0:00:06 In this box is a real preserved human brain named Betty and I think you should hold it.
0:00:13 Oh my god it’s wet. And now we’re going to go through all the tools and tricks to make your
0:00:19 brain as healthy as it can be. Are you ready? Wendy Suzuki, the neuroscientist and professor
0:00:24 at New York University. The first hand research on the brain is helping to improve memory,
0:00:28 learning, and higher cognitive abilities in humans. Let me start with exercise.
0:00:35 All the research shows the more you exercise the more change in your brain we notice. Every drop
0:00:42 of sweat counted and the best kind of exercise that you can do is. What about things that we consume?
0:00:46 Food, drink, and alcohol? If it’s on the metatrain diet go ahead. Coffee.
0:00:53 And then my memory’s not great. Most people feel that but there’s four things that you can do
0:00:59 to make memories stick. Number one is is it true that if we have less friends then our brain will
0:01:04 shrink? Yes loneliness damages the brain. Can you see if someone’s in love in the brain? Yes in the
0:01:10 side here a lot of the reward areas are activated. Doesn’t that mean then that if we don’t fall in
0:01:13 love the love part of my brain gets smaller and would that make it more difficult to love in the
0:01:20 future? That’s a great question so. Wendy, do you have any brain routines? Absolutely so every
0:01:26 morning I like to. Oh and then I do the most powerful tool that you can do to protect your
0:01:33 brain from aging and neurodegenerative disease states which is. Congratulations Diroverseal
0:01:39 Gang. We’ve made some progress. 63% of you that listen to this podcast regularly don’t subscribe
0:01:46 which is down from 69%. Our goal is 50%. So if you’ve ever liked any of the videos we’ve posted
0:01:50 if you like this channel can you do me a quick favor and hit the subscribe button. It helps this
0:01:54 channel more than you know and the bigger the channel gets as you’ve seen the bigger the guests
0:02:07 get. Thank you and enjoy this episode. You just said to me that much of your work is focused on
0:02:14 making sure people have big fat fluffy brains. Yes. Why does that matter? It matters because
0:02:22 a big fat fluffy brain is a healthy brain and my whole first book Healthy Brain Happy Life was
0:02:29 about how I learned to use all the tools and tricks and magic of neuroscience and psychology
0:02:37 to make my brain work better and I so needed it at that moment. My life got better. I got happier.
0:02:44 It is a pathway to a happy life I think having a very healthy big fat fluffy brain. Do you think
0:02:49 people appreciate the importance of their brain? No. I think they ignore it all the time
0:02:57 and I think that is part of my message to everybody that the human brain that is the
0:03:03 one in your head right now is the most complex structure known to humankind. Not Einstein’s
0:03:11 brain not Marie Curie’s brain but the one in your head and when you think about that it gives you
0:03:18 more of a self-appreciation of all of the computations that is taking for me to see you and
0:03:25 appreciate your face and be able to remember your face next time I see you when I go to my diary of
0:03:33 a CEO podcast and choose an episode. All of that is such a complex structure. You start to appreciate
0:03:38 your own kind of brain functioning more. I think that is a very important thing to do.
0:03:41 Why don’t we appreciate our brains? Because we appreciate a lot of other things.
0:03:49 We spend a lot of time on our muscles. Yeah our abs. I think that that’s a great analogy
0:03:56 and part of my goal is to kind of shift the focus from focusing on certain body parts to
0:04:03 focusing on what our brain is doing for us what it can do for us and what we can do to change
0:04:08 our environments to get to that big fat fluffy brain to get it healthy to get it happy to get it
0:04:16 growing. If I achieve a big fat fluffy brain how would my life be different? I’m saying me Steve
0:04:21 Bartlett. I’m an entrepreneur. I’m an entrepreneur. I’m in relationships. I’ve got friends, girlfriend,
0:04:26 family. How would I show up differently if I was able to make my brain big fat and fluffy?
0:04:33 Yeah so let me start with the two areas that we know respond really really well to things like
0:04:40 meditation and exercise. Those two brain areas are the hippocampus, critical for long-term memory,
0:04:44 your ability to form and retain new long-term memories and for facts and events, and the
0:04:49 second brain area is your prefrontal cortex right behind your forehead. Critical for your ability
0:04:54 to shift and focus attention. It’s important for your personality for decision making.
0:05:00 Can you show me on there? I brought a human brain. You have a model of a brain as well.
0:05:02 I have a model of the brain. Okay let’s start with the model of the brain.
0:05:12 So here is a model of the human brain. So there’s a front part and a back part. This front part
0:05:18 is right behind our forehead. That’s the prefrontal cortex, critical for the ability
0:05:25 to shift and focus attention. Also a part of the brain that is very responsive to what you bring
0:05:31 into your life. Exercise actually really helps the prefrontal cortex. Meditation helps area 10
0:05:37 of the prefrontal cortex which is right in the very front right here. The second brain area that you
0:05:44 will benefit from when you make your brain big and fat and fluffy is a structure called the hippocampus
0:05:51 which is which is very deep in this lobe, deep in this lobe right here which is the temporal lobe.
0:05:58 The hippocampus, hippocampus means seahorse and the hippocampus is critical for your ability
0:06:03 to to form and retain new long-term memories for facts and events. You have one on the right
0:06:10 and you have one on the left. So for you, superstar, podcaster, what do you need to do? You need to
0:06:15 remember all the details of that guess that you’re sitting in front of. You need to be able to focus.
0:06:20 What did they say? What do I want to ask next? And how do I want to come back to those things?
0:06:25 That is a combination of what your prefrontal cortex is doing for you and your hippocampus is
0:06:32 doing for you. So I submit that you, when you do these things that we know from neuroscience,
0:06:36 it are going to make your prefrontal cortex and your hippocampus big and fat and fluffy,
0:06:43 you will be better at doing your job as a podcaster. I am better as a dean and a professor
0:06:49 of neuroscience and teaching in class, for example, is where I’m using my prefrontal cortex and my
0:06:55 hippocampus the most. Most of us would benefit from these things that make our brains big and
0:07:00 fat and fluffy. Was there a point in your life where you had a personal epiphany or revelation
0:07:08 about the brain that made you so passionate about the subject? Absolutely, absolutely. So this story
0:07:15 starts when I was in the middle of getting tenure at New York University. So it takes six years.
0:07:20 You have six years to prove yourself as a scientist and do something groundbreaking. And if you don’t,
0:07:28 you’re fired. So no big deal, no pressure there. And I decided to only just work, work, work, work.
0:07:34 I didn’t have a lot of social interactions. I was just working and just threw myself into work.
0:07:42 And I was getting burnt out. And I decided to go on a river rafting trip to Peru by myself
0:07:47 because I had no friends. So I go on the river rafting trip and it’s great. It’s beautiful. We’re
0:07:55 river rafting. We’re camping on Aztec burial sites. And it is just spectacular. But I realized that
0:08:01 I’m the weakest person on this trip. And when I got back after this wonderful, you know, two weeks
0:08:08 in Peru, I said, I never want to feel like the weakest person on a trip like that again. And it
0:08:13 was so great to be moving and to be exercising. So I decided I’m going to go to the gym and I’m
0:08:20 going to continue this physical activity at the gym. And somehow it stuck. I had, I had let myself
0:08:28 go, not no exercise at all. And when I started going to the gym regularly, I noticed that that
0:08:34 great mood that I found in Peru every day during the river rafting trip stayed with me. I think
0:08:40 everybody in my lab loved it when I was going to the gym. And I started to notice not only I got
0:08:47 stronger, I was feeling better, that mood boost that I got from physical activity was so powerful.
0:08:52 But then one day this, you asked me about this revelation I had. It was one day I was sitting
0:08:59 in my office writing a grant, which is usually something that I have to do very regularly,
0:09:04 but usually something that I’m pulling my hair out. It’s so hard. It’s very competitive. I’m
0:09:09 competing against Nobel laureates for the same pot of money. And I had this thought that went
0:09:17 through my mind, which was, gosh, writing went well today. I’d never had that thought before
0:09:25 ever in my, I’d been there for five years at NYU writing grants. And so I, I thought, oh,
0:09:30 maybe, maybe I’m just having a good day. I’m feeling good. But I realized that the,
0:09:36 the writing seemed to have been getting a little bit better over time. I had noticed it a little
0:09:42 bit if I think about it. And the only thing I had changed in my life was regular physical
0:09:49 activity inspired by that trip to Peru. And so I’m a neuroscientist. I went to the literature
0:09:52 and I asked, well, what do we know right now about what exactly exercise is doing?
0:10:02 And it showed at that moment in time, about 10, 15 years ago, that exercise can improve your mood.
0:10:08 Exercise actually makes your memory work better. And exercise improves the function
0:10:15 of your prefrontal cortex. And I thought, wow, that, that is amazing. But the last part of the
0:10:20 story was that when all of this was going on, this was after this day of realizing, gosh,
0:10:27 something’s, you know, my writing is better. And maybe it’s exercise. I got a call from my mom
0:10:34 who said that my father wasn’t feeling well and that he had gotten lost driving back from the
0:10:42 coffee shop that he drove to every day, every afternoon for the last 20 years. And the hippocampus,
0:10:48 that structure critical for memory, is particularly important for spatial memory. And as an expert
0:10:55 in the hippocampus, as I am, I knew that that was a telltale sign of dementia and maybe Alzheimer’s
0:11:02 dementia. But as I talked to my father, and of course we went and got him a neurology appointment,
0:11:10 I saw that everything that seemed to be improving in me, that his memory focused completely and
0:11:17 very, very suddenly diminished in him. His memory was terrible. He couldn’t focus. He was also very
0:11:25 depressed because he could notice how poor his memory was. And I think those things together,
0:11:30 what I was noticing in myself, about the physical effects of the effects of physical activity on
0:11:38 my own brain function, and seeing my father go through what was a really precipitous loss of
0:11:45 his cognitive functions, that turned out to be Alzheimer’s dementia, made me think that the
0:11:53 power of physical activity needed to be explored more deeply. And by me, I was waking up in the
0:11:59 morning thinking about what can I do to better understand how physical activity could be used,
0:12:03 not just for me, for my students. Can they study better? Can they learn better?
0:12:08 Can it help? Maybe not my father. I wasn’t sure whether exercise could help my father at that
0:12:16 point. But as people age, that was the revelation that I had that made me actually switch my research
0:12:23 focus from memory function to understanding the effects of physical activity on the brain.
0:12:31 All of this is rooted in a fact that was once not considered a fact, which is the idea that
0:12:36 our brains can change shape. It’s this idea of brain plasticity. I only really learned about
0:12:40 this a couple of years ago, because I think I, like many people, didn’t realize that like muscles,
0:12:47 my brain changes shape based on what I do. And also what I consume, I guess. What is the evidence
0:12:51 for the studies that we have that proves our brains do change shape? Yeah, that’s such a great
0:12:58 question. And it takes me back to the first day of my freshman year at UC Berkeley. When I walked
0:13:03 into the classroom, I didn’t know it at the time, but the classroom of the professor that
0:13:09 discovered brain plasticity. Her name is Marion Diamond, and she was the very first female PhD
0:13:16 in neuroanatomy that UC Berkeley ever gave. I walked into her classroom in the 80s when I went
0:13:23 to college, but she discovered this in the late 1960s. When it was thought, as you said,
0:13:28 that the adult brain can’t change at all, there’s absolutely no evidence for it. And that was true
0:13:35 at the time. She thought, “I don’t think that’s true. Let’s do a simple experiment. Let’s try and
0:13:43 look at the effects in two randomly grouped set of rats. One that lives in what they would
0:13:48 consider an enriched environment. What would be an enriched environment?” Well, for her,
0:13:53 it was a rat cage full of toys that got changed out all the time, lots of other rats to play with,
0:14:01 and lots of lots of activity. I think of it as the Disney World of rat cages. And she compared
0:14:06 the brains of those rats to rats that she raised in kind of a shoe box, a smaller environment.
0:14:11 They got free food and water, all the food and water they could eat and drink, but maybe only
0:14:18 one other rat and no toys. Now, if they were all the same age, they were adults, if the adult brain
0:14:22 didn’t change, then there should be absolutely no difference between the brains raised in Disney
0:14:30 World and the brains raised in the shoe box. But she found that the brains of those rats raised in
0:14:35 the Disney World of rat cages, the outer covering of the brain, the outside of the brain here,
0:14:42 I’m pointing to the outside of this brain model here, called the cortex. It was actually thicker.
0:14:48 She was a neuroanatomist, and she showed that the thickness of this outer covering actually grew.
0:14:53 What does that mean? There were more synaptic connections there, not in the whole brain,
0:14:59 in certain brain areas. That made sense. The visual cortical area, there was much more visual
0:15:04 stimulation in the Disney World of rat cages. The motor areas were thicker. The somatosensory,
0:15:09 the touch areas were thicker because they were interacting in a much more complex way
0:15:17 with their touch system. That was the first demonstration the adult brain could change,
0:15:25 and that it would actually make the cortex of the brain grow. Now we know, what is it about the
0:15:31 Disney World of rat cages? Is it the toys? Should we all be playing with toys? Later studies showed
0:15:40 that you get almost identical effects just by giving rats a running wheel. Physical activity
0:15:46 is doing all of that, has the potential to change all of that in the rodent brain and now
0:15:51 in the human brain. Didn’t they find something similar with London taxi drivers? I always hear
0:15:58 this. I thought it was true or like a rumor. No, no, no. It’s absolutely true. That is a different
0:16:03 form of brain plasticity, which is something that we all do. All my students do, hopefully,
0:16:10 very well, which is learning. Can learning the streets of London, which are, I can’t remember
0:16:18 the number of different streets, that London taxi cab drivers have to learn to pass the famous test
0:16:24 called the knowledge, but I do remember that it takes them four years to study for this test.
0:16:32 It is intense knowledge. You have to learn all the lawful ways to get from all the big landmarks
0:16:39 to be a certified London taxi cab driver. What my colleague, Eleanor McGuire, a professor of
0:16:47 neuroscience at University College London, did is she followed wannabe London taxi cab drivers
0:16:54 during their four years of the knowledge, this test for London taxi cab drivers, knowing that half
0:17:00 of them were going to fail. They were not going to make it. She tested them at the beginning and
0:17:07 asked, how is your memory and how big is your hippocampus? Identical for all of the wannabe
0:17:11 London taxi cab drivers before they started. She scanned their brains. She scanned their
0:17:18 brains and she tested their memory behaviorally. Then they go through, half of them drop out,
0:17:24 they don’t become London taxi cab drivers, and half of them become certified London taxi cab drivers
0:17:29 after successfully learning all of this. Now, let’s see how big is your hippocampus
0:17:35 and how good is your memory. The people that passed the test and became London taxi cab drivers,
0:17:40 the posterior part of their hippocampus, which is the part we know is important for it,
0:17:45 with posterior is back towards the back of the head. The posterior part of the hippocampus,
0:17:49 which is kind of a cigar shaped structure that goes from the front part of the brain to the back
0:17:57 part of the brain, that back part of the brain was significantly bigger in those successful
0:18:05 London taxi cab drivers compared to the failed London taxi cab drivers and the memory of the
0:18:12 successful London taxi cab drivers were now superior to the memory of the wannabe London
0:18:19 taxi cab drivers that failed. That is an example of how intense learning in a particular part of
0:18:25 the brain we know the posterior hippocampus is absolutely involved in spatial learning.
0:18:31 That can change the actual structure and the function. How much of a difference can we make?
0:18:39 I’m 31 years old now. Yeah. So, if I got serious about my brain health, how much of a difference
0:18:44 could I realistically see? You know, I’m trying to figure out if it’s worth it. Yeah. If it’s worth
0:18:50 caring about my brain, is there any evidence within the literature, within studies that have been
0:18:56 done, that show, if I start now, even though I’m 31 years old, my life will be different in the
0:19:04 future in the areas that I care about profoundly if I start caring about my brain? Let me be very,
0:19:11 very concrete here. The answer is absolutely yes. First, I’m going to give you results of a study
0:19:18 in people that are 65 and older. So, studied people that are 65 and older and asked what is the
0:19:24 probability of getting dementia in the next six years, depending on the level of activity that
0:19:29 you have. Just right now. Physical activity. Physical activity. And they measured it in how
0:19:38 many walks you take per week. And if you took three walks a week or more, you were 30% less likely
0:19:49 to develop dementia in the next five years. So, 30% less likely to develop dementia. My father
0:19:55 passed away of Alzheimer’s dementia. That makes me sit up and take notice. But the thing that
0:20:02 should make you as a 31-year-old really sit up and take notice is the larger correlations that
0:20:09 show that the longer you have regular physical activity in your life, the longer you’re able
0:20:16 to stave off dementia. The more active you are over your lifetime. That first study shows that
0:20:22 it’s never too late to start. You can start walking regularly, which is doable when you’re
0:20:28 perhaps at that age. But the longer you stay active, the bigger and fatter and fluffier your
0:20:34 brain will be. Why does that make sense? So, one key piece of information that I haven’t told you
0:20:42 yet is that we know that physical activity is releasing a whole, every single time you move
0:20:47 your body, you’re releasing a whole bunch of neurochemicals in your brain. Some of them make
0:20:53 you just feel good. Serotonin, dopamine, noradrenaline, endorphins. Yeah, I feel good. If I go out for a
0:20:58 walk, I feel better than if I had been sitting here for eight hours. But the other thing that gets
0:21:03 released every single time is growth factors. I like to call it a bubble bath of neurochemicals
0:21:11 that happens every time you move your body. What that growth factor does is it goes directly
0:21:16 into your hippocampus and it helps brand new cells grow in your hippocampus. The hippocampus
0:21:23 is only one of two total brain areas where new cells can grow. That’s not the same as synapses,
0:21:28 which are connections in the cells that are already there. But the hippocampus can grow
0:21:34 new cells and this is really important because many people know that the hippocampus is attacked
0:21:42 first in Alzheimer’s dementia. And so exercise is not going to eliminate that disease state.
0:21:48 But if you start with a huge fluffy hippocampus, it’s going to take that disease that much longer
0:21:53 to actually damage enough for your hippocampus so that you start seeing those telltale signs
0:22:00 of memory impairment that comes with Alzheimer’s disease and dementia in general. Same thing with
0:22:06 their prefrontal cortex. Your prefrontal cortex can grow with physical activity. That’s not neurons,
0:22:13 but new synapses can grow. Age and neurodegenerative disease states can damage cells, but also take
0:22:18 away synapses. I’ve got two questions on that. So the first is about dementia and Alzheimer’s.
0:22:26 Do we know what’s causing it? No. We still don’t know. No. And there’s not good drugs,
0:22:31 unfortunately, right now. There’s a lot of links to lifestyle choices there, right? Yes,
0:22:39 absolutely. And so, of course, based on what I just said, my number one most powerful tool that
0:22:46 you can do to protect your brain from aging and neurodegenerative disease states is start walking.
0:22:51 Why do I start with that? Because everybody can walk. You don’t need to buy any new fitness
0:22:56 outfits. Just go out and walk more. And then they say, “Oh, well, do I have to become a
0:23:02 marathon runner?” That could help, too. But everybody can walk. And from that study that
0:23:09 I mentioned in the 65-year-old, 30% reduction in the probability of getting Alzheimer’s with
0:23:15 just walking. You said that if I go and start walking and I do exercise, my prefrontal cortex
0:23:21 will grow, which is the decision-making center, right? Yes. So, does that mean, then, that if I
0:23:25 am somebody who is very sedentary, I don’t do much physical activity,
0:23:31 that my decision-making will be worse compared to what it could be with the same person if they’re
0:23:37 active? Yes. I mean, that there is that potential. Brain plasticity and the neuroscience of brain
0:23:44 plasticity tells us that absolutely with physical activity, you have great potential to improve the
0:23:51 function of your prefrontal cortex. And I must specify a little bit. The main function that has
0:23:58 been shown to be particularly sensitive to regular physical activity is shifting and focusing your
0:24:04 attention. So, being able to listen to me while you might be paying attention to the AV guy that
0:24:10 might be telling you something right now. So, to be able to do that effectively, that is one of the
0:24:14 things that we know is helped with regular physical activity. Focus and attention, that kind of thing.
0:24:18 Okay. You talked about memory as well. Does that exist in the prefrontal cortex as well?
0:24:23 There’s a form of memory working memory, which is kind of scratch pad memory. It’s a memory that
0:24:28 when we used to have to remember telephone numbers, that the ability to remember a seven-digit,
0:24:33 at least in the United States, telephone number, it’s different from long-term memory formation,
0:24:38 which is memory for facts and events that is dependent on the hippocampus.
0:24:42 I feel like my memory is not great. Most people feel that.
0:24:50 Why is my memory not as good as other people? Because I noticed this when I was with my friend
0:24:56 in Thailand many years ago, I think I was 21 years old, and we could like leave the house and go on
0:25:03 our little mopeds for about an hour and he could navigate us back home without needing sat-nav or
0:25:07 Google Maps. And if I go three minutes down the street, I’m lost. And I always wondered why that
0:25:11 was. And then even with names and stuff, I would always, he’s my best friend. He still is one of
0:25:17 my best friends for seven, eight years. We ran a business together and he would remember every
0:25:21 name of every person, and I couldn’t. I wouldn’t. And so I’d always tell him and say, “What’s that
0:25:26 person’s name again? What’s that?” And I always wondered why my memory, he seemed to have this
0:25:32 incredible memory and mine seems to be pretty rudimentary. I would argue that everybody has
0:25:39 parts of their memory that aren’t as good as they want, but also other forms of memory that
0:25:46 they’re very good at. So I would guess, I’ve only just met you today, that your memory for stories
0:25:53 and storytelling and story progress is excellent because it has to be for the job that you do.
0:25:57 I bet you it’s much better than your friend that can navigate back. Not everybody has a perfect
0:26:03 memory in all the different dimensions. And it’s like our personality. Some people have a wonderful
0:26:09 sense of humor and others don’t. It is about how our brains are wired, which is defined both by
0:26:17 nature and nurture, our genes. And if I went to stand-up comedy class, I would probably get funnier.
0:26:21 But there’s probably a limit to my funniness compared to other people.
0:26:23 So there’s different types of memory. Yes.
0:26:28 In your book, you talk about there being, I think, is there three different types of memory
0:26:33 in total that are formed in the hippocampus? There’s lots of different names for forms of
0:26:39 memory in the hippocampus. But I like to describe it as the hippocampus is critical for our memory
0:26:46 for facts and events, also called declarative memory or cognitive memory. Another form of memory
0:26:51 that’s dependent on a completely different structure is motor memory, the memory that you
0:26:57 use to learn how to play tennis or pickle ball or whatever you’re playing. And it’s not declarative.
0:27:04 I can’t declare how I do a backhand in tennis, but it is in your motor functions. And this is
0:27:09 dependent on the striatum and a motor-related structure. And then there’s the prefrontal cortex,
0:27:16 dependent on that working memory or scratch pad memory, keeping things in mind. So you and I are
0:27:20 both trying to remember what we’ve just said so we can link it to things that we might say in the
0:27:25 future. One of the things that I found really interesting, both as a marketeer, but also as
0:27:30 a podcaster and as someone that’s making a lot of content and trying to get people’s attention,
0:27:35 was as I was reading through your work, it became quite clear to me that there’s a bit of an overlap
0:27:40 between memory and attention in many respects, because you were talking about these four things
0:27:46 that make facts or events memorable. And many of those things are things that I think about
0:27:50 as a marketeer when I’m trying to get someone to engage with something, click on something,
0:27:56 buy something. What are those four things? Can we go through them? Absolutely. So I like to say
0:28:03 there are four things that make memory stick. And this is after 25 or 30 years studying the
0:28:09 hippocampus and how memories work. Number one is obvious repetition. You remember things with
0:28:17 repetition. Number two, not as obvious, association. The hippocampus is an associative structure.
0:28:23 It associates one thing with the other. For example, your name and your face. So I just
0:28:28 met you and I will remember your name and your face now. But it also helps you remember things
0:28:34 like who’s married to each other, associating the husband with the wife. Have you heard of the memory
0:28:42 palace? Yes. Yes. So this is a technique that has been used for many, many ages to help remember
0:28:50 things. And it is a strategy where you picture a special location that’s very familiar to you,
0:28:58 like your childhood home. And when you need to remember a list of items, you take an imaginative
0:29:03 walk through that very familiar environment and place those items in particular locations
0:29:10 in the environment. That is associating something really familiar, your childhood home. You know
0:29:16 every corner of it with the new thing you need to remember. And that works and has worked for
0:29:21 memory champions for many years because the hippocampus associates things together.
0:29:29 That’s number two, association. Number three is novelty. We remember novel things. I’ve never
0:29:35 been to this particular studio ever before in my 26 years in New York and Brooklyn. So this is
0:29:41 a novel thing and I will remember coming here to do this podcast with you. Our brains and this is
0:29:48 where it interacts with the attention system. Our attention system focuses on things that are
0:29:54 novel. Why? Because it could be dangerous. I’ve seen things over and over and over again. I don’t
0:30:00 notice them. They go into the background. It’s not going to hurt me. It’s not going to cause me
0:30:07 any danger. That’s why cliche doesn’t work in marketing. Exactly. But something novel, that
0:30:16 really perks people up. I use that in my teaching all the time. Surprise students with an element of
0:30:22 what you want them to learn and they will remember it better. But the fourth one, which is so powerful
0:30:30 and we know it intuitively, we understand this intuitively, is emotional resonance makes things
0:30:37 more memorable. We remember the happiest and the saddest things in our lives because
0:30:42 that emotional resonance solidifies those memories. Where does that come from? It comes
0:30:47 from a structure called the amygdala that sits right in front of the hippocampus, right in the
0:30:52 front of the temporal lobe right here. And the hippocampus is right behind it. Amygdala means
0:30:58 almond. It’s an almond-shaped structure and it sits right in front of the kind of tube-shaped
0:31:05 structure that is the hippocampus behind it. And the amygdala is kind of infusing the hippocampus
0:31:12 and kind of giving it a little jolt when it’s emotionally resonant, either really happy or
0:31:20 really sad. You brought with you what you’ve told me is a real human brain. Yes, I did. Now,
0:31:25 I’m not sure if you’re just winding me up, but we’re talking here about novelty and surprise.
0:31:29 That’s right. Things you’ll never forget and emotional resonance. Correct. And as you’re
0:31:32 saying that, I was conscious that over in the corner of the room it appears that there’s a
0:31:38 human brain in a box. So Jack is just bringing the human brain in. Yes. I’ve never seen a human
0:31:44 brain before. That’s why I brought you gloves so that you can hold it if you like. If you like.
0:31:50 Do you have permission to, if there is a human brain in this box and you’re not winding me up,
0:31:58 did you have to get permission from the owner of that brain? So this was purchased lawfully
0:32:06 by my department, the Center for Neuroscience at New York University. So it is lawfully ours
0:32:14 to use as a teaching tool. And it does bring enormous novelty to any situation that I go into
0:32:18 and makes people really think about their brain in a new way, which is why I bring it.
0:32:26 What is in that box? In this box is a real preserved human brain named Betty.
0:32:34 Was the person who used to own that brain called Betty? No, we don’t know the name of the person.
0:32:39 I named this brain Betty. So can you tell if it’s a man or a woman? No, I can’t.
0:32:45 Oh, men and women brains not different at all. They are, but in very, very subtle ways that
0:32:49 we wouldn’t be able to tell just looking at the outside of the brain like this.
0:32:58 Okay, I’m ready. Are you ready? I think so. Okay, so I’m going to open the hat box.
0:33:04 No way is that real. And I’m going to pull out. Are you joking? Is that really a brain?
0:33:14 It is a real preserved human brain. There it is. Funtal lobe, frontal lobe,
0:33:21 occipital lobe for vision, occipital lobe back there. And in this brain, I don’t know if you
0:33:27 can see it from over there. If I pull apart the two hemispheres, you can see how deep
0:33:36 the folds of the brain, the surface is folded in that deep into the brain,
0:33:44 which expands the surface area of the outside of the cortex. The rat cortex is flat. There’s no
0:33:53 folds. Humans and elephants and dolphins have lots of folds. They have much higher capacity
0:33:58 for computation because of the folds that you see in this brain.
0:34:01 It’s smaller than I was expecting. Really? Half the people say it’s smaller. Half
0:34:07 the people say, wow, that’s enormous. Interesting. Is that the color of a brain?
0:34:13 The color of the brain is darker than the real brain. If we opened up my head right now because
0:34:19 of the formaldehyde, the preservative chemical that this has been sitting in for at least 26 years,
0:34:25 this brain has been in my department for ever since I got here 26 years ago.
0:34:29 I feel like I probably should hold it. I think you should hold it.
0:34:50 Oh my God, it’s wet. Yes. That defined this person’s whole life, how they saw, felt,
0:34:57 smelled, heard, and thought about the world just right there in your one hand, in your right hand.
0:35:03 It’s crazy to think that this little thing is, oh, it’s different underneath.
0:35:06 Yes. It’s crazy to think that this little thing, this little…
0:35:12 That’s the start of the spinal cord right there that you pointed at.
0:35:15 And this stuff underneath at the back. That is the cerebellum,
0:35:19 brain structure, critical for fine motor movement.
0:35:25 So we wouldn’t be able to walk smoothly if you have damage in your cerebellum.
0:35:31 Isn’t it interesting that everything, as you say, everything this person worried about,
0:35:37 every thought, every memory, every relationship, all of their education, the school they went to,
0:35:46 the university, everything they saw and remembered, and all of their trauma and their anxiety and maybe
0:35:52 their depression, everything they went through, even their last days before they died is like
0:35:59 captured in this little ball of like tofu that sits in my hand, an entire human being’s existence.
0:36:01 It’s true.
0:36:05 What they watched on TV, their favorite movie, their favorite number, color,
0:36:07 everything is in this tiny little ball of tofu.
0:36:10 It’s true.
0:36:14 Oh, gosh.
0:36:22 It is amazing. And actually, in real life, firm tofu is the consistency of the brain.
0:36:29 I often bring in a block of firm tofu when I demo this for students,
0:36:31 in addition to Betty.
0:36:33 Do you remember the first time you saw a human brain?
0:36:35 I do.
0:36:37 Did it change how you think about your own brain?
0:36:44 It changed my life because I was like, I want to study that.
0:36:50 That is the coolest thing that I’ve ever seen in my whole life.
0:36:52 And I want to study that and I want to be just like her.
0:36:59 And so it really like, okay, now I decided this is what I want to do.
0:37:04 And it was life-changing.
0:37:07 I say that because at the start of this conversation,
0:37:09 we said that most of us don’t appreciate our brain.
0:37:11 A lot of people don’t even realize it’s there.
0:37:16 But the minute I had a brain scan one day and that brain scan really changed my life
0:37:18 because seeing my own brain for the first time,
0:37:23 it was the push that I needed to start caring more about how my decisions
0:37:24 and behaviors are impacting it.
0:37:28 So let’s talk about how I can make that ball of tofu in my head super healthy,
0:37:30 super big fat and fluffy.
0:37:31 You talked about exercise early on,
0:37:35 but we didn’t really dig into exactly what you mean by exercise
0:37:38 because exercise I think is multifaceted in this definition.
0:37:46 What kind of exercise should I be doing to make my ball of tofu in my head great, optimal?
0:37:52 Well, all the research shows that the best kind of exercise that you can do
0:37:58 is anything that gives you aerobic activity that is getting your heart rate up.
0:38:01 So that goes for power walking.
0:38:02 We’ll get your heart rate up.
0:38:04 Soccer, so many different things.
0:38:06 Name your activity.
0:38:09 So many people want to say, oh, my favorite activity, will that work?
0:38:13 And I always just say, is your heart rate up when you’re doing it?
0:38:16 If the answer is yes, then yeah, that works great.
0:38:19 We know that that level of aerobic activity is critical
0:38:23 because that’s going to release that growth factor maximally
0:38:27 to get into your hippocampus that will grow those new brain cells.
0:38:28 How much?
0:38:31 So I have an answer to that.
0:38:34 So we did two different experiments in my lab.
0:38:40 One in low fit people, people that are really not exercising very much at all,
0:38:46 less than 30 minutes in the last three weeks you’ve moved your body.
0:38:53 And we asked, could we see any behavioral improvement in your memory function
0:38:57 from your hippocampus or your ability to shift and focus attention?
0:39:03 If we ask you to move your body in an aerobic way for two to three times a week,
0:39:07 and we collaborated with a spin class, so clearly very aerobic.
0:39:12 And what we found was in those people that did successfully
0:39:16 do two to three times a week a 45 minute aerobic activity,
0:39:22 their mood got significantly better, their memory function got better,
0:39:26 and their ability to shift and focus attention got significantly better.
0:39:30 So that gives a little bit of a guideline for low fit people.
0:39:35 Two to three times a week can start to give you some of those cognitive changes.
0:39:38 But you don’t look low fit.
0:39:40 So let me answer the question you’re about to ask me.
0:39:41 You’re like, what about me?
0:39:43 I exercise pretty regularly.
0:39:46 And how much do I need?
0:39:50 So to answer that question, we went to another spin studio,
0:39:53 and we said, look, we’re going to give you free classes.
0:39:58 You could exercise as much as you want at this studio
0:40:01 and go up to seven times a week.
0:40:04 And the control was just stay the same.
0:40:07 They were working out twice a week at the studio.
0:40:09 Control was the other group that you were testing them against.
0:40:10 Yes, exactly.
0:40:17 And so what we found was basically every drop of sweat counted.
0:40:22 The more you exercise, the more change in your brain we noted,
0:40:25 both your hippocampal function, prefrontal function and mood.
0:40:30 If you were already getting benefit, you’re already going twice a week.
0:40:34 But the more you did, the more brain changes you got.
0:40:38 So that doesn’t give the formula that I would like,
0:40:40 but we were heading in that direction,
0:40:43 which is part of one of the questions that I want to answer.
0:40:46 But I love to leave people with the idea
0:40:50 that every drop of sweat counts for building your brain
0:40:52 into the big, fat, fluffy brain that you really want.
0:40:59 And then in the real world, again, making it super real for people,
0:41:03 how does that change how I show up?
0:41:05 Yeah, if you allow it to,
0:41:08 should have a beautiful effect on your mindset,
0:41:18 that your mindset around how often should I wake up 30 minutes early
0:41:20 and do that walk before I start my day,
0:41:25 or accept the invitation to go walk the dog with a neighbor.
0:41:28 It’s not an obligation.
0:41:30 It is something that you’re doing for yourself.
0:41:34 It is going to have direct benefits on that ball of tofu,
0:41:36 as you call it, in your head.
0:41:38 It’s going to make it work better.
0:41:41 And I mean, I think the most immediate thing
0:41:44 that I benefit from every single day
0:41:46 is the mood boost that you get
0:41:48 from that serotonin dopamine noradrenaline
0:41:50 that gets released every time you move your body.
0:41:52 I always think that because obviously I do a lot of podcasting
0:41:56 and I’m super reliant on my brain being attached to my mouth.
0:41:58 And sometimes I notice that it’s not.
0:41:58 You know what I mean?
0:41:59 Like sometimes I’m not articulate.
0:42:01 I can’t get my thoughts together, whatever.
0:42:03 And I always try and figure out the correlation
0:42:04 between what I did that day,
0:42:07 when I have a good day versus a bad day.
0:42:08 And I’ve, from you on,
0:42:10 and also I speak on stage sometimes,
0:42:11 so I’ve often asked myself,
0:42:15 because I saw Tony Robbins, the speaker one day,
0:42:17 on a trampoline before he goes up on stage.
0:42:19 I asked myself, okay,
0:42:21 should I be doing a workout in my green room
0:42:23 before I go up on stage for a big talk or presentation?
0:42:25 You think I should?
0:42:26 Oh yeah, absolutely.
0:42:27 What’s the basis of that in science?
0:42:28 In your sense?
0:42:31 It’s the basis is that immediate fact.
0:42:34 So there’s three key effects that we know happen
0:42:36 every time you move your body.
0:42:37 First one is mood.
0:42:39 You’re going to get your dopamine, your serotonin up.
0:42:42 Second is focus and attention.
0:42:46 So a single workout isn’t going to make more synapses
0:42:47 in your prefrontal cortex,
0:42:50 but the prefrontal cortex uses dopamine.
0:42:54 And so it’s clear that even a single workout
0:42:56 can make your prefrontal cortex work better
0:42:57 in terms of focus and attention.
0:42:59 Also very important anytime you’re speaking.
0:43:01 And the third is reaction time.
0:43:06 Your reaction time, motor, you’re working your motor cortex
0:43:07 when you move your body.
0:43:10 And your response in reaction time
0:43:14 is significantly shorter after even a single workout
0:43:18 compared to if you just don’t work out and sit alone.
0:43:21 So great, great things to do,
0:43:23 a great thing to do before you stand up and speak.
0:43:25 What about coffee?
0:43:30 I’m trying to figure out if coffee is good for my brain,
0:43:31 bad for my brain.
0:43:35 I’ve had a couple of mixed messages around the impact
0:43:36 it might be having on my brain.
0:43:39 – Yeah, you know caffeine is a stimulant
0:43:42 and people respond to that kind of stimulant
0:43:44 in different ways.
0:43:46 Ovestimulation with caffeine is not good
0:43:50 for your ability to put words together.
0:43:54 You know, this is where I turn to a main theme
0:43:56 in my book “Healthy Brain, Happy Life”
0:43:59 which is self-experimentation.
0:44:04 For you, what can you titrate your coffee?
0:44:08 To see what level of coffee is best for whatever,
0:44:10 your podcast or you’re giving a talk.
0:44:14 The other thing that can work similarly to coffee
0:44:17 that I’ve started and that I do every morning
0:44:20 is hot cold contrast showers.
0:44:23 Because that cold that you…
0:44:26 that you shower on yourself after the heat
0:44:31 stimulates adrenaline in you, a natural adrenaline.
0:44:35 Ooh, it wakes you up and okay, it was painful.
0:44:37 The first kind of few times I tried it.
0:44:41 But then you get addicted to it and I have forgotten
0:44:43 to do it and gotten back in the shower
0:44:46 just to douse myself with cold water
0:44:49 because I feel better when I do that
0:44:51 for, you know, first thing in the morning.
0:44:55 So lots of different things that one can explore with.
0:44:57 Okay, on the other side of the coin then,
0:44:59 what are some of the central behaviors
0:45:01 that people do that destroy their brain?
0:45:07 Well, sedentary behavior is one of them.
0:45:10 Not getting enough sleep is critical.
