AI transcript
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0:00:48 – Hamburglar, why are you calling?
0:00:49 – Rubble, rubble.
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0:01:01 – Rubble.
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0:01:05 Compared to beef burgers on McDonald’s current menu
0:01:07 at participating restaurants in Canada.
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0:01:53 – Episode 329, 329 is the area
0:01:56 of belonging to the Hudson Valley region of New York.
0:02:00 In 1929, the Museum of Modern Art, MoMA,
0:02:02 opened a New York City true story.
0:02:04 I posed nude for my art class.
0:02:06 Problem was, they didn’t ask me.
0:02:11 – Go, go, go!
0:02:14 (upbeat music)
0:02:22 – Welcome to the 329th episode of the Prop G Pod,
0:02:23 the Dugs on Vacation.
0:02:26 That’s right, I’m in a field running.
0:02:28 So in place of our regular schedule programming,
0:02:30 we’re sharing a conversation with Daniel Pink,
0:02:32 the author of various bestselling books,
0:02:35 including The Power of Regret and When,
0:02:37 as well as the number one New York Times bestseller,
0:02:39 Drive, and To Sell Is Human.
0:02:42 We discuss with Daniel Regret, human motivation,
0:02:45 and his Washington Post column, Why Not?
0:02:48 He’s a great storyteller, interesting concepts.
0:02:50 It’s kind of, it’s like if Ted exploded
0:02:53 or if Ted was personified, I think it’d be Daniel Pink.
0:02:58 Anyways, with that, here’s our conversation with Daniel Pink.
0:02:59 – So let’s press right into it.
0:03:03 You wrote a book about regret, The Power of Regret.
0:03:05 You said that the advice you give us
0:03:08 to stay positive, look ahead, and never dwell on the past,
0:03:10 which is harmful, why?
0:03:13 – Because we have completely misunderstood
0:03:15 this emotion of regret.
0:03:16 We’ve been told, as you mentioned,
0:03:19 that we should be positive all the time, never be negative,
0:03:20 we should look forward, not back,
0:03:22 and that’s bad advice, it goes against the science.
0:03:24 It will, what the science tells us is that
0:03:29 if we don’t ignore regrets, and don’t wallow in our regrets,
0:03:32 but confront them, think about them, look them in the eye,
0:03:33 it’s a transformative emotion.
0:03:35 It helps us in a variety of ways.
0:03:37 – Well, that makes sense.
0:03:41 I don’t, my struggle is, I make mistakes every day,
0:03:44 and I can’t forget myself, and I don’t know if that’s regret,
0:03:47 but where does regret become unhealthy
0:03:48 in a source of depression
0:03:49 where you can never get out of the past?
0:03:51 – Well, I mean, there’s a big difference,
0:03:52 so when it’s a source of depression,
0:03:53 that’s a medical issue.
0:03:56 What I’m writing about here, I’m not a doctor,
0:04:00 so I can’t opine on the medical dimensions of it.
0:04:01 Essentially what we should be doing,
0:04:03 and I think there is some relation,
0:04:06 and how the scientific ways to deal with regret
0:04:10 are actually very similar to cognitive behavior therapy,
0:04:13 which is essentially not looking at your emotions
0:04:17 as who you are, but as something that is going on,
0:04:18 as something that is going on in your life,
0:04:20 that is to examine them,
0:04:22 and so when you’re talking about reckoning with regret,
0:04:26 one of the first steps is something called self-compassion,
0:04:29 and self-compassion is in some ways a triangulation
0:04:32 between self-esteem and self-flagellation.
0:04:35 We tend to believe that lacerating self-criticism
0:04:38 is the way to get us to perform better,
0:04:39 and there’s no evidence of that.
0:04:41 There’s also very little evidence
0:04:43 that kind of constantly patting yourself on the back
0:04:44 and boosting your self-esteem is good.
0:04:47 What seems to be good is the work that Kristin Neff
0:04:49 has done at University of Texas on self-compassion,
0:04:51 which is essentially treating yourself with kindness
0:04:55 rather than contempt, recognizing that mistakes,
0:04:57 setbacks, or regrets are part of life,
0:04:59 and then using that as a stepstone
0:05:01 to thinking about your regrets.
0:05:04 One of the things we see in the research on self-compassion
0:05:06 is that people have a very, many people,
0:05:07 particularly high achieving people,
0:05:09 have a very difficult, they talk to themselves
0:05:11 in ways they would never talk to anybody else.
0:05:14 So if I were probably to harness your self-talk, all right,
0:05:17 we were to use those headphones you’re wearing now
0:05:20 and create this magical thing that allows me
0:05:22 to hear what you’re saying to yourself,
0:05:24 especially in the face of a mistake.
0:05:26 It would probably be brutal.
0:05:27 It would probably be lacerating.
0:05:29 It would probably be cruel.
0:05:31 And chances are you wouldn’t say that to somebody else.
0:05:33 And so what the research on self-compassion tells us
0:05:35 is don’t treat yourself better than anybody else,
0:05:37 but don’t treat yourself worse than anybody else
0:05:39 because it’s not effective.
0:05:41 – So all this just makes all sorts of sense, right?
0:05:44 I’ve always said that one of my things,
0:05:47 it’s like three of my last five new year’s resolutions
0:05:49 have been to forgive myself.
0:05:52 What is the actual cognitive behavior of the exercise
0:05:54 is to get better than this?
0:05:56 You logically, it is impossible rationally,
0:05:58 logically not to agree with you.
0:06:00 What are the actual behavioral modification techniques
0:06:01 for getting there?
0:06:02 – I’ll give you an example, okay?
0:06:04 ‘Cause this goes to some of the other ways
0:06:06 that we deal with regret.
0:06:09 What seems to be a very effective technique
0:06:11 on a whole range of things
0:06:13 is what’s known as self-distancing.
0:06:17 There’s a psychological phenomenon known as
0:06:20 Solomon’s paradox, which is that we human beings
0:06:21 are pretty good at solving problems,
0:06:23 but we tend to stink at solving our own problems
0:06:25 ’cause we’re too close to them.
0:06:28 So a way to be more compassionate to yourself
0:06:30 is to say what you would say to someone
0:06:33 who is telling you what you’re telling yourself.
0:06:35 So if you had a friend who was telling themselves,
0:06:37 you’re an idiot, you’re an imposter,
0:06:39 you don’t deserve to be here, you’re worthless.
0:06:41 What would you say to that person?
0:06:45 I mean, what would you say to that person?
0:06:47 – You’d say for God’s sake, stop it
0:06:51 and list off some positive metrics.
0:06:53 – That’s the kind of thing they can say to yourself.
0:06:55 There are other great self-distancing techniques.
0:06:57 There’s one of the best decision-making
0:07:01 self-distancing techniques is when you’re stuck on a decision
0:07:04 is to ask yourself, what would I tell my best friend to do?
0:07:08 That’s a great, very specific, practical tip.
0:07:10 In a business setting, you can use
0:07:11 the old Andy Grove technique,
0:07:14 where he said when he faced a tough decision
0:07:16 back when he was the CEO of Intel,
0:07:19 he would ask himself, if I were replaced tomorrow,
0:07:21 what would my successor do?
0:07:22 And he almost always knew.
0:07:25 And so the idea here in the research on self-distancing
0:07:29 is that when we tackle our own problems, our own issues,
0:07:31 we tend to look at them like scuba divers.
0:07:33 And what we should be doing is looking at them
0:07:36 like oceanographers, getting above them.
0:07:37 And there are ways to do that.
0:07:39 There’s research showing that actually
0:07:41 you can improve your performance.
0:07:43 If you want to talk about self-talk,
0:07:46 you can improve your performance by talking to yourself
0:07:49 in the second person or the third person.
0:07:50 Instead of asking yourself, what should I do?
0:07:51 Say, what should you do?
0:07:53 Or better, what should Scott do?
0:07:55 – In an effort to understand the difference between
0:07:57 unproductive and productive regret,
0:08:00 have you been able to reverse engineer,
0:08:01 productive or unproductive regret
0:08:04 of any sort of identity or experience, gender,
0:08:07 the way you were raised, your approach to life?
0:08:08 – Not really.
0:08:11 I can answer that question in two different ways.
0:08:12 Number one is that for this book,
0:08:14 what I did is I did two things.
0:08:17 I did the largest public opinion survey ever conducted
0:08:19 on American attitudes about regret.
0:08:23 Trying to identify whether there were demographic differences
0:08:26 in how people experience regret or what they regretted.
0:08:29 So looking at everything from race, from education level,
0:08:32 even things like introversion, extraversion,
0:08:34 belief in God, et cetera, et cetera.
0:08:36 The one demographic difference that came out
0:08:41 in this public opinion research had to do with age.
0:08:45 And what it showed is that people in their 20s
0:08:49 had about equal numbers of regrets of action and inaction.
0:08:51 That is in the architecture of regret.
0:08:52 You can regret something you did,
0:08:54 you can regret something you didn’t do.
0:08:56 People in their 20s had roughly equal numbers
0:08:58 of regrets of action and inaction.
0:09:02 But as people age, the inaction regrets take over.
0:09:06 When you get to be in your 40s, certainly 50s, 60s, 70s,
0:09:08 inaction regrets, outnumber action regrets
0:09:10 by three and a half, four to one.
0:09:13 So that’s a big difference in the content
0:09:15 of what people regret.
0:09:16 But when you look at things like,
0:09:18 do men and women have different regrets?
0:09:21 There’s some evidence, there’s modest evidence
0:09:22 showing some differences.
0:09:25 In my research, I saw a tiny little bit,
0:09:26 not that much on race.
0:09:28 A little bit on education level.
0:09:33 I found that people with large amounts of formal education
0:09:35 actually had more career regrets
0:09:37 than people with less formal education,
0:09:39 which sort of is superficially surprising,
0:09:41 but perfectly understandable
0:09:43 because if you have more education,
0:09:44 you have more opportunities,
0:09:46 which means you have more opportunities foregone.
0:09:48 And so the demographic differences
0:09:51 in what people regret were not massive.
0:09:54 Now, I also did a piece of qualitative research
0:09:56 where we collected regrets from 26,000 people
0:09:58 around the world.
0:10:00 And there I found that around the world,
0:10:03 people seem to have the same four core regrets.
