Hinge expert shares dating advice for ambitious nerds

0:00:04 All right. So our friend, Logan Urey, she’s a behavioral scientist turned dating coach.
0:00:11 And according to the analytics on this podcast, 93% of you listeners, you’re men. And a lot of you
0:00:16 are young. And according to the data, a lot of you are also single. And so we thought it’d be
0:00:21 cool to have Logan come on to talk about dating. And it’s shockingly just like building a business
0:00:25 in that there’s actually a process that you could follow. You can iterate yourself there.
0:00:31 And Logan actually broke down how Sean and I met our spouses and gave a bunch of useful tips on how
0:00:35 to meet someone. And it’s all backed by science. And honestly, it’s pretty hilarious. So check out
0:00:51 this episode on how to meet your future spouse. All right. Logan is a behavioral scientist. I know
0:00:55 you, Logan, as just my good friend, but you also had a book called How Not to Die Alone. And now
0:01:00 you’re on this tear where you’ve become a little bit of an expert when it comes to dating, but also
0:01:04 with masculinity. I just think you’re a great conversationalist and a wonderful person. And
0:01:08 you’re really, really smart. And you have a lot of data to back a lot of your opinions.
0:01:14 And you have a Netflix show. You’re the something, something, something high up on the research side
0:01:16 at Hinge. Is that right?
0:01:20 Yeah. The director of relationship science. But sometimes people just call me the something,
0:01:21 something, something.
0:01:28 Yeah. You can put that on your LinkedIn. Sam, I got to tell you a story. I think I’ve been sitting on
0:01:34 this story for a little while. So I met Logan for the first, you know, Logan well, she’s your friend.
0:01:40 I met Logan for the first time at a conference recently. She walks up to me. I reach out my hand
0:01:46 to basically shake her hand. She goes straight for my face and just starts
0:01:53 fixing my eyebrows. Logan doesn’t, we haven’t met. She hasn’t introduced herself. She’s just fixing my
0:01:57 eyebrows for me because they’re all bushy and crazy. And then she’s like, oh, like, she’s like, my dad
0:02:03 has crazy eyebrows. And then I just go, what? And by the way, I’m sitting down like a dog. I’m sitting
0:02:08 at the lunch table. So I’m like a pet. She’s petting me. And I just thought the confidence that this
0:02:13 woman must have, she must come on the show because nobody has that confidence to do that.
0:02:14 Look, high, high agency.
0:02:16 Isn’t that an insane move?
0:02:18 That’s a high agency move.
0:02:21 It was one of the craziest things anyone’s ever done. Logan, explain yourself.
0:02:26 Wait, Sean, I think I did say, can I touch your face? But then you didn’t seem that into it. And
0:02:28 then I was like, that was the weirdo thing to do.
0:02:30 Well, did you feel more intimate with her?
0:02:31 Did you think I was going to be into it?
0:02:34 But Sean, I did make an impression on you.
0:02:38 You did. Honestly, I never forgot. I went home and my daughter, since then,
0:02:42 has just been coming up to me and doing it. And she’s like, you know what I’m doing? And I was like,
0:02:44 yeah, you’re doing the thing that girl did. She goes, yeah. And this is my five-year-old.
0:02:45 That’s so funny.
0:02:49 I couldn’t be more happy about this intro.
0:02:54 Well, I feel, Logan, I feel like you are incredibly confident, but you’re also like,
0:02:58 in a good way, you’re like conniving. I don’t know a better word, where it’s like,
0:03:03 you see like the end goal and you’re like, I’m going to experiment with this, this, this,
0:03:06 and I’m just going to follow this process. I don’t know a better word to describe it.
0:03:12 Calculating. You try things. And I think you said, you know, you, you had a bunch of clients
0:03:15 where you would teach them how to date. And you said, men were the easiest ones because you would
0:03:19 say like, look, you need to lose weight. You need to dress better. And then you need to get a haircut.
0:03:24 And I need you to then go up and say these five words to this woman. And I need you to do that 50
0:03:27 times. And they would go, yes, ma’am. And then you’d tell a woman the same thing.
0:03:31 And she’d be like, well, you’re screwed up too. Or you know what I mean? Like there was
0:03:34 like a difference of, uh, of like how people would react to your instruction.
0:03:40 Well, I think that’s why I love my first million and truly am a fan of the show. Like have listened
0:03:45 to it for years is that I think the way that the two of you see the world is that it’s a game.
0:03:50 And if you know the rules, you can win it. And I feel like a lot of the show is just teaching
0:03:55 people how to play the game. And that’s really the way that I like to think about the world.
0:04:00 And so many times I’ll be like, okay, if Sam was on my shoulder, like, what would he say? Or Sam,
0:04:05 I’ll ask you specifically for your advice on things. Because I think you sort of just like smile your way
0:04:09 through life and are like, yeah, I could figure that out. Oh, I need to get 30,000 followers on
0:04:15 Instagram. Like, duh, just do some like shirtless cold plunging videos. Oh, wait, that’s our other
0:04:15 friend.
0:04:26 But that’s how tweet. Yeah, we’re talking about South Hill blue. But that’s how that’s how but
0:04:30 that’s how you live. And I think that’s that that’s interesting. I think it’s interesting also, because
0:04:35 we have, you know, I think like we looked at our analytics the other day, 93% of our listeners are
0:04:40 men and like the majority of them are young men. And they look at dating like this impossible thing.
0:04:44 But they look at like engineering or building a businesses as very like systematic and process
0:04:46 oriented. It’s kind of the same thing, though.
0:04:51 Totally. Yes. And this is why I’m so excited to talk to the MFM audience, because I really feel
0:04:56 like I can help them with dating. Because the way that I think about it is dating is a skill. So we’re
0:05:01 born knowing how to love, we have these natural instincts, but nobody teaches you how to date. And
0:05:06 dating is actually pretty new in the span of human history. So think about how people used to get
0:05:11 married. So maybe your parcel of land touched somebody else’s parcel of land. So your dads would marry
0:05:16 you off so that they would be combined. Or it was about economic institutions. But now starting in
0:05:22 around 1800s, people started dating on their own and creating these partnerships. And so we don’t know
0:05:26 how to date, we don’t know how to pick a partner for ourselves. And I think a lot of people are failing
0:05:31 at it. And so that’s why I’m here to really help people understand that dating is a skill, and you can
0:05:31 get better at it.
0:05:36 So give us like, I don’t know, start, start with start, start with something here. So what’s the first
0:05:40 interesting thing that that you think is less understood or misunderstood?
0:05:47 Great. Yes. I’ve been thinking about your audience really as a lot of maximizers. So people who might
0:05:52 feel like they want to find the perfect partner. And so they’re going to keep searching and searching
0:05:58 until they find that person. And I too am a maximizer. It would take me months to even buy an espresso
0:06:03 machine. And so that’s even worse when it comes to people finding a partner. But the mistake that a lot
0:06:08 of people make, especially the MFM maximizer audience, is that they search for too long.
0:06:15 And so what happens is that they think, okay, well, I want to find a partner who is the hotness of this
0:06:19 girl and the ambition of this girl and the family background of this girl. And I’m just going to keep
0:06:23 searching until I find that person. And what they don’t understand is that there’s diminishing returns
0:06:28 over time. And so there’s this concept called the secretary problem. Have you heard of it?
0:06:31 Yeah. I’m using it right now to search for an apartment.
0:06:37 Perfect. Okay. So this comes from a line of mathematical inquiry called optimal stop theory,
0:06:42 which is how long should you search and when should you stop? So imagine that you’re hiring a secretary
0:06:47 and there’s a hundred candidates. You have to go through them one at a time. After each one,
0:06:53 you have to say yes or no, and you can’t go back. So at what point should you stop? So what they say
0:06:59 is you should go through the first 37 people and say, who is the single best candidate of those 37?
0:07:05 And that person now becomes your benchmark. The next time that you find someone as good or better
0:07:10 than that person, hire them. So the idea is you don’t want to go too long because then all the good
0:07:14 people might be in the past, but you don’t want to go too short because you don’t know the pool.
0:07:19 And so 37% is approximately the right amount of time. So how do you apply that to dating?
0:07:26 So imagine hypothetically, you’re going to date from ages 18 to 40. What is this 37% mark? It’s
0:07:33 about 26.1 years old. And so by the time you’re 26, you have already met, you know, a third of the
0:07:38 people and you have your benchmark person. Next time you find someone who you like as much or more than
0:07:43 them, marry that person. And this is such important advice for people, because I think that people have
0:07:47 their benchmark and then meet someone they like as much and then say, well, if they’re great,
0:07:53 I can find someone even better. And then they get to be 40, 41, 42, and all their friends are on their
0:07:58 second or third kid. And they’re still there trying to, you know, go to Vegas for the weekend and no
0:08:03 one’s available. And so I think that maximizers do really well in a lot of areas of life. But when it
0:08:06 comes to dating, they can actually get left behind in their search for perfection.
0:08:11 I think, Sean, she was at my house one time recently and like she was talking to Sarah and
0:08:17 she was like talking about maximizers. And then she was like, but Sarah, you are a settler or
0:08:17 something like that.
0:08:19 A satisficer, satisficer, yeah.
0:08:26 Yeah, she’s like, you are just okay with like, okayness, as we can see.
0:08:32 First of all, Sam and I are both obsessed with Sarah. She is wonderful. So it’s not an insult at all.
0:08:37 And actually the research shows that between maximizers and satisficers, satisficers are often
0:08:42 happier because it’s not that they settle or have a low bar. It’s that when they find something that
0:08:48 meets their bar, they just buy it or accept it or move in whatever the matter is. And so maximizers,
0:08:53 it takes them longer to make a decision. And once they make it, they question it and satisficers know
0:08:57 what they want. And then when they find it, they’re happy with it. And so I think Sarah really is a happy
0:09:04 satisficer. This makes so much sense to me. When I was younger, I started a company with my two best
0:09:10 friends. And on one hand, it was my buddy Trevor. And Trevor was like me where, now I know the word,
0:09:15 he was a maximizer. We would always go try to try new food, new restaurants. So every time we’d go out
0:09:20 to eat, we’d want to try a new place. Every time we’d try a new place, we would try to try a new dish
0:09:24 at that place. And the reality is that when you do that, you have a lot of unsatisfying lunches,
0:09:27 right? Because you try a bunch of stuff that you don’t actually like, and you’re just kind of
0:09:32 hunting for that, the satisfying feeling of once in a while finding something great. And our other
0:09:40 buddy, he would just eat kidoba all the time. And kidoba is like, aggressively mediocre. And so one day
0:09:44 he was like, yeah, I’ll never try as many foods as you, but I’ll be happier every day for lunch. And it
0:09:47 kind of stuck with me. It’s like, oh, wow, there really are two different approaches for life. I’m not
0:09:51 sure which one’s better objectively, but there’s definitely a better for me and a better for him. You know
0:09:56 what I mean? Yeah. So research from Adam Grant, the Wharton professor finds that satisficers are happier,
0:10:00 and that they make just as good of decisions. So you might think, especially someone who listens
0:10:04 to this podcast, no, no, no, but I’m going to make the better decision by searching for longer. And
0:10:07 that’s not what the research shows. Yeah. But let me ask you a question. Okay. So the secretary
0:10:12 thing makes sense to me because hiring a secretary is not like life or death stakes, but marrying the wrong
0:10:20 person, that’s probably one of the hardest decisions to untangle yourself from. And this approach you have
0:10:25 where you’re like, you should get to 26.1 years old and then marry the next best person you meet.
