regular people
0:36:42 fighting in Ukraine, from my perspective.
0:36:45 Yeah, it’s defending the land that is your home.
0:36:49 Yeah, like Japan was coming for Australia, I guess in World War II,
0:36:53 they attacked the North, but really there was no foot battle.
0:36:56 And there was no soldiers on the ground within Australia,
0:36:58 I guess US too during World War II.
0:37:00 So it’s like a completely different perspective
0:37:05 from our recent histories compared to like, if you were a Ukrainian,
0:37:09 and there’s Russians within the defined border,
0:37:14 their responsibility to protect their homeland and their family is just something
0:37:18 you can’t imagine, but also after having spent time with them,
0:37:22 you can see why they feel such a strong sense of obligation to protect
0:37:25 to protect Ukraine, protect their family and friends.
0:37:33 And in a lot of cases, the soldiers are using their own funds to buy equipment,
0:37:37 whether it’s bullets, whether it’s guns, whether it’s armor.
0:37:39 Is that still what you saw?
0:37:44 Yeah, I mean, in terms of the weapons, America provides weapons.
0:37:48 So we saw a wide selection of weapons.
0:37:53 Some of those would be old Soviet weapons, like obviously the RPG we shot
0:37:56 and what we shot out of it is all Soviet.
0:37:58 It’s a very old weaponry.
0:38:01 And then you’ve got US weapons that have been given as well.
0:38:03 But in terms of the basic soldiers equipment,
0:38:06 like if they want good quality stuff,
0:38:10 that might be the difference between them surviving the winter or the summer,
0:38:12 just in the extreme temperature range.
0:38:14 Like they have to pay for that all themselves.
0:38:18 So they always joke about when foreign soldiers come over to train them
0:38:23 or they, a lot of foreign soldiers come to learn about the sort of the drone technology
0:38:26 they’ve developed on a budget, is they always joke with them about how like
0:38:30 everything from most countries is basically supplied.
0:38:34 All the good quality standard equipment they’d need is just supplied by the government.
0:38:38 But in Ukraine, obviously, funding is very stretched.
0:38:40 So these guys, they have the best equipment.
0:38:44 They have to basically find money to pay for themselves.
0:38:46 And they’ll do that by seeking donations.
0:38:50 Best way to get donations would be to grow social media profiles.
0:38:53 So that’s when you see a lot of sort of social media warfare
0:38:58 from a perspective of gaining fame to secure donations for their battalion,
0:39:00 to be able to fight better or protect themselves.
0:39:06 And also some of the social media warfare, I guess is psychological warfare against the enemy.
0:39:09 You’ll see like private telegram groups where they’re showing
0:39:12 what they’ve done to the enemy, what the enemy’s done to them.
0:39:13 It’s just crazy.
0:39:18 Yeah, there’s telegram groups on both sides.
0:39:20 And it’s basically, some of it is propaganda.
0:39:23 Some of it is psychological warfare.
0:39:25 Some of it is just the human nature being like
0:39:29 of increasing your own morale and the morale of the people around you
0:39:33 by showing off successfully killing other human beings,
0:39:35 which are made other in war.
0:39:40 And the nature of this war has evolved.
0:39:42 So drones have become more and more prevalent.
0:39:45 They’re consumer level, cheap drones.
0:39:46 Can you speak to that?
0:39:49 Have you seen the use of FPV drones?
0:39:52 Yeah, so basically like a three to $500 drone.
0:39:55 I think it’s like carbon fiber, 3D printed.
0:39:59 And they can attach different forms of weaponry to it,
0:40:02 whether it’s just dropping a frag, they could drop a mine out of it.
0:40:05 I know they were talking about how they had a liquid
0:40:09 that could basically burn through sort of a lot of cars and tanks.
0:40:13 So the person inside would basically melt alive, which sounds horrible.
0:40:17 But what’s mind blowing to me is you could have like a $3 million Russian tank
0:40:21 that could be destroyed by a $300 drone,
0:40:24 which is just crazy how fast the war changes.
0:40:28 I think they’re kind of the world leaders in budget drone technology.
0:40:30 They didn’t obviously don’t have the budget
0:40:34 for these crazy elaborate massive drones.
0:40:36 I did see some higher budget, bigger drones over there,
0:40:39 but for the most part, those FPV drones
0:40:41 is really how most of the battles are fought.
0:40:45 And you’re seeing the cameras on them.
0:40:48 So you can see like basically a kamikaze drone
0:40:51 will chase someone down and they have that footage.
0:40:53 And that’s what the police chief said to me
0:40:56 when he gifted me one of the drones they used.
0:40:59 And he basically said, he’s like artillery is scary,
0:41:03 but a drone will follow you into a building.
0:41:05 It’s like kind of a haunting thing to think about.
0:41:07 Like they’ll see the drone, they’ll hear the drone.
0:41:10 They might try to shoot it down or they might try to run.
0:41:12 But if it’s a kamikaze one,
0:41:14 those guys are pretty good at flying them.
0:41:17 It’s going to chase the soldiers down.
0:41:21 A lot of soldiers like pretending to be dead, it’s really crazy.
0:41:23 Some of the footage out there are those FPV drones.
0:41:29 So it’s a terrifying tool of war and tool of psychological war
0:41:31 and used by both sides increasingly.
0:41:33 Yeah, both sides use it.
0:41:35 I remember I was with Roman in Marseille
0:41:37 and he had his break period.
0:41:38 He was allowed to leave the country
0:41:41 because he volunteered to join the army.
0:41:43 Ukrainian men can’t really leave Ukraine right now.
0:41:46 But Roman, I was in Marseille
0:41:48 and this was a surreal experience for him.
0:41:49 We went to the beach
0:41:51 and there were some tourists there flying a drone
0:41:53 and you just saw his instinctual reaction
0:41:58 to that drone sound in the sky flashback to that.
0:42:04 Currently they’re all, as far as I know, all human controlled.
0:42:05 So FPV.
0:42:08 But to me, increasingly terrifying notion
0:42:11 is of them becoming autonomous.
0:42:12 It’s the best way to defend against a drone
0:42:16 that’s FPV controlled is for AI to be controlling that drone.
0:42:21 Just have swarms of drones that are $500 controlled by AI systems.
0:42:24 And that’s a terrifying possibility
0:42:27 that the future warfare is essentially swarms of drones
0:42:28 on both sides.
0:42:30 And then maybe swarms of drones,
0:42:34 say between US and China over Taiwan.
0:42:34 That’ll be wild.
0:42:38 Because I mean, they do those crazy drone light shows
0:42:39 where they do those performances with the lights and stuff.
0:42:41 So they’re already pretty sophisticated
0:42:43 with sort of pre-programming.
0:42:44 Those are pre-programmed.
0:42:47 So the low level control, flight control of those
0:42:48 is done autonomously.
0:42:52 But there’s a interface for doing the choreography
0:42:53 that’s hard coded in.
0:42:56 But adding increasing levels of intelligence to a drone
0:42:59 where you can detect another drone, follow it,
0:43:00 and defend yourself.
0:43:04 In terms of the military on both sides of the Ukraine war,
0:43:07 that’s a technology.
0:43:10 That’s like the most wanted technology is drone defense.
0:43:13 Like how do you defend against drones on both sides?
0:43:16 And anybody that comes up with an autonomous drone technology
0:43:19 is going to help whichever side uses that technology
0:43:21 to gain a military advantage.
0:43:23 And so there’s a huge incentive to build that technology.
0:43:27 But then, of course, once both sides start using that technology,
0:43:30 then there’s swarms of autonomous drones
0:43:31 who don’t give a shit about humans,
0:43:35 just killing everything in sight on both sides.
0:43:38 And that’s terrifying.
0:43:41 Because the civilian deaths that are possible,
0:43:42 they are terrifying.
0:43:46 Especially when you look 10, 20, 30, 40, 50 years from now.
0:43:46 Yes.
0:43:47 I mean, it’s surreal.
0:43:48 Like when we went to Kursan,
0:43:53 he was like the entire sky is just full of drones
0:43:54 at any given time.
0:43:56 They could decide to come and attack.
0:43:59 So they could just sit there forever waiting,
0:44:01 waiting for you to come out of that building.
0:44:05 Though they’ll wait a long time when someone goes and hides inside,
0:44:06 or potentially if it’s open window,
0:44:08 flash straight through the open window to get people.
0:44:10 Yes, you’re not even safe indoors.
0:44:12 Yeah, there’s nowhere to hide.
0:44:14 And they can wait for a very, very long time.
0:44:16 And as far as I know, even politicians,
0:44:19 like you’re in danger everywhere in Ukraine.
0:44:23 So if you want to do a public speaking thing
0:44:25 and doing it outside, you’re in danger.
0:44:27 Because it’s very difficult to attack those drones.
0:44:28 It could be anywhere.
0:44:33 So it’s a terrifying life where you don’t know
0:44:35 if you’re safe at any moment, anywhere in Ukraine.
0:44:36 Well, sure.
0:44:37 I mean, it’s crazy with what happened to Trump.
0:44:41 I thought maybe the next attack on a public figure
0:44:43 might come in the form of drone technology,
0:44:46 some sort of something along those lines.
0:44:48 I wonder how they protect against that here.
0:44:53 If that happens, just imagine the insanity they would ensue.
0:44:57 Because we understand the idea of a gunman with a rifle
0:44:59 shooting somebody.
0:45:03 But just like a drone, just imagine the conspiracy theories.
0:45:04 Who controlled that drone?
0:45:05 Where did it come from?
0:45:06 Yeah.
0:45:10 And now everybody, I mean, that will just cause chaos.
0:45:12 And the range is ever increasing.
0:45:13 One of the battalions in Ukraine,
0:45:15 because those FPV drones have short range,
0:45:16 pretty short range.
0:45:20 But they were able to attach it to one of the larger drones
0:45:21 with a signal booster.
0:45:24 So they could potentially go up to 30, 40 kilometers
0:45:24 into the distance.
0:45:28 So the drone that hits you could be flown by someone.
0:45:29 So far away from you.
0:45:32 And if they did that domestically,
0:45:35 that would be very frightening to think of the sphere
0:45:36 of where it could have come from.
0:45:40 Do they, when you talk to the soldiers there,
0:45:43 do they have a hope or a vision how the war will end?
0:45:45 No, really.
0:45:48 It just seems, I guess it just seems to everyone that it’s sort of,
0:45:51 there’s going to be no middle ground.
0:45:54 When I was there, there’s a kind of optimism that
0:45:58 that would be victorious, like definitively.
0:46:03 And so is there still that optimism?
0:46:07 And also, are they ready for prolonged war?
0:46:11 I mean, I think it would be a soldier by soldier basis.
0:46:15 I know like each of them had a different perspective.
0:46:17 I remember I would ask them about like in terms of
0:46:19 US politics and their fears.
0:46:20 Because the first year I went there,
0:46:25 US hadn’t agreed to resupply weapons.
0:46:28 So it was a very different feeling in the air there of concern
0:46:29 over what was going to happen.
0:46:33 But they still remained quite optimistic that no matter who got in,
0:46:35 they felt would do the right thing.
0:46:40 But in terms of prolonged war, most people think
0:46:43 it’s going to go for a very long time like the children’s hospital
0:46:45 that just was bombed in Kiev.
0:46:49 Anytime there’s a moment like that that reignites everything.
0:46:51 And I think it happens on both sides.
0:46:55 So I know that there was an attack in Crimea.
0:46:58 It was an attack on a beach, I guess.
0:47:02 And I don’t know if that attack on the hospital was retribution for that.
0:47:08 But that’s sort of the energy that is felt like they might have battle fatigue.
0:47:13 But when something happens to civilians, especially kids on your side,
0:47:19 kind of reinvigorates the energy to fight for as long as necessary.
0:47:22 And in terms of a case-by-case basis, one of my friends, Dmitry,
0:47:26 over there who transdigits who owns the gym, he was very passionate
0:47:28 about it just because of the history.
0:47:33 Like he brought out documents of his grandfather being executed by the USSR.
0:47:37 So I know that when the war started, he took a bicycle helmet,
0:47:39 his AK-47 and went out into the streets.
0:47:44 And he’s like, “I’d rather be dead than live under Russian rule again.”
0:47:50 So I mean, very case-by-case basis sort of personal history for them, I think.
0:47:55 Did they comment on U.S. politics,
0:47:58 whether they hoped for Trump or for, in that situation,
0:48:01 Biden now hairs to win the presidential election?
0:48:05 I think most of the guys tried to keep it pretty positive.
0:48:06 You know what I mean?
0:48:10 Like some people did think that maybe if Trump was elected,
0:48:12 he wouldn’t continue to fund it.
0:48:15 But they really tried to stay optimistic.
0:48:18 Most of the people I spoke to really tried to remain optimistic that
0:48:22 they would be protected if it comes down to it.
0:48:26 Like, but obviously there was a nine-month period where they weren’t refunded.
0:48:29 So as that stretched, obviously they’re refunded now,
0:48:34 but it takes a lot of time to get that equipment back to the points at which they needed.
0:48:36 So I mean, if ammunition had ran out,
0:48:41 a Patriot defense system had ran out, really, really sort of scary prospect there.
0:48:45 I don’t know what’s all, I guess no one knows what’s going to happen there, but…
0:48:49 Did you lie to people and say you were close to the president so they can be nice to you?
0:48:51 Like so they can convince you to continue the funding?
0:48:53 I’m an Australian diplomat.
0:48:56 I mean, that could be a nice way in.