0:10:07 They go deeper than simply a regret about a career,
0:10:09 a regret about romance, a regret about health,
0:10:11 a regret about finance,
0:10:15 go deeper than those surface domains of life.
0:10:16 – Are these the four you’re talking about in your book,
0:10:18 “Foundation, Boldness, Moral, and Connection?”
0:10:19 Can you say more about those?
0:10:20 – Sure, sure.
0:10:23 So again, we have this pretty remarkable database
0:10:27 of regrets from 134 countries.
0:10:30 The survey was up in Chinese, it was up in Spanish,
0:10:31 and obviously it was up in English.
0:10:34 And the four regrets that people around the world
0:10:37 seem to have are exactly, as you say, foundation regrets.
0:10:40 Small decisions people make early in life
0:10:42 that accumulate to terrible consequences later in life.
0:10:46 I spent too much and saved too little, and now I’m broke.
0:10:47 I didn’t exercise or eat right,
0:10:49 and now I’m profoundly out of shape.
0:10:51 So that’s a foundation regret.
0:10:54 Boldness regret is a very big category of regret.
0:10:56 You’re at a juncture in your life and you have two choices.
0:10:59 You can play it safe, or you can take the chance.
0:11:03 And overwhelmingly, when people don’t take the chance,
0:11:04 they regret it.
0:11:04 Now, that’s not true for everybody.
0:11:06 There are plenty of people who take a chance
0:11:08 and it goes south on them and they regret it.
0:11:12 But they are massively outnumbered
0:11:14 by people who didn’t take the chance.
0:11:16 And again, what’s interesting here
0:11:18 is that it doesn’t matter the domain.
0:11:20 So I have hundreds of people who regret
0:11:22 not asking somebody out on a date.
0:11:24 Hundreds of people who regret not traveling,
0:11:26 not starting a business, not doing something
0:11:28 that required a little bit more boldness
0:11:31 than they were willing to offer up at the time.
0:11:34 Third category, moral regrets.
0:11:35 Another time when you have a choice.
0:11:38 I can take the low road, I can take the high road.
0:11:40 I can do the right thing, I can do the wrong thing.
0:11:43 And overwhelmingly, most people most of the time
0:11:46 regret doing the wrong thing.
0:11:49 Because most people are decent
0:11:50 and most people want to be decent
0:11:53 and most people feel crappy when they’re not decent.
0:11:54 And the final one are connection regrets
0:11:56 which are about relationships
0:11:57 and not only romantic relationships
0:12:01 but the full spectrum of relationships in our lives.
0:12:04 So you’ve got a relationship that was intact
0:12:05 or should have been intact.
0:12:06 Say with a friend or with a sibling
0:12:10 or with a parent or whoever and it comes apart.
0:12:13 And in many cases, the way these relationships come apart
0:12:16 is unexciting and undramatic.
0:12:18 They just kind of drift apart.
0:12:20 Somebody wants to reach out.
0:12:23 They don’t because they think it’s gonna be awkward
0:12:26 and they think the other side’s not gonna care.
0:12:27 So it drifts apart even more.
0:12:29 And so those are the four regrets.
0:12:31 Foundation regrets have only had done the work.
0:12:33 Boldness regrets have only had taken the chance.
0:12:36 Moral regrets have only had done the right thing.
0:12:38 And connection regrets, if only had reached out.
0:12:41 And it’s remarkable consistency all over the world
0:12:44 in the way people talk about these regrets
0:12:46 these regrets and the content of their regrets.
0:12:48 – I love this type of research.
0:12:49 In addition to yours, I read a lot of
0:12:51 what my colleague at NYU, Adam Alter,
0:12:54 has written about palliative care and end of life.
0:12:55 And it foots to everything you’re saying.
0:12:58 The only thing we haven’t talked about
0:12:59 and it’s sort of a mix of all of them
0:13:03 or an alchemy of all of them is that people,
0:13:05 the number one regret I’ve read
0:13:07 is that people wish they’d been less hard on themselves.
0:13:09 They’d wish they’d forgiven themselves.
0:13:11 And that is one of my favorite sayings
0:13:13 that’s gotten me through a lot of hard times
0:13:15 is nothing is ever as good or as bad as it seems.
0:13:17 And that when you look back on your life,
0:13:20 you won’t be as upset about the thing that happened to you.
0:13:22 You’ll be upset about how you responded to it.
0:13:23 Your thoughts?
0:13:25 – I think that’s generally right.
0:13:28 I mean, that is essentially the underlying philosophy
0:13:31 of the underlying theory of cognitive behavior therapy,
0:13:32 which is basically how you respond to it.
0:13:36 It’s also essentially an element of stoic philosophy,
0:13:39 which has become incredibly popular now.
0:13:42 And so, I mean, the other thing, I mean, also, you know,
0:13:44 I think what’s interesting about these regrets
0:13:47 is interviewing people about their regrets
0:13:50 is that when people tell you what they regret the most,
0:13:51 they’re telling you what they value the most.
0:13:54 And so, what we know from these four regrets
0:13:56 is that people value stability.
0:13:58 They value growth and learning
0:14:00 and not wasting their time on the planet.
0:14:02 They value goodness and they value love.
0:14:04 And I think that’s very consistent
0:14:07 with some of the other research we know
0:14:10 on that we have on human flourishing,
0:14:12 part of which tells us that ultimately
0:14:17 at the end of our lives, what’s gonna matter to us
0:14:20 is did we have people in our lives who loved us
0:14:21 and did we love other people?
0:14:23 Period, full stop.
0:14:24 I mean, if you look at the research,
0:14:26 if you look at the grant study at Harvard,
0:14:30 this lengthy, multi-decade, longitudinal study
0:14:33 of human flourishing, that’s what it shows.
0:14:35 And I think what’s interesting about this research
0:14:39 on regret and in general is also to your point, Scott,
0:14:42 is most decisions we make in a given day
0:14:45 don’t really matter all that much.
0:14:46 And I think this is why it’s important
0:14:48 to think about our regrets.
0:14:50 You probably made a hundred decisions yesterday
0:14:53 and it’s today and you don’t remember most of them.
0:14:56 But there are decisions and indecisions that you made,
0:14:58 that we made, human beings made,
0:15:02 each of us a year ago, five years ago, 10 years ago,
0:15:04 20 years ago, that not only do we remember them
0:15:07 when we don’t remember most decisions we made yesterday,
0:15:09 not only to remember a decision or indecision
0:15:12 from 20 years ago, but it bugs us.
0:15:13 That’s a very strong signal.
0:15:14 That’s telling us something.
0:15:15 And so we have a choice.
0:15:17 We can either plug our ears and say,
0:15:19 nope, I’m gonna be positive all the time.
0:15:22 Or we can say, oh my God, I’m the worst person in the world
0:15:23 and let it topple us.
0:15:25 Or we can say, huh, that’s interesting.
0:15:27 That’s a pretty strong signal.
0:15:28 Let me listen to this signal.
0:15:30 Let me use it as data.
0:15:32 And when we do that, there’s a lot of evidence
0:15:33 showing that regret can help us
0:15:35 on a whole range of different things.
0:15:37 It can help us become better negotiators,
0:15:40 better problem solvers, avoid cognitive biases,
0:15:43 strategize better, find more meaning in life.
0:15:46 We’ll be right back.
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0:16:57 All right, I need all the procrastinators to listen up.
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0:17:54 (bell rings)
0:17:56 – Hamburglar, why are you calling?
0:17:57 – Rubble, rubble.
0:18:00 – McDonald’s has a new biggest burger called Big Arch,
0:18:03 made with two 100% Canadian beef patties,
0:18:04 a new delicious sauce,
0:18:06 and all the McDonald’s flavors you love,
0:18:08 and wait, you want me to help you get it?
0:18:09 – Rubble.
0:18:10 – Come on.
0:18:13 Compared to beef burgers on McDonald’s current menu
0:18:15 at participating restaurants in Canada.
0:18:22 – I think of you as the motivation guy.
0:18:24 I first came across your work.
0:18:26 I was excited that you were great to come on the pod
0:18:29 ’cause I remember literally 10 or 15 years ago,
0:18:33 I stumbled upon this video where you used an animation
0:18:36 to kind of brilliantly and succinctly,
0:18:39 I’m sure you know the video, it went everywhere.
0:18:42 And I feel like that was sort of an inflection point for you.
0:18:45 You became kind of owned motivation.
0:18:47 Your book drive the surprising truth
0:18:49 about what motivates us.
0:18:51 I loved the way you broke it down,
0:18:54 autonomy, mastery, and purpose.
0:18:56 Can you say more about those three pillars
0:18:58 of the motivation stool?
0:19:01 – Sure, I mean, what we know about especially motivation
0:19:05 at work is that we sort of have this head fake going on.
0:19:07 We think that a certain kind of reward,
0:19:09 what I call if then rewards,
0:19:11 are the secret to effective motivation.
0:19:12 If you do this, then you get that.
0:19:14 If you do this, then you get that.
0:19:16 And we have now 60 years of research showing us
0:19:20 that if then rewards are pretty good for simple tasks
0:19:21 with short time horizons,
0:19:24 but not that effective for complex tasks with long horizons.
0:19:26 And that for complex tasks with long horizons,
0:19:28 what we wanna do in the workplace especially
0:19:29 is pay people well.
0:19:32 And then as you say, offer them those three things.
0:19:34 Autonomy, mastery, and purpose.
0:19:37 So autonomy is, do you have some control
0:19:39 over what you do, how you do it,
0:19:41 when you do it, where you do it?
0:19:42 The mastery is, are you getting better
0:19:43 at something that matters?
0:19:46 Are you making progress in something meaningful?
0:19:48 And purpose is, do you know why you’re doing it?
0:19:50 Are you making a difference in the world?
0:19:53 Are you making a contribution in your own little terrain?
0:19:54 And those are the things
0:19:57 that actually lead to enduring motivation.
0:20:00 These if-then rewards are like,
0:20:02 it’s like, you can keep shoveling coal into the furnace,
0:20:04 but it burns up pretty quickly.
0:20:07 And but these, if these autonomy, mastery, and purpose,
0:20:11 which form sort of the trifecta of intrinsic motivation,
0:20:15 lead to enduring high performance.
0:20:18 – And what are the enemies of motivation?
