Paul Brunson: Women Need To Lower Their Standards! If They Have These 3 Traits, Never Let Them Go! If You Get Sick, There’s A 624% Chance He’ll Leave!

0:00:02 Should you keep secrets from your partner?
0:00:03 This is big.
0:00:04 Yes.
0:00:07 And the data shows it will help to increase satisfaction
0:00:09 and lower conflict in your relationship.
0:00:10 So give me an example of something
0:00:12 that I shouldn’t say to my partner.
0:00:13 Here’s a juicy one.
0:00:14 So…
0:00:16 What about s***?
0:00:18 Oh, no.
0:00:19 Oh, my God!
0:00:22 He was one I said a lot of no or s***.
0:00:25 Paul C. Brunson is the world’s most influential matchmaker
0:00:26 who blends groundbreaking science research
0:00:28 and over 15 years of expertise
0:00:31 to prove that anyone can create unshakable foundations
0:00:33 for long-lasting, life-changing love.
0:00:37 I read about this study that says the men are approximately 624% more likely
0:00:39 to separate if the woman gets terminally ill.
0:00:40 Yes.
0:00:41 What is going on there?
0:00:44 Typically, it’s because there is a low-level satisfaction in the relationship
0:00:46 from not having enough sex, for example.
0:00:48 But this is a major issue
0:00:52 because 80% of relationships have a lower level of satisfaction today
0:00:53 than any point in history.
0:00:57 And part of that is because most of what we know about finding and keeping love
0:01:00 has unfortunately been fed to us through lies.
0:01:02 Let’s pause that because I want to talk about those myths.
0:01:03 Okay.
0:01:06 So it does having more sex increase the happiness in your relationship?
0:01:07 No.
0:01:08 What about having doubts in your relationship?
0:01:09 Is that bad?
0:01:11 That couldn’t be further from the truth.
0:01:12 Really?
0:01:14 It’s actually healthy to have doubts about your relationship.
0:01:15 And this is why.
0:01:16 What about if someone cheats?
0:01:18 Is that the end of the relationship?
0:01:19 Brilliant question.
0:01:20 And quite honestly?
0:01:23 And then what are the most important qualities I need in a partner?
0:01:24 Okay.
0:01:25 This blew my mind.
0:01:28 There are three traits to have a phenomenal relationship.
0:01:29 Number one.
0:01:31 What the f***?
0:01:35 I find it incredibly fascinating that when we look at the back end of Spotify
0:01:37 and Apple and our audio channels,
0:01:41 the majority of people that watch this podcast haven’t yet hit the follow button
0:01:43 or the subscribe button wherever you’re listening to this.
0:01:45 I would like to make a deal with you.
0:01:47 If you could do me a huge favor and hit that subscribe button.
0:01:50 I will work tirelessly from now until forever
0:01:52 to make the show better and better and better and better.
0:01:55 I can’t tell you how much it helps when you hit that subscribe button.
0:01:57 The show gets bigger, which means we can expand the production,
0:01:59 bring in all the guests you want to see,
0:02:01 and continue to do in this thing we love.
0:02:03 If you could do me that small favor and hit the follow button,
0:02:06 wherever you’re listening to this, that would mean the world to me.
0:02:08 That is the only favor I will ever ask you.
0:02:10 Thank you so much for your time.
0:02:14 Boom.
0:02:15 Steven.
0:02:16 Good to see you again.
0:02:17 It’s awesome to be here.
0:02:20 I’m going to ask you a question that assumes that I don’t know who you are.
0:02:23 Which is quite hard because I know you very well.
0:02:29 But who are you and who are you to write these two books that I have in front of me?
0:02:31 Find Love and Keep Love.
0:02:34 Well, who am I?
0:02:36 I’m first and foremost a husband.
0:02:38 I’m a father.
0:02:39 I’m a son.
0:02:40 I’m a brother.
0:02:41 I’m a cousin.
0:02:42 I’m an uncle.
0:02:43 I’m a mentor.
0:02:44 I’m a mentee.
0:02:45 I’m all of those things.
0:02:47 I feel like those are the things I am first.
0:02:52 But I have a long standing history with relationships.
0:02:54 You know, I became a matchmaker.
0:02:56 My wife and I launched a matchmaking agency.
0:02:59 We became one of the largest agencies in the United States.
0:03:04 And what’s interesting about being a matchmaker is that a lot of people don’t even realize that is a career.
0:03:07 Like there’s legit matchmakers.
0:03:11 There’s probably, I’d say, roughly a thousand full-time matchmakers around the world.
0:03:18 And what we do is we literally match people together for long-term committed relationships.
0:03:25 But what ends up happening if you’re successful with that is two people enter a long-term committed relationship.
0:03:32 And because they’ve built up a relationship with you, they have questions about how do they keep that relationship?
0:03:33 How do they keep their love?
0:03:42 So my wife and I then began to transition into counselors and coaches for married couples or couples who were in committed relationships.
0:03:43 So that’s where that started.
0:03:45 And that went on for over a decade.
0:03:50 And then on top of that, I started, you know, I had research, global research at Tinder,
0:03:58 which is a great opportunity for me to look at a very large data set and make predictions as to what’s happening with our relationships.
0:04:09 I host television shows, reality TV shows, which for good or for bad, I think help to spark conversation about relationships that are needed.
0:04:10 So I’m doing research there.
0:04:17 You know, I do podcasts like this, you know, so my life actually is all about relationships.
0:04:19 And that’s the reason why I wanted to write this book.
0:04:22 And that’s the reason why I feel qualified to write this book.
0:04:25 So how long ago was it that you started doing the matchmaking?
0:04:26 Oh, my gosh.
0:04:30 So 2008 is when I officially began.
0:04:31 17 years.
0:04:32 Matchmaking.
0:04:33 Yeah.
0:04:34 17 years.
0:04:35 It was a long time ago.
0:04:38 The reason I ask that is a lot has changed in 17 years.
0:04:39 Yes.
0:04:44 We’ve been through this evolution of dating apps and matchmaking services and things like match.com.
0:04:49 And my question is, where do you think we find ourselves today as it relates to relationships?
0:04:51 Like, what is the macro picture?
0:04:52 How are people feeling?
0:04:57 The person that’s watching this right now, that’s either single and looking or in a relationship and maybe struggling.
0:05:02 Can you give me an overview, a synopsis of how they’re feeling in their head?
0:05:03 Sure.
0:05:04 Sure.
0:05:05 And why?
0:05:06 This is a great one.
0:05:08 So we’re feeling different things.
0:05:10 There’s a small percentage of us.
0:05:16 And I’ll go to Eli Finkel research who wrote phenomenal books, but one is called the all or nothing marriage that I love.
0:05:29 And in it, he states that if you look at marriages slash committed relationships, that 20% of us have higher satisfaction than we ever have in the history of relationships.
0:05:30 And you think 20%.
0:05:32 One is that’s fairly small.
0:05:34 And do they really have high satisfaction?
0:05:36 And I fully believe this.
0:05:39 And the reason why is because we have tools.
0:05:48 You know, we have people who watch podcasts, read books, watch television shows, we have tools like we’ve never had before more access to therapy.
0:05:58 So 20% very satisfied, but 80% more dissatisfied, more upset, more confused than ever before.
0:06:05 And I would say that those who are not in relationships, the pool reflects that as well.
0:06:16 I think there’s a 20% of singles who are hopeful and are developing the tools and developing the skills and learning active listening and all these things.
0:06:19 And they will, and they believe they’ll enter strong relationships.
0:06:21 They’re, they’re very hopeful.
0:06:34 I think there’s 80% out there that are perhaps hopeless, disgruntled, confused, dismayed, you know, and, and I would say that that’s, that’s the landscape today.
0:06:50 And that being said, the reason for that is because we over the years have placed more emphasis on one partner versus having a village to lean on.
0:06:52 So we’re, we’re, we’re leaning more.
0:06:56 So we’re, we’re, we’re, we’re requiring more from our partners.
0:07:03 So what that means is that if we’re requiring more, if we’re requiring our partner to be, we want our partner to be our best friend.
0:07:06 We all want to launch a business and be a CEO, right?
0:07:09 So we want our partner to be co-CEO or COO.
0:07:11 We want our partner to be a great parent.
0:07:18 We want our partner to come home at night, take their clothes off and do backflips in the bedroom, right?
0:07:19 This is what we want.
0:07:20 This is what we want.
0:07:34 So we want now more from that one person versus 30 years ago, 300 years ago, 3,000 years ago, 300,000 years ago when, when humans really began 300,000 years ago.
0:07:39 So you, you look at all this and you say, wow, we want more.
0:07:42 So therefore we’re going to have lower satisfaction.
0:07:45 So this is what I believe the landscape is today.
0:07:53 And if we start then with people that are looking for love, people that are in search of love, how are the, the current tools?
0:08:01 Because I see so much online about how people are disenfranchised with like things like dating apps and they’ve tried like social media.
0:08:07 And I’ve got so many of my friends who are struggling at the moment, they’re going on 100 dates a year and they’re unable to find anybody.
0:08:10 And I ponder to myself, I go, you’re going on 100 dates a year.
0:08:16 You’re almost a professional data and you still can’t find somebody.
0:08:26 Surely that’s not through lack of options or like the top of the funnel there, the sort of exposure is fine.
0:08:32 But there’s something further down the funnel as it relates to them being able to convert somebody that seems to be off.
0:08:33 Right, right.
0:08:39 But, but also I would argue that it could even stem, you could go deeper to the root.
0:08:40 Right.
0:08:42 So you think about attachment styles, attachment styles.
0:08:44 I know you’ve talked a lot about attachment styles.
0:08:48 Attachment styles are kind of the hot thing, the hot trend that people are talking about.
0:08:49 Rightfully so.
0:08:50 I like this.
0:08:53 And if you think about that, they’re primarily three.
0:08:54 Right.
0:08:57 We know we have secure, there’s anxious and there’s avoidant.
0:09:01 There’s, there are other variations, but in essence, these are the three.
0:09:08 Now, depending on who you talk to, roughly 50, 60% of the population are secure.
0:09:13 That means the balance are going to be anxious or avoidant or some combination.
0:09:26 So therefore, if you are on a date and you have an anxious attachment style or you have an avoidant attachment style and you have someone in front of you who is the perfect match for you.
0:09:28 They’re, they’re, they’re taken off all the boxes.
0:09:40 You could be so anxious or so avoidant that you push them away or you lay blame to a certain character, a characteristic or a trait that they have that means nothing to the relationship and you dismiss them.
0:09:43 You know, this is going to sound funny, but it’s sad.
0:09:54 Is, do you know what we found when we were matchmaking, what the number one reason why people did not allow someone, someone to get a second date with them?
0:10:00 They had a Velcro wallet.
0:10:04 Velcro wallets are cool though.
0:10:06 No, they don’t.
0:10:07 No, they’re not.
0:10:08 You can’t, no.
0:10:09 All right.
0:10:10 So you know what it was?
0:10:11 It was around attraction.
0:10:17 So one, it was, you know, physical attraction, but in particular it was because they, they smelled.
0:10:18 Really?
0:10:20 They had bad breath, halitosis, right?
0:10:22 Or there was some odor.
0:10:28 Now, you can argue that scent plays a strong role in our partner selection.
0:10:31 Dr. Taurus Ford talks about this quite, quite a bit, right?
0:10:37 So there’s, there’s a evolutionary biology that comes with scent.
0:10:38 Yes, I agree.
0:10:45 But to look across from someone and say, you know what, you probably like, you, like your breath stinks, right?
0:10:47 And I’m not going to give up the second date.
0:10:51 And as a result of your breath stinks, you have long fingernails.
0:10:54 You’re, you’re, you’re in a track suit, right?
0:11:02 To look at these moments and say, because of this thing, I’m going to dismiss you as a partner.
0:11:07 I think for a lot of people, sounds logical, but then for a lot of people, sounds ridiculous.
0:11:08 You know what I mean?
0:11:12 Now, how you got to that point is the challenge.
0:11:19 If you think it’s ridiculous, how you got to assuming that because someone has a track suit on, because they have long fingernails,
0:11:26 it dismisses their, their, their validity of being a great partner.
0:11:27 That is about you.
0:11:29 That is about you, your attachment.
0:11:31 That is about how you’ve been socialized.
0:11:40 That is about, so I would argue that people who are going on lots and lots and lots of dates and they still can’t feel like they can find the right partner.
0:11:44 The first place to look at is yourself.
0:11:51 I do wonder this because I think the more dates you go on, the more reference points of comparison you then have for the next person.
0:11:58 So date 101, if you’ve been on 100 previously, you’ve now got a hundred guys who are maybe all good at one thing.
0:12:04 And date 101 is going to be compared to the previous 100 on all factors.
0:12:07 So maybe date 49 had great sense of humor.
0:12:10 Date 53 was rich.
0:12:13 Date 67 was physically beautiful.
0:12:18 Date 101 is going to be compared to all previous dates on all of those factors.
0:12:25 And you’re always going to find something that is less good, at least one factor that is less good than someone you date previously.
0:12:33 And I’ve always wondered, are you like accidentally expanding your comparison set by meeting more and more and more and more and more people?
0:12:46 So I think this reads to Barry Schwartz’s work with the paradox of choice, where Barry Schwartz did with the paradox of choice, which is brilliant, is that when we’re presented with more options,
0:12:58 which is in essence all of these dates, when we choose one, we have a less level of satisfaction with the choice because we saw that we had a hundred choices.
0:13:06 Versus if you have three choices and you have to choose between one of those three, there’s going to be a higher level of satisfaction.
0:13:10 As a result, a real life example is my grandmother.
0:13:15 So my grandmother grew up in, I say, the bush in the bush in Jamaica.
0:13:18 Super, super small town in Jamaica.
0:13:23 My grandmother literally had five or six options as a partner.
0:13:37 Now, as a result of my grandmother having those options, when she chooses one person, there’s going to be more value, more emphasis, even more if you look at the investment theory, more investment placed in one of those options.
0:13:48 Versus if she had a hundred options and she makes a choice, that choice with a hundred options becomes more disposable.
0:13:55 So this is one issue that we have in terms of giving ourselves so many options.
0:14:01 The other challenge with this is when you watch people date, they typically date the same person.
0:14:09 It’s typically the same characteristics, even physically the same.
0:14:26 I argue that some of the greatest value that we can receive in the dating market, if you want to look at it as a dating market, is to take ourselves out of our market, if you will, and put yourself in some place different.
0:14:28 I call this the premium effect.
0:14:39 So an example of this is I had a friend who was a white woman, roughly 35 years old, who lived in Northern London.
0:14:44 And she was like, “Paul, I’m dating all these guys. I can’t find the right one.”
0:14:47 I said, “Look, you love art, don’t you?”
0:14:48 She said, “Yeah, I love art.”
0:14:54 I said, “All right, I want you to take yourself down to the Black Cultural Archives in Brixton.
0:14:59 And I want you to go to this exhibit that they’re having.”
0:15:01 And she was like, “Brixton?”
0:15:05 I said, “Yeah, Brixton is cool. I go there all the time.”
0:15:07 I want you to go there.
0:15:09 Now, why did I ask her to go?
0:15:16 I asked her to go because the moment that she goes, characteristically, she’s not going to look the same.
0:15:23 These are mostly going to be Black men and women, perhaps even a little bit younger than she is.
0:15:27 Different, culturally, right?
0:15:34 But yet, they have the same value in art and their appreciation for creativity, et cetera.
0:15:37 The moment that she goes there, what happens?
0:15:42 Some people in the room look at her like, “What’s she doing here? Why is she here?”
0:15:45 Those are the closed-minded people.
0:15:47 Carol DeWick talks about this in her book Mindset.
0:15:49 We have closed-minded, open-minded.
0:15:51 Those are the closed-minded.
0:15:55 But how do the open-minded react to my friend?
0:15:57 They lean in.
0:15:59 “What are you doing here?”
0:16:01 And they’re curious and they engage.
0:16:08 And all of a sudden, she opens her network to a whole new group of people.
0:16:10 Some of those could be romantic interests.
0:16:13 Some of those could be platonic. They could be friends.
0:16:17 So when we’re dating, the serial daters especially, the 100 people,
0:16:24 it’s important for you to step outside of your sphere, if you will.
0:16:26 I want to pick up on something there.
0:16:29 You said that white woman went into a black space.
0:16:32 And in that black space, she would be considered a premium
0:16:36 because basically, her characteristics make her rare, right?
0:16:39 I was just doing some research then, and it says that studies and surveys indicate
0:16:42 that ethnic minorities, particularly Asian men and black women,
0:16:46 often face unique challenges in dating in both the UK and the US.
0:16:49 And these challenges stem from a combination of social stereotypes,
0:16:53 cultural biases, and the preference expressed on dating platforms.
0:16:56 And the reason I’m asking this question is it’s not a lived experience.
0:17:00 I have because I’m not an Asian man, although sometimes people think I am.
0:17:03 There are a group of people where I don’t have a shared lived experience
0:17:06 who are struggling in ways in the Western world
0:17:08 that maybe mean you don’t understand.
0:17:12 Yeah, definitely.
0:17:21 You know, we have to understand that we exist in a highly racist society.
0:17:25 And a lot of people don’t like to acknowledge it, don’t like to talk about it,
0:17:27 like to sweep it under the rug.
0:17:33 But when it comes to dating, it shows up, like in this statistic that you’re talking about.
0:17:35 Now, let’s think about this.
0:17:44 If you are someone who is not black and you are interested in a partner,
0:17:48 and you’ve had no experiences with black people,
0:17:52 other than maybe watching some black people on television,
0:17:57 and your parents in your community have said all kinds of crazy things about black people,
0:18:02 and you have all types of negative belief structures around black people,
0:18:05 and then you’re a man, you’re, say, a white man,
0:18:07 and you’re presented with a black woman on a dating app,
0:18:09 are you going to swipe on this person now?
0:18:13 You’re not because you don’t understand how incredible she is,
0:18:18 how smart she is, how beautiful she is.
0:18:20 You don’t, you have no appreciation.
0:18:24 So the reason why they’re not swiping is their ignorance.
0:18:26 That’s what it is.
