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0:00:56 I’m Scott Galloway, and this is No Mercy, No Malice.
0:00:59 Josh Brown, the CMBC commentator and hedge fund manager
0:01:01 has become one of our favorite people.
0:01:03 We asked him to do a guest post.
0:01:05 This is adapted from his forthcoming book,
0:01:07 You Weren’t Supposed to See That,
0:01:09 coming out September 4th.
0:01:12 Optimism as a Default Setting, as read by George Hahn.
0:01:18 At the turn of the 20th century,
0:01:22 banker J.P. Morgan was the most powerful man on Wall Street,
0:01:25 perhaps the most powerful man in the world.
0:01:28 Finance in those days was still the wild west,
0:01:32 largely unregulated and prone to boom and bust cycles,
0:01:35 much more violent than anything we see today.
0:01:39 On several occasions, Morgan personally orchestrated
0:01:41 emergency measures to stop bank runs
0:01:44 that might have otherwise taken down the financial system,
0:01:47 typically increasing his own wealth in the process.
0:01:53 Shortly after one of those near misses, the Panic of 1907,
0:01:57 an old friend of Morgan’s from Chicago came for a visit.
0:02:00 The friend was, in the phrase of Mark Scousen,
0:02:04 from whom I got this story, a perma bear.
0:02:07 No matter what the market did,
0:02:09 his outcome was always pessimistic.
0:02:14 As usual, he and Morgan got to talking about the markets,
0:02:18 and as usual, Morgan’s friend saw poor omens
0:02:20 in every market indicator,
0:02:24 while Morgan saw only buying opportunities.
0:02:27 Eventually they headed out for lunch,
0:02:30 and walking up Broadway, Morgan’s friend
0:02:32 was admiring the towering skyscrapers
0:02:36 that were starting to define the Manhattan skyline.
0:02:37 Impressed, he acknowledged
0:02:40 they had nothing like them in Chicago.
0:02:44 Eventually, Morgan stopped, turned to his friend.
0:02:49 Funny thing about these skyscrapers, he said,
0:02:51 not a single one was built by a bear.
0:02:57 Six years before that conversation,
0:02:58 Morgan had completed his purchase
0:03:02 of Andrew Carnegie’s entire steel operation
0:03:06 for the unheard of sum of $480 million,
0:03:09 hundreds of billions in today’s dollars.
0:03:14 You don’t do that deal and amass that kind of wealth
0:03:16 with a persistently negative outlook.
0:03:21 Count the perma bears on the Forbes 400 list
0:03:23 or the amount of pessimists who run companies
0:03:25 in the Fortune 500.
0:03:28 You will find none.
0:03:32 Winners and men and women of foresight and ambition
0:03:35 do monumental things.
0:03:38 Pessimists watch them from the sidelines,
0:03:42 making a list of all the reasons things won’t work out.
0:03:45 The losers do get to win sometimes too,
0:03:49 but their victories tend to be pyrrhic,
0:03:52 as every calamity ultimately leads to opportunity
0:03:54 when the dust clears.
0:04:00 In 2009, deep in the depths of the great financial crisis,
0:04:03 I saw Sam Zell speak to an audience
0:04:06 of real estate investors and developers.
0:04:11 He told us that kings will be made in that moment.
0:04:14 He had nothing left to sell anyone,
0:04:17 having blown out of his massive real estate holdings
0:04:20 just three years earlier in a time of optimism.
0:04:24 Old Sam had seen too many of these cycles.
0:04:27 He knew that you always bet on positive outcomes
0:04:29 and you bet heavily when you’re alone
0:04:32 on that side of the trade.
0:04:35 It doesn’t always work, but it mostly does.
0:04:39 Pessimism is intellectually seductive
0:04:42 and the arguments always sound smarter,
0:04:45 especially when they dovetail with our own worries.
0:04:49 In the early years of the recovery from that crash,
0:04:52 Sam’s advice, which Morgan would have echoed,
0:04:54 was hard to follow.
0:04:57 Even four years later in 2013,
0:05:00 when the stock market finally made it back
0:05:04 over the 2007 high, optimism was scarce.
0:05:09 I remembered distinctly how hesitant investors were
0:05:12 to think positively about the future back then.
0:05:15 On financial social media,
0:05:17 saying things might work out okay
0:05:21 was practically an invitation to be mercilessly ridiculed.
0:05:25 There were all sorts of reasons not to trust the recovery
0:05:27 and if you know anything about the media,
0:05:30 then you know they had been relaying these reasons
0:05:33 to us morning, noon, and night,
0:05:38 repeatedly admonishing us lest we get too optimistic.
0:05:41 Valuations were high, they said,
0:05:44 while earnings would surely disappoint.
0:05:46 Interest rates would rise.
0:05:49 Various debt crises would ensue.
0:05:51 Demographics were unfavorable.
0:05:55 Obama’s healthcare plan surely meant the end of America.
0:05:57 A looming government shutdown that fall
0:06:01 would surely be the nail in the coffin.
0:06:05 And yet, somehow none of those things would sink us.
0:06:10 2013 turned out to have been the best year for stocks
0:06:14 since the Halcyon days of the late 1990s.
0:06:17 The Dow Jones industrial average finished the year
0:06:22 up 26.5%, its best finish in 18 years.
0:06:28 The S&P 500 had its best annual return in 16 years,
0:06:32 capping out the year with an almost 30% return,
0:06:36 ending December at a new record level.
0:06:40 The NASDAQ soared 38.2%,
0:06:45 led by an emerging group of biotechnology and solar stocks
0:06:47 that put on an extraordinary show
0:06:50 for a new generation of growth stock enthusiasts.
0:06:55 According to S&P Dow Jones’ indices,
0:07:00 457 of the S&P 500’s large cap stock,
0:07:04 roughly 90% of the index components, were up on the year.
0:07:10 More than two thirds of them had gains of 20% or more.
0:07:15 A new car company came out of the woodwork that year,
0:07:18 and its relatively unknown CEO, Elon Musk,
0:07:21 appeared on the cover of Fortune Magazine
0:07:24 as businessperson of the year in December.
0:07:30 Tesla’s stock was up over 350% in 2013,
0:07:33 kicking down the door to a new era
0:07:38 while clearing the cobwebs of the Aught’s decade crisis away.
0:07:42 Tesla’s rise and Musk’s wholly unorthodox approach
0:07:45 to building his business represented the start
0:07:47 of something entirely different
0:07:48 from what we were accustomed to.
0:07:52 This brought out as many haters and doubters
0:07:55 as it did fans and acolytes.
0:07:58 What was clear to both sides, however,
0:08:00 was that something was changing.
0:08:04 Netflix had made its transformation
0:08:07 from the company that mailed you physical DVDs
0:08:09 to a streaming platform that changed
0:08:14 the way we watched television and movies forever.
0:08:17 Its stock rose 300% that year,
0:08:21 becoming one of the hottest growth stories in the market.
0:08:25 Best Buy mounted a notable comeback that year,
0:08:28 notching a 240% return for investors
0:08:31 who hadn’t given up on the company.
0:08:35 BlackRock shares returned more than 50%
0:08:39 as the stock market recovered and the company surpassed
0:08:42 all others in terms of assets under management
0:08:47 with the ETF giant breaking above $4 trillion.
0:08:50 For every negative you could have cited
0:08:54 about the environment of 2013 as stocks reached new heights
0:08:58 and smashed through a wall of skepticism.
0:09:01 There were plenty of reasons for optimism.
0:09:04 You just had to work a little harder to find them.
0:09:09 This was true then and it is true now.
0:09:11 It will always be true.
0:09:14 And despite all that we were worried about
0:09:16 and all of the unimaginable things
0:09:19 that have befallen us since then,
0:09:21 the stock market has been just fine.
0:09:26 Over the last 10 years, the S&P 500,
0:09:29 assuming the reinvestment of dividends,
0:09:34 has returned over 230% or roughly 12% per year.
0:09:39 Today, we are once again contending with all sorts
0:09:42 of other threats to our future wellbeing.
0:09:45 Earnings expectations, we are told,
0:09:49 must ultimately revert lower once companies run out
0:09:51 of price hikes they can put forth,
0:09:53 while the cost of employing people
0:09:57 and running a business will surely increase.
0:09:59 Profits are too high and must come down.
0:10:05 There’s the 2024 presidential election to be fearful of too.
0:10:09 As of this writing, the contest features, quote,
0:10:11 an unhinged insurrectionist criminal tyrant
0:10:16 who wants to wipe his ass with the constitution, unquote,
0:10:19 and a vice president who’s been thrust into the role
0:10:23 after her party chased the bumbling old man out
0:10:25 after having spent the last 18 months
0:10:30 telling us he was perfectly healthy and up to the job.
0:10:34 Surely, a nation of 350 million people could do better.
0:10:37 Somebody has to win,
0:10:38 despite the fact that millions of people
0:10:42 wish their choices were someone, anyone else.
0:10:47 So we’ll vote and live with the consequences.
0:10:50 A few people on the winning side will be elated.
0:10:54 Most of us will simply be relieved that it’s over
0:10:58 or possibly terrified by the prospect of what comes next.
0:10:59 There is more.
0:11:04 We’re surely on the precipice of World War III
0:11:07 with China, Iran, and Russia
0:11:11 allying themselves against Ukraine, Israel,
0:11:13 and the rest of the free world,
0:11:15 which the United States represents
0:11:18 and supports both financially and militarily.
0:11:22 We’ve got thousands of gas-lit students
0:11:27 and their mendacious professors openly supporting terrorism,
0:11:29 kidnapping, mutilation, rape,
0:11:32 and murder on college campuses across America.
0:11:37 TikTok’s China-controlled algorithms gleefully pump
0:11:40 the most divisive content they can surface
0:11:42 directly into the national bloodstream.
0:11:46 Higher interest rates have put the housing market
0:11:49 into a deep freeze.
0:11:52 You can’t buy and you most certainly can’t sell,
0:11:55 risking a 100% increase in your mortgage rate.
0:12:00 The national debt is ballooning by trillions of dollars
0:12:03 as the cost of servicing it all threatens to become
0:12:07 our budget’s single biggest annual line item,
0:12:09 potentially supplanting social security
0:12:11 and defense spending.
0:12:14 Gas prices are high.
0:12:15 The rents are even higher.
0:12:17 Food prices are outrageous.
0:12:20 Hotel rooms and flights are egregious.
0:12:22 And despite the fact that nearly everyone
0:12:24 has gotten a wage hike in recent years,
0:12:29 the cost of living still seems to have outpaced it.
0:12:33 Talk to the average person on the street
0:12:36 and there’s almost nothing good worth saying.
0:12:39 The polls are nearly unanimously negative.
0:12:42 It’s bad and likely to get worse.
0:12:44 What is bad?
0:12:47 What is likely to get worse?
0:12:49 I don’t know, it, everything.
0:12:52 Okay, nice talking to you.
0:12:58 My point is that it’s easy to make lists of the problems,
0:13:02 of everything that could go wrong or get worse.
0:13:05 I could do it with my eyes closed and so could you.
0:13:09 It’s much harder to have the imagination
0:13:14 and the courage to talk openly about what might go right.
0:13:17 What might improve?
0:13:20 What unexpected thing could have a remarkable impact
0:13:23 on how we work and live and change things for the better?
0:13:27 Paradoxically, these types of improvements
0:13:29 come along all the time.
0:13:32 Given the long-term trend toward progress
0:13:36 and convenience and lengthening lifespans,
0:13:37 we ought to be more comfortable
0:13:39 discussing the positives than we are.
0:13:44 But the bad stuff lands like a thud,
0:13:47 generating headlines and invoking worst case scenarios
0:13:50 that drown out the sound of anything else.
0:13:53 The good stuff creeps up on us,
0:13:57 occurring slowly and quietly in the background
0:14:00 as we gradually and unobservantly
0:14:03 grow acclimated to it without even realizing.
0:14:10 It’s rare for us to feel it or remark upon it in real time.
0:14:14 The media has no vested interest in reminding us of it.
0:14:19 But the optimists are eventually proven right,
0:14:24 not every day, but always and eventually, indisputably.
0:14:29 It just takes a while to be able to see it play out.
0:14:31 Even if you don’t believe me,
0:14:33 make your investment in the future anyway,
0:14:37 just in case I end up being right again.
0:14:39 Plant your seed regardless.
0:14:41 If you end up being right in your pessimism
0:14:43 many years from now,
0:14:45 we will all have bigger problems
0:14:48 than what our investments are worth.
0:14:52 Being optimistic all the time is difficult.
0:14:57 But having any other disposition as a default setting
0:15:00 makes little sense when you’re investing for a future
0:15:02 far out in front of us.
0:15:07 – Life is so rich.
0:15:09 (gentle music)
0:15:12 (gentle music)
0:15:16 (gentle music)
0:15:18 you

0:00:01 (upbeat music)
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0:00:22 Viori sent me the Elevate Core Shorts and Stratotec tee.
0:00:24 And I like the way they feel that form-fitting.
0:00:25 I feel strong in them.
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0:01:19 Episode 313,
0:01:20 through and through is Iarico,
0:01:22 covering Detroit, Michigan in 1913,
0:01:24 the first travel gas station opened
0:01:28 and the U.S. Post Office began parcel post deliveries.
0:01:28 True to it.
0:01:30 I like to be supportive of the post office
0:01:33 and I’m constantly paying mail escorts.
0:01:36 That’s good.
0:01:39 Go, go, go!
0:01:49 Welcome to the 313th episode of the PropG pod.
0:01:52 We are still on holiday as it’s August.
0:01:53 I’m going very European.
0:01:55 As a matter of fact, my other podcast, PIVITCH,
0:01:57 I had to just slip in a PIVITCH yesterday
0:01:59 and I was still August and I’m like,
0:02:02 what’s the point of Scott Free August if you have Scott?
0:02:03 It’s kind of the key to a luxury brand,
0:02:06 which I am not, but is scarcity.
0:02:08 And also the key to living past,
0:02:10 whatever middle of the past today,
0:02:13 is taking a lot of vacation.
0:02:14 Let’s bring this to me.
0:02:15 Let’s bring this to me.
0:02:19 I have basically from the age of 27 to 47,
0:02:22 pretty much didn’t do anything but work.
0:02:24 Cost me my hair, cost me my marriage.
0:02:25 And it was worth it.
0:02:26 It was worth it.
0:02:28 Okay, anyways, still on holiday.
0:02:30 So in place of our regular scheduled program,
0:02:33 we have a real treat for you.
0:02:35 One of the top podcasters in the world
0:02:39 and sort of talk about having a moment.
0:02:42 Here with us today in the podcast studio is Andrew Huberman.
0:02:45 We discuss with Andrew common misconceptions
0:02:47 surrounding health, nutrition and exercise.
0:02:49 And also ask a lot of questions
0:02:52 about testosterone replacement therapy.
0:02:53 Asking for a friend.
0:02:55 So with that, we hope you enjoy our conversation
0:02:59 with the founder and host of the Huberman Lab,
0:03:00 Andrew Huberman.
0:03:04 – Professor Huberman, what does this podcast find you?
0:03:06 – I am currently in Los Angeles.
0:03:07 Where are you?
0:03:11 – I’m in London, but I was telling the team here.
0:03:13 I was asked if there was anyone in the world
0:03:17 I wanted to have on this podcast, who would it be?
0:03:21 And of course I said Barack Obama, but you were number two.
0:03:23 You literally, we’ve been trying to figure this out
0:03:24 for six months.
0:03:26 So we really are excited to have you here.
0:03:28 Let’s bust right into it.
0:03:30 We’d love it if you could start us off with
0:03:33 two or three insights regarding
0:03:35 sort of slang conventional thinking
0:03:36 about our physiological health.
0:03:39 What are some things that we think we know
0:03:43 that we don’t about our health, our nutrition, exercise?
0:03:45 Go wherever you want.
0:03:46 – Sure.
0:03:49 Well, the first one I think will be surprising
0:03:52 only to some, but I think nonetheless
0:03:55 is really important to start off with, which is it?
0:04:00 There is so much evidence, both real world experience,
0:04:03 as well as now just fantastic science
0:04:06 to support the fact that sleep is the foundation
0:04:08 of our mental health and physical health.
0:04:11 And of course, by extension, performance in any endeavor.
0:04:16 Academic, cognitive, musical, mathematical, sports, et cetera.
0:04:17 Why do I say this?
0:04:20 Well, let’s just take the mental health piece.
0:04:24 There’s a beautiful study published not long ago
0:04:26 looking at over 80,000 subjects
0:04:30 where they essentially looked at these people’s relationship
0:04:34 to light during the daytime exposure to sunlight,
0:04:36 exposure to artificial light,
0:04:38 as well as exposure to light at night.
0:04:40 Something that we know disrupts things
0:04:43 like melatonin production, melatonin being important
0:04:46 for making us sleepy, and a bunch of other things too.
0:04:48 And essentially what they found
0:04:52 was that there are two separable components to light,
0:04:54 our sleep patterns and our mental health.
0:04:56 And the basic takeaway is the following.
0:05:00 People who strive to get ample amounts of light,
0:05:03 especially sunlight in their eyes early in the day,
0:05:05 as well as people who just have bright lights on
0:05:08 and get outside for a walk every once in a while,
0:05:09 look outside a window,
0:05:11 step onto a balcony during the day,
0:05:15 have far superior mental health than people that don’t.
0:05:17 In addition, people that suffer from,
0:05:18 and they looked at a huge number
0:05:21 of different mental health conditions,
0:05:26 depression, anxiety, PTSD, manic bipolar disorder,
0:05:28 those people experience diminished symptoms
0:05:30 of all those conditions.
0:05:32 Okay, so that itself is very important.
0:05:33 And it’s also important to point out
0:05:36 that screen light rarely is bright enough.
0:05:38 And indoor lights rarely are bright enough.
0:05:39 If you’re lucky enough to work in an environment
0:05:42 with a lot of big windows, floor to ceiling windows,
0:05:45 and get a few walks during the day, you’re doing great.
0:05:48 But most people are in relatively dark environments
0:05:51 during the day as it relates to this mental health thing.
0:05:53 The second thing that’s really important
0:05:57 is that darkness at night is a separable,
0:05:59 but also important component.
0:06:01 And I don’t think it gets as much attention
0:06:03 and that it really deserves attention.
0:06:04 For instance, in this study,
0:06:08 they showed that people that get nighttime light exposure
0:06:11 suffer far worse symptoms of all mental health conditions
0:06:12 than people that don’t.
0:06:13 And this is separate and different
0:06:15 from daytime light exposure.
0:06:17 This is what’s important to understand.
0:06:19 In addition, people that really strive
0:06:21 to darken their nighttime environment,
0:06:22 dim the lights towards sleep,
0:06:25 keep the sleep environment dark,
0:06:28 enjoying many, many physical and mental health benefits.
0:06:30 In fact, there was a study published
0:06:31 in the Persings and the National Academy of Sciences
0:06:34 not long ago that showed that even a fairly
0:06:37 lower intensity light in the room,
0:06:40 as one sleeps with eyes closed, presumably,
0:06:41 unless they have an eye mask on,
0:06:44 will disrupt morning glucose levels.
0:06:45 It’s a dramatic effect.
0:06:46 And so what is this telling us?
0:06:49 Does this mean we have to be in pitch black at night
0:06:52 and we have to be in bright sunlight all day long?
0:06:55 No, what this means is that we should all strive
0:06:58 to get some sunlight in our eyes early in the day
0:07:00 to brighten our work environment,
0:07:04 maybe include if you suffer from lack of energy
0:07:07 or diminished mood, whatever time of year,
0:07:09 not just in Scandinavia and the depths of winter,
0:07:12 but maybe invest a small amount of money,
0:07:14 and by the way, I don’t have any relationship
0:07:16 to these companies, a small amount of money
0:07:18 into a 10,000 lux LED.
0:07:20 These run $100 or less.
0:07:23 You can even use a ring light that’s designed for selfies.
0:07:25 You’re getting more photons, more light energy.
0:07:27 We know that this improves mental health
0:07:29 and physical health focus and energy
0:07:31 in dramatic ways, sunlight being the best.
0:07:33 And if people are concerned about excessive sunlight
0:07:35 because of sunburn, we can just quickly say
0:07:37 that when the sun is low in the sky,
0:07:39 low solar angle sunlight, as it’s called,
0:07:41 the UV index is very low.
0:07:42 So getting outside and getting some sunlight
0:07:44 in your eyes early in the day
0:07:47 is a absolutely important thing to do
0:07:48 for our mental health and physical health.
0:07:51 And then at night, making some attempt to dim the lights,
0:07:53 if you have to be on a screen, dim the screen,
0:07:54 there are other things one could do,
0:07:56 but dimming the lights and trying to make
0:07:58 that sleep environment dark,
0:07:59 the most inexpensive way to do that
0:08:03 is with a comfortable eye mask or something of that sort.
0:08:04 This seemed like simple things,
0:08:05 but what we’re really talking about here
0:08:09 is a primordial mechanism that is in all of us,
0:08:13 whereby photons, light energy, arriving at the eye
0:08:15 and then passing through the lens of the eye to the retina,
0:08:17 which is the essentially a piece of your brain,
0:08:19 believe it or not, you have two pieces of brain
0:08:21 lining the back of your eyes like pie crust,
0:08:23 activates a specialized set of neurons,
0:08:26 they’re called intrinsically photosensitive melanopsin
0:08:27 ganglion cells, but the name doesn’t matter.
0:08:30 And then they transmit an electrical signal
0:08:32 to an area of your brain that sits right above the roof
0:08:35 of your mouth called the suprachiasmatic nucleus
0:08:37 that sets in motion an enormous number
0:08:40 of things within your brain and body,
0:08:41 the release of certain hormones,
0:08:44 the release of certain neurotransmitters,
0:08:47 things like dopamine, serotonin, certain peptides,
0:08:49 that essentially if you do that in the early part of the day
0:08:52 and a few times throughout the day, that light exposure,
0:08:57 you’re going to be more awake, feel better,
0:08:58 physically and mentally throughout the day,
0:09:02 and you will have an easier time falling asleep at night.
0:09:05 Now, the tricky thing is that light exposure
0:09:07 in the evening and at night,
0:09:10 it doesn’t take very much in order to disrupt,
0:09:12 for instance, your melatonin activity.
0:09:13 There’s a wonderful laboratory
0:09:16 at Harvard Medical School, Charles Eisler’s lab,
0:09:18 that has shown that even 12 seconds
0:09:20 of very bright light in the middle of the night
0:09:21 will quash your melatonin levels.
0:09:24 Now, if that happens every once in a while, no big deal.
0:09:26 But if you’re somebody who is in a bright light environment
0:09:29 at 10 p.m. and having trouble staying asleep,
0:09:31 you know, you go to sleep at midnight, 12 30,
0:09:33 and then you are waking up at three in the morning.
0:09:36 Chances are your evening and nighttime light exposure
0:09:37 has something to do with that.
0:09:38 There could be other things too, right?
0:09:40 Too much caffeine late in the day, et cetera.
0:09:43 And this is a big part of what I believe is related
0:09:45 to the mental health crisis that we’re seeing
0:09:49 not just in young people, but in adults as well,
0:09:50 where people are waking up at the middle of the night,
0:09:51 they’re looking at their phone, you know,
0:09:54 then in the morning, they’re not feeling rested,
0:09:56 then they’re overindulging in caffeine.
0:09:57 And by the way, I love caffeine.
0:10:00 I’m a heavy user of caffeine, I’ll admit that.
0:10:02 Overindulging in caffeine, but they’re staying indoors
0:10:04 and putting on sunglasses, driving to work.
0:10:06 They’re in an environment that’s well lit enough
0:10:08 for them to, you know, carry out their duties,
0:10:11 but they’re never getting this strong circadian signal.
0:10:13 And we know that basically every mental health condition
0:10:15 is made worse by this type of behavior.
0:10:17 And that every mental health condition
0:10:18 that we are aware of is made better
0:10:21 through these simple zero cost adjustments
0:10:24 to our interactions with light.