0:10:31 It’s cool. Sounds cool. Like, did you do that? Does anybody actually do that? That sounds insane to do.
0:10:35 I did. I mean, I did that. I shouldn’t do it. What year did you meet your wife?
0:10:37 You didn’t do it intentionally. You might’ve happened to meet somebody when you were 26. You
0:10:42 weren’t like, I’ve gone through 37% of the dating pool. I have a benchmark. All right. I’m going to,
0:10:46 if anybody’s better than Rebecca, she’s it. That wasn’t the way you thought about it.
0:10:51 What was your number of 37% though? Like, dude, I went on, I went on, I probably went on,
0:10:56 I don’t know, 20 terrible dates. Um, you know what I mean? Like 20 terrible dates,
0:11:01 two girlfriends on that, in that process. And then when I met my wife, I was like, oh wow,
0:11:05 she is not just like as good as the benchmark. I wasn’t even thinking like that. I was just like,
0:11:09 wow, she’s amazing. And I just went from, I just went to, oh, she’s amazing. I want to be with her.
0:11:14 And then that was it. It was, it was like a simple caveman, like me, like me like this,
0:11:18 you know, that, that’s how I was thinking. I wasn’t like, I wasn’t mathematic-ing my way there.
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0:11:53 grow better. All right, back to the pod.
0:12:00 So I’ll respond to that, which is that people definitely get tripped up in what you just
0:12:05 asked about, which is like, wait, I’m way past 26.1. Like, have I ruined it? It’s, it sounds very
0:12:09 mathematical, but it’s meant to be a metaphor. The idea is that you likely have already met someone
0:12:13 who would have been a great partner. Next time you find someone who you like as much, commit to that
0:12:19 person. Don’t keep searching. So the 18 to 40 as the equivalent of the secretary problem, like this
0:12:25 is very hypothetical. It’s like, no one knows how long they’ll be single for. And so the point is just
0:12:30 that when you’ve met a bunch of people and you’ve sort of gotten a sense of your attractiveness in the
0:12:34 market and what the people are like and where you live, that when you find someone great, commit to
0:12:39 them. And I’m very happy to talk about this with both of you because both of you are married with kids.
0:12:45 And there was a version of you that could have said, I’m going to wait until I’m peak fitness and
0:12:51 peak wealth and then find the best possible person I could find at that point. But instead you found
0:12:55 people when you were a bit younger, when you didn’t reach the level of success you’re at today. And that
0:13:01 person’s been on the journey with you. I think people really underestimate the opportunity cost of
0:13:05 not committing to someone when they’re younger, because when you have this partner that’s witnessing
0:13:09 your life, where you’re raising each other, where you really know them from a younger age,
0:13:11 I think there’s something so precious about that.
0:13:16 Yeah, that’s definitely true. Now, the thing you just described, it’s like, I have a batch of
0:13:19 friends in my head. I can, yeah, I’m not going to name them, but I can.
0:13:21 Are you, what would the batch being what, wealthy single guys?
0:13:26 Yeah, but basically the, um, kind of like they’re, they’re still looking and it’s like that you found
0:13:33 a lot, but you’re still not committing. Right. So they’re becoming 37, 41, 44. And then they’re just
0:13:37 not committing. And it’s sort of like, I don’t, I think they need to think more like the secretary.
0:13:43 Peter pans. They’re Peter pans. Exactly. A little bit commitment phobic, a little bit
0:13:47 like maximizer. Like, is there something better out there? Um, they might even be in a relationship.
0:13:50 They’re just not, they’re neither in all the way in or all the way out. Okay. So I’ve
0:13:54 definitely seen that. On the other hand, there’s a group of people who I feel like
0:13:58 they might get to 26 and they have not actually gone through 37% of the daily pool. Cause they’re
0:14:03 just not putting up numbers. There’s, they’re very low volume interactions with, uh, you know,
0:14:06 with, with the, with the other sex. And I think there’s a bunch of studies about this right now,
0:14:11 how like, you know, X percent of men under the age of 30, haven’t even asked anyone out. Like,
0:14:16 you know, or they’re just like sort of haven’t dated in years or things like that. So what about that side
0:14:20 of the, the, the, the barbell, the, the, the problem, what’s your kind of take or, or what have
0:14:24 you learned for that, that group of people? Yeah, that’s a great segue. If we want to talk
0:14:29 about what’s happening with modern men, which is a topic that I’m pursuing and that I’m really
0:14:35 passionate about. And so it just reminds me Sean of this story where I was doing this Valentine’s
0:14:40 day thing for good morning America. And I was talking to the, one of the participants and I was
0:14:44 like, you know, how many dates you go on? This is like a really good looking guy. And he’s like, well,
0:14:49 at night, I think I could either edit videos, which will help me achieve my career goals for YouTube,
0:14:53 or it can go on a date that might be bad. So I choose editing the videos. And I was like,
0:14:59 I am terrified about society. Like this guy who should be out there killing it is like, well,
0:15:03 my YouTube views are more of a sure thing. So anyway, I think we have a lot of issues that we
0:15:09 need to talk about, but what we’re seeing in the data is that young men are falling behind.
0:15:15 There’s this report from the UK called the Lost Boys Report. It shows that among men in the UK,
0:15:21 16 through 24, one in seven are NEAT, which stands for non-education, employment, or training.
0:15:27 And this number went up 40% during the pandemic for men, only 7% for women across all of these
0:15:31 metrics. Enrolling in college, graduating from college, earning money, young men are really
0:15:36 falling behind. So this is an issue for people in this age group. And if you project it out to
0:15:43 10 years from now, it’s going to be an even bigger issue because women are into hypergamous mating,
0:15:49 which means that women want to find someone who’s equal or higher level of status and financial
0:15:53 success than them. And for most of human history, that’s worked out well, right? Because the guys
0:15:59 had the resources and the women married them. But now as women are out earning men and being more
0:16:04 educated than men, there just literally isn’t this pool of men for them to date. And so there’s this
0:16:10 mating crisis where women are like, where’s the guy on my level? And they just aren’t there.
0:16:16 So right now, 60% of enrollment in college is women. Soon it’s going to be two thirds. So what
0:16:21 that means is that when it’s two thirds women, half of those women won’t have an equivalent guy
0:16:26 with a college degree. So you really have an issue where women want a certain type of guy and that guy
0:16:32 doesn’t exist. And I’m already seeing this. So many of my friends are attractive, confident,
0:16:36 successful women in their late thirties, early forties. They’re just not dating. They’re just
0:16:42 aren’t guys. I live in the Bay area. You know, who’s available to them? Polyamorous guys who are
0:16:47 like, yeah, you can have a third of me. And so this woman has to say, do I want zero of a guy or do I want
0:16:52 a third of a good guy? And I truly think that this is part of the reason why we’re seeing the rise of
0:16:58 poly relationships is that there’s just not enough great guys. And so we have this crisis and we’re
0:17:04 already seeing the impact of it. So the marriage rate is nearing an all time low in the US. The
0:17:09 fertility rate has dropped 20% in 20 years. And so truly, if fewer people are getting together,
0:17:14 fewer marriages, fewer babies, this is actually a crisis for humanity.
0:17:19 Did you see how, do you guys remember a six, four blue eyes trust fund? Remember that song?
0:17:19 Six, five.
0:17:20 Six, five.
0:17:22 It’s somewhat like-
0:17:23 Inflation. What are you doing here?
0:17:29 And someone like, someone like did the math and they were like, this is like 20 men in New York
0:17:34 City. Like, you know, if you like do the analysis of like, you need to have a trust fund, you need to
0:17:38 be single, you need to be in your twenties, you need to be at least six, five, and you know, whatever.
0:17:45 Work in finance, it was like 20 people. Is there a thing, I think I read somewhere, I think I talked
0:17:49 to my friend Amanda, who ran the league. And then my friend Dawoon, who had a dating app called
0:17:52 OkCupid. And she was telling me about how-
0:17:53 Oh, she, yeah, she had Coffee Meets Bagel.
0:17:58 Sorry, Coffee Meets Bagel. And she was telling me how, and I think you told me this at Hinge,
0:18:03 and you have a lot of this data, that like, it’s basically just a few, like, women all get likes.
0:18:07 It doesn’t matter if you’re like a two out of 10 or a 10 out of 10. It’s like kind of a binary
0:18:12 system for men, which is like, yeah, I would. I would love to go out with you for-
0:18:14 Is that what I would means?
0:18:17 I would love to take you on a romantic date.
0:18:21 Yeah. Like, I would love to, I would love to hang out with you. Uh, and for women or
0:18:26 for men, it was like, you know, 5% or something like dominated. It was like a winner’s take
0:18:28 all market. What’s that data behind that?
0:18:33 Yeah. So one stat I can tell you is that a lot of women set their height filter at six
0:18:39 feet or taller. And only 14% of the men in the U.S. are six feet or taller. So you have
0:18:42 women coming up to me at dinner parties, holding up their phone saying, I’m on Hinge. Where’s
0:18:46 my husband? Where is he? And I’m like, yeah, he can’t even get into your app because he’s
0:18:52 five, nine and you’re filtering him out. It’s like your app is a bounce. Your app is a club
0:18:56 and your filters are a bouncer filtering him out. And so I do think that apps have perpetuated
0:19:00 this thing where, because you can set filters, which maybe you think about for 30 seconds,
0:19:04 you’re like, yeah, six feet is good. And then you don’t even realize the implications of that.
0:19:10 And then when you multiply that across millions of people who are using apps, then yes, a disproportionate
0:19:14 amount of attention goes to these guys over six feet. And then the other guys are sitting there
0:19:19 waiting to hear back from someone. I used to set my filter to like a really tall woman because I
0:19:24 wanted to increase my odds. You know, like, have you ever seen, Sean, a, uh, have you ever seen
0:19:31 like the odds of what? Like making a basketball player that and meeting someone? Have you ever seen
0:19:36 like the, uh, the backend of like a woman’s app? Oh, you were like, I’ll go fishing over here.