0:45:12 We haven’t talked about sleep yet.
0:45:17 Sleep is so important for normal functioning of the brain.
0:45:19 I like to scare my students by saying
0:45:22 that, you know, in torture situations,
0:45:25 if you deprive a person of sleep for too long,
0:45:26 they literally die.
0:45:28 They die.
0:45:31 You cannot function if you are deprived of sleep
0:45:33 for too many hours in a row.
0:45:34 It’s that critical.
0:45:35 Yet we don’t…
0:45:38 We happily, you know, watch too much Netflix at night
0:45:40 and get only five hours of sleep
0:45:42 when we could have had eight.
0:45:44 So what’s happening exactly?
0:45:46 Why is it so important?
0:45:48 Well, there’s so many different things.
0:45:50 I’m going to say two.
0:45:55 One is that we know that in regular healthy sleep,
0:45:58 there is activity in the hippocampus
0:46:01 that helps you strengthen the memories
0:46:03 that you have formed in that previous day.
0:46:05 It’s called consolidation.
0:46:06 And it’s so important.
0:46:08 If you shorten that, if you don’t get enough,
0:46:12 you are not consolidating your normal everyday memories.
0:46:16 And second, it is the time during sleep
0:46:18 when all the metabolites,
0:46:21 all that garbage that your brain is producing,
0:46:24 because all biological cells produce garbage,
0:46:28 it gets kind of cleaned up through the cerebral spinal fluid
0:46:30 that is flowing through your brain.
0:46:32 And if you do not get enough sleep,
0:46:35 you build up garbage metabolites in your brain.
0:46:37 It’s like you have a gunky brain.
0:46:38 And do you feel like…
0:46:41 I feel like I have gunk in my brain when I don’t sleep enough.
0:46:43 That is exactly what is happening.
0:46:46 What when you think about things that we consume,
0:46:51 like food and drink and alcohol and all these kinds of things,
0:46:53 is there anything that if I’m trying to have an optimal brain,
0:46:56 I should be having or not having?
0:47:01 Yeah. Well, so I think the most evidence
0:47:06 is around the benefit of the Mediterranean diet,
0:47:10 which is basically all healthy, kind of organic,
0:47:14 not organic, but non-processed is the word I was trying to think of.
0:47:17 Things to eat that are very, very colorful.
0:47:21 There is so much evidence about how good that is,
0:47:24 generally, for the brain that that is my go-to.
0:47:26 What should I eat?
0:47:28 Well, is it on the Mediterranean diet?
0:47:30 If it is, then go ahead.
0:47:33 If it’s too processed, only do it just a little bit.
0:47:36 Is it true that if we have less friends,
0:47:38 if we have less strong relationships,
0:47:42 if we’re lonely, then our brain will shrink
0:47:45 and is more prone to dementia and Alzheimer’s and things like that?
0:47:52 Yes, we are social creatures, and there are really powerful studies
0:47:54 that have shown the correlation
0:47:57 between the number of social connections that we have,
0:48:00 including just saying hello to the barista at Starbucks.
0:48:04 It’s not a close friendship that you develop over 30 years.
0:48:08 It’s just how many people you interact with and greet.
0:48:09 And longevity.
0:48:13 The more people you are regularly interacting with,
0:48:16 the longer you are living.
0:48:17 Overall longevity.
0:48:20 But if you go into brain health, absolutely.
0:48:22 It’s also very, very healthy for you.
0:48:25 It also brings happiness.
0:48:28 So a friend and colleague of mine, Robert Wallinger,
0:48:32 studied what makes people happy.
0:48:35 This study started in the ’20s, the 1920s in Harvard.
0:48:39 And after all of those many, many, many decades,
0:48:42 the answer is what brings happiness
0:48:45 is the strength of your social connections.
0:48:46 So it makes you happier.
0:48:47 It makes you live longer.
0:48:52 And yes, loneliness on the flip side causes stress,
0:48:56 long-term stress that damages the brain.
0:49:01 And yeah, in the long term, can make it smaller and less healthy.
0:49:03 Do you have any brain routines?
0:49:05 Like a morning routine for your brain?
0:49:06 Absolutely.
0:49:11 So every morning, I like to wake up and I do a tea meditation,
0:49:15 which is a meditation over the brewing and drinking of tea.
0:49:18 And this is after many years of yo-yo meditating.
0:49:20 I knew meditation was good,
0:49:22 but I just couldn’t really get into it.
0:49:26 And I was introduced to this form of meditation
0:49:31 from by a monk who invited me to tea
0:49:34 and just did this silent meditation outside
0:49:36 in a beautiful location.
0:49:43 And the ritual and the sequence of brewing, drinking, seeping,
0:49:48 starting over again kind of kept me in the flow.
0:49:52 And so I start with about a 45-minute tea meditation.
0:49:55 Then I do about a 30-minute workout.
0:49:56 I try and do cardio strength.
0:49:57 Sometimes I do yoga.
0:49:58 Sometimes I just do mobility.
0:50:02 And then I have breakfast and then I go to work.
0:50:06 Oh, and then I do that hot cold contrast shower
0:50:09 is also something very helpful for my brain health
0:50:11 because it really does in me.
0:50:15 That adrenaline boost that I get just energizes me.
0:50:17 And I love that feeling at the beginning of the day.
0:50:18 Just going back to that question,
0:50:19 because I want to close off on it as well,
0:50:22 the idea of what would I have to do to destroy my brain?
0:50:23 So no sleep.
0:50:25 I’m going to be sad and tree.
0:50:27 I’m going to have no friends.
0:50:29 And smoking?
0:50:32 Smoking is very bad for your health.
0:50:33 And your brain.
0:50:35 Okay, alcohol?
0:50:37 Alcohol.
0:50:40 I mean, yes, long-term alcohol can cause significant
0:50:43 and named brain diseases.
0:50:46 Moderation, even moderation now,
0:50:48 as studies have shown, is not very good.
0:50:50 And the reason why it’s not good
0:50:53 is that alcohol disrupts your sleep.
0:50:56 Even though people drink it to go to sleep faster,
0:51:00 the sleep is much more superficial and is not deep.
0:51:02 And it’s not the healthy sleep.
0:51:09 So that is not good overall for sleep, depth and health,
0:51:11 and therefore brain health.
0:51:14 I’m going to eat a processed diet to hurt my brain.
0:51:19 And I’m not going to have a lifestyle that is novel,
0:51:20 because we talked about learning.
0:51:21 Right, yes.
0:51:22 So I’m not going to learn anything new.
0:51:25 All of these things should shrink that little…
0:51:28 You’re not going to be mindful also.
0:51:31 Is there evidence that being mindful,
0:51:33 which is like meditation and being in the moment,
0:51:34 helps the brain?
0:51:35 It does.
0:51:39 There’s beautiful studies showing brain plasticity
0:51:44 in the areas that are important for focused attention.
0:51:46 Meditation, the practice of meditation
0:51:50 is basically a practice of enriching the function
0:51:51 of your prefrontal cortex.
0:51:53 So you can focus on that object,
0:51:59 either the breath or loving kindness is a form of meditation.
0:52:04 So yes, there’s been studies that brain changes occur
0:52:07 in long-term meditators that are absolutely beneficial.
0:52:09 What if I’m on social media all the time?
0:52:11 Because isn’t that good for me,
0:52:13 because I’m going to be seeing lots of new things all the time
0:52:14 and I’ll be learning lots of new things.
0:52:18 So isn’t, if I sat on a screen for seven hours a day,
0:52:20 is that good for my brain, social media?
0:52:23 Does that take you away from real people
0:52:25 and interacting with real people?
0:52:26 Yes.
0:52:29 Okay, then it’s modulated by that.
0:52:30 Is it not the same thing?
0:52:32 There’s a difference, and I think your brain knows it.
0:52:38 And look, there’s enormous amounts of evidence showing
0:52:41 that the increase in use of social media,
0:52:43 especially in young kids,
0:52:48 correlate with huge increases in depression and anxiety levels,
0:52:50 particularly in young girls.
0:52:55 So when kids started getting the smartphones
0:52:58 and started to spend more and more seven hours a day
0:52:59 on social media,
0:53:02 that’s when the anxiety and depression went up.
0:53:04 That’s for young kids.
0:53:07 I use social media as well as a tool for business.
0:53:08 That is a little bit different.
0:53:12 I’m not 13 years old, and you’re not 13 years old.
0:53:14 So there’s some warnings, I think,
0:53:16 that need to go into that.
0:53:19 But let me be clear.
0:53:20 No, it’s not the same.
0:53:24 Social media is not the same as social interactions
0:53:26 face-to-face with people.
0:53:29 Are you concerned about what social media is doing to our brains?
0:53:30 Yes.
0:53:33 Because we hear those stats around young girls
0:53:34 are struggling most with social media,
0:53:36 and we think to ourselves,
0:53:38 well, that’s because there’s a lot of comparison
0:53:39 and all these kinds of things,
0:53:41 and there’s a lot of toxic messaging and such.
0:53:45 But if we think about the physiological consequences
0:53:46 of social media,
0:53:49 what it’s actually doing to our brains at a chemical level,
0:53:53 what would you as a neuroscientist guess?
0:53:56 Is the physiological harm to the brain?
0:53:57 Not the sort of psychological,
0:53:58 I’m thinking about, not the psychological,
0:54:00 okay, oh my God, she’s more this than me,
0:54:03 but the physiological harm.
0:54:06 But the psychological harm causes stress.
0:54:10 Stress releases stress hormone that goes into the brain
0:54:13 that at too high and too constant a level
0:54:17 can start to first damage connections and then kill cells.
0:54:20 So it’s intertwined there.
0:54:22 And that is part of what is happening.
0:54:27 You can’t pull one away from the other.
0:54:30 Because social media is designed to kind of,
0:54:31 it’s like pulling the slot machine handle.
0:54:33 I pull down on the feed and I get ping,
0:54:34 oh look, there’s a nice picture.
0:54:38 And ping, there’s notifications and comments, et cetera.
0:54:40 It’s that, I think about the constant,
0:54:42 do they say there’s constant dopamine hit?
0:54:43 Yeah.
0:54:44 They refer to, is it a dopamine hit?
0:54:46 Is that what’s happening when we’re being stimulated
0:54:48 by social media or a slot machine?
0:54:48 Yes.
0:54:51 And is there any harm in just a constant dopamine hit
0:54:52 all day, every day?
0:54:56 Well, I would not, I’m going to answer that question by saying,
0:54:59 I would not want to be addicted to gambling.
0:55:02 That gambling is addictive.
0:55:03 It’s hard to get away.
0:55:06 You lose all these other things that we just decided
0:55:09 were all good for you, including sleep,
0:55:12 including social connections, including exercise.
0:55:15 And I think that’s part of what social media is doing
0:55:16 for our young kids is not good.
0:55:20 That they’re not joining teams outside to be social
0:55:25 and interactive in that kind of,
0:55:27 now it seems like an old fashioned way,
0:55:30 but it’s very, very powerful way for development
0:55:32 and brain health.
0:55:33 I think I’m addicted to my phone.
0:55:38 And I often ask myself, is that a problem?
0:55:40 And from what you’ve said, it sounds like the problem is
0:55:44 what I sacrifice through that like addiction to that device.
0:55:45 Yes.
0:55:46 Is that, that the issue?
0:55:50 The issue is I sacrifice social connections, maybe movement.
0:55:50 Yeah.
0:55:52 You know, although I do work out every day,
0:55:55 but the brain is smart enough to know that
0:55:58 there’s no substitute for real human connections.
0:55:58 Absolutely.
0:56:00 Absolutely.
0:56:03 And that’s going to make me what I’m trying to,
0:56:06 I need you to help me.
0:56:10 Scare me out of this phone addiction that I think I have,
0:56:11 but I know many other people have as well.
0:56:17 So that is going to limit your potential for brain growth,
0:56:20 for brain plasticity.
0:56:24 It is going to limit your possibility for,
0:56:29 not to be dramatic, but joy in your life.
0:56:33 There’s different kinds of joy that you have in real person
0:56:36 to person social interactions that,
0:56:39 it feels pretty good on social media if you get lots of likes
0:56:41 and you know, but it’s not the same.
0:56:47 And I would, I would say that to scare yourself out,
0:56:50 you’re going to have to bite the bullet
0:56:54 and do a two week phone detox.
0:56:56 What would that do to you?
0:56:57 How would you feel?
0:56:59 I just could never imagine such a thing.
0:57:02 Well, which is a real shame, isn’t it really?
0:57:05 Because I just think about like my ancestors and my parents,
0:57:07 they must, they must think I’m so strange,
0:57:10 but it’s just the, just the way that like when my phone dies,
0:57:13 I’m like, there’s like, I’m like,
0:57:14 nervously waiting for it to come back on.
0:57:15 I’m like staring at it.
0:57:17 Like, oh my God, like, what am I going to do with myself?
0:57:21 Like, and I remember those studies they did on people
0:57:24 where they gave them the choice of either sitting alone
0:57:27 with their own thoughts or giving themselves an electric shock
0:57:29 and a huge amount of people in that study
0:57:31 actually would rather give themselves an electric shock
0:57:33 than just sit alone with their thoughts
0:57:36 because it’s some kind of stimulation.
0:57:37 That’s kind of how I think I am now.
0:57:39 Like, I don’t know what I’d do without my phone.
0:57:40 It’s really sad.
0:57:41 I know there’s people listening to me now
0:57:43 that think I’m an absolute like, I’m really sad,
0:57:45 but it’s just the, it’s the truth, you know?
0:57:48 And I do wonder what it’s doing to my brain,
0:57:49 but I think you’re right.
0:57:52 I think it’s actually what it’s doing to my like, my life.
0:57:57 The joy, the connections, being there to experience things.
0:58:03 I mean, that point that you made is a very profound one.
0:58:08 The not wanting to be alone with your thoughts
0:58:11 is the core of meditation.
0:58:13 Can you be alone with your thoughts
0:58:18 and focus on something, something organic, usually the breath,
0:58:21 but also a thought like loving kindness.
0:58:24 That is a very powerful practice to do.
0:58:25 And it, and it’s hard.
0:58:26 I find it hard too.
0:58:30 And I actually, I notice I find it harder when I’m,
0:58:34 when I’m using social media and when I’m using my phone more.
0:58:41 But I feel most creative and most imaginative
0:58:43 when I do practice that.
0:58:46 That is being alone with my thoughts.
0:58:47 What comes into mind?
0:58:51 How does my own imagination work,
0:58:54 which is very much dependent on the hippocampus as well.
0:58:57 It’s putting together all these things in your memory
0:59:00 in new and interesting ways that are unique for you
0:59:01 or unique for me.
0:59:05 And it doesn’t work the same if you are stimulating your brain
0:59:07 with social media all the time.
0:59:09 You, I mean, you wrote a book that kind of speaks
0:59:10 to what we’re talking about here.
0:59:12 You wrote a book about anxiety.
0:59:12 Yes, I did.
0:59:14 At 2021.
0:59:14 Yeah.
0:59:17 I think the, the U.S. version is called Good Anxiety, isn’t it?
0:59:17 Yeah.
0:59:19 It’s a slightly different title in the U.S., in the U.K.
0:59:19 Yeah.
0:59:23 Why did you write a book about anxiety?
0:59:26 I wrote a book about anxiety because I started to notice
0:59:30 my students getting much more anxious than they ever used to be.
0:59:33 And this was before the pandemic.
0:59:39 I mean, I had the idea to write this book in 2018, 2019.
0:59:42 And so at first I noticed in the students
0:59:45 they were getting so stressed out before finals.
0:59:46 They never did that before.
0:59:48 So, so many accommodations they were asking for.
0:59:51 And I’m like, well, what’s going on here?
0:59:53 But then I realized it wasn’t just them.
0:59:55 Like, I’m getting more anxious as well.
0:59:56 My friends are more anxious.
0:59:59 And I really wanted to dive into that.
1:00:02 I didn’t want to be anxious in that way.
1:00:05 Because part of me was like, oh, I’m just New Yorker.
1:00:06 I’m just anxious all the time, right?
1:00:08 Because that’s what New Yorkers are.
1:00:10 No, this has changed.
1:00:12 And we forget that before the pandemic,
1:00:15 there was still global warming.
1:00:17 There was still political issues that lots of people,
1:00:20 including me and all of my students, were worried about.
1:00:25 And that was the impetus for trying to dive in and ask,
1:00:29 well, I made my life happier with exercise.
1:00:32 What is the approach when it’s anxiety?
1:00:34 And not clinical anxiety.
1:00:35 I did not have clinical anxiety.
1:00:38 And the vast majority of my students didn’t have clinical anxiety.
1:00:40 They had what I called everyday anxiety.
1:00:44 Just worried about the things that are going on in the world.
1:00:46 And there were just more things to be worried about.
1:00:48 Is that normal? Is that human?
1:00:50 That is human, absolutely.
1:00:51 But is it human in the–
1:00:54 Is the quantity in which we experience it human?
1:00:57 I think it is.
1:00:58 I mean–
1:00:59 Because I think about my ancestors.
1:01:00 I go, they probably–
1:01:02 I don’t know. I always imagine my ancestors kind of,
1:01:03 I know, just chilling.
1:01:04 You know, like–
1:01:07 But they didn’t have global warming
1:01:11 where the ocean is about to get sucked up in plastic.
1:01:14 And the ozone is going to come down.
1:01:16 No worries like that at all.
1:01:19 But the everyday anxiety, for me, is like emails.
1:01:21 And WhatsApp.
1:01:25 Well, by everyday anxiety, I mean the anxiety
1:01:29 that people are feeling today that is not at the clinical level.
1:01:31 So all the things that we just mentioned,
1:01:35 global warming and wars in multiple places in the world,
1:01:39 all of that contributes to the higher level of anxiety.
1:01:42 And your ancestors in mind went through two world wars.
1:01:45 And that was anxiety-provoking.
1:01:47 No question about it.
1:01:50 But they weren’t also all the other things
1:01:53 that were contributing to it,
1:01:55 including the higher than, you know,
1:01:59 extremely high anxiety and suicide levels of our young people
1:02:04 that are, you know, strongly linked to social media.
1:02:06 So that’s another element.
1:02:08 What did you find then when you started uncovering
1:02:10 and trying to go on this search of figuring out,
1:02:14 you know, the nature of anxiety and what we can do about it,
1:02:16 did you first find that you’re right in your hypothesis
1:02:18 that it is increasing?
1:02:19 Yeah. Yeah.
1:02:20 How much? Do you know how much?
1:02:25 You know, it shifted over the time that I wrote
1:02:28 and published the book because I started in 2018,
1:02:31 and then it was published in the middle of the pandemic
1:02:37 in 2021, where anxiety levels went up approximately 20% worldwide.
1:02:41 So, but the social media anxiety,
1:02:45 that is going up in girls even more than 20%.
1:02:47 That’s kind of in parallel.
1:02:51 So I actually don’t know how to integrate those two levels,
1:02:53 but they’re both going in the same direction.
1:02:58 Why are women, young women, becoming more anxious
1:03:03 and suicidality amongst that age group is rapidly increased?
1:03:08 You know, I think that it’s that comparison
1:03:10 that is so easy to do.
1:03:14 And I see it in my own work at the university
1:03:16 that when I was going to college,
1:03:21 I had no idea what rank I was in number in the application,
1:03:23 but they could see that immediately.
1:03:25 They know exactly what number they are
1:03:26 in each and every class they take
1:03:28 in their whole high school class,
1:03:32 in their application to the five schools
1:03:36 that they applied to or 10 or 15 now that they’re applying to.
1:03:39 That gives a much higher level of stress
1:03:44 when you know those numbers immediately that we never had.
1:03:48 So there are stresses like that, that they’re experiencing.
1:03:50 More information, more…
1:03:54 It’s funny because more social connection,
1:03:55 but when I say social connection,
1:03:56 I don’t mean real world social connection.
1:04:00 I mean more followers and likes and people that can message me
1:04:03 and tell me something in BME or comment on my thing,
1:04:06 more noise, the volumes increased,
1:04:08 which seems to be driving more anxiety.
1:04:10 Where do we experience anxiety?
1:04:13 From a physiological standpoint, where is anxiety?
1:04:14 Because it feels like it’s in your chest.
1:04:20 So anxiety is kind of a full body experience.
1:04:26 And anxiety is strongly linked with the stress response.
1:04:29 So an anxiety provoking situation,
1:04:35 you meet somebody that you had a big fight with before.
1:04:36 Oh, I’m anxious.
1:04:38 I might have to speak to that person before.
1:04:46 That launches the stress response that is dependent
1:04:49 on what’s called the sympathetic nervous system.
1:04:51 And so this is where it becomes full body.
1:04:55 So what happens when your fight or flight system is activated?
1:04:58 Your heart rate goes up, your respiration goes up,
1:05:00 your irises get bigger.
1:05:02 So you can see everything and look out for that,
1:05:04 that annoying person that you’re worried about.
1:05:07 And blood is shunted from your digestion
1:05:10 and reproductive organs towards your muscles.
1:05:12 So you can fight or run away.
1:05:16 That’s what all of our ancestors evolved to protect us from.
1:05:22 Not the social media post, but the lion or the tiger
1:05:23 that could come and attack us.
1:05:27 So it made sense for that kind of stressor or that kind of threat.
1:05:32 Unfortunately, our body’s doing the same exact thing
1:05:37 when the nasty DM comes in from somebody I wasn’t sure who it is,
1:05:40 but they’re saying something really bad about something I care about a lot.
1:05:44 And we get this stress response, we get anxious because of that.
1:05:48 And somebody asked me, does that mean our brain is not very smart?
1:05:52 And the answer is our stress and our threat system is not very smart.
1:05:56 It isn’t differentiating between the line that could physically kill us
1:06:02 and the DM that might wound our pride, but will not kill us.
1:06:08 But it causes the same kind of stress response and anxiety response.
1:06:09 What do I do about that?
1:06:14 You have to learn how to turn the volume of your own anxiety down.
1:06:18 And part of that is, I’m not saying you have to not look at your DMs
1:06:21 or not look at social media.
1:06:24 There’s lots of ways to turn your anxiety down.
1:06:28 We’ve already talked about some of those approaches.
1:06:33 Exercise immediately decreases anxiety and depression levels.
1:06:35 And there, you don’t even have to get aerobic.
1:06:40 10 minutes of walking can significantly decrease your anxiety and depression levels.
1:06:45 That is a powerful tool that everybody can use right here right now.
1:06:47 Breath meditation.
1:06:51 Did you know that breath meditation, that is deep breathing,
1:06:55 is the oldest form of meditation?
1:07:00 Why? Because equal and opposite to that fight or flight response
1:07:05 that everybody seems to know about is the rest and digest part of your nervous system
1:07:09 called the parasympathetic nervous system that calms you down.
1:07:12 It slows your heart rate down, slows your respiration rate down
1:07:17 and shunts blood from your muscles towards your digestion and reproductive organs.
1:07:21 So you can do those weekend rest and digest kinds of things.
1:07:26 Well, everybody should be asking, “Well, do I have that system?”
1:07:28 Yes, everybody has that system.
1:07:29 Everybody has a parasympathetic nervous system.
1:07:31 How do I activate that?
1:07:35 The best and most effective way that you could activate that right now
1:07:38 is take three deep breaths.
1:07:41 Because that’s the only thing you have conscious control over
1:07:45 that can launch all the rest of that parasympathetic activity slow in your heart rate.
1:07:48 I can’t slow my heart rate by thinking about it.
1:07:52 Can I take three deep, slow breaths right now? Absolutely.
1:07:56 Monks, hundreds, if not thousands of years ago, realize that.
1:08:02 That is the thing that I can do immediately to slow my stress response down.
1:08:03 It’s very, very powerful.
1:08:05 Sadness.
1:08:06 Sadness.
1:08:12 Sadness can be linked with anxiety.
1:08:20 Sadness like anxiety is something that people, I think, would like to kick out of their lives
1:08:24 and just never have any more at all.
1:08:27 If I could get rid of sadness and anxiety, I would be the happiest person alive.
1:08:29 But would you?
1:08:37 Because my argument in “Good Anxiety,” my book, “Good Anxiety,” is that these prickly emotions,
1:08:41 these difficult emotions like anxiety, like sadness,
1:08:47 are really, really valuable because they’re focusing us on things that we should be paying
1:08:50 attention to, specifically anxiety.
1:08:51 It is a warning system.
1:08:52 Oh, there’s that person.
1:08:54 Oh, you didn’t have a good interaction.
1:08:56 You need to pay attention.
1:09:00 Now, should it throw you into an anxiety attack?
1:09:01 Perhaps not.
1:09:05 Use some of these techniques, like deep breathing and going for a walk.
1:09:08 But it is a warning system.
1:09:11 Why is this valuable?
1:09:12 Here’s why it’s valuable.
1:09:20 It’s valuable because when you know what you are worried about, your fears that your anxiety
1:09:27 focuses you on, it actually tells you about what you hold most dear in your life.
1:09:31 And that is something that we should all really want to know.
1:09:37 So if you’re a people pleaser, you are doing lots of things to maybe too many things to
1:09:44 please people, but that means that you care about personal interaction.
1:09:46 And I start with this one because I’m a people pleaser.
1:09:55 And I realized that people pleasing response and the anxiety that it does evoke is reminding me
1:09:59 that what’s very, very valuable to me is that interaction with people.
1:10:01 I care about that.
1:10:02 That’s a beautiful thing.
1:10:06 I value that in my life, in my personality.
1:10:09 I’m going to let you in on a little secret.
1:10:12 What is in the diary of a CEO cup?
1:10:16 This cup that sits in front of me when I interview these people, sometimes for three hours
1:10:18 and sometimes three people a day.
1:10:19 And the answer is this.
1:10:20 Perfected.
1:10:22 I invested in the company on Dragonstone.
1:10:28 And since then they’ve gone from an idea to the fastest growing energy drink in the UK.
1:10:32 It is a matcha energy drink and it is absolutely delicious.
1:10:34 But that’s not why I choose to drink it on this podcast.
1:10:38 The reason I choose to drink it is because it gives me what I call all day energy.
1:10:41 I don’t get the same crashes that I used to get with other energy drinks.
1:10:44 If you’re in the middle of a conversation or you’re in the middle of a talk on stage
1:10:48 or in the boardroom, the last thing you want to do is have a crash.
1:10:51 You don’t want jitters and you need focus.
1:10:53 And that is why they now sponsor this podcast.
1:10:57 Not only is it delicious, but it gives me a significant competitive advantage.
1:11:01 If you haven’t tried it, go down to a Tesco, go to a Waitrose or go online
1:11:05 and use the code diary 10 at checkout and you’ll get 10% off.
1:11:07 And when you do try it, let me know how you get on.
1:11:10 Do you think we could see love in the brain?
1:11:12 Can you see if someone’s in love in the brain?
1:11:14 If we scan the brain of someone that’s in love
1:11:16 when they’re interacting with their partner, could we see that?
1:11:25 Yes. In fact, they have scanned people who are in the throes of romantic love
1:11:31 and people that are in many years into a loving relationship.
1:11:36 And there are lots of reward areas that get activated
1:11:40 when you’re scanning the brain of somebody that is in the throes
1:11:43 of deep romantic love that is in the first few weeks.
1:11:44 You can’t get enough of the person.
1:11:45 You’re with them all the time.
1:11:47 You can’t stop thinking about them.
1:11:51 A lot of the reward areas are activated.
1:11:57 A lot of the social interaction areas including the insula part of the brain
1:12:02 right in the side here, just in the area near the ear,
1:12:05 deep into the cortex gets activated.
1:12:08 Doesn’t that mean then that if we don’t fall in love,
1:12:11 if we don’t have those feelings, that that part of our brain might shrink?
1:12:16 Because they say often things like you use it or you lose it.
1:12:18 They say neurons that fire together, wire together.
1:12:21 If I’m not in love, if I don’t have those social connections,
1:12:23 will the love part of my brain get smaller?
1:12:26 And would that make it more difficult to love in the future?
1:12:28 That’s a great question.
1:12:33 I think that that study has not been done, but absolutely.
1:12:40 If you don’t use that part of the brain, you will not gain the function.
1:12:44 And so, yeah, not using your love part of your brain
1:12:47 is nothing that I would ever recommend.
1:12:50 Some people, I guess, don’t have a choice.
1:12:56 Well, I guess they have a choice in the sense that they can do things.
1:13:00 They have optionality, but for whatever reason, some people don’t find love.
1:13:01 It’s just an interesting observation,
1:13:03 because in all other parts of the brain, you have to like…
1:13:04 Do you mean romantic love?
1:13:05 Romantic love, yeah.
1:13:09 But there’s all sorts of different kinds of love.
1:13:13 Deep friendship, it’s actually what I was going to say,
1:13:20 is that they tried to look at the difference between romantic love and maternal love,
1:13:22 or paternal love.
1:13:24 And it turns out that long-term relationships,
1:13:29 like romantic relationships of marriages that last for many years,
1:13:31 start out, of course, in this romantic phase.
1:13:38 But it turns into more of a maternal, paternal pattern
1:13:41 when you go farther and farther along.
1:13:43 That is a win.
1:13:45 That is not something wrong with your brain.
1:13:50 I think love does evolve over time,
1:13:52 and there’s many different kinds of love
1:13:59 beyond the romantic Hollywood and Disney kind of form of love.
1:14:01 So you can see the honeymoon phase in the brain.
1:14:01 Yes.
1:14:04 And then you can see the more mature love, I guess.
1:14:05 Yes.
1:14:06 In the brain, it’s interesting.
1:14:12 I guess the opposite of love, I guess, might be hate.
1:14:18 But I think when another sort of thing that people might think of as the opposite of love
1:14:20 would be rejection or heartbreak.
1:14:23 And through all of our lives, we encounter heartbreak in many forms.
1:14:27 We encounter romantic heartbreak, but also other forms of heartbreak.
1:14:30 As I read through your story, I could see moments in your story
1:14:34 where you encountered various types of heartbreak, grief.
1:14:38 You talked about your father passing away from Alzheimer’s.
1:14:39 Yes.
1:14:40 Well, he had a heart attack.
1:14:44 He had Alzheimer’s dementia when he passed away.
1:14:45 He died of a heart attack.
1:14:48 And just three months after your dad’s death,
1:14:51 your younger brother died of an unexpected heart attack each 50.
1:14:55 You say in your book Good Anxiety in Chapter 4,
1:14:58 you say the death was unfathomable.
1:14:58 Yeah.
1:15:04 As someone who studied the brain and therefore has a really strong understanding
1:15:11 of the physiology of the human mind and has also written a book about anxiety.
1:15:14 So you have this sort of two-pronged approach towards understanding feelings and emotions.
1:15:22 In those moments, what did you come to understand about the nature of emotion,
1:15:25 the most intense emotions and how they captivate us
1:15:28 and how we can find our path through the jungle?
1:15:31 Yeah, I like that word that I used.
1:15:33 It was unfathomable.
1:15:42 Both of those losses at the same time, it was hard to process.
1:15:45 And I remember the waves of grief that would come over.
1:15:49 It wasn’t constant, it would be like waves.
1:15:52 So I have one and then it would recede and I felt a little bit better.
1:15:55 But then unexpectedly it would come again.
1:16:02 And I’d never, thank goodness, experienced that before.
1:16:06 And it was in the middle of writing the book Good Anxiety.
1:16:12 And I put it aside because I couldn’t write when I was going through this terrible grief
1:16:16 and had to do something that I’d never, ever had to do.
1:16:19 And actually it was my biggest fear.
1:16:24 Unnamed biggest fear in my life was to have to give a eulogy.
1:16:31 I have a fear of uncontrollable crying in public
1:16:34 and I’d always been afraid of eulogies.
1:16:40 And I never had to give a eulogy and I had to give this eulogy for my brother.
1:16:44 Another unfathomable, how could that be happening?
1:16:55 And I got through that and I learned something in the process.
1:17:01 And I remember working out to try and make myself feel better during this time.
1:17:10 And the instructor said about the workout with great pain comes great wisdom.
1:17:18 And I just glommed on to that message because I was feeling great pain.
1:17:19 What was the wisdom?
1:17:21 Like I need to find some wisdom.
1:17:22 What is that wisdom?
1:17:27 And I realized, because I had to say something at this eulogy,
1:17:35 that the wisdom was that on the other side of that unfathomable grief that I was feeling,
1:17:40 the only reason why I was feeling that unfathomable grief
1:17:43 is because of the deep love that I had that it started with.
1:17:48 So if I didn’t love them as much, I wouldn’t have as deep a grief.
1:17:58 So in fact, the grief and the depth of it was a sign of the love that I had for them.
1:18:06 And that was the wisdom that I found and that was the solace that I found
1:18:10 and that was a message that it gave in that eulogy.
1:18:20 And then I became obsessed with the flip side of these awful emotions that we all go through.
1:18:25 Grief is this one because I had to go back and finish this book, Good Anxiety.
1:18:26 How was I going to do that?
1:18:33 The book was transformed by that event because I realized that if I could find the wisdom
1:18:42 and the power of the most horrible emotion, I’m going to say grief,
1:18:45 what is the flip side of anxiety?
1:18:46 What is the gift?
1:18:49 What is the superpower that comes from anxiety?
1:18:53 And I needed to find gifts and superpowers.
1:18:56 And that’s why the book got written in that way.
1:19:05 And I name superpowers that come from anxiety that was heightened after this terrible event.
1:19:09 But I found them and I used them all the time.
1:19:12 It was therapeutic, actually.
1:19:15 How did it change you, the loss of your brother and your father in such a short period of time?
1:19:19 How are you a different person because of those two events?
1:19:28 You realize that everybody’s going to feel these emotions sometime in their life.
1:19:38 And I can bring more empathy and compassion to those experiences for others.
1:19:44 And I remember, I never wanted to talk to people that had a loss.
1:19:46 I never knew what to say.
1:19:48 I knew I was going to say something wrong.
1:19:49 I just had no idea.
1:19:50 I felt lost.
1:19:56 And it is, I do feel wiser.
1:20:00 I feel like I have more empathy.
1:20:02 I have more knowledge.
1:20:04 Can I ask you a question?
1:20:11 If there was a pill that you could take to not feel the grief,
1:20:17 in the moment when you were in the throes of that grief,
1:20:18 would you have taken it?
1:20:22 And in hindsight now, would you have taken it?
1:20:28 I know I’m not a pill taker.
1:20:35 I wasn’t clinically, I didn’t feel like, oh, I can’t go about my life.
1:20:43 It was a terrible emotion, but I didn’t feel completely debilitated with it.
1:20:44 Other people do.
1:20:45 Maybe they would take the pill.
1:20:46 I would not take the pill.
1:20:52 And after the lessons that I learned from going through those emotions,
1:20:54 absolutely I would not take the pill.
1:21:04 And that was part of the lesson of writing this book, that anxiety is critical for us.
1:21:14 Because anxiety and sadness and anger are critical to help us appreciate those joyous
1:21:16 moments of our lives.
1:21:24 If we had no grief, no sadness, no anger ever, then every day it would just be mundane.
1:21:27 But it gives that value.
1:21:32 I mean, our highest highs are extra high because we know those lows.
1:21:38 And that also is probably how this grief that I experienced affects me.
1:21:41 I appreciate that, the good times even more.
1:21:47 As a neuroscientist who understands the brain and the systems and then sort of neural pathways
1:21:53 and all this stuff and how we think, and does that leave much room for spirituality?
1:21:56 And those kinds of things.
1:21:57 Are you spiritual?
1:21:57 I am.
1:22:04 And what does, because when some people think about spirituality, they think it’s the opposite of
1:22:06 neuroscience.
1:22:10 They think, if I spoke to some people, some people that I know, they think of
1:22:15 that the decisions and the feelings and the energies are outside of our body, not going
1:22:17 on in this ball of tofu.
1:22:23 And then some like hardcore people, scientists, will explain all of our experience through
1:22:24 this ball of tofu.
1:22:24 Yes.
1:22:25 Where do you sit?
1:22:29 So I’ve evolved over time.
1:22:37 So when I was a young scientist, no spirituality, no religion, everything can be described by
1:22:41 science, like I have to prove it, prove it to me.
1:22:43 I want to see the data.
1:22:51 I happily went through that phase for many, many years of my life until I realized,
1:22:58 I didn’t even realize, I think I needed something more in my life.
1:23:02 And then I realized, first there was a need.
1:23:04 There was a, then there was a realization.
1:23:14 Well, can I really prove that the only thing that is true is that what I can prove?
1:23:21 What if there are things beyond proving in the scientific method?
1:23:28 And I think there are things that in the spiritual realm, in the religious realm,
1:23:32 that absolutely could be true.
1:23:33 Could be true.
1:23:33 Could be true.
1:23:40 That cannot be solved, cannot be proven with the classic scientific method.
1:23:41 Things that you believe?
1:23:41 Yes.
1:23:45 What makes you believe them?
1:23:50 Because on one hand you said, you kind of want to, which is an element of that.
1:23:51 Yeah.
1:23:55 But as a, I’m interested as a scientist, as a neuroscientist, you must have been trained
1:23:56 to be able to explain.
1:23:57 That’s how you pass the exams.
1:24:00 You must be able to explain why you have these beliefs.
1:24:02 Do you, in that part of your life, do you just kind of say,
1:24:05 I’ve, I’ve felt it.
1:24:06 Is that the-
1:24:11 No, it’s, well, part of it, yes, I do feel it.
1:24:19 But it was the realization that the scientific method, in my opinion, is not the end all
1:24:23 and be all that I thought it was when I was a young scientist.
1:24:27 Can you prove that these other realms don’t exist?
1:24:33 And if they exist in ways that cannot be proved in, in a scientific method,
1:24:35 well, maybe your scientific method is wrong.
1:24:37 Is that, is that a possibility?
1:24:39 Have you had an experience that made you believe in another realm?
1:24:42 Have I had an experience?
1:24:50 I have, in my academic way, I have studied
1:25:01 texts that are the oldest texts that we know, the Bible, and I was raised in a,
1:25:06 actually, it was a half-Christian, half-Buddhist family.
1:25:14 And, but my, my, my core belief was Christianity.
1:25:18 And so, yeah, I, I, I go to church.
1:25:29 I, I really appreciate the power that, that religious beliefs bring to my life.
1:25:32 It actually really decreases my anxiety.
1:25:34 And that’s not the only reason why I did.
1:25:40 I just, I wasn’t looking, searching for an anti-anxiety kind of solution.
1:25:54 But I was looking for maybe something more than the scientific method in my life.
1:25:59 We’re going in one direction as a society.
