#798: Terry Real, Relationship Coach — Tools and Practices for Couples

0:00:02 – Hello, ladies and germs, boys and girls.
0:00:03 This is Tim Ferriss.
0:00:05 Welcome to another episode of The Tim Ferriss Show.
0:00:08 For this episode, I’m going to offer something
0:00:09 a little different.
0:00:12 I’m going to introduce you to Terry Reel.
0:00:16 Terry Reel is by far the best relationship coach,
0:00:20 the best couples therapist I have ever met.
0:00:23 He does not just parrot back questions.
0:00:24 If you ask him what he thinks,
0:00:26 he will not just ask you what you think.
0:00:29 He has strong opinions, positions.
0:00:33 He says it straight and first and foremost,
0:00:34 he has a toolkit.
0:00:39 He has practices that are incredibly helpful for couples
0:00:41 and his name has come up with various friends
0:00:44 ranging from Kevin Rose to Dr. Peter Atia
0:00:46 and he does not disappoint.
0:00:47 So in this episode,
0:00:49 because he is very, very hard to get a hold of
0:00:51 for direct client work,
0:00:55 you will get to in effect hear him like you would
0:00:58 in a real session and I’ve done real sessions with him.
0:01:00 So what you’ll hear in this episode and learn
0:01:02 among other things are number one,
0:01:05 that relationships are not always harmonious.
0:01:06 And that’ll be obvious to anyone who’s been married
0:01:08 for a while, for instance,
0:01:11 but it is a constant cycle of harmony to disharmony
0:01:13 and then repair.
0:01:16 So the critical skill set is repair.
0:01:19 And what I’m going to share in this episode,
0:01:20 because I was so impressed by it,
0:01:24 are a few chapters from his book, Fierce Intimacy.
0:01:27 And this will provide you with a map
0:01:29 for identifying losing strategies
0:01:32 and replacing them with winning strategies.
0:01:35 These are real approaches that you can use.
0:01:36 So a bit of background on Terry,
0:01:39 he is the creator of relational life therapy or RLT,
0:01:41 which underpins all of his books, courses, teachings
0:01:42 and so on.
0:01:44 He is also the author of five books,
0:01:46 including the New York Times bestseller Us,
0:01:48 subtitled Getting Past You and Me
0:01:51 to build a more loving relationship.
0:01:52 Last but not least,
0:01:54 I’ll throw in a little bonus and that is,
0:01:57 if you’d like an extra dose of calm, C-A-L-M,
0:01:59 I recommend checking out Henry Schuchman,
0:02:01 a past podcast guest
0:02:03 and one of only a few dozen masters
0:02:05 in the world authorized to teach Sam Bozen.
0:02:08 His app, The Way, has changed my life.
0:02:09 I’ve been using it daily, often twice a day
0:02:13 and it’s lowered my anxiety more than I thought possible.
0:02:16 And equivalent to a lot of the more aggressive things
0:02:19 I’ve done, like accelerated TMS and other therapies.
0:02:22 So try it out for 30 free sessions,
0:02:25 you can just visit TheWayApp.com/Tim,
0:02:28 that’s TheWayApp.com/Tim, no credit card required.
0:02:30 So you will have a very good feeling
0:02:33 for if it’s working for you after, I would say, 10 sessions.
0:02:37 You can find all things TerryReal at TerryReal.com,
0:02:40 that’s T-E-R-R-Y-R-E-A-L.com.
0:02:42 And now, please enjoy these chapters
0:02:47 from Fierce Intimacy by none other than TerryReal.
0:02:49 (upbeat music)
0:02:52 – This altitude I can run flat out for a half mile
0:02:54 before my hands start shaking.
0:02:56 – Can I answer your personal question?
0:02:58 – No, I would’ve seen it, but I don’t have time to answer.
0:02:59 – What if I did the opposite?
0:03:01 – I’m a cyber-nerdy organism,
0:03:03 living this year over a mental endoskeleton.
0:03:06 ♪ Me, Tim, Ferris, y’all ♪
0:03:13 – Let me talk for a moment
0:03:15 about the nature of relationships to begin with.
0:03:21 All relationships are an endless dance
0:03:25 of harmony, disharmony, and repair.
0:03:30 Closeness, disruption, and a return to closeness.
0:03:33 My paradigm for this came from the work
0:03:36 of researcher Ed Tronic at Harvard,
0:03:39 who was one of the first of a generation of people
0:03:42 to actually plunk down a video camera
0:03:45 and record what the transactions are
0:03:47 between mothers and infants.
0:03:50 Before infant observational research,
0:03:53 Freud had taught us that the relationship
0:03:56 between mothers and infants was an endless dance
0:03:59 of oceanic bliss.
0:04:02 Clearly, Freud had never talked to a mother.
0:04:06 The real relationship, as Tronic’s video recorded,
0:04:11 was this dance of closeness, disruption, and return.
0:04:15 The infant starts off molded in the mother’s arms,
0:04:17 totally relaxed, a little noodle,
0:04:20 and they’re in perfect harmony with each other.
0:04:23 Then some gas arises or a hunger pang
0:04:25 or there’s a noise in the street.
