0:00:06 Here’s an oldie but a goodie from the archives from the Side Hustle Show Greatest Hits Collection.
0:00:10 Plus, stick around for the time travel segment at the end where we check in with present-day
0:00:15 Anthony to get his update on everything that’s happened since this 2021 original.
0:00:18 What’s up, what’s up, Nick Loper here.
0:00:23 Welcome to the Side Hustle Show because your 9 to 5 may make you a living, but your 5 to
0:00:24 9 makes you alive.
0:00:31 In this episode, you’ll meet Anthony and Janilka Hartzog, who were on a mission to erase
0:00:34 six figures of debt, which they ended up doing in under two years.
0:00:39 They were making good money at their day jobs, they’re following the Dave Ramsey debt snowball
0:00:44 plan, but they came to this realization, like many listeners of the show do, there’s only
0:00:46 so much you can cut from your budget.
0:00:50 That’s when they turned to the income side of the equation and started a ton of different
0:00:51 side hustles.
0:00:57 They picked up second jobs at their gym, they were renting out their car on Turo, they
0:01:03 were dog-sitting, and inspired by my episode with Chris Schwab, 295, they started a residential
0:01:07 cleaning business called Maidstomatch.com.
0:01:14 Today, that business is doing $20,000 to $25,000 a month in sales with other people doing the
0:01:14 cleaning.
0:01:19 Anthony and Janilka are fully in business owner mode, dedicating just a few hours a week to
0:01:19 it.
0:01:24 Stick around in this one to hear how they got it done while working full time, including
0:01:28 how they connect with reliable cleaners and the marketing tactics that are paying off.
0:01:35 You can follow along with their journey at The Hartramony on Instagram, H-A-R-T, and you’ll
0:01:40 find the full text summary of this episode along with the links and resources mentioned at
0:01:45 sidehustlenation.com slash clean2, clean and then the number 2.
0:01:50 While you’re there, make sure to download the free list of 101 service business ideas that
0:01:53 you might be able to apply Anthony and Janilka’s strategy to.
0:01:59 Once again, that’s at sidehustlenation.com slash clean2 or through the link in the episode
0:02:01 description of your podcast player app.
0:02:04 I’ll be back with my top takeaways after the interview.
0:02:05 Ready?
0:02:06 Let’s do it.
0:02:15 I came across one of your interviews where it was a kid, a guy that was making $10,000 a
0:02:20 month in cleaning, but the caveat was he wasn’t cleaning houses himself.
0:02:21 That was a big caveat.
0:02:26 So I brought the idea to my esteemed wife and…
0:02:26 I said no.
0:02:32 At that time, at first I thought he meant that we were going to be cleaning and he explained
0:02:35 no, but at that time we had never run a business before.
0:02:37 So it was just kind of left field.
0:02:38 It’s like, well, how do we do this?
0:02:39 How do we know where to start?
0:02:45 He’s like, I’m telling you, I listened to this podcast and he’s been doing it.
0:02:46 So it kind of was a no.
0:02:51 And then he brought it back maybe two, three months after with more results, more information
0:02:52 that he’s gained, that he gained.
0:02:55 And that was the kickstart for us.
0:02:55 All right.
0:02:58 So this is Chris Schwab, you know, from ThinkMades.
0:03:02 It’s like, if he can do this, you know, while he’s still in college, like we ought to be able
0:03:03 to figure this out.
0:03:07 After convincing Janilka, what was the next step to make this thing a reality?
0:03:12 Before she even came back around and quote, unquote, me convincing her, the idea had to
0:03:12 be planted first.
0:03:13 That was a big part of it.
0:03:15 Plant the idea, plant the seed.
0:03:18 And then we’ll revisit it over the next couple of weeks.
0:03:21 So I spoke to Chris and he explained some of the basics.
0:03:23 I did a lot of Googling, a lot of researching.
0:03:25 And it was like, listen, we could do this.
0:03:26 We’re not going to have to clean.
0:03:28 Here’s how we’re going to do it.
0:03:29 We’re going to hire contractors.
0:03:37 It’s going to be similar to like handy.com or Airbnb or even Uber, Lyft, DoorDash.
0:03:38 We’re not going to deliver food.
0:03:40 We’re not going to have hotels.
0:03:44 It’s going to be us connecting cleaners with people who want their houses cleaned.
0:03:51 Yeah, it’s an interesting one because thinking advantage of the current state of the business
0:03:56 where a lot of these existing operators in the cleaning space and in really a lot of local
0:03:59 service businesses, they don’t have a great online presence.
0:04:03 They kind of rely just on the clients they’ve always had or, you know, maybe a little bit
0:04:08 of word of mouth, but like they’re not doing a lot of proactive marketing stuff in the digital
0:04:08 age.
0:04:14 And so you’re saying, okay, we can come in here and present a well thought out brand, which
0:04:19 you’ve done at maidstomatch.com and then go out and find cleaners for that.
0:04:24 So was it a matter of trying to book the jobs first or try and find cleaners first?
0:04:26 Oh, that’s our number one question.
0:04:29 The chicken, which come first, the chicken or the egg?
0:04:34 Well, we always say that we get the contractors first because we don’t want to do the clean.
0:04:38 So if you start booking the jobs and they come in, unless you’re able to go out there and
0:04:40 do the clean, you need to have the contractors.
0:04:44 And I know sometimes people are saying, well, I don’t have enough work for contractors.
0:04:46 So why would I continue to bring them on?
0:04:48 But as a contractor, they have other jobs.
0:04:50 They’re not just relying on you.
0:04:55 So that’s okay for them to just be waiting, you know, maybe a week or two to get jobs from
0:04:55 you.
0:04:59 But we definitely say get the contractors unless you are comfortable going to clean the
0:05:00 home yourself.
0:05:04 And we tell all of our students that because it’s important to know what you’re going to
0:05:07 do first because a lot of them get stuck on that, what comes first part of it.
0:05:10 And if we tell you what should come first, you should just go and do that.
0:05:14 So we try to make it as simple as possible when we’re talking about,
0:05:17 this business structure, not only for us to learn it, but also for our students as well.
0:05:21 What was that process like for you guys to find those cleaners?
0:05:22 That’s why I’m finding the business.
0:05:23 People.
0:05:28 Finding people to this day when people always act as we would say, always be hiring.
0:05:33 So we’re always marketing the same way we market for our cleaning business.
0:05:35 We market for contractors as well.
0:05:40 Because, you know, as a contractor, they have the flexibility of one day saying, yeah, I don’t
0:05:42 want to work anymore or moving or whatever the case may be.
0:05:46 So if we want to continue to grow, we need to continue to market to them.
0:05:48 So that is the ongoing process for us.
0:05:51 And we try to market in various different ways.
0:05:52 So we do.
0:05:54 We talk about free marketing versus paid marketing.
0:05:58 So a lot of free places where you can find people are Facebook groups, believe it or not.
0:06:00 A lot of people are looking for jobs on Facebook.
0:06:02 Craigslist, a lot of cleaners.
0:06:04 When you’re talking about looking for contracts, you look for cleaners.
0:06:07 They’re still marketing in places like that to find cleaning jobs.
0:06:11 So if they’re still on Craigslist looking for jobs, they’d be on Craigslist looking for work
0:06:11 as well.
0:06:16 Nextdoor.com is another big place we look for cleaners on the free set of things.
0:06:22 But paid, looking for people on Yelp, Thumbtack, also Indeed, ZipRecruiter.
0:06:28 So we teach people different ways to kind of find the cleaners, but there’s numerous ways
0:06:28 to find them.
0:06:33 And let’s say you find somebody through a Nextdoor, through a Craigslist.
0:06:35 What’s the pitch to them?
0:06:37 Is it just, we’d love to add you to our roster.
0:06:38 We’re a new cleaning business.
0:06:43 If you have any availability in your calendar, we’d love to be able to try and help you fill
0:06:43 that.
0:06:44 Like, what’s that conversation like?
0:06:47 We basically let them know like what we can provide for them.
0:06:50 Why would you work with us, basically?
0:06:51 What’s in it for me?
0:06:52 What’s in it for them?
0:06:56 And how we, how frequently we pay, how much we pay, all those type of things we go over
0:07:01 with them in the process before we continue on with the interview process.
0:07:03 So yeah, we do pitch the services in that way.
0:07:04 It varies.
0:07:06 Some people like have done it before.
0:07:08 They know the platform.
0:07:09 They know like how it works.
0:07:11 So they’re like totally understand.
0:07:12 And some people feel like it’s too good to be true.
0:07:15 And so they’re like, huh?
0:07:17 Like, so I just get this amount.
0:07:19 So we basically say like, you do the job well.
0:07:21 We handle everything else.
0:07:22 We handle the marketing.
0:07:22 We have everything else.
0:07:24 You just got to show up, do the clean.
0:07:25 And that’s it.
0:07:27 You don’t have to worry about the pricing.
0:07:28 You don’t have to worry about the customer service.
0:07:29 You don’t have to worry about rescheduling.
0:07:33 We handle, we handle all those things that they’re usually not good at.
0:07:35 And most cleaning technicians are good at cleaning.
0:07:38 So most people in the local service business is really good at cleaning.
0:07:39 Right.
0:07:43 Talk to me about the pricing conversation because this is, I mean, you got to make money on the
0:07:43 spread.
0:07:49 If they’re used to charging, I don’t know, 80 bucks to do this job and you’re going to charge
0:07:51 the customer 80 bucks, there’s no margin left over.
0:07:54 Tell me about how that piece of the puzzle works.
0:07:55 Okay.
0:07:58 So when it comes to pricing, we do, we’re very upfront about that.
0:08:03 Our cleaners get 60%, we get 40% and they’re able to see right away how much they’ll get paid
0:08:05 for a job when they’re accepting it.
0:08:10 We also encourage them to go onto our website so they can see how much we are charging clients,
0:08:12 but also it’s a partnership.
0:08:16 So if they are somewhere and they feel like, hey, the client should be charged a bit more,
0:08:18 they kind of communicate that to us as well.
0:08:24 So that’s an ongoing conversation, but we’re very upfront about the pricing and we’re priced
0:08:26 a bit higher so that the split does make sense.
0:08:31 And we also ask them when we start working with them, how much do they charge their clients
0:08:34 so we can get an idea of, okay, once we split this, does it make sense?
0:08:35 Is it too high?
0:08:37 Is it too low to kind of go from there?
0:08:41 And it also makes sense for our clients as well, because we always get the conversation
0:08:44 as to, oh, I had a private cleaner and it was a lot cheaper than you guys.
0:08:45 Why are you guys more expensive?
0:08:49 But there’s a reason why you’re talking to us, why you’re having a conversation with us,
0:08:54 because either your previous cleaner wasn’t good enough for you or what happens more likely
0:08:55 is that they cancel.
0:08:55 Yeah.
0:08:57 And now you’re stranded and you need somebody last minute.
0:09:01 But if someone cancels on us, we have an entire team that we could get out to you versus just
0:09:02 having one person.
0:09:08 Is there a target hourly rate that you’ve found cleaners are happy with?
0:09:09 Yeah.
0:09:14 What we say is the rate kind of breaks down to even with the 60%, it ranges from about $25
0:09:16 to $35 an hour.
0:09:19 But honestly, it’s usually probably 30 plus.
0:09:20 Yeah.
0:09:24 Usually, depending on how fast they clean or how good they are, how many jobs they were to
0:09:25 take.
0:09:27 Do they have a team so they can take bigger homes?
0:09:28 All those things varies.
0:09:31 But I would say it’s usually no less than $30 an hour.
0:09:32 Okay.
0:09:35 And do you guys have it where it’s somewhat fixed pricing?
0:09:36 Like, hey, if you’ve got a two-bedroom place, it’s this.
0:09:38 If you have a three-bedroom place, it’s this.
0:09:40 Yes, we have a flat rate.
0:09:45 But obviously, if you add on things, if it’s a deep clean or if you’re looking for a move
0:09:50 in, move out, where we’re doing inside fridge and oven, square footage does come into place
0:09:52 when it’s like 2,500 square feet and higher.
0:09:54 So those type of things.
0:09:55 Mostly, it is the flat rate.
0:09:57 What you see there is what you’re going to pay.
0:10:01 And that works out for our clients as well because they don’t feel like if you’re doing
0:10:04 the hourly rate, they may feel like we’re trying to milk the clock, but also it helps us with
0:10:05 our cleaners as well.
0:10:09 So we don’t have to worry about them or anyone attempting to milk the clock while they’re cleaning
0:10:10 as well.
0:10:13 So our clients know once we get there, that’s the price.
0:10:16 And our cleaners know once you get there, that’s the price that you’re going to make.
0:10:20 So if you finish it really well and you do the job well, that’s what you’re getting paid.
0:10:23 If you want to take your time, that’s totally fine because you’re getting paid the same rate.
0:10:24 The owner’s going to pay the same rate as well.
0:10:28 Do you ever roll up to a house or have one of your cleaners roll up to the house and be
0:10:29 like, no way.
0:10:32 There’s no way I’m getting out of here and making any sort of money.
0:10:33 This is going to take days.
0:10:35 We have a very open relationship.
0:10:40 So if they get somewhere and it’s more than what the client had put on the booking form,
0:10:42 because all these homes are sight unseen.
0:10:44 All of our clients are booking us online.
0:10:48 So we go by their word, but we tell our contractors, you’re our eyes and ears.
0:10:51 If you get there and it’s not what it says, we need to know.
0:10:56 So we’ve had that happen and we have them send us pictures and we have the conversation
0:10:59 with the client of like, you know, this is more than what was said.
0:11:00 You know, this is what the price will be.
0:11:01 Yes or no.
0:11:02 And that’s how we proceed.
0:11:07 And even with that flat rate pricing, we have an asterisk that says this is for the
0:11:11 average house that’s normally cleaned up on a periodic basis.
0:11:15 So if we get to the home, we have the right to give you a new pricing based on the conditions
0:11:19 that we see and you have the right to decline the service at that time, which is totally fine.
0:11:22 But that’s why we tell them as soon as we get there so that it’s not like we’re cleaning
0:11:25 and then four hours and they’re like, yeah, no, I don’t want you to, I don’t want to pay
0:11:26 that.
0:11:31 So you’re kind of building this informal Rolodex of cleaners who have agreed to, you know,
0:11:35 open up their schedule or be open to extra bookings at this price flip.
0:11:40 And then you go about the marketing stuff for the clients.
0:11:41 Tell me about that.
0:11:43 Tell me about how you guys found your first bookings.
0:11:44 Oh, yeah.
0:11:46 So our first booking was from Thumbtack.
0:11:46 Yeah.
0:11:49 And we got, we got them on Thanksgiving Day?
0:11:51 The day after.
0:11:53 The day after Thanksgiving, Black Friday, we were with family.
0:11:56 And one thing about Thumbtack, it’s very hands on.
0:11:59 You have to have, you have to nurture the client multiple times.
0:12:03 And we tell our students very early on, get as many reviews as you can.
0:12:05 Try to do free cleaners for family and friends.
0:12:09 So that by the time you start paying for marketing, you already have some initial reviews there.
0:12:11 So on Thumbtack, you got to nurture the client.
0:12:13 You got to massage the conversation.
0:12:19 And then also early on, we priced ourselves a little bit lower so that we can start getting bookings on those platforms as well.
0:12:22 First booking came in on Black Friday.
0:12:27 And we had a contractor ready for the job night before she says she can’t make it.
0:12:28 Of course.
0:12:30 Why wouldn’t, why would the first thing be easy?
0:12:35 So we went into like a group out here in Dallas that has cleaners.
0:12:37 And we said, hey, we need assistance.
0:12:39 Can anybody take this job tomorrow morning?
0:12:44 And we found someone who ended up working with us as a contractor who was able to go to the job.
0:12:46 And she did a great job.
0:12:49 This first job actually had a farm in their backyard.
0:12:49 Yeah.
0:12:52 Which was just like, what?
0:12:56 She was like, yeah, they have like pigs back there and like four or five dogs.
0:12:57 So the place is very hairy.
0:12:58 Well, she said a pig sty.
0:12:59 And we was like, oh, it’s dirty.
0:13:00 Yeah, I thought she was funny.
0:13:02 Literally, it’s a pig sty.
0:13:03 I was like, what?
0:13:05 But she got the job done.
0:13:07 And that’s how that first job went.
0:13:13 But we’ve had other jobs at the beginning that like somebody, it was a married couple.
0:13:13 They got into an argument.
0:13:15 Somebody left somebody on the side of the road.
0:13:16 Yeah.
0:13:19 We actually went and did that one.
0:13:23 Luckily, that was kind of just a quick, they were just taking pictures.
0:13:25 So we just have to kind of like wipe down and sweep and mob.
0:13:28 And we got that client from next door too.
0:13:28 Right.
0:13:34 So those were, we’ve, in our total, we’ve, we’ve done about 2,700 bookings.
0:13:36 And we’ve cleaned three homes ourselves.
0:13:36 Yeah.
0:13:38 And that was way at the beginning.
0:13:42 At this point, if someone can’t make it, we would just reschedule the client.
0:13:48 Versus early on to say like, all right, well, I can’t find anybody to get it done.
0:13:51 So I’m going to go and roll up my sleeves and do it myself.
0:13:52 Yeah.
0:13:55 We did those three bookings on one weekend and then we was like, uh-uh.
0:14:00 Because early on, you’re, you’re very nervous about your reputation and your, the reviews
0:14:00 you’re going to get.
0:14:03 So you want to be mindful of that early on.
0:14:05 But now, you know, worse, we’ve gotten negative reviews.
0:14:07 Most of our reviews are five-star reviews.
0:14:09 We get a one or three-star here and there, which we understand.
0:14:12 But people like to threaten you with reviews, we realize.
0:14:15 So we’re at the point where we’re not going to be threatened or bullied because you wanted
0:14:18 a specific thing that we weren’t able to accommodate.
0:14:23 But we try to live by the business model that customers are always right unless they’re wrong.
0:14:25 And we try to convey that in the nicest way possible.
0:14:31 So Thumbtack is kind of a pay-to-bid type of platform, right?
0:14:34 So somebody will come on and say, I need a cleaner for this date.
0:14:37 And then you will say, okay, I can, I want to bid on this job.
0:14:38 Yeah.
0:14:42 And Thumbtack, you pay based on the qualifications of the lead.
0:14:47 So if they want a larger home and they want it to be a reoccurring booking, Thumbtack is
0:14:48 going to make you pay more.
0:14:51 And their mindset is that you’re going to pay more for this booking because you’re going
0:14:53 to make more money if you do book the service.
0:14:55 But also now you have their contact information.
0:14:58 They actually do book reoccurring services.
0:15:02 It kind of gets pricey pretty quickly, especially with people who just, there’s a lot of tire
0:15:03 kickers on there.
0:15:07 So you can kind of rack up some serious money just trying to get leads on Thumbtack.
0:15:12 So that’s one of the reasons why we left that platform very early on within like six months.
0:15:17 But our oldest client is actually, our longest tenured client is actually from Thumbtack.
0:15:17 Yeah.
0:15:21 Their home’s been cleaned every week for three years now, every single week.
0:15:22 Wow.
0:15:23 So it actually worked out.
0:15:25 Very worthwhile to pay for that lead.
0:15:26 Yeah.
0:15:27 Yeah.
0:15:30 Chris kind of mentioned the same thing in our last conversation with him.
0:15:35 I want to say last summer where Thumbtack is, maybe that ship has sailed a little bit.
0:15:38 It’s a little bit more difficult to kind of get a toehold in as they’ve adjusted their pricing.
0:15:41 But Nextdoor, you mentioned, is another channel.
0:15:42 What’s worked on there?
0:15:45 So Nextdoor, you get a lot of people who are just in the neighborhood.
0:15:47 Nextdoor is a neighborhood platform.
0:15:51 Nextdoor is just a bunch of neighbors just talking about what’s happening in their community.
0:15:54 So you’ll get things from, I’m looking for a recommendation for a restaurant to, I’m looking
0:15:57 for a recommendation for a handyman and a cleaner.
0:16:01 So normally that happens that people will just be on that platform looking for cleaners.
0:16:02 What do you, who do you recommend?
0:16:04 And then it starts talking about pricing.
0:16:07 If you’re just pretty accommodating to answer their questions, they’ll book with you, but
0:16:12 you got to just be on the platform pretty frequently and available to answer any questions that come
0:16:12 up.
0:16:16 And also on there, you hear sometimes they say like, oh, my cleaner is looking for more
0:16:17 work.
0:16:18 Does anybody have it?
0:16:20 And so that is something that we look out for as well.
0:16:20 Yeah.
0:16:22 Because then we’re like, oh, we can make them a contractor.
0:16:23 Let’s see.
0:16:25 Let’s see what’s their availability.
0:16:26 Let’s reach out to them.
0:16:29 So that’s another way that Nextdoor can be used.
0:16:30 I actually just recently did that.
0:16:32 Someone said that the cleaner wanted more work.
0:16:34 So I asked for the contact information.
0:16:36 I haven’t followed up with them regarding a sidetrack.
0:16:39 But like I said, that’s a great place to find cleaners and work.
0:16:42 It just requires a little bit more availability.
0:16:46 Anything else on the marketing front to connect to 2,700 bookings?
0:16:48 Where are all these people finding you?
0:16:53 Anthony and Janilka’s response to that, plus how they’re collecting positive customer reviews
0:16:55 and hiring help to answer the phones right after this.
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0:18:07 One strategy I didn’t fully embrace or maybe wasn’t fully aware of when I was starting out
0:18:09 was this idea of the piggyback principle.
0:18:13 In the startup phase, that means you don’t have to start completely from scratch, but instead
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0:19:13 Oh, yeah.
0:19:16 Our biggest one today is Yelp and SEO.
0:19:20 And I know that some people are indifferent with Yelp, but it’s helped us tremendously.
0:19:22 So that is where it goes.
0:19:23 And then SEO.
0:19:23 Yelp.
0:19:26 And also to go back to Yelp, it depends on your market too.
0:19:29 We got people in Dallas who, you know, who love Yelp.
0:19:33 We got people in other places of the country who absolutely hate Yelp.
0:19:37 And my thing is, I would say just try all marketing platforms, just see what sticks for you.
0:19:44 And then we also did Google Ads very early on, which was very, it took up a lot of time and money.
0:19:45 We weren’t ready for that.
0:19:48 So we’re going to actually go back to Google Ads probably sometime this year.
0:19:56 But SEO, search engine optimization, we’ve been cranking out leads from people just finding us organically on Google for three years now.
0:20:04 It took us three, we actually use a, actually a company for SEO, but it took us three years to kind of get to where we are with the SEO marketing.
0:20:10 So now we’re ranking on the first page for a lot of keywords, maids, Dallas, cleaning Dallas, things like that.
0:20:14 So people just find us just by typing in those, those keys.
0:20:18 I want to talk about that for a second because Dallas, it’s not a small city.
0:20:21 We’re talking like 7 billion people, one of the biggest cities, you know, in the country.
0:20:28 I imagine there were already a handful of well-established cleaning service, number one, like well-entrenched competition.
0:20:37 And number two, it seems like that’s, I guess, why go after cleaning business Dallas or maid service Dallas versus, you know, Arlington or Frisco.
0:20:40 Or like trying to pick off like some of these, like maybe slightly smaller suburbs.
0:20:44 Oh yeah, so we started with the suburbs early on.
0:20:51 So that’s kind of how we got our footing in some traffic because when we first started with SEO, it was like, there’s no way you’re going to be able to dominate Dallas, which we still aren’t.
0:20:55 We’re on the first page with keywords, but just, it just depends on the keyword.
0:20:59 But we started with some of the smaller areas, Richardson, Plano is actually a huge market.
0:21:01 And we didn’t know that until we started doing SEO.
0:21:05 And it was like, yeah, you might want to just focus on Plano instead of trying to focus on Dallas.
0:21:10 So we kind of went to Garland, Richardson, Plano, Arlington, Grand Prairie.
0:21:13 So we went around the suburbs of Dallas before we started focusing more on Dallas.
0:21:17 But now like 90% of our jobs are in Dallas though.
0:21:18 Yeah, that’s interesting.
0:21:23 We had a guy who was doing web development out of Phoenix or actually a suburb of Phoenix.
0:21:31 And so that was his like, don’t try and go for like, you know, the whole metro, like try and find this little sub neighborhood that you’re a part of.
