#485 – David Kirtley: Nuclear Fusion, Plasma Physics, and the Future of Energy

0:00:08 The following is a conversation with David Kirtley, a nuclear engineer, expert on nuclear fusion, and the CEO of Helion Energy,
0:00:15 a company working on building nuclear fusion reactors and have made incredible progress in a short period of time
0:00:20 that make it seem possible like we could actually get there as a civilization.
0:00:29 This is exciting, because nuclear fusion, if achieved commercially, would solve most of our energy needs in a clean, safe way,
0:00:31 providing virtually unlimited clean electricity.
0:00:35 The problem is that fusion is incredibly difficult to achieve.
0:00:43 You need to heat hydrogen to over 100 million degrees Celsius and contain it long enough for atoms to fuse.
0:00:49 That’s why the joke in the past has been that fusion is 30 years away and always will be.
0:00:57 Just in case you’re not familiar, let me clarify the difference between nuclear fusion and nuclear fission.
0:01:05 By the way, I believe according to the excellent sample size subreddit post by PM Goodbeer on this,
0:01:17 The preferred pronunciation of the latter in the US is nuclear fission, like vision, and in the UK and other countries is nuclear fission, like mission.
0:01:20 I prefer the nuclear fission pronunciation.
0:01:24 I prefer the nuclear fission pronunciation because merica.
0:01:29 So today’s nuclear power plants use nuclear fission.
0:01:33 They split apart heavy uranium atoms to release energy.
0:01:35 Fusion does the opposite.
0:01:41 It combines light hydrogen atoms together, the same reaction that powers the sun and the stars.
0:01:50 The result is that it’s clean fuel from water, no long-lived radioactive waste, inherently safe because a fusion reactor can’t melt down.
0:01:53 If something goes wrong, the reactor simply stops.
0:01:56 And there’s no carbon emissions.
0:02:03 On a more technical side, Helion uses a different approach to fusion than has traditionally been done.
0:02:09 Most fusion efforts have used Takamax, which are these giant donut-shaped magnetic containment chambers.
0:02:12 Helion uses pulsed magneto-inertial fusion.
0:02:20 David gets into the super-technical physics and engineering details in this episode, which was fun and fascinating.
0:02:28 I think it’s important to remember that for all of human history, we’ve been limited by energy scarcity.
0:02:37 And every major leap in civilization, agriculture, industrialization, the information age, came in part from unlocking new energy sources.
0:02:49 If someone is able to solve commercial fusion, we would enter a new era of energy abundance that fundamentally changes what’s possible for us humans.
0:02:52 I’m excited for the future.
0:02:58 And I’m excited for super-technical physics podcast episodes.
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0:11:19 And now, dear friends, here’s David Kirtley.
0:11:37 Let’s start with a big picture.
0:11:39 What is nuclear fusion?
0:11:41 And maybe, what is nuclear fission?
0:11:43 Let’s lay out the basics.
0:11:46 So, fusion is what powers the universe.
0:11:55 Fusion is what happens in stars, and it’s where the vast amount of energy that even that we use today here on Earth comes from the process of fusion.
0:12:07 It also is what powers plants, and those plants become oil, and those become fossil fuels that then powers the rest of human civilization for the last hundred years.
0:12:16 And so, fusion really underpins a lot of what has enabled us as humans to go forward.
0:12:22 However, ironically, we don’t do it actively here on Earth to make electricity yet.
0:12:34 And so, fundamentally, what fusion is, is taking the most common elements in the universe, hydrogen and lightweight isotopes of hydrogen and helium, and fusing those together to make heavier elements.
0:12:44 In that process, as you combine atomic nuclei and form heavier nuclei, those nuclei are slightly lighter than the sum of the parts.
0:12:51 And that comes from a lot of the details of quantum mechanics and how those fundamental particles combine and interact.
0:12:59 We also talk about the strong nuclear force that holds the atomic nucleuses together as one of the fundamental forces involved in fusion.
0:13:06 But that mass defect, E equals mc squared, we know from Einstein, is also energy.
0:13:10 And so, in that process, a tremendous amount of energy is released.
0:13:16 And the actual reactions, I think, is a lot more interesting than simply it’s a little bit lighter and therefore energy is released.
0:13:23 But that’s the fundamental process in fusion is you’re bringing those lightweight atomic nuclei, those isotopes together.
0:13:38 Fission is the exact opposite, where you’re taking the heaviest elements in the universe, uranium, plutonium, things that are so heavy and have so many internal protons and neutrons and electrons that they’re barely held together at all.
0:13:40 They’re fundamentally unstable or radioactive.
0:14:00 And as they do that, if you take a uranium-235 or a plutonium-239 nucleus and you add something new, usually it’s a neutron, a subatomic particle that’s uncharged, that unstable, that very large nuclei will then break into pieces, many pieces, a whole spectrum of pieces.
0:14:08 But if you add up all of those pieces, they also have slightly less mass than the initial one did, the initial uranium or plutonium.
0:14:14 And in that process, again, E equals mc squared, a tremendous amount of energy is released.
0:14:25 There’s a very famous curve in atomic physics, fusion or fission, looking at the periodic table, going from the lightest elements, hydrogen, to the heaviest elements, those uranium, plutonium, and others.
0:14:28 And fusion happens up to iron.
0:14:40 Iron is the magical point in between where lighter elements than iron fuse together and heavier elements fizz or are fissile and break apart and release energy.
0:14:51 I think about and I look at that process in stars and that our star is fundamentally an early-stage star that’s burning just hydrogens.
0:14:59 But when it burns and does fusion, those hydrogens combine into heliums and later-stage stars can then burn those heliums.
0:15:03 And they can fuse those together to form even heavier elements and carbons.
0:15:06 And those carbons can fuse together and form heavier elements.
0:15:19 And that whole stellar process is something that inspires us at Helion to think about what are fusion fuels, not just the simplest ones, but more advanced fusion fuels that we see in stars throughout the universe.
0:15:21 Okay, so there’s a million things I want to say.
0:15:35 So first, maybe zooming out to the biggest possible picture, if we look across hundreds of millions, billions of years, and all the, in my opinion, alien civilizations that are out there, they’re going to be powered likely by fusion.
0:15:42 So our advanced intelligence civilization is powered by fusion in that the sun is our power plant.
0:15:45 Then the other thing is the physics.
0:15:46 Again, very basic.
0:15:49 But you said E equals mc squared a couple of times.
0:15:51 Can you explain this equation?
0:16:03 E equals mc squared is a fundamental relationship that a patent clerk, Einstein, discovered and unlocked an entire new realm of physics and engineering.
0:16:18 And has shown us atomic physics, what happens inside the nucleus, and unlocked our understanding of the universe, and paved the way for many of the physics advancements that came after, that we think about mass as these particles.
0:16:28 But in reality, also, at the same time, their energy, and there’s a direct quantitative relationship between how much energy is in all of that mass.
0:16:36 And in fact, all of the energy that is released, even by atomic physics, certainly in atomic reactions, is equals mc squared.
0:16:39 And that I think most people have heard of and are used to.
0:16:46 But also in chemistry and in chemical bonds, that in those chemical bonds, there is a change in mass.
0:16:52 When you take a hydrogen and an oxygen, and you burn them, and you combine them into water, there’s a change in mass.
0:17:00 Now, that change per atom and per molecule is actually so small that it’s extremely hard to measure, but it’s still there.
0:17:04 And that’s the energy that is released, and you can quantify that.
0:17:13 We use units of electron volts as a unit of what is the energy in atomic processes or chemical processes.
0:17:20 Can you also just speak to the different fuels that you mentioned, both on the fusion and the fission side?
0:17:24 So uranium, plutonium for the fission, and then hydrogen isotopes for the fusion.
0:17:31 So for fission, uranium and plutonium, we don’t make those nuclei.
0:17:43 Those right now, for humanity, those have been made in the primordial universe through supernova and Big Bang and the initial formation of the universe where matter was created.
0:17:44 And so we dig those up.
0:17:47 We dig up uranium, plutonium out of the ground.
0:17:50 And in fact, most plutonium we make from uranium.
0:17:54 And we can talk about how to enrich uranium if we want to go down that road.
0:17:58 But that’s how we get those molecules and nuclei.
0:18:04 For fusion materials, hydrogenetic species or hydrogens are primordial in the universe.
0:18:08 Also, only the most common things that are in the universe.
0:18:12 The suns and stars are made up of hydrogens and heliums.
0:18:17 And so the vast majority of atoms in the universe still are hydrogen.
0:18:23 So the basic fuel for fission is already in the ground, and then the basic fuel for fusion is everywhere.
0:18:24 It’s everywhere.
0:18:32 And we particularly use a type of hydrogen called deuterium, which is a heavier isotope of hydrogen.
0:18:36 Hydrogen is typically one proton and one electron, atomic mass of one.
0:18:40 Deuterium is an atomic mass of two, which is a proton, which is a charged particle.
0:18:44 And it has a neutron in its nucleus, which is an uncharged particle.
0:18:47 And so that’s deuterium as the fuel.
0:18:51 Now, deuterium is also found in all water on Earth, in the water I’m drinking right now.
0:18:52 It’s in my body.
0:18:53 It’s in Coca-Cola.
0:18:55 It’s everywhere.
0:19:03 And safe and clean and one of those fundamental particles that was born in the cosmos.
0:19:10 And we estimate that in seawater here on Earth, we have, if we powered at our current use of electricity,
0:19:20 all of humanity on fusion, somewhere between 100 million years and a billion years of fuel in hydrogen and deuterium here on Earth.
0:19:23 And how is that stored mostly?
0:19:24 And mostly that’s just in water.
0:19:31 Mostly that it’s a mix of, we call this actually heavy water, where you have normal water that you’re used to.
0:19:39 We talk about and you learn in school is H2O, where there’s two hydrogens and oxygen in a nucleus in the molecule.
0:19:44 And deuterium or heavy water is D2O, two deuteriums and an oxygen.
0:19:51 In reality, it’s actually an interesting mix where you have some HDO, so a mix of hydrogen and deuterium.
0:19:53 You also have other hydrogenetic species.
0:20:01 Tritium is another one, where you add a second neutron to that hydrogen, and then you can have T2O, tritiated water.
0:20:06 And that’s something that comes up and we need to talk about at some point.
0:20:11 And there’s other, as you go up the periodic table, you get, add two protons and you get helium.
0:20:17 And so helium, the most common helium, is helium-4, which is two protons and two neutrons.
0:20:19 And then we use an isotope of helium.
0:20:26 The nucleus is called the helium, which is what we base the company after, which is two protons and one neutron.
0:20:27 It’s a light helium molecule.
0:20:32 So the number you mentioned, in terms of how much fuel is available,
0:20:38 basically the takeaway there is it’s a nearly endless resource in terms of fuel.
0:20:39 Is that correct to say?
0:20:41 That’s correct to say at today’s power level.
0:20:49 I think what’s interesting is the idea that as we deploy the same power source that powers the universe here on Earth,
0:20:51 as humans, can we do more?
0:20:57 Can we have access to much more electricity and much more energy and do really interesting things with that?
0:21:01 And still there’s large amounts, millions and millions of years of power,
0:21:05 even at much higher output power levels for humanity.
0:21:15 So the moment we start running out of hydrogen and helium, that means we’re doing some pretty incredible things with our technology.
0:21:20 And then that technology is probably going to allow us to propagate out into the universe and then discover other sources.
0:21:23 Because you can also get it on other planets.
0:21:28 Whatever planets of water, it looks more and more likely like a lot of them do.
0:21:30 What an incredible future.
0:21:34 Just out into the cosmos, nuclear power plants everywhere.
0:21:35 Yeah.
0:21:35 Okay.
0:21:40 So to linger on some of the technical stuff, you said strong nuclear force.
0:21:43 So how exactly is the energy created?
0:21:51 So how does the E equals mc squared, the M go to the E in fusion?
0:21:57 So in fusion, you take these lightweight isotopes like hydrogen and deuterium.
0:22:02 And as you combine them and get and take these molecules and get them closer and closer together,
0:22:05 some really interesting fundamental physics happens.
0:22:09 So first, these atomic nuclei are charged.
0:22:13 They have an electric charge, and they, like charges, repel.
0:22:18 And I think everybody is familiar with that, where you take two positive charges and you try to push them together,
0:22:21 and the electromagnetic force between them repels them.
0:22:24 So you have a force that’s actually pushing against them.
0:22:31 So in fusion, you work to get your fuel very hot, very, very high temperatures, 100 million degree temperatures.
0:22:33 And temperature really is kinetic energy.
0:22:34 It’s motion.
0:22:35 It’s velocity.
0:22:42 So that these particles are moving so fast that even though they’re coming together and there’s this repulsive electromagnetic force,
0:22:47 they can still come close enough that another force comes into play, which is the strong force.
0:22:54 And then once you get within a very close distance, on the order of the scale of those nuclei themselves, of those atomic nuclei,
0:22:58 so the tiniest thing you could imagine, and probably way smaller than that,
0:23:03 these particles then are attracted to each other, and they combine, and they fuse together.
0:23:11 At that point, you create heavier atomic nuclei that have a slightly less mass, slightly less total mass in the system.
0:23:15 And that mass equals mc squared as energy.
0:23:19 So extremely high temperature, extremely high speed.
0:23:27 Maybe that’s one of the other differences also with fusion and fission is just the amount of temperature required for the reactions.
0:23:28 Is that accurate to say?
0:23:34 Yeah, and I think fundamentally, it’s that in a lot of ways, fusion is hard, and fission is easy.
0:23:37 Nuclear fission happens at room temperature.
0:23:42 That this uranium and plutonium is so likely to break apart already,
0:23:49 that simply the adding of one of these neutrons, one extra particle, will then break it apart and release energy.
0:23:54 And if you have a lot of them together, it will create a chain reaction.
0:23:56 Fusion, that doesn’t happen at all.
0:23:58 Fusion is actually really hard to do.
0:24:03 You have to overcome those electromagnetic forces to have a single fusion reaction happen.
0:24:07 And so it takes things like, in our sun, we have what is called gravitational confinement,
0:24:15 where the gravity, literally the mass of the fuel itself, is pulling to the center of the sun.
0:24:16 And it’s pulling in there.
0:24:22 So there’s a large force that’s pulling all that fuel together and holding it and confining it together,
0:24:27 such that it gets close enough and hot enough for long enough that fusion happens.
0:24:31 And then we have to figure out, if we’re building fusion reactors,
0:24:39 we have to figure out how to do that confinement without the huge size gravity of the sun.
0:24:39 That’s right.
0:24:46 Obviously, the sun is vastly larger than Earth, and so we can’t do that same process here on Earth.
0:24:46 Yet.
0:24:47 No, I’m just kidding.
0:24:50 But we have other forces we get to use.
0:24:54 We can use the electromagnetic force, which the sun doesn’t get to do, to apply those forces.
0:24:58 And I actually want to take a pause right there and point out a word.
0:25:04 Historically, we’ve used the word reactor around fusion, but I don’t think that’s right.
0:25:08 And for me, we’re really careful about this terminology.
0:25:15 When we look to how that word is defined and we can look to how the experts define it, it doesn’t really apply to fusion.
0:25:22 So the Nuclear Regulatory Commission, the NRC, defines reactor as, I have it right here.
0:25:32 A nuclear reactor is an apparatus, other than an atomic weapon, designed or used to sustain nuclear fission in a self-supporting chain reaction.
0:25:34 And there’s two big parts to that.
0:25:37 That one, fission reaction.
0:25:39 Obviously, fusion is not that.
0:25:40 We’ve talked about why.
0:25:42 But also the self-sustaining part.
0:25:45 And that a reactor is self-sustaining.
0:25:47 You take your hands off of it and it keeps going.
0:25:49 In fusion, that doesn’t happen.
0:25:53 And we know because we have to do it every day and it’s really hard to do.
0:25:59 And so we actually use the word generator because we don’t talk about, for instance, a natural gas reactor.
0:26:02 Is that if you stop putting in fuel, it turns off.
0:26:04 And the same thing happens in fusion.
0:26:12 And so we’re pretty careful about making sure we talk about that as a generator where you’re putting in fuel, you’re getting electricity out.
0:26:16 And then when you stop putting in fuel, it just shuts off.
0:26:20 And you can go even one step further and say, what am I going to do with this fusion?
0:26:21 That powers the universe.
0:26:23 And what does humanity want out of this?
0:26:24 And what we want is electricity.
0:26:30 We don’t simply want a set of reactions or even heat and energy.
0:26:30 That’s great.
0:26:32 But what I really want is electricity.
0:26:42 And yeah, we’ll talk about the technical details of one of the big benefits of the linear design of the approach that you do is you get to electricity directly as quickly as possible.
0:26:47 And some of the other alternatives have an intermediate step.
0:26:49 And those, again, are technical details.
0:26:53 But let me sort of still linger on the difference between fusion and fission.
0:26:58 What are some advantages at a high level of nuclear fusion as a source of energy?
0:27:11 Fundamentally, as a source of energy, in fusion, you’re taking these lightweight isotopes, you’re bringing them together, you’re releasing energy, and that energy is in the form of charged particles.
0:27:13 It’s already in the form of electricity.
0:27:20 Fusion itself has electricity built into it without a lot of the steam or thermal system requirements.
0:27:24 And so that’s a really nice fundamental benefit of fusion itself.
0:27:29 Also, this reaction that’s really hard to do turns itself off.
0:27:32 So you end up with that fusion is fundamentally safe.
0:27:38 And that’s really a key requirement of any industrial system is that it turns itself off and it’s safe.
0:27:41 You turn the key off on your car, you know it’s going to turn off.
0:27:46 I guess the flip side of that, just sort of stating the obvious, but it’s nice to lay it out.
0:27:52 For nuclear fission, it’s a chain reaction, so it’s hard to shut off.
0:27:59 And it works by boiling water into steam, which spins turbines and produces electricity.
0:28:03 Can you talk through this process in a nuclear fission reactor?
0:28:10 In a nuclear fission reactor, you put enough of this fissile material, uranium or plutonium, together,
0:28:17 such that as these unstable molecules, these unstable atoms crack open and break apart,
0:28:22 they release heat, that the component parts of those are actually quite hot.
0:28:26 And so not only are the component parts that the uranium breaks into,
0:28:30 and it’s a whole spectrum of different atoms and atomic nuclei are hot,
0:28:32 but it also releases neutrons.
0:28:35 It also releases more of these uncharged particles.
0:28:41 And if you do it right, this fissile material will be next to other fissile material.
0:28:49 And so that neutron will then go and bombard another uranium nucleus, again, opening that up
0:28:52 and releasing more heat and more of these neutrons.
0:28:56 And that’s how you have those reactions of a self-supporting chain reaction.
0:28:58 And that chain reaction then continues.
0:29:05 People design fission reactors such that you have just the right balance of enough neutrons are made
0:29:09 such that the reaction is continuing, but not so many neutrons are made that it speeds up
0:29:10 because you don’t want it to speed up.
0:29:17 And there’s some kind of cooling mechanisms also, like that’s part of the art and the engineering of it.
0:29:23 And then the key is, at the same time, you want to make sure that the whole thing is in water,
0:29:24 is typically the cooling fluid.
0:29:28 There’s some more advanced fission reactors that have different cooling fluids,
0:29:33 but water typically, where then that absorbs that both the heat and those extra neutrons.
0:29:40 And so you use the water and the fluid to then run a steam turbine to do traditional electricity generation
0:29:44 and output electricity through your steam turbine.
0:29:49 You end up with complicated systems of flowing liquids and flowing water, balancing the heat.
0:29:56 A lot of fission reactor design comes from that thermal balance of keeping this reaction going,
0:30:03 making sure it doesn’t speed up, because that’s an uncontrolled chain reaction, which you would not want,
0:30:08 and balancing the cooling and the output of getting the water out of it.
0:30:13 So we should say that for reasons you already laid out, maybe you can speak to a bit more,
0:30:19 is nuclear fusion is much safer, so there’s no chain reaction going on, you can just shut it off.
0:30:28 But it should also be said, as far as I understand, the current fission nuclear reactors are also very safe.
0:30:33 I think there’s a perception that nuclear fission reactors are unsafe, they’re dangerous.
0:30:41 And if you just look empirically at the statistics, that the fear is not justified by the actual safety data.
0:30:42 Can you just speak to that a little bit?
0:30:47 Yeah, we’ve been talking about the reaction processes themselves, but I think fundamentally,
0:30:51 let’s take a step back and look a little broader and say, let’s look at what we care about,
0:30:53 which is the power plant making electricity.
0:30:56 And I look at this from a nuclear engineer’s point of view.
0:30:58 I spent a lot of years studying these systems.
0:31:04 And modern fission reactors, I believe, are engineered to be safe.
0:31:12 They’re engineered in ways where as those reactions maybe speed up and those systems get hotter,
0:31:17 they actually are built to expand and cool down passively and natively.
0:31:23 And there’s protection systems in place that modern systems are quite safe from an engineering perspective.
0:31:31 And so I believe that we have figured out how to build nuclear fission reactors in a way where the engineering of the power plant is safe.
0:31:39 I would say that I look back at the history of what we’ve built over time, and the challenge hasn’t come to the engineering, actually.
0:31:41 I believe the engineers have solved these problems.
0:31:44 The problem comes from humans.
0:31:49 And the problem comes from other things around nuclear power.
0:31:51 You have to enrich that uranium to put it in a plant.
0:31:52 And the plant’s safe.
0:31:56 But you had to enrich that uranium, and that is some of the problem.
0:32:00 Or a plant is designed to run for a certain number of decades safely.
0:32:02 But do we run it longer than that?
0:32:05 And so those are where I think the real challenges happen,
0:32:10 is more with the humans around these systems than the engineering of the power plants themselves.
0:32:13 Well, I have to ask then, what do you think happened in Chernobyl?
0:32:16 What lessons do we learn from Chernobyl nuclear disaster,
0:32:19 and maybe also Three Mile Island and Fukushima accidents?
0:32:23 I think you’re suggesting that it has to do with the humans a bit.
0:32:28 So with Chernobyl and Fukushima, I actually put Three Mile Island in a different category.
0:32:33 In fact, some of the recent news in the last year is that we’re going to be restarting Three Mile Island
0:32:38 because there’s such a need for clean baseload power.
0:32:45 So that’s actually a very interesting other topic we should talk about is why and how we’re doing that.
0:32:49 But more than that, going back to the accidents that did happen,
0:32:56 in both of those systems, you can point to the human failure rather than the engineering failures of those systems.
0:33:02 That in Fukushima specifically, there were multiple nuclear fission reactors on the same site
0:33:06 that successfully kept running through the tsunami, totally successfully,
0:33:09 and were only later shut down for more political reasons.
0:33:14 But the old one, the oldest of them that had been on site for long periods,
0:33:19 and maybe too long, I think some experts have looked at this in the past,
0:33:22 was where some of the problems actually happened.
0:33:31 And so I look to that less as a failure of the engineering of the power plants
0:33:35 and more of the humans and around those systems,
0:33:40 that we should be operating these plants as designed, and then I believe they’re safe.
0:33:43 And that gets to some of the atomic weapons questions
0:33:49 that I think are the other part around nuclear reactors and fission reactors
0:33:50 that are concerning for me.
0:33:52 Can you speak to those?
0:33:56 So maybe this is a good place to also lay out the difference between
0:34:03 nuclear fission power plants and nuclear fission weapons,
0:34:11 and maybe also nuclear fusion power plants and nuclear fusion weapons.
0:34:13 Like, what are the differences here?
0:34:18 Fission power plants can’t be used to make nuclear weapons.
0:34:23 Like, fundamentally, that the processes in fusion
0:34:27 aren’t the same processes that happen in nuclear bombs and nuclear weapons.
0:34:30 And so it’s actually one reason I started in fusion,
0:34:34 and most of our team thinks about the mission of fusion,
0:34:37 of delivering clean, safe electricity,
0:34:40 is that it also can’t be used to make weapons.
0:34:43 And I think that’s a little bit of a distinction from,
0:34:45 traditional nuclear fission reactors,
0:34:49 is that while I totally believe, as a nuclear engineer,
0:34:52 we build power plants now that are safe,
0:34:54 that aren’t going to have reactions.
0:34:57 They use a fuel, uranium and plutonium,
0:35:01 that can be used to make nuclear weapons.
0:35:05 That we know that if you take enough fissile material together,
0:35:06 enough uranium and plutonium,
0:35:07 put it in a small volume,
0:35:11 that it will not just create a reaction,
0:35:13 but it will create a supercritical reaction
0:35:15 that will then continue and grow
0:35:17 and release a tremendous amount of energy all at once.
0:35:19 And that is a bomb.
0:35:20 That is a bad situation,
0:35:21 and that is what we want to avoid.
0:35:24 A lot of the key is recognizing that
0:35:26 even though there are things called fusion bombs,
0:35:28 the H-bomb, the hydrogen bomb,
0:35:31 the hydrogen bomb has uranium in it.
0:35:32 It’s still a fission bomb.
0:35:34 And so how this fundamentally works
0:35:38 is that you have a fission reaction, a primary,
0:35:41 and that creates radiation
0:35:44 that induces a fusion reaction
0:35:46 with a small amount of fusion fuel
0:35:50 that then boosts that uranium reaction again.
0:35:52 And so most of the energy,
0:35:55 in fact, 90% of the energy in an H-bomb
0:35:57 is all still from the uranium reactions themselves.
