#755: Hugh Jackman and Esther Perel

0:00:06 I don’t know about you guys, but I’ve had the experience of traveling overseas and I try to access something say a show on
0:00:12 Amazon or elsewhere and it says not available in your current location something like that or
0:00:15 Creepier still if you’re at home and this has happened to me
0:00:18 I search for something or I type in a URL
0:00:24 Incorrectly and then a screen for AT&T pops up and it says you might be searching for this
0:00:32 How about that and it suggests an alternative and I think to myself wait a second my Internet service provider is tracking my searches
0:00:34 And what I’m typing into the browser
0:00:40 Yeah, I don’t love it and a lot of you know I take privacy and security very seriously
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0:01:07 This was something that I got wrong for a long time your activity might still be visible as in the example
0:01:09 I gave to your internet service provider
0:01:12 Incognito mode also does not hide your IP address
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0:05:10 At this altitude I can run flat out for a half mile before my hands start shaking
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0:05:22 Me
0:05:32 Hello boys and girls ladies and germs this is Tim Ferriss
0:05:37 Welcome to another episode of the Tim Ferriss show where it is my job to sit down with world-class performers
0:05:45 From every field imaginable to tease out the habits routines favorite books and so on that you can apply and test in your own lives
0:05:51 This episode is a two-for-one and that’s because the podcast recently hit its tenth year anniversary
0:05:56 Which is insane to think about and past one billion downloads to celebrate
0:06:03 I’ve curated some of the best of the best some of my favorites from more than 700 episodes over the last decade
0:06:08 I could not be more excited to give you these super combo episodes and internally
0:06:13 We’ve been calling these the super combo episodes because my goal is to encourage you to yes
0:06:19 Enjoy the household names the super famous folks, but to also introduce you to lesser-known people. I consider
0:06:26 Stars these are people who have transformed my life and I feel like they can do the same for many of you
0:06:30 Perhaps they got lost in a busy news cycle. Perhaps you missed an episode
0:06:32 Just trust me on this one
0:06:38 We went to great pains to put these pairings together and for the bios of all guests
0:06:47 You can find that and more at tim.log/combo and now without further ado, please enjoy and thank you for listening
0:06:56 First up Hugh Jackman an Academy Award nominated Golden Globe and Tony Award winning performer
0:07:02 Whose roles include Professor Harold Hill in Broadway’s The Music Man Revival
0:07:08 Jean Valjean in 2013’s major motion picture adaptation of Les Mis
0:07:14 and Wolverine in the Marvel Cinematic Universe films a role which he will reprise in the upcoming
0:07:21 Deadpool and Wolverine you can find Hugh on Instagram at the Hugh Jackman
0:07:28 What books if any come to mind, I know you read a lot. Hmm. Have you gifted the most to other people?
0:07:33 Hmm. I learned this from a great man of mine Billy Shaw who’s often known as Saint Billy
0:07:37 Runs no kid hungry share our strength. You know that organization
0:07:44 I do. Yeah, they’re incredible. So he came over to my place one day and he gave me two books that I now gift
0:07:49 Very regularly one is E.B. White’s here is New York
0:07:55 And the other one is David Foster Wallace’s speech. This is water his commencement speech
0:08:01 I’ve heard you talk about the David Foster Wallace one. So I know you know that I said, oh, I haven’t read either of these and he said man
0:08:03 I learned a long time ago
0:08:06 It’s really nice to give books, but it can be a burden to give a big book
0:08:14 Because people feel like I’m gonna see I’m gonna see him in a month. Oh, I’m having dinner with him next week and share him with the book
0:08:21 But like the David Foster Wallace is a 15 minute book and the E.B. White book here is New York
0:08:23 The New York had had a program
0:08:27 close world war two where they were invite the greatest writers in the world to come to New York and just
0:08:30 They’d pay them for three months just to write essays about New York
0:08:34 So that was his and it’s amazing to read
0:08:41 A 1949 account of New York and how much of the spirit still resonates now
0:08:46 So that’s the little book that anyone who lives in New York or likes New York
0:08:51 I give and in terms of fiction and this completely breaks the rule to him because this is a long book
0:08:57 But I was gifted it actually uh by Gary Hart senator Gary Hart who I played in a movie
0:08:59 The over story by Richard Powers
0:09:04 I’m not sure if you read that but that’s the most transformative bit of fiction I have read in a long time
0:09:08 I need to read it. It’s been recommended so many times
0:09:12 It’s sitting on my Kindle and I started reading it. I remember it read for about a half hour and it said
0:09:16 Whatever it said point zero zero one percent complete and I went oh my god
0:09:21 How big is this book nice big and stick with it for those who don’t
0:09:27 Know the book. Could you give it a just a quick description? It’s Richard Bowes. I believe it won the Pulitzer
0:09:30 I think it did it’s a piece of fiction
0:09:34 Weaving about eight storylines of humans
0:09:37 but what you realize that the
0:09:43 The misdirection of the book is by the end you realize the book is completely about trees
0:09:47 So we might relegate trees or nature to some
0:09:50 Five or ten percent of our awareness
0:09:57 And this book what it does is draws you in in these incredible human stories and these very varied characters and their
0:10:02 Bearing degrees of interaction with nature in various different forms
0:10:06 But by the end you realize the book actually the main character the book is trees
0:10:09 is nature
0:10:11 And it completely reverses
0:10:15 The way you look at the world when you walk outside now. I promise you
0:10:21 After you read that book Tim you will sit in your backyard and you’ll notice things you have never noticed before
0:10:25 I mean, all right. My complacency has been called stick with it
0:10:29 It works on you in the way nature does it’s patient
0:10:34 And it’s in no rush to it’s low and it’s steady and it’s true
0:10:43 Could you describe your meditation practice and what you feel are the main benefits that are derived from that practice?
0:10:44 Sure
0:10:50 I was introduced to meditation when I was at drama school and it was a form of transcendental meditation
0:10:57 There’s lots of different types of of meditation just very briefly. It involves the use of a mantra which you are given
0:11:00 which you repeatedly sound and
0:11:06 The very basic concept is that the nature of our minds is to always
0:11:10 Be working or always be thinking and the trick to life is not letting that
0:11:13 Mind be your master, but to let it be a servant
0:11:18 Then it’s an incredible thing once it’s running the show and you know, it’s very easy to get off track
0:11:22 So during this period of meditation you are given a mantra
0:11:24 which was described to me as
0:11:27 The mind is often called the monkey mind and eastern philosophies
0:11:32 So monkey is very energetic and if not given something to do will be mischievous
0:11:36 So the mantra is like basically saying to the monkey mind
0:11:40 I need you to climb to the top of that telegraph pole and when you get to the top
0:11:42 I need you to climb back down and when you get to the bottom
0:11:46 I need you to climb back up and when you get to the top I need you to climb back down
0:11:51 So it’s just giving this activity so the mantra or this word that is silently
0:11:54 repeated ends up
0:11:56 fading away and
0:11:58 The best way I can describe it is
0:12:04 The effect that it has on me. I mean sometimes I fall asleep by the way, which is totally fine
0:12:06 and clearly what my body needed but
0:12:09 when you first pour a glass of water
0:12:11 it’s cloudy
0:12:17 And then in a period of time that all settles and you see crystal clear through the glass through the water
0:12:21 That’s what meditation does for me. It’s got that feeling where
0:12:25 Things drop down. I have a feeling of coming home
0:12:29 The feeling of experiencing my true self and not just being caught up
0:12:32 in the monkey mind or
0:12:38 Being reactive to life and it gives me a finer energy. I don’t always get out of meditation
0:12:39 like
0:12:40 ready to
0:12:46 Do a one-hour Peloton class, but I always come out with a finer energy. My intention feels clearer
0:12:49 My listening is more purposeful and
0:12:52 Things feel easier and more connected
0:12:58 Do you meditate then twice a day in these? I guess one might consider the the traditional
0:13:04 Tm format and if you meditate in the afternoons or later in the day, how do you time that for yourself?
0:13:11 I always did it twice a day four years. So I started, you know when I was 23 I’m 51 now. So
0:13:14 I did it very regularly
0:13:18 twice a day and about three or four years ago. I kind of
0:13:25 Let go of the duty element there was and I can be guilty of this. This is good for you. Should be doing this
0:13:31 Don’t fall off that wagon. You know, it’s a slippery slope. So and once I let go of that too, I I’ve just had
0:13:33 kind of experiment with with myself
0:13:37 I was like, okay, why don’t you meditate when you really want to meditate?
0:13:42 and that has turned into a practice where it’s every morning for sure and then
0:13:48 Definitely when I’m working if I’m on a movie set or I’m working in theater, there will always be a second one
0:13:50 but sometimes
0:13:53 I’ll let the afternoon one go and when I say afternoon
0:13:58 I can’t sit down very I get restless leg syndrome. So after about four or five o’clock
0:14:02 It’s uncomfortable for me to sit for 20 minutes. So
0:14:04 I will
0:14:06 Do it around lunchtime or just after lunch
0:14:12 Could you describe your emotional energy practices?
0:14:15 and replenishing
0:14:17 approach when it comes to
0:14:21 let’s just say stage performances and stage work because it it’s really
0:14:27 Hard for me to even wrap my head around how you have that much energy output
0:14:31 Repeatedly in a given week. I know
0:14:36 In my heart that I was born to be on the stage
0:14:39 Right, it’s taken me a long time to feel the same
0:14:47 feeling on a sound stage for acting but one of my favorite movies of all time and definitely my favorite quote from a movie of all time
0:14:51 is from chariot sapphire, which I loved as a kid and
0:14:53 Eric Liddell
0:14:59 Who’s the religious runner who decides not to run on the Sabbath during the olympics? You’ve seen the movie, right?
0:15:03 Yeah, so there’s this great scene where he’s meant to be going off after the olympics
0:15:10 To do missionary work in china handing out bibles or something and his sister’s talking to him
0:15:12 She’s like
0:15:17 You got to throw away this silly running thing. We have really important work god’s work to do
0:15:23 Why are you doing this and spending time on this? You know, basically kind of accusing him of not following god’s will
0:15:26 And he just says he looks at her and he says
0:15:30 But I feel his pleasure when I run and I’ve always
0:15:34 Somehow that line it always makes me tear up just saying it
0:15:40 That’s what I feel on stage. There’s a kind of natural energy and what I keep saying to my kids actually
0:15:43 Don’t settle find that thing
0:15:46 That resonates with you in that way where you feel
0:15:52 some kind of the pleasure of the universe of consciousness like there’s some
0:15:56 Joy where you feel you can do it longer and in that way
0:15:59 It’s not such a Herculean effort
0:16:05 Although I’m going to tell you in a second. I have a bunch of sort of rituals and things that I do to make sure that I can be my best
0:16:10 But there is a natural energy that I understand other people going. I don’t know how you do that
0:16:13 But maybe that’s the same way. I don’t know
0:16:16 How you train for ultramarathons for example
0:16:19 So in terms of self care
0:16:22 On Broadway, I have a bunch of rules
0:16:25 Or when I was doing my tour, I certainly don’t drink
0:16:28 alcohol before
0:16:30 And I really limited after
0:16:33 It’s really important for me to wake up
0:16:37 Feeling in a good frame of mind rather than that feeling of catch up
0:16:40 You know that feeling if you wake up and you go I just want to go back to bed
0:16:43 Then that’s a really difficult place to be in
0:16:51 If you’ve got to perform that evening because then an anxiety comes in that you’re going to be withdrawing on reserves that are not replenishable
0:16:54 I don’t go out after
0:16:59 Inisha and I would have loved you to come and see I’m doing the music man come but
0:17:04 I never go out. That’s a blanket rule. I don’t go out with anybody partly because
0:17:09 The party I’ve just had on stage is better than anything I can imagine anywhere else
0:17:12 The other thing is I think it’s really important
0:17:15 To me to get quiet
0:17:20 To allow what has happened the energy of what has happened because there is a lot of energy
0:17:26 I think I’m the only actor I know who I can be asleep within 45 minutes after getting off stage
0:17:29 There’s something very calming. It’s like you’ve had your greatest workout
0:17:34 You have a bath that’s feeling after the bath after a great workout in the evening
0:17:38 Where you just can sit and be at peace with yourself that I love so
0:17:44 A limited amount of coffee I have just because you’re battling dehydration with stage work all the time
0:17:48 I know what my routine is before I go on stage and I’m religious about it
0:17:50 And that’s more about quieting my mind
0:17:52 I don’t ever want
0:17:58 My monkey mind saying oh you didn’t do your warm-up today or you only half did it or this or that you haven’t stretched
0:18:01 You haven’t done that you didn’t really eat very well today. You might be you know
0:18:03 My mind can easily pick up on that
0:18:05 The perfection side of me
0:18:09 I always take a minute before I go on stage literally before
0:18:14 To pause and just connect with the senses. So even if I’m not
0:18:17 In the opening of a show I will stand in the wings
0:18:22 I first of all like to just listen to that titter of excitement as people come in
0:18:29 To the theater because I love the theater myself and I remember that and it reminds me of how
0:18:35 Privileged I am and how much I owe every single audience member at every single show
0:18:42 They’re not coming in to see my fourth show of the week. They’re coming to see the show for the first and probably only time in their life
0:18:45 So you who knows what they’ve sacrificed to get there. So
0:18:48 I really take that minute and then I fall still
0:18:51 and
0:18:53 Remind myself that
0:18:56 This is all in service of something
0:19:01 I say all kind of matter me in the mark, which means I dedicate this
0:19:03 Show or whatever it is
0:19:08 To the service of the absolute that there is something beyond the show some
0:19:12 Reason we’re doing this same for your show, you know, there’s got to be a reason beyond
0:19:19 Just what the immediate thing is there and that just connects me to that. I’m pretty quiet during the day
0:19:21 when I do a show
0:19:23 and
0:19:25 the other thing I really try to do is
0:19:30 Read and listen to other stuff. I had a great acting teacher lyle jones
0:19:33 He said to me goes you can’t call yourself a real actor
0:19:36 unless you expose yourself to ballet
0:19:38 and classical music and
0:19:43 David adam writ like you should be so inquisitive and curious and
0:19:49 Find inspiration from surprising places could be a walk in the woods, but that stuff feeds you so that
0:19:57 In the act of performing which is very much giving out you have enough energy there and stores, I suppose
0:19:58 There’d be the main things
0:20:04 I’d love to ask about your dad if that’s possible and I have a specific example
0:20:07 That jumps to mind and this is from a piece
0:20:14 Some time ago in good housekeeping so I want to give credit where credit is due but the quote here and feel free to correct it
0:20:15 This is from you
0:20:20 I remember at one point being in a fellowship and everyone used to wear the fish symbol that said you’re a christian
0:20:21 So I asked my father dad
0:20:25 Why don’t you wear that at work and he said your religion should be in your actions?
0:20:30 Yeah, he said a great great example. Could you speak to what?