0:48:57 Yeah, that would have been a nice way to the top.
0:49:01 Luckily for me, most of the places I travel to,
0:49:05 Jiu-Jitsu gives me access to so many different individuals.
0:49:09 It’s super bizarre, like oligarchs, royalty,
0:49:15 I guess tech, it’s just a strange group of people, like a code around the world,
0:49:20 of just, I get strange access just for being good at wrestling dudes.
0:49:26 Yeah, martial arts, there’s like a code and there’s a respect, a mutual respect,
0:49:29 even if you don’t know anything about the other person,
0:49:30 if you both have done martial arts.
0:49:35 I mean, there’s similar things with Judo, with Jiu-Jitsu, with grappling, all that.
0:49:36 I don’t know what that is.
0:49:38 It’s like an inner circle.
0:49:40 That’s kind of like, because this film project we’re working on,
0:49:45 it’s kind of focused on that, is because of the history I have in Jiu-Jitsu
0:49:49 and traveling and doing seminars, and just getting access to strange experiences
0:49:53 from the locals, strange in a positive way, and participating in those experiences,
0:49:57 that’s what I sort of wanted to focus this travel show on, was the community
0:50:04 of Jiu-Jitsu people around the world, kind of really has no sort of ethnic background,
0:50:06 religious background, even level of wealth.
0:50:13 Jesus, it sounds kind of a good equalizer on the mats, and that community camaraderie
0:50:14 sort of knows no limits there.
0:50:21 Including like mats, the shittiest mats, and some small talon in the middle of nowhere.
0:50:26 100%. Even like Sheikh Tanu who started ADCC, I know when he went to the US and he studied there,
0:50:33 he would train at a very simple gym. He wouldn’t declare who he was.
0:50:38 I watched a documentary produced about sort of the story of Sheikh Tanu and how he
0:50:45 studied in America, basically in anonymity. The people at his gym didn’t know who he was
0:50:50 in his country, and he trained there, he trained with them for years, cleaned their mats like anyone
0:50:55 else, and then they didn’t realize who he was until he said, “Hey, I want to invite you to my country,”
0:51:00 but he actually meant basically as a royalty come, and then they realized
0:51:03 who this guy was and the significance of him.
0:51:04 That’s gangsta, that’s great.
0:51:08 One of the things I love about no-geek jiu-jitsu is you don’t see rank,
0:51:13 so on a small scale there’s no hierarchy that emerges when you have the different color belts.
0:51:18 Everybody’s kind of the same. It’s nice, you get to see the skill.
0:51:22 The skill speaks, but there’s just a mutual respect and whatever, and you can quickly find out who.
0:51:27 I actually wonder if I would be able to figure out the rank of a person.
0:51:31 You think you can usually figure out how long a person’s been doing jiu-jitsu?
0:51:36 I like to think with some of the aggressive clothing choices I’ve made and sold in the sport,
0:51:41 that that should be a beacon, that that person has hopefully some talent,
0:51:44 because they’re feellessly provoking the other party there.
0:51:49 Oh, it’s like in the jungle, whenever there’s an insect that’s red,
0:51:53 that is really flamboyant looking, that means they’re dangerous.
0:51:56 It’s a target, yeah, being flamboyant.
0:51:59 If you come on the mats with something pink, pink gi or something,
0:52:02 people are circling in fast, especially in Eastern Europe.
0:52:06 Okay, so yeah, you mentioned the project. Can you talk about that?
0:52:12 I saw there’s a preview that you showed Craig Jones gone walkabout.
0:52:18 You showed a preview in Indonesia where you’re both kind of
0:52:23 celebrating and maybe poking a bit of fun at Hicks and Gracie.
0:52:28 Hicks and Gracie, yeah. I like to match looks from time to time.
0:52:28 Thank you.
0:52:29 In homage.
0:52:30 You look sexy.
0:52:32 It’s comfortable. I enjoy it.
0:52:34 Yeah, you should keep it.
0:52:39 Oh, only wear this now. I wear this for the Gabby match.
0:52:42 I mean, yeah, we’re trying to do a documentary series,
0:52:45 because the way I see it is I want to grow the sport of jiu-jitsu.
0:52:49 This sounds funny to say now, because I’m doing a tournament,
0:52:52 but everyone tries to do it through competition.
0:52:57 But as we know, most jiu-jitsu gyms revisit a very small percentage of people compete.
0:52:59 Let alone compete regularly.
0:53:02 You go to gyms that could be brown or black belts that don’t know
0:53:04 many of the big name competitors.
0:53:10 So my thoughts were, we’re never going to grow this sport by competition.
0:53:13 We’re going to grow it by appealing to the large majority of people that do it,
0:53:17 which are just people that enjoy it for the benefits it provides to them,
0:53:20 whether health or psychological.
0:53:24 And obviously, many people inspired by Anthony Bourdain.
0:53:30 Basically, he was looking at what he did with food by showing the very interesting characters
0:53:34 in the food culture, the food industries, especially with street food,
0:53:36 and building around that.
0:53:39 So I’m trying to look at jiu-jitsu like a giant cult.
0:53:41 Scientology isn’t starting with Planet Xenoh.
0:53:43 It’s starting with John Travolta and Tom Cruise.
0:53:47 So we can create a documentary travel series highlighting the diverse,
0:53:50 interesting people that participate in the sport.
0:53:53 In that sense, I hope we can grow up.
0:53:56 But also doing some charity work along the way.
0:53:59 Like we’ll release the Indonesia Bali episode pretty soon.
0:54:03 But as an Australian, I do do a lot of damage culturally around the world.
0:54:07 So I’d like to do some good as well.
0:54:08 We’ve done a lot of damage to Bali.
0:54:10 So give back to local communities.
0:54:15 We have an Australian there that runs an academy, Academy Christos.
0:54:18 He’s one of the guys we’re donating a portion of the ticket sales to from our event.
0:54:22 But he basically went straight into a Balinese slum.
0:54:25 Started teaching jiu-jitsu on a mat under a tree.
0:54:30 And then slowly through donations, has built a gym.
0:54:36 And his real focus is not just taking money from people and gifting it to them to help the community,
0:54:37 but to teach them skills.
0:54:42 So he’ll take a lot of the disadvantaged kids and he’ll teach them things like photo editing
0:54:46 so they can get that work from the internet really incredible guy.
0:54:50 It’s good to know that you see yourself as the John Travolta jiu-jitsu.
0:54:53 Many masseuses have accused me of the same thing, unfortunately.
0:54:54 All lies.
0:54:59 Yeah, there’s a lot of similarities between the two of you.
0:55:01 So you mentioned Anthony Bourdain.
0:55:04 What do you like about the guy?
0:55:10 What do you find inspiring and instructive about the way he was able to,
0:55:12 as you said, scratch beneath the surface of a place?
0:55:14 I just felt like he was very authentic.
0:55:15 Wasn’t afraid.
0:55:18 Like this is something I had trouble with when we first started doing the travel show.
0:55:22 It’s easy to do a travel show if you only say positive things about a place.
0:55:28 But he would find a very creative way to show what’s good and bad,
0:55:29 a very honest reflection of the place.
0:55:32 So that’s something I would strive to do.
0:55:34 However, in some places, it’s very difficult.
0:55:37 For example, Kazakhstan.
0:55:39 If I were to say something negative about Kazakhstan, they’d be like,
0:55:43 “Who’s this foreign idiot talking about our culture?”
0:55:46 And I think that was what was incredible about Bourdain,
0:55:50 is he could talk about both the good and bad of places,
0:55:54 and he would do it in such a way that it was tasteful and was respected by the locals.
0:55:57 Yeah, that’s actually a skill that you’re incredibly good at.
0:55:59 You make fun of a lot of people, but there’s something…
0:56:02 Maybe there’s an underlying respect.
0:56:03 Maybe it’s the accent.
0:56:04 Maybe I don’t know what it is.
0:56:08 There’s a love underneath your trolling.
0:56:09 I like to think so.
0:56:11 Hopefully, yeah.
0:56:12 Gabby Garcia.
0:56:16 There’s a deep passion of love underneath the trolling.
0:56:16 Yeah.
0:56:20 Speaking of which, let’s talk about CGI.
0:56:23 You’re putting on the CGI tournament.
0:56:27 It’s in about a week, same weekend as ADCC.
0:56:32 $3 million budget, two divisions, two superfights.
0:56:34 Winner of each division gets $1 million.
0:56:38 Everyone gets $10,000.
0:56:41 I’d even say that, plus one.
0:56:42 10,000 plus one, yeah.
0:56:45 Plus one, just to compete.
0:56:46 So it’s August 16th and 17th.
0:56:48 Everybody should get tickets.
0:56:52 Same weekend as ADCC, which is August 17th.
0:56:55 Okay, so what’s the mission of what you’re doing there?
0:57:01 The mission has always been, first and foremost, increase athlete pay.
0:57:04 So ADCC has invested a ton into the sport.
0:57:06 Obviously, I mentioned Sheikh Tanu.
0:57:09 Sheikh Tanu has done so much for the sport of grappling,
0:57:12 particularly no-gi grappling.
0:57:13 So he’s growing it.
0:57:17 He has funded this for a very, very long time.
0:57:22 But we’ve kind of hit a point since 2017, where the audience,
0:57:29 the crowd watching live and at home behind a paywall has grown considerably.
0:57:31 We had things like Meta Morris.
0:57:33 We had the Eddie Bravo invitation or Polaris,
0:57:35 all these sort of professional events
0:57:37 that have also contributed to growing the sport.
0:57:42 And obviously, people like Gordon Ryan have definitely increased the popularity of the sport.
0:57:50 But the payment for ADCC has never gone up, despite, again, the growth of it.
0:57:54 So what I did, a lot of fans were asking me earlier in the year.
0:57:55 They said, “Okay, you’re going to do ADCC.”
0:58:02 And I said, “That is a big commitment of time, energy, expenses on steroids
0:58:05 to get my body ready for a tournament that I’ll probably lose.
0:58:07 And if I lose on day one, I make $0.
0:58:16 If I lose on the final, which I have done a couple of times, I only get $6,000.
0:58:18 I think third place is $3,000.
0:58:20 Fourth place is $1,000.
0:58:21 So if you make day two, you get paid.
0:58:26 But for me personally seeing ADCC 2022,
0:58:29 you’re looking out to a sold-out crowd of like 10,000 people.
0:58:32 It’s on flow grappling, which you know,
0:58:34 pay quite a bit of money for the streaming rights.
0:58:37 I can’t comment on what that number would be.
0:58:42 And then you go home, despite having put in all that effort with only $6,000.
0:58:45 And they basically, the argument is you’re paid an exposure.
0:58:49 But again, there’s many ways to expose yourself.
0:58:49 You know what I mean?
0:58:52 That’s just one of the platforms to do so.
0:58:57 My problem was that they announced that they were going to go from Thomas and Mack
0:59:01 to T-Mobile, which is a jump in quality of stadium,
0:59:04 but not a significant jump in sort of seating.
0:59:10 So we’ve gone from like 11,000 seat arena to I think a 15,000, 16,000 seat arena.
0:59:15 And I knew that flow grappling would have had to pay more money
0:59:17 because now the sport’s growing so much.
0:59:20 And I can personally kind of track the growth of the sport through selling
0:59:23 instructional DVDs, instructional online products.
0:59:25 Because that keeps growing.
0:59:29 And we’re targeting those white and blue belts vulnerable to internet marketing.
0:59:31 And that audience continues to grow.
0:59:35 And those will be the people that largely watch ADCC events like this.
0:59:40 So I simply said, in response to a lot of fans asking me,
0:59:42 why are you going to do ADCC?
0:59:46 And I just simply made a video saying, no, probably not.
0:59:47 Probably not.
0:59:49 It’d be nice to make some more money.
0:59:52 And then I listed a bunch of sports such as Cockbar
0:59:54 that you get paid more to win Cockbar.
0:59:56 In the villages of Kazakhstan, the payment structure is higher.
1:00:00 And I received a very aggressive response.
1:00:03 Not from any of Shakedown Unes people,
1:00:05 but from basically who runs the event today.
1:00:08 One of those guys amongst giving me death threats said, hey,
1:00:11 T-Mobile costs $2 million.
1:00:14 You don’t know what you’re talking about in terms of business and production.
1:00:16 And he’s probably right.
1:00:20 But to me, $2 million is a waste of money for a jujitsu event.
1:00:21 I don’t think we’re at that level yet.
1:00:23 Like that’s where the UFC host events.
1:00:26 $2 million, that’s an expensive, expensive venue.
1:00:28 So we argued a bit on the internet.
1:00:33 And he said, hey, if you don’t like it, why don’t you go get $2 million
1:00:34 and put on your own tournament?
1:00:36 And I said, I might just do that.
1:00:43 And one of my anonymous friends kindly donated a $3 million budget.
1:00:45 And I actually messaged him before the show to say, hey,
1:00:48 we won’t reveal your identity.
1:00:51 Because obviously anyone that has money is going to get asked for more money.
1:00:53 Ask for money from others.
1:00:54 So he wants to remain anonymous.
1:01:00 But he basically just said to enjoy the trolling aspect of it
1:01:03 and also contribute to the sport of jujitsu.
1:01:06 Well, it’s good to know that the anonymous funder appreciates you
1:01:09 for who you are, Craig Jones.
1:01:10 He sees my true identity.
1:01:14 And he wants to provoke– it’s trolling for a good cause.
1:01:18 But basically, we were able to find Thomas and Mac event center,
1:01:20 which was their original venue.
