658: 160k Talking About Australian Fantasy Football

0:00:05 A hundred sixty grand talking about Australian fantasy football now you know nothing warms
0:00:10 my heart more than listener success stories and for some odd reason the more obscure the
0:00:15 niche the better right so today’s guest started a podcast on the side from his teaching job
0:00:20 not about football not about even fantasy football but about a very specific flavor
0:00:26 of fantasy football for a very specific flavor of football that being Australian rules football
0:00:30 that’s a niche within a niche within a niche if I’ve ever heard of one it’s a really fun
0:00:34 illustration of how you can monetize just about any area of interest from the keeper league
0:00:41 podcast and keeper league pod.com.au have your lock welcome to the side hustle show thanks Nick
0:00:44 for having me it’s a absolute pleasure to be here I’ve been listening to this show for probably
0:00:48 five years now and got plenty of good ideas so it’s pretty exciting to come on here and be
0:00:52 able to kind of you know maybe help some other people get some ideas and doing similar sorts
0:00:55 of things with their side hustles I’m excited to learn as well stick around to hear how
0:01:00 have built his audience from the ground up and the different ways he’s monetized this online
0:01:04 business over the years now if you’re interested in starting a podcast of your own make sure to
0:01:10 download my podcast starter kit with resources on choosing the right software and equipment my
0:01:15 production process marketing your show and of course all the different ways that podcasts can
0:01:22 make money that’s at sidehustle nation.com/heff or just follow the show notes a link in the episode
0:01:27 description and I’ll get you right over there but take me back to the beginning the side hustle
0:01:34 days of like hey I know why don’t we start a podcast about this keeper league flavor of fantasy
0:01:41 football. So yeah it dates back to 2018 just after I had my son at the time I was teaching full
0:01:46 time I’d been about probably I know five six years into my teaching career and I wasn’t really sure
0:01:51 if that’s what I wanted to do full time if that’s the thing that kind of you know filled my desires
0:01:56 I guess I thought it was when I started but you know once you kind of hit that sixth or seventh
0:02:01 year it starts to become a bit of a grind I guess so I was listening to a lot of podcasts at the time
0:02:06 it was probably my favorite thing to do was after work go home go for a walk and listen to a podcast
0:02:11 and because I was listening to so many podcasts it’s basically just I wanted to start my own
0:02:17 I’ve always been a fan of audio and technology I guess my job was teaching music and technology
0:02:22 really and a lot of that was around kind of studio recording teaching kids how to use microphones
0:02:26 record bands and things like that and I’ve always had a bit of a studio set up at home so I thought
0:02:31 why does might as well put it’s a good use start a podcast and here we are about six years later.
0:02:38 Here we go time time flies here so was anybody else covering this topic or were there multiple
0:02:42 different topics that you considered before saying now this is the keeper league is going to be the
0:02:48 one no it’s we never actually really went elsewhere we’ve had our fantasy league and our keeper league
0:02:53 what we’ll call it we’ve had that going for since about 2013 so like you know five years before we
0:02:57 started the podcast and it’s something that we just talked about on whatsapp groups and group chats
0:03:00 every day anyway and it’s kind of the one thing that we’ve we felt like we just knew the most
0:03:03 about we could talk about like a you know we could talk about a few hours type things that’s
0:03:09 like your listeners in in the USA are probably very familiar with draft fantasy like NFL draft
0:03:14 NBA draft and that sort of thing where we go like different I guess is like we play what we call a
0:03:19 keeper league and I think it’s sometimes known as a dynasty league over in the USA as well is like
0:03:24 where you keep players from year to year so instead of picking a new team each year it’s
0:03:28 kind of built like you’re actually like a a team coach or a team manager and you’ve got to think
0:03:32 about at the end of the year who you’re cutting who you’re delisting who you’re trading to other
0:03:36 players in your leagues and then you yeah you do a draft and you pick up the new younger players
0:03:41 and stuff like that so we found that there was no one else talking about that version and we
0:03:45 figured like if we’re that we’re not the only ones in the country that are playing this format
0:03:49 because you know I got the idea from another person and we figured there must be more people
0:03:53 out there doing what we do and it’s been pretty interesting to kind of hear the way different
0:03:57 listeners were we’re doing it like on spreadsheets and stuff like that just totally different ways
0:04:01 people have been doing it but yeah we figured that no one else was doing it that way and
0:04:06 you know I want to start a podcast that was like a niche topic that no one else was really doing
0:04:11 and yeah so we thought we’d run with it and give it a go well I like this niche selection of well
0:04:15 what do you never get tired of talking about hey we were you know we had this group chat going
0:04:20 for years and it was just something that you enjoyed doing and kind of finding this white
0:04:25 space in the market where nobody else is really covering it in the way that we would want to
0:04:31 cover it and you know it’s kind of an upcoming trend towards this keeper league format or this
0:04:36 dynasty type of format and you know those two things kind of combine you know with maybe the
0:04:42 combination of well I already have some level of you know audio production knowledge or interest
0:04:47 or experience and they’re like okay we can kind of find the at the center of all of those concentric
0:04:54 circles is you know this keeper league podcast so what happens next record an episode launch it
0:04:59 to the world instantly internet famous what what’s going on in the early days of the show
0:05:02 not quite not quite internet famous I don’t think we’ve actually reached internet famous yet to be
0:05:09 honest but maybe one day that’s in the pipeline but no we recorded it at my friend’s house around
0:05:14 his dining room table at the time with my audio background like I had decent microphones I kind
0:05:19 of understand acoustics in spaces and stuff like that so how to make things sound good even in the
0:05:24 worst areas we recorded our first episode just kind of introducing ourselves I think we gave
0:05:28 five players each that we think because the whole the whole premise of the podcast is not
0:05:33 talking about the superstars that everyone already knows about and that everyone always talks about
0:05:37 we talk about the next up and coming guys in the fantasy world type thing or guys that haven’t
0:05:41 even played yet they’ve just been drafted haven’t played a game or they’ve been playing in the reserve
0:05:46 leagues to try to get into the main team and to the A team type thing and kind of following those
0:05:50 type of guys so we picked five guys each and we just kind of talked about players that weren’t
0:05:54 really well known okay fantasy I mean AFL fantasy and so that was the kind of premise of the first
0:05:58 podcast and I think because the audio quality was so good like quite often you hear like new
0:06:03 podcasts come up and the audio quality is not good and it can be sometimes a bit jarring to
0:06:06 actually listen to and stuff like that but I think that was probably the main thing like the fantasy
0:06:09 world kind of oh what’s this new podcast we’ll have a listen to it and it’s like oh it actually
0:06:14 sounds professional and so what actually happened was the the guy who runs the official AFL fantasy
0:06:18 podcast for that salary cap version he actually retweeted it and said hey great new podcast good
0:06:25 to see the fantasy community growing and he did a did a retweet and then he actually DM’d the page
