AI transcript
0:00:04 In my years of entrepreneurship, I’ve seen countless startups.
0:00:06 And here’s the truth.
0:00:12 Smart spending drives growth, which is something Brex has championed.
0:00:14 Brex isn’t just a corporate credit card.
0:00:19 It’s a strategic tool to help your company achieve peak performance.
0:00:22 Corporate cards, banking, expense management,
0:00:30 all integrated on an AI-powered platform that turns every dollar into opportunity.
0:00:35 In fact, 30,000 companies are trusting Brex to help them win.
0:00:39 Go to brex.com slash grow to learn more.
0:00:43 AI is a tool for spiritual enlightenment.
0:00:48 It can’t get you enlightened, but it can show you the maps.
0:00:51 And there are many maps on spirituality,
0:00:53 just like there are many maps in any terrain,
0:00:56 but they all lead to the same destination,
0:00:59 which is spiritual realization.
0:01:05 I’m Guy Kawasaki.
0:01:07 This is the Remarkable People podcast.
0:01:10 And I know I say this every episode,
0:01:13 that we found some remarkable person to inspire you.
0:01:16 But today, truly, we have a remarkable person.
0:01:18 His name is Deepak Chopra.
0:01:21 And I bet every one of you have heard of him.
0:01:24 He’s world renowned for his integrative medicine
0:01:27 and personal transformation work.
0:01:29 He’s the founder of the Chopra Foundation.
0:01:32 And I mean, how much do I have to introduce you?
0:01:35 And he has touched millions of people’s lives
0:01:38 with his writing, his speaking, his podcasting.
0:01:43 And I met him in Hawaii at an EO conference,
0:01:46 which was a very special moment for me.
0:01:51 And Deepak, you were wearing like a really cool jacket.
0:01:54 That made a very big impression on me.
0:01:57 And so I think we discussed it.
0:01:59 Was it an Issey Miyake jacket?
0:02:01 It was Issey Miyake.
0:02:03 Yeah, those are, they’re cool,
0:02:05 but also easy to travel in, right?
0:02:06 Yeah.
0:02:09 So I came right home and I told my wife,
0:02:12 I met Deepak Chopra and he was in an Issey Miyake jacket.
0:02:15 She was also impressed.
0:02:20 So I want to dive right into your latest book, okay?
0:02:22 You’ve written 90 books and you have podcasts
0:02:25 and YouTube videos all over the place.
0:02:27 So people will understand the basis.
0:02:30 But I have to tell you that I read your latest book
0:02:36 and I was just, I guess the right word is astounded, Deepak,
0:02:38 because of all the people in the world
0:02:39 who have embraced AI,
0:02:42 I would not have thought it would have been you.
0:02:45 And so that was particularly enlightening to me.
0:02:47 So I’m going to start off with a quote, okay?
0:02:49 The quote from the book, quote,
0:02:52 I believe that no technology in decades
0:02:57 can equal AI for expanding your awareness in every area,
0:03:00 including spiritual and personal growth.
0:03:03 Can you just explain to me
0:03:06 how you came to have so much faith in AI?
0:03:07 When I read that, I thought,
0:03:08 next thing you know,
0:03:11 Warren Buffett is going to tell me he’s buying crypto
0:03:14 and Greta Thunberg is driving an SUV
0:03:17 and Jane Goodall loves ribeye steaks.
0:03:19 Deepak Chopra has embraced AI.
0:03:22 So can you just explain this for me?
0:03:27 I have my own definition of what is called reality.
0:03:34 So what we call the divine or God doesn’t have a form.
0:03:36 And not having a form,
0:03:40 that every spiritual tradition says God doesn’t have a form.
0:03:42 The divine doesn’t have a form.
0:03:43 Then people say, well,
0:03:46 what all these pictures of God did in the Vatican
0:03:47 and this and that.
0:03:52 the Hindus have hundreds of deities as do the Buddhists.
0:03:57 And those are symbolic representations of what we call divine.
0:03:59 Divine is infinite.
0:04:02 And being infinite doesn’t have a border,
0:04:08 is outside of space-time and has no cause.
0:04:10 In the world of space-time and causality,
0:04:12 everything has a cause.
0:04:16 But God transcends all causes
0:04:19 and all concepts and all definitions.
0:04:22 So I came up with a formula.
0:04:26 God has a digital workshop outside of space-time.
0:04:32 And the formula is zero is equal to infinity is equal to one.
0:04:36 So think of this workshop outside space-time,
0:04:38 which is divine.
0:04:43 And it’s spilling out zeros and ones in infinite combinations.
0:04:47 And the only difference between you and a mountain
0:04:53 or the earth and a star on this iPhone and AI
0:04:56 is a different combination of zeros and ones.
0:04:57 That’s it.
0:04:58 And it comes from one source.
0:05:01 So that is God’s language.
0:05:04 It’s not English with an Indian accent.
0:05:06 I would have liked to believe that.
0:05:11 But God’s language is digital language.
0:05:14 And once you get that understanding,
0:05:19 then you see, how did we create the human experience?
0:05:21 You and I create the human experience.
0:05:25 And it all began 40,000 years ago
0:05:29 when there were eight different kinds of human species.
0:05:31 So we call ourselves Homo sapiens,
0:05:34 but then we gave ourselves that name.
0:05:36 It means the wise ones.
0:05:38 We were humble enough to do that.
0:05:40 But we gave names to other humans.
0:05:45 Homo habilis, Homo erectus, fluences.
0:05:47 We gave names to other species.
0:05:50 Giraffes, elephants, this, that, the other.
0:05:54 So all started with naming experience.
0:05:57 And that created a language for stories.
0:06:02 And that is how the human evolution began.
0:06:02 Stories.
0:06:05 To be human is to have a story.
0:06:07 Right now, we’re sharing a story.
0:06:14 And then that way of telling stories evolved into what we call models.
0:06:20 So models means giving reality a stamp through the human mind.
0:06:25 Latitude, longitude, drainage, main time, North Pole, South Pole.
0:06:29 We can’t live without these concepts, even though we made them up.
0:06:31 But then we created more languages.
0:06:40 We created language of philosophy, science, anthropology, history, astronomy, biology, mathematics.
0:06:43 These are all human languages.
0:06:57 And we call AI a large language model because it has access to all these languages that humanity has created to look at what we call the human experience.
