Learn. Share. Evolve…

0:00:05 Here’s an oldie but a goodie from the archives from the Side Hustle Show Greatest Hits Collection.
0:00:10 How one Side Hustle Show listener turned a challenging situation into a new income stream
0:00:15 or the path from no skills to three grand a month on the side.
0:00:22 What’s up, what’s up? Nick Loper here. Welcome to the Side Hustle Show because
0:00:28 every expert was once a beginner. Like many parents, I’ve been spending a lot more time
0:00:33 with my kids over the last couple months, which has been a great silver lining to the
0:00:38 whole having preschool closed thing. And one thing that is fascinating to me about spending
0:00:43 this extra time with the kids is the pace of their learning. They’re two years old and four
0:00:49 years old for the sake of reference, and they’re picking up new stuff daily. What’s weird is
0:00:54 as adults, we start to think of our skill sets as fixed. A kid would never think that way.
0:00:58 There’s just stuff they haven’t learned yet. And that brings me to today’s guest,
0:01:07 Chris Misterich of selfmadewebdesigner.com. It’s an appropriate URL for Chris because he’s a self-made,
0:01:15 largely self-taught web designer. He went from being in a tight spot personally and financially to bringing
0:01:20 in an average of three grand a month on the side through his new web design business. Stick around in
0:01:25 this one to hear how Chris picked up this new skill set on the cheap, how he found his first clients,
0:01:30 and how he’s marketed and grown the business since then. And the important note here is that this is
0:01:36 replicable across any number of industries. In fact, I just hit publish on a blog post on some of the
0:01:42 highest paid and most in-demand freelance skills. Don’t have any skills worth paying for? Go learn
0:01:47 some, just like Chris did. Notes and links for this one, plus the full text summary of our conversation
0:01:54 with all of Chris’s top tips from the call are at sidehustlenation.com slash selfmade. I’ll be back
0:01:59 with my top takeaways from this chat with Chris, including the only known cure for imposter syndrome
0:02:02 after the interview. Ready? Let’s do it.
0:02:13 So about six years ago, my wife of 10 years decided that she was done with our relationship. So that made
0:02:20 a crisis for me, obviously relationally, but also financially. And so I had to figure out a way
0:02:27 fairly quickly to learn how to make some extra income on the side for me and my three daughters
0:02:32 as a single dad. So I knew that I wanted to stay in my full-time job, knew I didn’t want to leave that,
0:02:38 but also knew like the salary that I was getting from that wasn’t cutting it. And so off of the
0:02:46 suggestion of a friend, ended up looking into web design and found some free online courses and just
0:02:52 plowed my way through them as quick as I could. And a few months later was telling people that I was a
0:02:57 web designer. So you weren’t working in tech at the time. You didn’t have, you didn’t study this stuff
0:03:01 in school or anything. Just a friend out of the blue says, Hey, you ought to consider web design.
0:03:02 You’re like, sure.
0:03:08 You’re right. I was in a completely unrelated field. I was essentially the equivalent of a full-time
0:03:14 musician. So I was what’s called a worship pastor at a church here in Phoenix. So I led just a team of
0:03:21 volunteers that did all the music for all of our services. And so web development was, was never in
0:03:28 my purview. Like never thought of myself of being someone that went down that avenue. And so as soon
0:03:33 as I started doing some tutorials and doing some online courses, I instantly found out like, Hey,
0:03:39 I really love this stuff. And like I said, started telling people I was a web designer, probably had
0:03:46 no business telling people that, but a few gracious friends gave me a shot and just slowly started
0:03:53 building a freelance business. And about 18 months in, I had doubled the income of my full-time
0:03:58 salary at the church and was able to sustain everything that was happening in my daughter’s
0:04:04 life and in our life. And it was just such a, such a crazy thing to happen to kind of force me into
0:04:10 teaching myself and staying up late nights, but, but really kind of grateful for it to be in this place.
0:04:15 And I think it’s tough to see that when you first get started, it’s, it’s tough to see that when you
0:04:19 get through the other side of this, you’re going to be better off than when you first started. But
0:04:24 that certainly was the case for me. It definitely is. And I want to highlight something that you said
0:04:30 there was you started introducing yourself as a web designer, even if, you know, maybe in practical
0:04:35 purposes, you had no business doing though, but like establishing that internally as part of your
0:04:39 identity. Like, yes, this is what I am. This is what I do. I think that was really powerful.
0:04:47 Did you give any thought or hesitation to the fact that the world is already crawling with web designers?
0:04:50 Like how am I going to compete with all these people who actually know what they’re doing?
0:04:57 Yeah, for sure. I’m, I’m the kind of person that jumps both feet in before I really consider things.
0:05:02 And sometimes that turns out negatively, but it, in this case, it, it turned out,
0:05:06 it turned out great. And I think anytime you’re, you’re looking at a field where there’s,
0:05:12 where there’s a need, you do need to consider like, okay, who’s out there already and what’s my
0:05:19 competition. But I think at the end of the day, there’s no one person that is going to connect
0:05:24 to all of these people out there. If there’s a big enough market, then there’s a big enough need.
0:05:31 I might not be as good as other people in certain things, but I know my personality might connect with
0:05:36 business owners a little bit better than other people’s personalities or the fact that I’m,
0:05:42 I’m communicative and I follow up and I make deadlines and I hit them. Like there are ways
0:05:46 to stand out. Even if you feel like the market is, is saturated.
0:05:51 Yeah. And on top of that, so it’s a big market, but it’s also a growing market. So it’s not necessarily
0:05:58 a business that relies on carving out market share from somebody else. It’s, Hey, there are more and more
0:06:02 businesses that are going to need a website and I can make a name for myself there.
0:06:09 The web design market is, is certainly changing and it has changed and it will continue to change.