0:10:26 – So Andrew, now do exercise,
0:10:27 and then I’m gonna ask you
0:10:29 to do the same thing for nutrition.
0:10:32 So with respect to exercise, it’s very clear,
0:10:36 moving our body, okay, exercise is essential
0:10:38 for immediate and long-term health.
0:10:39 And I don’t have to list off the reasons.
0:10:41 Cardiovascular health, which of course relates
0:10:42 to brain health.
0:10:44 As a neuroscientist, people ask me,
0:10:47 what’s the best thing I can do for my brain?
0:10:48 Keep my memory, et cetera, as I age
0:10:51 and be healthier mentally.
0:10:53 And it’s simple, get great sleep every night.
0:10:56 And then I explain one of the ways to do that.
0:10:58 And if you don’t get great sleep for a night,
0:11:00 have some things in place that we can talk about
0:11:01 to adjust for that.
0:11:03 So sleep is the foundation of that.
0:11:05 But then it’s exercise.
0:11:06 We need to move.
0:11:07 What does the literature tell us?
0:11:11 The literature tells us that we should all walk a lot.
0:11:12 Why?
0:11:14 Well, walking is, if you’re doing it briskly,
0:11:16 is that, you know, comes zone two cardio
0:11:18 that we hear a lot about these days.
0:11:22 That’s great for everything for metabolic health.
0:11:24 So managing glucose insulin and mitochondrial health,
0:11:25 et cetera, et cetera.
0:11:28 But we can break things down into a simple formula.
0:11:30 That I’ve been fortunate enough to have followed
0:11:32 for the last 30 plus years.
0:11:36 So I got into this when I was about 16, 48 now.
0:11:37 And it’s the following.
0:11:40 If you do three sessions of cardiovascular exercise
0:11:43 per week, in any format, I would say that you can do
0:11:45 without injuring yourself.
0:11:47 So for me, I like to run.
0:11:50 But actually, if I cycle, I end up with some back stuff.
0:11:51 And so I run.
0:11:53 I like to run or swim.
0:11:55 It’s a little hard to get access to a pool sometimes,
0:11:56 so I mainly run.
0:12:00 If you do three sessions per week, one longer session,
0:12:03 you know, say 45 to 60 minutes long, slow distance,
0:12:04 kind of just, you know,
0:12:06 just barely able to have a conversation,
0:12:08 maybe a little bit faster.
0:12:09 One session that’s a little bit quicker,
0:12:12 maybe 30 minutes where you’re pushing a bit harder,
0:12:14 you know, where it’s hard to hold a conversation,
0:12:16 but you’re not sprinting all out.
0:12:18 And then one session that is very brief,
0:12:21 maybe just 10, 15 minutes where, you know,
0:12:24 you do some sort of sprinting, not all out,
0:12:26 but, you know, 10, 15, maybe 20 seconds,
0:12:28 then rest 30 seconds to a minute,
0:12:32 and then repeat anywhere from five to eight times.
0:12:33 We know that if you do that,
0:12:36 you’re hitting a number of important metrics for health.
0:12:39 First of all, you’re creating that kind of base
0:12:40 of aerobic activity.
0:12:42 You know, this is not gonna prepare you
0:12:43 to be a marathoner, of course,
0:12:46 but you’re getting that zone-to-ish cardio
0:12:48 that’s good for so many things.
0:12:52 The faster clip exercise, which is slightly aerobic,
0:12:53 it was slightly anaerobic, excuse me,
0:12:56 but still mostly aerobic, where you get your heart rate up.
0:12:57 That’s gonna do a number of different things
0:13:00 in terms of your conditioning and your ability
0:13:01 to tolerate these, you know,
0:13:04 kind of more stressful cardiovascular sessions,
0:13:05 not just in these sessions, but in life.
0:13:06 And I’ll talk about that.
0:13:10 And then the shorter bout of exercise,
0:13:14 one day per week, is essentially giving you access
0:13:15 to your VO2 max, right?
0:13:17 It’s improving your VO2 max,
0:13:19 which is your ability to bring more oxygen
0:13:21 into your system overall for any number of reasons.
0:13:22 This is great.
0:13:25 Okay, let’s just translate why all that is great.
0:13:26 Well, first of all,
0:13:28 life involves sometimes taking a long walk,
0:13:30 hopefully with loved ones or a hike,
0:13:32 or you maybe carry a kid or a backpack
0:13:35 or a picnic basket some distance.
0:13:38 It sometimes involves sprinting for the flight
0:13:39 that’s gonna take off.
0:13:41 It sometimes involves doing some, you know,
0:13:43 hard work in the yard or moving stuff
0:13:46 or helping people with suitcases or helping a friend move.
0:13:49 These are like, these transfer to real-life conditions.
0:13:54 And I think the best exercise regimen has this translation
0:13:55 into real-world activities.
0:13:59 Now it’s also vital, and we know this for men and for women,
0:14:02 that we do some sort of resistance training.
0:14:03 That resistance training can be done
0:14:05 probably two or three days per week
0:14:08 and can be very effective done as whole body workouts,
0:14:11 keeping up, you know, three sets per major muscle group,
0:14:13 you know, three sets for quadriceps,
0:14:14 three sets for hamstrings,
0:14:17 three sets for biceps, triceps, back, chest shows,
0:14:18 you know, three times per week,
0:14:19 maybe two times per week
0:14:21 if somebody doesn’t have more time than that,
0:14:24 totally in a session of about an hour,
0:14:26 or you could split things up,
0:14:27 which is I’ve opted to do one day a week.
0:14:30 I, you know, train my legs ’cause that’s very important.
0:14:32 These are large muscle groups to keep strengthening the legs.
0:14:35 One day a week I train the torso,
0:14:36 you know, some pushing and some pulling,
0:14:39 you know, some dips, one to do push-ups.
0:14:40 This is also important that resistance training
0:14:42 doesn’t necessarily mean going to a gym.
0:14:43 You could have stuff at home
0:14:45 or you could just use body weight can be very effective
0:14:47 if you’re doing it correctly.
0:14:49 And then one day a week,
0:14:50 you know, your sort of biceps, triceps, calves,
0:14:53 maybe some additional abdominal work.
0:14:55 Some people like me are fans of training the neck
0:14:57 just for stability and postural purposes.
0:14:58 It’s not about having a big neck.
0:15:01 In fact, you know, I don’t think I’m particularly big neck
0:15:02 relative to my head size.
0:15:04 You know, it’s just, it’s about posture,
0:15:05 which is so important,
0:15:06 especially nowadays with all the texting.
0:15:09 Three days per week takes about an hour per session.
0:15:12 Of course there are, and most people focus
0:15:15 on the aesthetic consequences of this, right?
0:15:17 Because training with resistance
0:15:19 is one of these rare instances in life
0:15:21 where you actually get a window
0:15:22 into what the results will look like.
0:15:24 People, I should just say,
0:15:26 people who are concerned about getting too big,
0:15:27 keep this in mind.
0:15:29 You will never get any bigger
0:15:32 than you appear at any moment in the gym from a workout.
0:15:34 So that, but resistance training is peculiar
0:15:37 in the sense that, you know, like if you do a set of curls,
0:15:39 the biceps get bigger, but that’s transient,
0:15:40 but you’re getting a visual window
0:15:43 and a, you know, a sensory window
0:15:44 into what it’s going to look and feel like.
0:15:47 Should you give it proper rest and nutrition to recover?
0:15:48 That said, I should caution,
0:15:52 I think that the male audience mainly oftentimes
0:15:54 will get very excited about getting stronger
0:15:56 and will throw their bodies out of proportion
0:15:58 and will also make themselves subject to injury.
0:16:00 This is the guy with the big upper body, no legs,
0:16:03 or who is always complaining
0:16:05 because they insist on squatting heavy every time
0:16:06 or benching heavy or whatever.
0:16:09 So, but the point here is that resistance training
0:16:11 is not just about aesthetic changes.
0:16:14 It’s about keeping your muscle healthy as an organ,
0:16:15 which is vital for longevity.
0:16:18 It’s about the nerve to muscle communication
0:16:21 remaining healthy, which is vital to brain health.
0:16:24 In fact, many of the tests for things like Alzheimer’s
0:16:27 and other forms of dementia involve looking, for instance,
0:16:29 at changes in distal muscle size.
0:16:32 So, you know, atrophy of the calves as people age
0:16:34 is associated with age-related cognitive decline.
0:16:36 Now, these things are correlated, not causal,
0:16:38 but we know that people that resistance train in a way
0:16:41 that includes the distal portions of the limbs,
0:16:43 so that the calves, the legs, et cetera,
0:16:45 not just doing some, you know, pressing while seated,
0:16:47 you know, kind of simple stuff,
0:16:49 but more elaborate compound exercises,
0:16:51 being able to jump down off a block,
0:16:52 even if it’s a small block,
0:16:55 maintain cognitive function far, you know,
0:16:57 further into life than people who don’t.
0:16:58 And that has to do with the fact that, you know,
0:17:01 nerve transmission from what we call the upper motor neurons,
0:17:03 the neurons in the brain that control the lower motor neurons
0:17:06 and the spinal cord that then control the muscles,
0:17:09 that whole pathway is vital for essentially, you know,
0:17:11 brain-to-body communication.
0:17:13 And there’s feedback in a way that, you know,
0:17:15 it’s not going to reverse Alzheimer’s,
0:17:17 but it can certainly adjust the slope
0:17:18 of age-related cognitive decline,
0:17:20 which everyone experiences, you know,
0:17:23 in the correct direction, the direction you want.
0:17:24 So there’s that reason.
0:17:26 The other reason is when you have muscle
0:17:27 and you’re exercising your muscles,
0:17:29 even if you don’t have a lot of muscle,
0:17:31 you are improving your metabolic health.
0:17:33 You can eat more comfortably and know that,
0:17:36 especially protein foods are gonna be metabolized
0:17:38 and not converted into body fat stores.
0:17:41 You’re staving off different kinds of insulin resistance.
0:17:42 So what we’re basically talking about
0:17:43 is three days a week of cardiovascular training.
0:17:46 It might sound like a lot, but it’s one one hour session,
0:17:48 a 30-minute session and a 15-minute session.
0:17:51 And then we’re talking about two or three hours
0:17:53 per week of resistance training.
0:17:54 And that might sound like a lot,
0:17:56 but it goes by pretty quickly.
0:17:58 And, you know, there are a lot of different routines
0:17:59 for this out there.
0:18:00 You don’t need to purchase one.
0:18:02 Actually, at our podcast website,
0:18:04 we put a foundational fitness program
0:18:06 that’s zero cost to access.
0:18:07 You don’t even need to sign up.
0:18:08 If you want to sign up for a newsletter, you can,
0:18:10 but you just go to huberunlab.com,
0:18:13 go to newsletter, and just see the foundational fitness
0:18:15 protocol sets and wraps alternatives
0:18:18 for different exercise choice.
0:18:21 It is very important, and this is among the more important
0:18:23 points about exercise that I don’t hear often enough,
0:18:26 one of the best ways to get and stay in excellent shape
0:18:29 is to make sure that you do not get injured.
0:18:31 And this is super important.
0:18:33 It means easing all of this slowly over the course
0:18:36 of a month or two, if you’re not trained up.
0:18:38 Pick exercises, both for cardiovascular training
0:18:42 and for physical training that you can do consistently
0:18:43 without hurting yourself.
0:18:45 And I think people get a little too obsessed
0:18:46 with exercise variety.
0:18:50 Do the same things and use progressive overload
0:18:52 or slow the cadence or really focus more
0:18:54 on the muscle contractions.
0:18:56 Obviously, try and keep boredom at bay,
0:19:00 but one of the major ways that people get hurt,
0:19:01 and I hear this over and over again,
0:19:04 is a friend invites you to try a workout.
0:19:06 And even if you’re not a competitive person,
0:19:08 someone’s like, let’s go try this thing
0:19:10 and you take a class, taking a new class.
0:19:12 There’s always this new class, new workout,
0:19:13 or a friend invited me to do something.
0:19:15 And then you hear about it.
0:19:17 My back thing is out or my shoulder.
0:19:21 You can really throw off your entire health program
0:19:23 with a nagging injury.
0:19:25 So avoid those injuries as much as possible.
0:19:27 And this is true for the young folks and the older folks.
0:19:31 You really, really want to guard your physical health.
0:19:33 Unless you’re a competitive athlete,
0:19:36 your goal is to train five to six times per week
0:19:38 and get a full day of rest once per week.
0:19:40 Your whole life, I hate to say it.
0:19:41 You can take a week off every once in a while.
0:19:43 If you get, usually for me, that’s if I get you,
0:19:46 you know, a cold or a flu or travel or something,
0:19:48 or you’re not sleeping well because of life stress,
0:19:51 but not getting hurt is so key.
0:19:55 So pick exercises that allow you to train hard enough
0:19:56 and not get hurt.
0:19:58 And then the last point about this is I think
0:20:01 about 85 to 90% of workouts
0:20:05 should be at about 85 to 90% of what you could do.
0:20:10 So for instance, not every set to failure,
0:20:14 not every run needs to end with a sprint.
0:20:16 You know, if that sprint is something in you
0:20:18 and you want to do it, don’t go all out.
0:20:20 And then I would say the remaining workouts
0:20:22 could be at a slightly higher intensity.
0:20:25 But don’t worry about keeping some gas in the tank.
0:20:27 Also for people that aren’t athletes,
0:20:30 keep in mind if you do a hard resistance training workout
0:20:32 in the morning, you’ll have more energy,
0:20:33 but in the afternoon, you’ll tend to be tired.
0:20:35 And that has to do with oxygen uptake.
0:20:37 You can get a divert away from the brain.
0:20:39 So there’s exercise, I think in a nutshell.
0:20:41 – And nutrition?
0:20:44 – Yeah, so this is a fun one because never
0:20:47 in any scientific or health community
0:20:50 have I seen more fighting about anything.
0:20:54 It’s almost amusing how much fighting occurs around this.
0:20:56 And I think at the same time,
0:20:59 there’s a key principle that emerges from all of it
0:21:01 that everyone seems to agree on,
0:21:04 which is that it is going to be best to get the majority,
0:21:06 meaning 75 to 100 if you’re really strict,
0:21:11 but 75% or more of your food intake from non-processed
0:21:13 or minimally processed foods.
0:21:16 Now, is it the case that processed foods are terrible?
0:21:20 Well, they can be, but the reason getting the majority
0:21:22 of one’s food intake from non-processed
0:21:23 or minimally processed foods.
0:21:26 So this would be, if it’s in your nutrition plan,
0:21:28 you know, things like meat, fish, eggs,
0:21:33 chicken, fruits, vegetables, rice, oatmeal, pastas,
0:21:38 things like that, is that it sets you up to eat foods
0:21:41 that have macronutrients, of course,
0:21:42 protein, fat, and carbohydrates,
0:21:45 but also micronutrients that you need
0:21:48 and that generally tend to be pretty filling
0:21:50 compared to more processed versions of those things,
0:21:51 packaged version.
0:21:53 Now, does that mean that rice is a,
0:21:56 because it comes in a package, is a processed food?
0:21:58 Well, sort of, that’s, I didn’t say minimally,
0:22:00 but when you produce a sort of single ingredient food,
0:22:03 of course you can put other things in it, right?
0:22:06 Butter, olive oil, nuts in low quantity
0:22:07 seem to be healthy for us.
0:22:11 Nuts and seeds in low quantity, they’re very calorie dense.
0:22:14 And then of course, it’s up to you, or all of us,
0:22:17 to decide you want to be a vegan, a vegetarian,
0:22:18 and omnivore, which I happen to be,
0:22:21 or there are these carnivore folks.
0:22:23 So we, you could be in any one of those categories,
0:22:25 and the first thing I said would still be true.
0:22:28 The other thing that we know is immensely important
0:22:30 is to support the gut microbiome,
0:22:32 because it has relationship to brain health,
0:22:34 immune system health, cognitive function,
0:22:36 and of course we have microbiomes in our nose,
0:22:38 in our urethral, our eyes, you know.
0:22:41 But the gut microbiome is so vital.
0:22:43 And the best way to support the gut microbiome
0:22:46 is to consume one to four servings
0:22:48 of low sugar fermented food per day.
0:22:49 These exist in all cultures.
0:22:54 So things like kimchi, sauerkraut, kefir, Greek yogurt,
0:22:58 again, low sugar versions of these, low sugar kombucha,
0:23:02 you know, it is not necessary to take pill form probiotics.
0:23:03 It’s not, if you’re doing this.
0:23:05 It’s also important to get enough prebiotic
0:23:07 and probiotic fiber, which you’ll get
0:23:08 if you’re consuming fruits and vegetables.
0:23:11 And we all know dark leafy vegetables,
0:23:13 fruit with colorations of berries,
0:23:14 although berries can be kind of expensive,
0:23:17 but if you can afford them some berries,
0:23:20 you know, oranges, you know, the kind of rainbow of fruits,
0:23:24 they, those also include, of course, fiber.
0:23:26 And of course we know that excess sugar isn’t good.
0:23:28 Now people who really understand nutrition
0:23:31 will say, well, it’s calories in, calories out.
0:23:32 It’s the laws of thermodynamics.
0:23:34 So yes, you can lose weight on a, you know,
0:23:36 on a hamburger and milkshake diet
0:23:40 if it’s, you know, less calories than you burn each day.
0:23:41 But you’re going to lack micronutrients.
0:23:42 You’re not going to get enough fiber.
0:23:44 Your gut microbiome will suffer.
0:23:47 And so by eating mostly whole foods
0:23:48 and minimally processed foods
0:23:50 and thinking a bit about the gut microbiome
0:23:53 with respect to fiber, prebiotic and probiotic fiber,
0:23:56 so fruits and vegetables, as well as ingesting
0:23:58 some low sugar fermented food each day,
0:24:01 you’re going to feel significantly better.
0:24:03 Your weight management, if that’s your thing,
0:24:05 is going to be far easier.
0:24:08 There’s also something that is starting to emerge
0:24:09 in the literature.
0:24:11 And Kevin Hall at NIH is doing work in this area,
0:24:13 but people in this general space are starting to talk about,
0:24:17 which is when you eat foods close to their whole
0:24:20 or minimally processed state,
0:24:23 the brain can make the correlation.
0:24:28 It’s a subconscious correlation between kind of food taste,
0:24:32 volume, macronutrient content.
0:24:33 So like if you eat, for instance, a steak,
0:24:37 or let’s say an orange, in either case, you’re tasting that.
0:24:40 There are also amino acids from the steak going to your gut.
0:24:42 Your gut is actually signaling your brain unconsciously
0:24:45 about how much more to eat and signal satiety centers.
0:24:47 And there’s this whole learning.
0:24:51 It’s a system, a neural system, and a hormonal system
0:24:52 that’s very prone to learning,
0:24:54 so that you start to associate your appetite
0:24:56 with how much you need to eat
0:24:58 in order to get the proper amount of amino acids,
0:25:01 which is largely why we eat, I’m going to talk about this,
0:25:05 the amino acid foraging idea, plus essential fatty acids.
0:25:08 And we tend to get better at not overeating
0:25:10 for what we need, right?
0:25:12 We tend to get enough of what we need, but not eat too much.
0:25:15 Now, when you eat foods in combination like a sandwich,
0:25:16 that’s not a bad thing.
0:25:18 I love a really good sandwich,
0:25:21 but it’s harder to ascertain
0:25:24 what you’re getting from each component.
0:25:27 And people often will overeat foods in combination.
0:25:30 So it doesn’t mean you have to eat every ingredient separately,
0:25:32 but there’s a lot of learning that takes place
0:25:33 when one moves more towards whole foods
0:25:35 or minimally processed foods.
0:25:38 And this is, I believe, and this is just hypothesis.
0:25:39 This is one of the reasons why
0:25:41 when people go on an elimination diet,
0:25:44 like they decide to just eat meat or become vegan
0:25:47 and really focus on healthy fruits and vegetables,
0:25:48 that they feel so much better
0:25:51 and often lose a lot of weight.
0:25:54 They must still be obeying the calories in and calories out,
0:25:56 laws of thermodynamics in order to lose weight,
0:25:58 burning more than they consume, that is.
0:26:02 But there’s a learning there at the level of the brain
0:26:04 and the body of, oh, when I eat this,
0:26:06 it’s very satisfying, feels nutritious.
0:26:09 When we’re eating highly processed foods,
0:26:11 there’s a tendency to bring, and we know this
0:26:14 by beautiful paper published a few years ago,
0:26:17 people tend to over consume food.
0:26:20 They don’t register their satiety as well.
0:26:22 So this would be like macaroni and cheese and muffins
0:26:25 and things like that, things that could survive
0:26:27 on the shelf a very long time,
0:26:29 even in their final ready-to-eat form.
0:26:32 And when people eat those foods,
0:26:36 I don’t think it’s just a disruption of metabolic health,
0:26:37 which we know occurs over time,
0:26:40 but also a disruption of the brain-to-body communication
0:26:44 around what we need, what’s satisfying, and what’s enough.
0:26:47 So this business of how the brain and body learn
0:26:49 to associate experience with nutrition,
0:26:51 with what’s healthy for us and what’s unhealthy for us
0:26:55 is both cognitive and conscious, as well as unconscious.
0:26:58 And it relates to the fact that we are largely
0:27:00 amino acid foraging and fatty acid foraging.
0:27:01 It is true, there’s no such thing
0:27:03 as an essential carbohydrate,
0:27:05 but most people, including myself, enjoy carbohydrates,
0:27:08 and they do provide fuel for certain forms of exercise.
0:27:10 And in my experience, I can think better
0:27:12 when I have eaten some carbohydrates,
0:27:14 at least in the previous few days.
0:27:16 We’ll be right back.
0:27:21 Support for Prop G comes from Life360.
0:27:23 We all know the feeling.
0:27:24 You’re about to walk out the door,
0:27:26 you do the phone keys wallet pat down,
0:27:28 and realize your wallet isn’t in your pocket.
0:27:30 It isn’t on the table or the nightstand,
0:27:32 or even yesterday’s pants.
0:27:34 Now what, what are we gonna do?
0:27:37 Next time, skip the hassle and stock up on pile trackers.
0:27:38 You can attach them to your keys,
0:27:40 slip one in your wallet, or anything else
0:27:41 you don’t wanna lose.
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0:30:31 So I’m trying, I’m 59.
0:30:34 I look at my health holistically, good on sleep,
0:30:38 okay on nutrition, what kills me is travel and alcohol.
0:30:40 And I wanna break this down.
0:30:41 I’m trying to reduce,
0:30:43 I just drink a shit ton of alcohol.
0:30:45 I believe what Winston Churchill said,
0:30:47 I’ve got more out of alcohol than it’s gotten out of me.
0:30:50 I’m good at it, not an addictive personality.
0:30:51 I’d really enjoy it.
0:30:54 But as I get older, I realize my 59-year-old liver
0:30:55 just can’t process things
0:30:57 the way a 29-year-old liver can process.
0:31:00 So I’m purposely trying to wind it down.
0:31:02 At the same time, just being very transparent,
0:31:04 I love to be high.
0:31:06 And I love the feeling of being
0:31:07 under the influence of substances.
0:31:08 And so I have-
0:31:10 Which substances are your-
0:31:12 Well, I don’t really do a lot of stuff.
0:31:16 What I’ve done is I’ve tried to dial back alcohol
0:31:18 and I’m doing edibles now.
0:31:20 And I do edibles two, three times a week.
0:31:22 They help me sleep, I enjoy them.
0:31:24 I realize there’s no free lunch here.
0:31:26 But if it’s realistically,
0:31:28 if a lot of people you speak to
0:31:30 who are like to think of themselves as high-performing people
0:31:34 but also enjoy the right term is.
0:31:35 I need a more optimistic term
0:31:37 than getting fucked up or partying or whatever.
0:31:40 But recognize they need to reduce their alcohol intake.
0:31:43 One, is there a type of alcohol that’s less punishing?
0:31:47 And two, if you are going to do THC or something else,
0:31:50 is there something that on a risk-adjusted basis
0:31:53 has the highest ROI in terms of feeling good
0:31:55 to minimum damage on your body?
