The Great Enshittening

0:00:01 This episode is brought to you by Peloton.
0:00:04 A new era of fitness is here.
0:00:07 Introducing the new Peloton Cross-Training Tread Plus,
0:00:09 powered by Peloton IQ.
0:00:12 Built for breakthroughs, with personalized workout plans,
0:00:15 real-time insights, and endless ways to move.
0:00:18 Lift with confidence, while Peloton IQ counts reps,
0:00:20 corrects form, and tracks your progress.
0:00:24 Let yourself run, lift, flow, and go.
0:00:27 Explore the new Peloton Cross-Training Tread Plus
0:00:28 at onepeloton.ca.
0:00:33 Did you lock the front door?
0:00:34 Check.
0:00:35 Closed the garage door?
0:00:36 Yep.
0:00:37 Installed window sensors, smoke sensors,
0:00:39 and HD cameras with night vision?
0:00:40 No.
0:00:42 And you set up credit card transaction alerts,
0:00:43 a secure VPN for a private connection,
0:00:46 and continuous monitoring for our personal info on the dark web?
0:00:49 Uh, I’m looking into it?
0:00:51 Stress less about security.
0:00:53 Choose security solutions from Telus
0:00:55 for peace of mind at home and online.
0:00:58 Visit telus.com slash total security to learn more.
0:00:59 Conditions apply.
0:01:06 Open a browser or almost any app,
0:01:07 and you can feel it instantly.
0:01:12 The thing you liked is somehow shittier.
0:01:14 Search results that feel like ads,
0:01:18 social feeds you can’t quite control,
0:01:20 services that used to be free,
0:01:22 now behind a paywall.
0:01:26 This is the life cycle of the modern platform.
0:01:28 It starts out great.
0:01:32 Then it shifts, squeezing you a little here,
0:01:34 annoying you a little there.
0:01:37 And eventually it turns to shit.
0:01:40 And if you really think about it,
0:01:41 it’s not just apps.
0:01:43 It’s also the airlines,
0:01:45 and your healthcare,
0:01:47 and so many other things.
0:01:52 The word for this phenomenon is in-shittification.
0:01:57 And it’s quickly becoming a defining feature of the modern world.
0:02:01 I’m Sean Elling,
0:02:03 and this is The Gray Area.
0:02:20 My guest today is Corey Doctorow.
0:02:24 He’s been chronicling the politics of tech for decades as a journalist,
0:02:25 an activist,
0:02:27 and a science fiction writer.
0:02:31 His new book is appropriately titled In-Shittification,
0:02:34 Why Everything Suddenly Got Worse and What to Do About It.
0:02:38 I loved this conversation.
0:02:40 Corey is whip smart,
0:02:43 and really knows this world as well as anyone.
0:02:45 I learned a ton,
0:02:46 and I think you will too.
0:02:55 Corey Doctorow,
0:02:57 welcome to the show.
0:02:58 Thank you very much.
0:02:59 Pleasure to be on.
0:03:01 Let’s just start with the basics here, Corey.
0:03:04 What is in-shittification?
0:03:06 Give me your cleanest definition.
0:03:07 Sure.
0:03:09 Well, a little context here.
0:03:11 I, for my entire adult life,
0:03:13 or at least the majority of it,
0:03:15 have worked for the Electronic Frontier Foundation,
0:03:17 a non-profit that works on digital rights.
0:03:20 And these are very abstract, technical questions.
0:03:22 They eventually become very concrete and immediate,
0:03:24 but that’s usually when something terrible has happened to you,
0:03:26 so the challenge is to get people to care about it beforehand.
0:03:30 And so, in-shittification is not a new idea.
0:03:32 It’s really an encapsulation of decades of things
0:03:34 that I’ve been trying to get people to care about.
0:03:36 But it turns out that when you start swearing,
0:03:38 it’s kind of a magic combination,
0:03:40 and people start paying attention to it.
0:03:44 The formal definition of in-shittification
0:03:49 is both a kind of descriptive and theoretical idea.
0:03:52 So, descriptively, it describes how platforms go bad.
0:03:54 That first, they’re good to their end users.
0:03:56 They find a way to lock those end users in,
0:03:59 and then they make things worse for those end users,
0:04:00 because the lock-in means that the end users
0:04:02 are unlikely to depart.
0:04:04 They use that new surplus
0:04:05 to make things good for business customers.
0:04:07 They lock those business customers in,
0:04:09 making them dependent on those end users,
0:04:12 and then they make things worse for the business customers, too,
0:04:13 and then they turn into a pile of shit.
0:04:17 This, I think, is a process that many of us can recognize
0:04:20 in platforms as diverse as like Uber or Google,
0:04:23 but what is, I think, more interesting and important
0:04:27 is the theoretical work on why this is happening now.
0:04:30 How come all these platforms are doing this now?
0:04:35 So, when would you say the great in-shittening officially began?
0:04:38 If you had to bark the era, where would you start?
0:04:39 Not that it’s that neat, but where would you start?
0:04:40 Right.
0:04:42 Well, like you say, it’s not neat.
0:04:44 I think the defining characteristic of in-shittification
0:04:46 is not that things got worse,
0:04:48 but that we kept using them after they got worse.
0:04:51 And so, that makes it hard to find a demarcation point.
0:04:53 It’s definitely like moments where we can say,
0:04:56 oh, this is definitely post-in-shittification.
0:05:00 Like 2019, we see in the court records
0:05:02 from the Google antitrust case last year
0:05:04 that these two executives at Google had a fight.
0:05:07 There was the head of Google search, Prabhagar Raghavan,
0:05:09 and the head of Google search technology,
0:05:11 a guy called Ben Gomes, who’d been with Google
0:05:13 since it was like one server under a desktop
0:05:15 and had built out all their server infra.
0:05:20 And Raghavan had this idea to make search growth come back
0:05:22 after the company had achieved a 90% market share,
0:05:23 after which it’s very hard to grow,
0:05:25 by making search worse.
0:05:27 So, you’d have to search more than once to get your answer
0:05:28 and they get to show you more ads.
0:05:31 So, you know, clearly that is in-shittification
0:05:35 and clearly most of us are still using Google today,
0:05:38 but I wouldn’t say that that’s like the moment it happened.
0:05:41 Why do we keep using shit after it gets worse?
0:05:44 Why don’t we just quit and move to something that isn’t shit?
0:05:48 So, I think there’s a kind of galaxy brain version of this
0:05:49 where it’s like stage one,
0:05:51 it’s because consumers are dumb
0:05:53 and you like shopped wrong
0:05:55 and if only you shopped better
0:05:57 and been willing to pay for things
0:05:59 rather than getting them ad supported,
0:06:00 everything would be fine
0:06:01 because if you’re not paying for the product,
0:06:02 you’re the product.
0:06:03 This is obviously wrong.
0:06:05 It’s not just that the platforms were greedy
0:06:07 or that VCs were greedy
0:06:08 because VCs have been greedy
0:06:09 and platforms have been greedy forever.
0:06:12 So, I think the thing to understand,
0:06:14 the thing that changed
0:06:18 is that the constraints on firms changed,
0:06:20 the things that punished them when they did poorly
0:06:21 and one of them was competition.
0:06:25 So, it’s very hard to take your business elsewhere
0:06:26 when there’s nowhere else to take your business.
0:06:28 You know, as Tom Eastman says,
0:06:29 I’m old enough to remember
0:06:31 when the internet wasn’t five giant websites
0:06:33 filled with screenshots of text from the other four
0:06:36 and the cartelization of the internet
0:06:39 was downstream of a bunch of very explicit policy choices
0:06:41 to support monopolies.
0:06:45 We have the Chicago school in the 70s and 80s
0:06:46 saying monopolies are efficient.
0:06:49 It’s perverse to punish companies
0:06:51 for having products so good that we all use them.
0:06:54 Antitrust enforcement is a fool’s errand
0:06:56 and, you know, you see that proceeding
0:06:57 over the decades since
0:07:00 with the result of increasing concentration everywhere.
0:07:02 I think my favorite example of this
0:07:04 is Facebook buying Insta
0:07:06 where they’re buying this company
0:07:07 with 12 employees
0:07:10 and they’re giving them a billion dollars.
0:07:12 The CFO of Facebook
0:07:13 sends an email to Mark Zuckerberg
0:07:15 and says this seems like an awful lot of money
0:07:16 for a relatively small firm
0:07:18 and Mark Zuckerberg
0:07:19 who had previously in writing
0:07:21 said it is better to buy than to compete
0:07:24 sent his CFO a memo saying
0:07:25 we’re buying them
0:07:27 because people like Instagram better than Facebook
0:07:29 and they leave Facebook,
0:07:30 they go to Instagram.
0:07:32 If we buy Instagram,
0:07:33 they will still be Facebook users
0:07:35 even if they’re not using the platform.
0:07:38 you know, if you’re an antitrust enforcer,
0:07:40 this is like an admission in writing
0:07:41 and yet the Obama administration
0:07:43 waved that merger through.
0:07:45 In fact, they presided over
0:07:48 so many of these anti-competitive mergers
0:07:49 just like the Bush administration,
0:07:51 just like the Trump administration.
0:07:53 But let me hold you on the monopoly competition point
0:07:55 because we’re going to get there.
0:07:57 I just want to, before we do,
0:07:59 I just want to make sure we sort of break down
0:08:01 the physics of inshittifications
0:08:03 so people understand what’s happening and why.
0:08:06 One of the points you make, right,
0:08:07 is that when we’re talking about this,
0:08:11 we’re talking about a pattern,
0:08:13 a process, whatever you want to call it,
0:08:16 that infects a specific kind of digital business, right,
0:08:17 which is platforms.
0:08:20 Why platforms specifically?
0:08:24 Why are they such fertile soil for shit?
0:08:24 Yeah.
0:08:27 Well, we need platforms on the internet, right?
0:08:28 A platform is just a thing that mediates
0:08:30 between two different groups of users.
