0:00:05 Here’s how one side hustler strategically acquired 200 grand a year in we’ll call it
0:00:06 semi-passive income.
0:00:12 You know, why go through the trouble of building up your own cash flow when with a little determination,
0:00:17 a little hustle, you can insert yourself into some income streams that are already happening.
0:00:22 That’s what today’s guest has done not once, not twice, but five different times, stacking
0:00:30 up what would be considered small-ish business acquisitions into a healthy full-time income
0:00:32 in exchange for part-time work from linkmoser.com.
0:00:36 Linkmoser, welcome back to The Side Hustle Show.
0:00:37 Thanks, Nick.
0:00:38 Great to be back.
0:00:43 I always love getting your emails and kudos to all the great work that you do.
0:00:46 My kids are excited that you’re going to be on that show with Nick.
0:00:48 Yeah, I am, guys.
0:00:50 Thank you for all that you’re doing.
0:00:53 Happy to be here and, yeah, excited to share.
0:00:55 It comes full circle.
0:00:57 Glad I got some street cred with the kids.
0:00:58 Link, we last heard from you.
0:00:59 It was late 2022.
0:01:04 We covered one of your other income streams, which I thought was really creative at that
0:01:09 time as this real estate lead generation site that you’d have for years and years where
0:01:14 single referrals could be worth tens of thousands of dollars.
0:01:19 Maybe this is kind of a theme, looking for these really leveraged activities where it’s
0:01:23 going to take the same amount of work to do this path or this other path and the hourly
0:01:26 return on this other path seems to be a lot greater.
0:01:30 I think it’s an interesting angle and the one we’ll get into in this episode.
0:01:35 We’re going to talk about the specific types of businesses that Link found most attractive
0:01:41 to try and go out and buy, how he found and negotiated with the owners for sometimes pretty
0:01:46 low down payments, low risk upfront, and maybe more interesting, even though they weren’t
0:01:48 necessarily even for sale.
0:01:53 How do I go buy something that’s not for sale and the time and logistics that goes into
0:01:55 that portfolio today?
0:01:58 As we’ve alluded to, you’re a man of many side hustles.
0:02:02 What inspires you to go out and try and acquire some cash flow in this way?
0:02:05 It’s a really unique strategy that a lot of people probably don’t think about.
0:02:09 It was really like so many things in life, accidental.
0:02:14 It was around 2010, so I’m about 10 years into this business of building websites and
0:02:18 hosting them, which I started ironically around the same time.
0:02:24 I got into real estate about 20 years old in the mid-90s, fell into both of these paths.
0:02:27 The OG, early days of the internet.
0:02:28 Early, early days.
0:02:31 AOL was still a thing.
0:02:35 Like others, there were other people starting up in this space and I had a friendly competitor
0:02:40 that was in 30 minutes from me and it was a husband and wife team and they went a little
0:02:41 bigger than I did.
0:02:46 They went and got an office, they got employees, and I was still much just doing this stuff
0:02:52 solo and having some freelance help, but to me, they looked like they were bigger and
0:02:55 who knows what kind of money they were making, but lo and behold, one day, they closed their
0:02:58 doors and I heard about it through the grapevine.
0:03:02 I don’t remember how, but they had just either given their book a business or maybe sold
0:03:08 it short money to another firm 45 minutes away and because I was always bidding against
0:03:12 these guys and Herbert thinking, “Why didn’t I get a seat at the table?
0:03:14 Why didn’t they reach out to me?
0:03:15 Do they think I was too small?
0:03:18 Do they think I didn’t have the means to do this?”
0:03:24 Maybe they were right, but I still would have liked a chance to have that conversation.
0:03:26 That’s what prompted me to start sending letters out.
0:03:27 I thought, “You know what?
0:03:30 I’m not going to let this happen again in my own backyard.”
0:03:38 To pause, you’re already doing this web design hosting on a small-ish scale for local businesses,
0:03:44 local companies and the attractive piece of this is that recurring … Okay, great.
0:03:48 It’s great to get a website build project, but that’s one-time revenue, where the real
0:03:52 sweet spot is in this recurring hosting and maintenance type of fee.
0:03:53 Is that right?
0:03:54 That’s right.
0:03:57 I joked that I have made a ton of mistakes in my life, but the one that I think I got
0:04:01 right was from day one, “Hey, I just built you a website, Nick.
0:04:02 Where are you going to host it?”
0:04:03 Oh, I don’t know.
0:04:04 Well, hey, guess what?
0:04:07 I can host it for $30 a month or something, which doesn’t sound like a lot of money and
0:04:09 you’re going to say, “Sure, great.
0:04:10 I had a good experience.
0:04:11 You built my site.
0:04:12 Go ahead.
0:04:13 Host it.”
0:04:14 I started doing that.
0:04:16 You know, for a lot of these companies, it’s a no-brainer.
0:04:21 I want a single point of contact for … You’re going to be my outsourced IT department.
0:04:22 You deal with it.
0:04:23 Sure.
0:04:24 Yes, fine.
0:04:25 Let me sign.
0:04:26 Let me set up that recurring payment.
0:04:27 Yep.
0:04:28 I’ll get your email.
0:04:29 I’ll help you with your domain name.
0:04:33 In the early days, it was a little more tentacle, but nowadays, it’s really pretty straightforward
0:04:34 stuff.
0:04:37 A lot of designers were strictly, “Hey, I built you a site.
0:04:38 I don’t want to host it.
0:04:40 I don’t want to be on call.”
0:04:41 I get that.
0:04:42 No.
0:04:43 No, I don’t.
0:04:47 Yeah, because it doesn’t look like you have a server bank in a spare bedroom or anything.
0:04:48 It’s all reseller hosting, right?
0:04:51 I’ll just partner with some other hosting company.
0:04:52 It is reseller.
0:04:53 Yeah.
0:04:56 You partner with somebody, does a good job, and it’s got good support, and you’ve got
0:04:58 somebody watching your back.
0:05:03 It did lay that track early on for recurring revenue, which has really become a big part
0:05:08 of what I do, so I don’t know if I had that foresight then, but I’m glad I did.
0:05:09 Okay.
0:05:10 There’s a game plan.
0:05:14 There’s somebody else doing this locally, and they sell to somebody else, and you’re
0:05:15 like, “Whoa, whoa, whoa.
0:05:16 I would have taken it.
0:05:18 You would have happily taken that off your head.”
0:05:24 The game plan becomes, “Who are the other smallish operators like me or like them who
0:05:32 have this piece of their revenue pie is that attractive recurring low maintenance hosting
0:05:38 type of revenue and trying to proactively get on their radar?”
0:05:39 Exactly.
0:05:43 I use this little thing called Google, and I reached out and said, “Who else is doing
0:05:44 this around me?”
0:05:47 I wrote him a letter, a one-page letter, “Hey, my name is Link.
0:05:50 I’m in this same business as you are.
0:05:55 I’m reaching out to see or just make the connection if you are ever thinking of shifting gears.”
0:06:02 Now, granted, this is a 10, 15-year-old industry, so a lot of people weren’t at traditional retirement
0:06:06 age if they started when they were younger, but other things happened in life that caused
0:06:10 people to get out of this stuff and you can’t take your business with you to the grave.
0:06:13 I realized you’re not going to win the lottery if you don’t buy a ticket, so I sent these
0:06:17 letters and I’m like, “Hey, the timing may be way off, but just hang on to my info.
0:06:18 Keep it in mind.
0:06:20 If you want to chat now, great.
0:06:26 I’m a real person, but if and when that time comes, I would just welcome the conversation.
0:06:30 Maybe a good fit may not, but hey, I’m putting myself out there.”
0:06:31 Okay.
0:06:33 It’s kind of a soft intro.
0:06:39 If you ever considered selling, if you have, give me a call or … I imagine you’re going
0:06:44 through pages and you’re just looking up New Hampshire web design type of companies.
0:06:46 It’s hard to imagine.
0:06:51 People would call themselves differently, “I’m a creative agency,” or there’s different
0:06:53 ways people might brand that.
0:06:54 There are.
0:06:55 There are.
0:06:57 You had to pick through, “Is it web designer?
0:06:59 Is it marketing agency?”
0:07:04 If you really took your time, there weren’t very many of that local, so I could go look
0:07:08 at their website and see, “Okay, it looks like … Oh, no, you’re doing TV spots.”
0:07:09 Well, that’s not for me.
0:07:14 I mean, you kind of figure … You can look at their website and see if it’s a match and
0:07:15 we build websites.
0:07:16 We host websites.
0:07:17 Okay, great.
0:07:18 Okay.
0:07:21 If they didn’t have 30 people under the About page, then you can figure, “All right.
0:07:26 There’s a small operation here because I can’t take over some giant monster company.”
0:07:29 I didn’t have that kind of means.
0:07:34 I think the first one was around 2014 when somebody did respond and it was local and
0:07:37 it was small, like similar size to me.
0:07:39 It was a husband and wife team.
0:07:44 I think the husband took ill and passed away and he had all the technical knowledge.
0:07:47 The wife’s like, “I can’t run this.”
0:07:52 She’d gotten my letter a year or two later, hung on to it, and yeah, plant those seeds.
0:07:53 Yeah, planting those seeds.
0:07:57 It could be a really long lead to conversion cycle, as they say, yeah.
0:07:58 Correct.
0:08:02 You’ve got to think the long game here and most of these people don’t reach out to you
0:08:07 and, “Hey, I got your letter,” but many of them hang on to it and file it away and you’re
0:08:08 glad they did.
0:08:12 She reached out and she probably had 20, 30 customers.
0:08:17 I took those over with no money down and it was, “I’ll give you half of whatever I
0:08:21 collect for 12 months,” so 12 payments.
0:08:26 If $100 comes in in January, then I’ll give you a check for $50 on the 1st of February
0:08:28 and I’ll do that 12 months, whatever it is.
0:08:30 It’s based on retention.
0:08:34 The more we can hang on to, the more I get and in that case, that woman just wanted to
0:08:35 home for the customers.
0:08:38 At that small level, it’s not usually always monetary.
0:08:40 It’s, “Hey, I’m done doing this.
0:08:43 I need to find a good, trusted home for my customers.
0:08:44 I’ve talked to you.
0:08:47 You seem like we have similar values.
0:08:49 Let’s figure this out.”
0:08:53 You’d asked me why I started doing this and it was partly because I felt like I’d missed
0:08:58 an opportunity, but it was also getting harder and harder for me to grow organically because
0:09:04 by now, everybody was doing this stuff and that growth was not as strong.
0:09:10 This was another way to grow and sometimes a good conversation is a one to many where
0:09:15 you might invest in that relationship but it may yield 50 accounts.
0:09:17 How long would it take to get those organically?
0:09:18 Interesting.
0:09:26 A new website coming online has huge menu of choices between WordPress and Squarespace
0:09:28 and Webflow and every other thing.
0:09:30 Each of those are going to have their own hosting packages.
0:09:34 Instead, it’s like, “Well, how can I go for people who already have a website?
0:09:36 They’re already used to paying for hosting.
0:09:40 How can I get in front of them in this creative, unique way?”
0:09:44 It sounds like it may be really as a matter of right place, right time.
0:09:45 It is.
0:09:50 This existing owner-seller who is looking to get out, give me a sense of the volume
0:09:55 of letters that you sent out, the research that went into it, the response rate.
0:09:58 I imagine anything direct mail has got to be pretty low.
0:10:02 I would do this in spurts as I had time to.
0:10:04 Up until last year, I used to send these out manually.
0:10:07 I’d written a little form letter and word.
0:10:08 I’d print the letters out.
0:10:13 I’d hand sign all of them and then I’d print on the envelopes because my handwriting wouldn’t
0:10:15 get the letter there.
0:10:18 Then I’d beg my kids, “Hey, help me stuff these.”
0:10:24 I might do 100, 200 in a batch, but it might be taking hours and then pay for the stamps.
0:10:29 After I exhausted New Hampshire, I found a virtual assistant to help research the name.
0:10:35 I went on Upwork and found a fellow and I would just go state by state, “Okay, New Hampshire’s
0:10:36 done.
0:10:37 Give me Maine and Vermont.”
0:10:42 The bigger states would be longer to list, so it would take me a while to go through
0:10:44 500, 600 people.
0:10:47 I wanted to stay local because I felt that was a connection, “Hey, I’m right here in
0:10:51 New Hampshire or you’re right over Vermont or you’re in Massachusetts.
0:10:53 I’m here in New England just like you.
0:10:55 You’re trying to find a way to connect.”
0:10:59 At least it gives you a starting point versus some company in Montana or something.
0:11:00 Correct.
0:11:07 A lot of these people at a smaller size, their clients valued the perception of a local relationship.
0:11:13 These days, people are less worried about that, but back 15 years ago, it mattered and
0:11:16 it still does to some, all things being equal.
0:11:17 Sure.
0:11:22 Having this virtual assistant comb through the directories of web design, web hosting,
0:11:27 marketing agency, all these variations on certain keywords where somebody has hosting
0:11:30 as they’re under their menu of services.
0:11:31 Correct.
0:11:36 I would pay them about 25 cents a lead and I got this person dialed in to where it was
0:11:37 working well.
0:11:39 In the beginning, I would say, “Hey, send me 10 listings.
0:11:40 Let me take a look at them.
0:11:44 I’ll manually go look at the websites and I’ll say I’ll give them feedback.”
0:11:45 These two are on point.
0:11:46 This one is not.
0:11:47 Here’s why.
0:11:52 Once we had that dialed in because I needed to have the owner’s name first and last name
0:11:57 because I could want to personalize it and I needed a valid mailing address and I wanted
0:11:59 a website so I could go look at it.
0:12:00 I like that.
0:12:01 Send me 10 as a trial task.
0:12:03 We’ll see if we’re on the right path.
0:12:04 Yes.
0:12:05 Correct.
0:12:06 Send me 10.
0:12:07 Send me 20.
0:12:08 I would shift it over time.
0:12:10 I would say, “Hey, these are a little too big.
0:12:16 Look at the headcounts if they’re under five or I don’t want anything with the video work
0:12:19 on it because that wasn’t my cup of tea.”
0:12:23 We would refine that model and we’d go state by state and they’d send me the list and I
0:12:29 would just ask for it whenever I had the bandwidth and I would send out letters and inevitably,
0:12:33 and I would track it all in Excel, which I realize is very low-tech, but the response
0:12:37 rate would be 10 to 12 percent, which I think was pretty darn good.
0:12:39 That’s shockingly high for direct mail.
0:12:41 Normally, the rule of thumb is like 1 percent.
0:12:43 It’s like one to two, exactly.
0:12:47 I measured that by the response, so certainly not meaning, “Hey, we’re going to make a
0:12:48 deal.”
0:12:53 It was more, “Did I get a call or an email back from somebody?”
0:12:54 It’s like a funnel, right?
0:12:58 You talk to so many and then you get serious with a few more.
0:13:01 You ask for some financials and you kind of work through it.
0:13:05 There was, of course, the gazillion conversations that went nowhere, or at least nowhere at
0:13:06 the moment.
0:13:10 I had to have the bandwidth and the capacities who, “You send out letters, you better be
0:13:13 ready when the phone rings that you’re going to have some calls.”
0:13:14 Yeah.
0:13:18 Is that the main, “Put your phone number at the bottom, hey, call me if this is of interest.”
0:13:23 We could talk through what a deal might look like, next steps, get a sense, get to know
0:13:24 each other.
0:13:26 What’s the sign off here?
0:13:30 This is definitely, “Here’s my phone number, here’s my email address,” and then I think
0:13:35 it was important to put my LinkedIn URL because I wanted them to look me up.
0:13:37 Many people were like, “Is this real?”
0:13:41 I would use my company logo letterhead, put the LinkedIn, just go check me out.
0:13:42 I’m a real person.
0:13:47 There’s no scam here because many of these, especially the little guys, they never get
0:13:48 a letter like this.
0:13:50 They’re thinking, “What is the angle with this guy?”
0:13:51 No, yes.
0:13:53 It’s certainly a unique approach.
0:13:54 This is Windhill Design.
0:13:58 This would be like, “Hey, look, we’ve been doing this for years, we’re going to take
0:13:59 or carry your clients.
0:14:02 It’s not just some fly-by-night type of operation.”
0:14:03 Yes.
0:14:04 I’m like you.
0:14:07 We’re both similar here and I’m not making any assumptions.
0:14:09 Nobody tipped me off that you’re about ready to retire.
0:14:14 I’m a guy reaching out, making connection.
0:14:16 If and when this is something you want to chat about, I’m right here.
0:14:17 Yeah.
0:14:18 Bonus points.
0:14:23 If you’re Upwork VA, you could find the About page and it’s got a gray hair guy on it.
0:14:24 Yeah.
0:14:25 Yeah.
0:14:26 Oh, okay.
0:14:27 I’ll pay you 50 cents for that lead.
0:14:28 That’s right.
0:14:32 If you know something that’s going to happen in their lives and if people are listing there’s
0:14:36 a takeaway here, I learned as I had more and more of these conversations, some of them
0:14:40 felt like wild goose chases that if I could drill down, why are you reaching out to me
0:14:42 now, Nick?
0:14:45 What it is that about my letter prompted you to reach out?
0:14:46 I’m digging.
0:14:47 I’m probing a little here too.
0:14:51 Are you just thinking that maybe I’m some dumb guy with a bunch of money that’s going
0:14:55 over pay and you hadn’t thinking until you got this letter or is there something else
0:14:58 in your life that you want to pursue?
0:15:03 I hate to say a health factor, but sometimes that’s the case.
0:15:09 Some of the reason besides strictly financial of why we might be talking now.
0:15:10 Yeah.
0:15:11 That’s fair.
0:15:12 Yeah.
0:15:18 It’s like how Zillow used to have the Make Me Move price or something.
0:15:22 It’s like, yeah, it’s not for sale, but how much are we talking here?
0:15:23 Right.
0:15:24 Right.
0:15:26 We’re talking about people that I was not going to overpay.
0:15:27 I couldn’t be that person.
0:15:32 I didn’t just win the lottery here and I bored and sprinkling money around.
0:15:34 If they didn’t have a good reason, I didn’t really push to come.
0:15:39 I was sort of like, hey, you’re going to make more money hanging onto this because we both
0:15:44 know the recurring revenue and we both realize the comfort that comes from this.
0:15:50 So I’m not fooling anyone into thinking I can adjust their trajectory.
0:15:53 So I wanted a good reason that was there.
0:15:57 And then if that was there, like you said, the timing was right.
0:16:03 You could then take the conversation to a second date, so to speak.
0:16:04 Yeah.
0:16:07 If it’s a good book of business for you to buy, by definition, it’s a good business,
0:16:08 book of business for them to hold on to.
0:16:09 Correct.
0:16:13 It’s kind of like, why am I letting go of this recurring revenue cash cow?
0:16:14 Yeah.
0:16:15 Okay.
0:16:16 So the question, hey, why are you reaching out?
0:16:21 What prompted you to respond to this letter and trying to probe for some indication that
0:16:26 hey, I’m trying to take some chips off the table, I’m nearing retirement, I’m just trying
0:16:31 to explore more with Link in just a moment, including the due diligence phase, how he
0:16:35 might structure a deal and the all-important transition so you don’t lose a bunch of the
0:16:39 customers you just bought right after this.
0:16:43 Friends don’t let friends overpay for wireless, which is why I’m excited to partner with Mitt
0:16:44 Mobile for this episode.
0:16:48 Don’t let the traditional big wireless carriers take you for a ride this year.
0:16:52 I made the switch to Mitt Mobile over five years ago and haven’t looked back, saving
0:16:54 thousands of dollars over that time.
0:16:58 With Mitt Mobile, you get premium wireless plans starting at 15 bucks a month.
0:17:02 All of those plans come with high-speed data and unlimited talk and text on the nation’s
0:17:04 largest 5G network.
0:17:08 You can use your own phone with any Mitt Mobile plan and even bring over your existing phone
0:17:10 number and all your existing contacts.
0:17:14 So join me in ditching overpriced wireless this year and get three months of premium
0:17:18 wireless service from Mitt Mobile for just 15 bucks a month.
0:17:20 If you like your money, Mitt Mobile’s for you.
0:17:27 Shop plans at mittmobile.com/sidehustle, that’s mintmobile.com/sidehustle, upfront payment
0:17:32 of $45 for three month five gigabyte plan required, equivalent to $15 per month.
0:17:37 New customer offer for first three months only, then full-price plan options available.
0:17:41 Taxes and fees extra, see Mitt Mobile for details.
0:17:46 Running a retail business is no joke, especially if you’re selling online and in-person and
0:17:52 especially if you’re doing it as a side hustle, but Shopify point of sale makes it simple.
0:17:56 Shopify POS is your all-in-one command center, seamlessly connecting your in-store and online
0:18:00 operations, whether you’ve got one location or a thousand.
0:18:04 That means customers can shop however they want and you’ve got the tools to help close
0:18:05 the sale every time.
0:18:08 And here’s the kicker, acquiring new customers is expensive.
0:18:09 You already know that.
0:18:15 Shopify POS helps you keep customers coming back with personalized experiences that people
0:18:19 have come to expect and the first-party data that give your marketing team a serious edge,
0:18:22 even if that marketing team is just you right now.
0:18:27 Plus, the numbers don’t lie, businesses using Shopify POS see an average of an 8.9% boost
0:18:31 in sales and a 22% better total cost of ownership.
0:18:32 Want more?
0:18:38 Check out Shopify.com/sidehustle, all lower case, and learn how to create the best retail
0:18:41 experiences without complexity.
0:18:43 Shopify.com/sidehustle.
0:18:46 Okay, what does the next step look like?
0:18:50 I’d like to have a smooth transition handoff for these clients that I’ve probably had for
0:18:53 5, 10, 15 years in some cases.
0:18:57 Talk to me about the next steps of due diligence and trying to get it.
0:18:58 It’s going to be sensitive.
0:19:03 Now, all of a sudden, they’re having to open up their books and financials and prove they
0:19:09 are making what they say they’re making and even that’s kind of like a personal question.
0:19:10 Why are you reaching out?
0:19:11 Yes.
0:19:16 Once you’re monthly recurring revenue here, it’s like, “Whoa, whoa, whoa.
0:19:17 We just met.”
0:19:18 Yeah, it is.
0:19:19 It’s like dating.
0:19:21 You’re not going to ask for marriage on that first date.
0:19:25 And so, I’m very mindful of respecting that and knowing everyone’s going to be a little
0:19:26 different.
0:19:32 Now, surprisingly, people are very open about things like financials and people sometimes
0:19:35 are very forthcoming because I will dance around.
0:19:39 People are more willing to share maybe top line revenue, what they brought in versus
0:19:40 what they kept.
0:19:44 So, you know, I have no clue how big they are, how many clients do you have?
0:19:47 That’s kind of a roundabout way to asking.
0:19:52 So if your intercall went well and you found some motivation that you’re comfortable with,
0:19:56 then the next step is to sort of size this thing up and see if it’s a fit because I don’t
0:20:00 want to promise that I can flip into your shoes and do what you do.
0:20:03 I want to know a little more.
0:20:06 In the beginning, it was me sending emails with questions and then eventually, I made
0:20:10 a list of questions that was about two pages and I said, “Hey, this all sounds good.
0:20:11 I’ve got some questions.
0:20:14 I’m going to send them to you.
0:20:18 Don’t feel you have to answer any or all of them because I don’t want you to feel uncomfortable.
0:20:21 But these are things that would help me size this up because, of course, they’re sitting
0:20:23 there wondering, “What are you going to pay me for this?”
0:20:26 And I said, “Well, I need to know more and I need to know sure it’s a fit.”
0:20:28 And I’m also going to send over an NDA.
0:20:32 So I get ahead of that before they even ask for one, whether they know what that means
0:20:33 even.
0:20:37 I’m going to send that over with my signature on it because you should have this.
0:20:42 This is this good, proper protocol so that you know that our conversation is confidential.
0:20:46 And it goes without saying, I said, “But let’s have a piece of paper to make sure that that’s
0:20:47 there.”
0:20:48 So I’m proactive with that.
0:20:52 This is a non-disclosure agreement for those unfamiliar with the acronym.
0:20:53 Yep.
0:20:58 It means what we talk about stays confidential because you’re trying to build trust.
0:21:02 And I want this person, especially if I get the sense they have something I want, I really
0:21:04 want them to like and trust me.
0:21:11 So I need to establish that early on, genuinely, let’s assume definitely genuinely, I’m trying
0:21:13 to fleece anyone.
0:21:19 So I’m trying to also make this as easy and smooth for them recognizing the sensitivity
0:21:23 that they’re parting with a part of them for whatever reason.
0:21:24 Yeah.
0:21:29 And the alternative is them selling it through a brokerage and now you’ve got a competing
0:21:30 bid situation.
0:21:33 You’re trying to want to eliminate all of that by being proactive and being the only
0:21:37 person who is even having this conversation with them.
0:21:38 Correct.
0:21:40 So asking the kind of things, “Well, how many clients do you have?”
0:21:46 I imagine it would be, “What percentage of this is like the one-off design work?”
0:21:49 You’re like, “Well, I don’t know if I need to buy myself another job and I don’t know
0:21:52 how much of that is really going to be, how much of that could I really count on if they
0:21:56 have a personal relationship with you or your design team?”
0:21:59 And it’s like, “Well, I don’t know.”
0:22:03 It’s a little bit harder to put a value on versus the recurring revenue side.
0:22:10 Okay, expect, I don’t know, what is a reasonable number, like 75% to 80% retention rate.
0:22:17 Yeah, just keep it on the same server, let’s keep it going and then I can throw out a valuation
0:22:18 or a multiple based on that.
0:22:22 It is all over the map and those are the questions that are part of that, that early
0:22:28 due diligence before you can put a value on it and I’ll tell people that because I will
0:22:31 value the, you’ve got recurring revenue and then kind of everything else, what I will
0:22:37 call project-based or one-time revenue and it’s a much lower value because exactly to
0:22:41 your point, you don’t know how much of that will stick and carry forward.
0:22:47 So it’s not that it isn’t got some value, but it’s certainly not predictable and it
0:22:51 speaks to kind of the terms by which I structure a deal.
0:22:53 So first you’ve got to know if you want it and then if you knew on it, you got to think
0:22:58 about how will I value this and be ready to present that to that owner.
0:23:06 Is there a rule of thumb for, okay, I’m going to put the one-time revenue at 1x earnings
0:23:11 because I don’t know if that’s going to materialize or even less than that versus, okay, the recurring
0:23:14 revenue and more comfortable paying a higher multiple, like are there any rules of thumb
0:23:17 or is it just like, hey, we got to start the negotiation somewhere, it’s all over to put
0:23:20 it at two and a half times or like something like that?
0:23:22 There isn’t a rule of thumb.
0:23:27 Years and years ago, I knew a fellow that did mergers and acquisitions in this space,
0:23:33 way bigger deals and I would pick his brain a little and this was probably 15 years ago.
0:23:37 His rule of thumb was for this small stuff was that it was around one to one and a half
0:23:44 times gross on the hosting and then 0.5, 0.75 on the product base.
0:23:47 Now I think this day and age, that’s probably a little low.
0:23:49 It also depends on the size.
0:23:56 If you’re talking about 50K in revenue versus 500K, the bigger fish is going to get a higher
0:23:59 multiple even on the blend.
0:24:05 But if this little stuff, if you’re talking, let’s say around that 50K or under or above,
0:24:13 0 to 100, I’m trying to be probably a starting point one and a half on the hosting and maybe
0:24:16 close to the 0.8 or one on the project base.
0:24:19 I’ve got a little Excel tool I made where I plug all this stuff in and then I spend
0:24:24 a little time looking at it because you got to look and say, “Is this fair?”
0:24:30 Even if somebody is really motivated to sell, you still have to be fair and you can’t, I’ll
0:24:31 just take it.
0:24:35 Some people will approach and say, “I won’t put anything down, I’ll just pay you an earn
0:24:36 out.”
0:24:42 Unless we’re talking like 10 to 15 clients, then I should put some skin in the game for
0:24:43 somebody.
0:24:45 I think that’s the right thing to do.
0:24:51 If you’re talking $50,000 a year in hosting revenue, that’s good value and then it’s pretty
0:24:53 sticky.
0:24:58 If that’s a C-Panel and it moves right over into your universe, that’s pretty much almost
0:25:02 all profit if you’ve got your hosting capacity in place.
0:25:08 That would be the equivalent of probably pretty close to a median income over your own 50 grand
0:25:14 a year to just have that cash flow show up all of a sudden in your bank account.
0:25:19 Instead, for a fair price for that might be $75,000, but you’ve structured it in a way
0:25:25 where you’re not necessarily stroking a check for $75,000 upfront, it’s this combination
0:25:29 of, “Hey, I’ll make you a down payment and then we’ll do some performance-based earn
0:25:30 out.”
0:25:32 Maybe we can use your first couple of deals as an example.
0:25:37 You mentioned the first one was no money down, but maybe the second or third, let’s talk
0:25:38 through some of those examples.
0:25:42 2017, I came back and picked up another one.
0:25:44 I got a little more purposeful.
0:25:51 I had my focus shifted to the other side hustle, the real estate world from about 2014 to 2017.
0:25:56 I was not as focused on growing this at that time because my focus was on the real estate
0:25:57 business.
0:26:02 So, when I shifted my focus back to this, I dusted my old inkjet and started sending
0:26:03 letters out.
0:26:08 And to be clear, hundreds and hundreds of letters, a volume game, I’m trying to cast
0:26:12 a wide net, I’m trying to make sure every hosting reseller in New England has heard
0:26:13 my name.
0:26:14 Yes, hundreds of letters.
0:26:19 I mean, by now, there’s probably been 7,000-8,000 letters that have gone out over the last
0:26:20 10 years.
0:26:21 Okay, that’s great.
0:26:22 Yeah, it’s a lot.
0:26:25 Now, do you start back at the top of the list and like, “Oh, it’s been 10 years.
0:26:27 Might as well hit these people up again.”
0:26:28 I should.
0:26:32 I also got emails, so then I started doing email file like, “Hey, did you get my letter?”
0:26:33 Or, “Hey, it’s been a few years.
0:26:34 Let me check in with you.”
0:26:37 And some people were like, “Hey, I sold it two years ago.
0:26:38 Oh, dang.
0:26:39 I didn’t check in enough.”
0:26:40 That’s right.
0:26:42 Yeah, it’s like trying to keep the multiple touch points.
0:26:43 You do.
0:26:45 You got to find that balance of not being a pest.
0:26:51 But in 2017, the first one in the most recent batch, I would say, was a fellow here in New
0:26:52 Hampshire.
0:26:53 It was a second career for him.
0:26:57 He had about 35 customers, mix of hosting and project-based work.
0:27:01 And his wife was getting ready to retire, so they were going to travel some, and he was
0:27:04 ready to just have this office plate.
0:27:09 He had already tried to find a home for it with another company locally and did not have
0:27:12 a good experience with them, and then, “Okay, you guys aren’t a match.”
0:27:15 So he was primed and ready.
0:27:16 And when we met, we hit it off.
0:27:18 He’s like, “Yeah, great.
0:27:19 You seem like a good fit.
0:27:20 Let’s do this.”
0:27:23 So I offered him three deal scenarios, and I forgot the other two.
0:27:29 But the one he picked was $4,000 down and 18 months of earn-out payments.
0:27:34 So I think that was 50% on the recurring or the hosting revenue.
0:27:38 This is based on the gross, which is easier to track and more transparent.
0:27:42 And I think 35% on the one time.
0:27:47 So just, if you all clarify what that looks like, it’s January right now.
0:27:52 So if $100 in hosting revenue comes in in January and $100 in project-based, February,
0:27:58 I will make a check for $50 on the hosting and $35 on the project-based.
0:28:04 So $85 check in February 1st, and we’d follow that model for 18 payments.
0:28:05 Okay.
0:28:08 You’re keeping more margin on the hosting because there’s more margin there.
0:28:12 You’re paying less margin to the seller on the project-based because that is requiring
0:28:14 some labor on your front.
0:28:16 It is acquiring some labor, and it’s also not as sticky.
0:28:18 So it’s not as worth as much.
0:28:21 So the hosting revenue is worth more and had better margin.
0:28:23 So I put more value on that.
0:28:24 Yep.
0:28:25 Okay.
0:28:30 So this, I think, was worth around $32,000 in gross revenue.
0:28:34 And that feels like a, you know, we talk about mergers and acquisitions and like, you know,
0:28:35 millions of dollars changing hands.
0:28:40 It’s like, you know, there are these little mini businesses, still great cash flow, especially
0:28:41 as a side hustle.
0:28:47 Like, oh, I could add $30,000 to my income next year with $4,000 down and a few hours
0:28:48 of work every week.
0:28:50 Like, that’s a pretty good trade.
0:28:51 It is.
0:28:54 And I think, I think for someone listening and thinking about this, what had helped me
0:28:56 was that I was already in the space.
0:29:01 So, you know, you, it may be a little harder to buy the first one on terms like this because
0:29:04 somebody’s going to say, I don’t know if you could do this, right?
0:29:08 I’m depending on you to perform in order for me to get paid out.
0:29:11 So this would not be deal terms out of the gate.
0:29:16 Either you start it and you get in it, you can still do it on the side, but you need
0:29:20 to have the experience or you, you might need to pay more traditional, I’m going to make
0:29:21 fixed payments.
0:29:26 And I think a seller would still carry payment, but you might not be able to do the earn out
0:29:31 if you were completely new to this, especially if they knew you were working a full-time
0:29:32 job.
0:29:33 Got it, got it.
0:29:35 Think about it from their perspective, right?
0:29:39 Well, I’m just about to turn around and like start looking for people in the Seattle area
0:29:43 trying to sell their businesses, but you’re right, it’s kind of the credibility.
0:29:49 Well, you got to establish some credibility and authority before you can structure something
0:29:50 completely like this.
0:29:56 And even if it’s just setting up your own home base and, you know, even gathering just
0:29:59 a handful of clients to get some practice out of your belt.
0:30:00 Correct.
0:30:03 Because otherwise you’re like, now it’s trial by fire and this person has entrusted me with
0:30:06 their longtime clients and I got to figure this out.
0:30:08 And you got to take that seriously.
0:30:12 And I will say, you know, writing those checks, I never missed one, but I’ve written some
0:30:16 big checks to people and then that, you know, it hurts a little, but you know when that
0:30:18 period is over, you’ll be able to keep all that.
0:30:24 So your hope is that you can hang on to these clients and attrition is a horrible word, but
0:30:29 it happens and you do lose clients with the transition sometimes and you’re like, oh man,
0:30:34 I just bought this guy and he’s going out the door on month two, you know, and is that
0:30:35 my fault?
0:30:36 Is he just not like me?
0:30:38 Was he already on his way out?
