YAPClassic: Mark Batterson, Social Entrepreneurship for Visionary Leaders

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0:01:20 What’s up?
0:01:21 Yeah, bam.
0:01:25 Today, we’re revisiting one of my all-time favorite conversations with the inspiring Mark
0:01:26 Batterson.
0:01:32 We originally published this episode back in January 2022 as episode 154.
0:01:39 Mark Batterson is the lead pastor of National Community Church in DC, which owns and operates
0:01:42 DC’s largest coffee house, Ebenezer’s.
0:01:46 Mark is also a New York Times best-selling author who has written some of the most impactful
0:01:50 books on faith, purpose, and living a life full of action.
0:01:54 What makes Mark so special is his ability to connect the dots between big dreams and
0:01:58 the small daily actions that can bring them to life.
0:02:01 In this episode, we learned what it’s like to be a social entrepreneur and run a business
0:02:03 supporting a cause.
0:02:07 We’ll get an inside look at Mark’s unique and fulfilling career as a pastor, community
0:02:09 leader, and an entrepreneur.
0:02:14 We’ll learn Mark’s seven life-changing habits and understand Mark’s perspective on making
0:02:15 and breaking habits.
0:02:19 And lastly, we’ll gain insight on how to better stick with our habits by using commitment
0:02:25 devices and how to create chain reactions of good habits with the domino effect.
0:02:29 If you’re interested in social entrepreneurship or want to learn how to better tackle your
0:02:34 goals, let’s jump right in this conversation with Mark Batterson.
0:02:39 Hey Mark, welcome to Young and Profiting Podcast.
0:02:41 Well, thank you so much.
0:02:42 It’s a joy to be with you.
0:02:43 Yeah, likewise.
0:02:45 We’re super excited to have you on here.
0:02:49 For those of you who don’t know you, you are the lead pastor of the National Community
0:02:55 Church in Washington, D.C. You are also a New York Times bestselling author of 22 books,
0:02:58 including Do It for a Day and When the Day.
0:03:02 And for today’s episode, we’re going to really focus in on Do It for a Day, which is your
0:03:05 methodology around how to build habits.
0:03:08 And it’s super fascinating, one of my favorite topics.
0:03:11 And in addition to that, we also want to cover your journey because I found your journey
0:03:16 really fascinating and unique, and you have some great life lessons about that, about
0:03:18 following your purpose, following your gut.
0:03:20 So I would like to start there.
0:03:25 When you were first setting out on your journey, you ended up getting a scholarship to the
0:03:28 University of Chicago for basketball, and you were going to study law, but then you
0:03:33 quickly decided to abandon those dreams and become a pastor.
0:03:34 Let’s start there.
0:03:38 Talk to us about your start with college and how you made that big decision.
0:03:39 Yeah.
0:03:45 You know, let’s be honest, I probably went to the best college I could get into.
0:03:49 I barely got into the University of Chicago playing basketball, probably helped my case
0:03:52 a little bit, but I was.
0:03:57 I studied politics, economics, rhetoric, and law, just kind of this liberal arts degree,
0:04:03 and planned to go on that path, thought that maybe law would be something I would be interested
0:04:04 in.
0:04:11 Long story short, I really had this moment where I felt like maybe just maybe ministry
0:04:15 pastoring a church would be something that I would want to do, but I would want to do
0:04:18 it in a unique way, kind of from the ground up.
0:04:25 I had this entrepreneurial streak that I love starting things, and so we actually started
0:04:33 with a core group of 19 people, and a couple decades later, we’ve had the joy of impacting
0:04:40 tens of thousands of people, and I might add giving about $25 million to causes that we
0:04:46 really care about that make a difference in people’s lives, and so it’s been a joyride.
0:04:53 Nothing easy about leadership in any venue or any vein, but I kind of consider myself
0:05:01 a spiritual coach, and like coaching people towards purpose, towards meaning, and really
0:05:05 leveraging the gifts that I believe God has given to each one of us.
0:05:09 It’s super, super interesting, and I really love what you’ve done with the NCC, and how
0:05:13 you’ve really built that business model around your church.
0:05:18 So from my understanding, and from my research, I found out that you guys actually own one
0:05:22 of the biggest coffee shops in Washington, DC, it’s called Ebenezer, and it’s actually
0:05:25 a chain of coffee shops.
0:05:29 It started with you guys buying one property in the early 2000s, and then opening your doors
0:05:35 in 2006, and it kind of just took off, and I just found this so fascinating, why a coffee
0:05:40 house, and what can we learn about having a business from a cause and all the success
0:05:41 that you’ve had?
0:05:48 Yeah, you know, I think every business is owned by someone, and they have some kind of motive
0:05:54 in starting it, and if we’re just keeping it real, you know, some people, it’s primarily
0:06:00 a profit motive, and you know, I’m grateful that we live in a capitalist society where
0:06:08 we can pursue dreams, and I have nothing against that, but we started this coffee house with
0:06:14 the idea that what if we actually gave all the profits away to causes that we care about,
0:06:16 and so it really is coffee with a cause.
0:06:22 Now, I better back up a little bit, so we did buy a piece of property about five blocks
0:06:28 from the capital itself right on Capitol Hill, Block from Union Station, so it is location,
0:06:29 location, location.
0:06:36 In fact, we’re Kitty Corner to the Security and Exchange Commission, and so we’ve often
0:06:42 joked if you can’t make a coffee house work, Kitty Corner to like thousands of people
0:06:50 in law and finance, you probably can’t make it work anywhere, so we do have a great corner
0:06:55 here on Capitol Hill, and it’s been an amazing, amazing business.
0:07:00 I think caffeine makes the world a better place if we’re just being honest, like, I
0:07:04 don’t know about anybody else, but when I get up in the morning until I get my caffeine,
0:07:07 you don’t want to spend a whole lot of time with me.
0:07:14 I need my morning coffee, and so we feel like we’re both caffeinating the world and then
0:07:20 using those profits for some wonderful things, like the DC Dream Center that we operate in
0:07:28 Ward 7 and is just an amazing outreach to a part of our city that is under-resourced,
0:07:31 and so we’re mentoring kids.