0:08:33 And unless you want to do it all yourself, right,
0:08:36 unless you not only want to like write a newsletter,
0:08:37 but also process the payments
0:08:38 and write the mail server
0:08:39 and maintain the mail server and so on,
0:08:41 you need an intermediary in there.
0:08:43 There’s nothing wrong with like not being required
0:08:47 to gnaw your own internet stack
0:08:49 out of a whole log with your own teeth, right?
0:08:52 It’s great to have middlemen who handle stuff for you.
0:08:55 The problem is that they manage to usurp the role
0:08:57 between end users and business customers.
0:08:59 And the way that they do that
0:09:02 is that they have the distinct advantage
0:09:03 of digital technology,
0:09:06 which is that you can alter the business logic
0:09:09 on a per user, per interaction basis.
0:09:10 I call this twiddling.
0:09:13 It makes it very hard
0:09:15 for either group of users to make things better.
0:09:18 And so the majority of affluent households
0:09:19 have Prime subscriptions.
0:09:20 The majority of Prime users,
0:09:22 if they find what they’re looking for
0:09:23 and it’s Prime eligible,
0:09:26 they click on that and they buy it.
0:09:28 That’s the end of their shopping journey.
0:09:30 And because apps are protected
0:09:33 by a strange form of IP law,
0:09:34 something called an anti-circumvention law,
0:09:38 you can’t readily just like add a mod to the app
0:09:40 that say publishes the prices
0:09:41 that you’re getting
0:09:42 or let someone create,
0:09:43 say, 50 synthetic accounts
0:09:44 and compare the results
0:09:47 based on those outcomes.
0:09:48 So that twiddling,
0:09:49 you know,
0:09:50 it’s the intersection
0:09:52 of the incredible flexibility
0:09:53 of digital technology,
0:09:55 along with the IP law
0:09:56 that says that the only people
0:09:57 who can take advantage
0:09:58 of that flexibility
0:09:59 are the people
0:10:01 who are intermediating
0:10:02 between users
0:10:05 and not those users themselves.
0:10:06 Why do we have that law?
0:10:06 That seems crazy.
0:10:07 Yeah.
0:10:09 So it was passed in 1998.
0:10:10 Bill Clinton signed it into law
0:10:11 and it’s an incredible story.
0:10:14 In the early 90s,
0:10:16 Bill Clinton decided
0:10:18 to demilitarize the internet,
0:10:20 to commercialize it.
0:10:21 And he put Al Gore in charge of it.
0:10:22 This is,
0:10:23 if you’ve heard the dumb joke
0:10:24 that Al Gore said,
0:10:25 he invented the internet.
0:10:26 A thing he never said.
0:10:27 This is what they’re talking about.
0:10:29 Gore had these hearings,
0:10:30 the national information
0:10:31 infrastructure hearings.
0:10:32 And he was like,
0:10:33 so what should the rules
0:10:34 of the internet be
0:10:35 once it’s not run by
0:10:37 the military and research institutions?
0:10:39 And Clinton’s IP czar,
0:10:40 a guy called Bruce Lehman,
0:10:41 still alive,
0:10:42 still kicking around,
0:10:45 went to Gore with this proposal.
0:10:46 We should make it illegal
0:10:47 to reverse engineer things,
0:10:48 even if you do so
0:10:49 for a lawful purpose.
0:10:52 And Al Gore said,
0:10:53 this is a terrible idea.
0:10:54 So Bruce Lehman
0:10:56 gave up on Al Gore.
0:10:58 He went to the United Nations
0:10:59 to an agency called
0:11:00 the World Intellectual
0:11:00 Property Organization.
0:11:02 He got them to build this
0:11:03 into two treaties
0:11:04 that are called
0:11:05 the Internet Treaties.
0:11:06 And then he came back
0:11:07 to Congress and he said,
0:11:08 we now have a treaty obligation
0:11:10 to make this a law.
0:11:11 In his own words,
0:11:12 he said he did this
0:11:13 to do an end run
0:11:14 around Congress.
0:11:15 He knew that this was unpopular.
0:11:18 And he got it to happen.
0:11:20 And then because the U.S.
0:11:21 had now agreed
0:11:23 to hobble its own businesses,
0:11:24 because you have to understand,
0:11:25 you know,
0:11:27 if someone’s using
0:11:28 these kinds of software locks,
0:11:29 like to stop you
0:11:30 from refilling
0:11:30 an ink cartridge,
0:11:31 and then they’re raising
0:11:32 the price of ink,
0:11:34 it’s natural that someone else
0:11:35 would want to enter the market
0:11:36 and offer cheaper ink.
0:11:37 And that’s like
0:11:38 a business opportunity.
0:11:39 And so the U.S.
0:11:39 had said,
0:11:40 well, none of our companies
0:11:42 can take advantage
0:11:43 of this business opportunity.
0:11:44 So they said,
0:11:45 what if another country’s
0:11:46 companies do this?
0:11:46 Right?
0:11:47 What if Canada
0:11:49 starts making the tools
0:11:50 to unlock printers
0:11:51 and selling printer ink?
0:11:52 And I use printer ink
0:11:53 because it’s the most expensive
0:11:54 fluid you can buy
0:11:54 as a civilian
0:11:56 without a special permit.
0:11:57 It’s $10,000 a gallon.
0:11:58 You could print
0:11:59 your grocery list
0:12:00 for less
0:12:01 if you use the semen
0:12:01 of a Kentucky Derby
0:12:02 winning stallion.
0:12:03 Right?
0:12:05 So, you know,
0:12:06 this is like a
0:12:07 pretty obvious
0:12:08 market opportunity.
0:12:08 You know,
0:12:09 it’s a 10-foot pile of shit.
0:12:10 Someone’s going to build
0:12:11 an 11-foot ladder.
0:12:12 So the U.S.
0:12:13 went around
0:12:13 to every one
0:12:14 of its trading partners
0:12:14 and said,
0:12:15 we will impose tariffs
0:12:16 on you
0:12:17 unless you enact
0:12:18 a law like this.
0:12:19 So Canada got it
0:12:20 in 2012.
0:12:22 The EU got it
0:12:22 in 2001
0:12:23 with the copyright directive.
0:12:25 Mexico got it
0:12:25 in 2020
0:12:28 with the U.S.-Mexico-Canada agreement,
0:12:29 the sequel to NAFTA
0:12:30 that Trump negotiated.
0:12:31 So you see this now
0:12:32 just all over the world
0:12:33 that everyone’s just agreed
0:12:35 that if you can extract rents
0:12:36 with a software lock,
0:12:37 no one’s allowed
0:12:38 to unlock it
0:12:38 even if
0:12:40 it would otherwise
0:12:40 be legal,
0:12:41 even if otherwise
0:12:42 that would be
0:12:43 a totally legitimate
0:12:43 thing to do.
0:12:45 So are we just
0:12:47 talking about
0:12:47 platforms here?
0:12:48 I mean,
0:12:50 or do you,
0:12:51 should we think of this
0:12:52 as a more
0:12:54 general period of decline?
0:12:54 In other words,
0:12:56 is everything kind of
0:12:57 sort of inshittifying?
0:12:58 Well, here’s the thing.
0:13:00 This is the bad news
0:13:01 about inshittification
0:13:02 is it’s coming
0:13:03 for every sector,
0:13:03 right?
0:13:04 If Jeff Bezos
0:13:05 wants to change the prices
0:13:06 on Amazon Fresh,
0:13:07 he can move a slider.
0:13:08 If he wants to change
0:13:09 the prices at Whole Foods,
0:13:10 he needs an army of kids
0:13:11 on roller skates
0:13:12 with pricing guns.
0:13:13 But now we’re seeing
0:13:14 the rise and rise
0:13:15 of digital shelf tags,
0:13:16 e-ink shelf tags.
0:13:19 And so you can see
0:13:19 how inshittification
0:13:20 will get everywhere
0:13:21 because everything
0:13:22 is being digitized
0:13:23 and therefore platformized.
0:13:24 And this is twiddling?
0:13:25 Is this where you’re
0:13:26 describing how the prices
0:13:27 Yeah, that’s twiddling.
0:13:28 Yeah.
0:13:29 It was like when
0:13:30 Wendy’s announced
0:13:30 that they were going
0:13:30 to charge you more
0:13:32 for burgers on busy days
0:13:33 at the drive-thru
0:13:34 and do surge-priced burgers,
0:13:34 right?
0:13:36 These are always trial balloons.
0:13:37 We don’t know
0:13:38 if they’re doing them or not.
0:13:40 So is it happening?
0:13:40 Maybe.
0:13:41 There’s a lot of stuff
0:13:42 that happens in the shadows.
0:13:44 Could it happen
0:13:44 100%?
0:13:45 Would we know
0:13:46 if it was happening?
0:13:47 Not unless we make it legal
0:13:48 to reverse engineer
0:13:49 these apps
0:13:50 and look inside of them
0:13:51 so that we can see
0:13:52 what’s going on.
0:13:53 So are we just
0:13:54 in this weird era
0:13:56 of techno-feudalism
0:13:57 where platforms
0:13:57 aren’t really competing,
0:13:59 aren’t really acting
0:14:00 like normal businesses
0:14:01 that they’re instead
0:14:05 just rent-extracting landlords?
0:14:07 It’s definitely the case
0:14:07 that that’s what
0:14:08 they aspire to.
0:14:09 And again,
0:14:10 like that’s not new,
0:14:10 right?
0:14:11 Capitalists always say,
0:14:12 oh, we love competition
0:14:13 while they’re on their way up
0:14:14 and then when they reach
0:14:15 the apex,
0:14:15 they’re like,
0:14:16 no, no, no, no, no.
0:14:18 We have to prevent you
0:14:19 from loading software
0:14:19 of your choosing
0:14:21 and collect 30 cents
0:14:21 at every dollar
0:14:24 that the app makers make.
0:14:25 But not for us.
0:14:25 It’s for you.