1:01:23 And it just so happened to be available that same weekend,
1:01:25 which we’re very happy about.
1:01:26 And so we booked that out.
1:01:31 We decided to– ADCC pays $10,000 to the winner.
1:01:32 We were like, you know what?
1:01:35 We’ll pay $10,000 plus one to show up.
1:01:38 So to show up in our event, you’re going to get paid more than to win ADCC.
1:01:42 And not only that, we’re going to broadcast it for free.
1:01:47 So on Meta, X, and YouTube, you’d be able to watch this event for free.
1:01:48 That’s amazing.
1:01:52 It’s very considerate to the flow grappling streaming platform,
1:01:55 I believe, to have also a free alternative on the same weekend.
1:01:59 And the brilliance of this whole thing is I was largely criticized
1:02:01 for not knowing anything about business.
1:02:07 But the people criticizing me decided to host a tournament, a 15,000-seat arena.
1:02:09 They decided to take sponsors.
1:02:11 They decided to use a stream platform
1:02:14 which sells subscriptions based on the athletes that would enter it,
1:02:17 but not give any of the talent, the athletes, a contract,
1:02:21 which gave me this beautiful position to basically say,
1:02:27 “Hey, what do you prefer, the prestige of an ADCC gold medal or money?”
1:02:31 And that’s the fuse so far.
1:02:34 And we put that out into the world.
1:02:36 I didn’t chase too many athletes down.
1:02:39 Obviously, a lot of these guys really need money.
1:02:41 So you throw a million dollars out there.
1:02:43 People are jumping on board.
1:02:45 So initially, we started getting,
1:02:47 we got two local guys here in Austin, the Tackett brothers.
1:02:49 They jumped in first.
1:02:50 And they’re great kids.
1:02:51 They really legitimize the whole thing
1:02:55 because if we pick certain athletes like just B-Team guys straight away,
1:02:57 it’s already looking a bit dodgy.
1:02:58 But we’ve got some legitimate athletes,
1:03:04 especially the under-80 kilo divisions full of minus two or three guys.
1:03:08 That’s the best people in the world in that weight division.
1:03:11 And as we started to grow our roster here,
1:03:15 what happened, I’m going to say this allegedly for legal reasons,
1:03:23 is that the first move ADCC did was they matched the female pay to the men’s pay.
1:03:25 So the women always traditionally got paid less,
1:03:27 I think $6,000 for first place.
1:03:31 As soon as we had Fionne Davies, the reigning champion,
1:03:35 come across to do a super fight with us, bang, ADCC raised the prize
1:03:37 money of the women’s division to equal the men’s.
1:03:42 So me being a feminist activist throughout many of my years on this earth,
1:03:48 immediately got women’s pay raised in the sport of jiu-jitsu equalized basically,
1:03:51 which went counter to everything the promoter had said
1:03:53 because he said it was out of his control to raise money.
1:03:57 He said only the ADCC, I guess, coming directly from the shake
1:04:02 or the shake’s sort of guys could raise the prize money, he got it raised.
1:04:07 And then what happened was once we started getting some of these big names here,
1:04:10 so some of the best guys from ADCC would be in this division.
1:04:14 We’ve got a bunch of champions or medalists or really
1:04:16 the top betting favorites for their divisions there.
1:04:19 They started, again, I can’t emphasize this enough,
1:04:24 allegedly paying show money, which has never historically been done before,
1:04:26 to keep athletes in their show.
1:04:32 So you’re saying allegedly there were some under the table payments by ADCC.
1:04:33 Do you have secret documents proving this?
1:04:35 I do have the documents.
1:04:38 Now some of the guys obviously told me, you know how it is,
1:04:41 you slap a million dollars on the table, it looks great.
1:04:44 That was me proving I had the money, which wasn’t even my money to begin with.
1:04:46 But I was basically me saying, hey, the money’s real.
1:04:49 I don’t know why, but strangely a lot of people don’t believe me
1:04:50 when I’m telling the truth.
1:04:51 I don’t know why they wouldn’t.
1:04:55 But what logically happens is they’re like, oh, look how much money he has.
1:04:57 We’re going to give us more show money.
1:04:58 So they’re negotiating with me.
1:05:06 There was one particular Brazilian businessman, manager, I won’t say his name,
1:05:08 but he looks like the thing from Fantastic Four.
1:05:11 And he was a manager for some of these athletes.
1:05:13 And he would take a massive 20% cut.
1:05:16 So what he, and I got to pay respect to this,
1:05:21 respect to this, because it actually caused trauma to the other team as well.
1:05:24 But he would, I would invite an athlete to CJI.
1:05:29 He would go to the other organization and he would say to them,
1:05:33 hey, what sort of deal could you give me to keep this guy?
1:05:34 You want to keep me in your event?
1:05:39 And he would use CJI to leverage more show money for his guys,
1:05:43 of which he gets to grease the wheels with 20% for himself.
1:05:49 However, at CJI, everyone gets $10,001 across the board
1:05:50 and a million dollars prize money.
1:05:54 So there’s no room for really negotiation for the tournament aspect of us.
1:05:58 So he has a vested interest in putting his guys in ADCC
1:06:03 because he can negotiate show money and he can basically take 20% of that for himself.
1:06:06 But really, for the sport of grappling,
1:06:10 this is incredible across the board because by us stealing,
1:06:12 or at least borrowing a bunch of athletes from ADCC,
1:06:14 ADCC had to fill their divisions.
1:06:18 So they filled their divisions with many other competitors
1:06:22 that wouldn’t have ordinarily had the chance to do ADCC.
1:06:26 And really, although we’ve scheduled it the same weekend,
1:06:31 ours is actually Friday, Saturday, ADCC being Saturday, Sunday.
1:06:33 Our day starts pretty late.
1:06:34 So we start 5 p.m. Saturday.
1:06:39 So really, ultimately, it was a big marketing ploy to go head to head,
1:06:41 pretending like we’re making the fans choose,
1:06:44 but the fans will be able to watch both events.
1:06:47 You’ll be able to go all day Friday for us.
1:06:50 You’ll sadly miss the ADCC Hall of Fame ceremony
1:06:55 where you’ll see many of great speakers, public speakers, philosophers,
1:06:58 tell their stories about hardship.
1:06:59 Just like at the end of any Jujitsu seminar,
1:07:01 or beginning if you’re blessed like that,
1:07:03 you might have a 45-minute monologue
1:07:07 about how they’re more knowledgeable than doctors, lawyers,
1:07:08 classic black belt technique.
1:07:09 But you will miss that.
1:07:12 With great metaphors about lions and…
1:07:13 About lions, yes.
1:07:15 About being a humble lion, most importantly.
1:07:15 But…
1:07:17 ability is important.
1:07:18 You can watch all that Friday.
1:07:20 You can watch most of ADCC Saturday.
1:07:23 And then Saturday night in Las Vegas,
1:07:27 I’ll be doing what many men have done before,
1:07:30 and that is wrestling a giant woman.
1:07:33 Can you speak to that?
1:07:38 How are you preparing for this moment of violence
1:07:41 on a Saturday night with Gabby Garcia?
1:07:47 So Gabby Garcia is the legend of sort of women’s grappling.
1:07:49 I think she’s won more than anyone else.
1:07:50 So between me and her,
1:07:55 we would at least have 15 to 20 world championships, I’d imagine.
1:07:56 Yeah.
1:07:57 She’s huge.
1:07:59 I say that in an endearing way.
1:08:04 She might be six foot four, six foot three.
1:08:07 And her weight varies depending on what time of the day it is
1:08:09 between 220 and 275 pounds.
1:08:11 But she’s going to be coming in quite big and strong.
1:08:18 Me, I am about 179 pounds right now, and a five foot 11.
1:08:20 So I’ve got a significant size disadvantage.
1:08:24 She has the credentials, but we’re going to scrap it out.
1:08:27 Scrap it out and see who’s best,
1:08:30 the greatest woman’s competitor of all time,
1:08:32 or a guy that’s never won anything.
1:08:35 Has it added some complexity to the picture
1:08:37 that there’s some sexual tension in the room
1:08:40 whenever the two of you are together?
1:08:40 Yeah.
1:08:41 Or maybe I’m being romantic,
1:08:46 but it seems like you’ve slowly started to fall in love with each other.
1:08:48 It’s been three years of seduction.
1:08:49 It’s been a long time.
1:08:54 It’s inspiring for many young men that follow you and look up to you.
1:08:58 Just the romantic journey that you’ve been on.
1:08:59 It’s truly inspiring.
1:09:02 Yeah, I would say it’s a motivational message
1:09:06 to the guy that keeps sending DMs to a girl on Instagram for years.
1:09:10 That maybe after three years, it could also happen for you too.
1:09:16 No matter her height and weight, I think persistence is the key here.
1:09:18 Yeah.
1:09:21 And we do have a wager on the line.
1:09:22 What’s the wager?
1:09:24 This might be the first wager of its kind.
1:09:26 I would hope in Combat Sports history.
1:09:32 If she wins, I’ll personally give her a million dollars.
1:09:39 If I can footlock her, we’re going to collaborate together in an OnlyFans sex tape.
1:09:42 Did she agree to this?
1:09:43 She shook on it.
1:09:48 You do have an OnlyFans channel.
1:09:49 Is that still up?
1:09:52 After August 17th, it’s going to be fire.
1:09:53 It’s going to be on fire.
1:09:54 Wow.
1:09:56 I think that, and honestly, when we talk
1:09:58 about Secret Investor, I think that could fund the entire tournament.
1:09:59 It’d be that successful.
1:10:02 That’ll be the only pay-walled thing about this tournament.
1:10:03 This is your OnlyFans.
1:10:07 Yeah, I mean, it’s going to be a spiritual experience for me.
1:10:09 Yeah, wow.
1:10:13 Okay, I’m totally distracted now.
1:10:15 Can you talk about the rules set?
1:10:21 So we’re using the angled walls inspired by Karate Combat.
1:10:23 Karate Combat do those angled walls.
1:10:24 Those are awesome.
1:10:25 You’re calling it the alley.
1:10:26 That’s really, really interesting.
1:10:31 So it’s like in a pit, I guess, and the angled walls are.
1:10:34 Yeah, so Karate Combat have a square pit.
1:10:36 We have a rectangular alley.
1:10:39 We like the visual of just, you’re in the alley with someone.
1:10:42 You know, you come, we both know what goes on an alley.
1:10:44 Only a couple of things that could go on back there.
1:10:45 What’s the second thing?
1:10:46 Never mind.
1:10:47 I got it.
1:10:49 But why this is brilliant?
1:10:52 Why the angled walls are brilliant for grappling?
1:10:55 It’s because any grappling to them, this goes without question,
1:10:57 goes IBGF, ADCC.
1:11:02 The reset is one of the most annoying aspects of the sport.
1:11:04 And one of the aspects of the sport that these,
1:11:07 some of the sneakier guys take advantage of.
1:11:09 There’s guys out there that are brilliant at playing the edge.
1:11:13 Open the referee, set them, or they’ll shoot a takedown near the edge.
1:11:16 And you might watch, and again, I’m picking on ADCC here,
1:11:20 but you might watch an ADCC match where 90 seconds of a 10 minute match
1:11:21 is the referee grabbing them.
1:11:23 Bringing them back to the center.
1:11:28 Or trying to recreate something of a position that landed outside.
1:11:34 Not only is that sort of boring to me, and it sort of could be bias.
1:11:36 You know, like, again, it’s happened to me in events where like,
1:11:39 I’ve, the ref’s gone, stop.
1:11:40 I’ve stopped.
1:11:41 He’s moved a little bit more.
1:11:43 And then there’s an adjustment in the reset.
1:11:47 I mean, it’s cheating to a certain extent.
1:11:49 It’s just more of an annoyance.
1:11:49 They bring it back.
1:11:52 They reset it to the best of their ability in the center.
1:11:54 The angled wall mitigates that.
1:11:58 And it mitigates it in such a way that is a disadvantage
1:12:00 to be pushed up against the angle wall.
1:12:03 You’re very easily taken down against the angled wall.
1:12:06 You could use a cage like the UFC does
1:12:08 or any sort of MMA organization.
1:12:10 However, cage wrestling can be slow.
1:12:13 You’re obviously at the vertical and it can stagnate there.
1:12:17 Guys are very good at using split squats to really defend that position.
1:12:22 So we, and for me personally, I don’t love the cage for grappling.
1:12:24 I’d like to differentiate it for grappling.
1:12:29 What holds people back from using the alley or a pit like structure
1:12:31 is the viewing, the viewing angle.
1:12:33 Because if obviously if you’re one of the VIPs
1:12:37 or you pay for expensive seat, that angled wall’s above you.
1:12:42 A cage you can see into an elevated platform sort of stage
1:12:47 you can see clearly into because yeah, because it’s basically flat.
1:12:49 But the athletes could fall off and injure themselves.
1:12:52 So something happens to UFC Fight Passes, the elevated flat stage.
1:12:55 It’s kind of scary to be near the edge.
1:12:57 You go off, you’re going to land on concrete.
1:13:02 You might want to do that to the other guy if you that way inclined.
1:13:05 But the alley, the angled wall solves all those problems.
1:13:09 Very minimal referee interference.
1:13:12 Again, the only thing that holds people back is the expense of building it.
1:13:15 But again, when you’re spending someone else’s money,
1:13:17 you will spend no expense in production.