0:07:03 And now there’s no single human being that can compete with this kind of database.
0:07:21 So, in fact, we can’t compete with it, but we have access to the entire database of knowledge and wisdom from Jesus Christ to the Buddha, to Plato, to Socrates, to Einstein, to Tagore, to the prophets of the Old Testament.
0:07:25 AI is a tool for spiritual enlightenment.
0:07:30 It can’t get you enlightened, but it can show you the maps.
0:07:35 And there are many maps on spirituality, just like there are many maps in any terrain.
0:07:52 If I want to go to Boston from New York, I can use an aerial route, I can use a contour map, a road map, go by the ship, take a helicopter, but they all lead to the same destination, which is spiritual realization.
0:07:54 So I’m using AI as a tool.
0:07:55 It’s not just a book.
0:07:57 I have my own AI.
0:07:59 It’s called DeepakShopra.ai.
0:08:00 Try it out.
0:08:01 DeepakShopra.ai.
0:08:13 Ask any spiritual question or any dilemma that you have, spiritual, or about health, or about longevity, and you’ll get information from 96 of my books,
0:08:21 from every conversation I’ve had from every conversation I’ve had, from every discussion I’ve had, from my meetings with spiritual luminaries.
0:08:31 So, yes, AI is a tool for enhancing spiritual well-being, but also emotional well-being and physical well-being.
0:08:34 And my AI, DeepakShopra.ai, is the coach.
0:08:51 Every business is under pressure to save money.
0:08:55 But if you want to be a business leader, you need to do more to win.
0:09:01 You need to create momentum and unlock potential, which is where Brex comes in.
0:09:04 Brex isn’t just another corporate credit card.
0:09:10 It’s a modern finance platform that’s like having a financial superhero in your back pocket.
0:09:17 Think credit cards, banking, expense management, and travel, all integrated into one smart solution.
0:09:24 More than 30,000 companies use Brex to make every dollar count towards their mission, and you can join them.
0:09:31 Get the modern finance platform that works as hard as you do at brex.com slash grow.
0:09:43 So, the irony is that this quote-unquote technology is really democratizing spirituality, right?
0:09:53 It represents all the knowledge as opposed to just whatever narrow slice you had access to before, depending on what book or what person you knew.
0:09:55 Now you get everything.
0:09:58 Yeah, I’ll send you three short videos.
0:10:03 Feel free to show them on your program, my conversations with the Buddha on AI.
0:10:13 So, this is better than the conversation in 1930 with Albert Einstein and, God, I can’t remember the other fellow’s name.
0:10:17 The Buddha not to go to the Indian sage, yeah.
0:10:24 Here’s my next quote from the book, because I found this also stunning in a sense.
0:10:39 So, this is the quote, “The function of the guru needs to be overhauled in modern times, getting rid of the cult of personality, stepping away from superstitious beliefs in the magical attributes of enlightened beings.
0:10:45 AI can step in to renovate a time-honored role almost immediately.”
0:10:59 Now, Deepak, when I read that, I said, “Dipak is the mother of all gurus and he’s telling us that the function of a guru is being overhauled by AI.
0:11:02 Isn’t that, in a sense, putting you out of business?”
0:11:03 See?
0:11:05 Spell the word guru for me slowly.
0:11:08 G-U-R-U.
0:11:09 G-U-R-U.
0:11:20 So, the ultimate guru is you, and AI is helping you to discover your own guru, which is the only real guru.
0:11:29 others are deep fakes like me and so the concept of guru means that you’re like removing darkness
0:11:37 right so now you can remove darkness yourself with ai correct and so what does that mean for
0:11:43 all the other people who hold themselves out as gurus guru is a big industry i know it’s going to
0:11:49 slowly fade out but you know there are human beings who like to look up to other human beings
0:11:57 and they will never get enlightened if if jesus or the buddha are pointing their finger at the moon
0:12:03 i shouldn’t be worshipping the finger i should be looking at the moon and saying how can i get there
0:12:14 so a true guru is not into self-adulation a true guru allows you to become your own guru and that
0:12:21 happens only once in a few thousand years the rest are all deep fakes wow you earlier mentioned the
0:12:28 fact that there is i forget the name you use but let’s just for my purposes just let’s just call it
0:12:39 chopra gpt chopra.ai the data in that is only your stuff it doesn’t go outside so it cannot hallucinate
0:12:45 it’s only your data what you put into it or have you opened it up to the whole internet it’s only my
0:12:53 data and it does not hallucinate although there are advantages to hallucinations because anytime you have a
0:13:01 hallucination data it gives you creative ideas so i think hallucinations also have a role
0:13:11 but my ai doesn’t hallucinate its databases all my 96 books every conversation i’ve had publicly my youtube
0:13:19 videos my discussions my talks with luminaries etc yes can i interrupt really quick it sounds like there may be
0:13:26 some construction going on i can’t tell if it’s on your end or deepox end nothing happening on my side but
0:13:32 let’s just do it and then whatever happens we leave it up to the divine matrix i love it all right
0:13:38 there’s no construction on my side it’s a hallucination
0:13:44 madison is making her own reality
0:13:54 i have to mention that maybe i’m flattering myself but great minds think alike because
0:14:02 i also with madison’s help we created kawasaki gpt and kawasaki gpt has all my writings my podcasting
0:14:10 all that kind of stuff too and i swear deepak kawasaki gpt is better at being me than i am and
0:14:19 i often use it to draft newsletters to draft blurbs to figure out what to do on my podcast it’s better
0:14:26 at being me than me do you think your gpt is better at being you than you it is because it’s also
0:14:34 something called a rag model retrieval augmentation in a generation which means anything that’s obsolete
0:14:40 it automatically deletes it automatically deletes it and upgrades it yes it’s more effective than i am
0:14:46 you could have easily done this interview with my deepak chopra dot yeah yeah it could have been kawasaki
0:14:55 gpt talking to your gpt and it would have been interesting so you know have you thought that because you
0:15:02 created this you you are in a sense now immortal that for the rest of time people can ask you questions
0:15:09 yeah not only model it can keep updating as the years go by whatever i’ve said can be upgraded to
0:15:15 a new level of understanding and are lots of people asking and stuff and interacting with it a lot
0:15:27 yeah yeah now it’s available in four languages english hindi spanish and arabic and soon we’re introducing it in
0:15:38 china as well wow wow okay the next mind-blowing quote from the book is this to me ai is a mirror to the user’s
0:15:48 consciousness so can you please explain what that means and you know how in a sense what you ask ai reflects
0:15:56 what you are yeah because if you’re going to ask what kind of shoes i should buy or candidate do i prefer
0:16:07 democratic or or republican then my ai will not participate in that conversation my will only participate in