0:06:29 on our twitter page and said like great work love the podcast let me know if there’s anything I can
0:06:33 do to help promote it and this is a guy like I’ve been listening to for warning his name is I’ll
0:06:36 I’ll mention his name on the podcast because he’s actually become a really good friend of mine
0:06:40 since doing it but this is a guy I was listening to since I was in high school you know I’m just
0:06:44 following the youtube content or whatever well okay so it was actually like a bit of a I was kind
0:06:49 of starstruck at the time when he kind of got in contact supported the show yeah um so yeah that
0:06:53 was probably the first bit of traction and then you know from there we’re probably getting a few
0:06:57 hundred listeners per week just on the back for our first kind of season just on the back of um
0:07:02 yeah the the main AFL fantasy guys kind of supporting us and retweeting our stuff and
0:07:07 kind of promoting us to the to the wider world I guess okay so did you see some you know download
0:07:13 growth as a result of this retweet or is that I don’t know sometimes you feel like hey you know
0:07:17 with or your boat on social media but I didn’t really move the needle no I think we did I think
0:07:20 I actually did because um but I’m talking like we probably went from like a hundred listeners to
0:07:25 maybe 400 listeners you know like not a huge amount but hey you even find first hundred people to
0:07:29 listen to the show is not nothing correct well that was the assumption that there was enough people
0:07:33 out there playing this format and the kind of at the time and I think it still is like the twitter
0:07:38 I guess the twitter sphere um the x-phere now whatever you want to call it it was where these
0:07:41 people were hanging out I guess talking about because it’s the information you know like people
0:07:44 were going to training and they’re seeing who’s like playing in different positions and stuff
0:07:47 like that and they’ll tweet that to the world and that’s kind of where the community was hanging
0:07:53 out so I think you know having that there was pretty pretty handy but like on the back of that
0:07:58 though then the following year the AFL fantasy platform the official one because it’s like
0:08:02 kind of hard to explain but like before when we were doing this there was no like real official
0:08:06 platform we could play this kind of fantasy on people were either running out on spreadsheets or
0:08:11 we were hacking other platforms kind of doing half on a spreadsheet and then inputting our
0:08:15 teams to these other platforms to kind of play it in a certain way so okay there was no real way
0:08:21 to play it so the big kind of move I guess happened at the end of that season where AFL actually moved
0:08:27 to put keepers into their platform and so they wanted some content around that what is a keeper
0:08:31 league how do you play them what are some strategies what are we looking for all that sort of stuff
0:08:35 and they actually came to us to write some content for the official league website so if you’re
0:08:41 thinking of like you know mba.com nfl.com in america it’s like the equivalent in australia wow yeah
0:08:46 yeah yeah okay so by virtue of being you know one of the only voices in the space is well we need
0:08:51 we want to add this there’s a growing interest or demand of people wanting to play this but we don’t
0:08:55 know what the first thing about or we need some qualified people to come and write for it write
0:08:59 about it for us correct so that’s how it kind of started so they I think ended up writing four or
0:09:05 five articles over five weeks that went on the official AFL website which probably I would
0:09:10 know the numbers but I’d say millions of people I view that in australia so that got some decent
0:09:15 traction there and um yeah since then like you know we’ve done live shows with the official AFL
0:09:20 fantasy people even though we’re not part of the official AFL world or signed to a contract with
0:09:23 them or anything they’ve brought us on to kind of open for their their live shows that they do and
0:09:27 stuff like that and just do like a 10 15 minutes and stuff so we’ve actually moved into like
0:09:31 doing live shows and things like that um yeah so they’re probably like the the main things that
0:09:36 have kind of built traction over the years I guess no that makes a lot of sense it’s it’s I
0:09:40 mean it’s marketing 101 it’s like go where the you know go where the cash is already flowing go
0:09:46 where the the customers already are and in this case you know the official fantasy podcast the
0:09:51 official fantasy platforms if you can get on their radar and kind of you know get exposure to that
0:09:57 audience in an organic way obviously that’s going to be a huge growth driver and I like your point
0:10:02 about well you know the audio quality had to be respectable had to be good enough that people
0:10:07 wouldn’t immediately just dismiss the show as two dudes and you know sit around their kitchen table
0:10:11 and I think that’s probably one of the things that has changed over the last 10 12 years of
0:10:18 podcasting where early on especially in my case you know people were willing to forgive less than
0:10:23 stellar audio and and you know I’ll take ownership of that I’ve made some steps to try and improve
0:10:28 that over the years but it’s becoming a more competitive landscape in people’s earbuds so
0:10:32 trying to step up the production quality a little bit yeah absolutely and the fact that we’d known
0:10:36 each other like the main guy I started with K’s his name is we’ve known each other since we were
0:10:41 little kids as well so everything was very natural the chemistry that sort of stuff yeah all those
0:10:45 few bits and pieces as well as like just doing something that no one else was doing I think
0:10:49 is what probably set it apart the most yeah that it’s helpful to find some some blue space but
0:10:54 also helpful to you know make it entertaining for people tuning in I think that makes sense
0:11:00 since you’re in studio are you doing YouTube syndication with it as well or primarily audio
0:11:05 initially it was primarily audio and I think it was about when TikTok came around so it was a pretty
0:11:12 similar time I kind of realized the the importance of video as well mainly more so just for like
0:11:16 Instagram reels or TikTok videos essentially like essentially is where we kind of started
0:11:20 just even taking clips from the podcast or just doing two camera kind of pieces and things like
0:11:24 that talking about certain players initially yeah it was audio only and then the more I kind of
0:11:29 looked at what the big people were doing in the in the space it was very much leaning towards
0:11:34 video so spend a lot more time investing in video I think we started with GoPro just mounted to our
0:11:39 mic stand so not the worst video quality but not the best either but it was a bit of a pain to
0:11:44 sync up all the high quality audio with the GoPro footage and all that sort of stuff so we did kind
0:11:48 of move toward buying some decent cameras camera switches monitors just looking around at all the
0:11:53 stuff I’ve got lights in here and that’s kind of where the the money that we generated from
0:11:58 we’ll talk about the guest the way we drive money and monetization and stuff in a second but
0:12:01 that’s kind of what all that money went to is to buying all the equipment and stuff like that to
0:12:07 kind of just keep producing quality content and keep improving in that space I guess more with
0:12:12 Heff in just a moment including how he monetized the show after just a few episodes and everything
0:12:18 that comes with a keeper league podcast membership today friends don’t let friends overpay for
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0:13:24 sitting in a conference in Santa Barbara and the presenter asked this question are you working
0:13:29 on your business or are you working in your business and at that point I had already quit my job I
0:13:35 saw myself as a full-time entrepreneur but it was this moment of clarity that no I’m still very much
0:13:40 working in the business so when I got back home that’s when I made my first full-time hire it was