0:20:32 impact your father or
0:20:36 Family had on you in terms of of lessons learned
0:20:41 Yeah, I’m glad you mentioned that story that actually came to mind a couple of days ago
0:20:44 My dad, you know when people talk about the oh my father always told me this
0:20:49 There weren’t many times the dad would come up with a sentence like
0:20:52 But there’s a few I remember
0:20:56 You cannot over invest in education. That’s one he would say to us
0:20:59 And he says if you are ever in doubt of what to do
0:21:03 Go and learn more. He’s what he would say
0:21:06 your actions that one he was
0:21:08 I actually now remember it. It was
0:21:12 We grew up very religious. My father was converted by Billy Graham
0:21:18 And my mother and father I think went to the Billy Graham crusade and my father was not religious at all and became a born again christian
0:21:21 My mother did not that was one of the
0:21:24 Things actually I think they’ll you know brought the end of their marriage
0:21:29 They sort of went down different paths. My dad was not a bible basher
0:21:34 He rarely talked about it and I remember saying dad because I was really about 13 14
0:21:40 I was really in school church groups fellowship groups and and I got one of those stickers
0:21:44 That you put on the back of the car and I said dad we should put that like we meant to do that
0:21:45 We meant to
0:21:51 Spread the word and do this and when he said that to me. I was disappointed. I thought he was copying out
0:21:54 But only later did I realize that when he said
0:21:59 People should know you’re a christian through your actions. He’s so much more powerful
0:22:03 If someone eventually comes up to you and says, you know, there’s something about you, man
0:22:06 I don’t know what it is, but I’d love to know
0:22:10 Where I can get it then there’s an opening but someone
0:22:16 People have noticed how you act is far stronger than what you say and we all know that
0:22:21 I often speak a little more about my dad in interviews because my mom left when I was eight
0:22:25 So I was brought up from that moment on primarily by my dad
0:22:29 So I got a lot of those lessons as I was growing into a man
0:22:33 With him being around but my mom I always remember her saying she says it to this day
0:22:36 Everyone needs to feel appreciated
0:22:40 It doesn’t matter what they do. It doesn’t matter who they are
0:22:43 That’s a need in everybody
0:22:45 and
0:22:49 I sort of have extrapolated that out to being people need to be seen
0:22:52 I’ve learned a lot of that from brunet brown
0:22:57 They need to be seen for who they are and appreciated for what they give
0:23:04 And I’ve seen my mother in particular and my father do that and that’s something we were all taught
0:23:06 So it has become a natural thing
0:23:08 I’d love to ask about
0:23:14 Journalism or communications. This is maybe gonna seem strange. I just remember what it was about my dad
0:23:17 Oh fire away. Let’s go there. Stickler on ethics
0:23:20 If you get an invitation
0:23:21 to go
0:23:23 Go across the road to your mates place
0:23:28 For dinner and then an hour later you get an invitation from the Queen of England
0:23:31 to go to the Buckingham Palace
0:23:33 You stick by your first one
0:23:37 It was just a stickler on ethics. You keep your word even if it does not
0:23:40 Benefit you
0:23:45 You always keep your word that was big one. My dad was always big on ethics and the other beautiful one
0:23:50 I remember when my because his relationship didn’t work out and it was a big source of pain for him
0:23:54 You know, he shared with me. It was a real feeling of failure for him
0:23:57 around his marriage
0:24:03 And when things start to take off from me with X men he very rarely offered advice at all about parenting nothing
0:24:09 Even when I asked him for advice at one point I had an opportunity to be in a tv show
0:24:11 I got cast in a tv show and at the same time
0:24:18 I got a spot at a very revered acting school in Australia to West Australian Academy performing arts and over the weekend
0:24:20 I had to choose. Do I go on neighbors?
0:24:22 which
0:24:26 Collym and I guy peers mugger Robbie, you know, all these people that was the breeding ground
0:24:33 Or do I go and study for three years? I asked my dad on the Friday. I said dad. I don’t know what to do
0:24:38 I need your help and and I was 22 at the time and he said I can’t answer that for you
0:24:41 And I was really
0:24:44 Anyway, by the sunday it was clear to me
0:24:49 I wanted, you know, obviously his lesson about education had sunk in and so I went no, I need to go
0:24:51 and study
0:24:56 Because I want to feel that not only do I belong on a tv series
0:25:02 Set but I can also audition for the Royal Shakespeare Company in in England
0:25:07 And so and I didn’t feel I had that before I studied so I went off and studied and when I told dad the decision
0:25:10 He I remember he said he goes, oh, thank goodness
0:25:14 I said you knew and he goes of course on you. I said couldn’t you just
0:25:18 Save me this grief the last few days and told me and he goes man. He says you’re a man
0:25:22 You have to make those decisions on your own now
0:25:24 As a father, I have a 20 year old
0:25:29 I don’t know if I’d be able to hold my tongue if I could see it so clearly go right don’t go left
0:25:35 To be able to hold back. That was another great bit of advice at the end of drama school
0:25:40 Did you make a contract with yourself about pursuing acting and could you speak to that, please?
0:25:43 Damn your research is good
0:25:45 So I
0:25:49 Had worked. I don’t know how many jobs I graduated drama school at 26. So
0:25:55 gas station attendants I dressed up in a koala suit for the national parks and wildlife foundation
0:25:59 That’s a tall koala. Oh, yeah, totally
0:26:04 Yes, I’ve been punching the kidneys by 14 year olds, you know the whole thing
0:26:07 And yes, I told him to fuck off for all of that, you know
0:26:10 uh restaurants
0:26:12 The thing I learned
0:26:18 From working in all those jobs that if you start a business, it could be a pizzeria. It could be a bar a restaurant anything
0:26:22 You have to give it seven days a week
0:26:25 For five years and after five years you may be able to pull back a little bit
0:26:29 You may be able to be in a position where you built the brand to a certain point
0:26:31 You may have to you may be able to hire a manager
0:26:34 You may be able to hire staff to make things a little easier
0:26:37 But no one really goes into owning their own business
0:26:41 Thinking oh, this is going to be the easy life. They do it because there’s something they want to create
0:26:44 They don’t want to be told what to do and they go out and make it happen
0:26:50 And it dawned on me really only in the last semester of drama school that that’s what i’m doing
0:26:53 I’m going out there. No one’s employing me
0:26:59 In their company to be an actor and then sending me out. I have to go and rehire every time I go for a job
0:27:06 And my brand is my name. So I have to build that up and so I thought okay. What have I learned from all these jobs?
0:27:09 I’ve got to give it seven days a week. So I vowed to
0:27:12 Never wait for the phone to ring. I was going to write letters
0:27:19 I was going to start me and simon lindon my fellow mate. I graduated with we’re going to start a theater company
0:27:23 Which he did by the way. I ended up getting a job straight out of drama school. God lucky
0:27:30 But the tarama rock surface which is you know in bondi in australia still going today after 25 years
0:27:33 But my feeling was you have to drive you have to work
0:27:36 You cannot be a victim. You cannot wait for the phone to ring
0:27:40 You have to go out and generate and get your brand out there and get going
0:27:46 So I figured five years was the time because I was 26 so five years on like 31
0:27:50 We all hear stories of people staying too long at a party. I mean if you go to la
0:27:56 There’s just so many people who stay a good 10 years too long at the acting party, you know, and they’re like
0:27:59 I met a guy
0:28:03 My gym and he’s introduced me. He’s the guy who parks the car around the corner of his place
0:28:06 He knows someone who’s a friend of the casting agent and he’s put in a win
0:28:13 I think i’m going to get a you know that story comes out and this feeling of it’s going to happen next week and I figured 31
0:28:20 Okay, 31 if it’s not happening be stoic. By the way, thanks for ryan holiday and the stoicism all that stuff love
0:28:22 Be stoic be hopeful
0:28:26 But work your ass off, but no when it’s time to leave the party
0:28:31 So after five years at 31 I done x-men. It was all sort of happening for me
0:28:36 It didn’t happen immediately in terms of what most people think of as success, but
0:28:42 Certainly after their first five years. I did actually mentally say to myself. All right another five years and we’ll see how it goes
0:28:45 I don’t like the word career
0:28:52 Particularly when I began and I say to actors. I said I’d be wary of the word career. I said it’s not a right
0:28:58 Then you’re gonna act 98% of actors are unemployed. It’s a privilege when you get a job
0:29:01 And don’t expect there’ll always be one around the corner work
0:29:08 Your ass off as though this is the last one and you have to be at your best to get there because that’s kind of what it takes
0:29:14 So I’ll admit I don’t redo the contract anymore. What were some of the
0:29:18 best decisions that you made in the first few years of
0:29:21 Working hard patting the pavement as an aspiring
0:29:28 Slash working actor. We’ll definitely go into drama school. That was before that was a huge turning point
0:29:33 I just had also this attitude. You got to say yes to everything when you graduate just say yes
0:29:35 go for everything
0:29:40 When my agent called me and said they’re looking for someone to play Gaston and Beauty and the Beast in the musical
0:29:42 I was like, well, I’m the theater actor. I’m not a singer
0:29:45 She said, you know, I just think you should go for it
0:29:51 And me saying yes to that audition and going getting singing lessons was a huge turning point
0:29:55 I mean, you know now I’ve done a bunch of musicals and I’ve learned a lot over those years
0:29:58 But I did not think I could ever do that
0:30:00 That was a big one and doing Beauty and the Beast
0:30:03 Man in my contract
0:30:10 I think I must be the only actor in history in my contract. It said must get a singing lesson once a week paid for by the company
0:30:12 so I was a professional
0:30:17 On paper professional musical theater actor and I had to go and get singing lessons
0:30:20 Which I loved man because I was singing eight times a week in a show
0:30:25 Getting a singing lesson every week. That’s really where I learned how to sing. So that year was amazing for me
0:30:30 But this was more of a turning point. I remember when I was doing Beauty and the Beast
0:30:33 I started that getting well known for that
0:30:35 and I remember seeing
0:30:41 Something like they had a list of people. What do they do for Christmas kind of thing? They had Hugh Jackman comma singer
0:30:45 And it was up at the theater someone put it up in the theater
0:30:48 And I just remember going uh, oh
0:30:50 I’m being labeled as a singer
0:30:54 I’m an actor. This is a problem. This is going to affect me and it did become a problem
0:30:58 I couldn’t get an audition for a film because there was I don’t know about the rest of the world
0:31:05 But in Australia a kind of snobbishness about musical theater that you weren’t an actor. You were a performer
0:31:12 Stagehand, you know jazz hands and that’s not acting. So anyone in musical theater can’t act. I I couldn’t get an audition
0:31:16 Drive me crazy. So I made a choice then
0:31:19 To get out basically I’m going to get out of
0:31:25 Musical theater and I’m just going to concentrate on acting until I’ve established that then maybe I can go back to it
0:31:27 and just as I decided that
0:31:33 My agent Raymond said trevis sir trevin nan is coming to do sunset boulevard in melbourne
0:31:35 and I said I
0:31:39 I said I really want to meet sir trevin nan. He was a huge hero of mine through drama school
0:31:45 The royal shakesman company really I like huge. I really wanted to meet him. That’s who that’s really who I wanted to work for
0:31:51 But it was a musical and this was another 12 months and I thought now it’s going to be back to back musicals
0:31:56 I’m going to be even more entrenched down this path that you know is a one-way street
0:31:58 And I think back is a pretty arrogant thing
0:32:04 I bring the casting director myself and I said I need you to do me a favor and I had met I knew her
0:32:08 I said I really want to meet trevor and I want to audition for him
0:32:12 But I don’t want to do the job. She said what what do you mean? I said I really want to meet him
0:32:16 But I’ve made this decision. I’ve got to go into acting, but can you just do me a favor?
0:32:20 I just want to meet him and I want him to see me act. So
0:32:23 I went in the audition was
0:32:29 The most incredible hour I’ve ever spent I learned so much like one hour on our audition
0:32:35 He taught me so much about acting. He heard me sing and then he came and worked with me for 40 minutes
0:32:39 And I remember about halfway through that going
0:32:41 okay
0:32:43 If he gives me the part I’m going to do it
0:32:45 It doesn’t matter to me
0:32:50 If it’s a musical or not, I’ve got to work with this guy. I I feel it in my gut
0:32:54 I’ve got so much to learn from him and that was a massive turning point. I got the part
0:33:00 I learned an incredible amount from him. He then went on to cast me in Oklahoma in London
0:33:02 and
0:33:07 Really working with him gave me the confidence to be able to take on the world stage
0:33:09 I’m not sure I would have had the confidence to do that before him
0:33:12 but I suppose the lesson of that or the turning point of that was
0:33:16 When you have that gut feeling
0:33:17 Go in
0:33:22 And I haven’t always done that by the way actually not long after so after I did Sunseh Boulevard
0:33:26 I doubled down on my commitment to not doing musicals, right?
0:33:30 Or after I go home. I’ve now done three musicals and I still couldn’t get an audition for a film
0:33:33 and I
0:33:39 Got an offer to do The Boy from Oz which I went on to do here and on Broadway about 15 years ago
0:33:44 And when I heard the pitch for that show, I had that same feeling in my gut. Oh my god
0:33:46 This is gonna be amazing. You got to do it
0:33:51 But my head was saying you’ve done three musicals stop when are you gonna stop you got to stop you made a commitment
0:33:53 So I turned it down
0:33:58 And when I went to see that show two years later, by the way, I still hadn’t got a film audition pretty much
0:34:01 When I went to go and see that show
0:34:04 I was actually
0:34:06 sick to my stomach because
0:34:09 It was everything I knew it was gonna be when they pitched it to me
0:34:12 And there I was making some
0:34:15 strategic clan in my head
0:34:17 and it was wrong
0:34:23 And from that moment on I’ve always followed my gut on stuff even if it doesn’t make sense
0:34:25 How do you relate to?
0:34:28 Intuition or that gut feeling now
0:34:34 Is there a certain way you think about it or have become more tuned to feeling it?
0:34:39 And I’m asking in part because I’ve spent a lot of my life trapped in my
0:34:41 The front of my brain and hyper
0:34:46 Analyzing things and it has often been a disservice because it’s
0:34:48 overpowered
0:34:49 feelings
0:34:51 Intuition on deals partnerships
0:34:54 Friends or foes that I should have listened to right?
0:35:00 So I’d just be curious to know how you have developed a relationship with listening to that
0:35:03 I’ve never been asked this question. I think this is probably
0:35:06 the most vexing
0:35:10 Most important vital thing to work out in your life. Certainly in my life
0:35:15 And I think about it a lot to answer the question what I do now. I think I need to take you back
0:35:19 I’ve never really said this before publicly this particular thing
0:35:23 I’m gonna say but as I told you I was brought up in a very religious household
0:35:32 So a lot of the messages I was getting and instructions for life came through the examples of Jesus and through all these characters and the parables
0:35:38 In the bible and I carry them very close to my heart. I can remember
0:35:41 praying
0:35:46 Nightly for I don’t know how long to god. I used to I remember it’s just saying I don’t care god
0:35:50 What it is you want me to do if you want me to click
0:35:54 Trash, I’ll click trash if you want me to I do not care
0:35:59 But please make it clear to me what you want me to do. Please make that clear
0:36:02 I had much more fear of being on the wrong path
0:36:04 than I had fear of
0:36:12 Failing at a path if that makes sense that whatever that decision was whatever that moment of clarity becomes whatever
0:36:18 Gets you to that feeling of Eric Liddell and chariots if I I feel his pleasure when I run for me
0:36:24 That was always and I carry it today even though my feelings about religion are different than what they were when I was younger
0:36:26 The essence is the same that there is some
0:36:28 calling
0:36:31 That Joseph Campbell would talk about follow your bliss. There is some calling
0:36:34 that is beyond
0:36:35 the
0:36:37 conscious brains
0:36:44 Strategizing of how to be happy and successful and or meaningful in life. There’s something elemental and instinctual and
0:36:48 learning that the people I admire the most
0:36:51 Really hone that ability and in
0:36:56 big decisions in their life too small day-to-day decisions
0:36:58 so now
0:36:59 I still
0:37:02 Like you battle with that because I can be dominated by my mind
0:37:05 my brain pros and cons
0:37:10 Think this through and I should have mentioned this up front in terms of that first question
0:37:14 You asked me in terms of performing and the things you do or you know daily
0:37:17 I do a daily design every day. I
0:37:19 create
0:37:21 as if in the past tense of what the day
0:37:23 had been
0:37:27 Dreams can be crazy can be wild and then at the end of the day I
0:37:31 Score it out of 10. I keep myself accountable to what I was trying to manifest or
0:37:35 Make happen and one thing I a consistent theme and that
0:37:41 Is that I listen to the messages that they come in crazy ways they come in
0:37:45 strange but
0:37:50 Clear concise ways. Okay, so I’ve just come full circle
0:37:56 Let me give you an example. I’m going to go back again in terms of knowing to get into acting right following those examples
0:38:02 I went and studied auditioned for an acting school and I got in I got in on the reserve list
0:38:05 So I didn’t get on the first time round. This was a one-year course. I did before my three-year one
0:38:10 I just snuck in and I was so excited after graduating as a journalist
0:38:16 I came to get an acting school for one year and then I got a letter in the mail
0:38:19 A week later saying congratulations. You’re in
0:38:24 Please make sure you come with the three and a half thousand dollars tuition fee
0:38:29 And it had never dawned on me. There was going to cost anything because when I was young in Australia
0:38:32 Secondary education was free like all university was free
0:38:35 So I was like, uh-oh
0:38:39 And I thought I’ve got to go and ask my dad and I’ve just graduated from college and I thought I can’t do that
0:38:41 I literally ripped up
0:38:47 The letter screwed it up put it in the bin and I’m not joking. This is to me one of those signs crazy signs that are just like a
0:38:49 wallop in the face
0:38:51 I got a
0:38:58 Check the next day from my grandmother’s will she died three months before for three and a half thousand dollars the exact dollar amount
0:39:05 And yeah, I mean that’s an obvious example. That’s when the universe is going. All right. You’re an idiot
0:39:08 I’ve given you a lot of signs
0:39:11 You went off and did the play you walked into that house
0:39:16 You got that sign. You knew this is where you’re meant to be. This is it and maybe so it’s time to move on
0:39:18 and
0:39:20 you’re about to throw it up because
0:39:23 The three and a half thousand dollars and that parts of me to go down
0:39:26 You’re going to kind of falter the first hurdle
0:39:28 and then the wallop comes in my face and so
0:39:33 I’ve had really clear moments of that but I ask every single day tim
0:39:37 Not ask I manifest every single day that I will hear those messages
0:39:42 You’ve transformed yourself multiple times certainly and
0:39:47 I’ve seen you work out. It’s enough to make me want to retire my sneakers
0:39:52 Uh, it’s just outrageous the intensity involved and I’d be curious to know
0:39:54 if there are any particular
0:39:59 exercises or types of exercise that you have found to be
0:40:03 Particularly good bang for the buck. So if you had to just
0:40:10 Take the desert island test and you could only take a handful of exercises or x y and z with you
0:40:12 Yeah, does anything come to mind?