0:18:31 And this is the reason why one of the most important things we can do,
0:18:35 is widen our social groups.
0:18:37 This is the most important thing.
0:18:40 I mean, it positively impacts our romantic relationships.
0:18:43 It positively impacts our life.
0:18:48 Is that we need to have a diverse set of people that we interact with,
0:18:56 and truly understand how beautiful, how beautiful people who are different than us actually are.
0:18:58 Is there a bit of a systemic issue here as well?
0:19:02 Because when I was thinking about your grandmother growing up in that village in Jamaica that you referenced,
0:19:09 she would spend a lot of time, because of the nature of how she would meet that person in the village,
0:19:15 that other man in the village, getting to know him beyond his surface level appearance.
0:19:18 So if he lived across the street, she would interact with him, see his behaviour.
0:19:23 He might have long fingernails, you know, but she gets to learn that he’s a kind, generous person,
0:19:27 and he’s got a good sense of humour, so she can look past the velcro wallet and the long fingernails.
0:19:32 But in the way that we’ve designed dating in the modern world, where most people now, I believe,
0:19:36 are meeting online in some form, whether it’s social media or other,
0:19:39 we’re actually purely judging someone in the fingernails.
0:19:43 We make a decision in a couple of seconds whether this person is compatible or not,
0:19:46 and obviously that’s not possible.
0:19:56 And I just feel this real strong sense of dissatisfaction, frustration,
0:20:03 and desperation from people at the moment as it relates to finding someone.
0:20:08 And I just think the systems that we’ve built, social networking, the screens,
0:20:13 have only exacerbated this frustration and desperation.
0:20:18 My question, which is somewhat linked to this, is really around the old ways of doing things,
0:20:23 like you were talking about your grandmother, and I was really curious about one subject in particular,
0:20:26 and wondered if you had any data on this, which is arranged marriages.
0:20:27 Yes.
0:20:28 Yes.
0:20:35 Are arranged marriages as successful as the relationships we form today
0:20:39 via social media screens, et cetera, et cetera?
0:20:43 Because, you know, back in the day, we were kind of put together with somebody
0:20:46 based on, I don’t know, family or economic reasons.
0:20:48 Did those marriages succeed?
0:20:56 Many of us don’t want to acknowledge how successful arranged marriages actually have been
0:20:58 and continue to be.
0:20:59 Really?
0:21:00 Continue to be.
0:21:02 But we have to look at the why, right?
0:21:05 Now, when people hear this, they immediately say,
0:21:10 “Oh, well, what about all the abuse and the dissatisfaction that happens in these relationships?”
0:21:12 Does it happen?
0:21:13 Absolutely.
0:21:19 But it also happens in non-arranged marriages at significantly high rates.
0:21:22 So why are arranged marriages so successful?
0:21:29 To some researchers, they have a higher level of satisfaction than non-arranged marriages.
0:21:30 And here’s the reason why.
0:21:39 The reason why is because you have families coming together and negotiating and determining
0:21:44 whether or not this particular person fits within their family structure.
0:21:45 And what does that mean?
0:21:50 That means that you have literally a mother, a father, a grandmother, a grandfather,
0:21:56 a brother, a sister who come together and they discuss and debate the characteristics.
0:22:02 They discuss and debate whether or not this person is an upstanding human being.
0:22:05 You know, is this person open-minded?
0:22:07 Is this person going to be resourceful?
0:22:08 Right?
0:22:09 Is this person resilient?
0:22:11 They debate these characteristics.
0:22:16 And the reason why it’s so beneficial is because the person getting married is not involved
0:22:19 and they’re not involved because they would be entirely biased.
0:22:23 What happens today is incredibly dangerous.
0:22:29 What happens today is when we meet someone, we typically do not involve any friends and family.
0:22:34 We are already infatuated with the person, so we’re obsessed with them.
0:22:40 That’s where we can’t even determine whether or not they have any of the traits that we want.
0:22:45 We are living through our own trauma and we’re not even selecting them.
0:22:47 Typically, they are selecting us.
0:22:55 So we end up sliding, if you will, into a relationship that was never right for us to begin with.
0:23:08 Whereas in arranged marriages, you have a true debate happening around whether or not someone will fit within the life of that individual.
0:23:11 Another example is why my wife and I are a matchmaking agency.
0:23:17 We pioneered something that had never been done, at least to our knowledge in matchmaking.
0:23:28 Stephen, if you were a client of ours, you would be the perfect client at that time because we had many men who were incredibly successful professionally
0:23:35 and felt as if, “Okay, what I’m missing is I’m missing love. I’m missing partnership.”
0:23:40 So if you came to us as a client, instead of me saying, “All right, Stephen, tell me what you want.”
0:23:48 And you give me this long list. I know you’d give me a list of like 150 things that you want.
0:23:54 Instead, I would say, “No, no, you go sit over there. I’m not even going to talk to you.”
0:24:00 Instead, let me talk to your brother. Let me talk to your co-workers.
0:24:04 Let me talk to your exes. Yes, let me talk to your exes.
0:24:12 Let me get a 360 perspective of who you are from the people who you are closest to.
0:24:19 And I would then build out a profile based on the consensus of what they’re telling me.
0:24:25 This is so true. One of my best friends in the world has struggled with a few of my best friends.
0:24:28 But there’s two I’m thinking about in particular, but one I really want to focus on.
0:24:35 He’s struggled in relationships for the last, I’d say, 15 years. And every single time he gets in a relationship as his friend,
0:24:38 I go, “That’s not it. That’s not it. That’s not it.”
0:24:41 And every single time he gets with somebody else, I go, “That’s not it either.”
0:24:48 And after this last relationship failed, I sat with him and I’m trying not to like, you know, intervene too much.
0:24:53 But I said, “Bro, I will know. I feel like the same way that he knew when I’d found the right one,
0:24:58 and if I was to dump my current partner, he would literally reverse the decision.”
0:25:04 He would write an executive order to reverse the decision because he knows that person is exactly what was right for me.
0:25:07 In the same way, I could literally draw a picture.
0:25:16 I could tell you the occupation, the age of the right person for him based on knowing him and him being my best friend for 10, 15 years.
0:25:21 But for some reason, he goes for everything opposite than that.
0:25:28 And I’ve always wondered this. I’ve always wondered, like, should we be picking our friends’ partners for them?
0:25:36 No. If, as a society, we went back to our nearest and dearest family and social circle,
0:25:41 and I want to emphasize the people who we truly love because, like, not all families family.
0:25:50 So if we had that circle making the decision for us, we would have much higher satisfaction rates in marriages
0:25:54 without question or much higher satisfaction rates in partnerships.
0:25:57 It’s because of precisely what you said.
0:26:04 Three in a study here, it says a 2012 study published in the Journal of Comparative Family Studies found that couples in arranged marriages
0:26:12 in collectivist cultures reported similar or higher levels of satisfaction over the long term compared to those in love marriages.
0:26:23 Yes. Yes. Go back. Eli Finkel, 80% of our marriages have a lower level of satisfaction today than any point in history.
0:26:29 And you think about, even what we were, you think about the emphasis that we place on the individual.
0:26:41 This is something that needs to really be emphasized because the more that we require our partner to deliver everything to us,
0:26:45 the higher their bar becomes, the expectation.
0:26:50 And the moment that they’re not meeting that expectation, we’re not satisfied.
0:26:57 Now, they could be delivering on nine out of 10 things, but because our expectation is 10, we have low satisfaction
0:27:02 because ultimately that’s what satisfaction is, is satisfaction is really based on our expectation.
0:27:03 So what do we do about that?
0:27:09 Because a lot of people will be able to relate to this idea that their partner is multiple things in their life
0:27:22 or that they feel like they are expected to be their partners, therapist, maybe financier, best friend, sports buddy
0:27:27 on the weekend to play paddle with, I don’t know, life coach, etc.
0:27:30 Some people will feel that pressure while they’re also trying to run their own life.
0:27:34 What you do about it because you can’t come home and say, babe, listen, it’s over.
0:27:38 I’m only going to be your boyfriend from now on.
0:27:43 A lot of people won’t like this, but we have to lower our expectation of our partners.
0:27:44 We really do.
0:27:54 And what I mean by this is, first, we have to begin with determining what do we want out of our partnership?
0:28:01 Because if we go back, and we don’t have to go back thousands of years, we can literally go back to my grandparents.
0:28:06 The decisions, we’re not, am I going to get all 10 things from my partner?
0:28:09 It is three of the 10 things.
0:28:12 And I’ll be satisfied with the three of the 10 things.
0:28:13 Why?
0:28:16 Because I have a full community that I can go to.
0:28:26 Friends, coworkers, colleagues, people who, you know, in my running club that I can go to for other facets of my life.
0:28:29 Confidence, intellectual stimulation, whatever it may be.
0:28:31 So that’s where it begins.
0:28:34 What do you want from your marriage?
0:28:42 Then the next step becomes, all right, are you then prepared to do the work required to sustain that relationship?
0:28:52 You know, the Gottmans, who I know you’ve had on the podcast and are really the foremost experts in the world around couples therapy, right?
0:28:53 John and Julie Gottman.
0:29:02 They said something to me that was profound when I was talking to them, and that is, we’re all compatible with each other.
0:29:03 And let that sit in for a second.
0:29:05 It’s like, OK, what does that really mean?
0:29:15 What it means is that if I were to drop you with another human being on a desolate island and say, that’s it.
0:29:22 It’s just the two of you for the rest of your lives, you were going to form a very strong emotional bond.
0:29:26 Chance there, you’re going to form a very strong physical and sexual bond, right?
0:29:34 Why? Because you are required, there’s no other outlet, but to make it work with them.
0:29:36 Look at today.
0:29:38 We don’t feel like we have to make it work.
0:29:40 There’s countless options.
0:29:42 We can just leave, right?
0:29:52 And so this notion that we are compatible with everyone I think is profound, because what it means is that you can get through that.
0:29:57 You can increase your satisfaction by putting in the work.
0:29:59 I can totally relate to that.
0:30:04 I remember working in a call center once upon a time and I was broke and lonely.
0:30:09 And as I worked in this call center, it was late rooms call center in Cheetah Mill in Manchester.
0:30:13 I basically fell in love with the girl sat next to me in the call center.
0:30:16 Now, listen, I’ve seen her since.
0:30:20 I think 10 years later she came to one of my meeting greets, which is called Rosie.
0:30:23 She’s probably the first time she realizes that I fell in love with her.
0:30:29 But in the context of there not being many options and me being a guy that basically had no other options.
0:30:31 I wasn’t going out to nightclubs, I couldn’t afford it.
0:30:37 I just fell in love with someone who was in close proximity and I just was really, really into her.
0:30:43 And it shocked me because objectively speaking, had I written down what my type was at that period of my life.
0:30:50 I wouldn’t have written that, but just because we were held in close proximity for long enough, I found the attraction.
0:30:52 The attraction came to be.
0:30:54 Unfortunately, that’s not the world we live in.
0:31:01 And in fact, one of my friends who’s struggling the most in relationships, her job is literally to meet people.
0:31:05 That’s like the base premise of her job and she can’t find anyone.
0:31:10 And I think part of what I’m seeing there is what we’ve described with having too many options.
0:31:12 But what does someone do about that?
0:31:20 What’s the actionable thing to do if you live in the modern world and you’re struggling to find somebody,
0:31:25 even though you realize that if you were held in a room with five total strangers, you’d probably fall in love with one of them.
0:31:27 Yeah, it’s tough, right?
0:31:30 But it always begins with self and self-awareness.
0:31:35 And I would literally start at, well, what is my attachment?
0:31:38 That will inform an incredible amount.
0:31:42 If she goes back and does the work and realizes that she is avoidant,
0:31:48 that will begin to fill in the gaps as to why maybe she’s been emotionally distant relationships,
0:31:51 why she feels like she doesn’t need anyone,
0:31:56 why people need to jump an even higher bar to be in a relationship with her.
0:32:02 Start with your attachment and realize that if you are avoidant or you are anxious,
0:32:05 you can earn a secure attachment.
0:32:08 And there’s work that’s involved, but you can do that.
0:32:10 And by the way, you can do that without a therapist.
0:32:14 It’s always advisable to go with therapists, but let’s face it.
0:32:19 The wait times for therapists, the cost for therapists, they’re not —
0:32:24 and also the number of therapists on a per capita basis is decreasing.
0:32:30 So they’re not as accessible as often we make it at the mount to see.
0:32:33 So that’s one is you want to start with self.
0:32:34 That’s one.
0:32:40 Secondly is really get grounded on the type of relationship that you want.
0:32:45 And the reason why this is important is because therefore you can make it clear
0:32:49 what your boundaries are when you begin to engage with people.
0:32:54 Because I always say that if you don’t assert your boundaries,
0:32:58 you can take well-intentioned people and turn them into bullies
0:33:01 just as a result of not asserting your boundaries.
0:33:05 So in order to know your — in order to assert your boundaries, you have to know your boundaries.
0:33:09 So that’s the second piece is beginning to know, okay, what do I want?
0:33:10 What do I want?
0:33:16 For example, there are hundreds of variations of relationships that you could have today.
0:33:18 My grandmother, right?
0:33:19 There was one.
0:33:24 It was committed relationship — committed marriage until you die.
0:33:25 That was it.
0:33:27 Now you don’t have to be married.
0:33:31 You could live apart, but be together, see each other on weekends.
0:33:32 You can decide.
0:33:35 I want — we don’t want to have children.
0:33:36 You can decide.
0:33:38 There are hundreds of variations.
0:33:42 Be very clear on what you were — what you want.
0:33:49 And when I say assert your boundaries is assert what you are interested in right from the beginning.
0:33:52 These three steps are incredibly important.
0:33:55 I want to talk about the different variations of relationships
0:33:59 and a lot of the sort of myths that keep us held in.
0:34:02 The sort of modern idea of what a relationship looks like.
0:34:03 Okay.
0:34:08 But you said something there, which I — which sparked a thought that I had read in your book.
0:34:10 When you said till death do us part.
0:34:11 Yes.
0:34:19 I read about this study that says that cancer research on heterosexual couples found that if a man becomes terminally ill
0:34:24 and his wife becomes the caretaker, there is a 2.9% separation rate.
0:34:31 If the woman is terminally ill and their male partner becomes the caretaker, they leave at a 21% rate,
0:34:39 which basically means that men are approximately 624% more likely to separate from a woman if the woman gets sick.
0:34:40 Yes.
0:34:44 And that was on page 48 of your new book, Keep Love.
0:34:45 Yes.
0:34:46 What the fuck is going on there?
0:34:48 That is alarming, shocking.
0:34:50 And it was so alarming, shocking.
0:34:53 I had to include the study in the book.
0:34:58 For me — and I wrote this in the chapter around love is conditional.
0:35:04 And we have to understand that the myth that presents itself is that love is unconditional.
0:35:09 It is, you know, if you find the right person, there’s no conditions.
0:35:11 That could be true with your children, right?
0:35:20 Your child could go do something heinous, and I believe there could or would still be love for them.
0:35:23 But that’s not the case with our partners.
0:35:30 And for us to be aware that there are conditions when we go into these relationships, that’s the most important.
0:35:36 It’s almost a warning sign in particular to women in that chapter to say there are conditions.
0:35:45 And unfortunately, when people have gone through and interviewed these men who have left the women on their deathbed,
0:35:50 and even the women — because it’s 2.9% of women leave men — even the women who have left the men,
0:35:56 what they will say is that they’re no longer getting — fill in the blank.
0:35:58 They’re no longer getting the emotional intimacy.
0:36:00 They’re no longer getting the physical intimacy.
0:36:03 They’re no longer getting the, you know, you fill in the blank.
0:36:10 And as a result of no longer getting this thing, and the thing is the condition, they’re out.
0:36:12 So why men, though?
0:36:17 Over 600% more likely to leave a terminally old partner than women are.
0:36:28 You know, there’s a disproportionate amount of the relationship that’s placed on the physical side of the relationship, right?
0:36:29 Sex.
0:36:30 Sex.
0:36:31 Yeah.
0:36:33 You’re like, “Paul, say what it is.”
0:36:34 It’s actually what it is.
0:36:36 Well, it’s not all about sex, right?
0:36:37 It’s not all about sex.
0:36:45 But what it typically means is that there is a low level of satisfaction in the relationship.
0:36:53 And as a result of there being a low level of satisfaction, and the low level of satisfaction could come from not having enough sex or not having the sex that they like.
0:36:57 It could be from, you know, there’s no respect.
0:37:00 They don’t feel like there’s equity in the relationship, whatever it may be.
0:37:12 But because there’s already a low level of satisfaction, when they go into a place where the partner is terminally ill, they’re more ready to leave, right?
0:37:14 This is normally what you see.
0:37:27 What you see happen when you see a partner leave another partner, where you see infidelity happening, is you see that there was already a low level of satisfaction.
0:37:37 The level of satisfaction in the relationships not only dictate the survivability of the relationship, it dictates the survivability of us.
0:37:39 There was a study done.
0:37:43 James Coyne, this one blew my mind.
0:37:51 He pulled 200 patients who had congenital heart disease, right?
0:37:56 So not terminally ill, but as close as you get to terminally ill.
0:38:07 And he was able to look at the 200 and he broke down the group based on those who have a high level of satisfaction and those who have a low level of satisfaction in their relationship.
0:38:16 Two years later, the couples who had a high level of satisfaction, the person in that partnership who had congenital heart failure, you know what?
0:38:18 They died about 11% of the time.
0:38:21 So 11% they died.
0:38:30 But those who had a low level of satisfaction, two years later, 45% of them had died.
0:38:41 Think about that. A little greater than three times the likelihood of death because of the low level of satisfaction in the relationship.
0:38:44 So the satisfaction in the relationship is the key.
0:38:55 And this is part of what I’ve been trying to drive in this book and a lot of my messaging is that we place too much value on longevity.
0:38:57 It’s ridiculous.
0:39:02 I sit down for interviews, typically the top, and thank you for not asking me this.
0:39:10 Typically the first two or third question is, Paul, so you’ve been married for how long?
0:39:12 How long have you been married?
0:39:13 How long have you been married?
0:39:21 And the idea is that because I’ve been married for 23 plus years that I’m successful in my marriage.