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0:14:38 show terms and conditions apply hiring indeed is all you need all right how many episodes or years
0:14:44 or let’s talk about the monetization side before you start to you say like well this is something
0:14:49 I love talking about but now I’ve got equipment expenses you know I how do I justify continuing
0:14:54 to do this so it talked to me about what what you did to monetize the show it kind of happened by
0:14:58 accident so we’re doing all this talk on players that not many people know about and I guess the
0:15:02 key thing with a lot of fantasy and anyone who plays it in any format agrees is like having
0:15:06 data and statistics is very key like you can watch them as many games you want but sometimes you
0:15:11 don’t see the whole picture and don’t see everything unless you’re seeing kind of all the stats and
0:15:16 everything so because we’re talking about guys that aren’t even playing in the main leagues yet or
0:15:20 that haven’t even played a senior game they’re only playing high school football or it’s a bit
0:15:25 different over here they’ve kind of got like underage kind of talent academies and stuff like
0:15:29 that that they go play in I guess but like you’re not seeing them on TV or anything like that it was
0:15:33 very hard to actually kind of understand who was good and who was who wasn’t good and all that sort
0:15:38 of stuff and who was suited for fantasy and that sort of stuff so I kind of began scaring the internet
0:15:43 and looking for stats and data and stuff like that on players and I found a few um few sources online
0:15:47 that kind of had individual games um for for players and stuff like the stats there but it
0:15:52 wasn’t kind of collated into a nice easy to use format where you could kind of track these players
0:15:55 and have a look so what I essentially did was found a way to kind of bring them all into a
0:16:01 spreadsheet using um power query um like a Microsoft XL program and that way then I could
0:16:05 work out like what players average what their high scores were what their low scores were what their
0:16:10 trends were which players track in right directions which kind of players play certain roles that tend
0:16:14 to fantasy scoring all that sort of stuff so essentially just built this kind of big data
0:16:19 warehouse of underage stats okay kind of what we call reserve stats so the guys who aren’t playing
0:16:23 the main leagues they’re playing the reserves leagues reserve stats so we could actually just
0:16:27 like look at it and go this guy averaged this kind of number at this level and if he was playing AFL
0:16:32 that might indicate he would be averaging similar type thing at that level type thing and no one
0:16:36 else really had that kind of data at the time so our podcast was quite like renowned for having
0:16:42 this data that no one else had I guess so what kind of happened was um I was like well why don’t
0:16:47 people wanted to release it and we’re looking at Patreon and stuff at the time so I thought that
0:16:51 might be a good way to kind of give people something without having to do a heap of extra work
0:16:56 was just put the data on the Patreon so I was literally uploading the spreadsheet as an attachment
0:17:01 to Patreon kind of you know weekly or whenever I had some new data or whatever I would chuck it up
0:17:06 there and the users would download it started at $2 a month but I think in the first month we had
0:17:12 about a hundred people sign up at $2 a month so that kind of is how we started I guess funding
0:17:17 the uh the podcast and started to you know build on our equipment there I guess okay and this is
0:17:22 almost you know right out of the gate or this is several months down the road when when does this
0:17:26 probably a couple months two or three months in I reckon we started the end of the year once the
0:17:30 preseason got to full swing so yeah probably about two or three months in we started doing that and
0:17:34 that’s kind of how we kind of generated or monetized for the first year or so and I think we had a
0:17:39 we built it up to a five dollar tier and I don’t think there was anything else added in um other
0:17:43 than you just wanted to support the show more and quite a few people signed up to that as well so
0:17:48 kind of generating you know not heaps but enough to kind of pay for our um pay for our hosting
0:17:52 platform and then I think by the end of the year we maybe bought a couple GoPro’s to kind of sit on
0:17:57 there sit on the mic stands and record us while we did it yeah do you think you are still around
0:18:02 that like 400 listeners an episode audience size at that time yeah probably for that first year
0:18:07 the funny thing with our podcast is so it’s a it’s kind of difficult to kind of keep relevance
0:18:12 because in the preseason everyone’s getting ready to draft everyone wants to know about the new
0:18:15 players whatever but once you hit the draft there’s not a lot you can do with your teams
0:18:20 in this format you kind of draft a big squad of players and then it’s locked for the rest of the
0:18:26 year type thing so yeah we have like a huge influx of listeners um in the preseason so like when I
0:18:30 say 400 listeners it probably averages out through that over the year but we could be getting a few
0:18:35 more and we do get a lot more in the preseason than we do after the kind of season starts because
0:18:38 that’s when everyone starts playing there’s not a lot you can do with your teams got it no I was
0:18:43 just gonna say I like was really impressed with okay we got a hundred signups after we put this
0:18:48 offer out into the world and if we only have 400 people listening we had a 25% offer to conversion
0:18:53 rate like I mean I get that it’s a low ask like two bucks a month for this you know early early
0:18:57 patreon level but that’s still that’s great that you had a listener base that was willing to support
0:19:02 you and take action well you say that 25% because it’s actually like it’s remained pretty consistent
0:19:08 about that 25% I think if not even more conversion rate can when you compare it to podcast listeners
0:19:13 throughout I guess I’ll build on how I expand we expanded from there so um with the with the
0:19:18 patreon with the patreon thing I guess um it was uh like they do take a bit of a cut like in another
0:19:24 life I should have been like a um a computer programmer or a um software developer but I’ve
0:19:28 always had this passion for technology and um learning coding languages and I’ve always wanted
0:19:33 to build websites so it was a bit of a project for me to kind of build our website with and build
0:19:38 in a payment gateway and you know and essentially it’s just wordpress um with a plugin on it that
0:19:43 kind of you know builds a membership site so I kind of went away from the patreon and um moved over
0:19:49 to our own website which is what you mentioned at the start um keepleagepod.com.au and from there
0:19:53 we kind of felt like we we found we could host a whole heap of different things not just spreadsheets
0:19:58 like we started doing our own rankings in kind of user friendly tables and stuff like that and
0:20:03 people could adjust things and stuff from there um started hosting bonus podcasts from there as
0:20:06 well so you could do extra episodes I know you could you do this with patreon but I guess it was
0:20:11 more just like a a project to um to kind of help me build a website and stuff like that instead of
0:20:17 charging monthly we just charge charge a yearly subscription type thing so um I guess that kind
0:20:21 of helped because instead of people signing up for one or two months at the start just to kind of
0:20:25 scrape all your resources and stuff like that they sign up for a full year and I guess that helped
0:20:29 kind of build the um conversion rates a little bit higher as well from there especially for
0:20:33 something so seasonal where it’s like okay I got it for my you know draft period and now well
0:20:37 why am I still paying this every month but yeah I’m blocking in for the year don’t have to think
0:20:40 about it they don’t see that on their statement until the following year or say hey your renewal
