Author: The Side Hustle Show

  • 623: Active vs. Passive Income

    AI transcript
    0:00:03 Active versus passive income.
    0:00:05 With our limited time,
    0:00:06 what should side hustlers focus on?
    0:00:08 What’s up, what’s up, Nick Loper here?
    0:00:09 Welcome to The Side Hustler Show
    0:00:12 because your nine to five may make you a living,
    0:00:14 but your five to nine makes you alive.
    0:00:15 And that’s the question on the table.
    0:00:17 If you’re already earning active income,
    0:00:19 trading time for money at your day job,
    0:00:21 doesn’t it make sense to pursue passive income
    0:00:23 in your side hustle hours?
    0:00:25 Well, maybe, but maybe not.
    0:00:26 And what is truly passive?
    0:00:28 After all, is there even such a thing?
    0:00:30 And what’s the true cost of earning it?
    0:00:32 Excited to dive into this topic
    0:00:35 and to help me out is Mr. Passive himself.
    0:00:36 Mike Hoffman is back on the show.
    0:00:37 Mike, welcome back.
    0:00:38 – Thanks, Nick.
    0:00:39 Fire it up to be here.
    0:00:40 – You bet me.
    0:00:41 As well, you might remember Mike
    0:00:44 from the Vending Machine episode we did earlier this year.
    0:00:48 That’s number 599, I wanna say 599 in your archives.
    0:00:52 If you missed it, vendingpreneurs.com is his home base.
    0:00:54 We’re going three rounds with Mike today.
    0:00:57 First up is that active versus passive income debate
    0:00:59 to help you decide where it’s really best
    0:01:01 to allocate your time, energy, attention.
    0:01:04 Next up, we’re doing Donate a Business Idea.
    0:01:05 Stick around for that and wrapping it up
    0:01:08 with the triple threat, a marketing tactic
    0:01:10 that’s working right now for Mike or his students,
    0:01:12 a favorite new tool or resource,
    0:01:15 and his favorite book for the last 12 months.
    0:01:17 So active versus passive income.
    0:01:21 Love this topic and I wanna frame it this way.
    0:01:24 We know inherently that passive income is important.
    0:01:27 I mean, Warren Buffett, the Oracle of Omaha
    0:01:28 puts it in no uncertain terms.
    0:01:29 He says, look, if you don’t find a way
    0:01:31 to make money in your sleep,
    0:01:32 you’re gonna work until you die.
    0:01:34 And like, well, I don’t necessarily want that.
    0:01:36 So let’s go back to the first part.
    0:01:38 I gotta figure out a way to make money in my sleep.
    0:01:39 So we know it’s important,
    0:01:41 but we don’t get a lot of education
    0:01:44 on how to actually set this up for ourselves.
    0:01:46 And in fact, a lot of our education,
    0:01:49 maybe most of our education is geared toward active income.
    0:01:50 Go to school, get a good job.
    0:01:52 That’s like the end game.
    0:01:54 That’s the end goal for a lot of people,
    0:01:55 a lot of the educational system.
    0:01:57 Get a good job that pays well.
    0:02:00 Go find yourself a way to earn active income.
    0:02:02 And I think that’s a perfectly normal way to start.
    0:02:04 It’s probably where most people start.
    0:02:07 And then along the way, invest as much as you can
    0:02:10 so that someday, maybe decades later in a lot of cases,
    0:02:13 you could begin drawing down those investments,
    0:02:14 kind of the traditional path.
    0:02:16 But it doesn’t have to be that way.
    0:02:17 So Mike, kick us off here.
    0:02:19 How do you view this debate
    0:02:22 from the perspective of somebody who is working full-time?
    0:02:24 They’ve got the goal to make extra money.
    0:02:26 That’s why they’re listening to the side hustle show
    0:02:27 to start something on the side,
    0:02:29 but they’ve got limited hours to work with.
    0:02:32 Where does this conversation even start
    0:02:33 on active versus passive?
    0:02:36 – The first step is, where’s your passion?
    0:02:38 And what’s kind of that fire in you?
    0:02:40 ‘Cause the reality of the situation
    0:02:43 is people’s day job is not their passion.
    0:02:46 So whether that’s someone that’s passionate about,
    0:02:49 I don’t know, being a mom and like being around their kids
    0:02:53 and maybe they find a business idea that excites them
    0:02:57 and flares their kind of entrepreneur journey on the side.
    0:02:59 And they want to go down a path with that
    0:03:00 because they’ve had kids,
    0:03:02 but their day job just pays the bills.
    0:03:04 So I think for me, it’s just aligning
    0:03:05 with where your passions are.
    0:03:09 And also understanding that a day job is just that.
    0:03:11 It’s the stability you can use
    0:03:15 to kind of explore this passion that you have.
    0:03:16 – Now I’m going to flip it around.
    0:03:18 Like one of your first passive income projects
    0:03:19 is a rental property.
    0:03:21 Can anybody say, oh, I’m passionate about owning
    0:03:24 a rental property or I’m passionate about selling snacks
    0:03:25 and drinks in an automated way?
    0:03:27 Like I’m passionate about the income that it provides
    0:03:28 and the wealth that it could build,
    0:03:30 but I don’t know if I’m passionate
    0:03:31 about the sausage being made.
    0:03:33 – 100% Nick, and I was having this conversation
    0:03:35 with one of our vendingpreneurs yesterday
    0:03:37 ’cause it’s like, you don’t go to school
    0:03:40 to learn about vending or you don’t go to trade school
    0:03:43 to learn about the margins of a candy bar
    0:03:46 that you resell or anything like that.
    0:03:50 But the passion for me is to spend more time with my kids.
    0:03:51 Like I was singing about it this morning
    0:03:55 where there was a big kind of airlines had a freeze,
    0:03:57 IT shut down, what have you.
    0:04:00 And think about all these corporate employees
    0:04:02 that are on their road for their job
    0:04:05 and they’re just scrambling to find a way to get home today
    0:04:07 to be with their kids this weekend.
    0:04:08 And the reality is a lot of them
    0:04:10 aren’t going to be able to get home till tomorrow.
    0:04:12 And like, that doesn’t have to be you.
    0:04:13 – Okay, that’s fair.
    0:04:16 So if you have built up some other means of income
    0:04:19 then you don’t have to do the job
    0:04:20 that you dislike forever and ever.
    0:04:22 – Correct, yeah.
    0:04:24 It’s kind of like the Justin Walshmine site where it’s like
    0:04:27 you shouldn’t just leave your nine to five
    0:04:29 and then all of a sudden your business idea blows up
    0:04:31 and in six months you have to go back into it.
    0:04:34 You should build this passion and vet it
    0:04:36 while you still have that active piece.
    0:04:37 – That’s fair.
    0:04:41 The challenge is having been a participant
    0:04:44 and an observer in the entrepreneurial world
    0:04:46 for the past 15, 20 years.
    0:04:51 More hours have been spent in vain chasing passive income
    0:04:54 than chasing the elusive passive income,
    0:04:56 the latest and greatest strategy or tactic
    0:04:59 to make money on the internet or whatever it may be,
    0:05:01 where it’s like you would have been so much better off
    0:05:03 had you just leveled up your skills,
    0:05:04 got a better paying job,
    0:05:07 or even gone the freelancing or consulting route
    0:05:09 and you’ve gotten paid for your time
    0:05:12 versus toiling away because sometimes this works out.
    0:05:15 And this is like the case of the site isolation blog,
    0:05:17 for example, like the first years of the site
    0:05:19 like so far below minimum wage,
    0:05:21 trying to figure out the internet
    0:05:23 and trying to make that into a thing
    0:05:25 and will it into existence,
    0:05:27 where it’s like in the near term,
    0:05:29 would have been so much better off financially,
    0:05:31 just going and getting paid by somebody.
    0:05:33 Like go solve a problem, go get paid for it.
    0:05:34 – Absolutely, you’re spot on.
    0:05:36 And that’s like that valley of death.
    0:05:38 You talk about it when people are trying
    0:05:42 to like build a business or do work with the government.
    0:05:44 It takes eight years of red tape to find,
    0:05:46 like you look at Palantir right now.
    0:05:49 Palantir is like booming from a business,
    0:05:50 but they went through this valley of death
    0:05:52 just to break into the government.
    0:05:53 Same thing with businesses.
