AI transcript
0:00:04 Hello, boys and girls, ladies and germs. This is Tim Ferriss, and welcome to another episode
0:00:09 of The Tim Ferriss Show, where it is my job, each interview, to deconstruct world-class
0:00:15 performers, to tease out the habits, routines, influences, and resources that you can apply
0:00:19 to your own lives from people from every discipline imaginable, ranging from entertainment
0:00:25 to the military to technology and beyond. Today, my guest is Ev Williams, and what a
0:00:30 story he has. Ev is the co-founder and chairman of Mosey, a new social network that helps
0:00:36 you connect in person with the people you care about most. Over the past 25 years, Ev has
0:00:41 co-founded several companies that have helped shape the modern internet, including Blogger,
0:00:46 Medium, and Twitter. Ev is also the co-founder of Obvious Ventures, an investment firm that
0:00:51 focuses on world-positive companies addressing major systemic problems. Ev grew up on a farm
0:00:57 in Clarks, Nebraska, has two sons, and lives mostly in the Bay Area. This particular episode,
0:01:05 this conversation was recorded live in Austin, Texas, at the Dignation relaunch. That’s Dignation.show
0:01:11 for the show itself, and that is where Dign.com was relaunched. It was recently acquired by its
0:01:17 original founder, my good friend Kevin Rose, and Reddit co-founder Alexis Ohanian, formerly
0:01:22 arch-nemeses, but they have joined forces and invited me along for all the fun and surprises
0:01:28 as they celebrated the relaunch. Go to Dign.com and sign up to get early access when the invites
0:01:36 go out. One more time, Dign.com, that’s D-I-G-G.com. You can find Mosey, that is Ev’s newest creation,
0:01:42 at Mosey.app. That’s available on iOS right now. You can find Obvious Ventures at Obvious.com,
0:01:49 and you can find him on Twitter. That is also known as X, at Ev, at E-V. We’re going to get
0:01:54 right into this wide-ranging conversation with just a few words first from the people who make
0:02:00 this podcast possible. I am always on the hunt for protein sources that don’t require sacrifices
0:02:06 in taste or nutrition. I don’t want to eat sawdust. I also don’t want a candy bar that’s disguised as a
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0:02:51 grab a few of those from running out the door if I think I might end up in a situation where I can’t
0:02:56 get sufficient protein. And why is that important? Well, adequate protein intake is critical for building
0:03:03 and preserving muscle mass, especially as we age. And one of the biggest things that you want to pay
0:03:07 attention to is counteracting sarcopenia, age-related muscle loss. And for that, you need
0:03:13 enough protein. When in doubt, up your protein. Protein is also the most satiating macronutrient.
0:03:18 What does that mean? It means that protein out of carbohydrates, fat, and protein inhibits your
0:03:23 appetite while also feeding all the things you want to feed, which helps you consume fewer calories
0:03:27 throughout the day. You’re less inclined to eat garbage. All of that contributes to fat loss and
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0:04:01 I want to give my pooch, Molly, the best of everything. She is my companion. She is my guardian.
0:04:07 She’s been with me for almost 10 years now, 24-7. I want to give her the absolute best,
0:04:12 and that includes food, especially food. It is the bedrock of her health. That’s why I give her
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0:05:16 Optimal minimal. At this altitude, I can run flat out for a half mile before my hands start
0:05:21 shaking. Can I ask you a personal question? Now would it seem an appropriate time? What
0:05:25 if I did the opposite? I’m a cybernetic organism living tissue over a metal endoskeleton.
0:05:44 Hello, hello. Good Lord. Wow. I can’t see anything because there’s so many lights, but thank you for coming.
0:05:55 I’m Kevin Rose. Tonight is going to be a really fun night. A lot of surprises, a lot of fun. In 2004,
0:06:02 when I was first out here, I would pull up my cell phone and I would text a number, which was…
0:06:04 What number was it?
0:06:11 4444, which was for Twitter. And you would say, I’m going to be at this bar or this is what I’m eating,
0:06:16 which is basically what you would say back then. And people would show up and it was awesome.
0:06:24 So it is really cool to have this kind of throwback, this time, this new reboot in many ways.
0:06:34 And to kick it off, I have an old, old wooden friend, as an Anchorman reference, Tim Ferriss, who is here.
0:06:42 We were reminiscing on the old times. He had more hair back then. I had less gray hair.
0:06:49 And for Ev, we were texting things, not using apps. So Ev Williams, co-founder of Twitter and Tim Ferriss.
0:06:55 Hey, everybody. Hey, guys. Good evening.
0:07:01 Welcome to Austin. Beautiful, beautiful, warm Austin.
0:07:05 You guys ready for a fun night? I have my party pants on.
0:07:13 And it’s nostalgic to be here because the last time I was in this venue was probably 2007,
0:07:17 I think, for a Dignation event. May have been a little bit earlier.
0:07:20 Oh, Stubbs. Excuse me, Mohawk.
0:07:24 That’s my early-onset dementia kicking in yet again.
0:07:26 So we’re going to pretend that didn’t happen.
0:07:34 And we’re going to move on to discussing cutting-edge technology with Ev right here.
0:07:37 And I know the question you all want to ask, which is,
0:07:41 what is the past, present, and future of VHS?
0:07:46 And we’re going to begin with your history with VHS.
0:07:48 Great. Thanks, Tim.
0:07:49 Hey, everybody.
0:07:52 I don’t get asked about VHS enough these days.
0:07:53 In fact, I don’t even know what it stands for.
0:07:56 I think what Tim is referring to is my very first internet product.
0:07:57 That’s right.
0:08:04 Which was a video cassette that was about how to use the internet.
0:08:06 You watched it on your TV.
0:08:11 The year was 1994, folks.
0:08:15 This is, it wasn’t that odd for the time,
0:08:18 but how are you going to learn about computers on the computer when you don’t have the internet?
0:08:23 So I made a tape in my basement with my college buddies,
0:08:27 and that was my very first internet product.
0:08:34 It was two hours, basically, of me explaining how to FTP by terminal.
0:08:36 I think I talked about the web for about three minutes.
0:08:38 You know, there’s this new thing called the web.
0:08:43 So we’re talking Usenet, Gopher, that type of stuff.
0:08:45 Did it sell well?
0:08:45 Was it a bestseller?
0:08:54 I think we broke even on a very low budget production.
0:08:57 So you’re known for a lot of different things.
0:08:59 Blogger, Twitter, you now have Mosey.
0:09:02 And I wanted to ask you, because here we are in person.
0:09:04 How nice is that?
0:09:04 Remember COVID?
0:09:08 It’s easy to take things like this for granted.
0:09:11 And I wanted to talk about relationships,
0:09:21 I imagine how you think about relationships, cultivating relationships, using technology to enhance relationships may have changed over time.
0:09:25 Could you just walk us through, perhaps, that trajectory?
0:09:32 Yeah, we were talking earlier today, actually, about social media and social, how the word social has changed.
0:09:38 Remember when social used to mean, like, getting together in real life, getting to know people?
0:09:42 And now the social is just this catch-all word that kind of just means the internet.
0:09:50 That was, I think, an evolution that started in maybe Facebook days.
0:09:58 Facebook was actually, in the news feed, was, I think, a social media new format, really, because it was media from people you knew.
0:10:00 We borrowed from some of that for Twitter.
0:10:02 We also borrowed from blogs for Twitter.
0:10:05 But Twitter, we never saw as necessarily social.
0:10:08 I wasn’t very focused on social, personally.
0:10:15 I think that’s the somewhat ironic thing is that I come from a very small town in Nebraska, on the farm, didn’t know a lot of people.
0:10:19 And maybe subconsciously, I liked the internet because I actually wanted to make friends.
0:10:22 But I didn’t know that at the time.
0:10:28 So, in all these technologies, I was really focused on information and ideas until fairly recently.
0:10:31 This current stage of life, I don’t want to say later stage of life.
0:10:34 The golden years.
0:10:35 That was golden years.
0:10:39 I started thinking a lot more about relationships.
0:10:49 And I personally had under-invested in relationships and over-invested, I think, in just, like, maybe business.
0:10:49 Yeah.
0:10:51 So, yeah, I’ve been thinking about that a lot lately.
0:10:59 You seem to me to be a thoughtful, you don’t seem, you are a very thoughtful, I want to say systematic guy.
0:11:06 How have you translated thinking about maybe countering the trend of under-investing in relationships?
0:11:07 Have you done anything?
0:11:08 I started a company.
0:11:13 Let’s hear about it, because I’m sure there are people here who have it.
0:11:21 I started a company called Mosey within the last year, and Mosey is an app for finding out where your friends are and getting together.
0:11:28 We like to say it’s actually a social app, because it’s really about getting together with friends by knowing where they are.
0:11:29 So, I’m in Austin.
0:11:31 Who do I know in Austin?
0:11:32 I know a bunch of people in Austin.
0:11:37 I may have forgotten who I know in Austin, but Mosey tells me who’s in Austin, tells me what they’re doing, that type of thing.
0:11:42 The way I look back on some of the early ideas about social and the internet is, of course, we connected with people.
0:11:44 We’ve all made friends through the internet.
0:11:47 We’ve built meaning relationships or maintained relationships.
0:11:51 We’re wired to be deeply social, but that wiring was way before screens.
0:11:55 And that wiring to be social didn’t happen in public.
0:12:02 And so, Mosey is a very simple idea where we said, well, what would an actual social network look like?
0:12:04 And so, that’s what we’re building.
0:12:20 So, I want to edge into a question about sort of initial product design and what your expectations might be just by rewinding the clock a little bit and talking about Odeo a little bit.
0:12:27 So, I’ve read about board meetings, and you’ll have to tell a bit of the context related to Odeo, in which you’re presenting usage metrics at the time.
0:12:30 It wasn’t growing, but it wasn’t dead.
0:12:32 Maybe it was semi-growing.
0:12:47 And as a lot of people here read in the media, as they used to see on magazine covers, the stories of perseverance against all odds, it failed 100 times, but then we succeeded the 101st time, get a lot of airplay.
0:12:56 But I think that something that doesn’t get as much attention is strategic stopping or strategic quitting.
0:13:00 Sometimes it doesn’t make sense to keep beating your head against a wall.
0:13:04 So, could you take us back to Odeo and walk us through that experience?
0:13:13 Yeah, so Odeo was a podcasting company that I co-founded in 2005, which, if you recall, was pre-iPhone.
0:13:17 So, and not to correct Kevin, but Twitter was 2007 when it was here.
0:13:19 So, this was before Twitter.
0:13:22 And podcasting seemed cool.
0:13:24 I don’t know if you’ve heard about it, Tim.
0:13:30 But we’re like, let’s build a platform for podcasts.
0:13:34 And we worked on it for maybe six months.
0:13:35 We raised some money.
0:13:44 Because I had previously sold the company to Google, I was fortunate enough to get some VC funding before we even had a product, which turns out isn’t always fortunate.
0:13:47 So, we had high expectations from kind of get-go.
0:13:49 This is in 2005.
0:13:57 Apple released podcasts in iTunes that summer in 2005, which completely blew us away.
0:13:58 It was totally unexpected.
0:14:04 This is very, very early for podcasts, even though the name comes from the iPod.
0:14:09 And they basically obsoleted what we had been doing for six to nine months overnight.
0:14:14 Then we, you know, we were like, oh, maybe we create a podcast creation tool.
0:14:16 You know, we were trying to pivot and whatnot.
0:14:21 And I think I just came to the conclusion at some point.
0:14:27 The way Biz Stone tells the story is that I wrote this big strategic doc about how to succeed in the podcasting business.
0:14:32 And it was very convincing about the pivot we could do and to do.
0:14:34 And I was like, I don’t want to do this.
0:14:39 And so, I went to investors and said, I don’t think this company is on a great trajectory.
0:14:40 Maybe we should just stop.
0:14:41 But that was unusual.
0:14:45 This is kind of pivoting now, of course, is taken for granted.
0:14:47 That your idea isn’t right the first time out.
0:14:49 That was less assumed back then.
0:14:51 So, I was embarrassed.
0:14:53 I was like, I said I was going to start a podcasting company.
0:14:54 And I raised this money.
0:14:56 I have these employees.
0:14:56 I have these investors.
0:14:59 But I don’t believe in it.
0:15:00 I don’t believe in this vision anymore.
0:15:03 Even though it wasn’t dead, as you said.
0:15:10 Was the reason you didn’t believe in it based on the emergence of iTunes and what that represented?
0:15:11 Or was there more to it?
0:15:13 I wasn’t that into it personally.
0:15:15 I wasn’t a podcaster.
0:15:17 And I think that was another principle that I’ve learned over and over.
0:15:21 is I think some people can build products for other people.
0:15:23 And thank goodness they do.
0:15:25 But I just build products for myself.
0:15:28 And I was like, I don’t know.
0:15:30 I don’t know what the product is here.
0:15:31 We need to build that I want.
0:15:42 But I think to your question about strategic quitting, I think a ton of companies and a ton of people just get in these life situations where they just keep going.
0:15:43 And that’s certainly what I was taught.
0:15:50 In fact, Blogger, which is the company I sold to Google, I completely ran out of money after the dot-com bust.
0:15:56 I had to lay off all my employees, was barely able to pay my rent, and kept working on it, kept working on it, kept working on it.
0:15:59 Eventually sold it to Google very happily.
0:16:04 And to me, I was like, yes, that is the triumph of perseverance, and that’s why you should stick to things.
0:16:07 And then Odeo, thankfully, we didn’t.
0:16:10 We did create another company out of that.
0:16:14 But I think this idea of it’s okay to quit is underappreciated.
0:16:17 And the main reason, everyone knows about sunk cost fallacy.
0:16:21 There’s a great book, by the way, by Andy Duke called Quit, which I highly recommend.
0:16:28 And it actually was part of the reason a couple years ago I stepped down from Medium, which is my last company I was running for a long time.
0:16:30 And I quit my job.
0:16:31 The company is still going.
0:16:36 But I was like, I realized that I was just working as, like, it was ego.
0:16:37 It was pride.
0:16:39 It was expectations of other people.
0:16:49 And the book is really great, if you don’t know it, because it just points out all the reasons beyond sunk cost fallacy that people do things way longer than it makes sense to do them.
0:16:52 And the biggest thing is they underestimate opportunity costs.
0:16:58 If you’re working on one thing, and there’s identity and ego and all those other things, but it’s like you don’t know what else there is.
0:17:04 Until you clear that your attention away from the thing that you’ve been struggling with.
0:17:11 And so I think if you’re in a situation where it feels like a slog, quitting is probably a good idea.
0:17:18 So Andy Duke, for people who might not recognize the name, well-known poker player, also wrote Thinking in Bets, I believe.
0:17:31 So let me ask you then, if you look back now, hindsight 2020, at Ev, who persevered with Blogger and then ended up selling it to Google at a very good time to get Google equity.
0:17:41 Did he just get lucky, did he just get lucky in that perseverance, or was there some type of scent trail that in retrospect you can say, well, it was actually the right thing to do at that time?
0:17:49 I’ve struggled with this because I don’t have a clean way to understand it, but I think one big difference is I believed in the vision of Blogger the whole time.
0:17:54 And that was where Odio was like, I’m keep coming to work and make it succeed.