1:26:02 Like more, yeah, I told you I’m basically addicted to my phone.
1:26:06 Screens, loneliness, less connection, less friends,
1:26:09 less people we can turn to in a time of crisis, according to all the studies.
1:26:14 And as we go further and further down that road, I think it’s making it more obvious of
1:26:16 what’s at the end, the other end of the street.
1:26:20 And it’s robbing us of something at a really deep level that I think I’m noticing more and more
1:26:21 as I grow older.
1:26:26 I think that’s actually why I want to have kids now, because I think I’m in search of that greater
1:26:30 meaning or purpose in my life beyond just like making more money or just, you know,
1:26:32 all the superficial stuff.
1:26:36 You said to me before we started speaking that you’re thinking a lot about community.
1:26:36 I am.
1:26:37 Why?
1:26:43 Because I think it is a balm to students and to everybody.
1:26:48 And I think those events that we can create that bring people together
1:26:52 and talking to each other and learning about each other are joyous events.
1:26:59 And I see it in me and in the students that come to these events.
1:27:07 It is clear that that is something that is a little bit unfamiliar to students right now,
1:27:09 but has immediate effect.
1:27:13 What is the one thing we haven’t spoke about regarding Betty,
1:27:15 the brain over there in the corner, but the brain in front of you.
1:27:18 The most important thing about the brain that we didn’t discuss.
1:27:24 You know, you only have one.
1:27:35 And we have an opportunity every single day to make it as healthy as it could be.
1:27:40 I watch my father pass away with Alzheimer’s dementia.
1:27:45 And we have elderly people in my family as well.
1:27:53 And it motivates me even more to keep my brain healthy,
1:27:59 to make as many friends as I can, to have as many connections as I can.
1:28:02 Because I want to be as happy as I can be for the rest of my life.
1:28:05 And I want to have a big fat, fluffy brain.
1:28:08 So you only have one.
1:28:13 And there are things you can do right now today to make it stronger.
1:28:19 Wendy, thank you so much.
1:28:22 Thank you for the way that you deliver.
1:28:26 I think is so deep rooted in a really undeniable passion.
1:28:31 And you’re on a real mission to make other people live better lives.
1:28:34 And I think that’s something that deserves to be highly commended.
1:28:39 It’s so apparent in everything you do that you’re so focused on helping others
1:28:40 in a way that I don’t always see.
1:28:43 And that comes from, you know, reading through your story.
1:28:46 I can see the pivotal moments throughout your story that sent you on that mission.
1:28:48 And I do describe it as a mission.
1:28:49 These two books are fantastic.
1:28:52 You wrote the book in 2000 or you published it in 2015 called
1:28:54 Healthy Brain, Happy Life.
1:28:57 And then your second book, which came out in America called Good Anxiety,
1:29:02 which is a phenomenal book that really helps to reframe how we think about anxiety.
1:29:05 And I think that reframing helps us experience it differently.
1:29:09 But also, shall I say, dare I say, be grateful for the signal,
1:29:11 the lessons that it’s there to teach us, the wisdom that it gives us.
1:29:15 We have a closing tradition on this podcast where the last guest leaves a question
1:29:16 for the next guest, not knowing who they’re leaving it for.
1:29:19 The question left for you is in this book.
1:29:25 What do you think is the best quality of humanity?
1:29:31 Compassion.
1:29:34 And what does that mean?
1:29:36 Compassion means
1:29:53 feeling for the experience of others, both good and bad.
1:29:59 So I can experience your joy compassionately and I could experience your grief compassionately.
1:30:04 I think that is because I’ve been thinking so much about connection and community,
1:30:13 that function of or emotion of compassion is really top of mind for me.
1:30:15 Wendy, thank you.
1:30:16 Thank you.
1:30:41 [Music]

0:00:07 All marital problems stem from two things and that’s what about sex how often is
0:00:13 sex the issue in divorce oh my god James sextant the world’s number one divorce
0:00:18 lawyer specializing in billionaires athletes and celebrities for over two
0:00:23 decades giving him a unique insight into how relationships fail and succeed
0:00:29 there’s about a 56% chance that your marriage will end in divorce yet 86% of
0:00:33 people remarry within five years but most people have no idea what they are
0:00:38 getting themselves and a great example of that would be prenups who gets what
0:00:42 when they break up correct and the most shocking prenup I’ve ever seen said
0:00:47 that for every 10 pounds the wife gained she would lose $10,000 a month in
0:00:52 alimony 10 pounds of weight and that was enforceable good money issues lead to
0:00:55 divorce oh it’s controversial what’s the quickest someone’s gone from marriage
0:00:59 to divorce 48 hours who cheats more men or women you’ll be shocked to hear
0:01:03 it’s have you ever seen violence during a divorce they ran her over four times
0:01:07 and stabbed her Jesus Christ so here’s the question then should we get married
0:01:11 and then do you think love is a terrible idea I think it’s insane to love
0:01:18 anything because someday that’ll be gone and this thing’s gonna break my heart
0:01:21 no matter what I lose
0:01:30 but that’s not a reason not to love and I think there’s something really
0:01:35 important there congratulations die-over-seer gang we’ve made some
0:01:40 progress 63% of you that listen to this podcast regularly don’t subscribe
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0:01:53 subscribe button it helps this channel more than you know and the bigger the
0:01:57 channel gets as you’ve seen the bigger the guests get thank you and enjoy this
0:02:00 episode
0:02:08 James I’ve never spoken to somebody that does what you do what do you do I’m a
0:02:14 divorce lawyer I’m a divorce lawyer who represents people in contested divorce
0:02:18 and custody proceedings in court so it’s the fact that you’ve never spoken to
0:02:22 someone who does what I do is a good thing it means that either you’ve not
0:02:25 married or it means that you’ve successfully married to the point where
0:02:29 you would never end up in my office by the time someone sets foot in my office
0:02:34 something’s gone terribly wrong in their life because no one ever meant to meet
0:02:39 me no one ever meant to be in my office ever what is the probability that
0:02:44 someday I do meet somebody like you and not in this context well if you marry
0:02:50 there’s about a 56% chance that your marriage will end in divorce now that
0:02:54 doesn’t take into consideration how many people may consult with a divorce
0:02:57 lawyer because they’re having difficulty in their marriage but they choose
0:03:00 subsequent to meeting me not to divorce for some particular reason whether
0:03:04 that’s they don’t want to part with half of their funds or they’ve just decided
0:03:08 it’s easier to stay miserable and with a person or they’re staying together for
0:03:11 the kids but they want to know what their rights were so if you marry the
0:03:16 chances of meeting someone like me are more likely than not if we look at it
0:03:21 that way because it’s more than 50% so it’s a it’s a high number you know but
0:03:24 if we define failure as all of the other things you’ve described there where we
0:03:26 kind of stay together but we’re miserable or we stay together for some
0:03:32 other reason how what percentage of marriages on that basis do you think
0:03:37 actually fail I mean if we consider the pot if we consider failure staying
0:03:42 together miserable for the children or staying together for financial economic
0:03:48 reasons and then we add that to the 56% that end in divorce then I mean it would
0:03:52 be very hard to track that but I I think it’s generous to think it’s another 20
0:03:56 percent probably but but I mean think about what that adds up to that means
0:04:02 that you’ve got you’ve got something that fails 70 75 percent of the time
0:04:07 that’s a that’s a negligent activity that’s you know that’s that is more
0:04:13 likely than not to cause significant harm in your life so I don’t say that to
0:04:17 sound like the grim reaper when it comes to marriage I actually really think
0:04:21 marriage is a lovely thing and I get misty-eyed at weddings like anybody and
0:04:27 not just for you know future business purposes I I think I think the
0:04:32 statistic that’s even more interesting to me than how many marriages end in
0:04:37 divorce or how many people stay together miserable is that 86% of people who
0:04:44 divorce remarry within five years so think about that now you’ve you’ve done
0:04:50 this thing it’s failed you’ve gone through this difficult process of having to
0:04:57 undo it and now within five years 86% of people remarry I mean so that that tells
0:05:02 you how important this is to us as humans how drawn to this idea this
0:05:09 technology of marriage we are and and that to me is fascinating because I’ve
0:05:15 often said like I’m not sure what marriage was designed what problem is
0:05:22 marriage designed to solve see the fact that it takes this long to think if I
0:05:28 said to you what what purpose does this technology this mug what does it serve
0:05:31 well that’s easy right it’s hard to drink out of your hands and someone would
0:05:34 have to keep coming up and pouring things in our hands okay well that’s pretty
0:05:38 straightforward what problem does this solve well that’s easy right we want to
0:05:41 get you know the ringstains around we get yelled at by our significant other
0:05:45 for not using a coaster so these are easy things but marriage something so
0:05:50 ubiquitous that it’s assumed it’s assumed if you’re dating someone for a few
0:05:56 years and you say guess what we’re getting married everyone goes well of
0:06:00 course phenomenal congratulations that’s great of course you’re gonna do that you
0:06:04 know you make an honest woman of her of course whereas if you say you know we’ve
0:06:07 been together for three four years we decided we’re not gonna get married people
0:06:10 go what’s wrong with this guy he’s got intimacy issues he’s not getting you
0:06:15 know what’s the problem that you don’t want to get married whereas rationally the
0:06:19 response should be you know oh yeah we’re getting married what are you
0:06:22 kidding me why are you doing that it’s like someone saying I’m gonna go sky
0:06:27 diving it’s like wait are you crazy that’s a dangerous thing to do you know
0:06:31 and it’s not I mean listen to skydiving it’s not like a 75 percent 76 percent of
0:06:36 people die who are skydiving so the truth is like it it it makes very little
0:06:44 sense to me that marriage is assumed to be a thing you will do when in fact we
0:06:51 as a species are so unbelievably bad at it that sort of 86 percent that then get
0:06:57 remarried after divorce are they then have they learned from their mistakes are
0:07:02 they better this time it’s different this time it’s different it’s this time I’m
0:07:06 really in love that other time when I thought I was in love that wasn’t it
0:07:11 this time it’s different it really it’s a it’s a blind spot you know and again
0:07:15 where does it come from you’d have to ask people smarter than me you know it
0:07:20 could be neuroscience it could be the realm of a real deep social psychology
0:07:24 it could just be a cognitive bias I have no idea it could be a delusion brought
0:07:30 on by inadequate lighting you know but but the whatever it is we go oh yeah
0:07:35 but this one’s different this way I did a prenup last week for a guy who went
0:07:39 through the one of the ugliest divorces I’ve ever seen and and that’s not
0:07:43 hyperbole like I’ve been doing this for 25 years just to say so for me to say
0:07:48 the ugliest divorce I’ve ever seen is that’s amazing that’s like that’s a
0:07:52 really big debt’s like a Michelin chef saying this was the best meal I’ve ever
0:07:57 had so this guy had a horrific divorce that lasted four or five years he’s
0:08:04 remarrying a woman 30 years younger than him who he met four months ago and when
0:08:10 I said to him as artfully intactfully as I could you know you’ve only known this
0:08:14 person for a short time and you know have you thought about maybe just you
0:08:17 know being a little cautious in terms of who you’ve seen how difficult a divorce
0:08:22 can be you know do you think maybe it might be he tells oh no this is no I’ve
0:08:26 never felt anything like this I’ve never been this in love I’ve never been so
0:08:32 connected with someone we just get each other and you know that it would be very
0:08:37 indelicate and rude for me to say like snap out of it man you got to get your
0:08:43 like really you know bring your logical brain to this this equation do not
0:08:47 bring the part of you that’s just filled with romance and has Christmas in your
0:08:51 eyes like really you got to look at this honestly do you see a lot of gold
0:08:57 diggers do you see a lot of gold digger sort of patterns I you see
0:09:01 someone that’s incredibly wealthy you see someone that’s 40 years younger than
0:09:06 them yeah yeah I see a lot of that I mean I you know I’m hesitant to say
0:09:11 gold diggers because I think that has a a pejorative like built into it that
0:09:16 somehow I think that that people bring different things to the table in
0:09:21 relationships I think love is an economy and I don’t I’m not saying that in a
0:09:27 way that that devalues love I think that love is a verb I think that love is an
0:09:32 emotion and I think that love is an economy you know there there is a giving
0:09:37 and taking of value and and that can be incredibly symbiotic you know that can
0:09:43 be incredibly healthy and wonderful that that you know I am way too serious and
0:09:46 the person who I’m with is going to bring lightness and levity to the
0:09:49 relationship and I’m going to help them be a little more serious and they’re
0:09:53 going to help me lighten up you know and I’m hard charging and hard working and
0:09:58 everything’s like 10 moves ahead and and my partner’s gonna like help me calm
0:10:03 down and help me you know not be so hard charging and be a little softer be a
0:10:07 little kinder and rest my head and give me a sort of warm place to do that like
0:10:12 that’s beautiful we’re each bringing something different so if I’m a powerful
0:10:19 hard-working financially successful financially secure man and I meet a
0:10:25 young beautiful woman who has energy and excitement and who has tremendous gifts
0:10:29 but doesn’t have the resources to be able to do much with that you know like
0:10:34 she’s a talented artist but you know she’s busy working you know a thankless
0:10:38 awful job you know like slinging cappuccinos you know and and she she’s
0:10:43 not able to in this prime of her life focus on this thing she’s so talented
0:10:48 at and I can say to her hey listen why don’t you focus on that and I have
0:10:52 resources and abundance of them and I’m happy to share them with you and and
0:10:56 feel like I’m part of your success and you in turn are part of my success
0:11:01 because you give me this wonderful respite from the chaos of my work and and
0:11:06 like I don’t think that that’s a dishonest economy I don’t think that so
0:11:09 like to say a gold digger sort of implies like oh she’s in it for the
0:11:12 money and it’s okay well I’m in it for the beauty you know so does that mean
0:11:17 I’m a horrible shallow person or is beauty beautiful is beauty something you
0:11:23 want to be around and and if we’re honest about the interaction how is that
0:11:28 predatory how is that unfair to either of us you know if we’re honest about it
0:11:33 like what’s harder for me to deal with is when I have a client who is you know
0:11:40 150 pounds overweight five foot seven and and there is just nothing about him
0:11:46 that aesthetically or even personality wise a woman would go oh that’s my guy
0:11:52 but he’s a billionaire you know and and he’s got a young gorgeous woman who’s
0:11:57 allegedly madly in love with him and he really believes that it’s his personality
0:12:01 and it’s nothing to do with the fact that he’s a billionaire or that that is a
0:12:07 very small consideration that feels to me like the worst kind of delusion you
0:12:10 know whereas you could very honestly say like yeah we each bring different
0:12:13 things to the table we each bring different things to each other’s lives
0:12:19 and then yeah so it is it is a quote-unquote gold digger but you know
0:12:27 it’s also a man who wants to to to buy the company of someone who might not
0:12:30 otherwise be interested in him if he wasn’t so successful so I think there’s
0:12:33 a there’s a give and a take in that relationship I think that’s very fair
0:12:38 have you have you seen examples of the latter example where you describe that
0:12:43 billionaire where there’s not many redeeming qualities where they’re heading
0:12:50 towards marriage they don’t yet have a prenup you’re maybe advising them that
0:12:54 they should get a prenup and they’re not interested because they’re so deluded
0:12:57 by the belief that the person is interested in their wonderful personality
0:13:04 or yeah so so the prenup conversation is a really interesting one because I do
0:13:09 a lot of prenups sure prenuptial agreement is a contract between two
0:13:14 people that defines the rule set essentially for their marriage so so
0:13:17 marriage when we talk about marriage you know people tend to just sort of use
0:13:21 the word marriage and they’re actually talking about a number of different
0:13:26 things like in some context marriage is a spiritual commitment right it’s a
0:13:31 religious commitment it’s tied to in Catholicism it’s a sacrament in in
0:13:37 Judaism it’s a covenant with God you know in Islam it has its own status so
0:13:43 marriage exists as a religious concept socially we have a definition of
0:13:47 marriage right like I am married to this person we have married our destinies to
0:13:52 each other we have agreed that we are each other’s person and then marriage
0:13:58 has a specific legal definition and my job as a divorce lawyer is to take that
0:14:03 piece apart for someone or to create protections for people who are
0:14:07 contemplating entering into that legal status so like you you’ve been to
0:14:12 weddings right I’m sure you’ve never at the end of the wedding said great guys
0:14:15 I had a wonderful time the cake was delicious I need to see the paperwork
0:14:19 can I can I see the license now I just want to make sure everything was done
0:14:22 properly and that there were witnesses you’ve never said that you’ve never said
0:14:27 to your parents can I see your marriage license I’d like to make sure everything’s
0:14:32 in order here that’s not how it works so we don’t do that so you could go have
0:14:37 a wedding and tell people that you’re married and never actually legally
0:14:41 married you could just tell people that you’re married you don’t check people’s
0:14:45 paperwork like you can just wear a ring if you want to and similarly if you
0:14:49 don’t wear a ring it doesn’t mean you’re not legally married like you could be
0:14:51 legally married and still take your ring off and you’re still legally married if
0:14:57 it was just as easy as taking the ring off I’d be out of a job so marriage is a
0:15:01 legal status that’s one of the meanings of marriage and a prenuptial agreement
0:15:08 the way I would describe it is two people deciding that they having picked
0:15:13 each other out of eight billion people to choose from in the world are in a
0:15:18 better position to make the rules that will govern the economics of their
0:15:23 relationship than the legislature would be then politicians would be and
0:15:27 anyone who’s ever been to the Department of Motor Vehicles or who’s ever been
0:15:32 to you know any government agency very rarely would you interact with a
0:15:36 government agency and go we should definitely put these people in charge of
0:15:40 our family life like they’re gonna do a great job they’re really crushing it
0:15:46 you know like that’s not something people yet most people who are married have
0:15:50 almost no idea what legal rights and obligations were conferred on them by
0:15:53 getting married they just have no idea it’s the most legally significant thing
0:15:58 they’re going to do in their life other than die and they have no idea what
0:16:02 the rights and obligations are and those rights and obligations can change so
0:16:08 like politics and the legislature and the way that rules that govern the
0:16:13 spousal support rights child support rights the division of property those
0:16:18 are subject to change by government change so for example in the United
0:16:22 States alimony spousal support maintenance whatever we want to call it
0:16:26 which is a payment a person makes to their spouse when there’s been an
0:16:31 economic disparity in the marriage and now they’re getting divorced that used
0:16:35 to be tax deductible it used to have no formula it was at the discretion of a
0:16:39 judge then in 2016 Trump came into office and he said yeah I’m not letting it be
0:16:43 tax deductible anymore so completely changed now you’re already married at
0:16:48 this point and now the rules about what governs your marriage have changed so
0:16:53 there aren’t a lot of contracts in the world that people could enter into that
0:16:56 the terms could wildly change due to circumstances beyond your control and
0:17:02 you’re still in that same contract so prenuptial agreements are designed for
0:17:06 two people who at that moment have an abundance of affection for each other
0:17:10 if they didn’t then there’s no reason that they should be getting married that
0:17:15 they make up a rule set that’s going to govern their relationship and that
0:17:18 typically as we see it in movies and such and we hear about it in culture is
0:17:22 really deciding who gets what when they break up right correct now it’s hard to
0:17:29 say in advance who gets what when we break up sometime in the future because
0:17:34 we don’t know what we’re gonna have in 10 years in 20 years so what do you do
0:17:40 you create structures like you create you know I refer to the simplest prenup
0:17:45 as a yours mine and ours which is if it’s in my name whether it’s an asset or
0:17:49 liability it’s mine free from any claim by you free from any obligation to you
0:17:53 if it’s in your name it’s yours free from any claim by me any obligation to me
0:17:58 ours if it’s in our joint names then we’re equally responsible for it if
0:18:03 it’s an obligation or we equally are entitled to half the value of it if it’s
0:18:09 an asset that to me just creating those three buckets now here’s the problem you
0:18:14 create those three buckets you both sign off on it and you get married you can’t
0:18:18 just set it and forget it now you actually have to have conversations with
0:18:22 this person that you’re married to which theoretically you should be able to do
0:18:26 right like if you’ve decided this is gonna be my primary relationship this
0:18:32 is the person I’m gonna tie my destiny to you should be able to talk about hey I
0:18:36 just got this big bonus at work I’m gonna put this much in my sole account and
0:18:39 I’m gonna put this much in the joint account and they should be able to say
0:18:41 if you’re the other person well why are you putting so much of it in your
0:18:45 personal account like are things weird with us or something or is there you
0:18:49 know have some conversation again about why are we marrying it’s a it’s that
0:18:56 economy concept which is look what do I owe you if I marry you I’d like to know
0:19:01 that in advance because people say to me all the time you know well I married
0:19:06 this person and when we got married he had nothing he had nothing and he built
0:19:11 his business while he was married to me and I was very you know there for him
0:19:16 while he was building it so therefore I believe I’m entitled to half the value
0:19:21 of that business now that’s a logical argument I don’t know that I agree with
0:19:28 it but it’s logical but keep going with that logic right so if that was true and
0:19:32 I built this business and my wife who was married to me while I was building
0:19:38 that business she helped make that okay well her mother and father helped make
0:19:43 who she is so I owe them something right like I because if they hadn’t done what
0:19:46 they did I wouldn’t have her and if I didn’t have her I wouldn’t have my
0:19:51 business so how much do I owe them and you know now that I think about it her
0:19:56 grandmother definitely influenced to her mother was which influenced who she was
0:20:01 which influenced what she did for me so just can you let me know in advance how
0:20:05 far down the chain do I owe people and how much do I owe them they can’t all get
0:20:10 half so did they get half of the half of the half or do I like and and if this is
0:20:16 the logic that we’re gonna follow then I would like to know in advance what that
0:20:21 is because there are no other transactions where if you went in to
0:20:26 purchase a car and you said how much is this car and they said money he said well
0:20:30 how much you know it’s a good amount okay I again we just keep talking in
0:20:35 abstractions I’d like to know what does this add up to how much is it you know
0:20:39 and even if you can’t make it a dollar number it’s x percent of last year’s
0:20:44 earnings or like give me a formula something to tie it to and at least have
0:20:49 that conversation because then you can decide am I gonna sign up for this thing
0:20:53 or not you must meet a lot of people who are in a relationship where one of the
0:20:58 people doesn’t want to have a prenup yes because I because I when I think about
0:21:01 having a prenup I’m with a woman at the moment we’ve been together for five
0:21:06 years and frankly if I said to her I want to get a prenup she would be all for it
0:21:10 she would that’s the type of person she is she’ll be a phrase doesn’t care she’d
0:21:14 be all for excellent done well but I can imagine in other relationships I’d be
0:21:18 nervous even say the words because immediately you’re thinking about how
0:21:22 you’re getting out before you get in yeah well and you know there’s a lot to
0:21:27 do that there’s a lot to unpack there so the first thing I would say is all
0:21:32 marriages end they end in death or they end in divorce but they all end right and
0:21:37 so if you said I’m gonna get life insurance it would be foolish for
0:21:41 someone who’s with you to say wait are you planning on dying soon like it no but
0:21:45 in the event that I do I’d like to make sure that things are taken care of in a
0:21:48 certain way and in the event that I do there’s gonna be enough things to be
0:21:51 upset and sad about for the people around me so I’d like them to have one less
0:21:56 thing you know and I also know that there’s a possibility I hope I won’t
0:21:59 but there’s a possibility that I’m gonna die in an hour so I’d really hope it
0:22:04 doesn’t happen but I can’t say it’s definitely not gonna happen so divorce
0:22:08 you know when we look at statistics like that it’s okay to say hey look you
0:22:13 know what I hope this never happens but if it did what do we owe each other you
0:22:16 know what would you need like it’s not just a conversation about what do I
0:22:21 want to keep what am I entitled to keep it’s also what would you need have you
0:22:24 seen it break down a marriage because someone mentioned a prenup have you
0:22:28 seen it yeah I’ve seen marriage I’ve seen marriages that were scheduled to
0:22:33 happen not happen because the prenup discussion happened but more often than
0:22:39 not I’ve seen the threat of not marrying someone because they want you to sign a
0:22:45 prenup cause a person to fold in their request for a prenup which to me is a
0:22:49 really bad start for a marriage so I’ve had a lot of clients who come in say
0:22:52 look I want to have a prenup I have a lot of confidence in this marriage I
0:22:57 really love this person but I would like to you know have a prenup in place
0:23:01 and I draft a prenup for them and it has reasonable terms and they give it to
0:23:05 their fiance and their fiance says yeah I’m not signing that it’s not happening
0:23:11 and instead of saying okay like then you’re choosing for us to not marry you
0:23:16 know that’s okay but like I love you and I’d love to marry you but this is
0:23:21 something that I need in order to feel comfortable with that they they just go
0:23:25 okay yeah never mind and they walk away from it and and because they’re
0:23:29 intimidated and I think that’s it that’s an awful way to start a marriage like I
0:23:35 think that’s much worse than having a discussion about difficult things like I
0:23:39 don’t think you would think it’s irresponsible you’ve been with with a
0:23:45 woman for five years to say to her let’s say a year ago or let’s say four years
0:23:52 ago to say to her you know we’re gonna get in a fight sometime that’s gonna
0:23:55 happen like we’re gonna disagree about something it’ll probably be my fault I’ll
0:23:59 probably say something stupid I do that sometimes so when we get in a fight
0:24:03 someday which again I hope we don’t I’ll do everything I can and not ever get an
0:24:07 argument with you but at some point some’s gonna you’re gonna say some it’s
0:24:10 gonna hurt my feelings I’m gonna take it the wrong way I’ll say something you’ll
0:24:13 take it the wrong way or maybe I’m just an idiot sometimes I’ll be in a bad
0:24:15 mood and I’ll say something or I’ll have too many drinks and I’ll say something
0:24:22 to upset you when that happens how do you how do you like to fight like what’s
0:24:27 best do you need a minute like do you need a minute to calm down do you need
0:24:31 to like sleep on it or do you need to like we got to fix this right now I
0:24:34 can’t go to bed angry like I won’t be able to sleep I won’t be able to function
0:24:38 like like do we have to address it right then and there because you know the best
0:24:43 time to talk about how we’re gonna argue when we’re not arguing you know the
0:24:48 worst time to learn how to fight in the middle of a fight that’s the worst time
0:24:53 to learn how to fight so I like a prenup I think a prenup can be a very
0:24:59 romantic thing because it’s basically saying look I love you you love me we
0:25:02 want this thing to work or else we wouldn’t be signing up for it but in the
0:25:07 event it breaks down you have a right to know what you’re entitled to I have a
0:25:10 right to know what I’m entitled to we both have an interest in making sure
0:25:14 that we both have the things we need so that neither of us feels like we’re
0:25:18 crawling out of this relationship instead of walking out of it like if I
0:25:24 lose you I’m gonna have a lot more to be sad about than my stuff but boy let me
0:25:28 tell you not knowing where I’m gonna live or how I’m gonna pay my bills that’s
0:25:32 gonna add a layer of pain and complexity to what is undoubtedly gonna be a
0:25:36 really hard situation so let’s take that off of each other let’s let’s know
0:25:41 that because I don’t ever want the person who lays their head on the pillow
0:25:46 next to me to be there because they don’t want to get divorced I would rather
0:25:50 that it be that they like having me there next to them that their life is
0:25:55 better because I’m there that they feel like I bring value to their life and
0:26:00 they bring value to mine not well I don’t want to go through all that in that
0:26:03 case of that person you referenced there where they came to you for a prenup
0:26:06 their partner gave them an ultimatum and said listen no I’m not signing
0:26:11 that how do you kind of draw the line between being a lawyer versus like a
0:26:17 therapist or an advisor a sort of like a relationship advisor yeah I mean I have
0:26:22 to tell you it’s a very seamless I don’t I don’t think it’s easy to
0:26:26 distinguish between we’re attorneys and counselors at law my I have an
0:26:31 undergraduate degree in psychology and I think I use it as much as I use my law
0:26:37 degree because this is so personal that it’s very hard to not give human advice
0:26:43 while I’m giving legal advice and I’m dealing in the clay of you know human
0:26:47 emotion and human human connection and human frailty and human emotional
0:26:52 complexity I thought pre-nups were illegal I thought they were like people
0:26:56 went and got them but they when it comes to enforcement enforcement they don’t
0:26:59 hold up you know it could be true in the UK but certainly not in the USA that’s
0:27:03 they are they are enforceable they are binding sometimes they’re crazy how
0:27:08 enforceable they are I really like is because the nature of a prenup is as
0:27:12 long as it was not what’s called unconscionable unconscionable is a
0:27:20 contract that is so unfair that no fair dealing person would offer it and no
0:27:26 sane person would accept it so that’s what unconscionability is so you have
0:27:33 to be a contract is to be unconscionable for it to be set aside okay now I
0:27:40 have seen some prenups that were in their interpretation unconscionable
0:27:46 meaning you know at the time they entered into it he had nothing and she had
0:27:51 nothing and now they’re getting divorced and under the terms of this he’s going
0:27:55 to walk out with a hundred million dollars and she’s going to walk out with
0:28:00 almost nothing but as long as it was not unconscionable at the time it was
0:28:07 made if it’s unconscionable in its performance it’s still binding so I
0:28:15 have seen the outcome of prenups sometimes be shockingly unfair but you
0:28:18 have a right to contract as long as it wasn’t fraud as long as it wasn’t
0:28:22 duress or undue influence or if someone was under the you know influence of
0:28:26 drugs or alcohol when they signed off on it it’s a binding contract because we
0:28:31 believe in in in human autonomy and agency and the right to make decisions
0:28:35 about your life and your future so is that exactly example really and is that
0:28:39 the the most shocking when you’ve seen you know the most shocking prenup I’ve
0:28:47 ever seen which was enforceable had a provision that said that for every ten
0:28:52 pounds the wife gained in the marriage she would lose ten thousand dollars a
0:28:58 month in alimony ten pounds of weight yes yes so so it was a very wealthy man
0:29:02 who was wearing marrying a very attractive woman but he was very
0:29:06 concerned that she was going to become less attractive and he was going to
0:29:13 become more wealthy so his solution to this was in the prenuptial agreement he
0:29:16 wanted a clause that said she would get if they divorced she was gonna get like
0:29:24 seventy thousand dollars a month for alimony but for every ten pounds she
0:29:29 gained from the date of marriage she would forfeit ten thousand a month worth
0:29:34 of alimony and it was designed to sort of create an incentive that she would
0:29:41 remain thin and that was enforceable meaning they tried to challenge and set
0:29:47 aside that provision and the court said this is a disgusting provision I don’t
0:29:52 know why you married this person but it’s enforceable it’s a contract the two
0:29:55 of you signed it and you had a right to sign it and you agreed to these rules
0:29:58 and they may be ridiculous rules but you agreed to them and you have a right to
0:30:04 do that do you think that was love again I think it’s a kind of love I think it’s
0:30:08 a form of love I is it a form of love I’d be interested in no I think it’s very
0:30:13 shallow in some ways there’s something very honest about it I mean you can’t
0:30:18 argue with the fact that there’s something very upfront about it he was
0:30:22 making very clear and putting in writing here’s the value you bring to this
0:30:29 relationship you know I consider your physical appearance vitally important to
0:30:34 this relationship by the way don’t skip the other side of that equation yeah she
0:30:39 was gonna get seventy thousand dollars a month that’s very impressive number so
0:30:45 you know I think she she also understood there was a value to be attached to him
0:30:52 as well you know and it’s so it’s is it something I would be interested in on
0:30:57 either side of that equation no but do I have a right to say to someone that’s
0:31:01 not love I don’t think I have a right to say that to someone I think that if this
0:31:06 is an economy the two of you have agreed on that you know as a lawyer see my my
0:31:10 job as a lawyer is not to look like I don’t look at it that way but I look at
0:31:17 the engineering of it so like if I’m representing her in that transaction all
0:31:21 I could think is okay so we’re gonna want her baseline weight to be as high as
0:31:26 possible so I’m gonna want her to have pennies in her pockets after at the day
0:31:29 we signed the prenup because you’d have to establish a baseline right because if
0:31:33 you say gaining 10 pounds you’d have to establish a baseline weight on the date
0:31:36 of the marriage so she was weighed on the day of the marriage well in or about
0:31:39 the date of the marriage the parties acknowledge that on honor about the date
0:31:43 of marriage she weighed approximately x pounds so if I’m her I want that to be as
0:31:47 high as possible so I’m gonna be putting pennies in my pockets and eating as many
0:31:51 cheeseburgers as I can before the weigh-in now we’re getting divorced I’m
0:31:56 gonna be like a wrestler I’m gonna be in the sauna I’m gonna be sweating as much
0:32:00 as I can I’m gonna take diuretics I’m gonna eat nothing but like grilled
0:32:03 vegetables for a week or two you know and I’m gonna I’m gonna take off every
0:32:08 ounce of clothing I can because I want to minimize my weight this is why this
0:32:11 is why lawyers don’t get invited to parties because that’s how we analyze
0:32:15 problems like I didn’t hear that and go what is the nature of their coupling I
0:32:19 looked at it and I went oh I could play with that I could work I get it I could
0:32:22 do whoever I’m representing in that transaction I could figure out a way to
0:32:27 you know kind of make that work you become a coach kind of is I mean it it
0:32:33 turns into an engineering question as opposed to a human question I heard
0:32:37 about this thing when I was reading your book of these and also watching some of
0:32:39 your stuff online that I didn’t know existed which was fidelity contracts
0:32:44 fidelity clauses yeah yeah yeah so it’s something people include in pre-nuptial
0:32:48 agreements and also sometimes in what’s called a post-nuptial agreement so a
0:32:51 post-nuptial agreement you know nuptial meaning marriage pre meaning before
0:32:56 marriage post meaning after marriage so if you didn’t get a prenup but your
0:33:01 marriage for whatever reason becomes fragile maybe someone learns of an
0:33:05 affair or maybe you’re starting to have difficulties with each other but you
0:33:10 don’t want to divorce but you’d like there to be some clarity as to if we
0:33:15 divorce what will the rules be you can do something called a post-nuptial
0:33:19 agreement okay and that would in the event you divorce make the divorce a
0:33:23 little less acrimonious because you’ve resolved certain issues it’s basically
0:33:28 like the prenup you should have had okay so I have seen people in both pre-nuptes
0:33:32 and in post-nuptes put in what’s called fidelity clauses which essentially are a
0:33:38 clause that say that if you cheat on your spouse here’s what the penalty will be
0:33:43 and it could be a financial penalty it could have you know a support related
0:33:47 context it could have be a percentage of certain ownership rights you know things
0:33:51 that you have are they a good idea from what you’ve seen are they useful in I
0:33:54 think they’re a terrible idea yeah from a legal standpoint they’re a terrible
0:34:00 idea but for a couple of reasons one defining cheating is very tricky you
0:34:06 know if you’re if we’re gonna define cheating as a specific form of sexual
0:34:12 contact I guess that’s a pretty clear definition but but even in fidelity it’s
0:34:17 not all created equal I mean I think we could all agree that if you if your
0:34:26 partner when they were drunk on vacation or at a party you know had some kind of
0:34:30 fleeting sexual contact with another person and then woke up the next day and
0:34:34 went oh my god what did I do I regret this so much but they’re never gonna see
0:34:38 this person again it was just a stupid dalliance it happened you know again
0:34:42 not excusing that behavior but that’s different than if you were having an
0:34:47 ongoing affair with another person or I think there are probably some people if
0:34:53 they were being honest if they said would you rather that your spouse on a
0:35:00 drunken night out kissed somebody or was texting another person five times a
0:35:04 day for six weeks and sharing the most intimate thoughts you know and what we
0:35:09 call an emotional affair well I mean I think we can agree that like something
0:35:14 about an emotional affair like someone becoming your confidant there I once
0:35:17 heard someone say and I in my professional life I found it to be true
0:35:24 that when men find out that a woman who they’re with has had an affair their
0:35:28 first question is did you sleep with him when women find out a man had an
0:35:33 affair their first question is are you in love with her and I think that tells
0:35:37 you a lot about men and women’s relationships because there’s a sense
0:35:44 of okay what what was this was the sex or was this like I’m I don’t love you
0:35:47 anymore I don’t want you in my life anymore because those are two really
0:35:53 different things and so a fidelity clause is a one-size-fits-all concept that
0:35:58 just says okay we’re gonna define cheating and then there’s gonna be a
0:36:04 penalty for you doing it now again in what I’ve observed in life cheating is
0:36:08 its own penalty cheating turns your life at best cheating turns your life
0:36:14 into like an unbelievably complicated like jumping from one foot to another
0:36:20 lying to everyone involved like rarely does anybody get out of infidelity
0:36:25 without hurting themselves and a bunch of other people like whether it’s not
0:36:29 only their partner but even the person who they cheated with or that person’s
0:36:34 partner like there’s so there’s so much pain to go around when cheating happens
0:36:40 and so to say and there’s gonna be an economic penalty you know it’s a bit
0:36:47 like you know using drugs is illegal in a lot of places but I can’t imagine that
0:36:50 there’s a heroin addict who goes you know I’m gonna shoot up oh wait it’s
0:36:55 illegal I don’t want to get in trouble yeah that’s not how it works so you’re
0:36:59 adding insult to injury you know this person they’re already in a very
0:37:03 difficult position I don’t think making it illegal is gonna do much except
0:37:08 create an underground economy same kind of thing I think that infidelity there
0:37:15 should be sufficient incentives in a relationship to not cheat and there there
0:37:21 are already by definition so many consequences for cheating that adding
0:37:25 to that an economic penalty I don’t know that a person’s gonna be about to
0:37:30 cheat and go this could cost me like 20 more grand now I gotta do it are you
0:37:34 seeing more and more people getting those prenups yeah prenups are I have to
0:37:38 tell you there’s a generational shift happening I see a lot of people in
0:37:45 there I’ve been doing this job for 25 years and I will tell you the people
0:37:50 currently in their 20s and early 30s like the prime demographic for marriage
0:37:56 mid mid 20s to mid 30s are getting prenups at a rate that I would say is
0:38:02 probably 5x what it was 10 years ago 15 years ago certainly 25 years ago from
0:38:08 when I started I think there’s a more pragmatic view of relationships I think
0:38:14 that there’s there’s a lot more open discussion I mean although there is a
0:38:18 tremendous increase in the amount of like performative look how happy we are