0:31:58 Let’s assume I am never going to be Andrew Huberman.
0:32:01 I’m just not going to be fully optimized.
0:32:04 I want to run at 80 to 90%,
0:32:06 but also quite frankly,
0:32:09 give into a lot of the guilty pleasures around substances.
0:32:13 What is the old Navy of substance abuse
0:32:16 where I get 80% of the high for 50% of the damage?
0:32:19 – Great questions.
0:32:24 And I should say, optimization is something
0:32:27 that we have to think about on a day-to-day basis.
0:32:28 So it is true.
0:32:30 I did rounds of sauna and cold this morning.
0:32:32 I did, I did.
0:32:34 I got up really early, a friend came over.
0:32:35 I haven’t seen him a while ago.
0:32:38 Earlier than I would have liked and did sauna and cold.
0:32:40 And I did train yesterday, but there are days,
0:32:45 I miss days and it happens and life.
0:32:46 So I don’t want to give the impression
0:32:51 that my entire life is geared around protocols
0:32:52 to the point where I don’t do other things.
0:32:54 I went out to dinner with friends last night.
0:32:55 I experienced stress in life.
0:32:57 We could talk about that, like anyone else.
0:33:02 So I would say this, figure out the minimum amount
0:33:05 of alcohol that you’re happy to drink
0:33:08 that makes you feel like you’re living life.
0:33:10 So maybe that’s a drink a night.
0:33:11 Maybe that’s two a week.
0:33:14 Maybe that’s stacking a few more toward the weekend,
0:33:16 whatever’s gonna work there.
0:33:18 And provided that your sleep is good,
0:33:20 meaning we know it’s gonna disrupt
0:33:21 your sleep architecture somewhat,
0:33:23 but provided that you don’t have
0:33:25 excessive daytime sleepiness,
0:33:27 provided that you are not getting
0:33:29 an increased frequency of colds and flus,
0:33:30 you’re accomplishing your work,
0:33:32 I would say you’re doing great.
0:33:35 Especially since you’re visibly fit.
0:33:39 If you can do the three cardio vascular training sessions
0:33:41 and the two, this is the training sessions
0:33:44 that I just described without dissolving
0:33:47 into a pile of cells on the floor afterwards,
0:33:50 even when you’re doing a 85% of intensity
0:33:53 or let’s say 85% intensity of what you could do,
0:33:55 you’re doing great, you’re doing great.
0:33:59 Now, with respect to alcohol,
0:34:01 the stress lowering properties
0:34:05 and the fact that it is often associated
0:34:07 with social events and the fact that
0:34:09 this is related to stress somewhat,
0:34:11 but it also takes our mind off of things
0:34:13 we probably don’t wanna think about.
0:34:15 It marks a transition point
0:34:17 for a lot of people at the end of the day.
0:34:19 It’s hard to dump thoughts.
0:34:21 So like, okay, they have a drink
0:34:22 and then they’re like into the evening
0:34:24 and then next morning they’re up and at it again.
0:34:27 That’s a perfectly healthy and understandable thing.
0:34:28 Now, with respect to cannabis,
0:34:30 so this is interesting,
0:34:32 I just did a four hour interview,
0:34:35 it hasn’t been released yet with a researcher
0:34:36 who works on cannabis.
0:34:38 I’ve done a solo episode about cannabis
0:34:40 and this interview was actually sparked
0:34:43 by a clip that we had put on Twitter on X
0:34:46 and then he jumped at it.
0:34:48 He insisted certain things in it were wrong
0:34:49 and then he came in and we had a discussion
0:34:51 and turns out we’ve realized far more things
0:34:52 than we disagree about.
0:34:54 Let’s put it this way.
0:34:56 There is some evidence, some,
0:35:00 that high potency, meaning high THC cannabis use
0:35:03 may exacerbate or be correlated
0:35:06 with serious mental health issues,
0:35:08 psychosis in some people.
0:35:10 But obviously that’s not happening for you.
0:35:11 Here’s what I learned from him,
0:35:12 which is very interesting.
0:35:15 We hear so much about how today’s cannabis
0:35:17 isn’t yesterday’s cannabis.
0:35:21 You know that weed in the 70s was so much milder
0:35:22 than weed today.
0:35:23 And indeed that’s true.
0:35:26 It’s being engineered, grown,
0:35:28 to have much higher concentrations of THC
0:35:30 or varying levels of THC,
0:35:32 so one can select what they like.
0:35:35 In smoked form or vaped form,
0:35:37 this is what I learned.
0:35:41 People are remarkably good at adjusting their,
0:35:44 let’s just call it like the depth and number of toks
0:35:49 in order to achieve a fairly consistent blood level of THC.
0:35:54 So if they happen to have higher concentration cannabis,
0:35:55 and by the way, I also learned,
0:35:56 and I’ll just pass this along for folks,
0:35:59 ’cause as I learned, I like to pass things along,
0:36:00 there are reasons why it’s,
0:36:02 you’re not supposed to call it marijuana anymore.
0:36:06 There’s a whole story there that’s laid to cultural issues
0:36:09 and some issues potentially related to racism.
0:36:13 It’s very, so just as they say, look it up,
0:36:15 you know, or look it anywhere, right?
0:36:18 It’s interesting, so that’s why I’m calling it cannabis, okay?
0:36:20 Cannabis or weed, so in smoked form,
0:36:22 people seem to be very good at regulating their intake
0:36:27 to achieve a kind of a fairly consistent level
0:36:32 of THC in the blood from one intake session to the next.
0:36:36 Edibles, however, it’s far more difficult
0:36:38 to regulate the blood level
0:36:41 because one can eat a whole cookie or eat an edible
0:36:42 or eat half a cookie,
0:36:44 and so unless you’re using the same source,
0:36:46 this is where people sometimes find themselves
0:36:49 in a very different mental state than they intended.
0:36:51 Now, is there tolerance, is it addictive?
0:36:53 These things are still heavily debated.
0:36:55 I would argue, and this is not based
0:36:56 on randomized controlled trial,
0:37:00 that people who are heavy cannabis users,
0:37:01 when they don’t have their cannabis,
0:37:03 they get pretty cranky
0:37:05 because a lot of people use it to manage anxiety,
0:37:07 and there’s some interesting studies taking place
0:37:09 about looking at genetic polymorphisms
0:37:11 and tendency for anxiety in people
0:37:14 who really prefer cannabis to other drugs
0:37:17 because it does seem to be, for them,
0:37:18 a way to adjust their anxiety.
0:37:21 I will say that taking cannabis before sleep
0:37:22 may help you fall asleep.
0:37:26 It is definitely, Dr. Matt Walker talks about this,
0:37:27 the world expert on sleep, really.
0:37:29 It’s dramatically reducing the amount
0:37:31 of rapid eye movement sleep that you’re getting.
0:37:34 So if you are in a stage, or a phase of life
0:37:35 where things are particularly stressful,
0:37:37 keep in mind that rapid eye movement sleep
0:37:39 is when neuroplasticity and learning occur,
0:37:41 but also where we learn to uncouple
0:37:43 the emotional load of daily experiences,
0:37:46 largely through the experience of vivid dreams.
0:37:48 And this is why when people come off of cannabis,
0:37:51 they oftentimes get very, very intense dreams
0:37:53 because there’s a REM rebound.
0:37:54 So just keep that in mind,
0:37:56 but if your life is in order
0:37:57 and you’re not experiencing excessive stress,
0:38:00 and like you, you don’t have an addictive personality
0:38:03 and you like an edible every now and again,
0:38:04 you know, I never tell people what to do
0:38:06 as long as you know what you’re doing.
0:38:07 I don’t think there’s any evidence
0:38:11 that it’s bad for other aspects of health.
0:38:15 Is it going to make you better remembering things?
0:38:16 Probably not.
0:38:19 If you’re high while you’re trying to learn things,
0:38:20 and there’s a whole literature there
0:38:23 that people often misunderstand where they hear,
0:38:25 well, if you’re gonna learn on under the influence
0:38:28 of a given drug that you should then get tested
0:38:29 while under the influence of a given drug.
0:38:30 And that’s not true.
0:38:33 It just turns out that people who use a drug like alcohol
0:38:37 or cannabis consistently while studying for their bar exam,
0:38:40 just get better at cognitively performing
0:38:42 while under the influence.
0:38:44 But that’s not a reason to do more of it.
0:38:47 So I would say it sounds like you’re in a really healthy range.
0:38:49 And like I said, you’re visibly fit.
0:38:52 Your life, presumably, is more or less how you want it.
0:38:57 And so, edible a couple days a week at the appropriate dose
0:39:00 where you know you’re not gonna get past that threshold.
0:39:02 So don’t let someone give you an edible and say,
0:39:05 hey, this is great and go cookie for cookie
0:39:07 with what you normally take.
0:39:10 That’s a cautionary note.
0:39:12 – I went to this event called Summit.
0:39:14 And it’s sort of the way I describe it as learning man.
0:39:17 It’s a cross between Ted and Burning Man.
0:39:20 I actually can totally see you there speaking.
0:39:21 I’m sure they’ve asked you to speak there.
0:39:23 And I really enjoyed it.
0:39:27 It was on a cruise ship on this Virgin Cruises ship.
0:39:29 And I went up to grab a drink at the bar
0:39:30 and he said, oh my God, someone ordering alcohol.
0:39:32 And I said, what do you mean by that?
0:39:33 And he said, none of these kids,
0:39:35 you know, they’re all in their 30s high performing,
0:39:39 very successful people in the tech industry.
0:39:41 And within about 30 minutes, someone came up to me
0:39:43 and offered me mushroom chocolates.
0:39:46 And what I figured out is there’s this movement
0:39:50 among aspirational, high achieving young people
0:39:53 to substantially reduce their alcohol intake,
0:39:55 but they still wanna be high.
0:39:56 And they’re doing mushroom chocolates
0:39:58 and a mix of all kinds of other shit
0:39:59 that I couldn’t even figure out
0:40:03 or remember all the acronyms.
0:40:05 But they’re basically have decided,
0:40:06 and I think in general,
0:40:07 wealthy people wanna believe
0:40:09 they always have a better mousetrap,
0:40:12 but they had decided I’m gonna nurse one drink
0:40:14 and then I’m gonna do my mushroom chocolates
0:40:15 or something else.
0:40:18 Can you give me a sense or A, that trend
0:40:21 and B, what you think, is there an upside to it
0:40:23 or is this again, wealthy people liking to think
0:40:25 that they’ve found something better?
0:40:26 – But I don’t think it’s just wealthy people.
0:40:30 I think we’re seeing this trend away from alcohol.
0:40:31 Although there’s still a lot of this country
0:40:32 in the rest of the world
0:40:33 to now call it a regular basis.
0:40:35 And in some sense, in a healthy way, right?
0:40:39 Like shot of liquor, you know.
0:40:40 I mean, I love Russian Banyas.
0:40:42 I go to, ’cause I love sauna and cold.
0:40:45 And so if you go to a proper Russian Banya,
0:40:48 there’s not just gonna be sauna and cold.
0:40:51 The Russians there are gonna have a couple shots
0:40:53 of alcohol also.
0:40:56 So they know how to do it for them.
0:40:59 So here’s what I feel obligated to say.
0:41:02 First of all, the clinical trial data
0:41:04 on psilocybin mushrooms for the treatment
0:41:07 of major depression is very impressive,
0:41:09 but it’s still illegal.
0:41:11 And those are high dose sessions.
0:41:15 So those are people ingesting anywhere from two and a half
0:41:17 to in some cases, what’s called a heroic dose,
0:41:20 you know, five grams of psilocybin mushroom,
0:41:21 you know, five grams of psilocybin.
0:41:23 You’re what a colleague of mine who works
0:41:25 on this calls behind the circuit board.
0:41:29 You’re not like doing, I mean, it’s a very,
0:41:30 it’s an experience.
0:41:32 Not necessarily what I recommend.
0:41:34 People can get very scared in there, you know,
0:41:38 you have to work or the clinician, still illegal,
0:41:39 but there are trials.
0:41:42 The studies of higher doses have shown some very interesting
0:41:44 clinical efficacy, but it has not yet passed
0:41:47 into past FDA approval.
0:41:51 Likewise with MDMA ecstasy treatment for PTSD.
0:41:53 Right now that’s a big issue because the FDA is soon
0:41:55 going to decide, but the early recommendation
0:41:57 to them was to not approve.
0:41:59 We could talk a lot about that.
0:42:02 But micro dosing, taking lower dosages
0:42:05 of psilocybin mushroom, which by the way,
0:42:08 just activates a serotonin receptor that seems
0:42:13 to lead to more communication, let’s broadly speaking,
0:42:16 more communication at sort of like resting
0:42:18 network activity is broader.
0:42:20 The brain areas that normally we’re talking
0:42:21 to each other very little, we’re talking to each other
0:42:25 more in that kind of in the default mode.
0:42:27 That’s what some of Robin Cardard Harris’s work
0:42:29 at UCSF and others have shown.
0:42:33 And it very likely enhances the capacity
0:42:36 for neural plasticity for rewiring of neurons.
0:42:38 Now, a lot of people confuse this and think,
0:42:40 oh, well, if they just take psilocybin,
0:42:42 they’ll quote unquote get plasticity.
0:42:45 But we have to remember that plasticity is designed
0:42:46 to be a directed process.
0:42:49 You touch a hot stove, you get one trial learning
0:42:54 by way of neural plasticity that hot stoves are bad to touch.
0:42:56 Okay, that’s directed plasticity.
0:42:57 It’s adaptive.
0:43:00 When you learn a new language, it’s you sit there
0:43:03 and you have to absorb the information, make errors,
0:43:07 adjust for those errors and you get plasticity over time.
0:43:09 When you quote unquote just take a drug
0:43:12 that opens up plasticity and air quotes,
0:43:14 that’s not necessarily a good thing
0:43:16 because you’re making the brain vulnerable
0:43:19 to rewiring in a very non-specific way.
0:43:23 So this is why traditional forms and these modern forms
0:43:25 of clinical trials using psychedelics of any kind,
0:43:28 MDMA, which is more or less a psychedelic,
0:43:29 they were considered one nowadays,
0:43:32 as well as psilocybin, LSD, et cetera.
0:43:35 They’re talking to the person, they do rounds of therapy
0:43:38 with that person off the drug before and after,
0:43:41 the person’s working through something or things.
0:43:42 So it’s directed.
0:43:45 Whereas when you just take something and go experience life,
0:43:50 it’s non-specific opportunity for non-specific rewiring.
0:43:52 Now, there is zero evidence to my knowledge,
0:43:56 there’s zero evidence that microdosing can improve
0:43:59 mental state as it relates to depression or mood,
0:44:01 but people report this quite a lot.
0:44:02 And that makes a little bit of sense
0:44:06 because it augments serotonin pathways in the brain
0:44:08 through one receptor in particular.
0:44:09 But, and if you think about the major treatments
0:44:12 for depression, and these are very controversial now,
0:44:15 but the SSRI, selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors,
0:44:17 the net effect is to increase the amount of serotonin
0:44:19 at the synapse, the availability of serotonin.
0:44:22 And we know that other antidepressants,
0:44:25 which rely more on dopamine or epinephrine, et cetera,
0:44:28 that relief from depression,
0:44:29 whether or not it’s through cognitive behavioral therapy
0:44:31 alone or drug therapy or combination,
0:44:35 is a neuroplasticity phenomena.
0:44:38 It’s about reorienting the person’s thinking
0:44:40 about who they are, about what’s possible in the world,
0:44:42 about what happened or what’s likely to happen.
0:44:44 It’s about creating more optimism.
0:44:47 So it’s less about serotonin per se
0:44:50 than the opportunity to rewire the brain
0:44:53 and one’s cognitive and emotional status.
0:44:54 So when these people are saying,
0:44:56 okay, I’m gonna not drink alcohol,
0:44:59 and then instead I’m gonna take some psilocybin,
0:45:01 they’re boosting their serotonin a bit.
0:45:02 Presumably they’re also doing this
0:45:07 because the day after drinking is always a bit of a withdrawal.
0:45:10 There’s the anxiety some people refer to,
0:45:12 there’s the puffiness, a lot of it,
0:45:14 might be for aesthetic reasons.
0:45:15 You can’t sleep very well often,
0:45:17 and the sleep isn’t of high quality.
0:45:22 Let’s also face it, a lot of people make mistakes on alcohol.
0:45:24 And whether or not they make mistakes on psilocybin,
0:45:27 I don’t know, I’m sure there’s an opportunity for that.
0:45:29 Jumping off the ship would be a bad idea.
0:45:31 People have done stupid things on psychedelics,
0:45:33 but if you look at the lethal dose
0:45:34 of something like psilocybin,
0:45:38 it’s unbelievably high relative to the lethal dose of alcohol.
0:45:42 If you look at deaths and problems created by alcohol,
0:45:44 including bad decision making,
0:45:49 I mean, these are astronomical rates of bad errors
0:45:53 at every level, professional, interpersonal,
0:45:55 life damaging, life ending, et cetera.
0:45:57 So it kind of makes sense to me
0:45:59 why people would be orienting towards things
0:46:02 that have less of the danger and more, still some,
0:46:05 but more of the kind of state shifting,
0:46:07 being able to relate to people differently
0:46:08 in that elevated serotonin state,
0:46:10 they’re very likely to at least think
0:46:13 or experience a kind of more empathic engagement.
0:46:14 And we’re seeing a lot of this,
0:46:18 the episode that we did about alcohol
0:46:21 in the Huberman Lab podcast, “Humility Aside,”
0:46:23 that was the most listened to podcast episode
0:46:26 for like two years running out of all podcasts,
0:46:27 like all podcasts.
0:46:29 And I was surprised ’cause there’s somebody
0:46:31 who doesn’t really indulge in alcohol much.
0:46:33 I thought, well, we should probably just do an episode
0:46:34 about alcohol, enough people drink
0:46:36 and let people know what they’re doing,
0:46:38 but I’m not anti-alcohol.
0:46:41 And I noticed it unveiled three things.
0:46:43 One, the people who really love alcohol
0:46:45 were pissed off that they had that knowledge.
0:46:48 They’re like, “Ugh, now I know how bad it is for me.”
0:46:50 – I know, I’ve tried to ignore it.
0:46:53 There’s no ignoring the two of you, your answer.
0:46:56 – The second is that people who didn’t like drinking,
0:46:58 maybe if they have less alcohol dehydrogenase,
0:47:00 genetically, maybe they just didn’t like it,
0:47:03 they finally felt validated to say,
0:47:05 “Hey, I don’t wanna drink it terrible for me.”
0:47:07 And then, and that was a big category of people.
0:47:10 And then I think the third category is the larger group,
0:47:13 which is the people who like alcohol,
0:47:16 but they also wanna take care of their health
0:47:17 and they wanna be able to live life,
0:47:18 including maybe have a drink
0:47:21 for a very large number of years.
0:47:23 And they realized that throttling back a little bit
0:47:26 and savoring it, maybe, this is Peter’s thing,
0:47:28 maybe focusing on a higher quality alcohol,
0:47:31 or you asked what alcohols are going to be best or worse,
0:47:33 low sugar alcohols in general,
0:47:34 not because of the sugar per se,
0:47:35 but because of the hangover.
0:47:38 So like brandies and things like that,
0:47:41 cognacs are generally not as good for you
0:47:46 in terms of the hangover component as a clear vodka.
0:47:50 If I drink, I like a white tequila soda and wine.
0:47:52 That’s it, that’s like my thing.
0:47:54 Especially with Mexican food on a hot day,
0:47:55 that’s like nothing better.
0:48:00 – Coming up after the break.
0:48:03 – In my mind, there’s no reason to do TRT.
0:48:07 And a lot of kids, because of social media,
0:48:10 they see the muscles, they see the vasculature,
0:48:12 and they also, if they try it,
0:48:15 they realize that it makes effort feel good,
0:48:17 and it does increase libido vigor, et cetera,
0:48:19 but it will shut down your sperm production,
0:48:20 and it has effects on the brain.
0:48:23 – Stay with us.
0:48:30 – Support for this podcast comes from HIMS, Confidence.
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0:51:29 – What are your thoughts on testosterone replacement therapy?
0:51:30 – Yeah, I have a lot of thoughts about this.
0:51:33 So I’m 48 years old, I’m very open about this.
0:51:34 I always have been.
0:51:38 I did not touch any hormone augmentation of any kind,
0:51:40 but then at 45, I decided to run an experiment
0:51:44 taking a very low dose of testosterone sippinate,
0:51:46 but also something called HCG,
0:51:48 human chorionic gonadotropin,
0:51:50 which allows you to maintain sperm production
0:51:52 because, well, I intend to have children
0:51:54 and I don’t want to kill my sperm.
0:51:57 And basically, when you take testosterone exogenously,
0:51:58 you shut down your sperm production,
0:52:01 maybe not entirely, but it can be problematic.
0:52:03 So first things first,
0:52:04 and I’m assuming we’re talking about men here
0:52:08 because women are now doing testosterone replacement therapy
0:52:10 and low doses for libido and for vigor and other things,
0:52:12 and women make testosterone too,
0:52:15 but as long as we’re talking about men,
0:52:17 I can’t emphasize this enough.
0:52:20 Young guys, meaning if you’re younger,
0:52:21 I just don’t see how,
0:52:25 unless somebody has a hypogeladol condition,
0:52:27 which you can be tested for,
0:52:32 why males younger than 35 and probably 40,
0:52:34 if you’re doing things to take care of yourself
0:52:38 with sleep, with exercise, nutrition, managing your stress,
0:52:40 keeping your body composition,
0:52:41 you don’t have to be 5% body fat,
0:52:44 in fact, that’s probably bad for testosterone
0:52:46 for most people unless you’re naturally like that,
0:52:48 but keeping your body fat percentage somewhere
0:52:51 between 10 and 15% or something,
0:52:55 in my mind, there’s no reason to do TRT,
0:52:59 and a lot of kids, because of social media,
0:53:02 they see the muscles, they see the vasculature,
0:53:04 and they also, if they try it,
0:53:07 they realize that it makes effort feel good
0:53:09 and it does increase libido, vigor, et cetera,
0:53:11 but it will shut down your sperm production
0:53:12 and it has effects on the brain.
0:53:14 So here’s my stance on this,
0:53:16 and I’ll just again be very open about what I do.
0:53:20 I personally find that the recommended dose
0:53:23 for most people that’s kind of just out the gate
0:53:26 that these clinics do is they’ll say 200 milligrams,
0:53:27 typically of testosterone, sippianate per week,
0:53:30 so that’s one CC, one ML.
0:53:34 That for me would be like catastrophically too high.
0:53:36 I’m very sensitive to this stuff.
0:53:37 So what I highly recommend is people go
0:53:41 and get their testosterone checked and free testosterone.
0:53:44 So the range, the reference range in the US
0:53:46 is somewhere between 300 and 900 in other countries,
0:53:48 I think it goes up to 1200,
0:53:50 but keep in mind there are some people
0:53:55 who have testosterone levels of 500 or 350 or 400
0:53:58 who feel great, their libido is strong,
0:54:01 their recovery from exercise is strong, they feel great.
0:54:04 There are a number of other hormones that impact this.
0:54:06 Don’t look strictly at the number.
0:54:08 So if you’re a young person and you’re interested
0:54:11 or you’re curious about testosterone therapy,
0:54:12 please go get your blood levels checked.
0:54:14 And it is true that unless you are
0:54:17 below 300 nanograms per deciliter,
0:54:19 technically you don’t need replacement.
0:54:23 Now, if you happen to be 500 and you feel like garbage,
0:54:26 please also get your free testosterone checked, okay?
0:54:27 Because if that’s too low,
0:54:29 that means the testosterone you’re making isn’t available.
0:54:32 And if your estrogen is too high or too low,
0:54:34 this is important, well then that could be an issue,
0:54:36 meaning this is a complex scenario.
0:54:38 But what’s happening is people are just going
0:54:40 and getting on TRT and saying, oh, 900 is best.