1:13:20 So we’ve spent a lot of money on the alley
1:13:22 and we’ve really gone out of our way to create an experience
1:13:26 that around the alley, we’ve elevated everything.
1:13:28 So that the people watching would be able to see down into it.
1:13:32 Because out of your instinctual thought is, oh, it sounds great,
1:13:35 but how am I going to see in it unless I’m far up?
1:13:38 Like you’d need like a Coliseum-like structure,
1:13:40 which is basically what we’ve attempted to create
1:13:46 so that you get both a perfect place to wrestle, to grapple in,
1:13:48 as well as a perfect viewing angle for the fans.
1:13:50 Well, I think it’s an amazing idea.
1:13:54 What about the jiu-jitsu on a slant?
1:13:57 You’ve triangled somebody on a slant.
1:13:58 Is there like some interesting aspects
1:14:01 about the actual detailed techniques
1:14:03 of how to be effective using a slant?
1:14:05 Oh, be honest, I can beat it for karate combat twice.
1:14:08 Never once did I ever step foot into the pit.
1:14:11 Just again, like you said before the podcast,
1:14:13 if there’s a right way of doing things,
1:14:15 I’m probably doing it the opposite.
1:14:16 The wrong way.
1:14:20 I actually have no idea why people take advice from you, but they do.
1:14:24 I’m mostly an inspirational speaker at this point, I think.
1:14:27 Yeah, you and Tony Robbins are like this.
1:14:28 Same size at least.
1:14:32 But in terms of the training for, obviously, the athlete’s very difficult.
1:14:34 Some of these guys have gone out there and built their own angled walls.
1:14:35 Yeah, I saw that.
1:14:37 There’s a cool video of that.
1:14:37 They’re getting into that.
1:14:38 That’s a smart thing to do.
1:14:40 There’s a million dollars on the line.
1:14:41 You should probably invest in that.
1:14:45 But also like a new surface that no one’s competed on.
1:14:46 No one’s gamed it yet.
1:14:49 No one’s like, we’re going to see it unfold.
1:14:53 Like when UFC, when people started figuring out how to use the cage,
1:14:56 we’re going to see this unfold in front of our very eyes,
1:14:59 how the strategies work for this.
1:15:02 The other thing we’ve done too is we’re doing rounds.
1:15:05 So qualifying rounds would be three, five minute rounds.
1:15:06 The final would be five, fives.
1:15:11 What I want to do that is to incentivize action.
1:15:14 We’re going to incentivize action through penalizing people.
1:15:18 But we really want, I love a short burst, a break,
1:15:20 and the guys can go hard again.
1:15:23 I don’t like a jiu-jitsu match where the guy takes the back early
1:15:27 and he’s like, oh, if I keep this position, I’ve won.
1:15:30 And that’s something that people that don’t compete don’t realize.
1:15:33 It’s if you take, if you get a good position early, get up on the points.
1:15:37 You just sit there and go, oh, let’s ride this to the end.
1:15:40 That’s why I want rounds so that you might take guys back.
1:15:43 You really incentivize to get that finish.
1:15:47 And the way we’re trying to grow the sport is to steal the MMA scoring structure,
1:15:51 which a lot of people criticize because they think it’s overly complicated to understand it.
1:15:56 But to the mass audience, they understand a 10-point mass,
1:15:58 understand a decision in that sense.
1:16:01 They understand it being scored round by round.
1:16:04 So we’re trying to appeal to a broader audience here.
1:16:09 But we think based on the structure, based on how hard we’ll call
1:16:13 stalling penalties, based on you wanting to finish your opponent quick
1:16:15 to have a better chance at a million dollars,
1:16:19 because it’s 10,001 to show up and a million to win.
1:16:21 If you ain’t first, you’re last.
1:16:23 There’s no reward for second place.
1:16:25 So I’m punishing the one position
1:16:27 I’ve only ever been able to achieve in tournaments.
1:16:35 Are you worried that because of how much money is on the line, people will play careful?
1:16:38 A very generous friend of mine has provided this money.
1:16:44 I’m like, unless you guys go out there and try to kill each other
1:16:48 and put it all on the line, I just won’t do it again.
1:16:51 Like I’m giving you guys a massive platform.
1:16:54 We’ve turned down offers from streaming platforms
1:16:58 that wanted to buy the rights to this event because the marketing’s gone very well.
1:17:01 We’re turning down money to grow the sport.
1:17:03 The ADCC promoter said he wanted to grow the sport.
1:17:06 So what he did is he put it behind a paywall
1:17:10 and he used the money from the paywall to buy a more expensive arena.
1:17:12 I don’t think that’s how you grow the sport.
1:17:15 I think you grow the sport like comedians do these days.
1:17:18 Like guys like Mark Norman will release a special for free.
1:17:21 Andrew Schultz did it first, released a special for free.
1:17:22 And it grew his audience massively.
1:17:24 I think that’s what jiu-jitsu needs.
1:17:28 We need an exciting show that’s not behind a paywall
1:17:31 that’ll grow the sport, grow the audience.
1:17:37 And really then ultimately we can get to a level where it could be behind a paywall.
1:17:39 But I just don’t think where they’re at.
1:17:41 Yeah, I think a million dollars is a lot of money.
1:17:45 But the opportunity here because it’s open and freely accessible
1:17:47 by everyone is to put on a show.
1:17:49 And then you get a million every year.
1:17:51 If this is a crazy, exciting event,
1:17:55 the funding is going to be so easy year after year.
1:17:57 And the other aspect we’re doing to it
1:18:00 is unfortunately I’m not going to make any money off this thing.
1:18:03 It’s a non-profit and the money from charity.
1:18:05 Except the only fans, but whatever.
1:18:06 That’s the real cash count.
1:18:09 But that’s the real work too.
1:18:09 Yeah.
1:18:10 And that’s not for charity.
1:18:13 That’s for your personal bank account.
1:18:14 The only fans.
1:18:15 Or you’re also-
1:18:17 That’ll be for the follow-up therapy.
1:18:21 But that’ll be expensive gig for whoever takes that on board.
1:18:22 Love hurts.
1:18:24 That physically will, yeah.
1:18:27 Ticket proceeds to charity.
1:18:29 So like obviously we’ve got the three million dollar budget.
1:18:30 We’ve got production expenses.
1:18:33 We’ve got the team of staff to hire.
1:18:37 But if we could sell this thing out,
1:18:39 we could potentially donate a ton of money to charity.
1:18:42 One of those charities is Tap Cancer Out.
1:18:44 And what’s great about this is Rich Burn
1:18:48 is a black belt from New York who’s in the banking world.
1:18:50 He used to run an event called Kasai Grappling.
1:18:53 He went through cancer.
1:18:55 He basically had a very aggressive cancer.
1:18:56 He had it treated.
1:19:00 And now he basically has said to us
1:19:03 that whatever we donate from the profits of the event,
1:19:05 he’s going to match dollar for dollar.
1:19:09 And we’ve also had another guy who wants to remain anonymous
1:19:11 agree to match dollar for dollar as well.
1:19:15 So the more ticket sales revenue we can create here,
1:19:16 the more we can actually give back to charity.
1:19:18 So it’s really all-round.
1:19:20 It’s going to be a great event.
1:19:21 Yeah, Tap Cancer Out is great.
1:19:24 And all the charities that the athletes have been selecting are great.
1:19:26 What’s been the hardest?
1:19:29 You are wearing a suit.
1:19:30 So you figured out how to do that.
1:19:32 The tie was difficult, for sure.
1:19:33 The tie was difficult.
1:19:34 But you figured it out.
1:19:37 And congratulations on that.
1:19:39 But you’ve never run a tournament.
1:19:44 I’ve never wrestled a big woman either.
1:19:46 Well, I have, but not in this form.
1:19:49 Not in a competitive environment for only fans.
1:19:53 What’s been the hardest aspects of actually bringing this to life?
1:19:56 The first one was people believing it was real.
1:19:58 That was quite difficult.
1:20:00 And then communicating with the athletes.
1:20:05 That’s basically my responsibility is securing these guys,
1:20:06 getting these guys to commit to things.
1:20:09 They’re very, it’s very difficult.
1:20:14 There’s a reason a few athletes in every sport really stand out.
1:20:17 And it’s kind of professionalism and kind of the way they market themselves.
1:20:21 And I think those two things do go hand in hand.
1:20:22 So we’re in a sport where there’s not enough money,
1:20:24 where a lot of these guys do have managers.
1:20:28 I think in MMA, things would be a lot easier for the promoter
1:20:30 because you’re not talking directly to the athlete.
1:20:32 You’re talking to a guy who might,
1:20:36 who’s obviously taken a cut, but like he’s, there’s a middleman.
1:20:39 So in a situation where you’re talking directly to the athlete,
1:20:41 it can be very difficult, can be very annoying,
1:20:43 can be very hard to reach these guys.
1:20:44 They can be very noncommittal.
1:20:47 That, for me, has been one of the biggest challenges.
1:20:49 The guys that I speak to that are like, “I’m in.”
1:20:51 And then they’re like, “I’m out. I’m in.”
1:20:52 Like navigating this area.
1:20:58 One other aspect is, because we did this basically from idea to event,
1:21:01 we’ll be less than three months, three and a half months.
1:21:04 So it’s like we’re having to do so much in such a short period of time.
1:21:08 Little things like, of the show money we’ve given them,
1:21:14 they’re expected to basically secure their own flight and hotel to the event.
1:21:17 We’re cutting down on staff, because that would be one of the,
1:21:20 if I had to coordinate getting these guys’ flights,
1:21:22 I would just jump off a building.
1:21:26 Like it’s hard enough to get them to agree to the event, let alone coordinate.
1:21:28 Hey, what date do you want to come in?
1:21:29 It’s like hurting cats.
1:21:33 So really just the interpersonal stuff’s been difficult.
1:21:38 Obviously going up against ADCC, the legacy event has been pretty damn difficult as well.
1:21:41 Well established, huge history.
1:21:43 They’ve been selling tickets for two years.
1:21:45 Everyone’s known it’s been coming for two years.
1:21:49 That thing was largely sold out before we even announced the event.
1:21:52 So we’re going head to head with this event.
1:21:54 So from a ticket sales perspective, very difficult.
1:21:56 What’s been Reddit question?
1:21:59 What’s been the most surprising people who turned down on your invite?
1:22:03 Oh, I mean, we can name names.
1:22:08 I mean, obviously Kynan, he was a semi in, semi out.
1:22:12 His suggestion was actually to do a second and third place prize.
1:22:14 Rather than a million.
1:22:17 And I’m like, no, we want all or nothing.
1:22:19 It’s all or nothing here.
1:22:21 Well, that’s a better spectacle, better entertainment.
1:22:21 Yeah.
1:22:24 Probably more injuries, but it’s all or nothing.
1:22:27 Miki Galvão, the one that got away.
1:22:28 Yeah.
1:22:29 That’s sad.
1:22:31 But we’ve got the Rotolos.
1:22:36 The Rotolos props to these kids because Kade’s the reigning champion.
1:22:38 These are two of the best guys in the sport.
1:22:45 Allegedly were offered pretty significant show money to stay.
1:22:49 But they hit me up and they said, hey, promise us one thing.
1:22:54 We’re on opposite sides of the brackets and we’ll fight to the death and the final for the million.
1:22:58 And we know, everyone knows that we’ve seen them compete against each other multiple times.
1:23:04 So that was not a surprise because I know they’re good kids, but to basically turn down
1:23:09 allegedly show money to do this event, to support the event, to me is incredible.
1:23:12 Miki Galvão, things would be more complicated there.
1:23:18 Like obviously, Miki officially joined ADCC before we secured the Rotolos.
1:23:20 Kade beat him in the final.
1:23:23 Miki is personally motivated to face off against Kade.
1:23:26 So he didn’t know Kade was in our event before he agreed to ADCC.
1:23:33 There’s more to that story too in terms of Miki doing ADCC because a bunch of the kids in his team,
1:23:36 I think they’re being flown out to do the ADCC kids events.
1:23:40 So there’s like his two teammates, well, at least one of his teammates will be doing
1:23:43 the ADCC 66 kilo division.
1:23:47 His dad, his coach, doesn’t really want to split time between two events.
1:23:49 That’s a difficulty for athletes there.
1:23:54 But obviously disappointing, we couldn’t secure Miki.
1:23:56 Miki said he was about the legacy.
1:23:59 So he wanted to be the youngest guy ever to double Grand Slam,
1:24:05 which is basically win all the GEE events and win the ADCC that same year.
1:24:12 My thoughts were, if I was in his position, and I never was obviously a prodigy,
1:24:19 a talent like that, is I thought he had a position to make a statement in the sport,
1:24:22 to kind of, as cheesy as it sounds, be on the right side of history,
1:24:29 to have turned down a double Grand Slam to be in an event that supports athlete pay.
1:24:34 Again, I don’t overly criticize him, but I think in terms of your legacy and reputation,
1:24:41 to be at a point and choose to do that is much more memorable than him getting that
1:24:46 double Grand Slam, which I’m sure he will win the ADCC 77 kilo division this year,
1:24:49 but it’ll be somewhat tarnished anyway.
1:24:53 So I do feel bad for some of the athletes that win this year, and potentially people will be like,
1:24:56 oh yeah, but there was half the people winning the division.
1:25:02 I feel bad for those guys, but at the end of the day, most of these guys had an opportunity
1:25:06 to be a part of an event that really there’s no downside to.
1:25:09 You’ll have a chance to be paid more money than you’ve ever been paid in your life.
