AI transcript
0:00:08 Hey there, it’s Stephen Dubner with a quick word before today’s episode.
0:00:12 We have a new listener survey that I would love you to take if you have the time and
0:00:13 the interest.
0:00:19 We are always trying to get better around here and feedback helps, so please go to Freakonomics.com/survey.
0:00:32 It’ll only take a few minutes.
0:00:36 I really only started paying attention to the Macy’s Thanksgiving Day parade about 10
0:00:41 years ago, when my family and I moved into the neighborhood where the parade starts and
0:00:44 where the night before they stage everything.
0:00:47 This is on the Upper West Side of Manhattan.
0:00:52 We take over two extra-wide streets to lay out the giant balloons.
0:00:57 Each balloon arrives folded up flat in its own small rolling cart.
0:01:02 It gets unpacked, unfolded, laid out on the pavement, and then comes the helium.
0:01:07 There’s a truck nearby with big helium canisters stacked horizontally on a rack.
0:01:11 Up close, the balloons are really big.
0:01:16 You see this as soon as they start drinking up some helium and puff up to full size.
0:01:22 Tonight is Wednesday, the night before the parade, Inflation Night, they call it.
0:01:26 So the balloons aren’t allowed to rise to parade height.
0:01:31 Each one has a net thrown across the top and the net is held down by sandbags.
0:01:36 If you happen to be passing by on foot, this can provide an unusual view of your favorite
0:01:44 balloon character, a bulging eyeball, a massive derriere, some very chubby fingers.
0:01:48 Many thousands of people come see the balloons on Inflation Night.
0:01:54 It is an unusual and joyful scene for the visitors and the locals.
0:01:59 For many people, myself included, it is the best New York night of the year.
0:02:04 A lot of people who live on these blocks throw Inflation Parties up in their apartments.
0:02:09 And when you look straight down out of your window, you get another unusual and wonderful
0:02:11 view of the balloons.
0:02:16 I’ve watched this whole operation for several years now, and every year, I’m a little
0:02:18 bit more impressed.
0:02:24 The parade people execute the mission with a blend of military efficiency and childlike
0:02:25 glee.
0:02:29 You can’t help but marvel at how much planning must go into it.
0:02:32 Also, how good the execution has to be.
0:02:39 Not just from the parade side of things, but from the city side and the broadcasting side.
0:02:42 And it’s not like they have weeks or even days to set up.
0:02:49 On Wednesday morning, the streets are normal, full of cars, trucks, jaywalkers, dogs, bikes,
0:02:54 and then the balloon people come and you get to see the real, up-close version of the thing
0:02:59 that everybody else has to watch on TV, in miniature.
0:03:04 The cleanup begins as soon as the last balloon enters the parade on Central Park West, and
0:03:10 by the time they reach the Macy’s flagship store down in Harold Square, our streets
0:03:14 are back to cars and trucks again, although not so many since it’s still Thanksgiving
0:03:15 morning.
0:03:19 Like I said, it’s only recently that I began paying attention to the parade.
0:03:25 I do remember it being on TV when I was a kid, but I don’t know, I guess I just wasn’t
0:03:27 a parade person.
0:03:32 Seeing it up close made me curious, and after last year’s parade, I took a look at the TV
0:03:33 ratings.
0:03:43 Holy, nearly 30 million viewers, another 3 million plus watch in person from the sidewalks
0:03:48 and grandstands, but the TV numbers blew me away.
0:03:52 As you may know, the television juggernaut these days is the National Football League.
0:03:58 Of the 100 most watched broadcasts last year, 93 were NFL games.
0:04:03 The Macy’s parade was one of the remaining 7, beaten out only by the State of the Union
0:04:04 address.
0:04:10 A TV audience of 30 million must generate a lot of ad revenue, and then I got to wondering
0:04:16 how much, and then I got to wondering how much it costs to produce the parade.
0:04:18 Simple questions, right?
0:04:21 As it turns out, not so simple.
0:04:27 Macy’s is one of the oldest department stores in the US, and it has a lot of traditions.
0:04:33 One of those traditions is not talking about the economics of its Thanksgiving parade.
0:04:38 They like to call it their annual gift to the nation, and we all know it’s not polite
0:04:45 to ask how much a gift costs, but today, on Freakonomics Radio, we ask anyway.
0:04:58 Why?
0:05:01 This is the first of a two-part series.
0:05:04 We will look into the cost of the raw materials.
0:05:06 We do have our finger on the pulse of helium.
0:05:09 We’ll look at how New York City pitches in.
0:05:13 I don’t know how you guys found me, by the way.
0:05:15 Because most people don’t know I exist.
0:05:21 We will hear from the CEO of Macy’s, who’s trying to keep an old store alive when so
0:05:23 much retail is dying.
0:05:26 I want to be perceived as giving this gift to the city and to the nation.
0:05:28 I also want to do a lot of business.
0:05:33 And we ask an industry expert what Macy’s stands for today.
0:05:35 Macy’s doesn’t stand for anything today.
0:05:41 So come along as we drink the helium and wonder if the Macy’s parade may be the most valuable
0:05:55 lesson Macy’s has.
0:06:01 This is Freakonomics Radio, the podcast that explores the hidden side of everything with
0:06:12 your host Stephen Dubner.
0:06:17 We are hardly the first people to wonder how much it costs to stage the Macy’s Thanksgiving
0:06:18 Day Parade.
0:06:24 There are published estimates ranging from around $10 to $15 million, but they’re just
0:06:29 estimates and it’s unclear where those numbers come from, which makes sense.
0:06:33 Macy’s doesn’t like to talk about it, and therefore it’s hard to even identify all
0:06:34 the costs.
0:06:38 It’s also hard to quantify the benefits.
0:06:43 Keep in mind that most of the balloons and floats in the parade are sponsored by big brands
0:06:48 that are presumably paying big money for the millions of eyeballs that will see them.
0:06:52 And the parade itself is one big ad for Macy’s.
0:06:56 But let’s start by focusing on the costs.
0:07:01 There is, of course, the expense of building and maintaining the balloons and floats.
0:07:05 There is the casting and wrangling of the marching bands and other performers.
0:07:10 And there are all sorts of city services, police and sanitation and counter-terrorism
0:07:13 that somebody’s paying for.
0:07:18 And then there are all the personnel costs for the Macy’s parade unit, which is a year-round
0:07:19 operation.
0:07:23 So we figured we might as well start at the source.
0:07:27 Will Koss, and I’m the executive producer of Macy’s Thanksgiving Day parade.
0:07:29 And what does Will Koss actually do?
0:07:35 The executive producer oversees the entire production of the parade from our balloon and
0:07:41 float design, construction fabrication, and delivery to New York City on parade day to
0:07:47 all of the logistics as it relates to shutting down three and a half miles of New York City
0:07:49 on the busiest travel day in New York.
0:07:54 Koss grew up in New York in the Bronx and he went to college nearby on Long Island.
0:07:57 I traveled really far.
0:08:00 Have you ever lived outside of the New York City area then?
0:08:02 I’ve not.
0:08:04 Koss now lives on the Upper West Side with his wife and daughter.
0:08:06 He’s 44 years old.
0:08:13 He started out as a producer for MTV, Nickelodeon, YouTube, and he got the Macy’s job in 2021.
0:08:16 But he sounds like a lifer.
0:08:21 They’re part of the tradition of Thanksgiving morning for millions of people.
0:08:22 If you love marching bands, we’ve got that.
0:08:24 If you love giant balloons, we’ve got that.
0:08:25 We’ve got floats.
0:08:27 We’ve got celebrity.
0:08:28 We’ve been a staple.
0:08:32 Whether you’re sat in front of the television or have it on in the background just using
0:08:37 us as a soundtrack to your Thanksgiving morning, we’re there.
0:08:44 Macy’s itself was founded in 1858 by Roland Hussie Macy, a former whaler from Nantucket.
0:08:51 He ran dry goods stores in Massachusetts and California before settling in New York City.
0:08:55 They sold everything from clothing and furniture to groceries and books.
0:09:02 By 1902, according to one history of the store, the human wants were few indeed that the Macy’s
0:09:04 store could not meet.
0:09:09 By 1924, the Macy’s flagship store in Herald Square was the world’s largest store with
0:09:13 over one and a half million square feet.
0:09:18 That year, Macy’s sponsored its first parade, a six-mile march through Manhattan.
0:09:25 It featured three horse-drawn floats, four professional bands, and camels, elephants,
0:09:28 and bears borrowed from the Central Park Zoo.
0:09:34 In these early days, Macy’s released big helium balloons into the sky after the parade and
0:09:37 offered a $100 reward for the return.
0:09:44 That tradition ended in 1932 when a novice pilot, going for the reward, crashed into
0:09:46 a balloon in the sky.
0:09:51 It has now been 100 years since the first parade, although this year’s addition is only the
0:09:55 98th since they took three years off during World War II.
0:09:58 The parade today looks a lot different than it used to.
0:10:03 When there are 30 million people watching on TV, appearances matter.
0:10:06 We are the largest televised variety show of the year.
0:10:10 There’s something about the work that we do that connects multi-generational.
0:10:15 It’s a responsibility that we don’t take lightly, knowing that we have that impact on
0:10:18 so many folks.
0:10:25 The demographics are far and wide and are representative of everyone that’s in New York City and America.
0:10:26 That is Jen Neal.
0:10:33 And I oversee the strategy, the creative development, and the operations for all of our live events
0:10:36 and specials across NBCU.
0:10:41 NBCUniversal is the network that has carried the Macy’s parade for 71 years.
0:10:45 Neal’s team produces roughly three dozen big live events a year.
0:10:51 Christmas at Rockefeller Center, New Year’s Eve, the People’s Choice Awards, red carpets
0:10:56 around Hollywood’s biggest nights like the Grammys, the Oscars.
0:10:58 My role focuses on the entertainment side.
0:11:03 But we have incredible teams on the sports side that do the Super Bowl and the Olympics.
0:11:09 Can you compare the production and coverage of the parade to the Super Bowl?
0:11:13 Obviously, with the Super Bowl, there are many, many, many elements and features and
0:11:14 so on.
0:11:21 But it is, in the end, a self-contained athletic competition on one big patch of turf, whereas
0:11:28 the parade is this roving, multi-mile extravaganza through New York City.
0:11:33 There’s incredible complexity in terms of the production.
0:11:41 Each year, there are a number of elements that stay the same and each year we are evaluating
0:11:43 what we want to evolve and change.
0:11:46 Do the Broadway shows kick off the show?
0:11:49 Is it better to have them in the second or third hour?
0:11:54 A Super Bowl is incredible and there’s many dynamics that go into that, but you’re still
0:11:59 covering a football game which has the same rules and the same field of play each year.
0:12:01 What is the timeline from your end?
0:12:04 When do you start working on a given year’s parade?
0:12:09 We start looking at it right after the parade ends, truly, the week or two after.
0:12:14 In fact, this year is the 98th year of the parade and we are already talking about the
0:12:18 99th and the 100th anniversary.
0:12:23 The parade is an 18-month pre-production to execution process.
0:12:25 That’s will cost again.
0:12:31 My full Macy Studios team is over 65 full-time folks that range from our partnership team
0:12:36 to our creative team to our studio production team, logistics, project management, production
0:12:37 management.
0:12:40 The 65 number is our full-time.
0:12:43 As we get closer, we expand considerably.
0:12:47 The week before, they paint the star on 34th Street.
0:12:51 The Monday and Tuesday nights, we shut down 34th Street in front of Macy’s, we’re rehearsing
0:12:53 with all the performers.
0:13:00 Wednesday night, we’ve introduced in the last two years a countdown show to bring to life
0:13:05 the inflation of the balloons that happen magically on the Upper West Side.
0:13:10 Then Thursday, we have a call time, the day of Thanksgiving, 2 a.m.
0:13:13 And Jen, where do you spend parade day?
0:13:14 I’m in the truck.
0:13:16 I’m in the truck on parade day.
0:13:17 Which is where?
0:13:19 On 34th Street or Jason to 34th Street.
0:13:21 What’s that day like for you?
0:13:24 There’s a lot of energy, a lot of adrenaline.
0:13:28 We go live at 8.30 through noon, so it’s three and a half hours of that coverage.
0:13:33 We have preparation and contingencies and plans for every single thing that can happen
0:13:34 along the way.
0:13:42 And then I do, once every parade, take 30 seconds during a commercial break and jump out into
0:13:49 the streets and see the scale of Snoopy or the Minion or the Doughboy adjacent to the
0:13:50 buildings in New York.
0:13:51 And it’s magic.
0:13:55 It also sounds incredibly expensive to produce from your side.
0:14:01 Not just the coverage part, but the coordination and the run of show and talent and so on.
0:14:03 Can you just talk about how extensive that is?