0:38:23 you know me well it’s like you know white teeth and rotting gums you know like
0:38:26 we’re we’re doing the performative social media look at our great hashtag
0:38:30 blessed and meanwhile our life is you know is our relationship is is rotting
0:38:35 from the inside and we see a lot of that like I say when I see people in my
0:38:41 office who publicly are having the greatest relationships ever like if you
0:38:46 believe their social media they are so madly in love and it shocks me because I
0:38:50 think about all the people that are dissatisfied in their perfectly
0:38:55 acceptable relationship because it’s not as amazing as that relationship I mean
0:39:00 well that relationship is nowhere near that amazing as they’d have you believe
0:39:04 it and and we’ve got the audacity now as a culture that people without any
0:39:08 apology you know do the we’re perfectly happy these hateful rumors that we’re
0:39:12 unhappy or terrible and then we’ve decided the amicably hard way is we
0:39:15 were asked you to respect our privacy during this difficult time and you’re
0:39:19 like okay but wait a minute like a month ago when there was rumors that the two
0:39:22 of you were splitting up you yelled at all of us for saying it’s so mean that
0:39:25 we’re speculating and now you’re like yes we’ve split up so we were right so
0:39:29 we were making us feel awful about ourselves and how madly in love you
0:39:33 were with each other but now you know we were basing our lives like we’re
0:39:38 basing our our level of satisfaction on watching your greatest hits while we live
0:39:42 our gag reel do you think there’s something in the idea that those that
0:39:46 endeavor to convince the world that they’re happy in their relationships are
0:39:52 often not as happy 100% I’ll actually extrapolate that further my father’s
0:39:55 a southerner so he has a lot of southern folksy things he says and one of them
0:40:00 was empty barrels make the most noise and he used to say that to me when I was
0:40:03 a kid all the time whenever somebody had something fancy that they owned because
0:40:06 I grew up without a lot of money and if someone would drive a beautiful car and
0:40:10 it’s a car so cool he’d say you know empty barrels make the most noise that
0:40:15 that the people that that have true joy in their relationship really don’t feel
0:40:19 like they have to advertise it people who ever like I I represent some of the
0:40:25 wealthiest people in the world like New York is the epicenter of commerce and
0:40:30 finance for the United States and to some degree for the world you know in the
0:40:35 UAE you’re more likely to find a gold plated Ferrari but in New York like
0:40:39 finance Wall Street like it is it is the home of it so I represent I have
0:40:43 a client who’s worth eight billion dollars you would walk past him on the
0:40:46 street you would never know he has very much money at all he drives a Jeep
0:40:51 Grand Cherokee which is like a very mid-range car he wears like you know
0:40:56 totally non-descript clothing like he just looks like a typical middle-aged
0:40:59 dude and you would not look at him and go like he gets his haircut at like
0:41:05 supercuts for 25 bucks like he’s not posh in the things that he owns and does
0:41:10 and he’s he could buy you know he his income annually is like the gross
0:41:14 domestic product of a few companies of a few countries and you know
0:41:21 he’s not but in the yet I have clients who appear to be incredibly wealthy and
0:41:25 as a divorce lawyer I get to see the absolutely unfiltered version of
0:41:30 people’s finances and I can tell you they are deeply in debt many of them you
0:41:33 know this is particularly true of celebrities you know celebrities have
0:41:38 to live these big performative lives because if they’re they don’t you know
0:41:43 drive a posh car and they don’t wear the the latest designer labels there’s the
0:41:46 sense of who are they not doing well and especially with sort of influencer
0:41:50 culture you know there’s just so much like you know everything everyone’s
0:41:55 wearing and doing has to be the best of the best and the most expensive I find
0:42:00 very often these are the more people have to flaunt their wealth the less wealth
0:42:05 they probably have like you know money talks like wealth whispers and it’s
0:42:08 very comfortable just whispering it doesn’t feel like it has to prove to
0:42:12 the world in fact it it would rather that everyone not know who it was there
0:42:21 was a time where fame was an unfortunate side effect of talent so you were
0:42:24 really good at something so then everybody heard about who you were and
0:42:27 all of a sudden everybody knew who you were and that was unfortunate because
0:42:30 you couldn’t go out to eat anymore you couldn’t just live your life anymore
0:42:34 now of course there were times where it probably felt really nice you know it
0:42:36 feels good listen I I walked down the street in New York City sometimes people
0:42:41 today guys said to me hey man love your stuff thanks that’s great feels nice
0:42:44 definitely nice there’s times where doesn’t there’s times where I’m on my
0:42:47 phone I’m in the middle of talking to a client and somebody’s standing there
0:42:50 next to me waiting to talk to me and I know they’re waiting to say something so
0:42:53 lovely but there’s a part of me it’s like okay man I gotta like do what I’m
0:42:59 doing right now I’m doing the thing you know and now being famous is the goal
0:43:06 for so many people so I think there is definitely when people say look at a
0:43:11 happy wearer look at how happy we are you know it’s like please tell me how
0:43:14 happy we are because if you don’t tell me how happy we are I’m gonna have to
0:43:19 look at this relationship and I’m gonna see how unhappy we are you know when
0:43:23 someone wants to be famous it’s like tell me I have value please tell me I have
0:43:29 value oh god please tell me I have value because you know the the reason I was
0:43:35 never really interested in being famous is that the praise of strangers never
0:43:40 really felt that important to me like if the people in my life think I have
0:43:43 something interesting to say and care about me and like me that’s really
0:43:48 meaningful to me and I’m touched for anyone who’s ever appreciated my work
0:43:53 or enjoyed it but I never said like oh I really want to get out there and you know
0:43:58 I have people know who I am and tell me I’m smart because I know I’m smart like
0:44:02 it’s okay like you know my beliefs don’t require you to believe them and and so I
0:44:08 think this performative culture when it comes to relationships is an
0:44:14 unfortunate thing because again we’re comparing ourselves we can’t help as a
0:44:19 species but compare ourselves to the things we see around us but you must see
0:44:22 so much of that in your office where someone comes in and they say my
0:44:26 marriage isn’t working and they use the these are comparative measure they say
0:44:31 well you know Jenny and they fight they’re like this and we’re not so but
0:44:35 how much sex are they having how much like how much sex is enough sex like
0:44:39 honestly like we don’t talk about these things we don’t we don’t there’s so much
0:44:45 of our day-to-day life that we’re constantly feeling like we’re not doing
0:44:52 well based on nothing like I don’t think I’m doing that well compared to what I’m
0:44:56 not good-looking enough compared to what a photoshopped image of a person on
0:45:00 steroids yeah you’re right you don’t look like a photoshopped person on
0:45:05 steroids you’re not supposed to like women are going into doctors office is
0:45:09 saying make me look like this and showing the doctors something that’s been
0:45:15 photoshopped that person doesn’t look like that like how would you know you’re
0:45:19 not having enough sex how much sex are people having is that frequent one sex
0:45:23 yeah for sex is huge sex is huge it’s well I mean first of all it better be
0:45:28 because what’s the difference between a spouse and a roommate otherwise like it
0:45:31 was just like oh we’re gonna be partners in a home together like you don’t have to
0:45:35 marry each other to do that you can just live together and be I mean sex is the
0:45:39 glue sex is the thing that brings you together sex is what makes a romantic
0:45:45 relationship a romantic relationship and again it can be any number of varieties
0:45:50 of sex it can be preferences of sex it can be anything but we don’t talk about
0:45:54 we talk about all kinds of things in polite society now if you can call it
0:45:58 that I mean we talked more than we ever did about you know transgender issues and
0:46:02 LGBTQ+ issues and I think that’s progress I think it’s great that people can
0:46:07 talk about anything we can talk about kink we can talk about like I’m a big
0:46:10 fan of people being able to speak openly about the things that make them happy
0:46:14 and make them feel good and you know not having to feel ashamed about certain
0:46:21 things but baseline like how how well we’re not having enough sex okay compared
0:46:25 to what the sex we used to have as a couple that makes sense that makes
0:46:31 sense to me like if we set a baseline and say we used to have sex every day we
0:46:35 first started dating we had sex four times a day okay but then the you know
0:46:40 luster wears off you know now we we used to have sex once a day now once a week
0:46:45 is that okay is that natural is that part of the progression of a
0:46:49 relationship or is that a sign that one or both of us are feeling dissatisfied
0:46:54 with each other can we talk about that and not have it be a fight can we talk
0:46:57 about that and not hear it as a as a something that we have to react
0:47:00 defensively to and that’s that’s the stuff I tried to talk about in my book
0:47:04 is that people come in and they go well you know we’re unhappy with a child was
0:47:07 cheating on her I was cheating on her because she wasn’t sleeping with me well
0:47:10 I wasn’t sleeping with him because he’s never nice to me well I’m not nice to her
0:47:14 because every time I talk to her all she doesn’t put me down okay and you sit here
0:47:18 going okay so you guys are just been in this death spiral you know just going
0:47:24 down and down and down you started at I love you more than eight billion other
0:47:30 people in the world but somehow you just started to do this death spiral and now
0:47:35 you’re right you won you guys you won you’re both right you don’t have to sleep
0:47:39 with him you don’t have to be nice to her you don’t have to say a kind word you
0:47:42 don’t have to do any that you don’t have to be married great news you don’t have
0:47:48 to be married but you decided to be married you signed up to be married so
0:47:53 at some point this made sense to you you liked each other that much and you were
0:47:58 both pointing in the same direction and at some point you lost the plot so my
0:48:06 feeling is wouldn’t it be better before you completely lose the plot to just do
0:48:12 the preventative maintenance preventive maintenance talk about we’re are we
0:48:16 still as connected as we were are we still as excited as we were are we
0:48:21 still you know are we still attracted to each other are we still enjoying each
0:48:24 other physically mentally like emotionally we don’t want to do that
0:48:28 there cuz it’s uncomfortable right okay lots of things are uncomfortable that
0:48:32 are so good for you you know exercise is uncomfortable until you get in a rhythm
0:48:37 of it and it feels really good you know so how would you know if the first time
0:48:40 you went to the gym and you worked out and you went home and you were like oh
0:48:44 my god I’m so sore I’m never working out again then you will never get into an
0:48:49 exercise routine you have to get through that part where everything’s really sore
0:48:53 and you’re still sometimes gonna be sore you over did it you know but you start
0:48:57 to realize yeah but it’s also bringing tremendous value to my life you know and
0:49:03 so why not like why not trade what you want now which is comfort in the moment
0:49:09 for what you want most which is real connection real intimacy like real joy
0:49:16 and that can be and again we want it 86% of people who get divorced wouldn’t
0:49:19 get remarried within five years if we didn’t want it if we didn’t believe it
0:49:25 was possible and if you’ve ever met someone who is happily married over a
0:49:31 long period of time you won the lottery like they’re so their lives are just so
0:49:36 much better because they just go I had this partner because this is terrifying
0:49:42 like life is terrifying and it’s brutal and it and it and it ends it
0:49:47 invariably ends we’re all gonna die everyone we love is gonna die like we’re
0:49:53 playing a game you can’t win to the utmost and to me to have a partner in
0:49:57 that someone who you can hold their hand and go you know when you’re scared
0:50:01 I’ll be here for you and when I’m scared you’ll be here for me and you’ll help me
0:50:06 see my blind spots and I’ll help you see yours and let’s just do this thing will
0:50:11 never be alone like what a gorgeous thought that is what a beautiful thought
0:50:16 that is what a worthy pursuit that is but yeah you got to be uncomfortable once
0:50:19 in a while you got to tell it each other something other than what the other
0:50:26 person wants to hear once in a while but to me like if the payoff is real
0:50:32 connection keeping real intimacy keeping your partner happy and satisfied with
0:50:36 you so that the thought of splitting up or running off with somebody else is
0:50:40 just a fleeting thought that maybe occasionally jumps into their head like
0:50:47 that seems such a worthwhile investment to me preventative maintenance I want to
0:50:49 just drill down a little bit into what that actually looks like because there’ll
0:50:52 be a lot of people right now including myself who heard you use this
0:50:56 temporary defensive maintenance and immediately I thought Jesus Christ I
0:50:59 probably should do that a little bit more sure what do you mean by preventative
0:51:02 maintenance it can be lots of things I think it can be I try to give a lot of
0:51:08 examples but I I think some of the simplest examples are very small
0:51:14 gestures of courtesy I mean think about when you first started dating all the
0:51:19 little things that made the back of your neck tingle about this person like they
0:51:23 would say the littlest thing about you and it made you so happy because they
0:51:28 were noticing you you know and they they they saw beautiful things in you and
0:51:32 that made you see and feel those things in yourself you know that that’s a
0:51:38 beauty amazing thing we can do for each other you know and and so I mean at its
0:51:44 core level like the the the example I’ve given to a lot of my male friends and
0:51:47 several of them have done it and I’ve got a lot of really good feedback on it is
0:51:51 leave leave a note just leave a note in the morning when you leave for work or
0:51:55 wherever it is you’re going just leave a note you know so great hanging out with
0:51:59 you last night I’m with the prettiest girl in the whole world can’t wait to
0:52:04 see you again that’s it what does that take ten seconds ten seconds and and
0:52:09 every guy I meet who I say that to they go yeah the first time I did it she was
0:52:12 like what is going on why did you leave me that note what are you what what what
0:52:17 it what’s going on but then after a little while like if this is just
0:52:20 something you do that you go yeah I just you know I want to make a practice of
0:52:24 like how I want to tell you this stuff I forget to tell you sometimes you know
0:52:28 like what does that take like what does it take for your partner to say to you
0:52:33 you’re so smart like I just love being around you like you’re so handsome I’m
0:52:38 so lucky like what does that take that’s nothing doesn’t cost anything takes
0:52:43 nothing to do that why don’t we do it I don’t know I don’t know I think we just
0:52:48 whoever discovered water it wasn’t a fish like I think you’re just in it and
0:52:52 you just stop seeing it and that person’s just there and again I don’t
0:52:56 know and I also think culture is antagonistic to it because the example I
0:53:00 give to people because people love their dogs and I love my dogs but like dogs
0:53:06 are a great way to look at this rationally because I’ve got a 13 year
0:53:11 old dog I got him when he was a puppy now he’s 13 and like me he slowed down a
0:53:17 lot his back hurts he’s not quite the puppy he used to be I have never once
0:53:24 looked at that dog and gone I gotta get a puppy this old dog you didn’t look as
0:53:27 cute as he used to and like oh my god have you seen our cute puppies are like I
0:53:32 would never it’s my dog man I fall more in love with that dog every single day
0:53:35 you know and yeah sure puppies are cute and they’re great and I’ll pet him but
0:53:40 that’s my dog man I wouldn’t trade all the puppies in the world for that dog
0:53:47 your partner your romantic partner like what when did it become acceptable as
0:53:55 it as it is in in culture to just just piss all over your partner like every
0:53:59 guy it’s like the I’m married to the most loathsome harpy ever to cast rate a
0:54:04 man like this one the old ball and chain and women it’s like the guy is like oh
0:54:08 this idiot like this just lovable idiot you know he doesn’t know he doesn’t know
0:54:13 anything he’s so stupid men are so stupid like when did that what do you
0:54:18 think’s gonna come from that other than this disdain that we can then have for
0:54:23 each other and this sort of disrespect as opposed to being like so into each other
0:54:27 which is what you were when you were strangers you know when you didn’t know
0:54:32 each other you know every all the same women sitting around in a group of
0:54:36 women talking about how much their husbands suck when their female friend
0:54:39 goes oh my god I’m seeing this guy I just started seeing what did you oh my
0:54:47 god he sounds so great all this is all this is is your guy five years ago but
0:54:54 somehow now you’re really gonna buy the delusion that if she it all works out
0:54:57 with him and they get married and they do their little fairy tale thing and the
0:55:00 cake and the dress and the whole thing that in five years she’s still gonna be
0:55:07 like he’s so great no it’s gonna be easy again just like the rest of you so we
0:55:14 need to start as a culture you know perhaps changing the way cuz I think
0:55:17 there is something about that where we’re you know we’re trying to like not
0:55:20 make people self-conscious so we just like take the piss out of our partner all
0:55:24 the time in front of you know people or around other people and I don’t find that
0:55:28 charming do you think that when we get to the lovable idiot oh my god happy
0:55:32 wife happy like all that stuff which is part of how happy wife whoever said that
0:55:36 should just be beaten to death happy wife happy life like if I hear one more
0:55:39 person give that advice to somebody I have to tell you that is just the most
0:55:44 ridiculous what does it even mean happy wife happy life if she’s happy then I’m
0:55:54 happy because I think it’s used by men who believe that their wife is always
0:55:59 unhappy so if she’s not shouting at me and I could just sit here and watch the
0:56:10 football you know man I can’t wait what for some day for my kids to just sit
0:56:15 there while the person in the other room is just mildly dissatisfied with them
0:56:20 and they can just sit and watch you know the football get really that’s that’s
0:56:23 what we’re aspiring to that’s what you hope for like I gotta take I just don’t
0:56:29 think our goals are really misaligned you know my greatest accomplishment in
0:56:33 life is my children really that’s your greatest accomplishment in life is your
0:56:36 children what let me ask you this what will your children’s greatest
0:56:40 accomplishment in life be having children because guess what this is the
0:56:45 ideology of a cancer cell growth for the sake of growth for the sake of growth
0:56:48 for the sake of growth reproduction for the sake of reproduction I don’t think
0:56:53 that’s the highest noblest goal I think there should be something in there
0:56:59 about quality of life about making the world or the experience of others better
0:57:05 like again it’s not for me to define but but I certainly I don’t intelligence is
0:57:10 hard to define but I can spot stupid a mile away and I have to tell you a good
0:57:15 relationship you know it’s kind of hard to quantify but man I know what sucks I
0:57:20 know a bad relationship when I see one and we all know them so what’s more
0:57:26 uncomfortable that relationship where you know at least she’s not yelling at me
0:57:29 and she’s only mildly dissatisfied and I can just be left alone for an hour and
0:57:34 watch the football or having to have an uncomfortable conversation again while
0:57:39 you’re still like each other but there’s a little slippage there’s a little
0:57:42 something going in the other direction and I don’t want it to go too far I
0:57:47 mean put it into the physical context it is a whole lot easier to maintain a
0:57:51 healthy weight than to gain a hundred pounds and then try to figure out how
0:57:55 to lose it that’s much much harder and it’s much worse for you and the chances
0:58:00 of you actually accomplishing it are way lower whereas maintaining a healthy
0:58:06 way that’s not an unrealistic thing to be able to do is a I sat here with a one
0:58:11 psychologist who I’m sure you’ll know very famous individual called Jordan
0:58:15 Peterson and he said to me he said he was shouting when he said it he said
0:58:19 listen here’s you’re gonna have to sit down for 90 minutes a week and you’re
0:58:23 gonna have to listen to her and she’s gonna tell you everything that’s wrong
0:58:26 and he goes if you don’t listen to her for 90 minutes a week you’ll be
0:58:29 listening to her in divorce court and he was it was almost shouting when he says
0:58:33 it the analogy he’s making the what he’s saying is what you’re saying yeah is
0:58:39 you’re gonna I you know George I find Jordan Peterson very entertaining I’ve
0:58:43 been a fan of his work a long time and I loved actually your conversation with
0:58:48 him what I will say is I think that he’s sort of hyperbolic in his
0:58:52 presentation sometimes which I enjoy but I think we totally agree on this I
0:58:56 think that that what he’s saying more than anything is that you can invest
0:59:03 now in candor and in listening to this other person in a non-defensive manner
0:59:08 and so there’s a chapter in my book called hits and now where I talk about
0:59:13 exactly that where I say you need to be able to have these conversations but
0:59:19 have them in a way that you’re hearing it and you’re saying it you’re agreeing
0:59:24 it’s a contract and that we know we love each other so we’re gonna try to say it
0:59:27 with love we’re gonna try to hear it with love because I’m only saying it
0:59:31 because that this is important to me this relationship and I want it to be
0:59:35 good for you and for me so I’m gonna go out on the limb here I’m gonna take this
0:59:39 risk because you’re worth it you are worth it for me to take this risk it’s
0:59:44 scary I’m not excited about having to say it but you know what like I care
0:59:47 enough and when you say things to me I’m gonna hear it I’m gonna hear it as you
0:59:50 saying I care so much about this relationship I’m gonna say this harder
0:59:54 thing to say and it might be little it might be you know you said the other
0:59:57 night you were talking about my sister and you made that little joke about her
1:00:00 and it felt like you were like kind of making fun of my sister and I thought
1:00:03 you like my sister and it’s really important to me that you like my sister
1:00:07 because I really like my sister so maybe I misunderstood you and if I did okay
1:00:12 great let me know that hit send now just hit send now the reason I said hit send
1:00:18 now is when you you were like writing email where you said something important
1:00:22 and you like write it rewrite it and you craft it and you’re like about to hit
1:00:27 send and you’re like oh boy and then you hit it and you’re like well it’s there
1:00:32 now and I send it now like it’s done I hit send now that’s where I got the term
1:00:36 hit send now because but I but I said like make it a technique like say to
1:00:42 your partner I want to do this I want you to do it and I want to do it but I
1:00:46 want to make it clear like make the subject heading of the email hitting
1:00:53 send now okay so they know so they know this is not an attack this is something
1:00:57 I want to get off my chest you don’t have to respond right away you don’t have
1:01:01 to respond in writing if you don’t want to but I just want to put this out there
1:01:05 because I want you to digest it and the key to this is I read in your book is
1:01:11 to do it quickly yep and do it honestly yep yep and and and to again to make a
1:01:17 point of calling this out as a technique when you’re in a good place so when
1:01:19 you’re already in a good place there’s an abundance of goodwill between us we’re
1:01:24 in a good spot that’s a good time to say hey look this is good man and this is
1:01:28 important so let’s keep it good and the way we’re gonna do that is if I say to
1:01:32 you you know we used to I’m making an example we used to have sex five times
1:01:38 a week and now I feel like it’s like you know once a week maybe and I think
1:01:41 you’re so attractive I love I love it like I don’t feel any less attracted to
1:01:44 you and I know you know we’ve been busy and things like that but like I don’t
1:01:48 want to see that slip I want you to be the person that fills all my desires and
1:01:51 all my fantasies I don’t want to look at porn I don’t want to think about other
1:01:55 things I want to really be focused on you is there something I’m doing that’s
1:02:00 causing you to be less interested in me is there something I could do that would
1:02:03 spark things better is there something going on that I need to know in terms of
1:02:08 how you feel about me yeah but what if it’s personal and what if it’s offensive
1:02:12 what if it’s isn’t it better to know if it’s personal and it’s offensive isn’t
1:02:16 it better to know like because I had to tell you I’ll come up with a thousand
1:02:19 different reasons it might be and only one of them might be accurate and the
1:02:24 other 999 might be complete garbage in my mind like I might be convinced that
1:02:27 it’s because you’re cheating I might be convinced that I’m not attractive to you
1:02:30 all of a sudden because you know my hair got gray or I got a bad haircut or
1:02:34 something stupid what if it’s that then wouldn’t you rather know wouldn’t you
1:02:39 rather know would you and find some other and listen I’m not saying by the
1:02:43 way everything isn’t everything right like there are things in relationships
1:02:47 that you might just say yeah I don’t know that’s changed like I used to be
1:02:50 really into that no I’m not anymore you know or that used to mean a lot to me and
1:02:55 now it doesn’t and that gives your partner a chance to say well look it’s
1:03:00 still really important to me so can we find some common ground how frequent
1:03:05 is sex the issue in divorce as they’re not I’m not talking about affairs I’m
1:03:12 saying sexlessness yeah that’s a great question so is it increasing yeah so
1:03:16 here’s what I’ll say there there’s reverse engineering the demise of a
1:03:20 marriage is a very difficult thing for anybody to do because the two people in
1:03:23 the relationship aren’t even really fully aware of what’s going on in
1:03:29 themselves much less each other and then an outside observer asking them so
1:03:34 like you can do all the studies you want of people’s self-reported satisfaction
1:03:38 or lack of satisfaction in a relationship or what caused them to become
1:03:42 dissatisfied that is so loaded up with people’s delusion and people’s
1:03:46 projection and all these other things that I only you quantified so everything
1:03:51 I’m saying I’m saying as a divorce lawyer who I think is empathetic and who I
1:03:57 think for a living puts myself in other people’s mind to try to understand what
1:04:00 they’re doing and why they did what they did and come up with the best and
1:04:05 worst possible excuses for it and then to tell that story right like I’m a full
1:04:10 contact storyteller that’s my job so and my job if you’re really honest is to
1:04:14 manipulate people’s emotional state my job is to make a judge feel good about
1:04:18 my client bad about the other side make the other side feel scared make my
1:04:21 client feel safe that’s my jobs to manipulate everybody’s emotional state
1:04:25 through the power of storytelling that’s what being a divorce lawyer is it
1:04:30 sounds sexier when I say it that way but that is what it is so when we look at
1:04:37 that as the job where does sex fall into that equation it’s it’s everywhere in
1:04:42 that equation because again it is the thing that separates this relationship
1:04:47 from other kinds of relationships sex is a thing that is definitional to a
1:04:51 romantic relationship now again will it always be the same will it always stay
1:04:56 at the same level of importance no but is it a great canary in the coal mine
1:05:01 that you know like something’s off with the sex now that that that that the
1:05:08 tragedy is not far behind yeah like because almost every couple when I talk
1:05:13 to my side of the equation about when did this thing start when did the ship
1:05:18 start to sink there was certainly some change in sex because again sex is
1:05:23 definitional in terms of what distinguishes a romantic relationship
1:05:28 from a platonic relationship because listen guys we can do this however we
1:05:33 want as a society we don’t have to get married we do not have to get married we
1:05:37 just have to we just have to reproduce but we could just decide hey we’re just
1:05:42 gonna reproduce and we’re gonna live in like colonies of platonic you know
1:05:45 relationships and we’ll just have sex for the purposes of breeding at certain
1:05:48 times and then we’ll figure out who gets to raise what kids and that’ll be that
1:05:53 we don’t do that and and it’s not like what we don’t do that because we made a
1:05:58 set of rules societies don’t do that they’ve never really done that like
1:06:03 this there’s somehow this permutation in the human and animal kingdom keeps
1:06:06 coming up where we have pair bonds and we reproduce with the person who’s our
1:06:10 partner and then we sort of work together and you know how much does the tribe how
1:06:13 much does the rest of the world get involved in that how extended is the
1:06:18 family how extended is the tribe that varies right from species to species
1:06:23 from culture to culture from time to time but we this fundamental idea of
1:06:27 like reproduction between you know the male and the female of the species and
1:06:30 there being some then continued interaction and a sharing of responsibilities
1:06:36 towards the rearing of the young it’s pretty common right so what’s the thing
1:06:42 that makes a and b it’s the sex like there’s there’s there’s sex there’s
1:06:46 some romantic or sexual component to that relationship that then leads to
1:06:52 reproduction of some kind so I think when you take that out of the equation or
1:06:56 when there’s a change in that there’s a disruption in the force right there’s a
1:07:02 disruption in the system and then you can trace it back like yeah we and again
1:07:06 sometimes it’s not direct cause in effect like oh we started having less sex
1:07:09 than we stopped being nice to each other sometimes it stopped being nice to
1:07:13 each other so we stopped having as much sex but it’s an element it’s always an
1:07:18 element there you know and then that’s my key piece of advice to everyone in the
1:07:22 book that I try to say over and over and over again if you had to like summarize
1:07:28 it is pay attention just pay attention to what you’re feeling to what your
1:07:34 partner’s feeling and then say it you know I say that all marital problems
1:07:41 stem from two things I don’t know what I want and I don’t know how to express it
1:07:46 and I think if you can figure that out if you can figure out what you want and
1:07:54 figure out how to express it that’s like 99% of the battle when someone gets to
1:07:57 you how often do they go from getting to a divorce lawyer having that
1:08:02 conversation we want to separate to repairing and rebuilding and getting
1:08:07 back to happiness yeah that’s a great question so I as my career has
1:08:14 progressed I am now a guy who you hire when you’re in a really bad situation so
1:08:19 I’m a trial lawyer so now you know you can do things with a scalpel and you can
1:08:24 do them with a chainsaw I’m a chainsaw now like now I’m you hire me because your
1:08:29 situation is bad because you’re more expensive is that no I’m more expensive
1:08:36 because I’m really good in high-conflict situations I’m really tactical I’m
1:08:41 really strategic I think ten moves ahead and I outpace everyone with my work
1:08:46 ethic I wake up at 4 a.m. and I wake up very sharp and I wake and I’m
1:08:50 immediately thinking about clients and cases and I’m dedicated to this work in
1:08:56 an absolutely insane way in a way that is in no way good as a human being it’s
1:08:59 really really I’m a great lawyer I’m questionable as a human being but I’m
1:09:03 really really good as a lawyer because I’m better at this than I’ve ever been
1:09:07 in anything in my life have you ever seen someone get to you and then go back
1:09:11 to perfect that like yeah for many years in my career early in my career the
1:09:16 first decade or more of my career when I handled more sort of regular people’s
1:09:22 divorces you know yeah I would frequently I would frequently try to steer
1:09:25 people if I thought that that was possible I still to this day if I think
1:09:29 it’s possible for people to work something out either an individual
1:09:34 counseling or an individual counseling and then maybe couples counseling I will
1:09:38 steer them in that direction of course who cheats more men or women I think
1:09:43 both men and women cheat with a tremendous amount of frequency I think
1:09:50 that I don’t think that you could really say one does it more than the other I
1:09:59 think that more more men are accused of having ruined the relationship by
1:10:04 cheating than women are who’s more dissatisfied with this the amount of sex
1:10:10 men and women generally men want more and generally want more sex women want
1:10:15 more quality sex men are quantity based in my experience coming to sex and
1:10:21 that’s like men would rather have frequent sex that may not be the highest
1:10:25 possible quality but it like kind of gets the job done I mean it’s the same
1:10:29 reason why pornography is more popular with men than women I think that men are
1:10:31 just like I gotta get the poison out of my system here I gotta be get on with my
1:10:34 day and I’m not gonna be able to think straight until I just get that over with
1:10:41 and so I think that that women it’s it’s a it’s a different I don’t think women
1:10:46 you know have don’t find sex important I hate to make generalizations about
1:10:53 about gender but I if from my seat the number of men that come in and say to me
1:10:56 like yeah like she’s just not sleeping with me well what did she expect like of
1:10:59 course I slept with somebody else like she was like sleep with me once a week
1:11:02 she was sleeping with me once a month I’ve had clients who came in we’re like
1:11:07 yeah we hadn’t had sex in six years six years like first of all why would you
1:11:11 put up with that second of all if you’re this person’s spouse how what the
1:11:15 hell did you think was going on you thought things were okay like yeah we
1:11:18 had sex in six years we just forgot to do that like I get if you didn’t clean
1:11:22 your gutters in six years or you know maybe like I get it if you didn’t
1:11:26 change your oil in a year like it’s bad idea but like I get it I could slip your
1:11:30 mind look oh my god I’m into the dentist in a year but sex you must have
1:11:34 heard a lot of her fair stories oh my god please if you can have like a PhD in
1:11:38 infidelity I would have it yeah I mean it’s because a cheating is a huge
1:11:43 components to divorces so many divorces but the question is always cause or
1:11:49 effect and the danger of putting so much emphasis on cheating is that it’s an
1:11:53 oversimplification so someone comes in and goes we’re getting divorced why
1:11:59 because he’s sleeping with his secretary I get it like yes that’s true that is one
1:12:03 of the variables that has led to your divorce but you you hadn’t slept with
1:12:08 him in three years so I’m not saying that makes the cheating forgivable but
1:12:12 you’re saying you had a really super awesome healthy marriage and then this
1:12:16 nefarious secretary came into the picture and suddenly he was wooed away
1:12:24 no there were conditions that made that very likely to happen right and so let’s
1:12:28 start going back a little further in the cause like the truth is at the bottom of
1:12:34 a bottomless pit so we can try to reverse engineer this and say well he slept
1:12:36 with his secretary because you weren’t sleeping well I wasn’t sleeping with him
1:12:39 because he wasn’t nice to me well I wasn’t nice to him because he was never
1:12:41 paying any attention to me while I wasn’t paying attention to her because
1:12:44 what did I want to pay attention to she’s hasn’t changed at all or she’s
1:12:48 changed so much and she’s nothing like she used to be there and again everyone
1:12:54 you’ll be shocked to hear when they tell the story of their life they’re usually
1:13:01 they rarely come into my office and go listen I’m a piece of garbage you know
1:13:06 but I will tell you when it comes to cheating sometimes they do you must have
1:13:09 had people come in and admit things to you about their current affairs that you
1:13:12 just blow your mind is there a particular example we go that was the most
1:13:19 shocking example that I had heard of someone deceiving the marital commitment
1:13:25 yeah I mean I’ve had people come in and tell me stories that I just think to
1:13:30 myself like how how did you actually like just the engineering of it like I’ve
1:13:34 had people who came in and they had multiple they had two families happening
1:13:39 at once and neither of them knew about the other like that that the mistress
1:13:44 who he started a family with like thought he was divorced and the wife
1:13:48 thought that he was traveling for business and like he would literally have
1:13:52 Christmas with both he would have Thanksgiving with both like he would
1:13:55 and he just found a way to sort of logistically do it and I’ve seen things
1:14:00 like that many times I mean I’ve seen people it’s almost become a cliche that
1:14:05 people who sleep with their their sister-in-law or their brother-in-law
1:14:10 mother-in-law and oh and I haven’t seen mother-in-law yet father-in-law I have
1:14:13 seen father-in-law yeah I have seen father-in-law yeah I saw that saw that
1:14:17 one I there’s a chapter in my book about nannies how people sleep with the nanny
1:14:21 that’s pretty common why do you talk in the book about how wealthy clients like
1:14:25 to sleep with the nanny yeah I don’t know what that’s about I mean I do I have a
1:14:30 theory about it and I think that what I call the nanny fascination I think that
1:14:39 it’s not that hard to understand like the nanny is a lot of the characteristics
1:14:43 of the wife right she’s good with the kids she’s there to be a supportive other
1:14:50 to the husband she’s a helpmate you know but without any of the autonomy an
1:14:55 agency without any of the like she’s an employee at the end of the day so much
1:14:58 simpler of a relationship in the sense that it’s like you got to do a good job
1:15:02 or I’m gonna fire you you know so not talking back yeah don’t talk back
1:15:07 because I’m your employer you know and you’re not gonna so I think I get it you
1:15:12 know I get it I also think too that and this is that this is this is dangerous
1:15:18 ground especially in the year of our lord 2024 but I think she’s also a version
1:15:25 of the wife like she’s a version of the wife when the wife was just a woman like
1:15:31 she has a life outside the home like she when she’s not nannying she’s out doing
1:15:35 stuff and so she’s got things to talk about like she’s gone places she does
1:15:40 things there’s something mysterious about her you know and I think that’s one
1:15:46 of the advice I give in the book is is that I think that wives can can embrace
1:15:51 the part of themselves that’s the nanny like take the time to like don’t let
1:15:56 your spouse and your children eclipse who you are like who you are is who your
1:16:01 husband fell in love with like your your your kids exist because a man and a
1:16:06 woman found each other attractive you know and and so don’t don’t forget in
1:16:10 your desire to be a good parent and your desire to be a good partner don’t
1:16:14 forget to be really good to yourself and to to cultivate your interests and your
1:16:18 passions and to try to enjoy them as best you can you know without shirking
1:16:21 obviously none of us wants to shirk our responsibilities to our families and
1:16:26 our children but you’re important like I think people are the husband and the
1:16:30 wife you know are important or in the same-sex marriage husband husband wife
1:16:34 wife you’re important to each other you know remember who you are remember the
1:16:38 value you brought to the relationship people often go to divorce lawyers when
1:16:41 their marriages break down but listen I’m a huge fan maybe the biggest fan you
1:16:46 ‘ll ever meet of serial killer documentaries sure and just murder
1:16:49 documentaries period there’s not one I haven’t seen I’ve seen them all and in
1:16:52 those documentaries the first one of the first things you learn is that if the
1:16:58 wife goes missing like 80% of the time it’s the husband and I was just thinking
1:17:07 about how that kind of some people might see it as a choice go to you listen
1:17:16 there’s a reason because I understand how trapped people feel I think that you
1:17:24 sign on for this thing that feels so good love we fall in love so fast have
1:17:28 you seen that documentary on Netflix American dream was it American what was
1:17:34 that documentary Netflix where the guy has a wife and two kids and then he meets
1:17:38 a younger woman out and about at work and he in the set of getting a divorce
1:17:45 he decides to murder his wife and the two baby girls smother than both and dump
1:17:50 them in a barrel at work in and he’s seemingly night obviously he’s not but
1:17:58 seemingly a normal guy yeah who as you say just looked like he was trapped
1:18:01 in a situation where he met someone new at this family didn’t know how to handle
1:18:07 it and made this horrific decision yeah yeah I mean I think I mean that’s an
1:18:13 extreme example but I I actually when you spend enough time with people who are
1:18:20 in horrifyingly awful situations like they’ve they’re having an affair for
1:18:26 many years they’ve hidden money or they’ve done you know like they they’ve
1:18:30 engaged in transgressions that if their spouse found out about it they would
1:18:36 just be like are you kidding me you know and I think most of the time like it
1:18:42 starts with just one sort of bad choice you know and then that bad choice leads
1:18:45 to a series of choice like it you know they always say I mean if you watch
1:18:49 enough serial killer things it’s not the crime it’s the cover-up you know you
1:18:52 don’t get caught for the crime you get caught for the cover-up it’s like the
1:18:56 things you do to try to cover your tracks is the thing that leave the tracks and
1:19:00 it’s it’s the same I I think have you seen murder in your practice you deal