0:20:20 I was default to the word now.
0:20:21 You wanna write a book, just start.
0:20:23 So many people come up to me.
0:20:25 I wanna start a podcast.
0:20:25 I wanna write a book.
0:20:27 I’m like, okay, start.
0:20:30 Other than that, I don’t know what advice to give you.
0:20:32 What are the killers of motivation?
0:20:34 – Well, I mean, there are all kinds
0:20:35 of killers of motivation.
0:20:37 I mean, part of what it, part of it is,
0:20:40 I mean, what you’re talking about in a way is procrastination,
0:20:43 which is a problem of emotional regulation.
0:20:46 They sort of have this in co-ed desire to write a book,
0:20:48 but they don’t wanna deal with the discomfort
0:20:50 of sitting down and writing the first sentence,
0:20:52 because that’s really painful.
0:20:54 And so I actually think that your advice
0:20:56 to just start is right.
0:20:58 I think what you wanna do is you wanna try to change,
0:21:00 you wanna offer people some scaffolding
0:21:01 and some structuring on that.
0:21:06 So if you wanna write a book and is set out
0:21:09 in your calendar today, 15 minutes to start writing,
0:21:11 and then do 15 minutes tomorrow,
0:21:14 and then do 15 in your calendar, 15 minutes the next day,
0:21:15 and then expand that.
0:21:18 And over and over and over, that’s how you write books.
0:21:19 I mean, I’ve written seven books.
0:21:21 You think if I were to have waited
0:21:25 until I was inspired to start writing,
0:21:26 I wouldn’t have written a word.
0:21:29 I’ve written, I was able to, I’m able to write books
0:21:30 because I care about what I’m writing,
0:21:34 but also because I show up in my office at 8.30
0:21:35 and write and do my job.
0:21:38 And then I do it the next day, and the next day,
0:21:38 and the next day.
0:21:40 And I do it even on the days
0:21:41 that I don’t feel like doing it.
0:21:43 I do it on the days,
0:21:44 especially on the days that I don’t feel like doing it.
0:21:47 It’s like the famous Julius Irving quotation.
0:21:50 It’s like being a professional is doing what you love to do
0:21:52 even on the days you don’t feel like doing it.
0:21:53 – Let’s talk about that.
0:21:54 What is your process?
0:21:56 It sounds like you go into an office,
0:21:58 but when you’re writing a book,
0:22:00 that’s kind of, I think what you’re known for,
0:22:02 what’s your process?
0:22:03 You’ve written seven books.
0:22:06 How do you, is there, could you offer anyone some structure
0:22:08 around how you get these things done?
0:22:11 – I look at writing books like a blue collar job.
0:22:13 I think of it as being a bricklayer.
0:22:16 And so what I do in terms of the actual execution
0:22:21 of the book is I’m talking to you from my garage office.
0:22:23 I live 22 steps in that direction.
0:22:24 I’m in Washington DC.
0:22:26 This is my garage office, all right?
0:22:30 Pinking World Headquarters is a converted one car garage.
0:22:32 And at 830 in the morning when I’m writing a book,
0:22:35 I come into this office and I give myself a word count.
0:22:38 It varies depending on where I am in the process,
0:22:41 but I’ll give myself a word count, 600 words, 700 words.
0:22:43 I don’t bring my phone with me in the office.
0:22:45 I don’t open up my email.
0:22:47 I don’t watch ESPN highlights.
0:22:50 I don’t do anything until I hit that number.
0:22:52 And then when I hit that number,
0:22:54 I’m liberated to do other stuff.
0:22:56 But nothing until I hit that number.
0:22:58 Some days I hit that number at 1030, 11.
0:23:00 Other days I don’t hit it ’til late in the afternoon
0:23:02 and those are crappy days.
0:23:04 But I don’t do anything until I hit that number.
0:23:06 And then I do it the next day.
0:23:09 And then I do it the next day.
0:23:12 So if you wanna have process, it’s not anything exalted.
0:23:14 It’s not like I sit in the corner over here
0:23:15 with a smoking jacket on,
0:23:19 listening for God to dictate sentences to me.
0:23:24 No, I show up in my workspace and I do my work.
0:23:27 – Your dad, my understanding is two daughters and a son.
0:23:30 What is your work on motivation and regret?
0:23:33 How does that change your approach to parenting?
0:23:36 – You know, I think I’m a pretty autonomy supportive parent
0:23:39 to use that kind of technical language.
0:23:41 So I try to support my kids autonomy.
0:23:45 So not be too directive about what they have to do.
0:23:49 Now, the underlying fact here is that,
0:23:51 I mean, we have 50 years of evidence
0:23:53 that the effect of parenting on kids,
0:23:55 especially their intellect and their personality
0:23:57 is very small.
0:24:01 So, you know, the unhappy fact of genetic research
0:24:06 for many parents is that identical twins raised apart
0:24:11 are more similar in intelligence and in personality
0:24:14 than fraternal twins raised together.
0:24:17 So, you know, arguably the most important things
0:24:19 that a parent gives a kid, in my view,
0:24:24 especially in America, are genes and a zip code.
0:24:25 If you look at the work of Raj Chetty,
0:24:27 the most important thing a parent gives a kid
0:24:28 are genes and a zip code.
0:24:31 Now, again, when we’re talking only about their outcome,
0:24:34 I mean, you know, I gave my kids genes
0:24:36 and I gave my kids a zip code,
0:24:37 but more important than anything else,
0:24:39 I love them more than anything in the world.
0:24:40 And whether that has an effect on their outcome,
0:24:44 I don’t know, but, you know, it’s what parents do.
0:24:46 But I think a lot of parents are mistaken
0:24:50 about how much control, how much effect they have
0:24:53 over who their kids become.
0:24:54 – And what about being a good partner?
0:24:56 What about being a good husband?
0:24:57 – When it comes to regret,
0:24:59 I think it’s really important to talk to your partner
0:25:02 or even your kids about your own regrets.
0:25:05 That is, a lot of times people sit with their regrets.
0:25:07 They think that somehow they’re the only one
0:25:10 who doesn’t have, who has those regrets.
0:25:13 And we have ample evidence showing
0:25:14 that writing about your regret
0:25:17 or talking about your regret, it can be quite effective
0:25:19 because it’s an unburdening, it’s a sense-making.
0:25:21 And the other mistake that we make,
0:25:23 this is true not only with our kids and with our partners,
0:25:26 but out there in the world is that we mistakenly believe
0:25:29 that when we talk about our mistakes or our scrubs
0:25:32 or our setbacks, that people will think less of us.
0:25:34 When in fact, we have some good evidence
0:25:36 that people think more of us,
0:25:37 that they admire our candor, they admire our courage.
0:25:39 So I think one thing you can do with partners
0:25:41 and with kids is talk about your regret,
0:25:42 but not in a self-ladulating way.
0:25:45 Talk, you know, say, here’s something I regret.
0:25:46 Here’s what I learned from
0:25:47 and here’s what I’m gonna do about it.
0:25:48 And that’s a good way to normalize it
0:25:50 and it’s a good way to treat regret
0:25:54 as facts, as information, as signal, as data.
0:25:55 That’s really the key.
0:25:57 – We have a lot of young people to listen to the pod.
0:26:00 And I look at, you know, I look at your life
0:26:03 and it strikes me doing something really cool,
0:26:06 really interesting, you make a good living.
0:26:08 Can you provide any advice around
0:26:10 in terms of your lived experience
0:26:12 when you were a younger man?
0:26:14 What did you do well?
0:26:15 What did you not do well?
0:26:17 If for someone out there who thinks
0:26:19 I wanna be a great storyteller
0:26:20 and make a really good living at it.
0:26:22 I wanna be Daniel Bank.
0:26:26 Like, what advice would you give to someone
0:26:27 maybe avoiding some of the mistakes
0:26:28 or maybe getting there?
0:26:29 Although you’ve gotten there pretty quickly.
0:26:31 What advice would you have for someone who says
0:26:33 I wanna be the next Daniel Bank?
0:26:36 – I would say get a better goal than that for starters.
0:26:40 Because that is, I don’t know, that is a terrible goal.
0:26:42 Being another Scott Gallagher,
0:26:45 being another ex as a terrible, awful goal.
0:26:47 I would say that with a degree of harshness.
0:26:49 I would say, you don’t wanna be the next blank,
0:26:50 you wanna be the first you.
0:26:53 Beyond that, you know, among the things that I’ve,
0:26:54 some of the things that I did right
0:26:57 and some of the things that I did wrong.
0:26:59 Among the things that I did right
0:27:03 were that at a certain point, young in my life,
0:27:04 relatively young in my life,
0:27:08 I kind of stopped caring about what people thought about me.
0:27:09 And I felt that earlier in my life,
0:27:12 I was fairly concerned about what people thought about.
0:27:12 Did they think I was cool?
0:27:13 Did they think I was smart?
0:27:15 Did they think I was accomplished and so forth?
0:27:19 And then I came to this startling revelation
0:27:20 about what people thought about me.
0:27:23 And that was, they weren’t thinking about me.
0:27:24 Nobody was thinking about me
0:27:26 ’cause everybody’s thinking about themselves.
0:27:28 And so, that was like a great liberating moment.
0:27:29 So don’t think too much.
0:27:31 Don’t think, don’t care about what other people think.
0:27:33 That’s the most important thing.
0:27:36 I’m, you know, the rest of it, I think is pretty standard.
0:27:38 It’s like, you know, if you outwork people
0:27:41 and you take more shots on goal than people,
0:27:44 than most people, you’re gonna be all right.
0:27:47 I mean, if you don’t care what people think,
0:27:48 you outwork them, other people,
0:27:52 and you take more shots on goal, you’re gonna be all right.
0:27:54 I mean, I can’t tell you how exactly it’s gonna happen,
0:27:56 but it’s gonna be all right.
0:27:58 The other thing that I would tell people is,
0:28:02 forget about planning in any kind of detailed way.
0:28:05 One of the things that I suggest that young people do
0:28:07 is that they find, it’s Scott Galloway,
0:28:09 they find someone who’s doing something cool,
0:28:11 you know, someone in their 50s or whatever,
0:28:12 who’s doing something cool,
0:28:14 who’s doing something interesting.