0:06:15 So from when I first started, it’s even harder now to get into it. And so I don’t think you should ever
0:06:21 come into something that’s a side hustle with the idea of, I’m going to learn a skill and then bunker
0:06:25 in and be set for the rest of my life. I think you have to come at it of, I’m always going to be
0:06:30 learning. I’m always going to be adding new skills. I’m always going to be discovering what it is that my
0:06:37 clients can really value from could, could really benefit from, and then adding additional skills or
0:06:43 bringing other people on your team and adding other components to what you have to offer. Because
0:06:48 it was 10 years ago that if you wanted a website, you had to know how to do web development. But now
0:06:49 that’s, that’s just not the case.
0:06:56 Right. There’s so many off the shelf platforms and whether customers are educated on those or not,
0:07:01 are they just like, Hey, they want a custom job. Then they come out and they can hire you for that
0:07:07 versus picking a template off of Wix or Weebly or Squarespace or even, you know, any of the thousands
0:07:08 of free WordPress themes.
0:07:17 Exactly. You know, I liken it to the fact that fast food restaurants will never shut down really good
0:07:22 steakhouses. There’s just no way. And so there will always be a differentiation between what you have
0:07:27 to offer versus what somebody else has to offer. So as long as you’re coming about it with eyes wide
0:07:33 open and saying, okay, what, what makes me different than everybody else? And who can I connect with
0:07:37 better than everybody else? You’re going to find a place in the market. You’re going to find a place
0:07:40 of people to find projects from.
0:07:44 All right. Tell me about the self-education phase. Was this just a matter of Googling like
0:07:52 how to be a web designer? Like curious what queries or like what gave you the base level education to
0:07:58 start to feel confident to put a price tag and charge real money for, for customers?
0:08:05 Yeah. So I first started with a platform called Code Academy. And at the time it was 100% free.
0:08:11 Every single thing that they offered, you didn’t have to pay for. It’s, it’s since gone on to have
0:08:18 like a tier of paid courses and a tier of free courses. And honestly, what is free now is the
0:08:25 equivalent to what I took when I first got started. So that gave me kind of the basic essential knowledge
0:08:30 that I needed just to start building things. But what I always encourage people to do if they’re
0:08:37 looking at getting into web development or web design is to just start building projects. After
0:08:44 you get the fundamentals, you learn most from doing and online courses can be really tricky.
0:08:49 They can give you kind of a false sense of security and that you know what you’re doing. And then,
0:08:53 you know, all of a sudden you’ve got a job for somebody and you’re tough out of luck because there’s
0:08:56 not somebody there typing the code out for you as you go.
0:08:59 Yeah. It’s, it’s all theory until you put it into practice.
0:09:05 Right. And so I took a course that my community college close to me had a course online,
0:09:11 but after that, like it was me and Google being best friends for months as we tried figuring stuff
0:09:18 out. You know, it’s a slow process at first and you definitely get frustrated. But the crazy thing is
0:09:24 like, I just went full-time this last year as a, as a UX designer for a company. And, and I thought I
0:09:29 was going to come and sit amongst all of these web developers who didn’t ever have to look anything
0:09:34 up or never ran into any errors or like they, every code that they wrote was absolutely perfect, but
0:09:38 they were doing the same things that I’m doing and what I was doing when I first got started.
0:09:43 So there’s this real big misconception that in order to be a web developer, you have to know
0:09:45 absolutely everything. And that’s just not the case.
0:09:50 I’m really glad you said that. Cause I, I do the same thing, like how to do such and such
0:09:57 in WordPress. And I end up on some help desk thread or plugin support thread. And yeah, I’m,
0:10:02 I’m out there Googling stuff every day. And that’s kind of a technical element, but it’s like the same
0:10:07 thing, like how to set up such and such in Google analytics, like the answers are out there. And it’s
0:10:11 like, you have the confidence to say, yes, I know how to do this. Yes. I know how to find these
0:10:16 answers. You don’t expect nowadays to have like this infinite knowledge bank in your head. You don’t
0:10:22 need it. I’m curious what school will look like for our kids as it’s like, why do we have to memorize
0:10:24 this stuff? I can access this in 15 seconds.
0:10:30 Right. Well, I remember being a kid and in order to, to know anything outside of what you were taught
0:10:36 in school, like you either had to spend tons of time in a library or your, your family had to
0:10:41 subscribe to the Encyclopedia Britannica, which was, you know, a huge chunk of money. And so
0:10:47 it’s just so different now that there’s so much knowledge at your fingertips that if, if you want
0:10:51 to learn something like whatever it is, it doesn’t have to be web development. It could be copywriting.
0:10:56 It could be digital marketing. It could be Google analytics. There, there’s a market for it and there
0:11:03 are places and avenues to learn it for free. Yes, absolutely. So trying to figure out what is the large
0:11:09 and growing market segment that you’re something at least somewhat interested in. And, you know,
0:11:14 you have the competence and maybe persistence to figure out how to learn and how to become
0:11:20 good at it. Right. The passion I imagine follows doing the work in most cases, at least that’s the,
0:11:24 the Cal Newport bit. It’s like, don’t, don’t start a business around your passion,
0:11:28 start a business around something you are good at, that you care about, and then watch the passion
0:11:33 follow. And I always give the example of podcasting, like episode one had zero passion for
0:11:37 podcasting. I didn’t know what I was doing. Nobody does. Right. It’s like, but over the years I’ve
0:11:42 become super passionate about podcasting. So that is an important point as well. And like you said,
0:11:47 we’re looking at this through the lens of web design, but we’ve seen it from other guests in the
0:11:53 world of knife sharpening, in the world of bookkeeping, in the world of, you know, any skill,
0:11:57 you name it, right? You can go out and learn the skills for that. It’s just a matter of,
0:12:01 is this something you can see yourself doing long-term that you care enough to put in the
0:12:07 education effort? So I like that part. Where did you go from there to saying now,
0:12:10 Hey, I’m Chris, I’m a web designer, hire me.
0:12:17 Well, eventually I built enough websites for friends that I didn’t have any more friends to
0:12:17 build websites for.
0:12:21 Were you doing that stuff just for free for practice?