1:19:06 with that is that part of your work I you know thank God I I’ve only had one
1:19:12 client in 25 years of practice who there was an active effort made by their
1:19:18 spouse to try to kill them and they they ran her over four times and stabbed her
1:19:23 thought she was dead left her for dead and six months of surgeries and all
1:19:27 kinds of things later she survived she’s well she has injuries for the rest of
1:19:31 her life that will plague her but she is alive and he is in prison for the rest
1:19:36 of his life that’s thank God the only time I’ve ever seen that happen I mean I
1:19:40 see a lot of domestic violence I see a lot of intimate partner abuse few was
1:19:43 your client in that case she was my client she was your client before that
1:19:47 happened yeah she was my client before that happened to her he was it he was a
1:19:51 perpetrator of domestic violence for many years but there was nothing in his
1:19:55 history that would lead you to believe that he had that propensity towards
1:20:00 violence the divorce was going very badly for him I was doing my job very well
1:20:06 and he you know he I don’t want to say he snapped because it gives it too much
1:20:11 credit I I think he just got it in his head that she was his enemy and the
1:20:14 cause of everything bad that had ever happened to him and that killing her
1:20:20 would be a better choice and he got her to meet him in a a sort of remote
1:20:24 location a parking lot of a hotel under a false pretense that he wanted to give
1:20:28 her something related to the kids or something and he stabbed her several
1:20:32 times then ran her over several times he did it himself did himself yeah he did
1:20:39 himself and it was it was shocking I mean you you don’t want it what’s
1:20:44 happened more commonly is I’ve had clients who’ve committed suicide and
1:20:48 self-harm and I’ve had clients who their spouse you know committed suicide
1:20:53 that’s happened many times where people I think feel they they’re losing
1:20:57 everything their whole lives falling apart they can’t imagine what their
1:21:03 post-divorce life will be or they’re so horrified by the behavior they engaged
1:21:07 in during that they think that it’s just impossible to get out of this situation
1:21:11 so you would be working with a client and then you get a notification an email a
1:21:17 message saying that they’ve ended their life yeah yeah it’s more commonly
1:21:21 happened to me it’s only happened to me where a client I lost a client that way
1:21:27 once it’s happened four times on the other side where I got an email saying
1:21:35 this person has been found and you know it ends the case obviously so it’s a
1:21:43 hard thing as a professional because I know that I’ve done a lot to make this
1:21:49 person’s life very difficult because that’s my job but if that person had
1:21:56 hired me you know a month before their spouse did I would have been arguing for
1:21:59 their benefit I would have been arguing as their advocate I would have been
1:22:03 trying to help them as best I can and instead I was hired by their spouse and
1:22:08 my job’s to kind of take them apart as best I can like I’m a weapon you know a
1:22:11 divorce lawyer is a weapon and a weapon in the hands of a good person is
1:22:16 protects things and a weapon in the hands of a villain is very harmful so
1:22:22 has your work ever made you cry yeah sure absolutely I think I’ve cried for a
1:22:27 lot of reasons about my work I’ve cried from frustration when I couldn’t when
1:22:34 justice wasn’t served and and I felt that I could have done more or different
1:22:40 out of frustration I’ve cried I’ve cried I think I’ve cried more often out of
1:22:48 beauty I I’m much more welled up by what I by things that are beautiful to me
1:22:54 than things that are upsetting to me like I I’m astounded by the strength of
1:23:00 people sometimes I’m astounded by the resilience of people you think of an
1:23:09 example on either end of the spectrum yeah yeah you know I had a client I got
1:23:13 him his dog back you know there’s nothing about animals that I think is
1:23:18 just so it’s just so pure how much we love them like they don’t really care
1:23:22 what we make they don’t care if we’re impressive or not or if anybody bought
1:23:26 our book if anybody how many views we have or clicks we have like they don’t
1:23:30 they just love us you know maybe it’s because we feed them maybe it’s because
1:23:33 we scratch them the right way but I want to believe that it’s just that they’re
1:23:38 just so much heart and so much love you know and I had this guy who at the
1:23:41 beginning of the case he just said look man I don’t care like I don’t care what
1:23:45 I have to pay her I don’t care where to get me my dog like just get me my dog
1:23:48 she doesn’t really love the dog but she took the dog because she knows how much
1:23:53 I love the dog so just get me my dog back like I just want my dog back and
1:23:58 he was this older gruff guy this is the last guy you would think you know like
1:24:03 that the dog would be that important to him and we fought really hard we and we
1:24:08 got his dog back and I remember when I came out and I ran down the lake okay I
1:24:11 got you this we got you this we got you this and you and the dog and he started
1:24:16 crying and I started crying like a child you know because I there was just
1:24:19 something so beautiful about like that yeah that’s what mattered to him like
1:24:23 that he got his dog back you know and and I I could imagine in my head like
1:24:29 that the reunion between those two and that was very moving to me the
1:24:34 impermanence of a relationship with a dog is something that I’ve had you talk
1:24:38 about before yeah and how we can and sort of the impermanence the fact that we
1:24:40 only have dogs for a short time I’ve got a dog as well and I’ve had it since it
1:24:44 was a puppy and it now has gray hairs and it’s older and it doesn’t run like it
1:24:48 used to and little Pablo I’m get I’m now realizing that he’s in the last season
1:24:54 of his life and it just makes you want to play with the more and cherish those
1:24:59 moments more and be kinder and give him another treat and yeah and we’re we’re
1:25:08 if we’re honest we’re we’re always losing everyone all the time like and
1:25:16 and that’s why to love anything is insane right because to love anything is to
1:25:20 expose yourself to the inevitability of losing it and I’ve learned that I learned
1:25:24 that as a hospice volunteer for many years and I’ve learned that as a human
1:25:28 being and I’ve learned that as a divorce lawyer that like we’re all losing
1:25:33 everything all the time even our child like you have a child that child
1:25:37 tomorrow the child they were the day before is dead it’s gone they’re a new
1:25:43 thing every day until you know until all of us are ghosts until all of us are
1:25:54 gone and so to me keeping that awareness in your mind is everything like like you
1:26:00 you honor that dog by saying you know what I I took for granted when this was a
1:26:05 puppy peeing on everything and running around and eating all my shoes you know
1:26:10 like I I didn’t realize like there was a limited amount of time like there is a
1:26:16 finite number of times you will watch the sunset you don’t know that number but
1:26:22 it exists you just don’t know it yet there’s only so many more summers that
1:26:27 you will be here to see you just don’t know the number it could be one it could
1:26:35 be a hundred it’s probably not a hundred right so I think to me when people
1:26:39 say like well how is a divorce lawyer so like you know into love and such a
1:26:44 romantic at heart like how could you not be how could you not be when you’re
1:26:50 confronted every day with how fragile love is and how transient it is and how
1:26:57 powerful it is it’s it means so much to us so much of what we do all day is to
1:27:02 find love and to be loved and to feel worthy of love and and and then we have
1:27:09 it and we just kind of forget we have it until it’s going away and then we
1:27:13 and then it’s too late or it’s gone and now it’s completely too late like if you
1:27:20 realize was a Pablo you’re done if you realize how amazing Pablo is when Pablo
1:27:26 is gone shame on you like you should when you pick him up and smell him you
1:27:29 know like that’s the to me like that’s everything there there’s a I don’t if
1:27:33 you ever read tich Nhat Hanh’s work the Buddhist monk so tich Nhat Hanh was a
1:27:38 Vietnamese Buddhist monk he was nominated for the Nobel Peace Prize in
1:27:41 like the 80s he wrote some beautiful books he passed away a few years ago but
1:27:46 he wrote several books one of them being peace is a beautiful one he’s written a
1:27:51 whole bunch of books peace in every step but he he as a Buddhist monk has this
1:27:56 mindfulness exercise and I’ve said it to people I’ve shared with people a couple
1:27:59 times they always look at me like I’m insane when I say it so I’ll share it
1:28:03 with you because you you brought up death if I bring it up too much in polite
1:28:05 conversation people just think I’m morbid and then they’re like all this
1:28:08 guy does talk about death and divorce we gotta hang out with like nice
1:28:12 or more fun people but he has this mindfulness exercise and it’s this he
1:28:16 says when you hug someone think about the fact that they’re there and you’re
1:28:24 hugging them then close your eyes and they think about that they’ve died and
1:28:28 this is the last time you’re hugging them before you let go of their body and
1:28:35 it’s taken away and then remember that they’re alive and you’re hugging like
1:28:41 how could that not choke you up like how could you not like when you hug your
1:28:48 dog you you will someday most likely have to put your dog down right you will
1:28:53 have to make that very painful but very responsible and loving decision that the
1:28:57 best of this dog’s life is over and that there’s nothing but pain ahead I’ve had
1:29:02 to do it several times in my life it’s heartbreaking but it’s the final act of
1:29:05 love and service to something that you’ve had to menu know for and taken care
1:29:11 of and have the duty of taking care of and I I know every time you I’ve had to
1:29:19 do that three times and just smelling it and going oh that’s it that’s it it’s
1:29:22 gone now
1:29:37 and the memory of that scent it’ll fade but like right now that dog’s alive
1:29:43 Pablo’s alive and you can smell him and and and and you’re not letting go of him
1:29:51 now he’s there he’s there right now like so how do you not right now just breathe
1:29:55 that in every chance you have because you don’t know how many more times you’ll
1:30:01 have and and I don’t when people say to me like well how can you think so much
1:30:06 about death or how can you think so much about Brexit how can you not haven’t
1:30:12 you ever lost anything have you forgotten what it was like to have it like did
1:30:17 you not keep in your mind like how beautiful this was and how it’s gone
1:30:25 like my mother died eight years ago and I found an old videotape I didn’t even
1:30:29 know like existed and it was my dad had like gotten a video camera and he’d
1:30:34 like shop you know all these video and I could hear my mother’s voice and like
1:30:40 hearing it I went like it oh my god like that was her voice like I haven’t heard
1:30:44 it in eight years and I heard it again and it was so familiar you know and I
1:30:50 thought to myself oh my god like I’m so glad I got to hear that but when she was
1:30:54 alive I never thought like oh my god she’s here like I get to hear her voice
1:31:00 because someday that’ll be gone like it’ll be gone the memory of her voice
1:31:07 will be gone it will fade every like tears in rain it will just fade and so to
1:31:13 to me like that if we could just have that presence of mind when it comes to
1:31:20 love like love is not permanently gifted it is loaned and the people you love the
1:31:25 dog you love the people they’re loaned to you and you’re loaned to them and if
1:31:29 you could just remember every day to treat it like something that’s
1:31:32 impermanent and that you’re losing all the time like because I’ll tell you
1:31:36 something I think it’s insane to love anything because of the pain that it’s
1:31:41 gonna cause but oh my god man I love that pain because it means I got to feel it
1:31:51 like I I I know when I got my dog Kaba I only got Kaba because Buster died if he
1:31:56 hadn’t died then I never would have had room in my life to get another dog so
1:32:02 in some horrible way I guess I’m glad that he died like but that’s not how it
1:32:08 works how it works is that he died Buster and I went I will never love again I
1:32:12 will never do this to myself again I will never feel this pain again it’s the
1:32:19 worst thing in the world I will never expose myself to that and then a friend
1:32:22 called me up and said hey man we’re doing an adoption event with this dog and I
1:32:26 just need you to watch him for the night he’s a puppy he’s got mange he’s a
1:32:29 little goofy thing but like I just need you to watch him for the night and I was
1:32:33 like yeah you know what I don’t have the kids this weekend like I’ll watch a dog
1:32:39 for a night and then you fell in love brings this stupid dog this little
1:32:46 stupid mange ridden worms and he walks in to my apartment and he pees
1:32:53 immediately on the floor and I thought oh shit I just got a dog I just got a
1:32:59 dog again I’m doing this again and that was 13 years ago and man I’m so glad
1:33:04 like I’m so glad and and he’ll he’ll sit there you know with his little gray
1:33:09 face now and he’ll sit there next to me and he’ll look at me he’s just is
1:33:13 crazy about me as I’m about him because he knows I saved him and I know he’s
1:33:20 saved me and he looks at me and I think to myself oh you’re gonna kill me like
1:33:23 you’re gonna kill me when I lose you and it’s gonna happen sooner rather than
1:33:27 later I’m not gonna have another 13 years I’m lucky if I have another year
1:33:34 but man like I don’t know I’ll do it I I’m so glad I did it he saved you yeah
1:33:40 yeah cuz he he he reminded me of a thing I forget that we all forget that I
1:33:48 have an infinite capacity for love no matter what I lose
1:33:56 because we’re just losing all of it all the time but that’s not a reason not to
1:34:03 love that’s not a reason not to look it’s it’s so brave to love and it’s only
1:34:09 brave because it’s scary like if you’re not scared it’s not brave it’s only
1:34:14 brave because it’s terrifying it’s terrifying to know like this thing’s
1:34:19 gonna break my heart then I’m gonna let it I’m gonna let it break my heart
1:34:23 because the joy that it’s gonna give me in the interim like I wouldn’t trade
1:34:26 that for anything in the world and you know right now if you say to me when
1:34:33 Caba passes away will I ever do it again I’m like nope absolutely not absolutely
1:34:38 not but you know what I’m lying I’m lying like I’m lying I’ll love again I
1:34:43 know it I know it and and I think it’s the same thing with romantic love our
1:34:50 hearts get broken we we you know we fall apart we break in relationship and we
1:34:55 heal in relationship and we recover from that breaking in relationship and I
1:35:05 think there’s something really really important there you’ve really
1:35:09 accomplished me the first person you got me to cry on a podcast it’s pretty it’s
1:35:11 really something to be proud of I cry all the time though to answer your
1:35:15 question yeah I cry constantly for a guy who’s like tattooed up and down and
1:35:19 does Brazilian jiu-jitsu for fun I cry constantly usually because something’s
1:35:25 beautiful I think that that’s what moves me the most is how beautiful it all is
1:35:32 like I I think this is all it’s a game we can’t win you know and we just keep
1:35:38 playing it and that’s so lovely like it’s so brave it’s so it’s so cool that
1:35:42 like it’s all ending all the time and we just keep doing it you know we just
1:35:46 keep doing it because if there’s something in our hearts that wants it you
1:35:52 know maybe that’s I don’t know like I’m not a religious person but maybe that’s
1:35:57 some insight into the nature of God that like we we come from something and we
1:36:01 disconnect and then we spend all our life trying to reconnect to something
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1:37:04 interesting because you I saw in your face when we halfway through the
1:37:08 conversation that you were talking about how beautiful love was and I could see
1:37:10 the emotion in your face when you’re talking about how beautiful love is and
1:37:13 it’s contrasting because at the start of the conversation I would have thought
1:37:16 that you thought marriage and love was just this like terrible idea obviously
1:37:20 there’s a distinction between the two it’s everything no it’s everything I
1:37:24 think I think doing what I do for a living I see that better than most
1:37:28 people like they because we just keep putting these giant bets on the table
1:37:32 and we wouldn’t do it if we didn’t think the prize was worth it you know but see
1:37:40 I also believe too that we need to start looking at romantic relationships
1:37:47 like chapters in a long book like I don’t soulmates we but I have to say
1:37:51 whoever created the term soulmate like I owe them a tremendous debt of gratitude
1:37:55 because they they really helped facilitate divorce as an industry because
1:38:03 the idea that we have a soulmate and that that’s the one always creates the
1:38:07 possibility that a this person’s perfect for us for how could I be dissatisfied
1:38:10 with them if they’re perfect for me I must depict the wrong one and
1:38:16 look that one over there that might be the perfect one why because I feel as
1:38:19 great about them as I did about this one when I first met it but I just don’t
1:38:23 remember that as much anymore so the soulmate thing oh it’s great for business
1:38:27 for me but I think it’s terrible for human beings I think you probably could
1:38:32 have a whole bunch of people that you could have had a very satisfying romantic
1:38:37 relationship with again not to keep preparing things to dogs but like because
1:38:41 you love the dog you have now does it mean you didn’t really love the dog you
1:38:46 have like that’s ridiculous it’s like people have children don’t go like well
1:38:49 I you know I couldn’t love anything more than this other child so I’m not having
1:38:52 any more children because you know I couldn’t possibly love it’s like no you
1:38:55 have an infinite capacity for love so if you have two children you have five
1:39:00 children like you love all the children that you have you know so I think you
1:39:07 should look at relationships as chapters just because a relationship ends in
1:39:11 something other than death right it ends in divorce it ends in a breakup
1:39:16 whatever it might be it doesn’t mean it wasn’t successful did you leave it a
1:39:21 better person than then you came to it with did they did your partner did did
1:39:26 you learn from it did you learn what you want or don’t want did you learn how
1:39:31 you should behave or how you shouldn’t behave did you learn something about how
1:39:39 you want and need to be loved or how you fail in your attempts to convey love
1:39:45 to someone else like it why not look at it as what was good for me in this
1:39:51 chapter may not be the sustaining thing like who you find attractive and what’s
1:39:56 compelling in your 20s and your 30s and your 40s and your 50s can be different
1:39:58 you talk to a lot of 20-something roles and say well Cardi you want when you’re
1:40:03 in your 10 Lambo want the Lambo great you put a car seat Lambo if you get one
1:40:08 car and that’s car gonna drive for the rest of your life okay and you’ve never
1:40:14 been 50 yet so you don’t know what you’re gonna want when you’re 50 now
1:40:17 there’s this idealized thing where everybody goes like well but you know
1:40:20 you’ll grow together and then what you’ll want you’ll grow together and
1:40:25 you’ll change the okay well what are you basing that on like is that is that a
1:40:31 thing is that demonstrably true or is that just like your hope like we we hope
1:40:35 we’ll grow together and we’ll grow in complimentary ways because why because of
1:40:39 proximity because we’re near each other we’re gonna grow in complimentary ways
1:40:43 like is that naive I think that might be naive like I don’t have any proof of
1:40:52 that God so many of the couples you see it must be confused as to whether this
1:40:56 relationship is actually broken or we’re just like not doing the work I think
1:40:58 that a lot of my friends like they’ll they’ll come to me and say my
1:41:01 relationship struggling and the first thing you try and figure out is whether
1:41:06 this is something that is fixable or it’s they’re the wrong and what do you do
1:41:12 in that equation you compare right yeah you compare and what do you compare to
1:41:18 something fake bullshit yeah compare to something fake you compare it to the
1:41:24 rom-com yeah which is basically porn for women yeah right like it’s it’s an
1:41:30 idealized stylized version you saw Titanic you you know why they had that
1:41:35 perfect romance cuz he died before you could screw it up you think ten years
1:41:39 later she’d have been like keep painting your French girls go no she wouldn’t
1:41:42 up she’d have been like forget it what are you doing get a job you know there
1:41:46 would have been issues in that relationship so it only was perfect
1:41:49 because it ended it ended before they could screw it up you know they end
1:41:52 the movie like the old saying I think it was Orson Welles who said you know
1:41:55 whether something’s a comedy or a tragedy depends on when you end the story
1:41:59 you know so it’s relationships like you ever want to test that theory in the
1:42:04 reverse go out with a couple that’s unhappy with each other and then say to
1:42:08 them so tell me about how you met all of a sudden they like soften tremendously and
1:42:13 they start like talking about who the who they were and who their partner was
1:42:17 back in that day when they when it was all a possibility and and they were
1:42:25 choosing each other you know and so I think there’s tremendous value in you
1:42:29 know a great example I always try to like take non-relationship examples of
1:42:37 relationship items so one of my sons when he was a teenager was very critical
1:42:41 of me as a father he was very like sort of dismissive of me as a father we were
1:42:44 talking about something and he’s sort of said like well dad you know you’re not
1:42:47 like the perfect father and I said well first of all like I don’t know what a
1:42:55 perfect father is I was like but what are you comparing me to your idea of a
1:43:02 perfect father or like a father you actually know and have seen because
1:43:07 here’s the thing if you compare me to your perfect father in your imagination
1:43:11 I’m gonna compare you to my perfect son in my imagination and guess what
1:43:19 you suck cuz cuz we all suck compared to the ideal of our imagination and by the
1:43:24 way I said don’t learn this lesson now because if you compare a woman you’re
1:43:30 in a relationship with with your imagined ideal of a woman I promise you
1:43:35 you will be dissatisfied for the rest of your life in your relationship and if
1:43:39 she compares you to her idealized imagination of what the perfect man
1:43:45 would be she’s gonna be disappointed we need to start comparing relationships to
1:43:51 real relationships but how are we gonna do that if we’re so deeply committed to
1:43:56 lying to each other about how great our relationship is what’s the quickest
1:43:59 someone’s gone from marriage to divorce that you’ve seen in terms of how long
1:44:03 the relationship lasted yeah 48 hours you’re joking now 48 hours but that’s
1:44:09 usually an annulment that’s I mean Vegas baby yeah it happens sometimes that
1:44:13 happens sometimes where people just have like immediate immediate regret you
1:44:17 know or they marry it on a whim I mean you can there’s no like there’s a waiting
1:44:21 period to get a firearm you know there’s a waiting period for almost anything
1:44:26 marriage go right now get married no problem you just go you just go to
1:44:30 just the piece pay $40 license fee and you’re married that’s it go to Vegas you
1:44:35 get a big guy named guy dressed like Elvis will marry you for 50 bucks you said
1:44:38 there’s two main reasons why people get divorced infidelity which we talked
1:44:41 about and the other one we haven’t talked about which is money I found this
1:44:46 very interesting because I wouldn’t imagine that money issues and it’s not
1:44:51 the money issues we think about it’s not someone going broke yeah it’s not that
1:44:56 in your book you talk about it being transparency yeah so so I mean money is
1:45:04 power right money has a lot to do with power and I think there’s a lot you know
1:45:07 there’s a it’s a misattributed Oscar Wilde but it’s not something he would
1:45:10 have said there’s the saying that that everything in the world is about sex
1:45:16 except sex which is about power and I think money is about power money is
1:45:20 about control money is about opportunities security it’s about a whole
1:45:25 bunch of things but it’s not really about money like money is just a currency
1:45:30 right that we trade in so I think money has a whole bunch of complicated stuff
1:45:34 tied up in it it’s why we can’t in polite conversation like talk about what
1:45:38 did you pay for that how much do you make you know it’s it’s considered sort
1:45:43 of indelicate to do that because we’ve loaded it up with all kinds of emotional
1:45:50 things about worth and relative worth and so you know it’s not uncommon that
1:45:54 people are dishonest with themselves and with each other about money it’s also
1:46:02 not uncommon in a relationship that one of two dynamics emerges either one
1:46:08 person has a tremendous amount of economic disparity like leverage or the
1:46:16 economic power that they can or can’t leverage because of marriage or both
1:46:21 people have somewhat equal bargaining positions and then something changes so
1:46:26 like I see a tremendous number of divorces when husband and wife are both
1:46:33 working and husband loses job big big precipit for divorce because men it
1:46:38 sends them spiraling into a depression that they’ve lost this job that much of
1:46:42 how they define themselves in sort of the traditional masculine gender role is
1:46:46 that of a provider and a protector and now I failed at that through no fault of
1:46:49 my own they laid off the entire Northeast region it’s not my fault but I no
1:46:53 longer have a job and then I have to go around and try to find one and redefine
1:46:59 myself and at the same time my spouse has managed to keep their job and I’ve
1:47:05 seen a lot of women that when their spouse loses the job and they become the
1:47:10 breadwinner they find that very unappealing that they they that a man
1:47:16 as the breadwinner was appealing the man as economic equal is appealing the man
1:47:20 as I have to take care of him financially and provide for him very
1:47:25 uncomfortable so I see it when a man loses his job I would love if they kept
1:47:30 statistics on these kinds of things but I can tell you in my practice I’ve seen
1:47:34 plenty of women lose their job it has no impact on the marriage men lose their
1:47:39 job in a heterosexual male-female marriage it is it is disastrous
1:47:45 consequence is a great deal of the time and I think that has a lot to do again
1:47:50 it’s not about money it’s about what the money symbolizes it’s about providing
1:47:56 it’s about power control respect for the ability to to go out there and like
1:48:00 forge something from the world we said at the start this conversation on this
1:48:03 subject of money sometimes you give legal advice and sometimes you give human
1:48:07 advice as it relates to money should I be telling my partner how much money I
1:48:10 have because I imagine there’s kind of two different legal art there’s a legal
1:48:14 answer in a human answer yeah I mean they’re entitled to find out so yeah
1:48:19 part of part of well in a divorce you have what’s called mandatory discovery
1:48:23 which is that I have a right to review all of your financials in that process so
1:48:28 a tremendous amount of what I do all day and my team is they we go through
1:48:32 people’s books like we go through the credit card slips we got through all
1:48:37 the economics to find out like where the money is where it went you know and
1:48:39 that’s how we find out what everybody spent on their girlfriend or boyfriend
1:48:43 and all the credit card receipts really when someone says I’ve got the receipts
1:48:48 like no I’ve got the receipts because I can I can subpoena them meaning I can
1:48:51 get them directly from the credit card company I can get them directly from
1:48:55 your employer all your information about what you actually were given and it’s
1:48:59 very hard to move money around without leaving a trace these days like well a
1:49:01 lot of people then must be trying to hide money because I think I’ve heard of
1:49:04 cases where there was one particular case of a footballer who apparently put
1:49:09 everything yes in his mother’s name did you see that me yes and the problem with
1:49:16 that is it’s a great story makes for a great story but there are in most
1:49:20 jurisdictions protections against that because it’s what’s called a transfer
1:49:25 in contemplation of divorce so it’s essentially a form it’s like a fraudulent
1:49:31 conveyance it’s it’s designed to thwart someone’s otherwise appropriate legal
1:49:37 remedy so if I know I’m being sued and that this person has a valid claim so I
1:49:43 sell my Lamborghini for five dollars to my brother the court can void that
1:49:49 transaction but what if I before that before there was any you know suspicion
1:49:52 of divorce or any issues I put everything in my my brother’s or my mom’s name you
1:49:56 can do that you’re allowed as long as it was not done yeah I actually have seen
1:50:00 that many times I I’ve seen well I represent a lot of people in finance and
1:50:06 people in finance have a way of seeing money very differently and I’ve seen
1:50:11 people who over a 20-year period like did things to take things out of the
1:50:16 marital estate so that they were beyond the reach of the court let’s be quite
1:50:19 surprising when you’re the other partner and you assume that your partner
1:50:23 super rich you go for the divorce and you find out that they have nothing it’s
1:50:27 more common that people don’t realize the debt structure that they’re living
1:50:31 under because a lot of people live under a tremendous debt structure this
1:50:34 happens in celebrity divorces a lot because a lot of it is the appearance of
1:50:39 wealth but it’s not actual wealth and so you know they’re they’re highly
1:50:44 leveraged and so what does that mean for the average person that doesn’t know
1:50:48 what credit card debt primarily credit card debt is a big thing where the cars
1:50:51 that you don’t own the cars you lease the cars so they’re actually owned by the
1:50:56 bank even your home if you’re home you know 70 80% of the equity in your home
1:51:00 is the bank’s mortgage then you don’t really have much you don’t own your home
1:51:03 the bank owns your home I think this is something people misunderstand is that
1:51:09 you get 50% of your partner’s assets and you get 50% of their debts of course
1:51:15 well you get your you get the assets net of liabilities yeah and most people like
1:51:20 their net worth is what do you own net of liabilities so there are a lot of
1:51:24 people making a very very good living but they don’t really have a lot of assets
1:51:28 because what they’ve done is they’ve leveraged in a tremendous way they have
1:51:31 they have mortgages and they have debts accumulating they have leased
1:51:35 automobiles they have you know jewelry that they took a personal loan to
1:51:40 guarantee or that they purchase jewelry knowing that it will immediately
1:51:45 depreciate in value you know the resale on it is much much lower than the value
1:51:49 that they just paid for it so it’s a it’s a it’s an illusion in many ways what
1:51:53 about the opposite of that where someone was in a relationship and their
1:51:58 partner thought they were like broke or didn’t have much money it turns out
1:52:04 that’s what you yeah what’s actually funnier is when somebody when someone
1:52:08 really through no fault of even their own comes into some massive amount of
1:52:14 money like I’ve had people I actually had a client who won the lottery and so he
1:52:20 went from like nothing yet like a minimum wage kind of a job and they lived a
1:52:26 very modest life and they were unhappily married but they were like well you know
1:52:29 can’t really afford to live as a couple we certainly can’t afford to live apart
1:52:32 like it’s bad enough we can’t pay our electric bill to have two electric
1:52:35 bills we’d have a hell of a time and he won the lottery he used to play the
1:52:40 powerball and he won like you know some insane amount of it’s like I don’t 50
1:52:45 million dollars so then after taxes it’s like a 50% tax it was like 25 million
1:52:50 dollars and he was beyond thrilled until he got told yes she’s gets half she
1:52:54 gets exactly half and he was like wait why I bought the ticket I’m like you are
1:52:58 one person in the eyes of the law if she won the lottery you’d get half of it
1:53:01 you won the lottery she gets half of that’s how it works did they stay
1:53:05 together no of course not she was like I’m we’re miserable with each other I
1:53:08 mean at that point he was suddenly very motivated that maybe we should stay
1:53:13 together but she was like I get wait a minute I get I get you know half a 25
1:53:17 million and I don’t have to deal with you anymore see ya now is that I was it
1:53:23 so I was in my office she had served him with divorce papers what about lgbt
1:53:28 couples yeah does everything we’ve said apply an equal measure do they do they
1:53:31 get divorced in the same yeah do they have the same issues we’re talking about
1:53:37 sex do they yeah you know I don’t I don’t think I think a lot of the same
1:53:44 things are true meaning impermanence soulmates all of those kinds of issues but
1:53:52 I think because gay and lesbian couples were forced to the outskirts of the
1:53:57 culture they were the outsider for so long so much of my life even as a 51
1:54:04 year-old man so much of my life I saw my gay and lesbian friends ostracized
1:54:09 marginalized and put on the periphery that when you are put on the periphery
1:54:15 there is as awful as that is it is unfair as that is an injustice that is and
1:54:19 how much it should rightly offend our sensibility to see people marginalized and
1:54:25 ostracized it creates a certain freedom where it’s like okay then we we don’t
1:54:29 have to follow those rules we can make our own rules invention yeah we can
1:54:33 just we can do it how we want to do it cuz you know what they think we stink
1:54:37 they think we’re the worst they think we’re just you know okay so then we can
1:54:42 we can do it how we want to do it cuz no matter what they’re not gonna accept us
1:54:45 so we might as well do it the way that makes sense for us instead of you know
1:54:50 tradition is peer pressure from dead people so if you’re someone who’s like
1:54:54 my parents have rejected me sorry tradition is is peer pressure exerted
1:54:58 by dead people I mean it’s really what it is I’m not saying traditions aren’t
1:55:03 valuable but at their core tradition is peer pressure from dead people like your
1:55:06 grandma did it this way so you should do it this way like okay your grandma lived
1:55:11 in a whole different time your grandma did not have the entire totality of human
1:55:18 wisdom in her hand that she could press a few buttons on so to say oh yeah like
1:55:23 the same rules the same institutions the same ways of being they should be
1:55:27 exactly the same that’s insane we didn’t make rules for non-heterosexual
1:55:32 relationships so they they’re getting to make their own rules and it turns out and
1:55:35 they did and they did like I have a lot of gay male friends I live in Chelsea
1:55:39 which is a section of New York City that for many years was primarily gay male
1:55:45 section to live in and so I happen to have a lot of gay male friends and it’s
1:55:49 very funny to me because when I would talk to them even before marriage
1:55:53 equality and before the sort of widespread acceptance of gay and lesbian
1:55:58 families and gay and lesbian lives and relationships is being valid like it
1:56:03 wasn’t that long ago that will in grace like will couldn’t kiss his boyfriend on
1:56:09 TV this was like the 90s that that was going on so this isn’t that long ago
1:56:15 man I have suits older than that like this is the thing so you know they they
1:56:19 used to my gay male friends used to have these very kind of non-conventional
1:56:23 permutations of relationships they’re like yeah you know we we can kiss other
1:56:27 people but like we can’t have sex with other people or we can do oral sex with
1:56:31 other people we can’t but we have to let them know that we’re doing like it
1:56:33 because they were like hey we’re on the outskirts we get to kind of make up our
1:56:40 own rules and there’s something very and what’s funny to me about that is when
1:56:44 marriage equality was coming about and I’ve been a consulting attorney for
1:56:49 for something called Lambda legal which is gay and lesbian legal defense which
1:56:55 you know 20 years ago it meant like the right to exist like the right to like
1:57:00 not be fired from your job because you’re gay like that seemed to me like
1:57:07 basic human rights you know the idea now like we’ve gone quite far in terms of
1:57:10 now there’s some controversies that I kind of go okay wait I’m not quite sure
1:57:13 even as someone who’s identified as a progressive liberal for quite some of
1:57:19 my life I don’t know that I can go this bridge too far but but the basic
1:57:24 fundamental right like the right to marry I always felt you know what if you
1:57:30 want to be able to participate in this unbelievably failing technology you
1:57:35 have every right in the world like if you hate gay people let them marry why
1:57:39 should they be having all the fun like let them marry and I remember sort of
1:57:43 thinking that jokingly and when marriage equality finally happened in the
1:57:47 United States I went to a good friend of mine who will remain nameless and I
1:57:51 said to him he’d been in a long-term relationship maybe like two years and I
1:57:56 said so many sites you like you know you married he goes no I’m not psyched why
1:58:00 would I be excited about this I said what do you mean you get married now he
1:58:04 goes yeah like I never had to deal with that I never had to have the
1:58:10 conversation it never had to be like you know where’s this going you know are
1:58:14 we in event he’s like if anything I could go like oh I would marry you but
1:58:21 I wish I wish we could but the government it’s out of my hands he’s
1:58:25 like now now I have to have this conversation now I have to like well
1:58:28 where’s this going and are we getting married and what do you think and if
1:58:31 we should we move in and should we have even kids should we have kids like it
1:58:35 used to be we were barred from having kids or adopting kids now we can adopt
1:58:40 kids it’s no problem it’s like great now I got to have that conversation so
1:58:45 again I’m not suggesting that that we shouldn’t have marriage equality we
1:58:49 shouldn’t have the freedom to adopt and to have children but I think it’s a
1:58:55 Faustian bargain for everybody and and so my experience of gay and lesbian
1:59:00 couples currently because I’m currently doing a number of divorces for lesbian
1:59:06 couples and gay couples I think that you know the honeymoon period isn’t quite
1:59:10 over yet like marriage equality is only been the law of the land for like you
1:59:14 know ten years something like that so give it some time we’ll see maybe
1:59:17 they’re better at it maybe they’ll be worse at it maybe they’ll be just as
1:59:24 equally awful at it as we are what about open relationships do they work more you
1:59:28 know I’m I’m not qualified to answer that question for the following reason I
1:59:35 meet a lot of people who have tried various types of ethical non-monogamy
1:59:42 polyamory but they all have in common that they’re in my office yeah so I see
1:59:48 all the ones that didn’t work yeah so me saying well I’ve met a lot of couples
1:59:52 where they tried the polyamory thing or they tried ethical non-monogamy and it
1:59:56 didn’t work and it led to divorce is like an oncologist saying like dude
2:00:01 everybody’s got cancer I met like 10 people today we have cancer right you’re
2:00:03 an oncologist like of course you meet a lot of people that have cancer like a
2:00:07 guy who’s a cab driver doesn’t meet that many people who have cancer like you
2:00:10 might meet one or two but he’s not gonna meet all of them but you work in
2:00:13 cancer so you’re gonna meet people like I happen to meet people getting divorced
2:00:20 so all of the bit I’ve met a lot of people that gave that a shot and it did
2:00:24 not work now again was that the liking case of emergency break glass like
2:00:29 let’s just try this have you ever seen it work I’ve never in any of my
2:00:36 friendships in any of my personal relationships I’ve never seen non-monogamy
2:00:44 successful but I don’t think we’re quite at a place as a culture where we’re
2:00:52 really being honest about monogamy like Esther Perel some of her work I think is
2:00:58 brilliant about monogamy infidelity because I I don’t think it’s quite I
2:01:05 think there are a lot of couples where there is non-monogamy happening but
2:01:10 there’s sort of a don’t ask don’t tell policy and there’s a sense of you know
2:01:16 if this is what you need to do to sort of stay happily committed because if we’re
2:01:22 honest a marriage is a whole bunch of different relationships in one
2:01:27 relationship it’s your roommate it’s your co-parent it’s your travel companion
2:01:32 it’s your family companion meaning like they have to deal with your mother-in-law
2:01:39 and your father-in-law – and like it’s a whole bunch of relationships and it may
2:01:45 be that men and women or a particular man and a particular woman in a
2:01:50 relationship have a different sense of how important sex is and you know it’s
2:01:58 okay to delegate it’s okay to say you know listen I don’t really like football
2:02:03 so go watch football with your friends you see that a lot where’s the partner
2:02:07 or the the other partner that you’re not dealing with has accepted yes the other
2:02:11 partner cheating well not cheating but they’ve allowed them to just quietly
2:02:16 go I’ve had a lot of people who come in and say to me he had a bunch of affairs
2:02:20 over the years and I just let it go like really or she had a bunch of affairs
2:02:24 over the years and it wasn’t we didn’t make an issue of it really and see just
2:02:28 the fact that you and it’s understandable I’m not criticizing you but the fact
2:02:34 that you go really is okay why would that be that shocking like people cheat all
2:02:37 the time people step outside of their relationship all the time people like
2:02:41 diversity of sexual partners okay so here’s the question then have you ever
2:02:48 seen an affair in the presence of someone being in love I don’t know that
2:02:52 be qualified to say whether someone was in love or not here’s what I will say
2:02:56 because love is an emotion and love is a verb I’ve seen I’ve certainly seen
2:03:03 people that were having affairs and in every aspect of their outward life
2:03:08 appear to be deeply committed to their marriage okay so they were okay they were
2:03:12 an economic provider they were a diligent parent they were attentive to
2:03:16 the emotional state of their partner they still had an active sexual
2:03:20 relationship with their partner but it wasn’t a let’s say a terribly prolific
