0:00:03 – Seven questions to ask before you quit your job.
0:00:05 What’s up, what’s up, Nick Loper here.
0:00:07 Welcome to The Science Hustle Show,
0:00:09 part of the entrepreneur podcast network
0:00:12 because building your own income streams
0:00:15 is the best way to recession-proof your life.
0:00:17 So how do you know when it’s time to hand in your two weeks
0:00:20 notice and become your own boss?
0:00:22 That’s what this episode is about.
0:00:24 Now, quitting your job to pursue your business full-time
0:00:27 is a dream for a lot of science hustlers,
0:00:29 but there are a few things
0:00:30 that I think you should have in place
0:00:32 before you make the leap.
0:00:33 When I was working my corporate gig,
0:00:35 my one and only corporate job out of college,
0:00:39 I probably stuck around longer than I needed to
0:00:42 because maybe I’m just more risk-averse.
0:00:43 I had my little shoe business
0:00:45 plug it away nights and weekends on this thing.
0:00:48 And the cool part was because it was an online business,
0:00:50 it earned money even when I was at work.
0:00:52 So I have that in the back of my mind
0:00:54 that this could be a full-time thing.
0:00:56 It’s just waiting for the right time to make the leap.
0:01:00 And the truth is timing is never gonna be perfect
0:01:02 and that the leap is gonna be scary
0:01:04 even with a proven side hustle,
0:01:06 even once you’ve answered the questions from this episode.
0:01:09 Yes, you can prepare, you can make that cliff a little shorter.
0:01:11 You probably heard that line from Reed Hoffman,
0:01:13 an entrepreneur, someone who will jump off the cliff
0:01:16 and figure out how to assemble the airplane on the way down.
0:01:18 And in a way, that’s what this show is all about.
0:01:20 It’s about shortening your cliff.
0:01:23 It’s about building the airplane before you leap.
0:01:26 But for me, quitting my job wasn’t this spur of the moment
0:01:29 decision, it wasn’t the triumph and flip everyone off in the office
0:01:33 and make a dramatic exit and slam the door on the way out.
0:01:36 It was the result of three years of nights and weekends
0:01:38 to build it up to where that was even an option.
0:01:39 That was even on the table.
0:01:42 But I’ve been thinking about it for at least a year
0:01:46 and it felt amazing when I finally got up the nerve to tell my boss
0:01:48 we were out to dinner in Eureka, California.
0:01:52 And the next day for the full six hour drive back to the Bay Area,
0:01:56 I got to be excited that, yes, this is real, this is happening.
0:01:57 I’m doing it.
0:01:59 And of course, that was really just
0:02:01 the beginning of the entrepreneurial roller coaster,
0:02:04 but it still felt like an important milestone.
0:02:06 So without further ado, seven questions
0:02:08 to ask before you quit your job.
0:02:12 Number one is, are you quitting to something or from something?
0:02:15 Now, even if your job is miserable
0:02:19 and the very thought of another day in your cubicle
0:02:20 makes you want to gouge out your eyes,
0:02:25 quitting purely to escape isn’t going to solve all your problems.
0:02:28 Now, thankfully, this is where your side hustle comes in.
0:02:31 Quitting to work on your business is a lot different than quitting
0:02:34 just to get away from a dissatisfying work situation without a plan.
0:02:36 And it’s the same thing for retirement.
0:02:39 I think it’s something that keeps a lot of people working.
0:02:42 A lot of would be early retirees still punching the clock.
0:02:45 The work has become a part of their identity.
0:02:47 They’re not sure what they would do without it,
0:02:50 even if they don’t mathematically, statistically need the income anymore.
0:02:53 And then you hear about the stories of people dying in the weeks
0:02:56 immediately following their retirement.
0:02:59 Their work had become such a deep part of them,
0:03:02 they literally couldn’t exist without it.
0:03:03 But for the case of most side hustlers,
0:03:06 you’re probably quitting to pursue your own business
0:03:10 and hopefully a lifestyle that allows more time freedom and more earning power.
0:03:13 In my case, I wasn’t quitting a job that I hated.
0:03:17 I was quitting instead to pursue a business that I enjoyed more
0:03:22 and one importantly that I thought had a lot more upside potential.
0:03:23 And maybe it’s two birds with one stone.
0:03:26 Maybe it’s getting out of that toxic work environment
0:03:28 and moving toward something better.
0:03:32 But if you can’t imagine what you’re going to be spending your time doing
0:03:34 after quitting other than just not working anymore,
0:03:37 you’re probably not ready to quit yet.
0:03:43 That’s question one, are you quitting to something or from something or both?
0:03:47 Question number two, how much is your side hustle earning?
0:03:51 Before you quit, you got to make sure your side hustle is validated with real dollars.
0:03:54 This isn’t going to come as a surprise to anyone,
0:03:58 but the only real validation is in terms of actual sales.
0:04:00 People giving you money for your thing.
0:04:02 Now, some side hustlers are a lot more aggressive than I am,
0:04:06 but I wanted to see several months or even a year of my side business
0:04:09 earning enough to cover my expenses before I quit.
0:04:11 And that’s an important point.
0:04:14 You don’t need to fully replace your day job salary
0:04:16 provided you’re living below your means.
0:04:19 But I do think it’s nice to have a track record, a profit
0:04:22 that’s at least covering your fixed expenses.
0:04:25 The reason for that is then you’re in the same position that I was
0:04:29 where my entire day job salary was gravy.
0:04:31 And I remember the first month where that really hit me
0:04:36 and it was this empowering moment of, I don’t need this job anymore.
0:04:38 I’m not desperate for this paycheck.
0:04:42 And it’s another point in favor of keeping your expenses low
0:04:46 because that means it’s a lower hurdle to clear talking about lowering that cliff.
0:04:49 Now, some people like Shannon Weinstein built her side hustle
0:04:53 up to a multi-six figure level before giving her notice at work.
0:04:54 I was especially kind.
0:04:58 I gave about four weeks notice because I couldn’t wait to tell them I was leaving.
0:04:59 I broke the news to my team.
0:05:01 They said, what are you going to do?
0:05:02 That’s the first question they always ask you, right?
0:05:04 Like, so what are you going to do?
0:05:07 As though this is the end all be all of careers that you could choose.
0:05:08 Like, what are you going to do other than this?
0:05:12 And I was like, well, almost literally anything else would make me happier.
0:05:16 But and if you’re there, I feel you.
0:05:20 So what happened was I told them, by the way, I’m starting my own business.
0:05:22 I’m going to go do my own business full time.
0:05:24 And they’re like, what type of business are you going to start?
0:05:27 Well, I was like, well, I actually have a multi-six figure CFO practice
0:05:31 and a top 100 entrepreneurship podcast already.
0:05:33 And they were like, wait, what?
0:05:35 They were like, wait a second, what are you talking about?
0:05:38 And I said, none of y’all have Googled me over the last two years, luckily.
0:05:42 But if you Google me, that is what will come up on LinkedIn, on Facebook.
0:05:46 I was super quiet, but on Instagram and on other platforms, I was building.
0:05:49 So I knew my coworkers were not on these platforms.
0:05:52 So I was freely able to build these types of things.
0:05:55 And I was able to show up and deliver value and teach.
0:05:58 Here’s the brilliant part, though, about that is I was showing up
0:06:02 and I wasn’t like selling a ton on Instagram.
0:06:03 I wasn’t showing up and selling.
0:06:05 I was delivering value over the course of two years.
0:06:08 I was not starving to sell people something.
0:06:10 I just showed up and tried to build an audience.
0:06:14 So then when I finally quit the job and I was
0:06:18 able to openly talk about my business and to promote it on all platforms,
0:06:20 I was like, and by the way, now I get something to sell you guys.
0:06:24 So it was super exciting to be able to kind of be open
0:06:27 and be out there as a business owner and be proud of it.
0:06:31 I don’t think you need to wait that long or see that level of income
0:06:32 before you take the leap.
0:06:34 But on the other side of it, you’ve got people like
0:06:40 Kevin Klein, who quit his job after the side business had earned just 50 bucks.
0:06:44 We made 50 bucks and I was at this point where I was depressed
0:06:46 and hated every job I ever had and knew that if I stayed there,
0:06:48 I would just be miserable the rest of my life.
0:06:50 Our marriage was struggling because of it.
0:06:52 And Brittany was sick and tired of me complaining.
0:06:56 So I said, hey, we didn’t just jump without having our finances ordered.
0:06:58 We still had a lot of student loan debt, but we had at least six months
0:07:01 of nest egg where we could live off of that in Brittany’s salary.
0:07:04 So I’m not having to make horrible decisions based on
0:07:07 where’s the income coming from and trying to make money quick.
0:07:10 So that was a huge blessing to have that income saved up.
0:07:12 And then I just had confidence in myself.
0:07:14 I’ve had a bunch of businesses.
0:07:17 I did dropshipping in college and so I’ve made money online.
0:07:22 But that $50 was like a is just a signal of like go all in and you can find
0:07:24 freelance work with digital marketing because you’ve been doing it.
0:07:28 And within two months, I replaced my income with freelancing in our blog.
0:07:32 You can check out those full episodes with Shannon and Kellen for more.
0:07:37 Those are number 553 and 605 in your archives.
0:07:40 You want to scroll back in your app to find those in Shannon’s case.
0:07:45 We talked about her using Instagram and her podcasts to build an audience,
0:07:47 build relationships with potential customers.
0:07:52 And with Kellen, it was how an online business can thrive in a post HCU world,
0:07:54 a post helpful content update world.
0:07:58 Now, if your business is seasonal, another consideration is, well,
0:08:01 I want to make it through a whole cycle so I can kind of get a full picture of
0:08:04 what this is going to look like, hopefully for the next 12 months.
0:08:08 But still, it’s a big responsibility to write your own paycheck every month
0:08:12 and having a track record of doing that before you leave your job.
0:08:15 I think we’ll ease that anxiety in a big way.
0:08:19 We have more questions to ask before you quit your job right after this.
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0:09:29 So question two is how much is your side hustle earning?
0:09:32 Question three is what’s your runway?
0:09:35 And Kellen alluded to this just a moment ago.
0:09:39 Like, well, we had a little bit of savings cushion and I think it’s really,
0:09:43 really important to have that. So your runway or your cash cushion,
0:09:46 this is the amount of cash you have socked away to be able to cover your
0:09:50 living expenses while you’re working on building up your business.
0:09:53 And it’s usually measured in the number of months, right?
0:09:56 So some people will say, oh, you need at least three months of living expenses
0:10:01 saved up in your emergency fund or six months. I’m more conservative.
0:10:03 Income can be unpredictable.
0:10:05 I like to have 12 months of living expenses.
0:10:08 Other people think that’s insane. You don’t need that much,
0:10:10 but in a moment of high cash yields, like we’re recording right now,
0:10:12 it’s like, well, that’s totally fine.
0:10:15 But the way you can calculate that is to add up all your monthly expenses
0:10:20 and multiply by however many months of a runway or cushion would feel comfortable.
0:10:23 If income, for whatever reason, went to zero,
0:10:26 which was pretty much what happened to me right after I quit my job.
0:10:31 This was when Google decided they didn’t like my little shoe site very much anymore
0:10:34 and they wouldn’t take my advertising dollars for three months.
0:10:40 With that ad account shutdown, the traffic, the income took probably an 80%
0:10:44 hit in an instant and it took three months of literally pulling out my hair.
0:10:48 Like I had hair at this point to come back and eventually they came back three months later.
0:10:50 They said, look, we made an error. You’re good to go.
0:10:54 And while that was a stressful time, it would have been way more stressful
0:10:57 if I didn’t have that financial runway or cash cushion.
0:11:00 Now, if you’re not sure where you’re at in terms of runway,
0:11:05 I have a listen to the 30-day money cleanse episode that we did with Rachel
0:11:09 Jimenez earlier this year on just kind of a step-by-step checklist or playbook
0:11:12 to kind of get your personal finances in order there.
0:11:15 That’s question number three. Have a look at your cash runway.
0:11:19 What kind of living expenses or emergency fund have you got there?
0:11:22 And another call to keep your expenses low because that means
0:11:25 that’s less you’re going to have to save up for that runway.
0:11:30 The question four is what does your sales pipeline look like?
0:11:32 And this could be for service providers.
0:11:34 This could be for online business owners,
0:11:38 website owners, like do you have clients and sales in the pipeline?
0:11:40 And maybe they’re not closed yet.
0:11:43 Maybe they’re not fully like in that receivables column yet.
0:11:47 But do you have a process to acquire the next customer?
0:11:49 We’ve seen people. I started a consulting business.
0:11:53 I landed one client and then that gave me the confidence to quit my job.
0:11:55 But then the next month, it’s kind of this feast or famine.
0:11:59 Oh, well, now I shoot that job dried up and now I got to go find another client.
0:12:02 Right. So what is the sales pipeline look like?
0:12:06 And I think that’s essential to get a pulse on before you take the leap.
0:12:09 This is the only way to secure that you have a viable business
0:12:12 and that you didn’t just get lucky with a referral client or two.
0:12:14 Right. What’s the repeatable system here?
0:12:18 In my case, I had a system for building out advertising campaigns
0:12:21 for the shoe site, and I could see how if I just had more time
0:12:24 to dedicate to it, the business would grow.
0:12:26 It was proven. It was repeatable.
0:12:27 It just needed more time and attention.
0:12:31 So that’s question for what is your sales pipeline look like?
0:12:37 Number five is is your full time job preventing you from growing your side hustle,
0:12:39 which in my case, it absolutely was.
0:12:41 It’s easy to sit back and imagine all the great stuff you could do
0:12:45 if you just freed up an extra 40, 50 hours a week
0:12:48 that you’re pouring into your day job or more, if you count commute time.
0:12:52 And that’s what it was in my case, where there was a clear and direct path
0:12:56 of the day job is preventing the side hustle from going.
0:12:59 Nate Jackson put it this way in episode three ninety nine.
0:13:02 When I was running the numbers for myself, yeah,
0:13:06 it was costing me money to go to my job because like,
0:13:09 if I’m not working on my business, if I’m not sourcing, I’m not packing things.
0:13:14 I know what my hourly wage is for my business based on my numbers.
0:13:18 So then I was going to work like, OK, well, I’m making like 25 bucks an hour at work.
0:13:21 I’m making 100 bucks an hour working on my business with 200 bucks an hour.
0:13:25 Like I need to stop going to work because this is costing a lot of money.
0:13:27 Yeah, yeah, that’s awesome to get to that point.
0:13:28 Isn’t that an interesting way to frame it?
0:13:31 My day job is costing me money
0:13:34 because there’s always an opportunity cost on where we spend our time.
0:13:38 Now, the flip side of that is have you exhausted all the side hustle growth potential?
0:13:40 You can’t in the limited hours that you have.
0:13:42 Is time really the bottleneck?
0:13:45 Is the day job really the thing that’s preventing you from growing it?
0:13:47 Or with a little creativity?
0:13:50 Could you get more leverage out of the hours you do have?
0:13:51 I think it’s probably worth the thought
0:13:53 exercise to ask yourself that question as well.
0:13:54 That’s number five.
0:13:58 Is your full time job preventing you from growing your side hustle?
0:14:04 Number six is how are your costs going to increase or decrease after you quit?
0:14:07 Because becoming a full time entrepreneur is going to impact your budget.
0:14:10 Probably both positively and negatively.
0:14:14 For example, if you plan to work from home, your commuting costs might go down,
0:14:19 but your energy bill might go up when I turned in the keys to my company car,
0:14:22 which was seriously one of the best perks of my old job.
0:14:24 It was for a car company, so it made sense.
0:14:25 They’re giving people company cars.
0:14:26 So I had to go get a new set of wheels.
0:14:29 I had to start paying for car insurance, the vehicle purchase.
0:14:31 OK, that’s a one time expense.
0:14:34 But the insurance, that was a new recurring expense.
0:14:37 Now, if your business is location independent,
0:14:40 you might actually be able to recognize a huge cost savings
0:14:45 by relocating to a lower cost of living area or an area with lower taxes,
0:14:49 which was one of the side benefits of us moving back to Washington
0:14:54 and no income tax state from California, a notoriously high income tax state.
0:14:57 But it could also mean an opportunity to explore other parts of the world,
0:15:01 run your business from the road, play that digital nomad lifestyle for a little bit,
0:15:05 keep those expenses low, which may be one way that your costs increase or decrease
0:15:08 after you quit. I think the biggest wildcard expense
0:15:13 for the newly self-employed in the US, at least, is health insurance.
0:15:14 This is significant.
0:15:17 This is potential put a kink in your plans to quit your job
0:15:20 because this expense can be so big and someone that you definitely have
0:15:23 to account for before you make the leap.
0:15:26 You can shop around on your local state exchange,
0:15:31 but unfortunately, the options aren’t going to be great no matter where you live.
0:15:34 Robert Farrington described it in this way on our episode
0:15:37 on 10 rules to build wealth.
0:15:40 That was one of the scariest questions before making the leap
0:15:42 to first like being self-employed.
0:15:44 It’s like, what are we going to do for health insurance?
0:15:45 And it’s like a common one.
0:15:49 And honestly, we just went to the Covered California ACA exchange
0:15:51 and bought health insurance policy.
0:15:55 My wife and I joke that it is not health insurance, it’s bankruptcy insurance,
0:16:00 because we have the privilege of paying $1,500 a month for our family of four.
0:16:03 And that is for a high deductible plan.
0:16:05 So every time we go to the doctor,
0:16:09 we pay out of pocket until like I think $12,000 to you guys.
0:16:10 So you pay your premium every month.
0:16:15 So $18,000 a year and you’re going to pay another 12 grand
0:16:16 before you see any benefit from this plan.
0:16:21 Yeah. And granted, the benefit is that my cash pay price is a negotiated cash.
0:16:22 That’s so nice of them.
0:16:24 It’s so nice of them.
0:16:28 But on the flip side, it does protect you if you are in like a catastrophic
0:16:31 like where you’re really getting the benefit of this insurance is theoretically
0:16:33 if you had a really bad medical problem, right?
0:16:35 And then like millions of dollars in bills.
0:16:39 But for it really sucks on the day to day where a healthy family knock on wood
0:16:43 and like we pay a lot for not much.
0:16:45 That’s question six.
0:16:48 Get an understanding of how your costs are going to increase or decrease
0:16:50 after you quit your job.
0:16:55 Number seven is what is your realistic worst case scenario?
0:16:59 If everything suddenly comes crashing down around you, what happens?
0:17:02 How does that impact your life, your business, your livelihood?
0:17:05 I know this is kind of scary to think about it.
0:17:08 Tim Ferriss calls it fear setting, but it’s an empowering question
0:17:13 because when we really dig into it, the realistic worst case scenario
0:17:15 probably isn’t life threatening.
0:17:18 I mean, we tend to make things a bigger deal than they are.
0:17:19 People quit their jobs all the time.
0:17:21 The world keeps spinning.
0:17:24 People do it who are far less prepared than you are.
0:17:25 So you got to be honest.
0:17:26 What’s your worst case scenario?
0:17:28 You’re going to have to change your business model.
0:17:30 You’re going to have to swallow your pride, go find another job.
0:17:31 It’s not the end of the world.
0:17:34 You’re going to have to crash in mom’s basement for a little bit.
0:17:34 It’s not the end of the world.
0:17:37 This bruise to the ego, for sure.
0:17:41 But it’s all temporary and same same with success.
0:17:41 It’s all temporary, right?
0:17:43 You never know where it’s going to last.
0:17:47 My guess is you’re going to be happier having taken the chance
0:17:50 than to stay the course and wonder what if.
0:17:54 Remember, this is one of the top five regrets of people on their deathbeds.
0:17:56 There was a whole book on this topic.
0:18:00 It was I wish I’d had the courage to live a life true to myself,
0:18:03 not the life others expected of me.
0:18:06 And so that is question number seven, kind of itemizing out.
0:18:08 Well, what’s your realistic worst case scenario?
0:18:11 If this goes to zero, what am I going to do?
0:18:15 And kind of having that back in case of emergency, break glass, kind of a plan
0:18:20 there will help you be more comfortable and confident quitting your job.
0:18:25 So to summarize in this episode, number one, are you quitting to something
0:18:26 or from something?
0:18:29 I advise having something to quit to.
0:18:32 And obviously, if you’re listening to the side hustle show, my guess is that
0:18:33 it’s a profitable side hustle.
0:18:36 Number two is how much is your side hustle earning?
0:18:40 Got to validate that with real dollars before you make the leap.
0:18:44 And hopefully you have a track record where it is at least covering your fixed
0:18:48 expenses. And of course, we’ve seen some exceptions to that rule.
0:18:51 Some people quitting their job very early on that spectrum and other people
0:18:56 waiting until it was already a super, super profitable business more than even
0:18:58 sometimes my day job was making.
0:19:00 But that’s question two, how much is your side hustle earning?
0:19:02 Three, what’s your runway?
0:19:04 How many months of living expenses do you have saved up?
0:19:07 Other people will call this what’s your emergency fund?
0:19:09 But have that on lockdown.
0:19:10 Make sure you know what that number is.
0:19:15 And if you have to tap into that emergency fund that you’re going to be OK.
0:19:18 Number four is what is your sales pipeline look like?
0:19:20 Sure, you had sales coming in today.
0:19:21 Sure, you had customers today.
0:19:25 What’s next two, three, four months down the road?
0:19:27 Do you have a prediction of what revenue is going to be like there?
0:19:31 Number five is is your full time job preventing you from growing your side
0:19:34 hustle or with a little creativity?
0:19:38 Is there a way you can get more leverage out of the hours that you do have,
0:19:39 the limited hours that you do have?
0:19:43 Number six is understand how your costs are going to increase or decrease.
0:19:45 Remember, some may go up, some may go down.
0:19:49 You may recognize a huge savings if you change locations to a lower
0:19:52 cost of living area, but you may have to go plunk down for health insurance
0:19:55 that you didn’t used to have if that was covered by your employer.
0:19:59 And finally, number seven is what’s your realistic worst case scenario?
0:20:03 Being honest with yourself about what’s the worst thing that could happen.
0:20:07 And hopefully we’ll give you a little bit more freedom and confidence
0:20:10 to take that leap because remember, you’re more likely to regret
0:20:13 the chances that you didn’t take than playing the conservative route the whole time.
0:20:15 So that is it for me.
0:20:18 Thank you so much for tuning in until next time.
0:20:20 Let’s go out there and make something happen.
0:20:24 And I’ll catch you in the next edition of the side hustle show hustle on.
0:20:28 As a side hustle show listener, I know you’re driven.
0:20:29 Otherwise, you wouldn’t be here.
0:20:34 But I also know you can end up hustling and driving yourself into exhaustion,
0:20:38 overwhelm and even burnout if you don’t stay anchored to why you’re doing it.
0:20:42 That’s why I want to recommend another podcast that will massively
0:20:43 support your side hustle.
0:20:46 It’s called What Drives You with host Kevin Miller.
0:20:48 Kevin’s a former pro athlete.
0:20:51 He’s a lifelong entrepreneur who started 19 different businesses.
0:20:56 He’s a father of nine kids, an author and a mountain adventurer as well.
0:21:00 He knows both the glory and the dark side of drive and has devoted his life
0:21:03 to helping people who want to drive further, faster,
0:21:06 but also enjoy the ride every single day.
0:21:09 He brings on today’s most influential people in personal and business development
0:21:13 to see what drives them and get their guidance on the key ingredients
0:21:15 that power our own drive.
0:21:18 If you want to fully harness your drive and find peace and fulfillment in the
0:21:23 process, go find What Drives You with Kevin Miller, wherever you listen to podcasts.

0:00:04 From a side hustle to a seven figure exit, how the part time projects
0:00:07 we talk about can truly be life changing.
0:00:08 What’s up, what’s up, Nick?
0:00:09 Hello for here.
0:00:13 Welcome to the Side Hustle Show, part of the entrepreneur podcast network
0:00:18 because your nine to five may make you a living, but your five to nine makes you alive.
0:00:20 So for this one, I got to take you back in time.
0:00:22 It is 2019.
0:00:26 We hear from a couple guys on the Side Hustle Show about their little part time
0:00:27 website, that little side hustle.
0:00:32 It’s about a year old and they’re writing these in-depth product review
0:00:36 articles in these product comparison posts, this brand versus this brand,
0:00:39 that kind of thing, monetizing this site with affiliate partnerships.
0:00:43 And they’re doing around 20 grand a month, fantastic results, right?
0:00:45 For a one year old site.
0:00:48 Well, that site was finn versus finn.com.
0:00:54 And it recently sold just a few months ago actually for a seven figure sum.
0:00:56 That’s a million dollars plus for those scoring at home.
0:01:01 Now, co-founder Alex Goldberg is here to catch us up on what’s working today
0:01:06 in a volatile SEO landscape and how website owners can still position
0:01:10 themselves for success while relying less and less on organic traffic.
0:01:13 Alex, welcome back to the Side Hustle Show.
0:01:14 Thanks so much.
0:01:14 Great to be here.
0:01:15 Great to see you, Nick.
0:01:16 Absolutely.
0:01:17 Looking forward to this one.
0:01:20 If you’re tuning in, you’ve been burned by algorithm updates like a lot
0:01:22 of us have over the last few months.
0:01:26 If you make money as an affiliate or if you want to stick around in this one,
0:01:31 we’re talking about the traffic source that really saved finn versus finn.
0:01:36 We’re talking about de-risking your business and some common mistakes
0:01:37 to avoid along the way.
0:01:40 But I got to start off with the seven figure deposit.
0:01:41 What happens when that wire hits the account?
0:01:45 Obviously, it’s been a dream forever to experience that moment.
0:01:48 And that’s often why you might build a Side Hustle or build a business in general.
0:01:50 I can say it’s not super life changing.
0:01:55 Maybe if I had a few extra zeros on the end, it would be, but maybe not as well.
0:01:59 I think my role as a dad and a partner and a friend and all of that kind
0:02:01 of continues on and I like to build things.
0:02:03 So likely not going to change much.
0:02:07 But yeah, you keep refreshing that screen a few times to make sure it’s real.
0:02:08 And it’s not going away.
0:02:11 And then quickly get back to business.
0:02:15 And in my case, selling my business meant transitioning it over to new owners.
0:02:19 So there was still kind of a lot to be done, even in that exhilarating moment
0:02:21 of feeling like a millionaire, I guess.
0:02:24 Right. You see it hit, but the work isn’t quite done yet.
0:02:27 And it’s kind of it’s almost anti climactic in a way, because you’ve been
0:02:30 it’s not a surprise you’ve been building toward it probably for months
0:02:32 in terms of due diligence and negotiations and everything else.
0:02:37 But was there a treat yourself moment or do you go out and buy anything?
0:02:41 You know, it’s funny, I deferred a lot of purchases, kind of clenching
0:02:45 and making sure that it was going to be actually sold.
0:02:47 So yeah, there was a few Amazon purchases here and there,
0:02:51 things for my family that I kept saying, you know, maybe we should hold off
0:02:53 until the money hits, but I like to play golf.
0:02:56 So I plan to treat myself to a lesson and try and get better
0:02:58 and get my wife involved as well.
0:03:00 Maybe we can take lessons together.
0:03:03 OK, and yeah, we went out to a nice dinner, a closing dinner, so to speak,
0:03:05 which is really great too.
0:03:07 Yeah, business as usual is shortly thereafter.
0:03:13 It’s I don’t want to make it sound unexciting, but still, you know, work to be done.
0:03:15 I can’t hang up the jersey quite yet. Well, very good.
0:03:17 There’s always more work to be done.
0:03:19 That’s always the question of, well, what next?
0:03:21 What now? That’s sometimes the harder question to answer.
0:03:25 But I think it’s a really cool and exciting story because, hey,
0:03:30 little side hustle project started 2018, which I would have said was late
0:03:35 to the quote unquote blogging game, but still found a way to make it work
0:03:36 and make it work quite well.
0:03:40 The saving grace or maybe one of the saving graces was kind of like
0:03:44 when we earlier spoke, it was very much an SEO play.
0:03:48 We’re going to write these really in depth, long tail articles,
0:03:52 trying to make the best thing on the Internet for this specific query
0:03:57 and really help that buyer make their decision on this product versus this product.
0:03:59 Or, you know, is this thing legit? Is this going to be worthwhile?
0:04:03 And then saying, well, we could still play that game.
0:04:08 But while we’re doing that, why don’t we see if we can buy traffic profitably?
0:04:11 And it’s kind of the where we want to go in this conversation is this idea
0:04:16 of ads arbitrage and diversifying away from strictly SEO.
0:04:19 And it’s interesting because this was my 20 years ago.
0:04:22 This was like my first side hustle, very much reliant on paid traffic,
0:04:26 driving clicks to these shoe comparison, like, where can I find the best price
0:04:29 of my next pair of shoes type of pages?
0:04:32 And at that time, it was the search landscape or the paid traffic landscape
0:04:36 was a little bit different than it is today, but kind of the same model.
0:04:38 Everything old is new again.
0:04:43 Are you able to speak to when that started and how are you able to ramp it up?
0:04:45 Yeah, I had forgotten that that was your actually your first
0:04:48 side hustle or that you have some experience and that’s amazing.
0:04:50 Yeah. So a couple of years into the business,
0:04:55 we were doing well from an SEO perspective and generating a lot of organic traffic.
