From $4/Hour to $4 Billion Net Worth

0:00:04 If I told you that a kid flunked out of first grade, I don’t think the first thing you would say is,
0:00:05 that’s a future billionaire.
0:00:10 You probably would have joined the crowd of people that made fun of me for being dumb.
0:00:16 Today, he’s known as this guy you see on the cover of Forbes, tech entrepreneur, this billionaire,
0:00:19 sun god because of all the work he’s done in the solar industry.
0:00:23 But the crazy thing about Hayes is that his story is very much a started from the bottom story.
0:00:27 A lot of great leaders that are level five leaders, there’s daddy issues,
0:00:30 there’s learning disabilities, or there’s a near-death experience.
0:00:32 Hayes pretty much never does podcasts.
0:00:35 I pulled the friend card, I asked him to do this because I think he’s got a story worth telling.
0:00:38 I’ve never told that one before, definitely on camera, but…
0:00:40 You’re in the eye of the storm, right?
0:00:43 Like, the 08 subprime mortgage crisis, you’re in the mortgage business.
0:00:48 I would like literally throw up in my driveway before I could go see my family every night.
0:00:52 You said, the difference between rejection results is just how long you stick with it.
0:00:54 A lot of people quit when it gets hard.
0:00:56 Sometimes you don’t even know you’re quitting.
0:01:00 You just come up with a reason why you think you need to quit.
0:01:02 What was it like meeting you on the first time?
0:01:06 Well, when I met Elon for the first time…
0:01:09 I feel like I can rule the world.
0:01:11 I know I can be what I want to.
0:01:14 I put my all in it like my days off.
0:01:16 On the road, let’s travel.
0:01:18 I think what’s interesting about your story, because I have all the research here,
0:01:24 and if I just zoom out and I just think about it, I think, how does a guy who flunked out of first grade
0:01:26 end up, you know, one of the…
0:01:27 Miss Macy’s class.
0:01:27 Yeah.
0:01:28 Shout out to Miss Macy.
0:01:32 How does that guy end up, you know, where you are today?
0:01:33 Super successful.
0:01:35 You’ve built a $10 billion company.
0:01:38 You’re doing what a lot of entrepreneurs want to do, right?
0:01:42 Like, if I think about how I got into entrepreneurship, like, what would have been the win?
0:01:44 The win would have been, I’m having fun.
0:01:47 I am building a company that matters.
0:01:48 You know, I’m having the success.
0:01:49 I’m doing it with talented people.
0:01:52 You know, one of your co-founders is like a fourth grade friend.
0:01:53 So that’s kind of…
0:01:54 That is winning to me.
0:01:55 And you’ve done that.
0:01:58 And so I think what’s exciting to me is to hear, I guess, how you approach this.
0:02:03 How you’ve gone from the guy who can flunk out of first grade to make that happen.
0:02:07 If I had met you when you were a kid, maybe 12, 13 years old, 14 years old,
0:02:10 would you call yourself like, were you really ambitious then?
0:02:11 Were you really smart?
0:02:15 Oh, you, if you would have met me in grade school, you probably would have joined the
0:02:20 crowd of a lot of people that made fun of me for, you know, being dumb.
0:02:25 You know, I would go to this room called the resource room and the resource room for kids
0:02:26 that couldn’t read.
0:02:31 And so then I would go and I would write all my letters backwards and they would like give
0:02:34 me a Dick and Jane book to read in the third grade and I would struggle through it.
0:02:37 And it was soul crushing.
0:02:37 You’re dyslexic, right?
0:02:38 Yeah.
0:02:38 Yeah.
0:02:43 I have dysgraphia in a form of dyslexia and I didn’t, no one knew what it was in those
0:02:44 days.
0:02:48 People just thought you were stupid and people just thought that you just couldn’t read and
0:02:51 you couldn’t keep up, which is why I flunked the first grade.
0:02:56 So it’s not fun when you flunk the first grade, when all your friends that go to the second grade
0:03:01 make fun of you every year for basically 12 years of your life to know you’re the kid that
0:03:02 flunked the first grade.
0:03:02 Yeah.
0:03:05 Cause we were all friends in the first grade and then you didn’t go with the rest of the
0:03:05 kids.
0:03:11 And so I had a lot of, um, self-confidence issues.
0:03:15 I would say I had a lot of questions about, you know, whether or not I was even going to
0:03:18 be able to provide for myself at that moment in time.
0:03:20 I overcompensated with sports.
0:03:26 I guess I overcompensated with, um, you know, trying to be a dynamic person.
0:03:31 I don’t know that I overcompensated in the best ways, but I had a couple of teachers
0:03:32 that took me under their wing.
0:03:34 There’s this one guy, Ron Edwards.
0:03:35 He was the gym teacher.
0:03:38 He was this amazing guy, man.
0:03:41 And, um, you know, you gotta imagine I don’t have a father.
0:03:42 I’m raised by a single mom.
0:03:46 And he kind of stepped in and he would be like, he knew I loved football.
0:03:48 And he would say, look, Hayes, do you want to go in?
0:03:53 At the time, the St. Louis Cardinals were there and there was this, uh, quarterback,
0:03:54 his name was Jim Hart.
0:03:56 And there was this running back.
0:03:57 His name was OJ Anderson.
0:04:02 And that was like my outlet that I was like a fast runner, you know, cause I wasn’t good
0:04:02 at school.
0:04:03 You gotta be good at something.
0:04:05 My man, I gotta, I need something.
0:04:07 I need some thing that I can anchor on that.
0:04:08 Maybe I’m good at something.
0:04:13 And it was the only thing I was good at was the 40 yard dash, but he would take me to these
0:04:17 banquets where I would have the opportunity to meet Jim Hart or OJ Anderson.
0:04:23 And it was just kind of a lens for, oh, okay, these guys, maybe, maybe there’s a way out.
0:04:29 And so now if you meet somebody who maybe as a kid, who’s dyslexic or has a learning disability
0:04:34 like that, what’s the perspective you have now, now with the benefit of hindsight, uh, about
0:04:37 those same kind of like quote unquote limitations.
0:04:38 Well, it’s interesting.
0:04:45 Now when you sit down with, with people, um, that have achieved extraordinary outcomes and
0:04:47 Jim Collins wrote a book about this called good to great.
0:04:52 He talked about level five leaders and I had an opportunity to have lunch with Jim Collins
0:04:52 at Stanford.
0:04:55 It had to be 15 years ago.
0:04:56 And this was an unlock for me.
0:04:58 And he goes, Hey, you’re a level five leader.
0:05:03 You know, you’re operating on this frequency that allows you to, you know, create these business
0:05:04 and do these things.
0:05:05 I’m like, how, what is the level five leader?
0:05:11 What’s the, well, oftentimes with a level five leader, they have a great deal of compassion
0:05:13 and empathy for people.
0:05:14 They’ll off.
0:05:15 They often give up to go up.
0:05:21 They have the ability to empower people instead of micromanage people, recruit top talent and
0:05:24 put them in a place that allows those organizations to scale.
0:05:31 And so the reason is for this, if you dig a couple layers lower is oftentimes they have
0:05:32 a learning disability.
0:05:34 Many times they’re on the spectrum.
0:05:40 And so people that have Ausbergers or they’re on the spectrum when they’re in school, they
0:05:41 get made fun of a lot too.
0:05:46 This, this turns out this big T trauma where all your friends make fun of you and you don’t
0:05:49 have a lot of friends and you’re an outcast as a young person.
0:05:56 Wants you to do things later in your life to gain affirmation and get respect, especially
0:05:59 if you’re a male and you want male affirmation.
0:06:05 The second component of that, that often you’ll see is, uh, daddy issues.
0:06:05 Okay.
0:06:10 A lot of great leaders that are level five leaders have pretty severe daddy issues.
0:06:12 They had a major falling out with their father.
0:06:16 Maybe it’s a situation like me where my father left when I was two.
0:06:18 So I don’t really remember meeting my dad.
0:06:20 I didn’t meet him until I was, I think, you know,
0:06:21 around 30 years old.
0:06:26 And so when you dig into some of these level five leaders, you go, oh, there it is.
0:06:29 There’s, he’s looking for male affirmation.
0:06:30 He’s looking for respect.
0:06:35 Um, he’s, that’s why he grinds and does the hundred, hundred hour weeks to gain that affirmation.
0:06:44 And the third one oftentimes is, uh, it’s a near death experience or it’s a, um, career
0:06:47 ending injury in sports or something along those lines.
0:06:53 And that will force that individual to make a greater sacrifice that, and, and, and it
0:06:57 also forced them not to quit in the face of a pretty significant amount of adversity, which
0:07:00 unfortunately, uh, you know, a lot of founders and leaders do.
0:07:01 You said a phrase in there.
0:07:03 You said they, they get, what’d you say?
0:07:04 They give up to get up.
0:07:04 What did you say?
0:07:06 You gotta, you gotta give up to go up.
0:07:11 So when you’re really bright, let’s say you’re the guy that gets a 35 out of 36 on the ACT
0:07:16 or you get a, you know, 1550 on the, on the SAT.
0:07:16 You’re an achiever.
0:07:17 Yeah.
0:07:21 You get to brag about it, you know, at the, at the cocktail parties about what you did and
0:07:24 you realize like, I’m the smartest guy in the class.
0:07:25 Okay.
0:07:29 By the way, my two business partners, Jason Walker and Matt Dawson were the smartest guys
0:07:30 in the class.
0:07:33 They had all the tassels when we graduated from high school, all the tassels.
0:07:34 We graduated from college.
0:07:35 I wasn’t stupid.
0:07:36 I’m like, Hey, I want you guys on my side.
0:07:36 Right.
0:07:40 And there’s lots of other people in my life where they were the smartest person in the
0:07:45 class, the smartest person in the class, oftentimes it’s not ego.
0:07:52 It’s actually, um, they’re just very competent and they get frustrated quickly with other
0:07:55 people that it takes them longer to learn things.
0:07:55 And so what do they do?
0:07:56 They said, forget it.
0:07:57 I’ll just do it on my own, right?
0:07:58 I’ll do it more efficiently.
0:07:59 I can do it faster.
0:08:04 Why would I take an hour to train this individual on how to do it when I can do it myself in 15
0:08:04 minutes?
0:08:09 Well, the problem is they keep doing that same task over and over and over for 15 minutes and
0:08:12 they never give up to go up and they end up becoming a control freak.
0:08:16 And then they wonder why their business isn’t going to scale because they have to be involved
0:08:18 in everything all the time.
0:08:24 And so someone that has, um, dyslexia as an example, well, you learn to surround yourself
0:08:26 with really smart people, right?
0:08:27 They can do, Oh, wow.
0:08:29 You’re amazing at bond math.
0:08:32 You’re like the best math mind I’ve ever met in my entire lifetime.
0:08:34 I’d like to start a company with you.
0:08:35 You’re brilliant.
0:08:41 And so you start to surround yourself with all these really talented, amazing, extraordinary
0:08:42 minds.
0:08:43 They’re good at different things.
0:08:47 And instead of trying to do it on your own, you’re celebrating that talent around you.
0:08:48 Right.
0:08:50 Have you ever heard what Ari Emanuel says about this?
0:08:51 What?
0:08:56 So Ari, who runs CAA now Endeavor, uh, he’s, he also, I think was dyslexic.
0:09:00 And so there, somebody was asking him, they’re like, how do you read contracts?
0:09:02 So your whole business is contracts.
0:09:04 Basically you’re, you’re a talent agent.
0:09:06 Like you’re every day is contracts.
0:09:09 He’s like, I sit in a room with people who are amazing at contracts.
0:09:10 He’s like, because I couldn’t.
0:09:13 He’s like, I literally could not focus enough to get through it.
0:09:19 So I just built, I built a machine of people like, who can I bring in that will bring that
0:09:19 to the table?
0:09:21 And the same thing, like I respect them.
0:09:22 I value them.
0:09:23 I need them.
0:09:24 And they know that.
0:09:27 And we, because of that, I am able to have my zone of genius.
0:09:27 They’re able to have theirs.
0:09:30 And we built a great, you know, team from that.
0:09:30 Yeah.
0:09:39 You worked with and for Larry Ellison and with Elon, both of whom I would say are like
0:09:43 kind of legends in the, in Silicon Valley and as, as leaders, long-time leaders of companies.
0:09:46 What was their style?
0:09:47 Is it similar to what you said?
0:09:48 Do they have their own play style?
0:09:49 That’s totally different.
0:09:49 And give me a sense.
0:09:51 How close proximity were you?
0:09:51 Yeah.
0:09:57 I was probably like six levels away from, from Larry Ellison because literally I was a kid
0:10:02 in a cubicle that was, um, a good bother of database administrators.
0:10:04 I would basically have my headset on.
0:10:08 I would call you, I would bother you to buy, buy Oracle 7.0.
0:10:11 They were like, oh man, you’re so good at bothering people.
0:10:14 We’re going to let you manage 12 other people and teach them how to bother people.
0:10:15 Yeah.
0:10:15 Yeah.
0:10:19 It’s like, Hey, can you teach the other 12 people how to bother people and sell Oracle
0:10:20 8.0?
0:10:22 I was like, yeah, no, no problem at all.
0:10:25 And then they were like, wow, you know, we’re thinking about not selling one or two products,
0:10:27 but like 300 products.
0:10:30 So by the end of it, you know, I was there about eight years.
0:10:32 You know, I, I, I was fortunate.
0:10:33 I was a global account manager.
0:10:36 I could sell the whole suite of products and different things.
0:10:41 But what I learned the most was one, what phenomenal products do the fact that you could
0:10:46 sell air for 80, $90 million and all you ship was a CD blew my mind.
0:10:53 I just couldn’t believe this whole concept of software and, and, and the talent of people
0:10:56 that could come together to deploy those assets at that stage.
0:11:00 And like the information age, it was the biggest wealth creator at the time when I was there is
0:11:04 between Bill Gates and Larry Ellison on who was the wealthiest individual in the world at
0:11:05 the time.
0:11:11 And so I was super inspired by Larry Ellison and very inspired by the collective talent
0:11:14 that they recruited and, and surrounded you with.
0:11:15 What’s his superpower, right?
0:11:18 You said at the time, maybe one of the wealthiest people in the world.
0:11:18 Vision.
0:11:19 He could pivot.
0:11:23 I mean, you know, obviously we just started with, as a database company and there was a
0:11:25 handful of other database companies at the time.
0:11:31 I mean, it was like Sybase, Informix, uh, you know, um, SQL server with Microsoft.
0:11:36 And then some of those started to drop off or we acquired them, but the superpower was his
0:11:41 ability to have big, bold vision and ideas to go, nope, now we’re going to be an applications
0:11:41 company.
0:11:43 No, now we’re going to be a middleware company.
0:11:46 Now we’re going to go acquire some of the hardware providers.
0:11:49 Now we’re going to become a software as a service company.
0:11:56 And being able to persuade an organization of that size at the time to shift those gears
0:12:01 and, and people, it was such an aspirational, inspirational place to work with such urgency.
0:12:08 Like no matter how much we grew, you know, just the urgency to close out a quarter or the urgency
0:12:14 to close out a year, um, you just saw the grind factor and the give a shit factor from a group
0:12:14 of people.
0:12:16 It was next level.