0:39:22 It’s ridiculous.
0:39:23 It’s ridiculous.
0:39:28 The question should be how satisfied are you in your marriage or in your partnership?
0:39:35 And so we can’t, we have to stop putting emphasis on the longevity and really focus on the satisfaction.
0:39:37 How satisfied are you in your marriage?
0:39:38 Stephen.
0:39:47 This is, I hate you for asking this question.
0:39:48 No, no.
0:39:49 I am.
0:39:50 So the reason why I have a heart.
0:39:54 It’s about your wife and we got her answer before so we’ll just keep her.
0:39:56 Yeah, you tell me what she said first.
0:40:00 Are you sure you want to know on air?
0:40:07 What, the reason why I hate trying to answer a question like this is because so many people say, oh, I don’t believe, I don’t believe in discussing.
0:40:12 Truly hand on my heart word to my children.
0:40:22 I have the highest level of satisfaction with Jill, you know, with my best friend today than ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever.
0:40:29 And I think the reason for this is because of the enormous amount of work that we put in.
0:40:37 You know, a lot of people don’t realize is that when I read a stat, Jill is typically right next to me.
0:40:46 Last night, literally last night, we’re in the bed and we are talking about the history of marriage.
0:40:52 And we’re debating Clovis, the first of Frank’s and how he made an impact on relationships.
0:40:57 We’re always discussing these topics.
0:41:02 And as a result of having the conversation around these topics, it helps us to be open.
0:41:04 It helps us to dialogue.
0:41:05 It helps us to debate.
0:41:07 It helps us to have doubt.
0:41:10 It helps us to have trust and autonomy.
0:41:21 And therefore it helps us to have this strong level of communication and emotional intimacy that then feeds into all aspects of our life, into our sex life.
0:41:28 Into our ability to parent, our children, into our work.
0:41:32 All of this feeds from having this strong connection.
0:41:35 So the satisfaction is sky high.
0:41:42 And this is a topic that is funny because I was like, hmm, I know Stephen does the research, so he could have asked Jill.
0:41:45 I am very confident Jill would say the same.
0:41:50 The reason why is because we always check in with each other.
0:41:53 We’re always like, how are you feeling right now?
0:41:54 Right.
0:41:57 Do we feel like we’re going in the right direction?
0:42:00 You know, when I think about, do you have strong satisfaction in your relationship?
0:42:05 The questions that always come to mind is, do you feel safe with your partner?
0:42:06 Do you feel safe?
0:42:10 Do you feel like you can express your true vulnerability to them?
0:42:11 Right.
0:42:12 That’s one.
0:42:14 Secondly is do you feel respected?
0:42:17 You know, with John Gottman’s research, number one.
0:42:25 You know, he saw he could predict divorce at 99 plus percent or 90 plus percent because of contempt or disrespect in the relationship.
0:42:27 So do you feel like you have respect?
0:42:29 Another one.
0:42:33 Are you optimistic about where the relationship is going?
0:42:39 Which suggests how much effort and work your partner is placing in the relationship.
0:42:47 So many of us are hopeless about the future is because we know our partner’s not doing anything to further the relationship.
0:42:50 So are you nurturing the relationship?
0:42:57 Many of us are quick to focus on self-love now and nurturing ourselves.
0:43:02 But the question is how much nurture are you giving to the relationship?
0:43:04 Because that’s a separate entity.
0:43:12 You talking there about sort of the pillow talk with Jill about relationships and constantly it being part of the conversation in your household.
0:43:19 One of the things that I was pondering as you said that is, should we spend more time talking about the relationship with our partner?
0:43:25 Because if I think about the relationship I’m in now, we spend a lot of time talking about the relationship.
0:43:29 Whereas in previous relationships, it was kind of the elephant in the room all the time.
0:43:38 So we never really had an opportunity or a forum to ask those questions about unmet needs or are you happy etc etc.
0:43:49 And I just think that probably the missing piece for a lot of people in relationships is they just don’t have a space in their week where they sit and talk about the relationship itself.
0:44:00 So yes, should we be speaking more absolutely? Would it save many partnerships? Absolutely. Would it increase the satisfaction? Absolutely.
0:44:05 Do we not have enough time? I would say this becomes our cop-out.
0:44:07 We’re so busy with life.
0:44:16 Think about this. I’m so busy with life that I can’t give the person that I plan to spend the rest of my life with time.
0:44:24 We have to prioritize our relationship with our partner. We have to prioritize this.
0:44:33 We have to figure out when we can build in time to talk and we have to actually talk about the real things.
0:44:41 I’m willing to bet that most men don’t even realize, especially in heterosexual relationships, heteronormative relationships,
0:44:47 most men don’t even realize that their partner doesn’t even orgasm when they have sex.
0:44:57 You look at the orgasm gap and you say, “Oh my God, you have men orgasming at 95% and women at roughly 65%,
0:45:00 maybe a little bit higher in these committed relationships.”
0:45:06 That means that there’s a significant percentage that never orgasms and I bet you their partner has no idea.
0:45:11 No idea. Why? Because there hasn’t been a conversation around it.
0:45:18 Now, the issue is a two-way street. It’s not only the man’s issue that he needs to be aware and have the conversation,
0:45:23 but she also needs to be able to tell him. But you know why she probably doesn’t tell him?
0:45:27 Because she doesn’t want to hurt his feelings.
0:45:35 She’s not been having an orgasm for the last 10 years, so she feels like if she brings it up now, it’s going to be detrimental to the relationship.
0:45:41 So she’s trying to protect him or she’s embarrassed or whatever it may be.
0:45:46 He is completely oblivious and unaware and they never talk about their sex life.
0:45:50 A matter of fact, their sex life is a script, which is typically most people’s sex life.
0:45:58 It’s just a script. It’s two or three moves that are done, man orgasms, women doesn’t. That’s it.
0:46:04 Think of how powerful it would be if they could just simply have dialogue and discussion.
0:46:10 It’s hard to start that behaviour though. I imagine in your relationship with Jill, you guys are pretty advanced, right?
0:46:14 So if you’re level one, what’s level one in karate? Is it like a white belt?
0:46:15 Oh yeah, white belt.
0:46:20 If you’re like a white belt in this stuff, where there’s been 10 years you and your partner just really don’t talk about these things.
0:46:24 It’s kind of always been the elephant in the room. Loads of words have been unsaid.
0:46:29 What would you suggest as like a good starting point to get the ball rolling in this direction?
0:46:41 Alright, I like this. So baby steps. So in the book, I talk about how we have to normalise the fact that we will be attracted to people other than our partner.
0:46:48 No one wants to talk about that. No one wants to talk about, you know, it’s just my partner. That’s it. I’m not looking at anyone else, right?
0:46:49 Are you attracted to other people?
0:46:51 Oh my, Steven, come on man. Are you?
0:47:08 Absolutely, absolutely. And not only that, and there are different forms of attraction. You know, there’s physical, there’s sexual attraction, there’s emotional attraction.
0:47:16 But to your question of what do you do if you’re level one in your relationship is you start with these baby steps.
0:47:30 So Jill and myself, we had to start around this topic of attraction because I had a very hard time just thinking about my wife being attracted to someone else.
0:47:40 I couldn’t fathom it, the jealousy, the anxiety, the anxiousness. I have an anxious attachment style. So it just, it was just fear, right?
0:47:52 And there are many different things that you can do, but I’ll give two. One is that you just have to normalise that these behaviors are a part of our human experience.
0:48:02 Well, all have physical attraction. Some of us will have sexual attraction. Some of us will have emotional attraction to people who are not our partners.
0:48:12 If anyone denies it, they are lying, okay? This is one. We have to normalise this. We normalise it, then we begin having conversations around it.
0:48:23 So what my wife and I did around this, and she will hate me for saying this, but I wrote this in the book, so it’s cool, is we started talking about celebrities.
0:48:40 Easy, low level way. People who are arm length distance. Who do you find attractive, blah, blah, blah. I saw that my wife, as does I think 99.999% of women and men, loves Idris Elba.
0:48:50 She’s like, Idris is it. To the point where I was like, will you leave me for, I think she will leave me for Idris Elba. It’s like, she will definitely leave me for this man.
0:49:08 But we begin having conversations around it. It becomes a bit of a joke, right? It is embedded in our, in the normalisation of it, and then I begin to do what I call taking my thoughts to court.
0:49:17 Take your thoughts to court, right? Whereas I would identify, okay, what is the issue? What’s the emotion?
0:49:27 It’s actually fear. If Jill’s talking about someone else, she was with, it was fear. But then I, then I, then I draw on that fear. What am I in fear of?
0:49:42 I’m in fear of her, of her leaving me. She’s just going to leave me, right? But then take that thought to court. What are the facts that can, that, that, what are the facts that I have to support or discredit those feelings?
0:49:51 Well, I’ve been with Jill for 20 plus years, right? She has never, we have a high level of satisfaction. It’s normal to have attraction, right?
0:50:10 So you take your thoughts to court, and then you can begin to recalibrate your perspective on the thing. So it gets to the point where do you know that every anniversary Jill gets the biggest bouquet of flowers from Idris Elba?
0:50:25 I write, love Idris Elba. So I’m writing this. So I’ve now, it’s now, it’s moved to a point where I couldn’t even stand this idea to now it’s, it’s so normalized.
0:50:33 It’s jokes about it. So, so it’s very important for us to normalize, have these conversations, take our thoughts to court.
0:50:43 And if we are, and we have to realize this, and I wrote about this in the book, is that it is also healthy to have doubts about your relationship.
0:50:53 We’re told that if you’re in the greatest relationship, if you found your soulmate, you should never have doubts. Myth, myth, right?
0:51:08 It’s healthy to have doubts, but there are healthy doubts. There’s unhealthy doubts. If it is a doubt that is about the growth of your relationship, that’s healthy to express that.
0:51:28 If it is a doubt that is predicated in your own fear or your anxieties or your traumas, that’s unhealthy. So to know that informs, you know, how Jill and I have tackled that idea of let’s normalize the conversation.
0:51:33 Is this a healthy doubt? It is. Let’s build this into our relationship.
0:51:42 So, Jill, so I know Jill adores Ija Selba, and she knows I will leave her for a Beyonce.
0:51:44 Yeah, I mean, that’s fair.
0:51:53 Yeah, I just, I can just imagine that I’ve got a certain type of listener who is more, how would you word it?
0:52:08 Advanced in terms of the like belt, you know, when I talked about white belts and black belts, more advanced in their curiosity, their intrigue, their willingness to like develop and evolve in the relationship.
0:52:17 I would bet, and this is stereotyping, I understand, that it’s typically women more than men that are like more open minded to like learn to grow to deepen the bond.
0:52:23 I think it’s typically women more than men. I would hazard a guess that it’s more women buying your books than men.
0:52:24 Yes.
0:52:34 And I would hazard a guess that when I make conversations about love and relationship, it’s typically not always because I can kind of see the numbers, but typically more women that are trying to learn to deepen their relationships.
0:52:41 So I imagine there’s a certain person in my audience that sat there thinking, I want to do this, I want to have these conversations with my partner.
0:52:45 I want to take down some of these walls and start talking about the lack of orgasms I’ve had in the last couple of years.
0:52:53 I want to talk about X, Y and Z, but I know if I bring this conversation up to Dave, Dave’s going to like think I’m weird.
0:53:04 He’s going to like roll his eyes and like put the football back on and I feel a sense of dissatisfaction in this relationship, but because we just don’t have a bridge of communication, I feel like I’m faced with a choice now.
0:53:13 Do I just leave this guy or do I just stick, tolerate it and put up with this and that like first step to bridging the gap.
0:53:19 What is it? Do I turn the football off and scream at him? Do I send him the link to this podcast? I think that’s probably the best option.
0:53:26 I think it’s just keep sharing the podcast. I think sharing the podcast with everyone you know, I think is probably the, I’m joking.
0:53:29 No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.
0:53:31 Because I’m offered.
0:53:35 I was like, this is it, but…
0:53:37 I thought he was really pushing this one.
0:53:39 He said it five times.
0:53:42 I had the link.
0:53:45 Truly, this is the first step.
0:53:48 So say it’s Lottie and Dave.
0:53:49 Yeah.
0:53:58 Okay. Lottie’s listening to us right now and she wants to deepen her emotional connection with her partner Dave. What does she do?
0:54:06 She sends Dave a link to this podcast and she says, let’s listen to this together.
0:54:08 Let’s have a date night. Let’s listen to this together.
0:54:11 And let’s just talk about what’s happening.
0:54:16 You know what I’ve noticed with one of the shows that I co-host, Married at First Sight UK?
0:54:21 What I’m so proud about is I’m stopped all the time by men.
0:54:28 And they’ll say, Paul, I watch your show with my partner.
0:54:31 And our kids watch it as well.
0:54:33 And we debate what you’re saying.
0:54:37 And sometimes we disagree with you, but sometimes we agree with you.
0:54:56 And I think this is what we need because just talking about it and having the conversation around it helps to contribute to awareness, which puts you on the path to developing skills, which then allows you to begin to heal.
0:54:58 And ultimately, that’s what therapy is.
0:55:00 Therapy is healing.
0:55:09 So having the dialogue based on this podcast, based on a book, based on a television show is truly not just a first step.
0:55:13 That’s a significant step towards your black belt.
0:55:16 I am thinking about the history of relationships.
0:55:24 I often wonder how many of the rules of relationships that we’ve been handed by society are now invalid or maybe when they’re valid.
0:55:34 So, you know, we have these sort of constructs of like marriage and monogamy and even like heterosexuality, all these things that have been passed to us through religion and through history.
0:55:43 I was looking at some stats about marriage and it says that in 2019, marriage rates for opposite sex couples fall to their lowest on record since 1862.
0:55:44 That’s in the UK.
0:55:49 And in the US, marriage rates have been declining since the early 1970s.
0:55:54 I’m not married, but I spend a lot of time thinking about whether I should be or not.
0:55:57 I actually had a conversation recently with my partner where I said, do you want to get married?
0:56:00 And it was abundantly clear that she does want to get married.
0:56:11 But then I asked why and really it seems like it was really just more for the wedding than for some kind of legal contract that we signed with the government.
0:56:21 So I’m really wondering, based on everything we know about history and the trade-offs of marriage, should I be getting married?
0:56:23 Yes, because your partner wants to.
0:56:25 Is that reason enough?
0:56:40 All right, so I think the institution of marriage, what you’re going to see, this is my prediction is that because nuclear families.
0:56:42 What do you mean by nuclear family?
0:56:44 Well, it’s interesting.
0:56:55 There’s different perspectives now on nuclear family, but I look at it as you have two partners and children, and that creates the nuclear family.
0:57:01 That becomes an economic unit which drives a society.
0:57:11 And as that has disappeared, there’s been less of a base to drive society per many researchers.
0:57:26 So as a result, what I believe is going to happen as we see right now in Singapore, as we see right now in China, as we see right now in Japan, you’re going to see government heavily involved in incentivizing marriage.
0:57:39 And marriage is already incentivized right now in terms of tax benefits, being able to leave assets to your partner or leave assets to family members.
0:57:49 So as a result of the decrease of marriage and decrease of nuclear families, you will see government step up even more to incentivize.
0:58:04 So you’re going to see all types of benefits being thrown at people to get married, especially as you not only see marriage rates decline, but as you also see birth rates declining as they are.
0:58:18 Now, your question around what should you do is that this is a question around values, and this is a question that I believe is very important to have early on.
0:58:24 Now, I was saying, you know, when you meet someone, you should lay out exactly what you want.
0:58:28 This is a very important question to have early, early on.
0:58:43 Now, in terms of where you are with your partner, I would say that if she is for, if she’s pro this, and you are indifferent, sounds like it feels like you’re indifferent, not anti, but indifferent.
0:58:48 Yeah, I think I’m, I’m somewhat agnostic to it.
0:58:53 However, I can call out a bunch of downsides to getting married.
0:58:54 Really? Like?
0:58:56 Well, again, I don’t know, because I’m not married.
0:58:58 So all the married people are like screaming at me.
0:58:59 I know this because they DM me.
0:59:06 They’ve been DMing me for many, many years since I started the Diary of a CEO, because in some of those early episodes, I was really like, not, I was really quite against it.
0:59:09 But over time, I’ve kind of developed my thinking here.
0:59:24 I just wonder, I can’t understand the first principles as to why having a like government or religious contract with somebody is going to increase the probability of success in the union of love.
0:59:27 There’s obviously the issue with the prenup situation.
0:59:29 I actually don’t have this concern with my partner.
0:59:33 So I think she’s, I think you’ve met, you’ve met, yeah.
0:59:34 Oh, yeah.
0:59:35 From a distance.
0:59:36 Yes, from a distance.
0:59:41 I don’t have a concern that she’s going to try and bankrupt me or that I might try and bankrupt her.
0:59:44 So that’s not really a concern.
0:59:48 The whole charade of like doing a massive wedding, I think is a little bit weird.
0:59:55 I think why can’t we just have lots of events over the next 50 years where we bring our friends and family versus like one.
0:59:58 I’ve also watched a couple of my friends at the moment who are getting married.
1:00:07 They’re like two years of pain and heartache and like cancelling date nights so that they can afford this one wedding day feels like highly logical to me.
1:00:15 We’ve got one particular friend who is having to cancel so much for their like everyday joy to save up for this one big event, which is stressing them both out.
1:00:20 And I don’t think they’re going to have, well, I don’t think he’s going to have a great time at the wedding anyway, because he seems so stressed by it all.
1:00:33 I just I sometimes hear that people can’t like get out of their marriage without having to like file a divorce thing with like the with through lawyers and going to court and battling out in court.
1:00:37 I just think you should be free to leave if you want to leave.
1:00:41 I don’t know. I just think this is a terrible analogy and completely unrelated.
1:00:52 But like in football, many of the problems we see with my favorite club Manchester United at the moment is we’ve got people on five year contracts who we just can’t get rid of.
1:00:56 And like they want to go, we want them to go because we signed these long contracts with them.
1:00:57 It’s like incredibly difficult.
1:01:05 And now these players are being like thrown in the back room and they’re not playing football and we’re like just completely ignoring them because we can’t get out the contract.