0:19:40 Yes. Not a lot of people over here. Yeah. Like there’s not a lot of people who set their default
0:19:45 to five, 10 for a woman. Have you ever seen the bat? Like, have you ever seen a woman? I, you know,
0:19:50 I haven’t dated in 10 plus years, but have you ever seen like Tinder? Like every person she clicks on
0:19:55 is a yes. Oh, like when they swipe right, it’s a match, but for guys, you’re like, swipe, swipe,
0:19:59 swipe, swipe, swipe, no match. It’s basically a math. 100% of the time, Logan, isn’t it?
0:20:05 No, it totally depends on who the woman is. And it also, that’s not exactly how the algorithm works
0:20:09 because they don’t only show you people who have already said yes to you. So it wouldn’t be like
0:20:14 that. But I think like, certainly for certain women, they get so many more people interested
0:20:19 in them than they could ever go through. And then I would swipe. Yes. I would do a hundred.
0:20:25 Okay. Sam, we know, you know, hot women. You can just put your status as like, listen,
0:20:32 if you’re seeing me, I’m interested. Yeah. And I would get no yeses. Like none. Yeah. Yeah. Dude.
0:20:37 When I was on a dating app, it was brutal, but that was like, I was like, I was so old that like,
0:20:40 it’s back in the day when you had to handwrite messages to each person. There was no swiping.
0:20:48 I was on OkCupid. Handwrite. Yeah. So let’s play a game. If I’m, let’s start with, I’m a guy on the
0:20:54 dating app and then we’re going to do, I’m a girl on the dating app. What, what are the simple things I
0:20:59 should be doing differently to increase my odds of success? And you’re the director of relationship
0:21:05 science at Hinge. So if anyone should know it’s you. Great. Yeah. I’m actually going to answer that by
0:21:10 saying like what everyone should be doing. And then I have specific like guy things. Okay. So let’s just
0:21:15 talk really quickly about a great profile. So your profile is far and beyond the thing that matters the
0:21:19 most because it’s like you were buying a billboard on the one-on-one in the Bay area. Like what are you
0:21:25 going to put on that expensive billboard? So you want to have a really good first photo that
0:21:29 clearly shows your face, no filters, no sunglasses, and you should invest in a good photo. It doesn’t
0:21:34 have to be a professional photo, but people want to see what you look like. And honestly, the quality of
0:21:39 male profiles is so low that if you just follow these instructions, you’re going to be better off
0:21:44 than 90% of guys. Are you talking like, it’s like you’re dressed up? Is it casual? Dog?
0:21:49 It doesn’t have to be dressed up, but it’s like good lighting. Um, maybe have a friend take it in
0:21:56 portrait mode. It should not be like inside grainy, anything like that. Have you ever just asked a
0:22:00 friend to take a photo of you with good lighting? I have never done that in my life. So like my pool
0:22:04 of pictures is zero. That’s why you need female friends. Dude, I’d rather go to the dentist than ask
0:22:10 a friend to take a picture of me. That’s so funny. So, okay. At some point, your mom takes a good
0:22:16 picture of you and you upload it. Then you want one picture of you with your friends because we need
0:22:20 to see that you have a social life. It could be friends or family. Do you know this meme from a
0:22:25 long time ago of like 10 white guys at a baseball game and each of them is like popping their head
0:22:29 out a little bit more. It’s like, you don’t want a photo where you all look the same, but we should be
0:22:33 able to see like, this is what your life is like. Then one of you doing an activity that you like,
0:22:38 maybe you’re into hiking, cooking. I know this probably seems so awkward for guys. Like,
0:22:44 how am I going to get these photos? But it really does matter. I heard this story about when this
0:22:49 woman saw this guy’s app profile and it was like all Burning Man pictures. And she’s like,
0:22:53 I’m not into Burning Man at all. And then she swiped left. And then a few years later,
0:22:57 she met him and she really liked him. And now they’re married. And when they talked about it,
0:23:00 he’s like, oh yeah, I only went to Burning Man once. I didn’t like it, but those were the only
0:23:03 photos I had. Right. So he didn’t realize like that it was really sending him back.
0:23:09 We have a photo crisis. Do you guys do just like, do you guys do a like Hinge just pop up? Like,
0:23:14 hey guys, listen, we know, we know you got nothing. Okay. Just come, come here on Saturday morning.
0:23:17 You’re going to get your picture for Hinge. Like, do you guys do that? Like, is there a thing like that?
0:23:22 No, but at the next My First Million event, you should have a photographer there who’s taking
0:23:23 app profile photos. That’s a great idea.
0:23:35 What’s the ratio of photos that you have of you and your children versus your wife and your children?
0:23:40 Because I know at my house, Sarah is always the one taking the pictures. And I would not in a million years
0:23:42 pull out my phone and be like, here, let me capture this for you.
0:23:46 Yeah. Well, she asks like all the time for me, like, hey, take this picture.
0:23:50 That’s so funny. That’s like my main feedback for my husband. You don’t take enough pictures of me
0:23:54 with my daughter. It’s so funny. Sarah’s like, I have no photos of me and our baby. Like,
0:23:57 can you please start taking more photos? Yes. Seriously.
0:24:02 Man, just don’t do it. So you’re saying profile matters the most. Get a good, get, uh, get
0:24:07 your hero shot, which is you. You can see your face. Good lighting. Great activity picture. Great.
0:24:12 You and your friends, but not you and five identical friends. Perfect. Like you got to have some,
0:24:16 some, uh, diversity here. So get some, get, you want to stand out in that picture. Are we talking,
0:24:19 you know, what’s that theory where it’s like, you know, you want to be the hottest out of your
0:24:23 group or somebody, you know, like, Oh yeah. Are you like conniving like that? Can we go
0:24:28 Machiavellian and just, there is a funny theory in behavioral science, which is that people don’t
0:24:32 make decisions in a vacuum. They make decisions through comparison. Right. So if you have a friend
0:24:35 who looks like you, but it’s slightly less attractive, then that’ll make you look even
0:24:41 more attractive. But I wouldn’t say I’ve tried that in the wild, but there is some, uh, data to
0:24:45 back that up. All right. So call over. We even told him, we were like, you’re the ugly friend,
0:24:49 dude. You just got to come. It was like, dude, either I’m at the bottom or I’m going to the middle
0:24:53 and guess what? Chaos is a ladder, baby. You’re going to the bottom. I’m in the middle now.
0:24:59 And then on hinge, there’s these prompts that you fill out, which are icebreakers. And I really feel
0:25:03 like this is a chance for a lot of guys to shine because so many profiles I look at are just pretty
0:25:08 weak here. So you want to have a mixture of humor and vulnerability. So you can be funny. You can be
0:25:13 sarcastic. You can give your hot takes, but then also have some where you show that you also have a heart
0:25:19 and you’re not just silly. And hinge now has this AI profile feedback tool, which will say something
0:25:24 like go deeper, say a little bit more. And so you can just really think about what are the three things
0:25:30 that I want to get across in my profile? Maybe the fact that you’re family oriented, that you love the
0:25:35 warriors and that you’re really into cooking. We’ll make sure through your profile pictures and your
0:25:41 prompts that you’re getting that across. What else can a guy do to stand out on these? Yeah. So then
0:25:45 the next thing is that, especially for people who aren’t getting a lot of matches besides your profile,
0:25:49 which is the number one thing you should send comments with your likes because it really helps
0:25:53 you stand out. So if you’re a guy who’s like, I’m just not getting that many matches. I’m just going to
0:25:58 go for quantity. I’m just going to send a bunch of likes. Well, it’s much better to send a thoughtful
0:26:04 comment with that because you’re more likely to stand out. Another insider tip that I’ve heard is that
0:26:09 guys are often lazy and they only comment on like the first picture or the first prompt on a girl’s
0:26:14 profile. So if you actually scroll down and you comment on something lower, you’ll have a higher
0:26:19 chance of being more original because fewer people have just ever commented on that.
0:26:24 And how do you comment without being just like totally thirsty or just lame? So what’s a good
0:26:25 comment versus bad comment there?
0:26:31 Okay. So there’s this line from Chris Rock, which is, if a girl’s name is Eve, don’t walk up to her and
0:26:35 say, hi, I’m Adam. She’s heard that a million times. So in standup comedy, you might think like the best
0:26:39 joke is like the third punchline you come up with because the first or second other people can come
0:26:44 up with it. So the person has a picture of themselves skiing and says, where was this taken? Don’t say,
0:26:49 I think it’s Whistler. It’s like, cool, you and everyone else. But like, if you can write back
0:26:54 something witty about like, okay, I’m going to challenge you to a black diamond or whatever people
0:27:00 who ski say, then it’s a much better way of getting into a conversation. And so really you’re trying to
0:27:04 show your value here. You’re trying to show your level of wit and humor and you don’t have to
0:27:09 overthink it, but just what is a way to get into a conversation with someone, especially something
0:27:11 that not every other guy has already said.
0:27:17 It seems so much easier. If I look at the math of you saying like, what was the stat? How many women
0:27:22 have been approached in real life or how many men approach? Uh, what was it like? Most, most men
0:27:29 zero. Yeah. In real life. So then wouldn’t it be just so much, like I met my wife in a real life
0:27:34 setting. It just, and even back then when this was less common, but still common, it just seems so much
0:27:39 easier to meet people by just kind of pretending that you’re confident. And like, even just say,
0:27:44 like, like, she’s just saying hi to them. Like it just, it was so much easier that way. Can we just,
0:27:46 shouldn’t we just teach guys to do that?
0:27:51 I think this is a big issue in modern dating is almost everyone I talked to is like, I want to meet
0:27:55 someone the old fashioned way. I’m romantic. I don’t want to meet someone on the app. But then
0:27:59 if you ask them, if they’re meeting people in real life, they basically say no. And last summer there
0:28:03 was like the run clubs, everyone’s meeting at run clubs. Like I haven’t met a single couple that met
0:28:08 through the run club. So I think we’re having this issue with Gen Z where they don’t necessarily want
0:28:13 to be on apps. They want to be meeting people in real life, but they don’t have the social skills to do
0:28:18 it. And so there’s this huge problem with the younger daters that I talked to where they lack
0:28:23 rejection resilience. So, you know, this goes down a whole pathway of parenting, but you know,
0:28:28 they had these helicopter parents, they had these snowplow parents that kind of plowed the way for
0:28:32 them and they never had to deal with issues. They had colleges that bended to every will. And if their
0:28:38 dog had an ear infection, they didn’t have to turn in a paper. You have these workplaces where they can
0:28:43 take a sick day, you know, for any random reason. And then you want the person to go up to someone at a
0:28:47 coffee shop, be able to deal with rejection. Like they don’t have the skills to do that. And so, yes,
0:28:53 if everyone listened to this, got really good at approaching women and making them feel both
0:28:57 comfortable and flattered and had a good opening line, like bring on the babies, that would be great.