0:20:44 is coming up like yeah I want to keep playing yeah I want the latest update so yeah it makes sense
0:20:48 yeah because we’re finding like people could literally sign up a few days before their draft
0:20:53 to the patreon grab everything off there for that we’ve done for the whole pre-season and then
0:20:57 yeah cancel again so we moved to the website made it a yearly subscription instead I think
0:21:01 worked better for everyone and it did work out cheaper for those who were committed and were
0:21:05 staying long time because we’d actually charge less per month but more in full if that makes sense
0:21:10 and then from there like really like we’ve kind of just gone way deeper on the I guess um software
0:21:15 development kind of developed a few apps like a mock draft simulator um that is specific for
0:21:20 keeper league so a lot of people have mock draft simulators but in Australia especially up until
0:21:24 recently we were the only one that had one that you could remove players from specific to your
0:21:28 league so you could just kind of mimic how your league looks which players are already kept and
0:21:32 then you can practice drafting with only the players um that are left in the in the draft pool
0:21:37 and we’ve also built this I’ve also built this new tool called um community rankings where it’s
0:21:41 like it’s kind of like a game where you get presented like three options three players
0:21:45 and you’ve got to choose which player you would prefer in a keeper league and the kind of responses
0:21:50 from that kind of build a full list of rankings for users to use just basically on the community
0:21:55 sentiment type thing and so the members kind of you know for the free version you get the top 100
0:22:00 players but then the if the paid version that the members get the full version of every player in
0:22:04 the league and how the community ranks them type thing um and then of course we’ve got our own
0:22:10 rankings and stuff on top of that too so yeah and this might be a little more of a of a technical
0:22:18 challenge to build out but like is there a way to claw out the the keeper league from AFL like
0:22:22 people wanted to like just run their leagues on your platform is there is there an opportunity to
0:22:28 build something like that and really be the central hub for this well there was I guess because like
0:22:32 even the AFL fantasy platform once they brought keeper leagues in it probably wasn’t to the standard
0:22:37 that people wanted I guess um and just this year actually there is a new platform that’s just come
0:22:43 out called keeper fantasy um which is basically built to do for what keeper it’s called keeper you
0:22:46 know it’s for it’s for keeper leagues um I guess and it has caused a bit of confusion because I get
0:22:51 a lot of their emails directed at me or social media questions coming to me instead of them
0:22:55 but there’s a new platform called keeper which I’ve been involved in I guess with since the
0:23:00 inception in a bit of like a consulting kind of way um and doing a bit of marketing for them and
0:23:04 you know helping promote them as well so there would have been but probably I’m probably not
0:23:09 quite at the level to build something of that scale I’m very much a self-taught hacker I guess
0:23:13 I’m not a guy who’s studied it or anything like that so to the scale of this but there is a new
0:23:17 platform now that’s come out which I am involved in which I’m pretty happy to be because I think
0:23:22 it’s going to kind of elevate this format a lot as well okay so we switched to an annual
0:23:28 billing we switched to hosting this membership on our own platform inside the membership it’s this
0:23:34 you know collection of curated data on these up and coming reserve league or like high school
0:23:39 type of league players that are um are new you know not a lot of information out there on them so
0:23:44 it’s kind of this unique uniquely sourced to go a little bit broader for a second I think this
0:23:50 business model of selling curated or interesting data is uh is one that has been proven out you
0:23:56 know over and over again from trends to industry reports to like there’s definitely value in in
0:23:59 selling data and it’s cool because it’s one of these things where you can sell the same
0:24:03 data to a bunch of different customers it’s you know once you have a kind of
0:24:09 automated way to collect that it’s something that could be really really valuable I think on the
0:24:13 on the back of that too as well it’s not just the um it’s not just the data is one part of it
0:24:18 the self but it’s also the analysis we’ve been able to do on that data and put out the findings
0:24:23 of that as well I think has been a big part of it as well just kind of not just like this is the
0:24:26 numbers it’s like these what the numbers mean you know players playing in this position or getting
0:24:30 this many stats in this kind of spot indicates they’re playing in this position and different
0:24:35 positions can be valuable some positions are more fruitful for fantasy that sort of stuff as well so
0:24:40 kind of goes that step further as well right and then you have some members only content it sounds
0:24:45 like you’ve got the mock draft simulator and then you’ve got this community rankings component so
0:24:51 just try to build up that value stack for people who are going to sign up for this annual membership
0:24:55 is there anything else behind the p-wall there’s certain stats like this thing’s called like cba
0:25:00 analysis so like what that really means is like every time someone kicks a goal there’s a center
0:25:03 bounce so the balls bounced in the middle and the game starts again and the players that generally
0:25:08 attend the center bounce are generally the best players so if you see some of the the lesser
0:25:12 known players start going to the center bounces maybe it might be one might be two it’s always a
0:25:16 good indicator that they might be on an upward trend pretty soon so we kind of do a bit of like
0:25:20 analysis on that as well like look at those cba numbers and go hey this guy’s never been to a
0:25:24 center bounce before and he’s suddenly starting to go are they planning on using him more in this
0:25:28 position because that’s where you kind of get the most points and he might be a different position
0:25:32 that doesn’t score very well but because he’s kind of moving into another position he might start
0:25:35 being one of the better players yeah he might be undervalued in the marketplace is like the money
0:25:40 ball analogy yeah yeah correct so like a few things like that as well that are on the website too
0:25:46 very cool and what do you charge for it these days the gold membership is uh $59 Australian
0:25:51 and then the silver membership is $49 then we have a bronze membership that’s $39 which is
0:25:54 base level not a lot of people tend to sign up for that one it’s usually the silver and the gold
0:26:00 that people go for okay and then just like parsing out well at this at this tier at the silver tier
0:26:03 you only get this this and this at the goal to get everything plus you know just kind of parsing
0:26:08 out features based on those different tiers yeah yeah correct like the the gold members do get
0:26:12 slightly more like silver is definitely probably the best value one that we give away and then the
0:26:15 gold membership you get access to the mock draft simulator plus you get your name read out in the
0:26:20 podcast as well so it’s not a huge difference and we kind of did that intentionally just because
0:26:24 like it’s more for people that because the whole thing is built around support i find it’s more
0:26:30 so than just like having these you know amazing resources to kind of sell like a lot of the time
0:26:33 if i look at the numbers like throughout the year i don’t know how often some people some members
0:26:39 actually using them like i do think there is a high number of like members out there that just
0:26:43 sign up to support the podcast as well to make sure it keeps going because i do kind of say on
0:26:48 the podcast and it’s it’s so true like i can’t actually like being a bit being able to collect
0:26:53 the membership money has been basically allowed me to kind of take a day off work and you know
