AI transcript
0:00:06 Will the VP debate move the needle in what’s shaping up to be a neck-and-neck election?
0:00:09 You never know in advance what will be the thing that matters and the thing that doesn’t
0:00:10 matter.
0:00:18 But Donald Trump will be almost 80, and J.D. Vance will be one cheeseburger away from
0:00:20 the presidency should they win.
0:00:25 I’m Preet Bharara, and this week, The Atlantic magazine’s David Frum joins me on my podcast
0:00:29 Stay Tuned with Preet to break down what happened at the debate.
0:00:31 The episode is out now.
0:00:35 Search and follow Stay Tuned with Preet wherever you get your podcasts.
0:00:36 Hi, everyone.
0:00:43 I’m Brené Brown, and I’d love to tell you about a new series that’s launching on Unlocking
0:00:44 Us.
0:00:47 I’m calling it the On My Heart and Mind Podcast series.
0:00:50 It’s going to include conversations with some of my favorite writers on topics ranging
0:00:55 from revolutionary love and gun ownership to menopause and finding joy and grief.
0:00:58 The first episode is available now, and I can’t wait for you to hear it.
0:01:01 All new episodes will drop on Wednesdays, and you can get them as soon as they’re out
0:01:06 by following Unlocking Us on Apple or wherever you listen to your podcasts.
0:01:10 Scott, how much time do you think you spend on TikTok every day?
0:01:16 I spend probably 10 minutes a day, maybe 15 on TikTok, 10 or 15.
0:01:19 I’m spending more time on Reels.
0:01:23 I think Reels has done a really good job.
0:01:25 There’s a lot that worries me about TikTok, but I really enjoyed it.
0:01:26 I think it’s amazing.
0:01:33 I would say I spend 15 minutes a day arguing with my son to get off his phone where he’s
0:01:36 on TikTok.
0:01:39 My son will go into the bathroom, and then I’ll look around 20 minutes later, and he’s
0:01:43 still in the bathroom, and I know he’s on TikTok, and I’ll bang on the door, and I’ll
0:01:49 be like, “Privacy,” and I’m like, “No, start masturbating, but put down the TikTok.”
0:01:52 So my kids go into the bathroom so they can go on TikTok.
0:01:56 I wish that, you know, anyways, not like a good teenage boy should be doing, not like
0:01:58 a healthy teenage boy.
0:01:59 Anyways.
0:02:00 How much time do you think they’re spending?
0:02:06 Too much.
0:02:11 Welcome to First Time Founders, 1.6 billion.
0:02:18 That’s how many people use TikTok today, with an average daily viewing time of 90 minutes.
0:02:23 TikTok has become one of the most powerful platforms in entertainment, and with the rise
0:02:29 of short form content has come the decline of the traditional film and TV industry since
0:02:34 the pandemic, one in five moviegoers has disappeared.
0:02:39 My next guest decided to take advantage of this shift by creating a production studio
0:02:43 that makes television on TikTok.
0:02:49 After launching in 2023, this founder raised venture funding at a $7.5 million valuation,
0:02:56 and with over 400 million views across multiple successful TikTok shows, he is well on his
0:03:00 way to changing how and where we watch television.
0:03:07 This is my conversation with Adam Faiz, the head coach and co-founder of Gymnasium.
0:03:11 Adam, thank you for joining me.
0:03:12 Thank you for having me.
0:03:16 Let’s start with a couple of stats, and I’m just going to get your reaction to it.
0:03:22 Since 2022, film and TV production in the US has fallen 40%.
0:03:28 In the past decade, ticket sales for movies have fallen 40%.
0:03:34 The unemployment rate in Hollywood is currently three times the national average, it’s 12.5%.
0:03:38 And I’m going to give you a few different stats, which is that the average TikTok user
0:03:42 spends over an hour on TikTok every day.
0:03:50 The TikTok user base since 2018 has six Xs, and crucially 70% of Gen Z say that if given
0:03:55 the choice, they would choose TikTok over any other streaming platform.
0:04:00 So my first question to you is, is TikTok killing Hollywood?
0:04:06 Yes, but I would also say that Hollywood’s killing Hollywood, and I say that as someone
0:04:10 that worked in it for eight years, the reality is I’m one of those people in the last stat
0:04:11 you mentioned.
0:04:14 I would choose TikTok over any streaming platform I just would.
0:04:18 I worked in traditional Hollywood studios my whole life, I worked for producers my whole
0:04:24 life, and the reality is it’s too big, too bloated, and too slow to ever make an impact
0:04:25 in this generation.
0:04:28 And when any kid out there with an iPhone and a microphone in their pocket can create
0:04:32 something on a whim and post it within a matter of hours, you’re just not going to compete
0:04:36 with that speed, and that’s what we’re trying to do with Gymnasium.
0:04:38 So give us the story on Gymnasium.
0:04:39 What is it actually doing?
0:04:46 And just a little highlight here, you have accumulated over 400 million views on TikTok
0:04:50 just from creating your own content, from basically treating TikTok like TV.
0:04:52 Tell us about Gymnasium.
0:04:53 What does the business do?
0:04:57 We really think that Shoreform content is the closest thing we have to the TV that you
0:04:58 and I grew up watching.
0:05:03 And so in our minds, Gymnasium is going to create the next generation of TV show hits.
0:05:06 We create things that look and feel like TV.
0:05:10 These are mostly unscripted formats that are mostly comedic, usually with rising talent.
0:05:14 Our biggest show is called Boy Room, and it’s where this girl investigates how disgusting
0:05:17 men’s bedrooms are and then gives advice on how to make them better.
0:05:21 Levi seems to care about having a nice room, but then leaves piles of dirty laundry and
0:05:23 like seven dirty dishes.
0:05:27 The coolest part about all of this is you can hear an idea that you think is really
0:05:28 good.
0:05:29 You can go and shoot a pilot within a week.
0:05:31 Let’s say it’s good enough to go shoot a few more episodes.
0:05:35 You’ll know pretty quickly, usually within the first four or five episodes, if the audience
0:05:37 actually wants this show or not.
0:05:41 And so the time it takes for us to know if we should, you know, continue on with the
0:05:45 show or cancel it is probably the same amount of time it takes for Hollywood to set a pitch
0:05:46 meeting.
0:05:49 And this all kind of started because of the feelings I had in traditional.
0:05:52 I was really frustrated with not being able to sell any formats.
0:05:56 I was frustrated with the development timelines, even when I was just working on the other
0:05:57 side of the aisle at a studio.
0:06:01 And at the same time, during the pandemic, I became addicted to TikTok.
0:06:03 I just did.
0:06:06 And I saw that the more I was using TikTok, the less I was watching TV.
0:06:10 And so there was like that light bulb moment of like, if that’s me, and I grew up being
0:06:14 the most obsessed with movies and TV shows kid, you could possibly find.
0:06:16 And I’m in my mid-20s at that point.
0:06:18 Anyone younger than me, this is just TV and we’re cooked.
0:06:23 And I remember going into my boss the next day and just being like, he was like, what’s
0:06:24 wrong?
0:06:25 Respectfully you are cooked.
0:06:26 So we sit down.
0:06:27 He’s like, what’s wrong?
0:06:28 And I’m like, I don’t know what we’re doing here.
0:06:29 He’s like, what do you mean?
0:06:33 I’m like, we’re arguing over what $100 million movie we should make that will come out five
0:06:38 years from now if we’re lucky that maybe 20 people on Brentwood think is like riveting.
0:06:40 But at the end of the day, like it is not the center of culture that made us go in this
0:06:41 industry in the first place.
0:06:44 Like that center of culture is now this thing right here.
0:06:46 And at that point, it was also a scary feeling for me.
0:06:48 I had never made digital content before.
0:06:50 I’d never even posted a TikTok myself.
0:06:53 And so all I had was there was an opportunity to move to New York to work for this Web
0:06:55 3 startup.
0:07:00 And they had enough sort of VC capital to take a bet on me believing that like, let’s
0:07:02 go see what happens if you go make TV shows for TikTok.
0:07:05 So they gave me like a modest budget of 25 grand.
0:07:06 Let me get that.
0:07:07 I didn’t know this.
0:07:09 So you go to work for a crypto company.
0:07:10 I did.
0:07:11 Unfortunately.
0:07:12 They have too much money.
0:07:13 And they say, and you want to make movies.
0:07:16 So you use the crypto money to make movies.
0:07:17 I’ll back up in further.
0:07:18 So this company.
0:07:19 This is what the crypto industry comes in.
0:07:20 I know.
0:07:21 I know.
0:07:22 And by the way, I will say I was never a crypto person.
0:07:23 I’m still not a crypto person.
0:07:26 But there was a time where I thought maybe I was the dumb one in the room.
0:07:31 And then I realized now I was actually had some sanity, but this company had essentially
0:07:34 sold a half a million dollars worth of NFTs to come make a dating show.
0:07:36 And they had never made a show before in their entire lives.
0:07:39 And so somehow I get connected with them and they’re like, Hey, would you want to come
0:07:42 to move to New York for a few months and come like produce this dating show?
0:07:46 The idea was if you owned an NFT, you could like vote in the bachelor, bachelor in each
0:07:47 episode.
0:07:48 Right.
0:07:49 And we go and make the show.
0:07:50 We spend half a million dollars making it.
0:07:56 And parts of it were so unsuccessful, which was like online, I think in its entire run
0:08:00 we had something like 15,000 views on YouTube, like literally nothing.
0:08:04 But we did do these like fun in-person premieres every Sunday where we’d have like a live audience.
0:08:07 They’d watch the episode and we’d go straight into a live talk show afterwards with like
0:08:10 all the guests from that episode and like celebrity guest judges, whatever.
0:08:14 That part grew from like 200 people the first week to selling out Webster Hall five weeks
0:08:16 later with a thousand people in the audience.
0:08:20 And so there was clearly like something like, okay, like this is reminding people of like
0:08:25 the old days of TRL or SNL and like it’s messy, but maybe people liked the mess.
0:08:29 But my biggest frustration was like, I just came to digital and blew half a million dollars
0:08:33 through, you know, I think that 15,000 people watching, that’s not what I came to the space
0:08:34 to do.
0:08:39 And so at that point I sat down with the founders of the company and just said, look, it’s TikTok.
0:08:41 This is the thing that I use every single day.
0:08:44 This is the thing that I think we can generate IP from scratch on.
0:08:48 Just give me a budget of like 25 grand and let’s just go see what happens.
0:08:52 And so they said, yes, and I started sitting down with the people that I thought were really
0:08:57 great talent at that point, the first of which being Karim Rama, who now hosts Subway takes.
0:08:58 Yeah.
0:09:01 He’s like, I have this one idea that I pitched to every network and streamer for five years
0:09:02 and no one’s wanted it.
0:09:03 I was like, what is it?
0:09:06 He’s like, I want to hail a cab in New York and I want to tell the driver to take me to
0:09:09 their favorite place in the city and keep the meter running.
0:09:12 I was like, that’s a phenomenal fucking idea for a show.
0:09:15 Two days later, we’re standing on Delancey, we’re like trying to hail a cab.
0:09:19 Each cab is just passing by, they’re like freaked out from the cameras until this one
0:09:22 guy pulls up and he’s like, you want to pay me $300, I’ll be in your show.
0:09:26 And he takes us to Jackson Heights, we eat Pakistani food with him.
0:09:28 And you could tell when you’re filming it, you’re like, this is like a magical moment.
0:09:30 This feels like Bourdain.
0:09:31 We end up cutting it down.
0:09:35 We post it on account with zero followers three days later.
0:09:37 Taxi.
0:09:40 Take me to your favorite place and keep the meter running.
0:09:42 Where do you want to go?
0:09:43 Wherever you want to go.
0:09:47 Next morning, Kareem walks into a Bourdain guy and someone comes up to him and is like,
0:09:48 I fucking love your show, man.
0:09:51 And he’s like, wait, who are you talking to?
0:09:52 Who are you talking to?
0:09:56 And Kareem pulls out his phone and that one episode that was posted on account with zero
0:09:58 followers had over a million and a half views.
0:09:59 Unbelievable.
0:10:02 And what we saw in the back end was 98% of that audience at that point was in New York
0:10:03 City.
0:10:08 So it’s like overnight, he had become a celebrity in the city with a basically local television
0:10:09 show that we had produced.
0:10:12 That show went on to have over a hundred million views on its own.
0:10:13 It traveled to London.
0:10:14 It traveled to Miami.
0:10:16 It traveled to Egypt.
0:10:21 And I think that really set the stage for what we saw as like this much bigger vision.
0:10:26 And so based on the success of that show, I was sort of sitting there being like, look,
0:10:28 my passion is being a producer.
0:10:29 It’s not working for a crypto company.
0:10:33 And at the end of the day, I do think there’s a world where the next great television studio
0:10:36 is going to be made right here on this platform.
0:10:38 The biggest question is just, how are you going to make money doing that?
0:10:40 Because this platform will not pay you.
0:10:41 Are you making money?
0:10:42 That’s my question.
0:10:43 Yes.
0:10:46 And what I would say is like, it still is the wild, wild West, but we’re trying to be
0:10:50 a lot smarter about the shows we produce to sort of like make sure that we can make money
0:10:52 off of these things.