0:18:01 It was also, I was lucky because Blogger being my first real company, and I was a little bit younger.
0:18:07 I believed in the vision, but I also just was petrified of failing.
0:18:09 I just couldn’t accept that possibility for myself.
0:18:11 I also didn’t have a lot of other prospects.
0:18:13 I’d never really had a job.
0:18:14 I didn’t have a degree.
0:18:20 The dot-com boom was like, well, I don’t know what the hell else I’m going to do if I don’t make this succeed.
0:18:22 So I’m going to stick with it.
0:18:23 But it didn’t really make sense.
0:18:25 So that speaks to your prior comment about the opportunity cost.
0:18:26 Yeah.
0:18:26 Right?
0:18:27 Exactly.
0:18:28 Actually, good point.
0:18:28 Yeah.
0:18:29 Yeah.
0:18:32 Like your opportunity cost was not as high, maybe, at that point.
0:18:33 Fair.
0:18:34 Yeah.
0:18:35 By pursuing something else.
0:18:35 Yeah.
0:18:37 So you mentioned something came out of Odeo.
0:18:38 What came out of Odeo?
0:18:40 A company called Twitter.
0:18:42 I still call it that.
0:18:43 I don’t know about you guys.
0:18:48 How did that happen?
0:18:55 Well, the investors, thankfully, my board, I went to board and said, this is my honest assessment of Odeo.
0:19:01 And they, as good investors do, said, well, we didn’t believe in investing in podcasting.
0:19:02 We invest in you.
0:19:03 You have a great team.
0:19:05 You got any other ideas?
0:19:10 And I thought, hmm, I must have other ideas.
0:19:14 So I always prided myself on having ideas.
0:19:16 But I went back to the team and said, I don’t have any ideas.
0:19:17 You guys got any ideas?
0:19:23 And we ended up doing a hackathon where we basically, for a couple weeks.
0:19:25 So an internal hackathon.
0:19:26 Internal hackathon.
0:19:27 Where we just said, hey, let’s all break into teams.
0:19:29 How many employees did you have at the time?
0:19:32 I think it was around 12, 12, 14, something like that.
0:19:34 People worked on a bunch of stuff.
0:19:41 A lot of it was related because we were doing audio and, you know, recording in the browser with flash and stuff like that.
0:19:47 Again, pre-smartphone, but we were dabbling with text messaging.
0:19:55 And there’s a couple of the engineers that were familiar with how to send text messages on mass, which was little known at that time.
0:19:58 There was no real APIs for that.
0:20:01 And so people were trying a lot of things along those lines.
0:20:04 Maybe we send an audio voice memo.
0:20:05 Maybe we record something in the browser.
0:20:08 Little kind of social things.
0:20:14 Then one of the ideas was to, the way I remember, first it was record a message actually via your phone.
0:20:16 And then it got broadcast text to people.
0:20:17 And then they could listen to it.
0:20:22 And then that quickly evolved to, what if we got rid of the audio?
0:20:24 Maybe it was just text broadcast.
0:20:31 And then, you know, having come from the blogging world, that we were familiar with RSS and subscribing, which turned into following.
0:20:34 And, yeah, kind of evolved from there.
0:20:38 That was, to mention names, that was, of course, BizStone and Jack Dorsey’s project.
0:20:44 And it also was informed by Jack’s previous work on careers and status systems.
0:20:50 And at what point did you, or anyone else for that matter, realize that there was a there there?
0:20:54 Like, oh, there might be something very interesting with this.
0:20:56 We were pretty intrigued right away.
0:21:01 I mean, we certainly didn’t know the extent of it by any means.
0:21:05 But it felt new and interesting.
0:21:07 We kept evolving it.
0:21:08 It definitely wasn’t right.
0:21:11 I mean, I think no ideas come out fully baked.
0:21:13 And so there was a lot we had to get right.
0:21:15 Like, what is the graph?
0:21:22 The very first version actually was highly informed by status messages, which were a thing in Facebook.
0:21:26 But this is pre-Facebook being available to outside of colleges.
0:21:27 And we were too old to be on Facebook.
0:21:30 So we didn’t even know about status messages on Facebook.
0:21:31 But it was kind of like that.
0:21:33 It was kind of like AIM messages.
0:21:36 And the very first version, there wasn’t a whole feed.
0:21:39 It was just the latest person who had updated their status was on top.
0:21:41 And it went out via text message.
0:21:44 And so, but we’re like, hmm, interesting.
0:21:48 And we felt it was interesting when we had maybe 10 people on it.
0:21:49 10 people worked at the company.
0:21:52 And then we started getting our partners on it.
0:21:53 And we were intrigued.
0:21:55 But so this is 2006.
0:22:00 And it really wasn’t growing for months and months.
0:22:06 And really, we hit an inflection point here in Austin in 2007.
0:22:13 So I have to just mention that that particular southbound is very nostalgic for me.
0:22:18 Because I launched the 4-Hour Workweek with an overflow presentation in 2007.
0:22:23 After haranguing the shit out of Hugh Forrest.
0:22:26 Thank you for letting me fill in for a cancellation.
0:22:28 And basically next to a cafeteria.
0:22:30 My laptop failed.
0:22:33 So I ended up having to improv the thing without my slides.
0:22:42 And I remember the big screen TV in the ground level of the conference center showing tweets.
0:22:42 Yeah.
0:22:43 Going through.
0:22:44 And I was like, huh, look at that.
0:22:45 Yeah.
0:22:48 That was the idea we had.
0:22:51 It was starting to take off amongst the people we knew.
0:22:59 And South by it was always the conference where, like, the indie, cool tech people came.
0:23:00 And these were our people.
0:23:04 And they were the ones, our early adopters of Twitter, because they came from the blogging world.
0:23:06 And they were friends.
0:23:10 And so we sensed that we could get critical mass here.
0:23:14 So we talked to Hugh and whoever from his team.
0:23:17 And, of course, they were like, well, you could have a trade show floor.
0:23:18 And I’m like, no, no, no.
0:23:19 No one goes to a trade show.
0:23:25 Can we buy a screen and put it in the hall where everybody’s hanging out?
0:23:27 And that was the move.
0:23:28 And people saw that.
0:23:29 And I’m like, oh.
0:23:30 That’s amazing.
0:23:32 I didn’t realize that back story.
0:23:34 It costs $11,000.
0:23:36 It’s a great investment.
0:23:38 $11,000.
0:23:44 A little more expensive these days, I think, since you’re competing against AT&T and God knows who else.
0:23:55 But this ties into Mosey in part because I’m wondering how much your expectation is that you will design and deliver to spec,
0:24:00 maybe like an Uber, where the business model has changed relatively little over time, right?
0:24:00 It’s been very reliable.
0:24:03 It’s kind of stayed very similar.
0:24:06 With, obviously, bells and whistles and changes along the way.
0:24:13 Or is your expectation, maybe along the lines of a Twitter or Odeo, in some sense, morphing into a Twitter,
0:24:17 that Mosey is just a starting point?
0:24:22 And your expectation is it’s probably going to end up being something very, very different a year or two.
0:24:24 I’m sure it’ll end up in something very, very different.
0:24:26 It’s early for Mosey.
0:24:31 The way we think about it, in our wildest dreams, it is a ubiquitous social network.
0:24:38 And the way Facebook was at one time, but actually designed for enhancing people’s social lives and relationships.
0:24:40 Which means it’s not a media platform.
0:24:41 It’s not an advertising platform.
0:24:43 It’s not a performative platform.
0:24:45 It’s not a status-building platform.
0:24:50 It’s really about sharing information that’s important to you with people you care about and enabling.
0:24:55 It won’t all be about IRL, but that’s where folks end right now.
0:24:57 But it’s early.
0:24:58 We haven’t figured it out yet.
0:25:02 And I think that’s part of the fun, is figuring out where it goes.
0:25:05 So you impressed me at a whole lot of levels.
0:25:08 I’ve always found you to be a very deep thinker.
0:25:09 You think a lot.
0:25:14 And you choose your words carefully and ask a lot of good questions.
0:25:19 And I’m always curious about the inputs, what you feed yourself in terms of information.
0:25:22 And I’ve read that you’re fond of a few books.
0:25:31 This may have changed because this is from 2016, but Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance, Robert Persig, The Effective Executive by Peter Drucker.
0:25:40 I don’t know if you would still stand by those, but I’m curious, if so, why those books and if there are any others that you would add to that list?
0:25:42 Where’d you get that list?
0:25:44 That is New York Times.
0:25:47 EvWilliamsFavoriteBooks.html.
0:25:53 Yeah, I probably wouldn’t pick those now.
0:25:54 It’s been a while.
0:25:58 I’m not an executive anymore, so I mean, that’s not as useful.
0:26:01 Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance is great.
0:26:08 But I will mention one book very related to the conversation, which is, have you read Why Greatness Cannot Be Planned?
0:26:08 No.
0:26:09 Great title, though.
0:26:11 Why Greatness Cannot Be Planned.
0:26:13 I recommend this to 100 people.
0:26:14 Love this book.
0:26:18 The subtitle is The Myth of the Objective.
0:26:25 And the premise is by a guy named Ken Stanley and another guy who were AI researchers.
0:26:30 And the way it starts out is they, this is early AI researchers.
0:26:32 Ken Wen worked at OpenAI later.
0:26:34 They were building bots.
0:26:40 And the example they talk about is trying to build a robot to go through a maze.
0:26:45 And how they, you know, tried to program all kinds of smart algorithms into it.
0:26:49 And then they found that the most effective strategy was just try something new.
0:27:05 And they go on from that and extrapolate this idea that if you are trying to do something that hasn’t been done before, you know, we’re taught from birth and from school and everywhere is like, set your goal, make a plan to get to the plan.
0:27:06 Persevere, go through that.
0:27:13 And the premise of the book is that works if it’s something that’s been done a lot and that’s formulaic.
0:27:28 You can set a goal to run a marathon and you can, you know, download a training regime and you can go run the marathon and probably because you can’t do that to invent the computer or Twitter or like create amazing art.
0:27:29 You can’t plot it.
0:27:37 And to the extent you try to plot it, you shoot yourself in the foot because you cut off the possibilities that lay before you.
0:27:42 And I read this book when I was running media in my last company.
0:27:52 It had a great effect on me because I felt this deep sense of relief because my entire business and startup career, I’ve been deeply driven to create things.
0:27:57 I saw like companies in particular products as a creative process.
0:28:00 You know, it’s like writing a book or painting a painting.
0:28:03 It’s like you have to figure it out as you go.
0:28:05 You don’t have it fully baked in your head from day one.
0:28:11 But what I’ve seen happen a million times and happened to me is you have this intuition.
0:28:13 You kind of know what it is.
0:28:14 You start to develop it.
0:28:16 You’re like, oh, it’s this, not that.
0:28:17 Let’s try this, not that.
0:28:22 And you feel your way into what’s the best first version of it.
0:28:34 If you’re lucky and good enough that that first version, you know, meets with some success in the world, then at least in the tech world, employees and investors and business people come in.
0:28:36 It’s like, OK, where are we going next?
0:28:36 What’s the plan?
0:28:37 What’s the roadmap?
0:28:40 You know, how are we going to make the numbers go up?
0:28:44 And it doesn’t work to very far.
0:28:46 It works like a little bit to get that next stage.
0:28:49 But it doesn’t work to really innovate.
0:28:49 It doesn’t work.
0:28:53 And so you have to be comfortable with the ambiguity of not knowing where you’re going to go.
0:28:59 And this book is good and it makes its points very short.
0:29:07 It also talks about evolution a lot and how, like, the most creative force in the world is clearly nature.
0:29:10 And, like, it has no plan.
0:29:11 It just tries shit.
0:29:12 Trial and error.
0:29:13 Yeah.
0:29:14 All right.
0:29:15 Taking notes.
0:29:17 That’s going to be one of my next reads.
0:29:24 Just a quick thanks to one of our sponsors and we’ll be right back to the show.
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0:30:49 You mentioned AI, and it is the topic du jour.
0:31:02 But, I can’t believe everything you read on the internet, but I believe that 25% of the latest Y Combinator class wrote 95% plus of their code using AI.
0:31:09 And I’m curious, you have kids, what would you suggest your kids study in school?
0:31:12 My kids are here, in fact.
0:31:14 Whatever they want.
0:31:19 I mean, it depends on what the goal is.
0:31:19 I mean, I think…
0:31:21 I can frame it a little more.
0:31:22 I can strain it.
0:31:24 I would say, if people are wondering here how to…
0:31:31 I don’t want to say AI-proof themselves, because good luck predicting where that’s going to go.
0:31:38 But, are there any fundamental skills or specific skills that you think will increase in value over time?
0:31:51 For instance, I don’t know if I had kids if I would suggest they take a legal path, necessarily, since I already use AI in 30 seconds to draft most of my legal documents before I send it to human eyes.
0:31:53 Do you have any thoughts?
0:32:00 I haven’t thought about this deeply, but what comes to mind is social, human things.
0:32:01 Two things.
0:32:08 One is, I do encourage them to read and write, still, because I think that’s how you figure things out.
0:32:15 That’s, like, the best way to think and have ideas and get clarity is to write.
0:32:18 And you can’t write if you don’t read.
0:32:29 So, even if the AI can write for you, that’s fine if it’s a paper or, you know, a report or some analysis where the product is very important.
0:32:31 Like, this is the information and text that I need.
0:32:35 But, it robs you of the process of thinking.
0:32:41 So, I think problem solving, creative ideation is useful no matter what you do, ever.
0:32:44 So, I think those core skills and then social skills.
0:32:52 I mean, one of the reasons I love the school they go to is actually they have a thing called SEL, which maybe you all had, but I sure as hell didn’t have in rural Nebraska in the 70s.
0:32:57 It’s social, emotional learning, and that’s just, like, how do you connect with people?
0:33:05 I mean, we know that’s critical to any job no matter what you’re doing, and I think that’s probably, well, hopefully not going to go away.
0:33:06 Who knows?
0:33:12 I think we’re in a lot of trouble if that gets removed from you in life.
0:33:17 So, let’s shift gears a bit, and I’ll just ask a question I like to ask.
0:33:18 If it goes nowhere, it goes nowhere.
0:33:23 All right, so, metaphorically speaking, the billboard question, right?
0:33:36 So, if you were going to put a message on a billboard, could say anything, could be an image, anything at all that you would want a lot of people to see and understand, what might you put on that?
0:33:38 I love this question.
0:33:40 I might overthink it.
0:33:44 And understand.
0:33:46 So, we can assume they’ll understand.
0:33:51 The and understand I threw on there with a little creative flourish, it may complicate your thinking.
0:33:52 I’m going to build on that.
0:34:06 In thinking about this, what comes to mind, first of all, is the category is something that will help people heal, you know, just be their whole and true selves.
0:34:09 Because I think that’s where all our problems come from, is the lack of that.
0:34:17 And as much as I care about climate, I think the key to solving climate is to heal ourselves, to heal culture, to heal the planet.
0:34:18 And so, I start with the self.
0:34:30 And then my mind goes to what’s a big fundamental truth that we want everyone, let’s pretend if they read it, they’ll actually get it and know it.
0:34:36 Then I think there’s a little bit of tension between like the most fundamental truths and how actionable they are.