2:03:26 one perhaps but you can’t cheat and be in love sure I mean listen just the term
2:03:30 cheat you know like like okay well then a cheat meal like you can be on a healthy
2:03:35 diet and enjoy a cheat meal you know and there’s something great about it
2:03:38 because it’s a cheat meal it’s like a little thing you do to treat yourself and
2:03:42 then you go back to eating healthy and regular right because look at there’s
2:03:47 something about the human desire for variety there’s something about passion
2:03:50 I mean you know I always say this I’m not a religious person but like we’re all
2:03:56 familiar with the ten commandments you know and theoretically if that story is
2:04:02 true which again it’s not provable or disprovable but God handed down ten rules
2:04:09 like that’s a talked to humanity and said here’s ten rules don’t kill good
2:04:18 one honor the Sabbath good one okay don’t cheat on your spouse don’t covet
2:04:24 your neighbor’s wife it got to it got two rules like he didn’t say thou shall
2:04:29 not kill like seriously don’t kill that’s right no but but don’t sleep with
2:04:36 other people got to add a ten rules from God theoretically like that’s amazing
2:04:42 that should show you how long this has been a thing how human of a problem or
2:04:48 issue or compulsion this is it’s the most human thing this desire like yeah
2:04:53 we want a you know Freud civilization and its discontents you know all of these
2:04:59 all of these brilliant minds from all over the world over the whole span of
2:05:05 time have struggled with monogamy have struggled with sex have struggled with
2:05:11 the desire for sex wars are fought over sex people rise and empires rise and
2:05:16 fall people rise and fall I used to say that like I think 90% of what most of
2:05:22 the men I do they do to get laid they do they why work hard so I can make money
2:05:26 why so I can get a nice car why so I can attract beautiful women like look at
2:05:30 look at the red pill space the man is fear all this everything is about making
2:05:34 yourself appealing to women or making yourself appealing to potential sexual
2:05:38 partners whether it’s just one or a whole diversity of them okay that’s a
2:05:46 different thing but it’s about that it’s about that so should we get married
2:05:53 should we get married I mean from a job security place I hope people continue to
2:05:57 get married because if they don’t I’ll be out of a job but in seriousness I
2:06:06 don’t think I think we will continue to get married should we I don’t think we
2:06:10 should say all of us should I think we should ask the question I think we
2:06:14 shouldn’t assume we should get married that’s what I think I think that we
2:06:18 should ask the question what is the problem to which marriage is a solution
2:06:25 and do I have that problem and will it solve that problem because the fact that
2:06:33 it’s an odd question to say when someone says I want to get married that it
2:06:41 would be odd for me to go why yeah why is that weird like if you said I want to
2:06:46 have a podcast why it’s a perfectly reasonable question I want to go to
2:06:52 Florida why like the weather I have a friend there whatever I want to get
2:06:57 married why what do people respond when when you typically ask that question
2:07:01 what’s the most frequent response to the reason for the invention of the
2:07:05 technology of marriage because I posted many years ago that I I was
2:07:08 suspicious about marriage and I remember all the comments that I got and
2:07:11 different people are doing different things well it’s it holds them it holds
2:07:14 the controversial it’s super controversial people get a very attached
2:07:18 to it I remember one of them I remember was a case that it’s the best
2:07:22 environment to raise kids in when the parents are in that kind of bond I had
2:07:24 another one which means that you stay and you solve the problems instead of
2:07:28 running away so marriage is really good for that regard but but you know the
2:07:32 reasons why people say marriage makes sense what are those key reasons why I
2:07:36 think that there’s religious reasons that’s a big one I get all the time like
2:07:40 like in the comments there will be like a billion people that go marriage is a
2:07:45 covenant between God and as if like I hadn’t heard of this you know as if I
2:07:50 didn’t go to Catholic school my entire life like yes I get it I get it that’s a
2:07:55 belief you have and that’s okay like my beliefs don’t require that you believe
2:07:59 them yours may require that I believe them and that’s okay like we’re gonna
2:08:04 agree to disagree if your fundamental thing is that God spoke to you and told
2:08:10 you a thing whether it was in written form or verbally like I can’t argue with
2:08:14 that you sound like you’re a big fan of love and not a big fan of marriage I’m a
2:08:18 fan of marriage to the extent that it facilitates love but I just don’t see a
2:08:22 nexus between those two things I don’t think these two things have that much
2:08:25 to do with each other and I think to the extent that they have something to do
2:08:28 with each other they probably could have existed without the marriage like I
2:08:34 think I think marriage is a symbol of something and I don’t think you need the
2:08:38 symbol to have the something it’s confusing a finger pointing at the moon
2:08:44 with the moon like it’s it’s confusing the the simp like marriage is supposed to
2:08:52 be I think a symbol and I love it for that I love the idea of two people who
2:08:58 are so excited about how they make each other feel and how the effect they have
2:09:03 on each other and the fact that the other has on them that they want to get up in
2:09:11 front of a bunch of people who they know and say this is my person I found them
2:09:16 and I’m I’m gonna stick with them through good and through bad and I’m gonna see
2:09:21 their blind spots and I’m gonna not be a yes man I’m gonna tell them when they
2:09:25 get it wrong but with love and I want them to do the same thing for me I want
2:09:28 them to cheer for me and I want them to be on my side and I want them to
2:09:31 disagree with me when I need to be disagreed with so I don’t make really
2:09:34 dumb decisions just because I got a cheerleader all the time behind me like I
2:09:37 got a cheerleader because I need one the world sucks and everybody’s always
2:09:40 criticizing me and I criticize myself constantly but having this person next
2:09:44 to me who goes man you can do this come on get up you can do it you know or I
2:09:48 fell down it’s okay people fall down you’re great get up come on you can do
2:09:53 it or who’s gonna say to me you know yeah that’s I know you’re doing this for
2:09:56 this reason and I get it but I don’t I don’t think it’s gonna make you feel what
2:09:58 you think it’s gonna make you feel so maybe you don’t do it and I’m gonna go
2:10:02 okay they wouldn’t say that if it wasn’t out of love so I’m gonna hear that and
2:10:05 I’m not gonna be afraid of it like and I want to get up and we’re gonna say this
2:10:08 to a bunch of people and then we’re gonna wear rings because it’ll be a
2:10:12 reminder for us and for the world that I got a person I got a person and that’s
2:10:17 my person you know dude how do you not cheer for that that’s incredible it’s
2:10:21 great you can have that without the yeah of course without the contract you
2:10:24 want to get the government involved like well you have to get the government
2:10:30 involved really like you that story I just told that’s that’s the story that’s
2:10:35 the feeling that’s the interpersonal connect when you say to most people they
2:10:40 say I’m getting married you go why they first of all they look at you like you
2:10:43 have lobsters coming out of your nose like they’ve never the question never
2:10:47 even occurred to them why because you get married that’s what you do that’s
2:10:53 insane but if you say to them why they’ll usually say something that’s a
2:10:58 total non-answer well I’m in love okay what does that mean you have to get
2:11:02 married well because I want to you know I want to maintain that connection okay
2:11:08 how how specifically is marriage going to maintain that connection and again if
2:11:12 it’s a public declaration okay I think there’s value in a public
2:11:15 declaration if I want I don’t smoke cigarettes but if I wanted if I was
2:11:19 smoking cigarettes I want to quit smoking cigarettes there’s value in
2:11:24 getting up and saying hey guys just y’all know I’m gonna quit smoking and if you
2:11:28 love me I want you to help hold me accountable so if you see me smoking or
2:11:31 if I ask you for a cigarette don’t give me one because I really do want to quit
2:11:35 smoking you know there’s value in that there’s value in the tribe all going
2:11:38 alright man you know that’s what you want let’s do it we’re gonna we’re
2:11:42 committed to it same thing with marriage if matter if the purpose of marriage is
2:11:45 to say hey guys it’s really hard to be monogamous I don’t know if anyone’s
2:11:49 noticed so and like the world is really antagonistic to marriage but like I
2:11:53 really want all the great things that come from having a person who sees my
2:11:57 blind spots and who’s supporting me and I’m supporting them and the symbiosis the
2:12:01 beauty of that relationship and the connection of those two people so I
2:12:06 want you to hold me accountable I want you my friend that when I you see me
2:12:10 looking at the other girl that you go to me hey bro forget about what you got at
2:12:12 home come on man you got a good you got a good one what are you doing you know
2:12:17 like I want you to hold me accountable I want women out there to see that wedding
2:12:22 ringing to go yep not him not him even if he talks to me not him he’s married
2:12:27 let’s let’s leave that one why because if it was my one I wouldn’t want him
2:12:31 talking to some other girl so I’m not gonna talk to him you know instead it’s
2:12:35 not what we do that is not what we do as a culture you ever want to get laid
2:12:39 put on a wedding ring and go out suddenly you’re safe suddenly you’re a guy
2:12:42 they can talk to it he’s not on the make because he’s married he’s obviously
2:12:47 wearing an outward symbol of his relationship again like this is crazy
2:12:53 it’s crazy because we’re just not being honest about what this thing really is
2:13:01 marriage is a legal status it’s a government intervention it’s it everything
2:13:06 else is just stuff we’re putting on top of it and calling it that thing but you
2:13:12 can have all that stuff without having legally the status of marriage James we
2:13:14 have a closing tradition on this podcast where the last guest leaves a
2:13:17 question for the next guest not knowing who they’re gonna be leaving it for but
2:13:21 I told them they’re leaving it for and the question that’s been left for you is
2:13:24 a brilliant one because it’s very on-topic and once in a while this
2:13:33 happens when was the first time you experienced true love
2:13:38 oh boy you make me cry again
2:13:46 was the first time I experienced true love gosh that’s a great question and
2:13:52 just the fact that just experience of being asked that question is running my
2:14:00 mind through the most lovely slideshow of so many times I felt loved and felt
2:14:06 deep love so boy what a lovely thing to ask every morning if I could like that’s
2:14:12 a lovely question because just the fact that there’s just the fact that there’s
2:14:15 a competition going on in my brain right now is the greatest thing in the world
2:14:20 because all the stuff that’s running through my head and it’s so diverse
2:14:27 there’s me kissing an amazing woman for the first time and feeling that there’s
2:14:36 my sons each of my sons kissing me or hugging me there’s kava and buster
2:14:42 pickles lady Maggie every dog I ever had and there’s an image I can imagine of
2:14:48 it there’s my the first thing that popped into my head which is gonna sound
2:14:55 crazy but maybe it’s the stage in life that I’m in when I was a little boy my
2:15:01 my father my father was a not a particularly effusively loving guy he
2:15:07 was a Vietnam veteran he was a bad alcoholic he’s been sober now for eight
2:15:14 years I’m very proud of him and he’s in his eighties now but growing up he was
2:15:22 very unemotional to me and I remember I had this best friend Tommy and we had
2:15:27 pizza one night at my my parents house and you know pizzas cut into like eight
2:15:32 slices and Tommy and I were like you know growing boys we wanted to eat you
2:15:35 know the crane we ate really fast you know we each ate our three slices and
2:15:41 my dad would have had two left you know for him and we ate so fast that that our
2:15:45 six slices were gone and there was just two left and I know my dad was like
2:15:51 super hungry but he was like if you guys want you can have you can have them and
2:15:56 I remember you know we just ate them like you would obliviously like a kid and a
2:16:01 couple of weeks later I was at my friend’s house same friend and his they
2:16:04 ordered pizza and there was like you know same thing eight slices and and his
2:16:14 dad ate like four slices and I remember thinking my dad would never do that and
2:16:18 I remember I felt very loved because I remember thinking like this is a guy who
2:16:23 never said he loved me like ever it just wasn’t his vocabulary it wasn’t who he
2:16:31 was but I just remember thinking like oh he loves me like it it satisfied him
2:16:37 more to see me eating that extra piece of pizza than what eating that piece of
2:16:43 pizza would have given to him and I remember thinking like oh he loves me so
2:16:52 I would say to me that was a very pure and true kind of love and when I had my
2:16:59 sons I remember thinking oh I get I get that like they can have the whole pizza
2:17:08 so to me that’s you know that’s true love is when it’s it’s not even
2:17:12 sacrificing to give that the joy of the other person just gives you so much joy
2:17:18 and fills you so much that that it’s just the greatest thing
2:17:27 James thank you thank you for all the work you do you’ve given me so interesting
2:17:30 you know I went into this conversation thinking I’d learn about divorce and
2:17:35 relationships but I leave this conversation with a profound appreciation
2:17:40 for love that’s great in a way that I don’t think I’ve ever had before and I
2:17:44 also with that profound appreciation I think causes you to want to take a
2:17:48 certain set of actions I hope so then I think about what you said about the
2:17:52 impermeence of love you’ve made me want to cuddle Pablo because I know that I
2:17:55 don’t have many years left with him but also there’s many people in my life that
2:17:59 maybe I do have many years with I don’t know how many years I have with them you
2:18:03 don’t and I have to tell you I think I’m really grateful to hear you say that I
2:18:11 hope you do that because I really think we are the most we are the most aware of
2:18:16 the joy of our good health when we’re in the presence of illness we are most
2:18:22 aware of the beauty of life when we’re in the presence of death and the
2:18:29 impermanence and we can be the most aware of the power and presence and
2:18:36 beauty of romantic love when we remember that that it is impermanent it is not
2:18:42 permanently gifted it’s loaned and that we’re blessed to have it for however long
2:18:49 we have it so if if that’s what anyone walks out of talking to a divorce lawyer
2:18:55 you’re thinking about then then mission accomplished thanks for having me
2:19:03 we released it the first time and it sold out instantly we released
2:19:07 conversation cards again and they sold out instantly for a second time we’ve
2:19:12 updated the cards put all the new questions in and we’ve introduced a
2:19:16 twist on the back of the conversation cards now we’ve got different levels of
2:19:21 vulnerability so level one these are more sort of surface level questions and by
2:19:25 the time you get down to level three the questions become a little bit more
2:19:30 challenging a little bit more vulnerable and that’s really where connection
2:19:35 happens the brand new version 2 updated conversation cards are out right now at
2:20:03 the conversation cards dot com

0:00:03 [Music]
0:00:06 Speaking of controversial topics, one of the things that’s become surprisingly
0:00:10 controversial over the last couple of years is, and probably for a little
0:00:16 while longer, since the 17th century, is this idea of
0:00:19 accountability, which to me seems like much of the antidote to
0:00:22 self-sabotage. It’s like taking personal responsibility for
0:00:25 your life and your situation. I’ve heard you talk about this. I actually think
0:00:28 this was the first, one of your first videos that caught my
0:00:33 attention, was you talking about taking responsibility in a really,
0:00:36 you know, a fairly direct way. So, tell me how
0:00:40 taking responsibility, what that means to you, but how that helped you to rise out
0:00:44 of that phase you had from 14 to 24. Yeah, oh, it was huge.
0:00:48 It was huge, and it had to be one of the first things that I did.
0:00:53 Actually, as I think about this and sort of speak out loud,
0:00:58 I think what allowed me to get and stay sober, that eighth and final time,
0:01:02 was taking personal responsibility. I think all of the other times I had
0:01:06 wanted to place blame on a lot of things outside of me. So, my dad
0:01:10 would have been the easiest person because he was an alcoholic,
0:01:14 and because of his abuse, and because of everything we experienced, and because of
0:01:17 the instability, because of coming to a new country,
0:01:24 moving to a part of the UK where just me, my sister, and Curtis are the only
0:01:28 black kids, the adversity I experienced from that. So, I think there were so many
0:01:32 ways that I could externalize, right? But I think the moment that I was able to
0:01:35 say, “Okay, well, Africa, what part did you have to play in this?”
0:01:39 So, you’ve experienced all of this adversity. What now?
0:01:42 What fucking now? No one else can do it for you.
0:01:48 And I think that helped me so much. And another thing that I had to do,
0:01:51 which is a part of that responsibility and accountability,
0:01:56 was making amends. So, people that have followed the 12-step program, for example,
0:02:00 will know that making amends is a huge part of it. I didn’t follow the 12-step
0:02:05 program. What’s the 12-step program? So, 12-step is AA, essentially, Alcoholics
0:02:10 Anonymous. You go through a process, a 12-step process, of accountability,
0:02:14 essentially. And one of those steps is making amends,
0:02:19 reaching out to the people that you’ve harmed and making amends. And that’s
0:02:23 what I had to do. And I really did that. And there was a lot of
0:02:25 shame. There was a lot of guilt. There were a lot of people
0:02:28 that didn’t want to hear it. But there were a lot of people that were very
0:02:32 grateful that even after all of these years, I’m coming to them and
0:02:38 acknowledging something that I did or played a part in. And only then could I
0:02:43 actually move forward with my sobriety, knowing that I am responsible. Yes, I’ve
0:02:50 experienced a lot of adversity. But I am the one that gets to decide what now.
0:02:55 So, fast forward to finding ourselves in a culture where even just conversations
0:02:59 around personal responsibility have been politicized. Because I’ve
0:03:02 noticed they’re labeled as right-wing. The moment, isn’t that weird?
0:03:05 It’s mad. It’s mad.
0:03:11 Isn’t that crazy? The moment you say, “You do realize there is a lot in your life
0:03:15 that you can control. You’re called a bigot.”
0:03:22 I’m a puppet and I’m a victor. And there’s nothing I can control.
0:03:27 And it’s that political party that did this.
0:03:33 And that is unfollowed.
0:03:39 It’s fucking crazy. It’s mad. And I speak to my family and my friends
0:03:42 about all of these things quite a lot actually. And because I’m still very
0:03:47 much in touch with everyone back home in Zimbabwe. And because I have that
0:03:51 perspective, when I compare to that part of the
0:03:55 world, to the Western world, this just seems like a completely
0:03:59 different world, like some kind of show. It can’t be real.
0:04:03 That people can get upset to know that there are things in your life that you
0:04:07 can control. Yes, you might have experienced X, Y and Z.
0:04:11 But you are responsible for how you move forward. Yes, there might be other
0:04:14 components. Maybe it is the system. Maybe it is your familial
0:04:19 environment, whatever the details might be. But there are also things within
0:04:23 your control. The fact that people can label that
0:04:28 as being bigoted the moment you say, “I just…”
0:04:31 Wouldn’t you want that to be the case? Wouldn’t you want to have things that you
0:04:33 can control? The thought of being powerless to my
0:04:37 circumstances is the most terrifying thing in the world.
0:04:42 That’s why I refer to it as a puppet, that someone else is pulling
0:04:44 these strings. And that I’m powerless to my
0:04:48 situation. So I find it empowering and liberating
0:04:51 to say, “There is a lot of things I can control. Yes, I’m broke. Yes, I’m in
0:04:54 this situation. But there’s something that I can do.”
0:04:58 And I have to also express the nuance that you did, which is
0:05:01 there are a lot of people that are disabled. There are a lot of people that
0:05:04 have found themselves in horrifically unfortunate
0:05:09 circumstances through no fault of their own. Yes. But I find it really
0:05:13 important for my sanity of mind and my optimism for the future to know that
0:05:16 there is something… Often there is something that I
0:05:20 can do to change my situation. Absolutely. That’s a controversial idea.
0:05:25 Imagine that. Would you have thought that? I can hear the people typing out at you.
0:05:32 Is it for you to say? Yeah. What is it though? Do you
0:05:35 think you know what that is? Yeah, because it holds a mirror up to you. It
0:05:38 makes you feel like, for some people, and I think it was for me at some point as
0:05:41 well, holding that mirror up and saying, “Do you know what?
0:05:45 I might have had part to play in this and I’m actually…
0:05:48 I can have a part in getting out of this situation.
0:05:52 For some people is the evidence of their inadequacy, that they just don’t have the
0:05:56 self-esteem to confront. So it’s easier to blame. Blame is a nice
0:05:59 shield. It’s a nice way to deflect the attack against my already fragile
0:06:02 self-esteem. I would do that. Of course, when I was younger and
0:06:06 someone might point at something, blame was a way for you not to hit me in the
0:06:10 self-esteem. It was a way of saying, “No, no, no, no, no. That’s not because I’m
0:06:12 inadequate or because I’m not capable or I’m not
0:06:16 smart or because I’m not working hard. It’s because of this other thing.”
0:06:23 And so leave me alone, Africa blocked. Do you know what I mean? That’s my analysis
0:06:28 a bit often. For some people, it feels like
0:06:32 evidence of their inadequacy. And why would someone not like that?
0:06:36 Well, because it makes you feel like shit. Yeah.
0:06:42 And I think because we’re also being encouraged, especially the younger
0:06:46 generation, who I really now more than ever want
0:06:50 to make more of an effort to really speak directly to them,
0:06:54 is because I think we’re sort of training each other to not prioritize
0:06:59 emotional resilience because along with personal responsibility, resilience is
0:07:04 also another controversial word. This idea that you can
0:07:09 build a strong foundation within yourself that even if something happens
0:07:12 externally outside of you, you are able to deal with it.
0:07:16 You don’t have to go into that deep, dark place and think that is it full stop.
0:07:22 So I think because most people are not emotionally resilient and are not
0:07:26 nurturing and sort of cultivating that within themselves,
0:07:30 it continues that cycle where you just end up in perpetual victimhood.
0:07:34 And then we are in a culture that rewards victims.
0:07:38 And I think self-correction there actually, and I want to make this very
0:07:42 clear, that there is a very real difference between being a victim,
0:07:45 someone who has genuinely been victimized
0:07:50 and making victimhood an identity. There’s a huge difference between the two.
0:07:55 But I think when you start to make victimhood an identity for anything and
0:07:57 everything, that’s when it might be time to actually hold a
0:08:01 mirror up to yourself. On that word resilience, I think
0:08:04 the reason why resilience is in part at least why it’s a
0:08:09 controversial topic is because it kind of starts to merge into the
0:08:13 lane of like mental health. And people when they think of resilience,
0:08:17 they think of like shut up and deal with it. You know what I mean?
0:08:21 And then that acts in conflict to the narrative of like express yourself,
0:08:25 feel your emotions. It’s okay to be not okay.
0:08:28 So talk to me about the distinction you make between those two things
0:08:31 and your relationship with both. You know what? I guess this is where I would
0:08:35 bring it back round to holding those multiple truths.
0:08:39 Because why do we think that we have to choose between one or the other?
0:08:44 Why can’t you be both emotionally resilient as an individual, as a being,
0:08:48 and allow yourself to express yourself, and allow yourself to be vulnerable,
0:08:52 and allow yourself to have those real low moments that we all do.
0:08:55 And I think both can coexist. It’s really not one or the other.
0:08:59 So what is the opposite of resilience then?
0:09:05 The word “weakness” comes to mind, but I don’t know if that’s accurate.
0:09:09 I don’t know if that’s accurate to what…
0:09:15 I’m not sure. But it’s interesting because the word “weakness”
0:09:23 comes to mind, and maybe a part of me, or even for someone listening, we
0:09:29 we think associating the word “weak” to yourself means there’s something wrong
0:09:33 with you, that it’s a bad word. I think there’s this idea that it’s
0:09:38 bad to be weak, or it’s not acceptable to be weak. But I think we all have moments
0:09:43 of weakness. But I don’t know if that would be the opposite of resilience.
0:09:48 What do you think? So if we’re talking about emotional resilience, maybe the
0:09:54 opposite is emotional, maybe fragility? Maybe? I don’t know.
0:09:57 It’s something within that realm, right? Yeah.
0:10:01 And the reason I’m basically playing devil’s advocate with myself to see if
0:10:06 to see if it is too true. We were describing earlier about being
0:10:08 expressive and being in touch with your emotions. Is that
0:10:11 being emotionally fragile? Or is that something else?
0:10:16 I wonder if another word that’s come into mind, for some reason, soft.
0:10:21 I think it’s both possible to be soft and whatever you would consider hard.
0:10:26 Because just in very simple language, when I hear the word “resilience”, you have to be
0:10:31 hard. There’s something sort of, it’s not necessarily stoic. But it’s sort of that
0:10:34 kind of language, where you’re really fully grounded in yourself,
0:10:39 your back is straight, you’re internally up, you know. Whereas the other side of
0:10:44 that is maybe there is an element of fragility, which is fine. I don’t think
0:10:47 it’s a bad thing. Allowing yourself to be soft, allowing
0:10:52 yourself to be, to not be as strong all of the time. So I think…
0:10:56 It’s interesting, because on one hand you’re saying be resilient, but then also be
0:11:01 the opposite of resilience. But you can be both.
0:11:05 There could also be context, right? It can be context-specific behaviour.
0:11:08 So you can be resilient in the sense that when someone
0:11:13 pelt’s abuse at you in your Instagram DMs, you have the resilience to
0:11:18 not internalise that, not let it destroy your day or your mood and to move on.
0:11:22 But then you can be, I guess emotionally, you know, then your dog might die. I’ve
0:11:25 got a lovely dog running around somewhere here. My dog might die.
0:11:30 And that is real cause for emotional expression and to be emotionally,
0:11:34 to be soft and to be open and to feel. Yes.
0:11:38 So maybe it’s context-specific behaviour. Yes, I think so.
0:11:44 I think so. But again, I think they can both coexist.

0:00:07 Anyone who ever uses the word calorie as a unit of measure fire them because they don’t get it
0:00:09 Calories are not the issue. This is all about
0:00:12 That’s the problem. That’s how you lose weight
0:00:19 Dr. Robert Lustig a leading public health authority on the role sugar has on fueling the world’s most
0:00:25 destructive human conditions and answers how we can regain control of our health if you consume one sugar beverage per day
0:00:33 Viewers for diabetes goes up by 29% so this is a big problem. We also know that if you have high sugar consumption
0:00:39 It’s got multiple detrimental effects such as mental health problems cognitive decline early death
0:00:44 We also know that it’s the primary driver of ADD, but the problem is sugars addictive and
0:00:50 73% of all of the items in the grocery store are spiked with added sugar by the food industry
0:00:55 Because they know when they add it you buy more you can’t believe what they’re telling you if
0:00:57 They say something is healthy
0:01:06 it’s usually the opposite and I’m part of numerous lawsuits suing the food industry because they knew that sugar was a problem, but they
0:01:13 Paid off scientists to say it wasn’t you’ve been had a lot of people don’t have time to be doing a fine tooth comb over every
0:01:16 Single thing that they’re putting into their body. They’re not a scientist agreed
0:01:19 So what advice do we give that is simple and actionable?
0:01:25 Food can be medicine food can also be poison and the question is how do you figure out which is which?
0:01:27 So here’s the secret
0:01:31 Congratulation star over CEO gang we’ve made some progress
0:01:38 63% of you that listen to this podcast regularly don’t subscribe which is down from 69%
0:01:41 Our goal is 50%
0:01:45 So if you’ve ever liked any of the videos we’ve posted if you like this channel
0:01:47 Can you do me a quick favor and hit the subscribe button?
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0:01:54 Thank you and enjoy this episode
0:02:04 Dr. Robert Lustig on the front of your book it says the hacking of the mind
0:02:12 Very strong words to use indeed whose mind has been hacked and who is doing the hacking yours mine?
0:02:14 everyone’s
0:02:16 Who’s been doing it? Well?
0:02:19 pretty much
0:02:21 anyone with a
0:02:24 Belief system that’s not yours and
0:02:28 that’s pretty much everybody the bottom line is
0:02:31 We have been sold a bill of goods
0:02:37 We as a society we as individuals have been sold a bill of goods and the
0:02:46 idea of the book the reason I put the book together is because it actually makes us miserable it has stolen
0:02:52 Our birthright and our birthright is to be happy and we are not
0:02:57 if anything, we’re the opposite of happy we’re extraordinarily unhappy just look at the
0:03:04 Incidents of depression around the world not just in America not just in the UK, but everywhere
0:03:09 the World Health Organization now says that 5% of all of
0:03:15 The people on the planet are clinically depressed and here in America. It’s at 22%
0:03:18 So we’re really unhappy
0:03:23 The question is why is this if you know our goal is to be happy?
0:03:28 It’s in the Declaration of Independence life liberty in the pursuit of happiness. Well, we’re not
0:03:31 so
0:03:32 why
0:03:35 The reason is because we have substituted
0:03:38 pleasure for happiness
0:03:41 What’s the difference between pleasure and happiness?
0:03:43 well
0:03:46 Pleasure short-lived happiness is long-lived
0:03:53 Pleasure is a visceral you feel it in your body happiness is ethereal you feel it above the neck
0:04:01 Pleasure is taking like from a casino happiness is giving like habitats for humanity
0:04:07 Pleasure is experienced alone happiness is usually experienced in social groups
0:04:11 Pleasure can be achieved with substances
0:04:18 Happiness cannot be achieved with substances the extremes of pleasure whether they be substances or behaviors
0:04:24 So substances like cocaine amphetamine nicotine alcohol sugar or behaviors
0:04:31 Shopping gambling social media internet gaming pornography in the extreme all lead to addiction
0:04:38 There’s an a holic after every one of those shop a holic sex a holic chocoholic alcoholic etc
0:04:41 but there’s no such thing as being addicted to too much happiness and
0:04:45 Lastly number seven the one that is the reason for the book
0:04:48 Pleasures dopamine happiness is serotonin
0:04:51 And they are not the same
0:04:53 So two different
0:05:01 Neurotransmitters two different sets of receptors two different areas of the brain two different mechanisms of action two different clearance
0:05:03 mechanisms
0:05:05 dopamine is an
0:05:10 Editorial neurotransmitter. What does that mean means when dopamine is released in
0:05:15 The area of the reward center the nucleus accumbens. It’s an actual
0:05:19 Anatomic structure in the brain, which you can see on imaging
0:05:24 When dopamine is released there and it binds to its receptor like so
0:05:29 You get the truth you transduce the feelings of reward
0:05:34 Okay, and reward is good reward is what gets you out of bed in the morning if you don’t have reward, you know
0:05:36 Basically, yeah
0:05:42 Shrivel up and die. Okay reward is essential to the survival of the species
0:05:50 Orgasm is reward. Okay, you know, you need it. It’s it’s part of daily life
0:05:57 But okay too much reward is a different story and the reason is because dopamine because it’s an excitatory neurotransmitter
0:05:59 it
0:06:04 Causes the next cell to fire well if it causes the next cell to fire and fire and fire
0:06:07 That cell dies
0:06:10 Neurons want to be tickled not bludgeoned
0:06:15 Chronic overstimulation of any neuron leads to neuronal cell death
0:06:20 So that post synaptic neuron with the dopamine receptor, it’s got a plan B
0:06:27 It’s got a way of mitigating that negative response. It down regulates the receptor
0:06:35 So now more dopamine less receptors less chance that a molecule will find a receptor to bind to well
0:06:41 That means your the gain the amplitude on the reward is going down
0:06:48 More and more for less and less the more law of diminishing returns like an addiction like a tolerance
0:06:55 Yeah, tolerance is one half of addiction and then when the neurons do start to die that is addiction exactly right so
0:07:03 Dopamine drives addiction and it doesn’t matter what the cause of the dopamine release is in the extreme
0:07:05 It will be addictive
0:07:07 Now serotonin
0:07:13 Does not that does not downregulate its own receptor because it’s not an excitatory neurotransmitter
0:07:20 It’s an inhibitory one. So do you need to downregulate an inhibit an inhibitory response? No an inhibitory means one
0:07:27 Well, it means puts the next neuron to rest. Okay, instead of stimulating instead of firing. It’s actually calming
0:07:30 Okay, right, so
0:07:35 There’s no such thing as being addicted to too much happiness because the receptors are still there
0:07:42 But there’s one thing that down regulates serotonin and that’s dopamine. So the more pleasure you seek
0:07:46 The more unhappy you get and we’ve been told
0:07:52 For the last hundred years that pleasure is happiness
0:07:57 Neurologically the pathways are entirely different as you say in between pleasure and happiness
0:08:01 one of the ways that we have been
0:08:05 hijacked
0:08:08 Neurologically and via our dopamine receptors is
0:08:13 Through what we eat and your book fat chance covers this really profoundly in New York Times best seller
0:08:20 The first word in the subtitle there is the word sugar. Mm-hmm. I’ve heard a lot about sugar
0:08:26 Yep, I see it in adverts. I turn over the back of anything I eat and it says this word added sugar is
0:08:35 Sugar really a problem in society. Has it really hijacked us? Yes. The short answer is not only is it a problem? I
0:08:37 personally
0:08:44 Think it’s the biggest problem. It’s not the only problem, but I think it is the biggest one
0:08:46 Now, why do I say that?
0:08:47 from a
0:08:49 systemic health issue
0:08:52 The biggest problem was trans fats
0:08:59 What’s the trans fat trans fat is a fat that is has a double bond in it
0:09:01 That is flipped
0:09:04 so normal
0:09:12 Unsaturated fats like olive oil like canola oil like rapeseed oil like sesame oil like peanut oil
0:09:20 Etc. They all have a double bond in them, but the double bond is in one direction a
0:09:23 Trans fat has the double bond in the opposite direction
0:09:30 One way to make a trans fat is to heat it you put enough heat across the double bond and it will flip by itself
0:09:33 So if you heat olive oil too high
0:09:40 You can actually make trans fats at home, but the food industry used trans fats for food stabilization
0:09:47 for to increase shelf life. They’ve been using it in baked goods since the 1920s the
0:09:51 Scientist who first figured out that trans fats were dangerous
0:09:54 Fred Kumaro figured this out in
0:10:03 1957 but it wasn’t until 1988 that anybody took them seriously and then we started doing research on it and realized
0:10:08 Oh my god, this stuff is killing animals and killing people and finally in
0:10:10 2013
0:10:14 So over 60 years after the initial
0:10:16 science
0:10:19 The FDA finally banned trans fats in our food
0:10:23 Without question trans fats are the devil incarnate
0:10:29 Seriously, you know consumable poison. No ifs ands or buts is sugar poison
0:10:32 sugar is
0:10:34 like alcohol
0:10:36 So is alcohol poison?
0:10:40 Depends on the dose
0:10:43 Right the dose determines the poison
0:10:52 Paracelsus 1537 we have an innate capacity to metabolize alcohol and if we stay below that
0:10:57 Doesn’t do too much damage if we go above it different story
0:11:06 Same thing with sugar same thing with this molecule the sweet molecule fructose and the reason is because fructose and alcohol are metabolized
0:11:10 Virtually identically. What’s the difference between sugar and fructose? So
0:11:18 Sugar dietary sugar the sweet stuff the crystals the stuff you put in your coffee the stuff I’ve got over here
0:11:20 Yeah, like that stuff
0:11:24 Yeah, that stuff the time the five pound bag right there
0:11:32 That’s called sucrose. Okay. This is sucrose. This is sucrose now sucrose is two molecules bound together
0:11:35 one molecule called glucose
0:11:42 One molecule called fructose they are not the same now the food industry will tell you they are the same they are not the same
0:11:50 The reason they tell you they are the same is because that’s the way they assuage their own culpability for what they’ve done to the food
0:11:52 But they are not the same
0:11:59 They will say a sugar is a sugar a calories a calorie a glucose and fructose both have four calories per gram
0:12:02 Why should you care? Oh you care a lot?
0:12:10 You care a whole lot now glucose is the energy of life every cell on the planet burns glucose for energy
0:12:13 Glucose is so important that if you don’t consume it your body makes it
0:12:21 Okay, the Inuit had no carbohydrate. They had ice. They had whale blubber
0:12:26 They still have serum glucose level Inuits are the people that live in the north poles and stuff. That’s right. Yeah
0:12:28 They’d be formerly known as Eskimos
0:12:33 But they they didn’t have any carbohydrate they ran off fat
0:12:39 But they still had a serum glucose level because your brain runs on glucose
0:12:46 They can also run on ketones too, but you know your brain runs on glucose my brain runs on glucose and
0:12:50 You need glucose because certain
0:12:53 Hormones and certain proteins in the body
0:12:56 require glycosylation
0:13:05 in order to be effective an example LH and FSH when you don’t have glycosylation of LH and FSH the
0:13:07 Hormones that tell your testicle and your ovary to work
0:13:10 You are infertile
0:13:15 It’s that simple so survival of the species says you need some glucose
0:13:21 But if you’re not consuming it you’ll still get it because your body will make it right will make it out of amino acids
0:13:23 It will make it out of fat
0:13:26 Gluconeogenesis, it’s called
0:13:29 So glucose is essential. It’s just not essential to eat
0:13:36 Fructose on the other hand the sweet molecule in that bag which is sort of one of the two parts of the
0:13:42 The grain of sugar that I see one one part of it is fructose. That’s right. It’s the other half
0:13:48 That’s the the evil twin if you will one of the two halves again glucose. Yeah fructose cool found together
0:13:51 I need glucose to live my body will figure that out fructose
0:13:55 Do I need this you not only do not need it?
0:13:59 But in high dose it’s toxic
0:14:05 Now your liver has the innate ability to metabolize a
0:14:12 small amount on the order of about six to nine teaspoons per day of
0:14:17 Dietary sugar so half of that being fructose so about 12 grams
0:14:25 Your liver can manage about 12 grams of fructose a day in the same way you can met manage about 12 grams of alcohol per day
0:14:28 without showing any signs of any
0:14:33 Metabolic derangement, but if you go above that
0:14:36 Now you get problems and we above that. Oh
0:14:39 We are so above that
0:14:46 We are at 50 grams of fructose per day a hundred grams of sugar per day
0:14:52 We’re supposed to be at 25. We are at 100. We are quadruple our limit
0:14:57 And and also just because grams are quite hard to wrap the head around right, okay
0:15:01 So if I was to get a tablespoon what do teaspoons a teaspoon two spoons
0:15:05 How many teaspoons of sugar would I have to consume to get to that level of fructose?
0:15:09 Because I say this in part because most of us don’t realize that we’re consuming sugar
0:15:15 That’s right because it’s hidden in all of the food. That’s exactly right. We don’t even know
0:15:21 We say oh, I never even add sugar to my coffee. Therefore. My sugar consumption is zero wrong
0:15:24 That is not true
0:15:29 Okay, because it is hidden in plain sight in virtually every
0:15:38 Processed food in the entire grocery store seventy three percent of all of the items in the American grocery store and in the British
0:15:43 Grocery store are spiked with added sugar by the food industry for its purposes
0:15:49 Not for yours because they know when they add it you buy more and how much does that look like in teaspoons then?
0:15:54 The upper limit is about six teaspoons of added sugar per day
0:16:00 The allowance the allowance the reckon the the upper limit. Okay, the recommended allowance is lower than that
0:16:04 Yeah, okay, but the upper limit is about six teaspoons of added sugar per day
0:16:09 So in alcohol terms that’d be like one drink
0:16:15 So if you’d have a drink a day, you’re staying below your threshold and all is fine
0:16:17 What if you have two drinks per day?
0:16:20 Now it depends on how well your liver works
0:16:27 Maybe how much exercise you have how much total body mass you have etc. What about if you have three drinks a day?
0:16:36 You’re gonna get pretty tipsy. Maybe you shouldn’t be driving a car, right? What if you have four drinks per day, you know, they might have to you know
0:16:42 Scrape you off the floor of the bar with a spatula. And what if you have five drinks per day?
0:16:44 You’re a friggin alcoholic is what you are
0:16:50 All right, the point is the dose determines the poison. Well, the same is true with sugar
0:16:54 So we have an innate capacity to metabolize
0:17:02 About 12 grams of fructose per day. By the way, that’s for adults for children. It’s one third of that
0:17:05 four grams of fructose per day
0:17:09 Okay, four to six
0:17:11 So we’re talking very little
0:17:17 Talking very little, but when you think about for instance kid in America
0:17:26 What, you know, 29% of kids in America consume the national school breakfast program breakfast in school
0:17:32 Okay, 29% so what is the national school breakfast program breakfast?
