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0:00:40 – I always thought anxiety and worry were the same thing,
0:00:42 but worry is actually, it’s a behavior.
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0:00:46 And people who are very anxious
0:00:48 think that if you just worry enough,
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0:00:53 But instead, worry can make you more anxious,
0:00:56 like you’re never gonna get to the end of the worrying.
0:00:58 If it’s a behavior, why not change it?
0:01:01 This week on “The Gray Area,”
0:01:04 I talked to Olga Hazan about our personalities
0:01:05 and whether we can change them.
0:01:07 Listen to “The Gray Area” with me, Sean Elling.
0:01:10 New episodes every Monday, available everywhere.
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0:01:55 (upbeat music)
0:01:59 – Welcome to “Raging Moderates.”
0:02:00 I’m Jessica Tarlev.
0:02:01 Scott is off today,
0:02:03 but I’ve got the great Anthony Scaramucci on the show.
0:02:05 Anthony, welcome.
0:02:06 How are you doing?
0:02:07 Thank you for joining me.
0:02:10 – Well, it’s very sweet of you to bring me on.
0:02:12 And I haven’t seen you in the flesh in a long time.
0:02:15 We used to work at Fox together.
0:02:17 People forget that, ’cause it’s probably a decade now,
0:02:20 but I hosted Wall Street Week for Fox Business.
0:02:22 And we used to be able to share the set together
0:02:25 on the Fox News channel and also Fox Business.
0:02:26 So it’s great to be with you.
0:02:27 – Yeah, those were,
0:02:30 I can’t believe how long ago that is,
0:02:33 but also how long I’ve been there.
0:02:35 Like, when I want to ask about it,
0:02:38 I’m like, it’s my entire media life has been at Fox,
0:02:39 but that was great.
0:02:40 And Wall Street Week was such a great,
0:02:43 and I don’t want to say serious.
0:02:44 It was obviously serious.
0:02:45 There was some levity to it,
0:02:47 but it was so substantive.
0:02:48 That’s the word that I’m looking for.
0:02:50 Wall Street Week was so substantive.
0:02:52 And look, Maria Bartiromo, a very good friend of mine,
0:02:53 is still doing that show.
0:02:55 She calls it Maria Bartiromo’s Wall Street.
0:02:58 And so the show had legs,
0:03:01 and I got the education of my lifetime
0:03:05 ’cause I left Fox to join the Trump administration.
0:03:08 And so it’s been the education of my life.
0:03:10 – Well, we still talk about your tenure there,
0:03:15 Scare Mucci’s, or Oscar Mucci is a…
0:03:16 I don’t want to say daily use.
0:03:18 I mean, certainly on the internet, it’s a daily use,
0:03:19 but we think about it.
0:03:21 But you have a unique perspective.
0:03:23 – Yeah, listen, I’m just glad that the president,
0:03:25 when the president goes after me
0:03:29 on his Truth Social account, he does use 11 days.
0:03:30 And I think he should be the official scorer
0:03:33 because some of these journalists that don’t like me,
0:03:35 they use 10 days, and that hurts my feelings, Jess.
0:03:38 I don’t want to have my feelings hurt, right?
0:03:41 Why chip me at a 9.1% of my federal career?
0:03:43 – No, it’s interesting that he’s the one
0:03:45 that’s more generous about it, though.
0:03:48 – Yeah, yeah, well, I mean, he knows, he knows.
0:03:49 – He knows exactly.
0:03:50 There are some things he does know,
0:03:52 and he knows exactly how long someone worked for him.
0:03:55 – Exactly, he lies about a lot of things,
0:03:57 but he’s got my employment tenure, correct.
0:03:59 – All right, well, I’m always searching
0:04:00 for positive things to say about him.
0:04:02 So now you’ve given me one.
0:04:04 – Yeah, well, I could say other positive things about him.
0:04:05 – Yeah, well, wait for the show, I was kidding.
0:04:07 I have some good things.
0:04:09 I have a list that I always go back to.
0:04:12 I talk about the Abraham Accords, we’ll always do that.
0:04:14 But he’s not always the most generous.
0:04:18 He has tweeted and then post getting kicked off Twitter,
0:04:19 he has truth socialed about me,
0:04:23 but he never gives me an extra 9.1% of anything.
0:04:25 It’s always pretty brutal,
0:04:28 but what doesn’t kill you makes you stronger.
0:04:31 – Hey, at least you’re in the space, you know?
0:04:34 I want to be in Trump’s headspace,
0:04:36 and I want to be one of his irritants.
0:04:38 – I think you’re pretty effectively doing that,
0:04:40 but let’s hope that we can continue
0:04:42 to push that goal forward in today’s episode.
0:04:45 So we are going to be talking about Trump’s explosive
0:04:47 meeting with Zelensky, the state of the free press
0:04:48 and free speech in the White House.
0:04:50 And later on, I have an interview with Governor Pritzker
0:04:52 to talk about how he’s standing up
0:04:54 to the Trump administration.
0:04:55 So Anthony, let’s get into it.
0:04:58 Last week, I think saying it got heated
0:05:01 as an understatement of what went on in the Oval Office.
0:05:02 Donald Trump and Zelensky’s meeting turned
0:05:04 into a full blown shouting match.
0:05:06 Trump aerated the Ukrainian leader
0:05:08 while Vice President JD Vance questioned
0:05:10 whether Zelensky had shown enough gratitude
0:05:11 for U.S. support.
0:05:14 Zelensky left early, the press conference was scrapped,
0:05:16 and Trump later posted that Zelensky can return
0:05:19 when he is, quote, “ready for peace.”
0:05:22 Where do you think this leaves U.S.-Ukraine relations?
0:05:24 And what’s your general response?
0:05:26 I’ve seen some of your posts on social media,
0:05:28 but for our audience, can you just talk about, you know,
0:05:30 your gut reaction to what happened
0:05:32 and where you think we are now?
0:05:35 – Well, first of all, I maintain that that was a setup.
0:05:39 And I maintain that the way JD Vance,
0:05:42 Vice President Branson, went after President Zelensky
0:05:45 was a setup and it was contrived.
0:05:48 And I, you know, I watched it now several times.
0:05:51 I think the one thing that President Zelensky did,
0:05:54 which I wish he didn’t do was he said, you know,
0:05:55 you’re protected by this ocean,
0:05:58 but you’ll see what will happen.
0:06:00 And that obviously antagonized Trump.
0:06:03 But the outcome of that would have been the same.
0:06:07 If Zelensky was Mother Teresa in that meeting,
0:06:10 and he was the combination of Keir Starmer and Macron
0:06:14 and other people that have been lauded by the press
0:06:16 for doing well with Trump,
0:06:18 it’s still that would have been the outcome.
0:06:20 They were trying to get that outcome.
0:06:22 They were trying to eject him.
0:06:25 For some reason, they’ve aligned themselves
0:06:26 with the Kremlin.
0:06:28 They use Kremlin talking points
0:06:30 when they’re talking about the Ukrainian situation
0:06:33 and the country, Ukraine.
0:06:35 And that’s fine.
0:06:37 I don’t agree with it, but that’s them, right?
0:06:39 So they went hard at them.
0:06:41 Trump is a television producer.
0:06:44 He even admitted that this is good TV
0:06:46 and reality television,
0:06:49 which Trump was a star of for many years.
0:06:50 You need conflict.
0:06:53 And so this is the conflict set up.
0:06:56 It was sort of like watching the real housewives
0:06:58 of the Oval Office when they were doing this
0:07:00 to President Zelensky.
0:07:03 And I think it has real ramifications
0:07:04 for the United States.
0:07:05 I just want to give you this analogy.
0:07:08 And I want your viewers and listeners to think about this.
0:07:10 Let’s say you have a blue collar kid
0:07:12 and he rises in his family.
0:07:14 He’s got a lot of poor people in his family
0:07:17 and he rises and he’s wealthy now.
0:07:18 And so maybe he buys a few cars
0:07:21 or maybe he helps out with some tuitions
0:07:23 or plays some emergency medical expenses.
0:07:25 That’s one family.
0:07:28 And then the other family, the same thing happens.
0:07:29 And the person builds this big, beautiful mansion
0:07:31 with a swimming pool.
0:07:32 And then they say to their family members,
0:07:35 okay, you can come over to my swimming pool today
0:07:38 on a Saturday, but I’m gonna charge you admission
0:07:40 into my swimming pool.
0:07:43 And America has to understand something about itself,
0:07:44 whether they like it or not.
0:07:47 The world sees America very different
0:07:49 than Americans see America.
0:07:51 And so how does the world, at least when I was growing up
0:07:54 in the world, the world saw America
0:07:56 as a benevolent country generally.
0:08:01 The world saw America as a peacekeeping country generally.
0:08:03 Not that we didn’t have failures in Vietnam
0:08:06 or Afghanistan and so forth, but in general,
0:08:09 we were trying to provide a security umbrella
0:08:11 for the free world.
0:08:13 And Trump doesn’t understand this
0:08:15 and I tried to explain it to him in 2016,
0:08:17 but he dismissed me.
0:08:20 Eisenhower didn’t want them to spend the 2%.
0:08:23 Eisenhower was the first head of NATO
0:08:27 and he told Marshall, don’t let him get to that threshold.
0:08:30 The less military spending around the world,
0:08:34 the better, we’re a benevolent democracy, we’ll spend.
0:08:39 He didn’t want Germany to rearm back in the 1940s and ’50s.
0:08:42 And so Trump wants them to, okay, world has changed,
0:08:46 I accept all of that, but let’s not pretend
0:08:49 that we didn’t have a thought process involved.
0:08:51 Yes, we unevened the trading system
0:08:54 with the general agreement of trade and tariffs.
0:08:54 Why did we do that?
0:08:57 We were 2% of the world’s population,
0:09:00 65% of the world’s output in the late ’40s,
0:09:03 and we were trying to create rising living standards.
0:09:07 So we accepted goods into our country unfettered
0:09:10 and we were willing to accept some form of tariffs
0:09:13 on our goods to protect those labor markets
0:09:16 so that we could protect freedom around the world.
0:09:19 Trump now wants to go to reciprocal tariffs everywhere.
0:09:24 A lot of his trade specialists,
0:09:27 I won’t go into which ones ’cause they’ll be mad at me,
0:09:28 don’t like it.
0:09:32 They think a more surgical approach would be better.
0:09:35 And so now he wants to hijack Zelensky.
0:09:38 Zelensky’s country was invaded.
0:09:43 1994, we entered into a security guarantee with Ukraine.
0:09:46 They had the sixth largest nuclear arsenal.
0:09:50 We’re trying to end nuclear proliferation.
0:09:54 Now we’re trying to increase nuclear proliferation.
0:09:55 We know that that can’t go well,
0:09:58 so we’re trying to slow it down.
0:10:01 And so then we had something called Operation Porcupine
0:10:04 where we were providing all this anti-ballistic missile
0:10:07 defense, anti-tank defense.
0:10:09 Trump slows down the arm shipments.
0:10:11 He creates space for Putin.
0:10:13 Look, we’ve got to be fair, right?
0:10:15 We’re raging moderates on there.
0:10:19 Biden mishandled the 2022 situation.
0:10:20 He mishandled it.
0:10:22 They’re too surgical.
0:10:24 They should have said to Putin, look, I’m sorry.
0:10:28 That is a neighbor you’re trespassing on their land.
0:10:29 You’re gonna get hit like what happened
0:10:31 with Bosnia and Herzegovina.
0:10:34 We’re not gonna hit you in your sovereign territory,
0:10:38 but as your troops cross into their sovereign territory,
0:10:39 you’re gonna get hit.
0:10:41 That’s our security guarantee.
0:10:43 So if you wanna negotiate something
0:10:45 and you wanna have a 10-year impasse on NATO,
0:10:48 or by the way, you wanna try to get back into the G8,
0:10:51 no problem, but you can’t come into that territory.
0:10:54 And he could have made a speech like Roosevelt made.
0:10:55 Remember when Roosevelt said,
0:10:58 well, I’m gonna lend, my neighbor’s house is on fire.
0:11:00 I’m gonna lend them my garden hose.
0:11:01 And then the people of the United States said,
0:11:04 okay, that’s Len Lise, we’re good with it.
0:11:06 Biden should have said, hey, look, I’m sorry,
0:11:08 they’re trespassing on our neighbor’s yard.
0:11:10 That goes well in Texas, by the way.
0:11:12 You know, you’re trespassing on your yard.
0:11:14 We’re gonna take the gun out and shoot the guy.
0:11:16 Okay, no problem.
0:11:18 Okay, but we didn’t do that.
0:11:21 And we set the seed for this equivocation.
0:11:24 And what we’ve done with our military the last 60 years
0:11:25 is exactly that.
0:11:28 We take measured steps, measured steps,
0:11:30 and measured steps never work.
0:11:32 And now we’ve got a good portion
0:11:35 of Ukrainian territory taken by the Russians.
0:11:38 And we have an American leader now that wants to,
0:11:39 I guess, let that happen.
0:11:43 I don’t know, but I’m against it.
0:11:47 And I think we have to get backbone in the country.
0:11:49 We have to get organized descent.
0:11:50 And we have to explain to the American people
0:11:52 why we’re against that.
0:11:56 We’re against that because we are for freedom.
0:12:00 We’re against that because 5.7 billion people live
0:12:02 under totalitarianism.
0:12:04 We’re against that because we understand our history
0:12:09 and we know if we band together, we can protect ourselves.
0:12:09 So we’re against that.
0:12:11 But if you’re telling me now, Trump wants a sphere
0:12:16 of influence and he’s gonna, I guess, annex Canada
0:12:21 and take back Panama Canal and buy or annex Greenland.
0:12:24 And he’s gonna have a North American sphere of influence
0:12:27 and Putin’s gonna have a partial Eurasian sphere
0:12:30 of influence with the Chinese.
0:12:32 And we’re going to be indifferent to Europe
0:12:35 and Eastern Europe and the Western European democracies.
0:12:36 Okay.
0:12:39 But if we’re doing that, we gotta litigate that, Jess.
0:12:44 We can’t just say, okay, we’re gonna let that happen.
0:12:46 How are we gonna let that happen?
0:12:47 – I agree with you.
0:12:51 I just also happen to think that the last few years,
0:12:52 we just had the third anniversary
0:12:54 of Russia’s invasion of Ukraine,
0:12:57 there’s been ample time for people on both sides of the aisle
0:12:59 who feel the same way that we do
0:13:04 about protecting democracies and giving Ukraine the chance,
0:13:05 not only to be a sovereign nation,
0:13:09 but to even get into NATO and to be part of this group with us
0:13:11 have had the opportunity to litigate that
0:13:12 to the American public, right?
0:13:15 There have been, you know, everyone, you know,
0:13:18 high up on either side, the Chuck Schumer’s of the world,
0:13:20 Mitch McConnell’s of the world, President Biden,
0:13:23 President Trump used to be speaking a lot more fondly
0:13:24 about Ukraine, certainly than he has been
0:13:26 in the last couple of weeks.
0:13:29 It seems like some sort of switch has flipped,
0:13:33 but the American public is not as open to that argument
0:13:36 anymore, obviously Republicans more than Democrats,
0:13:38 but over 40% of the American public thinks
0:13:40 we just give too much aid to Ukraine.
0:13:44 And we are in an enormously selfish phase
0:13:47 in American history where people are saying,
0:13:49 well, what about me?
0:13:50 What about my life here?
0:13:52 And that’s a result of the fact
0:13:54 that our leadership has never been able
0:13:58 to properly explain why USAID is a good thing,
0:14:02 why it makes sense to keep people safe and fed abroad,
0:14:05 because it pumps money back into our economy anyway,
0:14:07 but being in a safer, more prosperous world
0:14:11 is better for a safer and more prosperous America.
0:14:14 And I fear that it is too late for that.
0:14:17 I was particularly struck by the scenes
0:14:20 out of the meeting in London on Sunday
0:14:23 with all the European leaders and the NATO leaders.
0:14:27 And you think while we were a major topic of conversation,
0:14:29 the US and getting us back to the table
0:14:32 and that maybe Zelensky just has to sign
0:14:36 that minerals rights deal, which seems like a big loser
0:14:39 for him since it has no security allowances,
0:14:43 but you see the rest of the world or our friends
0:14:44 or who I thought were our friends
0:14:46 going about their business without us.
0:14:49 And it doesn’t feel like at least for the next three
0:14:51 and a half years that the US is going
0:14:54 to want back on that ramp, right?
0:14:55 We are choosing a different path in it.
0:14:58 So do you actually think it’s possible
0:15:02 to make that argument to an American electorate
0:15:04 that doesn’t seem that interested in it?
0:15:08 – Okay, so I think you’re making a brilliant analysis
0:15:09 of what’s happening. – That’s why I invited you
0:15:12 on this podcast, Anthony, thank you.
0:15:13 – Well, but– – Just say I was brilliant.
0:15:16 – Okay, okay, I do think it’s a brilliant analysis
0:15:18 and I just want to go back a little bit
0:15:21 and I want to get your reaction to what I’m about to say.
0:15:26 So I think our failure has to do with political service
0:15:31 and public service indifference born
0:15:34 from the laxity of getting reelected.
0:15:35 And just hear me out for a second.
0:15:39 So Ross Perot enters the race in 1992.
0:15:43 He gets 19.9% of the vote as a third party,
0:15:47 scares the life out of the Republicans and the Democrats.
0:15:50 They strengthen the duopoly, they strengthen it.
0:15:51 How do they do that?
0:15:55 Tougher restrictions for third parties,
0:15:58 tougher operational procedures, more signatures,
0:16:02 lots more money, can’t form a third party the last three
0:16:03 decades.
0:16:06 Secondly that happens is they go after the gerrymandering
0:16:08 with a vengeance, both sides do.
0:16:10 And I submit to you, are we in a real democracy
0:16:12 if the politicians are picking the voters?
0:16:15 I thought the voters are supposed to pick the politicians.
0:16:19 And so now we have a 14% approval rating for the Congress,
0:16:21 just above Kim Il-Jung,
0:16:26 but we have a 95% plus re-election rate for the incumbent.
0:16:29 So it’s almost like having a chef
0:16:32 got horrific yelp ratings for the restaurant,
0:16:34 but the chef is still employed
0:16:37 because it’s the only restaurant in town.
0:16:40 And so what ends up happening is they become very lax,
0:16:41 very complacent.
0:16:44 Third thing that happens is Citizens United.
0:16:46 Lots of money gushes into these people
0:16:50 from big business, oligarchs, big pharma.
0:16:51 Go look at the legislative agenda
0:16:53 over the last 15 years.
0:16:57 January 2010 was Citizens United decision.
0:16:59 It’s all skewed towards them.
0:17:01 It’s not skewed towards a little guy.
0:17:03 And then let me weave in one more thing.
0:17:05 And Bush would tell you this,
0:17:06 George Bush made a mistake.
0:17:11 Nine, in 2008, we made a decision
0:17:16 to put a trillion dollars of tarp money into the banks.
0:17:18 What Bush would tell you is
0:17:21 he accidentally created Occupy Wall Street
0:17:23 and he accidentally created the Tea Party Movement
0:17:26 because there was nothing in there for the little guy.
0:17:29 So the little guy said, what the hell is going on?
0:17:31 You’re saving the banking executive’s job,
0:17:33 I’m losing my house.
0:17:37 And then those two movements morphed
0:17:38 into the MAGA movement.
0:17:40 What about me?
0:17:44 I was once in a blue collar aspirational family,
0:17:45 over 30 years of bad policy.
0:17:49 I’m now in a blue collar, despirational family.
0:17:53 Okay, and so everything you just said
0:17:54 at the top line is true,
0:17:57 but we have to understand how we got there.
0:18:01 Okay, and this is a politician’s laps.
0:18:03 You know, you’re raging moderates
0:18:07 who used to vote for Jack Kennedy,
0:18:09 Lyndon Johnson, their grandparents,
0:18:11 or their great grandparents, Frank LaRusaville.
0:18:15 There was nobody there, nobody there to help them.
0:18:19 And so in comes Donald Trump in 2016 with his message
0:18:22 and they’re like, hey, I’m a white, lower income voter.
0:18:24 No one’s speaking to me anymore.
0:18:27 He is, I’m with him whether he shoots somebody
0:18:28 on Fifth Avenue.
0:18:33 So unless you’re telling me you’re gonna find a leader
0:18:35 that can go to the American people,
0:18:38 explain to them what happened,
0:18:42 and then tell them why where we are now is wrong.
0:18:44 And we have to reset the table for ourselves
0:18:48 and reset the table for our lower and middle income people,
0:18:51 but also stay integrated into the world.
0:18:54 You know, we got a problem because Trump doesn’t care.
0:18:56 He’s very transactional.
0:19:00 Trump is using Putin’s talking points.
0:19:01 Why is he doing that?
0:19:02 Okay, I don’t know.
0:19:05 I’m not gonna say that he’s an agent for Vladimir Putin,
0:19:07 but he acts like one.
0:19:09 So why is he doing that?
0:19:12 And then what you’re saying is absolutely true.
0:19:16 50% of the country says, I’m done helping the world.
0:19:18 I need help in my own backyard.
0:19:21 And my response to those people is you’re right, you do,
0:19:26 but we also need to help the world
0:19:27 because if we don’t help the world
0:19:29 and a fire breaks out somewhere in the world,
0:19:31 we’re gonna get drawn into it.
0:19:33 You know, USAID, you mentioned that.
0:19:35 Let me just point this out.
0:19:39 When we were pumping USAID into Guatemala
0:19:42 and into the lower part of the Yucatan Peninsula,
0:19:43 we had less border traffic
0:19:47 because it’s like an ounce of prevention
0:19:50 is worth more than a pound of cure.
0:19:52 You put one, two, three billion dollars
0:19:55 into those economies and people have jobs
0:19:58 and they have some satisfactory living standards.
0:20:00 They don’t run with their newborn baby
0:20:03 800 miles to the border, right?
0:20:06 But we’re now gonna cut the USAID
0:20:10 and so you’re gonna cause more problems, more stress.
0:20:13 But by the way, if you’ve got medical illnesses
0:20:16 and you’ve got viral activity in Africa
0:20:18 or other place parts in the world,
0:20:20 are we breathing the same air?
0:20:21 Jessica, are we?
0:20:22 I think we are.
0:20:24 So what’s gonna happen?
0:20:25 What’s gonna happen?
0:20:28 You don’t wanna stop the illnesses in Africa.
0:20:31 You want them to transfer to everybody around the world.
0:20:32 Is that what you wanna do?
0:20:36 Okay, but again, it’s the rich mansion holder.
0:20:38 Is he gonna help the world
0:20:41 or is he gonna charge them to go to a swimming pool?
0:20:43 You gotta make a decision
0:20:45 and you gotta educate your people.
0:20:47 Yes, yes, we left you out.
0:20:51 We left you out due to our ignorance and our apathy,
0:20:52 but we’ve gotta integrate you back in.
0:20:53 Well, that brings me to a point
0:20:57 that Scott has been making for the last couple of weeks,
0:21:00 is that this all has to be framed around economics.
0:21:02 Everyone is sick of the moral argument.
0:21:03 They’re done with it.
0:21:05 They’re not interested in like, well, we’re nice guys, right?
0:21:06 And this is what nice guys do.
0:21:08 They see something terrible
0:21:10 and they wanna go and help someone.
0:21:13 You have to hear about the brass tacks of what’s going on,
0:21:17 like how our farmers are benefited by those USAID contracts.
0:21:18 And a lot of Republican senators
0:21:21 have been standing up and making those arguments.
0:21:24 Senator Wicker, Senator Moran, for instance.
0:21:25 Though I am in complete agreement
0:21:28 and you said so many things that were interesting to me
0:21:30 and I’m sure that I’m forgetting some of them,
0:21:35 but I wanted to add to the Occupy Wall Street
0:21:38 and Tea Party having a baby and we ended up with MAGA.
0:21:41 And you said, we need someone who can speak to this.
0:21:43 And I’ve been thinking a lot about Bernie Sanders
0:21:47 who I have never been a supporter of in 2016.
0:21:49 I was a big Hillary person.
0:21:51 That was who the base wanted.
0:21:53 The base of the Democratic Party
0:21:55 has consistently been black voters.
0:21:58 Bernie Sanders has never appealed to black voters
0:22:00 in any sort of consistent or large way.
0:22:04 But when you look at how the coalition got scrambled
0:22:05 in this election,
0:22:08 you say like white working class people like Donald Trump,
0:22:10 well, look at the 2024 results.
0:22:14 Now it’s black, Latino and white working class people
0:22:16 and some Asian as well,
0:22:18 liked what Donald Trump was selling.
0:22:21 Now, do I think that they are permanently Republicans?
0:22:25 No, I think Donald Trump is an incredibly special talent
0:22:28 and has an appeal that cannot be replicated.
0:22:30 But obviously they are open to someone
0:22:33 that is going to be making an argument along the lines
0:22:35 of the one, frankly, that Bernie Sanders is making.
0:22:37 And he has been out there.
0:22:41 He’s on and fighting oligarchy tour.
0:22:45 Packing arenas, his spillover rooms are sometimes even bigger
0:22:48 than the main room that he’s speaking in.
0:22:51 And you see, he’s going to Republican states as well,
0:22:54 that people are hankering to hear this message
0:22:56 from someone who isn’t Donald Trump.