0:16:16 conversations about health longevity health span emotional and spiritual well-being so the way you
0:16:27 ask the question obviously reflects your own issues obviously so then ai becomes a mirror and depending on
0:16:36 how much experience it has from your asking it questions it actually knows more about you than you
0:16:46 know about yourself i agree so from a technical standpoint what you or your team has done is it
0:16:55 has constricted the answers of your gpt so that it only answers stuff that you care about or that you
0:17:01 feel you’re relevant to it won’t answer a question about how do i become a better surfer it will say
0:17:10 i cannot answer that question it will say yeah go you can consult chat gpt for that i only want to offer
0:17:20 to the world what i think i’ve spent my life doing otherwise i would be a hypocrite and getting outside of your
0:17:35 and so you can’t worry about that once a child is born it can’t return to the womb
0:17:44 so this child is born it’s not going to return to the womb and so we have to decide now whether we use it to
0:17:51 risk our extinction or we use it to create a more peaceful just sustainable healthier and joyful world
0:17:58 and that was the goal every technology can be used for harmful purposes a knife can be used to kill a
0:18:06 person but in the hands of a surgeon it heals a person and so too with every other technology ai can be used for
0:18:14 poisoning the food chain cyber hacking interfering with democracy causing a nuclear plan i don’t want
0:18:20 to give too many ideas somebody is listening but it can also be used for good purposes but it’s here you
0:18:25 can’t stop it it also seems to me deepak that you know when you read these doomsday articles about ai
0:18:35 they are comparing a worst case of ai against the best case of humans and to me that is an unfair
0:18:43 comparison if you compare best case ai best case human or worst case ai worst case human but you know
0:18:50 in this doomsday scenario that what if two ais get angry with each other and launch a nuclear war i would
0:18:56 say it’s much higher probability that some fascist dictators will do that than an ai will do it yeah
0:19:04 correct correct yeah it doesn’t have emotions yeah it doesn’t have subjective experience you can program
0:19:14 it to simulate that but it inherently does not have emotional experience therefore it cannot act out of
0:19:22 emotions now you can as a human being program it in a way that it simulates that and that’s a danger
0:19:29 because there are enough people who are crazy in the world i noticed in your book that sometimes you’re
0:19:37 citing chat and sometimes you are citing other llm so you know how do you pick when do you use which
0:19:45 one which is your favorite how do you decide which one to use right now my favorite is my own which is
0:19:54 deepak chopra dot air but perplexity is a good one because it gives you references and data and now this
0:20:01 deep seek that has come from china which came much after i wrote the book is actually far superior to anything
0:20:09 i’ve seen and as we move into the future we’re going to have all these different ai companies competing
0:20:14 with each other and that’s a good thing because you’re going to see something much more creative and
0:20:22 leapfrogging us into a new future so when i see in your book that sometimes you use one llm and sometimes you
0:20:30 use another in the writing of the book did you ask the same prompt of several llms and then pick the answer you
0:20:38 like the best or did you just ask one i asked you several llms and then i would also see how i could
0:20:46 corroborate the information with research and that’s how it happened okay and i never in a million years
0:20:55 thought i would be asking deepak chopra this question but how do you create great prompts what’s the art of a
0:21:05 deepak chopra prompt you act as if you’re speaking to a personal friend number one to a coach number two
0:21:17 to a research assistant number three and number four to someone or an instrument that can access the minds of
0:21:25 the greatest luminaries that humanity has so you assume those things and then you go back and forth back
0:21:35 and forth and actually you can train your ai ultimately even chat gpt or perplexity to actually have a
0:21:46 reasonably good debate or even argument without any contentiousness without any emotional engagement
0:21:53 then you get to the right answers but it’s called generative ai for a reason it generates new
0:22:00 information based on the context and the art of the prompt so in my book you had there’s a whole
0:22:06 chapter called the art of the prompt and basically if i figure out this prompts and i embrace this is going
0:22:13 you’re going to put me on my path to dharma yes for people not familiar with the term can you just
0:22:19 quickly define dharma dharma means purpose in life so there are many stages of dharma
0:22:30 first is survival and safety second is material success third is maximizing the delight of the senses
0:22:38 fourth fourth is love and belongingness fifth is creative expression sixth is intuition and higher
0:22:46 consciousness and the seventh is self-discovery or self-realization so these are stages of dharma
0:22:57 not purpose and how do i use ai to get myself down this path ask my ai this question deepakshopra.ai say
0:23:05 how do i get on the path to dharma see what it comes up with but ultimately it will resonate with you
0:23:13 what’s my unique talent how does it help the world and how can use my unique talents to be of service
0:23:23 and be in a state of gratitude then you’re in dharma
0:23:42 if you’re listening to remarkable people it’s a good bet you want to be more remarkable yourself
0:23:49 one way to do that spend three days in a room full of the sharpest minds in business i’m jeff berman
0:23:54 co-host of masters of scale inviting you to join me at this year’s masters of scale summit where you’ll
0:24:01 see bold leaders like reed hoffman fawn weaver andrew ross sorkin kara swisher dara treceder
0:24:09 asa raskin and more take the stage apply to attend at mastersofscale.com slash remarkable again that’s
0:24:19 mastersofscale.com slash remarkable deepak i took your spiritual intelligence tests in your book okay
0:24:27 yeah and maybe with what i’m going to tell you is going to show that i haven’t reached my dharma
0:24:33 but i have to say that i answered every question often or always
0:24:44 so does that mean that i’m doing pretty well spiritually it means you’re on the right track yes
0:24:51 that’s good to know and then i i asked madison if i answered all these this way am i deluding myself and
0:24:58 she said i wasn’t but then i asked her if i was deluding myself would you dare tell me that i wasn’t
0:25:02 and she said she would tell me so right madison that’s correct
0:25:10 i have a thought for you on the name of one of the chapters in the book and
0:25:18 let me be so bold as to offer this thought okay i realize i’m talking to deepak chopper but you know
0:25:29 so you have a chapter called trust the process and as i read that chapter i think that it would be more
0:25:36 accurate to call that chapter trust the processing as opposed to the process