1:01:06 Yes.
1:01:07 So I don’t I just think.
1:01:08 Yeah, I hear you. I hear you.
1:01:09 All right. Can we talk about this?
1:01:10 Yes.
1:01:11 All right.
1:01:19 There are many secular marriages so you don’t have to do anything religious related.
1:01:26 And it sounds like a big difficulty that you have could be the number one is the wedding.
1:01:34 Because but the wedding to me, the premise of it is a public declaration of your love.
1:01:39 And to your point, it could be as small as you want, it could be as big as you want, you could have as many as you want.
1:01:40 Right.
1:01:43 That public declaration could happen 50 times over 50 years.
1:01:44 It is up to you.
1:01:51 So that is you and your partner navigating that space with regard to getting out of it.
1:01:57 This is the single biggest change that we need in marriages.
1:02:01 Marriages, in my opinion, should be much harder to get into.
1:02:06 You shouldn’t be able to like literally in your partner, go to Vegas, drive up.
1:02:12 So a drive through, you could have an Elvis Presley impersonator marry you.
1:02:16 You pay $25 and you’re married.
1:02:17 It’s ridiculous.
1:02:23 I think that there needs to be hurdles in place.
1:02:29 There needs to be some type of vetting, some type of premarital coaching counseling.
1:02:34 So everyone is aware of the commitment that is about to be made.
1:02:38 And you have the tools, you have skills around conflict management, et cetera.
1:02:40 It needs to be hard.
1:02:45 But then if you want out, you should be able to get out in an hour.
1:02:46 It should be easy.
1:02:50 Drive up Elvis Presley says it’s over $25.
1:02:51 Free.
1:02:52 Yeah.
1:02:53 Free, right?
1:02:54 That’s the way it should be.
1:02:58 But it is the reverse.
1:03:00 Now you’re right.
1:03:01 Marriage is hard to get out of.
1:03:02 That’s changing.
1:03:06 There’s now the introduction especially in the UK of the no fault, right?
1:03:09 But that still takes, it still could take six months or so.
1:03:11 There still is a lot of haggle.
1:03:16 So I agree with you there is that it should be much easier to get out.
1:03:25 But ultimately what marriage is, is marriage is a declaration of commitment done in a formal way.
1:03:28 Can you not do that without the marriage?
1:03:35 Can you not do a declaration of commitment without having to go to like a church or whatever else and sign documents and stuff?
1:03:36 I don’t know.
1:03:37 Is it not possible?
1:03:38 It is.
1:03:39 You know.
1:03:40 It is.
1:03:42 I think I just have commitment issues.
1:03:43 I think that’s probably what it is.
1:03:44 Yeah.
1:03:45 I think that’s at the core of it.
1:03:50 Because you know what’s so interesting to me is that you’re already going to, well, how do I get out of this?
1:03:51 Yeah.
1:04:00 And it almost feels as if there is a fear of committing to someone for the rest of your life.
1:04:01 Yeah.
1:04:03 Because that’s a massive, I mean, think about this.
1:04:08 You’re going to commit to someone for the rest of your life, for the rest of your days.
1:04:11 And what we feel, because I’ve been there, because when I…
1:04:13 I’m getting anxiety as you say it.
1:04:15 I’m like, “Fucking hell, the rest of my life.”
1:04:17 The rest of your life.
1:04:24 But think about this, the anxiety is the fear of what has not even come yet.
1:04:29 So that means that you can now interrogate your thoughts.
1:04:30 Okay.
1:04:33 You have fear over what?
1:04:35 What’s the fear?
1:04:40 But isn’t it just a terrible idea to commit to someone till death do you part?
1:04:45 Because like imagine if I said to you, you’ve got to pick a job and then you’ve got to do it forever.
1:04:46 Yes.
1:04:51 The amount of procrastination that would occur because of the significance of that decision
1:04:55 would basically stop you picking any job at all because you’d be like, “I’ve got to pick one and do it forever.”
1:04:58 And you’d become a perfectionist.
1:05:01 You’d be looking for perfection in every single job.
1:05:07 And maybe this is in part the issue is that because we see marriage as being such a final thing
1:05:11 that we really have to make sure the pick is perfect.
1:05:12 It’s perfect.
1:05:13 I agree.
1:05:14 This is one of the myths, right?
1:05:20 This whole notion of till death do us part, which really was handed to us in religion.
1:05:28 If you look through Christianity, Hinduism, even a lot of the modern day Islamic marriage ceremonies,
1:05:32 there’s some formation of you will be with this partner for the rest of your life.
1:05:37 And I think what that does is it actually sets us up for a lower level of satisfaction.
1:05:39 It sets us up for complacency.
1:05:41 Oh, this is all we get.
1:05:42 Instead–
1:05:43 They can’t leave me.
1:05:44 They can’t leave me.
1:05:46 So therefore, I don’t have to try as hard.
1:05:47 I don’t even have to talk to them now.
1:05:48 Yeah.
1:05:49 I don’t have to get to the gym.
1:05:50 No.
1:05:51 I can just sit here.
1:05:57 So that is a myth, though, because we know where divorce rates are, separation rates
1:05:58 are.
1:06:01 We know that there are– you can get a divorce.
1:06:02 So you can get out.
1:06:03 She can get out.
1:06:05 We have to put that to the side.
1:06:12 But the key is to think about when I was interrogate the fears is, well, what’s the upside?
1:06:16 What’s the upside of having a partner for life?
1:06:18 What would you say, upsides?
1:06:21 I mean, I could also name the upsides, I think.
1:06:28 So there’s a certain sense of stability and focus that comes when you know that home is
1:06:29 kind of locked down.
1:06:34 So as an entrepreneur in particular, I advise anybody that’s going to pursue a big, grueling,
1:06:38 tumultuous, uncertain challenge like building a business to have a partner at home.
1:06:40 And I know Sir Alex Ferguson was big on this.
1:06:43 When he was selecting players for Manchester United, he would often inquire about whether
1:06:44 they were in a relationship.
1:06:48 Because if they had a stable home life, then they would be much more focused on the training
1:06:49 ground.
1:06:50 And I see that with myself.
1:06:52 You need a stable base.
1:06:56 If you’re single, I think, as an entrepreneur, it can become an immense distraction.
1:06:57 An immense distraction.
1:06:59 Because on one hand, you’re trying to build something over here.
1:07:01 And you’re trying to build something over here.
1:07:07 I think marriage is useful as well, because when you know that it’s hard to get out of,
1:07:13 it means that exiting isn’t the path of least resistance, which means that you probably
1:07:14 will go to therapy first.
1:07:18 And you probably will see if you can fix it and figure it out versus just throwing it away.
1:07:19 Yes.
1:07:25 So it becomes less disposable, which means that you’re more likely to fight to fix the thing.
1:07:31 And what are the other upsides?
1:07:32 I mean, the stats, right?
1:07:38 So the stats around health and wealth all suggest that if you’re in a good, productive, healthy
1:07:39 relationship, you’re going to earn more money.
1:07:44 I think it’s 4% more a year in a productive marriage.
1:07:47 Both partners net earn 4% more a year.
1:07:51 And according to Robert Weldinger, who came on the show, you’re going to live longer.
1:07:52 So I get it.
1:07:53 And you’ll be healthier.
1:07:54 You’re going to be healthier.
1:07:55 Yes.
1:07:56 Less disease.
1:07:57 Good boy, Stephen.
1:07:59 Do you know what it is?
1:08:01 I’m not trying to throw the marriage out.
1:08:03 I’m wondering if there’s an alternative.
1:08:05 Do you know what it is part of me as well?
1:08:09 If you look at the way I’ve lived my life, I’ve always tried to test the system.
1:08:13 So school, like not going to school, dropping out of university, being an entrepreneur.
1:08:18 There’s always been a bit of a fuck you and me to the system and a real pause in questioning
1:08:22 what I’m being handed as the right answer to interrogate whether it’s still valid now.
1:08:23 Okay.
1:08:26 So like many of the answers I was given, you go to university, then you go get a job and
1:08:27 then you hand out your CV.
1:08:30 All of these things proved in my life to just be BS.
1:08:31 There was a better way.
1:08:36 So when I am approached with a conventional system like marriage, immediately I go, hmm,
1:08:38 let’s interrogate this thing.
1:08:39 Yeah.
1:08:41 And I would say I’m with you.
1:08:43 Throw the system out.
1:08:47 Think about just one thing and you said this and there’s research behind this.
1:08:49 It’s the investment model, right?
1:08:50 Theory.
1:08:58 So the more you invest in the preparation of your partnership, in the actual partnership,
1:09:03 the more that you’re investing time, resources, all resources, the higher satisfaction you
1:09:04 have.
1:09:06 That’s fact, right?
1:09:07 That’s research.
1:09:09 That’s in essence what you’re saying, right?
1:09:16 So that’s the way that I would approach it is how can I invest as much as I can in this
1:09:18 partnership with this person that I love?
1:09:23 What is it that predicts a successful marriage in your view?
1:09:26 Well, once again, what is success?
1:09:30 To me, success is high satisfaction.
1:09:35 High satisfaction has a strong correlation around well-being.
1:09:40 Dr. Carol Riff, I think, is the OG of well-being.
1:09:41 She doesn’t get enough credit.
1:09:46 She created a model called the Six Dimensions of Psychological Well-Being.
1:09:52 And in essence, if we are working to increase each one of these dimensions.
1:09:56 So for example, one is having a vision of your life.
1:09:58 What is that vision that you have for life?
1:10:03 And the question, though, is do you feel like you are actively in pursuit of that vision?
1:10:07 If you don’t feel like you know what your vision is or you’re not in pursuit of it,
1:10:09 you’re going to have lower well-being, right?
1:10:18 So the higher well-being that you have individually, the higher satisfaction you have in your relationship,
1:10:20 the more successful your relationship is.
1:10:26 Are there like fundamental qualities that I should be looking for in a good partner?
1:10:28 Oh, yeah. I mean, there’s a million.
1:10:35 But the core, the core that I like to write about is, and I actually, I’ll even synthesize it.
1:10:43 You want to have a partner who is aware of their well-being and who is focused on their well-being.
1:10:53 This is incredibly important because one of the most profound bits of research that I feel like I included in the book
1:11:01 is that most of us believe that having alignment in the values of our partner
1:11:08 is the most successful or is the number one determinant of having a successful partnership.
1:11:15 We think it’s about values. We’re told it’s about values. We’re fed values, which, by the way, goes back to, you know where that goes back to?
1:11:21 Religion. You know how? Have you heard of you need to be equally yoked?
1:11:22 No.
1:11:23 Oh, you haven’t heard this?
1:11:24 No, no, no.
1:11:25 You’re not reading your Bibles.
1:11:26 No, I’m not.
1:11:27 You’re starting to express me.
1:11:34 All right. So the Bible talks about you have to have a partner.
1:11:37 You have to find a partner who’s equally yoked.
1:11:38 What does that really mean?
1:11:41 Equally yoked comes from oxen, right?
1:11:44 So two, you have one ox here, one ox here.
1:11:45 They’re tethered together.
1:11:46 They’re plowing the land.
1:11:49 If they’re walking lockstep, they can plow the land.
1:11:52 If you have one going off this way, one going off this way, you can’t plow the land.
1:11:53 You can’t produce.
1:11:57 So the Bible says you need to have a partner who’s equally yoked.
1:12:02 Pastors then interpreted that over the years to be what?
1:12:03 Values.
1:12:08 You need to have a partner who shares your values, has the same religion, has the same
1:12:09 accent.
1:12:11 This is how we became regimented in class.
1:12:16 This happened century after century after century, right?
1:12:22 We get to today, you ask anyone on the street, we grab 10 people, nine out of 10 would say,
1:12:24 and we said, how important are values?
1:12:27 Nine out of 10 would say values is everything.
1:12:29 What?
1:12:30 Values change.
1:12:31 They change.
1:12:35 I value things much differently today than I did 10 years ago.
1:12:36 Our values change.
1:12:37 They’re not constant.
1:12:38 We need to throw away values.
1:12:39 Are they important?
1:12:40 Yes.
1:12:42 Are they the most important?
1:12:43 No.
1:12:49 So therefore, let’s deemphasize the focusing on finding someone who matches all of our values.
1:12:52 Instead, well-being key.
1:12:53 Are they focused on their well-being?
1:12:54 That’s one.
1:12:55 Two.
1:12:56 Yeah, values is important.
1:13:03 So what’s equally, if not more is, you know what, how open-minded are they?
1:13:05 How much do they lean in?
1:13:06 How curious are they?
1:13:10 And then the third is, how resilient are they?
1:13:14 Because having a relationship with anyone means tough times.
1:13:19 So are they able to bounce back or when things get tough, do they just lay on their back?
1:13:24 So if you have a partner who’s resilient, you have a partner who’s open-minded, you have
1:13:28 a partner who’s focused and nurturing their well-being, you have a great partner.
1:13:29 What about ambition?
1:13:30 Does that matter?
1:13:34 I think ambition is a value set.
1:13:35 Okay.
1:13:36 Okay.
1:13:42 Yeah, I just wonder it, because a lot of people would say that they want that in a partner,
1:13:47 but just by, I mean, like running the mental numbers, not everybody can be ambitious.
1:13:51 And people that aren’t necessarily hugely ambitious also find love and keep love.
1:13:54 When you ask them what they’re looking for, they’ll tend to have a preference towards
1:13:56 someone who’s ambitious or goal-orientated.
1:14:02 One of the things we talked about kind of in between the lines was how society has changed.
1:14:07 And one of the ongoing conversations I’m dating at the moment is around how women are struggling
1:14:11 to find compatible men, because women are more educated.
1:14:14 I think there’s more women graduating with college degrees now.
1:14:18 The top 10% of men seem to be having all of the sex according to some studies that I read,
1:14:19 a lot of the sex.
1:14:24 And then there’s this bottom 50% of men that are somewhat disenfranchised because they’re
1:14:26 not getting the attention.
1:14:28 They’re probably turning to things like pornography.
1:14:31 Women are dating up into the right, I’m told.
1:14:36 So women, I did read a study that said the majority of women are still looking for a man
1:14:40 who’s earning more than them, but in a world of equality, which we all agree is a good
1:14:45 thing, but women are more educated now, there isn’t enough men up into the right anymore.
1:14:51 So there’s this sort of disparity between what women are looking for, but actually what’s
1:14:55 available in the market potentially.
1:14:57 These are all facts.
1:15:08 However, we have to interrogate this data, but more so, I think we have to interrogate
1:15:10 the narrative that’s being handed to us.
1:15:17 I feel like the narrative that’s being handed us today is that the top 20% of men or 10%
1:15:23 of men, they’re good, but the bottom 80% you suck.
1:15:26 That couldn’t be further from the truth.
1:15:31 And I think we have to acknowledge, and this is where two things could be true.
1:15:38 One, we live in a patriarchal society absolutely, absolutely.
1:15:43 But do we need to extend more grace to our men?
1:15:45 Absolutely, we do.
1:15:48 Are men lonelier than they ever have been?
1:15:49 Absolutely.
1:15:51 Are men confused?
1:15:53 Absolutely, right?
1:15:56 Are men being misled?
1:15:57 Absolutely.
1:16:01 Let’s extend more grace to our men.
1:16:02 What does that mean?
1:16:06 That means being aware that we do live in a loneliness epidemic.
1:16:12 Being aware that less than 27% of men have a friend that they can feel is a confidant,
1:16:18 that 0% of them now feel like they have someone who they can go to at 3 AM in the morning.
1:16:20 It’s being aware of these things.
1:16:23 It is saying, you know what?
1:16:32 I can appreciate other traits and characteristics outside of how much you earn or how tall you
1:16:33 are, right?
1:16:37 It’s important to be able to understand, and you just asked me.
1:16:43 I said nothing about how much money someone makes, nothing about how tall they are, right?
1:16:49 But at the same time, what we have to understand is the narrative that is handed to about women
1:16:57 is that all women are looking for the six foot plus CEO, right, who’s making over 100,000
1:16:59 pounds or dollars a year.
1:17:01 And that is also not the case.
1:17:06 This study here says, despite advancements in gender equality, research indicates that
1:17:11 better educated women still tend to prefer husbands who earn more than they do.
1:17:13 That’s from the Institute for Family Studies.
1:17:17 An analysis of online dating behaviors across 24 countries found that women are more selective
1:17:22 than men, showing a marked preference for men with higher incomes in education levels,
1:17:25 which again proves this up and to the right thing.
1:17:27 But there’s just not enough men up and to the right.
1:17:30 So there’s going to be a lot of women that are somewhat dissatisfied according to this.
1:17:31 Yes.
1:17:35 So the challenge, if I’m really interrogating this, is one is it’s talking about highly
1:17:36 educated women.
1:17:44 So we know that highly educated women are on average dating hypergamously, right, which
1:17:46 is what you’re talking about, up.
1:17:51 So someone who’s dating, someone who has the same or higher level of education, the same
1:17:54 or higher level of financial resources.
1:17:55 And why is that?
1:18:01 Because that’s the script that society handed to women to say the only way you can survive
1:18:06 is by finding a man who can deliver this to you, right?
1:18:09 And I think we have to accept where it came from.
1:18:15 It was this terrible society of, you know what, you’re not going to be safe unless you find
1:18:17 a man who could provide.
1:18:24 But you fast forward to today, a large percentage of highly educated women are dating this way.
1:18:26 But that’s not all women.
1:18:32 The other part is, yes, are women beginning to out-earn men and out-educate men?
1:18:33 Absolutely.
1:18:42 In certain cities, not in everywhere of the world, men on average still earn more income.
1:18:48 So if you look at the narrative that’s handed to us, you could say, well, you know what,
1:18:51 men on average still earn more.
1:18:52 But my point is this.
1:18:57 My point is that I think we all need to reevaluate what it is that we want.
1:19:04 No longer do we need to have a partner for most of us, or should I say, this is me speaking
1:19:07 out of privilege for many of us in the West.
1:19:13 No longer do we need to have a partner for pragmatic reasons.
1:19:19 If you think about Maslow’s hierarchy of needs and you just divided it into three categories,
1:19:29 you would say the bottom rung is all of our psychological and physical needs, food, shelter.