0:21:33 Because people might be looking for that local stuff.
0:21:37 Is that a factor of being on Google My Business?
0:21:39 Like what else is working local SEO wise?
0:21:43 The thing about our physical location is that we’re located in Dallas.
0:21:46 So area that we’re in is pretty centralized to Dallas.
0:21:51 So being on Google My Business, when you’re in a Google map, you type in cleaning service near me.
0:21:52 Guess who pops up?
0:21:54 Because we’re in Dallas as well.
0:21:56 So that helps us a ton.
0:21:57 And we try to keep those pictures updated.
0:22:00 That’s another one that brings us free marketing.
0:22:02 We try to keep our pictures updated, our hours updated.
0:22:04 So before and afters.
0:22:09 And it helps us in our rankings because they’ll see last updated, you know, this week or last week.
0:22:11 So they know we’re a live cleaning business as well.
0:22:12 So that helps a ton.
0:22:13 Oh, okay.
0:22:14 Interesting.
0:22:19 So there is some element that’s less set it and forget it, but just, you know, kind of keep it clean, so to speak.
0:22:19 Keep it up to date.
0:22:20 Yeah.
0:22:26 So anytime there’s a new blog that goes up, anyone who searched for our pictures, they may get in a little alert or something like that.
0:22:27 So it does help.
0:22:31 Where do you prioritize sending customers for reviews?
0:22:34 Because Thumbtack has a review platform.
0:22:35 Yelp is obviously a huge review platform.
0:22:37 Google has their own review platform.
0:22:39 Facebook has their own review platform.
0:22:41 Where do you, where do you prioritize that?
0:22:46 So we don’t send anyone to Thumbtack anymore because we’re not on it anymore.
0:22:49 And we got a good 70, I think it’s like 60, 70 reviews.
0:22:50 Yeah, we have a good amount there.
0:22:52 So we don’t send anybody there now.
0:22:55 So our priority is Googling Yelp.
0:23:01 And we did do, we haven’t pumped Facebook as much, but we have done that as well because we’ve booked clients from Facebook.
0:23:04 But Googling Yelp, but it really depends with Yelp.
0:23:09 I say definitely Google because anyone that has a Gmail can leave the review.
0:23:14 With Yelp, you have to basically be a Yelper for it to stick.
0:23:15 A Yelper.
0:23:21 You can leave the review, but it would not show up basically for everyone to see.
0:23:22 Like we can see if you left it.
0:23:28 But if it’s the first time you made an account and you don’t have any friends or pictures and this is your first review, it’s not going to stick.
0:23:39 So instead of having to know for a fact who has Yelp and who doesn’t, we really push Google more than anything else because there’s no question there that it’s definitely going to go up regardless.
0:23:43 So when you’re asking for reviews on especially Yelp, they got to have a few things.
0:23:45 So they got to have a picture.
0:23:46 They got to have a profile.
0:23:50 They have to have friends and they also have to have left reviews before.
0:23:50 Yeah.
0:23:54 So those are four key criteria for a person to kind of leave reviews on Yelp.
0:23:55 Yeah.
0:24:00 Because we have over 80 reviews and only 50 of them still are showing.
0:24:01 Yeah.
0:24:03 So we can see the other 30, but you can’t.
0:24:04 But your clients can’t.
0:24:07 And they say non-verified reviews or something like that.
0:24:11 So when you’re looking for reviews, I would say stick to Google.
0:24:15 But if you think people don’t leave them on Yelp and they’re a Yelper, then go for it.
0:24:17 Sometimes we just ask for both.
0:24:18 Gotcha.
0:24:19 That makes sense.
0:24:19 Yeah.
0:24:21 I didn’t realize all that stuff about Yelp.
0:24:24 That’s, I mean, they’re trying to protect their platform.
0:24:27 And if it’s your first review, you come here five stars.
0:24:31 Well, yeah, clearly you have some connection to these people, you know, but that’s interesting.
0:24:37 I focus on the Google stuff because that will be visible and helps dominate those local near
0:24:38 me types of searches.
0:24:40 Anything else on the marketing front?
0:24:41 This is, this is all great.
0:24:45 I would say with the Google reviews, that’s to go back to that, that’s important too, because
0:24:48 when you do search for the review, we search for the cleaning business.
0:24:51 They got this thing called the local service pack.
0:24:54 Where local services can be featured on the top of Google.
0:24:58 If you have a certain amount of reviews and you apply for it, that’s a paid platform as
0:24:59 well.
0:25:03 But that gets you to the top of the Google ads so that people can say, all right, well, my
0:25:06 three choices are these three businesses who has the most reviews.
0:25:07 So that, that goes a long way too.
0:25:08 Yeah.
0:25:10 There’s some social proof in there for sure.
0:25:11 Oh yeah.
0:25:13 Tell me, and this is a cool, so I’m on maidstomatch.com.
0:25:16 There’s like these cool sliders that say, well, how many bedrooms do you have?
0:25:17 Where are you located?
0:25:20 How do you want to sign up for, you know, weekly, every two weeks?
0:25:21 That’s very cool.
0:25:27 Like what happens after somebody goes through this kind of online booking process?
0:25:31 Let’s just say I fill this in and I want to sign up.
0:25:31 What happens next?
0:25:36 So once they book, we get an email saying that a client booked, they get an email saying that
0:25:38 they booked the service.
0:25:43 And we basically see the time and day and we would reach out to our contractors saying,
0:25:48 hey, we have a two bedroom, two bathroom in Frisco on Friday with arrival 8 to 10 a.m.
0:25:49 Do you want it?
0:25:51 That’s basically how it goes depending on the availability.
0:25:52 They say yes or no.
0:25:54 We assign it to the contractor.
0:25:59 Then the client gets an email saying that like this confirms your clinic.
0:26:02 Because when you book, it doesn’t really confirm that we’re going to come out, but it just says
0:26:03 like, okay, we got it.
0:26:04 We received it.
0:26:04 We received it.
0:26:07 So then they get an email saying that it’s confirmed.
0:26:09 Was that invite to the contractor?
0:26:10 Was that a one-on-one?
0:26:13 Like you sent that to them or was that some like automated system?
0:26:14 That’s through the platform.
0:26:15 That’s through the platform.
0:26:19 In the beginning, we were having to manually just text everyone individually.
0:26:21 So we only had one person, two people.
0:26:22 So yeah.
0:26:25 So we were just texting in a group chat like, hey, this is what we have.
0:26:29 But now through the platform, we just kind of send a blast and kind of whoever answers
0:26:31 first would get the job.
0:26:34 And they could say if they, yes, if they want it or no, and it will get an email saying
0:26:35 this person wants this job.
0:26:35 Yeah.
0:26:37 And then we make a decision there.
0:26:39 So you’re having about eight to 10 contractors.
0:26:40 It makes that process a lot easier.
0:26:45 Early on, we didn’t mind sending a text here and there, but now that we got, you know, so
0:26:45 many, we’re still growing.
0:26:47 We try to automate as much as we can.
0:26:48 Yeah.
0:26:49 That makes sense.
0:26:50 What platform is that?
0:26:51 That’s Launch 27.
0:26:56 And the, like I said, sorry, though, when the client gets a reminder three days before
0:26:59 we come and a day before we come so that they just, you know, let them know we’re
0:27:03 coming, make sure everything is correct with address and everything like that.
0:27:04 And we show up.
0:27:06 And then you show up.
0:27:13 So they pay through the website and you guys take your 40% and pass on 60% to the cleaner.
0:27:15 And then everybody walks away happy.
0:27:17 They pay through the website.
0:27:19 And I think the back end is actually Stripe.
0:27:21 So it’s a platform they’re familiar with.
0:27:23 So it’s not like we’re collecting any money.
0:27:25 We don’t collect money, number one.
0:27:26 So everything goes through the website.
0:27:30 Everything goes through Stripe and then we pay our cleaners every Friday via direct deposit.
0:27:32 And it’s no cash transactions.
0:27:33 Right.
0:27:36 The only cash is if a client gives our cleaner a tip and that’s all there is to keep.
0:27:38 And but they can even put the tip on the website as well.
0:27:39 So.
0:27:39 Okay.
0:27:42 Are you guys, I noticed there’s a phone number on here too.
0:27:46 Are you answering the phones yourself and trying to balance the day jobs and everything
0:27:47 else that goes on?
0:27:54 So we were, we currently, and we’re not, thankfully, we have virtual assistants to do
0:27:54 that.
0:27:58 But we were answering the phones for a good while before we had to like pass it off before
0:28:01 we were running out of meetings and be like, okay, this is becoming too much.
0:28:03 Then we got virtual assistant.
0:28:03 Yeah.
0:28:06 Earlier we weren’t getting that many calls where it was impacting us.
0:28:12 But now we get enough calls where it’d be a nuisance trying to run out between meetings
0:28:13 and picking up the phone.
0:28:15 And we were losing business.
0:28:19 So we want to make sure we answer all those calls because, you know, if someone calls you
0:28:21 and you don’t answer, they go right on to the next person.
0:28:23 And so you could have lost them there.
0:28:23 So.
0:28:26 And they answer our phones Monday through Saturday.
0:28:34 Was that an individual contractor that you found for that answering service or was it a
0:28:37 company that, you know, that was just on their menu of service offerings?
0:28:43 It’s a company that answers for different cleaning businesses, which we recently actually
0:28:44 just bought.
0:28:49 We now have a virtual assistant company less than a month in.
0:28:49 So.
0:28:50 Yeah.
0:28:51 We just started with that.
0:28:55 And yeah, pretty much it helped clean your business owners, run and manage their business
0:28:55 like they helped us.
0:29:00 So opportunity came up and we purchased the business from the previous owners.
0:29:01 So now we have a virtual assistant company.
0:29:02 Oh my gosh.
0:29:05 This is like the, this is like the Rockefeller habit.
0:29:07 Like, you know, why am I going to pay a profit to somebody else?
0:29:08 I’ll just bring this in house.
0:29:11 And you’re like, we got side hustles on side hustles.
0:29:12 Yeah.
0:29:17 This is going to be a fun one because we knew, we knew the value that they were bringing and
0:29:20 we were like, we can’t let this company just, you know, because they were going to close
0:29:20 it.
0:29:21 We said, we can’t let this company close.
0:29:27 So I kind of did my diligence and started hitting up the owners and texting them and calling them
0:29:30 because we also had a relationship with the owner, the owners as well.
0:29:32 It was like, we don’t want you guys to close this business.
0:29:33 We want, am I taking it over?
0:29:34 What can we work out?
0:29:37 We worked it out and now we’re running this business as well.
0:29:45 With the automations and assistance that you have in place, what kind of time does it take
0:29:47 on a, on a daily, weekly basis to run this thing?
0:29:48 Early on, it was a lot.
0:29:49 Yeah.
0:29:50 Early on, it was way more.
0:29:55 Now, if I had to put it all together, just the amount of time I may speak to a contractor
0:29:57 just for the week, I don’t know.
0:29:58 I’ll probably say an hour, hour and a half.
0:30:03 I’m not sure if it is even that much, but one time we measured it, like we were literally
0:30:04 doing it by the second.
0:30:08 Each time we spoke to someone that said yes or no, and like on a Saturday, I think we
0:30:11 had like five or six bookings and it came out to be like 12 minutes.
0:30:15 It really doesn’t take that much out of our day at this point, at least.
0:30:19 That’s, and that’s also, that’s just the labor you do, but you think about the business and
0:30:23 you talk about it so much, but in terms of just physically being in the business, less
0:30:25 than an hour a week, but we’re always talking about it.
0:30:27 We’re always thinking about something.
0:30:31 So it feels like it’s a lot more than that, but like labor, it’s literally just an hour a
0:30:32 week, if that.
0:30:33 That’s awesome.
0:30:34 I’m excited for what you guys have built.
0:30:39 Any surprises along the way or things you wish you’d known starting out?
0:30:41 What would we have done earlier?
0:30:42 We say we would have done SEO earlier.
0:30:47 Especially because we had the revenue, not even from this business, but we also were saving
0:30:47 up money.
0:30:49 So we had the ability to do it.
0:30:49 Right.
0:30:51 But we just didn’t do it early on.
0:30:53 So yeah, we didn’t start SEO until like six, seven months in.
0:30:55 We would have done that.
0:30:59 A big surprise that we had, which I guess it depends on the state, is we weren’t charging
0:31:00 sale taxes.
0:31:07 And so the government made it very clear that they wanted their money right away.
0:31:09 And we started charging sale tax.
0:31:10 We didn’t know that we had to.
0:31:12 So we did see other businesses have it.
0:31:16 But we’re like, oh, we’ll just do a flat rate so that we can stand out.
0:31:20 And then we got an accountant and she was like, oh, no, it’s not an option for you where
0:31:20 you live.
0:31:22 You have to charge it.
0:31:23 We’re like, oh, OK.
0:31:28 So a year and a half into the business and we had to pay like all of that.
0:31:29 So, yeah.
0:31:33 But again, we weren’t taking out a profit from the business.
0:31:37 We were just putting it all in an account for taxes or whatever.
0:31:38 And so we had to cut the check.
0:31:39 It was like, OK, that’s fine.
0:31:40 Yeah.
0:31:41 We just won’t do it again.
0:31:42 That was a big surprise.
0:31:44 And that was one of our biggest surprises.
0:31:47 Other than that, I don’t know if there was anything else.
0:31:47 Yeah.
0:31:48 That stuck with us.
0:31:50 Hire someone early.
0:31:51 Yeah.
0:31:52 Yeah.
0:31:53 Those surprises are the worst.
0:31:56 I got a note from the city of Livermore.
0:32:02 It was like, you owe us, you know, three years of back taxes for like home use of your business.
0:32:04 It was like some ridiculous made up thing.
0:32:07 And I was like, what, you know, what is this for?
0:32:09 And it was a time when the business wasn’t doing so well.
0:32:12 It’s just, you know, I never you never want to get those.
0:32:18 I’m always nervous when I get a letter that says like, you know, return address, IRS or something like, oh, this is not good.
0:32:20 They did the same thing for us.
0:32:23 The amount that they said, I don’t even remember, was something outrageous.
0:32:25 And it’s like, we need it in like a week.
0:32:28 And we’re like, well, when we finally spoke to them, like, how did you get this number?
0:32:32 They’re like, oh, well, we estimate what other people around you are usually making with the business.
0:32:33 So we’re not really sure.
0:32:34 We’re only a year in.
0:32:35 So how did you get this number?
0:32:37 And we’re like, no, that’s not what we made.
0:32:39 They’re like, oh, OK, it can be adjusted.
0:32:40 Oh, thanks.
0:32:42 We would have sent them a huge check.
0:32:42 Yeah.
0:32:43 They would have kept it.
0:32:48 That was like, oh, no, we got that squared away.
0:32:52 So I guess another thing would have been hiring an accountant earlier or at least someone to look at the books.
0:32:54 It doesn’t have to be an accountant or a CPA.
0:32:55 Just someone overlooked the books for you.
0:32:57 Probably something we would have done earlier.
0:33:01 Yeah, all of that, you know, legal back office stuff.
0:33:02 It’s so time consuming.
0:33:06 It’s so frustrating because you’re like, this has nothing to do with the operations.
0:33:16 But on the other hand, it kind of does because that’s what separates, you know, the people that you’re hiring to do the cleaning from you guys is that existing infrastructure and everything in place.
0:33:18 But what else is coming down the road?
0:33:19 What are you guys excited about for this year?
0:33:22 We’re really trying to scale the business.
0:33:24 So we’ve said that usually.
0:33:28 But now we’re at a point we recognize, OK, we put more money into marketing.
0:33:30 We get more clients.
0:33:31 It’s just simple math.
0:33:36 And so we’re really trying to bring on more contractors to continue to grow.
0:33:39 Like last month, we did our highest month ever.
0:33:39 And then.
0:33:41 Thank you.
0:33:41 So we’re looking.
0:33:43 And then this month would have been higher than last month.
0:33:46 January would have been higher than the month than January.
0:33:48 Sorry, January was the highest month ever.
0:33:51 And then February would have been high, but we had to close down for a week because of the storm.
0:33:53 So that show does.
0:33:56 But then like last week, we did our highest week ever.
0:33:57 It just keeps growing.
0:34:01 So we’re like, we really need to get more contractors in here to continue to grow our business.
0:34:03 We want to do like 40K a month.
0:34:06 Right now we are between like 20 to 25K a month with sales.
0:34:08 So we want to continue to scale that.
0:34:10 And that’s our big focus.
0:34:15 And then also bringing in, maybe hiring people to kind of help us scale or people to help us run the business.
0:34:20 Because I know right now we can both do it and have our, you know, nine to fives and things in all these other businesses.
0:34:21 But we need help.
0:34:26 So that’s going to be our big thing for 2021 to elevate it and bring help in as well.
0:34:30 And, you know, another part of our business is that we, as we mentioned,
0:34:33 we sell courses on how to get your business up and running.
0:34:36 And then we have a community where we help people to do it as well.
0:34:42 So that’s another thing that it’s not necessarily the cleaning business, but it’s still part of, and it’s an extension of it, basically.
0:34:44 That’s a huge part of it, too.
0:34:44 Yeah.
0:34:49 So growing that is, that’s some of the stuff that we’re looking forward to this year.
0:34:50 Yeah.
0:34:52 You guys have a lot going on.
0:34:53 There’s no question about that.
0:34:56 I mean, do you see, like, we’re just going to dominate Dallas?
0:34:59 Or do you see this, like, mates-to-match brand going national at some point?
0:35:08 No, I’m saying we toy with that, but we think that we need to excel at the Dallas one first before we even think about franchising anywhere else.
0:35:14 Like, at least get it to a point where we want it to be, and then we can consider anything other places.
0:35:19 Yeah, our SEO guy, he’s like, you guys are bringing enough traffic where you can start thinking about other locations.
0:35:23 Because, like, Dallas may take a long time to get to one, two, or three.
0:35:24 So you guys are dominating those suburbs.
0:35:29 He’s like, we can still focus on Dallas or maybe start moving to other cities where you guys can start focusing on.
0:35:31 So it’s an option.
0:35:33 You never know.
0:35:35 People ask us all the time, do you want to do a franchise?
0:35:38 And, like, we have no idea what that looks like.
0:35:42 Let us focus on what we’re doing right now, and we’ll figure that apart out later if it does come up.
0:35:53 Yeah, well, this is a really cool example of one of these really fragmented businesses where there’s no dominant, you know, regional, definitely national, but, you know, there’s no dominant player.
0:36:07 They’re the go-to brand for that, and so there’s an opportunity for you guys to come in, present a well-thought-out, easy-to-use interface, you know, for the customer side of things, and really perform well in a pretty short period of time.
0:36:13 So I think it’s one that’s replicable, repeatable, not just in cleaning, but in any number of local services.
0:36:15 So I’m really excited for what you guys have built.
0:36:20 At the Hartremoni, which is a play on the last name, you find them over on Instagram there.
0:36:25 Anthony and Janilka, thanks so much for taking the time to share the ins and outs of this thing.
0:36:30 Let’s wrap this up with a couple number one tips for Side Hustle Nation here.
0:36:39 So number one tip for me would be, it may sound cliche, but keep going because you never know what’s on the other side of that quitting factor.
0:36:42 Early on, you know, we were about seven months in.
0:36:43 We had a dry summer.
0:36:46 We was like, it’s not worth it, the time commitment.
0:36:48 And we were like, we were right on the edge of quitting.
0:36:51 And that August, we boosted up.
0:36:52 Our numbers doubled out of nowhere.
0:36:54 No new marketing, nothing.
0:36:55 It just doubled.
0:36:56 And we just kept going from there.
0:36:59 So if we were to quit, we would have never known where we would have been today.
0:37:02 We wouldn’t have been able to help as many people as we have so far.
0:37:02 So keep going.
0:37:10 My tip would be, at least with Side Hustling, pick something that I think is flexible and maybe something that you’re good at as well.
0:37:15 So I know like one of the Side Hustles that I’ve done, you know, I’m a mental health therapist.
0:37:17 I started to do therapy online.
0:37:20 Like I know sometimes people think this is an extension of their career.
0:37:22 It’s not a Side Hustle, but it is.
0:37:24 You know, it’s not necessarily your nine to five.
0:37:30 So if there’s something that you enjoy doing and if there’s something that’s flexible and doesn’t cause, you know, stress, then go for it.
0:37:31 I like it, guys.
0:37:33 Thanks again for joining me.
0:37:34 Awesome story.
0:37:36 I’m excited to see what you guys will continue to build over there.
0:37:38 And hopefully we’ll be able to keep in touch.
0:37:39 So thanks so much.
0:37:40 And we’ll catch up soon.
0:37:42 Thank you for having us.
0:37:42 Enjoy.
0:37:48 I think this is a really cool business model.
0:37:57 It’s almost like drop shipping for physical products where you don’t buy the inventory until you’ve gotten paid by the customer or Anthony and Janilka.
0:38:01 The way they have it set up, they don’t pay for the labor until they’ve got a booked job.
0:38:05 And that makes for a very flexible, low risk type of setup.
0:38:06 All right.
0:38:07 Takeaways from this episode.
0:38:09 A couple of things stood out.
0:38:17 The first was building relationships with existing cleaners or cleaning crews who might be interested in picking up more jobs.
0:38:30 If you’re a service provider and someone comes and offers you more work that you didn’t have to go out and market for yourself, you didn’t have to sell it, and the compensation is in line with what you’d like to earn, I think that’s going to be compelling.
0:38:32 That was number one for me.
0:38:43 The bigger challenge here is on the customer marketing side of things, especially trying to gain a toehold in a market that already has established players, which is probably going to be just about any market, right?
0:38:54 But if Anthony and Janilka can make it work in Dallas, which obviously had a ton of cleaning services already, it’s something that can probably be replicated where you are.
0:38:58 From the sounds of it, there were a couple of things going on at once.
0:39:02 There was this listening aspect, trying to be where customers are.
0:39:14 They mentioned Thumbtack, Nextdoor, Google Ads early on, trying to build up some positive feedback and reviews, enough social proof and credibility where it becomes easier for customers to give you a chance.
0:39:15 You’re no longer this unknown quantity.
0:39:20 The second thing was reinvesting in organic SEO, local SEO.
0:39:27 This is something that they mentioned they’d been doing for a couple years, but are really only recently starting to see the full impact of.
0:39:33 And I wanted to call attention to that because it can be a very long game, especially in a big metro market like this.
0:39:45 Smaller town, you’re going to have a much shorter road to getting on that first page, but it’s a slog to climb the ranks and then all of a sudden you hit that first page and the floodgates are open.
0:39:49 I thought the comparison between Google reviews and Yelp reviews was really interesting.
0:39:55 And I’m kind of in the same camp, like prioritize those Google My Business reviews for maximum visibility.
0:40:01 Because oftentimes that person’s search is going to begin on Google and not Yelp and Google is going to prioritize those.
0:40:05 Inside your company dashboard in Google My Business, there should be a direct link.
0:40:17 And send people to ask them to leave a review, which was a tip Matt Raul shared as something that really helped his knife sharpening business gain over 100 reviews in, I want to say, less than a year.
0:40:32 So if you can bake some sort of feedback loop like that into your process for a local business, I think you’ll start to see some real positive results in Google, which becomes self-perpetuating in a way, as long as the service remains good and customers stay happy.
0:40:40 But once again, you’ll find the full text summary of this episode, along with all the links to the resources mentioned at SideHustleNation.com slash clean2.
0:40:50 While you’re there, I put together a free bonus download of 101 service business ideas that you might be able to apply Anthony and Janilka’s strategy to.
0:40:57 Once again, that’s at SideHustleNation.com slash clean2 or through the link in the episode description of your podcast player app.
0:41:04 Now let’s fast forward, jump in the time machine, and catch up with present day Anthony after a quick word from our sponsors.
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0:43:26 All right, Anthony, it’s been four years.
0:43:32 A lot has happened in the Maids to Match business, closing in on $3 million in lifetime revenue.
0:43:33 Catch us up.
0:43:36 What have been some of the biggest shifts since we last recorded?
0:43:40 Yeah, last time we spoke, our cleaning business was around $20,000, $25,000.
0:43:42 That was a couple years ago.
0:43:46 Now, we normally close out between about $45,000, $50,000, $60,000.
