Mustafa Suleyman: Harnessing AI to Transform Work, Business, and Innovation | E314

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0:01:11 Routine work is going to go away.
0:01:15 That’s going to free us up to be creative as entrepreneurs.
0:01:22 I’m expecting people to declare that it’s like them and their AI starting this new company.
0:01:26 You don’t have to learn the language of a computer to interact with it anymore.
0:01:34 We’re just about to embark on a completely new phase of the digital journey where computers
0:01:36 are now learning to speak our language.
0:01:40 It will increasingly be able to see what you see.
0:01:45 It now lowers the barrier to entry to get access to support and information.
0:01:46 And that is what is going to be the level up.
0:02:07 Yeah, fam, welcome back to the show.
0:02:12 And today we have an incredibly insightful conversation about AI.
0:02:15 AI is completely transforming the world.
0:02:19 You’re probably using AI every single day.
0:02:23 But today we’re going to learn even more about AI than we’ve ever heard before because
0:02:28 I’ve brought on one of the pioneers of AI, Mustafa Suleiman.
0:02:33 Mustafa Suleiman is the co-founder of DeepMind, the co-founder of Inflection AI.
0:02:38 He formerly worked at Google, and now he’s the CEO of Microsoft AI.
0:02:42 We’re going to learn about all the new developments with Microsoft’s co-pilot product.
0:02:46 And Mustafa is going to absolutely blow your mind.
0:02:50 We’re going to learn so much more about AI than we ever have on the show, and we talk
0:02:56 about the difference between AGI, artificial general intelligence, and the narrow AI that
0:02:57 a lot of us are familiar with.
0:03:03 We’re going to learn how AI is becoming more human-like than ever, and how AI is going
0:03:08 to truly become our co-pilot, helping us in work and life and even potentially one day
0:03:11 being our co-founders of our businesses.
0:03:15 Mustafa also is going to cover the containment challenge related to AI, and we’re going
0:03:21 to learn how we need to make sure we put up guardrails so that AI works for us and not
0:03:23 against us as a human society.
0:03:25 I’m so excited for this conversation.
0:03:27 I really think you guys are going to love it.
0:03:28 I think you guys are going to learn so much.
0:03:33 Even if you’re a pro at AI, I guarantee you Mustafa’s future predictions are going to
0:03:35 really open your mind.
0:03:39 So without further ado, here’s my conversation with Mustafa Suleiman.
0:03:43 Mustafa, welcome to Young and Profiting Podcast.
0:03:44 It is great to be here.
0:03:45 Thanks so much for having me.
0:03:47 I’m so excited for this interview.
0:03:53 My listeners love to learn about AI, so you have been a pioneer in AI.
0:03:55 You founded DeepMind, co-founded it.
0:03:57 You co-founded Inflection AI.
0:04:03 You’re now leading Microsoft AI, and I read your book, The Coming Wave, and one of the
0:04:06 things that you say is that AI has a lot of threats.
0:04:10 Just even you say a threat to global world order.
0:04:12 So my first question is to you.
0:04:15 Are you an optimist or a pessimist when it comes to AI?
0:04:20 I think that to be rational, you have to be both.
0:04:27 And if you just sit on one side or the other, you’re probably missing an important part
0:04:28 of the truth.
0:04:34 Because I think wisdom in the 21st century is being able to hold multiple confusing or
0:04:40 contradictory ideas in working memory at the same time and navigate a path through those
0:04:46 things which doesn’t leave you sort of characterizing those who disagree with you or somehow see
0:04:51 things slightly differently in a negative or unconstructive way.
0:05:00 And so it is true that this AI moment is going to deliver the greatest boost to productivity
0:05:03 in the history of our species in the next couple of decades.
0:05:05 That to me is unquestionable.
0:05:07 I don’t think that makes me an optimist.
0:05:11 I think that makes me a good predictor of the underlying trends.
0:05:18 At the same time, it is also going to create the most change in a disruptive, positive and
0:05:22 negative version of disruptive way we’ve ever seen.
0:05:26 And that is going to be incredibly destabilizing to the way that we currently understand the
0:05:27 world to be.
0:05:32 The way that we work, the way our politics operates, fundamentally what it even means
0:05:33 to be human.
0:05:36 So we’re about to go through a revolution.
0:05:43 And I think that in that world, I’m both optimistic and there are parts of me that do feel pessimistic.
0:05:47 So one of the things that you talk about related to powerful technologies is a containment
0:05:48 problem.
0:05:50 And you say it’s going to be one of the biggest challenges that we have.
0:05:55 So what is this containment problem and what are the challenges with containing technologies
0:05:56 like AI?
0:06:04 Yeah, so in the past, the goal has been to invent things and have science make our lives
0:06:06 calmer and happier and healthier.
0:06:11 And the race has been, how do we unlock these capabilities as fast as possible?
0:06:16 We want to create and produce and invent and solve challenges.
0:06:22 And that’s what we did with steam and oil and electricity and wind and food systems.
0:06:26 And we’ve seen this explosion of creativity, certainly in the last couple of centuries,
0:06:29 but that’s also been the history of our species.
0:06:36 So the goal there has been proliferate, spread it as far and wide as possible so that everyone
0:06:39 can enjoy the benefits immediately.
0:06:45 Now the thing that I’ve speculated about, which is the containment hypothesis, is that
0:06:51 if we do that this time with AI technologies in a completely unfiltered way, then that
0:06:58 has the potential to empower everybody to have a massive impact on everybody else in
0:07:00 real time.
0:07:04 So we aren’t just talking about spreading information and knowledge, that’s one part
0:07:10 of it, but increasingly your AI agents or your co-pilots will be able to actually do
0:07:13 things in the real world and in the digital world.
0:07:18 And the cost of building one of those things is going to be zero marginal cost, right?
0:07:21 So everyone’s going to have access to them in 20 years.
0:07:23 Maybe even much earlier.
0:07:27 And that’s going to completely change how we get things done, how we interact with
0:07:31 one another and potentially cause a huge amount of chaos.
0:07:36 And so a little bit of friction in the system could be our friend here.
0:07:40 That’s really all that I’m positing in the containment hypothesis.
0:07:45 Containing things so that we can collectively as a society think carefully about the potential
0:07:50 future consequences and the third order effects, that seems like a rational thing to do at
0:07:51 this point.
0:07:53 That makes a lot of sense.
0:07:59 So what are your thoughts around AI and a problem surrounding surveillance and bias
0:08:00 and things like that?
0:08:05 There are lots of potential ways that this technology gets misused.
0:08:09 And in some respects, this concentrates power.
0:08:15 It makes it easier for a small group of people to see what is happening in an entire ecosystem,
0:08:22 i.e. understand the faces and the images and the patterns of massive crowds of people
0:08:24 walking around in our societies.
0:08:26 And that certainly can be used for a lot of good, right?
0:08:32 I mean, we want to have a police force that is capable of instilling order and structure
0:08:33 and so on.
0:08:41 On the flip side, that also makes it easier for authoritarians, despots of any kind to
0:08:45 identify minority groups that they want to get rid of.
0:08:50 And it’ll just be much easier to find the needle in the haystack.
0:08:56 And again, that has amazing benefits because you can catch the bad guy, but it also is
0:08:57 potentially scary.
0:09:03 And so each one of these steps forward has that balancing act between the harms and the
0:09:04 benefits.
0:09:09 So let’s talk about the benefits, because I’ve been asking you a lot about the negative.
0:09:14 So how can AI help us solve things like world hunger and poverty and things like that?
0:09:20 Well, one way of thinking about it is that intelligence is the thing that has made us
0:09:23 productive and successful as a species.
0:09:29 It’s not just our muscle or our brawn, it’s actually our minds and our ability to make
0:09:35 predictions in complex environments to solve hard problems.
0:09:39 This is really the essence of what makes us special and creative.
0:09:42 We learn to use tools and we invent things.
0:09:48 So that intelligence, that technique of being able to predict what’s going to happen next,
0:09:55 that is actually something that we’re increasingly learning to automate and turn into an intelligence
0:09:59 system that can be used by everybody.
