Janet Echelman: Sculpting the Impossible

0:00:08 [MUSIC PLAYING]
0:00:11 Hello, I’m Guy Kawasaki.
0:00:13 This is the Remarkable People podcast.
0:00:17 It is March 6, 2024.
0:00:21 And today, our new book, “Think Remarkable–
0:00:25 Nine Paths to Transform Your Life and Make a Difference,”
0:00:27 is now available.
0:00:33 So before we get to our guest, the remarkable Janet Echelman,
0:00:35 I’m going to play the introduction
0:00:39 that I read for the audio version of the book.
0:00:42 This is about 11 minutes long, and then we
0:00:47 will get to Janet Echelman, a truly remarkable artist.
0:00:49 Here comes the introduction.
0:00:52 I’m Guy Kawasaki, one of the authors of the book
0:00:54 that you are listening to.
0:00:57 The book, of course, is “Think Remarkable–
0:01:01 Nine Paths to Transform Your Life and Make a Difference.”
0:01:05 I’m going to be reading to you a few sections of the book.
0:01:09 This is because, quite frankly, the professional voice
0:01:12 actor, Perry Daniels, has a better voice,
0:01:16 but there are some sections that are so intensely personal.
0:01:20 I thought it would be better if I read them.
0:01:25 The first section that passes that test is the introduction.
0:01:29 I begin this introduction with a quote from Anne Frank.
0:01:32 “What a wonderful thought it is that some of the best days
0:01:35 of our lives haven’t happened yet.”
0:01:40 I included this quote because it speaks of grit and determination
0:01:43 and grace and growth.
0:01:46 Anne Frank was under terrible circumstances,
0:01:48 and yet she had this optimism.
0:01:52 “What a wonderful thought it is that some of the best days
0:01:55 of our lives haven’t happened yet.”
0:01:58 First section of the introduction, “Think Different.”
0:02:02 In 1997, I was Apple’s chief evangelist,
0:02:05 and I was in the room when Lee Klau of Apple’s advertising
0:02:09 agency, Shiet Day, presented the “Think Different”
0:02:12 campaign to Steve Jobs.
0:02:14 There were perhaps 10 people in the meeting,
0:02:19 and Lee’s presentation took our breath away
0:02:23 because it so perfectly captivated the spirit of Macintosh
0:02:24 and Apple.
0:02:29 Let me read to you the text of the “Think Different” ad.
0:02:32 “Here’s to the crazy ones, the misfits, the rebels,
0:02:36 the troublemakers, the round pegs in the square holes,
0:02:39 the ones who see things differently.
0:02:41 They’re not fond of rules.
0:02:44 You can quote them, disagree with them,
0:02:48 glorify or vilify them, but the only thing you can’t do
0:02:52 is ignore them because they change things.
0:02:54 They push the human race forward,
0:02:57 and while some may see them as the crazy ones,
0:03:00 we see genius because the ones who are crazy enough
0:03:06 to think that they can change the world are the ones who do.”
0:03:09 Wow, I don’t know who wrote that text,
0:03:11 but holy cow, that is great text.
0:03:13 Back then, Apple wasn’t doing well.
0:03:16 In fact, most of the pundits predicted
0:03:18 that Apple would soon go bankrupt.
0:03:21 Michael Dell, yes, that Dell,
0:03:24 even suggested that Apple return its cash to shareholders
0:03:26 and close up shop.
0:03:28 Sticking with Apple in those days
0:03:32 was an act of faith and thinking differently.
0:03:34 To massively state the obvious,
0:03:37 Michael Dell and the pundits were wrong.
0:03:38 The “Think Different” campaign
0:03:41 and the iMac line of Macintoshes
0:03:44 rekindled the flame and saved Apple.
0:03:47 The turnaround that Steve engineered was remarkable,
0:03:50 and Apple became the most valuable company in history.
0:03:53 It’s been a few decades since that meeting.
0:03:55 The world has come a long way,
0:03:57 but many problems still exist.
0:03:59 New challenges have arisen
0:04:02 and much work remains to be done.
0:04:06 However, there are also great opportunities.
0:04:09 Now it’s necessary to go beyond “Think Different”
0:04:11 and go all the way to “Think Remarkable”
0:04:14 to transform your life and the world.
0:04:16 The big picture.
0:04:19 Suppose someone who is twice your age
0:04:21 and holds a powerful political office
0:04:23 tries to humiliate you.
0:04:27 His reason was that you took offense to his insight
0:04:29 on who needs abortions.
0:04:30 Let’s start with the words
0:04:34 Congressman Matt Gaetz spoke in July, 2022,
0:04:38 at the Turning Point USA Student Action Summit.
0:04:40 Why is it that the women
0:04:43 with the least likelihood of getting pregnant
0:04:47 are the ones most worried about having abortions?
0:04:50 Nobody wants to impregnate you if you look like a thumb.
0:04:53 He offended many people with his statements.
0:04:56 Among them was Olivia Giuliana.
0:04:59 She is a, in her words,
0:05:02 queer plus-sized Latina activist.
0:05:05 She’s in her 20s and she fired off a tweet in response.
0:05:10 It’s come to my attention that Matt Gaetz, a legend pedophile,
0:05:13 has says it’s always the odious five-foot-two,
0:05:18 350-pound women that nobody wants to impregnate
0:05:20 who rally for abortion.
0:05:23 I’m actually 5’11”, 6’4″ in heels.
0:05:27 I wear them so the small men like you
0:05:29 are reminded of your place.
0:05:32 Gaetz returned fire with a photo of Giuliana
0:05:36 with a tweet that said, “Dander raised”.
0:05:40 Olivia then turned the controversy into a fundraising effort
0:05:44 for abortion rights that raised $2.5 million.
0:05:46 She is a beacon to Gen Z
0:05:48 and is leading the transition of power
0:05:50 to the next generation alongside,
0:05:54 such as Malala Yusof Zai, David Hogue,
0:05:57 Greta Thunberg, and Maxwell Frost.
0:06:00 The goal of this book is to help you make a difference,
0:06:01 just like Giuliana.
0:06:05 First, let’s define what being remarkable means.
0:06:09 It does not mean amassing wealth, power, or fame.
0:06:11 There are people who have done this
0:06:13 and are not remarkable.
0:06:16 And there are people who haven’t and are.
0:06:18 In my book, being remarkable means
0:06:20 that you are making a difference
0:06:22 and making the world a better place.
0:06:24 However, you are not competing
0:06:27 with Olivia, Jane Goodall, or Steve Jobs,
0:06:31 although I won’t dissuade you if that’s your goal.
0:06:34 Just know that it’s enough to improve one life,
0:06:36 even your own, one organization,
0:06:39 one habitat, or one classroom.
0:06:42 Being remarkable also means you are a good person.
0:06:46 People use words such as empathetic, honest,
0:06:48 and compassionate to describe you.
0:06:52 If offered the chance, they would love to join your Ohana,
0:06:55 the Hawaiian word for the community of people
0:06:58 who support and care for you.
0:06:59 I can provide the roadmap,
0:07:02 along with some inspirational examples,
0:07:04 but only you can do the work.
0:07:08 Being remarkable is neither innate nor conferred.
0:07:11 If it were, you wouldn’t need this book.
0:07:12 Sources.
0:07:15 I use two sources of information and inspiration
0:07:17 to write this book.
0:07:20 The first source is several hundred remarkable people.
0:07:22 Although they were not necessarily wealthy,
0:07:24 powerful, or famous,
0:07:26 they all made the world a better place.