0:43:51 So, it’s been a lot of adjustments and a lot of life during that time.
0:43:56 We had two daughters since then, which means that we had to take our foot off the gas on certain businesses.
0:44:02 But the good thing is that right when we had our first daughter, Alani, we hired an operations manager to run our business.
0:44:09 And she has ran it successfully since then, which gave us a lot more time back to do and have conversations like these.
0:44:11 Yeah, that’s fantastic.
0:44:13 Congrats on the new additions to the family.
0:44:20 And congrats on, it sounds like, removing yourself from a lot of the day-to-day and inserting a manager in your place.
0:44:22 What do you look for in an ops manager?
0:44:26 There’s a certain revenue milestone or someplace you’ve got to be at.
0:44:30 You’ve got to have some margin available to hire somebody, to be able to pay somebody to do this role.
0:44:37 Talk to me through that because it’s always like, well, if I hire somebody to do it, then there’s not that much left over.
0:44:39 But, you know, there’s trade-offs.
0:44:40 I had the same mindset when we first started.
0:44:45 And I think a lot of the trade-off is, what do you value more in that season that you’re in?
0:44:50 As entrepreneurs, we always say we want more money, but we don’t start businesses to get more money.
0:44:52 We start businesses to get our time back.
0:45:00 But as entrepreneurs, you realize that you trade in a 40-hour workweek for an 80-hour workweek as an entrepreneur, leaving a 9-to-5.
0:45:06 So when we first had this conversation, we knew we were about to have a kid, so our time was going to be extremely limited.
0:45:10 So one of the first things we did was we go where a lot of people go, overseas, right?
0:45:16 You could find very qualified candidates on outwork.com, onlinejobs.ph.
0:45:24 Fortunately enough for us, our operation manager came as a referral from a previous business venture that we had with virtual assistants.
0:45:28 So she worked out of Jamaica, and I think her first salary was maybe about $8 an hour.
0:45:39 So we said, you know, if we pay ourselves $20, $30, $40, $50 an hour, if we gave somebody, you know, $9, $10, we should have plenty of cushion for us to at least get a couple hours back.
0:45:40 Got it.
0:45:42 And you don’t have to jump in and hire someone with 40 hours straight.
0:45:44 You could just do part-time.
0:45:46 And we just knew we needed someone since we had the baby.
0:45:48 Is she answering the phones for you?
0:45:52 Is she, you know, playing puppet master and saying, okay, this crew needs to go over here?
0:45:55 Like, there’s a lot of moving parts to this business, plus customer support and all that.
0:45:56 Absolutely.
0:45:57 Well, when we first started, she handled everything.
0:46:04 So we knew the biggest thing we wanted to get off our plate was the customer service, because that took most of the time, especially since we had nine to five jobs.
0:46:06 We handed her over the customer service.
0:46:08 So that could be new inquiries.
0:46:09 That could be client complaints.
0:46:10 That could be challenges.
0:46:13 And then also the hiring aspect as well.
0:46:15 So what crew is going to show up?
0:46:19 What time she became essentially the person that’s moving all the pieces into the right places?
0:46:23 As long as she needed us, we were there in the background for her to support her.
0:46:28 Any tools in tech that you like to use or have her use to manage all those pieces?
0:46:29 Yeah.
0:46:32 So one of the things that we used from the very beginning was Slack.
0:46:36 We created communication channels in Slack and then also WhatsApp for our cleaners.
0:46:38 So we maintain communication there.
0:46:43 But then also we use a platform called Basecamp, which is a project management tool.
0:46:49 So Basecamp allowed us to have all of our documentation, all of our SOPs, all of our conversations inside of one place.
0:46:52 So whenever she needed to pull it, she would go use that.
0:47:03 And also a big platform that we use was Launch 27 when we first started, which is a booking platform for essentially local service businesses where clients can book you online, pay you online, and also find you online.
0:47:06 And you can also manage your cleaner’s pay and things like that in there.
0:47:07 Oh, okay.
0:47:07 I didn’t know that one.
0:47:12 Jobber has come up from time to time as like a dispatch all in one.
0:47:13 Jobber is another big one.
0:47:15 Book and Koala, Zenmaid.
0:47:16 Yep.
0:47:17 All of them are pretty much the same thing.
0:47:22 Now we actually create our own, which is called Tidy Track, which we decided to bring everything in-house.
0:47:24 And now we just use that platform.
0:47:24 Oh, okay.
0:47:25 Dang.
0:47:26 Scratch your own itch.
0:47:27 Develop your own tool.
0:47:27 Yep.
0:47:29 That was exactly what it was.
0:47:33 We had all these different platforms, email, text, phone numbers.
0:47:37 And we just said, you know, we could use this to create our own CRM and we have everything inside of it.
0:47:40 Now you’re operating in a pretty big metro.
0:47:55 And I’m curious about the level of competition or, you know, the next generation of Anthony and Janilkas that are coming in and trying to steal market share or the drop servicing model or this remote cleaning model has become really popular.
0:47:59 So I’m curious your take on that from somebody who, you know, maybe had a little bit of a head start on it.
0:48:08 We definitely had a head start on it, but we have students coming in now and one of our top students, he did a million dollars in two and a half years.
0:48:08 Wow.
0:48:11 And he only operated out of, you know, one city.
0:48:15 So there’s still room for people to come in and do it at a high level.
0:48:18 Our advantage was an early start, but now we have AI.
0:48:22 We’re talking about creating emails, we’re talking about creating flags, we’re talking about creating social media.
0:48:27 There’s so many tools that we didn’t have when we started that people were coming in like, Anthony, you’re a little bit outdated on this.
0:48:28 Now we’re using AI.
0:48:35 We had a virtual assistant company, which is now no longer needed because AI can pick up the phone for you and answer it and book the client.
0:48:37 And we’ve tested this out.
0:48:43 So I think the new competitive advantage is using these AI automation tools, which is going to put you ahead in the competition from day one.
0:48:44 Okay.
0:48:51 For somebody starting today, what are one or two of the effective marketing tactics to try and get new clients, new cleaning customers?
0:48:55 The old handy one I would say focus on is Google local services.
0:48:59 I would still say that because those are people who are more intent based.
0:49:03 They are actually looking for the services versus like we also do Facebook ads.
0:49:06 But most of the time, that’s more interruption based services, right?
0:49:07 You’ll see an ad come up.
0:49:09 It’s like, oh, I might need a cleaning service.
0:49:11 I would always say start with Google local services.
0:49:12 It’s the easiest to manage.
0:49:18 Now, based on your area, it’s going to be a little bit more expensive because it is so user-friendly, easy to manage.
0:49:21 I will also say Google ads would be another one.
0:49:23 It’s more controllable and managed by the user.
0:49:28 But again, since it’s more controlled and managed by you, it’s going to be a little bit harder to use.
0:49:29 It’s not as user-friendly.
0:49:34 So those would be the first ones I’d say to start with Google local services and then probably Google ads.
0:49:40 And then obviously, if you do have a network, it doesn’t hurt to tell people, you know, in the area who you are and what you do always.
0:49:52 Do you see for people with, you know, that profile but zero reviews, there’s like a, well, I got to discount my rates because I’m just trying to get a critical mass of social proof here?
0:49:55 If you want to try to undercut the competition, you absolutely can.
0:49:59 But still, since you have no social proof, it’s going to be really hard to do that.
0:50:05 We got one of our first reviews from someone calling us accidentally because she said five other companies didn’t pick up.
0:50:08 We just happened to be the sixth person that picked up the phone.
0:50:12 And she left us a five-star review without even using our services.
0:50:15 She said, this is the only company that picked up the phone.
0:50:16 They were nice.
0:50:17 They were courteous.
0:50:19 And they allowed me to book online.
0:50:22 And even though I didn’t use them, you know, I’m here to just sing their praises.
0:50:25 And those are things that you can control in your business that you don’t have to worry about.
0:50:26 Yeah.
0:50:28 You know, we talk about being a competition, just picking up the phone, right?
0:50:30 So those are things you can do in the very beginning.
0:50:31 What’s your take on this?
0:50:40 This was an early response to four-hour work week and even the fire movement of, well, everybody wants to have this remote cleaning business.
0:50:45 At a certain point, do we run out of boots on the ground, cleaners doing the actual work?
0:50:50 Like, if you had our time recruiting or finding talent, it’s like, you know, nobody wants to do the dirty work anymore.
0:50:51 Yeah.
0:50:55 Recruitment in any business is the hardest thing you’re going to do.
0:51:00 When I worked my nine-to-five job, it was, we, that was something that we had a recruitment department that I was a part of.
0:51:03 That’s all we did every single day, right?
0:51:09 But when you’re talking about this four-hour work week, it’s a lot more challenging to find people if you’re not willing to put that work in at the very beginning.
0:51:13 One of the things we, we have a mindset around now is always be hiring.
0:51:15 That’s one of our quotes.
0:51:15 That’s one of our mantras.
0:51:17 That’s what we tell our operations manager.
0:51:20 I don’t care how many people we have, always be hiring.
0:51:26 We also tell our students that because I just had a conversation with someone and she’s like, I had five cleaners at one point.
0:51:27 Now I’m down to one.
0:51:29 I was like, what happened during that time?
0:51:30 She’s like, I got comfortable.
0:51:31 I had five.
0:51:31 I thought I was good.
0:51:33 So always be hiring.
0:51:35 Now, will there ever be people that stops cleaning?
0:51:36 I don’t think so.
0:51:43 Unless, you know, someone creates a cleaning robot like in the Jetsons back in the day, there’s always going to be a home that needs to be clean.
0:51:45 There’s always going to need to be a person to do it.
0:51:48 And I don’t see us moving over to robots anytime soon.
0:51:48 Yeah.
0:51:54 It’s one of these you’d imagine, at least in the near term, semi-AI proof businesses or stuff is going to keep getting dirty.
0:51:59 And the robots aren’t yet that sophisticated, although we love our little robot vacuum that goes around.
0:52:03 Yeah, we got the Roombas and stuff like that.
0:52:11 But for actually someone to come in and lift things up, put them down clean under it, there’s always going to be a need for at least people, at least in our generation.
0:52:13 After that, we’ll figure it out.
0:52:14 But we won’t be here then.
0:52:27 Do you see this model of essentially matchmaker where I’m going to be the marketing and administrative arm of this business, build the digital presence, go out and find customers and then find people qualified to do the work?
0:52:31 Have you played around with it in any other niches?
0:52:33 You kind of alluded to the virtual assistant service.
0:52:38 Do you see it working or do you see students applying it in other areas?
0:52:39 Absolutely, man.
0:52:51 The matchmaking market is essentially, I would say around 2008 when Airbnb said, we’re going to put you in a stranger’s home and you don’t know who they are, what they do, and you’re just going to be okay with it.
0:52:53 And during that time, I was like, okay, we could try this.
0:52:57 And then Uber said, we’re going to put you in a stranger’s car and you’re going to be okay with it.
0:53:00 And then obviously there’s going to be levels of protection.
0:53:01 You want to make sure they got reviews.
0:53:02 You want to make sure you do background checks.
0:53:05 You want to make sure you do all of those things that make people feel comfortable.
0:53:08 But we have seen this work in other business models.
0:53:10 For us, we had a virtual assistant business.
0:53:12 It was the same exact thing, right?
0:53:15 Another business model we’ve seen was mobile massages.
0:53:18 That was another one we’ve seen what was pretty interesting.
0:53:25 Another one we saw was, it was another version of a daycare where assisted home living is another one we’re seeing people doing.
0:53:28 I’ve seen it go as far as medical assistance.
0:53:28 Okay.
0:53:37 Which not as far as, but I’ve seen it go as high as medical assistance where people are finding people are qualified, trained, and they have medical backgrounds and the person just managing the business.
0:53:43 I’ve seen that actually as a new demographic of people getting into the medical assistant business as well.
0:53:48 Those are a few business models where they’re exactly the same thing as what we do, just on different levels.
0:53:49 Yeah.
0:53:55 I guess that’s care.com or Papa Pal, the caregiving type of marketplaces.
0:53:59 We’ve used Zeal, like the massage matchmaker service.
0:54:06 You punch in what time you want it, and they send it out to their network of licensed massage people, and they come to your house.
0:54:09 Another example of that, we just hired an au pair.
0:54:16 And essentially, all the agency does is find people who are qualified to take care of kids, and they match us with them.
0:54:20 It’s the same exact process, and we have her living in our house right now, and this is our second one.
0:54:23 So, I mean, we pay a lot more money for that.
0:54:24 What was the name of the au pair service?
0:54:26 So, that was a cultural care.
0:54:26 Okay.
0:54:28 Because we had a woman on the show, and that was her business.
0:54:32 She was, like, franchising out this, like, nanny matchmaking service.
0:54:36 It was like, hey, you know, it’s hard to find the right people, but, you know, our proven system.
0:54:38 It was like, okay, this is cool.
0:54:38 It is.
0:54:41 And I’ve met someone who does the nanny service, and I was like, how do you do it?
0:54:42 She’s like, oh, I don’t go out a nanny.
0:54:45 She said, I have a roster of nannies that I’ve interviewed that I background checked,
0:54:49 and I refer them out to people, and that’s exactly how she runs her businesses.
0:54:55 So, it’s more common than we realize, but I think just because we talk about it so much,
0:54:58 people just can’t comprehend the, oh, I don’t have to go out and clean aspect of it, but it
0:54:59 happens all around us.
0:55:00 Yeah.
0:55:04 In the online world, we call it, like, the freelance trap of getting stuck, selling your
0:55:06 skills, selling time for money.
0:55:11 It’s like, well, if you start with the intention of being the owner-operator and hiring other
0:55:15 people to do the work from the very beginning, you kind of avoid that freelance trap.
0:55:20 The matchmaker model, the agency model, you know, lower margins, but more scalable because
0:55:22 you’re not tied to your direct time.
0:55:22 Yeah.
0:55:27 Sounds like this is, you know, the full-time income at this point, plus the influencer business,
0:55:28 which we’ll get to in a second.
0:55:29 Was there a revenue target?
0:55:33 Like, at what point do you feel comfortable saying goodbye to the career?
0:55:37 So, I don’t think you ever feel comfortable when, and even when I handed in my resignation
0:55:41 letter and I had the whole goodbye speech ready, we were never ready.
0:55:42 We just had a kid.
0:55:44 We just bought a house.
0:55:45 It was the end of the year.
0:55:48 But I just had the blessing of my wife that we were able to do it.
0:55:53 And we said, worst case scenario, I could go back to work and go back to my same job if
0:55:55 I wanted to, or get another one.
0:56:00 But I think the level of comfort we had was when we had six months of emergency savings
0:56:02 in our bank account, Liquid, just in case.
0:56:03 Yeah.
0:56:05 We didn’t have that consumer debt anymore.
0:56:05 Mm-hmm.
0:56:07 We had enough savings for our new baby on the way.
0:56:10 And we was like, it’s not going to be a better time.
0:56:12 And, you know, we just took the lead.
0:56:12 Yeah.
0:56:13 I’m glad you said that.
0:56:15 Like, it’s never comfortable, right?
0:56:17 It’s still like, oh, what am I doing?
0:56:19 I’ve got this, you know, track record.
0:56:23 I got this business that’s doing well, but can I really cut my own paycheck?
0:56:25 Is this, you know, how sustainable is it?
0:56:25 It’s scary.
0:56:26 All of these things could disappear.
0:56:30 And my wife keeps telling me, like, you know, she keeps telling me that how likely is it
0:56:31 that everything disappears at the same time?
0:56:35 It’s not very likely, but, you know, as an entrepreneur, you’re always thinking like, what
0:56:35 if this happens?
0:56:39 Like, obviously you got more upside, but you never know.
0:56:40 So, um, that was my fear.
0:56:42 Like, what if, what if, she’s like, what if this works?
0:56:43 Yeah.
0:56:46 And now, uh, four years later, you know, I’m a full-time entrepreneur.
0:56:51 And then funny enough, Janoka, she actually got laid off a month into her maternity leave.
0:56:52 Okay.
0:56:53 Yeah.
0:56:53 Is that even legal?
0:56:57 That’s a whole nother story, but she got laid off a month into her maternity leave.
0:56:59 And we were like, well, okay, here we are.
0:57:00 Here we are.
0:57:01 Yeah.
0:57:03 Sometimes it’s almost, it’s never fun to get laid off.
0:57:07 It’s almost easier if somebody else forces your hand and you’re like, okay, well now
0:57:08 or never, I guess.
0:57:11 Now we’ve been talking about it for years, who would leave first and when we’re going to
0:57:11 leave.
0:57:14 And it was kind of like jumping into a rope and we never did it.
0:57:15 I didn’t.
0:57:17 Then her job, you know, forced her to do it.
0:57:18 So, uh, yeah, that was, that was a funny one.
0:57:20 Not funny, but you know.
0:57:20 Yeah.
0:57:23 Talk to me about the education side.
0:57:27 People started to take notice of your success with the cleaning business.
0:57:30 You’ve got cleaningbusinessmasterclass.com.
0:57:35 I see the two comma club, uh, you know, cook funnels plaque on the wall behind you.
0:57:40 There’s been a lot of interest in other people learning to do what you do.
0:57:44 Yeah, it started right at the height of the pandemic and coincidentally enough, people
0:57:48 think that the cleaning business was doing bad and they say, oh, well, why do you sell
0:57:49 courses?
0:57:54 And actually the cleaning business hit its highest months during the pandemic, which proved that
0:57:55 the business model was efficient.
0:57:57 And then all we did was we just started sharing.
0:58:02 I mean, we’ve been sharing our journey since 2017 online, but we never really thought people
0:58:07 cared about the cleaning business because it was unsexy and we got a little bit of interest
0:58:07 in it.
0:58:12 And what it turned into was a full blown, you know, multiple seven figure business where
0:58:16 now we had about 2000 students inside of cleaning business university.
0:58:19 They’ve done over $18 million in their own cleaning businesses.
0:58:24 They’ve cleaned over 50,000 homes and opened up businesses in 40 plus states.
0:58:26 And it took on a whole life of its own.
0:58:27 How crazy is that?
0:58:32 Think about like the cumulative dust removed from America.
0:58:37 It’s some cool metrics to think about, like the influence that you’ve had.
0:58:37 Yes.
0:58:41 And we never thought people cared about it, but we realized the more we shared, the more
0:58:42 people we impact.
0:58:46 And then also, you know, as long as we’re helping students get a result, whether it’s to help
0:58:51 them pay off an extra bill, like when we started or travel a little bit more, pay down some
0:58:56 debt or some people have, you know, left their nine to fives and gone full time into this
0:58:56 thing.
0:59:01 And that’s when we realized that there was true impact in sharing our story outside of
0:59:02 the debt freedom story.
0:59:02 Yeah.
0:59:11 As a typical funnel to speak, your social media, YouTube podcast to, you know, to email opt-in
0:59:12 straight to a sales page.
0:59:15 What is the journey look like for a typical student?
0:59:17 We’ve tried a few different things.
0:59:21 So when we first started, we went completely low tech, no tech.
0:59:26 It was an Instagram live of us sharing everything we know in one video.
0:59:32 And we had people like, if you want us to turn us into a program where that’s adjustable
0:59:36 for you, you could go through your own pace, you know, and send us a DM.
0:59:37 And that was it.
0:59:39 And we got, I think, 10 sales at $99.
0:59:42 And we said, okay, now we got validation.
0:59:43 Yeah.
0:59:45 Quick validation, lowish price point.
0:59:46 Yep.
0:59:48 So we was like, okay, now we have to go and do this thing.
0:59:54 So we spent a weekend building out the curriculum, recording it on Zoom, just like this.
1:00:00 And fast forward four years later, now we have a whole community inside of Mighty Networks.
1:00:03 We have a full-time staff admin assistant.
1:00:05 We got a full-time customer service agent in it.
1:00:08 We got full-time or part-time coaches in it also.
1:00:12 And it’s developed and become its own thing at this point.
1:00:14 But it was really just a DM.
1:00:18 And then now we have Clean It Business Masterclass where we got so many questions on a weekly
1:00:18 basis.
1:00:24 And it’s like every single week, I go and perform the same exact masterclass for a full year.
1:00:28 Russell Brunson style, do it once for a year, see how it goes.
1:00:29 And so that’s what we’ve been doing.
1:00:30 Yeah.
1:00:33 It seems like it’s working really well and your students are getting great results.
1:00:39 So you are the Hartramoni on Instagram, cleaningbusinessmasterclass.com.
1:00:40 We mentioned that.
1:00:43 You’ve also got the More Than a Side Hustle podcast.
1:00:43 Love it.
1:00:45 Lots of episodes out over there.
1:00:46 What’s next for you?
1:00:47 Where are you guys taking this thing?
1:00:49 That’s a great question.
1:00:54 The way I see Clean It Business University is I want it to be an all-in-one platform for
1:00:57 entrepreneurs who happen to own cleaning businesses.
1:01:02 I think that’s one of the biggest differences between us and cleaning business owners is
1:01:05 this is just one way we’re able to achieve an outcome.
1:01:08 So even inside of our platform, we talk about taxes.
1:01:10 We talk about strategy.
1:01:11 We talk about investing for your kids.
1:01:12 So we had kids.
1:01:15 People want to know, how are you investing for Alani and Amaya?
1:01:21 So we brought in our strategists who are helping us invest so that by Alani’s 18th birthday,
1:01:24 she’ll have close to a million dollars saved and invested.
1:01:29 So we’re bringing everything that’s in our entire world, our all-pair, how we found them,
1:01:31 how you guys could use them as well.
1:01:37 So everything that we’ve learned over the course of these eight years as we’ve been sharing this
1:01:41 journey, we bring that back to our community so that they could use resources as they see
1:01:41 fit.
1:01:44 And the cleaning business just might be one stopping point along their entire journey.
1:01:47 They might learn from us about the cleaning business.
1:01:49 They might say, I want to go start a car rental business.
1:01:53 Or I might want to start a micro-influencer business, or I might want to just share my
1:01:53 story online.
1:01:58 So we see it as an all-in-one platform and curriculum for anyone who wants to learn about
1:02:01 entrepreneurship by the vehicle of having a cleaning business.
1:02:03 And then also, obviously, raising our two kids.
1:02:04 Yeah.
1:02:09 People learn right alongside you as you’ve grown and the family has grown.
1:02:12 And, you know, different seasons, different stages come up all the time.
1:02:13 So I’m happy to hear that.
1:02:13 Absolutely.
1:02:16 Again, CleaningBusinessMasterclass.com.
1:02:17 Check it out over there.
1:02:19 Big thanks to Anthony for sharing his insight.
1:02:23 Thanks to our sponsors for helping make this content free for everyone.
1:02:27 As always, you can hit up SideHustleNation.com slash deals for all the latest offers from our
1:02:28 sponsors in one place.
1:02:29 That is it for me.
1:02:31 Thank you so much for tuning in.
1:02:33 Until next time, let’s go out there and make something happen.
1:02:36 And I’ll catch you in the next edition of the Side Hustle Show.

0:00:05 Here’s an oldie but a goodie from the archives from the Side Hustle Show Greatest Hits Collection.