0:14:09 We don’t really get into the cost of everything, but what I can say is we know that this is
0:14:14 incredibly valuable to our advertising partners.
0:14:19 And we know that advertising messages that are in the parade deliver stronger memorability
0:14:20 and likability.
0:14:29 I did see on the NBC Universal site a report about the power of the parade from a consumer
0:14:30 perspective.
0:14:35 It said that the year-over-year growth demonstrates that NBC Universal is moving consumers down
0:14:37 the purchase funnel.
0:14:40 What does that mean, moving consumers down the purchase funnel?
0:14:44 First, our job is we got to make sure that this is incredibly entertaining and relevant
0:14:46 and great TV.
0:14:52 And second, brands want to be associated with this because their messaging is woven in and
0:14:55 each brand takes a different strategy to do that.
0:14:57 Can you give me an example?
0:15:03 When you are a Genio turkey and you want to have a turkey float, they’re going to want
0:15:07 to talk about the number of years of the big turkey spectacular and what Genio brings to
0:15:08 you.
0:15:14 Well, the star of the Thanksgiving meal has arrived on a green and gold platter.
0:15:16 The signature colors of its gracious host, Genio.
0:15:22 If you’re the jolly green giant, you’re going to talk about Holly traditions and some of
0:15:23 those products.
0:15:30 Well, there in the valley on the farm, the green giant oversees the fall harvest, ensuring
0:15:36 that each vegetable for your Thanksgiving table is picked at the peak of perfection.
0:15:42 In other words, yes, the Macy’s Thanksgiving Day parade is a parade, but unlike a memorial
0:15:49 parade or a victory parade or a pride parade, this one is plainly a commercial venture,
0:15:50 a marketing venture.
0:15:54 If you have a Minions float, you’re definitely going to talk about Stuart the Minions and
0:15:55 the frantic bananas.
0:16:00 Ronald McDonald, Smokey the Bear, all of these are traditions and floats that have their
0:16:06 own unique messaging from forest fires to fundraising for children’s hospitals to the
0:16:32 wonder ship float.
0:16:48 We did later find an estimate from Vivex, a company that tracks commercial ad spending.
0:16:54 They report that brands spent $76 million to advertise on NBC during last year’s parade
0:16:55 broadcast.
0:17:00 Macy’s would, as the saying goes, neither confirm nor deny.
0:17:06 And that TV revenue presumably wouldn’t include money the brands pay Macy’s directly for
0:17:09 the rights to sponsor a balloon or a float.
0:17:13 Although we should say not every balloon or float is bringing in sponsor money because
0:17:16 some of them are promoting Macy’s itself.
0:17:18 Here’s Will Kos again.
0:17:25 Tom Turkey and Santa are Macy’s owned and are the iconic elements that open and close
0:17:26 the parade.
0:17:30 Okay, so there’s no royalties being paid to the Santa Claus Foundation or anything like
0:17:32 that, I assume.
0:17:36 So I want to ask you about the relationships with the brands and whatever you’re willing
0:17:39 or able to tell me about the financial relationship.
0:17:44 My wife’s favorite balloon when she was a kid, she grew up in New York, was the Pillsbury
0:17:50 Doughboy and the first year we lived on this block, when we woke up the next morning at
0:17:58 like 6 a.m. and we looked down it’s just this magical site with the sunrise off the balloons
0:18:03 and there was the Doughboy and we could see like the patches his butt was taped a little
0:18:06 bit and it was just so beautiful and endearing.
0:18:11 And I thought, wait a minute, is that still the Pillsbury Doughboy, does Pillsbury still
0:18:12 even exist?
0:18:16 Then I started to think about Snoopy and I thought about Snoopy I knew was the emblem
0:18:20 of MetLife for a while and I thought, oh, does that mean it’s a MetLife balloon?
0:18:26 So let me just make it an open thread for you to tell me what you can about why the
0:18:32 balloons that are in the parade are in the parade and how that relationship works.
0:18:39 Pillsbury Doughboy, Snoopy, our peanut characters, SpongeBob SquarePants, the goal with all of
0:18:45 our balloons is to create a moment that’s instantly recognizable in the sky as it relates
0:18:48 to selection of balloon.
0:18:53 The most important goal is to ensure that each of the characters resonates with our audiences
0:18:55 and our audiences 1 to 100.
0:19:01 So we have some of those we’ll call them legacy characters and then we have new characters
0:19:04 that are appealing to a much younger audience.
0:19:09 And Will, what if someone like me came to you and I said, hey, Will, I’ve got this brand
0:19:11 Freakonomics Radio.
0:19:15 In some ways it’s a pretty big brand, but you know, it’s kind of like a big niche brand.
0:19:17 It’s not Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles.
0:19:19 It’s not, you know, Spider-Man.
0:19:20 I recognize that.
0:19:25 But I’ve also got a pretty beautiful visual image, what we call an orple, right?
0:19:28 It’s an apple that you cut open and it’s an orange in the middle and it’s, you know, it’s
0:19:29 fruit.
0:19:30 Who doesn’t like fruit?
0:19:36 And I think it would be worth my while to try to figure out how to get my brand in front
0:19:37 of the world.
0:19:41 These 30 million people are watching on TV, these 3 million that are there.
0:19:44 Would you even take a meeting with me?
0:19:46 You’re taking the meeting right now.
0:19:49 You’re underselling the brand, my friend.
0:19:52 We’re open to taking every meeting and every conversation.
0:19:57 This is not an exclusive members only type of event.
0:20:02 Well, maybe not quite members only, but it is a small club.
0:20:06 This year there are 17 giant balloons in the parade.
0:20:12 Sadly, the Freakonomics Orple is not one of them, but this guy has one.
0:20:16 I pinch myself when I see the balloon fly down the main avenue there.
0:20:23 That is Jeff Kinney, an owner of an unlikely storybook store in Plainville, Massachusetts,
0:20:26 and I am the author of the Diary of a Wimpy Kid series.
0:20:32 Now for those who are children or have children who have read those books, you are somewhere
0:20:39 between, I don’t know, Jesus Christ and pick your favorite cult hero ever.
0:20:42 What’s it been like to be you these last 15, 18 years?
0:20:47 The ride for me has been a lot like the Truman Show.
0:20:52 I feel like I created this character who’s a stick figure and somehow that has propelled
0:20:56 me into the most unusual situations you could ever imagine.
0:21:01 How many books have there been now and how many copies sold globally?
0:21:04 There are 19 books in the main series.
0:21:11 I have four or five spin-off books and there have been about 295 million sold.
0:21:14 For people who don’t know the series or don’t know the character, just talk to me for a
0:21:15 minute about Greg Heffley.
0:21:16 Who is he?
0:21:20 What is his interior and exterior life like?
0:21:23 Greg Heffley is a complicated character.
0:21:25 He’s a bit of a mess.
0:21:27 He doesn’t always do the right thing.
0:21:32 At the time that I was writing Wimpy Kid, I was reading Harry Potter, which is about
0:21:34 a boy who’s an aspirational character.
0:21:35 He’s heroic.
0:21:37 Greg isn’t heroic.
0:21:41 He doesn’t really want to hear about his best friend Raleigh’s vacation and their awesome
0:21:42 adventures.
0:21:46 He’s like a Larry David type in a way.
0:21:49 He’s very flawed, but hopefully still lovable.
0:21:54 Give me a little bit of the origin story of Wimpy Kid itself and Greg Heffley himself
0:21:58 and how you brought them to life, how long it took, etc.
0:22:01 My big dream was to become a newspaper cartoonist.
0:22:05 When I was growing up, we got the Washington Post every morning.
0:22:07 My father opened the paper to the comics page.
0:22:14 When I got up, it was already open to the far side and Bloom County and Calvin and Hobbes.
0:22:16 You had good taste in comics.
0:22:17 Yes.
0:22:19 I was like, “Well, I know where I want to be.
0:22:23 I want to be at the top of that page.”
0:22:27 In college, I created a comic strip that got the attention of the Washington Post.
0:22:33 They did a big, full-page article on the style section and said, “Hey, this is the next
0:22:37 big thing, this comic by this guy,” and I believed it.
0:22:44 Then I hit the reality of shrinking newspapers and the limits of my own talent and I couldn’t
0:22:46 break into the comics.
0:22:50 After about three years of flunking my head into the wall, I realized that it wasn’t going
0:22:52 to happen for me.
0:23:00 At the time I was keeping a journal, the journal was an organic mix of text and cartoon illustrations
0:23:04 that showed what was happening in my life at the time.
0:23:07 I looked at it and I said, “Hey, maybe I’ve got something here.
0:23:10 I can’t be in newspapers, but maybe I can be in books.”
0:23:13 I thought, “I’ll fictionalize this.
0:23:17 First, I’ll write down every funny thing that happened to me in my life as a kid.”
0:23:21 I thought I could do that in about two months.
0:23:23 Instead it took four years.
0:23:29 It was a 77-page sketch journal, but I filled it with enough ideas for five books.
0:23:34 Then, as I understand, but correct me if I’m wrong, you’re working as a game developer
0:23:40 for Pearson Education and you begin to publish some of this work online on a Pearson site
0:23:41 called FunBrain.com.
0:23:42 Is that right?
0:23:43 That’s right.
0:23:47 Thomas was looking for something to keep traffic up over the summer months.
0:23:50 He said, “Hey, I’m working on this thing.
0:23:51 It’s not really for kids.
0:23:56 It’s more like the wonder years where an adult is looking back on their childhood, but it
0:23:57 could work.”
0:24:00 I started publishing online.
0:24:06 After about a year, we had 12 million readers and a guy, a lot of encouragement from adult
0:24:11 readers who were following my almost blog-like entries.
0:24:13 Okay, and then that leads to a book contract.
0:24:15 Just walk me quickly through the mechanics.
0:24:16 What came first?
0:24:17 Was there an agent?
0:24:20 Was there a reach-out from a publisher or editor?
0:24:22 I went to New York Comic-Con.
0:24:24 I walked around with a sample packet.
0:24:29 I heard about a guy who published a webcomic called “Mom’s Cancer.”
0:24:32 I talked to the editor at a booth.
0:24:36 He said, “This is exactly what we’re looking for,” and I was off to the races.
0:24:40 You wind up publishing with Harry N. Abrams, correct?
0:24:41 Yes.
0:24:45 At the time, Harry N. Abrams would be known as an art book publisher, so those gorgeous
0:24:51 picture books that you have on your coffee table, primarily, they weren’t doing a lot
0:24:53 of this kind of thing.
0:24:58 What I really liked was that they treated books as an object to be valued.
0:25:03 They put a lot of craftsmanship into their publishing, and I thought, “If I sign with
0:25:09 Harry N. Abrams, that might elevate the work itself,” and that’s the way it’s been with
0:25:10 Wimpy Kid.
0:25:16 About two weeks after the book was published, it got on the New York Times bestseller list,
0:25:18 which was just an absolute shock.
0:25:23 I remember my wife and I were jumping up and down on our kid’s bed.
0:25:24 We just couldn’t believe it.
0:25:30 Now it’s been on the list a combined total of something like 900 weeks.
0:25:36 Let’s now talk about how you came to intersect with the Macy’s Parade.
0:25:44 In about 2010, Diary of Wimpy Kid was doing pretty well, and we had an ambitious publicist
0:25:50 named Jason Wells who said, “Hey, I think we could get a balloon in the Macy’s Parade.”
0:25:54 He approached Macy’s and said, “Hey, how about a balloon?”
0:25:59 They said, “It might not be ready for a balloon, but how about a float?”
0:26:06 The idea I remember was that there was going to be a standing Greg Hefley, and at the base
0:26:11 of the float would be a bunch of kids reading, so it would be a float to promote reading
0:26:13 and literacy.
0:26:17 That sounds a little, what’s the word I’m looking for, more reverent perhaps than the
0:26:20 Wimpy Kid brand is.
0:26:21 That’s right.
0:26:26 We said we’re going to hold out a little bit and see if we get into balloon territory.
0:26:27 Then what happens next?
0:26:34 The next year, I think I got named to Time Magazine’s Most Influential People list.
0:26:35 Congratulations in that.
0:26:37 It theoretically makes you balloon worthy.
0:26:38 Yeah.
0:26:39 Right.
0:26:40 Macy said, “Yes, please.
0:26:44 We’d like to do a giant helium balloon.”
0:26:49 My publisher was kind enough to sign on for the terms.
0:26:53 Tell me what you know about that negotiation and the terms of the deal.
0:26:58 As you can probably imagine, the terms are proprietary, so I can’t talk about that, but
0:27:01 it was a multi-year situation.
0:27:05 You pay a certain amount to get the balloon made, and then a certain amount to have it
0:27:07 flown every year.
0:27:13 That first balloon flew for three years, and then we re-upped and flew it for another three.
0:27:18 That’s really the pattern we’ve been in for now a good long time.