0:10:56 The reality of the situation is like, I think Hollywood is going to start facing a lesson
0:10:59 that the music industry learned 20 years ago, which is that the content itself is not
0:11:01 going to be the thing that makes money anymore.
0:11:05 And so for us, assuming that we’re going to make zero dollars from any platform that
0:11:08 we’re on, we focus on sort of like two angles.
0:11:10 One is brand integration into our content.
0:11:13 And the other is seeing if the show that we’re producing might actually generate a brand
0:11:14 to come out of.
0:11:19 And so what I mean by that is like, on Boy Room, our biggest show right now, the reason
0:11:23 we love that idea so much wasn’t just because Rachel Coster is the funniest person we never
0:11:28 met, but we really thought if we can make this a viral show, there’s a home renovation
0:11:29 component to this.
0:11:33 And maybe we can convince like an e-commerce giant to come in and partner with us in the
0:11:36 next season of the show to start renovating men’s bedrooms.
0:11:40 That show blew up in a way that we had never experienced before.
0:11:43 It got more press attention than any show we’ve ever worked on.
0:11:47 And again, Rachel was someone who had 3,000 followers on Instagram when we found her and
0:11:52 now cannot walk down the street in New York anymore without being accosted for photos.
0:11:56 We started talking to these e-commerce giants pretty quickly as the press started picking
0:12:00 up being like, “Guys, we have this bigger vision for the show and can we convince you
0:12:03 to buy into this thing that no one’s really ever done before?”
0:12:07 And after months of negotiating with a few of these companies, we just closed a massive
0:12:11 deal around the next season of the show where we are going to be able to actually start renovating
0:12:17 these men’s bedrooms in New York and LA with furniture from this platform.
0:12:19 And so that’s like a first of its kind thing.
0:12:23 And I think there will be trials and errors as we continue to go here, but I will say
0:12:28 in talking with these brands, they’re for the first time realizing like we’re pulling
0:12:30 spending on TV.
0:12:34 We like sponsoring influencers, but it’s not that great of a business for us.
0:12:39 And so like we need to find more of a mainstay home for where we can put our brand.
0:12:41 And the reality is like shows are a safer bet.
0:12:44 Presumably, you’re taking 100% of the advertising dollars, right?
0:12:48 If you’re creating those direct relationships, which is great.
0:12:53 How does it compare to YouTube because, you know, YouTube, you can make money.
0:12:54 YouTube pays you.
0:12:56 TikTok doesn’t pay, there’s no pay.
0:13:00 Of those 400 million views we’ve gotten, I think we’ve probably been paid maybe like
0:13:02 $15,000 from TikTok.
0:13:03 So like it’s just not even.
0:13:06 So TikTok is paying you, but they’re just paying you a terrible, wow, okay, I didn’t realize
0:13:07 that.
0:13:09 So how are all these TikTokers, like how are the…
0:13:10 It’s all brand sponsorship.
0:13:15 I mean, I think I just read a stat today that said something like influencers made $1 billion
0:13:19 off of platform revenue this year, but they made $8 billion from sponsorship.
0:13:22 So like clearly there’s just a lot more money from sponsorship.
0:13:23 Yeah.
0:13:25 Exactly the way you should be doing it, right?
0:13:29 So let’s just talk a little bit more about TikTok versus Hollywood.
0:13:34 One thing that I find interesting is this idea of decision fatigue.
0:13:41 Netflix watches, people who watch Netflix spend 78 hours per year deciding what to watch.
0:13:47 So talk to us about how your view on decision fatigue, how does decision fatigue play into
0:13:48 the rise of TikTok today?
0:13:52 I mean, the reality is like, I think that’s where original TV was better in some ways.
0:13:55 You could just scroll the channels and like you’re eventually going to find something
0:13:56 that you want.
0:13:58 And I think that is what TikTok is tapping into.
0:14:03 If I have an hour to spare and I am on my couch, I’m going to go on TikTok.
0:14:06 I’m not going to open Netflix and do the 78 hours per year of scrolling.
0:14:09 It’s just, I know I’m not going to find the thing that I want to watch.
0:14:12 And so I think that that’s the thing, like these platforms are so personalized to what
0:14:16 your interests are at this point that you’re more likely to be entertained.
0:14:20 And that is where at the end of the day, like, look, our content is on every platform.
0:14:24 We want to be wherever you are because we don’t know what platform you’re on.
0:14:28 But I do think TikTok is the best player in the space only because the consumer habit
0:14:30 that makes you open it is I want to watch entertainment.
0:14:32 It’s not, I want to watch things from my friends.
0:14:34 It’s not, I want to talk to my friends.
0:14:35 It’s literally, I want to be entertained.
0:14:36 And that is what TV is.
0:14:37 Yeah.
0:14:41 There’s this other great start, which is that 43% of TikTok users say that they use TikTok
0:14:44 for quote, mindless entertainment.
0:14:50 How do you as a TikTok production company grapple with that?
0:14:54 How do you grapple with the fact that you want to create content that is ultimately supposed
0:14:56 to be mindless or is it supposed to be something else?
0:15:01 I mean, the thing that I think about the most is like for every person that goes on TikTok,
0:15:04 you’re probably consuming about 200 videos in that session.
0:15:10 And that includes everything from like a funny meme to some horrifying news around the world
0:15:13 to, you know, someone doing a dance to a music video.
0:15:14 Like it’s just like, it’s so different.
0:15:18 And so it’s like, how do you create that concept that sticks out so much?
0:15:21 And then you watch that one episode and you’re like, give me 500 more of these.
0:15:23 And that is kind of what we strive for.
0:15:27 So like everything we’ve ever made is very much like a format where you can kind of plug
0:15:32 and play every episode is a little bit different of the same thing just so that you can go
0:15:33 and binge.
0:15:36 And what we’ve heard from our fans is like, even on a show like keep the meter running,
0:15:40 I have friends who found that show after episode 50 and they end up spending two hours in bed
0:15:43 binging every episode, but in backwards.
0:15:46 And so I think like that is what we strive for in any show that we make.
0:15:51 And it does just mean looking back a little bit to like the early 2000s of cable TV formats
0:15:52 for inspiration.
0:15:54 So what do you think is the secret source then?
0:15:59 I kind of think of you as like the king of virality when it comes to TikTok and short
0:16:00 form content.
0:16:02 What makes a show great?
0:16:08 Why when Rachel said, I want to look at boys discussing rooms, what was so compelling about
0:16:09 that as an idea?
0:16:10 I mean, it’s really, it’s simple.
0:16:11 It’s two things.
0:16:13 You have to have the best talent.
0:16:15 You really just have to have a star.
0:16:19 And they’re not easy to find, but when you find them, that’s what makes this thing perform
0:16:20 the best.
0:16:22 The other is you have to have a format that you can’t look away from.
0:16:27 When you’re watching the opening frame of Boy Room and it’s some disgusting men’s bedrooms
0:16:30 and Philly without a door, you’re going to keep watching.
0:16:34 And thankfully Rachel can carry it to the end because like you now love her as a host.
0:16:38 When Kareem gets in a cab and he tells the driver, take me to a fair place and keep the
0:16:40 meter running, you’re not going to stop watching.
0:16:43 Like there’s a party that’s like, I want to ask that question to a cab driver.
0:16:46 And so it really is those two factors.
0:16:51 And the reality is like we try so many different pilots internally and kill so many shows because
0:16:53 it doesn’t get to that point.
0:16:57 We even just made a show called Bodega Run that we only did, I think the 10 or 11 episodes
0:17:02 of and we canceled it because look, the first three episodes actually got a combined like
0:17:06 30 million views across YouTube and TikTok combined.
0:17:08 We didn’t want to watch it.
0:17:12 Like it would come on my feet and I would scroll and the last six episodes, I think
0:17:15 we were representative of that because it had to combine like 200,000 views and it’s
0:17:17 like clearly there’s not a consistency here.
0:17:19 You don’t want to watch a hundred episodes.
0:17:20 And what was the premise of Bodega Run?
0:17:23 It’s kind of like our version of supermarket sweep.
0:17:27 It was like we would go to real life Bodegas, we’d find someone outside, we’d say you have
0:17:31 60 seconds, go find these three items and check out and if you do, we’ll give you $100.
0:17:33 And they had these like GoPros attached to their heads.
0:17:37 It was like very much like 360 camera looking at what they’re looking at and we had cameras
0:17:39 that would go into the Bodegas.
0:17:46 And it was funny.
0:17:47 But it wasn’t a hit show.
0:17:51 It just didn’t have that quality of a really amazing format.
0:17:55 And so I think game shows are the space that we’d like to be in, but it’s a little tougher
0:17:58 to crack and have that thing that’s like perfect.
0:18:03 Whereas diving into a certain world and crafting a format around that is always going to be
0:18:06 more fun for us.
0:18:23 We’ll be right back.
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0:20:38 We’re back with First Time Founders.
0:20:40 You worked in Hollywood.
0:20:44 You were a fan of TV shows and movies and it kind of feels like what’s sort of happening
0:20:53 with the entertainment space is the virtues of long form, which is basically the virtues
0:20:54 of narrative.
0:20:58 It feels like narrative has basically been thrown away that someone who can write a great
0:21:02 story with a beginning, middle and an end actually isn’t useful anymore.
0:21:06 What matters most is basically just the premise.
0:21:11 It’s like, can your first sentence be interesting and that’s all that matters.
0:21:13 Do you feel like that’s kind of what’s happening to entertainment?
0:21:18 Yes, and to correct one thing just because I don’t want to be destroyed by the people
0:21:20 I do look up to in Hollywood still.
0:21:23 I don’t think movies and TV shows are going away forever.
0:21:25 I think that we’re going to watch far fewer of them.
0:21:29 I do think that means that the ones you do watch become that much more impactful.
0:21:34 By the way, that’s what the market is telling us because the top movies are taking all of
0:21:35 the revenue now.
0:21:38 And when you do have a moment like Barbier, Oppenheimer, it’s like, yeah, everyone around
0:21:39 the world watched that movie.
0:21:42 That is a huge impact on society.
0:21:45 And so I’m not dooming and glooming in that sense, but I am saying that like the old days
0:21:49 of spending three hours flipping channels your TV are completely gone.
0:21:52 You’re going to watch TV for sports, you’re going to watch it for like the big hyped up
0:21:55 Netflix show that everyone’s talking about, but otherwise you’re going to be on your
0:21:56 phone.
0:22:00 And so on the like first three seconds at all, it is super important.
0:22:02 You do need to have a really interesting premise.
0:22:05 I think there’s people that have different interpretations of what that means.
0:22:08 I think there’s the side of Mr. Beast that’s like, don’t stop watching.
0:22:13 We’re going to blow up a school bus and like, okay, I’ll watch fine, but I think we’re trying
0:22:16 to do something completely different, which is just like, what’s a really fun idea of
0:22:20 just again, a world that you want to be in while you’re in bed?
0:22:23 Only I’ve noted, I mean, you mentioned that most of your shows are unscripted, all of
0:22:24 them are unscripted.
0:22:25 All of them are unscripted.
0:22:26 All of them.
0:22:32 It feels like the TikTok YouTube sort of creator economy trend is in the unscripted
0:22:33 direction.
0:22:39 I can’t really think of anyone on these platforms who’s creating really popular scripted content.
0:22:40 Why do you think that is?
0:22:43 Why, why are the winners here doing unscripted?
0:22:46 Look, there’s two sides where scripted comes into play.
0:22:49 There’s sketch comedy and some of these sketch comedy groups like please don’t destroy and
0:22:51 it becoming sort of the stars of SNL.
0:22:55 The other side is there’s actually a really amazing generation of young horror filmmakers
0:22:59 who I think are like, are generations James Wands, who every single day are putting out
0:23:03 some of the scariest fucking things I’ve ever seen in my entire life.
0:23:06 Those people will be using these platforms to become the next generation of filmmakers.
0:23:11 I think why you don’t see more like dramas or sort of another side of the scripted narrative
0:23:13 part, is it just more expensive?
0:23:16 Like as soon as you have a script, you need actors, as soon as you have actors, you need
0:23:19 makeup, then you need props, you need a set, you need lighting, and then you need a grip
0:23:23 and a gaffer, and then you kind of end up being stuck in the same situation.
0:23:28 And so I think it is the low budget formats that are going to thrive the most on these
0:23:29 platforms.
0:23:33 And if you look at just traditional Hollywood, the low budget genres have always been unscripted
0:23:34 in horror.
0:23:38 It sounds like we don’t care that much about quality anymore because the experience is
0:23:41 only going to last 30 seconds and you can just scroll.
0:23:44 And that’s where I think I was always taught as a young person who made a bunch of short
0:23:49 films is like, don’t think that you need an Ari Alexa, think that you need a good script
0:23:53 and that you do need good audio, that’s the one thing you really do need.
0:23:56 But otherwise, like no one cares what camera you film this thing on.
0:24:00 And the other thing is we’re dealing with a generation of kids who have consumed advertisements
0:24:02 since the day they were born.
0:24:05 And so I actually think at this point, when they see an Ari Alexa filmed piece of content
0:24:09 on their feed, they think it’s an ad and they want to scroll immediately.
0:24:13 We shoot everything we do on Sony FX3s, it’s like the perfect balance of looking like it
0:24:17 was made for you while still feeling professional.
0:24:19 And so like when you do scroll up on one of our shows.