0:00:09 What’s up? What’s up? Nick Loper here. Welcome to the Side Hustle Show because
0:00:15 the best time to repair a roof is when the sun is shining. Hat tip to JFK for that one
0:00:21 special Mother’s Day edition of the show for you this week featuring 10 bits of advice and wisdom
0:00:29 from mom. The dad advice episode we did last June for Father’s Day was a lot of fun and it was pretty
0:00:35 popular so I’m going to attempt to revisit that format today just with mom providing the often
0:00:41 very literal advice and me over analyzing it 30 years later. That Father’s Day episode was number
0:00:48 393 if you want to go back and check it out. So first a little bit about mom for the sake of context
0:00:55 here. She essentially had two careers the first in nursing and the second as a library assistant
0:01:00 where she actually helped me get one of my first jobs getting paid to reshelve books. This is like
0:01:07 the perfect introvert gig plus it paid time and a half on Sundays which was like 12 or 13 bucks an hour
0:01:15 pretty good high school job. But mom encouraged both work and work ethic at an early age both in my
0:01:22 brother and I by her own example and by setting expectations. More on that in a bit. But mom’s
0:01:27 probably always been my biggest advocate and supporter even if the online business models that
0:01:31 I was playing around with weren’t always easy to explain to her friends like oh I think he sells
0:01:37 shoes on the internet I don’t know he seems to be doing okay. You know how bloggers always joke about
0:01:43 like the early days of their blog when it’s only their mom reading? Those are not jokes those are 100%
0:01:48 true and it’s not only that she would leave comments and I’d want to say well that’s fine just don’t put
0:01:53 your last name or don’t put mom in the name field like make it look legit. So here we go 10 lessons
0:02:00 from mom that stand out and have stuck with me over the years. Number one is to keep reading and to keep
0:02:06 writing. My brother and I you’ll hear from Chris in a minute you know we watched our fair share of TV
0:02:11 and we played our fair share of video games but reading for pleasure was always encouraged and was
0:02:17 really expected. But beyond that there was this unspoken balance of consumption and creation and
0:02:21 what I found was that by reading and learning and taking in different styles and perspectives
0:02:29 you become more creative. Like when I listen to other podcasts or read other authors I find what I like
0:02:34 and what I don’t like oh what literary device did they use there and I’m often finding inspiration
0:02:40 during quote-unquote consumption time. But for mom it wasn’t enough to be a passive consumer. We had this
0:02:46 stack of construction paper and crayons and markers in the desk in the kitchen and we turned that into all
0:02:51 sorts of projects. I remember we were making pilgrim costumes and treasure maps and making up our own
0:02:57 games. When I said I didn’t like the new Sonics logo she said okay make a better one. And I think writing
0:03:03 is probably one of the most underrated skills in the world today because so much of our communication
0:03:08 it happens over email or you know maybe you need to make a good impression on your resume or your
0:03:13 LinkedIn profile or you need to persuade someone to join your email list or to buy your product
0:03:17 or you just need to create a piece of content that Google thinks is good enough to rank on the first
0:03:22 page. It’s all writing and it’s a skill that can be learned but it’s a skill that takes practice
0:03:29 and I’m really grateful that mom encouraged both Chris and I to keep writing. Yes we got plenty of
0:03:34 practice in school but we’d come up with stories that weren’t part of any school assignment. I remember
0:03:40 one from probably first grade about three dinos. Couldn’t spell dinosaur at that time so they were just
0:03:47 dinos. They were named Ken, Alvin, and Jose after some you know popular baseball players circa 1989.
0:03:53 I don’t remember the plot of the story but it was just an early example of writing for fun. A habit
0:03:58 that continues today only you know I’m lucky enough to get paid to do it now. And I think this is a big
0:04:04 deal and that’s why I put it at number one. The easy path is to keep consuming this endless social media
0:04:11 feed but dedicate some time to your own creation. Doesn’t have to be writing but make something. What do you
0:04:16 want to be known for? What are you going to put out into the world? One of the questions that I asked
0:04:22 myself before starting Side Hustle Nation was when someone googles you what do you want them to find?
0:04:28 So that was mom advice number one. Keep reading. Keep writing. Number two is if you’re not in it it’s just a
0:04:32 postcard. Back in the day you might be old enough to remember this. You didn’t have a camera on your
0:04:38 phone. Instead you took pictures with an actual camera with actual film. Yes pre-digital camera.
0:04:43 And then when the role was used up might be next week might be three months from now you had to
0:04:47 take it to the place and get it developed. Super delayed gratification. I remember that picture
0:04:54 and the feedback mom gave me upon developing one of those roles of film of mine was you know what if
0:05:00 you’re not in it it’s just a postcard. I don’t remember what those pictures were of only apparently
0:05:05 that I wasn’t in them and that was something that stuck with me both on the literal level and on the
0:05:10 metaphorical level. If you’re ever fortunate enough to find yourself at the Great Wall or
0:05:16 Anchor Wand or Stonehenge or the Eiffel Tower or the Pyramids or wherever know that there have been
0:05:21 thousands of professional photographers who’ve been there before you with just the right light and just
0:05:26 the right equipment and they’ve gotten a better shot than you could really ever realistically hope
0:05:32 to achieve. But they don’t have you. Get in the picture. So in all my projects the ones that have had
0:05:37 the most success are the ones that I signed my name to instead of the ones where I’ve tried to stay more
0:05:43 you know semi-anonymous behind the scenes. They’re the ones that I stepped into the picture for and of
0:05:48 course just about every business under the sun has been done before and if it hasn’t maybe that’s a
0:05:54 risky sign you better go and validate it first but it hasn’t been done by you with your unique
0:05:59 perspectives and personality with your unique strength and your style. Just last week we heard from
0:06:05 Jade Weatherington who said that she’d had people rip off her lessons and her curriculum and she said
0:06:12 they can copy her but they can’t be her. You can be your own unique selling proposition and competitive
0:06:18 advantage. If you’re not in it it’s just a postcard. Mom lesson number three is be able to follow the
0:06:25 instructions but doing it your own way is allowed too. This is a lego building example as in yes you can
0:06:30 build the thing you can follow the steps you can make it look like the one in the picture and yes
0:06:35 that’s fun. That’s important to be able to pay attention to the details all of that but now you got
0:06:42 all these pieces what else could you make? And I feel like we spent a lot more time building off script in
0:06:49 that way. So our oldest is five now little hustler number one. He’s super into legos and I think it’s
0:06:53 really cool that he’s got this part figured out. He calls it imagination legos where he just builds
0:06:59 something of his own creation. Pterodactyls, spaceships, boats, all sorts of cool stuff. The reason I think
0:07:06 this parallels entrepreneurship is that yes you should absolutely take advantage of the case studies and
0:07:13 examples and recipes and mentorship of all the people, all the businesses that have gone before you. And in some
0:07:18 ways it would be kind of silly not to. Like why reinvent the wheel, right? And a lot of this stuff is free. I
0:07:24 remember our chat with Donald Spann last year who built and sold a virtual receptionist company.
0:07:30 All remote. What was interesting was he said he would listen to interviews that other call center
0:07:36 founders gave. And I think he specifically mentioned Jill Nelson from Ruby Receptionists.
0:07:41 And he would learn all sorts of details about the inner workings of these companies. It’s also why during
0:07:48 any well-orchestrated affiliate launch, the affiliate manager will give you the formula. Hey, I need you
0:07:53 to send an email on these days. Here’s the swipe copy for day number one. Here’s the swipe copy for
0:07:59 day number two. It’s because they’ve seen what works. And so while I think it’s wise to pay attention to
0:08:05 what’s working and what has worked, it’s okay to do an imagination build too. And remember imagination
0:08:10 Legos. Just because for some of the challenges you come across, there’s not always going to be
0:08:15 instructions. It’s similar to the postcard bit. Inject yourself into the project as a point of
0:08:21 differentiation. And with any luck, you’ll be the case study that other people turn to look to you for
0:08:26 inspiration in the future. So be able to follow the instructions, but doing it your own way is allowed
0:08:33 too. That was a bit of mom advice number three. Number four is to send your thank you notes. So we had two
0:08:38 Aunt Margaret’s growing up and for our birthdays, Chris and I, they would send us a birthday card
0:08:44 with a check and one Aunt Margaret would send a $15 check and the other Aunt Margaret would send a $2
0:08:50 check. And looking back, you know, how sweet is that, right? But we weren’t allowed to cash those checks
0:08:54 and we definitely weren’t allowed to spend any of that money until the thank you notes were written.
0:08:59 And I understand it’s a polite thing to do and it’s maybe becoming a little bit of a lost art,
0:09:06 but it was number one, a way to practice writing again, right? And number two, a way to instill
0:09:12 gratitude. Even as a kid, when writing thank you notes was kind of a chore, it made you think that these
0:09:18 people took some time out of their day to send you a card and to send you some money. They care about you.
0:09:24 Be grateful that you have these people in your life. And while you’re at it, maybe you have some other stuff
0:09:29 to be thankful for too. I’ve been gratitude journaling off and on for probably close to 10 years at this
0:09:35 point, which is like a mini thank you note every night, no matter how bad a day goes, no matter how
0:09:43 challenging it is, I find this to be a pretty helpful nightly reset. Just a little reminder. Okay, it’s not
0:09:48 all bad. And this is actually one of the five primary habits that I’ve got baked into my progress journal,
0:09:54 physical productivity journal, which you can find at progress journal.net. So write those thank you
0:10:01 notes. What are you grateful for? More mom advice coming up right after this. When you’re running a
0:10:06 business, every missed call is money left on the table. Customers expect speed. Think about the last
0:10:12 time you had a plumbing emergency. If the first plumber didn’t answer, my guess is you moved on to the next
0:10:16 one on the list. With our sponsor, OpenPhone, you’ll never miss an opportunity to connect with your
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0:10:31 carrying around two phones or using a landline. With OpenPhone, your team can share one number and
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0:10:49 offering SideHustle show listeners 20% off your first six months at OpenPhone.com slash SideHustle.
0:10:58 That’s O-P-E-N-P-H-O-N-E dot com, OpenPhone.com slash SideHustle. And if you have existing numbers with
0:11:04 another service, OpenPhone will port them over at no extra charge. OpenPhone. No missed calls,
0:11:10 no missed customers. One strategy I didn’t fully embrace or maybe wasn’t fully aware of when I was
0:11:15 starting out was this idea of the piggyback principle. In the startup phase, that means you
0:11:19 don’t have to start completely from scratch, but instead you can take advantage of existing tools,
0:11:25 templates, playbooks, best practices from the people who’ve gone before you. A perfect example of this
0:11:31 is our partner Shopify. Shopify is the commerce platform behind millions of businesses from
0:11:36 household names to side hustlers on their way to becoming household names. With hundreds of ready-to-use
0:11:41 templates, Shopify helps you build a beautiful online store and start selling. Plus, Shopify is packed
0:11:46 with helpful AI tools to accelerate your workflow. We’re talking product descriptions, page headlines,
0:11:51 and even enhancing your product photography. You can even easily create email and social media campaigns
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0:12:02 you’re ready for Shopify. Turn your big business idea into with Shopify on your side. Sign up for your
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0:12:21 Mom lessons number five and number six come from my brother, Chris, who you can find writing about living
0:12:26 your best life. And he also offers habit coaching at becomingbetter.org.
0:12:34 I’ve got two bits of wisdom from mom that I’d like to share. The first one is people like mixtapes. Now
0:12:39 this concept will be a little foreign to younger listeners, but when I grew up, we listened to cassette
0:12:45 tapes in the car. And there was a time around fourth grade that I got really into Billy Joel. I would
0:12:51 constantly listen to his albums on the record player in our living room. And mom realized that I would
0:12:56 appreciate having a mixtape of my favorite Billy Joel songs for the car. So she made one for me.
0:13:01 And of course, I loved it. For side hustlers, the lesson here is that there’s a lot of value in
0:13:07 curating. Not that many people want to listen through all of Billy Joel’s albums, but loads of people want
0:13:12 the greatest hits. So if you can sift through a large collection of ideas and organize the best of
0:13:18 them into a website, a book, or a course, people will really appreciate that and pay you for it.
0:13:23 Nick does that with things like the traffic course.com. And it’s something I’ve done with articles
0:13:29 like the one I wrote on the essentials of stoicism. The second bit of mom wisdom I’d like to share is
0:13:36 do the easy part first. One thing I always did with mom growing up was jigsaw puzzles. And some of the
0:13:41 puzzles we did were really big and really difficult, but mom had a strategy for handling the challenge.
0:13:47 Start with the outline and then work on the easiest parts of the puzzle. The lesson for everyone,
0:13:52 and especially for side hustlers working on complicated projects is that a difficult task feels
0:13:58 more doable once you get started. Once you knock out the easy parts and make an outline, the project that
0:14:05 initially felt overwhelming becomes manageable. Plus, moving forward creates momentum. So instead of feeling
0:14:11 stuck or feeling lazy, you’ll actually feel motivated to continue. This is an essential strategy for overcoming
0:14:16 procrastination. By beginning with the easiest part, you make it easier to get rolling.
0:14:25 I like this curation example. And there are tons of examples in the online business space where you can
0:14:31 see it in action. I mean, in one sense, every interview that you hear on this show is one form
0:14:36 of curation because it made it through versus the 25 pitches that didn’t. And I’ve started creating custom
0:14:44 playlists on Spotify that showcase specific business models to hopefully eliminate some of that overwhelm of,
0:14:49 there’s 400 episodes. Where do I start? Another curation business model I’m excited about right now is email
0:14:55 newsletters. You might have noticed that I’ve started doing this at the bottom of my newsletters, highlighting
0:15:02 two or three cool tools or articles that I found interesting over the last week. But curated newsletters are really
0:15:08 cool because if you could source the most interesting or helpful articles in your niche and do it on a daily or weekly
0:15:14 basis, you help cut through the clutter for all your subscribers. One of my new favorites here is called all star
0:15:19 money. This is an example from the personal finance space where every day they’re sending out three unique
0:15:26 articles from the personal finance universe. They’re well thought out. They’re interesting. I don’t know. I like it all star
0:15:34 money. But as the audience grows, the other reason that these curated newsletters are interesting to me is, you know,
0:15:41 they can be monetized with relevant advertising or affiliate offers or even products or services of your
0:15:47 own creation. You can check out my chat with Cody Sanchez in episode 419 for a little bit more on the
0:15:53 newsletter business. That’s on how she grew in monetized contrarian thinking. So that was mom advice.
0:15:59 Number five, curation is creation. And yes, it is a valuable service. Number six was doing the easy
0:16:07 part first. And this is kind of the counter argument to Brian Tracy’s eat that frog, which argues, do the
0:16:12 most difficult thing first, get it out of the way. There’s, I think, a time and a place for both, especially
0:16:18 if you’re prone to procrastination. You know, maybe you just need to rip off that bandaid. I’m curious,
0:16:24 though, which way do you prefer to work? I tend to default to doing the easy stuff first to build some
0:16:30 positive momentum like Chris described. And in my case, maybe that’s outlining an article instead of
0:16:35 staring at the blank screen and trying to come up with an intro. But once that’s done, once the outline
0:16:39 is done, the article kind of starts to write itself, you start filling in the gaps. And next thing you know,
0:16:46 you’ve made some some meaningful progress. But big thanks to Chris for sharing those curate and do the
0:16:52 easy part first. Again, you’ll find him at becoming better.org. The next bit of mom advice was one we
0:16:59 actually talked about as well, Chris and I, and that’s number seven, an ounce of prevention is worth a pound
0:17:05 of cure. Chris’s example was that developing good brushing and flossing habits is a lot cheaper than
0:17:11 paying for cavities. But I actually remember another bathroom related example that had to do with our aim
0:17:16 around the toilet. Mom was sick of cleaning up the bathroom when we were kids. So the first thing she
0:17:22 did was delegate that chore to us. Look, it’s your job now. When we decided it wasn’t much fun either.
0:17:27 She said, well, you know what, it would be a lot easier if you didn’t miss so much. So after that,
0:17:32 we got a lot more careful with our aim, you know, preventing the problem from happening in the first
0:17:37 place. When I worked in the car business, there was a rule in the service department to call your
0:17:43 customers before they called you. Like if a customer had their car in the shop for some maintenance or
0:17:50 repair, make sure to give them updates and progress reports and cost details as it goes along before
0:17:55 they call you at 445, right before closing time to ask, hey, is this ready to get picked up? Or they
0:18:00 get this surprise bill when they do show up. It was a way to prevent upset customers and manage
0:18:06 expectations. In online business, you see lots of examples of this ounce of prevention in practice,
0:18:15 from FAQ pages to detailed sizing information and pictures like of the products, or even with advertising
0:18:22 copy that says specifically who the product is the best fit for, and maybe who it’s not for. All of that is
0:18:29 designed to prevent the more expensive, quote, cures of customer support staff, of processing returns,
0:18:35 or just working with a client who’s not well aligned with what you have to offer. So your homework here is
0:18:42 to take a look at the messages or questions that you get from customers, readers, subscribers. Are there
0:18:48 any patterns? What could you do to prevent some of those messages? Now I want to be clear, I am happy to
0:18:54 hear from readers and listeners. I love it. Most of the time it makes my day. But there are certain messages
0:19:00 that are frustrating for both parties, like, hey, where’s my file? Or how can I update my email? So I put
0:19:05 together a special VIP page where subscribers can access all the bonus files, don’t have to punch in
0:19:11 your email again. And I send that out to new subscribers after they join the email list. You can
0:19:16 check it out, sidehustlenation.com slash join. You can see it in action. It should be there, you know,
0:19:21 10-15 minutes after you sign up. And then I added a little link at the bottom of the newsletter that
0:19:27 lets people update their account information in ActiveCampaign. And I think once you start looking,
0:19:33 you’ll find lots of different ways to apply this ounce of prevention rule. Maybe it’s creating text
0:19:38 expander snippets for stuff you type all the time. Maybe it’s creating process documentation for your
0:19:43 team. But that was mom advice number seven, an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.
0:19:51 Mom lesson number eight is, is that really what you want to spend your money on? I credit both mom and
0:19:58 dad for instilling this habit of lifelong frugality, or maybe spending intentionally is maybe a better way
0:20:03 to phrase it. But it was mom who helped, you know, count out the coins from my Garfield piggy bank and
0:20:09 open up my first savings account. She was the one who’d play allowance the board game with us. And one of the
0:20:16 first things I remember saving up for as a kid was to buy this skateboard. And it was probably first grade,
0:20:22 second grade. It was 28 bucks at Toys R Us. There was one with a cooler pattern for $36, but I didn’t have
0:20:28 that much. And we’re standing there in the aisle and she asks, okay, is that really what you want to spend your
0:20:33 money on? And if you thought it was a dumb idea, which you probably did, I don’t think that was
0:20:40 detected by me. Instead, what came across was, yes, you can get this. You understand how much it costs.
0:20:45 You understand how much money you have. And is that worth it to you? And at the time it was, I remember
0:20:50 my friend pulling me up and down the street behind his bike on that thing. But on countless other
0:20:55 occasions, the answer was no, I’d rather save for something else. There’s nothing wrong with spending
0:21:01 money. In fact, that’s kind of the point of earning it, but to make sure it’s on the things that you
0:21:06 really want and value. Just because you can afford something doesn’t necessarily mean that you should
0:21:13 buy it. I also think there’s something about giving kids autonomy with money early on, freedom to make
0:21:19 what you might consider a mistake on a small scale. So they learn what it feels like to spend, what it feels
0:21:25 like to save. And hopefully, maybe they don’t make bigger money mistakes later on. So that was lesson
0:21:30 number eight for me. Is that really what you want to spend your money on? Number nine is to have high
0:21:38 expectations and hold yourself accountable. I was the kid who stressed out about school and grades a lot
0:21:44 more than I probably should have. And mom swears this was self-inflicted, but I don’t know, we definitely
0:21:50 didn’t want to disappoint her. So in middle school, I started to hear these rumors and rumblings that some
0:21:55 of my friends were getting paid for their grades, like their parents would give them 20 bucks for every
0:22:01 A and $10 for every B or something like that. I was like, I could be making money. And I can’t tell you
0:22:09 how fast this proposal was shot down by mom and dad when I floated it by them. Why reward what’s expected,
0:22:15 I think was the reaction. Do your best because of who you are and care about the effort you put out
0:22:20 into the world, not because you think you’re going to get paid for it. Great report card. Now go do it
0:22:26 again next semester. Have high expectations for yourself was number nine. Number 10 is I hope you
0:22:32 dance. And this was mom’s advice upon graduating high school, which was actually lyrics from a song that was
0:22:39 medium popular around that time by Leanne Womack. This was really before my country music kick, but it
0:22:43 was still all over the radio. You couldn’t miss it. I don’t think I can play it for you for copyright
0:22:48 reasons, but it opens like this and I’m not going to try and sing it. Opening lines. I hope you never
0:22:53 lose your sense of wonder. You get to eat your fill, but always keep that hunger. And in rereading the lyrics
0:23:00 in preparation for this episode, I can tell why she gave it to me. This is a really heartfelt sendoff
0:23:07 from any parent to any child, the kind that I probably wasn’t capable of appreciating at 18 and
0:23:15 maybe even not 28, but certainly do now after having kids of my own. It’s a call to be grateful for what
0:23:22 you’ve got, but to keep growing, to have the strength to get through the challenges ahead and to have some
0:23:28 fun along the way. So thank you for that, mom. Love you. Hopefully lots of years of dancing still to
0:23:35 come. Now I asked her what advice she got from her mom. And even though she had zero desire to be on air,
0:23:41 she was a good sport. She did send me this clip. After much thought and consulting my siblings, it turns
0:23:47 out mom wasn’t big on giving advice. We weren’t often told you can’t do something, but we were told to try
0:23:53 and mom would be there to pick up the pieces when it didn’t work out. So I guess mom’s advice would be
0:24:00 don’t be afraid to try. I think that clocked in at 18, 19 seconds. Definitely not one to seek the
0:24:06 spotlight, but there you have it. Be open to trying new things. The side hustle show is a great example
0:24:11 of me trying something new and it is turning eight years old this month. Hard to believe, but you never
0:24:17 know until you try. And I know I’m at my happiest when I’m experimenting and trying new stuff. For
0:24:24 example, I’m testing a new email challenge slash welcome series with a little one-time offer on the
0:24:28 confirmation page for the first time ever. This took an embarrassing amount of brain power to create,
0:24:33 but was also a lot of fun. I’m excited to see what kind of results it gets because if you don’t test,
0:24:39 if you don’t experiment, if you don’t try, you’ll never know. But mom, appreciate all the encouragement
0:24:44 and wisdom over the years. And thank you so much for tuning in. That is it for me. Until next time,
0:24:48 let’s go out there and make something happen. And I’ll catch you in the next edition of the Side
0:25:04 Hustle Show. Hustle on. Did you know Mother’s Day is coming up? Yeah. What should we get for mama?
0:25:13 I’m thinking card. Card would be nice. Or a car? A car? Yeah. I don’t know about that. What kind of
0:25:21 car would mommy like? A car that could turn into a submarine or a plane. That’s very versatile for
0:25:24 sure. Or we could just build one. Or we could build one. What would you build it out of?
0:25:32 Metal. Metal, sure. Or we need to buy pieces. Yeah, it probably would require a lot of pieces.
0:25:40 Let’s go back to the card idea. What would you write in the card for mama? A joke. A joke? Tell a good,
0:25:46 what’s a good Mother’s Day joke? Knock, knock. Who’s there? Em. Em who? Oh, I’m a mother.
0:25:53 All right. I don’t know if I get that one, but what’s Mother’s Day all about? You give mother
0:26:00 something. Is it like birthdays for moms? Mm-hmm. Trying to be thankful for all the things that
0:26:07 they do for us? Yeah. Yeah. What kind of stuff does mama do for you? Uh, cook a dinner. Yeah,
0:26:11 she’s a good cook. She makes you good food. Mm-hmm. Uh, what else? Rocking us before bedtime.
0:26:20 Rocks you to sleep. Yeah. What does mama do for work? Uh, work on the phone, type on the computer,
0:26:28 which is so boring. What else? She practices making some laser beams. Where did she go? At the end of
0:26:35 the freeway. The end of the freeway? Yeah. What type of building is it? A laboratory. She works at the
0:26:43 laboratory. What do you think they have there? Laser beams. What else? Sauce. Laser beams and
0:26:49 saws? I don’t really know. Saucers? Saucers? It’s a top secret place. How else does mommy make money?
0:26:57 Take pictures. That’s right. Taking pictures. Who does she take pictures of? People. Taking pictures
0:27:01 of people. That’s right. Because landscapes don’t write checks. We call that our side hustle. Do you know
0:27:06 what a side hustle is? No. Well, now you do. It’s something extra that you do to make money.
0:27:13 Work? Yeah. Extra work. I think I know a good job I could do. Yeah. If you needed to make money,
0:27:19 what would you do? I could keep mice out of the attic. Keep mice out of the attic? Yeah. That’s
0:27:25 definitely a legit job. Like rodent proofing, for sure. Yeah. I could put security systems. Oh,
0:27:32 security system? For a mouse. Okay. So I’d put some cheese in the attic tied to a string and then the
0:27:38 mice would eat the cheese. They would like bring the cheese to their house, but then it would pull
0:27:44 the string and then the net would go on. Okay. I feel like there’s an old board game like that.
0:27:50 What’s your favorite game to play? Uno. The game that never ends. Uno can go on for a long time.