0:27:24 I have no idea what Macy’s deals look like with other creators if we’re standard, if
0:27:27 we have our own separate thing.
0:27:33 Has Harry and Abrams continued to basically pay for or subsidize the participation?
0:27:37 To their great credit, Abrams has continued to support the balloon.
0:27:41 This past balloon, I chipped in because, of course, I have a big stake in this as well.
0:27:44 Any idea what it costs to make it?
0:27:49 I don’t know what the actual costs are to make a balloon, but I would guess it’s somewhere
0:27:52 around a low $100,000 range.
0:27:58 I guess the big question is, how do you and your publisher think about ROI?
0:28:04 All that that implies, not just whether it extends and grows the brand and sells more
0:28:09 books and so on, but if it creates a different sort of awareness around the brand?
0:28:10 That’s a really good question.
0:28:12 We think about it a lot.
0:28:17 It’s possible that the balloon is one of the legs of a chair.
0:28:22 If you kicked out that leg, maybe the whole thing collapses.
0:28:28 The fact that Wimpy Kid is still going strong suggests that the balloon is a part of that
0:28:29 equation.
0:28:34 But there’s also some real pride that’s associated with the balloon.
0:28:38 Everybody gets to hold the string and walk down the streets of New York City.
0:28:39 What’s that like?
0:28:43 It’s nerve-wracking in a way because you’re sort of presenting yourself to the world.
0:28:47 You’re saying, “Hey, my property is worthy of being here.”
0:28:52 I remember the first few years, we would walk the balloon down the main avenue and I think
0:28:55 people were sort of scratching their heads.
0:28:56 What’s this?
0:28:57 Is this Charlie Brown?
0:28:59 Who is this?
0:29:05 Over time, one of the rewards of this has been that Wimpy Kid is sort of seeped into the
0:29:07 cultural consciousness.
0:29:11 Now, most people know what the cheese touch is.
0:29:13 Explain the cheese touch for those who aren’t familiar.
0:29:18 There’s a piece of cheese in the first book that sits under a basketball hoop and it becomes
0:29:23 an existential threat to Greg and to all of the middle schoolers.
0:29:28 Everybody’s worried about getting the cheese touch because it means certain death in the
0:29:33 middle school popularity ranking.
0:29:37 This year will be Wimpy Kid’s 14th consecutive Macy’s Parade.
0:29:43 That puts him on the all-time leaderboard, but he’s still way behind Snoopy with 43
0:29:46 differences and Pikachu with 24.
0:29:50 Kenny told me that a balloon typically lasts three to five years.
0:29:53 He is now on the third version.
0:29:57 I think we’ve gotten better and better at it and now Greg really looks exactly like
0:29:59 I’d like him to look.
0:30:00 Describe the current balloon.
0:30:08 The current balloon has Greg sort of hunched over getting ready to touch the piece of cheese.
0:30:11 So I said to Macy’s, “We really need to do something special.
0:30:13 What can we do?”
0:30:18 And they came up with an idea that the cheese itself could be in a cart or a car.
0:30:24 That’s like a motorized vehicle that could spin and sort of spew green smoke into the
0:30:28 air to make the cheese look like it’s emitting smells.
0:30:29 Let’s go back for a sec.
0:30:33 Describe the design process and how involved you are.
0:30:34 It’s really exciting.
0:30:39 It starts with a sketch and then it moves to kind of a pen and ink drawing.
0:30:45 And then Macy’s has to turn that into a 3D model, which is not so easy with my character.
0:30:47 My characters are two-dimensional purposefully.
0:30:51 I don’t have any sense of 3D space at all.
0:30:56 And so the first time we saw a wimpy kid balloon was the first time we saw Greg Hefley articulated
0:30:58 in three dimensions.
0:31:00 He has a butt.
0:31:05 In the early days with Macy’s, I’d go down to Hoboken, New Jersey, and there would be
0:31:08 a clay model waiting for me.
0:31:10 The clay was still pliable.
0:31:14 And then we would make changes on the fly with a really skilled artist.
0:31:19 It would spin around on a pole so we could see it from every angle and really imagine
0:31:23 what it would look like from the street level.
0:31:28 Since Jeff Kinney’s first wimpy kid balloon, the Macy’s Parade Studio has moved from Hoboken
0:31:31 to nearby Monarchy, New Jersey.
0:31:36 And rather than clay, balloon modeling now is done with 3D printers.
0:31:39 Coming up after the break, let’s go to Monarchy.
0:31:42 Welcome to Macy’s Studios.
0:31:43 I’m Stephen Dovner.
0:31:45 This is Freakonomics Radio.
0:31:57 We’ll be right back.
0:32:03 Will Koss, the parade’s executive producer, met us at the Macy’s Parade Studios in Monarchy,
0:32:07 New Jersey, just a few miles across the Hudson River from Manhattan.
0:32:09 This is our 3D printing room.
0:32:12 So this is Diary of a Wimpy Kid.
0:32:16 We’re looking at a three-foot plastic model of Greg Hefley.
0:32:20 We’ve got our character here actually laying on the table at the moment.
0:32:27 But if he was sitting in flight position, he’d be pointing at the stinky cheese, which will
0:32:30 be preceding him down the line of March.
0:32:34 We are inside a sprawling brick and glass building that from the outside looks like
0:32:41 an office building, but inside it’s a 72,000 square foot warehouse with 44-foot ceilings
0:32:44 and a variety of workshop stations.
0:32:48 It’s also a little bit noisy.
0:32:53 The floor that we’re standing on right now is our fabrication floor.
0:32:58 As we walk through, Koss points out some floats under construction, including a new float
0:33:00 representing the Bronx Zoo.
0:33:07 So we’ll have giraffes, we’ll have tigers, we’ll have gorillas, birds.
0:33:12 These giraffes and tigers are not real the way they would have been back in the beginning.
0:33:19 Every element that you see here being sculpted by our very, very talented artists start as
0:33:20 a block of foam.
0:33:26 We’re going to walk over to meet the legend himself, Mr. John Cheney.
0:33:29 Good to see you.
0:33:31 I brought some friends to talk to you.
0:33:36 John Cheney is a carpenter who has worked on nearly 50 Macy’s parades.
0:33:42 I came to New York and I wanted to be an artist, so I went to the Art Students League and in
0:33:47 a few months I started running out of money, but my dad used to always have the parade on
0:33:52 and I met some girl who wanted to work in the costume shop, so I said, “I’ll just walk
0:33:56 over to Macy’s and see what’s happening.”
0:34:02 Fifty years ago it was a lot different than all the paperwork now.
0:34:08 They had this hiring rail, we got up to the rail, and there were all these kids around
0:34:14 with very nice suits and everything, and I got ripped up jeans and a t-shirt on.
0:34:18 I said, “I want to work the parade,” and that’s how I got hired.
0:34:22 And how does it feel for Cheney to work year round on something that will be seen for just
0:34:23 one day?
0:34:30 Well, millions of people see it, so the exposure is really great, but there is something mind
0:34:36 boggling about doing all this work for one night and setting it all up to one day and
0:34:38 now taking it down.
0:34:40 I guess that’s part of the pressure.
0:34:46 You have this incredible deadline, and we work all night in the beautiful weather because
0:34:50 we don’t even dare say that out of the words.
0:34:53 The week before is maybe the hardest time.
0:34:57 It’s like getting into the water, you know, once you’re in there, damn it, we’re doing
0:34:58 it.
0:35:00 I don’t care what’s going wrong, let’s go.
0:35:06 Cheney is one of a couple dozen members of a team of carpenters, sculptors, welders,
0:35:11 electricians, costume designers, and what are called balloon technicians.
0:35:12 Here’s Will Koss again.
0:35:16 Right now we’re on the balloon studio floor.
0:35:24 This hour, balloons are flattened, they make their way over to our heat sealing tables,
0:35:32 and this is essentially a sewing machine, but instead of a needle and string, it’s actually
0:35:39 melting the two pieces together, and we actually have a balloon in process right now.
0:35:43 This is Marshall, our Paw Patrol pup.
0:35:48 Marshall is a Firehouse Dalmatian from the animated kids show Paw Patrol.
0:35:53 So Marshall is presently rigged to one of our rigging points in the ceiling.
0:36:00 At this point, he just looks like a big white round blob with no distinguishable limbs.
0:36:03 That’s because of how these giant balloons are built.
0:36:07 The head right now is the chamber that’s inflated.
0:36:13 The rest of the balloon is deflated because we’re working specifically on the head unit,
0:36:15 and that’s how all of our balloons are fabricated.
0:36:19 They’re fabricated into chambers, which gives us some flexibility.
0:36:26 We do run into a situation on parade day to quickly try to remedy that one specific area
0:36:29 without compromising the integrity of the entire balloon.
0:36:34 Jeff Kinney had told us earlier about a mishap with the Wimpy Kid balloon.
0:36:40 Yeah, I think Greg’s hand popped this last year, and it looked a little bit sad, but
0:36:41 these things happen.
0:36:47 Marshall, the Dalmatian, is a new balloon in this year’s parade, one of six.
0:36:52 All the new balloons will need to have a dry run outdoors before the parade.
0:36:56 Our volunteers, our balloon handlers, and our flight management team have an opportunity
0:37:02 to see the balloons working in real time and reacting in wind conditions and take notes
0:37:04 and prepare for Thanksgiving Day.
0:37:07 This dry run is called Balloon Fest.
0:37:11 It happens in the parking lot of MetLife Stadium in East Rutherford, New Jersey, about four
0:37:15 miles from the Macy’s Studio in Monarchy.
0:37:19 Balloon Fest is always held on the first Saturday of November.
0:37:21 Good morning, everyone!
0:37:25 Welcome to the Balloon Fest!
0:37:29 There are several hundred volunteers to handle the balloons.
0:37:33 On parade day, there will be five thousand parade volunteers.
0:37:37 Okay, I need twenty handlers!
0:37:43 The six new balloons, including Marshall and Minnie Mouse and the new Spider-Man, they
0:37:48 are already inflated and held down under a net with sandbags.
0:37:55 When the time comes, the sandbags are taken away, the nets are pulled off, and the volunteers
0:38:00 slowly unroll the thin ropes that are attached to what they call the handling bones, which
0:38:14 are plastic X-shaped grips.
0:38:18 Once the balloons are up in the air, the volunteers walk them around the parking lot.
0:38:23 Will Koss is paying close attention, everything looks good.
0:38:34 Hereby is the helium truck.
0:38:36 Here is the helium guy.
0:38:38 The trailer is about forty feet long.
0:38:42 There are twelve high-pressure steel tubes in there.
0:38:47 If you could get all the helium out of each one of those tubes, you could fill about six
0:38:49 to eight of these balloons with a single trailer.
0:38:50 His name is Kevin Lynch.
0:38:53 I’m the Vice President of Global Helium for Messer.
0:38:57 Messer is one of the big players in the helium market.
0:39:02 It and the companies it has acquired have been providing helium to the Macy’s Parade
0:39:03 for decades.
0:39:07 The helium that’s here today started in an underground helium reservoir in Amarillo,
0:39:11 Texas, and here we are filling balloons.
0:39:16 But if you put too much helium in it, that whole crew of people would be, you know, rising
0:39:17 up into the sky.
0:39:23 Lynch tells us that each giant balloon takes around 15,000 cubic feet of helium.
0:39:25 So, how much does that cost Macy’s?
0:39:31 I can’t tell you that, that’s, we can’t talk about sensitive commercial topics out
0:39:34 here.
0:39:38 The price of helium itself is not a particularly sensitive topic.
0:39:42 Helium is used widely in medical settings and elsewhere, and there’s a strong global
0:39:44 market for it.
0:39:49 Believe it or not, giant balloons consume only a tiny share of the helium market.
0:39:54 We did a rough calculation of what it would cost to fill the 17 balloons in this year’s
0:39:56 parade if you paid market price.
0:39:59 It was around $425,000.
0:40:04 I asked Will Koss if this sounded about right, but he wouldn’t take the bait.
0:40:10 I also asked him what Macy’s does about the occasional helium shortage.
0:40:13 We do have our finger on the pulse of helium.
0:40:18 It’s a market that adjusts over time, but we plan for it and have good relationships with
0:40:23 our vendors across our helium supply teams.
0:40:29 What’s your biggest concern or anxiety or, you know, the thing on your to-do list that
0:40:31 keeps you up the night before?
0:40:33 I guess I would assume the weather, but maybe I’m wrong.
0:40:36 The weather is definitely a concern for us.
0:40:43 We are a rain or shine event, so unless there’s significant weather that would impact the
0:40:45 flight of the balloons.
0:40:47 Wind, particularly, yeah.
0:40:48 Yeah.
0:40:53 Wind is one of the most potential risks on our overall parade.
0:40:55 We’ve had some snow in our history.