0:24:24 But what do you mean by looking like it was made for you, like sort of looking at casual?
0:24:27 It still feels like it fits on the platform.
0:24:30 It doesn’t feel like, oh, this person spent a million dollars and is trying to fit in.
0:24:34 It’s like, okay, this was like just low-fi enough where it still makes sense here, but
0:24:37 it’s high-fi enough where it’s not just like an iPhone video.
0:24:41 And I think that’s probably the camera we’re going to continue to film our content on forever
0:24:43 in the short film space.
0:24:44 Why is that important?
0:24:48 This is something I’ve been finding really interesting about our generation where we
0:24:58 have sort of this weird obsession with authenticity and we’re extremely sensitive to bullshit.
0:25:02 I think because we’ve consumed so many ads, I mean, the number is we consume 300 ads per
0:25:06 hour, which is up tenfold from what our parents were experiencing.
0:25:12 So it does feel that we are extremely sensitive or we can just sort of sniff ads out out of
0:25:14 nowhere.
0:25:18 But what you’re describing is interesting because you’re kind of saying we are intentionally
0:25:23 making it low production to make it sort of look more authentic, perhaps, than it actually
0:25:24 is.
0:25:25 Take us through what you’re…
0:25:28 What I would also say, it’s a cost thing too.
0:25:33 Shooting on these Sony FX3 is like, my sets have never been more than three people, you
0:25:36 know, and so you have two people both holding the cameras that also have the microphones
0:25:37 on them.
0:25:38 And you have a host and a producer.
0:25:39 Like, that’s what our crew looks like.
0:25:43 And if I had an Ari Alexa, I would need a DP, I would need lighting, I would need a
0:25:44 grip and a gaffer.
0:25:48 And like, the reality is spending all that money is not going to make a better piece
0:25:49 of content on these platforms.
0:25:53 So it’s both something that I think performs better on the platform, but it’s also what
0:25:54 allows our business model to work.
0:25:59 Like, to put it simply, Season 1 and Boy Room, we produced 22 episodes, only 14 of which
0:26:00 came out.
0:26:04 Some of the guys just either weren’t messy enough or like were pretending to be messy
0:26:05 and we threw those episodes out.
0:26:10 But of those 22 episodes that we shot, the entire thing cost us $48,000.
0:26:11 That’s impossible.
0:26:14 That’s a coffee budget on an HBO show.
0:26:20 And so like, again, it’s like, but then we found the market fit, right?
0:26:23 Like we know now that Boy Room is a hit show and there’s a world where that does turn into
0:26:24 a TV show at some point.
0:26:28 And like, this kind of turns into the comic book model where it’s like, we can go generate
0:26:32 IP at a fraction of the cost of Hollywood and then decide what we want to do with it.
0:26:35 I think there’s a version where some of our shows turn into just 18 to 20 minute YouTube
0:26:36 shows.
0:26:38 I think there’s another world where some of them turn into TV shows.
0:26:42 But at the end of the day, it is creating IP at a fraction of the cost.
0:26:46 One of your investors is kind of peak Hollywood.
0:26:51 That is Jeremy Zimmer, who’s the CEO of UTA, which is basically one of the biggest entertainment
0:26:55 talented agencies in the world.
0:26:56 What does he think of you?
0:26:58 But more generally, what does Hollywood think?
0:26:59 Have people come up to you?
0:27:00 Do they like you?
0:27:01 Are they scared of you?
0:27:04 It’s a combination of all of them.
0:27:08 And I was so honored that Jeremy wanted to be in the round.
0:27:12 He’s become a close friend and it’s been really nice to be able to call on him and take his
0:27:13 brain.
0:27:18 I think the older generation of entertainment sees the rising tide and knows to start looking
0:27:20 at where things are going.
0:27:24 I also think the older generation have kids old enough to recognize their viewing habits
0:27:27 have changed and can actually be a witness to the fact of like, oh, we’re fucked.
0:27:29 They have to experience it themselves.
0:27:33 Whereas like the 30-something-year-old creative executive who grew up in a different industry
0:27:38 who’s hoping to still have their big Oscar moment, they hate me and they hate TikTok
0:27:39 and they hate the platform.
0:27:43 And you can see it anytime there’s any article in anything we produce, all the comments are
0:27:45 like, can we just ban this thing already?
0:27:46 I hate this thing.
0:27:49 And it’s like, I wish they would just download TikTok because I know they would have actually
0:27:53 the greatest time of all time and then they would start agreeing with it.
0:27:56 The other thing is like, we’re not supposed to be competition.
0:27:57 Come on in.
0:27:58 The water is warm.
0:28:01 The history of television can be recreated on this platform and it’s not going to be
0:28:03 done by just one studio.
0:28:06 You mentioned, can we ban this thing already?
0:28:07 TikTok might get banned.
0:28:09 What do you think of that?
0:28:11 It’s a touchy subject.
0:28:16 What I will say is I think you can’t put the short form content thing back in the hat.
0:28:19 I think we love consuming content this way.
0:28:23 And so if it were to go away tomorrow, I think some of that viewership would go to Instagram
0:28:24 Reels.
0:28:27 I think some would go to YouTube Shorts, although I think YouTube is afraid of shorts
0:28:31 a little bit because it cannibalizes what’s an amazing business for them, which is longer
0:28:32 form content.
0:28:37 I think there’s probably space for a new app to come in only because of what I said earlier,
0:28:42 which is like that consumer habit about TikTok of just opening it to consume content is not
0:28:43 the same on Instagram.
0:28:48 Instagram, I’m going on first to see my DMs, look at my stories, see things from my friends.
0:28:52 And then maybe I’ll get stuck in like a brain rot, you know, Reels feed.
0:28:54 But it’s not the thing that I’m going on Instagram for.
0:28:57 So I just think you can’t put this thing back in the bag.
0:29:00 And for us, like we’re going to continue to be on every single platform that’s available
0:29:03 because we think that we’re going to forever have the best content on that platform.
0:29:10 I’d like to get into Instagram Reels, 730 million active users on Instagram Reels.
0:29:14 So it’s sort of, it’s still behind TikTok, which is at 1.6 billion, but it’s definitely
0:29:15 catching up.
0:29:20 Breakdown for us, why you think that’s an important distinction that Instagram Reels
0:29:26 is a component of the Instagram experience versus the entire product.
0:29:31 Why do you think that makes it so substantially different from TikTok?
0:29:35 It’s almost too social, you know, and I think the thing that’s so magical at TikTok is like,
0:29:38 again, I actually don’t want to see content from my friends because they probably don’t
0:29:39 make good videos.
0:29:40 Right.
0:29:43 And when I’m like watching a funny video on TikTok from a stranger, the first thing I
0:29:46 do is open the comments and like I read other funny comments and like that’s my experience.
0:29:49 Like I don’t need to have my friends be on that platform.
0:29:51 With Instagram, it’s tricky.
0:29:54 I think there’s so many distractions on the platform because you have incoming DMs and
0:29:59 you want to see posts from your friends that longer form content, like just kind of suffers
0:30:00 on the platform.
0:30:03 I will say like Boy Room does pretty amazingly on Reels.
0:30:07 We get anywhere from half a million to a million viewers an episode on the platform.
0:30:09 So like, still really happy with it.
0:30:13 But I think like when I open my Reels tab, the average length of the video that I would
0:30:17 say it shows me is probably around 20 seconds long and almost all of them are memes.
0:30:22 And that works really well for the platform because the entire point of Reels on Instagram
0:30:25 is they want to show you content that you’re going to send to your friends because that
0:30:28 makes them watch the content and like you’re more likely to send a meme to your friend
0:30:30 than maybe an episode of a show.
0:30:32 So I’m excited to see how they change that.
0:30:36 I’ve heard rumors that they want to do longer form content and start prioritizing that in
0:30:37 the algorithm.
0:30:39 I hope they do.
0:30:42 And we’re just going to continue posting there until that happens.
0:30:46 But the only difference for us as well is like on Instagram Reels, in order to be in
0:30:49 the algorithm, your content has to be under 90 seconds long.
0:30:53 Sometimes our TikTok content will be two and a half, three, three and a half minutes long.
0:30:58 And so we end up cutting our content differently based on the platform we’re posting it to.
0:31:02 How have you found sort of grappling with the algorithm?
0:31:08 I feel like that’s another huge part of this because in Hollywood, it used to be that the
0:31:11 barrier to entry was could you get past the executives?
0:31:14 Did the guy in the room like you?
0:31:18 And it’s now at a point where it’s does the algorithm like you?
0:31:23 And in a lot of ways that makes things easier because it means that you can just sort of
0:31:28 pull yourself up by your bootstraps and just get involved immediately at very low costs.
0:31:30 But also you don’t even know what they want.
0:31:32 We don’t know how the algorithm works.
0:31:35 It’s this sort of mythical beast that we can’t truly understand.
0:31:37 You’ve kind of cracked it though.
0:31:39 What is the algorithm want?
0:31:40 Good shit.
0:31:46 I’ve never disagreed with what it has made perform for us and what it hasn’t like literally
0:31:47 as a company.
0:31:50 Anytime we’ve posted something that hasn’t performed the next we’ve all been like, yeah,
0:31:52 it kind of sucked.
0:31:53 That was good.
0:31:54 That was pretty shitty.
0:31:56 And I think like bodega run was part of that like by the end of it.
0:32:00 It was just like we didn’t have any heart in the show whatsoever.
0:32:01 And so I don’t know.
0:32:05 That might be my famous last words and the algorithm shifts and all of a sudden I’m fucked.
0:32:08 But I haven’t seen that to be the case yet.
0:32:12 You know, I think it’s really good about testing content in front of an audience until it finds
0:32:14 the audience that will like your content.
0:32:17 You know, I’ll say like a story from Boyd Room.
0:32:22 We posted the first episode on Instagram, gets like 250k views, we’re like, that’s sick.
0:32:25 Posted on TikTok gets 147 views, you’re like, okay.
0:32:29 Post the second episode on Instagram gets 300,000 views.
0:32:31 On TikTok gets like 205 views.
0:32:32 We’re like, what is happening?
0:32:34 This is an amazing show.
0:32:36 Maybe it’s not showing it to people.
0:32:39 I’m starting to have conspiracy theories, I have 18 accounts in my phone, maybe it’s
0:32:40 shadow banning me.
0:32:41 That’s the best.
0:32:43 Everyone thinks that’s shadow ban when their content doesn’t perform.
0:32:46 Yeah, your content just sucks.
0:32:49 But I look in the back end and it’s like, no, it is showing it on the for you page and
0:32:51 I can see when people are dropping off and it’s in the first three seconds.
0:32:53 I’m like, okay, what’s happening in the first three seconds?
0:32:56 And it’s this like loud TV show intro.
0:32:59 Welcome to Boyd Room, the show where we investigate boys’ rooms.
0:33:00 We’re like, okay.
0:33:01 Episode three, no intro.
0:33:04 We’re just going to drop into the show.
0:33:09 That one difference was enough to get 4 million views in 24 hours and over 30,000 followers
0:33:10 on that account.
0:33:11 It’s good.
0:33:12 It knows what it’s doing.
0:33:15 And that change was the right creative call on that show.
0:33:18 And so I think like, again, people think that they have to cater to the algorithm in the
0:33:22 Mr. Beast way and we’re trying to prove that you don’t.
0:33:24 We’ll be right back.
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0:35:57 We’re back with First Time Founders.
0:36:00 You recently went to the DNC.
0:36:01 Why did you do that?
0:36:05 I actually always say that you can track the changes in consumption media through politics
0:36:07 faster than anything else.
0:36:13 I think about Obama going on between two firms in 2011, I want to say, to talk about Obamacare.
0:36:18 I can even remember in 2016 when Trump won, the still remaining importance of the late
0:36:23 night hosts kind of like shedding a tear on stage for America of like, oh my God, Trump
0:36:25 is president.
0:36:30 And you look at it now, and it’s like Trump is going on Aidan Ross, Kamala is giving more
0:36:34 access to creators and influencers than to, you know, the press.
0:36:38 And I think that’s reflective of like where everything’s going because they need the people,
0:36:39 they need the votes.
0:36:41 So they’re going to go where the people are.
0:36:44 And so politics just turns in a much faster rate.
0:36:48 We were at the DNC because we brought city council member, Chio, say, from Bed-San Crown
0:36:53 Heights over there, who is someone that we’ve worked really closely with out of passion.
0:36:57 Really believe in him being a future voice of the Democratic Party.
0:37:03 And we started working with him because last summer, New York’s rent guidelines board was
0:37:06 going to decide how much to increase rent stabilized rents.
0:37:09 And they were debating whether or not to raise it by 16%.
0:37:12 Because post-pandemic, people are struggling, a lot of people are going to be put on the
0:37:14 streets if something like that passes.
0:37:19 And she comes to me and my friend, Peter McIndoo, who started Birds Aren’t Real.
0:37:24 And he says, “I need to get people to this hearing because the people that this policy
0:37:29 will affect don’t know that there’s a hearing on Thursday where they are waiting to hear
0:37:30 testimonies.”
0:37:33 And he’s like, “I have 2,000 followers, I have no idea how to engage, like the greater
0:37:34 New York area.
0:37:35 I think I’m fucked.”
0:37:38 And we’re like, “Don’t worry, we go to his office with just an iPhone.