0:36:01 Yeah, I think people call it sort of the nuclear fusion bomb,
0:36:02 hydrogen bomb,
0:36:05 but really it’s still a nuclear fission bomb.
0:36:07 It’s just that fusion is a part of the process
0:36:08 to make it more powerful,
0:36:11 but you still need, like you said, the uranium fuel.
0:36:13 So it’s not accurate to sort of think of it
0:36:14 as a fusion bomb, really.
0:36:17 And if you take away that fissile material,
0:36:19 that nuclear fission reaction,
0:36:22 the fusion reaction doesn’t happen at all.
0:36:24 In fact, there’s been researchers
0:36:27 that have over the decades
0:36:29 tried to make an all-fusion bomb
0:36:31 and been very unsuccessful at it.
0:36:33 The physics and the engineering don’t support it
0:36:36 can ever happen with our understanding today.
0:36:37 The topic we’re talking about
0:36:39 is more broadly called proliferation.
0:36:43 And this is the creation of nuclear weapons
0:36:44 in the world
0:36:46 and the distribution of those weapons.
0:36:49 And something we know as physicists and engineers
0:36:51 is that fusion can’t be used
0:36:53 to make nuclear weapons.
0:36:54 We know that.
0:36:58 But that is not sort of widely known.
0:37:01 And part of what we went out to do
0:37:04 is work with the proliferation experts in the world,
0:37:06 the people who work to prevent nuclear weapons
0:37:08 from being made, being created,
0:37:10 being shared throughout the world,
0:37:11 because we know the challenges,
0:37:13 the geopolitical challenges that happen.
0:37:15 And we went to those proliferation experts
0:37:16 and we were worried
0:37:20 they would have the sort of
0:37:21 the same historical question of like,
0:37:23 well, it’s the word nuclear is in fusion,
0:37:25 so therefore it must be related.
0:37:29 And in fact, the total opposite happened.
0:37:30 What they told us is,
0:37:33 please, please go develop fusion power plants
0:37:35 absolutely as fast as possible.
0:37:37 The world needs this.
0:37:40 And the proliferation experts were telling us
0:37:43 that otherwise people would start
0:37:44 enriching uranium throughout the world
0:37:47 and we’d be building enriched uranium power plants
0:37:48 because we need the electricity
0:37:50 that’s clean and baseload.
0:37:52 But in those processes,
0:37:54 they’ll be making fuel
0:37:55 that could be one day used
0:37:56 for atomic weapons,
0:37:57 for nuclear weapons.
0:37:58 And they were worried
0:38:02 that the growth of this enriched uranium,
0:38:03 think about the centrifuges,
0:38:05 that having a lot more centrifuges
0:38:06 happening all over the world
0:38:08 would lead to more weapons,
0:38:10 at least the possibility of it.
0:38:11 And so they are pushing us
0:38:13 as fast as possible.
0:38:14 Go build fusion generators
0:38:15 and get them deployed everywhere.
0:38:17 Not that it’s just in the United States,
0:38:18 but all over the world
0:38:21 so that we’re building fusion power
0:38:23 and that’s meeting humanity’s needs,
0:38:25 not this other thing.
0:38:27 And so I was really pleasantly surprised.
0:38:29 We’ve written a number of papers
0:38:30 and worked with those communities
0:38:33 on this of what does it mean?
0:38:35 How is fusion power safe
0:38:36 and can’t be used
0:38:37 for nuclear weapons?
0:38:39 So this might be interesting
0:38:42 to ask on the geopolitics side of things.
0:38:44 I have the chance to interview
0:38:45 a few world leaders coming up.
0:38:47 By way of advice,
0:38:49 what questions should I ask world leaders
0:38:53 to figure out the geopolitics of nuclear,
0:38:55 nuclear proliferation,
0:38:57 nuclear weapons,
0:39:00 nuclear fusion power plants,
0:39:02 and nuclear fusion power plants?
0:39:05 What’s the interesting intricate complexity there
0:39:07 that you could maybe speak to?
0:39:10 The question I would want to ask is
0:39:12 what would you do
0:39:15 if we could deliver for you
0:39:19 low-cost, clean, industrial scale,
0:39:21 tens or hundreds of megawatts
0:39:23 of fusion power
0:39:27 that’s low-cost, clean, baseload,
0:39:28 and doesn’t have
0:39:30 the geopolitical consequences
0:39:31 of uranium and plutonium?
0:39:33 of fissile material.
0:39:35 What would you do there?
0:39:37 How would that change your view
0:39:38 of the next 30 years?
0:39:40 But also, there’s a lot of geopolitics
0:39:42 connected to oil, natural gas,
0:39:43 and other sources of energy,
0:39:45 which I think are important
0:39:46 in Saudi Arabia,
0:39:47 in the Middle East,
0:39:48 in Russia,
0:39:51 I mean, all across the world.
0:39:52 And that’s interesting, too.
0:39:53 So do you think, actually,
0:39:57 if everybody has nuclear fusion power plants
0:40:01 that alleviates some of the geopolitical tension
0:40:02 that have to do with energy,
0:40:03 other energy sources?
0:40:04 I certainly do.
0:40:07 That the fuel is in seawater all over Earth.
0:40:08 Everybody has deuterium.
0:40:10 And everybody has it.
0:40:13 And so you can’t have a monopoly on the fuel.
0:40:15 And no one can control the fuel
0:40:17 and no one can turn off the fuel.
0:40:18 No one can cut a pipeline.
0:40:20 Like, that just cannot happen with fusion.
0:40:23 And so if we can deploy those plants
0:40:24 and we can deploy them quickly,
0:40:28 then it decouples the ability
0:40:30 of any one or any few countries
0:40:31 to control energy.
0:40:35 Okay, so let’s sort of return
0:40:36 to the basic question.
0:40:37 I already mentioned it a little bit,
0:40:40 but is nuclear fusion safe?
0:40:43 So the power plants that we’re talking about,
0:40:44 fusion power plants,
0:40:46 are they safe?
0:40:47 Yes.
0:40:50 Fusion power is fundamentally safe.
0:40:52 The physics and the reactions
0:40:55 of the fusion system itself
0:40:57 means you don’t have runaways.
0:40:58 And so we’ve talked about
0:40:59 some of the human factors
0:41:00 around power plants
0:41:02 and power systems
0:41:03 and industrial-scale systems.
0:41:05 And that’s something that we build
0:41:09 into the design of these from today.
0:41:14 We look at how these systems might fail.
0:41:15 And in fact,
0:41:17 some of the analysis we do
0:41:19 is we did this analysis
0:41:22 for the Nuclear Regulatory Commission
0:41:23 over the last few years,
0:41:26 looking at how do you regulate fusion power?
0:41:26 As we’re building
0:41:28 the first fusion power plant,
0:41:29 we need to make sure
0:41:30 we’re regulated safely.
0:41:32 And so we spent a lot of time
0:41:33 doing the technical case
0:41:35 and the political case
0:41:36 in the United States
0:41:37 of how to regulate fusion.
0:41:41 And so the analysis we did is
0:41:43 assume you have a fusion power plant
0:41:43 that’s operating.
0:41:45 And then at any one time,
0:41:47 a meteor strikes it.
0:41:48 The whole thing is vaporized.
0:41:50 What is the impact of that?
0:41:51 So this is worse
0:41:52 than you could ever imagine
0:41:54 an actual physical scenario,
0:41:56 but let’s start there.
0:41:57 And the answer is
0:41:59 you don’t need to evacuate
0:42:00 the populace
0:42:01 nearby the fusion power plant.
0:42:04 And one of the keys,
0:42:05 I think,
0:42:06 that I come to
0:42:07 when I think about this
0:42:09 is the fuel.
0:42:12 In that in a fusion generator,
0:42:14 you are continuously
0:42:16 feeding in this hydrogen,
0:42:18 these deuterium fuels.
0:42:19 And at any one time
0:42:21 in a helium fusion system
0:42:23 and most fusion systems,
0:42:25 you have one second
0:42:27 of fuel in that system.
0:42:28 And so what that means
0:42:29 is if you stop turning on,
0:42:30 if you stop putting fuel
0:42:31 into that system,
0:42:32 fusion just stops.
0:42:33 But what it also means
0:42:35 is that if something
0:42:36 really catastrophic happened
0:42:38 and for whatever reason,
0:42:40 you have all that fuel
0:42:41 that’s not in the system.
0:42:42 And fusion is so hard
0:42:43 to make happen.
0:42:44 You hit it with a meteor,
0:42:46 you do anything
0:42:47 in that nature
0:42:49 and fusion doesn’t happen.
0:42:49 That hydrogen,
0:42:51 that heavy water,
0:42:51 that deuterium
0:42:53 just goes back
0:42:53 into the environment
0:42:54 safely and cleanly
0:42:55 without issue.
0:42:57 And so that’s the fundamental
0:43:00 safety mechanism of fusion.
0:43:01 And you can compare that
0:43:01 with other types
0:43:02 of power plants,
0:43:05 oil or a coal power plant.
0:43:05 You might have
0:43:06 a large pile of coal
0:43:07 that then catches fire
0:43:08 and burns.
0:43:09 And it’s not catastrophic,
0:43:11 but you have a large coal fire
0:43:11 for a long time
0:43:13 releasing toxic fumes
0:43:14 that you may have to deal with.
0:43:16 And in nuclear power
0:43:17 and a fission power plant,
0:43:18 you may have several years
0:43:20 of fuel sitting in the core.
0:43:21 And in that case,
0:43:22 if something bad happened,
0:43:24 you have all that potential energy
0:43:26 for things to happen.
0:43:27 But in fusion,
0:43:28 you have literally
0:43:30 one second of fuel
0:43:31 at any time in the system.
0:43:32 And having a tank of deuterium,
0:43:33 which we have around
0:43:34 all the time,
0:43:36 can’t do fusion by itself.
0:43:38 It needs that complex system.
0:43:39 I love that there’s
0:43:40 like a PowerPoint going on
0:43:42 in a secret meeting
0:43:43 about like what happens
0:43:44 if a meteor hits
0:43:46 a fusion power plant.
0:43:47 OK, so that’s really interesting.
0:43:49 What about the waste?
0:43:50 What kind of waste
0:43:52 is there for fusion power plants?
0:43:53 So the fusion reaction itself
0:43:55 is still fundamentally
0:43:56 an atomic reaction.
0:43:58 And so during this reaction,
0:44:00 you do create ionizing radiation.
0:44:01 You create X-rays,
0:44:02 you create neutrons,
0:44:02 and you create
0:44:03 all these charged particles.
0:44:06 The charged particles themselves
0:44:07 for a fusion reaction
0:44:07 are all contained
0:44:09 in the fusion system.
0:44:12 And the X-ray is similar
0:44:14 to think about a dentist’s office,
0:44:16 although a lot more than that.
0:44:18 But that type of same X-ray
0:44:19 and X-ray energy
0:44:21 is absorbed by the fusion system.
0:44:22 But the thing we do care about
0:44:23 is those neutrons.
0:44:24 And so we do have
0:44:26 in a fusion system activation.
0:44:28 During its operation,
0:44:30 neutrons are made and leave.
0:44:31 And so we have to shield
0:44:32 these fusion systems
0:44:33 during their operation.
0:44:35 And so this is very similar.
0:44:36 And in fact,
0:44:38 this is a lot of the work we did
0:44:39 with the Nuclear Regulatory Commission
0:44:41 over the last number of years,
0:44:43 that there was a landmark agreement
0:44:45 that happened for the NRC
0:44:48 that then was codified into law last year
0:44:49 called the Advance Act,
0:44:51 which is really powerful
0:44:51 because it says
0:44:52 for the very first time
0:44:54 how the U.S. government,
0:44:55 leading the way on this,
0:44:57 which I’m really proud of,
0:44:58 will regulate fusion.
0:45:00 And this gets into
0:45:01 a little bit of the details,
0:45:02 but the way
0:45:03 the Nuclear Regulatory Commission
0:45:06 regulates nuclear things
0:45:07 in the United States
0:45:08 is in these different
0:45:09 sets of statutes.
0:45:11 And nuclear reactors
0:45:13 are regulated under something
0:45:14 what’s called Part 50.
0:45:15 And there’s a lot of variety
0:45:17 of the regulatory language
0:45:18 around that,
0:45:19 but most of it is to handle
0:45:21 special nuclear materials,
0:45:22 uranium and plutonium.
0:45:24 But fusion is not.
0:45:25 Fusion is regulated
0:45:26 under something called Part 30.
0:45:28 And Part 30 is how
0:45:29 hospitals are regulated,
0:45:31 particle accelerators,
0:45:33 other types of irradiators,
0:45:34 where as they’re operating,
0:45:35 you have very high energy
0:45:37 particles ionizing radiation
0:45:38 and you have to
0:45:39 protect operators from it
0:45:40 and you have to shield them.
0:45:42 And so we build
0:45:43 concrete shields.
0:45:43 And if you came
0:45:44 and visited Helion,
0:45:45 you would see
0:45:47 plastic borated polyethylene
0:45:49 and concrete shielding
0:45:51 to protect operators
0:45:51 and equipment
0:45:52 from the fusion reactions
0:45:53 while they’re happening.
0:45:54 But again,
0:45:55 you turn them off
0:45:57 and those fusion reactions stop.
0:45:58 And that’s really the key.
0:46:02 there’s a funny story
0:46:03 related to that.
0:46:07 We’ve been building fusion systems
0:46:08 that do fusion a long time.
0:46:11 And at some level,
0:46:12 they got powerful enough
0:46:13 doing enough fusion.
0:46:14 We started building these shields
0:46:16 and shielding them
0:46:17 like a particle accelerator.
0:46:19 And I went to
0:46:22 the regulatory bodies
0:46:23 that regulate Part 30.
0:46:25 This is in Washington state.
0:46:26 It’s the Department of Health.
0:46:27 And so I went to
0:46:28 the Department of Health
0:46:28 and said,
0:46:29 here’s an application
0:46:30 for a fusion generator
0:46:32 shielding permit
0:46:34 as a particle accelerator.
0:46:37 And the very first question
0:46:38 I got asked was,
0:46:40 great, where do the patients go?
0:46:41 Because the standard form
0:46:44 had a patient as a hospital,
0:46:45 the patient dose
0:46:46 for the particle accelerator,
0:46:47 and then the shielding.
0:46:48 And we talked all about
0:46:49 the shielding in the operators,
0:46:50 which is very similar
0:46:51 for a Helion system.
0:46:52 And we said,
0:46:53 no, no, no patients at all.
0:46:55 No one’s inside this thing.
0:46:56 Our goal is to generate
0:46:57 electricity one day.
0:46:58 This was a lot of years ago.
0:47:01 And we were able to go through
0:47:03 and work with the state agencies
0:47:03 to license
0:47:05 these fusion particle accelerators.
0:47:06 We were, as far as we know,
0:47:08 the first licensed
0:47:11 fusion system ever
0:47:13 as a particle accelerator
0:47:14 for those first systems.
0:47:16 First license we had
0:47:17 was in 2020.
0:47:18 We then have gone on
0:47:19 and now licensed
0:47:21 several of our fusion systems
0:47:21 that we’ve built
0:47:22 that do fusion,
0:47:24 both the shielding
0:47:24 as well as
0:47:27 some of the fuel processes.
0:47:29 So high level,
0:47:31 what are the different ways
0:47:32 to build
0:47:33 a nuclear fusion
0:47:34 power plant?
0:47:36 So can you explain
0:47:38 what a Takamak is,
0:47:40 what a Stellarator is,
0:47:43 and what’s the linear approach
0:47:45 that Helion is using?
0:47:48 So there are a number of ways
0:47:49 to do fusion.
0:47:51 And fundamentally,
0:47:52 in all fusion approaches,
0:47:53 you’re trying to do
0:47:55 the same fundamental
0:47:56 physical process,
0:47:57 which is take
0:47:58 these lightweight isotopes,
0:47:59 heat them up
0:48:00 so that they can
0:48:02 move at high velocity,
0:48:03 over 100 million degrees,
0:48:05 bring enough of them together,
0:48:07 we call it density,
0:48:08 enough of them together
0:48:09 in a certain volume
0:48:10 so that you have
0:48:11 reactions happening
0:48:13 at a higher rate,
0:48:14 and keep them together
0:48:15 long enough
0:48:16 that they are able
0:48:17 to collide into each other
0:48:18 and do fusion
0:48:20 and release energy.
0:48:22 That’s the fundamental core.
0:48:23 Now, how you do that,
0:48:23 how you bring
0:48:24 those particles together,
0:48:26 how you hold them
0:48:26 together long enough,
0:48:28 there’s a wide range
0:48:28 of technologies
0:48:30 that, as humans,
0:48:30 we’ve been exploring
0:48:33 since the 1950s.
0:48:35 And I think about
0:48:36 several main categories.
0:48:37 If you look at
0:48:38 the fusion funding
0:48:39 out there,
0:48:40 government funding
0:48:40 in the world,
0:48:41 private funding actually
0:48:43 has quite a different profile,
0:48:45 which is an interesting
0:48:46 thing to talk about.
0:48:48 But in public funding,
0:48:48 in federal funding
0:48:49 in the United States,
0:48:50 there’s two mainline programs
0:48:52 called inertial fusion
0:48:54 and magnetic fusion.
0:48:57 And in inertial fusion,
0:48:58 what you’re trying to do
0:48:59 is bring together
0:49:00 and push together
0:49:02 by a variety of means,
0:49:03 physical means,
0:49:04 those particles,
0:49:05 you push them together.
0:49:06 The most common
0:49:08 is called laser inertial fusion.
0:49:09 Our colleagues
0:49:11 at the National Ignition Facility
0:49:12 did this really well
0:49:13 and made world records
0:49:15 in the last few years
0:49:16 for being able to demonstrate
0:49:17 you can do this
0:49:18 and do it at scale,
0:49:19 where you take
0:49:21 very high power lasers
0:49:22 and pulse them together
0:49:24 to combine them
0:49:24 to do fusion
0:49:25 for a pulse
0:49:26 for a very short
0:49:27 period of time,
0:49:28 nanoseconds,
0:49:29 billionths of a second.
0:49:31 The other extreme,
0:49:33 and you mentioned
0:49:34 tokamaks and stellarators.
0:49:36 Stellarators are actually
0:49:36 my favorite.
0:49:38 So we’ll talk about those.
0:49:40 Graduate student in fusion,
0:49:40 the stellarator
0:49:41 is the first thing
0:49:41 you learn about
0:49:43 because there’s
0:49:44 a mathematical solution
0:49:45 for a stellarator
0:49:46 that solves perfectly.
0:49:49 And you can write it out
0:49:50 and you can solve it
0:49:51 and analytically,
0:49:53 it’s very simple.
0:49:54 Building one is very hard.
0:49:57 And so it’s taken humanity
0:49:59 a number of decades
0:50:00 to be able to build
0:50:00 stellarators
0:50:01 and we can do it now
0:50:04 with the Wendelstein 7X
0:50:05 that came online
0:50:06 in the last few years
0:50:08 being the premier
0:50:09 stellarator in the world.
0:50:12 I should say all the different
0:50:13 ways to do fusion
0:50:15 all just look so badass
0:50:16 in terms of engineering,
0:50:19 creating this containment,
0:50:21 extremely high temperature,
0:50:23 high density,
0:50:25 everything’s moving super fast,
0:50:27 everything is happening
0:50:27 super fast.
0:50:29 It’s just fascinating
0:50:30 that humans are able to do it.
0:50:31 Like there’s certain things,
0:50:32 accelerators of that
0:50:33 a little bit,
0:50:34 but this is even cooler
0:50:36 because you’re generating energy
0:50:37 that can power humanity
0:50:39 with this machine.
0:50:40 Anyway,
0:50:41 can you just speak
0:50:41 a little bit more
0:50:42 to the inertia
0:50:44 and the magnetic fusion systems?
0:50:45 In a magnetic system,
0:50:47 your goal is not to
0:50:50 push together those particles
0:50:52 as fast as possible.
0:50:54 Your goal is to hold on to them
0:50:55 for as long as possible.
0:50:56 And to do that,
0:50:58 we use magnetic fields.
0:50:59 So let’s take a step back.
0:51:00 What is a magnetic field?
0:51:03 So in an electromagnet,
0:51:05 there’s a variety of ways
0:51:06 to make a magnetic field.
0:51:07 One of the most famous
0:51:08 I think everyone is familiar with
0:51:09 is Earth itself.
0:51:11 Earth has what we call
0:51:12 the magnetosphere,
0:51:15 which is the magnetic protection
0:51:16 that’s generated actually
0:51:18 by the core of the Earth.
0:51:20 But we have a magnetic field
0:51:21 around the Earth
0:51:23 and that magnetic field
0:51:25 protects us from particles
0:51:27 coming from the galaxy,
0:51:29 galactic cosmic rays
0:51:30 and solar particles
0:51:32 that would come to Earth.
0:51:33 That magnetic field,
0:51:33 when you run a compass,
0:51:35 you see the magnetic field
0:51:35 from the Earth.
0:51:36 So we know it’s happening.
0:51:37 It’s all over.
0:51:39 But how we generate it
0:51:40 with electric currents
0:51:41 is a little bit different.
0:51:43 And what we do
0:51:44 is that we have a loop of wire.
0:51:46 And the simplest way
0:51:46 to think about it
0:51:48 is literally a round loop.
0:51:49 And in that loop,
0:51:50 you have electrons.
0:51:52 You have an electrical current
0:51:52 that’s running.
0:51:54 And when electrical current,
0:51:55 this is some of Maxwell’s equations
0:51:56 that we discovered
0:51:57 in the 1800s,
0:51:58 that when you have
0:51:59 an electrical current
0:52:00 and a wire,
0:52:02 it generates a magnetic field
0:52:04 inside that wire.
0:52:05 And so when you look
0:52:07 at fusion systems,
0:52:08 you always have
0:52:10 these big magnetic coils
0:52:11 with large amounts of current.
0:52:12 We don’t run
0:52:12 a little bit of current.
0:52:13 In our systems,
0:52:14 we have hundreds
0:52:16 of mega amps of current.
0:52:16 If you think about
0:52:18 at your house,
0:52:21 you have your breaker box
0:52:22 with 200 amps
0:52:24 or maybe a 400 amp breaker box.
0:52:27 And we run 100 million amps
0:52:27 of electrical current.
0:52:28 So massive amounts
0:52:29 of electrical current
0:52:30 to be able to do this.
0:52:32 So that magnetic field
0:52:33 that’s generated
0:52:36 inside that magnetic coil
0:52:38 has some really special properties.
0:52:39 And we take advantage
0:52:40 of those properties
0:52:40 to do fusion.
0:52:42 And some of those properties
0:52:44 are not intuitive.
0:52:46 So here’s one of my favorites.
0:52:47 When you have
0:52:48 an electromagnetic field,
0:52:49 you have this coil
0:52:50 with electricity
0:52:51 going around it
0:52:52 and you have
0:52:53 a magnetic field
0:52:54 inside of it.
0:52:55 And then you have
0:52:56 a test particle,
0:52:57 a charged particle,
0:52:59 an electron or an ion,
0:53:01 which is,
0:53:01 if you imagine,
0:53:02 to generate this,
0:53:03 I have a coil
0:53:04 with electrons
0:53:05 moving around it.
0:53:05 But if I put one
0:53:06 in the middle of it,
0:53:07 in this magnetic field,
0:53:09 some really interesting
0:53:09 things happen.
0:53:11 That electron
0:53:12 or that ion,
0:53:13 that charged particle
0:53:14 is what’s called magnetized.
0:53:16 And what magnetized means
0:53:17 is that it’s trapped
0:53:19 on that field line.
0:53:19 And in fact,
0:53:20 even really more interesting
0:53:23 is that it oscillates
0:53:24 around that field line.
0:53:25 And so the way
0:53:26 I think about this
0:53:26 is if you think about
0:53:27 the Earth’s
0:53:28 magnetosphere again
0:53:29 and you think about
0:53:30 the charged particles,
0:53:32 the northern lights,
0:53:33 is a charged particle
0:53:35 trapped in the Earth’s
0:53:36 magnetic field
0:53:37 going around
0:53:39 the Earth’s magnetic field.
0:53:40 And in the same way
0:53:40 in fusion,
0:53:41 we do the same thing
0:53:42 here on Earth,
0:53:43 but in a smaller direction
0:53:44 where we trap
0:53:45 these particles
0:53:46 on magnetic fields
0:53:47 and they can go around
0:53:49 and stay trapped
0:53:50 to that magnetic field line.
0:53:51 How much of the physics
0:53:54 at this scale
0:53:54 is understood here?
0:53:56 Like how these systems
0:53:56 behave
0:53:58 when you
0:54:00 attract a magnetic field
0:54:00 in this way?
0:54:01 Like,
0:54:03 is this fundamentally
0:54:05 now an engineering problem
0:54:06 or is there a new physics
0:54:07 to be discovered
0:54:08 about how the system
0:54:09 is behaving?
0:54:10 In fusion,
0:54:12 the physics we’re using
0:54:13 is actually quite old.
0:54:15 That the fundamental
0:54:16 electromagnetic physics
0:54:17 is 1800s physics.
0:54:18 The fundamental
0:54:19 atomic physics
0:54:20 is early 1900s.