0:07:37 We served 64,000 meals last year, and so it’s really this wonderful outreach, but part of
0:07:44 what funds it is this coffee house that we own and operate here on Capitol Hill.
0:07:49 It’s just so interesting that that’s how you decided to kind of fund the different projects
0:07:54 that your church takes on, and I have to imagine that a lot of people support the coffee shop
0:07:59 because it’s related to the church and that a lot of employees really love their job because
0:08:03 it’s so fulfilling, even if they’re not making like a whole ton of money working at a coffee
0:08:05 shop, they know that it’s going towards a good cause.
0:08:09 So talk to us about that a little bit and the culture that it’s driven.
0:08:14 Yeah, I think the coffee tastes a little bit better, feels a little bit better when you
0:08:18 know that it’s making a difference.
0:08:22 In fact, we use our space, part of our coffee houses.
0:08:28 We have a performance space that, you know, we can do events for 100, 150 people.
0:08:33 Well, every, every week, once a week, we turn that into something we call the living room
0:08:37 for our friends experiencing homelessness, which are kind of live on the streets around
0:08:38 DC.
0:08:44 And so part of what we do is also leverage our coffee house just to love on our neighbors,
0:08:47 people that find themselves without a roof over their head.
0:08:52 And so we feel like there’s a way to do business with excellence.
0:08:58 Now we’ve been around since 2006, so way back then there weren’t all of these third wave
0:09:01 independent coffee shops, which they pop up everywhere, right?
0:09:04 But back in the day, it was Starbucks.
0:09:08 We felt like, you know, if you can’t compete with Starbucks, just stay out of the game.
0:09:14 But now more and more, the coffee business has evolved in so many amazing ways.
0:09:21 And so we want to serve a great cup of coffee, but then there’s this social dimension to
0:09:22 it.
0:09:25 And, you know, it’s not like we came up with that idea.
0:09:29 I think about someone like Tom Shoes, for example, that kind of famous example, where
0:09:33 buy a pair and you end up giving a pair.
0:09:38 And so there is something about that business model, though, that resonates.
0:09:40 And I think it resonates with younger generations.
0:09:47 I’d be interested in your take on this, because there’s such a, there’s an instinct towards
0:09:55 justice and instinct towards the good of our culture and of neighbors.
0:10:01 And so have you seen that as well, that a lot of business models that, yeah.
0:10:07 A lot of millennials and Gen Z, like they don’t care about the money necessarily, like
0:10:11 they need a certain amount of money, and then everything after that is more about meaning
0:10:15 and purpose and, you know, their place in the world, rather than, you know, how much
0:10:18 more money they can make on top of whatever they’re already making.
0:10:20 So I totally agree there.
0:10:24 So I think there’s something like pretty special in what you’re doing.
0:10:26 I think it’s very unique.
0:10:30 And I just wonder, is there any way that we kind of could lay out that business model
0:10:34 a little bit more deeply for the listeners so they can understand like, hey, if I have
0:10:39 a great cause that I want to support, you need money to actually do that.
0:10:42 So there is a need to actually generate revenue.
0:10:47 And sometimes just asking for donations is just not enough and is not a proactive way
0:10:52 to actually, you know, fulfill your dream of giving back to society or improving society.
0:10:57 So talk to us about that and kind of your advice for somebody who wants to build a similar
0:10:58 business model.
0:11:05 Well, maybe I’ll come at that from this angle that along with this coffee house, there’s
0:11:07 another piece of property, a city block.
0:11:12 It’s 100,000 square feet that we have been building out into something called the capital
0:11:13 turnaround.
0:11:17 Ultimately, it’ll be a mixed use retail restaurant.
0:11:22 But one of the things we observed in our city is that our mayor said that one of the top
0:11:28 priorities is childcare or child development because there aren’t enough spots for those
0:11:30 preschool kids.
0:11:34 And in DC, most people are, you know, double income.
0:11:37 And so you’ve got people working and they need someone to watch your kids.
0:11:43 Well, instead of as a church building a kids ministry space, which we did, and it’s about
0:11:48 20,000 square feet, it’s got an indoor playground, it’s got a kid’s theater.
0:11:50 It’s a pretty, it’s pretty amazing.
0:11:56 But instead of using that once a week on the weekend, we said, what if that could be a Monday
0:11:58 to Friday child development center.
0:12:04 And so we have one of the largest child development centers in the city capacity for about 200
0:12:05 kids.
0:12:11 And where I’m going with that is, I think as an entrepreneur, you need a dream.
0:12:14 You absolutely need a vision of what you want to do.
0:12:18 And it ought to be in keeping with those passions that you have, because that’s what’s going
0:12:23 to get you up early and keep you up late and give you the energy to go after that dream.
0:12:26 But the other thing is you got to have a good pulse.
0:12:31 You kind of have to take the pulse of the culture around you.
0:12:35 And what are those needs, what, what, where are the gaps?
0:12:43 Where can you as an entrepreneur step in and even find unique ways of meeting those needs?
0:12:48 One fun thing is, you know, I even think about coffee shops, we all we have is just a coffee
0:12:49 shop.
0:12:56 It’s quite interesting how I’ve seen so many bike shop coffee shop tandems pop up.
0:12:58 And it’s such an interesting thing to me.
0:13:01 It’s like, do these two things really belong together?
0:13:09 But I think entrepreneurs are good at cross-pollinizing and getting ideas from different places.
0:13:12 And then, you know, let’s not just do it the way it’s always been done.
0:13:14 That’s how you repeat history.
0:13:17 Why don’t we make history and do it the way it’s never been done before?
0:13:22 And so, you know, part of what has driven us as a church, and I would say driven me
0:13:28 as a, as a entrepreneur or even as an author is just there are ways of doing this that
0:13:29 no one’s thought of yet.
0:13:31 And so that’s pretty exciting.
0:13:35 And I know some people are listening right now and they have an idea and it sounds like
0:13:36 a crazy idea.
0:13:42 Can I just say, hang on to those crazy ideas because that, that often is the thing that’s
0:13:48 going to differentiate you from the market and, and allow you to bring something to the
0:13:51 table that maybe no one else has tried before.
0:13:52 I totally agree.