0:27:55 Remember that time where we played with grandma and grandpa and all grandma had good greens?
0:28:03 Yeah. And it lasted like almost half the night, right? It lasted for a long time. People were trying
0:28:09 to help you win. I had something else I was going to ask you and then I forgot. What was it? It was,
0:28:13 oh, are you excited for kindergarten? Yes. What’s going to happen at kindergarten?
0:28:18 I don’t know. Me neither, man. It’s been a long time since I was in kindergarten.
0:28:25 My kindergarten teacher was Mrs. Rockwell. That’s weird. Do you think she likes rocks?
0:28:32 Maybe so. I can find some pretty cool rocks. Diamond-shaped ones. That’s for sure.
0:28:36 Yeah. White ones. White ones. Do you think you can ride a school bus to kindergarten?
0:28:40 Yeah. Yeah? How are you going to know where to go?
0:28:43 Go where? And once you get to the school, it’s a big place.
0:28:50 I just look around first. Just look around. Somebody will probably be like a, uh, that looks
0:28:56 like a confused kindergartner. Right this way, sir. What’s your name? I look like a confused…
0:29:02 Well, I bet most of the people who first got there were pretty confused. That’s right. You won’t be
0:29:07 the only one. Yeah. If you had a kid, what kind of advice would you give them? I don’t know.
0:29:13 What kind of advice does mama give you? Be a good listener. Be a good listener. What else?
0:29:18 Be nice to Gray. Yes. Be nice to brother, for sure. She’s mostly trying to help you,
0:29:22 you know, grow up to be a good human, you know? Okay. Okay. Okay. All right. You want to be done
0:29:25 with this? Yeah. Okay. All right. Thanks, dude.

0:00:04 A thousand bucks a month helping people plan epic trips.
0:00:06 What’s up, what’s up, Nick Loper here.
0:00:07 Welcome to the Science Hustle Show
0:00:10 because your nine to five may make you a living,
0:00:12 but your five to nine makes you alive.
0:00:14 Another thing that certainly makes you alive
0:00:16 is travel and adventure and exploring
0:00:17 and experiencing new places.
0:00:21 And today I wanna share how you can actually turn
0:00:25 your interest in travel into an extra income stream.
0:00:27 Today’s guest has done just that
0:00:29 on top of some other online businesses
0:00:33 from unlistedtravel.com and maketravelyourjob.com.
0:00:36 After a nine year gap, Bailey Richard,
0:00:38 welcome back to the Science Hustle Show.
0:00:40 Thanks so much for having me back, Nick.
0:00:41 It’s a pleasure to be here again.
0:00:43 I can’t believe it’s been that long.
0:00:43 I know.
0:00:45 Of course, link up Bailey’s original episode.
0:00:47 We’re talking about building an online course business
0:00:49 at that point, but stick around in this one
0:00:52 to learn how travel advisors make money,
0:00:55 how to set yourself up for success in this field,
0:00:56 maybe some scams to avoid,
0:00:59 and creative ways to market your services,
0:01:01 to go out there and get some business.
0:01:03 And I wanna start with the,
0:01:04 you know, what is possible?
0:01:06 What one trip can make you?
0:01:06 Because you mentioned,
0:01:11 I recently planned a trip for two people going to London
0:01:14 and between advisor fees and commissions,
0:01:14 we’ll get into all this.
0:01:19 It was over $600 to you for something that I take,
0:01:20 you enjoy doing anyways.
0:01:21 Absolutely.
0:01:24 This is a particular trip I planned for two individuals,
0:01:26 man and wife, traveling six days,
0:01:29 five nights to London on a romantic getaway.
0:01:32 So to start off, we have the planning fee.
0:01:34 So the planning fee is an upfront fee
0:01:37 that travel advisors will charge their clients
0:01:40 to cover the cost of planning their epic itinerary.
0:01:43 Some travel advisors choose not to charge a planning fee
0:01:44 under some circumstances.
0:01:47 Maybe you’re serving your friends or your family,
0:01:49 but it’s definitely becoming more common
0:01:51 to charge your clients a planning fee.
0:01:53 Now, this isn’t something outrageous.
0:01:55 It could be $50 a day.
0:01:57 It could be $20 a day of travel,
0:02:00 but it could also be a fixed fee,
0:02:03 you know, maybe $100 a week of travel
0:02:05 for up to two people, three people.
0:02:08 You are the one that gets to determine your planning fee,
0:02:10 but that’s approximately what we’re looking at.
0:02:13 So for this particular trip, it was $100.
0:02:16 Now, this was a little bit earlier on
0:02:17 in my travel advising journey.
0:02:19 So today I probably would have charged
0:02:23 maybe even $200 for this particular trip,
0:02:25 but we’re going off the numbers that we used here.
0:02:28 So we’ve got a $100 planning fee upfront.
0:02:31 This is a non-refundable upfront planning fee
0:02:34 from the client to you.
0:02:34 Got it.
0:02:37 So then after the client pays the planning fee,
0:02:39 you are going to get started
0:02:41 planning their epic itinerary.
0:02:43 There’s going to be some back and forth
0:02:45 between you and the client to make it perfect.
0:02:46 But after they’ve approved it,
0:02:50 you’re going to book all of the elements of their trip.
0:02:52 So you’re going to book their hotel,
0:02:53 their tours,
0:02:55 their rental car,
0:02:56 their airport transfers,
0:02:58 all of the things that make somebody’s trip
0:03:00 actually happen.
0:03:02 And how you get paid through that
0:03:03 is by commissions.
0:03:05 The travel vendor or supplier,
0:03:06 like the hotel,
0:03:07 for example,
0:03:09 is going to pay you a commission.
0:03:11 So for example,
0:03:13 in this case study we’re talking about,
0:03:17 I booked the Fleming’s Mayfair Hotel in central London,
0:03:22 and the commission on this particular booking was 15%.
0:03:24 Now this is a little bit higher than average
0:03:27 because this particular hotel is a preferred partner
0:03:29 with my host agency.
0:03:30 Don’t worry,
0:03:32 we’re going to get into all of that,
0:03:36 but you can expect anywhere between 8% to 12%
0:03:39 typically on a regular hotel commission.
0:03:41 But if you are going to book with some of these
0:03:43 preferred hotels where your host agency
0:03:46 might have a special connection or relationship,
0:03:49 you can get commissions that are even higher.
0:03:49 Got it.
0:03:50 In fact,
0:03:53 I have seen a few hotels within my host agency
0:03:55 have up to 20% commission,
0:03:57 which is pretty crazy.
0:03:57 Yeah.
0:03:58 Because on a trip,
0:04:01 the hotel is usually what you spend the most on,
0:04:03 it’s important to make sure you’re looking
0:04:04 at that commission number.
0:04:06 So in this particular case,
0:04:08 the commission value
0:04:11 or the total amount that the client paid for the hotel
0:04:13 for which you can earn commission
0:04:16 was $2,442.
0:04:21 So 15% of that is $366.
0:04:22 Now,
0:04:26 your host agency is going to take a small portion of that.
0:04:29 How much you earn is dependent upon your relationship
0:04:31 with your host agency.
0:04:33 It might be a 70-30 split,
0:04:34 80-20,
0:04:35 or 90-10.
0:04:37 If you’re starting out as a travel advisor,
0:04:39 70-30 is pretty common,
0:04:42 and that’s what I was earning at this point.
0:04:45 Meaning they would give you 70% of the 360.
0:04:46 Exactly.
0:04:47 So you would be earning,
0:04:48 as I did in this case,
0:04:52 70% of the 15%.
0:04:53 So in this case,
0:04:55 that was $256.
0:04:55 Okay.
0:04:58 We already have a $100 planning fee
0:05:00 and $256.
0:05:05 So that’s $356 already on this trip.
0:05:06 And so far,
0:05:08 the only thing I’ve booked for them
0:05:09 is the hotel.
0:05:09 Right.
0:05:11 Now for this particular trip,
0:05:14 I offered them a private airport transfer.
0:05:16 That wasn’t something they were interested in.
0:05:17 They’re pretty frequent travelers.
0:05:19 They wanted to use the tube,
0:05:20 the Gatwick Express,
0:05:22 or the Heathrow Express,
0:05:22 whichever one it was,
0:05:24 and things like that.
0:05:25 they didn’t need a rental car.
0:05:26 But I’m mentioning these things
0:05:28 because you can get commissions
0:05:29 on these as well.
0:05:31 Your job as the travel advisor
0:05:32 is to be thinking about
0:05:34 all of the different elements
0:05:35 that someone is going to need
0:05:36 on their trip
0:05:37 to make it actually happen
0:05:39 and also to make it enjoyable.
0:05:40 It doesn’t mean that the client
0:05:41 is going to take everything
0:05:42 that you propose.
0:05:43 That’s why you’ll go back and forth
0:05:45 with them on the itinerary
0:05:46 to see what they want,
0:05:47 what their budget is.
0:05:48 But at the end of the day,
0:05:50 you can be earning commissions
0:05:51 on all these different things.
0:05:54 Okay, so I could set up shop today
0:05:56 and call myself a travel advisor
0:05:58 and help book these itineraries
0:06:00 and do the travel planning part
0:06:01 for this upfront free.
0:06:03 But if I want to get commissions,
0:06:04 then I have to go through
0:06:05 some registration.
0:06:06 I got to find this host agency.
0:06:09 And this is in lieu of becoming
0:06:11 a certified travel agent,
0:06:13 you know, going through hoops
0:06:14 and requirements like to do that.
0:06:15 Myself, this is kind of like
0:06:18 an easier barrier to get into
0:06:19 earning those types of commissions?
0:06:20 Basically, yes.
0:06:21 So essentially,
0:06:23 in order to book on behalf
0:06:25 of a client and get paid
0:06:25 your commissions,
0:06:26 you’re going to need something
0:06:28 called an accreditation number.
0:06:30 The most famous or most common
0:06:31 is something called IATA,
0:06:33 I-A-T-A.
0:06:34 I think it stands for
0:06:36 International Air Transport Association.
0:06:38 But the reality is
0:06:39 this particular number
0:06:40 is something that you are going
0:06:42 to use at time of booking
0:06:44 to let the vendor,
0:06:45 like the hotel,
0:06:47 know that you’re a travel advisor
0:06:48 or travel agent,
0:06:49 we use those terms interchangeably,
0:06:50 and you’re booking
0:06:51 on behalf of a client.
0:06:54 And this particular accreditation number
0:06:56 is linked to the organization
0:06:58 that’s going to get the commission.
0:07:00 So you have two routes here.
0:07:01 You can either choose
0:07:03 to become an independent agent
0:07:05 and go through the entire process
0:07:08 yourself of becoming accredited,
0:07:10 which is going to take many months
0:07:12 and quite a significant amount of money.
0:07:14 And it’s a very long process.
0:07:16 Or you can do something else,
0:07:17 which is what I recommend
0:07:18 to all of my students and friends,
0:07:20 which is that you should join
0:07:21 a host agency.
0:07:23 So a host agency is a company,
0:07:24 a travel agency,
0:07:26 that’s already gone through
0:07:27 the time and effort
0:07:28 and paid the fees
0:07:29 to become accredited.
0:07:31 They have one accreditation number,
0:07:33 and they share that accreditation number
0:07:35 with all of the travel advisors
0:07:37 that come to work for them
0:07:39 as 1099 and contractors.
0:07:41 Essentially, you’ll be able to use
0:07:42 their accreditation number
0:07:43 when booking.
0:07:44 When they go out
0:07:45 and form the relationships
0:07:47 with all of the hotels
0:07:48 and tour providers
0:07:49 and car rental services
0:07:50 and all of the stuff.
0:07:51 So you don’t have to do that.
0:07:52 And in exchange,
0:07:54 they take that 30% fee
0:07:55 of the commissions.
0:07:55 Absolutely.
0:07:57 So the host agencies
0:07:59 do so much work
0:08:00 for the travel advisors up front.
0:08:01 As you mentioned,
0:08:02 forming those relationships
0:08:04 is a huge part of it.
0:08:05 But there’s also things like
0:08:06 bringing the travel advisors
0:08:08 together in a community,
0:08:09 hosting trainings
0:08:11 about how to run your business,
0:08:12 how to do bookings,
0:08:14 but also about suppliers
0:08:14 or destinations.
0:08:16 They offer support
0:08:18 and they also chase down
0:08:18 your commissions.
0:08:20 So it’s a really great system
0:08:21 because you are not going
0:08:22 to be out there
0:08:22 sending invoices
0:08:23 and trying to chase down
0:08:24 commissions from all
0:08:26 of these different suppliers.
0:08:27 The host agency
0:08:28 is going to do that for you.
0:08:29 And then when it comes,
0:08:30 you know, time for taxes,
0:08:31 it’s super easy
0:08:33 because you’re just getting paid
0:08:34 from one place.
0:08:34 Got it.
0:08:35 Got it.
0:08:35 Okay.
0:08:36 Any host agencies
0:08:37 that you like
0:08:38 or where should people
0:08:39 begin their search here?
0:08:41 Hostagencyreviews.com
0:08:43 is a fantastic website.
0:08:43 I know.
0:08:44 It’s such a great name.
0:08:46 It’s such a great website
0:08:47 to learn more
0:08:48 about the different
0:08:49 host agencies available.
0:08:51 The host agency
0:08:52 I belong to
0:08:53 is called Fora.
0:08:54 And I think
0:08:56 they’re a great host agency,
0:08:57 especially for beginners,
0:08:58 but that doesn’t mean
0:08:59 that’s the only option.
0:09:01 There are many things
0:09:02 you need to consider
0:09:03 when choosing
0:09:04 your host agency.
0:09:05 For example,
0:09:06 what is that
0:09:07 initial commission split?
0:09:08 Are you comfortable
0:09:10 with a 70-30 to start
0:09:11 or do you need
0:09:12 something higher?
0:09:13 What type of support
0:09:15 does the host agency
0:09:16 offer
0:09:17 in terms of
0:09:18 a community trainings,
0:09:19 but also tech?
0:09:20 Of course,
0:09:21 you’re running a business here,
0:09:22 so there’s going to be
0:09:23 some tech involved.
0:09:24 Your host agency
0:09:25 may provide
0:09:26 some tools for you.
0:09:28 They also may not.
0:09:28 You might have to get
0:09:29 those separately.
0:09:30 So there are many
0:09:31 different questions
0:09:31 you’ll need to ask
0:09:32 before you choose
0:09:33 the right one
0:09:33 for you.
0:09:34 And I’m on
0:09:36 ForaTravel.com.
0:09:36 It looks like
0:09:38 it’s $300 a year
0:09:40 to request to join
0:09:41 to apply
0:09:44 under their host agency
0:09:45 as a travel advisor.
0:09:47 Is that fairly typical
0:09:48 where they’re
0:09:49 charging an upfront fee
0:09:50 to be part of their network?
0:09:51 Yes,
0:09:52 that’s a membership fee.
0:09:53 So to apply
0:09:54 is free.
0:09:55 When you are
0:09:56 accepted
0:09:57 or invited
0:09:57 to come
0:09:58 and join them
0:09:59 as a travel advisor,
0:10:00 then there is
0:10:01 that $300
0:10:02 is annual,
0:10:03 but you could also
0:10:03 pay monthly.
0:10:04 So there’s a monthly
0:10:05 or annual membership fee.
0:10:07 And that’s not just
0:10:07 with Fora.
0:10:08 That’s pretty much
0:10:09 with most
0:10:10 or any host agency.
0:10:10 There’s going to be
0:10:11 that upfront fee
0:10:12 to take care
0:10:12 of the services
0:10:13 they provide for you
0:10:15 in addition to
0:10:15 the commissions
0:10:17 as we previously discussed.
0:10:18 There’s somewhat common
0:10:19 in the East Side Hustle
0:10:20 they should Facebook group.
0:10:22 It’s almost a network
0:10:23 marketing pitch
0:10:24 or a multi-level
0:10:24 marketing pitch.
0:10:24 Like,
0:10:26 I book people’s travel
0:10:27 from home
0:10:28 and make
0:10:28 this amount
0:10:29 of commissions.
0:10:29 Like,
0:10:30 is there a network
0:10:31 marketing component
0:10:32 to this
0:10:32 or is this
0:10:34 something completely separate?
0:10:36 With some host agencies,
0:10:37 there is.
0:10:38 In fact,
0:10:39 I recommend
0:10:39 that people
0:10:40 stay away
0:10:41 from those host agencies.
0:10:43 Fora does not have
0:10:44 a network marketing
0:10:45 angle to it.
0:10:46 They do have
0:10:46 a sort of
0:10:47 affiliate program
0:10:48 where you can get
0:10:49 a little bit
0:10:49 off of your
0:10:50 membership fee
0:10:51 every year
0:10:51 if you recommend
0:10:52 a friend,
0:10:53 but there is
0:10:54 no requirement
0:10:55 to bring in
0:10:57 other individuals.
0:10:58 There are
0:10:58 some other
0:10:59 host agencies
0:11:00 that I shall
0:11:00 not mention
0:11:02 that do have
0:11:02 these sort of
0:11:03 requirements
0:11:04 or a very hefty
0:11:06 MLM-type arm.
0:11:07 And you make
0:11:07 a percentage
0:11:08 of, you know,
0:11:09 your referrals,
0:11:10 bookings,
0:11:10 and a percentage,
0:11:10 you know,
0:11:11 just on down.
0:11:12 That’s one more
0:11:13 thing you need
0:11:13 to think about
0:11:14 when joining
0:11:15 the host agency.
0:11:16 Is the focus
0:11:17 really on supporting
0:11:18 the travel advisors
0:11:19 in their quest
0:11:20 to serve their clients?
0:11:21 I believe
0:11:22 at Fora they are.
0:11:23 Or is it
0:11:24 more focused
0:11:25 on just bringing
0:11:26 more people in?
0:11:27 So, yeah,
0:11:28 there are definitely
0:11:28 some host agencies
0:11:29 out there like that,
0:11:30 but they’re not
0:11:31 all like that.
0:11:32 Definitely not.
0:11:32 Okay.
0:11:33 So this is helpful
0:11:34 to know host agency,
0:11:35 love of travel,
0:11:37 and now let’s talk
0:11:38 about the client
0:11:39 getting side.
0:11:40 I imagine everybody
0:11:40 has somebody
0:11:41 in their network
0:11:42 who’s like the
0:11:43 travel person,
0:11:44 the go-to person
0:11:45 who, you know,
0:11:45 knows about,
0:11:46 you know,
0:11:47 trips and hacks
0:11:47 and travel planning.
0:11:48 Like my sister-in-law
0:11:49 is like the go-to
0:11:50 Disney person
0:11:51 in our house,
0:11:52 and there’s got
0:11:53 to be other people
0:11:54 like that in your
0:11:54 own network,
0:11:55 or maybe that’s
0:11:55 you to your own
0:11:56 network.
0:11:56 It’s like,
0:11:56 well,
0:11:57 start out with
0:11:58 friends and family.
0:11:59 I imagine this kind
0:12:00 of starts with
0:12:01 organizing perhaps
0:12:02 family trips
0:12:03 and earning a
0:12:04 little bit of
0:12:05 referral commissions
0:12:06 on that or
0:12:07 planning fees on
0:12:07 that.
0:12:08 What happens after
0:12:09 that, like to get
0:12:10 the client base
0:12:11 spinning here?
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0:14:38 You’re absolutely
0:14:38 right.
0:14:39 Pretty much everybody
0:14:40 starts off either
0:14:41 booking a trip for
0:14:42 themselves or for
0:14:42 their family and
0:14:43 friends and I think
0:14:44 that’s a great
0:14:45 stepping stone because
0:14:46 that’s how you really
0:14:46 learn.
0:14:47 Even if you’re
0:14:48 someone like me who
0:14:49 has decades of
0:14:50 actual travel experience,
0:14:51 doing it for other
0:14:52 people and serving
0:14:54 clients in that way is
0:14:54 a little bit of a
0:14:55 different ballgame.
0:14:56 But once you have
0:14:58 done that, there are
0:14:58 many different ways.
0:14:59 So the first way I
0:15:00 always recommend to
0:15:01 people is by creating
0:15:03 some sort of referral
0:15:03 incentive.
0:15:05 So as I mentioned
0:15:06 earlier, there are
0:15:08 these planning fees and
0:15:09 you can waive those
0:15:10 planning fees under
0:15:11 certain circumstances
0:15:12 for any client.
0:15:13 So for example, you
0:15:14 could say to someone
0:15:16 who was a successful
0:15:17 client that might be
0:15:18 interested in booking
0:15:19 with you again, hey,
0:15:21 you know, if you refer
0:15:22 another person to me who
0:15:23 ends up successfully
0:15:25 booking a trip, I’ll
0:15:26 waive your planning fee
0:15:28 for your next trip.
0:15:30 Yes, for that
0:15:31 particular client who’s
0:15:32 going to book with you
0:15:33 a second time, you are
0:15:34 losing a little bit of
0:15:36 that planning fee, but
0:15:37 in the long run, you’re
0:15:38 going to gain another
0:15:39 client, which could
0:15:40 result in many trips
0:15:41 down the road, you
0:15:42 know, if they end up
0:15:43 really liking working
0:15:43 with you.
0:15:44 So that’s the first
0:15:44 thing.
0:15:45 Got it.
0:15:46 Yeah, it seems like you
0:15:47 almost have to target a
0:15:49 higher end clientele or
0:15:51 a more complex trip than
0:15:52 somebody going to Vegas
0:15:54 for the weekend, where
0:15:56 it’s just, I just go, you
0:15:56 know, book to the hotel
0:15:58 directly or go on
0:15:58 Expedia or whatever.
0:16:00 The DIY part of travel
0:16:01 over the last 20 years
0:16:03 has become easier in one
0:16:03 sense and like
0:16:04 overwhelming with choice
0:16:06 on the other sense, but
0:16:07 there’s the, there’s a
0:16:08 sweet spot for, you
0:16:09 know, helping somebody
0:16:10 with a complex itinerary
0:16:11 or it’s got to be almost
0:16:12 a higher end travel
0:16:13 experience.
0:16:14 That’s a really great
0:16:14 point.
0:16:15 I think that there’s a
0:16:16 couple of ways to look
0:16:16 at that.
0:16:17 So I do think that there
0:16:18 are lots of travel
0:16:19 advisors who choose to
0:16:20 focus on luxury travel
0:16:22 because ultimately if a
0:16:23 client spends more on a
0:16:24 trip, you’re going to
0:16:25 make more commission, but
0:16:26 that’s not everyone.
0:16:27 There are plenty of
0:16:28 people who are just
0:16:29 serving their, you
0:16:30 know, friends and
0:16:31 family that don’t
0:16:33 necessarily have $25,000
0:16:35 per trip budgets, but
0:16:36 the reason they might
0:16:37 enjoy working with a
0:16:39 travel advisor is
0:16:40 because they don’t
0:16:40 know anything about
0:16:41 travel.
0:16:43 They are unfamiliar with
0:16:44 all of the DIY options.
0:16:45 Like you said, they’re a
0:16:46 little overwhelmed.
0:16:47 They want someone who’s
0:16:47 an expert.
0:16:49 As you said, there might
0:16:50 be just a go-to travel
0:16:51 person.
0:16:52 I’m that person in my
0:16:53 family and friends group.
0:16:54 People are constantly
0:16:55 messaging me.
0:16:56 Hey, you know, do you
0:16:57 have any recommendations
0:16:57 about this?
0:16:58 I know you went to
0:16:59 that country a couple
0:16:59 years ago.
0:17:00 What do you think?
0:17:00 Yeah.
0:17:02 And so there is this
0:17:04 desire amongst people to
0:17:06 hire people they trust for
0:17:07 something like this.
0:17:08 And so I just want to
0:17:09 reassure people that it
0:17:10 doesn’t mean that if you
0:17:12 don’t know a very wealthy
0:17:13 CEO to be your client that
0:17:14 you can’t do this or be
0:17:15 successful because I
0:17:17 certainly, you know,
0:17:17 didn’t start out that
0:17:19 way and all my clients are
0:17:20 not wealthy CEOs.
0:17:20 Yeah.
0:17:21 Well, that’s another angle
0:17:23 is like business, maybe not
0:17:24 business travel and it’s
0:17:25 probably like built in
0:17:26 processes for that, but
0:17:29 some sort of, you know,
0:17:30 incentive trips for
0:17:30 companies.