0:54:21 And so,
0:54:22 the fundamental physics
0:54:24 of how these work
0:54:25 is very well understood.
0:54:27 Putting them all together
0:54:28 into a power plant,
0:54:29 that’s hard.
0:54:30 And so,
0:54:31 you can do the math.
0:54:31 You can do the math.
0:54:33 Every introductory grad student
0:54:34 does the math
0:54:35 on a stellarator
0:54:35 and say,
0:54:36 this is all I need to do.
0:54:38 I just need to make
0:54:39 a magnetic coil
0:54:41 in this very complicated shape.
0:54:42 And then,
0:54:43 fusion will happen.
0:54:44 However,
0:54:45 doing that in practice
0:54:47 is actually quite challenging.
0:54:48 So,
0:54:49 maybe you could speak
0:54:50 a little bit more.
0:54:50 So,
0:54:51 the stellarator
0:54:52 and the tokamak,
0:54:53 what’s the difference
0:54:54 between those two?
0:54:55 They’re both magnetic
0:54:56 fusion systems?
0:54:56 And then,
0:54:58 what does Helion do?
0:54:59 The tokamak
0:55:00 and the stellarator
0:55:00 are both
0:55:02 magnetic systems.
0:55:03 Their goal
0:55:04 is to generate
0:55:05 this magnetic field
0:55:07 and hold on
0:55:08 to the fusion fuel
0:55:09 long enough.
0:55:10 Like I mentioned,
0:55:11 these charged particles
0:55:11 are trapped
0:55:13 on the magnetic field.
0:55:13 In fact,
0:55:14 they’re oscillating.
0:55:15 We call that a gyroorbit
0:55:17 as the radius
0:55:18 that they oscillate
0:55:19 around this magnetic field.
0:55:21 And we’ve been talking
0:55:22 about atomic physics
0:55:22 where everything is
0:55:24 at this nanoscale.
0:55:26 But gyroorbits are not.
0:55:27 Gyroorbits for these
0:55:27 fusion particles
0:55:29 are measured in inches.
0:55:30 And so,
0:55:31 they’re on a scale
0:55:33 that we can see
0:55:34 and measure
0:55:35 and understand
0:55:36 really intuitively.
0:55:38 And in a magnetic system,
0:55:38 your goal
0:55:40 is to simply trap
0:55:41 as many of these particles
0:55:42 as you can
0:55:43 for long enough
0:55:44 and heat them
0:55:45 so they’re hot enough
0:55:46 so that they bang
0:55:47 into each other.
0:55:48 They collide enough
0:55:49 that you’re doing fusion.
0:55:50 And you’re doing enough fusion
0:55:51 to overcome
0:55:52 as fast as you’re losing
0:55:53 those particles.
0:55:54 And so,
0:55:55 that’s what happens
0:55:56 when you put particles
0:55:57 in a magnetic field
0:55:58 and you try to hold on to it.
0:55:59 the challenge is
0:56:01 that’s really hard
0:56:02 to hold on to them long enough.
0:56:04 These particles are moving around.
0:56:05 They’re moving at very high velocity,
0:56:07 millions of miles per hour.
0:56:09 They’re colliding with each other
0:56:10 and they’re getting knocked off
0:56:11 and getting knocked away.
0:56:12 So,
0:56:13 we’ve talked about
0:56:14 inertial fusion
0:56:15 where you try to
0:56:16 confine
0:56:18 a fusion plasma
0:56:19 by crushing it
0:56:20 as fast as possible.
0:56:21 And magnetic fusion
0:56:23 where you just simply
0:56:24 have a magnetic field
0:56:25 and your goal is to hold on to it
0:56:27 for as long as possible.
0:56:29 But there’s another way
0:56:29 to do fusion.
0:56:31 And in some ways,
0:56:32 it’s one of the earliest
0:56:34 approaches for fusion
0:56:35 that was successful.
0:56:37 As scientists and engineers,
0:56:38 maybe we’re not too creative
0:56:39 with the terminology,
0:56:41 we call the technique
0:56:42 that Helion uses
0:56:43 magneto-inertial fusion
0:56:44 because it does
0:56:45 a little bit of both.
0:56:47 So,
0:56:47 to understand that,
0:56:49 we can actually go back
0:56:50 in history a little bit
0:56:51 and think about the evolution
0:56:52 of some of these approaches
0:56:53 to fusion.
0:56:53 And so,
0:56:54 from our perspective,
0:56:55 we look at
0:56:56 the technology
0:56:57 that we use
0:56:58 as built-on
0:56:59 physics experiments
0:57:01 that were very successful
0:57:02 in the 1950s.
0:57:05 And in those systems,
0:57:06 the earliest pioneers
0:57:07 of fusion
0:57:07 said,
0:57:09 I know,
0:57:10 we understand the physics,
0:57:11 we have to take these gases,
0:57:13 heat them to 100 million degrees,
0:57:15 and then confine them,
0:57:16 push them together
0:57:17 so that fusion happens.
0:57:18 And so,
0:57:19 what is the best way
0:57:19 to do that?
0:57:20 So,
0:57:21 some of the earliest programs,
0:57:22 we called them
0:57:23 the theta pinch.
0:57:25 And what those programs were,
0:57:26 were a linear topology
0:57:27 because we knew
0:57:28 how to build these magnets.
0:57:30 It’s called a solenoid
0:57:30 where you take
0:57:32 a series of electric coils,
0:57:33 you run electrical current
0:57:34 through them
0:57:35 that generates
0:57:35 a magnetic field.
0:57:36 Great.
0:57:36 So,
0:57:37 you have a magnetic field.
0:57:38 Now,
0:57:39 you add your fusion particles.
0:57:40 Okay?
0:57:40 So,
0:57:41 you’ve added fusion particles
0:57:42 to this solenoid.
0:57:44 Here’s the challenge.
0:57:45 Those particles,
0:57:46 as they’re sitting
0:57:47 in that magnetic field,
0:57:48 in this nice magnet,
0:57:49 escape.
0:57:50 They leave out the ends
0:57:51 because there’s nothing
0:57:51 holding them in.
0:57:52 Great.
0:57:53 So,
0:57:53 that makes sense.
0:57:55 And so,
0:57:55 that doesn’t work.
0:57:56 Okay?
0:57:56 So,
0:57:57 then the next approach
0:57:57 is say,
0:57:58 well,
0:58:00 one branch of fusion
0:58:00 said,
0:58:00 okay,
0:58:00 well,
0:58:01 to solve that,
0:58:02 why don’t we take
0:58:03 this solenoid
0:58:04 and bend it around?
0:58:05 Let’s just make it
0:58:05 a big donut.
0:58:06 So,
0:58:06 as they’re escaping,
0:58:07 they go around
0:58:08 and around in a circle.
0:58:09 Great.
0:58:10 That’s a great approach.
0:58:10 And so,
0:58:12 one branch of fusion
0:58:13 went down that direction.
0:58:15 And that became,
0:58:16 that evolved into
0:58:17 the stellarator
0:58:18 and the tokamak.
0:58:19 Different ways of
0:58:21 taking those solenoids
0:58:22 and wrapping them around
0:58:23 so that the plasmas
0:58:24 go around and around
0:58:25 in that magnetic field
0:58:27 and those charged particles
0:58:28 are held long enough
0:58:29 that fusion happens.
0:58:30 But there’s a different
0:58:30 way to do it.
0:58:31 And so,
0:58:32 the theta pinch
0:58:33 was what was born
0:58:34 in the 1950s
0:58:36 of take this magnetic field
0:58:36 and oh,
0:58:37 they’re trying to escape.
0:58:38 Great.
0:58:39 Let’s not let them escape.
0:58:41 Let’s close the bottle.
0:58:42 Let’s close the ends.
0:58:43 And so,
0:58:44 we make the magnetic field
0:58:45 much stronger at the ends.
0:58:46 This one was called
0:58:46 the mirror.
0:58:47 And so,
0:58:48 the idea was that
0:58:50 the particles would bounce
0:58:50 in between.
0:58:52 And that worked.
0:58:52 And they got hotter
0:58:53 and hotter and hotter.
0:58:54 But guess what?
0:58:55 As you kind of would imagine,
0:58:58 as this mirror topology,
0:58:59 this linear topology,
0:59:01 the pressure increased inside.
0:59:03 The particle pressure,
0:59:05 the particles tried to push back
0:59:06 on the magnetic field.
0:59:07 They were trying to escape now.
0:59:08 They’re getting hotter
0:59:08 and hotter.
0:59:10 And just as you imagine,
0:59:11 hot gas in a balloon
0:59:13 tries to get out the ends.
0:59:14 You could not hold it
0:59:16 tight enough at the ends
0:59:17 to keep those particles in.
0:59:18 And in fact,
0:59:18 the problem is
0:59:19 the hottest ones
0:59:20 were the ones that would escape.
0:59:21 And so,
0:59:22 you do a good job of heating it
0:59:23 and they’d all leave out the ends.
0:59:24 Okay?
0:59:24 So,
0:59:25 then the next iteration
0:59:26 has said,
0:59:26 okay,
0:59:26 well,
0:59:27 why don’t we just not
0:59:28 try to hold on to it very long?
0:59:30 Why don’t we squeeze it?
0:59:31 And so,
0:59:32 rather than just holding it constantly,
0:59:34 let’s now crush it.
0:59:34 So,
0:59:36 we built this solenoid.
0:59:37 We pinched the ends
0:59:39 and then we crushed it.
0:59:41 And what I mean by crushing it
0:59:43 is not actually like
0:59:44 crushing any magnets
0:59:46 or changing the topology
0:59:48 or moving any parts,
0:59:50 but just rapidly increasing
0:59:50 the magnetic field.
0:59:51 And so,
0:59:53 going from a magnetic field
0:59:54 that’s just holding it
0:59:55 to now,
0:59:56 taking all those particles,
0:59:57 if you imagine they were
1:00:00 in a streaming around together,
1:00:03 and then rapidly increasing
1:00:03 the magnetic field
1:00:04 so that those particles
1:00:05 get closer and closer
1:00:06 and closer together.
1:00:06 So,
1:00:07 you increase the density
1:00:09 and now fusion starts
1:00:10 to really happen.
1:00:12 But they ended up
1:00:13 hitting a technological limit.
1:00:14 So,
1:00:15 this is the part
1:00:17 that I look back
1:00:18 and I look at the pioneers
1:00:20 that in 1958,
1:00:23 there was some pioneering work done
1:00:25 and this was in California,
1:00:26 what later became
1:00:27 Livermore Labs.
1:00:29 There was also some work done
1:00:31 at other national labs too.
1:00:33 these were all federally funded programs
1:00:37 to explore this theta pinch topology
1:00:38 of can you just squeeze
1:00:39 the plasma down fast enough,
1:00:40 hard enough.
1:00:42 This was 1958.
1:00:44 The transistor was sitting
1:00:44 in the laboratory
1:00:47 and they were commuting,
1:00:48 they were turning on millions
1:00:50 of amps of electrical current.
1:00:51 And they were doing it,
1:00:51 we haven’t talked about
1:00:52 the time scales,
1:00:53 but they were doing it
1:00:55 in millionths of a second,
1:00:57 microseconds,
1:00:58 megahertz speeds.
1:01:00 And this was in 1958.
1:01:01 No transistor,
1:01:02 no CPUs,
1:01:05 and no electrical switches,
1:01:06 none of the things
1:01:08 that I take for granted every day.
1:01:09 And so,
1:01:10 they were able to show
1:01:10 at that time
1:01:11 the highest performing
1:01:12 fusion systems.
1:01:14 They got to temperatures,
1:01:15 they didn’t get to
1:01:15 100 million degrees,
1:01:16 not quite then,
1:01:17 but they got to
1:01:18 50 million degrees.
1:01:19 They were outperforming
1:01:20 everything else in fusion,
1:01:21 but they reached
1:01:22 a technical limit
1:01:22 where they just could not
1:01:24 build it anymore.
1:01:26 And so,
1:01:27 they,
1:01:29 those pioneers,
1:01:30 went in a different direction.
1:01:31 And they started down
1:01:32 the laser inertial path
1:01:33 of saying like,
1:01:33 okay,
1:01:33 well,
1:01:34 we can’t do
1:01:37 these electromagnetic pinches,
1:01:39 but we now have,
1:01:40 this new thing
1:01:41 has invented the laser,
1:01:42 which turns on
1:01:42 in a nanosecond.
1:01:43 It’s fast,
1:01:44 it’s interesting.
1:01:45 Let’s go down that path.
1:01:46 And it’s not,
1:01:47 you have to fast forward
1:01:48 a couple of decades
1:01:51 to researchers found
1:01:52 with some of these
1:01:53 theta pinches,
1:01:54 when they’re operated
1:01:55 in a very specific way,
1:01:56 something else happened,
1:01:57 something new happened.
1:02:00 And that these plasmas
1:02:01 where before
1:02:03 they squeezed them
1:02:04 very hard,
1:02:05 and just like squeezing
1:02:05 a tube of toothpaste,
1:02:07 they squirted out the ends.
1:02:07 Now,
1:02:08 it didn’t squirt out the ends.
1:02:10 It actually pushed back.
1:02:11 It stayed confined.
1:02:12 It stayed trapped
1:02:14 inside that linear topology.
1:02:15 Even though the ends
1:02:16 were open,
1:02:17 the plasma didn’t leave.
1:02:18 And so,
1:02:20 there was a large amount
1:02:20 of programs of like,
1:02:21 what is happening here?
1:02:23 This is an accidental discovery
1:02:24 in plasma physics
1:02:25 that something new
1:02:25 is happening.
1:02:27 And what we discovered
1:02:28 is we now call
1:02:29 the field reverse configuration.
1:02:31 There’s numerous programs
1:02:33 of FRC,
1:02:35 field reverse configuration
1:02:35 programs,
1:02:37 both at national labs.
1:02:38 There’s actually a number
1:02:39 of private companies now
1:02:40 of people building
1:02:41 field reverse configurations.
1:02:43 And they have some
1:02:44 really unique properties.
1:02:46 But fundamentally,
1:02:47 talking about
1:02:47 the main difference,
1:02:48 I described solenoid
1:02:49 with magnetic fields
1:02:51 throughout the center
1:02:52 of that volume
1:02:53 and plasma trapped
1:02:55 going back and forth.
1:02:56 But some other things
1:02:56 can happen,
1:02:57 which is really interesting.
1:02:59 And what they discovered
1:03:00 early is if
1:03:01 they have field
1:03:02 going in one direction,
1:03:03 so the plasma,
1:03:05 the electrical current
1:03:07 is going around the loop
1:03:08 and the plasma
1:03:09 is going back and forth
1:03:11 along this magnetic field line
1:03:13 inside that solenoid,
1:03:14 inside that theta patch.
1:03:16 But then they changed
1:03:16 the direction
1:03:17 of the magnetic field.
1:03:18 And this is
1:03:19 what we call field reversal.
1:03:21 And this is really the key
1:03:21 is that you start
1:03:22 with the plasma
1:03:23 going in one direction
1:03:24 and then very rapidly
1:03:26 you change the direction.
1:03:27 You change the direction
1:03:29 and reverse the direction
1:03:29 of that field.
1:03:30 And something really
1:03:31 interesting happens,
1:03:32 which is the plasma,
1:03:34 this fusion fuel,
1:03:35 these charged particles,
1:03:36 which are trapped
1:03:38 on the magnetic field lines
1:03:39 that are moving
1:03:40 back and forth,
1:03:41 you change the direction.
1:03:42 What that means
1:03:43 is that you’re trying
1:03:44 to take that
1:03:45 electrical current
1:03:47 and that magnetic field
1:03:49 and reverts its direction,
1:03:50 flip it.
1:03:53 But it can’t flip fast enough
1:03:54 that the plasma
1:03:55 is sitting there
1:03:56 and you can’t move
1:03:57 the particles.
1:03:59 And so what’s really interesting
1:03:59 is what happens
1:04:01 is that because
1:04:02 the particles can’t move,
1:04:03 but you’ve now flipped
1:04:04 the direction
1:04:05 of the magnetic field,
1:04:06 you’ve inverted it,
1:04:08 something really,
1:04:09 really unique happens,
1:04:09 which is that
1:04:10 the plasma itself
1:04:12 reconnects internally.
1:04:14 And so now
1:04:15 what you’re left with
1:04:17 is an outside
1:04:18 magnetic field,
1:04:19 an electrical coil,
1:04:20 and inside
1:04:21 the plasma
1:04:22 where now it was,
1:04:23 before it was moving
1:04:24 along,
1:04:25 it’s now moving
1:04:26 internally.
1:04:28 Rapidly reversing
1:04:30 the magnetic field,
1:04:32 plasma self-organizes
1:04:33 into a closed field.
1:04:35 What?
1:04:36 Yep.
1:04:37 So how…
1:04:38 It sounds wild.
1:04:39 It’s, it’s, it’s,
1:04:40 yeah.
1:04:40 So first of all,
1:04:41 there’s a lot of,
1:04:42 there’s a million questions
1:04:42 I have,
1:04:43 but one of them,
1:04:44 what’s rapidly?
1:04:47 What time scale
1:04:48 are we talking about here?
1:04:51 You have to reverse
1:04:52 the electrical current
1:04:55 faster than a million degree,
1:04:56 which is a very hot
1:04:57 gas particle,
1:04:57 can move.
1:04:58 And so that means
1:04:59 we have to do it
1:05:00 on the order
1:05:01 of a millionth of a second.
1:05:02 Wow.
1:05:02 We have to do it
1:05:03 in a millionth of a second.
1:05:04 Wow.
1:05:06 And, and so in practice,
1:05:08 this is hard.
1:05:09 And it’s only,
1:05:10 we can only do it now
1:05:11 because of
1:05:12 semiconductor switching.
1:05:14 Because we can,
1:05:15 we can move things,
1:05:16 we can switch things
1:05:16 like the transistor
1:05:18 in every CPU
1:05:18 and a computer
1:05:20 switches at a gigahertz.
1:05:21 That means in a nanosecond,
1:05:22 it’s switching
1:05:23 in a billionth of a second.
1:05:24 And so now,
1:05:25 which we didn’t
1:05:26 in the 1950s
1:05:27 when these theta pinches
1:05:27 were invented,
1:05:28 but now we have
1:05:29 the semiconductors
1:05:30 to be able to do that.
1:05:32 The self-organizing plasma.
1:05:34 Can you just speak to that?
1:05:36 What the heck is it doing?
1:05:37 How do we discover,
1:05:38 how do we understand
1:05:40 the self-organizing mechanism,
1:05:41 the dynamics of the plasma
1:05:42 that it’s able
1:05:43 to contain itself?
1:05:45 So what I like to do
1:05:46 is use an analogy here
1:05:49 of once you’ve made it,
1:05:52 it’s actually somewhat
1:05:53 straightforward to understand.
1:05:55 Getting to it is tricky.
1:05:56 And how they discovered it
1:05:57 the first time
1:05:58 is absolutely amazing.
1:06:00 But once you’ve made it,
1:06:01 it’s a lot,
1:06:03 it’s a lot more
1:06:04 straightforward to understand.
1:06:06 So in a magnetic coil,
1:06:07 when you have
1:06:09 a round electrical coil,
1:06:11 you have electrical current
1:06:12 flowing in that coil.
1:06:15 And if you have a conductor,
1:06:16 if you have another,
1:06:17 a metal inside that coil,
1:06:20 and this is called Linz’s law
1:06:22 in one of the Maxwell equations,
1:06:24 is that as you have electrons
1:06:24 and you have current
1:06:26 flowing in that coil,
1:06:28 an equal and opposite
1:06:29 electrical current
1:06:30 is induced
1:06:32 in a piece of metal nearby.
1:06:33 This is the same thing
1:06:34 that happens in a transformer
1:06:36 where you have a primary
1:06:37 on a transformer
1:06:38 and you have electricity
1:06:38 flowing it
1:06:39 and you have a secondary
1:06:40 where electricity flows
1:06:42 exactly the opposite direction.
1:06:43 We use this every day
1:06:44 in our lives.
1:06:47 And so in this condition,
1:06:49 you have a conductor,
1:06:50 an electrical conductor
1:06:51 where current can flow
1:06:52 and you have
1:06:53 an electrical current
1:06:54 flowing on the outside,
1:06:55 electrical current
1:06:56 flows on the inside.
1:06:58 And in that case,
1:06:59 now I’ve described
1:07:00 two pieces of metal.
1:07:03 Now, let’s go one step further
1:07:04 and that inner conductor
1:07:05 is not a piece of metal anymore.
1:07:06 It’s one of these
1:07:07 high temperature gases,
1:07:08 this plasma,
1:07:09 this charged particles.
1:07:12 So now you have current,
1:07:13 electrical current
1:07:14 flowing in the plasma.
1:07:15 And this is really,
1:07:16 really interesting.
1:07:17 We talked about
1:07:18 these charges
1:07:19 moving back and forth.
1:07:21 Well, moving electrical charges
1:07:21 is current.
1:07:23 So in every plasma condition
1:07:24 we’ve talked about,
1:07:25 the tokamak,
1:07:26 the theta pinch,
1:07:27 the stellarator,
1:07:28 there’s electrical current
1:07:29 flowing in the plasma.
1:07:31 But in the field
1:07:31 reverse configuration,
1:07:33 you have a lot
1:07:34 of electrical current
1:07:34 flowing in the plasma.
1:07:36 Massive amounts of it.
1:07:37 And that’s the key.
1:07:38 So you have
1:07:40 the center core
1:07:41 where electrical current
1:07:42 is flowing
1:07:43 in this transformer,
1:07:44 if you want to think about it,
1:07:45 primary and secondary.
1:07:46 And here’s the craziest
1:07:47 part of it.
1:07:49 This electrical current,
1:07:50 how did I describe
1:07:51 a magnet?
1:07:53 An electromagnet
1:07:53 is a loop
1:07:55 that has electrical
1:07:56 current flowing in it
1:07:56 that generates
1:07:57 a magnetic field.
1:08:00 And for a theta pinch
1:08:01 and for a mirror
1:08:02 and for a tokamak,
1:08:04 in that magnetic field,
1:08:05 the plasma gets trapped.
1:08:08 But in an FRC,
1:08:09 this electrical current
1:08:10 is the plasma.
1:08:12 And that plasma
1:08:13 then generates
1:08:14 its own magnetic field.
1:08:17 And it’s then trapped
1:08:18 on its own magnetic field.
1:08:20 That’s fascinating.
1:08:22 And that’s the key.
1:08:23 And so in your tokamak,
1:08:24 in your donut,
1:08:25 and in your funky donut,
1:08:26 your stellarator,
1:08:28 you make the magnets
1:08:29 and you trap
1:08:30 your plasma in it.
1:08:32 In an FRC,
1:08:33 you make the plasma
1:08:34 which makes the magnets.
1:08:36 And it traps itself.
1:08:37 And the craziest part
1:08:38 of this,
1:08:39 in my mind,
1:08:40 is that we actually see this
1:08:42 in nature all the time.
1:08:44 If you look at the sun,
1:08:45 we see solar flares.
1:08:47 And in a solar flare,
1:08:49 we’ve all seen the pictures
1:08:50 of the photosphere
1:08:51 of the sun
1:08:53 and this large arc
1:08:55 of plasma coming out.
1:08:56 That plasma has current,
1:08:57 electrical current,
1:08:58 flowing in it.
1:08:58 And then we see
1:08:59 this solar flare
1:09:01 rip off of the sun.
1:09:02 And that solar flare
1:09:03 then can flow
1:09:04 throughout
1:09:05 and continue
1:09:06 into the solar system.
1:09:08 And for a little while anyway,
1:09:09 it makes something
1:09:10 called a plasmoid.
1:09:11 That plasmoid
1:09:12 is in fact
1:09:13 electrical current
1:09:14 flowing in the plasma,
1:09:16 generating a magnetic field,
1:09:17 and holding it
1:09:18 for longer
1:09:19 than it would otherwise.
1:09:20 And so we’ve observed
1:09:21 these for a hundred years.
1:09:22 And we’ve known
1:09:23 about these plasmoids
1:09:24 for a long time.
1:09:25 And there’s researchers
1:09:26 that have tried
1:09:27 intentionally to make them.
1:09:29 But fundamentally,
1:09:30 that’s what we do
1:09:31 every day
1:09:32 is make one of these
1:09:34 self-organized
1:09:36 closed-field plasmas.
1:09:37 in a more controlled way
1:09:39 at this rapid rate
1:09:39 of one millionth
1:09:40 of a second
1:09:42 and being able
1:09:42 to make sure
1:09:43 it’s reliable,
1:09:43 stable,
1:09:44 and all that kind of stuff.
1:09:45 So by the way,
1:09:46 how do you keep
1:09:46 the thing stable?
1:09:48 And there’s the hard part
1:09:49 because I just described
1:09:50 a solar flare.
1:09:51 And yes,
1:09:52 we’ve seen the pictures
1:09:52 of them,
1:09:53 but we’ve also watched them
1:09:55 and they appear,
1:09:56 they fly away from the sun
1:09:57 and then they go away.
1:09:58 And that’s not
1:09:59 what we want in fusion, right?
1:09:59 We want to be able
1:10:00 to control this.
1:10:01 And so that’s
1:10:02 the hard part of the job.