0:54:43 Now, if someone does decide to explore
0:54:44 testosterone replacement therapy,
0:54:46 there are a couple of things to know.
0:54:49 First of all, get your blood levels checked before, during,
0:54:51 and should you decide to come off after.
0:54:52 Very open about this.
0:54:55 I was sitting, I was doing all the behaviors right,
0:54:56 as best I could.
0:54:58 Also taking a few supplements that we know
0:55:00 can slightly improve testosterone, not in a major way.
0:55:02 Things like Tonga, Dolly, Fidoja.
0:55:05 For me, increase my testosterone significantly.
0:55:07 I was sitting around 750,
0:55:09 but I was feeling some afternoon fatigue
0:55:11 that felt unusual for me.
0:55:13 And decided to run an experiment
0:55:17 of taking basically three 30 milligram dosages
0:55:20 of injectable testosterone sippinate per week.
0:55:24 And I eventually converged on something a little bit
0:55:26 similar to that, spacing it out a bit more,
0:55:28 but essentially 100 milligrams per week.
0:55:28 I feel fantastic.
0:55:33 It definitely makes effort feel great, okay?
0:55:36 Now, the problem is that’s a consequence
0:55:38 of a bit more what we call sympathetic drive,
0:55:41 which has nothing to do with sympathy, emotional sympathy.
0:55:44 It makes you kind of more forward center of mass in general.
0:55:46 It’s a higher level of stress.
0:55:47 You have to be careful you’re still managing
0:55:48 to get great sleep.
0:55:50 I also, as I mentioned, take HCG.
0:55:54 And if people want children at any point in the future,
0:55:58 and you’re gonna take testosterone at any exogenously,
0:56:01 at any level, you have to offset that with HCG,
0:56:03 which is more or less like luteinizing hormone
0:56:04 which stimulates the testes
0:56:07 to continue making their own testosterone
0:56:09 and therefore spare sperm production.
0:56:12 And or you could go bank sperm,
0:56:14 although I would strongly recommend
0:56:15 maintaining your sperm production.
0:56:18 And they’re now at home kits that allow you to discern
0:56:21 if you’re still maintaining sperm production.
0:56:22 Here’s how I feel about this.
0:56:25 Get the behaviors right, sleep, exercise, nutrition,
0:56:29 stress management, explore healthy supplementation.
0:56:30 And I would say the things for supplementation
0:56:32 that makes sense for most people who can afford it
0:56:36 are a quality fish oil, so quality omega-3s,
0:56:39 get above a gram per day of the EPA form,
0:56:42 maybe two grams for a variety of reasons.
0:56:44 Get some form of probiotic, prebiotic.
0:56:46 You could supplement this like, you know,
0:56:48 people know and often associate with AG1,
0:56:50 you can do it that way or you could eat more fruits
0:56:52 and vegetables, you know, I mean,
0:56:56 there are a number of things in addition to AG1
0:56:58 that is why I think it’s good for me.
0:57:00 But again, this is not a sales pitch for AG1.
0:57:03 This is to say, make sure your foundational nutrition
0:57:04 is gonna take a multivitamin.
0:57:07 This is basically what I’m saying if you can’t afford that.
0:57:10 And then I do think that many people can get
0:57:13 what they want without going on TRT
0:57:15 by making sure that you’re training hard,
0:57:18 but not more than an hour per session.
0:57:22 You know, if you’re gonna do TRT, yes, it’s true.
0:57:24 You can probably get a bit less sleep and still recover.
0:57:27 Because normally sleep deprivation over time
0:57:28 would diminish your testosterone levels.
0:57:30 When you’re taking it, it’s always tapped off.
0:57:32 But that’s not good either because you’re challenging
0:57:35 the heart in ways that normally wouldn’t be challenged.
0:57:37 So this could be a whole discussion,
0:57:39 but I really think that people need to pay attention
0:57:41 to the fertility piece.
0:57:43 And then to really take the minimal effect,
0:57:45 if they decide that TRT is right for them
0:57:47 to take the minimal effective dose,
0:57:49 many people think testosterone, good,
0:57:50 estrogen, bad if you’re male.
0:57:53 That is heavenly false.
0:57:56 If you crush your estrogen levels taking,
0:57:59 unless you need to reduce your estrogen levels,
0:58:01 you will have poor memory.
0:58:03 Your cardiovascular health will suffer
0:58:05 because you’re gonna have less sort of pliability
0:58:07 of the capillaries and vessels
0:58:09 that innervate your brain and body.
0:58:10 And in addition to that,
0:58:12 estrogen is critical for libido.
0:58:16 And so a lot of people who take testosterone,
0:58:18 get high levels of testosterone,
0:58:20 then crush their cortisol and/or estrogen levels
0:58:23 using pharmacology, high doses of anastrasol.
0:58:26 They might be better off taking low doses of anastrasol
0:58:28 or, which is a aromatase inhibitor,
0:58:30 you know, aromatase that converts
0:58:32 testosterone to estrogen or not at all,
0:58:36 and letting their estrogen, you know, float up a bit,
0:58:37 but be in the proper ratio
0:58:39 with that now elevated testosterone.
0:58:41 And this is so critical.
0:58:43 You know, maybe it’s because I’m male,
0:58:45 presumably I hear a lot from young guys
0:58:46 who are like, “Hey, should I get on TRT?”
0:58:48 I think that’s a big no.
0:58:51 Don’t do it until you’re doing everything else right.
0:58:53 And I’ll also say, I’ve gone off.
0:58:55 Didn’t experiment when I went off it
0:58:56 and continued to do things right.
0:58:59 And you do feel kind of achier after exercise
0:59:00 and a little bit lousy,
0:59:02 but you can come off these things.
0:59:03 You need to continue to take HCG
0:59:07 to make sure that you continue to make your own testosterone.
0:59:09 You can, you know, reactivate things.
0:59:12 But I think it was the right decision for me at 45.
0:59:15 All my other health metrics, LDLs and suffering in place.
0:59:17 And I will say this,
0:59:20 that it can provide the opportunity to do more work,
0:59:22 both cognitive and physical work.
0:59:26 And I’ll also say that it did not create a big change
0:59:27 in my body composition
0:59:28 because I had always been eating well,
0:59:29 sleeping well to begin with.
0:59:32 And I didn’t change the way that I trained that much.
0:59:34 And I’ve gone off and just kind of maintained.
0:59:37 And so I think it is definitely something
0:59:40 people are paying more attention to and trying,
0:59:42 but they need to be extremely thoughtful.
0:59:43 – What do you think of creatine?
0:59:44 – Creatine is great.
0:59:47 Creatine has a ton of literature for creatine,
0:59:50 mostly for sake of cognitive enhancement.
0:59:52 That the conditions of cognitive enhancement
0:59:54 are sort of unique in those studies,
0:59:56 often like cognitive enhancement, wallet altitude,
0:59:58 or cognitive enhancement after sleep deprivation,
0:59:59 these kinds of things.
1:00:00 But five to 10 grams,
1:00:03 and I say that because people are of different body size,
1:00:04 but it’s 100 kilograms.
1:00:07 So I take 10 grams of creatine per day.
1:00:10 I’ve been doing that since I was 16 or 18.
1:00:11 I’ll take breaks every once in a while.
1:00:15 You’ll gain five to 10 pounds of water weight
1:00:16 within your muscles,
1:00:17 mostly within the muscles when you take creatine.
1:00:20 And then you’ll urinate that out if you come off it.
1:00:21 I mentioned that because a lot of women
1:00:23 don’t want to take creatine
1:00:24 because they don’t want that extra weight,
1:00:25 but it’s mostly muscle weight.
1:00:27 And a lot of women can really benefit
1:00:29 from more muscle and strength.
1:00:31 For all the reasons we talked about before.
1:00:33 But there’s excellent data for creatine.
1:00:34 Keep in mind on a blood test,
1:00:36 your blood creatinine levels will be increased
1:00:37 if you’re supplementing creatine.
1:00:39 So don’t be alarmed.
1:00:41 But it’s very hard to get that five to 10 grams per day
1:00:44 from food sources because a big steak,
1:00:46 a big rib eye steak probably only has a couple of grams,
1:00:48 or three grams of creatine.
1:00:49 How many of those are you really gonna eat
1:00:51 without causing other issues?
1:00:53 What are your thoughts on TRT?
1:00:54 – I started doing it two or three years ago.
1:00:56 I do 80 milliliters.
1:00:57 Is it a week, injection-
1:01:01 – Wait, just ’cause people will get 80 milligrams,
1:01:03 I guess, which is a very low dose.
1:01:05 – Yeah, and the way I would describe it is,
1:01:06 I started doing it three or four years ago,
1:01:09 lost the strength of the gym, lost the muscle mass,
1:01:12 not the same virility or whatever you would call it.
1:01:16 And I just thought, and my trainer said,
1:01:20 “You’re fine, you have what you should have at 56,
1:01:23 “but why wouldn’t you take it back to 45?”
1:01:26 And I took it, and the way I would describe it,
1:01:28 Andrew is, I would say it kinda makes it
1:01:29 three to five years younger.
1:01:30 I just, weird things,
1:01:33 like I felt like my skin was a little bit different,
1:01:34 just a little stronger than the gym.
1:01:37 – Well, I feel better at 48 than I did at 25,
1:01:40 and I think that’s because I take better care of myself
1:01:41 with respect to sleep.
1:01:43 I used to work 100 hours a week.
1:01:46 I would literally, my ex-girlfriend Keegan
1:01:48 was still jokes about this from time to time,
1:01:50 like we went on so many vacations
1:01:53 where I would collapse into the laptop, meant the end.
1:01:54 Like I was working on grants,
1:01:57 where I was working as a junior professor,
1:01:58 before I got 10 years away.
1:01:59 I mean, you’re familiar with this.
1:02:01 I would literally work until I would collapse.
1:02:05 And that’s not healthy, and in my 30s too.
1:02:07 And I had a lot of vigor, but I would say,
1:02:10 TRT can definitely bring that forward.
1:02:12 I think based on conversations
1:02:14 with my colleague, Robert Sapolsky,
1:02:17 it’s clear that it makes you more like yourself.
1:02:19 So if you’re a slightly obsessive person,
1:02:20 it’s gonna make you more obsessive.
1:02:22 If you’re a very competitive person,
1:02:23 it’ll make you more competitive.
1:02:26 If you’re more altruistic and empathically tuned,
1:02:27 it will likely exacerbate that.
1:02:31 It sort of, I think it raises the tide kind of on everything.
1:02:33 It makes you what I call forward center of mass.
1:02:34 So I figure on anything,
1:02:36 we can either be back on our heels,
1:02:38 flat footed or forward center of mass.
1:02:40 And so if it’s work, you’re forward center of mass.
1:02:42 If it’s kindness, you’re forward center of mass.
1:02:44 You feel like you have more to give.
1:02:46 And that’s that elevated sympathetic drive
1:02:47 that we talked about earlier.
1:02:50 – That’s literally the best out I’ve ever heard
1:02:51 for testosterone.
1:02:52 So two quick questions.
1:02:54 You’ve been very generous with your time.
1:02:55 The first is around exercise.
1:02:57 The second one’s a professional question.
1:02:59 My dad, this is one of the nicer moments for my father.
1:03:01 My father was in the Royal Navy
1:03:03 and he had this thing called the Royal Navy Fitness Handbook.
1:03:06 And it was burpees, pull-ups, push-ups, sit-ups.
1:03:08 And we used to do that together from a very young age.
1:03:09 And it really stuck with me.
1:03:11 And I’ve been like you, I’ve been working out my whole life.
1:03:14 And I started doing it with my boys, 13 and 16.
1:03:17 I call my boy on FaceTime, who’s a boarding school.
1:03:19 And I put him through like a eight to 12 minute
1:03:21 kind of multi-dimensional, you know,
1:03:23 push-ups, some Arnold presses with the weights,
1:03:27 assisted pull-ups, cash out with some burpees.
1:03:30 Do you have any thoughts on or advice for dads
1:03:33 who are trying to get their teenage boys into working out
1:03:36 in terms of kind of the right way
1:03:38 to work out your teenage sons?
1:03:41 – Yeah, well, just to make sure I close the hatch
1:03:42 on that TRT conversation,
1:03:44 ’cause he says that an advertisement for it,
1:03:47 there are some health risks of blood pressure,
1:03:50 blood profiles and people need to think about that
1:03:52 and work with a really qualified physician.
1:03:54 – And some cancers, right?
1:03:57 Like prostate cancer, if you don’t monitor it, is that right?
1:04:00 – There’s the belief among urologists
1:04:02 is that it does not cause prostate cancer.
1:04:04 If you have a pre-existing prostate cancer,
1:04:05 it might exacerbate it.
1:04:06 When people have prostate cancers,
1:04:08 they often put them on and endrogens.
1:04:10 – But it’s also hard and brain protective, isn’t it?
1:04:12 What I’ve read, is that true?
1:04:15 – I think if you’re doing TRT properly,
1:04:18 proper dosages for you, it’s gonna be highly individualized,
1:04:20 that you’re taking care of the other hormones
1:04:22 in those pathways properly,
1:04:24 not caution them nor letting them get out of hand.
1:04:28 That you’re taking the fertility thing into consideration.
1:04:30 I think that it can be very beneficial
1:04:33 because it allows you to do the work you need to do,
1:04:35 cognitive work, the cardiovascular work.
1:04:37 I mean, if you’re running more as a consequence
1:04:40 of taking TRT and also able to do all the other things
1:04:43 in your life, then you’re net better off, right?
1:04:46 But people who take it and then get lazy about things,
1:04:48 you are net worse off.
1:04:49 Okay, now in terms of exercise,
1:04:52 I mean, I was fortunate that when I turned,
1:04:55 I was always very physical, soccer, skateboarding,
1:04:56 swimming, et cetera.
1:04:59 I was never particularly excellent at any of those sports,
1:05:02 just good enough to kind of hang in there.
1:05:04 You know, I got a girlfriend when I was 16.
1:05:06 She was a year older than I was.
1:05:08 And I heard their former boyfriend was like a football player
1:05:09 or something.
1:05:11 And I was like this skinny skateboard kid.
1:05:12 So I started doing my pushups and my pullups.
1:05:16 And I will say that, so it was the first girlfriend effect.
1:05:20 And then I found like, whoa, I really like exercise.
1:05:22 I feel like there’s a kind of direct relationship
1:05:23 between effort and outcome.
1:05:25 And I always ran also.
1:05:27 I loved, and I still love running.
1:05:29 So I would say that for young people
1:05:31 and encouraging young people to exercise,
1:05:33 find out what physical activities they really enjoy.
1:05:37 For me, it was running and I did like weightlifting.
1:05:39 So encourage them to play sports
1:05:41 because of the social dynamics
1:05:44 and to be physical with respect to, you know,
1:05:47 just fitness and thinking about fitness.
1:05:49 I think what you described as excellent, you know,
1:05:54 10 to 15 minutes daily even because they’re young, right?
1:05:56 They can recover of body weight type stuff.
1:05:58 So dips, pullups, et cetera.
1:06:02 One of the best pieces of advice I heard recently
1:06:06 and mindset advice, if he comes from a physician
1:06:09 by the name of Gabrielle Lyon, L-Y-O-N,
1:06:12 who’s a medical doctor and she knows a ton
1:06:15 about nutrition and training for men and women.
1:06:17 And her husband happens to be in the SEAL teams.
1:06:19 I have a number of friends in the community.
1:06:20 And she said, you know,
1:06:24 goals aren’t really the way to think about things.
1:06:26 Standards are the way to think about things.
1:06:29 This is very much borrowed from the military community
1:06:32 to think, as you mentioned, Navy a few minutes ago.
1:06:33 When you have a standard for yourself
1:06:36 that you should be able to do five sets of five pullups,
1:06:39 for instance, on your birthday every year, no matter what.
1:06:43 Or that you should be able to do three sets of 25 full pushups.
1:06:45 – I remember the presidential fitness awards.
1:06:46 It was like I used to train for one year,
1:06:48 I had a growth spurt, I couldn’t do the seven pullups.
1:06:49 I didn’t get the number four.
1:06:51 And I like, I’ve spent the whole year
1:06:54 trying to figure out how to get back to seven pullups.
1:06:56 – Right. And so when you have goals,
1:06:59 it’s very easy to reach a goal and then lapse, you know?
1:07:00 But when you have a standard,
1:07:01 you’re always staying above that line
1:07:04 and you have the opportunity to exceed that standard by a lot.
1:07:06 But you never let yourself drop below that standard.
1:07:09 It sets kind of an alarm on the low end
1:07:10 that’s also very high.
1:07:13 And I love this concept because it’s like,
1:07:14 you have a standard for yourself.
1:07:15 You have a standard of behavior,
1:07:18 you have a standard of fitness
1:07:21 that translates to certain activities
1:07:25 so that you never are unable to meet that standard.
1:07:25 And if you’re standard,
1:07:27 and this is a very jockel-willing-ish,
1:07:29 but if you’re standard is,
1:07:32 you’re gonna train every morning at 4.30, no matter what,
1:07:34 except those rare occasions where travel
1:07:35 or something inhibits it.
1:07:37 Well, then you’re doing it no matter what.
1:07:40 Whereas if your goal is to get up at 4.30 and train,
1:07:42 it only sets this high bar.
1:07:45 I’m sure there’s a natural psychology to this, right?
1:07:49 You know, that you need to achieve that thing
1:07:50 and then you check that box.
1:07:55 Whereas the standard means a low end critical threshold
1:07:57 that you stay above,
1:08:00 but there’s really no upper end either.
1:08:02 And I think the best situation is,
1:08:03 well, kind of like the one that sounds like happened for you
1:08:04 and certainly happened for me
1:08:06 where I discovered I love to run.
1:08:08 I mean, the only thing I’m upset about
1:08:09 about training my legs yesterday
1:08:11 is that I generally take a day off
1:08:13 after training legs to recover
1:08:15 and I wanna train again today
1:08:17 and that just feels great, right?
1:08:19 So I would suggest that they do
1:08:21 mainly body weight resistance training.
1:08:23 I know that there’s a shift now
1:08:26 toward allowing kids to do resistance training,
1:08:29 but here’s my feeling about being a young person,
1:08:30 which I was once,
1:08:33 which is that the more variety of movement
1:08:34 and sports that you do,
1:08:37 the better off you are in life and fitness.
1:08:38 All the people I know
1:08:40 who are hyper-specialized in some sport
1:08:44 don’t seem to stay with that sport a long time.
1:08:46 They get injured, they’re not fit.
1:08:48 I mean, the gymnasts are the exception
1:08:48 because they seem to do
1:08:50 all the different dynamic movements.
1:08:53 They’re strong and they have speed and they have agility.
1:08:54 But I think it’s great fun
1:08:55 to try a bunch of different sports.
1:08:57 And then if you’re an athlete,
1:08:58 sure, focus on one,
1:09:00 but with respect to fitness,
1:09:03 I’m not a huge fan of really young people’s,
1:09:05 you know, lifting heavy weights in the gym.
1:09:07 And I’m gonna get a lot of flack for this
1:09:10 because Olympic lifting is sport in its own right,
1:09:13 but I didn’t really start lifting heavy
1:09:14 until I was in my 20s.
1:09:16 And that for me was like,
1:09:19 I’ve never gone below three repetitions of anything.
1:09:21 So I’ve never done a single rep max of anything.
1:09:22 And people always go, there’s no way that’s true.
1:09:24 And it’s absolutely true.
1:09:25 I’m interested in using it as a tool
1:09:27 to accomplish something,
1:09:29 strengthen in some cases hypertrophy
1:09:32 and staying healthy is my main focus now.
1:09:34 And I will say this,
1:09:36 I got laughed at, teased in college
1:09:39 because I’d be out for a run on mornings
1:09:40 where everyone else was doing their kind of Sunday,
1:09:42 fun day drinking.
1:09:44 I got teased for studying
1:09:46 when other people were kicking back.
1:09:49 When I was a professor and I would go to meetings,
1:09:51 I would sneak off to the gym at lunch hour
1:09:54 ’cause I couldn’t sit all day without losing my mind.
1:09:57 And one day I was in the gym at Cold Spring Harbor laboratories
1:09:59 in New York, this is where people go for meetings.
1:10:01 And it’s kind of a science summer camp.
1:10:05 And one of the most successful biologists in the world
1:10:07 still came into the gym and I was like,
1:10:08 oh, and I was sort of embarrassed.
1:10:09 Like I’d been caught doing something.
1:10:12 And I said, wait a second, this is your meeting.
1:10:13 And he said, yeah, you know,
1:10:15 I can’t be in these meetings all day.
1:10:16 It drives me crazy.
1:10:17 And I looked at him and I’m like, okay,
1:10:18 this guy has great posture.
1:10:19 He’s fit.
1:10:21 He was in his mid sixties then.
1:10:22 He’s still that way now.
1:10:25 I thought to myself, okay, here I’ve been like
1:10:27 guiltfully running off to exercise to take care of myself.
1:10:29 The culture has changed a little bit now.
1:10:33 But if you’re in whatever dominant culture is around you,
1:10:34 beware, that’s what I always say.
1:10:37 Even if you’re hanging out with rebels, beware, right?
1:10:40 You know, it’s good sometimes to rebel against the rebels,
1:10:41 right?
1:10:42 Just keep it.
1:10:44 It’s not just about independence of thought.
1:10:46 It’s that develop habits that you know are good for you.
1:10:49 And when the dominant culture is, you know,
1:10:51 dude, why are you working out or why are you studying?
1:10:54 Like, trust me, and you can tell your sons this.
1:10:56 I know you know this for yourself in five, 10 years.
1:10:58 People are gonna be coming to you for advice
1:11:00 because they’re the ones carrying 40 pounds of extra weight
1:11:03 or 20 pounds of extra weight or their libido is shot
1:11:05 or they’re wondering why they hate their job
1:11:06 or their relationship.
1:11:08 And I’m not saying that I had all the answers,
1:11:10 but I’ve noticed that the people who are willing
1:11:12 to take really good care of themselves
1:11:13 and not in a vain way.
1:11:14 This isn’t about vanity.
1:11:17 It’s taking care of yourself so that you can do more
1:11:21 in the world for other people, especially,
1:11:21 but also for yourself.
1:11:24 Like be the strong one who can help other people.
1:11:27 And once your sons, I think, realize that they’re gonna be
1:11:30 the best version of themselves for themselves,
1:11:32 but also they’re gonna be the go-to person
1:11:35 that can help everybody in whatever domain
1:11:36 they happen to be in.
1:11:38 I think that feedback loop is so powerful
1:11:42 because you feel like, wow, I understand what self-care is.
1:11:45 I can refill the gas tank just through these behaviors.
1:11:49 – Last question, at the end of in the ’40s,
1:11:52 after World War II, physicists became celebrities,
1:11:54 Einstein, Teller, Oppenheimer.
1:11:56 I feel like we’re having a little bit of that moment
1:11:58 where neuroscientists, I think of you and Sam Harris,
1:12:01 are becoming famous.
1:12:03 And Sam, more on the philosophical side,
1:12:06 you more on the optimization of almost like
1:12:08 how to live a better life through fitness
1:12:11 or just optimizing, I mean, thoughtful about your nutrition,
1:12:13 your sleep, your fitness.
1:12:14 I get, I don’t know if you get these calls.
1:12:16 I get these calls from other faculty at other universities
1:12:18 and they, in as polite a way as possible,
1:12:22 try to say to me, my research and domain expertise
1:12:24 has so much more heft and depth than yours,
1:12:27 yet you’re so much more successful than me.
1:12:30 Can you advise me on what I need to do?
1:12:32 You’ve got to be one of the most famous
1:12:34 and successful, most influential,
1:12:39 creating great economic security for you and your family.
1:12:42 Can you give any advice around what were some,
1:12:44 if there are any hacks or best practices?
1:12:46 We’ve talked a lot about optimizing for fitness.
1:12:50 Talk about now optimizing for someone who is credentialed,
1:12:54 who has expertise, but wants to be Andrew Huberman.