0:07:31 They personify empathy, resilience, creativity, and grace.
0:07:33 They were guests on my podcast, Remarkable People,
0:07:37 and include people such as Olivia, Jane Goodall,
0:07:40 Stacey Abrams, Mark Rober, Carol Dweck,
0:07:44 Ken Robinson, Steve Wozniak, Margaret Atwood,
0:07:46 Julia Cameron, Temple Grandin,
0:07:49 and Bob Cialdini to name a few.
0:07:52 The second source is my first-hand experiences.
0:07:55 I’ve been the chief evangelist of Apple and Canva,
0:07:58 worked for Google and Mercedes-Benz,
0:08:00 and started three companies.
0:08:05 All told, I’ve been a son, father, husband, uncle,
0:08:08 brother, evangelist, entrepreneur, investor,
0:08:13 author, speaker, podcaster, mentor, ATM,
0:08:15 and Wikipedia trustee.
0:08:17 Structure.
0:08:20 Another quote, this one from Voltaire.
0:08:23 “Twenty volume folios will never make a revolution.
0:08:27 It’s the little pocket pamphlets that are to be feared.
0:08:31 Nonfiction books tend to be a morass of 300-page tomes
0:08:33 that extol one idea.
0:08:36 I should know, I’ve written several of them.
0:08:39 In this book, however, less is more,
0:08:42 and so it is as succinct as possible.
0:08:44 There are three parts.
0:08:48 Growth, which is about building your foundation.
0:08:51 Grit, which is about implementing your aspirations.
0:08:55 And grace, which is about uplifting and inspiring.
0:09:00 Growth, grit, and grace are necessary to make a difference.
0:09:02 I present them in approximate sequential order,
0:09:06 but becoming remarkable isn’t necessarily linear.
0:09:10 Feel free to jump around the book as your needs dictate.
0:09:13 Each part of this book consists of three chapters.
0:09:16 Each chapter in turn contains sections
0:09:19 that explain methods for achieving the chapter’s objective.
0:09:22 Each section begins with an assessment
0:09:24 of who can use the section’s ideas.
0:09:28 Remember, chapters contain sections
0:09:31 and sections contain ideas.
0:09:34 I mentioned dozens of individuals in this book.
0:09:37 It’s unlikely that you will recognize everyone.
0:09:38 To help you identify them,
0:09:43 there is a list of profiles at the end of this book.
0:09:47 In summary, utilizing a free real-world examples,
0:09:52 circa 2023, think remarkable is the elements of style,
0:09:56 not the Chicago manual style.
0:10:00 Tender, not e-harmony, and TikTok, not Ted.
0:10:02 Let’s do this.
0:10:05 Making a difference in being remarkable are not easy,
0:10:07 but you won’t regret trying.
0:10:09 When you make a difference and are remarkable,
0:10:12 you live a life that matters, reflects your best self,
0:10:16 and inspires others to be remarkable as well.
0:10:19 One last subtle but critical point.
0:10:21 The remarkable people I interviewed
0:10:23 did not decide one day to be remarkable
0:10:26 and then dedicate their life to this goal.
0:10:29 Their motivation was outward focused and tactical,
0:10:34 save a species, rise from poverty, invent a cool device,
0:10:36 save democracy, and the like.
0:10:40 In pursuing these kinds of goals, they became remarkable,
0:10:43 but becoming remarkable wasn’t their objective.
0:10:46 This book isn’t about how to repackage, rebrand,
0:10:48 or reposition yourself.
0:10:50 My message is simple.
0:10:53 If you do remarkable things and make a difference,
0:10:55 people will call you remarkable.
0:10:58 In fact, you couldn’t stop them if you tried,
0:11:00 so let’s get started.
0:11:04 I wrote that in Santa Cruz, California, 2023.
0:11:08 Now, I added a little story after that.
0:11:10 So, listen to this story.
0:11:12 This is a good story.
0:11:14 There’s one more story inside the story
0:11:18 of Lee Klaus showing us the Think Different campaign.
0:11:21 At the end of the meeting, he said to Steve,
0:11:23 “I have two copies of these ads.
0:11:26 “I’ll give one to you and one to Guy.”
0:11:29 Steve, as only Steve would, responded,
0:11:33 “Don’t give Guy a copy, just give me a copy.”
0:11:36 For me, this was a man or mouse moment
0:11:39 that you don’t want to look back on and think,
0:11:42 “Why did I wimp out?”
0:11:43 So, I didn’t.
0:11:45 Right then and there, in front of everybody,
0:11:49 I came back with, “Don’t you trust me, Steve?”
0:11:51 And he came back with, “I don’t.”
0:11:54 And I came back with, “That’s okay, Steve,
0:11:56 “because I don’t trust you either.
0:11:58 “That probably cost me a few million dollars
0:12:03 “in stock options, but it was worth it.”
0:12:05 That’s the introduction to the book.
0:12:08 Think remarkable, now available.
0:12:11 If you only knew how many changes in edits
0:12:15 and re-drafts I made to that introduction,
0:12:18 you would be astounded.
0:12:21 Now, let me tell you about our guest today.
0:12:23 Her name is Janet Eckelman.
0:12:26 She’s truly a visionary artist.
0:12:29 She’s reshaping the interaction of sculpture,
0:12:32 architecture, urban design, and more.
0:12:35 Her work scaling buildings and city blocks
0:12:38 really defy categorization.
0:12:42 It’s wind, it’s light, it’s sculpture.
0:12:45 Hers is truly an immersive art.
0:12:48 When you go through SFO terminal two,
0:12:50 look up right after the security area
0:12:53 and you will see one of her sculptures.
0:12:55 Janet’s artistic journey took a big fork
0:13:00 after she won a Fulbright and went to India.
0:13:02 Her painting supplies never arrived,
0:13:04 so she had to find some kind of material
0:13:06 to build sculptures.
0:13:09 Luckily for us, she was in a fishing village.
0:13:11 She noticed the nets.
0:13:13 Now Janet is using materials as diverse
0:13:16 as atomized water particles
0:13:17 and highly engineered fiber
0:13:21 that is 15 times stronger than steel.
0:13:24 She blends ancient crafts with cutting-edge technology.
0:13:28 Her TED Talk, Taking Imagination Seriously,
0:13:31 has been translated into 35 languages
0:13:34 and has been viewed over two million times.
0:13:38 If her artistic accomplishments aren’t enough.
0:13:40 After you listen to this episode,
0:13:42 I bet you will agree with me
0:13:46 that she is a quote machine.
0:13:47 I’m Guy Kawasaki.
0:13:49 This is Remarkable People.
0:13:53 And now here’s the remarkable Janet Ekoman.
0:13:57 Have you ever thought what would have happened
0:14:01 if your paints did arrive in India?
0:14:03 – That’s an interesting question.
0:14:08 I suppose my life has many forking points
0:14:11 where going left or going right
0:14:15 would have led to an entirely different outcome.
0:14:18 So I can’t really imagine.
0:14:20 Maybe I would have been painting.
0:14:24 Maybe, I don’t really have an answer for that,
0:14:27 but I’m glad they didn’t.
0:14:30 I’ll tell you in retrospect,
0:14:32 it was very painful and difficult
0:14:37 having to realize my entire plan could not unfold
0:14:41 and having to deal with the possibility
0:14:44 of complete abject failure.