0:37:43 We script this video that kind of gets that message out in just a perfect, quick, 60-second
0:37:44 way.”
0:37:48 That video gets a million views in 24 hours from New Yorkers.
0:37:55 Three days later, for a room that had a capacity of 250 people, over 1,000 people showed up.
0:37:59 And every single person in line, I have the video, shakes cheese hand and says, “I’m
0:38:01 only here because of your video.”
0:38:06 New York ends up only raising rent stabilized rent by 3%.
0:38:11 So that for us was our first foray ever into politics and figuring out how can we use what
0:38:15 we know about these platforms to help push policy, to help make change around the country
0:38:16 and maybe the world.
0:38:21 And so I think for us, we have a huge interest in just kind of continuing that conversation
0:38:24 and seeing what else we can do in this space.
0:38:28 So do you think politicians are underusing this platform and was that sort of the idea
0:38:32 that you wanted to get the word out to these politicians you need to be on TikTok?
0:38:34 I think there are two politicians that are amazing at TikTok.
0:38:39 I think it’s Congressman Jeff Jackson out of North Carolina and I think it’s GSA.
0:38:40 That’s it.
0:38:42 I think AOC is incredible at using Instagram.
0:38:45 I wish he would call us for TikTok.
0:38:51 It is crazy to me how much every politician is still being led by like social marketing
0:38:55 teams who want them to do these dumb trends and silly sounds and it treats young audiences
0:38:58 specifically as idiots.
0:39:02 People want to be talked to like adults, they want to hear what’s going on in the world.
0:39:05 Congressman Jeff Jackson was a freshman term congressman who just started talking to the
0:39:09 camera as like America’s dad about here’s what’s going on in Congress right now.
0:39:11 He gets an average of like four or five million views a video.
0:39:15 That’s impossible that no freshman congressman has ever had to reach that big.
0:39:16 And so it’s frustrating.
0:39:20 I think it’s like people really think they need to dumb themselves down for people to
0:39:22 like them and the reality is like they just need to be themselves.
0:39:28 What do you think of Brat specifically in his relation to Kamala?
0:39:33 I mean, the reason I bring that up is because it feels very kind of adjacent to the trend
0:39:39 you’re talking about where the social media account of Kamala Harris, it was handed over
0:39:46 to I guess a young person who was a fan of Charlie XCX and sort of associated Brat and
0:39:52 all of that teen meme culture with the Harris campaign and it has exploded.
0:39:58 But it feels in my view very similar to what you have described where it’s kind of these
0:40:04 politicians don’t really understand these meme cultures, but they’re being told by their
0:40:05 younger employees.
0:40:09 You should just do it because people will like it and it’s resonated in a really big
0:40:10 way.
0:40:15 But I don’t think in my view at least it doesn’t seem that genuine to Kamala, but maybe that
0:40:16 doesn’t matter.
0:40:17 What is your view on that whole?
0:40:23 Look, it gets millions of views, it gets millions of likes, it makes everyone on Twitter love
0:40:25 it that lives in New York City and LA.
0:40:30 The reality is this election is 50/50, it’s likely to be decided by a few thousand votes.
0:40:33 Young men have abandoned the Democratic Party.
0:40:36 So it’s all fun and games, but we’re missing the point.
0:40:41 And I think the Democratic Party specifically likes to usually blame this on so many different
0:40:42 factors.
0:40:47 It’s their fault and they are not speaking on the issues that they care about, the people
0:40:48 that matter most.
0:40:53 And so like I cringe the more that we talk about Brat Summer, it was fun for a day and
0:40:57 I loved the meme and I loved all the new excitement when Biden dropped out of the race, but this
0:41:00 is not speaking to those 5,000 votes that will decide this election.
0:41:04 I just want to talk about news as well, similar to what we’re talking about, but 40% of Gen
0:41:11 Z today regularly gets their news from TikTok and that number is up from 9% in 2020.
0:41:14 So TikTok is fast becoming a news platform.
0:41:16 I mean, it is the new TV.
0:41:20 So what are your thoughts on the fact that we’re getting on news from TikTok?
0:41:21 Is that a good thing?
0:41:22 Is it a bad thing?
0:41:23 Where do you stand on this?
0:41:25 I think it can be an amazing thing.
0:41:30 I think again, this is a space that needs more trusted voices, that needs more serious
0:41:34 shows that have like the checks and balances that like ensure the right information is
0:41:35 being said.
0:41:40 My only fear about 40% of people getting their news from TikTok is there’s very little fact
0:41:42 checking on this platform.
0:41:46 And I will see a video that is literal fake news come up in my feed.
0:41:49 And no one leaves the platform when they’re on it.
0:41:53 It’s not like, okay, I saw this video, now let me go on Google and see if this is actually
0:41:54 real or not.
0:41:55 No one’s doing that.
0:41:57 What they do is they click on the comments and the comments likely validate that belief
0:42:01 system because all of a sudden the comments are, I can’t believe this is true.
0:42:02 And it’s like, I guess it’s true.
0:42:03 It’s like, no, this isn’t fucking true.
0:42:04 No part of this is true.
0:42:08 But now this person’s going to repeat it in person as if it is.
0:42:12 And the other thing, which is the sad part of these platforms is like, you are likely
0:42:17 being radicalized by an algorithm that really knows what you like and what you want to see
0:42:19 and you’re not seeing what’s on the other side.
0:42:24 Do you think the algorithm is being engineered by the Chinese government?
0:42:31 All I will say is, I don’t know what to say there, in between a rock and a hard place.
0:42:34 What I will say is I think we are our own worst enemy.
0:42:39 And I think the issue with these algorithms is they actually understand human nature.
0:42:43 And the reality is we like these things.
0:42:45 It’s like Trump didn’t cause any of this.
0:42:48 He was the effect of all of this.
0:42:54 We are in very divisive times because we are really upset with each other.
0:42:56 We’re not really wanting to look at each other in the eyes anymore.
0:43:00 I think that’s the area that I’d like to focus most of my time on.
0:43:01 I love this country.
0:43:03 I think it’s the greatest country on earth.
0:43:08 And I want to get us to a place where we can be across the aisle from each other and still
0:43:11 shake hands and realize we still want the same things.
0:43:13 We just have different approaches.
0:43:17 As we wrap up here, I do want to get a sense of how things work for you.
0:43:21 What does your production process look like?
0:43:25 If someone wants to go out there and produce a TikTok show, what do they do?
0:43:28 I’ll give the boy room example because I think it’s a really fun one.
0:43:32 Rachel came into our office on a Tuesday, she pitched boy room.
0:43:35 That Friday we shot a pilot with my friend Peter that will never see the light of day
0:43:37 because he was very upset with me.
0:43:39 That was enough for us to realize we wanted to go make the show.
0:43:41 The following week we shot three episodes.
0:43:43 The week after that we posted the first two.
0:43:45 So it’s a matter of weeks.
0:43:50 And that for us is significantly longer than the average TikTok user.
0:43:54 Us spending 50K on a season is a fraction of Hollywood.
0:43:56 It’s still more than anyone is spending on this platform.
0:43:59 So you don’t need anything.
0:44:02 All you need is a really good idea and just know how to address your audience a little
0:44:04 bit faster than usual.
0:44:05 And you’ll have a hit.
0:44:08 And I think the thing that I’m really surprised by is I feel like I’ve sort of been shouting
0:44:12 from the rooftops for two years about like this being television, this being the space
0:44:14 to create the next generation of formats.
0:44:17 And I’m kind of shocked at how few people have taken the base.
0:44:18 Yes, exactly.
0:44:21 I was going to ask, are there any competitors that you’re seeing?
0:44:26 There’s a few companies in this space who make really fun, you know, content.
0:44:28 A lot of man on the street stuff.
0:44:32 What I haven’t seen in this space that I think we’re really good at is creating like real
0:44:34 traditional TV show formats.
0:44:40 I think when people start seeing the business that is here, it might be a space that’s flushed
0:44:43 with capital again and having people start these companies.
0:44:47 I welcome it because I think the thing that will help most is having other things to point
0:44:49 at as successes.
0:44:52 Because you have these conversations with brands who you do need to help make this content.
0:44:55 And so I want there to be more people in this space.
0:44:58 I’m looking forward to a time that there’s four or five other great studios.
0:45:02 And until then, we’re just going to try to figure out what show you want next.
0:45:07 I think a part of it, and I’m just going to speak from personal experience here.
0:45:11 It seems kind of easy because of how short TikToks are.
0:45:16 And you just, you know, it’s such a fleeting experience and it’s a throwaway experience.
0:45:19 And the fact that you can just scroll past it, it’s like, what was the point of that?
0:45:26 And I feel that from, you know, I also believe in the importance of short form, but I found
0:45:32 that it’s actually very difficult to mobilize that effort because it’s a lot more effort
0:45:38 and time than you think for a payoff that feels just a lot less satisfying.
0:45:42 And you know, if you release your hit movie and you do the red carpet and you get an Emmy
0:45:43 and all this stuff.
0:45:47 And it’s like, it feels like a lot of the reason I would imagine just from my experience
0:45:52 why people are not doing it is because it’s like, this is just fucking pain to have to
0:45:54 do this over and over again.
0:45:56 It is the least sexy business on earth.
0:46:00 And I think like again, a part of the reason why a lot of people from traditional haven’t
0:46:03 entered this space is like, you’re not going to get a deadline Hollywood article.
0:46:06 Chanted, our shows have been in every major publication on earth.
0:46:09 But the behind the scenes of that isn’t really reported on.
0:46:12 So there is no red carpet.
0:46:13 It’s a micro budget.
0:46:16 And the interesting thing now is like, because we’ve had so many hits, we are being approached
0:46:21 by all the agencies and management companies offering up like pretty big talent, whether
0:46:25 it’s athletes or A-list actors who basically are upset that they don’t have a digital presence
0:46:26 of their own.
0:46:29 Maybe they want to build a brand long term and a space that they’ve never really talked
0:46:33 about before and they’re positioning their talent is like, can they host a show?
0:46:36 And the only thing that I say to them is basically what you’re saying.
0:46:39 It’s like, if they want a Starwagon on set and they think they’re going to be pampered,
0:46:41 it’s just not the right opportunity.
0:46:45 If they’re really wanting to get their hands dirty and like get in the thick of this thing,
0:46:46 we will make a hit show together.
0:46:50 And you know, that scares certain people away, but it does attract the right crowd.
0:46:53 So did people say, no, not good enough for me?
0:46:56 I think managers know their talent best.
0:46:59 And so they know which of their talent could be open to this idea and not.
0:47:03 I also think that like the other scary thing about TikTok is viewership is public.
0:47:09 And I think a lot of people don’t want people to know how few people listen to their podcast
0:47:13 or watch, you know, watch their show.
0:47:14 Yeah.
0:47:15 It’s so interesting.
0:47:19 Well, I feel like we could go on for hours, but I think I’m going to start to wrap it
0:47:21 up here.
0:47:25 We’ve talked a lot about people working in Hollywood, writers, producers, on a recent
0:47:28 episode on Grofty Markets.
0:47:31 We talked about, you know, what’s going to happen to costume designers and what’s going
0:47:36 to happen to makeup artists, et cetera, and Lionsgate just partnered with an AI company
0:47:37 that’s going to do their storyboarding.
0:47:40 AI is coming.
0:47:46 Do you have any advice to people working in Hollywood who are concerned about their job
0:47:50 security, concerned about the future of entertainment?
0:47:52 What would be your advice to someone in that position?
0:47:54 It’s really hard.
0:47:57 And I say this as a born and raised Angelino.
0:48:02 When I go back home, you can feel the despair.
0:48:06 You know, I don’t think people realize the below the line workers that make every movie
0:48:07 and TV show possible.
0:48:12 They’re not thinking about the costume designers and the set designers and the PAs and the grips
0:48:13 and the gaffers and the truck drivers.
0:48:19 Like it is a industry that is built off the back of middle class workers and you feel that
0:48:23 in LA because restaurants are closing, stores are closing, people aren’t going out the
0:48:26 way that they used to because they have less money in their pocket.
0:48:30 And I don’t think that we can hope that Hollywood’s going to come back.
0:48:32 This might be what it looks like for a very long time.
0:48:38 And so that’s not the most uplifting answer, but it is a reality check that I think a lot
0:48:40 of people need to start having with themselves.
0:48:44 Do you think that they need to just pivot to something else?
0:48:46 They might need to.
0:48:48 Adam is the head coach and co-founder of Gymnasium.
0:48:54 Adam, this was epic and I just agree with all of your texts.
0:48:57 I hate to end it on such a grim note.
0:48:58 It’s good.
0:48:59 Maybe that’s the kick that we need.
0:49:00 I know.
0:49:01 It’s important.
0:49:02 Appreciate your time.
0:49:03 Thank you.
0:49:04 Sorry.
0:49:08 Our producer is Claire Miller.
0:49:12 Our associate producer is Alison Weiss and our engineer is Benjamin Spencer.
0:49:15 Catherine Dillon is our executive producer.
0:49:18 Thank you for listening to First Time Founders from the Vox Media Podcast Network.
0:49:20 Tune in tomorrow for Prodigy Markets.
0:49:30 [Music]
0:49:33 (upbeat music)
0:49:42 [BLANK_AUDIO]
0:00:09 You never know in advance what will be the thing that matters and the thing that doesn’t
0:00:10 matter.