1:10:04 And so that’s
1:10:05 what we’ve spent
1:10:06 the last number of years
1:10:07 learning how to do
1:10:08 ourselves and others
1:10:10 on these
1:10:11 pulsed
1:10:12 closed-field
1:10:13 FRC systems.
1:10:14 Let’s first talk
1:10:15 about how to make them
1:10:16 and then we’ll talk
1:10:17 about how to make them stable
1:10:18 because they’re two
1:10:19 different things
1:10:19 and we spend a lot
1:10:20 of time on both.
1:10:21 So we talked
1:10:22 about time scale.
1:10:23 So you have to
1:10:23 reverse the field.
1:10:24 You have to
1:10:25 change the electrical
1:10:26 current in a millionth
1:10:27 of a second.
1:10:28 and so how do you
1:10:28 do that?
1:10:30 So I’ve described
1:10:30 this system
1:10:31 as you have
1:10:32 a series of magnets.
1:10:33 You have
1:10:34 a magnetic field
1:10:36 on the outside
1:10:37 and then on the inside
1:10:38 of this you have
1:10:39 this donut,
1:10:41 this FRC
1:10:42 that has its own
1:10:43 electrical current
1:10:44 and we didn’t talk
1:10:45 about this yet
1:10:45 but it’s generated
1:10:46 a magnetic field
1:10:47 and that magnetic field
1:10:48 has pressure.
1:10:50 And this is the other
1:10:50 thing that’s really
1:10:51 interesting.
1:10:52 So we talked
1:10:52 about how this
1:10:53 theta pinch
1:10:54 which compresses
1:10:55 a magnetic field.
1:10:57 It applies a pressure
1:10:58 on the outside
1:11:00 but the plasma
1:11:01 itself has a pressure
1:11:02 on the inside
1:11:03 and it has both
1:11:04 the particle pressure
1:11:05 literally the particles
1:11:06 bouncing.
1:11:07 Think about hot gas
1:11:08 in a balloon.
1:11:09 The particles expanding
1:11:10 the ideal gas law
1:11:11 expanding and contracting
1:11:12 inside a balloon
1:11:13 but they also have
1:11:14 a magnetic pressure.
1:11:15 They have the
1:11:16 electromagnetism
1:11:17 is pushing back
1:11:18 and so I like to
1:11:19 think about this
1:11:20 as the motor
1:11:20 in a Tesla.
1:11:22 In your electric car
1:11:24 you have a motor
1:11:25 electric motor
1:11:26 and what that motor
1:11:27 has is a series
1:11:27 of windings.
1:11:28 Those windings
1:11:29 you flow electrical
1:11:29 current
1:11:30 in this case
1:11:31 from a battery
1:11:31 hit the gas
1:11:32 electricity flows
1:11:33 from the battery
1:11:34 into the motor
1:11:35 into those windings
1:11:36 and it generates
1:11:37 an electromagnetic
1:11:38 force
1:11:39 a Lorentz force
1:11:40 is what it’s
1:11:40 technically called.
1:11:41 This electromagnetic
1:11:43 force induces
1:11:44 an electrical current
1:11:46 on the armature
1:11:47 on the shaft
1:11:48 and this is getting
1:11:49 into the details
1:11:50 but into the armature
1:11:51 of an electrical motor
1:11:51 that actually
1:11:52 is what spins
1:11:53 and so the outside
1:11:54 of a motor
1:11:55 doesn’t spin
1:11:56 you have flow
1:11:56 electrical current
1:11:56 through it
1:11:57 and the inside
1:11:58 does spin.
1:11:59 That electromagnetic
1:12:00 force is what
1:12:01 is spinning
1:12:02 that armature.
1:12:03 In our case
1:12:04 we’re inducing
1:12:05 an electrical force
1:12:06 in that electromagnet
1:12:08 and that’s putting
1:12:09 electrical current
1:12:09 just like in the armature
1:12:11 into that plasma
1:12:13 and we can use
1:12:13 that force
1:12:15 to do interesting things.
1:12:16 So that electromagnetic
1:12:18 force can compress
1:12:19 the fusion plasma
1:12:20 it can expand
1:12:20 the fusion plasma
1:12:21 but here’s the problem
1:12:23 it’s unstable
1:12:24 and so this is something
1:12:25 you learn very early
1:12:27 in your graduate work
1:12:29 as a student
1:12:30 in fusion
1:12:31 is you learn
1:12:32 about plasmas
1:12:32 that are called
1:12:34 high beta plasmas.
1:12:35 So I keep seeing
1:12:37 this plasma beta
1:12:37 thing everywhere
1:12:39 what is this ratio
1:12:40 of plasma field energy
1:12:41 to confining
1:12:42 magnetic field energy
1:12:43 please explain.
1:12:44 Plasma beta
1:12:45 is the ratio
1:12:46 of the magnetic
1:12:46 pressure to the
1:12:47 particle pressure
1:12:48 and so what that
1:12:49 fundamentally means
1:12:50 is I talked about
1:12:51 how you have
1:12:52 a magnetic field
1:12:53 and in that magnetic
1:12:54 field plasma
1:12:55 is trapped
1:12:57 on that magnetic
1:12:57 field
1:12:59 but it’s not
1:13:00 very well trapped
1:13:01 it can escape
1:13:01 it can leave
1:13:03 either down the ends
1:13:03 it can freely travel
1:13:04 or it can also
1:13:06 travel across
1:13:07 the magnetic field
1:13:09 and so we have
1:13:10 a term called
1:13:10 plasma beta
1:13:12 which gives us
1:13:13 an understanding
1:13:13 understanding of
1:13:14 how well trapped
1:13:16 that plasma is
1:13:17 so as you apply
1:13:18 a magnetic pressure
1:13:19 a magnetic field
1:13:20 to this plasma
1:13:21 it pushes back
1:13:22 and does it push
1:13:22 back a little
1:13:23 or does it push
1:13:24 back a lot
1:13:26 and for a field
1:13:27 reverse configuration
1:13:27 in one of our
1:13:28 plasmas
1:13:30 beta is very
1:13:30 close to 1
1:13:31 in fact usually
1:13:33 by definition
1:13:34 1 at any point
1:13:35 in the system
1:13:36 which means
1:13:37 that every time
1:13:37 I apply a magnetic
1:13:38 force on this
1:13:39 donut
1:13:40 to compress it
1:13:41 the plasma
1:13:42 particles on the
1:13:43 inside push back
1:13:45 and what’s really
1:13:45 interesting is
1:13:46 you have an equation
1:13:47 for magnetic
1:13:47 pressure
1:13:48 which is b
1:13:48 squared
1:13:49 or 2 mu
1:13:49 naught
1:13:51 the magnetic
1:13:52 field squared
1:13:54 is the external
1:13:55 magnetic pressure
1:13:56 any magnetic field
1:13:56 anywhere generates
1:13:57 this pressure
1:13:59 but the plasma
1:14:00 particles themselves
1:14:01 also have a pressure
1:14:03 this is the ideal
1:14:03 gas law
1:14:04 and we use
1:14:05 the definition
1:14:06 nkt
1:14:07 density
1:14:08 Boltzmann constant
1:14:09 and temperature
1:14:10 for pressure
1:14:11 and in high beta
1:14:12 they’re the same
1:14:13 b squared
1:14:14 over 2 mu
1:14:14 naught
1:14:15 is nkt
1:14:16 so for a known
1:14:17 magnetic field
1:14:18 I know what the
1:14:19 density and the
1:14:19 temperature of the
1:14:20 plasma is
1:14:22 and just to circle
1:14:22 back to it
1:14:23 we talked about
1:14:23 fusion
1:14:24 we talked about
1:14:24 it had to be
1:14:25 hot enough
1:14:26 and it had to
1:14:27 be dense enough
1:14:28 and that’s n
1:14:29 and that’s t
1:14:30 so now I have
1:14:31 a very clear
1:14:32 equation between
1:14:33 magnetic field
1:14:34 and density
1:14:35 and temperature
1:14:36 of the fusion
1:14:36 fuel
1:14:36 and that’s
1:14:37 really critical
1:14:39 all plasmas
1:14:40 have some
1:14:40 all fusion
1:14:41 plasmas
1:14:41 have some
1:14:41 beta
1:14:42 some number
1:14:44 the FRC
1:14:45 has one of the
1:14:45 highest betas
1:14:46 beta equal one
1:14:47 however what you
1:14:48 also learn
1:14:49 in school
1:14:49 when you
1:14:50 when you learn
1:14:50 about beta
1:14:51 the first time
1:14:51 is you learn
1:14:52 that high beta
1:14:53 plasmas
1:14:53 are typically
1:14:54 unstable
1:14:56 and so the good
1:14:56 way to think
1:14:57 about this
1:14:58 is a
1:14:59 tokamak
1:15:00 is an
1:15:00 accelerator
1:15:01 are stable
1:15:03 because those
1:15:04 plasmas
1:15:04 that are going
1:15:05 around in the
1:15:05 donut
1:15:06 there’s a force
1:15:07 on that
1:15:07 donut
1:15:09 but that
1:15:09 plasma donut
1:15:10 is very well
1:15:11 held by all
1:15:11 those magnetic
1:15:12 fields
1:15:12 by all those
1:15:13 magnetic coils
1:15:14 if it tried
1:15:14 to move
1:15:15 it would be
1:15:16 confined by
1:15:17 that magnetic
1:15:17 coil
1:15:18 but in an
1:15:18 FRC
1:15:19 is unconfined
1:15:20 so the plasma
1:15:21 is confined
1:15:22 but the whole
1:15:22 topology
1:15:23 can do something
1:15:24 what is called
1:15:24 tilt
1:15:25 is that this
1:15:26 whole plasma
1:15:26 donut
1:15:27 because it’s
1:15:28 under pressure
1:15:29 can just
1:15:29 turn over
1:15:31 the way
1:15:31 I think
1:15:31 about this
1:15:32 is
1:15:34 think about
1:15:34 the
1:15:36 a motor
1:15:36 is a good
1:15:37 example
1:15:38 an armature
1:15:39 in the center
1:15:39 of your motor
1:15:40 you have a
1:15:41 spinning armature
1:15:42 you have this
1:15:43 this spinning
1:15:44 magnet
1:15:45 on the inside
1:15:46 and it
1:15:46 is held
1:15:48 by the main
1:15:48 axis of the
1:15:48 magnet
1:15:49 it can’t go
1:15:50 anywhere
1:15:51 we don’t have
1:15:51 that axis
1:15:52 we don’t have
1:15:52 any mechanical
1:15:53 things inside
1:15:53 these fusion
1:15:54 systems
1:15:54 they’re 100
1:15:55 million degrees
1:15:56 you can’t
1:15:56 put any
1:15:56 mechanical
1:15:57 things inside
1:15:57 them
1:15:58 and so
1:15:59 we have
1:15:59 nothing
1:16:00 to hold
1:16:00 on to
1:16:00 it
1:16:00 and so
1:16:01 it’s
1:16:01 unstable
1:16:02 so when
1:16:02 you learn
1:16:03 about the
1:16:03 FRC
1:16:03 that’s the
1:16:04 first thing
1:16:04 you learn
1:16:05 and it
1:16:06 took us
1:16:06 a number
1:16:07 of years
1:16:07 to learn
1:16:08 about a
1:16:08 parameter
1:16:09 of how
1:16:09 to make
1:16:10 them stable
1:16:12 and that’s
1:16:13 pretty fundamental
1:16:14 but most people
1:16:15 who’ve heard
1:16:16 of an FRC
1:16:17 haven’t understood
1:16:17 this really
1:16:18 key fact
1:16:19 and so we
1:16:19 have a parameter
1:16:20 we call
1:16:21 S star
1:16:21 over E
1:16:23 and we’re
1:16:23 getting really
1:16:24 into the physics
1:16:25 weeds here
1:16:26 but let’s
1:16:26 go
1:16:26 but it’s
1:16:27 really
1:16:27 important
1:16:29 and the
1:16:29 good analogy
1:16:30 here is a
1:16:30 top
1:16:32 literally a
1:16:32 top
1:16:32 spinning
1:16:33 top
1:16:33 and so you
1:16:33 have a
1:16:34 top
1:16:34 spinning
1:16:35 on your
1:16:36 desk
1:16:36 you know
1:16:36 that it’ll
1:16:37 spin for a
1:16:37 little while
1:16:38 and then it
1:16:38 will fall
1:16:38 over
1:16:39 it is
1:16:40 unstable
1:16:41 however if
1:16:41 you spin
1:16:42 it fast
1:16:42 enough
1:16:43 if you take
1:16:43 a top
1:16:43 and you
1:16:43 spin it
1:16:44 fast
1:16:44 enough
1:16:45 put enough
1:16:45 angular
1:16:45 momentum
1:16:46 enough
1:16:46 angular
1:16:47 inertia
1:16:47 into that
1:16:48 system
1:16:48 it’ll
1:16:49 stay
1:16:49 upright
1:16:51 even though
1:16:52 it wants
1:16:52 to just
1:16:52 fall over
1:16:53 even though
1:16:54 it’s unstable
1:16:55 and we do
1:16:55 the same
1:16:55 thing in
1:16:56 an FRC
1:16:57 if you can
1:16:58 drive it
1:16:58 fast enough
1:16:59 if you can
1:16:59 add enough
1:17:00 kinetic energy
1:17:01 and inertia
1:17:02 to the particles
1:17:03 it will stay
1:17:04 stable
1:17:06 however you can
1:17:07 do another
1:17:07 really key
1:17:08 thing
1:17:09 we are not
1:17:09 limited now
1:17:11 to having a
1:17:11 very skinny
1:17:12 top
1:17:12 we can actually
1:17:13 make it much
1:17:13 bigger
1:17:14 so the good
1:17:15 analogy here
1:17:15 is if you
1:17:16 have a coin
1:17:16 and you know
1:17:17 you’re spinning
1:17:17 that coin
1:17:18 if you spin it
1:17:19 faster and faster
1:17:20 it’ll stay
1:17:20 spinning longer
1:17:21 however
1:17:23 eventually
1:17:23 it’ll slow
1:17:23 down
1:17:24 and fall
1:17:24 over
1:17:25 but if you
1:17:25 had a roll
1:17:26 of duct tape
1:17:26 if you had
1:17:27 something thicker
1:17:28 and heavier
1:17:29 and longer
1:17:30 and it’s
1:17:30 spinning around
1:17:31 that same
1:17:31 axis
1:17:32 it’ll stay
1:17:33 spinning even
1:17:33 longer
1:17:34 both because
1:17:35 of the inertia
1:17:35 and because
1:17:36 of the geometry
1:17:37 and so we have
1:17:38 this parameter
1:17:39 called S star
1:17:39 over E
1:17:40 S star is
1:17:41 the hybrid
1:17:42 kinetic parameter
1:17:43 which tells
1:17:44 you how
1:17:46 stable it is
1:17:47 from that top
1:17:48 point of view
1:17:49 and the E
1:17:49 which is the
1:17:50 elongation
1:17:51 of how long
1:17:52 it is
1:17:53 and so
1:17:54 maybe fortuitously
1:17:55 thank you nature
1:17:57 gave us a win here
1:17:57 which is that
1:17:58 how we make
1:17:59 these in these
1:18:00 long solenoids
1:18:01 is naturally
1:18:02 very very long
1:18:03 and so we can
1:18:04 build these
1:18:05 with very long
1:18:06 lengths
1:18:07 and if we can
1:18:08 drive them
1:18:09 fast enough
1:18:09 and hard enough
1:18:11 and drive the ions
1:18:12 to move
1:18:12 at very high
1:18:13 velocities
1:18:14 we can stabilize
1:18:15 against those
1:18:16 instabilities
1:18:17 and hold them
1:18:17 stable
1:18:18 and so we
1:18:18 now know
1:18:19 we can design
1:18:20 with a given
1:18:20 S star
1:18:21 over E
1:18:21 parameter
1:18:22 we can design
1:18:23 these for very
1:18:24 long lives
1:18:25 the theory
1:18:26 of the systems
1:18:27 we make
1:18:28 say that
1:18:29 they should last
1:18:29 for a few
1:18:30 microseconds
1:18:31 at most
1:18:33 us and others
1:18:33 in the field
1:18:34 have been able
1:18:34 to make them
1:18:35 last for thousands
1:18:36 of microseconds
1:18:37 thousands of times
1:18:39 what the stability
1:18:40 the basic
1:18:42 criteria would tell you
1:18:43 and so we know
1:18:44 now how to do this
1:18:45 and so we just
1:18:45 design them
1:18:46 with this built
1:18:46 into them
1:18:47 can you
1:18:48 explain a little
1:18:49 bit more
1:18:49 that star
1:18:50 over E
1:18:51 are you given
1:18:51 that
1:18:52 or
1:18:53 is that an
1:18:54 emergent thing
1:18:56 so like at which
1:18:57 stage is that the
1:18:58 result or the
1:18:58 requirement
1:19:00 it’s a great
1:19:00 question
1:19:02 so it is a
1:19:02 requirement
1:19:04 of the system
1:19:05 is that
1:19:05 you must
1:19:06 design it
1:19:07 with this
1:19:08 parameter in
1:19:08 mind
1:19:09 the hard part
1:19:10 is you have
1:19:11 to design it
1:19:12 with S star
1:19:12 over E
1:19:13 being satisfied
1:19:14 the whole
1:19:15 time
1:19:17 and here’s
1:19:17 the extra
1:19:18 trick here
1:19:19 S star
1:19:19 over E
1:19:20 is also
1:19:21 a measure
1:19:22 of temperature
1:19:23 and
1:19:25 it all
1:19:26 comes back
1:19:26 to temperature
1:19:27 the hotter
1:19:28 you make
1:19:28 them
1:19:29 is the same
1:19:30 thing
1:19:30 temperature
1:19:31 is kinetic
1:19:31 energy
1:19:32 is the
1:19:32 faster
1:19:32 you’re
1:19:33 spinning
1:19:34 so if
1:19:34 you take
1:19:35 your top
1:19:36 and you
1:19:36 spin it
1:19:36 faster
1:19:37 it’s more
1:19:37 stable
1:19:38 but you
1:19:39 got to
1:19:39 make it
1:19:39 hot
1:19:40 and so
1:19:40 here’s
1:19:41 the trick
1:19:41 how do
1:19:42 you make
1:19:42 something
1:19:43 hot
1:19:43 that’s
1:19:43 starting
1:19:44 cold
1:19:44 and it
1:19:44 has to
1:19:45 be hot
1:19:45 by definition
1:19:47 and so
1:19:47 that’s
1:19:48 part of
1:19:49 the challenge
1:19:49 of what
1:19:50 we do
1:19:50 day to
1:19:50 day
1:19:51 is getting
1:19:51 to these
1:19:52 hot
1:19:52 plasmas
1:19:53 and where
1:19:53 people have
1:19:54 other people
1:19:54 have tried
1:19:55 to make
1:19:55 FRCs
1:19:56 and not
1:19:56 been very
1:19:57 successful
1:19:57 it’s because
1:19:57 they couldn’t
1:19:58 get it hot
1:19:58 enough
1:19:59 fast enough
1:19:59 is it
1:20:00 fell over
1:20:01 it tilted
1:20:02 before it
1:20:02 got hot
1:20:03 and so
1:20:03 we spend
1:20:04 a lot
1:20:04 of our
1:20:05 electrical
1:20:05 engineering
1:20:06 some ways
1:20:06 Helion
1:20:07 is more
1:20:07 of an
1:20:07 electrical
1:20:08 engineering
1:20:10 some days
1:20:12 focusing on
1:20:12 how to
1:20:13 make
1:20:13 the
1:20:13 electronics
1:20:14 fast
1:20:15 enough
1:20:15 to be able
1:20:16 to get
1:20:16 it hot
1:20:17 enough
1:20:17 soon
1:20:17 enough
1:20:18 that you
1:20:18 can
1:20:19 keep it
1:20:19 stable
1:20:20 the whole
1:20:20 time
1:20:21 so you’re
1:20:21 trying to
1:20:21 reach 100
1:20:22 million
1:20:22 degrees
1:20:23 how do
1:20:23 you get
1:20:23 to that
1:20:24 temperature
1:20:24 fast
1:20:25 and by
1:20:25 the way
1:20:26 what can
1:20:28 you say
1:20:29 to help
1:20:30 somebody like
1:20:30 me understand
1:20:31 what 100
1:20:32 million degrees
1:20:33 is like
1:20:33 it seems
1:20:34 insane
1:20:35 what does
1:20:36 that world
1:20:36 look like
1:20:37 I guess
1:20:38 just everything
1:20:38 is moving
1:20:39 really fast
1:20:40 like you
1:20:40 said you
1:20:40 can’t put
1:20:41 anything
1:20:41 mechanical
1:20:41 in there
1:20:43 yeah so
1:20:43 a couple
1:20:44 of key
1:20:44 things happen
1:20:45 so when
1:20:46 gas is
1:20:46 that hot
1:20:47 there’s
1:20:48 we talk
1:20:48 about the
1:20:49 states of
1:20:49 matter
1:20:49 you have
1:20:50 solids
1:20:51 where
1:20:52 ice
1:20:52 it’s
1:20:53 cold
1:20:54 the atoms
1:20:54 are now
1:20:54 bound
1:20:56 in a
1:20:56 lattice
1:20:56 structure
1:20:57 together
1:20:57 they’re held
1:20:58 together
1:20:58 and then
1:20:58 liquid
1:20:59 you’ve
1:20:59 broken a
1:21:00 lot of
1:21:00 that lattice
1:21:00 structure
1:21:01 they can
1:21:01 move
1:21:01 around
1:21:02 they have
1:21:02 some
1:21:03 kinetic
1:21:03 energy
1:21:04 but they’re
1:21:04 still pretty
1:21:04 contained
1:21:05 they stay
1:21:05 in the
1:21:05 bowl
1:21:06 keep heating
1:21:06 it
1:21:07 now you’re
1:21:07 in gas
1:21:08 and now
1:21:09 these particles
1:21:09 are free
1:21:10 to move
1:21:10 around
1:21:11 they’re
1:21:11 moving
1:21:11 around
1:21:11 they’re bouncing
1:21:12 off of each
1:21:12 other all the
1:21:13 time
1:21:14 and you can
1:21:14 keep heating
1:21:15 it from there
1:21:15 and that’s
1:21:16 where we talk
1:21:17 about some
1:21:18 more phases
1:21:18 of matter
1:21:20 we can add a
1:21:20 little bit more
1:21:21 physics here
1:21:22 we talk about
1:21:23 rarefied gases
1:21:24 so when we
1:21:24 think about
1:21:25 most gases
1:21:26 that humans
1:21:27 interact with
1:21:28 they act
1:21:28 like a
1:21:28 fluid
1:21:29 and what
1:21:29 I mean
1:21:30 by that
1:21:30 is that
1:21:30 they’re
1:21:30 colliding
1:21:31 with each
1:21:31 other
1:21:32 so often
1:21:33 that the
1:21:33 particles
1:21:34 at any
1:21:35 one place
1:21:36 here
1:21:36 the air
1:21:37 is roughly
1:21:37 the same
1:21:37 temperature
1:21:38 as the air
1:21:38 here
1:21:39 that these
1:21:39 particles
1:21:40 are bouncing
1:21:41 off of each
1:21:41 other
1:21:42 if you put
1:21:42 a really
1:21:43 hot one
1:21:43 right here
1:21:44 it would
1:21:44 then cool
1:21:44 enough
1:21:45 that all
1:21:45 the air
1:21:46 is roughly
1:21:46 on the
1:21:46 same
1:21:46 temperature
1:21:47 but you
1:21:48 can be
1:21:48 what’s
1:21:48 called
1:21:48 rarefied
1:21:49 and this
1:21:49 is like
1:21:49 space
1:21:50 this is
1:21:51 where now
1:21:51 you have
1:21:51 particles
1:21:52 moving around
1:21:53 but they
1:21:54 don’t collide
1:21:54 with each
1:21:54 other very
1:21:55 often
1:21:55 and so you
1:21:55 can have
1:21:56 one very
1:21:57 very high
1:21:57 energy
1:21:57 particle
1:21:57 and very
1:21:58 cold
1:21:58 energy
1:21:58 particle
1:21:59 and they
1:21:59 may not
1:22:00 even touch
1:22:00 each other
1:22:01 but maybe
1:22:01 occasionally
1:22:01 they bang
1:22:02 into each
1:22:02 other
1:22:03 they collide
1:22:03 and then
1:22:04 they transfer
1:22:04 energy
1:22:05 and that’s
1:22:05 where we
1:22:05 call
1:22:05 rarefied
1:22:06 and then
1:22:06 you can
1:22:06 go even
1:22:06 hotter
1:22:07 than that
1:22:08 and that’s
1:22:08 where now
1:22:09 the actual
1:22:10 atomic
1:22:10 states
1:22:11 which has
1:22:12 the nucleus
1:22:13 which has
1:22:13 a proton
1:22:14 and a neutron
1:22:14 and an
1:22:15 electron
1:22:16 gets so hot
1:22:16 that electron
1:22:17 gets energized
1:22:20 and now
1:22:21 they’re charged
1:22:21 you have a
1:22:22 positive nucleus
1:22:22 and a
1:22:23 negative
1:22:23 electron
1:22:24 floating out
1:22:25 and that
1:22:25 happens
1:22:26 on the
1:22:27 order of
1:22:27 10,000
1:22:28 degrees
1:22:29 so way
1:22:29 hotter
1:22:30 than what
1:22:30 we’re used
1:22:30 to
1:22:31 but now
1:22:31 we’re going
1:22:31 to go
1:22:32 hotter
1:22:32 we’re going
1:22:32 to take
1:22:33 this plasma
1:22:33 and go
1:22:34 even hotter
1:22:34 and what
1:22:34 does that
1:22:34 mean
1:22:35 at that
1:22:35 point
1:22:35 a lot
1:22:36 of the
1:22:36 way
1:22:36 we think
1:22:36 about
1:22:37 temperature
1:22:37 doesn’t
1:22:38 really
1:22:38 apply
1:22:38 the idea
1:22:39 that you
1:22:39 have
1:22:39 these
1:22:40 random
1:22:40 motion
1:22:41 of
1:22:42 particles
1:22:42 because
1:22:43 now
1:22:43 they’re
1:22:43 all
1:22:43 individual
1:22:44 particles
1:22:45 moving at
1:22:45 very high
1:22:46 velocities
1:22:46 so what
1:22:46 it’s
1:22:46 really
1:22:48 is a
1:22:49 measurement
1:22:49 of
1:22:50 is
1:22:50 velocity
1:22:52 it’s
1:22:52 really
1:22:52 a
1:22:52 measurement
1:22:53 of
1:22:53 how
1:22:53 fast
1:22:54 is
1:22:54 that
1:22:54 particle
1:22:55 moving
1:22:56 and
1:22:57 that’s
1:22:58 how I
1:22:58 really
1:22:58 think
1:22:59 about
1:22:59 temperature
1:23:00 when you
1:23:00 get to
1:23:00 that
1:23:00 hundred
1:23:01 million
1:23:01 degrees
1:23:02 and so
1:23:02 it does
1:23:04 some more
1:23:04 complex
1:23:04 things
1:23:05 if you
1:23:06 have
1:23:06 this
1:23:06 high
1:23:07 energy
1:23:07 particle
1:23:08 that’s
1:23:08 why
1:23:08 we
1:23:08 like
1:23:08 fusion
1:23:09 is
1:23:09 moving
1:23:09 at
1:23:09 high
1:23:10 velocity
1:23:10 and
1:23:10 there’s
1:23:10 another
1:23:10 one
1:23:11 moving
1:23:11 at
1:23:11 high
1:23:11 velocity
1:23:12 they
1:23:12 will
1:23:12 come
1:23:12 together
1:23:13 collide
1:23:13 and
1:23:13 they will
1:23:14 fuse
1:23:15 but
1:23:15 other
1:23:15 things
1:23:15 will
1:23:16 happen
1:23:16 you
1:23:16 don’t
1:23:16 want
1:23:17 to
1:23:17 touch
1:23:17 that
1:23:17 high
1:23:18 velocity
1:23:18 particle
1:23:18 with
1:23:19 any
1:23:19 kind
1:23:19 of
1:23:20 material
1:23:20 because
1:23:20 it
1:23:20 will
1:23:21 collide
1:23:21 with
1:23:21 that
1:23:21 material
1:23:22 damage
1:23:22 that
1:23:23 material
1:23:23 and
1:23:23 usually
1:23:24 blow
1:23:24 off
1:23:24 some
1:23:24 chunks
1:23:24 of
1:23:25 that
1:23:25 material
1:23:26 so
1:23:26 we
1:23:26 don’t
1:23:26 do
1:23:26 that
1:23:26 we
1:23:26 keep
1:23:27 those
1:23:27 charged
1:23:27 particles
1:23:27 in
1:23:28 a
1:23:28 magnetic
1:23:28 field
1:23:28 so
1:23:29 they
1:23:29 just
1:23:29 bounce
1:23:29 around
1:23:30 and
1:23:30 they
1:23:30 don’t
1:23:30 ever
1:23:31 touch
1:23:31 anything
1:23:31 and
1:23:32 that’s
1:23:33 really
1:23:33 important
1:23:34 and so
1:23:34 it’s
1:23:35 less
1:23:35 thinking
1:23:36 about
1:23:36 it
1:23:36 from
1:23:36 the
1:23:36 way
1:23:36 we
1:23:37 normally
1:23:37 think
1:23:37 about
1:23:37 hot
1:23:38 and
1:23:38 cold
1:23:38 and
1:23:39 more
1:23:39 thinking
1:23:39 about
1:23:39 it
1:23:39 from
1:23:40 a
1:23:40 velocity
1:23:40 point
1:23:41 of
1:23:41 view
1:23:41 so
1:23:42 what
1:23:42 we
1:23:42 should
1:23:42 be
1:23:43 imagining
1:23:43 is
1:23:44 extremely
1:23:45 fast
1:23:45 moving
1:23:46 what is
1:23:46 it
1:23:46 1
1:23:47 million
1:23:48 miles
1:23:49 per
1:23:49 hour
1:23:49 is that
1:23:50 accurate
1:23:50 that’s
1:23:50 the
1:23:50 right
1:23:50 kind
1:23:51 of
1:23:51 order
1:23:51 for
1:23:52 these
1:23:52 systems
1:23:53 crazy
1:23:54 and so
1:23:54 you’re
1:23:54 looking
1:23:54 for
1:23:55 them
1:23:55 to
1:23:55 collide
1:23:56 well
1:23:56 first
1:23:56 of
1:23:56 all
1:23:56 to
1:23:57 get
1:23:57 back
1:23:57 is
1:23:58 there
1:23:58 some
1:23:58 interesting
1:23:59 insights
1:24:00 tricks
1:24:00 anything
1:24:01 you
1:24:01 could
1:24:01 say
1:24:01 to
1:24:01 the
1:24:02 complexity
1:24:02 of
1:24:02 the
1:24:02 problem
1:24:03 of
1:24:03 getting
1:24:03 it
1:24:04 to
1:24:04 that
1:24:05 high
1:24:05 temperature
1:24:06 quickly
1:24:07 so
1:24:07 if
1:24:08 temperature
1:24:08 is
1:24:09 velocity