1:12:57 What are the two or three hacks, platforms,
1:13:00 best practices that took you from a neuroscientist
1:13:04 to someone who’s had a really remarkable influence?
1:13:05 – Thanks for the question.
1:13:08 So my dad’s a physicist and so I grew up hearing
1:13:10 about the golden age of physics and, you know,
1:13:13 Feynman and like Gelman and all that.
1:13:15 And I think the interest in physics is,
1:13:17 you know, physics is everywhere, right?
1:13:21 And so it’s universal and explained correctly
1:13:24 is really enchanting.
1:13:26 The brain and neuroscience is everything, right?
1:13:29 It’s sadness, it’s grief, it’s happiness, it’s depression,
1:13:33 it’s addiction, it’s fitness, it’s all of that.
1:13:34 And so it’s universal.
1:13:36 And I would say that we’re now also entering the age
1:13:41 of where math and AI are gonna become really important
1:13:42 for public discourse.
1:13:45 So I would say the following.
1:13:48 And as a fellow academic, you know that, you know,
1:13:50 when one sticks their neck out there publicly,
1:13:52 like I understand there are gonna be people
1:13:55 in the academic community who are happy about that
1:13:57 and Stanford has been immensely supportive,
1:13:58 immensely supportive.
1:14:00 And I’m very grateful for that.
1:14:01 There will be people who are critical
1:14:03 around specific points or the general idea
1:14:06 of somebody doing what I do or what you do.
1:14:08 There will be people who feel that way
1:14:10 because of jealousy, there will be people who feel that way
1:14:12 because they genuinely feel like it’s not being packaged
1:14:14 or delivered in the way that they would prefer.
1:14:16 And that’s all fine and good.
1:14:17 I would say point number one is
1:14:19 if you’re going to be public facing,
1:14:22 as you know, you’re not gonna satisfy all those people.
1:14:23 You’re just not.
1:14:26 At the same time, I think people can feel intention.
1:14:29 You know, I think people sometimes focus,
1:14:31 there’s kind of a gravitational pull around
1:14:35 like cold plunges and supplements and weight lifting
1:14:38 that I think sometimes interesting topics
1:14:39 that I really enjoy.
1:14:41 And then each one has an interesting science
1:14:44 and then discussion around it, which I thoroughly enjoy.
1:14:46 But I think sometimes they overlook the fact
1:14:49 that like 90% of what I talked about on the podcast
1:14:52 is about neural mechanisms, endocrine mechanisms.
1:14:54 I’ve worked on cold physiology
1:14:57 and to try and teach biology and the package
1:15:00 in sort of protocols for health
1:15:02 and then teach protocols for health
1:15:04 in a way to people who are interested in that.
1:15:06 And then also, you know, get them in a bit enchanted,
1:15:08 hopefully about biology.
1:15:10 But the number one takeaway for people
1:15:12 that want to do some public facing work
1:15:17 or to allow people to appreciate what they do
1:15:20 is they, I can’t emphasize this enough
1:15:22 if I could like put this on a billboard in Times Square,
1:15:25 I would accept no one who looks at billboards anymore.
1:15:29 You have to be the pure version of yourself.
1:15:32 And this is why not everyone does this.
1:15:34 So I have, I’m gonna sound like a name dropper
1:15:35 but I’m very fortunate to be close friends,
1:15:36 very close friends.
1:15:38 We communicate daily with Rick Rubin,
1:15:41 like the Rick Rubin from NYU, right?
1:15:42 For the start of record label,
1:15:44 it worked out well at NYU.
1:15:45 And Rick understands this,
1:15:48 that there’s a certain energy that people have
1:15:51 when they’re really engaging in things in its pure form.
1:15:53 They’re not thinking, are people gonna like this song?
1:15:57 Is it gonna be top chart song like the last one?
1:15:58 Are people gonna like this podcast?
1:16:01 It’s just like, I’m a very curious person
1:16:03 and I’ve lived a life of adventure.
1:16:05 One of my heroes, I have several,
1:16:08 Joe Strummer being one of them
1:16:10 and the great Oliver Sacks being another, right?
1:16:13 A neurologist, public facing author
1:16:14 who was also ridiculed by the way
1:16:17 for doing what he did until he became famous enough
1:16:19 that then he got appointments at multiple universities.
1:16:20 They kind of came back for it.
1:16:22 Very interesting story.
1:16:24 And Oliver was a very curious person.
1:16:26 They once said, it’s in his book.
1:16:28 It says, you know, Oliver will go far
1:16:30 provided he doesn’t go too far.
1:16:31 He was a methamphetamine addict.
1:16:32 He was interested in bodybuilding.
1:16:34 He was also a closet homosexual
1:16:36 and that came out at the end when he, you know,
1:16:39 and he had a bunch of things about his personal life
1:16:43 that explained sort of, you know, not just that
1:16:44 but explained who he was in a big way
1:16:47 but up until then he was just Oliver being Oliver.
1:16:48 He loved sea creatures.
1:16:51 He was always talking about the things he loves.
1:16:54 I’m a very curious person and I love adventure.
1:16:56 And I grew up basically
1:16:58 because of my family structure changing
1:17:01 in a big pack of guys, some female friends as well.
1:17:02 That’s kind of driven my life.
1:17:05 I’ve interacted with people at the kind of extremes
1:17:07 of adventure and extremes of career
1:17:09 in fitness and health and science.
1:17:12 And so what I bring forward is my,
1:17:16 it feels innate desire to learn, organize
1:17:20 and disperse information that I find very useful
1:17:22 for mental health, physical health and performance
1:17:25 along those adventures that are just simply my life.
1:17:28 So I’m just being Andrew Huberman.
1:17:30 And I’ll come right out and say, you know,
1:17:31 people say all sorts of things.
1:17:32 They’ve said all sorts of things about me,
1:17:35 good and bad and everything in between.
1:17:37 But what I just said, it like really describes
1:17:39 who I am at my essence.
1:17:43 And if somebody is like an entomologist
1:17:48 or works on, I don’t know, like a lipid signaling
1:17:51 in the gut or whatever people study,
1:17:55 if they can tap into like the essence of why they do that
1:17:58 and then teach it from that pure place,
1:18:01 they will be potentially the biggest podcast in the world,
1:18:03 the best selling book in the world.
1:18:05 So it’s not so much the subject matter
1:18:07 as the energy that one brings to it,
1:18:10 but that energy as Rick has pointed out over and over again,
1:18:11 and this is why he’s so successful,
1:18:13 cannot be manufactured.
1:18:15 Whatever it is that makes you,
1:18:18 you, your relationship with your father,
1:18:21 your interest in fitness, your appreciation
1:18:23 for what young people are now going through
1:18:25 and the challenges they face, the desire to like,
1:18:28 you’re just being Scott in the world.
1:18:30 And that’s why people orient toward you.
1:18:31 And so these colleagues that are like,
1:18:35 wait, why is it that Huberman and Galloway and Harris
1:18:37 are like, well, ’cause Sam’s just being Sam.
1:18:39 So I think you just,
1:18:42 it’s the enthusiasm and the energy that one brings to it.
1:18:45 And if there’s a universal quality to that,
1:18:48 then sure, it will have bigger reach.
1:18:51 But ultimately, like this is kind of how all public facing
1:18:54 intellectuals, scientists, health, you know,
1:18:55 they call us influencers,
1:18:57 but that’s kind of like unfair at some level
1:18:59 because it’s really about like the passion
1:19:01 and energy that you bring to it.
1:19:02 This is a long-winded question.
1:19:03 You asked for a half,
1:19:05 but I would say these people need to be them
1:19:06 and if being them is sitting in their office
1:19:08 and kind of like grinding away
1:19:10 on why someone else has something and they don’t,
1:19:11 well, then guess what?
1:19:12 They’re exactly where they belong.
1:19:14 – Andrew Huberman is a neuroscientist
1:19:17 and tenured professor in the Department of Neurobiology
1:19:20 and by courtesy, psychiatry and behavioral sciences
1:19:22 at Stanford School of Medicine.
1:19:24 His laboratory’s most recent work focuses
1:19:27 on the influence of vision and respiration on brain states,
1:19:29 such as fear and high attention focus
1:19:31 and developing rapid and effective tools
1:19:34 for mitigating stress, improving sleep
1:19:36 and other physiological metrics.
1:19:39 Andrew’s popular podcast, The Huberman Lab Podcast,
1:19:42 is often ranked in the global top 10
1:19:44 and frequently listed as the number one show
1:19:47 in science, education and health and fitness.
1:19:50 He joins us from Los Angeles.
1:19:52 Andrew, like there’s a lot of big podcasts
1:19:54 that are having a lot of influence.
1:19:58 I think having an impact around people’s physical fitness
1:20:00 and feeling good about themselves
1:20:03 and feeling strong and feeling attractive
1:20:04 and feeling healthy.
1:20:06 I really think what you’re doing is profound.
1:20:10 So it’s just great to see your ascent and the influence.
1:20:14 I think you’re doing really good work
1:20:18 and it feels like you are exactly what you said.
1:20:20 It’s so rewarding to see someone doing exactly
1:20:22 what they should be doing and I think you’re doing that.
1:20:24 So really appreciate your time.
1:20:25 – Oh, thank you.
1:20:28 I’ve really enjoyed that conversation.
1:20:31 I hope we can further it on or off, Mike, in the future.
1:20:35 And I think of you as somebody who’s posing those conversations
1:20:36 in a way that has an optimism to it.
1:20:39 Like there are solutions and I’m an optimist too.
1:20:40 So that resonates.
1:20:41 So thanks so much for hosting me.
1:20:42 I really enjoyed it.
1:20:43 – It’s our pleasure, Andrew.
1:20:44 Thanks, brother.
1:20:50 – This episode was produced by Caroline Shagren.
1:20:52 Jennifer Sanchez is our associate producer
1:20:54 and Drew Burroughs is our technical director.
1:20:55 Thank you for listening to the Prop G Pub
1:20:57 from the Vox Media Podcast Network.
1:20:59 We will catch you on Saturday
1:21:01 for No Mercy, No Malice as read by George Hahn.
1:21:04 And please follow our Prop G Markets pod
1:21:06 wherever you get your pods for new episodes
1:21:08 every Monday and Thursday.

0:00:02 (upbeat music)
0:00:05 Support for this special series comes from Mint Mobile.
0:00:07 If you’re looking for expert insights
0:00:09 on matters of business, career, and family,
0:00:11 you’ve come to the right place.
0:00:14 Office hours are open and ProfG is in.
0:00:16 Now, if you’re looking for advice on how to save
0:00:18 on your cell phone bill each month,
0:00:20 you’ve come to the right place again.
0:00:22 You might not expect a cell provider
0:00:24 to be the expert in saving money,
0:00:28 but Mint Mobile offers premium plans at an affordable price.
0:00:32 Head to mintmobile.com/profg to learn more
0:00:33 and stick around for parenting advice
0:00:36 from another unexpected expert.
0:00:37 A free diver?
0:00:43 – Welcome to the final episode of the ProfG pod special series
0:00:46 featuring some of our favorite office hours moments.
0:00:47 In last week’s episode,
0:00:49 we featured office hours best of career
0:00:51 and answered your questions surrounding
0:00:52 how to ask for a promotion at work,
0:00:54 when and if you should ditch your full-time job
0:00:55 for your side hustle
0:00:57 and went to quit your job entirely.
0:00:59 (beep)
0:01:01 Establish a relationship with a mentor or your boss
0:01:04 such that it’s informal enough, such you could say,
0:01:06 which of my expectations be around a bonus
0:01:09 or how are bonuses evaluated?
0:01:11 If you want economic security,
0:01:14 find something that satisfies you to the extent
0:01:16 that you don’t feel the need to do a side hustle
0:01:18 and go all in on it.
0:01:20 Once you’re out of the job market for longer than a year,
0:01:21 you begin to smell.
0:01:22 I know how terrible that sounds.
0:01:23 And I was feeling like, what is wrong
0:01:25 and your skills begin to atrophy.
0:01:28 Today, you’ll hear best of parenting.
0:01:29 After that, we’ll be featuring an interview
0:01:32 with Dr. Shafali, a New York Times bestselling author
0:01:35 of “The Conscious Parent” and “The Awakened Family.”
0:01:38 She’s also a clinical psychologist, parenting expert,
0:01:40 and international speaker and a wisdom teacher
0:01:44 who integrates Eastern philosophy with Western psychology.
0:01:46 So with that, first question.
0:01:48 – Hi, Scott, this is Jen calling from Toronto.
0:01:50 I have a 12-year-old daughter.
0:01:52 And this is the first year that she’s had her on cell phone.
0:01:55 And it seems that this is the year that, quote unquote,
0:01:59 everyone in her class is on social media.
0:02:00 She doesn’t have social media yet
0:02:04 and hasn’t really expressed much of an interest.
0:02:06 However, my husband and I have told her
0:02:09 that when she does want it, she should let us know.
0:02:11 And we will talk to her about it
0:02:13 and introduce her to it together.
0:02:16 So I would love your thoughts on two things.
0:02:18 One is, how would you recommend we introduce her
0:02:20 to social media?
0:02:22 What warnings or guiding principles
0:02:24 would you share with her?
0:02:28 And how would you frame the potential dangers for her?
0:02:31 And number two, what rules and monitoring
0:02:34 would you put into place around her usage
0:02:36 in the first couple of years?
0:02:37 And would you be transparent with her
0:02:40 about how we’re going to monitor her activity?
0:02:41 Would love your thoughts on that.
0:02:43 Thanks so very much.
0:02:44 Really appreciate it.
0:02:47 – Jen from Toronto, thanks so much for the question.
0:02:50 And let me be clear, we have not figured this out.
0:02:52 One of my sons developed device addiction.
0:02:53 You’d think I’d be the last person
0:02:55 that would let that happen
0:02:56 ’cause I braille on these companies
0:02:58 and yet we woke up one day
0:02:59 and realized our son was really struggling
0:03:02 and it was because of device addiction.
0:03:06 In addition, I think that both my kids are,
0:03:10 especially one of them is showing semi-addictive behavior
0:03:12 to social media platforms.
0:03:14 The research is this clear.
0:03:15 It’s worse for you, crack frankly,
0:03:18 ’cause you have girls, boys bully physically
0:03:20 and verbally, girls bully relationally,
0:03:21 and we have put these nuclear weapons in our hands
0:03:22 called the smartphone.
0:03:26 And once social went on mobile in 2012,
0:03:28 the hospital admissions for self-cutting, self-harm,
0:03:30 teen depression, teen suicide,
0:03:32 skyrocketed for girls
0:03:36 and escalated dramatically for boys.
0:03:39 So my first piece of advice is if your daughter
0:03:41 is not asking for these things,
0:03:46 my general advice is to keep them off of it
0:03:48 as long as possible.
0:03:50 And here’s the hard part.
0:03:52 When people say, well, okay,
0:03:55 your kids struggling from social media or depressed,
0:03:56 that’s your fault.
0:03:58 They recommend the dosing.
0:04:00 They recommend, well, it’s about parental involvement.
0:04:02 Anyone who says that doesn’t have kids
0:04:05 because the most recent research,
0:04:08 I believe it’s from Gene Twenge and Jonathan Hyde,
0:04:10 is there’s something called the cohort effect.
0:04:14 And that is once everyone is on SNAP,
0:04:15 when you’re the kid that’s not on it
0:04:17 because you don’t have to modulate it
0:04:19 or it really attacks your self-esteem,
0:04:21 you in fact become very depressed
0:04:24 because you are ostracized and you are isolated
0:04:26 and sequestered from the rest of your peer groups.
0:04:28 So there’s kind of no winning.
0:04:32 And what Professor Hyde has advocated for,
0:04:33 and I think is absolutely right,
0:04:36 is to have schools ban phones up until a certain age.
0:04:38 Now, assuming at some point,
0:04:40 she does enter the brave new world
0:04:43 of smartphones and social,
0:04:44 I can tell you what we do.
0:04:46 And that is they are not allowed to take their phones
0:04:48 into the room at night.
0:04:49 There’s been a lot of studies showing
0:04:52 that a lot of kids or the number of teens
0:04:54 who are sleep-defrived has escalated
0:04:56 because their phone is next to them,
0:04:57 they hear buzz, they pick it up,
0:04:59 they start talking to their friends,
0:05:02 and it goes downhill from there.
0:05:04 Also, we try and limit the amount of screen time,
0:05:07 we try, we’re not great at it.
0:05:09 And also, and this sounds very 1984,
0:05:12 and initially we didn’t do it,
0:05:15 but now we do it, we check their accounts
0:05:16 and we check their content.
0:05:19 I have wonderful boys that are really well-behaved,
0:05:22 and I’ve had already two incidences,
0:05:27 one involving bullying and two around really ugly language
0:05:31 that my kids were not directly involved in,
0:05:32 but part of a circle.
0:05:34 And it’s just, I mean,
0:05:38 wouldn’t you like to find the people who invented this shit
0:05:40 and just kick them in the nuts a few thousand times?
0:05:43 It really has been a net negative.
0:05:46 I think it’s especially bad for girls
0:05:48 because the notion,
0:05:50 I don’t think we can even imagine what it’s like
0:05:51 to be faced with your full self,
0:05:55 to be presented with your full self 24 by seven.
0:05:56 And then you have algorithms
0:05:58 that encourage you to say outrageous things
0:06:01 or that overly sexualize young girls,
0:06:03 specifically Instagram.
0:06:06 I mean, the deck is just so stacked against them.
0:06:08 For me, what I try and do with my boys,
0:06:09 ’cause I think my boys have an easier time
0:06:12 relating to me on certain things than they do their mother.
0:06:14 I sit ’em down, I try and sit ’em down once a week.
0:06:15 I’m like, what’s going on with you?
0:06:16 Are you doing okay?
0:06:20 And what I try to communicate is that,
0:06:24 look, if something bad happens online, this is the deal.
0:06:25 I’m gonna try and be generous
0:06:27 and not judge you and not get mad at you.
0:06:29 Maybe you do something really stupid here
0:06:30 and something bad happens.
0:06:33 I’m gonna give you a bit of a hall pass on this stuff.
0:06:34 And in exchange for that hall pass,
0:06:36 you’re gonna come to me when something happens
0:06:37 that upsets you.
0:06:40 Because what you don’t want,
0:06:42 and we’re real tragedy strikes here,
0:06:45 is that something bad happens online
0:06:47 and the kids suffer in isolation
0:06:49 and the parents don’t even know about it.
0:06:51 They don’t even know about it.
0:06:55 A kid gets bullied online, starts having suicidal ideation,
0:06:56 goes down a rabbit hole at night
0:06:59 and the parents don’t even know what is going on.
0:07:02 Because if your kid develops an addiction to meth
0:07:07 or alcohol or shoplifting, you find out about it.
0:07:09 I mean, there’s just certain externalities,
0:07:11 there’s certain functions of those behaviors,
0:07:13 there’s certain ramifications.
0:07:14 The kid has an addiction to alcohol.
0:07:17 Before you know it, you’re gonna figure it out, right?
0:07:17 So you can intervene.
0:07:21 That’s the dangerous thing about these insidious devices
0:07:24 is that a lot of times the bullying,
0:07:26 the mental health issues can pop up
0:07:29 and get very bad very fast without you even knowing.
0:07:33 So let me finish where I started.
0:07:34 I know our household hasn’t gotten this figured out.
0:07:38 And congratulations, if she’s not asking for it,
0:07:41 I just don’t think you’re gonna regret
0:07:43 your 12-year-old daughter not having a smartphone
0:07:44 or being on social.
0:07:47 If she shows up a little bit late to it,
0:07:49 I showed up a little bit late to alcohol and drugs.
0:07:51 I enjoyed both of those things,
0:07:53 but I’m glad I didn’t do any of those things
0:07:55 until I was in college.
0:07:56 And I think we’re gonna look back
0:07:59 and the one thing we’re gonna regret most about tech,
0:08:02 big tech, is not that they weaponized our elections,
0:08:04 not that they made our discourse more coarse,
0:08:06 not that they created more income inequality,
0:08:08 not that they abused the monopoly power.
0:08:10 We’re gonna look back on this era
0:08:14 and we’re gonna say how did we let this happen to our kids?
0:08:16 So Jen, you are thinking the right way.
0:08:19 I think you need to be all over this stuff.
0:08:20 Appreciate the question.
0:08:21 Best of luck to you and yours.
0:08:24 Question number two.
0:08:26 – D.F. Prachji, this is Dr. C. from Toronto, Canada
0:08:28 and Sao Paulo, Brazil.
0:08:30 I have just listened to your episode
0:08:32 in which you explain why storytelling
0:08:34 is the most underrated,
0:08:35 yet perhaps the most important skill
0:08:37 we should be teaching our children.
0:08:39 I couldn’t agree more.
0:08:41 After 22 years of management consulting,
0:08:43 including eight years as a partner,
0:08:45 I got to see the upside of superior storytelling.
0:08:47 This is in essence what partners do
0:08:49 in consulting or investment banking
0:08:51 or any other senior positions.
0:08:53 As a parent, on the other hand,
0:08:56 I have been experiencing mostly the downside of storytelling,
0:08:59 either in the form of honest incompetence,
0:09:00 when there is subpar fact-checking
0:09:02 or no fact-checking at all,
0:09:05 or dishonesty in the form of misinformation.
0:09:07 This honest storytelling is certainly
0:09:10 what populists and/or dictators do best.
0:09:12 Given the downside of storytelling,
0:09:13 I have two questions for you.
0:09:15 First, what do you do as a parent
0:09:17 so that your child can become
0:09:19 a sabbier consumer of stories?
0:09:21 And second, as an educator,
0:09:24 do you think universities should do more
0:09:27 on how to become better consumers of stories?
0:09:30 Thank you for your wonderful podcast series.
0:09:32 – This is a thoughtful question, Dr. C,
0:09:33 that touches on a bunch of things.
0:09:36 There’s raising kids to be good storytellers
0:09:38 and then there’s sort of this post-truth world
0:09:39 that we’re entering that’s really,
0:09:41 or entered that’s really unfortunate.
0:09:44 As it relates to raising storytellers,
0:09:45 or good storytellers,
0:09:47 I remember thinking,
0:09:49 I do so much virtue signaling on this program
0:09:52 and I pretend to be such a better father than I actually am
0:09:53 and I’ve been talking about
0:09:55 how important storytelling is for a while.
0:09:55 I’m like, well, okay, boss,
0:09:57 what are you actually doing about it
0:09:59 to try and help your kids be better storytellers?
0:10:01 So I’ve been doing dumb things,
0:10:05 like at dinner when my 12-year-old won’t be quiet,
0:10:07 but my 15-year-old won’t say anything.
0:10:10 I tasked the 15-year-old with starting a conversation.
0:10:11 When they’re telling me stuff,
0:10:12 I asked them to continue.
0:10:13 What I’m gonna start doing,
0:10:14 I haven’t done it yet,
0:10:17 is to actually come up with stories.
0:10:18 I started by telling them stories
0:10:21 of their grandparents having met,
0:10:22 immigrating from Britain,
0:10:25 moving to Canada,
0:10:28 their drive across the US in an Austin mini-metro
0:10:30 when my mom was seven months pregnant
0:10:31 and they’re enthralled by it
0:10:33 and I think that them hearing stories,
0:10:36 I hope, gets them to be better storytellers.
0:10:38 The schools I’ll give it to them
0:10:39 are trying to pull that out of them.
0:10:42 My son went to this wonderful school,
0:10:44 or my son’s called Gulfstream,
0:10:45 and their eighth grade,
0:10:47 every eighth grader has to stand up
0:10:49 in front of the entire community of the school,
0:10:50 including the parents,
0:10:52 and do a 10 or 15 minute talk.
0:10:57 And my son did his talk on the whaling industry
0:10:59 and then tuck it.
0:11:01 God, could that be a wider topic?
0:11:04 Seriously, my son just felt exceptionally Caucasian
0:11:05 and privileged.