0:40:56 I don’t wish that on us.
0:40:59 I’ve been fortunate enough to have relatively good weather.
0:41:01 I know my time is coming at some point.
0:41:04 It’s probably good for the broadcast, though, isn’t it, snow?
0:41:11 It would look beautiful, but we do still have to get 5,000 people and 27 floats and 17 large
0:41:19 balloons down the parade route, so I’d love it to snow at 12.01 or 11.59.
0:41:25 So far, we’ve heard from the key people who create and broadcast the Macy’s parade, but
0:41:31 there’s one more partner, sort of a silent partner, without whom it could not happen.
0:41:34 If there were no permits, it would be a free-for-all.
0:41:35 I’m Stephen Dubner.
0:41:36 This is Free Economics Radio.
0:41:38 We’ll be right back.
0:41:48 Yes, there are giant character balloons drifting through the sky, and yes, there are floats
0:41:54 and marching bands, Broadway performers, but the real star of the Macy’s Thanksgiving Day
0:41:59 parade, if we’re being honest, come on, you know who it is.
0:42:00 It’s New York City.
0:42:05 My name is Dawn Tolson, and I’m the Executive Director of Citywide Event Coordination and
0:42:09 Management and the Street Activity Permit Office, and those are a lot of words.
0:42:12 Tolson has worked in New York City government for a decade.
0:42:19 Her office issues permits for many types of events, street fairs and farmers markets,
0:42:22 festivals, and of course, the Macy’s parade.
0:42:26 We told her we were trying to put together the costs of the parade, and she did give
0:42:29 us a little bit of pricing information.
0:42:34 An application fee is non-refundable, and that’s $25, and then it ranges from zero,
0:42:40 no cost whatsoever, up to something that could be 66K per block, depending on the use of
0:42:42 space and the impact.
0:42:49 The Macy’s parade uses 40 plus blocks, and it is undeniably high-impact.
0:42:56 Does that mean that Macy’s pays the city something like $3 million, 40-some blocks times 66K
0:42:57 per block?
0:42:59 Oh, I can’t say how much they pay.
0:43:01 Could try.
0:43:03 Macy’s is a partner with the city.
0:43:11 They put onto very iconic events in New York City that are birthdays and holiday events
0:43:13 for America.
0:43:17 The other one she’s talking about is the Macy’s 4th of July fireworks, which no offense to
0:43:21 fireworks is nowhere near as big a deal as the parade.
0:43:25 And so we know the importance of that, and we work with them, but I can say that they
0:43:31 do work really hard with us to make sure that we are very cognizant of the amount of resources
0:43:36 that we’re using, that we’re not overextending, that we’re also being fair to the employees
0:43:37 and the workers.
0:43:43 When Toulson talks about the resources the city is using, these are serious resources,
0:43:46 including law enforcement and emergency crews.
0:43:49 Here is Will Kos again from Macy’s.
0:43:54 The security plan is a quite detailed plan.
0:43:58 You could imagine if you were throwing a parade for three and a half million people on the
0:44:04 sidewalks and 30 million people watching a live broadcast that you would invest a lot
0:44:07 in security planning and execution.
0:44:12 There’s a variety of personnel that are visible on the parade route and other layers of security
0:44:14 that are less visible.
0:44:16 Hats off to the NYPD.
0:44:20 There are people out there that were there since 1 a.m. in the morning putting barricades
0:44:25 in place and moving vehicles around so you don’t even hear a car honking.
0:44:30 Then you’ve got counterterrorism, working with the FBI on any kind of threats.
0:44:34 You’ve got Tarrou, their technical assistance unit, who are doing the counter drone stuff
0:44:40 with the FBI, and then you’ve got the DCPI, their press group, doing press conferences
0:44:43 with their chief of departments and chief of patrols.
0:44:46 Basically you’re enacting the entire NYPD.
0:44:50 What does it cost to enact the entire NYPD?
0:44:52 How much of that comes from Macy’s?
0:44:58 The parade for all its goodwill and vibes is a commercial event, so you could imagine
0:45:02 Macy’s contributing heavily to the city services.
0:45:07 On the other hand, even if you don’t buy my argument that New York City is the real
0:45:12 star of the show, the city does get a lot out of the parade.
0:45:17 When I was a kid and saw the parade on TV, I barely noticed the floats and balloons I
0:45:20 was staring at Central Park West.
0:45:27 To a farm boy, which is what I was, the balloons and floats were cute, but the fantasy was
0:45:29 New York.
0:45:34 So does New York City kick in all those resources for free for the Macy’s parade?
0:45:39 Does the cost of the permit itself cover all these services?
0:45:44 Those are questions that no one would directly answer on either the city side or the Macy’s
0:45:50 side, and there are other city resources to talk about, other city agencies that get
0:45:51 involved.
0:45:55 We have four walkthroughs with all of those agencies, because then we’re walking the
0:45:57 route four times.
0:46:00 In New York City, the city of scaffolding.
0:46:05 There’s a lot of obstructions along the path, and so we have to walk that path to see what
0:46:10 construction is going on, what potholes are in the street, what is up above.
0:46:12 Light lamps, for instance.
0:46:16 In 1997, the parade was held on a very windy day.
0:46:21 At Central Park West and 72nd Street, the six-story tall cat in the hat balloon hit
0:46:24 a lamp post and knocked off part of it.
0:46:29 Several people were injured, including one woman who was in a coma for 24 days.
0:46:33 Macy’s and the city now work together to prevent that kind of thing.
0:46:34 Will costs again.
0:46:41 All of our balloons and floats starting up at 77th Street and all the way through 34th
0:46:42 Street.
0:46:46 That entire parade route has to be cleared of any aerial obstruction.
0:46:51 This clearing process includes what costs calls light swings.
0:46:59 We have a team to physically move all of the light poles out of the way, so they’re loosening
0:47:03 them and then we’re actually swinging all of the poles.
0:47:05 It’s done under the dark of night.
0:47:06 And Don Tolson again.
0:47:07 Sanitation.
0:47:09 We haven’t even talked about sanitation.
0:47:13 I didn’t know this until a couple years ago that there’s a special unit that deals
0:47:14 with the horse refuse.
0:47:20 This horse refuse comes from the NYPD and Parks Department mounted units that march
0:47:21 in the parade.
0:47:25 So we forgot to call them one year, it was not pretty.
0:47:30 One of our responsibilities is to clean up the horse poop.
0:47:31 That is Jessica Tisch.
0:47:35 When we spoke with her, she was New York’s sanitation commissioner.
0:47:42 We have one to two sanitation workers for every four to five horses.
0:47:45 Tisch has just been named commissioner of the NYPD.
0:47:51 As sanitation commissioner, her job was to make the parade route as photogenic as possible
0:47:56 on Thanksgiving Day from 8.30 a.m. Eastern time until noon.
0:48:01 Those streets, about 42 blocks, they need to sparkle because New Yorkers and people
0:48:08 from around the world all converge on that part of the city and we want those streets
0:48:10 to look really good.
0:48:14 After the parade is obviously a huge effort.
0:48:20 We have about 150 sanitation workers who are involved in the post parade cleanup.
0:48:27 They are doing manual cleaning with brooms and baskets, but also our mechanical brooms
0:48:34 which can sweep 1,500 pounds of litter are out in full force.
0:48:41 About 71,000 pounds of trash is collected by the Department of Sanitation as part of
0:48:46 the cleanup of the Thanksgiving Day parade.
0:48:52 Once again, we couldn’t learn anything significant about how these costs are allocated or perhaps
0:48:53 shared.
0:48:56 New York City plainly derives value from the parade.
0:49:02 There’s the marketing value of the broadcast, but also three and a half million in-person
0:49:06 spectators generate a lot of economic activity.
0:49:08 How much?
0:49:13 Those numbers too are shock of shocks, hard to come by.
0:49:18 If we began this episode hoping to run even a rough cost-benefit analysis of the Macy’s
0:49:22 Thanksgiving Day parade, we have failed.
0:49:25 Too many of the costs are privately held.
0:49:30 We can guesstimate the overall TV ad revenues, but we don’t know how that money is split
0:49:37 between Macy’s and NBC and whatever agencies or other middlemen are involved.
0:49:39 So we took one more shot.
0:49:42 We asked to speak to the man at the top.
0:49:45 Tony Spring, Chairman and CEO of Macy’s Inc.
0:49:49 So Macy’s refers to the parade as, quote, “a privately sponsored and privately funded
0:49:54 event and is regarded by Macy’s as its annual gift to the nation.”
0:50:00 I understand that as with most gifts, you don’t tell people how much the gift costs
0:50:05 when you’re giving it to them, but why is it so important that no one knows how much
0:50:06 the parade costs?
0:50:09 Because we’ve been trying to figure it out and really failing.
0:50:10 Why?
0:50:12 We want to know how much lying can cost to produce.
0:50:14 But I can figure that out.
0:50:16 Okay, go to the Hayden Planetarium and what did it cost?
0:50:18 I can figure that one out too, Tony.
0:50:20 I can’t figure out the parade.
0:50:23 I guarantee you, you’re bright enough, much brighter than me.
0:50:24 You can figure this out.
0:50:30 But I would like to focus more on the fact that 100 years later, 98 parades later, this
0:50:36 thing is still relevant and is a great example of if we were still marching animals up and
0:50:38 down the street, it wouldn’t be as relevant today.
0:50:43 But the fact that it evolved over time and includes a level of modernity, includes a
0:50:48 level of history, floats that have been there over the years, floats that are new this year,
0:50:51 balloons that are new this year, that is just like the fireworks.
0:50:55 I think what makes it such an amazing spectacular.
0:51:00 Okay, so the Macy’s parade is still relevant.
0:51:04 Here’s a bigger question, especially for Tony Spring.
0:51:07 Is Macy’s still relevant?
0:51:13 Coming up next time in part two of our series, Brick and Mortar Retail has been declining
0:51:18 for years and Macy’s is planning to close 150 of their stores.
0:51:23 Tony Spring took over less than a year ago and he is pushing for a renaissance.
0:51:25 At least he’s optimistic.
0:51:27 Now is the time to buy Macy’s.
0:51:34 Next time we go deep with Tony Spring and we get another view too.
0:51:39 Macy’s has a hell of a challenge over the next few years to remain upright, let alone
0:51:41 become successful as they once were.
0:51:46 We also visit Wimpy Kid author Jeff Kinney up in Massachusetts, where he is trying to
0:51:49 launch his own retail renaissance.
0:51:51 You invest in your downtown.
0:51:53 Can you change the fate of a town?
0:51:56 And I don’t know the answer to that.
0:51:58 That’s next time on the show.
0:52:00 Until then, take care of yourself.
0:52:03 And if you can, someone else too.
0:52:09 So if you’d like to learn more about Helium, be sure to follow another podcast we make,
0:52:12 the economics of everyday things.
0:52:17 Host Zachary Crockett went deep on Helium’s supply and demand in an episode that will
0:52:19 be out very soon.
0:52:22 Freakonomics Radio is produced by Stitcher and Renbud Radio.
0:52:28 You can find our entire archive on any podcast app, also at Freakonomics.com, where we publish
0:52:30 transcripts and show notes.
0:52:33 This episode was produced by Alina Coleman.
0:52:36 We also had recording help from Alexander Overington.
0:52:42 And special thanks this week to Thomas Recupero for the research paper, and to Harlan Cobin.
0:52:47 Our staff also includes Augusta Chapman, Dalvin Abouaji, Eleanor Osborne, Ellen Frankman,
0:52:52 Elsa Hernandez, Gabriel Roth, Greg Rippen, Jasmine Klinger, Jason Gambrell, Jeremy Johnston,
0:52:57 John Schnarrs, Lyric Bowditch, Morgan Levy, Neil Caruth, Rebecca Lee Douglas, Sarah Lilly,
0:53:03 Theo Jacobs, and Zach Lipinski. Our theme song is “Mr. Fortune” by the Hitchhikers.
0:53:05 Our composer is Luis Guerra.
0:53:08 As always, thank you for listening.
0:53:16 When I see a crowd, I’m thinking to myself, “Wait a minute, did I issue a permit for
0:53:30 that?”
0:53:33 [MUSIC PLAYING]
0:00:12 We have a new listener survey that I would love you to take if you have the time and
0:00:13 the interest.
0:00:19 We are always trying to get better around here and feedback helps, so please go to Freakonomics.com/survey.
0:00:32 It’ll only take a few minutes.
0:00:36 I really only started paying attention to the Macy’s Thanksgiving Day parade about 10
0:00:41 years ago, when my family and I moved into the neighborhood where the parade starts and
0:00:44 where the night before they stage everything.
0:00:47 This is on the Upper West Side of Manhattan.
0:00:52 We take over two extra-wide streets to lay out the giant balloons.