0:14:48 And starting to experiment
0:14:50 with the things that were around me,
0:14:52 which started with bronze casting,
0:14:55 and then that was too limiting.
0:14:57 So I started drilling holes in the bronzes
0:14:59 and then tying into them.
0:15:03 And then I saw the fishermen and looked at their nets
0:15:05 and thought, well, that’s a way
0:15:10 of creating volumetric form without heavy solid material
0:15:13 and a way to express these moving gestures
0:15:17 that I was seeking in a much larger form.
0:15:21 And by the way, I had almost no budget for shipping.
0:15:24 And so the fact that I could fold up giant nets
0:15:28 into a small box and carry it with me on the train in India
0:15:31 was a real practical necessity.
0:15:35 – And did the paint ever show up or the end of story?
0:15:36 – They did.
0:15:39 The funny thing is they showed up like a week
0:15:41 before I was leaving India
0:15:45 after all three exhibitions had completed.
0:15:48 And I donated them to the art school,
0:15:51 the National Institute of Design, where I was teaching.
0:15:54 So I thought that was a kind of cosmic laugh.
0:15:58 – Man makes plans, but God lives.
0:15:59 – Yes, yes.
0:16:03 So in the Steve Jobs Stanford commencement address,
0:16:06 one of his big points was that
0:16:09 you can only connect the dots looking backwards.
0:16:12 So you would have to say the paint’s not arriving
0:16:15 is a dot, it’s a fork.
0:16:19 And then you can connect that to you being desperate,
0:16:23 figuring out that you could use nets as an art form.
0:16:26 But it’s not like you landed in India and said,
0:16:27 “I’m gonna use nets.”
0:16:30 It was good fortune, let’s say.
0:16:34 – It was an act of desperation.
0:16:37 And frankly, when you think about going backwards
0:16:40 and looking at the dots in hindsight,
0:16:43 there are a million of these little moments
0:16:47 of decision-making where something fails.
0:16:50 That’s not the only time that disaster struck.
0:16:55 My entire career is a series of disasters striking
0:17:00 and my trying to find the best adaptation
0:17:03 at the moment to serve my goals.
0:17:08 – Okay, now you just opened up a really great segue.
0:17:12 Tell us about more disasters, we like disaster stories.
0:17:15 – Okay, I was invited to create the artwork
0:17:20 for something called the Biennial of the Americas in 2010,
0:17:23 which was being held in Denver.
0:17:27 They invited the 35 presidents and prime ministers
0:17:30 from all the countries of the Western Hemisphere,
0:17:32 they’re all arriving and they wanted an artist
0:17:37 to express the interconnectedness of nations in an artwork.
0:17:43 And I designed an artwork and up to that point in my work,
0:17:49 I was using steel armatures that were like bent steel pipes.
0:17:54 Think of your roller coaster, like giant steel pipes.
0:17:59 But when we went to explore installing this work
0:18:02 over the street, it would be far too heavy.
0:18:05 There was no possible way to create this,
0:18:09 especially with wind and all of the engineering constraints.
0:18:13 So it was, you know, dead in the water, my project.
0:18:16 And at that point I was like, well,
0:18:20 what if I found a really strong fiber?
0:18:23 Couldn’t I make a grid like an XY axis
0:18:26 and then pick up a point anywhere I needed
0:18:29 to create the shape I wanted?
0:18:34 And I went searching and I found an incredible fiber,
0:18:37 ultra high molecular weight polyethylene
0:18:42 that is more than 15 times stronger than steel pound for pound.
0:18:44 So it was really light.
0:18:47 It’s what they used for the Mars rover to tether it.
0:18:51 And suddenly this complete disaster
0:18:54 of not being able to build my steel armature
0:18:57 to hold my sculptural form,
0:19:02 became this whole door opening into a new experience,
0:19:05 being able to bring very lightweight sculptures
0:19:07 all over the world.
0:19:11 They pack up into a little bitty box and then they unfurl
0:19:15 and they are tensioned into the buildings
0:19:19 and infrastructure around the work and the space.
0:19:24 And one of the exciting things is that now I can suspend
0:19:29 artwork above streets, cars and people and bicycles,
0:19:32 all of life can be moving underneath these works.
0:19:37 And they’re literally laced into the fabric of the city.
0:19:38 And I’ll add one thing,
0:19:43 which is it’s an environmentally sustainable approach
0:19:46 because the city is already built.
0:19:50 We’ve invested so much energy and carbon
0:19:53 in all the things that we already have.
0:19:57 So if I can create art that can just lace
0:20:01 into the pre-existing structure we have,
0:20:05 I’m not adding or using any new carbon.
0:20:10 I’m literally using what we already have.
0:20:14 – But tell me at the completely tactical level.
0:20:18 So you’re staying in Denver and you see this problem.
0:20:20 The steel is too heavy.
0:20:22 No, did you go to Home Depot
0:20:24 and look for this magical material?
0:20:27 How did you actually find this material?
0:20:29 – Oh, that’s a good question.
0:20:31 I’m a big researcher.
0:20:34 So it was clear that the project was dead in the water.
0:20:39 And I started calling and asking experts and friends
0:20:44 and asking friends to recommend other friends
0:20:46 and like talking to everyone.
0:20:50 It turned out this is a fiber that is,
0:20:51 I mentioned is used in space,
0:20:54 but it’s also used in climbing ropes.
0:20:56 And it turns out it’s taken me years
0:20:58 to learn how to work with it
0:21:02 because while it’s really, really strong and light,
0:21:05 it’s not strong against ultraviolet rays.
0:21:10 So I have learned how to braid a sleeve
0:21:13 to physically protect it from sun,
0:21:16 ways of working with it over the years,
0:21:18 but not for that first time.
0:21:21 It’s the power of people that solves the problems for me.
0:21:25 I ask my friends and they connect me to more people
0:21:29 and maybe a little bit like being a reporter or something.
0:21:32 It’s like I’m investigating a question
0:21:36 and I just go as far as I can, never giving up.
0:21:41 – That’s a lesson in being remarkable in itself.
0:21:44 – I don’t know, indefatigable or just bullheaded
0:21:47 is probably what my family would say.
0:21:49 But I really won’t give up.
0:21:54 And I do believe that if I just keep exploring and thinking
0:21:59 and taking it apart and putting it together again,
0:22:04 that I will find an unexpected solution.
0:22:07 And that might come from being an artist
0:22:10 because the practice and the way I learned,
0:22:13 it was I would start a drawing or a painting
0:22:16 and if it wasn’t good, I’d tear it apart
0:22:20 and put it back together, turn it upside down.
0:22:25 There’s a practice of deconstructing and reconstructing.
0:22:29 In art that I think has been helpful to me
0:22:33 in other challenges in my work.
0:22:35 – Going back to the prior,
0:22:39 the word I was looking for embedded energy,
0:22:44 the approach of lacing these completely fiber soft sculptures
0:22:50 into things we already have, the skyscrapers and highways,
0:22:53 that is using the embedded energy
0:22:55 that we have already invested
0:22:59 to create new cultural environments above our heads.
0:23:00 – That’s great.
0:23:03 Do you know who Angela Duckworth is?
0:23:06 – I don’t, I’ve heard the name but I can’t place it.
0:23:11 – Is a MacArthur fellow and she wanted for her work
0:23:14 in the topic of grit.
0:23:18 So what you just described is a pretty good definition
0:23:21 of grit that you encountered this problem
0:23:24 with steel structures and you wouldn’t give up
0:23:27 and you asked all these friends and friends of friends
0:23:31 and you found the solution as opposed to packed up
0:23:32 and went home.