0:22:59 There is an understanding that Donald Trump
0:23:03 has conflicts of interest built into him inherently
0:23:04 by being a business person.
0:23:07 Not to mention the fact that his grift is so obvious
0:23:09 and we’re going to get into this crypto strategic fund
0:23:11 later on in the conversation.
0:23:14 But people are very open to someone
0:23:17 who has that economic populism to the way that they speak.
0:23:18 Bernie is filling that void at the moment,
0:23:21 but Bernie Sanders is not a sustainable option
0:23:22 for the Democratic Party.
0:23:25 He’s 83 years old and he’s already tried this
0:23:25 a couple of times.
0:23:29 So I’m very focused on who can possibly fill that void.
0:23:31 And a very smart friend of mine
0:23:35 who works in Democratic politics wrote an op-ed
0:23:37 over the weekend that he put on Fox,
0:23:38 which I appreciated because you should be talking
0:23:40 to people who disagree with you.
0:23:43 And he’s arguing for us to stop talking
0:23:45 about rebuilding the Obama coalition.
0:23:46 He’s like, it’s done.
0:23:49 We have to find a growth strategy at this point
0:23:52 and looking backwards to what worked
0:23:55 for a generational talent in 2008
0:23:58 is not going to get us anywhere in 2028
0:24:01 when we have to fight this fight again.
0:24:03 Oh, using the Kremlin talking points,
0:24:08 I cannot even imagine how good they feel in Moscow.
0:24:12 Right now you see Dmitry Peskov, Putin’s spokesperson
0:24:17 out saying, the rapidly changing US foreign policy
0:24:19 configurations coincides with our vision.
0:24:22 You had Medvedev saying something similar,
0:24:25 Putin probably thinking, how did I get this lucky?
0:24:29 And you’ve said, I don’t know why he’s doing it,
0:24:33 but I need someone to be able to tell me why, honestly.
0:24:37 I get it that he wants to pick on the small guys.
0:24:41 He thinks he can control Canada and Greenland and Panama
0:24:45 has, I think more respect for the big powers in this,
0:24:49 you know, China and Russia, Iran, maybe North Korea,
0:24:51 but it feels as if we are now living
0:24:53 in a full on gangster state
0:24:55 where there is no moral code to it.
0:24:57 And I look at someone like Marco Rubio
0:25:00 and he has been a meme many times before,
0:25:05 but now that picture of him sunk into the couch, right?
0:25:07 During the meeting with Zelensky,
0:25:10 his suit boxing up basically over his head
0:25:13 where you think, has a man ever wanted to disappear
0:25:16 from somewhere more than what’s going on with Marco Rubio?
0:25:20 And then you hear reporting that he and Mike Walts,
0:25:22 who has a similar view of the world,
0:25:24 the National Security Advisor were the ones
0:25:28 that executed the kicking Zelensky out of the White House,
0:25:31 right, and essentially saying we’re done for the day
0:25:32 on all of this.
0:25:34 And what do you think has happened
0:25:38 to these traditional neo-conservatives
0:25:40 that have found their way into the Trump administration?
0:25:42 Because I do not believe, and I know some of them,
0:25:46 that they have just wiped the slate clean
0:25:48 of everything that they have believed for decades.
0:25:50 Some of them who sacrificed, you know,
0:25:53 have veterans that have gone to fight for us
0:25:55 and protect this New World Order.
0:25:57 I don’t think that they had a lobotomy.
0:26:01 So what is going on with the people who are working for him?
0:26:06 And do you think there’s anyone that is going to stand up,
0:26:08 like there was in the first administration?
0:26:10 – Okay, so there’s so much to unpack there,
0:26:15 but let’s talk about Trump and the Russians for a second.
0:26:20 So Curtis Jarvan, who is a philosopher out on the West Coast,
0:26:24 who believes that the democracy is obsolete,
0:26:29 and Curtis Jarvan believes that we should no longer
0:26:30 have a democratic process.
0:26:35 There should be some type of oligarchic monarchy.
0:26:37 Very smart people should run everything
0:26:39 and leave everybody out.
0:26:40 And obviously you may remember this
0:26:42 from the remains of the day, right?
0:26:43 There was an allegory there
0:26:45 where they were asking Anthony Hopkins
0:26:46 to Butler questions.
0:26:48 He didn’t know the answers.
0:26:51 And then the aristocrats scoffed at him
0:26:53 and said, well, why would we give him the vote?
0:26:55 In the meantime, they’re bringing the Nazis
0:26:56 into the front door, right?
0:26:59 And the allegory was, even though you may be rich
0:27:00 and think you’re smarter than Anthony Hopkins,
0:27:04 the mundane Butler, you need everybody.
0:27:07 You need the democracy to have this sort of wisdom
0:27:08 of the collective crowd, right?
0:27:11 So there was a allegory, there was a warning there.
0:27:14 But let’s give Trump the benefit of the doubt.
0:27:16 This is a Curtis Jarvan thing.
0:27:19 This is Peter Thiel, Acolyte of Jarvan.
0:27:21 J.D. Vance, Acolyte of Jarvan.
0:27:25 Elon Musk, the same, a follower of Jarvan.
0:27:28 And Trump, who’s less organized than them,
0:27:32 more transactional, they’ve bandied together with him
0:27:35 and they wrote something called Project 2025.
0:27:38 And they’re gonna dismantle and weaken
0:27:40 the checks and balances in the system
0:27:45 and expand the executive power due to this ideology
0:27:48 that the democracy is obsolete and Thiel’s publicly said
0:27:49 that to people.
0:27:52 So that could be the best case.
0:27:55 The worst case is that they’ve laundered money through Trump
0:27:58 and they’ve laundered money through the Trump Organization
0:28:02 and he’s tied to the Russians and he owes the Russians
0:28:06 something and he’s trying to deliver to them what they want.
0:28:07 That’s the worst case.
0:28:09 Okay, so that’s Trump.
0:28:11 As it relates to Walsh and Rubio,
0:28:15 I understand that perfectly ’cause I lived that.
0:28:18 And it doesn’t reflect well on me as a human being,
0:28:19 but I did live that.
0:28:23 I was a George Bush, Mitt Romney,
0:28:25 Garden Variety Establishment Republican.
0:28:28 Actually, more to it than that.
0:28:30 Jess, I was a Rockefeller Republican.
0:28:33 I was agnostic to social issues
0:28:36 and I helped Andrew Cuomo with the gay marriage initiative
0:28:40 in 2008, but I was sort of a right of center Republican
0:28:43 as it came to business and free markets.
0:28:47 And so now Trump wins or Trump is about to win
0:28:49 and people like winning.
0:28:53 And so I start to shade myself to accept Trump’s point of view.
0:28:56 Trump is messaging something to blue collar people.
0:28:58 I grew up in a blue collar family.
0:29:00 I relate to that.
0:29:04 And then Trump wins and then six months into his office,
0:29:08 he offers me a job and then my ego kicks in.
0:29:11 And my ego and my pride, my wife hates Trump
0:29:13 almost as much as Melania hates him.
0:29:16 And I’m telling you, that’s like way up here, okay?
0:29:20 And she begged me not to do it, but I did it.
0:29:24 Okay, and that was ego-based.
0:29:25 That was egocentrism.
0:29:27 That was pride-based.
0:29:30 And Marco Rubio wants to be the secretary
0:29:33 of state of the United States,
0:29:36 second or third most important job in the world
0:29:38 or most important job in the country.
0:29:42 Mike Walt wants to be the national security advisor.
0:29:46 He served in the US military and he wants to be that.
0:29:47 And so what ends up happening,
0:29:50 you start shifting your views
0:29:55 because you want the power over your principles.
0:29:57 I did it.
0:29:59 I’m embarrassed to admit that to you.
0:30:02 Now, we were fighting in the White House.
0:30:05 I got summarily fired.
0:30:06 I remember there was one day
0:30:09 and I got fired about 24 hours after that,
0:30:12 Trump called me a deep stator and I laughed.
0:30:14 And I said, “I haven’t even been to Washington
0:30:16 on a field trip from like elementary school.
0:30:18 I mean, how could I be a deep stator?”
0:30:20 But he was implying because I was saying to him,
0:30:24 “Hey, we work for the Constitution.”
0:30:26 You know, he told Paul Ryan that he worked for him.
0:30:27 Paul Ryan looked at him and said,
0:30:28 “I don’t work for you.
0:30:33 I’m in a totally separate article of the Constitution
0:30:35 and these checks and balances are in place
0:30:39 to preserve the sanctity of the system.
0:30:42 It’s the reason why we’re so free and prosperous.”
0:30:43 Trump didn’t want to hear it.
0:30:47 And so Rubio and Walsh are now there.
0:30:50 They’re now there, they are in the barrel
0:30:53 and they are going over the waterfall.
0:30:58 Now they could say, “Hey, my personal power,
0:31:01 my personal ego, I’m going to subordinate that
0:31:03 to the greater good and I’m going to get out
0:31:06 and denounce what Donald Trump is doing
0:31:09 or I’m going to twist myself into a pretzel.
0:31:12 I’m going to speak to Caitlin Collins on CNN
0:31:15 and my tongue is going to come out like a twisted bow tie
0:31:18 and I’m going to lie on behalf of Donald Trump.
0:31:19 That’s what I’m going to do.”
0:31:21 And they have to make a decision if they want to do that.
0:31:24 Now, if you’re telling me Rubio in eight years
0:31:27 is completely morphed into Donald Trump light,
0:31:29 I don’t believe that.
0:31:33 But I believe that he is selling pieces of his soul.
0:31:37 McCarthy did it, McCarthy wasn’t there.
0:31:39 But McCarthy said, “You know, I got to be
0:31:41 the speaker of the house.”
0:31:44 He lasted 24.5 Scaramuchis.
0:31:45 That’s it.
0:31:48 But I got to be the speaker of the house.
0:31:51 Uber Alice, it doesn’t matter.
0:31:54 Okay, no, we should, he was calling Trump
0:31:56 and saying, “What the hell are you doing?
0:31:57 We need help up here.
0:32:00 There’s an insurrection that you premeditated.”
0:32:03 McConnell and McCarthy could have impeached
0:32:06 and convicted Donald Trump.
0:32:09 They blinked and McCarthy told his buddies,
0:32:10 “Well, he’s finished, he’s finished.
0:32:13 After a fiasco like this, he’s finished.
0:32:14 We don’t need to do that.
0:32:17 Let’s stay in our partisan bucket.”
0:32:19 Did Barry Goldwater do that?
0:32:21 Did Bob Dole do that?
0:32:22 No, they didn’t ’cause they were
0:32:23 from the World War II generation
0:32:26 and the Constitution was more important to them.
0:32:30 These guys’ power is way more important
0:32:31 than the principle.
0:32:35 And by the way, I get it because I did it.
0:32:39 I have to live with that for the rest of my life.
0:32:44 I moved my principles to serve Donald Trump.
0:32:46 And then I said, “Okay, that’s a bridge too far.
0:32:50 I have to tell people the truth about what I’m seeing.
0:32:52 And I have to explain to people.”
0:32:54 Now, will Rubio do that?
0:32:55 I don’t know, but he’s a politician.
0:32:58 Politicians want power.
0:32:59 You remember what Jack Kennedy said
0:33:00 about the profiles of courage?
0:33:02 They said to him, “Congratulations,
0:33:03 you won the Pulitzer Prize.
0:33:07 Yo, thank you, but the book is so thin,”
0:33:08 Senator Kennedy.
0:33:10 Why is the book so thin?
0:33:14 He said, “Well, there’s not a lot of courage out there.
0:33:18 I could only find 10 or 14 situations.
0:33:20 The book profiles of cowardice
0:33:23 would have been the Encyclopedia Britannica.
0:33:25 But I could only find a few stories
0:33:27 and that’s why the book is so slim.”
0:33:28 I love that, and I didn’t know that.
0:33:30 I wanted to pick up on something
0:33:33 ’cause you mentioned the separation of powers, right?
0:33:36 And Paul Ryan, essentially being told
0:33:39 that he worked for Trump.
0:33:43 And what’s going on with Elon Musk and Doge
0:33:45 and watching that cabinet meeting play out,
0:33:48 where you could tell that at least half of the people
0:33:53 in that room were doing a dying Marco Rubio inside,
0:33:56 watching Musk parade around in the tech support shirt
0:33:59 and having an understanding
0:34:03 that not only do the American people not want this,
0:34:05 they want waste, fraud, and abuse cut,
0:34:09 but they don’t want an unelected billionaire
0:34:12 serving himself over serving the American people,
0:34:16 but that they might not be able to do anything about it,
0:34:20 which I think is folks who have gotten into public service
0:34:23 that should at least be part of the concoction
0:34:24 of what motivates you to do it,
0:34:28 even if you are someone like a Linda McMahon,
0:34:31 or Howard Lutnick, et cetera.
0:34:36 I think that they understand that public service,
0:34:38 at least in its prior form,
0:34:42 used to be about making the country as good as possible
0:34:45 for the widest amount of, the largest amount of people.
0:34:50 And so where do you think the Musk of it all shakes out?
0:34:52 People say they’re gonna have some huge fight,
0:34:53 they’re gonna break up,
0:34:56 Trump doesn’t like not being in the spotlight,
0:34:59 and it feels like Musk is increasingly taking it
0:35:02 as someone who was on the inside of all of this.
0:35:03 How are you viewing it?
0:35:06 – Well, so I have this contrarian view on the situation
0:35:09 because Musk is the richest person in the world
0:35:13 and lit Trump up with $300 million during the campaign,
0:35:18 and he has a $44 billion megaphone known as Twitter or X
0:35:21 or whatever you wanna call it.
0:35:24 And I think Trump is afraid of Musk,
0:35:26 if I’m just being brutally honest.
0:35:28 You can even see it in the tentativeness
0:35:29 when he talks to Musk.
0:35:32 Now, he wants Musk to burn out.
0:35:34 He’s told people inside his inner circle
0:35:36 who I still speak to that Musk will get bored
0:35:40 and Musk will burn out and go back to his job.
0:35:42 Let’s let him burn out on his own
0:35:44 without us pushing him out.
0:35:46 And Trump, I know his personality well
0:35:48 was projecting in the cabinet room.
0:35:50 Anybody that doesn’t like Musk,
0:35:54 speak out or forever holds your peace, that’s him.
0:35:55 He don’t like Musk.
0:35:58 He’s trying to tell you that with his projection.
0:36:01 And so Musk will burn out.
0:36:04 You’ll find that the doge thing may save some money
0:36:06 here or there.
0:36:08 A lot of that USAID will get restored
0:36:11 in a follow-up democratic administration.
0:36:13 It’ll have to be because it’s just good sense
0:36:14 for the American people,
0:36:17 the American people have to understand it.
0:36:18 But Musk will flame out.
0:36:23 He’ll return to Tesla and X and SpaceX, et cetera.
0:36:28 And Trump will not have a Pyrrhic debacle with him
0:36:33 like he had with me or Kelly or Mattis or Mark Esper.
0:36:38 He won’t because he’s afraid of him.
0:36:42 He’ll want it and it’s in their mutual best interests
0:36:43 not to do that.
0:36:44 You see what I’m saying?
0:36:45 Yeah.
0:36:48 But that will end and I predict it’ll end quickly.
0:36:50 I see Musk as Bannon.
0:36:53 And Bannon was President Bannon.
0:36:56 Bannon was co-president with Donald Trump.
0:36:58 And Bannon lasted eight months.
0:37:02 He actually got fired on the same day that I did.
0:37:03 He’s such a baby.
0:37:05 He didn’t want to leave the White House with me.
0:37:06 So he asked General Kelly,
0:37:09 could he spend two more weeks in the White House
0:37:11 before he walked out the front door?
0:37:14 And so I think that this will fizzle
0:37:17 sometime by Labor Day,
0:37:19 Musk will be back at his job.
0:37:23 And Musk has hurt himself here.
0:37:24 He hasn’t helped himself.
0:37:27 He’s hurt himself because by inserting yourself in pop,
0:37:29 by the way, I’ve hurt myself.
0:37:30 This is your job.
0:37:31 So this hasn’t hurt yourself.
0:37:32 I’ve hurt myself.
0:37:32 You insert yourself.
0:37:36 Warren Buffett was on CBS Sunday Morning News this week
0:37:38 and they asked some political questions.
0:37:40 He said, “I’m sorry, diplomatically,
0:37:42 “I’m not gonna answer those.”
0:37:44 Okay, George W. Bush said, “Hey, no, I’m good.”
0:37:45 Yeah.
0:37:46 Okay, so you hurt yourself
0:37:49 because if you tell somebody what you think,
0:37:50 50% of the people don’t like you,
0:37:54 they stop buying your sneakers, quote, Michael Jordan.
0:37:55 Right, but Musk is hurting himself
0:37:58 because people are slowing down their Tesla sales
0:38:00 or doing certain things now
0:38:02 because of his political leanings.
0:38:06 And so I believe this ends, it doesn’t end purically.
0:38:10 And Doge, like the Grace Commission under Reagan,
0:38:15 like the something under Obama, it was a,
0:38:18 you know the guys, it was a Alan Simpson bulls,
0:38:20 it was a Simpson bulls.
0:38:22 Okay, it didn’t go anywhere.
0:38:24 Okay, this won’t go anywhere.
0:38:27 It turns out we do have some fat and double spend
0:38:30 and maybe even possibly some fraud in the government.
0:38:32 There’s possibly some Medicare or Medicaid fraud.
0:38:33 I get it.
0:38:36 There’s fraud in lots of different things
0:38:40 and we can trim it and maybe we will trim it.
0:38:42 But the best thing we could do
0:38:45 is to go back to what Bush and Clinton did,
0:38:46 which was pay as you go.
0:38:48 We had pay as you go legislation in place,
0:38:50 the regard rails put up.
0:38:52 This is the amount of money you can spend.
0:38:54 If you’re going to attack somebody, that’s fine.
0:38:55 You got to cut spending.
0:38:57 If you’re going to increase social expenditures,
0:38:59 you got to raise taxes.
0:39:01 And if we do that and we hold the line,
0:39:04 the economy will outgrow the deficit.
0:39:06 Okay, Bush and Clinton adhere to that.
0:39:10 We were running a budget surplus by the end of 2000.
0:39:13 George W. Bush unclipped us from pay as you go
0:39:16 because of what happened with the Iraqi war.
0:39:20 And by the way, he cut taxes in March Bush
0:39:22 and we went to war in October.
0:39:24 It was the first time in US history
0:39:27 that we went to war without a tax increase.
0:39:30 In fact, we had a tax cut
0:39:33 and that really started the wild trajectory
0:39:35 of deficit spending.
0:39:38 So, it’s all healable, it’s all solvable
0:39:40 but you need a long-term approach.
0:39:43 You need a 15 or 20 year plan to right size the deficit.
0:39:46 You’re not going to do it in two minutes.
0:39:50 Okay, but your points are Musk is there.
0:39:52 It’s a good idea to cut things.
0:39:54 It’s a good idea to cut waste
0:39:58 but the way they’re going about it is hurtful.
0:40:00 It’s not going to help anybody.
0:40:02 It’s that Trump was right about the border.
0:40:04 I know this is raging moderates.
0:40:06 Trump was right about the border
0:40:10 but he did it in such a vicious way
0:40:12 that it turned off a lot of Democrats.
0:40:16 So, when Biden got the job, he reversed the decisions.
0:40:19 We’re not Trump, we’re more humane than Trump
0:40:22 but it was wrong and the people poured over the border
0:40:23 and the Americans got upset.
0:40:24 Go look at the exit point.
0:40:25 Yeah.
0:40:27 Okay, so we got to be very careful.
0:40:28 Like they talk about crypto.
0:40:31 If it’s a Trump crypto reserve,
0:40:34 then when the next Democrat gets in,
0:40:36 they’re going to rip it up and throw it out.
0:40:38 It’s got to be bipartisan.
0:40:40 And we got to stop with the left and the right
0:40:42 and look at what’s right or wrong.
0:40:46 And just say, okay, is this right or wrong for our society?
0:40:50 And what Trump is doing right now with the UK is wrong.
0:40:53 It’s wrong for our society.
0:40:55 It’s wrong for the average American.
0:40:57 Well, why is it wrong?
0:41:00 It weakens the cause of freedom
0:41:02 and liberality around the world.
0:41:05 It’s bad for our markets.
0:41:06 It’s bad for the risk profile
0:41:10 of the American capital market system.
0:41:12 It’s wrong.
0:41:16 We don’t want to live in an imperialist world.
0:41:17 We don’t want to do it.
0:41:22 Living in an imperialist world will lead to a disaster.
0:41:24 And what have we learned about the imperialists?
0:41:28 Great Britain got hurt, India got hurt,
0:41:30 Africa got hurt.
0:41:32 Nobody benefits from colonialism.
0:41:35 Trump wants to take Canada and Greenland.
0:41:37 Okay, let’s take Canada and Greenland.
0:41:39 Let’s see how that goes for the United States.
0:41:43 I think you are already hearing it at the hockey games
0:41:46 about how it’s going to go for the United States.
0:41:48 No, it’s absurd, Jess.
0:41:51 And so for me, I get it.
0:41:53 Got a lot of riled people.
0:41:55 Your network does a good job at riling those people.
0:41:59 There’s a good chant about nationalism and us first.
0:42:01 And we’re tired of carrying the world.
0:42:03 But whether you like it or not,
0:42:05 Roosevelt said it better than anybody.
0:42:06 We’re integrated with the world,
0:42:08 whether we like it or not.
0:42:10 We are integrated.
0:42:12 It’s connected.
0:42:15 It’s the rich person with the house.
0:42:18 You’re going to charge people to come into the swimming pool
0:42:21 or you’re going to help them with their college tuitions.
0:42:24 Which family is going to do better?
0:42:27 Well, what about your son here in the United States?
0:42:28 Can you help?
0:42:30 Yes, we have to help him too.
0:42:31 But we have to think like that.
0:42:34 We’re 4% of the world’s population,
0:42:36 26% of the world’s output.
0:42:41 Okay, the more benevolent we are,
0:42:42 the better it’s going to be.
0:42:46 When I was growing up, when I was in Europe in the 1980s,
0:42:48 people were buying me drinks.
0:42:53 Ask American servicemen in Germany in the 1980s, Ramsted.
0:42:55 They were getting drinks for them.
0:42:57 Thank you for helping us.
0:43:01 Thank you for being part of the cause of freedom
0:43:02 and protecting us.
0:43:04 Now you go to Europe and say,
0:43:07 are you guys okay over there?
0:43:09 Why have you lost your minds?
0:43:14 Why have you flipped into this proto authoritarianism?
0:43:16 Why have you done that?
0:43:20 And the answer is, well, we have shitty democratic leaders
0:43:23 and we had a really bad intergenerational transfer
0:43:25 of leadership.
0:43:28 And so the orange man bad,
0:43:29 but a lot of people held their nose
0:43:32 and voted for orange man
0:43:34 because of what the Democrats were doing.
0:43:36 You gave this poor woman 107 days
0:43:38 to try to figure it out.
0:43:42 You know, Joe Biden and Barack Obama caused this.
0:43:45 Barack Obama said to Joe Biden, no,
0:43:48 you can’t run against Hillary Clinton in the primary.
0:43:51 Okay, so Hillary Clinton wins.
0:43:53 She doesn’t go to Wisconsin.
0:43:56 She goes one time to Michigan, twice to Pennsylvania.
0:44:00 Trump outworks her and beats her in the electoral college.
0:44:03 Okay, now we’re gonna let Joe Biden run.
0:44:06 Okay, he beats the sitting president,
0:44:09 but he’s 78 years old, not 78 years young.
0:44:12 He needs to drop out in September of 2020.
0:44:17 Joe Biden is the Marco Rubio of the Democratic Party.
0:44:18 You say, well, what do I mean by that?
0:44:20 He let his ego get to him.
0:44:22 I got the job and wanna stay in the job.
0:44:25 Lady Macbeth, Shakespeare.
0:44:28 Well, Joe, you can’t remember people.
0:44:30 If Jessica Tarlov walks into your office,
0:44:31 you don’t remember her.
0:44:32 Okay, well, that’s okay.
0:44:35 I wanna stay in the job anyway.
0:44:39 Okay, and so they embarrass themselves with the June debate.
0:44:41 Now the party’s in flummox.
0:44:45 They could have resolved that in September of 2023,
0:44:47 had a formal primary process
0:44:50 and had a young he or she Democratic candidate
0:44:52 wipe the floor with Donald Trump.
0:44:54 Think about how close that election was.
0:44:55 I know, yeah.
0:45:00 Okay, and it was, they had an unmitigated disaster
0:45:01 in terms of intergeneralism.
0:45:04 So when I’m in Europe, we got two things going on.
0:45:07 Yes, we have a Bozo movement of proto-fascism
0:45:09 that we need to put down
0:45:11 and we need to just help people economically.
0:45:13 Galloway is right, Professor Galloway.
0:45:16 It’s an economic thing and we need to make sure
0:45:19 that these people feel restored and aspirational
0:45:21 and then they won’t care about fascism.
0:45:24 And we need to fix the democracy.
0:45:28 We need to end gerrymandering, end Citizens United,
0:45:30 right size to deficit,
0:45:33 do really smart, powerful things
0:45:34 to help the American people.
0:45:37 I’m totally with you and I, you know,
0:45:38 I was young during the nineties,
0:45:40 but I talk a lot about the Clinton years
0:45:44 and how it feels like we are ripe
0:45:45 for something like that to happen again.