0:40:15 Rolling machine
0:40:16 definitely
0:40:21 A rower. There’s a reason the row is usually empty at the gym because it’s difficult
0:40:24 and
0:40:26 A lot of people want to say and feel they’ve worked out
0:40:32 And they want to get a sweat, but they don’t necessarily and I learned a lot of this from your book
0:40:36 And I worked at a gym by the way before our body. I worked at a gym for three years
0:40:42 So I saw a lot of people coming in five days a week and not really changing anything about them and
0:40:44 The rolling machine
0:40:47 I think if you add in some chest works and
0:40:53 Push-ups that’s in everything you need to keep fit healthy strong
0:40:56 I’ve learned a lot of that I work with Beth Lewis the trainer
0:40:58 who
0:41:02 You can look her up. She does a lot of free classes right now. I think during covered
0:41:08 I found her through peter. Do you know beth? Have you met beth? I know of beth. Well, she was a powerlifter and a dancer
0:41:10 it really is great for me because
0:41:15 I mean in the past even with someone like wolverine, I have to prepare
0:41:21 To look physically away, but I can’t get injured. So I can’t prepare as a bodybuilder. I have to be able to prepare
0:41:28 There’s a really jacked ripped athlete slash dancer because fighting is dance
0:41:31 It is more relaxation in a fight scene
0:41:32 Then there is strength
0:41:37 Which is probably the case for if you think about all the great athletes you see
0:41:42 There’s relaxation and that movement has moved in sports. That’s why you see every sprinter
0:41:47 poking their tongue out now and dancing around with joy before they run the hundred meters, you know
0:41:50 That sense of having the right level of relaxation
0:41:55 I think if they call it the 85% rule if you tell most sort of a type athletes
0:42:01 To run at their 85% capacity they will run faster than if you tell them to run 100
0:42:04 because it’s more about relaxation and form and
0:42:10 Optimizing the muscles in the right way. So Beth has really taught me that for the rowing machine man. You can’t go wrong
0:42:16 And to get time just do the seven minute thing and I had to do this for a film a movie Australia
0:42:22 Beth wanted me to be big and so I was big and then about a month before he said, ah
0:42:26 Doing a lot of research about these jacarous or cowboys. He goes
0:42:32 They’re lean. They’re all lean lean lean and I’m like, dude, you asked me to get big up and getting big
0:42:38 And he goes, I need you lean. So I went to my trainer and he goes, who was a rower and he said, you want to get lean?
0:42:40 wrote
0:42:46 So as well as the ice baths that I learned from your book, which I used all through the wolverines particularly
0:42:50 The later wolverines when you see me a better shape. That’s a great way to lose fat
0:42:53 but seven minute row
0:42:56 four times a week and the goal is 2000 meters and
0:43:02 When you try it at some point you’re going to hate me for it, but still that’s the quickest best way
0:43:09 Just a quick thanks to one of our sponsors and we’ll be right back to the show
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0:44:19 And now ester parel
0:44:27 psychotherapist new york times best-selling author of mating in captivity and the state of affairs
0:44:32 Thinking infidelity and host of her top rated podcast. Where should we begin?
0:44:40 You can find ester on twitter at ester parel and instagram at ester parel official
0:44:48 Esther welcome to the show. Thank you. Hello. I am thrilled to finally have connected with you
0:44:52 And you have one of the hottest possible areas of expertise
0:44:59 Unimaginable and there’s so many questions that I would like to ask and so many questions that my fans would like to ask
0:45:05 But I thought we could start with a bit of background and if you could tell us just a bit about where you grew up
0:45:11 And what your childhood was like. I think that’d be good as context to get us started
0:45:15 So I grew up in antwerp in belgium mostly
0:45:22 Antwerp is the Flemish part of belgium and I was there till I finished high school. I grew up
0:45:27 With I have a big brother who is 12 years older than me. So I was the
0:45:34 the young girl and my parents who were actually polish refugees who came to belgium after the war
0:45:42 From belgium, I moved to jerusalem and I studied at the hebra university in jerusalem
0:45:45 And I lived there for almost six years
0:45:53 And then I came to came rich massachusetts to finish my master’s degree and I really thought I was coming for one year
0:45:54 To america
0:45:59 But that one year became two years in came rich and then after that I came to new york
0:46:03 And I thought I would do that for one year because I wanted to have the new york experience
0:46:06 And I never used my return tickets and here I am
0:46:11 You’re still having the new york experience. I’m still having the new york experience. Exactly
0:46:19 So you as I understand it grew up among holocaust survivors and I would love to
0:46:26 Hear you elaborate on that experience and what it was like what you learned from it
0:46:29 And then we can talk about I’d like to talk about Jerusalem
0:46:36 I am very interested as many people are in the history of the holocaust, but even more than that the
0:46:38 personal
0:46:44 The lived experience the lived experience and there’s a book called if this is a man and there’s another book called the truce
0:46:47 Both are written by primo levy, which was recommended to me by
0:46:54 The illusionist david blaine who actually has primo levy’s inmate number or prisoner number tattooed on his forearm
0:46:58 And it was one of the most impactful books. I would say I’ve read in the last 10 years
0:47:04 But I have no direct experience with holocaust survivors. What was that like and what did you learn?
0:47:10 So interesting that we’re starting from there. So I think that if this was a man by primo levy is one of the most
0:47:16 Powerful books one ought to read. I think it’s a unique a unique
0:47:18 Testament
0:47:23 So it’s very simple. There were 60 000 jews in belgium before the war
0:47:32 The vast majority of them were decimated throughout the war and in camps and so after the war in group of
0:47:39 Eastern european jews basically came to belgium through all kinds of means that’s kind of where they arrived
0:47:41 and
0:47:45 My parents who were both the sole survivors of their entire family
0:47:50 Which means 200 people lost I guess on every side. They were both the youngest in their families
0:47:54 My mother was in the camps from 18 to 22
0:47:57 And my father from 25 to 31
0:48:03 Actually, because the war started very early for them. So they came, you know with nothing
0:48:08 They were legal refugees for three months who were meant to continue from there to other countries
0:48:12 Where they had been given refugee status, but they chose not to leave
0:48:17 And so they stayed for another five years as illegal refugees in belgium, which is very
0:48:25 Telling for me right now with what’s going on in our country here and I am born later. So when I am born in 58 they already
0:48:30 found a way to legalize themselves to become a belgian citizens and
0:48:33 And I grew up in a different environment
0:48:38 But I am growing up in a community of 20 000 jews that are all holocaust survivors
0:48:44 That’s basically all we knew in the jewish community. Of course, there was the larger belgian community around
0:48:51 And you know, you saw numbers you asked why don’t we have grandparents? You asked what are these numbers you
0:48:57 It came with mothers milk is the best way I could say it. It was so ever present. We spoke yiddish
0:49:01 German polish french and flemish in my home
0:49:07 Depending on the subject matter we changed and depending on who was speaking to home the language changed
0:49:12 But there were five vibrant interchangeable languages going on the whole time
0:49:16 And if you can imagine that the language is a door to a world
0:49:23 Then you can imagine how many worlds were coexisting at the same time that had nothing to do with each other
0:49:29 Actually, I grew up above the store because most of the jews of antwerp were actually are in the diamond business
0:49:32 My family was among the two percent that were not
0:49:37 And so they had clothing stores and I grew up in the neighborhood where they were two jewish families
0:49:42 So it’s like the daily store with the foreigner in the neighborhood, you know
0:49:47 And you know who they are the two foreigners and they have an accent and they look different and the whole thing
0:49:51 And I lived above the store and in this very popular
0:49:54 neighborhood lower middle class neighborhood and
0:50:00 Where we spoke actually not even just flemish, but we spoke dialect flemish from the street like from the hood
0:50:06 The equivalent of the hood basically and I would straddle back and forth
0:50:11 One of the ways I can describe it is my father when he turned 50 had two birthday parties
0:50:19 One birthday party was for his jewish survivor friends that took place in yiddish and in polish and with a lot of vodka
0:50:25 And one birthday party was with his flemish friends and that was in dialect and with a lot of beer
0:50:33 And by the code by the drinks you knew exactly which world you were traveling in and
0:50:39 How you had to behave and how much you could show that side of you versus the other side of you
0:50:42 You know, and there was a sense I think
0:50:48 Maybe more than anything when you grew up in that kind of a community you you grew up with the notion of impermanence
0:50:56 That what is today could disappear any moment? I think that’s probably one of the strongest experiences
0:51:01 You don’t ever think that there is a notion of you know, what is now will be there tomorrow
0:51:06 You’d never know and so you learn to adapt to that notion of impermanence
0:51:12 Of insecurity if you want and my parents were bourgeois, you know, they loved life
0:51:20 They didn’t survive for nothing. They were going to enjoy at best and as I have often said they understood the erotic as an antidote to death
0:51:24 As in they knew how to keep themselves alive and
0:51:29 And and enjoy not everybody was like that. You had very different kind of moods
0:51:31 They were storytellers
0:51:37 So people would come from everywhere and they would tell about their life and their experiences and they were good storytellers
0:51:41 Which means that they knew how to screen out and to could make you laugh and they didn’t make you
0:51:47 Completely tense when you would listen and everybody wanted to know their stories. They were
0:51:54 Amazing amazing amazing stories of survival of subversion of you know, my dad was illiterate
0:51:57 He spoke five languages, but he was basically illiterate
0:52:04 And he was a grand grand human being, you know, who had done a lot and had saved quantities of people
0:52:06 because
0:52:11 Yeah, I would say maybe the strongest value in that community or not the strongest
0:52:14 But one of the very strong values one was definitely decency
0:52:18 You know how you behave towards your fellow other people
0:52:24 And the other one was to manage street smart to be street smart
0:52:30 You know to know to survive basically to find your way out of situations and to be able to
0:52:33 to survive survival was
0:52:39 The central organizing experience of all these people and then the second experience was revival
0:52:45 And I have so many different directions that I would love to take this. So I’ll try to do it one at a time
0:52:50 Dialect Flemish from the hood. Could you give us any example?
0:52:53 Of what street Flemish
0:52:58 Sounds like or there are no mannequins. What do you think that is if cousin and warps for teller?
0:53:03 So what did you just say? Yes, dude. Do you want me to say this in antrop dialect?
0:53:07 How would you say? How are you in like what’s up in?
0:53:16 Say that one more time. Oh boy. Yes. I’ll save my embarrassing rehearsal for when we meet in person
0:53:30 I think you might have just insulted my ancestors, but I’m not sure what just happened
0:53:36 I said I could say all of this in antrop dialect, but in order to be sure we all understand it
0:53:41 I’m gonna tell my stories in English. That is a fantastic idea. So thank you for that. I love languages
0:53:44 So I just wanted to hear something that I’d never heard before
0:53:50 You mentioned that your parents were soul survivors in their families if I heard you correctly
0:53:52 when you
0:53:54 Look at your parents
0:53:58 I don’t know if it was simply because of their age or other factors
0:54:03 But when you look at your parents, so that would be the primary focus, but and that other soul survivors
0:54:10 What did they credit the survival to? Oh, that is a great question. I did get to ask them these questions. So
0:54:15 My mother she first spent one year in the woods at 18
0:54:19 Running from farm to farm hiding in the woods of poland
0:54:26 And then she was so terrified that she actually surrendered by herself to a camp to a labor camp
0:54:28 To a man’s camp
0:54:34 Because she thought if I am in a camp at least then probably will put me in the kitchens or in the laundry
0:54:37 And I could at least wake up every morning in the same place
0:54:44 My mother ended up going to nine different labor camps now labor camps were generally next door to the concentration camps
0:54:46 And as long as you could work you were in a labor camp
0:54:51 And if you were not selected that morning for transport then you could continue work
0:54:54 But the distinction is often a very narrow distinction
0:54:57 And my father was in 14 camps
0:55:00 And my mother definitely
0:55:04 So the rest of their families was either gas in treblinka or in
0:55:08 Auschwitz basically his family in Auschwitz her family in treblinka
0:55:13 My mother would say it was a combination of premonitious dreams
0:55:18 She was very very superstitious and she really believed her dreams
0:55:23 That would tell her tomorrow don’t go there tomorrow be a little bit late there tomorrow
0:55:28 Make sure to have an extra layer of newspaper on your feet because it’s going to be really really cold
0:55:33 She had all these premonitious dreams of her father talking to her and things like that
0:55:38 And she will always say chance came first my father too
0:55:41 I think ultimately both of them said chance came first
0:55:45 And then there was what you did with the chance that was given to you
0:55:50 So there is always a mixture between choice and coincidence choice and chance
0:55:52 and my mother said
0:55:58 She always made sure that she was clean, that she was groomed, that she was mending her socks
0:56:01 That she maintained her humanity
0:56:08 That she didn’t allow herself to become dehumanized and degraded the way that she was being treated by the nazis
0:56:11 and my father
0:56:16 My father when we went to visit Auschwitz actually ended up telling me a story of
0:56:25 a dutch convoy that arrived of women and he somehow picked a woman out of the crowd and he decided that he would help this woman
0:56:32 And basically the next day they were shaven and so he couldn’t even recognize her so he asked the capo
0:56:38 Who is the other woman that he had mentioned noticed the day before and they began some correspondence
0:56:43 Which I have no idea how he wrote because he couldn’t write and I never bothered asking him who wrote for you
0:56:49 But he fell in love with this woman and he just decided that there were certain things that
0:56:52 the Germans couldn’t take away from him
0:56:58 and that had to do with feelings and with love in the most dire of circumstances and then
0:57:05 He basically developed this black market in one of the camps where he was with his best friend where they were for almost a year and a half
0:57:13 Where he ended up feeding 60 young men who would otherwise not have had enough to eat and therefore to work and therefore to survive
0:57:19 And he ended up feeding the Nazis too. So when he got caught with those letters
0:57:25 One of the Germans basically sent him back to the factories and said you’re not staying in here
0:57:28 And factories meant you have one week to live basically
0:57:36 But he had been feeding the german guy so well that the guy said I eat better when you work in the kitchens and he put him back in the kitchen
0:57:42 And so he always said it was a combination of chance and ingenuity
0:57:46 Street smart what he would call and doing for others
0:57:52 Doing for others gave you a purpose to stay alive and to wake up in the morning
0:57:54 if you
0:57:57 look at then the survivors whether by
0:58:00 Chance first like you mentioned
0:58:04 choice some combination of those factors and others
0:58:08 You mentioned survival and revival when you look at the
0:58:12 survivors who ended up
0:58:14 Being able to revive themselves
0:58:20 And who did not so the third reason my mother always said is that she always thought
0:58:24 That they wanted her to stay alive because if the others were not going to make it
0:58:31 They needed to be at least someone from the family and she always thought that she would somehow be reunited with somebody
0:58:37 So she maintained this very deep connection inside of her that they were waiting for her somewhere
0:58:44 Then they realized that there was nobody. So, you know, it’s an interesting question that I organized in my mind like this
0:58:47 And I organized it when I was actually
0:58:51 Writing mating my first book mating in captivity at the time
0:58:57 I had a conversation with my husband who was working with survivors of torture and political violence
0:59:00 And I would ask him when do you know?