0:23:35 – I appreciate your calling it grit.
0:23:38 For sure my family would call it bullheadedness
0:23:40 or stubbornness, I just won’t give up.
0:23:43 But it is combined with a belief
0:23:48 that I might find light at the end of the tunnel.
0:23:52 I do typically believe that if I keep going,
0:23:55 keep taking it apart and putting it together again,
0:23:59 keep getting new ideas, keep asking questions
0:24:01 that will lead me somewhere.
0:24:06 And I think the key is if I can keep myself open
0:24:09 to where it leads me,
0:24:14 that is usually what will render a positive outcome.
0:24:20 If I’m stuck on the way I frame a question as very linear,
0:24:25 if I thought, how do I make steel work as an armature?
0:24:29 How do I find a way to have this heavy thing?
0:24:34 That would never have led to any surprising new solutions.
0:24:37 I really had to open up the whole frame of the question
0:24:42 and that has opened up a whole new trajectory for my work.
0:24:47 And it’s opened up places that it can go and scale
0:24:52 in the city to go 750 feet
0:24:57 over water and highway and pedestrian lanes.
0:25:01 So that would never be possible
0:25:05 if I were using these incredibly heavy structures.
0:25:07 (upbeat music)
0:25:20 – Janet, you are just a quote machine.
0:25:21 – You’re a talented interviewer.
0:25:25 – Okay, now while we’re on the topic of grit,
0:25:30 walk us through the tactics and the real world situation
0:25:36 of what’s the process of getting approval and permits
0:25:39 for sculptures that are the size of a building?
0:25:42 Surely there must be some people who are gonna say
0:25:46 that your nets are gonna capture birds and kill them
0:25:49 or there’s gotta be somebody who’s gonna say something
0:25:51 negative about what you’re doing.
0:25:54 So how do you get past the government permit process
0:25:57 and all the bullshit to put up your sculptures?
0:26:00 – First thing, people always are concerned
0:26:04 that it will hurt the birds and it doesn’t.
0:26:05 That’s the good news.
0:26:09 I’ve been building sculptures for 20 years now
0:26:13 and we have never had a case of a bird dying
0:26:16 as a result of falling into the net.
0:26:18 It turns out the things that injure birds,
0:26:23 in terms of meshes are small stiff mesh like deer netting.
0:26:27 That’s a danger for birds and also things
0:26:32 that are transparent like glass in a skyscraper.
0:26:34 That’s dangerous for birds ’cause they can’t see it.
0:26:36 My sculpture is different in every way
0:26:39 because first of all, birds can see it.
0:26:43 It’s soft and flexible, so it’s moving in the wind.
0:26:46 And in fact, if you’re trying to keep birds away,
0:26:49 say the Seafoad restaurants in Florida
0:26:53 where my large sculpture is located,
0:26:56 the way they keep birds away is they put like kite tails up.
0:26:58 And by having something move in the wind
0:27:02 that really enables birds to see it immediately.
0:27:05 But we’ve had all kinds of protests
0:27:08 and PETA and the Audubon Society
0:27:12 all because they think it might be a danger to birds.
0:27:16 But they haven’t in fact looked at the record
0:27:20 and we consulted with engineers, environmental engineers.
0:27:23 And now we understand why the work is safe
0:27:25 with respect to birds.
0:27:26 – Okay, but not just birds,
0:27:28 but how about the permit process?
0:27:31 You can’t just go to downtown Denver
0:27:33 and put up something like this over the street.
0:27:35 Like, how does that work?
0:27:38 – Well, there is a process.
0:27:40 It takes patience and forethought
0:27:43 and a lot of collaboration.
0:27:47 But the truth is I also think there’s some goodwill.
0:27:49 And there are always circumstances
0:27:51 where people say no, no, no, no.
0:27:56 But somehow in my life, people have given me a chance.
0:27:59 And once you’ve done it once
0:28:00 and you have a track record,
0:28:05 almost every city, the first answer is no.
0:28:07 Often it’s like they’re concerned
0:28:10 that people in their cars are gonna look up,
0:28:12 be distracted and have an accident.
0:28:15 And it turns out people don’t.
0:28:19 But there’s always a concern
0:28:23 that having this artwork suspended above a major highway
0:28:27 or a street is going to create pandemonium.
0:28:31 So I think it’s hard to get your first break
0:28:33 in every regard.
0:28:35 My first large sculpture in a building,
0:28:38 my first large sculpture over a major street
0:28:39 and thoroughfare,
0:28:44 each of these things is difficult the first time.
0:28:47 And I don’t know.
0:28:50 Maybe it’s that I recognize
0:28:53 they’re not gonna trust a visual artist like myself.
0:28:57 So I bring in my fabulous colleagues,
0:29:00 these brilliant structural engineers
0:29:02 and aeronautical engineers.
0:29:04 And so I do reach out,
0:29:07 we were just doing a piece in Germany, in Munich,
0:29:11 in a historic place, the Odeon’s Plots.
0:29:15 And here it was a surprising obstacle.
0:29:18 It was the fire marshal who said no.
0:29:19 And let me tell you,
0:29:23 we’d all been working many months, everything was go.
0:29:26 And suddenly the fire marshal says no.
0:29:31 And I then went and I found a fire specialist engineer
0:29:36 and we worked through each question.
0:29:41 And it turned out I had to take further laboratory tests.
0:29:43 I already had fire lab tests
0:29:47 on each material in my sculpture, each type of fiber.
0:29:48 But what in Germany,
0:29:52 they made me weave all the different ones together
0:29:55 in the quantity and method that I use them.
0:29:57 And then the entire apparatus
0:30:00 had to then be tested by the laboratory.
0:30:04 And luckily it passed because we were already
0:30:07 past the deadline where we had to say go.
0:30:11 And my life is not without anxiety.
0:30:14 I think actually one of the job requirements
0:30:19 to do what I do is to be able to tolerate anxiety and risk
0:30:22 because I’m trying to do things
0:30:26 that have never been done before and it’s uncomfortable.
0:30:29 Let me tell you, it’s not comfortable for me either,
0:30:33 but I have to find a way to calm myself
0:30:37 through each of these difficult moments
0:30:39 ’cause there are lots of them.
0:30:43 And it may look effortless when you are in a city
0:30:45 and one of my sculptures floating above you.
0:30:48 Oh, how easy, how does she do it?
0:30:51 But in fact, there are just a million challenges.
0:30:55 There are hundreds of times people say no
0:30:58 and I have to find a way around it.
0:31:02 – Okay, so now you opened up another line on questioning,
0:31:05 which is how do you calm yourself?
0:31:06 – You have a great smile.
0:31:09 Our listeners can’t see your smile,
0:31:13 but it really is a pleasure to be asked questions
0:31:15 by you guys. – How do you calm yourself
0:31:18 in the midst of all this aggravation
0:31:20 and the fire marshal and all this stuff?
0:31:23 What’s your secret to calmness?
0:31:26 – Oh my goodness, I’m not sure.
0:31:28 I play Scrabble on my phone.
0:31:32 (both laughing)
0:31:34 I don’t know, it’s such a good question.
0:31:39 I will go take a walk when I’m feeling really stuck
0:31:43 and also my studio is right next to my house
0:31:46 and I often will come down and start cooking.
0:31:48 I chop a lot of vegetables.