0:13:55 I think your story is so inspirational.
0:14:01 And I really find your career so interesting because when you think of a pastor, you don’t
0:14:07 think entrepreneur, but yet like so much of what you do is actually entrepreneurship.
0:14:11 And I really feel like you’ve hit the nail on the head in terms of like passion, but
0:14:17 then also like financial stability and creating jobs for other people and just like helping
0:14:18 society.
0:14:20 So it’s just, it’s, you must feel really fulfilled.
0:14:23 So with that, I’d love to hear about all the different hats you wear because you wear a
0:14:24 lot of hats.
0:14:27 So let’s, let’s, let’s unpack that a bit.
0:14:31 Well, I, I, I wear a few hats.
0:14:35 You know, my, my day hat is pastoring a church and, and I love it.
0:14:40 I feel like my job is to comfort the afflicted and afflict the comfortable in the sense of
0:14:41 there are a lot of people hurting.
0:14:47 I mean, come on, one third of Americans say we’re anxious or depressed.
0:14:52 There’s just so much happening in culture from racial tension to political polarization.
0:14:58 And I want to be someone that, that stands in the gap and is really good at loving people
0:14:59 and helping people.
0:15:01 I think potential is God’s gift to us.
0:15:03 What we do with it is our gift back to God.
0:15:05 So that’s kind of the, the pastor hat.
0:15:10 What’s interesting is the writing hat, it’s actually not a natural gifting.
0:15:16 When I was in grad school, I took one of those assessments that basically shows your aptitude
0:15:17 for different things.
0:15:22 And my aptitude for writing was so low, it would basically, whatever you do, just never
0:15:24 think about writing a book.
0:15:31 So I read 3000 books before I wrote one because I knew that it wasn’t a natural gifting.
0:15:37 So I had to work a little bit harder than maybe other people who can naturally put pen
0:15:38 to paper.
0:15:43 And so the writing piece has just been, to be honest, a lot of early mornings.
0:15:49 And as a word of encouragement, because I think the latest stat I’ve seen is that about
0:15:53 81% feel like they might have a book in them.
0:15:59 And so to that, that potential author that’s out there listening right now, I just want
0:16:05 you to know that I felt called to write at 22, but I didn’t write a book until 35.
0:16:10 So hang in there, don’t be discouraged, it’s going to probably take longer than you think.
0:16:16 It might be harder than what you want, but about 13 years, but I didn’t waste my time
0:16:17 in between.
0:16:21 I was not just reading those books, I was reverse engineering them.
0:16:28 And so the pastor hat, the writing hat, and then that entrepreneurial hat are a few hats
0:16:29 that I enjoy wearing.
0:16:36 I guess maybe I feel like right now I’m just self-diagnosing is a little bit of ADHD that
0:16:38 I get easily bored.
0:16:41 I don’t like doing the same thing for too long.
0:16:46 And so in my hunch is a lot of people that are listening to this podcast kind of have
0:16:53 that your gifting is to start things or you have new ideas and it’s that entrepreneurial
0:16:54 streak.
0:16:58 So hopefully there’s some encouragement in there somewhere.
0:16:59 Oh yeah.
0:17:03 Your story is super inspirational and it’s clear you love to make an impact and I love
0:17:07 the fact that you said, you know, if you have the itch to write, don’t worry about how old
0:17:08 you are.
0:17:11 You’re never too old to learn something new and to start something new.
0:17:14 Even me with this podcast, I started when I was 28.
0:17:18 I started this podcast when I was 28 and I’m a number one podcast on the cover of podcast
0:17:20 magazine, blah, blah, blah.
0:17:25 And it took a few years to get there, but it’s okay, you know, and it wasn’t my first
0:17:26 word to either.
0:17:29 And I didn’t waste my time before that either, like you said, it’s not like you just sit
0:17:30 there and do nothing.
0:17:34 You have to learn gain the experience, gain the skills, and then you might be ready to
0:17:37 kind of hit the ground running when you do want to take on something new.
0:17:38 I love that.
0:17:44 And, you know, full disclosure, I should probably share that, you know, I’ve had the joy of
0:17:48 starting with a core group of 19 people pastoring this one church.
0:17:53 But my first attempt was a fail and I probably ought to put that out there.
0:18:00 And so I really believe that the cure for the fear of failure is not success.
0:18:04 It’s failure in small enough doses that you build up an immunity to it.
0:18:12 And so I think in some ways you have to experience some failure, preferably earlier in life.
0:18:17 And then it gives you the ability that, okay, you can get back up, dust off, and give it
0:18:25 a second try because I think, you know, largely success is well-learned failure and failure
0:18:28 is kind of poorly learned success, right?
0:18:33 And so it’s about learning those lessons along the way, especially in those early years where
0:18:36 some foundation is being laid for your life.
0:18:37 100%.
0:18:39 So let’s move on to your new book.
0:18:44 It’s called Do It For A Day, How to Make or Break Any Habit in 30 Days.
0:18:49 And so one of the things that you say in your book is we are one habit away from getting
0:18:52 into shape, financial freedom, and getting better mental health.
0:18:53 So what do you mean by that?
0:18:56 We’re one habit away from making all these changes.
0:19:00 Well, you know, big picture, show me your habits, I’ll show you your future.
0:19:04 Destiny is not a mystery, destiny is daily habits.
0:19:08 So whatever goal you’re going after, I think a lot of us, we want to dream big, kind of
0:19:14 set this goal, but you have to reverse engineer it into those daily habits.
0:19:21 So for example, a few years ago, I ran the Chicago Marathon and it’s the first one I’ve
0:19:26 ever done and I’m not a distance runner, you know, I played some basketball in college,
0:19:29 but I was more of a sprinter.
0:19:33 Well, I couldn’t just go out and run 26.2 miles.
0:19:38 I had to download a training plan and then reverse engineer it.
0:19:45 And so 475 miles over 72 training runs over six months, that’s how things happen.
0:19:50 Like if you want to get out of debt, it is going to happen one paycheck at a time and
0:19:53 it’s going to take tremendous discipline.
0:20:00 And so just a big believer in those habits and the word of encouragement is like, you
0:20:04 can accomplish so much more than you imagine.