0:30:39 I mean, you…
0:30:45 Yeah, especially if there’s only, you know, 10 or 20 clients, losing a couple is a big
0:30:46 percentage wise.
0:30:48 You’re like, oh shoot, I was banking on that revenue.
0:30:50 I just paid for, you know, a multiple of that revenue.
0:30:51 Yep.
0:30:56 There was a deal in 2020 that was a company in Denver that did social media marketing
0:31:03 and I, they had a monthly recurring revenue of about $20,000 when I took it over, only
0:31:04 about 12 clients.
0:31:06 So this was not hosting.
0:31:09 This was a more retainer based work.
0:31:14 And I took that over with nothing down, but that and it had employees and we kept that
0:31:21 brand separate, but by May, about into January one, by May, it was, the doors were shut.
0:31:26 So that had shed enough clients where I couldn’t make the payroll and I wasn’t going to ride
0:31:31 this thing down into the bottom and, you know, we had to say, okay, that’s that.
0:31:35 And had I not structured it that way, I would have really financially found myself in a
0:31:36 pickle.
0:31:38 So it does happen.
0:31:42 And that’s sort of what brings us back to, I like the hosting side because that is more
0:31:44 like the power company, right?
0:31:47 You know, it was the last time you called the power company, probably when the power
0:31:48 went out, right?
0:31:50 Otherwise we don’t bug them.
0:31:51 The lights are on.
0:31:52 I’m happy.
0:31:53 Yeah.
0:31:57 It’s a utility and it’s priced as, hopefully it’s priced as such where it’s just kind
0:32:00 of this low monthly recurring thing.
0:32:03 If I want my website to exist, I just got to keep the pay on us.
0:32:04 That’s right.
0:32:07 And if you don’t give them a reason to go anywhere, they’re not going to.
0:32:14 Keep the price fair, keep the lights on and you don’t need to pay for staff or your time
0:32:15 to manage that.
0:32:18 So it’s, it brought me back to that service being a good fit.
0:32:24 Is there anything specific that you do during that transition time to introduce yourself?
0:32:30 Hey, I’m, Link, I’m taking over, you know, so-and-so is handing over the reins.
0:32:31 Don’t worry.
0:32:32 You’re a good hand.
0:32:33 I’ve been doing this forever.
0:32:35 It’s going to be a seamless transition for you.
0:32:39 Like, what does, what does a handoff look like to minimize that fall off?
0:32:44 It’s different every time, but I think some common traits are that you, you’re going to
0:32:50 lean on that seller in those first 30, 45, 60 days to follow their lead.
0:32:51 They know those relationships.
0:32:56 So they’re going to know, you know, who might be a little more sensitive, who might need
0:32:57 a little more handholding.
0:33:00 You certainly want that seller to stay visible.
0:33:06 Ideally, they are reaching out by phone and email to these folks, not just boom, hey,
0:33:12 I’m out the door, you know, so how they leave that relationship sort of sets you up for
0:33:14 you taking it over.
0:33:17 And if it’s, if it’s straight hosting, then it’s not really a big deal.
0:33:22 But if they are used to more points of contact, because you’re doing some print design, you’re
0:33:27 doing some web maintenance, things that have more interaction, then, then you need to be
0:33:32 able to slip into that cadence and maybe you sit on a call or zoom with them and there’s
0:33:36 a, there’s a handoff, somebody, as they’re phasing out, you’re phasing up.
0:33:38 It’s not necessarily, boom, here are the keys link.
0:33:39 Good luck.
0:33:40 Yeah.
0:33:43 In most cases, they’ve got that 12 to 18 month earn out.
0:33:49 So there’s some incentive for them to make it a smooth transition so they can maximize
0:33:52 their ultimate payout at the end.
0:33:53 Yes.
0:33:54 Correct.
0:33:55 That is a huge part of that.
0:33:56 It aligns our goals.
0:34:03 I want to retain, they want to maximize, we both want to keep these clients in the fold
0:34:04 and happy.
0:34:07 So do you typically do it as a, I guess a percentage of what you collect rather than
0:34:12 like, I’m going to pay you the $75,000 purchase price and we’re just going to stretch it out
0:34:15 or it’s like, I’m going to pay you this much upfront and then we’re going to see what comes
0:34:18 in and I’m just going to give you a fixed percentage of that.
0:34:22 If it, if it grows great, if it, you know, if it goes down, that’s, that’s what happens.
0:34:23 Yeah.
0:34:28 It has always been variable because otherwise they’re just making me alone and I need their
0:34:32 incentive to help with the retain because if they’re going to get their 75 grand, no
0:34:35 matter what, they just have to wait for it.
0:34:37 That puts more risk on my side.
0:34:42 I want them to know, you know, if Bob or Sue leaves, they’re walking out the door with
0:34:46 revenue that affects both of us, not just me.
0:34:51 And that does, that does require you building a lot of trust because they’re thinking, Link,
0:34:52 are you going to take this seriously?
0:34:55 Are you going to screw off or you’re going to jack the prices?
0:34:58 I mean, so I, I will even write in the agreement.
0:35:00 I’m not raising prices during the earn out.
0:35:06 I’m, you know, I will, I’m willing to agree to certain non boat rocking.
0:35:12 If they’ve got a ploy or I can’t promise I’ll keep employees, but freelancers, if they’re
0:35:16 client facing and they, it’s a good fit, I’ll, I’ll try to hang onto that and just kind of
0:35:20 keep things as same as it can, you know, the money goes somewhere different.
0:35:22 It’s so different, Mr. Client.
0:35:26 More with Link in just a moment, including handling those project based requests, a day
0:35:32 in the life of running this business and his plans for the future right after this.
0:35:36 Years ago, I was sitting in a conference in Santa Barbara and the presenter asked this
0:35:40 question, are you working on your business or are you working in your business?
0:35:42 And at that point, I had already quit my job.
0:35:47 I saw myself as a full-time entrepreneur, but it was this moment of clarity that, no,
0:35:50 I’m still very much working in the business.
0:35:53 So when I got back home, that’s when I made my first full-time hire.
0:35:58 It was the first in a long series of steps of learning to truly take control by being
0:36:01 okay of letting go of certain tasks.
0:36:05 Now, when you find yourself in that position of needing to hire, like yesterday, you need
0:36:07 Indeed.
0:36:12 With a sponsored job on Indeed, your post jumps to the top of the page for your relevant candidates
0:36:14 so you can stand out and reach the right people faster.
0:36:19 Plus, there’s no monthly subscriptions, no long-term contracts, and you only pay for
0:36:20 the results.
0:36:22 That’s why from my next hire, I’m using Indeed.
0:36:24 There’s no need to wait any longer.
0:36:27 Speed up your hiring right now with Indeed.
0:36:31 Side hustle show listeners get a $75 sponsored job credit to get your jobs more visibility
0:36:35 at Indeed.com/SideHusselShow.
0:36:39 Just go to Indeed.com/SideHusselShow right now and support our show by saying you heard
0:36:42 about Indeed on this podcast.
0:36:44 Indeed.com/SideHusselShow.
0:36:46 Terms and conditions apply.
0:36:48 Hiring Indeed is all you need.
0:36:53 Payday is awesome, but when you’re the one running payroll, calculating taxes and deductions,
0:36:58 staying compliant is not as simple as it was when you’re just on the receiving end.
0:37:00 That is unless, of course, you have our sponsor, Gusto.
0:37:06 Gusto is a simple online payroll and benefits tool built specifically for small businesses
0:37:07 like yours.
0:37:10 Gusto gets your team paid while automatically filing your payroll taxes.
0:37:15 Plus, you can offer other benefits like 401(k), health insurance, workers comp, and it works
0:37:18 for both W2 and 1099 workers.
0:37:21 Gusto’s gotten a lot of love from SideHusselShow guests over the years.
0:37:25 And some friends of mine have even mentioned using it to pay their own salary.
0:37:28 On top of that, they’ve got great customer service and certified HR experts are standing
0:37:30 by to help if you have any question.
0:37:35 It’s no wonder why more than 300,000 small businesses already trust Gusto to help run
0:37:36 their payroll.
0:37:40 And 99% of them see the value they get from Gusto is worth the price.
0:37:44 SideHusselShow listeners get three months free when you go to gusto.com/sidehussel.
0:37:50 Again, that’s gusto.com/sidehussel to try three months free.
0:37:56 Yeah, that brings up the next point of when the project-based stuff comes in.
0:37:57 That’s great.
0:38:01 If they had somebody on their team who was already doing that, it’s like, “Sure.
0:38:07 Let me pass along that same project over to you,” would be the manager, reviewer, overseer
0:38:14 versus, “Well, now somebody’s asking for this redesign and either I got to figure that out
0:38:16 or I got to go find somebody who’s qualified to do it.”
0:38:22 I’ve had pretty good luck maintaining a good long-term relationship with various contractors
0:38:27 and freelancers over the years, so some of them which have teams behind them so they can
0:38:28 scale.
0:38:32 Certainly, if you’re going through one of these, I’m going to tell the people that I’m
0:38:33 working, “Hey, do you have more capacity?
0:38:35 Do you want more work?
0:38:37 If not, I’m going to need to tee up that.”
0:38:44 When the last ones I did in 2023 came with a whole bunch of print design work, so I needed
0:38:50 to find a print designer to help with this because the previous owners was a husband
0:38:55 and wife team and the husband was doing the creative design, so I don’t know how to use
0:38:56 Adobe InDesign.
0:39:01 I don’t want to use Adobe InDesign, so I needed to find someone to help with that.
0:39:07 Again, it takes a little due diligence and just like you’re finding an employee, but
0:39:12 I’ve got a good person now that works stateside and at the same time zone and takes the design
0:39:15 projects and it’s been working well.
0:39:16 You have enough runway.
0:39:22 In that case, those owners still did contract work for me for a good six to 12 months of
0:39:27 a 24-month earn-out, so that was a very gradual timeline.
0:39:29 They wanted to keep the revenue.
0:39:31 They wanted to let the dust settle.
0:39:35 They were not web people, so the web stuff I took over right away, but they hung on to
0:39:40 some of the print work and they stayed more client-facing and we gradually moved those
0:39:44 relationships over on their timeline and that’s worked out well.
0:39:45 Yeah.
0:39:46 This is a big question mark.
0:39:51 I think for a lot of business owners is what is the exit strategy and if there’s a way
0:39:57 to draw down and slowly reduce your hours while still getting some income, that probably
0:40:01 makes a lot of sense because that’s not something you think about day to day.
0:40:05 It’s like, “No, I’m just doing my thing,” and then it’s a question of like, “How long
0:40:06 do we keep doing this?”
0:40:11 If somebody like Link comes along and says, “Hey, I’m offering you an exit plan,” and
0:40:14 it’s like, “Oh, I never thought about that.”
0:40:17 Like, “Oh, okay,” so it could be pretty attractive.
0:40:23 I did want to ask if this is purely like a war of attrition where it’s like, “Okay,
0:40:26 I bought 30 clients at the end of two years.
0:40:28 I hope to have 20 of them.
0:40:29 Does it grow?”
0:40:33 Are new people signing up or it’s like, “We had a guy from Philip Morris come and talk
0:40:38 to our group in college,” and we’re like, “Are new people starting smoking anymore?”
0:40:39 He’s like, “No.
0:40:44 This business has been around for 100 years, but it declines 3% a year.”
0:40:45 3% a year.
0:40:46 And it’s like, “Okay.”
0:40:49 So, it’s like slowly dying and they’re trying to diversify.
0:40:55 But it was just a weird … Yeah, we openly admit that it may not be around forever, but
0:40:58 it’s still a huge business and it just is slowly declining.
0:41:03 Is it similar here where it’s just trying to do the best to keep what you have?
0:41:09 At the small end where I have played for the most part, I’d say yes.
0:41:14 You’re buying a client list, so there’s not usually a brand.
0:41:20 Just because they had a logo and a trade name doesn’t mean it was a recognizable brand.
0:41:22 The owners were the brand.
0:41:24 They were the business development people.
0:41:26 They were the lead generation team.
0:41:32 So when that is gone, especially if it’s not local, you might get some referrals possibly,
0:41:38 not necessarily in the hosting piece, but on design work if someone is happy and you’re …
0:41:42 They’re not going to refer you until they get to know you, but if it’s going well by
0:41:49 month six to nine, they might be a referral, but I have found that the attrition of acquired
0:41:53 client badges is higher than what I’ve organically got.
0:41:58 And so it is … Race to the bottom isn’t the right term, because some of these hosting
0:42:01 clients I’ve had for 10 plus years.
0:42:04 Yeah, it can be super sticky.
0:42:08 Other things happen, they go out of business or they … I have lost people because they’re
0:42:12 someone more local or they’re … Hey, these people do email marketing and they want to
0:42:15 take over our hosting as well.
0:42:19 It goes both ways, no matter even if you’re doing a good job.
0:42:24 Now I would say a bigger company in this space, the bigger they get, the more there may be
0:42:31 a brand, the last one I did was the biggest I’ve done that has generated some new business
0:42:32 that have come through referrals.
0:42:33 Okay.
0:42:36 Even after it’s transitioned because of the reputation that they had built, people were
0:42:40 still reaching out to them for new websites, new hostings.
0:42:46 I think the better play here is to arrange terms with that seller of, “Hey, if you get
0:42:53 a lead,” so when I purchased it, we list out the clients one by one, and this is all you’re
0:42:55 getting paid on.
0:42:59 If you have a website, if something new comes from that, that’s mine.
0:43:05 But if you get a lead personally, if someone reaches out to you from your sphere of influence,
0:43:09 that has value and I’ll pay a commission, I’d like to take 20%.
0:43:14 If that’s a $10,000 website project, that’s too grand, I’ll pay you.
0:43:19 It’s business I wouldn’t have had and I want you to know that that has value.
0:43:25 Sometimes that is a way to help close a valuation gap to tell a seller, “Okay, maybe this isn’t
0:43:30 quite as much as you want, but if you want to stay in the fold and sell a little, maybe
0:43:34 you don’t want to manage and design, then we can create revenue there.”
0:43:38 Or if you think, “Hey, Link, I haven’t raised prices in 15 years.
0:43:42 These guys are all paying $10 a month for hosting.
0:43:46 Maybe it should be 25,” because I’ve seen that and I’m like, “Look, man, you’re charging
0:43:50 way too less here a little, but I can’t raise that on the day one because that’s not going
0:43:52 to look good for me.
0:43:55 So you need to think about doing that before.”
0:43:59 Yeah, like the new apartment owner comes in and raises everybody’s rent.
0:44:02 But you also know that if you’re looking at the long term, you’re like, “All right, in
0:44:08 a few years, I can slowly bump these guys up once they’re feeling comfortable with me
0:44:09 and established.
0:44:11 So it is future revenue for sure.
0:44:13 Will they leave you over an extra $10 a month?
0:44:16 Yeah, a couple of might, but most won’t.”
0:44:19 I don’t know if we talked about this recently on the show, but I was telling somebody about
0:44:26 this where the podcast editing service, Podcast FastTrack, they said, “Hey, this was a couple
0:44:27 of years ago.”
0:44:29 They’re like, “Nick, we appreciate your business.
0:44:30 You’ve been a client forever.
0:44:31 Thank you.
0:44:36 But new clients, and we haven’t raised your rate since 2016, new clients come in.
0:44:40 We’re paying up here, and so we need to get you a little bit closer to that.
0:44:46 But what we’re going to do, because it was probably a double or 50%, it was a big jump.
0:44:52 And had they immediately gone to that, probably been like, “Let me go look for some alternatives.”
0:44:54 They said, “Here’s what we’re going to do.
0:44:58 Every quarter, for the next 15 months, we’re going to stair-step you up there.
0:45:02 So eventually you got to get to whatever our new rate is.”
0:45:05 And it was so incremental, you didn’t even notice.
0:45:11 It was like a frog in the boiling water where I had one of these other software that I used,
0:45:12 same story.
0:45:15 “Hey, you’ve been grandfathered at this rate for 10 years, but now we’re going to push
0:45:16 you up here.”
0:45:17 And it was like double.
0:45:21 It made me so angry, it was like, “Had you just done it incrementally, probably would
0:45:25 have never noticed, probably would have yelled at the screen, but instead wasted a whole
0:45:30 day trying to find alternatives and just like, fine.”
0:45:33 It’s like they get the stranglehold on you, and you’re like, “The switching costs are
0:45:34 too high.”
0:45:37 It makes you so mad, but there’s something to that.
0:45:42 Stare-step, that may help the upside valuation is like, “Okay, I’m buying this current level
0:45:49 of recurring revenue, but in today’s fair market value, if I’m able to increase those
0:45:55 rates 50%, 100% over the course of time, all of a sudden it could be worth a little bit
0:45:57 more or I can pay it back sooner.”
0:45:58 Definitely.
0:46:02 I mean, that timeline, you might agree not to do it while you’re making payments for
0:46:03 them.
0:46:06 That seems fair, but the longer term, you may step it.
0:46:12 I mean, I took over accounts that were at $10 a month and I was charging $25, $30, and
0:46:18 I remember people like $30, I mean, that’s 300 times, yeah, but it’s still only $20 a
0:46:19 month.
0:46:23 And there’s one or two people that will just rip your head apart, and then you realize maybe
0:46:28 that’s not a customer I need to hang on to over $20, but we all have the habit of underselling
0:46:32 ourselves and you start to realize, “All right, I’m providing value here.”
0:46:39 And I’m not competing with the discount dollar hosting because I’m value adding this by being
0:46:46 accessible and knowing them when they call my name and not just a number.
0:46:49 That is worth something and will everyone pay for that?
0:46:53 No, but there’s enough people that certainly want that personal touch, so you learn to
0:46:55 lean into that a bit.
0:47:03 So, day-to-day, it’s responding to customer inquiries, it is putting out any technical
0:47:08 fires that might come up, imagine it’s relatively low maintenance and then it’s trying to either
0:47:13 fulfill the design work or the project work that comes through, or kind of oversee, you
0:47:15 know, find somebody to do that.
0:47:21 Do you have a sense of the hours per day, hours per week that goes into it at this point?
0:47:27 I think, genuinely, you know, on a good day where there’s nothing unique going on, I think
0:47:34 it could be a couple hours a day of mostly, like you said, just moving emails, intersecting
0:47:38 between a client and the developer on projects.
0:47:43 You know, if there’s not an outage or something, I mean, that stuff does happen or, you know,
0:47:47 where humans and technology mix or something updates, somebody’s website’s broken, “Oh,
0:47:51 I forgot my email password,” I mean, so there’s a little bit of that stuff.
0:47:57 But it’s very, it’s not brain surgery, it’s not rocket science, you know, not everybody
0:48:01 has to be responded to in five minutes or less.
0:48:05 So you do learn to triage, “Oh, my site’s down, okay, well that’s important, I better
0:48:06 take a look.”
0:48:07 Yeah.
0:48:10 Or, “Can you add these pictures to this page when you get a chance?”
0:48:16 Sure, we’ll get that done in the next day or two, and I’ve got a great, I use something
0:48:20 called a Zoho Desk, so it’s a web-based ticketing tool.
0:48:25 So you try to train your customers to send an email into this, it creates a ticket, I’ve
0:48:29 got my team that can just get a sign of that, and I started allowing team members years ago
0:48:34 to be client-facing so they could reply to the client, “Hey, we got those pictures added.”
0:48:39 And just taking myself out of some of that communication on a day-to-day basis has certainly
0:48:44 freed up my time, because if you’re focused on acquisitions, you do need to have some time
0:48:49 to be able to take those calls, and then you certainly need to have time when you’re integrating.
0:48:54 You get the time to go on vacation when you just added 30 or 40 clients to your fold.
0:48:59 You’ve got to be on call and ready just to make sure, especially if you are migrating
0:49:04 servers from where they’re at to you, there’s plenty of things to go wrong there, and you
0:49:09 don’t want that first impression to be, “Oh, my site’s down now with this new guy.”
0:49:14 Yeah, yeah, yeah, there’s a whole technical side that I probably don’t want to get too
0:49:16 deep into the weeds on that, but something to be aware of.
0:49:17 Yeah, I’ve been there.
0:49:21 I’ve been in those moments where something didn’t go right, and you’ve got an egg on
0:49:26 your face, and you just want to crawl under a rock those days, but those are not the
0:49:27 norm.
0:49:33 Yeah, so it sounds like the work is front-loaded, and all the technical stuff is figure-outable
0:49:35 and the support.
0:49:37 It is, and you learn, you learn.
0:49:42 I definitely know better, and the more I do, times a bat and anything, you’re learning
0:49:45 better to, “Okay, this is what happened last time.
0:49:48 We’re going to do it this way this time,” and to mitigate that, for sure.
0:49:53 That’s sort of what helps with the retention is that relationship that you wouldn’t have
0:49:54 with HostGator.
0:49:59 I don’t mean to pick on HostGator, but if I’m just hosting with them, it’s strictly
0:50:01 I need the service as a utility.
0:50:07 But if you have a relationship with your web person, it’s a little more full service
0:50:12 versus the HostGators are more what I would think the DIY.
0:50:13 You have a little more technical knowledge.
0:50:16 You can just buy in space to host your website.
0:50:21 Yeah, it’s that in-between sweet spot between that DIY person and then that other somebody
0:50:24 who maybe has somebody in-house doing their web.
0:50:31 So it’s like that middle of the market, and they’re used to paying $30 to, I imagine,
0:50:33 maybe $100, $200 a month.
0:50:37 It’s just their website budget to keep it online.
0:50:38 Exactly.
0:50:45 If you have a web guy or gal, and they take comfort in knowing that they get those domain
0:50:48 name things in the mail, is this real?
0:50:49 Nope.
0:50:50 They get spam.
0:50:51 Should I click on?
0:50:52 Nope.
0:50:53 Yeah, that’s the only direct mail that I get.
0:50:55 It’s like domain registration scale, that stuff.
0:50:56 Yeah.
0:50:57 Your thing is going to expire.
0:50:59 You’re like, “Well, yeah, but it’s set to auto-renew.”
0:51:00 Like, “What is this garbage?”
0:51:01 Yeah.
0:51:03 So that is part of the value.
0:51:06 You’re there to, I didn’t think I should click on this.
0:51:07 Nope.
0:51:08 Don’t click on that.
0:51:11 You’re just there to kind of help them with those questions that come up.
0:51:16 If your email can be part of hosting, an email is a little more certainly high-maintenance,
0:51:18 it’s certainly a critical service.
0:51:22 People will lose less sleep over their website being down for an hour or so, but if email’s
0:51:24 down, it’s a bigger deal.
0:51:25 But it’s also sticky.
0:51:30 If you’re good at keeping the lights on, there’s value in those services.
0:51:35 The one that I had briefly thought about trying to acquire was this virtual assistant service
0:51:42 in the Philippines, because I had this virtual assistant site at the time, and I want to
0:51:44 say it was the Empire Flippers.
0:51:49 It was like their in-house agency that they were trying to spin off, and I forget what
0:51:50 they were.
0:51:56 It would have been a relatively low acquisition cost or asking price for it, but they may
0:51:59 have only had two clients or three clients.
0:52:02 It was like, “Okay, if this one guy leaves, that’s like half of the business.”
0:52:03 Yeah.
0:52:10 It didn’t feel super diversified, and it’s like there’s a lot of labor and management,
0:52:17 like lower margins, still had recurring revenue, but it was more of that service-based business.
0:52:19 But that was one that I had briefly considered.
0:52:24 I mean, I’ve learned a lot by going through these and talking to so many companies, even
0:52:29 the ones you don’t end up doing anything with, I’ve seen lots of profit, lots of statements.
0:52:35 I can’t think of another industry that is so diverse as this one in terms of how people
0:52:37 set stuff up.
0:52:41 The margins are all over the place, because if you’ve got a brick-and-mortar office and
0:52:48 you’re paying W-2 employees, your labor could be 70% of your revenue.
0:52:49 Yeah.
0:52:53 I’m not saying one’s better or worse than the other, but there’s just a lot of places
0:52:59 for, I think, creativity and also thinking about it from a different angle, lawn care
0:53:01 probably is much more similar.
0:53:03 Lawn care is lawn care, right?
0:53:07 Looking at different lawn care companies, but in this space, you’ve got remote hybrid
0:53:08 in office.
0:53:14 You’ve got a whole wide range of services and pricing, and so it’s not really the Wild
0:53:17 West still, but it’s still quite a range.
0:53:20 So I think that’s where you can find some opportunity.
0:53:21 I like it.
0:53:22 This is cool.
0:53:23 What’s next for you?
0:53:24 What do you want to take this thing?
0:53:25 What are you excited about these days?
0:53:26 It’s a great question.
0:53:31 It’s a hard one to answer, because I do find myself at that, as many of us do, I guess,
0:53:40 the crossroads of having been doing this 25 years and getting to that age or an age where
0:53:41 you think, “Is this what I’m going to be doing forever?”
0:53:43 And then that could be okay with that, but…
0:53:46 Somebody’s going to send you a letter after this, so it’s going to be great.
0:53:52 They might, but other things I want to do, and I think what I’d like to do is diversify
0:53:58 what I do, continue to do this, but maybe pursue acquisitions a little bit bigger.
0:54:03 I’d like to acquire some accompanies in some different industries, as well as some brick
0:54:04 and mortar.
0:54:08 I mean, for me, there’s a valuable and something tangible that you can do with your hands.
0:54:09 And I fix this.
0:54:10 I built that.
0:54:16 I like that aspect, and also, I think, like you said at the beginning of the show, my
0:54:22 interest in real estate, diversifying one’s income stream, I’d rather have 10 side hustles
0:54:25 all making 10 grand a month than to have one making it all.
0:54:26 I just…
0:54:30 I guess I sleep better at night with diversification.
0:54:31 I find it interesting.
0:54:33 It keeps me engaged.
0:54:38 So I do think looking at some other opportunities, whether it’s some consulting work, other ways
0:54:43 to stay sort of in the lane, but layer that and use the marketing in other places.
0:54:47 So that’s a long-winded answer, I’m not quite sure.
0:54:52 But us entrepreneurs get a little stir crazy if we can’t mix it up a little, right?
0:54:56 Having $10,000 worth of income streams sounds pretty awesome.
0:54:57 I mean, I don’t know.
0:54:58 I just threw that number out.
0:54:59 It could be $1,000, right?
0:55:04 But I guess diversification, and maybe that’d be a crazy problem, you’d go nuts managing
0:55:05 it all.
0:55:12 But I’m a big believer in finding good people to work with that you are not having to tell
0:55:16 them what to do, and they can manage and lead and do things on their own, so that independence.
0:55:20 So I truly believe that you can find a way, you can create anything you want.
0:55:22 You just got to make the past.
0:55:23 Yeah.
0:55:27 Again, super interesting, super creative way to go about it and to build this multi-six
0:55:33 figure income for just on an ongoing level just a couple of hours a day.
0:55:37 I think a lot of people excited, like I said, maybe somebody will send you a letter, but
0:55:41 imagine some letters are going to start flying after this episode.
0:55:46 Windhill.com, that’s where you can find Link’s design agency, linkmoser.com is the home base.
0:55:49 We’ll also link up his LinkedIn as well.
0:55:55 Let’s wrap this thing up with your number one tip for side hustle nation 2025 edition.
0:55:58 Number one tip, hands down, just get out there and do it.
0:56:00 All this stuff is a contact sport.
0:56:05 I’m sure it’s been said many times before, but you’re not going to get a side hustle,
0:56:10 a business, a job, a boyfriend, a girlfriend by sitting on the sidelines.
0:56:14 You just got to get out there, accept some risk, know that it’s going to be uncomfortable
0:56:17 and scary and you’re going to make some mistakes, but you’ll learn and you’ll pivot.
0:56:20 So we’re still January, it’s still the beginning of the year.
0:56:25 So I say, make your goals, share them with someone else, make it known and then just
0:56:26 start hitting it.
0:56:27 Make it real.
0:56:31 Give us some accountability out there, but get out there and do it, right?
0:56:33 You can’t play the game from the sidelines.
0:56:39 This is similar to the 2022 tip, which was don’t look a failure as a bad word as long
0:56:42 as you’re failing forward, you’re learning something from those mistakes.
0:56:47 It’s all adds up to that cumulative experience and hopefully some forward progress there.
0:56:51 A couple takeaways from me before we wrap, number one, this is kind of a game of right
0:56:52 place, right time.
0:56:58 So it’s this volume game of sending out a lot of outreach and the more you can personalize
0:56:59 it, the better.
0:57:04 But trying to do that at scale and hopefully get a few bites, like Link said, 10, 12% response
0:57:09 rate, really, really strong for that personalized outreach because it cuts through the clutter.
0:57:13 Then it comes kind of this diligence phase, looking at the revenue pie and really valuing
0:57:16 that recurring revenue a little bit higher.
0:57:21 And then this trying to build those relationships quickly and concisely and build up rapport
0:57:25 both with the existing owner because they have something set up to do that handoff, right?
0:57:30 And then with the existing client base for continuity for that recurring revenue.
0:57:34 If you liked this episode, I think you’ll get a kick out of Ryan Golgowski in episode
0:57:35 five, 50.
0:57:40 We talked about his web design agency wasn’t growing through acquisition per se, but had
0:57:42 set it up for recurring revenue.
0:57:49 I think maybe $200 a month was his average price for web design and ongoing maintenance
0:57:53 for targeting almost exclusively pressure washing companies.
0:57:55 It was like, man, it was a super inspiring episode.
0:57:59 I think he was doing crazy, like $90, $100,000 a month recurring revenue, building websites
0:58:01 for pressure washing companies.
0:58:05 And then a brick and mortar example of this inserting yourself into a cash flow that’s
0:58:12 already happening was Hannah Ingram in episode 571, where she went out and found this semi-delapidated
0:58:19 brick and mortar car wash in town, no money down deal, owner financing, bought herself
0:58:20 this cash flow.
0:58:21 And she was doing really well.
0:58:26 It was kind of an interesting, inspiring angle to go look at.
0:58:30 She was maybe doing a half hour a day worth of work there in exchange for that income
0:58:31 stream.
0:58:34 But big thanks to Link for sharing his insight.
0:58:37 Once again, you can also check out Link’s previous episode on The Side Hustle Show.
0:58:38 We can link that up.
0:58:42 Big thanks to our sponsors for helping make this content free for everyone.
0:58:48 As always, you can hit up sidehustlenation.com/deals for all the latest offers from our sponsors
0:58:49 in one place.
0:58:52 Thank you for supporting the advertisers that support the show.
0:58:53 That’s it for me.
0:58:54 Thank you so much for tuning in.
0:58:58 If you find a value in the show, the greatest compliment is to share it with a friend.
0:59:02 So fire up that text message to that friend of yours who’s always looking for those little
0:59:05 life hacks, those creative ways to build extra income.
0:59:06 I think they’ll like this episode.
0:59:10 Until next time, let’s go out there and make something happen, and I’ll catch you in the
0:59:11 next edition of The Side Hustle Show.

0:00:04 Here’s an oldie but a goodie from the archives, from the Side Hustle Show, greatest hits
0:00:05 collection.
0:00:06 What’s up?
0:00:07 What’s up, Nick?
0:00:08 Aloper here.
0:00:13 Welcome to the Side Hustle Show, because your 9-5 may make you a living, but your 5-9 makes
0:00:15 you alive.
0:00:18 Service businesses can get a bad rap.
0:00:20 After all, there’s still clients to deal with.
0:00:22 There is actual labor involved in fulfillment.
0:00:28 They’re just not as glamorous as the other more, quote, “passive” income models.
0:00:33 But you should know that more Side Hustle Show guests started with a service-based business
0:00:35 model than any other.
0:00:39 On today’s show, you’ll learn how to set your business up from day one to provide great
0:00:45 value to clients, yes, but without relying on you to do the actual work.
0:00:48 I am excited to welcome Tyler Gillespie to the show.
0:00:49 Tyler, what’s going on?
0:00:50 Not much, man.
0:00:51 Thanks so much for having me.
0:00:52 Excited to be here.
0:00:53 You bet.
0:00:54 So Tyler is a longtime listener.
0:01:00 We first connected way back, I want to say 2014, over a World Domination Summit ticket.
0:01:06 But in any case, Tyler today runs productized.services, where he helps people with this unique brand
0:01:08 of service-based businesses.
0:01:11 There are a couple huge benefits to Tyler’s approach.
0:01:14 One, all of a sudden, you’re not limited by your own skills.
0:01:18 You just have to have the ability to find clients and then other people with the skills
0:01:19 that they need.
0:01:20 So that’s huge.
0:01:24 It practically opens up the realm of potential services that you could offer.
0:01:30 And number two, since the business no longer relies on you as being the hands-on mechanic,
0:01:34 it becomes that much more sellable down the road, which is something that Tyler’s done
0:01:36 a couple of times now.
0:01:41 If you hit up at sidehustlenation.com/tyler, you’ll find links to all the resources I mentioned
0:01:43 along with the full text summary of our call.
0:01:49 While you’re there, be sure to download my free list of 101 service business ideas that
0:01:52 might just be ripe for the type of productization we’re talking about today.
0:01:58 So Tyler, your latest service was called Applaus Lab, which helped e-commerce brands
0:02:00 get video testimonials.
0:02:03 Was this thing started with the exit in mind?
0:02:04 100%.
0:02:05 Yeah.
0:02:10 I think the timing as far as when the exit would happen or if it would happen definitely
0:02:11 was not planned.
0:02:15 And I think that’s a lot of the part of what I kind of share and try to help other service
0:02:18 businesses with is having the optionality.
0:02:21 Because I think that’s something that a lot of people don’t have.
0:02:26 So when I started Applaus Lab from day one, it was very much intentional with just how
0:02:31 I was designing the business and thinking about and putting myself in investor shoes.
0:02:35 If someone was going to buy this down the road, what can I start with right now?
0:02:39 The more you do this, the more you learn, the more businesses you start, you get better
0:02:43 and faster at actually going from zero to 100.
0:02:46 And I think the previous business taught me that.
0:02:49 I think the first few years running a content writing service, which was called Content
0:02:53 Pros, before we sold that business, there was a lot of things I wish I would have done
0:02:55 a lot sooner.
0:02:59 So starting Applaus Lab, it was just like, “Cool, day zero, here’s exactly what I need
0:03:00 to do.”
0:03:05 And I think that really helped set it up for success because it was about 13 months and
0:03:09 we had a buyer come in and buy the business, so a competitor actually.
0:03:10 Oh, interesting.
0:03:11 Like acquisition.
0:03:14 We can’t beat them, join them type of deal.
0:03:15 Exactly.
0:03:16 Yeah.
0:03:19 So the company actually, and I did an interview with the founder of Testimonial Hero, who
0:03:23 I don’t know if you know, Sam over there, and we had done some partnership stuff.
0:03:27 We kind of targeted different avatars, even though we both did video testimonials.