0:10:00 So what does that mean?
0:10:07 That means, okay, well, we now have this very thing that made us smart and productive and
0:10:09 created civilization.
0:10:15 That very concept, intelligence, is going to be cheap and abundant.
0:10:22 Just like energy, frankly, oil has turbocharged the creation of our species and we now have
0:10:28 seven billion people on the planet, largely as a result of the proliferation of oil.
0:10:36 The next wave is that everybody is going to get access to personalized real-time knowledge
0:10:44 and a companion, an aide, a coach, a guide, a co-pilot that is going to help you get things
0:10:45 done in practice.
0:10:49 It will help you create and invent and solve problems and get things done.
0:10:52 And so that is a massive force amplifier.
0:10:58 So for everybody who wants to solve world hunger or invent new energy systems or solve
0:11:04 the battery challenge so that we can really unlock the power of renewables, we now are
0:11:09 going to have a super intelligent aide at your fingertips that’s going to help you work
0:11:10 through those problems.
0:11:15 It’s so cool to think about and as you’re talking, I think about the iPhone, right?
0:11:17 We had that in our pocket.
0:11:22 It’s not personalized AI, it’s not an AI companion or anything like that, but it gives us access
0:11:24 to knowledge of the world.
0:11:29 It really has moved us forward as humans and now there’s like another wave coming and it’s
0:11:30 pretty exciting.
0:11:35 I feel like we’re already ready for it because we’ve had stuff like the iPhone and the Internet,
0:11:36 would you say?
0:11:37 Yeah, you’re totally right.
0:11:43 And in many ways, the iPhone’s impact was just as hard for people to predict.
0:11:50 If you said to people in 1985, what would the internet enable?
0:11:56 Very few people would have predicted mobile phones with real-time communication, video
0:12:04 streaming, a camera and a microphone in your pocket on the table, almost in every room.
0:12:06 That would have sounded terribly dystopian and scary.
0:12:11 And yet because of the friction, because it’s taken us a couple of decades to really figure
0:12:17 it out and get it working in practice, we’ve created boundaries around these things.
0:12:22 We’ve got security, we have encryption, there are privacy standards, there are real regulators
0:12:28 that make meaningful interventions and there’s public pressure and there’s a reaction and
0:12:34 it steadies the kind of arrival of these technologies in a really healthy and productive way.
0:12:35 And it’s kind of mind-blowing.
0:12:36 You’re right.
0:12:37 Who would have thought what the iPhone would have done?
0:12:38 Yeah.
0:12:40 Well, I’m super excited about everything.
0:12:42 I do want to touch on your background a bit.
0:12:46 So you co-founded DeepMind and something that we have in common is that we’re both really
0:12:48 passionate about human rights.
0:12:51 I was telling you offline, I’m Palestinian, 100%.
0:12:56 So top of mind for me, especially this year, you’re Syrian and I know that there’s just
0:13:00 global issues going on in the world that makes us top of mind.
0:13:04 And you were a human rights activist long ago, that’s how you started your career.
0:13:10 So talk to me about how your experience with human rights and activism really helped shape
0:13:16 your vision and some of your ethical decisions related to DeepMind.
0:13:18 Thanks for the question.
0:13:25 Human rights is core to what I believe to be the solution for a peaceful and stable society.
0:13:31 Your success and my success is probably largely a function of the privilege that we have to
0:13:38 live in a society not at war, have access to a great education system, be able to get
0:13:44 access to healthcare, and really just get the chance to be who we want to be instead
0:13:49 of growing up in societies that are maybe in the middle of a refugee camp, going through
0:13:56 war, in the middle of complete chaos, families that get moved on month after month or year
0:13:59 after year and essentially end up being refugees.
0:14:06 And I think that more than anything, we have to have so much more empathy and kindness for
0:14:08 people who have been through that struggle.
0:14:14 There tends to be a sort of demonizing of refugees or migrants as though they’re like
0:14:17 coming to steal something from our stable worlds.
0:14:20 But in fact, they’re actually fleeing insane hardship.
0:14:25 So we have to be way more compassionate and forgiving and kind to those kinds of people.
0:14:29 And remember that those people are just like us.
0:14:35 Our societies could fall apart in the US, in the UK, in Europe, just as their societies
0:14:39 happen to be falling apart at this moment in time.
0:14:42 And we have to extend a hand of friendship and love.
0:14:47 And the human rights framework taught me that because I grew up as a pretty strict Muslim
0:14:55 and I realized, sort of in my late teens and early twenties, that it was too narrow a kind
0:15:00 of worldview, prioritized being Muslim over being human.
0:15:03 And it didn’t make sense to me that there wasn’t gender equality.
0:15:09 It didn’t make sense to me that people who chose to get with a member of the same sex
0:15:14 suddenly got demonized and they were like evil somehow, that none of that made sense
0:15:15 to me.
0:15:19 Whereas a human rights framework respects everybody as equals.
0:15:22 And I just can’t see how that is in the right way to live.
0:15:28 So yeah, I became an atheist and secular and a big believer in these kind of rights frameworks
0:15:29 for everyone.
0:15:34 And then how did that shape the way that you thought of AI and the way that you decided
0:15:37 to develop your technology at DeepMind?
0:15:41 Well, think about AI as a force amplifier.
0:15:49 So the question is, which force is it amplifying and which frame is it placing on the amplification?
0:15:54 So what set of values, what ideas is it putting out into the world?
0:15:55 What are its boundaries?
0:15:56 What does it not do?
0:16:01 And so technology is fundamentally an ethical question.
0:16:08 It is clearly about how we reframe our culture and our ideas and our entertainment, our music,
0:16:10 our knowledge in the world.
0:16:14 So it was very obvious to me from the very beginning that we started DeepMind that we
0:16:20 were going to have a huge moral responsibility to think about what it’s going to be like
0:16:25 to bring these agents, these co-pilots into the world.
0:16:26 What would their values be?
0:16:28 What would they not do?
0:16:29 What are their limitations?
0:16:35 That always was a big motivator for me and was a big part of the kind of structure that
0:16:40 led to our acquisition by Google and subsequent efforts over my time at Google.
0:16:43 And since then, I’ve always been very focused on that question.
0:16:47 So when it comes to your technology goals at DeepMind, you have the goal of creating
0:16:50 AGI, artificial general intelligence.
0:16:53 We’ve never talked about that on the podcast.
0:16:56 Probably 90% of my listeners have no idea what AGI is.
0:16:57 Can you explain what that is?
0:16:59 Yeah, great question.
0:17:04 This is a term that gets bounded around quite a lot in nerd niche circles and it’s sort
0:17:12 of broken out a little bit now, but basically the idea of a general purpose intelligence
0:17:19 is that it’s capable of learning in any environment and over time it will end up becoming a super
0:17:20 intelligence.
0:17:24 It will get better by learning from itself and learning from any environment that you
0:17:33 put it in, so much so that it exceeds human performance at any knowledge or action task.
0:17:40 So it could play any game, control any physical infrastructure, learn about any academic discipline.
0:17:43 It’s going to be a really, really powerful system in the future, but I do think that’s
0:17:45 a long, long way away.
0:17:51 Before we get there, there are just going to be regular AI systems or AI companions that
0:17:55 can talk to you in the same language that you or I talk to one another.
0:18:00 I’m sure lots of people have played with various chatbots like chatGPT and co-pilot, and you
0:18:02 can see it’s getting pretty good.
0:18:06 It’s still a little awkward, but it’s pretty knowledgeable.
0:18:10 We’ve been reducing the hallucinations quite a lot.
0:18:14 Lately we’ve added the real-time access to information so it can check up on the news
0:18:20 and it’ll know the weather and it’ll have a temporal awareness, and those systems I
0:18:25 think are going to be around for a pretty long time before we have to worry about a
0:18:28 big AGI, but that is probably coming.
0:18:35 So when you say hallucinations, are you talking about incorrect information coming from AI?
0:18:36 Not quite.
0:18:42 I think of a hallucination as the model inventing something new.