0:26:57 now two days and now more days off work to actually do all the stuff that i’m doing and it wouldn’t
0:27:02 be the product it was if i didn’t have the time yeah to actually put into it so i think the members
0:27:07 really understand that they kind of allow this podcast to thrive and all the bonus resources
0:27:10 and all that sort of stuff to actually thrive because if they weren’t there like i wouldn’t
0:27:15 be able to do it at the same time so a lot of the members because i’ve i’m pretty much in constant
0:27:20 interaction with my membership group especially my gold members as well i’ve got a discord group
0:27:24 and they’ve got like a members gold members only chat as well which i’m pretty active in there and
0:27:28 they kind of really understand that i think and they a lot of people are just also they don’t
0:27:31 they do get used out of the resources don’t get me wrong but they’re also there just to kind of
0:27:35 ensure the podcast survival and ensure it keeps going because there’s not a lot out there doing
0:27:40 the same type of thing that’s really cool that you’ve got the people who want to support like
0:27:44 they found enough value in this thing we love what you’re doing we want to support the show and
0:27:49 support all the the community around it and so what’s like if you’re comfortable sharing
0:27:55 like the size of the annual membership at this point yeah so right now we’ve got around 1200
0:28:00 members i’m kind of ranging about half of them a gold half of them about silver i think from there
0:28:07 as well yeah okay so doing the math that would be i’ve sworn off trying to do public math on
0:28:13 on the internet i’ll call it like a 60 thousand 65 thousand dollar a year side hustle slightly
0:28:19 less um yeah but then on the back of that like i pay all my guests that come on the show pay all my
0:28:24 riders then there’s obviously hosting fees and all that sort of stuff as well sure it does take like
0:28:30 a fair chunk out of it when you add up in the year but um at the same time you know you can kind of
0:28:35 claim a lot of stuff that you would probably be buying anyway like for microphones and stuff
0:28:40 like that that i’ve always had an interest in or you know i can claim my football tickets on tax
0:28:44 and stuff like that as well so yeah that’s right so it’s a business expense exactly so like you can
0:28:49 kind of you can kind of um yeah like it’s then the number does sound nice but then also there’s
0:28:52 a lot of expenses that go with it but then you kind of get some of it back in stuff you would be
0:28:58 spending on anyway which is kind of good as well yeah and it’s interesting because it’s like not a
0:29:05 huge audience and yes you know percentage-wise like you’ve been able to convert um a really
0:29:09 in my mind like what seems like a really high percentage of listeners into customers which
0:29:13 i think is cool i think on the back of that like the some of the resources that are on the website
0:29:17 kind of transcend the three different kind of formats like you’ve got the the classic format
0:29:21 which is the salary cap one the single season draft where you’re picking a new team each year
0:29:26 and then you got the keeper league like a lot of the stats actually kind of go beyond our kind of
0:29:31 realm of keeper leagues i guess and so that probably drives a few extra membership sales
0:29:36 because i do advertise a little bit on through the meta ad platform and stuff like that so
0:29:40 and i just basically for every um for every resource i have a have an ad for it and so i
0:29:47 think kind of target Australian rules football fans afl fantasy fans all that sort of stuff target
0:29:52 those kind of demographics and so i think you do get a few extras which is probably why the um
0:29:57 the listener rate to membership conversions look so good i guess got it got it yeah so if it was
0:30:01 just the podcast itself um and this is what people always ask me like how do you make money off of
0:30:06 podcast um and if it was a podcast itself it probably wouldn’t make any money you know um it’s
0:30:12 just having the website there that kind of you can direct your listeners to to see more or understand
0:30:16 what you’re talking about in greater detail plus you get kind of the other people from the other
0:30:20 communities coming towards it because there’s some value there for them as well in some of the bits
0:30:25 and pieces of stats also yeah it took me a long time to realize that like a podcast does not a
0:30:29 business make it is you know the idea of making a full-time living just from sponsorship especially
0:30:33 in the early days of the show where the listenership was not anywhere near where it is today it’s like
0:30:39 oh this is going to be a long a long slog yeah correct um yeah and that’s uh if you have a big
0:30:42 audience there are ways to monetize we had to think of other ways to kind of do it and kind of
0:30:48 convert from there more with heff in just a moment including his meta and strategy in plans for the
0:30:54 future of the business right after this running a retail business is no joke especially if you’re
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0:31:56 without complexity shopify.com/side hustle look payday is awesome but when you’re the one running
0:32:01 payroll calculating taxes and deductions staying compliant it’s not as simple as it was when
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0:33:02 months free yeah do you see like outside of these meta ads other ways of growing the audience growing
0:33:06 the customer base like we’re doing a lot more doing a lot more work with that new fantasy platform
0:33:10 that’s coming up in our kind of ads are all over that now as a bit of an exchange for
0:33:15 the help that we’ve done but we’ve done like lots of different things really like we have had some
0:33:20 very good and generous sponsors in the past another fantasy platform that opened up for a
0:33:24 while jumped on for a couple years but we do live shows and things like that and I guess in the way
0:33:30 that kind of I’ve been starting to generate I guess more revenue streams with this is like
0:33:34 because I’ve actually just left my job teaching this year to kind of focus on this a bit more
0:33:38 and that’s not to say I’m anywhere near a level to kind of live off it full time
0:33:42 but who knows what I could do if I put more time into it but I’ve started actually like
0:33:47 doing a bit of consulting for other podcasts producing other podcasts recording other podcasts
0:33:51 helping other businesses and companies with their social media in terms of tiktok reels and
0:33:55 instagram reels and stuff like that I’ve been doing a few running a few ad campaigns through the
0:34:01 meta platform which is the second nature for me now to kind of build their websites as well so
0:34:06 it’s kind of like all the skills I’ve learned through doing this I’ve now been able to kind of
0:34:10 apply to other bits and pieces to kind of help me get to that point where I can live off doing
0:34:15 this sort of stuff full time and move away from the kind of high stress environment that is teaching
0:34:22 I guess okay so yeah starting well could I do my day job one less day a week could I do two days
0:34:26 less a week or you know now could I piece together an income from these side sources
0:34:32 whether it’s directly from the podcast business or is it you know the skills I picked up along
0:34:36 the way I think that makes sense yeah and that’s been it’s it’s been good fun like it’s something
0:34:40 I’ve always genuinely loved doing and not let’s not just say there wasn’t a point where I did love
0:34:43 teaching it just kind of I think it’s like any kind of career you do it for long enough and
0:34:47 you kind of want to move on to something new or try something else but no like this is sort of
0:34:52 stuff that I’ve you know I get to look at fantasy stats and talk about fantasy and analyze it and
0:34:56 stuff that I’ve always kind of lived and breathed or myself anyway and now I can kind of do that for
0:35:00 living plus combining my love for technology and learning new things I guess and kind of
0:35:04 helping other people you know thrive as well it’s been really rewarding I think.