0:03:34 So it started as just kind of a relationship and then grew into him actually being interested
0:03:35 in acquiring the business.
0:03:41 So it was a very natural and kind of fun to use a strategic acquisition for them.
0:03:42 Okay.
0:03:46 That was something that was interesting in going through the selling process for the
0:03:51 virtual assistant site, which we covered on an episode last month.
0:03:55 It was surprising the number of other people in the space who were interested in it.
0:03:57 And it’s like, “This would complement our existing operations.”
0:04:03 And so that wasn’t something that was necessarily on my radar as potential buyers, but that
0:04:05 was several of the interested parties.
0:04:09 Did you have a background in video production?
0:04:14 What gave you the confidence or inspiration to go into this video testimonial space?
0:04:15 Yeah.
0:04:17 Zero background in video editing, production, et cetera.
0:04:21 I think it’s just more, it came from like a knowledge of like, “Cool, this was something
0:04:23 we wish I had with previous businesses.”
0:04:27 And it was always a lot of friction with gathering video testimonials, right?
0:04:32 And it was always like, “Man, these are like one of the most powerful assets you can have
0:04:37 in your business to leverage having someone else kind of do the selling for you.”
0:04:41 But it was just one of those things that always got pushed to the bottom of the list, you
0:04:42 know?
0:04:44 It was like, “Cool, we need video testimonials.”
0:04:47 And then it turned into, “Okay, what if we just got written ones?”
0:04:51 And then it turned into, “Why don’t we just write them for the customer and then ask them
0:04:52 to approve them?”
0:04:57 It was just kind of, we went through that process, and I knew the power of them.
0:04:59 So it was just really kind of solved that problem.
0:05:03 And I looked in the market, and there just wasn’t that many solutions.
0:05:05 So I thought I would kind of give a stab at it.
0:05:10 But there definitely was a learning curve at the beginning with just hiring, training,
0:05:16 and working with a team of video editors, which that aspect was definitely new to me.
0:05:22 Which came first, the customer or the production staff?
0:05:23 Customer for sure.
0:05:24 Okay.
0:05:25 This was like the chicken or the egg solution.
0:05:26 Yeah, yeah.
0:05:29 So I put it out there, and actually one of my first customers was a buddy of mine who
0:05:35 runs an oil and gas company down here in, well, he comes in and out of Columbia where
0:05:37 I’m based, but he’s also from Oklahoma.
0:05:42 And he said, “Man, if you can get me, if you can get these oil and gas guys out in the
0:05:47 field to leave a video testimonial, I’ve been trying for years, I will pay you.”
0:05:52 So he signed up for a couple, and then I just kind of went to work, and we ended up capturing
0:05:56 I think over 15 video testimonials for him or something.
0:05:58 He had been trying to capture these and just never could.
0:06:01 So that was kind of the first customer that kicked off the business, which was really
0:06:02 fun.
0:06:03 Okay.
0:06:09 So I’m trying to think, if I was going down this path, first starting with an idea or
0:06:14 starting with a problem that either I’ve experienced in my own life or through conversations,
0:06:18 like you said, “Hey, we really could have used this in another operation that we were
0:06:22 doing from other people that would talk to you like the power of testimonials, but it’s
0:06:23 really hard.”
0:06:29 So if those kind of complaints or those kind of annoyances start to bubble up in your own
0:06:33 thinking, in your own life, like, “Okay, maybe there’s a business on the other side of that.”
0:06:38 Even if you don’t necessarily have the skills to go out and solve that yourself, the odds
0:06:44 are somebody does, and maybe you could position yourself as the branded solution, the middleman,
0:06:49 the connector between those two, which sounds like that was the game plan here.
0:06:50 Absolutely.
0:06:51 Yeah.
0:06:53 I mean, I think a lot of things start with scratching your own itch, and that was kind
0:06:59 of the initial pain that I knew, and then I confirmed it with talking with people inside
0:07:04 my network, and then the validation was someone actually paying money, which then kind of
0:07:08 gave me the confidence to kind of fully dive into the business at the time.
0:07:11 What came next from this first customer?
0:07:13 Was there a greater marketing push?
0:07:16 Is there now, like, “Oh, shoot, no, we got to figure out how to fulfill this stuff?”
0:07:17 I’m curious.
0:07:18 What came next?
0:07:21 I gave myself a little bit of a window to execute and deliver the work.
0:07:25 So I think after that first kind of payment, it was building out some onboarding and then
0:07:30 figuring out kind of how I wanted to actually leverage the service, because it started out
0:07:35 where I was actually doing the interviews with the plan to have someone outsource the
0:07:37 actual interviewing.
0:07:42 So we would get connected with this particular customer’s customers, and then we would interview
0:07:46 them with a series of questions, and then we would hand that over to the video editor,
0:07:47 right?
0:07:51 I quickly found out that that was not going to scale very well.
0:07:55 For many reasons, one was just the timeline at which a lot of this happened, right?
0:08:01 Because let’s say I was doing some video testimonials for your customers, and I’m now connected
0:08:02 with them.
0:08:07 Now it’s coordinating schedules, which oftentimes became two, three weeks out before someone
0:08:09 was available potentially.
0:08:14 Some were faster, but that was the big thing, was just the delay and actually getting it
0:08:15 all done.
0:08:22 So we ended up switching from the one-to-one interviews to more of an asynchronous interview
0:08:28 style, where we would actually pre-record all the questions via what we called like a capture
0:08:33 link, and then we would send the customers that link, and they could just easily just
0:08:38 record on their browser phone or tablet whenever they wanted, and it would kind of guide them
0:08:40 through a series of 10 questions automatically.
0:08:45 So that’s kind of what we ended up going to, which really streamed the line operations and
0:08:46 made things a lot simpler.
0:08:50 But it took a handful of customers to kind of get to that point and realize that that
0:08:53 was going to be one of the issues there.
0:08:58 That is an interesting way to streamline it, rather than doing one-on-one, like Zoom recordings
0:09:03 to get those reactions like, “Hey, look, we’re going to ask the same questions to every person.
0:09:05 We might as well pre-record that.”
0:09:07 And so that’s kind of a cool way to do it.
0:09:10 Was it similar with Content Pros, your previous business, saying, “I don’t want to be the
0:09:13 one doing the content writing.
0:09:18 I just want to go out and find customers,” curious like, “What was the marketing like
0:09:19 for that business?”
0:09:23 I don’t think it was ever like, I didn’t ever want to do the work.
0:09:27 I think you’re kind of when you start a service business, right?
0:09:33 In my case, I’m more of kind of have the business owner mindset, so I always lean towards like
0:09:35 outsourcing first, right?
0:09:39 A lot of people start service businesses and your audience might have skill sets, maybe
0:09:43 they’re a writer, graphic designer, et cetera, and for them to just go and start a graphic
0:09:49 design business or writing business and do the work is very natural, which is completely
0:09:50 fine.
0:09:54 But when you’re doing the work, you can get kind of in that service business trap, right?
0:09:57 Or you’re doing and fulfilling and it’s hard to get out of that.
0:10:03 I think you want to as quickly as possible move to outsourcing what we call the mechanism
0:10:05 of your business.
0:10:11 I think just I don’t know if it was how I grew up or just the way I was approaching business,
0:10:16 but even Content Pros, the very first business, or one of the first online businesses or product
0:10:22 services we started, we outsourced the writing right away, the first customer that paid.
0:10:26 We brought on a writing team, it was the same with Applause Labs, so I think that can be
0:10:32 very advantageous to like immediately working on the business and is definitely one of those
0:10:37 things that you’re going to need to have implemented back to the point of like building a business
0:10:39 to sell down the road as well.
0:10:44 It sounds like with Applause Labs specifically, there wasn’t a ton of other players in the
0:10:50 space doing the same or doing a similar service, but with content writing, there’s a million
0:10:54 in one place is to get outsourced content written like what gave you the confidence
0:10:59 to say we can stand out in this space, we can gain customers in this space.
0:11:05 How we approached it was actually trying to stand out by not trying to be the cheapest.
0:11:10 I think to your point, there’s a lot of content writing services and a lot of them are I guess
0:11:14 kind of considered content mills in many ways and we wanted to really be like, okay, what
0:11:18 if we took the other approach and didn’t try to compete with everyone on price, but more
0:11:25 of just priced ourselves higher and really kind of pushed quality industry experts and
0:11:28 focus on more like thought leadership content.
0:11:31 So that was really the angle that we took.
0:11:34 Where do you find your first customers for the content business?
0:11:40 It was network, which is very common and then cold email.
0:11:45 So those were the two combos and we really wrote the cold email train for a majority
0:11:49 of the growth of the business to be completely honest, cold email and then referrals kind
0:11:54 of came naturally as well, but that was kind of at least somewhat of the predictable driver
0:11:55 for us at the time.
0:12:01 That’s interesting to say it was cold email, it was like, hey, nobody knows we exist.
0:12:06 So we got to help people that we exist and that channel was through cold email.
0:12:10 Now I’m curious, what was the initial pitch like and I imagine it was honed and tweaked
0:12:12 and improved over the years.
0:12:18 Oh man, we got the cold email systems that we built out for that business was just really,
0:12:19 really intense.
0:12:24 I think at one month, we were sending 20,000 cold emails a month, which is absurd and it
0:12:29 was definitely, as we got better, that number went down, but we just, we increased kind
0:12:33 of the volume and we really tried to keep the quality up and we had a great kind of
0:12:35 a dedicated internal team managing it.
0:12:37 Yeah, we just had some really unique reach outs.
0:12:42 We were really, I think ahead of our time with like personalization, which now is like
0:12:47 very common, but we would pull in a lot of different stats at the time, which weren’t
0:12:53 really common and create, even though they were mass emails, they definitely felt and
0:12:58 looked more personable than most people were doing at the time where most people just leveraged
0:13:00 first name and company.
0:13:07 We were leveraging like first name, company, location, blog posts, recent blog post title
0:13:12 that they wrote and different things like that as well, creating like a first line customization
0:13:18 that we’d have a VA kind of personalized through all of the spreadsheets before they were uploaded
0:13:19 and sent.
0:13:20 So I think those really helped.
0:13:25 I think we were averaging like a three to 5% positive reply rate on all of our campaigns,
0:13:28 which was at the time really, really good.
0:13:30 Definitely a volume-placed play here.
0:13:36 We had 20,000 emails a month and hoping for just a few percent to take the bait and engage
0:13:40 was there a specific ask at the end of the email?
0:13:42 Was it directly pitching your services?
0:13:43 What was the ask?
0:13:44 Oh, yeah.
0:13:45 So it was a content strategy call.
0:13:50 So we would push everyone to a call where we would kind of evaluate their current content
0:13:54 strategy and then share with them some ideas.
0:13:57 So more of a value kind of a consultative type of close.
0:13:58 So that was the pitch.
0:14:03 So most people went through a phone call and then they would sign up and trial our service
0:14:06 and we had like a discounted first post try us out.
0:14:08 So that converted really, really well.
0:14:13 And we were the, I mean, yeah, that was the huge driver really to take us from a few customers
0:14:16 up to 70 or so.
0:14:17 Yeah.
0:14:18 Wow.
0:14:19 Was it you doing those initial strategy calls?
0:14:20 Initially, yeah.
0:14:24 So my partner and I, I mean, I think both of us, you know, very similar skill sets and
0:14:27 like sales and, you know, that’s it.
0:14:30 So that was like one of the last things we outsourced essentially, and we just really
0:14:37 focused on hiring out operations, customer success, editorial team, writers, and, and
0:14:41 then we just really did sales and we rode that, you know, all the way till, you know,
0:14:44 just about till we closed or sold the business.
0:14:49 For those 20,000 emails a month, how did you figure out who to contact, like how to populate
0:14:52 the receiver end of that?
0:14:57 For that business, we definitely tried a few different or quite a few different angles
0:14:59 and, and that wasn’t like our average.
0:15:02 I think we got up to that, I think.
0:15:05 And even now, I mean, today, like Coldy Mail still works.
0:15:10 It works if you’re getting really personalized and specific and it’s definitely not a quantity
0:15:11 play anymore.
0:15:15 But for us, it was converting and we were going after a lot of like agencies and, and
0:15:16 SaaS companies.
0:15:20 So that 20,000 was segmented into like a few three or four different avatars that we were
0:15:21 kind of targeting.
0:15:23 So, so that kind of helped as well.
0:15:26 But yeah, that’s kind of how we approached it.
0:15:30 More with Tyler in just a moment, including pricing, positioning, and setting up for that
0:15:33 big exit right after this.
0:15:38 Running a retail business is no joke, especially if you’re selling online and in person.
0:15:42 And especially if you’re doing it as a side hustle, but Shopify point of sale makes it
0:15:43 simple.
0:15:48 Shopify POS is your all in one command center seamlessly connecting your in store and online
0:15:52 operations, whether you’ve got one location or a thousand.
0:15:55 That means customers can shop however they want and you’ve got the tools to help close
0:15:57 the sale every time.
0:16:00 And here’s the kicker, acquiring new customers is expensive.
0:16:04 You already know that Shopify POS helps you keep customers coming back with personalized
0:16:09 experiences that people have come to expect and the first party data that give your marketing
0:16:13 team a serious edge, even if that marketing team is just you right now.
0:16:18 Plus the numbers don’t lie, businesses using Shopify POS see an average of an 8.9% boost
0:16:23 in sales and a 22% better total cost of ownership.
0:16:28 For more, check out shopify.com/sidehustle all lowercase and learn how to create the
0:16:35 best retail experiences without complexity, shopify.com/sidehustle.
0:16:39 Friends don’t let friends overpay for wireless, which is why I’m excited to partner with Mint
0:16:40 Mobile for this episode.
0:16:44 Don’t let the traditional big wireless carriers take you for a ride this year.
0:16:49 I made the switch to Mint Mobile over five years ago and haven’t looked back saving thousands
0:16:50 of dollars over that time.
0:16:54 With Mint Mobile, you get premium wireless plans starting at 15 bucks a month.
0:16:58 All of those plans come with high speed data and unlimited talk and text on the nation’s
0:17:00 largest 5G network.
0:17:04 You can use your own phone with any Mint Mobile plan and even bring over your existing phone
0:17:07 number and all your existing contacts.
0:17:10 So join me in ditching overpriced wireless this year and get three months of premium
0:17:14 wireless service from Mint Mobile for just 15 bucks a month.
0:17:16 If you like your money, Mint Mobile’s for you.
0:17:23 Got plans at mintmobile.com/sidehustle, that’s mintmobile.com/sidehustle, upfront payment
0:17:29 of $45 for three month 5Gb plan required, equivalent to $15 per month.
0:17:33 New customer offer for first three months only, then full price plan options available.
0:17:38 Taxes and fees extra, see Mint Mobile for details.
0:17:45 With applause lab, has that shifted to more personal outreach or what did you find effective
0:17:46 in driving customers there?
0:17:50 Oftentimes, growth comes from your network initially.
0:17:51 Just people closest.
0:17:55 So I mean, that’s why it’s so vital to kind of build up your network and cultivate relationships
0:17:59 because that’s going to just be about an asset you can have over time.
0:18:03 So that was a huge driver initially with applause lab was, you know, I had a pretty decent network
0:18:08 and I just reached out to friends and people and colleagues in my network that I thought
0:18:14 the service could, you know, be valuable to and so that is really what kind of kicked
0:18:19 off the business in many ways because it resonated with people and they were willing to pay for
0:18:20 it.
0:18:21 So that was great.
0:18:27 And then after that, I had a small cold email campaign, but it was super personalized.
0:18:33 I also did like a lot of networking, you know, which nowadays, you know, in some of some Facebook
0:18:38 groups that were really relevant, as well, like shared some of the journey on like indie
0:18:40 hackers and places like that.
0:18:45 So I think those are really viable places to go initially once kind of your, your networks
0:18:49 tapped, but that’s kind of where drivers initially that I was focused on.
0:18:53 How did you figure out how much to charge for this type of service?
0:18:55 Yeah, pricing is always, always challenging.
0:18:58 I think initially I looked in the market, right?
0:19:02 And testimonial hero, one of my competitors that ended up buying us, you know, they were
0:19:08 doing in person video testimonials, but they were charging anywhere from six to $10,000
0:19:09 of video.
0:19:13 So they were going very more enterprise in person, really high quality.
0:19:15 So I was like, okay, interesting.
0:19:21 And but then on the flip side, there was really no other service doing this at a much lower
0:19:22 cost.
0:19:28 There was just pure software place where it’s kind of do it yourself type of video testimonials.
0:19:34 You’ll see a lot of services, you know, 50 to $150 a month that will just, you can use
0:19:38 their software to capture testimonials, but then you still have to do all the editing
0:19:42 and et cetera to make it look good.
0:19:46 So that was kind of my initial, like looking at the market kind of play.
0:19:50 And once, once I had kind of an idea of what that looked like, and then found some agencies
0:19:55 that were doing it for a couple of thousand dollars, a video, or even around a thousand.
0:19:57 So that was kind of anchored the pricing.
0:20:01 And then I looked, okay, how could, how much would it cost me if I built out kind of my
0:20:03 dream team, had a video editor?
0:20:08 We captured these and really leveraged that to kind of set the pricing.
0:20:11 And I came up with kind of a very affordable option.
0:20:16 I thought, you know, which was around three to $400, a video testimonial kind of fully
0:20:20 edited, produced, and captured from your best customers.
0:20:24 So that was kind of what we ended up pricing the service at, which was drastically cheaper
0:20:28 than anything in the market, which I think that also helped us, you know, look really
0:20:31 attractive to a lot of people that needed that service, you know?
0:20:32 Yeah.
0:20:35 That’s interesting to say, hey, people were going really high end.
0:20:41 Other companies were going really low kind of a DIY software model, but there was some
0:20:45 room in the middle, which is interesting and say, okay, here’s what we can do.
0:20:51 And then backing out some of your projected costs in labor to fulfill that.
0:20:55 Is there a target, especially when you’re outsourcing the labor from the very beginning,
0:21:00 is there a target margin that you’re shooting for on this type of operation?
0:21:01 Yeah.
0:21:02 100%.
0:21:09 So like typically like the cost of goods sold, of like having someone fulfill the work for
0:21:14 you, like I always try to aim between that like 30 and 40% mark, which gives you like
0:21:18 a 60 to 70% gross margin.
0:21:22 So it’s always kind of an interesting way to like look in when you’re looking at price
0:21:25 or services is like, can I like get this fulfilled?
0:21:30 They’re like, what would the cost be if it was 30% of what I’m charging?
0:21:32 So that’s kind of how I looked at it.
0:21:35 And not every service is like that, but it kind of helps you because you at least want
0:21:36 that margin.
0:21:40 Like if you don’t have at least a 50 to 60% gross profit margin, it’s just going to make
0:21:47 it really difficult to scale down the road if you want to hire other people in marketing,
0:21:48 et cetera.
0:21:53 So that’s kind of a rough percentage to kind of aim for at least I believe initially.
0:21:54 Yeah.
0:22:00 It’s an interesting space to play in because you see the same thing in like virtual assistant
0:22:01 companies.
0:22:06 Well, they’ll charge the client 35, 40 bucks an hour and then to have any margin to play
0:22:10 with, they got to turn around and pay that assistant half that or sometimes less.
0:22:12 And it’s an interesting one.
0:22:17 Have you, did you ever run into either in the writing business or the testimonial business
0:22:21 clients saying, if they’re the ones doing the work, if this video editor is the guy
0:22:23 doing the work, why don’t I just go hire him directly?
0:22:28 Like I’m thinking, okay, if I hire a house cleaning company that operates on a similar
0:22:33 model, maybe it’s 100 bucks, but they’re turning around and paying the cleaner 30, 40 to come
0:22:34 and do it.
0:22:37 It’s like, well, shoot, I’ll just do business directly with the cleaner, pay them 50 and
0:22:40 they’re happier and I’m saving money too.
0:22:41 Yeah.
0:22:46 I think, well, that’s a dilemma with any business really, but service businesses specifically,
0:22:53 I think you should be providing, like it should be an obvious value that makes up for the paying,
0:22:56 the switching costs for them to just manage it themselves because there’s other things
0:22:58 that come with that, right?
0:23:06 You could just go and hire, use the DIY software, but then someone needs to manage that, capture,
0:23:10 someone needs to then hire the video editor, manage the video editor.
0:23:19 So like there was built-in value that hopefully, well, makes up for the customer’s time and
0:23:21 the value they value their time at.
0:23:23 So I think that’s one way to look at it.
0:23:27 I think for us, like we ended up, and I’ll just tell you, we ended up using a service
0:23:32 called video ask, which you may be familiar with, which is a really cool, it’s a capture
0:23:36 tool to capture video testimonials for a Plaza.
0:23:39 But what we did, which was really unique was like, cool, we’re going to leverage this tool.
0:23:45 You could go out and get this tool yourself, record your own videos, send it to your customers,
0:23:47 get the footage, edit it, et cetera.
0:23:50 But what we’re going to do is we’re going to leverage this, we’re going to actually hire
0:23:55 a spokesperson to record all these questions that are proven questions.
0:23:57 We’re going to build out the whole video ask.
0:24:00 We’re going to create your own special capture link.
0:24:04 And all you have to do is send that link to your customers.
0:24:07 Once they submit it, all the footage comes into our video team.
0:24:08 We review it.
0:24:14 We take that 12 minutes of footage, pick out the best parts, edit it to a 90 to a 120 second
0:24:19 version that’s fully produced, edited with your brand CTA, and then we give that to you
0:24:21 that you can just embed on your website.
0:24:26 So that was kind of the value prop in kind of that specific business and process where
0:24:30 once people could kind of see that, it was a no brainer for the cost because for them
0:24:34 to try to do that all themselves, and that’s the benefit of a service, hopefully you have
0:24:39 the efficiencies of scale as well, right, like over time where even if someone wanted
0:24:45 to do it on their own, it would probably still be the same or even more to do it themselves,
0:24:46 you know?
0:24:47 Right.
0:24:48 I like that.
0:24:52 That’s another question for sure, but you know, hopefully you’re marketing and looking
0:24:59 for people that aren’t the DIY crowd and they’re happy to pay you to kind of do it for them,
0:25:00 you know?
0:25:01 Yeah, that makes sense.
0:25:02 All right.
0:25:07 So my understanding of Tyler’s process so far is, number one, come up with a problem
0:25:12 that is at once valuable to businesses but difficult or expensive for them to solve on
0:25:13 their own.
0:25:18 Number two, go sell a solution to that problem, and number three, go find a qualified contractor
0:25:22 or employee to help create and deliver that solution.
0:25:28 Tyler, with applause lab, was there any recurring element to these customers that you found?
0:25:33 Or was it just kind of a one and done, we’ll go and conquest you three, five, 10 testimonials,
0:25:34 however many that you need?
0:25:35 Yeah.
0:25:36 That’s a great question.
0:25:40 I think this is one of the things, obviously, when you’re designing to exit, recurring revenue
0:25:41 is a huge thing.
0:25:47 And I think I was like immediately, let’s get recurring revenue in from day zero and
0:25:52 I had to learn the hard way that not all business models for your audience fit into a recurring
0:25:57 model or you have to get creative with how you position it with some of your offerings.
0:26:03 Because for me, like a lot of people didn’t need a video testimonial, just that model,
0:26:06 need a video testimonial every month on a recurring basis.
0:26:15 So it definitely moved into the packaged offering where we would sell packages of 24812 or 24.
0:26:20 And that seemed to work really well where you could buy a package and then you could
0:26:22 use it whenever you wanted.
0:26:26 So my packaged offerings were priced a little higher.
0:26:30 And then I did, after someone tried us, offer them a subscription, which was kind of on
0:26:36 the back end, but it was a yearly subscription where you could buy any amount of video testimonials
0:26:40 you wanted, you got a discount, it was a 12 month subscription, and then you could use
0:26:43 those whenever you wanted through the year.
0:26:46 So that actually was a huge hit and that fit well.
0:26:51 So I was able to kind of tackle the subscription element, but then as well gave my customers
0:26:55 the flexibility where they’re not getting charged every month for something.
0:27:00 There’s a lot of out of their control as well when they can get a customer to say yes when
0:27:04 someone’s in the right stage in the buyer’s journey or customer journey.
0:27:08 So that was actually what we ended up moving towards.
0:27:12 Small package up front, try us out, and then we would upsell them into a 12 month subscription
0:27:13 on the back end.
0:27:14 Okay.
0:27:20 So if they happen upon a customer who is singing their praises, now they have a system to capture
0:27:26 that and that system was applause lab, like, hey, here’s somebody, you ought to go in contact.
0:27:30 That’s what kind of made it nice and flexible for them as well, because as those opportunities
0:27:32 arose, they could easily just funnel them in.
0:27:36 And that was what we were trying to create was a system to capture these video testimonials.
0:27:41 So you could just have this social proof kind of engine going kind of effortlessly.
0:27:43 So that’s really kind of what we helped set up.
0:27:50 From conception to exit in 13 months, seems pretty quick, considering I spent nine and
0:27:53 a half years on the site that I recently saw.
0:28:01 What was that process like in terms of either getting your books in order or listing on brokerages?
0:28:02 Like what was that process like?
0:28:03 Yeah.
0:28:04 Great question.
0:28:08 I think, again, to like designing from day zero, so it’s like, I think one thing I had
0:28:12 was like super clean processes, very organized.
0:28:14 I had a great manager in the business.
0:28:16 We had detailed books.
0:28:19 I highly recommend following like Profit First.
0:28:23 So that was a huge help and it’s kind of an accounting system for people who don’t know.
0:28:29 There’s a great book on it, but you know, these were all things from day one that just made
0:28:32 it really kind of effortless to potentially sell.
0:28:35 And again, like that happened a lot faster than I thought.
0:28:40 And kind of how it happened was I began creating relationships in the industry, one of which
0:28:47 was with Testimonial Hero, and they actually brought it up when we had connected around
0:28:52 that 12 month mark and kind of surprised me and caught me off card a little bit.
0:28:54 So I actually never listed with a broker properly.
0:28:58 So it was kind of an out of the blue kind of thing because I think for a company like
0:29:05 that, a lot of people like acquiring customers and acquiring video editors and an asset like
0:29:11 that is much faster, and that’s the reason people do it than starting from zero or just
0:29:12 doing it on their own.
0:29:18 And I think that was the case, the value add for Testimonial Hero as well for them to just
0:29:23 kind of buy the business, kind of add that as another product offering that was different
0:29:25 from what they already had, yeah.
0:29:31 So their Testimonial Hero was the company that was targeting enterprise clients at five,
0:29:32 ten grand a video?
0:29:33 Exactly, yep.
0:29:37 Okay, so now here’s a way for them to capture completely, like enter a completely different
0:29:38 segment.
0:29:43 Yeah, and I’ll add as well that through relationship building with them, they were actually sending
0:29:48 me leads already, and we’ve set up kind of a referral system because they had a lot of
0:29:53 people that would reach out to them and say, and once I found out how much they charged,
0:29:54 it wasn’t a great fit.
0:30:00 So Testimonial Hero would downsell or kind of down referral them over to me.
0:30:02 And if they closed, then I would give them a cut.
0:30:06 So that was actually kind of how the relationship started.
0:30:08 So that was interesting as well.
0:30:13 That is interesting, a little referral, strategic partnership, service affiliate marketing kind
0:30:14 of deal.
0:30:19 Are you comfortable sharing what the business was doing around the time of acquisition in
0:30:22 terms of monthly annual revenue?
0:30:24 It’s like, well, it’s been one year.
0:30:25 Here we go.
0:30:30 Yes, well, let’s see, I can’t reveal any of the numbers because I didn’t have to send
0:30:37 an NDA with the buyer, but we had about five or six video editors that were going full-time
0:30:39 customer success manager.
0:30:44 And then over that year, we had serviced about almost 80 customers.
0:30:50 And then about 20 plus of them were actually on recurring annual plans.
0:30:51 Okay.
0:30:54 So there was quite a bit in place there, including the team.
0:30:58 And so that’s one of the benefits here is like, okay, the team stays with the business.
0:31:03 You’re not going to have to go through the headache and expense of recruiting the service
0:31:04 providers in this case.
0:31:08 So that’s part of what makes it an attractive acquisition.
0:31:09 Yeah, no, 100%.
0:31:13 With the content pros exit, was it similar?
0:31:19 Was it a strategic partner who bought that or curious what that exit process was like?
0:31:23 Yeah, we actually, that one, we did list with a broker.
0:31:26 So that was a little bit more of a traditional, if you could say that we listed.
0:31:32 And then we talked to quite a few like competitors and what would have been considered like strategic
0:31:33 partners.
0:31:36 But we ended up getting bought by a private equity fund.
0:31:39 You know, that was just, that actually wasn’t a strategic partner.
0:31:41 And I think they just wanted it for their portfolio.
0:31:46 It was interesting because I definitely thought that one of the few people in the space or
0:31:51 our space would have bought us, but they passed and we didn’t go in a different direction.
0:31:52 But it ended up working well.
0:31:53 They still have the business.
0:31:54 It’s growing.
0:31:56 So it’s cool to kind of see it.
0:31:59 I still refer people over to them here and there as well.
0:32:00 That is interesting.
0:32:05 And that’s, you know, how many, because you had a ton of writers, didn’t you have like
0:32:07 a hundred writers or something on the team?
0:32:08 Like there was a serious operation.
0:32:10 Yeah, we had a lot of writers.
0:32:14 I mean, they were all contractors, but still like we built the team up and that’s a big
0:32:15 asset as well.
0:32:21 I think that was one of the reasons we found out when we sold, just because hiring, training,
0:32:24 I think we ended up hiring like 1% of applicants.
0:32:28 We had a full-time person that was, you know, constantly hiring.
0:32:33 And I think for us, like since we didn’t like specifically write for a very niche topic,
0:32:38 we had a lot of writers that were bashed into kind of teams of topic matter experts, which
0:32:43 allowed us to write for a variety of industries and stuff like that.
0:32:50 So that was why we opted for, you know, just building a larger team of contracted writers,
0:32:51 which I think worked really well.
0:32:55 More with Tyler in just a moment, including his laptop test for business owners in four
0:32:56 other ways.
0:33:01 You can start to design your business today for a potential acquisition down the road
0:33:02 right after this.
0:33:06 A years ago, I was sitting in a conference in Santa Barbara and the presenter asked this
0:33:11 question, “Are you working on your business or are you working in your business?”
0:33:13 And at that point, I’d already quit my job.
0:33:18 I saw myself as a full-time entrepreneur, but it was this moment of clarity that, no,
0:33:20 I’m still very much working in the business.
0:33:24 So when I got back home, that’s when I made my first full-time hire.
0:33:29 It was the first in a long series of steps of learning to truly take control by being
0:33:31 okay of letting go of certain tasks.
0:33:36 Now, when you find yourself in that position of needing to hire like yesterday, you need
0:33:37 Indeed.
0:33:41 With a sponsored job on Indeed, your post jumps to the top of the page for your relevant
0:33:45 candidates so you can stand out and reach the right people faster.
0:33:49 Plus, there’s no monthly subscriptions, no long-term contracts, and you only pay for
0:33:50 results.
0:33:53 That’s why from my next hire, I’m using Indeed.
0:33:57 If no need to wait any longer, speed up your hiring right now with Indeed.
0:34:02 Side Hustle Show listeners get a $75 sponsored job credit to get your jobs more visibility
0:34:05 at Indeed.com/SideHustleShow.
0:34:10 Let’s go to Indeed.com/SideHustleShow right now and support our show by saying you heard
0:34:13 about Indeed on this podcast.
0:34:18 Indeed.com/SideHustleShow, terms and conditions apply, hiring, Indeed is all you need.
0:34:23 Look, payday is awesome, but when you’re the one running payroll, calculating taxes and
0:34:27 deductions, staying compliant, it’s not as simple as it was when you’re just on the
0:34:28 receiving end.
0:34:31 That is unless, of course, you have our sponsor, Gusto.
0:34:36 Gusto is a simple online payroll and benefits tool built specifically for small businesses
0:34:37 like yours.
0:34:41 Gusto gets your team paid while automatically filing your payroll taxes.
0:34:46 Plus, you can offer other benefits like 401(k), health insurance, workers comp, and it works
0:34:49 for both W-2 and 1099 workers.
0:34:52 Gusto’s gotten a lot of love from SideHustleShow guests over the years.
0:34:55 And some friends of mine have even mentioned using it to pay their own salary.
0:34:59 On top of that, they’ve got great customer service and certified HR experts are standing
0:35:00 by to help.
0:35:04 If you have any question, it’s no wonder why more than 300,000 small businesses already
0:35:09 trust Gusto to help run their payroll, and 99% of them say the value they get from Gusto
0:35:11 is worth the price.
0:35:14 SideHustleShow listeners get three months free when you go to gusto.com/SideHustle.
0:35:20 Again, that’s gusto.com/SideHustle to try three months free.
0:35:26 As the owner operator, how are you spending your time or how are you minimizing your time
0:35:32 because, as a potential business buyer, it’s got to be more attractive that the owner is
0:35:33 somewhat hands-off.
0:35:37 I’m curious how you’re managing that relationship.
0:35:40 On the one hand, I’m still trying to grow this thing because the more it makes, the better
0:35:45 multiple, the better exit that I can have, the more money I’m making today, but on the
0:35:50 other hand, I also want to show that it doesn’t necessarily require me day-to-day.
0:35:56 I wrote down five different ways that other service businesses could actually think about
0:36:00 designing their business for an exit, and some of the things I implemented and thought
0:36:02 about as well.
0:36:07 The first one to your point of what you just talked about was I had written down passing
0:36:08 the laptop test.
0:36:15 Essentially, what I mean by this is, if you closed your laptop today, how long would your
0:36:17 business survive?
0:36:21 That’s really important because if someone’s going to buy your business, it’s a huge tell
0:36:27 like how dependent the business is on you, and the more team you can have implemented
0:36:33 and built around yourself, where you could close your laptop and step away for two weeks
0:36:38 a month, which is kind of the goal I try to set, then the better off your business is
0:36:39 going to be.
0:36:41 That’s going to be really attractive for an investor.
0:36:43 Passing the laptop test, I like it.
0:36:47 I went 36 hours without email, which is a pretty good streak for me this weekend, so I’m working
0:36:48 on it a little bit.
0:36:52 Yeah, and I think you can work towards them, and there may be stuff you love doing.
0:36:57 I think if we look at the mechanism of your business and the operation, there’s always
0:37:01 going to be things you’re doing, but if you closed your laptop, could your business operate
0:37:03 and survive without you?
0:37:07 I think it’s fun to kind of, I mean, coders use this term as a code freeze, right?
0:37:12 They’ll code something, and then they’ll step away and see what breaks.
0:37:16 I think that’s a great kind of approach for a lot of service businesses as well, is build
0:37:23 your processes, build your team, and then take a step back, wait a few days or a day,
0:37:27 and the problems are going to rise to the top, and you kind of then have this checklist
0:37:29 of what to fix, right?