0:04:26 The baby goes nuts.
0:04:29 The baby goes through a flurry of disruption.
0:04:32 The mother tries to soothe the baby
0:04:34 to the degree to which the mother fails.
0:04:37 The mother goes through a flurry of disruption.
0:04:40 The two of them are absolutely at odds with each other,
0:04:42 trying to find harmony and peace.
0:04:45 And then the pacifier is accepted
0:04:48 or the nipple is taken or the gas passes
0:04:50 or the noise dies away
0:04:54 and the baby goes back to molded
0:04:57 and noodle and all is well.
0:05:01 This dance, harmony, disharmony, and repair
0:05:04 is the essential rhythm
0:05:09 of all human intimate relationships.
0:05:11 Harmony, disharmony, and repair,
0:05:14 closeness, disruption, and a return to closeness.
0:05:18 This dance can play out 20 times
0:05:21 during the course of one dinner conversation.
0:05:23 During the course of one dinner conversation,
0:05:26 your partner can look to you lovely,
0:05:30 homely, scintillating, boring,
0:05:33 just the way you can see yourself.
0:05:35 The psychoanalyst, Ethel Person,
0:05:39 once said that as you go through these endless variations
0:05:42 during the course of one dinner conversation,
0:05:45 handsome, ugly, scintillating, boring,
0:05:49 a normal person gets up at the end of that dinner
0:05:52 and says, that was a nice dinner.
0:05:55 A grandiose or narcissistic person gets up and says,
0:05:57 you know, if I was with the right partner,
0:06:00 these fluctuations wouldn’t be happening.
0:06:03 There’s nothing abnormal about this rhythm.
0:06:06 It’s the same rhythm in the relationship you have
0:06:11 with yourself, harmony, disharmony, and repair.
0:06:15 Closeness, disillusionment, and a return to closeness.
0:06:20 This relationship, harmony, disharmony, and repair
0:06:23 can also play out during the course of decades
0:06:27 in one marriage or one relationship.
0:06:31 I talk about three phases of love.
0:06:35 The harmony phase I call love without knowledge.
0:06:37 You can have a deep soul recognition
0:06:40 that this is the person who’s the dream of your life.
0:06:44 And you may know that, but you don’t know
0:06:46 what the bottom of their closet looks like,
0:06:49 or what they do with their underwear at night,
0:06:52 or how their bills are being paid.
0:06:56 You have a deep intimate connection with them
0:07:00 at one soulful level, but you don’t know them very well.
0:07:04 That harmony phase is inevitably followed
0:07:08 by disillusionment, disharmony.
0:07:10 And when you’re in the disillusionment phase,
0:07:13 I call that knowledge without love.
0:07:17 Now you see all your partners, warts and moles,
0:07:20 you know all about their imperfections,
0:07:22 but you don’t love them very much.
0:07:26 In fact, you’re pretty hurt and angry.
0:07:29 This is the dark night of the soul
0:07:33 that is a part of all relationships.
0:07:36 And it’s rarely acknowledged in our culture.
0:07:39 In our culture, just like a good body
0:07:43 is a 17-year-old body, and a good sex life
0:07:44 is the sex that you have
0:07:46 in the first three months of your relationship.
0:07:49 A good relationship is all harmony.
0:07:53 There’s nothing about disharmony and repair.
0:07:56 You know, just once, I’d like to be at a cocktail party,
0:08:00 and instead of hearing, oh, there’s Herbie and Sylvia.
0:08:02 They’ve been married 53 years,
0:08:06 and they have the same wonderful, passionate sex life
0:08:07 that they had in their 20s.
0:08:08 They never fight.
0:08:11 They’re always, just once instead of that,
0:08:15 I’d like to hear, oh, there’s Herbie and Sylvia.
0:08:17 They actually separated a couple of three times
0:08:18 during the course of their marriage.
0:08:20 He had an affair while they were separated.
0:08:23 She’s really never quite completely gotten over it,
0:08:26 but they’ve managed to survive, endure,
0:08:29 and be with each other and not lose their grip.
0:08:34 I think they’re really a loving pair, aren’t they cute?
0:08:37 Just once, I’d like to hear that, but you don’t.
0:08:41 Disharmony, disillusionment is rarely acknowledged.
0:08:43 No one tells you how dark it is.
0:08:46 No one tells you how raw it is.
0:08:48 The great couples’ therapist,
0:08:50 some would say the father of couples’ therapy,
0:08:53 James Frimo, wrote back in the ’50s
0:08:56 when it was assumed that the person you were sleeping with
0:08:58 was your spouse, by the way.
0:09:01 Frimo wrote, the day you turn over in bed,
0:09:04 look at the person next to you and realize
0:09:06 this is a dreadful mistake.
0:09:08 You have been had.
0:09:11 The one you fell in love with is not the one
0:09:13 you’re spending your life with.
0:09:18 That day says Frimo is the first day of your real marriage.
0:09:22 Harmony and then disillusionment.
0:09:24 Knowledge without love.
0:09:25 It’s dark.
0:09:26 It’s raw.
0:09:27 It’s desperate.
0:09:29 You feel very alone.