0:00:57 Each balloon arrives folded up flat in its own small rolling cart.
0:01:02 It gets unpacked, unfolded, laid out on the pavement, and then comes the helium.
0:01:07 There’s a truck nearby with big helium canisters stacked horizontally on a rack.
0:01:11 Up close, the balloons are really big.
0:01:16 You see this as soon as they start drinking up some helium and puff up to full size.
0:01:22 Tonight is Wednesday, the night before the parade, Inflation Night, they call it.
0:01:26 So the balloons aren’t allowed to rise to parade height.
0:01:31 Each one has a net thrown across the top and the net is held down by sandbags.
0:01:36 If you happen to be passing by on foot, this can provide an unusual view of your favorite
0:01:44 balloon character, a bulging eyeball, a massive derriere, some very chubby fingers.
0:01:48 Many thousands of people come see the balloons on Inflation Night.
0:01:54 It is an unusual and joyful scene for the visitors and the locals.
0:01:59 For many people, myself included, it is the best New York night of the year.
0:02:04 A lot of people who live on these blocks throw Inflation Parties up in their apartments.
0:02:09 And when you look straight down out of your window, you get another unusual and wonderful
0:02:11 view of the balloons.
0:02:16 I’ve watched this whole operation for several years now, and every year, I’m a little
0:02:18 bit more impressed.
0:02:24 The parade people execute the mission with a blend of military efficiency and childlike
0:02:25 glee.
0:02:29 You can’t help but marvel at how much planning must go into it.
0:02:32 Also, how good the execution has to be.
0:02:39 Not just from the parade side of things, but from the city side and the broadcasting side.
0:02:42 And it’s not like they have weeks or even days to set up.
0:02:49 On Wednesday morning, the streets are normal, full of cars, trucks, jaywalkers, dogs, bikes,
0:02:54 and then the balloon people come and you get to see the real, up-close version of the thing
0:02:59 that everybody else has to watch on TV, in miniature.
0:03:04 The cleanup begins as soon as the last balloon enters the parade on Central Park West, and
0:03:10 by the time they reach the Macy’s flagship store down in Harold Square, our streets
0:03:14 are back to cars and trucks again, although not so many since it’s still Thanksgiving
0:03:15 morning.
0:03:19 Like I said, it’s only recently that I began paying attention to the parade.
0:03:25 I do remember it being on TV when I was a kid, but I don’t know, I guess I just wasn’t
0:03:27 a parade person.
0:03:32 Seeing it up close made me curious, and after last year’s parade, I took a look at the TV
0:03:33 ratings.
0:03:43 Holy, nearly 30 million viewers, another 3 million plus watch in person from the sidewalks
0:03:48 and grandstands, but the TV numbers blew me away.
0:03:52 As you may know, the television juggernaut these days is the National Football League.
0:03:58 Of the 100 most watched broadcasts last year, 93 were NFL games.
0:04:03 The Macy’s parade was one of the remaining 7, beaten out only by the State of the Union
0:04:04 address.
0:04:10 A TV audience of 30 million must generate a lot of ad revenue, and then I got to wondering
0:04:16 how much, and then I got to wondering how much it costs to produce the parade.
0:04:18 Simple questions, right?
0:04:21 As it turns out, not so simple.
0:04:27 Macy’s is one of the oldest department stores in the US, and it has a lot of traditions.
0:04:33 One of those traditions is not talking about the economics of its Thanksgiving parade.
0:04:38 They like to call it their annual gift to the nation, and we all know it’s not polite
0:04:45 to ask how much a gift costs, but today, on Freakonomics Radio, we ask anyway.
0:04:58 Why?
0:05:01 This is the first of a two-part series.
0:05:04 We will look into the cost of the raw materials.
0:05:06 We do have our finger on the pulse of helium.
0:05:09 We’ll look at how New York City pitches in.
0:05:13 I don’t know how you guys found me, by the way.
0:05:15 Because most people don’t know I exist.
0:05:21 We will hear from the CEO of Macy’s, who’s trying to keep an old store alive when so
0:05:23 much retail is dying.
0:05:26 I want to be perceived as giving this gift to the city and to the nation.
0:05:28 I also want to do a lot of business.
0:05:33 And we ask an industry expert what Macy’s stands for today.
0:05:35 Macy’s doesn’t stand for anything today.
0:05:41 So come along as we drink the helium and wonder if the Macy’s parade may be the most valuable
0:05:55 lesson Macy’s has.
0:06:01 This is Freakonomics Radio, the podcast that explores the hidden side of everything with
0:06:12 your host Stephen Dubner.
0:06:17 We are hardly the first people to wonder how much it costs to stage the Macy’s Thanksgiving
0:06:18 Day Parade.
0:06:24 There are published estimates ranging from around $10 to $15 million, but they’re just
0:06:29 estimates and it’s unclear where those numbers come from, which makes sense.
0:06:33 Macy’s doesn’t like to talk about it, and therefore it’s hard to even identify all
0:06:34 the costs.
0:06:38 It’s also hard to quantify the benefits.
0:06:43 Keep in mind that most of the balloons and floats in the parade are sponsored by big brands
0:06:48 that are presumably paying big money for the millions of eyeballs that will see them.
0:06:52 And the parade itself is one big ad for Macy’s.
0:06:56 But let’s start by focusing on the costs.
0:07:01 There is, of course, the expense of building and maintaining the balloons and floats.
0:07:05 There is the casting and wrangling of the marching bands and other performers.
0:07:10 And there are all sorts of city services, police and sanitation and counter-terrorism
0:07:13 that somebody’s paying for.
0:07:18 And then there are all the personnel costs for the Macy’s parade unit, which is a year-round
0:07:19 operation.
0:07:23 So we figured we might as well start at the source.
0:07:27 Will Koss, and I’m the executive producer of Macy’s Thanksgiving Day parade.
0:07:29 And what does Will Koss actually do?
0:07:35 The executive producer oversees the entire production of the parade from our balloon and
0:07:41 float design, construction fabrication, and delivery to New York City on parade day to
0:07:47 all of the logistics as it relates to shutting down three and a half miles of New York City
0:07:49 on the busiest travel day in New York.
0:07:54 Koss grew up in New York in the Bronx and he went to college nearby on Long Island.
0:07:57 I traveled really far.
0:08:00 Have you ever lived outside of the New York City area then?
0:08:02 I’ve not.
0:08:04 Koss now lives on the Upper West Side with his wife and daughter.
0:08:06 He’s 44 years old.
0:08:13 He started out as a producer for MTV, Nickelodeon, YouTube, and he got the Macy’s job in 2021.
0:08:16 But he sounds like a lifer.
0:08:21 They’re part of the tradition of Thanksgiving morning for millions of people.
0:08:22 If you love marching bands, we’ve got that.
0:08:24 If you love giant balloons, we’ve got that.
0:08:25 We’ve got floats.
0:08:27 We’ve got celebrity.
0:08:28 We’ve been a staple.
0:08:32 Whether you’re sat in front of the television or have it on in the background just using
0:08:37 us as a soundtrack to your Thanksgiving morning, we’re there.
0:08:44 Macy’s itself was founded in 1858 by Roland Hussie Macy, a former whaler from Nantucket.
0:08:51 He ran dry goods stores in Massachusetts and California before settling in New York City.
0:08:55 They sold everything from clothing and furniture to groceries and books.
0:09:02 By 1902, according to one history of the store, the human wants were few indeed that the Macy’s
0:09:04 store could not meet.
0:09:09 By 1924, the Macy’s flagship store in Herald Square was the world’s largest store with
0:09:13 over one and a half million square feet.
0:09:18 That year, Macy’s sponsored its first parade, a six-mile march through Manhattan.
0:09:25 It featured three horse-drawn floats, four professional bands, and camels, elephants,
0:09:28 and bears borrowed from the Central Park Zoo.
0:09:34 In these early days, Macy’s released big helium balloons into the sky after the parade and
0:09:37 offered a $100 reward for the return.
0:09:44 That tradition ended in 1932 when a novice pilot, going for the reward, crashed into
0:09:46 a balloon in the sky.
0:09:51 It has now been 100 years since the first parade, although this year’s addition is only the
0:09:55 98th since they took three years off during World War II.
0:09:58 The parade today looks a lot different than it used to.
0:10:03 When there are 30 million people watching on TV, appearances matter.
0:10:06 We are the largest televised variety show of the year.
0:10:10 There’s something about the work that we do that connects multi-generational.
0:10:15 It’s a responsibility that we don’t take lightly, knowing that we have that impact on
0:10:18 so many folks.
0:10:25 The demographics are far and wide and are representative of everyone that’s in New York City and America.
0:10:26 That is Jen Neal.
0:10:33 And I oversee the strategy, the creative development, and the operations for all of our live events
0:10:36 and specials across NBCU.
0:10:41 NBCUniversal is the network that has carried the Macy’s parade for 71 years.
0:10:45 Neal’s team produces roughly three dozen big live events a year.
0:10:51 Christmas at Rockefeller Center, New Year’s Eve, the People’s Choice Awards, red carpets
0:10:56 around Hollywood’s biggest nights like the Grammys, the Oscars.
0:10:58 My role focuses on the entertainment side.
0:11:03 But we have incredible teams on the sports side that do the Super Bowl and the Olympics.
0:11:09 Can you compare the production and coverage of the parade to the Super Bowl?
0:11:13 Obviously, with the Super Bowl, there are many, many, many elements and features and
0:11:14 so on.
0:11:21 But it is, in the end, a self-contained athletic competition on one big patch of turf, whereas
0:11:28 the parade is this roving, multi-mile extravaganza through New York City.
0:11:33 There’s incredible complexity in terms of the production.
0:11:41 Each year, there are a number of elements that stay the same and each year we are evaluating
0:11:43 what we want to evolve and change.
0:11:46 Do the Broadway shows kick off the show?
0:11:49 Is it better to have them in the second or third hour?
0:11:54 A Super Bowl is incredible and there’s many dynamics that go into that, but you’re still
0:11:59 covering a football game which has the same rules and the same field of play each year.
0:12:01 What is the timeline from your end?
0:12:04 When do you start working on a given year’s parade?
0:12:09 We start looking at it right after the parade ends, truly, the week or two after.
0:12:14 In fact, this year is the 98th year of the parade and we are already talking about the
0:12:18 99th and the 100th anniversary.
0:12:23 The parade is an 18-month pre-production to execution process.
0:12:25 That’s will cost again.
0:12:31 My full Macy Studios team is over 65 full-time folks that range from our partnership team
0:12:36 to our creative team to our studio production team, logistics, project management, production
0:12:37 management.
0:12:40 The 65 number is our full-time.
0:12:43 As we get closer, we expand considerably.
0:12:47 The week before, they paint the star on 34th Street.
0:12:51 The Monday and Tuesday nights, we shut down 34th Street in front of Macy’s, we’re rehearsing
0:12:53 with all the performers.
0:13:00 Wednesday night, we’ve introduced in the last two years a countdown show to bring to life
0:13:05 the inflation of the balloons that happen magically on the Upper West Side.
0:13:10 Then Thursday, we have a call time, the day of Thanksgiving, 2 a.m.
0:13:13 And Jen, where do you spend parade day?
0:13:14 I’m in the truck.
0:13:16 I’m in the truck on parade day.
0:13:17 Which is where?
0:13:19 On 34th Street or Jason to 34th Street.
0:13:21 What’s that day like for you?
0:13:24 There’s a lot of energy, a lot of adrenaline.
0:13:28 We go live at 8.30 through noon, so it’s three and a half hours of that coverage.
0:13:33 We have preparation and contingencies and plans for every single thing that can happen
0:13:34 along the way.
0:13:42 And then I do, once every parade, take 30 seconds during a commercial break and jump out into
0:13:49 the streets and see the scale of Snoopy or the Minion or the Doughboy adjacent to the
0:13:50 buildings in New York.
0:13:51 And it’s magic.
0:13:55 It also sounds incredibly expensive to produce from your side.
0:14:01 Not just the coverage part, but the coordination and the run of show and talent and so on.
0:14:03 Can you just talk about how extensive that is?
0:14:09 We don’t really get into the cost of everything, but what I can say is we know that this is
0:14:14 incredibly valuable to our advertising partners.
0:14:19 And we know that advertising messages that are in the parade deliver stronger memorability
0:14:20 and likability.
0:14:29 I did see on the NBC Universal site a report about the power of the parade from a consumer
0:14:30 perspective.
0:14:35 It said that the year-over-year growth demonstrates that NBC Universal is moving consumers down
0:14:37 the purchase funnel.
0:14:40 What does that mean, moving consumers down the purchase funnel?
0:14:44 First, our job is we got to make sure that this is incredibly entertaining and relevant
0:14:46 and great TV.
0:14:52 And second, brands want to be associated with this because their messaging is woven in and
0:14:55 each brand takes a different strategy to do that.