0:00:18 But Donald Trump will be almost 80, and J.D. Vance will be one cheeseburger away from
0:00:20 the presidency should they win.
0:00:25 I’m Preet Bharara, and this week, The Atlantic magazine’s David Frum joins me on my podcast
0:00:29 Stay Tuned with Preet to break down what happened at the debate.
0:00:31 The episode is out now.
0:00:35 Search and follow Stay Tuned with Preet wherever you get your podcasts.
0:00:36 Hi, everyone.
0:00:43 I’m Brené Brown, and I’d love to tell you about a new series that’s launching on Unlocking
0:00:44 Us.
0:00:47 I’m calling it the On My Heart and Mind Podcast series.
0:00:50 It’s going to include conversations with some of my favorite writers on topics ranging
0:00:55 from revolutionary love and gun ownership to menopause and finding joy and grief.
0:00:58 The first episode is available now, and I can’t wait for you to hear it.
0:01:01 All new episodes will drop on Wednesdays, and you can get them as soon as they’re out
0:01:06 by following Unlocking Us on Apple or wherever you listen to your podcasts.
0:01:10 Scott, how much time do you think you spend on TikTok every day?
0:01:16 I spend probably 10 minutes a day, maybe 15 on TikTok, 10 or 15.
0:01:19 I’m spending more time on Reels.
0:01:23 I think Reels has done a really good job.
0:01:25 There’s a lot that worries me about TikTok, but I really enjoyed it.
0:01:26 I think it’s amazing.
0:01:33 I would say I spend 15 minutes a day arguing with my son to get off his phone where he’s
0:01:36 on TikTok.
0:01:39 My son will go into the bathroom, and then I’ll look around 20 minutes later, and he’s
0:01:43 still in the bathroom, and I know he’s on TikTok, and I’ll bang on the door, and I’ll
0:01:49 be like, “Privacy,” and I’m like, “No, start masturbating, but put down the TikTok.”
0:01:52 So my kids go into the bathroom so they can go on TikTok.
0:01:56 I wish that, you know, anyways, not like a good teenage boy should be doing, not like
0:01:58 a healthy teenage boy.
0:01:59 Anyways.
0:02:00 How much time do you think they’re spending?
0:02:06 Too much.
0:02:11 Welcome to First Time Founders, 1.6 billion.
0:02:18 That’s how many people use TikTok today, with an average daily viewing time of 90 minutes.
0:02:23 TikTok has become one of the most powerful platforms in entertainment, and with the rise
0:02:29 of short form content has come the decline of the traditional film and TV industry since
0:02:34 the pandemic, one in five moviegoers has disappeared.
0:02:39 My next guest decided to take advantage of this shift by creating a production studio
0:02:43 that makes television on TikTok.
0:02:49 After launching in 2023, this founder raised venture funding at a $7.5 million valuation,
0:02:56 and with over 400 million views across multiple successful TikTok shows, he is well on his
0:03:00 way to changing how and where we watch television.
0:03:07 This is my conversation with Adam Faiz, the head coach and co-founder of Gymnasium.
0:03:11 Adam, thank you for joining me.
0:03:12 Thank you for having me.
0:03:16 Let’s start with a couple of stats, and I’m just going to get your reaction to it.
0:03:22 Since 2022, film and TV production in the US has fallen 40%.
0:03:28 In the past decade, ticket sales for movies have fallen 40%.
0:03:34 The unemployment rate in Hollywood is currently three times the national average, it’s 12.5%.
0:03:38 And I’m going to give you a few different stats, which is that the average TikTok user
0:03:42 spends over an hour on TikTok every day.
0:03:50 The TikTok user base since 2018 has six Xs, and crucially 70% of Gen Z say that if given
0:03:55 the choice, they would choose TikTok over any other streaming platform.
0:04:00 So my first question to you is, is TikTok killing Hollywood?
0:04:06 Yes, but I would also say that Hollywood’s killing Hollywood, and I say that as someone
0:04:10 that worked in it for eight years, the reality is I’m one of those people in the last stat
0:04:11 you mentioned.
0:04:14 I would choose TikTok over any streaming platform I just would.
0:04:18 I worked in traditional Hollywood studios my whole life, I worked for producers my whole
0:04:24 life, and the reality is it’s too big, too bloated, and too slow to ever make an impact
0:04:25 in this generation.
0:04:28 And when any kid out there with an iPhone and a microphone in their pocket can create
0:04:32 something on a whim and post it within a matter of hours, you’re just not going to compete
0:04:36 with that speed, and that’s what we’re trying to do with Gymnasium.
0:04:38 So give us the story on Gymnasium.
0:04:39 What is it actually doing?
0:04:46 And just a little highlight here, you have accumulated over 400 million views on TikTok
0:04:50 just from creating your own content, from basically treating TikTok like TV.
0:04:52 Tell us about Gymnasium.
0:04:53 What does the business do?
0:04:57 We really think that Shoreform content is the closest thing we have to the TV that you
0:04:58 and I grew up watching.
0:05:03 And so in our minds, Gymnasium is going to create the next generation of TV show hits.
0:05:06 We create things that look and feel like TV.
0:05:10 These are mostly unscripted formats that are mostly comedic, usually with rising talent.
0:05:14 Our biggest show is called Boy Room, and it’s where this girl investigates how disgusting
0:05:17 men’s bedrooms are and then gives advice on how to make them better.
0:05:21 Levi seems to care about having a nice room, but then leaves piles of dirty laundry and
0:05:23 like seven dirty dishes.
0:05:27 The coolest part about all of this is you can hear an idea that you think is really
0:05:28 good.
0:05:29 You can go and shoot a pilot within a week.
0:05:31 Let’s say it’s good enough to go shoot a few more episodes.
0:05:35 You’ll know pretty quickly, usually within the first four or five episodes, if the audience
0:05:37 actually wants this show or not.
0:05:41 And so the time it takes for us to know if we should, you know, continue on with the
0:05:45 show or cancel it is probably the same amount of time it takes for Hollywood to set a pitch
0:05:46 meeting.
0:05:49 And this all kind of started because of the feelings I had in traditional.
0:05:52 I was really frustrated with not being able to sell any formats.
0:05:56 I was frustrated with the development timelines, even when I was just working on the other
0:05:57 side of the aisle at a studio.
0:06:01 And at the same time, during the pandemic, I became addicted to TikTok.
0:06:03 I just did.
0:06:06 And I saw that the more I was using TikTok, the less I was watching TV.
0:06:10 And so there was like that light bulb moment of like, if that’s me, and I grew up being
0:06:14 the most obsessed with movies and TV shows kid, you could possibly find.
0:06:16 And I’m in my mid-20s at that point.
0:06:18 Anyone younger than me, this is just TV and we’re cooked.
0:06:23 And I remember going into my boss the next day and just being like, he was like, what’s
0:06:24 wrong?
0:06:25 Respectfully you are cooked.
0:06:26 So we sit down.
0:06:27 He’s like, what’s wrong?
0:06:28 And I’m like, I don’t know what we’re doing here.
0:06:29 He’s like, what do you mean?
0:06:33 I’m like, we’re arguing over what $100 million movie we should make that will come out five
0:06:38 years from now if we’re lucky that maybe 20 people on Brentwood think is like riveting.
0:06:40 But at the end of the day, like it is not the center of culture that made us go in this
0:06:41 industry in the first place.
0:06:44 Like that center of culture is now this thing right here.
0:06:46 And at that point, it was also a scary feeling for me.
0:06:48 I had never made digital content before.
0:06:50 I’d never even posted a TikTok myself.
0:06:53 And so all I had was there was an opportunity to move to New York to work for this Web
0:06:55 3 startup.
0:07:00 And they had enough sort of VC capital to take a bet on me believing that like, let’s
0:07:02 go see what happens if you go make TV shows for TikTok.
0:07:05 So they gave me like a modest budget of 25 grand.
0:07:06 Let me get that.
0:07:07 I didn’t know this.
0:07:09 So you go to work for a crypto company.
0:07:10 I did.
0:07:11 Unfortunately.
0:07:12 They have too much money.
0:07:13 And they say, and you want to make movies.
0:07:16 So you use the crypto money to make movies.
0:07:17 I’ll back up in further.
0:07:18 So this company.
0:07:19 This is what the crypto industry comes in.
0:07:20 I know.
0:07:21 I know.
0:07:22 And by the way, I will say I was never a crypto person.
0:07:23 I’m still not a crypto person.
0:07:26 But there was a time where I thought maybe I was the dumb one in the room.
0:07:31 And then I realized now I was actually had some sanity, but this company had essentially
0:07:34 sold a half a million dollars worth of NFTs to come make a dating show.
0:07:36 And they had never made a show before in their entire lives.
0:07:39 And so somehow I get connected with them and they’re like, Hey, would you want to come
0:07:42 to move to New York for a few months and come like produce this dating show?
0:07:46 The idea was if you owned an NFT, you could like vote in the bachelor, bachelor in each
0:07:47 episode.
0:07:48 Right.
0:07:49 And we go and make the show.
0:07:50 We spend half a million dollars making it.
0:07:56 And parts of it were so unsuccessful, which was like online, I think in its entire run
0:08:00 we had something like 15,000 views on YouTube, like literally nothing.
0:08:04 But we did do these like fun in-person premieres every Sunday where we’d have like a live audience.
0:08:07 They’d watch the episode and we’d go straight into a live talk show afterwards with like
0:08:10 all the guests from that episode and like celebrity guest judges, whatever.
0:08:14 That part grew from like 200 people the first week to selling out Webster Hall five weeks
0:08:16 later with a thousand people in the audience.
0:08:20 And so there was clearly like something like, okay, like this is reminding people of like
0:08:25 the old days of TRL or SNL and like it’s messy, but maybe people liked the mess.
0:08:29 But my biggest frustration was like, I just came to digital and blew half a million dollars
0:08:33 through, you know, I think that 15,000 people watching, that’s not what I came to the space
0:08:34 to do.
0:08:39 And so at that point I sat down with the founders of the company and just said, look, it’s TikTok.
0:08:41 This is the thing that I use every single day.
0:08:44 This is the thing that I think we can generate IP from scratch on.
0:08:48 Just give me a budget of like 25 grand and let’s just go see what happens.
0:08:52 And so they said, yes, and I started sitting down with the people that I thought were really
0:08:57 great talent at that point, the first of which being Karim Rama, who now hosts Subway takes.
0:08:58 Yeah.
0:09:01 He’s like, I have this one idea that I pitched to every network and streamer for five years
0:09:02 and no one’s wanted it.
0:09:03 I was like, what is it?
0:09:06 He’s like, I want to hail a cab in New York and I want to tell the driver to take me to
0:09:09 their favorite place in the city and keep the meter running.
0:09:12 I was like, that’s a phenomenal fucking idea for a show.
0:09:15 Two days later, we’re standing on Delancey, we’re like trying to hail a cab.
0:09:19 Each cab is just passing by, they’re like freaked out from the cameras until this one
0:09:22 guy pulls up and he’s like, you want to pay me $300, I’ll be in your show.
0:09:26 And he takes us to Jackson Heights, we eat Pakistani food with him.
0:09:28 And you could tell when you’re filming it, you’re like, this is like a magical moment.
0:09:30 This feels like Bourdain.
0:09:31 We end up cutting it down.
0:09:35 We post it on account with zero followers three days later.
0:09:37 Taxi.
0:09:40 Take me to your favorite place and keep the meter running.
0:09:42 Where do you want to go?
0:09:43 Wherever you want to go.
0:09:47 Next morning, Kareem walks into a Bourdain guy and someone comes up to him and is like,
0:09:48 I fucking love your show, man.
0:09:51 And he’s like, wait, who are you talking to?
0:09:52 Who are you talking to?
0:09:56 And Kareem pulls out his phone and that one episode that was posted on account with zero
0:09:58 followers had over a million and a half views.
0:09:59 Unbelievable.
0:10:02 And what we saw in the back end was 98% of that audience at that point was in New York
0:10:03 City.
0:10:08 So it’s like overnight, he had become a celebrity in the city with a basically local television
0:10:09 show that we had produced.
0:10:12 That show went on to have over a hundred million views on its own.
0:10:13 It traveled to London.
0:10:14 It traveled to Miami.
0:10:16 It traveled to Egypt.
0:10:21 And I think that really set the stage for what we saw as like this much bigger vision.
0:10:26 And so based on the success of that show, I was sort of sitting there being like, look,
0:10:28 my passion is being a producer.
0:10:29 It’s not working for a crypto company.
0:10:33 And at the end of the day, I do think there’s a world where the next great television studio
0:10:36 is going to be made right here on this platform.
0:10:38 The biggest question is just, how are you going to make money doing that?
0:10:40 Because this platform will not pay you.
0:10:41 Are you making money?
0:10:42 That’s my question.
0:10:43 Yes.
0:10:46 And what I would say is like, it still is the wild, wild West, but we’re trying to be
0:10:50 a lot smarter about the shows we produce to sort of like make sure that we can make money
0:10:52 off of these things.
0:10:56 The reality of the situation is like, I think Hollywood is going to start facing a lesson
0:10:59 that the music industry learned 20 years ago, which is that the content itself is not
0:11:01 going to be the thing that makes money anymore.