1:19:33 Then that middle rung is belonging and connection.
1:19:36 And the top rung is self-evolved.
1:19:45 Self-evolved, living our best self, contributing the most that we ever could to this world.
1:19:51 Marriage and partnership and selecting a partner was largely based on that lower rung all the
1:19:53 way through to the 1960s.
1:19:54 That’s like yesterday.
1:19:56 If you think about how long we’ve lived.
1:19:59 But it’s not evolution as well, because you see the same thing in the animal kingdom with
1:20:02 the orangutan, which has 98% the same DNA as us.
1:20:07 They still select for survival factors.
1:20:17 So I think what’s interesting when you look at different mammals and the evolutionary biology is that
1:20:23 there’s lots of similarities, but then there’s also lots of traits that are different.
1:20:29 So it’s one of those where we have to appreciate that as homo sapiens, we are unique.
1:20:35 And we live in a structure that we have largely created ourselves.
1:20:38 We’re debating about the institution of marriage.
1:20:42 Marriage didn’t exist for the vast majority of our existence.
1:20:44 But this golden rule thing, you told me about this.
1:20:45 Yeah.
1:20:46 And you told me that it’s cross-cultural.
1:20:47 Yes.
1:20:49 So it is.
1:20:52 And this golden rule thing, please explain it for people.
1:20:57 But for me, that is evidence that there’s still an evolutionary component to selection for men and women.
1:21:04 And I was reading this study that said women, almost 50% of women prefer to date only men
1:21:09 that are taller than themselves, while only 13% of men prefer to date only women that are shorter than themselves.
1:21:15 And another study revealed that women are most satisfied when their partner is approximately 8 inches taller,
1:21:20 whereas men are most satisfied with a height difference of about 8 cm taller than their partner.
1:21:26 So women clearly have a preference here, a significant amount of them, to dating a man that is bigger than they are.
1:21:27 Yes.
1:21:28 All right.
1:21:29 Yes, this is so good.
1:21:30 All right.
1:21:31 A couple of things here.
1:21:33 Do we have these preferences?
1:21:34 Absolutely.
1:21:39 A lot of this handed us through evolutionary and our biology?
1:21:41 Absolutely.
1:21:46 Is most of it handed to us through socialization?
1:21:48 Definitely.
1:21:53 Do we change as we increase our well-being?
1:21:54 Yes.
1:21:55 So here’s my point.
1:22:05 If you were to go back and say Zendaya, look, you go back 10 years, say Zendaya, look, would you prefer to date a man that is taller than you?
1:22:08 I would say there’s a good chance.
1:22:10 She would say I would prefer it.
1:22:12 Yes.
1:22:14 Has that been her result?
1:22:16 No.
1:22:20 Does she appear to be incredibly happy and satisfied?
1:22:21 Yes.
1:22:22 Right?
1:22:25 That’s from my — from my outside looking in?
1:22:26 Yes.
1:22:28 Why could that have been the case?
1:22:30 Because she grew up being handed a script.
1:22:33 She grew up the dignification of relationships.
1:22:38 She saw the prince and how large the prince always was in comparison to the princess.
1:22:41 She saw that the prince was able to pick up the princess.
1:22:42 She saw all of these things.
1:22:44 She believed all of these things.
1:22:51 And then as she became more mature, as she realized that she doesn’t need anyone’s validation,
1:22:58 as she understood the things and the traits that she loved, she was like, there’s Tom Holland, guys, hot.
1:23:01 Yeah, but that is an exception, obviously.
1:23:04 Because also Tom Holland’s got $30 million in the bank.
1:23:07 But this does happen.
1:23:09 But it’s the exception, isn’t it?
1:23:10 It’s not the rule.
1:23:11 It is.
1:23:12 And you know why?
1:23:13 Also, that’s the exception.
1:23:14 And I agree.
1:23:15 I’m with you.
1:23:19 It’s the exception because most of us have poor well-being.
1:23:22 Most of us have low self-esteem.
1:23:23 Most of us do, I would argue.
1:23:27 Most adults have low self-esteem, mid to low self-esteem.
1:23:28 And what does that mean?
1:23:33 It means that we need the validation of others.
1:23:34 Right?
1:23:37 And this is the reason why I always say it goes back to us.
1:23:39 Do you really think this is the answer to this?
1:23:46 Do you not believe that there’s a big evolutionary component to attraction selection preferences?
1:23:56 Because I’m struggling to believe that society is the only reason why we pick certain people.
1:24:04 And I do part of me wonders and slightly worries that we’ve almost accidentally inadvertently
1:24:10 designed society in such a way where what we’re looking for no longer exists necessarily.
1:24:14 So we have to confront this new reality that, in fact, we’re going to have to adjust some
1:24:18 of our preferences if we are going to be happy and find what we’re looking for.
1:24:19 Yes.
1:24:25 I do believe that a large percentage of the decisions that we make have been handed to
1:24:26 us genetically.
1:24:29 So I’m with that.
1:24:32 And I think the research suggests that.
1:24:39 So if you have, for example, you know, I was talking to Dr. Tarris Ward and talking about,
1:24:44 you know, a woman in the club, if she’s ovulating or not ovulating, just based on that men are
1:24:47 going to be attracted or not attracted.
1:24:49 Or you think about scent, right?
1:24:53 Really, what we’re trying to do with scent, the reason why we’re turned off with scent,
1:24:55 is that it’s genetic.
1:25:02 It’s that if we end up mating with someone who has too close of a genetic mirror to ours,
1:25:05 the child won’t be as strong.
1:25:09 So we need diversification in our genetics.
1:25:14 And we don’t realize this, but we can determine that through our scent by being turned off.
1:25:16 It’s a whole sniff test.
1:25:19 So does genetics play a role?
1:25:20 Absolutely.
1:25:21 Golden mean.
1:25:28 We talked about golden mean, where in essence, this is women on average, loving to see wide
1:25:36 shoulders and a thinner waist, and men on average, loving to see smaller hips, smaller
1:25:38 waist, wider hips.
1:25:41 Now, can people debate these concepts?
1:25:42 Absolutely.
1:25:44 Do they stand up?
1:25:49 I mean, are there evolutionary reasons for these?
1:25:56 Yes, because it speaks to being fertile for women or it speaks to being strong to protect,
1:25:58 right, for a man.
1:26:06 All of this does play a role, and sometimes we don’t realize how much of a role evolution
1:26:12 has played in why and how we make decisions, which is why it’s also important, though,
1:26:20 to understand how the society that we have created as human beings also plays a role.
1:26:26 How we were handed, you need to have a partner who’s the same class as you.
1:26:31 You need to, when you find your partner, that’s the person that completes you.
1:26:34 When you find a partner, that’s till death do you part.
1:26:36 Those pieces were handed to us.
1:26:38 So there’s no wonder why we’re confused.
1:26:44 We have all this evolutionary decision-making happening that we’re not even aware of.
1:26:49 And then on this side, we have society telling us this is the person that we should have
1:26:51 and this is the reason why.
1:26:55 And I go back to why awareness is key.
1:27:02 And understanding how and why we are gives us a power.
1:27:10 It gives us autonomy over our decisions so that when you are making that decision on your partner,
1:27:17 you can ask yourself, “Yeah, I would love to have a partner who’s over six feet,
1:27:19 but how important is that really to me?
1:27:22 Why do I think I feel this way?”
1:27:26 And once you begin to have those debates with yourself,
1:27:33 that puts you on the path to making a decision that you’re going to be more satisfied with in the long haul.
1:27:38 I think that’s the key and I think the awareness comes from confronting both realities,
1:27:43 which is on one hand, there are some evolutionary things that are going to make me have a bias towards a certain type of person,
1:27:50 that has certain attributes, even if those attributes are actually not going to lead to a long-term healthy relationship,
1:27:56 like fuck boys, like charisma and bravado and confidence is somewhat attractive,
1:27:58 but it might not be a great husband.
1:28:02 And then on the other hand, there is tons of things society has handed me through magazines and media
1:28:06 that have portrayed an image of what beauty looks like that are also just bullshit.
1:28:11 I think understanding both is the key to that sort of autonomy.
1:28:14 Being able to say, “Actually, I understand where that’s coming from in me,
1:28:19 but I will make a rational prefrontal cortex decision to select something else.”
1:28:25 Some evidence of this, the evolutionary basis of attraction, comes in this idea that people who have symmetrical faces
1:28:29 are more beautiful and more attractive across cultures. Is that true?
1:28:33 Yes. So there are many scientists that will say, “Absolutely.”
1:28:39 But here’s what one thing I know definitively about attraction is,
1:28:46 attraction to someone else is largely based on your self-esteem.
1:28:55 And this is what I mean, is that the lower your self-esteem, the more dependent you are on the validation of the public.
1:29:02 So therefore, you will want to have a partner who is considered to be attractive.
1:29:06 So if society, if the script is, is that symmetry is it?
1:29:13 Or if the script is wearing this type of trainer, is it?
1:29:17 If that’s what society is saying, then if you have low self-esteem,
1:29:21 you want a partner to look like that because you need the validation of the partner.
1:29:26 However, whenever you see, this is what I say,
1:29:33 whenever you see someone who’s walking around with a partner and you think, “How did those two get together?”
1:29:40 Chances are there’s an element, and remember, I’m not talking about one is super high income or one has super high status.
1:29:47 I’m just talking about, you look at a couple and you say, “They look odd.”
1:29:50 One of them could be traditionally attractive, one of them might not.
1:30:01 Normally, what’s happened is that you have someone with high self-esteem who has no need for the public’s validation of their partner at all.
1:30:04 I don’t think people talk about this enough, but it’s so unbelievably true.
1:30:12 In fact, I know an individual who has a historically low self-esteem and went through a lot of stuff when they were younger.
1:30:17 And I remember when they got into a relationship, I remember exactly where I stood in London.
1:30:22 I remember the time of day when they turned to me, they just got into a relationship, something with a historically low self-esteem.
1:30:27 And they said to me, “Steve, I really like her, but I’m kind of worried.”
1:30:28 This is an exact quote.
1:30:35 I’m kind of worried, like, if I walk into a restaurant with her on my arm, is it going to be a good look?
1:30:44 And I remember saying to this person, like, if that’s the way you’re assessing this person, based on how they’ll look on your arm when you walk into a relationship,
1:30:50 my God, this relationship is fucked because you’re overlooking the actual things that matter, the most important things.
1:30:55 And this person has gone from one relationship to the next, to the next, to the next, all of them failing.
1:31:03 And the more time I’ve spent with them, I thought to myself, like, it’s because their selection is being made through insecurity and low self-esteem.
1:31:03 Yes.
1:31:05 Just back to back to back to back to back.
1:31:06 Yes.
1:31:15 It’s not being made up based on the, like, the essence of the person, the other areas of compatibility that matter more of the long term.
1:31:17 It’s that constant, like, surface level connection.
1:31:18 Yes.
1:31:24 And I think most of us are making decisions based on our self-esteem.
1:31:26 Did you see this as a matchmaker?
1:31:28 You know, yes.
1:31:30 Because you’ve seen rich guys, right?
1:31:31 Yeah, exactly.
1:31:38 You know, I distinctly remember when I was on previously and you’d asked about, like, what was one of the most profound things that you saw?
1:31:41 And I never had thought about that question until you asked it.
1:31:47 And it was these men who were coming who had incredibly low self-esteem.
1:31:50 And what it was is these were what I call late bloomers.
1:32:00 You know, it was the guy who always felt like no one liked, you know, no one liked how they appeared.
1:32:03 They were the, quote, unquote, “ugly duckling.”
1:32:08 They then found the gym later in life, right?
1:32:10 They found their mojo later in life.
1:32:12 They were always studious.
1:32:16 They were a bit introverted, maybe shy at the same time.
1:32:18 And here they are.
1:32:21 And when people walk past them, they’re like, oh my God, this guy’s a stud.
1:32:23 Like, look at, look at this guy’s a stud.
1:32:28 But he never thought he was a stud, nor does he think he’s a stud today.
1:32:33 Which is why, I say, go back to doing the inner work.
1:32:37 We would take a client like that and oppose just saying, let’s put you on a date.
1:32:38 We can’t do that.
1:32:44 We have to begin to work with you so that you realize how incredible you actually are.
1:32:47 Why can’t you just check them on a date if they’ve got low self-esteem?
1:32:53 Because, okay, we can sit them across from the most incredible match,
1:32:57 but they won’t recognize it because they’re making decisions based on their self-esteem.
1:33:00 So they’re making the decision that your friend made, right?
1:33:04 How will this person look on my arm when I bring them to the Christmas party?
1:33:08 Opposed to what’s their well-being look like?
1:33:11 Or do we share any values, et cetera?
1:33:19 So you can end up taking someone who could be great for you and push them away or dismiss them.
1:33:25 Or worse, you can invite someone into your life who’s not the best place for you
1:33:27 because of a result of your insecurities.
1:33:28 Like a narcissist.
1:33:34 Like a narcissist, like a sadist, like a psychopath, like a Machiavellian, right?
1:33:38 You know, there’s a distinct group of bad people in the world.
1:33:44 David Bus writes about this, that we have to realize they play on our fears.
1:33:49 They understand when someone has low self-esteem, low well-being.
1:33:50 They’re attracted to that person.
1:33:51 Why?
1:33:54 Because they’re better able to manipulate them.
1:33:56 What’s our best defense?
1:34:02 The best defense in any relationship in life is our well-being.
1:34:07 It acts as a wall against all of the bad people in the world.
1:34:12 And what it also does is it acts as a magnet for the great people in the world
1:34:15 because people with high well-being and high self-esteem
1:34:22 tend to surround themselves and understand and even attract people with high well-being and high self-esteem.
1:34:27 Okay, so two personal case studies pop to mind in my friendship group
1:34:29 that I’m aware of, people that I’m aware of.
1:34:32 They are approaching their 40s.
1:34:35 They would both probably say that they had low self-esteem.
1:34:39 They don’t feel like they got the time pool to figure out their self-esteem
1:34:42 because in both situations, they’re like, “I need to find someone.”
1:34:45 And they’re in a bit of a rush, I’d say.
1:34:47 One of them is a male, one of them is a female.
1:34:50 Now, what would you say to both of those people?
1:34:53 Approaching their 40s feel like they’re in a bit of a rush.
1:34:56 One’s sort of contending with a biological clock.
1:34:59 The other just is contending with like social comparison.
1:35:04 All of his friends are in relationships and settling down and he’s still single.
1:35:06 Both fundamentally have low self-esteem.
1:35:12 So the way that they’re trying to solve this problem is they’re trying to get blow-dries
1:35:16 to make themselves look pretty on the external to attract people in
1:35:20 and dating as many people as they possibly can to try and find someone as soon as possible.
1:35:21 Yes.
1:35:26 I would tell them, “You haven’t even lived half your life yet.
1:35:29 You have plenty of time.”
1:35:30 Period.
1:35:32 But I’ve got a biological clock over here.
1:35:33 You know what?
1:35:35 I understand that.
1:35:37 But you know what’s worse?
1:35:38 You know what?
1:35:45 What is incredibly sad is that I’ve seen a large percentage of people
1:35:47 say, “I have a biological clock.
1:35:49 I want to have a child.
1:35:53 So therefore, I’m just going to have a child with anyone.”
1:35:55 What happens?
1:35:56 What happens?
1:36:04 What ends up happening is it ends up becoming an incredibly difficult scenario to manage
1:36:08 because you now are in a partnership with someone who you don’t like.
1:36:09 You don’t feel safe with.
1:36:11 There’s no emotional connection.
1:36:14 They create stress on you.
1:36:18 They end up not being apparent to the child.
1:36:22 That stress leads to other issues that you may have like autoimmune disease.
1:36:25 You end up not being able to show up as your best self for the child.
1:36:34 The child sees this and they have a myriad of issues as a result of you wanting to beat
1:36:36 your biological clock.
1:36:37 I say this.
1:36:40 I understand the desire to have children.
1:36:41 I get it.
1:36:45 I wanted, my wife and I tried for eight years.
1:36:47 We went through IVF.
1:36:48 I get it.
1:36:52 To this day, we still pay for our embryos to be frozen.
1:36:57 It’s like, it’s one of those where I understand the desire to have children.
1:36:58 What age were you?
1:36:59 Oh my God.
1:37:04 It was probably 16 years ago when we started IVF.
1:37:07 We were early to IVF.
1:37:15 By the way, even before the 16 years, we had tried naturally to have a child.
1:37:20 We went through one year of cycles, unsuccessful.
1:37:30 We ended up losing a child, devastating, absolutely devastating.
1:37:36 Then we then have a cycle that works, which is our first son, Kingston.
1:37:41 Then we have a cycle that works fairly close after our second son, Liam.
1:37:47 One of the untold stories about IVF, and I wish people talked about this more, is that
1:37:52 you may still have eight embryos, six embryos that are still viable.
1:37:55 We have nine embryos that are still viable.
1:37:57 What do you do?
1:38:00 Some people will donate them to science.
1:38:02 Some people will have them destroyed.
1:38:05 There’s other folks, like my wife and I, that are thinking, “These are lives that we’ve
1:38:06 created.
1:38:08 What are we going to do?”
1:38:11 We have paid to store them.
1:38:17 Every month, since we began our cycles, we have paid to store them.
1:38:23 Some people have told me that there are limitations in certain countries around how
1:38:26 many years you can actually store your embryos.
1:38:33 It’s such a grueling decision to have to make.
1:38:37 It’s one that we made.
1:38:40 I understand the desire to be a parent.
1:38:42 I fully do.
1:38:46 How old were you in jail when you decided to do IVF?
1:38:48 I say this because you said 16 years ago.
1:38:49 You look about 30%.
1:38:50 Yeah.
1:38:51 This is the thing.
1:38:53 I was like, “Well, how old are you?”
1:38:56 What a lot of people don’t realize is this year, 50.
1:38:58 So you were about 34, 35?
1:38:59 Yeah.
1:39:02 I would say I was about 30.
1:39:03 Yeah.
1:39:04 I was mid-30s.
1:39:05 And jail was same?
1:39:07 Mid-30s, okay.
1:39:10 And you were trying for eight years?