1:25:17 You’re selling tickets that are going to go to charity, and it’s not behind a pay wall,
1:25:22 so anyone anywhere in the world can stream this event, watch it, and there’s no barrier
1:25:29 to entry in terms of finances. Was there ever any chance that Gordon Ryan would enter?
1:25:33 I don’t think so. I don’t think so. Is that something you tried?
1:25:37 Me and Gordon don’t text each other too often. I tag him on Instagram and things,
1:25:41 but he doesn’t respond. Tell me about your history with Nicholas Marigali.
1:25:45 My history with Nicholas Marigali. Actually, it dates back to a time where probably
1:25:52 he does not even remember, back when I used to wear a kimono. I went to Abu Dhabi World
1:25:58 Pro’s chasing my ghee dreams. I lost in, I kind of remember, again, probably the final,
1:26:03 not me. I probably lost in the final against Tommy Langlanca in the weight division.
1:26:06 This was the last year they did the absolute. I went into the absolute.
1:26:11 I made it all the way to the semis. Nicholas Marigali destroyed me in the ghee.
1:26:15 I did hit a nice little reversal on him, though. He passed my guard,
1:26:19 and I somehow reversed him from side control. That’s the only part of the match I share,
1:26:23 after which he swept me, submitted me. You reversed him from side control?
1:26:28 Yeah. Okay. So that could be like an instructional.
1:26:32 I could. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. But right place, right time, though.
1:26:40 But then years later, I left the team. Marigali replaced me. So they brought in a more credentialed,
1:26:44 handsome, doesn’t speak as well, but they brought him in. He’s my replacement.
1:26:51 He’s coming to the team. We faced off at ADCC. I do a heavier division thinking,
1:26:54 I looked at the names and I was like, that looks like an easier division.
1:26:58 And I had two teammates at the time that were in my 88. And I was like,
1:27:02 those guys will have to face off first round. I’ll have to face one of them second round,
1:27:07 the way they do the seating and the structure of the bracket. So I was like, I’ll do 99.
1:27:12 I’ll leave 88 for the boys. They both lost my division first round, unfortunately.
1:27:17 So I faced off against Marigali beginning of day two, a lot of pressure,
1:27:20 because Danaher’s used to corner me, used to be my coach.
1:27:26 Now he’s cornering the Brazilians who we used to complain about as the enemy.
1:27:30 And I’m like, what’s going on over here? So karate kid stuff. I faced off against Marigali.
1:27:34 I’d go hard early because I think you can’t defend leg locks.
1:27:37 For the first three minutes, I’m just attacking legs, legs, legs.
1:27:42 I ended up sweeping him getting on top. No points before the points period,
1:27:44 but I’m very tired. I’m very tired at this point.
1:27:48 Marigali is big. Like there’s some guys that get juiced up to hit a certain weight.
1:27:52 That’s what I did to enter this division. You can’t keep your gas thing.
1:27:56 Marigali is just a big dude. Who knows if he’s on the juice or not,
1:28:02 but he’s just naturally sits around 230 pounds or even 225.
1:28:04 When you’re naturally that big, your gas tank’s a bit better.
1:28:08 Again, if you’re ballooning yourself up on every substance possible,
1:28:11 gas tank’s surprisingly not too good. So we have a bit of a close one.
1:28:16 Decision goes my way. Ultimately, finals next, I lose that.
1:28:18 But that is sort of our competitive history.
1:28:24 We were meant to have a match that had been pre-booked immediately after ADCC.
1:28:31 So we agreed to this before ADCC. I was like, the price is right. I’m in.
1:28:34 So I signed up for it and I’m thinking ADCC that we’re going to face off soon after.
1:28:39 Marigali chose instead to have some vacation time. He wanted to go on vacation.
1:28:43 He wanted to relax. A bit of relaxation down in Brazil.
1:28:49 So the match is scrapped. Flow hit me up and they say, can you do February?
1:28:52 And this was about the time that Volks fought Islam in Perth.
1:28:56 I was like, no, I can’t do February because I’ll be helping Volkanowski.
1:28:59 That’s going to take precedence over this match.
1:29:03 Flow goes, we’ll announce it anyway. We’ll sell those tickets anyway.
1:29:05 We’ll get the people hyped and then we’ll just have people out.
1:29:08 And I’m like, all right, do whatever you want.
1:29:12 That’s probably not a good idea, but they do that.
1:29:16 And then people keep trying to re-book this match.
1:29:22 But now I barely even train anymore. I’m busy being a promoter, traveling around.
1:29:26 So now instead of facing them in competition again,
1:29:29 which I would do if the price was right. That’d have to pay me very well.
1:29:33 Two of the shows have offered me the match, but the money terrible.
1:29:36 What do you think is the number that would convince you?
1:29:40 It would have to be, I would think, half a million dollars.
1:29:43 Otherwise, I just can’t be bothered, you know what I mean?
1:29:47 It’d have to be worth it because to put a price on a guy that takes himself
1:29:50 as serious as Marigali. Marigali is a very serious man.
1:29:54 He’s talking about authenticity. He’s talking about words he doesn’t even understand.
1:30:01 For me to give him the opportunity to live in a world where he had won the last match against me,
1:30:04 it’s hard to put a price on that. You know, when people say it’s not about the money,
1:30:10 it’s not about the money. It’s about me waking up every day, knowing that he knows he lost to me.
1:30:12 So you think you’ve gotten it in his head?
1:30:13 Yes.
1:30:17 How do you think you would do if you were to face him for the said 500,000?
1:30:19 For the 500?
1:30:20 Yeah.
1:30:23 I think over five minutes, I beat anyone in the world.
1:30:26 You still think you got it?
1:30:28 I still think I got it. Gabby about to find out.
1:30:33 All right, so you’re going to make a statement with Gabby.
1:30:37 It’ll be a match she remembers.
1:30:42 Yeah, she for sure. I think the fans remember it as well.
1:30:48 I’m open to it. If we do this match, I’m taking it very serious, but we’d be open to rematches.
1:30:51 I’ve always said I would have a MMA fight with her.
1:30:54 I wouldn’t be afraid to hit a big woman.
1:31:02 So unlike with Marigali, if you win, you’re not going to ride off to the sunset with Gabby.
1:31:05 I’m a bit of a romantic. I think she deserves a few finishes, you know?
1:31:07 Not one and hit the bed that night.
1:31:10 So you think you can actually beat Nicholas Marigali?
1:31:13 I think so, yeah. I mean, you could throw a riddle at him before the match.
1:31:16 That would fucking complicate things for him for the next hour.
1:31:19 Will you and Gord never get along again?
1:31:26 I think so. I think we need, the origins of MDMA was couples therapy in the ’70s in Houston,
1:31:30 I believe. I believe something like that for us could resolve these underlying issues.
1:31:35 You’re a man of Reddit because they suggested that you should consider ketamine therapy sessions.
1:31:37 Just imagine a therapist sitting down with him.
1:31:41 They’ll be like clear the schedule for the next couple of weeks.
1:31:45 With all due respect, Greg, I can’t imagine a therapist sitting down with you.
1:31:46 That would be a terrifying question.
1:31:49 I do have a therapist actually. They prescribe me Vi-Vance.
1:31:52 He’s quite comforting in my well being.
1:31:53 Is this the man of Mubali or what did you mean?
1:31:56 It’s a Russian website.
1:32:01 It’s the old Sean Connery thing. It’s not a therapist.
1:32:02 It’s just something that’s spelled the same.
1:32:07 I think me and Gordon, a debate of some type would be awesome.
1:32:08 Like a political debate?
1:32:12 Yeah, me representing Kamala Harris and him representing Donald Trump, okay.
1:32:15 So intellectual sparring.
1:32:17 An intellectual battle, a battle of wits.
1:32:20 Can you just speak to your trolling?
1:32:28 Is there like underneath at all, is there just a respect the human beings you go after?
1:32:31 For sure. They have to be worthy of being attacked.
1:32:31 You know what I mean?
1:32:37 That’s the thing. It’s like you want a worthy adversary.
1:32:42 Not in a sense of I don’t want to battle someone that has better banter than me
1:32:46 because I’m going to lose, but I want to battle someone with a profile large enough
1:32:48 that it doesn’t look like you just…
1:32:53 Who do you think is the biggest troll or shit-talker in martial arts?
1:32:54 Hanata Laranjo.
1:33:00 Yeah, well, you can’t even put him in the, he’s in another class of human being.
1:33:02 He’s overqualified.
1:33:03 Chail Solonen comes to mind.
1:33:04 Chail’s good.
1:33:07 You versus Chail. Who’s a better shit-talker?
1:33:10 If you look the entirety of the career.
1:33:11 Chail is better.
1:33:15 I mean, I think if you can shit-talk in MMA because there’s far worse consequences for you.
1:33:19 If you’re still willing to do it when really violent things can happen to you.
1:33:25 I mean, I’m getting death threats, but like he has a certainty of violence against
1:33:28 his opponents in MMA.
1:33:32 So on Reddit, somebody said you are a Coral Belt level troll
1:33:35 and just happened to be good at jujitsu.
1:33:39 So what did it take for you to rise to the ranks of trolling
1:33:42 from white belt to black belt to Coral Belt?
1:33:44 Like what’s your journey?
1:33:44 We’re talking shit.
1:33:46 That’s a good question.
1:33:51 Hey, I think it would have happened after I moved to America because in Australia,
1:33:55 like we just on a daily basis say some of the worst things you could ever imagine.
1:33:56 Like in private life.
1:33:59 Yeah, just we’re just trying to ruin each other’s day.
1:34:05 In a way that’s so blasé, you’re going back and forth and the guy that actually gets upset
1:34:09 and says some real shit, that’s your victory.
1:34:09 You know what I mean?
1:34:11 Like you’re like, oh, we got you.
1:34:12 You’re actually, that actually bothers you.
1:34:14 All right, we’ll take that as a victory.
1:34:17 All right, so when you come to America and everybody takes themselves a little too seriously,
1:34:22 those are just a bunch of victims that you can take advantage of.
1:34:28 An Australian entering American banter is like Neo getting his matrix skills.
1:34:30 You’re just like, whoa, I see everything coming.
1:34:35 Do you ever look in the mirror and like regret how hard you went in the paint?
1:34:36 That’s somebody?
1:34:39 I don’t think so.
1:34:40 I don’t think so.
1:34:42 You see you’re proud of yourself?
1:34:44 I think what I offer is some balance.
1:34:48 It’s like I’m bringing some justice.
1:34:51 Ultimately, it’ll probably come back in spades to me.
1:34:55 Yeah, I don’t know, as a fan of yours, as a fan of Gordon’s also,
1:34:59 but as a fan of yours, I see the love behind it.
1:35:00 I don’t know, it seems always just fun.
1:35:02 The shit talking seems fun.
1:35:03 I wish you’d buy it back.
1:35:05 It doesn’t buy it back anymore though.
1:35:10 What’s your relationship like with Mo, the organizer of ADCC?
1:35:13 I mean, it’s been a love-hate relationship.
1:35:14 It’s like Gabby.
1:35:19 Like any good relationship, if you don’t get blocked at the end of it,
1:35:21 will you really in love to begin with?
1:35:26 That’s my thoughts anyway, but so in terms of my friendship with Mo,
1:35:28 me and Mo were really close friends for a long time.
1:35:29 We’d talk a lot.
1:35:34 He was instrumental in us moving down to her death squad to Puerto Rico.
1:35:39 He lives in Puerto Rico, spends most of his time in Puerto Rico.
1:35:44 I’ve spent time with him in Florida, California,
1:35:50 but in terms of our relationship, I’m trying to think of an exact time where it went south,
1:36:00 but I guess in my, him being the ADCC organizer, in my attack of athlete compensation
1:36:09 was taken personally, which is obviously going to ruin whatever friendship you had.
1:36:12 And that started around the time you weren’t thinking about CJA?
1:36:22 I mean, to be honest, CJAI was a result of the response of my discussion of athlete compensation.
1:36:28 So me and Mo had been close friends, even after the down to her team broke up.
1:36:31 We were still close friends for quite a while after that.
1:36:36 But it does complicate things when someone is full intensive purposes.
1:36:42 He, as an ADCC competitor, and he runs ADCC, the event, he’s in control of it now.
1:36:43 He is your boss.
1:36:47 So that does complicate our friendship.
1:36:50 Have you had a conversation since you announced CJAI?
1:36:52 Have we had a conversation?
1:36:54 When did you get blocked?
1:36:56 I don’t see you getting blocked, I was just joking.
1:37:01 Honestly, we had a disagreement about athlete compensation.
1:37:07 I said, let’s do a podcast and talk about her, because I’m a big fan of transparency.
1:37:16 If you think I’m an idiot for thinking athletes should get paid more, tell me it, show it to me.
1:37:18 And I’ve made public statements.
1:37:21 Other people have asked why we don’t get paid more money.
1:37:28 You can both tell me and the world at the same time, the grappling world at the same time,
1:37:29 but was not interested in doing a podcast.
1:37:33 Again, maybe thought I was going to hit him with some gotcha questions or something.
1:37:37 But really, at the end of the day, I personally believe you’ve got nothing to hide.
1:37:41 If you are confident in the business decisions you’ve made,
1:37:45 then there’s no gotcha moment that I could actually do.
1:37:48 I could easily, I would have done the podcast if I look like a complete idiot,
1:37:52 would have released it anyway, because it would be a good message to where we are in the sport.