0:20:10 The catch is you’ve got to have that daily discipline, that daily habit.
0:20:12 And that’s going to be the thing.
0:20:19 And it’s true physically, financially, I think spiritually and relationally.
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0:25:15 One of your really, really popular books called “Win the Day.”
0:25:20 You have seven life-changing habits, and you use these habits in your new book.
0:25:23 And I thought it would be great if we could do a little quick fire segment where I will
0:25:28 rattle off these seven habits because they’re just great life lessons in general.
0:25:33 And I’ll say the habit, and then you give us a like, you know, 30-second, one-minute
0:25:35 explanation on each one.
0:25:38 So the first one is flip the script.
0:25:42 If you want to change your life, you have to change your story.
0:25:50 And I think the narratives that we, our internal monologues, sometimes were our own worst enemy.
0:25:56 And so you really have to make sure that you’re telling the right story.
0:26:02 And so in cybernetics, there are two kinds of change, a first order, second order.
0:26:05 And second order change is conceptual.
0:26:11 It’s this idea of you really, a habit can’t just be something that you do.
0:26:13 It has to become part of your identity.
0:26:20 Maybe the easiest way to say it is quit saying that you’re writing and call yourself a writer.
0:26:24 Quit saying that you’re running and call yourself a runner.
0:26:26 You’ve got to own that identity.
0:26:27 So flip the script.
0:26:29 You’ve got to change the story.
0:26:30 I love that.
0:26:31 I had a guest on the show.
0:26:35 Her name is Marissa Peer, and she always says, “Tell yourself a better lie.”
0:26:36 Like lie to yourself.
0:26:37 Like you are a writer.
0:26:38 You are an entrepreneur.
0:26:40 Even if you’re not yet, tell yourself a better lie.
0:26:41 Yes.
0:26:42 Okay.
0:26:43 Kiss the wave.
0:26:44 Yeah.
0:26:48 And this is a, this is a tough one because I don’t think the obstacle is the enemy.
0:26:50 The obstacle is the way.
0:26:52 It’s the hard times that you walk through.
0:26:58 It’s the tests that you go through that are going to make you the bigger, better person
0:27:00 that you need to become.
0:27:04 And so kiss the wave is this idea of I’m going to, I’m going to embrace it.
0:27:08 In fact, can I just, on a personal note right here, because I, I’m guessing that there are
0:27:11 some people that might find themselves in this situation.
0:27:16 My wife, a couple of years ago diagnosed with cancer.
0:27:21 And that’s so hard when you get that news, but there’s one or two things that you can
0:27:22 do.
0:27:28 One is you can just kind of give up and sort of play defense.
0:27:34 But my wife read a piece of poetry that posed a question and it said, “What have you come
0:27:36 to teach me?”
0:27:38 In other words, like you’re going through a tough time.
0:27:43 Maybe there’s someone out there who’s, who’s going through chemo or radiation or there’s
0:27:46 some kind of struggle that you’re walking through.
0:27:48 You have to kiss the wave.
0:27:52 You have to learn the lesson, cultivate the character, make the change, whatever it is.
0:27:56 And so just the little challenge there to kiss the wave.
0:27:57 Yeah.
0:27:59 Like embrace all the obstacles that come your way basically.
0:28:00 Okay.
0:28:02 Feed the frog.
0:28:06 Mark Twain said, “If you ever have to eat a frog, do it first thing in the morning, then
0:28:08 you’ll know that the hardest thing is behind you.”
0:28:12 Which is kind of hilarious because I can’t imagine that scenario.
0:28:16 But it’s this idea of harder is better, do it difficult.
0:28:19 You got to get up and hit the ground running.
0:28:25 And so eat the frog is this idea that the way you gain strength is through resistance training.
0:28:30 And so I talk a little bit about things we can do, commitment devices that can enable
0:28:37 us to really eat the frog and cultivate some of those harder disciplines, especially with
0:28:39 that morning routine.
0:28:43 And we will definitely talk about commitment devices to make and break habits.
0:28:44 All right.
0:28:45 Fly the kite.
0:28:46 Yeah.
0:28:52 So the idea here is if you do little things like their big things, in my experience, God
0:28:55 has a way of doing big things that like their little things.
0:28:59 I think we want to do amazing things, big things.
0:29:06 But really, if you study exceptional athletes, for example, or musicians or people who are
0:29:13 just really good at their craft, the reality is they’re just better than the best of us
0:29:15 at the basics.
0:29:19 Someone asked Pablo Casals, one of the greatest cellists of all time.
0:29:25 I think he was like in his late 80s, early 90s, and he was still practicing like six
0:29:27 hours a day.
0:29:28 Imagine that.
0:29:30 And someone asked him why.
0:29:33 And I think his short answer was because I think I’m getting better.
0:29:39 It’s this idea that flying the kite is just getting 1% better every day.
0:29:45 It’s this mindset that I want to benchmark and get a little bit stronger, a little bit
0:29:47 smarter than I was yesterday.
0:29:48 Yeah.
0:29:52 In your book, you have a quote, “How you do anything is how you do everything related
0:29:53 to fly the kite.”
0:29:56 And that is literally my all-time favorite quote.
0:29:57 It has been for years.
0:29:58 It’s such a good one.
0:29:59 Okay.
0:30:00 Cut the rope.
0:30:01 Yeah.
0:30:04 At some point, you got to take the risk.
0:30:06 Playing it safe is risky.
0:30:09 The greatest risk is taking no risks.
0:30:15 And by the way, I love in my books, I usually try to include quite a bit of science and
0:30:18 history because I like geeking out on that stuff.
0:30:26 But Cut the Rope actually comes from one of the original, the OG elevator pitch, a guy
0:30:34 named Elisha Otis who in the Crystal Palace, the World’s Fair, debuted his elevator break
0:30:37 and did it in dramatic fashion.
0:30:38 He said, “Cut the rope.”
0:30:45 And an ax man literally cut the rope and his elevator break worked.
0:30:51 And the next thing you know, there are hundreds of skyscrapers in New York City, but it traces
0:30:55 back to someone who was willing to take the risk.