0:28:17 Oh my God, that’d be so great to have a pilot.
0:28:18 Oh, it’d be so great to do that.
0:28:19 And I say, talk to that person
0:28:22 and ask them how they got there.
0:28:26 And I say, I guarantee you that 49 out of 50
0:28:28 interesting accomplished people
0:28:29 answer the question like this.
0:28:32 It’s a long story.
0:28:35 Because it was failure, it was circuitous,
0:28:37 it was unplanned, there was serendipity,
0:28:40 there was good luck, there was bad luck.
0:28:44 And so, you know, if you, again, outwork,
0:28:46 take more shots on goal, don’t care what people think,
0:28:51 be generous, do great work, you’re gonna be fine, truly.
0:28:52 I mean, you really are.
0:28:54 I mean, it’s easy, you know, it’s easy to say
0:28:57 from the vantage point of someone who was 60 years old,
0:28:59 but it’s true.
0:29:02 The one thing that I didn’t do well, Scott,
0:29:06 I think I relied too heavily on myself throughout my life,
0:29:07 especially professionally.
0:29:09 And I never, like if someone says, who’s your mentor?
0:29:12 I said, I don’t have a fricking mentor.
0:29:15 I never had a great, I never had like a mentor.
0:29:17 I know, not because like people weren’t kind
0:29:20 and generous to me, it’s because I was sort of too arrogant
0:29:22 to think that I needed something like that.
0:29:24 And so, one of the things that I could have done
0:29:28 a better job on is finding mentors,
0:29:31 seeking advice from a wide range of people,
0:29:34 doing a better job of working through other people
0:29:36 rather than simply do everything on my own.
0:29:38 That’s one thing that I could get better at
0:29:40 in the next chapter of my life.
0:29:43 – We’ll be right back.
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0:32:28 You’re part of a year-long project
0:32:32 with the Washington Post opinion section called Why Not?
0:32:37 I want to talk about some of the ideas that your readers
0:32:39 responded especially strongly to.
0:32:42 The idea of paying teachers $100,000 a year,
0:32:46 you said that left turns and the busiest intersections
0:32:47 should be banned.
0:32:49 And in another column, you pose the question
0:32:51 or you suggested that on your birthday
0:32:53 you should give other people presents.
0:32:56 So pick any or all of them and say more.
0:32:58 So the column, as you mentioned, is called Why Not?
0:33:01 We take ideas that seem to be out of the realm of possibility
0:33:02 and say, well, why not?
0:33:06 So let’s pay teachers a minimum salary of $100,000 a year.
0:33:07 We’re losing too many good teachers.
0:33:09 Teachers are not respected enough.
0:33:12 So let’s put our money where our mouth is and actually
0:33:15 pay teachers a minimum salary of $100,000 a year.
0:33:18 I got an amazing amount of love and amazing amount of hate
0:33:21 from that column, which is a good sign.
0:33:22 People saying this is the greatest idea ever.
0:33:25 Other people saying, what are you talking about?
0:33:26 No teacher is worth that amount of money.
0:33:27 So that’s one.
0:33:31 The best idea, in my view, is banning left turns
0:33:33 in the busiest intersections in the busiest cities.
0:33:35 And this seems nutty.
0:33:39 But there’s a guy at Penn State, an engineer at Penn State.
0:33:41 He’s done huge numbers of papers on this.
0:33:43 And essentially, in the busiest intersections–
0:33:45 first of all, in the busiest intersections,
0:33:48 the busiest cities, we have incredible numbers
0:33:49 of collisions.
0:33:52 And actually, a shocking number of deaths and injuries
0:33:56 in those particular places, it also
0:34:02 contributes massively to pollution and climate change.
0:34:04 And so if we just ban left turns,
0:34:08 even if it requires some people to make three right turns,
0:34:10 what the evidence shows is that everybody gets
0:34:12 to where they’re going faster.
0:34:14 Because instead of accumulating these–
0:34:16 you’re stuck behind some– I live in Washington, right?
0:34:18 I’m driving up Wisconsin Avenue.
0:34:20 And there’s some schmo in front of me who’s turning left.
0:34:22 And I’m stuck waiting behind him as he
0:34:25 turns left onto Albemarle or wherever, all right?
0:34:28 But if you eliminate that all the way through,
0:34:30 people will get where they’re going faster.
0:34:31 The math on this is inexorable.
0:34:35 And also, we know that UPS, in its tracking software,
0:34:38 generally requires its drivers to make three rights
0:34:40 rather than one left because it saves massively
0:34:41 on time and on fuel.
0:34:43 And then there’s giving presents on your birthday rather
0:34:46 than receiving presents on your birthday.
0:34:48 I think it’s a nice tradition.
0:34:50 I did it on my 60th birthday basically
0:34:55 as a way to bomb my existential crisis attorney, 60.
0:34:58 And so what I did is I found 90-something people in my life
0:35:00 who I was grateful for.
0:35:03 And I created these custom pencils
0:35:05 because I love pencils, as you can see.
0:35:07 See, I’m holding a pencil right here.
0:35:11 And I gave people these set of three pink pencils
0:35:13 with a note telling them that I valued them in my life.
0:35:15 And I was glad to have them in my life.
0:35:17 It was a cool, meaningful thing to do.
0:35:22 And I sort of skated past the existential dread of that day.
0:35:23 I like that.
0:35:24 I just drank a lot.
0:35:28 So they’re not mutually exclusive.
0:35:30 There you go.
0:35:32 Here’s a pencil as a drink stirrer.
0:35:37 You’ve been in the media game mostly through books for a while.
0:35:39 I’m curious, how do you see–
0:35:41 how is the changing of the shifting media landscape?
0:35:43 You’re technically a creator.
0:35:46 I don’t know your presence on social media.
0:35:49 How has the changing media landscape
0:35:52 been good or bad for Daniel Pink?
0:35:55 And how are you adapting what you do based on changes
0:35:57 in the media landscape?
0:35:57 You know what?
0:35:58 It’s a great question, Scott.
0:36:01 And whether it’s good or bad for me, I don’t know.
0:36:05 I mean, it’s harder to contend with because what you have
0:36:07 is you have this kind of perfect storm here,
0:36:10 where the barriers to– forgive the cliche.
0:36:12 But what you have is the barriers to entry
0:36:14 are essentially zero to create stuff.
0:36:19 And then the shelves on which the stuff sits are infinite.
0:36:21 And then you have something, a device,
0:36:23 that allows you access to all that stuff.
0:36:26 And you carry it on your person all waking hours.
0:36:28 That’s a big, fricking, deal.
0:36:31 And that’s very different from when I was–
0:36:34 when I started out 25 years ago.
0:36:37 And so for me, I’m trying to–
0:36:40 I spend very little time on social media.
0:36:42 I spend very little– I just don’t like it.
0:36:43 I don’t find it interesting.
0:36:47 But I think that things like podcasts are extraordinary.
0:36:51 When I promoted my first book, I did a radio satellite tour.
0:36:56 When I promoted my last book, I did 138 podcast interviews.
0:36:59 That’s a different media landscape.
0:37:02 I think that video and TV is actually really, really
0:37:03 interesting right now.
0:37:09 So if I were to– I did a television show on a cable network
0:37:12 eight or nine years ago, I don’t think I’d do that again.
0:37:15 If I were to create a new television show,
0:37:17 I would go straight to YouTube.
0:37:18 And I think that that is–
0:37:21 I think that’s super interesting.
0:37:23 And so is it good for me?
0:37:24 Is it bad for me?
0:37:24 I don’t know.
0:37:26 But it is for me.
0:37:27 And so you have to deal.
0:37:29 But it’s been a big change, I have to say.
0:37:32 And I also think that books have changed, Scott.
0:37:36 I think that books are not–
0:37:38 I’m a writer.
0:37:41 So my muscle memory, my instinct, when I have an idea,
0:37:43 is to write a book.
0:37:46 And I am actually trying to check that impulse,
0:37:50 because that might not be the best vessel, the best expression
0:37:52 of that set of ideas, that set of arguments,
0:37:53 a set of stories.
0:37:55 It might be something in another medium.
0:37:56 So that’s how– it’s some of the ways
0:38:00 that I’m trying to adapt to this new media landscape.
0:38:02 Daniel Pink is the author of various bestselling books
0:38:05 on a range of topics, including “Human Motivation,”
0:38:07 “The Science of Timing,” and “Creativity.”
0:38:10 His books include the “New York Times” bestsellers,
0:38:12 “Power of Regret,” “A Whole New Mind,”
0:38:15 and “When,” as well as the number one “New York Times”
0:38:17 bestseller, “Drive.”
0:38:19 And “To Sell Is Human.”
0:38:22 He currently has a column with The Washington Post called
0:38:22 “Why Not?”
0:38:25 He joins us from– you’re in DC, is that right, Daniel?
0:38:26 Yes, sir.
0:38:28 So this was such a nice moment for me,
0:38:32 because I remember seeing your video and thinking,
0:38:33 I want to be like that guy.
0:38:37 I just want to do cool work that inspires people.
0:38:38 But you’re doing it now, man.
0:38:42 Well, I know, but you and others were a big part of that.
0:38:45 I just very much appreciate your work.
0:38:47 And it’s had an impact on me.
0:38:50 It’s really, quite frankly, it gave me a lot of motivation,
0:38:51 because it was inspiring.
0:38:53 So keep on trucking, my brother.
0:38:54 You’re doing a great job.
0:39:00 This episode was produced by Jennifer Sanchez and Caroline
0:39:01 Shagren.
0:39:03 Drew Burroughs is our technical director.
0:39:04 Thank you for listening to “The Property Pod” from the Box
0:39:05 Media Podcast Network.
0:39:09 We will catch you on Saturday for “No Mercenome Alice,”
0:39:10 as read by George Hahn.
0:39:13 And please follow our Prop G Markets pod,
0:39:15 wherever you get your pods for new episodes
0:39:17 every Monday and Thursday.
0:00:05 Oh my God, true story.
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0:00:48 – Hamburglar, why are you calling?
0:00:49 – Rubble, rubble.
0:00:52 – McDonald’s has a new biggest burger called Big Arch,
0:00:55 made with two 100% Canadian beef patties,
0:00:57 a new delicious sauce and all the McDonald’s flavors
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0:01:01 – Rubble.