0:14:27 It’s to protect you
0:14:29 because you might download
0:14:29 malicious software
0:14:31 unless we get to decide
0:14:31 what you can-
0:14:32 That’s very sweet.
0:14:33 …what you can download.
0:14:35 So, you know,
0:14:37 I think that there is
0:14:38 that aspect of things
0:14:40 and I think that identifying
0:14:41 this as a systemic problem
0:14:41 is really important.
0:14:43 One of the things
0:14:44 that early reviews
0:14:46 of the book said,
0:14:47 which is, I think,
0:14:48 totally right,
0:14:49 is it was frustrating
0:14:50 that there weren’t
0:14:51 any individual solutions
0:14:52 at the end, right?
0:14:54 There wasn’t like 20 ways
0:14:55 you can prevent climate change
0:14:57 by recycling harder
0:14:58 at the end, right?
0:14:59 It just said,
0:15:00 these are systemic problems.
0:15:01 Here are the policy answers
0:15:03 and, you know,
0:15:05 getting policy change is hard.
0:15:06 But I’ll tell you what,
0:15:07 there is something amazing
0:15:08 that’s happened
0:15:09 in this decade.
0:15:11 So, if you ask
0:15:11 a political scientist,
0:15:12 they’ll tell you
0:15:15 that the things billionaires want
0:15:16 are what we get
0:15:18 no matter how unpopular
0:15:19 they are with the public
0:15:20 and that the corollary is true
0:15:21 that the things
0:15:22 that billionaires don’t want
0:15:23 never happen
0:15:24 no matter how much
0:15:24 the public wants them.
0:15:27 But since like 2018, 2019,
0:15:29 all over the world,
0:15:29 there has been
0:15:31 this massive surge
0:15:32 of antitrust enforcement.
0:15:34 We saw it in the EU
0:15:35 and the UK
0:15:36 and some of the EU member states
0:15:37 like France and Spain
0:15:37 and Germany,
0:15:38 Australia,
0:15:39 South Korea,
0:15:40 Japan,
0:15:41 and China
0:15:42 all brought in
0:15:43 these big,
0:15:44 you know,
0:15:45 sweeping,
0:15:46 ambitious
0:15:48 antitrust enforcement actions
0:15:49 and new antitrust laws,
0:15:51 not just about tech,
0:15:52 but especially about tech.
0:15:54 And I don’t think anyone
0:15:56 has an explanation for this.
0:15:57 From a political science
0:15:58 perspective,
0:15:59 it’s like the law of gravity
0:16:00 was repealed.
0:16:01 It’s like water started
0:16:02 flowing uphill.
0:16:03 And what’s even weirder
0:16:04 is no one seems to have noticed
0:16:05 because it is pretty wonky.
0:16:06 And they’re like,
0:16:06 well,
0:16:06 I guess,
0:16:09 I guess something changed.
0:16:10 But what changed,
0:16:11 I think,
0:16:13 is that enforcers
0:16:14 and politicians
0:16:15 started to recognize
0:16:16 that there is an
0:16:17 inchoate
0:16:19 but undeniable
0:16:20 and unavoidable
0:16:21 public rage
0:16:22 at the abuses
0:16:23 of corporate power.
0:16:26 and it created
0:16:27 a kind of political tailwind
0:16:27 where people
0:16:28 who maybe
0:16:29 they’ve been around
0:16:30 for a long time
0:16:31 saying this is
0:16:32 what we need to do
0:16:34 suddenly found
0:16:34 that they were like
0:16:36 pushing on an open door
0:16:36 because there was
0:16:37 so much public sentiment
0:16:38 in favor of it.
0:16:39 And,
0:16:41 you know,
0:16:43 I’m trying to say
0:16:44 that there’s room
0:16:44 for hope here.
0:16:45 Like,
0:16:47 it is terrible
0:16:47 to think that
0:16:48 the only way
0:16:49 we can resolve this
0:16:50 is by getting involved
0:16:51 in civics.
0:16:52 You know,
0:16:53 the Electronic Frontier Foundation,
0:16:54 we have this
0:16:55 national network
0:16:56 of local groups,
0:16:57 the Electronic Frontier Alliance,
0:16:59 EFA.EFF.org.
0:17:00 You can get involved
0:17:00 in your community.
0:17:02 There’s political parties,
0:17:03 there’s other
0:17:04 charitable nonprofit groups
0:17:05 that are involved in this.
0:17:06 And it’s frustrating
0:17:06 to say,
0:17:06 oh,
0:17:07 I’m going to have to go
0:17:07 to meetings
0:17:10 and like call my congressman
0:17:11 and try and do something
0:17:13 about politics
0:17:13 in a country
0:17:14 where the rule of law
0:17:15 is collapsing.
0:17:16 That’s depressing.
0:17:17 Can’t I just buy something?
0:17:19 But I don’t think
0:17:20 you can just buy something.
0:17:21 If that were the case,
0:17:22 we’d be buying it.
0:17:38 Support for the gray area
0:17:39 comes from Bombas.
0:17:41 The kids are back in school,
0:17:43 vacations are over,
0:17:44 and we’re entering
0:17:45 into the fourth fiscal quarter,
0:17:47 the cozy quarter,
0:17:49 which means it’s time
0:17:50 to slide into some Bombas.
0:17:52 They have all the comfy socks,
0:17:53 slippers,
0:17:54 t-shirts,
0:17:54 and underwear
0:17:56 you’re going to need this fall.
0:17:58 It’s always underwear season
0:17:58 for me,
0:18:00 so I tried Bombas myself.
0:18:02 And I’m just telling you
0:18:02 the truth,
0:18:05 I have been on the Bombas sock
0:18:06 and underwear train
0:18:08 for a long time now.
0:18:09 They hooked me up,
0:18:09 I tried them.
0:18:10 They’re my favorites
0:18:12 because they’re more comfortable
0:18:13 than the other brands
0:18:14 I’ve tried.
0:18:15 And I’m just going to
0:18:16 keep rocking them
0:18:17 until I get out
0:18:18 of the sock
0:18:19 and underwear business.
0:18:20 Anyway,
0:18:22 for every item you purchase,
0:18:23 Bombas donates one
0:18:24 to someone in need.
0:18:24 Plus,
0:18:25 they’re available
0:18:26 for international shipping
0:18:28 to more than 200 countries,
0:18:29 even Wallace and Futuna,
0:18:30 in case you’re already
0:18:31 thinking about holiday gifts
0:18:32 for that cousin
0:18:32 in Matu Utu.
0:18:33 You can go to
0:18:34 bombas.com
0:18:35 slash gray area
0:18:37 and use code gray area
0:18:38 for 20% off
0:18:39 your first purchase.
0:18:41 That’s B-O-M-B-A-S
0:18:41 dot com
0:18:43 slash gray area.
0:18:44 Code gray area
0:18:45 at checkout.
0:18:50 What makes a bank
0:18:51 more than a bank?
0:18:53 It’s more than products,
0:18:54 apps,
0:18:55 ATMs.
0:18:56 It’s being there
0:18:57 when you need them,
0:18:59 with real people
0:19:00 and real conversations.
0:19:01 Let’s face it,
0:19:02 life gets real.
0:19:04 RBC is the bank
0:19:05 that we Canadians
0:19:06 turn to for advice
0:19:08 because at the end of the day,
0:19:09 that’s what you deserve.
0:19:10 A track record,
0:19:11 not some trend.
0:19:13 Your idea of banking
0:19:13 that’s personal
0:19:14 happens here.
0:19:15 RBC.
0:19:16 Ideas happen here.
0:19:20 Hi, this is Kara Swisher,
0:19:22 host of On With Kara Swisher.
0:19:23 This week on my podcast,
0:19:24 On With Kara Swisher,
0:19:26 I talk with Vice President
0:19:27 Kamala Harris
0:19:28 about her new book,
0:19:29 107 Days,
0:19:30 as well as
0:19:31 The Weaponization
0:19:32 of the Department of Justice,
0:19:33 the tech industry’s
0:19:34 rightward lurch,
0:19:35 and how she’s planning
0:19:36 to fight against
0:19:37 Trump’s march
0:19:38 toward autocracy.
0:19:39 We take it live
0:19:40 at the Warner Theater,
0:19:42 which is just a stone’s
0:19:43 throw away
0:19:44 from the White House
0:19:45 where Donald Trump
0:19:45 now lives.
0:19:46 Have a listen.
0:19:48 I don’t believe
0:19:49 that the people
0:19:50 who are flattering
0:19:51 Donald Trump,
0:19:53 who are offering
0:19:54 him favors,
0:19:56 necessarily believe
0:19:58 in what he is doing
0:19:59 or believe it is right.
0:20:01 But they want power.
0:20:03 And that’s part of
0:20:04 what we are dealing
0:20:05 with right now.
0:20:06 They want power
0:20:07 and they’re not willing
0:20:08 to compromise
0:20:09 their power
0:20:11 or access to power
0:20:11 for the sake
0:20:13 of the Constitution
0:20:14 and our democracy.
0:20:15 listen to the whole
0:20:16 conversation
0:20:17 on On with Kara Swisher
0:20:18 on YouTube
0:20:18 or wherever
0:20:20 you get your podcasts.
0:20:29 I want to do
0:20:30 something here
0:20:32 because I want
0:20:33 to make sure
0:20:35 that this is
0:20:36 not abstract.
0:20:37 And so if you
0:20:38 don’t mind,
0:20:39 I want to walk
0:20:40 through a few
0:20:41 of these platforms
0:20:42 and sort of
0:20:44 how specifically
0:20:45 they’ve
0:20:45 inshittified.
0:20:46 And we can
0:20:47 skip over Google
0:20:48 because I think
0:20:48 you’ve already
0:20:50 explained how
0:20:51 that happened.
0:20:52 And I guess,
0:20:52 you know,
0:20:52 Facebook,
0:20:53 Amazon,
0:20:54 Apple,
0:20:54 Twitter,
0:20:54 I mean,
0:20:56 this is the
0:20:56 vanguard
0:20:58 of inshittification.