0:30:59 And without that elevator, you don’t have all those skyscrapers.
0:31:02 And so kind of a fun story to back that one up.
0:31:04 Oh, I love that story.
0:31:05 Okay.
0:31:07 Wind the clock.
0:31:08 Time is measured in minutes.
0:31:10 Life is measured in moments.
0:31:16 And so I think what we’ve got to do is be a little bit better at really enjoying the
0:31:17 moments of life.
0:31:19 We’re in such a hurry, aren’t we?
0:31:27 I think average person spends 122 minutes on social media and, listen, I love the phone,
0:31:33 the technology, the way that my phone gives me access to so many things and so many people.
0:31:34 I love it.
0:31:39 But there’s a great danger in that we’re so distracted that we can kind of miss what’s
0:31:41 happening around us.
0:31:47 And so the idea here is, and there are actually, there are two words in the Greek language
0:31:48 for time.
0:31:52 One is Kronos, and it’s this idea of the minutes.
0:31:56 And we’ve got to be good at time management, like that’s part of the deal.
0:32:01 But then Kyros is not just time, but opportunity.
0:32:07 And so we also have to be better at understanding the season of life that we’re in and when
0:32:13 moments present themselves, like learning to really wind the clock and enjoy those
0:32:14 moments.
0:32:15 Okay.
0:32:19 Last but not least, seed the clouds.
0:32:20 Yeah.
0:32:24 And this one, I have a little bit of fun on the science side because you can drop dry
0:32:28 ice into clouds and seed the clouds and cause it to rain.
0:32:31 There’s a fun little story about the origin of that.
0:32:37 And the idea here is that you’ve got to, you’ve got to prepare today for what you want to
0:32:38 experience tomorrow.
0:32:44 And you would think that this is self-evident and so obvious.
0:32:50 But the truth is, most of us want to, we want to win the lottery instead of win the day.
0:32:57 We kind of want to get lucky instead of fate favors the prepared, like let’s do our homework,
0:32:59 let’s do our groundwork.
0:33:05 Like I imagine that, I bet you studied a lot of other podcasts, you watched what other
0:33:07 people did.
0:33:13 You did your homework and then in order, and then you launch it, and then you keep learning.
0:33:17 And so you’re always seeding the future, seeding the clouds.
0:33:22 And so I think faith is being sure of what you hope for.
0:33:26 And it’s pretty critical that you, you won’t accomplish a hundred percent of the goals
0:33:28 that you don’t set.
0:33:34 And so I do, I have a hundred life goals and what those goals do, by the way, is I think
0:33:40 they, they sanctify the reticular activating system, the part of the brain that determines
0:33:42 what we notice and what goes unnoticed.
0:33:47 And so what goal setting does is, okay, now I’m going to notice anything and everything
0:33:50 related to accomplishing this goal.
0:33:55 And so I do think that goal setting is a piece of that puzzle.
0:33:56 Yeah.
0:33:58 And I completely agree with you.
0:34:02 You have to put in the reps, just use, you used me as an example, so I’ll just dig deeper
0:34:03 on that.
0:34:07 I used to work at a radio station, Young and Profiting Podcast is like my fifth show.
0:34:12 I had online radio shows, I had a YouTube show, I had a Facebook show, I built, like
0:34:16 hacked Twitter, I hacked LinkedIn, like I knew how to use social media.
0:34:18 I did social media for corporate companies.
0:34:23 And so I stuck all those things together and then launched my podcast, but it was after
0:34:26 all these things that I had been sewing to your point.
0:34:29 And Tim Story calls this work in your land.
0:34:33 It’s actually taking action every single day towards that bigger dream and leveling up
0:34:35 your skills.
0:34:39 I love that, working your land.
0:34:47 And one of my M.O.’s is this idea, and Jesus actually said this, be innocent as a dove,
0:34:48 shrewd as a snake.
0:34:53 And the idea here is, innocent as a dove is, you always have to check your motives.
0:34:58 Can I just challenge us, everybody on this call, like you got to check your ego at the
0:34:59 door.
0:35:03 I’ve got a mentor who, by the way, says there are two kinds of people in the world.
0:35:09 The first kind of person walks into a room and internally announces, “Here I am.”
0:35:10 It’s all about me, myself, and I.
0:35:14 They kind of feel like they’re God’s gift to everybody.
0:35:18 But then there’s a second kind of person that walks in and says, “There you are.
0:35:19 There you are.”
0:35:21 It’s all about everybody else.
0:35:27 If you just look to add value to other people, if you check your ego at the door, then I
0:35:33 really think there’s no limit to what you can accomplish because you’re not going to
0:35:34 short circuit.
0:35:37 It’s not going to come back and bite you in the back.
0:35:39 And so, innocent as a dove, I think, is key.
0:35:44 If you do the right thing for the wrong reason, it’s not going to turn out the way that you
0:35:45 want it to.
0:35:46 But then you have to be shrewd as a snake.
0:35:51 And I love that because I think you’ve got to be really good at your game.
0:35:58 I want to be really good at everything from communicating in public, which is what I do
0:36:00 on the weekend, to writing.
0:36:03 I work my craft.
0:36:08 I can literally spend an entire day, like, in a thesaurus, trying to figure out what is
0:36:10 the best word right here.
0:36:14 So I think it’s about really working hard.
0:36:19 And the way I say it is, you’ve got to pray like it depends on God, but work like it depends
0:36:20 on you.
0:36:22 And if you do those two things, usually some good things happen.
0:36:26 Guys, Mark is dropping so many bombs right now.
0:36:31 I advise that you go overwind that little bit and back and get inspired and motivated
0:36:33 to work super hard.
0:36:34 Okay.
0:36:36 So let’s talk about habit formation.
0:36:40 So 45% of our behaviors are made up of habits.
0:36:42 If you guys listen to this podcast, you know that already.
0:36:45 We always talk about habits on this podcast.
0:36:49 So something interesting that I found in your book was that you say that habit formation
0:36:52 is as old as the Sermon on the Mount.
0:36:53 What does that mean?
0:36:58 And is habit formation or the concept of it really that ancient?
0:36:59 It really is.
