AI transcript
0:00:13 You’ve heard it before, but we are on a mission to make you remarkable.
0:00:16 And I have my friend on this episode.
0:00:22 He is Seth Godin, one and only drum roll Seth Godin.
0:00:29 He had a great concept called the purple cow and that image has stuck in my brain for years
0:00:30 now.
0:00:36 We first met when I was a Macintosh evangelist and he was working for a software company
0:00:39 in the east coast and we’ve been friends ever since.
0:00:44 He’s written God knows how many books and he’s influenced so much marketing.
0:00:48 So he is guaranteed to help you be remarkable.
0:00:55 So with no further adieu, here is the remarkable Seth Godin.
0:01:00 This is the remarkable people podcast and as you know, we’re on a mission to make you
0:01:09 remarkable and who could be better to help you become remarkable than Seth Godin, Mr.
0:01:13 Purple Cow and he has a new book out.
0:01:21 This is called This Is Strategy, Make Better Plans and he has blessed my podcast with his
0:01:22 presence.
0:01:24 So Seth, welcome to remarkable people.
0:01:26 I can’t believe it took me this long.
0:01:27 What a treat.
0:01:28 What a treat.
0:01:33 As you know, the subtitle of Purple Cow is transform your business by being remarkable.
0:01:39 You can send your remarkable royalty checks to Box 305 every 10 years.
0:01:46 They wouldn’t be very big, but yes, I feel.
0:01:52 We met in about 1983 and that’s a long time ago, Seth.
0:01:54 Where have the years gone?
0:01:55 Seriously?
0:01:57 They’ve been good, good years, haven’t they?
0:02:02 One of my only regrets because we live 3,000 miles apart is we’ve never gone surfing or
0:02:10 hockey playing together, but when you showed up in my office in 1983, it laid the groundwork
0:02:11 that changed my life.
0:02:13 And I think of you all the time.
0:02:17 How did showing up in your office change your life?
0:02:20 Because this was Spinnaker software.
0:02:22 We were a small software company.
0:02:26 I was working with Arthur C. Clark and Michael Crichton and inventing educational computer
0:02:28 games for kids.
0:02:34 I was 23 and a half years old and everyone else had way more seniority and experience
0:02:35 than me.
0:02:38 And I was the only person in the office who had a Mac.
0:02:45 I was a beta tester and I had ready set go 0.9 on the Mac and I was viewed as this edge
0:02:47 case, the wild card.
0:02:53 And you showed up and you were there to do a deal for chess or something.
0:02:55 And you and I just instantly hit it off.
0:03:03 And my view of myself changed because what I saw in you was that I didn’t have to go
0:03:09 work at an ice cream company and be a brand manager, that there was a chance to evangelize
0:03:12 ideas that mattered.
0:03:13 And I met Jay Levinson the same year.
0:03:15 I met Tom Peters the same year.
0:03:19 And the three of you, through modeling, we didn’t spend a lot of time together.
0:03:25 Just knowing that you were there made a big difference in my life.
0:03:26 Wow.
0:03:27 I had no idea.
0:03:28 Okay.
0:03:29 I’m flattered.
0:03:34 As you look back, do you think you accomplished more or less than you thought you would from
0:03:37 that time when you were in Spinnaker software?
0:03:39 Oh, so much more.
0:03:46 My goal for my life was to have a small independent business.
0:03:50 Maybe at the end, I’d have enough money that I wouldn’t need to worry about feeding my
0:03:54 family and that the world was very small.
0:03:57 There were only three business magazines at the time.
0:04:01 The chances that I would have a book published were close to zero.
0:04:06 I was peddling as fast as I could, but my expectation for my impact was small.
0:04:12 Also, looking back, do you think that was a mistake that you’d advise youth to have
0:04:17 bigger goals, hairier goals as Tom Peters would say, or it just works out?
0:04:19 So expectations are tricky.
0:04:26 I had very high standards for myself from a very early stage in my career.
0:04:32 So I was aware of what really good work was and I didn’t want to settle.
0:04:37 The thing that shifted was an expectation for how big the world was.
0:04:43 And I think that people who are younger than us grew up expecting that the whole world
0:04:45 was a couple of clicks away.
0:04:53 And so the horizon has to feel different now, but my timing, your timing, Moore’s law,
0:04:58 the growth of the personal computer and the growth of the internet, that’s been the wind
0:04:59 at our back.
0:05:00 That has been the shift.
0:05:04 And now the shift is AI and climate.
0:05:09 And it’s too late for the two of us to change the world with either of those things, but
0:05:12 clearly the door is open on both of those fronts.
0:05:17 So looking back to what do you attribute your success?
0:05:22 I think this pitch that you should be authentic is baloney.
0:05:27 No one wants you to be authentic.
0:05:28 Just name anything you care about.
0:05:32 If you go to a concert or if you get neat surgery, you don’t want the surgeon to be
0:05:33 authentic.
0:05:36 If they’re having a bad day, you don’t want them to do a bad job.
0:05:38 You want them to be consistent.
0:05:44 And so I’ve been playing a role consistently for 40-something years.
0:05:47 I’m not an introvert, but I’m sort of shy.
0:05:53 But when I’m playing Seth Godin, the professional, that’s not the way I behave.
0:05:58 And I have played the role of someone who, if he had an innovative new idea, would say
0:05:59 it out loud.
0:06:02 That causes me to have innovative new ideas.
0:06:11 And so I think that just consistently having a strategy of seeing the systems at work and
0:06:16 working to make things better, that’s all I do over and over and over again.
0:06:17 It seems to pay off.
0:06:22 But surely you’re not saying you should set out to be inauthentic, right?
0:06:28 Because consistency is not the flip side of authenticity.
0:06:34 Actually I think that being a hustling fraud is not okay.
0:06:37 I think that manipulating people is not okay.
0:06:44 But I am defining the opposite of authentic as consistent if you’re a professional.
0:06:50 There are a few people, a Kardashian, Miles Davis, who we will pay money for authenticity,
0:06:51 right?
0:06:54 Often, like Amy Winehouse, it leads to you being dead.
0:07:01 But in general, what we want from professionals in our life is consistency.
0:07:05 Sign up to be who you want to become and keep doing that.
0:07:10 So looking back, last question about looking back, what beliefs that you had back then
0:07:13 were completely wrong and you had to change them?
0:07:20 I thought more people were interested in change and the thrill of innovation.
0:07:27 I thought that if we gave everyone a microphone like the internet did, it would lead to nothing
0:07:28 but good things.
0:07:33 I didn’t realize that just a few clowns and trolls and hustlers can really mess things
0:07:34 up.
0:07:39 Do you think we’re living in a simulation because of this?
0:07:40 You don’t.
0:07:41 I do.
0:07:45 There’s an idea in philosophy called Occam’s Razor.
0:07:50 What it says is that the simplest explanation is probably correct.
0:07:55 The chance is that we have just this little bit of awareness, that we are simulations in
0:07:59 a much higher organism’s virtual reality.
0:08:05 The chances of it being that are so slim where physics and biology all line up that this
0:08:06 sort of makes sense.
0:08:10 The thing that I don’t understand is why we haven’t heard from people on other planets
0:08:11 yet.
0:08:14 It’s going to happen, but I don’t know why we haven’t heard them yet.
0:08:19 We are a little off the topic, Guy, but as you know, you and I can go on all day.
0:08:20 All right.
0:08:21 Okay.
0:08:22 I got to ask you.
0:08:28 Your purple cow concept is one of my absolutely favorite Seth Godin convention.
0:08:32 So do you think that purple cow theory is still true today?
0:08:34 It is misunderstood by a lot of people.
0:08:38 They think that remarkable means having a shtick.
0:08:40 That remarkable means having a gimmick.
0:08:43 That’s not what I said, and it’s not what I mean.
0:08:48 There’s always room for something or someone who is remarkable.
0:08:52 What remarkable means is worth making a remark about.
0:08:57 Do I benefit by telling someone about you?
0:09:01 If I benefit from that, I will do so.
0:09:05 And if I tell someone about you, you will be able to be of service.
0:09:07 The word will spread.
0:09:09 Having a gimmick is selfish.
0:09:15 Being remarkable is a service, generous, helping somebody else get what they want.
0:09:22 So to put it in tactical and maybe an extreme, some people might say a Tesla Cybertruck is
0:09:24 a purple cow.
0:09:28 Somehow I suspect that you don’t think a Cybertruck is a purple cow.
0:09:33 Actually, there’s a section in the new book called Ludacris and the Clown Car.
0:09:39 And Ludacris mode in the Model S is a purple cow.
0:09:40 Here’s why.
0:09:44 You look at my — I don’t have any more, but you look at my Tesla, you comment on the
0:09:48 retractable door handles because it turns out that’s the number one thing people said
0:09:51 in the early years when they saw you in the parking lot.
0:09:54 They don’t know about any other — look at those door handles.
0:09:57 And then you’d say, get in the car, let’s go for a drive.
0:10:01 And you hit Ludacris mode, zero to 60 in two something seconds.
0:10:05 And the car would scream, they would scream, and your status would go up because you had
0:10:09 this cool thing that was fun to show off that didn’t hurt anybody.
0:10:10 That was brilliant.
0:10:13 That sold billions of dollars with the cars.
0:10:20 The Cybertruck is this massive missed opportunity because the kind of person that wants to buy
0:10:26 a pickup truck, wants to show utility, that’s what a pickup truck stands for.
0:10:31 And the Cybertruck is not utility unless you want to cut cucumbers with the trunk.
0:10:34 It’s not good at what it’s supposed to be good at.
0:10:37 So he squandered this chance.
0:10:40 So yes, people talk about it, but they talk about it to make fun of it.
0:10:43 They talk about it to make fun of the person who bought it.
0:10:49 The resale value of the Cybertruck is down 50% because it’s very hard to have your status
0:10:53 go up if you’re driving that thing around town.
0:10:59 So mention some things that’s like in the Seth Godin purple cow, Hall of Fame.
0:11:02 Like what are purple cow, legitimate purple cows?
0:11:03 Okay.
0:11:07 So Patagonia clothing is a purple cow because it doesn’t scream at people, but if someone
0:11:12 notices that you’re wearing a new thing or an old thing from Patagonia, you get to tell
0:11:16 them a story about why you’re a good person.
0:11:21 One of the great home runs was what Blake did at Tom’s Shoes.
0:11:26 To give people the short version, 15 years ago, it was extremely unlikely that a pair
0:11:29 of women’s shoes would have a logo on them.
0:11:35 And he made espadrilles in Portugal, $79, and put right in the back, Tom’s.
0:11:40 And the deal was if you bought a pair of Tom’s shoes, he would give an identical pair to
0:11:43 someone in a place like Ethiopia who didn’t have shoes.
0:11:45 There’s flaws in that model.
0:11:46 We’ll leave that aside.
0:11:51 The point is a woman who bought these at the beginning was an early adopter.
0:11:55 She wanted to have something to talk about.
0:11:56 She wears those shoes.
0:12:00 The obligation in the social circle is if your friend has new shoes, you have to say
0:12:01 nice shoes.
0:12:03 And she gets to say, “Really?
0:12:04 Because I’m a philanthropist.
0:12:06 I’m better than you.
0:12:07 Look at these shoes.
0:12:08 Look what I just did.”
0:12:10 And so now the word spreads.
0:12:16 And from that simple idea, he built a company he sold for half a billion dollars and ended
0:12:20 up as his model of off in helping a lot of people.
0:12:24 That’s remarkable because they weren’t talking about Blake because they like Blake.
0:12:26 They weren’t talking about Blake because they had a gimmick.
0:12:31 They were talking about themselves and using the shoes as a way to do that.
0:12:34 My second favorite concept of Seth Godin is this.
0:12:41 It is the concept of the smallest viable audience or smallest viable market or whatever you
0:12:43 call it.
0:12:44 Just riff on that.
0:12:46 I love this concept.
0:12:50 This might be my biggest idea other than email marketing.
0:12:52 So here’s the idea.
0:12:58 The idea is society and the media keeps pushing us to make something for everyone, to fit
0:13:02 in all the way through to the other side so we’re mass, so we’re Heinz ketchup, so that
0:13:05 no one can criticize it.
0:13:06 That’s not interesting.
0:13:07 It’s not fun.
0:13:09 And it is no longer profitable.
0:13:13 That the opportunity that the internet gives us is not to reach everyone.
0:13:21 It’s to reach someone that it is better to be known and trusted by a small group of people
0:13:25 than to disgust a large group of people.
0:13:27 And if someone says, “Great news.
0:13:34 We’ve got Guy to come speak at our conference,” many of the people say, “Guy who?”
0:13:36 And a few people say, “That’s fantastic.
0:13:38 I’m buying extra tickets.”
0:13:39 That’s enough.