0:35:10 On Facebook on Meta you know are you you’re you’re driving traffic directly to like a membership
0:35:15 sales page you’re driving traffic to like you know a free you know opt-in sampler of what the
0:35:21 membership is look like what is what’s the visitor flow. So for every page I’ve got for every like
0:35:25 what we call premium resources bonus content on our website I do have like a landing page that
0:35:30 kind of gives you a sample and even those like landing pages are pretty useful to people like
0:35:35 so you have the top 100 players to target and if you’re starting a league it’s a really good idea
0:35:39 to know what the top 100 players are so it can be helpful in that respect and then if you want to
0:35:43 get the full version then it’s signed up as a member so with my meta ads I generally target to
0:35:47 like I’ll do a video ad essentially me using the resource talking about it what you can find
0:35:52 in it and then it tracks into a landing page where they kind of get a sample of it and then
0:35:57 the next part is if they want to sign up they can continue on and sign up from there and then
0:36:01 I use the pixel and stuff like that to track conversions and stuff like that through that
0:36:05 and then you can kind of see what the marketing value is actually worth and you know you can see
0:36:09 which ads are actually converting and which aren’t which resources are in art and that sort of stuff
0:36:14 too and then you can work out whether you’re whether to put more money into advertising or
0:36:17 you know bring it back because it’s not working so well there’s lots of ways you can kind of look
0:36:21 at it from there is there a target cost of acquisition where you like to be at as close to
0:36:26 zero as possible sure but yes right now it’s if I can spend a dollar and get two back which is kind
0:36:32 of where my ads are almost at yeah it’s not too bad so I don’t know like it’s at a bit of a sweet
0:36:36 point I’m not sure if it’ll convert in the same way if I did ramp it up too much more but yeah I do
0:36:40 try to be a bit conservative with it as well like not try to spend too much but yeah kind of that’s
0:36:44 where I where I like to be no that’s and if I had a money machine where I could trade a dollar for
0:36:48 two do it all day long correct I’m not sure how much further I could push it than that I’ve tried a
0:36:52 few times but at the kind of level I’m spending I seem to get that kind of money back so you kind
0:36:58 of run into the ceiling of well how many people are actually interested in this this type of fantasy
0:37:03 league it’s so maybe the audience the total addressable market is only so big it’s so once you
0:37:08 kind of saturate that it’s like well well now what yeah correct and I think playing the classic flat
0:37:11 platform you can kind of see on the back end there’s a few a few numbers there and like ownership
0:37:16 percentages and stuff like that so I think there’s around 150,000 people playing one format which is
0:37:20 there for fantasy there’s also another version called super coach which I think has about 300,000
0:37:24 people playing but then most of those people are also the type that would do a draft and maybe do
0:37:29 a keeper league as well like if they’re not very few people I think are just playing keeper leagues
0:37:33 they’ve kind of got to keep leagues from playing these other formats and going a bit deeper but
0:37:37 they kind of keep going on the other one there so the number would probably be significantly less
0:37:42 and yeah that’s the thing I might hit a point where there are no new more players but we are actually
0:37:46 kind of pushing younger generations to actually start as well like that’s the the whole idea
0:37:51 behind the TikTok growth was to actually kind of target not target but just put it out on a
0:37:55 platform that where there is a younger generation with the keeper platform that I’m involved in
0:37:59 which is like the new fantasy platform that we’ve put together yeah and we’ve actually made it free
0:38:04 for students as well and so if you’re a high school student or a university student you get
0:38:09 access to this new platform for free and it is in my opinion and many other people opinion the
0:38:13 best for the best platform out there to do this on because it’s been custom built for it get them
0:38:19 get them hooked while they’re young yeah and do you see a future where you build out a a podcast
0:38:23 network of different shows targeting different fantasy formats or you know where do you want
0:38:28 to go with it I feel like the the space is quite saturated anyway we like especially not in the
0:38:33 keeper league space I guess but in the main kind of other fantasy formats there’s already kind of
0:38:38 a lot of people doing it in Australia and I don’t really think I really need to add a voice to those
0:38:42 kind of areas and obviously it’s honestly it’s probably not something I’m as passionate about
0:38:47 as well like I genuinely love doing this you know and if I had to do it to some of the other
0:38:51 formats which I’m not as kind of into I’m not sure if I’d kind of bring the same kind of enthusiasm
0:38:58 and make it as good as it would be I think more so like perhaps I would like to expand out into
0:39:03 kind of just producing more podcasts that aren’t maybe even related to this kind of topic as well
0:39:06 but just kind of getting from on the production side of things and maybe consulting and helping
0:39:12 other people build up their podcast and stuff like that as opposed to kind of starting the network
0:39:16 myself got it I mean that’s the risk of expanding it’s like well maybe the lighting doesn’t strike
0:39:20 twice or the magic sauce isn’t the same because you’re not as interested or excited about it and
0:39:24 like yeah there’s there’s a risk and expansion there I was going to ask mentioned hey the
0:39:28 membership is now hosted on WordPress what was the membership plugin that you’re using for that
0:39:33 memberpress which I think is a pretty popular one out there cool anything else on the tools and tech
0:39:39 side no that’s about it in terms of the tech lights the microphones I’ve got a tv behind me
0:39:43 that now that I’m doing more podcasts with other people and stuff like that I can change the branding
0:39:46 behind me which is it was a bit hard doing it before when I had posters on the wall that were all
0:39:51 football stuff and if I’m doing something about I don’t know fashion or something like that it’s
0:39:55 a bit weird to have football stuff behind me so yeah if you fancy I need to figure out how to
0:40:00 change the change the background on the closet doors back here correct yeah so yeah chuck the tv
0:40:05 behind me to do that so just a few little bits and pieces in in terms of the tech how often do
0:40:10 you publish a new episode what’s the what’s the release cadence from pretty much the start of
0:40:16 january all the way up until the end of the season which is the start of september we’ll put out one