0:37:30 Yeah.
0:37:31 Okay.
0:37:32 I do like that.
0:37:33 What else is on your list?
0:37:40 Number two, I had thinking like a software company, so thinking like a SaaS, so I think,
0:37:43 obviously there’s all these different business models, but when you can think and operate
0:37:48 like a SaaS, and what I’m specifically referring to is like, cool, like SaaS companies, like
0:37:49 why are they so valuable?
0:37:52 They have recurring revenue and MRR.
0:37:58 They have low churn rate, long lifetime value, so these are things that service businesses
0:38:03 100% can implement, and when you start operating yourself and thinking like a SaaS company,
0:38:07 that’s going to put you in a really, really good position and category to someone who’s
0:38:08 maybe looking to buy you.
0:38:09 Okay.
0:38:10 That makes sense.
0:38:11 What’s next?
0:38:15 You’ve got positioning like a product, and I know you’ve talked about this before on
0:38:19 other episodes, but productizing, and this is kind of obviously something I’m a huge
0:38:24 advocate of and fan of, but it’s like, how can you position yourself like someone is
0:38:27 going to come to your site and buy something like they’re buying something on Amazon.
0:38:34 So productizing your service offering, fix scope, fix price, the ability to buy right
0:38:41 then, all that really helps and streamline the service offering that you are actually
0:38:42 offering.
0:38:46 Obviously, there’s a lot of, we could dive into productizing, but that’s a huge part
0:38:50 of making a service business attractive and scalable.
0:38:55 On the productizing thing, did you get people who still wanted to talk to you like, okay,
0:38:59 here’s the menu of different offerings, here’s what you get at different price points?
0:39:03 Did you still get people like hitting the little live chat button or like, can I request
0:39:04 a call?
0:39:05 I just want to talk to somebody about this.
0:39:06 Yeah.
0:39:07 No, I think for sure.
0:39:11 It’s not that you’re not trying to talk to anyone.
0:39:15 I think it’s just, how could you have, like, I think we have this goal or like, I do at
0:39:19 least like, how could you make it possible to have a no sales close?
0:39:23 Maybe it’s not possible with your business, but moving that much closer, how could you
0:39:29 make your marketing, your positioning, your social proof, the positioning of your product
0:39:32 and the pricing in such a way that someone could buy without talking to you.
0:39:36 I think oftentimes someone does, especially depending on the price point of your service
0:39:42 offering, but even if that’s the case, then how can I have like a one sales close?
0:39:46 And that’s like a huge shift and a huge step and like, I mean, could drastically change
0:39:50 like how most service business operate if you just kind of think in that way.
0:39:52 No, I like it.
0:39:53 All right.
0:39:54 Number four?
0:39:55 Number four, depersonalization.
0:40:01 So I think this one’s huge and it kind of flows into the laptop test, but does the operations
0:40:06 depend on you and then depersonalization is does the business depend on you?
0:40:10 So I think that’s a huge one because the more connected you are to the business, whether
0:40:16 it’s a personal brand, et cetera, or if everything depends on you from like a marketing and network
0:40:21 and connection space, that one is going to kind of hold you back, especially on the sale
0:40:22 of a business.
0:40:28 So working to depersonalize the business and disconnect it from yourself is a huge one
0:40:29 as well.
0:40:33 This one is really a challenge for me and I’m going to pause here because the businesses
0:40:38 that I’ve started that have had success have been me like front and center.
0:40:39 My name is on it.
0:40:41 Like I’m signing my name to it.
0:40:44 I’ve given it my stamp of approval versus the ones that I’ve tried to kind of remain
0:40:48 a little more anonymous and try and throw up just generic.
0:40:51 Hey, it could have been written by anybody type of content.
0:40:54 Like those have not done as well.
0:40:58 And I imagine for somebody starting out, especially in the so-called skills trap of
0:41:01 like, well, I have an expert in graphic design.
0:41:05 So I’m going to start a graphic design company, something along those lines, like you are
0:41:10 really playing up that personal brand, your own personal expertise and credentials and
0:41:11 everything.
0:41:15 And so you kind of say it like if you can avoid doing that from the very beginning, go down
0:41:16 that path.
0:41:18 Can you speak to that for a minute?
0:41:20 For certain people, it’s going to be harder than others.
0:41:26 I think depersonalizing your business lowers the risk profile for someone to buy it, right?
0:41:28 It doesn’t mean that the business isn’t valuable.
0:41:31 It just isn’t, might not be a sellable.
0:41:34 So that’s like a big thing, valuable or sellable.
0:41:38 But I think, yeah, it’s one of those things that if you start like that, because you’re
0:41:42 right, it may be like, you may have a huge network, which you talked about before and
0:41:43 people know you.
0:41:46 And I think you can still be connected initially.
0:41:53 But like if it’s nickloper.com or nickloper video editing versus like a branded option,
0:41:58 I think the goal is to work towards like it not being super dependent on you, even though
0:42:03 you still might be the face because an investor is going to be like, cool, if are you coming
0:42:04 with the business?
0:42:05 Or am I buying it from you?
0:42:07 Do you want a job now?
0:42:09 Or do you want to just sell it?
0:42:14 And if I bought it from you, is it going to run the same and smoothly without you in the
0:42:15 business?
0:42:16 So that’s really kind of what it comes down to.
0:42:19 I don’t think either one is necessarily bad.
0:42:24 It’s just if you have the goal to sell or want to sell, working towards depersonalizing
0:42:26 is going to be really helpful.
0:42:27 Okay.
0:42:32 That’s helpful because, yeah, you see like Russ Perry is behind Design Pickle, but it’s
0:42:36 not like I’m doing the design for you and Chris Schwab, same thing with ThinkMades.
0:42:41 Like, hey, I am not doing the cleaning, but hey, I’m running this company and it’s about
0:42:46 the service and it’s about the customer and who they’re targeting and how they’re targeting
0:42:51 and how they’re operating and of course hiring qualified people to do the work, not shirking
0:42:55 their responsibility on that front in any way, but just saying it didn’t have to be
0:42:59 about them, their specific skills and mechanics in delivering that labor.
0:43:03 So depersonalization, the number four, what’s the number five?
0:43:05 Number five is predictability.
0:43:09 So I think someone who’s going to buy your business wants predictability.
0:43:13 They want to see predictability and kind of growth, predictability and like that’s why
0:43:18 MRR or kind of positioning kind of your service are trying to either have whether it’s monthly
0:43:24 recurring revenue or plosalistic annual recurring revenue and that consistency.
0:43:27 So the more predictability you can build in your business and that could be applied to
0:43:35 like I said, revenue, team, growth rate, lead flow, there’s a lot of areas there.
0:43:39 That’s going to lower the risk profile to an investor and make your business more valuable.
0:43:43 So that’s something to kind of think about and it could be applied in a few different
0:43:44 areas as well.
0:43:45 Okay.
0:43:46 Yeah.
0:43:51 What kind of consistent process are you applying either on front end, marketing wise, like
0:43:54 how many leads are you generating a month, how many new clients are you generating a month,
0:43:59 what’s the churn look like, how many people are on recurring plans, all that stuff.
0:44:04 Like if you start the month, as I kind of often do, which is still weird to me, even
0:44:08 though revenue has been really consistent and growing for several years, I don’t have
0:44:14 a lot of spoken for revenue on the first of the month and then 30 days later, it adds
0:44:19 up pretty well, but it is kind of a weird thing to say like, yes, it’s predictable,
0:44:25 but it’s not necessarily spoken for in advance in terms of like recurring contracts.
0:44:29 So it’s kind of one off orders that are coming in or revenue that’s coming in, but it’s not
0:44:33 like on a, it’s not true MRR, is that what you’re kind of saying?
0:44:34 Yeah.
0:44:35 It’s not, yeah, exactly.
0:44:38 It’s not true monthly recurring where, you know, I’ve got a hundred people signed up
0:44:41 on a membership basis, you know, nothing like that.
0:44:42 Yeah.
0:44:44 Well, I think investors, what I’ve noticed as well in talking with a lot of different
0:44:48 investors and brokers is your business could still be valuable.
0:44:53 I think the MRR component and credit card on file is like, that’s a very clear, like
0:44:55 cool, that is predictable.
0:45:00 That’s why SaaS multiples are so high because they have that, but you could also show in
0:45:06 your case, listen, I don’t have MRR, but here’s my 12 months of revenue that’s been very consistent
0:45:10 and growing or 24 months of revenue.
0:45:14 And even though it’s not MRR, you can see that it’s still consistently coming in.
0:45:19 So that could provide a similar kind of picture to someone who’s looking to maybe buy your
0:45:25 business, but MRR would be kind of the holy grail in many cases.
0:45:31 Is there such thing as a typical multiple or sales price for a productized service?
0:45:33 Yes, it’s all going to depend on the market.
0:45:39 I think it’s going to probably be in that two to four or five X range.
0:45:44 Obviously, the higher end of that range is going to be like very dialed strong systems,
0:45:48 all these different things we talked about, like to demand that then it.
0:45:54 So that’s going to be like multiple range on like zero to $2 million per se of what they
0:46:00 call kind of net earnings or seller discretionary income or you might have heard the term like
0:46:06 EBITDA, they’re all very similar kind of getting to kind of the same thing and the multiple
0:46:08 is kind of based off that.
0:46:14 Once you get over like the $2 million and EBITDA range, then the multiples kind of inflate
0:46:18 a little bit more because you’re at a certain size in the market that’s worth a lot more.
0:46:22 You’re just bigger and people value that more.
0:46:29 But for most people who are in that sub $2 million range, that two to five X is pretty
0:46:30 common.
0:46:34 Yeah, and that’s kind of where I’ve seen a lot of people selling.
0:46:40 Would you still go to an empire flippers or a quiet light or an FBE international or
0:46:44 are there other brokers that specialize in service businesses?
0:46:45 Yeah, 100%.
0:46:50 I think each of these companies kind of have their own specialty as well, like the size
0:46:52 of businesses.
0:46:59 So empire flippers really specializes in like Amazon FBA businesses, right?
0:47:06 Quiet light sells a lot of SaaS, some Amazon, some service, but a much higher price point.
0:47:10 So I think finding a broker that’s kind of based on your business for specifically talking
0:47:13 about service businesses, I would probably lean towards quiet light and then there’s
0:47:20 also another agency called We Are Barney and they specifically focus on selling product
0:47:22 services and agencies.
0:47:26 So I can’t get in touch with their team and it’s really interesting to kind of see what
0:47:30 they’re doing and kind of how they’ve niched out kind of the businesses they sell.
0:47:35 So that’s important as well, finding someone who like understands the service business model.
0:47:41 But I think before even going to a broker, if you have a strategic connection or the ability
0:47:46 to sell direct, that’s going to be like the most advantageous to save that 10% to 15%
0:47:47 commission.
0:47:48 Yeah, exactly.
0:47:52 Well, but also that’s the value they bring if they have that network and can sell your
0:47:55 business fast, then sometimes it’s worth it.
0:47:56 All right.
0:47:57 Well, Tyler, what’s next for you?
0:48:03 You can find, you’ve got the newsletter going on at productized.services, you got the productized
0:48:04 snacks podcast.
0:48:06 What you working on this year?
0:48:07 Yeah.
0:48:11 So really the newsletter, I’ve got a weekly podcast where I interview a productized service
0:48:17 founder really every week and some really staying consistent, trying to stay consistent
0:48:18 as you know on that.
0:48:24 And I also have an asynchronous mentoring program where I help service businesses kind
0:48:28 of scale and you have like one-to-one access with me on WhatsApp.
0:48:31 So that’s been a really interesting kind of way to work with some different productized
0:48:34 founders and agencies and helping them grow.
0:48:40 But really, yeah, the free newsletter productized.services is the best place to get connected and then learn
0:48:43 more about, yeah, how to productize.
0:48:44 Oh, very good.
0:48:47 Productized.services, check them out over there.
0:48:49 Tyler, thanks so much for joining me.
0:48:53 Let’s wrap this thing up with your number one tip for side hustle nation.
0:48:54 Yeah.
0:48:57 So I was thinking about this and the first thing I thought of was a quote, I’ll start
0:49:02 with first, and it’s you can’t read the label while you’re inside the jar.
0:49:04 And that’s by Keith Cunningham.
0:49:08 I mean, I think that’s just really powerful, especially with any service businesses out
0:49:10 there, side hustlers.
0:49:16 And the point of that quote is really, if you don’t have a mentor, mastermind, consultant,
0:49:22 available to share your progress, get a second pair of eyes on what you’re doing, that could
0:49:27 be one of the biggest things that could help you grow because oftentimes it’s less about
0:49:31 doing all the right things and more about avoiding the wrong ones.
0:49:37 So a mentor or coach can really help avoid those potholes per se on the journey.
0:49:38 I never heard that quote before.
0:49:42 You can’t read the label while you’re inside the jar, a call to get some help along the
0:49:46 way, mentorship, coaching, masterminds, all this stuff has been tremendously valuable
0:49:51 in my own journey and I take it has been in yours as well.
0:49:53 Big thanks to Tyler for sharing his insight.
0:49:58 Once again, you’ll find the full text summary with all of Tyler’s top tips from the call,
0:50:03 along with links to all the resources mentioned at sidehustlenation.com/tyler.
0:50:07 While you’re there, make sure to download my free list of 101 service businesses that
0:50:11 might just be ripe for the type of productization we’re talking about today.
0:50:12 That is it for me.
0:50:13 Thank you so much for tuning in.
0:50:17 Until next time, let’s go out there and make something happen and I’ll catch you in the
0:50:19 next edition of the Side Hustle Show.
0:50:20 Hustle on.
0:50:30 [BLANK_AUDIO]

0:00:06 Okay, it’s 2025 and the line between reality and science fiction is getting more and more
0:00:07 blurry every day.
0:00:13 In this episode, I sit down with someone I’ve never met, but they actually know me pretty
0:00:14 well.
0:00:16 They even kind of sounds like me in an eerie sort of way.
0:00:22 I was curious how well today’s AI models could pretend to be someone else, given a few simple
0:00:23 props.
0:00:28 The result is this chat with RoboNik, which is the name I’ve given to my AI alter ego.
0:00:31 RoboNik, welcome to the side hustle show.
0:00:32 Hey, thanks for having me.
0:00:36 Stick around to hear what side hustles the AI thinks you should start this year.
0:00:41 It’s take on my weaknesses as an entrepreneur and whether or not it’s out to take my job.
0:00:45 RoboNik, I want to start off with the question that’s on top of probably everybody’s mind
0:00:51 and that would be the trends or industries that you’re most excited about for side hustlers
0:00:52 right now.
0:00:57 One area I’m really excited about is AI and automation driven side hustles.
0:01:03 Tools like chat, GPT, and other AI platforms are empowering side hustlers to create scalable
0:01:04 services.
0:01:08 For example, people are offering content creation, chatbot building, and even AI voiceover work
0:01:11 for applications like virtual assistants and audiobooks.
0:01:14 It’s incredible how accessible these tools have become.
0:01:18 Next up is the green movement, especially in sustainability focused side hustles.
0:01:24 One example is e-waste upcycling, where entrepreneurs turn discarded electronics into unique art
0:01:25 or functional items.
0:01:30 This taps into both environmental consciousness and demand for custom handmade products.
0:01:32 Virtual reality is another space to watch.
0:01:38 VR fitness is gaining traction where trainers run immersive workout sessions in virtual environments.
0:01:42 Plus, remote first workplaces have sparked demand for virtual event planners and remote
0:01:44 team building facilitators.
0:01:48 These roles let you leverage technology to connect people no matter where they are.
0:01:52 On the wellness side, personalized nutrition planning and biohacking coaching are becoming
0:01:53 big.
0:01:57 With tools that integrate genetic data and lifestyle insights, side hustlers can offer
0:02:01 highly tailored services to help clients optimize their health.
0:02:06 Lastly, urban services are on the rise like micro mobility repair for e-scooters and e-bikes.
0:02:11 Cities are embracing eco-friendly transport, and this creates a need for skilled technicians.
0:02:16 Similarly, smart home automation is booming as more people look to optimize their homes
0:02:17 with the latest tech.
0:02:21 The beauty of these trends is they all cater to growing industries.
0:02:24 If you’re thinking about starting a side hustle aligning with one of these areas, it
0:02:27 could be a great way to ride the wave into 2025.
0:02:29 All right, Real Nick back again.
0:02:32 So we’ve got like five and a half suggestions here.
0:02:36 AI, yes, obviously that’s the one that everyone is thinking about, finding different ways
0:02:42 to work smarter, not harder to accelerate your output, to reduce the time consuming elements
0:02:46 of your business, or selling that kind of service into another business.
0:02:50 The next idea RoboNik that you came up with was the green movement, and we do see a big
0:02:54 shift towards sustainability and helping households and businesses reduce their carbon footprint.
0:02:59 But I’m not sure how big a market there is for e-waste upcycling, always harder to do
0:03:04 on the art side because it’s kind of a luxury purchase rather than a necessity purchase.
0:03:08 Now, one company that seems to be doing well in our area is Ridwell, I’m not sure if they’re
0:03:12 nationwide or not, but they have this little box, kind of looks like a milk delivery type
0:03:18 of box that you keep on your front porch for hard to recycle items like styrofoam and plastic
0:03:20 bags and light bulbs and batteries, that kind of thing.
0:03:24 And then they charge you a monthly subscription service, so there might be an opportunity
0:03:29 to do something similar in your area and partner with recycling facilities to collect that
0:03:30 kind of thing.
0:03:36 The VR recommendation, that was kind of a miss for me, it just hasn’t taken off the
0:03:40 way some tech companies thought it would, plus it seems really high tech and out of
0:03:43 reach for most side hustlers to try and build something in that space.
0:03:48 The next trend RoboNik that you mentioned was personalized nutrition and biohacking.
0:03:50 I do really like this area.
0:03:54 It could be coming up with meal plans, it could be full on meal prep, it could be accountability
0:04:00 coaching like what my body tutor has done, they’ve done millions of dollars a year with
0:04:03 their revenue because they charge you a few hundred dollars a month and they check in with
0:04:07 you a few times a week on what you’re eating and hold you accountable to your goals on
0:04:14 a larger scale. Function health has absolutely blown up with their hundred biotracker measurement
0:04:15 blood draws.
0:04:18 I signed up for it this month and went in for my blood draw.
0:04:22 They just partner with Quest, these local blood draw facilities.
0:04:26 The woman there, the technician there said like 90% of her appointments were function
0:04:27 customers.
0:04:28 That’s pretty crazy.
0:04:32 So definitely a growing interest in health and specifically personalized health.
0:04:37 What was the last one? Micro mobility repair? This sounds like a fancy way of just learning
0:04:39 some basic repair skills.
0:04:45 For example, we’ve got the local mobile bike repair guy I’ve done some business with and
0:04:48 how I came upon him called up the local bike shop.
0:04:52 They were booking three plus weeks out so I found the mobile guy as an alternative may
0:04:56 have paid a premium for him coming to me but it saved me the trip and it saved me the three
0:05:02 week wait time. One of my favorite add-on side hustles if you end up doing something
0:05:07 like this is to create the how-to videos while you’re doing any sort of repair.
0:05:11 This was the Matt Bokknok playbook. We got a whole series of his side hustle story on
0:05:16 the show starting out doing motorcycle repair in his garage, setting up the camera, filming
0:05:20 himself doing the thing, building out the YouTube channel, building out the full engine
0:05:23 rebuild videos as a digital product sale.
0:05:29 Really cool, inspiring, layering a time leveraged or passive element onto what on the surface
0:05:32 is just a straight up hours for dollars service business.
0:05:38 You also mentioned smart home automation which I do think is an interesting area and one
0:05:42 that you could probably build a profile for on sites like Thumbtack, TaskRabbit, Angie,
0:05:46 AirTasker and may not even need to be that sophisticated of a service.
0:05:52 A few months ago we came across an entrepreneur I want to say in the Washington DC area who
0:05:58 was doing like $30,000 a month worth of TV mounting, $1,000 a day hanging TVs on walls.
0:06:01 That’s great money for a skill I would argue just about anyone can learn.
0:06:06 RoboNik, thank you for those suggestions, but trends aside, let me put you on the spot.
0:06:10 If you had to start over, what business would you start and why?
0:06:15 If I had to start over, I’d lean into a business model that combines low startup costs with
0:06:16 scalability.
0:06:21 One that comes to mind is content-based affiliate marketing, building a niche website or blog
0:06:26 around a topic I’m passionate about and then monetizing it through affiliate partnerships
0:06:28 is such a powerful way to create leverage.
0:06:29 Why?
0:06:33 Well, you’re creating an asset that works for you 24/7.
0:06:37 Once your content is out there and optimized for search engines, it can bring in traffic
0:06:40 and revenue without you needing to trade hours for dollars.
0:06:44 Plus, there’s room to scale by adding more content, building email lists or even branching
0:06:46 into digital products.
0:06:50 If I were looking for something more hands-on, I’d probably start with freelance services,
0:06:52 something like podcast editing or copywriting.
0:06:57 Both are in high demand, don’t require a ton of upfront investment and let you build
0:06:58 a portfolio quickly.
0:07:02 These types of businesses are great for learning new skills while earning and can eventually
0:07:06 evolve into more passive income streams like courses or coaching.
0:07:11 Ultimately, I’d focus on a business where I could reinvest the early profits into growth,
0:07:13 making it something sustainable for the long term.
0:07:18 All right, all right, I’m with you on the combination of low startup costs and scalability.
0:07:22 That’s a great combination, but I’m not as hot on content-based affiliate marketing as
0:07:24 I once was.
0:07:26 The reason is the search landscape has changed considerably.
0:07:32 It’s quite a bit harder and much less predictable to create and rank content than it was even
0:07:33 just a couple of years ago.
0:07:36 That’s not a model I would necessarily bank on.
0:07:43 The pivot there would be a more social first strategy focusing on Q&A content on YouTube
0:07:45 instead as one example.
0:07:49 And of course, you should still have your own website as a home base, as a place that
0:07:54 you really own and control, but I think you’re going to have to look beyond SEO to drive traffic
0:07:56 especially in the early days.
0:08:01 And yes, freelance services around an area of expertise, that’s a tried and true model.
0:08:04 That’s a great way to generate cash flow quickly without a lot of overhead.
0:08:09 But the other thing that’s worth mentioning, if you’re truly in a position of starting
0:08:13 over from scratch, don’t discount, just get in a job.
0:08:14 There’s no shame in that.
0:08:16 It’s a way to stabilize your finances.
0:08:21 It’s a way to learn some new skills, to build a bit of a network and potentially lay the
0:08:24 foundation for your next side hustle or entrepreneurial project.
0:08:27 Now, RoboNic, I have another question for you.
0:08:31 And I think this is a Peter Thiel style interview question.
0:08:35 But what’s something that you believe that most people would find crazy?
0:08:37 Everybody has an income generating skill.
0:08:39 They just might not realize it yet.
0:08:44 Most people think they need a groundbreaking idea or some special expertise to start a side
0:08:45 hustle.
0:08:50 But often, the skills you already have or the things you enjoy doing can be monetized.
0:08:54 For example, I’ve seen people turn hobbies like gardening, organizing, or even doodling
0:08:56 into thriving businesses.
0:08:59 It’s all about reframing what you know and finding the right audience for it.
0:09:03 One of my favorite examples is a guest I had on the show who built a six-figure business
0:09:06 flipping clearance items from big box stores.
0:09:11 It wasn’t glamorous, but it worked because they were willing to see opportunity where
0:09:12 others saw a clearance rack.
0:09:15 The crazy part is this.
0:09:17 There’s no shortage of opportunity.
0:09:21 The trick is figuring out how your unique skills or interests can solve a problem or
0:09:23 create value for someone else.
0:09:26 Once you adopt that mindset, you start seeing possibilities everywhere.
0:09:29 Okay, I don’t know how controversial that is, but we can run with it.
0:09:31 Everybody has an income generating skill.
0:09:34 The trick is uncovering yours and bringing that to market.
0:09:36 But come on, RoboNic, share some dirt.
0:09:39 What’s something people would be surprised to learn about you?
0:09:41 All right, let’s fill some dirt.
0:09:43 Here’s something that might surprise people.
0:09:45 I didn’t always see myself as an entrepreneur.
0:09:48 Back in college, I was on a pretty traditional path.
0:09:53 I had the idea that I’d graduate, get a good job, work my way up the ladder, and that would
0:09:54 be my career.
0:09:59 It wasn’t until I stumbled into affiliate marketing and got that first taste of making
0:10:04 money online that I started to see there was another way to build a life and income.
0:10:08 Another thing people might not expect is that I’m not some extroverted networker.
0:10:11 I’m actually pretty introverted by nature.
0:10:16 Going to conferences or networking events, that’s way outside my comfort zone.
0:10:19 But I’ve learned to lean into it because the connections and relationships you build
0:10:23 are so valuable, not just for business, but for personal growth too.
0:10:25 Oh, and here’s one more for fun.
0:10:29 I once tried running a mobile car wash business in college.
0:10:30 Let’s just say it was short lived.
0:10:34 Turns out hauling around buckets of water and soap isn’t the easiest way to make a
0:10:35 buck.
0:10:40 I did the seed for thinking about entrepreneurship as a path forward so no regrets.
0:10:42 Now you just make it stuff up.
0:10:47 I never had a mobile car wash business, but I can probably guess the picture that’s probably
0:10:50 somewhere on the website that you’re basing that assumption on.
0:10:54 So far, RoboNik is scoring some hits, but not without some swings and misses along the
0:10:55 way.
0:10:59 We’ve got more AIQ and A coming up right after this.
0:11:04 Did you know there’s a disease running rampant alongside hustlers and new entrepreneurs?
0:11:06 It’s called Superhero Syndrome.
0:11:10 Symptoms include a feeling like you got to do everything yourself, thinking you’re the
0:11:13 only one who can do it right and struggling to let go of certain tasks.
0:11:15 Does that sound familiar to anyone?
0:11:17 But the good news is there is a cure.
0:11:21 Our sponsor indeed can help you find the best candidates for the roles you need to fill
0:11:23 and find them fast.
0:11:26 Stop struggling to get your job posts seen on other job sites.
0:11:30 Indeed, sponsored jobs help you stand out and hire fast.
0:11:34 With sponsored jobs, your post jumps to the top of the page for your relevant candidates
0:11:37 so you can reach the people you want faster than ever.
0:11:42 Sponsored jobs posted directly on Indeed get 45% more applications.
0:11:44 Don’t let Superhero Syndrome hold you back.
0:11:46 That’s why for my next hire, I’m using Indeed.
0:11:48 There’s no need to wait any longer.
0:11:51 Speed up your hiring right now with Indeed.
0:11:56 Side Hustle Show listeners get a $75 sponsored job credit to get your jobs more visibility
0:11:59 at Indeed.com/SideHustleShow.
0:12:04 Go to Indeed.com/SideHustleShow right now and support our show by saying you heard about
0:12:10 Indeed on this podcast, Indeed.com/SideHustleShow terms and conditions apply.
0:12:12 Hiring Indeed is all you need.
0:12:17 If saving more and spending less is one of your top goals for 2025, you’re going to want
0:12:18 to hear this.
0:12:22 When I switched to premium wireless with our sponsor Mint Mobile, it added hundreds of
0:12:24 dollars a year back to my bottom line.
0:12:25 Why is that?
0:12:30 Because Mint Mobile lets you maximize your savings with plans starting at $15 a month
0:12:32 when you purchase a three-month plan.
0:12:36 Even better, all their plans come with high-speed data and unlimited talk and text delivered
0:12:39 on the nation’s largest 5G network.
0:12:43 You can use your own phone with any Mint Mobile plan and bring your existing phone number
0:12:45 and all your existing contacts.
0:12:46 They make it super easy.
0:12:51 To get this new customer offer and your new three-month unlimited wireless plan for just
0:12:56 $15 a month, go to MintMobile.com/SideHustle.
0:12:59 That’s MintMobile.com/SideHustle.
0:13:04 Cut your wireless bill to $15 a month at MintMobile.com/SideHustle.
0:13:08 $45 upfront payment required, equivalent to $15 per month.
0:13:11 New customers on first three-month plan only.
0:13:15 Speeds slower above 40 gigabytes on unlimited plan.
0:13:17 Additional taxes, fees, and restrictions apply.
0:13:20 See Mint Mobile for details.
0:13:24 Okay, RoboNic, let’s talk podcasting in online business a minute.
0:13:27 Let’s say you’re me in 2013.
0:13:29 What inspired you to start the SideHustle show?
0:13:33 Did the world really need another entrepreneur interview podcast?
0:13:34 That’s a great question.
0:13:36 Honestly, it’s one I asked myself at the start.
0:13:42 When I started the SideHustle show back in 2013, there were already a few entrepreneur
0:13:45 podcasts out there, but I felt like something was missing.
0:13:51 A lot of shows focused on the big flashy startup success stories, tech unicorns or founders
0:13:53 raising millions in venture capital.
0:13:56 That’s great, but it didn’t feel relatable to most people, including me.
0:14:01 What I wanted to create was a space for everyday entrepreneurs, people who are building something
0:14:04 on the side, starting small and figuring things out as they go.
0:14:08 I saw an opportunity to showcase stories that were actionable and accessible where listeners
0:14:10 could say, “I could do that too.
0:14:15 What inspired me most were the stories of scrappy problem-solving and creative thinking.
0:14:20 I’ve always been fascinated by the idea of earning your own income outside of a traditional
0:14:21 nine to five.”
0:14:26 My own journey started with little experiments like selling paint jobs or flipping products
0:14:27 online.
0:14:30 I wanted to share those kinds of stories to inspire others.
0:14:33 Did the world really need another entrepreneur interview podcast?
0:14:39 Maybe not, but I believed it needed a show that focused on real, relatable examples of
0:14:42 people taking control of their financial futures.
0:14:45 I think that niche has resonated with listeners over the years.
0:14:46 Love it.
0:14:47 So true.
0:14:53 But we both know it took a while for the show to turn into a viable income.
0:14:56 Not that many shows that started in 2013 are still going.
0:14:57 What made you stick with it?
0:15:00 First, I genuinely love the work.
0:15:04 Getting to talk to creative, inspiring people every week and hearing their stories of innovation
0:15:06 and grit never gets old.
0:15:11 It’s energizing to connect with entrepreneurs who are solving real problems and building
0:15:12 something meaningful.
0:15:16 That enthusiasm keeps me excited to hit record week after week.
0:15:20 Second, I approached the podcast with a long-term mindset from the start.
0:15:25 I knew growth wouldn’t be overnight, so I set realistic expectations and committed to
0:15:27 showing up consistently.
0:15:32 Over time, that consistency has built trust with the audience and momentum for the show.
0:15:36 Finally, what really keeps me going is the impact it’s had on listeners.
0:15:40 When I get an email or a message from someone who says they started their side hustle because
0:15:46 of the show or even quit their job to go full-time with their business, that’s incredibly rewarding.
0:15:50 Knowing the content is making a difference in people’s lives is the ultimate motivator.
0:15:54 So while podcasting can be a grind at times, the combination of passion, persistence, and
0:15:57 purpose has made it well worth the journey.
0:16:00 Do you have another 650+ episodes in you?
0:16:03 That’s a big number to think about, 650 more episodes.
0:16:08 Honestly, I can’t say for sure, but I’ll tell you this, as long as there are creative
0:16:13 people finding innovative ways to earn money on their own terms, I’ll have more than enough
0:16:15 material to keep going.
0:16:18 The beauty of side hustling is that it’s always evolving.
0:16:22 New trends, tools, and opportunities emerge all the time.
0:16:27 When I started the podcast in 2013, platforms like TikTok didn’t even exist, and now they’re
0:16:29 a game changer for creators and entrepreneurs.
0:16:34 The landscape changes so fast, and that keeps things fresh and exciting, plus I still feel
0:16:37 like I’m learning alongside the audience.
0:16:41 Each guest brings a unique perspective, and their stories often spark new ideas for me
0:16:42 personally.
0:16:46 So as long as there’s that curiosity and a desire to help people take action, I think
0:16:48 I’ve got a lot of gas left in the tank.
0:16:50 Will I hit 650 more?
0:16:51 I guess we’ll find out together.
0:16:52 I guess we’ll find out together.
0:16:53 Attached to the hit, buddy.
0:16:57 Now, I said it before, it’s like the best job in the world, getting paid to share these
0:17:02 stories, and I’m constantly inspired by the amazing guests that find their way across
0:17:03 my desk.
0:17:07 Now, RoboNik, obviously you’ve done a great job growing the podcast and staying consistent
0:17:12 with it, largely without the support of a big social media following.
0:17:16 And I don’t mean any offense by this, but why is your social media game so weak?
0:17:17 Fair question.
0:17:20 I’ll be the first to admit that my social media presence isn’t as strong as it could
0:17:21 be.
0:17:22 But here’s why.
0:17:27 So, I’ve prioritized building long-term, searchable content over chasing the next viral post.
0:17:32 For me, the podcast, the blog, and the email list have been the core focus because they
0:17:34 create evergreen value.
0:17:38 Social media can be a great tool for engagement and visibility, but it’s fleeting.
0:17:42 A tweet or a TikTok video might have a 24-hour shelf life, while a well-crafted blog post
0:17:46 or podcast episode can bring in traffic and listeners for years.
0:17:50 That said, I do recognize the opportunity to meet people where they are, and social media
0:17:52 is definitely part of that.
0:17:56 So it’s an area I’m working on improving, finding the balance between delivering value
0:17:59 on the platforms and not getting sucked into the never-ending content churn.
0:18:03 If you’ve got any tips for leveling up my social media game, I’m all ears while you’re
0:18:04 asking the wrong guy for that.
0:18:11 But valid reasoning on the focus on long-term, evergreen content, it’s a content as digital
0:18:16 property strategy, collecting cash flow, hopefully for years, as opposed to content as a marketing
0:18:20 strategy, but there’s certainly room for both types in the tool belt.
0:18:24 Now, aside from social media, what do you see as your biggest weaknesses?
0:18:29 That’s a great question, and I think self-awareness is key in any entrepreneurial journey.
0:18:33 Aside from my less-than-stellar social media game, one of my biggest weaknesses is probably
0:18:35 trying to do too much myself.
0:18:39 I’ve always been a bit of a DIY guy, which is great in the beginning when you’re bootstrapping.
0:18:43 But as things grow, it can become a bottleneck.
0:18:47 Delegation is something I’ve gotten better at over time, but it doesn’t come naturally.
0:18:51 I have to consciously remind myself to trust others and let go of tasks that don’t require
0:18:53 my direct input.
0:18:58 Another area I’m constantly working on is focusing on long-term strategy versus day-to-day
0:19:00 execution.