0:01:02 – Come on.
0:01:05 Compared to beef burgers on McDonald’s current menu
0:01:07 at participating restaurants in Canada.
0:01:15 – Support for this show comes from Klaviyo.
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0:01:53 – Episode 329, 329 is the area
0:01:56 of belonging to the Hudson Valley region of New York.
0:02:00 In 1929, the Museum of Modern Art, MoMA,
0:02:02 opened a New York City true story.
0:02:04 I posed nude for my art class.
0:02:06 Problem was, they didn’t ask me.
0:02:11 – Go, go, go!
0:02:14 (upbeat music)
0:02:22 – Welcome to the 329th episode of the Prop G Pod,
0:02:23 the Dugs on Vacation.
0:02:26 That’s right, I’m in a field running.
0:02:28 So in place of our regular schedule programming,
0:02:30 we’re sharing a conversation with Daniel Pink,
0:02:32 the author of various bestselling books,
0:02:35 including The Power of Regret and When,
0:02:37 as well as the number one New York Times bestseller,
0:02:39 Drive, and To Sell Is Human.
0:02:42 We discuss with Daniel Regret, human motivation,
0:02:45 and his Washington Post column, Why Not?
0:02:48 He’s a great storyteller, interesting concepts.
0:02:50 It’s kind of, it’s like if Ted exploded
0:02:53 or if Ted was personified, I think it’d be Daniel Pink.
0:02:58 Anyways, with that, here’s our conversation with Daniel Pink.
0:02:59 – So let’s press right into it.
0:03:03 You wrote a book about regret, The Power of Regret.
0:03:05 You said that the advice you give us
0:03:08 to stay positive, look ahead, and never dwell on the past,
0:03:10 which is harmful, why?
0:03:13 – Because we have completely misunderstood
0:03:15 this emotion of regret.
0:03:16 We’ve been told, as you mentioned,
0:03:19 that we should be positive all the time, never be negative,
0:03:20 we should look forward, not back,
0:03:22 and that’s bad advice, it goes against the science.
0:03:24 It will, what the science tells us is that
0:03:29 if we don’t ignore regrets, and don’t wallow in our regrets,
0:03:32 but confront them, think about them, look them in the eye,
0:03:33 it’s a transformative emotion.
0:03:35 It helps us in a variety of ways.
0:03:37 – Well, that makes sense.
0:03:41 I don’t, my struggle is, I make mistakes every day,
0:03:44 and I can’t forget myself, and I don’t know if that’s regret,
0:03:47 but where does regret become unhealthy
0:03:48 in a source of depression
0:03:49 where you can never get out of the past?
0:03:51 – Well, I mean, there’s a big difference,
0:03:52 so when it’s a source of depression,
0:03:53 that’s a medical issue.
0:03:56 What I’m writing about here, I’m not a doctor,
0:04:00 so I can’t opine on the medical dimensions of it.
0:04:01 Essentially what we should be doing,
0:04:03 and I think there is some relation,
0:04:06 and how the scientific ways to deal with regret
0:04:10 are actually very similar to cognitive behavior therapy,
0:04:13 which is essentially not looking at your emotions
0:04:17 as who you are, but as something that is going on,
0:04:18 as something that is going on in your life,
0:04:20 that is to examine them,
0:04:22 and so when you’re talking about reckoning with regret,
0:04:26 one of the first steps is something called self-compassion,
0:04:29 and self-compassion is in some ways a triangulation
0:04:32 between self-esteem and self-flagellation.
0:04:35 We tend to believe that lacerating self-criticism
0:04:38 is the way to get us to perform better,
0:04:39 and there’s no evidence of that.
0:04:41 There’s also very little evidence
0:04:43 that kind of constantly patting yourself on the back
0:04:44 and boosting your self-esteem is good.
0:04:47 What seems to be good is the work that Kristin Neff
0:04:49 has done at University of Texas on self-compassion,
0:04:51 which is essentially treating yourself with kindness
0:04:55 rather than contempt, recognizing that mistakes,
0:04:57 setbacks, or regrets are part of life,
0:04:59 and then using that as a stepstone
0:05:01 to thinking about your regrets.
0:05:04 One of the things we see in the research on self-compassion
0:05:06 is that people have a very, many people,
0:05:07 particularly high achieving people,
0:05:09 have a very difficult, they talk to themselves
0:05:11 in ways they would never talk to anybody else.
0:05:14 So if I were probably to harness your self-talk, all right,
0:05:17 we were to use those headphones you’re wearing now
0:05:20 and create this magical thing that allows me
0:05:22 to hear what you’re saying to yourself,
0:05:24 especially in the face of a mistake.
0:05:26 It would probably be brutal.
0:05:27 It would probably be lacerating.
0:05:29 It would probably be cruel.
0:05:31 And chances are you wouldn’t say that to somebody else.
0:05:33 And so what the research on self-compassion tells us
0:05:35 is don’t treat yourself better than anybody else,
0:05:37 but don’t treat yourself worse than anybody else
0:05:39 because it’s not effective.
0:05:41 – So all this just makes all sorts of sense, right?
0:05:44 I’ve always said that one of my things,
0:05:47 it’s like three of my last five new year’s resolutions
0:05:49 have been to forgive myself.
0:05:52 What is the actual cognitive behavior of the exercise
0:05:54 is to get better than this?
0:05:56 You logically, it is impossible rationally,
0:05:58 logically not to agree with you.
0:06:00 What are the actual behavioral modification techniques
0:06:01 for getting there?
0:06:02 – I’ll give you an example, okay?
0:06:04 ‘Cause this goes to some of the other ways
0:06:06 that we deal with regret.
0:06:09 What seems to be a very effective technique
0:06:11 on a whole range of things
0:06:13 is what’s known as self-distancing.
0:06:17 There’s a psychological phenomenon known as
0:06:20 Solomon’s paradox, which is that we human beings
0:06:21 are pretty good at solving problems,
0:06:23 but we tend to stink at solving our own problems
0:06:25 ’cause we’re too close to them.
0:06:28 So a way to be more compassionate to yourself
0:06:30 is to say what you would say to someone
0:06:33 who is telling you what you’re telling yourself.
0:06:35 So if you had a friend who was telling themselves,
0:06:37 you’re an idiot, you’re an imposter,
0:06:39 you don’t deserve to be here, you’re worthless.
0:06:41 What would you say to that person?
0:06:45 I mean, what would you say to that person?
0:06:47 – You’d say for God’s sake, stop it
0:06:51 and list off some positive metrics.
0:06:53 – That’s the kind of thing they can say to yourself.
0:06:55 There are other great self-distancing techniques.
0:06:57 There’s one of the best decision-making
0:07:01 self-distancing techniques is when you’re stuck on a decision
0:07:04 is to ask yourself, what would I tell my best friend to do?
0:07:08 That’s a great, very specific, practical tip.
0:07:10 In a business setting, you can use
0:07:11 the old Andy Grove technique,
0:07:14 where he said when he faced a tough decision
0:07:16 back when he was the CEO of Intel,
0:07:19 he would ask himself, if I were replaced tomorrow,
0:07:21 what would my successor do?
0:07:22 And he almost always knew.
0:07:25 And so the idea here in the research on self-distancing
0:07:29 is that when we tackle our own problems, our own issues,
0:07:31 we tend to look at them like scuba divers.
0:07:33 And what we should be doing is looking at them
0:07:36 like oceanographers, getting above them.
0:07:37 And there are ways to do that.
0:07:39 There’s research showing that actually
0:07:41 you can improve your performance.
0:07:43 If you want to talk about self-talk,
0:07:46 you can improve your performance by talking to yourself
0:07:49 in the second person or the third person.
0:07:50 Instead of asking yourself, what should I do?
0:07:51 Say, what should you do?
0:07:53 Or better, what should Scott do?
0:07:55 – In an effort to understand the difference between
0:07:57 unproductive and productive regret,
0:08:00 have you been able to reverse engineer,
0:08:01 productive or unproductive regret
0:08:04 of any sort of identity or experience, gender,
0:08:07 the way you were raised, your approach to life?
0:08:08 – Not really.
0:08:11 I can answer that question in two different ways.
0:08:12 Number one is that for this book,
0:08:14 what I did is I did two things.
0:08:17 I did the largest public opinion survey ever conducted
0:08:19 on American attitudes about regret.
0:08:23 Trying to identify whether there were demographic differences
0:08:26 in how people experience regret or what they regretted.
0:08:29 So looking at everything from race, from education level,
0:08:32 even things like introversion, extraversion,
0:08:34 belief in God, et cetera, et cetera.
0:08:36 The one demographic difference that came out
0:08:41 in this public opinion research had to do with age.
0:08:45 And what it showed is that people in their 20s
0:08:49 had about equal numbers of regrets of action and inaction.
0:08:51 That is in the architecture of regret.
0:08:52 You can regret something you did,
0:08:54 you can regret something you didn’t do.
0:08:56 People in their 20s had roughly equal numbers
0:08:58 of regrets of action and inaction.
0:09:02 But as people age, the inaction regrets take over.
0:09:06 When you get to be in your 40s, certainly 50s, 60s, 70s,
0:09:08 inaction regrets, outnumber action regrets
0:09:10 by three and a half, four to one.
0:09:13 So that’s a big difference in the content
0:09:15 of what people regret.
0:09:16 But when you look at things like,
0:09:18 do men and women have different regrets?
0:09:21 There’s some evidence, there’s modest evidence
0:09:22 showing some differences.
0:09:25 In my research, I saw a tiny little bit,
0:09:26 not that much on race.
0:09:28 A little bit on education level.
0:09:33 I found that people with large amounts of formal education
0:09:35 actually had more career regrets
0:09:37 than people with less formal education,
0:09:39 which sort of is superficially surprising,
0:09:41 but perfectly understandable
0:09:43 because if you have more education,
0:09:44 you have more opportunities,
0:09:46 which means you have more opportunities foregone.
0:09:48 And so the demographic differences
0:09:51 in what people regret were not massive.
0:09:54 Now, I also did a piece of qualitative research
0:09:56 where we collected regrets from 26,000 people
0:09:58 around the world.
0:10:00 And there I found that around the world,
0:10:03 people seem to have the same four core regrets.