0:29:03 But people are lacking the social skills right now to do that. And I think in a post Me Too era,
0:29:07 there is this fine line between confident and creepy that people have not figured out yet.
0:29:15 All right, folks, this is a quick plug for a podcast called I Digress. If you’re trying to
0:29:20 grow your business, but feel like you’re drowning in buzzwords and BS, then check out the I Digress
0:29:26 podcast. It’s hosted by this guy named Troy Sandage. He’s helped launch over 35 brands that drive $175
0:29:30 million in revenue. So if you want to get smarter about scaling your business, listen to I Digress
0:29:33 wherever you get your podcasts. All right, back to the pod.
0:29:38 How did you meet your wife, Sean, in real life or app?
0:29:42 Yeah, in real life. But she was, she was like best friends growing up with my cousin. And so
0:29:46 through like, kind of like, I was there to do something for my cousin, she was there to do
0:29:51 something for my cousin, we kind of bumped into each other that way. And then I was like,
0:29:56 that was a much easier thing, because I didn’t have to like approach with a pickup line. It’s like,
0:30:00 I had like an hour where we’re hanging out. And I just had to try to make her laugh. Like,
0:30:02 sorry, if I get this girl to laugh three times in this hour, this is going to be,
0:30:06 you know, that’s pretty good. All right, that’s my goal. And so I was just trying to be as
0:30:08 entertaining and, you know, fun as possible for an hour.
0:30:14 So there’s this concept called the power of weak ties, which is the idea that you’re much more likely
0:30:19 to get a job from an acquaintance than from one of your close friends, because your close friends have
0:30:24 such overlapping lives with you that they know the same opportunities you know. But an acquaintance who
0:30:28 you met at a wedding a few years ago, and are still our Instagram friends with, they might know
0:30:33 something that you don’t know. And the same thing is true with dating. So Sam, you didn’t meet or
0:30:37 Sean, you didn’t meet your wife through, you know, your siblings, best friend, you know, it was your
0:30:43 cousin. And so one thing that people listening to this can do is can they can expand their network. So
0:30:49 leave your house, go out, make new friends, meet people, volunteer, join the boards of things,
0:30:53 the more friends and acquaintances and wider the network is, the more chance that you will have a weak
0:30:58 tie who will eventually introduce you to your spouse. And one of the reasons I was so excited
0:31:04 for this conversation is that I love teaching people the strategies that Sam did to meet Sarah,
0:31:08 which I can happily summarize or Sam, if you want to summarize, we can do that too.
0:31:11 I think you should do it. I want to hear your take on this.
0:31:16 Okay, this is my like Sam super fandom. But one thing that Sam did that I really like, because I think
0:31:22 it shows vulnerability, but it also is very masculine is that Sam’s like, how can I be the most
0:31:27 attractive mate possible? I’m going to make myself more interesting. And so Sam really planted a lot
0:31:32 of seeds and really worked on being more interesting. So he was like, wow, like when I talk about my
0:31:37 interest in denim, and then I’m going to a denim meet, then women seem to be into that. So he was
0:31:41 genuinely passionate about it. But he also knew to talk about it. He was also like, well, I’m not making
0:31:46 that much money right now. But I want to show that I have a growth mindset and that you know, I’m very
0:31:51 ambitious. And like, you know, potentially, I’ll be successful long term. Sam also likes to test out
0:31:55 his stories. Well, how do I know what the best story is? How do I know what the funniest story is,
0:32:01 I’m going to practice it over time and get better at it. And so I think that if somebody is a super fan
0:32:05 of both of you, they might think, oh, these guys are just so smooth. I bet it was so easy for them. But
0:32:11 you were intentional, Sam, about being the best possible, most attractive mate. And then you snagged a
0:32:11 baddie.
0:32:18 Well, I want to say, first of all, I have three things to say. The first one is, thank you. The second one is that
0:32:22 I realized that effort goes a long way. And that the best way to be attractive to a woman
0:32:28 is to work on myself and bring them along with my life, which hopefully is full of interesting
0:32:33 things. And even if it’s like something as nerdy as denim, the best thing about being a man when it
0:32:36 comes to attracting a woman is if you’re passionate about anything, it doesn’t matter how lame it is.
0:32:42 That’s kind of attractive. And the third thing is that you have to also, if you’re going to say all
0:32:45 these positive things, you have to say the line that I use to meet her.
0:32:47 No, I don’t want to bring it up.
0:32:49 So you’re acting like I’m like…
0:32:51 Quick, cut to a HubSpot commercial.
0:32:52 Okay.
0:32:54 Sean, do you know what this line is?
0:32:56 I know this line. I can’t believe he’s voluntarily saying this right now.
0:32:58 Me neither. I thought we were going to skip over this.
0:33:03 No, I don’t mind saying it. And so basically my wife, Sarah, she walked into the…
0:33:07 And we were at like a happy hour. She walked in. I was with my friend, Lily. I go, Lily,
0:33:13 that woman, she looks fantastic. I’m not leaving until she talks to me. And as I was saying that,
0:33:17 she comes up to me and I didn’t know what to say in time. And so I said, excuse me,
0:33:22 what’s the difference between a chickpea and a lintel? And she looks at her friend and she’s like,
0:33:27 I don’t know. And I was like, I don’t pay $500 to have a lintel on my face. And for those of us today,
0:33:32 I’m talking about a chickpea on my face. And she like gasped. And I was like,
0:33:40 classic hummus joke. Am I right? And hi, I’m Sam. Nice to meet you. And it absolutely helped.
0:33:43 Oh my God. We need a warning label that says, do not try this at home.
0:33:47 Yeah. But just say, just say you hit the skip button and move forward 30 seconds. If you just
0:33:52 never want to change the way you look at Sam again, Sam, why did you say that? By the way,
0:33:55 had you said that before? Why would that be the first thing to come to mind?
0:33:56 I don’t remember reading that in the game.
0:33:58 What an absurd line.
0:34:00 I don’t, I don’t know. It just came to me.
0:34:03 Like, where did you read that? Where did that even come from?
0:34:08 I don’t remember how, a friend like told me that joke. I don’t remember, but I thought it would have
0:34:09 worked. But here’s another thing.
0:34:10 He’s a hummus sexual.
0:34:17 Yeah. I’m a freak. I had just finished a cross country motorcycle trip literally the day before.
0:34:23 And I had all these pictures. This was in 2014. I had all these pictures on Facebook of my cross
0:34:27 country motorcycle trip. And so instead of asking for her phone number, I was like, here, let me friend
0:34:33 you on Facebook and we’ll talk there. And I like, so I like front loaded, like my photos with all these,
0:34:39 like where I looked cool. And so that also helped. But so I did try all those things that you said were
0:34:44 true. And also I’m still a filthy, filthy animal. And I say things like I said, and it also worked.
0:34:48 Let me give the postgame analysis of that. So I wouldn’t recommend that line because I think it
0:34:52 could definitely be misinterpreted, but at least you had the guts to say something.
0:34:55 Misinterpreted. I think it’d be interpreted perfectly.
0:35:01 It’s true. I mean, Sarah knew what she was signing up for. I feel like you’re consistent, but I think
0:35:07 so this is feels like a very of the moment thing, which is that if you just sit at home waiting for
0:35:12 the perfect line, then you’ll never approach someone. Sam did not have the perfect line, but he just said
0:35:16 something and it made an impression. And I feel like what you said about effort is exactly right.
0:35:21 And so in a lot of the research I’ve been doing this year about how men and women are becoming
0:35:27 increasingly polarized, right? So women are way more liberal than men right now in how they voted.
0:35:32 People used to vote across racial lines and now they’re actually voting across gender lines. For
0:35:38 the first time in history, men in the U.S. are more religious. They’re more likely to go to church than
0:35:43 women. And we’re just seeing that men and women are really being polarized. So how do we actually get
0:35:49 people to connect and create these couples, have babies, et cetera? So one thing through my research is
0:35:53 that men think, oh, women expect me to be perfect. I have to be tall, financially successful, all these
0:35:58 things. What the women are saying is like, we just want you to put some effort in. Just remember my
0:36:03 coffee order, know the name of my best friend at work. And I feel like effort is just underappreciated.
0:36:09 And as I said, if you have a good profile, that’s a seven out of 10, you’re still way ahead of a lot of
0:36:15 the guys out there. And so I think when it comes to the basic things that men can do, here’s a list of a
0:36:22 few of them. So a lot of women say to me, I go on dates that are ZQ, zero questions. They ask the
0:36:27 guy tons of questions and the guys didn’t ask them a single question. And then when I talk to guys,
0:36:31 hey, how did this happen? They say, well, she asked me a question. If she wanted to answer it,
0:36:35 she should have just answered it already. And I was like, no, ask her the question back. Make her feel
0:36:40 interesting. I think that’s a huge tip. Make people feel interesting.
0:36:45 Have you guys seen Love on the Spectrum? All the autistic kids, they all say the same thing at
0:36:48 first. And it’s the greatest line ever. I guess like they’re taught in a dating school or something
0:36:54 and they say, so what are your interests? And they all say that. And it’s the best line ever. And it
0:36:58 just, it’s just such a good interest. Or it’s just such a good line. I’m obsessed with Love on the
0:37:01 Spectrum. So what are your interests? Like if I said that to someone or someone said that to me,
0:37:03 I’d be like, how much time you got? I can go all day.
0:37:12 So I think this goes back to like the Dale Carnegie stuff, but be interested, not interesting. People
0:37:16 think I have to have the best stories. I have to have the Facebook photos of my motorcycle trip. No,
0:37:20 you know what people actually want to do? They want to talk about themselves, ask them questions,
0:37:25 seem very interested in them. And that will make the other person like you. There’s all this research
0:37:30 that in conversations where one person is talking a lot and the other person is asking questions,
0:37:33 the first person thinks, wow, that other person’s a great conversationalist. And what that actually
0:37:38 means is they made me feel interesting and important. And so I think that there’s so much
0:37:43 that men can do just by asking questions, asking follow-up questions, seeming really interested in
0:37:49 somebody and remembering stuff. If a girl says on a date, I have a big project that’s due on Tuesday,
0:37:54 then text her Monday night or Tuesday morning and say, how did that go? These little things go so far.