0:04:59 But it always felt to me like a flamingo standing on one leg
0:05:01 and just from a risk perspective, right?
0:05:06 Like maybe a big gust, a big SEO update will come and blow us over.
0:05:10 Maybe some competition will come in and that’s always the case, right?
0:05:13 Like your very best keywords, you often can only rank for so long.
0:05:16 And then a bigger publisher comes in and decides to take your cake.
0:05:19 I always just felt like diversity was the name of the game
0:05:23 and needed to figure out a new way to diversify the traffic, the earnings.
0:05:26 In thinking about that, there’s many different avenues to do so.
0:05:29 So a lot of people try and own their audience through an email list
0:05:31 or through a social media following.
0:05:34 And then I think that’s a really sound smart strategy.
0:05:39 In fact, it’s probably the way to go in today’s SEO world being as choppy as it is.
0:05:41 It’s probably the only game in town.
0:05:42 I know you do that quite well, Nick.
0:05:45 You have a large following and keep them engaged.
0:05:47 So I think that’s a really strong route.
0:05:51 But the other one, the social media game is a little weak, but the email game is OK.
0:05:52 Always room for improvement.
0:05:55 And for a time, there was an email component.
0:05:57 But it was, if I remember correctly,
0:06:01 it was kind of hard to get people searching for some super specific brand
0:06:07 named Query to join an email list about the top 10 direct to consumer health brands
0:06:09 or something was a little bit of a stretch.
0:06:10 Exactly. Yeah.
0:06:12 I think it was hard for us to find something that would be interesting enough
0:06:15 for people to follow on because it was too broad.
0:06:17 Our niche wasn’t niched down enough.
0:06:20 Yeah. So that’s also some advice for where to start.
0:06:23 I think for folks listening or interested in is my niche too big.
0:06:25 Is it too small in some ways?
0:06:27 A good way to answer that question would be, would somebody sign up
0:06:28 for an email list for this?
0:06:30 And if so, what would I talk about?
0:06:34 Because if you’re able to kind of niche it down to something that people
0:06:37 are interested in week over week, month over month, then, you know,
0:06:39 that might be worth building an audience for.
0:06:42 But in the case of in versus fin, it’s challenging.
0:06:43 We were health and wellness focus.
0:06:44 That’s very broad.
0:06:47 And what I found to be the case is that most people are interested
0:06:50 in a very specific health condition or solving a health problem.
0:06:55 So hair loss or skin care, those are really broad, but they’re starting
0:06:59 to get niched down enough to build an engaging audience that you can engage over time.
0:07:02 But staying really broad, health and wellness.
0:07:05 It was tough for us to build an audience, an owned audience, my social
0:07:09 media or email list that would be engaged and hard to know what topics
0:07:13 to continuously serve that crowd, given how broad it was.
0:07:17 So the other way that I thought I could diversify the traffic and also
0:07:20 given my experience, I’ve worked as a growth marketer and a few startups
0:07:24 and therefore had a good amount of paid ad experience.
0:07:28 So I thought, hey, why don’t I try to run some paid ads and see if maybe
0:07:31 I can make the math work out such that I buy the ads at a certain cost.
0:07:35 I drive the traffic to a landing page and I’m able to create
0:07:38 affiliate revenue that is higher than the cost of the ads.
0:07:40 So kind of an arbitrage play there.
0:07:42 And it actually seemed easier in some ways.
0:07:46 I know it sounds complicated for most people to think about that and sounds
0:07:48 risky and like you have to watch numbers all the time.
0:07:52 But it actually sounded easier for me than figuring out how I’m going
0:07:55 to get a million followers on social media or newsletter.
0:07:59 Yeah, I mean, it was easier for me starting out too.
0:08:02 It’s like, well, I don’t know anything about SEO, but I could kind of buy
0:08:04 my way to the top of the search results.
0:08:08 It’s a shortcut in a way if you can make the numbers work.
0:08:12 Exactly. So really where to start is another reason I should say it feels
0:08:16 very de-risked is you already know what keywords are working from an organic
0:08:20 perspective from a Google ads perspective or a search ads perspective.
0:08:23 You can quite literally target those exact same keywords from a paid
0:08:28 perspective and you have all the math worked out in terms of what is the
0:08:31 conversion rate on that page and what is the commission rate resulting
0:08:32 from that conversion.
0:08:36 And so you can back into the cost of ads quite easily before you even
0:08:40 spend a single dollar and you can have quite a bit of confidence that maybe
0:08:44 this is worth putting a dollar in to get one and a half dollars out or
0:08:44 something like that.
0:08:49 So it seemed like an obvious play for me at the time because I had a nice
0:08:53 set of partners and a nice set of keywords that we were already ranking
0:08:53 for organically.
0:08:57 So really trying to double down I think was the impetus was how do I get
0:08:59 more from from these keywords.
0:09:02 I already know that we’re ranking for and are quite lucrative.
0:09:07 How do I de-risk my business at the same time as double down on what’s working.
0:09:10 Yeah. Even if you are ranking organically it’s a chance to double
0:09:14 dip and take up more screen real estate on that first page even if you
0:09:16 do have to pay for some of those clicks.
0:09:19 Exactly. And the other thing I guess the other motivation was I just saw
0:09:21 other people doing this when you Google something.
0:09:24 If they’re making it work, you know why exactly.
0:09:27 And in fact, it became clear to me over time that these big publishers that I
0:09:32 was competing against the Forbes, the health lines in my case, but even big
0:09:37 newspapers, whether it’s New York Times, LA Times, Chicago Tribune, like it
0:09:38 doesn’t matter USA today.
0:09:43 All of these guys have a big paid media strategy, paid media arbitrage strategy,
0:09:47 which means that they’re buying keywords essentially and driving traffic to a
0:09:49 landing page and then making money as an affiliate.
0:09:50 Interesting.
0:09:51 And it’s primarily affiliate.
0:09:54 It’s not necessarily like a display ads play.
0:09:56 Did you ever have display ads on Finn versus Finn?
0:10:00 I did actually, but I think it’s quite hard just given the economics of the
0:10:02 display ads, how little they pay these days.
0:10:03 Right.
0:10:06 So you generally have to have like a higher ticket conversion moment, but you
0:10:09 can also include display ads on that page to help subsidize the cost.
0:10:13 So it’s not like you have to just have one monetization method, but I do think
0:10:15 that there has to be an affiliate play generally.
0:10:18 Okay. So there was some precedence for doing this.
0:10:19 Big publishers were doing this.
0:10:24 You had some background in doing it at the day job and say, okay, I think we can
0:10:29 make this work and we kind of have a sense of what a page you is going to be
0:10:30 worth on average.
0:10:34 So if we can buy traffic for less than that, then it should work out.
0:10:38 And specifically with Google, it’s, I mean, I always thought this is like the
0:10:40 greatest business model in the world.
0:10:45 Like you can bid on the exact keywords like what your customer is typing in and
0:10:49 you know, get in front of them as long as you’re willing to pay for that before
0:10:50 setting up any of the ad stuff.
0:10:55 Like what we’re using to track the page view value from an affiliate standpoint
0:10:57 on the landing pages or on the site itself.
0:11:01 At some point, our site scaled to hundreds of partners and they’re all
0:11:03 across all different affiliate platforms.
0:11:09 So impact, share a sale, partner rise, ever flow, you name it, hundreds,
0:11:10 all down the long tail.
0:11:13 If you’re just working with one partner or just a handful of partners, then
0:11:15 they’re all on the same platform.
0:11:15 It’s quite easy.
0:11:18 You can just log into the platform itself and see, you know, how many
0:11:22 commissions did you drive from that partner in a certain time range or on a
0:11:23 certain page, et cetera.
0:11:27 But if you’re promoting a bunch of different partners and they’re all on
0:11:31 different platforms, you do need a tool to aggregate all of those earnings and
0:11:35 all that data into one centralized place that you can look at every day without
0:11:35 going crazy.
0:11:37 At least I felt like I needed that.
0:11:41 So in my case, I invested in a tool called Trackonomics.
0:11:45 I guess I used a series of tools before that, but they all basically we outgrew
0:11:46 them at some point.
0:11:47 Okay.
0:11:50 I was using one or I actually still am called affluent.
0:11:54 I think affluent.io, which I think impact bought that one too, where it’s like,
0:11:57 we’re going to pull in the data from a bunch of different affiliate networks.
0:12:01 I think lasso will probably have the same functionality or similar functionality
0:12:05 to where you can pull data in from a bunch of different sources who not trying
0:12:07 to track that across 20 different logins.
0:12:08 Exactly.
0:12:08 Yeah.
0:12:10 Affluent was the one that I used as well.
0:12:12 And then they cut me off at some point.
0:12:12 It’s no longer free.
0:12:15 So I have not reached that tier yet.
0:12:18 So played at a little smaller level.
0:12:21 It’s a good problem to have, I suppose, but they do have direct access to how
0:12:22 much money you’re making.
0:12:26 So they know you can afford it, but lasso is a good one as well.
0:12:28 I’ve used that as well in the past and tinkered with it.
0:12:31 So the key here is that you do need a source of truth that’s reliable and
0:12:35 that’s pulling in from multiple affiliate platforms into one place.
0:12:37 And with that data, that’s actually really critical.
0:12:42 We can talk about it at some point in the conversation, forbid optimization and
0:12:46 passing the conversion data back into Google or whatever advertising platform
0:12:49 you’re using to help optimize the spend.
0:12:53 So it’s critical to have all this data in one place, not only for your own
0:12:56 sanity to track things and understand if you’re making money from your ads.
0:12:57 I would pause there.
0:12:59 Like, do you like giving Google that data?
0:13:04 That has always made me nervous to say, OK, a conversion is worth five bucks.
0:13:08 And you just sent me this traffic for three.
0:13:11 If I’m Google, I’m saying, hey, well, you got $2 a margin there.
0:13:14 So like, naturally, I want to increase your costs.
0:13:17 You know, kind of the basis line of your margin is my opportunity.
0:13:18 I don’t know.
0:13:22 It’s always made me nervous to give them that level of intel and how profitable
0:13:23 or not the campaign was.
0:13:27 If you aren’t a very sophisticated ad buyer, Google very likely will,
0:13:30 like with certain settings in your campaign, Google will eat your margin away.
0:13:35 But that you can also set up kind of restrictions or parameters within your
0:13:38 campaign to target a certain return on investment as an example.
0:13:39 OK.
0:13:42 Google knows that if you’re not achieving your marketing goals,
0:13:44 you will pause spend altogether.
0:13:48 So I think the incentive for them to keep the money flowing is larger
0:13:50 than for them to eat your margin.
0:13:53 Although if you don’t watch your ad spend and you leave it up to Google
0:13:57 just to spend freely, then very likely they will eat away your margin.
0:13:59 They’re happy to do that for you.
0:14:02 The M.O. seems to be to have all these like entry level employees
0:14:06 on a quarterly rotating basis, be your ads account rep.
0:14:09 And they always call you up and they’re very eager about selling you
0:14:09 on the next thing.
0:14:12 And the answer is always, well, have you tried performance max?
0:14:14 So, you know, have you tried increasing your budget?
0:14:15 It’s like, I don’t think you understand.
0:14:18 Like you said, there’s these ROI parameters we’re trying to operate in.
0:14:22 Yeah, I constantly joke with the new rep who gets inevitably gets assigned
0:14:25 to you after two months of the previous one working with you, right?
0:14:27 With no context and no handoff whatsoever.
0:14:30 At this point, I just tell them I’m really not interested in working with you.
0:14:32 I’ve really negative associations.
0:14:35 I haven’t had a great experience with most of my Google reps.
0:14:36 You’re probably an exception.
0:14:38 You’re probably great and often can provide a lot of insight.
0:14:42 But I just want to be clear that I’m not going to try a performance max campaign.
0:14:46 I’ve already run that experiment unless there’s really things that you can
0:14:48 move the needle on in the short term and that you can send me over email.
0:14:50 I’m not interested in spending the time.
0:14:52 I know it sounds really jaded.
0:14:54 Yeah, they never we got some suggestions for you.
0:14:55 We got some recommendations for your account. Cool.
0:14:57 Send them over email. No, we can’t do that.
0:14:59 Like that’s like big red flag.
0:15:00 Totally, totally.
0:15:02 And, you know, at the end of the day, you understand their incentives.
0:15:03 They’re hired sales rep.
0:15:06 They’re not a consultant that’s just there to help you.
0:15:08 They’re looking to increase your spend.
0:15:11 So almost all the recommendations are going to lead to that outcome.
0:15:16 More with Alex in just a moment, including the highest performing types of landing pages
0:15:19 you can send traffic to and the dollars and cents math it takes
0:15:23 to make this profitable in your niche right after this.
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0:16:39 OK, so would an example landing page be brand X versus brand Y, like that type
0:16:42 of comparison posts, the stuff that was ranking organically?
0:16:45 Or is it more this specific product review?
0:16:48 Where did you see the best results in sending traffic to paid wise?
0:16:52 Kind of going in line with this idea of seeing this out in the world
0:16:54 and kind of basically copying what’s working.
0:16:58 I would Google things in my niche, this brand versus that brand
0:17:02 or the best XYZ for ZYX or this review.
0:17:05 I’d Google all these things and I would see paid results.
0:17:08 And they almost always, in almost every single case,
0:17:12 the paid results landing page was a top five or top 10 landing page.
0:17:16 So just a list of links and with a few bullet points on each,
0:17:21 maybe a rating or a review, maybe a link to a review in some cases.
0:17:25 But for the most part, it was really just here’s the number one option
0:17:27 for that query at the very top of the page.
0:17:29 And then there’s four others.
0:17:33 And, you know, very likely that top option is the one that’s paying
0:17:35 the brand or the affiliate the most.
0:17:40 But in all cases or in most cases, the brand or the publisher, whoever’s
0:17:43 running these ads and creating the landing page is likely partnered
0:17:46 with all four or five of them so they don’t really care which one of them.
0:17:47 Sure. Click on.
0:17:49 But that’s the general setup of the page.
0:17:52 And you can sort of see from the economic incentives of the publisher
0:17:56 or the advertiser, the affiliate in this case, they want to give you
0:17:59 a lot of options, but make it easy for you to choose one of them.
0:18:02 And that’s how the math is going to work out for them to outlay
0:18:04 that I’d spend in the beginning.
0:18:08 OK. And did you end up creating separate pages, paid landing pages versus organics?
0:18:12 Like, maybe I don’t need 3,000 words of copy if I really just want somebody
0:18:14 to click this thing from an ad landing page.
0:18:16 Yeah, exactly.
0:18:19 Thinking about it more as a landing page rather than content is key.
0:18:23 So really, really separate work streams and in the indexed rather
0:18:26 than sort of in the Google index and getting muddied or not muddy,
0:18:31 but basically and not having a clear transparency on where the traffic
0:18:33 is coming from and where the conversions are coming from.
0:18:38 So so really creating a separate page just for paid that has as few exit
0:18:41 ramps as possible, except for to the affiliate partners.
0:18:45 So you’re likely trimming down the navigational bar at the top,
0:18:49 likely minimizing the footer in the bottom, definitely minimizing
0:18:52 the content on the page other than just what is needed to get somebody
0:18:55 to understand their options, choose the one that’s best for them
0:18:59 and then go on to that partner and do a little bit more research on the road.
0:19:01 OK, did you ever get in trouble?
0:19:06 Like my ad account early on for the shoe business would occasionally
0:19:09 get slapped for being like a bridge page account.
0:19:13 They say the sole purpose of your landing page is to drive traffic
0:19:15 to another page, another site.
0:19:19 And it’s like, well, yeah, that’s how I get paid.
0:19:21 I don’t know, they wanted something else.
0:19:24 We would have to rework the landing pages every now and again,
0:19:26 and like try and add more content.
0:19:31 And it was all going to be template driven or what you might call programmatic
0:19:34 because it’s like, well, there’s 100,000 pairs of shoes or 300,000 pairs of shoes.
0:19:37 Like we’re not going to write an individual article for all this stuff.
0:19:41 So we’re going to have to pull that copy from the feeds,
0:19:44 from the product catalogs provided by the retailers in a lot of cases.
0:19:47 Is that still a thing or they are less strict about that now?
0:19:49 Maybe I just didn’t start it early enough,
0:19:52 but I haven’t ever gotten that block from Google.
0:19:55 Yeah, in general, they’ve been pretty happy to take the ad spend
0:19:57 and even help you increase it right through the account reps.
0:20:02 It’s sometimes been hard to describe to the account reps exactly what the flow is.
0:20:07 And the fact that a conversion doesn’t happen on my side, it happens on a third party site.
0:20:11 It’s hard sometimes for the Google rep or for internal teams at Google
0:20:14 to understand this flow, but in general, it’s become so common,
0:20:17 which is surprising if they’ve got Forbes in New York Times,
0:20:18 they’ve got other big publishers doing the same thing.
0:20:24 It’s become so common now that I think it’s no longer on their list of not allowed kind of advertising.
0:20:27 There are some restrictions and I can get into that specifically on brand names
0:20:30 in my niche on drug names.
0:20:35 You’re not allowed to bid on drug names, things like Viagra or Finasteride for hair loss.
0:20:38 You cannot bid on those keywords unless you’re a pharmacy.
0:20:41 So you need a specific kind of certification called legit script,
0:20:45 which costs tens of thousands of dollars a year and you have to be a real pharmacy.
0:20:50 You can’t just be a normal person paying this money and then going to town and bidding on drug names.
0:20:53 So there are some restrictions like in that case, you could go a little bit broader.
0:20:58 You could say, you know, the best hair loss products or the best things to prevent hair loss is something like that.
0:20:59 Exactly. Yeah.
0:21:05 As long as you’re being broad enough, things like even like a rectile dysfunction,
0:21:07 like even just the condition itself.
0:21:11 But as long as you’re not specifically talking about the brand in some cases
0:21:14 or the drug name, the actual kind of technical drug name.
0:21:16 But I think there are other restrictions.
0:21:17 Just to be clear, it depends on your niche.
0:21:19 I think that there are likely other restrictions.
0:21:22 I know you can’t bid on things like CBD.
0:21:24 There’s restrictions there.
0:21:30 And there’s also federal restrictions against discrimination in real estate and housing.
0:21:32 So there’s protected categories, so to speak.
0:21:34 And you have to every niche is a little bit different.
0:21:40 But the restriction around brand names is both on the Google side in some cases,
0:21:42 as well as the affiliate partners themselves.
0:21:47 So the brands themselves may not be super happy for you to be bidding on their brand name
0:21:50 and therefore driving up their own cost of ads, right?
0:21:51 Because it’s an auction system.
0:21:56 So if I bid up a lot on a brand’s brand name, they are likely paying a higher cost
0:21:58 on their own brand name as well.
0:22:00 And so brands can be quite particular about that.
0:22:04 And it will require some persuading, essentially, to convince them
0:22:08 that the conversions you’re driving them are incremental and that it’s still worthwhile
0:22:12 to allow you the third party affiliate to bid on their brand name.
0:22:15 OK, because that’s something I see very, very commonly.
0:22:16 Here’s our affiliate terms and conditions.
0:22:20 No paid traffic bidding on anything related to our brand name.
0:22:24 We don’t want you to jump in front of that traffic that they, in theory,
0:22:27 were going to get anyways if somebody was looking for that stuff.
0:22:32 And so it’s kind of this you open the negotiation to say, I do this, I do this.
0:22:34 Well, it’s going to be incremental.
0:22:36 I mean, you show them some.
0:22:40 How do you convince somebody to say, OK, we’ll make an exception for Finn versus Finn?
0:22:45 The amount of objections or the objections that you’ll get to brand bidding,
0:22:49 they call it TM plus, trademark plus bidding in general, or myriad.
0:22:53 There’s a number of reasons why brands are not very interested in you doing that.
0:22:56 They generally come down to you’re driving up the cost of my ads.
0:22:58 It’s not brand safe.
0:23:02 So we don’t want you as a third party to be discussing us.
0:23:05 We want to just have the control over how our brand is presented.
0:23:08 And then this idea of incrementality, which you mentioned, which is like,
0:23:09 we’re going to get those anyway.
0:23:12 So regardless of you drive up the cost, regardless of what you say, if it’s safe,
0:23:16 we have a feeling we’re going to get those anyway, so we don’t want to pay for you for them.
0:23:18 That’s kind of the broad based ones.
0:23:22 And I’ve been quite successful in convincing brands that there is a space
0:23:25 between all of those concerns, which are very valid and legit.
0:23:28 And then there’s a very narrow space, but there’s a space between that.
0:23:32 And what actually I as a third party affiliate
0:23:37 can be more successful in promoting than they can be promoting it themselves.
0:23:40 So an example of that would be comparison content, right?
0:23:43 Like this brand versus that brand.
0:23:49 Will the average consumer be more persuaded by one of those brands
0:23:53 screaming from the hilltop, saying, yes, I am so good compared to my competitors.
0:23:54 I am the best.
0:23:57 Yeah, this is really going to be an unbiased article that is coming from our domain.
0:23:59 Right. Exactly. Like we are the best.
0:24:00 We know we’re the best.
0:24:01 The other people are horrible.
0:24:05 Is that going to resonate with people or is it going to be more plausible,
0:24:10 more authentic, more reasonable to hear from a third party saying, hey,
0:24:13 we’ve done the research, we’ve compared all of the top options.
0:24:15 And after all of that time,
0:24:18 we actually think that option A is the best for this kind of person.
0:24:21 And option B is the best for another kind of person that seems more credible.
0:24:24 It actually is more helpful to the user than it’s biased,
0:24:27 but it’s less biased than the brand talking about it themselves.
0:24:30 I think that’s actually a really sound argument.
0:24:33 I’m not just saying that because it was lucrative or that it’s a good strategy.
0:24:35 I think that’s actually the case.
0:24:38 And a lot of brands can be convinced to at least try it out.
0:24:42 The other way I’ve talked brands off the cliff is to say, you know what?
0:24:45 You’re worried about the price of ads increasing.
0:24:46 You’re worried about me bidding on your brand name
0:24:49 or other key terms that you’re bidding on.
0:24:54 And you’re worried about that inflating the costs because more advertiser entering the auction.
0:24:56 Well, why don’t we just test it?
0:24:59 Why don’t we just run it for three weeks and see how much your ads go up
0:25:02 and how many conversions you get and how many conversions I get.
0:25:05 And we’ll just do a quick look and see, you know,
0:25:09 is this did you get net more conversions for the same amount of costs?
0:25:12 Like what the cost proposition is it the same as it was before?
0:25:13 But what’s the total number of conversions?
0:25:16 Like we’ll just run the test and almost inevitably,
0:25:18 almost, I think with very few exceptions,
0:25:21 the test came out in our favor to say that, yeah,
0:25:25 this is a good activity to invest in and spend money on from the brand’s perspective.
0:25:28 So yeah, there’s a couple of ways to sort of not take no,
0:25:31 an immediate no as the answer and instead continue the conversation
0:25:34 and see test into it or persuade the brand
0:25:37 that this is a worthwhile use of their time and effort.
0:25:42 Yeah, one thing that is fascinating to me in the world of paid ads
0:25:47 is a lot of these bigger companies will have pretty strict monthly budgets.
0:25:52 Like, oh, maybe we’re only allocated 100 grand a month for Google Span
0:25:55 and we blow through it by the 25th of the month.
0:26:00 And so those last five or six days are like wide open for the affiliates.
0:26:02 And it’s like, if you were buying profitable traffic,
0:26:05 what difference does it make if you spend 100 or 115?
0:26:08 If your cost per acquisition was fine at 100.
0:26:09 It just didn’t make any sense.
0:26:12 But it’s like the bureaucracy of some of these bigger companies
0:26:16 where smaller publishers can be more nimble, more thoughtful,
0:26:17 and especially at the end of the month,
0:26:20 maybe the auctions become less competitive, you get cheaper clicks.
0:26:21 Have you ever seen anything like that happen?
0:26:24 The bureaucracy can both work for you and against you, right?
0:26:26 There’s many cases where you convince somebody internally
0:26:30 that this is a great idea and they’re really gung-ho, but you can’t get it.
0:26:35 Approved by the brand safety team or the PR team or somebody else,
0:26:38 some other stakeholder who doesn’t see this as a good use of funds.
0:26:40 So the bureaucracy can work against you.
0:26:42 And in some cases, yeah, there are opportunities.
0:26:44 There’s some seasonality is what I’d call it,
0:26:49 where there can be a feasting opportunity, you know, less advertisers in the auction,
0:26:52 more activity on the conversion side and earnings go way up,
0:26:57 as well as sort of winters where it’s like, wow, everybody is advertising
0:27:00 at a certain time of year, usually Black Friday, Cyber Monday,
0:27:03 kind of end of the year is like the peak of advertising,
0:27:06 at least in my health and wellness niche.
0:27:10 In those cases, sometimes the cost of ads gets prohibitive for arbitrage.
0:27:12 It’s too expensive.
0:27:14 And there’s no matter how much you’re making on the back end,
0:27:15 you’re not going to be able to cover your costs.
0:27:17 So there’s highs and lows to this as well.
0:27:20 Yeah, talk to me about the math side of it.
0:27:24 Like the expected earnings minus the cost per click.
0:27:27 What’s a typical cost per click?
0:27:28 Like what’s a page you worth?
0:27:31 Is there a target ROI, obviously, the higher the better?
0:27:34 Like what are you looking at on the dollars and cents side of it?
0:27:35 It really is niche specific.
0:27:39 So in some cases, we sort of talked about it in the very early stage.
0:27:41 Like maybe there’s a niche where the traffic is so cheap,
0:27:44 it’s so uncompetitive that you could actually arbitrage
0:27:46 through a display ad or something like that.
0:27:47 That may be possible, I don’t know.
0:27:53 In my particular case, essentially the formula you want to work on
0:27:56 or make work is expected earnings per click.
0:27:59 And that has to match the CPC or it has to be higher
0:28:02 than the cost per click to your landing page.
0:28:06 And there’s one extra step in your calculation for each of those sides.
0:28:10 So your expected earnings per click would be whatever your
0:28:12 click-through rate on the ad is times the click-through rate
0:28:15 from your landing page to a partner times the conversion rate
0:28:18 with that partner times the commission you get.
0:28:22 So in a normal flow, you have to maybe subtract one of those
0:28:24 conversion rates because the conversion is happening on your site.
0:28:26 But if it’s happening on a third party site,
0:28:28 you have to add in the click-through rate to the third party site.
0:28:31 That’s an extra bit of math that a lot of people miss.
0:28:33 But OK. Yeah.
0:28:36 So if I have the top 10 hair loss products,
0:28:41 maybe two thirds of the people are going to click on option number one
0:28:44 and something like that and say, OK, the expected earnings per click
0:28:46 for that is two dollars and fifty cents or something.
0:28:48 Yeah, yeah, exactly.
0:28:50 So in my case, just to make the math a little bit more firm,
0:28:54 our average CPC is actually quite high because we’re in a health and
0:28:57 wellness, your money, your life category, with a ton of competition.
0:29:02 An average click is anywhere from say three to six dollars, right?
0:29:04 It’s the range can do a lot.
0:29:06 So you better be pretty certain that for that visitor,
0:29:09 they’re going to click through and a high rate click through again
0:29:11 and then at a high rate convert and that the commission is there.
0:29:13 And ultimately, by the thing, wow.
0:29:16 Yeah. So it can work in really competitive arenas as well.
0:29:18 You don’t have to think about this as just being like,
0:29:20 if there’s competition, this is kaput.
0:29:21 That’s fascinating.
0:29:23 I was buying shoe clicks for like 25 cents.
0:29:26 And so it’s like, oh, three dollars a click.
0:29:29 Like, oh, I really got to have that landing page dialed in for sure.
0:29:29 Yeah, for sure.
0:29:32 You want to make sure that you have high confidence before you spend your first
0:29:35 dollar and that you’re then your landing page is pretty dialed in.
0:29:38 Luckily, there’s lots of good examples to copy from.
0:29:41 But one other thought I had is because you were kind of describing
0:29:44 how you would do the math, what is your expected to click through?
0:29:46 What is your expected earning rates for this partner?
0:29:48 And then this partner and then this partner, that is true.
0:29:52 That’s ultimately like the ultimate formula that you’re trying to optimize for.
0:29:54 But what I like to do to keep it really simple
0:29:58 is to try and make the math work out just for that number one spot.
0:30:01 If you can break even with or you can make the math work out
0:30:04 such that you’re breaking even just with that first partner,
0:30:06 that position in who’s in number one.
0:30:10 That means anybody who clicks on position two through five or two through 10
0:30:13 and generates some commission is just profit.
0:30:14 It’s just gravy.
0:30:15 So if you have it, if the math working out,
0:30:19 it’s more conservative to model it out by a break even point
0:30:23 with just that first partner or that position one partner
0:30:25 and everything else is gravy. Yeah. OK, OK.
0:30:30 And then is there a target like I’m going to trade a dollar for two dollars
0:30:33 or trade a dollar for a buck fifty like where you feel like to play and like,
0:30:35 OK, if I’m at this number, I’m really going to scale up that campaign
0:30:39 to the extent that Google will take my money there or there’s search volume there
0:30:43 versus like I want to tweak some things and optimize it
0:30:47 because there’s it becomes a cash flow challenge, perhaps
0:30:50 because you got to pay Google now or they’re going to swipe your card now
0:30:53 for the ads and you’re like, well, am I going to get paid from that affiliate
0:30:57 for 36 days, like depends on their different payout terms.