0:10:07 They go deeper than simply a regret about a career,
0:10:09 a regret about romance, a regret about health,
0:10:11 a regret about finance,
0:10:15 go deeper than those surface domains of life.
0:10:16 – Are these the four you’re talking about in your book,
0:10:18 “Foundation, Boldness, Moral, and Connection?”
0:10:19 Can you say more about those?
0:10:20 – Sure, sure.
0:10:23 So again, we have this pretty remarkable database
0:10:27 of regrets from 134 countries.
0:10:30 The survey was up in Chinese, it was up in Spanish,
0:10:31 and obviously it was up in English.
0:10:34 And the four regrets that people around the world
0:10:37 seem to have are exactly, as you say, foundation regrets.
0:10:40 Small decisions people make early in life
0:10:42 that accumulate to terrible consequences later in life.
0:10:46 I spent too much and saved too little, and now I’m broke.
0:10:47 I didn’t exercise or eat right,
0:10:49 and now I’m profoundly out of shape.
0:10:51 So that’s a foundation regret.
0:10:54 Boldness regret is a very big category of regret.
0:10:56 You’re at a juncture in your life and you have two choices.
0:10:59 You can play it safe, or you can take the chance.
0:11:03 And overwhelmingly, when people don’t take the chance,
0:11:04 they regret it.
0:11:04 Now, that’s not true for everybody.
0:11:06 There are plenty of people who take a chance
0:11:08 and it goes south on them and they regret it.
0:11:12 But they are massively outnumbered
0:11:14 by people who didn’t take the chance.
0:11:16 And again, what’s interesting here
0:11:18 is that it doesn’t matter the domain.
0:11:20 So I have hundreds of people who regret
0:11:22 not asking somebody out on a date.
0:11:24 Hundreds of people who regret not traveling,
0:11:26 not starting a business, not doing something
0:11:28 that required a little bit more boldness
0:11:31 than they were willing to offer up at the time.
0:11:34 Third category, moral regrets.
0:11:35 Another time when you have a choice.
0:11:38 I can take the low road, I can take the high road.
0:11:40 I can do the right thing, I can do the wrong thing.
0:11:43 And overwhelmingly, most people most of the time
0:11:46 regret doing the wrong thing.
0:11:49 Because most people are decent
0:11:50 and most people want to be decent
0:11:53 and most people feel crappy when they’re not decent.
0:11:54 And the final one are connection regrets
0:11:56 which are about relationships
0:11:57 and not only romantic relationships
0:12:01 but the full spectrum of relationships in our lives.
0:12:04 So you’ve got a relationship that was intact
0:12:05 or should have been intact.
0:12:06 Say with a friend or with a sibling
0:12:10 or with a parent or whoever and it comes apart.
0:12:13 And in many cases, the way these relationships come apart
0:12:16 is unexciting and undramatic.
0:12:18 They just kind of drift apart.
0:12:20 Somebody wants to reach out.
0:12:23 They don’t because they think it’s gonna be awkward
0:12:26 and they think the other side’s not gonna care.
0:12:27 So it drifts apart even more.
0:12:29 And so those are the four regrets.
0:12:31 Foundation regrets have only had done the work.
0:12:33 Boldness regrets have only had taken the chance.
0:12:36 Moral regrets have only had done the right thing.
0:12:38 And connection regrets, if only had reached out.
0:12:41 And it’s remarkable consistency all over the world
0:12:44 in the way people talk about these regrets
0:12:46 these regrets and the content of their regrets.
0:12:48 – I love this type of research.
0:12:49 In addition to yours, I read a lot of
0:12:51 what my colleague at NYU, Adam Alter,
0:12:54 has written about palliative care and end of life.
0:12:55 And it foots to everything you’re saying.
0:12:58 The only thing we haven’t talked about
0:12:59 and it’s sort of a mix of all of them
0:13:03 or an alchemy of all of them is that people,
0:13:05 the number one regret I’ve read
0:13:07 is that people wish they’d been less hard on themselves.
0:13:09 They’d wish they’d forgiven themselves.
0:13:11 And that is one of my favorite sayings
0:13:13 that’s gotten me through a lot of hard times
0:13:15 is nothing is ever as good or as bad as it seems.
0:13:17 And that when you look back on your life,
0:13:20 you won’t be as upset about the thing that happened to you.
0:13:22 You’ll be upset about how you responded to it.
0:13:23 Your thoughts?
0:13:25 – I think that’s generally right.
0:13:28 I mean, that is essentially the underlying philosophy
0:13:31 of the underlying theory of cognitive behavior therapy,
0:13:32 which is basically how you respond to it.
0:13:36 It’s also essentially an element of stoic philosophy,
0:13:39 which has become incredibly popular now.
0:13:42 And so, I mean, the other thing, I mean, also, you know,
0:13:44 I think what’s interesting about these regrets
0:13:47 is interviewing people about their regrets
0:13:50 is that when people tell you what they regret the most,
0:13:51 they’re telling you what they value the most.
0:13:54 And so, what we know from these four regrets
0:13:56 is that people value stability.
0:13:58 They value growth and learning
0:14:00 and not wasting their time on the planet.
0:14:02 They value goodness and they value love.
0:14:04 And I think that’s very consistent
0:14:07 with some of the other research we know
0:14:10 on that we have on human flourishing,
0:14:12 part of which tells us that ultimately
0:14:17 at the end of our lives, what’s gonna matter to us
0:14:20 is did we have people in our lives who loved us
0:14:21 and did we love other people?
0:14:23 Period, full stop.
0:14:24 I mean, if you look at the research,
0:14:26 if you look at the grant study at Harvard,
0:14:30 this lengthy, multi-decade, longitudinal study
0:14:33 of human flourishing, that’s what it shows.
0:14:35 And I think what’s interesting about this research
0:14:39 on regret and in general is also to your point, Scott,
0:14:42 is most decisions we make in a given day
0:14:45 don’t really matter all that much.
0:14:46 And I think this is why it’s important
0:14:48 to think about our regrets.
0:14:50 You probably made a hundred decisions yesterday
0:14:53 and it’s today and you don’t remember most of them.
0:14:56 But there are decisions and indecisions that you made,
0:14:58 that we made, human beings made,
0:15:02 each of us a year ago, five years ago, 10 years ago,
0:15:04 20 years ago, that not only do we remember them
0:15:07 when we don’t remember most decisions we made yesterday,
0:15:09 not only to remember a decision or indecision
0:15:12 from 20 years ago, but it bugs us.
0:15:13 That’s a very strong signal.
0:15:14 That’s telling us something.
0:15:15 And so we have a choice.
0:15:17 We can either plug our ears and say,
0:15:19 nope, I’m gonna be positive all the time.
0:15:22 Or we can say, oh my God, I’m the worst person in the world
0:15:23 and let it topple us.
0:15:25 Or we can say, huh, that’s interesting.
0:15:27 That’s a pretty strong signal.
0:15:28 Let me listen to this signal.
0:15:30 Let me use it as data.
0:15:32 And when we do that, there’s a lot of evidence
0:15:33 showing that regret can help us
0:15:35 on a whole range of different things.
0:15:37 It can help us become better negotiators,
0:15:40 better problem solvers, avoid cognitive biases,
0:15:43 strategize better, find more meaning in life.
0:15:46 We’ll be right back.
0:15:51 Support for PropT comes from Mint Mobile.
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0:16:54 Support for ProfG comes from Masterclass.
0:16:57 All right, I need all the procrastinators to listen up.
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0:17:54 (bell rings)
0:17:56 – Hamburglar, why are you calling?
0:17:57 – Rubble, rubble.
0:18:00 – McDonald’s has a new biggest burger called Big Arch,
0:18:03 made with two 100% Canadian beef patties,
0:18:04 a new delicious sauce,
0:18:06 and all the McDonald’s flavors you love,
0:18:08 and wait, you want me to help you get it?
0:18:09 – Rubble.
0:18:10 – Come on.
0:18:13 Compared to beef burgers on McDonald’s current menu
0:18:15 at participating restaurants in Canada.
0:18:22 – I think of you as the motivation guy.
0:18:24 I first came across your work.
0:18:26 I was excited that you were great to come on the pod
0:18:29 ’cause I remember literally 10 or 15 years ago,
0:18:33 I stumbled upon this video where you used an animation
0:18:36 to kind of brilliantly and succinctly,
0:18:39 I’m sure you know the video, it went everywhere.
0:18:42 And I feel like that was sort of an inflection point for you.
0:18:45 You became kind of owned motivation.
0:18:47 Your book drive the surprising truth
0:18:49 about what motivates us.
0:18:51 I loved the way you broke it down,
0:18:54 autonomy, mastery, and purpose.
0:18:56 Can you say more about those three pillars
0:18:58 of the motivation stool?
0:19:01 – Sure, I mean, what we know about especially motivation
0:19:05 at work is that we sort of have this head fake going on.
0:19:07 We think that a certain kind of reward,
0:19:09 what I call if then rewards,
0:19:11 are the secret to effective motivation.
0:19:12 If you do this, then you get that.
0:19:14 If you do this, then you get that.
0:19:16 And we have now 60 years of research showing us
0:19:20 that if then rewards are pretty good for simple tasks
0:19:21 with short time horizons,
0:19:24 but not that effective for complex tasks with long horizons.
0:19:26 And that for complex tasks with long horizons,
0:19:28 what we wanna do in the workplace especially
0:19:29 is pay people well.
0:19:32 And then as you say, offer them those three things.
0:19:34 Autonomy, mastery, and purpose.
0:19:37 So autonomy is, do you have some control
0:19:39 over what you do, how you do it,
0:19:41 when you do it, where you do it?
0:19:42 The mastery is, are you getting better
0:19:43 at something that matters?
0:19:46 Are you making progress in something meaningful?
0:19:48 And purpose is, do you know why you’re doing it?
0:19:50 Are you making a difference in the world?
0:19:53 Are you making a contribution in your own little terrain?
0:19:54 And those are the things
0:19:57 that actually lead to enduring motivation.
0:20:00 These if-then rewards are like,
0:20:02 it’s like, you can keep shoveling coal into the furnace,
0:20:04 but it burns up pretty quickly.
0:20:07 And but these, if these autonomy, mastery, and purpose,
0:20:11 which form sort of the trifecta of intrinsic motivation,
0:20:15 lead to enduring high performance.