0:31:53 You’ll see me, I’m having a really thorny problem at work
0:31:55 if I’m down in the kitchen at lunch,
0:31:59 chopping onions and celery and carrots, making mirpaw.
0:32:03 Cooking is somehow calming
0:32:08 and maybe it’s the transformation of one thing into another.
0:32:13 Seeing my chopped onions become transparent and tasty.
0:32:15 (both laughing)
0:32:17 I don’t know, I’ll think on that.
0:32:21 If I can come up with something else, I’ll, what do I do?
0:32:25 Yeah, I take a deep breath and I don’t know.
0:32:28 In the end, I just believe in my vision.
0:32:31 I can’t explain that.
0:32:33 – That’s why you’re an artist, right?
0:32:37 – Yeah, I will say what drives me as an artist
0:32:42 is creating something that I myself want to be underneath.
0:32:45 It’s like, I wish this existed in the world.
0:32:48 If it did, I wouldn’t have to be an artist,
0:32:51 but I want to feel a certain way.
0:32:54 And if I can’t find that, I’ve got to create it.
0:32:56 And that is what drives me.
0:32:59 I’m trying to create the space I want to be
0:33:03 in the world I want to see.
0:33:07 – My God, Janet, you really are a freaking quote machine.
0:33:11 One of the things we’ve noticed in our podcast
0:33:15 is that one of the richest veins for innovation
0:33:18 and remarkable achievement
0:33:20 is you build what you want to use.
0:33:23 That’s why Wozniak made the Apple One.
0:33:25 He wanted to use an Apple One.
0:33:28 It wasn’t because he was market driven.
0:33:31 And I don’t think you’re consulting some McKinsey report
0:33:34 or Goldman Sachs report about the growing need
0:33:38 for sculptures in municipal places, right?
0:33:40 You’re building the sculpture you want to be under,
0:33:45 not the one that McKinsey said there’s a growing market for.
0:33:47 – There sure was no market
0:33:49 for something that had never existed.
0:33:53 That’s an interesting observation.
0:33:58 It does help if the goal is coming from inside
0:34:01 because I don’t get confused.
0:34:03 I’m not listening to anyone else.
0:34:05 I’m listening inside, yeah.
0:34:08 – My God, Janet, we could just quote you all day.
0:34:11 You’re like one Instagram quote machine.
0:34:15 – After college, I went to live on my own
0:34:17 in a small village in Bali.
0:34:19 That was my graduate school.
0:34:23 And I think what I needed to learn
0:34:26 was how to hear my own voice,
0:34:28 like how to listen to myself.
0:34:31 And it was not something I knew how to do.
0:34:36 Education for me had opened up many interesting avenues,
0:34:41 but it didn’t teach me how to listen internally.
0:34:44 And that actually took practice.
0:34:49 I would draw every day and I’m a right-handed person.
0:34:54 And so I would write out questions with my right hand
0:34:58 and I would answer them by writing with my left hand
0:35:03 with a very jagged, almost like a child’s script.
0:35:07 And I really was teaching myself to hear myself.
0:35:09 – Wow, so with hindsight,
0:35:12 you get rejected by all seven art schools.
0:35:14 What’s the lesson there?
0:35:17 And here you are, famous artists.
0:35:18 – What’s the lesson there?
0:35:21 Everybody thinks I’m like really angry
0:35:23 with those art schools, but I’m not.
0:35:26 I actually, they made the right decision.
0:35:30 At that point, my art didn’t really have a center.
0:35:34 I didn’t have my own voice as an artist yet.
0:35:35 That work wasn’t good.
0:35:40 I don’t think that says what your potential
0:35:43 is different from your product.
0:35:45 As a young person applying to art school,
0:35:49 what I had to show was really nothing of merit.
0:35:51 It took me a long time
0:35:56 and it took me time to teach myself to hear myself.
0:35:59 And frankly, I don’t think you develop
0:36:01 your own voice in a minute.
0:36:03 It takes years.
0:36:06 And our culture is very focused on youth,
0:36:08 but in fact, for an artist,
0:36:11 it takes years and years to develop
0:36:13 and have something to say.
0:36:15 And that’s the other thing.
0:36:19 Your art, if it’s communicating something,
0:36:23 it takes time to figure out something worth saying.
0:36:26 So I recommend to young artists
0:36:30 to study everything that interests them, all of it.
0:36:33 Go as deeply as possible, read, learn,
0:36:36 talk to people on every subject possible,
0:36:40 study science, study history, look at philosophy.
0:36:45 I think those are the ways that an artist should be trained.
0:36:46 It’s good to have skills,
0:36:51 but it’s not really about how well you can copy
0:36:55 and charcoal the images of things before you.
0:36:59 – So is there a place for art school and art?
0:37:01 – It’s a beautiful practice
0:37:04 to develop your visual skills
0:37:08 and your ability to paint and draw
0:37:11 and sculpt from reality.
0:37:13 Art schools do many things
0:37:16 and they can become a place of community,
0:37:20 which I think is the greatest value of an art school really,
0:37:25 is that you meet like-minded thinking people
0:37:29 and you stimulate questions with each other
0:37:33 and that becomes creatively interesting and exciting.
0:37:35 The faculty and the students together
0:37:37 creating that community.
0:37:41 So that is what I see art school as offering.
0:37:46 I think an education for an artist needs to be more than that
0:37:50 and many art schools do include study of science
0:37:52 and mathematics and history
0:37:55 and all of the social sciences and humanities.
0:37:58 I think to be a human being living today,
0:38:00 we need to know all of these things
0:38:03 and I am still a student.
0:38:05 In fact, I was auditing a class,
0:38:08 I’m taking a class right now and I love being a student.
0:38:11 I’ll be a student my whole life informally,
0:38:14 but in fact, I often will go back and take classes
0:38:16 when there are new topics I wanna learn about.
0:38:18 The class I’m taking right now
0:38:22 is taught by a comparative religion scholar
0:38:25 and it’s called Ritual and the Life Cycle
0:38:28 and I’m learning so much.
0:38:31 Today’s lecture was about time,
0:38:34 cyclical time versus linear time
0:38:36 and these are things I think about as an artist.
0:38:39 I’m very, very interested in time
0:38:43 and how humans conceptualize time
0:38:48 and how we live in different types of time simultaneously.
0:38:52 I am living at a human time in my own,
0:38:54 what am I gonna make for dinner?
0:38:58 And that’s like daily time and there’s the weekly cycle
0:39:00 and there’s the annual cycle,
0:39:03 but there’s also geologic time.
0:39:07 Where am I in relation to the history of the earth
0:39:09 and all of our endeavors,
0:39:12 like all of these different concepts of time
0:39:15 are functioning simultaneously.
0:39:17 So that’s my thought.
0:39:19 – Up next on Remarkable People.
0:39:22 – My dad said, did any of your professors
0:39:26 think you have talent and say you should pursue this?
0:39:29 Well, no, absolutely not.
0:39:31 No one thought I had talent.
0:39:33 My mom, she wrote me a letter.
0:39:35 That’s a worthy goal.
0:39:37 Go make 99 paintings.
0:39:41 And enclosed was a check for $199
0:39:43 to go buy paint.
0:39:45 So that was the seed funding of my art career.
0:39:52 – If you find our show valuable,
0:39:54 please do us a favor and subscribe,
0:39:55 rate and review it.
0:39:58 Even better, forward it to a friend,
0:40:00 a big mahalo to you for doing this.
0:40:05 – Welcome back to Remarkable People with Guy Kawasaki.