0:12:27 No. Well, the first one was for free. And then after that, I would approach it and just say like,
0:12:34 Hey, I’m learning web design and I’d love to do a website for your business. And I’ll give you a
0:12:39 great deal because I’m just getting started. So after that first one, I never did it for free.
0:12:45 And, and most of my friends were gracious enough to know that I would put enough work into it to be
0:12:50 valuable to them. And I think a lot of people who get started think they have to be free for a really
0:12:56 long time. And I don’t necessarily think that’s the case. I think you can start to charge fairly
0:13:01 soon. If you know that what you’re giving brings value to the person that is getting the website,
0:13:08 right? So every time I got a project, like, let’s say my first, my first paid gig was like 500 bucks
0:13:13 for a website. Right. And so then every single one after that, I would double my rates. So my next one
0:13:19 was a thousand. And then my next one was 2000 and my next one went on to 4,000. And eventually I got
0:13:24 to a place where like, okay, this is, I’m getting a good value and I’m giving a good value to the people
0:13:31 that are getting my services. Yeah. So that went on and eventually I had to start looking outside of
0:13:36 my social network. Everybody, you know, has already, you’ve already done them, built them a website.
0:13:41 Okay. Right. Exactly. And we laugh at that, but I think a lot of people dismiss that. I feel like
0:13:47 there’s a lot more people in your, in people’s world to be able to say, Hey, let me give you this
0:13:52 service, build you this website for money that, that might be connected to you. That might be close to
0:13:56 you. Cause I’ve talked to a lot of people who are like, I don’t, I just don’t know anybody that would
0:14:02 need one. And I’m like, okay, go sit down, write down a list of a hundred people that, you know,
0:14:06 and then everybody that has a business or is connected to somebody that has a business,
0:14:11 you reach out to them and see if they might need your help with a website. And surprisingly,
0:14:14 they all come back to me and they’re like, Oh yeah, you were right. There was this person that
0:14:19 needed a website. Yeah. Was it uncomfortable in any way pitching your direct network?
0:14:23 I mean, there is always, there is always that little bit, especially when you’re first getting
0:14:28 started, there’s, there’s that feeling of like, Oh man, I want to make sure that I’m not just
0:14:34 pulling the wool over my friend’s eyes. But I think if, if you are a good person and you come
0:14:40 at it as like, if this fails, I’m not going to take their money from them because they’re taking a risk
0:14:45 on me. And so because of that, I’m going to take a risk that if I can’t figure this out, it’s just
0:14:51 going to be my own wasted time. That’s the thing with sales in general. If you look at pitching your
0:14:56 services to somebody as the greasy snake oil salesman, then you’re going to feel that way.
0:15:01 no matter how good of a person you are, no matter how good of a freelancer or web designer you are.
0:15:07 But if you look at it as I have something valuable to offer people and people are willing to pay for
0:15:13 it, then it becomes more, much more, you’re a servant to their needs more than anything else.
0:15:17 Yeah. I’ve always had such a hard time with that, especially like in this particular space,
0:15:21 because it’s like, Oh, you know, but I could do it myself for free or something. But it’s like,
0:15:26 maybe the client doesn’t have time to do that. They don’t want to do that. They’re just happy to,
0:15:30 you know, have a custom thing. And so it’s like, you know, get out of your own head if you’re kind
0:15:36 of thinking in that sense. Yeah, absolutely. And I think when it comes down to it, building a website,
0:15:41 designing a good website, that’s actually going to benefit a company or a business is a lot harder
0:15:45 than people think it is. And I’ve had so many clients that come to me and say,
0:15:51 we did our best with this website, and it’s just not any good. Can you help us? You know?
0:15:51 Yeah.
0:15:55 And so then it’s like, yeah, for sure. Like, those are the clients that would come to me.
0:15:59 More with Chris in just a moment, including how he expanded his client base
0:16:02 beyond his personal network, coming up right after this.
0:16:07 For such an important channel like Phone, the software powering this important channel was
0:16:13 super outdated and clunky. We wanted to make it delightful and make it very easy for businesses
0:16:16 to connect with their customers, so do voice and text.
0:16:22 That’s Darina Kulia, co-founder of our sponsor, OpenPhone. Trusted by more than 60,000 customers,
0:16:27 this is the number one business phone system that streamlines and scales your customer communications.
0:16:33 I like to think of it like a centralized hub to receive and respond to calls and texts in your
0:16:37 business. And I asked Darina about who’s typically signing up for this kind of service.
0:16:44 We definitely have a lot of folks who come to us and their personal cell phone has become their
0:16:49 company phone number and they’ve hired a team or they’re starting to scale their business
0:16:53 and they just find themselves as a business owner, as a founder being the bottleneck.
0:17:01 So we see that all the time. And then we also see folks much further along where they’re using some
0:17:06 legacy complicated tools that are just not really made for how communication happens these days.
0:17:13 We also just recently launched Sona, which is our voice AI agent that can handle any missed
0:17:19 calls. If you have clients calling outside of business hours, instead of them going to voicemail,
0:17:26 it can go into Sona, which is capable to handle any replies and can also take a message.
0:17:28 So you are capturing that lead information.
0:17:34 And it’s like, and it’s a robot, like it responds like on the fly with some pre-programmed responses.
0:17:38 It does such a great job. This way they can handle questions 24 seven.
0:17:44 Now here’s a scenario for you. So let’s say I’ve committed to a certain business phone number.
0:17:50 I’ve distributed flyers. It’s printed on my business cards. It is on my local business listings on
0:17:56 directories throughout the internet. Like what’s the process to now have that ring open phone system
0:17:57 versus the current system?
0:18:03 So we see this all the time. This process is called phone number porting. We port numbers
0:18:10 from all kinds of carriers. So basically no matter what provider you’re using, we can take that number
0:18:15 and move it over to open phone. It is free. We handle the whole thing. And if you want to try out open phone,
0:18:20 we have a free trial. You can try it out, see how you like it. And if you like it, you can then
0:18:24 decide to port your existing number over and we handle the whole process.