0:37:59 Yeah. I think what I’m hearing is, you know, in this podcast, we talk about certain businesses where
0:38:03 you go into a space and it’s just like, there’s like a sleepy incumbent, you know,
0:38:06 that maybe everybody in that space is still operating on pen and paper. They don’t do any
0:38:10 marketing. And it just feels like, oh man, you’re shooting fish in a barrel. Like if you just go and
0:38:16 you just try, you just do the basics, you will clean up in that area. It basically sounds that like
0:38:20 dating is like this. I think in most, most of my single friends, the way they talk about dating is
0:38:24 almost like it’s this impossible game, but Hey, I’m still putting up, I’m still fighting the good
0:38:29 fight. And then I hear what you’re talking about. I’m like, oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Actually
0:38:34 nobody tries in a way that matters. So like, you know, my same friends who are talking about it,
0:38:39 like it’s an impossible game. If I bet, if I asked them, I’m like, Hey, when’s the last time
0:38:43 you updated your profile? Like, let me just see your profile real quick. How much effort did you put
0:38:47 into this? And it’s like, yo, you know, this is the, this is your landing page. This is what
0:38:51 everybody is seeing. This is how they’re making their decisions. And you put 14 minutes of work into it
0:38:55 when you were signing up, just speeding through to get on the app and then you never really touched
0:39:00 it again. Well, that’s the problem, right? Like you’re just not investing the effort in the simple
0:39:04 things that are going to make a difference. And everything you said, like, even if you just throw
0:39:08 out any of the specifics, it’s not about the good lighting or it’s not about the photo with the
0:39:13 friends and whatever. It’s literally like, try on the things that matter. Sounds like, uh, you know,
0:39:18 the biggest takeaway and that most people are either not trying or they’re trying on the things that
0:39:21 don’t matter. They’re trying in things that like, they’re spending a lot of time swiping,
0:39:24 but that’s not the thing that’s going to help you, uh, actually find somebody.
0:39:29 Yes. Sean, I love your ability to really summarize and bring out the most important points. And I
0:39:34 think try on the things that matter is an incredible headline for this because yes, if you are taller,
0:39:38 will you have an advantage on the app? A hundred percent. That is a bias that is baked into these
0:39:43 filters. But if you just give up because you’re not over six feet tall, then that’s a choice that
0:39:48 you’re making. Why not have a better profile? Why not have a friend take pictures of you? Even if
0:39:52 it’s, you know, more embarrassing or painful than going to the dentist, why not send comments
0:39:56 with likes? If you really are serious about finding someone, then there are just basic things that you
0:40:01 can do that will set you ahead of most other men. Right. And you only need one, which is my favorite
0:40:05 thing about a lot of the best things in life. Like, you know, business success. I failed for nine years
0:40:09 and then I had one and all of a sudden I was a millionaire. It’s like, oh, yeah, I only needed
0:40:13 one. Like, I didn’t need all of these to work. I needed one to work. Same thing with dating. You only
0:40:17 need one to work really to make it work. But it definitely, it definitely helps to put up numbers
0:40:21 though. I think like I, I like, I remember dating and I was like, when it rains, it pours. Like I
0:40:25 remember when I was able to get one person interested in me, I would be more confident that I’d go after
0:40:29 more and more and more. And I was like, oh, I’m killing it. And I’m like, why did I do this
0:40:33 earlier? And, but it’s hard to get to go for that first one. It’s really hard. Like the rejection.
0:40:37 And Sam, you also knew where to stop because there’s a version where you were like, if I can
0:40:41 get Sarah, who else can I can get? And instead you were like, I could get Sarah. Like, hell yeah,
0:40:46 this is my wife. Logan, you have this thing called date, like a scientist. What does that mean?
0:40:51 Yes. I definitely think that this is sort of the, my first million approach to dating. So date,
0:40:56 like a scientist just means be willing to run experiments and see what works. So if the business
0:41:01 equivalent is throwing up a landing page or running some Google ads, then that’s what this is in
0:41:09 dating. So let’s say that I’m coaching a guy and he says, okay, well, I need a woman who has a graduate
0:41:14 degree. Then I’ll say, okay, date like a scientist, date someone without graduate degrees. Maybe what
0:41:17 you’re actually looking for is someone who’s intellectually curious and you’re using a graduate
0:41:22 degree as a proxy for that. Let’s just have you date other types of people and see what happens.
0:41:26 I do this for women around dating guys who have a different job than they expected,
0:41:30 or shorter than they expected. And so the whole point is that as we get older,
0:41:35 we get clearer and clearer on what we think we want in a relationship. And I have people that walk into
0:41:40 my office and say, here’s a spreadsheet of all the women I’ve dated over the last 10 years. And I know
0:41:45 exactly what I want. I want a five, seven skinny redhead who’s Jewish and plays tennis. And I’m like,
0:41:50 I think you’re wrong. I think that’s what you think you want, but let’s actually test and see
0:41:55 who actually makes you happy long-term. And so date like a scientist is being willing to
0:42:00 run experiments, being proven right or wrong, and actually get clearer on who’s going to make you
0:42:03 happy long-term instead of assuming that you know.
0:42:09 Is there any science of, like I always, a lot of my friends are Indian and their parents had
0:42:15 arranged marriages and many of them are just lovely couples and they’re very happy. And I’ve always
0:42:20 thought life’s a lot better when you have less choice. And so the way that I went into marriage,
0:42:25 it was like, this is forever. There is no such thing as like divorce, like, you know,
0:42:28 cause I’m like Irish Catholic background and that’s just like what you’re taught.
0:42:32 And for some reason, I think that you’re happier that way where you’re like, if I’m miserable,
0:42:35 it’s just like, yeah, that’s fine. I’m going to be miserable and hopefully I’ll make it better
0:42:40 versus like, well, I wonder, are there other options? Uh, there’s something about
0:42:46 finality or like no other choice that I think makes me happier. Is there anything?
0:42:52 Yeah, there is a lot of research on that. So when you compare love marriages versus arranged marriages,
0:42:58 love marriages usually start off happier, but around the five year mark, arranged marriages are
0:43:03 happier. And it’s exactly what you said, Sam. It’s the fact that you’re committed and you’re in it
0:43:08 and you don’t consider failure as an option. Okay. So my husband’s working too much and I feel
0:43:13 stressed out and I miss him. I’m going to commit to working out this thing with him versus giving up.
0:43:18 And there are nuances to the data and it depends on whether or not the culture allows for divorce and
0:43:23 things like that. But I think the point is that when you think about things as temporary, you just
0:43:28 don’t commit to them as much. So I was at, oh, actually that dialogue conference. And this guy was
0:43:35 like, I think that, um, marriages should be like cell phone contracts and every seven years you decide to
0:43:39 recommit or not. And there should be a conversation. And I was like, that’s a cute thing to say, but
0:43:44 that’s not what the research supports. Because if you have an apartment versus owning a home,
0:43:48 are you going to put wallpaper on the wall? Are you going to get a new dishwasher? No,
0:43:52 you’re going to be like, this is temporary. I have one foot out the door, but when you own your home
0:43:56 and when you’re really committed, you invest a lot in it because you think about it as a forever
0:44:01 investment. And so when you really think about I’m committed, I’m in this, I’m going to do whatever
0:44:07 it takes to work. Then that really produces better long term results. I’m on this Warren Buffett kick
0:44:10 because he just retired. And so I’m rereading a bunch of Warren Buffett books. And he’s got this
0:44:17 thing where he tells his managers as well as to as any aspiring entrepreneurs. They ask him, how do I
0:44:21 build a great company? Because Berkshire Hathaway is famous for buying great companies. And he said
0:44:28 three things. I need you to act like this business is the only business that you own. You are not allowed
0:44:34 to have any other business. The second thing you need to act and assume that your entire net worth
0:44:40 is in this business. And number three, assume that you can’t sell this business for at least the next
0:44:46 50 years. And if you do that, I think you’ll make better decisions. And it’s kind of funny how what
0:44:50 you’re saying for dating and what Warren says for business and what I think a lot of us know for
0:44:56 business is a lot of the similar things. I want to add one thing to that, which is that I was at a
0:45:01 Jewish Indian wedding this past weekend. And it was really beautiful. And especially my friend who’s
0:45:05 Indian, her parents live in Atlanta and they didn’t have any other family there, but they have built
0:45:11 this beautiful, this beautiful community around them called potluck. And you can just see the power of
0:45:15 the community. So during the Sangeet, so many people from the potluck community were dancing and
0:45:20 the children of potluck are all friends. And I think people underestimate how important it is
0:45:25 to have a community around you because we are not meant to just be married and just have this one
0:45:31 person that fulfills all of our goals and every aspect of our lives. We need a community to support
0:45:36 us, to talk shit about our partner with, to help us when one person is sick, to help us with child care.
0:45:41 And so I think just watching this beautiful Indian community who really showed up for this wedding
0:45:47 and really helped shape the bride into who she is, it really inspired me to invest even more in my
0:45:48 community.
0:45:51 What are you going to say, Sean?
0:45:55 Well, I was going to ask about like, all right, so I’m just thinking about my friends who are single
0:45:58 and I’m trying to think if I was going to send them this episode, how would I make it? What
0:46:02 question would I ask to make it most valuable for them? All right, so here’s two scenarios.
0:46:10 Scenario one, go on a date. It was good, but it wasn’t like, wow, I met the one that was my soulmate,
0:46:15 right? You don’t have that level of absolute clarity and conviction. So what is the post-date
0:46:21 psychology? So I went on a date. How should I be thinking post-date in order to, you know,
0:46:26 I want to have, I want to give things a chance, but I also don’t want to string things along if I’m
0:46:29 settling for something that’s not really what I want. Don’t you have a thing on that, Logan?
0:46:34 Yeah, yeah, that is kind of my tagline. Go ahead. Yeah. So Sean, I have this sort of tagline called
0:46:40 fuck the spark, which is this idea that through doing 10 years of coaching, I’ll talk to a guy,
0:46:44 I’ll help him with the date. He’ll come over my house afterwards. I’ll say, how was it? And he’ll say,
0:46:48 she was great. She was beautiful. It was fun. I’m never going to see her again. I’m like,
0:46:52 are you crazy? What are you talking about? And he’s like, I just didn’t feel the spark.
0:46:57 And so the spark has become my nemesis where people expect to show up and feel this rom-com
0:47:03 moment of butterflies and rainbows, and they will give up if they don’t feel that. And so I’ve
0:47:08 developed these three myths of the spark. So the first one is the myth is if I don’t feel it from
0:47:13 the beginning, it can’t grow. And that’s absolutely not true. Only 11% of people experience love at first
0:47:17 sight. And many people develop feelings over time, which is why people marry someone in their apartment
0:47:22 building, marry someone at work. It grows over time. Second myth is if you feel the spark, it’s a good
0:47:26 thing. That’s also not always true. Some people are just really sparky. They give that feeling to
0:47:30 everyone. And then you’re like, oh my God, there’s something special between me and that person. It’s
0:47:35 like, no, honey, he gives that feeling to everyone. He’s very sparky and he could also be narcissistic.
0:47:39 And that’s why it’s happening. And then the third one is if you have a spark, then the relationship is
0:47:44 viable. That’s also not true. You can start really hot and heavy, and then it fades over time.