0:31:01 In the beginning, I just started as like, can I break even or can I make 10 percent profit?
0:31:04 Like, I don’t really know what the profit margin is.
0:31:08 In our case, it became evergreen at kind of 25, 30 percent.
0:31:11 And at different times of year, you could get up to like almost 100 percent.
0:31:15 So basically, like for every dollar you’re putting in, you’re getting two dollars out
0:31:17 or like really, really incredible.
0:31:21 Yeah. And so at that point, you’re like, I want to step on the gas as much as possible.
0:31:23 But there’s a law of diminishing marginal returns, obviously.
0:31:27 So the more money you spend in advertising inevitably, at some point,
0:31:31 the less efficient it gets that incremental spend for the next dollar.
0:31:33 It’s not going to go as far as like, say, the first dollar went.
0:31:36 But it’s hard to know where the ceiling is.
0:31:38 In some cases, there’s not a lot of search volume.
0:31:40 And so you know exactly where the ceiling is.
0:31:43 There’s only so many queries, only so many lucrative queries.
0:31:46 And you’re going to cap out on those pretty quickly.
0:31:50 But in the case of like best hair loss product or something,
0:31:53 I mean, there’s like practically infinite number of queries.
0:31:58 And so the question is, is there a certain profit margin where I maximize my profit?
0:32:03 If the profit margin held firm, then I would want to spend as much as possible
0:32:05 to maximize that overall profit.
0:32:08 But knowing that the profit margin decreases as you spend.
0:32:10 So there’s kind of like this efficiency point.
0:32:16 Yeah, kind of curve, you know, go back to like economics 101 in college or something.
0:32:20 There’s maybe some math around that, but there’s a lot of variables as well.
0:32:25 The cost of ads, the products offered and the brand awareness of each of those products
0:32:26 and the price points of each of those products.
0:32:28 And those are all changing throughout the year, right?
0:32:31 I mean, so my point is, is like, there’s a lot of variables there.
0:32:33 It’s hard to know.
0:32:36 Yeah. I mean, meanwhile, like my chasing preferred,
0:32:40 one of these cards is like triple points on ad spend up to a certain limit every year.
0:32:42 It’s like, oh, flying for free, baby.
0:32:45 If I can spend money profitably, that’s amazing.
0:32:45 Yeah, exactly.
0:32:48 And so going back to the cash flow discussion really fast.
0:32:52 So typically, you know, the affiliate terms so that you get paid out,
0:32:55 30 days would be pretty typical, but often it’ll extend into 60.
0:32:58 The thing about a credit card is the card is charged today,
0:33:00 but you’re not expected to pay it for about 30 days.
0:33:04 So in some ways, without paying a fee or without paying interest, right?
0:33:06 Those things kind of line up.
0:33:11 It is true that you need a little bit of working capital to start this process, right?
0:33:15 You have to be able to risk or wager a few thousand dollars in the beginning.
0:33:16 You might lose it all, right?
0:33:17 That’s sort of like gambling.
0:33:20 But if you can figure it out, if you’re willing to iterate a bit
0:33:25 and then you figure something out, the gold at the end of the rainbow is like, wow,
0:33:27 this thing is scalable and it’s evergreen.
0:33:30 And for every dollar I put in, I get one and a half dollars or two dollars back.
0:33:33 And I’m not relying on organic algorithm.
0:33:35 Yeah, you’re just breathing a little easier.
0:33:38 Every time there’s an algorithm update, you’re not freaking out,
0:33:40 hitting refresh on the reports.
0:33:41 Like, did I get hammered on this one? Yeah.
0:33:45 Yeah, there is a cash flow crunch or like a cash flow thing to manage here.
0:33:48 But it’s not as challenging as e-commerce, for instance,
0:33:50 where you have to sort of front load all of your inventory spend
0:33:53 and hope that somebody buys it over the next 12 months.
0:33:54 Sure. Yeah.
0:33:57 There are more capital intensive businesses to be sure.
0:34:02 More with Alex in just a moment, including possibly the most amazing affiliate strategy.
0:34:04 I’d never heard of before right after this.
0:34:09 One thing that you mentioned was going a little bit higher in the funnel,
0:34:13 especially for the brands that are somewhat restricted on trademark bidding.
0:34:18 And it could be best hair loss products or even just hair loss or erectile dysfunction.
0:34:21 Like somebody just kind of in their beginning research phases
0:34:24 or like they may or may not be ready to buy.
0:34:27 I got to hope that the cost per clicks are lower for that kind of stuff
0:34:30 because I imagine the conversion rates would be lower too.
0:34:33 Yeah. Is it even worthwhile to play in that space?
0:34:34 Because it’s like very early research phase.
0:34:37 Yeah. I mean, it just depends on how things are cookieed
0:34:41 and how people are shopping for a particular product in a particular niche.
0:34:45 I won’t say it’s impossible or it’ll never work to hire up the funnel you go.
0:34:48 But I do think that you want to start as low in the funnel as possible.
0:34:52 And you want to understand these keywords have already been working for me,
0:34:53 right, from an organic perspective.
0:34:55 So that’s where you start.
0:34:59 You don’t start like, let me go really high up and then middle and then bottom and see what works.
0:35:02 I don’t know. Start with what you know works and then expand from there.
0:35:06 And that will deep risk your ad spend outlay.
0:35:11 Yeah. Because for me, it was shoes would have been horribly unprofitable.
0:35:13 Women’s shoes would have been horribly unprofitable.
0:35:20 Women’s running shoes, best women’s running shoes, all the way down to like new balance model XYZ.
0:35:22 Like it would have to be super, super specific for it to work.
0:35:24 That makes a lot of sense.
0:35:25 Like start at the bottom of the funnel.
0:35:28 Start with what you know is going to convert high buyer intent type of stuff
0:35:33 and then see if you can crawl your way up and to the point about affiliate cookies.
0:35:35 Like, is it going to be a three month cookie?
0:35:39 If somebody clicks on your link and ultimately converts, like, OK, that’s cool.
0:35:40 You’re still going to get credit for that.
0:35:44 But again, you got to pay for that click up front, maybe a while before you see
0:35:46 the eventual conversion down the road.
0:35:51 The other thing I want to ask about is Google is one ads platform.
0:35:55 High search intent target the exact keywords that you’re looking for.
0:35:59 You play around with Facebook ads at all for Fin versus Fin as well.
0:36:00 Just a little bit.
0:36:04 So it’s harder to make work on Facebook for a couple reasons.
0:36:05 One is the creative.
0:36:09 It’s actually easy now to create visual creatives with Generative AI
0:36:11 and the Canva and all these tools, right?
0:36:14 But historically, it’s been more challenging, at least for someone like me,
0:36:18 who’s not a designer or very design inclined, a text ad in Google is easier
0:36:21 to manage than a Facebook ad, basically, ad campaign.
0:36:23 So that’s why I always skewed there.
0:36:26 And also, there’s generally higher intent on Google or search platforms.
0:36:30 Somebody is actively typing something in the bar to actively find an answer
0:36:33 or a product on Facebook or Instagram or TikTok.
0:36:37 They are going there to be entertained and to zone out and avoid procrastinating a bit.
0:36:39 They can be convinced to take action.
0:36:44 Don’t get me wrong, people make huge brands and lots of sales on these social platforms.
0:36:46 But it’s lower intent.
0:36:47 There’s no question.
0:36:49 And I would say start with search.
0:36:50 That’s pretty smart.
0:36:54 We did end up moving over to the metaproperties and dabbling a bit there.
0:36:58 The motion that we really saw a lot of success with is called social white listing.
0:37:03 So for anyone who’s not familiar, the idea is that you’re able to give
0:37:07 your brand partners access to advertise using your handles.
0:37:11 So your Facebook page or your Instagram account and serve ads
0:37:15 that look like they’re coming from you, but they’re actually managed
0:37:19 and the ad spend and the targeting and the creative is all managed by the brand.
0:37:20 The advertiser itself.
0:37:23 Dang, that sounds amazing.
0:37:26 If somebody else is going to run ads through your affiliate link,
0:37:27 where’s the lose in that?
0:37:28 Where could he go wrong?
0:37:29 Exactly. Yeah.
0:37:31 And you know, a lot of people, if you’re on social media,
0:37:35 you’ve likely seen these ads and they can come from big influencers,
0:37:37 but they can also come from small publishers like Vin versus Finn.
0:37:42 It’s a similar concept to what we were talking about before in the paid search space
0:37:46 where in a versus query, for instance, the user will find it more credible
0:37:51 to read an answer from a credible third party than they will from the brand itself.
0:37:55 And so it’s leveraging this third party, this I should say,
0:37:57 that’s the same motion just on Facebook.
0:38:01 But the difference is that you don’t have to run the ads for the brand.
0:38:04 The brand can run their own ads because they’re doing that anyway.
0:38:07 Every single brand out there is running Facebook or meta ads.
0:38:11 You give them access and then they select a new handle to run the ads from.
0:38:15 Instead of running ads from their own handle, they’re running it from your affiliate handle.
0:38:18 And yeah, it’s all paid traffic going to your site.
0:38:22 And so it’s diversifying your overall traffic source mix,
0:38:24 as well as your revenue mix, and it’s very hands off.
0:38:25 How do I sign up for this?
0:38:28 Like, what’s the conversation look like with Rayon XYZ to say,
0:38:30 have I got a deal for you?
0:38:33 You’re going to run paid ads through my affiliate channel.
0:38:36 And the users are going to find it more credible.
0:38:37 How do I even wrote that subject? It sounds awesome.
0:38:38 It sounds crazy, right?
0:38:40 Like, it sounds like I just made it up.
0:38:42 But actually, this has been going on again.
0:38:43 I wasn’t the first person to pioneer this.
0:38:45 This I just noticed it happening.
0:38:47 And then I started to ask the brands if they’re interested in it.
0:38:48 And you’d be shocked.
0:38:51 I mean, depending on how fast that brand is looking to grow,
0:38:55 depending on how much they’re spending on meta today, which probably is a lot.
0:38:56 You’d be surprised.
0:38:58 OK, they are kind of started.
0:38:59 So maybe that’s a starting point.
0:39:01 Look for the brands that are already spending money to the extent
0:39:04 that you could see them in your feed, or you could see there’s probably
0:39:07 estimator tools to see what they’re spending or what their ads look like.
0:39:09 Yeah, the Facebook ad library, it’s a free tool.
0:39:11 You just Google it, Facebook ad library.
0:39:13 You type in the geography that you’re interested in.
0:39:16 And the brand that you’re interested in it will show you all the ads
0:39:18 that they’re running currently in for the last few months.
0:39:21 So you can see both like, OK, are they running it from their own account?
0:39:23 Are they running it from third party handles?
0:39:27 You can also just see, are they really active on Facebook or meta in general?
0:39:31 I think it’s fair to assume that if a brand is big, if a brand is growing,
0:39:32 they are very active on meta.
0:39:35 It’s basically table stakes at this point for any growth team.
0:39:38 So I think it’s fair to say, like, hey, you’re already running
0:39:40 meta ads, have you tried social white listing?
0:39:43 Depending on their experience, they may be very well versed in it.
0:39:44 They may not understand it.
0:39:46 You explain to them how it works.
0:39:49 And again, you sort of position it as a test while we don’t know that it works.
0:39:53 And this would be reaching out to you or like starting with your affiliate manager?
0:39:54 Yes, exactly.
0:39:56 Whomever is met, your point of contact at the brand.
0:40:00 Just kind of to go back to the Google side of things that I wanted to mention.
0:40:02 There’s another way, another part of this, because we’re talking about how
0:40:07 to persuade partners and brands to get on board with this and then how to sort
0:40:08 of de-risk your initial spend.
0:40:12 One of the interesting things that I found, especially with high growth partners,
0:40:15 so brands that are really looking to grow fast and willing to experiment.
0:40:16 That’s a lot of brands these days.
0:40:20 It’s not like a unique, a fairly unique thing is that you can say, hey,
0:40:25 I would like to find this win-win situation where I’m going to drive you
0:40:28 a bunch of conversions on Google or Facebook.
0:40:33 But in order to potentially find this evergreen fountain of revenue
0:40:38 and traffic and conversions, I need to test with some ad spend.
0:40:42 And so would you be willing to, I don’t know, spend $2,000, $3,000 on ads
0:40:44 to fund this experiment and see if it works.
0:40:48 And $2,000 or $3,000 sounds like a lot to an individual side hustler
0:40:50 or to somebody running a small business.
0:40:56 But to a brand, $2,000 or $3,000 is what they paid some small influencer
0:40:58 to create a post one time.
0:40:59 It’s like a rounding error in many cases.
0:41:05 OK, so to pause, that would be if you were starting out your own ad campaign,
0:41:09 but kind of reaching out like, look, I want to find this long term evergreen
0:41:11 campaign, but it’s going to take a little bit of budget.
0:41:13 Would you help me with the startup costs?
0:41:16 Would you help me ramp this up without hearing that correctly?
0:41:16 Yeah, yeah.
0:41:19 So you can think about it for both platforms.
0:41:23 So in the case of Google, you as the affiliate will have to outlay the cash first.
0:41:27 And so in order to de-risk it further, you can ask the brand,
0:41:30 hey, would you be willing to sort of reimburse me for that ad spend?
0:41:32 And then we’ll learn together, basically.
0:41:35 But the prize at the end of the rainbow, as I mentioned,
0:41:39 is like we find this evergreen, scalable, mutually beneficial channel.
0:41:41 But on the Facebook side, it’s similar.
0:41:44 You can if there’s any pushback to that for social why listing, you can just say,
0:41:47 well, how about you just start with a very small spend on your end?
0:41:49 Just to test it, just to see if it works.
0:41:50 Don’t go crazy.
0:41:51 We’re not asking to get married.
0:41:55 We’re asking for the first date, you know, let’s just see if this works.
0:41:58 I mean, I think it works for a lot of your competitors.
0:42:01 Here are a bunch of screenshots of your competitors running similar
0:42:03 campaigns for months and months and months.
0:42:05 Do you think that they’re running them unprofitably for a bunch of months?
0:42:06 I doubt it.
0:42:07 Yeah, gosh, I never know.
0:42:10 Like I’m going to be paying much closer attention to the ads that I see.
0:42:12 If you’re like, oh, is this a social whitelist ad?
0:42:15 I had no idea this was a thing.
0:42:16 This is fascinating.
0:42:18 Yeah. Once you know about it, you don’t stop seeing it.
0:42:20 It’s everywhere.
0:42:23 Those disclosures as well, like you should say that it’s a partnership
0:42:27 and you should say that it’s you want to be up front with people on the ad itself.
0:42:30 But there’s a lot of blindness to that on social media as well.
0:42:33 So that doesn’t necessarily impact the conversion rates on the social
0:42:34 whitelisting side.
0:42:37 You’ll it’s really one of the surprising things I learned is just how nasty
0:42:40 the comments are on Facebook or any social platform for that matter.
0:42:42 So you run these ads, right?
0:42:46 And they’re like, you give a brand permission to run ads using your social
0:42:48 handle and they start running these ads.
0:42:52 And if you don’t have somebody on their side managing the comments,
0:42:54 it doesn’t matter what the ad is.
0:42:58 It can be the most innocuous thing ever, but people will get vicious
0:43:01 in the comments, just absolutely vicious.
0:43:03 And so if you don’t have somebody either on your side
0:43:06 or usually it’s on the brand side managing those comments
0:43:09 and responding to the angry people and boosting the happy people,
0:43:13 you will get this polarized like, wow, that thing is so fake
0:43:15 and it’s never going to work for anyone.
0:43:18 And oh, my gosh, this like helped me become the best version of myself.
0:43:20 Kind of dichotomy.
0:43:22 It’s actually pretty hilarious.
0:43:27 Interesting. Now, this was years ago, but I heard, you know, rather than
0:43:30 delete the hater comments, rather than delete the negative comments,
0:43:34 kind of engage, like send that engagement signal back to Facebook that, oh, man,
0:43:36 people are really into this ad.
0:43:40 Maybe they were not reading sentiment at that point where you are on that.
0:43:43 For the most part, if it’s not being managed, so if I see a brand doing nothing,
0:43:46 then I’ll ping them and be like, hey, we need to figure something out.
0:43:48 Like this can’t go unattended.
0:43:51 But I think the best strategy is kind of what you’re saying.
0:43:54 You want to respond and show that you’re helpful, be like, oh, you know,
0:43:58 I really respect that opinion, but also respectfully disagree.
0:43:59 Just a small pushback.
0:44:02 But for the most part, you’re saying I respect.
0:44:04 You’re not like looking to brawl on a Facebook comment.
0:44:09 You’re just looking to acknowledge that you’re there and that person has been heard, basically.
0:44:12 All right. Yeah, I love reading the comments on different ads
0:44:16 because it is exactly how you describe some people say, hey, this changed my life.
0:44:18 And other people like, this is 100 percent a scam.
0:44:20 Like, well, the truth is probably somewhere in the middle.
0:44:22 Exactly. Yeah. Yeah.
0:44:24 So this is an interesting phenomenon there.
0:44:27 One of the common pitfalls, I would say, for social whitelisting, but
0:44:31 overall, just to summarize, social whitelisting is an extremely easy thing to turn on.
0:44:33 It’s a few clicks.
0:44:35 It’s persuading a partner that they want to try it.
0:44:37 And then it is just a few clicks.
0:44:40 And then the ball is in your partner’s court to drive paid traffic to your site.
0:44:41 It’s amazing.
0:44:45 On the paid search side, there’s quite a bit of setup.
0:44:49 There’s a lot of nuance to both getting it off the ground as well as
0:44:52 getting it to scale up and then getting it to stay consistently profitable.
0:44:57 So it’s harder, but I would also say, in my mind, it’s easier than
0:44:59 building a large email list in many cases.
0:45:03 So it just depends kind of what you’re good at, what your orientation is,
0:45:06 where you want to spend your time and potentially risk your dollars as well.
0:45:13 Yeah. The analytical brain side of me really likes it from the standpoint of
0:45:19 shortcutting the path to traffic to, okay, if I put a dollar in, can I get a buck fifty out?
0:45:24 And then tweaking and optimizing all aspects of the campaign and the landing page,
0:45:26 like that sounds really fun.
0:45:29 And then kind of the negotiation side of it, like trying to develop these win-win
0:45:32 partnerships, I think it makes a lot of sense.
0:45:36 Any other common mistakes or pitfalls or even expensive mistakes that
0:45:38 you ended up making along the way?
0:45:40 I tried to de-risk things as much as possible.
0:45:45 So I don’t have any stories of just like, wow, I turned this thing on,
0:45:47 and I jacked up the spend, and I stopped watching it.
0:45:49 And then 10 days later, I lost my shirt.
0:45:53 So luckily, I don’t have any experiences of that.
0:45:57 I’ve definitely had partners be upset about the keywords that we’re bidding on,
0:46:03 and basically told us to change our course, either to stop or to, in most cases,
0:46:06 they just say, hey, please stop bidding on this keyword.
0:46:10 And in some cases, they would say, we agreed, these are in our terms of service,
0:46:13 and it’ll be very kind of threatening the language there.
0:46:15 But in every case, I’ve been able to say, I’m really sorry,
0:46:17 like, ask for forgiveness.
0:46:18 It’s immediately paused.
0:46:21 Let’s figure out a path forward that works for both sides.
0:46:25 And a lot of cases, it can be unintentional, because Google to their credit
0:46:29 is trying to like broad match your search terms in a lot of cases.
0:46:33 And unless you specifically add that brand term as a negative keyword,
0:46:36 you might still show up, even if you weren’t intentionally trying to bid on it.
0:46:37 Totally true.
0:46:38 Yeah, exactly.
0:46:40 They’re constantly broadening your match types.
0:46:42 Depending on how much control you give them, they will, like we said,
0:46:46 before eat away all the margin and spend all your dollars unprofitably.
0:46:51 So I’m curious, just going back to your dabbling in this category.
0:46:54 It was your first side hustle or one of your early hustles.
0:46:58 Why did you stop or what killed that business for you?
0:47:01 It sounded like you had some success early on, and maybe you found bigger
0:47:03 and better things to do, just kind of curious.
0:47:08 Yeah, it was over the course of nine years, the margin in between that cost of traffic
0:47:11 and what that traffic was worth in terms of the affiliate conversion,
0:47:14 like that margin got narrower and narrower and narrower,
0:47:17 and it became kind of a challenging place to play.
0:47:24 And it was a mistake of mine and not learning SEO earlier or not reinvesting
0:47:28 some of those earlier profits into diversifying traffic sources.
0:47:31 Like you said, I want to de-risk this as much as I can,
0:47:33 but I was still very much reliant on that one traffic source,
0:47:35 and it became less profitable over time.
0:47:36 Yeah, it makes sense.
0:47:37 You had the reverse course, right?
0:47:40 You were like, “I want to de-risk away from paid media.”
0:47:44 I was like, “I want to diversify into paid media.”
0:47:45 Yeah, because it depends where you start.
0:47:46 That makes sense.
0:47:52 Oh, good. Well, that’s a place to transition to paidmediaaffiliates.com.
0:47:54 You got the big payday from selling the site,
0:47:57 and you say, “Hey, the work is not over yet.”
0:48:00 Now you’re helping other people get started and grow with this strategy,
0:48:02 paidmediaaffiliates.com.
0:48:05 What else has got you excited these days, or what’s going on over there?
0:48:09 Basically, as I figure out my next project to work on,
0:48:14 I thought this is actually a really unique time for this skill set,
0:48:18 given what’s going on in the SEO world and how challenging it’s been lately.
0:48:19 And the more I talk to people like me,
0:48:23 both individual site owners or just affiliates in general,
0:48:25 at every level, both people are just starting,
0:48:27 as well as people who have been in the game for decades.
0:48:28 You and I were talking about this,
0:48:33 how SEO is just a challenging time for people trying to build SEO traffic at the moment.
0:48:35 This is an interesting category because it works.
0:48:37 It’s just as ever green.
0:48:39 I have lived that experience,
0:48:43 but it seems to be like very few people are thinking about arbitraging paid media
0:48:46 and figuring out how to diversify their business with this channel.
0:48:52 Yeah, it just would be interesting to create an online course around it
0:48:57 and help other people potentially see the light on other avenues
0:48:59 to take their business that are maybe a little bit less obvious
0:49:03 than grow your newsletter or build a social following.
0:49:05 So that was the impetus there.
0:49:07 The course is launching soon.
0:49:09 It’s on paidmediaffiliates.com.
0:49:12 And if you’re interested in learning more about this,
0:49:16 even just chatting to me about if this could work for your niche,
0:49:18 feel free to sign up there and we’ll be in touch.
0:49:19 Very good.
0:49:22 We’ll link that up, paidmediaaffiliates.com.
0:49:23 You can check Alex out over there.
0:49:26 Well, let’s wrap this thing up with your number one tip
0:49:29 for side hustle nation 2024 edition.
0:49:31 De-risk as much as possible.
0:49:34 So whether you have something that’s working well,
0:49:36 don’t think that that will work well forever.
0:49:38 And whether you’re thinking about starting something from scratch,
0:49:43 I think just think about how do I de-risk that first step as much as possible.
0:49:46 So my tips for getting brand partners on board
0:49:49 before you spend your first dollar,
0:49:51 getting them to even maybe fund the spend.
0:49:55 It’s sort of a specific piece of advice.
0:49:58 But the general piece of advice is de-risk
0:50:01 and think about how to kind of stack the deck in your favor
0:50:03 before you spend a lot of time or money.
0:50:07 It’s so true and it’s kind of one of the common threads of the show.
0:50:10 Keep your risks low, keep your goals high and get after it.
0:50:14 2019 tip we had was be extremely persistent,
0:50:16 something I think that has obviously paid off.
0:50:19 And then we had a little, where are they now episode in 2020?
0:50:22 We talked about figuring out the first model
0:50:24 and then the challenge becomes thinking outside the box,
0:50:28 which I think is a great illustration of what we’ve been talking about today.
0:50:29 Hey, we found something that worked.
0:50:31 We found content that converted.
0:50:33 How do we get more eyeballs to it,
0:50:36 even if we have to pay for those and do that in a de-risked way?
0:50:39 So again, appreciate you joining me.
0:50:40 Some of the notes that I wrote down,
0:50:41 some of the soundbites that I wrote down,
0:50:43 don’t be a flamingo standing on one leg.
0:50:44 It’s fragile, right?
0:50:46 You don’t want to get blown over by the wind.
0:50:49 See if you can diversify your business that way.
0:50:51 And we talked about in the wake of Google updates,
0:50:55 you’re building a larger brand and maybe that’s through social media.
0:50:56 Maybe that’s through an email list.
0:50:57 Maybe that’s through video.
0:51:00 Maybe it’s through paid traffic in this case.
0:51:02 I like the call to copy what’s working.
0:51:04 Look, if there are big publishers in your space,
0:51:07 if they are small publishers in your space who are spending money on ads,
0:51:09 if they’ve been doing it for any length of time,
0:51:11 they’re probably not losing money, right?
0:51:12 So copy what’s working.
0:51:13 You can do that on Google.
0:51:14 You can do that on Facebook.
0:51:15 What does their landing page look like?
0:51:17 What does their ad copy look like?
0:51:19 Copy what’s working in a lot of cases.
0:51:21 You probably don’t have to reinvent the wheel.
0:51:22 And then take away number three.
0:51:25 A lot of it depends on finding the right partners
0:51:27 where the math is going to work out from an affiliate standpoint
0:51:30 where they’re investing in growth.
0:51:32 Maybe they have raised some money
0:51:34 and they’re spending money to acquire customers.
0:51:37 Like, hey, how can you get some of that flowing to you
0:51:40 to help them achieve their goals through social whitelisting,
0:51:43 through having them front load the experiment?
0:51:45 Maybe even it’s just paying you extra affiliate commission.
0:51:47 Hey, if I can drive more volume, would you increase my rates?
0:51:50 Lots of different levers you might be able to pull
0:51:51 on finding the right partners there.
0:51:54 But this is Alex’s third appearance on the show.
0:51:56 If you want to get more of the backstory,
0:51:59 I encourage you to check out the previous two episodes.
0:52:02 His co-founder, Healy, was on those as well.
0:52:08 Those are episodes 367 and 410 in your podcast feed.
0:52:10 367 and 410.
0:52:11 Go find those.
0:52:12 Give them a listen.
0:52:15 If you’re new to the show or if you’ve been listening
0:52:16 for a long time, don’t matter.
0:52:19 You can go build yourself a personalized playlist
0:52:22 of the most relevant episodes for you.
0:52:24 All you got to do is go to hustle.show,
0:52:26 answer a few short multiple choice questions,
0:52:29 and the little quiz is going to spit out this cool curated
0:52:33 playlist recommendation based on the answers that you gave.
0:52:35 Again, hustle.show for that.
0:52:38 Big thanks to Alex for sharing his insight once again.
0:52:41 Thanks to our sponsors for helping make this content free
0:52:41 for everyone.
0:52:44 You can hit up sidehustlenation.com/deals
0:52:47 for all the latest offers from our sponsors in one place.
0:52:50 And thanks for supporting the advertisers that support the show.
0:52:51 It really does make a difference.
0:52:53 That is it for me.
0:52:55 Thank you so much for tuning in.
0:52:56 If you’re finding value in the show,
0:52:58 the greatest compliment is to share it with a friend.
0:53:00 So fire off that text message.
0:53:03 Hey, I think you got to check this out until next time.
0:53:04 Let’s go out there and make something happen.
0:53:08 And I’ll catch you in the next edition of the side hustle show.
0:53:08 Hustle on.
0:53:13 As a side hustle show listener, I know you’re driven.
0:53:15 Otherwise, you wouldn’t be here.
0:53:18 But I also know you can end up hustling and driving yourself
0:53:21 into exhaustion, overwhelm, and even burnout
0:53:24 if you don’t stay anchored to why you’re doing it.
0:53:26 That’s why I want to recommend another podcast
0:53:29 that will massively support your side hustle.
0:53:32 It’s called What Drives You with host Kevin Miller.
0:53:33 Kevin’s a former pro athlete.
0:53:37 He’s a lifelong entrepreneur who started 19 different businesses.
0:53:41 He’s a father of nine kids, an author, and a mountain adventurer as well.
0:53:44 He knows both the glory and the dark side of drive.
0:53:47 And has devoted his life to helping people who want to drive
0:53:51 further, faster, but also enjoy the ride every single day.
0:53:53 He brings on today’s most influential people
0:53:56 in personal and business development to see what drives them
0:54:00 and get their guidance on the key ingredients that power our own drive.
0:54:02 If you want to fully harness your drive
0:54:04 and find peace and fulfillment in the process,
0:54:07 go find What Drives You with Kevin Miller,
0:54:09 wherever you listen to podcasts.

0:00:06 We’re talking lifestyle creep, the role of luck, inadvertently breaking a bunch of links.
0:00:10 And why does it seem like every podcast guest is selling an online course?
0:00:11 What’s up?
0:00:12 What’s up?
0:00:13 Nick Loper here.