0:18:46 And so sometimes you want it to be creative.
0:18:53 We’re actually looking for it to find the connection between a zebra and a lemon and
0:18:55 a New York taxi.
0:18:59 And if you ask it that question, it’s going to come up with some creative poetic connection
0:19:01 that links those three things.
0:19:06 But then sometimes you just want it to be super to the point and not wander off and
0:19:10 talk all kinds of creative poetic nonsense.
0:19:12 You just want it to give you the facts.
0:19:14 So that’s a spectrum.
0:19:18 And what we’re trying to do is figure out from a query, like given the thing that you’re
0:19:25 asking the model, should we put it into a more creative mode or a more precise and specific
0:19:27 mode that’s more likely to be accurate?
0:19:30 And that’s kind of the hallucination challenge.
0:19:32 How is AGI different from narrow AI?
0:19:34 What’s the main differences?
0:19:38 What narrow AI is the conversational companions that I was describing.
0:19:43 It’s limited, it doesn’t improve on its own.
0:19:49 So you sort of train it within some boundaries, and then it gets good at a specific number
0:19:55 of tasks, like it’s good at great conversation, maybe it can do document understanding, maybe
0:19:57 it can even generate a little bit of code.
0:20:01 But we know what its capabilities are to some extent.
0:20:06 That’s a narrow version of AI when we use it for a specific purpose.
0:20:12 A more general AI is going to be one where it has things like recursive self-improvement.
0:20:18 It could edit its own code in order to get better, or it could self-improve, or it would
0:20:20 have autonomy.
0:20:25 It could act independently of your direct command, essentially, or you give it a very general
0:20:30 command and it goes off and does all sort of sub-actions that are super complicated,
0:20:35 like maybe even invent a new product and create a website for it and then set up a drop ship
0:20:40 for it and then go and market it and take all the income and then do the accounts and so
0:20:41 on.
0:20:46 I mean, I think that’s plausible in, say, three to five years.
0:20:50 Before 2030, I think we’ll definitely have that and might well be much, much sooner.
0:20:51 Could well be like a lot sooner.
0:20:54 Oh my gosh, that’s so crazy to think about.
0:20:59 So how does that challenge the way that we think of us as humans and consciousness and
0:21:00 intelligence?
0:21:03 Is it going to change the way that we think of what’s human and what’s not?
0:21:04 Yeah, for sure.
0:21:08 I mean, we are going to have to contend with a new type of software.
0:21:13 Historically, software has been input in, input out.
0:21:18 You type something on Airbnb and it gives you a search result page.
0:21:23 You play a piece of music on Spotify and that comes out as intended.
0:21:27 And software so far has been about utilities, been functional.
0:21:32 The goal is for it to do the same thing over and over again in a very predictable way and
0:21:33 it’s been really useful.
0:21:38 We’ve created trillions of dollars of business value out of it and unbelievable social human
0:21:42 connection and knowledge and all the rest of it has been incredible actually.
0:21:51 But we’re just about to embark on a completely new phase of the digital journey where computers
0:21:55 are now learning to speak our language.
0:21:59 You don’t have to learn the language of a computer to interact with it anymore.
0:22:00 I mean, you can.
0:22:05 It’s still important to be a programmer, but it can actually understand your language.
0:22:11 It can understand the audio that you give it when you do a voice input, the intonation,
0:22:16 the inflection, the volume, the pace, the pauses.
0:22:19 It will increasingly be able to see what you see.
0:22:24 So not only will you take a picture and it will recognize what’s in the picture, it will
0:22:28 have complete screen understanding of everything that you’re doing in your browser or on your
0:22:30 desktop or on your phone.
0:22:31 Game by frame.
0:22:35 You’re browsing Instagram, it’s seeing everything that you’re seeing in real time talking to
0:22:40 you about the content of what you’re interacting with on Instagram, on TikTok, when you’re
0:22:42 reading the news, whatever you’re doing.
0:22:45 So that’s a profound shift.
0:22:47 That’s not a tool anymore, right?
0:22:52 That is really starting to capture something meaningful about what it means to be human
0:22:57 because it’s using the same language that we use to understand one another.
0:23:03 All those subtle cues that take place in social bonding of human relationships, suddenly it’s
0:23:05 going to be present in that dynamic.
0:23:08 And it’s a really big deal.
0:23:13 And I think even though we’ve had a couple of years of large language models being out
0:23:16 there and people get to play with it in the open source, I still don’t think people are
0:23:21 quite grasping how big a deal this shift is about to be.
0:23:25 Let’s hold that thought and take a quick break with our sponsors.
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0:27:56 You mentioned that you’re an atheist now and you’ve been central to developing AI and
0:27:59 AI is becoming more human-like.
0:28:04 Do you feel like that has altered your perspective about religion a bit?
0:28:08 You know, I think there are many amazing things about religion.
0:28:16 Religion was a way that people made up stories, this is in my opinion, in order to make sense
0:28:20 of a complex world that was confusing.
0:28:26 And then science came along and showed that actually we really can understand the world
0:28:33 through empirical observation and a falsifiable process of coming up with a hypothesis, running
0:28:39 some experiments, observing those results, subjecting them to peer review and then iterating
0:28:41 on the corpus of human knowledge.
0:28:46 And that’s how we have produced known facts that are very reliable because they keep getting
0:28:48 tested over and over again.
0:28:52 And when something fundamental happens, we change our entire paradigm.
0:29:02 So I think that it’s unclear to me what role religion plays any more in understanding the
0:29:07 physical world or even increasingly understanding the social world.
0:29:13 I think that if you look at the contributions in the last, say, century or even couple centuries
0:29:22 from great poets and philosophers and musicians, storytellers, creators, inventors, most of
0:29:26 them have nothing to do with religion and yet they’ve taught us most about ourselves
0:29:27 and our societies.
0:29:28 Right?
0:29:29 Yeah.
0:29:33 If you really want to understand who we are as a people, as humans, how our societies function,
0:29:37 you don’t turn to religion anymore, unfortunately.
0:29:41 I mean, some people will obviously disagree with that and full respect to them for their
0:29:44 opinion, but that’s where I land on it these days.
0:29:45 So interesting.
0:29:46 Okay.
0:29:49 So let’s move on to inflection AI.
0:29:54 You co-founded it in 2022 and your vision was to develop AI that people could communicate
0:29:56 with more easily.
0:29:59 Why did you feel like that needed to be developed?
0:30:02 We were at a time when I had just left Google.
0:30:07 I’d been working on Lambda, which was Google’s conversational search AI that we ended up never
0:30:08 launching.
0:30:11 It then got launched as Bard and then it became Gemini.
0:30:16 And I was frustrated because I was like, these technologies are ready for prime time.
0:30:18 They’re ready for feedback from the real world.
0:30:19 They’re not perfect.
0:30:23 They make a lot of mistakes, but we’re technology creators.
0:30:28 We’ve got to put things out there and see how it lands, iterate quickly, listen to what
0:30:29 people have to say.
0:30:33 And it was just sort of just frustrating that we just couldn’t get things done at Google
0:30:34 at that time.
0:30:36 And so I realized it has to be done.
0:30:37 It’s time to start a company.
0:30:42 Me and Reid Hoffman and my friend, Corensa Monion, started inflection.
0:30:45 And we created Pi, the personal intelligence.
0:30:52 It was a super friendly, warm, high emotional intelligence conversational companion.
0:31:00 At the time, it was, I think, the most fluent and the most high EQ conversational companion.
0:31:03 It had a bit of personality, it had a bit of humor.
0:31:09 And I think that it was an interesting time because we ended up getting decent number
0:31:10 of users.
0:31:14 We had like a million DAO, about six million monthly active users.
0:31:19 But the main thing I realized is that some people really love these experiences.
0:31:28 I mean, the average session length for Pi was 33 minutes, 4.5 times a week.
0:31:30 So that ranks it right up there.
0:31:33 I was under TikTok, but right up there.
0:31:35 And there’s not many experiences like that.