1:24:10 that
1:24:10 means
1:24:10 they’re
1:24:11 moving
1:24:11 quickly
1:24:12 over a
1:24:12 given
1:24:12 amount
1:24:12 of
1:24:13 space
1:24:14 speed
1:24:14 is
1:24:15 distance
1:24:15 divided
1:24:15 by
1:24:15 time
1:24:17 and
1:24:17 so
1:24:18 if
1:24:18 you
1:24:18 have
1:24:18 a
1:24:19 machine
1:24:19 of
1:24:19 a
1:24:19 certain
1:24:20 size
1:24:20 and
1:24:20 it’s
1:24:20 moving
1:24:20 very
1:24:21 fast
1:24:21 that
1:24:21 tells
1:24:22 you
1:24:22 the
1:24:22 time
1:24:23 that
1:24:23 that
1:24:23 particle
1:24:23 is
1:24:24 moving
1:24:24 from
1:24:24 place
1:24:25 to
1:24:25 place
1:24:25 in
1:24:25 that
1:24:26 machine
1:24:27 and
1:24:27 in
1:24:28 fact
1:24:28 if
1:24:28 it’s
1:24:28 a
1:24:29 million
1:24:29 miles
1:24:29 per
1:24:29 hour
1:24:30 these
1:24:31 are
1:24:31 on
1:24:31 the
1:24:31 order
1:24:32 of
1:24:32 100
1:24:33 kilometers
1:24:33 per
1:24:34 second
1:24:34 which
1:24:35 you
1:24:35 can
1:24:35 flip
1:24:35 that
1:24:35 around
1:24:36 and
1:24:36 you
1:24:36 can
1:24:36 say
1:24:36 you’re
1:24:37 moving
1:24:37 at
1:24:38 meters
1:24:38 per
1:24:39 microsecond
1:24:40 so
1:24:41 feet
1:24:41 per
1:24:41 millionth
1:24:41 of
1:24:42 a
1:24:42 second
1:24:43 and
1:24:43 so
1:24:43 that
1:24:44 fundamentally
1:24:44 tells
1:24:44 you
1:24:44 and
1:24:45 we’ve
1:24:45 known
1:24:45 this
1:24:45 as
1:24:46 soon
1:24:46 as
1:24:46 you
1:24:46 say
1:24:46 I
1:24:46 want
1:24:46 to
1:24:46 do
1:24:47 fusion
1:24:47 you
1:24:48 know
1:24:48 you
1:24:48 need
1:24:49 to
1:24:49 react
1:24:49 to
1:24:49 the
1:24:50 universe
1:24:50 in
1:24:51 microseconds
1:24:52 and
1:24:53 be able
1:24:53 to
1:24:54 understand
1:24:54 the
1:24:54 system
1:24:55 in
1:24:55 that
1:24:55 speed
1:24:55 and
1:24:55 if
1:24:56 you
1:24:56 get
1:24:56 it
1:24:56 hotter
1:24:56 it
1:24:56 goes
1:24:57 even
1:24:57 faster
1:24:57 and
1:24:57 you
1:24:58 have
1:24:58 to
1:24:58 go
1:24:58 faster
1:24:59 and
1:25:00 so
1:25:00 we
1:25:01 look
1:25:01 at
1:25:01 those
1:25:01 and
1:25:02 that’s
1:25:02 how
1:25:02 we
1:25:02 think
1:25:02 about
1:25:02 the
1:25:03 systems
1:25:03 we
1:25:03 measure
1:25:04 everything
1:25:04 in
1:25:04 microseconds
1:25:05 not
1:25:05 in
1:25:05 seconds
1:25:06 and
1:25:06 so
1:25:06 when
1:25:06 you
1:25:06 do
1:25:07 fusion
1:25:07 it’s
1:25:07 pretty
1:25:08 wild
1:25:08 it’s
1:25:09 literally
1:25:09 a
1:25:09 flash
1:25:10 fusion
1:25:11 happens
1:25:12 and
1:25:12 it’s
1:25:13 over
1:25:13 you
1:25:14 start
1:25:14 it
1:25:14 you
1:25:14 do
1:25:15 a lot
1:25:15 of
1:25:15 fusion
1:25:15 you
1:25:16 recover
1:25:16 energy
1:25:16 from
1:25:17 it
1:25:17 and
1:25:17 then
1:25:17 you
1:25:18 turn
1:25:18 it
1:25:18 off
1:25:19 before
1:25:19 the
1:25:20 human
1:25:20 eye
1:25:20 can
1:25:20 really
1:25:21 respond
1:25:21 even
1:25:22 and
1:25:22 there’s
1:25:22 a
1:25:23 computer
1:25:23 managing
1:25:24 all
1:25:24 this
1:25:24 like
1:25:24 how
1:25:25 do
1:25:25 you
1:25:25 program
1:25:25 these
1:25:26 kinds
1:25:26 of
1:25:26 systems
1:25:33 fusion
1:25:34 were
1:25:34 able
1:25:34 to
1:25:34 do
1:25:35 before
1:25:35 the
1:25:35 computer
1:25:35 existed
1:25:36 because
1:25:36 they
1:25:36 had
1:25:36 to
1:25:37 control
1:25:37 things
1:25:38 at
1:25:38 this
1:25:38 scale
1:25:39 but
1:25:40 maybe
1:25:40 it was
1:25:40 pretty
1:25:40 hard
1:25:40 and
1:25:41 why
1:25:41 we’ve
1:25:42 been
1:25:42 able
1:25:42 to
1:25:42 be
1:25:43 take
1:25:43 what
1:25:43 they
1:25:43 did
1:25:44 and
1:25:44 build
1:25:44 on
1:25:44 it
1:25:45 because
1:25:45 now
1:25:46 we
1:25:46 use
1:25:47 modern
1:25:48 gigahertz
1:25:49 scale
1:25:49 computing
1:25:49 to be
1:25:50 able
1:25:50 to do
1:25:50 this
1:25:50 and
1:25:51 so
1:25:51 even
1:25:51 when
1:25:51 I
1:25:52 started
1:25:52 my
1:25:52 career
1:25:53 we
1:25:53 talked
1:25:53 about
1:25:53 like
1:25:54 megahertz
1:25:54 processors
1:25:55 megahertz
1:25:56 is
1:25:56 microseconds
1:25:56 that’s
1:25:57 great
1:25:57 you’re
1:25:57 kind
1:25:58 of
1:25:58 at
1:25:58 the
1:25:58 border
1:25:58 of
1:25:59 fast
1:25:59 enough
1:26:00 but
1:26:00 you
1:26:01 can’t
1:26:01 do
1:26:02 computation
1:26:02 at
1:26:02 that
1:26:02 speed
1:26:03 if
1:26:04 all
1:26:04 it
1:26:04 can
1:26:04 do
1:26:04 is
1:26:05 respond
1:26:05 in
1:26:05 one
1:26:06 microsecond
1:26:06 but
1:26:07 now
1:26:07 gigahertz
1:26:07 means
1:26:08 I
1:26:08 can
1:26:08 do
1:26:08 a
1:26:08 thousand
1:26:10 operations
1:26:11 in
1:26:11 that
1:26:11 one
1:26:12 microsecond
1:26:12 so I
1:26:12 can
1:26:12 do
1:26:12 more
1:26:13 useful
1:26:13 things
1:26:14 so
1:26:14 we
1:26:14 use
1:26:15 mostly
1:26:16 this
1:26:16 is
1:26:16 way
1:26:16 too
1:26:16 fast
1:26:16 for
1:26:17 any
1:26:17 human
1:26:17 to
1:26:17 respond
1:26:18 to
1:26:18 so
1:26:18 we
1:26:19 use
1:26:19 what’s
1:26:19 called
1:26:20 programmable
1:26:20 logic
1:26:21 so
1:26:21 we
1:26:22 program
1:26:22 in
1:26:22 sequences
1:26:23 to
1:26:23 the
1:26:23 fusion
1:26:24 system
1:26:24 to
1:26:24 be
1:26:24 able
1:26:25 to
1:26:25 do
1:26:25 this
1:26:26 reversal
1:26:26 we
1:26:27 pre-program
1:26:27 it
1:26:28 and then
1:26:28 we
1:26:28 run
1:26:28 a
1:26:29 sequence
1:26:29 and
1:26:29 then
1:26:30 fusion
1:26:30 happens
1:26:31 and
1:26:31 so
1:26:32 in
1:26:32 this
1:26:33 sequence
1:26:33 programming
1:26:34 language
1:26:34 we use
1:26:34 a variety
1:26:35 of
1:26:35 them
1:26:35 some
1:26:35 of
1:26:35 the
1:26:36 fusion
1:26:36 codes
1:26:36 are
1:26:36 actually
1:26:37 written
1:26:37 in
1:26:37 Fortran
1:26:38 still
1:26:39 nice
1:26:40 and
1:26:40 though
1:26:40 a lot
1:26:40 is
1:26:40 now
1:26:41 more
1:26:41 and
1:26:41 more
1:26:41 running
1:26:42 Python
1:26:43 and
1:26:43 so
1:26:43 we
1:26:43 do
1:26:44 a lot
1:26:44 of
1:26:44 Python
1:26:44 we
1:26:44 do
1:26:45 some
1:26:45 Java
1:26:45 and
1:26:45 then
1:26:45 we
1:26:46 also
1:26:46 have
1:26:47 because
1:26:47 of
1:26:47 the
1:26:48 speed
1:26:48 of
1:26:48 this
1:26:48 it’s
1:26:49 a lot
1:26:49 of
1:26:49 assembly
1:26:49 language
1:26:50 programming
1:26:50 so
1:26:50 we
1:26:50 go
1:26:51 right
1:26:51 to
1:26:51 the
1:26:51 assembly
1:26:52 level
1:26:52 of
1:26:52 the
1:26:53 programmable
1:26:53 logic
1:26:54 FPGAs
1:26:55 and
1:26:55 we
1:26:55 program
1:26:55 those
1:26:56 and
1:26:56 so
1:26:56 to
1:26:56 be
1:26:56 able
1:26:57 to
1:26:57 run
1:26:57 one
1:26:57 of
1:26:57 these
1:26:58 systems
1:26:58 we
1:26:58 typically
1:26:59 have
1:26:59 a
1:26:59 series
1:26:59 of
1:27:00 electrical
1:27:00 switches
1:27:01 that
1:27:01 turn
1:27:01 on
1:27:02 this
1:27:02 electrical
1:27:02 current
1:27:03 those
1:27:03 are
1:27:04 controlled
1:27:04 via
1:27:05 fiber
1:27:05 optic
1:27:05 because
1:27:05 the
1:27:06 wires
1:27:06 are
1:27:06 just
1:27:06 too
1:27:06 slow
1:27:07 and
1:27:07 so
1:27:07 fiber
1:27:08 optic
1:27:08 I
1:27:08 can
1:27:09 send
1:27:09 photons
1:27:10 at
1:27:10 the
1:27:10 speed
1:27:10 of
1:27:10 light
1:27:11 and
1:27:11 so
1:27:11 those
1:27:11 fiber
1:27:12 optics
1:27:12 can
1:27:12 respond
1:27:12 in
1:27:13 nanoseconds
1:27:14 and
1:27:14 then
1:27:14 I
1:27:15 trigger
1:27:15 those
1:27:15 fiber
1:27:16 optics
1:27:16 with
1:27:17 programmable
1:27:17 logic
1:27:18 that
1:27:18 we
1:27:18 programmed
1:27:18 in
1:27:19 the
1:27:19 hardware
1:27:20 assembly
1:27:20 language
1:27:21 as a
1:27:21 small
1:27:22 tangent
1:27:22 let me
1:27:23 do
1:27:23 a
1:27:24 call
1:27:24 to
1:27:25 action
1:27:26 out
1:27:26 there
1:27:26 I’m
1:27:27 still
1:27:27 looking
1:27:27 for
1:27:27 the
1:27:28 best
1:27:28 Fortran
1:27:28 programmer
1:27:29 in
1:27:29 the
1:27:29 world
1:27:29 if
1:27:30 people
1:27:31 to
1:27:31 talk
1:27:31 to
1:27:31 them
1:27:37 it’s
1:27:37 a
1:27:37 fascinating
1:27:37 programming
1:27:38 language
1:27:39 COBOLT
1:27:39 too
1:27:39 but
1:27:40 Fortran
1:27:40 even
1:27:40 more
1:27:40 so
1:27:41 it’s
1:27:41 one
1:27:41 of
1:27:41 the
1:27:41 great
1:27:42 sort
1:27:42 of
1:27:43 computational
1:27:44 numerical
1:27:44 programming
1:27:45 languages
1:27:47 anyway
1:27:47 what
1:27:49 in
1:27:49 terms
1:27:50 of
1:27:50 the
1:27:50 sensors
1:27:52 that
1:27:52 are
1:27:53 giving
1:27:53 you
1:27:54 some
1:27:54 kind
1:27:54 of
1:27:54 information
1:27:55 about
1:27:55 the
1:27:55 system
1:27:56 in
1:27:56 terms
1:27:56 of
1:27:57 the
1:27:58 diagnostics
1:27:59 like
1:27:59 what
1:27:59 kind
1:27:59 of
1:28:00 at
1:28:00 this
1:28:01 time
1:28:01 scale
1:28:02 what
1:28:02 can
1:28:02 you
1:28:03 collect
1:28:04 about
1:28:04 the
1:28:05 system
1:28:05 such
1:28:05 that
1:28:05 you
1:28:05 can
1:28:06 respond
1:28:07 at
1:28:07 the
1:28:08 similar
1:28:08 time
1:28:08 scale
1:28:10 so
1:28:10 I’m
1:28:10 also
1:28:10 calling
1:28:11 out
1:28:11 for
1:28:11 Fortran
1:28:12 programmers
1:28:12 so
1:28:14 for
1:28:14 different
1:28:14 reasons
1:28:15 yes
1:28:15 great
1:28:16 the
1:28:16 diagnostic
1:28:16 systems
1:28:17 is
1:28:17 really
1:28:17 one
1:28:17 of
1:28:17 the
1:28:17 keys
1:28:18 to
1:28:19 how
1:28:20 we
1:28:20 do
1:28:20 this
1:28:20 effectively
1:28:21 because
1:28:22 you
1:28:22 need to
1:28:22 be able
1:28:23 to tell
1:28:23 the
1:28:23 system
1:28:24 we’re
1:28:24 going
1:28:25 to
1:28:25 trigger
1:28:25 electrical
1:28:26 current
1:28:26 we’re
1:28:26 going
1:28:26 to
1:28:26 do
1:28:26 it
1:28:27 in
1:28:27 a
1:28:27 microsecond
1:28:28 and
1:28:28 we
1:28:28 need
1:28:28 to
1:28:29 know
1:28:29 if
1:28:29 it’s
1:28:29 working
1:28:29 right
1:28:30 and
1:28:30 so
1:28:31 in
1:28:32 one
1:28:32 of
1:28:36 electrical
1:28:36 switch
1:28:37 I
1:28:37 mentioned
1:28:37 100
1:28:38 mega
1:28:38 amps
1:28:39 100
1:28:39 million
1:28:40 amps
1:28:40 of
1:28:40 electrical
1:28:40 current
1:28:41 each
1:28:41 even
1:28:42 the
1:28:42 big
1:28:42 transistors
1:28:43 we use
1:28:43 can only
1:28:44 run
1:28:44 at
1:28:45 30,000
1:28:45 amps
1:28:46 so
1:28:46 you’ll
1:28:46 end
1:28:47 up
1:28:47 with
1:28:47 tens
1:28:47 of
1:28:47 thousands
1:28:48 of
1:28:50 parallel
1:28:51 electrical
1:28:51 switches
1:28:52 all
1:28:52 operating
1:28:53 in
1:28:53 harmony
1:28:53 together
1:28:54 and
1:28:54 so
1:28:55 you
1:28:55 need
1:28:55 to
1:28:55 be
1:28:56 build
1:28:56 a
1:28:56 system
1:28:56 and
1:28:56 this
1:28:56 is
1:28:57 what
1:28:57 we
1:28:57 spend
1:28:58 a lot
1:28:58 of
1:28:58 time
1:28:59 with
1:28:59 and
1:28:59 I
1:28:59 made
1:29:00 the
1:29:00 joke
1:29:00 that
1:29:01 in
1:29:01 a lot
1:29:01 of
1:29:01 ways
1:29:01 he
1:29:01 lands
1:29:01 an
1:29:02 electrical
1:29:02 engineering
1:29:03 company
1:29:04 to
1:29:05 be
1:29:05 able
1:29:05 to
1:29:06 both
1:29:06 program
1:29:07 control
1:29:08 and
1:29:08 then
1:29:09 detect
1:29:09 how
1:29:09 they’re
1:29:10 operating
1:29:11 and
1:29:11 do
1:29:11 it
1:29:12 all
1:29:12 very
1:29:12 fast
1:29:13 so
1:29:15 pre-program
1:29:16 the
1:29:16 operators
1:29:16 will
1:29:17 pre-program
1:29:17 a
1:29:17 sequence
1:29:19 usually
1:29:19 fed
1:29:20 from
1:29:20 a
1:29:20 numerical
1:29:21 simulation
1:29:21 of
1:29:22 expecting
1:29:22 how
1:29:23 the
1:29:23 fusion
1:29:23 system
1:29:24 will
1:29:24 perform
1:29:25 we
1:29:25 start
1:29:25 with
1:29:25 a
1:29:26 set
1:29:26 of
1:29:27 calculations
1:29:27 we
1:29:27 then
1:29:28 pre-program
1:29:28 all
1:29:28 of
1:29:29 these
1:29:29 electrical
1:29:29 switches
1:29:30 to
1:29:30 a
1:29:30 certain
1:29:30 sequence
1:29:31 to
1:29:31 be
1:29:31 able
1:29:31 to
1:29:31 inject
1:29:32 the
1:29:32 fuel
1:29:33 reverse
1:29:33 it
1:29:34 and
1:29:34 then
1:29:34 compress
1:29:35 it
1:29:35 up
1:29:35 to
1:29:36 fusion
1:29:36 conditions
1:29:37 and
1:29:38 then
1:29:38 we
1:29:38 trigger
1:29:39 that
1:29:39 and
1:29:40 then
1:29:40 let
1:29:40 it
1:29:41 go
1:29:41 and
1:29:42 measure
1:29:42 fusion
1:29:43 happening
1:29:44 but
1:29:44 during
1:29:45 that
1:29:45 process
1:29:45 have
1:29:46 to
1:29:46 be
1:29:46 real
1:29:47 time
1:29:48 recording
1:29:48 and
1:29:49 measuring
1:29:49 all
1:29:50 of
1:29:50 the
1:29:50 semiconductors
1:29:51 and
1:29:51 all
1:29:51 of
1:29:51 the
1:29:52 switching
1:29:52 in
1:29:52 the
1:29:52 system
1:29:53 I
1:29:53 don’t
1:29:53 talk
1:29:53 about
1:29:54 measuring
1:29:54 fusion
1:29:55 diagnostics
1:29:55 that’s
1:29:55 a
1:29:55 whole
1:29:55 other
1:29:56 thing
1:29:56 which
1:29:56 we
1:29:56 can
1:29:56 talk
1:29:57 about
1:29:57 this
1:29:57 is
1:29:57 just
1:29:58 on
1:29:58 the
1:29:58 electrical
1:29:59 control
1:29:59 side
1:30:00 and
1:30:00 so
1:30:00 some
1:30:01 of
1:30:01 the
1:30:01 pioneering
1:30:01 things
1:30:02 we’d
1:30:02 be
1:30:02 able
1:30:02 to
1:30:02 do
1:30:03 is
1:30:03 that
1:30:03 real
1:30:04 time
1:30:04 you’re
1:30:05 monitoring
1:30:05 all
1:30:05 of
1:30:05 these
1:30:06 switches
1:30:13 this
1:30:14 because
1:30:14 you
1:30:14 want
1:30:14 to
1:30:14 make
1:30:14 sure
1:30:14 that
1:30:14 all
1:30:15 the
1:30:15 sequences
1:30:15 are
1:30:16 operating
1:30:17 correctly
1:30:17 so
1:30:18 some
1:30:18 of
1:30:18 the
1:30:18 key
1:30:19 diagnostics
1:30:19 it’s
1:30:19 actually
1:30:20 pretty
1:30:20 amazing
1:30:21 that
1:30:22 even
1:30:22 early
1:30:22 in my
1:30:23 career
1:30:23 we
1:30:24 didn’t
1:30:24 have
1:30:24 a lot
1:30:24 of
1:30:24 fiber
1:30:25 optics
1:30:25 built
1:30:25 into
1:30:25 the
1:30:25 system
1:30:25 and
1:30:26 now
1:30:26 it’s
1:30:26 absolutely
1:30:27 essential
1:30:27 and
1:30:28 so
1:30:28 every
1:30:28 one
1:30:28 of
1:30:28 these
1:30:29 electrical
1:30:29 switches
1:30:30 has
1:30:30 fiber
1:30:30 optic
1:30:31 signals
1:30:31 going
1:30:31 into
1:30:31 it
1:30:32 and
1:30:32 fiber
1:30:32 optic
1:30:32 signals
1:30:33 coming
1:30:33 out
1:30:34 understanding
1:30:35 how
1:30:35 it’s
1:30:36 actually
1:30:36 operating
1:30:38 and
1:30:39 real
1:30:39 time
1:30:40 all
1:30:40 of
1:30:40 these
1:30:40 systems
1:30:40 are
1:30:40 being
1:30:41 monitored
1:30:41 by
1:30:41 more
1:30:42 fiber
1:30:42 optics
1:30:43 we
1:30:44 call
1:30:44 these
1:30:44 Rogowski
1:30:45 coils
1:30:45 but
1:30:45 they’re
1:30:46 electromagnetic
1:30:47 coils
1:30:48 that are
1:30:48 powered by
1:30:49 the electrical
1:30:49 current
1:30:49 themselves
1:30:50 so
1:30:50 as
1:30:50 these
1:30:50 switches
1:30:51 are
1:30:51 conducting
1:30:52 they
1:30:52 broadcast
1:30:52 a
1:30:53 signal
1:30:53 that
1:30:53 says
1:30:54 yes
1:30:54 I’m
1:30:54 electrically
1:30:55 conducting
1:30:55 an
1:30:56 optical
1:30:56 signal
1:30:56 fiber
1:30:57 optics
1:30:57 that
1:30:57 come
1:30:58 back
1:30:58 to
1:30:58 a
1:30:58 central
1:30:59 repository
1:30:59 where
1:30:59 we
1:31:00 detect
1:31:00 those
1:31:00 signals
1:31:01 and
1:31:02 so
1:31:02 real
1:31:02 time
1:31:02 we’re
1:31:03 monitoring
1:31:03 all
1:31:03 of
1:31:04 this
1:31:04 so
1:31:05 that
1:31:05 we
1:31:05 know
1:31:05 that
1:31:05 these
1:31:06 systems
1:31:06 are
1:31:06 behaving
1:31:06 and
1:31:07 operating
1:31:07 at
1:31:07 their
1:31:08 optimal
1:31:09 performance
1:31:10 what’s
1:31:10 the role
1:31:10 of
1:31:11 numerical
1:31:11 simulation
1:31:12 on all
1:31:12 of this
1:31:13 sort
1:31:13 of
1:31:15 I guess
1:31:15 ahead
1:31:16 of time
1:31:18 how much
1:31:19 numerical
1:31:19 simulation
1:31:19 are you
1:31:20 doing
1:31:20 to
1:31:21 understand
1:31:21 how
1:31:21 the
1:31:21 system
1:31:21 is
1:31:21 going
1:31:22 to
1:31:22 behave
1:31:22 how
1:31:23 the
1:31:23 different
1:31:23 parameters
1:31:24 all
1:31:24 come
1:31:24 together
1:31:25 the
1:31:26 electrical
1:31:27 system
1:31:27 and
1:31:27 how
1:31:27 that
1:31:27 all
1:31:28 maps
1:31:28 to
1:31:29 the
1:31:30 fusion
1:31:31 that’s
1:31:31 actually
1:31:32 generated
1:31:33 yeah
1:31:33 the
1:31:34 operation
1:31:34 of a
1:31:34 fusion
1:31:34 system
1:31:35 is
1:31:35 pretty
1:31:36 fascinating
1:31:36 because
1:31:37 all of
1:31:37 this
1:31:37 happens
1:31:38 on a
1:31:38 timescale
1:31:39 where
1:31:39 human
1:31:39 operators
1:31:40 cannot
1:31:41 really be
1:31:42 involved
1:31:44 and so
1:31:45 you have
1:31:46 to have
1:31:48 pre-programmed
1:31:49 the majority
1:31:49 we call them
1:31:50 shots
1:31:50 you’re going
1:31:50 to do a
1:31:51 shot
1:31:51 and when
1:31:52 you’re
1:31:52 operating
1:31:52 them
1:31:53 repetitively
1:31:53 and you’re
1:31:53 running
1:31:54 long
1:31:54 periods
1:31:54 of
1:31:54 times
1:31:55 you still
1:31:55 have
1:31:55 all
1:31:56 computers
1:31:56 doing
1:31:57 both
1:31:57 the
1:31:57 triggering
1:31:58 and the
1:31:59 measuring
1:32:00 of how
1:32:00 they’re
1:32:00 performing
1:32:02 real-time
1:32:02 the whole
1:32:02 time
1:32:04 and so
1:32:06 how this
1:32:06 typically
1:32:06 works
1:32:07 at least
1:32:07 in our
1:32:08 systems
1:32:09 is that
1:32:09 we will
1:32:09 design
1:32:10 a system
1:32:10 with
1:32:11 a
1:32:11 combination
1:32:12 of
1:32:12 with
1:32:13 some
1:32:13 numerical
1:32:14 simulation
1:32:14 tools
1:32:15 that we’ve
1:32:15 developed
1:32:16 based off
1:32:17 of decades
1:32:18 and decades
1:32:18 of amazing
1:32:19 government
1:32:19 programs
1:32:20 national
1:32:21 programs
1:32:21 developed
1:32:22 these
1:32:22 numerical
1:32:23 codes
1:32:23 we use
1:32:24 a kind
1:32:24 of a
1:32:24 code
1:32:24 called
1:32:25 an
1:32:25 MHD
1:32:27 magnetohydrodynamic
1:32:28 code
1:32:29 and that’s
1:32:30 for people
1:32:31 for the
1:32:31 engineers
1:32:32 out there
1:32:32 who are
1:32:33 used to
1:32:33 CFD
1:32:34 computational
1:32:35 fluid
1:32:35 dynamics
1:32:36 this is
1:32:37 very similar
1:32:37 you take
1:32:38 the same
1:32:38 sets of
1:32:39 equations
1:32:39 actually
1:32:40 and add
1:32:40 the
1:32:41 electromagnetic
1:32:41 equations
1:32:42 on top
1:32:42 of those
1:32:42 and so
1:32:43 you get
1:32:44 magnetohydrodynamic
1:32:45 are you
1:32:45 simulating
1:32:46 at the level
1:32:46 of a
1:32:46 particle
1:32:47 is there
1:32:47 some
1:32:48 quantum
1:32:48 mechanical
1:32:48 aspects
1:32:49 to this
1:32:49 also
1:32:50 how low
1:32:50 does it
1:32:50 go
1:32:51 we have
1:32:51 multiple
1:32:52 codes
1:32:52 at different
1:32:52 levels
1:32:53 because
1:32:54 one of
1:32:55 the main
1:32:55 computational
1:32:56 challenges
1:32:57 is
1:32:59 amazingly
1:33:00 even given
1:33:01 all that
1:33:01 we have
1:33:02 built
1:33:04 for fusion
1:33:04 systems
1:33:05 computers
1:33:05 are still
1:33:06 not fast
1:33:06 enough
1:33:06 to measure
1:33:07 to simulate
1:33:08 everything
1:33:09 and so
1:33:10 we have
1:33:11 a number
1:33:12 of codes
1:33:12 that we
1:33:12 use
1:33:14 one we
1:33:14 call
1:33:14 fluid
1:33:15 codes
1:33:16 where you
1:33:16 treat
1:33:17 the
1:33:18 ions
1:33:18 the
1:33:18 electrons
1:33:19 all these
1:33:19 fusion
1:33:20 particles
1:33:20 you
1:33:20 treat
1:33:20 them
1:33:21 as
1:33:21 as
1:33:22 fluids
1:33:22 as
1:33:23 gases
1:33:23 ideal
1:33:23 gas
1:33:24 law
1:33:24 with
1:33:25 electromagnetic
1:33:25 forces
1:33:27 in those
1:33:27 we can
1:33:28 simulate
1:33:29 not just
1:33:29 the fusion
1:33:30 fuel
1:33:30 which is
1:33:31 important
1:33:31 but all
1:33:31 of the
1:33:32 electrical
1:33:32 circuitry
1:33:33 we talked
1:33:33 about capacitors
1:33:35 and magnetic
1:33:35 coils
1:33:36 and the
1:33:36 electrical
1:33:37 current
1:33:37 and the
1:33:37 switches
1:33:38 we actually
1:33:38 simulate
1:33:38 the full
1:33:39 thing
1:33:39 starting
1:33:40 literally
1:33:40 with the
1:33:40 spice
1:33:41 model
1:33:42 more
1:33:42 of that
1:33:43 electrical
1:33:43 engineering
1:33:44 we start
1:33:44 with the
1:33:44 spice
1:33:44 model
1:33:45 and use
1:33:45 that to
1:33:46 drive
1:33:46 the
1:33:47 plasma
1:33:47 physics
1:33:47 model
1:33:48 and that’s
1:33:49 one level
1:33:49 of simulation
1:33:50 we use
1:33:50 that to do
1:33:51 design work
1:33:52 and then also
1:33:52 to try to
1:33:53 understand
1:33:53 how we think
1:33:54 the machine
1:33:54 will run
1:33:55 but then we
1:33:55 go one level
1:33:56 deeper
1:33:56 and we start
1:33:57 thinking about
1:33:57 particles
1:33:58 and we think
1:33:59 about the
1:33:59 ions
1:34:00 and we treat
1:34:00 the ions
1:34:01 as particles
1:34:01 and we look
1:34:02 at the
1:34:02 ion behavior
1:34:03 and for that
1:34:04 one the
1:34:04 computational
1:34:05 resources are
1:34:06 several orders
1:34:06 of magnitude
1:34:07 larger
1:34:09 luckily a lot
1:34:09 of the work
1:34:10 in GPUs
1:34:11 the AI
1:34:12 data center
1:34:12 work
1:34:13 is directly
1:34:13 applicable
1:34:14 to those
1:34:15 simulations
1:34:16 it’s been able
1:34:16 to speed up
1:34:16 our work
1:34:17 which is pretty
1:34:17 fascinating
1:34:19 that’s a whole
1:34:19 another tangent
1:34:20 we can go
1:34:20 down
1:34:22 those
1:34:24 hybrid codes
1:34:24 we call them
1:34:25 particle and
1:34:26 cell codes
1:34:27 now treat
1:34:28 the ions
1:34:29 as particles
1:34:29 and that
1:34:30 lets us
1:34:30 measure
1:34:31 and simulate
1:34:32 the behavior
1:34:32 I mentioned
1:34:33 the stability
1:34:34 criteria
1:34:34 S star
1:34:35 ovary
1:34:35 the top
1:34:36 behavior
1:34:37 that behavior
1:34:37 we now need
1:34:38 these more
1:34:38 advanced codes
1:34:39 to be able
1:34:39 to simulate
1:34:40 and those
1:34:40 are more
1:34:41 modern
1:34:41 those
1:34:42 we’ve only
1:34:42 been able
1:34:42 to apply
1:34:43 in practice
1:34:44 for the last
1:34:44 few years
1:34:45 actually
1:34:45 which is
1:34:45 pretty
1:34:46 fascinating
1:34:48 that the
1:34:48 old stability
1:34:49 rules were
1:34:50 built off
1:34:51 of testing
1:34:52 empirical
1:34:53 tests
1:34:53 where now
1:34:54 we can simulate
1:34:54 that and we
1:34:55 know why they
1:34:55 work and how
1:34:56 they work and
1:34:56 we can do
1:34:57 some predictions
1:34:57 on them
1:34:58 and so that’s
1:34:59 really fascinating
1:34:59 that we’ve been
1:35:00 able to push
1:35:01 those boundaries
1:35:01 and what are
1:35:02 the different
1:35:02 variables you’re
1:35:03 playing with
1:35:03 are you still
1:35:04 playing with
1:35:05 like topology
1:35:06 like what are
1:35:06 the different
1:35:07 variables in play
1:35:07 here
1:35:08 yeah each
1:35:09 of the
1:35:09 different
1:35:09 simulations
1:35:11 we analyze
1:35:12 and use it
1:35:12 to design
1:35:13 different parts
1:35:13 of the machine
1:35:15 so at the
1:35:16 MHD level
1:35:16 where we have
1:35:17 the spike
1:35:17 where we actually
1:35:18 have the circuit
1:35:19 model now
1:35:20 we our design
1:35:22 team uses this
1:35:23 to design the
1:35:24 circuitry where
1:35:25 we’re designing
1:35:25 which capacitor
1:35:26 to use which
1:35:27 switch to use
1:35:28 how many cables
1:35:29 to use literally
1:35:30 to that level
1:35:31 how big of a
1:35:31 cable to use
1:35:32 so as we’re
1:35:33 doing power
1:35:33 plant designs
1:35:34 right now
1:35:35 those are the
1:35:35 tools we’re
1:35:36 using today
1:35:36 every day
1:35:37 the team is
1:35:37 using
1:35:39 then you can
1:35:40 go one level
1:35:40 deeper and say
1:35:42 okay let’s use
1:35:43 these more advanced
1:35:44 computational tools
1:35:45 to about stability
1:35:46 to say okay
1:35:47 great but I
1:35:48 now know the
1:35:49 circuitry but let’s
1:35:50 look at the
1:35:50 magnetic field
1:35:51 topology how do
1:35:52 I design the
1:35:53 magnet the shape
1:35:53 of the magnet
1:35:55 exactly the timing
1:35:55 of the magnet
1:35:56 exactly I have
1:35:57 to trigger one
1:35:57 magnet and the
1:35:58 next magnet next
1:35:59 to it and the
1:36:00 next magnet next
1:36:01 to it how do I
1:36:02 have that shape
1:36:04 and that design
1:36:04 and so that’s
1:36:05 where you’re using
1:36:06 those more advanced
1:36:07 tools now those
1:36:08 unfortunately those
1:36:09 are still too
1:36:11 slow and so those
1:36:12 simulations may take
1:36:13 a day or two to
1:36:15 run and so a data