0:00:14 Welcome to The Side Hustle Show.
0:00:16 Light on the theory, heavy on the tactics.
0:00:18 It’s the business podcast you can actually apply.
0:00:23 And today we’re diving into the listener mailbag for a little Q&A session.
0:00:25 First question that came through, I love this one.
0:00:27 Why are so many guests selling an online course?
0:00:28 That was a listener question.
0:00:29 I got recently.
0:00:30 I thought it was a good one.
0:00:31 It shows you’re paying attention.
0:00:34 First of all, there is some truth to that perception.
0:00:38 I looked at the last two years, the last 100 Side Hustle Show episodes.
0:00:45 In between 20 and 30% of them featured a guest that had a course or a product directly related
0:00:46 to what we were talking about.
0:00:47 So why does that happen?
0:00:49 There’s a few reasons.
0:00:55 First, it’s kind of been the unwritten rule of media for decades, whether it’s TV, talk
0:00:56 shows, radio, and now podcasts.
0:00:58 Look, you help me with content.
0:01:02 My audience is going to find helpful or entertaining, and I give you a platform to drive exposure
0:01:03 for your thing.
0:01:07 It could be the new season of your show, your book, your podcast, your upcoming movie, your
0:01:12 service offering, or what’s common in the entrepreneurial world, especially the entrepreneurial
0:01:14 podcast world, your online course.
0:01:18 Now, another thing to consider is it’s hard to expect somebody to give up an hour of their
0:01:23 time for that interview, especially if they’re busy entrepreneurs, and especially like in
0:01:28 the case of the Side Hustle Show, if the expectation is going to be, you’re going to be sharing
0:01:32 behind-the-scenes stuff about how your business works to potentially create more competition
0:01:37 for yourself if there’s nothing in it for that guest, just like you don’t usually see
0:01:41 your favorite celebrity making the rounds, doing interviews, unless they’ve got something
0:01:42 to promote.
0:01:43 The podcast world operates similarly.
0:01:50 Now, I don’t know if other broadcast media is the same way, like our guests paying to
0:01:56 be on Jimmy Fallon, but some podcasts actually charge guests a multi-thousand dollar appearance
0:02:01 fee for the exposure they’re going to get as a result of being a guest on that show.
0:02:04 To be clear, I’ve never charged guests to be on the Side Hustle Show.
0:02:09 I can only imagine how difficult that would be to not turn every single episode into a
0:02:12 thinly veiled infomercial if that were the case.
0:02:13 I love it.
0:02:16 I love it when I get a guest who is purely excited to share their story.
0:02:19 When there’s no call to action, they just want to give back.
0:02:21 They want to motivate and inspire others.
0:02:26 For the Side Hustle Show specifically, I’m in the fortunate enough position that that
0:02:29 actually happens a decent percentage of the time.
0:02:31 Listeners reach out, “Hey, I listened to this episode.
0:02:32 I took action.
0:02:36 I’d love to share my story,” but when that does, a funny thing happens.
0:02:41 I get listeners messaging me, “Hey, loved your episode with so-and-so.
0:02:42 What’s the best way to get in touch with them?”
0:02:47 I’m thinking about starting the business that they talked about just out of a few questions.
0:02:52 It happens often enough that have ad guests reach back out after a few months and say,
0:02:55 “Hey, I’m thinking about creating an online course because I had so many people looking
0:02:58 for you or even paid consulting on their topic.”
0:03:02 An online course could be a great way to leverage their expertise.
0:03:03 Here’s the thing.
0:03:08 It’s my job as the podcast host to make the content compelling and helpful even if you
0:03:13 don’t want to buy the book, even if you don’t want to see the movie or enroll in the course.
0:03:17 After this model, we all get free content paid for by advertisers.
0:03:20 I try to make sure my guests have a great experience.
0:03:27 Sure, I am happy when they see positive results, of course, but my primary responsibility is
0:03:28 to you.
0:03:29 That’s the most important thing.
0:03:33 My primary responsibility is to the audience because if I’m not serving you, if I’m not
0:03:38 making your life better in some way, it doesn’t take long before I don’t have an audience
0:03:39 anymore.
0:03:43 In any case, I thought that was a great observation, a thoughtful question about why so many guests
0:03:47 seem to have an online course, and hopefully this sheds a little bit more light on why
0:03:49 that is.
0:03:54 If you have a guest in mind with nothing to sell but a great story, send them my way.
0:03:58 Question two is, “I want to sell my Urban Gardening blog.
0:04:02 Do you have any tips for being proactive in finding a buyer besides putting it up for
0:04:04 sale on Flipa?”
0:04:06 This was a question from the Facebook group.
0:04:10 I think that’s awesome that you have set your business up for an exit, and yes, Flipa and
0:04:14 other marketplaces are definitely a viable option.
0:04:19 We’re not seeing multiples as high as we did a few years ago with content sites selling
0:04:24 for 35 to 45 times monthly earnings in some cases, but it can still be a great payday.
0:04:31 My first thought here is to look for other gardening or home-related publishers that
0:04:37 might see your site as a strategic acquisition, either to keep as a standalone brand or under
0:04:43 an online media umbrella, or to fold into their larger content site.
0:04:48 I swear I saw an example of this where somebody was buying up competitors, but keeping them
0:04:52 operating separately, and they ended up in a unique position where they owned half of
0:04:56 the first page of Google listings for a bunch of different keywords, didn’t matter what
0:04:59 you clicked on, there was one parent company behind half of those listings.
0:05:04 The reason I would look for that kind of strategic buyer is probably going to get a better price
0:05:10 from somebody who knows the space, they’ve got maybe a future vision of your site as
0:05:12 a piece of that broader business.
0:05:16 That’s probably where I would look first and do a little proactive outreach there.
0:05:20 Question three is, let’s talk lifestyle creep.
0:05:22 As your income grows, how much do you allow?
0:05:26 This one came from the ChooseFI Facebook group.
0:05:28 Lifestyle creep is a quick definition.
0:05:33 If you’re not familiar with that term, it’s the tendency for your expenses to creep up
0:05:37 as your income grows, and I think that’s fine.
0:05:41 Provided you’re spending on things that improve your quality of life, you work hard for that,
0:05:42 so enjoy it, right?
0:05:47 But it’s also important to do that with a full understanding of both the costs, the
0:05:50 near term costs, and the opportunity costs.
0:05:54 Your savings rate, your personal profitability as a household, how much is left over after
0:05:59 all your expenses, that’s the single biggest lever that you have on your path to financial
0:06:00 independence.
0:06:04 If you make a lot and spend very little, it doesn’t take long before your assets can
0:06:09 cover your lifestyle, on paper at least, and you can find all sorts of calculators online
0:06:14 to show you that every $100 you save today is really worth $400 in 30 years or something,
0:06:18 but you have to couple with that with, I could get hit by a bus tomorrow.
0:06:19 Life’s short.
0:06:24 You got to find a way to enjoy the present, to enjoy the journey while not screwing your
0:06:29 future self, but the idea that you’re going to live super frugally for 15 to 20 years to
0:06:34 achieve fire, financial independence, retire early, and then all of a sudden turn on that
0:06:36 spending habit, that’s not realistic.
0:06:38 Frugal habits die hard.
0:06:43 It’s something that Bert and I have experienced firsthand where we’ll be stressing, stressing
0:06:48 is probably a strong word, but contemplating, should we buy this thing that the kids need?
0:06:51 Maybe it’s the next size up for a pair of shoes or something because it’s on sale and
0:06:53 the sale ends tonight.
0:06:57 But if we buy them not on sale, it’s only an extra 20 bucks.
0:07:01 In the nature of retail, there’s probably another sale coming down the road in a few
0:07:03 months when he might actually need them.
0:07:08 Our fixed expenses, thinking about the lifestyle creep thing, our fixed expenses probably maxed
0:07:10 out when we had both boys in preschool four days a week.
0:07:16 I don’t remember the exact number, but I’m sure it was over $3,000 a month.
0:07:21 And now that they’re both in school, to have that coming back to the bottom line, it’s
0:07:24 a lot easier to justify some conscious lifestyle creep.
0:07:28 There’s three grand that we were previously spending that were not anymore.
0:07:31 Could we spend one of it to make life better in some way?
0:07:32 Could we spend two of it?
0:07:34 It’s like you weren’t missing it when it wasn’t there.
0:07:39 In our case, that’s been things like paying for the more convenient airport parking.
0:07:41 It’s been making some home improvements.
0:07:45 It’s going to the workout classes we like, even though it’s more than working out at
0:07:46 home.
0:07:50 It’s hitting the easy button on occasion with takeout and meal delivery, where we’ve
0:07:58 been hesitant when it comes to lifestyle creep is committing to long-term increased expenses.
0:08:02 Like you would if you bought a bigger house, along with that comes the bigger mortgage,
0:08:07 the higher property taxes, the higher utilities, or really any recurring service.
0:08:10 You got to be sure it’s really worth it.
0:08:14 And to be fair, a lot of these are fairly low risk, pretty easily reversible.
0:08:19 The bigger challenge is dealing with the mental fallout of the lifestyle slipping, the opposite
0:08:21 of lifestyle creep.
0:08:25 If you find yourself needing to cut back on spending because your income suddenly decreases
0:08:31 and that means giving up on luxuries you’ve grown accustomed to, it feels like a big loss.
0:08:35 Even if the trimmed back version is still a perfectly healthy lifestyle, that’s where
0:08:38 the hedonic adaptation comes into play here.
0:08:41 It’s pretty easy to get used to a certain level of convenience and comfort and hard to
0:08:45 go back to a place where that’s no longer feasible.
0:08:48 Even if it’s still better off than people were 50 years ago, 100 years ago, we could
0:08:53 talk about this stuff for hours and which specific lifestyle upgrades are worth it.
0:08:55 But that’s how we tend to think about it.
0:08:59 Spending definitely became easier as our income increased and it’s become easier when certain
0:09:04 big ticket expenses like childcare went away and it became easier after hitting financial
0:09:09 independence number we were comfortable with or at least a cost-fi number we were comfortable
0:09:10 with.
0:09:13 But take a look at your income and expenses and if you have a big gap to play with and
0:09:18 you’re happy with where you’re at work wise, absolutely enjoy the fruits of your labor,
0:09:20 let that lifestyle creep a little bit.
0:09:25 I’ve got more Q&A coming up right after this.
0:09:28 That’s the sound of another sale on your online Shopify store.
0:09:32 But did you know Shopify powers in-person selling too?
0:09:33 It’s true.
0:09:40 Shopify is the sound of selling everywhere, online, in-store, on social media, and beyond.
0:09:42 Shopify POS is your command center for your retail store.
0:09:47 That means you can accept payments, manage inventory, and track every sale across your
0:09:48 business in one place.
0:09:52 With Shopify, you get a powerhouse selling partner that helps you drive store traffic
0:09:57 with plug-and-play tools built for marketing campaigns from TikTok to Instagram and beyond.
0:10:02 You can take payments by smartphone, transform your tablet into a point-of-sale system, or
0:10:06 use Shopify’s POS Go mobile device for a battle-tested solution.
0:10:11 Plus, Shopify’s award-winning help is there to support your success every step of the
0:10:12 way.
0:10:14 You can also get a retail right with Shopify.
0:10:20 Go ahead, sign up for a $1 per month trial period at Shopify.com/SideHussell.
0:10:21 That’s all lowercase.
0:10:31 Go to Shopify.com/SideHussell to take your retail business to the next level today — Shopify.com/SideHussell.
0:10:35 As business owners, we understand that good design and product packaging can be key to
0:10:36 growing your business.
0:10:40 And if your sales are lagging, a rebrand might be part of the solution.
0:10:44 Still, it can be really challenging to figure out how to even start the process.
0:10:48 If you’re asking yourself, “Ah, is a rebrand really worth the effort and the cost,” you’re
0:10:54 going to want to check out a recent episode of a great podcast called “This Is Small Business”
0:10:58 with Andrea Marquez that walks you through the process of figuring this out.
0:11:02 The episode is called “How Good Design Can Help Increase Sales,” where I learned that
0:11:05 design is so much more than just aesthetics.
0:11:10 It impacts user experience, it impacts brand perception, and ultimately, it impacts business
0:11:11 growth.
0:11:15 “This Is Small Business” is full of practical insights that you can apply to your business
0:11:16 right now.
0:11:20 And it answers so many of the kinds of questions that all entrepreneurs have, like how to build
0:11:25 your marketing strategy, how to use email lists to increase revenue, and tips to accelerate
0:11:28 small business growth, along with tons more.
0:11:33 So follow “This Is Small Business,” an original podcast from Amazon, wherever you listen.
0:11:37 Question four is, “I noticed your email links are all broken.
0:11:38 What’s going on?
0:11:39 What happened?”
0:11:44 Well, what happened was, in March, we switched from Active Campaign to ConvertKit, and one
0:11:49 of the unintended consequences of that move was all the Active Campaign links died, seven
0:11:51 years of them.
0:11:54 Not a great user experience for people who kept those emails in their inbox to refer
0:11:57 back to, but that’s what happened.
0:11:58 Sorry about that.
0:11:59 And why the move?
0:12:00 Why the change?
0:12:02 A few reasons for that.
0:12:05 I mean, first of all, Active Campaign, great tool, super powerful.
0:12:11 I was attracted to ConvertKit by their investments and their commitment to the broader creator
0:12:12 economy.
0:12:18 They’ve added a ton of cool features, including subscriber referral programs, their sponsor
0:12:22 network, their creator network, which truthfully haven’t fully explored yet, but unlike in
0:12:24 the platform so far, it’s funny.
0:12:30 The interface and design is miles ahead of where Active Campaign is, and there are some
0:12:34 really thoughtful features, but there’s other stuff where it’s like, “Dude, I kind of liked
0:12:35 it better the old way.
0:12:37 I liked it better the Active Campaign way.”
0:12:43 My frustration with Active Campaign was my inability to reach anyone when I had questions
0:12:46 about my account and specifically about a big price increase.
0:12:52 I’m of the thinking that, look, everything is negotiable, and that was my intent.
0:12:55 I would have liked to have thought of myself as a fairly valuable long-term customer.
0:13:00 I’ve been with them since 2017, had over 100,000 subscribers, and to be fair, not knowing
0:13:06 a ton about the inner workings of running an email delivery business, but I had to imagine
0:13:10 they had some margin to play with price-wise to get me to stick around, but it was a big
0:13:11 challenge.
0:13:15 I was not impressed with that customer support or sales support.
0:13:19 They ended up stripping away some features from my account without even telling me.
0:13:24 I think they were banking on the switching costs, being too high, being too big of a
0:13:30 pain to actually do it and unravel the last seven years of opt-in forms and integrations
0:13:32 all across the internet, and it was a big pain.
0:13:36 It was a big project, which, to their credit, ConvertKit said, “Hey, we’ll handle it.
0:13:37 We want your business.
0:13:42 We’ll do the migration,” and they did, but overall, ConvertKit, I think, better feature-set,
0:13:46 a company that’s more in line with SideHustle Nation and the Creator Economy at a similar
0:13:47 price point.
0:13:50 It just happened that all the old email links broken.
0:13:54 All the new ones are working, all the ConvertKit ones are working, so for March forward, should
0:13:58 be just fine, but any emails before that probably have broken links in them.
0:14:02 If you find those, if you come across those and can’t find those resources through Google
0:14:05 or something else, let me know, and I’ll see if I can dig those up for you.
0:14:10 Question five is how much of success is attributed to luck?
0:14:16 Now, 15, 20 years ago, I would have wanted to dismiss luck almost entirely.
0:14:17 Go make your own luck.
0:14:18 The harder I work, the luckier I get, right?
0:14:25 Am I thinking on it has evolved a bit, hard work, being proactive, seizing an opportunity,
0:14:28 obviously, still super important.
0:14:33 But there definitely is an element of right place, right time, an element of luck in almost
0:14:34 everything that we do.
0:14:38 For example, I think it’s a lot harder to get attention for a new podcast today than
0:14:40 it was in 2013.
0:14:45 Do be sure, still fell crowded then, but nowhere near the level of quality and quantity of
0:14:47 competition that’s out there today.
0:14:52 Another example, my original SideHustle, the price comparison site for shoes, it started
0:14:59 out during a time when a relative beginner could still go out and buy profitable text
0:15:00 link ads from Google.
0:15:04 Sure, I put in the work, but that was lucky timing.
0:15:09 I never would have started that business had it not been for an internship with an online
0:15:14 shoe store during college, that I might never have even found out about that internship had
0:15:20 it not been for my roommate pointing out their little classified ad in our school newspaper.
0:15:21 That was lucky, right?
0:15:26 It was one of these seemingly insignificant at the time moments that turned out to be
0:15:29 a major turning point for the next 20 years.
0:15:32 It’s a weird fork in the road scenario to play out.
0:15:36 How different might life look if he didn’t share that with me?
0:15:38 But how can you increase your luck?
0:15:39 How can you improve your odds?
0:15:43 A friend of mine recently shared this article that has an answer to that.
0:15:48 It was called How to Increase Your Luck Surface Area written by Jason Roberts.
0:15:53 He writes, quote, “The amount of serendipity that will occur in your life, your luck surface
0:15:58 area, is directly proportional to the degree to which you do something you’re passionate
0:16:04 about combined with the total number of people to whom this is effectively communicated.”
0:16:09 It’s a simple concept, but an extremely powerful one because it implies that you can directly
0:16:12 control the amount of luck you receive.
0:16:16 In other words, you make your own luck, end quote.
0:16:17 So those are the two ingredients.
0:16:20 You work, you care about, share with others.
0:16:25 Creation plus marketing, product plus sales, increase your luck surface area.
0:16:26 I thought that was pretty cool.
0:16:31 Question six is how much do you need to earn on an annual basis for your side hustle to
0:16:32 be worth it?
0:16:37 Now, obviously, this is going to be extremely subjective based on your goals, your financial
0:16:41 situation, and how much time you’re investing into your side hustle.
0:16:45 On the one end of the spectrum, we can probably all agree if you’re hustling an extra 20 hours
0:16:49 a week and don’t have any income to show for it, not worth it, right?
0:16:53 Maybe the exception there is a startup phase of a business where you’re laying the foundation,
0:16:57 you’re building an audience, you’re building a product, and you expect to see revenue soon.
0:17:00 If you’re just spinning your wheels, clearly not worth it.
0:17:03 But how much do you have to make for it to be worth it?
0:17:08 My suggestion is to find a dollar amount that’s meaningful to you in some way.
0:17:09 It could be $100 a year.
0:17:10 It doesn’t matter.
0:17:14 And one way to do that is to find an expense that you want to erase.
0:17:19 I call this the side hustle snowball, how it works as you itemize out your monthly expenses
0:17:25 from smallest to largest, from your cell phone bill or life insurance or Netflix account or
0:17:30 gym membership all the way up to your car payment, your childcare, your rent, your mortgage.
0:17:34 And then I look for ways to erase those expenses with extra income.
0:17:36 How can I make my Netflix free?
0:17:38 Well, maybe I could sell something on eBay.
0:17:40 How can I cover my cell phone bill?
0:17:43 Well, maybe I could do a focus group or answer some surveys.
0:17:45 How can I cover my car payment?
0:17:47 Maybe I could start freelancing.
0:17:52 What this allows you to do is celebrate some smaller side hustle wins along the way, even
0:17:56 if it’s not replacing your day job income, even though you’re not going to retire early
0:17:57 from it.
0:18:01 It was still worth it, both from a financial standpoint, but hopefully also from a skills
0:18:05 learned or connections made standpoint.
0:18:08 Question seven is what kind of things can I rent out for a profit?
0:18:12 I heard about people doing inflatables and bounce houses, but I don’t think I could set
0:18:13 those up.
0:18:16 Well, I like rental businesses, you know, an opportunity to get paid over and over again
0:18:19 from an asset you buy once.
0:18:20 Inflatables are definitely one option.
0:18:24 If you’re not comfortable setting them up yourself, maybe you could hire a helper, but
0:18:28 some of the other rental businesses we’ve talked about, I’ll link up the episode numbers
0:18:31 and the resources for these in the show notes.
0:18:35 Other rental businesses we’ve talked about include portable hot tubs, photo booths for
0:18:38 brand activations and weddings and company parties.
0:18:41 We did mobility scooters somewhat recently.
0:18:46 We had a story about champagne walls at weddings, kind of this wooden nicely designed thing.
0:18:50 People can grab champagne off of little pegs, lots of different ideas.
0:18:54 Like down by our lake, there’s a company that from the outside looking in appears to be
0:18:59 doing a booming business renting out kayaks and paddleboards in the summer.
0:19:05 I think the key is finding those one-off items and tapping into some existing demand either
0:19:10 through an existing marketplace, through your own marketing efforts, through social media,
0:19:14 through SEO, or just by getting in front of people at the place where they’re looking
0:19:18 for that activity, like in the example of the kayaks.
0:19:19 Question eight was this.
0:19:20 I have a video camera.
0:19:21 Here’s another rental idea.
0:19:24 I’ve got a video camera I’m not using and was thinking of renting it out, but how do
0:19:25 I make sure I get it back?
0:19:28 My goal is to make $500 to $1,000 a month.
0:19:30 Do you think that’s doable?
0:19:35 If you’re renting it directly, person to person, you don’t want to have all of the contracts
0:19:39 and insurance and security deposits to make sure that you do get it back and you get it
0:19:45 back in the condition that you expect, but what’s probably easier and a potentially faster
0:19:49 way to connect with customers would be to use the buy buttons strategy of going where
0:19:51 the cash is already flowing.
0:19:54 If I want to rent out a video camera, where would I go?
0:19:58 What are the video rental marketplaces or camera gear marketplaces?
0:20:03 ShareGrid was one that I came across and in that example, they’re going to handle all
0:20:04 that back-end paperwork.
0:20:06 They’re going to verify insurance for your renters.
0:20:11 As far as the $500 to $1,000 a month goal, it seems feasible based on the rates that
0:20:17 I see on the site from $35 to $100 plus per day, depending on the type of equipment that
0:20:20 you have, but there’s really only one way to find out.
0:20:21 You got to test this stuff out.
0:20:23 You got to find out for yourself.
0:20:24 Maybe it works.
0:20:26 Maybe it doesn’t, but at least you’ll be doing something.
0:20:30 You’ll be increasing your luck surface area and maybe opening the doors to other opportunities
0:20:32 at the same time.
0:20:36 Number nine is I’m currently working on an AI-inspired Instagram page that just passed
0:20:38 1,900 followers.
0:20:40 I’d love to monetize it, but I’m not sure how.
0:20:45 Any advice on how to take an Instagram page from just artwork and followers to making
0:20:47 some side hustle money?
0:20:50 The way I see this one, I see a few different paths that this could go.
0:20:54 First off, you could provide a service and maybe not to your followers, but just a broader
0:20:55 service.
0:21:00 You could make AI images for other Instagram accounts, for other brands, for other creators,
0:21:05 who don’t want to do this themselves, don’t know how to do this themselves.
0:21:06 You’re a pro.
0:21:07 You can go do that for them.
0:21:10 The second way would be brand deals and sponsored content.
0:21:12 How do influencers make money?
0:21:14 That’s one way that a lot of them do.
0:21:19 I think the following would have to grow significantly before that’s really viable.
0:21:22 If you’re at 1,900, you’d want to see it at 1,900, 1,000.
0:21:29 Every time you can level up, your clout improves in terms of what you can charge and what brands
0:21:30 you can get.
0:21:36 The third would be to create an audience-facing product, like maybe in this case, an AI-generated
0:21:37 coloring book or something like that.
0:21:42 It could be print on demand through Amazon, whatever, but an audience-facing product in
0:21:43 that same niche.
0:21:49 Fourth would be you could create a course on how to generate AI images if that’s something
0:21:50 that your audience is interested in.
0:21:54 I guess you could do a quick poll and say, “Hey, is this something that you would like?”
0:21:59 Or you could even do a pre-sale, “Hey, if I get 20 customers, I’ll build this.”
0:22:01 Refund people’s money if they don’t want it.
0:22:03 And then lastly would be affiliate promos.
0:22:08 I don’t know if mid-journey or any of these other AI art tools, if they have an affiliate
0:22:12 program or referral program, but that would be another way to go if your followers want
0:22:17 to learn how to create this stuff themselves, “Hey, you’re going to want to start with
0:22:21 a free trial of this thing, and maybe that converts into a paid thing, and maybe that
0:22:24 converts into an affiliate commission for you down the road.”
0:22:26 But you’re increasing your luck surface area.
0:22:28 You’re doing something that you care about.
0:22:30 You’re telling people about it through this account.
0:22:34 And so I think positive things can come from that.
0:22:35 Question 10.
0:22:36 This is our final question for this episode.
0:22:41 It says, “I’m starting a new website, but I’m not sure what to put on my about page,
0:22:44 especially since it’s going to be my first entry.”
0:22:49 And the good news here is that your about page doesn’t require any additional posts
0:22:50 on the site.
0:22:52 It can be all about you and your target readers.
0:22:56 It’s a good place to share your excitement and hopefully your credentials to talk about
0:23:00 your topic and what readers can expect to find on your site.
0:23:04 For example, I use the Side Hustle Nation About page to share a little about me, a little
0:23:12 bit about my background, but really to also try and describe and connect with that ideal
0:23:17 Side Hustle Nation reader and how I can help them achieve what they want.
0:23:20 It’s not people are tuned into the “What’s in it for me?” type of thing.
0:23:24 And of course, I want to invite them to dive deeper into the content, join the email list.
0:23:29 The about page says, “My entrepreneurial journey began at an early age, selling candy to my
0:23:33 fellow Boy Scouts at summer camp and eventually painting houses in college.
0:23:35 After graduation, I did what you’re supposed to do.
0:23:40 I got a full-time job for a giant corporation, but I built my business nights and weekends.
0:23:41 You can do it too.
0:23:43 Look, everybody’s got their own reasons to Side Hustle.
0:23:44 Maybe you want to make extra money.
0:23:46 Maybe you want to pay off debt.
0:23:47 Maybe you want to learn new skills.
0:23:49 Maybe you want to use your free time more productively.
0:23:51 Maybe you want to escape the rat race.
0:23:54 Whatever your reason, I’m here to help.”
0:23:59 The about page also includes a list of 25 random facts about me along with some pet peeves,
0:24:04 which are really designed to just personalize the words on the screen.
0:24:11 Like yes, there’s a real human here who has been studying this whole make extra money
0:24:14 thing for a long time and would like to help you make some for yourself.
0:24:19 And the other important thing with your about page or really with any website content, it’s
0:24:20 not set in stone.
0:24:25 You can always go back and update it later as the business evolves.
0:24:26 That is it for me.
0:24:27 Thank you so much for tuning in.
0:24:31 Until next time, let’s go out there and make something happen, and I’ll catch you in the
0:24:33 next edition of the Side Hustle Show.
0:24:35 Hustle on.
0:24:39 As a Side Hustle Show listener, I know you’re driven, otherwise you wouldn’t be here.
0:24:44 But I also know you can end up hustling and driving yourself into exhaustion, overwhelm,
0:24:49 and even burnout if you don’t stay anchored to why you’re doing it.
0:24:53 That’s why I want to recommend another podcast that will massively support your Side Hustle.
0:24:56 It’s called What Drives You with host Kevin Miller.
0:24:58 Kevin’s a former pro athlete.
0:25:02 He’s a lifelong entrepreneur who started 19 different businesses.
0:25:06 He’s a father of nine kids, an author and a mountain adventurer as well.
0:25:10 He knows both the glory and the dark side of drive and has devoted his life to helping
0:25:16 people who want to drive further, faster, but also enjoy the ride every single day.
0:25:20 He brings on today’s most influential people in personal and business development to see
0:25:24 what drives them and get their guidance on the key ingredients that power our own drive.
0:25:29 If you want to fully harness your drive and find peace and fulfillment in the process,
0:25:33 go find What Drives You with Kevin Miller, wherever you listen to podcasts.

0:00:03 – 200 grand a year from a local email newsletter.
0:00:05 What’s up, what’s up, Nick Loper here.
0:00:07 Welcome to the “The Side Hustle Show,”
0:00:09 part of the entrepreneur podcast network.
0:00:12 It’s the business podcast you can actually apply.
0:00:15 Lots to love about starting a newsletter business.
0:00:17 Low overhead, scalable, sellable,
0:00:19 like “The Hustle Morning Brew,”
0:00:21 both selling for eight-figure exits.
0:00:22 Now, today’s guest has a unique take
0:00:24 on the newsletter business,
0:00:27 focusing on his hometown, Annapolis, Maryland,
0:00:30 becoming a pillar of the community along the way,
0:00:32 and making great money at the same time.
0:00:36 From nappetownscoop.com, Ryan Stedin.
0:00:37 Welcome to “The Side Hustle Show.”
0:00:40 – Thanks, Nick, that was a fantastic intro.
0:00:42 Definitely make me sound more impressive than I am.
0:00:44 – A gift people pumped up because, stick around,
0:00:46 you’re gonna learn how Ryan grew his subscriber base
0:00:49 to roughly half the town’s population, huge,
0:00:51 how he monetizes the business,
0:00:53 and the logistics of putting out
0:00:56 a high-quality newsletter five days a week.