0:31:41 And so I think it gave me a real glimmer into what’s coming and how different the quality
0:31:45 of the interaction is going to be if you really get the aesthetic and the UI and the tone
0:31:47 of the personality, right?
0:31:51 I know that a lot of AI right now is used for work.
0:31:53 We’re using ChatGPT to help us with work.
0:31:58 What do you feel is the importance of emotional AI and having like emotional companionship
0:31:59 with AI?
0:32:04 So far, you’re right, ChatGPT is really a kind of work and productivity AI.
0:32:05 And it’s great.
0:32:08 It gives you access to knowledge and helps you rewrite things and so on.
0:32:13 But in a way, it sort of addresses a small part of our, or one important part of our
0:32:16 human needs, right?
0:32:21 The other part of our needs are to make sense of the world, to receive emotional support,
0:32:24 to have understanding of our social complexity.
0:32:27 We want to come at the end of the day and vent.
0:32:33 A big part of what I think people are doing on social media is posting stuff so that they
0:32:34 can be heard.
0:32:37 People want to feel like someone else is paying attention to them.
0:32:42 They want to feel like they’re understood and that they’re saying something that’s meaningful.
0:32:44 Or maybe they just want to work through something.
0:32:51 So in the new co-pilot that we’ve launched just a few weeks ago at Microsoft AI, we focused
0:32:52 both on the IQ.
0:32:58 So it’s exceptionally accurate, minimizes those hallucinations we were talking about,
0:33:02 has access to real-time information, really fast and fluent.
0:33:07 But we’ve also focused on the EQ because we want it to be a kind companion.
0:33:09 We want it to be your hype man.
0:33:10 We want it to back you up, right?
0:33:16 We want it to be in your corner, on your team, looking out for you there when you need it.
0:33:20 I think people underrate how important that kind of social privilege is.
0:33:27 That is one of the things that gives middle-class kids a huge leg up, to always have a parent
0:33:33 there, to always have a stable family with a sibling or even a best friend available
0:33:35 to you whenever you need it.
0:33:39 And I think that we’re going to just touch on a little bit of those experiences now and
0:33:41 make that available via co-pilot.
0:33:46 Yeah, it sounds so amazing, the future that AI can bring us.
0:33:50 And to your point, people who are a little bit underprivileged, like maybe they have
0:33:55 an immigrant parent or a parent who’s not very educated, now suddenly they have just
0:34:01 as much potential as everybody else because they have the same AI companion.
0:34:04 How do you imagine us working with machines in the future?
0:34:07 How do you imagine personal AI to be like in the future?
0:34:13 Yeah, I think you’re going to say, hey co-pilot or whatever you call your personal AI, I’m
0:34:14 stuck.
0:34:15 What’s the answer to this?
0:34:17 How should I navigate that?
0:34:18 I need to go buy this thing.
0:34:20 Can you take care of it for me?
0:34:22 Will I be available in a week to do this thing?
0:34:29 You’re going to basically use it as a way to organize your life and spend less time being
0:34:37 distracted by administration and more time pursuing your curiosities, especially in the
0:34:38 voice mode.
0:34:44 I think you very quickly just forget that this is actually a piece of technology and
0:34:52 it feels like you’re just having a great conversation with a teacher that is patient, non-judgmental,
0:34:58 doesn’t put you down, has infinite time available to you and will wander off on the path that
0:35:02 you choose to take through some complicated question.
0:35:07 It doesn’t matter how many times you go back and say, can you explain that again?
0:35:09 I didn’t quite understand that.
0:35:11 What do you mean?
0:35:12 No problem.
0:35:17 You just get to keep digging in a completely personalized way.
0:35:23 That is going to be the greatest leveling up we have ever seen because it’s expensive
0:35:24 socially.
0:35:28 It costs for me to turn around to one of my friends who knows a lot about something and
0:35:32 pick up the phone and say, “Hey, man, can you walk me through this thing?”
0:35:34 Obviously, my friends will do it, but there’s a barrier there.
0:35:35 It’s not instant.
0:35:40 I’m really asking for something or it’s a cost for me to unload on my friend at the
0:35:42 end of the day when I’m frustrated and irritated.
0:35:47 I want to show up to my best friend in the best possible way and have fun and be bright
0:35:48 and energetic.
0:35:51 I’m still going to have those emotional moments with them, it’s not that they’re not going
0:35:52 to be there.
0:35:59 It’s just that it now lowers the barrier to entry to get access to support and knowledge
0:36:03 and information, and that is what is going to be the level up.
0:36:08 With technology in the past, we’ve seen it actually make us become more lonely.
0:36:12 Everybody says there’s this loneliness epidemic, social media makes us more lonely.
0:36:18 Do you feel like this new wave of AI and personalized AI in this manner is actually going to help
0:36:24 us become less lonely and replace human connection, so to speak?
0:36:29 Every new wave of technology leaves us with a cultural shift.
0:36:36 It’s not just static, it’s going to have some impact, and it may be the case that social
0:36:41 media has made us feel more lonely and isolated, and we have to unpack that.
0:36:43 Why is that?
0:36:48 People report feeling lonely, but another way of thinking about it that I think is that
0:36:54 people feel judged by social media, they feel excluded, they feel not good enough.
0:36:55 Why is that?
0:37:02 Because I think Instagram really dominated in highlighting a certain visual aesthetic.
0:37:04 I need to be big and have muscles, right?
0:37:09 I need to get my fashion on point, oh my God, look at how good a cook she is, she’s making
0:37:14 incredible food, look at how she’s taking care and he’s taking care of their kids.
0:37:19 I’m just looking at all these perfect caricatures and it’s making me feel insecure.
0:37:26 I think that’s what’s at the heart of it, and what sits beneath that is a UI, a UI that
0:37:30 rewards a certain type of attention.
0:37:37 I think you can create new UIs, you can create new reward mechanisms, new incentivizations
0:37:42 to dampen that spirit and create more breadth, actually.
0:37:46 I think, in a way, TikTok is an evolution of that because you don’t get as much of
0:37:47 that on TikTok.
0:37:53 A lot of the comments even are much more healthy, they’re full of jokes and support and friendly
0:37:56 banter whereas YouTube was just spiteful.
0:38:02 I remember the YouTube comments back in the day seemed really rough and obviously X, I
0:38:06 don’t know who uses X anymore, but that’s turned into a cesspit.
0:38:09 I just think you have to be conscious and deliberate.
0:38:14 I’m sure that when we put out on new AI experiences, there are going to be some parts of society
0:38:21 that get ruffled by it and my job and my life’s work is to be super attentive to those consequences
0:38:25 and respond as fast as possible to trim the edges and reshape it and cast it.
0:38:31 It’s like a sculpture and you have to just be paying full attention and taking responsibility
0:38:33 for the real-time consequences of it.
0:38:39 Now you are CEO of Microsoft AI and you guys launched Co-Pilot about a year ago.
0:38:43 Can you walk us through how Co-Pilot transformed work for Microsoft users over the past year
0:38:46 and then we’ll get into what’s new?
0:38:51 We launched Co-Pilot about a year ago very much as an experiment to see how people like
0:38:55 to interact with conversational LLMs.
0:39:00 In the work setting, it’s pretty incredible to see how Co-Pilot is now embedded in Microsoft
0:39:02 365.
0:39:08 On Windows, on Word, on Excel, there’s so many tools and features that enable you to
0:39:13 just ask your Co-Pilot whilst you’re in the context of your document to summarize something
0:39:19 or create a table or to create a schedule or to compare two complex ideas.
0:39:24 I think it’s had a massive impact there actually and it doesn’t get talked about so much because
0:39:28 it’s been so embedded and now it’s become second nature.
0:39:31 It’s part of people’s everyday workflow.
0:39:35 I’ve used Co-Pilot before and to your point, it just feels so natural.
0:39:39 I feel like we’re all just so ready to have an AI companion.
0:39:42 Talk to us about the future of what Co-Pilot is going to bring.
0:39:49 The next way for Co-Pilots is these flavor of much more personable, much more fluent,
0:39:50 much more natural interactions.