0:45:47 If there is a charismatic leader
0:45:50 with that kind of common sense approach to everything.
0:45:53 I just want to say, and I want to move to a conversation
0:45:54 about the free press,
0:45:58 but what you’re describing as what happened here in America,
0:46:01 which it certainly did is happening all over the world.
0:46:04 I mean, the liberal order is failing, you know,
0:46:08 across Europe, far right parties are getting larger shares
0:46:09 than I certainly ever envisioned.
0:46:14 I lived in London from 2006 to 2012.
0:46:18 So, you know, peak Obama years was there to your point
0:46:21 about, you know, during the Bush era,
0:46:23 everyone kind of banding together, but thinking,
0:46:25 you know, you guys need somebody else.
0:46:28 I was there on election night in ’08
0:46:31 and London was as jazzed about Obama being elected
0:46:33 as they were back home, but something has shifted.
0:46:37 I know the AFD underperformed what Elon Musk and JD Vance
0:46:38 wanted in the German elections,
0:46:40 but they still got a bigger share.
0:46:43 And this conversation specifically about immigration
0:46:44 is really what’s fueling it
0:46:47 because everyone has lost any semblance of an idea
0:46:49 of what borders or national character
0:46:51 means to the average person.
0:46:54 And while they might be benevolent in so far as thinking
0:46:58 that we’re pro-immigration and that people should, you know,
0:47:01 have rights to some goods and services,
0:47:05 we all basically laid down and just said, you know,
0:47:09 come on in, that will be Angela Merkel’s legacy,
0:47:11 which is sad for her and everything
0:47:12 that was accomplished during that time.
0:47:13 But that’s what I’ll be remembered from.
0:47:16 And you just have to look at what the CDU looks like now
0:47:19 to understand how badly she messed that up
0:47:22 and the lessons that that sent through Europe.
0:47:26 But we need to take a quick break, so stay with us.
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0:50:05 Welcome back.
0:50:07 I wanted to quickly talk to you about the state
0:50:10 of the White House press and free speech
0:50:11 under the Trump administration.
0:50:15 You were there for your 11 days during his first term
0:50:17 and we need your inside sources.
0:50:19 The AP filed a lawsuit against the White House
0:50:22 after restricting access to the Oval in Air Force One.
0:50:23 Following this, the White House announced
0:50:25 that they’ll choose which journalists
0:50:26 have access to the press room.
0:50:28 All of this is happening while Jeff Bezos
0:50:30 told the Washington Post staffers
0:50:31 that he’ll be making changes to the publication
0:50:34 that align more with the right leading
0:50:37 to opinion editor, David Shiffley’s resignation.
0:50:39 What do you think is happening
0:50:42 with the free press issue vis-a-vis this White House?
0:50:44 I’ve heard people on both sides of it.
0:50:46 Fox News has been steadfast in standing up
0:50:48 in support of keeping things the way that they have been
0:50:52 with the traditional press pool and with the AP.
0:50:54 But what do you think the game is here
0:50:56 for the Trump administration?
0:50:57 – Chill the press.
0:51:00 Trump hates it and chill the press.
0:51:03 You know, we were talking about Victor Orban
0:51:06 and J.D. Vance has a love affair with Victor Orban.
0:51:08 He was very happy with the way Victor Orban
0:51:11 took over the schools and the press.
0:51:13 And they want to chill the press
0:51:16 and they want to intimidate people into not speaking.
0:51:17 And you have Cash Patel has openly said
0:51:18 he has an enemies list.
0:51:21 A lot of the enemies are the press.
0:51:25 I got into trouble with Donald Trump in April of 2019.
0:51:27 I wrote an op-ed for the Hill
0:51:29 and I said it was an open letter to the president.
0:51:31 I said, dear Mr. President,
0:51:34 the press is not the enemy of the people.
0:51:35 And obviously I went into the rendition
0:51:38 of it being the forced state and checking people in power.
0:51:41 But there’s something else that’s elemental
0:51:43 to the free press and that’s our economy.
0:51:46 We teach our second graders to speak and think freely.
0:51:50 They go on to think creatively and they create Facebook
0:51:54 and Apple computer and they create things like Bitcoin
0:51:58 and other technology and great ideas and entrepreneurship.
0:52:00 If you tell somebody in the second grade
0:52:03 that they can’t talk about certain things
0:52:05 and you’ll put them in a reeducation camp,
0:52:08 if they talk badly about dear leader,
0:52:09 then they can’t create.
0:52:11 They got to steal our intellectual property.
0:52:13 And so I said the press is very important.
0:52:16 Trump called me on Easter Sunday, 2019.
0:52:18 Last time I spoke to him,
0:52:19 I thought he was calling me to wish me happy Easter.
0:52:22 He was not, he was calling me to berate me.
0:52:24 And he said that I was wrong.
0:52:26 The press is the enemy of the people
0:52:28 and he wants to chill the press.
0:52:32 My first meeting as White House Communications Director
0:52:36 in the Oval Office was, can we break up Amazon?
0:52:37 Excuse me?
0:52:40 Well, you went to law school, can we break up Amazon?
0:52:43 I hate Jeff Bezos and I hate the Washington Post.
0:52:44 – Thought anymore.
0:52:46 – I don’t want to break up Amazon, okay?
0:52:46 And I looked at him and said,
0:52:48 actually you can’t break up Amazon.
0:52:50 It doesn’t meet the checklist
0:52:52 that’s in the Sherman Anti-Trust Act.
0:52:55 Not the thing that he wanted to hear.
0:52:57 So he don’t like the free press
0:53:00 and his team doesn’t like the free press
0:53:01 and follow Victor Orban.
0:53:05 What Victor Orban is doing, Trump would like to do.
0:53:09 And so now you’ve got guys like Bezos
0:53:12 who, you know, Khashoggi got lost at the Washington Post.
0:53:14 Democracy dies in darkness.
0:53:18 Something that Bezos’s team came up with that he sponsored.
0:53:20 And he’s like, wait a minute.
0:53:22 These guys could threaten my lifestyle.
0:53:23 They could threaten me.
0:53:25 They could threaten my family.
0:53:27 And you know, there’s threats going on everywhere
0:53:28 in Washington.
0:53:29 You’re not, you’re part of the press.
0:53:32 So you know that the senators are getting threatened
0:53:33 if they don’t vote for certain cabinet members
0:53:34 and stuff like that.
0:53:35 – Right.
0:53:36 – And so Bezos, I got a great life
0:53:37 and we’re $200 billion.
0:53:39 What the hell am I doing?
0:53:42 Let me lock and load on Trump and spend some money on him.
0:53:44 Let me show up at the inaugural, have dinner with him
0:53:46 and let me tone down the Washington Post.
0:53:48 I don’t need this headache.
0:53:51 And so, but that’s the reason why he’s a billionaire.
0:53:52 And that’s the reason why you and I
0:53:53 are never going to be billionaires.
0:53:57 Okay, because, because, you know, he’s transactional
0:54:00 and he’s decided that the principles of the democracy,
0:54:05 not dying in darkness are not as important as him
0:54:07 maintaining his lifestyle and keeping himself free.
0:54:08 – But then why doesn’t he sell it?
0:54:09 – Oh, maybe.
0:54:11 – Because I mean, he has enough money
0:54:13 and it doesn’t make money for him, right?
0:54:14 And subscriptions are way down.
0:54:17 So there are plenty of people who want to buy it.
0:54:18 Why doesn’t he get rid of it
0:54:21 versus compromising his principles to this level?
0:54:23 – Well, maybe he will, but maybe he won’t.
0:54:26 And maybe, maybe, you know, people are,
0:54:27 people are funny in their own brains.
0:54:30 You know, when I was compromising my principles
0:54:31 to work for Donald Trump,
0:54:35 do you think I thought I was compromising my principles?
0:54:36 You know, maybe in his own–
0:54:37 – Maybe like, in your, you know,
0:54:38 like in the shower, right?
0:54:39 When you’re standing there
0:54:41 and you’re like doing your deepest thoughts.
0:54:41 – No, no, no, no, no.
0:54:43 I was, I was bullshitting myself.
0:54:45 Let’s just be honest about it, okay?
0:54:47 And maybe Jeff St himself,
0:54:50 I’ve really had a change of heart politically
0:54:52 and the woke-ism.
0:54:53 – That’s a huge piece of this though.
0:54:58 I mean, the, the reaction to the left going too far left
0:55:00 has been massive.
0:55:03 The amount of times in regular conversations with my friends
0:55:05 we’re all pretty normie Democrats,
0:55:08 where they talk about the Charlemagne the God ad, right?
0:55:10 About, you know, she’s for they, them, I’m for you.
0:55:13 And all the stuff that Bill Maher is talking about
0:55:16 all the time, you know, that’s pretty deeply felt.
0:55:18 – Yeah, you know, Bill, you should get him on your show.
0:55:20 He, Bill is a raging Maher.
0:55:22 – That’s where Scott and I met Bill Maher.
0:55:23 That’s our meat cute.
0:55:25 Bill, you know, I’m a huge fan.
0:55:27 I’ve been on a show many times
0:55:29 and I would say that Bill gets it.
0:55:33 And I would say that, look, if I were the Democrats,
0:55:35 I’m not, and they would never accept this,
0:55:37 ’cause again, it’s all ego-based,
0:55:40 but I would team up with the former Republicans.
0:55:42 I would, I would go to the Christie’s
0:55:43 and the Kissinger’s and the Cheneys.
0:55:44 – Isn’t that what we did though?
0:55:46 I mean, we’re sitting there with Liz Cheney, you know,
0:55:49 Kamala’s with her the day before the election or whatever.
0:55:50 – They really haven’t though,
0:55:53 because the hard left didn’t accept it.
0:55:54 They derided it.
0:55:56 And there were certain trips
0:55:58 that were supposed to be on the campaign plane.
0:56:01 And the hard left was says NFW can’t bring Christie’s
0:56:03 or can’t bring this person or he can’t bring Paparazzi.
0:56:05 You know that and I know that.
0:56:08 But what I would say is that democracy is at stake.
0:56:13 So let’s have a pro-American, pro-democratic,
0:56:18 pro-democracy party and let’s expand the tent.
0:56:20 And even though you may not like Chris Christie,
0:56:22 I do, I was one of his donors.
0:56:24 But even though you may not like Liz Cheney,
0:56:28 hold your nose and even if you don’t like AOC,
0:56:32 hold your nose, get in the boat together
0:56:34 and take out the Whig Party.
0:56:36 Let’s go over to who the Whigs were.
0:56:41 The Whigs were taken out by a new party formed in 1856
0:56:44 known as the Republicans.
0:56:48 And they went after the abolitionists in the Whig Party
0:56:49 and they went after the abolitionists
0:56:51 in the Democratic Party
0:56:53 and they formed a new party
0:56:58 and their first Republican elected president was Abraham Lincoln
0:57:00 and they destroyed the Whig Party.
0:57:04 They weakened it to the point where it disintegrated.
0:57:07 You could do that to the MAGA party.
0:57:10 You know, this party known as the Republicans
0:57:14 was a hostile takeover by an insurgent third party
0:57:16 known as MAGA or Trumplicans.
0:57:18 They call themselves the Republicans.
0:57:20 See, Trump couldn’t run as a third party
0:57:22 because he knew he couldn’t win
0:57:26 but he had to take over one of the two traditional parties
0:57:27 which he did.
0:57:29 There’s been a full decapitation
0:57:33 and a full hostile takeover of that party.
0:57:36 But the other people, the Lincoln pride,
0:57:40 whatever they are, merged them into the other party.
0:57:42 They’re all pro-democracy people.
0:57:45 They all understand that the Constitution
0:57:48 and that the democracy is more important
0:57:50 than any one individual policy.
0:57:53 I may disagree with AOC on XYZ
0:57:56 or the Amazon situation along on Island City.
0:57:57 I may disagree with her.
0:57:58 But so what?
0:58:00 She’s pro-democracy.
0:58:02 I’m pro-democracy.
0:58:05 Let’s team up like we did in the 1850s
0:58:07 and knock these guys out of the boxing ring.
0:58:08 – I like it.
0:58:09 That’s a good slogan.
0:58:11 Let’s make the 1850s cool again.
0:58:12 – Well, maybe.
0:58:13 – No, maybe.
0:58:14 Listen, I’ve always felt that way.
0:58:15 – The 1850s were a terrible time.
0:58:18 James, listen, James Buchanan, terrible president.
0:58:20 It caused a civil war.
0:58:21 A lot of things could have happened
0:58:23 to not have that happen.
0:58:26 You know, we could kill 600,000 Americans.
0:58:31 The backlash, the John Wilkes Booth assassination,
0:58:34 totally botched the reconstruction.
0:58:38 I mean, we’ve gone through very tough times in this country
0:58:39 as we’re reordering the country
0:58:43 to try to make it a more perfect union.
0:58:46 But you know, so this time we’re going through right now,
0:58:48 pales in comparison to the civil war
0:58:50 or the advent of the Second World War.
0:58:52 But let’s fix it.
0:58:54 But we gotta stomach each other.
0:58:56 Oh, I can’t work with Anthony.
0:58:58 He was once with Trump.
0:59:00 You know, my 32-year-old son has a great line.
0:59:03 He’s like, hey, Dad, you’re killing me.
0:59:05 Republicans hate you because you left Trump.
0:59:06 The Democrats will never accept you
0:59:08 because you were with Trump.
0:59:11 You’re just killing my networking opportunities, Dad.
0:59:14 Oh, maybe I’m getting close to the truth, you know?
0:59:16 – And I would say, I feel like the Democrats
0:59:19 are very happy to have you talking the way
0:59:22 that you’re talking about being pro-democracy.
0:59:24 – They don’t put me in their tent.
0:59:26 Trust me, they won’t put me in their tent.
0:59:29 They let me help Vice President Harris on the debate
0:59:30 ’cause I understood Trump
0:59:33 and I was able to get some fun lines into the debate.
0:59:36 But they won’t bring me in
0:59:38 because I’m not a Democrat.
0:59:42 – Well, I used to even have that much so less
0:59:44 since I started co-hosting the five,
0:59:46 but Democrats are suspicious of me
0:59:48 because I work at Fox.
0:59:48 – Right, exactly.
0:59:51 – Like it makes no difference what I’m saying
0:59:53 or to how large of an audience.
0:59:56 – You’re helping Fox prosper.
1:00:01 But by the way, I applaud Fox for supporting AP.
1:00:03 I applaud them for that.
1:00:06 And again, there’s opinion people at Fox,
1:00:11 there’s journalists at Fox, and that’s a point of view.
1:00:13 And we should have that point of view
1:00:16 and we should have a healthy, rigorous debate about it.
1:00:20 But the Trump stuff has taken it to a different level.
1:00:22 Trump thinks like a Victor Orban.
1:00:26 He doesn’t think like a traditional American president.
1:00:29 Okay, the president since Roosevelt
1:00:32 were grounded in some bipartisanship
1:00:35 and grounded in some Democratic principles
1:00:40 and were committed to the idea of containment
1:00:43 and the promotion of freedom
1:00:46 and raising living standards around the world.
1:00:50 Okay, they weren’t, hey, it’s my swimming pool
1:00:53 and I’m now gonna charge you to come into the swimming pool.
1:00:56 – Yeah, I think the defining distinction
1:00:58 between what’s going on right now and in the past,
1:01:00 and I’m certainly not combing this
1:01:04 to the way that we were split during the Civil War,
1:01:07 but is the information game in all of this
1:01:08 and the disinformation. – No question.
1:01:13 – Because it used to be people looked at maybe one paper
1:01:15 and odds are that you and your neighbor
1:01:17 were looking at the same thing.
1:01:22 And today people are living in diametrically opposed
1:01:24 information cesspools.
1:01:27 And we do not have a common language
1:01:30 as to what truth is, what right or wrong is.
1:01:33 Is the sky blue?
1:01:36 I got 10 people within 50 feet of me
1:01:38 who feel differently about that.
1:01:40 – And to compound that our adversaries
1:01:41 are doing that to us.
1:01:43 – Oh, they’re thrilled by it
1:01:44 and they’re doing it to their own people.
1:01:45 You know, they’ve got a plan for us.
1:01:46 – They’ve dumped in lots of disinformation.
1:01:48 Yup, 100%.
1:01:50 – Thank you so much for joining me.
1:01:51 – No, I appreciate it.
1:01:53 You’re great to have me on.
1:01:55 Please give Professor Galloway my love.
1:01:57 You know, I’m a huge fan of his as well.
1:01:58 – I will.
1:01:59 – Thank you.
1:02:00 – Okay, after the break,
1:02:01 my conversation with Governor Pritzker.
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1:03:12 That’s Polly.AI/PROVG.
1:03:19 We’re taking Box Media Podcast on the road
1:03:20 and heading back to Austin
1:03:22 for the South by Southwest Festival,
1:03:24 March 8th to the 10th.
1:03:26 What a thrill.
1:03:28 We’ll be doing special live episodes
1:03:29 of hit shows, including Pivot.
1:03:32 That’s right, that dog’s going to the great state of Texas.
1:03:34 Where should we begin?
1:03:35 With Esther Perel,
1:03:38 a Touch More with Sue Bird and Megan Rapinoe,
1:03:41 not just football with Cam Hayward and more,
1:03:43 presented by Smartsheet.
1:03:46 The Box Media Podcast stage at South by Southwest
1:03:49 is open to all South by Southwest badge holders.
1:03:51 We hope to see you at the Austin Convention Center soon.
1:03:56 Visit voxmedia.com/sxsw to learn more.
1:04:00 That’s voxmedia.com/sxsw.
1:04:04 This week on ProfG Markets, we speak with Mike Moffitt,
1:04:06 founding director of the University of Ottawa’s
1:04:07 Missing Middle Initiative
1:04:10 and a former economic advisor to Justin Trudeau.
1:04:12 We dive into the state of Canadian politics
1:04:15 and we get his take on the biggest challenges
1:04:16 facing Canada’s economy.
1:04:19 Canada’s economy is like three oligopolies
1:04:20 in a trench coat.
1:04:22 We have a lot of inequality that way.
1:04:26 We have high levels of market concentration
1:04:29 because we have this tension in Canada
1:04:32 where we want things to be Canadian.
1:04:33 We want Canadian ownership.
1:04:35 But when you do that, you create a moat.
1:04:38 And whenever you create barriers to entry,
1:04:42 you’re going to naturally create oligopolies.
1:04:43 You can find that conversation
1:04:46 exclusively on the ProfG Markets podcast.
1:04:52 Today, we’ve got Illinois Governor J.B. Pritzker with us.
1:04:53 He’s been waking up in the morning
1:04:56 with Illinois Governor J.B. Pritzker with us.
1:04:58 He’s been waking waves, pushing for more jobs,
1:04:59 affordable health care,
1:05:01 and taking on Trump’s immigration policies.
1:05:03 He’s also sounding the alarm on what he calls
1:05:05 the GOP’s growing authoritarian streak
1:05:07 and even joined a multi-state lawsuit
1:05:11 to block Trump’s federal funding freeze last month.
1:05:13 Plus, he’s backing a screen-free schools plan,
1:05:16 which I love, to ban cell phones in classrooms.
1:05:17 We’ve got a lot to cover.
1:05:19 Governor Pritzker, welcome to the show.
1:05:21 – Thanks for having me.
1:05:23 – No, it’s so great to have you.
1:05:25 You have been one of the strongest democratic voices
1:05:27 against Trump in general,
1:05:30 but certainly since he won reelection.
1:05:32 But there are some people who are saying
1:05:34 that the party is still not pushing back hard enough.
1:05:36 What do you think is the right strategy?
1:05:38 Should we just be on offense all the time?
1:05:40 Is there a risk of overplaying it?
1:05:42 How are you thinking about this?
1:05:45 – Well, first of all, I think we ought to be focused, right?
1:05:47 It’s clear they’re trying to flood the zone.
1:05:49 They want us to pay attention to Greenland
1:05:52 and Panama Canal and all these things
1:05:53 that really don’t have anything to do
1:05:56 with the lives of ordinary Americans every day.
1:05:59 And so at least we Democrats ought to be focused on,
1:06:01 frankly, what we auto have been focused on
1:06:04 in the last election too, which is affordability
1:06:07 and just making life a little easier for people.
1:06:11 How about healthcare where Democrats have the right solutions
1:06:12 and the Republicans are just trying
1:06:14 to take healthcare away from people?
1:06:17 So I think we should talk a lot about that
1:06:18 and focus on that.
1:06:21 But I think you can’t overlook the fact
1:06:24 that they’re tearing down the institutions of our government,
1:06:27 the institutions that have been established
1:06:28 under the Constitution.
1:06:31 And it’s vitally important to all of us
1:06:33 that we preserve those things.
1:06:35 But again, average folks out there,
1:06:40 if you knocked on 100 doors and talk to people at the doors
1:06:42 and I’ve knocked on a lot of doors,
1:06:45 nobody’s gonna say, oh yeah, democracy,
1:06:46 that’s the number one issue.
1:06:50 Even though it is something that is,
1:06:53 affecting people’s daily lives,
1:06:54 it just doesn’t feel like that.
1:06:56 It’s when you buy your groceries,
1:06:58 when you go to buy your automobile,
1:07:02 as soon as these tariffs go in with Canada and Mexico,
1:07:04 which make no sense at all to me,
1:07:07 unless you’re trying to provide a large tax cut
1:07:10 to the wealthiest Americans, of course.
1:07:12 But ’cause they’re trying to collect
1:07:14 from the American public those tariffs,
1:07:15 that’s who’s gonna pay.
1:07:17 So anyway, we’ve got a lot of work to do
1:07:19 to make sure that we’re communicating
1:07:21 with the public in the right way.
1:07:24 But sounding the alarm is something
1:07:25 that I think is hugely important.
1:07:26 It’s what I’ve tried to do.
1:07:31 It’s why I gave the speech that I gave last week,
1:07:34 talking about the death of a constitutional republic.
1:07:37 And I wish more people were out there
1:07:41 and out front, raising attention.
1:07:43 – Why do you think that they aren’t?
1:07:46 – Because it was a very clear message on November 5th
1:07:48 that that type of messaging did not work, right?
1:07:50 The Liz Cheney’s of the world
1:07:52 did not compel that many people,
1:07:56 or really compelled the same percentage of moderates
1:07:57 that voted for Biden in 2020.
1:08:01 It was a mirror image, essentially in 2024.
1:08:03 So there are a lot of Democrats who are concerned
1:08:05 about adopting that strategy,
1:08:08 but you seem fairly unconcerned.
1:08:10 – Well, you mean the strategy of which–
1:08:13 – Going out there when you talked about comparisons
1:08:16 to 1930s Germany in your state of the state?
1:08:18 – Yeah, but that wasn’t a campaign message.
1:08:20 I mean, that is my personal belief.
1:08:21 I helped to build a Holocaust museum.
1:08:24 I’m Jewish, I’ve been fighting anti-Semitism.
1:08:26 Well, it seems like my whole life now.
1:08:30 And so I really felt compelled to talk about
1:08:32 what’s happening in the country broadly.
1:08:37 It wasn’t about what I think the message for 2026
1:08:39 ought to be or 2028.
1:08:42 And that’s why I really think we ought to be focused.
1:08:44 If you want to talk messaging,
1:08:49 it needs to be around the challenges
1:08:52 that people are facing every single day.
1:08:55 Going to the grocery store and can’t afford eggs
1:08:59 or tomatoes or avocados or anything else
1:09:01 that you’re looking to buy,
1:09:02 knowing that you want to go buy a car
1:09:03 and now prices are going up.
1:09:06 And by the way, they promised
1:09:09 that they were going to lower prices on day one.
1:09:10 That’s what they said.
1:09:13 I don’t know how they intended to get that done on day one,
1:09:15 but that’s what they said they would do.
1:09:19 We’re on day 39 now and prices have only gone up, not down.
1:09:22 And they’re making it worse with the tariffs,
1:09:25 which again are taxes on middle-class Americans
1:09:27 and working-class Americans.
1:09:29 So I think that’s the message.
1:09:32 If you want to talk about what matters to people,
1:09:34 it’s their daily lives.
1:09:37 Can I send my kid to college affordably?
1:09:38 Can I save for retirement?
1:09:42 Is there a way to get a better wage and a better job?
1:09:43 That’s another one.
1:09:44 Let’s talk wages.
1:09:48 You want to start contrast between the two parties?
1:09:53 We Democrats, we think $7.25 as a minimum wage
1:09:56 and $14,000 a year, that’s what that yields,
1:09:57 isn’t enough to live on.
1:09:59 And we’re for raising the minimum wage.
1:10:04 Republicans, they’re either okay with the $7.25 minimum wage
1:10:06 or some of them want to do away
1:10:08 with a minimum wage altogether.
1:10:11 I’d like to fight that fight in 2026.
1:10:13 I think that ought to be a central focus
1:10:16 of at least one part of the economic message.
1:10:19 So that’s what I think we ought to be talking about.
1:10:24 Meanwhile, as you know, I do think that many of us
1:10:27 need to, as leaders, remind people
1:10:29 that the institutions of government
1:10:32 are why you’re able to get the things that matter to you.