0:37:04 I mean, I think long before B. F. Skinner came along or Ivan Pavlov and taught us about
0:37:11 condition reflexes or operant conditioning, I would argue that the Sermon on the Mount,
0:37:17 which is kind of Jesus’ most famous sort of message to the world.
0:37:21 I can reduce it down to just six counter habits.
0:37:23 Love your enemies.
0:37:25 Pray for those who persecute you.
0:37:26 Bless those who curse you.
0:37:27 Turn the other cheek.
0:37:29 Go the extra mile and give the shirt off your back.
0:37:33 That’s a quick crash course in the Sermon on the Mount.
0:37:34 Here’s the thing.
0:37:36 None of those things are natural.
0:37:40 Like if someone slaps me, my reaction is to slap them right back.
0:37:42 And so what’s happening here?
0:37:46 Well, I would call them six counter habits.
0:37:52 And so, yeah, I think this idea is pretty ancient.
0:37:57 And I think that habit formation and spiritual formation may be the same thing.
0:38:03 And I realize, you know, I love the fact that a lot of different people from a lot of different
0:38:07 faith or non-faith backgrounds listening to this.
0:38:11 And so you have to put that through your filter.
0:38:17 But the truth is, habit formation is at the heart of anything and everything that we try
0:38:18 to do.
0:38:24 And so, yeah, I think Jesus had some good things to say about that.
0:38:28 We’ll be right back after a quick break from our sponsors.
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0:43:26 So I know that you have your habit cycle that you talk about in your book.
0:43:33 And it’s very similar to Charles Duhigg’s habit loop, which is a cue routine and reward.
0:43:38 So talk to us about your habit cycle and what the steps are to make or break any habit.
0:43:39 Yeah.
0:43:44 And let me go on record, you know, like any other writer, you’re researching what everybody
0:43:45 else writes.
0:43:49 And the truth is there’s nothing new under the sun.
0:43:54 All of us are sort of reinventing, recasting so many other ideas.
0:44:00 So I love Charles Duhigg great book on habits, same with atomic habits.
0:44:03 So many amazing books.
0:44:06 I take my unique slant on it.
0:44:09 And I think it is you have to you have to identify the prompt.
0:44:13 There’s so many triggers that we have for better or for worse.
0:44:16 And then you have to interrupt the pattern.
0:44:20 And that’s hard to do because we are these creatures of habit.
0:44:27 We just the way I would say it is once a routine becomes routine, you have to change the routine
0:44:32 even because it’s the law of requisite variety.
0:44:38 It’s this idea that if you go to the gym, which good for you, but if you work out the
0:44:44 same sequence on the same machines every single time, it actually loses effectiveness
0:44:47 because your body adapts to it.
0:44:51 And so what a trainer will do is actually confuse your muscles.
0:44:52 How?
0:44:57 Well, they’ll they’ll give you a different incline on the bench or they’ll make you do
0:45:05 some kind of exercise with a tire that instead of instead of with a weight, what they’re doing
0:45:06 is the law of requisite variety.
0:45:13 You have to change the sequence, mix it up, then and only then is your body going to react
0:45:14 to that and grow from it.
0:45:19 In fact, here’s a little formula that maybe people can jot down and it’s something I put
0:45:21 into practice all the time.
0:45:27 Change of pace plus change of place equals change of perspective.
0:45:30 And so what I need to do is change my pace.
0:45:35 If I’m always running at the same pace, I’m going to get in trouble because it doesn’t
0:45:40 allow me, sometimes you have to walk three miles an hour to get different mindsets or
0:45:43 different ideas and then change a place.
0:45:49 There’s just something about, for me, oh man, get me at 30,000 feet.
0:45:51 I just have more better ideas.
0:45:55 I don’t know what it is, but that change of place is huge.
0:46:01 And so you’ve got to figure out how and where you can go to change pace, change place to
0:46:04 kind of get that change of perspective.
0:46:06 Very interesting stuff.
0:46:08 So I’d love for you to share a story with us.
0:46:14 So in your book, you talk about the Domino Champ Bob Specka and how he did really well
0:46:19 with dominoes and you describe a term called the domino effect in habit formation.
0:46:23 So talk to us about the domino effect and this domino champ.
0:46:24 Absolutely.
0:46:30 I think it traces back to a guy named Lauren Whitehead, an engineer who published a study
0:46:36 in the American Journal of Physics and it was called Domino Chain Reaction.
0:46:41 What he discovered is that a two-inch domino is capable of knocking over a domino this
0:46:43 one and a half times its size.
0:46:47 So a two-inch domino knock over a three-inch, three-inch can knock over four and a half
0:46:48 inch.
0:46:49 And so I just have a little bit of fun with it.
0:46:54 By the time you get to the 18th domino, you can knock over the Leaning Tower of Pisa.
0:46:58 Of course, it’s leaning, so that’s not entirely fair.
0:47:00 You get to, I think it’s the 23rd domino.
0:47:05 You could take down the Washington Monument, 27th domino, I think, the Eiffel Tower.
0:47:10 And by the time you get to that 28th domino, you can knock over the Burj Khalifa, tallest
0:47:11 building in the world.
0:47:19 It’s this idea that don’t get overwhelmed by the huge goals or the things that are so
0:47:20 far out there.
0:47:29 Just focus on that two-inch domino if you write 100 words a day and you do that five
0:47:32 days a week.
0:47:38 That may not seem like much, but when that year is up, you’ve written yourself a book.
0:47:43 So don’t get overwhelmed by the quantity or size.
0:47:46 Break it down into those dominoes.
0:47:51 You know, when I started training for that marathon, I could barely run three miles.
0:47:52 It was killing me.
0:47:53 It was killing me.
0:47:59 And for the record, like I did not win the Chicago Marathon, okay, I finished in the
0:48:06 middle of the pack, but for me, the fact, yes, I finished, thank you, I finished.
0:48:08 They give you a medal for finishing, right?
0:48:15 And so, you know, you have to start small and then just stick with it and don’t try
0:48:17 not to get too discouraged.
0:48:22 I think this idea of just do it for a day and then getting a win streak going where
0:48:27 two days in a row, three days in a row, that’s where the magic happens.