0:34:42 So, if we said, we are all one, which I believe, it’s like, okay, we’re all one.
0:34:44 The universe is one big thing, we’re all connected.
0:34:46 What do I do with that?
0:34:51 I mean, maybe if you really ponder that and meditate on that a long time, it’ll actually, it will do you some good.
0:35:08 But then if you move toward the spectrum of usefulness, of what’s a fundamental truth that’s more useful, you might have like some Buddhist saying like all of our suffering comes from, you know, our thoughts or inability to accept reality, which is a little bit more useful.
0:35:12 But maybe for the masses, not, still not very actionable.
0:35:22 And then you could move to like, feel your feelings, which I think would do a tremendous amount of good if people adopt, oh, feel your feelings.
0:35:25 It’s a little bit easier to imagine that, like so much of our suffering.
0:35:29 And I say this as someone who told their first therapist, I don’t understand the point of feelings.
0:35:33 I was like, they are just a nuisance and get in the way.
0:35:39 So it took me a long time to appreciate that and the avoidance that so many of us go through.
0:35:48 And then one step further might be stop drinking alcohol for six months and see how you feel.
0:35:52 Not tonight, though.
0:35:53 It’s fine.
0:35:53 We’re in a bar.
0:35:53 Not tonight.
0:35:53 Nice.
0:35:54 Starting tomorrow.
0:35:55 Starting tomorrow.
0:35:55 Consider it.
0:36:01 So following up just on the feeling your feelings, you said for a long time, and you said this to your first therapist, right?
0:36:06 If they’re just a nuisance, I’d like to know how to rid myself of these irritations.
0:36:08 What changed?
0:36:11 How did you end up going on to team feelings?
0:36:14 So, I mean, it was a long, long process.
0:36:16 I mean, the therapy helped.
0:36:17 The psychedelics helped.
0:36:25 Meditation, growth, learning, reading books, having friends, stopping drinking, actually, just for six months.
0:36:29 And I’ve gone through a lot.
0:36:32 I’ve done a lot of work, particularly in the last couple of years.
0:36:34 That’s been just super, super important.
0:36:36 Yeah, just a note on alcohol.
0:36:37 Look, I’m going to have some drinks tonight.
0:36:38 I do enjoy drinking.
0:36:47 But just a PSA for people, because ketamine is in the air.
0:36:49 Ketamine is probably in a few people’s pockets here.
0:36:51 They’re both dissociative anesthetics.
0:36:57 So if you want to feel your feelings, it’s a good idea not to engage with those things excessively.
0:37:03 And if you have a history of alcohol overuse, I would also stay away from any at-home ketamine.
0:37:08 But in terms of books or types of therapy, did you find, if there are people in the audience who are like,
0:37:14 yeah, you know what, actually, that makes sense to me, but I’ve never been able to find a handhold to get started?
0:37:16 Is there any advice you might give?
0:37:22 Probably the best thing I’ve ever done in that realm is Hoffman.
0:37:24 Have you done Hoffman?
0:37:27 Hoffman, I haven’t done Hoffman, but quite a few of my friends have.
0:37:29 So there’s this thing called the Hoffman process.
0:37:33 It’s 20 years of therapy in a week in terms of the effect.
0:37:36 I mean, I got much more out of it than I ever got in therapy.
0:37:38 It’s a week-long retreat.
0:37:39 There’s a few different places.
0:37:41 The main one’s in Petaluma, California.
0:37:51 You hand over your phone, you go and do some exercises with 36 strangers and yourself for a week,
0:37:52 and you come out a new person.
0:38:00 So I’ve spoken, well, not directly, I’ve more listened, but had a conversation on this podcast
0:38:05 where the Hoffman process came up, and a lot of listeners have gone to the Hoffman process,
0:38:14 and I get letters literally every week from people who are thanking me for not really the proper credit
0:38:17 because there’s someone else who brought it up for the Hoffman process.
0:38:19 I’m very curious.
0:38:20 You mentioned the strangers.
0:38:28 Part of the reason I haven’t gone is I’m like, I don’t want to air all of my dirty laundry in front of 20 strangers.
0:38:29 I don’t know these people.
0:38:33 And I know you’re also, I think it’s fair to say, pretty introverted.
0:38:38 I would say I am, even though I’m on stage, like, safely speaking into the darkness.
0:38:44 Was that an issue at all for you, or how did you get past that?
0:38:49 It wasn’t easy, but it’s just in the context of it, it just feels very safe.
0:38:57 One of the fascinating things is, as strangers, you are not allowed to say your last name or what you do in the real world when you get there.
0:39:06 So you connect with people, and I realized, after a few days, I relied so much on people knowing who I was or what I did,
0:39:10 that it was this veil between me and other humans.
0:39:16 So you get to know people at such a deep level without really knowing any of the normal things,
0:39:19 that we would say, you meet someone here, what do you do, where do you live?
0:39:24 And that, it just feels incredibly safe.
0:39:30 But the process is, they’ve been doing it for 50-some years, it’s very evolved, it’s very well done.
0:39:32 You take any of it out of context, it sounds weird.
0:39:34 Like, I knew nothing going in.
0:39:39 And about five people brought it up to me in random conversations over a week, and were like,
0:39:42 okay, this is a message, I’m going to go sign up for this thing.
0:39:44 Show up, I had no idea.
0:39:47 And then you just dive in, and it’s incredible.
0:39:50 Yeah, from what I can tell, it’s somewhat like Fight Club.
0:39:53 It’s like, first rule of Fight Club is don’t talk about Fight Club.
0:39:56 You’re not going to find much detail on the Hoffman process.
0:40:02 This also ties into a question I was planning on asking anyway, which is, are there any habits
0:40:09 or beliefs that have really positively impacted your life in the last handful of years?
0:40:15 Could also be 10 years ago, but you’ve talked about doing a lot of work in the last handful of years.
0:40:21 Any new habits, beliefs, tools, anything come to mind that have been really helpful?
0:40:26 Yes, but I feel like they’re the ones that everybody knows.
0:40:30 Well, I mean, sometimes the fundamentals are worth a review.
0:40:33 I mean, it is exercise and meditation.
0:40:40 I dabbled in for a long time, and then I got much more serious a couple years ago about both,
0:40:44 and really, really dramatic life improvement.
0:40:46 Why did you get more serious about them?
0:40:49 You just wake up one day, and you’re like, today’s a new day?
0:40:52 Or was there a breaking point?
0:40:55 Early COVID, I was like, what the fuck am I doing?
0:41:02 I’m going to turn 50, and I need to work a hell of a lot harder to be in shape than I was.
0:41:03 So I just started doing it.
0:41:04 I was at home.
0:41:05 I had the time.
0:41:06 So I did that.
0:41:11 Although that’s increased, because you get the positive reward cycle, and it feels great.
0:41:16 And meditation, I’ve always found super valuable.
0:41:24 And I just last year, on January 2nd, 2024, I had meditated the day before.
0:41:28 I was like, I could meditate every single day this year.
0:41:34 And it was just that sort of psychological hook that you find motivating, even though it’s arbitrary.
0:41:37 And I was like, yes, I’m going to meditate every single day in 2024.
0:41:38 That’s a goal.
0:41:41 And I don’t normally set goals like that.
0:41:44 But I was like, okay, let’s see what happens.
0:41:48 And my teacher says, you can’t boil water if you keep turning off the flame.
0:41:54 And so the consistency of meditation, I underestimated what dramatic difference that makes,
0:41:57 and how fast you can drop in if you do it every single day.
0:42:01 What type of meditation did you decide on?
0:42:05 Just mindfulness, meditation, breath, and awareness.
0:42:07 Not TM, just…
0:42:10 Just like an open monitoring, feel what you feel, see what you see.
0:42:11 Yeah.
0:42:14 Are you noting things, or are you just observing?
0:42:15 Noting, sometimes noting.
0:42:18 And I know you like to know about products.
0:42:19 You know about this product.
0:42:21 But I was using The Way.
0:42:21 Yep.
0:42:22 You’ve probably talked about that before.
0:42:24 The Way is a meditation app.
0:42:26 I hadn’t used a meditation app for years.
0:42:32 The Way, I started using The Way, Kevin sent it to me, actually, around when it was still in beta.
0:42:35 And I started doing that around that time.
0:42:36 Yeah.
0:42:37 The Way is fantastic.
0:42:37 Yeah.
0:42:40 Henry Schuchman, just an incredible guy.
0:42:43 I mean, we’ll hope to meet him in person someday.
0:42:48 Do you have a favorite failure or any favorite failures that come to mind?
0:42:52 I mean, you’ve got a greatest hits list that’s pretty outstanding.
0:42:54 I’m just wondering…
0:42:55 I have a lot of failures.
0:43:03 And anything that has either taught you a lot or in some way set you up for successes later.
0:43:06 That’s two possible ways of approaching it.
0:43:13 We’re already talking about Odeo, which is kind of a failure that led to Twitter, so that’s obvious.
0:43:25 But a thing that took me a very long time to appreciate that felt like the biggest failure possible was getting fired from Twitter, which I did.
0:43:26 Yeah, I co-founded the company.
0:43:36 I was CEO for two years, and then I got fired to my great shock and dismay, and I was just devastated.
0:43:37 Absolutely.
0:43:44 Now I looked and I was like, wow, I’m probably way happier today than I would have been had I not.
0:43:46 But it took me a while.
0:43:48 It took me a long while to appreciate that.
0:43:52 What was the silver lining on that in retrospect?
0:43:58 It kind of goes back to all our unhappiness comes from thinking things shouldn’t be how they are.
0:44:09 And I was very upset because of the injustice of it and what I thought was just dumb.
0:44:19 Now, in retrospect, and even at the time, I knew I was in over my head to a certain extent, and Dick, who became the CEO, was much better at certain aspects of the job.
0:44:23 I wasn’t even that attached to being the CEO long term.
0:44:27 I was just like, maybe we should talk about it before you fire me.
0:44:32 I mean, that seemed rude, but I mean, it was my company.
0:44:38 But the silver lining was like, I didn’t have to do the job anymore.
0:44:39 That’s one.
0:44:43 I mean, I still owned a bunch of the company.
0:44:45 I didn’t have to do the job.
0:44:48 I mean, that’s like, objectively, it wasn’t that bad.
0:44:52 But as an identity and ego hit, it was tremendous.
0:44:58 I also, I thought the best thing for the company was for me to stay, and even not in CEO role.
0:45:02 And I tried to negotiate that, and that wasn’t accepted.
0:45:05 But it was more like, this is so wrong.
0:45:07 It was like, okay, what can I learn from this?
0:45:13 What is, once I was out of that, you know, some deep reflection happened.
0:45:17 And I think a long term path of personal growth.
0:45:24 Are there any people who come to mind who you’re tracking right now?
0:45:27 Or anyone you think people should pay more attention to?
0:45:34 Innovators, technologists, thinkers, alive or dead?
0:45:36 I’ll mention another book.
0:45:37 Perfect.
0:45:42 What I’ve been geeking out on recently is How the Universe Works.
0:45:45 Small side project.
0:45:45 You know.
0:45:52 Which I used to read a lot of physics books and quantum physics just for fun.
0:45:58 And it had been a while, so I started delving into that more recently.
0:46:01 Just set a bubble bath, light a candle, read some quantum physics.
0:46:06 There’s a book I’m reading right now called The One by Henry Posse.
0:46:07 I don’t know anything about him.
0:46:15 The One is about, it’s about how, it’s monism, the idea that the universe is just one thing.
0:46:20 And nature and us and this glass is all one thing.
0:46:21 And that the separation is an illusion.
0:46:26 How that fits with quantum physics and the whole history of quantum physics.
0:46:29 And how this idea had come up, but rejected.
0:46:42 It was very interesting to learn how the implications of that, which we’ve heard about with multiverse and all these crazy ideas, were rejected by scientists who were materialists.
0:46:47 And it was interesting to learn that materialism in the science is basically a religion.
0:46:50 And that’s fascinating.
0:46:52 How did you find this book?
0:46:55 My partner, James Joaquin, at Obvious.
0:46:59 We like to talk about how the universe works and then invest in startups.
0:47:02 Sounds like a great job.
0:47:04 All right.
0:47:10 Do you tend to find books, again, just riffing on how you choose your intake, right?
0:47:15 And there’s finding the signal and then there’s tuning out the noise.
0:47:19 I mean, I haven’t had any social apps on my phone for years at this point.
0:47:25 Because I just don’t have the control to be like the heroin addict wandering into the heroin den.
0:47:27 But then there’s choosing the signal.
0:47:39 And I think books are still, if you can do it with a slightly longer attention span or to cultivate that, a great way of finding these, like I said earlier, scent trails to follow.
0:47:46 But you still have a problem because there are 100,000 plus books published in hardcover alone in the U.S. every year.
0:47:48 How do you choose your books?
0:47:49 And do any other books come to mind?
0:47:51 I wish I had a better way.
0:47:55 I should ask you, how many books do you read a month?
0:47:56 Probably four or five.
0:47:57 Okay.
0:47:58 You read a lot more than I do.
0:48:01 But I may read two a month.
0:48:09 But I think it’s kind of haphazard, which is scary because you’re going to select a very tiny portion.
0:48:11 Yeah, Tim Urban style, right?
0:48:14 It’s like you’ve got time for however many books left in your life.
0:48:15 Right, right.
0:48:18 Great book, by the way, Tim Urban’s book.
0:48:20 I have the, it’s pretty random.
0:48:23 It’s just like wandering, like I’ll buy tons of books.
0:48:28 I read mostly on my phone, but I’ll buy physical books to remember that the book exists.
0:48:35 And then, so I’ll have it laying around the house and be like, oh, I should, oh, this is interesting.
0:48:37 And then I’ll go, because I’ll just read it on my phone.
0:48:39 But I feel like I should have a better way.
0:48:41 I also watch a lot of YouTube, I have to admit.
0:48:43 What do you watch on YouTube?
0:48:46 It’s got to be better than what I watch.
0:48:49 I end up in some weird corners.
0:48:59 I watch music content, like how to make music, like make music as a hobby as well.
0:49:01 And then like quantum physics stuff.
0:49:03 Do you have a background in physics?
0:49:07 No, I don’t even understand it.
0:49:12 I don’t want to give the impression that I, I, I’m an expert on any of this.
0:49:13 I just follow my curiosity.
0:49:14 Yeah.
0:49:19 I used to just exclusively consume business and technology and startup stuff.
0:49:27 Most of my adult life, I was CEO of a company and just waking up every day, desperately trying to make that succeed.
0:49:32 And so a lot of my new stuff, like music, it was like, it was just fun.
0:49:34 Do you read any fiction?
0:49:36 I’m trying to read more fiction.
0:49:39 I tried reading that book that you recommended a little while back.
0:49:41 Oh, it’s so hard.
0:49:42 It was so hard.
0:49:45 A little big, little big, little big by John Crowley.
0:49:52 This is the one book that I hesitate to recommend because nine out of 10 people are just like, what the fuck?
0:49:54 You even said that in the recommendation.
0:49:55 I’m like, I can, I can handle it.
0:49:56 I got this.
0:49:58 I’m going to do it.
0:49:59 I, I, I gave up.
0:50:00 Yeah.