1:10:34 And when they get torn down, in other words,
1:10:35 if you care about healthcare,
1:10:37 if you care about veteran services,
1:10:40 if you care about being able to get a rise
1:10:41 in the minimum wage,
1:10:43 you need a representative democracy
1:10:45 that actually is representative.
1:10:49 And you need to make sure that the courts
1:10:53 are forcing the administration and the Congress
1:10:55 and everybody else to follow the law.
1:10:59 But if the administration ignores the courts,
1:11:01 then boy, we’re all done for in this country.
1:11:03 We’re not gonna have a democracy
1:11:05 two or four years from now.
1:11:08 – That does seem to be the main vulnerabilities so far
1:11:13 in the first 39, 40 days of the Trump administration,
1:11:15 which is centered around what Doge is doing,
1:11:17 the kind of cuts that they’re making.
1:11:18 There have been several judges that have said,
1:11:19 “This is illegal.”
1:11:22 Elon Musk’s popularity has been plummeting.
1:11:23 Well, Trump’s gone down a little bit,
1:11:25 but not nearly the change that we’ve seen with Musk.
1:11:28 Voters two to one aren’t comfortable
1:11:29 with what Doge is doing.
1:11:31 Do you think that that is a central point of focus
1:11:35 where Democrats can play it safe in opposing Trump
1:11:37 without seeming like they’re out of step with their voters?
1:11:40 – Yeah, I was asked this earlier today
1:11:45 at a press conference, what should we do to amplify this?
1:11:48 Look, it’s happening on its own.
1:11:52 I can tell you that we’ve seen polling data
1:11:57 in the state of Illinois where back in December and January,
1:12:00 voters out there wanted leaders in Illinois
1:12:04 to work with Donald Trump to get things done.
1:12:07 We’re now a month and a half after that.
1:12:10 And I’ve seen polling data very recently
1:12:12 that says, actually, instead,
1:12:15 now they want you to resist Donald Trump.
1:12:18 So that’s the beginning of the fall of his numbers,
1:12:23 and it’s gonna be a challenging, I think, spring and summer
1:12:26 for him because people’s lives are being affected
1:12:27 in a negative way.
1:12:30 I do think that one of the things
1:12:32 that we need to be doing is talking about
1:12:34 not only preserving important institutions
1:12:37 that preserve people’s way of life.
1:12:39 By the way, do you wanna get on an airplane
1:12:42 and know that there aren’t air traffic controllers
1:12:44 in the tower that can do the job?
1:12:48 Elon Musk letting go air traffic controllers,
1:12:51 and then, I think, yesterday tweeting,
1:12:54 oh no, we need hundreds of them to come back, please.
1:12:58 The Ebola scientists that they fired and then discovered,
1:13:00 oh, I guess we do need to actually react
1:13:04 when there’s a deadly disease that needs to be addressed.
1:13:08 So those institutions, and NOAA,
1:13:09 I don’t know if you’ve heard about the,
1:13:13 they’re shutting down the National Oceanic
1:13:15 and Atmospheric Administration.
1:13:17 Remember, that’s the thing that helps you know
1:13:20 whether the hurricane is coming to Florida
1:13:23 or to Georgia or to Texas.
1:13:25 And so these are the things,
1:13:27 they tear all that down.
1:13:29 Your daily life is gonna be affected,
1:13:30 and that’s what’s happening now.
1:13:32 So what should we be doing?
1:13:36 Well, first we need to highlight what they’re tearing down.
1:13:39 Medicaid, if we’re not talking about Medicaid
1:13:42 and healthcare for people, we’re missing the boat
1:13:45 because seniors, children in my state,
1:13:49 half of children are on Medicaid, half.
1:13:54 And seniors, you know, everybody either has a grandma
1:13:57 or has a friend with a grandma who’s in a nursing home
1:14:00 because she has Medicaid and won’t be in the nursing home
1:14:02 if she loses her Medicaid.
1:14:04 So these are the things I think, again,
1:14:06 that we ought to be focusing on.
1:14:09 And I think that’s why you’re gonna see
1:14:10 those poll numbers dropping.
1:14:13 You are right about Elon Musk.
1:14:16 Those numbers have been dropping like a rock.
1:14:20 And it’s certainly a feature of talking points
1:14:23 to point at this person who is literally
1:14:26 the wealthiest person in the world
1:14:30 and who is now essentially running the US government.
1:14:31 You know, it used to be that government
1:14:34 was actually the check on too much power.
1:14:36 And particularly, you know,
1:14:40 remember Teddy Roosevelt and antitrust laws.
1:14:42 You know, that’s why there are antitrust laws.
1:14:45 You don’t want any one company or any one person
1:14:48 to have too much economic power in this country.
1:14:52 You’re absolutely free to go out and earn like heck
1:14:55 and become a millionaire and a billionaire.
1:14:57 But you shouldn’t be put in charge
1:15:00 of the reins of government,
1:15:04 which are supposed to be regulating your business.
1:15:07 – Well, especially if you don’t even have a real role.
1:15:09 And I think all of us were a little bit surprised
1:15:11 to hear that Amy Gleason is actually
1:15:12 the administrator of Doge.
1:15:15 I think she was on Mexican vacation
1:15:17 when she heard about that one.
1:15:18 But I do agree with you that that seems
1:15:20 to be the soft spot in all of this.
1:15:21 And you brought up Medicaid,
1:15:24 which I wanted to talk to you about this spending bill
1:15:26 that the Republicans have pushed through narrowly
1:15:27 through Congress.
1:15:30 Looks a bit dead on arrival in the Senate.
1:15:33 Even hardcore conservatives like Josh Hawley
1:15:34 are saying they are not going to sign anything.
1:15:38 That cuts Medicaid, like that 21% of his constituents
1:15:40 are on Medicaid.
1:15:44 But you’ve seen Hakeem Jeffries centering his messaging
1:15:46 around these cuts specifically to Medicaid.
1:15:51 What will Illinois do to protect Medicaid beneficiaries
1:15:53 if these cuts do come through?
1:15:54 Or are you guys going to back them up
1:15:56 and make sure that they still have their healthcare
1:15:59 or what can people do on an individual state basis?
1:16:01 – Well, let me be clear up front
1:16:03 that I believe in universal healthcare.
1:16:06 And that doesn’t mean that we have to have one system
1:16:08 that covers everybody.
1:16:10 It does mean that we’ve got to have systems
1:16:12 that cover everybody.
1:16:15 And Medicaid is part of that patchwork of systems
1:16:16 that we want to put together.
1:16:21 But Medicaid, I mean, I can’t even tell you
1:16:25 how important it is that we preserve that
1:16:28 and that that’s a central part of a message.
1:16:31 But what will we do in the state of Illinois?
1:16:33 Well, let me make clear what we’re talking about.
1:16:37 If they do away even just with the expansion of Medicaid,
1:16:39 and I expect based on the budget that was passed
1:16:42 in the house, if that were to become law somehow,
1:16:43 the only way they could make that work
1:16:45 is to cut Medicaid even further
1:16:48 than just the Affordable Care Act.
1:16:49 But let’s talk just about the Affordable Care Act.
1:16:54 770,000 people in my state would lose healthcare.
1:16:58 And if we were to try to make that up,
1:17:01 it would be $7.4 billion.
1:17:04 Now, our whole budget for the state is $55 billion.
1:17:07 That’s what I proposed, $55 billion.
1:17:09 We don’t have $7 billion to try to make up
1:17:12 for the federal government, not sending us those dollars.
1:17:15 So it would be devastating.
1:17:17 And what would we do?
1:17:18 Well, we’d have to, first of all,
1:17:22 we’d lose our rural hospitals and our safety net hospitals,
1:17:24 rural hospitals across most of my state,
1:17:27 safety net hospitals in Chicago.
1:17:29 And we can’t afford to lose those.
1:17:32 So we would have to shore up those hospitals.
1:17:36 We’d have to make sure that there’s as much free care
1:17:40 as we could provide, which, without having $7.5 billion,
1:17:43 it’s gonna be very difficult to do.
1:17:47 But the $700 million, $750 million
1:17:51 that the state provides as part of that Medicare expansion,
1:17:53 we would probably have to turn that
1:17:57 into subsidies for hospitals and for clinics.
1:17:59 So it’s not good enough.
1:18:01 Honestly, I mean, it’s what we would be able to do,
1:18:03 but it’s not good enough.
1:18:05 And that’s why we’ve gotta go out all of us
1:18:06 and fight like heck.
1:18:09 One more thing, the people who will lose their healthcare
1:18:11 as a result of what they’re trying to do
1:18:15 in the House budget, many of them are Republicans.
1:18:18 Indeed, I think about half in Illinois.
1:18:21 And we’re not a 50/50 Democrat-Republican state,
1:18:23 but half the people who would lose Medicaid
1:18:25 as a result of that would be people
1:18:27 who live in Republican districts.
1:18:30 And they’re, typically, they are Republicans.
1:18:35 Rural Americans who have most often voted for Donald Trump
1:18:38 didn’t know when they voted for him this last time
1:18:41 that they’d be losing their healthcare.
1:18:43 So I don’t know what to say.
1:18:45 I mean, I’m frustrated as heck by this
1:18:47 because if I had the resources available,
1:18:49 of course I would put that back in place
1:18:52 and make sure that people are not harmed
1:18:54 by what the Congressional Republicans
1:18:56 and Donald Trump are doing.
1:18:59 Last thing on this topic, which is, or at least for me,
1:19:02 Donald Trump says, he keeps saying,
1:19:05 “Oh no, he’s not gonna hurt,
1:19:08 he’s not gonna cut Medicaid, Medicare,
1:19:09 or Social Security.”
1:19:12 Well, meanwhile, indeed,
1:19:16 he endorsed the Republican plan in the House
1:19:18 that would cut Medicaid.
1:19:21 So he’s lying.
1:19:22 I mean, I don’t think that’s a surprise
1:19:24 to a lot of people, he’s lying.
1:19:26 But if he’s lying about Medicaid,
1:19:30 is he lying about Medicare and Social Security?
1:19:31 Probably, we don’t know yet,
1:19:35 but you ought to be awfully suspicious.
1:19:36 – Absolutely.
1:19:39 I think that they often rely on the fact
1:19:41 that some of their own supporters
1:19:43 aren’t necessarily going to actually look
1:19:45 at the language of the bill or connect the dots for them.
1:19:47 But I think the Democrats have actually done
1:19:49 a very good job of drawing that line
1:19:51 straight to the Medicaid pot.
1:19:54 And I’m glad to hear that you do have a backup plan,
1:19:57 though obviously these things will not be adequate
1:19:58 to compensate for it.
1:20:00 And it’s a tough position to be in,
1:20:03 to be championing what the federal government
1:20:04 is doing for you.
1:20:06 ‘Cause I think people, generally speaking,
1:20:09 are suspicious of it or aren’t taking account
1:20:10 of the things in their daily lives
1:20:12 that are from the government.
1:20:14 But it seems like the smartest way forward with us
1:20:16 to say there are inefficiencies,
1:20:19 but you get a hell of a lot out of the federal government.
1:20:21 – Yeah, and I think it’s okay
1:20:23 to talk about the inefficiencies.
1:20:23 – Yes.
1:20:26 – I admit that government, listen, I’ve seen it,
1:20:29 I was in business before I became governor.
1:20:31 I, now I’m in charge of a government.
1:20:34 And I can tell you that there are inefficiencies everywhere
1:20:37 and waste fraud and abuses people like to talk about it.
1:20:41 It exists for sure and we’re always trying to root it out.
1:20:44 But unlike using a chainsaw,
1:20:46 the way that Elon Musk talks about
1:20:50 and just cutting programs entirely,
1:20:52 instead what you need to do,
1:20:54 and this is the hard work of governing by the way,
1:20:56 is you need to go into the agencies
1:20:59 and task the people who are running the agencies
1:21:04 with finding the areas of inefficiency and ineffectiveness.
1:21:07 And I wanna focus on that last part
1:21:10 because effectiveness is the important part
1:21:11 of these programs.
1:21:14 People need healthcare, they want efficiency,
1:21:17 but most of all, they wanna deliver it effectively to them.
1:21:20 And that involves efficiency.
1:21:23 So I say that because delivering,
1:21:27 making our institutions work is really important
1:21:30 for reinstilling trust that people have in government.
1:21:33 ‘Cause I get it, people don’t trust government.
1:21:36 And you know, I’m, again, I came from outside of government.
1:21:39 I can tell you, you know, when I saw, for example,
1:21:43 that in Illinois, when I showed up,
1:21:47 my predecessor, the Republican who preceded me,
1:21:52 had left 140,000 Medicaid applications
1:21:53 that they hadn’t looked at.
1:21:55 And they were basically just delaying
1:21:56 giving people their healthcare
1:21:59 because he didn’t wanna pay for it, right?
1:22:02 That’s ineffective and inefficient.
1:22:03 You need people to get healthcare,
1:22:06 otherwise they’re gonna end up in an emergency room,
1:22:07 it’ll cost you a lot more.
1:22:09 And then there are a whole lot of things
1:22:12 that happen in government that take too long.
1:22:14 And so we’ve gotta just acknowledge those things
1:22:17 and recognize that, of course, there’s inefficiency.
1:22:18 If people are all excited about,
1:22:20 oh, a department of government efficiency,
1:22:22 that sounds great.
1:22:25 But I have to say, not if they’re taking away
1:22:26 the things that really matter to you,
1:22:30 like childcare, like meals on wheels, like Medicaid.
1:22:31 – Absolutely.
1:22:32 I wanna switch gears a little bit
1:22:34 and talk about immigration,
1:22:36 which was such a central piece
1:22:38 of the presidential election, obviously.
1:22:42 And what happened under the Biden administration
1:22:45 hurt candidate Biden and then candidate Harris,
1:22:49 a lot more than maybe some expected it to.
1:22:51 You have discussed the fact that you will cooperate
1:22:53 with ICE and so far as they are coming
1:22:56 to pick up convicted criminals.
1:22:58 Tom Homan has shown up, the borders are,
1:23:02 in Chicago is talking about rounding up people.
1:23:03 Where does all of that stand?
1:23:05 And what are you doing in Illinois to make sure
1:23:08 that you can be responsive to the way that people voted
1:23:11 and that they believe there is a migrant crisis going on
1:23:13 and also protecting people?
1:23:14 – Yeah.
1:23:16 Well, we’ve gotta have an immigration policy
1:23:18 that actually makes some sense.
1:23:23 They showed up in Chicago, Tom Homan did,
1:23:26 and ICE with Dr. Phil in tow.
1:23:30 – What do you have against Dr. Phil?
1:23:34 – It’s, listen, I think everybody in government
1:23:38 could use a therapist, but the fact is that showing up
1:23:41 with a television personality, I mean,
1:23:45 it really tells you it’s all for show.
1:23:49 And they want to parade in front of the cameras,
1:23:53 the undocumented immigrants that they’re finding.
1:23:55 When it turns out that first of all,
1:23:58 quite a number of the people that they rounded up
1:24:00 are actually US citizens.
1:24:03 And they just didn’t, like none of us,
1:24:05 walk around with our citizenship papers, right?
1:24:10 That sounds an awful lot like Germany in the 1930s.
1:24:13 And that’s not something that,
1:24:16 so people got rounded up and taken to Guantanamo
1:24:19 and you’ve read some of the stories about that.
1:24:25 So it’s been a terrible show for everybody
1:24:29 first of all.
1:24:32 And second of all, you have to have a coherent policy.
1:24:33 You can’t just say we’re going
1:24:36 after all the undocumented immigrants.
1:24:38 Let’s start with the most violent,
1:24:41 the people who’ve been convicted of a crime.
1:24:44 I think none of us out here, governors,
1:24:47 anybody believes that someone who’s been convicted
1:24:49 of a violent crime who’s undocumented
1:24:51 deserves to stay in this country.
1:24:53 So fine, come get ’em.
1:24:54 That’s great.
1:24:57 We’ve always wanted help trying to arrest people
1:24:59 who are violent criminals.
1:25:01 But they’re not showing up at our prisons
1:25:06 and our jails with warrants from a court,
1:25:08 which is all you need, right?
1:25:10 And it would be easy to get to say
1:25:13 this person’s undocumented, we should deport them.
1:25:14 Why aren’t they doing it?
1:25:15 It’s one of two things.
1:25:18 Either they’re smart enough to recognize
1:25:22 that if you take people who are undocumented
1:25:26 out of prison and then deport them and let them free,
1:25:28 that they might end up coming back
1:25:30 to the United States, these are violent criminals.
1:25:34 We caught them, we convicted them, we put them in prison.
1:25:38 So you don’t really wanna let them go.
1:25:42 That’s, perhaps they understand that, perhaps.
1:25:44 But they’re not showing up at our prisons
1:25:47 and our jails with warrants to take them away.
1:25:51 The second thing I think just to point out
1:25:54 is that there are a lot of undocumented people
1:25:58 who live in Illinois and all across the country
1:26:03 who are law-abiding citizens or residents, rather,
1:26:06 who hold down jobs, they pay taxes.
1:26:08 They’re actually pillars of their community.
1:26:10 There are neighbors and our friends often.
1:26:12 And these are the very people
1:26:15 that if you had a good immigration policy,
1:26:16 you’d want to come into the country.
1:26:17 So if they’re already here,
1:26:20 how about we give them a path to staying here?
1:26:23 Again, these are people, law-abiding good people,
1:26:26 some of them own businesses or they’ve been,
1:26:28 they’ve started businesses in this country.
1:26:31 So, and then the last point I’ll make is that,
1:26:33 ’cause again, I’m a business person,
1:26:35 I, you look at the Fortune 500,
1:26:40 46% of Fortune 500 companies were founded by immigrants
1:26:42 or their children, their first generation children.
1:26:44 We want immigration in this country.
1:26:46 It’s good for our economy.
1:26:49 It’s good for the future of the country.
1:26:50 And with birth rates going down,
1:26:52 we’re the one country in the world
1:26:56 that is founded in many ways on immigration.
1:26:58 And so we ought to take advantage of that
1:27:01 when you look at all the other wealthy countries in the world.
1:27:04 We’re the one that really has the opportunity
1:27:06 to take advantage of our history
1:27:08 and our belief in immigration
1:27:11 to help ourselves in the world economy.
1:27:14 – I agree with you on the point, the larger point,
1:27:18 but I can’t escape the fact that here I’m in New York City,
1:27:20 people in Chicago felt exactly the same way
1:27:22 that the migrant crisis got wildly out of control
1:27:25 and that we essentially had an open border policy.
1:27:27 And then once some Republican governors
1:27:31 started busing migrants up to our cities,
1:27:34 that we realized what life is like in Eagle Pass, Texas
1:27:36 for our fellow Americans there.
1:27:39 And there were a number of city council meetings in Chicago
1:27:40 that were widely covered.
1:27:43 We did here at Fox where residents were showing up
1:27:45 and talking about how their resources
1:27:48 were being diverted to people who were here illegally
1:27:50 and that that wasn’t okay,
1:27:52 that it had to be in this sense, America first.
1:27:53 And that’s been a key contributor
1:27:57 to Mayor Brandon Johnson’s low approval rating.
1:28:00 I believe it was 6% in an M3 poll that came out
1:28:02 earlier this week.
1:28:06 What can be done about that to make sure that,
1:28:08 people who love the cities that they live in,
1:28:11 who love immigrants the way that you’re talking about,
1:28:13 but feel like we’re not on there,
1:28:16 or people in elected office are not on their side,
1:28:19 feel like they’re more responsive to them.
1:28:23 – Well, I was a critic of the Biden administration’s policy.
1:28:27 In fact, I reluctantly, I wrote a public letter,
1:28:30 I sent it to the president and made it public
1:28:33 about the mistakes that I think were being made
1:28:35 at the border and the ways in which
1:28:37 the federal government needed to step up
1:28:40 and do a better job on immigration,
1:28:42 particularly around the migrants.
1:28:44 Meanwhile, just to be clear,
1:28:45 and I know there were a lot of people,
1:28:47 not just in Chicago, but around the country,
1:28:50 who were upset about migrants showing up
1:28:54 in their communities, and it cost our state
1:28:57 quite a lot of money in our city of Chicago.
1:29:01 But let me be clear, this was a humanitarian crisis
1:29:02 from my perspective.
1:29:06 I didn’t create the crisis, but all of a sudden,
1:29:07 as you’re pointing out, buses showed up
1:29:09 and they were aimed at Chicago.
1:29:12 It wasn’t like people just naturally decided
1:29:14 in the middle of winter, they’re gonna get on a bus
1:29:18 from Texas and go to Chicago, and indeed,
1:29:20 people showed up here with t-shirts
1:29:22 and sandals on when they arrived.
1:29:26 So it was an enormous challenge.
1:29:31 The policy wasn’t right, but when people show up,
1:29:35 we’re Americans, at that moment,
1:29:38 when someone is without shelter,
1:29:42 without the proper clothing and needing to be fed,
1:29:44 you do all those things, and we did those things
1:29:46 because it was the right thing to do.
1:29:48 But yeah, the policy was wrong,
1:29:53 and we need to have border security,
1:29:57 and I love, by the way, that Ruben Gallego,
1:29:59 I think, says it best.
1:30:03 You don’t have a country if you don’t have a secure border.
1:30:04 So let’s have a secure border,
1:30:08 but let’s also have robust immigration,
1:30:10 and immigration that isn’t just about people
1:30:12 who are willing to pay $5 million,
1:30:15 or have $5 million to pay for a gold card
1:30:17 to get into the country and take advantage of
1:30:19 whatever tax breaks they might be given,
1:30:23 but also immigration that allows people like my family,
1:30:27 who came here three generations ago, and had nothing.
1:30:29 We were refugees from Ukraine,
1:30:31 would have been killed had they stayed,
1:30:35 as many Jews were, and were allowed to come
1:30:38 into this country and had nothing,
1:30:42 but the most driven people that are in our country
1:30:43 are often the people who show up
1:30:46 from somewhere else escaping something,
1:30:49 wanting to make a better life for them themselves
1:30:52 and their families, and so that’s the,
1:30:54 it’s a challenge, there’s no doubt,
1:30:57 but it doesn’t seem, frankly, all that complicated
1:31:01 if you secure the border, which we can do.
1:31:03 It seems like it’s happening now,
1:31:05 but you can secure the border,
1:31:07 but also think about the economic future,
1:31:09 the country is dependent upon
1:31:11 having more immigration at less.
1:31:14 – Absolutely, I want to stick on Chicago for a second
1:31:17 and talk about the public school education problem,
1:31:19 which is not just an issue for Chicago,
1:31:20 it’s happening nationally,
1:31:22 but particularly pronounced there,
1:31:26 bad testing rates, you have low enrollment,
1:31:27 kids not showing up to school,
1:31:30 teachers unions want a new contract.
1:31:31 How do you think we can revive
1:31:33 the American public school system?
1:31:36 – Yeah, invest in it, let’s begin with that.
1:31:41 But also I’d like to just challenge
1:31:44 at least a couple of notions you put forward.
1:31:47 The NAEP scores, which are the English,
1:31:52 the reading and math scores that are done nationally,
1:31:55 these are the tests that are given all across the nation,
1:32:00 just came out and our eighth graders in Illinois
1:32:02 came in second in the nation,
1:32:03 number one was Massachusetts,
1:32:05 number two was Illinois.
1:32:10 Our eighth graders in math came in fifth in the nation.
1:32:12 So we’re actually doing pretty well,
1:32:15 I’m talking about the state of Illinois
1:32:18 is doing reasonably well.
1:32:20 There are always challenges in big cities
1:32:23 versus other places like suburbs, for example,
1:32:26 but that doesn’t mean we got to give up on those kids
1:32:29 or give up on investing in those schools,
1:32:31 but they do need to be managed well
1:32:33 and we do need to attract teachers.
1:32:37 We don’t have enough teachers and we’re gonna need more
1:32:41 and we have put in programs I have to attract teachers
1:32:45 to provide signing bonuses to help them get housing
1:32:47 and so on and we have the ability to attract them
1:32:50 because we pay reasonably well
1:32:52 if you wanna be a teacher in Chicago
1:32:54 or anywhere in the state of Illinois.
1:32:56 So it’s an attractive place to teach,
1:33:00 but we got to invest in these schools.
1:33:03 We’re not fully invested in the state of Illinois,
1:33:04 we’re trying really hard.
1:33:09 I inherited a fiscal situation that was terrible in 2019
1:33:13 when I came into office and we’ve gotten nine credit upgrades
1:33:15 and we’ve finally got a rainy day fund
1:33:18 and we’ve increased funding for education
1:33:21 by more than $2 billion since I came into office
1:33:23 and we’re continuing that with the proposed budget
1:33:25 I put in place.
1:33:30 But the fact is that our kids are worth investing in
1:33:36 and I would say the wraparound services
1:33:38 that you need for their families
1:33:42 is also hugely important in order for our kids
1:33:43 to get ahead.
1:33:46 Last point I’ll make on this, early childhood education,
1:33:49 I’ve been involved in this arena for 25 years
1:33:50 long before I was governor,
1:33:54 is perhaps the most important arena for us to invest in.
1:33:57 It’s a universal preschool,
1:34:02 but it’s also everything from early intervention services
1:34:06 which can make the difference between a child growing up
1:34:09 with challenges and autism their whole life
1:34:14 or perhaps being able to actually join a classroom
1:34:19 in a public school and graduate and go to college.
1:34:21 Those early intervention investments
1:34:25 make a big difference, so do home visitation programs.