0:48:33 It’s about creating winning streaks and it’s breaking it down into that daily discipline.
0:48:36 Maybe, can I share one other kind of simple example?
0:48:39 Yes, 100%, whatever you think to drive it home.
0:48:46 You know, I think I’m a little bit concerned and this is not an indictment per se, and
0:48:50 it really, this doesn’t matter where you land politically or anything else.
0:48:53 There’s just a lot of negativity these days.
0:48:56 There is a lot of negativity.
0:49:03 And one of the things that I do to fight negativity in my own life is I keep a gratitude journal,
0:49:08 three gratitudes a day, and I just jot down, what am I grateful for?
0:49:14 What am I like, wow, like I get to do this or I’m just so thankful for this or that or
0:49:15 the other thing.
0:49:20 And what that’s done in my life just by coming up with three gratitudes a day, that little
0:49:28 daily habit totally changes my mindset, changes my heart and how I feel at the beginning and
0:49:29 end of the day.
0:49:32 And so that maybe is a simple example.
0:49:37 I promise you, you find three things you’re grateful for every day.
0:49:43 And it can really change your outlook and your attitude and how you feel about life.
0:49:44 Oh, I totally agree.
0:49:48 And what you said before about, you know, taking action every day, taking these small
0:49:52 steps, really reminded me of something Jeff Hayden told us when he came on the show.
0:49:55 Jeff Hayden, he wrote the motivation myth.
0:49:58 And basically it’s this concept that like motivation doesn’t happen first.
0:50:02 You actually need to take action first, and then there’s this motivation feedback loop
0:50:06 where you take a little bit of action, you know, you get good results, you get motivated
0:50:09 to do it again, and then, and then you get more good results and you’re motivated to
0:50:10 do it again.
0:50:14 But if you don’t start, you never get any of that feedback and people think that motivation
0:50:16 is going to fall from the sky, but really it doesn’t.
0:50:18 You have to actually start.
0:50:22 And yes, there’s going to be ups and downs, but every time you get that up, you get that
0:50:23 motivation to keep going.
0:50:27 And as you learn more, you get motivation to keep going because you understand more
0:50:31 and it just gets a little bit easier and easier every time.
0:50:37 That is so good and so true because that first step is the hardest one.
0:50:43 By the way, the key moment for me in writing that first book after 13 years of kind of
0:50:50 a dream deferred was I leveraged my 35th birthday and I said, I’m not going to turn 35 without
0:50:51 a book to show for it.
0:50:56 It may not be very good, may not even be edited, but I’m just, I’m finally, I’m throwing down
0:50:57 the gauntlet.
0:51:03 And so, you know, part of it is you’ve got to give yourself a start date and a deadline
0:51:07 because a dream without a deadline is called a wish.
0:51:14 And so in some ways it’s just about, you have to, you almost have to Jedi mind trick yourself.
0:51:21 You have to give yourself self-imposed deadlines and sometimes, and there are ways you can
0:51:27 bring other people into the puzzle to kind of hold you accountable to that, but you have
0:51:33 to know how your wire, what’s going to motivate me to really go after this, but that’s so
0:51:34 true.
0:51:36 You got to, you cannot finish what you do not start.
0:51:37 Okay.
0:51:40 So I think you are alluding to a commitment device.
0:51:44 So what is a commitment device and how do we use it to make or break habits?
0:51:51 Yeah, you know, it’s funny because I think the most obvious commitment device is something
0:51:53 called an alarm clock.
0:52:00 You know, it’s this idea that when you get up every day is a pretty significant factor
0:52:07 because if you’re getting up just in time to kind of eat breakfast, get a shower, get
0:52:13 out the door and get to work, I don’t think that’s a recipe for like accomplishing your
0:52:14 dreams.
0:52:16 I don’t think you’re going to get in shape that way.
0:52:18 I don’t think you’re going to get out of debt that way.
0:52:22 I don’t think you’re going to grow spiritually, relationally that way.
0:52:25 And so you really have to leverage that alarm clock.
0:52:29 A commitment device is simply it’s giving yourself a deadline.
0:52:35 It’s putting things in place that force you to actually do what it is that you’re saying
0:52:36 that you’re going to do.
0:52:42 What’s fun is I actually leverage occasionally in one of my messages, you know, and I have
0:52:47 the privilege of speaking to a few thousand people every weekend and one of the things
0:52:53 I do, and this is a little trick of the trade, is all go public with something because I
0:52:55 know that then I’ll hold myself accountable.
0:53:00 So I announced in a message, hey, I’m going to run a marathon when I couldn’t even run
0:53:01 three miles yet.
0:53:08 So there’s a commitment device is basically something that forces your hand.
0:53:11 It’s making that appointment.
0:53:14 It’s filling out the application.
0:53:22 It’s doing something that initiates that process and forces you to commit to it.
0:53:23 Yeah.
0:53:26 And I think sometimes it can be a financial investment, you know, they always say that
0:53:30 if you actually pay for a course or coach, you’re actually going to follow through because
0:53:31 you made that investment.
0:53:35 Well, when it’s free, like, you’re just like, oh, well, I guess I could flake and it doesn’t
0:53:36 really matter.
0:53:40 That’s so good because then you have skin in the game.
0:53:45 And so fun fact, the coffee house, Ebenezer’s coffee house that we own and operate on Capitol
0:53:46 Hill.
0:53:47 It was a crack house.
0:53:52 It was the dilapidated property and it wasn’t even zone commercial.
0:53:58 The first thing I did, I was at an auction at our kids’ schools and there was some book
0:54:01 on the zoning codes for Capitol Hill.
0:54:08 And I remember I bid $85 and it would have been a total waste of money if we didn’t
0:54:12 buy the property and eventually rezone it and eventually build the coffee house.
0:54:13 But you know what?
0:54:18 I go back to that moment and it was a unique moment because I put, it was only $85, but
0:54:21 it was me putting some skin in the game.
0:54:26 And so I think that’s so good that you have to invest a little bit in it just to kind
0:54:27 of get it off the ground.
0:54:29 You know, I talk to all these experts all the time.
0:54:34 So I always have like everyone’s like thoughts in my head of all the guests that I’ve studied
0:54:35 over the years.