0:11:05 And so for us, assuming that we’re going to make zero dollars from any platform that
0:11:08 we’re on, we focus on sort of like two angles.
0:11:10 One is brand integration into our content.
0:11:13 And the other is seeing if the show that we’re producing might actually generate a brand
0:11:14 to come out of.
0:11:19 And so what I mean by that is like, on Boy Room, our biggest show right now, the reason
0:11:23 we love that idea so much wasn’t just because Rachel Coster is the funniest person we never
0:11:28 met, but we really thought if we can make this a viral show, there’s a home renovation
0:11:29 component to this.
0:11:33 And maybe we can convince like an e-commerce giant to come in and partner with us in the
0:11:36 next season of the show to start renovating men’s bedrooms.
0:11:40 That show blew up in a way that we had never experienced before.
0:11:43 It got more press attention than any show we’ve ever worked on.
0:11:47 And again, Rachel was someone who had 3,000 followers on Instagram when we found her and
0:11:52 now cannot walk down the street in New York anymore without being accosted for photos.
0:11:56 We started talking to these e-commerce giants pretty quickly as the press started picking
0:12:00 up being like, “Guys, we have this bigger vision for the show and can we convince you
0:12:03 to buy into this thing that no one’s really ever done before?”
0:12:07 And after months of negotiating with a few of these companies, we just closed a massive
0:12:11 deal around the next season of the show where we are going to be able to actually start renovating
0:12:17 these men’s bedrooms in New York and LA with furniture from this platform.
0:12:19 And so that’s like a first of its kind thing.
0:12:23 And I think there will be trials and errors as we continue to go here, but I will say
0:12:28 in talking with these brands, they’re for the first time realizing like we’re pulling
0:12:30 spending on TV.
0:12:34 We like sponsoring influencers, but it’s not that great of a business for us.
0:12:39 And so like we need to find more of a mainstay home for where we can put our brand.
0:12:41 And the reality is like shows are a safer bet.
0:12:44 Presumably, you’re taking 100% of the advertising dollars, right?
0:12:48 If you’re creating those direct relationships, which is great.
0:12:53 How does it compare to YouTube because, you know, YouTube, you can make money.
0:12:54 YouTube pays you.
0:12:56 TikTok doesn’t pay, there’s no pay.
0:13:00 Of those 400 million views we’ve gotten, I think we’ve probably been paid maybe like
0:13:02 $15,000 from TikTok.
0:13:03 So like it’s just not even.
0:13:06 So TikTok is paying you, but they’re just paying you a terrible, wow, okay, I didn’t realize
0:13:07 that.
0:13:09 So how are all these TikTokers, like how are the…
0:13:10 It’s all brand sponsorship.
0:13:15 I mean, I think I just read a stat today that said something like influencers made $1 billion
0:13:19 off of platform revenue this year, but they made $8 billion from sponsorship.
0:13:22 So like clearly there’s just a lot more money from sponsorship.
0:13:23 Yeah.
0:13:25 Exactly the way you should be doing it, right?
0:13:29 So let’s just talk a little bit more about TikTok versus Hollywood.
0:13:34 One thing that I find interesting is this idea of decision fatigue.
0:13:41 Netflix watches, people who watch Netflix spend 78 hours per year deciding what to watch.
0:13:47 So talk to us about how your view on decision fatigue, how does decision fatigue play into
0:13:48 the rise of TikTok today?
0:13:52 I mean, the reality is like, I think that’s where original TV was better in some ways.
0:13:55 You could just scroll the channels and like you’re eventually going to find something
0:13:56 that you want.
0:13:58 And I think that is what TikTok is tapping into.
0:14:03 If I have an hour to spare and I am on my couch, I’m going to go on TikTok.
0:14:06 I’m not going to open Netflix and do the 78 hours per year of scrolling.
0:14:09 It’s just, I know I’m not going to find the thing that I want to watch.
0:14:12 And so I think that that’s the thing, like these platforms are so personalized to what
0:14:16 your interests are at this point that you’re more likely to be entertained.
0:14:20 And that is where at the end of the day, like, look, our content is on every platform.
0:14:24 We want to be wherever you are because we don’t know what platform you’re on.
0:14:28 But I do think TikTok is the best player in the space only because the consumer habit
0:14:30 that makes you open it is I want to watch entertainment.
0:14:32 It’s not, I want to watch things from my friends.
0:14:34 It’s not, I want to talk to my friends.
0:14:35 It’s literally, I want to be entertained.
0:14:36 And that is what TV is.
0:14:37 Yeah.
0:14:41 There’s this other great start, which is that 43% of TikTok users say that they use TikTok
0:14:44 for quote, mindless entertainment.
0:14:50 How do you as a TikTok production company grapple with that?
0:14:54 How do you grapple with the fact that you want to create content that is ultimately supposed
0:14:56 to be mindless or is it supposed to be something else?
0:15:01 I mean, the thing that I think about the most is like for every person that goes on TikTok,
0:15:04 you’re probably consuming about 200 videos in that session.
0:15:10 And that includes everything from like a funny meme to some horrifying news around the world
0:15:13 to, you know, someone doing a dance to a music video.
0:15:14 Like it’s just like, it’s so different.
0:15:18 And so it’s like, how do you create that concept that sticks out so much?
0:15:21 And then you watch that one episode and you’re like, give me 500 more of these.
0:15:23 And that is kind of what we strive for.
0:15:27 So like everything we’ve ever made is very much like a format where you can kind of plug
0:15:32 and play every episode is a little bit different of the same thing just so that you can go
0:15:33 and binge.
0:15:36 And what we’ve heard from our fans is like, even on a show like keep the meter running,
0:15:40 I have friends who found that show after episode 50 and they end up spending two hours in bed
0:15:43 binging every episode, but in backwards.
0:15:46 And so I think like that is what we strive for in any show that we make.
0:15:51 And it does just mean looking back a little bit to like the early 2000s of cable TV formats
0:15:52 for inspiration.
0:15:54 So what do you think is the secret source then?
0:15:59 I kind of think of you as like the king of virality when it comes to TikTok and short
0:16:00 form content.
0:16:02 What makes a show great?
0:16:08 Why when Rachel said, I want to look at boys discussing rooms, what was so compelling about
0:16:09 that as an idea?
0:16:10 I mean, it’s really, it’s simple.
0:16:11 It’s two things.
0:16:13 You have to have the best talent.
0:16:15 You really just have to have a star.
0:16:19 And they’re not easy to find, but when you find them, that’s what makes this thing perform
0:16:20 the best.
0:16:22 The other is you have to have a format that you can’t look away from.
0:16:27 When you’re watching the opening frame of Boy Room and it’s some disgusting men’s bedrooms
0:16:30 and Philly without a door, you’re going to keep watching.
0:16:34 And thankfully Rachel can carry it to the end because like you now love her as a host.
0:16:38 When Kareem gets in a cab and he tells the driver, take me to a fair place and keep the
0:16:40 meter running, you’re not going to stop watching.
0:16:43 Like there’s a party that’s like, I want to ask that question to a cab driver.
0:16:46 And so it really is those two factors.
0:16:51 And the reality is like we try so many different pilots internally and kill so many shows because
0:16:53 it doesn’t get to that point.
0:16:57 We even just made a show called Bodega Run that we only did, I think the 10 or 11 episodes
0:17:02 of and we canceled it because look, the first three episodes actually got a combined like
0:17:06 30 million views across YouTube and TikTok combined.
0:17:08 We didn’t want to watch it.
0:17:12 Like it would come on my feet and I would scroll and the last six episodes, I think
0:17:15 we were representative of that because it had to combine like 200,000 views and it’s
0:17:17 like clearly there’s not a consistency here.
0:17:19 You don’t want to watch a hundred episodes.
0:17:20 And what was the premise of Bodega Run?
0:17:23 It’s kind of like our version of supermarket sweep.
0:17:27 It was like we would go to real life Bodegas, we’d find someone outside, we’d say you have
0:17:31 60 seconds, go find these three items and check out and if you do, we’ll give you $100.
0:17:33 And they had these like GoPros attached to their heads.
0:17:37 It was like very much like 360 camera looking at what they’re looking at and we had cameras
0:17:39 that would go into the Bodegas.
0:17:46 And it was funny.
0:17:47 But it wasn’t a hit show.
0:17:51 It just didn’t have that quality of a really amazing format.
0:17:55 And so I think game shows are the space that we’d like to be in, but it’s a little tougher
0:17:58 to crack and have that thing that’s like perfect.
0:18:03 Whereas diving into a certain world and crafting a format around that is always going to be
0:18:06 more fun for us.
0:18:23 We’ll be right back.
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0:20:38 We’re back with First Time Founders.
0:20:40 You worked in Hollywood.
0:20:44 You were a fan of TV shows and movies and it kind of feels like what’s sort of happening
0:20:53 with the entertainment space is the virtues of long form, which is basically the virtues
0:20:54 of narrative.
0:20:58 It feels like narrative has basically been thrown away that someone who can write a great
0:21:02 story with a beginning, middle and an end actually isn’t useful anymore.
0:21:06 What matters most is basically just the premise.
0:21:11 It’s like, can your first sentence be interesting and that’s all that matters.
0:21:13 Do you feel like that’s kind of what’s happening to entertainment?
0:21:18 Yes, and to correct one thing just because I don’t want to be destroyed by the people
0:21:20 I do look up to in Hollywood still.
0:21:23 I don’t think movies and TV shows are going away forever.
0:21:25 I think that we’re going to watch far fewer of them.
0:21:29 I do think that means that the ones you do watch become that much more impactful.
0:21:34 By the way, that’s what the market is telling us because the top movies are taking all of
0:21:35 the revenue now.
0:21:38 And when you do have a moment like Barbier, Oppenheimer, it’s like, yeah, everyone around
0:21:39 the world watched that movie.
0:21:42 That is a huge impact on society.
0:21:45 And so I’m not dooming and glooming in that sense, but I am saying that like the old days
0:21:49 of spending three hours flipping channels your TV are completely gone.
0:21:52 You’re going to watch TV for sports, you’re going to watch it for like the big hyped up
0:21:55 Netflix show that everyone’s talking about, but otherwise you’re going to be on your
0:21:56 phone.
0:22:00 And so on the like first three seconds at all, it is super important.
0:22:02 You do need to have a really interesting premise.
0:22:05 I think there’s people that have different interpretations of what that means.
0:22:08 I think there’s the side of Mr. Beast that’s like, don’t stop watching.
0:22:13 We’re going to blow up a school bus and like, okay, I’ll watch fine, but I think we’re trying
0:22:16 to do something completely different, which is just like, what’s a really fun idea of
0:22:20 just again, a world that you want to be in while you’re in bed?
0:22:23 Only I’ve noted, I mean, you mentioned that most of your shows are unscripted, all of
0:22:24 them are unscripted.
0:22:25 All of them are unscripted.
0:22:26 All of them.
0:22:32 It feels like the TikTok YouTube sort of creator economy trend is in the unscripted
0:22:33 direction.
0:22:39 I can’t really think of anyone on these platforms who’s creating really popular scripted content.
0:22:40 Why do you think that is?
0:22:43 Why, why are the winners here doing unscripted?
0:22:46 Look, there’s two sides where scripted comes into play.
0:22:49 There’s sketch comedy and some of these sketch comedy groups like please don’t destroy and
0:22:51 it becoming sort of the stars of SNL.
0:22:55 The other side is there’s actually a really amazing generation of young horror filmmakers
0:22:59 who I think are like, are generations James Wands, who every single day are putting out
0:23:03 some of the scariest fucking things I’ve ever seen in my entire life.
0:23:06 Those people will be using these platforms to become the next generation of filmmakers.
0:23:11 I think why you don’t see more like dramas or sort of another side of the scripted narrative
0:23:13 part, is it just more expensive?
0:23:16 Like as soon as you have a script, you need actors, as soon as you have actors, you need
0:23:19 makeup, then you need props, you need a set, you need lighting, and then you need a grip
0:23:23 and a gaffer, and then you kind of end up being stuck in the same situation.
0:23:28 And so I think it is the low budget formats that are going to thrive the most on these
0:23:29 platforms.
0:23:33 And if you look at just traditional Hollywood, the low budget genres have always been unscripted
0:23:34 in horror.
0:23:38 It sounds like we don’t care that much about quality anymore because the experience is
0:23:41 only going to last 30 seconds and you can just scroll.
0:23:44 And that’s where I think I was always taught as a young person who made a bunch of short
0:23:49 films is like, don’t think that you need an Ari Alexa, think that you need a good script
0:23:53 and that you do need good audio, that’s the one thing you really do need.
0:23:56 But otherwise, like no one cares what camera you film this thing on.
0:24:00 And the other thing is we’re dealing with a generation of kids who have consumed advertisements
0:24:02 since the day they were born.
0:24:05 And so I actually think at this point, when they see an Ari Alexa filmed piece of content
0:24:09 on their feed, they think it’s an ad and they want to scroll immediately.
0:24:13 We shoot everything we do on Sony FX3s, it’s like the perfect balance of looking like it
0:24:17 was made for you while still feeling professional.
0:24:19 And so like when you do scroll up on one of our shows.
0:24:24 But what do you mean by looking like it was made for you, like sort of looking at casual?
0:24:27 It still feels like it fits on the platform.