0:09:31 You feel betrayed.
0:09:32 You feel had.
0:09:34 Guess what?
0:09:36 That’s normal.
0:09:38 That doesn’t mean you’re in a bad marriage
0:09:40 or a bad long-term relationship.
0:09:41 It means you’re married.
0:09:47 It is an integral part of all relationships.
0:09:50 For over 20 years, I’ve gone around the country
0:09:52 talking to people about what I call
0:09:55 normal marital hatred.
0:09:56 And you know what?
0:09:59 Not one person has gone backstage and said to me,
0:10:01 “Terry, what do you mean by that?”
0:10:06 Normal marital hatred is part of the deal.
0:10:09 The trick is getting from that dark night
0:10:11 back into the light again,
0:10:14 moving from disharmony into repair.
0:10:17 Disharmony into repair.
0:10:19 What is repair?
0:10:21 Knowing love.
0:10:22 Mature love.
0:10:27 In this phase, you also see your partner’s warts and molds,
0:10:29 but you choose to love them anyway.
0:10:31 They are worth it.
0:10:34 The good things you’re getting outweigh the bad.
0:10:37 Now, if you’re in a place
0:10:40 where that disharmony phase is really calling to you
0:10:45 and you’re thinking, “Should I stay or should I go?”
0:10:47 I have a tool for you.
0:10:51 And I like to interrupt whatever the lecture is
0:10:54 to actually give you a concrete tool you might use.
0:10:56 For those of you who are wondering
0:10:58 whether you should stay or you should go,
0:10:59 here’s the tool.
0:11:02 I call it a relational reckoning.
0:11:04 Relational reckoning.
0:11:08 Relational reckoning is a question,
0:11:12 a question that you ask yourself, and it’s simply this.
0:11:16 Am I getting enough in this relationship
0:11:21 to make grieving what I’m not getting worth my while?
0:11:25 Am I getting enough in this relationship
0:11:30 to offset the pain of what’s wrong and what’s lacking?
0:11:34 And grieve you will.
0:11:36 We long for perfection.
0:11:39 We all long for gods and goddesses
0:11:41 who will never let us down.
0:11:43 But real relationships, of course,
0:11:47 are about the collision of your human imperfection
0:11:49 with your partners and how you manage it.
0:11:52 I wouldn’t want a perfect relationship.
0:11:56 The collision of my humanity with yours is the guts,
0:12:00 the stuff of intimacy itself.
0:12:02 Harmony, disharmony, repair.
0:12:07 How do we get from disharmony to repair?
0:12:10 That’s where the skills come in.
0:12:14 And that’s where most of us lose our way.
0:12:18 Because it’s only the functional adult part of us
0:12:20 that will turn to skills.
0:12:23 And what happens to the disharmony phase
0:12:25 is that we are triggered.
0:12:28 Early wounds, old family of origin dramas
0:12:30 come to the surface.
0:12:33 We take our eyes off the prize.
0:12:36 We stop thinking about making things better
0:12:38 between us and the partner we love.
0:12:43 And instead, we are taken over by adaptive child strategies,
0:12:47 by different agendas.
0:12:50 And actually, I sat down one day
0:12:53 and figured out what they were.
0:12:55 They’re not infinite.
0:12:56 They’re only five of them.
0:13:00 Here are the five losing strategies.
0:13:03 Being right, controlling your partner,
0:13:05 unbridled self-expression,
0:13:09 retaliation, and withdrawal.
0:13:14 Being right, control, unbridled self-expression,
0:13:17 retaliation, and withdrawal.
0:13:19 Let’s take each of them in turn.
0:13:22 Being right.
0:13:28 How many of you have ever tried to “solve”
0:13:30 or “resolve” an issue
0:13:34 by sorting out which of the two of you was correct?
0:13:36 Who remembered it correctly?
0:13:38 Or whose feelings were valid?
0:13:43 Or who has the correct perspective on this issue?
0:13:46 What’s objectively true?
0:13:48 How well did that work for you?
0:13:49 You know what?
0:13:53 Trying to solve an issue by figuring out who’s right
0:13:56 is using the scientific method
0:13:59 to solve your relational problems.
0:14:01 I have a warm spot in my heart for it.
0:14:04 It does not work.
0:14:06 As we talk together,
0:14:10 you’re going to be asked to swallow a few bitter pills.
0:14:12 And here’s one of the first ones.
0:14:13 Ready?
0:14:18 Objective reality has no place in personal relationships.
0:14:23 Objective reality doesn’t matter.
0:14:25 The relational answer to the question who’s right
0:14:27 and who’s wrong is who cares.
0:14:31 What matters is,
0:14:33 how are the two of us going to work like a team
0:14:37 and solve this issue in a way that we can both live with?
0:14:42 When you’re about trying to resolve your issue
0:14:44 of who’s right and who’s wrong,
0:14:47 you’re trying to resolve your differences
0:14:49 by eradicating them.
0:14:51 Let’s come up with one version
0:14:53 of what the correct issue is here.
0:14:57 And of course, when I do that with my wife, Belinda,
0:15:01 she has an incredibly pathological pesky way
0:15:03 of thinking that her version happens
0:15:06 to be the one we should settle on.