0:20:59 And we can
0:21:00 start with Facebook
0:21:01 because it really
0:21:02 is,
0:21:02 as you say
0:21:02 in the book,
0:21:03 an exquisite
0:21:04 example.
0:21:05 Poster child.
0:21:06 Yeah.
0:21:07 How did they
0:21:07 inshittify?
0:21:08 Yeah.
0:21:10 So when Facebook
0:21:11 kicked off,
0:21:11 first they were
0:21:12 only available
0:21:13 to college kids,
0:21:13 right?
0:21:14 But then they
0:21:15 decided to open
0:21:15 up to anyone,
0:21:16 not just people
0:21:17 with a .edu
0:21:18 address.
0:21:18 And they had a
0:21:19 problem,
0:21:19 which was that
0:21:20 everyone who
0:21:21 wanted social media
0:21:22 and wasn’t an
0:21:23 American college kid
0:21:23 was on another
0:21:24 service called
0:21:24 MySpace.
0:21:26 And so they
0:21:27 made those people
0:21:27 a pitch.
0:21:27 They said,
0:21:29 like, you know,
0:21:30 you love your
0:21:31 friends on MySpace,
0:21:31 but has it occurred
0:21:33 to you that MySpace
0:21:34 is owned by an
0:21:34 evil,
0:21:34 crapulent,
0:21:35 senescent
0:21:36 Australian billionaire
0:21:37 named Rupert Murdoch
0:21:38 who spies on you
0:21:38 with every hour
0:21:39 that God sends.
0:21:40 Come to Facebook
0:21:42 and not only
0:21:43 will we never
0:21:43 spy on you,
0:21:44 which was their
0:21:45 initial pitch,
0:21:46 but also we’re
0:21:46 only going to show
0:21:47 you the things
0:21:48 you asked to see.
0:21:48 No ads,
0:21:49 no boosted content,
0:21:51 just the people
0:21:52 you subscribe to,
0:21:53 the things they
0:21:53 post in reverse
0:21:54 chrono.
0:21:56 So users pile in
0:21:57 and they lock
0:21:57 themselves in
0:21:58 through something
0:21:59 called the
0:21:59 collective action
0:22:00 problem.
0:22:01 So you love
0:22:01 your friends,
0:22:02 you hate Mark
0:22:03 Zuckerberg,
0:22:03 but your friends
0:22:04 are a pain in
0:22:05 the ass and you
0:22:05 can’t even agree
0:22:06 on what board
0:22:06 game to play
0:22:07 this weekend.
0:22:08 So there’s no
0:22:08 way you can
0:22:09 agree on when
0:22:10 it’s time to leave
0:22:11 Facebook and go
0:22:12 somewhere else.
0:22:13 The more users
0:22:13 there are on
0:22:14 Facebook,
0:22:15 the worse that
0:22:15 collective action
0:22:16 problem becomes
0:22:17 and the higher
0:22:18 the switching costs,
0:22:18 right?
0:22:19 The cost of
0:22:20 leaving and going
0:22:20 somewhere else
0:22:20 becomes.
0:22:21 That’s the thing.
0:22:22 So once we’re locked
0:22:23 in, they start to
0:22:24 twiddle and they
0:22:25 start to turn the
0:22:26 dial to make
0:22:26 things worse for
0:22:27 us, to make
0:22:27 things better for
0:22:28 business customers.
0:22:29 This is stage two.
0:22:31 They go to the
0:22:31 advertisers and they
0:22:32 say, hey, if you
0:22:33 give us remarkably
0:22:34 small amounts of
0:22:35 money, we will
0:22:36 target ads to them
0:22:37 with exquisite
0:22:37 fidelity.
0:22:38 You give us a
0:22:39 dollar to show an
0:22:40 ad to a specific
0:22:40 kind of user,
0:22:41 that’s the user
0:22:41 that’s going to
0:22:42 see it and they’ll
0:22:43 definitely see it.
0:22:44 And they go to the
0:22:44 publishers and they
0:22:46 say, put short
0:22:47 excerpts from your
0:22:48 own website on
0:22:50 Facebook, put a
0:22:50 link in to your
0:22:51 own website.
0:22:53 We will non-consensually
0:22:54 cram it into the
0:22:55 eyeballs of people
0:22:55 who never asked to
0:22:56 see it.
0:22:57 Some of them will
0:22:57 click the link and
0:22:58 you’ll get a free
0:22:58 traffic funnel.
0:23:01 And so the business
0:23:01 customers, they get
0:23:02 locked to the
0:23:03 platform too.
0:23:04 And this is a
0:23:05 relationship economist
0:23:07 called monopsony.
0:23:09 So monopoly is when
0:23:10 you have a powerful
0:23:12 seller, but monopsony
0:23:12 is when you have a
0:23:14 powerful buyer.
0:23:15 And monopsony is a
0:23:16 lot easier to attain.
0:23:17 Like you can imagine
0:23:18 that if 20% of
0:23:19 your business went
0:23:20 away overnight, you
0:23:21 could very easily
0:23:21 fail.
0:23:23 Whereas as a
0:23:24 consumer, like if
0:23:25 the merchant that
0:23:27 represents 20% of the
0:23:27 market went out of
0:23:28 business overnight, you
0:23:29 could just change
0:23:30 suppliers.
0:23:30 You could go
0:23:31 somewhere else.
0:23:32 And so these
0:23:33 companies get very
0:23:34 locked into Facebook
0:23:34 too.
0:23:35 And then Facebook
0:23:36 starts to twiddle
0:23:36 again.
0:23:37 They make things
0:23:38 worse for them.
0:23:39 Ad fidelity goes way
0:23:40 down.
0:23:41 Ad fraud goes way
0:23:41 up.
0:23:43 And ad prices go
0:23:43 way up.
0:23:44 Procter & Gamble
0:23:45 killed off a $200
0:23:47 million per year
0:23:48 programmatic ad
0:23:49 spend.
0:23:50 This is programmatic
0:23:50 ads.
0:23:51 It’s the industry
0:23:52 euphemism for a
0:23:53 surveillance ad.
0:23:54 So they kill this
0:23:55 ad spend off.
0:23:57 They see a $0 drop
0:23:58 in sales because to
0:23:59 a first approximation,
0:24:00 $200 million was
0:24:01 disappearing down the
0:24:02 fraud hole.
0:24:03 Facebook is drawing
0:24:06 out the value from
0:24:08 us, from advertisers,
0:24:08 from publishers.
0:24:10 Our feeds dwindle to
0:24:12 this kind of homeopathic
0:24:12 residue of things that
0:24:14 we ask to see and are
0:24:14 just filled up with
0:24:15 stuff that people are
0:24:16 paying to show us.
0:24:18 Advertisers are losing
0:24:19 money hand over fist.
0:24:21 Publishers are also
0:24:22 seeing their fortunes
0:24:22 decline.
0:24:23 And then they’re in this
0:24:24 like very brittle
0:24:26 equilibrium because the
0:24:27 difference between I hate
0:24:28 this place but I can’t
0:24:29 seem to stop visiting it
0:24:31 and I hate this place and
0:24:32 I’m never going back to
0:24:32 it.
0:24:33 It’s just razor thin.
0:24:37 So Facebook, in order to
0:24:39 make money from the two
0:24:40 groups it was selling to
0:24:42 publishers and advertisers
0:24:44 decide to make the
0:24:45 experience of using the
0:24:46 platform noticeably
0:24:48 shittier, objectively
0:24:48 shittier.
0:24:49 Is that just the
0:24:51 arithmetic of this thing?
0:24:52 Does it have to be that
0:24:53 zero sum?
0:24:54 Could they have done this
0:24:56 without degrading the
0:24:57 user experience?
0:24:59 Well, they would have
0:25:00 made less money, right?
0:25:02 So every post they don’t
0:25:03 show you from someone
0:25:04 that you’re following is
0:25:05 a space that they can
0:25:06 fill with an ad or
0:25:07 boosted content.
0:25:08 So I’m not saying that
0:25:10 firms don’t want to
0:25:12 maximize revenue but what
0:25:13 I’m saying is that the
0:25:14 policy environment made it
0:25:15 easy for them to
0:25:16 maximize revenue at your
0:25:17 expense, right?
0:25:18 There is no like, you
0:25:20 know, guy who came down
0:25:21 off a mountain on two
0:25:22 stone tablets with this
0:25:22 business plan.
0:25:24 These were policy
0:25:26 choices and so, you
0:25:27 know, when Facebook was
0:25:29 like luring away MySpace
0:25:31 users, those users, they
0:25:32 had the same collective
0:25:32 action problem.
0:25:33 They had the same
0:25:34 switching costs.
0:25:36 The difference was that
0:25:37 Facebook wasn’t
0:25:37 constrained in the same
0:25:38 way by IP law.
0:25:40 So if you were a MySpace
0:25:41 user who wanted to go to
0:25:42 Facebook, Facebook would
0:25:44 give you a bot and you
0:25:45 could give that bot your
0:25:46 login and your password
0:25:47 and then that bot would
0:25:48 go over to MySpace
0:25:49 several times a day,
0:25:51 login as you, pretend to
0:25:52 be you, grab everything
0:25:53 waiting for you, stick
0:25:53 it in your Facebook
0:25:55 feed and you could
0:25:56 reply to it and it
0:25:56 would push it back out
0:25:57 to your MySpace feed.
0:25:58 If you did that to
0:25:59 Facebook today, they’d
0:26:00 reduce you to radioactive
0:26:03 rubble and they’d use,
0:26:04 you know, tortious
0:26:05 interference with contract
0:26:06 and trademark and patent
0:26:07 and copyright claims,
0:26:08 anti-circumvention
0:26:09 claims, you know, all of
0:26:10 these things that they
0:26:12 were immunized from
0:26:13 because either the laws
0:26:14 didn’t exist or the
0:26:15 precedents hadn’t been
0:26:16 set when they were going
0:26:17 to war with Rupert
0:26:17 Murdoch.