0:59:03 That people come back and what does it mean to come back?
0:59:09 Right come back from different war zones to come back from having been kidnapped to come back from solitary confinement
0:59:12 And what does it mean to come back to life?
0:59:15 And then as we were talking it became very clear that
0:59:21 When you reconnect with life not just when you are surviving but when you are living
0:59:24 It means that you’re once again able to take risks
0:59:26 able to
0:59:28 Broach out to go into the world
0:59:34 Able to play because you cannot play if you are in a constant state of vigilance and guardedness
0:59:37 and able to trust
0:59:42 And then I talked to myself. Oh my god. This is so much what I saw in Antwerp
0:59:47 You know, I remember since my entire classroom where children of similar families
0:59:53 That there were always two groups of families in my community and then I decided that I would call this
0:59:55 There was one group that did not die
0:59:58 And one group that came back to life
0:59:59 And
1:00:03 The did not die you could feel it when you went to their houses
1:00:09 You know, they often had plastics over the couches and the the curtains were pulled down. It was morbid
1:00:14 It was just, you know, you you’re not dead, but you’re not celebrating your life
1:00:19 You certainly are not enjoying because if you enjoy then you are not being careful
1:00:24 And you have guilt you often have survival guilt. Why am I here and none of the others made it?
1:00:32 And you are weighted down and the world is a dangerous place and you are not to trust anyone outside the family and all of that
1:00:35 And then I thought there is those who came back to life
1:00:39 And that’s what led me actually to really want to explore. What is eroticism?
1:00:46 What is this antidote to death? How in the face of adversity do you continue to imagine yourself?
1:00:53 Rising above it connected to joy to love to pleasure to beauty to adventure to mystery to all of that
1:00:55 And those people
1:00:56 You know, it was very interesting
1:01:03 You had people who came together because they were the survivors of this camp and the survivors of that camp and then you had people who came together
1:01:10 For this kind of holiday or that kind of celebration and they never discussed their experiences. It was all implicit
1:01:13 But they were together and they
1:01:20 They were charging ahead at life, you know, the first thing they did when they would come out of the camps, by the way, is have a child
1:01:24 Because i’m alone you’re alone. I have nothing you have nothing
1:01:29 Let’s get married and let’s have children because if we have a child and we know that we are still human
1:01:34 We are able to procreate and we create legacy and they didn’t kill everything off
1:01:40 And so my parents, you know, they planted trees in all kinds of places in the world
1:01:46 They put plaques on in the memory of all the other people of their families. My mother at one point received ten thousand dollars
1:01:50 In 99 she received ten thousand dollars from one of the factories
1:01:54 Of slave labor and then like decades later
1:02:01 She took the ten thousand dollars and she went and planted an entire forest that had just burned and she replanted the forest because
1:02:03 It was like affirming life
1:02:07 With a sense of defiance. You didn’t all die inside
1:02:11 Um, and I think it’s that energy that life force that really
1:02:15 I think defines and this is true for my community
1:02:22 But I would apply this to any large scale trauma that community is experienced. I don’t think it’s unique
1:02:25 I agree and
1:02:27 I don’t know why I want to ask you this question right now, but you mentioned
1:02:30 trust as
1:02:32 One of the elements one of the ingredients in
1:02:36 The group that was revived that was living and not just
1:02:39 having avoided death
1:02:42 Do you think that and these are not mutually exclusive but
1:02:48 Does trust come first and then vulnerability or does vulnerability come first and that’s how you develop trust?
1:02:54 That depends on your theory of trust. This is the big debate on trust theorists
1:03:00 Rachel botsman will tell you that trust is an active engagement with the unknown
1:03:06 You know, so that’s one direction and the other direction is that it is the actual experience of
1:03:12 Unity that allows you to then trust and it goes in both directions
1:03:15 It really I don’t think there is a definitive answer for that
1:03:19 And maybe it’s not an either or but it’s a both ends both end right
1:03:24 You know for some people it’s like do you need to know in order to taste?
1:03:28 Or do you want to taste first and then be told what it was?
1:03:34 Definitely depends on what type of cuisine and what type of chef
1:03:38 But I understand needs to be able to trust
1:03:43 In order to get off from your lap and to run into the world and to
1:03:47 Become and to explore and discover and play and be gone in their own space
1:03:49 And at the same time
1:03:56 It is the act of doing all of that and coming back to base and sitting themselves popping themselves back on your lap
1:04:03 That reinforces the trust. I actually tend to think more in dialectic terms at both ends rather than either or but I think
1:04:07 It’s a fantastic question the question of trust, you know
1:04:09 Does the act of trusting
1:04:16 Release the option the possibilities to experience the vulnerability or is the vulnerability of the unknown
1:04:21 That you actually engage with ultimately what builds the trust, right?
1:04:24 This is something I’ve been thinking quite a lot about but I want to
1:04:26 also ask you about
1:04:28 impermanence and
1:04:29 I’ve tried to
1:04:32 focus much more in a sense on
1:04:34 things that
1:04:40 Are impermanent in my life in the last year year and a half and in part that was a result of a conversation
1:04:42 I had on this podcast with
1:04:47 BJ Miller who is a hospice care physician. So he’s helped more than a thousand people to die
1:04:52 Great guy. He lives here. We were at Ted together. So yes. So fantastic guy
1:04:57 I was actually so I went to Princeton undergraduate and he was one of the warning stories because
1:05:03 He lost three of his limbs in an electrocution accident a few years before I went to school there
1:05:08 I asked him what purchase of less than a hundred dollars had most positively impacted his life in the last
1:05:11 You know six months a year or whatever
1:05:15 He could pull from memory and he mentioned a bottle of wine and it wasn’t an expensive bottle of wine
1:05:20 And the reason he mentioned it was and I’m gonna paraphrase here, but he said it was the fact that it went away
1:05:22 and
1:05:24 How that
1:05:27 Encouraged you to enjoy something that you knew wasn’t permanent
1:05:34 And so I’ve thought about that a lot since and how to not fear things being impermanent, but really use it as
1:05:37 a source of leverage to
1:05:39 maximally enjoy those things while you can
1:05:41 and
1:05:44 I’m curious how your parents ability
1:05:46 to
1:05:53 Savor impermanence impacted you or your behaviors or your routines or anything if it did I don’t know
1:05:56 Oh, I would say in two ways
1:06:00 First of all, I’m rather voracious in living
1:06:06 If there’s one more experience I can have one more thing I can discover one more place I can travel to
1:06:09 One more conversation that could be interesting
1:06:15 I am quite voracious not because I’m insatiable, but because a part of me always says who knows what will be tomorrow
1:06:19 Right, you know, I don’t live with that. There is always a tomorrow
1:06:24 I live with who knows if there will be a tomorrow and that’s very simple
1:06:29 And then the other thing I would say that’s that may be something that’s not always so known about me
1:06:35 But I also live in a bit of a what we call in my jargon a counter phobic
1:06:39 Way, which means I act as if I’m fearless
1:06:41 But I’m actually
1:06:43 petrified with dread
1:06:48 Please elaborate counter phobic act as if I’m fearless counter phobic means like I
1:06:52 I act like it doesn’t not nothing but like there’s a lot of things I do that
1:06:58 Could be very scary sometimes to other people anyway and and I live it as if I have no fear
1:07:04 You know, even today I was driving down on on on my bike and and I was thinking like last week
1:07:10 It was filled with snow here. Why am I always just pushing the edge and seeing if I can get away with it?
1:07:15 And you know the truth is I got on my bike in the snow and and I realized there was no way
1:07:21 I was gonna be able to do this and I put the bike back, but I was thinking how many times I do things
1:07:26 Thinking nothing’s gonna happen. And at the same time as I do it. I think
1:07:31 At some points something bad is gonna happen. It’s that what I mean
1:07:36 It’s like I live I you would think that and I wouldn’t do it if I think something bad can happen
1:07:37 It would stop me
1:07:41 But no I do it and at the same time I think something bad is gonna happen every day
1:07:46 I think something bad’s gonna happen. Do you wish that were different or do you think that helps you?
1:07:49 In some way, oh god
1:07:54 I wish it was different. I mean, yes, I’m sure it pushes me and stuff
1:07:58 But there must be a way to live without that constant fear like that
1:08:03 It prepares me very well for the modern times we live in I can tolerate a lot of uncertainty
1:08:06 And the the political climate we’re in all of that
1:08:10 But today in Antwerp, there was another car that drove on the main drag
1:08:15 Driving into people, you know, it’s like that’s not a surprise to me. I expect it
1:08:19 That’s what I mean. It’s like I live with that expectation
1:08:24 It’s just a matter of when not a matter of if but I think it creates a level of anxiety
1:08:31 That I don’t wish on anybody. No, I don’t think it’s it’s normal. I think it’s normal given the history I come from
1:08:34 I don’t think it’s a good way to live
1:08:38 Well, let’s talk about this antidote that you mentioned
1:08:42 Earlier, so the the erotic as an antidote to death, but actually
1:08:45 I’m going to interrupt myself and before we get there
1:08:48 How old were you when you went to Jerusalem?
1:08:50 18 18
1:08:55 And why did you go to Jerusalem? Was that your choice? Someone else’s suggestion? Why did that happen?
1:09:00 So before I went to Jerusalem, I actually came to the states and I hitchhiked across the country
1:09:04 for seven weeks in 1976
1:09:06 calculate
1:09:08 you know in the bicentennial and
1:09:15 At the time you could still hitchhike very freely and I had one of the most formative experiences of my life
1:09:20 Because I saw America like I don’t think I will ever see it again since I had zero reference
1:09:27 I had no judgment and I just was welcoming of anybody who was willing to pick me up and take me in
1:09:32 I really saw the country in and out in ways and I wish my kids could have an experience like this
1:09:39 But I don’t know that this is happening these days and then I went to Jerusalem because I didn’t want to study in Belgium
1:09:42 I didn’t like the university system in Belgium. Why not?
1:09:48 Why not because we have a system where you have to study a curriculum that is prepared by the teacher
1:09:54 And you have to regurgitate it and study it rather by heart and I thought it was a 19th century system
1:09:57 It really was not at all
1:10:02 A useful way of learning and I had done that already for 12 years before, you know, I studied Latin
1:10:07 I studied Greek five six hours a week. I mean, I have the whole classic education humanistic education
1:10:11 And I thought Jerusalem was mysterious mystical beautiful
1:10:13 complex
1:10:20 You know in in the middle of these hotbeds of all religions and we were going to Israel a lot with my family so that
1:10:24 It’s not like it was a place I didn’t know and I thought
1:10:28 It was the one place that I could leave to study abroad with my parents blessing
1:10:36 So it was very very easy. It’s like for them, you know, you didn’t come to study in America at that time or
1:10:41 And I had a choice between I was very passionate about theater and
1:10:45 My mother said if you want to do theater, you stay in Belgium
1:10:49 And if you want to travel then you have to go to university. I want you to have a structure
1:10:55 And I thought if it’s university, the Hebrew University is a great university
1:10:58 The city is magnificent and at the time it was
1:11:04 Really a spectacular place and it was much more open than it is now and I thought what an adventure
1:11:09 I mean, I didn’t need much explanation at that time. It didn’t make sense and it made perfect sense
1:11:14 If you look back at your time in Belgium and Jerusalem, were there any
1:11:16 particular mentors
1:11:23 Who leap out at you if you had to give them credit for helping steer your life in the direction that it’s gone or
1:11:30 Help you to make any very important decisions. Is there anyone who really jumps out at you besides your parents?
1:11:33 It’s interesting. You’re asking me today because I am
1:11:35 Going to
1:11:39 Washington tomorrow to a big psychotherapy conference called the
1:11:44 The psychotherapy symposium and I am doing an homage to my mentor
1:11:47 But the mentor from America who is 95
1:11:53 And I have been asked to be one of three people to be the the person to thank him
1:11:56 So I’m in the midst of this experience right now
1:12:00 I’m going to say to one of the most influential teachers of my life
1:12:04 We could also talk about that 95 year old mentor. That’s totally fine as well or both
1:12:10 Both that I mean, it’s an interesting question. I am the product of mentorship
1:12:14 This is true throughout from the Hebrew University to
1:12:19 Cambridge, Massachusetts to studying with Salvador Mnuchin. That’s the name of this mentor
1:12:22 I have been mentored
1:12:27 Pretty much throughout but even in my adolescence through my theater teacher and dance teacher
1:12:33 Mainly because my parents could always help me with any of these things. They had zero reference to the world. I lived in
1:12:38 I sought teachers. I sought mentors. I sought
1:12:42 People who could help me integrate in belgium life who could help me
1:12:48 Believe in myself as well, you know guide me my brother. That’s definitely one of them
1:12:50 Every book I read was recommended by him
1:12:57 But I am totally the product of mentorship. It’s like I sought them out one after the other
1:13:01 I this man that I’m going to be commemorating tomorrow is alive
1:13:06 But Salvador Mnuchin who is one of the fathers of the field of systemic family therapy
1:13:08 How do you spell Salvador’s last name?
1:13:12 Mnuchin M-I-N-U-C-H-I-N
1:13:13 Got it. Mnuchin. Thank you.
1:13:15 Argentinian. I mean
1:13:21 You know, you’re anointed when you have studied with him. It’s like studying with Freud but a century later
1:13:26 I knocked at his door. I arrived to New York. I was here. I knew I have a year to be in New York
1:13:31 I knocked at his door and I said can I come and observe? He looked at me like who are you?
1:13:36 And that’s the story I’m going to tell tomorrow. Like at the time you could still knock at somebody’s door and say
1:13:38 I want to learn from you
1:13:42 You inspire me and then he let me stay there 10 weeks and then after 10 weeks
1:13:46 He said that’s it. That’s about as much as one can learn from from observing
1:13:51 You can go now and I said no no no no no I have to you know, please please let me stay that kind of day
1:13:54 And then he always says like I entered through the window, you know
1:14:04 So I actually want to sorry to interrupt but I want to dig a little deeper on that because I am constantly asked
1:14:06 by
1:14:10 Well, I’m asked to mentor which usually means unpaid consultant for life
1:14:12 So I don’t often say yes to that but
1:14:17 The question of how should I approach mentors or how should I
1:14:21 seek people out like Salvador and
1:14:28 Someone along the lines of your story a little bit different, but I remember professor who had a profound impact on me
1:14:30 Ed Schau who is at Princeton and
1:14:32 Was a very eclectic character
1:14:37 He was similar in his appeal to me as Richard Feynman because they were so diverse in their interest
1:14:39 So he was a competitive figure skater had taken
1:14:44 Several companies public was the first I believe the first computer science professor at
1:14:48 Stanford because the person who was supposed to teach it didn’t show up
1:14:51 And then the administration asked if anyone would volunteer and he did
1:14:55 I was a congressman for a few terms and I really wanted to be in his class
1:14:57 but I came back from overseas
1:15:03 And I was late to apply to this class which had become very very popular called high tech entrepreneurship
1:15:05 So I went to the first class
1:15:11 And I appealed to him and I said I’ll sit on the floor. I’ll clean the erasers. I’ll do whatever is necessary
1:15:13 Can I just sit in on a few classes?
1:15:16 It was a somewhat similar approach
1:15:21 But when people ask you and I’m sure they do how should I seek out mentors? How should I?
1:15:26 Approach people I want to learn from what advice would you give them and maybe
1:15:32 Any specifics from what you’ve done in the past? Did you just knock on the door of his classroom or was it his office?
1:15:38 His classroom. I mean I called I said I am in New York and so and so suggested that I commit with you
1:15:42 I would love to learn with you. I had nothing no credentials. I had no reason to be there
1:15:48 Could I please me? No, it was like get my foot in the door. I like like you. I would have done exactly what you did
1:15:52 I would have said I’ll do anything. I’ll bring you coffee every morning
1:15:57 Can I just be here because I just needed my foot in the door and then I can start thinking and now what?