1:39:13 Quite honestly, we had been trying.
1:39:18 We got married when I was 25.
1:39:23 We started trying shortly thereafter
1:39:27 because I’ve always wanted to be a father, always.
1:39:31 And so very quickly after we got married,
1:39:35 we thought children is us.
1:39:36 We’ll have it.
1:39:38 And it just doesn’t happen that way.
1:39:43 And what we began to see is that one of the challenges
1:39:48 was around the stress that we had in our lives
1:39:52 and how we were unhealthy as a result of the stress
1:39:56 and the impact that was having on our inability
1:39:58 to have children.
1:40:01 Did it cause a strain on your relationship
1:40:04 when you went through these struggles with fertility?
1:40:05 Absolutely.
1:40:09 You feel like, you know, the script that I felt was handed to me,
1:40:14 and this was a script, is that you’re a man
1:40:17 and if you can’t have a child, you’re not a man.
1:40:18 That was the script.
1:40:21 That was literally, I remember being at the barber shop, right?
1:40:22 When I had hair.
1:40:24 When I used to go to the barber shop.
1:40:27 And that was the idea.
1:40:28 You know, you’d have the guy who was like,
1:40:30 “I’ve got eight kids,” you know?
1:40:34 And as a result, I’m the manliest man in the room.
1:40:36 And I would leave thinking,
1:40:39 “Oh my God, I can’t even have a child.
1:40:41 What’s the issue?”
1:40:42 And then you begin to think,
1:40:47 “Okay, you know, what are all the factors?”
1:40:49 And you begin to go through the test
1:40:51 and you begin, to your point, and you’ve already done this,
1:40:54 is you see there’s a multitude of issues.
1:41:00 And for some people, they’re incredibly fertile
1:41:04 and it takes, boom, pregnant, eight times.
1:41:07 But for others, and I’m in the others,
1:41:12 it takes years, you know?
1:41:16 But I will say this, and this goes back to the investment theory.
1:41:22 The more that we invested in the pursuit of having children,
1:41:24 the more the desire increased,
1:41:30 and then now the level of cherishing our boys is on a whole…
1:41:34 I think because of that experience is on a whole other level.
1:41:37 I can imagine it really tears relationships apart,
1:41:39 this issue of fertility in children,
1:41:41 especially if the results come back.
1:41:44 I was super scared when the sperm analysis came in
1:41:46 and they sent me the email with the password on it.
1:41:49 I was like, “Oh my God, imagine if I open this document now
1:41:52 and it says that my sperm are not good.
1:41:54 She’s going to leave me.”
1:41:56 That’s what you kind of think.
1:41:58 And I’m sure she might have felt the same way.
1:42:01 I think it’s out in her that said if her results came back
1:42:04 and it was bad, then maybe I would leave or something.
1:42:08 Obviously I wouldn’t, but I’m sure it tears a lot of families apart,
1:42:12 a lot of relationships apart, these issues of fertility.
1:42:22 Yes, and that’s why it’s so important for us to spend more time
1:42:27 in determining whether or not we feel like we have the right partner.
1:42:30 Before we decide to commit to them,
1:42:33 before we decided to have children with them,
1:42:35 which is a massive decision,
1:42:39 before we decide to move house or move into a house,
1:42:49 our partner is often life or death for us,
1:42:51 the selection of our partner.
1:42:56 The selection of our partner is, I truly believe,
1:43:00 the most important decision that we will have
1:43:03 because of all these things that it dictates that we’ve talked about.
1:43:07 So having more emphasis on who that partner is
1:43:11 and the dialogue up front is so incredibly important.
1:43:13 You think about this.
1:43:22 The Gottmans, they talk about how 69% of problems in a relationship
1:43:24 will never be resolved.
1:43:27 69%, never be resolved.
1:43:28 That’s scary.
1:43:29 That’s scary.
1:43:30 What does that mean?
1:43:32 That means that you have to learn how to manage it.
1:43:34 So that means that you have to have a partner
1:43:38 who has superior conflict management skills and so do you.
1:43:42 If your partner doesn’t have that,
1:43:44 you are in for a world of hurt.
1:43:46 Wouldn’t it be great to have determined that
1:43:48 before you decide to have a child with someone?
1:43:50 Because once you have a child,
1:43:53 the level of conflict is going through the roof.
1:43:58 I had some stats that show that in terms of mental health,
1:44:01 the study published in Nature showed that unmarried individuals
1:44:05 have a 79% higher risk of developing depression
1:44:07 compared to their married counterparts.
1:44:08 Maybe one should get married.
1:44:11 But also research indicates that strong social connections
1:44:14 like a romantic relationship can increase longevity significantly.
1:44:17 And a comprehensive study analyzing 43 data sets revealed
1:44:20 that the quality of one’s romantic relationship
1:44:24 is a significant predictor of overall life satisfaction.
1:44:26 High relationship satisfaction correlates
1:44:29 with increased happiness and well-being.
1:44:31 And the stats go on and on and on and on.
1:44:35 Even financial implications, which is quite staggering.
1:44:37 This is a bit of a different question,
1:44:39 but we talked a second ago about self-esteem
1:44:42 and how if someone came to you in your matchmaking days
1:44:44 and they were like keen to form and find love,
1:44:45 one of the first things you’d say is like,
1:44:47 “We need to work on the self-esteem.”
1:44:51 But if a man comes to you and they are…
1:44:53 Let’s say you’re one of your sons.
1:44:54 -Okay. -Kingston?
1:44:56 -Is that your oldest? -Yes, it’s my oldest.
1:44:58 -Kingston goes, “Dad, listen,
1:45:02 what should I be doing to increase the probability now
1:45:05 that I find and keep a partner?
1:45:08 What work can I do on my own now?
1:45:11 Like, do I need to hit the gym? Do I need to read a book?
1:45:13 What do I need to do? Do I need to go out and earn money?”
1:45:15 -Great question. -And I want the honest answer
1:45:17 that you would say to Kingston when no one’s looking.
1:45:18 You know what’s wild is,
1:45:20 I’ve already started talking to Kingston about this.
1:45:21 -Okay. -‘Cause we work out together
1:45:22 on the weekends.
1:45:24 And I’m shocked at how strong he’s getting.
1:45:25 He’s 14.
1:45:28 All the time, I tell him,
1:45:33 “Kingston, King, surround yourself with great people.
1:45:35 That’s it. Surround yourself.
1:45:38 Put yourself in proximity
1:45:40 to people who have healthy relationships,
1:45:43 to people who have high satisfaction in their relationships.
1:45:45 It’s no different than in business.
1:45:47 You want to succeed? Surround yourself with folks
1:45:48 who are succeeding in business.
1:45:50 You surround yourself with those people.
1:45:54 And what you begin to do is you begin to observe their habits.
1:45:56 You see their skills.
1:45:59 You adopt their habits. You adopt their skills.
1:46:03 You understand where the boundaries should be.
1:46:06 What is a healthy doubt? What is an unhealthy doubt?
1:46:08 You learn all of these behaviors
1:46:11 by simply surrounding yourself with good people.
1:46:13 This is the key.
1:46:15 As you guys know, WOOP is one of my show sponsors.
1:46:18 It’s also a company that I have invested in.
1:46:20 And it’s one that you guys ask me about a lot.
1:46:22 The biggest question I get asked is why I use WOOP
1:46:24 over other wearable technology options.
1:46:26 And there is a bunch of reasons,
1:46:27 but I think it really comes down
1:46:29 to the most overlooked yet crucial feature.
1:46:31 It’s non-invasive nature.
1:46:34 When everything in life seems to be competing for my attention,
1:46:37 I turn to WOOP because it doesn’t have a screen.
1:46:39 And Will Armed, the CEO who came on this podcast,
1:46:41 told me the reason that there’s no screen,
1:46:44 because screens equal distraction.
1:46:46 So when I’m in meetings or I’m at the gym,
1:46:48 my WOOP doesn’t demand my attention.
1:46:49 It’s there in the background,
1:46:52 constantly pulling data and insights from my body
1:46:54 that are ready for when I need them.
1:46:56 If you’ve been thinking about joining WOOP,
1:46:59 you can head to join.woop.com/ceo
1:47:01 and try WOOP for 30 days,
1:47:03 risk-free and zero commitment.
1:47:06 That’s join.woop.com/ceo.
1:47:09 Let me know how you get on.
1:47:10 Myths.
1:47:11 Yes.
1:47:13 We’ve talked about a lot of myths today.
1:47:17 Your book contains 21 different myths.
1:47:19 I won’t go through them all,
1:47:21 because I think people should buy the book
1:47:22 and read them all,
1:47:24 and we don’t have enough time to go through all of them.
1:47:25 But just picking out some of the ones
1:47:26 that really stood out to me.
1:47:27 Okay.
1:47:28 One of the myths that you say in your book
1:47:32 is that more sex equals a happier relationship.
1:47:33 Is that true?
1:47:35 Does having more sex
1:47:37 increase the happiness in your relationship?
1:47:40 No.
1:47:41 No.
1:47:43 Now,
1:47:47 here’s the investigation of that.
1:47:52 Studies show that couples who have a high level
1:47:55 of satisfaction in their relationship,
1:47:57 they have a high amount of sex.
1:48:00 But it’s not as a result of the sex
1:48:02 that gives them the high satisfaction.
1:48:04 It’s the high satisfaction
1:48:06 that gives them the high amount of sex.
1:48:08 So the challenge is that we have to reframe
1:48:10 and we have to stop thinking that
1:48:13 just because we’re having a lot of sex,
1:48:15 it doesn’t mean that we have a great relationship.
1:48:17 I see this happen all the time,
1:48:18 especially on Married at First Sight.
1:48:19 A couple sits down.
1:48:20 The first thing they say is,
1:48:21 “Oh, Paul, I don’t need any help.
1:48:24 We’re having sex like rabbits.”
1:48:27 First of all, lions have much more sex than rabbits.
1:48:31 Secondly is that doesn’t mean
1:48:32 you have a great relationship.
1:48:33 The fact that you’re having lots of sex,
1:48:35 it tells me nothing.
1:48:41 So the myth is that if you have lots of sex,
1:48:44 it means you have a healthy relationship.
1:48:46 But could you be in a sexless relationship
1:48:48 and also be extremely happy?
1:48:50 You can, many people.
1:48:51 Many people are in that space.
1:48:52 You’ve met people that are like this?
1:48:53 Yes.
1:48:56 There are a significant percentage of people
1:48:57 that are like that,
1:49:00 especially as we get older.
1:49:03 You have couples in their 80s
1:49:05 who’ve now reached a point where
1:49:08 the desire for sex is not there.
1:49:10 Maybe it’s once a year.
1:49:13 And I know everyone in their 20s, 30s, 40s,
1:49:15 even 50s are like, “Oh, my gosh, once a year.
1:49:16 This is crazy.”
1:49:20 But if you have a couple,
1:49:22 there are two different desires here.
1:49:25 There’s one is called a spontaneous desire
1:49:27 and one is called a responsive desire.
1:49:30 Now, there is a gender difference here.
1:49:33 Most men, even if you look through the ages,
1:49:35 all the way up to 60s, 70s,
1:49:38 they have what’s called a spontaneous desire,
1:49:40 which means that they are ready.
1:49:42 24/7, they could just go.
1:49:46 They need no emotional turn on in order to have sex.
1:49:48 They just get hard on sat there.
1:49:53 Hard on demand pretty much.
1:49:57 Whereas as women get older, typically,
1:50:00 they require responsive desire.
1:50:01 What is responsive desire?
1:50:04 They want some emotional connection,
1:50:06 some emotional currency.
1:50:07 They want some safety.
1:50:10 They want a conversation and not just one,
1:50:14 but they want to have a buildup of that emotional currency
1:50:17 in order for them to have a responsive desire to the sex
1:50:18 in order to have sex.
1:50:22 So there’s different desires when you talk about sex.
1:50:26 And I think that more discussion needs to be had
1:50:29 around responsive desire.
1:50:33 And the importance of building what Dr. Karen Gurney
1:50:36 talks about is as emotional currency
1:50:38 to build up that connection with your partner.
1:50:42 So emotional currency is almost like putting deposits
1:50:44 in the bank account.
1:50:49 If there’s an empty sexual bank account
1:50:51 and you just go to your partner and you say,
1:50:52 “I want to have sex.”
1:50:53 In other words, “I want to make a withdrawal.”
1:50:54 There’s nothing there.
1:50:55 You’re getting nothing.
1:50:57 Literally, you’re getting nothing.
1:51:04 However, if you are placing deposits in…
1:51:05 What is that?
1:51:08 That is, I just wanted to send you a text to tell you
1:51:10 how much I do love you.
1:51:14 I appreciate how well you take care of the kids.
1:51:19 I can’t wait for us to have date night tonight
1:51:22 just to watch the movie and have wine.
1:51:31 These deposits, hugs, kisses with no requirement of sex.
1:51:33 I often talk about a 30-second hug,
1:51:36 and I gave you a 30-second hug once.
1:51:39 Why don’t you look happy about that?
1:51:42 No, it matters, it’s important.
1:51:43 Davina does the same.
1:51:45 She’s a really exceptional hugger.
1:51:46 Yes, she’s very good.
1:51:50 So the 30-second hug, I talk about the six-second kiss,
1:51:52 and so many people respond back,
1:51:54 “Well, if I gave my husband a 30-second kiss,
1:51:57 he’d think that sex is at the end of that.”
1:52:00 No, we need to normalize these things.
1:52:04 That’s putting emotional deposits into our partner.
1:52:06 So then once it’s built up,
1:52:08 then you can go make your withdrawal.
1:52:09 Right?
1:52:15 And so, yes, sex needs to be looked at,
1:52:18 I think, more and more from the standpoint
1:52:21 of responsive and spontaneous desire.
1:52:23 Desire management time
1:52:26 that I talk about with my friends sometimes.
1:52:29 Should we spend more time apart in our relationships?
1:52:31 We live in a society now, as you said,
1:52:33 where we’re becoming more and more individualistic,
1:52:35 which means there’s more demands being placed
1:52:37 on our partner to be everything.
1:52:39 Surely they’re less attractive,
1:52:41 because if they’re our counselor, our therapist,
1:52:43 our accountant, or our best friend,
1:52:45 it seems like, logically,
1:52:47 then they wouldn’t be as spicy.
1:52:50 Yeah, if they are everything,
1:52:52 we set ourselves up
1:52:55 with a very high-stakes relationship,
1:52:58 because the moment that they don’t become everything,
1:53:00 they could be 99% of everything,
1:53:04 but the moment they’re not 100%, we’re disappointed.
1:53:07 But also, like, if this person is, like,
1:53:11 my emotional support in so many areas of my life,
1:53:16 they are my friend, they are my co-founder of my company,
1:53:21 I wonder if the spice, you know, they say,
1:53:23 “Absence makes the heart grow fonder.”
1:53:26 I wonder if the spice is going to leave the building.
1:53:30 The spice can, but there are other, I think,
1:53:32 more challenging issues that can arise.
1:53:35 And I’ll give you my example, because I fell into this, right?
1:53:39 So, I reached a point in my marriage
1:53:42 where my wife was everything to me.
1:53:43 She was my co-founder.
1:53:45 We were running a matchmaking agency.
1:53:47 We spent nearly all of our time together.
1:53:50 We were co-parents, right?
1:53:53 We were — if I had a business question,
1:53:56 a platonic question, a romantic question,
1:53:58 I would go to her.
1:54:01 It got to the point where I saw myself
1:54:04 disconnecting from my social circle.
1:54:08 I used to go to — I had season tickets to watch basketball.
1:54:09 I would stop doing that.
1:54:12 I stopped watching my NFL football on the weekends
1:54:14 because it was just spending time with, you know,
1:54:16 with Jill and the boys.
1:54:19 And I realized very quickly that what was happening
1:54:25 is I was investing everything into my wife and my family.
1:54:27 And the issue is that — and this is —
1:54:31 this is what happens with so many people
1:54:36 is that I had no other confidence in my life.
1:54:40 I had distanced myself from almost everyone.
1:54:43 And the issue from that is, then,
1:54:46 I’m bringing no value into the relationship
1:54:48 because I have no other relationships.
1:54:50 That’s ultimately what that means,
1:54:52 is when you have other relationships,
1:54:53 when you have other friendship circles,
1:54:55 you’re learning new things.
1:54:58 You’re bringing novelty into your relationship.
1:55:00 You are adding spice to your relationship.
1:55:01 I wasn’t doing any of that.
1:55:03 That continued for quite some time.
1:55:08 This is one of the reasons why I got involved with football here
1:55:13 is that being involved now with a football team in England
1:55:18 has allowed me an outlet outside of my family
1:55:23 and even outside of my social circle that I was building here
1:55:25 that is entirely different.
1:55:27 It’s a different group of people —
1:55:31 it’s a group of people who I had not come across
1:55:33 in my walks of life,
1:55:37 who I love and adore and learn so much from,
1:55:39 and I have a sense of enjoyment.
1:55:41 And because I have a sense of enjoyment there,
1:55:45 I begin to have more purpose in my life.
1:55:48 I begin to have more joy in my life,
1:55:52 and the more joyful I am about my entire life,
1:55:54 I can bring that to my relationship
1:55:57 and help to boost that relationship.
1:55:59 And so it’s almost like, you know,
1:56:01 if you think about —
1:56:04 if you’re an electrical battery, right,
1:56:07 and you’re charging it and you are the battery,
1:56:10 how wonderful would it be to be able to get a charge
1:56:13 from eight sources opposed to one, right?
1:56:15 Maybe the one is not working today,
1:56:17 and therefore you don’t get charged up.
1:56:21 But if you can charge eight different sources, right,
1:56:24 it hires the likelihood of you being charged up
1:56:27 to, you know, to live your best life.
1:56:29 I think this is where the attachment styles
1:56:32 comes into play again, because I think in my relationship,
1:56:35 I’m maybe a little bit more on the avoidant side,
1:56:37 and she’s maybe a little bit more on the anxious side,
1:56:39 so I think there’s a desire in me to, like,
1:56:42 space, freedom, explore, wonder.
1:56:44 She has that too, of course, but I think I just —
1:56:46 I have it a little bit more,
1:56:49 so it can sometimes feel like she’s pursuing —
1:56:50 Yes.