0:50:05 The more drugs one has done, the easier it is to eventually get into the talking fish section of the book.
0:50:06 Okay.
0:50:09 When then you kind of cross the Rubicon and it’s all in.
0:50:11 But yeah, John Crowley, any other fiction books?
0:50:13 You said you’re trying.
0:50:18 Oh, I just read this Miranda July book, All Fours.
0:50:19 Okay.
0:50:19 It’s good.
0:50:20 She’s hilarious.
0:50:22 It’s random.
0:50:22 Yeah.
0:50:23 Got it.
0:50:26 All right.
0:50:35 So if we look back at the products that you’ve built, if you were to build any of them again today,
0:50:41 are there any features you would either remove or add that come to mind?
0:50:51 I think a lot of cases, I was much too eager to add things, especially medium.
0:50:54 Medium, I definitely prematurely scaled.
0:50:56 And I just wanted to create a nice…
0:50:58 Why do you say that?
0:50:59 That it prematurely scaled?
0:51:08 I’m good at seeing like systems and like a product and like most of the things I build are systems.
0:51:10 They’re not just, you know, a product.
0:51:17 And with medium, I had lots of experience understanding the internet and publishing some platform.
0:51:20 And I was like, wanted to build everything new.
0:51:28 And that may or may not have been possible, but I tried to do it all at once, which was, I think, the mistake.
0:51:35 And so that’s why I say we’re prematurely scaled is just that it takes time to get everything right.
0:51:38 And, you know, the company and the product, etc.
0:51:44 And because when you’re trying to do a whole bunch of things at once, it’s classic failing mode to try to bite off more than you can chew.
0:51:55 And almost every, I’d say 80% of the time, if I meet with a startup or founder, which I don’t really do anymore, if they ask me their advice, they say, do less.
0:51:59 And so medium, it was like that.
0:52:02 It was like build a great writing platform.
0:52:04 And I got impatient for growth.
0:52:12 Was that due to outside pressure or was that an internally generated pressure?
0:52:16 It was internal, but it was self-imposed by me.
0:52:28 But it was also, this is a part of prematurely scaling is if you get beyond a handful of employees, it’s as much pressure from employees as it is from investors.
0:52:35 And if you have everyone around the table and everyone’s seeing all that, then you can kind of take your time more.
0:52:44 But if you, like, people are having doubts and you have to sell internally all the time before you figure it all out, that’s a dangerous place to be.
0:52:46 So that’s where we were for a while.
0:52:54 So when you say do less, right, I’m sure a lot of folks in this audience, I’ve been in a position where I’m trying to do more things than I should.
0:53:04 Taking a maybe shotgun approach to trying to impatiently get seven things done when I should probably put them in some type of logical sequence.
0:53:17 So if you’re trying to take a more rifle-like approach and you could give the example with medium or it could be with Mosey or otherwise, how do you choose the first few things to focus on?
0:53:24 When you have this ocean of possibilities, looking back, we can use this as a starting point at, say, medium.
0:53:28 What would you have focused on in terms of feature set or otherwise?
0:53:35 I’ll use Mosey as an example of that, sorry, because it’s fresher in my mind, but where we’ve done a much better job.
0:53:40 So Mosey I originally conceived of as a better contacts app.
0:53:46 And the idea was, it’s a very old idea, like the Plaxo idea, if you remember that.
0:53:47 I do remember.
0:53:50 I remember hearing about Plaxo 2001 or something like that.
0:53:57 And the idea of Plaxo, pre-smartphone, desktop, like a Rolodex on your computer.
0:54:03 But if I have your business card in my Rolodex, you can update it on my Rolodex.
0:54:16 I heard that idea, I’m like, duh, that’s like one of the many things that the internet is going to change is like the difference of being in a connected world versus a disconnected world is in what utility and great stuff come from that.
0:54:23 And then fast forward 2023, we still don’t have that, which is kind of crazy.
0:54:28 Like I have this contacts app and it’s like lacking information, it’s incomplete, it’s outdated.
0:54:31 So it’s like, I’m going to build a better contacts app.
0:54:38 And then it led to the idea of, okay, if you managed to do that and got lots of people connected, then you would actually have this private social network.
0:54:39 Then you could do all kinds of things.
0:54:48 And one of the ideas we had was location sharing or like city level location sharing.
0:54:51 But we also have these ideas around customizing.
0:54:57 If it’s a digital business card, it was like, what if you could customize it, make it look really cool and choose your fonts and colors.
0:55:01 And wouldn’t that be just fun and kind of a throwback?
0:55:03 So we actually built that.
0:55:10 We built this whole system for making these cool looking cards that would show up for your friends in your Mosey.
0:55:14 And then we killed it all, thankfully.
0:55:19 And that was painful because, you know, you’ve gone down a path with the team.
0:55:20 They work really hard.
0:55:22 And like, actually, you know what?
0:55:30 This is complicating our vision because what we’re hearing from people and what we’re sensing is that’s kind of noise compared to the utility.
0:55:36 What I just want to know is when my friend’s in town or I just want to know when I’m going to a city, like, where are my friends?
0:55:38 And all the rest of this is noise.
0:55:39 So we ripped that out.
0:55:48 How are you going to approach the invite process to show your contacts?
0:55:52 Because this seems to have been a challenge with some previous attempts at this work.
0:55:58 If I look at my contacts, I’ve had, I mean, my contacts is this bloated monster full of people.
0:56:03 A lot of them are sort of acquaintances I don’t really want to keep in touch with.
0:56:07 They’re probably a handful of frenemies where I’m like, definitely don’t want to see those people.
0:56:10 Some crazies, don’t want to see them either.
0:56:13 But they’re still somewhere hidden in my contacts.
0:56:18 So how do I just have my real friends notified?
0:56:19 Good question.
0:56:23 We are assuming, for starters, we made this a false assumption.
0:56:30 If you are in the phone book of someone else and they’re in yours, that you’re willing to share more than your phone number.
0:56:31 You’re willing to share your private profile.
0:56:35 And we’re not sharing anything that’s never public.
0:56:42 But that’s, if you’ve given your phone number to them, then you can see what we build in mode Z profile, which is just, it’s not addressed.
0:56:44 It’s like social handles.
0:56:47 It’s more or less what would just show up on a social network profile.
0:56:50 But some people are nervous about that.
0:56:55 So, I mean, you can not sync your contacts and build it from scratch, would be the answer.
0:56:57 And then plans have a separate mode.
0:57:05 So, what people are most nervous about, and we want to make very clear, is it’s not going to tell everybody in your address book where you are.
0:57:08 We don’t even automatically update your location.
0:57:09 You put in plans.
0:57:19 And then at the plan level, there’s another level of privacy where you just say, you have to actually opt in to say, this person can see my plans.
0:57:21 Does that make sense?
0:57:22 Yeah, it makes sense.
0:57:30 We’re trying to take a conservative approach to privacy, but balance that, obviously, with ease of use and growth and having enough nodes in the network.
0:57:33 But we’re not compromising on privacy.
0:57:40 We never want to surprise someone that they’re sharing information with that random ex or crazy person who happens to be in their phone book.
0:57:43 So, we’re coming up on time pretty quickly.
0:57:45 You guys excited for a fun night?
0:57:48 There’s a lot coming.
0:57:52 You mentioned, I think it was January 2024.
0:57:55 I could meditate every day this year.
0:58:00 Do you have anything on the docket for 2025 that’s like that?
0:58:01 Do you make resolutions?
0:58:06 No, that’s the only one I’d made in years, actually.
0:58:09 Other than just general themes, like dance more.
0:58:11 Here we are tonight.
0:58:12 You guys are in luck.
0:58:13 You guys ready?
0:58:17 All right, well, we’re going to land the plane.
0:58:23 Anything else you’d like to say, have any closing comments, thoughts for the audience?
0:58:26 I would just say, Tim, thank you for having me.
0:58:29 Tim and I have known each other for like 20 years.
0:58:30 I’ve never been on the podcast.
0:58:31 That was fun.
0:58:41 And it’s just a whole night of nostalgia because we’re back in Austin and it’s Dignation and it’s a good time.
0:58:42 So, I hope you guys enjoy it.
0:58:46 Yeah, I will say, guys, it feels like the mojo is back to South by after COVID.
0:58:48 It took a few years.
0:58:51 And you have an amazing night in store.
0:58:53 So, we’ll get more people out here in just a minute.
0:58:55 I will be back out in maybe a half hour.
0:58:59 I have a surprise and maybe even some gifts for everybody here.
0:59:00 So, stick around.
0:59:02 And Ev, thank you.
0:59:03 So much fun.
0:59:04 Have a great night, everybody.
0:59:10 Hey, guys, this is Tim again.
0:59:12 Just one more thing before you take off.
0:59:14 And that is Five Bullet Friday.
0:59:19 Would you enjoy getting a short email from me every Friday that provides a little fun before the weekend?
0:59:26 Between one and a half and two million people subscribe to my free newsletter, my super short newsletter called Five Bullet Friday.
0:59:27 Easy to sign up.
0:59:28 Easy to cancel.
0:59:37 It is basically a half page that I send out every Friday to share the coolest things I’ve found or discovered or have started exploring over that week.
0:59:39 It’s kind of like my diary of cool things.
0:59:51 It often includes articles I’m reading, books I’m reading, albums perhaps, gadgets, gizmos, all sorts of tech tricks and so on that get sent to me by my friends, including a lot of podcast guests.
0:59:55 And these strange esoteric things end up in my field.
0:59:56 And then I test them.
0:59:58 And then I share them with you.
1:00:01 So, if that sounds fun, again, it’s very short.
1:00:05 A little tiny bite of goodness before you head off for the weekend.
1:00:06 Something to think about.
1:00:09 If you’d like to try it out, just go to Tim.blog slash Friday.
1:00:10 Type that into your browser.
1:00:13 Tim.blog slash Friday.
1:00:15 Drop in your email and you’ll get the very next one.
1:00:16 Thanks for listening.
1:00:21 I want to give my pooch, Molly, the best of everything.
1:00:24 She is my companion.
1:00:25 She is my guardian.
1:00:28 She’s been with me for almost 10 years now, 24-7.
1:00:31 I want to give her the absolute best.
1:00:33 And that includes food, especially food.
1:00:35 It is the bedrock of her health.
1:00:38 That’s why I give her Sundays for Dogs, this episode’s sponsored.
1:00:43 Sundays is air-dried, which locks in more nutrition and flavor than other cooking methods, while
1:00:46 also making it ultra-convenient to store, scoop, and serve.
1:00:50 As you guys know, I’m on the road all the time, and Sundays is convenient.
1:00:54 I no longer have to spend time prepping meals or figuring out what is best for Molly.
1:00:57 I’d rather spend that time playing or hiking with her.
1:00:58 I’m in the mountains right now.
1:00:59 She wants to be in the snow.
1:01:04 Sundays for Dogs meets or surpasses industry standards using high-quality ingredients.
1:01:05 That’s the focus.
1:01:09 Not through synthetic vitamins, which is what most other dog food companies do.
1:01:14 Sundays knows your pup is an important member of your family, so they only use USDA-grade meat,
1:01:16 which is fit for human consumption.
1:01:17 So, check it out.
1:01:20 Get 50% off of your first order of Sundays.
1:01:25 Go to sundaysfordogs.com slash Tim, or use code Tim at checkout.
1:01:34 That’s S-U-N-D-A-Y-S-F-O-R-D-O-G-S dot com slash Tim, sundaysfordogs.com slash Tim.
1:01:41 I am always on the hunt for protein sources that don’t require sacrifices in taste or nutrition.
1:01:42 I don’t want to eat sawdust.
1:01:45 I also don’t want a candy bar that’s disguised as a protein bar.
1:01:49 And that’s why I love the protein bars from today’s sponsor, David.
1:01:52 They are my go-to protein source on the run.
1:01:56 I throw them in my bag whenever I am in doubt that I might be able to get a good source of protein.
1:02:00 And with David Protein Bars, you get the fewest calories for the most protein ever.
1:02:06 David has 28 grams of protein, 150 calories, and zero grams of sugar.
1:02:12 I was actually first introduced to them by my friend Peter Atiyah, MD, who is their chief science officer.
1:02:17 Many of you know Peter, and he really does his due diligence on everything.
1:02:19 And on top of that, David tastes great.
1:02:21 Their bars come in six delicious flavors.
1:02:22 They are all worth trying.
1:02:27 And as I mentioned before, I will grab a few of those from running out the door if I think
1:02:31 I might end up in a situation where I can’t get sufficient protein.
1:02:32 And why is that important?
1:02:37 Well, adequate protein intake is critical for building and preserving muscle mass, especially
1:02:38 as we age.
1:02:44 And one of the biggest things that you want to pay attention to is counteracting sarcopenia,
1:02:45 age-related muscle loss.
1:02:47 And for that, you need enough protein.
1:02:49 When in doubt, up your protein.
1:02:52 Protein is also the most satiating macronutrient.
1:02:53 What does that mean?
1:02:58 It means that protein, out of carbohydrates, fat, and protein, inhibits your appetite while
1:03:02 also feeding all the things you want to feed, which helps you consume fewer calories throughout
1:03:02 the day.
1:03:04 You’re less inclined to eat garbage.
1:03:08 All of that contributes to fat loss and reducing the risk of various diseases.
1:03:14 And now, you guys, listeners of The Tim Ferriss Show, who buy four boxes, get a fifth box for free.
1:03:15 You can check it out.
1:03:17 You can also buy one box at a time.
1:03:21 Try them for yourself at davidprotein.com slash Tim.
1:03:22 Learn all about it.
1:03:28 That’s davidprotein.com slash Tim to get a free box with a four-box purchase or simply learn more.
1:03:29 Check it out.
1:03:31 davidprotein.com slash Tim.
0:00:09 of The Tim Ferriss Show, where it is my job, each interview, to deconstruct world-class
0:00:15 performers, to tease out the habits, routines, influences, and resources that you can apply
0:00:19 to your own lives from people from every discipline imaginable, ranging from entertainment
0:00:25 to the military to technology and beyond. Today, my guest is Ev Williams, and what a
0:00:30 story he has. Ev is the co-founder and chairman of Mosey, a new social network that helps
0:00:36 you connect in person with the people you care about most. Over the past 25 years, Ev has
0:00:41 co-founded several companies that have helped shape the modern internet, including Blogger,
0:00:46 Medium, and Twitter. Ev is also the co-founder of Obvious Ventures, an investment firm that
0:00:51 focuses on world-positive companies addressing major systemic problems. Ev grew up on a farm
0:00:57 in Clarks, Nebraska, has two sons, and lives mostly in the Bay Area. This particular episode,
0:01:05 this conversation was recorded live in Austin, Texas, at the Dignation relaunch. That’s Dignation.show
0:01:11 for the show itself, and that is where Dign.com was relaunched. It was recently acquired by its
0:01:17 original founder, my good friend Kevin Rose, and Reddit co-founder Alexis Ohanian, formerly
0:01:22 arch-nemeses, but they have joined forces and invited me along for all the fun and surprises
0:01:28 as they celebrated the relaunch. Go to Dign.com and sign up to get early access when the invites
0:01:36 go out. One more time, Dign.com, that’s D-I-G-G.com. You can find Mosey, that is Ev’s newest creation,
0:01:42 at Mosey.app. That’s available on iOS right now. You can find Obvious Ventures at Obvious.com,
0:01:49 and you can find him on Twitter. That is also known as X, at Ev, at E-V. We’re going to get
0:01:54 right into this wide-ranging conversation with just a few words first from the people who make
0:02:00 this podcast possible. I am always on the hunt for protein sources that don’t require sacrifices
0:02:06 in taste or nutrition. I don’t want to eat sawdust. I also don’t want a candy bar that’s disguised as a
0:02:11 protein bar. And that’s why I love the protein bars from today’s sponsor, David. They are my go-to
0:02:17 protein source on the run. I throw them in my bag whenever I am in doubt that I might be able to get
0:02:21 a good source of protein. And with David protein bars, you get the fewest calories for the most
0:02:28 protein ever. David has 28 grams of protein, 150 calories, and zero grams of sugar. I was actually
0:02:34 first introduced to them by my friend Peter Atiyah, MD, who is their chief science officer. Many of you
0:02:40 know of Peter, and he really does his due diligence on everything. And on top of that, David tastes great.