1:16:01 I and I admire the people who do that with me
1:16:04 I have to say when they come and they fly and they write and they say
1:16:08 You I’ve been reading you. I’ve been, you know, and then they show me
1:16:12 Not just I’d like you or I or I admire you
1:16:17 But also they say a few things that let me know that they get what I’m talking about
1:16:25 So I also feel deeply understood and then I feel like oh man. I was there. I was that 21 year old, you know
1:16:26 and
1:16:29 I had no papers. I had no visa. I mean I was
1:16:32 I came here with love and fresh water really
1:16:36 And that’s what I mean street smart. It’s like
1:16:42 You know refugee go for it knock at the doors and if they say no come back again
1:16:47 If at the third time if you don’t act crazy, they will understand that you are deeply motivated
1:16:54 And if you do it with somebody who did it too that if you don’t that crazy is a really important bolded part of that sense
1:16:58 It’s very, you know, you have to be really, you’re not a cuckoo
1:17:02 You’re not like just some loose screw, but you really show that
1:17:07 You I see you and I want your trajectory or I want to learn from your trajectory
1:17:10 After 10 weeks when he said you’re out
1:17:14 I and I said please please he said you can be a fly on the wall
1:17:19 And I said fine. I’ll be a fly on the wall. You will I will melt in the wall
1:17:25 You know, let me be as invisible as can be and then one day
1:17:30 There was a couple that was there a family and it was actually a holocaust survivor family
1:17:34 We were working with the with the therapist behind the one-way mirror. That’s how we were learning at the time
1:17:41 And then somehow suddenly he looks at me and he says you there in the back. Don’t you know something about this?
1:17:44 He said what would you do?
1:17:50 You know, and then I like spouted something out and then he says that’s an interesting thought go tell them
1:17:53 And he literally sends me to the other side of the
1:17:56 Into the session
1:18:00 You know and I thought oh, I’m no longer invisible. I exist
1:18:02 and uh
1:18:06 And that was the beginning then I worked with him for the next four years
1:18:11 That’s amazing. So hot spa is the word in Yiddish. Oh, yes hot spa
1:18:18 Hot spa hot spa good healthy creative imaginative hot spa. Yeah, I need more hot spa
1:18:23 I’m not saying correctly and less. Yeah, he’s saying it perfectly way less less mischie gas, right?
1:18:28 Is that it’s mischie gas? Yes, yes, exactly less crazy, but you know
1:18:34 I think that mentors I agree that sometimes it’s kind of consultant for life, but sometimes
1:18:39 It’s just you must have had authors or books or musicians
1:18:45 Those that you read when you were young that kind of really shaped you and it’s a very strange thing when suddenly
1:18:48 You become a shaping force in someone else’s life
1:18:54 For some reason you speak to them and I am always curious why me like
1:18:59 What is it that I say because other people talk about some of these things that
1:19:01 touches you
1:19:05 That you would want to come here from far away countries
1:19:11 Just to meet with me and on occasion. I’ll go and have a cup of coffee with these people or you know
1:19:18 I have responded more than once just by the way they write the letter. It’s all in how they write that mail to me
1:19:21 I can’t explain, you know, it’s no logic
1:19:28 Are there any key ingredients that you can think of I’ll share from my side as well. So one of the things
1:19:29 that
1:19:36 And we both get I’m sure a lot more inbound than we could possibly ever respond to but one of the things that
1:19:40 I would say certainly there’s a can’t be 10 pages long, but that’s obvious
1:19:44 I would say that very often people think that it is a form of
1:19:51 Optimism that’ll be rewarded if they end with and I look forward to your favorable response or how about next Tuesday
1:19:55 And I’m not personally someone who generally responds to that very well
1:19:58 I’m I’m more likely to respond if they close with
1:20:05 Something like I completely understand if I never hear from you because you must have an incredible amount of
1:20:10 Inbound requests like this, but if you’ve read this far, thank you at least for reading this far
1:20:13 It lets me off the hook counter intuitively
1:20:16 maybe that makes it more likely that
1:20:19 I’ll respond because I perceive they have some
1:20:22 Empathy or ability to understand
1:20:25 The situation that I’m in so that would be one in
1:20:30 contributing ingredient for me and then the other I remember I ended up hiring
1:20:36 Someone years ago to work on help me work on the four-hour body and and some other projects
1:20:41 Because he heard me talking about things that I needed or read about
1:20:45 Certain projects I was going to be working on and he said oh, I just went ahead and did a b c d and e
1:20:48 Here’s the work. You don’t have to respond. I just thought this would be helpful
1:20:51 And I was like, well, okay, that’s very proactive
1:20:54 What about yourself?
1:21:01 Yes, it’s a combination. I mean what you just described for me. It’s a combination between boldness and humility
1:21:06 Right, you know the boldness is I’m going to do this. I’ve been reading you
1:21:11 I’ve been listening to you something in the way you say it strikes it right for me
1:21:17 But I don’t expect it. I totally know what I’m asking you and it would mean an enormous amount
1:21:21 You have no reason to do this, but if you were to do this
1:21:25 It could change my life. It would mean so much
1:21:28 It’s not so much that I can say no or yes
1:21:32 It’s that they really understand the vulnerability of the requests you feel that they
1:21:38 They are prepared for you to say no and they are so if they were to hear a yes
1:21:44 It would mean so much and I have been there. I remember, you know, I’ve been that person so
1:21:48 You can’t write to me as if you already know everything
1:21:53 But at the same time you have to be bold enough to want to say what do I have to lose
1:21:57 What do I have to lose and then they say sometimes I have never written something like this and then
1:22:03 I would probably say one thing for me that makes a difference is if they just say, you know, I’ve always wanted to be
1:22:07 a therapist who works with sexuality and couples
1:22:14 No, but if they say in the way if they reflect back something about me in which I recognize myself
1:22:17 And it’s a mirror that I like to look in at
1:22:23 Then I feel like they really get what I’m about and what I’m talking. They’re not just projecting on to me
1:22:25 You know
1:22:32 That helps that I feel also really understood. It’s a variation of what you’re describing in terms of the empathy
1:22:37 So I think it’s similar. It’s a different wording for something that’s quite similar to what you’re describing
1:22:39 Does sound similar
1:22:42 So I promise to get back to this and I know people are going to want to dig into this
1:22:48 We’ll continue to bounce all over the place. But you mentioned the the erotic as an antidote to death
1:22:55 What is eroticism and can you explain what you mean by it being an antidote to death?
1:22:58 animals have sex and we have
1:23:06 The erotic and the erotic is sexuality that is transformed by our human imagination
1:23:12 The erotic is the meaning that you attribute to sexuality. It’s the poetics of sex
1:23:15 It’s not nature
1:23:20 Instinct primary force. It’s everything that gives it a meaning and in a context
1:23:25 It’s everything that turns sex not into an act
1:23:30 But into a place you go not just something you do but a place that you go
1:23:37 And that place that you go is a place where you connect with vibrancy with aliveness with renewal
1:23:39 with life force
1:23:41 with vitality
1:23:43 with mystery
1:23:49 And that’s why it becomes an antidote to death. So that’s why people often talk about it in spiritual terms in religious terms
1:23:51 It has a transcending quality to it
1:23:57 It’s really the more mystical meaning of the word erotic eros zoar life force
1:24:05 It’s really modernity that narrowed the meaning of eroticism to something that is more blatantly sexual rather than life force
1:24:07 but that life force
1:24:11 Often expressed through the sex takes on a whole other dimension
1:24:12 so
1:24:14 for me
1:24:19 To understand that I wasn’t just working on sexuality because i’m not interested in what people do the act
1:24:25 You know, you can do sex and feel nothing women have done sex and felt dead for centuries
1:24:27 It’s really that other side of it
1:24:33 And that you don’t have to do much of anything your own imagination. You know, we are the only ones who can have
1:24:41 Sex for hours, you know blissful sex and and a wonderful connection and and orgasms and all the likes and never touch anybody
1:24:43 just because we can imagine it and that
1:24:51 Imagination is ability to transport ourselves outside of this moment that we are in into something completely different
1:24:56 That is the erotic elan and I am very interested in that because
1:25:01 Because I work with people who come and complain about the loss of desire and the loss of that energy
1:25:08 And they want to reconnect with that force and they don’t know why they lose it and they confuse it with arousal
1:25:10 and it has not much to do with that
1:25:14 And you know, when people complain about the listlessness of their sex lives
1:25:19 They sometimes may come want more sex, but they always want better and that better
1:25:26 When you analyze it with them, it’s about that life force that vitality that vibrancy that mystery that
1:25:32 imaginative play that curiosity curiosity is an essential ingredient of the erotic
1:25:38 And that’s what they want to reconnect with and so then that metaphor that I talked before about not dead
1:25:40 Versus alive
1:25:45 Survival versus revival. That’s you know, you can survive and have sex and have children
1:25:47 But you may feel dead
1:25:51 Whereas you can have an experience in which you feel utterly alive and you’re in your 80s
1:25:57 And you do whatever 80 year old people do it doesn’t really matter because the force transcends the act
1:26:03 And that’s for me the interest of working on eroticism. I work with people who want to feel alive
1:26:08 if you say look at your group of of patients and
1:26:11 You then look at a subset who are
1:26:17 What they would consider happily married in the sense or happily in a committed relationship
1:26:20 Maybe committed is too loaded a term. They’re happily in a relationship
1:26:26 And they don’t want to leave that relationship. There are many incredible elements of that
1:26:31 Yet they’ve hit that point which many people have hit certainly. I’ve hit before
1:26:36 I’m very good. Let’s make this personal. So I’m very good at monogamy. I can do it
1:26:39 I’m very very good at it. But after say a year a year and a half
1:26:43 I have to where I feel like I have to suffocate a part of myself
1:26:47 That sort of subjugates my sex drive so that I don’t
1:26:53 Wander and that ends up affecting sex with my primary partner with my partner in this case
1:27:00 So if you’re talking to these people and they hit a point where they feel sex drive decrease or listlessness
1:27:05 What do you view as the ethical options that are on the table to address that?
1:27:08 Okay, but they are
1:27:14 Like four sub topics. Yes. No, exactly. There’s there’s there’s there’s a lot a lot of that that was probably
1:27:21 Far too complex a question. But I suppose making it personal is leading me to do that. So no, no, no, it’s it’s
1:27:23 you know, so
1:27:26 mating in captivity for me was really
1:27:29 A conversation
1:27:32 On that very question that you just asked, right?
1:27:35 People would come to me and they would say we love each other very much
1:27:41 We have no sex or we love each other very much. Where is the desire?
1:27:46 Which was very different from the traditional model that you would normally learn in school
1:27:48 Which was of course if there is no sex people mustn’t love each other
1:27:56 Because when one leads automatically to the other and therefore sexual problems are always the consequence of relationship problems
1:28:01 And you should fix the relationship and the sex will automatically follow. That was the premise
1:28:06 And I decided to question that premise because it didn’t really work like that in my office
1:28:11 I saw people who got along much better and it still didn’t change anything for the desire
1:28:15 And so I began to ask what is the relationship between love and desire?
1:28:16 Yeah
1:28:21 So that’s the first one is what does that mean? This is is desire faded to degrade
1:28:25 You know, is the degradation of desire inevitable and what does it mean?
1:28:31 And how does one rekindle it and can one rekindle it and can you want what you already have?
1:28:34 Which is the fundamental question of desire?
1:28:38 And then there is the second part to what you’re asking which is the question of monogamy
1:28:42 And when you say I can do monogamy very well for a year
1:28:46 Then you are defining monogamy by one criteria only
1:28:52 At least in the way I’ve understood you where you speak is that you’re defining monogamy as a sexual exclusivity
1:28:55 Sure in this particular case. That’s what that means
1:28:59 But that’s one definition of monogamy because you know
1:29:03 Monogamy is a term that has continuously evolved in its meaning, right?
1:29:06 I mean for most of history monogamy was one person for life
1:29:09 At this point monogamy is one person at a time
1:29:11 Right, right
1:29:15 And everybody goes around saying I’m monogamous in all my relationships, you know
1:29:21 Well, that doesn’t mean I had like an orgy in it every five minutes. It was one person at a time
1:29:23 It did. No, I know I’m kidding
1:29:30 We have a model of sequential monogamy, you know, we don’t arrive monogamous to our relationships
1:29:34 We’ve had previous ones. So at this point, where does monogamy exist in reality?
1:29:37 But not in your history and not in your fantasies
1:29:45 So that’s another consideration and then there is you know, maybe if we stop just looking at monogamy
1:29:51 From the exclusivity model because the exclusivity model is an economics model monogamy
1:29:54 Generally throughout history has been an imposition on women
1:30:00 It has not necessarily been a requirement for men. In fact, men practically had a license not to be
1:30:04 And they have had all kinds of theories to justify why they shouldn’t have to be
1:30:08 Because we needed to know about paternity and about patrimony and lineage
1:30:14 So monogamy had nothing to do with love. It had everything to do with an economic system
1:30:19 That word has transformed since romanticism so much that at this point
1:30:28 I think that the conversation about monogamy should probably be less a conversation about sex and sexual boundaries and sexual exclusivity
1:30:30 and more about
1:30:33 the multiplicity of relationship configurations
1:30:36 In which monogamy may be more emotionally
1:30:41 Determined rather than just sexually determined like gay couples have done forever
1:30:46 I think we need to loosen up the term not totally trash it or not totally
1:30:52 Bind it but certainly untie it, you know loosen it up and redefine it
1:30:53 Now
1:30:55 Within that it’s a choice
1:30:58 Monogamy it’s something you choose to practice
1:31:02 When you keep it in the definition you want and then the question is
1:31:07 What do people do with their toward the desires with their other attractions?
1:31:13 Definitely, they have them they can acknowledge them. They can have a relationship in which they
1:31:16 Negotiate with each other what to do with these other desires
1:31:23 They can hopefully not always interpret them as you’re not enough, which is the most powerful
1:31:26 reaction that people have today to that term and
1:31:32 The majority of people have practiced proclaimed monogamy and clandestine adultery
1:31:35 And that’s been the dominant model. Sure, you know
1:31:40 The question is simply do people want to have a negotiation with themselves that is private and secretive?
1:31:45 Or do people want to incorporate this as part of the conversation of couple making at this point?
1:31:49 We’re not meant to have desire for one person for life
1:31:53 For 60 years that is not how we were conceived neither way
1:31:57 We have a conceived of having 60 year relationships with the same person either for that matter
1:32:00 So we are left with a host of new
1:32:07 Questions about the nature of erotic desire given first of all that for until very recently
1:32:10 We didn’t have sex in relationships just because of a desire
1:32:14 We had it for procreation and generally for women it was a marital duty
1:32:17 So sex that is rooted in free will
1:32:23 For pleasure and connection just because we want it and with you and hopefully at the same time and so forth
1:32:25 Is a very new model
1:32:28 And we are all grappling with it
1:32:34 Everybody’s wondering, you know, what do you do with the loss of desire? How important is sex anyway?
1:32:42 Can the relationship sustain without sex? Can the relationship sustain with sex with others while having a relationship?
1:32:48 What are the boundaries? I mean, this is the conversation of modern love is one of them anyway
1:32:51 There’s a few but this is one of the dominant conversation of modern love
1:32:56 So I don’t know if I’ve I’ve I’ve answered you but I hope I’ve kind of
1:33:00 Highlighted some of the the flashpoints. You have and I think we can
1:33:04 I mean, we’ve we’ve got the time so we’re going to keep going you mentioned
1:33:10 And I think this is a very important observation that you know adultery used to threaten
1:33:15 Economic stability now it threatens more so emotional stability
1:33:22 Although in some senses certainly if you’re within the legal construct of marriage there can be economic ramifications certainly
1:33:24 and
1:33:26 I’m going to bring it home to
1:33:30 San Francisco for a second. So I live in San Francisco. That’s home base
1:33:37 And I’ve tried different relationship configurations in the past. I’m not married. I don’t have kids
1:33:42 And I’ve had some wonderful relationships. I’d say for the last 10 to 15 years. I’ve I’ve done a better job of
1:33:48 Setting my own boundaries understanding other people’s boundaries making sure that all those are very explicit
1:33:50 So that whatever agreement we have
1:33:55 At the very least the agreement is clear. So I’ve had some really good relationships
1:33:57 What I’ve seen in the last say
1:34:01 Let’s call it five years. It’s certainly existed for longer than that
1:34:05 But whether it’s books like more than two or opening up or or others
1:34:09 There is a trend at least in the Bay Area for people to try what they would consider
1:34:12 monogamish or
1:34:13 polyamorous
1:34:15 relationships and
1:34:17 I have
1:34:19 Just in the cohort that I’ve
1:34:22 Observed and there are a lot in the Bay Area
1:34:27 The always honest all the time radical candor approach
1:34:30 seems to
1:34:35 implode with pretty spectacular fireworks on a regular basis. So the
1:34:40 question I want to pose is is there such a thing as too much honesty?