0:12:19 And so I, I learned like, I learned how to grind.
0:12:21 I learned like, yeah, this is why you come in on a Saturday.
0:12:24 This is why you get in the office at five 30 in the morning.
0:12:26 This is why you skip your lunch.
0:12:27 This is why you go to training.
0:12:31 And so a lot of people candidly, they were going to go play basketball at three o’clock
0:12:32 in the afternoon.
0:12:37 Cause Larry built out all these amazing facilities with basketball courts and six restaurants and
0:12:38 all these things.
0:12:41 And I was like, nope, I’m going to go back into training class.
0:12:44 I’m going to sit down and I’m going to go learn about, you know, negotiation skills.
0:12:49 I’m going to go learn about all these various courses you could take to learn about the
0:12:50 technology, obviously.
0:12:55 So if you were a feverish learner and you were driven by growth, um, it was, it was just
0:12:57 a platform where you could run as fast as you could.
0:13:00 And his mindset was, I don’t care if you’re 23 years old.
0:13:02 I don’t care if you went to Harvard, Stanford, Princeton, Yale.
0:13:06 All I care about is your numbers, hit the numbers, get promoted.
0:13:10 And so humbly every year I got promoted in this company.
0:13:14 Um, and they would joke, you know, when I would join the team, they go, okay, we know you’re
0:13:15 going to be our boss next year.
0:13:21 Um, but it just came down to work ethic and your ability to post up numbers, um, against
0:13:22 your, your peers.
0:13:23 It was very competitive.
0:13:25 The bottom 20% got cut.
0:13:31 The top 20% got promoted and you could look around and it didn’t matter age, race, you know,
0:13:31 anything.
0:13:33 It just came down to performance.
0:13:38 It’s like, it’s like a pro sports team more than it is like, cause you know, people describe
0:13:43 it like, oh, we’re a family or, you know, they try to create like comfortable environments,
0:13:47 but it sounds like this was more competitive and meritocratic in terms of the culture.
0:13:48 Absolutely.
0:13:50 And it was, it was high risk, high reward.
0:13:53 I mean, if you, if you performed, you were compensated accordingly.
0:13:58 You know, I made a tremendous amount of income as a young individual there.
0:14:03 And what you started to see is the confidence build amongst all these other individuals on
0:14:07 what they could achieve when they were pushed to the, to their peak performance level.
0:14:13 And so you started to see people like, um, you know, Craig Conway leave and go run PeopleSoft
0:14:17 at the time, which was our biggest competitor on the HR software side of the business.
0:14:18 Tom Siebel left.
0:14:23 He built this amazing software program we use to do all of our customer resource management
0:14:24 called Oasis.
0:14:30 And Tom Siebel left to do, to go start Siebel Systems and, um, and he created a great company.
0:14:33 Another gentleman left to go start, uh, NetSuite.
0:14:36 Mark Benioff leaves to go start salesforce.com.
0:14:43 So you see all these individuals and learning and, and believing in themselves and their ability
0:14:48 to perform regardless of their background or where they grew up from a kid that grew up in
0:14:53 Crevecore, Missouri with his mom in an apartment while she worked three jobs and, and, you know,
0:14:58 walked to the washer and dryer every day to, you know, the, the, the guy that, you know,
0:15:02 had an undergrad from Harvard and, and went to GSB at Stanford.
0:15:04 You were all equals.
0:15:04 Right.
0:15:08 And then you watch these people and their ability to go launch their own companies.
0:15:14 And in some cases, Larry was very supportive and, you know, he was a big investor in salesforce.com
0:15:16 as an example, when Mark left and did that.
0:15:19 And then the others he acquired, he acquired PeopleSoft back.
0:15:21 He acquired Siebel Systems back.
0:15:23 He acquired NetSuite back.
0:15:27 And so it was just really interesting to see collaborative alphas.
0:15:27 Right.
0:15:32 Like a group of people that just saw themselves as, as the ability to kind of create technology
0:15:36 within the Valley and the level of respect and admiration that we all shared with one
0:15:37 another, right?
0:15:39 Hey, I got a quick break.
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0:15:55 They start a business on the side, they get it going, and then it becomes their main hustle
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0:16:32 All right, back to the show.
0:16:33 Thanks, HubSpot.
0:16:38 You also get the it’s to leave to start your own thing.
0:16:42 Well, you see all those other individuals leave, you can’t help but be inspired.
0:16:43 But you have a cushy job at that point.
0:16:45 It wasn’t cushy.
0:16:45 I got to tell you.
0:16:46 You’re making good money, let’s say.
0:16:47 Yeah, I was making good money.
0:16:48 I was making really good money.
0:16:55 When you’re making seven figures and you’re like, I don’t know, man, 25, 26 years old
0:16:59 from a kid in Missouri, like your head explodes.
0:17:01 What’d you do with the money as a young kid, by the way?
0:17:01 Did you?
0:17:02 Nothing.
0:17:03 I couldn’t believe it was real.
0:17:04 I just kept it in my bank account.
0:17:06 You know, I put it under the mattress.
0:17:11 Yeah, I was sharing an apartment with Matt Dawson and down the marina in San Francisco running
0:17:13 the Golden Gate Bridge every day.
0:17:17 And Matt and I started to whiteboard all these crazy ideas in our apartment.
0:17:18 What was on the table?
0:17:19 What’s on the whiteboard?
0:17:20 Matt would laugh, man.
0:17:22 So like, so we loved Tahoe.
0:17:26 He and I built this home in Tahoe and there was this guy, his name is Randy Palmean.
0:17:29 And Randy Palmean had a hot tub company.
0:17:31 And so Matt and I had this idea.
0:17:34 I was like, man, we could just buy Randy Palmean’s hot tub company.
0:17:37 I’m sure Randy’s like a little checked out.
0:17:38 He’s getting older.
0:17:39 He’s ready to sell it.
0:17:45 And I mean, the annual reoccurring revenue of these hot tubs and the maintenance of these
0:17:47 hot tubs could be a great business around Lake Tahoe.
0:17:49 We’ll snowboard in the winter.
0:17:53 We’ll wake surf in the summer and we’ll just take care of the hot tub business.
0:17:54 We almost did it.
0:17:55 Like literally, he’s the hot tub guy.
0:17:58 We talked to our fiancés at the time.
0:17:59 They’re our wives now.
0:18:02 And we were like, well, do you guys think you would move to Tahoe with us?
0:18:06 We could all live in this one house that we built up in Kigswood Estates.
0:18:08 You know, this house Matt and I built up there together.
0:18:13 And we’ll raise our kids there and we’ll just sell hot tubs and we’ll maintain hot tubs.
0:18:15 Let’s put it this way.
0:18:16 The wives shut that one down.
0:18:18 Mostly the living together was the problem.
0:18:19 Yeah, yeah.
0:18:22 They were like, no, we’re not doing that.
0:18:23 We thought about starting a car wash.
0:18:27 We put a bunch of time and energy into, hey, we could start all these different car washes
0:18:27 together.
0:18:34 And then ultimately what we decided was, and this was based on kind of a background of learning
0:18:36 that you could remotely sell anything.
0:18:41 Once you realize you can sell really complex items, like we were selling from a software
0:18:44 perspective, you can do it virtually over the internet.
0:18:46 You’re like, okay, you can sell anything virtually over the internet.
0:18:49 It was a huge breakthrough moment for me in my career.
0:18:51 And that led to everything else that I did.
0:18:58 And so ultimately I said, hey, what if we took Matt and Jason’s background in residential
0:19:00 mortgages and we just digitized it?
0:19:08 We just created a virtual technology platform that allowed us to sell these mortgages and
0:19:09 other financial products.
0:19:11 Maybe it could be insurance or other things virtually.
0:19:16 So you were like, I could take my sales playbook, maybe not playbook, but my sales experience
0:19:21 of like, I could sell this stuff over the phone and through the internet, but now let’s find
0:19:22 a product that might work for it.
0:19:24 Not hot tubs, but mortgages.
0:19:25 What was that?
0:19:29 I guess, what was the sales model back then?
0:19:33 Is this like Google ads didn’t lead into a phone call or there’s no Google ads?
0:19:33 No, no, there’s no Google ads.
0:19:36 There’s barely the internet at this point in time.
0:19:37 What was the model?
0:19:37 What were we doing?
0:19:39 Well, yeah, so here, let’s just go back in time.
0:19:45 So 97, 98 is when the internet really starts to catch some tailwinds, right?
0:19:51 And so you start hearing about the dot-com verticals and this is all the big dot-com companies
0:19:52 start popping up.
0:19:57 Well, really, when you look back at the internet in those days and what was going on, the internet
0:20:01 was a way to sell things online, right?
0:20:03 It was like, hey, do you want to do a trade?
0:20:06 Maybe you want to do that on E-Trade.
0:20:08 Do you want to, you know, do you remember Webvan?
0:20:09 I don’t know, right?
0:20:13 If you want to buy groceries or anything, you can buy them online and Webvan will deliver
0:20:16 them to you at your home at books on Amazon.
0:20:21 So it was basically like, hey, now there’s this virtual retail environment where you could sell
0:20:21 anything.
0:20:26 So it led you to think, okay, well, what are complicated things that everybody needs in
0:20:32 the world that you could basically bring to the virtual e-commerce world?
0:20:35 It’s what people are doing today with Agentic AI.
0:20:36 It’s the same thing.
0:20:39 How do I take a complex business that’s very people intensive?
0:20:40 Maybe it’s an insurance company.
0:20:42 Maybe it’s a mortgage company.
0:20:44 I’ll just bring Agentic AI into it and I’ll automate it.
0:20:47 Well, that’s what people were thinking about in 97, 98.
0:20:52 And so our idea when I left in 2003, right?
0:20:56 Because what happens is dot-com crash happens in 2000.
0:20:58 Everybody gets wiped out.
0:21:01 85, 90% of everybody gets wiped out.
0:21:07 Google launches around 98, 99 once everyone gets crushed and becomes Google.
0:21:11 But that was my window where I said, okay, I’ve been here eight years.
0:21:14 I’ve seen a lot of people come and go.
0:21:16 I’ve seen a tremendous amount of success.
0:21:18 I’ve seen a tremendous amount of failure.
0:21:22 I think now I’ve got the maturity to think of a big enough idea that can really scale.
0:21:25 And basically, I can take advantage of the internet wave.
0:21:27 The information age had already happened.
0:21:30 Those guys had murdered it and became the wealthiest people in the world.
0:21:35 It was Jobs, it was Gates, it was Andy Grove, it was Larry Ellison.
0:21:38 And so now it became the internet age.
0:21:39 And I was like, okay.
0:21:42 And I basically created a bad version of Quicken Loans.
0:21:45 Dan Gilbert and Quicken Loans did it a lot better than I did.
0:21:47 Same idea, same time.
0:21:50 Dan was a little ahead of me and executed it significantly better.
0:21:51 I’m curious.
0:21:54 Well, they bought into it, right?
0:21:59 So that was kind of like the, or they kind of branched out of into it.
0:22:02 And they had a tremendous amount of capital.
0:22:06 And they really invested in technology in a thoughtful way
0:22:10 that allowed their organization to scale and build a bigger brand.
0:22:11 Dan was older than me.
0:22:12 He was more mature than me.
0:22:16 He was just a better entrepreneur than me, period, at that point in time.
0:22:19 I was like a 30-year-old kid, you know, with the big dream,
0:22:22 trying to figure it out with my two best friends from the fourth grade
0:22:24 and my sophomore year of business school.
0:22:25 And you guys self-funded?
0:22:26 Did it work right away?
0:22:27 Were you-
0:22:28 We totally self-funded it.
0:22:32 I think we each put in like 50 grand or something along those lines, you know?
0:22:36 And so it, well, we, humbly, we created success very quickly.
0:22:40 We decided to move to Sacramento, California from the Silicon Valley
0:22:43 because we were going to do these cheesy radio commercials.
0:22:46 And I got stuck doing the cheesy radio commercials.
0:22:48 I’m so embarrassed by it to this day.
0:22:50 I literally like, hey, hi, I’m Hayes-
0:22:51 Yeah, what’s the ad?
0:22:52 Oh God, it was so bad.
0:22:57 It was like, I had this breathy voice and I would be like, hi, I’m Hayes Barnard.
0:23:01 You know, call me and, you know, get a rate in the fours,
0:23:04 which is like the, you know, interest rates were in the fours for like 10 years.
0:23:07 So I just said the same rate for basically a decade of my life.
0:23:12 And then my last line was, I’m so confident I can save you money.
0:23:14 I’ll even pay for your home to be appraised.
0:23:18 And this is when like Wells Fargo or Bank of America or all these players,
0:23:20 they have to charge you 600 bucks for an appraisal.
0:23:22 And I thought, hey, okay, that’s a nice thing to do.
0:23:29 I’ll give you the appraisal for free if you just give us an opportunity to do your mortgage online for you.
0:23:31 But it was, it’s just funny the things you do, Sean.
0:23:35 Have you ever done anything like, like when you look back at your life and go,
0:23:41 I cannot believe I actually did that, but it was like a stepping stone for get you to another stage in your life.
0:23:42 My first business was a sushi restaurant chain.
0:23:43 So yeah.
0:23:43 Yeah, good.
0:23:49 And then even worse, like, you know, we were, this is before DoorDash, before Uber Eats,
0:23:53 we were, it was like a delivery only because we didn’t want to sign a 10-year lease.
0:23:55 We were like, we don’t even know if people want this concept to exist.
0:23:56 Trying to build the Chipotle of sushi.
0:24:02 And so I used to go not door to door, but floor to floor in a skyscraper because I realized
0:24:05 the front desk lady orders lunch for everybody in the office.
0:24:08 The most viral way to teach everybody in the office that we exist.
0:24:13 It’s like, if I could just schmooze the first front desk lady, I can get like a floor of business.
0:24:15 So I would just go in the elevator.
0:24:17 I’d sneak in because I didn’t have a badge.
0:24:17 Yeah.
0:24:19 And then I’d push one and I’d get up and I’d schmooze her.
0:24:23 Then I’d go back and then I’d push two and I’d go up like a 50 floor building.
0:24:27 But again, it’s like our business idea was terrible, objectively.
0:24:29 It was clearly a terrible idea.
0:24:33 But you know, that type of selling was actually like pretty interesting and then made a bunch
0:24:35 of mistakes and then the story was kind of good.
0:24:38 And it led, you know, the next guy who met me was this like guy who just sold his company
0:24:39 for $500 million.
0:24:44 And he found our story so amusing that he was like, I just want you guys to come do something
0:24:44 with me.
0:24:50 And I think if we had not done something interesting or amusing that made him literally like laugh,
0:24:52 I don’t think he would have wanted to take a bet on us.
0:24:55 Like he kind of just saw like, okay, these guys are hustlers.
0:24:59 They’re kind of stupid, but like, you know, maybe pointed in the right direction.
0:25:02 They’ll do something or at least they’ll bring some good energy to where, you know, they’ll
0:25:03 make me feel young and alive again.
0:25:06 I don’t know what his reason was, but it led to the next opportunity in the next.
0:25:07 Isn’t it funny though?
0:25:09 So people always say like, you know, how’d you make it?
0:25:14 I’m like, well, I started carrying golf bags at the local country club when I was eight years
0:25:14 old.