0:02:46 Their bars come in six delicious flavors. They’re all worth trying. And as I mentioned before, I will
0:02:51 grab a few of those from running out the door if I think I might end up in a situation where I can’t
0:02:56 get sufficient protein. And why is that important? Well, adequate protein intake is critical for building
0:03:03 and preserving muscle mass, especially as we age. And one of the biggest things that you want to pay
0:03:07 attention to is counteracting sarcopenia, age-related muscle loss. And for that, you need
0:03:13 enough protein. When in doubt, up your protein. Protein is also the most satiating macronutrient.
0:03:18 What does that mean? It means that protein out of carbohydrates, fat, and protein inhibits your
0:03:23 appetite while also feeding all the things you want to feed, which helps you consume fewer calories
0:03:27 throughout the day. You’re less inclined to eat garbage. All of that contributes to fat loss and
0:03:32 reducing the risk of various diseases. And now, you guys, listeners of The Tim Ferriss Show,
0:03:38 who buy four boxes, get a fifth box for free. You can check it out. You can also buy one box at a
0:03:45 time. Try them for yourself at davidprotein.com slash tim. Learn all about it. That’s davidprotein.com
0:03:50 slash tim to get a free box with a four-box purchase or simply learn more. Check it out.
0:03:52 davidprotein.com slash tim.
0:04:01 I want to give my pooch, Molly, the best of everything. She is my companion. She is my guardian.
0:04:07 She’s been with me for almost 10 years now, 24-7. I want to give her the absolute best,
0:04:12 and that includes food, especially food. It is the bedrock of her health. That’s why I give her
0:04:17 Sundays for Dogs, this episode’s sponsor. Sundays is air-dried, which locks in more nutrition and
0:04:21 flavor than other cooking methods, while also making it ultra-convenient to store, scoop, and
0:04:26 serve. As you guys know, I’m on the road all the time, and Sundays is convenient. I no longer have
0:04:31 to spend time prepping meals or figuring out what is best for Molly. I’d rather spend that time playing
0:04:35 or hiking with her. I’m in the mountains right now. She wants to be in the snow. Sundays for Dogs
0:04:41 meets or surpasses industry standards using high-quality ingredients. That’s the focus. Not through
0:04:46 synthetic vitamins, which is what most other dog food companies do. Sundays knows your pup is an
0:04:51 important member of your family, so they only use USDA-grade meat, which is fit for human consumption.
0:04:59 So, check it out. Get 50% off of your first order of Sundays. Go to sundaysfordogs.com slash Tim,
0:05:09 or use code Tim at checkout. That’s S-U-N-D-A-Y-S-F-O-R-D-O-G-S dot com slash Tim, sundaysfordogs.com slash Tim.
0:05:16 Optimal minimal. At this altitude, I can run flat out for a half mile before my hands start
0:05:21 shaking. Can I ask you a personal question? Now would it seem an appropriate time? What
0:05:25 if I did the opposite? I’m a cybernetic organism living tissue over a metal endoskeleton.
0:05:44 Hello, hello. Good Lord. Wow. I can’t see anything because there’s so many lights, but thank you for coming.
0:05:55 I’m Kevin Rose. Tonight is going to be a really fun night. A lot of surprises, a lot of fun. In 2004,
0:06:02 when I was first out here, I would pull up my cell phone and I would text a number, which was…
0:06:04 What number was it?
0:06:11 4444, which was for Twitter. And you would say, I’m going to be at this bar or this is what I’m eating,
0:06:16 which is basically what you would say back then. And people would show up and it was awesome.
0:06:24 So it is really cool to have this kind of throwback, this time, this new reboot in many ways.
0:06:34 And to kick it off, I have an old, old wooden friend, as an Anchorman reference, Tim Ferriss, who is here.
0:06:42 We were reminiscing on the old times. He had more hair back then. I had less gray hair.
0:06:49 And for Ev, we were texting things, not using apps. So Ev Williams, co-founder of Twitter and Tim Ferriss.
0:06:55 Hey, everybody. Hey, guys. Good evening.
0:07:01 Welcome to Austin. Beautiful, beautiful, warm Austin.
0:07:05 You guys ready for a fun night? I have my party pants on.
0:07:13 And it’s nostalgic to be here because the last time I was in this venue was probably 2007,
0:07:17 I think, for a Dignation event. May have been a little bit earlier.
0:07:20 Oh, Stubbs. Excuse me, Mohawk.
0:07:24 That’s my early-onset dementia kicking in yet again.
0:07:26 So we’re going to pretend that didn’t happen.
0:07:34 And we’re going to move on to discussing cutting-edge technology with Ev right here.
0:07:37 And I know the question you all want to ask, which is,
0:07:41 what is the past, present, and future of VHS?
0:07:46 And we’re going to begin with your history with VHS.
0:07:48 Great. Thanks, Tim.
0:07:49 Hey, everybody.
0:07:52 I don’t get asked about VHS enough these days.
0:07:53 In fact, I don’t even know what it stands for.
0:07:56 I think what Tim is referring to is my very first internet product.
0:07:57 That’s right.
0:08:04 Which was a video cassette that was about how to use the internet.
0:08:06 You watched it on your TV.
0:08:11 The year was 1994, folks.
0:08:15 This is, it wasn’t that odd for the time,
0:08:18 but how are you going to learn about computers on the computer when you don’t have the internet?
0:08:23 So I made a tape in my basement with my college buddies,
0:08:27 and that was my very first internet product.
0:08:34 It was two hours, basically, of me explaining how to FTP by terminal.
0:08:36 I think I talked about the web for about three minutes.
0:08:38 You know, there’s this new thing called the web.
0:08:43 So we’re talking Usenet, Gopher, that type of stuff.
0:08:45 Did it sell well?
0:08:45 Was it a bestseller?
0:08:54 I think we broke even on a very low budget production.
0:08:57 So you’re known for a lot of different things.
0:08:59 Blogger, Twitter, you now have Mosey.
0:09:02 And I wanted to ask you, because here we are in person.
0:09:04 How nice is that?
0:09:04 Remember COVID?
0:09:08 It’s easy to take things like this for granted.
0:09:11 And I wanted to talk about relationships,
0:09:21 I imagine how you think about relationships, cultivating relationships, using technology to enhance relationships may have changed over time.
0:09:25 Could you just walk us through, perhaps, that trajectory?
0:09:32 Yeah, we were talking earlier today, actually, about social media and social, how the word social has changed.
0:09:38 Remember when social used to mean, like, getting together in real life, getting to know people?
0:09:42 And now the social is just this catch-all word that kind of just means the internet.
0:09:50 That was, I think, an evolution that started in maybe Facebook days.
0:09:58 Facebook was actually, in the news feed, was, I think, a social media new format, really, because it was media from people you knew.
0:10:00 We borrowed from some of that for Twitter.
0:10:02 We also borrowed from blogs for Twitter.
0:10:05 But Twitter, we never saw as necessarily social.
0:10:08 I wasn’t very focused on social, personally.
0:10:15 I think that’s the somewhat ironic thing is that I come from a very small town in Nebraska, on the farm, didn’t know a lot of people.
0:10:19 And maybe subconsciously, I liked the internet because I actually wanted to make friends.
0:10:22 But I didn’t know that at the time.
0:10:28 So, in all these technologies, I was really focused on information and ideas until fairly recently.
0:10:31 This current stage of life, I don’t want to say later stage of life.
0:10:34 The golden years.
0:10:35 That was golden years.
0:10:39 I started thinking a lot more about relationships.
0:10:49 And I personally had under-invested in relationships and over-invested, I think, in just, like, maybe business.
0:10:49 Yeah.
0:10:51 So, yeah, I’ve been thinking about that a lot lately.
0:10:59 You seem to me to be a thoughtful, you don’t seem, you are a very thoughtful, I want to say systematic guy.
0:11:06 How have you translated thinking about maybe countering the trend of under-investing in relationships?
0:11:07 Have you done anything?
0:11:08 I started a company.
0:11:13 Let’s hear about it, because I’m sure there are people here who have it.
0:11:21 I started a company called Mosey within the last year, and Mosey is an app for finding out where your friends are and getting together.
0:11:28 We like to say it’s actually a social app, because it’s really about getting together with friends by knowing where they are.
0:11:29 So, I’m in Austin.
0:11:31 Who do I know in Austin?
0:11:32 I know a bunch of people in Austin.
0:11:37 I may have forgotten who I know in Austin, but Mosey tells me who’s in Austin, tells me what they’re doing, that type of thing.
0:11:42 The way I look back on some of the early ideas about social and the internet is, of course, we connected with people.
0:11:44 We’ve all made friends through the internet.
0:11:47 We’ve built meaning relationships or maintained relationships.
0:11:51 We’re wired to be deeply social, but that wiring was way before screens.
0:11:55 And that wiring to be social didn’t happen in public.
0:12:02 And so, Mosey is a very simple idea where we said, well, what would an actual social network look like?
0:12:04 And so, that’s what we’re building.
0:12:20 So, I want to edge into a question about sort of initial product design and what your expectations might be just by rewinding the clock a little bit and talking about Odeo a little bit.
0:12:27 So, I’ve read about board meetings, and you’ll have to tell a bit of the context related to Odeo, in which you’re presenting usage metrics at the time.
0:12:30 It wasn’t growing, but it wasn’t dead.
0:12:32 Maybe it was semi-growing.
0:12:47 And as a lot of people here read in the media, as they used to see on magazine covers, the stories of perseverance against all odds, it failed 100 times, but then we succeeded the 101st time, get a lot of airplay.
0:12:56 But I think that something that doesn’t get as much attention is strategic stopping or strategic quitting.
0:13:00 Sometimes it doesn’t make sense to keep beating your head against a wall.
0:13:04 So, could you take us back to Odeo and walk us through that experience?
0:13:13 Yeah, so Odeo was a podcasting company that I co-founded in 2005, which, if you recall, was pre-iPhone.
0:13:17 So, and not to correct Kevin, but Twitter was 2007 when it was here.
0:13:19 So, this was before Twitter.
0:13:22 And podcasting seemed cool.
0:13:24 I don’t know if you’ve heard about it, Tim.
0:13:30 But we’re like, let’s build a platform for podcasts.
0:13:34 And we worked on it for maybe six months.
0:13:35 We raised some money.
0:13:44 Because I had previously sold the company to Google, I was fortunate enough to get some VC funding before we even had a product, which turns out isn’t always fortunate.
0:13:47 So, we had high expectations from kind of get-go.
0:13:49 This is in 2005.
0:13:57 Apple released podcasts in iTunes that summer in 2005, which completely blew us away.
0:13:58 It was totally unexpected.
0:14:04 This is very, very early for podcasts, even though the name comes from the iPod.
0:14:09 And they basically obsoleted what we had been doing for six to nine months overnight.
0:14:14 Then we, you know, we were like, oh, maybe we create a podcast creation tool.
0:14:16 You know, we were trying to pivot and whatnot.
0:14:21 And I think I just came to the conclusion at some point.
0:14:27 The way Biz Stone tells the story is that I wrote this big strategic doc about how to succeed in the podcasting business.
0:14:32 And it was very convincing about the pivot we could do and to do.
0:14:34 And I was like, I don’t want to do this.
0:14:39 And so, I went to investors and said, I don’t think this company is on a great trajectory.
0:14:40 Maybe we should just stop.
0:14:41 But that was unusual.
0:14:45 This is kind of pivoting now, of course, is taken for granted.
0:14:47 That your idea isn’t right the first time out.
0:14:49 That was less assumed back then.
0:14:51 So, I was embarrassed.
0:14:53 I was like, I said I was going to start a podcasting company.
0:14:54 And I raised this money.
0:14:56 I have these employees.
0:14:56 I have these investors.
0:14:59 But I don’t believe in it.
0:15:00 I don’t believe in this vision anymore.
0:15:03 Even though it wasn’t dead, as you said.
0:15:10 Was the reason you didn’t believe in it based on the emergence of iTunes and what that represented?
0:15:11 Or was there more to it?
0:15:13 I wasn’t that into it personally.
0:15:15 I wasn’t a podcaster.
0:15:17 And I think that was another principle that I’ve learned over and over.
0:15:21 is I think some people can build products for other people.
0:15:23 And thank goodness they do.
0:15:25 But I just build products for myself.
0:15:28 And I was like, I don’t know.
0:15:30 I don’t know what the product is here.
0:15:31 We need to build that I want.
0:15:42 But I think to your question about strategic quitting, I think a ton of companies and a ton of people just get in these life situations where they just keep going.
0:15:43 And that’s certainly what I was taught.
0:15:50 In fact, Blogger, which is the company I sold to Google, I completely ran out of money after the dot-com bust.
0:15:56 I had to lay off all my employees, was barely able to pay my rent, and kept working on it, kept working on it, kept working on it.
0:15:59 Eventually sold it to Google very happily.
0:16:04 And to me, I was like, yes, that is the triumph of perseverance, and that’s why you should stick to things.
0:16:07 And then Odeo, thankfully, we didn’t.
0:16:10 We did create another company out of that.
0:16:14 But I think this idea of it’s okay to quit is underappreciated.
0:16:17 And the main reason, everyone knows about sunk cost fallacy.
0:16:21 There’s a great book, by the way, by Andy Duke called Quit, which I highly recommend.
0:16:28 And it actually was part of the reason a couple years ago I stepped down from Medium, which is my last company I was running for a long time.
0:16:30 And I quit my job.
0:16:31 The company is still going.
0:16:36 But I was like, I realized that I was just working as, like, it was ego.
0:16:37 It was pride.
0:16:39 It was expectations of other people.
0:16:49 And the book is really great, if you don’t know it, because it just points out all the reasons beyond sunk cost fallacy that people do things way longer than it makes sense to do them.
0:16:52 And the biggest thing is they underestimate opportunity costs.
0:16:58 If you’re working on one thing, and there’s identity and ego and all those other things, but it’s like you don’t know what else there is.
0:17:04 Until you clear that your attention away from the thing that you’ve been struggling with.
0:17:11 And so I think if you’re in a situation where it feels like a slog, quitting is probably a good idea.
0:17:18 So Andy Duke, for people who might not recognize the name, well-known poker player, also wrote Thinking in Bets, I believe.