0:17:31 Like when I was working
0:17:32 corporate, like that was
0:17:33 a big part of it.
0:17:34 Like how do we incentivize
0:17:35 these people and organize
0:17:36 these big trips that there
0:17:37 was a whole agency involved
0:17:38 with that, but like maybe
0:17:39 for smaller companies,
0:17:41 there’s a little niche or
0:17:42 angle or to specialize in
0:17:44 a specific location.
0:17:45 Like I’m the go-to expert
0:17:47 on Vietnam or whatever it
0:17:47 may be.
0:17:48 Absolutely.
0:17:50 I mean, getting involved
0:17:51 with your local business
0:17:52 community group, chamber
0:17:53 of commerce, you’re getting
0:17:54 involved there and kind of
0:17:55 letting local businesses
0:17:56 know that this is a
0:17:57 service you offer because
0:17:59 surely that office down
0:18:00 the road is not going to
0:18:01 have an in-house full-time
0:18:03 employee, you know, doing
0:18:04 their, you know, travel for
0:18:05 their organization, but
0:18:06 they might be looking to
0:18:08 do a company retreat for
0:18:09 20 people and you would be
0:18:10 able to help with that.
0:18:12 That sounds perfect.
0:18:13 Yeah, there’s a lot of
0:18:14 different directions that
0:18:15 you can go with here.
0:18:16 So what else, as you’re
0:18:16 opening up your marketing
0:18:18 playbook, we’ve got the
0:18:18 word of mouth, we’ve got
0:18:19 the referral incentive.
0:18:20 Hey, I’ll waive your
0:18:21 planning fee on your next
0:18:23 trip if you send me a new
0:18:24 client and hopefully that
0:18:25 starts to tap into your
0:18:26 network’s network a little
0:18:26 bit.
0:18:27 What else have you found
0:18:27 effective here?
0:18:28 Events.
0:18:30 So both going to and
0:18:31 hosting your own.
0:18:33 So I know of someone who
0:18:35 specializes in planning
0:18:36 honeymoons and romantic
0:18:37 trips all over the world
0:18:39 and she loves to work with
0:18:42 newlyweds and brides and
0:18:43 so she will actually go to
0:18:45 these sort of bridal, you
0:18:46 know, they have these
0:18:47 bridal vendor shows where
0:18:48 the brides are coming to
0:18:50 learn about cake and other
0:18:51 sorts of incredible things.
0:18:53 but she doesn’t even set
0:18:54 up a vendor booth herself.
0:18:55 Certainly that’s an option
0:18:57 but, you know, that’s
0:18:57 costly.
0:18:59 So she literally just goes
0:19:01 and mingles with all of
0:19:02 these brides and talks to
0:19:03 them and just tells them
0:19:04 the truth that, you know,
0:19:05 I plan incredible
0:19:07 honeymoons and romantic
0:19:07 trips.
0:19:09 So going to places where
0:19:10 your ideal client, if you
0:19:11 really have a focus niche,
0:19:12 can help.
0:19:14 But also hosting your own
0:19:15 sort of events on a much
0:19:16 smaller scale.
0:19:17 You don’t have to host a
0:19:18 gigantic conference or
0:19:18 convention.
0:19:19 but you could host, for
0:19:22 example, a local, I don’t
0:19:22 know, let’s pick a country,
0:19:23 Japan.
0:19:24 You could host a local
0:19:26 Japanese themed evening
0:19:28 where you serve foods
0:19:30 traditional to Japan and
0:19:31 you could, as the travel
0:19:32 advisor and host, give a
0:19:34 presentation on a few
0:19:35 interesting facts about the
0:19:37 country, highlight some
0:19:38 places people might want to
0:19:40 go, highlight a couple of
0:19:41 the interesting resorts or
0:19:43 hotels that you could book
0:19:44 for them and the perks you
0:19:45 could get them as a travel
0:19:46 advisor, and of course,
0:19:47 pass out your, you know,
0:19:49 information business cards
0:19:50 at the end, something like
0:19:50 that.
0:19:52 Okay, so I’m hearing the
0:19:53 opportunity to focus on
0:19:55 either a location-specific
0:19:56 niche, like the Japan
0:19:57 specialist, the Disneyland
0:19:59 specialist, or the theme
0:20:00 specific.
0:20:01 Oh, I specialize in booking
0:20:02 epic honeymoons to
0:20:03 wherever you want to go.
0:20:05 That’s a cool angle.
0:20:06 I love the approach of
0:20:07 going, you know, always
0:20:08 that’s the marketing
0:20:09 one-on-one question.
0:20:10 Where are my target
0:20:11 customers already hanging
0:20:11 out?
0:20:12 Well, these brides who are
0:20:13 about to, you know, plan
0:20:14 their wedding and
0:20:14 eventually the honeymoon
0:20:16 are hanging out at these,
0:20:17 you know, bridal vendor
0:20:18 shows, you know, they’re
0:20:19 looking for photographers
0:20:20 and caterers and DJs and
0:20:21 venues.
0:20:22 It’s like, okay, here’s a
0:20:24 natural next step to get in
0:20:25 front of those customers.
0:20:26 I love that strategy.
0:20:28 And then this, you know,
0:20:30 themed dinner or location
0:20:31 specific event.
0:20:32 We see people do this
0:20:33 online.
0:20:33 We see people do this
0:20:34 offline.
0:20:35 The online strategy would
0:20:36 be the, you know,
0:20:38 partner workshop type of
0:20:40 person where if you, you
0:20:43 try to find some, some
0:20:44 organization that already
0:20:46 is catering to people who
0:20:47 might be interested in
0:20:48 traveling to Japan or
0:20:48 something.
0:20:49 I don’t know what
0:20:50 organization that might be
0:20:52 off the top of my head, but
0:20:53 offer to host that
0:20:53 workshop.
0:20:55 Maybe it’s that hour long
0:20:56 webinar presentation or
0:20:57 maybe it’s that in-person
0:20:59 dinner with the sushi and
0:21:00 sake sampling or whatever it
0:21:01 is.
0:21:03 And you’ve cut through the
0:21:05 clutter and now you’re the
0:21:07 go-to expert on that topic
0:21:08 and whether they end up
0:21:10 hiring you or not, you’ve
0:21:11 kind of jumped the line and
0:21:12 say like, well, if we want
0:21:13 to do this trip and you’ve
0:21:15 got us all excited about
0:21:17 it, like there’s a natural
0:21:17 person that they’re going
0:21:19 to call instead of going
0:21:20 back to Google and looking
0:21:22 for other travel advisors
0:21:23 to help them out.
0:21:25 And, you know, you might
0:21:26 be thinking, well, somebody
0:21:27 who’s going to be at this,
0:21:28 you know, Japanese themed
0:21:30 evening is maybe only
0:21:31 considering planning a trip
0:21:32 for themselves or their
0:21:34 family, but that’s not
0:21:34 necessarily true.
0:21:36 When you plant that seed of
0:21:37 excitement, you might find
0:21:38 that that person you were
0:21:40 talking to is in a book
0:21:41 club and they just finished
0:21:42 a book that was all
0:21:44 about Ireland, maybe, or
0:21:45 Scotland, they were reading
0:21:46 about Outlander or
0:21:46 something, right?
0:21:47 And so now they want to
0:21:49 plan an entire trip for
0:21:50 the book club to go.
0:21:51 Naturally, you’re the
0:21:52 person that they’re going
0:21:53 to come to and talk to
0:21:54 about that, right?
0:21:56 So you never know, you
0:21:56 know, where these things
0:21:57 are going to lead to.
0:21:58 But one thing I also want
0:21:59 to mention, you said that
0:22:01 as far as picking a niche
0:22:02 that you could do, you
0:22:03 know, the location-based
0:22:04 or you could do, you
0:22:05 know, the activity-based.
0:22:06 There are other very
0:22:07 popular types of niches
0:22:08 as well.
0:22:09 I know some people that
0:22:11 specialize in only cruises.
0:22:13 I personally don’t really
0:22:13 do cruises.
0:22:15 I might add a river cruise
0:22:16 or something to somebody’s
0:22:16 expedition.
0:22:18 But if somebody wants to,
0:22:19 for example, just take,
0:22:20 you know, a weekend-long,
0:22:21 you know, princess cruise
0:22:22 or Norwegian cruise, that’s
0:22:24 not really my specialty
0:22:26 because there is so much
0:22:27 to learn about cruises.
0:22:28 I mean, really, it is an
0:22:29 entire market in and of
0:22:30 itself.
0:22:31 And so going to somebody
0:22:32 who really knows everything
0:22:34 about cruises, which type of
0:22:35 ship you should take and
0:22:36 what the different routes are
0:22:37 and what the best pricing
0:22:39 is, you know, we were
0:22:40 talking earlier about why
0:22:41 you’d want to hire a travel
0:22:41 advisor.
0:22:43 I don’t really go cruising
0:22:44 ever.
0:22:46 And so that’s something that I,
0:22:47 you know, would want to talk
0:22:48 to an expert about as well.
0:22:49 Yeah, there’s a lot of
0:22:49 pressure.
0:22:50 If this is going to be a
0:22:52 once-in-a-lifetime trip,
0:22:53 and for a lot of people I’ve
0:22:54 been saving for years to
0:22:55 make this happen, I don’t
0:22:56 want to screw it up.
0:22:57 Like, I want to make sure it
0:22:59 is done right and it’s
0:23:00 absolutely worth it to hire
0:23:02 the expert for the planning
0:23:03 fee and make sure you pick
0:23:04 the hotel in the right
0:23:05 location from somebody who’s
0:23:06 been there, done that,
0:23:06 knows the area.
0:23:08 it’s a long way to go
0:23:08 depending on where you’re
0:23:10 going to not have a great
0:23:11 experience.
0:23:12 And so if you could spend a
0:23:13 little bit more up front, I
0:23:14 think it makes a lot of sense
0:23:15 on the client side.
0:23:17 And to come to think of it, I
0:23:18 feel like I’ve seen these
0:23:20 flyers at the library for, you
0:23:22 know, come listen to our talk
0:23:25 about exploring, you know, the
0:23:27 architecture of ancient Egypt
0:23:27 or something.
0:23:29 And I got to imagine it’s
0:23:31 probably a travel advisor who’s
0:23:31 putting that on.
0:23:33 We had a guy who was doing
0:23:35 a tutoring business and it
0:23:36 was like workshops, you know,
0:23:38 hosted at the local coffee
0:23:39 shop or the library.
0:23:40 Bonus points if you can have
0:23:42 them promoted to their
0:23:43 audience, their email list.
0:23:44 Absolutely.
0:23:45 You know, here’s the seven
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0:23:55 guy.
0:23:56 It’s a very similar strategy
0:23:57 here.
0:23:58 Absolutely.
0:23:59 And, you know, it’s funny that
0:24:00 you mentioned the library and
0:24:02 those info sessions because
0:24:03 one other strategy that I’ve
0:24:05 seen people do is it doesn’t
0:24:06 even necessarily have to be
0:24:07 location specific.
0:24:09 It could just be focused on
0:24:09 how to travel.
0:24:11 You’d be amazed at how many
0:24:13 people simply are not as
0:24:14 familiar with the world of
0:24:16 passports and visas and what
0:24:18 is a WHO vaccination card and
0:24:19 all of these different
0:24:19 things.
0:24:21 I have heard of people going
0:24:23 to different countries.
0:24:24 Let’s say Vietnam, I think.
0:24:26 You have to apply many months
0:24:28 in advance to get your visa.
0:24:29 It’s not like just showing up
0:24:30 in London where you can say,
0:24:31 oh, I’m from the USA.
0:24:32 I’m here for a week.
0:24:33 I just want to be a tourist.
0:24:35 The relationships with all
0:24:36 countries are not like that.
0:24:38 And so hosting some of these
0:24:40 how to travel info sessions
0:24:42 can be such a really great
0:24:43 way to get clients because
0:24:44 once people get into that
0:24:45 info session, and you’re
0:24:46 certainly not trying to scare
0:24:48 anyone, but they realize that
0:24:49 they just don’t know as much
0:24:51 as they need to know in order
0:24:52 to have a successful trip,
0:24:54 they’re immediately going to
0:24:55 think, I’m going to be a lot
0:24:56 safer in the hands of this
0:24:58 travel advisor who’s hosting
0:24:58 this session.
0:25:00 It’s not even an ageist
0:25:01 thing, but certainly there
0:25:02 are people as well that
0:25:04 maybe are not as online as
0:25:04 much, right?
0:25:05 So they don’t know all of
0:25:06 the different, you know,
0:25:08 resources available to them.
0:25:10 And so they would just
0:25:11 benefit from doing, you know,
0:25:12 work face-to-face with
0:25:12 someone.
0:25:13 Yeah, the amount of
0:25:15 information out there is so
0:25:16 overwhelming where it’s like
0:25:17 if somebody could cut through
0:25:19 the clutter and help
0:25:21 streamline that process, it
0:25:22 makes a lot of sense.
0:25:23 I feel like my parents have
0:25:24 gone to, you know, the
0:25:26 Rick Steves info session and
0:25:27 then they end up booking
0:25:28 the Rick Steves tour.
0:25:29 So it’s like, this is a
0:25:31 strategy that clearly can
0:25:31 work.
0:25:31 Absolutely.
0:25:32 And if you show them
0:25:34 something that they don’t
0:25:35 think they could have found
0:25:36 on their own, so going back
0:25:38 to that Japan info session we
0:25:39 were talking about, if you
0:25:41 show them, hey, here’s this
0:25:42 incredible, you know,
0:25:44 activity, tour, private
0:25:45 cooking class, whatever it
0:25:46 might be, they’ve never
0:25:47 heard of before, right?
0:25:49 You’re not going to give a
0:25:50 talk and you’re not going to
0:25:51 name the top five spots that
0:25:53 they can easily find by just
0:25:54 Googling what to see in
0:25:54 Japan.
0:25:55 Yeah, the insider
0:25:56 knowledge, the off the
0:25:57 beaten path stuff.
0:25:59 Yes, that’s exactly what
0:25:59 people want to know.
0:26:00 That’s what I based my
0:26:01 business around.
0:26:02 You mentioned earlier
0:26:03 Unlisted Travel.
0:26:04 That is my bread and
0:26:04 butter.
0:26:06 I love, love, love to be
0:26:07 able to delight my clients
0:26:09 by saying, hey, I’m super
0:26:10 excited you’re planning a
0:26:10 trip to London.
0:26:12 Did you know that I can get
0:26:14 you this private tour of
0:26:14 Stonehenge?
0:26:15 Did you know I can do this
0:26:16 private thing?
0:26:18 And they’re always, what?
0:26:18 You can?
0:26:20 I’m so excited about this.
0:26:21 Yeah, that’s very cool.
0:26:23 And then through Fora, you
0:26:25 have a relationship with that
0:26:26 private tour provider and you
0:26:27 get your finder’s fee, your
0:26:28 referral commission on that.
0:26:29 Oh, exactly.
0:26:30 And that’s one of the other
0:26:31 great things about working with
0:26:33 these host agencies is that it’s
0:26:34 not just about the
0:26:35 relationships between, you
0:26:37 know, the host agency and
0:26:39 one hotel, but it’s also these
0:26:41 other companies like a
0:26:42 context travel.
0:26:44 They’re a tour operator that
0:26:45 Fora has a relationship with
0:26:46 and they do, you know, these
0:26:49 really authentic guided tours all
0:26:49 over the world in all
0:26:51 different cities or
0:26:53 eatwith.com, which is a
0:26:54 really great way that you can
0:26:55 get, you know, cooking
0:26:57 classes or group dining
0:26:58 experiences, private dining
0:27:00 experiences with local chefs
0:27:00 and things like that.
0:27:02 And so we can book all of
0:27:03 those for our clients and
0:27:04 all of these different
0:27:06 companies and suppliers and
0:27:08 resources that client that
0:27:08 you’re working with, you
0:27:09 know, they’ve, they’ve
0:27:10 never heard of these things.
0:27:11 They’re just not as plugged
0:27:12 into the travel community.
0:27:13 And also, you know, I
0:27:15 mentioned community, your
0:27:16 host agency likely is going
0:27:17 to have something, whether
0:27:18 it’s akin to a Facebook
0:27:19 group or some sort of
0:27:20 online community where
0:27:21 you’re going to be able to
0:27:22 mix and mingle with all of
0:27:23 the other travel advisors
0:27:24 that belong to that host
0:27:25 agency as well.
0:27:27 And it’s such a great
0:27:28 resource because if the
0:27:29 host agency is doing a
0:27:30 good job, they’re going to
0:27:31 foster collaboration.
0:27:33 And so you can post in
0:27:34 there, hey, I have some
0:27:35 clients that want to go to
0:27:35 Egypt.
0:27:36 I’ve done my research.
0:27:38 I found incredible things,
0:27:39 but I’m just not really
0:27:40 sure where I can find a
0:27:42 private driver I can trust.
0:27:43 Does anybody have a
0:27:43 recommendation?
0:27:44 Boom, boom, boom.
0:27:45 You know, you’re going to
0:27:46 see lots of
0:27:47 recommendations.
0:27:48 And that’s, you know, it’s
0:27:49 a really great resource.
0:27:51 Oh, this is inside of the
0:27:53 Fora forums or the Fora
0:27:54 Facebook group?
0:27:55 Exactly.
0:27:56 That’s what they call it.
0:27:57 They call it the Fora
0:27:58 forum, which is such a
0:27:58 great name.
0:27:59 I love that.
0:27:59 Okay.
0:28:00 Yeah.
0:28:01 So be able to crowdsource
0:28:02 a little bit of
0:28:03 recommendation if it’s a
0:28:04 place that you don’t have
0:28:05 experience with on the
0:28:06 ground per se.
0:28:08 So that makes sense.
0:28:10 One strategy that I want to
0:28:11 highlight that just came to
0:28:14 mind is Rob Petingalo runs a
0:28:15 walking tour company in
0:28:16 Washington, D.C.
0:28:18 And the way that he drove
0:28:19 business, I thought was
0:28:20 really creative.
0:28:22 It created a lot of Q&A
0:28:24 content for future D.C.
0:28:25 travelers.
0:28:26 Like, how does the metro
0:28:28 work in D.C.?
0:28:29 Or what is the best time to
0:28:30 visit the Lincoln Memorial?
0:28:32 And come on and say, hey,
0:28:33 I’m Rob.
0:28:34 I, you know, I run this
0:28:35 tour company or walking
0:28:36 tours in D.C.
0:28:38 And, and here’s the
0:28:38 answer to your question.
0:28:40 Like fill in the gap with
0:28:41 that and really well done
0:28:42 content.
0:28:43 But, you know, like all
0:28:45 things, uh, in content
0:28:46 marketing, a certain
0:28:47 percentage of those people
0:28:48 were like, I really like
0:28:48 Rob.
0:28:49 I want to book his tour
0:28:50 when I go on this trip.
0:28:51 And so targeting these
0:28:52 like future, you know,
0:28:54 high buyer intent type of
0:28:55 keywords, like beyond what
0:28:56 are the best things to do
0:28:57 or just, you could
0:28:58 probably any number of
0:28:59 different keyword tools or
0:29:01 answer the public or
0:29:02 something, something to
0:29:02 figure out what questions
0:29:04 are people asking on their
0:29:05 way to, it probably works
0:29:07 better if you’re targeting
0:29:08 a specific location like
0:29:10 he was, but an interesting
0:29:11 way to get in front of
0:29:11 new customers.
0:29:12 You’re absolutely right.
0:29:13 And again, it’s about
0:29:14 just building that trust.
0:29:15 I mean, when it comes
0:29:16 down to booking that
0:29:17 tour, are you going to
0:29:18 book with this individual
0:29:19 who gave you all the
0:29:20 answers to your questions
0:29:22 and seemed super helpful
0:29:23 and honest and
0:29:24 trustworthy, or are you
0:29:25 going to book with kind
0:29:27 of a faceless company
0:29:29 that you’re not really
0:29:29 sure if you can trust
0:29:30 them because the reviews
0:29:32 are only 3.5, you
0:29:34 know, it’s a no
0:29:34 brainer at the end of
0:29:35 the day.
0:29:36 Yeah, how do you
0:29:37 break down those no
0:29:38 like and trust barriers
0:29:40 as quickly as you can?
0:29:41 Anything else you found
0:29:42 effective on the
0:29:43 marketing side?
0:29:44 Well, like you
0:29:45 mentioned, there’s always
0:29:46 the online strategies as
0:29:47 well, creating a
0:29:48 location specific Facebook
0:29:50 group or, you know,
0:29:52 travelers or people who
0:29:53 want to travel to Japan
0:29:54 type Facebook group or
0:29:54 things like that, or
0:29:55 even online events.
0:29:56 If you’re not able to
0:29:58 do them in person, you
0:29:59 can host these sort of
0:30:00 online info sessions that
0:30:01 you can record and then
0:30:02 post on your YouTube,
0:30:03 things like that,
0:30:05 creating this library of
0:30:06 content are all going
0:30:07 to ultimately, you know,
0:30:08 help you.
0:30:08 Got it.
0:30:09 Actually, we were just on
0:30:11 the Reddit forums about
0:30:12 Japan last night.
0:30:13 Like, how do the train
0:30:14 cards work?
0:30:15 Can you get the kids
0:30:16 discounted train card at
0:30:16 the airport?
0:30:18 And there’s a lot of
0:30:19 questions out there on the
0:30:20 internet that are probably
0:30:21 ripe for you to answer.
0:30:22 if it’s a topic you’re
0:30:23 knowledgeable on.
0:30:24 I have seen a couple
0:30:26 people who are actually
0:30:27 American expats who have
0:30:28 moved to different
0:30:30 countries and they’re
0:30:31 there for school or
0:30:32 something, but they’ve
0:30:33 ended up doing the travel
0:30:35 advising thing on the
0:30:37 side, I think, because
0:30:39 people want someone in the
0:30:40 country they can trust who
0:30:42 knows exactly how it
0:30:42 works.
0:30:43 So those are some people
0:30:44 that choose the location
0:30:46 specific niche as well.
0:30:46 Very good.
0:30:48 More with Bailey in just a
0:30:49 moment, including the tools
0:30:50 and tech that might be
0:30:51 helpful in running a
0:30:52 travel advising business,
0:30:54 the role AI can play, and
0:30:55 how to potentially score
0:30:56 your own discounted
0:30:56 trips.
0:30:58 Coming up right after
0:30:58 this.
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0:33:16 All right, that was a
0:33:17 ton of different ideas
0:33:18 on how to generate
0:33:19 interest and potential
0:33:20 clients in your
0:33:21 services.
0:33:21 I think those are
0:33:22 great.
0:33:23 I wanted to ask, you
0:33:24 know, the percentage of
0:33:24 people that you’re
0:33:26 serving, you know,
0:33:27 remotely, is this like
0:33:28 an online only side
0:33:28 hustle?
0:33:29 Are people coming over
0:33:30 to your house or the
0:33:31 coffee shop and we’re
0:33:31 hammering out the
0:33:33 details of this itinerary?
0:33:34 What does it typically
0:33:34 look like?
0:33:35 I think in the
0:33:36 beginning it can be a
0:33:37 little bit more face to
0:33:38 face, especially as
0:33:39 you’re working with those
0:33:40 friends and family who
0:33:42 likely live with, you
0:33:44 know, within 10 miles of
0:33:44 you probably, at least
0:33:45 that’s how it definitely
0:33:46 was for me.
0:33:48 And I do enjoy that
0:33:49 element of it, you know,
0:33:51 working with my uncle who
0:33:52 wants to go to Costa Rica,
0:33:54 sitting down at his house
0:33:55 and, you know, going over
0:33:56 in person, all the
0:33:56 different things.
0:33:58 Because one of the
0:33:59 greatest things we can do
0:34:00 for our clients is help to
0:34:01 get them excited, right?
0:34:02 And say, don’t worry, I’ve
0:34:03 got you, this is going to
0:34:04 be so fun.
0:34:05 Oh, I’m already thinking
0:34:06 of all these great ideas,
0:34:06 right?
0:34:07 And make sure, again,
0:34:08 you’re building that
0:34:08 trust.
0:34:10 But naturally, if you want
0:34:10 to really grow your
0:34:11 business, you’re going to
0:34:12 end up working with
0:34:13 clients who don’t live
0:34:15 within 10 miles of you
0:34:16 and who are not related
0:34:17 to you or that you do
0:34:17 not know.