0:24:30 It doesn’t feel like, oh, this person spent a million dollars and is trying to fit in.
0:24:34 It’s like, okay, this was like just low-fi enough where it still makes sense here, but
0:24:37 it’s high-fi enough where it’s not just like an iPhone video.
0:24:41 And I think that’s probably the camera we’re going to continue to film our content on forever
0:24:43 in the short film space.
0:24:44 Why is that important?
0:24:48 This is something I’ve been finding really interesting about our generation where we
0:24:58 have sort of this weird obsession with authenticity and we’re extremely sensitive to bullshit.
0:25:02 I think because we’ve consumed so many ads, I mean, the number is we consume 300 ads per
0:25:06 hour, which is up tenfold from what our parents were experiencing.
0:25:12 So it does feel that we are extremely sensitive or we can just sort of sniff ads out out of
0:25:14 nowhere.
0:25:18 But what you’re describing is interesting because you’re kind of saying we are intentionally
0:25:23 making it low production to make it sort of look more authentic, perhaps, than it actually
0:25:24 is.
0:25:25 Take us through what you’re…
0:25:28 What I would also say, it’s a cost thing too.
0:25:33 Shooting on these Sony FX3 is like, my sets have never been more than three people, you
0:25:36 know, and so you have two people both holding the cameras that also have the microphones
0:25:37 on them.
0:25:38 And you have a host and a producer.
0:25:39 Like, that’s what our crew looks like.
0:25:43 And if I had an Ari Alexa, I would need a DP, I would need lighting, I would need a
0:25:44 grip and a gaffer.
0:25:48 And like, the reality is spending all that money is not going to make a better piece
0:25:49 of content on these platforms.
0:25:53 So it’s both something that I think performs better on the platform, but it’s also what
0:25:54 allows our business model to work.
0:25:59 Like, to put it simply, Season 1 and Boy Room, we produced 22 episodes, only 14 of which
0:26:00 came out.
0:26:04 Some of the guys just either weren’t messy enough or like were pretending to be messy
0:26:05 and we threw those episodes out.
0:26:10 But of those 22 episodes that we shot, the entire thing cost us $48,000.
0:26:11 That’s impossible.
0:26:14 That’s a coffee budget on an HBO show.
0:26:20 And so like, again, it’s like, but then we found the market fit, right?
0:26:23 Like we know now that Boy Room is a hit show and there’s a world where that does turn into
0:26:24 a TV show at some point.
0:26:28 And like, this kind of turns into the comic book model where it’s like, we can go generate
0:26:32 IP at a fraction of the cost of Hollywood and then decide what we want to do with it.
0:26:35 I think there’s a version where some of our shows turn into just 18 to 20 minute YouTube
0:26:36 shows.
0:26:38 I think there’s another world where some of them turn into TV shows.
0:26:42 But at the end of the day, it is creating IP at a fraction of the cost.
0:26:46 One of your investors is kind of peak Hollywood.
0:26:51 That is Jeremy Zimmer, who’s the CEO of UTA, which is basically one of the biggest entertainment
0:26:55 talented agencies in the world.
0:26:56 What does he think of you?
0:26:58 But more generally, what does Hollywood think?
0:26:59 Have people come up to you?
0:27:00 Do they like you?
0:27:01 Are they scared of you?
0:27:04 It’s a combination of all of them.
0:27:08 And I was so honored that Jeremy wanted to be in the round.
0:27:12 He’s become a close friend and it’s been really nice to be able to call on him and take his
0:27:13 brain.
0:27:18 I think the older generation of entertainment sees the rising tide and knows to start looking
0:27:20 at where things are going.
0:27:24 I also think the older generation have kids old enough to recognize their viewing habits
0:27:27 have changed and can actually be a witness to the fact of like, oh, we’re fucked.
0:27:29 They have to experience it themselves.
0:27:33 Whereas like the 30-something-year-old creative executive who grew up in a different industry
0:27:38 who’s hoping to still have their big Oscar moment, they hate me and they hate TikTok
0:27:39 and they hate the platform.
0:27:43 And you can see it anytime there’s any article in anything we produce, all the comments are
0:27:45 like, can we just ban this thing already?
0:27:46 I hate this thing.
0:27:49 And it’s like, I wish they would just download TikTok because I know they would have actually
0:27:53 the greatest time of all time and then they would start agreeing with it.
0:27:56 The other thing is like, we’re not supposed to be competition.
0:27:57 Come on in.
0:27:58 The water is warm.
0:28:01 The history of television can be recreated on this platform and it’s not going to be
0:28:03 done by just one studio.
0:28:06 You mentioned, can we ban this thing already?
0:28:07 TikTok might get banned.
0:28:09 What do you think of that?
0:28:11 It’s a touchy subject.
0:28:16 What I will say is I think you can’t put the short form content thing back in the hat.
0:28:19 I think we love consuming content this way.
0:28:23 And so if it were to go away tomorrow, I think some of that viewership would go to Instagram
0:28:24 Reels.
0:28:27 I think some would go to YouTube Shorts, although I think YouTube is afraid of shorts
0:28:31 a little bit because it cannibalizes what’s an amazing business for them, which is longer
0:28:32 form content.
0:28:37 I think there’s probably space for a new app to come in only because of what I said earlier,
0:28:42 which is like that consumer habit about TikTok of just opening it to consume content is not
0:28:43 the same on Instagram.
0:28:48 Instagram, I’m going on first to see my DMs, look at my stories, see things from my friends.
0:28:52 And then maybe I’ll get stuck in like a brain rot, you know, Reels feed.
0:28:54 But it’s not the thing that I’m going on Instagram for.
0:28:57 So I just think you can’t put this thing back in the bag.
0:29:00 And for us, like we’re going to continue to be on every single platform that’s available
0:29:03 because we think that we’re going to forever have the best content on that platform.
0:29:10 I’d like to get into Instagram Reels, 730 million active users on Instagram Reels.
0:29:14 So it’s sort of, it’s still behind TikTok, which is at 1.6 billion, but it’s definitely
0:29:15 catching up.
0:29:20 Breakdown for us, why you think that’s an important distinction that Instagram Reels
0:29:26 is a component of the Instagram experience versus the entire product.
0:29:31 Why do you think that makes it so substantially different from TikTok?
0:29:35 It’s almost too social, you know, and I think the thing that’s so magical at TikTok is like,
0:29:38 again, I actually don’t want to see content from my friends because they probably don’t
0:29:39 make good videos.
0:29:40 Right.
0:29:43 And when I’m like watching a funny video on TikTok from a stranger, the first thing I
0:29:46 do is open the comments and like I read other funny comments and like that’s my experience.
0:29:49 Like I don’t need to have my friends be on that platform.
0:29:51 With Instagram, it’s tricky.
0:29:54 I think there’s so many distractions on the platform because you have incoming DMs and
0:29:59 you want to see posts from your friends that longer form content, like just kind of suffers
0:30:00 on the platform.
0:30:03 I will say like Boy Room does pretty amazingly on Reels.
0:30:07 We get anywhere from half a million to a million viewers an episode on the platform.
0:30:09 So like, still really happy with it.
0:30:13 But I think like when I open my Reels tab, the average length of the video that I would
0:30:17 say it shows me is probably around 20 seconds long and almost all of them are memes.
0:30:22 And that works really well for the platform because the entire point of Reels on Instagram
0:30:25 is they want to show you content that you’re going to send to your friends because that
0:30:28 makes them watch the content and like you’re more likely to send a meme to your friend
0:30:30 than maybe an episode of a show.
0:30:32 So I’m excited to see how they change that.
0:30:36 I’ve heard rumors that they want to do longer form content and start prioritizing that in
0:30:37 the algorithm.
0:30:39 I hope they do.
0:30:42 And we’re just going to continue posting there until that happens.
0:30:46 But the only difference for us as well is like on Instagram Reels, in order to be in
0:30:49 the algorithm, your content has to be under 90 seconds long.
0:30:53 Sometimes our TikTok content will be two and a half, three, three and a half minutes long.
0:30:58 And so we end up cutting our content differently based on the platform we’re posting it to.
0:31:02 How have you found sort of grappling with the algorithm?
0:31:08 I feel like that’s another huge part of this because in Hollywood, it used to be that the
0:31:11 barrier to entry was could you get past the executives?
0:31:14 Did the guy in the room like you?
0:31:18 And it’s now at a point where it’s does the algorithm like you?
0:31:23 And in a lot of ways that makes things easier because it means that you can just sort of
0:31:28 pull yourself up by your bootstraps and just get involved immediately at very low costs.
0:31:30 But also you don’t even know what they want.
0:31:32 We don’t know how the algorithm works.
0:31:35 It’s this sort of mythical beast that we can’t truly understand.
0:31:37 You’ve kind of cracked it though.
0:31:39 What is the algorithm want?
0:31:40 Good shit.
0:31:46 I’ve never disagreed with what it has made perform for us and what it hasn’t like literally
0:31:47 as a company.
0:31:50 Anytime we’ve posted something that hasn’t performed the next we’ve all been like, yeah,
0:31:52 it kind of sucked.
0:31:53 That was good.
0:31:54 That was pretty shitty.
0:31:56 And I think like bodega run was part of that like by the end of it.
0:32:00 It was just like we didn’t have any heart in the show whatsoever.
0:32:01 And so I don’t know.
0:32:05 That might be my famous last words and the algorithm shifts and all of a sudden I’m fucked.
0:32:08 But I haven’t seen that to be the case yet.
0:32:12 You know, I think it’s really good about testing content in front of an audience until it finds
0:32:14 the audience that will like your content.
0:32:17 You know, I’ll say like a story from Boyd Room.
0:32:22 We posted the first episode on Instagram, gets like 250k views, we’re like, that’s sick.
0:32:25 Posted on TikTok gets 147 views, you’re like, okay.
0:32:29 Post the second episode on Instagram gets 300,000 views.
0:32:31 On TikTok gets like 205 views.
0:32:32 We’re like, what is happening?
0:32:34 This is an amazing show.
0:32:36 Maybe it’s not showing it to people.
0:32:39 I’m starting to have conspiracy theories, I have 18 accounts in my phone, maybe it’s
0:32:40 shadow banning me.
0:32:41 That’s the best.
0:32:43 Everyone thinks that’s shadow ban when their content doesn’t perform.
0:32:46 Yeah, your content just sucks.
0:32:49 But I look in the back end and it’s like, no, it is showing it on the for you page and
0:32:51 I can see when people are dropping off and it’s in the first three seconds.
0:32:53 I’m like, okay, what’s happening in the first three seconds?
0:32:56 And it’s this like loud TV show intro.
0:32:59 Welcome to Boyd Room, the show where we investigate boys’ rooms.
0:33:00 We’re like, okay.
0:33:01 Episode three, no intro.
0:33:04 We’re just going to drop into the show.
0:33:09 That one difference was enough to get 4 million views in 24 hours and over 30,000 followers
0:33:10 on that account.
0:33:11 It’s good.
0:33:12 It knows what it’s doing.
0:33:15 And that change was the right creative call on that show.
0:33:18 And so I think like, again, people think that they have to cater to the algorithm in the
0:33:22 Mr. Beast way and we’re trying to prove that you don’t.
0:33:24 We’ll be right back.
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0:35:57 We’re back with First Time Founders.
0:36:00 You recently went to the DNC.
0:36:01 Why did you do that?
0:36:05 I actually always say that you can track the changes in consumption media through politics
0:36:07 faster than anything else.
0:36:13 I think about Obama going on between two firms in 2011, I want to say, to talk about Obamacare.
0:36:18 I can even remember in 2016 when Trump won, the still remaining importance of the late
0:36:23 night hosts kind of like shedding a tear on stage for America of like, oh my God, Trump
0:36:25 is president.
0:36:30 And you look at it now, and it’s like Trump is going on Aidan Ross, Kamala is giving more
0:36:34 access to creators and influencers than to, you know, the press.
0:36:38 And I think that’s reflective of like where everything’s going because they need the people,
0:36:39 they need the votes.
0:36:41 So they’re going to go where the people are.
0:36:44 And so politics just turns in a much faster rate.
0:36:48 We were at the DNC because we brought city council member, Chio, say, from Bed-San Crown
0:36:53 Heights over there, who is someone that we’ve worked really closely with out of passion.
0:36:57 Really believe in him being a future voice of the Democratic Party.
0:37:03 And we started working with him because last summer, New York’s rent guidelines board was
0:37:06 going to decide how much to increase rent stabilized rents.
0:37:09 And they were debating whether or not to raise it by 16%.
0:37:12 Because post-pandemic, people are struggling, a lot of people are going to be put on the
0:37:14 streets if something like that passes.
0:37:19 And she comes to me and my friend, Peter McIndoo, who started Birds Aren’t Real.
0:37:24 And he says, “I need to get people to this hearing because the people that this policy
0:37:29 will affect don’t know that there’s a hearing on Thursday where they are waiting to hear
0:37:30 testimonies.”
0:37:33 And he’s like, “I have 2,000 followers, I have no idea how to engage, like the greater
0:37:34 New York area.
0:37:35 I think I’m fucked.”
0:37:38 And we’re like, “Don’t worry, we go to his office with just an iPhone.
0:37:43 We script this video that kind of gets that message out in just a perfect, quick, 60-second
0:37:44 way.”
