How to Raise Good Men — Scott Galloway & Richard Reeves Answer Your Questions

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0:02:00 Welcome to Prop G on Masculinity, a special series where we’re joined by Richard Reeves,
0:02:05 the founding president of the American Institute for Boys and Men, and my Yoda and inspiration around all of this.
0:02:11 We’re taking your questions on all things masculinity, dating, fatherhood, identity, and everything in between.
0:02:15 Anyways, if you’d like to submit a question for next time, you can send a voice recording to officehours at propgmedia.com.
0:02:18 Again, that’s officehours at propgmedia.com.
0:02:21 Or post your question on the Scott Galloway subreddit.
0:02:23 Richard, where does this podcast find you?
0:02:27 Richard Reeves, I’m in Reykjavik, Iceland, Scott, and it’s beautiful.
0:02:28 I’m here for a conference.
0:02:36 The only thing that’s ruined it for me is that the president of Iceland was constantly name-checking you publicly this morning.
0:02:40 And you get to think, he literally got everything from me.
0:02:42 You’re literally like, I built that guy.
0:02:42 I’m reading this book.
0:02:46 I’m reading this book, Notes on Being a Man by Scott Galloway.
0:02:50 And I got to tell you, though, I mean, the way she was talking about it, credit to you.
0:02:52 She’s just like, look, we’ve got to be able to think about boys and men.
0:02:57 Iceland’s proud of its record on gender equality.
0:03:02 But she says, I’m talking to a lot of young men in Iceland, and they’re saying the same things that Scott is saying.
0:03:04 And we’ve just got to react to that.
0:03:06 And so, kudos to you, right?
0:03:09 This message is reaching, like, it’s really reaching around the world.
0:03:10 So thank you for that.
0:03:12 Richard, welcome.
0:03:14 And are you ready to get into it?
0:03:15 Totally.
0:03:16 Yeah, let’s dive in.
0:03:17 Let’s do it.
0:03:19 Our first question comes from WinnieCooper73 on Reddit.
0:03:25 They say, what’s the best way to keep an open dialogue and communication with my six-year-old boy as he ages?
0:03:28 What ages do I start talking about sex porn?
0:03:32 How do I do it without making it a big deal or weirding him out?
0:03:36 If you could go back and give yourself advice when your boys were six, what would it be?
0:03:38 Richard, you kick this off.
0:03:39 Yeah.
0:03:44 I mean, the thing about the internet and porn generally is that it’s just everywhere.
0:03:47 That is the world that this 26-year-old is going to grow up in.
0:03:54 There was actually a UK research report that said, porn, it’s everywhere, which means it’s hard to get a control group.
0:03:55 That’s true of just on the online world.
0:03:58 And so it’s about equipping your son for the online world.
0:04:06 And I do think that the conversation about pornography has to happen earlier than it used to.
0:04:09 And there’s no getting around the fact it’s going to be weird and awkward.
0:04:15 But the key message that I would try and get across more strongly now, my sons are all in their 20s now,
0:04:21 is just not to immediately morally shame around porn or sex drive or anything like that.
0:04:28 It is to just point to the vast chasm between sex in real life and sex in porn.
0:04:36 And porn is to real life sex what Harry Potter’s Hogwarts is to the typical public middle school.
0:04:43 The gap between what you’re going to see and what it’s like is just huge.
0:04:45 It’s like a fantasy movie or whatever it is.
0:04:46 And I think that’s part.
0:04:56 So I would really work harder now to just make sure there’s just an understanding of how entirely artificial Sats that is compared to what the real life experience is.
0:04:57 I don’t know how I would do that.
0:05:05 But that’s the thing where a lot of the challenge is here, to be honest, is in that gap between what you see and what you’re likely to experience.
0:05:07 So just some data.
0:05:13 A 2024 study found that one in five children aged 10 to 12 are unintentionally exposed to pornography online.
0:05:25 Another 2022 survey of U.S. teens aged 13 to 17 found that on average, participants see pornography for the first time at age 12, with 15% of participants seeing at age 10 or younger.
0:05:31 Also, 45% of participants felt pornography provided them with helpful information about sex.
0:05:34 So I’m not sure I have a lot of insight here.
0:05:35 I don’t think I’ve done this very well.
0:05:42 I took this traditional route thinking that, oh, he’s, I forget how it was, 14 or 15.
0:05:43 It’s time to have the sex talk.
0:05:45 And we were on vacation.