    0:05:58 Like our vending route right now is flourishing,
    0:05:59 but those first five years,
    0:06:03 it was like chop wood, carry water, chop wood, carry water.
    0:06:07 It was boring and it was scary all at the same time.
    0:06:10 – Yeah, the way that I kind of like to frame it
    0:06:13 is thinking of your income as a pie chart, right?
    0:06:15 And for most people, especially straight out of school,
    0:06:18 like I’m trading time for money,
    0:06:20 it’s 100% active income.
    0:06:22 And then to get to that Warren Buffett finish line
    0:06:24 of not working until you die,
    0:06:27 eventually it’s going to have to be fully time leveraged
    0:06:28 or fully passive income.
    0:06:30 And maybe you still want to do some consulting projects
    0:06:32 or maybe you want to work part-time or something.
    0:06:34 But like trying to build,
    0:06:35 first starting with a little sliver,
    0:06:38 but then building that passive income piece of the pie
    0:06:41 such that you don’t need the active part anymore
    0:06:42 or it becomes optional.
    0:06:45 – Yeah, I love that pie chart, that’s a great analogy
    0:06:48 and you’re just trying to move those percentages
    0:06:50 as far over as possible.
    0:06:52 – All right, so you like real estate, you like vending,
    0:06:55 what other passive or time leveraged models
    0:06:58 might be beginner friendly or would be on your radar?
    0:07:00 – I think even just taking a step
    0:07:03 and really kind of understanding the percentages
    0:07:05 of your income and not getting into like,
    0:07:08 do you make enough to be able to invest in a rental
    0:07:11 or invest in a vending machine or route or whatever?
    0:07:14 It’s more like understanding, okay,
    0:07:17 how much of your take home pay is spent on rent?
    0:07:21 How much of it is going into a index fund
    0:07:24 or something that is just at the simplest level?
    0:07:27 You talked about earlier when you’re in your 20s,
    0:07:31 you can get so far ahead if you just are disciplined enough
    0:07:35 to take a percentage of your income no matter what that is
    0:07:38 and start building that compounding effect
    0:07:42 in whatever asset class you want to start in.
    0:07:43 – You have a rule of thumb of like,
    0:07:46 well, I’m going to put 10% into
    0:07:49 some speculative passive projects
    0:07:52 or like I never really thought about it that way.
    0:07:56 – For my wife and I, we’ll do 10 to 15%
    0:07:58 into more of our conservative,
    0:08:01 like out of sight, out of mind index funds every month.
    0:08:04 And then yeah, we have another probably 10%
    0:08:06 that’s high risk.
    0:08:10 Our financial advisor might not think it’s the safest play,
    0:08:12 but it’s something I’m bullish about.
    0:08:14 I mean, even in the vending space right now,
    0:08:17 there’s so many smart machines at now
    0:08:19 are adding like digital ad screens to them.
    0:08:22 And there’s like these speculative opportunities
    0:08:26 for revenue that have never existed in this niche before.
    0:08:29 So that’s kind of where I’m going right now.
    0:08:31 And then all these like unattended,
    0:08:34 the Amazon just walk out technology and stuff
    0:08:38 just really trying to kind of think of five years ahead.
    0:08:40 And who knows, it might fall on this face.
    0:08:41 – Okay, so I’m thinking of first,
    0:08:45 so it starts off from a place of financial stability.
    0:08:46 Like that’s got to be step one.
    0:08:48 Like I got to have enough income to cover my expenses
    0:08:51 and then having an understanding of where
    0:08:53 that income is allocated.
    0:08:55 How are my dollars going to work for me?
    0:08:58 And then taking a percentage of that, of the surplus,
    0:09:00 hopefully, and saying, okay, in your case,
    0:09:02 I’m investing that back into the business
    0:09:04 and more speculative projects and saying,
    0:09:06 okay, this is like the play money.
    0:09:08 Like everything else is,
    0:09:09 maybe it’s not super, super comfortable,
    0:09:11 but it’s like, I’m not going backwards.
    0:09:14 And having a little bit of financial breathing room
    0:09:16 as a baseline.
    0:09:18 And so maybe this whole passive income discussion
    0:09:20 is one of privilege to be even able to tackle that.
    0:09:22 Like, no, I’m just trying to make ends meet.
    0:09:23 I’m trying to put food on the table.
    0:09:25 Like I got to go earn some money today
    0:09:28 versus seeing if I can make some investment
    0:09:30 or start some project that may pay back
    0:09:31 in six to 12 months.
    0:09:33 There’s something powerful in what you just said.
    0:09:35 And I think it comes back to like your habits, right?
    0:09:39 Like if you think of a book, I might recommend later,
    0:09:41 but I’m going to spoil it by talking about it now.
    0:09:46 Profit first, the whole concept is you pay your profits
    0:09:48 before you pay off your expenses.
    0:09:51 So right away, when you get income coming in,
    0:09:53 it goes into your profit bucket.
    0:09:54 Well, guess what’s going to happen?
    0:09:57 Naturally, you’re going to really watch
    0:09:59 what your expenses are because now
    0:10:01 that profit first is paid out
    0:10:03 and you’re only left with so much.
    0:10:06 So the same concept when it comes to our personal finances
    0:10:08 and investing in things like passive income,
    0:10:12 when you’re a young kid, I will teach you to be rich.
    0:10:13 Another book always talks about
    0:10:16 immediately the day you get paid,
    0:10:20 you need to direct deposit into your stock portfolio,
    0:10:22 that money, so then your plate money
    0:10:25 and your actual bank account is a lot less
    0:10:27 than you spend too much.
    0:10:30 And it’s like, “Oh crap, I forgot to invest this month.”
    0:10:33 So that whole kind of, just even habits of,
    0:10:34 at the end of the day, it all starts
    0:10:36 with live below your means, right?
    0:10:39 If you’re 20% taken out
    0:10:41 before it even hits your bank account,
    0:10:44 that’s the beauty of like Ross and these 401ks,
    0:10:46 is you’re already pulling that out
    0:10:49 before it hits what you think you can spend with.
    0:10:51 – Yeah, this is super simple,
    0:10:53 but like you never really heard it phrased,
    0:10:53 actually before Brin’s mom,
    0:10:55 before my mother-in-law kind of explained
    0:10:59 that’s how she as a single mom was able to save and invest.
    0:11:02 She’s like, “I would get the direct deposit paycheck
    0:11:05 for pretty much exactly what I knew my expenses
    0:11:05 were gonna be that month.”
    0:11:08 And everything else was out of sight, out of mind,
    0:11:09 in savings and investments.
    0:11:11 It’s like, I just never really, whatever,
    0:11:15 the automated 401k deposit out of the paycheck,
    0:11:16 that was fine, but then everything else
    0:11:17 was just hit the checking account.
    0:11:19 I was like, “All right, this is play money.”
    0:11:22 It’s still kind of inherently new to live below by means,
    0:11:25 but nothing was set up and systemized and automated
    0:11:29 the way that it could have been to maybe accelerate that
    0:11:31 or just make it more of a habit or make it more automatic.
    0:11:33 – Yeah, yeah.
    0:11:35 And then it forces you to think about
    0:11:37 where your big rocks are.
    0:11:39 You got people these days on social media
    0:11:41 that are like, “Oh, I’m gonna start doing this or that
    0:11:43 or I’m gonna work on my offer
    0:11:45 and I need to get my SEO
    0:11:48 and all of these other ancillary things figured out.”
    0:11:51 And it’s like, let’s just start posting content once a day.
    0:11:54 – Yeah, I know Kagan calls it the rule of 100,
    0:11:56 like post a hundred pieces of content
    0:11:58 or come up with a hundred ideas
    0:11:59 and then come back and talk to me
    0:12:01 or Jimmy, MrBeast has the same thing.
    0:12:03 Like, why don’t you post a hundred videos
    0:12:03 and then come talk?
    0:12:06 Either you burn out and don’t do the hundred
    0:12:08 and I don’t have to talk to you
    0:12:10 or you do the hundred and you figured it out along the way
    0:12:11 and I still don’t have to talk to you.
    0:12:14 So I was like, this is great little bit of advice from him.
    0:12:16 The counterpoint that I maybe want to make,
    0:12:20 especially on the passive versus active side
    0:12:22 is we’ve seen some examples
    0:12:24 of where near term cash flow,
    0:12:26 obviously chasing active income,
    0:12:29 service businesses, consulting, freelancing,
    0:12:32 you’re gonna ring the cash register right away.