0:15:07 Poor woman.
0:15:11 What being right leads you into as a couple
0:15:15 is what I call perception battles or objectivity battles.
0:15:16 You know what?
0:15:19 Last night when we were at the Indian restaurant
0:15:20 and you yelled at the waiter,
0:15:22 “Honey, I didn’t yell at the waiter.
0:15:24 I was being emphatic.”
0:15:26 No, sweetheart, you weren’t emphatic.
0:15:27 You were yelling.
0:15:29 No, I was emphatic.
0:15:32 Yelling, emphatic, yelling, emphatic.
0:15:34 Well, you know what, dear?
0:15:36 It so happens there was an audiologist sitting
0:15:39 at the table next to us with an instrument
0:15:41 that measured your decibel level
0:15:45 and compared it to the norm of restaurant conversation.
0:15:47 It’s a loser.
0:15:50 It’s a dog chasing its own tail.
0:15:52 Trying to sort out your differences
0:15:55 by figuring out who’s right and who’s wrong
0:15:58 is an endless losing strategy.
0:16:01 At its most extreme,
0:16:05 being right becomes self-righteous indignation.
0:16:09 And self-righteous indignation is toxic in a relationship.
0:16:11 There’s no place for it.
0:16:13 There’s no need for it.
0:16:14 It does damage.
0:16:18 Self-righteous indignation is not just I’m right.
0:16:20 It’s also you’re wrong.
0:16:23 It’s intrinsically shaming.
0:16:25 Otherwise, I wouldn’t be indignant.
0:16:28 I’m indignant because you’re such a jerk.
0:16:31 Lose this losing strategy.
0:16:33 Being right will never work.
0:16:37 The second losing strategy
0:16:41 is trying to control your partner.
0:16:45 Trying to get your partner to see this or that,
0:16:46 to do this or that,
0:16:50 is always intrinsically one-up and condescending.
0:16:53 Who are you to tell another adult
0:16:56 what they should or shouldn’t be doing?
0:17:00 There are two forms of an attempt to control.
0:17:01 There’s direct control.
0:17:04 Sit down, shut up, and do what I tell you.
0:17:08 And there’s indirect control, also called manipulation.
0:17:10 Now, let me ask you.
0:17:14 Which sex do you think specializes in direct control?
0:17:16 You’re right.
0:17:18 It’s a male thing.
0:17:23 Often to great detriment, even at times abuse.
0:17:29 And, sorry, which sex tends toward indirect control
0:17:31 or manipulation?
0:17:33 Yes, it’s women.
0:17:38 Now look, women are not relational angels either.
0:17:42 It is part of the traditional female role
0:17:45 to be indirect and manipulative.
0:17:49 One of the things I say is that leading men and women
0:17:53 into increased intimacy is synonymous
0:17:55 with leading them out of patriarchy,
0:17:58 out of traditional gender roles for both.
0:18:01 Because men learn to close their hearts
0:18:05 and women learn to close their voices.
0:18:09 You can’t blame a group for exercising indirect control
0:18:12 when direct control has been blocked.
0:18:15 But nevertheless, manipulation is part
0:18:17 of the traditional female role.
0:18:21 I don’t know how many of you ever seen the movie
0:18:23 My Big Fat Greek Wedding.
0:18:26 But you know, when you get into relational recovery,
0:18:29 the culture at large finds things amusing or funny.
0:18:32 And you are, frankly, somewhat appalled.
0:18:37 Remember the scene where the mother triumphantly states,
0:18:41 man is the head of the family, but woman is the neck.
0:18:44 And where the neck moves, the head moves.
0:18:46 Everybody thought that was adorable.
0:18:48 I thought it was, frankly, appalling.
0:18:52 It’s a pin to the power of manipulation.
0:18:57 Men have a lot of reasons for mistrusting women.
0:19:00 And many of them are about men and about men’s pathologies.
0:19:02 But this one is real.
0:19:05 Men mistrust women because they feel played by them.
0:19:08 They feel managed by them.
0:19:11 And it takes a lot to help a woman move out
0:19:16 of managing their man to a place of forthrightness,
0:19:18 of telling the truth and taking them on.
0:19:22 It’s a scary thing to do for a lot of women,
0:19:26 but it beats manipulation and control hands down.
0:19:31 You know, short of a gun to the head,
0:19:34 I don’t believe that anybody gets to control anybody.
0:19:36 It’s a dance.
0:19:39 One person acts in a bullying manner,
0:19:41 and the other person relents.
0:19:44 It’s a contract between the two of them.
0:19:48 The person who’s relenting is not being made to relent.
0:19:51 We don’t do victims in relational work.
0:19:56 The person who relents relents because they choose to.
0:20:01 So there is no such thing as an absolute ability to control.
0:20:06 I’ll tell you, the person who had that one down
0:20:08 was Mahatma Gandhi.
0:20:10 Gandhi knew that if you were willing
0:20:12 to sacrifice your life,
0:20:16 no one could have any control over you whatsoever.
0:20:19 That is the core of civil disobedience,
0:20:22 which brought down an empire.