1:34:29 We’ve seen that nurses or professionals showing up
1:34:31 and helping parents do a better job
1:34:33 and answer questions for them
1:34:38 and providing them a healthcare check.
1:34:39 Makes a big difference.
1:34:42 So I mentioned all that because I think people think
1:34:46 that well, children are not doing well in school
1:34:47 if our school isn’t doing well.
1:34:50 Well, maybe we ought to divest from schools
1:34:51 and just let it kind of happen
1:34:53 on its own private market.
1:34:55 And the reality is that public education
1:34:57 is the foundation of our democracy
1:35:01 and we need to invest in it, not divest.
1:35:01 – Yeah.
1:35:04 I wanted to, as an extension of the school conversation,
1:35:06 could you talk a little bit about your push to ban
1:35:09 cell phones in school and some of what you’re hearing
1:35:11 also from concerned parents
1:35:12 that they won’t be able to reach their kids
1:35:14 if, God forbid, there’s an emergency.
1:35:15 – Yeah.
1:35:18 And that was a very important thing that I considered
1:35:19 as I put the policy together.
1:35:25 First, we need kids to be focused in class.
1:35:29 We need teachers to not have to fight the fight
1:35:35 with students about their devices in class.
1:35:39 And if you ask teachers and ask most parents,
1:35:42 and I have done that.
1:35:45 I’ve talked to an awful lot of people about this.
1:35:47 Most parents will tell you they would rather
1:35:50 their kids didn’t have those devices in class.
1:35:52 They do want them to have them in school though.
1:35:54 They want, in other words, it’s okay with them
1:35:56 if it’s in their locker
1:35:58 or if they check them in outside the classroom.
1:36:01 They want their kids though to be able to focus in class
1:36:03 and they want their teachers to be able
1:36:05 to focus on their kids in class.
1:36:09 So parents, generally speaking, very much in favor.
1:36:14 How do we take care of the problem where their parents,
1:36:17 remember, there are some kids who actually need
1:36:21 to have a device because there are a variety of reasons why,
1:36:24 but one is just anxiety.
1:36:28 So that’s just one example.
1:36:30 But what we’ve done is proposed a policy
1:36:34 where the schools get to work on their individual policies,
1:36:37 but they’re designed to have exceptions.
1:36:39 Again, there are also health needs.
1:36:42 I mentioned a mental health need and anxiety,
1:36:43 but there are other health needs,
1:36:45 diabetes, for example.
1:36:50 And we’ve got automatic readers for people who have diabetes.
1:36:51 So these are all things
1:36:52 that are taken into account in this policy.
1:36:56 Broadly speaking though, this is hugely popular.
1:36:57 There’s just no doubt about it.
1:36:58 And it’s the right thing to do.
1:37:01 And I have kids who graduated just two, three,
1:37:06 four years ago, two of them from high school.
1:37:09 And I went and asked them about how distracting is it?
1:37:14 And also, did your friends experience cyberbullying
1:37:16 in classes?
1:37:18 And the answer is yes.
1:37:21 That there was that going on just in a single classroom.
1:37:23 People are getting bullied on their device.
1:37:28 So I think the trade-off is actually a really positive one.
1:37:31 Just leave the device outside the door.
1:37:34 There’s a way to lock them up.
1:37:37 And you can get it when you leave class.
1:37:40 And for the most part, it’s not gonna be a problem
1:37:43 and schools get to make those decisions for themselves.
1:37:46 – Last thing, and I do this with all of our guests.
1:37:49 What’s one thing that makes you rage?
1:37:49 And what’s one thing
1:37:52 that you think we should all just calm down about?
1:37:53 – Yeah.
1:37:57 You know, one thing that makes me rage is,
1:37:59 and this is a funny thing to say in the context
1:38:04 of that question is I watch our public officials
1:38:06 and what’s happening in our political life.
1:38:11 And it’s like people have forgotten how to be kind.
1:38:13 And it seems to me that the whole purpose
1:38:17 of public service is to deliver
1:38:18 what people need to make their lives better.
1:38:21 And that seems like a part of the answer
1:38:24 to the question of how can you be kind?
1:38:26 And we ought to be kind to one another.
1:38:29 And what makes me rage is to look at the political arena
1:38:33 and see that that seems to have gone out the window.
1:38:36 And so it drives me crazy.
1:38:38 It’s not something, I’m not a person
1:38:40 who will rage in public,
1:38:43 but you saw the speech that I gave.
1:38:44 – Yeah.
1:38:48 – About the death of a constitutional Republican.
1:38:51 And obviously my experience,
1:38:55 my own family escaped the pogroms in Ukraine.
1:38:57 I helped to build a Holocaust museum.
1:39:00 So you can imagine that watching our constitutional democracy
1:39:05 be torn apart is enraging to me.
1:39:07 – Absolutely, and calm down about something?
1:39:10 Or should we just stay?
1:39:12 – I’m not sure what to calm down about right now.
1:39:15 That’s an answer, I totally get it.
1:39:18 – But I do think we’ve got a lot of work
1:39:21 to do, all of us to refocus ourselves
1:39:23 on the direction of the country.
1:39:27 And again, on the most vulnerable people in our society,
1:39:30 working-class Americans, middle-class Americans,
1:39:32 that’s where we ought to be focusing.
1:39:34 And not letting the richest man in the world
1:39:37 dictate the policies of the US government.
1:39:39 – Amen to that.
1:39:40 All right, Governor Pritzker,
1:39:41 thank you so much for your time.
1:39:43 I left getting to interview.
1:39:44 – Appreciate you.
1:39:47 – Thank you all for listening to “Raging Moderates.”
1:39:50 Our producers are David Toledo and Shanayne Onike,
1:39:52 our technical director is Drew Burroughs.
1:39:53 You can now find “Raging Moderates”
1:39:55 on its own feed every Tuesday.
1:39:56 That’s right, its own feed.
1:39:58 And there you’ll get exclusive interviews
1:39:59 with smart voices and politics.
1:40:01 Please follow us wherever you get your podcasts.
1:40:02 Thanks.
1:40:05 (upbeat music)

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0:00:42 >> Thumbtack presents the ins and outs of caring for your home.
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0:01:11 Download Thumbtack today.
0:01:14 >> It might be enticing to try and sleep through the next four years.
0:01:17 But if you’re wondering how to survive a second Trump term while
0:01:21 staying fully conscious, Pod Save America is here to help you
0:01:24 process what’s happening now and what comes next.
0:01:27 Every Tuesday, Wednesday and Friday, John Lovett, Tommy Veter,
0:01:31 John Favreau, and Dan Pfeiffer weighed hip deep into the week’s
0:01:34 political news and fish out some political analysis you can trust.
0:01:36 Yes, Tommy’s shoes get ruined.
0:01:41 Yes, he’ll do it again tomorrow because the endeavor is worth it.
0:01:43 And so is your sanity.
0:01:48 Tune into Pod Save America wherever you get your podcasts and on YouTube.
0:01:51 >> Today’s number, $49 million.
0:01:54 That’s how much New York City’s congestion pricing tolls brought in
0:01:55 during the program’s first month.
0:01:57 This is an actual true story.
0:02:00 And when I first moved to New York, my first date was with a woman
0:02:04 named Martha who took me to, no joke, a sex club.
0:02:06 And one of us had sex and it wasn’t me, Ed.
0:02:19 >> That’s a true story.
0:02:20 >> That’s not a true story.
0:02:21 >> No, it’s a true story.
0:02:24 The club was called Trapeze.
0:02:25 >> You’re going to have to elaborate.
0:02:27 It’s the final part that I’m really intrigued in.
0:02:30 >> I met this woman, a really interesting woman, nice.
0:02:31 It was a very attractive tour.
0:02:34 And I had this big duck.
0:02:37 I lived at one Greenwich and I had basically this like 700-foot apartment
0:02:41 with a 3,000 square foot duck, see above single and desperate.
0:02:45 And I used to have parties and people and I met this woman super hot,
0:02:47 seemed super cool.
0:02:51 Yeah, passed her out, kept asking her out.
0:02:53 And finally I’m like, I’m getting nothing back here.
0:02:54 And she’s like, I have something I think you’re going to like.
0:02:56 And she showed up and said, I’m going to handle everything.
0:03:01 And we went to this place with the Westfield or so, going to ground.
0:03:04 It’s like 300 bucks for the dude and nothing for the woman.
0:03:06 I’m like, well, that’s going to be interesting.
0:03:09 And they give you a towel and she changed into a towel.
0:03:12 And anyway, she ended up making out and fooling around with a woman.
0:03:13 >> That is crazy.
0:03:16 >> That was my big New York story.
0:03:20 NYU professor, would you let your kid take class with me?
0:03:23 Yeah, you didn’t do anything wrong.
0:03:26 I mean, you shouldn’t have pursued this woman specifically, clearly.
0:03:27 >> Oh, I was so excited.
0:03:36 I think I still probably text her, saying she’s going to be another shot of trapeze.
0:03:40 >> What happened in the basement, water under the bridge, let’s start over.
0:03:46 >> Actually, also my other New York joke, New York is just full of rats.
0:03:51 I made actually friends with this rat, and this ridiculously hot woman walked by.
0:03:52 I’m like, did you see the ass on that woman?
0:03:57 He said, well, actually, I’m a tit rat myself.
0:03:59 >> I prefer the real stories.
0:04:01 >> That’s why you come here.
0:04:03 This isn’t CNBC.
0:04:03 >> Agreed.
0:04:06 >> Let’s start with our weekly review of market vitals.
0:04:12 [MUSIC]
0:04:17 >> The S&P 500 declined, the dollar rose, Bitcoin fell, and the yield on 10-year
0:04:20 treasuries hit its lowest level since December.
0:04:21 Shifting to the headlines.
0:04:25 Tessa’s market cap has fallen below $1 trillion,
0:04:28 erasing nearly all of the stock’s post-election gains.
0:04:31 Shares are down more than 25% so far this year,
0:04:36 as investor concerns mount to overgrown competition and Elon Musk controversies.
0:04:41 Warren Buffett announced that Berkshire Hathaway paid nearly $27 billion in taxes
0:04:46 in 2024, that is the largest tax bill ever paid by a U.S. company,
0:04:51 accounting for roughly 5% of all corporate income taxes collected in the country that year.
0:04:56 And finally, BP announced it is shifting back to fossil fuels and
0:04:59 scaling down investments in green energy.
0:05:03 The company plans to spend around $10 billion a year on oil and gas to win
0:05:07 back investors after its fourth quarter profit hit a four-year low.
0:05:12 Despite that move, BP shares closed down about one and a half percent.
0:05:17 Scott, we’ll start with Tesla and I’m bracing myself for your victory lap here.
0:05:20 You predicted on February 13th.
0:05:23 I can’t help it.
0:05:25 I’m a broken clock here.
0:05:26 Tesla’s imploding.
0:05:29 I think the stock is below $200 in the next six months.
0:05:32 It was trading at $356 a share then.
0:05:37 We’re not below $200, but we’re now at $286.
0:05:41 So it’s down 20% since your prediction.
0:05:41 Take it away.
0:05:43 I hate this motherfucker.
0:05:45 I really, I don’t know if you’ve sensed that.
0:05:46 Really? Yeah.
0:05:49 I have no emotional distance here.
0:05:50 I’m changing my prediction.
0:05:52 I think this thing goes below 150.
0:05:53 Oh, keep it.
0:05:54 Keep the original.
0:05:55 I can’t help it.
0:06:01 It’s at a P of 180 and its sales are off 75% in Germany.
0:06:03 And across Europe, they’re off dramatically.
0:06:06 I think the car line is really stale.
0:06:08 To be fair, the stock is still up 50%
0:06:10 over the last 12 months, right?
0:06:12 It had a huge run up.
0:06:15 And the market, you could say, you could also make this,
0:06:17 you could also steel man and be a weak steel man
0:06:20 and be more like an Ironman or a Heyman.
0:06:22 It’s clear his activities have really hurt him
0:06:24 in Europe and in California,
0:06:28 but probably the market was looking for an excuse
0:06:29 to take this stock down.
0:06:32 I think what will be the real interesting test here
0:06:35 in terms of the association or affiliation
0:06:39 of an individual’s brand and their company
0:06:43 is if Starlink starts to have contracts canceled.
0:06:44 What do you make of this ad?
0:06:47 Yeah, I mean, I think the question that we’ve been trying
0:06:51 to ask is like, what started this slide with Tesla stock?
0:06:54 I mean, it’s pretty dramatic what happened.
0:06:58 It’s down around 20% in five straight days
0:07:00 falling below a trillion dollars.
0:07:02 It’s now down 34% since its peak in December.
0:07:04 I think the thing that really triggered this
0:07:07 is this data that came out from Europe.
0:07:12 Teslas vehicle sales are down almost 50% across Europe.
0:07:15 Meanwhile, overall EV sales across Europe
0:07:17 are up almost 40%.
0:07:19 So clearly people just hate Teslas
0:07:22 and it’s not very surprising why.
0:07:25 I mean, you just look at the UK, for example,
0:07:28 where, you know, Elon is talking about how he wants
0:07:31 to put the British Prime Minister Kierstahmer in jail.
0:07:33 Like it’s not very surprising
0:07:34 that the British public is now saying,
0:07:36 hey, we’re down with electric vehicles,
0:07:38 but we’re not gonna buy Teslas anymore.
0:07:42 And so it’s finally being reflected in Tesla’s financials.
0:07:45 I think the thing that I’ve been thinking about a lot
0:07:48 when it comes to Elon and when it comes to Tesla,
0:07:53 I’ve been waiting for what I would call his Wellington moment
0:07:55 and I’ll explain what I mean by that.
0:07:57 As I’ve said to you before,
0:07:59 I think the similarities between Elon Musk
0:08:01 and Napoleon Bonaparte,
0:08:03 and you’re gonna call me a history nerd, but I don’t care.
0:08:04 Just a nerd.
0:08:07 I think the similarities are very striking
0:08:08 in that you have Napoleon,
0:08:12 who was this like miraculously successful guy
0:08:16 who took over all of Europe and tried to take over the world.
0:08:20 And at the same time was also pretty universally disliked.
0:08:21 But people never really did anything about it
0:08:24 because they thought, you know, this guy is so talented.
0:08:25 He’s so powerful.
0:08:28 He conquered the Russians and the Prussians and the Spanish.
0:08:30 He installed himself into office.
0:08:32 He crowned himself emperor.
0:08:35 Like, how could we ever bet against Napoleon?
0:08:37 You never bet against Napoleon.
0:08:39 And that’s basically why people went along with this guy
0:08:44 who was acting, honestly, very irrationally and kind of insane.
0:08:47 But it was only when he suffered this crushing defeat
0:08:50 at Waterloo against the Duke of Wellington
0:08:51 that people realized, actually,
0:08:54 maybe this guy isn’t untouchable.
0:08:56 Actually, maybe he isn’t a god.
0:09:00 And the whole world turned on him at the exact same time,
0:09:02 including the French, by the way,
0:09:05 and he was banished to this remote island
0:09:07 where he died sad and alone.
0:09:11 And I believe that that moment is coming for Elon.
0:09:15 I believe it’s going to take some big loss.
0:09:18 And suddenly all of this mystique and this intrigue
0:09:23 and all of our glorification of his leadership abilities
0:09:25 and his character and his genius,
0:09:28 it’s all just going to disintegrate in a second.
0:09:33 And at that moment, I think the citizens start to turn on him.
0:09:35 We’ve seen that happening already.
0:09:37 But more importantly,
0:09:39 I think the markets will turn on him too.
0:09:41 – I think that moment happened 48 hours ago.
0:09:43 I think it was Bill Burr.
0:09:44 He’s probably my favorite comedian.
0:09:46 I think the guy’s just a genius and he’s fearless.
0:09:47 And he’s been known for being
0:09:49 just incredibly politically incorrect.
0:09:52 And he’s a favorite of what I’ll call
0:09:54 sort of the intelligent manosphere.
0:09:56 And that is he just mocks the shit
0:09:59 out of Democrats and political correctness.
0:10:02 And basically every viewer of MSNBC
0:10:04 was grabbing their pearls every time they watched
0:10:06 a Bill Burr clip.
0:10:07 And he was just totally unafraid
0:10:09 to be totally politically incorrect.
0:10:11 And he went on a rant and we should play that.
0:10:12 We’ll find the clip now.
0:10:13 – I’ll tell you it was funny.
0:10:16 I made fun of the fucking Twitter guy
0:10:18 for fucking Seag Highling, not once but twice.
0:10:20 And I never look at my emails.
0:10:21 I was scrolling through my emails
0:10:24 and it said my Twitter account had been flagged
0:10:26 for InterPro, I don’t even tweet anymore.
0:10:29 It had been flagged for what?
0:10:30 What a fucking baby.
0:10:33 Just like Hitler, a fucking baby.
0:10:33 ‘Cause that’s another thing.
0:10:35 All of these people that are into fucking Hitler,
0:10:36 you know what I mean?
0:10:39 And like, look at this guy,
0:10:40 like he was some sort of fucking hero.
0:10:43 The guy was one of the biggest fucking cowards ever.
0:10:46 All the pain and all the suffering that that guy’s caused
0:10:49 and the war crimes the allies had to commit
0:10:53 firebombing fucking cities to get that motherfucker.
0:10:57 When it came time for him to pay the price
0:10:59 for all the suffering he caused,
0:11:02 millions and millions and millions of people.
0:11:05 Did he face the music?
0:11:09 Nope, he gave himself a nice, quick, painless fucking death.
0:11:13 That’s your fucking hero?
0:11:15 – I think the worm has turned against this guy.
0:11:17 I think that moment you were describing
0:11:19 happened 48 hours ago.
0:11:22 – I still think people think he’s invincible.
0:11:22 – There’s no such thing.
0:11:25 – Agreed, but this is what people believe
0:11:27 and this is what the markets believe.
0:11:28 And so this is what I mean.
0:11:30 I think you need a moment.
0:11:32 You need to see that the God fall from grace.
0:11:34 You realize he’s mortal.
0:11:37 You realize that actually he’s not all he was chalked up to be.
0:11:40 And suddenly that’s when the world collapses in on itself.
0:11:42 But we’ve been talking about Elon
0:11:44 for way longer than we should have.
0:11:45 So let’s just move on to our second headline here,
0:11:50 which is Berkshire Hathaway paying $27 billion in taxes
0:11:52 in the last year.
0:11:54 I think the thing that’s interesting
0:11:57 is what Warren Buffett said about this tax bill.
0:12:00 Specifically, he was talking in his shareholder letter
0:12:03 in his annual letter to Berkshire Hathaway shareholders.
0:12:08 He was explaining how proud he was of paying this tax bill
0:12:12 and contributing this revenue to the US government.
0:12:16 And I’ll just quote one part of this
0:12:18 because I’m supportive of what he said,
0:12:20 but I also take some issue with it.
0:12:24 So in the letter, he’s describing the beginnings
0:12:25 of Berkshire Hathaway
0:12:27 and how they were struggling at the beginning.
0:12:29 And then he says, quote, fast forward 60 years
0:12:31 and imagine the surprise at the treasury
0:12:32 when that same company,
0:12:35 still operating under the name of Berkshire Hathaway,
0:12:37 paid far more in corporate income tax
0:12:41 than the US government had ever received from any company,
0:12:43 even the American tech titans
0:12:46 that commanded market values in the trillions.
0:12:50 So he’s basically saying, look how far we’ve come.
0:12:53 Look what we’re contributing to the government.
0:12:57 But at the same time, he’s kind of taking a shot at big tech
0:12:59 and accusing them of not paying taxes,
0:13:04 which is true and fair and I agree with it.
0:13:06 But I do find it a little bit rich
0:13:08 coming from Warren Buffett,
0:13:10 who has done a very good job of avoiding taxes himself.
0:13:14 I mean, if you look at the history of Berkshire Hathaway,
0:13:17 they have a long list of tax avoidance strategies
0:13:20 and they’ve had no problem taking full advantage of them.
0:13:23 We could go through some of those examples,
0:13:25 but what I would summarize this as,
0:13:28 I respect the point,
0:13:31 but I don’t love this holier than thou attitude
0:13:32 from Warren Buffett,
0:13:36 who’s kind of presenting himself as like the Jesus of taxes,
0:13:39 which isn’t necessarily true,
0:13:42 but let’s hear what you think of this.
0:13:43 I assume you’re a supporter of this.
0:13:44 – Yeah, but you got to write.
0:13:47 Like, fine, they paid a lot of taxes.
0:13:49 If she wants to take a victory lap for it
0:13:50 and make a point, good for him.
0:13:51 And he has said for a long time,
0:13:53 there’s no reason I should pay a lower tax rate
0:13:55 than my assistant,
0:13:57 but his obligation to a Swiss shareholder
0:13:59 is no one’s going to disarm unilaterally.
0:14:01 I believe tax rates should go up,
0:14:02 but I engage in tax avoidance.
0:14:04 So I’m constantly thinking about strategies
0:14:06 to minimize my tax bill.
0:14:08 And there’s a ton of ways you can do it legally
0:14:10 when you’re rich.
0:14:12 And what we’ve seen as a tax code go from
0:14:15 something like 400 pages to 7,000,
0:14:17 and those incremental 6,600 pages
0:14:19 are there basically to fuck people of your generation
0:14:21 and transfer more wealth to my generation
0:14:22 and to corporations.
0:14:26 And cruise lines have weaponized various loopholes.
0:14:29 They pay less than 2% for old tax rates.
0:14:33 General Motors in 2023 paid a tax rate of 5%.
0:14:36 T-Mobile, which I would think was a very profitable company,
0:14:40 pays an effective tax rate of 0.4%.
0:14:41 Every company’s going to do the best they can
0:14:42 to pay as little as they can.
0:14:43 That’s their job.
0:14:44 We’re not doing our job.
0:14:46 And that is there have been so many loopholes
0:14:49 stuffed into the tax code.
0:14:50 And what the misdirect is,
0:14:51 people think it’s about tax rates.
0:14:54 It’s not, it’s about the tax code.
0:14:57 And I believe that as a percentage of GDP taxes
0:15:02 or corporations are paying the lowest taxes since like 1938.
0:15:04 And at some point you got to fund the government.
0:15:05 And there’s two things to do.
0:15:08 There’s either deficits, right?
0:15:10 Or you got to charge more
0:15:13 in different types of consumption taxes.
0:15:14 And I’ve said this for a long time.
0:15:16 There’s some mythology in the tax code.
0:15:18 The bottom half pays almost no federal income tax.
0:15:20 They pay a lot of consumption and sales tax,
0:15:22 but almost no federal income tax.
0:15:24 The people who get most screwed in our tax system
0:15:29 are actually most of the people who work at property media.
0:15:31 And that is, you guys make very good livings,
0:15:32 but it’s all current income.
0:15:35 And you live in a high tax domain, New York City.
0:15:36 So even as young as you are,
0:15:38 you make exceptionally good livings for people your age,
0:15:40 even though you may not feel that way.
0:15:44 You’re probably paying 30 to 40% tax rates at this point.
0:15:46 That’s a lot of money for a young person.
0:15:48 And, but once you make the jump to light speed
0:15:49 and get really rich,
0:15:51 you can leverage all these different loopholes,
0:15:55 whether it’s 1031 exchanges
0:15:56 where you can take real estate
0:15:59 and roll it into a new investment,
0:16:00 a new real estate investment
0:16:01 without incurring a capital gain,
0:16:04 triggering a capital gain.
0:16:06 Even thinking of yourself as a stock,
0:16:09 you produce, I have stocks that produce,
0:16:12 say a hundred grand a year in dividends or growth.
0:16:14 That gets to grow on the dividends,
0:16:16 but the growth, gross tax deferred.
0:16:18 Whereas if you’re an individual making $100,000,
0:16:21 you lose 20% of it every year at least.
0:16:24 So the tax code has basically said,
0:16:26 all right, the bottom 99,
0:16:28 we’re gonna basically fund the government
0:16:32 with the kind of 50 to 99th percentile.
0:16:34 And then once you get above the 99th,
0:16:36 your tax rates plummet.
0:16:37 And the reason why America puts up with it
0:16:39 is that we’re so optimistic
0:16:41 that people believe at some point
0:16:43 they’re gonna be in the 0.1%.
0:16:47 But corporations, I mean, we just have two choices here.
0:16:49 We either need to cut spending and raise taxes
0:16:52 or have massive deficits, which are,
0:16:54 and it’s important that we communicate this to people,
0:16:56 nothing but taxes on you and Claire
0:16:57 and the rest of the young people of this organization
0:17:00 just kind of laying in wait.
0:17:02 So I find the whole,
0:17:05 I think taxes are a really important conversation.
0:17:07 I would like to see the best solution
0:17:09 would be an AMT and alternative minimum tax
0:17:12 on corporations and the rich.
0:17:14 And that is if you make over say $10 million,
0:17:18 we want you to pay a 50% AMT.
0:17:20 Whatever loopholes you can come up with, great,
0:17:21 but you’re paying at least 50%, you know,
0:17:23 well, that’s a lot, Scott.
0:17:27 It’s not because every psychiatrist and psychologist
0:17:28 and Daniel Kahneman specifically
0:17:30 has shown that above a certain amount of money,
0:17:31 you lose no happiness.
0:17:35 Any more money doesn’t make you any happier,
0:17:37 so having a higher tax rate doesn’t make you any less happy.