0:17:35 It’s a bowl of fruit loops and a glass of orange juice
0:17:38 That is 41 grams of sugar
0:17:46 The upper limit for children in terms of their metabolism is 12 grams per day
0:17:52 They got 41 grams and it’s just breakfast
0:17:56 What do you think that’s going to do
0:18:01 Now if a calorie were a calorie and if glucose and fructose were the same
0:18:04 Then you say well you get you got to get your calorie somewhere
0:18:09 But because fructose is not glucose because fructose is more like alcohol
0:18:14 Because fructose is toxicity has nothing to do with its calories
0:18:19 that is a huge overdose and it has
0:18:26 Metabolic complications that systemic health complications. It has a mental health complications and
0:18:28 Ultimately it has societal
0:18:34 Complications you think it has neurological consequences without question. It’s the it’s the primary driver of ADD
0:18:40 It’s not the only driver, but it’s one of them. How do we know the primary driver depression because we have the data
0:18:48 It relates to ADD and ADHD and all those kinds of things. How do we know? We have functional MRI. We have performance
0:18:51 Data showing that when you take the sugar out
0:18:54 People kids scores get better
0:19:00 Okay, we did this ourselves at UCSF. We did a study where we took 43 children
0:19:06 With obesity and metabolic syndrome all high-sugar consumers all low socioeconomic status
0:19:09 children
0:19:11 Latino and African-American
0:19:16 All high-sugar consumers and what we do is we figured out what they were eating on their home diet
0:19:20 We studied them on their home diet and then for the next nine days
0:19:23 We catered their meals
0:19:27 No added sugar. We took the added sugar from 28
0:19:32 Teas or 28 teaspoons of added sugar per day down to 10
0:19:41 Okay, so huge reduction. We gave them fruit. That was the only place. They had sugar in their diet
0:19:43 otherwise
0:19:48 We cut the sugar out now if you do that you’re gonna lose 350 to 400 calories per day out of your diet
0:19:55 All right, so the goal was to keep their weight stable because if they lost weight the critics would say well
0:20:01 Of course, they got better. They lost weight. So we needed to maintain their weight. So we had to put something back in
0:20:05 That was equicoloric. We gave them extra starch
0:20:11 So in the vernacular we took the pastries out. We put the bagels in we took the sweetened yogurt out
0:20:17 We put the baked potato chips in we took the chicken teriyaki out. We put the turkey hot dogs in so we didn’t give them good food
0:20:23 We gave them crappy food. We gave them safe way food, you know, just CPG, you know
0:20:30 Consumer packaged goods food, you know, okay, so you didn’t give them vegetables. No, we didn’t give them any vegetables
0:20:35 Okay, but it was no added sugar food. Okay, and it wasn’t funky food. It was just food. We bought it safe way
0:20:39 But it was chosen to not be
0:20:41 sugar containing
0:20:46 Okay, and we gave them a scale and every day we’d call them up on the phone
0:20:51 What’s your way and if they were losing weight eat more in order to maintain their weight for the whole
0:20:54 10 days of the study and then we studied them on day 10
0:20:58 Every aspect of their metabolic health improved
0:21:04 Blood pressure went down blood glucose went down insulin went down their pancreas has started working right again
0:21:07 They had a serum lactate level. You’re not supposed to have a lactate level
0:21:14 That means your mitochondria are dysfunctional if you have a lactate level. Okay, they’re lactate cleared everything got better
0:21:16 most importantly
0:21:18 for the first five days of
0:21:21 That 10-day window
0:21:30 The kids were obnoxious. The parents would complain to us. My kid is a disaster
0:21:33 and the reason was because of
0:21:36 withdrawal
0:21:42 It was a drawing off sugar that’s withdrawing off rectus and then like
0:21:46 you know Moses the sky cleared and
0:21:49 the kids
0:21:57 Started concentrating better. They started doing better in school the parents noticed they were less irritable the teachers noticed they weren’t
0:22:04 Neusances or trouble in the school anymore the kids noticed they said it’s the first time my head hasn’t been in the clouds
0:22:14 Five days five days and in ten days we could see all of the metabolic benefits
0:22:19 Even though they maintain their weight even though they maintain their calories
0:22:22 Sounds like a bit of a scandal
0:22:26 When I hear that these kids are getting 30 almost 30% of kids are getting
0:22:31 You know almost you know through three to four times. They’re recommended daily
0:22:35 Allowance of sugar
0:22:43 From school and that it’s having these sort of really adverse consequences on us and the studies are there to prove that the consequences are very real
0:22:47 It sounds like a scandal in the sense that nobody’s doing something about here
0:22:54 Ah, well, yes, that way it is the point is that the food industry is very powerful and they have you know
0:22:59 swept virtually every aspect of this under the rug for
0:23:02 40 to 50 years
0:23:05 They knew back in the 1960s
0:23:08 That sugar was a problem, but they paid off
0:23:16 Scientists to say it wasn’t and we actually have the documents from the food industry
0:23:21 They live at the UCSF food industry documents library and we are doing research on
0:23:30 Corporate interference in health. What do these documents show? They show that in 1965
0:23:39 The sugar industry came to to Harvard School of Public Health scientists the head of the Department of Nutrition Fred Stair
0:23:43 and his associate Mark Hedgstedt who became the head of the USDA
0:23:46 five years later and paid them
0:23:50 $50,000 in today’s money
0:23:58 To produce two articles for the New England Journal saying saturated fat was the bad guy and the sugar was exonerated
0:24:03 And they did it and they did it
0:24:07 That’s just one thing they did
0:24:09 They also
0:24:16 Infiltrated the National Institute of Dental Research and ID are their study sections and their
0:24:19 executive committee to
0:24:21 Take money away
0:24:28 from nutrition research for dental health and put it toward a carries vaccine
0:24:33 What a dental carries cavities vaccine?
0:24:36 Okay, how’s that cavities vaccine working for you?
0:24:44 Okay, we have all of the data in their own words to demonstrate that they knew
0:24:47 Exactly what they were doing. This is not
0:24:54 hallucination this this is hardcore fact and we’ve published this and we now have a
0:25:03 Center at UCSF devoted to understanding the corporate determinants of health
0:25:09 And when we look across society at the consequences of this sort of corporate interference
0:25:13 Some of the crazy stats in your book fat chance that I really sort of
0:25:17 Highlighted where that by 2050 obesity will become the norm not the exception
0:25:23 Correct what the World Health Organization said that the percentage of obese people globally has doubled in the last
0:25:29 28 years and in the UK 28 percent of adults are obese and 36 percent of them are
0:25:34 Overweight that’s not from your book, but that’s from some research we did on the UK numbers as well
0:25:37 Well, you know, the UK is the fat man of Europe. Yes, that’s true
0:25:43 Having metabolic syndrome is equal to losing 15 to 20 years of life. That was in your book. That’s correct
0:25:45 which is
0:25:51 startling and worldwide sugar consumption has tripled in just the last 50 years correct
0:25:58 Altru now you could say that’s correlation not causation, but we actually have the causation
0:26:00 we have the data we have it in
0:26:03 mechanistic terms we have it in
0:26:06 clinical interventional
0:26:09 Efforts we have it in societal efforts
0:26:18 There’s a method for determining proof that doesn’t need randomized control trials. It’s called econometric analysis
0:26:24 This is what we have for for instance climate change. There’s no control group for climate change, but we still know it’s true
0:26:28 This is what we have for tobacco and lung cancer
0:26:34 You know, you don’t have naive people start smoking that would be illegal immoral get you thrown in jail
0:26:40 But we still know that tobacco causes lung cancer. We know that football trauma causes chronic traumatic encephalopathy
0:26:46 Okay, none of these have control groups, but we know it’s true through econometric analysis
0:26:51 This is a method of using natural history data over time
0:26:54 to be able to determine
0:26:57 approximate cause and we have that for sugar and
0:27:04 Diabetes and we have it for sugar and heart disease and we have it for sugar and fatty liver disease and of course
0:27:06 We have it for sugar and tooth decay
0:27:10 We’re working on sugar and cancer and sugar and dementia
0:27:14 We’re not there yet in your book fact fat chance
0:27:20 on a hunt on page 120 there was something particularly curious because I think this is a
0:27:24 Yeah, here we go. It says
0:27:31 The bottom line is sugar consumption is a problem 33 percent of sugar consumption comes from beverages. Yes, and
0:27:38 The biggest abuses are the poor and underserved indeed. So let’s talk about beverages to start with then
0:27:42 Diet beverages
0:27:48 Are they fine and how bad are the sort of fizzy pot beverages that most of us consume every day?
0:27:51 so
0:27:53 Let’s do the
0:27:58 Sugared soft drinks first. Okay. Okay. They are really bad
0:28:06 If you consume one sugar beverage per day your risk for diabetes goes up by 29 percent
0:28:09 Wow, okay
0:28:14 That’s and diabetes and that and that’s if you have one if you have two
0:28:16 58% and
0:28:20 Diabetes is now the main cause of death and 40% of death certificates. Exactly right
0:28:28 So this is a big problem. So, you know, that’s demonstrating its toxicity at, you know, shall we say medium dose?
0:28:31 You know at low dose you can handle it
0:28:36 But you know as soon as you go above that dose, it’s a problem and we have the data for it
0:28:40 Okay, and all of these are factored in these are all econometric analyses
0:28:48 We’ve shown that sugar is a proximate cause of diabetes whenever sugar availability changes in any country diabetes
0:28:50 Prevalence changes three years later
0:28:59 And we’ve also done what’s known as advanced Markov modeling where we go into the future and show that when sugar consumption goes down in any
0:29:05 Country diabetes levels change and neg, you know reduce three years later
0:29:11 So it’s a three-year window between the change in the diet and the change in the metabolic health consequences
0:29:18 We have those data and the fact that they work both on the way up and on the way down is like, you know
0:29:20 Take it to the bank. Mm-hmm
0:29:27 Now that’s for the sugar beverages. You asked me about diet beverages. I’ve got one here
0:29:30 Let’s let’s look at it
0:29:37 All right, I’ve covered up the logos because I’ve never seen this before I wonder what that is
0:29:44 The the data now show I mean for it
0:29:51 It took a while for these data to come in but the data now show that the toxicity of one sugared soda
0:29:54 Equals the toxicity of two
0:29:55 diet
0:29:57 sodas
0:29:59 Half as bad. Okay. Half as bad does not mean good
0:30:07 Half as bad means half as bad when it says zero sugar here. So how can it be well? So because it’s bad for a different reason
0:30:10 So the yes zero fructose
0:30:13 zero calories I agree
0:30:20 But that doesn’t make it good makes it better than the sugared alternative, but it doesn’t make it good
0:30:23 Why?
0:30:27 Number one you put something sweet on the tongue message goes tongue-to-brain
0:30:33 Sugars coming message goes brain-to-pancreas sugars coming release the insulin
0:30:40 So I still get an insulin release still get an insulin response and the more other food you ate the bigger the insulin response
0:30:47 So you will have an accentuated insulin response because you’re exposed to the diet sweetener
0:30:49 This is work from Yanina Papino
0:30:58 2013 at Washu st. Louis and it’s been corroborated multiple times since and why does that harm me having an insulin response?
0:31:05 Because insulin is a bad guy. So we always talk about glucose being a bad guy in terms of diabetes and it is of course
0:31:08 But insulin is a bad guy too
0:31:15 Glucose causes small vessels to be dysfunctional causes endothelial cell dysfunction
0:31:24 it causes high blood pressure because it causes those small vessels to constrict it interferes with nitric oxide
0:31:31 Which is one of the things that relaxes the blood vessel and it will you know, basically reduce
0:31:38 Blood flow to specific organs. So high glucose is not good for you and it’s bad for small vessel disease
0:31:42 And that’s why diabetics get retinopathy nephropathy neuropathy
0:31:46 kidney disease nerve nerve nerve but damage and
0:31:49 eye disease
0:31:55 But insulin is also a problem because what insulin does is it causes cell growth
0:32:01 Insulin is a growth factor and it causes vascular smooth muscle growth like in your coronary arteries
0:32:08 And it causes glandular growth. So it is one of the primary drivers of heart disease and cancer
0:32:10 So
0:32:18 You can be a diabetic a type 2 diabetic and have your hemoglobin a1c measure of your glucose
0:32:24 Control down near normal near normal range
0:32:26 because you’re on
0:32:33 Insulin or oral hypoglycemic or even glp1 analogs for that matter. Okay, and you will die
0:32:39 Just the same because you will die of a heart attack or of a of a cancer
0:32:44 Because diabetics have a much higher incidence of cancer
0:32:46 They also have a higher incidence of dementia as well
0:32:51 And the reason is because of insulin because insulin is a bad guy in this story
0:32:53 glucose causes
0:32:58 Vascular disease the insulin causes macro vascular disease
0:33:03 They’re both bad. You need to control both of them and this
0:33:07 Controls the glucose. It doesn’t control the insulin
0:33:11 Do you drink that stuff, of course not
0:33:18 Just checking. Is there any other physiological consequences to diet sodas?
0:33:22 outside of the insulin response so the other thing that we’ve learned about
0:33:27 Non-nutritive sweeteners across the board is that they alter the microbiome
0:33:31 Now the microbiome is the bacteria that live in your gut
0:33:34 Now you have to feed your microbiome
0:33:39 You have to feed your bacteria because if you don’t feed your bacteria your bacteria will feed on you
0:33:47 It will strip the mucin layer a protective physical barrier right off the surface of your intestinal epithelial cells
0:33:55 And when it does that it denudes them and allows for back other bacteria toxic bacteria to take up residence and cause
0:34:00 irritable bowel syndrome inflammatory bowel disease and the
0:34:04 Junctions between the cells become dysfunctional as well
0:34:12 And so they cells become permeable and so stuff, you know in your intestine the junk in your intestine the you know
0:34:14 SH you know what?
0:34:20 Can actually make it through into the bloodstream you can measure the endotoxins and the whole
0:34:28 Bacteria the lipopolysaccharides in the bloodstream when the intestine is damaged even from diet soda and
0:34:35 What that does is that ultimately leads to systemic inflammation and that systemic inflammation?
0:34:41 Also leads to metabolic disease mental health problems cognitive decline early death
0:34:47 Is there a relationship between sugar and our hormone levels of course?
0:34:51 I mean the main one of course is diabetes. I mean, you know insulin, but
0:34:55 High sugar, you know, I mean if you if you have
0:35:03 High sugar consumption, it’s going to cause changes in insulin response at the level of the liver
0:35:07 It’s gonna cause fatty liver disease. Okay, it can change your kidneys
0:35:14 Function, you know, which can ultimately increase blood pressure. So it’s yeah, it’s got multiple
0:35:20 Potential detrimental effects. What impact does sugar have on our liver? What’s going on there?
0:35:26 So as I mentioned, we have an innate capacity to metabolize a limited amount. Yeah
0:35:31 Everyone says oh sugars energy
0:35:34 Well
0:35:37 Yeah, but not really not really
0:35:39 So what let’s dissect that
0:35:44 The food industry says glucose is four calories per gram
0:35:51 The food industry says fructose is four calories per gram. Therefore, they’re equal because they’re four calories per gram
0:35:53 And if calories were the issue
0:35:57 Then they would be right, but calories are not the issue
0:36:00 Okay, the whole
0:36:04 Issue of calories has to go down the tubes. Okay, as far as I’m concerned
0:36:11 That’s the problem and I am here to hashtag kill the calorie as a unit of measure
0:36:14 It has no place in our
0:36:19 In in our dialogue, it has no place in medicine calories suck
0:36:22 Now, why do I say that?
0:36:26 If you take a
0:36:31 Mole of glucose and you throw it into a bomb calorimeter you will get four calories per gram
0:36:37 That’s true. If you take fructose and you throw it in a bomb calorimeter, you will get four calories per gram. That’s true
0:36:40 We are not bomb calorimeters
0:36:42 Okay
0:36:47 What’s a one kind of remember? It’s a contraption that explodes
0:36:51 the whatever you put in it and measures the heat that’s
0:36:55 Given off from it. So it measures it the amount of calories in something effectively
0:37:02 Yeah, using some explanation. That’s what calories are is the amount of heat required to raise one gram of water one degree centigrade
0:37:06 Okay, so it’s a measure of heat. Yeah, that’s what it is. That’s what calories are
0:37:13 Now we do our burning in these little organelles inside each of ourselves called mitochondria
0:37:21 This is all about mitochondria and when your mitochondria work efficiently and well you can burn energy
0:37:30 you know to completion and you can capture that energy in the form of chemical energy in your cell called ATP a
0:37:39 Denizine triphosphate and that’s what your cell uses to power all of the functions that the cell needs the little molecular motors and
0:37:46 Making stuff and you know basically, you know and and also cleaning house, you know and recycling junk
0:37:50 Okay, in order to keep your cells thrive thriving and alive
0:37:54 Okay, so mitochondria are essential now
0:37:57 glucose
0:38:02 stimulates mitochondria to work better glucose is actually
0:38:04 good
0:38:11 It it stimulates two enzymes necessary for mitochondria to work. It stimulates an enzyme called AMP kinase
0:38:16 Which is a the enzyme that actually makes more mitochondria and
0:38:22 It’s the fuel gauge on the liver cell so it tells the liver make more and
0:38:30 It also stimulates an enzyme called HADH hydroxyacyl coad hydrogenase which is necessary to cleave two carbon fragments and
0:38:38 Burn them oxidize them for energy too. So glucose we can call good because it helps mitochondria
0:38:43 Fructose on the other hand this sweet molecule in sugar in sucrose
0:38:47 It inhibits three enzymes
0:38:55 In the mitochondria it inhibits that amp kinase it inhibits an enzyme called a cad l acyl coad hydrogenase long chain
0:39:01 It inhibits CP t1 carnitine palmitol transferase 1 that’s the enzyme that
0:39:07 Regenerates carnitine, which is the shuttle by which fatty acids can get into the mitochondria to be burned
0:39:13 So the net effect of fructose is to inhibit mitochondrial function
0:39:15 so
0:39:17 Does fructose?
0:39:26 Constitute energy if fructose is actually keeping you from making chemical energy in your cell
0:39:31 This is the conundrum
0:39:36 What do you mean by energy if we’re talking heat?
0:39:45 Then fructose is energy if you’re talking atp fructose inhibits atp, and that’s what we’re talking about
0:39:49 Because that’s what leads to systemic health problems not the heat
0:39:57 So all of these people as far as I’m concerned anyone who ever uses the word calorie fire them
0:40:01 Because they don’t get it
0:40:07 They are part of the problem not part of the solution
0:40:12 Many people will say that sort of counting calories has helped them with their
0:40:15 Weight loss goals you tell me
0:40:22 Virtually everybody who counts calories loses a little bit of weight, and then they plateau and
0:40:24 then they get
0:40:28 You know tired of their diet and the weight comes rushing back
0:40:34 Okay, 90% of people who try to diet through caloric restriction
0:40:42 Regain and sometimes yo-yo back even higher. So I don’t accept that other studies that support this idea that sort of
0:40:50 The the yo-yo dieting is a by-productive kind of horrific restriction not because of caloric caloric restriction
0:40:55 It’s a problem of insulin resistance. It’s a problem of when you gain the weight back
0:40:58 Did you gain it in the liver?
0:41:06 It’s liver fat because now you’ve got higher insulin and insulin blocks this hormone that goes to the brain called leptin that is
0:41:08 In charge of that set point
0:41:16 so the higher your insulin goes the less well your brain can see leptin and so the less well you can regulate and so that’s what
0:41:21 Drives your weight up even higher. So you don’t
0:41:26 Regain the weight by eating, you know fish and vegetables
0:41:32 You regain the weight because you you know went for the bread and the rice and the pasta and the potatoes and the sugar
0:41:35 What’s a better plan than if I’m trying to cut a couple of pounds
0:41:43 What’s a better approach to take versus sort of calorie counting or these kind of things get the insulin
0:41:49 Down there is no weight gain without insulin insulin is the energy storage hormone
0:41:52 20 years ago
0:41:55 From doing the research on kids with
0:42:01 Hypothalamic tumors who released enormous amounts of insulin we gave them a drug that suppressed insulin release
0:42:06 They lost weight and they started exercising spontaneously because we got their insulin down
0:42:12 We showed that the lower we got the insulin the more weight they lost and the better
0:42:15 They felt insulin is the bad guy in this story
0:42:18 So numerous
0:42:26 Investigators, you know the world over have now demonstrated that insulin is a primary driver of both obesity and
0:42:28 Diabetes and metabolic syndrome
0:42:34 You got to get the insulin down. Okay. How do you get insulin down?
0:42:38 That’s why don’t let it go up. What makes it go up?
0:42:43 Refine carbohydrate and sugar all the stuff you have over there in that corner
0:42:45 Just to be clear
0:42:51 He’s not pointing at my lunch. No, we have a pile of different sugar products that we brought for the interview over in the corn corner
0:42:57 including various things that you find on a shelf everything from apple juice to some popular snacks to
0:43:01 Some like some some other things that just forget the peanut butter cups
0:43:09 And even this this is just sort of should it looks like water, but it’s flavored water where they’ve added sugar to it, right?
0:43:14 So yeah, all of that stuff over there all of that stuff so get the insulin down
0:43:17 All right, so cut the refined carbohydrate
0:43:23 Cut the sugar the dietary sugar that is the single best way to
0:43:25 mitigate
0:43:26 this
0:43:28 process by
0:43:34 Improving insulin resistance by getting the insulin down and we have done this time and time again
0:43:42 Basically, I turned my obesity clinic into an insulin reduction clinic for this reason a lot of people are sort of a prefrontal cortex
0:43:47 Logical level understand this they understand that they shouldn’t be having sugar, but it’s well
0:43:49 They think it’s about calories
0:43:55 They are some people who think it’s about calories for sure, but even the ones that know that sugar is not something they should be having
0:43:59 Still struggle they do it’s because sugar is addictive
0:44:03 Right. Yeah, they struggle because sugar is addictive
0:44:07 We know because fructose stimulates that nucleus accumbens. Yeah, but when we get stressed
0:44:11 When we get stressed, which is a facet of daily life now
0:44:11 That’s right
0:44:18 We’re much more likely to grab a sugary snack indeed and there’s a reason for that too because when you’re stressed that actually puts a
0:44:20 greater
0:44:25 Burden on your amygdala and your amygdala requires more energy hippocampus too by the way
0:44:29 Amygdala is the emotional center of the brain the fear center of the brain, okay?
0:44:38 and so you’re trying to calm it and so you have to increase the energy available so because you need more ATP and
0:44:42 Even though fructose inhibits ATP generation
0:44:49 You still reach for that because you’re trying to mitigate the metabolic consequences acutely
0:44:54 When I’m tired, I think I have a high propensity to grabbing sugar as well indeed
0:44:56 Why is that?
0:45:04 Because you’re tired you’re stressed and your amygdala is dysfunctional and so it basically tells you hell with it
0:45:07 I don’t have any sugar cravings in the morning. I’ve come to come to learn
0:45:09 I don’t feel the need for sugar in the morning
0:45:13 It’s sometimes when we get later into the evening right after a long day, exactly
0:45:20 It’s when my my cravings you and everyone else and me too by the way, it’s not like I’m immune to this I I
0:45:23 You know I’m on record. I
0:45:30 Gained a lot of weight while I was a faculty member at UCSF and every
0:45:34 Day at 4 p.m. I just ran out of gas
0:45:39 And so I ran across the street to get a you know large chocolate chip cookie
0:45:45 Okay, and that was without question the primary driver of my weight gain
0:45:49 Okay, it wasn’t until I actually started doing the research on this and
0:45:52 Seeing that the kids
0:45:57 Felt better when we took the sugar out of their diet that I actually put two and two together for myself
0:46:03 so now I don’t do that and my energy level stays constant throughout the day
0:46:07 What so what advice do we give that is simple and actionable for?
0:46:14 Jennifer or Judith or Dave who’s listening to this now. They are you know 40 years old potentially
0:46:18 They have a nine to five job. They’re very busy. Maybe they have some kids to feed at the same time
0:46:21 They they don’t have time to be like, you know
0:46:27 Looking at doing a fine sort of tooth comb over every single thing that they’re putting into their body
0:46:31 They’re not a scientist agreed. It’s a it’s a problem
0:46:35 Because the food industry has made the grocery store a minefield
0:46:41 And it’s really easy to set off an explosion if you walk in
0:46:44 You’ve basically lost. That’s how bad it is
0:46:48 Understood so the the simple rule is
0:46:52 Eat real food
0:46:54 So what’s real food? Well?
0:47:00 Food that came out of the ground or animals that ate food that came out of the ground the problem is we all lead busy lives
0:47:08 And we’re looking for labor-saving devices because people don’t even have time to cook most people at 33% of Americans
0:47:12 Don’t even know how to cook anymore. So like what are they going to do?
0:47:15 So we understand this. I mean, it’s a problem agreed
0:47:18 We need food
0:47:20 That is
0:47:29 Metabolically healthy for us not metabolically detrimental and the problem is that as soon as you put added sugar in the food
0:47:33 You have made it metabolically detrimental now the food industry will say well
0:47:37 There are all these other good things in there like vitamins and minerals we fortify it etc
0:47:41 So I’m here to tell you toxin a plus antidote B
0:47:44 Still equals death
0:47:53 Okay, just because they put some vitamins in there or you take a dietary supplement if it’s not solving your mitochondrial dysfunction
0:47:56 What’s the point?
0:48:00 So you can’t believe what the food industry is telling you
0:48:09 Okay, if they say something is healthy, it’s usually the opposite whatever it says on the package believe the opposite
0:48:11 because they have an incentive to put
0:48:16 Wrong stuff on the package and I’ll be honest with you
0:48:18 I’m part of you know
0:48:22 numerous lawsuits suing the food industry for deceptive advertising
0:48:31 Misbranding mislabeling 70% of all the items in the American grocery store are misbranded or mislabeled in what way?
0:48:38 They say things that are not true. Give me some examples. Well, first of all any to think time they use the word healthy
0:48:42 Okay, they say no added sugar
0:48:50 Okay, but in fact they put in apple puree or raspberry puree or evaporated cane juice
0:48:57 You know, they there are two hundred and sixty two names for sugar and the food industry uses all of them
0:49:03 And so they will say that something’s no added sugar, but that in fact is actually not the case
0:49:09 Okay, there’s there’s a whole in a whole host of this Kellogg’s has been sued for raisin bran
0:49:17 Okay, everyone thinks raisin bran. Well, it’s just raisins and bran. What color are the raisins in raisin bran?
0:49:30 I’ve never seen it. Well, I mean raisins are purple. Yeah, you know purple brown. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, normally well the raisins and raisin bran are white
0:49:34 Why
0:49:39 If you take the raisins and raisin bran
0:49:44 That’s supposed to be 11 grams of sugar, but on the side of the package
0:49:47 It says that one serving is 18 grams of sugar
0:49:49 Where’d the other seven come from?
0:49:53 It’s the white
0:49:57 Because they’ve all been dipped in a sugar solution to make them a sweeter
0:50:01 As an example
0:50:07 Okay, so post has been sued general Mills and there’s there’s was a dismissed
0:50:11 Mondalee is a whole host of
0:50:17 Companies are actually under the gun now to change their practices. Why’d you cast so much I?
0:50:21 I’m a pediatrician
0:50:24 My job is to take care of children
0:50:27 Children are vulnerable
0:50:32 In the same way minorities are vulnerable in same way prisoners are vulnerable
0:50:34 Okay, they need a voice
0:50:37 My job is to give every kid a shot
0:50:39 Well, we now have
0:50:42 No natal obesity
0:50:46 We have babies being born
0:50:49 Israel South Africa
0:50:55 Russia United States four separate studies showing that over the past 25 years
0:50:59 Birth weight has gone up 200 grams half a pound
0:51:06 In all four countries and when you do dexa scanning to look at body composition on those newborns
0:51:09 Those 200 grams are all fat
0:51:11 We have a neonatal obesity
0:51:19 These kids did not get obese by dieting and exercising by gluttony and sloth. They came out of the womb
0:51:23 Behind the eight ball
0:51:25 It’s my job as a pediatrician
0:51:28 To fix the problem
0:51:29 That’s what I care
0:51:37 Can you just give me a little bit of brief overview of everything you’re talking about the studies you’ve referenced all of that? What is the?
0:51:40 academic
0:51:46 Experience background research that you’ve done that’s built all of the foundations of your knowledge
0:51:50 I spent the first 20 years of my medical practice
0:51:53 you know in academia basically
0:51:58 You know doing what they told me to do, you know the way I learned it and
0:52:03 I thought calories were the same and I thought that you know
0:52:06 It didn’t matter and this is not what you do and this is not how you take care of patients
0:52:11 You you know do prescriptions and you press do procedures and that’s how you do it
0:52:18 And then I started doing research because I was at St. Jude Children’s Research Hospital taking care of these massively obese kids
0:52:20 Who had brain tumors?
0:52:25 That were treated by surgery or radiation and
0:52:34 They became massively obese because of it because their hypothalamus was damaged because they couldn’t see that leptin signal that we talked about earlier
0:52:40 Which is the hunger which it is part of it’s not the only hunger is Greenland related. It’s more of an energy sufficiency signal
0:52:43 Okay, right. It’s the energy sufficiency signal
0:52:45 anyway
0:52:51 When we suppressed their insulin release with that drug I mentioned before they lost weight and they started exercising
0:52:56 spontaneously so we did that with adults and guess what same thing happened and
0:53:02 We measured their energy expenditure and instead of it going down as you’d expect when you lose weight
0:53:06 Normally your energy expenditure goes down their expenditure energy expenditure went up
0:53:10 So what this told me was that?
0:53:15 Insulin is blocking leptin and as long as your leptin is being blocked
0:53:20 You feel like crap and you’re hungry
0:53:25 And you don’t want to get off the couch and as soon as your insulin goes down now your brain can see the leptin and
0:53:33 You’re not hungry, and you can start exercising what this showed me was that the behaviors that we associate with obesity
0:53:41 The gluttony and the sloth are actually secondary to this biochemical phenomenon of insulin blocking leptin
0:53:43 and
0:53:48 So this put me on the path of understanding insulin as the problem
0:53:51 Rather than insulin as the result
0:53:56 Fix the insulin fix the problem
0:53:59 And so I’ve been doing that for the last
0:54:01 25 years
0:54:09 And that’s what brought you to the subject of sugar and because sugar increases insulin levels. Well sugar causes insulin resistance
0:54:16 Okay, so there are two phenomena in with insulin insulin release. Yeah, which is a an acute phenomenon
0:54:19 So that’s when I eat something there’ll be some insulin released
0:54:22 Which means my I have an insulin spike right and then it comes back down nicely
0:54:28 If I’m not or not or not depending on how much and how consistently I’ve been eating sugar exactly, right?
0:54:31 So if your liver
0:54:38 Has fat in it and 45% of them American adults now have fat in their liver and 25% of kids now have fat in their liver
0:54:41 And they never did before I mean before
0:54:46 1980 if you saw fat in the liver that was alcohol
0:54:52 But if 25% of kids who don’t drink alcohol have fat in their liver had the fat get there
0:54:56 Sugar because sugar gets turned into fat in the liver
0:55:00 That’s that’s the driver of this
0:55:03 what that does is that
0:55:06 Causes a phenomenon called insulin resistance your
0:55:12 Liver doesn’t work, right? So your pancreas has to make more insulin to make your liver work, right?
0:55:18 You know like you have to have to put more people on the assembly line when you know people are you know
0:55:23 Goofing off or you know not not getting their job done, right?
0:55:28 Same idea. So you have to basically goose the liver to do its job
0:55:37 Well, that raises insulin levels all over the body and once that happens now you’re taking energy from your bloodstream and putting it in fat cells for storage
0:55:40 So by getting the insulin down
0:55:45 So if it’s insulin resistance fixing the insulin resistance by getting rid of the fat in the liver
0:55:54 Or if it’s the insulin release at the beginning by lowering your refined carbohydrate because that’s the primary stimulus of that first spike
0:55:58 Either way it’s refined carbohydrate in your sugar
0:56:06 Get the insulin down and diabetes is when your pancreas can’t keep up. Okay, so it’s really so much insulin
0:56:11 It goes forget this undone, right? It’s the end result of both of these
0:56:17 Phenomena which we’ve now realized is reversible. I think there was a school of thought once upon a time that diabetes couldn’t be reversed
0:56:21 But that’s right. It is reversible. It is very reversible for a while
0:56:31 So let’s be on let’s be clear and honest about this. There is absolutely no doubt that what doctors learn in medical school is wrong
0:56:35 We are told and I know because I was told that
0:56:38 Diabetes is a chronic
0:56:41 progressive
0:56:42 relenting
0:56:44 disease
0:56:53 That never gets better and that you will need medication whether it be insulin or oral hypoglycemics or whatever for the rest of your life
0:56:56 garbage
0:56:58 Total complete trash
0:57:01 now
0:57:03 For the health
0:57:05 numerous other
0:57:12 Studies of various diets show that you can absolutely reverse type 2 diabetes
0:57:18 In order to do so you have to get the pancreas
0:57:28 To make insulin properly and the only way to do that is to get the liver to respond to insulin properly
0:57:34 One way is to not challenge the liver give the liver arrest
0:57:41 Well, it’s metabolizing all that refined carbohydrate and sugar drop the refined carbohydrate and sugar and
0:57:48 Make your liver work better little Kite. So a ketogenic diet is the extreme version of this
0:57:53 It’s not the only way, but it is a way paleo diet is another version fasting
0:58:00 Intermittent fasting will give your liver a chance to burn off the fat that’s accumulated over the last 16 hours
0:58:03 There are many ways to skin this cat
0:58:05 calorie counting
0:58:07 almost never
0:58:09 calorie restriction
0:58:11 Yes calorie restriction
0:58:18 But it’s got to be consistent and long-term and we’ve shown numerous studies have shown that as
0:58:24 You restrict calories that leptin resistance does not get better quickly
0:58:28 It takes years for that leptin resistance to finally go away
0:58:36 Like five years before you change the set point. Let’s take a step back. So what does leptin do again?
0:58:43 It’s about energy. So leptin is made in your fat cells. Yeah in response to driving energy into fat
0:58:48 The cell will make leptin the leptin will circulate in the bloodstream will go to your brain
0:58:52 Go to your hypothalamus and say hey, I’ve got enough energy on board
0:58:55 Okay to engage in
0:59:02 Expensive metabolic processes so we don’t need any more. I don’t need to eat more. I can engage in puberty
0:59:08 I can engage in pregnancy. Okay, okay, both of which are high metabolic
0:59:16 Processes, okay, okay, so it is like the servo mechanism like the thermostat on your house
0:59:20 Okay, you have a floor but no ceiling
0:59:24 So when you’re when it’s cold in your house the heat kicks in
0:59:27 But if you don’t have air conditioning
0:59:29 It can go higher, right?
0:59:32 Same idea with leptin floor. No ceiling
0:59:39 So when your leptin goes below a certain threshold your brain will see that as starvation
0:59:44 Oh, you get really hungry and so you will get both hungry and you’ll also sit on the couch. Okay. Oh
0:59:47 Okay
0:59:52 So that’s the way the activity component comes in because your brain saying listen don’t waste this energy exactly conserve
0:59:59 Okay, because we’re in trouble here, right? We’re in trouble down here. Okay, so eat more and
1:00:02 Don’t move
1:00:09 That’s the biochemistry that drives the behavior. Why don’t they have leptin injections? Well, they do not really
1:00:16 But it turns out it doesn’t work in leptin resistance because the problem is not that you’re missing leptin
1:00:22 The problem is you have too much leptin. Okay. It’s just not working. So adding more leptins like throwing kerosene on the fire
1:00:28 The receptor sites have stopped receptor sites are not there. Okay. They’ve been down-regulated or they’re being blocked
1:00:31 Okay, one or the other if insulin blocks it
1:00:33 Okay, or they can be down-regulated to both
1:00:36 now if you’re leptin deficient and
1:00:44 There are 14 patients with leptin deficiency and quite a few of them by the way are in the UK of the 14 and
1:00:50 Siddhartha Rookie and Steve O’Reilly at Attenbrook Hospital in Cambridge
1:00:56 Are the people who’ve done the most work on leptin deficiency? If you take a patient who’s leptin deficient
1:01:03 They basically start gaining weight as soon as they’re born by age six months. They’re already
1:01:06 massively obese
1:01:11 by the age of you know three they you can’t they can’t even fit through the door
1:01:16 Okay, they eat everything in sight and they don’t move
1:01:22 You give them a shot of leptin because they’re deficient you’re replacing what’s missing and
1:01:24 They slim down
1:01:26 like that
1:01:32 They’re genetically leptin deficient genetically leptin deficient. They have a mutation in their leptin gene
1:01:39 So obesity could be genetic in some very very small cases very small number of patients
1:01:45 It is genetic, but that’s not what’s going on in the rest of the population. So yes is
1:01:49 Obesity genetic for a small fraction
1:01:51 sure
1:01:52 We have
1:01:59 leptin deficiency. We have leptin receptor deficiency. We have PC1 deficiency. We have melanocortin 4 receptor deficiency
1:02:05 We have sim 1 deficiency. We there a whole host of different genes and nobody has them
1:02:08 Nobody has them. All right
1:02:14 Like 14 people have them. It’s very rare for the reason for
1:02:22 General garden variety obesity out in the world to be due to a genetic problem. This is an environmental problem
1:02:25 In your book you talk about environmental
1:02:29 Obesogens, I’ve never heard that term before. What does it mean? So?
1:02:32 Obesogens are
1:02:36 chemicals in the environment that actually drive weight gain
1:02:43 They cause the differentiation of fat cells or they cause the growth of fat cells now
1:02:46 fat cells are complex
1:02:47 Okay
1:02:51 You have a certain number, but you can increase that number
1:02:59 Especially early on in life. There’s a critical period before age two where you can actually increase the fat cell number and once a fat cell is
1:03:06 Developed it wants to stay filled. I mean we’ve got a pause here just for a second because I think most people
1:03:10 Think that when we eat food we increase the number of fat cells. We have no
1:03:16 We increase the size of the fat cells we have this was a really I learned this a couple of a couple of years ago
1:03:22 And it kind of changed the way I think about a lot of things including liposuction. Yeah, because with liposuction you kind of think
1:03:26 That you’re taking away fat cells that you’ve added to your body through diet
1:03:33 But actually the fat cells stay the same. They just grow and shrink. Well, there’s also a problem with liposuction as well
1:03:37 There are three fat depots
1:03:44 Okay, and they’re not the same on the scale. They’re the same because you weigh a certain amount
1:03:48 But from a metabolic standpoint, they are not the same
1:03:55 So let’s take each of the fat depots separately so that your audience will understand what it is that they’re actually concerned about
1:04:04 So the first fat depot is the obvious what we call subcutaneous or big but fat belly fat as well
1:04:07 No, that comes later. Oh, that’s the second one. Okay, subcutaneous
1:04:13 Subcutaneous big but fat or does this bathing suit make me look fat fat? So you saying that’s good or bad?