1:34:42 and
1:34:44 How do you think about that when you are?
1:34:47 Advising
1:34:52 How do you think about it whether yourself or in your own relationships or how do you advise your clients?
1:34:57 When they’re grappling with this, you know, should we because for instance, I’ll give you and
1:35:02 For you out there who are sensitive earmuffs cover your ears, but there are people out there who
1:35:06 Can have a high tolerance for say what they would call
1:35:09 Compersion for people who who don’t know that word that is
1:35:14 At least the way it’s been explained to me getting gratification or pleasure from someone else’s pleasure
1:35:18 So if your partner is having sex with someone else, you derive a certain amount of pleasure from that
1:35:22 I know couples who have tried this because they’ve been told it’s a more highly evolved
1:35:29 Approach and so they’ll sit down to dinner and the let’s just say in a heteronormative relationship
1:35:33 The male will say so what was it like having so and so inside you last night?
1:35:37 And they’ll try to have that conversation and everything blows apart at the axels
1:35:42 And it just doesn’t work. There’s some people for whom it works very well
1:35:45 But how much honesty is too much honesty? Is there such a thing as too much honesty?
1:35:47 Are there other parameters
1:35:49 That you’ve seen work for people? Yes
1:35:55 But you see I think that you want to there are two different cultural systems here so
1:36:00 When it comes to the polyamorous model in san francisco
1:36:06 You know, it is a bit of a growing movement in the hotbeds of startup cultures like
1:36:11 Like silicon valley because it’s people who choose a lifestyle that has to do with an
1:36:18 entrepreneurial mindset that aspires to greater freedom of choice to authenticity and flexibility
1:36:26 And so there’s a kind of a marriage between the community that lives there and the appeal of a more polyamorous life
1:36:28 but for me
1:36:36 The question of honesty is actually much broader than it extends way beyond and I think look you live in the united states and america
1:36:41 prides itself on being a pragmatic culture and as a pragmatic culture
1:36:47 it likes unvarnished directness and it has all kinds of expressions for
1:36:55 Conflating honesty with factual truth. Say it as it is. Don’t beat around the bush get to the point
1:36:59 I mean, there are so many expressions in this culture that favor
1:37:02 explicit statement
1:37:04 Versus more
1:37:07 opaque communication
1:37:13 You know that conflates the concept of the moral cure of honesty has to do with truth-telling and transparency
1:37:19 That’s the definition. There are many cultures in which honesty means something very different
1:37:26 Honesty is not about you know laying it all out there. It’s actually about thinking about what the consequences will be for the other person
1:37:31 To live with the truth. It’s not a confessional model. It’s not rooted in protestantism
1:37:37 So honesty is not about I have to tell you everything I feel or everything I’ve done
1:37:41 It’s about what will it be like for you want to live with the consequences of knowing
1:37:46 And so you don’t say certain things because you want to say face for the other person
1:37:51 Or because you you just don’t see the point of it because there’s almost something slightly
1:37:57 Almost aggressive about it a little bit, you know, it’s like what am I supposed to do with all of this now?
1:38:00 Right, you know, you feel better. You’ve unloaded. What about me kind of thing?
1:38:05 And I think it’s very cultural for me certainly coming from from europe
1:38:11 We don’t necessarily think that saying everything and putting it all out there and
1:38:14 through telling and transparency are the only
1:38:22 Markers of importance. I think we think that sometimes keeping things to yourself is just as important not everything must be said and
1:38:29 Here this notion of that connects with that is also that intimacy is about saying everything
1:38:31 It’s kind of wholesale sharing
1:38:35 Right, you know, and if you don’t say everything then you must be keeping a secret
1:38:39 Because the opposite of transparency is secrecy and there is a complete loss of privacy
1:38:44 And this is true in the intimate realm of relationships as it is true in many other sectors of our society
1:38:47 Privacy is at risk
1:38:54 And so people respond either with the other extremes. Yes, I do think that they can be too much sharing
1:39:00 It’s not too much honesty, but it is too much sharing and the sharing is problematic when you think that
1:39:04 That’s the definition of honesty. This is a really important
1:39:07 Was that clear what I just it was clear. No, it was clear and I think the
1:39:10 honesty does honesty or
1:39:14 100% sharing always equal
1:39:17 caring for the other person or
1:39:24 Fostering intimacy. I think is an interesting question and the answer is no the answer is no. Yeah, sometimes of course it is
1:39:30 But it’s not a given. It’s not a dogma. You know, I think that actually holding back
1:39:34 I think making space for the other person. I think dealing with your own feelings
1:39:38 I think this idea that because I love you I should be able to tell you everything
1:39:44 And if you don’t tell me everything, you know, then maybe you’re not close and this telling as becoming almost like a
1:39:49 A bit of a I deserve to know. What are you thinking? What are you feeling? Why don’t you want to tell me like?
1:39:52 No, those are invitations. Those are not rights
1:39:56 Right. No, I have a right to enter another person you’re invited in
1:39:58 and
1:40:02 For those people listening who want to have a very illuminating but entertaining read
1:40:09 Short read on this type of question and radical honesty. There’s a great article. I think it’s called
1:40:13 I Think You’re Fat by AJ Jacobs at Esquire who is
1:40:18 Hilarious and a good friend. So you should read that but I want to bring up an anecdote and
1:40:20 get your
1:40:27 Advice on or how you would hear how you would advise someone. So I remember having lunch with a close friend of mine
1:40:31 About two years ago, I would say and he had a friend approach him
1:40:38 Who had cheated on his wife? He had had an affair and he was grappling with whether to tell his wife or not
1:40:40 and
1:40:43 My friend’s advice was he said no
1:40:46 That is your burden to carry and you carry that with you
1:40:50 It’s not fair to inflict that on her because you want to make yourself feel better
1:40:54 After a very very long conversation that was his conclusion
1:40:58 And so I’m curious to know in a say patient setting
1:41:03 If you have someone male or female because certainly women cheat and I’ve been cheated on before I mean it happens
1:41:09 Certainly when someone is grappling with whether to tell their partner or not. How do you walk them through that decision?
1:41:12 What is it that you want to tell your partner?
1:41:18 What is it that you want to tell you want to tell that you fell in love with someone else? You want to tell that
1:41:24 You realized in having a fling with someone else how much you loved her or him
1:41:29 You realize that you have been lying to yourself all these years
1:41:36 You realize that it’s time to get back into gear because you’ve become lazy and complacent
1:41:44 You realize that you have been keeping all kinds of sexual secrets that have nothing to do with non monogamy but more with your history
1:41:48 What is it you want to tell your partner? You know, that’s the first thing
1:41:54 And do you want to tell something about what happened to you in the meeting with the other person?
1:41:59 Do you want to tell what that meeting with the other person made you think about your life?
1:42:03 You know, we’re not just talking about a series of facts
1:42:08 We’re talking about the meaning and the motives of the transgression. So that’s the first thing I ask
1:42:13 What is the meanings and the motives? Why did you do this? How did this happen to you?
1:42:18 Were you looking for it? Did you choose it? Did you just stumble into it? Did you resist it?
1:42:22 Did you not resist it? Did you hope it would not, you know, are you living with conflict?
1:42:28 What is the guilt that you’re feeling? What is the guilt? Is the guilt that you realize that you don’t have desire for your partner?
1:42:32 It’s the guilt that you realize that your partner must have been really
1:42:38 Terribly frustrated because you’ve been a terrible lover to your partner. What is it? And so the before I ever
1:42:44 Wouldn’t I don’t have to tell people do or don’t tell or don’t tell I help people
1:42:47 Figure out what it is that they would tell
1:42:53 Why would they want to tell it and what do they think will happen to the other person when they tell it to them?
1:42:57 I think the notion that sometimes not to tell is kinder
1:43:02 Than to tell the way that your friend did is also one of the many options
1:43:05 It’s not the only one but it is definitely in the repertoire
1:43:10 That sometimes you tell for your own conscience and then the other person can turn the whole night
1:43:16 So there is the positives the liabilities and the positives of telling and then there is
1:43:22 The liabilities and the positive of not telling what do you think your partner would want to know?
1:43:26 That’s the other thing and when you want to tell do you ask yourself?
1:43:28 Do you think your partner would want to know?
1:43:35 Are you speaking because of your thoughts about the other person or are you thinking of speaking because of how you feel about yourself?
1:43:41 You know, there’s a full spectrum of dishonesty, right? There’s simple omissions. There’s partial truths
1:43:46 There’s white lies. There’s blatant obfuscations and there’s mental hijacking
1:43:50 I mean secrecy can be cruel and secrecy can be benevolent
1:43:56 You know and sometimes you lie to protect yourself and sometimes you lie in order to protect your partner
1:44:01 And then there is the ironic role reversing in which sometimes you realize that you’ve been
1:44:07 Lying to yourself and it was you that you were deceiving and it’s all of that that you want to unpack
1:44:09 All those twists and tangles of lines
1:44:14 Before you’d send people out because you can never take anything back
1:44:15 Right
1:44:17 You know and the next thing that’s going to happen
1:44:22 You’re going to say I slept with someone and then they want to know how was it and then they want to know
1:44:26 Did you fall in love with that person and then they want to know maybe they don’t want to know
1:44:28 So slow down
1:44:31 Sit with this
1:44:32 ponder it
1:44:34 Figure out what this was about for you
1:44:39 If it really meant nothing, what does that mean when you say it meant nothing?
1:44:43 You mean to say it does not supposed to threaten the future of your relationship
1:44:45 This is not a person with whom you want to live
1:44:49 But even something that is meant to mean nothing has psychological valence
1:44:54 So you know people there’s a lot of effort goes into making something not mean anything
1:44:57 Paradoxically for sure. So
1:44:58 You know
1:45:04 Sit with that and I will sit with you for whatever time it takes till we figure this out
1:45:06 And then maybe we’ll write a letter
1:45:10 You’re not just going to go there and sit and we’ll write a letter
1:45:14 And you’re first going to hand write that letter and you’re going to get your first version out
1:45:17 Which you probably won’t send in which you just cleanse your soul
1:45:23 You do your own conscience cleaning and the next letter will be the one in which you’re less thinking about you
1:45:27 And more thinking about your partner and your relationship. That’s the steps
1:45:33 That’s very smart. The next question I want to ask which is actually from the audience
1:45:41 Do you think it’s possible for a partner in a non-monogamous marriage could be a relationship to get over the fear of being left by opening that door?
1:45:43 I think this is very very
1:45:49 This is a very common question because maybe one person is more enthusiastic or feels the need for
1:45:57 Some form of non-monogamy meaning sexual monogamy than the other or they’re both open to it, but they haven’t
1:46:02 Experimented or experienced this for an extended period of time or maybe they haven’t they’ve been burned
1:46:07 Do you think it’s possible for someone to get over that fear of being left by opening that door?
1:46:10 And what are some of these strategies or
1:46:13 coping mechanisms if so
1:46:22 But what if I told you that the person who experiences that fear more openly and is able to say
1:46:25 for me
1:46:28 This triggers the fear of losing you all together
1:46:35 Is actually experiencing a lesser fear than the one who is wanting to have other partners
1:46:37 Could you say that again, please? Yes
1:46:42 Couples have a setup in a setup every couple has a setup
1:46:45 It’s an organization right in every couple
1:46:51 You will often find one person who is more in touch with the fear of losing the other
1:46:55 And one person who is more in touch with the fear of losing themselves
1:47:01 One person more in touch with the fear of abandonment and one person more in touch with the fear of suffocation
1:47:08 And that tells you which is the one that is more interested sometimes in experiencing open boundaries and non-monogamy
1:47:11 Or non-exclusiveness anyway
1:47:12 but
1:47:15 The person who wants the open relationship
1:47:21 Presents as the one who doesn’t have the fear of abandonment. I see you’re saying
1:47:24 But that doesn’t mean that their
1:47:32 Strategy isn’t in fact one that is meant to address an even bigger fear of abandonment than the other
1:47:36 It’s just that in this relationship the other one is the one who gets to fill the quota
1:47:43 Okay, sure. Okay. You understand couples have complementary systems
1:47:45 So I don’t at face value
1:47:50 Would believe that the one who says i’m afraid to lose you is the only one with that fear
1:47:56 I believe we all have it, but I believe that the one who expresses it in the couple isn’t always the one for whom
1:47:58 It is actually the most intense
1:48:02 Sure, that might not agree with that. That’s the secret of a lot of relationships. No, I agree. I agree
1:48:05 You understand the person who gets to voice it
1:48:10 Is actually sometimes only voicing a fear that the other one doesn’t even voice
1:48:14 Oh, no, I agree. I agree. Okay. Well that said
1:48:18 I think it really depends. I would not have a set answer for this
1:48:22 There are plenty of people who at first felt very scared
1:48:28 And then have learned to trust differently and have learned to understand that their partner really comes back to them
1:48:32 And in fact the more they feel free the more they want to come back to them
1:48:38 And they they really have learned to trust that and then there are others for whom it’s excruciating
1:48:45 It just feels either a replay from childhood either a sense that they’re not enough because they have really
1:48:50 This notion that you would need more than me and that I can’t feel all your needs
1:48:56 It’s very very painful to them and they bought into that idea and with very powerfully
1:49:00 Sometimes there is the sense that you know, you allow yourself something that I don’t
1:49:06 Why can’t you stop yourself? There are other things that I don’t get and I don’t go and get them elsewhere
1:49:10 Compromise should be a part of what both of us do in the name of our relationship
1:49:16 I’ve seen it go both ways. I’ve seen people for whom it really became a way to live that they never knew existed
1:49:21 And I’ve seen people for whom this is just not the way they want to live
1:49:27 They don’t want that fear. They don’t want to remember every time their parents went out that they didn’t know if they were coming back
1:49:31 They don’t want that notion of what if you will fall in love somewhere else?
1:49:38 Which of course in and of itself would happen no matter what that threat is always there that reality is part of any couple
1:49:42 But somehow I don’t want to have to know it with such vividness
1:49:49 Or because I feel that there is something lacking in me or I feel my own insecurities and therefore every time you go
1:49:57 My insecurities get awakened. It’s a complex system. I would just say that it generally works better when both people are from the same tribe
1:50:01 When both people have that same curiosity
1:50:03 when both people
1:50:09 Experience the fluidity as something that is additive and not something that’s an anxiolytic
1:50:15 Then it becomes an enhancing experience rather than a dreadful experience each time
1:50:18 It’s very complicated when one person says to the other
1:50:24 I really want this and the other one says this is hell for me. I can’t live with this
1:50:33 And there’s very little flexibility sometimes in that system because both people feel it very intensely and more than one relationship has had to end
1:50:35 on that basis
1:50:37 So what I’d like to ask
1:50:40 Following up on that because I think this question is
1:50:43 And I’m going to stop hedging all my comments
1:50:48 So obviously everybody listening this there are a million different ways to organize relationship and a million different
1:50:55 Sort of combinatorial approaches to it, right? Whether it’s homosexual heterosexual unisexual
1:50:57 I have no idea. You’re right. There are a million different ways to go about it
1:51:02 So I’m just going to assume for the sake of simplicity that a lot of people are in heterosexual relationships
1:51:06 This question is very common. I think from
1:51:08 women
1:51:13 Who are you have a male in a in a relationship who wants?