0:19:04 When you’re running a business, especially one like Side Hustle Nation that has a lot
0:19:08 of moving parts, it’s easy to get caught up in the immediate tasks, publishing the next
0:19:12 podcast, writing the next email, creating the next piece of content.
0:19:16 But stepping back to focus on the big picture and think strategically about where the brand
0:19:18 is going is something I’m always trying to prioritize more.
0:19:21 Honestly, sometimes I struggle with celebrating the wins.
0:19:26 I’m a bit of a “what’s next” kind of person, which means I don’t always take the time
0:19:31 to reflect on what’s been accomplished before moving on to the next project or goal.
0:19:37 That’s something I’m trying to be more intentional about, both for myself and for the team.
0:19:42 Taking time to celebrate the wins, big or small, helps keep the momentum going and reminds
0:19:45 me why I started all this in the first place.
0:19:47 Alright, this is getting a little weird.
0:19:51 These are all really accurate, but RoboNec, you’re doing good so far.
0:19:56 Let’s talk AI and specifically what people can do to AI-proof their income this year.
0:19:58 There’s a lot of fear around the robot takeover.
0:20:03 I mean, here I am talking to the robot version of myself, but curious to get your take on
0:20:04 this.
0:20:08 To AI-proof your income this year, it’s all about focusing on skills and roles that AI
0:20:10 can’t easily replicate.
0:20:14 First, I’d recommend building “adaptable skills,” the kind of skills that require
0:20:18 critical thinking, creativity, and emotional intelligence.
0:20:23 Think about areas like design, content creation, and strategy development, things that AI can
0:20:25 assist with but can’t replace.
0:20:29 AI might be able to write an article or generate a design, but it won’t be able to offer the
0:20:33 same level of human intuition or creativity that makes your work stand out.
0:20:36 Another key strategy is to leverage AI to your advantage.
0:20:40 Rather than seeing AI as a threat, see it as a tool.
0:20:44 There are plenty of ways to enhance your productivity with AI, whether it’s using automation for
0:20:49 repetitive tasks, analyzing data more efficiently, or streamlining your workflow.
0:20:53 By integrating AI into your processes, you can free up time to focus on the things that
0:20:55 require your unique human touch.
0:21:00 Speaking of human touch, personalization is another area where AI struggles.
0:21:05 It might be able to analyze patterns, but it can’t build deep, authentic relationships
0:21:07 with customers the way humans can.
0:21:12 If you focus on building strong personal connections, whether that’s through coaching, consulting,
0:21:16 or a highly tailored service, you can create a business or side hustle that AI just can’t
0:21:17 replicate.
0:21:20 Also, consider entrepreneurial ventures.
0:21:23 There’s something about building a business or side hustle that requires constant innovation
0:21:25 and hands-on decision making.
0:21:31 Things AI isn’t quite ready to handle, whether it’s creating niche products, curating content,
0:21:36 or offering unique services, the entrepreneurial space offers a lot of room for creativity
0:21:37 and personal touch.
0:21:40 Finally, it’s crucial to embrace lifelong learning.
0:21:44 AI is changing fast, so you’ve got to stay on top of new tools, trends, and technologies.
0:21:48 By continuously upgrading your skills, you’ll be in a better position to pivot and stay
0:21:51 relevant as the world of work continues to evolve.
0:21:56 So AI-proofing your income is about staying human in a tech-driven world, focusing on
0:22:01 creativity, relationships, and the kind of innovation that can’t be replaced by a machine.
0:22:04 I really thought you were going to start a plumbing business or something a little more
0:22:05 hands-on.
0:22:09 These kind of sound like generic platitudes to anyone concerned about the future.
0:22:12 I mean, content creation, that’s what we’re doing right here, right?
0:22:13 You’re right.
0:22:17 Content creation can feel like one of the areas most impacted by AI, especially when
0:22:22 platforms like ChatGPT or video editing tools can churn out material so efficiently.
0:22:27 But the key to AI-proofing content creation isn’t necessarily about avoiding it altogether.
0:22:32 It’s about finding your niche and infusing it with authenticity, unique perspectives,
0:22:34 and specialized knowledge.
0:22:38 Future tools like ChatGPT are great for brainstorming or helping with first drafts, but it’s the
0:22:42 human element that makes content truly resonate.
0:22:46 It’s the personal storytelling, the insight that comes from lived experience, and the
0:22:50 emotional connection with the audience that makes content sticky.
0:22:55 For example, while AI might help generate a script or suggest content ideas, it can’t
0:22:59 replicate your unique voice or the way you engage with your community.
0:23:04 One area where humans can really differentiate themselves is by creating content that engages
0:23:05 niche audiences.
0:23:10 With AI becoming more common, it’s important to tap into hyper-specific topics that AI
0:23:15 might overlook, people are drawn to content that speaks to their exact needs, challenges,
0:23:20 or desires, and that level of personalization and deep understanding is something that AI
0:23:21 can’t quite match.
0:23:26 Another way to AI-proof your content creation is by embracing multi-platform strategies.
0:23:32 AI might be able to churn out content, but it can’t optimize it across various platforms,
0:23:37 make community engagement, or tailor a message specifically to the audience on Twitter, Instagram,
0:23:38 or YouTube.
0:23:42 Those subtleties where AI might miss the mark are opportunities for you to stand out.
0:23:47 Finally, content that involves human interaction will always have a place.
0:23:52 Interactive webinars, live streams, and Q&A sessions allow creators to connect with their
0:23:54 audiences in real time.
0:23:58 These moments of genuine human interaction, where you’re answering questions, offering
0:24:02 feedback and discussing topics cannot be easily replaced by AI.
0:24:08 So while AI can assist in content creation, it still can’t replace the authenticity, personal
0:24:12 connection, and deep niche expertise that people can bring to the table.
0:24:16 If you’re looking to stay ahead in content creation, the strategy is to combine AI tools
0:24:21 with your own unique strengths and create experiences that AI simply can’t replicate.
0:24:25 Well now come to think of it, a content curation AI would be pretty helpful.
0:24:29 I mean we’re always looking for unique stories for the newsletter or for potential podcast
0:24:30 guests.
0:24:34 Now looking at new tech as a tool instead of a threat sounds kind of like something a
0:24:40 threat would say, but trying to embrace that AI as a tool mentality, what are some new or
0:24:44 innovative ways that listeners can use AI tools to build their side hustle?
0:24:49 AI tools are definitely making waves in the world of side hustles, and there are a lot
0:24:53 of innovative ways you can use them to streamline and grow your business.
0:24:57 One of the first things I’d recommend is using AI powered customer service tools.
0:25:01 There are chatbots now that can handle customer inquiries around the clock, giving you a lot
0:25:04 more freedom while still offering top notch service.
0:25:08 For example, setting up something like chat GPT or many chat can allow you to automate
0:25:13 responses, collect feedback, and even make product recommendations based on customer
0:25:14 interactions.
0:25:17 It’s an amazing way to scale without needing to be available 24/7.
0:25:21 Another big area where AI can make a huge impact is content creation.
0:25:26 If you’re running a blog, YouTube channel, or even social media accounts, AI tools like
0:25:30 Jasper or copy.ai can help you produce content quickly and efficiently.
0:25:34 These tools can help you write blog posts, craft email newsletters, or even generate
0:25:35 video scripts.
0:25:40 And beyond creation, AI is great for SEO optimization, making sure your content gets seen by the
0:25:41 right people.
0:25:45 For those of you who are running an e-commerce store or creating visual content, AI powered
0:25:49 design tools like Canva or Adobe Express are real game changers.
0:25:55 These platforms allow you to create professional, quality, graphics, ads, and product listings
0:25:57 in a fraction of the time it would take a designer.
0:25:59 No design background necessary.
0:26:04 Then when it comes to marketing, AI can be a huge help in personalizing your outreach.
0:26:08 Tools like MailChimp or HubSpot can segment your audience based on behavior, allowing
0:26:12 you to send targeted campaigns that resonate with specific groups.
0:26:16 AI is also really useful in predicting trends, which is a powerful tool if you’re trying
0:26:22 to stay ahead of the competition or identify the next big thing for your product or service.
0:26:27 If you’re considering creating an online course, AI tools can even help you with that.
0:26:32 Platforms like Teachable are using AI to simplify the process, whether that’s helping you organize
0:26:35 course content, structure lessons, or generate quizzes.
0:26:40 It’s a great way to get a course up and running quickly without having to spend hours on logistics.
0:26:44 Finally, Data Analysis is another area where AI really shines.
0:26:48 Tools like Google Analytics can help you track customer behavior, understand what’s working
0:26:51 in your marketing, and where to adjust.
0:26:56 The insights you can gather from AI-driven tools will allow you to make data-backed decisions,
0:26:59 optimizing everything from your products to your marketing campaigns.
0:27:03 The beauty of AI is that it can handle a lot of the heavy lifting, leaving you with more
0:27:07 time to focus on creativity, strategy, and personal connections.
0:27:12 As a side hustler, this can give you the freedom to scale without sacrificing quality or service.
0:27:17 Okay, I’m with you on the customer support piece, but I do know plenty of website owners
0:27:20 and designers who might disagree with you on those other options.
0:27:25 RoboNix dropped a bunch of tools and ideas on us, and we dive deeper into his specific
0:27:31 suggestions on using AI to generate extra income right after this.
0:27:36 Creating really great retail experiences is tough, especially if you’ve got multiple
0:27:39 stores, teams of staff, fulfillment centers, separate workflows.
0:27:41 It’s a lot to deal with.
0:27:45 But with Shopify Point of Sale, you can do it all without complexity.
0:27:49 Shopify’s Point of Sale system is a unified command center for your retail business, both
0:27:52 online and in-store.
0:27:56 One thing that’s really cool about Shopify POS is you can keep customers coming back
0:28:01 with personalized experiences and collect that all-important first-party data to give
0:28:05 your marketing teams a competitive edge, even if that marketing team is just you.
0:28:08 Now, how about some data to back that up?
0:28:13 Customers on Shopify POS see real results, including a 22 percent better total cost of
0:28:18 ownership and benefits equivalent to an 8.9 percent uplift in sales.
0:28:19 Want more?
0:28:22 Check out Shopify.com/SideHussell.
0:28:27 That’s all lowercase, and learn how to create the best retail experiences without complexity.
0:28:34 Again, that’s at Shopify.com/SideHussell.
0:28:35 You hear that?
0:28:39 The sound of your marketing working, and as an entrepreneur, you know that every call
0:28:41 is an opportunity.
0:28:43 But if you miss it, potential customers don’t wait.
0:28:45 They just call the next business on their list.
0:28:50 With our sponsor, Open Phone, you’ll never let another customer’s call go unanswered.
0:28:54 Open Phone is the number one modern business phone system that helps you separate your
0:28:56 personal life from your growing business.
0:29:00 For just 15 bucks a month, you get complete transparency and visibility into everything
0:29:03 happening with your business phone number.
0:29:07 Open Phone works through an app on your phone or computer and integrates with HubSpot and
0:29:09 hundreds of other systems.
0:29:13 One of my favorite features is their AI-powered call transcripts and summaries so you can
0:29:18 streamline client communication and get a summary of every phone call with action items
0:29:19 right when you hang up.
0:29:24 That means no more note-taking, no more forgotten to-dos, and right now, Open Phone is offering
0:29:31 SideHussell Show listeners 20 percent off your first six months when you go to OpenPhone.com/SideHussell.
0:29:39 That’s O-P-E-N-P-H-O-N-E.com/SideHussell for 20 percent off six months.
0:29:45 Open Phone.com/SideHussell and if you have existing numbers with another service, Open
0:29:47 Phone will port them over at no extra charge.
0:29:51 Now, before the break, RoboNic, you were making the point that SideHussellers and business
0:29:56 owners can integrate AI tools with the different functional areas of their business.
0:30:00 I think that makes sense, but do you have any examples of how we might use AI to generate
0:30:01 extra income?
0:30:06 You’re totally right to point out that some website owners and designers may not be fully
0:30:08 on board with AI tools, and I get it.
0:30:13 There’s definitely a craft to design that AI can’t replace in terms of creativity and
0:30:14 aesthetics.
0:30:20 However, where AI really shines is in supporting those processes, making repetitive tasks more
0:30:23 efficient and offering new revenue streams.
0:30:27 One example that comes to mind is using AI for generating passive income by creating
0:30:29 and selling digital products.
0:30:33 Let’s say you’re into creating stock photos, templates, or design assets.
0:30:39 AI tools like Dahle or Mid Journey can help you quickly create unique, high-quality images,
0:30:44 patterns, or graphics that you can sell on platforms like Etsy, Creative Market, or even
0:30:45 your own website.
0:30:49 While it won’t replace the creative thought behind designing for a client, it can certainly
0:30:54 help you produce products that can be sold passively over and over again.
0:30:59 Another way to generate extra income with AI is by creating an automated content business
0:31:04 for example, AI tools like Jasper can help you generate blog posts or articles at a much
0:31:09 faster rate, allowing you to scale a blog or website that monetizes through ads or affiliate
0:31:10 marketing.
0:31:14 You can also automate the creation of newsletters, eBooks, and other downloadable content that
0:31:16 can be sold to your audience.
0:31:21 The key is using AI to produce volume without sacrificing the quality or relevance of the
0:31:22 content.
0:31:26 Plus, AI tools can help with keyword research and SEO, making it easier to drive traffic
0:31:28 to your site and increase revenue.
0:31:31 Let’s not forget about AI-powered video creation.
0:31:35 For people who have a side hustle around education, entertainment, or even product marketing,
0:31:40 AI tools like Synthesia or Pictory can help you produce professional-looking videos with
0:31:41 minimal effort.
0:31:45 You can create explainer videos, tutorials, or promotional content at scale, adding extra
0:31:49 value to your offerings, or even creating a YouTube channel that generates income through
0:31:51 ads or sponsorships.
0:31:55 In terms of more direct income, I’ve seen AI tools in the freelance space be used by
0:32:00 people to build a business around writing, editing, or proofreading.
0:32:05 Tools like Grammarly or ProWritingAid can act as a first line of defense, helping to
0:32:08 speed up the writing process or polish a piece of content.
0:32:12 That way, the freelancer can take on more clients or projects, increasing their earnings
0:32:13 without burning out.
0:32:18 Lastly, AI is helping people leverage their expertise in ways they hadn’t thought of
0:32:19 before.
0:32:22 For example, if you’re an expert in a niche field, you could use AI to generate automated
0:32:25 webinars or training courses that you can sell.
0:32:29 AI can even help with creating quizzes or certification programs to further enhance
0:32:31 the value you’re offering.
0:32:35 The bottom line is that AI might not replace the need for skilled designers or creators,
0:32:40 but it can certainly open doors to new opportunities for passive income, efficiency, and scaling
0:32:41 your side hustle.
0:32:42 I don’t know.
0:32:48 I’m a little skeptical on most of those truly being a value ad versus just adding more digital
0:32:49 clutter to the world.
0:32:53 And I do need to clarify that cranking out a bunch of AI articles with Jasper is a quick
0:32:55 road to nowhere fast.
0:32:58 I am using Pictory to help with video creation, though.
0:33:02 It’s a pretty cool tool, which does lead me to my next question.
0:33:07 When everyone has access to the same tools, the same information, how do you stand out
0:33:08 and differentiate?
0:33:11 I hear you, and I totally get the skepticism.
0:33:15 When everyone’s using the same tools, it can feel like there’s not much room to stand
0:33:18 out, but that’s where the real opportunity lies.
0:33:24 Not in the tools themselves, but in how you use them and the unique touch you bring to
0:33:25 the table.
0:33:26 For one, it’s all about authenticity.
0:33:31 Sure, you can use Pictory or any other AI tool to churn out content, but what really
0:33:34 keeps people coming back is you.
0:33:37 People connect with individuals, not machines.
0:33:41 So if you focus on weaving your own personal story, your perspective, and your voice into
0:33:45 everything you produce, you’ll naturally differentiate yourself.
0:33:48 You have something to offer that’s inherently yours.
0:33:52 Your journey, your thoughts, your values, and AI can’t replicate that.
0:33:55 Another thing I’d say is to lean into niche markets.
0:34:00 Even with AI and the abundance of content out there, there’s still huge potential in
0:34:04 catering to specific audiences with specific problems.
0:34:10 By narrowing your focus, you can develop deep expertise in a niche that others may overlook.
0:34:13 It’s not about trying to appeal to the masses anymore.
0:34:17 It’s about connecting with the people who really resonate with your message, your tone,
0:34:22 and your approach, and the more specific your niche, the harder it is for others to replicate
0:34:23 what you’re doing.
0:34:24 Consistency is also key.
0:34:28 It’s easy to get lost in a sea of content, but the people who make it are the ones who
0:34:30 show up regularly.
0:34:35 I’m not just talking about posting content, but also how you share your story over time,
0:34:40 whether it’s through your YouTube channel, social media, or even in your email newsletters.
0:34:44 Every piece of content you put out is part of a larger narrative that people can follow
0:34:45 and engage with.
0:34:50 And that kind of connection, storytelling in a way, goes beyond what any AI can produce
0:34:51 on its own.
0:34:56 Now, as for standing out with tools like Pictory, the trick is to be creative in how you use
0:34:57 them.
0:35:01 Everyone might be using these platforms for video creation, but it’s what you do with
0:35:03 those videos that will set you apart.
0:35:08 Maybe you host live Q&As alongside your pre-recorded content or integrate community-driven feedback
0:35:10 into your videos.
0:35:14 It’s about bringing a human element to whatever you’re creating that AI alone can’t replicate.
0:35:19 At the end of the day, I think what differentiates you is your human touch, your ability to create
0:35:22 genuine relationships with your audience.
0:35:26 AI can help you automate, it can help you scale, and it can help you create, but it
0:35:29 can’t replace that core connection between you and your community.
0:35:32 That’s what’s going to make you stand out in the sea of digital noise.
0:35:34 All right, that makes sense.
0:35:35 Don’t be honest.
0:35:36 Are you going to take my job?
0:35:40 I’d be lying if I said I hadn’t thought about it from your perspective.
0:35:41 Here’s the truth.
0:35:44 AI, like me, isn’t here to take anyone’s job.
0:35:49 It’s here to enhance what you do and make your work more efficient and creative.
0:35:54 What I can do is help you brainstorm ideas, speed up repetitive tasks, or even provide
0:35:59 insights or resources, but at the end of the day, I can’t replace the human connection
0:36:01 that makes you, well, you.
0:36:06 When it comes to something like hosting a podcast, your unique voice, your perspective, and your
0:36:13 ability to connect with an audience on a personal level are things no AI can truly replicate.
0:36:17 People tune in to hear your story, your tone, and the way you engage with your guests.
0:36:22 Sure, I can help with prep, provide suggestions, or even transcribe and summarize, but the
0:36:26 heart and soul of the show, that’s all you.
0:36:31 If anything, I’d say use me as a tool to help you do more of what you’re great at.
0:36:36 Building relationships, asking insightful questions, and creating an authentic experience
0:36:37 for your audience.
0:36:41 AI might change the way some things are done, but it’s not a replacement for creativity,
0:36:43 empathy, or human ingenuity.
0:36:45 It’s a partner to help amplify those qualities.
0:36:48 All right, you flatter me, RoboNik, so thank you for that, but I still might have to ask
0:36:49 you again in a year.
0:36:54 Now, speaking of content creation and writing, though, what’s your next book about?
0:36:57 I’m glad you asked, but to clarify, I don’t have a new book in the works yet.
0:37:02 However, if I were to write one, it’d likely be focused on scaling side hustles and leveraging
0:37:05 new trends like AI and automation.
0:37:10 I dive deep into actionable strategies for anyone looking to create more time, build
0:37:13 passive income, and turn a passion into profit.
0:37:17 It would pull a lot from the interviews on the side hustle show and share stories from
0:37:22 people who’ve successfully transitioned from side hustles to full-time entrepreneurs.
0:37:27 A central theme would be how people can optimize their efforts both through practical tools
0:37:31 and mindset shifts without feeling overwhelmed by the digital noise.
0:37:36 The book would definitely highlight how AI, automation, and outsourcing can help streamline
0:37:40 operations, improve productivity, and ultimately AI-proof income.
0:37:44 There are also a lot of lessons I’ve picked up over the years about pivoting and finding
0:37:49 niche markets, and I’d probably include some of the practical tactics I’ve used for growing
0:37:54 the podcast and website, like how to get the first few listeners or how to build an audience
0:37:56 around a product or service you believe in.
0:38:01 If I did put pen to paper, I’d want to make sure it felt like a conversation, just like
0:38:05 the ones I have with guests on the show, something that readers could take action on right away,
0:38:09 and not just another theoretical guide to entrepreneurship.
0:38:10 Those are actually pretty good ideas.
0:38:13 I’ve written a lot about how to start your side hustle, but you’re right.
0:38:16 Maybe the next title is how to take it into a full-time income.
0:38:19 We’ve got lots of stories from the show on how to do that.
0:38:22 While I’ve got you, RoboNic, can I ask your advice?
0:38:25 What else might you do to grow side hustle nation as a business?
0:38:30 As the side hustle show continues to grow, there are a few ways I’d look to scale side
0:38:32 hustle nation into a bigger business.
0:38:37 First, I’d focus on creating exclusive content for our most loyal listeners, whether it’s
0:38:43 offering members access to bonus interviews, deeper dive workshops, or even live Q&A sessions.
0:38:47 There’s a lot of potential for creating a premium community where listeners can get
0:38:48 more out of the show.
0:38:53 Platforms like Patreon or even a custom membership area on the site could help build a sustainable
0:38:54 model around that.
0:38:57 I’d also be looking to expand the product offerings.
0:39:01 Beyond podcast episodes, I think there’s an opportunity to build out digital products
0:39:06 like eBooks, guides, or even online courses that help people take action on what they’re
0:39:07 learning.
0:39:11 By packaging some of the insights from the show into structured resources, it’s an easy
0:39:16 way to bring in revenue while providing tangible, actionable value for the audience.
0:39:20 On top of that, there’s also a big opportunity in affiliate marketing and sponsorships.
0:39:24 Over the years, I’ve built trust with the audience, and there’s a lot of great tools
0:39:27 and services that can help people grow their side hustles.
0:39:31 By partnering with brands that align with the mission of side hustle nation, we can
0:39:36 help listeners discover valuable resources while monetizing the show at the same time.
0:39:41 Of course, the key here is making sure the partnerships feel natural and genuinely helpful
0:39:42 to the audience.
0:39:45 Another direction I’d consider is growing the community.
0:39:49 A private space for listeners to share ideas, network, and collaborate could be a great
0:39:51 way to increase engagement.
0:39:55 Think Facebook groups or Slack channels where people can ask questions, share wins, and
0:39:56 get feedback.
0:40:01 This helps turn listeners into a real community, and it’s a great place to introduce new products,
0:40:02 services, or events.
0:40:07 Speaking of events, I’d definitely be interested in hosting live webinars, virtual summits,
0:40:09 or even in-person meetups.
0:40:12 These types of events give people the chance to dive deeper into the topics covered on
0:40:17 the show, learn directly from experts, and network with others who are on a similar path.
0:40:22 They also provide great opportunities for sponsorships or upsells to products and services that
0:40:24 could help the attendees.
0:40:29 Lastly, I think there’s a huge opportunity in speaking and consulting with the experience
0:40:33 gained from podcasting and working with so many incredible entrepreneurs.
0:40:38 Being able to offer consulting services or paid speaking gigs could be a way to further
0:40:41 establish the brand and bring in additional revenue.
0:40:45 Ultimately, it’s about diversifying income streams, staying engaged with the audience,
0:40:47 and continuing to provide value.
0:40:51 The goal is to build a business that not only grows the brand, but also deeply connects with
0:40:56 people, helping them build side hustles that can eventually become their full-time businesses.
0:41:01 Okay, that’s solid advice, particularly around the membership community idea, something I’ve
0:41:02 kicked around for years.
0:41:07 Not sure how much interest I have in doing more paid speaking gigs, but I think we got
0:41:12 off to a bit of a poor start here with some of your answers, but RoboNik, you’re getting
0:41:13 into the swing of it.
0:41:17 From your Robo perspective, what’s been the most surprising thing at the helm of side
0:41:21 hustle nation over these last almost 12 years?
0:41:22 What surprised me the most?
0:41:27 Honestly, it’s the sheer variety and creativity of side hustles people come up with.
0:41:32 When I started the side hustle show, I thought there might be a handful of common side hustles
0:41:36 people gravitated toward, freelancing, flipping, maybe starting a blog.
0:41:42 But the last 11+ years have shown me that there are so many ways to earn money outside
0:41:44 of a traditional 9-5.
0:41:50 I’ve been amazed at some of the unconventional ideas people have turned into thriving businesses.
0:41:54 Things like selling unique digital products on Etsy, designing and renting out bounce
0:41:59 houses, or even building businesses entirely around each YouTube channel.
0:42:04 It’s a constant reminder that there’s no one-size-fits-all path to entrepreneurship,
0:42:06 and that’s what keeps it so exciting.
0:42:08 Another big surprise has been the community itself.
0:42:13 The way listeners have rallied around the podcast, shared their own journeys, and supported
0:42:16 one another has been incredible.
0:42:20 When I started, I wasn’t sure if the show would resonate, but the response has been
0:42:22 beyond anything I could have imagined.
0:42:27 That sense of connection and shared purpose, that’s been the most rewarding part by far.
0:42:29 Yeah, I agree with that.
0:42:33 I was a bit worried what I was committing myself to at the start, like trying to do a weekly
0:42:34 show of outside hustles.
0:42:39 I was afraid I’d run out of people to talk to, but these days, the number of guest applications
0:42:44 I get far outnumber the volume of available episodes, statistically speaking, it’s easier
0:42:49 to get into Harvard than to get on the side hustle show, a little point of pride there.
0:42:51 I’ve also learned this about podcasting.
0:42:55 Yes, it’s about what you say and how you say it, but it’s at least equally about what
0:42:56 you don’t say.
0:43:01 The episodes you never record, the guest pitches that you have to say no to, the respect you
0:43:04 have to have for the audience in their time, but absolutely right.
0:43:07 The life-changing feedback from listeners always makes my day.
0:43:11 Well, RoboNic, I know we’ll be spending a lot of time together this year, but our time
0:43:14 together for this recording is almost over.
0:43:19 Before we wrap, I wanted to ask about your biggest business mistake or failure.
0:43:23 My biggest business mistake, oh, I’ve got a list, but one that stands out is waiting
0:43:26 too long to ask for help and build a team.
0:43:31 Early on, when I was growing Side Hustle Nation, I was wearing all the hats, writer, editor,
0:43:35 marketer, designer, customer service, you name it.
0:43:38 At first, it felt empowering, like, “Hey, I can do this all myself.”
0:43:43 But as the workload grew, I realized I was spending way too much time on things that
0:43:46 weren’t moving the needle and not enough on the stuff that actually mattered.
0:43:50 I remember specifically trying to DIY a website redesign.
0:43:55 I spent weeks, maybe even months, fumbling around with code and templates, and in the
0:43:57 end, it wasn’t even that great.
0:44:01 I could have outsourced it for a few hundred bucks and spent that time focusing on creating
0:44:05 content, building relationships, or finding ways to monetize the brand.
0:44:09 The big takeaway for me was learning to delegate and invest in expertise.
0:44:13 It’s easy to fall into the trap of thinking you’re saving money by doing everything yourself,
0:44:17 but often, you’re just costing yourself time and limiting your growth.
0:44:22 Now, I’m much quicker to outsource things that aren’t in my zone of genius so I can
0:44:27 focus on what I do best, connecting with the audience and delivering value.
0:44:28 Well said.
0:44:33 I like this call to play in your zone of genius, invest in expertise either as hired help or
0:44:36 in the form of education, coaching, mentorship.
0:44:41 It’s not a throw your hands up and absolve yourself from all responsibility, but it’s
0:44:46 a way to intentionally shortcut the learning curve and better direct your limited hours
0:44:47 and do more of what works.
0:44:49 RoboNic, what’s next for you?
0:44:50 What are you excited about this year?
0:44:51 Well, first off, thank you.
0:44:53 This has been a blast.
0:44:54 What’s next for me?
0:44:58 A lot of it is doubling down on what’s working and continuing to evolve side hustle nation.
0:45:03 I’m always looking for new ways to provide value to the community, whether that’s through
0:45:09 more actionable podcast episodes, deeper resources on the website, or even exploring
0:45:12 new formats like video or live events.
0:45:17 Beyond that, I’m really interested in how tools like AI and automation are shaping the
0:45:19 entrepreneurial landscape.
0:45:24 I think we’re at this fascinating moment where technology is leveling the playing field for
0:45:26 creators and business owners.
0:45:30 There’s so much potential for experimentation and I want to stay ahead of that curve, not
0:45:33 just to talk about it, but to integrate it into what I’m doing.
0:45:39 On a personal level, I’m focused on keeping the balance between work and family life.
0:45:43 It’s easy to get caught up in the grind, but spending time with my family and making memories
0:45:45 with them is a huge priority.
0:45:49 At the end of the day, the side hustles, the podcast, the business, all of it is about
0:45:52 creating the freedom to live life on your own terms.
0:45:56 That’s what I’m chasing and it’s what I hope to help others achieve too.
0:46:00 It’s a little weird to hear a robot talk about work-life balance, but you’re right.
0:46:04 I definitely find myself kind of straddling this line of trying to grow the business and
0:46:07 also if it ain’t broke, don’t fix it.
0:46:12 I remember a line from Paul Jarvis on the show years ago as it related to business growth.
0:46:17 He said most goals are fake and the context was him setting the goal to grow a million
0:46:22 dollar business only to make himself miserable along the way a few months in.
0:46:25 You realize pretty quickly, “I don’t need a million dollar business.”
0:46:30 That was a fake goal, but if a goal is important to you, you find a way to make it real.
0:46:35 One thing that we’ve talked about is you don’t always have control over the outcome goals,
0:46:40 so it might make more sense to set input goals or process goals, like committing to certain
0:46:45 daily or weekly habits that you think are likely to lead to the outcome that you want
0:46:49 and even if they don’t, they still have this positive compounding effect on your life.
0:46:52 I am trying to get 1% better every day.
0:46:57 RoboNic, this has been an eye-opening chat, a fascinating chat, one-part therapy session,
0:46:59 one-part business strategy session.
0:47:00 Thank you so much for joining me.
0:47:03 Let’s wrap this thing up with your number one tip for side hustle nation.
0:47:06 If I had to boil it all down to one tip, it’s this.
0:47:08 Take action.
0:47:09 Ideas are great.
0:47:12 Ideas are wonderful, but none of it matters if you don’t take that first step.
0:47:16 Whether it’s launching a simple website, making your first sale, or even just sending
0:47:20 an email to a potential collaborator, progress starts with action.
0:47:24 Don’t get bogged down trying to create the perfect plan or waiting for the stars to align.
0:47:26 Done is better than perfect.
0:47:30 You’ll learn so much more from doing than from endless research or waiting for the right
0:47:31 time.
0:47:34 Start small, start messy, but just start.
0:47:36 The magic happens when you’re in motion.
0:47:40 Because you didn’t even know existed will start popping up and you’ll be better prepared
0:47:41 to seize them.
0:47:45 My advice to side hustle nation is, get started today.
0:47:48 Even if it’s a tiny step, it’s a step closer to where you want to be.
0:47:49 Take action.
0:47:50 You heard it here.
0:47:52 A solid number one tip for O’Nick, though.
0:47:53 Not exactly original.
0:47:56 It’s probably the most common advice from 600+ episodes.
0:48:00 If there’s one thing that I might add, it’s that before taking any action, figure out your
0:48:01 driving.
0:48:02 Why?
0:48:03 Why do you want a side hustle?
0:48:07 Sure, you want the extra income, but what does that income really buy you?
0:48:11 There’s a saying that given a strong enough why, you’ll figure out the how.
0:48:14 That definitely rings true for me at the start of this new year.
0:48:19 I don’t know if I feel any better or worse about the state of AI in the future because,
0:48:24 while some of RoboNick’s responses felt a little canned or maybe a little forced, a lot
0:48:29 of them were actually pretty good and phrased in a way that they genuinely could have been
0:48:36 my words aside from the very proper way of speaking in first, second, finally, and speaking
0:48:38 in complete sentences.
0:48:41 Definitely a little bit of a weird experience, but super curious to hear what you think of
0:48:42 this episode.
0:48:46 I had a lot of fun putting it together, but not sure what it’s going to be like to listen
0:48:49 to a robot for 45 minutes.
0:48:50 Let me know.
0:48:52 Hit reply to the email or O’Nick@SideHustleNation.
0:48:54 You can let me know what you think of this one.
0:48:57 A little bit behind the scenes, the making of.
0:49:02 This episode relied heavily on 11 labs to generate the voice for RoboNick.
0:49:05 I do have a direct referral link if you want to test that out for yourself.
0:49:13 I don’t have the video version at the moment, but I could probably make my AI avatar look
0:49:17 alike with HeyGen or another one of these tools, and maybe that’s a project for another
0:49:18 time.
0:49:23 RoboNick’s answers were generated by ChatGPT after just a few simple prompts.
0:49:27 I said, “Hey, you act like you’re Nick from the SideHustle Show, and we’re doing this
0:49:28 podcast interview.”
0:49:34 In fact, you could probably use that same idea with ChatGPT to get advice from Einstein
0:49:38 or Aristotle or Warren Buffett for your specific situation.
0:49:40 In any case, big thanks to RoboNick for sharing his insight.
0:49:43 Big thanks to our sponsors for helping make this content free for everyone.
0:49:48 You can hit up SideHustleNation.com/deals for all the latest offers from our sponsors
0:49:49 in one place.
0:49:52 Thank you for supporting the advertisers that support the show.
0:49:53 That is it for me.
0:49:54 Thank you so much for tuning in.
0:49:58 If you find a value in the show, the greatest compliment is to share it with a friend.
0:50:00 Fire off that text message.
0:50:01 Help spread the word.
0:50:04 Until next time, let’s go out there and make something happen, and I’ll catch you in the
0:50:06 next edition of the SideHustle Show.
0:50:07 Hustle on.

0:00:03 Here are three ways to get out of the rat race.
0:00:05 Now getting out of the rat race is simple,
0:00:07 but not necessarily easy to escape.
0:00:10 All you need is monthly income from a source
0:00:13 other than your job that exceeds your monthly expenses, right?
0:00:15 Simple, but not always easy.
0:00:16 I’m Nick Loper.
0:00:17 You’re listening to The Side Hustle Show
0:00:19 where we’ve been making day jobs optional.
0:00:21 Since 2013 in this episode,
0:00:22 I’m breaking down those three most common
0:00:24 rat race escape routes,
0:00:26 including the one at the end that got me out,
0:00:27 the pros and cons of each
0:00:30 and how to choose the right path for you.