0:40:11 – Now I want you to put aside all your modesty
0:40:14 and answer the next question, okay?
0:40:15 – Oh no.
0:40:17 – And this question is,
0:40:21 so you get rejected by all these art schools
0:40:25 and then you go and you continue to paint for 10 years
0:40:29 and Bada Bing, Bada Bang, you get a Fulbright.
0:40:32 How do you go from being rejected from all art schools
0:40:33 to getting a Fulbright?
0:40:35 Walk me through that path.
0:40:36 – Oh my goodness.
0:40:38 I’m such a crazy person.
0:40:41 I was rejected by all the art schools.
0:40:46 I decided to study and become an artist in my own way,
0:40:50 mostly ’cause I couldn’t imagine not making art.
0:40:53 And I do think that’s important
0:40:57 that it’s not about being an artist.
0:41:01 It’s about the day-to-day spending your time
0:41:05 engaged in the practice of making, whatever it is.
0:41:08 People are always so worried, am I a writer,
0:41:10 a poet, this or that?
0:41:13 It’s not about an identification.
0:41:15 It’s just life is in the moment.
0:41:16 If you like doing something
0:41:18 and you can’t live without it, then do it.
0:41:20 It’s that simple.
0:41:24 So I was just doing it.
0:41:25 Sounds like a Nike ad.
0:41:27 (laughing)
0:41:31 But it seemed to me that my goal was to be making art.
0:41:34 To be an artist was to live the life of an artist
0:41:36 and I was living that life.
0:41:39 Mostly people are worried about
0:41:40 how they’re gonna get their income.
0:41:44 So I mostly worked on living on very, very little.
0:41:46 So I didn’t need much money.
0:41:49 I think that helped, ’cause it freed me up
0:41:52 to spend a lot of time teaching myself
0:41:54 how to hear my own voice.
0:41:57 How did I get from there to getting the full point?
0:41:59 (laughing)
0:42:02 One foot in front of the other.
0:42:04 You know, maybe it surprised me.
0:42:08 I suppose you take the strengths you’ve got
0:42:10 and you package ’em up.
0:42:12 That’s a hard one to explain.
0:42:13 But it took 10 years.
0:42:15 I mean, that didn’t happen in a minute.
0:42:19 I was making art, I was exhibiting art.
0:42:22 Whatever I sold, that’s what I would live on.
0:42:23 That’s how I figured it out.
0:42:26 If I had a lean year, it was a lean year.
0:42:28 (laughing)
0:42:33 And by doing it a lot, it helped my work to grow.
0:42:36 And yeah, I don’t know.
0:42:36 Got lucky.
0:42:39 – How do you even get a full break?
0:42:42 Do you apply for it or do they reach out to you?
0:42:43 – No, you apply for it.
0:42:45 And this is what I will say,
0:42:50 is that I applied for things time and time and time again.
0:42:53 From the outside, it looks like,
0:42:56 oh, she has achieved everything so effortless.
0:42:59 Look, she got a Guggenheim grant, blah, blah, blah.
0:43:01 But you don’t know, I think I applied
0:43:04 for the Guggenheim seven times.
0:43:06 I just didn’t give up.
0:43:09 And the other thing is I would apply to many things.
0:43:11 I had friends who’d apply for one grant,
0:43:14 they didn’t get it, and then they’d be demoralized.
0:43:16 And then they’d give up being an artist.
0:43:18 And for me, it’s like, if you’re going fishing,
0:43:22 it’s better to have a lot of fishing poles out there.
0:43:24 You’re more likely to catch one fish.
0:43:25 And frankly, you only need one.
0:43:30 I applied a lot and I would apply year after year.
0:43:32 I’m gonna look up and figure out
0:43:34 how many times I applied for that Guggenheim.
0:43:36 But I know it was more than seven times.
0:43:40 And that goes back to being able to tolerate anxiety
0:43:43 and also being able to tolerate rejection.
0:43:46 If it were unbearable for me to be rejected,
0:43:48 I could not do this.
0:43:51 Because I get rejection even at this age
0:43:53 and having all this experience,
0:43:56 I still get rejections all the time.
0:44:01 If I didn’t learn how to let it roll off my back like water,
0:44:03 just think of it as raindrops.
0:44:06 They come, they go, just move on.
0:44:08 – My son is an athlete.
0:44:12 And well, and I play tennis too.
0:44:13 So when you play tennis,
0:44:17 if you’re busy thinking about how you made a bad shot
0:44:18 and it went wrong,
0:44:20 if your brain is still thinking about that
0:44:22 or if you’re skiing,
0:44:24 if you’re skiing and you realize your weight
0:44:27 is too far back and you’re thinking about that,
0:44:28 then it’s all gone.
0:44:32 It’s like, just get yourself forward,
0:44:34 think about the exact new moment.
0:44:39 You’ve got to be present right now, this nanosecond.
0:44:41 And the rejections, they come,
0:44:45 but if I can just let them go,
0:44:47 then I have the energy to keep moving forward
0:44:49 to keep trying.
0:44:52 And I just keep reminding people
0:44:54 that they’re looking from the outside.
0:44:56 They don’t know behind the scenes
0:44:59 how many rejections are there.
0:45:01 That I was rejected from seven art schools.
0:45:04 You only know that ’cause I told you.
0:45:06 No one would know otherwise, right?
0:45:09 – Did you learn this from your mother or father
0:45:11 or something or is it in your DNA?
0:45:13 Or how did you come to this point
0:45:15 where it rolls off your back?
0:45:17 – Well, it’s interesting when I,
0:45:19 both of my parents are now gone,
0:45:22 but they each had a different point of view
0:45:26 when I came out to them that my goal was to be an artist.
0:45:28 Nobody wants their kid to be an artist.
0:45:32 That’s a life of hardship and poverty.
0:45:35 And my dad said, did any of your professors
0:45:38 think you have talent and say you should pursue this?
0:45:42 Well, no, absolutely not.
0:45:43 No one thought I had talent.
0:45:45 My mom, she wrote me a letter.
0:45:47 That’s a worthy goal.
0:45:50 Go make 99 paintings.
0:45:55 And enclosed was a check for $199 to go buy paint.
0:45:58 So that was the seed funding of my art career.
0:46:01 The $199 to go buy paint.
0:46:04 But what was even more important
0:46:09 was when she told me, go make 99 paintings.
0:46:13 I think that gave me permission to have the first 98 be junk.
0:46:17 I wasn’t expecting a masterpiece.
0:46:21 It wasn’t about making the great artwork,
0:46:22 the great American novel.
0:46:27 You know, all of the things that we aspire to have or be,
0:46:32 it was about just do it, the practice of doing it,
0:46:34 and do it over and over and over again.
0:46:38 It wasn’t nine paintings, go make 99 paintings.
0:46:43 And for a young person, I think that gave me permission.
0:46:46 And it’s interesting for me,
0:46:50 the transition from being a painter to becoming a sculptor
0:46:52 was actually very difficult.
0:46:55 And it was another artist who gave me permission,
0:46:57 Mia Westerlin-Rusen.
0:47:02 She was an accomplished senior female artist and she said,
0:47:06 “Oh, all of us sculptors used to be painters.”
0:47:08 And suddenly in my mind, I was like,
0:47:11 “Oh, I guess I could be a sculptor too then.”
0:47:15 There’s something about being given permission,
0:47:19 whether we give it to ourselves or someone gives it to you.