    0:12:33 And we’ve seen some examples
    0:12:36 of where that can actually transition
    0:12:39 into something more passive or more time leveraged.
    0:12:41 A couple of examples, we have Wes Schaefer
    0:12:44 who was the sales whisperer, I think was his brand
    0:12:46 on the show years ago.
    0:12:49 And he was doing these kind of like sales funnel
    0:12:51 automation build outs and consults.
    0:12:53 Like, hey, we’ll analyze your business.
    0:12:56 And along the way, so he’s getting paid to do that upfront,
    0:12:59 but along the way becomes a certified reseller
    0:13:02 for HubSpot for infusionsoft, now keep.
    0:13:06 And oh, by the way, they pay recurring commissions to hit.
    0:13:07 It’s like, hey, based on your business,
    0:13:10 we found that HubSpot was the best fit for you.
    0:13:12 We’ll sign you up, we’ll get it all set up for you.
    0:13:16 He was able to turn that one time active income project
    0:13:19 into recurring level of passive income for years.
    0:13:21 One of my other favorite examples is Matt Boknock.
    0:13:23 He was like the motorcycle repair guy.
    0:13:25 Hey, don’t take your bike to the dealership.
    0:13:26 Don’t pay dealership rates.
    0:13:27 Come, you’ll bring it to me.
    0:13:29 I know what I’m doing, I’ll fix it in my garage.
    0:13:32 Hours for dollars side hustle after sending the kids to bed.
    0:13:34 But Matt set up the camera in the court of the garage,
    0:13:36 films himself doing the repairs.
    0:13:39 Last we spoke, he had 100,000 YouTube subscribers.
    0:13:42 He was selling these engine rebuild videos
    0:13:43 as a digital products.
    0:13:46 And it didn’t take long, I’m sure it felt long,
    0:13:48 but it didn’t take long from the outside looking in
    0:13:50 where the quote unquote passive side of the business
    0:13:53 far outpaced the turning wrenches side of the business.
    0:13:56 And it’s interesting that some of these like little,
    0:13:59 maybe it’s selling your sawdust type of products,
    0:14:01 but when you start by doing the work
    0:14:04 and building skills and relationships,
    0:14:06 sometimes those passive doors start to open
    0:14:09 or those more time leveraged doors start to open.
    0:14:11 – Yeah, I was reading an article about this last night
    0:14:13 where there’s something to say
    0:14:15 about the middle man and everything.
    0:14:17 Like if you look at Uber and Airbnb,
    0:14:21 what they have in common is they don’t have any cars
    0:14:23 and they don’t have any homes.
    0:14:26 They’re just the middle man of connecting someone
    0:14:30 that’s looking for a home in Washington on their vacation
    0:14:31 and someone that has a home.
    0:14:33 Just like Uber, you look at,
    0:14:34 and like the sales whisper thing,
    0:14:39 he’s just that dot that’s connecting this potential person
    0:14:43 that needs a CRM to hub spot or to whatever that vehicle is.
    0:14:45 And the same thing I keep coming back to
    0:14:46 with our vendingpreneurs,
    0:14:50 ’cause you’re spot on, like you gotta reduce friction.
    0:14:53 For me, like I’m trying to make it as easy as possible
    0:14:55 for people to get product.
    0:14:56 Like they shouldn’t have to go to Costco
    0:14:58 and spend four hours.
    0:15:01 If we can just get it delivered to their door once a week
    0:15:05 at a bulk price that’s just on autopilot
    0:15:07 based on the sales of whatever that,
    0:15:09 there’s just so many levers is like just that,
    0:15:11 I mean, Amazon, it’s just a middle man.
    0:15:15 Anything in life, you’re just trying to be that connector.
    0:15:17 And last time I had that aha moment where it’s like,
    0:15:20 Uber has no cars and Airbnb has no homes, like what?
    0:15:23 – Right, Facebook doesn’t create any of their own content.
    0:15:26 Safe thing with TikTok, they’re just content platforms.
    0:15:27 There’s something to that.
    0:15:30 And this is a common path for side hustlers
    0:15:31 to start freelancing on the side.
    0:15:33 Yes, it’s still active income.
    0:15:35 Maybe they take that full time.
    0:15:37 Maybe they start to hire subcontractors
    0:15:39 where it’s like, okay, now it’s a little bit more
    0:15:41 time leverage is not me laying the bricks
    0:15:43 or doing the day-to-day labor anymore,
    0:15:46 but I put myself in a management layer.
    0:15:48 So different ways to transition from active income
    0:15:52 to passive income in the middle man method is similar.
    0:15:55 It could be, oh, I started a house cleaning business,
    0:15:56 but I didn’t want to do the cleaning.
    0:15:58 So I went out and hired people who already knew
    0:16:00 how to do the cleaning.
    0:16:02 We’ve seen examples of that on the show
    0:16:06 from window washing to graphic design and video editing.
    0:16:08 You can do it offline, you can do it online,
    0:16:11 but the middle man game absolutely is a viable path.
    0:16:13 – Yeah, and then even you talk about that home cleaning,
    0:16:17 like those product companies will fight for you
    0:16:19 to buy their product to use for the cleaning.
    0:16:23 You think of like Airbnb’s and all of the restaurants
    0:16:26 near you, they want your business and they will pay you
    0:16:29 if you promote their restaurants and your check-in folder
    0:16:31 when guests come to your Airbnb.
    0:16:35 – Okay, okay, interesting.
    0:16:35 I never thought about that.
    0:16:38 And now I will definitely pay more attention
    0:16:39 to those little like welcome binders.
    0:16:40 – Yeah!
    0:16:43 I love those houses, like was that a paid placement?
    0:16:45 Yeah, mention our offer code for 10% off your check.
    0:16:47 – Side hustle nation, you get 10% off.
    0:16:48 – Yeah, there you go.
    0:16:49 – That’s a lot of wings.
    0:16:52 – One other consideration here on this active
    0:16:57 versus passive debate is related to your home life situation.
    0:17:03 So for me, it was grateful to be living below my means
    0:17:06 and had my wife who had this steady job.
    0:17:08 And so when there were down years in the business,
    0:17:11 it was okay, we could still live comfortably on one income.
    0:17:15 And that freed up the time and the mental energy
    0:17:19 to focus on these more time leveraged business models
    0:17:20 where even in the near term,
    0:17:23 it wasn’t going to have this great ROI
    0:17:26 or it seemed was chasing this passive income.
    0:17:30 And sometimes it took months or years to materialize,
    0:17:32 but because we’re playing it as a team sport,
    0:17:34 it still worked out.
    0:17:35 And so maybe that’s a conversation to have
    0:17:37 with your spouse or partner to figure out,
    0:17:39 well, what role is everybody going to play here?
    0:17:41 But that was something that worked out
    0:17:42 in our favor in our house.
    0:17:43 – Yeah, no, that’s great.
    0:17:46 And we had the same similar situation last year.
    0:17:49 My wife actually lost her job
    0:17:51 and she was five months pregnant.
    0:17:54 And also our healthcare was with her job
    0:17:56 because I was just an entrepreneur.
    0:17:58 So we took care of your healthcare.
    0:18:00 And so it was like a scramble moment.
    0:18:02 But as long as you’re living below your means
    0:18:04 and you have those different income streams
    0:18:05 for the rainy days,
    0:18:08 like you said, the mind share,
    0:18:10 it was just a simple
    0:18:12 and could have been a very emotional roller coaster,
    0:18:15 but it allowed us to stay neutral in the moment.
    0:18:16 – You ever get to the point of like,
    0:18:18 this passive income stuff sucks.
    0:18:19 It doesn’t work.
    0:18:22 How to go figure out how to make extra money,
    0:18:23 just selling my skills.
    0:18:25 Do you ever have that conversation
    0:18:26 or does there come a point
    0:18:29 where you have people trying to build websites
    0:18:32 or do merch by Amazon or do dropshipping
    0:18:35 or whatever the latest thing is,
    0:18:37 you never quite hit it right.
    0:18:40 And I feel for those people
    0:18:43 ’cause all of these models can work and do work,
    0:18:46 but sometimes there’s a factor of luck involved.