0:34:19 And so that’s when all of
0:34:20 the online infrastructure
0:34:22 really starts to come
0:34:23 into play.
0:34:24 And so for that, you’re
0:34:26 going to need things like
0:34:27 a website, scheduling
0:34:29 software, you know, tools
0:34:30 to be able to really run
0:34:31 your online business.
0:34:32 And we can go into
0:34:33 those if you’d like.
0:34:34 Yeah, if you’re doing,
0:34:35 you know, onesie, twosie
0:34:37 trips at a time, it’s
0:34:38 probably relatively
0:34:40 straightforward to keep
0:34:41 track of in Google
0:34:43 Docs or Google Sheets or
0:34:43 something like that.
0:34:45 But if all of a sudden
0:34:46 you’re juggling multiple
0:34:47 different itineraries,
0:34:48 multiple different
0:34:50 locations, now it gets
0:34:51 a little bit more
0:34:52 difficult to juggle in
0:34:53 your mind.
0:34:54 Anything you found
0:34:55 useful on the tools
0:34:56 tech organization side?
0:34:57 Yeah, absolutely.
0:34:59 There’s actually a large
0:35:00 number of tools
0:35:01 specifically designed
0:35:03 for travel advisors.
0:35:04 The most important one
0:35:05 you’re going to need if
0:35:06 your host agency, again,
0:35:07 doesn’t provide something
0:35:09 for you is a CRM, a
0:35:10 customer relationship
0:35:11 management software, which
0:35:12 is where you’re going to
0:35:13 keep track of all of your
0:35:15 clients’ information and
0:35:17 where they’re at in the
0:35:18 process of working with
0:35:19 you on their trip.
0:35:21 And so a few famous ones
0:35:23 are Travify, Travel Joy,
0:35:26 or Tern, T-E-R-N, super
0:35:28 popular, very common.
0:35:29 But it should be noted
0:35:31 that not all CRM
0:35:33 softwares for travel
0:35:35 advisors have an
0:35:36 itinerary builder
0:35:38 component, which is
0:35:38 something you’ll
0:35:39 definitely want to
0:35:40 invest in as well.
0:35:41 So if your CRM
0:35:42 doesn’t, you might need
0:35:43 to get that separately.
0:35:45 A really popular one is
0:35:47 Safari Portal creates
0:35:48 beautiful online
0:35:49 itineraries where you can
0:35:50 upload lots of pictures,
0:35:51 show people what they’re
0:35:53 going to be doing day by
0:35:54 day because when you
0:35:55 deliver that first
0:35:57 edition, that first
0:35:58 version of the
0:36:00 proposed itinerary, you
0:36:00 really want to make it
0:36:01 your best.
0:36:02 You really want to knock
0:36:03 their socks off and you
0:36:04 want to make it visual.
0:36:06 Show people exactly what
0:36:07 they’re going to be doing.
0:36:08 Oh, you’re going to be
0:36:09 going to an ethical no
0:36:11 touch observatory
0:36:12 elephant sanctuary?
0:36:13 Well, what are you going
0:36:13 to do?
0:36:14 You’re going to put
0:36:15 pictures of these really
0:36:16 cool elephants, you
0:36:17 know, bathing in a
0:36:18 local stream so people
0:36:19 can start to visualize
0:36:20 what their trip is
0:36:21 really going to look
0:36:21 like.
0:36:22 So in the beginning,
0:36:23 when you’re trying to
0:36:24 do this all very
0:36:26 inexpensively, I have
0:36:28 even seen people build
0:36:29 itineraries in Canva.
0:36:31 Obviously, that’s not
0:36:32 going to work at scale.
0:36:33 You know, that would be
0:36:34 very tiring to try to
0:36:35 manage.
0:36:35 Yeah, if you’re moving
0:36:36 stuff around, like it
0:36:37 could get a little
0:36:38 trickier, but visually
0:36:39 it’ll look nice.
0:36:40 Yeah, exactly.
0:36:41 Well, the CRM
0:36:42 softwares and things
0:36:43 allow you to have
0:36:44 different features that
0:36:45 you might really like.
0:36:46 So, for example, if
0:36:47 somebody goes in and
0:36:49 requests a change to a
0:36:49 certain part of the
0:36:51 itinerary, you can make
0:36:51 that change and then you
0:36:52 can ask them to
0:36:53 approve it in the
0:36:55 CRM software so you
0:36:55 have evidence that they
0:36:56 approved the change,
0:36:57 right?
0:36:58 So these are some
0:36:58 advanced things that
0:36:59 would be really nice to
0:37:00 have if you’re taking
0:37:01 your business, you
0:37:02 know, seriously and
0:37:02 you’re looking to grow
0:37:03 and expand and you’re
0:37:04 trying to be efficient
0:37:05 and keep track of all
0:37:05 this stuff.
0:37:07 In the beginning, when
0:37:08 you have less capital
0:37:08 and you’re really
0:37:09 trying to do it
0:37:11 inexpensively, use the
0:37:11 tools that are
0:37:12 available to you.
0:37:14 imagine AI could be a
0:37:15 helpful planning tool
0:37:16 like, hey, give me a
0:37:18 five-day itinerary to
0:37:19 London that would be
0:37:20 good for a
0:37:21 honeymooning couple
0:37:22 and, you know, fill in
0:37:23 a few more qualifying
0:37:24 prompts here.
0:37:26 To what extent is AI a
0:37:27 threat to the travel
0:37:28 advising business?
0:37:30 Well, if I just throw
0:37:31 in a few prompts, it’s
0:37:32 going to tell me where
0:37:33 to go, what time, you
0:37:34 know, where to stay.
0:37:34 Like, it’s going to
0:37:35 throw out all these
0:37:36 recommendations and
0:37:37 potentially cut you
0:37:37 out of the picture.
0:37:39 It’s possible, but I
0:37:41 like to think that those
0:37:42 people who are using
0:37:43 AI are not really my
0:37:44 ideal client anyway.
0:37:45 The people that are
0:37:47 going to work with me
0:37:48 are either people that
0:37:49 are not that tech
0:37:50 savvy, people that
0:37:51 don’t have the time to
0:37:52 organize these trips, so
0:37:53 even if they had an
0:37:55 itinerary, they don’t
0:37:56 know how or where to
0:37:58 book it, they are not
0:37:58 as experienced in
0:37:59 travel, so they don’t
0:38:00 know everything that
0:38:01 can fall through the
0:38:02 cracks, they want
0:38:03 someone to guide them
0:38:04 through the process of
0:38:05 obtaining all their
0:38:06 travel documents and
0:38:07 things like that.
0:38:08 My issues with AI
0:38:10 aren’t that it can be a
0:38:10 useful tool for
0:38:11 people that want to
0:38:12 discover interesting
0:38:13 travel things, but
0:38:16 AI doesn’t think, it’s
0:38:17 not a human, it can
0:38:18 only regurgitate the
0:38:18 information that’s
0:38:20 already inside of it,
0:38:21 and so if you are
0:38:23 going to want to have,
0:38:23 as you said earlier,
0:38:25 the best trip possible
0:38:26 because you’re spending
0:38:27 all this money, then
0:38:28 you want to go with
0:38:29 somebody who actually
0:38:31 has been there or
0:38:32 knows the area well or
0:38:33 has all the
0:38:34 connections because
0:38:35 another thing that
0:38:36 that AI is not going
0:38:37 to do, just to give
0:38:38 you an example, it’s
0:38:39 not going to say, oh,
0:38:41 I actually happen to
0:38:42 know the name and
0:38:43 the WhatsApp number of
0:38:45 a private driver who
0:38:46 I’ve actually worked
0:38:47 with before in
0:38:48 Colombia, totally
0:38:49 trustworthy, I’m going
0:38:50 to go and message him
0:38:51 right now, right?
0:38:52 The only thing that AI
0:38:54 can really do is give
0:38:55 you the name of a
0:38:56 company that, you know,
0:38:57 you might have already
0:38:58 been able to find
0:38:59 through Googling
0:39:00 anyway, and again,
0:39:00 you know, how do you
0:39:01 know if that person is
0:39:02 trustworthy or not,
0:39:03 right?
0:39:04 I use that example
0:39:06 because I was
0:39:07 recommended to somebody
0:39:08 else to use a man
0:39:09 named Oscar whenever I
0:39:11 was traveling down in
0:39:12 Colombia by myself and
0:39:13 needed somebody to drive
0:39:14 me around to show me the
0:39:15 sites and who I could
0:39:16 trust, and he was
0:39:17 fantastic, would
0:39:18 recommend him every time.
0:39:19 You’re not going to get
0:39:20 that from AI.
0:39:21 Right, he’s not going to
0:39:22 show up in a Google
0:39:23 search.
0:39:24 Right, no, he does not
0:39:25 have a website, right?
0:39:27 In all parts of the
0:39:29 world, these, you know,
0:39:30 travel services and
0:39:31 suppliers aren’t
0:39:32 necessarily as, you
0:39:34 know, professional or
0:39:35 as formal as we might
0:39:35 like to think.
0:39:36 Sometimes it is really
0:39:37 built on those
0:39:38 relationships.
0:39:39 Yeah, those
0:39:39 relationships are what
0:39:41 can lead to hopefully
0:39:42 recurring customers
0:39:43 coming back for their
0:39:45 vacation or their trip
0:39:46 year after year, where
0:39:47 it’s, you know, maybe
0:39:49 you waive that planning
0:39:51 fee up front to get
0:39:54 some reps in and down
0:39:55 the road, that can turn
0:39:57 into a, I imagine the
0:39:58 lifetime value of a
0:39:58 customer in this
0:39:59 business can be pretty
0:40:00 big if people have, you
0:40:01 know, 20, 30 years of
0:40:02 their traveling life
0:40:03 ahead of them.
0:40:03 Absolutely.
0:40:05 And one thing we haven’t
0:40:06 really talked about yet
0:40:07 as well, but really goes
0:40:08 into why you would want
0:40:09 to work with a travel
0:40:10 advisor and making sure
0:40:11 those clients come back
0:40:13 is the support that you
0:40:14 can provide to that
0:40:15 person while they’re
0:40:16 traveling.
0:40:17 And so one of the
0:40:18 things that we as
0:40:19 travel advisors do
0:40:20 before someone leaves
0:40:21 for their trip is try
0:40:23 to prepare them in
0:40:24 every way possible so
0:40:25 they don’t have to
0:40:26 contact us as much
0:40:27 because we want them
0:40:28 to be able to
0:40:30 resolve any issues on
0:40:31 the ground immediately
0:40:32 if we are not
0:40:33 instantly available.
0:40:35 But that being said,
0:40:37 very often somebody
0:40:39 will message us on
0:40:40 the trip, you know,
0:40:41 oh, my flight was
0:40:42 just delayed, you
0:40:43 know, I’ve already
0:40:45 talked to the flight
0:40:45 attendant or the
0:40:47 person at the counter
0:40:48 about it, but what
0:40:49 happens when I get
0:40:50 into country?
0:40:50 Are they going to know
0:40:51 my flight is delayed?
0:40:52 You know, they just,
0:40:53 they have these concerns
0:40:55 and we give them
0:40:56 documents, we give them
0:40:57 phone numbers, we say,
0:40:57 oh, well, if you
0:40:58 need to call the
0:40:59 airport pickup people,
0:41:00 this is who you call.
0:41:02 But so often they’re
0:41:03 going to come back to
0:41:04 us because we are the
0:41:05 ones that they trust.
0:41:05 Okay.
0:41:07 It’s just a little bit
0:41:07 of hand-holding.
0:41:08 Somebody called it a
0:41:09 handler where it’s like,
0:41:10 I just, I want to show
0:41:11 up and I want it to be
0:41:13 the easy button where,
0:41:13 you know, the person is
0:41:14 waiting for me at the
0:41:15 airport and just, just
0:41:16 things work.
0:41:17 And it’s like a
0:41:18 different kind of travel
0:41:19 than the more like
0:41:20 adventure travel.
0:41:20 We’re going to go
0:41:21 figure out the public
0:41:21 transport.
0:41:22 It was like, you know,
0:41:23 serving a different
0:41:24 client base.
0:41:25 So we mentioned the
0:41:26 upfront travel fees,
0:41:27 either, you know, flat
0:41:28 fee based on the
0:41:30 itinerary option, you
0:41:31 know, to waive that if
0:41:33 you want early on or a,
0:41:34 you know, dollars per
0:41:36 day, you know, $50 per
0:41:38 day will help map out
0:41:39 your, your two-week
0:41:39 thing.
0:41:41 The commissions on
0:41:42 hotels, rental cars,
0:41:43 tours, experiences,
0:41:45 travel insurance,
0:41:46 anything else on the
0:41:47 revenue side that we
0:41:48 missed or other
0:41:49 opportunities that, that
0:41:50 you see for travel
0:41:50 advisors?
0:41:51 Well, as far as the
0:41:53 travel advising services
0:41:54 go, that’s pretty much
0:41:55 the main two revenue
0:41:56 sources.
0:41:57 But I will say that some
0:41:59 travel advisors branch out
0:42:00 beyond that into things
0:42:02 like selling online
0:42:03 guidebooks or, you know,
0:42:05 travel coaching or
0:42:06 something where they
0:42:07 will actually teach or
0:42:08 like charge for
0:42:09 workshops about, you
0:42:10 know, passports and all
0:42:11 this sort of stuff.
0:42:12 So there are other sort
0:42:13 of tangential revenue
0:42:15 streams related to being a
0:42:17 travel expert, I’ll say.
0:42:17 Got it.
0:42:18 Got it.
0:42:18 Okay.
0:42:19 If you’re the go-to
0:42:19 expert for this
0:42:20 particular location,
0:42:22 you know, just, you
0:42:22 know, download my
0:42:24 guidebook, you know,
0:42:25 it’s, it’s the Rick
0:42:26 Steves playbook.
0:42:26 Yeah.
0:42:27 You can book the tour
0:42:28 or you can buy the, uh,
0:42:29 the guidebook or, you
0:42:30 know, watch the free
0:42:32 content on PBS or
0:42:33 YouTube or whatever it
0:42:34 is in this case.
0:42:36 What, what kind of
0:42:38 mistakes or what, what
0:42:40 separates the people
0:42:41 who pay the $300 fee
0:42:42 to Fora and then never
0:42:43 do anything with it
0:42:45 versus the people who
0:42:45 start to see success
0:42:46 with this business?
0:42:48 It really all comes
0:42:50 down to being willing to
0:42:51 put yourself out there
0:42:52 and willing to
0:42:53 advertise and market
0:42:54 yourself and get
0:42:55 those clients.
0:42:57 So I do often see in
0:42:58 the community that
0:43:00 people will say, you
0:43:00 know, I, I just
0:43:02 started with this, you
0:43:03 know, three months
0:43:04 ago, six months ago,
0:43:05 and I’m having a little
0:43:06 bit of trouble getting
0:43:07 some clients.
0:43:08 And when you dig a
0:43:09 little deeper and you
0:43:10 ask them, what have
0:43:11 they done?
0:43:12 Well, the truth is they
0:43:13 really haven’t done
0:43:13 much, right?
0:43:14 They told their
0:43:15 friends, they told
0:43:16 their family, and
0:43:17 that’s kind of it.
0:43:18 So they haven’t
0:43:19 bothered to set up
0:43:20 any website, any
0:43:22 social media pages.
0:43:22 They’re not posting
0:43:23 regular content.
0:43:25 They haven’t tried to
0:43:26 do any of these events
0:43:27 like we were talking
0:43:27 about.
0:43:28 Maybe they haven’t,
0:43:29 you know, waived that
0:43:31 planning fee and done a
0:43:32 couple of trips for free
0:43:33 up front in order to get
0:43:34 those testimonials.
0:43:35 They don’t have any
0:43:36 systems.
0:43:37 They’re not doing any
0:43:38 email marketing.
0:43:38 You know, they don’t
0:43:40 have a free travel guide
0:43:42 PDF for people to get
0:43:42 on their list.
0:43:44 And they, in some
0:43:45 cases, not all, but in
0:43:46 some cases, people
0:43:47 think that the host
0:43:48 agency is just going to
0:43:49 feed you the customers.
0:43:50 And that’s not the
0:43:51 case.
0:43:51 That’s not what the
0:43:53 host agency is there
0:43:53 for.
0:43:54 Okay, yeah, yeah, yeah.
0:43:56 It is true that in
0:43:57 some cases, and this
0:43:58 isn’t for all host
0:44:00 agencies, but it can be
0:44:01 true that if you prove
0:44:02 yourself to be one of
0:44:04 the top earners, that
0:44:05 sometimes host agencies
0:44:06 get leads, and of
0:44:07 course, they’re going to
0:44:07 give them to their best
0:44:09 agents because they want
0:44:09 to have the best
0:44:10 reputation.
0:44:11 So if you have just
0:44:12 started and you’ve
0:44:13 really not made that
0:44:15 many sales, ultimately,
0:44:16 you’re not going to
0:44:17 be getting a ton of
0:44:18 leads from the host
0:44:19 agency, so you can’t
0:44:20 rely on them, and
0:44:21 that’s an important
0:44:22 thing to acknowledge.
0:44:23 Are they going to
0:44:23 kick you out if you
0:44:25 don’t book anything, or
0:44:26 if you only book your
0:44:27 own travels, like, oh,
0:44:28 could I just get an
0:44:30 8% to 10% discount on
0:44:31 my own stuff if I pay
0:44:32 this membership and
0:44:33 spend more than $300
0:44:35 or whatever the math
0:44:36 is on the commission
0:44:37 on that?
0:44:38 That’s a really great
0:44:39 question, and we call
0:44:40 that self-booking.
0:44:41 Every host agency is
0:44:42 going to have their own
0:44:43 policy, so you’re going
0:44:44 to have to refer to
0:44:44 that.
0:44:46 It’s not uncommon to
0:44:46 book some travel for
0:44:48 yourself, especially in
0:44:48 the beginning.
0:44:49 It’s a stepping stone to
0:44:50 learning.
0:44:51 If you’re booking your
0:44:52 entire family’s vacation
0:44:53 and you’re going, of
0:44:55 course, you’re going to
0:44:55 be the one that’s
0:44:56 booking on your
0:44:57 family’s behalf.
0:44:58 There’s no problem with
0:44:58 that, really.
0:44:59 That’s not a big deal.
0:45:01 But if you are only
0:45:03 doing self-bookings,
0:45:04 there’s usually going to
0:45:05 be some sort of issue.
0:45:06 So there might be a
0:45:08 policy that says, look,
0:45:09 within the first six
0:45:10 months of you joining,
0:45:11 you have to book for at
0:45:12 least one other person.
0:45:14 It can be your mom, but
0:45:15 it just, it can’t be
0:45:16 under your name.
0:45:18 My experience has been
0:45:20 that the policies are not
0:45:21 difficult to adhere to.
0:45:23 So I just want to
0:45:24 reassure people that might
0:45:26 be thinking, well, I
0:45:27 can’t get started because
0:45:28 I can’t guarantee I’m
0:45:29 going to have 17 new
0:45:30 clients in the first
0:45:30 month.
0:45:33 We’re not talking those
0:45:33 big numbers here.
0:45:34 Yeah.
0:45:35 Do you get to write off
0:45:36 every trip that you take
0:45:37 as, you know, legit
0:45:38 research for your
0:45:38 business?
0:45:40 That is a great
0:45:41 question.
0:45:43 Now, I am not a lawyer
0:45:44 or tax expert, so I
0:45:45 don’t want to say
0:45:45 anything specific.
0:45:47 But what I can point
0:45:48 you to is a really
0:45:48 great guy.
0:45:49 He actually has a
0:45:50 website called
0:45:52 taxesfortravelagents.com.
0:45:52 His name is Andy
0:45:53 Rood.
0:45:55 He specializes in
0:45:56 doing this and that
0:45:57 I’m in that Facebook
0:45:57 group.
0:45:58 He gets that question
0:45:59 a lot.
0:46:00 So you should
0:46:01 definitely check with
0:46:01 your tax professionals.
0:46:02 Some of it may be,
0:46:03 but I just want to let
0:46:05 people know that if you
0:46:05 are a frequent traveler
0:46:06 thinking, oh, I can
0:46:07 just write all of this
0:46:07 off.
0:46:09 In fact, Andy just
0:46:10 shared a couple of
0:46:11 weeks ago a blog post
0:46:12 that he had written
0:46:13 that was about an
0:46:14 actual case.
0:46:14 It was a case study
0:46:15 that is going through
0:46:16 right now where a
0:46:17 U.S. citizen quit his
0:46:19 job and went to travel
0:46:19 around the world.
0:46:20 I don’t think he was a
0:46:21 travel advisor
0:46:21 specifically, but he
0:46:22 was going to write
0:46:23 books and sell e-books
0:46:25 and he really never
0:46:26 really followed through
0:46:27 with writing the books
0:46:28 and making any money,
0:46:30 but he tried to write
0:46:30 off all these travel
0:46:31 expenses and the IRS
0:46:32 said no because you
0:46:33 weren’t really running
0:46:34 a business and it
0:46:35 wasn’t really, you
0:46:36 know, part of it.
0:46:36 You’re like, maybe I
0:46:37 just suck at running
0:46:37 a business.
0:46:39 It’s just, you know,
0:46:40 there’s some startup
0:46:41 costs involved, some
0:46:42 market research involved.
0:46:44 I had the best
0:46:44 intentions.
0:46:45 I don’t want to get
0:46:46 anybody in trouble
0:46:47 with tax law.
0:46:48 The IRS really wants
0:46:48 to know that you’re,
0:46:49 you know, you’re taking
0:46:50 your business seriously
0:46:51 and not everything is
0:46:52 going to be, you know,
0:46:52 able to be written
0:46:53 off just because it’s
0:46:54 travel and you run a
0:46:55 travel business, I
0:46:55 think is the bottom
0:46:56 line.
0:46:57 But you bring up an
0:46:58 interesting point and
0:46:59 something I did want to
0:47:00 mention here, which is
0:47:01 FAM trips.
0:47:03 so FAM trips, that’s
0:47:05 short for familiarization
0:47:06 trips and this is
0:47:07 something that a travel
0:47:09 advisor can go on in
0:47:10 order to learn more
0:47:12 about a specific vendor
0:47:13 or location.
0:47:15 And so these are trips
0:47:16 that are sometimes, I
0:47:17 want to say sometimes
0:47:19 free, but often it’s
0:47:19 usually that maybe your
0:47:21 hotel gets comped or
0:47:21 something and you still
0:47:23 have to do the actual,
0:47:24 like, you have to pay for
0:47:24 the flight and stuff like
0:47:25 that there.
0:47:26 But ultimately these
0:47:27 are going to be trips
0:47:28 that you can take that
0:47:29 are organized by the
0:47:30 supplier or by something
0:47:32 called a DMO, a
0:47:32 destination marketing
0:47:33 organization.
0:47:34 You know, you’ve seen
0:47:35 ads for like Tourism
0:47:36 Cancun or whatever,
0:47:36 right?
0:47:38 So those types of
0:47:39 organizations that are
0:47:40 trying to increase
0:47:41 tourism to an area,
0:47:43 they might host these
0:47:44 types of trips.
0:47:44 Oh, okay.
0:47:46 Sometimes they do them
0:47:47 for cruises as well so
0:47:49 that you can come and
0:47:49 you can learn.
0:47:50 Yeah, how do you get
0:47:51 on the list for these?
0:47:51 That’s a great
0:47:52 question.
0:47:53 So there’s a couple
0:47:53 different ways.
0:47:54 So there are some
0:47:56 websites that just
0:47:57 specialize in doing
0:47:58 fam trips.
0:47:59 So I forget what the
0:48:01 exact website name is,
0:48:01 but there’s like
0:48:03 fam trips Mexico you
0:48:04 can go to and you
0:48:05 can see the different
0:48:06 vendors and, you know,
0:48:07 it might not be free,
0:48:07 but it could be a
0:48:08 reduced cost or
0:48:09 something like that.
0:48:10 And there’s usually
0:48:11 some sort of itinerary
0:48:12 where they’re going to
0:48:13 do a hotel tour.