1:51:16 more sexual variety and
1:51:20 the the woman in many cases not all cases is
1:51:25 At least around san francisco potentially open to that
1:51:29 But doesn’t have the same sexual drive necessarily is the male
1:51:35 So the male is going to exercise that option more than she will and that leads to or contributes to
1:51:41 Perhaps fostering some degree of insecurity if he’s going to be seeing x number of other people and I am
1:51:48 Not seeing y number equivalent of people then the likelihood of him disappearing is is higher
1:51:50 and
1:51:53 The number I was told once by someone they said well
1:51:57 No one can take the person you’re meant to be with now the way that
1:51:59 The context in which that was provided was
1:52:05 To underscore the fact that like you said whether you’re you’re married not married
1:52:12 In a relationship have an explicit agreement or not the potential and the risk for digression or meeting someone else is always there
1:52:13 but I guess the
1:52:19 Fuel on the fire here is that when you explicitly give someone the option the fear is that it’s more likely
1:52:21 to happen and
1:52:24 That’s just more of an observation. I wanted to mention two things
1:52:27 I’ve been very curious about
1:52:32 Recently that seem at least in the group that I’ve observed to work pretty well even though
1:52:34 I think they are
1:52:37 At least one of them is viewed as pretty unfashionable
1:52:39 And so I wanted to get your take on it
1:52:40 So the first one
1:52:44 Is an arrangement and this I’ve only heard once but I thought it was very clever
1:52:48 Actually, no not once twice was older gentleman
1:52:52 He’s in his 60s and married for I want to say 20 plus years has a number of kids
1:52:55 And I was asking him about his marriage and he said well, we have
1:53:00 An open relationship. Okay, and we’re having some wine tell me more
1:53:03 So we continued talking he said the way I asked him
1:53:07 How do you prevent it from causing problems and he said well every relationship has problems
1:53:12 So it’s not like one is immune and one is not but his wife gives him a
1:53:17 Report card every quarter. So every three months he gets a report card
1:53:20 I think it was one to ten scale
1:53:25 In four categories lover husband provider father
1:53:32 And he’s allowed to have a low score in any one of those as long as his average is high enough
1:53:35 So they agreed on what his average had to be so he might say
1:53:37 The overseas for a period of time
1:53:40 On business trips and he might also sleep with other women
1:53:46 So he’s going to get a low lover score a high provider score and then the other two are sort of up for debate
1:53:51 But I found that appealing maybe just because I like measuring things as a way of
1:53:54 Course correcting and and keeping things in check
1:53:58 The second which I particularly like your thoughts on although we can go anywhere with this
1:54:05 Is that looking at maybe a contrast to the tell me everything I’ll tell you everything
1:54:10 breed of polyamorous relationships where
1:54:13 Radical honesty is an underlying tenet
1:54:19 I’ve run into more than a few people who effectively have a don’t ask don’t tell policy and
1:54:24 It pains not doesn’t pain me to say it but I suspect I’ll get a decent amount of
1:54:29 Backlash from my audience. It seems to work pretty well in the sense that
1:54:34 More than a few couples have said look that whole polyamorous tell everything
1:54:37 And I know those are not mutually dependent is not for us
1:54:41 But as long as you’re safe as long as you don’t embarrass me
1:54:46 Then you can do what you want and the policies don’t ask don’t tell
1:54:51 That seems very old-fashioned. I mean, maybe the fact that it’s a two-way street makes it
1:54:57 Less old-fashioned, but what are your thoughts on that because it seems to me just intuitively
1:54:59 to be
1:55:03 And maybe it’s a highly dependent on the person but to be less prone to
1:55:06 kind of supernova
1:55:12 Destruction versus the radical honesty piece for most people. Do you have any thoughts? That’s a mouthful?
1:55:13 I know but i’m
1:55:15 I’ve been thinking about a lot of this stuff for a long time
1:55:19 So I think that I would start and I would say that trust
1:55:24 Loyalty and attachment come in many forms
1:55:30 And when you describe this example and you like it because of its measurements
1:55:32 I would say I like it because of its creativity
1:55:37 Because there’s thoughtfulness because there’s a shared complicity
1:55:39 Because it seems to have worked
1:55:46 Because there’s imaginativeness and resourcefulness in it and because I think that couples often lack a lot of that
1:55:53 Every other system gets innovators and gets new ideas and put into it all the time
1:56:00 And it is extraordinary how much relationships enter into a certain mode and then stay in it for decades, right?
1:56:09 So anything where I see couples coming up with their own imaginative solutions to various situations and then be flexible about it
1:56:11 And review it and change it
1:56:15 To me is great. That’s it. I think that unfortunately
1:56:18 Couple them does not benefit from the same
1:56:23 Innovative spirit that every other company and entrepreneurial
1:56:28 Space these days gets to benefit there isn’t one model fits all
1:56:34 And a certain couple may have lived for a while in a monogamous arrangement and exclusive arrangements
1:56:37 But then decided at some point because of all kinds of
1:56:45 Issues having to do with age with illness with success with you name it with children leaving with a new awakening with loss of weight
1:56:46 You name it you name it
1:56:51 There’s lots of triggers that make suddenly people want to change their relational arrangement
1:56:54 And I think that if people are going to stay together a long time
1:56:58 They need that ability to review their relational arrangements
1:57:03 And to negotiate it and then to try something and then to see if it works and to change
1:57:07 I mean I can’t enough emphasize my desire for flexibility
1:57:10 To become part also
1:57:13 Of couple them so that it doesn’t just be it enters a groove
1:57:17 It goes until it can’t and then it just kind of ends there
1:57:21 Needs to be something a little bit more enriching there. So
1:57:26 The first thing I think for some people don’t ask don’t tell works extremely well
1:57:29 It gives them enough
1:57:34 Privacy it makes them both know that there is still a primary loyalty and commitment
1:57:39 There is an implicit sense of knowing where one can go how far one can go
1:57:47 Etc etc and there needs to be ample continuous investment and reassurance and building into the relationship itself
1:57:49 The point is not that you should have
1:57:56 The leftovers at home and everything else that is meaningful and exciting and and interesting and engaging elsewhere
1:58:01 By definition, you still want to be able to put some logs in your own fire
1:58:03 for other people
1:58:10 Transparency and radical honesty has become an ideology. The problem is ideologies
1:58:12 Generally are rigid
1:58:17 Right, you know, they don’t lend themselves to being adaptive and fluid to what’s in front of you
1:58:22 It becomes a matter of principle rather than a matter of what makes sense. I still I may be a little bit
1:58:25 You know of the school still where does it make sense?
1:58:31 Just does it does it does it work? I don’t care if it’s true or if it’s right. Does it work? Is it decent?
1:58:33 Is it caring? Is it warm?
1:58:36 You know, has it been adapted? It does it fit both people?
1:58:42 Those are the criterias you go back and forth like a lidoscopic not just like two ideas, you know
1:58:45 For many people the notion of radical honesty
1:58:47 transparency
1:58:53 Truth-telling authenticity those have become the values of the economy of today and so is it in the economy of the home
1:59:00 We want experience. You know, we want purposeful transformative, you know experiences. We want them at home
1:59:03 We want them at work everywhere for other people
1:59:05 Home is a different thing
1:59:09 and home is meant to satisfy other needs etc etc and
1:59:12 There is a segmentation that is accepted
1:59:16 We share these kind of things. We share other things with other people
1:59:21 And to me it’s really a matter of does it fit this particular couple?
1:59:28 Does it work for them or is there one person who is quietly hurting over a long time and kind of
1:59:35 Giving in but there’s a power dynamic because the word we haven’t used is that in all these negotiations
1:59:40 There is an element of power, you know, there is power when you bring in other people
1:59:43 There is power when you feel that the other person can leave you
1:59:47 There is power when you have faced with the hurt of a person who is constraining you
1:59:51 there is a dynamic of power in all of these issues and
1:59:56 The question is is there an equity in the decision making? Do both people
2:00:04 Feel that they have equal power in their ability to say what works for them in this instance that you describe
2:00:06 What’s beautiful is you feel like, you know
2:00:13 Whatever he does she gets to evaluate him. And so the evaluation is power. It’s authority
2:00:18 You know in a good sense of the word I use the word power and so they are calibrating power
2:00:23 You know you get to do things, but I don’t want to have to suffer because of it
2:00:27 I want to know that I still get the primary goods. I want to know that I come first
2:00:30 And so yeah, you want to go play go play
2:00:33 But don’t play on my behalf and don’t play on my account
2:00:38 I don’t want an evaluation of our assets because you are accruing other revenues somewhere else
2:00:46 You know and they play with this and so for this couple to me, you know, I’m playing my I’m putting my script onto it
2:00:48 But I when I listen to the description
2:00:54 I’m looking at what is the power distribution because the power is the sovereignty the power is the dignity of this
2:00:58 Otherwise, you know all these things become not power but power maneuvers
2:01:01 And that’s a whole other thing and that has nothing to do
2:01:05 With just sex alone, you know these things take place in a
2:01:11 All every relationship is a power dynamic. I think that that has to be laid out first
2:01:16 Inside of that we can come up with so many different arrangements
2:01:20 That people will live for a while and then switch. I want to just say that
2:01:24 I would say that to the polyamory people as well. I mean, it’s like
2:01:30 There is a beautiful proliferation of non monogamy thinking that is taking place
2:01:34 Okay, and they’re very different from the the free love pioneers of the 60s and the 70s and
2:01:39 But then of course, you know, many of those people are the children of the divorced and the disillusioned
2:01:46 And they’re not rebelling against commitment per se, but they’re looking for more realistic ways to make their vows last
2:01:48 And they’ve concluded that that
2:01:53 Includes other lovers and I think that the form, you know can vary enormously
2:01:57 You can have occasional hall passes. You can have swingers who play with others
2:02:01 You can have established three sums four sums complex polyamorous networks
2:02:06 All of these things have one purpose to reconfigure love and family life
2:02:08 Which we have done from time immemorial
2:02:12 Right you’re coming on power reminding me of
2:02:17 I think it was oscar wild said everything in the world is about sex except sex sex is about power
2:02:20 Yes, yes, yes, yes
2:02:24 You’ve spent so much time with people grappling with these issues
2:02:33 What was the research process for your new book and that is I mean really kind of fresh on the mind
2:02:35 I would think at this point for you
2:02:38 Why do another book and what was the research process like?
2:02:40 so
2:02:41 you know
2:02:47 Mating and captivity looked at the dilemmas of desire inside the relationships
2:02:53 And the state of affairs, which is my new book looks at what happens when desire goes looking elsewhere
2:03:00 And I had gone to 20 countries on book tour for mating and in many places
2:03:04 The only chapter people wanted to talk about was the shadow of the third
2:03:08 The chapter on monogamy, which was only one chapter in that whole book
2:03:15 And I thought there’s no way that I can do a thorough study of desire without looking at desire that goes wandering
2:03:22 You know, what is roaming desire like? What is the power of transgression? Why is the forbidden so erotic?
2:03:27 What is this thing called adultery which has been historically condemned and universally practiced?
2:03:30 you know and so
2:03:32 seriously
2:03:33 it’s like and
2:03:36 It took me a while. This is 10 years since I wrote mating and captivity
2:03:41 I’d not I take a long time to think and I only write if I feel I have something to say
2:03:45 And something to say means that I want to change the conversation on the subject
2:03:49 I don’t want to just add one or two thoughts. I want to really frame the conversation
2:03:50 I want to take something
2:03:55 And make a cultural shift around it. So for the past six years
2:03:57 about
2:04:03 I began to travel the globe and have conversations about the subject of infidelity
2:04:05 transgression
2:04:06 thrifts
2:04:07 love affairs
2:04:08 fuck buddies
2:04:09 betrayal
2:04:11 trauma lying deception
2:04:18 cheating gas lighting from both sides. What is gas lighting? I’ve heard this expression before and I don’t know what it is
2:04:22 Is when I say I know you are seeing somebody else. I know I know it
2:04:27 I feel it or I’ve even and you say no, no, you’re crazy. This is because of what you father did to you
2:04:33 You you just paranoid I see and you literally destroyed the coherence of my reality
2:04:38 Got it when you’re accused of something you turn it around and then sort of fracture
2:04:44 Yes, but you also literally begin to make me feel like I have no longer a grasp on reality
2:04:47 I see got it. It’s a real mental torture
2:04:54 You know, it’s not just that you’re denying is that you’re also saying is what’s wrong with me that I’m thinking this
2:04:57 And then you basically make me doubt myself
2:05:02 And you make me doubt that when I think the tea is hot, it’s actually hot
2:05:09 You know, I no longer know to trust the world that I live in my perceptions my thoughts my feelings
2:05:13 And that’s becomes an internal breakdown. It drives people crazy
2:05:18 It’s really cruel actually. It’s a very common, but it’s a cruel thing to do
2:05:19 I saw
2:05:25 You know, I’m 34 years a couple’s therapist. I have a fascination for couples. I work in seven languages
2:05:32 I can take them from all over the world and uh, and I began to only see couples who have been affected by infidelity
2:05:36 In one variation or another. I also did a TED talk in
2:05:39 Passeur, which has
2:05:45 You know, seven and a half million people in a year or two and I I thought, okay, I’ve got 1500 letters
2:05:51 I thought my god, I’m a walking confessional the world is pouring their secrets on to me
2:05:56 On this subject anyway, and let me try to think it through
2:06:02 Let me really delve into this and look at it from a systemic point of view meaning if I ask an audience
2:06:07 Have you had any experience with affairs or infidelity? You know, nobody’s going to lift their hand
2:06:10 Nobody’s going to say I cheated or I’ve been cheated on so easily
2:06:15 But if I ask the same audience, have you been affected by infidelity in your life?
2:06:20 I probably get 90 of the fingers up. It’s an amazing thing
2:06:28 As the child of as the friend of as the boss of as the lover as the other woman as the partner as the
2:06:34 Person who went out you name it and now it becomes really a collective experience
2:06:37 So I wanted to look at it from all angles
2:06:40 And I see couples two three hours at a time
2:06:44 And I delve into the labyrinth of passion
2:06:48 All of it, you know from all sides
2:06:54 And then I collected all the data. I wrote I transcribed hundreds of hours of sessions
2:07:03 I transcribed all the letters and I began to gather and then decide what are the main assumptions at this point about this subject
2:07:05 How does our culture think about this?
2:07:11 Because no matter and by the way infidelity happens in polyamorous couples too, you know
2:07:16 The fact that you get an open license doesn’t prevent people from climbing the fence
2:07:22 Something about transgression is deeply human and you’ve also observed the definition of cheating
2:07:27 Continues to expand right where you have sexting texting dating apps watching porn. I mean the
2:07:35 Inside of the wall is getting a yes narrower and narrower in some respects also absolutely the definition is elastic
2:07:36 It’s unbelievable
2:07:46 What people today how many more ways that we we define something as being outside of the of the boundaries and we consider them infidelities
2:07:51 And it is one of the experiences that encompasses the entire human drama
2:07:55 Everything jealousy hurt betrayal
2:07:56 pain
2:08:01 Lust love passion all of it. It’s like every opera. There’s a reason
2:08:03 you know
2:08:11 And it is a one of the most complex human experiences to really delve into but it is endlessly fascinating and so
2:08:15 I wanted to rethink infidelity. What does it mean today?
2:08:19 Why does it happen in any kind of relationship?
2:08:24 What does it mean to know that that your partner never really belongs to you?
2:08:27 They’re only on loan and with an option to renew or not
2:08:32 So related to that I get asked about marriage and kids a lot
2:08:35 Even though I feel very unqualified to comment on either
2:08:42 But what is the argument for marriage these days because I have trouble coming up with one
2:08:47 the argument that comes to mind because the legal construct the financial consequences the
2:08:54 difficulty in the sort of unraveling if you want to change direction or a new chapter
2:08:59 Means a new partner or whatever it might be there. There are a lot of consequences
2:09:01 now the only argument that I can come up with for it
2:09:03 is
2:09:07 Related to loss aversion where maybe if you really want to make a strong
2:09:11 Committed effort to maintain a relationship for a long period of time
2:09:15 That if you have something to lose if you don’t enforce that
2:09:21 That in this case takes the form of a legal construct that you’re not going to put in the requisite effort
2:09:24 So okay, but it just seems to me that there’s so much downside
2:09:27 That prevents flexibility
2:09:34 How do you think about that? Or is there an argument for the legal construct of marriage because I have more and more difficulty
2:09:39 As I see friends marriages imploding exploding good people often faithful people
2:09:43 It gets harder and harder for me. Yeah, but americans love to marry
2:09:50 You know once twice three times, you know part of the way that I began the project of writing about infidelity
2:09:55 Came out of the Lewinsky Clinton scandal because I was very intrigued
2:10:01 Why was this country so tolerant about multiple divorces and so intransigent about the slightest transgression?