    0:18:48 It sometimes is a factor of timing.
    0:18:49 And other times it’s like, I don’t know,
    0:18:51 this just isn’t the model for you.
    0:18:52 That’s where I struggle with.
    0:18:54 I’m in the passive income camp too,
    0:18:56 but I definitely see the benefits of just like,
    0:18:58 like if you’re trying to make extra money, go make it.
    0:18:58 Go get it done.
    0:19:00 – Yeah, I see both sides for sure.
    0:19:02 I mean, I do do a little bit of consulting
    0:19:04 for our special operations community
    0:19:06 with human performance.
    0:19:07 That’s a lot more active,
    0:19:10 but I think the downside with like consulting
    0:19:13 or time for money is like with consulting,
    0:19:16 what you did for them yesterday doesn’t matter.
    0:19:18 It’s what are you gonna do for me today?
    0:19:19 – Yeah.
    0:19:20 – Like that whole rat race is just,
    0:19:22 to me it’s not sustainable.
    0:19:23 You’re gonna get burnout,
    0:19:27 you’re gonna just play that substitution of time for money.
    0:19:30 And it’s just, you might do it ’cause it’s your passion
    0:19:33 and you believe in the mission of whatever you’re
    0:19:36 an expert in, but it’s a tough business model.
    0:19:37 – Well, if the hourly rate is strong enough,
    0:19:40 it might be compelled to keep going.
    0:19:43 We had a guy who was doing like college admissions essay
    0:19:45 consulting like a super, super niche business.
    0:19:48 It was like 220 something bucks an hour.
    0:19:51 Like, I’m okay with this at a certain price.
    0:19:53 You can kind of just play the traditional route of like,
    0:19:55 yeah, I’m gonna live below my means
    0:19:57 and invest the difference versus like,
    0:19:59 okay, if I’m just kind of squeaking by
    0:20:03 or my current skill set wouldn’t afford a $200 hourly rate,
    0:20:06 okay, now I’ve gotta figure out how to build an income stream
    0:20:08 that maybe is unrelated to that or has some more leverage.
    0:20:09 – Yeah, exactly.
    0:20:11 I could see that side for sure.
    0:20:12 – All right.
    0:20:13 So is there a sweet spot?
    0:20:16 So let’s say I’m eight hours a day is at my day job,
    0:20:18 eight hours a day, hopefully sleeping.
    0:20:19 And I’ve got eight hours left.
    0:20:22 Like, is there a sweet spot of like rule of thumb?
    0:20:26 What time should people allocate to a passive income pursuits?
    0:20:27 – As far as like buckets,
    0:20:28 I mean, I think it’s like anything.
    0:20:31 You just, you gotta be balanced
    0:20:33 or there is gonna lead to some burnout.
    0:20:35 You gotta be balanced on all the things
    0:20:39 if you’re not doing much and you’re sleeping too much
    0:20:42 and you’re just on social media every night.
    0:20:44 Like you’re just gonna get in a rut and feel stuck
    0:20:47 and spiral and watch news all day.
    0:20:50 And then the other side of it is if you’re constantly working
    0:20:52 and you’re just gonna feel like
    0:20:54 you’re never gonna get ahead.
    0:20:56 So I think there’s always gonna be that balance.
    0:20:59 And I also think for me, just like with training,
    0:21:01 it’s periodization.
    0:21:03 And I’m a huge believer in micro dosing
    0:21:06 and doing a little bit every single day
    0:21:07 versus like, oh, we’re gonna work five days
    0:21:09 and have two days off, but Sunday,
    0:21:11 you’re stressed out thinking, you know,
    0:21:12 the Sunday is scary as you’re thinking
    0:21:13 about the week ahead.
    0:21:17 So like, why not spend an hour on Saturday and Sunday?
    0:21:19 If you can, before your kids wake up,
    0:21:22 just do a little bit every day.
    0:21:23 And same thing with Friday.
    0:21:25 Like you shouldn’t have to work past noon
    0:21:27 if just because it’s Friday
    0:21:30 and you’re supposed to work till five is ass backwards.
    0:21:32 – Yeah, this is maybe the key to it.
    0:21:34 Being proactive about it,
    0:21:37 no matter what your starting position is
    0:21:38 and being consistent with it.
    0:21:40 There’s nobody else is gonna do it for you.
    0:21:42 And if you don’t put in the effort consistently
    0:21:46 like that passive income is never gonna come down the road.
    0:21:49 So even if it’s just a half an hour a day, an hour a day,
    0:21:52 like if you can carve out a little bit of time
    0:21:53 for these pursuits,
    0:21:56 your effort starts to compound and accelerate
    0:21:58 and you start to learn more and build your skills.
    0:22:00 But then you start hopefully with that little sliver
    0:22:01 on the pie chart.
    0:22:04 And hopefully it starts to expand and expand
    0:22:06 as you move forward with it.
    0:22:09 And that’s kind of how I thought about
    0:22:10 even when I was working full time.
    0:22:13 Like, okay, so I’m gonna spend my evening and weekends
    0:22:15 like trying to build up the passive income
    0:22:17 so I could scale back the active income.
    0:22:19 We’ve heard from other podcast guests too
    0:22:21 where they, I went from working five days a week
    0:22:23 to four days a week to three days a week.
    0:22:26 Like as it started to grow and grow,
    0:22:27 that was a byproduct of that,
    0:22:30 being proactive about it and being consistent with it.
    0:22:33 So that’s our active versus passive income debate.
    0:22:35 I love this topic.
    0:22:36 We’ll geek out about it all day with anybody.
    0:22:38 So that’s round one.
    0:22:41 Round two is donate a business idea.
    0:22:44 We’ll be right back with that after a word from our sponsors.
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    0:23:54 All right, we’re back with Mike, Mr. Passive,
    0:23:58 and we’ve got Donate a Business Idea for Round Two.
    0:24:00 This is something that you’d start
    0:24:01 if you just had more bandwidth.
    0:24:04 This is something that you think listeners could run with.
    0:24:06 This is something that auto-exists in the world.
    0:24:07 It’s pretty open-ended,
    0:24:09 but I’ll tee it up for you with that.
    0:24:12 – What’s where everything’s going with AI?
    0:24:13 I think there’s something there
    0:24:16 with almost like an AI assistant
    0:24:21 that organizes things for you in a more tailored way.
    0:24:25 And what I mean by that is you think of the AI for Siri,
    0:24:30 where it’s like, okay, a vendingpreneur yesterday asked me,
    0:24:33 hey, do you have an example statement of work
    0:24:36 for a property contract?
    0:24:37 On your phone, you could just be like,
    0:24:40 hey, chat GPT, create a statement of work.
    0:24:43 I’m a vending provider, send to Thomas,
    0:24:45 and off it, and it’s out.
    0:24:50 Or the whole idea of a grocery’s folder,
    0:24:52 and you think of something you need to get
    0:24:55 on your grocery run that’s three days away,
    0:24:57 and you just want to add it to the list.
    0:25:00 Or AI assistant, find the cheapest flights
    0:25:04 for this upcoming trip, or what have you.
    0:25:06 I just think there’s something there
    0:25:09 between the intent of Siri combined
    0:25:11 with a chat GPT or a Gemini
    0:25:16 that will really streamline efficiency into buckets
    0:25:18 that will help you get things done
    0:25:20 the way that you could get them done.
    0:25:25 – Okay, so thinking of an assistant chatbot type of product,
    0:25:27 maybe niched down in the travel niche,
    0:25:29 or the meal planning niche.
    0:25:31 Like we add this to the grocery list,
    0:25:33 or even better, add it to the grocery list
    0:25:37 that on Saturday is going to trigger the Instacart order,
    0:25:40 or something where it’s like, becomes more automated.
    0:25:41 Am I hearing that right?
    0:25:46 – Yeah, and also just kind of taking the Siri concept
    0:25:47 to the next level.
    0:25:49 Like, hey, reach out to Nick
    0:25:52 and schedule this podcast episode on Friday
    0:25:55 with what works with my Google calendar.
    0:25:58 – Okay, there’s gotta be a way,
    0:26:00 and probably there’s some like no code entrepreneurs
    0:26:02 or even smarter people who will be like,
    0:26:03 you do that already exists,
    0:26:05 or I could build that in half a day.
    0:26:06 And so maybe–
    0:26:07 – 100%.