0:17:40 And also these tax rates are lower than they were
0:17:43 in the 50s, 60s, 70s and even in the 80s
0:17:44 at those income levels.
0:17:48 So I think tax rates could actually come down
0:17:52 if you forced everyone to pay those tax rates.
0:17:55 And that is you could lower the top tax rates on people
0:17:57 if everyone paid them.
0:17:59 You could lower corporate tax rates
0:18:02 if everyone paid that rate.
0:18:04 – I also think that there is something to be learned
0:18:08 from Warren Buffett just being happy to pay his taxes.
0:18:10 Like that’s just on a personal emotional level.
0:18:11 I think if we can, you know,
0:18:13 we clearly need to raise more tax revenue.
0:18:18 If there is any way for Americans or people anywhere
0:18:22 really to feel a little bit less resentful
0:18:24 when they make their tax payments
0:18:28 and to feel that feeling of actually having pride
0:18:29 and it being a bragging point,
0:18:32 how much you contributed to the US government,
0:18:33 which it seems like that’s, you know,
0:18:35 everyone who pays their taxes is like, fuck this,
0:18:37 I don’t want to pay my taxes.
0:18:39 But I do like that Warren Buffett
0:18:41 is kind of changing the sentiment there.
0:18:43 And I will also shout out Andrew Yang,
0:18:45 who one of his great policy proposals
0:18:46 when he was running for president
0:18:50 was that we should basically have the government send out
0:18:55 videos, including local governments to taxpayers,
0:18:57 telling them, here’s everything we did
0:19:00 with your money this week or this month or this year.
0:19:04 And I think if you could sort of just change the mentality
0:19:06 when it comes to paying taxes,
0:19:08 I mean, it’s a little bit of a soft point,
0:19:11 but I do appreciate that Warren Buffett
0:19:14 is leading that movement of, okay,
0:19:17 paying a lot in taxes is not necessarily a bad thing.
0:19:20 You’re doing a service to your country.
0:19:23 I guess you have to start off believing in your country
0:19:24 and liking your country to begin with,
0:19:27 which is becoming rarer and rarer in America.
0:19:30 Now, let’s talk about BP.
0:19:33 They’re deciding to shift away from renewables,
0:19:35 investing more in oil and gas.
0:19:37 I guess the first question I had reading this headline
0:19:40 is how much did Elliott management,
0:19:41 the activist investment firm,
0:19:43 how much did Elliott have to do with this?
0:19:47 Because two weeks ago it was leaked
0:19:51 that they had this stake in BP, roughly 5%.
0:19:54 They wanted to clearly address BP’s underperformance.
0:19:56 It’s down 8% in the past year.
0:19:58 Meanwhile, Shell is up 7%
0:20:00 and all the other energy companies are doing a lot better.
0:20:02 And then suddenly two weeks later,
0:20:04 we see this turnaround in strategy.
0:20:07 So I guess my first question for you, Scott,
0:20:10 to what extent do you think this was Elliott’s doing?
0:20:11 – Oh, Elliott, they’re smart people.
0:20:14 And Jessica, when he runs our activist group,
0:20:15 is a really smart guy.
0:20:16 And marketing is important,
0:20:18 but be clear, this is all marketing.
0:20:20 I’m not sure, I think BP was actually,
0:20:23 so I ran a brand strategy firm called Profit.
0:20:25 And I think BP was a client.
0:20:29 And the running joke around the office was beyond petroleum.
0:20:32 And they’d like, the ad team would hire an Asian dude,
0:20:34 put him in a jacket and run a commercial talking
0:20:37 about how algae is gonna fuel the future automobile.
0:20:40 – Can 100,000 people in 100 countries come together
0:20:43 to build a new brand of progress for the world?
0:20:45 We think so.
0:20:48 And now BP, Amaco, Arco and Castrol have come together
0:20:51 to try beyond petroleum.
0:20:53 – They never spent a lot of money.
0:20:56 I think right now, what is the research you guys did
0:21:00 that basically BP is allocating somewhere
0:21:03 between 3% and 5% of their total cap extra renewables.
0:21:05 That’s just not a lot.
0:21:08 They were never not in oil and gas.
0:21:11 And this is basically saying, okay, get rid of all of it,
0:21:14 stop pretending, stop running the ads beyond petroleum.
0:21:16 Just say petroleum, it’s here.
0:21:17 – Sorry, you think that,
0:21:20 you basically think that they believe
0:21:22 that the world wanted them to be a renewable company.
0:21:24 So they said, oh, we’re a renewable company.
0:21:26 And now the world wants them to be an oil and gas company.
0:21:28 So they’re saying we’re an oil and gas company.
0:21:29 – Yeah, there’s no substance here.
0:21:33 This is them pretending for two decades,
0:21:37 deciding that the big sunflower beyond petroleum
0:21:38 would make them see warm and cuddly
0:21:41 as they were belching more carbon into the air
0:21:44 than anyone but maybe Exxon and Chevron.
0:21:46 Because there is nothing,
0:21:49 there is nothing like the arbitrage you get
0:21:52 from fossil fuels in terms of the ability to do work,
0:21:56 move earth, create different substances
0:21:59 based on this incredibly cheap supply
0:22:03 where you get a barrel, an absolute barrel of this shit
0:22:05 that can be made into almost anything
0:22:07 or providing energy to make almost anything
0:22:09 and the barrel costs 70 bucks.
0:22:11 I mean, it’s just so cheap.
0:22:16 And these guys, these companies are just cash juggernauts.
0:22:19 And basically Elliot said, stop the bullshit,
0:22:22 stop the virtue signaling, stop the posturing.
0:22:25 You’re a petroleum company, you always have been.
0:22:27 – They are putting $10 billion a year
0:22:29 additionally into oil and gas.
0:22:33 So I think, I mean, I think I’m sort of half with you
0:22:35 and that this is probably what they thought
0:22:38 the market wanted because the way that the pendulum
0:22:41 is sort of swinging back away from ESG.
0:22:43 But I would also put forward the possibility
0:22:47 that a lot of this has to do with AI
0:22:48 and just the fact that they couldn’t really predict
0:22:51 what was gonna happen in terms of how AI
0:22:54 was gonna explode over the next few years.
0:22:55 And you’ve got billions of dollars
0:22:57 being plowed into these data centers,
0:23:00 which are already one of the biggest strains
0:23:02 on power in our economy.
0:23:04 And it’s expected to double in just a couple of years,
0:23:07 quintuple in maybe the next 10.
0:23:08 So I do think at the same time,
0:23:10 I’m sure there’s probably a marketing element to it.
0:23:11 I think at the same time,
0:23:15 these energy companies are realizing like shit,
0:23:17 we’ve been investing in these renewables,
0:23:21 which are probably pretty exciting over the long term,
0:23:23 but the short-term demands of AI
0:23:25 are way higher than we thought.
0:23:27 And the reality is these renewables
0:23:29 that we’ve been investing in, they won’t cut it.
0:23:31 And if we wanna meet demand,
0:23:33 we do need more oil and we do need more gas,
0:23:36 especially gas, liquid natural gas
0:23:38 is like ideal for data centers.
0:23:41 So I think I’m like sort of half with you there,
0:23:43 but I do think there is some substance here
0:23:46 in the fact that power demand is just going up.
0:23:48 And we’re not gonna power these data centers
0:23:50 with windmills and solar panels.
0:23:52 We’re gonna do it with oil and gas.
0:23:53 And so if you’re not investing in that,
0:23:55 or at least maybe to your point,
0:23:58 showing Wall Street that you’re trying to invest in that
0:23:59 and that you’re being realistic
0:24:02 about the demands of AI in the next few years,
0:24:03 then you’re gonna get punished.
0:24:06 And that’s why we’ve seen BP down
0:24:10 or at least kind of flat over the past year or so.
0:24:12 It’s up 37% in the past five years,
0:24:14 Chevron’s up 109%.
0:24:16 Exxon is up 183%.
0:24:19 So they have been getting crushed.
0:24:24 And I don’t like to be the big energy guy,
0:24:25 but I do support this move.
0:24:29 – We saw a lot of those energy stocks crash with deep seek
0:24:30 when all of a sudden people thought,
0:24:32 oh, we might not need as much energy.
0:24:34 And what you’re saying is that was a bit of a headache.
0:24:37 We’re still gonna need a massive amount of energy.
0:24:41 And I met with a guy who’s an energy guy
0:24:43 and he said, you got nuclear wrong.
0:24:46 He said, and Mia kind of confirmed this in her notes
0:24:51 that the lag to bring energy capacity nuclear online
0:24:54 is five, 10 years out at a minimum.
0:24:58 And that the real play is liquid natural gas, LNG.
0:25:00 And that you wanna be looking at that space.
0:25:03 And it’ll be very interesting to see the other,
0:25:05 there’s the side note that really fascinated me.
0:25:06 I don’t know if you’ve saw,
0:25:10 the number one producer of wind power now is Texas.
0:25:12 And we should do a deeper dive at some point
0:25:16 on the economics of wind power
0:25:18 because it’s politically, quote unquote, incorrect
0:25:21 or politically sober, whatever the term you wanna use this,
0:25:25 Texas is, the economics of wind have made it such that
0:25:28 it is now in many ways a better bet
0:25:30 than these dirty fossil fuels.
0:25:32 – We’ll be right back after the break
0:25:33 with a look at Nvidia.
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0:29:13 – We’re back with ProfG Markets.
0:29:15 NVIDIA reported fourth quarter earnings
0:29:18 that beat expectations with revenue up 78%
0:29:19 from a year earlier.
0:29:20 The company also forecasted
0:29:23 higher than expected first quarter revenue
0:29:26 with the CFO confident in a quote significant ramp
0:29:28 in sales of Blackwell,
0:29:30 which is its next generation AI chip.
0:29:33 However, NVIDIA also warned that profit margins
0:29:34 would be tighter than expected
0:29:37 as it accelerates the rollout of the Blackwell chip.
0:29:40 After fluctuating between gains and losses,
0:29:44 the stock actually fell slightly in extended trading.
0:29:47 Scott, just your headline initial reactions
0:29:48 to NVIDIA’s fourth quarter earnings
0:29:51 and perhaps the market’s reaction to those earnings.
0:29:53 – You had it, you summarized it perfectly, Ed.
0:29:56 And that is the market is so used to
0:29:59 these companies blowing away expectations
0:30:00 that when they don’t beat expectations,
0:30:03 they don’t meet expectations.
0:30:07 And NVIDIA beat expectations on the top and bottom line.
0:30:08 And I think the stock’s off today.
0:30:10 I mean, it’s not off hugely,
0:30:12 but you summarized it perfect.
0:30:15 Expectations have become such that you’re expected
0:30:18 to massively blow away expectations,
0:30:21 but I didn’t take a ton away from this.
0:30:22 Do you have any thoughts?
0:30:26 – I think what the market wants from NVIDIA now
0:30:30 is they need a home run to be fine.
0:30:33 They need to consistently hit a home run.
0:30:36 And only if they knock the ball literally out of the park
0:30:38 will they get a bump in the stock.
0:30:40 But we can just look at the numbers here.
0:30:44 So sales up 80% to 39.3 billion,
0:30:48 net income up 80% to 22.1 billion,
0:30:49 beat on revenue by 3%,
0:30:52 beat on guidance by 5%.
0:30:54 I think the most important stat here
0:30:56 is their data center revenue beat.
0:31:00 They beat data center revenue expectations by 6.3%.
0:31:01 And that’s, as we know,
0:31:03 the most important thing for Wall Street right now.
0:31:08 I think they did $115 billion in data center revenue in 2024.
0:31:10 It’s just unbelievable.
0:31:12 So it was a great quarter.
0:31:15 But as you say, great isn’t good enough.
0:31:17 And so they kind of flatlined.
0:31:22 But in my book, that’s kind of a win for NVIDIA.
0:31:24 I think a lot of people are expecting at this point
0:31:28 that NVIDIA, they’re looking for anything
0:31:29 to bring the stock down.
0:31:32 And so the fact that they were able to maintain themselves
0:31:33 is kind of impressive.
0:31:36 We should probably talk about Deepseek
0:31:38 and what Jensen Huang said about Deepseek.
0:31:41 He mentioned it pretty much first thing on the call.
0:31:43 He said, I’ll just quote what he said.
0:31:47 He said, “Models like OpenAI, Grock 3 and Deepseek R1,
0:31:49 are reasoning models that apply inference time-scaling
0:31:53 and reasoning models can consume 100 times more compute.”
0:31:56 So he kind of sounded bullish on Deepseek in a way.
0:31:59 He then went on to say that Deepseek is quote,
0:32:02 “An excellent innovation, but even more importantly,
0:32:05 it has open sourced a world-class reasoning model.
0:32:09 Nearly every AI developer is applying R1 or techniques
0:32:12 like R1 to scale their models performance.”
0:32:16 So if I were to translate what he’s saying about Deepseek,
0:32:20 it’s that Deepseek can only be good for Nvidia.
0:32:23 He says, you know, it can consume more computing power.
0:32:26 And I’m not totally sure about that.
0:32:29 And I don’t really believe him given what we saw
0:32:30 in the research paper where Deepseek said,
0:32:32 “No, we consume less compute.”
0:32:36 But he also said that it’s democratizing AI,
0:32:39 which will ultimately lead to even more demand
0:32:40 for computing power.
0:32:43 And on that point, I do agree with him.
0:32:46 I think that, you know, if Deepseek can make this stuff
0:32:50 more accessible, then we’re gonna see more people
0:32:53 accessing it and more people using this stuff,
0:32:56 which is only gonna lead to more demand for compute,
0:32:58 which can only benefit Nvidia.
0:33:00 This is, we’ve talked about this before.
0:33:02 I think this is Jevyn’s paradox.
0:33:03 A lot of tech bros talk about this.
0:33:06 This paradox that the cheaper and more efficient
0:33:10 a product gets, the more it is consumed in the real economy.
0:33:12 And so Jensen’s comments at the start of the call were,
0:33:14 “This is what’s gonna happen.
0:33:15 It’s more accessible.
0:33:17 It can only benefit us.”
0:33:18 I’m sort of with him.
0:33:20 I think the 100 times more compute power comment
0:33:22 was probably a little bit misleading.
0:33:25 But, you know, I look at this and I think,
0:33:28 okay, Nvidia’s crushing it, keep going.
0:33:30 – It’s great IR, it’s great investor relations
0:33:33 to turn a bug into a feature, right?
0:33:36 That A, confronting it head on,
0:33:38 let’s talk about Deepseek.
0:33:41 And this is why Deepseek is good for us.
0:33:42 – It’s a very well-run company.
0:33:44 He’s an outstanding CEO.
0:33:47 I think Josh Brown said that it’s up a hundred acts.
0:33:49 And Josh, I guess Josh has owned it for 10 years.
0:33:52 – Yeah, I couldn’t believe when he said that.
0:33:53 By the way, we were wondering,
0:33:54 how much do you think he put in?
0:33:57 – I have no idea, but I know I met Josh
0:33:59 through his partner, Barry Ritholtz,
0:34:00 who’s also a very smart guy.
0:34:03 And they’re trying to be sort of a hybrid
0:34:07 between a hedge fund and their business model and Vanguard.
0:34:09 And that is every time their AUM goes up,
0:34:11 they charge us money, but they’re very,
0:34:13 they’re not stock pickers.
0:34:14 Well, I guess they’re stock pickers to a certain extent,
0:34:15 but they’re very much–
0:34:16 – They’re sober about it.
0:34:18 – Yeah, they’re one of the few funds
0:34:20 I’ve ever thought investing in an even bank fees
0:34:23 because they’re just very sober kind of level-headed guys
0:34:26 and they give it kind of, give it to you straight.
0:34:27 And oh yeah, those guys are like fun to go out
0:34:29 and eat beef and drink bourbon with.
0:34:32 They’re such like long island guys.
0:34:34 Like I don’t even like basketball.
0:34:35 – Which is the most important thing
0:34:37 in the wealth management business.
0:34:37 You need to be–
0:34:40 – 100%, but if I was gonna go to a next game with anybody
0:34:43 and then go have a big steak, it’d be those guys.
0:34:44 – 100%.
0:34:46 – Look, it’s an incredible company.
0:34:48 I’m pissed off, I never owned it.
0:34:50 I have a difficult time seeing where it goes from here
0:34:55 based on how just expensive it has become, but–
0:34:55 – It was interesting.
0:35:00 I mean, I was watching CNBC the night before the earnings
0:35:05 and CNBC had probably every single analyst on their roster
0:35:09 come on to talk about this topic
0:35:13 and specifically to make a big, bold prediction about it.
0:35:15 And it was really interesting
0:35:17 seeing all of these analysts getting so fired up.
0:35:19 – Investors are awaiting the most anticipated report
0:35:22 of the whole earnings season just a couple hours from now.
0:35:24 – The bottom line is if they can beat $38 billion
0:35:26 in sales for the quarter, it’s gonna be a great quarter.
0:35:27 – What they’re gonna report,
0:35:29 this quarter is gonna be fantastic.
0:35:31 – You know, this does remind me of the bubble,
0:35:32 but it’s on steroids.
0:35:35 I mean, there is a data point, a podcast, a rumor
0:35:36 every five minutes.
0:35:39 By the way, they had Aswath demotorin on
0:35:42 and his prediction was Nvidia’s going to beat,
0:35:44 but the stock’s gonna come down a little bit.
0:35:48 Aswath absolutely nailed it as he often does.
0:35:51 But I guess the big takeaway for me from watching that
0:35:53 and from seeing all of the memes online
0:35:55 on Twitter, on Instagram, on threads,
0:36:00 this is basically like the Super Bowl for nerds now,
0:36:01 for business nerds.
0:36:02 – That’s a new sport, 100%.
0:36:05 – And there was this great data from the team.
0:36:08 Google search volume four Nvidia beat out
0:36:10 at 4 p.m. the day of the earnings.
0:36:12 It beat out searches for the New York Times,
0:36:17 for Wikipedia, for Instagram, and for chat GBT.
0:36:20 So this really is like, yeah, it’s the business Super Bowl.
0:36:23 It’s one of those moments where the entire business community
0:36:25 is coming together and they’re making predictions
0:36:27 and it’s a ton of fun.
0:36:29 It’s a ton of fun for CNBC too.
0:36:32 And as someone who’s trying to make business news
0:36:34 more interesting, I kind of love it.
0:36:36 – You know what would be a total gangster move
0:36:39 is if Elliot convinced Nvidia to become a petroleum company.
0:36:42 (laughing)
0:36:43 That’d be a test.
0:36:44 – I think you should become an activist
0:36:46 and maybe you can pitch that next time.
0:36:47 – There you go.
0:36:50 – We’ll be right back after the break
0:36:52 with a look at the new American Gold Card.
0:36:55 If you’re enjoying the show so far, hit follow
0:36:57 and leave us a review on Proficy Markets.
0:36:59 (upbeat music)
0:37:10 – We’re taking Vox Media Podcast on the road
0:37:11 and heading back to Austin
0:37:13 for the South by Southwest Festival,
0:37:14 March 8th through the 10th.
0:37:19 What a thrill, chicken fajitas, queso, strawberry margarita,
0:37:20 extra shot of tequila.
0:37:22 There you’ll be able to see special live episodes
0:37:25 of hit shows, including our show Pivot.
0:37:27 Where should we begin with Esther Perrell?
0:37:29 A touch more with Sue Bird and Megan Rapinoe.
0:37:31 Not just football with Cam Hayward
0:37:35 and more presented by Smartsheet.
0:37:38 The Vox Media Podcast stage at South by Southwest
0:37:41 is open to all South by Southwest badge holders.
0:37:43 We hope to see you at the Austin Convention Center soon.
0:37:44 I’m not joking.
0:37:46 I love South by Southwest.
0:37:47 The people are a ton of fun.
0:37:49 It’s a great time.
0:37:51 If you do come up and say hi,
0:37:55 visit voxmedia.com/sxsw to learn more.
0:37:59 That’s voxmedia.com/sxsw.
0:38:05 We’re taking Vox Media Podcast on the road
0:38:06 and heading back to Austin
0:38:10 for the South by Southwest Festival, March 8th through the 10th.
0:38:11 What a thrill.
0:38:14 We’ll be doing special live episodes of hit shows,
0:38:15 including Pivot.
0:38:16 That’s right.
0:38:18 That dog’s going to the great state of Texas.
0:38:21 Where should we begin with Esther Perrell?
0:38:24 A touch more with Sue Bird and Megan Rapinoe.
0:38:27 Not just football with Cam Hayward and more,
0:38:29 presented by Smartsheet.
0:38:32 The Vox Media Podcast stage at South by Southwest
0:38:35 is open to all South by Southwest badge holders.
0:38:37 We hope to see you at the Austin Convention Center soon.
0:38:42 Visit voxmedia.com/sxsw to learn more.
0:38:46 That’s voxmedia.com/sxsw.
0:38:52 This week on ProfG Markets,
0:38:53 we speak with Mike Moffitt,
0:38:55 Founding Director of the University of Ottawa’s
0:38:57 Missing Middle Initiative
0:39:00 and a former economic advisor to Justin Trudeau.
0:39:02 We dive into the state of Canadian politics
0:39:04 and we get his take on the biggest challenges
0:39:06 facing Canada’s economy.
0:39:10 Canada’s economy is like three oligopolies in a trench coat.
0:39:12 We have a lot of inequality that way.
0:39:16 We have high levels of market concentration
0:39:19 because we have this tension in Canada
0:39:21 where we want things to be Canadian.
0:39:23 We want Canadian ownership.
0:39:25 But when you do that, you create a moat.
0:39:28 And whenever you create barriers to entry,
0:39:31 you’re going to naturally create oligopolies.
0:39:33 You can find that conversation
0:39:36 exclusively on the ProfG Markets podcast.
0:39:45 We’re back with ProfG Markets.
0:39:48 Trump is launching a new gold card program,
0:39:50 offering residency and a path to citizenship
0:39:51 for wealthy investors.
0:39:54 But it comes with a steep price.
0:39:56 Participants will need to pay $5 million
0:39:58 directly to the US government
0:40:01 with the funds going toward paying down the federal deficit.
0:40:04 The program set to launch in just two weeks
0:40:07 will replace the existing EB-5 visa program
0:40:09 which grants visas to foreign investors
0:40:11 who finance US projects.
0:40:13 However, immigration experts argue
0:40:16 that Congress must approve this change first.
0:40:19 Scott, I’d like to just quickly start off
0:40:22 by clearing something up on this EB-5 thing.
0:40:24 The Trump administration is saying
0:40:27 that this is no different from the EB-5 program,
0:40:30 which was set up in around 1990, I believe.
0:40:32 And this is a program where you pay a million dollars
0:40:33 to get a green card.
0:40:35 They’re saying, well, this is the same.
0:40:38 It’s just five million, not quite.
0:40:40 The EB-5 visa is actually quite different
0:40:42 because it’s a conditional visa
0:40:45 that is dependent on your ability to prove
0:40:48 after two years that you have created
0:40:51 an invested in a legitimate American business
0:40:53 and you have to prove that you have created
0:40:57 at least 10 full-time jobs for Americans.
0:40:58 So it’s different in the fact
0:41:01 that it requires actual real investment,
0:41:04 not just your money, but your time
0:41:06 and your effort and real commitment.
0:41:08 And I think to me, that is the crucial difference here.
0:41:11 This gold card is very simply pay-to-play.
0:41:15 You hand over the cash, you get the visa, one and done.
0:41:17 And I think when it comes to citizenship,
0:41:20 that is an important thing to recognize
0:41:23 is you’re actually investing your time
0:41:24 and your effort and your commitment
0:41:25 versus just your money.
0:41:27 – Well, this isn’t anything new.
0:41:29 Europe has a bunch of these programs.
0:41:32 They get, I think they garner
0:41:34 or different countries in Europe garner
0:41:36 about three billion in euros each year
0:41:38 from selling different visas.
0:41:42 I’m on a tech talent visa here in the UK
0:41:44 where I convinced them that I would bring unique skills
0:41:46 and they gave me a five-year visa.
0:41:48 But there was a similar program,
0:41:50 I think in the first Trump administration
0:41:52 where if you purchased a certain amount of real estate,
0:41:53 maybe it was for people out of China,
0:41:55 and the Canada has these programs.
0:41:56 I mean, this isn’t anything new.
0:42:00 What’s different about this is the price point.
0:42:03 And at $5 million, that’s just exceptional.
0:42:06 And someone did some analysis and said that
0:42:10 if you’re gonna pay $5 million for a visa,
0:42:14 it means you’re worth at least $25 million.
0:42:16 They’re just not that many people
0:42:17 that could afford this thing.
0:42:22 So this bullshit that we might raise $5 to $50 trillion.
0:42:24 I don’t have a problem with it.
0:42:27 The only thing is at this price point,
0:42:30 if you can’t figure out a way to get into America
0:42:33 or another Western country for a lot less than this,
0:42:37 it means you’re on the run from the tax authorities
0:42:39 or you’re pretty shady.
0:42:41 I mean, there’s some analogies here.
0:42:44 So one of my, when people asked me,
0:42:46 by the way, I spoke at the Royal Academy of Arts last night.
0:42:47 Ed, I don’t know if you heard
0:42:48 if you heard about it in the press.
0:42:52 – I did hear, a friend of mine said he met you, this guy.