0:25:16 I would carry one bag when I was eight years old.
0:25:21 By the time I was nine years old, I would carry two and I would walk in your line and I
0:25:22 would talk while you were putting.
0:25:25 I was like a total knucklehead, like a total, but they like kind of liked me.
0:25:27 They were like, Hey, I like this kid.
0:25:32 He rides his bike here for like an hour to come carry two golf bags at the bell reeve country
0:25:32 club.
0:25:35 There’s all these rich guys, the bell reeve country club that I got to go.
0:25:36 Wow.
0:25:39 You guys are members of this like super nice country club in St. Louis, Missouri.
0:25:44 And then I would get 20 bucks a bag and they would buy me a hot dog at the turn.
0:25:45 And I’m like, okay, cool, man.
0:25:46 I did that eight to nine.
0:25:47 Yeah.
0:25:47 I’m living large.
0:25:49 Dude, if you give me 20 bucks on a hot dog today, I’m happy.
0:25:51 Exactly.
0:25:57 And so like, when I think about the waterfall of all my gigs or the things that I did, then
0:26:01 I went to go, I was a sandwich artist at Subway and they wouldn’t let you work at Subway
0:26:02 until you were like 18.
0:26:06 But like, I got this guy, Jim Condom that was the manager.
0:26:09 I’m like, look, man, um, I just, please, I promise you, I’m really mature.
0:26:10 I’ve had this job.
0:26:11 I’ve been working for a while.
0:26:15 So by the time I was 15 years old, I’d ride my bike to Subway.
0:26:16 I was a sandwich artist.
0:26:18 And so I, I like, I’d make the best.
0:26:23 I’d carve the boat back in the day where they carve the boat and the bread just perfectly in
0:26:23 there.
0:26:24 People wait in line.
0:26:25 They’d be like, nope, waiting for the kid.
0:26:27 The kid gets more black olives.
0:26:30 He gives you more, more, more, uh, you know, pickles.
0:26:33 Like I would work there till two in the morning when I was like 15 years old.
0:26:36 And then I went to, um, this is another funny one.
0:26:37 I worked at Amoco.
0:26:39 I was, uh, I worked at a gas station.
0:26:40 I’d be the guy that would come out.
0:26:41 I’d check your tires.
0:26:43 I’d fill up your tank.
0:26:44 I’d check your oil.
0:26:45 I’d wash your windows.
0:26:50 And then when I really, when the, when all the, all the, uh, the grease monkey guys would
0:26:52 give me a nod, you know, these guys were amazing.
0:26:54 They were incredible mentors of mine.
0:26:58 They’d be like, okay, Hayes, you can do an alternator or you can do a headlight or you
0:27:02 can change the, you know, you can plug a few tires or take it off.
0:27:03 So I, I’d clean these guys tools.
0:27:04 They’d make fun of me.
0:27:07 They’d just be capping on me all day long and I’d get there.
0:27:11 And then if the tool had a little bit of grease on it, be like, nope, do it again, kids.
0:27:11 You know?
0:27:16 So we had this funny rapport and then they would leave the whole bays just trashed.
0:27:21 And Jason Walker and I would literally go in there and we would race how fast we could
0:27:22 clean the bays.
0:27:22 Right.
0:27:23 And so it’s so funny.
0:27:27 If you think about that as kids, Jason and I would clean the bays, we’d put the soap
0:27:27 down.
0:27:30 I’m like, dude, we can clean these bays in 15 minutes today.
0:27:33 Well, of course, naturally later in my life, I’m like, we got to work together.
0:27:35 We can read each other’s minds.
0:27:42 We work so efficiently together, but it started in a gas station in Missouri, you know, with
0:27:46 a bunch of guys that would just, we had the best rapport with this awesome group of
0:27:50 people at, at the Amoco on Olive and Fifi road, you know?
0:27:55 And so it just goes on from thing to thing, you know, whatever, working on a farm after
0:27:55 that.
0:28:01 But it gives you this ability to kind of have this humility and have these stepping stones
0:28:05 in your life where you meet people where they got, you go, okay, you know, this, this, these
0:28:06 are the things I need to do to be successful.
0:28:08 I learned so many lessons from these people.
0:28:10 Is this where you picked up your nickname thing?
0:28:12 Because you’re a, you’re a big nickname giver.
0:28:13 It’s something I kind of stole from you.
0:28:14 Oh, I like the nicknames.
0:28:18 I was like, Hayes, everyone he meets, I was like, he kind of has a nickname for him right
0:28:21 away and it builds this rapport right away.
0:28:21 Yeah.
0:28:23 Because look, I live in Silicon Valley.
0:28:25 There’s a lot of rich and successful people there.
0:28:31 There’s not a lot of people who have the like fun to hang charm that you have.
0:28:34 And so I’m like, oh, I want to steal a little bit from your game on that.
0:28:36 You know, you, it’s almost a big country.
0:28:38 Oh, what’s going on here?
0:28:41 So like, you know, Ben is in my phone now as Ben Big Dog Levy, right?
0:28:43 It’s like, I’m going to, I’m just giving nicknames out now.
0:28:45 That’s going to be my thing.
0:28:47 Is that something you intentionally picked up from somebody?
0:28:48 I’ll tell you where I picked it up.
0:28:50 This guy is Zeke Seeger that I used to work for.
0:28:50 Okay.
0:28:54 So Zeke Seeger, he was like the black sheep of the Seeger family.
0:28:57 And the Seeger family owned all the car dealerships in Missouri.
0:28:58 So what does Zeke do?
0:28:59 Zeke loved to gamble.
0:29:03 He loved to drink beer and he loved to play golf.
0:29:10 So he started, he had a family farm and he started a driver rage on the family farm.
0:29:15 And I was the Johnny come cut the grass, make sure that, that all the T lines were set right.
0:29:18 But Zeke had these nicknames for everybody that worked for him.
0:29:22 And I’ll tell you, he taught me one of the greatest lessons of my life.
0:29:26 And, and this, this one is, is I pass this one on to my kids.
0:29:29 So I did everything as fast as I possibly could.
0:29:31 Cause I learned at the gas station, just do it fast.
0:29:35 Get an attaboy from your boss, you know, get the gold star going to the next day.
0:29:39 And so Zeke brings me in and he had all these nicknames for everybody.
0:29:43 And so I’m, this is my second summer there.
0:29:44 And he said, you’re fired.
0:29:46 And I’m like, what Zeke?
0:29:48 Like what’s going on?
0:29:51 And he’d have his little, he called him his little girls, his little girls.
0:29:55 So he had this little Budweiser in his hand and he said, yeah, you’re fired.
0:29:56 You’re out of here.
0:29:57 And I said, what?
0:30:02 And he goes, every day you come out here and you run around and you get all these little
0:30:04 things, you know, done real quick.
0:30:07 You go out there and you weed eat the railroad tracks.
0:30:11 And then you, you, you, you pull the weeds out of the sand traps and you set the T lines
0:30:13 and you do it faster than everybody else.
0:30:15 And I said, oh, thanks, Zeke.
0:30:16 I really appreciate it.
0:30:20 He goes, you know, the problem is you come in here at 11 o’clock every morning after you
0:30:21 get everything done.
0:30:24 And you asked me what you should do for the rest of the day.
0:30:25 Hey, Zeke, I got all that done.
0:30:26 What do you want me to do?
0:30:28 You do it every single day and you’ve done it for a year straight.
0:30:30 He goes, you’re fired.
0:30:32 And I said, well, Zeke, I’m not leaving.
0:30:35 I mean, come on, man, you can’t fire me for something like this.
0:30:40 And he goes, no, you’re absolutely fired until I don’t want to see you for the rest of the
0:30:41 summer.
0:30:43 You don’t come in here and don’t ask me what to do again.
0:30:45 And I’m like, okay.
0:30:46 So I was angry.
0:30:49 I went out there and I picked those balls.
0:30:51 And then now at 11 o’clock every morning, I’d look around.
0:30:55 I’m like, okay, I probably need to go take the hay and move the hay up into the barn.
0:30:58 I probably need to go out there and clean the barbecue pit.
0:31:01 So I didn’t talk to him for the rest of the summer.
0:31:03 I was like, I’m not going to go in there one time.
0:31:05 I’m not going to get in there, you know, whatever it may be.
0:31:08 So he brings me at the end of the summer, your last day, right?
0:31:09 You’re going back to school.
0:31:11 I said, yeah, this is my last day.
0:31:13 And he goes, you coming back next summer?
0:31:15 And I said, yeah, I’d love to come back next summer.
0:31:16 And he said, you’re the boss.
0:31:18 And he gave me this big ring of keys.
0:31:20 And he goes, here you go.
0:31:21 And I said, what?
0:31:22 And he goes, you’re the boss.
0:31:24 I said, all these guys are 10 years older than me.
0:31:26 And he goes, you’re the boss of all of them now.
0:31:27 Because you know why?
0:31:29 You didn’t come in here and ask me what to do.
0:31:30 You knew exactly what to do.
0:31:33 And that stuck with me for the rest of my life.
0:31:38 When I worked at Oracle and Larry Ellison, I never went into Dean Pansyka’s office once
0:31:39 and asked him what to do.
0:31:42 I never went into Hilary Koppelow’s office once and asked him what to do.
0:31:45 I thought, okay, what would they want me to do as the boss?
0:31:47 And when you do that, you become the boss.
0:31:49 Yeah, you think like the boss, you become the boss.
0:31:50 You become the boss.
0:31:53 And so it’s the person that goes in there looking for the attaboy, looking for the pat
0:31:57 on the back, looking for the affirmation or, hey, what’s the next thing you want me to do?
0:31:58 They’re never the boss.
0:31:59 Right.
0:31:59 It’s BYO.
0:32:05 You bring your own clarity versus being a sort of direction taker at all times.
0:32:05 Yeah.
0:32:06 Yeah.
0:32:07 A lot of people get that wrong.
0:32:07 Yeah.
0:32:08 Yeah.
0:32:13 So if we go back into the story for a second, so you leave, you’re doing the radio ads,
0:32:16 you said the business was working, you start to build this business.
0:32:23 Now, a mortgage business sounds like a good business to be in, but there’s always bumps
0:32:26 and bruises in any kind of rollercoaster here.
0:32:28 So what happens with that business?
0:32:31 Well, it happens, you know, the financial crisis.
0:32:36 So, you know, on Douglas Boulevard, where our office was, I think 95% of mortgage companies
0:32:37 went out of business.
0:32:40 You know, a lot of people didn’t have their hedge position right.
0:32:43 They blew themselves up there because interest rates had increased.
0:32:47 Then also the people that did subprime mortgages were done.
0:32:48 We were lucky.
0:32:49 We didn’t do a lot of subprime mortgages.
0:32:52 We didn’t do any reverse amortization mortgages.
0:32:53 So I wanted to ask you about this.
0:32:56 So you’re in the eye of the storm, right?
0:32:56 Yeah.
0:33:00 Like the 08 crisis, which is the subprime mortgage crisis.
0:33:01 You’re in the mortgage business.
0:33:02 I’m in it.
0:33:02 Yeah.
0:33:03 You know, I’ve watched the big short.
0:33:05 That’s my level of knowledge about this.
0:33:09 I’m curious, like, A, what happened from your episode?
0:33:11 What’s your kind of like layman’s explanation of what actually went wrong?
0:33:16 And then B, how did you not fall into the same trap that many others did?
0:33:20 It seems like, you know, there was an incentive to give these subprime mortgages out.
0:33:21 You’re going to make more money.
0:33:26 Every mortgage sales guy in the country at that time wanted to sell reverse amortization
0:33:28 mortgages and wanted to sell subprime mortgages.
0:33:30 Stated loans was the big thing, right?
0:33:34 Let’s just have someone make up their income and then we’ll give them any loan we can.
0:33:35 That’s what a stated loan.
0:33:37 So, yeah, I’m good for it.
0:33:38 Yeah, yeah, I’m good for it.
0:33:40 No, you would basically say, hey, Sean, what’s your income?
0:33:42 And you would say, oh, I make $200,000 a year.
0:33:42 Okay, great.
0:33:44 $200,000 a year to qualify for this loan.
0:33:47 So what happened at the end of the day, there was a bunch of loans that people received that
0:33:49 they shouldn’t have received, okay?
0:33:51 The underwriting criteria wasn’t tight enough.
0:33:52 That’s what happened.
0:33:53 That’s why the crisis happened.
0:33:55 The default rate skyrocketed.
0:33:57 People walked away from their homes.
0:33:58 They’re like, hey, I don’t know.
0:34:01 I have no equity in this house at all.
0:34:02 Who cares?
0:34:03 I’ll just walk away.
0:34:07 I’ll take the light fixtures out of here and whatever else I can take.
0:34:09 They also weren’t putting a lot down then, basically?
0:34:11 They were putting nothing down.
0:34:13 So nothing down, stated income.
0:34:13 Yeah.
0:34:16 And so that felt really, really wrong to me.
0:34:18 Like morally, I was like, I have a saying.
0:34:20 The devil doesn’t tempt you with spinach.
0:34:20 Okay?
0:34:21 All right?
0:34:25 And so you’re like, you know, it’s like, oh, you know, like, it’s, and then the guy,
0:34:28 the sales guys would come in, you know, the mortgage guys.
0:34:31 Hey, man, you know, if people want red cars, we got to sell red cars.
0:34:35 If people want hamburgers, we got to sell them hamburgers, Hayes.
0:34:37 I heard every analogy under the sun.
0:34:38 I’m like, we’re not selling hamburgers.
0:34:40 We’re not selling red cars.
0:34:43 I don’t know how this movie ends, but those people don’t deserve those loans.
0:34:47 And so we’re going to walk away from the volume and, and we did, we walked away from
0:34:49 a tremendous amount of volume.
0:34:53 We walked away from a tremendous amount of people that wanted to come work for us, take
0:34:58 advantage of our cheesy radio commercials and the brand that we had created for ourselves
0:34:59 and sell those loans.
0:35:00 Cause what do they care?
0:35:04 They’ll just sell those loans until that company blows up and they’ll go on to the next
0:35:04 company.
0:35:08 And so I give Jason and Matt a ton of credit here.
0:35:13 Jason has a brilliant mind for underwriting criteria and he has huge ethics and he
0:35:15 basically said, man, it’s not right.
0:35:16 It doesn’t smell right.
0:35:17 We shouldn’t do it.
0:35:20 And Jason and Matt were experts in the industry.
0:35:21 And I said, then great, we’re not doing it.
0:35:26 And so it was, it was a hard decision at the time because you’re right.
0:35:27 Everybody else was doing it.
0:35:29 It was the only reason we survived.
0:35:32 There were so many buybacks from other companies.
0:35:33 They just said, Hey, we can’t buy them back.
0:35:34 We’re out.
0:35:39 And we, we had done some stated loans and we had to buy some of those back, but it wasn’t
0:35:43 at all near the magnitude if we would have done subprime loans and we would have
0:35:44 done those kinds of things.
0:35:48 You sort of look wrong until you look right in that situation.
0:35:48 Right.
0:35:53 Meaning like you’re just growing a little bit slower than other people, or you’re leaving
0:35:57 money on the table until finally the crash happens.
0:35:59 And then, then you’re validated for that strategy.