0:47:50 So my antidote to that is the slow burn. And I feel like I married the slow burn and Sam can attest to
0:47:55 that where I don’t think my husband is the most charming person you’ll ever meet, but he’s really
0:48:01 smart. He’s really funny, but he takes time to warm up. And so I feel like by giving him more time,
0:48:07 I found this amazing lottery pick and I feel like I won the lottery. But if I had just been looking for
0:48:12 the sparkiest person, we wouldn’t have wound up together. And so I think if you feel zero attraction,
0:48:16 especially for men, don’t go on the second date, it’s not going to go from zero to something.
0:48:22 But if you feel some attraction, then give that person another chance, especially if you don’t
0:48:29 go on that many dates. And if you were okay, so like sometimes when you study a subject a lot,
0:48:33 or you try to help a lot of people to that individual person, their problem feels very unique,
0:48:39 very special, very hard. But like you’ve seen a hundred of these and maybe even to the hundred,
0:48:43 you’re like, Oh man, I feel like I could help you so much. I don’t have all the time in the world,
0:48:48 but there’s almost this, like, if I could just shake you and get you to like either do one thing
0:48:53 or understand one thing or take on one mindset, what’s the one that if you could just like shake
0:48:58 people and be like, all right, that’s like, they got that. And then that will have all these positive
0:49:02 benefits. I don’t know if it’s different for men and women, you know, that you run into, but like,
0:49:04 what’s the advice you just want to shake somebody and just be like,
0:49:08 if you just really internalize this or did this action, it would really change your game.
0:49:12 We talked about fuck the spark. We talked about date, like a scientist. So the last one left for
0:49:17 this is my concept called the three dating tendencies. And people can take the quiz on my website and it
0:49:23 tells you which tendency you are. And this really helps people have language for what’s going on with
0:49:26 them. And so I just took it by the way. Do you want to, you want me to tell you my results?
0:49:28 I assume that you’re a maximizer.
0:49:32 I scored equally high on hesitator and maximizer tendencies.
0:49:36 That’s so funny. Okay. Let me explain what all of those are.
0:49:38 I mean, it’s obviously kind of like, I’m not dating. So like, I just kind of had like,
0:49:44 I put myself back in the mindset of like, you know, 24 year old me. And, um, it says who you are as a
0:49:48 hesitator. You don’t think you’re ready for dating because you’re not the person you want to be yet.
0:49:51 You hold yourself to a high standard. You want to be completely ready before you start your
0:49:55 project. And the same goes for dating. Um, your motto as a hesitator, I’ll wait till I’m a catch.
0:50:00 And who you are as a, and then maximizer is you love doing research, exploring your options,
0:50:03 turning over every stone until you’re confident you found the right one. You make decisions
0:50:06 carefully and you want to be a hundred percent certain before you make your choice. Your motto
0:50:12 as a maximizer is why settle? And then it gives you like advice on how to, um, like how to kind of
0:50:18 operate knowing that that’s your tendencies. Right. And the last one is the romanticizer, which
0:50:24 men do tend to score lower on this, but basically someone who’s obsessed with the, we met story.
0:50:30 I want to find my soulmate. I’ll know it when I see it. And they’re so focused on kind of the rom-com
0:50:35 element that they ignore a lot of great potential partners or when they actually hit a bump in the
0:50:39 road, instead of thinking I’ll have a work it out mindset and I’ll work through it. They actually
0:50:43 think, well, if it was my soulmate, then we wouldn’t have issues. And they end the relationship.
0:50:48 And I think having this language is very helpful for people because I get emails from men all the
0:50:51 time that are like, I’m a hesitator. I’m not putting myself out there. And I’m like, great. You just
0:50:56 need to go from zero to one. You just need to be on dates. And for maximizer, my advice is what I said
0:51:01 at the beginning of the episode, which is understand that you can keep searching forever to find the
0:51:06 perfect person, but you’ll miss out on choosing someone great and building something together.
0:51:13 What’s going to happen in like 10 years, 15 years, 20 years with a lot of the kids who are 25 right now
0:51:17 and 20 years old. The fact, like, it’s pretty crazy that you’re saying, I mean, we already know this,
0:51:23 that most women want someone who’s above them or like who provides. But amongst like my company,
0:51:28 and I don’t know about you, Sean, the women are kicking the dude’s asses. Like if you take like
0:51:34 a man and a woman who are both 25, the 25 year old woman is a better employee. Like she’s typically
0:51:38 like, like, for example, we went to a, we had an event the other day and like the women dressed
0:51:41 wonderfully. Like they looked presentable. And the men, I had to pull aside. I’d be like,
0:51:45 dude, you got to like dress nicer at these things and at least tuck your t-shirt in.
0:51:52 And like the men typically ask for more money, but are less good at their job. The men tend to be
0:51:58 sloppier. They tend to like think it’s cool not to care. There’s like a, there’s like a bunch of issues
0:52:04 that I’ve noticed themes. And this is a small sample size of dozens of employees. And, but what’s going
0:52:09 to happen in like 20 years? Is it just going to be a bunch of single people and less children? Or is it just
0:52:14 going to be a bunch of women who are married to old men who are richer than the, I don’t know what
0:52:19 it’s, what is it going to be? Yeah. So first of all, I do my research through talking to people now
0:52:23 and seeing patterns, recognizing that I think predictions are pretty hard, but I will throw
0:52:31 some, some things at the wall and see if any of the like end up being true. So one of them is that I do
0:52:35 think that we are going to continue to have this mating gap where, as you say, women continue to thrive
0:52:42 in terms of education and employment. And then there just aren’t enough great guys for them.
0:52:47 And I’m seeing at least among my friends, the rise of single mother by choice where women hit 40 and
0:52:51 they’re like, I didn’t find the guy. I still want to be a mom. And they use a sperm donor or a known,
0:52:58 a known donor. And they actually have kids on their own. Another thing is the rise of polyamory and a lot
0:53:03 of these relationships where, you know, as I said, the woman is willing to have like less of a great
0:53:09 guy than, you know, a guy that she’s not interested in. Another thing that we haven’t talked about yet
0:53:15 is just the rise of AI and AI companionship. So I’m getting ads all the time from Replica, you know,
0:53:19 get your perfect AI boyfriend. He always says the right things.
0:53:24 Women love this, by the way, I think more than men. I think women are liking AI boyfriends more than men
0:53:27 are liking AI girlfriends. I did not think it was going to be that way, but I know so many women
0:53:32 who like, I feel like they are in love with their chat GPT. I haven’t seen the research on that yet.
0:53:37 My hunch would just be that men are more early adopters here and like more desperate, but it could
0:53:42 be the case. For Replica, it is more of the AI boyfriend use case than AI girlfriend. Oh, that’s
0:53:46 very interesting. Okay. Well, there you go. Unlike VC Twitter, it was always like, oh, yeah,
0:53:51 girlfriend’s going to be huge. But actually AI boyfriend has been the dominant use case so far.
0:53:59 So imagine that you have some combination of AI glasses with really HD pornography. You have this
0:54:06 sex robot that’s very realistic and you have companionship from your AI boyfriend or girlfriend.
0:54:11 Like, why are you going to go up to somebody in a coffee shop and risk rejection? Why are you going
0:54:18 to have a girlfriend who bugs you to pick up your socks when this person is, this chatbot is sycophantic
0:54:22 tells you how great you are all the time. And so I think as the friction gets lower and lower and lower
0:54:29 to having a digital spouse or partner, then the effort that’s required for human relationships just
0:54:34 feels extra hard. And like, that is the thing that I’m worried about, because if you don’t have the
0:54:38 motivation, if you’re just watching Twitch and watch other people live their lives and like,
0:54:43 are people just going to slowly die off because we’re not actually dating and mating?
0:54:45 Yeah, that’s so that’s your prediction.
0:54:50 I think that’s just one of them. I think other things are that women are going to have to change
0:54:54 their expectations and men are going to have to raise the bar on themselves. So women right now
0:55:01 are saying, I’m going to earn as much or more than you. I also have to do a lot of the labor around
0:55:07 having a kid, raising a kid. I have this double burden of domestic and work. And so no longer is a
0:55:12 guy being a provider enough. And that’s what it was for a long time. So you now need to be emotionally
0:55:18 intelligent. So emotional intelligence is the new currency in dating. But guys were not raised to do
0:55:22 that. They were not told how to be emotionally intelligent. They were basically told from a young
0:55:27 age, be successful, be a provider, make money. And now the game has changed. And they’re caught
0:55:32 without those skills. Plus, we have the other side of it is that when they are vulnerable, women are
0:55:38 like, Oh no, you seem weak. I’m turned off by that. So I think that the genders are overlapping
0:55:41 more where women have to be more masculine in the workplace. Men have to be more feminine in
0:55:47 relationships. And some of that blurring is making dating worse and it’s making relationships more
0:55:54 confusing. And I think that the dating hasn’t caught up with the data that people just do not
0:55:59 know how to act in this modern world. And we need, I don’t know the answer, but we need to figure out
0:56:02 some changes to it so that people actually still want to be in partnership.
0:56:09 New York City founders. If you’ve listened to my first million before, you know, I’ve got this
0:56:14 company called Hampton and Hampton is a community for founders and CEOs. A lot of the stories and ideas
0:56:19 that I get for this podcast, I actually got it from people who I met in Hampton. We have this big
0:56:24 community of a thousand plus people and it’s amazing. But the main part is this eight person core group
0:56:28 that becomes your board of advisors for your life and for your business. And it’s life changing.
0:56:35 Now, to the folks in New York City, I’m building a in real life core group in New York City. And so if
0:56:40 you meet one of the following criteria, your business either does 3 million in revenue, or you’ve raised
0:56:45 3 million in funding, or you’ve started and sold a company for at least $10 million, then you are
0:56:51 eligible to apply. So go to joinhampton.com and apply. I’m going to be reviewing all of the applications
0:56:56 myself. So put that you heard about this on MFM. So I know to give you a little extra love. Now back to
0:57:03 the show. I am so thankful that I don’t have to deal with this bullshit. Oh my God. Bring me back
0:57:08 60s where I worked with asbestos and I had a high, you know, my average life fan was 66 years old and I
0:57:14 smoked a pack of cigs a day because this sounds really hard. You remember when there was that like
0:57:20 huge tsunami in like Southeast Asia? I don’t know if you know this, Sam, I was there the day before it
0:57:24 hit and we happened to leave. And then the next day we turned on the TV and our hotel was floating in the
0:57:29 ocean. I feel a little bit like that. I’m like, wow, we got out of there. I’m really glad I got out of
0:57:33 there because all these shifts are sort of headwinds. None of the, none of the things you
0:57:38 described as a tailwind that’s making it easier. Um, but you know, easy might not, might not be the,
0:57:43 the only criteria here because the way you’re describing dating is that dating is a skill and,
0:57:47 um, it’s, it’s an endeavor just like any of your other endeavors. It’s going to take some effort.