0:05:49 I took my son to the beach and said, okay, buddy, it’s time to have a talk about sex.
0:05:56 And he yelled out this primal scream of no so fast.
0:05:59 And he said, can we not, please, I really don’t want to talk about this with you.
0:06:01 And there was just no way we could have the conversation.
0:06:03 So I’ve never had the conversation.
0:06:12 And it felt like forcing him to have the conversation would be more traumatizing than anything that’s happening to him online.
0:06:26 When we have found objectionable content on their iPad or whatever, I’ve said to my partner, I think unless it’s really outside the lines of what would be considered normal, curious, young male behavior, we leave them alone.
0:06:30 I just, so in sum, what have I done?
0:06:31 Almost nothing.
0:06:35 I don’t, I don’t know how to intervene thoughtfully.
0:06:37 Any thoughts, any follow-up thoughts, Richard?
0:06:40 But you haven’t done something which is important.
0:06:45 Given that it is ubiquitous, porn is ubiquitous, the sex talk is just very different now.
0:06:51 And so I’m coming back to what I think is it’s less like explaining what sex is and what it means.
0:06:55 And it’s more explaining what it isn’t, which is what you’re seeing online.
0:06:58 So it’s not about the mechanics of it in the same way.
0:07:05 But what you haven’t done, Scott, and I think this is a really important message for every parent, you haven’t just reflexively shamed.
0:07:09 You haven’t gone to surveillance followed by shame.
0:07:16 And there’s so much shame that can be attached to this anyway that just gets in the way, right, of healthy sexual development.
0:07:18 And there’s a really difficult balance to strike.
0:07:31 But I honestly would say that your instinct to not panic, not go straight to shame and not try and shut it all down and instead to give a little bit of space I think is exactly the right one.
0:07:36 And I see a lot of parents now not really knowing where the line is.
0:07:38 And no one knows where the line is, Scott, right?
0:07:40 You don’t know where the line is, but you just had a sense.
0:07:48 You knew that there was a line, a zone of privacy that you had and that you wanted your sons to have.
0:07:50 Let’s head on to question number two.
0:07:54 It comes from Reddit user extension spell 40-56.
0:07:56 And they say, I’m a female teacher.
0:08:02 Relating to teenage boys and trying to meet them where they are is hard, much harder than it was 10 years ago.
0:08:04 I’m sure this is due to a variety of reasons.
0:08:08 iPad parenting, the death of rec league, casual athletics, the manosphere, et cetera.
0:08:13 I know I’ve been an effective, energetic teacher in the past, but now I’m not so sure.
0:08:15 It’s like they’ve evolved different brains.
0:08:18 Any advice on commanding attention and respect in the classroom?
0:08:24 Well, first of all, I think we should start by thanking her for her work.
0:08:32 Yeah, actually, my own son has become a fifth grade teacher, and he’s one of the very few men around those educational institutions.
0:08:39 And I do think that one of the reasons I’m really sort of borderline obsessed with getting more men in education is I think it just helps to round out the culture.
0:08:42 But the specific question is, you know, how she’s relating in the classroom.
0:08:55 There’s a lot of worry right now that some of the online content boys are being exposed to is tempting them to almost play with misogynist content, right?
0:08:57 Some of them, I’m sure, mean it.
0:09:04 But I think a lot of it is just transgressive, and it’s become a bit more acceptable, and you’re kind of poking at the teacher.
0:09:13 And I think female teachers are also, candidly, if the boys don’t have a strong male role model in their lives, and you’ve written and talked a lot about this, Scott.
0:09:22 I always think the female teacher almost becomes another female figure to kind of reject, to act against, to contend with, to sort of just push away from psychologically.
0:09:36 And I don’t know why that would have gotten worse, but it could be, because if these boys are not doing more of the in-person relational stuff we talked about, the risk then of using, it’s almost like the teacher becomes, you know, the counter.
0:09:40 They’re kind of pushing against, to define themselves almost against the femininity of the teacher.
0:09:48 And I think given the sort of masculinity vertigo that a lot of, as John Delavolpe’s phrase, are feeling online, I think that might well be something.
0:09:53 I think it could be part of just this uncertainty, and that she’s getting a bit of the sharp end of that.
0:10:03 I just can’t imagine how challenging it is for teachers right now, because, especially with boys, and I think part of the problem around why boys have maybe become more difficult to manage,
0:10:10 is I see what’s happening with my, one of my kids is more prone to, I think, device addiction than the other.