0:39:55 It’s fast, it’s sleek, it’s very elegant in the UI.
0:39:58 We’ve done a lot of work to pair back the complexity.
0:40:03 I think that people want calming, cleaner interfaces.
0:40:09 I feel like when I look at my computer sometimes, I see colors of every type, shapes, different
0:40:14 kinds of information, architectures and it’s just like there’s blur and I just need serenity
0:40:16 and simplicity.
0:40:21 We’re really designing Co-Pilot to go out and fetch the perfect nuggets of information
0:40:26 for you and bring them into your clean feed and really create a UI where you can focus
0:40:28 on conversation.
0:40:35 So the answers are designed to be pithy, short, humorous, the little bit of spice, a bit of
0:40:39 energy and it’s fun to chat to as well as learn from at the same time.
0:40:43 So that kind of interactive back and forth was a big part of the motivation for how we
0:40:44 designed it.
0:40:48 Are you bringing some of the emotional piece that we were talking about before into this?
0:40:53 Yeah, it’s really designed to have a bit more of that connection.
0:40:57 It’ll ask you questions or if you’re in the voice mode, for example.
0:40:59 It will actively listen.
0:41:06 So it will go uh-huh or no way or right whilst you’re speaking to let you know that it’s
0:41:10 listening, it’s paying attention, it’s keeping the conversation moving.
0:41:15 And so just little subtle touches like that as well as the intonation in the voice and
0:41:17 the energy that it brings.
0:41:21 Those kinds of things are really quite different to what we’ve seen before.
0:41:24 Are there any other advancements that you’re working on at Microsoft related to AI?
0:41:27 Yeah, there’s a lot coming.
0:41:31 You’re going to see a different kind of hardware platform I think over time.
0:41:35 You’re going to see a lot of different features in terms of personalization.
0:41:40 So I think increasingly people are going to want to give their co-pilots their own name.
0:41:44 Who knows, one day in the future, you know, might have an avatar or visual representation.
0:41:47 So we’re thinking about a lot of different angles.
0:41:53 How far off do you think we are from co-pilot being more than a tool and more like a co-worker?
0:42:00 I think that it’s naturally going to evolve to be more of a co-worker because you want
0:42:04 it to be able to fill in your gaps, right?
0:42:10 You know, you think you have certain strengths and weaknesses, some of us are more analytical,
0:42:13 some of us are more creative, some of us are more structured.
0:42:19 You can think of each one of us as this unique key that fits like a perfect lock with our
0:42:22 strengths and weaknesses.
0:42:29 And I think that each co-pilot is going to adapt to the grooves of your unique constellation
0:42:30 of skills.
0:42:36 And so if it fits to you, it kind of means like you and your co-pilot are going to be
0:42:37 like a pair.
0:42:38 You’re going to be like a powerhouse.
0:42:43 I mean, who knows, one day you might even go and do job interviews together because it’s
0:42:49 going to be like, you’re hiring me and my co-pilot, we’re a pair, you know, it’s could
0:42:51 well be your co-founder.
0:42:58 I’m expecting anytime soon people to declare that it’s them and their AI starting this
0:42:59 new company.
0:43:02 Oh my God, that’s mind-blowing to think.
0:43:04 I can’t even imagine a world like that.
0:43:10 Do you have any concern when GPS came out, for example, around the time when I was younger
0:43:18 and driving and I can’t from my life get anywhere without GPS now, I’m so dependent
0:43:19 on it.
0:43:22 I don’t know how to do things that I did when I first started driving and didn’t really
0:43:26 have GPS embedded in my car.
0:43:30 And I can’t memorize phone numbers anymore the way that I used to.
0:43:37 And I just am worried that AI is going to make us maybe more lazy, maybe less creative.
0:43:41 Are you worried that it’s going to impact human intelligence in a negative way?
0:43:45 People said that about the calculator, right, that it was going to lead to kids cheating
0:43:47 in tests and so on and so forth.
0:43:48 And it didn’t.
0:43:53 It just made us smarter, enabled us as humans to do more complex computations and I don’t
0:43:56 see any evidence that it’s making us dumber in any way.
0:44:04 I mean, we have overwhelming access to information and I think that on one level that has actually
0:44:07 made us all way more tolerant and respectful and kind.
0:44:13 People tend to fixate on the polarization politically in our society.
0:44:20 But actually, think about it from the other perspective, 20 years ago, take your pick,
0:44:26 abortions, religion, sexuality, gender, trans, I mean, take your pick.
0:44:30 All of those were decades and decades behind where they are now.
0:44:36 It is amazing how bright and beautiful and colorful our world is now and how respectful
0:44:38 and kind we are on the whole.
0:44:44 Now there are still pockets of fear and hatred and there’s plenty of that.
0:44:48 But there’s also massive, massive progress and I think that progress is a function of
0:44:54 us having access to knowledge about one another, living together, growing together, hearing
0:44:55 from one another.
0:44:57 And I think that’s going to continue.
0:45:02 So when it comes to tools like co-pilot, right, a lot of my listeners are entrepreneurs.
0:45:06 They’re rolling this out to their teams, AI in general.
0:45:11 A lot of people are worried about the accuracy and the bias related to AI.
0:45:16 How can we trust AI more or do you feel like there’s still more work to do in terms of
0:45:17 us fully trusting AI?
0:45:20 Yeah, there’s still more work to do.
0:45:23 I’m painting a rosy picture of the future.
0:45:27 It’s going to be a while for these things to actually work perfectly.
0:45:29 So you’ve always got to double check it.
0:45:32 Do not rely on these things just yet.
0:45:37 At the same time, you would be a fool not to use them because it really is a complete
0:45:41 revolution in access to information and support and so on.
0:45:46 So the good news is that if you’re starting a new business or if you’re trying to figure
0:45:52 out your next move in life in general, everything is available open source.
0:45:55 You can try any model on any API.
0:46:00 You can get access to the source code quite often and really get a really good understanding
0:46:02 of the cutting edge.
0:46:08 You can’t get that absolute cutting edge in open source, but you can get very, very close.
0:46:12 And I think that will give anybody a good instinct for how these things can be useful
0:46:16 to your business or to your startup or to your next step in life.
0:46:20 We’ll be right back after a quick break from our sponsors.
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0:51:13 So let’s move on to some future predictions.
0:51:19 I know that Microsoft is working on some AI projects related to sustainability.
0:51:21 Can you talk to us about what you guys are working on?
0:51:22 Yeah, sure.
0:51:27 So we’re actually one of the largest buyers of renewable energy on the planet.
0:51:36 And that’s a long time commitment by the company to be net zero by 2026 and carbon negative.
0:51:41 So taking carbon out of the supply chain by 2030.
0:51:46 So in order to do that, we’ve also been massively investing in new technologies and new science.
0:51:53 For example, massive investments in battery storage and nuclear fusion projects in carbon
0:51:54 sequestration.
0:51:56 So taking carbon out of the atmosphere.
0:52:00 Across the board, we’ve been making this a priority for quite a long time.
0:52:04 Thank goodness because climate change is so important.
0:52:07 So let’s go back to this containment problem that we talked about right in the beginning
0:52:09 of the podcast.
0:52:13 Can you compare and contrast what the world would look like 10, 20 years from now if AI
0:52:19 is contained and we use it in a really positive way versus AI not being contained in it getting
0:52:20 out of control?
0:52:27 You know, I think that one way of thinking about it is that cars have been contained.
0:52:35 So cars have been around for 80 years and we have layers and layers and layers of regulations,
0:52:45 seat belts, emissions, windscreen tensile strength, street lighting, disposal of the materials
0:52:49 after a car’s life is over, driver training.
0:52:57 Now there’s an entire ecosystem of containment built up to prevent a 13 year old from driving
0:53:00 through a field and crashing into a cow or whatever.
0:53:06 You know, it’s a whole infrastructure for containment that takes time to evolve and
0:53:12 we’ve actually done it pretty well and cars are now incredibly safe, just like aeroplanes,
0:53:13 just like drones.