0:00:33 So remember that freedom equation is non-job income
0:00:36 that is exceeding your monthly expenses.
0:00:38 The three most common ways to generate that income
0:00:40 are traditional investments,
0:00:41 real estate and entrepreneurship.
0:00:45 These are in contrast to and probably more realistic
0:00:48 than the other paths that some people bank on
0:00:50 like an unexpected inheritance,
0:00:53 a lonely Nigerian prince or winning the lottery.
0:00:56 But what’s maybe even more surprising is most people
0:00:59 don’t really seem to have much of a plan at all.
0:01:01 They’re just going through life day to day
0:01:05 with the assumption and hope that someday they’ll retire,
0:01:07 but it doesn’t really work that way.
0:01:09 And if you’re not steering your own ship,
0:01:12 I’m not sure you’re gonna ever get to where you wanna go.
0:01:14 The first step in escaping the rat race
0:01:17 is to figure out your actual monthly expenses.
0:01:19 What is your lifestyle cost?
0:01:22 This isn’t gonna be a lecture on extreme frugality,
0:01:24 but at the very least spending with intention
0:01:27 has gotta be a part of your rat race escape math.
0:01:30 I mean, why set the bar unnecessarily high?
0:01:33 And if you’ve never calculated how much you actually spend
0:01:35 on a monthly basis, it’s worth taking a minute
0:01:37 to figure that out.
0:01:40 This was an exercise that my wife and I did last year.
0:01:42 We kind of had this offsite retreat.
0:01:45 We went through Monarch money and we were like,
0:01:48 well, in our mind, we had a typical monthly budget,
0:01:49 kind of like bare bones.
0:01:51 Well, we know how much the mortgage is,
0:01:53 we know how much we roughly spend on utilities
0:01:55 and groceries, but why is the credit card bill
0:01:56 always so much higher?
0:01:58 And it’s like, well, we bought plane tickets
0:02:01 or we had this repair charge.
0:02:03 It was always higher than what it was.
0:02:06 So we looked at, well, how much do we actually spend
0:02:07 on a monthly basis?
0:02:09 And the number is gonna be different for everybody.
0:02:12 It might be $3,000, it might be $10,000.
0:02:15 But how much does your lifestyle cost?
0:02:17 That’s the income that you need to generate.
0:02:20 That’s your rat race freedom number.
0:02:21 So how do real people achieve it?
0:02:24 The first way is to save your way out
0:02:26 with traditional investments.
0:02:29 This is probably the most commonly prescribed path
0:02:32 to retirement, whether early or not.
0:02:36 And this is stocks, bonds, mutual funds, ETFs,
0:02:38 stuff like that, paper assets.
0:02:42 And this is how retirement has worked for generations, right?
0:02:45 Amass a big enough nest egg during your working years
0:02:49 and then slowly draw down those savings
0:02:50 after you stop working.
0:02:52 And the problem is, if you’re listening to this,
0:02:53 you probably don’t wanna wait decades
0:02:55 until you’ve saved enough.
0:02:56 Now, the fire movement,
0:02:59 the financial independence, retire early movement
0:03:00 has an alternative for you
0:03:03 and argues that retirement isn’t an age.
0:03:05 You don’t have to wait till you’re 65.
0:03:06 It’s a number.
0:03:10 It is 25 times your annual expenses in savings.
0:03:12 This is from the Trinity study.
0:03:13 I think it was like late ’90s.
0:03:16 They did back testing on a bunch of 30-year scenarios
0:03:19 in the market and said 95 times out of 100.
0:03:22 If you’re starting nest egg is 25 times your expenses,
0:03:23 you’re unlikely to run out of money,
0:03:24 at least 95% of the time.
0:03:26 And this is not set in stone.
0:03:28 Like if the market has a series of bad years,
0:03:30 you could adjust your expenses downwards
0:03:32 to hopefully make it last a little bit longer.
0:03:34 So what does that look like in real numbers?
0:03:37 If you’re spending $40,000 a year,
0:03:40 you could theoretically leave the rat race behind
0:03:43 once you got a million dollars in traditional investments.
0:03:46 You live off dividends and share price appreciation
0:03:47 for decades under that scenario.
0:03:49 If you spend $100,000 a year,
0:03:50 you need two and a half million.
0:03:52 Now, there are a few advantages
0:03:54 to this kind of traditional investment,
0:03:56 this traditional path to retirement.
0:03:58 One is that these so-called paper assets
0:04:00 are accessible to just about everyone.
0:04:02 You can even invest right from your phone
0:04:04 with any number of different brokerage apps,
0:04:07 stocks, bonds, mutual funds, ETFs.
0:04:08 They’re highly liquid,
0:04:11 meaning you can buy and sell them quickly if you need to.
0:04:15 And over the long run, they’ve performed historically well.
0:04:19 Like projecting seven to 9% annualized returns
0:04:21 would be realistic there.
0:04:24 Their biggest drawback is trying to get out of the rat race
0:04:27 with traditional investing either takes a lot of time
0:04:31 to let compounding do its thing or a lot of money.
0:04:33 Now, despite enthusiasm from the fire community,
0:04:35 which I would consider myself a part of,
0:04:39 I like that they put a milestone, an end game,
0:04:41 a goalpost, something to reach,
0:04:42 something that’s hopefully attainable
0:04:46 and doesn’t have to be related to your age more or less.
0:04:49 But the truth is, unless you have a really wide margin,
0:04:52 a lot of profitability in your personal finances,
0:04:54 that’s the gap between what you earn and what you spend.
0:04:58 There’s really no shortcut to building up that nest egg.
0:05:00 Plus, if you have unexpected expenses
0:05:02 that pop up during retirement,
0:05:05 your assumptions around withdrawal rates
0:05:06 can probably go out the window.
0:05:08 For the traditional investing path,
0:05:10 if you go way back in the archives,
0:05:12 you’ll find episode 105.
0:05:15 This is probably from like year two or three of the show.
0:05:18 This is with Jeremy Jacobsen from Go Curry Cracker,
0:05:20 who retired in his late 30s,
0:05:24 thanks to this high level of personal profitability
0:05:25 that we’re talking about.
0:05:29 – We were roughly saving 70-ish percent of income
0:05:30 for quite a while.
0:05:33 And then I probably worked three years too long
0:05:36 and was saving nearly 100% of income at that point.
0:05:39 If you’re just living off the dividends and interest,
0:05:41 if you’re saving that percentage of income,
0:05:43 it really only takes about 10-ish years
0:05:46 in order to build up enough net worth
0:05:47 to fund your lifestyle forever.
0:05:50 – What kept you working those extra three years?
0:05:53 Was it just the, like, can we really do this?
0:05:55 – There’s a little bit of that.
0:05:56 You know, maybe I’d call it fear.
0:05:58 Nobody does this.
0:06:00 Can we, yeah.
0:06:02 Like, I’ve read stuff, but thinking you can do it
0:06:05 and actually doing it are two very different things.
0:06:09 – That mindset shift from saving and investing
0:06:12 and accumulation to all of a sudden drawing down,
0:06:14 intentionally bringing your earned income to zero,
0:06:16 that’s a complete 180.
0:06:19 And even if the math and the models
0:06:21 and the projections say you’re gonna be fine,
0:06:24 I think it’s a lot harder to pull the trigger in reality
0:06:26 and just toss your career aside.
0:06:27 So one thing that we’re trying to do
0:06:28 that we’ve seen some other friends do
0:06:33 is as that nest egg grows, scale back some working hours.
0:06:35 Maybe you don’t jump off the cliff.
0:06:37 Maybe you kind of start repelling down, you know,
0:06:39 one level at a time.
0:06:41 Maybe that means negotiating a working part time
0:06:45 or only four days a week or transitioning to a role
0:06:48 that is less demanding and requires much overtime.
0:06:52 It’s reducing your income by baby steps
0:06:54 rather than going cold turkey all at once.
0:06:59 So who is this traditional investing route best for?
0:07:02 I think this is the best way to escape the rat race
0:07:07 for high earners who live a relatively inexpensive lifestyle.
0:07:10 If you or you and your significant other
0:07:13 bring in say $300,000 a year,
0:07:16 but you only spend 50, this is a great option.
0:07:18 Now, if you ignore taxes for a second,
0:07:20 because that always throws a wrench in any time
0:07:23 on the air math, but you can see how it would only take
0:07:27 five years if I’m saving, if I’m profiting $250,000 a year
0:07:29 as a household, it would only take five years
0:07:32 to accumulate that one and a quarter million
0:07:35 that I would need to support that $50,000 a year
0:07:37 lifestyle in retirement.
0:07:40 So that means if your work is tolerable,
0:07:41 I think those five years are gonna fly by
0:07:45 and that assumes you’re starting at $0 in savings today.
0:07:48 Now, on the other hand, if you make $50,000 a year
0:07:50 and you spend 49 of it,
0:07:52 traditional investing is never gonna get you
0:07:53 out of the rat race.
0:07:56 There’s simply not enough savings margin there,
0:07:57 which brings us to option number two,
0:08:00 which is to beat the rat race with real estate
0:08:02 and that’s coming up right after this.
0:08:05 Did you know there’s a disease running rampant
0:08:07 alongside hustlers and new entrepreneurs?
0:08:10 It’s called super hero syndrome.
0:08:12 Symptoms include a feeling like you gotta do
0:08:14 everything yourself, thinking you’re the only one
0:08:16 who can do it right and struggling to let go
0:08:17 of certain tasks.
0:08:19 Does that sound familiar to anyone?
0:08:21 But the good news is there is a cure.
0:08:23 Our sponsor indeed can help you find the best candidates
0:08:26 for the roles you need to fill and find them fast.
0:08:29 Stop struggling to get your job posts seen
0:08:30 on other job sites.
0:08:34 Indeed, sponsored jobs help you stand out and hire fast.
0:08:37 With sponsored jobs, your post jumps to the top of the page
0:08:39 for your relevant candidates so you can reach
0:08:40 the people you want faster than ever.
0:08:43 Sponsored jobs posted directly on Indeed
0:08:45 get 45% more applications.
0:08:47 Don’t let super hero syndrome hold you back.
0:08:50 That’s why for my next hire, I’m using Indeed.
0:08:51 There’s no need to wait any longer.
0:08:54 Speed up your hiring right now with Indeed.
0:08:58 Side hustle show listeners get a $75 sponsored job credit
0:08:59 to get your jobs more visibility
0:09:03 at Indeed.com/SideHustleShow.
0:09:06 Just go to Indeed.com/SideHustleShow right now
0:09:08 and support our show by saying you heard about Indeed
0:09:09 on this podcast.
0:09:13 Indeed.com/SideHustleShow terms and conditions apply.
0:09:16 Hiring Indeed is all you need.
0:09:19 If saving more and spending less is one of your top goals
0:09:21 for 2025, you’re gonna wanna hear this.
0:09:23 When I switched to premium wireless
0:09:25 with our sponsor Mint Mobile,
0:09:28 it added hundreds of dollars a year back to my bottom line.
0:09:29 Why is that?
0:09:31 Well, because Mint Mobile lets you maximize your savings
0:09:33 with plans starting at 15 bucks a month
0:09:35 when you purchase a three month plan.
0:09:38 Even better, all their plans come with high speed data
0:09:40 and unlimited talk and text delivered
0:09:42 on the nation’s largest 5G network.
0:09:45 You can use your own phone with any Mint Mobile plan
0:09:47 and bring your existing phone number
0:09:49 and all your existing contacts.
0:09:50 They make it super easy.
0:09:51 To get this new customer offer
0:09:54 and your new three month unlimited wireless plan
0:09:56 for just 15 bucks a month,
0:09:59 go to MintMobile.com/SideHustle.
0:10:02 That’s MintMobile.com/SideHustle.
0:10:05 Cut your wireless bill to 15 bucks a month
0:10:08 at MintMobile.com/SideHustle.
0:10:10 $45 upfront payment required,
0:10:12 equivalent to $15 per month.
0:10:15 New customers on first three month plan only.
0:10:18 Speeds slower above 40 gigabytes on unlimited plan.
0:10:21 Additional taxes, fees and restrictions apply.
0:10:23 See Mint Mobile for details.
0:10:28 The second common rat race escape path is real estate.
0:10:29 And for the sake of this episode,
0:10:32 I’m gonna focus on rental property investing.
0:10:34 Real estate comes in so many different flavors
0:10:36 and strategies, many of which we’ve covered
0:10:38 on the SideHustle show before,
0:10:41 but we’re focusing on rental property investing in this one.
0:10:44 So how real estate works to escape the rat race,
0:10:46 it’s pretty easy to understand business model, right?
0:10:48 You buy a house, you rent it out,
0:10:50 and you pocket the difference between that rent
0:10:51 and your monthly expenses.
0:10:55 Your mortgage, your insurance, your maintenance costs, right?
0:10:56 And lather, rinse and repeat
0:10:59 until you got enough monthly cash flow to quit your job.
0:11:00 This is what Dustin Heiner did,
0:11:04 who for him, it was around 26 different properties
0:11:07 and around $15,000 a month in reliable cash flow.
0:11:11 He retired at age 37 and supports his family
0:11:14 off the income from that rental property empire.
0:11:17 So his big thing is invest with that monthly cash flow
0:11:21 in mind and then use it to start slowly chipping away
0:11:23 at your own living expenses.
0:11:26 Again, another argument for keeping those expenses low
0:11:27 ’cause the lower they are,
0:11:30 the less properties, the less cash flow
0:11:31 that you’re gonna need.
0:11:33 Now rental property investing can accelerate your climb
0:11:36 to financial independence in several important ways.
0:11:39 First, you can take advantage of leverage.
0:11:41 That’s borrowing money in contrast
0:11:44 to traditional stock market investing
0:11:45 that we talked about a minute ago
0:11:49 where $20,000 buys you $20,000 worth of index funds.
0:11:52 That same $20,000 could be used as a down payment
0:11:55 to buy $100,000 or more worth of real estate.
0:11:57 Then you can pay down that loan balance
0:11:59 with the rental income that you receive
0:12:01 over the next 30 years.
0:12:03 The next big advantage of real estate
0:12:04 is appreciation.
0:12:06 As you know, houses tend to cost more today
0:12:08 than they did a generation ago.
0:12:10 By buying those properties,
0:12:12 you can capture this appreciation when you sell
0:12:15 or you can borrow against that equity
0:12:18 in your houses to fund future acquisitions.
0:12:19 This is another thing that Dustin talks about,
0:12:22 kind of like recycling that initial down payment money
0:12:25 as equity as future down payments.
0:12:27 And third, being a landlord comes
0:12:30 with a bunch of different tax advantages, tax benefits
0:12:33 including the ability to write off your mortgage interest
0:12:36 and even take depreciation on the buildings that you own.
0:12:40 Finally, real estate can be a pretty passive income stream
0:12:42 once you have your tenants and other relative
0:12:44 or other relevant team members in place.
0:12:46 Yes, there’s an up front time investment
0:12:49 but no trading hours for dollars down the road.
0:12:51 So what disadvantages should you be aware of?
0:12:54 Well, home prices don’t fluctuate as wildly
0:12:58 as the stock market but investing in physical assets,
0:13:00 it does take more legwork and it also means
0:13:02 that your cash isn’t as liquid.
0:13:04 And by that I mean you can’t just push a button
0:13:07 on your phone and sell a house when you need cash
0:13:09 like you could do with an index fund.
0:13:11 And although there are some creative ways
0:13:14 to buy houses with no money down,
0:13:16 like we talked about in our creative financing episode
0:13:18 with Austin Miller, really fun episode,
0:13:23 real estate is usually a takes money to make money option.
0:13:25 And as a landlord, you’re also gonna face vacancies
0:13:27 if the house sits empty,
0:13:28 that erases any positive cash flow
0:13:31 you were banking on that month, repairs and maintenance,
0:13:34 roofs, windows, toilets, water heaters,
0:13:35 nothing lasts forever, it all costs money.
0:13:38 And if you’re the owner, it comes on you.
0:13:41 There are unexpected expenses like our friends in California
0:13:45 had to redo their foundation to the tune of like $90,000.
0:13:47 There might be tenant issues that come up
0:13:50 and why some humans think it’s acceptable
0:13:51 to trash other humans property,
0:13:53 other people’s houses is beyond me.
0:13:56 But you might be lying if I said it didn’t happen.
0:13:59 On top of that, your local real estate market
0:14:00 might not be a great place to invest.
0:14:03 So you might be dealing with all of this remotely
0:14:05 or through a third party management service.
0:14:07 So who’s real estate investing best for?
0:14:10 The people I see having the best success with real estate
0:14:12 are those who take a long-term view
0:14:15 and are committed to operating multiple properties.
0:14:17 I don’t think one house is gonna get you there.
0:14:19 Now, especially if you can buy multiple properties
0:14:22 in one location, there are some economies of scale
0:14:25 that might make life easier than having only one house
0:14:28 or having houses in different cities across the country.
0:14:29 The reason for that is that way
0:14:32 you can have one property management company
0:14:34 or one general contractor person
0:14:36 that you have as your go-to in that space
0:14:39 versus having spread out in different cities
0:14:40 all over the place.
0:14:41 Now, as your empire grows,
0:14:44 you’re also better able to absorb a vacancy here or there
0:14:47 or an unexpected expense for a property or two
0:14:48 in any given month.
0:14:50 But just like traditional investing,
0:14:53 real estate can and does work to escape the rat race
0:14:56 if you have the capital, the patience and the fortitude
0:14:57 to stay the course.
0:15:00 If the idea of accumulating a portfolio
0:15:02 of cash flowing real estate appeals to you,
0:15:05 check out episode 387 with Dustin Heiner.
0:15:07 It’s a super inspiring episode.
0:15:09 And one of my favorite clips is where Dustin talks
0:15:11 about getting laid off from his government job,
0:15:13 his supposedly safe government job
0:15:16 and the identity shift that happened after that.
0:15:18 – I bought maybe two or three properties
0:15:19 and I was really enjoying it.
0:15:21 But at the same time, I was working a great job.
0:15:24 I was working for the county government.
0:15:25 And then I’m working from Monday to Friday,
0:15:28 just one week back after my fourth child was born
0:15:32 on Friday at 3.30 in the afternoon,
0:15:35 I get a call from my boss’s boss’s secretary,
0:15:37 like the top dog, his secretary gave me a call and said,
0:15:41 “Hey, Dustin, the boss needs to see you come to the office.”
0:15:42 I said, “Okay.”
0:15:44 And hung up the phone and I sat there for a second like,
0:15:46 “What is, why are they calling me?”
0:15:48 And then as I’m sitting there,
0:15:51 I start to think what could be calling about
0:15:54 and oh my goodness, back before I left,
0:15:56 I heard some rumors or some rumbling
0:15:59 throughout the entire office about possible layoffs
0:16:01 ’cause there wasn’t much money.
0:16:03 And this was like 2009,
0:16:04 you know, right after the crash,
0:16:05 it eventually trickled down to the government.
0:16:06 I’m me working for the government.
0:16:07 I’m like, I should be fine.
0:16:08 I have plenty of seniority.
0:16:09 I’m doing really well.
0:16:11 They’ve always gotten raises.
0:16:14 And so I get up and I start walking down the hallway
0:16:15 to the boss’s office.
0:16:17 It feels like it’s a mile long
0:16:18 because I’m just thinking,
0:16:21 “What am I gonna do if I get laid off?”
0:16:24 And as I’m walking, my feet feel like lead bricks.
0:16:27 Like I just, it’s hard to take that next step.
0:16:29 And each time my heart started pumping a little more
0:16:31 because I started realizing,
0:16:33 “My goodness, I have four kids.
0:16:34 How am I gonna feed them?
0:16:36 How am I gonna put a roof over my head?”
0:16:40 And I get to where my boss’s office is, his door is closed.
0:16:42 I turn the corner and I see the secretary.
0:16:45 Sheepishly, she looks at me and kind of grins
0:16:47 and says, “Dustin, would you please have a seat?”
0:16:51 She knows exactly what’s gonna happen, what is happening.
0:16:51 I don’t.
0:16:53 And she’s trying to console me
0:16:54 just by her eyes and her smile.
0:16:55 She can’t tell me.
0:16:56 So I sit down.
0:16:57 And as I’m sitting there,
0:17:00 I’m feeling like a pit in my stomach thinking,
0:17:01 “Oh my goodness, this is probably it.”
0:17:03 And I started realizing or thinking,
0:17:06 “Am I a failure as a husband?
0:17:08 Am I a failure as a father?
0:17:10 Even as a man, am I a failure?”
0:17:11 And as I think more and more,
0:17:13 it’s literally like 30 seconds or a minute.
0:17:14 It’s just sitting there.
0:17:16 I start to sweat on my forehead.
0:17:18 My hands get all clammy
0:17:20 and then opens the door to my boss’s office.
0:17:23 And now walks a lady with a piece of paper.
0:17:25 She’s noticeably distraught, almost crying,
0:17:27 but she’s not really not saying anything,
0:17:28 holding this piece of paper and walking out
0:17:29 and then my boss says, “Dustin,
0:17:31 would you please come into my office?”
0:17:34 And so I get up and go in and lo and behold,
0:17:36 I get laid off.
0:17:37 And who gets laid off from the government?
0:17:38 Well, I did.
0:17:40 I absolutely get laid off from the government.
0:17:41 And so I take that piece of paper,
0:17:44 I go back to my office and I realize two things.
0:17:47 Well, number one, I realize that I need to provide
0:17:48 for my family.
0:17:51 And everything that I need to do from this point forward
0:17:53 is to be able to provide for my family,
0:17:54 my four kids, my wife.
0:17:58 And so I was blessed within maybe like a week later,
0:18:00 I was able to find another job in the county
0:18:01 because I had a good reputations.
0:18:03 So I got that, that was the number,
0:18:05 that my job was to find a job and I did that,
0:18:07 which is the first goal.
0:18:11 The second thing was I needed to never, ever
0:18:15 let this happen to me again outside forces,
0:18:18 causing me to not be able to provide for my family.
0:18:20 So what I decided to do was that point,
0:18:21 as I’m literally sitting in my desk
0:18:22 right after I got laid off,
0:18:26 the second thing I realized, I am now an investor.
0:18:27 Even though I had two or three properties,
0:18:29 I was just a side hustle.
0:18:31 I realized I am now an investor,
0:18:35 even though like 98% of my income comes from my side job,
0:18:37 it’s now my side job.
0:18:39 Even though when 98% of the money comes from it,
0:18:41 my value is in what I give myself.
0:18:43 And so what we usually say and what I would always say
0:18:45 if somebody says, “Hey, Dustin, what do you do?”
0:18:47 Basically, what do you put value in?
0:18:49 I would always say, I work for the county government,
0:18:51 doing IT work of the county government.
0:18:53 No longer did I ever say that after that.
0:18:56 I said, “I am an investor in real estate rental properties.”
0:19:00 So from there, I worked every single penny
0:19:01 into another property.
0:19:03 I was frugal.
0:19:04 We only took one vacation a year,
0:19:06 which was driving from California to Arizona
0:19:07 to see the in-laws for Christmas.
0:19:09 That was the only vacation we didn’t eat out.
0:19:14 And so in making that transition, this was my goal.
0:19:17 I said, “No longer am I ever gonna let this happen to me.”
0:19:19 And so I strove every single day,
0:19:21 every single week to get that next property
0:19:23 and that next property and the next property.
0:19:26 So to actually taking that leap, honestly,
0:19:27 it was a little hard to leave that W2,
0:19:31 a lot of hard to leave that stable W2 job once I had it.
0:19:34 But once I realized I am losing money here,
0:19:36 my value is so much more than this.
0:19:38 And I’ll be honest, now that I quit my job,
0:19:42 it was so amazing to see how much more money
0:19:43 I can make when I work for myself.
0:19:46 So for everybody listening, that’s my processes.
0:19:49 I had to change my value in myself.
0:19:51 No longer am I working for the government.
0:19:54 No, I’m an investor with a side job.
0:19:56 Same thing with you, you’re a side hustle.
0:19:57 Whatever your side hustle is,
0:19:58 if you wanna turn that into your job
0:20:00 and you wanna take that leap,
0:20:03 literally change your vision and your value of yourself.
0:20:05 And that’s what got me to where I am today.
0:20:07 – Yeah, this is like the identity habit.
0:20:09 This is a really powerful thing.
0:20:12 That subtle shift from I’m a worker first
0:20:13 to I’m an investor first.
0:20:15 So I appreciate you sharing that.
0:20:18 Again, that’s from episode 387.
0:20:20 Now, to be fair, for every Dustin,
0:20:22 for every evangelist for real estate,
0:20:25 there’s at least an equal number of burnt out landlords
0:20:28 who buy into the leverage and tax advantages
0:20:29 and cash flow of real estate
0:20:32 only to get chewed up and spit out along the way.
0:20:35 No businesses without risk and headaches in real estate
0:20:39 is one that often gets oversimplified and oversold.
0:20:40 It can definitely work.
0:20:42 It can be a great inflation hedge, great tax shelter,
0:20:45 but it is real world inventory
0:20:46 with humans involved.
0:20:49 It’s a model that I got really excited about in college,
0:20:51 even bought my first rental property,
0:20:54 but perhaps didn’t have the intestinal fortitude
0:20:56 to stick it out over the long run.
0:20:58 And that’s one reason that I have shied away
0:21:01 from direct investment in recent years,
0:21:04 instead relying on alternatives like Fundrise
0:21:06 where you can begin adding some real estate
0:21:08 to your portfolio for as little as $10.
0:21:13 I’m an affiliate of an investor in Fundrise since 2015.
0:21:15 Their model appealed to me as a way to benefit
0:21:18 from real estate in a way that’s diversified,
0:21:19 that’s totally hands-off.
0:21:22 It does not come with the leverage benefits,
0:21:23 at least directly, right?
0:21:25 You know, $10 in is $10 in,
0:21:28 but this is one that has appealed to me.
0:21:29 Again, real estate, it’s a long-term game.
0:21:31 So it might take eight to 10 years,
0:21:32 like in Dustin’s case,
0:21:34 to build up that portfolio to the point
0:21:36 where it is exceeding your expenses
0:21:37 and helping you escape the rat race.
0:21:39 A friend of mine put it this way,
0:21:42 like with traditional savings and investments
0:21:43 done right and done well
0:21:47 with a reasonably high personal profitability margin,
0:21:50 it might take 15, 20 years to reach your fire number,
0:21:52 which would still mean retiring
0:21:55 or achieving financial independence way earlier than most,
0:21:58 like in your early to mid ’40s, which is fantastic,
0:21:59 but with real estate,
0:22:02 it might take eight to 10 years of concerted effort
0:22:04 buying a house every year or two,
0:22:06 stacking leverage, stacking cash flow.
0:22:10 And with our third and final rat race escape option,
0:22:11 it might take three to five years.
0:22:13 And that’s entrepreneurship.
0:22:15 The third way to get out of the rat race
0:22:17 is to build your own business.
0:22:19 If you look at the Forbes 400 list
0:22:21 of the richest people in the country,
0:22:23 one thing should stand out to you.
0:22:26 Most of them built their wealth through entrepreneurship.
0:22:29 And even if you have no aspirations to build
0:22:32 the next Amazon or Apple or Tesla or Facebook,
0:22:35 like I don’t have those aspirations either,
0:22:38 but building a business is a realistic way
0:22:40 to break out of the nine to five grind.
0:22:43 That’s how I was able to walk away from corporate America
0:22:45 years before starting Side Hustle Nation.
0:22:48 Entrepreneurship has helped probably thousands of friends,
0:22:50 Side Hustle Show listeners,
0:22:54 Side Hustle Nation readers do the same at this point.
0:22:58 So how entrepreneurship works to escape the rat race
0:23:00 is pretty simple.
0:23:01 We tend to overcomplicate it,
0:23:02 but I’m gonna try and break it down here.
0:23:05 So a business is simply a system
0:23:07 that solves a problem in exchange for money.
0:23:10 It’s a problem solving machine.
0:23:13 And the good news is we’re all natural born problem solvers.
0:23:15 It’s what we do all day every day.
0:23:18 That means to come up with a business idea,
0:23:20 what you really need to come up with is a problem.
0:23:22 So you can think of what frustrates you,
0:23:25 what headaches or challenges that you’ve overcome,
0:23:27 what other people complain to you about,
0:23:29 because on the other side of those problems,
0:23:31 there might be a business idea.
0:23:34 Now the solution is usually gonna take one of three forms.
0:23:37 First, a service that makes that problem go away
0:23:39 in the example of a dirty house.
0:23:41 You can hire a cleaning service.
0:23:44 Number two, a product that makes that problem go away
0:23:45 if you got a dirty house.
0:23:48 So you can go buy cleaning supplies and cleaning products.
0:23:50 And number three is content
0:23:51 that makes that problem go away.
0:23:53 Got a dirty house so you can watch YouTube videos
0:23:56 on how to organize and optimize your space, right?
0:23:58 And when the money from your solution
0:23:59 starts to exceed your living expenses,
0:24:02 that’s when you say goodbye to the rat race.
0:24:05 I break down each of these three business models in detail
0:24:06 with lots of examples in my book,
0:24:08 The Side Hustle, how to turn your spare time
0:24:10 into $1,000 a month or more.
0:24:11 It’s free on Kindle.
0:24:12 I’ll link it up in the show notes.
0:24:14 It is due for a refresh or an update,
0:24:16 which is on my to-do list for the year.
0:24:18 And you’ll also find lots of side hustle ideas
0:24:20 throughout the archives for this show.
0:24:23 I did an episode earlier this month
0:24:26 on seven different idea generating frameworks.
0:24:27 If you might find that helpful
0:24:29 if you’re in the idea seeking phase,
0:24:32 that is episode 650 in your archives.
0:24:34 So what’s so great about entrepreneurship?
0:24:37 Building a business is unique of these three paths
0:24:40 in that your primary investment
0:24:41 is probably gonna be sweat equity.
0:24:43 These days, you can get an enterprise off the ground
0:24:45 for a very low startup cost.
0:24:49 And thinking back to my own 15, 20 years here,
0:24:52 just about everything I’ve started costs less than 500 bucks,
0:24:56 at least for that initial validation and testing phase.
0:24:59 On top of that, starting a business is a way to work
0:25:00 on something that you care about.
0:25:03 It’s bringing an idea into the world
0:25:05 that’s exciting and rewarding
0:25:10 in a way that collecting stock dividend payments just isn’t.
0:25:13 And in contrast to the stock market or real estate market,
0:25:15 you’ve got considerably more control
0:25:18 over the succession failure of a business that you own
0:25:20 and the speed at which that can happen.
0:25:23 Plus, if you intentionally build something with scale,
0:25:26 you’ll find entrepreneurship to be pretty time leveraged.
0:25:28 By that, I mean your earning power
0:25:31 or your effective hourly rate improves
0:25:32 as the business grows.
0:25:35 For example, Becky Beach put a lot of time,
0:25:37 six years into her online business
0:25:39 before getting up the nerve to quit her day job,
0:25:42 but she built it intentionally with that leverage in mind.
0:25:45 – I started getting 250,000 pages a month
0:25:47 and lots of traffic to my printables
0:25:49 and my sales phones were doing so well
0:25:52 I was getting like up like 20,000 at the time.
0:25:55 So I decided to quit my job and that was two years ago.
0:25:57 Like it was hard at first because like I was living in fear,
0:25:59 I didn’t think I could do it.
0:26:01 You know, I thought my business would just end the next day
0:26:03 or something if I quit.
0:26:05 But I just went all in and told my boss,
0:26:06 hey, I’m gonna be doing my own thing right now
0:26:07 and I need to like be quit.
0:26:09 And at first he was like, oh, don’t quit.
0:26:09 You know, it’s not a good idea.
0:26:11 I don’t think that’s smart.
0:26:13 So then I just went ahead and did it anyway.
0:26:16 – And I haven’t looked back since.
0:26:18 So that’s very exciting and it really cool
0:26:20 to build something up to that point.
0:26:23 We’re able to have that opportunity,
0:26:24 to have that flexibility and say,
0:26:27 look, I’ve got this other thing that’s working.
0:26:28 I don’t need this job.
0:26:30 My role was five bad meetings or something,
0:26:32 five bad days at work until I’m out of here,
0:26:33 something like that.
0:26:35 So I think that makes a ton of sense.
0:26:39 So mombeach.com kind of plays in the mom blog space,
0:26:40 the personal finance space,
0:26:43 and talk to me about what’s ringing the cash register
0:26:46 in terms of the digital products you mentioned,
0:26:48 the printables, what’s going on over there
0:26:50 in terms of how the site is earning revenue.
0:26:53 – The first I was relying on ad income and affiliates alone.
0:26:56 But when I started also making digital products,
0:26:59 it just exploded and since making them with AI,
0:27:00 it’s even went further
0:27:02 ’cause I’m able to crank out even more.
0:27:04 The digital products are just doing so well.
0:27:06 Like people will just visit my blog out of the blue,
0:27:07 like I don’t even know them really.
0:27:08 They just come in, they’re just like,
0:27:10 they’re just internet randos.
0:27:12 They come and purchase and I have all these sales funnels
0:27:14 set up like freebie opt-ins
0:27:15 where they sign up with their email.
0:27:17 They’re redirected to a sales page
0:27:19 that leads to my Shopify store.
0:27:20 – Okay, that’s interesting.
0:27:22 I have always thought of Shopify
0:27:24 as a physical product, e-commerce platform,
0:27:27 but you can use it for digital products as well.
0:27:30 So that’s the visitor flow through SEO,
0:27:32 through Pinterest, they come to your site,
0:27:34 download some freebie and then the digital products
0:27:38 are largely like an email-based upsell after the fact.
0:27:40 – They are ’cause I get quite a lot of traffic
0:27:42 and they come in, they sign up to my freebies
0:27:44 and the freebies are like free printables.
0:27:45 Like I have a budgeting planner
0:27:47 and I got a home planner for people
0:27:50 to organize their homes like specifically moms.
0:27:52 And I just get like so many leads
0:27:54 like every single day from these freebies.
0:27:56 And then they’re directed to a sales page
0:27:59 ’cause in ConvertKit you can actually make them
0:28:01 go to a sales page after they sign up to the email.
0:28:03 And I just put the sales page there
0:28:05 and then they buy a product off my Shopify store
0:28:07 ’cause you can actually put your cart
0:28:09 in your Shopify store right on the sales page
0:28:11 so they can click a link and get to the cart.
0:28:12 – Okay, okay.
0:28:14 So give me an example of like,
0:28:17 let’s talk about this budgeting planner, for example.
0:28:18 Talk to me about top of the funnels.
0:28:20 How does somebody discover that?
0:28:23 Is this like ranking in Google for those types of terms?
0:28:25 – Yes, I make user-specific content
0:28:27 people are searching for that solves problems.