0:13:44 It’s enough to be specific because if you’re specific about who it’s for, you’re on the
0:13:45 hook.
0:13:47 You can say to people, “Don’t get the joke.
0:13:48 You don’t get the joke.
0:13:49 Don’t come.”
0:13:54 But if you want to be on the hook, then you better deliver for the audience you picked
0:13:56 because you got to pick them.
0:14:04 And so do you think that it’s viable to go to potential investors and discuss your smallest
0:14:10 viable market when all they want to hear is about minimum viable product?
0:14:12 I think it’s essential.
0:14:14 And smart investors understand this.
0:14:19 Smart investors know about Steve Blank and customer traction.
0:14:24 That if we think about a company like Canva, how many years did it take for it to be an
0:14:26 overnight success?
0:14:30 That the traction at the beginning was the key to the whole thing.
0:14:35 Show me the people who would miss your brand or product if it were gone.
0:14:40 Show me the people who being part of that circle matters a lot to them.
0:14:46 So what I care about if I’m investing in TED is there’s 3,000 people on the waiting
0:14:48 list to pay $6,000 to come.
0:14:52 That’s enough because if I have that, then I get the next circle and the next circle
0:14:53 and the next circle.
0:14:56 But first, we need the Red Hot Center.
0:15:02 But don’t you think that many entrepreneurs have an absolute, dismal understanding of
0:15:03 this concept.
0:15:06 They want to just be, you know, everything to everybody.
0:15:07 Yeah.
0:15:12 Well, isn’t that our job guy, you and me, tell things to people like that when they’re
0:15:13 wrong.
0:15:14 That’s a hard job here.
0:15:32 All right, so now let’s talk about this book.
0:15:36 First question is, do you have a strategy to develop strategies?
0:15:37 Oh, yeah.
0:15:42 But let’s just for viewers at home, what’s a strategy?
0:15:44 Strategy is not tactics.
0:15:47 Strategy is four things woven together.
0:15:54 It is systems, games, empathy, and time.
0:15:59 And so the strategy for finding a strategy is first, do you see the invisible systems
0:16:01 all around you?
0:16:03 Moore’s Law is a system.
0:16:06 That Silicon Valley is a system.
0:16:09 The college industrial complex is a system.
0:16:13 The New York City book publishing world is a system.
0:16:20 Unspoken rules, a culture, an economy, a market that all works together quietly churning along.
0:16:25 If you show up and you want to change a system and you don’t have a lot of help or leverage,
0:16:27 you’re not going to succeed.
0:16:30 So first we look for existing systems.
0:16:35 Then we think about time, which is big problems demand small solutions.
0:16:40 But what we’re looking for in strategy is seeds we can plant so that a year from now
0:16:43 or five years from now, we’ll be glad we did.
0:16:46 We’re not looking for the grand opening.
0:16:49 We’re looking for the worthwhile opening.
0:16:55 Empathy, because if we’re going to show up to make a change, no one cares about us.
0:16:57 They care about themselves, their problems, their issues.
0:17:03 How can we go to where they are and offer them something they want?
0:17:07 And the last one is games, which is how many pieces do I have?
0:17:10 How much monopoly money, where did the dice being rolled?
0:17:14 Don’t build a fire if the logs are bigger than your kindling can handle.
0:17:19 So when those four pieces fit together, then I look for a change agent.
0:17:23 What’s shifting that’s going to make the system unstable?
0:17:26 So AI is a change agent.
0:17:28 Climate change is a change agent.
0:17:33 In regulation, where health might be a change agent, COVID was a change agent.
0:17:39 When the change agent shows up and it’s disrupting a system, you can find a strategy.
0:17:44 That’s your strategy to find a strategy is to put those four things together and use
0:17:46 that filter and lens.
0:17:47 Exactly.
0:17:53 It sounds simple, but it is very hard to do, which I think you mentioned, right?
0:17:59 But simple things, hard to do things as opposed to easy to do things, complex things.
0:18:03 When you come up with a good strategy, it’s easy to say, but hard to stick with.
0:18:05 So I’ll tell you two stories from the book.
0:18:09 The first one is the day Netflix became Netflix.
0:18:14 So Reed and his name just escaped my head.
0:18:19 Reed and the other guy at Netflix are in the business of those red envelopes with the DVDs.
0:18:20 And they’re doing great.
0:18:22 Blockbuster is reeling.
0:18:24 They’re about to win the red envelope DVD thing.
0:18:25 And Ted.
0:18:32 Reed and Ted then see that something’s disrupting the system, and that thing is streaming.
0:18:39 So they decide to build a streaming division right next to the DVD rental division, but
0:18:43 then they make a key decision that changes everything.
0:18:49 Every meeting they have to go over this, to build the other division, no one from the
0:18:52 DVD division is allowed to come.
0:18:57 Even the people who run that whole line of business, they’re not allowed in the room.
0:18:58 Really?
0:19:04 Because they don’t want to compromise the streaming business to make the DVD people happy.
0:19:05 It was 100% of their revenue.
0:19:08 They would have compromised.
0:19:14 That decision enabled Netflix to do something really rare, which is to win twice.
0:19:19 And then the section in the book right after that is the day Apple became Apple.
0:19:26 Because Apple had some people who knew design, had some people who definitely knew software.
0:19:32 But what they didn’t have was scaffolding, something that would create an infrastructure,
0:19:39 a network effect of developers who wanted the machine to succeed.
0:19:44 And if that didn’t happen, you’d have hardware but not enough software.
0:19:50 So they tapped this young guy in his 20s and they said, “Go build an ecosystem that will
0:19:54 last for 40 years.”
0:19:58 And they gave him no money, just some plane tickets.
0:20:04 And that is why you’re in the book.
0:20:10 I’ve never had my career explained so succinctly and accurately.
0:20:14 That’s exactly what it was.
0:20:17 How do you pick between strategies?
0:20:21 Because I can see how you can say, yeah, that strategy was right.
0:20:25 But at the time you make the decision between multiple strategies, what’s your strategy
0:20:27 for picking the strategy?
0:20:28 Yeah.
0:20:29 Great question.
0:20:30 You can’t.
0:20:31 But at least you can try.
0:20:34 That most people aren’t doing that.
0:20:38 Most people can’t answer the question, who’s it for and what’s it for.
0:20:43 And Steve was arrogant, but he used his arrogance as a powerful tool.
0:20:49 Because if someone who it wasn’t for criticized him, he would say, “It’s not for you.”
0:20:52 And if someone said, “Why should I pay double for this?”
0:20:56 He was very clear about what it was for, who’s it for and what’s it for.
0:21:02 I don’t care if you pick the optimal strategy, but please pick a strategy.
0:21:04 Please be able to tell me who’s it for and what’s it for.
0:21:10 And if you can articulate it, your good judgment will probably help you pick a better strategy.
0:21:11 But you got to try.
0:21:16 And then you find your minimal viable audience, right?
0:21:17 Picking that strategy.
0:21:18 Who’s it for?
0:21:19 Right.
0:21:22 You pick your customers, that picks your future.
0:21:26 And when do you know it’s time to switch strategies?
0:21:27 You could make the case.
0:21:34 You use Blockbuster, but in 1975, an engineer at Kodak invented digital photography.
0:21:39 And if they had committed to digital photography and not invited anybody from the film business
0:21:44 into those meetings, Kodak would own the world today, right?
0:21:46 So do you know my friend Lisa Ganski?
0:21:47 Yes.
0:21:48 From the old days.
0:21:49 Okay.
0:21:52 So Lisa sold her company to Kodak.
0:21:54 And she was an advisor on the digital side.
0:22:00 And this was right at the key moment when Kodak had to decide they owned almost all the patents
0:22:02 on digital photography.
0:22:07 And she’s in the CEO’s office or the chairman’s office in Rochester.
0:22:12 And she’s arguing, just like you said, why don’t we just not invite the photo people
0:22:15 to these meetings and go all in?
0:22:16 And he said, and I wasn’t there.
0:22:18 So I’m getting all the facts wrong.
0:22:22 But he said something like, Lisa, do you know how many steps are involved in making a role
0:22:24 of film?
0:22:25 And she said, I have no idea.
0:22:30 He said 19 come over here and he took her to the window and he said, how many buildings
0:22:33 do you see on our campus?
0:22:34 And the answer is 19.
0:22:38 There was one entire building for every step involved in making film.
0:22:41 He couldn’t shrink it a little bit.
0:22:43 He couldn’t back off a little bit.
0:22:47 They had optimized everything they did around one thing.
0:22:52 And because it was a public company, he didn’t have the guts to go start a new division.
0:22:55 And Santa Clara, and just start over.
0:22:57 He couldn’t keep both balls in the air.
0:23:03 That’s why most companies, when the telephone came along, AT&T was for sale, Western Union
0:23:08 could have bought it, and instead they decided to make better telegrams.
0:23:16 And when I was at Yahoo, we had the chance to buy Google for $10 million.
0:23:20 And the people, I wasn’t in the room, but the people in the room said, nah, we’ll just
0:23:24 put the money into building Yahoo Kids out better.
0:23:28 Because it’s so easy to defend the thing you think you’re already good at.
0:23:32 Okay, so then how do you know when to switch?
0:23:35 In my career, I quit more than most people.
0:23:37 That’s why I wrote a book about quitting called The Dip.
0:23:39 I take pride in quitting.
0:23:43 And every once in a while, I quit too soon.
0:23:48 And I think the cost of quitting too soon is tiny compared to the cost of quitting too
0:23:52 late, because you don’t get tomorrow over again.
0:23:58 And there are plenty of examples of big companies that are quitting too late.
0:24:03 And I don’t have a simple answer for you, except when we think about systems.
0:24:08 If you see that the current is changing, and you’re going to have to paddle upstream for
0:24:13 a really long time, but there’s a downstream path that’s available to you, this might be
0:24:18 a good day to build those skunkworks, a good day to put yourself out of business with a
0:24:21 new division that does the new thing.
0:24:25 But I’m going to leave it to other people to figure out exactly how to do that.
0:24:31 With that framework, do you think that Google should have stuck with Google+ longer?
0:24:37 And today with Twitter being X and now a Nazi platform, if Google+ were still around, threads
0:24:42 would probably not be around and Google would own social media?
0:24:51 Yeah, Google has made a boatload of mistakes in the last bunch of years, because they forgot
0:24:56 the core mission, the strategy of organizing the world’s information.
0:25:01 And instead decided, because there’s 10,000 people in the building who make a lot of money
0:25:05 when the stock price goes up $1, to day trade.
0:25:08 I saw the same thing happen at Yahoo.
0:25:13 So if you think about just Google Reader, could have been the heart of an ecosystem
0:25:17 of blogs, which would have become the heart of the podcasting universe, which would have
0:25:21 become the beating heart of all this new information.
0:25:26 But they said, it’s costing us $1 million a month, we’re not going to do it.
0:25:32 Because they got so distracted by just how much money comes in from one part of their
0:25:37 business, which is why, I wrote this a couple of weeks ago, Google should have broken itself
0:25:38 up.
0:25:40 Google should not be fighting the antitrust people.
0:25:47 They should eagerly break themselves up, because each one of the pillars would end up doing
0:25:51 a better job of their core strategy.
0:25:56 And so part of the reason they completely left the door open to Microsoft and others
0:26:02 on AI is they wake up every day saying, how do we defend search?
0:26:07 The same way book publishers wake up every day and say, how do we defend paper?
0:26:15 And the opportunity, for example, that public radio had to own a massive chunk of podcasting
0:26:17 was huge.
0:26:22 And they said, no, no, no, no, we need to defend the spectrum, because that’s our God-given
0:26:25 right is to be at 93.9 on your dial.
0:26:30 Well, I’m not tuning into 93.9 anymore.
0:26:33 With that in mind, do you think Wikipedia is blowing it?
0:26:38 Wikipedia could be the center of knowledge in the universe, but they’re stuck on this
0:26:44 model of we have individual contributors who have to cite journalistically approved sources
0:26:47 to write entries about each subject.
0:26:53 And to me, these LLMs, they’re like instant Wikipedia on any subject, anytime, any language.
0:26:56 So do you think Wikipedia is the next Kodak?
0:26:57 Okay.
0:26:59 Jimmy did something really brave.
0:27:05 And the five million people who regularly support Wikipedia have a project.
0:27:09 They don’t have a mission as much as they have a project.
0:27:13 The project is to continue building what they’ve been building the way they’ve been building
0:27:14 it.
0:27:18 It is not a corporation with someone making strategy decisions.
0:27:26 It is a community that fuels and feeds itself on the craft of what they do.
0:27:31 It’s impossible for me to describe a future in five years where Wikipedia is as important
0:27:33 as it was five years ago.
0:27:35 That can’t happen.