0:00:58 Now, your listener-only bonus for this week
0:01:01 is my big list of 75 newsletter niches
0:01:03 thinking beyond just local newsletter strategy,
0:01:06 but how you can apply some of Ryan’s strategies
0:01:08 to a newsletter side hustle of your own.
0:01:11 You can download that for free at the show notes
0:01:12 for this episode.
0:01:14 The easiest way to get there is just follow the link
0:01:16 in the episode description.
0:01:17 I’ll get you right over there.
0:01:20 Now, Ryan, you had this kind of fun celebrity moment
0:01:22 showing up to a local charity event,
0:01:23 and it starts to hit you
0:01:25 ’cause people keep asking for selfies.
0:01:26 Can you tell me about that?
0:01:30 – Yeah, so it was June, 2021.
0:01:34 I went to a local event run by our Rotoract Club,
0:01:37 which is like the Rotary, but for younger people.
0:01:41 We probably had six or 7,000 Instagram followers
0:01:43 at this point, probably a similar number
0:01:44 of newsletter subscribers.
0:01:48 But for some reason, or somehow I got invited to this thing.
0:01:50 I got there right on time, which I never do.
0:01:53 I’m always late, but I walk in right on time,
0:01:55 and there’s not that many people there.
0:01:58 I don’t recognize anybody except the organizers
0:02:00 of the event, but they’re busy.
0:02:03 And so I walk out into the back deck
0:02:05 of this venue that they have.
0:02:08 As soon as I exit the door, I heard my name,
0:02:09 and I looked to see if I know anybody,
0:02:11 and I don’t recognize anybody on the porch.
0:02:13 There’s only like three people on the porch, but–
0:02:15 – That’s always a great moment when you’re like,
0:02:17 oh shoot, you’re scanning through the mental roll.
0:02:18 How does this person know me?
0:02:22 – Oh no, there wasn’t even any recognition at all.
0:02:24 I looked at him and I was like, it wasn’t,
0:02:25 oh shoot, I can’t remember their name.
0:02:28 It was, how on earth does this person know who I am?
0:02:32 And so then I walk over, ’cause I’m curious,
0:02:35 and they’re like, you’re the Naptown scoop guy.
0:02:37 Can we take a picture with you?
0:02:38 And I was like, what?
0:02:40 This has never happened before.
0:02:42 We’re about a year in at this point.
0:02:46 Started August 2020, this is now June 2021.
0:02:47 So that was as soon as I walked in.
0:02:49 And then that happened like a dozen more times
0:02:52 at that one event over the next two or three hours.
0:02:54 I’ve become friends with a lot of the people who did ask
0:02:57 ’cause they really were the big fans of the thing,
0:02:58 of the newsletter.
0:03:01 But that was an aha moment where I was like, wow,
0:03:04 people know this, they want to know me,
0:03:07 and I also need to go to every single thing like this
0:03:10 that I ever can find because this is great marketing.
0:03:13 Not only do the people that are there know me,
0:03:14 but more people are learning about it,
0:03:17 especially ’cause there’s like this snowball effect
0:03:19 where if somebody walks out and somebody asks
0:03:21 that person for a picture,
0:03:22 everybody’s looking around like, wait,
0:03:23 who is that person?
0:03:24 Should I? – Yeah, totally.
0:03:26 – And so I would notice after going to these events
0:03:28 that our subscriber count would jump a little bit,
0:03:31 but it was pretty funny to see that in the beginning.
0:03:33 – You get recognized out in the wild.
0:03:35 It’s almost like the TV news anchor
0:03:38 for a younger generation, perhaps,
0:03:41 where you start to get some positive notoriety
0:03:43 in the community, like you become a well-known person.
0:03:44 I think that’s kind of a cool,
0:03:47 and maybe if that appeals to you as a listener,
0:03:50 that’s a side benefit of starting this thing.
0:03:52 You really have a pulse to really have,
0:03:55 become a voice in the community.
0:03:56 So nobody else was doing this.
0:04:00 So summer 2020 is when you get the inspiration to start this.
0:04:02 Nobody else was doing it or they weren’t doing it well.
0:04:04 And so you come in, talk to me about the early days,
0:04:08 like how do you get these initial 100,000 subscribers,
0:04:10 102,000, not 100,000 subscribers,
0:04:12 but like the first people to send this to.
0:04:14 – Yeah, not very complicated.
0:04:16 A lot of people, for their first newsletter,
0:04:19 they’ll just send it to their family and friends.
0:04:21 I did not have any family and friends that lived in Annapolis.
0:04:26 I grew up about 45 minutes away from Annapolis.
0:04:28 My uncle had lived there,
0:04:30 and that’s why I knew it and loved it,
0:04:32 but he had since moved away
0:04:35 and only spends a couple of months a year there here now.
0:04:36 So I don’t really have any friends or family
0:04:37 to send this to.
0:04:38 I just was like, I’m gonna try this.
0:04:39 I think it’s a good idea.
0:04:41 So I just started running Facebook ads,
0:04:43 and that’s how I got all the subscribers.
0:04:46 I got 70 subscribers for the first one.
0:04:48 I think we had 150 for the second one,
0:04:50 and I can’t remember how many we had after that
0:04:52 for each individual newsletter,
0:04:55 but I do remember those first two,
0:04:56 and that was really encouraging,
0:04:57 ’cause when you first set the first one,
0:05:00 it was like 80% open rate, super high.
0:05:02 Then the second one was a little bit less,
0:05:04 but doubled in subscriber count,
0:05:07 and so that was just really good early traction,
0:05:09 and that was only once a week that I was sending,
0:05:10 and I think it was every Wednesday,
0:05:12 but I only did that for two weeks on Wednesdays,
0:05:15 and then I realized that if I was ever gonna make
0:05:16 any money on this,
0:05:17 then I would need more advertising
0:05:18 than just one day a week.
0:05:19 That’s kind of what I tell people
0:05:22 about the nature of podcast advertising.
0:05:23 Like it’s pretty tough to build
0:05:25 a full-time income off of it,
0:05:27 ’cause it’s this game of amplitude.
0:05:30 How many people can I reach and frequency?
0:05:31 How often can I reach them?
0:05:34 It’s like, well, if you’re just doing one show a week,
0:05:35 that’s gonna be tough.
0:05:37 You gotta have a really big audience to make that work.
0:05:38 Same thing here.
0:05:41 If it’s gonna be a monetized with ads model,
0:05:42 they gotta send more often.
0:05:44 I get more impressions that way,
0:05:46 but running Facebook ads,
0:05:50 did you have a budget or a cost per subscriber
0:05:52 that you were comfortable with out of the gate?
0:05:53 At that point, absolutely not.
0:05:56 There was never a value of each subscriber
0:05:59 where I knew as long as I get them for this much money,
0:06:01 I can still make profit on them.
0:06:03 I have then figured it out,
0:06:06 and the number ended up being around $7 per subscriber.
0:06:07 I don’t even know what it is now
0:06:09 ’cause we don’t do any Facebook advertising
0:06:11 ’cause we kind of hit critical mass
0:06:13 where they started to get really expensive to get.
0:06:15 But in the beginning,
0:06:17 and this was just kind of picked out of thin air,
0:06:19 I was like, let’s just keep it under $2 a subscriber.
0:06:22 If I can keep it under $2 a subscriber,
0:06:24 I have a couple thousand dollars
0:06:25 that I can invest in this thing.
0:06:28 I’d quit my job and saved a lot of my salary.
0:06:29 I’d only worked for one year
0:06:32 before I ended up doing this out of college.
0:06:35 So I had saved up about $25,000.
0:06:39 I was like, honestly, I’m 20 at that point, 23 years old,
0:06:42 but it quickly became apparent
0:06:44 that it would be not a total failure
0:06:47 and that even if I did spend all the $25,000 on it,
0:06:50 I’d probably be able to make that back with advertising.
0:06:52 And so at a certain point,
0:06:55 I just kind of sent it and spent it all on advertising.
0:06:57 I mean, almost all of it.
0:07:00 – Okay, do you see that as the most viable path
0:07:01 outside of friends and family
0:07:04 trying to acquire subscribers that way?
0:07:05 – Well, viable is different
0:07:07 ’cause it depends on if you could sell advertising.
0:07:08 It’s definitely the easiest and fastest.
0:07:11 And I think it’s what I recommend.
0:07:13 Anybody who wants to start a local newsletter,
0:07:15 but in terms of another way,
0:07:16 you can get a lot of subscribers pretty quickly.
0:07:18 It would be local Facebook groups.
0:07:20 It’s harder ’cause you have to earn the trust of the admins
0:07:22 and then do it in a way that’s not annoying
0:07:25 ’cause the internet hates self-promotion.
0:07:28 And a lot of groups like that have rules against it,
0:07:30 but that’s a really good way to get a lot of subscribers.
0:07:32 I learned that by accident
0:07:34 because somebody posted my newsletter
0:07:37 in one of those groups and we got 625 subscribers
0:07:39 overnight and I was like, what’s that about?
0:07:41 – Yeah, that’s a nice spike.
0:07:42 – I found out where they came from
0:07:43 and I was like, that’s amazing.
0:07:45 That’s how we do more of this.
0:07:47 – Instead of paying two bucks a piece, yeah.
0:07:49 – Yeah, so is it the most viable?
0:07:51 I don’t know, that depends on your ability to sell advertising,
0:07:53 but is it the fastest and easiest and what I recommend?
0:07:54 Yes.
0:07:58 – Okay, and so the $2, that was kind of the target metric,
0:08:00 especially early on, and then the $7–
0:08:01 – Yeah, but I just pulled that out of thin air,
0:08:03 so definitely don’t take the $2 as gospel.
0:08:07 – Sure, and then the $7 was your kind of estimate,
0:08:09 lifetime value, where did that number come from?
0:08:12 – Yeah, that was like a very conservative lifetime value.
0:08:16 That was assuming that they opened half of the emails
0:08:20 and stayed for only one year reading
0:08:22 based on our current advertising rates.
0:08:25 So not all those things turned out to be true.
0:08:27 They stayed for far longer than one year.
0:08:31 The open rate guess did stay about the same.
0:08:33 Be have tells us it’s 63 or 65% now,
0:08:35 but I think that’s a little high
0:08:38 based on some things that I think Apple tracking
0:08:39 that most people probably know about,
0:08:42 or if they don’t, can’t trust open rates as much anymore.
0:08:43 But that was what that was based on.
0:08:46 So the value was actually higher,
0:08:48 but I was pretty conservative in the beginning with it
0:08:51 just ’cause I didn’t have a lot of money to spare.
0:08:53 – And do you remember what the ad looked like
0:08:57 in terms of image, call to action, how was that set up?
0:08:59 – Yeah, so I tried a bunch of different ones.
0:09:01 You mentioned something earlier
0:09:05 about being this voice for the young people.
0:09:07 It’s actually not really the young people
0:09:08 that read this newsletter.
0:09:11 It’s mostly women over the age of 45.
0:09:14 That’s really like our prime target demographic.
0:09:15 They absolutely love it.
0:09:16 And we have young people too,
0:09:18 but I tried a bunch of different ads.
0:09:20 The best performing one is just this
0:09:23 like pretty attractive woman looking down on her phone.
0:09:24 I don’t even think she’s looking at her phone.
0:09:25 And she’s holding her phone
0:09:26 like she would be looking at it,
0:09:30 but then she’s smiling and looking straight away from her.
0:09:34 And then I think we put a little text over that
0:09:37 that just is like an overlay graphic that said,
0:09:39 I always know what’s going on in Annapolis.
0:09:41 And then there were a couple of different pieces of copy
0:09:45 that we put in the actual text of the ad
0:09:47 that you can do on Facebook.
0:09:48 But those changed a lot.
0:09:53 The image did not change once I figured out what worked.
0:09:56 So I spent, I think I spent like 12 to $15,000
0:10:00 of our Facebook ads blasting this picture of this woman out.
0:10:02 And that was the ad that worked.
0:10:04 So I like to think if she ever shows up in Annapolis,
0:10:06 this stock photo model,
0:10:09 she’ll, everybody will like kind of recognize her.
0:10:11 Like they’ll know that they see her there.
0:10:13 But they won’t be able to remember where,
0:10:16 ’cause it was just a random ad like three or five years ago.
0:10:18 But they won’t just like think she’s a stranger.
0:10:20 And I just hope that she visits
0:10:22 and gets like all these like weird side looks.
0:10:24 ‘Cause everybody kind of recognizes her,
0:10:25 but nobody really does.
0:10:26 I would think that was hilarious.
0:10:29 But yeah, that was the best ad we just,
0:10:32 and honestly, that was like one of the first ones I ran.
0:10:34 Kind of found success on it pretty early.
0:10:36 You don’t really need to overcomplicate
0:10:38 the ads to grow a local newsletter.
0:10:39 It’s a free thing.
0:10:42 And basically anybody in your town can read it.
0:10:44 The best thing to do is just figure out
0:10:47 which demographic response to the ads best and cheapest.
0:10:49 And also then turns into readers
0:10:51 and then just hit those people hard.
0:10:53 So eventually we just stopped targeting men,
0:10:55 stopped targeting women under 40.
0:10:58 We always only targeted within 10 miles of Annapolis.
0:11:00 And that’s also why I chose the radius that I chose.
0:11:02 We only cover things within 10 miles of Annapolis.
0:11:04 ‘Cause at the time I haven’t looked in a while,
0:11:06 but I’m pretty sure it’s probably still this way.
0:11:09 That was the smallest radius that you could target
0:11:12 on Facebook without actually putting in specific zip codes.
0:11:15 And I found that when I put in specific zip codes,
0:11:16 it was just more expensive.
0:11:20 I don’t know why, ’cause I was targeting the same people
0:11:23 if I was doing 10 miles versus uploading all the zip codes
0:11:24 in, but yeah, so that’s why I chose 10 miles.
0:11:27 It was the shortest Facebook radius I could pick.
0:11:28 So that’s just what I chose to cover.
0:11:31 – Okay, I love this line of she’s looking at her phone.
0:11:33 I always know what’s going on in Annapolis.
0:11:36 I could see that working across any number
0:11:36 of different towns.
0:11:39 And it’s like, in my case, I always know what’s going on
0:11:43 in Sammamish and rely heavily on just like our local
0:11:46 neighborhood subdivision kind of Facebook group
0:11:48 for just the latest on the rumor mill.
0:11:51 It’s like, okay, we could go a little bit broader
0:11:52 and do something.
0:11:54 I think that’d be fascinating to test out.
0:11:58 So the paid ads, the local Facebook group is very organic.
0:11:59 Sounds like other people were posting it.
0:12:01 Hey, this is a cool resource.
0:12:02 Go sign up over here.
0:12:04 Anything else that was juicing subscribers,
0:12:07 anything to like incentivize, share it with a friend,
0:12:10 send it to 10 people and get a t-shirt like not a spark.
0:12:12 Is it spark loop or what’s the built in
0:12:14 like referral system type of thing?
0:12:18 – In the beginning, I got a viral loops.
0:12:19 – That’s the one.
0:12:22 – At Sumo lifetime subscription deal.
0:12:26 I think I paid 300 bucks once.
0:12:29 And as long as I never had more than 20 or 25,000 people
0:12:33 on my list, I could use viral loops for free then forever.
0:12:36 That was before any of the newsletter platforms
0:12:39 had the referral program stuff built in.
0:12:41 Now, the only two that I would recommend using,
0:12:43 which would be Be Hive or ConvertKit,
0:12:45 they both have one built in.
0:12:48 So it’s not as big of a deal, but at the time,
0:12:49 it was kind of hard for me to do it
0:12:54 ’cause it required viral loops and Zapier into MailChimp
0:12:57 and it was a little bit expensive.
0:12:59 – Yeah, I wouldn’t have been worth it
0:13:00 without having the viral loops deal.
0:13:02 But now that they’re all built in,
0:13:04 it’s totally worth it and you should do it from day one.
0:13:06 But Facebook ads were the number one driver.
0:13:08 – What was the incentive tiers that you have on there?
0:13:09 – That’s what I’m about to say.
0:13:11 Facebook ads were the number one driver.
0:13:14 Referral program was probably the number two.
0:13:17 And I always tell this to people for any newsletter,
0:13:20 any free newsletter, that the first level should always,
0:13:22 it should be the only one that you ever care about
0:13:25 the first incentive because 90, first of all,
0:13:28 only like 10% of your readers will ever do any referring
0:13:32 and 98% of those, not exaggerating,
0:13:34 will never get past the first level.
0:13:37 So really only put thought into the first level,
0:13:38 not saying to just ignore the second and third,
0:13:39 but they really don’t matter that much.
0:13:41 And I say second and third ’cause that’s all I have,
0:13:44 but some people do four or five or more.
0:13:45 I don’t think you should do more than five.
0:13:48 So on that note, your first one should be free
0:13:50 and easy for you to fulfill.
0:13:54 It should be automated if you can
0:13:55 or as automated as possible.
0:13:58 So like, you don’t wanna be sending people stickers,
0:14:01 but you don’t wanna be having to put that in an envelope,
0:14:04 write an address or print out a label
0:14:05 and stick it on there.
0:14:06 You just don’t wanna have to do that
0:14:09 ’cause if you get a newsletter of 100,000 people,
0:14:10 you might have a thousand people that are referring
0:14:12 and or at some point you will
0:14:14 and that’s a lot of sticking stuff in envelopes.
0:14:17 So you wanna make it as easy as possible for you
0:14:18 and you wanna make it free,
0:14:19 but then you also have to think about
0:14:23 what’s actually desirable for this audience.
0:14:26 And I don’t remember where I heard,
0:14:27 well, I remember where I heard it,
0:14:29 but I don’t remember where he heard it.
0:14:31 Sam Parr, you’ve already brought that up to hustle once.
0:14:33 He said he one time was talking
0:14:35 to an old school newspaper publisher
0:14:37 and he said, “What’s your secret?”
0:14:39 And he said, “Names, I print names whenever I can.”
0:14:44 And so I do that, I print names whenever I possibly can.
0:14:46 You got some kid at the local high school,
0:14:48 got some scholarship,
0:14:49 then their name’s gonna be in there,
0:14:51 no matter how short it is.
0:14:52 We’re talking about the lacrosse team
0:14:54 that won the county championship.
0:14:57 Three of the girls on the team got hat tricks in the game.
0:14:58 We’re definitely gonna put their names in there
0:15:00 ’cause their parents are gonna read it and love it
0:15:01 and probably share it with their friends.
0:15:04 So on that note, I went for the referral program.
0:15:07 The first incentive was if you got three people
0:15:09 to join the newsletter,
0:15:10 then you got happy birthday wish
0:15:13 to the top of the newsletter on your birthday.
0:15:17 And that was incredibly popular.
0:15:19 It still is.
0:15:22 I stopped doing it because it’s been hard
0:15:23 to get referrals now.
0:15:24 Like you said, in the intro,
0:15:26 we kind of have almost half the town.
0:15:28 So finding people who don’t actually read it
0:15:29 is getting harder.
0:15:31 – Yeah, and if you’re only targeting women over 40,
0:15:33 it’s like, I imagine the other half of the town
0:15:35 is not fitting that demographic.
0:15:36 – Well, that’s who I was only targeting and advertising.
0:15:39 I’m happy if they read and I would love them.
0:15:40 – Sure, sure.
0:15:41 – But I wasn’t going after them
0:15:43 to build the core subscribers.
0:15:44 That is what I tell people now though,
0:15:45 they’re like, “How do I get referrals?”
0:15:47 And I’m like, “Honestly, ask men.”
0:15:50 Like ask the men in your life if they read the newsletter
0:15:52 because 75% of our audience is women.
0:15:55 So if you want referrals, don’t ask your girlfriends.
0:15:56 Ask your dude friends.
0:15:57 – Yeah, they’re already subscribing.
0:15:58 – Yeah, they are.
0:15:59 That’s the low hanging fruit.
0:16:00 If you want the easy referrals
0:16:02 and you want to gain the system, go after the men.
0:16:03 – Okay, so this was tier one.
0:16:06 Happy birthday wish at the top of the newsletter.
0:16:10 – Yeah, and we’ve done, I think we’ve done hundreds of those.
0:16:13 – Okay, that’s great. – People still ask for them.
0:16:15 Even though, so I’ve recently stopped doing it
0:16:16 and instead of doing that,
0:16:19 I said you can now join our private Facebook group
0:16:21 for first level referrals only,
0:16:22 which I don’t actually do anything with
0:16:24 and definitely need to do more.
0:16:26 But I think at some point,
0:16:29 and I haven’t figured out the way to do this yet,
0:16:32 that’s easy ’cause again, I’m all about easy.
0:16:35 I want to start selling those birthday shoutouts.
0:16:37 You know, like they do on the scoreboards
0:16:39 at sporting events.
0:16:40 – Right, right.
0:16:42 Pay 40 bucks, get your name on the jumbo tron type of deal.
0:16:43 – Exactly.
0:16:45 And so people love the birthday shoutout so much.
0:16:46 I think I could start selling them,
0:16:48 but I don’t want to sell more than two a day.
0:16:52 And I haven’t found a good system or integration
0:16:54 with, I use APR for a lot of things
0:16:56 where I can basically automate that,
0:16:58 but only limit it’s a two per day.
0:16:59 I haven’t done that.
0:17:01 I want to figure that out ’cause I do think we could make
0:17:03 maybe a couple of extra thousand dollars,
0:17:05 but we stopped doing that as the first level,
0:17:08 but it was wildly successful for three and a half years.
0:17:09 – Love it.
0:17:11 – And like I said, the second and third levels
0:17:12 don’t even really matter.
0:17:14 A lot of people get the first one.
0:17:16 Nobody really gets the second or third one.
0:17:18 And then you’ll have some people on the,
0:17:20 it’s just like a bell curve, right?
0:17:22 You’ll have some people on the complete other end
0:17:24 of the spectrum who get hundreds and hundreds,
0:17:26 maybe thousands of referrals.
0:17:27 And then you’ll have to figure out something
0:17:28 to do really nice for them.
0:17:33 Like we have one woman who has 625 referrals.
0:17:35 And she was the one who put it in the Facebook group.
0:17:37 She was the one that put it in the Facebook group,
0:17:38 which is how I’m lucky that she was,
0:17:40 ’cause that’s how I figured out where they all came from.
0:17:42 Otherwise, I wouldn’t have been able to know.
0:17:43 I would have seen that they came from Facebook
0:17:45 with our Google Analytics, but I wouldn’t have been able
0:17:47 to know who put them there or what page
0:17:48 or wherever they were.
0:17:50 So I saw her referrals jump overnight
0:17:52 and I was like, what’s her name?
0:17:54 I can’t remember.
0:17:56 I went to high school with her son,
0:17:59 which also helped reaching out to her.
0:18:02 But she got 625 referrals overnight
0:18:05 and I got her a gift card to her favorite restaurant.
0:18:07 The next best one is 120.
0:18:09 And we didn’t do anything incredible for that.
0:18:11 We could have, probably should have,
0:18:14 but she’s still super happy to support.
0:18:16 But she did just email me yesterday,
0:18:17 or this morning, actually, and ask,
0:18:20 can I have a birthday shout out for my daughter Florence?
0:18:22 And I was like, yeah, absolutely.
0:18:23 If you gave us 120 referrals,
0:18:24 even though we don’t really do that anymore,
0:18:26 you can absolutely have one of those
0:18:28 ’cause I’ll do anything for you.
0:18:30 – Yeah, okay, so that was tier one.
0:18:32 Was it just one, you prefer one friend
0:18:34 to get the initial shout out
0:18:35 or this now the private Facebook group?
0:18:37 – No, I’m greedy.
0:18:38 So I made the first level three.
0:18:40 Gotta make it an attainable number,
0:18:43 but you can push it to benefit yourself.
0:18:45 Like a lot of people do one and that’s fine,
0:18:46 but you can get away with three
0:18:48 and a lot of people will still do it and reach it.
0:18:50 And they’re not gonna say it’s too many.
0:18:51 Nobody says that.
0:18:53 I think if you only do one as the first incentive,
0:18:55 you’re kind of cheating yourself out of more growth
0:18:57 that you could get for pretty much free.
0:18:58 I wouldn’t do any more than three,
0:19:00 but I would definitely not do one.
0:19:03 – I like it from the standpoint of
0:19:05 heading through one subscriber into two.
0:19:07 Like this is an example from years ago on the show.
0:19:10 This is Tiffany Aliche, the budgetista,
0:19:13 and she was running her 30 day live richer challenge
0:19:15 and objective number one, day one,
0:19:16 go find yourself an accountability partner.
0:19:19 Like, boom, I just doubled my enrollment.
0:19:20 And it was like super smart.
0:19:22 More with Ryan in just a moment,
0:19:25 including the tools he uses to run the newsletter
0:19:27 and how he manages to compile and curate
0:19:30 a compelling read every weekday right after this.
0:19:33 Being an entrepreneur and being able to work remotely
0:19:35 definitely has its perks.
0:19:38 I’ve recorded podcasts everywhere from Vietnam to Italy,
0:19:40 drafted newsletters from Japan,
0:19:42 hosted mastermind meetings from Spain,
0:19:43 ended up being the middle of the night
0:19:46 to get to US business hours,
0:19:48 and outlined courses in Mexico.
0:19:51 The common thread of all of these trips though,
0:19:52 is Airbnb.
0:19:54 We love being able to get exactly what we’re looking for
0:19:58 in a place to stay and have a more local experience
0:20:01 than staying in some giant hotel chain.
0:20:02 And you know me, I’m always thinking about
0:20:05 the next side hustle idea, the next income stream, right?
0:20:07 And one that’s at the top of the list
0:20:10 is hosting our place on Airbnb while we’re traveling.
0:20:12 That way the house doesn’t have to sit empty.
0:20:14 We could use the income to help pay for the trip.
0:20:17 And we’ve heard from several successful Airbnb hosts
0:20:18 on the show.
0:20:20 And what’s interesting is a lot of them started
0:20:22 with almost that exact strategy,
0:20:25 running their place or even a spare room
0:20:26 while they’re out of town.
0:20:28 Taking inspiration from that,
0:20:31 you might have an Airbnb right under your nose.
0:20:34 In fact, your home might be worth more than you think.
0:20:38 You can find out how much at Airbnb.com/host.
0:20:41 That’s Airbnb.com/host to find out
0:20:43 how much your home is worth.
0:20:46 As business owners, we understand that good design
0:20:49 and product packaging can be key to growing your business.
0:20:50 And if your sales are lagging,
0:20:52 a rebrand might be part of the solution.
0:20:55 Still, it can be really challenging to figure out
0:20:57 how to even start the process.
0:20:57 If you’re asking yourself,
0:21:01 “Ah, is a rebrand really worth the effort and the cost?”
0:21:03 You’re gonna wanna check out a recent episode
0:21:06 of a great podcast called “This Is Small Business”
0:21:08 with Andrea Marquez that walks you through
0:21:10 the process of figuring this out.
0:21:12 The episode is called “How Good Design
0:21:14 Can Help Increase Sales,”
0:21:16 where I learned that design is so much more
0:21:18 than just aesthetics.
0:21:19 It impacts user experience.
0:21:21 It impacts brand perception.
0:21:23 And ultimately, it impacts business growth.
0:21:26 This is small business is full of practical insights
0:21:28 that you can apply to your business right now.
0:21:30 And it answers so many of the kinds of questions
0:21:32 that all entrepreneurs have.
0:21:34 Like, how to build your marketing strategy,
0:21:36 how to use email lists to increase revenue,
0:21:39 and tips to accelerate small business growth,
0:21:40 along with tons more.
0:21:42 So follow “This Is Small Business,”
0:21:46 an original podcast from Amazon, wherever you listen.
0:21:48 – All right, so today you’re sending with Beehive.
0:21:50 Initially, it sounded like it was MailChimp.
0:21:51 Today, Beehive.
0:21:54 What else is going on, tools and tech-wise,
0:21:55 to put all this stuff together?
0:21:59 – So, Beehive is probably the most important
0:22:01 because we use it to send,
0:22:03 actually send the emails and store the email addresses.
0:22:05 But second most important,
0:22:07 and it would be a close second is Notion.
0:22:11 I kind of live and die in Notion.
0:22:15 It is the source of pretty much everything.
0:22:17 It’s where we do all of our content for the newsletter.
0:22:20 It’s got a calendar in there that everything we’re doing.
0:22:22 It’s where we do all of our content planning
0:22:23 for social media.
0:22:26 It’s where I keep all my standard operating procedures,
0:22:28 my style guide for the newsletter,
0:22:30 which is really cool because it can be really interactive
0:22:33 and fun for someone to read the style guide,
0:22:34 which is usually boring.
0:22:36 So that’s a good thing to have in Notion
0:22:38 ’cause it’s just all the different blocks you can add
0:22:40 are really, really cool.
0:22:41 Literally, I keep everything in there.
0:22:45 Third most important would probably be Newspaper Manager,
0:22:50 which is a pretty old appearing software
0:22:54 that just tracks our advertising inventory and acts as a CRM.
0:22:58 I think if I were better at technology,
0:23:00 better at coding software production
0:23:04 and stuff like that, I would probably make my own
0:23:05 and I would probably try to sell it
0:23:07 and I would probably stop publishing local newsletters
0:23:09 ’cause there’s way more money in selling software
0:23:11 to the people who do these things than actually doing it
0:23:13 because I think this software–
0:23:14 – Yeah, so it travels into the gold rush.