0:11:07 Anyways, and it’s great,
0:11:09 and he thinks about it,
0:11:10 and he has to do it with slides,
0:11:13 and he’s nervous about it,
0:11:14 and it’s hard for a 13 year old
0:11:16 to stand up in front of people.
0:11:19 The only competence I have is communications.
0:11:21 I know how to communicate,
0:11:22 I know how to write,
0:11:23 I know how to put together slides,
0:11:25 I know how to, a good twister phrase, right?
0:11:28 And that is how I’ve made my living.
0:11:30 And I immediately recognize with younger people,
0:11:33 that they have to be able to be good storytellers
0:11:35 if they want them to be a business for consulting.
0:11:37 If you’re really amazing with technology,
0:11:38 but you can’t spend a story,
0:11:40 that’s the COO or the CTO Max,
0:11:43 you can be less good in a great storyteller,
0:11:45 and you call that woman CEO.
0:11:47 The ability to communicate your ideas
0:11:49 and attract capital, human and financial,
0:11:51 is the whole shooting match.
0:11:53 How do you get people to be good storytellers?
0:11:55 One is practice, two is different mediums.
0:11:57 I would start with the written word.
0:12:00 I think if you can express your thoughts cogently
0:12:01 by writing them out,
0:12:04 the other stuff’s gonna get much easier.
0:12:05 And then just practice,
0:12:08 and specifically a lot of confidence and trial and error
0:12:10 around speaking in front of people.
0:12:13 And I’m credited with being a good communicator
0:12:14 and a good speaker,
0:12:15 I get paid a lot of money to speak,
0:12:19 and I have panic attacks.
0:12:21 Sometimes I get so fucking nervous and I freak out
0:12:24 and I get on stage and I start talking,
0:12:28 and I start gasping and swallowing air,
0:12:29 and I feel as if I’m dying
0:12:31 and the whole audience freaks out
0:12:34 because I look like I’m in the midst of a heart attack.
0:12:36 And so if you’re nervous in front of people,
0:12:38 if you think I can just never do it
0:12:39 and I need to avoid it,
0:12:43 think again, think again.
0:12:47 This is how I make my living and I get panic attacks.
0:12:48 And you have to get over it.
0:12:49 You have to figure it out.
0:12:52 I’m not suggesting you’re gonna be Tony Robbins, right?
0:12:55 I’m not suggesting you’re gonna be Maya Angelou,
0:12:57 but you gotta have a certain minimum
0:13:00 acceptable presentation skills.
0:13:02 It’s painful, take classes, go to Toastmasters,
0:13:04 whatever you need to do.
0:13:06 I am trying to figure out a way
0:13:08 to put my kids in context where they get more of that
0:13:12 and more experience at that, creative writing, et cetera.
0:13:13 The second part of your question,
0:13:15 I’m really worried about a post-truth world.
0:13:17 The biggest fear I have about generative AI
0:13:18 is I would say, okay,
0:13:22 give me 10 tweets about how vaccines alter your DNA
0:13:24 that sound real and like they came
0:13:28 from a medical established agency or a medical think tank.
0:13:31 And it’ll produce 10 tweets that are false,
0:13:35 have no scientific verification or scientific veracity,
0:13:37 but sound kind of real.
0:13:40 And veracity has really become a function
0:13:43 of who is the loudest and who has the biggest following,
0:13:44 right?
0:13:46 If Donald Trump says a lie long enough,
0:13:47 it starts to become less of a lie.
0:13:49 What do we do about that?
0:13:52 I don’t know, invest in organizations
0:13:54 that have fact-checking,
0:13:58 whether it’s the Wall Street Journal or PBS or the BBC
0:14:01 or, you know, love ’em or hate ’em,
0:14:02 the Post and the New York Times,
0:14:03 they have a viewpoint,
0:14:08 but they do take fact-checking very seriously.
0:14:09 Don’t advertise on Fox News,
0:14:11 that should be called Fox Entertainment
0:14:13 where the anchors coordinate to spread information
0:14:14 and lies that they know or lies
0:14:16 because they think it’ll inflame their audience
0:14:19 and sell more hearing aids.
0:14:21 I mean, that bullshit is really, that’s mendacious.
0:14:25 That’s an abuse of your position and society.
0:14:27 What else can we do?
0:14:29 Remove section 230 or have carve-outs
0:14:30 such that these social media algorithms,
0:14:34 if they are circulating lies that result in teen depression
0:14:36 or misuse of medical treatment
0:14:38 or a belief that an election is rigged
0:14:39 when they know it’s not rigged,
0:14:41 they should have the same type of liability
0:14:43 they have out now with a carve-out around sex trafficking.
0:14:45 If you put information on Facebook,
0:14:48 the results and the trafficking of a minor meta is liable.
0:14:50 And guess what, it reduced it a lot.
0:14:53 So do we want to reduce election misinformation,
0:14:56 vaccine misinformation, medical information,
0:15:00 data or content that gives kids suicidal ideation?
0:15:02 Oh, no, it’d be too complex.
0:15:03 No, you could do it.
0:15:04 They could absolutely do it.
0:15:07 Just give them financial incentive to do it.
0:15:09 And some, I haven’t figured this out,
0:15:11 but I recognize the importance.
0:15:12 I’m trying to do some things
0:15:14 that help my kids develop those skills.
0:15:16 Some of them are uncomfortable.
0:15:17 I don’t have definitive answers.
0:15:20 I just know if we want to appreciate the truth,
0:15:23 we have to appreciate the truth
0:15:25 and reward those that are fact-checking
0:15:27 and punish those that believe
0:15:29 they can turn a lie into the truth
0:15:30 by just telling it over and over.
0:15:32 Thanks for the question.
0:15:35 Dr. C from Toronto, the friendly, clean Canada.
0:15:36 Go Leafs!
0:15:37 Go Leafs!
0:15:40 We’ll be right back for a conversation
0:15:41 with Dr. Shipollet.
0:15:48 Fox Creative.
0:15:51 This is Advertiser Content from Mint Mobile.
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0:16:03 to see how long I can last at depth without oxygen.
0:16:06 And I do feel the pressure now and then, you know?
0:16:08 I mean, when you’re 40 feet underwater,
0:16:11 feeling about 17 pounds per square inch,
0:16:13 it’s kind of unavoidable.
0:16:15 But you want to know about pressure?
0:16:17 Try being a parent.
0:16:19 Your kid’s screaming at you that he wants a quesadilla.
0:16:21 So you bring him one and he says,
0:16:23 “Not that kind!
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0:16:30 The key is to stay cool.
0:16:32 Block out the noise.
0:16:34 Because much like parenting,
0:16:37 free diving is about living in the moment.
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0:17:32 – Fox Creative.
0:17:35 – This is advertiser content from Mint Mobile.
0:17:39 – Whenever I tell people I’m a free diver,
0:17:41 most of them think I’m nuts.
0:17:42 And that’s fair.
0:17:44 I mean, it’s not the sanest thing in the world
0:17:47 to see how long I can last at depth without oxygen.
0:17:50 And I do feel the pressure now and then, you know?
0:17:52 I mean, when you’re 40 feet underwater
0:17:55 feeling about 17 pounds per square inch,
0:17:57 it’s kind of unavoidable.
0:17:59 But you want to know about pressure?
0:18:01 Try being a parent.
0:18:03 Your kid’s screaming at you that he wants a quesadilla.
0:18:05 So you bring him one and he says,
0:18:07 “Not that kind!
0:18:10 “What other kind is there, Kevin?”
0:18:14 (sighs) The key is to stay cool.
0:18:16 Block out the noise.
0:18:18 Because much like parenting,
0:18:21 free diving is about living in the moment.
0:18:23 And it helps to keep it simple.
0:18:26 The same goes for your cell phone plan.
0:18:28 – Anyone can be an expert.
0:18:30 Even those you least expect.
0:18:32 – You don’t need a ton of equipment to dive.
0:18:35 And you don’t need all the new gadgets to parent.
0:18:37 And you definitely don’t need a confusing,
0:18:40 expensive contract to get premium wireless
0:18:42 at a price you feel good about.
0:18:43 – At Mint Mobile,
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0:19:08 Speed slower above 40 gigabytes on unlimited plan.
0:19:09 Taxes and fees extra.
0:19:11 Segment mobile for details.
0:19:15 – Welcome back.
0:19:17 Here’s our conversation with Dr. Sifali,
0:19:18 a New York Times bestselling author
0:19:22 of “The Conscious Parent and the Awakened Family.”
0:19:24 – Dr. Sifali, where does this podcast find you?
0:19:27 – Hi, well, in my home in New York.
0:19:29 That’s where I am right now.
0:19:30 – Great, well, welcome.
0:19:31 We appreciate your time.
0:19:32 So let’s best write into it.
0:19:36 How is parenting or our approach
0:19:39 or perception of parenting changed
0:19:41 over the last several decades?
0:19:42 – Oh, my goodness.
0:19:45 I think, I don’t know whether it’s changed so much
0:19:48 or just progressively deteriorated.
0:19:52 You know, I think from our original blueprint
0:19:57 of being raised in tribes within community
0:20:02 with a deep sense of interdependence to where we are now,
0:20:06 this has been the marked skewed deterioration
0:20:11 that I am concerned about because now we’ve become
0:20:14 progressively more and more isolated,
0:20:19 more and more nuclear and increasingly disconnected.
0:20:23 The advent of technology and this fast-paced world
0:20:25 we’re living in has really
0:20:31 detracted our ability to give our children
0:20:35 what they truly need psychologically and emotionally.
0:20:39 And what they truly need is parental presence
0:20:44 and parental well-being with parents more harried,
0:20:47 more distracted, more busy and stressed
0:20:51 and more disconnected because they’re on technology
0:20:53 more than in person.
0:20:54 Our children are being robbed
0:20:59 from the very emotional ingredients that they truly need.
0:21:04 And that is of deep concern and, you know, tragic,
0:21:07 it’s a tragic reality, but here’s where we are.
0:21:12 – So what I think is original or unique in your work
0:21:14 that I haven’t seen as much in other people’s work
0:21:17 is you emphasize on the well-being of the parents.
0:21:19 So start there.
0:21:22 If parents are working a lot,
0:21:25 trying to manage the expectations and capitalist reality
0:21:30 that you need to work a lot to provide a safe, secure household
0:21:33 where the kids have access to healthcare and education.
0:21:35 I mean, I’ve often heard the best thing you can do
0:21:37 for your kids as a husband is to make sure
0:21:39 that their mother feels loved, secure
0:21:42 and is in a place of security and comfort.
0:21:46 Tell us how parents, if you will reconcile that tension
0:21:48 in a capitalist society.
0:21:49 – Well, that’s it.
0:21:53 You in your question is the greatest predicament
0:21:58 because we’ve created such an extreme capitalism
0:22:04 and a desire for it that now we’re stuck in its spiral
0:22:06 and all of us are suffocating.
0:22:09 So part of what I teach, besides, you know,
0:22:12 what do you say to your child to get them to be motivated
0:22:15 or go to school or learn and educate themselves.
0:22:19 Besides those elemental ingredients of parenting,
0:22:24 what I really teach is how parents can begin to recognize
0:22:30 and reconcile this capitalist matrix that we’re within.
0:22:35 How do we live within it without being a slave to it?
0:22:40 How do we live here but really practice presence,
0:22:45 practice mindfulness, practice internal reflection
0:22:49 and slow the F down just because the entire world
0:22:53 is racing by you and the whole entire world
0:22:58 has created a mandate that you are what you do,
0:23:00 you don’t need to prescribe to that.
0:23:05 So my rallying walk-ride is for parents to wake up
0:23:10 to live differently, albeit in this world,
0:23:13 but to really regulate themselves
0:23:17 and understand that this extreme,
0:23:22 superior focus on capitalism is really a wounded,
0:23:26 dysfunctional, diseased, trauma response
0:23:29 from a dysfunctional disease childhood.
0:23:32 So here you are, now you have children,
0:23:35 don’t repeat the same pattern, do it differently.
0:23:38 Dare to do parenting differently.
0:23:41 And I talk about the traditional parenting paradigm
0:23:45 which has been in place since we all have been born
0:23:49 and way before, which is focused on capitalism,
0:23:53 focused on consumerism, focused on racing ahead,
0:23:56 separatism, comparison, competition
0:24:00 and extreme focus on these elements
0:24:02 will create dysfunctional children.
0:24:05 – So this resonates with me
0:24:07 and I wanna try and bring it down.
0:24:09 One, I always use the podcast as a chance
0:24:11 to talk about myself, which I enjoy.
0:24:15 And two, I also wanna try and make this actionable.
0:24:19 In 2000, it was nine or 10.
0:24:23 I had a startup, my partner, then wife,
0:24:25 was working at Goldman Sachs.
0:24:27 We had two babies at home.
0:24:30 She was waking up at 5.30, I was working around the clock.
0:24:33 And we both decided that this was just not the life
0:24:34 we wanted to lead.
0:24:38 At the same time, we recognized that to stay in New York,
0:24:39 we both had to be doing that.
0:24:41 And so we moved to Florida.
0:24:44 We dramatically cut our cost of living.
0:24:46 She left Goldman, continued to work
0:24:50 but had much more flexible, much more flexible life.
0:24:52 But what, so for us,
0:24:55 that recognition that you’re talking about that we’re not,
0:24:57 you know, what’s the point if we aren’t having a nice life
0:25:00 and at some point our kids are gonna sense this stress.
0:25:02 We dramatically cut our burn rate
0:25:05 and we decided that one person would be at home a lot
0:25:06 with the kids.
0:25:08 So those are two things.
0:25:10 One, I imagine you agree with those things,
0:25:14 but what else can parents do as an audit
0:25:18 that helps them create an actionable plan to foot
0:25:21 against your more conscious parenting?
0:25:24 – Well, every action really needs to come
0:25:25 from a deep intention.
0:25:27 So I can tell you the action,
0:25:28 but you know I’m all for the deeper intention.
0:25:33 But an actionable plan is stop racing to nowhere,
0:25:36 you know, clear out your schedule,
0:25:40 limit your children’s extracurricular structured activities
0:25:43 between the ages of one and 12.
0:25:47 Children are meant to play and explore
0:25:52 and be in this dreamlike state of creativity and inner quest.
0:25:57 Putting them in all these manic activities
0:26:01 robs them of their ability to explore their inner world.
0:26:05 And if you ask me what is the one disease of today,
0:26:09 it’s that our children do not know how to sit in stillness
0:26:14 in creativity and be bored and activate their inner resources
0:26:18 without governance from parental
0:26:20 and other supervisory figures
0:26:22 who constantly are telling them what to do,
0:26:23 how to do, when to do.
0:26:27 And then we wonder why our children by the age of 14
0:26:31 are listless and motivational lists on the couch.
0:26:33 Well, because we’ve robbed them of that initiative
0:26:37 and we’ve prescribed them into how to be
0:26:39 and no one wants to live according to a prescription.
0:26:41 Well, that’s what we’re doing to our children.
0:26:46 It’s as if there’s only one track to success and joy.
0:26:51 And that’s the mainstream consumeristic capitalistic track.
0:26:54 And it’s dangerous and our children
0:26:59 will become actually more antipathy than less
0:27:03 because we’re taking them into antipathy
0:27:05 instead of out of it.
0:27:07 – And so you write in your book
0:27:09 that we should move away from outcome goals
0:27:11 to process goals.
0:27:13 What did you mean by that?
0:27:17 – Well, our entire culture is based on linearity
0:27:20 and the future outcome
0:27:22 and how that looks to the outside world.
0:27:26 I mean, it’s just an externally driven world we live in.
0:27:30 And when we are tethered to external goals,
0:27:32 looking to the future, looking to tomorrow,
0:27:37 we get displaced from the most precious gift of life,
0:27:39 which is the present moment.
0:27:43 And we’re missing life waiting for tomorrow.
0:27:48 Childhood is in existence for one reason only
0:27:53 for the experience of childhood, not to raise an adult.
0:27:56 We somehow seem to think it’s in vogue
0:27:58 that we’re raising adults.
0:28:00 No, we’re not raising adults.
0:28:01 We’re raising children.
0:28:05 Children have a very unique developmental phase quality
0:28:10 and value that we are minimizing
0:28:13 because we have put stock in the future.
0:28:16 So similarly, in the present moment,
0:28:21 when we focus on how we are experiencing the present moment,
0:28:23 how we are entering the present moment,
0:28:27 this lived experience that you and I are having right now,
0:28:30 if we can awaken to it, alive into it,
0:28:33 for the listener right now in their car or on a walk,
0:28:37 if they can truly enter their body right here right now
0:28:39 and examine where they are,
0:28:43 now that is process-oriented living.
0:28:46 – Have you done any research or thinking around
0:28:51 if and what different types of approaches are needed
0:28:55 or modifications around parenting girls versus boys?
0:29:00 – I’ve done a lot of thinking and work around it.
0:29:02 With my own clients,
0:29:05 and I think we do need to recognize
0:29:09 that there is a difference biologically
0:29:14 between biological males and biological females.
0:29:15 I’m not talking about gender,
0:29:18 I’m just talking about just the biology,
0:29:21 and we need to attune to that.
0:29:24 Having said that, we also don’t need to get stuck in that,
0:29:27 right, there needs to be an attunement
0:29:30 to who the child is as they show up
0:29:32 based on what we see right in front of us.
0:29:35 So boy or girl, if they’re fidgeting in their chair
0:29:38 in fourth grade and they just can’t sit still,
0:29:40 well, we need to adapt to that.
0:29:43 I can predict more likely that the boy
0:29:46 with a higher testosterone and higher activity level
0:29:48 may need more activity,
0:29:51 but I don’t want to just stereotype it to that.
0:29:52 But I always want to be aware
0:29:55 that there is a biological difference
0:29:58 and it may not feel avant-garde to say that,
0:30:00 but for me, that’s a reality.
0:30:03 – The thing where you said there that resonated
0:30:05 was our need to sort of identify and label
0:30:10 in hopes that we can help shape the outcome
0:30:11 to a better place.
0:30:13 And I think that concern comes from a good place,
0:30:16 but what I see across households,
0:30:19 including ours, is this immediate need,
0:30:20 especially I think with boys,
0:30:23 although it might be as true with girls,
0:30:25 is to immediately label them as someone who either
0:30:27 is ADHD or not ADHD,
0:30:30 and then if someone who needs medicine
0:30:32 or doesn’t need medicine.
0:30:35 What are your thoughts on ADHD?
0:30:38 It’s the prevalence of the diagnosis
0:30:42 and your general views around prescription medication
0:30:43 for ADHD.
0:30:46 That’s the debate I see playing out
0:30:48 in almost every household I’m in contact with.
0:30:51 – Yeah, so there’s several layers to it.
0:30:54 So if you look at a lot of the research,
0:30:59 they will say that there is an inheritance in ADHD
0:31:02 and other spectrum disorders.
0:31:06 And I’m not a researcher, so I will just go with that.
0:31:11 However, I tend to ask what is the use of that research?
0:31:13 Like how am I going to use that research?
0:31:16 That’s more important to me than knowing
0:31:18 whether it’s inherited or not.
0:31:21 So the first thing that that research tells me
0:31:24 when I coach parents is that we are dealing
0:31:26 with a different kind of brain.
0:31:27 But guess what?
0:31:28 I say that for every damn child.
0:31:30 I say it for every human.
0:31:31 Guess what?
0:31:32 You have a different kind of brain.
0:31:35 So, okay, right there you can relax
0:31:37 because we all have a different kind of brain
0:31:38 and we need to adapt to that brain.
0:31:42 That brain though, the quote unquote ADHD brain,
0:31:44 seems to require certain things.
0:31:47 Which let me tell you, any parent will figure out
0:31:48 if you just observe your child.
0:31:50 So what are those things?
0:31:54 An ADHD kind of brain requires more space,
0:31:57 flexibility, creativity, and constant feedback.
0:32:01 Because their brain, and research has shown this,
0:32:05 has a more dopamine deficit,
0:32:10 they require more of that external feedback
0:32:13 to provide that quote unquote dopamine hit.
0:32:16 So schedules that are more bite-sized,
0:32:19 projects that are broken down into chunks,
0:32:22 constant feedback to those kinds of children.
0:32:27 And room and flexibility to move, to create, to play,
0:32:30 to not follow such a tight schedule.
0:32:32 Now, that’s just on the brain level.
0:32:37 Culturally and societally, we have created a cage,
0:32:44 cage for children, ADHD brain or non-ADHD brain.
0:32:47 I remember, and even though I’m quote unquote a girl,
0:32:50 and I was more socialized to be compliant,
0:32:55 I felt stifled in a classroom growing up in India.
0:32:57 So fast forward now,
0:33:00 where we become even more regimented,
0:33:02 more achievement oriented,
0:33:06 children are being stifled in these little cages
0:33:08 that is so detrimental to them.
0:33:13 And I think it causes ADHD on its own as well.
0:33:16 Besides it being an inherited or inherent feature
0:33:19 of one’s personality and brain function,
0:33:24 I think we also accentuate it and we actually cause it too.
0:33:27 And the third issue is parental stress.
0:33:30 And I don’t want parents to feel like they are to blame,
0:33:33 but we have to look at our co-creation.
0:33:37 I think I, in my own life, as mindful as I like to be,
0:33:41 I can act completely scattered, distracted, stressed out,
0:33:45 which then my daughter absorbs and she immediately feels it.
0:33:47 Now she’s stressed out,
0:33:49 which causes her to not engage in a presence
0:33:51 filled away in her life.
0:33:55 So look how many things there are to create this ADHD.
0:33:57 Now you asked about medication.
0:34:00 My blanket knee jerk reaction
0:34:04 is to be skeptical of medication for young children,
0:34:08 but I’m also open to each case, right?
0:34:12 Sometimes I’ve had to refer my eight-year-old client
0:34:16 to a psychiatrist to just get checked out,
0:34:19 but I’ve loathed it
0:34:23 because I know that we can adapt the environment
0:34:25 to create a better environment for our children
0:34:28 before infusing them with drugs.
0:34:32 And many families with ADHD children
0:34:38 will have the preponderance of ADHD somewhere in the family.
0:34:41 Genetic or situational, it’s there.
0:34:45 So I help parents clear up their schedules,
0:34:49 clean up their environments, calm the hell down,
0:34:50 and engage with their children.
0:34:52 And that helps tremendously.
0:34:54 So I will explore all those things
0:34:58 before I recommend medicine.
0:35:00 – What are your views on a parent’s role
0:35:03 with respect to the intersection between technology,
0:35:05 specifically the phone and kids?
0:35:07 Do you have any best practices?
0:35:09 – Yes.
0:35:14 Given that we’ve now seen how addictive these screens are,
0:35:17 my daughter’s 21, so I’ve already messed it up.
0:35:22 But I tell young parents, no screen still teens
0:35:26 as much as possible because it’s, to me,
0:35:29 giving crack cocaine to your young children
0:35:30 and to these young brains.
0:35:34 And they are not developmentally ready to handle
0:35:37 the influx of all the stimulation that is really
0:35:38 designed to rob them of presence,
0:35:42 which is the main thing children need to thrive.
0:35:44 And children need connected parents.
0:35:48 So the more parents are on their screens,
0:35:50 the more children are not getting what they need
0:35:52 in terms of emotional food.
0:35:56 So it’s just an all-out disaster.
0:36:00 I think technology to young children is a disaster.
0:36:03 But what does a parent need to do?
0:36:06 The parent needs to fight the matrix as much as possible,
0:36:10 not given, and really try to be as present as they can,
0:36:14 which is a big, high, tall order for parents today.
0:36:16 Because now we are all addicted.
0:36:18 So what do we do?
0:36:21 Our emails are constantly buzzing on the phone
0:36:23 and we’re called to work now 24/7.
0:36:26 Now it’s virtuous to work on the go.
0:36:30 Before, we couldn’t check our email if we were on vacation.
0:36:32 Now we can check our email all the time.
0:36:36 So are children are getting exponentially less attention
0:36:39 and connection from a present grounded,
0:36:42 undistracted parent than ever before?
0:36:44 I mean, so much of this resonates.