0:47:24 But that message, when I first declared my love
0:47:30 of the idea of living a life as an artist,
0:47:33 that message, go make 99 paintings,
0:47:38 that gave me permission to not be good.
0:47:43 And actually I think having permission to not be good,
0:47:45 to not expect the first thing.
0:47:48 If you came to my studio today,
0:47:53 you would see that I am on version 87 of a new commission
0:47:59 I’m creating for the Broad Institute about genomics.
0:48:02 Like, this is not an old lesson.
0:48:05 This is an everyday lesson for me,
0:48:08 is that I keep trying, I keep looking.
0:48:11 We pin them up or we put them on the computer screens,
0:48:14 we look at them together and we critique them
0:48:16 and I’m not attached.
0:48:18 I heard that Picasso, if he was painting
0:48:21 and there was a part he loved especially,
0:48:24 that he would paint that part out.
0:48:29 And there’s to let something develop and grow.
0:48:33 My work develops so much you would not recognize
0:48:35 where it came from.
0:48:40 And there are 99 iterations of every single major work
0:48:43 that nobody will ever see, they won’t know.
0:48:45 And if I built the first or the second
0:48:49 or the third iteration, I think my work would be junk.
0:48:52 So I am still learning this lesson,
0:48:56 like how to not be attached, how to find what’s good
0:49:01 and let go of what isn’t, how to go for what is essential
0:49:05 and let go of everything that is inessential.
0:49:09 That’s the only way to get a clear expression
0:49:13 of what it is as an artist I’m trying to communicate.
0:49:17 – Janet, do you know who Julia Cameron is?
0:49:18 – Oh, no, I don’t.
0:49:21 – She’s the, really, people think of her
0:49:24 as the mother of innovation and creativity.
0:49:25 – Okay.
0:49:28 – She’s written a book, I think sold 20 million copies
0:49:30 called “The Artist’s Way”.
0:49:31 – Oh.
0:49:35 – You are Julia Cameron, the second.
0:49:38 – Well, I’m just living it.
0:49:40 I’m just living it.
0:49:43 – Okay, now, this question may be like,
0:49:46 guy, it’s a little scary how your brain works,
0:49:50 but I want to know your work in Portugal
0:49:54 called S-H-E changes, right?
0:49:56 – Yeah.
0:50:01 – I wanna know why S-H-E as opposed to maybe S-E-A
0:50:06 because it’s in portal, near the sea.
0:50:07 So what is it?
0:50:10 Are you making a statement about you, she changing
0:50:13 or is this like women’s rights movement?
0:50:15 Why she changes?
0:50:16 What’s the homonym there?
0:50:17 What’s going on there?
0:50:22 – Well, the first thing I will tell you about my titles,
0:50:26 which is I often, I don’t know how much you want to know here,
0:50:29 but it’s like I have to meet the artwork
0:50:32 before I know its name.
0:50:34 So it’s not like I come up with an idea
0:50:38 and then I illustrate that preexisting concept.
0:50:43 It’s like the piece grows with its own organic evolution
0:50:46 and then I meet it and then I find its name.
0:50:49 And by the way, full disclosure,
0:50:51 when my first child was born,
0:50:55 I wrote on the form his full name
0:50:59 and then I was downstairs waiting for the taxi.
0:51:01 It was time to get in and I said to my husband,
0:51:03 “Pay the taxi and let him go.
0:51:05 “I’ve gotta go up and change the name.”
0:51:08 Because I realized that my son’s name
0:51:10 really had to be different.
0:51:14 – Wait, so what did it start at and what did it end at?
0:51:17 – I didn’t have a title and I was just racking my brain.
0:51:19 – No, no, no, your son.
0:51:20 – Oh, my son.
0:51:23 Oh, it was gonna, well, his first name is Sam
0:51:25 and he was gonna be Solomon.
0:51:27 And what’s it, isn’t that funny?
0:51:29 I’m now forgetting what was gonna be.
0:51:31 (laughing)
0:51:34 Jacob, Solomon Jacob and he’s Sammy.
0:51:38 He’s Sam, he’s a Samuel and not a Solomon.
0:51:40 And he’s no Jacob.
0:51:42 He’s got a middle name of Amitai,
0:51:45 but he could never be a Solomon.
0:51:48 That just isn’t him, he’s Sam, anyway.
0:51:50 But that’s the point, we had to meet him
0:51:53 before we could realize what his name was.
0:51:57 The name came with him, not from us really.
0:51:59 And with the sculpture in Portugal,
0:52:03 I couldn’t figure out what the title should be.
0:52:05 So I wasn’t able to give them,
0:52:07 often they wanna make like a bronze plaque
0:52:11 and they need time, but they were so angry at me
0:52:13 ’cause I couldn’t give them the title
0:52:14 so the plaque couldn’t be there.
0:52:16 (laughing)
0:52:18 I create a lot of trouble, guy.
0:52:21 She changes, what I like about it,
0:52:26 it’s not that it’s feminine or masculine,
0:52:30 it’s that a pronoun means,
0:52:33 it’s almost like a person or an entity.
0:52:38 And it sets up the fact that I have a relationship with you.
0:52:43 One of my paintings is titled “You Appear Calm and Collected.”
0:52:48 So they have different kinds of titles.
0:52:50 There’s a piece in Phoenix, Arizona,
0:52:54 called “Her Secret is Patience.”
0:53:00 So I wanna bring you into a relationship with the art,
0:53:04 one-on-one, like you and me.
0:53:07 So the pronouns in the work,
0:53:11 they’re often phrases, that’s what I’m getting at.
0:53:15 But it’s not about women’s rights, for sure, never, no.
0:53:16 (laughing)
0:53:21 But it is an exploration of our relationship, you and me.
0:53:26 And I would say there is a nurturing aspect to the works,
0:53:31 like you go underneath them and they are soft.
0:53:36 They are soft and enveloping and,
0:53:41 but porous and freeing and liberating at the same time.
0:53:46 If you think of that as a kind of larger feminine,
0:53:50 maybe in a Jungian sense, then I’ll take that.
0:53:55 – Okay, now Janet, let’s suppose that you go to Dali
0:54:00 or some AI image generator,
0:54:02 and you put in a prompt that says,
0:54:04 “I want something that’s light and airy
0:54:07 and moves with the currents in the air
0:54:11 and reflects and changes because of the constant movement.”
0:54:15 And it should be very large, like the size of a building.
0:54:19 And you put that prompt in and outspit something
0:54:21 that looks like you’d made.
0:54:26 Are you morally offended that AI has ripped you off
0:54:29 or what’s your attitude when that happens?
0:54:32 – I don’t know, I’d be open to using AI.
0:54:33 I think that’d be great.
0:54:35 It’s okay, here’s my space.
0:54:39 What are a hundred ways I could approach this space?
0:54:43 The thing is in the end, whatever AI generates
0:54:46 is just a set of options.
0:54:48 And then I would sculpt it and change it.
0:54:51 And so I’m not opposed to AI.
0:54:52 I think it’s a great tool
0:54:54 and we should all use it as much as we can.
0:54:59 And it could just make life move faster and easier.
0:55:00 I don’t know.
0:55:02 At least for me as a visual artist,
0:55:03 it’s never been a problem.
0:55:04 I don’t know.
0:55:08 – There are artists and writers who are just so pissed off
0:55:13 that AI has usurped their intellectual property
0:55:15 or their creativity.
0:55:17 – Oh, well as an artist,
0:55:20 if someone wants to collect my work,
0:55:23 they’re not gonna want an AI-generated copy.