0:18:29 Now open phone has automatic AI call summaries. So you don’t have to worry about taking notes while
0:18:35 you’re on the call. But another cool feature is what Doreena called AI call tagging, basically
0:18:41 allowing you to quickly filter for the calls that were sales objections or customer complaints or
0:18:46 requests for a discount. So you can review those and see what worked, what didn’t and train team
0:18:51 members on the most effective tactics and language in those cases. And it’s all in the name of building
0:18:55 a better, faster and friendlier customer experience.
0:18:58 I want all open phone customers to have five stars only.
0:19:03 Right now, open phone is offering side hustle show listeners 20% off your first six months at
0:19:11 openphone.com slash side hustle. That’s O P E N P H O N E dot com slash side hustle. And like we
0:19:16 talked about, if you’ve got an existing phone number with another service, open phone will port it over
0:19:22 at no extra charge. Open phone, no missed calls, no missed customers. Let me know if this sounds
0:19:28 familiar. You’ve got more ideas than you’ve got hours in the day. And that to do list is never quite
0:19:33 done. That’s why finding the right tool to stay on top of everything and simplify things is such a
0:19:38 game changer. For millions of businesses, including dozens of side hustle show guests, that tool is
0:19:43 Shopify. One thing I love about our partner Shopify is you don’t have to start from scratch.
0:19:48 They’ve got hundreds of ready to use templates that help you build a beautiful online store to match
0:19:53 your brand’s style. Plus Shopify makes it easy to create email and social media campaigns to capture
0:19:58 customers wherever they’re scrolling or strolling. And they’re not sleeping on AI either. I’m talking
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0:20:09 ready to sell, you’re ready for Shopify. Turn those dreams into and give them the best shot at success
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0:20:21 Shopify.com slash side hustle. Go to Shopify.com slash side hustle. Shopify.com slash side hustle.
0:20:30 It’s more than just putting pretty pictures in the right places. It’s testing designs and layouts out.
0:20:35 It’s making sure that things are converting the way that we want them to. It’s making sure that
0:20:40 things are set up automatically to where a client doesn’t have to check their email
0:20:47 every 10 minutes. Like they just have a funnel and a system that just brings them to a place where
0:20:53 they’re getting leads and nurturing leads and then making sales in a way that they would never be able
0:20:58 to do if it weren’t for my expertise of having done the dirty work and gone in and figured this stuff out.
0:21:03 So in that sense, you should never feel bad about what you have to offer somebody.
0:21:08 Sure. All right. So you tap out your personal network. You keep doubling your rates until people
0:21:12 start saying no. You’re out of the warm leads. So what happens next?
0:21:20 Yeah. So, so then I went to a platform called Upwork and at the time it was, was Odesk. Did everything,
0:21:28 put my profile up, got accepted, like dialed in my, my biography, started bidding on projects and
0:21:30 absolutely nothing happened.
0:21:37 And it was that because you have like no reviews on the platform, you got no track record. Like I’m not
0:21:38 going to take a risk on this guy.
0:21:46 Exactly. Exactly. And I’ve heard most people had much quicker success than I did. But for me, I was
0:21:52 putting in bids and putting in looking for projects. But if you don’t have a lot of clout, if you don’t
0:21:57 have reviews, then it’s, it’s a lot tougher to get people to trust you. But I think there’s also this
0:22:05 aspect of you’re kind of learning how to, how to work within the platform, right? Of, of Upwork.
0:22:12 There’s a system and then there’s a method with which is the best way to look for projects and to
0:22:17 filter through projects and then to bid on projects that it takes some time to dial in.
0:22:23 Well, let’s talk about some of those best practices. So Upwork is probably the largest freelance platform
0:22:28 in the world right now. I imagine they’re blowing up with tons of qualified candidates as lots of people
0:22:34 are out of work right now, but it’s featured in the book, buy buttons as one of these mini marketplaces,
0:22:38 is go where the cash is already flowing. Upwork is one of those sites where people who need work done
0:22:46 and are willing to hire remotely are going to look for talent to do that work. So what made it start to
0:22:46 hit for you?
0:22:55 It was a mixture of a few things. So eventually I got one of my first gigs and, and that went well,
0:23:01 and I got good feedback from that. And that was super helpful. But I will say the only reason I got
0:23:06 that gig was I got some advice when I first got started that said, whenever you’re laying out your
0:23:13 skills, don’t say everything that you’re good at, right? Don’t say I’m a web designer and a graphic
0:23:19 designer and I can do, I can edit your audio and edit your video and I can do voiceovers. Like that’s
0:23:25 actually going to harm you more than it’s going to help you. And so I dialed in what I had expertise
0:23:30 into three things. So it was, it was WordPress, it was Adobe Photoshop, and it was optimized press
0:23:38 and optimized press at the time was much bigger than it, than it is now. But sure enough, people who were
0:23:44 looking for optimized press work done were the ones that were reaching out to me in those early days.
0:23:48 For those of you who don’t know, optimized press is essentially a plugin within WordPress. That’s,
0:23:54 it’s kind of like a site builder. And it was one of the first like drag and drop site builders on
0:23:58 WordPress. Whenever that started to be a more popular route for building websites.
0:24:04 Okay. I was going to ask if there was any sub specialty, which, you know, you can go really deep
0:24:08 on, you know, web design is hopelessly broad. So yeah, you mentioned I will design in WordPress and
0:24:12 then specifically with this plugin, kind of carving out a niche in that space.
0:24:20 Yeah, exactly. And, and my encouragement to a web designer getting started is you need to take a risk
0:24:27 on a specialty, like you mentioned, and the specialty either needs to be for a certain group of people
0:24:35 like saying, Hey, I’m, I’m a web designer for HVAC companies, or I’m a web designer for course creators
0:24:42 or podcasters. So that’s the group of people, or you need to have a specialty within a, with a certain
0:24:51 tool. So if you are really good at HubSpot, which is like a, like a CRM platform, then you need to be
0:24:56 putting that at the forefront of what you do as a web designer, because there are so many people who
0:25:02 are looking for good HubSpot freelancers. Okay. Why do you call that taking a risk on a specialty?