0:36:47 I struggle with one thing.
0:36:50 My parents were worried I was going to get into too much trouble.
0:36:54 I’m actually worried that my kids won’t get into enough trouble.
0:36:57 The absence of free play, supervision everywhere.
0:37:00 I used to leave my mom’s house.
0:37:03 It’s 9 a.m. on a Saturday morning with a Schwinn bike
0:37:06 and Abba Zaba bar and 35 cents.
0:37:07 And I’m not exaggerating.
0:37:09 I would come home 13 hours later.
0:37:12 And she had no idea where I was, none.
0:37:14 And if I wasn’t home by 10 or 11 p.m.,
0:37:18 she’d start calling around, but for 13 hours,
0:37:22 if my son is 20 minutes late from school,
0:37:24 we call him my six.
0:37:27 I mean, it’s just nuts.
0:37:30 I mean, how much of this is that the parents need to
0:37:33 try and quell their own anxiety?
0:37:35 I’m sure you’re hearing the terms Jonathan Hyde,
0:37:36 every other word right now.
0:37:38 But one of the things that Jonathan said
0:37:42 that really resonated with me is we overparent,
0:37:45 offline and underparent online.
0:37:49 How do we learn to stop the overparenting offline?
0:37:55 Yeah, it is 100% our parental anxiety.
0:37:59 You know, these apps that way you can track your kid 24/7.
0:38:01 And you know, I refused.
0:38:04 I only just recently put it on my phone
0:38:07 because my daughter wanted to track me.
0:38:08 I was like, what the hell?
0:38:10 Why do you want to track me?
0:38:11 She’s like, I need to know where you are.
0:38:15 I said, see, you’re falling into your current generation’s
0:38:18 bullshit, sorry, to track people.
0:38:20 And I never tracked her.
0:38:23 She’s 21 and only because she’s tracking me now,
0:38:25 I apparently have to do it mutually.
0:38:27 And I told her, I don’t want to track you,
0:38:28 not because I don’t love you,
0:38:31 but I don’t want to fall into this plague
0:38:34 of constant anxiety around where you are.
0:38:37 It is overparenting offline
0:38:42 because it gives us this illusory sense of control,
0:38:46 which is our greatest desire has always been our longing
0:38:49 to control the hell out of other people
0:38:51 and especially our children.
0:38:53 And our technology has given it to us,
0:38:54 but it’s an illusion.
0:38:56 It’s the illusion of control.
0:39:00 And it’s given us tools to micromanage our children,
0:39:02 to overproduce them.
0:39:07 And of course, our children are now not rooting
0:39:10 for themselves, not flying the roost
0:39:12 and just breaking free from us
0:39:14 because our tethers are too deep in them.
0:39:18 And now we’ve trained them to constantly look to us,
0:39:20 rely on us, call us.
0:39:22 The moment there’s a catastrophe in their life,
0:39:25 they’re like, mom, dad, right away on text.
0:39:26 We didn’t have that.
0:39:28 We didn’t have the tether.
0:39:30 Once you left the house, you left the house.
0:39:32 I left at 21 to America without a phone,
0:39:34 without, we used to write letters home
0:39:37 and it took three weeks for news to reach home
0:39:40 and a lot of money to call long distance.
0:39:42 We’ve removed that, you see,
0:39:45 but what we’ve removed is not just inconvenience.
0:39:49 We’ve removed the capacity for resilience
0:39:52 for our children to sit in the mess of their life,
0:39:56 to be bored, to sit in the anxiety of waiting for a bus,
0:39:58 to wait for their meal,
0:40:01 to walk to the Encyclopedia Britannica
0:40:02 and find it on the shelf
0:40:04 and then wait for it to come back
0:40:06 because it’s been checked out.
0:40:10 All that waiting, albeit terribly inconvenient,
0:40:11 now has been bypassed.
0:40:16 And when you bypass waiting and delaying gratification,
0:40:19 you take out life skills,
0:40:24 which the main life skill is coping with your discomfort.
0:40:26 Why do you think children are more anxious
0:40:27 ever today than ever before
0:40:30 because we have removed discomfort from their life
0:40:33 and they don’t know how to deal with discomfort.
0:40:36 They expect things at their fingertips
0:40:40 because we’ve trained them, our generation did this to them.
0:40:41 Don’t be blaming children,
0:40:44 I always tell our generation of parents,
0:40:45 we gave them all this technology
0:40:47 because we were tired of walking to school,
0:40:49 we were tired of cooking
0:40:54 and now we’ve raised children who are highly indulged
0:40:57 and incapable of sitting with messy feelings.
0:40:59 – So as we wrap up here,
0:41:02 we’ve talked a bit about parenting,
0:41:05 but if there’s a lot of macroeconomic factors at play,
0:41:07 the child poverty is up.
0:41:09 I believe there’s a lot of economic policies
0:41:11 that make it harder for young parents
0:41:12 to be economically secure.
0:41:15 If the White House called you and said,
0:41:18 “Dr. Safali, what are two or three programs
0:41:22 “or policy changes you would like to see us implement
0:41:25 “that would make it easier for parents
0:41:27 “to be more conscious parents?”
0:41:29 What would those two or three ideas be?
0:41:33 – I would say no child should have a screen,
0:41:37 a portable screen till the age of 16.
0:41:39 Take it away, it’s banned.
0:41:41 I would take out the screen from the school.
0:41:43 Yeah, and then people will be like,
0:41:44 “Well, what about technology?”
0:41:48 Well, I would limit it to like an hour a day.
0:41:51 I wouldn’t make it the way of life.
0:41:53 I know parents of today’s generation,
0:41:56 if there was a rule in place that screens were banned
0:41:59 from the home till the child was 16 or 17,
0:42:03 all of us would heave,
0:42:06 breathe the biggest sigh of relief
0:42:10 because we’ve seen it contaminating our lives at home.
0:42:13 We’ve seen our children getting high on the drug
0:42:16 of the screen dopamine and unable to get off
0:42:18 and monsters when they get off.
0:42:19 So that’s the first thing I would do.
0:42:23 The second thing I would do is I would make mindfulness
0:42:25 and a meditation practice,
0:42:29 completely non-religious secular meditation practice.
0:42:33 It must in every school, it must in every corporation,
0:42:35 it must for every parent.
0:42:38 And the third thing I would do is I would send all parents
0:42:39 to my conscious parenting classes.
0:42:42 So they learn to heal their baggage
0:42:44 and learn how to be a conscious parent.
0:42:48 I think that would be the saving of the planet.
0:42:50 – Dr. Shifali is a New York Times bestselling author
0:42:54 of “The Conscious Parent and the Awakened Family.”
0:42:57 She’s also a clinical psychologist, parenting expert
0:42:59 and international speaker and a wisdom teacher
0:43:03 who integrates Eastern philosophy with Western psychology.
0:43:05 She joins us from her home in New York.
0:43:07 Dr. Shifali, we appreciate your time.
0:43:10 – I have one more thing that I’m also now off.
0:43:15 Yes, I am now the host of my own parenting podcast
0:43:17 called “Parenting and You,”
0:43:19 which is not your typical parenting podcast
0:43:24 because I help the parent in this podcast raise themselves.
0:43:29 And I only do live interventions with parents in real time.
0:43:31 – Parenting and you, great.
0:43:33 Thank you, Dr. Shifali.
0:43:34 – Thank you, thank you for having me.
0:43:37 – That’s all for this episode.
0:43:39 If you’d like to submit a question,
0:43:40 please email a voice recording
0:43:42 to officehours@proptimedia.com.
0:43:45 Again, that’s officehours@proptimedia.com.
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0:00:39 Hey, this is Scott Galloway, host of the PropG Podcast.
0:00:43 One of my favorite things I get to do on this show is hear from our listeners and answer
0:00:48 their burning questions about all sorts of things, including work, life, school.
0:00:49 You name it.
0:00:52 And this summer, we’re bringing back the hits and covering some of our favorite questions
0:00:53 and takes.
0:00:57 We’re talking business, career advice, and even hearing a brand new, never been aired
0:00:58 interview about parenthood.
0:01:03 So tune in to the best of office hours, the special series from the PropG Podcast sponsored
0:01:05 by Mint Mobile.
0:01:10 You can find it on the PropG feed wherever you get your podcasts.
0:01:12 This week’s number, 400.
0:01:17 That’s how many people applied to adopt Pepper, a foul mouth parrot from Anaya Rafal’s Animal
0:01:18 Shelter.
0:01:22 True story, the Pope has said that pets should not replace children.
0:01:25 I guess he doesn’t want priest practicing bestiality.
0:01:40 Welcome to PropG markets at what’s going, is that too much, Ed?
0:01:41 Is that too much?
0:01:42 On point, as always.
0:01:43 There you go.
0:01:44 There you go.
0:01:45 What was my other pet joke?
0:01:49 Oh, supposedly one-third of people let their pets sleep in their bed with them.
0:01:53 So I gave it a try and the goldfish died.
0:01:55 That’s a good two, right?
0:01:56 That’s good.
0:02:00 If I could just weave in goldfish and pedophilia, I could have it all.
0:02:01 I could have it all.
0:02:04 Welcome to PropG markets, Ed.
0:02:05 What is going on today?
0:02:08 We’re going to talk about money, as always Scott, but this time we’re going to focus
0:02:13 on a specific topic that we get a lot of questions about, and that is how to deal with
0:02:16 money when it comes to family.
0:02:19 So I’m going to run through a series of questions about how you think about money when it comes
0:02:23 to your own family, and hopefully we’ll get some advice for our listeners.
0:02:24 That sound good?
0:02:25 Sounds good.
0:02:29 So you have a famous piece of advice, which is that the most important financial decision
0:02:32 that you’ll make is who you partner with.
0:02:37 So I just want to focus on partners for the beginning of this.
0:02:41 How did you know that you and your partner were aligned financially?
0:02:44 Well, it’s not easy to sort of have that conversation with your young, because you’re
0:02:48 not entirely sure you understand each of your approach to spending.
0:02:49 You get a sense for it.
0:02:52 A lot of it just comes down to what sort of turns you on.
0:02:57 I’ve always been very attracted to women who were exceptionally competent.
0:03:02 My current partner worked at Goldman Sachs, has an MBA, has always made a lot of money,
0:03:04 and I just find that sexy.
0:03:08 Not so much that they make money, which is obviously very helpful.
0:03:12 Two incomes are just so powerful relative to one.
0:03:14 But I’ve always just been drawn to people who are really competent.
0:03:19 My girlfriend before her was a surgeon.
0:03:24 And my first wife also had an MBA and was the COO of a retailer.
0:03:27 So that shit just works for me.
0:03:29 And I think it’s an individual thing.
0:03:31 I got very lucky that way.
0:03:35 And that is I chose partners who were really financially viable, not because I was thinking
0:03:39 about money, but because I just personally find that very attractive.
0:03:44 And do you have conversations with your — have you always had conversations with your partners
0:03:46 about money and about your financial goals?
0:03:49 Yeah, although in the beginning, we didn’t really have a lot of conversations.
0:03:53 It was just — with my first wife, it was just like, we’re both working so hard.
0:03:56 And she had sort of these Midwestern values.
0:03:57 I’ve always spent more than my partners.
0:04:01 I’ve always — I don’t know if it was purposeful, but I’ve always found partners that are fairly
0:04:03 — not frugal, but really responsible with money.
0:04:06 And I’m always on the one like, “No, let’s buy the Range Rover.
0:04:08 You only live once.”
0:04:11 And I’ve never gone into debt, but I’ve always been a spender.
0:04:17 And usually my partner’s sort of a more of a saver, or not even a saver, but less of
0:04:18 a risk-taker.
0:04:22 If we were up to my partner, we would have Krugerans buried in the backyard.
0:04:28 And maybe buying — like risk for her is buying Deutsche Bonds that yield one and a half percent.
0:04:33 And I’m like, “No, it’s this great new technology that sends, you know, that sends pets into
0:04:34 space.
0:04:37 It’s a no-brainer.”
0:04:40 What I will say is — and I think this is really important, the approach I have tried
0:04:41 to take.
0:04:48 And this is a story of privilege, because I’ve always had more money, or almost always
0:04:51 made more money than I was spending.
0:04:57 One of the really wonderful things I really value about my relationship is that I encourage
0:04:59 my wife to spend money.
0:05:01 I want her to enjoy the money.
0:05:05 I want her to live life.
0:05:07 And I’m the one — she’ll call me and say, “Hey, I’m looking at this.”
0:05:12 And she calls me because she doesn’t like to buy expensive things for herself.
0:05:14 And she knows I’m going to say, “Yes, go for it.”
0:05:19 I’m a conduit for happiness, and that is I’m never that happy myself.
0:05:23 But the way I register joy is when other people are happy.
0:05:29 So I’ve always really enjoyed, if money can buy people happiness in my family, I want them
0:05:32 to indulge and engage in that.
0:05:38 But that is one part of my life that has always been really positive.
0:05:43 What’s your approach to sharing with your partner, like sharing assets?
0:05:49 To what extent is it two financial lives versus one merged together for you?
0:05:50 Well, I think it’s individual.
0:05:54 I think some people, especially later in life, who come to the table with preexisting assets
0:05:58 when I keep their assets sequestered from each other, I get that.
0:06:04 But in all of my relationships, including this one, I’ve been in this current relationship
0:06:05 for over 20 years.
0:06:08 I didn’t really have any money when I met my current partner.
0:06:13 I mean, it’s really rewarding to build economic security is rewarding, but what’s incredibly
0:06:16 rewarding is to build it with someone else.
0:06:17 It’s just fun.
0:06:20 You just feel like you’re building something, and if you buy your house together and you
0:06:25 make money and you can build a nice life together that includes economic security, it’s just
0:06:27 so much rewarding than building it on your own.
0:06:29 It’s almost like it doesn’t really happen.
0:06:31 I love investing with other people.
0:06:36 That way if the investment goes well, you both celebrate it, and it’s just so much more fun.
0:06:38 I’ve never had separate accounts.
0:06:43 Even when I wasn’t married to my ex-wife when we were just living together, I’m like, “What’s
0:06:44 mine is yours?”
0:06:47 We had one checking account.
0:06:49 We didn’t track who was spending what.
0:06:51 We both had similar approaches to money.
0:06:52 We were both responsible.
0:06:54 We were both making money.
0:06:56 I have never checked my partner’s credit card bills.
0:06:58 I’ve never done any of that.
0:07:05 Again, a lot of that is because we had the luxury of having a decent amount of money.
0:07:08 This stuff is so important because they say the majority of divorces are a function of
0:07:10 economic stress.
0:07:11 That is just one stress.
0:07:18 I’ve had stress economically, but it has never been injected into my relationships.
0:07:23 What kinds of economic decisions do you think should be made together?
0:07:29 It sounds like when your wife calls you and she wants to buy something expensive, she’s
0:07:35 kind of asking for permission to make the economic decision together in a way.
0:07:38 Where’s your line on when you got to call the partner?
0:07:41 The dynamic is a little unusual there because here’s the thing.
0:07:42 She doesn’t need to call me.
0:07:43 She doesn’t need my permission.
0:07:49 What she is doing is she wants me to validate it because she has trouble spending that kind
0:07:50 of money on herself.
0:07:55 She knows what I’m going to say, which is the following.
0:07:57 You should absolutely buy it.
0:08:01 Oh my God, $38,000 for a pair of antique earrings.
0:08:02 That is such a great value.
0:08:07 It would be economically irresponsible of you not to buy it.
0:08:11 For the well-being of our family, I need you to buy those earrings.
0:08:15 She knows I’m going to say something similar to that and it makes her feel better about
0:08:16 buying it.
0:08:19 I see above, very privileged.
0:08:22 Let’s throw out a hypothetical for you then.
0:08:27 You want to buy a car, not a crazy sports car, but a car.
0:08:28 Is that a shared decision?
0:08:29 No.
0:08:33 If it’s something over a few hundred dollars, we’re renovating a house and she’ll talk to
0:08:37 me about decisions and what it’s going to cost.
0:08:42 We share a discussion and it’s not permission, but it’s joint decision making to try and
0:08:46 make sure wisdom of crowds around spending big ticket purchases, buying a house or renovating
0:08:47 a house or big purchases.
0:08:50 We talk about that stuff.
0:08:55 I make big investment decisions that are multi-million dollar decisions without her permission.
0:09:01 What we do on money though is because I manage the investments is that on a regular basis,
0:09:05 I tell her where we are and that is I’ll sit down with her probably every three or probably
0:09:07 every six months and I’ll say, “This is how much money we have.”
0:09:12 I have, I don’t know, 25 investments and I’ll say, “This is how they’re all doing.”
0:09:14 I try to give it to her very sober and very straight.
0:09:19 Last week, I think I told you two weeks ago, I had an investment, a $5 million investment
0:09:20 go to zero.
0:09:23 The next day I just said, “Oh, FYI, do you remember that health care text message in
0:09:24 company?”
0:09:25 I’m like, “It went to zero.”
0:09:27 Immediately, she said, “That’s it.
0:09:33 No more sex for you for the rest of the year, Mr. fucking idiot ruining our economic security.”
0:09:42 I think what strains relationships is obviously economics but I think what ruins them is surprises.
0:09:48 I always want my partner to know where we are economically and I’m good at money.
0:09:52 She outsources that part of our life to me and pretty much she does almost everything
0:09:58 else but around investments and maintaining top-line wealth and wealth decisions.
0:10:02 I make those decisions but on the big ones, I check in with her.
0:10:06 This is what I’m thinking, this is what we’re investing in and I just want her to know what’s
0:10:07 going on.
0:10:09 I don’t want her to ever feel surprised.
0:10:13 I don’t want her to feel like she’s reading the market so up 30% but our wealth got cut
0:10:15 because of our investments are down.
0:10:19 I never want her to be surprised so I tell her exactly how it is and I always, I would
0:10:25 say, have a little bit of a … I kind of give it to her a little bit worse than what
0:10:30 it is but I’m very quick to tell her about the losses and not as quick to tell her about
0:10:31 the wins.
0:10:35 I honestly do but the key is, you never want your partner to be a surprise about this.
0:10:37 I mean, losing money is bad.
0:10:38 What’s worse is surprises.
0:10:44 Yeah, it sounds like you don’t have much stress around the economics in your relationship.
0:10:46 One, because you have the money.
0:10:50 I think that’s an important point but two, it sounds like there’s just generally a high
0:10:55 level of trust so you don’t have to be tracking stuff because you just trust that the other
0:10:58 person is going to make the right decision.
0:10:59 Would you say that’s sort of the key?
0:11:05 I just think you need to be cognizant of what your partner, potential partner’s approach
0:11:11 to money is, if and what will their contribution be on both sides.
0:11:15 What economic weight class do you expect to be in?
0:11:19 Who’s responsible for maintaining that economic weight class and what is your approach, each
0:11:20 of your approach to spending?
0:11:27 Just some very basic general questions ask yourself and each other and also have an honest
0:11:28 talk about, “All right.
0:11:29 We live in Chicago.
0:11:31 This is probably what it’s going to cost to live.
0:11:33 This is how much money I’m going to make.
0:11:34 How much money do you think you’re going to make?
0:11:37 Are you planning to make money?”
0:11:42 Because you just need to get some sort of alignment and then I think where you need
0:11:50 real alignment with your partner, a very open conversation is when things go awry.
0:11:55 When you have economics to ask, maybe it’s a healthcare cost or one of your parents gets
0:11:59 sick and you have to come up with money when he gets laid off, whatever it might be, but
0:12:04 you end up with economic hardship, then you need to really be transparent and sit down
0:12:10 and get alignment and have some difficult conversations around what’s required to rebuild
0:12:11 as a team.
0:12:21 We’ll be right back.
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0:14:28 Easier said, done.
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0:15:29 We’re back with ProfG Markets.
0:15:31 Let’s talk about parents.
0:15:35 Do you think people should feel a responsibility to provide for their parents once they start
0:15:36 making money?
0:15:37 I don’t know if they should.
0:15:39 I know I always did.
0:15:42 My dad had such an unhealthy relationship.
0:15:46 My dad loves me more than my sister because I make more money than her.
0:15:50 My dad has such a fucked-up relationship with money.
0:15:55 He grew up in Scotland during the Depression in an era where if you didn’t have money,
0:16:01 you could literally starve, and he just has such an unhealthy relationship to money.
0:16:06 It was always a constant source of stress for him, his approach to it.
0:16:07 It scarred me.
0:16:11 If I can’t pay for everyone when I go out, I won’t go out.
0:16:15 When I was younger, if I couldn’t pay for everybody, not that I was expected to, but
0:16:20 my dad was so cheap that I went the other way.
0:16:24 I just wouldn’t go out unless I felt like I could pay for everybody.
0:16:29 Anyways, that’s a different talk show, but I take care of my dad financially now.
0:16:30 It cost me a shit ton of money.
0:16:36 I spend about, I think about $250,000 or $300,000 post-tax taking care of my father, having
0:16:41 him in a home, having a full-time health aide, helped out my mom, but I was in a position
0:16:43 to, and it felt really nice.
0:16:47 It felt really good to be able to do that.
0:16:53 What I would say is that, hopefully you have siblings, hopefully your parents are economically
0:17:00 responsible and saved enough money, but yeah, I think the definition of family is you take
0:17:07 an emotionally and financially invested, you’re invested in their success and their
0:17:08 well-being.
0:17:15 So, ideally, you and your siblings get together and figure out a way that your parents are
0:17:16 comfortable.
0:17:21 What’s been really wonderful in terms of, for example, with my father’s, there’s different
0:17:22 ways to contribute.
0:17:28 My father’s kind of needed a lot of care or financial care over the last 10 years.
0:17:31 He’s gotten older and divorced for his fourth time.
0:17:37 I have the money to do it, but my sister handles all of the logistics and hiring and firing
0:17:44 of the nurses and negotiating with the facility he’s at, and to be honest, my part’s the
0:17:45 easy part.
0:17:49 I pay for it all because I make more money than my sister, but I see that as the easy
0:17:50 part.
0:17:53 She has to get on the phone with these folks and figure out if they’re going to have a
0:17:56 full-time nurse, what the hours are.
0:17:57 It’s been a great partnership.
0:18:03 I’m really grateful that me and my sister are really aligned around this, but yeah,
0:18:07 every family’s different, but if you’re in a position to help your parents, why wouldn’t
0:18:08 it?
0:18:09 It feels good.
0:18:10 It feels right.
0:18:11 It feels natural.
0:18:12 Do you take care of your sister financially?
0:18:13 No, I don’t take care of her.
0:18:16 Her and her husband are really successful professionally.
0:18:21 What I do is just because it’s fun is occasionally I help out with things like the kids’ school
0:18:24 or something like that, more just because it makes me feel good, but they don’t really
0:18:25 need it.
0:18:31 It’s something I really enjoy and I want a really nice relationship with my niece and
0:18:32 nephew.
0:18:36 I just love the idea of them finding out at some point that I helped out with their school.
0:18:41 I do it just as a means of hoping that it’ll strengthen my relationship with them when
0:18:42 they’re adults.
0:18:47 Do you think people should kind of factor that in when it comes to economic planning?
0:18:54 I mean, you talked about planning with your partner, how much do we intend to make?
0:18:55 What are our goals?
0:18:59 Do you think people should be thinking, and this is how much I want to be providing for
0:19:00 my family?
0:19:04 Is this how much I want to have stowed away to take care of my parents when they’re old,
0:19:05 et cetera?
0:19:09 I think that because at the end of the day, your ability to do that is going to be based
0:19:10 on how much money you have.
0:19:16 I think you should just be focused on what we talk about, the algebra of wealth, finding
0:19:19 something you’re good at, doubling down on it, becoming great at it, which will give you
0:19:23 economic currency in the marketplace, trying to spend less than you make, invest that money,
0:19:27 develop an army of capital you can deploy, recognize time is going to go faster than
0:19:32 you think, and then diversify such that you’re in a position to be generous with your family
0:19:35 and extended family.