0:20:18 – And what are the enemies of motivation?
0:20:20 I was default to the word now.
0:20:21 You wanna write a book, just start.
0:20:23 So many people come up to me.
0:20:25 I wanna start a podcast.
0:20:25 I wanna write a book.
0:20:27 I’m like, okay, start.
0:20:30 Other than that, I don’t know what advice to give you.
0:20:32 What are the killers of motivation?
0:20:34 – Well, I mean, there are all kinds
0:20:35 of killers of motivation.
0:20:37 I mean, part of what it, part of it is,
0:20:40 I mean, what you’re talking about in a way is procrastination,
0:20:43 which is a problem of emotional regulation.
0:20:46 They sort of have this in co-ed desire to write a book,
0:20:48 but they don’t wanna deal with the discomfort
0:20:50 of sitting down and writing the first sentence,
0:20:52 because that’s really painful.
0:20:54 And so I actually think that your advice
0:20:56 to just start is right.
0:20:58 I think what you wanna do is you wanna try to change,
0:21:00 you wanna offer people some scaffolding
0:21:01 and some structuring on that.
0:21:06 So if you wanna write a book and is set out
0:21:09 in your calendar today, 15 minutes to start writing,
0:21:11 and then do 15 minutes tomorrow,
0:21:14 and then do 15 in your calendar, 15 minutes the next day,
0:21:15 and then expand that.
0:21:18 And over and over and over, that’s how you write books.
0:21:19 I mean, I’ve written seven books.
0:21:21 You think if I were to have waited
0:21:25 until I was inspired to start writing,
0:21:26 I wouldn’t have written a word.
0:21:29 I’ve written, I was able to, I’m able to write books
0:21:30 because I care about what I’m writing,
0:21:34 but also because I show up in my office at 8.30
0:21:35 and write and do my job.
0:21:38 And then I do it the next day, and the next day,
0:21:38 and the next day.
0:21:40 And I do it even on the days
0:21:41 that I don’t feel like doing it.
0:21:43 I do it on the days,
0:21:44 especially on the days that I don’t feel like doing it.
0:21:47 It’s like the famous Julius Irving quotation.
0:21:50 It’s like being a professional is doing what you love to do
0:21:52 even on the days you don’t feel like doing it.
0:21:53 – Let’s talk about that.
0:21:54 What is your process?
0:21:56 It sounds like you go into an office,
0:21:58 but when you’re writing a book,
0:22:00 that’s kind of, I think what you’re known for,
0:22:02 what’s your process?
0:22:03 You’ve written seven books.
0:22:06 How do you, is there, could you offer anyone some structure
0:22:08 around how you get these things done?
0:22:11 – I look at writing books like a blue collar job.
0:22:13 I think of it as being a bricklayer.
0:22:16 And so what I do in terms of the actual execution
0:22:21 of the book is I’m talking to you from my garage office.
0:22:23 I live 22 steps in that direction.
0:22:24 I’m in Washington DC.
0:22:26 This is my garage office, all right?
0:22:30 Pinking World Headquarters is a converted one car garage.
0:22:32 And at 830 in the morning when I’m writing a book,
0:22:35 I come into this office and I give myself a word count.
0:22:38 It varies depending on where I am in the process,
0:22:41 but I’ll give myself a word count, 600 words, 700 words.
0:22:43 I don’t bring my phone with me in the office.
0:22:45 I don’t open up my email.
0:22:47 I don’t watch ESPN highlights.
0:22:50 I don’t do anything until I hit that number.
0:22:52 And then when I hit that number,
0:22:54 I’m liberated to do other stuff.
0:22:56 But nothing until I hit that number.
0:22:58 Some days I hit that number at 1030, 11.
0:23:00 Other days I don’t hit it ’til late in the afternoon
0:23:02 and those are crappy days.
0:23:04 But I don’t do anything until I hit that number.
0:23:06 And then I do it the next day.
0:23:09 And then I do it the next day.
0:23:12 So if you wanna have process, it’s not anything exalted.
0:23:14 It’s not like I sit in the corner over here
0:23:15 with a smoking jacket on,
0:23:19 listening for God to dictate sentences to me.
0:23:24 No, I show up in my workspace and I do my work.
0:23:27 – Your dad, my understanding is two daughters and a son.
0:23:30 What is your work on motivation and regret?
0:23:33 How does that change your approach to parenting?
0:23:36 – You know, I think I’m a pretty autonomy supportive parent
0:23:39 to use that kind of technical language.
0:23:41 So I try to support my kids autonomy.
0:23:45 So not be too directive about what they have to do.
0:23:49 Now, the underlying fact here is that,
0:23:51 I mean, we have 50 years of evidence
0:23:53 that the effect of parenting on kids,
0:23:55 especially their intellect and their personality
0:23:57 is very small.
0:24:01 So, you know, the unhappy fact of genetic research
0:24:06 for many parents is that identical twins raised apart
0:24:11 are more similar in intelligence and in personality
0:24:14 than fraternal twins raised together.
0:24:17 So, you know, arguably the most important things
0:24:19 that a parent gives a kid, in my view,
0:24:24 especially in America, are genes and a zip code.
0:24:25 If you look at the work of Raj Chetty,
0:24:27 the most important thing a parent gives a kid
0:24:28 are genes and a zip code.
0:24:31 Now, again, when we’re talking only about their outcome,
0:24:34 I mean, you know, I gave my kids genes
0:24:36 and I gave my kids a zip code,
0:24:37 but more important than anything else,
0:24:39 I love them more than anything in the world.
0:24:40 And whether that has an effect on their outcome,
0:24:44 I don’t know, but, you know, it’s what parents do.
0:24:46 But I think a lot of parents are mistaken
0:24:50 about how much control, how much effect they have
0:24:53 over who their kids become.
0:24:54 – And what about being a good partner?
0:24:56 What about being a good husband?
0:24:57 – When it comes to regret,
0:24:59 I think it’s really important to talk to your partner
0:25:02 or even your kids about your own regrets.
0:25:05 That is, a lot of times people sit with their regrets.
0:25:07 They think that somehow they’re the only one
0:25:10 who doesn’t have, who has those regrets.
0:25:13 And we have ample evidence showing
0:25:14 that writing about your regret
0:25:17 or talking about your regret, it can be quite effective
0:25:19 because it’s an unburdening, it’s a sense-making.
0:25:21 And the other mistake that we make,
0:25:23 this is true not only with our kids and with our partners,
0:25:26 but out there in the world is that we mistakenly believe
0:25:29 that when we talk about our mistakes or our scrubs
0:25:32 or our setbacks, that people will think less of us.
0:25:34 When in fact, we have some good evidence
0:25:36 that people think more of us,
0:25:37 that they admire our candor, they admire our courage.
0:25:39 So I think one thing you can do with partners
0:25:41 and with kids is talk about your regret,
0:25:42 but not in a self-ladulating way.
0:25:45 Talk, you know, say, here’s something I regret.
0:25:46 Here’s what I learned from
0:25:47 and here’s what I’m gonna do about it.
0:25:48 And that’s a good way to normalize it
0:25:50 and it’s a good way to treat regret
0:25:54 as facts, as information, as signal, as data.
0:25:55 That’s really the key.
0:25:57 – We have a lot of young people to listen to the pod.
0:26:00 And I look at, you know, I look at your life
0:26:03 and it strikes me doing something really cool,
0:26:06 really interesting, you make a good living.
0:26:08 Can you provide any advice around
0:26:10 in terms of your lived experience
0:26:12 when you were a younger man?
0:26:14 What did you do well?
0:26:15 What did you not do well?
0:26:17 If for someone out there who thinks
0:26:19 I wanna be a great storyteller
0:26:20 and make a really good living at it.
0:26:22 I wanna be Daniel Bank.
0:26:26 Like, what advice would you give to someone
0:26:27 maybe avoiding some of the mistakes
0:26:28 or maybe getting there?
0:26:29 Although you’ve gotten there pretty quickly.
0:26:31 What advice would you have for someone who says
0:26:33 I wanna be the next Daniel Bank?
0:26:36 – I would say get a better goal than that for starters.
0:26:40 Because that is, I don’t know, that is a terrible goal.
0:26:42 Being another Scott Gallagher,
0:26:45 being another ex as a terrible, awful goal.
0:26:47 I would say that with a degree of harshness.
0:26:49 I would say, you don’t wanna be the next blank,
0:26:50 you wanna be the first you.
0:26:53 Beyond that, you know, among the things that I’ve,
0:26:54 some of the things that I did right
0:26:57 and some of the things that I did wrong.
0:26:59 Among the things that I did right
0:27:03 were that at a certain point, young in my life,
0:27:04 relatively young in my life,
0:27:08 I kind of stopped caring about what people thought about me.
0:27:09 And I felt that earlier in my life,
0:27:12 I was fairly concerned about what people thought about.
0:27:12 Did they think I was cool?
0:27:13 Did they think I was smart?
0:27:15 Did they think I was accomplished and so forth?
0:27:19 And then I came to this startling revelation
0:27:20 about what people thought about me.
0:27:23 And that was, they weren’t thinking about me.
0:27:24 Nobody was thinking about me
0:27:26 ’cause everybody’s thinking about themselves.
0:27:28 And so, that was like a great liberating moment.
0:27:29 So don’t think too much.
0:27:31 Don’t think, don’t care about what other people think.
0:27:33 That’s the most important thing.
0:27:36 I’m, you know, the rest of it, I think is pretty standard.
0:27:38 It’s like, you know, if you outwork people
0:27:41 and you take more shots on goal than people,
0:27:44 than most people, you’re gonna be all right.
0:27:47 I mean, if you don’t care what people think,
0:27:48 you outwork them, other people,
0:27:52 and you take more shots on goal, you’re gonna be all right.
0:27:54 I mean, I can’t tell you how exactly it’s gonna happen,
0:27:56 but it’s gonna be all right.
0:27:58 The other thing that I would tell people is,
0:28:02 forget about planning in any kind of detailed way.
0:28:05 One of the things that I suggest that young people do
0:28:07 is that they find, it’s Scott Galloway,
0:28:09 they find someone who’s doing something cool,
0:28:11 you know, someone in their 50s or whatever,
0:28:12 who’s doing something cool,
0:28:14 who’s doing something interesting.