0:23:16 – Exactly, exactly.
0:23:18 – Here’s the next side hustle, here’s the next thing, yeah.
0:23:20 – Yeah, I just don’t know how to do it,
0:23:22 which can be figured out but needs money
0:23:25 that I don’t have to invest in it yet, but I still want to.
0:23:27 But it’s a good piece of software.
0:23:28 I was about to say it’s a great piece of software.
0:23:29 It’s not a great piece of software.
0:23:30 It’s a good piece of software.
0:23:31 But–
0:23:32 – Because the great one is coming.
0:23:34 – The great one is coming and it’s gonna be called
0:23:36 who knows what, but I’m gonna make it.
0:23:38 It’s really important because we limit our inventory
0:23:42 every day, we have five ads of three different kinds
0:23:44 and there can only be one of the top two
0:23:46 and three of the bottom two or the bottom one
0:23:48 and we can’t sell more than that each day,
0:23:50 otherwise we’re screwed ’cause we can’t just add another page
0:23:54 like a magazine can, we just have a set thing.
0:23:56 Before I was keeping track of all the ads in Notion
0:24:00 and that was not good because it didn’t have any inventory
0:24:03 limiting ability and it just wasn’t the right.
0:24:06 There wasn’t a CRM, it wasn’t good for selling ads.
0:24:08 So that’s probably our third most critical piece of software
0:24:11 but that’s like, I don’t even remember how much
0:24:15 I pay for it anymore ’cause I don’t look at the bill too often
0:24:17 but it’s several hundred dollars a month
0:24:20 and I’m like, I could build this piece of software
0:24:22 ’cause I know exactly what it needs to do
0:24:26 because I’m doing it, I’m living this life.
0:24:27 When I was looking for one, I was like,
0:24:28 I know exactly what this needs to do,
0:24:30 I know exactly what piece of software I’m looking for
0:24:34 ’cause it’s such a specific need that when I find it,
0:24:35 I’m in, like I got it.
0:24:37 There’s one out there called Sponsy
0:24:39 that is selling software just like that
0:24:41 for they’re focused on newsletters
0:24:45 but at the time, it just wasn’t powerful enough.
0:24:47 I think they’ve added a couple more features now
0:24:50 that are more powerful but at the end of the day,
0:24:52 there can definitely be more than one of those.
0:24:55 – It talked to me about the content side of things
0:24:58 because it is a free newsletter.
0:25:00 The content has to be excellent
0:25:02 to get people to continue to open it
0:25:04 and continue to stay subscribed
0:25:06 and be able to view the ads
0:25:07 or eventually get into ad sales.
0:25:10 But if I’m starting out and I wanna do this for Sammamish
0:25:13 which is population 65,000,
0:25:15 like similar sized town, a little bit bigger, like, okay.
0:25:18 I don’t know if anybody else is attempting to do it here.
0:25:20 Maybe it’s like ripe to come in
0:25:21 and see that market opportunity.
0:25:24 The challenge is doing it daily and I guess you mentioned,
0:25:27 well, when I was starting out, I did it once a week
0:25:28 and then I moved to three days a week.
0:25:29 I guess you could scale it up
0:25:33 but like consistently coming up with great content.
0:25:35 That’s all local focused.
0:25:37 I’m curious, one, how you source all that stuff
0:25:39 and then how you put it together
0:25:41 and do it every day of the week.
0:25:43 – It’s easier than people think.
0:25:45 At least it is now after three and a half years
0:25:47 of doing it, coming up on four.
0:25:48 – It’s become a habit, yeah.
0:25:49 – But even in the beginning,
0:25:51 it was easier than I thought
0:25:53 because after a certain amount of time,
0:25:57 you become the source or at least a source
0:26:01 that people can go to to get their press
0:26:04 for whatever they’re doing or yeah, just that.
0:26:07 So you have to just establish yourself as a source
0:26:09 and then people will start coming to you
0:26:11 and then the hard thing actually becomes,
0:26:12 and I’ve always said this
0:26:13 and I say this to my head of content all the time
0:26:15 that I just hired,
0:26:18 it’s more important what you don’t include than what you do.
0:26:20 It’s more important what you say no to
0:26:21 ’cause like you said,
0:26:22 you have to keep the content excellent every day
0:26:24 so people keep coming back.
0:26:26 So we get sent a lot of things
0:26:28 and I’m not gonna say anything specific
0:26:29 because I don’t wanna,
0:26:31 on the off chance anybody from Annapolis is listening to this,
0:26:33 I don’t wanna get anybody upset
0:26:36 because of saying their events not cool.
0:26:37 But we get sent a lot of stuff
0:26:40 where I’m just like that isn’t gonna go in.
0:26:42 That’s not cool enough.
0:26:44 It doesn’t have broad enough appeal.
0:26:46 Maybe it’s just a very specific group of people
0:26:47 that wanna know this
0:26:50 and we’re sending out to every single person in Annapolis
0:26:52 or whatever, half of it.
0:26:54 But we don’t do any kind of segment thing like that
0:26:57 so we’re giving people specific things they’re interested in.
0:26:59 It’s just like sometimes you gotta decide
0:27:00 that’s not going in.
0:27:01 That’s not cool enough.
0:27:04 That is not broad enough appeal.
0:27:06 But how do we get content?
0:27:08 We just look at a bunch of places.
0:27:10 Probably like 50 websites that we check every day,
0:27:13 some combination of the press release sites
0:27:16 from the city and county and fire department
0:27:19 and organizations like that to the local newspaper.
0:27:21 We still have one of those,
0:27:23 a couple blogs that post stuff,
0:27:25 couple individual people that are posting stuff,
0:27:27 regularly good content.
0:27:29 – Yeah, so it’s a lot of work to kind of scour through this
0:27:31 and compile and just curate
0:27:34 what is the most important or most interesting.
0:27:36 – Yeah, that’s why the newsletter has value.
0:27:39 – Because if you’re going to comb through
0:27:41 all of these things,
0:27:45 understand, or well, even before that step,
0:27:47 pick which of them actually matter,
0:27:50 understand all of them individually
0:27:53 and then summarize them.
0:27:54 That’s a lot of work.
0:27:56 And the average person,
0:27:58 especially the average person who reads our newsletter,
0:28:02 like mom with kids or working professional,
0:28:05 they don’t have three to four hours a day
0:28:09 to read all these stories, decide which ones are important,
0:28:10 and then actually read through them
0:28:12 and understand them enough to tell their friends about them.
0:28:14 This is effectively what we do.
0:28:16 And so that’s why it is valuable.
0:28:17 It’s just, it’s a time saver.
0:28:19 All the information,
0:28:21 in the beginning, all the information we got
0:28:23 was 100% public and anybody could have gotten it.
0:28:27 Now, we are, like I said, the source or a source
0:28:29 where people are sending us stuff.
0:28:30 And sometimes we have to sit on stories
0:28:32 before we can put them out
0:28:34 because the business isn’t ready to announce
0:28:36 that they’re opening yet, but we know about it
0:28:39 and no one else does or very few other people do.
0:28:41 So not everything we’re doing now is publicly available.
0:28:44 Some people are giving us inside scoops,
0:28:46 if you will, pun intended,
0:28:50 or press releases that are not getting sent to everybody else.
0:28:54 I don’t know, but you really just have to get the ball rolling
0:28:56 ’cause you’ll find good content in the beginning.
0:28:58 And as long as you can do that for a couple of months
0:29:02 and stay consistent and be a great source,
0:29:04 then you’ll start getting more content
0:29:06 than you care to handle.
0:29:08 And that won’t be a concern anymore.
0:29:10 Or you’ll go back to something that you did a while ago,
0:29:12 like at any point in time,
0:29:14 I could throw in a link to our stories
0:29:19 of the best coffee shops in town or the best pizza in town.
0:29:22 And even better, I can ask you if you agree with my assessment
0:29:24 or my writer’s assessment of what is the best in town.
0:29:27 So you start to build up your own content
0:29:29 that if you are light on a day,
0:29:32 then you can hand that off or include that.
0:29:33 But also at the end of the day,
0:29:34 if you’re doing an email newsletter,
0:29:36 no one’s ever gonna complain
0:29:38 about getting a shorter email, right?
0:29:39 When was the last time you complained?
0:29:40 – Fair, fair.
0:29:41 – Oh, this email wasn’t long enough.
0:29:43 No, they just wanna get on with their day
0:29:46 or they’re just reading it.
0:29:47 They’re reading it on the toilet
0:29:48 or they’re reading it in the bathroom,
0:29:50 waiting in line for coffee or something like that.
0:29:52 As long as there’s like, I try to make sure
0:29:54 there’s just like one super, super valuable thing every day,
0:29:56 like something that everyone wants to know.
0:29:59 And as long as you keep pretty consistently every day,
0:30:03 something in there, then you’ll become sticky.
0:30:05 – And you’re organizing these in-notion,
0:30:07 kind of as you’re scouring through these 50 different sources,
0:30:09 like, okay, that’s interesting, drag it over here, okay?
0:30:11 That’s interesting, drag it over here,
0:30:14 and then compiling the newsletter from there.
0:30:17 – Yeah, that’s how I did it when it was just me.
0:30:20 Now, I have an assistant that goes through all the sources
0:30:23 and she just does anything that’s related to an app
0:30:25 as she puts it into Notion.
0:30:29 And then I look at that basically as soon as she’s done that,
0:30:30 like, I’m on Do Not Disturb,
0:30:31 so I didn’t get the notification,
0:30:34 but we started recording here at two and it’s 2.56 now.
0:30:36 She probably sent a message around 2.30
0:30:38 that she had done that for the afternoon.
0:30:42 So, I’ll go through as soon as she’s done–
0:30:43 – For tomorrow’s edition.
0:30:46 – For tomorrow’s edition and I’ll assign the stories.
0:30:47 Now that I have two writers as well,
0:30:51 we cut off at 3pm, so anything that comes in after 3pm,
0:30:53 we’ll go to the next day’s scoop.
0:30:55 Today, I’ll look at the afternoon assignments and see
0:30:57 if there’s anything in there that really is important
0:31:00 that can’t wait until Friday and I’ll write it if so,
0:31:03 just ’cause I’m on the podcast during that time
0:31:05 when I normally would be looking at what those stories are.
0:31:07 But I’ve just hired that head of content now
0:31:10 that that’ll be her job is to look through
0:31:12 all those stories, anything that says Annapolis,
0:31:14 my assistant will throw it in there,
0:31:16 and then the head of content will sift through,
0:31:19 like I do right now and decide what’s actually important,
0:31:21 what do we need to include?
0:31:24 What could we include if when we go through this stuff
0:31:25 that we need to include and there’s really not
0:31:29 that many stories, what might not be totally up to standard,
0:31:32 but can definitely, it could fit and we just need
0:31:35 some content ’cause we don’t wanna do nothing in there.
0:31:38 I try to have like eight stories every day, at least.
0:31:40 Something like that.
0:31:43 On a good, busy, real good day, we might have 16
0:31:44 and they’re all really, really short.
0:31:45 Some of them are less than 100 words,
0:31:47 most of them are less than 100 words,
0:31:50 but if I’m at like five,
0:31:52 yeah, maybe I’ll let the quality drop down a little bit
0:31:55 just so I can get one or two more in there.
0:31:56 – Yeah, you said something earlier was,
0:31:59 it’s more important what you don’t include
0:32:02 and this is my like working theory of podcasting too.
0:32:04 It’s like, yeah, the episodes you air have to be great,
0:32:06 but equally, it’s the ones that you don’t air.
0:32:08 They never see the light of day
0:32:09 that you decide not to record.
0:32:10 It’s like, ah, that didn’t quite make the cut
0:32:12 and it sounds like it’s the same thing here
0:32:15 and the other parallel is after a while,
0:32:17 you get a lot of inbound, right?
0:32:19 You get guest pitches or you get story pitches
0:32:21 or stuff that comes to you, but you know,
0:32:22 people say, hey, you ought to talk to so-and-so
0:32:24 and it sounds like the same thing here.
0:32:26 People start to share their events with you
0:32:29 versus having to go out and try and source everything
0:32:32 yourself, so lots of parallels there
0:32:34 and I think that’s pretty interesting,
0:32:36 but lots of work on this curation side
0:32:37 and that’s where the value comes from.
0:32:39 Like, look, we’re sifting through these dozens
0:32:41 of different sources to bring you the best of the best
0:32:43 and that’s why the newsletter has value.
0:32:45 We’re about to get to the monetization part,
0:32:47 how Naptown Scoop actually makes money
0:32:49 every time they hit send, but first,
0:32:51 let’s take a moment to thank our own sponsors
0:32:53 for helping make this episode free for everyone.
0:32:56 Let’s shift gears and talk about the monetization side.
0:33:00 It sounds like it’s primarily ad monetized.
0:33:02 At what point, like how many subscribers,
0:33:04 how many months in did you start selling
0:33:05 your first ads on this thing?
0:33:08 – I learned from somebody, and I can’t remember who,
0:33:12 that you should be open to it immediately
0:33:16 and so I had a link or like an encouragement in there,
0:33:17 if you want your business in here, let me know
0:33:20 and it was like within the second or third week
0:33:23 that somebody reached out and actually ended up
0:33:24 agreeing to something.
0:33:27 This was a web design agency that wanted to advertise
0:33:30 and I said, I will give you, I think it was five
0:33:33 or six ads, I think it was six ads, six ads,
0:33:36 any time in the next six months, you can use them,
0:33:38 but you have to pay $500 today.
0:33:41 And for some reason, this person said yes,
0:33:44 and so we did that and that was how we made the first money.
0:33:46 I don’t know if I did that again or if I done,
0:33:48 I just started selling like, here’s a four pack
0:33:51 for this many dollars, but it was really quick
0:33:54 that we started selling ads, not a lot of ads,
0:33:56 but enough ads where I was like, okay,
0:33:59 I’m still comfortable spending $1,000 on Facebook ads
0:34:01 this week or a couple hundred dollars on Facebook ads
0:34:05 this week, ’cause I know that at least on some level,
0:34:07 somebody is gonna pay to be in here.
0:34:10 So the magic T word is traction.
0:34:13 I had it and I was like, all right, I have a little bit.
0:34:14 – Let’s do it.
0:34:15 – I bet you that there will be a lot
0:34:18 and I can go all in on this and still spend a bunch
0:34:19 of money on Facebook ads.
0:34:24 It took a while to get meaningful dollars,
0:34:29 like probably many months, but got some right away.
0:34:30 And that’s, I tell people all the time,
0:34:32 if they’re gonna start this thing,
0:34:34 you should always have a link
0:34:36 or an encouragement to advertise.
0:34:38 No matter how many subscribers you have,
0:34:40 just get dollars somehow.
0:34:43 – I like that, including that in the footer of the email,
0:34:46 like your ad here, you’ll see your message inquire
0:34:48 about advertising in future editions,
0:34:49 just to plant that seed.
0:34:52 – Yeah, ’cause a lot of people won’t see it and think of it,
0:34:55 but if you say they can, they’ll think,
0:34:56 oh yeah, maybe I will reach out.
0:34:57 – Yeah, you see it.
0:34:59 Justin Welsh is one of these examples
0:35:01 where you see it like down at the bottom,
0:35:03 there’s a link to book your sponsorship spot
0:35:04 for an upcoming newsletter.
0:35:06 I don’t know if he does any vetting of like,
0:35:08 I’m not advertising that.
0:35:10 There’s like an implied endorsement here.
0:35:12 – Yeah, we definitely did not do a lot
0:35:13 of vetting in the beginning,
0:35:17 but maybe about a year in started actually doing that.
0:35:18 It’s like, I only wanna be associated
0:35:20 with really, really good brands.
0:35:23 – I think it’s illustrative of maybe the type of client
0:35:25 that would make sense, especially at that price point
0:35:28 when it’s like, dude, if you get one new client from this,
0:35:32 like he raises your $500 ad expense and then some,
0:35:34 but curious how you have it priced today.
0:35:37 I think you mentioned we have five different ad slots per day,
0:35:40 I guess probably based on placement and visibility
0:35:41 and structure of those ads.
0:35:44 – Yeah, so three different kinds.
0:35:48 The bottom kind has three each day.
0:35:51 So top one has your logo at the top,
0:35:55 a picture up to 150 words, it’s the first ad.
0:35:57 Unless we have a headline story,
0:35:58 it’s the first thing in the newsletter.
0:36:01 So probably about 60% of the time,
0:36:03 it’s the top thing anybody sees.
0:36:06 Then in the middle, we call it a feature ad
0:36:08 and that has a hundred words of photo
0:36:09 and that’s right in the middle.
0:36:12 And then right near our live music section at the bottom,
0:36:14 which is our most popular thing,
0:36:16 we have three ads we call baseline,
0:36:20 which are text only 70 words and headline and a link
0:36:22 and everybody, all these can be linked.
0:36:24 It’s funny now at the beginning,
0:36:27 those ads I sold that web design guy were headline ads
0:36:30 or what a very early version of those
0:36:33 and it was $500 for six of them.
0:36:35 Now an individual headline ad,
0:36:39 if anybody wants to buy one is $812.50
0:36:42 and it goes down with volume.
0:36:45 If you’re gonna buy 12, then that unit cost goes down.
0:36:48 If you’re gonna buy 24, that unit cost goes down.
0:36:50 If you’re gonna go buy 48, be crazy
0:36:52 and spread those over the next two years.
0:36:53 That unit cost will go down
0:36:56 or we have two advertisers that do that every single week.
0:36:57 They just pay a lot of money,
0:37:00 but the prices are very, very different
0:37:02 from when we first started.
0:37:05 Everything is really just pulling out of thin air.
0:37:07 I just, how much does this cost?
0:37:11 $500 for six ads, everything was just thrown out.
0:37:14 – Is there a rule of thumb for X price
0:37:17 based on every thousand subscribers
0:37:17 or something like that?
0:37:19 – I heard a rumor back in the day
0:37:22 that Morning Brew was charging $70 per thousand
0:37:25 and so I kind of roughly based it on that
0:37:28 and it’s actually still kind of around there, our top ad.
0:37:30 It’s like very loosely based on that
0:37:33 or I don’t think it’s loosely based on that anymore.
0:37:34 Maybe it’s just worked out that way
0:37:37 that it’s still on there.
0:37:38 Once it started stabilizing,
0:37:39 I used to change prices every week
0:37:41 ’cause we would be adding hundreds of subscribers
0:37:43 every week and I’ll be like,
0:37:46 I just sold that to you for 200 bucks for 800 subscribers
0:37:48 and I just had a really good run of Facebook ads
0:37:51 and now we have 1600 and I’m not gonna charge $200 again.
0:37:54 So I would change it every single week.
0:37:56 Then I started changing it, I think like every month
0:37:57 and then it was every couple of months
0:37:59 and now I just change it every year
0:38:02 and it’s not on any kind of,
0:38:04 oh, we have this many more subscribers.
0:38:05 It should be this much more.
0:38:09 Now I just, I’m basically up it on inventory.
0:38:11 If we sell out then,
0:38:12 and it’s like we sell out really easily,
0:38:13 I know it’s too low.
0:38:15 If it’s harder, but we still sell out,
0:38:17 I’m like, okay, we can do a little bump.
0:38:18 If we’re not selling at all,
0:38:19 thankfully this hasn’t happened yet,
0:38:22 then maybe we stay the same or even worse, go lower.
0:38:25 Now it’s not really based on any kind of formula.
0:38:28 It’s just based on feel of,
0:38:32 oh, last year we sold all of these way too easily.
0:38:33 Okay, we’ll double the price
0:38:35 and then we sold them all out again,
0:38:36 but it took longer.
0:38:38 I was like, okay, cool, that’s probably a good number.
0:38:40 That was two years ago, we doubled it.
0:38:43 Last year, we just went up by, I think it was 20%.
0:38:45 This year, probably just go up by 10%
0:38:47 and maybe stabilize somewhere around there
0:38:51 and just upgrade the prices every year by eight to 10%.
0:38:54 – Is it most common to sell like a multi-month package,
0:38:57 like you’re gonna be featured eight times
0:38:58 over the next three months?
0:39:00 Like is that how it’s typically structured?
0:39:02 – I like to sell long packages.
0:39:05 We have people who sign on to be on there
0:39:07 every other week for two years.
0:39:08 We have people who are on there
0:39:10 every other week for one year.
0:39:13 We have some people who are just pretty seasonal,
0:39:16 but they’re on for the same six months
0:39:19 and they’ll sign two year deals for those six months.
0:39:21 I just like that ’cause it’s easier
0:39:24 and also it ups your average client value.
0:39:26 There’s a, I can’t say too much about this,
0:39:29 but there’s a website that I wanna buy right now
0:39:31 ’cause I think I can do a lot better.
0:39:33 I think it’s a great opportunity
0:39:37 and their average, they have way, way more visibility
0:39:41 than I do, way more impressions, way more uniques,
0:39:46 but their average customer value is like one fifth of mine,
0:39:48 which is why I think I can buy it
0:39:49 and do really well with it.
0:39:52 But I’m just always trying to increase that.
0:39:54 I have a dentist client right now
0:39:55 who’s on just once a month
0:39:57 and our standard is really twice a month.
0:40:00 So they’re on once a month, but they’ve been killing it.
0:40:01 They’ve been doing really well with it.
0:40:05 So rather than trying to go sell a new client,
0:40:06 it’s way easier to just sell someone
0:40:08 who’s already selling with you
0:40:10 and increase that customer value.
0:40:11 – Increase their frequency.
0:40:12 – Yeah, I went to them and said,
0:40:14 “Hey, do you guys, it’s been working out pretty well
0:40:15 “once a month, gonna juice it
0:40:18 “and you’ll get a better unit rate
0:40:19 “and you’ll be in there more
0:40:21 “and you’ve already made your money back.”
0:40:23 And then a lot because I know you told me
0:40:25 how many clients you got and I’m kinda guessing
0:40:26 what your average customer value is worth
0:40:28 based on industry comparisons.
0:40:31 And I think I’m probably pretty close.
0:40:32 And so it’s just way easier to make those sales
0:40:35 than to go out and cold call a new person
0:40:35 and get a new one.
0:40:39 So I’m always trying to increase customer value.
0:40:42 And one way to do that is just raise prices every year.
0:40:47 And nobody has ever canceled because of the increase.
0:40:51 We’ve had people that advertised, stopped advertising,
0:40:53 came back for whatever reason.
0:40:55 They came back later, maybe in this case,
0:40:57 two years later and asked for a new proposal
0:40:58 and I told them and they were like,
0:41:00 “Whoa, that’s too expensive for us.
0:41:01 “We can’t do that anymore.”
0:41:03 But they’re also a nonprofit organization.
0:41:04 That’s a little different.
0:41:06 No business, no for-profit business has ever canceled
0:41:08 because we raised rates.
0:41:10 – Was that, so a little bit of inbound
0:41:12 based on the call to action at the bottom
0:41:14 in the early days and then a lot of cold calling,
0:41:17 a lot of outbound sales, trying to get people signed up?
0:41:20 – No, now a lot of cold calling
0:41:21 kinda hit a number where it’s,
0:41:23 I don’t wanna call it critical mass
0:41:25 ’cause that makes it sound like can’t grow anymore.
0:41:28 But this is one of those things I just did really well,
0:41:30 got really lucky with.
0:41:35 I figured that if I could get a really good partner in town
0:41:37 that would just be good.
0:41:39 I didn’t know why, I just knew it would be good.
0:41:42 And there was this guy who was spending money everywhere.
0:41:44 He’s a realtor, spending money everywhere.
0:41:46 I was like, I need to get some money out of this guy
0:41:49 ’cause he’s just putting his money everywhere.
0:41:50 And I bet you I could get a lot
0:41:53 and that would be really good momentum.
0:41:54 And like I said, I just know it’ll be good.
0:41:56 I don’t know why, but I know it’ll be good.
0:41:58 So long story short, we did get him.
0:42:00 A lot of cold calling, finally got a meeting,
0:42:01 finally sold him.
0:42:05 And after that, inbound leads poured in
0:42:08 because it was super validating that this guy
0:42:10 who I said he was spending money everywhere,
0:42:12 and he was, but it wasn’t just that.
0:42:14 It wasn’t like, oh yeah, great, you got that guy’s money
0:42:16 and he’s spending money everywhere, so that’s fine.
0:42:20 He’s the best at what he does, not even close.
0:42:24 He’s the best, like he’s the best anecdotally,
0:42:28 just if you work with him and feel how he makes you feel.
0:42:30 But he’s also the best by number.
0:42:31 He only sells waterfront houses.
0:42:33 He’s the number one individual
0:42:35 in the state of Maryland by a lot.
0:42:36 He’s just absolutely the best.
0:42:38 And so once we got him in there,
0:42:40 it was super validating for us.
0:42:42 And we got a ton of inbound leads.
0:42:44 And I didn’t really do any outbound sales.
0:42:46 I would just kind of take meetings with inbound leads.
0:42:50 And that’s how we got to that 200,000 in revenue
0:42:51 that we did last year.
0:42:55 Now I’ve hired a head of sales who does a lot of outbound
0:42:59 and has been closing a lot of new deals.
0:43:01 He’s only about a month in.
0:43:03 My goal is 350 this year.
0:43:06 That’s looking probably not likely,
0:43:09 but I think we’ll get close to it.
0:43:11 Even if we got to 300, I’d be stoked.
0:43:15 50% growth in a year after not anywhere near 50% growth
0:43:16 would be a good step up.
0:43:19 So yeah, that’s the next step.
0:43:20 But a lot of inbound,
0:43:23 just because we got lucky picking this one business.
0:43:25 And I was like, I know it’ll be good,
0:43:26 but I didn’t know why.
0:43:29 I didn’t think anybody would inbound come inbound from it.
0:43:30 I just knew it would be a good thing.
0:43:32 I knew it would be a good momentum swing.
0:43:34 And it was much bigger than I anticipated.
0:43:37 – Yeah, it’s another example of a type of client
0:43:39 where if I get one lead from this,
0:43:40 even if I get three leads a year,
0:43:43 like if I’m selling a million dollar waterfront house,
0:43:45 like my commission from that races all that expense.
0:43:48 Plus it’s just, it sounds like he wants to be everywhere.
0:43:51 Anyways, and it’s like front and center
0:43:52 in people’s inboxes.
0:43:53 It’s a smart place to be for that.
0:43:54 – That’s even better than that.
0:43:56 His average home price is 2.6 million.
0:43:58 So he’s definitely making his money back.
0:44:00 And then this is the real secret.
0:44:02 We do, for the most part,
0:44:05 we do exclusive advertisers per industry.
0:44:07 If they spend a reasonable amount of money with us,
0:44:09 like we’re not gonna give the $1,500 customer,
0:44:12 $1,500 your customer exclusivity in their industry,
0:44:14 but they’re spending tens of thousands.
0:44:15 – Yeah, yeah, yeah.
0:44:16 – That’s high for us.
0:44:18 That would be something that warrants exclusivity.
0:44:23 So I do no other residential real estate agents.
0:44:25 And he knows that if he did cancel,
0:44:27 if I said the price is now this,
0:44:28 and he was like, nope, I’m out,
0:44:32 then I would make probably a maximum of three phone calls.
0:44:34 And I would have another real estate agent in there,
0:44:37 probably at the new price or close to it.
0:44:39 And he would never get back in
0:44:41 because we would do exclusive for them too.
0:44:44 And he got it first.
0:44:45 He was the first agent we’ve ever had.
0:44:47 We’ve never had another one.
0:44:50 And he doesn’t want to lose that, I don’t think.
0:44:52 – It sounds like he was kind of the anchor tenant
0:44:54 and ended up attracting others as well.
0:44:55 Like if you had a retail plaza
0:44:58 and you attracted the Walmart or something.
0:44:59 Yeah, very good.
0:45:02 – I call them the white whale.
0:45:06 – Yeah, and you’ve got a lot of inventory to sell.
0:45:10 We’re talking five ad spots a day times five days a week.
0:45:11 And one thing that’s interesting,
0:45:14 even at the 200,000 revenue level,
0:45:16 already at or above this metric
0:45:20 that traditionally heard of in email marketing of a dollar
0:45:21 per subscriber per month,
0:45:23 which for my world and sending once a week,
0:45:26 like that’s pretty high, but sending every day,
0:45:27 like the would pencil out.
0:45:31 And if you get to 300,000 at 18, 19, 20,000 subscribers,
0:45:32 you’re well above that.
0:45:35 And that’s pretty impressive.
0:45:36 And the question…
0:45:37 – I’ve actually never heard that step.
0:45:41 – Oh, I think I’m from Russell Brunson from ClickFunnels.
0:45:44 The question is like, at what point
0:45:45 does it kind of max out?
0:45:48 Like you’re already at half the population.
0:45:51 How much room to grow this thing is there?
0:45:53 And even not to say that it has to grow indefinitely,
0:45:54 but it’s like, okay,
0:45:56 can we get this thing to half a million a year
0:45:58 and then go focus on our software project?
0:45:59 Where do you want to take it?
0:46:04 – Yeah, I think audience is probably pretty close to maxed out.
0:46:06 Like I said, I’m not spending on any Facebook ads
0:46:10 at this point because I have to spend a lot to acquire a reader.