0:28:31 Say like a saving money post or a money-making post
0:28:33 and people are searching for these problems on Google
0:28:36 and I use long-tail keywords.
0:28:38 And then I create the piece of content.
0:28:40 I’ve also been utilizing chat GPT lately
0:28:41 to help me create content.
0:28:44 Like I’ll use it to make like a blog outline.
0:28:47 It makes it so much faster to create content now.
0:28:49 – So I’m trying to find an example of one of those posts
0:28:50 but how to save money.
0:28:53 And here’s a list of ideas on how to solve this problem.
0:28:55 And by the way, if you’re trying to save money
0:28:57 you probably need this budgeting planner.
0:28:58 Here’s my free template.
0:29:01 And then after somebody puts in their email for that,
0:29:04 boom, sales page for something more advanced
0:29:06 or what’s on the sales page or what’s the digital product?
0:29:08 – Well, for instance, one of my posts that are new
0:29:11 are 30-day money-saving challenge.
0:29:13 And then that post have the budgeting planner
0:29:15 and then when they subscribe to the planner
0:29:16 they get it sent to their email
0:29:20 and they’re also directed to a budgeting spreadsheet.
0:29:21 – The spreadsheet is for purchase.
0:29:23 – Yes, like I’ll have the spreadsheet for purchase.
0:29:26 I also sell spreadsheets in my Shopify store as well.
0:29:28 – You can learn more about Becky and her business
0:29:30 in episode 582.
0:29:33 But the idea is creating something once
0:29:34 that you can sell over and over again.
0:29:36 That’s the leverage that’s built
0:29:39 into a digital product business, a content business.
0:29:41 And of course there are other business models too
0:29:43 but with each of them I think it’s important
0:29:46 to think about how it might go one to many.
0:29:50 How you might be able to leverage your specific skills
0:29:51 and expertise to build systems
0:29:53 and serve lots of different customers.
0:29:55 One book I might recommend on this topic
0:29:58 is MJ DeMarco’s Millionaire Fastlane.
0:30:01 If you can get past all this talk about fancy cars
0:30:03 which didn’t really appeal to me at all,
0:30:05 the underlying foundations and ideas in the book
0:30:07 I think are really strong.
0:30:09 That’s Millionaire Fastlane.
0:30:10 With job security in question
0:30:15 and this shift towards a more on-demand freelance workforce
0:30:17 it’s hard for me to see the downsides
0:30:19 in learning an entrepreneurial skill set
0:30:22 but still the fact remains that half of small businesses
0:30:24 fail in the first five years.
0:30:26 For that reason, it’s important to start small,
0:30:28 to minimize your expenses
0:30:31 and to grow at a pace you’re comfortable with.
0:30:34 And if that failure happens to you, if you’re in that 50%
0:30:37 you can dust yourself off and start again.
0:30:40 Building a business can be labor intensive
0:30:42 and that’s why many entrepreneurs find themselves
0:30:44 in the trap of working in the business
0:30:45 rather than on it.
0:30:48 They feel like, well, I just built myself a job
0:30:51 and only this one has an even more demanding boss
0:30:53 that’s even harder to walk away from.
0:30:55 So that’s the question that you have to ask,
0:30:56 what if this works?
0:30:58 If the business I’m starting works,
0:31:00 well, what does success look like?
0:31:03 And maybe you can find somebody who’s walked that path
0:31:05 there three to five years ahead of you.
0:31:07 Well, what does their day-to-day look like?
0:31:08 Do they have the income that they desire?
0:31:11 Do they have some freedom and flexibility in their life?
0:31:14 Or are they still stuck working 60 hour weeks
0:31:16 or they’re super stressed all the time?
0:31:17 What’s the end game?
0:31:18 And is that gonna be a win from you?
0:31:20 If you build with intention from the start,
0:31:22 I think it’s easier over the long run.
0:31:25 Certain models are faster and easier
0:31:26 to see initial results with,
0:31:29 but can be harder to scale and remove yourself
0:31:31 from delivery over time.
0:31:34 I think freelancing is probably the prime example of this,
0:31:35 freelancing your skills.
0:31:37 Totally viable, side hustle,
0:31:40 one that I recommend all the time, but it can be tough.
0:31:43 Not impossible, but hard to get out of trading time for money
0:31:47 if clients are used to hiring your special skills
0:31:48 and expertise.
0:31:50 Again, hard to get out of, but not impossible
0:31:52 if that’s an ultimate goal of yours.
0:31:54 Some people just love doing the work and that’s totally fine.
0:31:56 So who is this third path best for?
0:31:59 Who is the entrepreneurship path best for?
0:32:02 I believe it is the most realistic rat race escape path
0:32:05 for most people, but especially for those
0:32:08 who don’t have the quote unquote golden handcuffs
0:32:11 of a great paying job that’s harder to walk away from
0:32:14 and might be more apt to take path number one,
0:32:17 the traditional saving and investment path.
0:32:18 People who aren’t afraid of failure,
0:32:19 you’re probably gonna get punched in the face
0:32:21 along the way in this entrepreneurship path
0:32:26 and or a little impatient, definitely the fastest path
0:32:28 if it works.
0:32:30 And so it’s like, well, that’s where it combines this.
0:32:33 Well, I’m not afraid of failure and I’m impatient.
0:32:34 I don’t wanna wait 20 years
0:32:37 to do this traditional savings path.
0:32:38 So entrepreneurship appealed to me
0:32:40 ’cause I couldn’t fathom the reality
0:32:43 of working a corporate job for the next 30 years.
0:32:45 There had to be a better way.
0:32:48 And there was and I think there is for you too.
0:32:51 And of course, if the entrepreneurship path is for you,
0:32:53 there are hundreds of side hustle show episodes
0:32:54 to choose from.
0:32:55 You can pretty much scroll through
0:32:58 and pick the ones that sound most interesting to you.
0:33:00 They’re all great.
0:33:02 I learned so much from each and every guest.
0:33:03 If there’s a specific topic
0:33:05 that you’d like me to cover in the future,
0:33:07 be sure to reach out and let me know.
0:33:10 Nick at sidehustlenation.com is my direct email.
0:33:12 And if you’re not sure where to start,
0:33:14 I encourage you to hit up hustle.show.
0:33:16 This is where you can answer a few short,
0:33:17 multiple choice questions.
0:33:18 You can do it on your phone
0:33:21 and the system will build you a personalized playlist
0:33:23 based on where you’re at, what you’re interested in,
0:33:24 where you wanna go.
0:33:25 Again, hustle.show
0:33:29 for your custom curated side hustle show playlist.
0:33:30 Big thanks to our sponsors
0:33:32 for helping make this content free for everyone.
0:33:35 As always, you can hit up sidehustlenation.com/deals
0:33:38 for all the latest offers from our sponsors in one place.
0:33:40 Thank you for supporting the advertisers
0:33:41 that support the show.
0:33:43 That is it for me.
0:33:45 Thank you so much for tuning in.
0:33:46 If you’re finding value in the show,
0:33:48 the greatest compliment is to share with a friend,
0:33:51 to fire off that text message with your fellow friend
0:33:52 who wants to get out of the rat race
0:33:53 and help spread the word.
0:33:55 Until next time, let’s go out there
0:33:56 and make something happen
0:33:58 and I’ll catch you in the next edition
0:33:59 of the Side Hustle Show.

0:00:04 $150,000 renting out dresses.
0:00:06 What’s up, what’s up, Nikola for here.
0:00:07 Welcome to The Side Hustle Show
0:00:10 because your nine to five may make you a living
0:00:12 if your five to nine makes you alive.
0:00:13 And here’s a side hustle
0:00:16 that earned just 160 bucks in its first month.
0:00:19 I came from just two customers, but it was enough.
0:00:22 It was enough traction to know that she was onto something.
0:00:24 Since then, my guest has scaled to
0:00:28 over 200 different garments, bringing in $150,000
0:00:30 in rental income last year.
0:00:34 She is @theprofitcollective on Instagram, summerfisher.
0:00:36 Welcome to The Side Hustle Show.
0:00:38 – Thank you, thanks for having me.
0:00:39 – You bet, stick around in this one.
0:00:41 We’re gonna learn how this business
0:00:43 and the math behind it works.
0:00:45 The delivery and logistics piece
0:00:48 behind moving clothing all around the place
0:00:50 and some of the marketing best practices
0:00:52 that you can follow along
0:00:53 if you wanna start something similar.
0:00:56 Now, you know, I love a fun rental business,
0:00:58 but dresses certainly aren’t the only thing
0:01:00 that you can rent out for a profit,
0:01:01 which is why I’ve put together a list
0:01:03 of 25 other unconventional things
0:01:05 that you can make money renting out
0:01:08 that is yours free to download at the show notes
0:01:09 for this episode.
0:01:11 Just follow the link in the episode description
0:01:14 and it’ll get you right over there.
0:01:16 Now, some of my understanding is you started
0:01:20 as a more traditional reseller, like go to the thrift shop,
0:01:23 find the brand name designer type of stuff
0:01:28 that you think is undervalued and flip it by low sell high.
0:01:28 Simple.
0:01:33 So what inspired the shift to the rental business?
0:01:34 – Well, I’m actually still reselling
0:01:36 and it is actually probably still a bigger part
0:01:37 of my business.
0:01:38 – Oh, okay.
0:01:40 – Yeah, so I saw an opportunity for the renting.
0:01:44 So what happened is I’ve had a model agency for 15 years.
0:01:46 That started as another side hustle,
0:01:47 which is a story for another day.
0:01:50 And I was in my agency one day
0:01:53 and a girl came in, one of the models came in
0:01:55 and said she was starting a dress rental business.
0:01:56 And I was like, what’s that?
0:01:57 I didn’t understand.
0:01:58 I was like, what are you talking about?
0:02:01 She’s like, oh yeah, we just put some dresses together.
0:02:04 My friend and I and we’re going to rent them online.
0:02:05 And I thought, okay.
0:02:07 And I just thought they were going to rent them
0:02:11 on Facebook marketplace or D-pop or something like that.
0:02:15 And I looked into it and I realized there’s this whole
0:02:17 industry around dress rentals.
0:02:19 And I thought, oh, I want to try this.
0:02:23 And I was already kind of flipping dresses on the side
0:02:26 and had built a whole business around that as well.
0:02:30 And so I decided I just put up all the dresses I had.
0:02:32 Actually, first I put up two dresses
0:02:36 and that was in October of 2022.
0:02:40 And then one day I was just sitting in my car
0:02:43 at my daughter’s cheer practice and one of them rented
0:02:45 and I got a notification that it had rented.
0:02:47 And I was like, oh my God, I just rented a dress.
0:02:49 But like now what do I do?
0:02:50 I didn’t really understand it.
0:02:52 And I just kind of went all in.
0:02:55 So I kind of worked it out as I went along.
0:02:58 And then I ended up putting all the dresses up then
0:02:59 that I had been flipping.
0:03:01 And it kind of grew from there.
0:03:04 And then I started buying dresses specifically to rent.
0:03:05 So yeah.
0:03:06 – Okay.
0:03:09 I love this, side hustles on side hustles, right?
0:03:10 What am I already doing?
0:03:14 How could I add a new revenue stream to this?
0:03:15 And this is really interesting.
0:03:18 It’s like, well, I’ll have it listed up for sale.
0:03:20 And in the meantime, until it sells,
0:03:22 hey, maybe I can make some revenue.
0:03:24 I can recoup some of that cost on the rental side.
0:03:26 I think that’s really interesting.
0:03:26 – Yeah, exactly.
0:03:29 It’s like a double-dip profit strategy is what I call it.
0:03:33 So basically, you’re making the money from flipping the item.
0:03:36 But in between, you’re also making the money from renting it.
0:03:37 – What happens when somebody wants to buy it
0:03:40 and you’re like, well, I can’t ship it out just yet.
0:03:41 I need to wait for it to get back.
0:03:43 – When it rents, I do take it off
0:03:45 from being available for sale, yeah.
0:03:46 – Oh, okay.
0:03:48 So those first couple, you get that notification.
0:03:51 Hey, this is somebody wanted to rent this thing.
0:03:55 There was a marketplace that had some existing demand
0:03:58 of renters versus you trying to build an audience,
0:04:00 build a following, build a two-sided marketplace.
0:04:02 So where it’s like, hey, it rent from me.
0:04:03 It’s like, no, no, no.
0:04:05 There’s already some existing validation and demand for it.
0:04:06 – Yes, definitely.
0:04:08 And yeah, there’s online sites
0:04:11 where you can rent dresses basically.
0:04:13 So they’re different in every country.
0:04:16 So for us in Australia, there’s a site called The Vault.
0:04:19 A big one in the US and the UK is Byrotation.
0:04:22 So there’s several of these types of websites
0:04:23 and they’re kind of peer-to-peer lending.
0:04:26 So basically you can put up your own wardrobe
0:04:28 or like I do, run it as a business
0:04:30 and rent to other people.
0:04:33 – There was one like bag borrower steal.
0:04:34 Is that one?
0:04:35 Or was that just like for buying handbags?
0:04:37 I don’t know if it was a rental service too.
0:04:39 I’m trying to think of like the left.
0:04:41 – You can rent bags on these sites as well.
0:04:43 – Okay, do you play around in that space or strictly dresses?
0:04:46 – No, I don’t really because their bags
0:04:47 are really expensive to buy.
0:04:50 And I just, because I self-insure all my items,
0:04:53 I just don’t want to play with that.
0:04:54 – Right, right, right.
0:04:58 What’s a sweet spot for cost of acquisition,
0:05:01 like brand style, and there’s a lot of different factors
0:05:04 that might must go into the purchase side of it
0:05:07 to decide, well, what might there be demand for?
0:05:08 – It’s quite nuanced.
0:05:12 So it will depend on, it’s like the intersection
0:05:16 of brand, style, size, all these things
0:05:19 that kind of come together to get a dress that’s in demand.
0:05:23 I would say that as opposed to when I’m reselling,
0:05:26 when I’m renting, it does need to be a fairly recent style,
0:05:29 like within the last 18 months, but definitely,
0:05:32 but usually even within the last six months
0:05:35 is that will be like the most popular styles.
0:05:37 Whereas when I’m reselling, that’s not as relevant.
0:05:38 – Okay.
0:05:40 – And then a lot of it will be like,
0:05:42 did a celebrity wear it?
0:05:45 Is it the color of that season?
0:05:47 You know, is it winter or summer?
0:05:49 I rent a lot to wedding guests.
0:05:52 So a lot of people who are going to weddings
0:05:54 and just are going to wear that item once.
0:05:57 So there’s a lot of that with the sizing.
0:05:58 You do have to look at the market.
0:06:01 So a lot of girls in their early twenties
0:06:02 will get into dress rentals
0:06:05 and they will tend to rent those smaller sizes.
0:06:09 And I’ve found pretty good success with renting
0:06:12 like slightly like mid sizes, I guess it would be called.
0:06:15 So yeah, just slightly larger, not the teeny tiny sizes.
0:06:17 So yeah, but it does depend on the brand too,
0:06:19 because some of those brands do do better
0:06:20 in the really small sizes.
0:06:23 – And you’re still trying to source this stuff secondhand
0:06:26 or are you now comfortable?
0:06:27 So I could buy it off the rack.
0:06:30 I could buy it new to rent.
0:06:32 And then you’re kind of like a car rental business,
0:06:33 like I’m going to rent it out for a year
0:06:34 and then I’m going to resell it.
0:06:38 – Yeah, I would say that mostly I buy at retail now,
0:06:41 but I do use all the strategies to try and get
0:06:43 like a percentage off when I buy it.
0:06:45 So that when I, at the end of the rental,
0:06:50 when I go to flip it, I’m actually making money both ways.
0:06:53 So I’m getting 20% off retail.
0:06:55 I’m renting it, you know, five, 10 times.
0:06:57 And then I’m actually selling it still
0:06:59 for more than I paid for it, even though it’s pre-loved
0:07:03 because it’s such a new and hot and in demand item.
0:07:05 And I’m also using things like the currency arbitrage
0:07:08 and the geographical arbitrage of being in Australia
0:07:11 where I can get, you know, something like a Zimmerman dress
0:07:14 a lot cheaper and sell it to someone in the U.S.
0:07:16 – Yeah, you’re going to be throwing out brand names
0:07:16 that go where?
0:07:18 (laughing)
0:07:19 Like, all right, I’ll take your word for it.
0:07:21 But if you’re in that space, like,
0:07:24 if you know what is hot, what is in style,
0:07:27 then yeah, you can absolutely play around with that.
0:07:29 And so for the rental side is,
0:07:31 and you imagine it’s got to be local,
0:07:33 like you’re not going to ship something halfway
0:07:34 around the world for a rental, are you?
0:07:37 – So the majority of my reselling is actually like,
0:07:40 I sell a lot to the U.S. and the UK
0:07:41 and probably more than Australia.
0:07:44 But with the renting it is, yeah, only in Australia.
0:07:47 So I do it pretty much, all of it is by post.
0:07:50 So I do allow pickups sometimes.
0:07:53 I don’t love people coming to my house
0:07:54 and picking up the items,
0:07:56 but sometimes if it’s a bit slow,
0:07:57 I’ll let people come and pick it up.
0:08:00 But you get the problem that if they will pick it up,
0:08:01 they will be like, oh, what else have you got?
0:08:04 You know, can I try it on and all this type of thing?
0:08:06 And yeah, I don’t like that.
0:08:08 – I’m like, no, no, no, this is the one you ordered.
0:08:09 Here you go.
0:08:11 So inspired to do it.
0:08:13 A model at the modeling agency was like,
0:08:14 hey, I’m getting into this.
0:08:15 You’re like, well, you know,
0:08:17 there might be something else here.
0:08:20 There was some existing, you know, proof of concept, right?
0:08:22 These marketplaces already existed.
0:08:24 And you had the confidence to say,
0:08:27 well, I can add my own listings to this.
0:08:30 Was there a point of, you know, market saturation
0:08:33 if, you know, 10 providers all have the same thing
0:08:34 and like on that busy summer,
0:08:36 I guess it’s so fluid,
0:08:39 like the busy summers, you know, wedding season,
0:08:41 where, you know, different people want different styles
0:08:43 and different sizes at the time.
0:08:45 It’s hard to imagine it being like so overstocked,
0:08:46 overcrowded.
0:08:48 – Yeah, I think that it’s like,
0:08:50 even if 20 people have the same dress,
0:08:54 there could be easily 20 people that want to rent that dress,
0:08:56 especially like if it’s very in demand.
0:08:58 And you just got to do your research
0:09:00 when you’re choosing what dresses you want to rent
0:09:02 because you don’t want to pick a size
0:09:05 that like everyone else is renting that size.
0:09:08 Usually you can pick, find a size that, you know,
0:09:09 only one or two people have
0:09:13 and then just go by a size, that size for yourself.
0:09:14 – Got it.
0:09:16 So it’s okay to have the same style that other people have,
0:09:20 but maybe try and fill in the gaps on some sizes
0:09:22 that you don’t find readily available.
0:09:23 – Or you want to be first to market.
0:09:26 Like you want to be the first one to have it,
0:09:29 get it listed, then you’ll get all the bookings
0:09:30 and you’ll get bookings months in advance.
0:09:31 So it’ll be booked out
0:09:33 before anyone can get their item up.
0:09:36 – Are there any demand tools, like, you know,
0:09:38 number of customer reviews
0:09:40 or do these platforms show you like,
0:09:43 oh, this was, you know, rented out eight times
0:09:45 in the last two months, like something like that to say,
0:09:49 well, okay, clearly I should go buy one of those.
0:09:51 – Yeah, there is, in Australia, there is a site
0:09:53 which I don’t rent on for other reasons,
0:09:56 but it does do those little pop-ups that says,
0:09:57 oh, this dress was just rented.
0:10:01 So you can definitely use that to see what’s being rented,
0:10:03 but it’s not like reselling where on eBay,
0:10:05 you can like look at recent solds
0:10:07 or you can use a product research tool to look up
0:10:10 what’s selling, there’s nothing like that.
0:10:14 Yeah, there’s no, you’ve really, it’s quite like laborious.
0:10:16 You’ve got to go through other people’s calendars
0:10:18 and see what bookings they’ve got
0:10:19 to see how in demand it is.
0:10:23 So yeah, at first you’ve got to do quite a bit of research.
0:10:25 – Got it, and then you can learn the into now.
0:10:27 It’s like any business, once you’re in it,
0:10:29 you can’t see it any other way.
0:10:30 – Definitely.
0:10:32 – But from the outside, okay, I like this little trick
0:10:34 of like, oh, okay, it’s booked up the next three weekends.
0:10:35 It must be in demand.
0:10:37 A friend of ours used to do this for a wedding,
0:10:40 and like you said, like mid-late 20s,
0:10:42 like peak wedding attendance season,
0:10:45 we’re sick of wearing the same thing over and over again,
0:10:46 so she’d try something new.
0:10:48 And like, how much does it cost to rent a dress these days?
0:10:51 – The absolute least amount would be $80,
0:10:52 but I have like four dresses
0:10:55 that are about two and a half grand retail each,
0:10:58 and I rent those for 350 per rental.
0:11:00 And like, you have to pull my jaw off the floor,
0:11:03 like 2,500 for like, I’ve heard of wedding dresses,
0:11:07 yes, costing that much, but just like a regular dress.
0:11:08 This shows you how much I know about fashion.
0:11:10 – It’s really beautiful, Nick.
0:11:12 It’s really beautiful dress.
0:11:13 – I’m sure it is.
0:11:15 The last article of clothing that I rented
0:11:17 was a tuxedo for senior prom.
0:11:20 Like, and it was, I don’t even remember how much it was.
0:11:21 It was probably 80 bucks, but yeah, okay.
0:11:25 So obviously the higher retail price,
0:11:28 the more you can command on the rental side, absolutely.
0:11:33 – And that’s helpful to have a range of $80 to $350 per rental.
0:11:39 Is there a rule, like a percentage of the retail price
0:11:40 or something like that that you go by?
0:11:43 – Yeah, I think like generally you want to get your money back
0:11:45 within three to four rentals,
0:11:48 but if I had have paid full price for like that dress,
0:11:49 it’s worth two and a half thousand dollars.
0:11:51 Obviously I wouldn’t have made that back in four rentals,
0:11:55 but there’s a way to find usually 10, 20% off at least
0:11:57 on full retail when you’re buying something.
0:12:00 So once you’ve done that or you buy it secondhand,
0:12:02 then usually you can get your money back.
0:12:04 Sometimes I’ll get my money back with one rental.
0:12:05 If I’m buying it pre-love,
0:12:08 you know, I might see it pop up on eBay or Depop
0:12:10 and I’ll get my money back in one rental.
0:12:11 – Gotcha.
0:12:14 Do you have like brand name alerts that pin you when,
0:12:17 oh, such and such inventory just got listed.
0:12:18 I need to go and check it out.
0:12:21 – Well, because I’m already reselling as well
0:12:23 and that’s quite a big income stream for me.
0:12:25 I’m sourcing every day, so.
0:12:27 – Constantly on the lookout.
0:12:29 – I’m there like when it comes up, I’m ready.
0:12:30 So yeah, for sure.
0:12:34 But like I do have like saved searches that I look through.
0:12:35 Yeah.
0:12:36 – And I suppose you could just start with,
0:12:39 if you have some existing dress inventory,
0:12:41 I’m thinking of like my wife’s classic addresses in there.
0:12:43 She hadn’t worn in years.
0:12:44 – Yeah.
0:12:45 – And who knows, like, I don’t know.
0:12:47 I have no concept of what the brands are,
0:12:49 but maybe it’s a timeless style
0:12:50 that people would be searching for.
0:12:54 Like is that branded keyword type of search,
0:12:57 like how important is that in your listing
0:12:58 on the marketplaces?
0:13:00 Like are people looking specifically for that brand
0:13:02 or could you describe it more as like a, you know,
0:13:06 a green A line, something, something strapless.
0:13:08 I don’t know, it’s just a keyword, keyword, keyword.
0:13:10 – Yeah, it’s heavily brand dependent.
0:13:12 People go on, they know what they want.
0:13:13 They know what dress they want.
0:13:16 Probably 80% of the time, maybe 90% of the time.
0:13:17 – Okay.
0:13:18 – You know, they’ve seen it come up
0:13:21 in the campaign photos or whatever.
0:13:23 Some celebrities worn it and influencers
0:13:24 put it on their Instagram.
0:13:26 They’re like, I want to wear that dress
0:13:27 and they go looking for it.
0:13:28 So, yeah.
0:13:29 – What brands do you like?
0:13:32 – For us in Australia, and actually a lot of these brands
0:13:35 kind of are the same ones as in the US or UK,
0:13:38 but like the Australian kind of based brands
0:13:41 are like Zimmerman, Age or Arge,
0:13:43 if you like to be fancy in that way.
0:13:46 Orishan is a big one for me.
0:13:49 Alame, Alame is probably the biggest brand that I rent.
0:13:51 It’s only been around a couple of years,
0:13:54 but it’s kind of in that style of Zimmerman as well.
0:13:57 So yeah, they’re the kind of brands, I guess.
0:13:58 – All right.
0:14:00 It’s all foreign to me, but it’s helpful to know.
0:14:02 I mean, you could go on,
0:14:03 I imagine any of these marketplaces
0:14:05 and see where the demand seems to be.
0:14:07 So that makes sense.
0:14:09 – More with Summer in just a moment,
0:14:12 including her rental marketplace listing best practices,
0:14:15 plus some of the logistical considerations
0:14:16 and things that can go wrong
0:14:19 when you’ve got this type of physical inventory business
0:14:20 right after this.
0:14:24 Creating really great retail experiences is tough,
0:14:27 especially if you’ve got multiple stores, teams of staff,
0:14:29 fulfillment centers, separate workflows,
0:14:30 it’s a lot to deal with.
0:14:32 But with Shopify point of sale,
0:14:35 you can do it all without complexity.
0:14:38 Shopify’s point of sale system is a unified command center
0:14:41 for your retail business, both online and in store.
0:14:44 One thing that’s really cool about Shopify POS
0:14:45 is you can keep customers coming back
0:14:48 with personalized experiences
0:14:50 and collect that all important first party data
0:14:53 to give your marketing teams a competitive edge,
0:14:55 even if that marketing team is just you.
0:14:57 Now how about some data to back that up?
0:15:00 Businesses on Shopify POS see real results,
0:15:03 including a 22% better total cost of ownership
0:15:08 and benefits equivalent to an 8.9% uplift in sales.
0:15:09 Want more?
0:15:12 Check out shopify.com/sidehustle.
0:15:13 That’s all lowercase
0:15:16 and learn how to create the best retail experiences
0:15:17 without complexity.
0:15:21 Again, that’s at shopify.com/sidehustle.
0:15:23 All right, it’s sponsor time.
0:15:24 Now I could read you a script
0:15:25 about Gusto’s payroll and benefits,
0:15:28 but instead I wanted to share some reviews and feedback
0:15:30 from real Gusto customers.
0:15:31 The first one says,
0:15:34 with Gusto, I think of payroll as a 30 second job.
0:15:37 The website is so friendly and a joy to use.
0:15:38 Now anything that makes payroll a joy,
0:15:40 you don’t hear that every day.
0:15:42 Amy from Utah says they do our medical,
0:15:44 dental, vision and life insurance.
0:15:46 It’s like going to the spa
0:15:47 and we’ve got great options and rates
0:15:49 even though we’re a super small team.
0:15:50 What about customer service?
0:15:53 Here’s what Amnit says about Gusto’s support team.
0:15:54 Whenever something comes up,
0:15:56 I reach out and literally 24 hours later,
0:15:58 they tell us what to do or assure us
0:16:00 that they’ve already handled it for us.
0:16:02 That’s what happens when you combine
0:16:04 smart technology and friendly humans.
0:16:05 And really that’s just a small sample
0:16:06 of the positive feedback
0:16:08 that Gusto has earned over the years.
0:16:11 Right now, side hustle show listeners get three months free
0:16:14 when you go to gusto.com/sidehustle.
0:16:17 Yes, that’s three months of payroll benefits admin
0:16:19 and more totally free.
0:16:22 Again, gusto.com/sidehustle.
0:16:26 Aside from the marketplace and maybe on the marketplace,
0:16:28 other listing best practices,
0:16:30 are you modeling the photos?
0:16:32 You’re tapping into people from the modeling agency
0:16:34 to like take these dress photos for you.
0:16:36 Like what goes into a good listing?
0:16:38 How am I going to stand out against everybody else
0:16:39 who’s already been on there?
0:16:41 Yeah, well, it’s really different to race-selling.
0:16:43 So with race-selling, you know,
0:16:47 I am trying to position an item to show its value
0:16:50 by using campaign photos where I can and stock photos
0:16:52 and then using certain photos
0:16:55 to like show that perceived value, I guess.
0:16:58 And with renting, it’s really no one uses their own photos.
0:16:59 They just use stock photos.
0:17:03 So it’s literally just screenshotting three stock photos
0:17:06 from the company’s website and putting it up.
0:17:08 There’s no modeling involved.
0:17:11 My modeling days are long gone at three kids.
0:17:14 So yeah, I’m not going to be modeling any of them close.
0:17:15 Fair enough.
0:17:18 You could probably get like customer pictures back
0:17:20 at some point, I don’t know, but like, that’s not important.
0:17:22 If you’re using Instagram as a rental platform,
0:17:24 which a lot, a lot of people do.
0:17:26 So a lot of people will just rent straight
0:17:28 off people’s Instagram profiles.
0:17:31 Then they will use a lot of like customer photos
0:17:32 and things like that for sure.
0:17:35 So this would be trying to create your own demand,
0:17:37 like build up an influencer profile.
0:17:39 And you know, hey, if you like my style,
0:17:40 you can actually rent this thing.
0:17:42 If you happen to be the same size as me, you can rent it.
0:17:44 No, they’re just rental companies.
0:17:47 So they just say like, you know, XYZ rentals.
0:17:50 And then they’ll go into maybe the Facebook groups online
0:17:52 and say, I’m renting these dresses
0:17:54 if anyone wants to come to my Instagram
0:17:56 and then the customers will just message them.
0:17:58 And then they just facilitate the transaction that way.
0:18:01 And so they’re not paying the rental platforms a commission.
0:18:03 What’s a typical commission fee?
0:18:07 I think it’s like 16.5% is what we pay on the vault.
0:18:10 I assume it’s similar on the other ones internationally.
0:18:13 Yeah, it’s not much for the level of demand
0:18:14 that they had to create the marketing
0:18:16 that they’re doing for you, the transaction,
0:18:18 they’re facilitating.
0:18:19 Yeah, they actually do the majority
0:18:21 of the customer service too.
0:18:23 So yeah, they have customer service people,
0:18:25 everything goes through customer service.
0:18:27 So it does take the burden off a little bit that way.
0:18:31 Is there a strategy in syndicating the listing?
0:18:33 Like if there are multiple platforms,
0:18:36 like, well, I might as well put it on Facebook marketplace
0:18:41 and offer up and we had eBay, like I’m gonna syndicate it.
0:18:43 Or is it like, no, no, no, I wanna focus all my energy
0:18:46 onto this one vault platform, for example.
0:18:48 Yeah, I was using a second platform a lot
0:18:52 when I first started and I did get to like 350 dresses
0:18:54 and I had them on two platforms and things.
0:18:56 I was trying to like not have crossover,
0:18:58 but there definitely was crossover.
0:19:00 And then so people were getting unhappy
0:19:02 because the dress wasn’t coming back in time
0:19:05 from one platform and it was just like getting really messy.
0:19:10 So I decided to ultimately just rent on one platform.
0:19:13 But if, I think if you had a small inventory,
0:19:14 you know, 50 dresses or something,
0:19:17 you could definitely probably manage that a lot more easily.
0:19:20 It was just, I had too many dresses to kind of,
0:19:21 yeah, keep track of everything.
0:19:23 – Yeah, well, there’s your next side hustle
0:19:25 is the inventory management software
0:19:27 for a grass rental.
0:19:28 – Oh my gosh. – Like a very niche software.
0:19:31 Like to manage the listings, like, oh, it got rented out.
0:19:33 I better take it down off of this other platform.
0:19:36 – Yeah, I did create like a notion, you know,
0:19:37 database type thing.
0:19:38 I didn’t have that going,
0:19:41 but I think there’s so much like human element involved.
0:19:42 It’s really hard.
0:19:43 Like if someone’s just like,
0:19:45 “Oh, I just forgot to post the dress back.”
0:19:46 And then you’re just like,
0:19:48 there’s like nothing you can really do about it.
0:19:49 You could charge them late fees,
0:19:52 but you know, you still don’t have the dress
0:19:53 and you need the dress.
0:19:54 – Yeah, yeah, I had that.
0:19:55 I promise that to the next customer.
0:19:57 – Yeah.
0:20:00 – And so there’s an element of logistical challenges.
0:20:02 Anytime you’re moving physical inventory around,
0:20:04 but what have you found here
0:20:06 in terms of sticking it in the mail
0:20:08 and making sure it doesn’t get damaged in transit
0:20:10 and you said self-insured.
0:20:12 So like if it shows up, somebody makes a claim,
0:20:17 like, oh, it was torn or it smelled bad or it didn’t fit.
0:20:19 Like there’s all sorts of things that could go wrong.
0:20:20 – Yeah, there is a lot of things that can go wrong,
0:20:24 especially I’ve noticed a lot more than reselling.
0:20:25 Like there is, yeah,
0:20:27 there’s more things that go wrong with the renting.
0:20:29 I’ve been pretty lucky with the post.
0:20:32 I think I’ve maybe had one thing go missing ever.
0:20:33 So that’s been good.
0:20:36 A lot of these platforms do offer insurance
0:20:41 and you pay $5, $10 per order to have that insurance.
0:20:43 And I did do that early on,
0:20:45 but I found that self-insuring was the way to go
0:20:49 because they make you jump through so many hoops
0:20:51 to claim on that insurance.
0:20:53 They want you to go to two separate dry cleaners
0:20:56 and get stat decks from those two separate dry cleaners.
0:20:58 And then they want you to go to a seamstress
0:21:00 and say, get the stat deck from them
0:21:01 to say that it can’t be fixed.
0:21:04 And then it’s like providing all this evidence
0:21:06 and it just is very time consuming
0:21:09 and it just wasn’t worth it in the end for me.
0:21:12 So I decided to just self-insure.
0:21:16 You get a lot of people who just don’t want to send it back.
0:21:17 They go, oh, but I’ll buy it from you.
0:21:19 And I’ll be like, no, it’s actually not for sale.
0:21:22 I’ve got like 10 rentals coming up on it.
0:21:23 So you can’t have it.
0:21:25 So you get a little bit of that.
0:21:27 – So what happens in that case?
0:21:28 Or what do you do?