0:26:20 So I think a lot of
0:26:20 people still imagine
0:26:21 something like Amazon
0:26:25 as cheap and fast
0:26:26 and reliable
0:26:28 and thus not
0:26:29 and shittified.
0:26:31 But that is very much
0:26:32 not the case.
0:26:34 Give me the capsule
0:26:35 story here.
0:26:35 What should people know
0:26:37 about Amazon’s
0:26:38 and shittification?
0:26:40 So you may know
0:26:42 that our economy
0:26:42 is mostly consumption
0:26:43 driven, right?
0:26:44 So most of our GDP
0:26:45 comes from people
0:26:45 buying things.
0:26:47 And as wealth
0:26:48 inequality has gotten
0:26:49 worse over the last
0:26:49 couple of decades,
0:26:50 the share of people
0:26:51 who buy most
0:26:52 of the things
0:26:52 has dwindled.
0:26:54 And the vast majority
0:26:54 of those households
0:26:55 have a Prime account,
0:26:56 which means that if you
0:26:57 want to sell stuff,
0:26:58 you need to be selling
0:26:59 on Amazon.
0:27:00 And to sell on Amazon,
0:27:02 well, you can just
0:27:03 set up a storefront,
0:27:03 but if you want people
0:27:05 to find your products
0:27:06 when they search for it,
0:27:07 even if they search
0:27:08 by name for your product,
0:27:10 you need to opt into
0:27:11 Amazon’s most expensive
0:27:12 programs.
0:27:13 So there’s things like
0:27:14 Fulfillment by Amazon
0:27:15 and Prime,
0:27:16 but there’s also
0:27:18 Amazon’s so-called
0:27:19 advertising business.
0:27:19 Now, it’s funny,
0:27:20 when I wrote the book,
0:27:22 the advertising business
0:27:23 was ringing up about
0:27:24 $32 billion a year,
0:27:25 but it’s up over
0:27:27 $50 billion in 2024.
0:27:29 So it’s growing really fast
0:27:30 for Amazon.
0:27:30 $50 billion.
0:27:30 Yeah.
0:27:33 And so we call this
0:27:33 an advertising business.
0:27:34 It’s not advertising.
0:27:36 If you are old,
0:27:37 you will recognize
0:27:38 the word payola.
0:27:39 And that’s what it is.
0:27:40 It’s payment
0:27:40 for search placement.
0:27:42 So if you want to be
0:27:43 at the top of the search
0:27:44 results on Amazon,
0:27:45 you have to outbid
0:27:47 other people bidding
0:27:48 for that search result.
0:27:50 And what that means
0:27:50 is that the person
0:27:51 who gets to the top
0:27:52 is not the person
0:27:53 with the best price
0:27:54 or the best match.
0:27:54 It’s the person
0:27:55 with the deepest pockets.
0:27:56 And oftentimes,
0:27:58 the way that you
0:27:59 can afford the ads
0:28:01 is by spending less money
0:28:01 on product quality
0:28:02 and charging more.
0:28:04 So the first result
0:28:05 on average
0:28:05 on an Amazon
0:28:06 search results page
0:28:09 is 29% more expensive
0:28:10 than the best result.
0:28:11 The top row
0:28:13 is 25% more expensive
0:28:14 than the best result.
0:28:15 And on average,
0:28:16 the best results
0:28:17 is about 17 places down.
0:28:18 17?
0:28:18 Yeah.
0:28:19 Is that normally
0:28:19 on page two?
0:28:20 And this is important
0:28:21 for people to know.
0:28:22 Yeah, it was well down
0:28:22 into page two.
0:28:24 And it’s not exactly 17.
0:28:24 It’d be nice
0:28:25 if it were exactly 17.
0:28:26 You could just get
0:28:26 a little browser plug
0:28:27 and that threw away
0:28:28 the first 16 results.
0:28:28 So just skip
0:28:29 to the fucking second page.
0:28:31 It floats around there, right?
0:28:33 So, and there’s lots of ways
0:28:34 that they can do this.
0:28:35 Like, you know,
0:28:36 you see merchants
0:28:37 doing things like
0:28:37 selling batteries
0:28:38 in four packs
0:28:39 instead of 10 packs.
0:28:40 So if you search by price,
0:28:41 they’re the best price,
0:28:42 but their actual unit price
0:28:43 is much higher.
0:28:44 And Amazon knows
0:28:45 the unit size.
0:28:47 You could sort by unit size,
0:28:48 except it doesn’t exist.
0:28:50 Now, the other thing
0:28:51 that Amazon does
0:28:51 is they have
0:28:52 what’s called
0:28:54 a most favored nation policy.
0:28:56 So MFN policies
0:28:57 say that you have to offer
0:28:58 your best price
0:28:59 on this platform.
0:29:00 You can’t charge less
0:29:01 somewhere else.
0:29:03 So this is a thing
0:29:03 that like, say,
0:29:05 pharmacy benefit managers
0:29:05 do a lot.
0:29:06 This is why we have
0:29:07 very high drug prices
0:29:08 even in generics
0:29:10 is because of MFN pricing.
0:29:12 And for Amazon sellers,
0:29:13 it means that
0:29:14 if you raise your price
0:29:16 to recover these junk fees,
0:29:18 but when you do that
0:29:19 because of most favored nation,
0:29:20 you have to raise prices elsewhere.
0:29:22 So Walmart, Target,
0:29:24 mom and pop stores,
0:29:25 even your own factory store
0:29:27 has to price match Amazon.
0:29:28 And you may have gone
0:29:29 and like seen,
0:29:30 you know, I don’t know,
0:29:31 I have a cool set
0:29:31 of waterproof headphones
0:29:32 I swim with
0:29:33 and listen to audio books
0:29:34 when I swim.
0:29:37 If you go to the maker’s store,
0:29:38 they’re just selling
0:29:40 an Amazon link.
0:29:41 They have an Amazon affiliate link
0:29:44 because then they get like
0:29:45 whatever 3% back
0:29:45 from their affiliate
0:29:47 deal with Amazon.
0:29:49 They’re not even selling them to you
0:29:51 because they can’t charge less
0:29:53 than they charge Amazon.
0:29:55 In the case of Facebook,
0:29:57 the answer to the question,
0:29:58 well, nobody’s putting
0:29:59 a gun to your head.
0:30:00 You don’t have to use Facebook.
0:30:01 You could leave.
0:30:02 And the reply is,
0:30:03 well, yeah,
0:30:04 but the social costs
0:30:05 are pretty high.
0:30:07 What is the answer
0:30:08 to that objection
0:30:09 in the case of Amazon?
0:30:11 You don’t have to use Amazon,
0:30:12 right?
0:30:13 Yeah.
0:30:14 So Amazon has a lot
0:30:15 of different methods
0:30:16 for locking you in.
0:30:17 So in their digital assets,
0:30:18 it’s just digital rights management.
0:30:19 Every audio book,
0:30:20 every e-book,
0:30:21 every video you buy
0:30:22 permanently locked
0:30:23 to Amazon’s platform.
0:30:23 You quit Amazon,
0:30:24 you lose the media.
0:30:25 So that’s just like
0:30:26 you can put a dollar figure
0:30:28 on those switching costs,
0:30:28 right?
0:30:29 That’s a big piece of it.
0:30:31 Amazon gets you to buy
0:30:32 your shipping a year in advance.
0:30:33 That’s what Prime is,
0:30:34 right?
0:30:36 And so there’s this
0:30:38 kind of economic rationality
0:30:39 if you’ve already pre-bought
0:30:40 a year’s worth of something
0:30:41 to use that thing.
0:30:43 And then in Amazon’s
0:30:43 digital businesses,
0:30:44 they want them all
0:30:45 to be subscriptions.
0:30:47 And so, you know,
0:30:49 if you’re an Audible subscriber
0:30:50 as opposed to someone
0:30:50 who buys the occasional
0:30:51 audio book on Audible,
0:30:53 the book you want to listen
0:30:54 to this month,
0:30:55 you’ve already paid for
0:30:56 because you bought a book
0:30:57 every month.
0:30:59 And so you’d be nuts
0:31:00 to go and pay,
0:31:00 you know,
0:31:01 there’s some really good
0:31:02 Amazon competitors
0:31:03 like Libro.fm,
0:31:04 which is DRM free
0:31:06 and supports local booksellers,
0:31:07 but you’re a subscriber
0:31:07 to Audible.
0:31:08 And of course,
0:31:10 Audible uses that market power
0:31:11 to get a lot
0:31:12 of exclusivity deals.
0:31:13 So there are a lot
0:31:14 of big titles
0:31:15 that you can only get
0:31:15 on Audible.
0:31:17 There’s lots of other ways
0:31:18 they do this.
0:31:18 I mean,
0:31:18 one of the most sort
0:31:19 of pernicious ones,
0:31:20 it’s a little like
0:31:21 what Uber did
0:31:23 by selling below cost
0:31:23 for a long time
0:31:25 when they first started out
0:31:26 by locking in sellers
0:31:27 and by dominating
0:31:28 their market.
0:31:30 They have devastated
0:31:31 real world competition.
0:31:33 So with Uber,
0:31:34 you probably just can’t
0:31:35 get a cab in your city
0:31:36 unless you live in
0:31:37 one of a couple
0:31:38 big three cities
0:31:39 in America.
0:31:40 I live in Burbank,
0:31:40 California.
0:31:42 I got off a train
0:31:43 at the train station
0:31:44 and there was no cabs
0:31:45 in the cab rank.
0:31:46 There was no one
0:31:47 answering the phone
0:31:47 at the cab company.
0:31:48 There’s only 12 cabs
0:31:49 left in Burbank.
0:31:51 The bus service
0:31:51 on Sundays
0:31:52 had been ended
0:31:53 because everyone
0:31:53 took Uber
0:31:55 and then the Ubers
0:31:56 were only available
0:31:57 as an Uber Black
0:31:58 and it was $96
0:31:59 to go a mile
0:32:00 and a half to my place,
0:32:02 but it was 115 degrees out
0:32:02 and I had a suitcase
0:32:04 with me, right?