0:17:31 So let me ask you then, if you look back now, hindsight 2020, at Ev, who persevered with Blogger and then ended up selling it to Google at a very good time to get Google equity.
0:17:41 Did he just get lucky, did he just get lucky in that perseverance, or was there some type of scent trail that in retrospect you can say, well, it was actually the right thing to do at that time?
0:17:49 I’ve struggled with this because I don’t have a clean way to understand it, but I think one big difference is I believed in the vision of Blogger the whole time.
0:17:54 And that was where Odio was like, I’m keep coming to work and make it succeed.
0:18:01 It was also, I was lucky because Blogger being my first real company, and I was a little bit younger.
0:18:07 I believed in the vision, but I also just was petrified of failing.
0:18:09 I just couldn’t accept that possibility for myself.
0:18:11 I also didn’t have a lot of other prospects.
0:18:13 I’d never really had a job.
0:18:14 I didn’t have a degree.
0:18:20 The dot-com boom was like, well, I don’t know what the hell else I’m going to do if I don’t make this succeed.
0:18:22 So I’m going to stick with it.
0:18:23 But it didn’t really make sense.
0:18:25 So that speaks to your prior comment about the opportunity cost.
0:18:26 Yeah.
0:18:26 Right?
0:18:27 Exactly.
0:18:28 Actually, good point.
0:18:28 Yeah.
0:18:29 Yeah.
0:18:32 Like your opportunity cost was not as high, maybe, at that point.
0:18:33 Fair.
0:18:34 Yeah.
0:18:35 By pursuing something else.
0:18:35 Yeah.
0:18:37 So you mentioned something came out of Odeo.
0:18:38 What came out of Odeo?
0:18:40 A company called Twitter.
0:18:42 I still call it that.
0:18:43 I don’t know about you guys.
0:18:48 How did that happen?
0:18:55 Well, the investors, thankfully, my board, I went to board and said, this is my honest assessment of Odeo.
0:19:01 And they, as good investors do, said, well, we didn’t believe in investing in podcasting.
0:19:02 We invest in you.
0:19:03 You have a great team.
0:19:05 You got any other ideas?
0:19:10 And I thought, hmm, I must have other ideas.
0:19:14 So I always prided myself on having ideas.
0:19:16 But I went back to the team and said, I don’t have any ideas.
0:19:17 You guys got any ideas?
0:19:23 And we ended up doing a hackathon where we basically, for a couple weeks.
0:19:25 So an internal hackathon.
0:19:26 Internal hackathon.
0:19:27 Where we just said, hey, let’s all break into teams.
0:19:29 How many employees did you have at the time?
0:19:32 I think it was around 12, 12, 14, something like that.
0:19:34 People worked on a bunch of stuff.
0:19:41 A lot of it was related because we were doing audio and, you know, recording in the browser with flash and stuff like that.
0:19:47 Again, pre-smartphone, but we were dabbling with text messaging.
0:19:55 And there’s a couple of the engineers that were familiar with how to send text messages on mass, which was little known at that time.
0:19:58 There was no real APIs for that.
0:20:01 And so people were trying a lot of things along those lines.
0:20:04 Maybe we send an audio voice memo.
0:20:05 Maybe we record something in the browser.
0:20:08 Little kind of social things.
0:20:14 Then one of the ideas was to, the way I remember, first it was record a message actually via your phone.
0:20:16 And then it got broadcast text to people.
0:20:17 And then they could listen to it.
0:20:22 And then that quickly evolved to, what if we got rid of the audio?
0:20:24 Maybe it was just text broadcast.
0:20:31 And then, you know, having come from the blogging world, that we were familiar with RSS and subscribing, which turned into following.
0:20:34 And, yeah, kind of evolved from there.
0:20:38 That was, to mention names, that was, of course, BizStone and Jack Dorsey’s project.
0:20:44 And it also was informed by Jack’s previous work on careers and status systems.
0:20:50 And at what point did you, or anyone else for that matter, realize that there was a there there?
0:20:54 Like, oh, there might be something very interesting with this.
0:20:56 We were pretty intrigued right away.
0:21:01 I mean, we certainly didn’t know the extent of it by any means.
0:21:05 But it felt new and interesting.
0:21:07 We kept evolving it.
0:21:08 It definitely wasn’t right.
0:21:11 I mean, I think no ideas come out fully baked.
0:21:13 And so there was a lot we had to get right.
0:21:15 Like, what is the graph?
0:21:22 The very first version actually was highly informed by status messages, which were a thing in Facebook.
0:21:26 But this is pre-Facebook being available to outside of colleges.
0:21:27 And we were too old to be on Facebook.
0:21:30 So we didn’t even know about status messages on Facebook.
0:21:31 But it was kind of like that.
0:21:33 It was kind of like AIM messages.
0:21:36 And the very first version, there wasn’t a whole feed.
0:21:39 It was just the latest person who had updated their status was on top.
0:21:41 And it went out via text message.
0:21:44 And so, but we’re like, hmm, interesting.
0:21:48 And we felt it was interesting when we had maybe 10 people on it.
0:21:49 10 people worked at the company.
0:21:52 And then we started getting our partners on it.
0:21:53 And we were intrigued.
0:21:55 But so this is 2006.
0:22:00 And it really wasn’t growing for months and months.
0:22:06 And really, we hit an inflection point here in Austin in 2007.
0:22:13 So I have to just mention that that particular southbound is very nostalgic for me.
0:22:18 Because I launched the 4-Hour Workweek with an overflow presentation in 2007.
0:22:23 After haranguing the shit out of Hugh Forrest.
0:22:26 Thank you for letting me fill in for a cancellation.
0:22:28 And basically next to a cafeteria.
0:22:30 My laptop failed.
0:22:33 So I ended up having to improv the thing without my slides.
0:22:42 And I remember the big screen TV in the ground level of the conference center showing tweets.
0:22:42 Yeah.
0:22:43 Going through.
0:22:44 And I was like, huh, look at that.
0:22:45 Yeah.
0:22:48 That was the idea we had.
0:22:51 It was starting to take off amongst the people we knew.
0:22:59 And South by it was always the conference where, like, the indie, cool tech people came.
0:23:00 And these were our people.
0:23:04 And they were the ones, our early adopters of Twitter, because they came from the blogging world.
0:23:06 And they were friends.
0:23:10 And so we sensed that we could get critical mass here.
0:23:14 So we talked to Hugh and whoever from his team.
0:23:17 And, of course, they were like, well, you could have a trade show floor.
0:23:18 And I’m like, no, no, no.
0:23:19 No one goes to a trade show.
0:23:25 Can we buy a screen and put it in the hall where everybody’s hanging out?
0:23:27 And that was the move.
0:23:28 And people saw that.
0:23:29 And I’m like, oh.
0:23:30 That’s amazing.
0:23:32 I didn’t realize that back story.
0:23:34 It costs $11,000.
0:23:36 It’s a great investment.
0:23:38 $11,000.
0:23:44 A little more expensive these days, I think, since you’re competing against AT&T and God knows who else.
0:23:55 But this ties into Mosey in part because I’m wondering how much your expectation is that you will design and deliver to spec,
0:24:00 maybe like an Uber, where the business model has changed relatively little over time, right?
0:24:00 It’s been very reliable.
0:24:03 It’s kind of stayed very similar.
0:24:06 With, obviously, bells and whistles and changes along the way.
0:24:13 Or is your expectation, maybe along the lines of a Twitter or Odeo, in some sense, morphing into a Twitter,
0:24:17 that Mosey is just a starting point?
0:24:22 And your expectation is it’s probably going to end up being something very, very different a year or two.
0:24:24 I’m sure it’ll end up in something very, very different.
0:24:26 It’s early for Mosey.
0:24:31 The way we think about it, in our wildest dreams, it is a ubiquitous social network.
0:24:38 And the way Facebook was at one time, but actually designed for enhancing people’s social lives and relationships.
0:24:40 Which means it’s not a media platform.
0:24:41 It’s not an advertising platform.
0:24:43 It’s not a performative platform.
0:24:45 It’s not a status-building platform.
0:24:50 It’s really about sharing information that’s important to you with people you care about and enabling.
0:24:55 It won’t all be about IRL, but that’s where folks end right now.
0:24:57 But it’s early.
0:24:58 We haven’t figured it out yet.
0:25:02 And I think that’s part of the fun, is figuring out where it goes.
0:25:05 So you impressed me at a whole lot of levels.
0:25:08 I’ve always found you to be a very deep thinker.
0:25:09 You think a lot.
0:25:14 And you choose your words carefully and ask a lot of good questions.
0:25:19 And I’m always curious about the inputs, what you feed yourself in terms of information.
0:25:22 And I’ve read that you’re fond of a few books.
0:25:31 This may have changed because this is from 2016, but Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance, Robert Persig, The Effective Executive by Peter Drucker.
0:25:40 I don’t know if you would still stand by those, but I’m curious, if so, why those books and if there are any others that you would add to that list?
0:25:42 Where’d you get that list?
0:25:44 That is New York Times.
0:25:47 EvWilliamsFavoriteBooks.html.
0:25:53 Yeah, I probably wouldn’t pick those now.
0:25:54 It’s been a while.
0:25:58 I’m not an executive anymore, so I mean, that’s not as useful.
0:26:01 Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance is great.
0:26:08 But I will mention one book very related to the conversation, which is, have you read Why Greatness Cannot Be Planned?
0:26:08 No.
0:26:09 Great title, though.
0:26:11 Why Greatness Cannot Be Planned.
0:26:13 I recommend this to 100 people.
0:26:14 Love this book.
0:26:18 The subtitle is The Myth of the Objective.
0:26:25 And the premise is by a guy named Ken Stanley and another guy who were AI researchers.
0:26:30 And the way it starts out is they, this is early AI researchers.
0:26:32 Ken Wen worked at OpenAI later.
0:26:34 They were building bots.
0:26:40 And the example they talk about is trying to build a robot to go through a maze.
0:26:45 And how they, you know, tried to program all kinds of smart algorithms into it.
0:26:49 And then they found that the most effective strategy was just try something new.
0:27:05 And they go on from that and extrapolate this idea that if you are trying to do something that hasn’t been done before, you know, we’re taught from birth and from school and everywhere is like, set your goal, make a plan to get to the plan.
0:27:06 Persevere, go through that.
0:27:13 And the premise of the book is that works if it’s something that’s been done a lot and that’s formulaic.
0:27:28 You can set a goal to run a marathon and you can, you know, download a training regime and you can go run the marathon and probably because you can’t do that to invent the computer or Twitter or like create amazing art.
0:27:29 You can’t plot it.
0:27:37 And to the extent you try to plot it, you shoot yourself in the foot because you cut off the possibilities that lay before you.
0:27:42 And I read this book when I was running media in my last company.
0:27:52 It had a great effect on me because I felt this deep sense of relief because my entire business and startup career, I’ve been deeply driven to create things.
0:27:57 I saw like companies in particular products as a creative process.
0:28:00 You know, it’s like writing a book or painting a painting.
0:28:03 It’s like you have to figure it out as you go.
0:28:05 You don’t have it fully baked in your head from day one.
0:28:11 But what I’ve seen happen a million times and happened to me is you have this intuition.
0:28:13 You kind of know what it is.
0:28:14 You start to develop it.
0:28:16 You’re like, oh, it’s this, not that.
0:28:17 Let’s try this, not that.
0:28:22 And you feel your way into what’s the best first version of it.
0:28:34 If you’re lucky and good enough that that first version, you know, meets with some success in the world, then at least in the tech world, employees and investors and business people come in.
0:28:36 It’s like, OK, where are we going next?
0:28:36 What’s the plan?
0:28:37 What’s the roadmap?
0:28:40 You know, how are we going to make the numbers go up?
0:28:44 And it doesn’t work to very far.
0:28:46 It works like a little bit to get that next stage.
0:28:49 But it doesn’t work to really innovate.
0:28:49 It doesn’t work.
0:28:53 And so you have to be comfortable with the ambiguity of not knowing where you’re going to go.
0:28:59 And this book is good and it makes its points very short.
0:29:07 It also talks about evolution a lot and how, like, the most creative force in the world is clearly nature.
0:29:10 And, like, it has no plan.
0:29:11 It just tries shit.
0:29:12 Trial and error.
0:29:13 Yeah.
0:29:14 All right.
0:29:15 Taking notes.
0:29:17 That’s going to be one of my next reads.
0:29:24 Just a quick thanks to one of our sponsors and we’ll be right back to the show.
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0:30:49 You mentioned AI, and it is the topic du jour.
0:31:02 But, I can’t believe everything you read on the internet, but I believe that 25% of the latest Y Combinator class wrote 95% plus of their code using AI.
0:31:09 And I’m curious, you have kids, what would you suggest your kids study in school?
0:31:12 My kids are here, in fact.
0:31:14 Whatever they want.
0:31:19 I mean, it depends on what the goal is.
0:31:19 I mean, I think…
0:31:21 I can frame it a little more.
0:31:22 I can strain it.
0:31:24 I would say, if people are wondering here how to…
0:31:31 I don’t want to say AI-proof themselves, because good luck predicting where that’s going to go.
0:31:38 But, are there any fundamental skills or specific skills that you think will increase in value over time?
0:31:51 For instance, I don’t know if I had kids if I would suggest they take a legal path, necessarily, since I already use AI in 30 seconds to draft most of my legal documents before I send it to human eyes.
0:31:53 Do you have any thoughts?
0:32:00 I haven’t thought about this deeply, but what comes to mind is social, human things.
0:32:01 Two things.
0:32:08 One is, I do encourage them to read and write, still, because I think that’s how you figure things out.
0:32:15 That’s, like, the best way to think and have ideas and get clarity is to write.
0:32:18 And you can’t write if you don’t read.
0:32:29 So, even if the AI can write for you, that’s fine if it’s a paper or, you know, a report or some analysis where the product is very important.
0:32:31 Like, this is the information and text that I need.
0:32:35 But, it robs you of the process of thinking.
0:32:41 So, I think problem solving, creative ideation is useful no matter what you do, ever.
0:32:44 So, I think those core skills and then social skills.
0:32:52 I mean, one of the reasons I love the school they go to is actually they have a thing called SEL, which maybe you all had, but I sure as hell didn’t have in rural Nebraska in the 70s.
0:32:57 It’s social, emotional learning, and that’s just, like, how do you connect with people?
0:33:05 I mean, we know that’s critical to any job no matter what you’re doing, and I think that’s probably, well, hopefully not going to go away.
0:33:06 Who knows?
0:33:12 I think we’re in a lot of trouble if that gets removed from you in life.
0:33:17 So, let’s shift gears a bit, and I’ll just ask a question I like to ask.
0:33:18 If it goes nowhere, it goes nowhere.
0:33:23 All right, so, metaphorically speaking, the billboard question, right?
0:33:36 So, if you were going to put a message on a billboard, could say anything, could be an image, anything at all that you would want a lot of people to see and understand, what might you put on that?
0:33:38 I love this question.
0:33:40 I might overthink it.
0:33:44 And understand.
0:33:46 So, we can assume they’ll understand.
0:33:51 The and understand I threw on there with a little creative flourish, it may complicate your thinking.
0:33:52 I’m going to build on that.