0:27:40 Because to make this sort of change would require the people in the community to change
0:27:44 why they’re in the community, and that’s not going to happen.
0:27:47 And there are plenty of spiritual institutions where the same thing is true.
0:27:48 And I don’t think there’s anything wrong with that.
0:27:51 It’s a fine way to spend your day.
0:27:56 The interesting question to me is who’s going to build a different community that offers
0:28:03 people similar status and affiliation where LLMs work with them to create some sort of
0:28:06 special magic?
0:28:09 And I don’t see somebody doing that right now, but I’m hoping that it will happen.
0:28:15 That building a community of people who show up in a certain way that builds our culture
0:28:20 and it generally is magic when it happens.
0:28:21 You know what?
0:28:27 If I’m interpreting you correct, I adore that idea and I’ll give you an example.
0:28:32 So right now I’m using this Shure MV7+ mic.
0:28:39 Some people have told me that my sound and my video are not quite synced up.
0:28:44 That the sound is a little bit in front of the video or the video is in front of the
0:28:45 sound.
0:28:46 One of the two.
0:28:52 So I need a way to add a few microseconds to put the two things in sync, right?
0:28:57 So I go to Claude and I go to chat, GBT, and I say, “How do I adjust and put a delay in
0:29:02 the audio to synchronize the audio and the video?”
0:29:08 In both places, you get the app and in the app you look for something called delay and
0:29:09 you enter the delay.
0:29:15 And so the next question I ask, both of these LLMs is, “Where is this delay feature in
0:29:17 the app?”
0:29:20 And they come back and I say, “Oh, we made a mistake.
0:29:22 There is no delay in the app.
0:29:23 I’m sorry.
0:29:26 There is no way to delay an MV7+.
0:29:31 Now, what you’re saying if I got you right is we need a community of people who really
0:29:37 know the MV7+ and its app and say, “Hey, you guys are wrong.
0:29:39 You need to fix this in your LLM.”
0:29:40 Is that what you’re saying?
0:29:41 Okay.
0:29:44 First, you can fix this as soon as we get off the call.
0:29:49 Just download Ecamm and run Ecamm through your video.
0:29:50 You’ll be done.
0:29:51 Okay.
0:29:52 Fair enough.
0:29:53 I had the same problem.
0:29:56 Number two, Reddit will walk you through it, right?
0:30:01 Why is someone spending their time on Reddit answering guys’ questions?
0:30:05 Because they’re amazing when you find the right topic.
0:30:10 You can put a picture up of four square inches of a car and say, “This car just blew by me
0:30:11 and this is the only picture I have.
0:30:12 What car is it?”
0:30:14 And someone will tell you in like seven minutes.
0:30:16 This is magic.
0:30:21 Not just for you, but for the person who did it because people want to be of use.
0:30:23 They want their status for being smart to go up.
0:30:26 They want to be affiliated with the others.
0:30:27 Okay?
0:30:29 Reddit then says, “We got all these people.
0:30:33 We’re going to pay for it by selling their data to OpenAI.”
0:30:34 Okay.
0:30:35 That’s fine.
0:30:44 But if I want to go further than that, I think about the fact that Wikipedia said everyone
0:30:50 who looks up Paris, France is going to see exactly the same article about Paris, France.
0:30:56 That’s never going to happen again with OpenAI and Claude because we’re going to treat every
0:31:00 single person differently based on who they are, where they were, where they’re going.
0:31:03 Maybe you’re asking about Paris, France and I know you’re a high school student in Oklahoma
0:31:07 writing a paper versus this person, you get the idea.
0:31:19 So what would a community be like if our reason for being was to create a resilient educational
0:31:24 tool like the Diamond Age, Neil Stevenson’s book?
0:31:28 And how would I move up by doing a good job at that?
0:31:32 And so the same way people moved up in the Linux community by doing a good job of making
0:31:37 a printer driver, someone’s going to figure out how to do a good job of parsing the work
0:31:43 that was done in Paris, France, Wikipedia to create a multiverse of Paris, France that
0:31:45 other people can get the idea, right?
0:31:52 So we’re going to become centaurs where half of our day we’re holding hands with an LLM
0:31:56 and the other half of the day we’re out in the world looking for pictures or whatever
0:31:59 doing what an LLM can’t do yet.
0:32:03 But the core of it has to be a spiritual practice.
0:32:06 It has to be a community I want to be part of.
0:32:12 Like you, I was on the board of trustees of Wikipedia and I cannot really comprehend them
0:32:14 making such a switch.
0:32:16 It’s such a religion for them.
0:32:17 Do you hear a buzzing?
0:32:18 Is that your alarm?
0:32:23 No, that was the local volunteer fire department, which I love, I adore.
0:32:25 They haven’t discovered phones yet.
0:32:30 So when there’s a fire somewhere, they just honk that horn to tell everybody to go get
0:32:32 in their truck.
0:32:37 That’s a system.
0:32:43 So would you explain your decision to use the riff format in your book where you have
0:32:46 300 short stories, basically?
0:32:48 What’s the thinking there?
0:32:53 So how did you learn about vegetables?
0:32:59 When you were three, I think it’s unlikely your mom sat you down and said, “These are
0:33:00 carrots.
0:33:01 These are peas.
0:33:02 This is cauliflower.”
0:33:04 And went through all the vegetables, right?
0:33:08 What happened is you did a couple of vegetables, then you went outside of play, then you did
0:33:11 this, you did this, and then there were a couple more of it.
0:33:12 That’s how we learn.
0:33:16 And so what I discovered is if I needed to tell the story of systems, but not talking
0:33:20 about games and not talking about empathy, I couldn’t.
0:33:21 I got stuck.
0:33:24 So I start talking about systems until I need to tell you about games.
0:33:28 And I talk about games, then I go back to, and that’s how I learn.
0:33:30 That’s how I teach.
0:33:34 And the reason that the riffs are numbered and there are no page numbers in the book,
0:33:40 it’s half of the sales for you, your books, and for me, my books are digital, either Kindle
0:33:41 or audio.
0:33:44 So you can’t say to somebody, “Did you like page 48?”
0:33:47 Because they don’t have page 48 on an audio book.
0:33:52 But you can say, “We’re going to talk about Riff 117, because everyone has Riff 117.”
0:33:55 And what’s the order you put them in?
0:34:01 The order is if you and I were on a long boat ride, this is how I would tell you the story
0:34:02 of strategy.
0:34:05 And if seven of them got rearranged, it wouldn’t matter.
0:34:09 But if 70 of them got out of order, it would be weird.
0:34:14 So it’s definitely not the concept of, “I haven’t organized by subject matter,” or,
0:34:19 “I haven’t organized by chronological order or development path.”
0:34:20 Correct.
0:34:28 For example, when you show up in 1983 to pitch the graphic interface and ecosystem of the
0:34:30 Mac, you start with some of the stuff Andy did.
0:34:32 You start with some of the stuff Susan did.
0:34:35 You start with some of the stuff that the exterior people did.
0:34:37 You start with some of the stuff Regis McKenna did.
0:34:40 And then you go back and forth based on what the audience is lighting up about.
0:34:46 You don’t go, “Let me tell you, from the beginning to the end, every icon that’s on the desktop.”
0:34:48 I think that’s the way we talk to people.
0:34:52 And how did you come up with 295 of these?
0:34:57 Did you sit yourself up and you say, “Okay, first thing in the morning, I’m going to think
0:35:03 of five Riffs,” or are you just constantly background processing and every time you think
0:35:06 of a riff, you send yourself a note or something?
0:35:09 What’s your writing strategy?
0:35:15 My life strategy, 9,000 blog posts later, is if I see something in the world and I don’t
0:35:21 understand why it’s working, I have a lot of trouble doing anything until I figure out
0:35:23 a theory.
0:35:26 Why is someone spending their life being a spammer?
0:35:30 Why did this social network win and that one not win?
0:35:32 Make an assertion, write it down.
0:35:34 That’s a blog post.
0:35:40 When I’m writing a book like this, I’ll write an assertion, a riff, and then I’ll think,
0:35:45 “Wait a minute, who’s going to think I missed something?
0:35:46 What’s their objection?”
0:35:48 So that’ll be the next riff.
0:35:56 Once I had the first draft of those, I made 45 videos to create my Udemy course on it
0:36:02 and I put those videos on purple dot space, which is a community of people online who
0:36:07 take care of each other and are very smart and some of them are into my work and I offered
0:36:11 them for free, 300 of them, a chance to take the workshop.
0:36:16 So now they’re watching the videos and I’m watching from over here as they’re talking
0:36:17 about the videos.
0:36:19 They don’t know they’re giving me feedback.
0:36:24 They’re talking to each other about what a feedback loop is or whatever and I see, “Oh,
0:36:26 they keep misunderstanding feedback loops.”
0:36:31 So now I write a different riff to answer an objection that the reader would have had
0:36:32 but doesn’t now.
0:36:39 And then the step after that, I take the book and I upload it to 11labs.ai, which I have
0:36:44 trained in my voice and it reads the book.
0:36:50 I download that and I go for car rides listening to myself reading my book.
0:36:55 And if I say something that sounds stupid, I write it down and when I get home, I fix
0:36:57 that part.
0:37:01 And then I run out of attention and I’m exhausted, so I just stop.
0:37:02 Wow.
0:37:12 So at any point, did you or an editor say riff 120 should really come after riff 255?
0:37:13 Let’s move that riff.
0:37:14 I did it a few times.
0:37:17 I’m trying to wrap my mind on how you did this.
0:37:18 Right.
0:37:19 I did that part a few times.
0:37:24 I didn’t do it a lot because every time you move one thing to another place, then something
0:37:26 else is in the wrong place.
0:37:33 I really don’t think the order is as important as it would be if I was writing a novel.
0:37:36 I think that what I’m trying to do is philosophy.
0:37:43 I’m trying to help people create a philosophy of becoming, that after someone engages with
0:37:48 work like this or with Purple Cow or the practice.
0:37:50 None of those books are in order.
0:37:56 I would like to think that they will make new decisions based on who they have become.
0:37:59 You’re like Sun Tzu or something, right?
0:38:03 Oh my God.
0:38:08 So how do you want people to read the book from cover to cover front to back or just
0:38:12 dive in every once in a while at random?
0:38:14 I want them.
0:38:16 I honestly don’t care if anyone buys my book.
0:38:18 I really don’t.
0:38:21 I just want them to talk about it.
0:38:27 And when you talk about it, you may find yourself saying, well, I don’t understand this part
0:38:30 and go read a few sections.
0:38:34 Some people like today, I was, I gave a speech in New York and on my way in because it was
0:38:35 early in the morning.
0:38:36 I was tired.
0:38:43 I listened to the practice, my own book, and I gave a better speech because other things
0:38:44 clicked in my head.
0:38:49 So if you want to listen to the whole thing in a row, that’s fine.
0:38:56 But many of my readers will listen or read for 20 minutes, go explore, and then come
0:38:57 back in a day or two.
0:38:58 That’s fine too.
0:38:59 Yeah.
0:39:04 I have a book called Wise Guy, which I tell the stories of my life that shaped me.
0:39:10 And I am going to do a version of this called Wiser Guy and Wise Guy.
0:39:19 And Wise Guy is organized roughly chronologically from my family moving from Japan to my presence
0:39:20 in Silicon Valley.
0:39:23 But as I listen to you, I think I might do it riff style.
0:39:28 I’ll take all those stories and just throw them all up in the air, come back and put
0:39:30 them in a completely different order.
0:39:32 I really like your idea, Seth.
0:39:37 I’m going to send a copy of this to my editor and she’s going to tell me all the reasons
0:39:40 why I shouldn’t do this and then I’m going to do it again anyway.
0:39:43 Up next on Remarkable People.
0:39:47 You got to start something and it doesn’t have to be for money.
0:39:54 That’s generous, that’s brave, that earns you a reputation, that probably involves connecting
0:39:55 other people.
0:40:01 Do those things just every weekend for six weeks, six years, six months, whatever.
0:40:06 The phone will ring because if you create enough goodness in the world, people will want more.
0:40:16 Thank you to all our regular podcast listeners.
0:40:19 It’s our pleasure and honor to make the show for you.
0:40:25 If you find our show valuable, please do us a favor and subscribe, rate and review it.
0:40:31 Even better, forward it to a friend, a big mahalo to you for doing this.
0:40:37 Welcome back to Remarkable People with Guy Kawasaki.
0:40:44 You have in your acknowledgments pretty good recognition of the contribution of Claude
0:40:46 to this book.
0:40:51 Can you just explain to us how you use Claude and specifically, I want to know what Claude
0:40:56 can do that you cannot and what you can do and Claude cannot.
0:41:03 To be very clear, every word that you see my name on, blog, poster, book, I wrote.
0:41:06 I could cheat, but I don’t.