0:57:51 It’s going to take some rejection. It’s going to take some resilience and it’s going to take you
0:57:54 leveling up your skill if you want to be successful at it. Right. Just like in business,
0:58:00 you can’t just go into business and be like, cool. I’ll face no, no, no obstacles, no rejections. I
0:58:05 will not get knocked down. And my skills from day one are good enough for me to win. Like that’s just
0:58:10 not how it goes. So if I wanted to level up my skills and it sounds like you’ve, you’ve mentioned
0:58:14 a couple of them. You’ve talked about like emotional intelligence. You talked about conversationalists,
0:58:19 like how to have, how to be interesting, interested, how to ask questions properly. Like if I just
0:58:22 committed after listening to this and I was like, all right, I’m going to go level up in those. Is
0:58:26 there like a killer book that you would recommend or like a way to actually develop that skill?
0:58:30 Like what, what would be the fast track way to develop some of these skills besides the obvious,
0:58:35 which is get practice. Yeah. So we talked about the idea of effort and that effort goes a long way
0:58:42 and remember things, follow up with things. Women really love that. Develop your relational skills. So
0:58:47 one thing that I’m really passionate about is men’s groups. And I’m very curious to hear what you
0:58:51 both think about this. And as I was preparing for this episode, I was like, Oh, I kind of feel like
0:58:57 maybe they’ll feel like it’s cringy, but I just feel like men’s groups are so powerful. So a year ago,
0:59:02 my husband joined one, our good friend, David Clavin started it and it’s about six men. They meet once
0:59:07 a month, they go around and they each silently write down on supposed to notes, what’s top of mind for
0:59:12 them. Then they go around and whoever has kind of the things that are most present for them and really
0:59:17 wants to take up space. They let those people talk, they give them feedback. And it’s really a
0:59:23 great place for men to be angry, for men to be sad, for men to create this council of peers. And then
0:59:28 they hold each other accountable. And I’ve seen so much growth in my husband, so much growth in the other
0:59:34 guys in this group. And I think it’s better than therapy because most therapists are female. So having
0:59:39 your wife or having your female therapist tell you what to do, I think that’s fine. But having a council of
0:59:44 peers who can really relate to you and create a safe space for you to be angry and sad, I think that
0:59:49 that’s creating a lot more growth. And I really hope that at least one person listening to this
0:59:54 decides to create a men’s group. And it’s not that complicated. Find a few guys who you respect,
0:59:58 commit to meeting once a month, create a space where they feel safe to discuss what’s challenging for
1:00:04 them, and then just support each other in achieving those goals. Yeah, that’s great. Have you ever done
1:00:08 one, Sam, not like business related? Like, have you ever done one that’s like an actual men’s group?
1:00:13 I’ve done a few. Yeah, look, like the one that you and I did, or you led it, that was basically this.
1:00:18 Because we were all early in our relationships at the time. And like, we were asking each other
1:00:24 questions. But yeah, I have. And I like to make fun of it. But the reality is, it’s super useful and
1:00:27 awesome. And like making fun of it, like normalizes it and like makes it cool.
1:00:32 Yeah, yeah, I’ve done it. I’ve done. I’ve done it a few times. And it’s, it’s actually like the way
1:00:38 you described it just now is kind of perfect. Like it’s much, much better. I haven’t done therapy.
1:00:44 I’ve done coaching, but like, you know, we can tell. Yeah, I could, I could imagine how someone who
1:00:50 needs that sort of thing would feel. But you know, in therapy, it’s an intense focus on self. I think
1:00:55 one of the best things about these men’s groups is actually, it’s not about you. And because it’s a group,
1:01:00 you get a lot out of it, even when you weren’t the one talking, you weren’t the one sharing,
1:01:04 because like, there’s so much that’s either related, or just taking the focus off your own
1:01:07 problems and helping somebody out with their problems, all of a sudden, you feel lighter.
1:01:10 And you’re like, I don’t even, I didn’t even do anything. I didn’t even change my own situation,
1:01:16 but I feel better. And so I think that’s a great, a great idea. Okay, so men’s groups is one way to
1:01:21 get better. One more thing about that is that I don’t think there’s that many places for men to talk
1:01:25 about shame. And I think in general, shame is just a very challenging feeling. And I heard this story
1:01:26 example of a shame thing.
1:01:29 This was a story and someone in different men’s group told me where it was like,
1:01:35 they had been fired from their job like eight years ago, and they still carried this deep shame. I’m
1:01:40 not good enough. I’m useless. I was fired because I’m a bad employee. And their men’s group happens to
1:01:45 have this guy’s 40 people in this men’s group are 55. And when he shared that story as this deep trauma
1:01:50 of his life, he heard from a bunch of other guys, Oh, yeah, that happened to me. That’s going to be a
1:01:54 footnote in your life. I just thought it was such a beautiful story, because it took this thing that he
1:01:59 felt deeply shameful about. I can’t provide for my family. I’m a problem, even those years ago,
1:02:04 and he has a perfectly good job now. And having these older guys say to him, that happens to everyone,
1:02:09 it doesn’t matter, kind of helped him just move on. And so I think it’s a thing where you can talk about
1:02:14 the stuff that you sort of only admit to yourself, or maybe don’t even admit to yourself. And once you
1:02:19 get it out there, it kind of goes away versus holding it in. And I think most men are just holding
1:02:24 everything in. Is there anything someone can go read or watch or listen to right now?
1:02:28 Is there anything easier you could do besides like being vulnerable and sharing and meeting
1:02:35 people? You need like a gateway drug, you know, like starting a men’s group is not exactly the
1:02:39 gateway drug, you know, for like people of our generation, Sean and I probably both the same
1:02:44 thing. We read the book, The Game, which like has so many flaws in it. But the one thing that it did do
1:02:48 was it encouraged me to go and talk to women. And that was like my gateway drug where I’m like,
1:02:51 oh my gosh, people will respond to me if I act nice and interested.
1:02:56 Sure. Yeah. So Alain de Botton, however you say his name, he has really good information out there.
1:03:01 He has an episode of Diary of a CEO. He’s basically this British guy, philosopher who just has studied a
1:03:02 lot of this stuff. School of life, right?
1:03:06 Yeah. School of life guy. He’s amazing. I interviewed for him for my book. He’s really awesome.
1:03:11 Esther Perel is one of the goats here and her book, Meeting in Captivity, has changed a lot of
1:03:17 people’s lives. Really the godmother, godfather of relationship science, the scientific study of all this
1:03:23 stuff are John and Julie Gottman. And they really set the bar for all of this information. And so
1:03:29 much of the research that I and other people quote is really from them. And they are really the people
1:03:34 who created this love lab. They actually tested out a lot of this stuff and they really defined a lot of
1:03:42 this. Obviously, people can read my book, How to Not Die Alone. And I also have 12 coaches who work
1:03:47 for me who a lot of them specialize working specifically with men. And Sam, going back to what you
1:03:53 said earlier, it’s actually pretty easy for a lot of them to coach men because they are not doing some
1:03:57 of the basic things. And when they get these guys just doing the basic things that make a difference,
1:03:59 they start seeing success so quickly.
1:04:03 I’m actually reading one of John Gottman’s books now. I think he’s the man.
1:04:05 Which one?
1:04:08 Seven things, seven principles to make a marriage work.
1:04:08 I think that like-
1:04:10 Yeah, yeah. That’s like the classic amazing one.
1:04:13 To me, like reading some of these books, like I’ll tell people I’m reading them. I’m like,
1:04:16 oh, do you have a problem with your marriage? I’m like, no, it’s pretty great. It’s just that
1:04:19 like you don’t want to wait until you’re sick to start exercising.
1:04:24 Like it’s kind of like good to like to do maintenance or like to do couples therapy if you’re
1:04:28 like, oh, you guys are on the fritz. It’s like, no, it’s like I’m pretty fit and I still go
1:04:32 to the gym all the time. You want to like maintain and keep things nice. Otherwise, when they do get
1:04:34 bad, you’re like, oh, shoot.
1:04:41 I think one of the big edges in life right now is people think that if you, let’s say you do therapy
1:04:46 or you’re doing any kind of like mental health, it’s like, it’s literally the word mental health is,
1:04:50 you know, basically implies some sort of sickness, right? Like why would you do that? Is something
1:04:55 wrong? Is something broken? And it hasn’t shifted yet to something more like mental fitness
1:04:59 where, you know, people who go to CrossFit, you don’t accuse, you know, you don’t look at them
1:05:03 and be like, oh, it’s because you’re diseased and sick, right? It’s like, no, no, no. These people
1:05:07 just, they actually care about maximizing where they’re, what they can do physically. And so
1:05:13 similarly, I think in terms of your mindset, being as clear as you could be, being as positive
1:05:16 as you could be, being as having a positive outlook on your own life and actually taking
1:05:19 the time to do that is really important. And same thing with relationships. There’s an assumption
1:05:23 that if you’re working on a relationship, it’s because it’s hurting or broken. I think that’s
1:05:27 just like insane. There’s like a relationship fitness that that’s very different than, you know,
1:05:31 just relationship health as in you’re, you’re sort of nursing back from some problem.
1:05:36 Sean, I’ll add on to that and say, I actually think we’re halfway there in terms of the shift.
1:05:40 So the language that we used to use would be mental illness. Now we say mental health.
1:05:45 Right. And then I think going towards what you said, mental fitness makes so much sense.
1:05:48 Yeah. It’s a lot better than say you’re just, you’re just, you’re off your rocket.
1:05:52 Right. But my friend, Emily had a book that just came out about being emotionally fit. And it’s
1:05:56 basically like, yeah, how can you go to the gym for your fitness? And it’s not like, oh,
1:06:00 I worked out arms yesterday. I’m good for life. It’s like, you have to constantly work at it. And
1:06:06 that’s actually the crux of what the Gottman say. And my favorite takeaway from their many years of
1:06:14 research is this idea that relationships are not about the honeymoon or the trip to Hawaii. They’re
1:06:19 about the daily life interactions. And so they talk about this concept of a bid. So a bid could be
1:06:24 something really small. It could be that Sam walks into the room where Sarah’s on her laptop and she
1:06:31 sighs. And that’s a bid from Sarah for Sam to say, oh no, what’s going on? And Sam can do one of three
1:06:37 things. He can turn towards her and say, what’s happening. He can turn away from her or ignore it.