0:34:06 In thinking about this, what comes to mind, first of all, is the category is something that will help people heal, you know, just be their whole and true selves.
0:34:09 Because I think that’s where all our problems come from, is the lack of that.
0:34:17 And as much as I care about climate, I think the key to solving climate is to heal ourselves, to heal culture, to heal the planet.
0:34:18 And so, I start with the self.
0:34:30 And then my mind goes to what’s a big fundamental truth that we want everyone, let’s pretend if they read it, they’ll actually get it and know it.
0:34:36 Then I think there’s a little bit of tension between like the most fundamental truths and how actionable they are.
0:34:42 So, if we said, we are all one, which I believe, it’s like, okay, we’re all one.
0:34:44 The universe is one big thing, we’re all connected.
0:34:46 What do I do with that?
0:34:51 I mean, maybe if you really ponder that and meditate on that a long time, it’ll actually, it will do you some good.
0:35:08 But then if you move toward the spectrum of usefulness, of what’s a fundamental truth that’s more useful, you might have like some Buddhist saying like all of our suffering comes from, you know, our thoughts or inability to accept reality, which is a little bit more useful.
0:35:12 But maybe for the masses, not, still not very actionable.
0:35:22 And then you could move to like, feel your feelings, which I think would do a tremendous amount of good if people adopt, oh, feel your feelings.
0:35:25 It’s a little bit easier to imagine that, like so much of our suffering.
0:35:29 And I say this as someone who told their first therapist, I don’t understand the point of feelings.
0:35:33 I was like, they are just a nuisance and get in the way.
0:35:39 So it took me a long time to appreciate that and the avoidance that so many of us go through.
0:35:48 And then one step further might be stop drinking alcohol for six months and see how you feel.
0:35:52 Not tonight, though.
0:35:53 It’s fine.
0:35:53 We’re in a bar.
0:35:53 Not tonight.
0:35:53 Nice.
0:35:54 Starting tomorrow.
0:35:55 Starting tomorrow.
0:35:55 Consider it.
0:36:01 So following up just on the feeling your feelings, you said for a long time, and you said this to your first therapist, right?
0:36:06 If they’re just a nuisance, I’d like to know how to rid myself of these irritations.
0:36:08 What changed?
0:36:11 How did you end up going on to team feelings?
0:36:14 So, I mean, it was a long, long process.
0:36:16 I mean, the therapy helped.
0:36:17 The psychedelics helped.
0:36:25 Meditation, growth, learning, reading books, having friends, stopping drinking, actually, just for six months.
0:36:29 And I’ve gone through a lot.
0:36:32 I’ve done a lot of work, particularly in the last couple of years.
0:36:34 That’s been just super, super important.
0:36:36 Yeah, just a note on alcohol.
0:36:37 Look, I’m going to have some drinks tonight.
0:36:38 I do enjoy drinking.
0:36:47 But just a PSA for people, because ketamine is in the air.
0:36:49 Ketamine is probably in a few people’s pockets here.
0:36:51 They’re both dissociative anesthetics.
0:36:57 So if you want to feel your feelings, it’s a good idea not to engage with those things excessively.
0:37:03 And if you have a history of alcohol overuse, I would also stay away from any at-home ketamine.
0:37:08 But in terms of books or types of therapy, did you find, if there are people in the audience who are like,
0:37:14 yeah, you know what, actually, that makes sense to me, but I’ve never been able to find a handhold to get started?
0:37:16 Is there any advice you might give?
0:37:22 Probably the best thing I’ve ever done in that realm is Hoffman.
0:37:24 Have you done Hoffman?
0:37:27 Hoffman, I haven’t done Hoffman, but quite a few of my friends have.
0:37:29 So there’s this thing called the Hoffman process.
0:37:33 It’s 20 years of therapy in a week in terms of the effect.
0:37:36 I mean, I got much more out of it than I ever got in therapy.
0:37:38 It’s a week-long retreat.
0:37:39 There’s a few different places.
0:37:41 The main one’s in Petaluma, California.
0:37:51 You hand over your phone, you go and do some exercises with 36 strangers and yourself for a week,
0:37:52 and you come out a new person.
0:38:00 So I’ve spoken, well, not directly, I’ve more listened, but had a conversation on this podcast
0:38:05 where the Hoffman process came up, and a lot of listeners have gone to the Hoffman process,
0:38:14 and I get letters literally every week from people who are thanking me for not really the proper credit
0:38:17 because there’s someone else who brought it up for the Hoffman process.
0:38:19 I’m very curious.
0:38:20 You mentioned the strangers.
0:38:28 Part of the reason I haven’t gone is I’m like, I don’t want to air all of my dirty laundry in front of 20 strangers.
0:38:29 I don’t know these people.
0:38:33 And I know you’re also, I think it’s fair to say, pretty introverted.
0:38:38 I would say I am, even though I’m on stage, like, safely speaking into the darkness.
0:38:44 Was that an issue at all for you, or how did you get past that?
0:38:49 It wasn’t easy, but it’s just in the context of it, it just feels very safe.
0:38:57 One of the fascinating things is, as strangers, you are not allowed to say your last name or what you do in the real world when you get there.
0:39:06 So you connect with people, and I realized, after a few days, I relied so much on people knowing who I was or what I did,
0:39:10 that it was this veil between me and other humans.
0:39:16 So you get to know people at such a deep level without really knowing any of the normal things,
0:39:19 that we would say, you meet someone here, what do you do, where do you live?
0:39:24 And that, it just feels incredibly safe.
0:39:30 But the process is, they’ve been doing it for 50-some years, it’s very evolved, it’s very well done.
0:39:32 You take any of it out of context, it sounds weird.
0:39:34 Like, I knew nothing going in.
0:39:39 And about five people brought it up to me in random conversations over a week, and were like,
0:39:42 okay, this is a message, I’m going to go sign up for this thing.
0:39:44 Show up, I had no idea.
0:39:47 And then you just dive in, and it’s incredible.
0:39:50 Yeah, from what I can tell, it’s somewhat like Fight Club.
0:39:53 It’s like, first rule of Fight Club is don’t talk about Fight Club.
0:39:56 You’re not going to find much detail on the Hoffman process.
0:40:02 This also ties into a question I was planning on asking anyway, which is, are there any habits
0:40:09 or beliefs that have really positively impacted your life in the last handful of years?
0:40:15 Could also be 10 years ago, but you’ve talked about doing a lot of work in the last handful of years.
0:40:21 Any new habits, beliefs, tools, anything come to mind that have been really helpful?
0:40:26 Yes, but I feel like they’re the ones that everybody knows.
0:40:30 Well, I mean, sometimes the fundamentals are worth a review.
0:40:33 I mean, it is exercise and meditation.
0:40:40 I dabbled in for a long time, and then I got much more serious a couple years ago about both,
0:40:44 and really, really dramatic life improvement.
0:40:46 Why did you get more serious about them?
0:40:49 You just wake up one day, and you’re like, today’s a new day?
0:40:52 Or was there a breaking point?
0:40:55 Early COVID, I was like, what the fuck am I doing?
0:41:02 I’m going to turn 50, and I need to work a hell of a lot harder to be in shape than I was.
0:41:03 So I just started doing it.
0:41:04 I was at home.
0:41:05 I had the time.
0:41:06 So I did that.
0:41:11 Although that’s increased, because you get the positive reward cycle, and it feels great.
0:41:16 And meditation, I’ve always found super valuable.
0:41:24 And I just last year, on January 2nd, 2024, I had meditated the day before.
0:41:28 I was like, I could meditate every single day this year.
0:41:34 And it was just that sort of psychological hook that you find motivating, even though it’s arbitrary.
0:41:37 And I was like, yes, I’m going to meditate every single day in 2024.
0:41:38 That’s a goal.
0:41:41 And I don’t normally set goals like that.
0:41:44 But I was like, okay, let’s see what happens.
0:41:48 And my teacher says, you can’t boil water if you keep turning off the flame.
0:41:54 And so the consistency of meditation, I underestimated what dramatic difference that makes,
0:41:57 and how fast you can drop in if you do it every single day.
0:42:01 What type of meditation did you decide on?
0:42:05 Just mindfulness, meditation, breath, and awareness.
0:42:07 Not TM, just…
0:42:10 Just like an open monitoring, feel what you feel, see what you see.
0:42:11 Yeah.
0:42:14 Are you noting things, or are you just observing?
0:42:15 Noting, sometimes noting.
0:42:18 And I know you like to know about products.
0:42:19 You know about this product.
0:42:21 But I was using The Way.
0:42:21 Yep.
0:42:22 You’ve probably talked about that before.
0:42:24 The Way is a meditation app.
0:42:26 I hadn’t used a meditation app for years.
0:42:32 The Way, I started using The Way, Kevin sent it to me, actually, around when it was still in beta.
0:42:35 And I started doing that around that time.
0:42:36 Yeah.
0:42:37 The Way is fantastic.
0:42:37 Yeah.
0:42:40 Henry Schuchman, just an incredible guy.
0:42:43 I mean, we’ll hope to meet him in person someday.
0:42:48 Do you have a favorite failure or any favorite failures that come to mind?
0:42:52 I mean, you’ve got a greatest hits list that’s pretty outstanding.
0:42:54 I’m just wondering…
0:42:55 I have a lot of failures.
0:43:03 And anything that has either taught you a lot or in some way set you up for successes later.
0:43:06 That’s two possible ways of approaching it.
0:43:13 We’re already talking about Odeo, which is kind of a failure that led to Twitter, so that’s obvious.
0:43:25 But a thing that took me a very long time to appreciate that felt like the biggest failure possible was getting fired from Twitter, which I did.
0:43:26 Yeah, I co-founded the company.
0:43:36 I was CEO for two years, and then I got fired to my great shock and dismay, and I was just devastated.
0:43:37 Absolutely.
0:43:44 Now I looked and I was like, wow, I’m probably way happier today than I would have been had I not.
0:43:46 But it took me a while.
0:43:48 It took me a long while to appreciate that.
0:43:52 What was the silver lining on that in retrospect?
0:43:58 It kind of goes back to all our unhappiness comes from thinking things shouldn’t be how they are.
0:44:09 And I was very upset because of the injustice of it and what I thought was just dumb.
0:44:19 Now, in retrospect, and even at the time, I knew I was in over my head to a certain extent, and Dick, who became the CEO, was much better at certain aspects of the job.
0:44:23 I wasn’t even that attached to being the CEO long term.
0:44:27 I was just like, maybe we should talk about it before you fire me.
0:44:32 I mean, that seemed rude, but I mean, it was my company.
0:44:38 But the silver lining was like, I didn’t have to do the job anymore.
0:44:39 That’s one.
0:44:43 I mean, I still owned a bunch of the company.
0:44:45 I didn’t have to do the job.
0:44:48 I mean, that’s like, objectively, it wasn’t that bad.
0:44:52 But as an identity and ego hit, it was tremendous.
0:44:58 I also, I thought the best thing for the company was for me to stay, and even not in CEO role.
0:45:02 And I tried to negotiate that, and that wasn’t accepted.
0:45:05 But it was more like, this is so wrong.
0:45:07 It was like, okay, what can I learn from this?
0:45:13 What is, once I was out of that, you know, some deep reflection happened.
0:45:17 And I think a long term path of personal growth.
0:45:24 Are there any people who come to mind who you’re tracking right now?
0:45:27 Or anyone you think people should pay more attention to?
0:45:34 Innovators, technologists, thinkers, alive or dead?
0:45:36 I’ll mention another book.
0:45:37 Perfect.
0:45:42 What I’ve been geeking out on recently is How the Universe Works.
0:45:45 Small side project.
0:45:45 You know.
0:45:52 Which I used to read a lot of physics books and quantum physics just for fun.
0:45:58 And it had been a while, so I started delving into that more recently.
0:46:01 Just set a bubble bath, light a candle, read some quantum physics.
0:46:06 There’s a book I’m reading right now called The One by Henry Posse.
0:46:07 I don’t know anything about him.
0:46:15 The One is about, it’s about how, it’s monism, the idea that the universe is just one thing.
0:46:20 And nature and us and this glass is all one thing.
0:46:21 And that the separation is an illusion.
0:46:26 How that fits with quantum physics and the whole history of quantum physics.
0:46:29 And how this idea had come up, but rejected.
0:46:42 It was very interesting to learn how the implications of that, which we’ve heard about with multiverse and all these crazy ideas, were rejected by scientists who were materialists.
0:46:47 And it was interesting to learn that materialism in the science is basically a religion.
0:46:50 And that’s fascinating.
0:46:52 How did you find this book?
0:46:55 My partner, James Joaquin, at Obvious.
0:46:59 We like to talk about how the universe works and then invest in startups.
0:47:02 Sounds like a great job.
0:47:04 All right.
0:47:10 Do you tend to find books, again, just riffing on how you choose your intake, right?
0:47:15 And there’s finding the signal and then there’s tuning out the noise.
0:47:19 I mean, I haven’t had any social apps on my phone for years at this point.
0:47:25 Because I just don’t have the control to be like the heroin addict wandering into the heroin den.
0:47:27 But then there’s choosing the signal.
0:47:39 And I think books are still, if you can do it with a slightly longer attention span or to cultivate that, a great way of finding these, like I said earlier, scent trails to follow.
0:47:46 But you still have a problem because there are 100,000 plus books published in hardcover alone in the U.S. every year.
0:47:48 How do you choose your books?
0:47:49 And do any other books come to mind?
0:47:51 I wish I had a better way.
0:47:55 I should ask you, how many books do you read a month?
0:47:56 Probably four or five.
0:47:57 Okay.
0:47:58 You read a lot more than I do.
0:48:01 But I may read two a month.
0:48:09 But I think it’s kind of haphazard, which is scary because you’re going to select a very tiny portion.
0:48:11 Yeah, Tim Urban style, right?
0:48:14 It’s like you’ve got time for however many books left in your life.
0:48:15 Right, right.
0:48:18 Great book, by the way, Tim Urban’s book.
0:48:20 I have the, it’s pretty random.
0:48:23 It’s just like wandering, like I’ll buy tons of books.
0:48:28 I read mostly on my phone, but I’ll buy physical books to remember that the book exists.
0:48:35 And then, so I’ll have it laying around the house and be like, oh, I should, oh, this is interesting.
0:48:37 And then I’ll go, because I’ll just read it on my phone.
0:48:39 But I feel like I should have a better way.
0:48:41 I also watch a lot of YouTube, I have to admit.
0:48:43 What do you watch on YouTube?
0:48:46 It’s got to be better than what I watch.
0:48:49 I end up in some weird corners.
0:48:59 I watch music content, like how to make music, like make music as a hobby as well.
0:49:01 And then like quantum physics stuff.
0:49:03 Do you have a background in physics?
0:49:07 No, I don’t even understand it.
0:49:12 I don’t want to give the impression that I, I, I’m an expert on any of this.
0:49:13 I just follow my curiosity.
0:49:14 Yeah.
0:49:19 I used to just exclusively consume business and technology and startup stuff.
0:49:27 Most of my adult life, I was CEO of a company and just waking up every day, desperately trying to make that succeed.
0:49:32 And so a lot of my new stuff, like music, it was like, it was just fun.
0:49:34 Do you read any fiction?
0:49:36 I’m trying to read more fiction.