0:36:04 But it’s like, most people are not willing to be, to look wrong or be wrong, you know,
0:36:08 for 364 days, you know, for the one that was right.
0:36:11 You know, a lot of times it’s more than 364 days.
0:36:12 Sometimes it’s three years.
0:36:16 You know, I just went through it in the residential solar financing business.
0:36:21 You know, there’s been about five companies that went bankrupt recently in that space.
0:36:28 And look, we raised pricing, I think 16 times because the Fed had raised rates so much in
0:36:29 a short period of time.
0:36:33 And it was hard because we lost a lot of market share for a period of time.
0:36:37 People said, hey, you know, if you guys are going to have to increase your pricing, but
0:36:38 the bond math didn’t work.
0:36:40 The unit economics didn’t work.
0:36:45 And I was like, look, if the unit economics don’t work at some point, the music stops and
0:36:45 you die.
0:36:46 You blow yourself up.
0:36:51 And so, you know, the reason that we’re a healthy company and we survived was for two
0:36:51 reasons.
0:36:52 One, the diversification.
0:36:57 And two was because of the discipline and the devil doesn’t tempt you with spinach.
0:37:02 And the second piece to the mortgage piece, just to go back to it, is what happens after
0:37:05 08 is, look, I had to lay off 400 people.
0:37:09 So we had a couple, I would say 1,500 employees or something along those lines.
0:37:11 And I was so depressed, man.
0:37:16 I would like literally throw up in my driveway before I could go see my family every night.
0:37:18 I was so, so depressed.
0:37:21 They say you’re never real CEO until you go through a near-death experience.
0:37:22 And I went through mine there.
0:37:26 I would go to this rock and like literally pray, just get me through this.
0:37:28 And I promise you, I’ll do good things for the world.
0:37:31 And so what I did was diversified.
0:37:36 I launched an insurance company next to the mortgage company that allows us to save people money
0:37:37 on their homeowners and auto insurance.
0:37:42 I then had the idea to get into the energy business and save people money on their electrical
0:37:43 bill.
0:37:45 And the way I did that was through the residential solar business.
0:37:49 So that diversification is a good thing at times.
0:37:54 It forces you to kind of diversify the risk within your company, but you’ve got to have
0:38:00 the unit economic discipline on the front end and have a good sense of ethics and the right
0:38:04 thing to do when other competitors may or may not be willing to do that.
0:38:07 So where does that strategy come from?
0:38:11 At that point, where do the, what are the ideas to do insurance energy?
0:38:14 Cause you’re in the middle of a, you’re weathering a storm.
0:38:15 You’re laying off people.
0:38:18 When I was little, I accidentally almost burned down my house.
0:38:22 And, you know, for like, you know, it’s like everyone comes, everyone in the neighborhood’s
0:38:26 looking at you and it’s like, he tried to bake a cookie and almost burned down the house.
0:38:29 Like, you know, like the mortgage industry almost burned down the house of America.
0:38:30 Totally.
0:38:31 So you’re in a tough spot.
0:38:33 Where do these ideas come from at that stage?
0:38:36 Man, it’s when your soul’s getting crushed is when you get the download.
0:38:39 At least that, that, that’s, was it for me.
0:38:43 When I worked at Oracle, I would run to the Golden Gate Bridge most mornings.
0:38:50 And I sat in a meeting there where, with HP, we had just done a really big deal with HP.
0:38:55 And what I realized at the time was, you know, yeah, they, they maybe needed this software as
0:38:56 a CRM solution.
0:39:02 It was a new CRM solution for Oracle, but likely it was a horse trading deal that I was a part
0:39:08 of, for some reciprocity between Oracle buying, you know, a lot of HP servers and laptop computers
0:39:09 and printers.
0:39:14 And then in return, HP saying, hey, you know, we’re going to take a risk here and buy, buy
0:39:16 a CRM solution from Oracle.
0:39:21 And I just felt a little bit like, man, is this what I’m going to do with my life?
0:39:22 I’m going to be in these rooms.
0:39:25 I’m going to work with legal groups for like a half a year to get these deals done.
0:39:29 And then it’s, it’s about, it’s a trade, you know, in some way, shape or form at the end
0:39:29 of the day.
0:39:31 And so I wanted more meaning in my life.
0:39:33 I wanted to, and so I thought about, hey, what, what’s important to me?
0:39:34 Okay.
0:39:35 My mom and I never owned a home.
0:39:37 We rented our entire lives.
0:39:40 I watched her pay 400 bucks a month in rent our whole lives.
0:39:41 We were always strapped.
0:39:44 I always watched my mom work three jobs.
0:39:47 I was always like, mom, can’t you get educated and buy a home?
0:39:51 And I was just talking to a good friend of mine just a few days ago.
0:39:53 He’s from the inner city in St. Louis.
0:40:00 And he said, hey, as you realize our people when the way we grew up, we’ll never buy a home
0:40:02 unless someone really sits down and educates them.
0:40:07 And that was my dream was, hey, could I create a mortgage company that could educate people
0:40:08 online?
0:40:12 They could educate people in a non-threatening way where they could learn about the ability
0:40:15 to own a home instead of renting their whole life.
0:40:17 The American dream of owning this home.
0:40:17 Right.
0:40:19 And so I found meaning in that.
0:40:22 And I found another group of people that found meaning in that.
0:40:26 Of course, I hired a bunch of processors and underwriters that were single moms because I
0:40:27 was raised by a single mom.
0:40:30 Of course, I asked my mom to move from Chicago at the time.
0:40:35 She was taking care of her mother out to Sacramento to come work with me and be along my side.
0:40:40 And she just retired this year, but she was with me for whatever it was, 15 solid years or
0:40:40 more.
0:40:44 And then that led me to think about, well, wait a minute.
0:40:48 What if I could educate people on their homeowners insurance and auto insurance and how to protect
0:40:49 these assets?
0:40:57 And then I found a lot of, you know, I candidly, I had a vision for what could I do that really
0:41:01 solves a big problem around this that also is tied to a big bill inside of the home.
0:41:07 And that was the vision for, it’s the electric bill and it’s clean energy and I can electrify
0:41:08 the home.
0:41:11 And that is an amazing opportunity.
0:41:17 And so I would advertise with the cheesy ad about, hey, I can save you money on your biggest
0:41:17 bills.
0:41:21 And people would call in and we would save them money on their mortgage payment, their homeowners
0:41:25 and auto insurance and their electric bill that create diversification.
0:41:30 But it also allowed me to see what three separate entities underneath one holding company could
0:41:32 do to make an impact in homeowners lives.
0:41:33 Right.
0:41:35 I want to read you a quote that I really liked.
0:41:41 You said, the difference between rejection results is just how long you stick with it.
0:41:44 And this is like, you know, on one hand, it’s like, okay, this is kind of just like fortune
0:41:47 cookie advice, but for some reason it hit for me.
0:41:49 What’s, I guess, where’d you get that?
0:41:51 And I guess like, what’s the kind of like, unpack that.
0:41:52 What’s the story there?
0:41:57 Look, I think a lot of people quit when it gets hard and sometimes you don’t even know
0:41:57 you’re quitting.
0:42:01 You just come up with a reason why you think you need to quit.
0:42:02 It’s like, I had no choice.
0:42:03 I just had to quit.
0:42:03 Right.
0:42:07 You become master salesman to yourself to point you in the other direction.
0:42:07 Yeah.
0:42:07 Yeah.
0:42:10 You know, and you want to run it by all your friends that you know, they’re going to tell
0:42:10 you to quit.
0:42:11 You know how you do that.
0:42:11 You start approaching those people.
0:42:13 I know the five guys that’ll tell me I should quit.
0:42:16 So I’m going to go call those five guys and then they’ll tell me it’s okay to quit.
0:42:19 And then I’m no, I’m like, this is, I’m blessed for quitting.
0:42:25 And so what happens to a lot of companies is all companies, they go through really challenging,
0:42:26 difficult times.
0:42:27 And it’s inevitable.
0:42:31 If you run these companies, these companies are just riddled with problems, right?
0:42:32 That’s what they are.
0:42:34 And you’re always constantly solving the next problem.
0:42:37 And in some way, shape or form, they’re all cyclical.
0:42:38 They always face some massive headwind.
0:42:40 It could be a policy headwind.
0:42:43 It could be a financial headwind because of interest rates.
0:42:47 It could be a headwind because of terrorists, whatever it is, you’re going to face one.
0:42:53 And so the key in those moments when you’re getting your soul crushed is to find a way to
0:42:57 get through it, to find a way to not quit and make sure the team stays together and not quit
0:42:59 because the valley is the value.
0:43:06 And no one realizes that when all your competition dies and they’re going out of business one after
0:43:10 another because of maybe a bad decision, or maybe they lost the team because people are
0:43:15 weren’t inspired anymore, or maybe it just got too hard and people were fed up with it.
0:43:18 That is the moment where your company is actually creating value.
0:43:20 Now, it wouldn’t show that in your stock price.
0:43:26 It wouldn’t show that in your board meeting necessarily, but that’s the difference.
0:43:31 I just went through a really crazy, difficult cycle in residential solar over the course of
0:43:33 the last really two and a half to three years.
0:43:36 Usually these cycles only last about a year.
0:43:37 This one was two and a half to three years.
0:43:42 Now we’ve diversified significantly and made a bunch of investments and, and innovated in
0:43:51 really big ways, but the valley is the value and 99% of people quit in the, in the moment.
0:43:54 They’re like, Oh, you know, maybe I should just join the board or maybe I should just kind
0:43:57 of do something else because again, winners have options.
0:44:01 You know, if you got a little money in the bank, you’re like, ah, you know what, man, I’m
0:44:02 just going to go do something else with my life.
0:44:06 Like this is too much of an opportunity cost for me to sit here and slug it out.
0:44:10 But as you grind it out during those moments, there’s two things that happen.
0:44:15 One is you gain tremendous market share and respect from your board.
0:44:15 Okay.
0:44:17 In those kinds of moments.
0:44:24 And the second thing that happens is you see yourself as a different person in the face of
0:44:29 adversity and the muscle that you created and what you had to learn to get through that
0:44:32 moment, which makes you a stronger executive for the next wave of pain.
0:44:35 Hey, let’s take a quick break.
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0:45:00 All right.
0:45:01 Back to the show.
0:45:07 When you were at SolarCity, I mean, SolarCity is kind of a controversial company.
0:45:11 Like I remember from the outside, it was like this incredible company, then Tesla was going
0:45:12 to acquire it.
0:45:15 And then it was like, but wait, is it in good financial health?
0:45:16 Is it not in good financial health?
0:45:19 There’s a lot of like, I guess, narrative around it.
0:45:24 Did you learn anything about kind of like the internal storytelling that’s required to not
0:45:27 only get yourself to believe, but the whole team to believe when there’s a lot of noise
0:45:28 on the outside?
0:45:29 Yeah, absolutely.
0:45:31 Don’t, don’t listen to the noise.
0:45:35 Like I have thin skin, which is why I don’t do Twitter, which is why I don’t do podcasts
0:45:40 when like, I don’t want to read all the comments of people that say, oh gosh, that guy, this,
0:45:42 I don’t know why, like I care.
0:45:43 Like some people don’t care.
0:45:44 I’m like, I actually care.
0:45:44 Everybody cares.
0:45:45 Some people say they don’t care.
0:45:46 But I care.
0:45:47 I really care.
0:45:51 And, and, um, and so I’m not, I’m not good at the public thing.
0:45:55 I’m not good at putting myself out there, you know, which is why I don’t do any of the
0:45:57 self-promotion or anything along those lines.
0:46:00 Cause I’m not man enough to take the blows that come my way.
0:46:03 I’m embarrassed at saying that, but that’s, that’s really the truth of it.
0:46:04 If I make myself vulnerable.
0:46:07 And so for me is I don’t read it.
0:46:08 I don’t read the articles.
0:46:14 I don’t, I don’t look at X all the time and, and all the comments and things along those lines.
0:46:15 I keep my head down.
0:46:20 I stay focused on, on, on, on, and try to feed my mind with the right things.
0:46:21 That’s why I don’t watch scary movies.
0:46:25 You know, I, I, I really don’t like, if I watch a scary movie, it’s like stuck in my
0:46:25 head for a month.
0:46:28 I’m like, I’m not man enough to watch scary movies.
0:46:30 I just want to watch happy things.
0:46:31 Like I want to watch a comedy.
0:46:35 I want to, you know, I want to watch something inspirational, some great documentary.
0:46:38 So I’m just really careful about, about what narrative.
0:46:38 Yeah.
0:46:40 And it also comes down to who I’m going to hang out with.
0:46:41 Like, it’s weird, man.
0:46:47 Like, you know, when I met my dad, I, I like, there’s a part of me, I would see things
0:46:48 in my father.
0:46:49 Okay.
0:46:53 And so it’s like, and I didn’t like it after I hung out with them.
0:46:55 I was like, Ooh, wow, man.
0:46:57 Like I, I do some of those things too.
0:46:58 Like that, is that DNA based?
0:47:01 Is that like, you start to question who you are as an individual.
0:47:06 And so you got to be really careful with the kind of people you spend your time with and
0:47:09 what dialogue that you’re having with them, because proximity is a powerful thing, man.
0:47:10 It cuts both ways.
0:47:14 What was it like meeting you on the first time?
0:47:19 Would you have suspected then when you met him that like kind of the, the rise basically?
0:47:22 I mean, now he’s, I don’t know, the wealthiest guy in the world.
0:47:24 He’s created these world-changing companies.
0:47:28 I’m just curious, what was your kind of impression at that stage?
0:47:32 I thought I had a great work ethic when I was working with Larry Ellison or had my own company.
0:47:40 No company has the work ethic and the commitment and the sacrifice factor than, than an Elon company.
0:47:44 You know, when you go to work for those companies, my son works at SpaceX right now.
0:47:47 He’s doing his second year internship down at SpaceX.
0:47:53 Out of all the companies in the world that I would hope my son could go work for, he’s, you know, 19 years old.
0:47:56 I’m like, go, go work for Elon, man.
0:47:58 Go, go see what it’s like at SpaceX.
0:48:05 Go down in Boca Chica, go light some rockets off with Mark Gercosa, some of the greatest engineers in the history of the world.
0:48:12 See what it’s like to have that level of work ethic, that give a shit factor, you know?
0:48:16 I mean, like when you’re in those kinds of environments, it’s like, look, you’re playing with live ammunition, man.
0:48:19 You got to, you got to, you got to play full out and you’re in the foxhole.
0:48:20 It is time to go to war.
0:48:22 We’re the warriors of light.
0:48:23 You go hard to go home.
0:48:24 That’s just the way that it is.
0:48:26 Because think about it.
0:48:30 We’re the most highly shorted stock in the history of the world between Tesla and solar city.
0:48:31 Everyone said we were the next Enron.
0:48:32 We were done.
0:48:35 The articles, you know, were crazy.
0:48:38 You think they were, you know, now there are a balance between the two.
0:48:41 At that time, we were all the biggest morons in the world, right?
0:48:44 Because we were the, you know, the clean energy guys, the sustainability guys.
0:48:47 There’s no way we could ever create a company of any value.
0:48:50 Well, that narrative has changed.