0:55:27 They’re gonna want an actual sculpture by Janet Echelman,
0:55:28 I think.
0:55:29 – I hope.
0:55:31 – I’m not really worried about it.
0:55:33 – Okay, so do you do?
0:55:36 – But I respect and appreciate that might be different
0:55:39 with something that is more reproducible,
0:55:42 like a written word.
0:55:43 So.
0:55:47 – And can people go to galleries around the world
0:55:49 and buy one of your sculptures
0:55:52 or is everything the size of a building?
0:55:54 – Oh, I make smaller pieces,
0:55:57 but they are all unique and individual.
0:56:00 I’ve been actually making some smaller works
0:56:02 in private homes now.
0:56:05 And I never thought that that would interest me,
0:56:08 but it turns out it’s been a joy
0:56:12 to create something intimate and personal.
0:56:17 One is in California inside a new house in a hillside,
0:56:20 and it’s about that couple and for them.
0:56:23 And it was really a labor of love to create that work.
0:56:25 I do make smaller works,
0:56:27 but you can’t buy them in a store.
0:56:29 They’re not multiples.
0:56:32 I have done editions of prints before,
0:56:34 and I could do that again.
0:56:37 I liked it because then a lot of friends could have work,
0:56:39 and I like sharing.
0:56:41 And I’d like to make my work more accessible,
0:56:45 just ’cause I can’t make a million pieces myself,
0:56:47 each one distinct and original.
0:56:50 I could create something and make an edition.
0:56:52 So I’m open to that.
0:56:53 I would need a partner.
0:56:57 So if someone listening here wants to join in
0:57:00 and become a partner on that goal
0:57:03 of being able to share my art with more people,
0:57:05 I like the idea of that.
0:57:08 – It’s just, I’m so busy thinking of new ideas.
0:57:11 I just don’t think about commercialization.
0:57:13 It’s not that I’m opposed to it.
0:57:16 It just, there’s only so many minutes in a day.
0:57:19 And I’ve got other things on my mind.
0:57:24 I made a piece for a house in Mumbai, India.
0:57:28 And I got to know the family and their beliefs
0:57:29 and their interests.
0:57:33 And it’s about, it’s part of a religious text
0:57:34 that’s important to them.
0:57:37 It’s called “Without Beginning, Middle, or End.”
0:57:39 It’s from the Bhagavad Gita
0:57:41 because that’s their holy text.
0:57:43 And the piece is about rain,
0:57:46 how it evaporates and comes back as rain
0:57:48 and water that cycle.
0:57:49 – I don’t know, Guy.
0:57:51 If I come to your house and I get to know you
0:57:54 and I don’t even know what the piece would be
0:57:55 or what it would be about.
0:57:58 So, you’ll have to invite me.
0:58:02 I am between Boston and Massachusetts and Florida
0:58:04 are the two places where I’ve spent the most time.
0:58:06 – Do you ever get to San Francisco?
0:58:08 – Sometimes, I would love to.
0:58:09 Is that where you are? – Yes.
0:58:10 – All right.
0:58:14 I created a piece in your airport, in the SFO airport.
0:58:16 – Which terminal?
0:58:17 – Terminal two.
0:58:19 – That’s the United, right?
0:58:20 – American, yeah.
0:58:23 It was first in America when I first,
0:58:24 I think it’s America.
0:58:26 I don’t know what, who flies there now,
0:58:30 but I think it’s the newest domestic terminal, yeah.
0:58:34 – Okay, next time I go to SFO, I’m gonna look for it.
0:58:36 – Yes, all you have to do is look up.
0:58:38 – Yeah?
0:58:40 – Yep. – All right.
0:58:41 – I’ll come visit you.
0:58:43 – Is it right after security,
0:58:46 right next to the bookstore? – Yes, yes.
0:58:48 It’s right after security.
0:58:50 – Oh, then I’ve not seen it.
0:58:52 – Yes, in fact, when they hired me,
0:58:56 they said we need an artist to create a zone
0:58:59 of recomposure after security in the airport.
0:59:01 (laughing)
0:59:03 And I was like, oh no.
0:59:05 Oh my God, what am I taking on here?
0:59:06 And there it came.
0:59:09 The piece is called Every Beating Second.
0:59:13 And as you go into SFO airport into terminal two,
0:59:15 you’ve taken off your shoes
0:59:18 and put in your bag through the conveyor belt.
0:59:22 And then you look up and it’s meant to give you a moment
0:59:26 to really, you know, oppose yourself.
0:59:29 – Isn’t there a yoga or prayer room
0:59:32 right off the sculpture area there?
0:59:35 – Maybe, but it’s really about being
0:59:36 in the midst of regular life.
0:59:38 But it’s not about going apart.
0:59:42 It’s like the art and that feeling is right there.
0:59:45 Every beating second, life is right there.
0:59:48 – Okay, last question for you.
0:59:49 – Okay.
0:59:51 – In my research about you,
0:59:55 the word wonder comes up a lot.
0:59:55 – Yes.
0:59:59 – So can you explain what it means
1:00:01 and how you achieve it?
1:00:07 – I am unabashedly curious about many, many, many things.
1:00:13 And I suppose wonder is what I think of my childhood.
1:00:15 All of us, when we were little
1:00:18 and you go out in the garden,
1:00:22 start playing in the grass and the flowers
1:00:24 and like that sense of wonder
1:00:28 and you discover a lizard or a frog or, you know,
1:00:33 if we can hold on to that sense of discovery,
1:00:38 that is the sparkle of living.
1:00:43 Really, and my work, I’m letting nature animate the work.
1:00:49 So it’s always breathing and changing its shape
1:00:51 with the wind, with light.
1:00:56 I’m re-experiencing wonder at the beauty of this world
1:01:00 when I lie underneath the sculpture and look up.
1:01:01 – Thank you so much.
1:01:03 This was really fun, Guy.
1:01:06 I had no idea it’d be this much fun and you gave me socks.
1:01:08 (laughing)
1:01:11 Those are the softest, most comfortable socks.
1:01:12 What a perfect gift.
1:01:14 It’s like something very personal
1:01:16 that you really experience.
1:01:21 – I swear, some people ask to be on our podcast
1:01:25 so that they can get the merge for socks, but I digress.
1:01:30 Anyway, so listen, one more time, I’m gonna tell you,
1:01:32 it is March 6th.
1:01:37 This is launch day for our book, Think Remarkable.
1:01:41 Nine paths to transform your life and make a difference.
1:01:45 My thanks to Janet Echelman for being on our podcast.
1:01:48 Wow, her artwork is so immersive.
1:01:52 Be sure you check it out, Terminal 2, SFO,
1:01:55 and other places around the world.
1:01:58 My thanks to Beth Daly of The Conversation
1:02:02 for bringing this remarkable person to our attention.
1:02:05 And my thanks to the Remarkable People team,
1:02:09 Jeff C. and Shannon Hernandez Sound Design,
1:02:12 Madison Nysmer, Producer and Co-Author,
1:02:17 Tessa Nysmer, Researcher, Luis Magana, Alexis Nishimura,
1:02:21 and Phalan Yates, that’s the Remarkable People team.
1:02:24 And I lied one more time.
1:02:27 Think Remarkable, now available.
1:02:30 Check it out, it’ll help you make a difference.
1:02:34 Change the world, dent the universe, and be Remarkable.
1:02:36 Mahalo and Aloha.
1:02:44 This is Remarkable People.