0:14:57 Can you give me an example?
0:15:03 When you are a Genio turkey and you want to have a turkey float, they’re going to want
0:15:07 to talk about the number of years of the big turkey spectacular and what Genio brings to
0:15:08 you.
0:15:14 Well, the star of the Thanksgiving meal has arrived on a green and gold platter.
0:15:16 The signature colors of its gracious host, Genio.
0:15:22 If you’re the jolly green giant, you’re going to talk about Holly traditions and some of
0:15:23 those products.
0:15:30 Well, there in the valley on the farm, the green giant oversees the fall harvest, ensuring
0:15:36 that each vegetable for your Thanksgiving table is picked at the peak of perfection.
0:15:42 In other words, yes, the Macy’s Thanksgiving Day parade is a parade, but unlike a memorial
0:15:49 parade or a victory parade or a pride parade, this one is plainly a commercial venture,
0:15:50 a marketing venture.
0:15:54 If you have a Minions float, you’re definitely going to talk about Stuart the Minions and
0:15:55 the frantic bananas.
0:16:00 Ronald McDonald, Smokey the Bear, all of these are traditions and floats that have their
0:16:06 own unique messaging from forest fires to fundraising for children’s hospitals to the
0:16:32 wonder ship float.
0:16:48 We did later find an estimate from Vivex, a company that tracks commercial ad spending.
0:16:54 They report that brands spent $76 million to advertise on NBC during last year’s parade
0:16:55 broadcast.
0:17:00 Macy’s would, as the saying goes, neither confirm nor deny.
0:17:06 And that TV revenue presumably wouldn’t include money the brands pay Macy’s directly for
0:17:09 the rights to sponsor a balloon or a float.
0:17:13 Although we should say not every balloon or float is bringing in sponsor money because
0:17:16 some of them are promoting Macy’s itself.
0:17:18 Here’s Will Kos again.
0:17:25 Tom Turkey and Santa are Macy’s owned and are the iconic elements that open and close
0:17:26 the parade.
0:17:30 Okay, so there’s no royalties being paid to the Santa Claus Foundation or anything like
0:17:32 that, I assume.
0:17:36 So I want to ask you about the relationships with the brands and whatever you’re willing
0:17:39 or able to tell me about the financial relationship.
0:17:44 My wife’s favorite balloon when she was a kid, she grew up in New York, was the Pillsbury
0:17:50 Doughboy and the first year we lived on this block, when we woke up the next morning at
0:17:58 like 6 a.m. and we looked down it’s just this magical site with the sunrise off the balloons
0:18:03 and there was the Doughboy and we could see like the patches his butt was taped a little
0:18:06 bit and it was just so beautiful and endearing.
0:18:11 And I thought, wait a minute, is that still the Pillsbury Doughboy, does Pillsbury still
0:18:12 even exist?
0:18:16 Then I started to think about Snoopy and I thought about Snoopy I knew was the emblem
0:18:20 of MetLife for a while and I thought, oh, does that mean it’s a MetLife balloon?
0:18:26 So let me just make it an open thread for you to tell me what you can about why the
0:18:32 balloons that are in the parade are in the parade and how that relationship works.
0:18:39 Pillsbury Doughboy, Snoopy, our peanut characters, SpongeBob SquarePants, the goal with all of
0:18:45 our balloons is to create a moment that’s instantly recognizable in the sky as it relates
0:18:48 to selection of balloon.
0:18:53 The most important goal is to ensure that each of the characters resonates with our audiences
0:18:55 and our audiences 1 to 100.
0:19:01 So we have some of those we’ll call them legacy characters and then we have new characters
0:19:04 that are appealing to a much younger audience.
0:19:09 And Will, what if someone like me came to you and I said, hey, Will, I’ve got this brand
0:19:11 Freakonomics Radio.
0:19:15 In some ways it’s a pretty big brand, but you know, it’s kind of like a big niche brand.
0:19:17 It’s not Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles.
0:19:19 It’s not, you know, Spider-Man.
0:19:20 I recognize that.
0:19:25 But I’ve also got a pretty beautiful visual image, what we call an orple, right?
0:19:28 It’s an apple that you cut open and it’s an orange in the middle and it’s, you know, it’s
0:19:29 fruit.
0:19:30 Who doesn’t like fruit?
0:19:36 And I think it would be worth my while to try to figure out how to get my brand in front
0:19:37 of the world.
0:19:41 These 30 million people are watching on TV, these 3 million that are there.
0:19:44 Would you even take a meeting with me?
0:19:46 You’re taking the meeting right now.
0:19:49 You’re underselling the brand, my friend.
0:19:52 We’re open to taking every meeting and every conversation.
0:19:57 This is not an exclusive members only type of event.
0:20:02 Well, maybe not quite members only, but it is a small club.
0:20:06 This year there are 17 giant balloons in the parade.
0:20:12 Sadly, the Freakonomics Orple is not one of them, but this guy has one.
0:20:16 I pinch myself when I see the balloon fly down the main avenue there.
0:20:23 That is Jeff Kinney, an owner of an unlikely storybook store in Plainville, Massachusetts,
0:20:26 and I am the author of the Diary of a Wimpy Kid series.
0:20:32 Now for those who are children or have children who have read those books, you are somewhere
0:20:39 between, I don’t know, Jesus Christ and pick your favorite cult hero ever.
0:20:42 What’s it been like to be you these last 15, 18 years?
0:20:47 The ride for me has been a lot like the Truman Show.
0:20:52 I feel like I created this character who’s a stick figure and somehow that has propelled
0:20:56 me into the most unusual situations you could ever imagine.
0:21:01 How many books have there been now and how many copies sold globally?
0:21:04 There are 19 books in the main series.
0:21:11 I have four or five spin-off books and there have been about 295 million sold.
0:21:14 For people who don’t know the series or don’t know the character, just talk to me for a
0:21:15 minute about Greg Heffley.
0:21:16 Who is he?
0:21:20 What is his interior and exterior life like?
0:21:23 Greg Heffley is a complicated character.
0:21:25 He’s a bit of a mess.
0:21:27 He doesn’t always do the right thing.
0:21:32 At the time that I was writing Wimpy Kid, I was reading Harry Potter, which is about
0:21:34 a boy who’s an aspirational character.
0:21:35 He’s heroic.
0:21:37 Greg isn’t heroic.
0:21:41 He doesn’t really want to hear about his best friend Raleigh’s vacation and their awesome
0:21:42 adventures.
0:21:46 He’s like a Larry David type in a way.
0:21:49 He’s very flawed, but hopefully still lovable.
0:21:54 Give me a little bit of the origin story of Wimpy Kid itself and Greg Heffley himself
0:21:58 and how you brought them to life, how long it took, etc.
0:22:01 My big dream was to become a newspaper cartoonist.
0:22:05 When I was growing up, we got the Washington Post every morning.
0:22:07 My father opened the paper to the comics page.
0:22:14 When I got up, it was already open to the far side and Bloom County and Calvin and Hobbes.
0:22:16 You had good taste in comics.
0:22:17 Yes.
0:22:19 I was like, “Well, I know where I want to be.
0:22:23 I want to be at the top of that page.”
0:22:27 In college, I created a comic strip that got the attention of the Washington Post.
0:22:33 They did a big, full-page article on the style section and said, “Hey, this is the next
0:22:37 big thing, this comic by this guy,” and I believed it.
0:22:44 Then I hit the reality of shrinking newspapers and the limits of my own talent and I couldn’t
0:22:46 break into the comics.
0:22:50 After about three years of flunking my head into the wall, I realized that it wasn’t going
0:22:52 to happen for me.
0:23:00 At the time I was keeping a journal, the journal was an organic mix of text and cartoon illustrations
0:23:04 that showed what was happening in my life at the time.
0:23:07 I looked at it and I said, “Hey, maybe I’ve got something here.
0:23:10 I can’t be in newspapers, but maybe I can be in books.”
0:23:13 I thought, “I’ll fictionalize this.
0:23:17 First, I’ll write down every funny thing that happened to me in my life as a kid.”
0:23:21 I thought I could do that in about two months.
0:23:23 Instead it took four years.
0:23:29 It was a 77-page sketch journal, but I filled it with enough ideas for five books.
0:23:34 Then, as I understand, but correct me if I’m wrong, you’re working as a game developer
0:23:40 for Pearson Education and you begin to publish some of this work online on a Pearson site
0:23:41 called FunBrain.com.
0:23:42 Is that right?
0:23:43 That’s right.
0:23:47 Thomas was looking for something to keep traffic up over the summer months.
0:23:50 He said, “Hey, I’m working on this thing.
0:23:51 It’s not really for kids.
0:23:56 It’s more like the wonder years where an adult is looking back on their childhood, but it
0:23:57 could work.”
0:24:00 I started publishing online.
0:24:06 After about a year, we had 12 million readers and a guy, a lot of encouragement from adult
0:24:11 readers who were following my almost blog-like entries.
0:24:13 Okay, and then that leads to a book contract.
0:24:15 Just walk me quickly through the mechanics.
0:24:16 What came first?
0:24:17 Was there an agent?
0:24:20 Was there a reach-out from a publisher or editor?
0:24:22 I went to New York Comic-Con.
0:24:24 I walked around with a sample packet.
0:24:29 I heard about a guy who published a webcomic called “Mom’s Cancer.”
0:24:32 I talked to the editor at a booth.
0:24:36 He said, “This is exactly what we’re looking for,” and I was off to the races.
0:24:40 You wind up publishing with Harry N. Abrams, correct?
0:24:41 Yes.
0:24:45 At the time, Harry N. Abrams would be known as an art book publisher, so those gorgeous
0:24:51 picture books that you have on your coffee table, primarily, they weren’t doing a lot
0:24:53 of this kind of thing.
0:24:58 What I really liked was that they treated books as an object to be valued.
0:25:03 They put a lot of craftsmanship into their publishing, and I thought, “If I sign with
0:25:09 Harry N. Abrams, that might elevate the work itself,” and that’s the way it’s been with
0:25:10 Wimpy Kid.
0:25:16 About two weeks after the book was published, it got on the New York Times bestseller list,
0:25:18 which was just an absolute shock.
0:25:23 I remember my wife and I were jumping up and down on our kid’s bed.
0:25:24 We just couldn’t believe it.
0:25:30 Now it’s been on the list a combined total of something like 900 weeks.
0:25:36 Let’s now talk about how you came to intersect with the Macy’s Parade.
0:25:44 In about 2010, Diary of Wimpy Kid was doing pretty well, and we had an ambitious publicist
0:25:50 named Jason Wells who said, “Hey, I think we could get a balloon in the Macy’s Parade.”
0:25:54 He approached Macy’s and said, “Hey, how about a balloon?”
0:25:59 They said, “It might not be ready for a balloon, but how about a float?”
0:26:06 The idea I remember was that there was going to be a standing Greg Hefley, and at the base
0:26:11 of the float would be a bunch of kids reading, so it would be a float to promote reading
0:26:13 and literacy.
0:26:17 That sounds a little, what’s the word I’m looking for, more reverent perhaps than the
0:26:20 Wimpy Kid brand is.
0:26:21 That’s right.
0:26:26 We said we’re going to hold out a little bit and see if we get into balloon territory.
0:26:27 Then what happens next?
0:26:34 The next year, I think I got named to Time Magazine’s Most Influential People list.
0:26:35 Congratulations in that.
0:26:37 It theoretically makes you balloon worthy.
0:26:38 Yeah.
0:26:39 Right.
0:26:40 Macy said, “Yes, please.
0:26:44 We’d like to do a giant helium balloon.”
0:26:49 My publisher was kind enough to sign on for the terms.
0:26:53 Tell me what you know about that negotiation and the terms of the deal.
0:26:58 As you can probably imagine, the terms are proprietary, so I can’t talk about that, but
0:27:01 it was a multi-year situation.
0:27:05 You pay a certain amount to get the balloon made, and then a certain amount to have it
0:27:07 flown every year.
0:27:13 That first balloon flew for three years, and then we re-upped and flew it for another three.
0:27:18 That’s really the pattern we’ve been in for now a good long time.
0:27:24 I have no idea what Macy’s deals look like with other creators if we’re standard, if
0:27:27 we have our own separate thing.
0:27:33 Has Harry and Abrams continued to basically pay for or subsidize the participation?
0:27:37 To their great credit, Abrams has continued to support the balloon.
0:27:41 This past balloon, I chipped in because, of course, I have a big stake in this as well.
0:27:44 Any idea what it costs to make it?
0:27:49 I don’t know what the actual costs are to make a balloon, but I would guess it’s somewhere
0:27:52 around a low $100,000 range.
0:27:58 I guess the big question is, how do you and your publisher think about ROI?