1:36:16 an operator right
1:36:17 now does a lot of
1:36:18 simulations ahead of
1:36:19 time then collects
1:36:21 data through their
1:36:22 their operations of
1:36:23 the machines making
1:36:24 these field reverse
1:36:25 configurations going
1:36:26 through parameter
1:36:27 sweeps and then
1:36:29 the simulation team
1:36:29 then goes back and
1:36:30 looks at that data
1:36:31 and compares it
1:36:32 with simulations
1:36:33 I’m really excited
1:36:34 about some of the
1:36:35 things we’re seeing
1:36:35 in artificial
1:36:36 intelligence and
1:36:37 reinforced learning
1:36:38 to be able to
1:36:39 speed up that
1:36:41 process and so
1:36:42 we’re watching and
1:36:43 starting to work on
1:36:44 that now of can
1:36:45 we now rather than
1:36:46 using it where we
1:36:47 use it today where
1:36:49 we do a simulation
1:36:50 to design a machine
1:36:52 or a test run the
1:36:53 test and then over
1:36:54 the next couple of
1:36:55 days compare the
1:36:56 testing with the
1:36:57 simulation and use
1:36:57 that to inform what
1:36:58 we’re going to run
1:36:59 for the next set of
1:37:00 tests but in fact
1:37:01 do it more real
1:37:02 time where you’re
1:37:03 now an operator can
1:37:04 pull up what the
1:37:06 AI or what the
1:37:07 machine learning would
1:37:07 have predicted it
1:37:09 should have done and
1:37:10 then use that to
1:37:10 understand what’s
1:37:11 happening in in the
1:37:13 actual programs and
1:37:14 the actual generators
1:37:15 themselves all right
1:37:16 so there’s a million
1:37:17 questions there so
1:37:20 first of all how much
1:37:20 understanding do we
1:37:21 have about how many
1:37:23 collisions happen can
1:37:23 we go to the fusion
1:37:26 how many collisions
1:37:28 are there and how
1:37:29 does that map to the
1:37:32 electricity and maybe
1:37:33 can you just even
1:37:34 speak to the directly
1:37:34 mapping to the
1:37:35 electricity which is
1:37:36 one of the
1:37:37 differences between
1:37:39 this approach and the
1:37:40 Tuckermack approach
1:37:41 so how much fusion do
1:37:42 you get out in these
1:37:43 systems and that’s
1:37:46 really the right key
1:37:47 question so we already
1:37:48 talked about beta
1:37:50 that b squared the
1:37:52 magnetic pressure is
1:37:54 equal to n k t and
1:37:56 being the density t
1:37:58 being temperature and
1:37:58 then we talked about
1:38:00 fusion where your
1:38:01 goal for fusion is to
1:38:02 get particles hot
1:38:04 high temperature get
1:38:05 enough of them
1:38:07 together density and
1:38:07 then you want to get
1:38:08 them together long
1:38:10 enough we call that
1:38:12 tau so n t and tau
1:38:13 long enough that
1:38:15 fusion happens and a
1:38:16 lot of fusion happens
1:38:17 more than any of the
1:38:18 loss rates that are
1:38:19 happening in t tau
1:38:21 and in beta with
1:38:22 b squared you know
1:38:23 already two of those
1:38:24 parameters n and t
1:38:26 are equal and so that
1:38:27 tells you right away the
1:38:28 goal is to maximize
1:38:29 magnetic field absolutely
1:38:31 maximize magnetic field
1:38:32 and most folks in
1:38:33 magnetic fusion whether
1:38:35 it’s a tokamak or it’s
1:38:35 a theta pinch or it’s an
1:38:37 FRC are attempting to
1:38:38 do that maximize the
1:38:39 magnetic field so we’re
1:38:40 all pushing to that
1:38:42 what’s really nice in
1:38:44 pulse systems is that we
1:38:45 know how to do that in
1:38:48 fact in a pulse system
1:38:50 researchers in pulsed
1:38:51 magnetic fields have
1:38:52 demonstrated over a
1:38:53 hundred tesla magnetic
1:38:55 fields in pulsed
1:38:56 magnets that’s much
1:38:57 higher than you can get
1:39:00 in a steady magnet or
1:39:01 what’s been demonstrated
1:39:02 so far just a
1:39:03 clarification question
1:39:05 so maximizing magnetic
1:39:06 field is about the n and
1:39:08 the t the beta so we’re
1:39:09 not talking about tau
1:39:10 yet not yet but we need
1:39:11 to because that’s really
1:39:14 important and so we can
1:39:15 even talk even a little
1:39:16 bit further about how
1:39:18 fusion scales and so in
1:39:20 fusion the hotter you
1:39:21 get the fuel the more
1:39:24 fusion you get and we
1:39:25 know that by increasing
1:39:26 the magnetic field b
1:39:28 squared is in t you
1:39:29 increase density and
1:39:30 temperature together more
1:39:31 density more temperatures
1:39:32 more fusion plus more
1:39:33 temperatures even more
1:39:34 fusion and so what we
1:39:36 see is that in our in
1:39:37 the in these types of
1:39:40 systems a scaling very
1:39:41 clearly a magnetic field
1:39:44 to the 3.75 power or
1:39:46 even in a lot of a lot
1:39:47 of demonstrations 3.77
1:39:49 that that’s specific
1:39:51 scaling that’s a very
1:39:52 strong scaling of fusion
1:39:55 power output and fusion
1:39:56 reactions and so that
1:39:57 tells you you want to go
1:39:58 to as maximum magnetic
1:39:59 field as you can pulse
1:40:00 systems are really
1:40:01 powerful pulse systems
1:40:02 have showed when you do
1:40:03 pulse magnetic fields
1:40:04 compared to a steady
1:40:06 magnetic field researchers
1:40:07 have shown over a hundred
1:40:09 tesla magnetic fields
1:40:11 where in a steady system
1:40:12 people have showed in
1:40:13 the 20 maybe high 20
1:40:15 tesla systems and if
1:40:17 it’s b to the 3.77 power
1:40:19 already you can see
1:40:20 massive fusion power
1:40:22 outputs by doing a
1:40:23 pulsed system okay got
1:40:25 it so we we maximize in
1:40:26 the magnetic field so
1:40:28 that’s going a number go
1:40:30 up super up how do you
1:40:31 get the duration the
1:40:33 tau but then i said
1:40:34 pulsed and pulse already
1:40:36 implies shorter tau yes
1:40:38 and so that is in the
1:40:39 fusion field the name of
1:40:41 the game folks will will
1:40:43 have a very uh inertial
1:40:44 fusion will have a
1:40:46 nanosecond tau very short
1:40:48 but then very high
1:40:49 pressure they don’t have
1:40:50 magnetic fields but very
1:40:51 high pressure um and
1:40:54 then in stellarators and
1:40:55 tokamaks your goal is
1:40:58 very long tau but you’ll
1:40:59 have much lower density
1:41:01 and and and you can’t
1:41:02 really go too much in
1:41:03 temperature but they’ll
1:41:04 have much lower density
1:41:06 and so where we live in the
1:41:08 pulsed magnetic or the
1:41:09 magneto inertial fusion is in
1:41:11 the middle um is in
1:41:12 extremely high magnetic
1:41:13 fields increasing pressure
1:41:15 as much as you can and
1:41:16 then keeping them around
1:41:18 long enough and so that
1:41:19 gets to the tau that gets
1:41:21 to that energy confinement
1:41:23 lifetime and also it gets
1:41:25 to stability and so this is
1:41:26 the thing that this field
1:41:28 reverse configuration which
1:41:29 has showed that we can um
1:41:31 build we that these
1:41:32 plasmas can last for
1:41:34 hundreds or thousands of
1:41:37 times the basic theory has
1:41:39 shown that now you can have
1:41:40 long enough lifetimes so
1:41:41 what that means is in a
1:41:42 in a practical fusion
1:41:44 system uh that there are
1:41:45 lifetimes of these high
1:41:47 beta pulse systems between
1:41:49 100 microseconds and a few
1:41:51 milliseconds thousands of a
1:41:53 second and you hold on to
1:41:54 it for a few thousandths of a
1:41:56 second you do fusion and
1:41:58 then you exhaust it and so the
1:42:01 whole process in this is we
1:42:04 start with uh a magnetic field
1:42:06 that fills the full chamber
1:42:10 you then inject fusion fuel
1:42:12 you ionize it superheating it
1:42:15 now to a nice cold one million
1:42:17 degrees but hot enough that you
1:42:19 have charged particles you have
1:42:23 plasmas you can then start
1:42:25 increasing the magnetic field you
1:42:26 form an f a field reverse
1:42:28 configuration and then rapidly
1:42:29 increase the magnetic field
1:42:31 further increasing from one
1:42:35 to five to ten twenty to
1:42:37 even higher magnetic fields
1:42:39 and as you do that the plasma
1:42:42 heats it you compress it
1:42:44 increasing the field and
1:42:45 pressure fusion is now
1:42:47 happening new charged particles
1:42:49 are being born inside this
1:42:50 system with a tremendous
1:42:52 amount of heat and energy but
1:42:55 in charged particles and this
1:42:57 is where the beta really really
1:43:00 works in in in your advantage is
1:43:03 that just like magnetic pressure
1:43:06 on the outside magnetic pressure
1:43:10 is in kt compresses the fuel and
1:43:11 increasing pressure and
1:43:13 temperature when the pressure and
1:43:14 temperature of the plasma increase
1:43:17 in kt increases it pushes back on
1:43:19 the magnetic field increasing the
1:43:22 magnetic field on the outside of the
1:43:24 plasma and what that does is
1:43:25 magnetic field is electromagnetic
1:43:27 magnetic current and current running in a
1:43:29 wire and what that does is pushes
1:43:31 current back in the wire and so the
1:43:34 plasma itself now pushes back on the
1:43:35 magnetic field pushing electrical
1:43:38 current out of the system and
1:43:40 recharging the capacitors where we
1:43:42 started this whole process all in a
1:43:45 self-organizing way so i think it’s
1:43:47 good to sort of clarify how fusion
1:43:49 usually generates energy where this
1:43:53 intermediate step of heating up water
1:43:54 then the steam is the thing that leads
1:43:57 to electricity and then of course the
1:44:00 frc method that you use leads directly
1:44:02 to electricity i was wondering if you
1:44:04 could describe sort of the difference
1:44:04 between those two
1:44:10 yeah i like the analogy of the match in
1:44:12 the campfire and i hear that a lot in
1:44:16 fusion where um a lot of what steady
1:44:18 fusion think a stellarator or tokamak is
1:44:20 attempting to do is take a little bit of
1:44:25 fuel that match and then add heat um to
1:44:28 ignite that match and then put it with
1:44:30 enough fuel and in the right conditions
1:44:33 and hold on to it for a long time that it
1:44:35 grows into a campfire even if you’re
1:44:36 doing if they do a good job of bonfires
1:44:38 creating a tremendous amount of of energy
1:44:41 in that steady system burning fuel in
1:44:43 the same place generating some ash
1:44:46 generating a lot of heat in that
1:44:48 reaction um and in and in a traditional
1:44:51 in a in a tokamak or a stellarator that’s a
1:44:53 lot of what you’re doing is you’re you’re
1:44:55 holding on to the heat as much as possible
1:44:59 to keep that reaction going um and in that
1:45:02 the optimal fuel is called deuterium and
1:45:04 tritium where you have deuterium is a
1:45:06 heavy isotope of hydrogen where you have
1:45:09 an extra neutron and tritium is a very rare
1:45:12 form of hydrogen um that’s an unstable form
1:45:14 it’s it’s so rare it’s hard to get where it
1:45:17 has two neutrons and a proton and when you
1:45:20 fuse those together at hot very high
1:45:22 temperatures uh at very at very high
1:45:24 densities or high enough densities and very
1:45:27 high temperatures um they make helium which
1:45:30 is a charged particle which stays inside the
1:45:34 campfire inside the tokamak um continuing
1:45:36 to heat it and stoke the flames and it makes
1:45:39 a neutron which leaves the system because
1:45:42 it’s uncharged it has no charge and in that
1:45:43 system it’s actually ideal it’s really
1:45:46 great because in a campfire you’re have this
1:45:48 reaction going and you want to get the energy
1:45:50 out of it you want to use it and you don’t
1:45:52 want to just burn up all the fuel and do
1:45:54 nothing that’s not really valuable what’s
1:45:55 really valuable is to stand next to the
1:45:58 campfire and get the heat get what comes
1:46:00 off of it um and then use that in a in a
1:46:04 traditional fusion system to boil water to
1:46:07 heat the water and then at 30 35 percent
1:46:09 efficiency then convert that through a steam
1:46:12 turbine into a cooling tower and cool off the
1:46:15 fuel and extract electricity and we know steam
1:46:19 turbines coal plants do this um nuclear vision
1:46:21 reactors do this um and so we know how to do
1:46:23 that and and and that’s the traditional way of
1:46:28 doing it but what i think there’s other ways to
1:46:31 do it with a pulsed magnetic system there’s a one
1:46:36 more thing you get to do because you have this high
1:46:38 beta where there’s an electric field and
1:46:42 electromagnetic force that’s now compressing the
1:46:45 fusion fuel it’s increasing in temperature it’s
1:46:47 getting hotter it’s increasing in temperature
1:46:49 density fusion is happening new fusion particles
1:46:52 are being born and those particles are not just
1:46:54 stoking the flame they’re not just holding on
1:46:56 the campfire like in the tokamak but they’re
1:46:58 doing another thing which is really powerful which
1:47:00 is they’re pushing back on the magnetic field
1:47:03 they’re applying a pressure that pressure induces a
1:47:06 current we can extract that electrical current but
1:47:08 then but it takes you into another direction so
1:47:10 your analogy of the the campfire now breaks down
1:47:13 because now the campfire is expanding it’s pushing
1:47:15 back on something and so now it’s the analogy of the
1:47:18 piston engine as you move from the match the
1:47:22 campfire to now pistons and so you use in a piston
1:47:26 engine you use the motion of the piston the pressure on
1:47:29 it and the motion of it to do something useful and in a
1:47:33 piston engine it’s to turn a crankshaft and and and uh run
1:47:39 uh a turn a crankshaft and run wheels or maybe even a piston
1:47:41 engine to turn a crankshaft and run a generator and make
1:47:44 electricity and in fact you can do it pretty high efficiency
1:47:50 and a generator and using that method um using the expansion of
1:47:53 that piston and what we do is use the expansion of the magnetic
1:47:57 field to extract that electricity and we believe you can do it much much
1:48:01 higher efficiencies in fact um there’s been theoretical papers that
1:48:05 show not 30 to 35 percent efficiency like a steam turbine can do
1:48:10 but 80 percent efficiency 85 percent efficiency extract much more of the
1:48:15 energy of the fuel in that process can you actually just take a tiny
1:48:21 tangent on the word efficiency here so yeah so so you said 30 percent so
1:48:25 it’s inefficient and that efficiency measure is how much of the energy is
1:48:29 actually converted to electricity that measure is how much of the thermal
1:48:35 energy that gets outside of the system is then converted into electricity which is
1:48:39 the thing we care about we want we’re not in this to make fusion we’re in this
1:48:43 to make electricity and we’re using fusion to make electricity and so from from my
1:48:46 point of view that should be the focus is how do we get to that so that’s the
1:48:52 efficiency of that thermal energy that makes it out to electricity what it is not a
1:48:55 measure of how much energy you put into the system and what happens to that
1:49:01 um in terms of you started this campfire with a blowtorch what about all that blowtorch
1:49:05 energy what are you getting for that and so i think that’s something that high beta
1:49:12 is one more side benefit that it turns out is actually maybe the tail that wags the dog
1:49:17 is that not only do you at high efficiency get out any of the new fusion energy which is great
1:49:21 because that’s what you want make electricity from fusion but you also get to recover all
1:49:26 of that magnetic energy you put back into it and that’s the really powerful one and that’s
1:49:31 something that folks have demonstrated over 95 percent efficiency that you can put electricity
1:49:38 into fusion and then get that electricity back out and 95 percent efficiency plus some very high
1:49:43 efficiency maybe 80 percent maybe higher of all the fusion product electricity too so now you’re just
1:49:48 making a tremendous amount of electricity in one of these systems and that has all kinds of
1:49:54 performance and engineering benefits that are really powerful but also pushes you to other fuels
1:50:01 so we talked about how deuterium and tritium fuels make this neutron which leaves the system to boil water
1:50:07 to run steam turbines but it doesn’t push back on the magnetic field so in one of these high beta
1:50:13 systems it’s actually not a great fuel at all and so the other fuels that are out there are even more
1:50:18 interesting and one of the candidate fuels that’s really interesting is called deuterium and helium
1:50:24 three now we talked about deuterium heavy heavy hydrogen well helium three uh the nucleus is also
1:50:31 called a helium that’s why we named the company that uh is light helium which is a normal helium which is what
1:50:38 you find in a balloon it’s two protons two neutrons it’s very stable um uh and found found found commonly
1:50:46 helium three is also stable um but it’s not found commonly fortunately it’s lightweight so it it leaves
1:50:50 it literally leaves the atmosphere and goes into space um so we don’t have a lot of it here on earth
1:50:55 uh and so you have to make it or you have to go into space and there’s a whole nother thing about how do
1:50:59 where do you get it you get it from the moon jupiter has it turns out massive amounts of helium
1:51:06 and so but when you take deuterium and helium three and you fuse those together you also get
1:51:12 that helium particle that alpha particle that we call that infusion but instead of the neutron you get a
1:51:19 proton and that proton is a charged particle it’s a helium hydrogen nucleus that proton is now trapped in
1:51:25 the magnetic field pushes back and you can extract that electricity now there’s some prices to be paid for
1:51:31 this helium three fuel but for a high beta system like a pulsed magnetic fusion system
1:51:40 that’s really the ideal fuel when you say prices uh where what is the yeah is there like technical
1:51:46 costs or what what what are the prices what shape do the prices take all kinds of shapes um a physics
1:51:50 and engineering a technical and a business cost um and so let’s let’s dive in
1:51:58 great great yeah so we talked about how helium three is so from the fusion physics point of view
1:52:03 we talked about 100 million degrees that’s the temperature that deuterium and tritium fusion
1:52:10 works really well and that’s the temperature that traditional fusion folks have really focused on
1:52:15 getting to that’s the threshold when you get to 100 million degrees you’re at the operating point of
1:52:22 fusion and you know it works um colloquially anyway um helium three requires higher temperatures that’s
1:52:28 not enough yes fusion happens for helium deuterium and helium three at 100 million degrees but it’s
1:52:34 not its optimal temperature and in fact in a high beta system the optimal temperature is higher 200 even
1:52:39 sometimes 300 million degrees so you have to get to even higher temperatures temperatures hard and so you
1:52:44 have to push to even higher temperatures than you had before and so that’s that’s one of the downsides
1:52:52 um the other downside can be as you get to those higher temperatures we talked about b squared is in t
1:52:59 b squared is density times temperature well for a given magnetic field density and temperature are now
1:53:07 inverse so as i increase temperature density decreases and so now you have an issue of you may have less
1:53:12 particles to do fusion which means your fusion system has to get bigger than it was before
1:53:19 so for the same reaction rates a helium three system compared to deuterium tritium has to operate
1:53:27 at higher temperature and be bigger however the flip side is is if you can now recover energy at 80 at
1:53:34 three times the energy efficiency 30 at 80 some percent versus 30 some percent and recover all your input
1:53:40 energy then now it’s actually about the same size because for the same electricity output not energy
1:53:44 it’s not energy that we’re worried about it’s electricity we’re worried about electricity output
1:53:50 now you can actually build systems of similar size and similar energy only they’re now at this much
1:53:55 higher efficiency got it what can you say more about size what are we talking about here like what
1:54:00 why is size an important constraint and that gets to one of the other price that gets to money so
1:54:08 our goal is we want to build clean low cost electricity and get it out in the world but that means it needs
1:54:14 to be low cost that’s fundamental if it’s really expensive no one’s going to buy it and while it can
1:54:22 be clean it’s not going to be deployed and so that is always has to be a part and uh of why what the
1:54:29 promise of fusion is that can be low cost um so how do we know how much fusion systems cost it’s a really
1:54:36 great question uh and a lot of it comes down to fundamental size that you have to just build things
1:54:41 and so there’s some really first principles cost engineering you can do around power plants for
1:54:48 fundamentally what do they cost how much concrete went into it fundamentally how big is it um and that
1:54:56 and that if you’re doing a good job of manufacturing the you are your goal is to manufacture a product
1:55:03 for as low of cost as you can so you can sell it for us for as low price as you can it asymptotes to
1:55:09 the material cost because you never get cheaper than that so it’s literally in some sense some sort of
1:55:16 first principle sense is how much concrete it goes into into building the power plant how much concrete
1:55:22 how much concrete how much steel how much um copper and aluminum different materials cost different
1:55:29 amount but the end of the day the cheapest function is the least amount of materials wow okay and so
1:55:34 that’s we think a lot about that and how we can make these systems smaller so they can be developed at
1:55:39 lower cost now there’s a flip side you still need to produce electricity so if you make them really
1:55:43 small and they don’t produce electricity and there is some minimum size to fusion and that’s really
1:55:49 important fusion scientists and engineers don’t see you’d ever have a uh fusion generator on the back
1:55:55 of your delorean for instance the physics doesn’t let that one happen at least physics is as we’ve
1:56:00 understood for the last you know 100 or 200 years well there’s a lot of really interesting business
1:56:08 questions here because you’re basically at the cutting edge of science of technology of physics of
1:56:17 engineering uh trying to basically innovate into the future uh rapidly how do you uh how do you do that
1:56:24 because the r&d here the research alone is a lot of money so what’s well i mean what can you say
1:56:30 about that like how to be bold and fearless and pushing this technology into the future when so much
1:56:37 is unknown and it costs so much to just do the research so i think about this in a couple of ways
1:56:39 one
1:56:51 the need um we look to the world and we know the world needs clean low cost
1:57:00 safe electricity and just to meet our needs today and not to even talk about the needs of tomorrow
1:57:08 or the needs of ai or any of or the growth that’s probably coming just to me today and so but fundamental
1:57:15 to that is it has to be a product that people will buy it has to be a generator that is making that
1:57:23 electricity at low cost and it’s got to be soon and so so a lot of what i think about is how do we do
1:57:30 those two things together um and and a lot of that is scale and and a lot of that is thinking about and