    0:26:08 – Yeah, maybe there’s something to that.
    0:26:11 One that always has been challenging for us
    0:26:12 is the travel side.
    0:26:14 And it’s like, I mean, you gotta churn through
    0:26:17 a lot of different data on flights and times
    0:26:19 and rates and routes to do that.
    0:26:21 But one of the challenges for us,
    0:26:23 like trying to plan annual friends giving is like,
    0:26:25 well, do we go there?
    0:26:26 Did they come here?
    0:26:27 Do we meet somewhere in the middle?
    0:26:28 What’s the best option?
    0:26:29 Well, do they fly out of Detroit?
    0:26:30 Do they fly out of Toronto?
    0:26:32 Like, do we fly out of Vancouver?
    0:26:33 Like, it’s not a Canadian holiday.
    0:26:36 It’s like half off if you just drive for a couple of hours.
    0:26:39 So it’s these weird, different variations
    0:26:41 that are really tedious.
    0:26:43 But it’s like, oh, I mean, maybe there’s a computer element
    0:26:46 that can take some of that time-searching burden
    0:26:46 off our plates.
    0:26:49 – Oh, and take that a step further with like kids.
    0:26:52 Like think about going into summer camps
    0:26:54 and how you always wanna book a summer camp,
    0:26:56 but you’re always too late and it’s already filled up.
    0:26:59 And it’s like, now we’re already mapping out
    0:27:03 camps for the fall or fishing whatever
    0:27:05 on Saturday mornings or soccer on Sunday.
    0:27:10 Like that whole layer of I live in Portland, Oregon,
    0:27:14 find me all kids’ camps this fall
    0:27:16 that are on Saturday mornings
    0:27:19 that are still open for registration.
    0:27:20 – Right, that are still open.
    0:27:21 That’s the key.
    0:27:22 – Yeah.
    0:27:23 – That was literally a business.
    0:27:25 We did like a business idea giveaway show
    0:27:26 probably a year ago.
    0:27:28 And that was literally one that came up.
    0:27:31 It’s like the kid camp summer database.
    0:27:32 Maybe they have affiliate programs.
    0:27:33 Maybe they don’t.
    0:27:35 But like either way, it would be super valuable
    0:27:36 for parents to be like,
    0:27:38 well, when does registration open for this?
    0:27:39 How much does it cost?
    0:27:40 Like what are the times?
    0:27:43 So many of them are like nine to 1230 or something.
    0:27:46 Well, I was really hoping for a little bit more coverage
    0:27:47 than that, but maybe you could filter by that.
    0:27:49 Like, yeah, there’s definitely something
    0:27:52 if you were a data scraper or data aggregator type of person.
    0:27:54 – Well, and then take a step further,
    0:27:55 you look at the events on Google.
    0:27:59 So you can go to what are the fourth to July events
    0:28:00 in Seattle?
    0:28:02 Well, then you tie that in with Gemini,
    0:28:04 their AI kind of bot.
    0:28:08 And it’s like, okay, what are their camps in Seattle
    0:28:13 for kids under four that are open for the fall?
    0:28:16 And then if the camp’s 50 bucks,
    0:28:18 I would gladly pay an extra 10 bucks
    0:28:21 just because I didn’t have to spend an hour on Google
    0:28:25 seeing all these camp timelines are already full.
    0:28:26 – Yeah, yeah, just book it for me.
    0:28:29 That’s like the next stage of what do they call
    0:28:31 a generative AI or something.
    0:28:33 Like not just giving you answers,
    0:28:35 but actually doing the thing, doing the task.
    0:28:39 So it’s a brave new world out there.
    0:28:41 I’m playing around with some more AI stuff every week.
    0:28:45 It’s fascinating what it can do.
    0:28:45 Well, very good.
    0:28:48 We’ll put that down as the donate a business idea,
    0:28:51 some sort of niche AI assistant,
    0:28:53 maybe built with some no-code tools.
    0:28:54 Bubble is a great one.
    0:28:56 People are building their own GPTs.
    0:28:59 One thing that has kind of been on the wish list
    0:29:00 or to-do list.
    0:29:04 You could feed in a decade plus of podcast transcripts
    0:29:08 of blog content and create the side isolation GPT
    0:29:10 just for Q and A or customer support.
    0:29:11 Like how would you answer this question?
    0:29:12 Like, well, it’s probably been answered
    0:29:14 at some point in the archives.
    0:29:17 And so there may be maybe that coming down the future.
    0:29:20 It’s not at the top of the to-do list, but it’s on there.
    0:29:22 – Yeah, I mean, think about how many people you’ve interviewed
    0:29:24 and you’ve basically been asking questions
    0:29:27 to figure out the ideal customer profile.
    0:29:30 Like the questions you asked about,
    0:29:32 “Okay, you want to start with vending
    0:29:34 “and how much capital do you need?”
    0:29:37 Like if I went into your website and I was like,
    0:29:39 “Okay, I’m a 22 year old.
    0:29:41 “I don’t have much capital
    0:29:43 “or I want something that’s tax depreciable
    0:29:45 “because my W2 is too high.”
    0:29:48 And it’ll be like, “Okay, scooter rentals,
    0:29:50 “vending machines and car washes
    0:29:53 “are the top three that fit your persona.”
    0:29:55 And then go reach out to these people.
    0:29:58 Like there’s so much leverage in that content.
    0:30:01 I mean, however many episodes you’ve had.
    0:30:01 – Yeah.
    0:30:04 – You’re basically a passive income.
    0:30:05 I don’t want to say middleman, but record.
    0:30:06 – Library, yeah.
    0:30:07 – Yeah.
    0:30:09 – Dude, that’s really cool.
    0:30:10 Like some sort of personalized.
    0:30:12 We attempt to do this a little bit
    0:30:13 with like the quiz that’s on the homepage.
    0:30:15 Like, “Hey, answer a few questions.”
    0:30:17 And we’ll try and point you in the right direction.
    0:30:20 But if it had a little more context,
    0:30:22 yeah, maybe there’s something like that
    0:30:24 that would be interesting, a little more conversational.
    0:30:25 Like here are some business models
    0:30:27 that ought to be worth a look here.
    0:30:28 So very cool.
    0:30:29 That is round two.
    0:30:31 Round three is the triple threat.
    0:30:33 We’re going to start off with number one here,
    0:30:36 a marketing tactic that is working right now
    0:30:38 for you or your students.
    0:30:40 – A marketing tactic that always works
    0:30:42 is anything that’s going to create urgency.
    0:30:46 So we’re working on a big lead for a REIT
    0:30:48 for our vendingpreneurs.
    0:30:49 And I just throughout this,
    0:30:52 hey, I’m going to be out in your neck of the woods
    0:30:56 on this date and the executive assistant for the CEO.
    0:30:59 I was like, hey, yeah, he’s got 20 minutes at this time.
    0:31:00 And I just literally said,
    0:31:01 I’m going to be out in your neck of the woods
    0:31:04 and I don’t make it out your way very often.
    0:31:06 And so it just created this urgency
    0:31:07 for them to take a meeting.
    0:31:10 So I think anything marketing-wise,
    0:31:11 that’s going to create urgency.
    0:31:13 Like Nick, I know you do a great job
    0:31:16 with the whole kind of urgency of listening to your podcast
    0:31:18 and just that whole side of it.
    0:31:20 So for me, it’s always trying
    0:31:22 to create people to take action.
    0:31:23 – And then you go book that flight
    0:31:25 or were you really going to be out there?
    0:31:26 – No, that’s exactly what I did.
    0:31:27 Then I went and booked that flight.
    0:31:29 I mean, that’s how we broke into the government
    0:31:31 was we would reach out to these general officers
    0:31:32 at the Pentagon and say like,
    0:31:35 hey, I’m going to be out in your neck of the woods
    0:31:37 this week or this week.
    0:31:38 When can you take a meeting,
    0:31:40 send it to a four-star general,
    0:31:43 he’d respond and be like Wednesday the 25th at five.
    0:31:44 And it’s like, okay,
    0:31:46 we better book a flight for that week
    0:31:47 ’cause we just locked in a meeting.
    0:31:49 And now we have that anchor meeting.
    0:31:50 That’s really interesting.
    0:31:53 We’ve kind of seen the same thing like in years ago,
    0:31:56 hosting side hustle nation meetups.