0:20:27 So control is an illusion, but it’s a costly illusion.
0:20:30 You may not really control your partner.
0:20:33 You can act like you’re controlling your partner.
0:20:35 You may win the battle.
0:20:37 You will lose the war.
0:20:39 Can I tell you why?
0:20:40 Ready?
0:20:42 Here’s a big spiritual truth.
0:20:45 When I do this in a workshop,
0:20:47 I actually ask people to give me a drum roll.
0:20:50 So in your mind’s eye, give me a drum roll.
0:20:51 Here it is.
0:20:55 People don’t like being controlled.
0:20:57 You wanna hear that again?
0:20:59 People don’t like being controlled.
0:21:02 You can bully your way through and wind up
0:21:06 at the Chinese restaurant instead of the Japanese restaurant
0:21:08 and get your way in the short run,
0:21:12 but there will be payback in resentment.
0:21:15 Every time your partner goes beyond their limits
0:21:18 and yields to you in ways they don’t really want to,
0:21:21 trust there will be an underbelly.
0:21:22 There will be payback.
0:21:25 It’s not in your interest,
0:21:29 whether the control quote unquote works or doesn’t work,
0:21:32 it in reality never works.
0:21:33 Give it up.
0:21:39 The third losing strategy is one of my personal favorites,
0:21:41 unbridled self-expression.
0:21:43 Ventilating.
0:21:46 It’s not just you did this today,
0:21:47 but you did this today,
0:21:49 you did the same thing a week ago,
0:21:52 you did other things three weeks ago,
0:21:54 10 years ago you did this, that and the other thing,
0:21:58 you never, you always, you are,
0:22:00 I feel so bad about.
0:22:04 I call this the barf bag approach to intimacy.
0:22:05 Blah.
0:22:09 Here, hold this, I feel so much better.
0:22:12 Listen, bringing in every past offense
0:22:17 that remotely ties into the current issue is not a winner.
0:22:22 Throwing in the kitchen sink is not going to get you anywhere.
0:22:24 And I’ll tell you why.
0:22:25 This is kind of interesting.
0:22:29 Functional moves in a relationship
0:22:32 are moves that empower your partner
0:22:34 to come through for you, right?
0:22:36 You want them to change.
0:22:38 Functional moves on your side
0:22:40 are moves that invite them to change.
0:22:42 Functional moves in a car
0:22:44 are moves that get the car to go.
0:22:47 Dysfunctional moves in a relationship
0:22:50 are moves that render your partner helpless.
0:22:53 The more helpless you render your partner,
0:22:57 the dirtier and nastier the move is gonna feel.
0:23:01 So you tell somebody what they didn’t do today,
0:23:03 they can do something about it.
0:23:06 You tell them what they didn’t do today,
0:23:09 two days ago, three years ago, five years ago,
0:23:12 there’s a lot less they can do about it.
0:23:14 At this point, they’re starting to feel helpless
0:23:16 and helpless always means resentful.
0:23:21 You tell them what they did two, three, four years ago
0:23:24 and then you move into what I call trend talk.
0:23:26 You always, you never.
0:23:29 You always like this, you’ll never do this
0:23:32 and you’re pounding the guy or gal into the ground.
0:23:34 There’s really nothing they can do about it.
0:23:38 And then the next step in most escalations is character.
0:23:41 You did this, you’ve done it before,
0:23:44 you always, you never, you are a.
0:23:45 You’re basically a slob.
0:23:48 You’re basically a witch like your mother.
0:23:52 You’re basically a selfish jerk like your dad.
0:23:56 That is truly nasty and truly helplessness engendering.
0:24:00 You know, this is something the field of psychotherapy
0:24:03 has been a great aider and a better of.
0:24:07 The idea here is that you either get it off your chest
0:24:11 or you somehow inhibit it to your detriment.
0:24:14 You either express it or you’re suppress it.
0:24:15 That’s Freud.
0:24:19 You know, when Freud was writing,
0:24:23 the great metaphor of the time was the internal steam engine.
0:24:25 It was the industrial revolution,
0:24:29 just like computers today are the great metaphor of our time.
0:24:32 The steam engine was then, and if you read Freud,
0:24:35 the human psyche looks like a steam engine.
0:24:39 Energy gets dammed up over here and leaks out over there,
0:24:42 gets suppressed over here and explodes over there.
0:24:45 It’s like we’re a hydraulic machine.
0:24:48 It doesn’t work like that in real life.
0:24:51 If you don’t express every emotion you’re feeling,
0:24:55 trust me, your ears will not fall off your head.
0:24:56 I can prove it to you.
0:24:59 Look, how many of you are parents?
0:25:02 If you’re a parent and you’re listening to this program,
0:25:05 ask yourself this question and be honest.
0:25:07 How many times when I’ve been interacting
0:25:10 with little Johnny or little Sally,
0:25:13 have I wanted to throw the bugger out the window?
0:25:15 How many times have I wanted to haul off
0:25:17 and yell and scream and carry on
0:25:20 at my impossible demonic child?
0:25:22 If you’re honest, there are lots of them.