0:54:39 So Gretchen Rubin recently came on the show and she breaks down the world into four personality
0:54:40 types.
0:54:45 And I feel like this really resonates with people who are one of her personality types
0:54:50 called obligers, which mean that they really need external accountability to get anything
0:54:51 done.
0:54:53 And so part of this is knowing your personality.
0:54:58 So like for example, I’m in a holder and I actually don’t really need that much external
0:54:59 accountability.
0:55:03 That means that if I decide to go on a diet, I go on a diet because I told myself I would.
0:55:05 If I want to exercise three times a week, I do it.
0:55:08 I don’t need a gym partner or a trainer or whatever to go do it.
0:55:14 But if that’s you and you have trouble sticking to your internal goals and anything that you
0:55:17 don’t have external accountability for, then you need commitment devices.
0:55:21 And when you’re trying to start a habit and so you need to proactively do those things
0:55:24 to make you stick to those goals and to those habits.
0:55:29 And so I also think, you know, knowing yourself and what you’re good and not good at is key
0:55:30 to all of this.
0:55:32 Oh, that’s so good.
0:55:37 And that maybe is where the whole thing starts that, yeah, you have to know yourself really
0:55:41 well that leadership starts with self leadership.
0:55:45 And so much of that is really knowing the way that you’re wired.
0:55:46 It’s crazy.
0:55:51 I think some of us know, know more about our, our favorite celebrity than we know about
0:55:52 ourselves.
0:55:54 And so it’s, it’s that ancient idea.
0:55:55 Know thyself.
0:55:56 Yeah.
0:55:57 All right.
0:56:01 So as we wrap up this interview, a couple of questions that I ask all my guests at the
0:56:07 end of the show, what is one action we can take today to become more profitable tomorrow?
0:56:08 Oh, wow.
0:56:09 I love it.
0:56:12 Can I just, here’s the first thing that comes to mind.
0:56:18 When I set a hundred life goals, the turning point for me was when I shifted from getting
0:56:26 goals to giving goals, it totally transformed the way that I think my goal is to give it
0:56:27 all away.
0:56:33 And, and so instead of setting getting goals, you set giving goals and you have to get a
0:56:35 lot to give a lot.
0:56:41 But there’s something about that that setting giving goals was a huge turning point for
0:56:48 me because it made it more of an altruistic kind of motivation, which, which really changed
0:56:49 the game for me.
0:56:51 Let’s, let’s dig deeper on that.
0:56:54 Say a getting goal versus a giving goal or like flip it on its head to become giving.
0:56:55 Yeah.
0:57:00 Like a, a getting goal is I, hey, I want to be financially independent by 50.
0:57:06 I want to, you know, make that first million by, or I want to have a net worth of X, Y,
0:57:12 and Z. And I get that, like there’s nothing wrong with financial planning and planning
0:57:18 for retirement, but my wife and I, our goal is to give a greater and greater percentage
0:57:19 of our income away.
0:57:25 And part of that is motivated by what, what I see in the person of Jesus and I see in
0:57:30 scripture that our goal is to eventually live on 10% and give away 90%.
0:57:35 And so what we’ve done with every book contract is that we give a greater percentage away.
0:57:40 And I tell you what, that’s where joy is found on the giving side of life.
0:57:45 And then it makes the getting feel really good because you know that you’re going to
0:57:48 be a conduit for blessing other people.
0:57:54 And so, yeah, it’s a simple idea that, you know, we want to give away a million, 10 million,
0:57:57 you know, as a church, we want to give away 25 million.
0:57:59 We’ve hit that goal.
0:58:03 And so now we’re dreaming bigger, like how can we give it all away?
0:58:07 I think that mindset is really a game changer.
0:58:08 Yeah.
0:58:09 It’s super interesting.
0:58:10 I never heard that one before.
0:58:14 And what is your secret to profiting in life?
0:58:21 The secret, I think, to profiting in life is to, it’s not about you.
0:58:23 It’s just, it’s not about me.
0:58:24 It’s about other people.
0:58:28 When I add value to other people’s lives, that’s where I find joy.
0:58:30 That’s where I find meaning.
0:58:32 And it’s kind of like happiness.
0:58:34 If you seek it, you aren’t going to find it.
0:58:36 Happiness is a byproduct of something else.
0:58:39 I think meaning is the same way.
0:58:42 Like you, and here’s where I would challenge listeners.
0:58:46 Have you ever defined success for yourself?
0:58:51 Not adopting a cultural definition, not adopting your great uncle’s definition?
0:58:52 No, you.
0:58:53 What is success for you?
0:58:58 And so for me personally, success is when those who know me best respect me most.
0:59:00 And that’s my wife and my kids.
0:59:04 You know, it’s not about how many books I sell, how many people I pastor.
0:59:09 It really is about, am I, am I better in private than I am in public?
0:59:12 And if not, am I at least the same person?
0:59:14 I want to be famous in my own home.
0:59:21 So you really have to define success for yourself and figure out otherwise you fall
0:59:24 into what, what Steven Covey famously said.
0:59:28 So many people are so busy climbing the ladder of success that they fail to realize that
0:59:31 it’s leaning against the wrong wall.
0:59:35 Man, that was so powerful.
0:59:41 Yeah, for me success is when those who know me best respect me most.
0:59:43 And that’s my wife and kids.
0:59:49 And so really, and especially right in the world that we live in where a lot of people,
0:59:55 there’s just a lot of, come on, there’s a lot of trolling and shaming and baiting and
0:59:59 canceling and kind of everybody’s doing this to everybody.
1:00:04 At the end of the day, I care most about the people who know me and love me.
1:00:10 To start there, make sure that that grass is green right, right where you live and then
1:00:12 let it expand out from there.
1:00:13 That is amazing advice.
1:00:14 Thank you so much, Mark.
1:00:16 This was such a lovely conversation.
1:00:17 I loved learning about your journey.
1:00:20 I loved learning about your perspective related to habits.
1:00:24 And then this last bit about, you know, your, your secret to profiting in life was also
1:00:25 amazing.
1:00:26 So thank you so much for your time.
1:00:27 My joint privilege.
1:00:28 God bless.
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