    0:31:59 If there’s no outside force, we could do it anytime, right?
    0:32:00 There’s no urgency.
    0:32:01 Another friend is coming into town.
    0:32:02 Oh, perfect.
    0:32:03 Let’s hold the beat up while you’re here.
    0:32:04 We’ll hang out.
    0:32:05 We’ll invite the other members of the community.
    0:32:07 And so there’s something to that.
    0:32:09 And then to reverse that and say,
    0:32:11 I’m going to be, I’m going to be at town.
    0:32:13 I guess only works if you’re willing to jump on that plane
    0:32:14 and make it happen.
    0:32:16 – Yeah, just the whole whatever that,
    0:32:17 it doesn’t even have to be a travel thing.
    0:32:19 It could be like a, you know, a vending lead.
    0:32:20 I’m trying to close over here.
    0:32:22 And it’s just like, hey,
    0:32:25 I’m coming to meet with someone next to you
    0:32:27 or you around before my meeting.
    0:32:29 Whatever that urgency is.
    0:32:31 – Yeah, I’m using this with online course sales,
    0:32:33 like some sort of bonus that goes away,
    0:32:35 some sort of limited time discount.
    0:32:37 Used to do it in house painting.
    0:32:39 Like, hey, I’ve got an opening in the schedule in two weeks.
    0:32:41 I’d love for that spot to be yours.
    0:32:43 10% off if you sign on the dotted line.
    0:32:46 Some reason for people to take action
    0:32:47 where they otherwise wouldn’t.
    0:32:49 You’re like, well, nothing bad is going to happen
    0:32:51 if I punt this off another week or another two weeks.
    0:32:52 So some sort of urgency.
    0:32:53 I like that one.
    0:32:56 That is the marketing tactic that’s working right now,
    0:32:59 creating some sort of urgency for whatever thing it is
    0:33:00 that you’re selling.
    0:33:05 Number two here is to recommend a new or new to you tool
    0:33:06 that you’re living right now.
    0:33:11 – What I’ve been using probably recently is more just kind of,
    0:33:12 there’s multiple tools out there,
    0:33:15 but just like tracking your financial worth,
    0:33:17 whether that’s like, I think in power,
    0:33:18 there’s a couple of tools out there,
    0:33:22 but nowadays just being able to track your net worth
    0:33:24 that aligns with your bank accounts for spending,
    0:33:28 it aligns with you and your worth of paying down your mortgage,
    0:33:30 like all those kinds of things that when we talk about
    0:33:32 earlier, living below your means,
    0:33:35 you actually can see why with something showing you
    0:33:36 a light at the end of the tunnel.
    0:33:37 – Yeah, very good.
    0:33:40 It’s really similar to somebody else mentioned Monarch,
    0:33:41 couple months on the show,
    0:33:42 like really similar tool,
    0:33:45 like kind of a personal finance dashboard.
    0:33:47 You can bring in all your income,
    0:33:48 all your expenses, all your assets,
    0:33:49 all your different accounts,
    0:33:52 like all kind of in this one customizable dashboard.
    0:33:55 They were actually a sponsor on the show earlier this year.
    0:33:56 And this is really cool.
    0:33:59 Like I can log in, see the stuff that’s important to me
    0:34:02 and been the beneficiary of the last nine,
    0:34:04 12 months of like pretty serious bull market.
    0:34:07 So like every time you log in, the number seems to go up.
    0:34:08 You’re like, well, that’s, that’s rewarding.
    0:34:11 I probably can’t get used to that going on in perpetuity,
    0:34:12 but it is a cool tool.
    0:34:15 And just to kind of get that snapshot view
    0:34:18 of inflows, outflows,
    0:34:20 and then the net worth picture is what I’m hearing.
    0:34:21 – Absolutely, yeah, that’s been cool.
    0:34:22 How about you?
    0:34:23 – I knew to me too.
    0:34:24 The one I’m playing around with right now
    0:34:26 is 11 Labs for voiceover
    0:34:31 and trying to create a clone of my own voice
    0:34:33 to produce more YouTube videos,
    0:34:37 to ultimately compliment the huge archive
    0:34:39 of written content on the site,
    0:34:40 where it’s like, oh, I would love to have a video
    0:34:41 to compliment this,
    0:34:46 but I’m 100% the bottleneck in scripting and recording.
    0:34:49 And that’s not worth bothering the editor over
    0:34:51 for a 10 minute little clip.
    0:34:52 And so he was like, okay,
    0:34:56 can we streamline this process with a voiceover artist
    0:34:58 that never screws up, that never screws up the sentence,
    0:35:00 that never has to do a retake,
    0:35:03 but I haven’t got any results from that yet.
    0:35:05 The couple that I’ve tested previously
    0:35:07 didn’t sound quite right
    0:35:09 where they would mispronounce words
    0:35:13 or they would say things with all weird cadence
    0:35:14 or without any cadence.
    0:35:15 It sounds like super robotic.
    0:35:18 So these samples on 11 Labs are really promising.
    0:35:19 So we’ll see what happens there.
    0:35:20 – I love it.
    0:35:21 I won’t even know if it’s you
    0:35:24 or if it’s an actual, yeah, this will be interesting.
    0:35:25 – That’s the end goal.
    0:35:28 Like to make something that sounds legit,
    0:35:30 like that sounds like somebody could have spoken it.
    0:35:31 – Yeah, I’m trying to make it passive.
    0:35:32 I love it.
    0:35:34 – Yeah, how do we, how do we be more passive?
    0:35:36 I will say the YouTube style,
    0:35:37 I can make like 500 bucks a month,
    0:35:39 like from my YouTube channel.
    0:35:41 It is like the most favorite income that I get
    0:35:44 ’cause it feels like totally free money from the internet.
    0:35:46 Sometimes from videos we made years ago
    0:35:47 that still rack up views,
    0:35:50 it’s still get, you know, planting little money seeds
    0:35:52 is kind of how I consider it.
    0:35:54 And whether it’s a blog post,
    0:35:55 whether it’s a YouTube video,
    0:35:58 whether it’s a podcast from six, seven years ago,
    0:35:59 it’s like a little digital asset
    0:36:01 going out into the world to do your bidding.
    0:36:03 And if you’re kind of in this,
    0:36:04 well, yeah, sure, I’m living comfortably.
    0:36:06 I’m game to chase some of this passive income
    0:36:07 that we’ve been talking about.
    0:36:09 Go plant some of those money seeds.
    0:36:10 Maybe it’s a self-published book.
    0:36:13 Maybe it’s a printable file that you’re trying to sell on Etsy.
    0:36:15 Maybe it’s a print on demand t-shirt design.
    0:36:17 Like there’s lots of different ways
    0:36:18 and lots of different platforms
    0:36:21 to start to mess around and play with that stuff.
    0:36:23 But that’s kind of how I’m looking at YouTube
    0:36:26 and trying to build up that presence over there.
    0:36:29 But that’s the second part of the triple threat, the tool.
    0:36:31 So Mike mentioned Empower.
    0:36:35 Monarch is the one-time sponsor of the podcast
    0:36:37 that is kind of in a similar space.
    0:36:39 So we’ll link that up as well.
    0:36:42 And your favorite book from the last 12 months.
    0:36:43 – I think I got to go with the book
    0:36:47 that really ties into the active versus passive income theme.
    0:36:50 And that’s “Buy Back Your Time” by Dan Martell.
    0:36:52 I think that’s a really good book
    0:36:55 that when vendingpreneurs sign up for our community,
    0:36:57 vending’s not passive right out of the gates.
    0:37:01 But when you start to actually quantify
    0:37:03 high-leveraged tasks in your life
    0:37:05 and do self-reflection on,
    0:37:07 should I be stocking a vending machine
    0:37:09 or should I be going to close the owner
    0:37:11 of 20 more properties that really–
    0:37:13 – Yeah, to get the next locations lined up, yeah.
    0:37:15 – Exactly, those locations
    0:37:17 are worth a couple thousand bucks a month.
    0:37:20 So those machines, you can hire someone for 20 bucks an hour.
    0:37:21 So it just forces you to really go
    0:37:23 through a self-evaluation reflection
    0:37:27 on getting the time that’s most meaningful for you.
    0:37:29 And it’s such an easy read
    0:37:30 and it’s definitely a book I recommend.