0:25:43 because to me a process is like a sequence of steps and i think the point of that chapter is
0:25:52 not so much to to trust the documented steps but to trust the processing of the steps to going through the
0:26:00 processing not the process steps itself yeah no that’s good the process though is about self-reflection
0:26:08 and contemplative inquiry that’s the process but processing is good oh so i can say that i made a
0:26:11 good suggestion to the next edition
0:26:21 okay my life is complete my life is complete um so now next question for you because a lot of people
0:26:28 listen to my podcast including people like mark benioff they’re really into meditation and can you
0:26:35 just explain to people how ai could possibly help with meditation because most people’s initial reaction is
0:26:44 ai is the opposite of meditation it’s technical it’s staring at a screen it’s all this so how can ai help
0:26:51 meditation so there are many kinds of meditation there is meditation that is called contemplation
0:26:58 creative inquiry there’s awareness of the body there’s awareness of the mind there’s awareness of the
0:27:05 ego there’s awareness of the intellect there’s awareness of what’s happening inside your body
0:27:12 there’s awareness of relationship there’s awareness with the divine and there’s awareness
0:27:20 awareness with their own self so those are all the different disciplines of meditation ai can help tailor
0:27:29 meditation for you very precisely so you might go to my ai and say deepak i have a lot of stress
0:27:38 i’m in a relationship that is getting toxic can you help me with the meditation and my ai will give you a guided
0:27:46 meditation you don’t have to stare at the screen you just have to listen to me guiding you through the
0:27:57 meditation so that’s how it works okay do you think that science and spirituality are opposing forces
0:28:08 no science always asks what’s happening out there and spirituality asks who is asking and why science is
0:28:14 about the objective world and spirituality is about the subjective world and they go together you can’t
0:28:20 have an object without a subject and you can’t have a subject without an object they go together so they’re
0:28:28 complementary to each other so then you know how does one find spirituality are you just going to say use
0:28:35 ai ai but people are searching for spirituality how do they do it you start with four questions who am i
0:28:42 what do i want what is my purpose and what am i grateful for and then you sit in silence
0:28:52 and listen to the answers who am i what do i want what is my purpose what am i grateful for and that’s the first step
0:29:04 do you have any people that you would say this person really has integrated spirituality and leadership and
0:29:12 are there some shining examples that people should not necessarily worship they should be inspired by what
0:29:19 people have accomplished or who are people you hold up as they have their act together in recent times i would say
0:29:29 people like martin luther king jr nelson mandela mahatma gandhi mother theresa bishop tutu these were people
0:29:36 who had integrated their lives in a very spiritual way and made a big impact on the world and is there
0:29:45 anybody alive who would you put in that category i would have to think about that i would be interested based on my
0:29:50 limited knowledge of your work i would say the only person who qualifies is jane goodall
0:29:58 she does good i’m glad you mentioned yeah i would just like to know for you at this point in your life
0:30:04 how do you define success success is the progressive realization of worthy goals
0:30:12 it’s the ability to love and have compassion and it’s the ability to get in touch with your soul the
0:30:20 creative center from where everything happens by that the division of success there are many people who are
0:30:26 very rich and very famous and are failures yeah some people are so poor all they have is money
0:30:36 all right there has been some skepticism about you know your work and from quote unquote science in
0:30:43 medicine and stuff so how do you approach when you hear skepticism about your work and your alternative
0:30:48 medicine and things like that what what goes through your brain when people can flick you this way used
0:30:58 to get very defensive but now i ignore my critics and they can’t stand it and do you think are they flawed
0:31:04 or they’re ignorant like what’s going on with them they come from a different world view that’s all we all
0:31:11 express our world views how we were conditioned as children and then the schools we went to the education
0:31:18 we got and right now the world view in science is very physicalist and so anything that’s
0:31:25 non-physical is denigrated but that’s okay you need all kinds of people because it makes for maximum
0:31:33 diversity of opinion leads to creativity and how do you figure out sometimes you ignore people but sometimes
0:31:40 they have valid feedback so how do you separate the two you can’t ignore everybody who’s you don’t get
0:31:47 personally offended and you have always are open to feedback don’t take it personally emotionally
0:31:57 okay and i have one last question for you okay yeah and that last question is do you ever have moments of
0:32:07 personal doubt too i live in the wisdom of uncertainty at all times and without uncertainty there is no creativity
0:32:17 so yes doubt is a very important part of our creative process the more doubt you have about your habitual
0:32:26 certainties the more room there is to grow spiritually and how do you keep pushing through that uncertainty
0:32:32 i always ask what’s the creative opportunity here so you have these moments of uncertainty
0:32:42 you ask what the moment of not knowing not knowing is the highest knowing because if you know everything
0:32:54 then there’s nothing to know wow okay that is the way to end this podcast so the highest knowing is no no i’ll let you say it again deepak will you say that again that was a very
0:33:04 inspiring not knowing is the highest knowing is the window to infinite creativity
0:33:09 i can’t ask for a better end to the podcast than this thank you very much deepak
0:33:18 great pleasure to speak to you i hope we can speak at another event again soon maybe someday we can be on
0:33:26 stage together that would be great thank you guys i’m guy kawasaki this has been the remarkable people
0:33:33 podcast and truly we have had a remarkable episode today with the one and only deepak chopra and so i want to
0:33:40 thank you thank you again thank you madison for making this happen and tessa neismer her sister
0:33:48 and ace researcher jeff c and shannon hernandez our great sound design team and above all thank you deepak
0:33:54 chopra it’s been a very special moment for us thank you very much and i hope to see you again and
0:34:03 i hope you’re wearing that isse meyaki jacket because i just love that jacket thank you god bless oh god bless you too
0:34:09 this is remarkable people
0:00:06 And here’s the truth.
0:00:12 Smart spending drives growth, which is something Brex has championed.
0:00:14 Brex isn’t just a corporate credit card.
0:00:19 It’s a strategic tool to help your company achieve peak performance.