0:25:09 It feels risky to say like, I’m going to narrow down what I do and who I do it for. Right.
0:25:13 Yeah. I’m going to, I’m going to say no to 99.9% of the market.
0:25:17 Right. Exactly. And, and when you’re first getting started, you’re like, why would I say no
0:25:22 to anything and everything? And listen, sometimes you just have to say yes. Right. I think there’s
0:25:27 a lot of people that are hammering niches down people’s throats right now. And when you’re first
0:25:32 getting started, you might not even know what you’re good at. You might not even know who you serve best,
0:25:38 but eventually some patterns start to kind of come together and you can kind of look back. And the
0:25:43 reason why I was able to say, I’m good at optimized press was because the first website I ever did,
0:25:49 the person used optimized press. And so I learned it like the back of my hand. And so I was just like,
0:25:54 you know what, that’s the thing I know the best. And so I’m just going to go with it. And, and so it
0:25:59 was, it was a little bit of jumping in with both feet and going, let’s hope this works out. And
0:26:05 thankfully it landed. And the equivalent today, maybe Elementor or Thrive Architect, or there’s a
0:26:10 bunch of these. Right. Absolutely. There, there are so many different things. And as, as certain
0:26:15 things get more and more popular, like Elementor is getting super popular. And so you have to,
0:26:24 I’ve heard it called the, the down, down niche. So I do Elementor websites for local businesses or mom
0:26:31 and pop coffee shops. So the bigger a tool gets, the more people are going to learn it. And the more
0:26:36 you’re going to have to learn how to differentiate yourself. Okay. Yeah. So originally it was to take a
0:26:41 risk on a specialty either for a group of customers or within a certain tool. But if that tool is super
0:26:46 popular, you might have to claim a specialty within that tool and for a certain group of customers.
0:26:54 Absolutely. Absolutely. Okay. So this guy or this customer hires you on Upwork, you get good feedback
0:26:58 and your bid to success ratio starts to improve after that.
0:27:06 Yeah. Well, honestly, it was another three months before I got another gig. It was a great copywriter.
0:27:13 His name’s Ed Gandia, who has a podcast and is a, is a copywriting coach. And so he connected with me
0:27:20 through Upwork and had me build out a landing page within Optimize Press. From that, he gave me a few more
0:27:28 jobs and slowly, but surely the reviews started to stack up. And then rather than having to go out and bid on
0:27:33 certain projects, people started coming to me because they were seeing the rave reviews.
0:27:38 And one of the things that I always encourage people on Upwork is if after a project’s done,
0:27:43 you have something to show for it. Like if you can take a screenshot of the website that you’ve just
0:27:49 created and attach that to the review, it’s going to help you out a lot more than if you just leave
0:27:56 the review by itself. Because you’re trying to help people connect the dots between the work that
0:28:00 somebody was pleased with and the quality that it actually was.
0:28:02 Yeah. Make it visual if you can.
0:28:08 Absolutely. And so I just kept doing that. And then from there, it was kind of a snowball effect.
0:28:14 I ended up becoming a top-rated freelancer. And then Upwork, right around the time I became a top-rated
0:28:20 freelancer, went public with their stock. And so I was actually featured on one of their advertisements
0:28:23 and featured within the platform. Oh, wow.
0:28:28 That really helped me to gain a lot more visibility for a certain season of time. It didn’t last for
0:28:32 forever, but it certainly helped within the interim.
0:28:34 Yeah. That’s awesome, man.
0:28:35 Yeah. Thank you so much.
0:28:44 One of the inevitable pushbacks against Upwork is that it’s global in that, okay, as a freelance web
0:28:50 designer in Arizona, I’m competing with freelance web designers in developing countries who are often
0:28:57 willing to work for far less than I am. Did you stick to your guns on your rates or did you find,
0:29:04 or were there some filtering on which projects that you bid on? Like, I’m curious how you avoided the
0:29:09 race to the bottom that some of these freelance platforms are known for.
0:29:13 There’s a season of time where you have to learn how to filter through the jobs that you’re looking for.
0:29:20 Because if you take the default filtering, you’re going to get anything and everything to bid on.
0:29:25 And you’re going to be wasting a lot of your time bidding on projects that are worth pennies to the
0:29:30 amount of time you’re going to put in them. And so there’s a filtering process. So when I first got
0:29:37 started, you can filter through the experience that the client has, the level of experience that the
0:29:44 freelancer that they’re looking for, the amount of projects that are freelancers that have bid on the
0:29:50 project and the price range. And so when I first got started, I just, I just kind of said, okay,
0:29:57 who would be looking for me, right? What would my ideal client look like? Or who would see me as the
0:30:02 ideal freelancer? And so I figured it was probably somebody that was new to the platform that was willing
0:30:08 to give me a shot. And I figured I was probably about like the mid level range of experience and skill.
0:30:15 And then I was looking for somewhere between the $1,000 to the $2,000 range. And so you can filter
0:30:23 all of those types of projects within Upwork to where what you see is exactly what you’re looking
0:30:28 for. That’s what I did. And that was a really successful strategy for me at the very beginning.
0:30:33 And then as time went on, my skills increased. And so I started looking for more experience projects that were
0:30:41 higher paying. And so you can, you can filter out of, of most of the projects where there are going to be
0:30:48 people who would, would work for much less than you. And at the same time, there are a lot of clients who are,
0:30:56 are wanting to work with a someone local, but be someone in the same time zone and then see someone within the U S.
0:31:02 Is that a, an actual filter or are you just kind of gauging that based on their expected price range
0:31:05 and desired freelancer experience little toggles?