1:57:34 not big scale in fact it’s the opposite of that it’s small scale it’s how do you build a product that’s
1:57:42 mass producible that you can build quickly and learn quickly and what i’ve found in my career at this
1:57:50 is that they’re actually the same thing and that the faster you can build a thing the faster you can
1:57:57 learn if that thing works the the faster you can now you can actually iterate on that and build the next
1:58:07 thing and so what what i have spent my career building is teams of humans and a company that are builders
1:58:14 that can build high technology things quickly that if you want to do r and d you don’t want
1:58:21 large-scale multinational complex huge systems you want to actually take the smallest thing you can
1:58:26 build that that accomplishes the mission and infusion there is a minimum size but accomplishes the mission
1:58:32 and then build it quickly and build whole teams around building it quickly and incentivize folks to move
1:58:39 quickly iterate and learn um and kind of the irony i think of one of the things that i’ve discovered
1:58:46 is that by focusing on manufacturing by focusing on low cost very rapid manufacturing you actually get
1:58:51 to do science faster and and at the beginning of my career i would never have guessed that i would
1:58:57 have thought the way to do science is to make a giant demonstration particle accelerator somewhere
1:59:05 uh to make a large complex science experiment is the best way to do science and what i’ve found
1:59:12 is actually small iterative just building as fast as possible gets you there faster because you can
1:59:17 learn you can build you can iterate you can solve the problems and then you can learn the fundamental
1:59:26 physics learn the scaling learn the frc and the b to the 3.77 power and learn those things way sooner
1:59:31 than if you would have just started on one mega project and then waited decades to get to the
1:59:38 answer there’s a profound truth in that something about the constraints of pushing for the simple for
1:59:44 the low cost for the manufacturable that that pushes everything pushes the science pushes the innovation
1:59:49 in fact you should maybe explain that you’re i believe on the seventh prototype like this is insane
1:59:57 the rate of innovation here is insane um can you maybe speak to all the different prototypes you went
2:00:03 through what it took to just iterate rapidly and and maybe it’d be really interesting for people
2:00:10 like what can you say about the teams that’s required uh to make that happen like what kind of people
2:00:16 are required to make that happen at that fast rate and we’re not we’re not talking about like software
2:00:23 here we’re talking about everything the full stack all the way down to the physics at a hundred million
2:00:30 degrees at speeds of one million miles per hour i mean it’s insane anyway so what uh how do you
2:00:37 iterate the prototypes and what kind of teams make it happen so at helion we’ve we’ve built uh seven
2:00:45 systems um the first six were a series of prototypes that we built end to end that were focused on
2:00:53 scaling the process of making these field reverse configurations compressing them to thermonuclear
2:00:58 fusion conditions and demonstrating that you can do fusion and then increasing the scale increasing the
2:01:03 temperature and the energy the very first ones were named after beer actually the most successful was the
2:01:11 inductive plasmoid accelerator the ipa and it was the first system that showed that the team could make
2:01:18 these frcs and hold on to them and understand some of the stability criteria the heating criteria
2:01:25 and then we started increasing the field now okay great we can hold on to one of these frcs we know
2:01:30 how long and how to make them but now can we squeeze on them and start doing fusion um increasing in
2:01:36 pressure and temperature what we noticed is is um you know machine after machine we always used
2:01:43 starbucks when we were in redmond at the time redmond washington and uh starbucks cups sitting on top of
2:01:48 the machine as the this is the scale um uh they were too small to have a human really in the picture all
2:01:56 the time so the starbucks cup was enough and uh and so then we switched to tall grande venti um and then
2:02:03 the biggest trenta was the biggest system that came online in 2020 that was a system that showed
2:02:09 a hundred million degrees and was the first system that did deuterium and helium-3 fusion in fact as far
2:02:15 as we know the only bulk deuterium helium-3 fusion uh that has been done and also showed the hundred
2:02:22 million degree fusion temperatures from an frc and throughout that time the earliest work was
2:02:28 government funded government grants sbirs and other type of government grants and and actually the team
2:02:35 involved uh myself and the rest of the founding team were really good at winning government programs
2:02:40 doing fundamental science but moving very quickly and there’s a lot of ways to think about how to
2:02:45 iterate and how to build quickly i want to talk about the teams first and then we can talk about some
2:02:52 the technology pieces to do that um but a lot of it is is thinking about if your goal is to get the
2:02:58 product electricity out to the world as soon as possible then you should be looking at everything
2:03:05 you do towards that lens and so that’s thinking about the materials you choose you want to at every turn
2:03:12 choose commonly available materials if you have to wait for supply chain for a ultra rare material it’s
2:03:16 going to take you a lot more time and so do everything you can to engineer a system that uses
2:03:22 simple aluminum alloys simple copper up alloys um and if you have to use tungsten and maybe you have
2:03:25 to use tungsten in some of your systems which is a hard to find alloy make sure you’re using commonly
2:03:32 available thicknesses of tungsten sheet you know those kinds of engineering uh analyses and thought
2:03:39 processes at every step um and and that’s how we built these systems from ipa to venti up to trenta
2:03:46 was always looking at how do we build systems that are easy to build and mass produced because this is
2:03:52 the other thing that i don’t know that early in my career i’d have predicted is that um by making a
2:03:57 hundred of a thing you can actually make it faster than if you go make one of a thing yeah and that
2:04:04 because when you look at our fusion systems we talked about these big magnets and you could build one
2:04:10 giant big complex hard to make magnet that’s heavy and you have to move it around with a crane and
2:04:18 requires very complex machining by ultra rare cncs or you could then make that out of a composite of
2:04:25 100 smaller magnets each of those magnets now can be made on a simple machine each of these magnets can
2:04:32 be picked up by a human they’re light enough they can be made and manufactured and mass produced and and
2:04:37 that’s what we did and that was our whole design philosophy on these machines is every at every turn
2:04:48 how do we go faster um a classic one that uh still to this day i push the team on is again thinking about
2:04:57 how do you move fast ebay we buy and and uh i don’t know that i’ve ever said this public oh boy
2:05:03 there we go this is great we spend a lot of time on ebay you gotta you gotta find a way you gotta
2:05:08 move and here’s an example uh we use a vacuum pump because in these systems you got to pull out all the
2:05:14 air so we use a vacuum pump called a turbo molecular vacuum pump this is a commodity this is used in a
2:05:19 variety of particle accelerators scientific applications there are many of them they’re robust
2:05:25 they last a long time they also have a very small supply chain so if you want to buy a brand new
2:05:31 turbo molecular pump you can and you might wait nine months from the manufacturer to go make one for you
2:05:37 and deliver it for you but i can go today and get the same model that was made 10 years ago and get it on
2:05:43 ebay today right now however it might not work like you don’t know yet there’s some you know how well it
2:05:48 works or how clean it is or any of those things and so what we do is you don’t go to ebay to save money
2:05:55 it does it’s cheaper and that’s great but you can also go and get three of those turbo pumps that are
2:06:00 sitting on in ebay right now bring those in-house test them maybe only one of them meets the specifications
2:06:06 you need but guess what you just got a pump in two weeks instead of nine months yeah and you got it
2:06:12 it’s in the door and it’s operational and it’s running and you’re moving see i love this that i
2:06:16 love that kind of stuff um one of the only people i’ve really seen do that is elon
2:06:23 you know he he put together that cluster in memphis in in a matter of weeks which isn’t
2:06:28 nothing like that has ever been done before and this this ebay
2:06:33 way is is really the kind of thing that’s required to make that happen
2:06:38 as you shortcut the the supply chain and everywhere you can you still have to deliver
2:06:45 the working product right that is cannot sacrifice the quality but do you really need the shiny brand
2:06:50 new one when when the used one is going to do the job um and we think about that across the board
2:06:57 do we take the best plasma diagnostic the most sophisticated plasma diagnostic in the world
2:07:04 that that’s three percent um that has an accuracy of within three percent and it’s going to take me
2:07:10 three years and maybe a few million dollars to go build or do i take a technology from 10 years ago
2:07:14 that’s five percent accurate that’s good enough that i can go build in a month
2:07:21 and and the answer for at for us for heliana for the team that we put together is that scrappy i
2:07:24 want to just solve the problem i don’t need necessarily the best solution
2:07:31 but let’s go let’s go go make it happen and so that’s something that we routinely do i think uh
2:07:36 sometimes i have challenges with my my academic colleagues on this is that we have a difference
2:07:39 opinion because that three percent well that’s way better than five percent so shouldn’t you do that
2:07:44 you’ll know your data better but five percent is good enough now fifty percent would not be good enough
2:07:50 and so that that technology wouldn’t have been applicable and so finding that middle ground
2:07:55 is is a hard thing to do um and never compromising on the quality and the safety like it’s got to work
2:08:03 and it’s got to be safe um but can you still go fast but in general just having a culture of pushing
2:08:09 uh the rate of uh iterations here and building the team that wants to go build things like
2:08:16 everyone at helion uh at least the vast majority of helion we hire engineers scientists and technicians
2:08:22 and machinists are hands-on builders the company at helion is very weird for a fusion company
2:08:29 today we are 50 technicians not scientists nice and and we have a ton of scientists because the science
2:08:37 is critically important too but they’re supported by a huge manufacturing company um and our goal is to
2:08:42 build as fast as possible some of the other things we try to do there vertically integrate and this is
2:08:47 to to to your point on elon musk like this is one of the things he’s focused on at his companies has been
2:08:54 how do you bring it in side the critical things that are going to drive timelines the things you can’t
2:08:59 just go buy as a commodity product and and get it here soon and make sure that you can go build those
2:09:07 fast and so we’ve done now a number of key vertical menu integrated manufacturing um lines at helion i think
2:09:12 we may be the only fusion company with a conveyor belt actually our second one just came online now where
2:09:20 we have uh so we have literally our production line manufacturing power supplies at helion um so that we can move
2:09:26 at maximum velocity rather than finding an external consultant or an external supplier to go do those
2:09:33 uh well i love it builder first company and you’re also thinking about manufacturing throughout all of this
2:09:39 i’m looking at the photo of trenta it’s beautiful and you can actually i can point out uh on this picture
2:09:48 one perfect example of what i’m talking about so uh on the end is a green structure green fiberglass this
2:09:54 is called g10 um actually ironically one of the main structural elements we use is this g10 fiberglass
2:10:00 material it’s the same thing that’s in pcb boards it’s the same substrate that’s in every every circuit
2:10:06 board and so we know it’s strong it’s good with electricity um only we get big pieces of it and machine it
2:10:12 but even in the end you can see the bolts halfway through um there’s nine bolts in the middle there
2:10:19 the standard piece of g10 was not big enough to fit the end of the machine and so we could have had one
2:10:26 custom manufacturer manufacturer a brand new piece of a custom size build a new mold and a new machine it
2:10:30 would have taken i don’t remember anymore now but probably on the order of usually these are about six
2:10:37 to 12 months or i could go to a supplier off the shelf have that delivered in a week and now machine
2:10:44 it with all the bolts in between and then in house have the g10 uh machine shop that can now machine the
2:10:50 bolt holes to actually bolt those pieces together and so that’s that took extra engineering and having
2:10:55 really clever and brilliant mechanical and structural engineers to figure out how to do that and still meet
2:11:01 the needs of the fusion system and but that that’s what we try to that’s the kinds of teams who we try
2:11:08 to build at helion is folks that want to really get their hands dirty get hands on build things and move
2:11:14 quickly um and everywhere you can without sacrificing quality or safety take shortcuts that’s the name
2:11:19 of the game we got to get fusion online as soon as possible yeah this is really exciting and really
2:11:27 inspiring uh so the i have to ask then what uh what timeline do you think like first working out there
2:11:34 nuclear fusion power plant when do you think yeah so um what we’ve been able to do is build
2:11:42 rapidly build every few years bring a new fusion system online um in 2023 we signed a deal with microsoft
2:11:48 to build a power plant for microsoft for one of their data centers and this is a power plant um that is
2:11:55 plugged into the grid generating electricity from fusion and um and with a very very tough ambitious
2:12:01 timeline of 2028 for the first electrons from that power plant and that power plant will be powering
2:12:08 a data center that power plant will be powering the grid that the data center is plugged into and we can
2:12:14 get into the details of of how how the power grid works and and such but yes so microsoft will be buying
2:12:20 the power from that power plant props to microsoft for like creating a hard deadline i love it they are
2:12:27 they are and uh it is daily that we think about that deadline um we had been working with them on and
2:12:34 off through all of those machines through grande venti trenta um so they had seen us build hit milestones
2:12:40 show that we can do fusion scale up by orders of magnitude and then and then access these advanced fusion
2:12:45 fuels so they had seen all of those things um and seen the manufacturing we built we’re already right
2:12:53 now building the manufacturing to support that power plant we’re doing that today um we started
2:13:00 two years ago on doing the work around siting around the interconnects how do you plug fusion in what
2:13:05 does it look like how do you site it what are the environmental consequences who’s going to regulate
2:13:09 it all of those things so we spent a lot of time already and we’re we’re on our way and
2:13:13 it’s going to be hard like no joke about it this is this is tough and it’s something that
2:13:18 we think i think about every day i’m sure you’ve had a bunch of people probably still tell you that
2:13:23 this is a pipe dream like this is impossible are there days that you and the team think that
2:13:28 this is indeed impossible and then you wake up the next day and you’re like all right we’re gonna do
2:13:32 it anyway i mean that’s that’s the thought process that’s the mentality we’re gonna do it anyway
2:13:36 let’s go do it the world needs it um there’s no physics reason this can’t be done now it’s a
2:13:41 question of how fast can you build it and can you engineer it to be as efficient as it needs to be
2:13:49 and and and those are engineering and manufacturing are ridiculously hard challenges so do do not short
2:13:53 sell that but that’s the goal and that’s that’s what we we get up every day thinking about this
2:13:58 something i was actually just thinking about and talking with some of my team in the last few days
2:14:07 we we certainly have people that say like no this can never be done um and uh and we had that
2:14:14 before we had that at the very beginning of i want to go merge these plasmas together and folks said nope
2:14:19 that can never happen and we went off and did it and you can’t compress an frc because it’s unstable
2:14:26 in fact i actually still hear that frcs are unstable and um and i say yes i know now let me introduce you
2:14:33 to s star over e and 20 years of studies on what we know about that and and how we can combat that
2:14:38 and so we’ve been able to show through lots of skepticism that we can still build and iterate
2:14:42 and there are things i don’t know i’m like let’s just be totally honest as we’re going to go build these
2:14:48 things we’re going to discover new hard problems um if we’re not doing our job if we’re not if we’re
2:14:52 not discovering new hard problems we probably didn’t push hard enough we probably didn’t push fast enough
2:15:02 um and and i think that’s that’s really critical um that that we build the team um and we do the hiring
2:15:07 to make sure that like though everybody is is doing that problem now that doesn’t mean it’s not a hard
2:15:15 a hard challenge and to keep folks motivated helion now is over 500 people but when we built trenta
2:15:23 we’re 50 people okay so now there’s you know over 300 humans working at helion that didn’t see us
2:15:33 build a system from a computer model bring it online and do fusion with it um but even already for polaris
2:15:40 there are lots of humans that started for our seventh generation system when we were running trenta
2:15:44 doing fusion you know they were able to see that see the measurements know we were doing fusion but
2:15:51 yet this next machine was just a simulation and so seeing that get built seeing that like it’s just
2:15:56 on inspiring to for folks um and i’ll tell you the first time that it that it comes online and flashes
2:16:02 pink and you see that fusion glow uh it’s all inspiring it’s all inspiring i love that
2:16:08 the fusion glow yeah yeah everybody changes their desktop their windows desktop backgrounds to now
2:16:14 the the fusion background the the plasma glow so how can you actually see it it’s a couple of things
2:16:20 so one to get access to it we have windows we have small windows all the way around that we look into
2:16:26 it with cameras uh spectroscopy lasers other kinds of scientific diagnostics that we use to measure
2:16:31 um and and so so you get you you see the light emission through that but also it’s very bright
2:16:39 and so the actual vacuum vessels themselves that we use are ceramic there are uh some versions of
2:16:46 silicon and oxygen typically quartz but there’s also some other centered materials and it’s so bright
2:16:51 that they can shine through those materials and so what you see is you see the light of not fusion
2:16:57 when fusion’s happening thermonuclear fusion is so hot that the light is in the x-ray spectrum and and
2:17:02 the human eye can’t see that um but as you’re as you’re as you’re that ice cold one million degree
2:17:07 plasma when you’re just getting started it’s emitting photons in a range and light in a range
2:17:13 that humans can see and so you see that bright purple fuchsia color and this would be if you’re
2:17:18 doing actual cameras this would be like extremely high speed cameras that kind of thing we have high
2:17:24 speed ones and low speed ones the uh traditional slr cameras which the ones that represent the right
2:17:31 color all they catch is the light the integrated light the flash um they don’t know they can’t see
2:17:36 the the plasma forming accelerating compressing they can’t see any of those things they just see
2:17:42 all of it integrated into one bright flash um but the high speed cameras they can see that and so
2:17:47 the high speed cameras we can use to actually measure that in fact we put special filters on them
2:17:52 to measure different wavelengths of light so we can tell is it the hydrogen is it the helium is it the
2:17:58 helium three who is emitting the light when are they emitting what what particles are emitting the
2:18:03 light and when and so by using those advanced diagnostics we can now take movies of that um
2:18:09 though they’re it’s not it’s not as great as just seeing that flash yeah i mean it’s beautiful right
2:18:14 that human beings are able to create something like that it’s truly beautiful just out of curiosity are
2:18:20 there there’s some interesting intricacies connecting nuclear fusion power plant to the power grid
2:18:27 like is there some like constraints to the old schoolness of the power grid let’s say in the
2:18:32 united states like how do you get that the microsoft thing you mentioned how do you get to the
2:18:40 from the nuclear fusion power plant to a computer with some gpus how do we make that connection or is that
2:18:47 a trivial thing none of this is trivial um but there are i think simple ways and there’s some really
2:18:55 interesting engineering ways to do this so just from the the fundamental basics um as we’re doing fusion
2:19:02 we push back on the magnetic field we recharge these capacitors that that start where the electricity
2:19:09 started from um and that electricity then sits on a capacitor at high voltage dc voltage that’s steady
2:19:17 at that point it’s reasonably easy to make 60 hertz power make traditional ac power the same way as you
2:19:23 can take electricity in a battery and use an inverter and just invert that to ac power and large-scale grid
2:19:29 inverters we know how to do pretty well the one of the sort of like unique things about a pulsed version
2:19:36 of this because it’s pulsed and a repetition rate between one and ten times a second we can adjust the power
2:19:41 output and so as the grid needs more power we can actually dial it up and down and we’ve been able to
2:19:48 demonstrate that with our fusion systems the smaller ones the smaller plasma systems we’ve gone from zero from
2:19:53 off to all the way up to 100 times a second and shown we can do 100 hertz operation in fact that system we
2:19:59 ran for over a billion operations and just ran it steady all day long so each individual pulse is
2:20:04 independent in some each individual pulse is different where you put in your fuel you do fusion you exhaust
2:20:12 it through those pumps from ebay and then um and then power output and electricity output but there’s