0:42:55 – Oh, the former Golden guy came up to me and he was like,
0:42:57 I know Ed Elson, I’m like, well, I’m good for you.
0:43:00 You’re a nice man.
0:43:01 – Very cool that Royal Academy is very cool.
0:43:03 – Yeah, it was like a London highlight for me.
0:43:06 Anyway, it’s been, people always asking Q and A,
0:43:10 how would you distinguish the US from America?
0:43:14 And I say, look, my sense is unfortunately in the UK,
0:43:16 most of the people I know, including the people in this room
0:43:18 was room of very successful people.
0:43:22 Their servicing wealth built or made somewhere else.
0:43:26 And effectively some form of this was a huge,
0:43:29 a hugely successful program for Britain.
0:43:30 And that is, I think it was in the 90s,
0:43:33 Tony Blair or the odds put in place
0:43:35 really strict private property laws.
0:43:36 And that, as he said,
0:43:38 I don’t care if you’re an African warlord
0:43:40 or a Russian oligarch,
0:43:41 if you bring $100 million in the UK
0:43:45 and you buy a $30 million house in Mayfair,
0:43:48 they can’t come for it.
0:43:50 I mean, they meaning any other government
0:43:52 can’t come and take your shit away.
0:43:53 Once you have private property here in the UK
0:43:57 or you have money in our banks, no one can come for it.
0:43:59 And people would argue it attracted
0:44:01 some unsavory characters.
0:44:02 At the same time, the majority of the capital
0:44:04 and the majority of people attracted
0:44:06 were just very successful people.
0:44:08 And over the last 30 or 40 years,
0:44:09 and I know this firsthand,
0:44:11 having come to the UK once or twice a year
0:44:13 for the last 40 years,
0:44:15 London just got a dramatic facelift
0:44:18 because it attracted so much capital.
0:44:21 The US attracts people who want to make money.
0:44:24 The UK and a lot of these places attract people
0:44:27 who want to spend their money or shelter it.
0:44:31 And I wonder what kind of person are we gonna attract
0:44:35 if they have to spend $5 million to get into the US?
0:44:38 One, it’s gonna be someone very rich
0:44:42 who quite frankly is a little bit in a hurry.
0:44:45 And why are they, okay, they’re rich
0:44:47 and they’re in a hurry
0:44:50 and willing to give $5 million to get into the US.
0:44:53 That says to me like, okay,
0:44:58 the local tax authorities or the local law enforcement
0:45:00 is circling, right?
0:45:02 And they’re closing in on me
0:45:05 and I need to get out and get to America.
0:45:08 And so it’ll be really interesting.
0:45:10 First off, this just isn’t gonna raise that much money
0:45:12 ’cause I just don’t think there’s that many people.
0:45:15 The total adjustable market here is not that big.
0:45:17 The most interesting thing about this
0:45:19 will be some great investigative journalist
0:45:21 will get a source on the inside
0:45:24 and he or she will get the names of the 100 people
0:45:26 that do this, the first 100.
0:45:28 And it’s gonna be really interesting
0:45:30 to profile those people.
0:45:32 And in one way or another,
0:45:35 what this is is people on the run would be my guess.
0:45:40 People who wanna get out of the reach of tax authorities
0:45:43 or law enforcement in their host nation
0:45:47 because there are cheaper ways to get to America
0:45:49 than a $5 million.
0:45:53 This is sort of like giving the Trump administration
0:45:55 or in the Clinton and Clinton did this too,
0:45:58 a huge donation hoping for a pardon.
0:46:01 To me, this is like effectively a $5 million.
0:46:04 You’re buying a pardon, if you will, from another nation.
0:46:08 ‘Cause I wonder if, especially with the Trump administration,
0:46:09 if part of the wink-wink around this
0:46:13 is you can’t be extradited by another country.
0:46:16 – I just wanna emphasize the numbers here.
0:46:18 I mean, you mentioned how the total adjustable market
0:46:19 is not that big.
0:46:22 I just wanna get concrete here.
0:46:25 So Trump said, he had this press conference
0:46:27 with the cabinet.
0:46:30 He said, “If a million people buy the Golden Visa,
0:46:33 “that’s $5 trillion to pay down our debts.”
0:46:35 Then he said, “If 10 million people buy, quote,
0:46:38 “which is possible, that’s $50 trillion.”
0:46:40 Let’s just be very clear here.
0:46:42 Credit Suisse did this analysis
0:46:45 of ultra-high net worth individuals across the world.
0:46:47 So that’s people worth $50 million or more.
0:46:52 There are only 264,000 ultra-wealthy people in the world.
0:46:56 And by the way, 150,000 of those people are American.
0:47:00 So that only leaves you with 114,000 people left over
0:47:02 and only those people would even consider
0:47:04 getting this Golden Visa.
0:47:06 I think at most this generates maybe a couple hundred
0:47:09 billion dollars, more likely, I think,
0:47:11 would be just a few billion dollars.
0:47:15 So I just wanna be clear about the numbers here.
0:47:19 As you said, your instinct was it doesn’t make sense.
0:47:22 I’m looking at the numbers, it does not make sense.
0:47:25 Now the price we pay for that tiny little bit
0:47:30 of additional revenue to me is very high.
0:47:34 And I hate this and I’m surprised you don’t hate it
0:47:37 as much as I do because what this is basically saying
0:47:39 is that citizenship in America is now for sale.
0:47:42 – Well, it has been for a while, just to be clear.
0:47:43 If you have money, you’ve been able to get into the US
0:47:44 for a while.
0:47:47 – Not with this level of swiftness.
0:47:48 I mean, I don’t like this.
0:47:51 And I look at you, I think London is the great comparison.
0:47:53 I look at what’s happened to London.
0:47:56 When you go to Knightsbridge, yeah, it’s wealthy,
0:47:57 but it’s also a ghost town
0:48:00 because you’ve got hundreds of these ultra-luxury apartments.
0:48:04 With no one in them because it’s just a vehicle
0:48:05 for these Russian billionaires
0:48:07 who want to park their money somewhere safe.
0:48:10 Usually that money was made in very ugly ways.
0:48:14 And so they buy these giant apartments at One Hyde Park.
0:48:16 And so America has decided, oh yeah, we like that.
0:48:17 Let’s do that.
0:48:20 But I need to get your official,
0:48:23 your official where you land on this gold visa thing.
0:48:26 What I’m hearing from you is this is stupid,
0:48:29 but it’s not that problematic
0:48:31 because America has always been for sale.
0:48:33 – Every Western nation at one point or another
0:48:34 has been selling visas.
0:48:37 Has been basically, we live in a capitalist economy.
0:48:38 If you have money, you can figure out a way
0:48:42 to become a citizen of almost any nation with enough money.
0:48:43 And a lot of people would argue
0:48:47 the Trump administration is doing what the government’s
0:48:48 always done and Democrats have always done.
0:48:51 They’re just more transparent and more brazen about it.
0:48:53 I’ve engaged in this arbitrage.
0:48:56 And that is Claude de Jocas,
0:48:58 arguably one of the two or three most talented people
0:48:59 I’ve ever worked with.
0:49:02 Canadian, went to Yale, a gymnast,
0:49:07 just so impressive, great presence, hardworking,
0:49:09 working at L2, brings me, asks,
0:49:09 “What can I speak to you?”
0:49:10 Brings me the comments from,
0:49:13 “I’m really sorry, but I just got a message or a letter
0:49:16 from the INS saying I have to return to Canada.”
0:49:18 And I’m like, “Fuck that.”
0:49:19 I’m like, “Don’t worry about it.”
0:49:22 I’m like, “I can figure this out, I’ve got money.”
0:49:25 And you know, stay put, don’t worry about it.
0:49:26 And we’ll figure this out.
0:49:28 I lawyer it up with immigration attorneys
0:49:31 and Claude has never left the U.S.
0:49:32 – Oh, really?
0:49:34 ‘Cause I have a lot of talented friends
0:49:36 who are having issues with this.
0:49:37 I have a Canadian friend.
0:49:40 – It’s gotten much worse the last couple of years.
0:49:41 The last two or three years,
0:49:43 basically since the first Trump administration,
0:49:45 and this is just shooting ourselves in the foot,
0:49:48 that we’re heavy-handed with the wrong people.
0:49:50 We need to have borders.
0:49:54 We need to be, I’m all for deported criminals.
0:49:57 I’m all for, the whole immigration debate,
0:50:00 and we’re going way past here, but going to the low end,
0:50:03 if you wanted to solve this illegal immigration problem,
0:50:04 all you would do is find employers.
0:50:06 But no one wants to do that.
0:50:09 But at the high end, this is just,
0:50:11 it’s again another distraction.
0:50:12 It’s not gonna raise that much money.
0:50:15 The most interesting thing is that casted characters,
0:50:19 it’s gonna draw, who actually are willing to pay $5 million
0:50:21 so they can camp out.
0:50:22 It almost feels like
0:50:24 the most expensive witness protection program in history.
0:50:26 (laughing)
0:50:27 – That’s good.
0:50:30 All right, let’s take a look at the week ahead.
0:50:32 We’ll see the unemployment rate for February,
0:50:36 as well as earnings from Costco, Broadcom, and CrowdStrike.
0:50:38 Scott, do you have any predictions for us?
0:50:40 – I was reading that, essentially,
0:50:43 if you look at the history of different sectors
0:50:45 or categories of stocks,
0:50:48 and 100 being the most expensive they’ve ever been,
0:50:50 and zero being, or one being the least expensive
0:50:51 they’ve ever been,
0:50:54 US growth stocks are at 98 right now,
0:50:57 meaning that only 2% of the time in history
0:50:59 have they been trading at higher multiples on earnings.
0:51:03 At the same time, European value stocks
0:51:08 are trading at 2%, meaning 98% of the time
0:51:09 they have traded at higher multiples
0:51:13 throughout economic history, or modern economic history.
0:51:15 And so this isn’t a prediction, but this is what I’m doing.
0:51:20 I am starting to sell down some of my US tech stocks,
0:51:22 Apple, Amazon, and some others,
0:51:27 and rotating into these very boring European value ETFs.
0:51:29 – Good luck.
0:51:31 – But that’s what I love about this strategy,
0:51:34 ’cause about the time everybody throws in the towel,
0:51:35 I remember, probably the best investment,
0:51:39 I would say, in terms of a lack of volatility,
0:51:44 is in 2010, I started buying homes,
0:51:45 actually my partner, I can’t take credit,
0:51:48 buying homes out of foreclosure in Florida.
0:51:53 And nobody wanted Florida real estate.
0:51:56 And it didn’t seem like it was ever gonna get fixed.
0:51:58 That’s when you invest.
0:52:01 And I feel like just your reaction,
0:52:05 that means it’s time to invest in European value companies.
0:52:06 And there’s still some great companies,
0:52:11 Nestle, L’Oreal, British Petroleum, Shell, Mercedes.
0:52:16 Anyway, so I think this rotation is about to happen,
0:52:20 or it might be three months, it might be three years.
0:52:23 I think over, if you have a 10 year time horizon,
0:52:26 I think you trim out of US growth
0:52:28 and you trim into Florida real estate,
0:52:30 which right now is European value.
0:52:35 – This episode was produced by Claire Miller
0:52:37 and engineered by Benjamin Spencer.
0:52:39 Our associate producer is Allison Weiss.
0:52:40 Mia Silverio is our research lead.
0:52:43 Isabella Kinsell is our research associate.
0:52:45 Drew Burrows is our technical director.
0:52:47 And Katharine Dillon is our executive producer.
0:52:49 Thank you for listening to ProfG Markets
0:52:51 from the Vox Media Podcast Network.
0:52:54 Join us on Thursday for our conversation
0:52:57 with Jonathan Cantor, only on ProfG Markets.
0:53:03 ♪ Lifetimes ♪
0:53:11 ♪ You help me ♪
0:53:16 ♪ In kind reunion ♪
0:53:23 ♪ As the world turns ♪
0:53:28 ♪ And the dark lights ♪
0:53:31 ♪ And love, love, love ♪
0:53:33 (soft music)

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0:00:43 >> What’s behind the blue cow quality milk logo?
0:00:46 >> Proud Canadian dairy farmers.
0:00:49 >> Is Canadian milk produced to high standards?
0:00:50 >> You bet.
0:00:53 >> And farmers who care for their cows?
0:00:54 >> Always.
0:00:58 >> And what about sustainable farming practices?
0:00:59 >> It’s our commitment.
0:01:02 >> We’re behind the blue cow logo.
0:01:05 And that’s what the logo certifies, Dairy Farmers of Canada.
0:01:11 >> It might be enticing to try and sleep through the next four years.
0:01:14 But if you’re wondering how to survive a second Trump term while staying fully
0:01:19 conscious, Pod Save America is here to help you process what’s happening now and
0:01:21 what comes next.
0:01:25 Every Tuesday, Wednesday and Friday, John Lovett, Tommy Veter, John Travro, and
0:01:28 Dan Pfeiffer wait hip deep into the week’s political news and
0:01:30 fish out some political analysis you can trust.
0:01:33 Yes, Tommy’s shoes get ruined.
0:01:38 Yes, he’ll do it again tomorrow because the endeavor is worth it.
0:01:39 And so is your sanity.
0:01:44 Tune into Pod Save America wherever you get your podcasts and on YouTube.
0:01:49 >> Scott, how much do you know about the beauty industry?
0:01:51 >> More than your average straight white guy.
0:01:58 I worked with L’Oreal, Estee Lauder, LVMH, Clarence, Mac.
0:02:00 >> And what were your main takeaways?
0:02:02 >> That it’s a really impressive industry.
0:02:04 It attracts a lot of very smart people.
0:02:06 It’s a growing industry.
0:02:11 It’s a fantastic high margin industry that it’s all about.
0:02:16 I mean, it’s kind of the ultimate branding celebrity death match because
0:02:18 they’re all kind of selling the same mud.
0:02:25 I mean, really it’s kind of 90% branding and there’s a ton of innovation there.
0:02:28 The beauty industry or the luxury industry, it doesn’t get the credit it deserves in
0:02:30 terms of innovation, true innovation around branding.
0:02:36 There were some of the first to go vertical, have celebrity spokespeople,
0:02:38 embrace social movements.
0:02:44 John Dempsey at Estee Lauder was one of the first people to embrace gay people and
0:02:47 transgender people as spokespeople.
0:02:49 So they were always kind of cutting edge.
0:02:55 It was also an industry that advanced female executives pretty quickly.
0:02:56 So I enjoyed it.
0:02:58 I really enjoyed working with those companies.
0:03:05 >> Welcome to First Time Founders.
0:03:06 I’m Ed Elson.
0:03:15 In 1991, one woman forever changed the makeup industry with a bold mission.
0:03:19 To enhance, not alter, a woman’s natural beauty.
0:03:22 Her approach redefined how we think about makeup and
0:03:26 her name became synonymous with innovation all over the world.
0:03:29 After building a billion dollar brand, she stepped away from the company to
0:03:31 return to her entrepreneurial roots.
0:03:36 She has succeeded as a makeup artist, an entrepreneur, a television personality,
0:03:37 and a writer.
0:03:42 As a true legend in the industry, she continues to reshape the beauty landscape.
0:03:47 This time with Jones Road, a new makeup company built on the idea of clean beauty.
0:03:51 This is my conversation with Bobby Brown,
0:03:54 the founder of Bobby Brown Cosmetics and Jones Road Beauty.
0:03:57 Bobby Brown, welcome to the show.
0:03:59 >> Thank you, nice to talk to you.
0:04:04 >> I think most people know the name Bobby Brown.
0:04:08 I mean, you go into any department store in the world, you’ve seen that name.
0:04:13 I don’t think as many people know the story of Bobby Brown, the person.
0:04:20 So I want to start there, and I’d love to get a sense of your childhood to begin.
0:04:23 So tell our audience, where did you grow up?
0:04:25 What were you like as a kid?
0:04:25 What were your kind of hobbies?
0:04:27 How did this all begin?
0:04:29 >> Well, I grew up in the suburbs of Chicago.
0:04:34 And I just fell in love with makeup as a young kid.
0:04:38 I used to watch in awe as my mother would get ready for dates with my dad.
0:04:42 And she was incredibly glamorous, I never was.
0:04:46 And how I was as a kid, I mean, pretty normal, I guess.
0:04:48 I didn’t really excel in anything.
0:04:50 I had a lot of friends.
0:04:52 I was very social.
0:04:57 And when I didn’t get good grades, my parents decided they should stop punishing
0:05:01 me because I probably wouldn’t amount to anything.
0:05:08 And I think what just that meant was they just didn’t see my career as a businesswoman.
0:05:10 >> Were you excelling in makeup?
0:05:13 I mean, where did this makeup habit start?
0:05:15 >> No, I did not excel in makeup.
0:05:16 I just loved it.
0:05:17 I just loved it.
0:05:19 And I loved watching my mom do it.
0:05:21 I loved playing with it.
0:05:27 And as a middle school kid, every middle school kid is insecure.
0:05:30 And so I discovered that I could put a little bit of makeup on and look better.
0:05:34 But I didn’t want anyone to know I was wearing it so I would mess around with it.
0:05:38 And then when I went to college, I transferred a couple of times.
0:05:42 I thought college was so boring and I didn’t want to go to school.
0:05:43 And my mother said, you can’t drop out.
0:05:44 You have to do something.
0:05:47 Mom, I have no idea what I want to do.
0:05:49 She said, okay, pretend it’s your birthday.
0:05:50 You could do anything you want.
0:05:51 What would you want to do?
0:05:54 And I thought for a nanosecond.
0:05:57 And I said, I’d love to go play with makeup at the department store.
0:05:59 She said, there it is, be a makeup artist.
0:06:02 And I said, I don’t want to go to beauty school.
0:06:04 She said, I’m sure there’s a college.
0:06:08 And I found a college that let me make up my own major and that’s where I went to school.
0:06:13 No idea what I was going to do with this major, a bachelor of fine arts, but I got one.
0:06:16 And so then you moved to New York City, right?
0:06:20 Where you’re working as a freelance makeup artist.
0:06:24 Did you know at that point that that was going to be your career in the beauty industry
0:06:25 doing makeup?
0:06:27 I thought that was going to be my career.
0:06:30 I never thought anything past being a makeup artist.
0:06:35 And when I moved to New York, I didn’t know anyone and there was no internet to even figure
0:06:36 out who anyone was.
0:06:41 So I would go stand at newspaper stands and look in the magazines and see who were the
0:06:49 people I should call, which I did and opened up the yellow pages and looked under makeup.
0:06:53 And I started just putting a portfolio together.
0:06:55 And I thought, my dream is to have a Vogue cover.
0:06:58 I wanted to make up for a Vogue cover.
0:07:00 It took me seven years and I got a Vogue cover.
0:07:08 So I started this great editorial career being with all the fabulous people and traveling
0:07:09 a bunch.
0:07:14 And I made a name for myself, never thinking or knowing where it was going to lead.
0:07:19 And then you started your company, Bobby Brown Cosmetics.
0:07:23 But it wasn’t really a company because I didn’t really start a company.
0:07:29 So what had happened was I fell in love and I didn’t want to travel anymore because I
0:07:33 would have missed my then-fiancé.
0:07:39 And so we moved to New Jersey, believe it or not, from New York, which was pretty out
0:07:42 of the box because no one did that back then.
0:07:45 And I just said, I can’t keep traveling.
0:07:48 And I met a chemist at a shoot and I said, I’ve always wanted to make a lipstick that
0:07:50 looked like lips.
0:07:53 And so I made a lipstick and I’m like, wow, this is cool.
0:07:55 I bet people will buy this.
0:07:57 And I started selling it.
0:08:00 I never thought I would be a big brand.
0:08:03 I never thought I would be a no-name.
0:08:04 I never thought anything.
0:08:07 I just, wow, this is a cool lipstick.
0:08:08 I’m usually in the moment.
0:08:12 Yeah, you mentioned that you wanted to make a lipstick that looked like lips, which today
0:08:16 I don’t think sounds like a very controversial statement.
0:08:19 But back then, interestingly, it was.
0:08:25 And I think the thing that you are known for in the industry, what you pioneered was this
0:08:31 natural look, this idea of making your face not as made up as it used to be.
0:08:35 I mean, for those of us who don’t know about this, and I have to admit, I’m sort of one
0:08:40 of these people, what did makeup look like before you?
0:08:43 What was new about this natural look?
0:08:49 Well, first of all, a makeup artist would do someone’s makeup for a magazine or if
0:08:53 you went into a department store and you would put this foundation on that was whitish or
0:08:59 pinkish or just ashy and then you’d have to put all this makeup on top that was so bright
0:09:00 and garish.
0:09:01 You’d have to blend it.
0:09:05 And by the time you’re done, it just looked the best way to describe it as artificial.
0:09:07 It just didn’t look natural.
0:09:12 And for some reason, even back then, when the girls walked in the shoots or washed their
0:09:16 faces and left, I realized they looked so much better.
0:09:20 So I started doing makeup that looked like them.
0:09:25 I would use a blush, sounds crazy, that was the color of their cheeks when you pinch them.
0:09:27 I would use a foundation.
0:09:33 How about this for an a-ho moment, like a foundation that was the color of your skin.
0:09:34 No one did that.
0:09:38 What do people think when you come in there and you say, “I want to make it look the same
0:09:40 color as their skin as it is now.”
0:09:42 Did people say, “Well, that doesn’t make any sense.”
0:09:45 Did they say, “That’s not the point of this industry.”
0:09:49 Many of them said, “You’re never going to work if this is the kind of makeup you do.
0:09:51 This is not what’s in.”
0:09:52 And I’m like, “Yeah, but I like it.”
0:09:56 And there were some photographers that didn’t hire me again because I didn’t do that kind
0:10:01 of makeup that sometimes bordered on the drag queen makeup.
0:10:04 It just wasn’t my style, it wasn’t my aesthetics.
0:10:09 However, I loved when I worked with creative people that would push me to get out of my
0:10:15 comfort zone and do something very strong and avant-garde, but it was still my style.
0:10:19 So that was kind of how I honed my skills.
0:10:23 And then within a few years, I mean, you start selling this lipstick at Bergdorf Goodman
0:10:25 and it starts doing really well.
0:10:30 And then it’s kind of like this smash hit in a very short period of time.
0:10:35 So what were some of those big wins that you experienced in those few years back in the
0:10:38 early ’90s when Bobby Brown Cosmetics was really doing well?
0:10:43 I also had two children by then and lived out of the city.
0:10:47 So I was a working mom commuting back and forth to the city.
0:10:54 So it was a whirlwind truthfully, two boys that were two years apart and a husband that
0:10:57 was in law school and this company that had taken off.
0:11:02 So it was pretty incredible and I’m not sure how I got through it, except I just am the
0:11:03 kind of person.
0:11:04 I get through things.
0:11:06 I’m like, “Oh, that didn’t work.
0:11:07 Let me do it this way.”
0:11:10 So I’ve always been resilient that way.
0:11:11 It was exciting.
0:11:17 It was fun and I started doing less magazine shoots in favor of doing things that will
0:11:19 promote the makeup.
0:11:26 So going on the Today Show, I became the beauty editor and I taught women how to be a makeup
0:11:30 artist and they would end up running to a counter to buy makeup.
0:11:36 So it really took off and I guess it was four and a half years after Bobby Brown Cosmetics
0:11:38 started that we sold it.
0:11:41 Were you surprised by how well it did?
0:11:42 I was not.
0:11:43 I was excited.
0:11:47 I was thrilled and I really thought what I was doing was better than anything on the
0:11:48 market.
0:11:49 Yeah.
0:11:50 I don’t know if I’m cocky.
0:11:52 I don’t know if I’m naive.
0:11:56 I just think what I do is better.
0:12:00 I can’t help it until I think something really sucks and I’m like, “All right.
0:12:01 That was terrible.”
0:12:02 Yeah.
0:12:07 I did it both ways, but I was excited and I was really busy, really busy both at work
0:12:08 and at home.
0:12:11 What’s amazing is how quickly this all happened.
0:12:16 So this was like around four or five years after you launched this company, then you
0:12:20 get this call from Estee Lauder who were looking to buy it.
0:12:21 What happened there?
0:12:24 Well, we were beating them in the stores.
0:12:29 We were number one in Bergdorf and Niemans and Lauder always was.
0:12:31 So they went and they said, “Who is this?
0:12:32 What is this?”
0:12:39 And we weren’t for sale, but we ended up selling the company and I stayed as an employee, a
0:12:42 corporate employee for 22 years.
0:12:46 It was about almost $100 million.
0:12:48 Was that a difficult decision?
0:12:49 No.
0:12:50 It was not a difficult decision.
0:12:57 My husband and I had business partners that were a little bit difficult.
0:13:00 And so I never felt I sold to Estee Lauder.
0:13:09 I sold to Leonard Lauder and he just became my biggest supporter and he just, I knew he
0:13:10 supported me.
0:13:16 I knew he believed in me and I felt he was my partner and he introduced us, my husband
0:13:23 and I, to so many things and the partners and we couldn’t have done it without Estee
0:13:24 Lauder.
0:13:28 But we didn’t know and also he said probably the thing that made the most sense to me.
0:13:32 He said, “I know what’s important to you and that’s being a mom and being with your
0:13:38 kids and we can help you have both worlds where we could do the things that you don’t
0:13:44 really care about and you could be as involved and as in charge as you want.”