0:31:12 No, it’s, it’s an actual filter. You can search for projects that are U S based only. I occasionally
0:31:17 will search for ones that are outside of the U S, but it’s very rarely that I find one outside of the
0:31:25 U S that is at the level that I’m, I’m looking for. And so it’s, it’s an easy on and off checkbox that,
0:31:29 you know, really helps you dial in the projects that are kind of worth your time to bid on.
0:31:34 Yeah, that’s helpful. And imagine even if overseas workers are bidding on those,
0:31:38 they’re not a great fit in the client’s mind. Cause they’re like, Hey, that’s, that’s not what I asked
0:31:43 for. Right. And there are even, you know, a client can set it up to where restrictions on exactly what
0:31:48 they’re looking for. So they can say within their project, I don’t want anybody to bid on this project
0:31:55 that isn’t from the U S if somebody does, then they don’t get pushed to the top of the pile.
0:32:01 So if you’re from the U S you have a much more likelihood to be seen and be connected with by the
0:32:08 client who is looking for the freelancer, you know, the same is true for locally. Like if you bid on,
0:32:12 like I’m in Arizona and I’ve been on a few projects in California and they just never landed,
0:32:14 even though I knew I could do a really good job on them.
0:32:17 Interesting. They’re like, ah, that’s too far away.
0:32:17 Yeah.
0:32:24 I can’t deal with that. Is Upwork still driving decent business for you today? Or have you shifted
0:32:24 off platform?
0:32:32 Yeah. I’m in a kind of a new season of starting self-made web designer. And so I’ve kind of started
0:32:38 to do less freelancing and tried to help more and more people figure out how to do what I’ve done,
0:32:47 but Upwork still remains a good consistent source of projects. And sometimes it’s different. For instance,
0:32:52 I just had a company reach out to me through Upwork that wanted me to create an online course for HTML
0:32:58 and CSS. So that’s not necessarily building a website, but it’s still a great project. And it’s
0:33:04 of great value to me because I love teaching and they’re paying really well. So it’s not like it
0:33:11 is not as, you know, it’s not as steady, but it’s only because I’m not actively putting as much effort
0:33:16 into it. So I’m still getting, I’m still getting interviews. I’m still getting requests, but if I
0:33:21 were to put more time in it, it would definitely be just as much of a freelance side hustle as it once
0:33:21 was.
0:33:27 Yeah. That’s an interesting note too on Upwork and even other freelance platforms and other
0:33:33 marketplaces is as your reputation builds and grows and as your portfolio and your feedback grows,
0:33:38 all of a sudden you kind of, you become featured, right? It’s like, as I’m going into post a job
0:33:44 on Upwork, it’s showing me like recommended people that I could either hire outright without any sort
0:33:48 of back and forth, or at least invite them to bid on my project. So it’s like, you know, you’re no longer
0:33:53 having to do this kind of like search and filter and shotgun approach. It’s like now people at least
0:33:57 have some familiarity with you. They’ve seen your profile, they’ve seen your past work and they’re
0:34:01 like, this guy looks legit. Let me invite him to this thing and see, see if it’s a fit.
0:34:07 Yeah. And, and that’s exactly it. And there are even some clients who they haven’t even posted a job
0:34:13 yet, but they’re just doing exploratory messages with certain freelancers. And so that happens real
0:34:17 consistently of people saying, I haven’t posted this job yet. I saw your profile. I’m very interested in
0:34:24 working for you. Can we talk? So eventually after you’ve built up a reputation, it gets much easier
0:34:30 as time goes on. And that’s by Upwork’s own account. Like they’re trying to make the best freelancers
0:34:36 connect with the best clients and they get a lot of grief for certain things that they do. But I,
0:34:41 I’m convinced that the decisions that they make are trying to serve both the freelancer and the
0:34:42 clients who are looking.
0:34:45 Anything else that worked to market the business?
0:34:52 Chris’s response, plus the surprising full-time career pivot this side hustle led to coming up
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0:37:19 Yeah, absolutely. I always tried to come at it of, I want to have more than one avenue of
0:37:27 projects coming in because at any moment, Upwork can say, we’re done, right? And then if I’m leaning
0:37:33 completely on Upwork, then I’m going to be up a creek and I’m not going to have anything to do for
0:37:39 quite a few months. So another thing I did was I tried focusing on something called local SEO.
0:37:47 You know, I’m by no means a SEO expert and have never touted myself to be that. And anytime a client
0:37:52 has come to me asking for SEO, I always try to encourage them to either get somebody to work with
0:37:57 me or if they need somebody that can do SEO and web design, by all means, if you find that unicorn out
0:38:04 there, go for it. But something that I did that was really smart was I put my home address on my
0:38:11 website. And another great strategy, and I started writing this blog post for my freelance website,
0:38:16 but never got through with it. A friend of mine had encouraged me, write the blog post that says
0:38:21 the best, the 10 best web designs in whatever city you live in. So for me, it’d be Gilbert, Arizona.
0:38:28 So it’d be the 10 best web design firms in Gilbert, Arizona and put some other people that you know,
0:38:34 that are good, that are close to you, but also put yourself and what happens when you focus locally,
0:38:42 it drives people who are looking for your services to your site a lot easier because Google is setting
0:38:47 it up to where they’re wanting to connect people that are close to each other. And so I’ve had quite a
0:38:52 few jobs of people saying like, I was looking for somebody that was in my city and you’re right down
0:38:58 the road from me and I love your work. And so that, that was a super helpful strategy. And, and then it
0:39:04 eventually gets to the point where you’ve built up a network amongst other people, even jobs I’ve gotten
0:39:09 on Upwork. Those clients went and told their friends who weren’t on Upwork. And so then they reached out to
0:39:15 me directly. So if you’re doing a good job, if you are, you have a certain level of extra expertise, but are good at
0:39:20 things like project management and just staying in touch with clients, word’s going to get around and
0:39:26 it’s just going to kind of be a natural progression. Now, outside of punching in your address on your
0:39:30 website, and there are ways to do this in Google, my business that you can just type in, like, this is
0:39:35 the area that I serve. Like, if you don’t want your home address public, I totally understand that.