0:10:24 And you can just see their brain being rewired, such that if they don’t have a DOPA bag on demand, following them around, that they can squeeze and get a DOPA hit right away, they become so difficult.
0:10:29 And so they’ll start, they’ll start, you know, they want, how do you get DOPA?
0:10:30 Action, reaction.
0:10:33 I click a button, something happens in a video game.
0:10:35 I swipe right, something happens, and I get DOPA.
0:10:39 They’re sitting in a class, or just sitting at dinner.
0:11:00 I occasionally notice with my, one of my sons, he would rather say something inappropriate, lash out, be unreasonable, just to get that DOPA, just to get a reaction, because he’s gotten action, reaction, action, reaction, action for so long, that if it’s just, okay, take a break and eat your dinner or do your homework,
0:11:07 work, it becomes almost impossible to break the cycle, even if that, to an inspire reaction, the action is, is difficult.
0:11:15 I can’t imagine what it’s like trying to get a kid, especially a boy, to sit still for 60 or 80 minutes and recite French verbs.
0:11:29 I just, I gotta think it’s just an enormous challenge, but I can’t think of a hack for a female teacher to better relate to her boys, and I just don’t, I think that’s a really tough one.
0:11:29 I don’t.
0:11:42 I sort of feel like, in a way, what’s happening is she’s, she’s sort of paying the price for a lot of other failures to, for the boy to get enough sleep for him to have strong male role models around him.
0:11:55 So I’ve had breakfast, to be exercised, there’s a couple of schools now, just reading a story about this, where they’re just bringing the kids in earlier, and they’re just running them around before they even start school, and they’re reporting much better results for the boys.
0:12:02 There was a really interesting study, too, that when they just started secondary schools later, you know how absurdly early secondary schools start?
0:12:03 No, that’s not the specific age group.
0:12:05 It helped the boys more than the girls.
0:12:31 And so, it’s bad for all teenagers to be starting school so early, with so little sleep, without, without, no, without sleep, without food, wrong circadian rhythms, and so my sense is that there’s still a lot going on in those boys’ lives around those basic needs of sleep, mentoring, and food, and unfortunately, teachers, and probably female teachers, are bearing the brunt of our collective failure to just provide a more boy-friendly environment.
0:12:34 All right, we’ll be right back after a quick break.
0:12:49 Support for this show comes from the Audible original, The Downloaded 2, Ghosts and the Machine.
0:12:51 The Earth only has a few days left.
0:12:57 Roscoe Cadulian and the rest of the Phoenix Colony have to re-upload their minds into the quantum computer,
0:13:02 but a new threat has arisen that could destroy their stored consciousness forever.
0:13:11 Listen to Oscar-winner Brendan Fraser reprise his role as Roscoe Cadulian in this follow-up to the Audible original blockbuster, The Downloaded.
0:13:17 It’s a thought-provoking sci-fi journey where identity, memory, and morality collide.
0:13:23 Robert J. Sawyer does it again with this much-anticipated sequel that leaves you asking,
0:13:26 What are you willing to lose to save the ones you love?
0:13:29 The Downloaded 2, Ghosts and the Machine.
0:13:32 Available now, only from Audible.
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0:15:15 Welcome back onto our final question from R.VASCO3.
0:15:17 My son is two months old.
0:15:21 I want to raise him to be a good man and model positive masculinity as much as possible.
0:15:27 And as someone who was born and raised in blue-collar Ohio, but went to college and lived in major cities, it helped broaden my worldview.
0:15:32 I find it incredible how wide the scope of the term masculinity can be.
0:15:41 Given the extremes of this conversation, how have you been able to best navigate the entrenched, oftentimes narrow-minded ways in which people define the concept of masculinity?
0:15:42 Richard?
0:15:48 Well, here, I think I’m probably going to be copying a lot of what you’ve said, Scott.
0:15:53 But I think that, firstly, it’s show, don’t tell.
0:16:00 I think it’s less about talking about what it means to be a man and more about showing what it means to be a man.
0:16:06 And the mere fact that your questioner is already thinking about that suggests to me that they’re probably going to be okay.
0:16:08 And the danger is they’ll overthink it.
0:16:12 You know, there’s that great meme, which is like, excuse me for a moment while I go away and overthink this.
0:16:15 There’s a danger that you overthink this.
0:16:21 And you’re sort of so worried about masculinity and role modeling and stuff that you kind of lose touch with just your own instincts.
0:16:24 And sounds like an awesome dad, probably going to do an awesome job.
0:16:30 Not by telling his son how to be a man, but by showing it.
0:16:32 And what are you showing?
0:16:37 You’re showing this is really just your riff, which is that you’re serving others.
0:16:45 You’re protecting and providing for the tribe, for the community in one way or another.
0:16:49 And I’ll just give you an anecdote of massive paternal pride for me.
0:16:53 I mean, I never talked to my sons about masculinity or what it meant to be a man.
0:16:55 Like, there was literally never a discussion.
0:16:57 More so recently because of the work.
0:17:06 But one of the things I always used to do is if someone got onto a train carriage or a bus and needed a seat more than someone who was the young man who was sitting down,
0:17:09 is I would say to the young man, hey, guys, who’s going to give up the seat?
0:17:12 I would just gently shame them into it.
0:17:13 And always one of them would get up.
0:17:16 And my sons would be mortified.
0:17:18 They would be, dad, dad, it’s so embarrassing.
0:17:19 You’ve got to stop doing it.
0:17:19 It’s so embarrassing.
0:17:21 Just so embarrassed.
0:17:26 And then a couple of years ago, I’m on a train with one of my sons.
0:17:28 Someone gets on and needs a seat.
0:17:29 There’s a bunch of guys sitting down.
0:17:34 And my son says to them, guys, who’s going to give up your seat?
0:17:39 However, I’m just job done.
0:17:40 And I said to him, I’m so embarrassed.
0:17:41 Please don’t do that.
0:17:42 Stop doing that.
0:17:45 But the point is, that’s this flex, this sort of parenting flex.
0:17:46 I’m going to give myself that.
0:17:49 But it’s also like they’re embarrassed when I did it.
0:17:53 It is a difficult thing to do, to publicly say, come on, guys.
0:17:55 Someone like, come on, this is what it means to be a guy.
0:17:59 You should be looking around for people who need you in some way or another, right?
0:18:05 And just magically, over time, that particular message got through.
0:18:07 I never told my sons they had to do that.
0:18:09 I never did it.
0:18:10 But they now do it.
0:18:14 And so I think there’s going to be a million versions of that, where they will just watch
0:18:15 what you do.
0:18:18 They will see how you treat your partner, their mom.
0:18:19 They will see how you treat people in the street.
0:18:22 They’ll see how you conduct yourself in their life.
0:18:24 And if you’re a good dad, they are going to be good dudes.
0:18:28 Yeah, that’s hard to beat.
0:18:31 You know, it’s not what you say, it’s what you do.
0:18:36 One of the things I’ve tried, I’ve really tried to, and obviously, I’d like to think it comes
0:18:40 naturally, I try to be really good to their mother in front of them.
0:18:45 And that is, I try to show them how much I really, like, adore their mother.
0:18:49 And also, in a weird way, I’m not weak, I’m not a doormat.
0:18:55 But I make it clear, like, on a lot of stuff around the home, mom’s in charge.
0:18:57 And I defer to her a lot.
0:19:01 And I don’t have this weird sense of when she gets angry at me, I got to get back in her
0:19:01 face or something.
0:19:03 I show her that.
0:19:07 I try to, I do think there’s something to the fact that one of the best things you can
0:19:12 do for boys in terms of helping them establish healthy relationships with women later in life
0:19:14 is just to be really good to their mom.
0:19:19 And I do have this practice, it’s a little bit more overt, called,
0:19:20 what a man does.
0:19:23 And I, you know, I’ll say to them, this is what a man does.
0:19:27 And I say, a man, immediately when they’re a guest, we have a lot of friends who come stay
0:19:27 at our place.
0:19:32 A man, immediately when he hears there’s guests, runs out to their car, gets their luggage,
0:19:34 and puts it in their room.
0:19:35 That’s what a man does.
0:19:39 A man never pours his own water first.
0:19:40 Right?
0:19:41 Never.
0:19:44 And so I’ll literally like, you know, look at them, but they start pouring their own
0:19:44 drink of their water.
0:19:46 I look at them and they know what it is.
0:19:48 And they’re like, look around and then they pour other water.
0:19:51 And I remember my mom doing the same thing for me with manners.
0:19:54 I also, and I love your take on it, and I’ve heard it.
0:19:55 So I want to inspire this again.
0:20:01 I tell my boys that when they’re around a woman socially, a man always pays.
0:20:08 And I’ve gotten some pushback, but my rationale for that, and I don’t go into this with them,
0:20:11 is that a woman’s fertility window is shorter.
0:20:15 There’s a lot of research showing that men garner greater benefit from relationships than
0:20:16 women.
0:20:22 And the downside of sex, which oftentimes is the objective for a man in a social situation
0:20:25 or a date, is much greater for a woman.
0:20:29 So the asymmetry of the value trade is there.
0:20:33 There’s a more benefit that could accrete to the man.
0:20:38 Her time, quite frankly, biologically, from a propagation standpoint,
0:20:39 is more valuable.
0:20:44 And one way you demonstrate that valor, and one way you show you’re serious, and one way
0:20:49 you recognize the asymmetry in the trade, or one simple way, is to pay.
0:20:50 Now, I’m not saying that works for everybody.
0:20:55 Some people say whoever acts whoever out, they should pay.
0:20:58 There’s a lot of people who will say, no, you split the check.
0:21:00 And I’m going to stand by this.
0:21:01 I think you should pay.
0:21:03 Your thoughts on this, Richard?
0:21:06 My sons would agree with you on the first date.
0:21:11 I think it also is partly because there’s an expectation, and I think this is a correct
0:21:14 one, that probably the guy has made the move to ask the girl out.
0:21:16 Hopefully, you’ve seen the declining numbers around that.
0:21:17 And then I think it’s okay.
0:21:19 Having asked, you then, you should actually offer to pay.
0:21:22 And actually, one of my sons has something really wise about this to me.
0:21:24 And he’s actually the one who’s a teacher.
0:21:29 And so he’s well aware that some of the women he’s dating may well be kind of more economically
0:21:32 successful than he is, although he works really hard.
0:21:34 He coaches and summer school and everything, too.
0:21:40 And he says it’s actually, you’re not signaling to them by paying, offering to pay, and they’re
0:21:40 usually paying.
0:21:42 You’re not signaling, I’ve got more money than you.
0:21:44 Don’t you worry about money.
0:21:47 Don’t you worry your pretty head about the labor market, right?
0:21:48 I’ll be the breadwinner.
0:21:53 What you’re signaling is you have some economic resources, and you are willing to spend those
0:21:54 economic resources on her.
0:21:56 It does not mean superiority.
0:21:59 It means service, and it means giving.
0:22:03 And so that’s a really kind of powerful distinction, I think.
0:22:11 And the tough thing to say about this, Scott, is that some of these things may have significant
0:22:17 symbolic value well after they still have significant material value.
0:22:22 And there was this beautiful example from Barack Obama recently when he was on Michelle Obama’s
0:22:22 podcast.
0:22:26 And I listened to it, and I immediately sent it to a friend of mine, because he was always
0:22:30 teasing me about this, which is you always walk street side of a woman.
0:22:33 That’s one of the things my dad taught me, and my mom taught me, right?
0:22:35 You always get splashed by a carriage, right?
0:22:36 Splashed back, or exactly.
0:22:41 And for me, of course, it’s just at this point, I just can’t not do it.
0:22:43 I just feel uncomfortable not doing it.
0:22:44 It’s like a second.
0:22:48 And these female friends will sometimes tease me, especially this old one, she’ll tease me
0:22:51 about it sometimes, saying, there are no carriages, you don’t need to be there, but I just
0:22:52 can’t not do it.
0:22:55 And it’s a great example, but she also really appreciates it.
0:23:04 And she appreciates the symbol of the thoughtfulness, even if the actual risk has gone away or is
0:23:04 minimal.
0:23:09 It’s more about a signal of an intent, and it’s a signal that you’re thinking about them
0:23:11 and the people around you in a different way.
0:23:14 And that is at the core of masculinity done well.
0:23:19 Richard Reeves is the president of the American Institute for Boys and Men and author of the
0:23:21 bestseller of Boys and Men.
0:23:24 His work explores inequality and the crisis facing young men today.
0:23:28 Richard, as always, very much appreciate your good work and your generosity.
0:23:29 Likewise, I’m back at you.
0:23:31 And congrats again on all the work right now, Scott.
0:23:32 You’re killing it.
0:23:33 Thanks, brother.
0:23:36 This episode was produced by Jennifer Sanchez.
0:23:38 Our assistant producer is Laura Janair.
0:23:40 Drew Burrows is our technical director.
0:23:42 Thank you for listening to the PropG pod from PropG Media.