0:28:17 Oh my God, that’d be so great to have a pilot.
0:28:18 Oh, it’d be so great to do that.
0:28:19 And I say, talk to that person
0:28:22 and ask them how they got there.
0:28:26 And I say, I guarantee you that 49 out of 50
0:28:28 interesting accomplished people
0:28:29 answer the question like this.
0:28:32 It’s a long story.
0:28:35 Because it was failure, it was circuitous,
0:28:37 it was unplanned, there was serendipity,
0:28:40 there was good luck, there was bad luck.
0:28:44 And so, you know, if you, again, outwork,
0:28:46 take more shots on goal, don’t care what people think,
0:28:51 be generous, do great work, you’re gonna be fine, truly.
0:28:52 I mean, you really are.
0:28:54 I mean, it’s easy, you know, it’s easy to say
0:28:57 from the vantage point of someone who was 60 years old,
0:28:59 but it’s true.
0:29:02 The one thing that I didn’t do well, Scott,
0:29:06 I think I relied too heavily on myself throughout my life,
0:29:07 especially professionally.
0:29:09 And I never, like if someone says, who’s your mentor?
0:29:12 I said, I don’t have a fricking mentor.
0:29:15 I never had a great, I never had like a mentor.
0:29:17 I know, not because like people weren’t kind
0:29:20 and generous to me, it’s because I was sort of too arrogant
0:29:22 to think that I needed something like that.
0:29:24 And so, one of the things that I could have done
0:29:28 a better job on is finding mentors,
0:29:31 seeking advice from a wide range of people,
0:29:34 doing a better job of working through other people
0:29:36 rather than simply do everything on my own.
0:29:38 That’s one thing that I could get better at
0:29:40 in the next chapter of my life.
0:29:43 – We’ll be right back.
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0:30:07 Add your team to your Uber account today.
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0:32:28 You’re part of a year-long project
0:32:32 with the Washington Post opinion section called Why Not?
0:32:37 I want to talk about some of the ideas that your readers
0:32:39 responded especially strongly to.
0:32:42 The idea of paying teachers $100,000 a year,
0:32:46 you said that left turns and the busiest intersections
0:32:47 should be banned.
0:32:49 And in another column, you pose the question
0:32:51 or you suggested that on your birthday
0:32:53 you should give other people presents.
0:32:56 So pick any or all of them and say more.
0:32:58 So the column, as you mentioned, is called Why Not?
0:33:01 We take ideas that seem to be out of the realm of possibility
0:33:02 and say, well, why not?
0:33:06 So let’s pay teachers a minimum salary of $100,000 a year.
0:33:07 We’re losing too many good teachers.
0:33:09 Teachers are not respected enough.
0:33:12 So let’s put our money where our mouth is and actually
0:33:15 pay teachers a minimum salary of $100,000 a year.
0:33:18 I got an amazing amount of love and amazing amount of hate
0:33:21 from that column, which is a good sign.
0:33:22 People saying this is the greatest idea ever.
0:33:25 Other people saying, what are you talking about?
0:33:26 No teacher is worth that amount of money.
0:33:27 So that’s one.
0:33:31 The best idea, in my view, is banning left turns
0:33:33 in the busiest intersections in the busiest cities.
0:33:35 And this seems nutty.
0:33:39 But there’s a guy at Penn State, an engineer at Penn State.
0:33:41 He’s done huge numbers of papers on this.
0:33:43 And essentially, in the busiest intersections–
0:33:45 first of all, in the busiest intersections,
0:33:48 the busiest cities, we have incredible numbers
0:33:49 of collisions.
0:33:52 And actually, a shocking number of deaths and injuries
0:33:56 in those particular places, it also
0:34:02 contributes massively to pollution and climate change.
0:34:04 And so if we just ban left turns,
0:34:08 even if it requires some people to make three right turns,
0:34:10 what the evidence shows is that everybody gets
0:34:12 to where they’re going faster.
0:34:14 Because instead of accumulating these–
0:34:16 you’re stuck behind some– I live in Washington, right?
0:34:18 I’m driving up Wisconsin Avenue.
0:34:20 And there’s some schmo in front of me who’s turning left.
0:34:22 And I’m stuck waiting behind him as he
0:34:25 turns left onto Albemarle or wherever, all right?
0:34:28 But if you eliminate that all the way through,
0:34:30 people will get where they’re going faster.
0:34:31 The math on this is inexorable.
0:34:35 And also, we know that UPS, in its tracking software,
0:34:38 generally requires its drivers to make three rights
0:34:40 rather than one left because it saves massively
0:34:41 on time and on fuel.
0:34:43 And then there’s giving presents on your birthday rather
0:34:46 than receiving presents on your birthday.
0:34:48 I think it’s a nice tradition.
0:34:50 I did it on my 60th birthday basically
0:34:55 as a way to bomb my existential crisis attorney, 60.
0:34:58 And so what I did is I found 90-something people in my life
0:35:00 who I was grateful for.
0:35:03 And I created these custom pencils
0:35:05 because I love pencils, as you can see.
0:35:07 See, I’m holding a pencil right here.
0:35:11 And I gave people these set of three pink pencils
0:35:13 with a note telling them that I valued them in my life.
0:35:15 And I was glad to have them in my life.
0:35:17 It was a cool, meaningful thing to do.
0:35:22 And I sort of skated past the existential dread of that day.
0:35:23 I like that.
0:35:24 I just drank a lot.
0:35:28 So they’re not mutually exclusive.
0:35:30 There you go.
0:35:32 Here’s a pencil as a drink stirrer.
0:35:37 You’ve been in the media game mostly through books for a while.
0:35:39 I’m curious, how do you see–
0:35:41 how is the changing of the shifting media landscape?
0:35:43 You’re technically a creator.
0:35:46 I don’t know your presence on social media.
0:35:49 How has the changing media landscape
0:35:52 been good or bad for Daniel Pink?
0:35:55 And how are you adapting what you do based on changes
0:35:57 in the media landscape?
0:35:57 You know what?
0:35:58 It’s a great question, Scott.
0:36:01 And whether it’s good or bad for me, I don’t know.
0:36:05 I mean, it’s harder to contend with because what you have
0:36:07 is you have this kind of perfect storm here,
0:36:10 where the barriers to– forgive the cliche.
0:36:12 But what you have is the barriers to entry
0:36:14 are essentially zero to create stuff.
0:36:19 And then the shelves on which the stuff sits are infinite.
0:36:21 And then you have something, a device,
0:36:23 that allows you access to all that stuff.
0:36:26 And you carry it on your person all waking hours.
0:36:28 That’s a big, fricking, deal.
0:36:31 And that’s very different from when I was–
0:36:34 when I started out 25 years ago.
0:36:37 And so for me, I’m trying to–
0:36:40 I spend very little time on social media.
0:36:42 I spend very little– I just don’t like it.
0:36:43 I don’t find it interesting.
0:36:47 But I think that things like podcasts are extraordinary.
0:36:51 When I promoted my first book, I did a radio satellite tour.
0:36:56 When I promoted my last book, I did 138 podcast interviews.
0:36:59 That’s a different media landscape.
0:37:02 I think that video and TV is actually really, really
0:37:03 interesting right now.
0:37:09 So if I were to– I did a television show on a cable network
0:37:12 eight or nine years ago, I don’t think I’d do that again.
0:37:15 If I were to create a new television show,
0:37:17 I would go straight to YouTube.
0:37:18 And I think that that is–
0:37:21 I think that’s super interesting.
0:37:23 And so is it good for me?
0:37:24 Is it bad for me?
0:37:24 I don’t know.
0:37:26 But it is for me.
0:37:27 And so you have to deal.
0:37:29 But it’s been a big change, I have to say.
0:37:32 And I also think that books have changed, Scott.
0:37:36 I think that books are not–
0:37:38 I’m a writer.
0:37:41 So my muscle memory, my instinct, when I have an idea,
0:37:43 is to write a book.
0:37:46 And I am actually trying to check that impulse,
0:37:50 because that might not be the best vessel, the best expression
0:37:52 of that set of ideas, that set of arguments,
0:37:53 a set of stories.
0:37:55 It might be something in another medium.
0:37:56 So that’s how– it’s some of the ways
0:38:00 that I’m trying to adapt to this new media landscape.
0:38:02 Daniel Pink is the author of various bestselling books
0:38:05 on a range of topics, including “Human Motivation,”
0:38:07 “The Science of Timing,” and “Creativity.”
0:38:10 His books include the “New York Times” bestsellers,
0:38:12 “Power of Regret,” “A Whole New Mind,”
0:38:15 and “When,” as well as the number one “New York Times”
0:38:17 bestseller, “Drive.”
0:38:19 And “To Sell Is Human.”
0:38:22 He currently has a column with The Washington Post called
0:38:22 “Why Not?”
0:38:25 He joins us from– you’re in DC, is that right, Daniel?
0:38:26 Yes, sir.
0:38:28 So this was such a nice moment for me,
0:38:32 because I remember seeing your video and thinking,
0:38:33 I want to be like that guy.
0:38:37 I just want to do cool work that inspires people.
0:38:38 But you’re doing it now, man.
0:38:42 Well, I know, but you and others were a big part of that.
0:38:45 I just very much appreciate your work.
0:38:47 And it’s had an impact on me.
0:38:50 It’s really, quite frankly, it gave me a lot of motivation,
0:38:51 because it was inspiring.
0:38:53 So keep on trucking, my brother.
0:38:54 You’re doing a great job.
0:39:00 This episode was produced by Jennifer Sanchez and Caroline
0:39:01 Shagren.
0:39:03 Drew Burroughs is our technical director.
0:39:04 Thank you for listening to “The Property Pod” from the Box
0:39:05 Media Podcast Network.
0:39:09 We will catch you on Saturday for “No Mercenome Alice,”
0:39:10 as read by George Hahn.
0:39:13 And please follow our Prop G Markets pod,
0:39:15 wherever you get your pods for new episodes
0:39:17 every Monday and Thursday.
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Daniel Pink, the author of five New York Times bestselling books including Drive: The Surprising Truth About What Motivates Us and To Sell is Human: The Surprising Truth About Moving Others, joins Scott to discuss regret, human motivation, and his Washington Post column, “Why Not?”
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