1:56:52 — the quality time,
1:56:56 and I’m maybe pursuing being on my own —
1:56:57 Yes.
1:56:59 — which causes this sort of dysfunction
1:57:00 or this imbalance.
1:57:02 I guess some couples who are both anxious,
1:57:04 I don’t know if they get on, but —
1:57:06 No, I mean, what happens most of the time
1:57:10 is anxious find avoidance.
1:57:11 Oh, okay.
1:57:14 Yeah, so those are the two that end up matching,
1:57:16 and it’s very important to work —
1:57:19 for you both to work on an earned secure.
1:57:22 And one of the best ways to do that is to surround yourself
1:57:24 with couples who are secure.
1:57:27 Why is it that anxious relationship attachment styles
1:57:28 go for avoidance?
1:57:30 You’d think they’d go for anxious, right?
1:57:33 And we should probably pause to define
1:57:35 what these attachment styles mean.
1:57:36 Sure, sure.
1:57:41 So out of Mary Ainsworth and John Bulby research,
1:57:44 which, you know, Bulby from the U.K.,
1:57:47 Ainsworth from Canada, the whole idea is —
1:57:51 it was something called the Strange Situations Test,
1:57:54 which examined the relationship that we have
1:57:56 with our first caregivers.
1:57:59 And those who had a secure attachment
1:58:03 is where your caregiver was really always there for you.
1:58:05 So in your time of need,
1:58:09 your caregiver was always there to be of support.
1:58:13 Anxious, which a large percentage of the population is anxious,
1:58:16 is where your caregiver was there sometimes.
1:58:17 Other times, they weren’t.
1:58:20 This is very prevalent in immigration communities,
1:58:21 first-second generation,
1:58:23 especially second-generation immigrants,
1:58:26 where your parent was working.
1:58:29 You know, they’re hustling, multiple jobs,
1:58:31 and they’re there for you sometimes,
1:58:33 but they can’t be there for you all the time.
1:58:34 And then you have avoidant.
1:58:37 Avoidant is when the caregiver wasn’t there.
1:58:41 So you had to learn to self-soothe.
1:58:43 You end up seeing a large number
1:58:48 of very successful business people are avoidants.
1:58:49 Why?
1:58:52 Because they’ve learned to be self-reliant.
1:58:59 Anxious tend to be more of what feels to be needy, right?
1:59:01 Secure, I’m okay.
1:59:03 You know, I’m okay by myself.
1:59:07 Now, why do anxious and avoidants end up matching?
1:59:13 Because the anxious feels comfortable in pursuit.
1:59:17 That’s our disposition,
1:59:20 and I think I’m earning more of a secure,
1:59:26 but my natural inclination is that I’m comfortable in pursuit.
1:59:32 And avoidant is comfortable being pursued.
1:59:36 Because you have an opportunity to connect,
1:59:38 but then create the distance when you want to.
1:59:43 So you end up seeing many anxious and avoidants come together,
1:59:45 and it’s important to recognize that.
1:59:47 So you’ve already recognized this,
1:59:50 which is half the battle is the awareness.
1:59:55 Now you can begin to develop the tools to become more secure.
1:59:57 That’s difficult.
1:59:58 That’s the work.
1:59:59 It’s difficult, isn’t it?
2:00:01 I think step one is obviously awareness,
2:00:03 because then you can start to sort of catch yourself out
2:00:05 and see yourself when you’re exhibiting certain behaviors
2:00:06 and really start to question them.
2:00:08 That’s kind of what I do now as an avoidant.
2:00:11 When my partners like looking for attention
2:00:16 and making those bids for attention as they call them,
2:00:19 I observe what they’re doing.
2:00:21 I observe how I feel about it,
2:00:27 and I then rationalize it above both of those observations
2:00:29 in a different way.
2:00:31 So I’ll rationalize it as I love this person so much,
2:00:33 and if they need some attention right now,
2:00:35 just play the game, Steve, just give them what they want.
2:00:38 Whereas before, I’d be like, “Why are they annoying me?”
2:00:40 Do you know what I mean?
2:00:41 Yes.
2:00:43 But I have to do that every day.
2:00:44 As many of these podcasters I’ve done,
2:00:46 as many times I’ve heard about attachment styles,
2:00:48 it’s still an ongoing battle.
2:00:49 And I think this is important,
2:00:52 because sometimes we believe that we’re fixed or cured,
2:00:55 because we have information that we’re going to act upon it
2:00:58 at all times, but the wiring is so deep.
2:01:01 It is, and it is a continuum.
2:01:05 It never ends, and to your point is this is the work.
2:01:10 The work is that mental energy that you had to go through.
2:01:13 You were doing this, I think Dr. Julius Smith talks about it,
2:01:15 metacognition is really what you’re doing,
2:01:18 having the thought about the thought.
2:01:22 And that is tiring.
2:01:23 It’s exhausting.
2:01:25 To do that all the time is exhausting,
2:01:31 but that’s the price that you’re paying to have the relationship.
2:01:32 That’s the work.
2:01:33 Yeah.
2:01:34 And she’s worth it.
2:01:35 Yeah.
2:01:37 People that listen to this podcast will know that,
2:01:38 like, you know, when I talk about marriage and stuff,
2:01:41 it’s not anything to do with her in particular.
2:01:43 In fact, she’s the person that’s made me want to get married.
2:01:45 She’s the person that’s made me agnostic before I was against it.
2:01:46 Now, I’m like, it doesn’t really matter.
2:01:49 If she wants it, then I don’t really care.
2:01:51 So I’m saying all of this in spite of the fact
2:01:53 that I believe I’m with the perfect person.
2:01:54 Yes.
2:01:56 I mean, perfectly imperfect as well.
2:01:57 Yes.
2:01:58 As I am to her.
2:01:59 Yes.
2:02:01 I just couldn’t imagine ever finding anyone better.
2:02:03 So I’m saying all of this in spite of that,
2:02:04 just in case anyone was wondering.
2:02:05 And I genuinely need that.
2:02:06 Like, I wouldn’t say otherwise.
2:02:07 I’m not saying that just for the sake of it.
2:02:08 My friends know this too.
2:02:10 My friends all believe and I believe that she is.
2:02:12 There’s no one I’m ever going to find that’s better than her.
2:02:13 Yes.
2:02:17 A few more questions that I had.
2:02:18 That came emerged from reading your book,
2:02:20 which by the way is superb.
2:02:21 Thank you.
2:02:22 Thank you.
2:02:23 I have to say it is published by Flightbooks
2:02:25 and probably some kind of disclaimer
2:02:27 for the ASA company.
2:02:30 So that’s the hashtag I had.
2:02:33 One of the ones that was quite provocative to me
2:02:35 is this question.
2:02:41 Should you keep secrets from your partner?
2:02:43 This is big.
2:02:45 Yes.
2:02:47 So many people are like,
2:02:49 “Oh, don’t say that.
2:02:50 This is crazy.
2:02:52 What you’re saying?”
2:02:55 And there are quite a few studies
2:03:00 on a concept called selective disclosure.
2:03:01 And a matter of fact,
2:03:05 one of I think the most provocative,
2:03:08 compelling studies on selective disclosure
2:03:11 looked at many, many couples.
2:03:15 And one couple or one group was told
2:03:19 to be entirely transparent to your partner.
2:03:20 So tell them everything.
2:03:24 Every issue, every concern that pops into your mind,
2:03:25 tell them.
2:03:27 That’s full transparency.
2:03:29 Then the other was selective disclosure.
2:03:31 Now, what is selective disclosure?
2:03:33 There are rules to selective disclosure.
2:03:37 One is that you share information that’s relevant.
2:03:41 You share information that considers their emotions.
2:03:44 Information that considers their boundaries.
2:03:48 Information that acknowledges
2:03:50 the future of your relationship
2:03:52 that is timely.
2:03:54 And the tone is very important.
2:03:55 How it’s delivered.
2:03:57 That’s selective disclosure.
2:04:00 So this group was told to do that.
2:04:05 What do you think happens at the end of the experiment?
2:04:07 Everyone in the transparent group,
2:04:08 they’ve killed each other.
2:04:09 No.
2:04:11 I’m just going to say, Jesus.
2:04:12 No, no, no.
2:04:13 They haven’t killed each other.
2:04:16 But the group that had selective disclosure
2:04:19 has a higher satisfaction, less conflict,
2:04:22 more autonomy in their relationship.
2:04:25 So it’s very important to know that what I say secret is,
2:04:30 I’m saying you have to selectively decide.
2:04:33 And I think selective disclosure is a concept
2:04:36 we should spend more time thinking about.
2:04:38 So give me an example of something
2:04:40 that I shouldn’t say to my partner.
2:04:41 Okay.
2:04:45 So once again, it depends what your partner’s boundaries are.
2:04:47 So you’ve discussed these boundaries.
2:04:48 You know all these things.
2:04:49 But just generalizing.
2:04:50 I’ll give an example.
2:04:55 So your partner always leaves the cap off the toothpaste.
2:04:56 Always.
2:04:58 It annoys you.
2:04:59 It annoys you.
2:05:00 Right?
2:05:02 It annoys you.
2:05:05 However, you know your partner is going through a lot of stress
2:05:06 at work.
2:05:08 They’re working on a new project.
2:05:14 Is it the right time to bring up the fact that the cap annoys you?
2:05:17 Probably not.
2:05:19 Probably not.
2:05:21 Here’s a juicier one.
2:05:28 Your ex slides into your DMs and wants to congratulate you.
2:05:30 And it’s platonic.
2:05:33 It’s congratulations.
2:05:35 You respond back.
2:05:36 Thank you.
2:05:37 That’s it.
2:05:39 Nothing more.
2:05:43 Look at you speaking from experience.
2:05:45 Congratulations on your new podcast.
2:05:47 Thank you.
2:05:49 Thank you.
2:05:51 Thank you.
2:05:53 Boom.
2:06:01 You know your partner is working through trauma around jealousy.
2:06:05 Do you run home and say, so and so sent me this message?
2:06:07 Probably not.
2:06:11 Selective disclosure means that you’re taking into consideration the
2:06:14 relevance of the information, their boundaries, their emotions,
2:06:15 et cetera.
2:06:18 It truly is a concept that I believe will help to increase
2:06:21 satisfaction and lower conflict in your relationship.
2:06:24 I think that’s super important because a lot of the narrative is
2:06:26 just never liked your partner.
2:06:28 And it’s interesting because all of those things you’ve said have
2:06:30 happened to me in my relationships before.
2:06:32 And I think that’s an important thing.
2:06:35 It’s interesting because all of those things you said have happened
2:06:38 to me in my relationships before where an X slides into your DMs
2:06:40 and I’m literally sat with my girlfriend.
2:06:42 And the X is just saying, I’ll love this or something.
2:06:45 And you almost panic because I’m like, I don’t want to lie.
2:06:48 But at the same time, what’s the point in me stopping this moment to
2:06:54 say something that’s irrelevant and, you know, interesting.
2:06:56 Very, very interesting.
2:06:57 It’s an important insight.
2:06:59 You’re talking there about diminishing conflict.
2:07:02 And I am, I was recording some stuff over the weekend where I was
2:07:04 thinking about relationships.
2:07:07 And one of the things I’ve really come to believe over time is that
2:07:12 the best predictor of a long-term relationship is how you are at
2:07:13 conflict resolution.
2:07:14 Yes.
2:07:16 And there’s this quote that I love that I’ve never forgotten that
2:07:20 says, you can predict the long-term health of a relationship by
2:07:24 whether each cut heals to 99% or 101%.
2:07:26 Does your conflict make you stronger?
2:07:27 I love that.
2:07:30 And then the big thing that I noticed in this relationship versus my
2:07:34 previous relationships is there was this inbuilt natural conflict
2:07:37 resolution system based on who we were as people.
2:07:38 Okay.
2:07:40 And I say that because like, she doesn’t want to shout.
2:07:41 She doesn’t want to scream.
2:07:42 She wants to listen.
2:07:43 I don’t want to shout.
2:07:44 I don’t want to scream.
2:07:46 I want to listen, which meant that from the first moment of conflict,
2:07:48 we were able to resolve it and move on.
2:07:49 Yes.
2:07:52 Whereas in previous relationships, it was like two people that were
2:07:55 just broken records trying to get their point across at the other person.
2:07:56 Yes.
2:07:57 Almost trying to win.
2:07:58 Yeah.
2:08:00 You know, so one is, I love that quote.
2:08:01 I love that.
2:08:05 And what I’ve found, and I agree, our ability to, and I say, you know,
2:08:09 I’m careful with using the word management now opposed to resolve
2:08:15 given the research from the Gottmans around how 69% of these issues
2:08:18 won’t be resolved, but managing the conflict.
2:08:21 There’s two ways that we typically try to manage it.
2:08:25 One is we try to win the argument.
2:08:31 That is the route that is always going to lead to a low level of satisfaction.
2:08:39 The other route is to try to gain understanding about why your partner thought that.
2:08:44 So it’s just simply, I just want to understand, right?
2:08:46 Should you apologize?
2:08:47 Absolutely.
2:08:49 Should you always apologize?
2:08:52 All right, so here’s what the research shows.
2:08:54 Well, I will say this.
2:08:59 When I was writing the book, I was writing a chapter on apologies.
2:09:06 And I go to Jill and I say, Jill, how many times a month do you think I apologize to you?
2:09:12 And she’s like, hmm, you only apologize like every other month.
2:09:16 So she’s saying that I apologize about six times to her per year.
2:09:23 And I’m thinking, oh, this is terrible because the data shows the most successful partnerships.
2:09:27 There’s an apology every week, on average, once a week.
2:09:33 And what I realized in the trap that I fell into, and I think a lot of men fall into this,
2:09:38 is the threshold in which we believe we should be apologizing.
2:09:42 So something will happen in the relationship.
2:09:46 What I need to apologize for that, it’s just like it is what it is.
2:09:51 So for example, I mean, the trash is always a big issue in my household, right?
2:09:54 So I’m supposed to take the rubbish out or take the trash out.
2:09:56 And sometimes I forget, okay?
2:09:57 I forget.
2:10:01 I don’t think it’s apology worthy to forget, to take it out.
2:10:04 But I realize that’s my threshold.
2:10:12 But to my wife, that is a, I mean, there’s World War III and there’s not taking out the rubbish.
2:10:14 So that’s a major issue.
2:10:16 So her threshold level is different.
2:10:23 So part of what I learned in investigating this chapter is for us to be so in tune with our partner
2:10:28 that we understand what their threshold is and we meet them at it.
2:10:33 I had an incident in my relationship a couple of weeks back, maybe five, six weeks ago where
2:10:40 I didn’t want to apologize because I wasn’t sorry.
2:10:42 Look, because I didn’t think I did anything wrong.
2:10:43 Okay.
2:10:46 And I think I am actually quite quick to apologize to my partner.
2:10:47 I’ve apologized this week.
2:10:49 I’ve probably apologized last week for something.
2:10:50 But it was a really interesting moment.
2:10:54 We were actually in like relationships, counseling therapy or whatever.
2:10:57 We’ve been, since the start of our relationship, been doing this.
2:10:59 We’ve been through like three different therapists.
2:11:05 And I looked at the situation objectively and arrived at the conclusion that in the future,
2:11:07 I would not have done anything different.
2:11:11 So I arrived at the conclusion that an apology would actually be disingenuous.
2:11:16 Like I would be apologizing for something and probably setting a new standard in our relationship
2:11:19 that I know I can’t meet in the future.
2:11:24 So I explained that and said, I don’t want to apologize because I wouldn’t mean it in this situation.
2:11:26 And I wondered whether there’s any merit in that.
2:11:31 Like, does your apology genuinely have to be sincere or are you just doing it just to keep the peace?
2:11:35 You’re doing it only when it’s sincere.
2:11:38 But how we’re doing it is very important.
2:11:45 So in the research that I found, only 50% of apologies are actually effective, right?
2:11:48 What constitutes an effective apology?
2:11:56 There’s a system that I’ve created called ARC. A. Acknowledge. Acknowledge what happened.
2:12:05 So for example, I am sorry that I interrupted you. Genuinely sorry, right?
2:12:07 I’m sorry that I interrupted you.
2:12:18 Two is remorseful. And I apologize for the fact that you may feel undervalued or not listened to as a result.
2:12:21 That’s the remorse. And then the C is the commitment.
2:12:34 And in the future, I’m going to try to pay more attention when we’re having these conversations so that I’m not interrupting you.
2:12:38 Right? So this is the kind of, you know, what I call ARC method.
2:12:46 But the idea is to make it effective, is to acknowledge what happened, be remorseful for the emotional impact.
2:12:49 That’s the key. And that’s where I wanted to come with yours.
2:12:54 And then C is what’s your commitment for the future. That makes it a comprehensive apology.
2:13:02 So in your situation, perhaps what you did objectively, you would do in the future.
2:13:06 But you are remorseful for how it made her feel.
2:13:10 So I’ll give you some context. I was basically working on something very, very important.
2:13:16 I was going through it and I told her previously, I’m going to be going through this thing.
2:13:18 I need to be working on this thing. It’s very, very important.
2:13:22 She knew the every single detail of this project I was working on.
2:13:26 She knew the deadline. She knew the significance of it profound.
2:13:33 And one thing I’d learned probably from doing this podcast and speaking to you was that assume people can’t read your mind to brief them.
2:13:37 If you’re going to be a bit strange, if you’re going to be a bit focused, let them know ahead of time.
2:13:42 So I’d sat her down and said, listen, for this period of time here, I’m going to be a bit weird.
2:13:50 And I’d asked her to lower her expectations on me, which I think is a pretty forward thinking thing to do.
2:14:01 And within a short period of time, we had had a disagreement, a moment of conflict, because upon like, while I was working on this thing,
2:14:09 on the third bid for attention, I had seemingly ignored it, which caused the spiral and I hate when you ignore me.
2:14:16 And I’d said, listen, I told you, I was, I sat, you literally sat you down night before and in the morning and had a conversation with you just to tell you what was going on.
2:14:18 I’m not how I needed to focus on this thing.