1:37:55 But again, considering what I know about Thomas and Max Price,
1:38:01 which I believe we’re paying $200,000 for, and T-Mobile’s $2 million,
1:38:08 how do you justify no increase in athlete pay while we have a $1.8 million increase in venue cost?
1:38:12 So you’re saying there could potentially be poor business decisions, poor allocation of money
1:38:16 that could be reallocated better to support the athletes?
1:38:23 I’ve never once thought this was some organization where Moe’s like stealing money for himself.
1:38:28 I’m just saying that, and again, the road to hell’s paved with good intentions.
1:38:33 So he might fully think that what he’s doing is going to grow the sport.
1:38:36 I’m going about it in a completely different way.
1:38:38 I don’t think we need T-Mobile.
1:38:40 I don’t think we need a bond of paywall.
1:38:46 I think we need cheap venue, still maintain good quality production, release it for free.
1:38:50 If you want something to grow, present it for free.
1:38:53 Is there a future where the two of you talk?
1:38:57 Yeah, for sure. He keeps insisting on talking face to face.
1:39:03 I don’t have a problem with that, but my argument is this is a public feud, the public.
1:39:06 We’re having a disagreement.
1:39:10 Let’s settle the disagreement in a way that answers the question to the fans,
1:39:19 because if one of us is a complete idiot, then I believe the world of people following this story
1:39:22 are entitled to know which one of us is an idiot.
1:39:25 If you talk to him, would you be good faith?
1:39:31 Would you turn the troll down from 11 to a three?
1:39:32 I don’t even think I need to troll him.
1:39:35 I just say, hey, show us the books.
1:39:41 Honestly, when our event’s done, we’re going to be pretty transparent.
1:39:43 Obviously, we are ran as a non-profit.
1:39:46 We’re going to be pretty transparent about everything.
1:39:50 Obviously, ultimately, all the views we get,
1:39:55 when an event’s on flow grappling or flight pass or any other streaming provider,
1:40:00 unless it’s a paper view, you’re not going to know how many people watched.
1:40:07 That’s one aspect of what we’re doing is we’re going to have a visual guide
1:40:10 to how many people are fans of grappling.
1:40:12 Yeah, transparency in all of its forms.
1:40:14 That’s what bothers me about the ILC with the Olympics,
1:40:19 is that there’s this organization that puts on an incredible event,
1:40:21 but it’s completely opaque.
1:40:22 It’s not transparent.
1:40:25 The athletes don’t get paid almost at all.
1:40:32 So it’s usually from sponsorships, and they sell distribution, broadcast distribution.
1:40:35 And so it’s mostly paywalled after the fact.
1:40:40 It’s very — unless you’re a super famous athlete or a famous event, it’s hard to watch,
1:40:47 I don’t know, the early rounds of the weightlifting or the judo or all of the competitions,
1:40:53 where most of those athletes get paid almost nothing, and they’ve dedicated their whole life.
1:40:58 Like, they’ve sacrificed everything to be there, and we don’t get to watch them openly.
1:41:01 You can’t — in many cases, you can’t even pay for it.
1:41:06 With ILC, I’ve got to experience this because I’ll have like podcast conversations with like
1:41:08 judoka, for example.
1:41:15 And I put like a little clip in a podcast, and the Olympics channel takes it down immediately.
1:41:19 So they have all the videos uploaded private.
1:41:20 They’re private.
1:41:21 Oh, to flag the copyright.
1:41:23 They just flag the copyright automatically.
1:41:26 From the private videos, they could release.
1:41:29 They could release somewhere, even if it’s paywall, which I’m against,
1:41:31 but paywall it, but make it super easily accessible.
1:41:33 So the flow grappling model is still okay.
1:41:37 I’m against it, but if you do a really good job of it, okay,
1:41:41 I can kind of understand a membership fee, but like it should be super easy to use.
1:41:45 But in the case of the Olympics, first of all, in the case of the Olympics,
1:41:49 the whole point of the Olympics is for it to be accessible to everybody.
1:41:54 So paywalling goes against the spirit of the Olympic Games.
1:41:56 And I will say the same is probably true for many sports like grappling,
1:42:02 especially for major events like ADCC, that I feel like they should be openly accessible to
1:42:04 everybody, like on every platform.
1:42:09 But you — what was the decision like for you to make it accessible on YouTube and X?
1:42:15 Well, I mean, just because basically it’s going to grow the sport, you know what I mean?
1:42:23 If you have to subscribe to a platform to watch something you have a mild interest in,
1:42:27 a mild curiosity in, there’s a financial barrier there.
1:42:33 So I want to open it up because again, we have an investor who’s contributing
1:42:37 and is happy for it to be spent this way, happy for us not to be held
1:42:41 hostage by these sort of streaming providers.
1:42:46 And really, like, again, I’m not making accusations against flow grappling or UFC
1:42:52 firebots. They are making the right business decision by not providing streamer numbers,
1:42:58 because that’s leverage that those people can use against the streaming provider.
1:43:01 But for me, as an individual athlete, that really wants to understand
1:43:07 the metrics of how many people actually watch this sport to leverage that in my own sponsorship
1:43:15 negotiations, then if I’m in a position to have this out free and also give every athlete involved
1:43:18 the same metrics and information, like, you will literally be able to see
1:43:25 the spikes when you compete and you’ll be able to take that and present it for opportunities
1:43:29 for sponsorships, for businesses to say, look, look how many views this got.
1:43:32 I was one of the most viewed moments of this event.
1:43:37 So I want to put the power back in the athlete and take it away from the host.
1:43:40 And it creates a lot of incentive for the athlete to make it exciting.
1:43:45 Yeah, this is your time. It might never happen again. I fully intend to run this every year.
1:43:48 That’s the goal. But again, it might never happen again.
1:43:56 Is there a possible future where the 2026 ADCC is run by Craig Jones?
1:44:03 Could I take over ADCC? I think from an ADCC perspective, it would make a lot of sense.
1:44:11 I think it would make a lot of sense to wait to see if this event turns into fire festival first
1:44:16 before you commit to something like that. But I think a more modern approach to the promotion
1:44:21 of the event. Again, I keep going back to the comedians. If you want to grow your brand,
1:44:28 whatever that may be, provide content for free and you can paywall eventually.
1:44:34 You can grow the audience, create the audience free. Again, if your goal is to create
1:44:39 a huge sport here, then it’s like if we’re already a niche sport
1:44:43 and competition aspect of that, is it even smaller niche,
1:44:47 then we need to grow that for providing this content for free.
1:44:52 Well, having just chatted with Ian Musk, who fundamentally believes that the most entertaining
1:44:57 outcome is the most likely, that to me, if the universe has a sense of humor,
1:45:03 you would certainly, Craig Jones would certainly be running ADCC, which would be,
1:45:06 I mean, it would just be like beautifully hilarious.
1:45:14 It would be a poetic ending. It would be an underdog story from a man that could never win the event
1:45:18 to run in the event on behalf of the shakedown dude.
1:45:28 So I saw a BTing videos of the CJI camp, people training super hard. So you aside who don’t
1:45:36 seem to do things in a standard way, what does it take to sort of put yourself in a peak shape,
1:45:41 peak performance for a huge event like the CJI or the ADCC?
1:45:47 I mean, psychologically, it’s really, really brutal. Like for me, any time I’m leading up to
1:45:54 any event of any meaningful significance, it’s horrible on a psychological level because you’re
1:45:59 always thinking about, are you training enough? Are you doing enough? If you feel any signs of
1:46:05 sickness, injury, the stress levels increase, your sleep quality decreases, it’s all those
1:46:09 little subtle things that are so hard to mitigate. So like whether you feel like you’re training
1:46:16 hard enough, you’re over-training, those to me are the most difficult aspects. And I think really,
1:46:20 those are an individual thing. And that’s really something where a coach can provide
1:46:27 what he thinks to you is the right amount of work. And I think that’s different for
1:46:31 different people. I think Nicky Rod could do eight hours a day. I mean, I think Nicky Ryan,
1:46:35 eight minutes. I saw a video of Nicky Ryan with the trash can throwing up.
1:46:39 Yes. And the top comment is like, that’s him doing the warm up.
1:46:48 That is satisfying to watch, honestly. Yeah. But yeah, so you’re supposed to train hard enough
1:46:53 to where you have this confidence that you’re prepared. Yeah. I mean, and it’s an impossible
1:46:59 thing to grasp. It’s like some of the best performances I’ve had. I’ve been cooled up last
1:47:06 minute or I’ve been sick or my camp’s been horrible. And for me personally, I’ve gone in there and
1:47:11 thought, uh, relaxed. Almost like, oh, well, you know, like you got cooled up a week ago.
1:47:17 You’re injured. You miss four weeks of your camp. And I went in there super relaxed and accepting
1:47:22 of the result and performed much better. Sometimes when I know three months out,
1:47:29 I’ve got an event coming up and that event only happens every two years. It just the stress of
1:47:35 that alone. Like I personally, on an individual level, more of a, I’d rather wing it. I’d rather
1:47:40 be in the stands and just roll down like Gunnar Nelson. I remember he had a brilliant performance
1:47:44 in an 80cc absolute and he was out drinking the night before. I had no idea he was competing the
1:47:48 next day. He was in the stands eating ice cream and they called his name out for the absolute and
1:47:53 he went out there and I believe he got bronze. I believe he beat Jeff Munson. So it’s like,
1:47:57 it’s different for different people. Obviously, you don’t want that to be the standard.
1:48:02 You’ve got to be putting in the work at all times. But even now in my crazy travel schedule,
1:48:12 where I don’t train anywhere near like I used to, as long as your game is technical and as long as
1:48:18 your body’s in good condition, I believe you can still train well against world-class guys. You
1:48:24 might not be able to do an hour straight, but if you’re technique orientated, you’re just losing
1:48:30 fitness. So is it possible to out-card your Craig Jones? Like is your game fundamentally
1:48:35 technique-based game? For sure. Yeah. I’ve never wanted to win anything bad enough to train properly
1:48:41 for it. Right. But isn’t that the secret to your success? Being lazy? I think so. I think that’s
1:48:49 the only logical explanation. And I also use it as mind games too. Again, no one knows whether
1:48:55 what I’m saying is true or not. And I’m not saying this story to say anything bad about my opponent
1:49:01 at the time. But I booked two matches and two consecutive weekends. And I’ve been traveling.
1:49:07 I think I just got back from one of my trips. I’ve been to the international snow. I didn’t
1:49:11 even know where the fuck I was. You’re in Texas right now, by the way, just in case you forgot.
1:49:18 Texas, just for you. Thank you, man. It’s an honor. But I hadn’t really even trained. I couldn’t
1:49:23 train. Like I was traveling, just had no ability to train. I trained for like a week, had the full
1:49:29 row match. And I said to myself, I was down in Mexico City. And I said, you know what?
1:49:36 If you win this match, you got to face Lovato next week. Don’t go out and party. Don’t celebrate
1:49:42 the victory. But as a 32-year-old man at the time hitting a flying triangle submission,
1:49:47 I thought that deemed a worthy after party. Yeah. And we got out of control that night.
1:49:51 And it wasn’t until the next day I woke up, I was like, oh, I have Lovato
1:49:55 next weekend. But I’m also, people don’t know whether I’m telling the truth or not. But it’s
1:49:59 also, I’m almost too honest because I’ll be like doing interviews saying, yeah, I was out partying,
1:50:04 I barely trained. The opponent looks into that and they question it. Is he telling the truth? Is
1:50:09 he baiting me? Is he really that unconcerned? You know what I mean? It’s almost a psychological
1:50:14 battle in and of itself. But for the most part, it’s true. So to you being psychological relax is
1:50:19 extremely important. Just not giving a damn. I wonder what that is. Not too much pressure.
1:50:24 I don’t want pressure. I don’t like the pressure. But you like the pressure when it comes to
1:50:30 internet shit-talking. Well, I mean, you get to silently sit back and think about a good response,
1:50:37 you know? Yeah. How important is it to just go crazy hard rounds leading up to competitions like
1:50:44 that? You said sort of, Nicky Rod, but on average, for athletes at the world-class level,
1:50:48 do you have to put in the hard rounds? Yeah, I think you have to put in the hard rounds.
1:50:52 It depends at what point in your career you are. You know, I think like
1:50:58 someone like Nicky Ryan might almost train too technically too often. And when he comes to
1:51:04 competition, it’s a confronting experience when someone hits him hard and he feels that pressure.
1:51:09 So I think different people require different things. When Nicky Rod is breaking the spine
1:51:15 of a 37-year-old father or three bus driver, it might be time for him to train in a more technical
1:51:19 manner. So it’s like you got to cater it to what they need. And again, depending on the opponent,
1:51:25 it’s a game of strategy, you know? Like for me, when I was more active, I look at an opponent
1:51:30 that I want, that I could steal some clout from, of which the clout you can make money. And I think
1:51:35 to myself, what’s the best rule set I can beat him in? That’s the strategy. And then how would
1:51:39 I beat him in that rule set? So there’s so many strategic layers to go above and beyond
1:51:48 just the training for me. But nowadays, I like to, if I train short duration, high intensity,
1:51:54 that’s the best of me. I don’t like this six, like 10, six minute rounds, whatever. Like I don’t
1:52:00 like this long training. I don’t like, it’s, it’s, for me, it’s too much toll on the body. I think
1:52:07 I go to the gym, we bang, maybe the first round slightly light, and then just banging out two
1:52:13 hard rounds tops, a little bit of problem solving, get out of that. Because you want to feel the,
1:52:18 a little bit of the competition intensity. That feels the best on my body.