0:49:39 I tried reading that book that you recommended a little while back.
0:49:41 Oh, it’s so hard.
0:49:42 It was so hard.
0:49:45 A little big, little big, little big by John Crowley.
0:49:52 This is the one book that I hesitate to recommend because nine out of 10 people are just like, what the fuck?
0:49:54 You even said that in the recommendation.
0:49:55 I’m like, I can, I can handle it.
0:49:56 I got this.
0:49:58 I’m going to do it.
0:49:59 I, I, I gave up.
0:50:00 Yeah.
0:50:05 The more drugs one has done, the easier it is to eventually get into the talking fish section of the book.
0:50:06 Okay.
0:50:09 When then you kind of cross the Rubicon and it’s all in.
0:50:11 But yeah, John Crowley, any other fiction books?
0:50:13 You said you’re trying.
0:50:18 Oh, I just read this Miranda July book, All Fours.
0:50:19 Okay.
0:50:19 It’s good.
0:50:20 She’s hilarious.
0:50:22 It’s random.
0:50:22 Yeah.
0:50:23 Got it.
0:50:26 All right.
0:50:35 So if we look back at the products that you’ve built, if you were to build any of them again today,
0:50:41 are there any features you would either remove or add that come to mind?
0:50:51 I think a lot of cases, I was much too eager to add things, especially medium.
0:50:54 Medium, I definitely prematurely scaled.
0:50:56 And I just wanted to create a nice…
0:50:58 Why do you say that?
0:50:59 That it prematurely scaled?
0:51:08 I’m good at seeing like systems and like a product and like most of the things I build are systems.
0:51:10 They’re not just, you know, a product.
0:51:17 And with medium, I had lots of experience understanding the internet and publishing some platform.
0:51:20 And I was like, wanted to build everything new.
0:51:28 And that may or may not have been possible, but I tried to do it all at once, which was, I think, the mistake.
0:51:35 And so that’s why I say we’re prematurely scaled is just that it takes time to get everything right.
0:51:38 And, you know, the company and the product, etc.
0:51:44 And because when you’re trying to do a whole bunch of things at once, it’s classic failing mode to try to bite off more than you can chew.
0:51:55 And almost every, I’d say 80% of the time, if I meet with a startup or founder, which I don’t really do anymore, if they ask me their advice, they say, do less.
0:51:59 And so medium, it was like that.
0:52:02 It was like build a great writing platform.
0:52:04 And I got impatient for growth.
0:52:12 Was that due to outside pressure or was that an internally generated pressure?
0:52:16 It was internal, but it was self-imposed by me.
0:52:28 But it was also, this is a part of prematurely scaling is if you get beyond a handful of employees, it’s as much pressure from employees as it is from investors.
0:52:35 And if you have everyone around the table and everyone’s seeing all that, then you can kind of take your time more.
0:52:44 But if you, like, people are having doubts and you have to sell internally all the time before you figure it all out, that’s a dangerous place to be.
0:52:46 So that’s where we were for a while.
0:52:54 So when you say do less, right, I’m sure a lot of folks in this audience, I’ve been in a position where I’m trying to do more things than I should.
0:53:04 Taking a maybe shotgun approach to trying to impatiently get seven things done when I should probably put them in some type of logical sequence.
0:53:17 So if you’re trying to take a more rifle-like approach and you could give the example with medium or it could be with Mosey or otherwise, how do you choose the first few things to focus on?
0:53:24 When you have this ocean of possibilities, looking back, we can use this as a starting point at, say, medium.
0:53:28 What would you have focused on in terms of feature set or otherwise?
0:53:35 I’ll use Mosey as an example of that, sorry, because it’s fresher in my mind, but where we’ve done a much better job.
0:53:40 So Mosey I originally conceived of as a better contacts app.
0:53:46 And the idea was, it’s a very old idea, like the Plaxo idea, if you remember that.
0:53:47 I do remember.
0:53:50 I remember hearing about Plaxo 2001 or something like that.
0:53:57 And the idea of Plaxo, pre-smartphone, desktop, like a Rolodex on your computer.
0:54:03 But if I have your business card in my Rolodex, you can update it on my Rolodex.
0:54:16 I heard that idea, I’m like, duh, that’s like one of the many things that the internet is going to change is like the difference of being in a connected world versus a disconnected world is in what utility and great stuff come from that.
0:54:23 And then fast forward 2023, we still don’t have that, which is kind of crazy.
0:54:28 Like I have this contacts app and it’s like lacking information, it’s incomplete, it’s outdated.
0:54:31 So it’s like, I’m going to build a better contacts app.
0:54:38 And then it led to the idea of, okay, if you managed to do that and got lots of people connected, then you would actually have this private social network.
0:54:39 Then you could do all kinds of things.
0:54:48 And one of the ideas we had was location sharing or like city level location sharing.
0:54:51 But we also have these ideas around customizing.
0:54:57 If it’s a digital business card, it was like, what if you could customize it, make it look really cool and choose your fonts and colors.
0:55:01 And wouldn’t that be just fun and kind of a throwback?
0:55:03 So we actually built that.
0:55:10 We built this whole system for making these cool looking cards that would show up for your friends in your Mosey.
0:55:14 And then we killed it all, thankfully.
0:55:19 And that was painful because, you know, you’ve gone down a path with the team.
0:55:20 They work really hard.
0:55:22 And like, actually, you know what?
0:55:30 This is complicating our vision because what we’re hearing from people and what we’re sensing is that’s kind of noise compared to the utility.
0:55:36 What I just want to know is when my friend’s in town or I just want to know when I’m going to a city, like, where are my friends?
0:55:38 And all the rest of this is noise.
0:55:39 So we ripped that out.
0:55:48 How are you going to approach the invite process to show your contacts?
0:55:52 Because this seems to have been a challenge with some previous attempts at this work.
0:55:58 If I look at my contacts, I’ve had, I mean, my contacts is this bloated monster full of people.
0:56:03 A lot of them are sort of acquaintances I don’t really want to keep in touch with.
0:56:07 They’re probably a handful of frenemies where I’m like, definitely don’t want to see those people.
0:56:10 Some crazies, don’t want to see them either.
0:56:13 But they’re still somewhere hidden in my contacts.
0:56:18 So how do I just have my real friends notified?
0:56:19 Good question.
0:56:23 We are assuming, for starters, we made this a false assumption.
0:56:30 If you are in the phone book of someone else and they’re in yours, that you’re willing to share more than your phone number.
0:56:31 You’re willing to share your private profile.
0:56:35 And we’re not sharing anything that’s never public.
0:56:42 But that’s, if you’ve given your phone number to them, then you can see what we build in mode Z profile, which is just, it’s not addressed.
0:56:44 It’s like social handles.
0:56:47 It’s more or less what would just show up on a social network profile.
0:56:50 But some people are nervous about that.
0:56:55 So, I mean, you can not sync your contacts and build it from scratch, would be the answer.
0:56:57 And then plans have a separate mode.
0:57:05 So, what people are most nervous about, and we want to make very clear, is it’s not going to tell everybody in your address book where you are.
0:57:08 We don’t even automatically update your location.
0:57:09 You put in plans.
0:57:19 And then at the plan level, there’s another level of privacy where you just say, you have to actually opt in to say, this person can see my plans.
0:57:21 Does that make sense?
0:57:22 Yeah, it makes sense.
0:57:30 We’re trying to take a conservative approach to privacy, but balance that, obviously, with ease of use and growth and having enough nodes in the network.
0:57:33 But we’re not compromising on privacy.
0:57:40 We never want to surprise someone that they’re sharing information with that random ex or crazy person who happens to be in their phone book.
0:57:43 So, we’re coming up on time pretty quickly.
0:57:45 You guys excited for a fun night?
0:57:48 There’s a lot coming.
0:57:52 You mentioned, I think it was January 2024.
0:57:55 I could meditate every day this year.
0:58:00 Do you have anything on the docket for 2025 that’s like that?
0:58:01 Do you make resolutions?
0:58:06 No, that’s the only one I’d made in years, actually.
0:58:09 Other than just general themes, like dance more.
0:58:11 Here we are tonight.
0:58:12 You guys are in luck.
0:58:13 You guys ready?
0:58:17 All right, well, we’re going to land the plane.
0:58:23 Anything else you’d like to say, have any closing comments, thoughts for the audience?
0:58:26 I would just say, Tim, thank you for having me.
0:58:29 Tim and I have known each other for like 20 years.
0:58:30 I’ve never been on the podcast.
0:58:31 That was fun.
0:58:41 And it’s just a whole night of nostalgia because we’re back in Austin and it’s Dignation and it’s a good time.
0:58:42 So, I hope you guys enjoy it.
0:58:46 Yeah, I will say, guys, it feels like the mojo is back to South by after COVID.
0:58:48 It took a few years.
0:58:51 And you have an amazing night in store.
0:58:53 So, we’ll get more people out here in just a minute.
0:58:55 I will be back out in maybe a half hour.
0:58:59 I have a surprise and maybe even some gifts for everybody here.
0:59:00 So, stick around.
0:59:02 And Ev, thank you.
0:59:03 So much fun.
0:59:04 Have a great night, everybody.
0:59:10 Hey, guys, this is Tim again.
0:59:12 Just one more thing before you take off.
0:59:14 And that is Five Bullet Friday.
0:59:19 Would you enjoy getting a short email from me every Friday that provides a little fun before the weekend?
0:59:26 Between one and a half and two million people subscribe to my free newsletter, my super short newsletter called Five Bullet Friday.
0:59:27 Easy to sign up.
0:59:28 Easy to cancel.
0:59:37 It is basically a half page that I send out every Friday to share the coolest things I’ve found or discovered or have started exploring over that week.
0:59:39 It’s kind of like my diary of cool things.
0:59:51 It often includes articles I’m reading, books I’m reading, albums perhaps, gadgets, gizmos, all sorts of tech tricks and so on that get sent to me by my friends, including a lot of podcast guests.
0:59:55 And these strange esoteric things end up in my field.
0:59:56 And then I test them.
0:59:58 And then I share them with you.
1:00:01 So, if that sounds fun, again, it’s very short.
1:00:05 A little tiny bite of goodness before you head off for the weekend.
1:00:06 Something to think about.
1:00:09 If you’d like to try it out, just go to Tim.blog slash Friday.
1:00:10 Type that into your browser.
1:00:13 Tim.blog slash Friday.
1:00:15 Drop in your email and you’ll get the very next one.
1:00:16 Thanks for listening.
1:00:21 I want to give my pooch, Molly, the best of everything.
1:00:24 She is my companion.
1:00:25 She is my guardian.
1:00:28 She’s been with me for almost 10 years now, 24-7.
1:00:31 I want to give her the absolute best.
1:00:33 And that includes food, especially food.
1:00:35 It is the bedrock of her health.
1:00:38 That’s why I give her Sundays for Dogs, this episode’s sponsored.
1:00:43 Sundays is air-dried, which locks in more nutrition and flavor than other cooking methods, while
1:00:46 also making it ultra-convenient to store, scoop, and serve.
1:00:50 As you guys know, I’m on the road all the time, and Sundays is convenient.
1:00:54 I no longer have to spend time prepping meals or figuring out what is best for Molly.
1:00:57 I’d rather spend that time playing or hiking with her.
1:00:58 I’m in the mountains right now.
1:00:59 She wants to be in the snow.
1:01:04 Sundays for Dogs meets or surpasses industry standards using high-quality ingredients.
1:01:05 That’s the focus.
1:01:09 Not through synthetic vitamins, which is what most other dog food companies do.
1:01:14 Sundays knows your pup is an important member of your family, so they only use USDA-grade meat,
1:01:16 which is fit for human consumption.
1:01:17 So, check it out.
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1:01:25 Go to sundaysfordogs.com slash Tim, or use code Tim at checkout.
1:01:34 That’s S-U-N-D-A-Y-S-F-O-R-D-O-G-S dot com slash Tim, sundaysfordogs.com slash Tim.
1:01:41 I am always on the hunt for protein sources that don’t require sacrifices in taste or nutrition.
1:01:42 I don’t want to eat sawdust.
1:01:45 I also don’t want a candy bar that’s disguised as a protein bar.
1:01:49 And that’s why I love the protein bars from today’s sponsor, David.
1:01:52 They are my go-to protein source on the run.
1:01:56 I throw them in my bag whenever I am in doubt that I might be able to get a good source of protein.
1:02:00 And with David Protein Bars, you get the fewest calories for the most protein ever.
1:02:06 David has 28 grams of protein, 150 calories, and zero grams of sugar.
1:02:12 I was actually first introduced to them by my friend Peter Atiyah, MD, who is their chief science officer.
1:02:17 Many of you know Peter, and he really does his due diligence on everything.
1:02:19 And on top of that, David tastes great.
1:02:21 Their bars come in six delicious flavors.
1:02:22 They are all worth trying.
1:02:27 And as I mentioned before, I will grab a few of those from running out the door if I think
1:02:31 I might end up in a situation where I can’t get sufficient protein.
1:02:32 And why is that important?
1:02:37 Well, adequate protein intake is critical for building and preserving muscle mass, especially
1:02:38 as we age.
1:02:44 And one of the biggest things that you want to pay attention to is counteracting sarcopenia,
1:02:45 age-related muscle loss.
1:02:47 And for that, you need enough protein.
1:02:49 When in doubt, up your protein.
1:02:52 Protein is also the most satiating macronutrient.
1:02:53 What does that mean?
1:02:58 It means that protein, out of carbohydrates, fat, and protein, inhibits your appetite while
1:03:02 also feeding all the things you want to feed, which helps you consume fewer calories throughout
1:03:02 the day.
1:03:04 You’re less inclined to eat garbage.
1:03:08 All of that contributes to fat loss and reducing the risk of various diseases.
1:03:14 And now, you guys, listeners of The Tim Ferriss Show, who buy four boxes, get a fifth box for free.
1:03:15 You can check it out.
1:03:17 You can also buy one box at a time.
1:03:21 Try them for yourself at davidprotein.com slash Tim.
1:03:22 Learn all about it.
1:03:28 That’s davidprotein.com slash Tim to get a free box with a four-box purchase or simply learn more.
1:03:29 Check it out.
1:03:31 davidprotein.com slash Tim.
Ev Williams is the co-founder of Mozi, a new social network that helps you connect in person with the people you care about. Over the past 25 years, Ev has co-founded several companies that have helped shape the modern internet—including Blogger, Medium, and Twitter. This episode was recorded live at Diggnation, where digg.com was relaunched. Go to digg.com and sign up to get early access when invites go out.
Sponsors:
David Protein Bars 28g of protein, 150 calories, and 0g of sugar: https://davidprotein.com/tim (Buy 4 cartons, get the 5th free.)
Sundays for Dogs ultra-high-quality dog food: https://sundaysfordogs.com/tim (save 50% on your first order)
Wealthfront high-yield cash account: https://Wealthfront.com/Tim (Start earning 4.00% APY on your short-term cash until you’re ready to invest. And when new clients open an account today, you can get an extra fifty-dollar bonus with a deposit of five hundred dollars or more.) Terms apply. Tim Ferriss receives cash compensation from Wealthfront Brokerage, LLC for advertising and holds a non-controlling equity interest in the corporate parent of Wealthfront Brokerage. See full disclosures here.
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