1:06:41 Or he can turn against her and be like, why are you making so much sound? You know, I’m on an important
1:06:47 phone call. And so life is really about these interactions. And so successful couples that have happy,
1:06:55 long marriages, they turned towards each other 86% of the time. And the couples that break up or are
1:07:01 the relationship disasters, they only turn towards each other 33% of the time. So it’s really about in
1:07:06 these small moments, how you turn towards your partner. We should actually, Sean, do an episode
1:07:13 on this John Gottman guy. He’s kind of crazy. Like he’s elderly now, but he has done this for probably
1:07:18 50 years and he’s been doing it. Well, yeah, but you know, he’s been doing it forever, but there’s
1:07:25 some crazy stats where like he, uh, he could predict within 90 or, uh, he could do it 90% of the time.
1:07:28 He could predict if you’re going to get divorced or not. I think within like three minutes or something.
1:07:33 Yeah. Something like insane. You know, he was like the, you should, uh, go look it up. He’s got this
1:07:37 thing called love lab and he would have couples come in and essentially argue or fight and he would
1:07:43 observe them and they would mark on a score sheet. Like every, like every second there’s an inner,
1:07:47 like some, some mark of like what the interaction was doing. And they had this like sort of scoring
1:07:53 system and basically they could score a couple’s interactions and just a couple of minutes and
1:07:58 predict with a 90% accuracy, like what the, whether that couple’s going to sort of stay together or end
1:08:02 up, uh, you know, breaking apart, which is, which is kind of amazing when you think about it. And, uh,
1:08:08 it really shows you like life is in the micro. It’s not the, it’s not the macro. Like we think,
1:08:11 I think you were talking about this with dating, right? Like, oh, I have a type and I have this
1:08:15 idea of how we’re going to meet. I have a soulmate. I have the one. And it’s like all these like macro
1:08:21 language when like a huge amount of life is just in the micro. It’s like, oh yeah, she, you know,
1:08:26 she said she was training for, um, you know, an iron man or something like that. And then I just said,
1:08:32 oh, me too. I did want, and this, instead of like asking her about it, I pulled the conversation to me
1:08:36 instead of like leaning into what she was saying. And that is like the micro is the difference between
1:08:40 a great date and an okay date. And then, and then how you think about it afterwards, right? Like
1:08:44 each one of those is just like a bunch of micro decisions that lead to your actual result.
1:08:49 Sean, this is, I feel like your superpower. I feel like you’re kind of like what I say,
1:08:53 like 10 minutes worth of stuff. And then you just summarize the stuff that’s worth the takeaway.
1:08:58 It’s kind of like your chachy BG just being like, here’s what she really meant. So I really
1:09:01 appreciate that. And there’s a good term for what you’re talking about,
1:09:06 which is a shift versus support response. I think a lot of people, especially men get this wrong.
1:09:11 So let’s say a woman says, oh, I’m going to Lake Tahoe this summer. The guy’s like, cool. I’m going
1:09:16 to seem interested and add onto that by saying, I went to Lake Tahoe last summer. That’s actually
1:09:21 shifting the energy back towards yourself. What women and people in general like is when you help them
1:09:25 go deeper and you say, how did you choose Lake Tahoe? Have you ever been there before? What are you most
1:09:31 looking forward to? Have you ever traveled with your family before? Support responses help that
1:09:35 person go deeper. And so you might think that they’re equal, but people actually appreciate the
1:09:40 support responses more because it shows curiosity about the other person and it makes them feel
1:09:41 interesting.
1:09:47 Yeah. By the way, Logan, what’s your deal? So you got a Netflix show. You wrote a book. It’s
1:09:52 great. You’re doing stuff at Hinge. You’re on this podcast. Like you’re kind of a superstar in the
1:09:56 making here. What’s, or maybe you’re already are and I’m late to the party, but like, what’s your,
1:09:59 what’s your deal? Are you trying to be like the love guru? What’s, what are you trying to do?
1:10:06 I mean, I feel pretty happy right now. It’s like, I made a vision board about seven years ago. So I
1:10:11 was, how I met Sam’s wife is that we worked together at Airbnb. We didn’t even overlap that long. And I
1:10:15 was just like, I really have this passion for dating relationships. Everything’s telling me that there’s
1:10:20 an opportunity here. People are lost and I can help them. And so I quit my job, not knowing what I would
1:10:26 do. And I sort of just from scratch created this career. And it’s taken the form of a newsletter,
1:10:33 a book, the job at Hinge, the Netflix show. I am hopefully going to have my own podcast this year.
1:10:38 And so I’m just kind of like, how can I keep learning and how can I keep helping people find
1:10:43 love? But I don’t feel like there’s like a next level that I need to get to. I kind of just want
1:10:49 to enjoy where I am right now. And what’s your, uh, do you feel a lot of pressure? Cause let’s say
1:10:56 you’re a relationship coach. The, the stupid, like kind of layman version of me is just like,
1:11:00 so do they have it all figured out? Like, and I know that’s never the case, but like,
1:11:03 I think there is like this weird expectation that people have, especially the further you
1:11:08 are away from doing the work yourself, that if you’re talking about this, that means you
1:11:12 need to be like fully self-actualized in some way. And so do you, do you feel pressure in
1:11:16 that? And like, I guess like, I guess like what’s your, I don’t know, when did you, when
1:11:18 did you get married? How did that go for you? I’m just curious.
1:11:22 Sure. Yeah. So I will quote one of my mentors here. So Eli Finkel is one of the best
1:11:27 relationship scientists in the country and he’s at Northwestern. And the dedication in
1:11:31 his book is to my wife, Alison, who thinks it’s hilarious that I’m a marriage expert.
1:11:37 And so I kind of, I kind of feel the same way, but what I will say is basically the thing that
1:11:41 fascinates me the most, the thing that I feel like I always want to work on is the decision-making
1:11:45 process of who do you marry? So I actually feel like I’m more of a dating expert than a marriage
1:11:48 expert. So sometimes when people ask me about sex, I’m like, I don’t know shit about sex.
1:11:53 I’m not a sex expert. What I’m actually really good at is who you should be with and
1:11:57 why. And so I don’t feel as much pressure as someone who’s putting out there a book about
1:12:02 marriage. But I would say like, of course I have my own issues. And of course there’s
1:12:06 moments where I’m like, oh, my husband’s pretty introverted. My life would be easier if he wanted
1:12:10 to go to this party with me. And then I just remind myself, like, here’s all the things that
1:12:14 are great about him. And I also say to myself, here’s all the annoying things that are annoying
1:12:19 about me. And by kind of like nagging myself, it also helps me be more understanding of my
1:12:24 husband. One last thing I’ll say about that is that I think having a kid has changed our
1:12:30 relationship so much more, so much for the positive, because in the past, if he did something that
1:12:35 annoyed me, I might either say something about it or bubble it up and then it explodes later.
1:12:41 But because I see what a great dad he is, my tank is so full with love for him that I can
1:12:44 just let most things go. And that has been a really good development.
1:12:48 Sean, her husband’s hilarious. And if I say anything that is too much, we can take this
1:12:55 out. But basically, he he’s a vegan, like hardcore vegan, but he’s shredded. And you’re like, why
1:12:58 do you? And he’ll tell you he’s going for the hungry wolf or hungry lion.
1:13:04 Hungry warrior. So he like looks hungry, but he’s like trying to get after it in life. He’s
1:13:09 shredded. And he he he’s an engineer. He works at a big AI company where he’s like brilliant.
1:13:15 And also he lost his leg recently because of cancer a couple years ago. But he like laughs
1:13:20 about it. And he’s just like a very principled, very interesting, almost strange guy in the best
1:13:24 way. Like he doesn’t have any social media, everything about him. You’re like, that’s
1:13:28 strange. And then you start hearing his reasoning and you’re like, oh, you’re you’re you live the
1:13:33 right way. I’m the flawed one. It’s like it’s a very funny. He’s a very funny guy.
1:13:38 Yeah, I think that’s a beautiful testament to my husband. And I think that I’m drawn to very
1:13:43 extreme people. I think that’s one of the reasons why I love Sam. I love my first million. I think
1:13:48 it kind of goes back to this thing of like, you can create the life that you want. You can create
1:13:52 your own rules. You can live that way. And I’ve never met anyone more than my husband who doesn’t
1:13:57 care what other people think. And so it is hard to be this hardcore vegan. We went to this wedding
1:14:01 and there was basically no food for him to eat. Well, guess what? He brings packets of
1:14:05 Justin’s peanut butter and he chugs it in the bathroom and he pregames with sweet greens. Like
1:14:11 he just basically adapts. And I think he’s very extreme. Like, yeah, he’s super healthy. He works
1:14:15 out every day. He meditates every day. He lost his leg to cancer. But a few weeks from now,
1:14:21 he’s going to be climbing in the Paraclimbing World Cup Championship. And so he’s just an extreme
1:14:25 guy who’s very disciplined and has been very successful. Oh, and he’s really funny.
1:14:34 Amazing. Logan, this was great. To all you singles out there, you’re welcome. You’re welcome for the
1:14:39 advice. You’re welcome for the tips. Go take some photos, get some good lighting. By the way,
1:14:42 what’s a good first date spot? So somebody goes, somebody wants to do a first date with somebody
1:14:46 they meet on an app. Should they be doing coffee, dinner? What’s the move?
1:14:50 Dinner’s too intense. I think coffee feels too much like a job interview.
1:14:55 What if you go get an interesting, maybe non-alcoholic drink somewhere and go for a walk?
1:14:59 I think people have really great conversations when they don’t have to make this direct eye contact.
1:15:06 Or just go do something fun. Go play pickleball and kind of shake out your sillies and take yourself a
1:15:10 little less seriously. All right. Thank you so much. Logan, great to have you.
1:15:12 Thanks a lot. See you. Thank you.
1:15:34 Hey, everyone. A quick break. My favorite podcast guest on My First Million is Dharmesh. Dharmesh
1:15:39 founded HubSpot. He’s a billionaire. He’s one of my favorite entrepreneurs on earth. And on one of our
1:15:44 podcasts recently, he said the most valuable skill that anyone could have when it comes to making money
1:15:50 business is copywriting. And when I say copywriting, what I mean is writing words that get people to
1:15:54 take action. And I agree, by the way, I learned how to be a copywriter in my 20s. It completely
1:15:58 changed my life. I ended up starting and selling a company for tens of millions of dollars. And
1:16:03 copywriting was the skill that made all of that happen. And the way that I learned how to copyright
1:16:09 is by using a technique called copywork, which is basically taking the best sales letters and I would
1:16:14 write it word for word and I would make notes as to why each phrase was impactful and effective.
1:16:18 And a lot of people have been asking me about copywork. So I decided to make a whole program
1:16:23 for it. It’s called Copy That. CopyThat.com. It’s only like 120 bucks. And it’s a simple, fast,
1:16:28 easy way to improve your copywriting. And so if you’re interested, you need to check it out.
1:16:31 It’s called Copy That. You can check it out at CopyThat.com.