0:00:22 Corporate cards, banking, expense management,
0:00:30 all integrated on an AI-powered platform that turns every dollar into opportunity.
0:00:35 In fact, 30,000 companies are trusting Brex to help them win.
0:00:39 Go to brex.com slash grow to learn more.
0:00:43 AI is a tool for spiritual enlightenment.
0:00:48 It can’t get you enlightened, but it can show you the maps.
0:00:51 And there are many maps on spirituality,
0:00:53 just like there are many maps in any terrain,
0:00:56 but they all lead to the same destination,
0:00:59 which is spiritual realization.
0:01:05 I’m Guy Kawasaki.
0:01:07 This is the Remarkable People podcast.
0:01:10 And I know I say this every episode,
0:01:13 that we found some remarkable person to inspire you.
0:01:16 But today, truly, we have a remarkable person.
0:01:18 His name is Deepak Chopra.
0:01:21 And I bet every one of you have heard of him.
0:01:24 He’s world renowned for his integrative medicine
0:01:27 and personal transformation work.
0:01:29 He’s the founder of the Chopra Foundation.
0:01:32 And I mean, how much do I have to introduce you?
0:01:35 And he has touched millions of people’s lives
0:01:38 with his writing, his speaking, his podcasting.
0:01:43 And I met him in Hawaii at an EO conference,
0:01:46 which was a very special moment for me.
0:01:51 And Deepak, you were wearing like a really cool jacket.
0:01:54 That made a very big impression on me.
0:01:57 And so I think we discussed it.
0:01:59 Was it an Issey Miyake jacket?
0:02:01 It was Issey Miyake.
0:02:03 Yeah, those are, they’re cool,
0:02:05 but also easy to travel in, right?
0:02:06 Yeah.
0:02:09 So I came right home and I told my wife,
0:02:12 I met Deepak Chopra and he was in an Issey Miyake jacket.
0:02:15 She was also impressed.
0:02:20 So I want to dive right into your latest book, okay?
0:02:22 You’ve written 90 books and you have podcasts
0:02:25 and YouTube videos all over the place.
0:02:27 So people will understand the basis.
0:02:30 But I have to tell you that I read your latest book
0:02:36 and I was just, I guess the right word is astounded, Deepak,
0:02:38 because of all the people in the world
0:02:39 who have embraced AI,
0:02:42 I would not have thought it would have been you.
0:02:45 And so that was particularly enlightening to me.
0:02:47 So I’m going to start off with a quote, okay?
0:02:49 The quote from the book, quote,
0:02:52 I believe that no technology in decades
0:02:57 can equal AI for expanding your awareness in every area,
0:03:00 including spiritual and personal growth.
0:03:03 Can you just explain to me
0:03:06 how you came to have so much faith in AI?
0:03:07 When I read that, I thought,
0:03:08 next thing you know,
0:03:11 Warren Buffett is going to tell me he’s buying crypto
0:03:14 and Greta Thunberg is driving an SUV
0:03:17 and Jane Goodall loves ribeye steaks.
0:03:19 Deepak Chopra has embraced AI.
0:03:22 So can you just explain this for me?
0:03:27 I have my own definition of what is called reality.
0:03:34 So what we call the divine or God doesn’t have a form.
0:03:36 And not having a form,
0:03:40 that every spiritual tradition says God doesn’t have a form.
0:03:42 The divine doesn’t have a form.
0:03:43 Then people say, well,
0:03:46 what all these pictures of God did in the Vatican
0:03:47 and this and that.
0:03:52 the Hindus have hundreds of deities as do the Buddhists.
0:03:57 And those are symbolic representations of what we call divine.
0:03:59 Divine is infinite.
0:04:02 And being infinite doesn’t have a border,
0:04:08 is outside of space-time and has no cause.
0:04:10 In the world of space-time and causality,
0:04:12 everything has a cause.
0:04:16 But God transcends all causes
0:04:19 and all concepts and all definitions.
0:04:22 So I came up with a formula.
0:04:26 God has a digital workshop outside of space-time.
0:04:32 And the formula is zero is equal to infinity is equal to one.
0:04:36 So think of this workshop outside space-time,
0:04:38 which is divine.
0:04:43 And it’s spilling out zeros and ones in infinite combinations.
0:04:47 And the only difference between you and a mountain
0:04:53 or the earth and a star on this iPhone and AI
0:04:56 is a different combination of zeros and ones.
0:04:57 That’s it.
0:04:58 And it comes from one source.
0:05:01 So that is God’s language.
0:05:04 It’s not English with an Indian accent.
0:05:06 I would have liked to believe that.
0:05:11 But God’s language is digital language.
0:05:14 And once you get that understanding,
0:05:19 then you see, how did we create the human experience?
0:05:21 You and I create the human experience.
0:05:25 And it all began 40,000 years ago
0:05:29 when there were eight different kinds of human species.
0:05:31 So we call ourselves Homo sapiens,
0:05:34 but then we gave ourselves that name.
0:05:36 It means the wise ones.
0:05:38 We were humble enough to do that.
0:05:40 But we gave names to other humans.
0:05:45 Homo habilis, Homo erectus, fluences.
0:05:47 We gave names to other species.
0:05:50 Giraffes, elephants, this, that, the other.
0:05:54 So all started with naming experience.
0:05:57 And that created a language for stories.
0:06:02 And that is how the human evolution began.
0:06:02 Stories.
0:06:05 To be human is to have a story.
0:06:07 Right now, we’re sharing a story.
0:06:14 And then that way of telling stories evolved into what we call models.
0:06:20 So models means giving reality a stamp through the human mind.
0:06:25 Latitude, longitude, drainage, main time, North Pole, South Pole.
0:06:29 We can’t live without these concepts, even though we made them up.
0:06:31 But then we created more languages.
0:06:40 We created language of philosophy, science, anthropology, history, astronomy, biology, mathematics.
0:06:43 These are all human languages.
0:06:57 And we call AI a large language model because it has access to all these languages that humanity has created to look at what we call the human experience.
0:07:03 And now there’s no single human being that can compete with this kind of database.
0:07:21 So, in fact, we can’t compete with it, but we have access to the entire database of knowledge and wisdom from Jesus Christ to the Buddha, to Plato, to Socrates, to Einstein, to Tagore, to the prophets of the Old Testament.
0:07:25 AI is a tool for spiritual enlightenment.