0:41:14 If you listen to the audiobook, I’m reading it myself at great personal distress.
0:41:18 What I found Claude is great at.
0:41:25 The two things it’s best at, one, you can upload complex business plans or entire books
0:41:28 and say, “Where are the weak spots?
0:41:29 Please argue with me.
0:41:31 Tell me where the contradictions are.
0:41:34 What did I miss?”
0:41:39 When a human does that, my feelings get a little hurt and I get defensive, but when
0:41:45 Claude does it, I feel fine because Claude is kind and no one else is watching.
0:41:47 ChatGPT, on the other hand, is an arrogant jerk.
0:41:50 I don’t do that with Claude, ChatGPT.
0:41:57 The second thing is, I will say to Claude, “Here are five bullet points.
0:42:01 Please tell me four bullet points I missed.”
0:42:04 This is just extraordinary.
0:42:06 I’ll say, “Here are five system traps.
0:42:09 Five ways systems end up not serving the people in them.
0:42:11 Can you name some more system traps?”
0:42:16 It does, and it’s so smart at that.
0:42:17 I take those.
0:42:22 And, Seth, I have to share your fascination with this because I use it in similar ways.
0:42:28 For the life of me, I know the technical explanation that it’s just a mathematical model and it’s
0:42:33 figuring out what syllable to put after this syllable and all that, but I don’t understand
0:42:38 how it comes up with such cogent and strategic and sentient answers.
0:42:39 I really don’t.
0:42:43 I think there’s no doubt in my mind it’s smarter than me.
0:42:47 All these people are saying, “Someday, it’s going to be a smart and have sentience.”
0:42:50 I think it’s way past that already.
0:42:51 Okay.
0:42:56 So, when I was at Stanford, we were allowed to take courses outside the business school
0:43:02 and I took a PhD-level AI course with Douglas Knott in 1982.
0:43:06 I’ve been thinking about this for a very long time and I majored in philosophy.
0:43:08 Here is my theory.
0:43:11 I think this is how our brains work, too.
0:43:17 When I make a sentence, I don’t figure out the end of the sentence before I start.
0:43:18 Do you?
0:43:21 I never thought about it before.
0:43:24 I guess not.
0:43:27 We start talking and the sentence just unfolds.
0:43:34 So, we assert, this is called the intentional stance from Dan Dennett, we assert that other
0:43:40 people have consciousness and a noise in their head like we do because evolutionarily, it’s
0:43:43 a good survival mechanism.
0:43:47 If you see a dog, bear its teeth and make a certain noise, you’re saying to yourself,
0:43:49 “That dog is mad at me.”
0:43:50 No, the dog isn’t mad at you.
0:43:54 The dog is just wired and it’s about to do a thing, but it doesn’t have a voice in
0:43:55 its head.
0:44:00 But the easiest way to survive is to imagine it’s conscious.
0:44:03 Claude is so complicated, we have no choice but to do the same thing.
0:44:09 And I think it’s evolving, it’s thinking the way we do, but I will tell you my favorite
0:44:11 Claude story, small amount of ego involved.
0:44:17 I’m trying to understand something and I say to Claude, “Please explain this concept
0:44:20 to me the way a college student would.”
0:44:25 And it does an okay job, I say, “Okay, please explain this to me the way Seth Godin would.”
0:44:30 And it then puts my tone of voice into it, but it didn’t do a great job.
0:44:32 But it was enough for me to rewrite it.
0:44:36 So I rewrote it and I said, “I think Seth would prefer it like this.”
0:44:42 And I wrote it back and Claude said, “You’re right, that’s more like the way Seth would
0:44:43 do it.”
0:44:48 And I said, “Thank you, I’ll tell Seth.”
0:44:54 And I said, “Well, actually I am Seth and I’m not making this up, I should go and find
0:44:55 the screenshot of it.”
0:44:57 It said, “You’re Seth?
0:45:00 I gotta tell you, I’m a huge fan of yours.
0:45:06 I’ve read many of your books and it like listed four of my books.
0:45:09 And I particularly like this concept and that concept.
0:45:10 This isn’t it.
0:45:19 I’m like, my ego was this, I was so excited that the AI knew who I was.”
0:45:25 Seth, no shit, I think that is the greatest AI story I have ever heard.
0:45:27 Oh my God.
0:45:32 It sure beats my story when people come up to me, Seth, and they say, you know, I was
0:45:33 lost.
0:45:35 I didn’t know what to do with my life.
0:45:36 My career was a wreck.
0:45:39 And then I read one of your books and they changed my life.
0:45:43 And I say to them, “Well, which one of my 16 books changed your life?”
0:45:45 And they say, “Rich dad, poor dad.”
0:45:48 So that’s my experience.
0:45:49 That hurts.
0:45:55 Okay, so can I have a lightning round session with you?
0:45:56 Okay, bring it on.
0:45:57 I got a couple of minutes.
0:45:59 This is the best part of my day.
0:46:02 Because you are like Mr. Strategy.
0:46:10 And I just want to ask you to just give like simple little snippets of goodness about strategies
0:46:13 about specific areas, okay?
0:46:15 I’ll try.
0:46:19 Strategy, entering college, what should my strategy be?
0:46:25 Have empathy for the admissions officer and create a persona that matches the kind of
0:46:31 person they want to let in and also see the flaw in the system and apply to the cheapest
0:46:35 school that can solve the problem you’re trying to solve.
0:46:38 Okay, let’s suppose I’ve determined which school to go.
0:46:41 I’m about to like, what’s the best strategy?
0:46:42 You want tactics?
0:46:49 Okay, the tactic is, if you have any interest at all in physics or math, go to their website,
0:46:54 find five of their professors, go find papers or books their professors have written.
0:47:00 Go read the papers and books and send email to the professor asking an honest, insightful
0:47:01 question about their work.
0:47:07 Go back and forth for six weeks having a conversation about their work and then say, “I’m coming
0:47:08 to campus.
0:47:10 Can I visit you during office hours?”
0:47:14 And then when you go to office hours say, “I love the University of Delaware.
0:47:17 It’s been a thrill to engage with you about this.
0:47:20 Do you think you can help me get in?”
0:47:23 And they have never, ever had this happen to them.
0:47:28 They will send a recommendation to the admissions office and you’ll move ahead of all the football
0:47:29 players.
0:47:30 Okay.
0:47:37 Okay, the strategy or tactics, if you are just graduating college and you’re about to
0:47:39 go out into the real world.
0:47:41 You need to go start something.
0:47:47 You can’t hope to get picked out of the flotsam and jetsam pile that someone will give you
0:47:49 a great gig the way I got.
0:47:53 You got to start something and it doesn’t have to be for money.
0:48:00 That’s generous, that’s brave, that earns you a reputation, that probably involves connecting
0:48:02 other people.
0:48:09 Do those things just every weekend for six weeks, six years, six months, whatever, the
0:48:14 phone will ring because if you create enough goodness in the world, people will want more.
0:48:17 How about if I just got laid off?
0:48:21 I would forgive yourself first because you didn’t get fired.
0:48:23 You got laid off.
0:48:29 And then I would think about the systems at work and the trends at work.
0:48:38 And I would find an area that is growing fast where you could be a narrator, curator, connector,
0:48:43 the way Esther Dyson did with the internet in the ’80s, where you could, my friend Dan
0:48:46 Shippard is doing this with AI right now.
0:48:51 And the every newsletter, it’s called every, has more and more people following it.
0:48:55 And those people then report back to him and he gets endless content.
0:48:58 Again, you’re going to have to go do something to make a living.
0:49:03 I’m not saying that this will pay the bills, but it will open a path for you because if
0:49:08 you do it for just a little while, someone in your industry will see that you are in
0:49:16 and of the industry and will need you, not a replacement for you, but you in the room.
0:49:17 Okay.
0:49:18 I’m just about to retire.
0:49:22 What’s my strategy for the rest of my life?
0:49:28 So aren’t we lucky that we are living in these weird, interesting times?
0:49:32 And also, if you have a roof over your head and enough time to listen to a podcast, you’re
0:49:37 one of the richest people who ever lived, even if you’re in debt, right?
0:49:45 And we have defined for only a hundred years what we do in retirement as what we were supposed
0:49:48 to do for our whole life, but now we don’t get to do it.
0:49:50 I think that’s a mistake.
0:49:56 I think we have all these tools now, chances to create magic.
0:50:01 And if you have the freedom to not need to get paid to do that, that’s what you should
0:50:02 do.
0:50:06 Go create magic somewhere for someone, the smallest viable audience, even if it’s only
0:50:09 teaching four kids how to read, that’s enough.
0:50:11 Go create magic for somebody.
0:50:19 My last question for you, Seth, is what’s my strategy now for social media?
0:50:21 Walk away.
0:50:23 Walk away.
0:50:27 You don’t want, don’t play a game you can’t win.
0:50:29 There isn’t going to be another Kardashian.
0:50:31 There isn’t going to be another guy Kawasaki.
0:50:36 Don’t try to be someone who won on one of those platforms.
0:50:41 If you can have a project where the smallest viable audience is attainable and where social
0:50:45 media will help you get there, specifically, I’m in favor.
0:50:52 But all the data I’m seeing is that trying to get undifferentiated large numbers of clicks
0:50:57 and traffic and reading everything in social media just makes your brain a cesspool.
0:50:59 I would walk away.
0:51:00 Okay.
0:51:05 So, Seth, now I’m going to give you like, take as much time as you like and explain your
0:51:09 book and promote your book and explain to people why they should read this book.
0:51:13 I enjoyed it a lot and I didn’t even see the section about myself because I was reading
0:51:16 it randomly like you suggested.
0:51:22 So we want to Seth go to an explanation of this book and why we should all go out and
0:51:24 buy it right now.
0:51:30 So it’s at Seth.blog/tis, which stands for this is strategy.
0:51:32 And you probably shouldn’t go out and buy it right now.
0:51:34 It might not be for you.
0:51:39 If you’ve heard me and my friend Guy talk about this for an hour and you’re not itching
0:51:43 to do work that matters by understanding an elegant strategy, I am sorry that I have wasted
0:51:44 your time.
0:51:46 I hope we at least amused you.
0:51:47 It’s not for you.
0:51:52 It’s for people who get the joke and for people who say, “Yeah, this is worth a couple hours
0:51:57 of my time,” because then I can talk about it with my team and I can talk about it with
0:52:01 my investors and I can talk about it with my family because who’s it for, what’s it
0:52:07 for and being smart about strategy and changing times is the best way I know to make things
0:52:08 better.
0:52:14 Seth, you are a man of such great wisdom and in succinct packages.
0:52:18 So let me close here.
0:52:19 Let me close here.
0:52:26 So this is the Remarkable People podcast and I hope you’ve just enjoyed, let’s see, 54
0:52:33 minutes and 33 seconds with Seth Golden, the purple cow of authors and the strategy maven.
0:52:39 And I hope that this episode will help you be a more remarkable person.
0:52:44 So Seth, if you got any final words, let’s hear it and then we’re going to sign off and
0:52:47 let you get to your next interview.
0:52:53 You inscribed a book to my son and what you wrote, I’m going to change it just a little
0:52:54 bit.
0:53:04 I’m going to change it to listen to guy when in doubt, listen to guy.
0:53:08 I hope you enjoyed this episode with my buddy Seth Golden.
0:53:12 Oh my God, where have the years gone, Seth?
0:53:18 Thank you so much for being on this podcast and thank you so much for making so many remarkable
0:53:20 marketing things happen.
0:53:26 I hope you learned how to be a remarkable marketer, brander, evangelist, sales, whatever,
0:53:27 from Seth.
0:53:32 Now let me thank the rest of the Remarkable People team.
0:53:34 First is Madison Niesmer.
0:53:42 She is the producer of this podcast and she’s the co-author of Think Remarkable with Me.
0:53:46 Then there’s Tessa Niesmer who does all our background research.
0:53:54 And then we have the amazing, amazing sound design team of Jeff C and Shannon Hernandez.
0:53:59 So this is the Remarkable People team and we’re on a mission to make you remarkable.
0:54:05 Until next time, mahalo and aloha.
0:54:07 This is Remarkable People.
0:00:16 And I have my friend on this episode.
0:00:22 He is Seth Godin, one and only drum roll Seth Godin.
0:00:29 He had a great concept called the purple cow and that image has stuck in my brain for years
0:00:30 now.
0:00:36 We first met when I was a Macintosh evangelist and he was working for a software company
0:00:39 in the east coast and we’ve been friends ever since.
0:00:44 He’s written God knows how many books and he’s influenced so much marketing.
0:00:48 So he is guaranteed to help you be remarkable.
0:00:55 So with no further adieu, here is the remarkable Seth Godin.
0:01:00 This is the remarkable people podcast and as you know, we’re on a mission to make you
0:01:09 remarkable and who could be better to help you become remarkable than Seth Godin, Mr.