0:49:15 But, you know, just to be just very direct, it was very, very obvious to me that Elon was the ultimate alpha and he had a leadership skill and a magnetic energy to get human beings to make the necessary sacrifices to build the most important, disruptive, impactful technologies in the history of the world.
0:49:17 Like when I just, I worked so hard.
0:49:19 I never stopped working.
0:49:21 For nine years of my life, I’m not kidding you.
0:49:23 I just wanted him to be happy.
0:49:27 You know, I wanted, and he was always so kind to me and he’s always so grateful to me.
0:49:30 And, you know, and I would always get a kind nod in the boardroom.
0:49:33 But like, I just wanted Lyndon to be happy.
0:49:34 I wanted Pete to be happy.
0:49:37 I wanted, you know, E to be happy.
0:49:55 And there is a sacrifice that I think everyone, everyone makes when you work at those companies, a sense of pride and commitment and sacrifice that’s necessary based on being driven by growth and being around peers and alphas that are going to push themselves to be the best they can be.
0:49:59 And driven by contribution and the difference that you can make in the world.
0:50:04 Yeah, I have this phrase that you don’t know what level 10 looks like.
0:50:12 So basically, I have this theory, which is really this podcast actually helps me do this, which is in any area of my life, I think at a certain time.
0:50:13 Oh, okay.
0:50:14 I know what the spectrum is.
0:50:17 I know one is the bottom, but I know what a 10 is.
0:50:20 And, you know, sometimes I fool myself into thinking, I’m a 10 at this thing.
0:50:23 And then you go meet somebody who totally breaks your frame.
0:50:30 And you’re like, oh, that’s what like, that’s what I call 11, level 11.
0:50:33 It’s like, oh, I didn’t even realize the knob actually goes further.
0:50:35 Like you could just crank this baby up.
0:50:41 So whether it’s like work ethic or even storytelling ability, or it’s, you know, just how sharp they are.
0:50:44 Because, you know, work ethic is a part of it.
0:50:46 But like, you know, one of my companies got bought by Twitch.
0:50:48 And I got to work with this guy, Emmett.
0:50:49 Emmett’s the founder of Twitch.
0:50:50 Yeah.
0:50:52 And people are like, oh, what’s Emmett like?
0:50:53 And I’m like, I could tell you a lot of things.
0:50:58 But, you know, one of the things that was very obvious to me, I was like, oh, this guy’s oven burns a little hotter.
0:51:01 Like this guy’s just genuinely much smarter than me.
0:51:02 Yeah.
0:51:09 And so it’s not like, and I didn’t, I hadn’t really encountered people at that level of like incisiveness, of sharpness.
0:51:10 It’s inspiring.
0:51:11 You know, they do Amazon.
0:51:15 So you write a six page memo and you come in and the first 10 minutes is a silent read.
0:51:18 So I’m reading this thing within like three minutes.
0:51:19 He’s done with the paper.
0:51:23 He’s highlighted the one, he’s found the needle in the haystack.
0:51:25 Like the one thing that actually matters worth talking about.
0:51:27 And he’s waiting for the rest of us to catch up.
0:51:30 And it’s like, okay, so, so I like, I love seeing level 11.
0:51:34 In fact, this is why when we came out here, we did your morning routine with you.
0:51:34 Yeah.
0:51:39 Cause you’re kind of like a level 11 of like energy, like you’re energy rich.
0:51:42 I don’t even know how old you are, but you’re, you’re way more energy than me.
0:51:43 I think I’m like 20 years younger than you.
0:51:44 You have 20 times more energy than me.
0:51:50 So I’m like, I thought I’m a pretty high energy guy and have like a certain vivaciousness for life.
0:51:52 But then you see, oh, that’s 11.
0:51:52 Okay, good.
0:51:54 Now I can recalibrate.
0:51:55 I’m actually at a seven.
0:51:55 Cool.
0:52:00 But now that I’ve seen it, that’s like a, a very important thing is literally just to see it.
0:52:03 And so, you know, I hope with this, you know, when I do this podcast, it’s like,
0:52:06 we’ve talked to so many people who’ve done whatever, 500, 600 episodes.
0:52:08 The goal is that you break some people’s frame.
0:52:09 It’s like, yeah.
0:52:11 And what is the commitment and sacrifice that’s necessary?
0:52:12 Like you think about it, right?
0:52:17 So they, they buy my company, the first one, Paramount Solar, rolled it into SolarCity.
0:52:20 I had this big, first big exit of my life.
0:52:21 What did I do the next day?
0:52:23 I packed up my stuff.
0:52:26 I moved into a studio apartment in San Francisco by myself.
0:52:27 Remember, I’m married.
0:52:28 I have a wife.
0:52:29 I have three kids.
0:52:31 I’m like, I will see you guys in a year.
0:52:33 I’m going down to Silicon Valley.
0:52:33 Don’t worry.
0:52:34 I’m going to do this.
0:52:35 I’ll buy us a house.
0:52:36 I’ll figure it all out.
0:52:38 Kids are in school, all those kinds of things.
0:52:44 I ate a burrito four nights a week at, you know, one in the morning in my little studio apartment
0:52:49 in, you know, South San Francisco before I went and built an organization.
0:52:52 We grew that organization from, you know, maybe at the time there was 1500 of us.
0:52:59 I think I brought 400 of the 1500 and we grew it to a 20,000 person organization that did
0:53:01 20,000 residential solar systems a month.
0:53:05 And, you know, it became the largest solar company in the history of the world.
0:53:11 But it’s like that intoxicating energy that you’re feeding off of when you sit around
0:53:15 Lyndon Rive and you see his spirit and you see his energy.
0:53:19 And it’s like literally all, every moment of every day, I don’t care if we were mountain
0:53:20 biking.
0:53:21 I don’t care if we were kite surfing.
0:53:25 I don’t care if we were on vacation in Cabo.
0:53:26 We were talking about work.
0:53:29 We were talking about different ways we can engineer things, different ways we could create
0:53:31 things and do, do things.
0:53:36 And it was amazing just to be around those kinds of people where you’re absorbing that
0:53:42 energy and that competitive spirit to do something that no one’s ever been able to do before,
0:53:45 especially when the rest of the world thinks you’re crazy and there’s no way it’s going to
0:53:45 work.
0:53:47 I’m going to make a guess.
0:53:48 You tell me if this is right.
0:53:52 It seems like maybe prior to that, because you said I found my tribe.
0:53:55 It’s like, for a while, it’s like you don’t really quite fit in.
0:53:56 You’re sort of an oddball.
0:54:00 And then you finally meet a group of people who are wired the way you’re wired, who think
0:54:01 the way you think, who talk the way you talk.
0:54:03 And it’s totally normal to be, you’re weird.
0:54:05 It’s got to be a good feeling, right?
0:54:07 Like, was that how it was for you?
0:54:07 Totally.
0:54:11 When I was in Missouri, I was a fish out of water, man.
0:54:12 And I was depressed.
0:54:17 Like, I was frustrated listening to the conversations around the kitchen table.
0:54:20 I was frustrating listening to conversations on the field.
0:54:31 There was this level of your skepticism, self-doubt, highly medicated mindsets that lacked
0:54:31 ambitious.
0:54:33 And they were like, man, you’re just too excited about life.
0:54:34 Chill out.
0:54:35 Have a cigarette and relax, okay?
0:54:37 You know, life isn’t that great, buddy.
0:54:40 You know, and I just, I knew I needed to leave.
0:54:41 I knew I needed to pack my car up.
0:54:45 And I would have gone further than the Silicon Valley if the ocean wasn’t there.
0:54:47 I mean, honestly, I didn’t come home for a long time.
0:54:51 I stayed out West for a very, very long time.
0:54:55 And the reason was, I was all of a sudden around people that were believers.
0:55:00 I was around people that were excited about things, that weren’t getting caught up in what
0:55:04 they were going to have for dinner at night, or the two cups of coffee they needed in the
0:55:07 morning to get themselves going, or the smoke.
0:55:09 I was like, oh, man, this is incredible.
0:55:14 And then I was around those people at Oracle, obviously, you know, really, really bright people
0:55:15 operating on a high frequency.
0:55:18 They were hyper-motivated to do something with their lives.
0:55:24 Then you kind of graduate to, hey, I’m a founder in this world of the Silicon Valley with other
0:55:25 peers and founders.
0:55:32 And then I got plugged into that group of, whoa, these are the greatest founders in the world.
0:55:34 This is Sergey Brin.
0:55:35 This is Larry Page.
0:55:43 This is, you know, all the PayPal mafia, the Luke Nosex, the Ken Howery’s, you know, that
0:55:48 like all of a sudden you were around this peer group of friends that you spent time with and
0:55:49 you’re like, I can do anything.
0:55:50 Right.
0:55:51 I can do anything.
0:55:55 If I hang out with these guys and I feed off this energy every morning, I can do anything.
0:55:55 Right.
0:55:57 And honestly, I still feel like that way today.
0:56:00 This is why I love spending time with people like you.
0:56:02 I love the young energy.
0:56:05 I love to, you know, there’s a guy, his name’s Keller.
0:56:06 He’s the founder of Zipline.
0:56:09 I just went and visited him at his office a couple of weeks ago in San Francisco.
0:56:11 The drone delivery company?
0:56:11 The drone delivery.
0:56:13 I just, I want to be around Keller.
0:56:15 You know, he and I went on a heli trip together.
0:56:16 We went snowboarding together.
0:56:17 We became friends.
0:56:20 And he’s like, man, come visit my office.
0:56:21 I got a lot of things to do.
0:56:26 I wanted to go to Keller’s office and visit with Keller and just see his operation and
0:56:26 what he’s doing.
0:56:32 And so I’m really thoughtful about trying to find other people with great energy, great
0:56:37 ambition and drive that are trying to do impactful things in the world and bring them into my life.
0:56:44 So if through that door came like 27-year-old you, right, you get a second you because you’re
0:56:48 busy and you’re doing things and you’re already in what you’re in, you’re doing what you’re
0:56:49 doing, you have your company.
0:56:55 If 27-year-old you comes in and he’s got all the time in the world and he says, all
0:56:57 right, what’s the blueprint?
0:56:59 What’s the Hayes Barnard way of doing things?
0:57:01 Where should I go point my hair?
0:57:02 Where should I direct my energy?
0:57:05 What do you think you would, how would you explain your way of doing things?
0:57:09 And what ideas specifically, like what problems do you think are worth solving that you might
0:57:12 plant a seed in the head of 27-year-old you?
0:57:14 Man, that’s such a good question.
0:57:19 I would, with the gray hair that I have today, I’d probably drop in with them.
0:57:23 And I’d say, look, you’re going to be addicted to success, okay?
0:57:28 You’re going to be addicted to productivity or workaholic because you’re constantly trying
0:57:30 to prove to everybody that you’re enough, okay?
0:57:35 And so you’re going to take on a lot and it’s going to, at times it’s going to feel like
0:57:39 the weight of the world’s on your shoulders and you’re fighting for clean energy tax credits
0:57:44 and the big, beautiful bill in DC and meeting with senators and, you know, all the things.
0:57:53 But I need you to think about more than one level of wealth and one level of success, which is
0:57:55 financial success, right?
0:57:59 I need you to think about time success.
0:58:04 And I need you to think about mental health success.
0:58:06 And I need you to think about physical health success.
0:58:12 And I want you to think about friendship and community success, because I’m afraid that
0:58:20 you’re going to sacrifice those other four pillars of success for one, which is financial success.
0:58:26 And you got to realize, man, like when you grew up like I did and your mom’s got her head
0:58:30 in her hands and she’s crying about whether she can turn the air conditioning on and she’s
0:58:32 this amazing woman, all you want to do is help.
0:58:37 All you want to do is carry a couple of golf bags and put 40 bucks down on the kitchen table
0:58:39 to make sure that you guys can turn the air conditioning on.
0:58:43 All you want to do is someday hire your mom to come work for your company and say, hey,
0:58:43 we’re good.
0:58:44 It’s okay.
0:58:48 All you want to do is give your wife the life that your mother never had, give your son the
0:58:53 life that you never had, and you’re willing to make this crazy level of success.
0:58:57 So you have the financial means to make sure that they can go to that private school.
0:59:01 They can go to that, you know, university that they want to go to someday.
0:59:11 Well, that causes you to make this massive amount of success and give up maybe any time for yourself
0:59:17 or maybe your mental health suffers because you grind out and your adrenal glands are shot and
0:59:22 your doctors are like, hey, man, like we got to get you on meds so that you can get your
0:59:24 thyroid back in order because you’ve blown it out.
0:59:32 And so I’m at a stage now where I tell that 27-year-old guy, I’m like, look, man, the goal
0:59:34 is to also solve for happiness.
0:59:35 You don’t need to be a martyr.
0:59:36 Right.
0:59:36 Okay.
0:59:41 You don’t need to just like devote your life to all these other people and all these other
0:59:43 things and die miserable.
0:59:44 Okay.
0:59:48 At some point in time, I need you to make sure that you’re working out every morning.
0:59:49 You’re doing the breath work.
0:59:51 You’re, you’re, you’re doing the swim.
0:59:53 You’re doing the HIIT workout with your friends.
0:59:54 You’re laughing.
0:59:54 You’re playing.
1:00:01 But because as you create more success, it just, it gets really, really difficult.
1:00:04 The amount of people that start targeting you and coming after you.
1:00:04 Right.
1:00:07 Someone will watch this podcast and go, man, that’s a really nice couch.
1:00:10 He shouldn’t have that nice couch right there.
1:00:12 And at times I think, man, I probably shouldn’t have that nice couch.
1:00:15 Maybe, maybe I don’t deserve that nice couch.
1:00:15 Right.
1:00:15 You know?
1:00:21 And so it’s just this whole mindset that I think you have to think about where you’re
1:00:24 a really driven person on, hey, why are you doing it?
1:00:26 What are you doing?
1:00:28 But, but it’s the how component.
1:00:31 How do you start politely declining certain things?
1:00:35 How do you not have FOMO for all the things that you’d feel like you need to show up for?
1:00:39 Because I’ll feel like I need to be in two cities in the same day and have two different
1:00:40 meetings and do it in person.
1:00:43 And you just burn yourself out on the whole thing.
1:00:48 And so I need to learn, tell that kid, take time for yourself, create space, give yourself
1:00:51 an opportunity to kind of rev down every once in a while.
1:00:53 You’ll be better off in the long run.
1:00:55 You know, we need you around for the long haul.
1:00:55 Right.
1:01:01 Because you’ve, you’ve been around the, you know, whatever the dinner table of success
1:01:04 is, like the top of the top, you’ve been around a lot of those people.
1:01:08 You don’t need to name names, but I, I, I would imagine that a lot of those people are a bit
1:01:13 of a martyr in the sense of they’re not that happy or maybe loving their life in the way
1:01:17 that one would assume when you have a certain level of success.
1:01:20 Is that, has that been true from your, your experience?
1:01:28 Yeah, I would say most of the really successful people I know, there’s also a meaningful amount
1:01:31 of sadness in their life, you know, because of the sacrifice.
1:01:33 Maybe it’s a lack of connection with their kids.
1:01:38 Maybe it’s a lack of connection with an ex-wife or, you know, they kind of regret, you know,
1:01:42 the way they, they, they interacted at certain times because you’re revving in the conference
1:01:45 room and you’re battling all day long in these intense discussions.