0:48:14 They’re going to show
0:48:14 you all of the
0:48:15 different things and
0:48:16 talk to you about the
0:48:16 hotel and they might
0:48:17 have one evening
0:48:18 activity for you to
0:48:19 mingle with other
0:48:19 travel advisors.
0:48:21 But you might also be
0:48:22 able to get fam trips
0:48:23 through your host agency.
0:48:24 Again, you know,
0:48:25 do not expect this
0:48:26 if you just joined and
0:48:27 you’ve not made any
0:48:27 sales.
0:48:28 You know, these are
0:48:29 things that they’re
0:48:29 going to be giving to
0:48:30 people who have really
0:48:32 dedicated themselves to
0:48:32 growing their business
0:48:33 and proven themselves.
0:48:34 But you can also
0:48:36 contact the DMOs
0:48:37 directly.
0:48:38 So you can contact
0:48:38 vendors and you can
0:48:40 contact DMOs and you
0:48:40 can tell them who you
0:48:41 are and what you
0:48:42 specialize in and that
0:48:43 this is something that
0:48:44 you’d really like to
0:48:44 pursue.
0:48:46 Even if you’re not
0:48:47 doing an official fam
0:48:48 trip, you as a travel
0:48:49 advisor, you can
0:48:50 often contact the
0:48:51 business development
0:48:52 manager, the BDM,
0:48:54 at a hotel or, you
0:48:55 know, some sort of
0:48:56 tour agency and you
0:48:57 can say, I’m a travel
0:48:58 advisor, this is my
0:48:59 website, this is my
0:49:01 business, I’m this is
0:49:02 my I add a number, I’m
0:49:03 with host agency, you
0:49:05 know, this and I’m
0:49:06 going to be planning a
0:49:07 family trip to Cancun
0:49:08 this weekend just
0:49:10 because, but I and
0:49:11 we’re you don’t even
0:49:12 have to be staying at
0:49:13 their hotel.
0:49:13 You could say, you
0:49:13 know, we’re staying
0:49:15 down the street, but I
0:49:16 know that you are a
0:49:18 preferred partner with
0:49:19 our host agency.
0:49:20 I was wondering if you
0:49:21 wouldn’t mind if I
0:49:21 came over and you
0:49:22 could give me a quick
0:49:23 tour.
0:49:24 This business is all
0:49:25 about building
0:49:25 relationships.
0:49:28 And so if you can, you
0:49:29 know, establish yourself
0:49:29 as, hey, I’m going to be
0:49:30 the Cancun expert.
0:49:32 I want to I want my
0:49:33 name to be known with
0:49:34 all the hotels in
0:49:35 Cancun so that when I
0:49:37 call and I say I have a
0:49:38 VIP client, what can we
0:49:38 do for them?
0:49:39 You know, they’re going
0:49:40 to they’re going to want
0:49:41 to up the perks and make
0:49:42 sure it’s a really good
0:49:43 experience for them.
0:49:44 I like this strategy
0:49:45 becoming known,
0:49:47 becoming the go to
0:49:48 person, you know,
0:49:49 building relationships
0:49:50 with the people on the
0:49:50 ground.
0:49:52 And even if it’s not
0:49:53 a tax hack, sorry, that
0:49:54 was a total tangent.
0:49:55 But I was like, wait a
0:49:56 minute, if I start an
0:49:57 Instagram account about,
0:49:59 you know, travel family
0:50:00 stuff like is does that
0:50:01 mean I could just write
0:50:02 off everything?
0:50:03 But yeah, if only
0:50:04 that’s the wheels, the
0:50:05 wheels get spinning here.
0:50:05 Bailey, this has been
0:50:06 this has been great.
0:50:07 Anything that’s surprised
0:50:08 you the most over the
0:50:09 last couple of years of
0:50:10 doing this?
0:50:11 Well, to be honest, I
0:50:12 was surprised you could
0:50:13 get paid for doing this.
0:50:15 I planned my best
0:50:16 friend’s honeymoon.
0:50:17 I planned my dad’s
0:50:19 lifelong dream trip to
0:50:19 Montana.
0:50:20 I was with Engineers
0:50:21 Without Borders for a
0:50:22 while and I planned
0:50:23 three different trips to
0:50:23 Kenya.
0:50:25 I got to go on one of
0:50:25 those trips.
0:50:27 So truthfully, it was an
0:50:28 absolutely, you know,
0:50:29 incredible way to
0:50:30 practice these skills, but
0:50:31 I wasn’t getting paid
0:50:31 for them.
0:50:33 I was just doing it
0:50:33 because I love travel
0:50:35 and I just I was like
0:50:36 you had kept saying I
0:50:37 was the go to travel
0:50:38 person in my friends and
0:50:38 family group.
0:50:39 everyone always wanted
0:50:40 my opinion because I
0:50:42 was always even when I
0:50:43 had no money, I was,
0:50:43 you know, backpacking
0:50:44 around Europe and I was
0:50:45 trying to do things to
0:50:47 feed that travel passion
0:50:47 of mine.
0:50:49 And so it wasn’t until
0:50:51 2023 when I really
0:50:52 learned about the travel
0:50:53 advising industry.
0:50:54 I knew what a travel
0:50:55 agent was, of course,
0:50:56 but sure, sure.
0:50:57 I always talk about my
0:50:58 big fat Greek wedding
0:50:59 where Tula, you know,
0:51:00 is becoming a travel
0:51:02 advisor or travel agent
0:51:02 at the time.
0:51:04 And she’s like sitting
0:51:05 in this little building
0:51:05 with, you know, the
0:51:06 big windows on Main
0:51:07 Street and she’s got
0:51:08 this huge desktop
0:51:09 computer and she’s
0:51:10 wearing a headset and
0:51:11 she’s like talking to
0:51:12 people about cruise
0:51:12 packages.
0:51:13 And I was like,
0:51:14 that’s cool.
0:51:15 That’s not really what
0:51:17 I kind of want to do.
0:51:19 And so I had no idea
0:51:20 that the industry had
0:51:21 changed so much, right?
0:51:22 That we were
0:51:23 independent contractors,
0:51:24 not employees, that
0:51:25 you could set up your
0:51:26 own, you know, business
0:51:27 identity even while
0:51:28 you’re a part of this
0:51:29 host agency.
0:51:30 So I get to be a part
0:51:31 of Fora, but I have
0:51:32 unlisted travel.com,
0:51:33 which is where I run
0:51:34 everything in my
0:51:34 business.
0:51:35 They could be fully
0:51:36 remote, that I can
0:51:37 work with clients
0:51:38 outside of who’s in
0:51:39 my local town, that
0:51:40 I can sell the travel
0:51:41 that I want to.
0:51:42 That’s what we call it
0:51:42 sometimes is that we’re
0:51:43 selling travel.
0:51:44 You know, you get to
0:51:45 focus on the types of
0:51:47 trips and things that
0:51:48 you’re passionate about.
0:51:49 So all of this
0:51:50 surprised me because I
0:51:51 basically was like, I
0:51:51 could have been getting
0:51:52 paid for this for 10
0:51:54 years and I didn’t know.
0:51:57 And so when I kind of
0:51:58 dived into it, I didn’t
0:51:59 know how the industry
0:52:00 worked at all.
0:52:01 You know, I have been
0:52:02 an online entrepreneur
0:52:03 for a long time, but
0:52:04 this was a totally new
0:52:05 field.
0:52:06 I think that’s a
0:52:07 great marker.
0:52:10 If you’re already doing
0:52:11 something for free for
0:52:12 friends and family, it’s
0:52:13 like, wait, I can get
0:52:14 paid to do this at no
0:52:16 extra cost to the people
0:52:18 that I’m serving that’s
0:52:19 coming out of the hotel
0:52:20 in a lot of cases.
0:52:20 Yes.
0:52:21 That’s always a good
0:52:22 sign for potential side
0:52:23 hustles.
0:52:23 Like what are people
0:52:24 already naturally coming
0:52:26 to you for help with?
0:52:27 If it happens to be
0:52:28 travel, this seems like a
0:52:29 natural next step.
0:52:30 So you’ve got
0:52:32 unlisted travel.com.
0:52:33 If anybody wants help
0:52:34 planning an awesome
0:52:35 trip, go call Bailey.
0:52:36 You’ve got make travel
0:52:37 your job.com.
0:52:39 What’s next for you?
0:52:39 What are you excited
0:52:40 about this year?
0:52:41 I’m excited to keep
0:52:43 growing unlisted travel.com.
0:52:44 The truth is that’s kind
0:52:45 of a pretty new brand that
0:52:46 I’ve established because I
0:52:48 was just kind of doing
0:52:49 things inexpensively like
0:52:50 we talked about in the
0:52:51 beginning, serving the
0:52:52 friends and family and
0:52:53 realizing the niche that
0:52:54 I’m most passionate about.
0:52:56 So I’m excited to do
0:52:56 more.
0:52:57 I’d like to establish
0:52:59 myself as a travel
0:53:01 expert beyond my friends
0:53:02 and family group.
0:53:03 And so kind of teaching
0:53:04 people a little bit more
0:53:05 about travel through that
0:53:07 brand and then bringing
0:53:08 the world of travel
0:53:09 advising to others through
0:53:10 interviews like this,
0:53:10 which I’m really grateful
0:53:12 for to be able to show
0:53:13 people this incredible
0:53:13 industry.
0:53:15 I truly believe that there
0:53:16 are other people just
0:53:17 like me.
0:53:18 I mean, I’m a millennial,
0:53:19 so I definitely know that
0:53:20 there are other
0:53:21 millennials out there and
0:53:23 Gen Zers especially that
0:53:24 love to travel, wish they
0:53:25 could travel more maybe in
0:53:27 their own lives and would
0:53:28 love to find some way to
0:53:30 make it more a part of
0:53:30 their personal and
0:53:31 professional life, even if
0:53:33 they, like me, couldn’t
0:53:34 just, you know, up and
0:53:35 change careers and just
0:53:37 dedicate themselves to
0:53:37 flying around the world
0:53:39 like a like a pilot or
0:53:39 something like that.
0:53:41 Yeah, to be able to live
0:53:43 and breathe travel without
0:53:44 fully committing to a
0:53:46 digital nomad type of
0:53:47 lifestyle, realizing, well,
0:53:48 there’s constraints and
0:53:49 commitments, you know,
0:53:50 back here at home.
0:53:52 But here’s a way to still
0:53:53 make money from this
0:53:53 travel passion.
0:53:54 Well, this has been
0:53:54 awesome.
0:53:56 let’s wrap this thing
0:53:57 up with your number one
0:53:58 tip for Side Hustle
0:54:00 Nation 2025 edition, then
0:54:01 we’ll take a trip down
0:54:02 memory lane and revisit the
0:54:03 2016 advice.
0:54:05 This one is simple, but I
0:54:07 think it’s a good one.
0:54:08 Don’t buy that premium
0:54:09 domain.
0:54:10 Don’t do it.
0:54:11 It’s too expensive.
0:54:12 I was looking over my
0:54:13 books and I can’t even
0:54:14 tell you how many
0:54:16 thousands, thousands of
0:54:17 dollars that I have
0:54:19 wasted on not, I’m not
0:54:20 talking about buying like
0:54:21 20 domains that I
0:54:21 ultimately didn’t use.
0:54:22 I’m talking about buying
0:54:24 one or two or three
0:54:26 premium domains that
0:54:27 were thousands of
0:54:28 dollars for figures from
0:54:30 GoDaddy that at the end
0:54:31 of the day, I either
0:54:33 didn’t end up using or it
0:54:34 didn’t really pan out or
0:54:35 after I had bought the
0:54:36 domain, but then I got to
0:54:38 writing the website copy and
0:54:40 sort of realized the angle
0:54:41 that I was kind of going
0:54:42 for isn’t really going to
0:54:42 work.
0:54:43 What was your most
0:54:44 expensive domain?
0:54:46 My most expensive domain
0:54:49 ever was evergreenmachine.com
0:54:51 and I loved it so much
0:54:53 because of the cool rhyme.
0:54:54 It was simple and this is
0:54:56 when I was doing
0:54:57 evergreen marketing.
0:54:58 Like evergreen webinars
0:55:00 and like sales funnel type
0:55:00 of stuff?
0:55:01 Uh-huh, exactly.
0:55:03 And it was a very, I don’t
0:55:03 even want to tell you how
0:55:04 much it was.
0:55:05 It was so expensive.
0:55:06 And I did use it for
0:55:07 several years, but
0:55:08 ultimately at the end of
0:55:10 the day, like I just, I
0:55:12 could have built the same
0:55:14 platform on something else
0:55:15 and it would have been, or
0:55:15 I mean, could have just
0:55:17 bought the non.com version.
0:55:17 I could have just like
0:55:19 bought the .net or .co,
0:55:20 which I know, I know.
0:55:22 Like we all want the .com.
0:55:22 I do too.
0:55:23 Yeah, it’s like premium
0:55:24 digital real estate.
0:55:26 I know, I know.
0:55:26 But I think in the
0:55:27 beginning though, before you
0:55:28 have proof of concept,
0:55:29 like before you’re really
0:55:31 bring, you don’t even have
0:55:31 necessarily a minimum
0:55:32 viable product yet, or
0:55:33 you haven’t tested the
0:55:34 waters to like see if this
0:55:35 is going to have it, you
0:55:36 know, legs, if it’s
0:55:37 really going to like
0:55:39 actually stick with you
0:55:40 for, for years or
0:55:40 you’re really going to
0:55:42 be able to monetize it.
0:55:44 So my recommendation is
0:55:45 think long and hard about
0:55:46 the name and try to pick
0:55:48 something that you can
0:55:49 either get the .com
0:55:49 version when it’s not
0:55:51 premium 20 bucks, you
0:55:52 know, a year is like what
0:55:52 it should be, right?
0:55:55 But if you can’t, don’t
0:55:56 get so excited and buy
0:55:58 that four figure domain
0:55:59 before you’ve even ever
0:56:00 sold something because
0:56:01 now you’re just starting
0:56:03 in the red before you’ve
0:56:04 even really got up and
0:56:05 going.
0:56:06 That’s my opinion based
0:56:07 on personal experience.
0:56:09 I will, I will not be
0:56:09 doing that again.
0:56:11 No, this is, this is
0:56:11 great.
0:56:12 That came out of left
0:56:13 field, but we could talk
0:56:14 domain names in the
0:56:15 graveyard of GoDaddy
0:56:16 registrations.
0:56:17 And it’s like, well, that
0:56:18 project never went
0:56:19 anywhere or just never
0:56:20 dedicated the time to
0:56:21 that.
0:56:22 My most expensive is not
0:56:23 thousands, but it was
0:56:24 made two or three hundred
0:56:26 for like start my
0:56:27 side hustle.com or
0:56:28 something, something
0:56:28 side hustle related.
0:56:30 Side hustle nation was
0:56:30 already registered.
0:56:32 And so I had to pay, it
0:56:32 was only like a hundred
0:56:33 bucks.
0:56:34 Just approached the
0:56:35 previous owner of it.
0:56:36 But sometimes you get
0:56:37 married to that idea and
0:56:39 it is, it’s digital real
0:56:40 estate.
0:56:41 So, you know, hold on to
0:56:42 it long enough and pay
0:56:42 that registration fee.
0:56:44 Somebody else with an
0:56:45 evergreen machine, I
0:56:45 thought it was going to
0:56:47 be like a machine shop
0:56:48 in the Pacific Northwest.
0:56:49 Like we have like
0:56:50 evergreen fill in the
0:56:51 blank name of company.
0:56:52 It’s like super common
0:56:52 up here.
0:56:54 So somebody in the
0:56:55 Northwest will buy that
0:56:55 from you at some point.
0:56:56 Yeah.
0:56:59 2016 tip was related to
0:57:00 online courses and it was
0:57:01 to provide value, make it
0:57:04 a no brainer for, for
0:57:05 customers was like, just
0:57:07 I think it was in the
0:57:09 context of giving away so
0:57:09 much value for free.
0:57:10 Well, I can’t wait to
0:57:11 see what’s behind the
0:57:12 paywall.
0:57:13 I’ve built up so much
0:57:13 trust and authority and
0:57:15 credibility that, you
0:57:16 know, it’s a no brainer
0:57:16 for somebody to click that
0:57:18 buy button and, uh, and
0:57:19 keep doing business with
0:57:19 you.
0:57:20 I stand by it.
0:57:21 That’s excellent advice.
0:57:22 Pat myself on the back
0:57:23 for that one.
0:57:23 Yeah.
0:57:25 2016 Bailey was smart.
0:57:27 Well, I think it totally
0:57:28 applies to our conversation
0:57:29 here as well.
0:57:29 You know, everything we’re
0:57:30 talking about building the
0:57:31 know, like, and trust.
0:57:32 And I’ll just say this
0:57:33 related to that.
0:57:35 You know, so many
0:57:36 people, I think in the
0:57:37 travel advising space, I
0:57:39 have heard do get a little
0:57:40 frustrated sometimes that
0:57:41 now that they haven’t been
0:57:42 known as the go-to expert
0:57:44 for so long, giving away
0:57:45 their expertise, now
0:57:46 they’re going to monetize
0:57:46 it.
0:57:48 People still come to them
0:57:49 and say, oh, do you have
0:57:50 any recommendations for
0:57:51 Cancun or something like
0:57:51 that?
0:57:52 And then the travel
0:57:53 advisor, now a new
0:57:54 business owner, is kind
0:57:56 of like, well, I want to
0:57:57 gatekeep because if I just
0:57:58 give everything to you,
0:57:59 you’re going to book on
0:58:00 your own and that’s not
0:58:01 how this works anymore.
0:58:02 And I’m, you know,
0:58:02 creating a new business
0:58:04 model and I need people
0:58:04 around me to understand
0:58:05 that.
0:58:05 Yeah.
0:58:06 I totally, I totally get
0:58:07 that perspective.
0:58:09 Here’s my view on it.
0:58:10 I think two things.
0:58:11 First of all, communicate
0:58:13 how your business now
0:58:14 works, right?
0:58:15 And say, hey, you know, I’m
0:58:16 more than happy to share
0:58:18 with you everything I know
0:58:20 about Cancun, but if you
0:58:21 wouldn’t mind, you know,
0:58:22 could I help you with your
0:58:24 bookings because this is
0:58:25 how I get paid?
0:58:26 Because I just think
0:58:26 sometimes people aren’t
0:58:27 aware, right?
0:58:28 So they don’t realize
0:58:30 how you as the travel
0:58:31 advisor are missing out.
0:58:33 So I think that’s one
0:58:33 thing.
0:58:34 And then through that,
0:58:36 you can delight them,
0:58:36 right?
0:58:37 You can get them that
0:58:38 perks at the hotel they
0:58:39 weren’t expecting, put a
0:58:40 welcome, you know, gift of
0:58:41 champagne or something if
0:58:42 the hotel will work with
0:58:43 you on doing something
0:58:44 like that inside the room
0:58:46 when they arrive, you
0:58:47 know, those welcome
0:58:48 gifts can go so far.
0:58:48 And then make them
0:58:50 realize how working with
0:58:50 you in the future on
0:58:52 every trip is a no-brainer.
0:58:52 So I think that’s the
0:58:53 first part.
0:58:54 But the second part is,
0:58:56 it’s just like advice I
0:58:57 gave in 2016.
0:58:59 Just give so much
0:59:00 advice and value and
0:59:02 make yourself known as
0:59:03 the go-to person.
0:59:04 I think people get
0:59:05 hung up, especially
0:59:07 service providers, on
0:59:08 turning every lead into
0:59:09 a client.
0:59:10 Like they want a
0:59:10 hundred percent
0:59:12 conversion rate, right?
0:59:13 And that, in any
0:59:14 business, that’s not how
0:59:14 it works.
0:59:15 But in this business,
0:59:16 it’s not how it works
0:59:16 either.
0:59:18 Some people are just
0:59:19 ultimately, you know,
0:59:20 not going to be a
0:59:20 client.
0:59:21 Give them advice anyway
0:59:22 because word gets
0:59:23 around, right?
0:59:24 So you want, maybe
0:59:25 they’ll refer you to
0:59:27 somebody else and
0:59:28 they’ll become your
0:59:28 client.
0:59:30 And it comes down to
0:59:31 tapping into your
0:59:32 network’s network in a
0:59:32 lot of ways, especially
0:59:33 early on, where you can
0:59:35 occupy that little sliver
0:59:36 of brain space.
0:59:37 Or if somebody’s going
0:59:38 to Cancun or Egypt or
0:59:39 Japan or, you know,
0:59:41 they know, like, oh, I
0:59:42 know somebody who is
0:59:43 great at that.
0:59:44 They can help you.
0:59:45 And like, you’re trying
0:59:46 to get those referrals or
0:59:47 that word-of-mouth engine
0:59:48 spinning in your favor.
0:59:49 So I really like this
0:59:51 call to have some
0:59:53 semi-well-defined niche
0:59:54 or specialization where
0:59:55 it becomes easy to
0:59:56 make that referral and
0:59:57 that goes for just
0:59:58 about any service-based
0:59:58 business.
0:59:59 Different ways we
1:00:00 talked about to
1:00:01 establish that trust
1:00:02 and credibility and
1:00:04 meet your target
1:00:04 customers in their
1:00:06 natural habitat, hosting
1:00:07 workshops, going to
1:00:09 these bridal events
1:00:09 targeting the honeymoon
1:00:11 crowd, and then
1:00:12 potentially targeting a
1:00:13 higher-end, potentially
1:00:14 older demographic that
1:00:15 doesn’t want to do it
1:00:15 themselves.
1:00:16 They want that easy
1:00:16 button.
1:00:17 They want everything
1:00:18 handled, taken care of.
1:00:19 It’s like, I’ve been
1:00:20 saving for this trip for
1:00:20 a long time.
1:00:21 I want to make sure
1:00:23 that it goes well, or
1:00:23 it’s a complicated
1:00:24 itinerary, multiple
1:00:26 family members coming
1:00:27 in from multiple
1:00:27 locations.
1:00:28 There’s a lot of
1:00:29 resources for the
1:00:30 do-it-yourselfers, but
1:00:31 it also takes a lot
1:00:32 of time, as we’ve
1:00:33 learned firsthand with
1:00:34 this Japan planning
1:00:35 trip, which thankfully
1:00:36 my wife has taken
1:00:37 most of the reins on
1:00:37 that.
1:00:39 But it’s like every
1:00:40 evening, it’s like more
1:00:40 and more trying to
1:00:41 chip away at it.
1:00:42 So lots of different
1:00:43 ways you can go with
1:00:44 the travel advising
1:00:44 business.
1:00:45 We’ll link up
1:00:46 Bailey’s resources in
1:00:47 the show notes for
1:00:48 you for this episode.
1:00:50 Your listener bonus
1:00:51 for this week is my
1:00:52 big list of 101 service
1:00:53 business ideas that you
1:00:55 can apply some of
1:00:56 Bailey’s tactics to.
1:00:57 Maybe travel’s not
1:00:57 your thing.
1:00:58 Well, hey, we just
1:00:59 opened up the playbook
1:01:00 for lots of different
1:01:00 niches that you might
1:01:02 be able to use some of
1:01:02 these same marketing
1:01:03 ideas for.
1:01:04 You can follow the
1:01:05 show notes link in the
1:01:06 episode description and
1:01:07 it’ll get you over there.
1:01:09 Big thanks to Bailey for
1:01:10 sharing her insight.
1:01:11 Big thanks to our
1:01:12 sponsors for helping
1:01:13 make this content free
1:01:13 for everyone.
1:01:14 You can hit up
1:01:15 sidehustlenation.com
1:01:16 slash deals for all
1:01:17 the latest offers from
1:01:18 our sponsors in one
1:01:18 place.
1:01:19 That’s it for me.
1:01:21 Thank you so much for
1:01:21 tuning in.
1:01:22 If you’re finding value
1:01:24 in the show, help
1:01:24 spread the word.
1:01:25 Fire off that text
1:01:26 message to that travel
1:01:27 obsessed friend of
1:01:27 yours.
1:01:28 We all know that
1:01:28 person, right?
1:01:29 Let them know.
1:01:30 Hey, here’s a way to
1:01:31 get your next trip paid
1:01:31 for.
1:01:32 Until next time, let’s
1:01:33 go out there and make
1:01:34 something happen and
1:01:35 I’ll catch you in the
1:01:36 next edition of the
1:01:36 Side Hustle Show.