0:25:27 Do you do it? Sometimes you may yell more than you want to,
0:25:29 but mostly you contain yourself.
0:25:33 That’s a good example of using that containing boundary.
0:25:35 You don’t yell and scream and call your kids
0:25:39 all sorts of mean and nasty names if you’re a healthy parent,
0:25:42 even though you may have the impulse to do so.
0:25:44 Okay, so you’ve just spent your time,
0:25:46 your day, with your child,
0:25:48 who’s been really impossible that day
0:25:51 and you’ve really wanted to just be angry
0:25:54 and expressive to them, but you’ve controlled yourself.
0:25:57 When your partner comes home and relieves you,
0:26:00 do you say to them, look, I need to go into a quiet closet
0:26:03 and yell and scream for 15 minutes
0:26:04 to get this off my chest?
0:26:08 I’ve been suppressing it all day? Of course you don’t.
0:26:11 You know that not doing that to your child
0:26:14 is just part of being a grownup.
0:26:17 Those are not pent up emotions.
0:26:21 Those are emotions that you’ve chosen not to express
0:26:25 because it’s not appropriate for you or the child.
0:26:26 Well, guess what?
0:26:30 It’s not appropriate for you and your partner either.
0:26:35 I will give you a format for complaining about your partner
0:26:37 as we go along this program.
0:26:41 Trust me, it is very rigid.
0:26:45 It is very structured and it’s very brief.
0:26:50 Ventilating ad nauseam is not a winning strategy.
0:26:53 Neither is excessive sharing.
0:26:55 I remember a guy walked into my office
0:26:58 and looked at his wife and said,
0:27:02 “You know, honey, as sexy as you are,
0:27:03 “for all these years,
0:27:07 “I’ve always been secretly attracted to your sister.
0:27:10 “Gee, it’s great to get that off my chest.
0:27:13 “Yeah, great for him.
0:27:15 “His wife wasn’t having a good day.
0:27:18 “You know what, use that containing boundary.
0:27:20 “Keep it to yourself.
0:27:24 “Don’t be immoderate in your speech to your partner.
0:27:26 “Be an adult.
0:27:30 “Unbridled self-expression is no favor to anybody.
0:27:31 “Knock it off.”
0:27:36 The fourth losing strategy is another one of my favorites,
0:27:41 retaliation, revenge, getting even.
0:27:44 I don’t get hurt, I get even.
0:27:48 I often call one of my great mentors, P.M. L.L.D.,
0:27:51 our lady of a thousand homilies,
0:27:53 because she had a terrific repertoire
0:27:57 of wonderful, pithy phrases and saying.
0:27:59 And one of my favorites is what she called
0:28:03 offending from the victim position, OFF,
0:28:06 offending from the victim position.
0:28:08 It’s about retaliation.
0:28:11 It’s about self-righteous indignation.
0:28:14 It’s about saying, “Well, you hurt me,
0:28:17 “so I get to hurt you at least as much if not more,
0:28:20 “and I have no shame or compunction about doing that
0:28:21 “because I’m your victim.”
0:28:26 Let me tell you, I believe offending from the victim
0:28:29 accounts for 90% of the world’s violence.
0:28:34 That and the other 10% is just a raw grab for resources.
0:28:39 Offending from the victim position is the cycle of violence.
0:28:41 You killed my brother, I’ll burn down your village.
0:28:44 You burn down my village, I’ll rape your grandmother.
0:28:48 You rape my grandmother, and on and on it goes.
0:28:51 Offending from the victim position puts you
0:28:56 in the crazy position of being, in fact,
0:28:59 a perpetrator and offender,
0:29:01 while featuring yourself as a victim.
0:29:04 This is nuts.
0:29:07 Here’s what I have to tell you.
0:29:12 Every offender thinks that he’s a victim.
0:29:17 Every perpetrator thinks that she herself
0:29:20 has been perpetrated and moved into self-righteous
0:29:23 indignation and revenge.
0:29:29 It was my wife, Belinda, who gave me the best framework
0:29:33 for understanding retaliation and understanding it
0:29:35 with a more empathic response.
0:29:39 She said that retaliation was really
0:29:41 a perverse form of communication.
0:29:46 That the essence of the retaliatory agenda,
0:29:49 the punchline was when the other partner falls
0:29:53 on his or her knees and says, oh my God, I get it now.
0:29:55 I understand what I did to you
0:29:58 because I’m feeling the same thing now.
0:30:00 Please forgive me.
0:30:02 Forget it.
0:30:05 Punitiveness, punishing somebody,
0:30:08 will never bring them into increased accountability.
0:30:12 But you know, the more unaccountable somebody is,
0:30:15 the more vengeful we tend to get.
0:30:17 Even in our legal system,
0:30:19 if one person appears before the judge
0:30:22 and seems sincerely contrite
0:30:25 and another person acts like they don’t care a damn,
0:30:27 the person who acts like they don’t care a damn
0:30:29 will get a stiffer sentence.
0:30:33 We tend to be more punitive as people are less acknowledging.
0:30:35 We’ll get back to that later.
0:30:36 But you know what?
0:30:39 Retaliation is a loser.