    0:37:33 – Yeah, a couple thousand bucks a month per location
    0:37:36 plus the equity, the multiple that that would be worth
    0:37:39 to go and sell the route, like hugely more leveraged
    0:37:42 than going and piling more Snickers bars
    0:37:43 into the back of the machine.
    0:37:44 – 100%.
    0:37:47 – All right, “Buy Back Your Time” by Dan Martell.
    0:37:50 We’ll link that one up, have not read that one myself,
    0:37:52 but I’m looking forward to checking it out
    0:37:55 and kind of lean into this elimination automation
    0:37:56 delegation framework of like,
    0:37:58 do I really need to be doing that?
    0:38:00 So again, buy back your time.
    0:38:05 Mike is Mr. Passive_on_X, you can learn more about him
    0:38:09 and the vendingpreneur program at vendingpreneurs.com
    0:38:12 where side hustle show listeners graciously get 10% off.
    0:38:13 Thank you, Mike, for that.
    0:38:15 If you missed our earlier episode
    0:38:17 on how to start a vending machine route of your own,
    0:38:19 make sure to check that out.
    0:38:23 Number 599 of the side hustle show in your podcast app.
    0:38:25 Big thanks to Mike for stopping by again,
    0:38:28 sharing his insight, big thanks to our sponsors
    0:38:30 for helping make this content free for everyone.
    0:38:34 You can hit up sidehustlenation.com/deals
    0:38:37 for all the latest offers from our sponsors in one place.
    0:38:39 Thank you for supporting the advertisers
    0:38:40 that support the show.
    0:38:41 That is it for me.
    0:38:43 Thank you so much for tuning in.
    0:38:45 If you find an value in the show,
    0:38:47 the greatest compliment is to share it with a friend.
    0:38:49 So fire off that text message,
    0:38:51 let them know about this conversation.
    0:38:53 And until next time, let’s go out there
    0:38:54 and make something happen
    0:38:56 and I’ll catch you in the next edition
    0:38:57 of the side hustle show.
    0:38:58 Hustle on.

    Many side hustlers dream of passive income — that magical money machine that keeps churning even while you sleep.

    But is it a realistic goal for everyone?

    And with limited time, what should side hustlers focus on? To help break this down, we’re going three rounds with Mr. Passive himself, Mike Hoffmann.

    (Check out Mike Hoffmann’s Vendingpreneur training program and get 10% off!)

    Full Show Notes: Active vs. Passive Income

    New to the Show? Get your personalized money-making playlist here!

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  • 622: $1k/Month Per Client: The Case For Starting a Niche Virtual Assistant Service

    AI transcript
    0:00:06 $1,000 per month per client while starting a niche virtual assistant service might be
    0:00:10 the fastest way to get to your extra income goals.
    0:00:11 What’s up?
    0:00:12 What’s up?
    0:00:13 Nick Loper here.
    0:00:14 Welcome to The Silent Hustle Show.
    0:00:17 We’re part of the Entrepreneur Podcast Network, and if you are looking for realistic ways to
    0:00:20 make extra money, you’re in the right place.
    0:00:23 There’s a lot of talk about thousand true fans.
    0:00:27 It’s this classic essay by Kevin Kelly that argues you don’t need millions of followers
    0:00:31 to make a living online, they just need a thousand true fans.
    0:00:36 These are the people who support your work year in, year out, but it can take some time
    0:00:37 to build up that fan base.
    0:00:43 So today, I want to contrast a thousand true fans with the idea of 10 true clients.
    0:00:48 This is something I picked up from the Tropical MBA podcast years ago, 10 True Clients, or
    0:00:51 maybe even starting with one true client at $1,000 a month.
    0:00:55 Today’s guest did just that, did it in a really unique niche.
    0:01:00 He had a bit of background in trucking, so he started a virtual dispatch service, serving
    0:01:04 drivers all around the country from LearnDispatch.com.
    0:01:07 Roman Shmunjak, welcome to The Silent Hustle Show.
    0:01:08 Hello, Nick.
    0:01:10 Thank you for having me on the podcast.
    0:01:11 You bet.
    0:01:12 Stick around in this one.
    0:01:16 We’re learning how you might come up with your unique service idea, how to connect with
    0:01:19 potential customers, how to find those first true clients, right?
    0:01:24 And how you might be able to scale your operation beyond hours for dollars.
    0:01:29 The free listener only bonus for this week is my big list of 101 service business ideas
    0:01:32 that you might be able to apply some of Roman’s tactics to.
    0:01:37 That’s at sidehustlenation.com/roman, or just follow the show notes link in the episode
    0:01:40 description, and it’ll get you right over there.
    0:01:44 So Roman, you came at it from a unique angle with a background in trucking, having owned
    0:01:46 some semi-trucks yourself.
    0:01:51 But there’s this, I made it moment, this moment of, “Yeah, look, I always dreamed of working
    0:01:52 remotely.”
    0:01:53 And there you are.
    0:01:56 It’s a balcony overlooking the Mediterranean.
    0:01:58 And there’s this realization, “Hey, I’m serving clients in the US.
    0:02:02 I’m living the Nomad lifestyle, working remotely.
    0:02:04 Talk to me about what it took to get there.”
    0:02:05 Absolutely.
    0:02:10 Well, obviously, when I was getting into the trucking industry, I had no idea that it would
    0:02:15 lead to a realization of my dream of remote work.
    0:02:22 Around 2010, I had an opportunity to purchase some semi-trucks, and I was learning about
    0:02:23 the industry.
    0:02:30 It was very interesting business, especially for me, someone who is coming from a background
    0:02:32 in real estate sales.
    0:02:36 But I learned, as problems were coming at me.
    0:02:40 But one of the most important things for trucking company, in order to make money, you have
    0:02:44 to make sure that your trucks are constantly moving, because a sitting truck–
    0:02:47 Yeah, if you’re not on the road, it’s similar to an airplane, right?
    0:02:49 If it’s not in the air, it’s not making money.
    0:02:50 Exactly.
    0:02:51 It’s even worse.
    0:02:53 You have to make money, because you have to pay for the equipment.
    0:02:55 You have to pay for fuel.
    0:02:56 You have to pay insurance.
    0:02:57 You have to pay driver.
    0:02:59 You are paying for all kind of permits.
    0:03:03 So a sitting truck, not only not making your money, it is losing your money.
    0:03:07 So it has to move all the time.
    0:03:12 And that is one of the primary challenges of a trucking company owner, is to move all
    0:03:13 the trucks.
    0:03:17 We did an episode on trucking, and that was like, “Okay, go buy this used freight liner.”
    0:03:18 She called it a freight shaker.
    0:03:22 See if you can find one used for $35,000 to $45,000.
    0:03:23 And then, “Oh, great.”
    0:03:26 Then you book it up for $1,000 a week, and you’re like, “Okay, I’m listening.
    0:03:28 That sounds like a great ROI.”
    0:03:32 But it’s like that question mark in the middle of how to fill that up, and that’s maybe where
    0:03:33 the dispatch part comes in.
    0:03:37 I got to play matchmaker between people who need stuff shipped, and then the trucking
    0:03:40 supply and the trucker is to actually do the moving.
    0:03:41 That is correct.
    0:03:46 With trucking companies, in most cases, either the owner will be taking care of finding freight,
    0:03:53 trucking business for his company, or they will need to hire someone to do it for them.
    0:04:00 And in my case, again, I have discovered, as I was trying to expand my trucking business,
    0:04:06 we were advertising, looking for owner operators, other truckers with their own trucks and trailers
    0:04:09 to come on board and join our company.
    0:04:17 I’ve learned that a lot of them did not necessarily care about running under our license or using
    0:04:18 our insurance.
    0:04:23 What they did care about is having consistent freight for their truck.
    0:04:25 That was their main pain point.
    0:04:30 With some of them, we did start working where basically we would make a deal, “Look, you
    0:04:32 can operate your trucking company in any way you want.
    0:04:36 We will just help you secure the cargo.
    0:04:40 We will keep your truck busy and you will pay us a percentage of your gross revenue
    0:04:44 or a flat fee, depending on how we set up the agreement.”
    0:04:45 Okay.
    0:04:46 Interesting.
    0:04:49 So it was almost by accident where it’s like, “Well, that wasn’t the initial intent.