0:46:12 But we are still getting new readers
0:46:13 because people are telling their friends
0:46:16 or we have SEO content or something like that.
0:46:17 So we’re not totally maxed out.
0:46:19 Like we’re still growing every single day,
0:46:21 even if it’s by one or two email addresses,
0:46:24 it’s bigger every single day.
0:46:26 And most of the time it’s more than one or two,
0:46:28 but it’s probably more like seven to 10,
0:46:29 which is not a lot,
0:46:31 but we’re not doing anything to acquire those seven to 10.
0:46:32 So that makes me happy.
0:46:34 We’re not losing any.
0:46:35 In terms of revenue,
0:46:38 I think it probably maxes out just newsletter
0:46:42 at four to 500,000.
0:46:43 And that’s with everything completely sold out.
0:46:44 So you’re probably never gonna get there.
0:46:46 Probably 400 would be a really good target.
0:46:48 350 is an aggressive target for this year.
0:46:50 400 will definitely be the target
0:46:51 for next year from newsletter.
0:46:53 But then we can start selling Instagram stuff.
0:46:56 We’re selling a lot more Instagram reels now.
0:46:59 And those are pretty good margin things.
0:47:02 It’s not really any work for me.
0:47:04 If I do it right, set it up right.
0:47:05 – Who makes that?
0:47:07 So the company makes those and you post them on the feed?
0:47:08 – Well, those are my favorite.
0:47:09 Sometimes that does happen.
0:47:10 The company’s like,
0:47:11 “Hey, we have a video, can we post it on your feed?”
0:47:13 And I’m like, yeah, it’s a good looking video.
0:47:14 We can post that.
0:47:16 – What do you charge for those?
0:47:17 – I’ll give them a little bit of a discount,
0:47:19 especially if it worked with them on other things
0:47:20 or they’re gonna buy a couple of them.
0:47:22 Like we have a running company that,
0:47:24 running race company that bought a couple of those,
0:47:25 but just had their own video.
0:47:30 I think we charged them like $500 to post each one
0:47:32 because they did two.
0:47:34 Usually it would be 800,
0:47:37 but that also relies on maybe us making a little bit of it.
0:47:41 Now at this point, my standard price for that is 1500 bucks.
0:47:42 If somebody called and said,
0:47:44 “I have my own video, we’ve worked with you before.”
0:47:47 I’d probably go down to a thousand at this point.
0:47:50 But if somebody’s gonna come in and do,
0:47:51 we’re gonna produce something.
0:47:52 I have to go and film it
0:47:54 or I have to pay someone to go and film it.
0:47:55 We have to pay a couple of people to go film it
0:47:57 ’cause in some cases, like when it’s coming up,
0:48:00 I need a video and I need a drone.
0:48:02 So maybe that would be over 2,000.
0:48:06 But based on who it is and their average customer value,
0:48:08 they should make their money back pretty easily.
0:48:09 It’s all about the value that you’re creating.
0:48:11 – What role did Instagram play
0:48:13 in the growth of their business?
0:48:16 – It’s hard to say how many people have come to the website
0:48:18 and converted from Instagram.
0:48:20 But in terms of the growth of the business,
0:48:23 it’s been fantastic because it’s the public validator.
0:48:25 Nobody can see how many newsletter subscribers
0:48:28 that we have every day except me and the team.
0:48:31 And then if anybody gets the media kit, they can see it.
0:48:34 But anybody can go see the Instagram.
0:48:35 They can see how many people follow it.
0:48:37 They can see how many people are actually liking the post
0:48:39 and commenting on the post, which is a good number.
0:48:42 It’s just a great reputation thing.
0:48:45 It hasn’t been a lot of advertising dollars
0:48:46 that people were spending on there.
0:48:48 It hasn’t been a ton of newsletter subscribers
0:48:52 that we’re getting, but it’s a really, really good wow value.
0:48:53 It’s funny.
0:48:54 My newsletter is smaller.
0:48:57 It’s 18,400 compared to 22,000.
0:48:59 But if you know anything about newsletter versus Instagram,
0:49:01 you know that’s much more powerful.
0:49:02 – Totally.
0:49:04 – And newsletter last year generated,
0:49:09 I think like 170 in revenue and then Instagram was like three.
0:49:11 So everybody introduces me though as they’re like,
0:49:11 “Oh, this is Ryan.
0:49:13 He’s got this really big Instagram.”
0:49:15 And I’m just laughing on the inside
0:49:16 because it looks really big.
0:49:17 And it is big.
0:49:19 It’s a big Instagram, especially for our town.
0:49:21 – Yeah, they’ve been a local market.
0:49:23 – But I should have introduced this guy
0:49:23 with the local newsletter
0:49:26 if they were turning about actual power.
0:49:27 Like what you could do with it.
0:49:31 We’re doing a blood drive next week for our local hospital.
0:49:34 And I put it in there today, 6 a.m.
0:49:37 I went to check around, I think 11.
0:49:38 How many spots were left?
0:49:40 There was one spot left.
0:49:45 And so we filled up 35 spots in three hours or four hours,
0:49:47 five hours with just the newsletter.
0:49:50 I didn’t even have time to put it on Instagram yet.
0:49:52 So I do think it’s always funny
0:49:54 when people introduce me as the guy with the big Instagram.
0:49:55 – Yeah, that’s what they could see.
0:49:57 – Actually, the newsletter is the pretty good thing here.
0:50:00 But yeah, it’s not the thing that you can go on and see.
0:50:02 You can go be impressed by 22,000 followers.
0:50:04 You have no idea how many other people
0:50:05 are getting this newsletter that you get every day.
0:50:08 – Yeah, well, this has been fascinating stuff.
0:50:09 You got me thinking about like,
0:50:11 oh, could I do this for Sammamish?
0:50:12 Should I do this for Sammamish?
0:50:15 I know Nathan Berry was starting up something for Boise.
0:50:17 So I was like, well, maybe there’s something here.
0:50:20 You make a compelling case for the local newsletter business.
0:50:23 You can check it out, naptownscoop.com.
0:50:27 You can find Ryan at Life of Underscore Scoop on Twitter.
0:50:28 It’s a good place to follow along
0:50:31 and see what’s going on in the local newsletter business.
0:50:32 Let’s wrap this thing up
0:50:34 with your number one tip for side hustle nation.
0:50:38 – Read the book, How to Get Rich by Felix Dennis.
0:50:41 It is, at the very least, entertaining.
0:50:44 And at best, it could possibly change your life.
0:50:46 It’s just absolutely incredible.
0:50:47 Have you read it, Nick?
0:50:48 – I have heard of it, but have not read it.
0:50:51 – Like I said, even if it’s just for entertainment, read it.
0:50:55 ‘Cause the guy’s a beautiful writer and he’s hilarious
0:50:56 and he’s very interesting.
0:50:58 So he tells this great story about his life.
0:51:02 But if you’re interested in your own business in any way,
0:51:03 it’s probably gonna be your favorite book.
0:51:04 It’s so amazing.
0:51:06 So that’s my tip to anybody.
0:51:09 Read it, read it again.
0:51:12 Buy it if you audible it, which I do recommend.
0:51:14 The guy who reads it has a beautiful accent.
0:51:16 But buy it, physical copy, honestly.
0:51:18 It’s an instruction manual too.
0:51:20 There’s some really amazing things in there.
0:51:22 – All right, How to Get Rich by Felix Dennis.
0:51:24 We’ll link that up for you.
0:51:26 Couple takeaways before we wrap up.
0:51:27 One thing that really stood out was this idea
0:51:29 that momentum breeds momentum.
0:51:31 The more people subscribe to it,
0:51:32 the more of a thing it becomes.
0:51:34 It becomes kind of this self-perpetuating cycle.
0:51:36 The more advertisers you book,
0:51:38 the more people see that people are booking ads.
0:51:41 And it really starts to get that flywheel spinning.
0:51:41 And the other thing,
0:51:44 if you’re gonna do this for your hometown,
0:51:45 you’re gonna have to live it and breathe it.
0:51:49 You’re gonna have to really be the curator of that information,
0:51:51 but good things can really happen as a result.
0:51:54 So again, Ryan, I appreciate you stopping by,
0:51:55 sharing your insights.
0:51:57 Big thanks to our sponsors
0:51:59 for helping make this content free for everyone.
0:52:02 You can hit upsidehustlenation.com/deals
0:52:05 for all the latest offers from our sponsors in one place.
0:52:08 Thanks for supporting the advertisers that support the show.
0:52:09 That’s it for me.
0:52:11 Thank you so much for tuning in.
0:52:12 If you’re finding value in the show,
0:52:14 the greatest compliment is to share it with a friend.
0:52:16 So fire off that text message.
0:52:18 Hey, we should totally start this for our town.
0:52:20 Until next time, let’s go out there
0:52:21 and make something happen,
0:52:22 and I’ll catch you in the next edition
0:52:24 of The Side Hustle Show.
0:52:25 Hustle on.
0:52:35 [BLANK_AUDIO]

0:00:00 This is scaling up a local service side hustle to full-time multi six figures in the pet waste removal niche
0:00:07 What’s up? What’s up, Nick? Oh Loper here
0:00:09 Welcome to the side hustle show part of the entrepreneur podcast network because you’re nine to five
0:00:14 They make you a living but your five tonight makes you alive come for this one
0:00:17 We first heard from today’s guests in early 2020
0:00:20 She was earning around a thousand bucks a week from her part-time Cooper scooper business and since then has grown it
0:00:27 I’m now serving almost 200 weekly residential customers at an average ticket price of $99 a month
0:00:34 From a pooping stooping calm Erica Crouppen welcome back to the side hustle show. Thanks for having me back again
0:00:41 I’m super excited you bet
0:00:43 I love building on these series and encourage everybody to check out the first appearances of Erica on the show
0:00:48 We’ll link those up, of course
0:00:49 Let’s stick around in this one you learn what’s working today from a marketing standpoint
0:00:53 How Erica raised prices and started landing bigger clients and how she’s removed herself from the fulfillment side of things the backyard physical labor
0:01:00 Poop and scoop and side of things to really step into that
0:01:03 CEO role now your listener only bonus for this week is my local business marketing
0:01:08 Checklist some simple ideas that you can implement to get more customers for your service
0:01:13 You can download that for free at the show notes for this episode
0:01:16 Just follow the link in the episode description
0:01:19 That’s the easiest way and it’ll get you right over there
0:01:21 Now I want to share a really really cool moment that was cool for me
0:01:25 So we’re visiting friends in in Michigan for Thanksgiving like long-standing friends giving tradition
0:01:30 We’re driving along in Detroit suburbs and I see this bright pink
0:01:34 Crouppen’s poop and scoop and sign yard sign in somebody’s yard
0:01:37 And I’m like, whoa, whoa, you know my wife is right in shotgun like hey, she was on the podcast
0:01:41 That’s so and she’s like to look at around like she had no idea what I’m talking about
0:01:44 What what looking for someone like actually standing there like no no no that yard sign that bright pink yard sign
0:01:49 And so that was a really cool moment to see your marketing in the wild and knowing that you were local there
0:01:55 You know, it sent you a message right away. Yes, you know, you know exactly where it was and so that was really cool
0:01:59 I did I was really stoked when you reached out to me. I remember telling my husband
0:02:03 I was like see see this is why it’s so important to put these yard signs out
0:02:07 have it bright pink and just be visible and I explained to him the story and
0:02:10 Sidewall’s a nation actually has a special place in my heart because I listened to your podcast when I was working my nine to five
0:02:19 Hoping that I was just going to be able to make it out of that job when I did I reached out to you
0:02:24 Because I wanted to be on your podcast because you were huge
0:02:27 Well, I appreciate that I appreciate you tuning in and and really I mean take an action
0:02:31 You were the first pet waste removal episode that we ever did. So I was like, well, this is unique
0:02:36 Yeah, I want to learn more about this because I think the marketing tactics and the logistics like all that stuff can be applied across any number of
0:02:43 Different niches. I know since that time you’ve gone full-time quit the job at the hospital to run this thing and I wanted to ask if there was a
0:02:50 Moment or a revenue target or something that made you comfortable like taking the leap and saying, okay
0:02:56 This is what I’m gonna do. This can pay the bills. I needed to replace my hospital income
0:03:01 I needed to make sure I was able to max out my retirement and
0:03:05 Get my retirement on my own my Roth IRA and get health insurance for me and my husband
0:03:10 And once I was able to secure that that’s when I was like, all right
0:03:14 I’m gonna put in my two months and I walked in that day and looked at my boss. I was like, we need to talk
0:03:20 She’s like, please tell me no
0:03:21 You’re not quitting right now. Oh, no, not right now, but in two months. I will be okay, and it was scary
0:03:28 It was very scary
0:03:30 But I was excited for the future seems like it has continued to grow since then adding a
0:03:35 roster of recurring customers one of the
0:03:39 Common themes on the show. Hey, you want recurring revenue got to solve a recurring problem
0:03:42 This definitely checks that box right as long as that dog is in that house
0:03:46 They’re gonna have this problem
0:03:47 And so I imagine the customer base tends to be pretty sticky and if you start to canvas the neighborhood with these yard signs
0:03:54 People learn the brand and the reputation and they know who to call when they have this issue
0:03:59 But I remember I think we’re talking about maybe 15 bucks a week 15 to 18 bucks a week early on and it sounds like pricing has
0:04:08 Grown or pricing has increased a little bit since then talk to me about that
0:04:12 Process or you just play the inflation card. Hey look costs are up everywhere. You know, we got to do it, too
0:04:17 Sorry for the inconvenience. What happens there? So when I talked to you back in what was it?
0:04:21 2020 I think I was only charging $55 a month which boiled down to like 1375 a week and
0:04:28 That was just enough to pay me and I had my little cobalt with my magnets
0:04:34 But quickly learned that I needed to raise my prices
0:04:37 So gradually I started to raise and how I did that was when I was getting new customers
0:04:43 They would get the new rates because I was still kind of scared to raise my old customers like my original 12
0:04:49 Okay, but as I started collecting data as I started researching
0:04:53 Vehicles new branding. I quickly realized that I needed to up my prices and it was scary
0:05:00 It really was but I’ve raised my prices several times now
0:05:04 Like you said, I’m at like $99 a month about that’s the average ticket price for the customer
0:05:11 The last time I did the rate increase. I just sent out a letter and just said hey, I got to raise my prices
0:05:17 This is what it is. This is what’s going on. This is what’s to be expected and this is how it’s going to roll out
0:05:23 So I’m very like detailed with my letters and if they have any questions or concerns
0:05:28 I have the conversation with them and just explain that I
0:05:31 Needed to raise my prices for x y and z and if they wanted to cancel service
0:05:35 I completely understood and some did some did but because I was able to bring on
0:05:40 Thousands more a month it balanced out. It was okay. Okay. Yeah, you get somebody used to that service
0:05:47 I mean people talk about like Netflix’s pricing power. It’s like, okay, we got millions of people paying us whatever it is 13 14 bucks like
0:05:55 What happens if we just raise it a dollar like is that enough of a pain point to make people cancel like?
0:05:59 Probably not. It’s probably a pretty sticky service. So it makes a lot of sense there
0:06:03 I had the experience recently of my podcast editing service and Fraser
0:06:08 I’ll get a kick out of this because he’s listening to it as he’s editing the episode. They said hey, Nick
0:06:12 You’ve been a customer since 2016. We love you. We appreciate your business
0:06:15 But our new clients are paying this so you’re getting a great deal. We’re not going to set your price that high
0:06:21 Initially, we’re going to kind of graduate you there over the course of 17 months or something
0:06:26 They did it like really really slowly, which I thought was fascinating because it’s kind of like the frog in the boiling water
0:06:31 Where if they jacked up the rate, you know one off rip off that Band-Aid it might have had me shopping for alternatives
0:06:37 But it’s like, oh, okay, three months and it’s gonna be this another three months
0:06:41 It’s gonna be this like okay. I could tolerate that pain point
0:06:43 That was a unique way to go about and do especially if you you talked about your original
0:06:48 12 customers the people who’ve been with you for the very beginning. Hey, we want to reward that loyalty in a way
0:06:53 But still deal with the reality of like look our costs have gone up
0:06:56 Like if we want to have any margin to hire other people and expand and yeah, we’re gonna have to do this
0:07:01 Yeah, I had this one customer Larry. I was so nervous to raise his rates. He stayed at
0:07:08 $55 a month
0:07:11 For almost five years and then finally I just said, you know what I got to raise him
0:07:17 And I raised him he was either 10 or 20 bucks a month. I can’t remember. Yeah, I know baby steps
0:07:22 Yeah, and he was like, okay
0:07:24 So worried for five years
0:07:29 That’s the residential side you mentioned going after some
0:07:33 Commercial business to like is this municipal parks? Like what do you mean commercial or what does this look like?
0:07:38 Commercial is that’s where some big money is so when we’re saying commercial
0:07:44 We’re servicing HOA communities homeowners associations where they have
0:07:48 Community areas where the dogs go or dog waste stations those green stations that you see at dog parks with the poop bags
0:07:56 Yeah, the rest reciprocals
0:07:58 So we service those the first account I landed was a 17 station HOA in an affluent community
0:08:06 And I was able to land that for
0:08:09 $25 a month that’s huge and most of the time it’s like the owners who are picking that stuff out and they put it in the
0:08:15 Little green thing that’s attached to the bag dispenser. So you’re just kind of emptying the bags. We empty them
0:08:21 We sanitize and clean the stations and then we will refill the bags and the reason why it’s considered
0:08:28 Commercial is because we’re getting paid from the homeowners association itself. Yeah
0:08:35 Okay, did you find there was a previous service like the landscapers like who are you displacing there?
0:08:41 Or did they just have like a volunteer from the board? I could go out and do this every month
0:08:44 They had a maintenance company that would do it
0:08:47 But here’s the thing is that’s not priority to them. It’s the last thing of their mind
0:08:52 So there would be times where they wouldn’t service for weeks at a time and these stations are overflowing
0:08:57 And when you were living in a community where the base house, let’s say you’re broke to get into this community
0:09:04 It’s a million dollar house. Do you think you want to see dog poop bags laying all over the ground? Absolutely not
0:09:10 Yeah, and so I positioned myself in a way to where the treasurer actually reached out
0:09:16 They’ve seen our reviews online
0:09:17 He called me personally and he explained the situation. He said how quickly can you get out here?
0:09:23 I said you approve the quote
0:09:24 I can be out there within 48 hours and I was out very quickly
0:09:28 Handled everything that he needed to handle and I’ve been with him or he’s been with me for the past three years
0:09:35 It’s been a okay great your full experience. Yeah, so that was inbound based on all the reputation
0:09:41 That she built any of these neighboring communities are like shoot we if we do this once well
0:09:47 What else is out here in terms of the commercial work world? That’s what my plan is
0:09:50 I’ve recently moved out to the area that I’m servicing. That’s where I’m at right now
0:09:55 I’m in a new office. This was like a strategic move on my end because a lot of times with these higher-end communities
0:10:03 They want to work with people that have the same
0:10:05 Zip code as them and it was really hard to kind of get in with where my office was at the time
0:10:11 So I moved to this location
0:10:13 I have a whole spreadsheet and I’m going to just be going to these are calling the HOA’s
0:10:19 Be mailing and networking and really trying to get in to explode like the next let’s say 24 months
0:10:25 I just want to explode the commercial side of the pooper scooper business. Yeah, we just did a landscaping
0:10:30 episode and what he said was kind of similar and interesting is like the weekly maintenance business for mowing lawns was very
0:10:39 Predictable is great baseline to have yeah, but somewhat lower margins because it’s recurring revenue
0:10:44 It’s somewhat on autopilot but then going after like these bigger in his case wasn’t necessarily commercial work still like residential
0:10:50 Irrigation installs and landscaping projects
0:10:53 But it was like those were the opportunities to have like bigger bids more margin. Like have you found the same thing here?
0:10:59 My friend told me when she say residential pays the bills
0:11:03 Commercial puts money in the bank account and when I said that to me. I said
0:11:09 This is so true. So about six or seven months ago. I said, all right, we’re doing a rebrand. We’re gonna get more professional
0:11:16 We’re gonna get new uniforms everything and so the past six months
0:11:20 I’ve been like kicking butt on changing or upgrading pretty much everything within the business
0:11:26 Yeah, we have some examples of those upgrades. Oh our vehicles
0:11:31 I completely redid the entire all the vehicles are all hot pink with a brand new logo. I got a new logo
0:11:37 I actually invested instead of making one on Canva because when I got started, I didn’t have
0:11:42 Money, I didn’t have the knowledge. I didn’t know what I was doing. I was just doing it
0:11:46 And so I reached out to somebody. That’s a professional
0:11:50 Brand creator that they create a brand identity and I spent a good six weeks with him
0:11:55 Coming up with a new logo and then once I did that I went to a wrap shop and I said, all right
0:12:01 Let’s wrap all of these vehicles and you can see my vehicles
0:12:05 So far away. There’s there’s no mistaking it. Yeah, I don’t know if this is gonna be on video like on YouTube
0:12:11 But for those of you watching it, it’s this bright pink color. Yeah, I’m glad that you’re on brand today
0:12:15 It’s the same pink that is in your logo
0:12:17 It’s the same pink is the sign that I saw it’s a pink is the truck wraps. How many vehicles are in this fleet now?
0:12:23 This sounds pretty serious. Well, I have three I have the two cars and the one truck
0:12:27 The one other car got involved in a hit-and-run accident and was totaled out
0:12:32 So right now we’re down to the three which is fine because I’m down a staff member
0:12:37 So I’m actually back in the field again scooping
0:12:39 That’s why I was a little bit late because I was out scooping and then I had to like refresh myself and I
0:12:45 underestimated the
0:12:47 Traffic on the way from my house to the new office. And that’s all good. Is that typical?
0:12:52 I know you’re trying to get yourself out of the field and
0:12:55 Spend less time doing that but I understand like hey things come up cars get wrecked
0:13:01 People call in sick and they got to go and fill in to keep the customers happy
0:13:04 Yes back and forth back and forth. I’ll get out for a little bit back in I’m not the best at hiring yet
0:13:10 That’s still a skill set that I need to work on
0:13:12 So the next set of goal list is really level up with hiring and know who to pick and
0:13:18 I’ve been learning how to not let people stay in my company
0:13:23 Longer than they should because last year I had an employee that nearly I nearly allowed him to
0:13:29 Destroy my company. That was bad. Are you able to share what was happening or like pitfalls to avoid for people listening?
0:13:38 Yeah, it was just a lot of complaints a lot of miss piles
0:13:41 That’s a quality issue and I kind of just let it go. I would have the little conversations
0:13:46 But it didn’t really take action. I didn’t implement like a disciplinary action
0:13:51 This person would also either not be able to come in or would have to leave mid-shift and I would be like, okay
0:13:57 I understand
0:13:59 Go out there scoop not really have the conversation about how this is not meeting standards
0:14:04 And then this person left a gate open and two dogs escaped. Oh, no
0:14:11 Yeah, and so that was I guess essentially my last straw
0:14:14 So I did let that person go and because of that I implemented closed gate photos now at the end of all of our shifts
0:14:22 Yeah, yeah, yeah, okay, and I now have
0:14:27 Expectations written out and during the hiring process. I let them know up front what to expect
0:14:33 So if I’m coming to them to have a conversation about quality issues
0:14:37 They’re not blindsided and I have it written out in black and white step-by-step. What’s gonna happen
0:14:43 And it gives me a sense of confidence as a business owner to have those conversations
0:14:47 Right trying to set the coaching program that I’m in is called it like the definition of done like setting your
0:14:54 Team members up for success by like saying well
0:14:56 Here’s what done looks like and having that quality control checklist having the gate closed photos like hey
0:15:02 You’re not done until I get his clothes, right? I think that’s super helpful to lay out what the expectations are
0:15:08 Is it a hard job to hire for like people like oh gross I don’t want to touch that or is it seem like hey?
0:15:13 Flexible drive around town like I don’t know like what’s been your experience trying to recruit people
0:15:19 It’s been hard because people it’s still fairly unheard of industry
0:15:24 Unless you know you know and you don’t see a job posting often for like a dog waste removal business on indeed
0:15:31 so the people that apply are really
0:15:33 Thrown off about it, but because I do pay pretty high
0:15:38 They’re like okay. Well, this is intriguing. Why is it paying so much?
0:15:42 And so that’s the reason why my rates are so much higher because I want to have a quality competent person
0:15:47 They need to be able to have a driver’s license a clean record pass a background check. Yes
0:15:53 I background check every person I send to a home. I’m sending an employee to somebody’s home that has children a lot of times
0:15:59 Yeah, totally. Yeah, given them access to the backyard like totally yeah access to my customer information through the CRM
0:16:07 And so they have to be able to meet all of those criterias and then just showing up that was so difficult
0:16:14 I went through hundreds of applications and interviews and
0:16:18 Maybe four or five actually showed up. It was wild. Yeah, it’s you know, it’s set up where
0:16:25 It’s gonna be a flat weekly salary or like we’re gonna pay you
0:16:31 20 bucks a yard like I’m just
0:16:34 Kind of think of the the structure if I’m trying to recreate this in a power washing niche or something else that might be
0:16:41 Similar local service. I’ve tried the what is it pay per performance? So like the PPP?
0:16:46 I’ve tried that that just people wanted to rush through because they wanted to get done as fast as possible
0:16:53 So I quit doing that now. I just decided I’m going to pay hourly
0:16:58 And I have a criteria like they need to be able to hit three houses an hour on average throughout the week
0:17:03 Some yards are larger. Some yards are smaller. I started 1850 an hour
0:17:09 I mean, that’s pretty decent in our area and that’s starting pay. Got it
0:17:12 Yeah, I see that could be an attractive job with somewhat flexible schedule
0:17:16 Like is there enough houses to keep somebody busy full-time or is like oh, there’s gonna be a 10 hour a week or 20 hour a week
0:17:23 type of rule no because my full-time scooper has a 125 houses per week and
0:17:28 then
0:17:29 No, right and then a part-time has half of that and then I have one girl that works on Wednesdays
0:17:36 And she does 25 houses on that day. She’s like super part-time. That’s still a ton. That’s a ton of
0:17:42 Houses driving poop. That’s
0:17:44 It’s a lot to keep track of more with Erica in just a moment
0:17:49 Including the tech platform she uses to keep all the customers and jobs organized and how she’s collected over
0:17:54 370 Google reviews towering above the competition right after this
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0:20:08 What’s the tech platform if there is such a thing to just manage the route and the dispatching and like all of a sudden at that
0:20:15 Scale like the logistics side of it starts to get it’s not just oh, you know, there’s the three houses around the corner
0:20:21 I know I got a hit like I got to have a system for this in the beginning
0:20:24 I just had a Google doc and so I was able to kind of keep things in order
0:20:27 But once I hit 50 customers things were starting to get a little messy
0:20:31 And so I was trying to find different platforms and trying to keep things organized and I actually had missed a couple customers
0:20:37 Which that’s unacceptable
0:20:39 So I started doing my research on CRMs and I came across Jabber CRM
0:20:44 And I’m actually now an ambassador for them because I love the platform
0:20:49 It’s an all-in-one you have your routing you have your invoicing you have your customer communication
0:20:54 You have reports invoicing all of it. I live in Jabber
0:20:58 I even put my personal tasks in Jabber on my calendar because I’m in it so much
0:21:03 Okay, this is the go-to and I’ve heard this from other people too
0:21:07 This is like almost the go-to for a local service business like this manage the team manage the routes manage the customers
0:21:14 Kind of all in one it’s cool because you can use it from your laptop and then also they have a mobile app
0:21:19 So the staff can see their schedule. They get to clock in they get to clock out and there’s two-way text messaging with Jabber
0:21:27 So we always send our homeowners a text message when we’re on the way
0:21:30 So they can put the dog away and then we send a text when we’re finished that way
0:21:35 I’m able to see all the communication that goes through
0:21:38 Because it’s very transparent
0:21:41 So if a complaint comes in via text message the whole team gets it and you’re getting put on blast
0:21:46 But that’s just how we roll. It’s like you got to take accountability for it. Okay, and it doesn’t seem like
0:21:51 It happens very often or if it does happen
0:21:54 You’re on top of it because I’m looking at the Google reviews now
0:21:57 372 Google reviews. I think the next closest competitor has seven or something
0:22:03 So it’s like clearly doesn’t happen by accident. We have done a ton of effort into
0:22:07 Building up that online reputation. What does that look like if for
0:22:12 Requesting those reviews from customers in the beginning. It was manual just a text message with a link now
0:22:19 I’ve used two different platforms that connects to my CRM. That’s an automated system
0:22:25 The first one was a nice job, which once I close a job out
0:22:30 Nice job asks the customer for a review
0:22:33 Since then I have moved to review Harvest and the reason why I like review Harvest is because not only
0:22:41 Does it ask the customer for a review?
0:22:44 But it also will post on my social media with the review with like a picture with my branding and my colors
0:22:51 And so it’s also giving me social media content
0:22:54 Right on time I’m getting the review
0:22:57 So there’s a lot of automation that I’ve implemented in my business to help scale because I’m only one person
0:23:02 I can only do so much. It’s good to utilize the technology that’s available to you
0:23:08 Okay, yeah review Harvest is new to me. We’ll link that one up as a resource
0:23:13 Is it the same for like a recurring weekly customer like after a week three or something like it?