0:39:40 Was that something that was like automatic? Like once you did that, it was like the algorithms kind of
0:39:44 figured out like, this is, this is the guy’s business. This is where he is. And, and that was it.
0:39:49 Or did you have to do something specific so that you showed up when I type in Gilbert,
0:39:52 Arizona web designer, I find mystric web design?
0:39:58 Well, you know, I don’t think there’s anything that’s super easy with Google and SEO. Good God,
0:40:04 sometimes you want to bang your head against the wall, but it wasn’t instant, but eventually so many
0:40:09 web designers quit within the first two to three years, right? Like I remember when I first got started,
0:40:15 I would just go look at people’s websites that I knew were web designers and there would be a website
0:40:20 not found, 403 error, and they were done. You know, it was two to three years in. And so eventually,
0:40:29 if you stick with it long enough, you outpace all of your competition. And so you become the person that
0:40:36 shows up first. And another thing that I did, which I think really helped me was I had those friends that I
0:40:41 did really cheap or free that free website for. And I just said, Hey, you know, I’m doing this website
0:40:49 for you. Will you go leave a review in Google for me? Having some type of social proof within Google
0:40:57 is so important. And they really favor that type of method with testimonies. And they would prefer that
0:41:04 you get rated on Google itself, but any type of rating anywhere is going to help you. And getting
0:41:09 a rating from a client is not easy. Most of us think we did a good job and the client says they love it
0:41:15 and they pay us and they’re going to go leave a raving review. No, it’s just simply not that simple.
0:41:21 You have to have a good system of follow-up with a client to make sure that they are actually giving
0:41:25 you feedback. And a lot of times, like I would tell clients like, Hey, I’ll write this for you.
0:41:29 Like, what do you think about this paragraph? And they’re like, yeah, sure. Great. I’ll put my name
0:41:33 on it and I’ll put it in. You’ve got to be intentional if you want to get good feedback.
0:41:39 Yeah, that’s a hundred percent true. And so few businesses have that system in place to solicit,
0:41:43 especially Google reviews, but even Yelp reviews and these other platforms where
0:41:47 these are really high authority domains. Like they show up really prominently
0:41:53 in search. And so if you can find your way to the top of those rankings and I should check my wife’s
0:41:58 business, like for a long time, they were on the first page for Livermore wedding photographers,
0:42:04 because again, it’s a, it’s kind of a suburb. It’s kind of a smaller town. It’s not that competitive.
0:42:09 You do a few things right in terms of on-page SEO. Like there wasn’t any proactive link building.
0:42:14 It was just asking happy clients to drop in a review and all of a sudden there you are like
0:42:21 free traffic. Yep. And that’s really similar to my story. Like I, I wasn’t doing a lot of
0:42:27 link building. I wasn’t even writing a ton of content. I just said that I was in this city,
0:42:33 put my address there. And then I asked people to write Google reviews. And I wish I could say there
0:42:40 was more secret sauce to it because that sounds so simple. Now I’m curious, was there ever a thought
0:42:46 to go after Phoenix web designer or is it like, I can’t compete. That’s too big. I’m going to go for
0:42:52 my little suburb. Yeah. Well, little suburb there’s, there’s still quite a few people here in Gilbert,
0:42:58 like all of the cities surrounding Phoenix are pretty big. And, and I knew there was enough business
0:43:03 here to keep me busy for the rest of my career as a web designer. Okay. That’s a, that’s a really
0:43:08 positive way to look at it. Right. You know, and I think there might be some people listening who,
0:43:13 who live in smaller towns. And I mean, this might be a little bit different of an equation for you,
0:43:19 but even let’s say if there’s 30,000 people or there’s 20,000 people in your city, there’s still
0:43:26 good work to be done within that small group of people. And so don’t just necessarily dismiss it right
0:43:32 away. But I have seen a few people use the strategy of really focusing on building content around three
0:43:37 cities that are close to them that they want to focus on. But I just knew like, okay, there,
0:43:42 when I Google web designers, Phoenix area, there, there’s a lot of competition there.
0:43:49 When I Google web designers, Gilbert area, there’s not nearly as much competition. Maybe one day I go for
0:43:54 Phoenix, but for now I’m a small fish in a big pond. And so I’m happy to take my little
0:43:58 corner of the world over here and just be content.
0:44:06 Right. Better to be on page one for a lower volume, highly targeted search term than be on page eight for
0:44:11 a higher volume search term. What’s next with this thing? So you mentioned you’re working on
0:44:16 selfmadewebdesigner.com. Chris has got a podcast over there. If you’re interested in this business model,
0:44:21 so you’re not actively bidding on new work, if it comes to you, fantastic. I’ll take a look.
0:44:25 Or are you building like an agency? Like, you know, do you want to go full time? Like, I’m curious,
0:44:28 what’s what’s coming down the road for your work here?
0:44:35 Well, the biggest pivot that I made was this last year, I went from my full time job as a worship
0:44:40 pastor for a church to being a full time UX designer at the company that I’m at right now. It’s called
0:44:46 Show It. And so I knew I wanted to go full time. And I was honestly considering just going full time
0:44:52 into freelancing. But the company Show It, like I just resonated so much with their mission and the
0:44:57 heart of the people that are running the business, the CEO. And it just seemed it was four miles away
0:45:02 from my house. So it seemed like a no brainer to go, you know what, I think there might be a little
0:45:08 destiny here for me to be a part of this business. So that was kind of my big step with web design.
0:45:13 And then really, my focus right now is to build selfmadewebdesigner.com to really help people.
0:45:20 And that all started, there was a young guy who’s on our staff at Show It. And he’s actually going to
0:45:26 school for computer science. And we were on our company retreat, all relaxing in a hot tub. And I was
0:45:33 like, hey, man, like, why aren’t you doing any web design work? Like, you know more now than what I did
0:45:36 when I first started telling people I was a web designer. Like, why aren’t you going for it?