1:52:22 Oh, when you’re traveling, you’re doing seminars and you’re just doing jiu-jitsu with folks.
1:52:28 Are you training with them? I’m sure there’s like, from everything I see, people would love
1:52:34 to train with you. Yeah, they want to, they want to, I mean, I don’t know what it is. Obviously,
1:52:41 you, I guess you, it’s like people want to play basketball with like a basketball star or something,
1:52:46 you know what I mean? But I guess if you played one-on-one with a basketball, there’s no great
1:52:53 risk of injury. You know, that’s the real problem is like, if you don’t roll at your seminar,
1:53:02 the seminar participants don’t feel like they got the full experience. But there’s snipers
1:53:07 at these seminars. There’s these sharks that’s circling wanting to attack you. And you have to
1:53:11 look at it, you look at it from both perspectives. I think you should provide excellent technique,
1:53:16 excellent question and answer time. And I think you should roll a little bit.
1:53:20 For the most part of these days, I’ll just roll 30 minutes straight. I’ll just do 10 guys,
1:53:25 three minutes, no break, 30 minutes straight. I might even get the guy to pick. Because again,
1:53:31 if you, some of these guys come in hot. Yeah, it’s terrifying, man. Because the thing is,
1:53:38 like with Anthony Bourdain, sort of analogy here, like you’re exploring all parts of the world.
1:53:43 You just want to be there in the culture, teach good techniques and just socialize. You don’t
1:53:48 want to like, there’s just a bunch of killers that are trying to like murder you. Yeah, to them,
1:53:55 they’re like, I get to test myself against a world-class athlete today. And to you, you’re like,
1:54:02 oh, I’m in Odessa. I’d like to get to know the people, try some food, have a couple of drinks
1:54:07 and enjoy the place. But to them, it’s time, it’s time to go. You got to rope it open a bit.
1:54:13 You know, like if I, if I meet pressure with pressure, I get tired. But if I don’t provide
1:54:18 resistance where they think there should be resistance, now it slows their pace down. They
1:54:25 get shocked a bit. But 100%, if I’m at a seminar and someone’s rolling too hard with me, if I
1:54:32 feel like I might get hurt, I will 100% rip a submission on them. You know what I mean? Like
1:54:37 it’s like, you’re confronted with a threat. You have to meet it with a threat. It’s like,
1:54:42 I’ve spoken about this with Ryan Hall. Ryan Hall, give him a warning and then gone. And I think it’s
1:54:48 perfectly acceptable. Like I won’t endanger them for no reason. But if you’re coming hot,
1:54:53 you better tap fast. If I feel a threat, you better tap. I’m not going to break it for the
1:55:01 sake of breaking it. But if you do some crazy shit that might potentially hurt me and I get a
1:55:08 submission and I’m tired, if you’re fresh, you can catch a heel hook, hold it tight. The guy
1:55:13 tries to wiggle out, you got it. If you’re tired and you’ve been nice with a heel hook
1:55:20 and then they slip out and club you in the head, then next time it’s going to be the last time.
1:55:24 Well, last time, see you’re another level. You and Ryan Hall are just world class. But
1:55:30 for me, I’m trying to find, navigate through this, because I’d like to be able to roll like
1:55:34 10 rounds for fun, for cultural. They’re coming for you too.
1:55:41 And unfortunately, ripping submissions or like Neon Belly, some kind of dominant position,
1:55:48 people don’t hear the message at all. Or if I let them submit me a bunch of times, they don’t
1:55:53 calm down either. So I’ve been trying to figure out how to solve that puzzle,
1:55:58 because I’d like to keep rolling with people across the world for like for many more years to
1:56:04 come. But it’s tough. You can’t do it. If you’ve reached any level of notoriety, whether it’s in
1:56:10 the sport or just as a celebrity, you’re better off to just have three, four trusted training
1:56:16 partners and train privately. That’s the sad situation. People used to say, “Oh, you could
1:56:23 be such and such a good anti-gym nut. Those days are over now. Now, if you show up and you have
1:56:30 any sort of name, they’re coming to kill, honestly, you’re better off.” It’s so much safer. Training
1:56:37 is about trusting. Trust is built from safe routes. Strangers, scary.
1:56:42 I don’t know. I’m trying to develop a radar when I look at a person, trying to like figure out
1:56:50 are they from Eastern Europe? I’ll tell you what, the most damp. That’s a good one. You know what,
1:56:56 anyone that wears a Pitbull sports rash guard or anyone from the country of Poland, be ready.
1:57:01 Oh, Polish people go hard. People go hard. I’ve never had a flow roll with a Polish person.
1:57:05 Somebody on Reddit asked, “How many legs did you break in Eastern Europe?”
1:57:10 Three or four. To send a message or just for your own personal enjoyment?
1:57:14 I don’t enjoy it. Don’t enjoy the violence.
1:57:21 It is humorous after the fact, though. It’s just like, “Hey, I’m jet lagged. I’m tired.
1:57:27 I’m here for you guys. Why are you trying to hurt me?” If I get a submission,
1:57:34 tap, don’t hesitate at all. Don’t hesitate. It’s like, you just use dangerous. It’s a dangerous
1:57:40 thing. When Stranger’s going crazy, they think they’re getting the invite to CJI if they tap me.
1:57:46 It’s just wild. Speaking of which, just for the hobbyist,
1:57:53 for a person just starting out, what wisdom can you provide? Say you were tasked with coaching
1:58:04 a hobbyist beginner. How would you help them become good in a year? What would be the training
1:58:08 regimen? What would be their approach, mental, physical, in terms of practice?
1:58:14 I mean, honestly, picking safe training partners and trying to understand the positions and not
1:58:20 just freaking out. You might escape if you freak out, but you also might be stuck in something
1:58:31 and you injure yourself. It’s just about longevity. If you can find a pace to train
1:58:38 out and intensity and the right people, you could potentially train five years without injury.
1:58:44 It’s really about how you move. If you are always moving in an explosive way,
1:58:48 eventually you’re going to do that from a position in which you can’t move and then
1:58:53 someone’s going to tear. You also want to be able to trust training partners
1:59:02 to not go too crazy and inflict too much pain. I think I’ve managed to avoid a lot of injuries
1:59:09 because I just never roll too athletically, explosively. I think I’m probably incapable
1:59:14 of moving at that rate of speed. That’s part of it is you, the way you move,
1:59:19 but I guess you also don’t allow anybody to put you in a really bad position in terms of hurting
1:59:25 you? I let them put me in bad position, but I try to stay relaxed at all times. That’s the key
1:59:35 here. Obviously, you’ve got the cheesy, keep it playful, but if you can remain calm in bad
1:59:40 positions, that is a skill. That’s your confidence, not in yourself, but that the other guy’s incapable
1:59:43 of submitting you. That’s the ultimate confidence. You can give them whatever you want. The thing
1:59:50 you want as a beginner is to focus on minimizing injury by relaxing, by not going, by not freaking
1:59:54 out. Yes, keeping it at a pace so you can understand what just happened. The thing is,
1:59:59 how do you know if you’re freaking out or not as a beginner? It feels like a… If you’re panicking.
2:00:06 Yes, that’s a good… I mean, I see a lot of beginners kind of breathing, starting to breathe
2:00:11 hard as they tense up. That’s probably underneath that is panic. If you can make someone panic,
2:00:16 you will fatigue them. It’s the same. Even if you’re higher level and you’re worried about getting
2:00:23 your guard past, it’s the panic that leads the fatigue and your guard retention. But if you’re
2:00:27 so flexible, you remain calm. I think it’s because you’re not panicked. Fear is the mind killer.
2:00:36 But also, you have one of the more innovative games in jujitsu history. How’d you develop that?
2:00:42 How do you continue throughout your career? How are you innovating? What was your approach
2:00:47 to learning and figuring positions out, figuring submissions out? I mean, financial motivation.
2:00:53 If you can hit moves and no one else knows how to do, you can sell those instructionals.
2:00:58 But also, it keeps it interesting because it’s like… I mean, it can get stagnant and boring.
2:01:03 A lot of people get to blue belt. They’re good at one thing. They only do that one thing.
2:01:10 I think it’s finding creative ways to beat people. Sometimes, creativity is in how they
2:01:15 respond to it. So, if you can find a humiliating move to do to someone, well, not even necessarily
2:01:19 humiliating, but a move that is unexpected. When you get who is something you don’t expect,
2:01:27 I think that is really one of the most fun aspects of it. I mean, you train to stay better
2:01:31 than the people you’re better than. That’s what keeps you in the game. And finding creative ways
2:01:35 to beat those people is some of the most entertainment.
2:01:41 So, that’s just something that brings you joy is by doing the unexpected.
2:01:47 Yeah. If you get swept with something that you don’t think should work, I think that’s fulfillment.
2:01:54 So, your game is even a bit trolley, interesting. But what’s the actual process of like with the
2:01:57 z-guard, all the innovative stuff you’ve done there? How do you come up with ideas there?
2:02:04 I mean, you’re just studying tape. Just study tape and try to reverse engineer. If I see something
2:02:09 or I train with someone and it feels, you know, when you have those moments where you’re like,
2:02:14 “Oh, I don’t even know what they’re doing here.” And if you can put someone in a position that
2:02:18 don’t understand, that’s also where they panic. So, it’s like creating different ways to make
2:02:24 people panic. But also, I mean, just innovation, like having fun with it. I guess the artistic
2:02:29 aspect of it is fun. You can be creative in how you can beat people.
2:02:37 Did you say artistic or artistic? Both. Just checking. What’s like the most innovative thing
2:02:41 you’ve come up with? What’s like some of the cooler ideas you’ve come up with on the mat?
2:02:46 I don’t think I’ve come up with anything, but I’ve popularized things, you know, like certain
2:02:53 styles of leg entry. I definitely didn’t invent them, but I popularized them. Octopus guard,
2:03:00 playing more from turtle, sort of the pinning style of game. Like, because of my jokes online,
2:03:05 put me in a position of power in the sport so that when I post content, it can popularize a move
2:03:10 or release an instruction or popularize a game. But it’s still, I’m not trying to sell inauthentic
2:03:18 products. I’m still, I want the technique to work be functional. But put some humor on top of it,
2:03:22 like Power Bottom, your instructional names are pretty good. And B, change that one. I saw
2:03:29 the name of that. I mean, unfortunately, Metta, the ads were not appreciating some of that humor.
2:03:34 So we had to soften the titles a bit. You got a phone call from the man and said,
2:03:42 change this. I didn’t. Allegedly, the company hosting it. Right. What do you think about Zuck
2:03:47 in general, like the fact that he trains Jitzen? Have you got a chance to train with him? Because
2:03:53 you train with Volk. I haven’t trained with him. I met him when Volk’s four deal here. We’ve spoken
2:04:01 briefly. Interesting guy for sure. Loves Jiu Jitsu. Loves MMA. He’s really intending to compete
2:04:07 in something, I think. Competed in Jiu Jitsu, intends to compete in MMA. Has a beginner’s mind,
2:04:14 his humble body. Interesting. Was he ever in consideration for CJIs? Oh, I mean, we would
2:04:19 love to have him. We’d love to have him. But he is coming off of ACL surgery. I think he’s returned
2:04:25 to sport. He’s August. So I think he’ll be back training again soon. Yeah. What’s your relationship
2:04:30 has been like with Volkanovsky? What have you learned about martial arts, about grappling,
2:04:35 and different domains, just training with him? I mean, for me personally, what’s so interesting
2:04:44 about Volkanovsky is, I guess, where he came from. It’s like you have preexisting ideas of
2:04:49 what a UFC champion is. Again, I would say it’s similar to when I started training Jiu Jitsu and
2:04:53 I first traveled to America and got to train with some really famous people. You realize how
2:05:01 relatable they are in some aspects. Volkanovsky trains a freestyle and it is humble beginnings,
2:05:07 humble origins. It’s like a small gym in a small sort of beach-side city. They run in puzzle mats.
2:05:13 You know what I mean? When you think UFC champion, you don’t think puzzle mat gym. You know what I
2:05:18 mean? Like he’s not training at an American top team. He’s not at one of these big gyms. So to me,
2:05:27 it just shows what you’re capable of through hard work and sort of self-educating in such an isolated
2:05:33 place. It’s insane to me that he’s still considered probably the power of our best featherweight ever,
2:05:39 in my opinion, and he’s basically come across and started late from a rugby background.
2:05:44 But also, in terms of what I’ve learned, on a technical level, I’ve picked up a lot of stuff
2:05:48 from him in sort of grappling exchanges, how to get back up. Obviously, wall wrestling,
2:05:56 in terms of how hard he trains, how hard he works, the cardio aspect is insane. His cardio
2:06:02 workouts are absolutely insane. So he’s the opposite of you. Complete, opposite of me, probably
2:06:09 publicly and privately as an athlete. Yeah. The amount of work he puts in and just his
2:06:14 sheer sort of mental willpower. I remember there’s been a couple of times where I’ve watched him do
2:06:19 weight cuts where like, that’s horrible. You’re watching your friend. Obviously, we started as
2:06:26 like basically, I would help him in certain jujitsu aspects and then becomes a close friend of yours.