0:23:19 You like our service, you know, would you mind leaving a review?
0:23:21 It’s hard to say why close it out that job if it’s gonna continue happening. I am strategic when a customer comes on
0:23:27 I set two jobs up for them. I set up the first month of service
0:23:32 That way they’re in there for like two or three weeks
0:23:35 They kind of get our vibe and then we close that one out and then they will get their request
0:23:40 For the review and then their next job
0:23:44 It just continuous and they won’t get another review request from us until that job closes out, but I think I
0:23:52 Think the software knows that the person has reviewed us so it won’t ask them again
0:23:57 Okay, if they’ve left the review and it’s been prioritizing Google or you say hey
0:24:03 If you are a Yelp user if you like to review on Facebook like you target any of these other platforms or say what we’re going
0:24:09 All in on the high visibility Google reviews with the nice job. I believe whatever they have open on their phone
0:24:16 I don’t actually I don’t know the route
0:24:19 I think it’s whatever is open on their phone
0:24:21 But I know with review harvest the first thing that they go for is that Google and then they post on to
0:24:27 Facebook onto the page onto the stories and then also they update your Google profile like the pictures in your Google profile
0:24:37 Okay, and then they also ask the customer to leave a recommendation in next door and the next door app
0:24:44 Because that is going to help with your local market
0:24:48 sure sure oh just the posts that you see like hey if anybody’s in the market for a
0:24:52 Bathroom contractor like take a look at the work that we just had done if you need any help give these guys a call type of thing
0:24:58 Just it’s not necessarily
0:25:00 Tied to your profile page or something. It’s kind of like goes into the next door feed. Am I understand that correctly?
0:25:05 Yeah, they’ll just post a recommendation that doesn’t happen all the time
0:25:08 But they try to get that because it always carries more weight and has more value if a
0:25:14 Recommendation is made versus the business owner in their posting. So I do get creative with my stuff
0:25:20 So in the next door app, this is something that happened recently
0:25:24 I got all my wraps done and the wrapping company is local. So in the next door app, I gave
0:25:31 The wrap company a huge shout out for doing this amazing work while posting a picture of my vehicle that says who we are
0:25:38 What we do is how to get in touch with us
0:25:41 Yeah, perfect 10 leads boom
0:25:44 Okay, yeah, that’s awesome. That’s really creative. Okay, so next door utilizing these different community groups next door is huge
0:25:52 The local Facebook groups the reason I brought that up is like looking for bathroom contractors
0:25:56 and so it’s like scrolling through these old archive posts and they can have a lifespan of years if somebody got their work done
0:26:02 2022 or something who did you use right like as long as they’re still in business sir?
0:26:05 We’ll give them a call right so that stuff can have a long shelf life. What else is going on on the marketing front
0:26:11 I love just I think the example from the very first episode, you know where we initially posted this picture of the dog pooping
0:26:18 And it got a lot of attention and had 80 inquiries over messenger and throughout the history of this
0:26:23 You’ve been very creative and intentional on the marketing side. What else do you see working today? Yeah, I didn’t have a lot of money
0:26:29 So I had to get had to get creative and still sure this day
0:26:33 I don’t like spending money on ads over the spring like early spring
0:26:37 Facebook was getting me for like six seven eight twelve hundred dollars because I was trying to pump money into ads
0:26:45 And it’s just for me. I don’t think I had them set up right so it didn’t work
0:26:49 so what I’ve been doing is just getting more intentional with
0:26:54 The strategy and trying to get away from the fluff, right?
0:26:58 Just like who we are what we do how to get in touch with us because people
0:27:02 They don’t want to read long posts anymore at least from my experience when it comes to like the dog waste removal stuff and
0:27:09 putting those keywords in there and just consistently
0:27:12 creating like some sort of content between stagnant posts and
0:27:19 Videos with a trending sound over it from a camera phone. No professional photos camera phone
0:27:24 Videos and pictures perform so much better than professional stock photos
0:27:30 You’re posting these as organic media or as ads
0:27:35 No, organic media if one pops one does pretty well
0:27:39 I will put some ad dollars behind it
0:27:41 but I spend so much money on the vehicles that I have
0:27:47 Maxed out my ad budget probably for two years
0:27:50 Yeah, well people see these driving around town. They’re definitely going to notice so it makes sense
0:27:56 Do you have an example of the social media post that did go medium viral in your little area or in this niche and
0:28:04 What it said what that resulted in I had a video that hit
0:28:08 1.2 million views
0:28:11 and that
0:28:15 Was me taking a trash bag and putting it over top of my pooper scooper bucket
0:28:20 It’s just so simple
0:28:23 So simple and people loved it and I got a lot of traction with that. They’re like, what is this for what’s going on?
0:28:29 So I was able to show people
0:28:32 That wanted to scoop the dog poop themselves
0:28:34 How to do it a professional way and then the people that were like, oh, well, I just want you to scoop the poop for me
0:28:41 I’m like, all right, perfect
0:28:43 Let us do it. All right a certain percentage probably a small percentage of those were like within your service radius
0:28:48 And they ended up reaching out. Yeah, okay
0:28:51 Interesting like I would never have because it’s so broad because it’s the nationwide worldwide. I wouldn’t have guessed that
0:28:58 that type of
0:29:00 Content would really do anything for a local service business, but you’re proving me wrong
0:29:03 Well, so it just depends like they’ll ask like where we’re from and when you post something
0:29:08 It will say like if you can add a location to it and I always try to add the location when I post something
0:29:15 I really really try so then it shows it to my local market
0:29:20 Got it. Got it. All right. So trying to play the viral social media game trying to collect reviews
0:29:24 Facebook ads, maybe not super effective putting some money into the truck wraps the you know, right in your face local marketing
0:29:31 Anything else that’s driving leads these days. I’ve always wanted to just create awareness that this business
0:29:37 Is a thing and it’s available
0:29:39 And so I just think creating that awareness getting involved within the community
0:29:44 Talking to people creating that brand like I don’t even like the color pink really, but now I’m just all pinked out
0:29:51 And in that way it’s like brand association
0:29:55 And then over time all of that just kind of compounds like you see in the sign and you were like, oh, that’s kruppin’s poopin scooping
0:30:02 And just being intentional this stuff doesn’t happen overnight
0:30:05 I remember your story about walking into the vet office
0:30:08 With a box of donuts trying to play the game. Well, who are my target customers?
0:30:12 Already doing business with if they got a dog they’re probably visiting the vet
0:30:15 Hey, mind if I drop off these donuts and these business cards like here
0:30:19 I like to have them I have a little stack on your counter and people can see it there or
0:30:23 Put up a banner at the local dog park again bright pink gets your attention
0:30:28 like where are my target customers already doing business anything on the
0:30:33 Word of mouth referral marketing like trying to lean into that trying to turn one customer into two like hey
0:30:38 If you got a friend that has a dog, you know, I’ll give you 50 bucks off to send them my way or something
0:30:42 With jobber they have a referral link that gets sent out. I think with every invoice
0:30:47 So this is a little bit automated and if somebody refers out
0:30:51 Then I give that person a free week
0:30:55 But if they sign up like they get a one-time clean or a spring clean and they sign up for regular monthly service
0:31:02 I will give a like either a half a month off or an entire month free to the referral person
0:31:07 It varies just depending on the type of account that gets picked up. Yeah, it’s kind of this game of
0:31:14 relatively fixed relatively low cost of customer acquisition in this case for hopefully
0:31:20 A multi-year lifetime value of this customer
0:31:23 I get the sense that people tend to stick around for a while once they get used to the service
0:31:28 And you have the data on that like what’s a customer worth typically lifetime value wise
0:31:32 So fun fact, I didn’t really understand lifetime value. I didn’t even know what lifetime value meant until
0:31:39 Like six months ago. I posted on youtube that I was struggling with certain things
0:31:45 And this guy william that started watching my channel in 2020
0:31:50 He started a pooper scooper business and quickly has scaled it to seven figures
0:31:55 A seven figure pooper scooper business, right? So he’s million. Wow in in one town
0:32:00 They have three locations now. Okay. Dang. That’s a lot of poop
0:32:04 It really is it truly is and he asked me that he goes. Do you know your churn rate?
0:32:10 Do you know your lifetime value? Do you know your acquisition cost? I said, what are you talking about?
0:32:16 I have
0:32:17 no idea and and
0:32:20 Through talking to some other business owners. He’s realized that a lot of people don’t truly understand their numbers
0:32:26 So william has recently
0:32:28 Created a course for pooper scoopers. It’s called the poop scoop millionaire
0:32:32 And in there he has documents that go over how to figure out your lifetime value
0:32:38 How to figure out your churn rate how to figure out your acquisition cost all of that
0:32:42 I’m super excited because I will now be a coach within this community
0:32:47 About talking about social media and how to scale a business from zero to 250k
0:32:52 Okay, okay
0:32:54 Yeah, and so I’m in the process of learning all of that stuff too because my brain kind of like
0:32:59 Glitches when he starts talking about churn rate, but I know I know I can figure this out
0:33:04 It just takes time and data tracking. Right. Yeah
0:33:08 So you can say well over the course of the five years of this business we’ve had 200 customers on average. They stick around for
0:33:14 18 months so
0:33:16 That is
0:33:17 Whatever 99 times 18, you know, it’s $1,800 lifetime value and if it cost us less than $1,800
0:33:24 Well, you know, we got labor and everything else other costs associated with that
0:33:27 But if we can acquire that customer for given somebody a free month
0:33:30 We have a hundred dollar cost of acquisition like that seems very profitable and potentially very scalable
0:33:36 More with erica in just a moment including why she’s built the crappiest channel on youtube
0:33:41 And what’s surprised her the most over the last five years right after this
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0:35:03 If you travel a lot for work or for a vacation, you might be familiar with that feeling you get
0:35:07 knowing you’re leaving your space unused for long periods of time
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0:36:04 You did mention these guys. They were operating in three different cities
0:36:07 I think when we last spoke you had a satellite location on the other side of the state like in miskegon
0:36:13 Is that still with it? Was that under a franchise or like a subcontractor? Like how did you have that set up?
0:36:18 We didn’t I didn’t know what I was doing. She was operating
0:36:21 She was making money. She was a satellite location, but she was still operating under me
0:36:26 But my business was getting so busy and she was doing such a good job on her own
0:36:31 I just presented her with some information. I said, I think you could be your own business owner
0:36:36 You’ve proven that you’re able to scoop these customers on your own. You’re able to communicate with them
0:36:41 I will show you how to get your LLC. I’ll show you how to get jobber if you need any help
0:36:46 And I think I sold it to her for like a dollar
0:36:48 I don’t know. It was like a dollar and she’s doing great. She’s flourishing
0:36:53 Yeah, it’s just like I don’t want to deal with this headache anymore. Like it’s your baby now
0:36:56 Well, because I was like too divided because I was getting questions
0:37:00 From up there and then I’m running my business and then at the time I was like, let’s start a youtube channel. That would be great
0:37:07 Not realizing how difficult content creation is
0:37:11 Well, talk to me about that side of the business because you have kruppin spoopin scoopin 3 000 subscribers on youtube
0:37:17 It says welcome to the crappiest channel on youtube. Love it. You got the scoop podcast
0:37:22 And so starting to create content about the business owner side of things
0:37:25 Hey, what it’s like behind the scenes running this day to day and there’s a ton of content up there
0:37:29 But like you mentioned, it takes time away from doing the actual thing
0:37:34 Like what’s I love to geek out on the content side and what that has done for you
0:37:38 So the content was kind of like a creative outlet for me because I’ve always had two or three jobs
0:37:44 And so leaving the hospital I was like, okay, I’m doing this but I need something else to like relieve stress
0:37:51 And creating the content
0:37:53 Is fun, but at a certain point I needed to start making some money
0:37:58 So I needed to start being more strategic
0:38:00 But it’s hard when you’re trying to create content and you’re trying to run the business and what I didn’t anticipate
0:38:07 With being an entrepreneur. I didn’t anticipate the personal growth journey that I was going to go through
0:38:13 and
0:38:15 I’ve heard people say that like some years
0:38:18 You are growing personally some years. You’re growing professionally some years
0:38:22 You’re just trying to maintain and I’ve went through all of that in the past five years
0:38:26 So I wouldn’t say that I had a lot of growth last year in the business
0:38:30 But personally like I went completely sober. I quit drinking March 28th of last year
0:38:36 Because mentally my mental health was I just was not doing okay
0:38:41 And I just felt like I wasn’t being a good wife
0:38:44 I was the largest that I had been in quite some time
0:38:48 I
0:38:49 Was an emotional roller coaster and I knew the foundation of like what was going on with me was
0:38:54 Fastly falling apart and I was like, well, what am I going to do? So I said, okay
0:38:59 Drinking is a crutch for me. I get stressed. I drink. I’m happy. I drink. So I’m just going to quit
0:39:05 I’m going to quit I’m going to quit drinking and so I quit for one day
0:39:07 Then I quit for two days
0:39:09 And I noticed a lot of my content was very emotional and very low at that time
0:39:14 But that really connected with people because people struggling especially since covid
0:39:19 I was just kind of throwing stuff at the wall and trying to figure out what to do
0:39:23 But now like with a clear mind. I’m like, okay
0:39:26 You can’t spend a bunch of time
0:39:29 Thinking about and creating a bunch of content. You have to get more strategic with it like
0:39:33 Today is going to be your recording day. You’re just going to record on this day
0:39:37 Your other days is going to be for networking and marketing your business
0:39:41 You can’t worry about creating content on those days because you need to grow your business
0:39:45 So what I did was is I’ve actually I was running two instagrams one for the scoop podcast and one for kruppen’s poop and scooping
0:39:53 I can’t do it anymore
0:39:56 I can’t do it. So I’m combining them. It’s just you’re going to get everything on that one instagram page now
0:40:02 The social media side the pooper scooper side the mental health personal growth side
0:40:07 So it’ll just be like a well-rounded instagram channel. Okay. So I like this call to
0:40:13 You try and theme your days, which is a takeaway from Mike Vardy from productivityist on the show years ago
0:40:20 Like so you’re not switching gears so many times like okay today is going to be the recording day today is
0:40:25 business growth and outbound calling day and maybe day three is social media day
0:40:30 Trying to minimize the mental switching costs. I think that’s really smart
0:40:34 but I’m still curious about like is it worthwhile to
0:40:37 invest the time
0:40:39 To show people the behind the scenes of the business
0:40:42 And become a content creator versus just doing the thing like I’m going to keep my head down
0:40:47 I’m going to just keep on doing obviously led to this connection with the poop scoop millionaire
0:40:51 And like some positive things came from it and like now this 1.2 million view viral video
0:40:56 Like I don’t know I’m torn because like on the one hand super cool
0:41:00 I want to be the transparent work in public type of thing show people the behind the scenes and it unlocks new revenue streams
0:41:07 like sponsorships coaching
0:41:09 Brand deals the job or ambassadorship like stuff like that
0:41:11 But on the other hand it like takes away from the core thing that’s paying the bills in the near term
0:41:16 That’s kind of where I’ve struggled because I’m like, what do I really want?
0:41:20 there’s a lot of different
0:41:22 parts of me the
0:41:24 part of me that enjoys the connection with people from the youtube channel and the content I’ve put out
0:41:30 To see other people that have seen my videos and they’ve been able to grow a six-figure business
0:41:35 Like personally that fills me like that makes me so happy and then I’m able to see their journey
0:41:40 Then the other aspect of it
0:41:43 Of getting content creation deals to where I’m able to make money by making videos and talking
0:41:49 That’s cool to be able to not leave my house and create videos and talk on my podcast and make money
0:41:56 Amazing. Yeah, best gig in the world, right? Yeah, and poop scooping. It’s tough. You’re out in the sun
0:42:01 We’ve had two dog bites this year. I had a file at workman’s comp claim
0:42:05 So it’s nice to be able to create money on different avenues
0:42:08 And then as for the business, it’s like I don’t know how big or how massive I want to grow grow my business
0:42:15 I don’t know if I want to have like a multi-million dollar. What is the word? Coglomerate company?
0:42:22 I’m not going nationwide. Yeah, and I like to hop on camera and talk. I don’t know. It’s like a self-fulfilling thing to
0:42:29 See the content I’m creating and also
0:42:32 Document the journey because I get to look back at those videos from 2020 and I literally get to see my entire journey
0:42:40 Yeah, that’s sometimes a little awkward to go back and listen to those archive
0:42:44 episodes from 10 years ago
0:42:45 But I’m with you and it was something that she said about like really knowing yourself
0:42:50 But like look, I needed something else to relieve stress. It wasn’t
0:42:53 Maybe I mispositioned it as like a trade-off. I could invest my time here or I can miss my time here
0:42:58 Where it’s like I could do this and I can do this because I want to because it’s fulfilling
0:43:03 Because for all these other check the box reasons rather than just driving top-rank growth
0:43:07 But it kind of leads to the next thing of or the next question of like
0:43:11 Where do you want to take this thing? Like will it be a seven figure
0:43:16 Multi-state multi-location multi-city type of operation or is say like look, we’re good. This is fantastic lifestyle business
0:43:23 We’ve got it almost on autopilot now. It runs itself. It’s predictable. Like where do you want to go?
0:43:29 Oh, it’s really hard for me to make that decision because I hate putting myself into a box
0:43:34 I feel like if I would be like this is what’s going to happen. This is like the end goal that I’m like limiting myself
0:43:40 I just wherever god wants to take me and I get to use my talents
0:43:45 That’s really where it’s at if I’m meant to have a big business
0:43:47 I’m going to have the skill set and it’s going to happen
0:43:50 And I’m just going to keep working towards it or if I’m going to have a big social media and talk for a living
0:43:55 I’m cool with that too. All I know
0:43:57 Is I want to be able to
0:44:00 Enjoy what I’m doing and make enough money that when my parents no longer
0:44:06 Can like
0:44:08 Work and they’re older they don’t have to like struggle and that’s something that’s really important to me because
0:44:14 I’ve seen elderly people where they can’t provide for themselves and they struggle and I just don’t want that for my parents
0:44:20 So and I don’t want my mom to live with me. I want to be able to
0:44:23 Buy her or pay for a place for her to live
0:44:26 Yeah, that’s from me because I can’t with that. Well a strong motivation and
0:44:33 One thing that I appreciate about all of our calls together is the transparency and this is a struggle like every step of the way
0:44:40 There’s a new
0:44:42 Hurdle, there’s a new obstacle. There’s something else that goes wrong
0:44:46 And you just kind of have to fight your way through it. You got to figure it out
0:44:50 That’s your job as the business owner and you don’t necessarily know
0:44:54 How to get through to the other side, but you got to figure it out and I just
0:44:57 Appreciate you sharing all that instead of coming in and be like I’m god’s gift to pooper scooper
0:45:03 And I have all the answers and I knew it from the get-go. It’s like, no, this was there’s some hard fought wins here
0:45:09 But since we last connected I think late 2020
0:45:12 What’s surprised you the most since then the growth of the community has surprised me
0:45:18 Just how many pooper scoopers there are now
0:45:21 A lot of thanks to me and me blabbing all over the internet about it
0:45:24 So I’ve essentially created my own competition, but I don’t look at it that way
0:45:30 I look at as the more people that are doing this the more people that are
0:45:35 Following good practices in business. It’s uplifting the community and the more brand awareness and community awareness that there is
0:45:43 The more acceptable this industry is going to be
0:45:46 I wouldn’t say that I’m shocked. I wanted this to happen
0:45:50 But it shocks me at how fast it’s grown over the past four years
0:45:54 And I can’t wait to see what it’s like in another five to ten years
0:45:59 When you started
0:46:01 I remember you say, well, how did I come up with pricing? Well, I looked up what the other people in the area
0:46:05 Were charging for this. So there was some
0:46:07 Entrenched competition, but nowhere near what it is today
0:46:11 You kind of just attribute that to like the pie just getting bigger like more and more people are hiring out this service
0:46:17 And so there’s greater demand
0:46:18 Whereas before like this is a thing you could hire help for like maybe it wasn’t on people’s radars as much as it is
0:46:24 Today, is that what you think is going on? Yeah
0:46:26 people knowing that’s the main thing is like
0:46:29 What do they say if you build it they will come
0:46:32 It’s also make people aware that the service is available and they can make the decision
0:46:36 They’ve seen a post and on facebook about pooper scooper. They might have like
0:46:40 Snubbed their nose at it
0:46:42 But during that spring clean when they’re cleaning their back hurts and they’re like this is stupid
0:46:47 Throw down the pooper scooper and they’re like, I know I see somebody that cleans up dog poop on facebook
0:46:51 And then they hire it out and then they tell their friends they tell their people
0:46:56 The neighbors see you park and then drive away and they’re like, what’s that about and they snap a picture
0:47:01 So over time it’s just kind of spreads and you get more exposure
0:47:05 Yeah, there’s like this nitrification of
0:47:08 home services where
0:47:11 Number one more and more people want to just not deal with it
0:47:15 Like as a homeowner like I don’t want to bother with the
0:47:17 Gutter cleaning or the window cleaning or whatever to stuff gets dirty over and over again
0:47:21 Great if you can be in the business of cleaning it up
0:47:23 maybe you can do it every quarter or every six months set it up on a recurring basis and
0:47:28 More and more people getting into it now, but like relatively low competition from the startup space or the
0:47:34 competing service provider space where if you come in with a little bit of
0:47:38 Marketing savvy like Erica has you get some room to carve out a little bit of market share there
0:47:43 And and you may not even need to conquest
0:47:45 The business from another service provider just because like you mentioned
0:47:49 It sounds like the the biggest competition you’re displacing is people doing it themselves
0:47:52 Is getting sick of this chore like I don’t want to deal with this anymore. There’s got to be a smarter way
0:47:56 I gotta go hire somebody who’s a professional. Well, yeah and positioning yourself well too because I mean in the home service industry
0:48:02 You get a lot of contractors or business owners that just don’t do good business. They don’t communicate. They don’t show up
0:48:08 They’re messy and so if there is a lot of competition in your area, this is what I did
0:48:13 I went through and I read all of the reviews of all my competition or people that were in the area
0:48:19 Collected the information on what the issues were. It was lack of communication didn’t show up doesn’t answer the phone
0:48:26 And so I made sure when I was starting my business and continuing my business
0:48:31 A plus plus communication, right? Well, we’re going to show up
0:48:35 But we’re going to send you a text message to let you know that we’re there
0:48:37 So that was like the main focus is just try to be better
0:48:41 Try to be better than the people in your area and that’s how I’m able to charge more too. That’s why I have a higher price point
0:48:47 Yeah, you can add on some layer of
0:48:50 professionalism in terms of branding and marketing and what historically has been a really fragmented industry
0:48:57 You can bring that together under your brand and kind of command a premium for that take a little margin on the top the
0:49:04 And you can do it offline. You can do it online the online example that comes to mind is belay solutions that started
0:49:11 Like an executive assistant service
0:49:13 Which executive assistant’s been around since the dawn of the internet or virtual assistants been around for 30 plus years at this point
0:49:19 What they did is hire from that same talent pool like this work from home professional
0:49:23 And say well, okay now you’re going to go through our vetting hiring branding process
0:49:28 And charge a premium rate as a result some that makes a lot of sense. Appreciate you sharing that
0:49:34 So you mentioned you’re doing coaching for pet waste millionaire. You’ve got the kruppen poop and scoop in
0:49:38 YouTube channel plus the scoop podcast. What else is on the horizon for this year?
0:49:43 Oh gosh, it’s a lot really just building out this office this new place that i’m in get the new podcast studio set up
0:49:50 I want to start highlighting
0:49:52 Female business owners because there is a content gap for female business owners that work outside of the home
0:49:58 So I definitely want to dive into that a little bit
0:50:01 And I also wanted to get involved in the community and with other business owners and bring them in studio
0:50:07 Because being a business owner and going through the growth that I have the past four years
0:50:13 My friend group. I don’t have one personally here anymore because we’re just on a different page
0:50:18 And so being an entrepreneur it’s lonely. And so my
0:50:21 Goal is to meet some new like-minded people
0:50:25 That I can hang out with and talk business with and it’s not where it’s like, oh, she’s talking about business again
0:50:31 What is she doing?
0:50:33 So that’s kind of what the goal is and then really
0:50:35 Lean into the coaching because I’ve been wanting to coach for quite some time
0:50:41 And so I think that’s going to be a huge part of what
0:50:44 2024 is going to be about and that makes sense and I appreciate you sharing that it is lonely
0:50:48 You gotta have to have some people you could talk shop with otherwise just go crazy rallying around in your mind with that stuff
0:50:54 Well, very good. We’ll link up all of Erica’s resources again pooping scooping.com is the main
0:51:00 Website you can check out what she’s up to over there. Let’s wrap this thing up with your number one tip for side hustle nation
0:51:07 2024 edition and then we’ll take a trip down memory lane and see what you said before
0:51:11 If there is something that you can’t figure out if there’s something you’re stuck on
0:51:16 Try to find somebody that knows how to do it
0:51:20 Just speed up your process because I spent a lot of time
0:51:24 Just researching stuff that I shouldn’t have if I would have just paid somebody 50 bucks 100 bucks
0:51:31 They could have gave me the answer so quick and I would have saved myself a lot of stress
0:51:36 So that would be my number one tip is just reach out to people
0:51:40 And get some help if you need it. Yeah, this is the unlock or this is the shortcut in a lot of ways
0:51:45 there’s
0:51:46 Something to be said early on and 100 percent. This was me. I could figure this out, right? Like
0:51:50 I know the answer is out there. It’s on youtube. It’s on, you know a million other websites
0:51:55 like I could brute force my way through this but as the business has matured it’s like
0:51:59 Yeah, I probably could figure this out
0:52:01 But somebody else already knows how to do this and I could probably just hire them to do it and they’d be done
0:52:05 In a week versus me just procrastinating on it and wasting a bunch of time
0:52:09 So if there’s something that you’re stuck on find somebody who knows how to do it
0:52:12 This is the number one tip for 2024 in late 2019 early 2020 for that first episode
0:52:18 it was keep your business debt free like minding the
0:52:21 Dollars and cents and the income and the outcome like that makes a lot of sense a mentor of mine early on said
0:52:27 Hey, you know if you mind the nickels and dimes the dollars take care of themselves
0:52:30 Something stuck with me over the years later on in 2020. We did a little where are they now catch up with Erica and the
0:52:37 advice was really powerful at that time the number one tip was sometimes you have to slow down to speed back up
0:52:43 And that’s something that I’ve definitely stuck with me because it’s true
0:52:48 You’re kind of sometimes too busy chopping down the trees to sharpen the saw to use that metaphor
0:52:52 So sometimes you got to slow down to speed back up a couple notes takeaways before we wrap up here
0:52:58 We talked about the reputation. We talked about the branding
0:53:01 Now if you can be a consistent and professional presence in how you show up online and offline
0:53:07 You know good things start to happen word of mouth starts to spread you kind of build the community awareness there
0:53:12 Just at the end talked about like look, this is lonely
0:53:15 There’s a personal growth journey that you’re on as well as a business growth journey
0:53:19 So try to find your people and then finally on the content creation side or the business side
0:53:23 But like leaning into what you like to do is like if you wake up every day and kind of dread
0:53:28 Doing the work like that’s going to show up and like you’re not going to show up as the best version of yourself
0:53:33 So it’s like even if there’s not an immediate ROI on creating the content or doing the social media stuff
0:53:39 Like if that’s what you like to do, you got to do it. You got to make it fun
0:53:42 So those were some of the notes takeaways that I wrote down during this column
0:53:46 The previous episodes with Erica number 368. That was the original
0:53:50 We talked about how you can make 50 bucks an hour starting this business in your local town
0:53:54 We did the catch-up call in 407 to see how that had grown in just nine months
0:53:59 And then we got today’s episode for the four year later version of what’s going on
0:54:03 We did another episode with a pooper scooper entrepreneur kody smith in the denver area
0:54:10 Where he really gave this deep dive in local seo
0:54:13 That’s episode 555
0:54:16 If you missed that one and you have any type of local service business all of the
0:54:20 Tips and tricks to get reviews and get stuff ranking with different images and the wording of the post
0:54:26 So like and you know how to rank in different areas
0:54:29 Really in depth on that super specific topic so 555
0:54:33 Of course, we’ll link up all of those in the show notes
0:54:35 And again, your listener only bonus for this week is my local business marketing checklist
0:54:41 We talked about a bunch of different ideas in this episode
0:54:44 And you’re just some simple checklist simple ideas that you can use to get that
0:54:47 Local business off the ground. Hopefully reduce that cost of acquisition and compare that again with your customer lifetime value
0:54:55 That’s the local marketing checklist. You can download that for free at the show notes
0:54:59 Just follow the show notes link in the episode description. It’ll get you right over there big. Thanks to erica sharing her insight once again
0:55:05 Thanks to our sponsors for helping make this content free for everyone
0:55:09 As always you can get up side hustle nation dot com slash deals for all the latest offers from our sponsors in one place
0:55:15 Thanks for supporting the advertisers that support the show and that is it for me
0:55:19 Thank you so much for tuning in until next time
0:55:22 Let’s go out there and make something happen and I’ll catch you in the next edition of the side hustle show hustle on
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