0:07:30 It can’t get you enlightened, but it can show you the maps.
0:07:35 And there are many maps on spirituality, just like there are many maps in any terrain.
0:07:52 If I want to go to Boston from New York, I can use an aerial route, I can use a contour map, a road map, go by the ship, take a helicopter, but they all lead to the same destination, which is spiritual realization.
0:07:54 So I’m using AI as a tool.
0:07:55 It’s not just a book.
0:07:57 I have my own AI.
0:07:59 It’s called DeepakShopra.ai.
0:08:00 Try it out.
0:08:01 DeepakShopra.ai.
0:08:13 Ask any spiritual question or any dilemma that you have, spiritual, or about health, or about longevity, and you’ll get information from 96 of my books,
0:08:21 from every conversation I’ve had from every conversation I’ve had, from every discussion I’ve had, from my meetings with spiritual luminaries.
0:08:31 So, yes, AI is a tool for enhancing spiritual well-being, but also emotional well-being and physical well-being.
0:08:34 And my AI, DeepakShopra.ai, is the coach.
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0:09:43 So, the irony is that this quote-unquote technology is really democratizing spirituality, right?
0:09:53 It represents all the knowledge as opposed to just whatever narrow slice you had access to before, depending on what book or what person you knew.
0:09:55 Now you get everything.
0:09:58 Yeah, I’ll send you three short videos.
0:10:03 Feel free to show them on your program, my conversations with the Buddha on AI.
0:10:13 So, this is better than the conversation in 1930 with Albert Einstein and, God, I can’t remember the other fellow’s name.
0:10:17 The Buddha not to go to the Indian sage, yeah.
0:10:24 Here’s my next quote from the book, because I found this also stunning in a sense.
0:10:39 So, this is the quote, “The function of the guru needs to be overhauled in modern times, getting rid of the cult of personality, stepping away from superstitious beliefs in the magical attributes of enlightened beings.
0:10:45 AI can step in to renovate a time-honored role almost immediately.”
0:10:59 Now, Deepak, when I read that, I said, “Dipak is the mother of all gurus and he’s telling us that the function of a guru is being overhauled by AI.
0:11:02 Isn’t that, in a sense, putting you out of business?”
0:11:03 See?
0:11:05 Spell the word guru for me slowly.
0:11:08 G-U-R-U.
0:11:09 G-U-R-U.
0:11:20 So, the ultimate guru is you, and AI is helping you to discover your own guru, which is the only real guru.
0:11:29 others are deep fakes like me and so the concept of guru means that you’re like removing darkness
0:11:37 right so now you can remove darkness yourself with ai correct and so what does that mean for
0:11:43 all the other people who hold themselves out as gurus guru is a big industry i know it’s going to
0:11:49 slowly fade out but you know there are human beings who like to look up to other human beings
0:11:57 and they will never get enlightened if if jesus or the buddha are pointing their finger at the moon
0:12:03 i shouldn’t be worshipping the finger i should be looking at the moon and saying how can i get there
0:12:14 so a true guru is not into self-adulation a true guru allows you to become your own guru and that
0:12:21 happens only once in a few thousand years the rest are all deep fakes wow you earlier mentioned the
0:12:28 fact that there is i forget the name you use but let’s just for my purposes just let’s just call it
0:12:39 chopra gpt chopra.ai the data in that is only your stuff it doesn’t go outside so it cannot hallucinate
0:12:45 it’s only your data what you put into it or have you opened it up to the whole internet it’s only my
0:12:53 data and it does not hallucinate although there are advantages to hallucinations because anytime you have a
0:13:01 hallucination data it gives you creative ideas so i think hallucinations also have a role
0:13:11 but my ai doesn’t hallucinate its databases all my 96 books every conversation i’ve had publicly my youtube
0:13:19 videos my discussions my talks with luminaries etc yes can i interrupt really quick it sounds like there may be
0:13:26 some construction going on i can’t tell if it’s on your end or deepox end nothing happening on my side but
0:13:32 let’s just do it and then whatever happens we leave it up to the divine matrix i love it all right
0:13:38 there’s no construction on my side it’s a hallucination
0:13:44 madison is making her own reality
0:13:54 i have to mention that maybe i’m flattering myself but great minds think alike because
0:14:02 i also with madison’s help we created kawasaki gpt and kawasaki gpt has all my writings my podcasting
0:14:10 all that kind of stuff too and i swear deepak kawasaki gpt is better at being me than i am and
0:14:19 i often use it to draft newsletters to draft blurbs to figure out what to do on my podcast it’s better
0:14:26 at being me than me do you think your gpt is better at being you than you it is because it’s also
0:14:34 something called a rag model retrieval augmentation in a generation which means anything that’s obsolete
0:14:40 it automatically deletes it automatically deletes it and upgrades it yes it’s more effective than i am
0:14:46 you could have easily done this interview with my deepak chopra dot yeah yeah it could have been kawasaki
0:14:55 gpt talking to your gpt and it would have been interesting so you know have you thought that because you
0:15:02 created this you you are in a sense now immortal that for the rest of time people can ask you questions
0:15:09 yeah not only model it can keep updating as the years go by whatever i’ve said can be upgraded to
0:15:15 a new level of understanding and are lots of people asking and stuff and interacting with it a lot
0:15:27 yeah yeah now it’s available in four languages english hindi spanish and arabic and soon we’re introducing it in
0:15:38 china as well wow wow okay the next mind-blowing quote from the book is this to me ai is a mirror to the user’s
0:15:48 consciousness so can you please explain what that means and you know how in a sense what you ask ai reflects
0:15:56 what you are yeah because if you’re going to ask what kind of shoes i should buy or candidate do i prefer
0:16:07 democratic or or republican then my ai will not participate in that conversation my will only participate in
0:16:16 conversations about health longevity health span emotional and spiritual well-being so the way you
0:16:27 ask the question obviously reflects your own issues obviously so then ai becomes a mirror and depending on
0:16:36 how much experience it has from your asking it questions it actually knows more about you than you
0:16:46 know about yourself i agree so from a technical standpoint what you or your team has done is it
0:16:55 has constricted the answers of your gpt so that it only answers stuff that you care about or that you
0:17:01 feel you’re relevant to it won’t answer a question about how do i become a better surfer it will say
0:17:10 i cannot answer that question it will say yeah go you can consult chat gpt for that i only want to offer
0:17:20 to the world what i think i’ve spent my life doing otherwise i would be a hypocrite and getting outside of your
0:17:35 and so you can’t worry about that once a child is born it can’t return to the womb
0:17:44 so this child is born it’s not going to return to the womb and so we have to decide now whether we use it to