0:53:17 Drones haven’t just suddenly exploded into our world.
0:53:18 They’ve had containment.
0:53:19 There are rules.
0:53:22 You can’t just go fly a drone in Times Square.
0:53:25 You have to get a permit, you need to get a drone license.
0:53:30 There are certain places that you can’t fly them at all like near airports.
0:53:33 So this isn’t actually that complicated.
0:53:38 It’s quite likely that we will succeed in putting the boundaries around these things
0:53:41 so that they’re a net benefit to everybody.
0:53:43 That actually makes me feel a lot better.
0:53:48 It really does because, you know, AI is a scary thing to think about.
0:53:52 All these changes happening, but it’s so good to hear from you, somebody who’s been so central
0:53:55 to it all, to really believe, okay, I think it’s going to be okay.
0:53:59 I think we’re going to be able to contain this and things will overall be positive.
0:54:06 But how about the fact that power is sort of decentralized now with AI, right?
0:54:12 A lot of people can just use it and run with it, and there’s some bad apples out there.
0:54:14 So what do you have to say about that?
0:54:15 That’s a tough question.
0:54:19 There are definitely bad apples, and there are definitely people who will misuse it.
0:54:24 That’s kind of the conundrum, I think, is that we have a two-prong challenge.
0:54:30 One is figuring out how nation-states and democracies get into a place where they can
0:54:34 regulate the powerful, big companies like me.
0:54:39 They can hold us accountable, and they can make the public feel like they’re competent
0:54:42 and they’re on the case, regulating centralized power.
0:54:46 And then the second is, how do we cope with the fact that everybody’s going to have access
0:54:48 to this in seconds?
0:54:49 And we want them to.
0:54:51 It’s just not like we don’t want people to have access.
0:54:54 We want people to have access in open source.
0:54:59 And I think the important thing to remember is that so far we haven’t seen any catastrophic
0:55:03 harms arising from open source or in the large-scale models, right?
0:55:06 So all of this is speculation.
0:55:08 Everyone could be totally wrong.
0:55:11 It could be that we’re actually not going to progress as fast as we thought.
0:55:19 It could be that we come up with really reliable ways of instilling safety into this code.
0:55:20 Certainly could be the case.
0:55:26 And there’s no reason for us to start slowing down open source right now, none at all.
0:55:29 It needs to continue because people get enormous benefit out of it.
0:55:33 At the same time, if something were to go wrong, it’s just software.
0:55:39 So someone can copy it and repost it and post it again, and it’s going to spread superfast.
0:55:43 So I just think it’s a new type of challenge that we haven’t yet faced yet.
0:55:46 I think people often forget the internet is quite regulated.
0:55:51 It’s just not like this is the internet is this kind of free-for-all, chaotic, open domain,
0:55:52 right?
0:55:55 There’s a whole bunch of things that you can’t find on the web, or you have to really work
0:55:59 hard to get on the dark web and find pretty ugly stuff.
0:56:00 And it’s illegal.
0:56:03 And if you get caught doing it, you’re in deep trouble and stuff like that.
0:56:07 So it’s not like it’s just going to be a total free-for-all.
0:56:11 And in general, I think most people do want to do the right thing.
0:56:15 So this isn’t about worrying about your average user.
0:56:20 This is about a tiny number of really bad apples, as you say.
0:56:21 Yeah.
0:56:23 To me, it sounds like you’re saying we’re well-prepared.
0:56:28 We’ve seen these new technologies before, humans have been dealing with these new technologies
0:56:30 over the last 200 years or so.
0:56:35 And it sounds like you’re saying you feel like we’re well-prepared for the AI revolution.
0:56:41 I think that we are more prepared than the scare mongerers make us think.
0:56:45 That does not mean everything is going to be dandy.
0:56:47 There’s a lot of work to do.
0:56:50 And each new technology is new to us by definition.
0:56:53 It’s something we haven’t seen before.
0:56:58 When I was writing my book, I read about this amazing story of the first passenger railway
0:57:02 train that took a trip in Liverpool.
0:57:04 And this is 1830.
0:57:10 So the first time anybody has ever seen a moving carriage, essentially.
0:57:13 It was a single carriage on rails.
0:57:18 And the Prime Minister came down to celebrate, tons of people there, the mayor, and there
0:57:20 was like the local MP.
0:57:26 They were so excited by what was coming that they actually stood on the tracks and they
0:57:32 didn’t get out of the way when the train came and it killed a bunch of people, including
0:57:33 the local MP.
0:57:34 Oh my God.
0:57:40 So it was that alien and that strange, just a regular moving carriage that they couldn’t
0:57:43 figure out that they needed to get out of the way.
0:57:51 So that obviously, I’m sure never happened again, but it gives you an indication sometimes
0:57:56 of how surprising and strange it can be and how we can be unprepared.
0:57:59 And now, obviously, we’re not living in the 1830s.
0:58:03 We have the benefit of hundreds of millions of inventions since then.
0:58:08 And so we understand a lot more about the process of inventing, creating technology,
0:58:10 seeing it proliferate.
0:58:14 We understand a lot more even about digital technologies in the last couple of decades.
0:58:17 We see the consequences in social media.
0:58:22 We see how unencrypted phones cause security chaos.
0:58:27 We see how hackers try all sorts of different tricks of the trade to undermine our security
0:58:29 and privacy and so on.
0:58:35 So there’s an accumulation of knowledge that, on the one hand, should make us feel optimistic
0:58:36 that we are prepared.
0:58:41 On the other hand, we also know that these are unprecedented times and these are very
0:58:43 new and fundamentally different experiences.
0:58:47 And so I don’t think we shouldn’t be complacent.
0:58:49 This is going to be different.
0:58:51 How do you envision the future of work?
0:58:55 Do you feel like people will have the traditional sort of nine to five job that they have right
0:58:56 now?
0:59:00 Or do you feel like humans are going to be able to be more creative and enjoy their
0:59:01 life more?
0:59:02 Like how do you imagine that?
0:59:05 Yeah, I think that work is going to change.
0:59:06 I mean, it’s already changing.
0:59:07 We’re already remote.
0:59:09 We’re on our devices.
0:59:15 I do honestly half of my work on my phone because I travel a lot, always making phone
0:59:19 calls, sending text messages and using messaging and teams and so on.
0:59:22 So it is going to be very, very different.
0:59:29 And I think in an AI world, you’re going to have your companion with you, remembering
0:59:34 your tasks, helping you get things done on time, helping you stay organized and on top
0:59:35 of all the chaos.
0:59:41 I think that should make you feel lighter and more prepared mentally, more ready to
0:59:43 be creative.
0:59:48 And that’s what’s going to be required of us because routine work is going to go away.
0:59:54 A lot of the drudgery of elementary digital life is going to get a lot smoother and a
0:59:55 lot easier.
1:00:00 And so that’s going to free us up to be creative as entrepreneurs.
1:00:05 I think that’s some amazing things are going to be invented as a result of that extra time
1:00:06 that we’re going to have.
1:00:10 So you don’t feel anywhere humans are not going to have purpose anymore?
1:00:18 I think that work was invented because we had limited resources and we had to organize
1:00:23 ourselves in efficient ways to reduce suffering.
1:00:29 So what happens when we don’t have as much of that burden and actually there is going
1:00:35 to be resource available for millions of people and the greatest challenge we have is figuring
1:00:40 out how to distribute it and how to make sure that everybody gets access.
1:00:47 So I don’t think there is something inherent about the human connection and need for purpose
1:00:48 with work.
1:00:53 I think many people find their purpose and passion in a gazillion other things that we
1:00:55 all do, right?
1:01:00 Many people also find it in work too and that is going to be a big shift because if you
1:01:05 find passion in that kind of drudgery-ness work that I described, then they’re going
1:01:08 to be there in 20 years time.
1:01:13 So you’re going to have to think hard about that, but I think it’s pretty exciting.
1:01:16 People are going to be able to find many, many new purposes and many, many new things to
1:01:17 do with their lives.
1:01:20 Do you feel like we’re going to live longer because of AI?