0:19:38 You need to affix your own oxygen mass first, and when you’re young, your parents probably
0:19:41 aren’t sick and don’t need help, you don’t have kids to take care of, that’s the time
0:19:48 to develop that savings muscle and that professional currency, and put yourself on a path to financial
0:19:49 security.
0:19:50 Let me flip the question back to you, Ed.
0:19:55 You have parents, you’re making good money, but you’re not wealthy.
0:19:58 What’s your approach and your thinking around helping out your parents and your approach
0:20:00 to saving for that?
0:20:01 Is that something you’re actively thinking about?
0:20:08 Both of my parents are fine, so I’m not worried about them from that aspect, but I think the
0:20:13 thing that you mentioned with your sister, the fact that your sister is doing, yeah,
0:20:17 the hard work, getting on the phone, figuring out where they should be staying, how to take
0:20:23 care of them, those are things that I have been thinking about progressively a little
0:20:24 bit more.
0:20:29 I mean, my grandad is very sick at the moment, I’m about to go visit him this weekend, and
0:20:35 I’ve been seeing this play out in real time of just the responsibility of everyone.
0:20:39 It suddenly kicks in at that point when you suddenly realize that life is fine, and everyone
0:20:46 suddenly gets their act together and starts thinking, okay, how do I pay it back?
0:20:51 I guess I just asked the economic planning question because I’m only just now thinking
0:20:52 of that.
0:20:58 I’m only now seeing it because I see death around the corner, and now I’m thinking, oh,
0:20:59 did I get my act together right now?
0:21:01 I’m not necessarily sure how I can.
0:21:03 When you see your act together, what do you mean?
0:21:08 Do I need to be planning such that I can provide for my parents?
0:21:15 Do I need to be making sure that I’m taking care of them too, which, you know, my parents
0:21:17 have always taken care of me.
0:21:23 So I guess there’s a moment where you start thinking that the script should be flipped.
0:21:27 It feels like for you, when your mom got really sick, that was that moment.
0:21:29 Yeah, and it happened at about exactly your age.
0:21:34 My mom first got diagnosed with cancer when I was exactly your age.
0:21:38 It was a real wake-up call for me because we had economic stress, and I couldn’t take
0:21:42 care of her, and she ended up with shitty healthcare, and it was just, like, usually
0:21:45 emasculating and frustrating and humiliating, quite frankly.
0:21:48 I was in graduate school, and I think I’ve told this story.
0:21:53 She got discharged from the hospital early, having gone through batteries of chemo and
0:21:57 a mastectomy, and she was at home and called me, and I had to rush home, and it was just
0:22:02 such an ugly scene that I walked into, and I started calling around to get a nurse, and
0:22:07 nurses were $35 an hour, and we didn’t have that money, and I just know what to do.
0:22:10 But you’re thinking about it exactly the right way.
0:22:14 You’re thinking, “Ade, you’re just thinking about it, but the way you address that is
0:22:16 that you’re smart, and you’re doing all the right things.
0:22:17 You’re working hard.
0:22:19 I get the sense you’re saving.
0:22:22 You’re trying to invest.
0:22:25 Most people don’t invest at your age, and you’re working hard and trying to establish
0:22:26 professional relevance.”
0:22:32 So, that, quite frankly, with your parents, money kind of solves not all problems, but
0:22:33 most of them.
0:22:37 If you haven’t have money, as long as you have siblings, you have siblings, right?
0:22:38 You have two sisters.
0:22:41 Between the three of you, especially if you have a good relationship with them, and they’re
0:22:46 like-minded and generous around, and feel obligated to pitch in and help with your parents, one
0:22:51 of you might be wealthier than the other two, and be able to help more with money.
0:22:55 One might have a better relationship and be able to spend more time with your parents,
0:22:59 because they just get along with them better or have more time, and one might hopefully
0:23:05 have their shit together logistically, and be able to kind of handle and negotiate stuff.
0:23:09 There’s the money part, but the thing that’s, I think, been rougher than my sister’s had
0:23:14 to deal with is there’s just so many decisions to be made every day, and not only that, sometimes
0:23:17 your parents aren’t cooperating, right?
0:23:21 They don’t want to leave their house and move into an assisted living facility.
0:23:26 My dad starts leaving the facility and taking walks, and no one knows where he is, and I
0:23:31 have to call him and try and get through to him and tell him he’s not allowed to leave
0:23:39 the facility, and meanwhile, he thinks I’m his brother, not his son.
0:23:44 This stuff gets complicated fast, but I literally don’t know what people do that don’t have
0:23:46 a lot of money.
0:23:49 I am spending so much money on my dad right now, and it’s not a lot of money for me, but
0:23:50 it’s real money.
0:23:52 I don’t know what people do that aren’t wealthy.
0:23:53 Or alone.
0:23:58 That’s been my big observation watching my granddad is, “Oh my God, if this guy didn’t
0:24:02 have family, because that’s all you got at the end, it’s not going to be your friends,
0:24:03 it’s going to be your family.”
0:24:08 If he didn’t have family, if he didn’t have children and grandchildren around, it would
0:24:10 be miserable.
0:24:16 I had what I thought was one of the most stark, depressing moments, you know, when my mom
0:24:20 got sick, I was 26, so my life up into that point had mostly, you know, I’d just gotten,
0:24:24 I’ve been in college grad school, so it’s mostly UCLA games, fraternity parties, smoking
0:24:28 too much pot, watching Planet of the Apes over and over, and then all of a sudden my
0:24:31 mom got sick and everything just shook out real.
0:24:35 And I remember my mom had to go into this healthcare facility.
0:24:40 She was too sick to be at home without care, but she wasn’t sick enough to be in the hospital,
0:24:45 and she was with Kaiser, and Kaiser is basically very cost-conscious, so like, you don’t want
0:24:48 her in the hospital, it’s too expensive to keep her in the hospital.
0:24:52 So she went to, I don’t even know what they call it like, this facility.
0:24:56 And it was literally the place where people who have no money and no one who loves them
0:24:57 go.
0:25:01 And I remember walking into her room, and she was in this room with two cots, and there
0:25:07 were these bad springs that squeaked when she sat up and down, and they had these old
0:25:16 Moscow-like arms, metal arms with a TV, and the woman next to her had the TV turned up
0:25:21 so loud because she couldn’t hear it, and she had the arm extended such that this bad,
0:25:26 old ’70s TV, black and white, was literally in front of her face, and she just kept hitting
0:25:30 it, and the whole place stank of urine.
0:25:34 And there were a bunch of people, old people who looked like they were on death’s doorstep,
0:25:39 just sitting asleep, semi-conscious in their wheelchairs in the hallway.
0:25:43 But I remember walking in there and thinking, this is where people in America end up that
0:25:47 don’t have any money and don’t have anyone that loves them, that is still alive.
0:25:54 And it was such like a stark reminder that in America, one, you want to have money, and
0:25:59 two, you really want to invest in relationships such that someone is there to look out for
0:26:00 you.
0:26:02 Do you end up broken alone in America?
0:26:04 God, it’s fucking ugly.
0:26:07 100%.
0:26:17 On that note, ah, there we go, there we go, who’s buying Supreme, and are they overpaying?
0:26:28 Oh my God, broken alone, on today’s, on today’s ROFG markets, what’s it like to be broke with
0:26:29 no one who loves you?
0:26:30 Here’s a message from Betahelp.
0:26:32 Yeah, there you go.
0:26:33 Jesus Christ.
0:26:50 I’m going to leave for a mattress ad right off to this.
0:26:52 Fox Creative.
0:26:55 This is Advertiser content from Zell.
0:27:00 The recruiter said all I needed to do was send $500 to cover mandatory safety training
0:27:03 and the job was mine.
0:27:07 In a world where financial crimes are more and more sophisticated, there’s a team that’s
0:27:08 got your back.
0:27:09 Yee-haw!
0:27:14 Come in, Safe Squad, we got a 10-3.
0:27:17 Copy that dispatch, we’re on it.
0:27:22 Hop in, Skip, we got a phony recruiter.
0:27:24 Safe Squad.
0:27:26 The crime drama everyone is talking about.
0:27:31 I know it’s only my first day, but that sounds like a pretty cut-and-dry job scam.
0:27:33 Strap in, rookie.
0:27:37 These days criminals can even make it look like it’s your bank calm, but that’s where
0:27:38 we come in.
0:27:39 My what?
0:27:41 It’s my savings account.
0:27:42 Compromised.
0:27:43 Uh-huh.
0:27:44 Uh-huh.
0:27:45 No, I won’t hold.
0:27:46 Uh-huh.
0:27:47 Uh-huh.
0:27:50 No, I didn’t authorize a $12,000 withdrawal, that’s my life savings.
0:27:51 Why don’t you come with me?
0:27:54 I’ll show you how to report to the FTC.
0:27:56 What payment platform did you use?
0:27:58 Let’s contact them, too.
0:28:01 Don’t miss the TV event of the season, Safe Squad.
0:28:02 Hey Ace.
0:28:03 Yeah, kid?
0:28:04 You’re right.
0:28:07 That was one hell of a first day.
0:28:11 Learn how you can spot the signs of a scam so you don’t have to call the Safe Squad by
0:28:16 visiting www.vox.com/SafeSquadHQ.
0:28:28 Remember, never send money online to people you don’t already know and trust.
0:28:29 Hey, this is Scott Galloway, host of the PropG podcast.
0:28:33 One of my favorite things I get to do on this show is hear from our listeners and answer
0:28:37 their burning questions about all sorts of things, including work, life, school.
0:28:38 You name it.
0:28:42 And this summer, we’re bringing back the hits and covering some of our favorite questions
0:28:43 and takes.
0:28:47 Talking business, career advice, and even hearing a brand new, never been aired interview
0:28:48 about parenthood.
0:28:52 So tune in to the best of office hours, the special series from the PropG podcast sponsored
0:28:54 by Mint Mobile.
0:29:00 You can find it on the PropG feed wherever you get your podcasts.
0:29:02 You know what’s great about ambition?
0:29:03 You can’t see it.
0:29:07 Some things look ambitious, but looks can be deceiving.
0:29:13 For example, a runner could be training for a marathon or they could be late for the
0:29:14 bus.
0:29:16 You never know.
0:29:21 Ambition is on the inside, so that road trip bucket list, get after it.
0:29:31 Drive your ambition Mitsubishi Motors.
0:29:33 We’re back with PropG Markets.
0:29:35 Do you talk about money with your kids?
0:29:36 A little bit.
0:29:37 Not a lot.
0:29:44 We try to connect money to effort and what’s interesting is they’ve, I think they’ve kind
0:29:45 of figured it out on their own.
0:29:48 I don’t know, I don’t know how professionally confident they’re going to be or how much
0:29:52 money to make, but they’re not crazy spenders.
0:29:55 My older one, it kind of bums me out.
0:29:58 So it’s just the worst fucking thing in the world that they all have this haircut that
0:30:03 makes them look like an alpaca and I literally can’t handle it.
0:30:06 I want to drug them and cut their hair.
0:30:10 You know, my boys are so beautiful, they’re so handsome, and I know exactly the haircut
0:30:15 I want for them and they just, and they show up looking like this.
0:30:20 It’s awful that they look like a farm animal, it’s overgrown hair, it just, anyway.
0:30:25 But my oldest, so I was really excited, my oldest is going back, you know, I want to
0:30:28 take them out and get them some really cool clothes and I’m trying to figure out what the
0:30:29 cool brands are and I’m like, let’s go.
0:30:32 We went to Sunspeal and I’m like, I’ll catch this cool.
0:30:35 And I bought, there was this cool hoodie and it was like two or 300 bucks and he’s like,
0:30:37 I’m not going to spend that much.
0:30:39 I’m like, yeah, you’re not going to spend that much, but I’ll buy it for you.
0:30:41 He’s like, no, no, no, I don’t want you to buy it.
0:30:46 He can’t, he’s like his mom, he doesn’t like to spend money even when it’s my money.
0:30:49 And of course, the other brother pops up and he’s like, I want it, can I have two?
0:30:50 Can I have his?
0:30:53 So somehow they both ended up in different places.
0:30:56 It’s like when Michelle Obama said, the kids just come to you.
0:30:59 You like to think you’re an engineer, you’re not.
0:31:02 And so I’d like to think we’re doing a good job of connecting them to money, but I think
0:31:07 what’s strange is they don’t have a sense for how much money we have.
0:31:10 And what I try to do, I’m thinking about taking them into Africa with Scott Harrison from
0:31:11 Charity Water.
0:31:17 I just need them to see how not most people, but some people live and recognize that a
0:31:23 lot of what their success and privilege is not their fault and that the majority of people
0:31:27 in this world do not get to live like they live.
0:31:31 And I don’t blame them for not understanding that because they’ve been sheltered from it,
0:31:32 but that’s one thing we want to do.
0:31:36 But they’re pretty good around, they’re pretty good.
0:31:40 My youngest, I’m working with my youngest on the sneaker business using AI around went
0:31:44 to bid on drops for shoes and what the resale value is and we’re trying to set up a site
0:31:49 on Shopify, you know, and every week I lose money on it, but he sort of gets it.
0:31:54 He understands, okay, buy a shoe for 200 bucks and try and sell it for 300.
0:31:57 And he’s thinking about what’s the best way to drop ship for the lowest money, but it
0:32:01 has good customer service because he wants to get good reviews.
0:32:02 So that’s great.
0:32:03 He’s going to be more of the entrepreneur.
0:32:06 I think my older one is much more conservative, doesn’t like to spend money.
0:32:10 I think he’ll end up being a professional, but we don’t talk, like I’ve never told them
0:32:14 how much money we have or anything like that or, but so far, I’ve been really lucky.
0:32:19 They’re not, I mean, granted, they’re just about to turn 14 and 17, so they’re not crazy
0:32:20 spenders.
0:32:21 They just don’t spend a lot.
0:32:22 Do they know you’re rich?
0:32:23 Yeah.
0:32:24 There’s no way not to figure it out.
0:32:32 I mean, we fly private, you know, they don’t, words out, words out that we have money.
0:32:33 And they’re kind of fascinated.
0:32:34 My youngest is fascinated by money.
0:32:38 We went to the finals in the world, you know, the finals of the Euros and he said, how much
0:32:39 were these tickets?
0:32:40 I’m like, I’m not going to tell you.
0:32:43 And he’s like, do you like wants to know and he’s looking at my phone and he wants to
0:32:46 know how much the tickets were and that’s an interesting one.
0:32:51 Like, why do you not want to tell them how rich you, I mean, they know that you’re rich
0:32:56 but you don’t want them to know how rich and you don’t want, really want to put a number
0:32:57 on it.
0:32:58 What’s your philosophy there?
0:33:03 It just feels weird to tell my son, yeah, I’m spending 10,000 pounds on a soccer game.
0:33:05 So we can go.
0:33:10 I feel like that’s going to disconnect them from the value of money at that age.
0:33:12 So how do you teach them the value?
0:33:15 I mean, the Africa idea is one.
0:33:20 Is there anything else you do to kind of be like, hey, this isn’t normal?
0:33:21 It’s weird.
0:33:24 They sort of made the connection a little bit on their own because I don’t think it’s
0:33:26 been great parenting.
0:33:29 I had this really wonderful moment with my youngest.
0:33:34 He has a friend from school who doesn’t have a lot of money and his friend accidentally
0:33:39 poured milk or spilled milk on his headphones and they were ruined.
0:33:46 And so he came to me and he said, dad, I want to buy my friend a pair of the AirPod Max’s
0:33:51 that big cans to go over your ears and he said, if I put in a hundred bucks, will you
0:33:52 give me $200?
0:33:55 He’s a super nice kid and he doesn’t have a lot of money and I was just like, I was
0:33:59 just so moved by that and I thought that’s exactly the kind of approach to money I want
0:34:00 my kids to have.
0:34:04 And I said, of course, and any time you want to get money away or do something for someone
0:34:07 else, I’ll contribute.
0:34:09 That was really nice.
0:34:12 But I don’t know where they learned it, didn’t learn it from me.
0:34:13 I don’t think.
0:34:14 I don’t know.
0:34:16 So, I mean, here’s the thing, Ed.
0:34:22 You do your best, but parents are under the delusion that we’re engineers.
0:34:23 We’re shepherds.
0:34:26 We get to choose where the sheep grazes with the food it eats.
0:34:32 Maybe we can point it in the right direction, but be clear, the sheep comes to you.
0:34:36 And I think I hope what they see is that their mom works hard and is really responsible
0:34:42 with money that I work hard and they see how committed we are to our professions.
0:34:47 They see that we’re generous with our money, so I hope that they inherit that.
0:34:48 And they also see that we enjoy it.
0:34:49 I hope they inherit that.
0:34:51 I hope my oldest starts spending.
0:34:56 I’m worried my oldest isn’t going to want to spend any money and not enjoy it.
0:35:01 But I would say we’re just kind of letting it happen, which may not be the right approach.
0:35:04 My kids talk a lot or ask a lot of questions now about money.
0:35:06 They’re very interested in it, especially my youngest.
0:35:09 He asks about stocks, how stock prices are decided.
0:35:12 Yeah, I mean, their dad just wrote a book called The Algebra of Wealth.
0:35:13 I’d be shocked if they didn’t.
0:35:15 Dude, they don’t care what their dad does.
0:35:20 They literally, every time someone stops me on the street, they’re like, “Why do they
0:35:22 know you again?”
0:35:28 They are so befuddled that anyone would find me interesting at all.
0:35:29 They’re like, “What?
0:35:31 Why did this person say hi to you?
0:35:33 What do you do again?”
0:35:34 They just don’t get it.
0:35:40 By the way, the opening note of that book is a message to them, and you say, “I hope
0:35:41 you’ll read this.”
0:35:42 You think they’ll ever read it?
0:35:43 Oh, yeah.
0:35:46 When I’m gone, maybe hopefully before I’m gone, but definitely when I’m gone, I can’t
0:35:51 imagine, I’ve invested, I’d like to think so much time and love in my kids that they’re
0:35:57 going to love me, you’re banking on, you’re going to get a fraction of that back.
0:36:00 And I’d like to think they’ll be interested enough of me to read my books.
0:36:04 Let me just say, I’d be really disappointed if they didn’t at some point.
0:36:05 They will.
0:36:08 They’re going to be curious, so yeah, I think so.
0:36:09 I think it’s gross.
0:36:10 I hope so at least.
0:36:14 Have you thought more about estate planning and inheritance?
0:36:19 Yeah, I think about it a lot because now that we have real money, you have to think about
0:36:20 it and be smart about it.
0:36:22 So we work with our folks.
0:36:23 Goldman manages our money.
0:36:25 I have a lawyer, I have a tax lawyer, and they set up a trust.
0:36:30 We’re trying to figure out what to put into the trust, how to take advantage of the limits
0:36:34 on trust, figure out if Biden is going to lower the trust limit.
0:36:35 There’s all this…
0:36:36 It’s a lot of tax planning.
0:36:40 The tax code is so complicated that, and this is an advantage for wealthy people because
0:36:44 you can kind of weaponize and maneuver through it if you’re smart.
0:36:48 You want to run boat races at night if you have GPS.
0:36:52 And so the more complicated you make the race, the more advantage sheets to people who can
0:36:57 afford the technology, in this case, the advisors to help you navigate a boat race at night.
0:36:59 But yeah, I think a lot about the trust.
0:37:05 I also think about my partner is 15 years younger than me, and women usually live seven
0:37:06 years longer.
0:37:08 So she’s going to be around about 22 years longer.
0:37:13 But now I’m trying to set up, what I am thinking about is putting stuff in assets that will…
0:37:17 Like apartments, rental apartments that will spin off income because I’m turning into that.
0:37:21 I hate to say that, person thinking about…
0:37:26 So my kids have enough money that they’re never broke, and my kid isn’t going to come
0:37:28 run property media.
0:37:32 My kid isn’t going to take one of my analytics companies and be the CEO there.
0:37:36 But maybe if one of my kids doesn’t have their own professional trajectory, I like the idea
0:37:39 that maybe they could manage some apartment buildings, and that’s probably the wrong way
0:37:40 to think about it.
0:37:43 But I am thinking about intergenerational wealth.
0:37:48 But more than anything, what I’m spending the most time on is just making sure that my partner
0:37:50 is really comfortable after I’m gone.
0:37:54 This is kind of a turnaround from what you’ve said in the post, which is, I think you’ve
0:37:58 said you don’t want to leave anything to your kids.
0:38:03 Well, that’s mostly joking to justify my out-of-control spending.
0:38:04 Buffets summarize it perfectly.
0:38:07 I want my kids to have enough money so they can do anything, but not enough money so they
0:38:09 can do nothing.
0:38:11 So I’ll set up a trust for them.
0:38:14 My partner, assuming she lives a quarter century longer than me, is going to have to figure
0:38:15 it out.
0:38:19 But I’m putting in place the mechanics of it such that after she’s gone, they’ll get
0:38:23 some money when they turn 21, we’re going to give most of it away, but we’ll leave enough
0:38:27 for them such that they can afford a house, any education they want, and maybe a little
0:38:35 bit more, and have access to a little of it at 25, 35, and then access to all of it.
0:38:37 But I think about this a lot.
0:38:42 It’s a huge issue for wealthy people because you don’t want indulgent jerks.
0:38:47 And also a huge motivator for me was the fear of if I didn’t make money, I wasn’t going
0:38:48 to have any.
0:38:50 That’s incredibly motivating.
0:38:55 When you worry about taking away that motivation, but I’m not one of those people, it’s really
0:39:00 easy to say, “Yeah, once they’re through college, that’s it, they’re on their own.”
0:39:02 Yeah, I never find any parent does that.
0:39:07 None of my friends have done that, have cut off their kids, none of them.
0:39:09 I have really good friends.
0:39:13 My really good friends, Greg and Cindy, have done a really good job of kind of maturing
0:39:18 really competent, self-sufficient adults.
0:39:21 They’ve been pretty disciplined about saying, “Okay, you get a certain amount of money
0:39:25 and help you go to college and you get a certain kind of allowance, but at some point, you’re
0:39:26 on your own.”
0:39:28 I don’t know if I’ll have that discipline.
0:39:29 I don’t know.
0:39:31 I haven’t fully figured it out yet.
0:39:33 We’ll just end with this last question.
0:39:40 If there’s one thing you want your children to understand about money once you die, what
0:39:41 would it be?
0:39:44 It’s really important, but it’s a means.
0:39:48 It’s meaningful, but what’s profound is that money is nothing but something that should
0:39:54 enable you to have an absence of stress such you can focus on relationships, that you need
0:39:57 to be professionally competent, you need to be self-sufficient.
0:40:03 Making money is a lot of fun, but it’s just a means to the ends, and the ends is deep
0:40:07 and meaningful relationships, and that money can be a lubricant for that and provide an
0:40:12 absence of stress and a series of experiences that make you feel closer to the people you
0:40:16 love and help you take care of them.
0:40:20 This episode was produced by Claire Miller and engineered by Benjamin Spencer.
0:40:22 Our associate producer is Alison Weiss.
0:40:24 Our executive producer is Katherine Dillon.
0:40:28 Mia Silverio is our research lead and Drew Burroughs is our technical director.
0:40:31 Thank you for listening to Proffdue Markets from the Vox Media Podcast Network.
0:40:33 We’ll be back with a fresh take on markets on Thursday.
0:40:43 [MUSIC]
0:40:53 .
0:41:07 Hey, this is Scott.
0:41:15 Hey, this is Scott Galloway, host of the Proffdue Podcast.
0:41:20 One of my favorite things I get to do on this show is hear from our listeners and answer
0:41:24 their burning questions about all sorts of things, including work, life, school.
0:41:25 You name it.
0:41:28 And this summer, we’re bringing back the hits and covering some of our favorite questions
0:41:29 and takes.
0:41:33 We’re talking business, career advice, and even hearing a brand new, never been aired
0:41:35 interview about parenthood.
0:41:39 Retune into the best of office hours with a special series from the Proffdue Podcast
0:41:41 sponsored by Mint Mobile.
0:41:44 You can find it on the Proffdue feed wherever you get your podcasts.
0:41:47 (upbeat music)