0:17:51 risk our extinction or we use it to create a more peaceful just sustainable healthier and joyful world
0:17:58 and that was the goal every technology can be used for harmful purposes a knife can be used to kill a
0:18:06 person but in the hands of a surgeon it heals a person and so too with every other technology ai can be used for
0:18:14 poisoning the food chain cyber hacking interfering with democracy causing a nuclear plan i don’t want
0:18:20 to give too many ideas somebody is listening but it can also be used for good purposes but it’s here you
0:18:25 can’t stop it it also seems to me deepak that you know when you read these doomsday articles about ai
0:18:35 they are comparing a worst case of ai against the best case of humans and to me that is an unfair
0:18:43 comparison if you compare best case ai best case human or worst case ai worst case human but you know
0:18:50 in this doomsday scenario that what if two ais get angry with each other and launch a nuclear war i would
0:18:56 say it’s much higher probability that some fascist dictators will do that than an ai will do it yeah
0:19:04 correct correct yeah it doesn’t have emotions yeah it doesn’t have subjective experience you can program
0:19:14 it to simulate that but it inherently does not have emotional experience therefore it cannot act out of
0:19:22 emotions now you can as a human being program it in a way that it simulates that and that’s a danger
0:19:29 because there are enough people who are crazy in the world i noticed in your book that sometimes you’re
0:19:37 citing chat and sometimes you are citing other llm so you know how do you pick when do you use which
0:19:45 one which is your favorite how do you decide which one to use right now my favorite is my own which is
0:19:54 deepak chopra dot air but perplexity is a good one because it gives you references and data and now this
0:20:01 deep seek that has come from china which came much after i wrote the book is actually far superior to anything
0:20:09 i’ve seen and as we move into the future we’re going to have all these different ai companies competing
0:20:14 with each other and that’s a good thing because you’re going to see something much more creative and
0:20:22 leapfrogging us into a new future so when i see in your book that sometimes you use one llm and sometimes you
0:20:30 use another in the writing of the book did you ask the same prompt of several llms and then pick the answer you
0:20:38 like the best or did you just ask one i asked you several llms and then i would also see how i could
0:20:46 corroborate the information with research and that’s how it happened okay and i never in a million years
0:20:55 thought i would be asking deepak chopra this question but how do you create great prompts what’s the art of a
0:21:05 deepak chopra prompt you act as if you’re speaking to a personal friend number one to a coach number two
0:21:17 to a research assistant number three and number four to someone or an instrument that can access the minds of
0:21:25 the greatest luminaries that humanity has so you assume those things and then you go back and forth back
0:21:35 and forth and actually you can train your ai ultimately even chat gpt or perplexity to actually have a
0:21:46 reasonably good debate or even argument without any contentiousness without any emotional engagement
0:21:53 then you get to the right answers but it’s called generative ai for a reason it generates new
0:22:00 information based on the context and the art of the prompt so in my book you had there’s a whole
0:22:06 chapter called the art of the prompt and basically if i figure out this prompts and i embrace this is going
0:22:13 you’re going to put me on my path to dharma yes for people not familiar with the term can you just
0:22:19 quickly define dharma dharma means purpose in life so there are many stages of dharma
0:22:30 first is survival and safety second is material success third is maximizing the delight of the senses
0:22:38 fourth fourth is love and belongingness fifth is creative expression sixth is intuition and higher
0:22:46 consciousness and the seventh is self-discovery or self-realization so these are stages of dharma
0:22:57 not purpose and how do i use ai to get myself down this path ask my ai this question deepakshopra.ai say
0:23:05 how do i get on the path to dharma see what it comes up with but ultimately it will resonate with you
0:23:13 what’s my unique talent how does it help the world and how can use my unique talents to be of service
0:23:23 and be in a state of gratitude then you’re in dharma
0:23:42 if you’re listening to remarkable people it’s a good bet you want to be more remarkable yourself
0:23:49 one way to do that spend three days in a room full of the sharpest minds in business i’m jeff berman
0:23:54 co-host of masters of scale inviting you to join me at this year’s masters of scale summit where you’ll
0:24:01 see bold leaders like reed hoffman fawn weaver andrew ross sorkin kara swisher dara treceder
0:24:09 asa raskin and more take the stage apply to attend at mastersofscale.com slash remarkable again that’s
0:24:19 mastersofscale.com slash remarkable deepak i took your spiritual intelligence tests in your book okay
0:24:27 yeah and maybe with what i’m going to tell you is going to show that i haven’t reached my dharma
0:24:33 but i have to say that i answered every question often or always
0:24:44 so does that mean that i’m doing pretty well spiritually it means you’re on the right track yes
0:24:51 that’s good to know and then i i asked madison if i answered all these this way am i deluding myself and
0:24:58 she said i wasn’t but then i asked her if i was deluding myself would you dare tell me that i wasn’t
0:25:02 and she said she would tell me so right madison that’s correct
0:25:10 i have a thought for you on the name of one of the chapters in the book and
0:25:18 let me be so bold as to offer this thought okay i realize i’m talking to deepak chopper but you know
0:25:29 so you have a chapter called trust the process and as i read that chapter i think that it would be more
0:25:36 accurate to call that chapter trust the processing as opposed to the process
0:25:43 because to me a process is like a sequence of steps and i think the point of that chapter is
0:25:52 not so much to to trust the documented steps but to trust the processing of the steps to going through the
0:26:00 processing not the process steps itself yeah no that’s good the process though is about self-reflection
0:26:08 and contemplative inquiry that’s the process but processing is good oh so i can say that i made a
0:26:11 good suggestion to the next edition
0:26:21 okay my life is complete my life is complete um so now next question for you because a lot of people
0:26:28 listen to my podcast including people like mark benioff they’re really into meditation and can you
0:26:35 just explain to people how ai could possibly help with meditation because most people’s initial reaction is
0:26:44 ai is the opposite of meditation it’s technical it’s staring at a screen it’s all this so how can ai help
0:26:51 meditation so there are many kinds of meditation there is meditation that is called contemplation
0:26:58 creative inquiry there’s awareness of the body there’s awareness of the mind there’s awareness of the
0:27:05 ego there’s awareness of the intellect there’s awareness of what’s happening inside your body