1:01:22 Yeah, I think so.
1:01:27 I don’t know how long I’m not one of these “live forever” type people.
1:01:32 We’re already living longer because we have a much better awareness of health conditions.
1:01:36 I’m just thinking about how many people died because everyone thought smoking was okay,
1:01:37 right?
1:01:41 And how many lives were cut short and now so few people smoke, right?
1:01:47 And people are aware about the consequences of alcohol or unhealthy food or sitting on
1:01:53 the couch, just that alone, again, access to information, scientific evidence proving
1:01:57 that these things actually do lead to longevity, that’s all table stakes now.
1:02:02 And so for sure, there’s this kind of bump that we’re going to get in 60 years time when
1:02:08 a bunch of people who’ve grown up since their teens thinking that living a healthy life is
1:02:15 the normal thing to do instead of how I grew up, which is like cigarettes and alcohol.
1:02:19 So obviously there’s still room for all that kind of stuff, but is a different thing now.
1:02:24 And then on top of that, we’re going to have AI tools that help us to really make sense
1:02:27 of the literature for us in a personalized way.
1:02:32 We can really see what kind of nutrition we might need, given our gut biome.
1:02:36 That whole sort of movement is only just starting to kind of have effect.
1:02:39 And I think it’s going to be pretty impactful.
1:02:42 So let’s move on to entrepreneurship.
1:02:47 For all the entrepreneurs out there, what should they be doing now to take advantage
1:02:48 of AI?
1:02:51 All the tools are already at our fingertips.
1:02:57 I mean, in some ways, that’s like an overwhelming thing, you know, because it’s like, it’s just
1:02:58 there.
1:02:59 There’s like nothing holding you back.
1:03:03 I mean, there’s no secret source.
1:03:08 My team has some little bits and pieces here and there that might not be available, but
1:03:15 most of it, the knowledge, the knowhow, the cloud services, the open source stuff, the
1:03:18 YouTube videos, the, it’s all there.
1:03:22 And so it is an electric time.
1:03:25 Someone came up to me at a book signing that I did the other day.
1:03:30 She’s 15 years old and she was showing me this unbelievable project that she had been
1:03:36 working on made a bunch of money strung together from all available public tools with two of
1:03:40 her pals thinking about dropping out of school, it blew my mind.
1:03:46 And you know, I think that is just there if you’re hungry.
1:03:49 And you know, if you’re ready to take risks, this is the thing I say to people is take
1:03:50 risk when you’re young.
1:03:51 Take risk.
1:03:53 I took a lot of risks.
1:04:01 Drop out, change your degree, switch your subject, give up work, maximize your side hustle, partner
1:04:04 with a friend that you’re not sure about partnering with.
1:04:06 Go ask a question.
1:04:07 People want to help.
1:04:10 Just ping them an email, doorstep them.
1:04:12 People don’t doorstep each other anymore.
1:04:14 You know, back in the day, people would like wait outside.
1:04:16 I don’t even know what that means.
1:04:20 It means like after a show or, you know, outside of theater.
1:04:22 I like wait for somebody, you know.
1:04:23 Yeah.
1:04:24 That used to be a big thing.
1:04:26 That used to be how people did networking, right?
1:04:29 They would like go to an event because they knew that someone was going to be there and
1:04:33 then try to like build the connection.
1:04:34 People connections huge.
1:04:40 Find that moment to shake someone’s hand, show a quick demo, drop them a note.
1:04:41 It’s hustle.
1:04:42 It’s just hustle culture.
1:04:46 That’s what you’ve got to be on if you really want to do it and everyone’s in the game.
1:04:49 So what an amazing time to be creative.
1:04:50 Take that risk.
1:04:54 It’s so exciting when I hear the passion in your voice and I feel like anybody listening
1:04:58 right now probably feels like so pumped to just explore, see what’s out there related
1:05:01 to their industry and just get their hands dirty.
1:05:02 Yeah.
1:05:03 Because I did that as well, right?
1:05:05 I mean, I dropped out of my degree.
1:05:07 I switched out my careers a bunch of times.
1:05:12 I wasn’t afraid to ask people for help and it was really the reason that I’ve been successful
1:05:17 is because a few people gave me unbelievable opportunities at the right moment.
1:05:20 When I was really young, like help me get into a great school.
1:05:24 I ended up going to Oxford, like help me get a great early job.
1:05:28 Help me when I started my telephone counseling service when I was 19.
1:05:33 It’s really other people that end up lifting you up and you have to form those relationships,
1:05:38 give so much thanks and praise to those who do do that and then keep giving it to other
1:05:40 people too.
1:05:42 I reply to a lot of my LinkedIn’s.
1:05:46 I won’t say I reply to all of them because that would be a lie, but I do reply to a lot.
1:05:51 I certainly reply to all my emails and people would cold email me all the time and I might
1:05:55 not be able to help them, but I’ll reply and I’ll point them in the right direction or something
1:05:57 because that’s really what matters.
1:06:00 And when you see someone who’s taken that extra step to try and hustle it, like I really
1:06:03 rate that and I think it’s the way forward.
1:06:06 And my listeners know that I interview such powerful people.
1:06:12 I find that the more powerful the person, the more helpful they are and the more that
1:06:17 they actually care about giving back and giving feedback and being personal because what ends
1:06:22 up happening is that they probably have more time because they’re already successful and
1:06:25 made it and it means a lot to them to actually give back.
1:06:26 Yeah.
1:06:27 And I just got super lucky as well.
1:06:32 I think I’ve obviously done some things right, but luck is a huge part of it and you kind
1:06:37 of make your own luck by asking people for favors and help and advice and feedback.
1:06:42 I’ve just learned everything along the way by assuming that I know nothing, but that’s
1:06:46 the key thing is that I’m not embarrassed to look, even to this day in front of my team,
1:06:51 I’ll often ask the stupid question and quite often I end up looking like an idiot.
1:06:53 Probably one out of five times, maybe even one out of four.
1:06:58 I will say something and I’m like, “Oh, that was a clanger, oops.”
1:07:02 But then a bunch of other times, it will be like, “Oh, that was the thing that everyone
1:07:03 was thinking.”
1:07:10 And then my team seeing me trip and just looked like a doofus, that encourages them to then
1:07:12 go and ask the stupid question.
1:07:14 And then we’re all just less judgmental.
1:07:18 There’s none of this professional nonsense like you have to be all formal and straight.
1:07:23 You just break down those barriers, be human to one another, collaborate deeply, set aside
1:07:24 shame.
1:07:25 Do you know what I mean?
1:07:28 Like shame is one of the most useless emotions.
1:07:30 I’m so sorry that we evolved to carry this thing.
1:07:33 Frankly, I think it comes from religion, but that’s another story.
1:07:36 But I just think why are we carrying around this baggage of shame?
1:07:42 So need to be ashamed, you know, just recognize when you tripped up, make a correction, take
1:07:43 the next step.
1:07:45 You’re talking about leading your team.
1:07:49 We’ve had so many teams at DeepMind, Google, now Microsoft.
1:07:53 What are some of your key leadership principles that you live by and maybe talk about what
1:07:58 is one of the biggest challenges that you’ve had so far as a leader?
1:08:02 My style tends to be very open and collaborative.
1:08:07 I like to hear lots and lots of disagreeing voices.
1:08:12 Strong opinions are healthy, provided they’re grounded in wisdom and humility.
1:08:15 They need to be evidenced, right?
1:08:22 They need to be referenced, they need to reference some historical example or some data or some
1:08:28 empirical case, or they need to be explicitly named as a guesstimate.
1:08:29 I don’t mind that either.
1:08:35 One thing I often say to people is deliver your message with metadata.
1:08:36 Such a basic thing.
1:08:41 Say to the person, I’m really sure about this because I’ve looked up this fact.
1:08:48 I’m really not sure about this, or I’m looking for feedback on this one, or this is just
1:08:50 an FYI.
1:08:56 Letting each other know what the status of our exchange is, often I see conflicts arise
1:09:02 from a mis-expectation about what two people are expecting in an exchange.