0:30:41 You will never bring somebody
0:30:45 into increased accountability by hurting them.
0:30:47 I would like to get that message
0:30:49 across to our penal system.
0:30:53 There are two forms of retaliation,
0:30:56 direct retaliation, which is rage,
0:31:01 or indirect retaliation, which is passive aggression.
0:31:04 The covert expression of anger,
0:31:07 not by what you do, but by what you don’t do,
0:31:09 by what you withhold.
0:31:12 Here’s passive aggression.
0:31:13 One of my kids when they were little
0:31:15 told me this silly joke.
0:31:18 The masochist says to the sadist,
0:31:19 “Hit me, hit me.”
0:31:23 And the sadist smiles and says, “No.”
0:31:25 That’s passive aggression.
0:31:28 It’s the way I was when I was behind a wall
0:31:30 after Belinda and I would have a big fight.
0:31:32 And she would say, “Isn’t it great
0:31:34 to be close to each other again?”
0:31:36 And I would go, “Sure.”
0:31:39 That’s passive aggression.
0:31:41 It’s retaliation.
0:31:44 And whether your retaliation is direct,
0:31:47 yelling, screaming, throwing things,
0:31:50 hurting your partner the way you think they hurt you,
0:31:52 or whether it’s indirect
0:31:56 through a kind of a tight-assed non-giving,
0:31:59 retaliation never works.
0:32:01 It will not get you what you want.
0:32:04 Your partner will not move into accountability.
0:32:08 And it is a classic losing strategy
0:32:11 that does enormous damage in your relationship.
0:32:16 The final losing strategy is withdrawal.
0:32:18 And I make a distinction between
0:32:20 passive aggressive retaliation,
0:32:22 which may look like withdrawal,
0:32:25 but it’s really screw you,
0:32:27 versus actual withdrawal,
0:32:29 where you leave the field.
0:32:31 It’s refusing to engage.
0:32:34 You can refuse to engage about an issue.
0:32:36 We’re not gonna talk about little Timmy,
0:32:39 or we’re not gonna talk about sex.
0:32:40 It can be an opting out
0:32:43 of a particular aspect of your relationship,
0:32:47 like physical affection or erotic joy.
0:32:50 It can be checking out of the relationship entirely.
0:32:55 People will move into withdrawal.
0:32:57 They will give up on an issue
0:33:00 or on a particular aspect of the relationship,
0:33:03 and think that they’re moving into acceptance.
0:33:05 Well, I’m just accepting
0:33:08 that we can’t talk about our parenting,
0:33:10 and I’ve made my peace with that.
0:33:11 No, you haven’t.
0:33:13 You’re lying to yourself.
0:33:16 The trick is, are you resentful?
0:33:20 If you’re resentful, you are not truly into acceptance.
0:33:23 If there’s a shred of resentment,
0:33:26 move back into engagement and duke it out.
0:33:27 Fight the good fight.
0:33:30 Withdrawal is not acceptance.
0:33:33 Also, withdrawal is different
0:33:35 from taking healthy space,
0:33:38 from responsible distance taking.
0:33:42 Withdrawal is unilateral and it’s a rupture.
0:33:46 Here’s a skill that I can teach you.
0:33:48 When I work with couples,
0:33:52 I make a distinction between provocative distance taking,
0:33:55 withdrawal, and responsible distance taking.
0:33:59 Withdrawal or provocative distance taking is just,
0:34:00 I’m taking it.
0:34:01 I’m out of here.
0:34:03 No, I’m not gonna do it.
0:34:05 This conversation’s over.
0:34:07 That’s withdrawal.
0:34:10 Responsible distance taking has two parts to it.
0:34:12 I’m taking distance.
0:34:15 Here’s for how long.
0:34:17 Here’s when I come back.
0:34:20 And here’s why I’m doing it.
0:34:23 There’s an explanation, and there’s a promise of return.
0:34:29 This does a lot to quell your partner’s anxieties.
0:34:31 It is not a rupture.
0:34:33 It is a break.
0:34:35 But you have to do it responsibly.
0:34:37 Take care of your partner.
0:34:39 Just don’t be unilateral.
0:34:42 Be accountable in your distance taking.
0:34:44 I’m taking distance.
0:34:46 Here’s why I’m taking distance.
0:34:48 And here’s when I’m coming back.
0:34:53 Being right, controlling your partner,
0:34:58 unbridled self-expression, retaliation, and withdrawal.
0:35:02 None of these, and no combination,
0:35:04 will ever get you more of what you want
0:35:06 in your relationship.
0:35:07 You know why?
0:35:09 You’re not trying.
0:35:10 I have a saying, for example.
0:35:12 You can be right or you can be married.
0:35:14 What’s more important to you?
0:35:16 You ask that adaptive child part of you,
0:35:17 what’s more important?
0:35:19 Buddy, it’s right down the line.
0:35:22 Who cares about the relationship?
0:35:24 Once your adaptive child takes over,
0:35:27 losing strategies reign.
0:35:29 And you have lost your perspective.
0:35:31 You’ve lost your compass.
0:35:34 You have not kept your eyes on the prize,
0:35:37 which is remembering that the person you’re speaking to
0:35:38 is someone you love.