0:37:48 That video gets a million views in 24 hours from New Yorkers.
0:37:55 Three days later, for a room that had a capacity of 250 people, over 1,000 people showed up.
0:37:59 And every single person in line, I have the video, shakes cheese hand and says, “I’m
0:38:01 only here because of your video.”
0:38:06 New York ends up only raising rent stabilized rent by 3%.
0:38:11 So that for us was our first foray ever into politics and figuring out how can we use what
0:38:15 we know about these platforms to help push policy, to help make change around the country
0:38:16 and maybe the world.
0:38:21 And so I think for us, we have a huge interest in just kind of continuing that conversation
0:38:24 and seeing what else we can do in this space.
0:38:28 So do you think politicians are underusing this platform and was that sort of the idea
0:38:32 that you wanted to get the word out to these politicians you need to be on TikTok?
0:38:34 I think there are two politicians that are amazing at TikTok.
0:38:39 I think it’s Congressman Jeff Jackson out of North Carolina and I think it’s GSA.
0:38:40 That’s it.
0:38:42 I think AOC is incredible at using Instagram.
0:38:45 I wish he would call us for TikTok.
0:38:51 It is crazy to me how much every politician is still being led by like social marketing
0:38:55 teams who want them to do these dumb trends and silly sounds and it treats young audiences
0:38:58 specifically as idiots.
0:39:02 People want to be talked to like adults, they want to hear what’s going on in the world.
0:39:05 Congressman Jeff Jackson was a freshman term congressman who just started talking to the
0:39:09 camera as like America’s dad about here’s what’s going on in Congress right now.
0:39:11 He gets an average of like four or five million views a video.
0:39:15 That’s impossible that no freshman congressman has ever had to reach that big.
0:39:16 And so it’s frustrating.
0:39:20 I think it’s like people really think they need to dumb themselves down for people to
0:39:22 like them and the reality is like they just need to be themselves.
0:39:28 What do you think of Brat specifically in his relation to Kamala?
0:39:33 I mean, the reason I bring that up is because it feels very kind of adjacent to the trend
0:39:39 you’re talking about where the social media account of Kamala Harris, it was handed over
0:39:46 to I guess a young person who was a fan of Charlie XCX and sort of associated Brat and
0:39:52 all of that teen meme culture with the Harris campaign and it has exploded.
0:39:58 But it feels in my view very similar to what you have described where it’s kind of these
0:40:04 politicians don’t really understand these meme cultures, but they’re being told by their
0:40:05 younger employees.
0:40:09 You should just do it because people will like it and it’s resonated in a really big
0:40:10 way.
0:40:15 But I don’t think in my view at least it doesn’t seem that genuine to Kamala, but maybe that
0:40:16 doesn’t matter.
0:40:17 What is your view on that whole?
0:40:23 Look, it gets millions of views, it gets millions of likes, it makes everyone on Twitter love
0:40:25 it that lives in New York City and LA.
0:40:30 The reality is this election is 50/50, it’s likely to be decided by a few thousand votes.
0:40:33 Young men have abandoned the Democratic Party.
0:40:36 So it’s all fun and games, but we’re missing the point.
0:40:41 And I think the Democratic Party specifically likes to usually blame this on so many different
0:40:42 factors.
0:40:47 It’s their fault and they are not speaking on the issues that they care about, the people
0:40:48 that matter most.
0:40:53 And so like I cringe the more that we talk about Brat Summer, it was fun for a day and
0:40:57 I loved the meme and I loved all the new excitement when Biden dropped out of the race, but this
0:41:00 is not speaking to those 5,000 votes that will decide this election.
0:41:04 I just want to talk about news as well, similar to what we’re talking about, but 40% of Gen
0:41:11 Z today regularly gets their news from TikTok and that number is up from 9% in 2020.
0:41:14 So TikTok is fast becoming a news platform.
0:41:16 I mean, it is the new TV.
0:41:20 So what are your thoughts on the fact that we’re getting on news from TikTok?
0:41:21 Is that a good thing?
0:41:22 Is it a bad thing?
0:41:23 Where do you stand on this?
0:41:25 I think it can be an amazing thing.
0:41:30 I think again, this is a space that needs more trusted voices, that needs more serious
0:41:34 shows that have like the checks and balances that like ensure the right information is
0:41:35 being said.
0:41:40 My only fear about 40% of people getting their news from TikTok is there’s very little fact
0:41:42 checking on this platform.
0:41:46 And I will see a video that is literal fake news come up in my feed.
0:41:49 And no one leaves the platform when they’re on it.
0:41:53 It’s not like, okay, I saw this video, now let me go on Google and see if this is actually
0:41:54 real or not.
0:41:55 No one’s doing that.
0:41:57 What they do is they click on the comments and the comments likely validate that belief
0:42:01 system because all of a sudden the comments are, I can’t believe this is true.
0:42:02 And it’s like, I guess it’s true.
0:42:03 It’s like, no, this isn’t fucking true.
0:42:04 No part of this is true.
0:42:08 But now this person’s going to repeat it in person as if it is.
0:42:12 And the other thing, which is the sad part of these platforms is like, you are likely
0:42:17 being radicalized by an algorithm that really knows what you like and what you want to see
0:42:19 and you’re not seeing what’s on the other side.
0:42:24 Do you think the algorithm is being engineered by the Chinese government?
0:42:31 All I will say is, I don’t know what to say there, in between a rock and a hard place.
0:42:34 What I will say is I think we are our own worst enemy.
0:42:39 And I think the issue with these algorithms is they actually understand human nature.
0:42:43 And the reality is we like these things.
0:42:45 It’s like Trump didn’t cause any of this.
0:42:48 He was the effect of all of this.
0:42:54 We are in very divisive times because we are really upset with each other.
0:42:56 We’re not really wanting to look at each other in the eyes anymore.
0:43:00 I think that’s the area that I’d like to focus most of my time on.
0:43:01 I love this country.
0:43:03 I think it’s the greatest country on earth.
0:43:08 And I want to get us to a place where we can be across the aisle from each other and still
0:43:11 shake hands and realize we still want the same things.
0:43:13 We just have different approaches.
0:43:17 As we wrap up here, I do want to get a sense of how things work for you.
0:43:21 What does your production process look like?
0:43:25 If someone wants to go out there and produce a TikTok show, what do they do?
0:43:28 I’ll give the boy room example because I think it’s a really fun one.
0:43:32 Rachel came into our office on a Tuesday, she pitched boy room.
0:43:35 That Friday we shot a pilot with my friend Peter that will never see the light of day
0:43:37 because he was very upset with me.
0:43:39 That was enough for us to realize we wanted to go make the show.
0:43:41 The following week we shot three episodes.
0:43:43 The week after that we posted the first two.
0:43:45 So it’s a matter of weeks.
0:43:50 And that for us is significantly longer than the average TikTok user.
0:43:54 Us spending 50K on a season is a fraction of Hollywood.
0:43:56 It’s still more than anyone is spending on this platform.
0:43:59 So you don’t need anything.
0:44:02 All you need is a really good idea and just know how to address your audience a little
0:44:04 bit faster than usual.
0:44:05 And you’ll have a hit.
0:44:08 And I think the thing that I’m really surprised by is I feel like I’ve sort of been shouting
0:44:12 from the rooftops for two years about like this being television, this being the space
0:44:14 to create the next generation of formats.
0:44:17 And I’m kind of shocked at how few people have taken the base.
0:44:18 Yes, exactly.
0:44:21 I was going to ask, are there any competitors that you’re seeing?
0:44:26 There’s a few companies in this space who make really fun, you know, content.
0:44:28 A lot of man on the street stuff.
0:44:32 What I haven’t seen in this space that I think we’re really good at is creating like real
0:44:34 traditional TV show formats.
0:44:40 I think when people start seeing the business that is here, it might be a space that’s flushed
0:44:43 with capital again and having people start these companies.
0:44:47 I welcome it because I think the thing that will help most is having other things to point
0:44:49 at as successes.
0:44:52 Because you have these conversations with brands who you do need to help make this content.
0:44:55 And so I want there to be more people in this space.
0:44:58 I’m looking forward to a time that there’s four or five other great studios.
0:45:02 And until then, we’re just going to try to figure out what show you want next.
0:45:07 I think a part of it, and I’m just going to speak from personal experience here.
0:45:11 It seems kind of easy because of how short TikToks are.
0:45:16 And you just, you know, it’s such a fleeting experience and it’s a throwaway experience.
0:45:19 And the fact that you can just scroll past it, it’s like, what was the point of that?
0:45:26 And I feel that from, you know, I also believe in the importance of short form, but I found
0:45:32 that it’s actually very difficult to mobilize that effort because it’s a lot more effort
0:45:38 and time than you think for a payoff that feels just a lot less satisfying.
0:45:42 And you know, if you release your hit movie and you do the red carpet and you get an Emmy
0:45:43 and all this stuff.
0:45:47 And it’s like, it feels like a lot of the reason I would imagine just from my experience
0:45:52 why people are not doing it is because it’s like, this is just fucking pain to have to
0:45:54 do this over and over again.
0:45:56 It is the least sexy business on earth.
0:46:00 And I think like again, a part of the reason why a lot of people from traditional haven’t
0:46:03 entered this space is like, you’re not going to get a deadline Hollywood article.
0:46:06 Chanted, our shows have been in every major publication on earth.
0:46:09 But the behind the scenes of that isn’t really reported on.
0:46:12 So there is no red carpet.
0:46:13 It’s a micro budget.
0:46:16 And the interesting thing now is like, because we’ve had so many hits, we are being approached
0:46:21 by all the agencies and management companies offering up like pretty big talent, whether
0:46:25 it’s athletes or A-list actors who basically are upset that they don’t have a digital presence
0:46:26 of their own.
0:46:29 Maybe they want to build a brand long term and a space that they’ve never really talked
0:46:33 about before and they’re positioning their talent is like, can they host a show?
0:46:36 And the only thing that I say to them is basically what you’re saying.
0:46:39 It’s like, if they want a Starwagon on set and they think they’re going to be pampered,
0:46:41 it’s just not the right opportunity.
0:46:45 If they’re really wanting to get their hands dirty and like get in the thick of this thing,
0:46:46 we will make a hit show together.
0:46:50 And you know, that scares certain people away, but it does attract the right crowd.
0:46:53 So did people say, no, not good enough for me?
0:46:56 I think managers know their talent best.
0:46:59 And so they know which of their talent could be open to this idea and not.
0:47:03 I also think that like the other scary thing about TikTok is viewership is public.
0:47:09 And I think a lot of people don’t want people to know how few people listen to their podcast
0:47:13 or watch, you know, watch their show.
0:47:14 Yeah.
0:47:15 It’s so interesting.
0:47:19 Well, I feel like we could go on for hours, but I think I’m going to start to wrap it
0:47:21 up here.
0:47:25 We’ve talked a lot about people working in Hollywood, writers, producers, on a recent
0:47:28 episode on Grofty Markets.
0:47:31 We talked about, you know, what’s going to happen to costume designers and what’s going
0:47:36 to happen to makeup artists, et cetera, and Lionsgate just partnered with an AI company
0:47:37 that’s going to do their storyboarding.
0:47:40 AI is coming.
0:47:46 Do you have any advice to people working in Hollywood who are concerned about their job
0:47:50 security, concerned about the future of entertainment?
0:47:52 What would be your advice to someone in that position?
0:47:54 It’s really hard.
0:47:57 And I say this as a born and raised Angelino.
0:48:02 When I go back home, you can feel the despair.
0:48:06 You know, I don’t think people realize the below the line workers that make every movie
0:48:07 and TV show possible.
0:48:12 They’re not thinking about the costume designers and the set designers and the PAs and the grips
0:48:13 and the gaffers and the truck drivers.
0:48:19 Like it is a industry that is built off the back of middle class workers and you feel that
0:48:23 in LA because restaurants are closing, stores are closing, people aren’t going out the
0:48:26 way that they used to because they have less money in their pocket.
0:48:30 And I don’t think that we can hope that Hollywood’s going to come back.
0:48:32 This might be what it looks like for a very long time.
0:48:38 And so that’s not the most uplifting answer, but it is a reality check that I think a lot
0:48:40 of people need to start having with themselves.
0:48:44 Do you think that they need to just pivot to something else?
0:48:46 They might need to.
0:48:48 Adam is the head coach and co-founder of Gymnasium.
0:48:54 Adam, this was epic and I just agree with all of your texts.
0:48:57 I hate to end it on such a grim note.
0:48:58 It’s good.
0:48:59 Maybe that’s the kick that we need.
0:49:00 I know.
0:49:01 It’s important.
0:49:02 Appreciate your time.
0:49:03 Thank you.
0:49:04 Sorry.
0:49:08 Our producer is Claire Miller.
0:49:12 Our associate producer is Alison Weiss and our engineer is Benjamin Spencer.
0:49:15 Catherine Dillon is our executive producer.
0:49:18 Thank you for listening to First Time Founders from the Vox Media Podcast Network.
0:49:20 Tune in tomorrow for Prodigy Markets.
0:49:30 [Music]
0:49:33 (upbeat music)
0:49:42 [BLANK_AUDIO]
Ed speaks with Adam Faze from Gymnasium, a production company that makes television shows for social media. They discuss the future of television, how to monetize viral videos, and using TikTok to effect policy change.
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