2:10:05 Right fair enough, you know, no matter how much sex becomes open
2:10:12 They remain intransigent about the subject of infidelity and the rest of the world by the way that is more family oriented
2:10:14 Has always opted the other way around
2:10:22 You protect the family, you know, and you don’t divorce. So why americans love to marry? I have never fully
2:10:29 Understood. I mean, I have my thoughts, but it’s not like I I have a definitive answer to that. I think
2:10:37 There’s a two questions. Why is a deep meaningful connection with another human being with whom you weave a story, you know
2:10:39 Along the stages of life
2:10:46 That is one thing does it need to take place within the construct of marriage is a very different thing
2:10:50 Agreed, you know in europe we marry much less, but we have families
2:10:58 And we try to create families with what modernity has given us which is a rather nuclear model of family
2:11:03 Which is a very difficult model for family and and a terrible model for couples
2:11:09 We were not meant to be two adults with four or two or three or four children all alone in cities
2:11:12 I mean, none of it is is the way we were meant to do it
2:11:16 And so it’s extremely taxing on the couple
2:11:21 And at the same time the only reason families today survive is if the couple is doing relatively well
2:11:26 Right, that’s the only thing keeping families together. So we’re facing a very interesting thing
2:11:31 At the same time if if apple sold you a product that feels 50 of the time would you buy it?
2:11:34 In the end that’s what happens to marriage
2:11:35 for you know
2:11:43 If you think that that’s a guarantee think again because at this point it is really not doing that well in terms of guaranteeing new things
2:11:46 But I think
2:11:51 There are very few rituals at this moment, you know with the loss of traditional religion
2:11:56 There are very few rituals. There are very few structures very few institutions
2:12:02 To which we can adhere and I can see that in that sense the importance of marriage
2:12:08 As a ritual that is rooted in a tradition and that comes with a code of conduct
2:12:15 And with an official norm to it. And so that’s where I place marriage. I don’t think of it in legal terms at all
2:12:20 I think of it very much in terms of its cultural meaning, you know, it’s like a spine
2:12:26 There are very few things people can hang themselves on these days, you know, everything is about the self
2:12:30 And the burdens of the selves are very heavy at this moment. So
2:12:36 Marriage has become that that institution that still tells you how how to go about
2:12:41 Doing these things in life to me the very interesting thing when you ask about why marry
2:12:46 I think about the gay marriage gay marriage really was one of the ways to try to understand
2:12:52 What does it mean to legalize to give rights to queer families to to allow people to
2:12:57 To adhere to a norm when there are so few norms at this moment
2:13:02 Everything has been re-evaluated and redefined and I think people are
2:13:04 Sometimes very desperate for norms
2:13:10 Structures pillars architecture everything else is fluid fluid fluid, you know
2:13:15 But we all need solid as well as we need fluid and marriage has remained one of the last
2:13:21 Solid constructs, even though it fractures way too fast and way too often
2:13:24 Can you do it without marriage completely, you know
2:13:29 But for some reason people feel that commitment without the structure isn’t buttressed in the same way
2:13:34 The marriage is the buttress. It’s the fulcrum and I don’t know if
2:13:39 Relationships actually that would be an interesting thing to look at numbers do relationships that are not
2:13:46 Held together by the contract of marriage. Do they dissolve anymore in Europe than they do here?
2:13:50 I’m not sure, you know, it’s 52 or 48 at this point
2:13:54 Maybe it’s gone down a bit on first marriage, but the fascinating data is not first marriage
2:13:58 It’s 65% divorce rate on second marriages 65%
2:14:02 Yeah, that is the much more interesting data. Yeah
2:14:05 Why yeah, why why do you find it interesting?
2:14:07 Because
2:14:13 It touches on something else that I think is much more interesting as a suddenly as a couples therapist is that okay
2:14:17 Let’s assume the second time it’s easier. You’ve done it the first time you may not have the young children
2:14:23 Etc. But to me the more interesting thing is that the first time you still actually adhere to the model
2:14:27 You know, I think that often the divorces are the true idealists
2:14:32 They believe in the model. They just chose the wrong person and they’ll do better next time
2:14:40 The second time they begin to think that maybe it’s not all about the other person and that maybe it’s time to take some responsibility for themselves
2:14:46 Everybody at some point has some relationship things to work out and the only question is with home
2:14:50 Who are you going to do it with?
2:14:54 But I would see him that at some point you should also ask wait a second
2:14:56 If the people are coming out of the same factory
2:15:00 Meaning the structure that has a 50% failure rate
2:15:06 Perhaps you did the structure should also be a variable under consideration. I would think
2:15:14 Absolutely, but that’s couple them. That’s not that’s not just marriage. That would say that. Sure. I agree. You know, I think that
2:15:19 To me, I am really fascinated by how creative
2:15:23 Having just written a book about infidelity. I can tell you if people took
2:15:29 1% of the creativity that they put in their affairs and brought it to their marriages or to their relationships
2:15:33 You know, it’s astounding. It’s the same people
2:15:40 Change context and they suddenly are filled with imagination and attention and focus and and generosity and kindness and desires
2:15:49 It’s like it’s not marriage per se as couple them and for some reasons the expectations of couple them have never been higher
2:15:53 But what people invest in it hasn’t really measured up
2:15:56 To bring the best of themselves not to their partner
2:15:59 They bring the best of themselves at work to their friends
2:16:06 To their colleagues to their hobbies to their children for that matter much more not to their partner
2:16:09 And that is a much more interesting thing to me
2:16:16 Than marriage per se. It’s like I don’t ask so much. Why do people marry? I ask more. Why do people
2:16:24 So often bring the leftovers to their partner while at the same time wanting their relationships to be so glorious
2:16:26 Something doesn’t click
2:16:28 What do you think the answer is?
2:16:33 You know, it’s like when people say my partner is my best friend and I’m sometimes especially in my office
2:16:35 I have to say do you treat your best friend like this?
2:16:38 Right
2:16:40 What kind of bs is this?
2:16:46 I mean, no, no, that’s not how you you know, would you say this to somebody else?
2:16:49 Could you imagine being that critical with your friends?
2:16:52 What is the idea? And this is where marriage comes in
2:16:57 It’s because you really think that because you married the other person is just going to be there and take it
2:17:02 Vice versa. This is in both directions, right? It’s like there is something about the seal
2:17:07 Underneath that has locked this that allows people to then
2:17:09 behave subpar
2:17:11 Right
2:17:15 And maybe if there was more of a fear that of losing it because your friends won’t take it
2:17:20 Certainly your boss won’t take it. Your colleagues won’t take it. You behave that way at work. You’re out
2:17:24 But at home you think you can do these things
2:17:31 You can treat people really poorly. You can put them down. You can disqualify them. You cannot listen to them
2:17:35 You can shout you can kick you can neglect them. You can be indifferent
2:17:40 I mean, my god, there is so many ways to not behave well at home and then call them, you know
2:17:48 It’s like to me, this is where I make people accountable. It’s like, excuse me. You can’t trap another person. This is like, you know
2:17:51 Marital sadism
2:18:02 So you have a week at dark for hours and you have a number of different venues and vehicles through which you’re exploring these topics
2:18:04 the
2:18:08 Book is one of course and what could you say the title of the new book one more time, please
2:18:13 So the book is the state of affairs rethinking infidelity
2:18:20 So I suspect that will be as your talks and previous work has been very very popular and topical
2:18:24 I would say this. I would say why do people cheat?
2:18:26 Why do happy people cheat?
2:18:29 Is infidelity always a deal breaker?
2:18:37 Why do we think that men need variety and are bored whereas we think that women are hungry for intimacy and lonely
2:18:40 Why do we have such complete different ideas about why men and women cheat?
2:18:44 What do we do with jealousy?
2:18:50 Can love ever be plural? Is possessiveness an arcane vestige of patriarchy or is it intrinsic to love?
2:18:58 Tell these questions that I’m taking on and you’re also going to be exploring that in your own
2:19:05 Program on an audible channel soon as I understand it. Yes. Yeah, if you wouldn’t mind describing that just a little bit
2:19:09 Yes, I’m very excited about I mean, I mean, it’s really
2:19:16 Different ways of exploring. You know the book the state of affairs is not really a book about infidelity
2:19:21 It’s really a book about what do we learn from infidelity about the human heart and the human condition?
2:19:22 so
2:19:28 I use that lens to enter and to excavate many many subjects and I wanted
2:19:34 To also have you know the opportunity of letting people come into my office and actually
2:19:41 Be in those conversations that I have with couples because most of the time we have no idea what happens in a couple
2:19:44 You know couples are isolated islands
2:19:47 Sometimes the women may talk to somebody and the men talk to very few
2:19:55 And so we have no idea what’s in the anti chamber, you know of the couple and I did a series with audible
2:20:00 And we’re going to do a second one already that of 10 couples therapy sessions
2:20:03 covering a range of subjects
2:20:08 Where you think you are actually entering into the intimacy
2:20:13 Of these other relationships and you very quickly realize that you’re actually looking inside
2:20:17 You’re looking at your own mirror and you’re looking at yourselves
2:20:22 And you start to talk with the persons at the people of your life your partners or others
2:20:25 About where you are in relation to these questions
2:20:30 So say and there are stories of infidelity and stories of sexuality and stories of
2:20:35 raising children and stories of of infertility and stories of unemployment and it’s a
2:20:41 Very very poignant experience because it’s intimate in your ear. You don’t see them
2:20:44 But you hear them 10 couples who have volunteered
2:20:52 To come and have a session with me like I do generally in my office. It’s exactly what I would normally do but this time
2:20:57 Recorded and told so as stories to share and stories to
2:21:03 Invest ourselves in what is the name of the series? Where should we begin? Where should we begin?
2:21:09 Isn’t that what every session starts? Indeed. Where should we begin?
2:21:15 And for people listening in these show notes, I will have links to
2:21:22 Everything that I can get links to that we’ve discussed the podcast comes out may 18 and at first it will be
2:21:30 Unaudible and on amazon prime and then the book comes out in september will be in stores october 10
2:21:36 And then the podcast will also be released on itunes and so it will be re-released
2:21:39 At the same time as the book comes out
2:21:41 So I have just a few more questions
2:21:46 I want to let you get back to your day, but just as we wrap up a few quick questions
2:21:53 One is what books besides your own have you gifted the most to other people or the book?
2:21:57 I’ve probably gifted the most is victor frankle the search for meaning
2:22:00 Since i’m 16
2:22:08 That’s a fantastic book and what about reread the most yourself what book have you reread or books anything that any books
2:22:10 That come to mind that you’ve reread
2:22:17 I recently reread the art of loving by eric from I reread the erotic mind by jack moren
2:22:20 I
2:22:21 reread
2:22:25 For this book. I reread madame bovary, which was very disappointing
2:22:31 How I’ll tell you what I reread that I loved because one of my kids was reading it in school crime and punishment
2:22:37 Yeah, no, you cannot reread the russians that that will just I don’t they they are
2:22:40 timeless
2:22:42 And
2:22:45 If you had a billboard this is a metaphor question
2:22:48 But if you had a huge billboard where you could put a short message on it
2:22:54 Non-commercial but a short message up could be one word could be a sentence could be whatever to get out to millions of people
2:22:57 Well, what would you put on that billboard or what might you put on that billboard?
2:23:00 There’s always more you can do for another
2:23:03 Just don’t have your day
2:23:07 Without having done something for someone that you don’t know for that matter
2:23:10 Not just for the ones that are in your little circle
2:23:13 I don’t know in a billboard. It would say
2:23:15 do your part
2:23:17 I love it and any
2:23:23 parting comments requests of the audience could be the same thing that you just said but are any parting thoughts questions
2:23:28 Or suggestions for people who are listening any ask of the audience
2:23:32 You know the reason I see do your part is because so much
2:23:36 Of the culture we live in is about doing things for ourselves
2:23:41 Enhancing ourselves pushing ourselves being more successful being more
2:23:44 Held, you know, and it is the most powerful
2:23:49 Anti-depressants I know that you do something on the depression front as well
2:23:53 And I think that the curse of today is isolation
2:23:58 There’s a lot of other things we have gained but we have lost something and isolation
2:24:01 And disconnection it’s a curse of modern life
2:24:04 and I think that
2:24:12 There is no more powerful anti-depressants nothing that will give us more meaning in life than to know that we matter for others
2:24:16 And that means to do for others which is a little bit what couples therapy is about
2:24:19 You know, most of the time people come to couples therapy
2:24:22 They don’t come in order to say I came to check myself out
2:24:27 They’ve usually come to be an expert on the other and they say fix it and do something, you know
2:24:30 Or I came to drop off, you know
2:24:35 So I’m all the time thinking, you know, and what are you doing take responsibility?
2:24:37 You know, it’s freedom responsibility
2:24:44 And for the rest it’s like if any of you are inspired by what I say is join me on all the platforms where you can find me
2:24:48 So easily and there’s nothing I think I value more than to be in conversation
2:24:50 Like I’ve so enjoyed our conversation
2:24:52 You and I and
2:24:58 To talk about these things it’s part of everybody’s life all the time love sex trust
2:25:02 Empty commitment. What else is there? You know, absolutely
2:25:09 And where is the best place on social media for people to say hello to you if they wanted to say hello?
2:25:11 Is there anyone preferred place?
2:25:18 I would see my fan page on on facebook probably but I am on twitter and i’m on instagram and i’m on youtube
2:25:25 I’m doing this whole beautiful series actually of videos that i’m putting up on youtube on relational intelligence
2:25:30 That I think kind of a snapshot. So when I say in short what I often say in long
2:25:33 I’ll tell you what I want is
2:25:39 We have often these days try to simplify things and I think what I try to do is create
2:25:43 A conversation and relationships and love and all of that
2:25:49 At work as well as at home both levels of relationships in business in companies, etc
2:25:51 That embraces complexity
2:25:57 That’s multicultural and that’s inclusive and I think that the more people join this
2:26:01 The more you will help me do my piece of social change
2:26:08 So everybody definitely say hello to esther esther dot parel on facebook instagram esther parel official
2:26:13 youtube parel esther switch now put all of these in the show notes esther
2:26:16 Thank you so much for taking the time. This is a real joy
2:26:19 and tremendously
2:26:24 Stimulating and thought-provoking have a lot to a lot to think on so I appreciate you
2:26:27 Sharing your expertise and your experiences with us
2:26:32 Thank you. It’s a treat. Thanks a lot and to everybody listening
2:26:36 You can find links to everything that has been mentioned the books the podcast
2:26:38 everything imaginable
2:26:44 In these show notes as usual with every other episode you can just go to tim dot blog forward slash podcast
2:26:47 And until next time. Thank you for listening
2:26:55 Hey guys, this is tim again just one more thing before you take off and that is five bullet friday
2:27:00 Would you enjoy getting a short email from me every friday that provides a little fun before the weekend?
2:27:04 Between one and a half and two million people subscribe to my free newsletter
2:27:08 My super short newsletter called five bullet friday easy to sign up easy to cancel
2:27:11 It is basically a half page
2:27:18 That I send out every friday to share the coolest things i’ve found or discovered or have started exploring over that week
2:27:22 It’s kind of like my diary of cool things. It often includes articles. I’m reading books. I’m reading
2:27:31 Albums, perhaps gadgets gizmos all sorts of tech tricks and so on they get sent to me by my friends including a lot of podcast
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2:27:45 So if that sounds fun again, it’s very short a little tiny bite of goodness before you head off for the weekend
2:27:52 Something to think about if you’d like to try it out. Just go to tim.vlog/friday type that into your browser tim.vlog/friday
2:27:57 Drop in your email and you’ll get the very next one. Thanks for listening
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2:30:27 I don’t know about you guys, but i’ve had the experience of traveling overseas and i try to access something say a show
2:30:30 on amazon or elsewhere
2:30:34 And it says not available in your current location something like that or
2:30:37 Creepier still if you’re at home and this is happening
2:30:40 I search for something or I type in a url
2:30:46 Incorrectly and then a screen for AT&T pops up and it says you might be searching for this
2:30:51 How about that and it suggests an alternative and i think to myself wait a second
2:30:56 My internet service provider is tracking my searches and what i’m typing into the browser
2:31:02 Yeah, I don’t love it and a lot of you know I take privacy and security very seriously
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2:33:03 (audience applauding)