1:01:49 It’s hard to come back home and then just be like a chill, normal guy, you know?
1:01:51 Like, you’re never a chill, normal guy.
1:01:53 You always have a nice, intense look on your face.
1:01:54 You don’t smile as much.
1:01:55 You’re like, man, is that guy okay?
1:01:57 Like, he needs to chill out a little bit.
1:02:04 And so, um, you know, for sure with those level of sacrifices, you, you, you gather more demons
1:02:09 in your life and, and, and, and it’s sad to say that, but money doesn’t make you happy.
1:02:11 Money doesn’t make you a better person.
1:02:12 It’s like really important.
1:02:17 The more things that you have, it’s actually more stressful, you know, like, and, and, and people
1:02:21 that maybe don’t have a lot of things would say, oh man, you know, how, how trite of
1:02:23 you to say something like that.
1:02:29 But the reality is the only thing that matters in the end of the day is, are the relationships
1:02:34 that you have, you know, and the love that you have those, those deep relationships that
1:02:35 you, that you carry on.
1:02:36 Who’s the exception?
1:02:41 I’m sure there’s somebody out there that’s, that’s found that, uh, you know, that these
1:02:41 balances, right?
1:02:43 I have a few North stars.
1:02:43 Yeah.
1:02:50 There’s like, man, I like Michael Dell’s like kind of the biggest North star I think I’ve
1:02:51 ever met in my life.
1:02:54 You know, his marriage, well, his marriage with Susan is, is amazing.
1:02:55 His wife is incredible.
1:03:00 She’s her own force of nature, what they do philanthropically, what they do for the world.
1:03:01 They’re very humble.
1:03:04 So you’re not going to be able to read about it or anything, but the impact they make in
1:03:09 the world, their children, you know, like their son, Zach Dell is like, I say to my son,
1:03:13 Luke, Hey, can you spend time with Zach and read the books that Zach read and talk to
1:03:17 Zach because he’s like a pretty amazing guy, but it’s the humility that he has, you know,
1:03:20 now he, he politely declines the things he’s taught me that.
1:03:26 And, and, and he creates space for himself to read and relax, but he didn’t go crazy.
1:03:33 Like a lot of people that create Michael Dell wealth, they go crazy and, um, and they, they
1:03:41 lose themselves in this intoxicating environment of winners have options and you can have anything
1:03:41 and do anything.
1:03:48 And, um, instead he’s the kind of guy that just becomes more humble, becomes more of a
1:03:52 giver, become more focused on, on the impact that he can make in the world through all the
1:03:52 work.
1:03:53 Now he still plays big.
1:03:54 Don’t get me wrong.
1:03:58 You know, he’s a bold leader and he takes big swings and big bets.
1:04:02 I mean, this isn’t a guy going through the motions and, uh, you know, and, but he’s somebody
1:04:10 that has this level of humble, um, humility about him that, that I, I respect and admire.
1:04:15 Tell me about the, uh, the blue ocean strategy insight you had, because we haven’t even talked
1:04:21 about your current company, the main, the main company yet, which is a kind of a juggernaut,
1:04:23 but talk about this insight you had.
1:04:26 Well, what do you do after, um, you know, we sold source city to Tesla.
1:04:28 Elon was great.
1:04:32 He wrote me a really nice letter, um, you know, to the, and he, and he, and, you know,
1:04:34 he kind of CC the Tesla board about it.
1:04:39 And, and so you’re kind of like, okay, you know, I, I exited there gracefully, I think
1:04:42 as much as you can, you know, I think people always want you to come back and do different
1:04:43 things.
1:04:49 And there’s at times I, I feel guilty that I, I didn’t go back and help at times, but where
1:04:50 do you go from there?
1:04:55 You’re like, okay, well, the insight that I had was we were by far the biggest solar company
1:04:55 in the country.
1:04:58 We had 40% market share in the entire United States.
1:05:03 And so I was recruiting a lot of people from our competitors and we were building, um, you
1:05:07 know, the, the largest manufacturing facility in the Western hemisphere for solar panels and
1:05:08 Tesla had built the giga factory.
1:05:14 And we were at this stage where I was like, man, I, I’m very passionate about sustainability.
1:05:17 I’m really passionate about the deployment of these solutions.
1:05:19 I had been burnt out on sales a little bit.
1:05:23 I was managing around a 10,000 person sales organization.
1:05:28 Um, and so it’s a lot of text messages from sales professionals that, um, that want to raise,
1:05:33 I’m, I’m joking, but you know, they want to talk about their comp, but it was, I was just
1:05:36 like, I was like, how do I do something that’s not really sales focused, but it’s technology
1:05:38 focused and I can deploy these solutions.
1:05:38 Okay.
1:05:44 And so I was coming off a big high and I thought about, I read a book called the blue ocean strategy.
1:05:48 And so we were in a little bit of a red ocean strategy, which was like, Hey, be your competition,
1:05:50 be your competition, just be your competition.
1:05:55 And I was in a, in a mindset where I was like, what if I can make my competition, our biggest
1:05:57 partner instead of our biggest competitor.
1:06:00 And so I looked at the premise of blue ocean strategy.
1:06:00 What does it, what does it mean?
1:06:01 Yeah.
1:06:06 It means if you can make sure everybody wins in an environment where literally even your
1:06:12 competitors win, that creates a flywheel effect that allows that organization to scale.
1:06:16 So red oceans is like testosterone and you run a solar company.
1:06:17 I run a solar company.
1:06:18 I’m better than you.
1:06:19 We’re going to sell more than you.
1:06:20 We’re going to win that customer.
1:06:23 Blue ocean strategy is like, Hey, what do you need?
1:06:26 Like, can I support you in some way, shape or form?
1:06:31 Red ocean would be like, okay, let’s imagine, um, you and I are both gold miners and we’re
1:06:32 out there, you know, panning for gold.
1:06:36 Blue ocean is like, I want to be the guy that sells the picks and shovels to everybody.
1:06:42 And so the mindset was, if I can enable the entire ecosystem from all the panel manufacturers
1:06:47 to all the battery manufacturers, to all the different, um, installers in the marketplace,
1:06:52 to all the sales professionals in the marketplace and empower them with a B2B marketplace and
1:06:57 platform that allows them to have access to capital, access to each other in an environment
1:07:02 where they can transact with consumers, where the consumer wins, they electrify the home,
1:07:04 they lower their carbon footprint, they save money.
1:07:10 The installers win where they can all install any panel or any, any battery solution in
1:07:10 the marketplace.
1:07:15 Um, and all the manufacturers of these products win because they get access to that marketplace
1:07:17 to the ability to deploy these assets.
1:07:19 Boy, that would be a cool business.
1:07:22 And that was the beginning of the idea of Good Leap.
1:07:27 It started with point of sale financing for solar, which quickly led to, wait a minute,
1:07:30 we should finance all electrified solutions in the home.
1:07:37 HVAC, uh, energy efficient windows, roofing, smart thermostats, um, you know, synthetic grass
1:07:42 turf, basically anything that allows us to kind of lower that carbon footprint in the home.
1:07:44 That would be, that’s a blue ocean strategy.
1:07:48 And so now the banks are winning and the financial institutions are winning because they’re getting
1:07:51 their eight to 10% return on the assets.
1:07:54 All the installers are winning because they have access to all these great products and
1:07:58 great sales professionals and all the sales professionals are winning because they have
1:08:00 access to the installers and the products.
1:08:05 So that, that was a blue ocean strategy and a marketplace business that allows us to grow
1:08:05 pretty quickly.
1:08:07 All right.
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1:09:08 Can you tell the dad story?
1:09:11 Cause you told this, I, you told us privately, so you don’t have to say it if you don’t want
1:09:14 to, but it was, I think I sent you a note after this.
1:09:14 I sent you a voice note.
1:09:16 I was like, man, that, that story really moved me.
1:09:20 I have my own, you know, dad issues, you know, that, that are going on.
1:09:25 But the way you told it, it’s funny, first of all, uh, but secondly, I think it’s really
1:09:25 powerful.
1:09:28 There’s a lot of people that I think have stuff like this.
1:09:28 I don’t know.
1:09:29 Personally, I would love to hear it.
1:09:30 I don’t know if you’re open to share it.
1:09:32 No, no, look, I’ll totally share it.
1:09:33 So it’s, it’s an interesting story.
1:09:38 So now remember my dad leaves me in, in, uh, in St. Louis, Missouri, my, my mom and he and
1:09:42 I moved from, um, Illinois to Missouri.
1:09:43 He worked for Merit.
1:09:48 So he was like a guy that would like, um, uh, take people on incentive trips, you know?
1:09:52 So he’s a, he was a drinker, you know, he had, he had a lot of problems with alcohol,
1:09:55 you know, he had, he had, you know, I don’t know.
1:09:57 I want to be respectful to my father and all those kinds of things.
1:10:01 But long story short, he left and, and they separate.
1:10:01 When you were at a young age.
1:10:02 Yeah.
1:10:03 I was about two years old.
1:10:03 Okay.
1:10:05 And, um, and I don’t know where he went.
1:10:09 We didn’t hear from him, but as a kid, you know, if you’re a decent athlete or you’re
1:10:13 doing things, you really hope that maybe dad calls and goes, Hey man, I saw that.
1:10:13 Wow.
1:10:17 I saw that article in the paper or, you know, and you always think about who your father
1:10:20 is and, and maybe what the situation was.
1:10:21 My mom was amazing.
1:10:23 She never said anything poor about my dad.
1:10:26 So I didn’t know much about my father and it wasn’t a focus, but I became a man of the
1:10:27 house at a pretty young age.
1:10:32 And, and that wasn’t awesome for my mom because I would run her boyfriends off and I was trying
1:10:34 to be a little alpha dog around the apartment and things like that.
1:10:36 You know, I regret that too.
1:10:44 Um, but basically I finally, when I’m at Oracle and I quote unquote made it, I was like, I want
1:10:47 to find my father and I sat next to this guy, Kelly cook.
1:10:50 He was a good old boy, man from, uh, Oklahoma.
1:10:52 Kelly cook played football at Oklahoma state.
1:10:58 So he was the fullback for, um, uh, Barry Sanders and Thurman Thomas.
1:10:59 Can you imagine?
1:11:00 Dude, this is Kelly cook, man.
1:11:01 This guy’s the man.
1:11:02 All right.
1:11:04 And so Kelly was my, I called him big papa.
1:11:05 I got my nickname.
1:11:06 He called me play up.
1:11:07 All right.
1:11:07 He’s called me play.
1:11:08 I call him big papa.
1:11:10 So I said, big papa, man.
1:11:12 Um, I want to, I want to find my dad.
1:11:15 He goes, you know, we, this internet thing, we can maybe find him on the internet.
1:11:17 And I was like, you think we could find him on the internet?
1:11:21 He goes, and he goes, yeah, man, let me, let me see if I can figure it out.
1:11:28 So not, I swear it wasn’t like a day before all of a sudden Kelly’s on the phone and he’s
1:11:29 waving me over.
1:11:30 He’s waving me over.
1:11:34 And, and, uh, and he’s like, I got your dad on the phone, man.
1:11:34 I got, I’m like, what?
1:11:35 You got my dad on the phone.
1:11:40 And so he’s talking to my dad, Jim, oh yeah, you’re Jim, you’re from Illinois, right?
1:11:40 Yeah.
1:11:40 Oh yeah, Jim.
1:11:41 That’s what I thought.
1:11:41 Yeah.
1:11:43 You, uh, so where are you working right now?
1:11:44 What’s going on?
1:11:50 So, so my father at the time, he’s talking to him about a suit, about a size of a suit, uh,
1:11:51 and the, and the length of the arms.
1:11:53 And I’m like, what is going on, man?
1:11:54 What is he having this conversation with this guy about?
1:11:56 So he hands up the phone.
1:11:57 He goes, Hey, you’re not going to believe it.
1:12:01 Now I was working at Redwood Shores now at Oracle’s HQ.
1:12:08 And he goes, your dad, you don’t come believe this, man, your father is in Palo Alto and
1:12:10 he works for Patrick James Clothing Shop.
1:12:12 He found him through tax records.
1:12:13 And I was like, really?
1:12:16 He sells clothing like across from Stanford right there.
1:12:19 Um, I mean, it’s maybe 15 minutes down the road.
1:12:19 Okay.
1:12:21 And I’m like, Kelly, come on, you gotta be kidding me.
1:12:21 He goes, no.
1:12:24 Well, that rocked me for about three months.
1:12:26 I’m like, my dad is 15 minutes away from me.
1:12:30 What are the odds both of us are here in, uh, you know, out in the Silicon Valley?
1:12:32 Well, I put my best suit on.
1:12:35 I went down there, got a big, deep breath.
1:12:38 And I was like, all right, man, I’m going to go, I’m gonna go meet my dad.
1:12:39 I’m going to go in there and make it happen.
1:12:41 So I’m kind of looking in the store.
1:12:42 I’m like, is that him?
1:12:43 Is that him?
1:12:44 Because I didn’t have any pictures or anything.
1:12:48 And I walked in, um, and I said, Hey, how you doing?
1:12:48 And they said, great.
1:12:51 Um, and I said, is Jim Barnard here?
1:12:54 And they said, no, Jim doesn’t work here on Wednesdays.
1:12:56 You know, it was like, what it was Tuesdays, Thursdays and Sundays or something.
1:12:57 I’m like, oh man.
1:12:58 Okay.
1:13:00 And I think subconsciously I wanted a reason to come back.
1:13:03 And so I was, they go, well, how can I help you?
1:13:07 And I was like, oh, um, uh, at the time I bought custom shirts.
1:13:09 Cause I have a 37 inch long arm.
1:13:10 Okay.
1:13:12 I said, can I get a couple of custom shirts?
1:13:12 They’re like, sure.
1:13:13 No problem.
1:13:13 What’s your name?
1:13:16 Well, I use my best friend’s name, Jason Walker.
1:13:19 Uh, you know, from the fourth grade, I said, Jason Walker.
1:13:20 Oh, Hey Jason, how you doing?
1:13:22 Anyway, I buy the, I buy the shirts.
1:13:24 And at the end, the guy’s like, Hey, they’re X amount.
1:13:26 Um, how do you want to pay for it?
1:13:29 I’m like, oh man, well, I can’t give him a credit card that says, Hey, it’s Barnard.
1:13:31 So I’m like, hold on a second.
1:13:32 I left my wallet in the car.
1:13:33 I go to the ATM.
1:13:35 I get the money out.
1:13:36 I think it was like $150.
1:13:40 I go in and I’m like, Hey man, um, you know, I just had cash.
1:13:41 Is this okay?
1:13:43 He’s like, yeah, Jason, you got a phone number.
1:13:44 Cool.
1:13:45 We’ll call you.
1:13:48 And in those days, it was like a month and a half where your shirts are done.
1:13:48 Okay.
1:13:50 So I’m like, all right.
1:13:52 So now you can imagine a month and a half.
1:13:56 I’m sitting there making my phone calls at Oracle, do my whole thing.
1:13:58 And I’m thinking, man, am I going to meet my dad?
1:13:58 Am I going to meet my dad?
1:14:00 Put my best suit on.
1:14:01 They call, they leave a voicemail.