0:32:04 So that’s like,
0:32:05 that’s, you know,
0:32:06 yeah, you could do
0:32:07 other things.
0:32:07 You could walk,
0:32:09 you could call
0:32:10 a Los Angeles cab
0:32:10 and see if they’ll
0:32:12 dispatch one to Burbank.
0:32:13 You could, you know,
0:32:14 there are alternatives,
0:32:16 but the alternatives suck.
0:32:17 And so with Amazon,
0:32:18 there’s a lot of stuff
0:32:19 it’s just really hard
0:32:19 to find
0:32:20 if you’re not buying
0:32:21 on Amazon
0:32:21 because your local
0:32:23 merchants can’t compete.
0:32:24 I use it
0:32:24 and I hate myself
0:32:25 every time I hit click,
0:32:28 but I’m going to do it again.
0:32:29 It’s not where
0:32:30 you’re shopping, right?
0:32:31 Like, the thing
0:32:32 that Amazon wants to do,
0:32:33 the thing that these
0:32:33 tech bosses want to do
0:32:35 is they want to convince us
0:32:36 that the only way
0:32:37 to arrange these things
0:32:37 is the way
0:32:39 that they exist today.
0:32:40 Like, that’s a kind
0:32:41 of Thatcherism, right?
0:32:42 There is no alternative.
0:32:43 You can absolutely
0:32:45 peel these offerings apart
0:32:46 and wanting to have
0:32:47 the good part
0:32:48 of these services,
0:32:49 your friends,
0:32:50 a reliable phone,
0:32:52 a place where you search
0:32:53 to find everything
0:32:54 you want to buy,
0:32:55 that’s not a sin, right?
0:32:57 Like, it’s not like
0:32:58 you’re taking that extra time
0:32:59 that you’re scoring
0:33:00 from that
0:33:01 and using it to, like,
0:33:03 hunt spotted owls, right?
0:33:03 You’re, like,
0:33:04 using it to live your life.
0:33:06 And, you know,
0:33:08 Zephyr Teachout,
0:33:10 the great antitrust campaigner
0:33:11 and law professor
0:33:12 who ran for governor
0:33:12 of New York
0:33:13 a few years ago,
0:33:14 in her book,
0:33:14 Break Them Up,
0:33:15 she’s got this section
0:33:16 in the back
0:33:16 where she’s like,
0:33:18 stop worrying so much
0:33:19 about where you shop.
0:33:21 Like, if there’s a big protest
0:33:22 down at the Amazon warehouse
0:33:23 and you miss it
0:33:23 because you’re just
0:33:24 driving around
0:33:26 looking for an artisanal
0:33:27 stationary supplier
0:33:28 to buy the markers
0:33:29 and the cardboard
0:33:30 to make your sign,
0:33:31 you know,
0:33:32 because you don’t want
0:33:33 to buy it on Amazon,
0:33:34 Jeff Bezos wins
0:33:35 that round, right?
0:33:37 You’re not an ambulatory wallet.
0:33:38 It’s the least effective way
0:33:39 to make changes
0:33:40 by voting with your wallets.
0:33:41 For one thing,
0:33:43 the people with the fattest wallets
0:33:43 win those elections
0:33:45 and statistically,
0:33:46 you don’t have a wallet
0:33:48 fatter than Jeff Bezos’s.
0:34:08 Confidence shouldn’t be complicated
0:34:09 and through HIMSS,
0:34:10 it doesn’t have to be.
0:34:12 You can skip the guesswork
0:34:13 and get access to care
0:34:13 that actually fits
0:34:14 your lifestyle,
0:34:15 which means care
0:34:16 that’s straightforward,
0:34:17 stress-free,
0:34:18 and designed around
0:34:18 you and your health.
0:34:20 HIMSS brings expert care
0:34:21 straight to you
0:34:23 with 100% online access
0:34:24 to personalized treatment plans
0:34:25 that put your goals first.
0:34:26 If prescribed,
0:34:27 HIMSS can give you access
0:34:28 to personalized
0:34:29 prescription treatment options
0:34:30 for ED
0:34:31 like hard mints
0:34:32 and SexRx
0:34:33 plus Climax Control.
0:34:35 HIMSS also offers access
0:34:36 to ED treatment options
0:34:37 ranging from trusted generics
0:34:39 that can cost up to 95%
0:34:40 less than brand names.
0:34:42 It’s why HIMSS puts your health
0:34:43 and your goals first
0:34:44 with real medical providers
0:34:45 making sure you get
0:34:45 what you need
0:34:46 to get results.
0:34:47 To get simple,
0:34:48 online access
0:34:49 to personalized,
0:34:49 affordable care
0:34:50 for ED,
0:34:51 hair loss,
0:34:51 weight loss,
0:34:52 and more,
0:34:53 visit HIMSS.com
0:34:54 slash gray area.
0:34:55 That’s HIMSS.com
0:34:56 slash gray area
0:34:58 for your free online visit.
0:34:59 HIMSS.com
0:35:00 slash gray area.
0:35:01 Actual price will depend
0:35:01 on product
0:35:02 and subscription plan.
0:35:03 Featured products
0:35:04 include compounded drug products
0:35:05 which the FDA does not approve
0:35:06 or verify for safety,
0:35:07 effectiveness,
0:35:07 or quality.
0:35:08 Prescription required.
0:35:09 See website for details,
0:35:10 restrictions,
0:35:11 and important safety information.
0:35:14 Your business doesn’t move
0:35:15 in a straight line.
0:35:16 Make sure your team
0:35:17 is taken care of
0:35:18 through every twist and turn
0:35:20 with Canada Life savings,
0:35:20 retirement,
0:35:22 and benefits plans.
0:35:23 Whether you want to grow your team,
0:35:25 support your employees
0:35:25 at every stage,
0:35:26 or build a workplace
0:35:28 people want to be a part of,
0:35:30 Canada Life has flexible plans
0:35:32 for companies of all sizes,
0:35:33 so it’s easy to find a solution
0:35:35 that works for you.
0:35:37 Visit CanadaLife.com
0:35:38 slash employee benefits
0:35:39 to learn more.
0:35:40 Canada Life.
0:35:41 Insurance.
0:35:42 Investments.
0:35:42 Advice.
0:35:44 When you support Movember,
0:35:46 you’re not just fundraising.
0:35:47 You’re showing up
0:35:48 for the men you love.
0:35:49 Your dad,
0:35:50 your brother,
0:35:51 your partner,
0:35:52 your friends.
0:35:54 It isn’t just a men’s issue.
0:35:55 It’s a human one.
0:35:57 That’s why Movember exists.
0:35:58 To change the face
0:35:59 of men’s health.
0:36:01 From mental health
0:36:02 and suicide prevention
0:36:03 to prostate and testicular
0:36:04 cancer research
0:36:05 and early detection,
0:36:07 Movember is tackling
0:36:08 the biggest health issues
0:36:09 facing men today.
0:36:10 Join the movement
0:36:11 and donate now
0:36:12 at Movember.com.
0:36:24 I think you’ve demonstrated
0:36:25 pretty clearly
0:36:26 how inshittification happens,
0:36:27 why it happens,
0:36:28 what it looks like.
0:36:30 I would like at least
0:36:30 to attempt
0:36:31 to say something
0:36:32 about how we might
0:36:33 reverse this.
0:36:34 Yeah.
0:36:35 You talk about
0:36:36 how we need
0:36:37 obviously strong
0:36:38 anti-trust enforcement.
0:36:40 We need actual regulation.
0:36:41 that’s got some teeth.
0:36:43 We need the ability,
0:36:45 the right to move
0:36:46 between services.
0:36:48 Workers need more leverage,
0:36:49 more power.
0:36:51 Of those four,
0:36:53 which do you see
0:36:54 as the most achievable
0:36:55 right now?
0:36:55 What is the lowest
0:36:56 hanging fruit
0:36:58 we could go after first?
0:37:00 Well, in the U.S.,
0:37:00 you know,
0:37:02 we had for a while
0:37:03 in the Trump movement
0:37:05 some antitrust fighters.
0:37:07 People like Ted Cruz
0:37:08 who co-sponsored
0:37:08 antitrust bills
0:37:09 with Elizabeth Warren.
0:37:11 you had J.D. Vance
0:37:12 who called himself
0:37:13 a conservative
0:37:14 for Lena Kahn
0:37:14 who was the head
0:37:15 of Biden’s
0:37:16 antitrust division
0:37:17 and Matt Gaetz.
0:37:19 And those people
0:37:21 have either changed
0:37:21 their tune
0:37:22 or kind of
0:37:23 disappeared off the scene.
0:37:25 These days,
0:37:26 as with so much
0:37:27 in the Trump system,
0:37:28 it’s very transactional,
0:37:28 right?
0:37:29 If you want to get approval
0:37:31 for your broadcast merger,
0:37:32 you take Jimmy Kimmel
0:37:33 off the air.
0:37:34 So I’m not confident
0:37:35 about antitrust here,
0:37:37 but I’m very interested
0:37:38 in antitrust everywhere else
0:37:39 because one of the things
0:37:40 that the Trump administration
0:37:41 is doing is the thing
0:37:42 they used to accuse China
0:37:43 of doing,
0:37:44 which is using American
0:37:45 tech companies
0:37:46 to project soft power
0:37:47 around the world.
0:37:48 So you have Microsoft,
0:37:49 for example,
0:37:50 telling the EU
0:37:52 that they will not
0:37:53 and cannot guarantee them
0:37:54 that they won’t expose
0:37:55 state secrets
0:37:57 in Microsoft’s platform
0:37:59 to the US government
0:38:00 secretly
0:38:01 if they get an order
0:38:02 to do so, right?