0:40:21 episode a week one one hour episode and it’s essentially just a deep dive who the undervalued
0:40:25 players performed well and what their outlooks are for the for the rest of the season that sort of
0:40:30 stuff from that week in the preseason it’s very much just like trying to unearth all the players
0:40:35 that could be breaking out in the season or undervalued and stuff like that and we also do I’d
0:40:40 also do a bonus waiver wire podcast on monday mornings so some leagues play waivers where you
0:40:45 can pick up excess players so I kind of just do a 10-minute thing of the players I think that are
0:40:49 the valuable that are under-owned in a lot of leagues you can see the kind of ownership percentages
0:40:54 so any player that’s under 40 owned I’ll go through and just talk up a few that I think are
0:40:58 worth picking up and then yeah that’s generally the frequency once a week and then one bonus episode
0:41:02 and then kind of take take the off season off or or slow down a little bit the off season is a bit
0:41:08 funny like yeah I like I should slow down but I always find ways to kind of fill it up I guess
0:41:11 something else that I haven’t didn’t mention on the revenue stream I guess as well is um I built
0:41:18 like a I built a game in related to AFL football as well that went kind of viral last year it was
0:41:23 called footy numbers and essentially all you did you get a team and you get a number and you have to
0:41:27 guess the player that wears that number and the whole idea is to get the best streaks of how many
0:41:31 players in a row you can get right and it was just something I built to kind of learn how to use
0:41:35 JavaScript and set up applications and stuff like that and I just tweeted out on Twitter and by the
0:41:40 end of the day we had all the commentators playing it in their studios and putting out social media
0:41:45 videos and stuff we had AFL players doing it with people playing on the radio um there’s like a
0:41:50 segment on the radio and that sort of stuff so within a day that kind of went um viral as well
0:41:56 so I just put some ads on that some Google ads on that as well and um that kind of it was in it just
0:42:00 ended up earning like an extra couple hundred dollars a month as well on the back of that
0:42:04 okay okay but that’s kind of what I spent my off season doing is kind of learning ways like like
0:42:10 building things like that I can use in the either on my website for the next season or um learning
0:42:14 kind of new skills and learning new languages or learning new programs and stuff like that to
0:42:19 actually kind of enhance the podcast um I also in the off season where all the draft happens and
0:42:23 also the trades the trade period and all that sort of stuff where players switch teams so that’s
0:42:28 also pretty relevant for for our format as well because that might mean some player leaves a team
0:42:32 it’s usually a star or whatever but that means there’s an up-and-comer that might take their spot
0:42:36 in that team who could be a good fantasy player as a result so we have to kind of talk about that so
0:42:41 we do a bit of content around that in the off season um we also have the the draft whether
0:42:45 all the young players get picked up out of high school so we kind of need to know be on top of
0:42:49 all them and know which players are going to be the ones that are going to make their mark pretty
0:42:53 pretty quickly and the ones that are going to um take a while so the off season’s kind of spent
0:42:57 yeah if it feels like I should take it off but it doesn’t feel like I ever get an off season
0:43:01 you know what I mean like it feels like it just keeps going um because there’s always something I
0:43:07 can do to kind of improve or make it better or learn something new I guess and I think that’s
0:43:12 probably what your listeners and members have come to appreciate is like you you’re one of them
0:43:17 you’re in the space you’re analyzing all this stuff and it’s just from the outside looking in it
0:43:21 seems like very very underpriced it’s everything I get that it’s a hobby niche like nobody is really
0:43:25 like you know learning to make extra money maybe they win their fantasy pool or something they
0:43:32 win their league as a result of you know your information but it does seem like maybe I’m leaving
0:43:36 some money on the table by charging as little as I do that could be the case um and like well
0:43:40 there’s something to think about now that I’m probably not working full-time at the moment and
0:43:45 that might not be the case like I might have to look for a job again in the near future but we’ll
0:43:49 wait and see what happens there um that might be something that we can look at but I want to keep
0:43:54 it accessible and I don’t know like I’m always kind of fearful I guess as well that if you start
0:43:58 charging more maybe some of the people that you have do drop off as well and and the fact that I
0:44:03 guess I haven’t gone backwards any year in fact every year I’ve kind of made big inroads um in
0:44:10 terms of growth usually you know upwards 25 30% each year type thing so I guess at the at the time
0:44:14 I’m just at this time I’m just going to keep writing that until it stops really and then kind
0:44:19 of make a decision what to do from there whether I start charging more or whether I start just kind
0:44:24 of building more products to get people on board or you know spread the revenue streams out in other
0:44:29 ways um we’ll kind of you know get to that when we when we come to it but um at the moment like
0:44:34 yeah I think my listeners appreciate the kind of how accessible it is um in the way it is
0:44:39 and so I’m going to keep it at that for now anyway yeah you five six years into it what’s
0:44:43 surprised you the most along the way probably like personal stuff really like how much you kind of
0:44:50 need to not worry what other people think as much more so like if you if you stuff up the website
0:44:53 like you stuff up a page or something like that or you break one of the apps and it doesn’t work
0:44:58 and you kind of realize that a few hours later you kind of realize that like you know I used to
0:45:02 why I stress so much and worry about it and obsess over it and um think like something’s
0:45:05 broken I had to rush to my computer and fix it if I woke up in the middle of the night and realized
0:45:09 I did something wrong I’d have to rush to my computer and go fix it type thing before anyone
0:45:13 noticed it happened and I guess what surprised me like as much as like no one actually notices
0:45:18 like no one really cares that much or that I’ll get some surprise by every how lenient the community
0:45:21 is like oh yeah that didn’t work for two days and you didn’t realize but that’s okay like
0:45:27 we understand like type thing like I’ve never really had any backlash hey you you got a little
0:45:31 bit of a different audience yeah you said send an email out with a typo and your people are quick