1:14:02 Your shirts are ready.
1:14:03 I go back.
1:14:05 Well, this time I can see him.
1:14:09 This time I’m like, oh man, that’s definitely him.
1:14:14 When you see your dad for the first time, you’re like, okay, that that’s his face.
1:14:15 Now he’s shorter than me.
1:14:18 He’s a little fuller than me, but that that’s his face.
1:14:20 And, uh, I’m like, oh boy.
1:14:20 Okay.
1:14:21 This is it.
1:14:24 Well, he comes out and he’s got a cigarette in his hand.
1:14:26 He’s, he’s, it isn’t lit yet.
1:14:29 And he’s got the lighter in his hand and it’s dusk.
1:14:30 It’s about five 30 at night.
1:14:34 Cause I driven down at that after work and he goes back and he goes back in the back alley.
1:14:38 And I’m like, wow, he’s in that back alley back there.
1:14:42 If I’m ever going to go back there and I don’t want to embarrass him or anything, I’m going
1:14:43 to go there and meet him.
1:14:46 And so I get out, I can see him in the rear view mirror.
1:14:47 So my car is parked this way.
1:14:49 He was kind of behind me.
1:14:50 So I was kind of looking in the rear view mirror.
1:14:52 So I get out of the car.
1:14:53 I’m ready.
1:14:54 You can imagine.
1:14:54 Okay.
1:14:56 I’m like, I’m like 30 years old.
1:14:58 I’ve made it making good money.
1:15:00 I got my, my suit.
1:15:01 I want my father to be proud of me.
1:15:04 And, um, you know, big, big moment for me.
1:15:06 And so, but I’m shaking.
1:15:07 I’m like, I’m, my heart’s pumping.
1:15:11 I go around the corner and he, Oh shit, you startled me.
1:15:13 And he’s having his cigarette.
1:15:14 I said, I’m so sorry.
1:15:16 I didn’t mean to startle you.
1:15:19 Um, I just came back here to introduce myself to you.
1:15:21 And he said, um, well, great.
1:15:22 He goes, my name is Jim Barnard.
1:15:29 And, um, I took a deep breath and I was like, my name is Hayes Barnard.
1:15:38 And, um, he, he had that cigarette in his hand, his hand started shaking and, you know, you
1:15:41 could just, you could just, and he just looked at me and he just said, son.
1:15:47 I said, yeah, and he’s like, I’m so sorry.
1:15:50 And I was like, man, don’t, don’t be sorry at all.
1:15:52 And he buried his head in my chest.
1:15:58 I wrapped my arms around him and I just held him, you know, for like 20 minutes.
1:16:00 He cried in my chest.
1:16:05 My whole shirt was covered in, you know, his tears and snot and the whole thing, man, you
1:16:06 can imagine.
1:16:06 It’s really powerful.
1:16:10 Now in the moment, I’m like, he probably thought this guy come from Chicago.
1:16:11 Did he come from Missouri?
1:16:13 Like, like, what is this kid doing out here?
1:16:17 And, um, so, you know, I said, dad, it’s okay.
1:16:18 Don’t be sorry.
1:16:19 Don’t be sorry.
1:16:19 Don’t be sorry.
1:16:21 You know, I just wanted to meet you.
1:16:22 And he goes, I’m so sorry.
1:16:23 I’m so sorry.
1:16:25 And I said, don’t be sorry, you know?
1:16:28 And so, sorry, I’m getting a little emotional.
1:16:33 We, um, we go inside and this guy I bought the shirts from, his name is Dwayne.
1:16:35 And he goes, Hey, Jason, right?
1:16:37 And I said, no, no, my name’s Hayes.
1:16:39 And, um, and he said, Hayes.
1:16:47 And, uh, my father, um, said, uh, Hey, Dwayne, he’d worked for him for about 15 years at Patrick
1:16:48 James selling clothes there.
1:16:50 He said, this is my son.
1:16:52 This is, this is Hayes Barnard.
1:16:54 And he said, Jim, I didn’t know you had a son.
1:16:58 And he said, well, yeah, I got a son and, uh, this, this is him.
1:17:02 And so that was it, you know, I, I kind of met my dad there and he said, Hey, by any chance,
1:17:03 do you like football?
1:17:08 You know, I, I got a 49ers tickets and I was like, yeah, you know, I, I, uh, I do like football
1:17:11 dad and I’d love to go to a 49ers game with you.
1:17:13 And then that, that was it, man.
1:17:15 I learned a lot about my life after that, which was amazing.
1:17:18 You know, there’s all these super interesting things I learned about my life.
1:17:21 When you meet your father, when you’re, when you’re 30 years old, you know?
1:17:21 Yeah.
1:17:28 The one thing that strikes me there is like, you weren’t resentful or upset.
1:17:30 Like, I mean, like that seems unusual to me.
1:17:34 Well, I had realized by that point in time, probably the best thing that ever happened to
1:17:35 me was not having a father.
1:17:39 I know, I know it sounds terrible now, but I didn’t have, when I was a young boy, I was
1:17:39 angry.
1:17:44 You know, why don’t I have a dad and why do we live like this and all those kinds of things.
1:17:51 And then as a, um, as an older man, you realize that having a mother in that situation and
1:17:55 the drive and the responsibility that he gave you was probably one of the greatest gifts that
1:17:56 ever happened in my life.
1:18:00 And so I was there really more, probably cause I was looking for affirmation from him.
1:18:02 I wanted him to be proud.
1:18:07 I wanted him to see how hard I had worked and the things that I had done and have a level of
1:18:12 respect for me that, um, for, for some, whatever reason, it was just important to have that,
1:18:14 that affirmation from my dad.
1:18:19 And so I got, I got that closure, you know, he, I didn’t get a lot of time with him.
1:18:25 He ended up passing away, but he definitely had an opportunity to get to know me, to get
1:18:29 to know my kids, to get to know my wife, to get to see me and some of the things that I
1:18:29 had done.
1:18:33 And we expressed a lot of love and respect for each other.
1:18:39 So for me, it’s like, sometimes that’s your opportunity to show a tremendous amount of
1:18:40 compassion and empathy for someone.
1:18:41 He did the best he could, man.
1:18:42 He had addiction issues.
1:18:43 He had some challenges.
1:18:46 He had his own issues with self-confidence.
1:18:50 You know, his, his father passed away really, really young.
1:18:51 His father was a severe alcoholic.
1:18:55 His grandfather was a severe alcoholic.
1:19:00 And so he was adopted by this guy, Hayden Barnard, which was this renowned doctor in
1:19:03 Hensdale, Illinois, when he was 12 years old.
1:19:07 His real name was James Neal O’Brien was my father’s name.
1:19:11 But at 12 years old, they changed his name to Jim Barnard.
1:19:16 And that’s why he named me Hayden Barnard, because the guy that adopted him was this
1:19:16 guy.
1:19:19 His name was Hayden, Hayden Barnard.
1:19:20 Yeah.
1:19:21 That’s amazing.
1:19:21 Yeah.
1:19:23 I appreciate you telling that story.
1:19:24 Yeah, you’re welcome, man.
1:19:24 Yeah, it’s good.
1:19:25 Thanks for asking.
1:19:26 I’ve never told that one before.
1:19:29 Definitely on camera, but yeah.
1:19:34 I mean, I think one of your, the things you try to do is, what did you say your life mission
1:19:34 is?
1:19:38 Connect the hearts of people all around the world for good or for positive?
1:19:39 Yeah, yeah.
1:19:40 Connect hearts of others.
1:19:41 Create positive change in the world.
1:19:42 How do you do that?
1:19:45 Without sharing your own stories and your own vulnerabilities, right?
1:19:46 Yeah, absolutely.
1:19:49 I think there’s a lot of people out there that probably didn’t have a father or had challenges
1:19:51 with their father in some way, shape or form.
1:19:58 And so, you know, it honestly, it’s a valley for a lot of people when they’re young, but it’s
1:20:01 probably a spike for people later in their life.
1:20:01 Right.
1:20:02 You know, yeah.
1:20:03 You told me about the lay in the dirt story.
1:20:05 I love this story.
1:20:06 Yeah.
1:20:06 What’s that story?
1:20:07 Yeah.
1:20:11 Look, look, it was a very, very difficult time for me and I was really, really,
1:20:12 really hurting.
1:20:14 And so I had this idea.
1:20:17 I’d heard from a friend of mine, Brad Tewksbury, went to this organization at the time.
1:20:19 It was called Building With Books.
1:20:20 It’s called Build On Now.
1:20:23 And he had gone to Africa and he built a school and he came back.
1:20:26 And Tewks was like this awesome guy I worked with at Oracle.
1:20:29 And Tewks was like, look, you should do this, man.
1:20:30 You’d find a lot of meaning in this.
1:20:34 And so when I was like, you know, I’ve had the victim mindset, the woe is me.
1:20:36 Oh, man, I had to lay off these people.
1:20:38 Oh, man, I’m really hurting right now.
1:20:39 I’m in this tough spot.
1:20:44 I went to my executive team and I said, look, crazy idea.
1:20:46 What if we all go to Africa and we build a school?
1:20:50 And they’re like, look, man, we’re struggling right now.
1:20:51 We just laid off 400 people.
1:20:56 Why in the world do we go to Africa and go build a school with some organization called Build On?
1:20:57 I’m like, I don’t know.
1:20:58 Tewks went.
1:20:59 He said it was amazing.
1:21:04 I think we should raise some money from our friends and we should go lay in the dirt and we should get grounded.
1:21:06 And it just called me.
1:21:09 Long story short, everybody’s like, we’re in.
1:21:10 Let’s go make it happen.
1:21:12 We raise a little money.
1:21:17 We fly over to Bamako over in West Mali, Africa.
1:21:23 We load up this like van with a goat on top.
1:21:26 Literally, we strapped a goat to the top of this van.
1:21:31 We all got our backpacks and we drive 16 hours out to the Zaremburu tribe.
1:21:32 Why’d you need a goat on the van?
1:21:34 Well, I didn’t know.
1:21:35 I had no idea because the handler’s there.
1:21:36 Don’t ask too many questions.
1:21:36 You got to bring a goat.
1:21:38 I’m like, we got to bring a goat.
1:21:39 I’ve never been in Africa.
1:21:40 Like, this is interesting.
1:21:42 And so we get there.
1:21:43 We meet the chief.
1:21:44 We got the translators.
1:21:45 They’re doing a whole thing.
1:21:51 Then we slit the goat’s throat, you know, because in this part of the world, you drink the blood of the goat.
1:21:53 And that’s the ceremonial thing.
1:21:54 And you’re welcomed into the village.
1:22:00 And then the big deal, they cook the goat because most of the time they just eat this grain, this mullet, basically, every single day.
1:22:02 And then I laid in the dirt.
1:22:06 And this woman, Awa, I was in her hut.
1:22:07 So they just welcome you.
1:22:09 You dance in the village every night.
1:22:10 You sing.
1:22:12 These people are so happy and alive.
1:22:12 Now, it’s sad.
1:22:19 They die by the time they’re 30 years old because they drink poison every single day and all these other things.
1:22:22 But they’re very, very happy people.
1:22:27 And so I, with my brother-in-law, we’re laying in the dirt in this tent.
1:22:30 And then everybody else has their own little kind of, like, hut.
1:22:32 It’s like a mud hut kind of situation.
1:22:36 And all the kookamanja spiders are around you, man.
1:22:39 You know, you go to the bathroom in this little hole.
1:22:43 And then when you open up the hole, there’s all the kookamanja spiders in there as well.
1:22:44 The headlamps on.
1:22:45 You’re like, oh, man.
1:22:47 You know, your whole nervous system is being shooken up.
1:22:52 But about every morning, about 2.30 a.m., you can hear Awa.
1:22:53 She’s shaking that grain, man.
1:22:56 And you’re thinking, man, she’s shaking that grain for me.
1:22:58 You can just hear it.
1:23:00 And you’re like, wow, man.
1:23:02 Like, she’s up there 2.30 in the morning.
1:23:04 She’s shaking that grain for me.
1:23:06 And then all of a sudden, you hear her hacking something.
1:23:07 She’s hacking the wood.
1:23:10 And then she’s lighting the fire for you.
1:23:12 And I’m like, what’s she lighting a fire for?
1:23:15 Why would she be lighting a fire at, like, 3 in the morning?
1:23:18 So every morning for seven nights, you’re thinking about this.
1:23:20 And then all of a sudden, I would come out in the morning.
1:23:29 And the bucket of water would be over the fire so I could bathe in the morning with this bucket of warm water.
1:23:32 Well, I figured out on the second day, I said, where do you get the water?
1:23:34 And she’s like, oh, let me take you.
1:23:36 I thought she was going to take me around the corner.
1:23:38 We’re gone for five hours.
1:23:47 We walk, like, literally, like, five miles to a river where all this livestock basically lives.
1:23:49 And she puts the water on her head.
1:23:52 And then she walks back another four or five miles.
1:23:54 I go, you do this every single day?
1:23:57 And you do this for my bucket of water so that I could bathe?
1:24:02 And I would bathe in the morning and at night before I would go to bed.
1:24:10 And the guilt, it was almost like, wait a second, whoa, man, this is, like, really messed up.
1:24:13 And so, you know, I just had this epiphany, man.
1:24:19 Like, the fifth night I’m laying in there, I was like, okay, we’re building this school, but it’s almost all boys in the school.
1:24:20 Where are the girls?
1:24:22 Well, the girls are fetching water.
1:24:26 They’re filling their buckets versus, you know, filling their brains in the classroom.
1:24:29 And I was like, there’s got to be a way for me to figure this out.
1:24:32 Now, at the time, I was diversifying in the solar business.
1:24:40 And I thought, man, what if I could put solar on all these schools and we could get Intel and other players to donate the laptops?
1:24:47 We could extend the hours in the classroom so the women can get educated, too, so our kids can get educated.
1:24:49 And so, I just had this lightning rod moment, man.
1:24:58 Like, I just have these big downloads at certain times in my life from, like, okay, I need to start a foundation that’s going to basically find a way to light up all these schools.
1:25:01 And so, that was the moment.
1:25:03 That’s how I came up with it.
1:25:03 Wow.
1:25:03 Yeah.
1:25:15 And so, you go back and you kind of had a model that was like the Tom’s model, right, for when we sell solar here in the U.S., then we can give solar in Africa on the schools, right?
1:25:17 That was sort of the blueprint.
1:25:19 Well, let me explain how it went down.
1:25:21 So, the solar company takes off quick.
1:25:23 You know, we become the second largest solar company.
1:25:24 Maybe it’s the third.
1:25:25 There was, like, Sunrun.
1:25:28 There was SolarCity and us.
1:25:31 These were kind of, like, the three players of residential solar in the United States.
1:25:34 And I was partnered with Sunrun and I was partnered with SolarCity.
1:25:37 Like, you would sell it, they would install it, right?
1:25:37 That’s right.
1:25:38 You nailed it.
1:25:41 And so, and then we were good at financing as well.
1:25:44 So, we started to launch our own tax equity funds, our own financing funds.
1:25:56 This is a new way where we could basically, we used structured finance solutions to offer zero-down solutions for financing for people to electrify their homes, to put solar on their homes.
1:25:57 I think there’s a good story.