1:04:17 It’s actually good. I agree. It’s protective
1:04:22 The more of it the less likely that you will have
1:04:25 metabolic disease
1:04:30 It is the place where your body wants to put excess energy because it’s safe
1:04:32 now
1:04:34 Most of us have a certain
1:04:38 ability to grow that fat to a certain level
1:04:41 Before it starts becoming a problem
1:04:53 Eventually you can overload that subcutaneous that where you will actually make the fat vacuole the little pocket of fat within the fat cell
1:04:57 grow so much that it will actually cause the
1:05:06 Border of the vacuole to decompensate and now you’ve spilled the grease into the cell that will kill the cell and that will cause
1:05:12 Inflammatory cells to congregate to try to clean up the grease and then they secrete
1:05:18 Proteins called cytokines which end up causing the metabolic dysfunction in any case
1:05:24 You can overload your subcutaneous fat, but you have to work at it
1:05:27 So about how much fat?
1:05:35 does your subcutaneous fat have to grow before you become metabolically ill on average about
1:05:37 10 kilos 22 pounds
1:05:40 Some more some less
1:05:43 Okay, now let’s take the second fat depot
1:05:46 belly fat visceral fat
1:05:49 This fat here everyone’s worse type of fat
1:05:51 well
1:05:54 Yes, but not because of cosmetics
1:05:57 Because of metabolism
1:06:05 In any case the the visceral fat the belly fat is that due to calories is that due to weight gain?
1:06:08 That is actually due to cortisol. That’s due to stress
1:06:17 And the reason we know that is because you can take patients who are having Dageness clinical depression
1:06:20 Okay, they are an hedonic
1:06:29 They don’t eat because they generate no reward from life. They generate no reward from eating
1:06:36 They are losing weight. They have to be admitted to the hospital to keep them from killing themselves
1:06:41 So these are with people with suicidal ideation who have to be admitted to psychiatric hospitals
1:06:47 You put them in a scanner and it turns out they’re losing subcutaneous fat because they’re not eating
1:06:50 They’re gaining visceral fat
1:06:59 Because the cortisol from the stress that goes along with the depression is actually laying down more fat in their belly
1:07:02 Why?
1:07:06 That’s what cortisol does because when you’re stressed you need a
1:07:09 readily available and
1:07:14 Metabolically active source of energy in case you’re being chased by the lion
1:07:18 so that metabolic fat that visceral fat is
1:07:22 Eminently retrievable rapidly. Oh, okay
1:07:25 interesting, okay
1:07:26 now
1:07:33 How many pounds or kilos of visceral fat do you have to gain before you become metabolically ill?
1:07:40 I’m gonna guess it’s it’s not a lot based that’s right not a lot so subcutaneous was 10 kilograms
1:07:45 That’s right. Now we’re talking about two kilograms. Okay, so two kind of bags of sugar
1:07:48 Yeah, pretty much
1:07:53 Okay, now finally the third fat depot liver fat
1:07:56 now
1:08:00 How many kilos of liver fat can you a?
1:08:06 Crew before you become metabolically ill that live is really small. I know idea. Okay
1:08:09 One quarter of a kilo
1:08:12 half a pound
1:08:18 And when you become metabolically ill then all of the dysfunction we talked about previously happens. That’s right
1:08:21 So you can become metabolically ill and be thin
1:08:28 Because your subcutaneous fats, okay, even your visceral fats, okay, but if you’ve got liver fat
1:08:32 Can you measure a quarter of a kilo on the scale? No
1:08:36 Have you had the phrase skinny fat? That’s this is skinny fat
1:08:46 So toffee to Fi thin on the outside fat on the inside skinny fat was actually coined by dr. Jimmy Bell at University College London
1:08:48 Hey neuroimager
1:08:56 That’s exactly right. So just because your overweight doesn’t mean you’re sick and just because you are thin doesn’t mean you’re healthy
1:08:59 Because of these three fat depots
1:09:02 This is exactly what we’re talking about
1:09:07 So a skinny fat people typically more stressed if we kind of they often are often are they often are
1:09:13 The question is how did that liver fat get formed and the answer is sugar and alcohol?
1:09:16 Because that’s where sugar and alcohol go
1:09:18 In order to be processed
1:09:23 Okay, and so that’s why so many people now have fatty liver disease that never had it before
1:09:28 That’s why children have fatty liver disease even though they don’t drink alcohol because they drink
1:09:34 Something that is metabolized just like alcohol like apple juice like apple juice
1:09:37 I’ve got a bottle of apple juice here in front of me and on it
1:09:43 It says 40% in big letters 40% less sugar than 100% apple juice. It says with
1:09:53 Added vitamins a c and e they’ve added all three vitamins in there that must be so that’s not apple juice
1:09:55 That’s an apple drink
1:10:01 To be to be clear. It says apple juice beverage here on the beverage. Ah, they called it a juice beverage not juice
1:10:04 There’s a that that’s technically correct
1:10:09 But there’s a you know reason they have to declare that from the FDA why?
1:10:14 Because they can’t call it juice if it’s not juice if they’ve done something to it
1:10:18 I mean, how well I know it says apple juice beverage. I know well that and that’s part of the subterfuge
1:10:22 That’s one of the reasons for all of these lawsuits
1:10:27 They have to call it a juice beverage because they’ve done something to it
1:10:30 Okay, so I’ve got this apple in my pocket
1:10:33 This apple here, right?
1:10:37 This is healthy that is healthy, but if I blend this down it looks like this, right?
1:10:42 Well, the question is what was lost in the process of blending it down?
1:10:46 You took away the good part
1:10:49 the fiber the fiber
1:10:56 By the way, you don’t know if that apple is as healthy as it could be and the reason is because you don’t know if it was sprayed with pesticides
1:11:01 Was it an organic apple or was it just a standard commercial apple was extended commercial apple?
1:11:04 You might have to wash it first. Why?
1:11:09 Because the pesticides can be environmental obesogens many pesticides
1:11:14 Such as I mean the the famous one was DDT now. It’s been gone since
1:11:16 1972
1:11:24 Rachel Carson, you know, Silent Spring, you know, it was all about how DDT was a you know, environmentally affecting, you know, the entire world
1:11:28 Okay, we banned DDT in 1972
1:11:34 but you can measure the metabolite of DDT called DDE in pregnant woman’s urine today
1:11:39 50 years later and that level of DDE in that pregnant woman
1:11:43 Is predicting obesity in her offspring?
1:11:49 11 years later, so let’s go over these two subjects then we’ve got environmental obesogens, right?
1:11:51 I think I’ve pronounced that correctly
1:11:56 Let’s finish off on that and then I want to get on to fiber so environmental obesogens, which might be on this apple
1:11:59 What what are they and where are they so?
1:12:05 An obesogen is a chemical that causes weight gain
1:12:07 Not because of its calories
1:12:16 Okay, now you say how can something cause weight gain if it doesn’t have calories and the answer is if it causes the
1:12:18 differentiation or growth of fat cells
1:12:20 It will cause weight gain
1:12:22 unrelated to calories
1:12:28 So we have chemicals in our environment that are unescapable
1:12:31 You can’t escape air pollution
1:12:37 You can’t escape forever chemicals like for instance PFAS. What’s that?
1:12:41 polyfluoro alkylated substances Teflon
1:12:45 Remember Teflon. Yeah, yeah the material the material that
1:12:52 Nonstick pans were coated with yeah, that’s PFAS. That was perfluoro octanoic acid
1:12:57 Turns out that causes obesity by itself
1:13:01 It causes the differentiation and growth of fat cells
1:13:10 Tributal tin, this is what you paint on the bottoms of boats to keep barnacles from attaching to the hull
1:13:15 It’s in all of our food supply and all of our water supply all over the world
1:13:20 That causes fat cells to grow before you’re born
1:13:23 Exposures to all sorts of things
1:13:26 BPA bisphenol a
1:13:31 Okay, when you get your receipt your paper receipt from target, that’s bisphenol a
1:13:38 Phthalates or plasticizers you stick a binky in a baby’s mouth a pacifier
1:13:43 That’s a plasticizer. That’s got phthalates in it. That causes obesity
1:13:52 Parabens in cosmetics will cause obesity vinyl flooring
1:13:58 Flame retardants in children’s clothing and in mattresses
1:14:06 All of these things will drive different receptors in the body and act as what we call endocrine disruptors and
1:14:10 those endocrine disruptors will change the
1:14:15 Differentiation and the growth of fat cells to increase adiposity
1:14:18 So what’s an endocrine disruptor?
1:14:23 So our cells have receptors that way
1:14:30 Communication from one area of the body to another can occur like hormones bind to receptors. Well
1:14:36 Sometimes they’re not hormones. Sometimes there are other chemicals that cause differentiation of different
1:14:44 Areas of the body to form different organs, for instance, this is one of the things that goes wrong in congenital
1:14:48 defects like congenital heart disease. Okay receptor alterations
1:14:55 So we have receptors on all of ourselves for different processes for different chemicals
1:15:00 There are things our environment that basically mimic
1:15:05 Endogenous signals to our body and basically tell
1:15:10 Different tissues to do different things than they ought to be doing
1:15:16 Because those things are present and one of them is obesity and my head. I think of it like a
1:15:22 Remember those toys used to play with when you’re a kid and it shows like a triangle shape and a circle shape and a square shape
1:15:26 And you’ve got to pick up the corresponding piece and slot it in the hole, right?
1:15:31 I see it as things in our environment are pretending to be those shapes
1:15:34 And so they’re sort of impacting with our receptor site
1:15:38 That’s right, which is the hole and causing us to do things that are
1:15:44 Dysfunctional, that’s right. And this is well known has been known for years. We you know
1:15:47 It’s one of the reasons for the decrease in fertility
1:15:56 For the changes in reproductive capacity. It’s one of the reasons the alligator population in the Everglades is disappearing as endocrine disruptors
1:16:00 well, it also has effects on neurocognition and
1:16:02 brain development and
1:16:08 Potentially, I don’t want to you know get to a far field, but potentially might play a role in autism
1:16:11 We haven’t proven that yet. I want to make that clear
1:16:14 but without question
1:16:19 Some of these chemicals can cause fat cells to differentiate and grow so if they’re everywhere
1:16:22 What do I do about it because it feels like I can’t touch the floor
1:16:26 I can’t I can’t go to a meat lane a bed. I’m like, well, you can’t do much about air pollution
1:16:31 I mean except as a society we can do something we can’t do much about
1:16:38 The Teflon in the in the water or the TBT in the water except to try to pass
1:16:44 Regulations to control those things but you know and get get Congress or parliament to do that, you know
1:16:48 That’s a that’s a real trick. Is that better water that I can drink sorry just on that point
1:16:51 Well, you can try
1:16:54 Certainly tap water is going to be a problem
1:17:00 But the fact is some of the bottled water still have obesogens and to be honest with you if they’re if it’s bottled
1:17:03 The obesogen might be in the bottle
1:17:06 canned foods
1:17:13 If you look at the inside of the can, what color is it? Is it silver isn’t it silver or is it white?
1:17:17 Hmm if it’s white that’s BPA
1:17:19 so
1:17:24 canned foods have high BPA levels BPA is an estrogen
1:17:30 Okay, and it doesn’t take much to be an estrogen 22 angstroms to hydroxyl groups. You’re an estrogen
1:17:38 Okay, there are a lot of chemicals in our environment that masquerade as estrogens and BPA is one of them and estrogen causes
1:17:46 Fat deposition just look at the curves of a woman. That’s estrogen causing fat deposition. Well, BPA can do that too
1:17:55 So as an example, but there are also things in our food that we think are food and
1:18:00 One example is fructose now fructose
1:18:02 Has calories
1:18:11 True, but fructose has all these effects on mitochondria that have nothing to do with its calories in the same way that alcohol has calories
1:18:15 But alcohol has toxic effects that have nothing to do with its calories
1:18:20 So just because something has calories doesn’t make it a food
1:18:25 What’s the definition of food Stephen? I will tell you
1:18:30 Substrate that contributes to either growth or burning of an organism
1:18:36 So here’s the question. Does ultra process food contribute to growth?
1:18:42 My colleague Dr. Fratman Senigo or non who is the chairman of nutrition at Hebrew University, Jerusalem
1:18:49 Has looked at this question. In fact ultra process food inhibits growth
1:18:57 Populations that are supposed to high ultra process food consumption have lower final heights than populations that are not
1:19:01 So if it’s inhibiting growth
1:19:08 Not a food. Okay. Now. Let’s take burning. I’ve already told you that there are three enzymes that fructose
1:19:11 Which is in 73% of the items in the American grocery store
1:19:15 Inhibits burning because it inhibits mitochondrial function
1:19:19 So if you don’t stimulate growth and you don’t stimulate burning
1:19:22 Is that a food? No
1:19:26 So if it’s not a food, what is it poison? So
1:19:29 Food can be medicine
1:19:34 Food can also be poison and the question is how do you figure out which is which?
1:19:39 When you walk into the grocery store, it all looks the same
1:19:42 but in fact there are things in there that
1:19:44 will
1:19:47 contribute to growth and burning and there are things that will inhibit it and
1:19:53 We need some method for being able to distinguish
1:19:56 Those we have it
1:19:58 We made it
1:20:00 It exists on your computer
1:20:07 It will ultimately soon exist on your phone and you will actually be able to order your food
1:20:13 To be metabolically healthy without ever having to walk into that minefield of a grocery store
1:20:16 ever again, how would that be and
1:20:20 Just buy the stuff that’s good for you instead of
1:20:25 Chancing the stuff that’s bad for you. It’s called perfect and what it does is
1:20:34 It will filter out all of the stuff in the grocery store. That’s metabolically unhealthy for you
1:20:37 Not for the next guy for you
1:20:43 You can apply specific filters that will if you’re gluten-free will take out all the things that have gluten
1:20:46 So you don’t have to look at the label if you are if you have metabolic syndrome
1:20:50 It will take all the refined carbohydrate and all the sugar things out
1:20:55 So you don’t even have to look at them if you specifically want to avoid the ultra process food
1:21:01 It will take those out by the way that will cut the items that you can see in the grocery store by 80%
1:21:06 How many of you started thinking about your long-term health when you hit 30 for me?
1:21:12 This was a wake-up moment of me thinking to myself. Okay. I probably need to start paying a little bit more attention now
1:21:18 I already felt a change in myself when I hit 30 with things like my metabolism my energy levels
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1:22:04 Let’s talk then about fiber
1:22:09 We talked about it briefly, but I want to just really close off on the point of fire because
1:22:15 You said that when we take an apple here like the apple in my hand and we turn it into this thing in my hand this apple juice
1:22:19 Right, the harm is that they’re removing the fiber. Why does that matter?
1:22:25 So everyone thinks the fiber is the stuff you throw in the garbage after you’ve juiced the fruit
1:22:29 we were told forever that the
1:22:37 The juice had the essential vitamins and minerals like the vitamin C
1:22:44 Or the lycopene if your tomato and that’s true they do
1:22:47 But turns out the fiber is
1:22:52 Essential it’s just not essential for you
1:22:58 It’s essential for your bacteria. It’s essential for your microbiome
1:23:02 That’s what your bacteria want to eat
1:23:10 You have to feed your microbiome, you know always we always say when women are pregnant you’re eating for two
1:23:13 Well, we’re always eating for a hundred trillion
1:23:20 Okay, the hundred trillion are in our intestine and what you feed them matters
1:23:24 Because if you feed them well, you will have what we call
1:23:30 bacterial diversity and you will not have want any one species
1:23:36 Overwhelming any other species and that will actually contribute to metabolic health
1:23:43 It will allow for the barriers in the intestine to work properly the mucin layer the tight junctions the
1:23:50 Immunologic barrier called the th 17 cells your intestine will present the appropriate
1:23:58 Barriers so that bad stuff in your intestine won’t get into your bloodstream to cause systemic inflammation
1:24:00 so
1:24:07 Feeding your gut is job one and what is your gut like to eat? It likes to eat fiber now
1:24:10 We humans don’t have the enzymes to digest fiber
1:24:15 You need specialized enzymes the bacteria have them so that the
1:24:21 Fiber is the food for the bacteria when you take the fiber out of the food
1:24:28 You’re starving the bacteria now. How many grams of fiber are we supposed to eat every day?
1:24:33 Our ancestors ate between 50 and 100 grams of fiber a day
1:24:38 The USDA says we’re supposed to consume 25 grams of fiber per day
1:24:45 How many grams do we actually consume here in America? And by the way UK’s the same
1:24:47 mean 12
1:24:53 So we’re getting half the amount the USDA says and one quarter the amount our ancestors did
1:24:58 The question is does it matter the answers? Oh, yeah, it matters big
1:25:00 because what happens is
1:25:02 when you feed
1:25:08 Fiber to the bacteria you get multiple species instead of one
1:25:11 That basically crowd out all the others
1:25:17 Okay, and you get this metabolic biodiversity and it basically
1:25:21 Improves your metabolic health in addition the
1:25:28 Bacteria will chew that soluble fiber up into a compound called short chain fatty acids
1:25:32 Acetate propionate butyrate Valorate
1:25:38 Butyrate is particularly helpful. It is an immune suppressant
1:25:43 It keeps your immune system in check. It’s one of the reasons that
1:25:52 COVID was worse for people who were obese and who had pre-existing conditions like metabolic syndrome
1:26:00 And also of course minority populations because of ultra process food consumption and lack of fiber
1:26:04 lack of short chain fatty acids therefore lack of
1:26:12 Ability to fend off foreign invaders because their immune systems were not tamped down
1:26:15 Where did the fiber go?
1:26:18 They took it out. Why the root because you can’t freeze fiber
1:26:23 So that apple okay, yeah, okay
1:26:30 Your homework assignment for tonight. Yeah, take that apple and put it in your freezer overnight
1:26:35 Take it out in the morning. Put it on the kitchen countertop
1:26:37 Let it thaw
1:26:39 Try to eat it
1:26:40 See what you get
1:26:43 What am I gonna go mush? Oh really?
1:26:51 Now, why does that turn it into mush the ice crystals that form will macerate the cell wall and let all the water rush in
1:26:54 Okay, they turn it into mush food industry knows that
1:26:57 So what do they do squeeze it and freeze it now lasts forever now?
1:27:03 You’ve got apple juice or frozen concentrated orange juice. You have taken a fruit
1:27:08 Which is food and you have turned it into a commodity
1:27:14 Restorable food which you can sell on the commodities exchange
1:27:16 Because it won’t go bad
1:27:23 So it has a price and that price will fluctuate and you can then bet on the commodities exchange
1:27:30 But you can’t sell fruit like that because it’ll go rancid by the time you’ve sold it anywhere
1:27:35 So all these people are doing this to us. Um, what responsibility do I have on a personal level?
1:27:40 Because you know, if these companies the big companies with all this money trillions of dollars
1:27:46 They’re all manipulating me bastardizing my food food. The you know the hacking my brain to give me these adverts
1:27:50 Yep, I am it’s easy to fall into the trap of thinking listen. I’m a victim here
1:27:52 Well, you are
1:27:57 Because you’ve been hacked as we started this, you know the the podcast, okay?
1:28:03 You’ve been told one thing and the real world is actually something else. Okay, you’ve been hacked
1:28:10 You’ve specifically been hacked with the notion that process food is food
1:28:17 Everyone thinks that because they called it processed food. Maybe they shouldn’t call it processed food. Maybe they should call it
1:28:19 processed
1:28:20 nutrients
1:28:25 Because the stuff that’s in it are nutrients, but it’s not food
1:28:30 Because it doesn’t do what food does which is contribute to growth or burning
1:28:32 so
1:28:39 The question is what’s your responsibility and what society’s responsibility?
1:28:45 So this is a very important question and it’s a question, you know that comes up all the time
1:28:49 Personal responsibility
1:28:50 Does it exist?
1:28:56 Well in order to exercise personal responsibility first you have to exercise free will that’s a prerequisite
1:29:00 So we can get into this and we probably would need about six hours
1:29:08 Okay, and we don’t have it, but do we have free will yes or no?
1:29:12 Complicated question. It’s a complicated question
1:29:15 It’s one I’ve actually been researching this week funnily enough for a different project that I’m working on
1:29:18 Okay, and I was trying to find get to a point
1:29:24 Where I had a solid answer now, there’s a couple of schools of thoughts here one school of thought
1:29:26 when we look at the
1:29:28 neurological
1:29:34 Processes might suggest and there’s some early studies that suggest that we have much less free will than we assume
1:29:39 Because things happen in our brain before we make a decision. There’s some studies that
1:29:42 But
1:29:46 Do we have free will to make our own decisions
1:29:53 I think we have a lot less free will than we think we have very little free will
1:29:56 Yeah, if at all here’s the best way to think of it
1:29:59 Arthur Schopenhauer famous German philosopher
1:30:02 Famously said you were allowed
1:30:04 To do what you want
1:30:07 But you are not allowed to want what you want
1:30:17 Those things are actually predetermined so you have choice in whether you want the candy bar or the ice cream
1:30:25 But you don’t have choice about the fact that your nucleus accumbens is raging saying give me sugar
1:30:33 That’s the choice the choice is how you satisfy the biochemical drive
1:30:35 But the biochemical drive
1:30:39 Hasn’t you know is is way beyond free will
1:30:43 So the question is if you don’t have free will
1:30:50 How can you exercise personal responsibility because that’s a prerequisite in order to be able to do that because
1:30:52 personal responsibility says
1:30:57 Take the risk suffer the consequences, but if you can’t control
1:31:05 The risks or the consequences. How can you exercise personal responsibility? I have just shown you that the behaviors
1:31:14 associated with obesity the gluttony and the sloth are actually secondary to the biochemistry which you have absolutely no control over in fact
1:31:16 we have no
1:31:20 Ability to be able to mitigate that and that’s why
1:31:27 We have this obesity pandemic and you know diet and exercise hasn’t solved it for just that reason
1:31:34 So who do we need to point the finger at who needs to resolve the issue well, it has to be resolved at several
1:31:41 Levels it has to be resolved for the public. That’s why you and I are doing this podcast now because they have to understand
1:31:43 What’s really at issue? Okay?
1:31:46 Blaming the victim has never worked
1:31:49 When did it work? Did it work for HIV?
1:31:53 Did it work for tobacco it never worked?
1:31:59 Okay, every personal responsibility issue becomes a public health crisis
1:32:04 Because personal responsibility hasn’t solved any of them
1:32:11 It’s a loser. It’s a loser in terms of its mechanism and it’s a loser in terms of its
1:32:17 Efficacy doesn’t work. Can I throw a thought into there as well because in
1:32:23 Some areas of our lives where we do have discipline we tend to have a bias towards assuming everyone else doesn’t have
1:32:31 Discipline and that’s what they’re missing right if that makes sense. So yeah, quick great way to blame people listening to this that don’t struggle with
1:32:36 Do a diet and sugar and all of those things in excess and whatever all those subjects
1:32:42 What would their brain are probably be thinking god? You can just choose not to I choose not to all the time
1:32:46 I choose not to have the kind of you know fizzy drink all the time
1:32:52 Because their nucleus accumbens is not going off like a Christmas tree. Why is it not going off like a Christmas tree?
1:32:59 We don’t know yet. Why does some people smoke and some people don’t why does some people drink and some people don’t look 40% of
1:33:02 Americans are teetotalers never touch the stuff
1:33:08 40% are social drinkers can pick it up put it down, you know, no problem. I’m in that category
1:33:14 20% are binge drinkers. I’m sorry 10% have been drinkers and 10% are chronic alcoholics
1:33:19 What distinguishes the 20% who have a problem from the 80% who don’t?
1:33:21 We don’t know yet
1:33:26 To this day, we still don’t know but we know that for that 20% it is a problem
1:33:32 We also know there’s this thing called sugar addiction and there’s going to be on May 17th in London
1:33:36 The International Conference on food addiction. I will be the keynote speaker
1:33:40 To discuss exactly this issue
1:33:47 Is there such a thing as food addiction? And if there is such a thing as food addiction does it portend?
1:33:50 need for societal remediation
1:33:55 Right or is this really just a personal responsibility issue?
1:34:02 Well, everything that is both toxic and addictive has required some sort of societal intervention
1:34:09 Okay, so you have things that are toxic but not addictive like oxygen and water. You don’t have to regulate those
1:34:12 You have things that are addictive but not toxic like caffeine
1:34:16 Well, you don’t have to really regulate that either unless you add it to alcohol
1:34:20 In which case then you have for a local and then you get a rhythm is and then you do have to regulate it
1:34:29 but what if you’re both toxic and addictive like cocaine or alcohol or nicotine or heroin for those we all have
1:34:37 societal intervention, you know rehab for the personal and laws for the societal
1:34:43 For sugar for ultra process food. We have nothing
1:34:48 It’s the same issue nothing different
1:34:55 So you want regulation from the government on sugar. I think that
1:35:00 The industry has to be told what to do
1:35:03 They haven’t yet
1:35:10 Now the question is would it work and the answer is yeah would and actually who found out that it would work
1:35:16 The UK you did it. You did it back in the 2000s
1:35:19 So in 2003 the Blair government
1:35:23 brought all of the
1:35:24 UK
1:35:26 food manufacturers to the table in
1:35:30 secret so weight rows and
1:35:34 Tesco and M&S and you know every other CPG
1:35:37 purveyor in in the UK and
1:35:40 had a secret meeting and
1:35:48 We’re told and told them look hypertension is running rampant and stroke is breaking the NHS Bank
1:35:55 And it’s because of the sodium we have to get the sodium levels in
1:36:04 The processed foods down so every one of you is going to play by the same rules so that there’s no competitive
1:36:12 Disadvantage and you’re all going to reduce the amount of sodium in each of your items by 10 percent per year
1:36:17 over a three-year period so that there will be 30 percent less sodium
1:36:21 three years from now in
1:36:24 2006 there was 2007 I think at the time and
1:36:28 they all did and they didn’t tell the public and
1:36:35 In 2011 famous paper in British Medical Journal showed a 40% reduction in hypertension and stroke
1:36:41 Due to this public health intervention that the Blair government did
1:36:46 Without telling the public it works should it tell the public no
1:36:49 Don’t tell the public
1:36:51 so
1:36:53 Would this work for sugar?
1:37:01 So I am working with a company in the Middle East right now. Okay. I don’t take money
1:37:05 Okay, that’s a you know, I do this because it’s the right thing to do
1:37:12 It’s called Kuwaiti Danish dairy KDD. It’s like the Nestle of the Middle East and they make all sorts of junk
1:37:19 They make flavored milks. They make ice cream. They make frozen yogurt. They make biscuits. They make confectionery
1:37:22 They make tomato sauce. Okay, like all bad stuff
1:37:28 All right, they came to me in 2020 and said we want to be a metabolically healthy company
1:37:36 We want to do the right thing because right now Kuwait has an 18% diabetes rate and then 80%
1:37:39 Obesity rate and we don’t want to be the cause of it
1:37:44 Can you help us re-engineer our product portfolio?
1:37:48 to be metabolically healthy and
1:37:52 so we convene convene the scientific advisory team and
1:37:58 we’ve worked for the past three years to develop a set of guidelines a set of principles and
1:38:01 We have developed what we call the metabolic matrix
1:38:07 Three principles three precepts to turn food
1:38:10 Metabolically healthy and here they are
1:38:12 protect the liver
1:38:13 feed the gut
1:38:15 support the brain
1:38:20 Any food that does all three of those is healthy whether it’s ultra processed or not
1:38:23 Any food that does none of the three is
1:38:27 Poison whether it’s ultra processed or not
1:38:29 Now why those three organs?
1:38:37 Because if you the data show in the literature if you fix those three organs all the downstream organs also get fixed
1:38:43 Whereas if you fix other organs those three organs don’t get fixed. So those three organs are primary
1:38:46 And all the data shows that if you fix those three
1:38:49 you can actually improve both
1:38:52 morbidity and mortality
1:38:57 So that’s the the goal. That’s the rubric
1:39:01 Protect the liver feed the gut support the brain. So
1:39:05 Could we apply that principle to
1:39:10 The food supply can any individual apply it to their own
1:39:17 Grocery purchases use perfect. You’ll get it. Can the government do it?
1:39:20 Yeah, they did it in the UK
1:39:22 They can do it again
1:39:27 It’s not crazy. It can be done. The fact is we’re all carrying a belief system around
1:39:36 Okay, and now where’d that belief system come from the belief system is that ultra process food is food. Yeah, we’re gonna come from
1:39:38 Came from the food industry
1:39:42 They told us so the scientists and governments told us so as well though
1:39:46 Oh, yeah history. So how do we know the scientists and governments are telling us the truth now?
1:39:50 That’s a very good question. That’s a super question
1:39:54 How do you know?
1:39:56 What’s true?
1:40:00 We’re we’re in this problem right now. I’m worried that in 20 years time
1:40:03 I’m gonna be sat around this podcast of people are still listening and I’m gonna be sat with another scientist
1:40:06 And he’s gonna be saying do you know that the doctor?
1:40:14 Robert lusting who you had on 20 years ago everything. He said has been disproved and he’s gonna say fructose is the key apple juice is really important
1:40:21 We found out that vegetables are causing autism. Did you ever see the movie sleeper? No Woody Allen 1973?
1:40:23 No movies
1:40:31 He wakes up after 200 years and suspended animation and he finds out that hot fudge and deep fatter good for you
1:40:37 So we’ve you know debunked all the you know stuff from before so I
1:40:40 Get this question all the time
1:40:48 Everything we knew 10 years ago is already wrong and everything we know today will be wrong 10 years from now
1:40:53 So if everything we know today will be wrong 10 years from now
1:40:58 Why do anything about it because no matter what it is. It’s likely to be wrong
1:41:05 This is known as the pessimistic meta induction theory. This is how the dark ages started
1:41:08 The idea of dogma
1:41:11 There’s only one dog must even
1:41:13 And the dogma is that there is no dogma
1:41:16 Because everything
1:41:23 Has to be refined dogma. How do you define the way dogma dogma means you take it on faith?
1:41:29 Okay, you take it on faith. Okay. That’s what science is for is to debunk the previous
1:41:35 Generations dogma if we didn’t do that. Okay, we’d still be using leeches
1:41:42 Okay, we’ve debunked that dogma. We would still think that seizures were demonic possession
1:41:48 We’ve debunked that dogma. Okay, ultimately science is not a straight line. It’s a zigzag
1:41:51 Okay, but it still moves forward
1:41:55 So if I end up being discredited
1:41:59 10 years from now 20 years from now 30 years from now
1:42:03 Hey, I was a cog in the wheel at least I drove
1:42:05 The the the vehicle forward
1:42:08 That’s okay
1:42:14 And science is really a process isn’t it? Exactly. It’s not a process. It’s not a set of religious belief
1:42:17 It’s not a set of answers. It’s just a process to uncovering
1:42:23 Information I guess but you have to then evaluate each piece of information for its veracity
1:42:31 Yeah, because the problem with information is we’re now peppered with disinformation and how do you determine?
1:42:33 What’s real and what’s not?
1:42:35 You say that to achieve contentment
1:42:42 You recommend following the four C’s for contentment indeed. What are the four C’s by the way?
1:42:48 If you follow the four C’s you will be a whole lot better off in terms of your understanding
1:42:50 information versus disinformation
1:42:56 so in my book hacking of the American or contemporary mind I
1:43:01 Talk about ways to lower your dopamine
1:43:05 Reduce your cortisol and raise your serotonin and
1:43:12 There are all four things your mother told you and they’re all free and they’re all available to everyone on the planet
1:43:18 Number one
1:43:22 Connect now connect does not mean through Facebook
1:43:30 Connect does not mean digital connection. It means social connection. It means what we’re doing right now face-to-face eye-to-eye
1:43:39 Now why does Facebook not work? Why does zoom not work? You’re looking at somebody eye-to-eye
1:43:43 They’ve they’ve now done the imaging studies
1:43:50 Okay, there are a set of neurons in the back of your head in the occipital cortex called mirror neurons and they are not just
1:43:55 Reading the lips of the person you’re talking to they are reading the facial
1:44:02 Structures and the muscle movements and they are actually transducing the emotion
1:44:07 From the person you’re talking to when you’re watching on a screen it flattens out
1:44:10 You can’t tell so you don’t get the same information
1:44:13 That information ultimately
1:44:16 Generates a serotonin signal
1:44:24 So you get contentment so social connection actually drives contentment. So that’s number one number two
1:44:31 Contribute and that does not mean to your retirement account. It means contribute to others
1:44:34 Okay, contribute with purpose
1:44:42 Like habitat for humanity basically giving to others because when they when you give to others
1:44:47 You feel better yourself. Okay, that generates a serotonin signal
1:44:53 So, you know blottery winners, you know are not happy
1:45:01 But the people who actually give their money away are that’s one of the reasons why we have philanthropy makes people feel better
1:45:08 Quite selfish in that regard then isn’t it? Well, yes, indeed. It seems selfless, but it’s actually selfish, which is fine
1:45:10 It works just great
1:45:13 number three cope and
1:45:20 Cope is three things. It’s sleep mindfulness exercise all of which are necessary to tamp down cortisol
1:45:26 Because you if you’re sleep deprived your cortisol goes through the roof if you are
1:45:32 Distracted multitasking your cortisol goes through the roof. Okay, and if you’re sedentary
1:45:38 Okay, you number one you’re eating like crazy and you’re also and your cortisol also goes through the roof sleep mindfulness exercise
1:45:44 All things to get your cortisol down and finally number four the last sea cook
1:45:53 Why because there are three things that contribute to this dopamine serotonin imbalance the first
1:45:59 Tryptophanen tryptophanen is the precursor to serotonin tryptophanen is not an ultra processed food
1:46:04 It is the rarest amino acid you find it in eggs chicken fish not exactly ultra processed food
1:46:06 number two
1:46:08 Fructose fructose reduces serotonin
1:46:13 okay, and there’s lots of fructose in the ultra processed food and
1:46:20 finally lastly omega-3 fatty acids and omega-3 fatty acids are and again eggs and in
1:46:23 Marine life
1:46:28 Okay, there’s a little bit of omega-3s and vegetables, you know ala which is doesn’t reach the brain
1:46:32 So that’s not a that’s not a big winner for fixing this problem
1:46:40 So you need high tryptophan low fructose high omega-3s sounds like real food to me
1:46:43 so
1:46:46 Connect contribute cope
1:46:52 Cook it will tamp down your dopamine reduce your cortisol raise your serotonin
1:46:55 improve your mental health
1:46:57 improve your metabolic health and
1:47:00 Will solve your problem?
1:47:04 It won’t solve societies
1:47:10 We have to work on getting the whole world to understand what the problem is before we can fix it
1:47:17 Dr. Robert listing what is the thing we haven’t talked about the most important topic we haven’t talked about that we should have
1:47:20 Wow, well
1:47:26 We have a systemic health crisis
1:47:30 Diabetes metabolic syndrome
1:47:36 Dementia cancer we have a mental health crisis
1:47:39 depression
1:47:41 suicide
1:47:43 Schizophrenia
1:47:46 Autism 80d
1:47:51 We have a global health crisis we have
1:47:58 Cyberbullying we have social inequality. We have war we have
1:48:05 Climate change planet is emulating all at the same time
1:48:09 Coincidence
1:48:12 Or are these somehow
1:48:16 Inextricably related
1:48:22 Are these the same thing or these different things if we believe they are separate
1:48:25 We’re gonna solve try to solve each one
1:48:29 Individually and never get to the root cause
1:48:32 The root cause is
1:48:36 Our amygdala the fear center of our brain
1:48:40 It’s under attack
1:48:43 From all of the things we’ve talked about today
1:48:48 That dysfunctional amygdala is the driver of
1:48:55 Chronic disease it is the driver of the mental health crisis. It is the driver of the global health and planetary crisis
1:49:00 There are for breaks on the amygdala and they’re all dysfunctional today
1:49:04 And they’re all dysfunctional because of the things we’ve talked about today
1:49:13 Because of cortisol because of stress because of ultraprocess food because of sleep deprivation because of the
1:49:19 Change in the environment because of air pollution because of all the things that
1:49:22 ultimately impact our
1:49:25 brain’s ability to
1:49:27 transduce information
1:49:30 Until we recognize where the problem is
1:49:33 We’re gonna be spinning our wheels
1:49:39 We can do this we can back out the same way we drove into the stitch
1:49:44 But you can’t solve a problem until you know what the problem is
1:49:47 Dr. Robert listing. Thank you so much
1:49:52 We have a closing tradition on this podcast where the last guest leaves a question for the next guest not knowing who they’re leaving it for
1:49:56 And the question that’s been left for you is here we go. Let’s have a look
1:50:08 Okay, nice question. Um, what would you tell your 20 year old self that you wish you knew and that would have positively
1:50:11 impacted your life and avoided pain I
1:50:21 Wish I had known that I
1:50:25 Didn’t have to please everyone
1:50:31 There’s a book called the courage of being disliked
1:50:34 It’s
1:50:40 Courageous to be disliked. I was afraid of being disliked
1:50:44 And because I was afraid of being disliked I was disliked
1:50:49 It’s such a I had known
1:50:52 that
1:50:53 nugget of truth
1:50:55 early on in my career
1:50:59 Thank you so much, Dr.
1:51:04 Thank you, Stephen. I have to say your work is exceptional and your books are incredible. I’ve got
1:51:08 Three of them here, but I know that there’s many more
1:51:13 I’d recommend them all incredibly highly the hacking of the American mind is a fantastic book
1:51:17 That doesn’t just apply to Americans applies to all industries around the world
1:51:20 All Western economies around the world which are set up in very similar ways
1:51:26 Fat chance and another book that I’ve been through in detail is about beating the odds against sugar process food obesity and disease
1:51:33 Which covers much of your work and the studies that you reference today an incredible incredible book and I also have this book called
1:51:40 Metabolical did I pronounce that correctly? You did Metabolical the lure and the lies of processed food nutrition and modern medicine
1:51:46 Which is a little bit of a bigger book, but it’s it gives more of the foundations around metabolism, which I think a lot of people don’t understand
1:51:53 So thank you. Thank you for your your brilliance in so many ways and but thank you for your life’s work because your life’s work is
1:51:58 Saving lies it’s propelling us forward. It’s it’s driving a conversation forward and you do it in a way
1:52:03 That’s so unbelievably engaging that it’s hard not to pay attention. So thank you, Robert
1:52:05 Well, thank you and thank you for you doing what you do
1:52:07 , you
1:52:37 , you