0:35:40 And the reason why you’re speaking
0:35:42 is to make things better.
0:35:46 Instead, you’re speaking to be right,
0:35:51 or to control, or to vent, or to hurt, or to withdraw.
0:35:57 Okay, it’s time to out yourself once again.
0:36:01 You know, a lot of what we’ve been doing so far,
0:36:04 I call shaking hands with your adaptive child.
0:36:08 It’s about getting to know that adaptive child part of you
0:36:12 that can run amok in your relationships.
0:36:14 It’s really important to understand where you are,
0:36:17 and what that child part of you is all about,
0:36:20 in order for you to encircle that child,
0:36:22 and help manage them.
0:36:26 So let’s take a look at what we call your LSP,
0:36:29 your losing strategy profile.
0:36:32 Take a moment and think, or if you’re home,
0:36:37 whip out a piece of paper, and a pen, and write this down.
0:36:42 What are my most usual losing strategies?
0:36:45 Could be one, I usually withdraw.
0:36:47 Could be a combination.
0:36:51 I move into being right in unbridled self-expression,
0:36:55 or I move into being right in controlling my partner.
0:36:59 It could be a two-step, but don’t get too complicated.
0:37:03 Most two-steps are, I’m right, or controlling,
0:37:07 or vending, or retaliating, that’s the first step,
0:37:09 and when that doesn’t work, I withdraw.
0:37:13 That’s a usual two-step pattern.
0:37:15 What is your losing strategy profile?
0:37:18 What is the one or combination of losing strategies
0:37:22 you will fall prey to when the heat of the moment
0:37:25 has knocked you out of your functional adult?
0:37:27 Take a moment and note that.
0:37:42 Now, you know, as acute as you might be
0:37:47 in understanding your own human limitations,
0:37:52 we tend to be even more perspicacious about our partners.
0:37:54 So, sometimes when I’m doing these exercises,
0:37:56 I actually ask people to diagnose their partner
0:37:58 before they diagnose themselves,
0:38:00 because partners are easier to do.
0:38:02 But you just did the heroic job
0:38:05 of looking at yourself squarely in the mirror
0:38:08 and looking at your usual losing strategy.
0:38:12 Now, it’s time for those of you who are in a current relationship
0:38:15 to look at your partner’s losing strategy.
0:38:17 What does he or she do when they lose it
0:38:19 in the heat of the moment?
0:38:25 Being right, control, ventilation, retaliation, or withdrawal.
0:38:39 Now, the simple task is to put these two together.
0:38:40 Remember the vicious circle?
0:38:44 Remember that the more the more that dance?
0:38:46 Well, here’s the simplest way of unearthing
0:38:49 the more the more between you and your partner.
0:38:53 The more I fill in the blank of your losing strategy,
0:38:56 the more he or she fill in the blank
0:38:58 of his or her losing strategy.
0:39:02 The more I am about being right,
0:39:04 the more my partner ventilates.
0:39:06 And the more my partner ventilates,
0:39:08 the more I’m about being right.
0:39:10 The more I try to control my partner,
0:39:12 the more my partner withdraws.
0:39:13 And the more they withdraw,
0:39:16 the more I try to control them.
0:39:18 The simplest way of unearthing the dynamic
0:39:22 between you and your partner is just put
0:39:25 your losing strategy profile up against theirs.
0:39:28 And you will get the dynamic, the dance,
0:39:30 the burying, the two of you.
0:39:35 Come out of these losing strategies.
0:39:37 Come out of the adaptive child
0:39:42 and move into your functional adult.
0:39:44 Move into the circle of health.
0:39:47 – Hey guys, this is Tim again,
0:39:49 just one more thing before you take off.
0:39:52 And that is Five Bullet Friday.
0:39:54 Would you enjoy getting a short email from me every Friday
0:39:57 that provides a little fun before the weekend?
0:39:59 Between one and a half and two million people subscribe
0:40:02 to my free newsletter, my super short newsletter
0:40:04 called Five Bullet Friday.
0:40:06 Easy to sign up, easy to cancel.
0:40:10 It is basically a half page that I send out every Friday
0:40:12 to share the coolest things I’ve found or discovered
0:40:14 or have started exploring over that week.
0:40:16 It’s kind of like my diary of cool things.
0:40:18 It often includes articles I’m reading,
0:40:22 books I’m reading, albums perhaps, gadgets, gizmos,
0:40:24 all sorts of tech tricks and so on.
0:40:26 They get sent to me by my friends,
0:40:28 including a lot of podcast guests.
0:40:32 And these strange esoteric things end up in my field
0:40:36 and then I test them and then I share them with you.
0:40:39 So if that sounds fun, again, it’s very short,
0:40:41 a little tiny bite of goodness before you head off
0:40:43 for the weekend, something to think about.
0:40:45 If you’d like to try it out,
0:40:47 just go to tim.blog/friday, type that into your browser,
0:40:51 tim.blog/friday, drop in your email
0:40:53 and you’ll get the very next one.
0:40:54 Thanks for listening.
0:40:57 (upbeat music)
0:41:07 [BLANK_AUDIO]