0:27:12 there’s awareness of relationship there’s awareness with the divine and there’s awareness
0:27:20 awareness with their own self so those are all the different disciplines of meditation ai can help tailor
0:27:29 meditation for you very precisely so you might go to my ai and say deepak i have a lot of stress
0:27:38 i’m in a relationship that is getting toxic can you help me with the meditation and my ai will give you a guided
0:27:46 meditation you don’t have to stare at the screen you just have to listen to me guiding you through the
0:27:57 meditation so that’s how it works okay do you think that science and spirituality are opposing forces
0:28:08 no science always asks what’s happening out there and spirituality asks who is asking and why science is
0:28:14 about the objective world and spirituality is about the subjective world and they go together you can’t
0:28:20 have an object without a subject and you can’t have a subject without an object they go together so they’re
0:28:28 complementary to each other so then you know how does one find spirituality are you just going to say use
0:28:35 ai ai but people are searching for spirituality how do they do it you start with four questions who am i
0:28:42 what do i want what is my purpose and what am i grateful for and then you sit in silence
0:28:52 and listen to the answers who am i what do i want what is my purpose what am i grateful for and that’s the first step
0:29:04 do you have any people that you would say this person really has integrated spirituality and leadership and
0:29:12 are there some shining examples that people should not necessarily worship they should be inspired by what
0:29:19 people have accomplished or who are people you hold up as they have their act together in recent times i would say
0:29:29 people like martin luther king jr nelson mandela mahatma gandhi mother theresa bishop tutu these were people
0:29:36 who had integrated their lives in a very spiritual way and made a big impact on the world and is there
0:29:45 anybody alive who would you put in that category i would have to think about that i would be interested based on my
0:29:50 limited knowledge of your work i would say the only person who qualifies is jane goodall
0:29:58 she does good i’m glad you mentioned yeah i would just like to know for you at this point in your life
0:30:04 how do you define success success is the progressive realization of worthy goals
0:30:12 it’s the ability to love and have compassion and it’s the ability to get in touch with your soul the
0:30:20 creative center from where everything happens by that the division of success there are many people who are
0:30:26 very rich and very famous and are failures yeah some people are so poor all they have is money
0:30:36 all right there has been some skepticism about you know your work and from quote unquote science in
0:30:43 medicine and stuff so how do you approach when you hear skepticism about your work and your alternative
0:30:48 medicine and things like that what what goes through your brain when people can flick you this way used
0:30:58 to get very defensive but now i ignore my critics and they can’t stand it and do you think are they flawed
0:31:04 or they’re ignorant like what’s going on with them they come from a different world view that’s all we all
0:31:11 express our world views how we were conditioned as children and then the schools we went to the education
0:31:18 we got and right now the world view in science is very physicalist and so anything that’s
0:31:25 non-physical is denigrated but that’s okay you need all kinds of people because it makes for maximum
0:31:33 diversity of opinion leads to creativity and how do you figure out sometimes you ignore people but sometimes
0:31:40 they have valid feedback so how do you separate the two you can’t ignore everybody who’s you don’t get
0:31:47 personally offended and you have always are open to feedback don’t take it personally emotionally
0:31:57 okay and i have one last question for you okay yeah and that last question is do you ever have moments of
0:32:07 personal doubt too i live in the wisdom of uncertainty at all times and without uncertainty there is no creativity
0:32:17 so yes doubt is a very important part of our creative process the more doubt you have about your habitual
0:32:26 certainties the more room there is to grow spiritually and how do you keep pushing through that uncertainty
0:32:32 i always ask what’s the creative opportunity here so you have these moments of uncertainty
0:32:42 you ask what the moment of not knowing not knowing is the highest knowing because if you know everything
0:32:54 then there’s nothing to know wow okay that is the way to end this podcast so the highest knowing is no no i’ll let you say it again deepak will you say that again that was a very
0:33:04 inspiring not knowing is the highest knowing is the window to infinite creativity
0:33:09 i can’t ask for a better end to the podcast than this thank you very much deepak
0:33:18 great pleasure to speak to you i hope we can speak at another event again soon maybe someday we can be on
0:33:26 stage together that would be great thank you guys i’m guy kawasaki this has been the remarkable people
0:33:33 podcast and truly we have had a remarkable episode today with the one and only deepak chopra and so i want to
0:33:40 thank you thank you again thank you madison for making this happen and tessa neismer her sister
0:33:48 and ace researcher jeff c and shannon hernandez our great sound design team and above all thank you deepak
0:33:54 chopra it’s been a very special moment for us thank you very much and i hope to see you again and
0:34:03 i hope you’re wearing that isse meyaki jacket because i just love that jacket thank you god bless oh god bless you too
0:34:09 this is remarkable people
Can AI and spirituality coexist? Deepak Chopra, world-renowned pioneer in integrative medicine and personal transformation, challenges our perceptions by embracing artificial intelligence as a spiritual tool. In this mind-expanding conversation, Chopra reveals why he believes AI represents “the most powerful technology for expanding awareness in every area” and how it’s revolutionizing our path to enlightenment. Discover how his own AI creation “Deepak Chopra.ai” serves as a digital guru, why the traditional role of spiritual teachers may be evolving, and how technology can help us answer life’s deepest questions: Who am I? What do I want? What is my purpose? What am I grateful for? Don’t miss Chopra’s profound insight that “not knowing is the highest knowing” – a gateway to infinite creativity, and don’t forget to read his new book, Digital Dharma.
—
Guy Kawasaki is on a mission to make you remarkable. His Remarkable People podcast features interviews with remarkable people such as Jane Goodall, Marc Benioff, Woz, Kristi Yamaguchi, and Bob Cialdini. Every episode will make you more remarkable.
With his decades of experience in Silicon Valley as a Venture Capitalist and advisor to the top entrepreneurs in the world, Guy’s questions come from a place of curiosity and passion for technology, start-ups, entrepreneurship, and marketing. If you love society and culture, documentaries, and business podcasts, take a second to follow Remarkable People.
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