0:38:03 And so the EU
0:38:05 is very interested
0:38:06 in getting the hell off
0:38:07 of American platforms
0:38:08 and they’re doing
0:38:09 some pretty muscular antitrust.
0:38:11 Here in the US,
0:38:13 I think tech workers
0:38:14 are waking up to the fact
0:38:15 that they are workers.
0:38:16 They’re not temporarily
0:38:17 embarrassed founders
0:38:19 or entrepreneurs in waiting
0:38:21 and that their bosses
0:38:22 don’t think of them
0:38:22 as peers,
0:38:23 that their bosses
0:38:23 think of them
0:38:25 as a problem to be managed.
0:38:27 You saw half a million layoffs
0:38:27 in the tech sector.
0:38:29 I think all the talk
0:38:31 about AI and vibe coding,
0:38:33 it’s just a PR campaign
0:38:35 to convince tech workers
0:38:35 that their jobs
0:38:36 are more precarious
0:38:37 than they used to be
0:38:38 and that they should stop
0:38:39 being so mouthy and uppity.
0:38:41 The average tech worker
0:38:42 in Silicon Valley
0:38:44 generates a million dollars
0:38:45 in revenue
0:38:46 for their employer, right?
0:38:47 And when they were
0:38:48 in short supply,
0:38:49 it was really easy
0:38:49 for them to hold
0:38:50 their employer’s feet
0:38:51 to the fire.
0:38:52 That’s not true anymore.
0:38:53 And working conditions
0:38:54 in the tech sector
0:38:55 are in free fall.
0:38:57 And we know
0:38:58 what tech bosses do
0:38:59 if they’re not afraid
0:39:00 of a worker, right?
0:39:00 We know how they treat
0:39:01 the workers they think
0:39:02 they can replace.
0:39:03 You know,
0:39:04 Tim Cook became
0:39:05 the CEO of Apple
0:39:07 by overseeing the shift
0:39:08 to overseas contract
0:39:09 manufacturing in China.
0:39:11 And so I think tech workers
0:39:12 are starting to wake up
0:39:12 to this.
0:39:13 And while it would
0:39:14 have been better
0:39:15 if they’d used their power
0:39:16 to form unions
0:39:18 five, ten years ago,
0:39:20 it’s never too late.
0:39:22 And I understand
0:39:23 that the Trump administration
0:39:25 has fired the majority
0:39:27 of National Labor
0:39:27 Review Board members
0:39:28 so that they can no longer
0:39:29 form a quorum
0:39:30 and they can no longer enforce.
0:39:32 But Trump has got
0:39:32 the causal arrow
0:39:33 going backwards.
0:39:34 He thinks that the reason
0:39:35 we have unions
0:39:36 is that we have union law.
0:39:38 But this is obviously wrong
0:39:39 and ahistorical.
0:39:41 There were illegal unions
0:39:42 long before the law
0:39:43 legalized them.
0:39:45 And the passage
0:39:46 of the National Labor
0:39:47 Relations Act
0:39:48 existed because
0:39:50 workers broke the law
0:39:52 and struck
0:39:53 and did sympathy striking
0:39:54 and maintained picket lines
0:39:56 and maintained labor discipline.
0:39:58 And the point
0:39:58 of the National Labor
0:39:59 Relations Act
0:40:00 was not just to limit
0:40:02 how bosses could relate
0:40:02 to their workers,
0:40:04 but to limit what unions
0:40:05 could do to bosses.
0:40:07 And Trump has fired the refs
0:40:08 and he thinks that
0:40:09 that means the game
0:40:10 is going to end.
0:40:11 But I think what he’s
0:40:12 going to find out
0:40:12 is that means there’s
0:40:13 no more rules.
0:40:15 And so this is a great time
0:40:16 for tech workers
0:40:18 to be getting in touch
0:40:19 with the tech solidarity
0:40:21 and the tech workers coalition
0:40:22 and thinking about
0:40:24 protecting themselves
0:40:26 by having solidarity
0:40:27 with all the other kinds
0:40:28 of workers
0:40:28 who are getting it
0:40:29 in the neck right now
0:40:31 under the Trump regime.
0:40:34 So how worried are you
0:40:36 about the long-term damage
0:40:37 the Trump administration
0:40:37 might do?
0:40:38 As we were saying,
0:40:38 you know,
0:40:39 the Biden administration
0:40:40 was pretty aggressive
0:40:41 on this front.
0:40:43 Obviously,
0:40:44 Trump is not.
0:40:46 Many of these tech overlords
0:40:46 we’re talking about
0:40:47 were sitting behind him
0:40:49 on stage at his inauguration.
0:40:51 These are his political allies.
0:40:53 How much damage is he doing?
0:40:54 Can he do?
0:40:56 Can it be undone?
0:40:58 I don’t know
0:41:00 whether it can be undone
0:41:00 here in America,
0:41:01 but, you know,
0:41:02 my friend Joey Davila says
0:41:03 when life gives you SARS,
0:41:04 you make sarsaparilla.
0:41:06 And the one thing
0:41:08 that we can say
0:41:09 about the Trump years,
0:41:10 the second Trump years,
0:41:12 is it’s changing geopolitics,
0:41:13 right?
0:41:14 The Trump tariffs
0:41:16 are a kind of rapid,
0:41:16 unscheduled,
0:41:17 mid-air disassembly
0:41:19 of the global system of trade.
0:41:20 And when I was
0:41:21 the European director
0:41:23 of the Electronic Frontier Foundation
0:41:24 working in 31 countries,
0:41:26 the biggest impediment
0:41:27 other countries had
0:41:29 to making good tech law,
0:41:30 privacy law,
0:41:32 pro-competitive law,
0:41:33 law that permitted
0:41:34 reverse engineering
0:41:35 and circumvention
0:41:35 and so on,
0:41:36 was that the U.S.
0:41:37 trade representative
0:41:37 would threaten them
0:41:38 with tariffs
0:41:40 whenever they proposed it.
0:41:41 So here we are,
0:41:42 happy Liberation Day,
0:41:42 right?
0:41:43 A deterrent only works
0:41:45 when you’re not using it.
0:41:46 Once you use it,
0:41:48 there’s no more deterrent value.
0:41:49 So, you know,
0:41:50 I’m, as I said,
0:41:50 from Canada.
0:41:52 Canada’s response
0:41:52 to the tariffs
0:41:54 has been retaliatory tariffs.
0:41:56 And Canada’s like a branch plant
0:41:57 for United States manufacturing.
0:41:58 We ship raw materials
0:41:59 here to the U.S.
0:42:00 and the U.S.
0:42:00 ships finished goods
0:42:01 back to Canada.
0:42:03 And like a 25%
0:42:04 retaliatory tariff
0:42:05 just makes things in Canada
0:42:07 more expensive for Canadians.
0:42:08 It’s like punching yourself
0:42:09 in the face really hard
0:42:10 and hoping the downstairs
0:42:10 neighbor says,
0:42:11 ouch.
0:42:12 But if Canada
0:42:14 just legalized jailbreaking,
0:42:15 right,
0:42:16 made it so that,
0:42:17 you know,
0:42:18 some people with like
0:42:19 investment capital
0:42:20 from someone who made
0:42:21 a zillion dollars
0:42:22 on the BlackBerry
0:42:23 at Research in Motion
0:42:25 can fund,
0:42:26 you know,
0:42:27 six smart kids
0:42:28 from the University of Waterloo
0:42:30 to jailbreak
0:42:31 all the games consoles
0:42:33 and start their own
0:42:34 app stores
0:42:35 for the games consoles
0:42:36 and to support
0:42:37 the software
0:42:38 so that if you’re like
0:42:39 a guy with a
0:42:40 folding table
0:42:41 at the back
0:42:41 of a dry cleaner
0:42:42 in like Ghana
0:42:43 or Belgium,
0:42:45 you pay 25 bucks
0:42:45 a month
0:42:46 to, you know,
0:42:47 stay up to date
0:42:48 with how to jailbreak
0:42:48 the consoles
0:42:49 people bring in
0:42:50 that you mod
0:42:51 so they can use
0:42:51 these third-party
0:42:52 app stores,
0:42:54 then not only
0:42:54 would Canadian
0:42:55 games companies
0:42:56 which are a big part
0:42:57 of Canada’s economy
0:42:58 sell through that
0:42:58 app store
0:43:00 and not send 30 cents
0:43:00 to Sony
0:43:02 or to Nintendo
0:43:03 or to Microsoft
0:43:05 but Canada could be
0:43:06 an export powerhouse
0:43:07 of software
0:43:08 and, you know,
0:43:09 one of the beneficiaries
0:43:10 of this is going
0:43:10 to be Americans
0:43:12 because you’re going
0:43:12 to be able to buy
0:43:13 these tools
0:43:14 anywhere you have
0:43:15 an internet connection
0:43:17 and a credit card
0:43:18 and Canada
0:43:19 need not confine
0:43:20 itself
0:43:20 to exporting
0:43:21 reasonably priced
0:43:22 pharmaceuticals
0:43:23 to America,
0:43:23 right?
0:43:24 They can export
0:43:25 the tools
0:43:26 of technological
0:43:27 self-determination
0:43:28 rather than just
0:43:29 like dunking
0:43:30 on Elon Musk
0:43:31 for throwing
0:43:31 Nazi salutes,
0:43:33 a thing that he likes
0:43:33 because he loves
0:43:34 the attention,
0:43:35 we can make it legal
0:43:36 for mechanics
0:43:37 to jailbreak Teslas
0:43:38 and give you
0:43:39 all the downloadable
0:43:39 content,
0:43:40 all the subscriptions,
0:43:41 all the software
0:43:43 updates for one price
0:43:43 without a single
0:43:45 dime going to Tesla
0:43:46 and really kick
0:43:47 Elon Musk
0:43:47 in the dongle.