0:01:13 Purple Cow and he has a new book out.
0:01:21 This is called This Is Strategy, Make Better Plans and he has blessed my podcast with his
0:01:22 presence.
0:01:24 So Seth, welcome to remarkable people.
0:01:26 I can’t believe it took me this long.
0:01:27 What a treat.
0:01:28 What a treat.
0:01:33 As you know, the subtitle of Purple Cow is transform your business by being remarkable.
0:01:39 You can send your remarkable royalty checks to Box 305 every 10 years.
0:01:46 They wouldn’t be very big, but yes, I feel.
0:01:52 We met in about 1983 and that’s a long time ago, Seth.
0:01:54 Where have the years gone?
0:01:55 Seriously?
0:01:57 They’ve been good, good years, haven’t they?
0:02:02 One of my only regrets because we live 3,000 miles apart is we’ve never gone surfing or
0:02:10 hockey playing together, but when you showed up in my office in 1983, it laid the groundwork
0:02:11 that changed my life.
0:02:13 And I think of you all the time.
0:02:17 How did showing up in your office change your life?
0:02:20 Because this was Spinnaker software.
0:02:22 We were a small software company.
0:02:26 I was working with Arthur C. Clark and Michael Crichton and inventing educational computer
0:02:28 games for kids.
0:02:34 I was 23 and a half years old and everyone else had way more seniority and experience
0:02:35 than me.
0:02:38 And I was the only person in the office who had a Mac.
0:02:45 I was a beta tester and I had ready set go 0.9 on the Mac and I was viewed as this edge
0:02:47 case, the wild card.
0:02:53 And you showed up and you were there to do a deal for chess or something.
0:02:55 And you and I just instantly hit it off.
0:03:03 And my view of myself changed because what I saw in you was that I didn’t have to go
0:03:09 work at an ice cream company and be a brand manager, that there was a chance to evangelize
0:03:12 ideas that mattered.
0:03:13 And I met Jay Levinson the same year.
0:03:15 I met Tom Peters the same year.
0:03:19 And the three of you, through modeling, we didn’t spend a lot of time together.
0:03:25 Just knowing that you were there made a big difference in my life.
0:03:26 Wow.
0:03:27 I had no idea.
0:03:28 Okay.
0:03:29 I’m flattered.
0:03:34 As you look back, do you think you accomplished more or less than you thought you would from
0:03:37 that time when you were in Spinnaker software?
0:03:39 Oh, so much more.
0:03:46 My goal for my life was to have a small independent business.
0:03:50 Maybe at the end, I’d have enough money that I wouldn’t need to worry about feeding my
0:03:54 family and that the world was very small.
0:03:57 There were only three business magazines at the time.
0:04:01 The chances that I would have a book published were close to zero.
0:04:06 I was peddling as fast as I could, but my expectation for my impact was small.
0:04:12 Also, looking back, do you think that was a mistake that you’d advise youth to have
0:04:17 bigger goals, hairier goals as Tom Peters would say, or it just works out?
0:04:19 So expectations are tricky.
0:04:26 I had very high standards for myself from a very early stage in my career.
0:04:32 So I was aware of what really good work was and I didn’t want to settle.
0:04:37 The thing that shifted was an expectation for how big the world was.
0:04:43 And I think that people who are younger than us grew up expecting that the whole world
0:04:45 was a couple of clicks away.
0:04:53 And so the horizon has to feel different now, but my timing, your timing, Moore’s law,
0:04:58 the growth of the personal computer and the growth of the internet, that’s been the wind
0:04:59 at our back.
0:05:00 That has been the shift.
0:05:04 And now the shift is AI and climate.
0:05:09 And it’s too late for the two of us to change the world with either of those things, but
0:05:12 clearly the door is open on both of those fronts.
0:05:17 So looking back to what do you attribute your success?
0:05:22 I think this pitch that you should be authentic is baloney.
0:05:27 No one wants you to be authentic.
0:05:28 Just name anything you care about.
0:05:32 If you go to a concert or if you get neat surgery, you don’t want the surgeon to be
0:05:33 authentic.
0:05:36 If they’re having a bad day, you don’t want them to do a bad job.
0:05:38 You want them to be consistent.
0:05:44 And so I’ve been playing a role consistently for 40-something years.
0:05:47 I’m not an introvert, but I’m sort of shy.
0:05:53 But when I’m playing Seth Godin, the professional, that’s not the way I behave.
0:05:58 And I have played the role of someone who, if he had an innovative new idea, would say
0:05:59 it out loud.
0:06:02 That causes me to have innovative new ideas.
0:06:11 And so I think that just consistently having a strategy of seeing the systems at work and
0:06:16 working to make things better, that’s all I do over and over and over again.
0:06:17 It seems to pay off.
0:06:22 But surely you’re not saying you should set out to be inauthentic, right?
0:06:28 Because consistency is not the flip side of authenticity.
0:06:34 Actually I think that being a hustling fraud is not okay.
0:06:37 I think that manipulating people is not okay.
0:06:44 But I am defining the opposite of authentic as consistent if you’re a professional.
0:06:50 There are a few people, a Kardashian, Miles Davis, who we will pay money for authenticity,
0:06:51 right?
0:06:54 Often, like Amy Winehouse, it leads to you being dead.
0:07:01 But in general, what we want from professionals in our life is consistency.
0:07:05 Sign up to be who you want to become and keep doing that.
0:07:10 So looking back, last question about looking back, what beliefs that you had back then
0:07:13 were completely wrong and you had to change them?
0:07:20 I thought more people were interested in change and the thrill of innovation.
0:07:27 I thought that if we gave everyone a microphone like the internet did, it would lead to nothing
0:07:28 but good things.
0:07:33 I didn’t realize that just a few clowns and trolls and hustlers can really mess things
0:07:34 up.
0:07:39 Do you think we’re living in a simulation because of this?
0:07:40 You don’t.
0:07:41 I do.
0:07:45 There’s an idea in philosophy called Occam’s Razor.
0:07:50 What it says is that the simplest explanation is probably correct.
0:07:55 The chance is that we have just this little bit of awareness, that we are simulations in
0:07:59 a much higher organism’s virtual reality.
0:08:05 The chances of it being that are so slim where physics and biology all line up that this
0:08:06 sort of makes sense.
0:08:10 The thing that I don’t understand is why we haven’t heard from people on other planets
0:08:11 yet.
0:08:14 It’s going to happen, but I don’t know why we haven’t heard them yet.
0:08:19 We are a little off the topic, Guy, but as you know, you and I can go on all day.
0:08:20 All right.
0:08:21 Okay.
0:08:22 I got to ask you.
0:08:28 Your purple cow concept is one of my absolutely favorite Seth Godin convention.
0:08:32 So do you think that purple cow theory is still true today?
0:08:34 It is misunderstood by a lot of people.
0:08:38 They think that remarkable means having a shtick.
0:08:40 That remarkable means having a gimmick.
0:08:43 That’s not what I said, and it’s not what I mean.
0:08:48 There’s always room for something or someone who is remarkable.
0:08:52 What remarkable means is worth making a remark about.
0:08:57 Do I benefit by telling someone about you?
0:09:01 If I benefit from that, I will do so.
0:09:05 And if I tell someone about you, you will be able to be of service.
0:09:07 The word will spread.
0:09:09 Having a gimmick is selfish.
0:09:15 Being remarkable is a service, generous, helping somebody else get what they want.
0:09:22 So to put it in tactical and maybe an extreme, some people might say a Tesla Cybertruck is
0:09:24 a purple cow.
0:09:28 Somehow I suspect that you don’t think a Cybertruck is a purple cow.
0:09:33 Actually, there’s a section in the new book called Ludacris and the Clown Car.
0:09:39 And Ludacris mode in the Model S is a purple cow.
0:09:40 Here’s why.
0:09:44 You look at my — I don’t have any more, but you look at my Tesla, you comment on the
0:09:48 retractable door handles because it turns out that’s the number one thing people said
0:09:51 in the early years when they saw you in the parking lot.
0:09:54 They don’t know about any other — look at those door handles.
0:09:57 And then you’d say, get in the car, let’s go for a drive.
0:10:01 And you hit Ludacris mode, zero to 60 in two something seconds.
0:10:05 And the car would scream, they would scream, and your status would go up because you had
0:10:09 this cool thing that was fun to show off that didn’t hurt anybody.
0:10:10 That was brilliant.
0:10:13 That sold billions of dollars with the cars.
0:10:20 The Cybertruck is this massive missed opportunity because the kind of person that wants to buy
0:10:26 a pickup truck, wants to show utility, that’s what a pickup truck stands for.
0:10:31 And the Cybertruck is not utility unless you want to cut cucumbers with the trunk.
0:10:34 It’s not good at what it’s supposed to be good at.
0:10:37 So he squandered this chance.
0:10:40 So yes, people talk about it, but they talk about it to make fun of it.
0:10:43 They talk about it to make fun of the person who bought it.
0:10:49 The resale value of the Cybertruck is down 50% because it’s very hard to have your status
0:10:53 go up if you’re driving that thing around town.
0:10:59 So mention some things that’s like in the Seth Godin purple cow, Hall of Fame.
0:11:02 Like what are purple cow, legitimate purple cows?
0:11:03 Okay.
0:11:07 So Patagonia clothing is a purple cow because it doesn’t scream at people, but if someone
0:11:12 notices that you’re wearing a new thing or an old thing from Patagonia, you get to tell
0:11:16 them a story about why you’re a good person.
0:11:21 One of the great home runs was what Blake did at Tom’s Shoes.
0:11:26 To give people the short version, 15 years ago, it was extremely unlikely that a pair
0:11:29 of women’s shoes would have a logo on them.
0:11:35 And he made espadrilles in Portugal, $79, and put right in the back, Tom’s.
0:11:40 And the deal was if you bought a pair of Tom’s shoes, he would give an identical pair to
0:11:43 someone in a place like Ethiopia who didn’t have shoes.
0:11:45 There’s flaws in that model.
0:11:46 We’ll leave that aside.
0:11:51 The point is a woman who bought these at the beginning was an early adopter.
0:11:55 She wanted to have something to talk about.
0:11:56 She wears those shoes.
0:12:00 The obligation in the social circle is if your friend has new shoes, you have to say
0:12:01 nice shoes.
0:12:03 And she gets to say, “Really?
0:12:04 Because I’m a philanthropist.
0:12:06 I’m better than you.
0:12:07 Look at these shoes.
0:12:08 Look what I just did.”
0:12:10 And so now the word spreads.
0:12:16 And from that simple idea, he built a company he sold for half a billion dollars and ended
0:12:20 up as his model of off in helping a lot of people.
0:12:24 That’s remarkable because they weren’t talking about Blake because they like Blake.
0:12:26 They weren’t talking about Blake because they had a gimmick.
0:12:31 They were talking about themselves and using the shoes as a way to do that.
0:12:34 My second favorite concept of Seth Godin is this.
0:12:41 It is the concept of the smallest viable audience or smallest viable market or whatever you
0:12:43 call it.
0:12:44 Just riff on that.
0:12:46 I love this concept.
0:12:50 This might be my biggest idea other than email marketing.
0:12:52 So here’s the idea.
0:12:58 The idea is society and the media keeps pushing us to make something for everyone, to fit
0:13:02 in all the way through to the other side so we’re mass, so we’re Heinz ketchup, so that
0:13:05 no one can criticize it.
0:13:06 That’s not interesting.
0:13:07 It’s not fun.
0:13:09 And it is no longer profitable.
0:13:13 That the opportunity that the internet gives us is not to reach everyone.
0:13:21 It’s to reach someone that it is better to be known and trusted by a small group of people
0:13:25 than to disgust a large group of people.
0:13:27 And if someone says, “Great news.
0:13:34 We’ve got Guy to come speak at our conference,” many of the people say, “Guy who?”
0:13:36 And a few people say, “That’s fantastic.
0:13:38 I’m buying extra tickets.”
0:13:39 That’s enough.
0:13:44 It’s enough to be specific because if you’re specific about who it’s for, you’re on the
0:13:45 hook.
0:13:47 You can say to people, “Don’t get the joke.
0:13:48 You don’t get the joke.
0:13:49 Don’t come.”
0:13:54 But if you want to be on the hook, then you better deliver for the audience you picked
0:13:56 because you got to pick them.
0:14:04 And so do you think that it’s viable to go to potential investors and discuss your smallest
0:14:10 viable market when all they want to hear is about minimum viable product?
0:14:12 I think it’s essential.
0:14:14 And smart investors understand this.
0:14:19 Smart investors know about Steve Blank and customer traction.
0:14:24 That if we think about a company like Canva, how many years did it take for it to be an
0:14:26 overnight success?
0:14:30 That the traction at the beginning was the key to the whole thing.