2:14:24 So I thought the reason why I didn’t want to apologize was because I thought I did everything I thought I was supposed to do.
2:14:27 Like I thought I was like, let the person know, told them exactly what’s let them in on it.
2:14:29 Let them know what was going on in my nervous system.
2:14:31 Let them know what was going on in my mind.
2:14:37 And we still ended up in this like situation where there was a bid for attention and I wasn’t quite there.
2:14:41 But I literally said, I’m probably not going to be very present right now.
2:14:42 Yes.
2:14:45 So I thought, well, what could I have done in future?
2:14:48 Well, like what more could I have done in that situation?
2:14:53 So I thought maybe I shouldn’t be apologizing here because I actually don’t know what commitment I can make.
2:14:57 So then do you just not apologize then?
2:14:58 You just didn’t apologize.
2:14:59 So we were in therapy.
2:15:01 We were in like a couple’s therapy thing.
2:15:02 Okay.
2:15:09 So I was telling the therapist this to see what their perspective was and they kind of sided with me.
2:15:10 Really?
2:15:16 I think they sided with me and then my partner ended up apologizing, which is quite right because I typically think that I should apologize.
2:15:17 Oh my gosh.
2:15:18 Okay.
2:15:19 Well, so I may have a different take then.
2:15:20 Okay.
2:15:21 Please.
2:15:27 One is you have, you’re clear that your partner is anxious.
2:15:28 Yeah.
2:15:29 She knows she’s anxious.
2:15:39 So you’re aware that as a result of her being anxious, there’s a higher level of reassurance that she is going to need while she is working on healing and becoming earned.
2:15:40 But people never really heal.
2:15:41 You never…
2:15:42 I never heal.
2:15:43 Well, you know what?
2:15:46 Healing is continual.
2:15:47 Yeah.
2:15:50 The question though is can she get to a place of being secure?
2:15:51 Absolutely.
2:15:52 Happens to many people.
2:15:55 So she’s in the process of evolving into secure.
2:16:02 So while she’s evolving into secure, you have to give her that benefit of the doubt that she’s going to need a little bit more on the reassurance front.
2:16:03 That’s one.
2:16:23 Secondly is if you did sit her down, you explained all these things, what also could be the case, I’m not saying this is, but what also could be the case is that there’s not enough emotional deposits that she currently has in the account.
2:16:25 I think that’s fine.
2:16:32 So as a result of there not being enough, she’s checking in for the reassurance.
2:16:40 So being aware of those two things, the fact that she has an anxious attachment, she’s developing secure, but she has anxious.
2:16:44 So her threshold is higher for the need or lower for the need.
2:16:48 And you may not have given enough emotional currency early on.
2:16:54 It makes sense to me that she would kind of check in and there would be a bit.
2:17:06 Now, given the fact that you’re head down, you’re focused, you acknowledge the bid, and you specifically said you chose to ignore the bid.
2:17:07 The third one.
2:17:09 It was the third.
2:17:10 It was the third.
2:17:12 It was, it was, I actually didn’t feel like I had no idea.
2:17:15 I looked up and smiled, but she was 100 meters away from me.
2:17:16 Okay.
2:17:19 And she, and then I, okay, I’m going to be completely honest, okay?
2:17:21 Because I’m, there’s no point in me bullshitting.
2:17:22 This is good. This is good.
2:17:29 I looked up, I smiled, and then I got up and walked across and I picked up my headphones and I came back.
2:17:30 Oh, no.
2:17:32 Oh, I’m so sorry.
2:17:33 I’m so sorry.
2:17:34 What did I say?
2:17:35 I’m not, I know.
2:17:36 I fucked up.
2:17:37 No, I know.
2:17:38 It’s worse.
2:17:39 Yeah.
2:17:40 It’s worse than I thought.
2:17:43 I thought it was too, I thought it was too separate incidents.
2:17:45 I thought it was the smile.
2:17:48 And then I thought maybe if I put my headphones on, I could focus.
2:17:49 No, no.
2:17:53 You need, immediately after this, you need to go apologize.
2:17:54 Yeah.
2:17:56 I thought they were two separate incidents.
2:18:01 I thought, look up, smile, and then I need to go get them headphones.
2:18:05 Because I need to focus on writing this thing.
2:18:06 No, no.
2:18:11 When a bid comes through, when a bid comes through, and we know, Godman’s talk about this
2:18:16 all the time, when the bid comes through is it’s important to affirm the bid.
2:18:21 But this is a great opportunity to discuss what affirming a bid is.
2:18:27 You know, what would, in that moment, what would have been enough for her to feel reassured.
2:18:28 Have that conversation.
2:18:35 Maybe she would have said, right before you picked up the headphones, a hug or a kiss
2:18:36 on the cheek would have been great.
2:18:38 I would be good, right?
2:18:43 And so to be aware of what it means to be reaffirmed is so important.
2:18:45 Or should I say affirmed is so important.
2:18:51 So in this case, I would, if I were you, I would apologize.
2:18:56 And do that investigation around what affirming means.
2:19:00 Because everyone needs to be affirmed, you know, differently.
2:19:01 I’ll apologize to her, I promise you.
2:19:03 But no, it’s a good, I’ll actually, I’m seeing her tonight.
2:19:06 So I’ll just let her know that I’ve got a slightly different perspective on it now.
2:19:07 I love it.
2:19:09 Let’s go for one more myth.
2:19:10 Okay.
2:19:11 Okay.
2:19:12 Let’s go for two more.
2:19:13 All right.
2:19:15 So this one’s a prevailing one that I’ve been exposed to in my relationships.
2:19:18 Should you go to bed angry at your partner?
2:19:25 This is perhaps the most believed myth, period.
2:19:29 We always hear this, just apologize.
2:19:32 And it’s not just in romantic relationships.
2:19:38 You know, I noticed this all the time when I was in school, when I was younger is if
2:19:42 there was a disagreement or an argument, the teacher would say, just apologize.
2:19:43 Right.
2:19:46 I played football, American football.
2:19:50 And you know, the coach would say, just, just, you know, just, just swipe it up.
2:19:52 Like, just, just make up.
2:19:54 Like, and you think about that.
2:20:04 And what we’re saying is that if you appear to be in harmony, you have a great relationship.
2:20:07 But we know that’s a falsehood.
2:20:13 In actuality, the key is that if you are able to fully manage what is happening, be aware,
2:20:20 acknowledge, make adjustments around the conflict, then at that point, you are living in a true
2:20:22 harmonious relationship, in a healthy relationship.
2:20:27 So whenever people say, oh, we got into disagreement, just make up before bed, I think that is some
2:20:30 of the most disastrous advice you could have.
2:20:31 Why?
2:20:35 Because you’re going to be, like, you just get into an argument, you’re going to be entirely
2:20:37 distressed, entirely distressed.
2:20:39 And then what kind of response are you going to give?
2:20:43 You’re going to give the worst qualitative response that you can.
2:20:45 Will you reconcile what’s happening?
2:20:46 Absolutely not.
2:20:51 A profound study around this, researchers divided two groups of people.
2:20:57 One group they showed distressing images to, terrible images, terrible, right?
2:21:01 And the other group, they showed the same images.
2:21:07 However, the second group was allowed to sleep for eight hours.
2:21:12 At the end of eight hours, so group one can’t sleep, group two saw the distressing images,
2:21:13 they can sleep.
2:21:20 At the end of the eight hours, they then track the reaction to the images.
2:21:21 What do you think happens?
2:21:27 The group that didn’t sleep, that didn’t rest, that didn’t get regulated, they report a much
2:21:30 higher level of distress around the images.
2:21:35 The group that is reporting back that had sleep, they’re regulated, they’re able to
2:21:38 look at the images differently.
2:21:41 They’re not, it’s the same image, but they’re not as distressed.
2:21:47 The point here is that the best thing that we can do to give ourselves regulation is a
2:21:50 cooling off period, sleep on it.
2:21:51 So you should go to bed angry.
2:21:53 You should go to bed angry.
2:21:57 And when you wake up, resolve it.
2:22:00 The brain does wonderful things in your sleep, doesn’t it?
2:22:04 It really helps to sort of unpack things and make sense of things and rationalize things
2:22:08 better, but also obviously it’s regulating hormones and the brain in a way which I guess
2:22:12 will make you make more rational decisions the next morning, not from the amygdala, but
2:22:15 from the logic centers of your brain.
2:22:16 Exactly.
2:22:22 Rest is a superpower and we don’t use it enough.
2:22:24 Last myth then.
2:22:27 If someone cheats on you.
2:22:28 Okay.
2:22:31 Is that the end of the relationship?
2:22:32 No.
2:22:34 Or at least it doesn’t have to be.
2:22:36 It doesn’t have to be.
2:22:42 I’ve referred to the Gottmans a lot and I think the reason why is because, you know, they
2:22:49 really did, starting in the 1970s, change couples therapy, right?
2:22:56 Where couples therapy, primarily between like the 1950s and 70s, was about these interventions
2:23:01 when your relationship was doomed and it was about to be over.
2:23:04 So it was a last ditch effort was to go to these therapists.
2:23:07 But the Gottmans came along and said, “No, you could build these skills.
2:23:12 You could build these tools to help you all the way through your relationship, no matter
2:23:13 at what stage you’re in.”
2:23:22 But they also spend a lot of time in what I call these existential issues like cheating.
2:23:29 And from their research, they show that 70% of people who go through their process can
2:23:33 end up having a higher level of satisfaction.
2:23:39 The key though is around the ability to truly forgive your partner.
2:23:44 And what I say all the time with infidelity, whether it may be emotional infidelity or
2:23:49 physical infidelity is go see a professional first.
2:23:55 Especially if you’ve built what you consider to be something profound and special with
2:23:58 your partner, they believe it’s profound and special.
2:24:03 And in particular, they want to fight and you have an awareness for how special it is.
2:24:09 Go see a professional because seeing a professional literally can put you back on track to have
2:24:11 a phenomenal relationship.
2:24:14 Question I didn’t think I was going to ask you, but I probably should ask you based on
2:24:16 that because we’re talking about infidelity.
2:24:19 What about digital infidelity?
2:24:21 Only fans.
2:24:23 Is that infidelity?
2:24:25 Does pornography count as infidelity?
2:24:28 Well, long story short, it depends on who you ask.
2:24:36 Most people that I talk to qualify that as infidelity if you’re not disclosing to your
2:24:38 partner that you’re doing it.
2:24:48 So if you are out here on OnlyFans or a full pornographic site and you do not disclose to
2:24:53 your partner that this is something that you do, that’s infidelity.
2:24:55 That’s cheating, right?
2:25:00 If it’s something that you disclose and you have a conversation about, then clearly it’s not, right?
2:25:03 So for some people, they will say that’s still it is.
2:25:09 In my opinion, if you are not disclosing that to your partner, it is.
2:25:19 Reading some stats here and it says that about 80% of men view porn on their own and roughly
2:25:28 35% of women reported to watching pornography on their own.
2:25:38 So watching on your own without your partner having any awareness of that for many people
2:25:45 that would be, or I believe many people would consider that infidelity.
2:25:49 With a quarter of men reporting that they conceal their pornography consumption from
2:25:57 their partner and nearly a third of women express concerns about their partner’s pornography use.
2:25:58 Yeah.
2:26:01 You know, this is why I think it’s so important.
2:26:02 We have to normalize.
2:26:09 It almost goes back to normalizing being attracted to people.
2:26:14 We have to normalize this because with an attraction, there’s emotional.
2:26:17 There’s physical and there’s sexual attraction.
2:26:21 And we have to understand that this is a part of being human.
2:26:23 This is what we’ve been given.
2:26:29 And the reason why, one reason why that we hide it is because society likes to shame us
2:26:34 and say, oh, no, once you found your partner, you should never have eyes for anyone else.
2:26:37 And part of that is what the script that’s been handed to us.
2:26:39 And we talked about religion having impact on this.
2:26:45 And we have to normalize these conversations because when we do, we’ll have higher satisfaction
2:26:52 because we’ll realize that, you know, you turn around and say, oh my God, my partner does this too.
2:26:54 You know what I mean?
2:27:04 So it’s incredibly important for us to normalize this concept around having a level of attraction outside of our partner.
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2:29:12 Is it ever productive in a relationship to be overtly jealous?
2:29:16 Like to be, babe, where are you texting? When are you coming home?
2:29:19 Like that kind of jealousy where you’re like expressing the jealousy.
2:29:29 So that level of overtness in your jealousy, I would say is dangerous and it speaks to your insecurities.
2:29:34 And this is why I always say like, because that goes to doubts in the relationship and you know, there are healthy doubts.
2:29:39 If the question is around growth of the relationship, that’s healthy.
2:29:46 If it is about a fear based on an insecurity, that’s unhealthy.
2:29:50 Paul, this is an exceptional book.
2:30:00 Really it’s exceptional because it confronts some of the biggest myths that I think hold us all back from being able to keep love and in many respects find love in our relationship.
2:30:05 So I highly recommend everybody who’s listening right now, check out the link in the description.
2:30:07 You can get a copy of this book on pre-order.
2:30:11 It’ll be out a week from now, roughly on the 6th of February.
2:30:14 I believe it comes out the 6th of February, 2025.
2:30:27 And it is the book, probably the only book you’ll need in order to increase the probability drastically that once you find that person, you will do the very difficult, maybe even more difficult thing of being able to keep that person.
2:30:32 Because I like many people listening once upon a time thought the game was to find them.
2:30:35 And now I’ve been in a relationship for some time.
2:30:45 I realized that that’s actually when the work begins. And that’s what this book that debunks these 25 myths really helps us to do in a way that is so accessible.
2:30:53 So actionable and really strikes at the heart of a lot of society’s BS to be quite frank.
2:30:58 It’s published by Flight Books, which I probably have to say for legal reasons, which is our publisher as well.
2:31:03 But nonetheless, I read this book and this is the reason why I wanted to speak to you today because it’s a really essential book.
2:31:10 And there’s a lot of mass media, social media propagated myths that I think are really standing in the way of most of us.
2:31:16 Paul, we have a closing tradition on this podcast where the last guest leaves a question for the next guest, not knowing who they’re leaving it for.
2:31:31 And the question that’s been left for you is what experience did you have around age 10 to 13, where you discovered your own power to get things done without your parents being involved?
2:31:51 I know, right away, right away. When you said 10 to 13, I zeroed in to me in New York, in Long Island, on a bus, on a school bus, getting my head smashed in to that school bus.
2:32:04 So I was, our family was one of the first black families to move into this all Italian neighborhood in Long Island, New York.
2:32:10 And there were a lot of people who you would put into the bully category.
2:32:18 And there was one person in particular that really was trying to get to me.
2:32:23 And time after time, he would taunt me, he would say certain things.
2:32:27 He had control. He was like the bully of the bus, and I had no friends on this bus.
2:32:34 And he would literally sometimes, like, smash my head into the glass as he was walking out.
2:32:39 And the bus driver would look and never stop, never say anything. And I remember that.
2:32:44 But you know what? Every day, I got back out on that bus.
2:32:51 And a lot of the times that he was smashing my head, it was because I would say something to him as he was walking out.
2:32:58 Or he would be outside and I never forget, like, he would walk off the bus and I would still flick him off, right?
2:33:03 And he would get back on the bus, smash my head in the next day.
2:33:10 I hit him again and I learned how resilient I am. I’m a resilient guy, resilient, right?
2:33:17 You push me down, I get right back up. Maybe not immediately, but I’m definitely getting back up.
2:33:23 And so that was what I learned. And that was without having my parents involved. That was just me.
2:33:26 It’s crazy how you can remember that so quickly.
2:33:34 I love how that question was posed because it focused on the lesson from that moment.
2:33:42 And it’s interesting because I’ve thought about that moment many times, but I’ve never thought about the lesson until this question.
2:33:46 And so it’s empowering to look at it from that perspective.
2:33:50 But it’s interesting because you chose an empowering lesson.
2:33:53 Do you know what I mean? So that’s like the choice you made there.
2:33:56 I was reading this book called The Courage to Be Disliked. I don’t know if you’ve read that book.
2:34:04 But it basically says that what happened, the first chapter in it anyway, says that what happened to us in our past doesn’t determine our future.
2:34:11 In fact, we choose how to take what happened in our past to serve a current goal.
2:34:20 So that thing that happened to you on the bus, you’ve chosen to take the goal of like, it’s going to make you resilient today.
2:34:24 And you’ve said to yourself, now I’m a resilient person because I get back up.
2:34:32 Now, someone else could have said, they could have chosen today to adopt a victim mentality.
2:34:37 And they could have said, I’m always the one that gets picked on.
2:34:40 And that’s just my luck.
2:34:45 And that would serve a current goal of an image that you want to maintain and construct today.
2:34:49 Now, the image you want to construct is the type of person that gets back up.
2:34:51 The power is within you.
2:34:53 Now, that’s brilliant. It really is.
2:34:55 Paul, thank you. Everybody, please go get this book.
2:34:59 It’s an incredible book and probably the definitive book on this subject.
2:35:06 And that pulls on so many different reference points from Paul’s experience as a matchmaker to a lot of the science, to the interviews you’ve now done.
2:35:12 It’s an incredible book. Keep Love by Paul C. Branson, 21 Truths for a Long Lasting Relationship.
2:35:13 Thank you, brother.
2:35:17 Thank you. Thank you.
2:35:20 Do you know that 80% of New Year’s resolutions failed by February?
2:35:26 It’s because we focus too much on the end goal and we forget the small daily actions that actually move us forward.
2:35:29 Those actions that are easy to do are also easy not to do in life.
2:35:32 It’s easy to save a dollar, so it’s also easy not to.
2:35:38 Making one small improvement each day, one tiny step in the right direction has a big difference over time.
2:35:42 And that is the 1% mindset, which is why we created the 1% diary,
2:35:49 a 90-day journal designed to help you stay consistent and focus on the small wins and make real progress over time.
2:35:56 It also gives you access to the 1% community, a space where you can stay accountable, motivated, inspired, along with many others on the same journey.
2:36:02 We launched the 1% diary in November and it sold out, so now we’re doing a second drop.
2:36:07 Head to thediary.com to grab yours before it sells out again. I’ll put the link below.
2:36:31 [Music]