0:43:48 That’s how you
0:43:49 win a trade war
0:43:50 and I think
0:43:51 that is the opportunity
0:43:52 that we’re in
0:43:52 right now
0:43:54 and I don’t know
0:43:55 what the hope is
0:43:55 for America
0:43:56 but I think
0:43:56 there’s in some
0:43:57 ways more hope
0:43:58 for the world
0:43:59 than we’ve had
0:44:00 in a long time.
0:44:02 What do you think
0:44:02 in shitification
0:44:03 is doing to our
0:44:03 politics?
0:44:05 Yeah,
0:44:05 I think that
0:44:07 when you look
0:44:07 at like
0:44:08 conspiratorialism
0:44:10 and nihilism,
0:44:11 you often find
0:44:12 a trauma story,
0:44:13 right?
0:44:13 Like why don’t
0:44:14 people think
0:44:15 vaccines are safe?
0:44:15 Well,
0:44:16 they’ll tell you,
0:44:17 I think the
0:44:17 pharma companies
0:44:19 are greedy
0:44:20 bastards who kill
0:44:21 you for a nickel
0:44:22 and I think the
0:44:23 FDA are in
0:44:23 their pockets
0:44:25 and they’ll let
0:44:25 them get away
0:44:26 with like literal
0:44:26 murder.
0:44:27 And you know,
0:44:28 if you live
0:44:29 through the opioid
0:44:30 crisis in which
0:44:31 the Sacklers made
0:44:32 over $10 billion,
0:44:34 that’s not an
0:44:35 unreasonable proposition.
0:44:36 And that
0:44:38 regulatory capture,
0:44:39 which is upstream
0:44:40 from conspiratorialism,
0:44:41 is downstream
0:44:42 from monopolization,
0:44:43 right?
0:44:44 Propolization is
0:44:44 what enables
0:44:45 regulatory capture.
0:44:46 When there’s
0:44:46 hundreds of
0:44:47 companies in a
0:44:47 sector,
0:44:48 they have lots
0:44:48 of different
0:44:49 priorities and
0:44:50 they’ll tell
0:44:50 their regulators
0:44:51 different things
0:44:52 and they will
0:44:53 fight for
0:44:54 different priorities.
0:44:55 But when you
0:44:55 get like five
0:44:56 companies,
0:44:57 they all sing
0:44:57 from the same
0:44:57 playbook.
0:44:58 They all know
0:44:58 each other.
0:45:00 And so that
0:45:01 regulatory capture
0:45:01 produces regulatory
0:45:02 failure.
0:45:03 The regulatory
0:45:04 failure produces
0:45:04 trauma and the
0:45:05 trauma makes
0:45:05 people into
0:45:06 suckers for
0:45:07 grifters who
0:45:08 say don’t get
0:45:09 a vaccine,
0:45:10 expose your
0:45:11 taint to
0:45:12 sunlight and
0:45:13 eat horse
0:45:13 paste.
0:45:14 Right?
0:45:16 And, you
0:45:16 know, our
0:45:17 politics are
0:45:18 terrible, but
0:45:19 they’re terrible
0:45:19 because we
0:45:20 can’t agree not
0:45:21 just on what’s
0:45:22 true, but how
0:45:23 we know what’s
0:45:24 true.
0:45:25 And there’s a
0:45:25 kind of liberal
0:45:26 shibboleth that
0:45:27 the way that we
0:45:28 fix this is by
0:45:28 convincing people
0:45:29 that the agencies
0:45:30 are trustworthy.
0:45:31 But I don’t
0:45:31 think that that’s
0:45:32 the answer.
0:45:32 I think we have
0:45:33 to make the
0:45:34 agencies trustworthy.
0:45:35 And the only way
0:45:36 to do that is to
0:45:37 break up the
0:45:38 industries that
0:45:38 have captured
0:45:38 them.
0:45:41 do you feel
0:45:42 that we
0:45:43 may be
0:45:43 approaching
0:45:45 something like
0:45:46 a tipping point
0:45:47 here where the
0:45:48 pendulum swings
0:45:49 back in the
0:45:49 direction of
0:45:51 consumers and
0:45:53 sanity, for
0:45:53 lack of a
0:45:54 better word?
0:45:55 So, you know,
0:45:56 the finance sector,
0:45:56 they’ve got this
0:45:57 useful law,
0:45:58 Stein’s law,
0:45:59 that says that
0:46:00 anything that can’t
0:46:00 go on forever
0:46:01 eventually stops.
0:46:04 And we are
0:46:04 reaching the
0:46:05 point of like
0:46:06 how much can be
0:46:08 extracted from
0:46:09 the economy by
0:46:10 rent seekers where
0:46:10 there’s just no
0:46:12 rent left to
0:46:12 extract.
0:46:13 So what comes
0:46:14 next, I think,
0:46:15 is up for grabs.
0:46:16 I don’t like
0:46:16 predicting things.
0:46:17 As a science
0:46:18 fiction writer, I
0:46:19 understand that
0:46:20 there are no
0:46:20 profits.
0:46:22 The future is not
0:46:22 predictable.
0:46:23 It’s up for grabs.
0:46:25 And so what I do
0:46:26 is I look at this
0:46:27 looming crisis and
0:46:29 I say, what
0:46:30 opportunity exists in
0:46:31 that crisis and
0:46:32 what risk is in
0:46:33 that crisis.
0:46:34 And the risk is a
0:46:35 descent into total
0:46:36 nihilism.
0:46:37 And the opportunity
0:46:39 is to make people
0:46:40 understand the way
0:46:40 that their struggles
0:46:41 are connected.
0:46:42 You know, in the
0:46:42 book, I talk about
0:46:43 my friend James
0:46:44 Boyle, who’s a law
0:46:45 professor at Duke.
0:46:46 And Jamie talks
0:46:47 about how before
0:46:49 ecology entered our
0:46:51 lexicon, people
0:46:51 didn’t know they
0:46:52 were on the same
0:46:52 side.
0:46:54 You care about
0:46:54 owls.
0:46:55 I care about the
0:46:56 ozone layer.
0:46:57 It’s not immediately
0:46:58 apparent to either of
0:46:59 us that charismatic
0:47:00 nocturnal avians are
0:47:01 connected to the
0:47:02 gaseous composition
0:47:02 of the upper
0:47:03 atmosphere.
0:47:04 But the term ecology
0:47:05 makes us understand
0:47:06 that we are on the
0:47:07 same side, even if we
0:47:08 have different ways of
0:47:09 expressing it.
0:47:10 And I think the
0:47:11 fight against
0:47:12 consolidated corporate
0:47:14 power is reaching a
0:47:15 tipping point.
0:47:16 And what we do about it
0:47:18 next is up to us.
0:47:21 Well, for people who
0:47:22 are wondering what
0:47:23 they can do in the
0:47:23 meantime?
0:47:26 efa.eff.org, the
0:47:26 electronic frontier
0:47:27 alliance, join a
0:47:28 local group that
0:47:29 works on state and
0:47:30 local issues related
0:47:32 to digital and
0:47:33 technological self
0:47:34 determination and the
0:47:35 prevention of the
0:47:37 total transformation of
0:47:38 the internet into a
0:47:39 system for surveillance
0:47:39 and control.
0:47:41 Get involved in
0:47:42 rescuing the internet
0:47:43 and making it a fit
0:47:44 nervous system for a
0:47:45 21st century where we
0:47:46 have to contend with
0:47:48 the environmental
0:47:49 collapse, rising
0:47:50 authoritarianism,
0:47:50 fascism, and
0:47:51 genocide.
0:47:52 And we can have the
0:47:54 coordination tools to do
0:47:54 that.
0:47:54 You know, I grew up
0:47:57 wheat pasting posters to
0:47:58 telephone poles in the
0:47:59 middle of the winter in
0:48:00 Toronto with a bucket of
0:48:01 wheat paste and a
0:48:01 bicycle.
0:48:03 And I tell you what, if
0:48:03 you think you’re going to
0:48:04 organize a mass movement
0:48:06 that way, I want you to
0:48:06 try a couple of
0:48:09 overnights in sub-zero
0:48:10 weather in Toronto with a
0:48:11 bucket of wheat paste and
0:48:12 tell me what you think the
0:48:13 internet’s good for after
0:48:13 that.
0:48:16 Once again, the book is
0:48:18 called In Shittification,
0:48:20 Why Everything Suddenly
0:48:21 Got Worse and What
0:48:22 to Do About It.
0:48:25 It is as good a read as a
0:48:26 book this infuriating can
0:48:27 possibly be.
0:48:29 So thank you for that and
0:48:30 thank you for coming in.
0:48:31 Oh, I appreciate it.
0:48:32 I had a really nice time
0:48:33 talking with you.
0:48:42 All right.
0:48:43 I hope you enjoyed this
0:48:44 episode.
0:48:45 I certainly did.
0:48:47 Corey is so smart and
0:48:49 funny and just an absolute
0:48:50 wealth of knowledge on this
0:48:52 topic, so it was a delight for
0:48:53 me.
0:48:54 But as always, we want to
0:48:55 know what you think.
0:48:57 So drop us a line at the
0:49:00 gray area at vox.com or you
0:49:01 can leave us a delightful
0:49:02 message on our new voicemail
0:49:07 line at 1-800-214-5749.
0:49:08 And once you’re done with
0:49:09 that, please go ahead, rate,
0:49:11 review, and subscribe to the
0:49:11 pod.
0:49:13 This episode was produced by
0:49:15 Beth Morrissey, edited by
0:49:17 Jorge Just, engineered by
0:49:19 Erica Wong, fact-checked by
0:49:20 Melissa Hirsch, and Alex
0:49:22 Overington wrote our theme
0:49:22 music.
0:49:24 New episodes of The Gray Area
0:49:27 drop on Mondays, listen, and
0:49:27 subscribe.
0:49:29 The show is part of Vox.
0:49:30 Support Vox’s journalism by
0:49:32 joining our membership program
0:49:32 today.
0:49:35 Go to vox.com slash members to
0:49:36 sign up.
0:49:37 And if you decide to sign up
0:49:39 because of this show, let us
0:49:39 know.