0:14:35 Show me the people who would miss your brand or product if it were gone.
0:14:40 Show me the people who being part of that circle matters a lot to them.
0:14:46 So what I care about if I’m investing in TED is there’s 3,000 people on the waiting
0:14:48 list to pay $6,000 to come.
0:14:52 That’s enough because if I have that, then I get the next circle and the next circle
0:14:53 and the next circle.
0:14:56 But first, we need the Red Hot Center.
0:15:02 But don’t you think that many entrepreneurs have an absolute, dismal understanding of
0:15:03 this concept.
0:15:06 They want to just be, you know, everything to everybody.
0:15:07 Yeah.
0:15:12 Well, isn’t that our job guy, you and me, tell things to people like that when they’re
0:15:13 wrong.
0:15:14 That’s a hard job here.
0:15:32 All right, so now let’s talk about this book.
0:15:36 First question is, do you have a strategy to develop strategies?
0:15:37 Oh, yeah.
0:15:42 But let’s just for viewers at home, what’s a strategy?
0:15:44 Strategy is not tactics.
0:15:47 Strategy is four things woven together.
0:15:54 It is systems, games, empathy, and time.
0:15:59 And so the strategy for finding a strategy is first, do you see the invisible systems
0:16:01 all around you?
0:16:03 Moore’s Law is a system.
0:16:06 That Silicon Valley is a system.
0:16:09 The college industrial complex is a system.
0:16:13 The New York City book publishing world is a system.
0:16:20 Unspoken rules, a culture, an economy, a market that all works together quietly churning along.
0:16:25 If you show up and you want to change a system and you don’t have a lot of help or leverage,
0:16:27 you’re not going to succeed.
0:16:30 So first we look for existing systems.
0:16:35 Then we think about time, which is big problems demand small solutions.
0:16:40 But what we’re looking for in strategy is seeds we can plant so that a year from now
0:16:43 or five years from now, we’ll be glad we did.
0:16:46 We’re not looking for the grand opening.
0:16:49 We’re looking for the worthwhile opening.
0:16:55 Empathy, because if we’re going to show up to make a change, no one cares about us.
0:16:57 They care about themselves, their problems, their issues.
0:17:03 How can we go to where they are and offer them something they want?
0:17:07 And the last one is games, which is how many pieces do I have?
0:17:10 How much monopoly money, where did the dice being rolled?
0:17:14 Don’t build a fire if the logs are bigger than your kindling can handle.
0:17:19 So when those four pieces fit together, then I look for a change agent.
0:17:23 What’s shifting that’s going to make the system unstable?
0:17:26 So AI is a change agent.
0:17:28 Climate change is a change agent.
0:17:33 In regulation, where health might be a change agent, COVID was a change agent.
0:17:39 When the change agent shows up and it’s disrupting a system, you can find a strategy.
0:17:44 That’s your strategy to find a strategy is to put those four things together and use
0:17:46 that filter and lens.
0:17:47 Exactly.
0:17:53 It sounds simple, but it is very hard to do, which I think you mentioned, right?
0:17:59 But simple things, hard to do things as opposed to easy to do things, complex things.
0:18:03 When you come up with a good strategy, it’s easy to say, but hard to stick with.
0:18:05 So I’ll tell you two stories from the book.
0:18:09 The first one is the day Netflix became Netflix.
0:18:14 So Reed and his name just escaped my head.
0:18:19 Reed and the other guy at Netflix are in the business of those red envelopes with the DVDs.
0:18:20 And they’re doing great.
0:18:22 Blockbuster is reeling.
0:18:24 They’re about to win the red envelope DVD thing.
0:18:25 And Ted.
0:18:32 Reed and Ted then see that something’s disrupting the system, and that thing is streaming.
0:18:39 So they decide to build a streaming division right next to the DVD rental division, but
0:18:43 then they make a key decision that changes everything.
0:18:49 Every meeting they have to go over this, to build the other division, no one from the
0:18:52 DVD division is allowed to come.
0:18:57 Even the people who run that whole line of business, they’re not allowed in the room.
0:18:58 Really?
0:19:04 Because they don’t want to compromise the streaming business to make the DVD people happy.
0:19:05 It was 100% of their revenue.
0:19:08 They would have compromised.
0:19:14 That decision enabled Netflix to do something really rare, which is to win twice.
0:19:19 And then the section in the book right after that is the day Apple became Apple.
0:19:26 Because Apple had some people who knew design, had some people who definitely knew software.
0:19:32 But what they didn’t have was scaffolding, something that would create an infrastructure,
0:19:39 a network effect of developers who wanted the machine to succeed.
0:19:44 And if that didn’t happen, you’d have hardware but not enough software.
0:19:50 So they tapped this young guy in his 20s and they said, “Go build an ecosystem that will
0:19:54 last for 40 years.”
0:19:58 And they gave him no money, just some plane tickets.
0:20:04 And that is why you’re in the book.
0:20:10 I’ve never had my career explained so succinctly and accurately.
0:20:14 That’s exactly what it was.
0:20:17 How do you pick between strategies?
0:20:21 Because I can see how you can say, yeah, that strategy was right.
0:20:25 But at the time you make the decision between multiple strategies, what’s your strategy
0:20:27 for picking the strategy?
0:20:28 Yeah.
0:20:29 Great question.
0:20:30 You can’t.
0:20:31 But at least you can try.
0:20:34 That most people aren’t doing that.
0:20:38 Most people can’t answer the question, who’s it for and what’s it for.
0:20:43 And Steve was arrogant, but he used his arrogance as a powerful tool.
0:20:49 Because if someone who it wasn’t for criticized him, he would say, “It’s not for you.”
0:20:52 And if someone said, “Why should I pay double for this?”
0:20:56 He was very clear about what it was for, who’s it for and what’s it for.
0:21:02 I don’t care if you pick the optimal strategy, but please pick a strategy.
0:21:04 Please be able to tell me who’s it for and what’s it for.
0:21:10 And if you can articulate it, your good judgment will probably help you pick a better strategy.
0:21:11 But you got to try.
0:21:16 And then you find your minimal viable audience, right?
0:21:17 Picking that strategy.
0:21:18 Who’s it for?
0:21:19 Right.
0:21:22 You pick your customers, that picks your future.
0:21:26 And when do you know it’s time to switch strategies?
0:21:27 You could make the case.
0:21:34 You use Blockbuster, but in 1975, an engineer at Kodak invented digital photography.
0:21:39 And if they had committed to digital photography and not invited anybody from the film business
0:21:44 into those meetings, Kodak would own the world today, right?
0:21:46 So do you know my friend Lisa Ganski?
0:21:47 Yes.
0:21:48 From the old days.
0:21:49 Okay.
0:21:52 So Lisa sold her company to Kodak.
0:21:54 And she was an advisor on the digital side.
0:22:00 And this was right at the key moment when Kodak had to decide they owned almost all the patents
0:22:02 on digital photography.
0:22:07 And she’s in the CEO’s office or the chairman’s office in Rochester.
0:22:12 And she’s arguing, just like you said, why don’t we just not invite the photo people
0:22:15 to these meetings and go all in?
0:22:16 And he said, and I wasn’t there.
0:22:18 So I’m getting all the facts wrong.
0:22:22 But he said something like, Lisa, do you know how many steps are involved in making a role
0:22:24 of film?
0:22:25 And she said, I have no idea.
0:22:30 He said 19 come over here and he took her to the window and he said, how many buildings
0:22:33 do you see on our campus?
0:22:34 And the answer is 19.
0:22:38 There was one entire building for every step involved in making film.
0:22:41 He couldn’t shrink it a little bit.
0:22:43 He couldn’t back off a little bit.
0:22:47 They had optimized everything they did around one thing.
0:22:52 And because it was a public company, he didn’t have the guts to go start a new division.
0:22:55 And Santa Clara, and just start over.
0:22:57 He couldn’t keep both balls in the air.
0:23:03 That’s why most companies, when the telephone came along, AT&T was for sale, Western Union
0:23:08 could have bought it, and instead they decided to make better telegrams.
0:23:16 And when I was at Yahoo, we had the chance to buy Google for $10 million.
0:23:20 And the people, I wasn’t in the room, but the people in the room said, nah, we’ll just
0:23:24 put the money into building Yahoo Kids out better.
0:23:28 Because it’s so easy to defend the thing you think you’re already good at.
0:23:32 Okay, so then how do you know when to switch?
0:23:35 In my career, I quit more than most people.
0:23:37 That’s why I wrote a book about quitting called The Dip.
0:23:39 I take pride in quitting.
0:23:43 And every once in a while, I quit too soon.
0:23:48 And I think the cost of quitting too soon is tiny compared to the cost of quitting too
0:23:52 late, because you don’t get tomorrow over again.
0:23:58 And there are plenty of examples of big companies that are quitting too late.
0:24:03 And I don’t have a simple answer for you, except when we think about systems.
0:24:08 If you see that the current is changing, and you’re going to have to paddle upstream for
0:24:13 a really long time, but there’s a downstream path that’s available to you, this might be
0:24:18 a good day to build those skunkworks, a good day to put yourself out of business with a
0:24:21 new division that does the new thing.
0:24:25 But I’m going to leave it to other people to figure out exactly how to do that.
0:24:31 With that framework, do you think that Google should have stuck with Google+ longer?
0:24:37 And today with Twitter being X and now a Nazi platform, if Google+ were still around, threads
0:24:42 would probably not be around and Google would own social media?
0:24:51 Yeah, Google has made a boatload of mistakes in the last bunch of years, because they forgot
0:24:56 the core mission, the strategy of organizing the world’s information.
0:25:01 And instead decided, because there’s 10,000 people in the building who make a lot of money
0:25:05 when the stock price goes up $1, to day trade.
0:25:08 I saw the same thing happen at Yahoo.
0:25:13 So if you think about just Google Reader, could have been the heart of an ecosystem
0:25:17 of blogs, which would have become the heart of the podcasting universe, which would have
0:25:21 become the beating heart of all this new information.
0:25:26 But they said, it’s costing us $1 million a month, we’re not going to do it.
0:25:32 Because they got so distracted by just how much money comes in from one part of their
0:25:37 business, which is why, I wrote this a couple of weeks ago, Google should have broken itself
0:25:38 up.
0:25:40 Google should not be fighting the antitrust people.
0:25:47 They should eagerly break themselves up, because each one of the pillars would end up doing
0:25:51 a better job of their core strategy.
0:25:56 And so part of the reason they completely left the door open to Microsoft and others
0:26:02 on AI is they wake up every day saying, how do we defend search?
0:26:07 The same way book publishers wake up every day and say, how do we defend paper?
0:26:15 And the opportunity, for example, that public radio had to own a massive chunk of podcasting
0:26:17 was huge.
0:26:22 And they said, no, no, no, no, we need to defend the spectrum, because that’s our God-given
0:26:25 right is to be at 93.9 on your dial.
0:26:30 Well, I’m not tuning into 93.9 anymore.
0:26:33 With that in mind, do you think Wikipedia is blowing it?
0:26:38 Wikipedia could be the center of knowledge in the universe, but they’re stuck on this
0:26:44 model of we have individual contributors who have to cite journalistically approved sources
0:26:47 to write entries about each subject.
0:26:53 And to me, these LLMs, they’re like instant Wikipedia on any subject, anytime, any language.
0:26:56 So do you think Wikipedia is the next Kodak?
0:26:57 Okay.
0:26:59 Jimmy did something really brave.
0:27:05 And the five million people who regularly support Wikipedia have a project.
0:27:09 They don’t have a mission as much as they have a project.
0:27:13 The project is to continue building what they’ve been building the way they’ve been building
0:27:14 it.
0:27:18 It is not a corporation with someone making strategy decisions.
0:27:26 It is a community that fuels and feeds itself on the craft of what they do.
0:27:31 It’s impossible for me to describe a future in five years where Wikipedia is as important
0:27:33 as it was five years ago.
0:27:35 That can’t happen.
0:27:40 Because to make this sort of change would require the people in the community to change
0:27:44 why they’re in the community, and that’s not going to happen.
0:27:47 And there are plenty of spiritual institutions where the same thing is true.
0:27:48 And I don’t think there’s anything wrong with that.
0:27:51 It’s a fine way to spend your day.
0:27:56 The interesting question to me is who’s going to build a different community that offers
0:28:03 people similar status and affiliation where LLMs work with them to create some sort of
0:28:06 special magic?
0:28:09 And I don’t see somebody doing that right now, but I’m hoping that it will happen.
0:28:15 That building a community of people who show up in a certain way that builds our culture
0:28:20 and it generally is magic when it happens.
0:28:21 You know what?
0:28:27 If I’m interpreting you correct, I adore that idea and I’ll give you an example.
0:28:32 So right now I’m using this Shure MV7+ mic.