0:28:04 All that that implies, not just whether it extends and grows the brand and sells more
0:28:09 books and so on, but if it creates a different sort of awareness around the brand?
0:28:10 That’s a really good question.
0:28:12 We think about it a lot.
0:28:17 It’s possible that the balloon is one of the legs of a chair.
0:28:22 If you kicked out that leg, maybe the whole thing collapses.
0:28:28 The fact that Wimpy Kid is still going strong suggests that the balloon is a part of that
0:28:29 equation.
0:28:34 But there’s also some real pride that’s associated with the balloon.
0:28:38 Everybody gets to hold the string and walk down the streets of New York City.
0:28:39 What’s that like?
0:28:43 It’s nerve-wracking in a way because you’re sort of presenting yourself to the world.
0:28:47 You’re saying, “Hey, my property is worthy of being here.”
0:28:52 I remember the first few years, we would walk the balloon down the main avenue and I think
0:28:55 people were sort of scratching their heads.
0:28:56 What’s this?
0:28:57 Is this Charlie Brown?
0:28:59 Who is this?
0:29:05 Over time, one of the rewards of this has been that Wimpy Kid is sort of seeped into the
0:29:07 cultural consciousness.
0:29:11 Now, most people know what the cheese touch is.
0:29:13 Explain the cheese touch for those who aren’t familiar.
0:29:18 There’s a piece of cheese in the first book that sits under a basketball hoop and it becomes
0:29:23 an existential threat to Greg and to all of the middle schoolers.
0:29:28 Everybody’s worried about getting the cheese touch because it means certain death in the
0:29:33 middle school popularity ranking.
0:29:37 This year will be Wimpy Kid’s 14th consecutive Macy’s Parade.
0:29:43 That puts him on the all-time leaderboard, but he’s still way behind Snoopy with 43
0:29:46 differences and Pikachu with 24.
0:29:50 Kenny told me that a balloon typically lasts three to five years.
0:29:53 He is now on the third version.
0:29:57 I think we’ve gotten better and better at it and now Greg really looks exactly like
0:29:59 I’d like him to look.
0:30:00 Describe the current balloon.
0:30:08 The current balloon has Greg sort of hunched over getting ready to touch the piece of cheese.
0:30:11 So I said to Macy’s, “We really need to do something special.
0:30:13 What can we do?”
0:30:18 And they came up with an idea that the cheese itself could be in a cart or a car.
0:30:24 That’s like a motorized vehicle that could spin and sort of spew green smoke into the
0:30:28 air to make the cheese look like it’s emitting smells.
0:30:29 Let’s go back for a sec.
0:30:33 Describe the design process and how involved you are.
0:30:34 It’s really exciting.
0:30:39 It starts with a sketch and then it moves to kind of a pen and ink drawing.
0:30:45 And then Macy’s has to turn that into a 3D model, which is not so easy with my character.
0:30:47 My characters are two-dimensional purposefully.
0:30:51 I don’t have any sense of 3D space at all.
0:30:56 And so the first time we saw a wimpy kid balloon was the first time we saw Greg Hefley articulated
0:30:58 in three dimensions.
0:31:00 He has a butt.
0:31:05 In the early days with Macy’s, I’d go down to Hoboken, New Jersey, and there would be
0:31:08 a clay model waiting for me.
0:31:10 The clay was still pliable.
0:31:14 And then we would make changes on the fly with a really skilled artist.
0:31:19 It would spin around on a pole so we could see it from every angle and really imagine
0:31:23 what it would look like from the street level.
0:31:28 Since Jeff Kinney’s first wimpy kid balloon, the Macy’s Parade Studio has moved from Hoboken
0:31:31 to nearby Monarchy, New Jersey.
0:31:36 And rather than clay, balloon modeling now is done with 3D printers.
0:31:39 Coming up after the break, let’s go to Monarchy.
0:31:42 Welcome to Macy’s Studios.
0:31:43 I’m Stephen Dovner.
0:31:45 This is Freakonomics Radio.
0:31:57 We’ll be right back.
0:32:03 Will Koss, the parade’s executive producer, met us at the Macy’s Parade Studios in Monarchy,
0:32:07 New Jersey, just a few miles across the Hudson River from Manhattan.
0:32:09 This is our 3D printing room.
0:32:12 So this is Diary of a Wimpy Kid.
0:32:16 We’re looking at a three-foot plastic model of Greg Hefley.
0:32:20 We’ve got our character here actually laying on the table at the moment.
0:32:27 But if he was sitting in flight position, he’d be pointing at the stinky cheese, which will
0:32:30 be preceding him down the line of March.
0:32:34 We are inside a sprawling brick and glass building that from the outside looks like
0:32:41 an office building, but inside it’s a 72,000 square foot warehouse with 44-foot ceilings
0:32:44 and a variety of workshop stations.
0:32:48 It’s also a little bit noisy.
0:32:53 The floor that we’re standing on right now is our fabrication floor.
0:32:58 As we walk through, Koss points out some floats under construction, including a new float
0:33:00 representing the Bronx Zoo.
0:33:07 So we’ll have giraffes, we’ll have tigers, we’ll have gorillas, birds.
0:33:12 These giraffes and tigers are not real the way they would have been back in the beginning.
0:33:19 Every element that you see here being sculpted by our very, very talented artists start as
0:33:20 a block of foam.
0:33:26 We’re going to walk over to meet the legend himself, Mr. John Cheney.
0:33:29 Good to see you.
0:33:31 I brought some friends to talk to you.
0:33:36 John Cheney is a carpenter who has worked on nearly 50 Macy’s parades.
0:33:42 I came to New York and I wanted to be an artist, so I went to the Art Students League and in
0:33:47 a few months I started running out of money, but my dad used to always have the parade on
0:33:52 and I met some girl who wanted to work in the costume shop, so I said, “I’ll just walk
0:33:56 over to Macy’s and see what’s happening.”
0:34:02 Fifty years ago it was a lot different than all the paperwork now.
0:34:08 They had this hiring rail, we got up to the rail, and there were all these kids around
0:34:14 with very nice suits and everything, and I got ripped up jeans and a t-shirt on.
0:34:18 I said, “I want to work the parade,” and that’s how I got hired.
0:34:22 And how does it feel for Cheney to work year round on something that will be seen for just
0:34:23 one day?
0:34:30 Well, millions of people see it, so the exposure is really great, but there is something mind
0:34:36 boggling about doing all this work for one night and setting it all up to one day and
0:34:38 now taking it down.
0:34:40 I guess that’s part of the pressure.
0:34:46 You have this incredible deadline, and we work all night in the beautiful weather because
0:34:50 we don’t even dare say that out of the words.
0:34:53 The week before is maybe the hardest time.
0:34:57 It’s like getting into the water, you know, once you’re in there, damn it, we’re doing
0:34:58 it.
0:35:00 I don’t care what’s going wrong, let’s go.
0:35:06 Cheney is one of a couple dozen members of a team of carpenters, sculptors, welders,
0:35:11 electricians, costume designers, and what are called balloon technicians.
0:35:12 Here’s Will Koss again.
0:35:16 Right now we’re on the balloon studio floor.
0:35:24 This hour, balloons are flattened, they make their way over to our heat sealing tables,
0:35:32 and this is essentially a sewing machine, but instead of a needle and string, it’s actually
0:35:39 melting the two pieces together, and we actually have a balloon in process right now.
0:35:43 This is Marshall, our Paw Patrol pup.
0:35:48 Marshall is a Firehouse Dalmatian from the animated kids show Paw Patrol.
0:35:53 So Marshall is presently rigged to one of our rigging points in the ceiling.
0:36:00 At this point, he just looks like a big white round blob with no distinguishable limbs.
0:36:03 That’s because of how these giant balloons are built.
0:36:07 The head right now is the chamber that’s inflated.
0:36:13 The rest of the balloon is deflated because we’re working specifically on the head unit,
0:36:15 and that’s how all of our balloons are fabricated.
0:36:19 They’re fabricated into chambers, which gives us some flexibility.
0:36:26 We do run into a situation on parade day to quickly try to remedy that one specific area
0:36:29 without compromising the integrity of the entire balloon.
0:36:34 Jeff Kinney had told us earlier about a mishap with the Wimpy Kid balloon.
0:36:40 Yeah, I think Greg’s hand popped this last year, and it looked a little bit sad, but
0:36:41 these things happen.
0:36:47 Marshall, the Dalmatian, is a new balloon in this year’s parade, one of six.
0:36:52 All the new balloons will need to have a dry run outdoors before the parade.
0:36:56 Our volunteers, our balloon handlers, and our flight management team have an opportunity
0:37:02 to see the balloons working in real time and reacting in wind conditions and take notes
0:37:04 and prepare for Thanksgiving Day.
0:37:07 This dry run is called Balloon Fest.
0:37:11 It happens in the parking lot of MetLife Stadium in East Rutherford, New Jersey, about four
0:37:15 miles from the Macy’s Studio in Monarchy.
0:37:19 Balloon Fest is always held on the first Saturday of November.
0:37:21 Good morning, everyone!
0:37:25 Welcome to the Balloon Fest!
0:37:29 There are several hundred volunteers to handle the balloons.
0:37:33 On parade day, there will be five thousand parade volunteers.
0:37:37 Okay, I need twenty handlers!
0:37:43 The six new balloons, including Marshall and Minnie Mouse and the new Spider-Man, they
0:37:48 are already inflated and held down under a net with sandbags.
0:37:55 When the time comes, the sandbags are taken away, the nets are pulled off, and the volunteers
0:38:00 slowly unroll the thin ropes that are attached to what they call the handling bones, which
0:38:14 are plastic X-shaped grips.
0:38:18 Once the balloons are up in the air, the volunteers walk them around the parking lot.
0:38:23 Will Koss is paying close attention, everything looks good.
0:38:34 Hereby is the helium truck.
0:38:36 Here is the helium guy.
0:38:38 The trailer is about forty feet long.
0:38:42 There are twelve high-pressure steel tubes in there.
0:38:47 If you could get all the helium out of each one of those tubes, you could fill about six
0:38:49 to eight of these balloons with a single trailer.
0:38:50 His name is Kevin Lynch.
0:38:53 I’m the Vice President of Global Helium for Messer.
0:38:57 Messer is one of the big players in the helium market.
0:39:02 It and the companies it has acquired have been providing helium to the Macy’s Parade
0:39:03 for decades.
0:39:07 The helium that’s here today started in an underground helium reservoir in Amarillo,
0:39:11 Texas, and here we are filling balloons.
0:39:16 But if you put too much helium in it, that whole crew of people would be, you know, rising
0:39:17 up into the sky.
0:39:23 Lynch tells us that each giant balloon takes around 15,000 cubic feet of helium.
0:39:25 So, how much does that cost Macy’s?
0:39:31 I can’t tell you that, that’s, we can’t talk about sensitive commercial topics out
0:39:34 here.
0:39:38 The price of helium itself is not a particularly sensitive topic.
0:39:42 Helium is used widely in medical settings and elsewhere, and there’s a strong global
0:39:44 market for it.
0:39:49 Believe it or not, giant balloons consume only a tiny share of the helium market.
0:39:54 We did a rough calculation of what it would cost to fill the 17 balloons in this year’s
0:39:56 parade if you paid market price.
0:39:59 It was around $425,000.
0:40:04 I asked Will Koss if this sounded about right, but he wouldn’t take the bait.
0:40:10 I also asked him what Macy’s does about the occasional helium shortage.
0:40:13 We do have our finger on the pulse of helium.
0:40:18 It’s a market that adjusts over time, but we plan for it and have good relationships with
0:40:23 our vendors across our helium supply teams.
0:40:29 What’s your biggest concern or anxiety or, you know, the thing on your to-do list that
0:40:31 keeps you up the night before?
0:40:33 I guess I would assume the weather, but maybe I’m wrong.
0:40:36 The weather is definitely a concern for us.
0:40:43 We are a rain or shine event, so unless there’s significant weather that would impact the
0:40:45 flight of the balloons.
0:40:47 Wind, particularly, yeah.
0:40:48 Yeah.
0:40:53 Wind is one of the most potential risks on our overall parade.
0:40:55 We’ve had some snow in our history.
0:40:56 I don’t wish that on us.
0:40:59 I’ve been fortunate enough to have relatively good weather.
0:41:01 I know my time is coming at some point.
0:41:04 It’s probably good for the broadcast, though, isn’t it, snow?
0:41:11 It would look beautiful, but we do still have to get 5,000 people and 27 floats and 17 large
0:41:19 balloons down the parade route, so I’d love it to snow at 12.01 or 11.59.
0:41:25 So far, we’ve heard from the key people who create and broadcast the Macy’s parade, but
0:41:31 there’s one more partner, sort of a silent partner, without whom it could not happen.
0:41:34 If there were no permits, it would be a free-for-all.
0:41:35 I’m Stephen Dubner.