0:45:36 to let you know yeah I think like and another thing I guess that surprised me was like I used to do
0:45:41 this with another another guy and he had to leave because of family reasons essentially um and I was
0:45:46 left on my own to kind of do this and that was a pretty kind of I guess I was really worried if I
0:45:51 could still do it on my own um and keep going with it and you know and and and what surprised me really
0:45:56 was like how much it’s grown since then and it’s not really because like I’ve changed the host or
0:46:00 anything like that it’s because I’ve been able to get more voices on the podcast as well like my
0:46:05 old co-host still comes on once a month but it’s just surprising how much the community is just on
0:46:11 board the kind of the whole brand um and I guess it kind of reaffirmed that it’s more the the content
0:46:14 and the quality of content that comes out and not just the kind of people that are on it if that
0:46:19 makes sense as well that’s great well you’re doing this full time now even though like you said the
0:46:26 income may not be at the full time level just yet but what are some of the top projects or priorities
0:46:30 for this year what are you excited about yeah basically just want to try to scale as much as
0:46:35 possible so I’m coming into like the um the busiest month I guess of the podcast in terms of membership
0:46:41 signups because the season starts in about um about a month from now it starts so um yeah it’s
0:46:45 probably the the busiest time for signups so basically I’m just excited to put out as much
0:46:49 content as I can now I’ve got at the moment I’ve got five days a week to actually put into this I
0:46:54 can put out as much content as much useful kind of resources that kind of help I guess scale and
0:46:58 drive members as much as possible well fair enough half this has been great thank you so much for
0:47:04 joining me and again KeeperLeaguePod.com.au or KeeperLeague Podcast go check them out if you are
0:47:10 an Australian fantasy football fan let’s wrap this thing up with your number one tip for side
0:47:15 hustle nation it’s never too late to learn something new I think I look back at all the stuff like I
0:47:20 didn’t know when I started this like and now fast forward five six years you know semi-literate
0:47:25 I guess in three or four coding languages can build websites I never knew I’d be able to do
0:47:29 build games that go viral build new apps to help users all that sort of stuff none of that stuff I
0:47:34 knew how to do before I started this podcast it was more about the necessity to learn it to kind
0:47:38 of move forward and I guess that’s probably the key thing for anyone out there is if you think
0:47:44 you don’t know something um or you think it’s too challenging it’s not that hard like if there’s enough
0:47:48 resources out there and you can follow instructions as well and read you know different articles or
0:47:51 even now with you know chat GPT and AI and stuff like that can really break down things and help
0:47:57 you learn even better like it’s just never too late to learn something new I reckon and I guess the
0:48:01 other the saying that I’ve always loved is if you can’t figure something out figure out how to
0:48:05 figure it out has always been a big one for me as well so like if you can’t get to the end goal
0:48:10 break it down into small steps um and try to gradually learn that way so I think that’s probably
0:48:15 my my tip for the side hustle nation absolutely no those those are great you gotta if you don’t
0:48:19 know how to figure it out we’ll figure out how to figure it out that’s that’s great and it’s
0:48:24 never too late to learn something new it’s that’s something that hits me it’s like if if you knew
0:48:27 how to do it you probably would have done it already and so it’s like well you gotta figure
0:48:32 out you gotta learn how to do it and so I know that that definitely resonates a couple takeaways
0:48:38 for me um everyone you can really see how have like lives and breathes this stuff he’s like a part
0:48:44 of the community the audience detects that it’s not like some uh you know private equity firm coming
0:48:48 in with some you know puppet co-host trying to speak the language like he’s been in it he’s
0:48:52 been in it for years um on the marketing side it’s going where the audience already is it’s
0:48:58 like these other fantasy platforms these other shows like trying to bring some of those listeners
0:49:04 and players into your ecosystem and and try and be that helpful resource and I mean guesting on
0:49:11 podcasts another way uh to pick up more podcast listeners really like the idea of selling data
0:49:16 and to have some point about selling it alongside some analysis or just you know numbers are one
0:49:20 thing with like well what you know in our quote unquote expert opinion what is that what do the
0:49:25 numbers mean so like that idea of selling data I like the idea of a smaller show having some kind
0:49:30 of membership community where it’s like on a you know a cost per thousand listener bases like
0:49:36 sponsorships may not make a ton of sense but if we can bring our community together with some
0:49:40 compelling offers behind the membership paywall I think that makes a lot of sense
0:49:45 plus you know recurring revenue in exchange for recurring value I definitely all like like all
0:49:52 of that if you’re interested in starting a podcast of your own a challenging medium to grow but a
0:49:56 really powerful one like we’ve both experienced like for relationship building and all that
0:50:01 I want to invite you to download my podcast starter kit it’s got resources on choosing
0:50:06 your right uh software and equipment for recording uh what my production process looks like after we
0:50:11 stop hitting record how to market your show how to climb that listener pyramid so to speak
0:50:15 and all the different ways the podcasts can make money again that’s at side hustle nation
0:50:21 dot com slash heff heff or you can just follow the uh show notes link in the episode description
0:50:26 and I’ll get you right over there big thanks to heff for sharing his insight thanks to our sponsors
0:50:30 for helping make this content free for everyone you can hit up side hustle nation dot com slash
0:50:35 deals for all the latest offers from our sponsors in one place thank you for supporting the
0:50:40 advertisers that support the show and that’s it for me thank you so much for tuning in if you’re
0:50:45 finding value in the show I’d love your help in spreading the word easiest way to do it is just
0:50:51 fire off a text message to that friend of yours who could benefit from hearing this maybe that’s
0:50:54 your friend who’s got you know an obscure hobby that you know maybe they should start a podcast
0:51:00 about until next time let’s go out there and make something happen and I’ll catch you in the next
0:51:03 edition of The Side Hustle Show. Hustle on.