0:28:39 Some people have told me that my sound and my video are not quite synced up.
0:28:44 That the sound is a little bit in front of the video or the video is in front of the
0:28:45 sound.
0:28:46 One of the two.
0:28:52 So I need a way to add a few microseconds to put the two things in sync, right?
0:28:57 So I go to Claude and I go to chat, GBT, and I say, “How do I adjust and put a delay in
0:29:02 the audio to synchronize the audio and the video?”
0:29:08 In both places, you get the app and in the app you look for something called delay and
0:29:09 you enter the delay.
0:29:15 And so the next question I ask, both of these LLMs is, “Where is this delay feature in
0:29:17 the app?”
0:29:20 And they come back and I say, “Oh, we made a mistake.
0:29:22 There is no delay in the app.
0:29:23 I’m sorry.
0:29:26 There is no way to delay an MV7+.
0:29:31 Now, what you’re saying if I got you right is we need a community of people who really
0:29:37 know the MV7+ and its app and say, “Hey, you guys are wrong.
0:29:39 You need to fix this in your LLM.”
0:29:40 Is that what you’re saying?
0:29:41 Okay.
0:29:44 First, you can fix this as soon as we get off the call.
0:29:49 Just download Ecamm and run Ecamm through your video.
0:29:50 You’ll be done.
0:29:51 Okay.
0:29:52 Fair enough.
0:29:53 I had the same problem.
0:29:56 Number two, Reddit will walk you through it, right?
0:30:01 Why is someone spending their time on Reddit answering guys’ questions?
0:30:05 Because they’re amazing when you find the right topic.
0:30:10 You can put a picture up of four square inches of a car and say, “This car just blew by me
0:30:11 and this is the only picture I have.
0:30:12 What car is it?”
0:30:14 And someone will tell you in like seven minutes.
0:30:16 This is magic.
0:30:21 Not just for you, but for the person who did it because people want to be of use.
0:30:23 They want their status for being smart to go up.
0:30:26 They want to be affiliated with the others.
0:30:27 Okay?
0:30:29 Reddit then says, “We got all these people.
0:30:33 We’re going to pay for it by selling their data to OpenAI.”
0:30:34 Okay.
0:30:35 That’s fine.
0:30:44 But if I want to go further than that, I think about the fact that Wikipedia said everyone
0:30:50 who looks up Paris, France is going to see exactly the same article about Paris, France.
0:30:56 That’s never going to happen again with OpenAI and Claude because we’re going to treat every
0:31:00 single person differently based on who they are, where they were, where they’re going.
0:31:03 Maybe you’re asking about Paris, France and I know you’re a high school student in Oklahoma
0:31:07 writing a paper versus this person, you get the idea.
0:31:19 So what would a community be like if our reason for being was to create a resilient educational
0:31:24 tool like the Diamond Age, Neil Stevenson’s book?
0:31:28 And how would I move up by doing a good job at that?
0:31:32 And so the same way people moved up in the Linux community by doing a good job of making
0:31:37 a printer driver, someone’s going to figure out how to do a good job of parsing the work
0:31:43 that was done in Paris, France, Wikipedia to create a multiverse of Paris, France that
0:31:45 other people can get the idea, right?
0:31:52 So we’re going to become centaurs where half of our day we’re holding hands with an LLM
0:31:56 and the other half of the day we’re out in the world looking for pictures or whatever
0:31:59 doing what an LLM can’t do yet.
0:32:03 But the core of it has to be a spiritual practice.
0:32:06 It has to be a community I want to be part of.
0:32:12 Like you, I was on the board of trustees of Wikipedia and I cannot really comprehend them
0:32:14 making such a switch.
0:32:16 It’s such a religion for them.
0:32:17 Do you hear a buzzing?
0:32:18 Is that your alarm?
0:32:23 No, that was the local volunteer fire department, which I love, I adore.
0:32:25 They haven’t discovered phones yet.
0:32:30 So when there’s a fire somewhere, they just honk that horn to tell everybody to go get
0:32:32 in their truck.
0:32:37 That’s a system.
0:32:43 So would you explain your decision to use the riff format in your book where you have
0:32:46 300 short stories, basically?
0:32:48 What’s the thinking there?
0:32:53 So how did you learn about vegetables?
0:32:59 When you were three, I think it’s unlikely your mom sat you down and said, “These are
0:33:00 carrots.
0:33:01 These are peas.
0:33:02 This is cauliflower.”
0:33:04 And went through all the vegetables, right?
0:33:08 What happened is you did a couple of vegetables, then you went outside of play, then you did
0:33:11 this, you did this, and then there were a couple more of it.
0:33:12 That’s how we learn.
0:33:16 And so what I discovered is if I needed to tell the story of systems, but not talking
0:33:20 about games and not talking about empathy, I couldn’t.
0:33:21 I got stuck.
0:33:24 So I start talking about systems until I need to tell you about games.
0:33:28 And I talk about games, then I go back to, and that’s how I learn.
0:33:30 That’s how I teach.
0:33:34 And the reason that the riffs are numbered and there are no page numbers in the book,
0:33:40 it’s half of the sales for you, your books, and for me, my books are digital, either Kindle
0:33:41 or audio.
0:33:44 So you can’t say to somebody, “Did you like page 48?”
0:33:47 Because they don’t have page 48 on an audio book.
0:33:52 But you can say, “We’re going to talk about Riff 117, because everyone has Riff 117.”
0:33:55 And what’s the order you put them in?
0:34:01 The order is if you and I were on a long boat ride, this is how I would tell you the story
0:34:02 of strategy.
0:34:05 And if seven of them got rearranged, it wouldn’t matter.
0:34:09 But if 70 of them got out of order, it would be weird.
0:34:14 So it’s definitely not the concept of, “I haven’t organized by subject matter,” or,
0:34:19 “I haven’t organized by chronological order or development path.”
0:34:20 Correct.
0:34:28 For example, when you show up in 1983 to pitch the graphic interface and ecosystem of the
0:34:30 Mac, you start with some of the stuff Andy did.
0:34:32 You start with some of the stuff Susan did.
0:34:35 You start with some of the stuff that the exterior people did.
0:34:37 You start with some of the stuff Regis McKenna did.
0:34:40 And then you go back and forth based on what the audience is lighting up about.
0:34:46 You don’t go, “Let me tell you, from the beginning to the end, every icon that’s on the desktop.”
0:34:48 I think that’s the way we talk to people.
0:34:52 And how did you come up with 295 of these?
0:34:57 Did you sit yourself up and you say, “Okay, first thing in the morning, I’m going to think
0:35:03 of five Riffs,” or are you just constantly background processing and every time you think
0:35:06 of a riff, you send yourself a note or something?
0:35:09 What’s your writing strategy?
0:35:15 My life strategy, 9,000 blog posts later, is if I see something in the world and I don’t
0:35:21 understand why it’s working, I have a lot of trouble doing anything until I figure out
0:35:23 a theory.
0:35:26 Why is someone spending their life being a spammer?
0:35:30 Why did this social network win and that one not win?
0:35:32 Make an assertion, write it down.
0:35:34 That’s a blog post.
0:35:40 When I’m writing a book like this, I’ll write an assertion, a riff, and then I’ll think,
0:35:45 “Wait a minute, who’s going to think I missed something?
0:35:46 What’s their objection?”
0:35:48 So that’ll be the next riff.
0:35:56 Once I had the first draft of those, I made 45 videos to create my Udemy course on it
0:36:02 and I put those videos on purple dot space, which is a community of people online who
0:36:07 take care of each other and are very smart and some of them are into my work and I offered
0:36:11 them for free, 300 of them, a chance to take the workshop.
0:36:16 So now they’re watching the videos and I’m watching from over here as they’re talking
0:36:17 about the videos.
0:36:19 They don’t know they’re giving me feedback.
0:36:24 They’re talking to each other about what a feedback loop is or whatever and I see, “Oh,
0:36:26 they keep misunderstanding feedback loops.”
0:36:31 So now I write a different riff to answer an objection that the reader would have had
0:36:32 but doesn’t now.
0:36:39 And then the step after that, I take the book and I upload it to 11labs.ai, which I have
0:36:44 trained in my voice and it reads the book.
0:36:50 I download that and I go for car rides listening to myself reading my book.
0:36:55 And if I say something that sounds stupid, I write it down and when I get home, I fix
0:36:57 that part.
0:37:01 And then I run out of attention and I’m exhausted, so I just stop.
0:37:02 Wow.
0:37:12 So at any point, did you or an editor say riff 120 should really come after riff 255?
0:37:13 Let’s move that riff.
0:37:14 I did it a few times.
0:37:17 I’m trying to wrap my mind on how you did this.
0:37:18 Right.
0:37:19 I did that part a few times.
0:37:24 I didn’t do it a lot because every time you move one thing to another place, then something
0:37:26 else is in the wrong place.
0:37:33 I really don’t think the order is as important as it would be if I was writing a novel.
0:37:36 I think that what I’m trying to do is philosophy.
0:37:43 I’m trying to help people create a philosophy of becoming, that after someone engages with
0:37:48 work like this or with Purple Cow or the practice.
0:37:50 None of those books are in order.
0:37:56 I would like to think that they will make new decisions based on who they have become.
0:37:59 You’re like Sun Tzu or something, right?
0:38:03 Oh my God.
0:38:08 So how do you want people to read the book from cover to cover front to back or just
0:38:12 dive in every once in a while at random?
0:38:14 I want them.
0:38:16 I honestly don’t care if anyone buys my book.
0:38:18 I really don’t.
0:38:21 I just want them to talk about it.
0:38:27 And when you talk about it, you may find yourself saying, well, I don’t understand this part
0:38:30 and go read a few sections.
0:38:34 Some people like today, I was, I gave a speech in New York and on my way in because it was
0:38:35 early in the morning.
0:38:36 I was tired.
0:38:43 I listened to the practice, my own book, and I gave a better speech because other things
0:38:44 clicked in my head.
0:38:49 So if you want to listen to the whole thing in a row, that’s fine.
0:38:56 But many of my readers will listen or read for 20 minutes, go explore, and then come
0:38:57 back in a day or two.
0:38:58 That’s fine too.
0:38:59 Yeah.
0:39:04 I have a book called Wise Guy, which I tell the stories of my life that shaped me.
0:39:10 And I am going to do a version of this called Wiser Guy and Wise Guy.
0:39:19 And Wise Guy is organized roughly chronologically from my family moving from Japan to my presence
0:39:20 in Silicon Valley.
0:39:23 But as I listen to you, I think I might do it riff style.
0:39:28 I’ll take all those stories and just throw them all up in the air, come back and put
0:39:30 them in a completely different order.
0:39:32 I really like your idea, Seth.
0:39:37 I’m going to send a copy of this to my editor and she’s going to tell me all the reasons
0:39:40 why I shouldn’t do this and then I’m going to do it again anyway.
0:39:43 Up next on Remarkable People.
0:39:47 You got to start something and it doesn’t have to be for money.
0:39:54 That’s generous, that’s brave, that earns you a reputation, that probably involves connecting
0:39:55 other people.
0:40:01 Do those things just every weekend for six weeks, six years, six months, whatever.
0:40:06 The phone will ring because if you create enough goodness in the world, people will want more.
0:40:16 Thank you to all our regular podcast listeners.
0:40:19 It’s our pleasure and honor to make the show for you.
0:40:25 If you find our show valuable, please do us a favor and subscribe, rate and review it.
0:40:31 Even better, forward it to a friend, a big mahalo to you for doing this.
0:40:37 Welcome back to Remarkable People with Guy Kawasaki.
0:40:44 You have in your acknowledgments pretty good recognition of the contribution of Claude
0:40:46 to this book.
0:40:51 Can you just explain to us how you use Claude and specifically, I want to know what Claude
0:40:56 can do that you cannot and what you can do and Claude cannot.
0:41:03 To be very clear, every word that you see my name on, blog, poster, book, I wrote.
0:41:06 I could cheat, but I don’t.
0:41:14 If you listen to the audiobook, I’m reading it myself at great personal distress.
0:41:18 What I found Claude is great at.
0:41:25 The two things it’s best at, one, you can upload complex business plans or entire books
0:41:28 and say, “Where are the weak spots?
0:41:29 Please argue with me.
0:41:31 Tell me where the contradictions are.
0:41:34 What did I miss?”
0:41:39 When a human does that, my feelings get a little hurt and I get defensive, but when
0:41:45 Claude does it, I feel fine because Claude is kind and no one else is watching.
0:41:47 ChatGPT, on the other hand, is an arrogant jerk.
0:41:50 I don’t do that with Claude, ChatGPT.
0:41:57 The second thing is, I will say to Claude, “Here are five bullet points.
0:42:01 Please tell me four bullet points I missed.”