1:26:00 I don’t know what the story is, but they told me it’s a good story.
1:26:04 About how you struck the deal with SolarCity.
1:26:12 Well, so, we’re doing about 40% of SolarCity’s business at the time and less in Sunrun.
1:26:16 But both companies, the woman that founded Sunrun, her name’s Lynn Urich.
1:26:17 She’s an amazing woman.
1:26:25 And Lyndon, who was the CEO of SolarCity, who’s Elon’s cousin, I had a great relationship with both of them.
1:26:27 And they both came and said, look, we’d love to buy you, okay?
1:26:28 We’d love to buy you.
1:26:30 We’d love to enroll you in.
1:26:33 We’d love to make you a part of the organization in what we’re doing.
1:26:35 And so, we had a lot of discussions.
1:26:37 And I was like, well, do you want the insurance company?
1:26:38 Do you want the mortgage company?
1:26:38 Like, no.
1:26:40 You can keep your other two sad companies.
1:26:41 You know, I’m joking.
1:26:42 I’m joking.
1:26:45 But we want you and we want the solar business.
1:26:51 And so, after some thought, Lynn and I had become really close personal friends.
1:26:52 Our families were vacationing together.
1:26:54 Our kids were really close friends.
1:26:55 Our wives were really close friends.
1:27:02 His brother, Pete, you know, also I became very close with him and his wife and his kids.
1:27:04 And so, we were becoming a family.
1:27:05 They said, hey, come on, man.
1:27:09 You know, we’re going to IPO this company and we really need you to be a part of it.
1:27:13 Or we’ll IPO it and then we’ll buy you like a week or two later.
1:27:15 And so, I said, hey, I’m open to it.
1:27:17 You know, let’s think about it.
1:27:18 You know, we had met with Elon.
1:27:24 We had discussions with him and talked about how we could build the biggest solar company in the history of the world.
1:27:27 And what this could look like and all the things that we could do.
1:27:36 And so, I was going to build a solar system down in – for a school, for BuildOn, down in Nicaragua.
1:27:37 And I said, look, would you come with me?
1:27:42 Would you come with me to see us put solar on a school in Nicaragua and the impact we can make?
1:27:44 I have this big vision for putting solar on all these schools.
1:27:45 Well, Lyndon was awesome.
1:27:46 He goes, I’m in.
1:27:47 Let’s go make it happen.
1:27:49 So, we went down to Nicaragua.
1:27:51 We built a solar system for the school.
1:27:52 Lyndon and I sit on the roof.
1:27:54 He’s like, this is unbelievable, man.
1:27:57 This is a really, really cool thing to do.
1:28:03 And I said, what if for every megawatt of energy we deploy here in the United States, we put solar on a school somewhere in the world?
1:28:05 And he was like, I love it, man.
1:28:07 Let’s make it happen.
1:28:09 Let’s do it through a 501c3 nonprofit.
1:28:15 And so, in three years, we put solar on like 2,500 schools in several countries in the world.
1:28:16 That’s amazing.
1:28:16 Yeah.
1:28:21 You’re doing some amazing things right now with your philanthropy around water.
1:28:25 But your organization named Give Power, you talked about how you were doing solar panels on schools.
1:28:28 So, where did the shift go from solar panels to water?
1:28:38 Well, so, three years later, I go back to all these places in the world, whether it was Nepal or Nicaragua or different parts of Africa and Kenya.
1:28:42 And I realized that we had lit up all these schools.
1:28:45 And then when you walk into the schools, this made me sad.
1:28:49 It was a bunch of guys with their cell phones plugged in or people playing video games on laptops.
1:28:50 I’m like, great.
1:28:53 I brought video games to the developing world.
1:28:57 I gave these guys cell phones because they didn’t have cell phones when I was there the first time.
1:29:03 The first time they saw my cell phone, and you would like take a picture of them, and they were like, whoa, that’s me?
1:29:05 They’ve never seen themselves in a mirror, realized, you know?
1:29:06 Wow.
1:29:07 Yeah, I mean, these people are amazing.
1:29:08 They brush their teeth with a stick.
1:29:14 And now, all of a sudden, I brought cell phones to this area because we brought power to this area.
1:29:16 I was like, this wasn’t a great idea.
1:29:17 And go figure.
1:29:22 I was so stupid that the women weren’t sitting in the classroom until 7 o’clock at night.
1:29:23 They were exhausted.
1:29:28 They were still going and fetching water for, you know, whatever it was, five hours a day.
1:29:32 And so, Awa was still doing her thing, and her daughters weren’t in the classroom.
1:29:36 That hit me pretty hard, to be honest with you.
1:29:41 I was like, wow, we’ve done whatever it was at the time, 2,500, 2,600 schools.
1:29:43 And yes, it was great.
1:29:47 We brought electricity to the school, and the school had light, but it didn’t accomplish the mission that I wanted.
1:29:53 And what I realized was we need to invent a magic water box, basically.
1:30:07 We’ve got to find a way to bring the water into the village in a way where the women are in the classroom, they’re not fetching water, and it’s healthy, affordable water.
1:30:08 So, how could you do that?
1:30:14 And now, at the time, now, I’ve really got this solar thing under my belt, and we were starting to do these things called microgrids.
1:30:18 Sometimes, wealthy people will call us and say, could you do a microgrid on my island?
1:30:20 I’m like, well, I don’t know, maybe.
1:30:21 Well, our engineers were brilliant.
1:30:22 They can figure this out.
1:30:23 And I was like, well, wait a minute.
1:30:32 If we can build microgrids for people on islands off-grid with this new battery storage we had invented and solar, this is kind of interesting.
1:30:33 What if we could bring it to the developing world?
1:30:48 At the same time, a friend of mine in my neighborhood in Tiburon had invented a water pump for yachts where he wanted to travel around the world on his yacht and have that water pump pull water out of the ocean so he could drink healthy water all day without having to stop.
1:30:48 I said, how’d you do it?
1:30:50 He said, I did it with a solar panel.
1:30:52 I’m like, ooh, wow, that’s super interesting.
1:30:53 So, I found this guy.
1:30:57 His name is Kyle Steffen, who is the president of a company called Spectra Watermakers.
1:31:00 And we went to him, and we said, look, crazy idea.
1:31:11 Can we marry you and your genius with these pumps with these amazing engineers that we have that work with us at SolarCity and Tesla that really understand battery storage and solar?
1:31:21 And can we marry that together to be able to produce healthy, affordable, fresh water out of a brackish well or out of the ocean utilizing reverse osmosis and de-cell?
1:31:24 And they were like, can’t be done.
1:31:25 It’s too grid intensive.
1:31:26 It’s too expensive.
1:31:29 Good luck.
1:31:30 You’re naive.
1:31:32 You have no idea.
1:31:36 You’re not a good enough engineer to understand that this is impossible.
1:31:37 It’s too expensive.
1:31:38 Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
1:31:39 I said, well, look, I am naive.
1:31:40 I want to try.
1:31:42 Let’s give it a shot.
1:31:47 And so, we spent about a year trying to build that system, maybe a year and a half.
1:31:49 We couldn’t get it to work.
1:31:50 And then, finally, we cracked the code.
1:31:53 And I was like, well, let’s put it in a container.
1:31:55 We can ship it anywhere in the world.
1:32:04 We will drop these things all over the world and we’ll produce healthy, affordable, sustainable water for people off grid in these communities where we’ve done these schools.
1:32:08 And now, we’ve done that, you know, many times over.
1:32:09 And that was the breakthrough.
1:32:10 And the insight was, wait a minute.
1:32:11 Okay.
1:32:23 We could kind of almost turn this into an economic model like Milkman in the 1960s where we changed the model where women can actually make money and earn a living by distributing this water.
1:32:25 And what people don’t understand—
1:32:27 Like, after it’s clean, basically.
1:32:28 Yeah, absolutely.
1:32:33 Instead of carrying the dirty water back, take the clean water and become distributors for this, right?
1:32:34 Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
1:32:36 And so, there’s a lot of people that have these causes.
1:32:38 They say, we need to address migration issues.
1:32:45 We need to address these socioeconomic issues, women’s rights issues, education issues, healthcare issues.
1:32:53 What I realized, the breakthrough epiphany that I had was, you can’t address migration issues until you address the water issue.
1:32:59 You know, when, like, Greg Brenneman, who is on the board of Home Depot, this guy’s an amazing CEO.
1:33:01 He’s an incredible philanthropist.
1:33:07 He was, like, the CEO of Yum Yum Brands for a while, Bain Capital, Continental Airlines.
1:33:09 He and I went to Honduras.
1:33:11 And we flew around Honduras together.
1:33:16 We went to all these different locations that had issues with migration, water scarcity, all these things.
1:33:19 And he had the breakthrough with me where he was like, you know what?
1:33:21 We got to solve the water issue, man.
1:33:23 Otherwise, people are going to move.
1:33:24 And I go, Greg, look at me.
1:33:25 You and I are pretty capable guys.
1:33:27 Imagine you and I grew up here.
1:33:27 We live here.
1:33:31 Are we going to leave if we’re drinking poison every day and everyone’s dying by the time they’re 30?
1:33:33 He’s like, we’re going to leave.
1:33:34 I said, exactly.
1:33:36 So, water is the unlock.
1:33:44 Water is the foundation and fundamental thing that now allows you to say, okay, now we can educate the women because they have the time.
1:33:46 They’re not fetching water all day long.
1:33:58 Now we can change the socioeconomic model where people can sell the water and distribute the water within the communities like Milkman and Lighten in the 1960s and their Tuk-Tuks and all these other cool contraptions they build to distribute this water.
1:34:07 Now we can talk about healthcare issues because people are drinking fresh, affordable water, and they can stay alive.
1:34:09 But you can’t stay alive if you drink poison.
1:34:12 And so, that’s why I’m really passionate about it.
1:34:13 It checks a lot of boxes for me.
1:34:14 Yeah.
1:34:15 That’s amazing.
1:34:16 I went to Africa.
1:34:18 I went to Ethiopia with Charity Water.
1:34:31 And we – it was like – because even when you hear like, oh, they have to walk to get water, walk is the wrong word because it’s basically – it might just be scorching hot, first of all.
1:34:32 You’re in like a desert.
1:34:42 You’re walking and then you’re carrying – like a farm – if everyone’s gone to like a personal trainer’s head and made you do a farmer’s carry where you’re carrying like 45-pound dumbbells on both sides and now walk for four hours.
1:34:43 Right.
1:34:45 So, they had us do like the carry of the water.
1:34:46 It’s heavy, isn’t it?
1:34:47 Oh, my –
1:34:48 How does one man do this?
1:34:50 I got like 60 steps and I’m like –
1:34:50 Yeah.
1:34:55 I work out five times a week, you know, and this woman would just throw it up on her head and walk for four hours.
1:34:56 Yeah.
1:34:58 I mean, it’s like the ultimate sales pitch.
1:35:02 It’s like if you could just get everyone in the world to try that walk one time.
1:35:02 Yeah.
1:35:05 You know, everybody would be like, yeah, we got to solve this problem.
1:35:05 Yeah.
1:35:09 No, it’s – and Charity Water is a phenomenal organization, water.org.
1:35:12 Like all these people are trying to solve the problem in different ways.
1:35:17 Ours is, you know, there’s two billion people in the world that lack access to electricity.
1:35:23 They’re the same two billion people in the world that lack access to sustainable water, that have water scarcity issues.
1:35:31 And so, this is not about just water filtration or, you know, distributing water.
1:35:34 This is about dignity, man.
1:35:35 This is about hope.
1:35:38 This is about opportunity for humanity in these areas.
1:35:45 Incapable people like you, I’m telling you, Sean, if you laid in the dirt with me and I just got back from a trip recently.
1:35:46 I was over in Kenya.
1:35:58 I did a trek over there with 20 UT students and then I went to Mombasa and I got in the Bowser and I delivered water and I raced the guys with the, you know, the whatever, the 30 jugs of liters of water in there.
1:36:02 You just realize, like, I’m alive when I’m there.
1:36:05 I can see, I’m not in the vitamin business when I’m there.
1:36:08 I’m in the life-saving business when I’m there.
1:36:12 Every drop of water that we distribute, we, you know, we save a life.
1:36:15 And we’ve got the unit economics, as you know, it all comes down to math.
1:36:20 We’ve got the unit economics down to a penny a day, a penny a day for someone.
1:36:21 And so—
1:36:22 A penny a day.
1:36:23 Explain that more.
1:36:30 For one cent, you can provide healthy, affordable drinking water for one person for a day.
1:36:32 It’s a penny a day, man.
1:36:39 And we maintain these systems for basically we sell the water in the areas for half of a cent, okay?
1:36:42 And that allows us to take care of all the operations and maintenance.
1:36:51 It allows us to pay for all the people that work in the area, that work on the system for us, that maintain the system and those kinds of things.
1:36:52 So it’s got real teeth to it.
1:36:56 I mean, this thing is a real economic model that scales.
1:36:59 And so I’m really happy with the team.
1:37:04 It’s an extraordinary group of people that have really thought through, okay, now how do we go scale that?
1:37:10 How do we go, you know, deploy as many of those systems as we possibly can all throughout the world for these people as fast as we can?
1:37:14 And people go, well, you know, what happens with the salt that goes back in?
1:37:18 These systems produce about 75,000 liters of water every single day.
1:37:22 So one system produces 75,000 liters of water every single day.
1:37:28 And we design them at a scale in which it’s a very small amount of salt that goes back into the ocean.
1:37:32 And then we can now—we’ve invented other systems where we can pull it right out of a brackish well.
1:37:37 The little hidden secret that most people don’t know is a lot of these boreholes that are drilled, they go brackish.
1:37:40 And then they sit there, and then no one does anything with them.
1:37:43 We can take our systems, drop our lines in there.
1:37:50 We can desal that water utilizing reverse osmosis, and we can deliver that healthy water to these communities as well.
1:37:52 Water is life.
1:37:52 It’s pretty cool.
1:37:56 So if somebody’s inspired, what’s the right way to kind of get involved or give?
1:37:58 What’s the call to action?
1:38:06 Yeah, look, I mean, you can go to the GivePower website, and it’s just givepower.org, and you can kind of see ways in which you can give and those kinds of things.
1:38:11 We’re trying to come up with all different types of way where people can participate.
1:38:17 We sent about 1,300 people on treks over the last few years, so I want them to see it.
1:38:33 I want them to go, like, you shouldn’t have to sacrifice your entire life just so you can have a glass of water, and you’re there, and you see when you roll your sleeves up, and you get your hands dirty, and you build one of these systems, you see how technology can transform communities overnight.
1:38:35 Like, not over a year, like, instantaneous.
1:38:39 The moment the water comes on, everybody’s alive.
1:38:51 Everybody’s, like, celebrating and dancing and singing, and all of a sudden, the kids are healthier, and everybody’s vibrant, and it just creates a tremendous amount of optimism and hope and opportunity.
1:38:52 That’s amazing.
1:38:54 Hey, dude, thank you for doing this.
1:38:55 I really appreciate it.
1:38:55 Yeah.
1:38:56 Thank you, too, man.
1:38:58 I feel like I can rule the world.
1:39:01 I know I could be what I want to.
1:39:04 I put my all in it like no day’s off.
1:39:06 On the road, let’s travel, never looking back.
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