2:06:33 But the whole process of the MMA fight is horrible, especially when you care about
2:06:38 the person fighting, because some of those weight cuts you see are awful. Like you’re
2:06:44 basically seeing guys’ eyes roll back in their head, like him just powering through a five kilo,
2:06:49 10 pound cut and just constantly talking about how easy it is. But while clearly,
2:06:55 I mean, these guys look like they’re dying, you know, like to push through that and then to push
2:07:02 through some of the moments in his fight to watch him be completely relaxed until like five minutes
2:07:06 before the fight. And then he starts talking about, you’re never going to take this belt away from
2:07:11 my family. Like he’s singing about his family before he fights his kids. You know, you see the
2:07:17 character change. It’s just absolutely insane to watch. On the other side of that is obviously
2:07:24 watching the ups and downs. There’s been so many ups, the last two have been downs. So you see in
2:07:31 the full spectrum of the highest highs and the lowest lows. How is he able to deal psychologically
2:07:37 with loss? I don’t know. Obviously still hungry, still motivated. Obviously I thrive in a losing
2:07:44 environment, but him on the other hand, I’m not sure. We don’t talk too much on that level.
2:07:48 Obviously we check in his friends, see what he’s up to, see what he’s planning. We were trying to
2:07:55 get him a grappling match at CJR. I won’t say the reasons it fell through, but we were setting
2:08:04 one up with Mikey Musimichi, but we couldn’t get it done. And you can’t say the reasons why.
2:08:07 I’d say the reason, but it would have been awesome. You think you could have set that up if you had
2:08:12 more time? Like set something like, like part of the challenge here is for some of these gigantic
2:08:20 matchups. I feel like it takes time to record them. Being the promoter, tournament, not as bad.
2:08:26 The super fights, really, really difficult. I don’t think we could have set it up with more time,
2:08:30 that particular match, but that was the dream. That’s what we’re hoping to do.
2:08:33 But there’s a lot of other interesting matchups you could have possibly gotten through
2:08:37 if there’s more time. Yeah, I’d love to see. I mean, personally, I really want to see
2:08:43 Volks and Ortega have an actual grappling match because we saw him get out of those
2:08:47 deep submissions and apply a ton of ground and power. I’d love to see him just have a grappling
2:08:53 match. I’d love to see more of the UFC stars have grappling matches, especially if they’ve had any
2:08:57 head trauma in a fight. It’s like, “Hey, let’s keep them busy.” Because as you see,
2:09:02 some of those guys go crazy if they can’t train. What about the fights against Makachev?
2:09:07 You think Volk can beat him? I think the first fight showed he could beat him, for sure,
2:09:12 showed it’s possible. Even in the second fight, when he reversed the grappling exchange,
2:09:19 I wish he’d tried to take Makachev down. I really think he has a huge strength advantage
2:09:23 against Makachev. I personally believe he has a fence-wrestling advantage. You might not see it
2:09:33 in a sense of the technical hip tosses and things like that. I do believe Volk is one of the best,
2:09:38 if not the best, K-dresser in the world. Who do you think wins in a grappling match?
2:09:45 That would be interesting. The problem is, while you are a champion like Islam is,
2:09:48 you could just never book him. You could never get it.
2:09:52 What do you think makes the Dagestani wrestlers and fighters so good?
2:09:58 I think personally, those guys are just like, they just love it. It’s just about like,
2:10:06 it’s how they train. It’s a fight to the death. It’s just built in them. They don’t want to concede
2:10:12 an inch ever. I think for MMA and wrestling, that can be very, very good. I think sometimes
2:10:17 when those guys come over to G2 specific events, they get leglocked, they fall into traps, overly
2:10:23 aggressive or overly evasive. I think the way they train just is perfect for a fight. A fight,
2:10:28 they can just forward pressure, eat some shots, grind a guy against the wall.
2:10:36 Fence wrestling is technical. Jiu Jitsu is far more technical. There’s way more things you can do
2:10:41 in a grappling scenario from top and bottom than I think against the wall. A grinding nature of how
2:10:47 they train works really good to walk a guy down and take him down against the wall. Obviously,
2:10:53 with ground and pound, very good to hold a guy down. So I think just never conceding an
2:10:58 inch in training is just, they’ve done that since they were born, basically.
2:11:01 So you learn how to grind somebody down. Yeah, like they’re just trying to break
2:11:09 each other at all times, trying to have some dominance over their friends and they train with.
2:11:12 But you think in the grappling context, that they will not always translate?
2:11:18 Not when you can pull guard and submit from your back. I think that sort of negates some
2:11:26 of that grinding pressure. I think that has to be met with more slow, technical lateral movement.
2:11:30 I think that’s the way you… That would be the dream for me is that guy just comes
2:11:36 straightforward into my guard. So that grinding approach works well if he’s taken me down and
2:11:42 got already close to me. But if I’m laying flat on my back and he’s standing and he has to engage,
2:11:49 he has all that danger at range. But if he can connect to my body before we go down,
2:11:54 now we’re in his world again, I think. I wonder if it’s like, at his prime could be versus you,
2:11:59 for example. Who do you think wins there? Buggy choke for sure. Buggy choke, no way.
2:12:03 I know you’re joking. We’re getting with the buggy, I reckon.
2:12:10 Really? So you can get a buggy choke at the highest level. Can you educate me on that?
2:12:14 I think that legitimately can work at the highest level. Buggy choke for sure, yeah.
2:12:23 Really? Catch anyone. Really? Okay. You’re not a buggy believer. I’m not a buggy hater either.
2:12:29 I’m agnostic on the buggy choke. Kabebe would go to sleep for sure.
2:12:35 Yeah? Yeah. There’s no way he would tap to a buggy choke. I try… Who was it I faced recently?
2:12:39 I faced Russian guy from Tatar. I couldn’t buggy him. I was trying to close guard one,
2:12:45 though. It is harder to pull off. I had to put him to sleep twice at the end of the
2:12:53 match with a triangle, but he was just willing. Eastern European guys, they’re treating it like
2:13:00 a real fight, you know? Have you ever gone hard with the Dagestani person? Grappling, wrestling?
2:13:08 Any of the fighters, any of the MMA guys? Have I? I mean, they do train hard. They do train hard.
2:13:12 When I did the seminar in Odessa, it was at a school, but another school in the city
2:13:19 brought like 10 Dagestani guys. All of them went insanely hard. I was like, “Guys,
2:13:26 okay, it’s a small sample size, but they all wanted to be broken.”
2:13:30 What do you think, you as the wise sage of Jiu-Jitsu, if you look 10, 20 years out,
2:13:33 how do you think the game is going to evolve the art of it?
2:13:40 The art of it. I mean, I think obviously people are going to keep innovating, perfecting certain
2:13:45 things, throwing out information, bad sort of techniques, bad sort of, but I mean, it’s so hard
2:13:50 to predict. It’s like that’s the game of making money off the instructionals, is predicting
2:13:54 where we go next. It’s so, so difficult. What do you think is going to be the most popular
2:13:59 submissions, CGI and ADCC this year? Is it going to be Footlogs or Rear Naked?
2:14:06 I think, actually, CGI, I think there’s going to be a lot of guys that don’t tap to take injuries.
2:14:13 A small concern is that a guy wins the match, but is so injured, he can barely go on to the next
2:14:19 match, but win the battle, lose the war. We are going to see that, aren’t we? People refusing to
2:14:24 tap. We did the walkthrough yesterday and we were like, “One ambulance is not enough. Get a second
2:14:31 one here.” Because if they take one guy injured to hospital, we can’t continue until an ambulance
2:14:36 comes back. So these guys are going to go, everyone will be dying of standing for a day,
2:14:42 that’s what I think this tournament will achieve. But progression, it’ll just be the integration
2:14:48 of wrestling into Jiu Jitsu. I think that would be the most exciting way the sport could progress.
2:14:53 It’s basically folk-style wrestling, but an integration of submissions from the standing
2:14:59 position to, if you just follow the rules, you should always be fighting to get on top,
2:15:05 whether that’s a submission that leads to a sweep or a sweep, and you should be trying to avoid
2:15:11 being pinned. As long as the game revolves around that and guys engage each other offensively on
2:15:19 the feet, that would be the most exciting, best way to watch the sport. Yeah, when I show the
2:15:25 sport as Jiu Jitsu, the most exciting stuff is whenever both people want to be a wrestling,
2:15:31 scrambling wrestling, they both want to get on top. That looks like fighting versus guard stuff.
2:15:36 I’m a guy that totally agrees with you, but if I think the guy’s about to wrestle, I will concede.
2:15:42 It’s like, that’s the gas, the hard part. But then the whole crowd will then mock you
2:15:46 ceaselessly as they should for conceding. That’s what the million should be. We should have a
2:15:52 tournament or a round robin thing, where the million goes to the most exciting man who took
2:15:59 the most risks. In a way, that’s what’s going to happen because this is quite open. The benefit
2:16:05 of being exciting is you’re going to be glorified on social media. If you’re going to be boring
2:16:11 and stall, you’re going to be endlessly willified. Forget about medals. Social media glory is all
2:16:20 that matters. In a sense, on a basic human level. Not all that matters, but if you’re going to
2:16:26 stall, you’re going to become a meme, I feel like, especially with CTI. Are the refs going to try
2:16:31 to stop stalling? Yeah, we’re going to penalize them hard, hit them hard, get that boring shit out
2:16:39 of you. What percentage of athletes would you say are on steroids? 100%? Anyone that’s ever
2:16:46 beaten me. They’re taking more steroids than me. I don’t know. I wanted to test them, but not to
2:16:53 do anything bad, but just in the name of science to see what people are running. It’s so hard to
2:16:58 say because you train with people and they don’t even tell you what they’re on. I tell the world
2:17:03 what I’m on and they go, “Look at you. You’re not taking any steroids.” It’s such a secret
2:17:11 thing. Personally, it’s almost impossible to say, but occasionally you look at a guy and you’re
2:17:16 pretty certain. Yeah, it looks so. You could also go the other way. Certain people whose
2:17:22 genetic could build it and they look like they are, and then there’s probably others like yourself.
2:17:28 It’s a self-defense mechanism because you’d rather assume that that guy was on steroids than
2:17:34 his genetics are so far superior to yours. You’re like, “Nah, it must be steroids.”
2:17:39 Yeah, that’s the part of accusations of people being on steroids that I hate.
2:17:45 It’s like without data, people are just like, it’s a way they can say that somebody’s cheating
2:17:50 because I like celebrating people. Sometimes people aren’t on steroids and
2:17:53 they aren’t cheating and they’re just fucking good. What about Gabby Garcia?
2:18:02 I think she’s beautiful, strong, and you’re a lucky man to share the mat with her. You should
2:18:07 be honored. I’m betting a huge amount of money on her, so. Me too.
2:18:12 Either way, you’re going to get paid. She’s paying 11 to 1.
2:18:17 I bet on love as well, so we are aligned in that way. Love will prevail.
2:18:27 Okay, you put Alex Niels to sleep just to reflect back on that. He was too woke. You needed it.
2:18:32 That’s you fighting the woke mind virus or whatever. I think it was on the pulse too much.
2:18:36 What was that like? I didn’t see the full video. I just saw a little clip.
2:18:40 I thought he was dead for a second, but for some strange reason, couldn’t stop laughing.
2:18:45 I was like, “Please wake up.” There’s something funny about it, yeah.
2:18:47 I was like, “His blood pressure’s higher than mine. I hope that didn’t cook him.”
2:18:52 Yeah, that would be quite sad. It’s so crazy. He’s murdering somebody.
2:19:02 Yeah, he’s probably the most just entertaining human being ever. He just says the crate off air.
2:19:09 He’s always on. It’s like that’s just, he’s always ready to say some wild shit.
2:19:14 The craziest shit possible. What’s it like going to sleep? I somehow have never gone to sleep.
2:19:18 I went to sleep one time. Lachlan Jals was demonstrating a technique on me,
2:19:21 but I woke up straight away. But for 10 seconds, I didn’t know who I was,
2:19:24 where I was, what I was doing. But that’s it. That’s the only time I went out.
2:19:28 It’s so ending. It didn’t feel good though. Some people say it feels good. It did not feel good.
2:19:33 Because you were like wet panicked, lost. Yeah, I just didn’t know what was going on.
2:19:37 Yeah. And then you load that. That must be a cool feeling to load it all back in,
2:19:41 like realize where am I. I feel like that sometimes at a hotel when I’m like traveling.
2:19:45 It’s like, where the fuck am I again? When you wake up, maybe that’s what it’s like.
2:19:48 Some people push it too far. David Carradine, you know?
2:19:53 What? I’m too dumb to get that joke.
2:20:00 What a erotic asphyxiation. Oh, good. Thank you. Thank you. Now I know.
2:20:05 So given all the places you’ve gone, all the people you’ve seen recently,
2:20:11 what gives you hope about this whole thing we’ve got going on? About humanity, about this world?
2:20:15 We start war sometimes. We do horrible things to each other sometimes.
2:20:19 Wow. I missed all that. What gives you hope?
2:20:24 That you can still make fun of anything as long as it’s funny.
2:20:30 That’s what I’m fighting for. People talk about cancel culture. I just think the joke wasn’t
2:20:38 funny enough. Head pull delivery. Well, thank you for being at the forefront of making fun of
2:20:42 everything and anything. And thank you for talking today, brother.
2:20:46 Thank you, Brad. Thanks for listening to this conversation with Craig Jones.
2:20:50 To support this podcast, please check out our sponsors in the description.
2:20:53 And now let me leave you with some words from Anthony Bourdain.
2:20:59 Travel changes you. As you move through this life and this world, you change things slightly.
2:21:07 You leave marks behind, however small. And in return, life and travel leaves marks on you.
2:21:11 Thank you for listening. I hope to see you next time.
2:21:28 [Music]