0:41:36 This is Free Economics Radio.
0:41:38 We’ll be right back.
0:41:48 Yes, there are giant character balloons drifting through the sky, and yes, there are floats
0:41:54 and marching bands, Broadway performers, but the real star of the Macy’s Thanksgiving Day
0:41:59 parade, if we’re being honest, come on, you know who it is.
0:42:00 It’s New York City.
0:42:05 My name is Dawn Tolson, and I’m the Executive Director of Citywide Event Coordination and
0:42:09 Management and the Street Activity Permit Office, and those are a lot of words.
0:42:12 Tolson has worked in New York City government for a decade.
0:42:19 Her office issues permits for many types of events, street fairs and farmers markets,
0:42:22 festivals, and of course, the Macy’s parade.
0:42:26 We told her we were trying to put together the costs of the parade, and she did give
0:42:29 us a little bit of pricing information.
0:42:34 An application fee is non-refundable, and that’s $25, and then it ranges from zero,
0:42:40 no cost whatsoever, up to something that could be 66K per block, depending on the use of
0:42:42 space and the impact.
0:42:49 The Macy’s parade uses 40 plus blocks, and it is undeniably high-impact.
0:42:56 Does that mean that Macy’s pays the city something like $3 million, 40-some blocks times 66K
0:42:57 per block?
0:42:59 Oh, I can’t say how much they pay.
0:43:01 Could try.
0:43:03 Macy’s is a partner with the city.
0:43:11 They put onto very iconic events in New York City that are birthdays and holiday events
0:43:13 for America.
0:43:17 The other one she’s talking about is the Macy’s 4th of July fireworks, which no offense to
0:43:21 fireworks is nowhere near as big a deal as the parade.
0:43:25 And so we know the importance of that, and we work with them, but I can say that they
0:43:31 do work really hard with us to make sure that we are very cognizant of the amount of resources
0:43:36 that we’re using, that we’re not overextending, that we’re also being fair to the employees
0:43:37 and the workers.
0:43:43 When Toulson talks about the resources the city is using, these are serious resources,
0:43:46 including law enforcement and emergency crews.
0:43:49 Here is Will Kos again from Macy’s.
0:43:54 The security plan is a quite detailed plan.
0:43:58 You could imagine if you were throwing a parade for three and a half million people on the
0:44:04 sidewalks and 30 million people watching a live broadcast that you would invest a lot
0:44:07 in security planning and execution.
0:44:12 There’s a variety of personnel that are visible on the parade route and other layers of security
0:44:14 that are less visible.
0:44:16 Hats off to the NYPD.
0:44:20 There are people out there that were there since 1 a.m. in the morning putting barricades
0:44:25 in place and moving vehicles around so you don’t even hear a car honking.
0:44:30 Then you’ve got counterterrorism, working with the FBI on any kind of threats.
0:44:34 You’ve got Tarrou, their technical assistance unit, who are doing the counter drone stuff
0:44:40 with the FBI, and then you’ve got the DCPI, their press group, doing press conferences
0:44:43 with their chief of departments and chief of patrols.
0:44:46 Basically you’re enacting the entire NYPD.
0:44:50 What does it cost to enact the entire NYPD?
0:44:52 How much of that comes from Macy’s?
0:44:58 The parade for all its goodwill and vibes is a commercial event, so you could imagine
0:45:02 Macy’s contributing heavily to the city services.
0:45:07 On the other hand, even if you don’t buy my argument that New York City is the real
0:45:12 star of the show, the city does get a lot out of the parade.
0:45:17 When I was a kid and saw the parade on TV, I barely noticed the floats and balloons I
0:45:20 was staring at Central Park West.
0:45:27 To a farm boy, which is what I was, the balloons and floats were cute, but the fantasy was
0:45:29 New York.
0:45:34 So does New York City kick in all those resources for free for the Macy’s parade?
0:45:39 Does the cost of the permit itself cover all these services?
0:45:44 Those are questions that no one would directly answer on either the city side or the Macy’s
0:45:50 side, and there are other city resources to talk about, other city agencies that get
0:45:51 involved.
0:45:55 We have four walkthroughs with all of those agencies, because then we’re walking the
0:45:57 route four times.
0:46:00 In New York City, the city of scaffolding.
0:46:05 There’s a lot of obstructions along the path, and so we have to walk that path to see what
0:46:10 construction is going on, what potholes are in the street, what is up above.
0:46:12 Light lamps, for instance.
0:46:16 In 1997, the parade was held on a very windy day.
0:46:21 At Central Park West and 72nd Street, the six-story tall cat in the hat balloon hit
0:46:24 a lamp post and knocked off part of it.
0:46:29 Several people were injured, including one woman who was in a coma for 24 days.
0:46:33 Macy’s and the city now work together to prevent that kind of thing.
0:46:34 Will costs again.
0:46:41 All of our balloons and floats starting up at 77th Street and all the way through 34th
0:46:42 Street.
0:46:46 That entire parade route has to be cleared of any aerial obstruction.
0:46:51 This clearing process includes what costs calls light swings.
0:46:59 We have a team to physically move all of the light poles out of the way, so they’re loosening
0:47:03 them and then we’re actually swinging all of the poles.
0:47:05 It’s done under the dark of night.
0:47:06 And Don Tolson again.
0:47:07 Sanitation.
0:47:09 We haven’t even talked about sanitation.
0:47:13 I didn’t know this until a couple years ago that there’s a special unit that deals
0:47:14 with the horse refuse.
0:47:20 This horse refuse comes from the NYPD and Parks Department mounted units that march
0:47:21 in the parade.
0:47:25 So we forgot to call them one year, it was not pretty.
0:47:30 One of our responsibilities is to clean up the horse poop.
0:47:31 That is Jessica Tisch.
0:47:35 When we spoke with her, she was New York’s sanitation commissioner.
0:47:42 We have one to two sanitation workers for every four to five horses.
0:47:45 Tisch has just been named commissioner of the NYPD.
0:47:51 As sanitation commissioner, her job was to make the parade route as photogenic as possible
0:47:56 on Thanksgiving Day from 8.30 a.m. Eastern time until noon.
0:48:01 Those streets, about 42 blocks, they need to sparkle because New Yorkers and people
0:48:08 from around the world all converge on that part of the city and we want those streets
0:48:10 to look really good.
0:48:14 After the parade is obviously a huge effort.
0:48:20 We have about 150 sanitation workers who are involved in the post parade cleanup.
0:48:27 They are doing manual cleaning with brooms and baskets, but also our mechanical brooms
0:48:34 which can sweep 1,500 pounds of litter are out in full force.
0:48:41 About 71,000 pounds of trash is collected by the Department of Sanitation as part of
0:48:46 the cleanup of the Thanksgiving Day parade.
0:48:52 Once again, we couldn’t learn anything significant about how these costs are allocated or perhaps
0:48:53 shared.
0:48:56 New York City plainly derives value from the parade.
0:49:02 There’s the marketing value of the broadcast, but also three and a half million in-person
0:49:06 spectators generate a lot of economic activity.
0:49:08 How much?
0:49:13 Those numbers too are shock of shocks, hard to come by.
0:49:18 If we began this episode hoping to run even a rough cost-benefit analysis of the Macy’s
0:49:22 Thanksgiving Day parade, we have failed.
0:49:25 Too many of the costs are privately held.
0:49:30 We can guesstimate the overall TV ad revenues, but we don’t know how that money is split
0:49:37 between Macy’s and NBC and whatever agencies or other middlemen are involved.
0:49:39 So we took one more shot.
0:49:42 We asked to speak to the man at the top.
0:49:45 Tony Spring, Chairman and CEO of Macy’s Inc.
0:49:49 So Macy’s refers to the parade as, quote, “a privately sponsored and privately funded
0:49:54 event and is regarded by Macy’s as its annual gift to the nation.”
0:50:00 I understand that as with most gifts, you don’t tell people how much the gift costs
0:50:05 when you’re giving it to them, but why is it so important that no one knows how much
0:50:06 the parade costs?
0:50:09 Because we’ve been trying to figure it out and really failing.
0:50:10 Why?
0:50:12 We want to know how much lying can cost to produce.
0:50:14 But I can figure that out.
0:50:16 Okay, go to the Hayden Planetarium and what did it cost?
0:50:18 I can figure that one out too, Tony.
0:50:20 I can’t figure out the parade.
0:50:23 I guarantee you, you’re bright enough, much brighter than me.
0:50:24 You can figure this out.
0:50:30 But I would like to focus more on the fact that 100 years later, 98 parades later, this
0:50:36 thing is still relevant and is a great example of if we were still marching animals up and
0:50:38 down the street, it wouldn’t be as relevant today.
0:50:43 But the fact that it evolved over time and includes a level of modernity, includes a
0:50:48 level of history, floats that have been there over the years, floats that are new this year,
0:50:51 balloons that are new this year, that is just like the fireworks.
0:50:55 I think what makes it such an amazing spectacular.
0:51:00 Okay, so the Macy’s parade is still relevant.
0:51:04 Here’s a bigger question, especially for Tony Spring.
0:51:07 Is Macy’s still relevant?
0:51:13 Coming up next time in part two of our series, Brick and Mortar Retail has been declining
0:51:18 for years and Macy’s is planning to close 150 of their stores.
0:51:23 Tony Spring took over less than a year ago and he is pushing for a renaissance.
0:51:25 At least he’s optimistic.
0:51:27 Now is the time to buy Macy’s.
0:51:34 Next time we go deep with Tony Spring and we get another view too.
0:51:39 Macy’s has a hell of a challenge over the next few years to remain upright, let alone
0:51:41 become successful as they once were.
0:51:46 We also visit Wimpy Kid author Jeff Kinney up in Massachusetts, where he is trying to
0:51:49 launch his own retail renaissance.
0:51:51 You invest in your downtown.
0:51:53 Can you change the fate of a town?
0:51:56 And I don’t know the answer to that.
0:51:58 That’s next time on the show.
0:52:00 Until then, take care of yourself.
0:52:03 And if you can, someone else too.
0:52:09 So if you’d like to learn more about Helium, be sure to follow another podcast we make,
0:52:12 the economics of everyday things.
0:52:17 Host Zachary Crockett went deep on Helium’s supply and demand in an episode that will
0:52:19 be out very soon.
0:52:22 Freakonomics Radio is produced by Stitcher and Renbud Radio.
0:52:28 You can find our entire archive on any podcast app, also at Freakonomics.com, where we publish
0:52:30 transcripts and show notes.
0:52:33 This episode was produced by Alina Coleman.
0:52:36 We also had recording help from Alexander Overington.
0:52:42 And special thanks this week to Thomas Recupero for the research paper, and to Harlan Cobin.
0:52:47 Our staff also includes Augusta Chapman, Dalvin Abouaji, Eleanor Osborne, Ellen Frankman,
0:52:52 Elsa Hernandez, Gabriel Roth, Greg Rippen, Jasmine Klinger, Jason Gambrell, Jeremy Johnston,
0:52:57 John Schnarrs, Lyric Bowditch, Morgan Levy, Neil Caruth, Rebecca Lee Douglas, Sarah Lilly,
0:53:03 Theo Jacobs, and Zach Lipinski. Our theme song is “Mr. Fortune” by the Hitchhikers.
0:53:05 Our composer is Luis Guerra.
0:53:08 As always, thank you for listening.
0:53:16 When I see a crowd, I’m thinking to myself, “Wait a minute, did I issue a permit for
0:53:30 that?”
0:53:33 [MUSIC PLAYING]
The 166-year-old chain, which is fighting extinction, calls the parade its “gift to the nation.” With 30 million TV viewers, it’s also a big moneymaker. At least we think it is — Macy’s is famously tight-lipped about parade economics. We try to loosen them up. (Part one of a two-part series.)
Please take our audience survey at freakonomics.com/survey.
- SOURCES:
- John Cheney, carpenter at Macy’s Studios.
- Will Coss, vice president and executive producer of Macy’s Studios.
- Jeff Kinney, author, cartoonist, and owner of An Unlikely Story Bookstore and Café.
- Kevin Lynch, vice president of global helium at Messer.
- Jen Neal, executive vice president of live events and specials for NBCUniversal Media Group.
- Tony Spring, chairman and C.E.O. of Macy’s Inc.
- Jessica Tisch, commissioner of the New York City Department of Sanitation; incoming commissioner of the New York City Police Department.
- Dawn Tolson, executive director of Citywide Event Coordination and Management and the Street Activity Permit Office for the City of New York.
- RESOURCES:
- Macy’s: The Store. The Star. The Story., by Robert M. Grippo (2009).
- History of Macy’s of New York, 1853-1919: Chapters in the Evolution of the Department Store, by Ralph M. Hower (1943).
- Macy’s Thanksgiving Day Parade.
- EXTRA: