Learn. Share. Evolve…

0:00:09 Hey there, it’s Stephen W. We’ve all been hearing a lot lately about international trade
0:00:15 and especially the restrictions on trade in the form of tariffs. President Trump, defending
0:00:19 his tariff policy on Meet the Press, said that restricting trade means Americans will
0:00:23 have to make do with less stuff, but that that’s OK.
0:00:31 I don’t think a beautiful baby girl that’s 11 years old needs to have 30 dolls. I think
0:00:36 they can have three dolls or four dolls. They don’t need to have 250 pencils. They can have five.
0:00:43 Most economists think that tariffs are a bad idea. They argue that restricting trade has
0:00:48 more downsides than upsides. Elon Musk, back when he was still the president’s first buddy,
0:00:53 was in that camp and he reportedly urged Trump to reverse the tariffs.
0:00:58 Musk also posted an interesting video on X, formerly known as Twitter.
0:01:05 There’s not a single person in the world who could make this pencil. Remarkable statement? Not at all.
0:01:10 There’s a lot more to be said about tariffs and free trade, and we will get into that over time. But for
0:01:17 now, here’s a simpler question. Why are they talking about pencils? To answer that, we’re playing you
0:01:23 this bonus episode, which we made in 2016 and have now updated facts and figures as necessary.
0:01:30 This episode is about the pencil, something apparently simple that turns out to be very complicated.
0:01:48 In an unusual New York City shop, a tiny storefront on the Lower East Side. Back when we made the
0:01:50 episode, the shop had just opened.
0:01:57 We sell only pencils, new pencils, rare pencils, antique pencils, novelty pencils, pencil accessories.
0:02:02 That is Caroline Weaver, who was the proprietor of CW Pencil Enterprise.
0:02:08 I grew up in Marietta, Ohio, which is in the southeast corner of Ohio, just across the river
0:02:08 from West Virginia.
0:02:14 Weaver was only 25 years old when she opened her store. That’s young to be the proprietor of
0:02:19 any shop, much less a pencil shop. But then, after you speak with her for a bit, it’s hard
0:02:21 to imagine Weaver doing anything else.
0:02:24 It was just kind of a lifelong obsession.
0:02:28 On the inside of her left forearm is a pencil tattoo.
0:02:33 My mother drew it for me. I asked her to take a black Ticonderoga, sharpen it three times,
0:02:36 and draw it to scale. And that’s what she did.
0:02:40 And you can surely guess what Weaver and a friend dressed up as for Halloween.
0:02:46 We both wore these paper pencil point hats that we made, and we wore pink shoes, like an
0:02:50 eraser, and then painted whatever, the logo of our pencil on our clothes.
0:02:54 What is it about the pencil that so captured Caroline Weaver’s imagination?
0:02:58 I like to make things, and I’m really interested in the way that things are made. And so at a
0:03:04 really young age, I developed an interest in these objects that appear to be really, really
0:03:08 simple, but are actually very complicated in the nature in which they’re made, and kind of
0:03:11 the nuances to all of the parts that they’re made of.
0:03:18 She sold American pencils, Japanese, and German, and British, and Swiss, and Indian pencils.
0:03:24 Every country kind of has its own normal as far as pencils go, and often those things aren’t
0:03:25 available outside of their home countries.
0:03:29 So talk for just a second about the economics of your shop.
0:03:31 Is it profitable?
0:03:37 Believe it or not, it is profitable. It turns out there are a lot of closet pencil nerds out there
0:03:39 who want these things as much as I do.
0:03:47 Weaver’s store closed in 2021, which, as you will recall, was a terrible time for most retail.
0:03:53 She now runs the Locavore Guide, an online directory that promotes small businesses in New York City,
0:03:55 like the one she used to run.
0:04:05 While it survived, CW Pencil Enterprise carried an impressive variety of pencils, variety in color, in country of origin, and in price,
0:04:10 some costing as little as $0.30 and some vintage pencils selling for $75.
0:04:19 We had visited her to see one particular pencil, which is so unassuming, so typical of its pencilness,
0:04:22 that I didn’t even realize Weaver had opened a drawer and pulled out a box of them.
0:04:25 Oh, this is the 482.
0:04:29 That is the 482, yeah. It was a classic Mongol.
0:04:30 From roughly when?
0:04:32 From roughly the 1950s.
0:04:36 Mongol 482 from Eberhard Faber. It’s Faber, not Faber.
0:04:39 It’s technically Faber, but people call it Faber. I often call it Faber.
0:04:42 Okay, so how many different pencils did Eberhard Faber make?
0:04:45 Oh, probably hundreds.
0:04:51 They were mostly known for the Mongol and the Blackwing and the Van Dyke and the Microtonic.
0:04:55 Was the Mongol 482 kind of the star of the line or no?
0:05:03 I would say that the Blackwing was the star of the line, but the Mongol was their sort of like middle range, everyday pencil.
0:05:07 By the point that this one was made, graphite technology had advanced a little bit,
0:05:13 and so it’s generally a much smoother pencil because that’s when they figured out that if they put wax in pencils,
0:05:17 they’re a whole lot smoother than just using graphite and clay in some sort of binder.
0:05:19 They changed the aesthetic of it a little bit, too.
0:05:23 The classic Mongol ferrule is black with a gold band.
0:05:29 Around that time, that’s when pencil companies kind of started developing their signature ferrule for their different pencils.
0:05:37 Today on Freakonomics Radio, the Mongol 482 may be just a middle range, everyday pencil,
0:05:42 but it’s also one of the most famous pencils in history, famous at least in economics.
0:05:47 Because the Mongol 482 has written its autobiography.
0:05:50 My family tree begins with what, in fact, is a tree.
0:05:54 A cedar of straight grain that grows in Northern California and Oregon.
0:05:59 It is a complex story about how a simple thing comes into being.
0:06:01 If I really wanted to, I could probably make a pencil.
0:06:04 But could you really, Caroline Weaver?
0:06:05 Could you really?
0:06:08 All these kind of different specialized materials.
0:06:14 And I was like, oh God, you know, so I’m trying to replicate this entirely myself.
0:06:16 Where do I start?
0:06:22 And what can a lowly pencil teach us about solving some of the world’s hardest problems?
0:06:27 The lesson I draw, when you try to fix those problems, be humble.
0:06:28 Be careful.
0:06:32 Because they’re far more complicated than you could possibly imagine.
0:06:52 This is Freakonomics Radio, the podcast that explores the hidden side of everything, with your host, Stephen Dubner.
0:07:02 Let’s begin in 1946.
0:07:09 That’s when a man named Leonard Reed starts an organization called the Foundation for Economic Education, or FEE.
0:07:14 The FEE is a think tank meant to extol the virtues of free market capitalism.
0:07:18 It’s an early proponent of libertarianism in the U.S.
0:07:20 Reed was a businessman from Michigan.
0:07:25 He started out in wholesale groceries, later ran the Los Angeles Chamber of Commerce.
0:07:32 In 1958, the FEE published an essay written by Reed called I, Pencil.
0:07:39 I am a lead pencil, the ordinary wooden pencil familiar to all boys and girls and adults who can read and write.
0:07:47 Yes, the essay is told in the voice of the pencil, an Eberhard Faber, Mongol, 482.
0:07:50 You may wonder why I should write a genealogy.
0:07:55 Which is a bit weird, but also, this pencil has a chip on its shoulder.
0:08:01 Sadly, I’m taken for granted by those who use me as if I were a mere incident and without background.
0:08:04 The pencil is also a bit of a bragger.
0:08:08 I have a profound lesson to teach.
0:08:10 But you know what?
0:08:12 It does have a profound lesson to teach.
0:08:18 I, Pencil has become a classic in the canon of economics literature, translated into every major language.
0:08:20 It’s rather beautifully written, this essay.
0:08:27 That’s Matt Ridley, a science writer, a British Viscount, and a retired member of the House of Lords.
0:08:31 He has been very much influenced by the ideas of I, Pencil.
0:08:41 And it really struck me between the eyes because this essay is at once both extremely obvious, when you think about it, and extremely revelatory.
0:08:43 Hello, hello, this is Tim.
0:08:46 And that is Tim Harford, an economist.
0:08:47 Sometimes known as the undercover economist.
0:08:51 I write books of that title and a Financial Times column.
0:08:58 Tim Harford and Matt Ridley are going to help us retell the pencil’s autobiography, which is really more of a parable.
0:09:05 It first conveys a set of facts, then it reaches a shallow conclusion, and ultimately a deeper conclusion.
0:09:12 Just as you can’t trace your family tree back very far, so it is impossible for me to name and explain all my antecedents.
0:09:18 But I would like to suggest enough of them to impress upon you the richness and complexity of my background.
0:09:25 While researching the essay, Leonard Reed visited an Eberhard Faber pencil factory in Wilkes-Barre, Pennsylvania.
0:09:31 What he found was a supply chain that even in the 1950s reached around the globe.
0:09:34 Let’s start with the wood.
0:09:37 My family tree begins with what, in fact, is a tree.
0:09:41 A cedar of straight grain that grows in Northern California and Oregon.
0:09:48 Think about all the processes, all the people who were involved in cutting down those trees and in machining those trees.
0:09:53 The people who designed the chainsaws and the axes and the trucks that ship the cedar across the country.
0:09:59 Why, untold, thousands of persons had a hand in every cup of coffee that the loggers drink.
0:10:06 Next, the pencil tells us the logs were shipped to a mill in San Leandro, California.
0:10:10 And there they were milled and cut into pencil-like shapes.
0:10:16 The pencil acknowledges all the workers who built the hydroelectric dam that powers the mill.
0:10:18 And then there’s the lead.
0:10:20 Which, of course, is not made of lead.
0:10:29 Is graphite mined from Ceylon, Sri Lanka, mixed with clay, paraffin wax, candelilla wax, and hydrogenated natural fats.
0:10:31 Did we know that? No, we didn’t.
0:10:41 And here, the pencil nods toward all the graphite miners, the men who built the ships that transport the graphite, the harbor pilots who guide those ships in from the sea.
0:10:46 Even the lighthouse keepers along the way assisted in my berth.
0:10:52 And then there’s the lacquer, the paint that gives the Mongol 482 its bright yellow color.
0:10:56 My cedar receives six coats of lacquer.
0:11:01 The lacquer is made with oil from castor beans and a load of other ingredients.
0:11:09 Why, even the process by which the lacquer is made, a beautiful yellow, involve the skills of more persons than one can enumerate.
0:11:13 The number of people involved in creating this pencil is enormous.
0:11:19 And then he goes into the same detail about the ferrule, which is the brass metal at the end of the pencil.
0:11:25 The brass on the top of the pencil, the so-called ferrule, is made from zinc and copper, which have to be mined.
0:11:29 Again, many, many hands involved, many machines, many processes.
0:11:33 The same goes for the eraser, which you might think is made of rubber.
0:11:37 I thought it was made of rubber, but it’s actually made from…
0:11:43 Grape seed oil mixed with sulfur chloride and pumice and calcium sulfide to give it color and that kind of thing.
0:11:46 All these incredible ingredients going into this very simple object.
0:11:54 The pencil explains all this detail, but in each case, the pencil is pointing out that there are these global supply chains,
0:11:59 there are all of these different inventions going way back in history, all of these different people involved.
0:12:03 And if you put it all together, you realize there isn’t a single person in the world
0:12:09 who would really understand how to make a pencil from scratch, from the raw materials.
0:12:15 Simple, yet not a single person on the face of this earth knows how to make me.
0:12:20 This is the shallow conclusion of I, Pencil.
0:12:25 Actually, millions of human beings have had a hand in my creation.
0:12:30 No one of whom even knows more than a very few of the others.
0:12:34 There isn’t a single person in all these millions,
0:12:40 including the president of the pencil company, who contributes more than a tiny, infinitesimal bit of know-how.
0:12:44 It’s a bold claim the pencil makes.
0:12:47 Not a single person knows how to make me.
0:12:50 But the claim would seem to be justified.
0:12:53 And it’s an interesting way of looking at the world, I think you’d agree,
0:12:57 at how interdependent we are, how specialized we are.
0:13:01 The deeper conclusion that Leonard Reed was making, however,
0:13:04 this is where things get really interesting.
0:13:05 That’s coming up after the break.
0:13:08 I’m Stephen Dubner, and this is Freakonomics Radio.
0:13:23 Okay, we’ve been talking about Leonard Reed’s amazing talking pencil.
0:13:26 He likes to say that nobody knows how to make me.
0:13:29 The miracle of this pencil isn’t that nobody knows how to make it.
0:13:32 The miracle of the pencil is how did it get made?
0:13:36 That’s Milton Friedman, one of the giants of modern economics.
0:13:40 In 1980, he made a public TV series called Free to Choose
0:13:42 and published a book of the same name.
0:13:45 He borrowed Leonard Reed’s parable.
0:13:48 This is the only prop I have for this TV show.
0:13:51 As you can see, it’s a plain yellow pencil.
0:13:55 The miracle that allows for the pencil to be made, Friedman says,
0:13:59 is the price mechanism that lets buyers meet sellers
0:14:02 and which makes free markets flow freely.
0:14:06 I am trading with thousands of people all over the world.
0:14:09 Not one of them has been forced to do it.
0:14:11 Nobody has had a gun to his head.
0:14:12 They’ve all done it.
0:14:12 Why?
0:14:16 Because each one of them thinks he’s better off in this transaction.
0:14:19 You might know this concept as the invisible hand,
0:14:22 as the proto-economist Adam Smith named it,
0:14:25 which suggests, as the pencil puts it,
0:14:27 the absence of a mastermind,
0:14:30 of anyone dictating or forcibly directing
0:14:33 these countless actions which bring me into being.
0:14:36 In other words, none of the millions of people involved,
0:14:37 directly or indirectly,
0:14:39 in making a pencil
0:14:42 cared one bit about making a pencil.
0:14:43 Maybe didn’t even know what they were making.
0:14:47 Not one of them is motivated by making a pencil.
0:14:50 They’re motivated by earning money,
0:14:51 providing for their family.
0:14:55 And the astounding thing, as Leonard Reed says,
0:14:56 is the absence of a mastermind.
0:14:59 There is no one dictating or forcibly directing
0:15:01 these countless actions, as he put it.
0:15:07 So the deeper conclusion of iPencil
0:15:09 is that a well-oiled free market
0:15:10 can create something
0:15:13 that even an alchemist wouldn’t dream of.
0:15:15 Now, this may not be the way
0:15:16 you see free market capitalism.
0:15:17 Let’s be honest.
0:15:19 There are market failures.
0:15:21 There are segments of the economy
0:15:24 that seem stacked against small players
0:15:28 or are too susceptible to self-dealing or corruption.
0:15:32 But the point is that free market capitalism
0:15:34 is better than all the known alternatives.
0:15:37 Now, let’s keep in mind that Leonard Reed,
0:15:38 writing in 1958,
0:15:41 and even Milton Friedman, speaking in 1980,
0:15:44 were responding to a different political climate.
0:15:46 They were both concerned about the legacy
0:15:48 of Roosevelt’s New Deal programs
0:15:51 and the growing involvement of the government
0:15:53 in American economic life.
0:15:55 They were also concerned about communism
0:15:57 and what they saw as the tyranny
0:15:58 of state-run economies
0:16:00 in places like the Soviet Union.
0:16:02 Just listen to the pencil.
0:16:04 If you can become aware
0:16:06 of the miraculousness,
0:16:07 which I symbolize,
0:16:09 you can help save the freedom
0:16:11 mankind is so unhappily losing.
0:16:15 The freedom mankind is so unhappily losing.
0:16:17 Reed sounds worried.
0:16:19 Worried that the U.S. government
0:16:20 and others like it
0:16:22 were disastrously veering to the left.
0:16:25 That the government wanted to get more involved
0:16:26 in running things
0:16:28 and the governments don’t always do
0:16:29 such a great job of running things,
0:16:31 especially when it comes to the economy.
0:16:35 So, really, the deep, deep conclusion
0:16:36 of iPencil is,
0:16:38 hey, U.S. government,
0:16:40 get out of the way.
0:16:44 Leave all creative energies uninhibited.
0:16:46 Merely organize society
0:16:48 to act in harmony with this lesson.
0:16:50 Let society’s legal apparatus
0:16:53 remove all obstacles the best it can.
0:16:56 Permit these creative know-hows freely to flow.
0:16:59 Have faith that free men and women
0:17:01 will respond to the invisible hand.
0:17:06 Does Leonard Reed’s essay sound like libertarian propaganda?
0:17:07 Of course it does.
0:17:09 That’s what it was, to some degree.
0:17:12 So, if you don’t lean that way,
0:17:13 you may not buy its message.
0:17:15 There’s also an argument to be made,
0:17:17 as some people have made,
0:17:19 that the pencil conveniently omitted
0:17:22 some important facts from its autobiography,
0:17:24 like all the goods and services
0:17:25 the government provides
0:17:27 that help, directly or indirectly,
0:17:30 in the pencil’s manufacture and sale.
0:17:32 The roads that move the lumber
0:17:34 and other materials,
0:17:36 the public schools that educated
0:17:38 the loggers and the mill workers,
0:17:40 the same schools that, at least in 1958,
0:17:43 would have ordered thousands upon thousands
0:17:45 of pencils for their students.
0:17:47 And then there are the less tangible things,
0:17:50 like a legal system to uphold contracts
0:17:53 and the protections provided by police
0:17:53 and the courts.
0:17:57 Here, again, is the economist Tim Harford.
0:18:00 Clearly, in a modern economy,
0:18:02 a tremendous amount of the infrastructure
0:18:04 that we rely on has been paid for
0:18:07 by taxpayers and coordinated in some way
0:18:09 by state government, local government,
0:18:10 or by the federal government.
0:18:13 Some of these things could be provided privately,
0:18:15 but as a matter of fact,
0:18:16 they are provided by government,
0:18:19 and they seem to be provided reasonably well.
0:18:22 So, if your takeaway from iPencil
0:18:24 is that governments should get
0:18:26 completely out of the way…
0:18:28 I think that’s an extreme reading.
0:18:29 It’s not impossible to read it that way,
0:18:31 but you’re really pushing it.
0:18:33 If your reading, however,
0:18:35 is the free market can do a lot,
0:18:36 it does amazing things,
0:18:38 and government should be careful
0:18:40 before it sort of stamps its great big boots
0:18:42 all over free market process,
0:18:44 then I think that that’s a fair reading,
0:18:45 and I think that’s a wise warning.
0:18:48 It is a warning that Harford says is worth heeding,
0:18:52 especially as we are collectively thinking
0:18:54 about how to deal with things like
0:18:56 climate change, income inequality,
0:18:58 the stability of our financial system.
0:19:01 So there are all kinds of areas
0:19:03 of the global economy where you could say,
0:19:06 I’m not happy with what the free market is giving me.
0:19:09 The lesson I draw from the story of iPencil is
0:19:11 when you try to fix those problems,
0:19:13 be humble, be careful,
0:19:16 because they’re far more complicated
0:19:17 than you could possibly imagine.
0:19:20 And any fix to, for example,
0:19:21 the energy system
0:19:23 is going to involve far more people
0:19:24 and far more countries
0:19:25 and far more technologies
0:19:27 than you could imagine.
0:19:28 Now, that doesn’t mean
0:19:30 that you should just leave the market
0:19:30 to do everything,
0:19:32 but it does suggest
0:19:35 a particular way of solving problems.
0:19:37 And I guess in addition
0:19:39 to requiring input
0:19:41 from a lot of other people
0:19:42 because of the complexity,
0:19:44 it also implies
0:19:46 that you may indeed, quote,
0:19:48 solve one part of the problem,
0:19:50 but that solution may indeed ripple up
0:19:52 and turn into a bigger problem
0:19:53 in another realm
0:19:54 that you may not care about,
0:19:55 but that actually does affect
0:19:55 a lot of people.
0:19:57 I mean, some kind of
0:19:58 unintended consequence, I guess, yes?
0:20:00 So yes, one lesson is
0:20:02 that there will always
0:20:03 be unintended consequences
0:20:04 whenever you start messing around
0:20:05 with a complex system.
0:20:07 I think another lesson
0:20:09 is that trial and error
0:20:10 is a really important process.
0:20:11 This is the lesson I draw
0:20:12 in my book, Adapt.
0:20:14 You need to carry out
0:20:15 lots of experiments
0:20:16 and you need to create a system
0:20:18 that allows lots of experiments.
0:20:19 The free market system
0:20:20 is an experimental system,
0:20:21 but it’s not the only
0:20:23 experimental system.
0:20:24 If you’re going to start messing
0:20:26 with global supply chains,
0:20:27 with the energy system,
0:20:29 with the financial system,
0:20:30 you want to make things work.
0:20:32 better, you are going to need
0:20:34 to do that step-by-step,
0:20:35 constantly gathering data
0:20:37 about what’s working
0:20:37 and what’s not
0:20:38 and running really good experiments.
0:20:41 And I think where Leonard Reed
0:20:42 was absolutely right
0:20:43 was to suggest that
0:20:45 when the free market works well,
0:20:46 it delivers amazing results.
0:20:47 Well, why does it deliver
0:20:48 amazing results?
0:20:49 One reason is because
0:20:50 there’s lots and lots
0:20:51 of small experiments
0:20:52 and lots and lots
0:20:53 of small failures.
0:20:55 There are pencil manufacturers
0:20:58 or lumberjacks or coffee companies
0:20:59 or truck companies
0:21:00 making bad decisions
0:21:01 and going bankrupt all the time,
0:21:03 but the system as a whole
0:21:04 is resilient and stable
0:21:05 and creative.
0:21:08 As Leonard Reed rightly pointed out,
0:21:09 it produces miracles.
0:21:13 And some of those miracles
0:21:15 are produced here.
0:21:16 Okay, here we go.
0:21:18 Jim Weisenborn,
0:21:19 I’m a fourth-generation pencil maker,
0:21:22 and we’re in Jersey City, New Jersey,
0:21:24 at the home of General Pencil Company.
0:21:26 General Pencil was incorporated
0:21:28 in the late 19th century.
0:21:29 We’ve been this location
0:21:30 since 1917.
0:21:32 When we spoke with Weisenborn
0:21:33 back in 2015,
0:21:35 he was the boss at General Pencil.
0:21:37 He’s now mostly retired,
0:21:38 but he still helps
0:21:39 some of the younger members
0:21:41 of the Weisenborn family
0:21:42 run the company.
0:21:44 General Pencil is one of the last
0:21:45 few remaining pencil factories
0:21:47 in the United States.
0:21:48 You’re going to see
0:21:48 probably something
0:21:49 that’s not available
0:21:50 in any place in the world.
0:21:51 It’s a total production
0:21:52 of a pencil
0:21:53 from the very rawest materials
0:21:54 to the finished product.
0:21:55 We even do all our own marketing.
0:21:57 It’s kind of fun.
0:21:58 There are only a handful
0:22:00 of American pencil factories left.
0:22:01 Sometimes,
0:22:03 when one’s shut down,
0:22:04 Weisenborn would buy
0:22:05 their old machinery
0:22:06 and store it away
0:22:07 for spare parts.
0:22:08 I’m going to take you
0:22:09 in the way
0:22:10 from the very beginning
0:22:11 of the process, okay?
0:22:12 All right, sounds good.
0:22:12 We’re going down.
0:22:13 Graphite slippery.
0:22:15 Weisenborn led
0:22:16 our producer,
0:22:17 Christopher Wirth,
0:22:17 on a tour.
0:22:19 It began by walking
0:22:20 down a steep set of stairs
0:22:21 into the factory’s basement
0:22:24 where giant metal barrels
0:22:25 were churning up
0:22:26 a mixture of graphite
0:22:27 and clay.
0:22:28 These barrels
0:22:29 are the secret
0:22:29 to our product.
0:22:31 These are tumbling barrels
0:22:32 they used in Germany
0:22:33 a hundred years ago.
0:22:34 We’ve never changed
0:22:35 this process.
0:22:36 And what you hear
0:22:36 going around in there
0:22:37 are Belgian stones
0:22:38 off the coast of Belgium.
0:22:40 And they pulverize
0:22:41 the graphite and clay
0:22:42 into a top of them.
0:22:42 You’ll find,
0:22:43 and that’s where
0:22:44 your pencils become smooth.
0:22:46 That fine mixture
0:22:47 is then dried,
0:22:48 ground up again,
0:22:49 and mixed with water.
0:22:51 Then it’s extruded
0:22:52 through a machine
0:22:53 that makes pencil leads
0:22:54 that at this point
0:22:56 look like long strands
0:22:57 of soft gray spaghetti.
0:23:00 Those are then dried again
0:23:02 and fired in kilns
0:23:04 at around 1,800 degrees Fahrenheit.
0:23:07 This is the traditional way
0:23:07 of making,
0:23:08 if you went through
0:23:08 a pencil factory
0:23:09 a hundred years ago
0:23:10 in Germany,
0:23:11 this is what you’d say.
0:23:12 I mean,
0:23:13 you’re in a time warp.
0:23:14 The tour heads
0:23:16 into the wood shop.
0:23:17 It’s great stuff, huh?
0:23:18 Yeah.
0:23:19 A machine is cutting
0:23:21 a row of tiny grooves
0:23:22 into the thin,
0:23:24 rectangular wooden slats.
0:23:26 This is how the lead
0:23:27 gets into the pencil.
0:23:28 A lead is laid
0:23:30 into each of the grooves
0:23:31 and then another
0:23:32 grooved wooden slat
0:23:34 is glued on top.
0:23:35 These are number two
0:23:38 HV plads coming down.
0:23:39 The slats,
0:23:41 the bonding process
0:23:42 is that the glue
0:23:43 goes in the bottom one.
0:23:44 and they’re flipped over
0:23:45 and make a sandwich.
0:23:47 Most of the wood
0:23:49 that General Pencil uses
0:23:50 is California cedar,
0:23:52 just like in I-pencil.
0:23:53 So some things
0:23:54 have stayed the same,
0:23:56 but a lot has changed also.
0:23:57 The old days,
0:23:59 80% of what we made
0:23:59 were yellow pencils.
0:24:00 We had all the contracts
0:24:02 with Yellow Unified School Districts
0:24:03 and Seattle School Districts
0:24:04 and the state of New York.
0:24:05 We were running
0:24:06 a truckload of pencils
0:24:06 out of here.
0:24:07 I’d have all the kids
0:24:08 and my wife working in here.
0:24:10 This is back 40 years ago.
0:24:11 But today,
0:24:13 those standard yellow pencils,
0:24:14 Weissenborn says,
0:24:15 are made so cheaply elsewhere,
0:24:16 primarily in China,
0:24:17 that it’s impossible
0:24:18 to compete.
0:24:20 General Pencil’s solution
0:24:21 was to start making
0:24:22 smaller batches
0:24:23 of specialized,
0:24:25 higher quality products,
0:24:26 drawing pencils
0:24:27 and coloring pencils,
0:24:28 things like that.
0:24:29 All told,
0:24:32 there are 117 steps
0:24:33 in making a pencil
0:24:34 in this factory,
0:24:35 and Jim Weissenborn
0:24:36 knows every single one.
0:24:37 So,
0:24:38 what does he think
0:24:40 of the pencils argument
0:24:42 in I Pencil?
0:24:43 Romantically,
0:24:44 that’s a nice story.
0:24:45 No one makes a pencil.
0:24:47 I think we make a pencil.
0:24:48 But Weissenborn admits
0:24:50 he’s never even been
0:24:51 to a graphite mine
0:24:52 or a clay mine.
0:24:53 He doesn’t cut down
0:24:54 the cedars out west.
0:24:55 Which means
0:24:57 Leonard Reed was right,
0:24:57 doesn’t it?
0:24:58 Simple,
0:25:01 yet not a single person
0:25:02 on the face of this earth
0:25:03 knows how to make me.
0:25:09 Not a single person,
0:25:10 even the owner
0:25:12 of a complete pencil factory,
0:25:13 really knows
0:25:14 how to make an object
0:25:15 as seemingly simple
0:25:16 as a pencil.
0:25:17 Not that most of us
0:25:18 would ever want
0:25:19 or need to do
0:25:20 such a thing, right?
0:25:22 That was really
0:25:23 Leonard Reed’s point,
0:25:24 that the miracle
0:25:25 of a well-functioning
0:25:26 free market
0:25:27 is that it provides us
0:25:28 with what we want,
0:25:29 generally speaking,
0:25:31 at a price we can afford,
0:25:32 at least most of the time.
0:25:35 So a kiwi fruit
0:25:36 grown in New Zealand
0:25:37 or Italy,
0:25:37 I can buy that
0:25:38 for a dollar
0:25:39 in a New York grocery store,
0:25:41 even an online grocery store
0:25:42 which delivers to my door.
0:25:44 What do you want to buy?
0:25:45 A German-made car?
0:25:48 A t-shirt made in Indonesia
0:25:49 and Bangladesh?
0:25:50 Spun from cotton
0:25:51 grown in Mississippi?
0:25:52 Yep,
0:25:53 you can buy that too.
0:25:56 But this does not stop
0:25:57 some people
0:25:58 from trying
0:26:00 to make their own stuff
0:26:01 from the ground up.
0:26:03 So it’s a simple,
0:26:04 everyday product.
0:26:05 We British,
0:26:06 we love our toast.
0:26:07 That’s coming up.
0:26:08 After the break,
0:26:09 I’m Stephen Dubner
0:26:10 and this is
0:26:11 Freakonomics Radio.
0:26:24 It could be
0:26:25 that by this point
0:26:26 in our episode,
0:26:27 you are sick of pencils.
0:26:29 So it’s time to talk about
0:26:30 how something else
0:26:31 gets made.
0:26:32 You wouldn’t think so,
0:26:34 but there is a very
0:26:35 interesting
0:26:35 modern
0:26:36 parallel
0:26:38 to Len Reed’s
0:26:39 iPencil story.
0:26:40 That, again,
0:26:41 is the economist
0:26:41 and writer
0:26:42 Tim Harford.
0:26:43 A few years ago,
0:26:45 a London design student
0:26:46 called Thomas Thwaites
0:26:48 decided that he was
0:26:48 going to
0:26:49 build
0:26:51 a toaster
0:26:52 from scratch.
0:26:53 You know,
0:26:53 mundane
0:26:54 electric toaster.
0:26:56 And that is
0:26:56 Thomas Thwaites.
0:26:58 He wanted to
0:26:59 better understand
0:27:00 just how
0:27:02 finished consumer
0:27:02 goods
0:27:03 get to him.
0:27:04 A toaster
0:27:04 seemed like
0:27:05 a relatively
0:27:06 simple project.
0:27:07 You know,
0:27:08 obviously I use
0:27:09 technology every day.
0:27:10 It’s like
0:27:12 amazingly complex,
0:27:13 but at source
0:27:14 it came from
0:27:15 just a bunch
0:27:16 of rocks
0:27:18 and sludge
0:27:19 buried in
0:27:19 holes
0:27:21 in the ground
0:27:22 around the world.
0:27:23 Thwaites now works
0:27:24 as a freelance designer
0:27:25 and he teaches
0:27:26 at Central St. Martins,
0:27:27 which is part of
0:27:28 the University of the Arts
0:27:28 London.
0:27:30 His toaster quest
0:27:31 began when he was
0:27:32 a student
0:27:32 at the Royal
0:27:33 College of Art.
0:27:35 So I
0:27:36 went and bought
0:27:36 the cheapest
0:27:37 toaster I could
0:27:38 find because I
0:27:39 thought the
0:27:40 cheapest toaster
0:27:41 will be the
0:27:41 simplest to
0:27:42 reverse engineer.
0:27:43 And this toaster
0:27:44 costs about
0:27:45 five or six
0:27:45 dollars at the
0:27:46 local store.
0:27:47 So it’s a
0:27:47 simple,
0:27:49 everyday product.
0:27:49 We British,
0:27:50 we love our toast.
0:27:52 Thwaites took
0:27:52 home the toaster
0:27:53 and took it apart.
0:27:55 And to my
0:27:56 dismay,
0:27:57 there were kind
0:27:57 of 400
0:27:59 individual bits
0:28:00 that had
0:28:01 been made
0:28:02 and then
0:28:02 come together
0:28:04 into this
0:28:05 item whose
0:28:06 sole purpose
0:28:07 was to
0:28:08 make toasting
0:28:08 a slice
0:28:09 of bread
0:28:10 slightly more
0:28:11 convenient in
0:28:11 the morning.
0:28:13 Those 400
0:28:14 individual bits
0:28:15 were made of
0:28:15 many different
0:28:16 materials.
0:28:17 There’s copper,
0:28:18 there’s nickel,
0:28:19 there’s plastic,
0:28:20 which is really
0:28:20 important because
0:28:21 it makes the
0:28:21 toaster look good
0:28:22 and also means
0:28:23 you don’t get
0:28:24 electrocuted.
0:28:25 There’s mica,
0:28:26 which is a sort
0:28:27 of slate-like
0:28:28 material and that’s
0:28:29 what you wrap the
0:28:29 heating elements
0:28:29 around.
0:28:30 all these
0:28:31 different
0:28:31 specialized
0:28:32 materials.
0:28:33 And I was
0:28:34 like,
0:28:35 oh god,
0:28:36 I’m trying to
0:28:38 replicate this
0:28:39 entirely myself.
0:28:40 Where do I
0:28:41 start?
0:28:42 So my
0:28:43 strategy became
0:28:44 to simplify
0:28:45 and substitute
0:28:45 and pair
0:28:47 back to five
0:28:48 materials that
0:28:48 I thought I
0:28:50 could manage
0:28:51 and would
0:28:52 give me the
0:28:53 best toaster
0:28:54 I could make.
0:28:55 Those five
0:28:56 materials were
0:28:57 steel,
0:28:57 nickel,
0:28:58 copper,
0:28:58 mica,
0:28:59 and plastic.
0:29:01 But even
0:29:01 with the first
0:29:02 material,
0:29:02 steel,
0:29:03 Thwaites hit
0:29:04 a roadblock.
0:29:05 The steel-making
0:29:06 process is
0:29:07 incredibly difficult,
0:29:08 especially for an
0:29:09 art and design
0:29:09 student,
0:29:11 so he settled
0:29:11 on iron,
0:29:12 which is
0:29:13 somewhat less
0:29:13 complicated.
0:29:14 It turns out
0:29:15 Britain’s a
0:29:15 post-industrial
0:29:16 society.
0:29:16 We don’t have
0:29:17 any iron mines
0:29:18 anymore,
0:29:18 but we have
0:29:18 a disused
0:29:19 iron mine.
0:29:20 Thwaites called
0:29:21 up an old
0:29:22 iron mine in
0:29:22 Wales that had
0:29:23 been turned
0:29:24 into a museum.
0:29:25 and said,
0:29:25 oh,
0:29:26 hi,
0:29:26 I’m trying
0:29:27 to make a
0:29:27 toaster.
0:29:30 The guy on
0:29:31 the other end
0:29:31 of the phone
0:29:32 was like,
0:29:32 yeah,
0:29:32 sure,
0:29:34 come down.
0:29:35 So I jumped
0:29:35 on the train
0:29:37 and went to
0:29:38 Wales to
0:29:39 this iron
0:29:40 mine.
0:29:41 Turns out
0:29:41 when he got
0:29:41 there,
0:29:42 they’d
0:29:42 misunderstood
0:29:43 him on
0:29:43 the phone.
0:29:43 They thought
0:29:44 he’d said,
0:29:44 I’m a design
0:29:45 student and
0:29:45 I’m trying
0:29:45 to make a
0:29:46 poster,
0:29:47 which I
0:29:47 think makes
0:29:47 a lot more
0:29:48 sense.
0:29:48 But anyway,
0:29:49 they cleared
0:29:50 that up and
0:29:51 he went
0:29:52 back home
0:29:53 with a
0:29:53 suitcase full
0:29:54 of iron
0:29:54 ore.
0:29:55 I literally
0:29:56 bought an
0:29:57 empty suitcase
0:29:58 with me and
0:29:58 filled it up
0:29:59 with iron
0:29:59 ore.
0:30:00 But then once
0:30:00 you’ve got
0:30:01 iron ore,
0:30:01 what do you
0:30:02 do with that?
0:30:02 How do you
0:30:03 turn iron ore
0:30:03 into iron?
0:30:04 Good question.
0:30:06 Yeah,
0:30:06 it’s like
0:30:07 fundamental,
0:30:07 isn’t it?
0:30:08 How do you
0:30:09 make metal
0:30:10 from rock?
0:30:10 I have a vague
0:30:11 idea.
0:30:11 You’ve got to
0:30:12 get it hot.
0:30:13 Turns out
0:30:13 it’s a little
0:30:15 more complex
0:30:15 than that.
0:30:19 Thwaites
0:30:19 consulted
0:30:20 professors
0:30:21 and some
0:30:22 books on
0:30:22 metallurgy.
0:30:23 He landed
0:30:24 on a method
0:30:24 from the
0:30:25 15th century
0:30:26 with a few
0:30:27 modifications.
0:30:28 He got a
0:30:28 big trash
0:30:29 can,
0:30:29 he got a
0:30:30 leaf blower,
0:30:30 he got
0:30:31 barbecue
0:30:31 coals,
0:30:32 and so he
0:30:32 created this
0:30:33 backyard
0:30:34 furnace.
0:30:35 There is a
0:30:35 video,
0:30:36 just search
0:30:37 for Thwaites,
0:30:39 that’s T-H-W-A-I-T-E-S,
0:30:40 and Toaster
0:30:41 Project,
0:30:42 and the
0:30:42 video shows
0:30:44 flames pouring
0:30:44 out of the
0:30:44 trash can.
0:30:46 Well,
0:30:46 it might be
0:30:47 working.
0:30:48 We don’t
0:30:49 actually know.
0:30:50 The fire
0:30:51 produced a
0:30:52 big lump
0:30:53 of heavy
0:30:54 gray matter
0:30:55 that looked
0:30:55 like metal.
0:30:56 I thought,
0:30:57 my God,
0:30:58 I have done
0:30:58 it the first
0:30:59 time.
0:31:00 I must be
0:31:00 some kind
0:31:01 of genius
0:31:02 because it
0:31:03 took the rest
0:31:03 of humanity
0:31:04 thousands
0:31:04 and thousands
0:31:05 of years
0:31:06 to move
0:31:06 from the
0:31:07 Bronze Age
0:31:07 to the
0:31:08 Iron Age,
0:31:09 but hey,
0:31:09 me,
0:31:10 just pulled
0:31:11 it out
0:31:11 of the
0:31:11 bag.
0:31:12 Alas,
0:31:13 Thwaites
0:31:13 was not
0:31:14 quite as
0:31:14 genius
0:31:14 as he
0:31:15 imagined.
0:31:16 The lump
0:31:16 was still
0:31:17 just iron
0:31:18 ore.
0:31:19 So he
0:31:19 read some
0:31:20 ore and
0:31:21 landed on
0:31:21 another idea.
0:31:23 What about
0:31:23 a microwave?
0:31:24 He found
0:31:25 a patented
0:31:26 process for
0:31:27 smelting iron
0:31:28 in a microwave
0:31:28 oven.
0:31:29 My mum
0:31:29 had a
0:31:30 microwave,
0:31:31 so I
0:31:31 went around
0:31:31 to her
0:31:32 house and
0:31:33 borrowed
0:31:33 it.
0:31:34 Kind of
0:31:35 borrowed
0:31:36 because his
0:31:37 mother’s
0:31:37 microwave
0:31:38 in fact
0:31:38 exploded.
0:31:39 But the
0:31:40 second one
0:31:41 survived and
0:31:41 he managed
0:31:42 to get
0:31:42 iron.
0:31:43 I love
0:31:43 that in
0:31:43 the service
0:31:44 of making
0:31:45 a toaster,
0:31:46 he destroys
0:31:46 at least
0:31:46 one microwave
0:31:47 along the
0:31:47 way.
0:31:48 he destroys
0:31:49 a microwave
0:31:49 and he
0:31:50 has to
0:31:50 go through
0:31:50 a lot
0:31:50 of
0:31:51 shortcuts
0:31:52 to get
0:31:52 the
0:31:52 toaster.
0:31:53 With
0:31:54 the
0:31:54 nickel
0:31:54 he
0:31:54 needed,
0:31:55 for example.
0:31:56 Thwaites
0:31:56 couldn’t
0:31:57 find any
0:31:57 old
0:31:57 nickel
0:31:58 mine
0:31:58 turned
0:31:59 museum
0:31:59 in
0:32:00 Britain.
0:32:00 The
0:32:00 closest
0:32:01 extant
0:32:01 mine
0:32:02 he could
0:32:02 find
0:32:02 was
0:32:03 in
0:32:03 Siberia.
0:32:04 So in
0:32:05 the end
0:32:05 I
0:32:05 had to
0:32:06 even
0:32:06 though
0:32:07 they
0:32:07 had
0:32:07 the
0:32:08 picture
0:32:08 of
0:32:08 the
0:32:08 queen
0:32:08 on
0:32:09 them
0:32:09 which
0:32:09 makes
0:32:09 it
0:32:10 illegal,
0:32:10 I
0:32:10 had to
0:32:10 melt
0:32:11 down
0:32:11 some
0:32:12 Canadian
0:32:12 commemorative
0:32:13 nickels
0:32:13 to get
0:32:13 my
0:32:14 nickel.
0:32:15 Thwaites
0:32:15 also
0:32:16 finally
0:32:16 managed
0:32:16 to get
0:32:16 hold
0:32:16 of
0:32:17 some
0:32:17 copper
0:32:17 and
0:32:18 mica.
0:32:19 Tremendous
0:32:20 difficulty
0:32:21 in making
0:32:21 all of
0:32:21 these
0:32:22 materials.
0:32:23 But he
0:32:23 still
0:32:24 needed
0:32:24 plastic.
0:32:25 I
0:32:26 was
0:32:26 determined
0:32:27 that
0:32:27 this
0:32:27 toaster
0:32:28 would
0:32:28 have
0:32:28 a
0:32:29 plastic
0:32:29 case
0:32:30 because
0:32:31 a
0:32:32 plastic
0:32:32 case
0:32:32 is
0:32:32 kind
0:32:32 of
0:32:33 the
0:32:33 defining
0:32:34 feature
0:32:34 of
0:32:34 cheap
0:32:35 consumer
0:32:36 electrical
0:32:36 objects.
0:32:37 You know,
0:32:37 this kind
0:32:37 of smooth
0:32:38 plastic
0:32:38 shell
0:32:39 to hide
0:32:40 the
0:32:40 mess
0:32:41 inside.
0:32:42 So
0:32:43 how do
0:32:43 you make
0:32:44 plastic?
0:32:44 Plastic
0:32:45 comes
0:32:45 from
0:32:45 oil.
0:32:46 So
0:32:46 I
0:32:46 phoned
0:32:47 up
0:32:47 BP
0:32:48 and
0:32:48 spent
0:32:49 a good
0:32:49 45
0:32:50 minutes
0:32:50 on
0:32:50 the
0:32:51 phone
0:32:51 trying
0:32:51 to
0:32:51 convince
0:32:52 this
0:32:52 PR
0:32:53 guy
0:32:53 that
0:32:53 it
0:32:53 would
0:32:54 be
0:32:54 fantastic
0:32:55 PR
0:32:55 for
0:32:55 BP
0:32:56 which
0:32:57 they
0:32:57 really
0:32:57 need
0:32:59 if
0:32:59 they
0:33:00 would
0:33:00 put
0:33:01 me
0:33:01 spare
0:33:02 seat
0:33:02 in
0:33:02 a
0:33:02 helicopter
0:33:03 out
0:33:03 to
0:33:03 an
0:33:04 oil
0:33:04 rig
0:33:04 in
0:33:04 the
0:33:05 North
0:33:05 Sea
0:33:05 and
0:33:06 then
0:33:06 there
0:33:06 I
0:33:07 could
0:33:07 get
0:33:07 a
0:33:08 jug
0:33:08 full
0:33:08 of
0:33:09 crude
0:33:09 oil
0:33:10 and
0:33:10 start
0:33:13 but
0:33:13 he
0:33:13 said
0:33:14 we’re
0:33:14 just
0:33:14 really
0:33:15 not
0:33:15 set
0:33:15 up
0:33:15 to
0:33:16 work
0:33:16 on
0:33:16 that
0:33:16 kind
0:33:16 of
0:33:17 scale
0:33:17 in
0:33:18 fact
0:33:18 it
0:33:18 would
0:33:18 sort
0:33:18 of
0:33:18 be
0:33:19 easier
0:33:19 for
0:33:20 me
0:33:20 to
0:33:20 help
0:33:20 you
0:33:20 if
0:33:21 you
0:33:21 wanted
0:33:21 a
0:33:22 tanker
0:33:22 full
0:33:22 of
0:33:22 crude
0:33:23 oil
0:33:23 to
0:33:23 turn
0:33:23 up
0:33:24 outside
0:33:24 outside
0:33:24 your
0:33:24 house
0:33:25 instead
0:33:26 Thwaites
0:33:26 turned
0:33:27 to
0:33:27 a
0:33:27 less
0:33:28 raw
0:33:28 source
0:33:28 of
0:33:29 plastic
0:33:30 household
0:33:30 waste
0:33:31 on
0:33:31 the
0:33:31 streets
0:33:31 of
0:33:31 London
0:33:32 you
0:33:32 know
0:33:33 a
0:33:33 plastic
0:33:34 baby
0:33:34 toy
0:33:35 or
0:33:35 chair
0:33:36 or
0:33:36 broken
0:33:37 plastic
0:33:37 tub
0:33:37 I
0:33:37 mean
0:33:38 it’s
0:33:38 everywhere
0:33:39 so
0:33:39 it
0:33:39 wasn’t
0:33:40 difficult
0:33:40 to
0:33:41 find
0:33:41 he
0:33:42 smashed
0:33:42 up
0:33:42 the
0:33:43 pieces
0:33:43 put
0:33:43 them
0:33:44 in
0:33:44 a
0:33:44 bucket
0:33:46 floating
0:33:46 in
0:33:46 oil
0:33:47 like
0:33:47 a
0:33:48 ban
0:33:48 Marie
0:33:48 for
0:33:49 plastic
0:33:50 recycling
0:33:51 it
0:33:51 was
0:33:51 kind
0:33:51 of
0:33:51 a
0:33:52 horrible
0:33:53 process
0:33:54 smelly
0:33:54 and
0:33:54 I
0:33:55 worry
0:33:55 about
0:33:55 my
0:33:56 lungs
0:33:56 in
0:33:56 the
0:33:57 future
0:33:57 because
0:33:58 there
0:33:58 were
0:33:58 these
0:33:59 fumes
0:33:59 coming
0:33:59 off
0:33:59 this
0:34:00 stuff
0:34:00 god
0:34:01 knows
0:34:01 what
0:34:01 additives
0:34:02 it
0:34:02 had
0:34:02 in
0:34:02 it
0:34:02 but
0:34:03 it
0:34:03 worked
0:34:04 and
0:34:04 in
0:34:04 the
0:34:04 end
0:34:05 Thomas
0:34:06 Thwaites
0:34:06 had
0:34:06 something
0:34:07 that
0:34:08 sort
0:34:08 of
0:34:09 resembled
0:34:09 a
0:34:09 toaster
0:34:10 to
0:34:10 me
0:34:11 it
0:34:11 looks
0:34:12 kind
0:34:12 of
0:34:12 beautiful
0:34:13 but
0:34:13 other
0:34:13 people
0:34:14 have
0:34:14 said
0:34:14 it
0:34:14 looks
0:34:14 like
0:34:15 a
0:34:15 weird
0:34:15 kind
0:34:15 of
0:34:16 melted
0:34:17 caveman
0:34:17 toaster
0:34:18 if I
0:34:18 try and
0:34:19 describe
0:34:20 you
0:34:20 it’s
0:34:20 a bit
0:34:20 like
0:34:21 imagine
0:34:22 Stephen
0:34:22 that
0:34:22 you
0:34:22 were
0:34:23 making
0:34:24 a
0:34:24 birthday
0:34:25 cake
0:34:25 for
0:34:25 one
0:34:25 of
0:34:25 your
0:34:26 children
0:34:26 and
0:34:26 they
0:34:27 had
0:34:27 requested
0:34:27 a
0:34:27 birthday
0:34:28 cake
0:34:28 in
0:34:28 the
0:34:28 shape
0:34:28 of
0:34:28 a
0:34:29 toaster
0:34:29 for
0:34:29 some
0:34:29 reason
0:34:29 so
0:34:29 you’re
0:34:30 making
0:34:30 this
0:34:30 homemade
0:34:31 toaster
0:34:32 shaped
0:34:32 birthday
0:34:32 cake
0:34:33 but
0:34:33 imagine
0:34:33 that
0:34:34 before
0:34:34 you
0:34:34 did
0:34:35 that
0:34:35 you
0:34:36 drank
0:34:36 five
0:34:36 or
0:34:37 six
0:34:37 shots
0:34:37 of
0:34:38 whiskey
0:34:38 and
0:34:38 so
0:34:39 you
0:34:39 were
0:34:39 quite
0:34:40 badly
0:34:40 drunk
0:34:40 and
0:34:40 you
0:34:40 tried
0:34:40 to
0:34:41 make
0:34:41 this
0:34:41 toaster
0:34:41 cake
0:34:41 that’s
0:34:42 effectively
0:34:43 what
0:34:43 Thomas
0:34:43 Thwaites’
0:34:44 toaster
0:34:45 looks like
0:34:45 and then
0:34:46 of course
0:34:46 the question
0:34:46 is
0:34:46 does it
0:34:47 work
0:34:47 does it
0:34:47 actually
0:34:47 make
0:34:48 toast
0:34:49 an art
0:34:49 gallery
0:34:49 in
0:34:50 Rotterdam
0:34:50 invited
0:34:51 Thwaites
0:34:51 to show
0:34:52 off his
0:34:52 toaster
0:34:53 and to
0:34:53 try it
0:34:53 out
0:34:54 that’s
0:34:54 when he
0:34:54 plugged
0:34:54 it
0:34:55 in
0:34:55 big
0:34:56 demo
0:34:56 put
0:34:57 my
0:34:57 bread
0:34:57 in
0:34:59 switched
0:34:59 it
0:34:59 on
0:35:00 and
0:35:01 for
0:35:01 like
0:35:01 a
0:35:02 beautiful
0:35:03 moment
0:35:03 this
0:35:04 thing
0:35:04 was
0:35:05 glowing
0:35:05 red
0:35:06 nearly
0:35:06 brought
0:35:07 a tear
0:35:07 to my
0:35:07 eye
0:35:08 and
0:35:09 the
0:35:09 toaster
0:35:10 immediately
0:35:10 caught
0:35:10 fire
0:35:11 which
0:35:11 he
0:35:12 described
0:35:12 as
0:35:12 a
0:35:13 partial
0:35:13 success
0:35:14 I
0:35:15 got
0:35:15 my
0:35:15 bread
0:35:16 out
0:35:16 and
0:35:18 I
0:35:18 think
0:35:18 I’d
0:35:18 be
0:35:18 lying
0:35:19 if
0:35:19 I
0:35:19 said
0:35:19 it
0:35:20 changed
0:35:20 to
0:35:20 toast
0:35:21 it
0:35:21 was
0:35:21 slightly
0:35:22 warm
0:35:22 And
0:35:23 what
0:35:23 was
0:35:23 the
0:35:23 final
0:35:24 tally
0:35:24 on
0:35:25 this
0:35:26 partially
0:35:27 successful
0:35:28 drunken
0:35:28 caveman
0:35:29 birthday
0:35:29 cake
0:35:30 bread
0:35:30 warmer
0:35:31 about
0:35:31 nine
0:35:31 months
0:35:33 and
0:35:33 I
0:35:34 think
0:35:34 I
0:35:34 spent
0:35:35 1,300
0:35:36 pounds
0:35:37 on my
0:35:37 toaster
0:35:38 in the
0:35:38 end
0:35:39 yeah
0:35:40 Converted
0:35:40 to
0:35:40 dollars
0:35:41 and
0:35:41 updated
0:35:41 for
0:35:42 inflation
0:35:42 that’s
0:35:42 around
0:35:43 2,500
0:35:44 US dollars
0:35:45 and
0:35:45 Thwaites
0:35:46 had to
0:35:46 cheat
0:35:46 quite a
0:35:47 bit
0:35:47 along
0:35:47 the
0:35:47 way
0:35:48 the
0:35:48 leaf
0:35:49 blower
0:35:49 the
0:35:50 Canadian
0:35:50 nickels
0:35:50 the
0:35:51 train
0:35:51 from
0:35:51 London
0:35:52 to
0:35:52 Wales
0:35:53 I was
0:35:53 trying to
0:35:54 make this
0:35:54 toaster
0:35:54 from
0:35:55 scratch
0:35:56 and
0:35:57 that
0:35:57 brought up
0:35:58 the question
0:35:58 of what
0:35:59 is from
0:35:59 scratch
0:36:00 because
0:36:01 if I was
0:36:01 really going to
0:36:02 be making
0:36:02 this toaster
0:36:03 from scratch
0:36:04 I would have to
0:36:04 go to the
0:36:05 middle of the
0:36:05 woods
0:36:06 get rid of
0:36:07 all of my
0:36:08 worldly
0:36:08 belongings
0:36:09 and burn
0:36:11 my clothes
0:36:11 and that
0:36:12 would be
0:36:13 starting from
0:36:13 scratch
0:36:14 starting from
0:36:15 naked
0:36:16 in the woods
0:36:17 and then
0:36:18 the process
0:36:18 would begin
0:36:19 of making
0:36:20 this toaster
0:36:20 but
0:36:21 that
0:36:21 was
0:36:22 impossible
0:36:23 I would
0:36:23 have
0:36:23 just
0:36:24 died
0:36:24 I think
0:36:25 that is
0:36:25 a perfect
0:36:26 illustration
0:36:27 of the
0:36:27 point
0:36:27 that
0:36:28 Leonard
0:36:28 Reed
0:36:28 was
0:36:28 making
0:36:29 in
0:36:30 iPencil
0:36:31 I was
0:36:31 actually
0:36:32 recreating
0:36:33 iPencil
0:36:34 in a way
0:36:34 but just
0:36:34 with a
0:36:35 toaster
0:36:36 I could
0:36:36 have
0:36:36 picked
0:36:36 a
0:36:37 pencil
0:36:37 I think
0:36:38 and had
0:36:38 equally
0:36:39 as
0:36:40 difficult
0:36:40 a time
0:36:42 As
0:36:43 difficult
0:36:43 as
0:36:43 the
0:36:44 project
0:36:44 was
0:36:44 it
0:36:45 did
0:36:45 lead
0:36:45 Thwaites
0:36:46 to
0:36:47 appreciate
0:36:47 the
0:36:48 march
0:36:48 of
0:36:49 civilization
0:36:50 Trying to
0:36:50 do
0:36:50 these
0:36:51 processes
0:36:52 and
0:36:52 failing
0:36:53 so
0:36:53 often
0:36:54 really
0:36:54 made
0:36:55 me
0:36:55 think
0:36:56 it’s
0:36:56 just
0:36:56 been
0:36:56 this
0:36:57 incremental
0:36:58 process
0:36:58 of
0:36:59 slight
0:37:00 improvements
0:37:01 lifetimes
0:37:01 and
0:37:02 lifetimes
0:37:02 of
0:37:02 building
0:37:03 this
0:37:03 pyramid
0:37:04 of
0:37:04 knowledge
0:37:04 and
0:37:05 techniques
0:37:06 Tim
0:37:07 Harford
0:37:07 as
0:37:07 an
0:37:08 economist
0:37:08 who
0:37:09 himself
0:37:10 lives
0:37:10 near
0:37:10 London
0:37:11 a
0:37:11 most
0:37:11 global
0:37:12 city
0:37:12 he
0:37:13 understands
0:37:13 how
0:37:13 any
0:37:14 one
0:37:14 of
0:37:14 us
0:37:14 might
0:37:14 feel
0:37:15 alienated
0:37:15 by
0:37:16 this
0:37:16 pyramid
0:37:17 the
0:37:17 big
0:37:18 complicated
0:37:19 global
0:37:20 processes
0:37:20 that
0:37:21 produce
0:37:21 the
0:37:22 pencil
0:37:22 or
0:37:22 the
0:37:23 toaster
0:37:23 that
0:37:23 show
0:37:24 up
0:37:24 in
0:37:24 a
0:37:24 local
0:37:24 shop
0:37:25 But
0:37:25 of
0:37:26 course
0:37:26 you
0:37:26 could
0:37:26 also
0:37:27 take
0:37:27 Len
0:37:28 Reed’s
0:37:28 perspective
0:37:28 the
0:37:29 more
0:37:29 pro
0:37:29 free
0:37:29 market
0:37:30 perspective
0:37:30 and
0:37:30 say
0:37:31 hey
0:37:31 look
0:37:32 you
0:37:32 can
0:37:32 have
0:37:32 a
0:37:32 toaster
0:37:33 it’ll
0:37:33 cost
0:37:33 you
0:37:33 five
0:37:33 or
0:37:34 six
0:37:34 dollars
0:37:34 it
0:37:35 works
0:37:35 really
0:37:35 well
0:37:36 all
0:37:36 you
0:37:36 need
0:37:36 to
0:37:36 do
0:37:36 is
0:37:37 to
0:37:37 trust
0:37:37 the
0:37:38 market
0:37:38 and
0:37:38 the
0:37:39 market
0:37:39 will
0:37:39 bring
0:37:39 all
0:37:39 of
0:37:39 these
0:37:40 things
0:37:40 together
0:37:41 there
0:37:41 doesn’t
0:37:41 need
0:37:41 to be
0:37:41 anybody
0:37:42 in
0:37:42 charge
0:37:42 nobody
0:37:43 needs
0:37:43 to
0:37:43 understand
0:37:43 it
0:37:44 it will
0:37:44 get
0:37:44 get
0:37:44 you
0:37:45 toaster
0:37:46 let
0:37:46 me
0:37:46 ask
0:37:46 you
0:37:47 one
0:37:47 more
0:37:47 question
0:37:48 if
0:37:48 you
0:37:49 Tim
0:37:49 Harford
0:37:50 wanted
0:37:50 to
0:37:50 take
0:37:50 up
0:37:51 the
0:37:51 Thomas
0:37:52 Thwaites
0:37:52 challenge
0:37:52 or
0:37:52 something
0:37:53 like
0:37:53 it
0:37:53 and
0:37:54 go
0:37:54 into
0:37:54 the
0:37:54 forest
0:37:55 naked
0:37:55 and
0:37:56 create
0:37:56 something
0:37:56 from
0:37:57 scratch
0:37:58 anything
0:37:59 what do
0:37:59 you think
0:37:59 you could
0:38:00 pull
0:38:00 off
0:38:01 oh
0:38:01 I
0:38:01 would
0:38:01 be
0:38:02 absolutely
0:38:03 finished
0:38:03 if
0:38:03 I
0:38:03 could
0:38:04 light
0:38:04 a
0:38:04 fire
0:38:05 if
0:38:05 I
0:38:05 could
0:38:06 just
0:38:06 light
0:38:06 a
0:38:07 fire
0:38:07 I’d
0:38:07 be
0:38:08 delighted
0:38:09 so
0:38:09 you
0:38:09 think
0:38:09 you’d
0:38:10 starve
0:38:10 and
0:38:10 be
0:38:10 eaten
0:38:11 to
0:38:11 death
0:38:11 by
0:38:12 squirrels
0:38:12 and
0:38:12 that’s
0:38:12 the
0:38:12 end
0:38:13 of
0:38:13 your
0:38:13 line
0:38:14 I
0:38:14 think
0:38:14 being
0:38:15 eaten
0:38:15 by
0:38:16 squirrels
0:38:16 would
0:38:16 be
0:38:16 a
0:38:16 mercy
0:38:17 if
0:38:17 I
0:38:17 could
0:38:17 be
0:38:18 quickly
0:38:18 eaten
0:38:18 by
0:38:19 squirrels
0:38:19 I
0:38:19 would
0:38:19 count
0:38:20 myself
0:38:20 lucky
0:38:25 and
0:38:26 that’s
0:38:26 it
0:38:26 for this
0:38:27 bonus
0:38:27 episode
0:38:27 I hope
0:38:27 you
0:38:28 enjoyed
0:38:28 it
0:38:29 we
0:38:29 will
0:38:29 be
0:38:29 back
0:38:30 soon
0:38:30 with
0:38:30 a
0:38:30 new
0:38:31 episode
0:38:31 until
0:38:32 then
0:38:32 take
0:38:32 care
0:38:32 of
0:38:33 yourself
0:38:33 and
0:38:33 if
0:38:34 you
0:38:34 can
0:38:34 someone
0:38:35 else
0:38:35 too
0:38:36 Freakonomics
0:38:36 Radio
0:38:37 is
0:38:37 produced
0:38:37 by
0:38:38 Stitcher
0:38:38 and
0:38:38 Renbud
0:38:39 Radio
0:38:39 this
0:38:40 episode
0:38:40 was
0:38:40 produced
0:38:40 by
0:38:41 Christopher
0:38:41 Wirth
0:38:42 and
0:38:42 updated
0:38:42 by
0:38:43 Dalvin
0:38:43 Abawaji
0:38:44 it
0:38:44 was
0:38:45 mixed
0:38:45 by
0:38:45 Merit
0:38:45 Jacob
0:38:46 and
0:38:46 Jasmine
0:38:47 Klinger
0:38:47 the
0:38:47 Freakonomics
0:38:47 Radio
0:38:48 network
0:38:48 staff
0:38:49 also
0:38:49 includes
0:38:49 Alina
0:38:50 Cullman
0:38:50 Augusta
0:38:50 Chapman
0:38:51 Teo
0:38:52 Jacobs
0:38:52 Eleanor
0:38:53 Osborne
0:38:53 Ellen
0:38:53 Frank
0:38:54 Elsa
0:38:54 Hernandez
0:38:55 Gabriel
0:38:55 Roth
0:38:55 Greg
0:38:56 Rippon
0:38:56 Jeremy
0:38:57 Johnston
0:38:57 Morgan
0:38:57 Levy
0:38:58 Sarah
0:38:58 Lily
0:38:58 and
0:38:59 Zach
0:38:59 Lipinski
0:39:00 you
0:39:00 can
0:39:00 find
0:39:00 our
0:39:01 entire
0:39:01 archive
0:39:02 on
0:39:02 any
0:39:03 podcast
0:39:03 app
0:39:03 or
0:39:03 at
0:39:04 Freakonomics
0:39:04 dot
0:39:05 com
0:39:05 where
0:39:05 we
0:39:06 also
0:39:06 publish
0:39:07 transcripts
0:39:07 and
0:39:07 show
0:39:07 notes
0:39:08 our
0:39:09 theme
0:39:09 song
0:39:09 is
0:39:10 Mr.
0:39:10 Fortune
0:39:10 by
0:39:10 the
0:39:11 Hitchhikers
0:39:11 and
0:39:12 our
0:39:12 composer
0:39:13 is
0:39:13 Luis
0:39:13 Guerra
0:39:14 as
0:39:14 always
0:39:15 thank
0:39:15 you
0:39:16 for
0:39:16 listening
0:39:22 sometimes
0:39:22 I’m
0:39:22 like
0:39:23 oh
0:39:23 god
0:39:23 and
0:39:24 we’re
0:39:24 all
0:39:24 gonna
0:39:25 die
0:39:26 and
0:39:26 then
0:39:26 sometimes
0:39:26 I’m
0:39:26 like
0:39:27 yeah
0:39:27 it’s
0:39:27 happening
0:39:28 it’s
0:39:28 happening
0:39:33 the
0:39:34 Freakonomics
0:39:34 radio
0:39:35 network
0:39:35 the
0:39:36 hidden
0:39:36 side
0:39:36 of
0:39:37 everything
0:39:41 Stitcher