0:13:49 What was that like to meet Leonard Lauder, who’s kind of this icon in the beauty industry?
0:13:56 I mean, considering how quick your rise was and then you’re suddenly catapulted up there
0:14:01 and then I assume you’re meeting and having meals with this titan of the industry.
0:14:02 How did that feel?
0:14:05 Well, it was so, so cool, first of all.
0:14:11 And anyone that knows Leonard, he is the warmest, nicest guy, so inclusive, making
0:14:15 sure you’re okay, making sure everything’s working.
0:14:19 So you don’t get business partners like that very often.
0:14:26 So it was amazing and we would go to all of his art shows and openings and galas and
0:14:35 sit at his table and it was, for Stephen and I, we would just be like, “This is so interesting.”
0:14:36 Met great people.
0:14:40 And then in 2016, you decided to leave.
0:14:44 Was it hard to leave this company that you built yourself?
0:14:49 It was hard and it was really easy because, you know, for so many of the years, things
0:14:53 were great and there was a whole bunch of years that things were not great.
0:14:55 It was not an overnight decision.
0:15:02 It was a lot of angst and agony and, you know, eventually it just, it reached a point and
0:15:05 it was like, “Okay, done.”
0:15:11 And it was tough and not easy after I left to kind of figure out, “Who am I?
0:15:12 What am I going to do?
0:15:14 Am I going to be a one-hit wonder?
0:15:16 You know, what am I going to do with my time?”
0:15:22 Like I didn’t need to work, but I also didn’t need to learn how to play golf or tennis or
0:15:23 anything.
0:15:24 Yeah.
0:15:25 What did you do with your time right after that?
0:15:29 I started a bunch of new businesses.
0:15:31 I, you know, that’s what I did.
0:15:35 I had, my husband and I developed a hotel in Montclair called the George.
0:15:38 We have a photo studio, an event studio called 18 Label.
0:15:44 I started a line of supplements and wellness that I launched with Walmart.
0:15:46 I went back to being a makeup artist.
0:15:47 I filmed a master class.
0:15:53 I mean, I did a lot of interesting things until my non-compete was up.
0:16:01 And I didn’t know I was going to have another beauty company, but I did.
0:16:16 We’ll be right back.
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0:18:35 We’re back with first-time founders.
0:18:42 So we’ll just fast-forward here to your latest beauty company, which is Jones Road, which
0:18:50 you launched on October 26th, 2020, which was the exact day that your 25-year non-compete
0:18:53 with Estee Lauder ended.
0:18:58 So my question was going to be, was this always part of the plan?
0:19:02 I mean, it certainly looks like it, but you say no, you didn’t know.
0:19:08 Well, the plan of when I was going to launch it came after I realized I wanted to do something
0:19:09 again.
0:19:12 And I kept everything under wraps because I had a non-compete.
0:19:19 So I worked on a couple products with a very small team of one.
0:19:21 And I wasn’t sure how I was going to launch it.
0:19:24 At first I said, well, I’ll just launch it on Etsy.
0:19:26 I’ll start selling a pencil on Etsy.
0:19:27 I’ll start.
0:19:31 And I had a four and a half year left under 25 years when I left the brand.
0:19:35 It’s a really long time for someone that doesn’t have a lot of patience.
0:19:39 Everybody just said, wait, just wait, wait till you’re free, wait till your non-compete
0:19:40 is up.
0:19:41 And we did.
0:19:47 And think about it, we launched the day the non-compete was up, and that was one week
0:19:51 before the then presidential election in the middle of the pandemic, in the middle of
0:19:55 all the social unrest, and everyone said, don’t do it.
0:19:59 Every PR guru I talked to said, you’re out of your mind, you’re out of your mind.
0:20:01 And I just didn’t listen.
0:20:05 Just like I didn’t listen when they told me I need to do different kind of makeup.
0:20:06 It just felt right.
0:20:07 I’m like, no, this feels right.
0:20:12 I mean, I think about this with my own work too, where it’s like, I find that the best
0:20:16 stuff is the stuff that I truly believe is good.
0:20:21 And I’m just kind of convinced by it, and I’m not really sure why.
0:20:24 And you’ve sort of done that over and over again.
0:20:25 Where do you think that comes from?
0:20:31 Well, it’s not that I don’t listen, because I listen to what they say, but then I decide
0:20:32 what’s right for me.
0:20:38 And I hear you, I hear you, I hear you, but I want to do this, and I think it’s right.
0:20:39 I don’t know where it comes.
0:20:41 I don’t know where my gut comes.
0:20:43 My gut is not always right.
0:20:47 It’s often right, and it’s many times wrong.
0:20:49 So I just, no, this makes sense.
0:20:50 Why not?
0:20:54 And I’m also someone that I don’t believe in failure.
0:20:55 Like, so what?
0:20:58 We do something, and we say, well, that was really dumb.
0:20:59 That didn’t work.
0:21:00 All right, well, let me do something else.
0:21:03 That taught me that I can’t do this again.
0:21:10 So I just start again, brush myself off and say, let’s go do this.
0:21:14 This company, Jones Road, is the opposite of a failure.
0:21:19 I mean, I’m just looking at the financials here that have floated around online.
0:21:24 My understanding is that Jones Road did $20 million in revenue in its first year, and
0:21:29 then last year, it was around $150 million in revenue.
0:21:30 57.
0:21:32 There we go.
0:21:36 What do you think has made this company such a success?
0:21:39 Oh my God, it’s not just me.
0:21:45 You know, I mean, I’m certainly part of it, and what I, again, what I believe in is making
0:21:48 makeup that when you put it on, you just look better.
0:21:50 I mean, a stupid concept, right?
0:21:52 No, that’s why people wear makeup.
0:21:58 And I don’t listen to all the noise out there of what should be done or what other people
0:22:01 are doing, because that’s great for them.
0:22:06 And yeah, there’s a market for makeup, you know, to contour and overline your lips and,
0:22:08 you know, do all those crazy things.
0:22:10 It’s just not my market.
0:22:15 But there’s enough people that just want to look better.
0:22:19 And you know, the hashtag I started when we launched Jones Road, which no one uses except
0:22:24 me, because I guess no one uses hashtags anymore, was how not to look like shit.
0:22:28 Like, that’s why I wear makeup, because I’m like, I just look like shit.
0:22:29 What am I doing here?
0:22:36 When you look back at Bobby Brown Cosmetics, which you launched in 1990, and then you
0:22:42 look at Jones Road, which you launched 30 years later in 2020, what would you say are
0:22:48 like the main differences in the beauty industry back then compared to today?
0:22:54 Like what are some things in your overall strategy that you had to change just because
0:22:55 we’re living in a new era?
0:22:56 Right.
0:22:57 Well, so many things.
0:22:58 Like distribution.
0:23:00 You know, we’re not in department stores.
0:23:04 I mean, one store in the world, we are in one store in the world, and that’s Liberty
0:23:07 in London because it’s Liberty.
0:23:09 I mean, there’s no other store like that.
0:23:12 And I think also just doing things differently.
0:23:21 So our current CEO happens to be this mastermind of digital marketing, weirdly enough, he also
0:23:29 happens to be my second son, which is just the weirdest thing to think that this kid
0:23:37 who didn’t really care a thing about makeup, and has just really made a huge difference
0:23:41 and now he’s running the company, I mean, he has finance reporting to him.
0:23:46 He has, I think, I’m not sure if he reports to me or I report to him, it depends who you
0:23:48 talk to.
0:23:49 And his wife is our head of brand.
0:23:54 So weirdly enough, we have turned into a family business.
0:23:58 My husband is the head of our board.
0:24:03 And my other kids are there when I need their opinion, which they’re very loud, they give
0:24:05 to me.
0:24:07 And it’s just the world is different.
0:24:12 And I think it’s so interesting to do things different ways, to market it different ways,
0:24:18 to talk to your customer the way you would talk to a friend and not have layers.
0:24:24 That’s the biggest thing, not have layers and not waste time, energy and money on consultants
0:24:25 that you don’t need.
0:24:26 What do you mean by layers?
0:24:33 Oh my God, to get something approved at the height of my career at the big corporate company,
0:24:37 there was people that you just had to get all these people’s opinion on from all the
0:24:40 different departments and corporate and internal.
0:24:46 And now it’s, I make the final say on some things, Cody makes the final say on other
0:24:50 things and we work it together.
0:24:54 So you have a conversation, you hash it out and then a decision is made.
0:25:01 Yeah, it does feel that direct to consumer is this, or maybe we just call it direct,
0:25:08 this idea of getting rid of all of the intermediaries, whether it means trying to make a corporate
0:25:12 decision and then having it go through this long chain and then finally being spat out
0:25:14 at the other end.
0:25:18 These are trying to get rid of that and then we’re also seeing it in marketing and entertainment
0:25:25 where podcasts like ourselves, we’re just putting our stuff direct out to our audience.
0:25:33 It feels like this is a new trend and it does seem, you’re almost 100% D2C at Jones Road.
0:25:35 How do you create that culture in your company?
0:25:41 How do you keep those layers from getting into the structure and how do you keep everything
0:25:43 as direct as you have it now?
0:25:49 We’re pretty lean, we’re pretty scrappy and we tend to hire, I don’t know if it’s a good
0:25:57 thing or a bad thing, but younger people with less history of experience, I mean our creative
0:26:03 director, it’s her first job and she’s phenomenal and I don’t even think she’s 27 yet.
0:26:09 I don’t know, she might’ve just turned 27 and she’s just talented and so there’s sometimes
0:26:16 that gets frustrating because people don’t have the experience and I’m not going to say
0:26:21 the maturity, but the experience to say, “Okay, wait, this has to be done or that has to
0:26:29 be done,” but they’re learning and I’m learning by the way that it’s my job to not only expect
0:26:34 them to do it, but also to teach them, like, “Okay, let’s look at this, wouldn’t it make
0:26:39 more sense if we did this two months earlier and not the day before?”
0:26:43 I keep getting things to approve on my, I’m like, “Oh my God, it has to go up tomorrow,
0:26:51 I have to look at it now,” but whatever, it’s a new world and in order to be successful
0:26:58 now is you have to just be different and just be open and scrappy and not waste money.
0:27:04 Just going back to the differences between then and now, I mean, you’re in this unique
0:27:09 position, you started two successful companies in the same category in totally different
0:27:16 times and I’d be interested to know, to understand your views on just how, what role is social
0:27:23 media playing in the beauty industry today and how important is it for your strategy?
0:27:30 Well, it’s super important and for us, it’s very authentic and I have actually had a couple
0:27:37 podcasts that I was a host of, I’m not anymore and I think all those things just brings you
0:27:45 to a new audience and the health of any company are yes, you’re existing customers, but you’re
0:27:46 new customers.
0:27:53 So for me, doing new media is super important, I opened a sub-stack last year, there was
0:27:59 three people that read it and now it’s growing and now everyone’s talking about sub-stack.
0:28:06 So TikTok was huge for us, it quadrupled our business, we had a bunch of viral moments
0:28:10 and we’re not doing that anymore because that’s not working the way it was.
0:28:18 So you kind of have to shift and be open and Cody is a very big proponent in our digital
0:28:22 marketing and ad spend, so I don’t know exactly what he does.
0:28:28 I don’t even know how much he spends, I just know that we have healthy sales and I know
0:28:31 people that watch cable TV tell me they see my commercial.
0:28:37 I don’t watch cable news but apparently it’s on every cable show, so especially in Florida
0:28:43 everyone stops me and says, “I saw you on CNN, I saw you on Fox, I saw you on…” and
0:28:45 everyone yells at me like, “Why are you on CNN?
0:28:46 Why are you on Fox?”
0:28:48 I’m like, “All right, everyone just stop, it’s just makeup.”
0:28:58 Yeah, I mean it’s so funny, you’ve basically found success in every entertainment medium
0:29:06 or every digital channel or TV channel, every medium, you’ve succeeded as a makeup artist,
0:29:12 you’ve been a successful entrepreneur, you’ve written several successful books.
0:29:18 I kind of just think of you as yes, a makeup artist but more importantly just a serial
0:29:23 achiever and it sounds like whatever you put your mind to.
0:29:28 So this is kind of a trite question but I do think it’s important.
0:29:32 What do you think is the secret to your success?
0:29:36 Why do you think you have been successful in all of these different realms?
0:29:40 Well I actually have an answer that I believe there’s two things.
0:29:45 One is I’m incredibly naive, like I don’t think it’s not going to work, I don’t think
0:29:50 I’m too old, I don’t think I’m too short, I don’t think I’m too anything and the other
0:29:56 thing is I’m really good at knowing what I have no idea what to do and I hire people
0:29:57 that do it.
0:30:01 So I’ve written nine books, I don’t know, nine or ten, I forget.
0:30:05 I don’t know how to type and I’ve written nine books.
0:30:10 And half of the books, by the way, I photographed first and then I wrote the books to the pictures.
0:30:17 So I just figured out if I do things the bobby way, for me it works better and by the way
0:30:21 when people work with me they either get me or they don’t.
0:30:27 So I’m writing a book now and I take a screenshot of the pages and I send the screenshot to
0:30:31 someone and the screenshot is a pen that I took to the paper and all the changes and
0:30:36 someone has to retype it and send it back and then I do it again.
0:30:38 So that is not for the faint of heart.
0:30:42 Yeah, it’s also called incredibly good delegation.
0:30:47 Yes, but micromanaging in the same way.
0:30:47 We’ll be right back.
0:31:01 We’re taking Vox Media podcasts on the road and heading back to Austin for the South
0:31:04 by Southwest Festival, March 8th to the 10th.
0:31:05 What a thrill.
0:31:09 We’ll be doing special live episodes of hit shows, including Pivot.
0:31:10 That’s right.
0:31:12 That dog’s going to the great state of Texas.
0:31:18 Where should we begin with Esther Perel, a Touch More with Sue Bird and Megan Rapinoe,
0:31:23 not just football with Cam Hayward and more presented by Smartsheet.
0:31:28 The Vox Media podcast stage at South by Southwest is open to all South by Southwest badge holders.
0:31:31 We hope to see you at the Austin Convention Center soon.
0:31:36 Visit voxmedia.com/sxsw to learn more.
0:31:45 Visit voxmedia.com/sxsw.
0:31:49 We’re taking Vox Media podcasts on the road and heading back to Austin for the South
0:31:52 by Southwest Festival, March 8th to the 10th.
0:31:53 What a thrill.
0:31:57 Chicken fajitas, queso, strawberry margarita, extra chata tequila.
0:32:02 There you’ll be able to see special live episodes of hit shows, including our show Pivot.
0:32:04 Where should we begin with Esther Perel?
0:32:09 A Touch More with Sue Bird and Megan Rapinoe, not just football with Cam Hayward and more
0:32:12 presented by Smartsheet.
0:32:18 The Vox Media podcast stage at South by Southwest is open to all South by Southwest badge holders.
0:32:21 We hope to see you at the Austin Convention Center soon.
0:32:22 I’m not joking.
0:32:23 I love South by Southwest.
0:32:25 The people are a ton of fun.
0:32:26 It’s a great time.
0:32:33 If you do come up and say hi, visit voxmedia.com/sxsw to learn more.
0:32:40 Visit voxmedia.com/sxsw.
0:32:45 A New York City bodega recently started selling what they’re calling Lucy Eggs.
0:32:49 Instead of a dozen or half dozen, you can buy a little bag with three little eggs in
0:32:50 it.
0:32:53 The idea got a ton of attention.
0:32:57 It’s not loose cigarettes, but loose eggs drawing people to Pamela’s green deli.
0:33:02 He says the idea to sell the loose eggs came after seeing customers being forced to leave
0:33:05 a full carton on the counter.
0:33:08 Currently, New York State requires eggs to be sold in packages.
0:33:13 And while the price of eggs is cracking wallets right now, Rodriguez tells us he just hopes
0:33:19 to help his community one day at a time.
0:33:21 Eggs are too expensive.
0:33:22 Ask anyone.
0:33:23 Ask the president of the United States.
0:33:27 The eggs, because I’m hearing so much about eggs, you’ll figure it out, you gotta figure
0:33:28 something out fast.
0:33:33 But on today, Explained Vox’s Kenny Torello is actually going to make the case that eggs
0:33:37 are too cheap.
0:33:45 Get a load of this guy, will ya?
0:33:47 We’re back with First Time Founders.
0:33:53 You’ve also built, you know, in addition to these brands you’ve built in the beauty industry,
0:33:56 you’ve also built this personal brand.
0:34:03 Like, you know, people know Bobby Brown, they see you on TV, they read your books.
0:34:08 For whatever reason, Bobby Brown, the person, is intriguing to people.
0:34:10 I’d love to just know more about that.
0:34:12 Was this intentional?
0:34:15 Do you think of yourself as a brand?
0:34:17 Do you try to brand yourself?
0:34:19 I don’t try to do anything.
0:34:22 And I don’t think of myself as a brand.
0:34:29 And I think why people relate to me is because my, I’m exactly the same way on TV and in
0:34:34 interviews as I am if I was at your house.
0:34:35 And I’m real and authentic.
0:34:41 I mean, I’ve, you know, I talk about my three sons, you know, more than I talk about my
0:34:42 business.
0:34:43 Like, if someone says, “How are you doing?”
0:34:44 I mean, it’s about my kids.
0:34:45 It’s the most important thing.
0:34:49 My marriage at 36 years, the most important thing.
0:34:55 It feels like the beauty industry is an industry where this is uniquely important, like the
0:34:58 role of celebrities and influences.
0:35:04 And I think about all of the beauty brands that have risen in the last few years that
0:35:06 are started by celebrities.
0:35:10 Like you’ve got like Kylie Jenner’s company and Rihanna has one of the biggest makeup companies
0:35:12 in the world and Selena Gomez.
0:35:17 Like this is a very celebrity heavy industry.
0:35:23 And I’m wondering if that is a new phenomenon, you know, did the beauty industry look like
0:35:31 that several years ago, you know, back when you were building Bobby Brown cosmetics?
0:35:36 And if not, you know, why has this influence or culture emerged in this industry?
0:35:37 Well, it’s funny.
0:35:42 I mentioned three of the celebrities that have substantial brands and something, it’s
0:35:46 not just their name, like they have a point of view and, you know, they’re doing well
0:35:47 for a reason.
0:35:52 There’s a lot of celebrities that their name is attached to it, but there’s no real, there’s
0:35:55 no real connection or the products aren’t good.
0:35:59 Like, it’s, the products have to be good to be able to have a brand.
0:36:02 And when I was first starting, there was no celebrity brands.
0:36:05 There was no makeup artists that had brands.
0:36:11 You know, there was Elizabeth Taylor, who was the face of, you know, whatever Revlon
0:36:16 it was or, you know, models and actresses that were paid by companies to be their spokes.
0:36:18 I think they called them spokespeople.
0:36:19 Spokespeople.
0:36:20 That’s funny.
0:36:21 Right.
0:36:22 I mean, I think that’s what it was.
0:36:26 And they were in all the ads and all of that they didn’t own the brands.
0:36:33 I mean, now I do think it’s pretty amazing and cool that so many celebrities, actresses,
0:36:38 you know, retired sports players now can have their own thing because, you know, a lot of
0:36:41 careers are done when you’re 30.
0:36:42 And so it’s good.
0:36:45 You know, I think it’s a wonderful thing that people could be an entrepreneur and business
0:36:46 people as they get older.
0:36:51 I look at my dear friend, Michael Strahan, you know, who was a retired football player
0:36:55 and the guy has blown up, you know, talk about a personal brand.
0:37:00 So it doesn’t always work and it’s not easy.
0:37:01 That’s the thing.
0:37:02 People think it’s easy.
0:37:03 None of it is easy.
0:37:05 It requires constant work.
0:37:09 And when things don’t work, you need to push back and say, OK, things are not working now.
0:37:10 What do we do?
0:37:17 Do you think it’s essential today to have that level of digital social influencer presence
0:37:23 for a consumer brand like Jones Road or any of these other beauty companies?
0:37:30 Like is it essential that you have a big following somewhere to successfully launch a consumer
0:37:31 product like this?
0:37:34 I would say it’s pretty essential and pretty important.
0:37:41 And you know, the main thing you want to do is to have people know about you or discover
0:37:43 you through whatever.
0:37:48 And you know, social media, if you’re not overspending on, you know, hiring companies
0:37:52 to come in and do everything, it’s pretty much free, you know?
0:37:57 So we now have, I think we have two people now in our social media department where we
0:38:03 used to have, you know, none and whoever was around would be helping and doing it.
0:38:07 And some brands have 30 people and have agencies.
0:38:10 So you know, it all depends what’s right for you.
0:38:17 And I guess because they have me, they don’t need to have a spokesperson that they pay.
0:38:21 I’m kind of a big spokesperson for it.
0:38:26 And you know, we have a look, we have an opportunity to reach a younger consumer.
0:38:29 I don’t know, do the 30 year olds know about me?
0:38:30 I don’t know.
0:38:32 You know, how do we reach them?
0:38:36 I don’t know, you know, but so, you know, you always think about that.
0:38:39 What are your views on social media in general?
0:38:42 Does it make you anxious?
0:38:43 Does it make you excited?
0:38:49 Like do you feel overall positive or negative on the way we’re headed into this digital
0:38:50 world?
0:38:51 I think both.
0:38:54 I mean, I’m glad I don’t have three young daughters because I think it would be really
0:38:55 hard.
0:38:59 It’s hard enough when you didn’t get invited to a party when you were a kid.
0:39:03 And to see the party and all your friends online, you know, is tough.
0:39:08 And you know, when I see certain activations that brand has done that I didn’t get invited
0:39:12 to, by the way, I don’t want to go, I just wanted to be invited.
0:39:15 So I’m like, oh, I didn’t get invited to that.
0:39:16 You know, right.
0:39:17 I mean, we all feel like that.
0:39:19 So I’m like, yeah, okay.
0:39:25 You know, I think it kind of you, I take it with a grain of salt and I think the positive
0:39:30 thing is the way that I personally connect with people, I’ve booked models, I’ve found
0:39:36 beautiful women who are posting exercise pictures of them and, okay, would you, if I send you
0:39:37 makeup, do you want to try it?
0:39:40 And then they start, you know, they start posting.
0:39:43 So we’ve developed a community of people.
0:39:45 We have a Facebook group.
0:39:46 It’s called the Roadies.
0:39:54 You know, Jones wrote the Roadies last, last count, there were 66,000 of them, 66,000.
0:39:59 And if you go on there and you see these women talk to each other, and if someone says, I
0:40:03 can’t use this because of this, 22 people say, no, no, no, no, you’re using it wrong.
0:40:04 Let me show you.
0:40:09 I mean, and if I need to know something, what other colors do you want me to put out?
0:40:12 Oh my God, I get flooded with the list.
0:40:19 So you know, I personally use that as my market research and my community that, you know,
0:40:21 will tell me what they like and what they don’t like.
0:40:24 Well, Bobby, you’ve been very generous with your time.
0:40:25 Thank you.
0:40:29 You have your first short television series on YouTube coming out a few days after this
0:40:30 episode airs.
0:40:32 You want to tell us a little bit about the show and how it came about?
0:40:33 Sure.
0:40:34 It’s called I Am Me.
0:40:39 And that’s the brand pillar of Jones Road, which is teaching women like, you know, I’m
0:40:41 not trying to change you into someone else.
0:40:42 You’re fine the way you are.
0:40:46 I mean, makeup is a nice tool to make you feel more like yourself.
0:40:52 And this started because we hosted at the George Hotel, a women of influence sleepover
0:40:57 with women like Gloria Steinem and Deborah Roberts and all these amazing women where
0:41:02 we talked about body image and hair and all these different things.
0:41:05 And we spent 24 hours together and it was incredible.
0:41:09 I wanted to figure out a way how to bring this to a larger audience.
0:41:13 So it’s being sponsored by JP Morgan.
0:41:17 So the conversations, they’re 10 to 15 minute conversations and they’re going to be about
0:41:23 confidence, self-esteem, and being comfortable with your career, your money, because, you
0:41:29 know, how men and women, you know, we’re not that different that way, how we feel about
0:41:34 ourselves and how we feel about our careers and are very, they’re very kind of hand in
0:41:35 hand.
0:41:36 Yeah.
0:41:43 To wrap up confidence, you are an extremely confident person.
0:41:45 Where does confidence come from?
0:41:49 How can people be more confident in their daily lives?
0:41:53 I realized probably not until I was in my fifties.
0:41:54 What is confidence?
0:41:55 Everyone talks about it.
0:41:56 How do I become confident?
0:41:58 It’s really simple.
0:42:01 Just be comfortable in who your skin and who you are.
0:42:06 When you realize this is who I am, take it or leave it, that’s being confident.
0:42:09 You know, I tried to change, but it didn’t work.
0:42:12 So being myself kind of fit the best.
0:42:15 Bobby Brown is the founder of Jones Road Beauty.
0:42:17 She is a legend of the beauty industry.
0:42:20 Bobby, this was so fun.
0:42:22 Thank you for joining the show.
0:42:24 This was a real treat for us.
0:42:25 My pleasure.
0:42:33 Our producer is Claire Miller, our associate producer is Alison Weiss, and our engineer
0:42:34 is Benjamin Spencer.
0:42:39 Thank you for listening to First Time Founders from the Vox Media Podcast Network.
0:42:41 Tune in tomorrow for Prodigy Markets.
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