0:45:42 And his response was, well, I’m just afraid. I’m just scared. Like, I don’t know if I’ll be able
0:45:47 to find projects. I don’t know if I’ll be able to do a good job. I don’t know the ins and outs of all
0:45:53 these things that it seems like are so complicated. And I was like, oh man, like, let me help you take
0:45:59 the next steps. Let me help you. I’ll walk you through the process. And so sure enough, he was up
0:46:04 for it and helped him find his first gig and kind of helped him through that. And then after that,
0:46:10 he just skyrocketed, started getting his own gigs and now has more work. He’s a college student. He’s making
0:46:12 like $120 an hour on the side as a freelancer.
0:46:15 Oh, it’s awesome. Yeah. And you’re like, hey, if I can do it, you could do it.
0:46:22 Right. And so my thought was like, man, there’s got to be more people out there like Josh. And my heart
0:46:27 is always to build, like, I don’t necessarily want to build a business as much as I want to build a
0:46:33 legacy. And so I’d love to build a legacy of people who can learn how to do what I’ve done
0:46:38 and have it change their lives. Like, like it changed mine. That really, like, I wish I could
0:46:43 tell you like, yeah, no, I’m, I’m automating everything and farming out the work, but no,
0:46:47 that’s not, I’ve, I’ve never had a heart to do that. I’ve, I’ve more had a heart to teach people
0:46:49 and to help people along their own journey.
0:46:55 Well, and it’s, it’s kind of this domino effect for all of the businesses that you’ve served and all
0:46:59 of the customers that they serve. And now all the people that you’re helping get started in this
0:47:03 business and the domino effect, the ripple effect of all that, you’re touching a lot of lives.
0:47:08 Yeah. Well, you too, Nick, you know, I mean, everything you’ve done, I, when I was first
0:47:14 getting started, I was desperately looking for any type of insight as a side hustler and as a
0:47:20 freelancer. And back in the day, your podcast was one of the bright shining beacons out there,
0:47:24 and it still is to this day. So just really appreciate everything you’ve done.
0:47:28 Well, I’m always looking for more success stories like yours. So if you’re listening in and
0:47:33 have a similar one, definitely hit me up. So Chris, very much appreciate you reaching out
0:47:39 and joining me and sharing the story, selfmadewebdesigner.com. Check them out over there.
0:47:43 Let’s wrap this thing up with your number one tip for side hustle nation.
0:47:50 Yeah. My number one tip would be don’t quit. And I know that sounds simplistic, but it’s going to be
0:47:58 so incredibly enticing just to give up as soon as you face resistance. But I always encourage people,
0:48:00 if you don’t quit, you win.
0:48:05 All right. I like that. If you don’t quit, you win. Keep playing the game. I just read
0:48:11 the infinite game by Simon Sinek. And he said that was the hallmark of infinite leaders. He called them
0:48:16 infinite leaders. They, they don’t play to win the quarter or the year they play to keep playing the
0:48:21 game. But I like that. Don’t quit. Chris, thanks so much. And we’ll catch up with you soon.
0:48:30 All right. My top three takeaways from this call with Chris. Number one is to always keep learning.
0:48:36 Like Chris explained, you don’t need to be the best in the world to get started, but you do need to
0:48:42 embrace a lifelong learning mindset. It’s hard to imagine an industry that’s stood still over the
0:48:47 last 10 or 20 years. So there’s always going to be new stuff to learn. I think that’s one thing that
0:48:53 makes my job these days so exciting and rewarding is that I get to learn new skills, experiment with
0:48:59 them, try stuff out in real time and try and get better. Everything is learnable. Everything is
0:49:04 Google-able or YouTube-able. And I really love Chris’s attitude here of continuing education,
0:49:11 not just being a requirement to check off, but being a requirement to stay relevant and to fuel your own
0:49:16 motivation. So that’s number one. Keep learning. Takeaway number two was to start with your network.
0:49:23 This is a common theme in many a side hustle show episode, but it’s that for an important reason.
0:49:30 You probably already have a bigger quote audience than you give yourself credit for. These are people
0:49:35 who are hopefully rooting for your success. And if they may not be ideal customers themselves,
0:49:41 they might know someone who is. But if you don’t tell people about your work, remember Chris said he
0:49:46 started introducing himself as a web designer. They can’t make those referrals. I know I’ve told
0:49:52 this story before, but when the show started, I didn’t have any audience to speak of, but I did have
0:49:57 a decade of personal and business contacts. So I reached out to those people individually to tell
0:50:04 them about this new project. If you’re just sitting back and waiting for SEO or some other algorithm in
0:50:10 order to get found, it might eventually work, but I think you can accelerate that if you start spreading
0:50:15 the word yourself. So that’s takeaway number two for me here. Start with your network. And takeaway
0:50:22 number three is the only known cure for imposter syndrome is doing the work. Chris didn’t call this
0:50:28 common entrepreneurial hurdle by name, but he did talk about the fear and mindset issues that sometimes
0:50:34 come up. So how do you overcome imposter syndrome? You practice. I think everyone will face this at
0:50:41 some time or another, but remember every expert was once a beginner. If they let that fear and imposter
0:50:47 syndrome paralyze them, they never would have gotten past that beginner stage. I know it’s tough. I know
0:50:54 I’ve been there too, but from all the interviews, I think I found the cure and it’s to do the work only
0:50:59 through practice and repetition. Are you going to build that confidence and be able to silence that
0:51:04 inner critic that says you’re not good enough. So if you’re thinking you’re not good enough,
0:51:09 you’re not going to get good enough sitting on the sidelines. Go get good enough. You got this.
0:51:14 Once again, notes and links from this one, plus the full text summary of our call with all of Chris’s
0:51:21 top tips are at side hustle nation.com slash self made. That’s it for me. Thank you so much for
0:51:25 tuning in until next time. Let’s go out there and make something happen. And I’ll catch you in the
0:51:29 next edition of the side hustle show. I’ll see you then hustle on.