1:09:03 That’s one thing.
1:09:05 Clear communication is evidence-based.
1:09:10 There’s a lot of humility, very collaborative and open, but I’m also very decisive.
1:09:17 But mentally, my job is to sift through all the complexity and make a call because there’s
1:09:22 really nothing worse than not having clarity for the team.
1:09:27 Even if we end up going in the wrong direction, that’s totally fine because we’ll calibrate.
1:09:32 We have a process for feedback and iteration and retrospective, and that will really, really
1:09:33 help.
1:09:41 What I’ve struggled with is, in larger organizations, naturally, because there’s tens or hundreds
1:09:45 of thousands of people, there’s different people with different motivations.
1:09:50 In a startup, you know that everyone is due or die, and maybe there’s one or two that
1:09:54 aren’t, and they get rotated out, but they’re there for it.
1:09:57 In a bigger organization, it’s not always true.
1:10:01 Some people are just happy in the rhythm that they’re in.
1:10:08 One of my learnings is learn to energize those people and find a practical flow to get them
1:10:09 in, get them being useful.
1:10:14 I want to be respectful of your time because we’re running out of time here.
1:10:18 One of my last questions to you is, what is the legacy that you hope to leave behind related
1:10:20 to AI and the world in general?
1:10:23 Man, I don’t think about legacy.
1:10:26 I think about the future, but you’re totally right.
1:10:34 I hope that I’m able to live my values authentically and let people know what I’m trying to do,
1:10:41 give people an opportunity to disagree with it, but fundamentally move at pace to experiment
1:10:46 with this new approach of AI companions and emotionally intelligent AIs.
1:10:52 I really want to try and help steward this new moment with kindness and compassion, that’s
1:10:53 what means a lot to me.
1:10:55 Well, I really enjoyed this conversation.
1:10:58 I’ve had probably 10 conversations about AI.
1:10:59 This is by far my favorite one.
1:11:04 I feel like you made me feel not scared about AI and I feel like I know so much more about
1:11:05 it.
1:11:09 So the last two questions that I ask all my guests, you don’t have to make it based on
1:11:12 AI, it could just come from your heart.
1:11:16 What is one actionable thing our young and profitors can do today to become more profitable
1:11:17 tomorrow?
1:11:23 I think the most important thing has got to be to be critical of yourself.
1:11:26 Retrospectives are key.
1:11:31 Ask for feedback from your friends, your family, and especially ask for feedback from people
1:11:35 who you think are going to give you something a little bit barbed.
1:11:41 You don’t have to take it, but just at least be aware of the landscape and get in the habit
1:11:43 of not having a thin skin.
1:11:47 That will make you tougher and stronger for everything that you’ve got to encounter next.
1:11:49 I think I needed to hear that.
1:11:53 And what would you say is your secret to profiting in life?
1:11:55 Learning and humility.
1:11:59 I have made so many mistakes, and I still make mistakes all the time.
1:12:04 And I’ve upset people, I’ve hurt people, I’ve pissed people off.
1:12:11 And I don’t like doing it, I hate it, it grinds at me, but it’s my fuel because that’s the
1:12:14 signal I need to get better every day.
1:12:19 And I know that the one thing I can do is I have this process of getting better step
1:12:20 by step.
1:12:24 And I’ve been doing it since day, and I love it, that’s what I live for, learning.
1:12:25 Amazing.
1:12:27 And where can everybody learn more about you and everything that you do?
1:12:30 Well, I’m on LinkedIn.
1:12:35 I’m not on Instagram or TikTok, unfortunately, but obviously, I’m also a huge believer in
1:12:42 our Copilot AI, so you can download that in iOS, Android, or Copilot.Microsoft.com.
1:12:43 Good news for you.
1:12:45 A lot of our YAP listeners are on LinkedIn.
1:12:46 We talk about LinkedIn all the time.
1:12:47 Nice.
1:12:48 So I’ll put your link in the show notes.
1:12:51 And thank you so much, Mustafa, for all of your time.
1:12:52 This has been awesome.
1:12:54 Thanks so much.
1:13:02 Man, I have to say, guys, that was one of my favorite conversations I’ve had all year.
1:13:05 That conversation blew my mind.
1:13:10 Mustafa Suleiman is somebody who’s right at the cutting edge of AI technology, technology
1:13:14 that’s going to change how we all live our lives in the coming years.
1:13:19 And Mustafa is both optimistic and pessimistic about the future of AI.
1:13:23 On the one hand, he believes the technology could deliver the greatest boost of productivity
1:13:24 in the history of our species.
1:13:31 And we’ve had a lot of productivity booms, but like all big innovations, it’s also going
1:13:33 to be hugely disruptive.
1:13:38 It could destabilize our lives, our politics, and our workplaces in unpredictable ways.
1:13:40 We don’t even know what’s about to happen.
1:13:45 It could, for example, worsen the loneliness and isolation epidemic that so many of us
1:13:47 suffer from in this online world.
1:13:52 Or AI can bring us together in new ways that we never even thought possible.
1:13:58 Mustafa sees AI as a force amplifier, like having a super intelligent personal assistant
1:14:03 right at your fingertips who will help you invent new products and design new solutions.
1:14:09 This AI might accompany you to a job interview or even be the co-founder of your next business.
1:14:15 AI solutions like Co-Pilot could be the ultimate hype man for you and your business, something
1:14:20 that could open up opportunities and paths to entrepreneurship across much broader sections
1:14:21 of society.
1:14:26 But however optimistic or pessimistic you are about the future of AI, the technology
1:14:27 is here to stay.
1:14:31 And you’re going to need to know how to use it if you want to succeed in the business
1:14:33 landscape of the future.
1:14:35 I personally use AI every day.
1:14:38 I use ChatGBT every day to get my work done.
1:14:42 I use Google’s Notebook LM to get my work done.
1:14:46 We’re using Eleven Labs for my audio AI experimentation.
1:14:49 We’re using AI every day at Yacht Media.
1:14:55 And I’m doing this because I want to make sure I understand how to leverage AI in my
1:14:56 day-to-day tasks.
1:15:00 I want to get really good at directing AI and training my AI.
1:15:05 And I just feel like it’s so important for my future so that I stay relevant.
1:15:08 And I want to make sure you guys all get that message.
1:15:10 Get out there and give AI a try.
1:15:17 Google apps, do some research, figure out how AI can help you in your day-to-day right
1:15:21 now because there’s thousands of apps out there that you can play with.
1:15:27 Find the ones that help you accelerate your work and get used to working alongside AI because
1:15:29 that is the future.
1:15:33 Make yourself a new friend, buddy, or co-pilot.
1:15:37 They might just end up being your future business partner.
1:15:40 Thanks for listening to this episode of Young and Profiting Podcast.
1:15:44 Every time you listen and enjoy an episode of this podcast, please share it with somebody
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1:15:50 Maybe someday your AI personal assistant will be able to do that for you.
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1:16:08 to listen to this podcast, you love it so much, write us a review, tell the world how
1:16:10 much you love Young and Profiting Podcasts.
1:16:12 It is the number one way to thank us.
1:16:16 We get reviews every single day and they always make my day.
1:16:20 If you prefer to watch your podcast’s videos, you can find us on YouTube, just look up Young
1:16:21 and Profiting.
1:16:23 You’ll find all of our videos on there.
1:16:28 You can also find me on Instagram at @yappwithhala or LinkedIn by searching my name.
1:16:29 It’s @halata.
1:16:33 And before we go, I of course have to thank my incredible production team.
1:16:36 Shout out to our audio engineer, Maxie.
1:16:38 Thank you so much for all that you do.
1:16:43 Shout out to Amelia, Korday, Christina, Sean, Hisham for Khan.
1:16:45 It takes a village to put on this show.
1:16:50 So shout out to my entire team for doing incredible work.
1:16:55 Young and Profiting Podcasts is a top business show and it’s because of your hard work.
1:16:57 So thank you guys so much.
1:17:00 This is your host, Hala Taha, aka The Podcast Princess, signing off.
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