2:20:18 probably some more clever ways to do this and and when we when we founded helion the goal was to build
2:20:24 low cost base load electricity and what we started to see working with microsoft um working with others
2:20:30 now that data centers are going to be one of the biggest power needs in the future and and and we know
2:20:37 that’s coming up um and what’s really unique is that power in this form is direct recovery not the steam
2:20:44 turbine part but direct electric electricity is already dc which is steady which is what computers
2:20:51 really want anyway and so are there really unique ways to take dc power sitting on this capacitor and
2:20:57 rather than going ac to the grid and having all these transmission losses just going direct dc to the data
2:21:02 center can you plug right in um and so that’s some of the things that my team is looking at now
2:21:09 is can you do that direct dc conversion at super high efficiencies and run those gpus directly
2:21:14 that would be really powerful we could figure out how to do it uh but but that those are some of the
2:21:19 things that i think there might be some unique ways that fusion and data centers can really couple
2:21:24 together there’s a whole cooling part to it too most of my cooling is cooling semiconductors and cooling
2:21:30 power switching just like a data center so there’s a lot of interesting uh engineering
2:21:37 ways that we can bring those two together so a deeper integration between uh the power plant
2:21:42 and the thing that is powering and it does seem like the future quite possibly
2:21:53 um a lot of the energy that’s needed will be uh for compute for ai related applications
2:22:01 so if you just look out into the future 10 20 50 years from now do you see nuclear fusion as a thing
2:22:08 that powers these gigantic data centers of millions of gpus just basically the surface of the earth
2:22:17 covered in compute and nuclear fusion power plants maybe that’s a hundred years out so when i talk to
2:22:26 ai experts they talk pretty routinely about the power needs for ai and in fact in the same way in
2:22:34 manufacturing that the cost of any one thing asymptotes to the raw material for ai the cost of
2:22:42 computation asymptotes to the power to the cost of the electricity and even even more that electricity is
2:22:49 concentrated it’s in that ai data center that brain where all the power is and you really want a lot of
2:22:56 high energy density you want power generation right there on site um so it seems like just take those two
2:23:03 facts a really nice match for between fusion which is baseload high energy density can be cited most
2:23:11 places and a data center which is going to be high energy requirements in a local location and large
2:23:17 amounts of it there’s been predictions recently from energy institutes that suggest we will have
2:23:22 growth that rather than a two percent growth per year in electricity maybe a four or six percent
2:23:28 growth in electricity due to data center use i think that is probably wildly underestimating
2:23:41 where we’re moving um and and so oh man and so the idea that that ai can grow human cognition and our
2:23:48 ability to solve problems we can’t let it be limited by power and so i’m going to push as hard as i can
2:23:54 so that so that that that’s not the limit do you ever think about like 2050 or something like that just
2:24:02 i know you’re focused on a few years out just getting a fusion power plant working but do you ever think
2:24:08 about like even longer term future you see by what year do you think there’ll be over a thousand
2:24:16 nuclear fusion power plants so i tell the team uh that if we demonstrate fusion one time
2:24:24 and that’s it then we failed but that’s not enough that’s not the the universe is powered by fusion humans
2:24:34 need to be harnessing this and can harness this for our society for the good of society for the good of
2:24:42 technology and so that’s something that that we push towards and in fact it’s baked into how we we design
2:24:50 these machines coils are mass produced capacitors are mass produced and we make them all all across the board
2:24:55 as thinking about not what the next system is going to be but making sure we’re building the manufacturing
2:25:02 and the infrastructure to build all of those systems so we had a uh call from the white house a number of
2:25:09 years ago for the bold decadal study in fusion um of how do we get fusion and it was it was helion and a
2:25:14 variety of other companies from the fusion industry and it’s pretty awesome to be able to say there’s a fusion
2:25:19 industry now that it’s not it’s not just a one-off thing or there’s a fusion experiment or somebody has
2:25:25 a prototype but like there’s an industry yeah that that helion has competitors yeah that’s great i’ve
2:25:31 never heard anyone so excited to have competitors but yes that’s like a serious thing that’s a real
2:25:37 possibility yeah and the goal was how do we not just demonstrate fusion in the next decade but
2:25:45 meaningfully deploy it and and start to answer we have four thousand gigawatts of installed fossil fuel
2:25:50 capacity how do we how do we start replacing that with fusion in a meaningful way and how do we get to
2:25:58 not just making a generator every few years but we want a factory a gigafactory of these fusion
2:26:06 generators rolling off the line one a month one a week one a day and that’s the kind of plans that
2:26:11 i task my supply chain team with like how do you do this how do we actually go build this how to go
2:26:17 build a gigafactory so we can have 50 megawatt generators coming off the line being deployed on a
2:26:26 truck and then driving off the factory every day and it’s a tough challenge uh i i see what we uh what
2:26:31 others have been able to do in rockets and electric vehicles turning on huge factories
2:26:39 we know this can be done and so for fusion the coal is there and and the market is there too if you can
2:26:46 get electricity generators cheap enough then it’s then it’s worth doing yeah i mean all of this is really
2:26:52 exciting and inspiring what you’re doing and obviously the world needs it and the more
2:27:00 cheap energy we have of this kind that we describe clean and it’s not constrained to geographical
2:27:06 locations and so on first of all that alleviates a lot of the tension that in geopolitics but second
2:27:12 of all it enables a lot of the technological breakthroughs uh on the ai side on all the
2:27:17 different things that we use compute for it’s really really exciting so yeah i hope there’s like
2:27:23 millions of millions of them in the coming decades and so if we can get to that if we can get to making
2:27:29 a generator a day you’re not now talking about hundreds a year and you’re deploying and deploying
2:27:35 them is is also hard at this scale um how do you go and deploy power plants and deploy generators
2:27:40 at this scale and do it quickly um interestingly data centers are a little bit of a nicer challenge in
2:27:47 that way because i wouldn’t we wouldn’t build one 50 megawatt system and have to go build a site for
2:27:52 it we’ll build a site and put a hundred of them on that site and have large amounts of power for that
2:27:58 large data center and so so that in some ways it actually in the chicken and egg problem of how do you go
2:28:04 deploy hundreds or thousands of fusion generators um data centers are an interesting application where very
2:28:09 immediately you need a lot of power in a very small area um and you can go you can go do that now
2:28:14 what does that mean that means i’m going to need more than two conveyor belts that’s for sure yeah
2:28:20 yeah well you have to i mean manufacturing is really hard but like you said the fascinating thing is
2:28:26 it’s hard but as you’re doing it you figure out all the other things the science and physics and the
2:28:33 everything everything everything the innovation is accelerated when you have to manufacture at scale
2:28:39 it’s actually fascinating to watch you see that in the in the space industry as well uh when uh
2:28:45 do we humans get to kardashiv type one civilization status and when do we get to a kardashiv type two
2:28:54 so the kardashiv scale kardashiv type one civilization is when humans are either catching or generating
2:29:01 as much power as what’s incident on the earth from the sun uh type two is the next big one
2:29:06 where you’re catching as much energy from all the way around the sun uh so massive amounts of energy
2:29:12 and a lot of times people talk about it as incident as in you had solar panels the size of the entire
2:29:17 planet blocking all of the sun but i think really you should be thinking about it as what can we generate
2:29:25 what can we make here on earth and um what we know is that we you know we’re only a fraction
2:29:31 right now of kardashiv type one and we got some work to do um and and there’s not a lot of technologies
2:29:38 that can get there just from the point of view of the fuel um but if as some research say that there’s
2:29:44 a hundred million to a billion years of fusion fuel on the earth we have room to go and that’s at today’s
2:29:50 use so a hundred times today’s use we still have tons of fuel let’s go do it um and what does that unlock
2:29:56 what does unlock to have um power a hundred times the output that we actually do here on earth right now
2:30:02 and and i think that’s pretty pretty transformational do we have those huge ai data centers do we have
2:30:09 brains they can now think at rapid speeds and now innovate um i think that that that’s a pretty powerful future
2:30:18 yeah i could just imagine a giant ai brain and rockets just constantly uh shipping more and more
2:30:26 humans out into space into colonizing space and we’re expanding out into the out into the universe
2:30:31 i mean it’s a i mean obviously there’s a lot to be concerned about this technology in itself is always
2:30:37 a double-edged sword there’s always a concern that we humans in the power we create will also destroy
2:30:44 ourselves in uh obvious ways in less than obvious ways it’s i’ve been spending a lot of times in a lot
2:30:51 of time in nature and you become distinctly aware that there’s something truly special about the
2:31:00 simplicity the balance that is uh achieved by nature and in some sense we disturb that balance by creating
2:31:07 sophisticated technologies but in another sense we’re building something in the spirit of nature that’s
2:31:13 more and more beautiful and allows us humans to flourish in richer and richer ways so double-edged sword
2:31:24 i think a lot about how what does vast amounts of low-cost energy low-cost electricity enable and how does that work
2:31:33 with nature um and if you have power and this is why one of the reasons we love fusion is that’s energy
2:31:41 dense so a 50 megawatt facility we believe fits in a 27 000 square foot building on the order of an acre
2:31:48 for 50 megawatts and compare that to solar would be 2 000 acres at least in seattle and what you can
2:31:55 do there is transformational and a lot of folks talk about desalination and clean water so that we can
2:32:00 have uh be in places where there’s not a lot of water and and those things i actually think about food
2:32:07 ironically is that how much of the earth’s surface that used to be nature is now farmland and we need
2:32:12 like we’re we’re gonna grow food because humans need to eat and and and that’s really critical but
2:32:18 it’s about five feet tall all over the earth why can’t you do it at 500 feet why can’t you build a
2:32:24 building that where you’re actually growing in the building you’re growing plants um i spend a lot of time
2:32:30 thinking about growing plants ironically um at high densities of food densities so that we can eat
2:32:36 and we can exist and we can coexist in a way that’s energy dense and rich you mentioned actually going
2:32:43 to space um you know how do we go to space now we take uh methane fuels or or hydrogen fuels and we
2:32:49 burn them and we launch a rocket um there’s all kinds of cool beamed rocket technologies that i looked
2:32:55 at early in my career where you can like beam microwaves and so you have a microwave craft that
2:33:01 doesn’t have to burn any fuel and so if you have really dense really good power on earth you can
2:33:07 beam it to that microwave craft it can now it can now use electricity as it’s as it’s rocket fuel
2:33:13 and so there’s some really powerful interesting things you can do even deep space it gets also more
2:33:18 enabling but even just launching from earth and so i think i think it opens up things we don’t really
2:33:25 even think about that has just been theorized wow if i had a massive amounts of power in a small
2:33:31 place that is low cost um this is what it could do but i’m excited by what it can unlock that even
2:33:36 we can think about now but even what we can’t think about or we don’t know yet since you mentioned
2:33:43 propulsion is there some interesting use possible use of nuclear fusion in uh propulsion whether it’s
2:33:49 getting off of earth or in going into deep space i mean that’s honestly in a lot of ways that’s how i
2:33:58 got into fusion is thinking about that intersection of energy and space travel and when you are in the
2:34:06 solar system uh around earth’s orbit collecting the sun’s energy makes a lot of sense and it’s there
2:34:10 it’s free when you’re in space you get a lot more of it because the atmosphere is not blocking it
2:34:16 and so that’s why spacecraft run on solar panels but if you want to go further out the sun’s irradiance
2:34:22 falls off as r squared radius squared and it’s a long way out there it doesn’t take very long before
2:34:28 there is not a lot of energy anywhere from the sun and so you have to bring it with you and in space
2:34:34 mass is expensive mass is hard that’s the rocket equation and so um being able to bring high energy
2:34:41 density fuel is really exciting um and that’s what that’s what fusion enables but here’s one of the
2:34:49 challenges if you make electricity from fusion using a steam cycle you now need to have somewhere you need
2:34:55 something cool so you you get hot water you have to be able to cool it and in space there’s nothing to
2:35:01 cool there’s no working fluid to cool off of and so actually a lot of the steam based systems that in
2:35:07 fusion don’t make sense for space and so that’s where some of this direct energy this this energy
2:35:13 efficiency matters it actually comes to some of the origin story of the team that founded helion
2:35:21 before spinning off helion to focus only on on fusion we worked on a mix of things advanced materials
2:35:30 rocket propulsion fusion fusion rockets fusion materials all of those things nice um and one thing that
2:35:37 people in the in the aerospace field know especially if you’re in deep space you can’t waste anything
2:35:44 that every watt of electricity you make you better use because it was expensive to get it or the solar
2:35:50 panel um every ounce of every joule of heat every watt of heat you make you have to reject with a
2:35:57 radiator and it’s super expensive and heavy and so you build in space as efficient as possible you recirculate
2:36:04 your your water and your air and all of those things you’re efficient um and it’s something we brought
2:36:10 into thinking about fusion energy efficiency is that you want to if my goal is to make the product what’s
2:36:17 the product the product is electricity don’t waste any of it recover every watt you can by by recovering
2:36:23 electricity directly recover every electricity from the fusion process as efficiently as you can um and you end up
2:36:30 with just like in space systems that are smaller or have higher performance and can deliver more whatever
2:36:37 whatever the mission is and in our case the mission is electricity when you look out there at the stars
2:36:44 i’m really confused by what’s going on because i think there is for sure thousands if not millions of
2:36:52 advanced alien civilizations out there i’m really confused why we have not in a definitive way
2:37:00 met any of them uh so again continuing the pothead questions what uh energy source do you think they’re
2:37:05 using if what i’m saying is true that there is alien civilizations out there do you think it’s like
2:37:10 pretty certain that they in order to expand out into the cosmos they would be using nuclear fusion
2:37:16 it’s hard to imagine anything else that right now what where does energy in the universe come from and
2:37:23 it comes from fusion comes from stars um and and we know that that’s the process and so whether they’re harnessing
2:37:30 the star itself kardachev type 2 or are they bringing fusion along because they want to go somewhere and
2:37:38 they’re bringing it with them to go visit um i think that that’s that that’s pretty um that’s pretty likely
2:37:46 uh you bring up the fermi paradox how come we don’t see alien civilizations um even if it’s infinitesimally
2:37:53 small chance that there is life on any one planet and infinitesimally small that life uh grows into intelligent
2:38:01 life there are however almost infinite planets around infinite stars in our galaxy that have been around
2:38:07 for vastly longer than we’ve been around but we don’t see it and i think that’s a question that many
2:38:13 scientists and and everyone has wrestled with over the years i mean i’m very scared by the implications of
2:38:19 that the scary thing is that to the point that we made earlier as we become more and more technologically
2:38:28 advanced we end up destroying ourselves like there could be things we unlock but nuclear weapons but
2:38:39 plus plus like new things that happen as you develop super advanced systems that close to 100 probability
2:38:47 uh destroy ourselves destroying intelligent being the kind of intelligent being that’s ambitious enough to
2:38:54 keep innovating will eventually destroy itself will be one explanation and that’s scary that that should be
2:38:59 a sobering that’s at least an inspiring sobering thought to be careful with the stuff we create
2:39:09 but i also just look into humans we create dangerous stuff and then figure out like sometimes almost like
2:39:15 last minute how to not destroy ourselves we’re good with deadlines we’re good with deadlines
2:39:22 and we’re good at like surviving i mean life as we know it on earth seems to find a way
2:39:30 and intelligent life as we know a human life seems to find a way we do a lot of painful things along the way
2:39:36 but in the end we somehow survive it’s interesting there’s something in the human spirit
2:39:46 that allows us to survive so so i have like a lot of optimism about the super powerful technologies that
2:39:52 we create will eventually lead to us still surviving for thousands of years but then like why the aliens not
2:40:00 here though so maybe it’s also possible this really difficult to traverse space maybe it really is that
2:40:06 difficult the physics makes it not easy there’s a lot of space and it’s just hard to hard to travel
2:40:15 i think um i as i have gone further and further and building fusion systems that work um i’ve become more
2:40:21 optimistic around the fermi paradox specifically and there’s there is the uh there’s several of them but i think
2:40:28 you’re referring to something called the great filter something happens that filters out life um the dark
2:40:34 forest is another philosophy around sure it’s out there but everybody’s hiding because they don’t want to be
2:40:39 noticed but i think about something else actually the philosophy that i’ve always loved and i’m going to
2:40:46 pronounce this wrong so i apologize uh matryoshka brains is that and that’s kardeshev level two that
2:40:54 civilizations get so advanced and they focus not on expanding physically and expanding in space and
2:41:02 expanding their reach by planting flags in new places but grow their cognition grow their ability
2:41:09 to think they grow their brain they grow their intellect um and i i feel like in the last few years
2:41:17 we’ve seen a massive trend that maybe this is the thing that happens and that we do grow our intellect
2:41:27 and we grow the intellect of the species by ai and advanced tools and and as a society can just get
2:41:33 smart enough that we don’t need to go plant those flags everywhere and so the matryoshka brain is uh a
2:41:41 a dyson sphere where a civilization has covered the entire sun in essentially solar panels or collects
2:41:47 its light in some way and uses all of that power to power intelligence to power computers and to power
2:41:55 brains and i think we’re away from that a ways away from that but maybe ai and fusion together gets you
2:42:02 actually along that path sooner and uh i’m i’m excited by that outcome of the fermi paradox and then at that
2:42:07 point those civilizations have a star that you can’t find anymore because it’s all covered
2:42:13 and are there thinking and growing their intellects rather than actually having to physically expand
2:42:20 yeah exploring and expanding in the realm of uh cognition and consciousness versus in the realm of space
2:42:32 space and time as we uh 21st century colonizer humans uh think like maybe 22nd century humans will be uh
2:42:38 thinking fundamentally differently yeah that’s a beautiful beautiful vision of the future uh speaking
2:42:44 of beauty you’ve been doing a lot of really interesting things in a lot of interesting disciplines
2:42:54 what to you is uh a ridiculous question is the most beautiful idea in physics and um nuclear engineering
2:43:04 in uh nuclear fusion and power plants what what ideas you just step back are and are in awe of
2:43:14 i’m continuously in awe that it works yeah and i know i know that that sounds a little silly to say
2:43:24 um but the more that i learned in my career around the balance of exactly the right temperatures
2:43:31 where life works exactly the right balance between the electromagnetic force and the strong force
2:43:34 those are things that
2:43:40 it’s hard to imagine are accidental
2:43:51 and um and so we talk about how beautiful nature is but then you look at what each of the leaves on
2:43:57 the tree really is and each of the cells and each of the atoms and each of this quantum substructure of
2:44:02 that atom and uh i’m just i’m i’m all amazed that all the pieces come together
2:44:11 we humans are somehow able to find that perfect balance where it just works just works last
2:44:18 minute sometimes but it does work the kind of deadlines you’re operating that you’re uh the
2:44:23 the group of brilliant people that you’re working with are operating under is just um it stresses me out
2:44:29 but it excites me so i’m uh deeply grateful that you’re doing this work you’re one of the people
2:44:35 building an exciting future so thank you for doing that and uh thank you so much for talking today
2:44:40 thank you very much it’s been fun thanks for listening to this conversation with david currently
2:44:44 to support this podcast please check out our sponsors in the description where you can also
2:44:51 find links to contact me ask questions give feedback and so on and now let me leave you with some words from
2:44:59 some words from the great john f kennedy we choose to do these things not because they are easy but because
2:45:13 they are hard thank you for listening and hope to see you next time