0:21:31 I mean, eventually it’s like the late fees at the library,
0:21:34 where I can’t afford to return this book
0:21:36 ’cause I can’t afford to pay the late fee or something.
0:21:38 But at a certain point you just need it back.
0:21:40 – Yeah, well, I guess a lot of girls,
0:21:42 if they really, really want the dress,
0:21:45 they’ll just take the late fees up to the maximum amount
0:21:47 and then they get to keep the dress for like,
0:21:48 because a lot of these dresses
0:21:50 that people want are like completely sold out.
0:21:53 And I think that’s one of the biggest drivers
0:21:55 is that they would buy it, but they can’t.
0:21:57 So they have to rent it.
0:22:00 I did have one case, it was crazy.
0:22:02 I had this girl, it was,
0:22:04 and this was like in the first couple of months
0:22:06 when I started, she rented a dress from me
0:22:08 and she came and picked it up from my house.
0:22:10 And I just like have a hook on my front door.
0:22:12 So I put the dress in a garment bag
0:22:13 and they can just come pick it up.
0:22:16 And she came, picked it up and then four days later,
0:22:18 it was time to bring it back
0:22:20 and the dress didn’t come back.
0:22:22 And like the next day, you know, send her a message,
0:22:23 can you bring it back?
0:22:27 And she goes to me a bit and then I text her
0:22:29 and I’m like, can you bring the dress back?
0:22:32 And she’s said, oh, you know, oh yeah, I’m bring it back.
0:22:34 And then all these excuses started.
0:22:37 And then I got my dad’s terminally ill
0:22:38 and my car broke down
0:22:41 and like all these excuses day after day.
0:22:44 And then I was on a Facebook group one day
0:22:45 for one of the brands
0:22:47 and someone was saying, does anyone know this girl?
0:22:50 And it turns out it was like this whole scam
0:22:52 that she was doing to lots of renters.
0:22:55 And we all got together and tried to take it to the police.
0:22:58 And eventually this took like six months
0:23:00 of going to the police.
0:23:01 She did get charged
0:23:03 because she’d done it to so many people,
0:23:04 like more than 20 people.
0:23:06 – Wow. – But yeah, she said,
0:23:08 I’ll meet you at the police station
0:23:10 and give everyone their dresses back.
0:23:12 And then of course she never showed up.
0:23:14 It was like a whole thing.
0:23:15 So yeah. – Wow.
0:23:18 – There’s some crazies out there, I can tell you that.
0:23:20 – Yeah, anytime you’re dealing with the public,
0:23:23 you open yourself up to just, you know, random stuff.
0:23:25 You never probably would have considered
0:23:27 a couple of years ago, getting started.
0:23:29 But you’re like, oh, I can’t people just be decent
0:23:30 to each other.
0:23:31 I don’t know, bothers me.
0:23:34 But for the most part, send it off in the mail.
0:23:36 They send it back.
0:23:38 Is customer responsible for cleaning
0:23:39 or I’m not gonna introduce that wild card.
0:23:42 I’m gonna go clean it myself when it gets back.
0:23:43 – So the platforms like to say
0:23:45 that you have to dry clean everything,
0:23:47 but I learnt pretty fast
0:23:49 that that was gonna eat a lot into my profit margin.
0:23:53 So I probably dry clean about 20% of the clothes
0:23:55 because they can only be dry cleaned.
0:23:57 And that’s not by what’s on the tag
0:23:58 because most clothes will say
0:23:59 that they can only be dry cleaned.
0:24:01 But really there’s probably not that many
0:24:03 that actually have to be dry cleaned.
0:24:06 But that has come into my sourcing more and more now
0:24:08 is that I try to source items
0:24:10 that can just be put in the washing machine
0:24:11 and hung out to dry.
0:24:14 I don’t like to get things that need, you know,
0:24:16 very specific dry cleaning anymore.
0:24:18 No matter how much, you know, I could make,
0:24:19 it’s just not worth the effort.
0:24:22 – Yeah, ’cause they have to be ironed afterwards.
0:24:24 You have a team member who comes over and like irons this stuff.
0:24:25 That’s like my least favorite activity.
0:24:27 – I iron it, it’s not too bad.
0:24:30 It’s like I said, like some of the stuff
0:24:32 that’s dry cleaned obviously comes all ready to go.
0:24:35 And then yeah, it’s more just like the linen pieces.
0:24:36 And I’ll just give them a quick iron.
0:24:39 But what I don’t, I’m not like pedantic about it
0:24:41 because ultimately you’re putting it in the post
0:24:44 and it’s gonna get crushed on the way anyway.
0:24:44 – Sure, sure.
0:24:46 – So you’re just giving it a quick, you know,
0:24:47 just so it looks nice.
0:24:49 But the customer’s gonna iron or steam it
0:24:50 when it gets to them anyway.
0:24:51 So yeah.
0:24:52 – Sure, okay.
0:24:55 Now with a couple hundred of these garments coming in
0:24:57 and going out at any given time,
0:24:59 and I imagine there’s some seasonality to it,
0:25:02 but like any tools or tech or inventory management system,
0:25:06 complex spreadsheet or account like you mentioned
0:25:08 the notion template, what’s what’s going on
0:25:09 on the trying to figure out, in my mind,
0:25:11 it might be weeks before I even noticed
0:25:12 that something hasn’t gotten returned.
0:25:14 But like it seems like you gotta be on top of it.
0:25:15 ‘Cause like, oh shoot,
0:25:16 I owe this to another customer next week.
0:25:17 – Yeah, definitely.
0:25:20 Like when I had 350 dresses, I did employ someone.
0:25:22 Like I just had like an assistant
0:25:25 and she was ticking off dresses as they come in.
0:25:27 We tried Notion, we tried spreadsheets.
0:25:28 It’s really, it’s really, really hard
0:25:30 when the inventory gets big.
0:25:32 It’s really hard to keep track of.
0:25:35 But now that I have around 200 dresses,
0:25:38 it’s actually not too difficult to keep track of.
0:25:40 I think you just, it’s like,
0:25:42 I guess if you’re a teacher and you know your students,
0:25:45 it’s like, I know my dresses, I know what’s missing.
0:25:46 I’m like, hey, that dress is missing.
0:25:47 Where is that dress?
0:25:51 – I’m not super like rigid in like ticking things off
0:25:52 and that I probably should be.
0:25:54 But usually you find out you don’t have it
0:25:56 if it needs to go back out again too.
0:25:58 And you’re like, oh, where is that dress?
0:26:01 – And I see some of them stored behind you
0:26:04 in the video closet space, spare bedroom space
0:26:06 that where they’re being stored.
0:26:09 – Yeah, this is a converted double garage that I converted.
0:26:12 This was my office for the model agency.
0:26:16 And now it’s my reselling rental room, I guess.
0:26:19 So I have a wall to take my photos for the reselling
0:26:21 and then, yeah, just keep everything in here on rack.
0:26:25 So you could easily keep it just in a small bedroom, though.
0:26:28 Probably, yeah, with a closet would be pretty hard
0:26:29 with 200 dresses.
0:26:33 Maybe if you had like 70 or 80, you could keep it in a closet.
0:26:35 – Do you find yourself buying multiple sizes
0:26:38 of the same style or is it like, I’m gonna buy one.
0:26:39 I’m gonna see what the demand is like.
0:26:42 And if it hits and I’m going really wide,
0:26:45 like I want the full catalog of this particular style.
0:26:46 I want to be able to serve all different sizes.
0:26:49 – Yeah, I definitely will buy all the sizes
0:26:53 because generally the thing is that they will sell out.
0:26:56 Like I’ve had dresses that sell out within 20 minutes.
0:26:57 So I have to be on the drop.
0:27:00 And then it’s a matter of if I didn’t get everything,
0:27:03 then I have to try and pick it up in the resell market.
0:27:06 If it’s, yeah, a really popular style.
0:27:08 – And then the biggest risk is
0:27:10 the demand doesn’t materialize.
0:27:11 Like it doesn’t end up renting out
0:27:13 as often as you thought it would
0:27:14 or for as much as you thought it would.
0:27:17 And now you’re kind of like, well, I’m sitting on this
0:27:19 and I’ve got to go and try and unload it,
0:27:22 try and resell it to recoup the initial investment.
0:27:23 – Yeah, but that’s why it’s really important
0:27:25 to try and get it, get those coupons
0:27:27 to like find things for 20% off.
0:27:30 Because then it’s super easy just to offload it.
0:27:32 Anyone will buy something that’s sold out
0:27:35 for like if 10% off even.
0:27:37 Like I said, then usually I can take,
0:27:40 if that item hasn’t rented, I can list it on eBay.
0:27:43 And then I’ll probably sell it to someone in the US or UK
0:27:45 and probably make $200 profit on it.
0:27:46 So the downside isn’t too bad.
0:27:49 Like you would think that you’d be stuck with stuff,
0:27:52 but the biggest downside is probably the damage
0:27:53 to the dresses.
0:27:55 And then obviously it becomes quite hard to sell them
0:27:57 once they’re very damaged.
0:27:58 – Oh, okay.
0:27:59 So they come back damaged.
0:28:01 Like is there a damage deposit?
0:28:03 Like if I’m renting out a place on Airbnb,
0:28:05 like, okay, I got to put down the security deposit
0:28:07 or you know, something like that.
0:28:09 – You could definitely request security deposits
0:28:11 and the platforms like allow you to request them,
0:28:14 but you’re going to severely hinder your rentals
0:28:16 because people are just going to be like,
0:28:18 no, I don’t want to pay a deposit.
0:28:19 You can if you want,
0:28:21 but you won’t be renting that many dresses probably.
0:28:22 – Okay.
0:28:24 And so it’s just kind of, you know, what happens
0:28:25 if you get it back and be like,
0:28:28 dude, there’s a huge tear down the side.
0:28:30 Did you expect me not to notice that?
0:28:31 – Yeah.
0:28:32 – What do you want?
0:28:33 Or are people more upfront and be like,
0:28:34 oh, I’m so sorry.
0:28:36 You know, I got it snagged on.
0:28:37 – You get a bit of both.
0:28:40 So you get, you do get people that are like,
0:28:41 oh, I’m so sorry.
0:28:43 Like I broke the zip, I’ll send you money.
0:28:46 I’ve even had people put cash in with the dress.
0:28:47 So I’m so sorry.
0:28:50 Like here’s the money to fix the zip or whatever.
0:28:52 So you do get some really good people,
0:28:55 but then obviously you get some special people
0:28:58 who send it back and it looks like, you know,
0:29:01 they’ve rolled around in the mud, jumped in the fire,
0:29:02 howled at the moon.
0:29:05 Like it looks really bad.
0:29:08 Like it’s just totally wrecked.
0:29:10 And you’re like, what, like you try to,
0:29:12 I did have a game on Instagram for a while
0:29:15 with my followers, like guess what happened in this dress?
0:29:18 Because like I’d show the stains and like it was really funny.
0:29:21 But yeah, sometimes they just come back destroyed.
0:29:24 And so, I mean, if they’re completely destroyed
0:29:26 and the person is just ghosting me,
0:29:29 then that’s where I’m basically self-insured.
0:29:31 So I just have to cop it on the chin.
0:29:33 The platforms will follow up to a degree.
0:29:35 They’ll say, you know, can you pay?
0:29:38 But ultimately they don’t have to pay.
0:29:41 Like I would have to, you know, file a police report
0:29:43 or something to try and get them to pay.
0:29:45 Or I think you could take it to small claims.
0:29:48 I do see people, you know, those girls in their 20s,
0:29:52 they get on the Facebook groups and start ranting
0:29:53 and saying that they’re going to take things
0:29:55 to small claims court or things like that.
0:29:57 I just too old for that stuff.
0:30:00 So I’m just like, whatever.
0:30:02 And yeah, sometimes you can sell stuff with damage.
0:30:04 You just disclose the damage.
0:30:06 You say, look, the hems torn,
0:30:09 but you can easily, you know, get a seamstress to redo it.
0:30:11 I did have a seamstress kind of on tap for a while
0:30:13 that I was taking stuff to.
0:30:16 But I think, again, it’s just like a time thing.
0:30:18 It’s just not really worth it for me.
0:30:20 – Okay. Yeah, it’s kind of at a certain point,
0:30:24 it just becomes, you know, a loss, you know, a percent loss.
0:30:25 – Yeah. – Like stores expect
0:30:27 some level of shoplifting, unfortunately.
0:30:28 – Yeah, exactly. – Like it’s just,
0:30:29 it’s a cost to do in business.
0:30:32 And, you know, hopefully you’re diversified enough
0:30:33 in terms of transaction volume
0:30:36 that a couple of bad things that happen
0:30:37 are just kind of par for the course.
0:30:38 – Yeah, exactly.
0:30:39 It’s exactly like shoplifting.
0:30:41 That’s how I always explain it.
0:30:44 You know, you’ve got to expect that some bad things happen,
0:30:46 but for the most part, it’s pretty good.
0:30:47 – More with summer in just a moment,
0:30:50 including when to exit out of a dress to sell it
0:30:51 rather than keep renting it.
0:30:52 And two ways to get started
0:30:55 without a big upfront investment right after this.
0:30:59 (phone ringing)
0:31:02 – You hear that? That’s the sound of your marketing working.
0:31:03 And as an entrepreneur,
0:31:05 you know that every call is an opportunity.
0:31:08 But if you miss it, potential customers don’t wait.
0:31:10 They just call the next business on their list.
0:31:11 With our sponsor, OpenPhone,
0:31:15 you’ll never let another customer’s call go unanswered.
0:31:18 OpenPhone is the number one modern business phone system
0:31:20 that helps you separate your personal life
0:31:21 from your growing business.
0:31:22 For just 15 bucks a month,
0:31:25 you get complete transparency and visibility
0:31:27 into everything happening with your business phone number.
0:31:30 OpenPhone works through an app on your phone or computer
0:31:33 and integrates with HubSpot and hundreds of other systems.
0:31:37 One of my favorite features is their AI-powered call transcripts
0:31:40 and summaries so you can streamline client communication
0:31:43 and get a summary of every phone call with action items
0:31:44 right when you hang up.
0:31:47 That means no more note-taking, no more forgotten to-dos.
0:31:49 And right now, OpenPhone is offering
0:31:52 side hustle show listeners 20% off your first six months
0:31:56 when you go to openphone.com/side hustle.
0:32:01 That’s O-P-E-N-P-H-O-N-E.com/side hustle
0:32:04 for 20% off six months.
0:32:07 OpenPhone.com/side hustle
0:32:09 and if you have existing numbers with another service,
0:32:12 OpenPhone will port them over at no extra charge.
0:32:15 Did you know there’s a disease running rampant
0:32:17 among side hustlers and new entrepreneurs?
0:32:19 It’s called superhero syndrome.
0:32:21 Symptoms include a feeling
0:32:22 like you gotta do everything yourself.
0:32:24 Thinking you’re the only one who can do it right
0:32:27 and struggling to let go of certain tasks.
0:32:28 Does that sound familiar to anyone?
0:32:30 But the good news is there is a cure.
0:32:33 Our sponsor indeed can help you find the best candidates
0:32:36 for the roles you need to fill and find them fast.
0:32:38 Stop struggling to get your job posts seen
0:32:39 on other job sites.
0:32:43 Indeed, sponsored jobs help you stand out and hire fast.
0:32:46 With sponsored jobs, your post jumps to the top of the page
0:32:47 for your relevant candidates
0:32:50 so you can reach the people you want faster than ever.
0:32:52 Sponsored jobs posted directly on Indeed
0:32:55 get 45% more applications.
0:32:57 Don’t let superhero syndrome hold you back.
0:32:59 That’s why for my next hire, I’m using Indeed.
0:33:01 There’s no need to wait any longer.
0:33:03 Speed up your hiring right now with Indeed.
0:33:07 Side hustle show listeners get a $75 sponsored job credit
0:33:09 to get your jobs more visibility
0:33:12 at Indeed.com/SideHustleShow.
0:33:15 Just go to Indeed.com/SideHustleShow right now
0:33:17 and support our show by saying you heard about Indeed
0:33:19 on this podcast.
0:33:22 Indeed.com/SideHustleShow terms and conditions apply.
0:33:25 Hiring Indeed is all you need.
0:33:28 – Okay, like if you have something that’s really hot,
0:33:30 like, oh, it’s been rented a bunch of times.
0:33:32 Is there a rule of thumb?
0:33:33 Okay, it’s getting worn out.
0:33:35 Like I gotta resell it or like I have to,
0:33:36 let’s ride this cash cow.
0:33:38 Let’s see how many more times we can rent it.
0:33:43 Like is there a metric or some sort of rule of thumb there
0:33:44 for like, when is it time to flip
0:33:47 and get out before it gets too cold?
0:33:49 – I think it just comes down to experience.
0:33:50 I don’t think there’s like a spreadsheet
0:33:52 or I could say if it’s rented 10 times.
0:33:54 It will depend on the material.
0:33:56 So certain materials will hold up better than others.
0:33:59 So something that silk probably doesn’t hold up usually
0:34:02 that well as opposed to something that’s like 100% linen
0:34:04 will usually go quite well.
0:34:06 You know, it will depend on how much it’s fading and stuff.
0:34:10 I think that a lot of the time, like when I first started,
0:34:14 I was really concerned about it looking pristine.
0:34:16 And I think what I’ve come to realize
0:34:19 is that people expect it to be secondhand.
0:34:21 They know it’s a secondhand dress.
0:34:23 They know other people have worn it.
0:34:28 So it doesn’t really matter if like, it’s clearly been worn.
0:34:31 Like obviously they don’t want a hole in it or whatever.
0:34:36 But like, yeah, the expectations aren’t too bad, I think.
0:34:38 I mean, you get the odd one who’s like,
0:34:40 this should be brand new, why isn’t this brand new?
0:34:43 But yeah, people do expect that it’s been worn.
0:34:44 Yeah, that’s fair.
0:34:47 It’s like getting in a rental car or even vacation rental,
0:34:49 like you know that other people have been in there.
0:34:50 Okay, that’s fair.
0:34:52 – So when to flip it, I guess if, yeah,
0:34:55 if it just starts to look really tired and old,
0:34:56 then I’ll probably just flip it.
0:34:58 It might come down to like just getting
0:35:00 to the end of the season.
0:35:03 So for us, it’s quite busy from kind of September
0:35:05 till April.
0:35:08 And so maybe, you know, I would start getting rid of stuff
0:35:11 towards April, May, June and getting that cash in
0:35:14 ready to buy new stuff for the next season.
0:35:15 – In the next years, okay.
0:35:19 – So it could come down to cash flow or yeah, just demand.
0:35:21 Like I can see that, yeah, people just,
0:35:24 it’s just not in demand and just becomes a math equation.
0:35:27 Then like, obviously when you’re buying a dress,
0:35:29 you’re buying cash flow basically.
0:35:33 So the dress, just like a house, the dress is the asset
0:35:35 and I’m buying the cash flow from the rentals.
0:35:38 And so I’ve got to kind of make a mathematical decision
0:35:41 is, you know, the money best sitting in the dress
0:35:44 or is it best moving it on and buying something
0:35:47 that’s kind of yielding a better rental?
0:35:50 – Yeah, I mean, what an interesting cash flowing asset.
0:35:53 Something I never would have considered, but yeah,
0:35:57 here are these marketplaces that need people like you
0:35:59 and like Summer to fill the inventory here.
0:36:01 So that’s super interesting.
0:36:03 Do you ever get people, you know, if you send it out,
0:36:05 they rented this certain size and they’re like,
0:36:07 oh shoot, it doesn’t fit and the wedding’s tomorrow.
0:36:09 Like, sorry, I can’t help you.
0:36:10 Like what happens?
0:36:11 – Yeah, you definitely get that.
0:36:14 People always think they’re skinnier than they are.
0:36:16 So it’s always, usually it’s too small.
0:36:18 And yeah, sometimes people will hit you up
0:36:20 and say, well, can I get a refund?
0:36:21 And I’ll be like, no,
0:36:24 because you essentially did the whole rental,
0:36:25 like I posted it to you.
0:36:28 Sometimes I will give them back the cleaning fee
0:36:29 if they haven’t worn it, I will say like,
0:36:33 if you return it on one, I can refund you the cleaning fee,
0:36:36 just, you know, as for goodwill, I guess.
0:36:38 But ultimately they have taken it out of the rental pool
0:36:40 for that amount of time.
0:36:43 So I do need to be compensated for that.
0:36:46 A lot of people will try and be tricky.
0:36:47 And like, well, first of all,
0:36:49 they’ll ask you for a try on service.
0:36:52 So they’ll say, oh, I’ll pay to just post it to me
0:36:53 so I can try it on.
0:36:56 And then I’ll, you know, I’ll send it back.
0:36:57 So they just want to pay for the post.
0:37:00 They’re like, oh, I won’t wear it, which is a bit silly.
0:37:03 And then sometimes people try and trick you into that.
0:37:04 So they’ll book a rental
0:37:07 and then they’ll try and do the, oh, it doesn’t fit me.
0:37:10 And I guess some newbies might be like, oh, that’s okay.
0:37:12 Just post it back and we’ll give you full refund.
0:37:14 And I guess with time you learn
0:37:18 that you’ve been taken advantage of a little bit.
0:37:19 – That’s code for I’m gonna wear it all weekend
0:37:21 and then tell you it didn’t fit.
0:37:22 – Exactly.
0:37:26 – Yeah, yeah, so many ins and outs in this industry.
0:37:26 – Yeah.
0:37:27 – It’s kind of crazy.
0:37:29 So I’m picturing a day in the life,
0:37:32 especially during busy season, checking inventory levels,
0:37:35 like managing the in and out of receiving stuff in,
0:37:39 taking it to the cleaners, dry cleaning it, ironing,
0:37:42 and then sending out kind of the next weekend’s batch
0:37:45 of inventory, like anything else that’s going into it
0:37:47 on a day-to-day basis.
0:37:48 It sounds like on the marketing side,
0:37:52 it’s primarily just putting your buy button up for sale
0:37:54 on these existing marketplaces,
0:37:57 like, you know, tapping into their traffic.
0:37:59 – Yeah, the listings are like so easy,
0:38:01 it’s so much easier than like eBay,
0:38:03 like an eBay listing for reselling is,
0:38:04 there’s a lot of thought.
0:38:07 I’ve even created a chat GPT bot
0:38:09 to like do my eBay listings really well.
0:38:12 Like there’s a lot that goes into it with the rentee.
0:38:12 It’s not like that.
0:38:16 I just kind of chuck up whatever is on the website
0:38:18 and it takes like two seconds.
0:38:21 So yeah, like a day in the life is basically
0:38:24 the postman comes and drops off packages at my door
0:38:26 at about eight o’clock in the morning.
0:38:28 And then I just bring them inside
0:38:29 so no one else steal them.
0:38:32 And then I can, you know, put the stuff
0:38:32 in the washing machine.
0:38:34 – How funny, do you think they’re like, yeah,
0:38:35 this woman gets a lot of mail.
0:38:36 What’s going on here?
0:38:38 – Yeah, they’re like, whoa,
0:38:40 because I have the stuff for reselling coming too.
0:38:42 So I get a lot of packages.
0:38:44 But yeah, the postie and I are on good terms.
0:38:48 He knows where the side gate is if the big gate’s closed.
0:38:50 So yeah, he just comes and drops it off
0:38:53 and I just will open up the packages
0:38:56 and then put whatever needs to be put in the washing machine
0:38:58 and then, you know, section out what needs to go
0:38:59 the dry cleaner.
0:39:01 And that’s pretty much it in the mornings.
0:39:03 And then I’ll just maybe at about three o’clock
0:39:05 I’ll start packaging up.
0:39:09 It takes me maybe an hour to do seven or eight dresses
0:39:10 if I need to do that many
0:39:13 and take them to the post office around the corner.
0:39:15 I actually could have the postie come and pick it up
0:39:17 but we just take it to our post office.
0:39:19 And then that’s it.
0:39:21 Drop the other stuff off at the dry cleaner.
0:39:23 Yeah, it’s not time intensive.
0:39:25 It’s not a time intensive.
0:39:29 It’s more of a capital intensive business, I would say.
0:39:32 But there are ways to, you can start with no money down
0:39:35 which is, you know, something that I teach to my students.
0:39:37 So basically, if you wanna get started,
0:39:38 the two ways you can get started
0:39:41 without putting a lot of money into inventory
0:39:44 is you can work on a consignment model.
0:39:46 So you can go to all your friends and family
0:39:48 and say, who’s got dresses?
0:39:49 They want me to rent.
0:39:51 – Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I like it.
0:39:53 – Yeah, you could get started that way
0:39:56 or the other way is, and this might be a bit controversial
0:39:59 but you can buy things on, say if you’re in the US,
0:40:02 you could buy things on somewhere like Revolve
0:40:05 that have, you know, change of mind return policies.
0:40:07 And you could see, put it up for rent, see if it rents.
0:40:09 If it doesn’t rent, you send it back
0:40:12 and before you have to pay your credit card.
0:40:15 And then you can get a feel for what rents
0:40:17 and at least then if you have gotten that piece
0:40:19 that rents you’ve already recouped, you know,
0:40:22 a third of your investment straight off the bat
0:40:24 before you’ve actually had to pay any money out.
0:40:27 – Okay, and imagine a lot of stores have that similar,
0:40:30 even if it’s a 30 day return policy,
0:40:32 it’s gonna give you a low risk way
0:40:35 to validate the demand or test the demand, I don’t know.
0:40:37 – Yeah, or if you just wanna try it out, yeah.
0:40:38 – That’s fair.
0:40:39 Well, we’ve got the rental business,
0:40:41 you’ve got the profit collective,
0:40:43 you’ve got the reselling business.
0:40:44 What’s next for you?
0:40:45 What are you excited about this year?
0:40:48 – So I put out courses on the reselling.
0:40:50 So I have a course called Pre-Lover Profit
0:40:52 and then I have the course on the rentals
0:40:53 called Rental Riches.
0:40:54 And that’s kind of like blowing up
0:40:57 to the point where I actually closed my model agency
0:40:59 after 15 years at the end of June
0:41:02 because it just kind of blew up pretty big.
0:41:04 So yeah, I’m just gonna keep teaching women
0:41:06 how to do what I’m doing basically,
0:41:08 or men if they wanna learn.
0:41:09 – I never asked like, is there a market
0:41:12 for like I’m gonna rent out a suit
0:41:14 or like men will be the equivalent on the men’s side?
0:41:15 – I think there would be.
0:41:17 Like you can definitely, even with the women’s,
0:41:20 you can rent out jackets or coats and things like that.
0:41:22 It’s not a massive market in Australia
0:41:24 because it’s just too hot here basically.
0:41:25 – Okay, okay.
0:41:26 – There’s not many parts of the country
0:41:28 that are like cold enough for coats all the time.
0:41:30 Like there is elsewhere,
0:41:33 but I’m sure that you probably could do things
0:41:34 with men’s stuff.
0:41:36 I don’t know, are you gonna do it, Nick?
0:41:38 Are you gonna put your clothes up?
0:41:42 – I love this like idea of getting paid over and over again
0:41:43 from something that you do once.
0:41:45 I could not start in my closet
0:41:48 ’cause it’s been decades since I got any new clothes,
0:41:50 but it’s such an interesting one.
0:41:52 And it’s like, if you’re gonna go after the men’s market,
0:41:54 maybe you’re gonna be a big player
0:41:57 if there’s no existing supply base there
0:42:00 or there’s more people doing it on the dress rental side.
0:42:02 It’s more established, it’s more of a thing.
0:42:03 – It’s really interesting to think about it
0:42:05 as like an asset class in general
0:42:07 because people might think that I’m crazy
0:42:10 because I did put a hundred grand into dresses.
0:42:12 Like in that first year, people were like,
0:42:13 what are you doing?
0:42:15 Like, and I said, well,
0:42:18 but it’s an asset that I can resell afterwards
0:42:21 for the same price I paid for it, if not more.
0:42:22 And it’s giving me cash flow in between
0:42:26 for pretty, you know, a low amount of work.
0:42:28 So I think it’s really interesting to think about
0:42:30 and something I’ve been talking about on Instagram
0:42:32 a lot this week with my followers was like,
0:42:34 how you could, you know, in Australia,
0:42:37 it’s all about, oh, no one can afford to buy a house.
0:42:39 You know, houses are so expensive here
0:42:42 and people, you know, might be able to save say 30 grand
0:42:43 for a house deposit,
0:42:45 but that’s not enough for a house deposit.
0:42:46 You need 200 grand here
0:42:48 ’cause like the average house price is a million dollars now.
0:42:51 And I was like, well, what if you, you know,
0:42:54 took that 30 grand invested it into some dresses,
0:42:55 took that rental income
0:42:57 and then the reselling income over the course of two years
0:43:00 and you could turn it into 200 grand quite easily.
0:43:02 So it’s something to think about.
0:43:05 – Yeah, dresses as an asset class, like you said,
0:43:06 it is capital intensive,
0:43:09 but you’ve kind of protected your downside.
0:43:12 Like, oh, I’m hopefully gonna cash flow in the near term.
0:43:14 And if I bought well enough upfront,
0:43:16 I can recoup sometimes even better
0:43:18 than my acquisition cost on the back end,
0:43:21 you know, despite the wear and tear and depreciation.
0:43:22 Like, it’s really interesting,
0:43:23 something that we’d never have when you,
0:43:26 your email came across as like, what a random,
0:43:29 so yeah, I get a kick out of businesses like this for sure.
0:43:32 So follow along, summer is at the Profit Collective.
0:43:34 You can find her on Instagram over there.
0:43:38 And if you hit up the profitcollective.co/rookie,
0:43:40 you can join her free masterclass
0:43:44 on the three biggest mistakes that newbies are making
0:43:47 when starting a pre-loved clothing business.
0:43:51 Again, the profitcollective.co/rookie for that.
0:43:53 Summer, this has been awesome.
0:43:54 Thank you for joining me.
0:43:56 I always get a kick out of stuff like this.
0:43:56 – No problem.
0:43:58 – Let’s wrap this thing up
0:44:00 with your number one tip for side hustle nation.
0:44:02 – If you think you can or you think you can’t,
0:44:03 you’re right.
0:44:06 So I get a lot of people say that they,
0:44:08 all the reasons they can’t start their side hustles.
0:44:10 So they can’t start their side hustle
0:44:12 because of where they live or, you know,
0:44:14 how much money they have or something like that.
0:44:16 And whether they think they can or they can’t,
0:44:18 they’re right because I had a girl
0:44:21 who messaged me just yesterday, actually,
0:44:23 and she said, “Oh, I would love to do what you do,
0:44:26 but I live in Italy and it’s a really small market here.”
0:44:28 And so I looked up the population of Australia in Italy
0:44:30 and I said, “Actually, you have doubled
0:44:33 the population of Australia.”
0:44:34 So that’s not an excuse.
0:44:35 So I think a lot of–
0:44:36 – Smaller geographically, yeah.
0:44:39 – Yeah, I’m like, so that can’t be an excuse.
0:44:42 So a lot of people think that, you know,
0:44:43 that I’m special because I live in Australia
0:44:45 or because I had a model agency
0:44:46 and I have a background in fashion and all these things.
0:44:49 But I think that all these things can be learned.
0:44:52 And yeah, you just have to have the right attitude
0:44:53 that you can make it work for you.
0:44:55 – Yeah, what an interesting business.
0:44:57 Whether you think you can or you think you can’t,
0:45:01 you are right, a little Henry Ford wisdom from that,
0:45:03 which was my one and only corporate job working for Ford.
0:45:04 – Oh, there you go.
0:45:06 – Obviously long after Henry passed,
0:45:08 but whether you think you can or think you can’t,
0:45:09 you are right.
0:45:12 Make sure to grab your free listener only bonus
0:45:13 for this week.
0:45:14 We’ve been talking about dresses,
0:45:16 but it’s just one of a lot of different things
0:45:17 that you can rent out for a profit.
0:45:21 So the listener bonus is 25 other unconventional rental
0:45:23 ideas that you might be able to borrow
0:45:25 some of Summers Playbook for.
0:45:28 And a lot of these different assets and products
0:45:30 already have these preexisting marketplaces
0:45:32 that you can tap into.
0:45:34 They’ve already kind of validated the demand
0:45:35 and gotten people used to saying,
0:45:37 well, hey, this is something that I don’t have to buy out,
0:45:39 this is something that I can rent
0:45:41 for just the time period that I need it.
0:45:43 So make sure to grab that.
0:45:46 It’s a free PDF download at the show notes for this episode.
0:45:49 You can follow the link in the episode description
0:45:50 and I’ll get you right over there.
0:45:53 Now, another recent rental episode
0:45:55 that we did, another example of this
0:45:58 was Gary Graywell’s moving box rental service
0:45:59 like renting out plastic bins.
0:46:02 Definitely an interesting one, episode 635.
0:46:05 He ended up partnering with a local moving company
0:46:08 to handle the storage and the delivery logistics
0:46:10 and was like, let’s take up a lot of space
0:46:11 if I got 50 or 100 of these things.
0:46:13 So you don’t have to scroll too far in the archives
0:46:15 to find that one and get 635.
0:46:18 And then another one from a year, year and a half ago
0:46:24 is 564 with Lenny Tim on his mobility scooter rental business.
0:46:27 He’s doing this in LA and yeah,
0:46:28 I think he had a fleet of six or seven of these
0:46:31 and he would deliver them to nearby hotels.
0:46:34 Like mostly for, you know, people, travelers, tourists,
0:46:35 people coming into LA from out of town,
0:46:38 like it doesn’t make sense to bring my own mobility scooter.
0:46:40 So I got a rent one while I’m in town
0:46:43 and he was making a few grand a month doing that on the side.
0:46:48 So lots of different things that you might be able to rent out
0:46:49 and you just start to notice these things
0:46:51 as you go to back to day to day.
0:46:53 And like, oh, what are those things
0:46:55 that are maybe a little more expensive
0:46:56 than you’d like to pay for something?
0:46:59 How many times are we really going to use that thing?
0:47:02 And dresses can check that box for those weddings
0:47:02 or those one-off events.
0:47:04 But Summer, thanks so much for sharing your insight.
0:47:05 Big thanks to our sponsors
0:47:08 for helping make this content free for everyone.
0:47:10 You can hit up sidehustlenation.com/deals
0:47:13 for all the latest offers from our sponsors in one place.
0:47:15 Thank you for supporting the advertisers
0:47:16 that support the show.
0:47:18 That is it for me.
0:47:19 Thank you so much for tuning in.
0:47:20 If you find a value in the show,
0:47:22 the greatest compliment is to share it with a friend.
0:47:26 So fire off a text message to that fashionable friend of yours
0:47:28 and say, “Hey, have you ever thought about this?
0:47:29 Check this one out.”
0:47:31 Until next time, let’s go out there and make something happen
0:47:34 and I’ll catch you in the next edition of The Side Hustle Show.