0:42:04 This is just extraordinary.
0:42:06 I’ll say, “Here are five system traps.
0:42:09 Five ways systems end up not serving the people in them.
0:42:11 Can you name some more system traps?”
0:42:16 It does, and it’s so smart at that.
0:42:17 I take those.
0:42:22 And, Seth, I have to share your fascination with this because I use it in similar ways.
0:42:28 For the life of me, I know the technical explanation that it’s just a mathematical model and it’s
0:42:33 figuring out what syllable to put after this syllable and all that, but I don’t understand
0:42:38 how it comes up with such cogent and strategic and sentient answers.
0:42:39 I really don’t.
0:42:43 I think there’s no doubt in my mind it’s smarter than me.
0:42:47 All these people are saying, “Someday, it’s going to be a smart and have sentience.”
0:42:50 I think it’s way past that already.
0:42:51 Okay.
0:42:56 So, when I was at Stanford, we were allowed to take courses outside the business school
0:43:02 and I took a PhD-level AI course with Douglas Knott in 1982.
0:43:06 I’ve been thinking about this for a very long time and I majored in philosophy.
0:43:08 Here is my theory.
0:43:11 I think this is how our brains work, too.
0:43:17 When I make a sentence, I don’t figure out the end of the sentence before I start.
0:43:18 Do you?
0:43:21 I never thought about it before.
0:43:24 I guess not.
0:43:27 We start talking and the sentence just unfolds.
0:43:34 So, we assert, this is called the intentional stance from Dan Dennett, we assert that other
0:43:40 people have consciousness and a noise in their head like we do because evolutionarily, it’s
0:43:43 a good survival mechanism.
0:43:47 If you see a dog, bear its teeth and make a certain noise, you’re saying to yourself,
0:43:49 “That dog is mad at me.”
0:43:50 No, the dog isn’t mad at you.
0:43:54 The dog is just wired and it’s about to do a thing, but it doesn’t have a voice in
0:43:55 its head.
0:44:00 But the easiest way to survive is to imagine it’s conscious.
0:44:03 Claude is so complicated, we have no choice but to do the same thing.
0:44:09 And I think it’s evolving, it’s thinking the way we do, but I will tell you my favorite
0:44:11 Claude story, small amount of ego involved.
0:44:17 I’m trying to understand something and I say to Claude, “Please explain this concept
0:44:20 to me the way a college student would.”
0:44:25 And it does an okay job, I say, “Okay, please explain this to me the way Seth Godin would.”
0:44:30 And it then puts my tone of voice into it, but it didn’t do a great job.
0:44:32 But it was enough for me to rewrite it.
0:44:36 So I rewrote it and I said, “I think Seth would prefer it like this.”
0:44:42 And I wrote it back and Claude said, “You’re right, that’s more like the way Seth would
0:44:43 do it.”
0:44:48 And I said, “Thank you, I’ll tell Seth.”
0:44:54 And I said, “Well, actually I am Seth and I’m not making this up, I should go and find
0:44:55 the screenshot of it.”
0:44:57 It said, “You’re Seth?
0:45:00 I gotta tell you, I’m a huge fan of yours.
0:45:06 I’ve read many of your books and it like listed four of my books.
0:45:09 And I particularly like this concept and that concept.
0:45:10 This isn’t it.
0:45:19 I’m like, my ego was this, I was so excited that the AI knew who I was.”
0:45:25 Seth, no shit, I think that is the greatest AI story I have ever heard.
0:45:27 Oh my God.
0:45:32 It sure beats my story when people come up to me, Seth, and they say, you know, I was
0:45:33 lost.
0:45:35 I didn’t know what to do with my life.
0:45:36 My career was a wreck.
0:45:39 And then I read one of your books and they changed my life.
0:45:43 And I say to them, “Well, which one of my 16 books changed your life?”
0:45:45 And they say, “Rich dad, poor dad.”
0:45:48 So that’s my experience.
0:45:49 That hurts.
0:45:55 Okay, so can I have a lightning round session with you?
0:45:56 Okay, bring it on.
0:45:57 I got a couple of minutes.
0:45:59 This is the best part of my day.
0:46:02 Because you are like Mr. Strategy.
0:46:10 And I just want to ask you to just give like simple little snippets of goodness about strategies
0:46:13 about specific areas, okay?
0:46:15 I’ll try.
0:46:19 Strategy, entering college, what should my strategy be?
0:46:25 Have empathy for the admissions officer and create a persona that matches the kind of
0:46:31 person they want to let in and also see the flaw in the system and apply to the cheapest
0:46:35 school that can solve the problem you’re trying to solve.
0:46:38 Okay, let’s suppose I’ve determined which school to go.
0:46:41 I’m about to like, what’s the best strategy?
0:46:42 You want tactics?
0:46:49 Okay, the tactic is, if you have any interest at all in physics or math, go to their website,
0:46:54 find five of their professors, go find papers or books their professors have written.
0:47:00 Go read the papers and books and send email to the professor asking an honest, insightful
0:47:01 question about their work.
0:47:07 Go back and forth for six weeks having a conversation about their work and then say, “I’m coming
0:47:08 to campus.
0:47:10 Can I visit you during office hours?”
0:47:14 And then when you go to office hours say, “I love the University of Delaware.
0:47:17 It’s been a thrill to engage with you about this.
0:47:20 Do you think you can help me get in?”
0:47:23 And they have never, ever had this happen to them.
0:47:28 They will send a recommendation to the admissions office and you’ll move ahead of all the football
0:47:29 players.
0:47:30 Okay.
0:47:37 Okay, the strategy or tactics, if you are just graduating college and you’re about to
0:47:39 go out into the real world.
0:47:41 You need to go start something.
0:47:47 You can’t hope to get picked out of the flotsam and jetsam pile that someone will give you
0:47:49 a great gig the way I got.
0:47:53 You got to start something and it doesn’t have to be for money.
0:48:00 That’s generous, that’s brave, that earns you a reputation, that probably involves connecting
0:48:02 other people.
0:48:09 Do those things just every weekend for six weeks, six years, six months, whatever, the
0:48:14 phone will ring because if you create enough goodness in the world, people will want more.
0:48:17 How about if I just got laid off?
0:48:21 I would forgive yourself first because you didn’t get fired.
0:48:23 You got laid off.
0:48:29 And then I would think about the systems at work and the trends at work.
0:48:38 And I would find an area that is growing fast where you could be a narrator, curator, connector,
0:48:43 the way Esther Dyson did with the internet in the ’80s, where you could, my friend Dan
0:48:46 Shippard is doing this with AI right now.
0:48:51 And the every newsletter, it’s called every, has more and more people following it.
0:48:55 And those people then report back to him and he gets endless content.
0:48:58 Again, you’re going to have to go do something to make a living.
0:49:03 I’m not saying that this will pay the bills, but it will open a path for you because if
0:49:08 you do it for just a little while, someone in your industry will see that you are in
0:49:16 and of the industry and will need you, not a replacement for you, but you in the room.
0:49:17 Okay.
0:49:18 I’m just about to retire.
0:49:22 What’s my strategy for the rest of my life?
0:49:28 So aren’t we lucky that we are living in these weird, interesting times?
0:49:32 And also, if you have a roof over your head and enough time to listen to a podcast, you’re
0:49:37 one of the richest people who ever lived, even if you’re in debt, right?
0:49:45 And we have defined for only a hundred years what we do in retirement as what we were supposed
0:49:48 to do for our whole life, but now we don’t get to do it.
0:49:50 I think that’s a mistake.
0:49:56 I think we have all these tools now, chances to create magic.
0:50:01 And if you have the freedom to not need to get paid to do that, that’s what you should
0:50:02 do.
0:50:06 Go create magic somewhere for someone, the smallest viable audience, even if it’s only
0:50:09 teaching four kids how to read, that’s enough.
0:50:11 Go create magic for somebody.
0:50:19 My last question for you, Seth, is what’s my strategy now for social media?
0:50:21 Walk away.
0:50:23 Walk away.
0:50:27 You don’t want, don’t play a game you can’t win.
0:50:29 There isn’t going to be another Kardashian.
0:50:31 There isn’t going to be another guy Kawasaki.
0:50:36 Don’t try to be someone who won on one of those platforms.
0:50:41 If you can have a project where the smallest viable audience is attainable and where social
0:50:45 media will help you get there, specifically, I’m in favor.
0:50:52 But all the data I’m seeing is that trying to get undifferentiated large numbers of clicks
0:50:57 and traffic and reading everything in social media just makes your brain a cesspool.
0:50:59 I would walk away.
0:51:00 Okay.
0:51:05 So, Seth, now I’m going to give you like, take as much time as you like and explain your
0:51:09 book and promote your book and explain to people why they should read this book.
0:51:13 I enjoyed it a lot and I didn’t even see the section about myself because I was reading
0:51:16 it randomly like you suggested.
0:51:22 So we want to Seth go to an explanation of this book and why we should all go out and
0:51:24 buy it right now.
0:51:30 So it’s at Seth.blog/tis, which stands for this is strategy.
0:51:32 And you probably shouldn’t go out and buy it right now.
0:51:34 It might not be for you.
0:51:39 If you’ve heard me and my friend Guy talk about this for an hour and you’re not itching
0:51:43 to do work that matters by understanding an elegant strategy, I am sorry that I have wasted
0:51:44 your time.
0:51:46 I hope we at least amused you.
0:51:47 It’s not for you.
0:51:52 It’s for people who get the joke and for people who say, “Yeah, this is worth a couple hours
0:51:57 of my time,” because then I can talk about it with my team and I can talk about it with
0:52:01 my investors and I can talk about it with my family because who’s it for, what’s it
0:52:07 for and being smart about strategy and changing times is the best way I know to make things
0:52:08 better.
0:52:14 Seth, you are a man of such great wisdom and in succinct packages.
0:52:18 So let me close here.
0:52:19 Let me close here.
0:52:26 So this is the Remarkable People podcast and I hope you’ve just enjoyed, let’s see, 54
0:52:33 minutes and 33 seconds with Seth Golden, the purple cow of authors and the strategy maven.
0:52:39 And I hope that this episode will help you be a more remarkable person.
0:52:44 So Seth, if you got any final words, let’s hear it and then we’re going to sign off and
0:52:47 let you get to your next interview.
0:52:53 You inscribed a book to my son and what you wrote, I’m going to change it just a little
0:52:54 bit.
0:53:04 I’m going to change it to listen to guy when in doubt, listen to guy.
0:53:08 I hope you enjoyed this episode with my buddy Seth Golden.
0:53:12 Oh my God, where have the years gone, Seth?
0:53:18 Thank you so much for being on this podcast and thank you so much for making so many remarkable
0:53:20 marketing things happen.
0:53:26 I hope you learned how to be a remarkable marketer, brander, evangelist, sales, whatever,
0:53:27 from Seth.
0:53:32 Now let me thank the rest of the Remarkable People team.
0:53:34 First is Madison Niesmer.
0:53:42 She is the producer of this podcast and she’s the co-author of Think Remarkable with Me.
0:53:46 Then there’s Tessa Niesmer who does all our background research.
0:53:54 And then we have the amazing, amazing sound design team of Jeff C and Shannon Hernandez.
0:53:59 So this is the Remarkable People team and we’re on a mission to make you remarkable.
0:54:05 Until next time, mahalo and aloha.
0:54:07 This is Remarkable People.
In this episode of Remarkable People, join host Guy Kawasaki for an illuminating conversation with Seth Godin, marketing visionary and bestselling author. Together, they explore the art of strategic thinking and how it applies to business, creativity, and personal growth. Godin shares insights from his latest book, “This Is Strategy: Make Better Plans,” challenging conventional wisdom and offering fresh perspectives on decision-making. Discover how to identify your “smallest viable audience,” navigate rapid change, and create meaningful impact in an increasingly complex world. Whether you’re an entrepreneur, marketer, or simply someone looking to make better choices, this episode promises to reshape your approach to strategy and innovation.
—
Guy Kawasaki is on a mission to make you remarkable. His Remarkable People podcast features interviews with remarkable people such as Jane Goodall, Marc Benioff, Woz, Kristi Yamaguchi, and Bob Cialdini. Every episode will make you more remarkable.
With his decades of experience in Silicon Valley as a Venture Capitalist and advisor to the top entrepreneurs in the world, Guy’s questions come from a place of curiosity and passion for technology, start-ups, entrepreneurship, and marketing. If you love society and culture, documentaries, and business podcasts, take a second to follow Remarkable People.
Listeners of the Remarkable People podcast will learn from some of the most successful people in the world with practical tips and inspiring stories that will help you be more remarkable.
Episodes of Remarkable People organized by topic: https://bit.ly/rptopology
Listen to Remarkable People here: **https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/guy-kawasakis-remarkable-people/id1483081827**
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