    0:04:54 The intent was to find other owner operators to kind of expand our fleet, basically.
    0:04:59 But then the pain point, the entrepreneurial spidey sense starts tingling and say, “Well,
    0:05:00 everybody’s complaining about this one thing.
    0:05:01 How do I find enough freight?”
    0:05:03 So you’re like, “Oh, shoot.
    0:05:06 Maybe if I could solve that pain point, it’s another side hustle opportunity, another business
    0:05:07 opportunity.”
    0:05:08 Yeah, absolutely.
    0:05:14 It was exactly a side hassle because I would just do it kind of in parallel with finding
    0:05:15 freight for my trucks.
    0:05:18 I would just look for freight for some other trucks as well.
    0:05:21 And I did not think too much of it initially.
    0:05:29 But as I gained more clients and kind of analyzed the whole situation, I just saw how great
    0:05:33 this business model is versus trucking because with trucking, you have to purchase equipment
    0:05:35 which costs a lot of money.
    0:05:36 You have to hire drivers.
    0:05:40 You have to find the right kind of drivers because otherwise they will destroy your trucks
    0:05:42 and your business.
    0:05:43 You have to go through safety audits.
    0:05:49 Again, it’s a very cash-intensive business because you have to buy a lot of fuel.
    0:05:52 You have to turn invoices.
    0:05:59 And here all I need is really a computer, phone line, and reliable internet connection.
    0:06:00 Nothing else.
    0:06:02 I don’t have to buy anything.
    0:06:05 I do not necessarily need to hire anyone.
    0:06:10 My job is just provide this service, make sure that clients are happy, and receive the
    0:06:11 money.
    0:06:15 And as you already mentioned, suddenly I realize that this can be done from anywhere.
    0:06:19 I can be in the US or I can be in Mexico or I can be in Europe.
    0:06:23 It doesn’t matter as long as I have reliable internet connection.
    0:06:25 I can do my job.
    0:06:26 That’s interesting.
    0:06:30 It reminds me of– I mean, trucking has been around for ages, so I don’t know if I would
    0:06:35 consider it a gold rush, but it reminds me of a selling shovels into the gold rush mentality
    0:06:41 rather than being the miner in this case, buying all those expensive equipment and licenses
    0:06:42 and dealing with that.
    0:06:46 It’s like, okay, what’s the picks and shovels or what’s the service that I could sell into
    0:06:48 that industry?
    0:06:51 And it came up with this patch thing.
    0:06:54 To bring it a little bit broader, it might not be trucking, in your case.
    0:06:58 But you might have a front row seat to whatever industry you’re involved with and saying,
    0:06:59 “Well, what are the common pain points here?”
    0:07:01 Like, you start to pay attention to those things.
    0:07:06 What comes up over and over again, and that’s how I’ve come up with different product ideas,
    0:07:10 different episode ideas, content ideas, and it can be the same thing in your case.
    0:07:13 Just keep those ears to the ground and see what people are talking about.
    0:07:17 So it starts out with looking for other owner operators to join the fleet, and then they
    0:07:18 sign on.
    0:07:22 I’m not super interested in that, but if you can help us fill our trucks with this freight
    0:07:24 stuff, so what happens there?
    0:07:26 How do you even go about doing that?
    0:07:30 If that’s a pain point for them, what makes it easy for you, or is it easy to do?
    0:07:34 Most of our clients are small trucking companies.
    0:07:39 Sometimes it’s just an individual, a truck driver, who owns one truck.
    0:07:42 He’s spending most of his time driving this truck.
    0:07:49 He does not have the time to sit in front of the screen looking at various load options,
    0:07:50 making phone calls.
    0:07:55 And then once the load is booked, some paperwork has to be completed, so it’s not very convenient
    0:08:02 to complete paperwork while driving an 80,000-pound machine down the highway.
    0:08:06 For this type of client, it is essential that there’s somebody else who provides this back
    0:08:10 office support and takes care of their business.
    0:08:11 Okay.
    0:08:16 And then for you, there’s freight marketplaces, there’s relationships with distributors.
    0:08:22 How do you go about playing that middleman, especially if people are all over the country?
    0:08:26 Knowing nothing about the trucking industry, it sounds kind of daunting to try and shoot.
    0:08:27 Yeah, I can play matchmaker for you.
    0:08:29 I can find you stuff to ship.
    0:08:30 Absolutely.
    0:08:36 Well, there are many electronic marketplaces called load boards where shippers and freight
    0:08:40 brokers post freight that needs to be shipped.
    0:08:42 And they basically work kind of like a search engine.
    0:08:47 You can set up the origin location of your truck.
    0:08:52 You can set up a destination if you want this truck to head in a particular direction, and
    0:08:55 it will show you available load options.
    0:09:00 Now your job, again, is to call, learn more about this option, get all the details such
    0:09:05 as commodity weight and how much this shipper is willing to pay for the load.
    0:09:11 And if it is matching criteria of your client, then all you have to do is book it and complete
    0:09:14 all the paperwork related to the load.
    0:09:15 Okay.
    0:09:17 So they say, I want to stay within a 1,000 mile radius.
    0:09:21 I want to be home by Fridays, kind of like that type of criteria.
    0:09:22 Yeah, absolutely.
    0:09:23 So I’ll give you two scenarios.
    0:09:29 So you may have a trucker who will start his work week on Monday in Atlanta, and he may
    0:09:32 say, look, Roman would like to leave on Monday.
    0:09:33 I don’t care where I go.
    0:09:35 I want to run all week.
    0:09:37 I want to come back on Friday.
    0:09:42 So then we’re going to set up as his original location being Atlanta, Georgia.
    0:09:46 We’ll give it certain radius where he’s willing to travel to pick up the load, and we’ll look
    0:09:49 at all kinds of available options.
    0:09:52 Then let’s say coming Thursday, wherever he is, we’re going to be looking a lot for a
    0:09:58 load that would be heading back toward Atlanta, Georgia, so he can come back home and spend
    0:10:00 a weekend at home, and then restart following Monday.
    0:10:01 Okay.
    0:10:07 Yeah, it’s just a remote admin assistant in a very specific role, a very specific industry.
    0:10:08 Absolutely.
    0:10:09 It’s quite simple.
    0:10:13 We’ve got a lot of our students in our online school, they concentrate a lot.
    0:10:18 They say, I want to learn the load boards or the software, and I tell them that those
    0:10:20 functions are very basic.
    0:10:21 This is not rocket science.
    0:10:23 Just about anyone can do it.
    0:10:24 You set up.
    0:10:28 You just basically search from where you are to where you want to go, and that’s pretty
    0:10:29 much it.
    0:10:31 And is it typical to charge hourly for that?
    0:10:33 Is it on a performance basis?
    0:10:37 Like, hey, we booked you $2,000 worth of freight, so we’re going to take a percentage of that.
    0:10:39 What’s typical on the pricing side?
    0:10:45 The most common is to take a percentage of the gross revenue you book for the trucking
    0:10:46 company.
    0:10:54 If you book, let’s say, five loads, each paying $1,000, that means you booked $5,000 worth
    0:11:01 of loads for the trucking company, and you can charge percentage of this revenue.
    0:11:07 The percentage currently range anything from three to eight percent, probably with five
    0:11:11 to six percent being right in the middle.
    0:11:18 So by booking $5,000 worth of loads for a client, you would make about $250.
    0:11:21 Alternatively, you can just charge a flat fee.
    0:11:28 Let’s say someone has a specialized type of equipment, and they are in a high-margin,
    0:11:35 high-gross niche of trucking industry, they might be grossing $10,000 or $12,000 a week.
    0:11:38 So they may not be willing to pay you the percentage.
    0:11:41 So in such situation, you can agree on a flat rate.
    0:11:46 We can say, okay, we will charge, let’s say, $300 a week flat fee, and we’ll book all
    0:11:49 the loads you want for that one truck.
    0:11:51 And that’s another model.
    0:11:55 There are also some people that just charge a flat fee per load, they’ll say, I charge
    0:12:00 $50 or $60 per load I book, regardless of how much it makes.
    0:12:05 Gotcha, and then it just becomes a matter of booking consistently, and then growing
    0:12:10 the fleet or growing the number of drivers that you’re working with.
    0:12:14 Is that kind of where the marketing would start if I wanted to get in with this, just
    0:12:16 connecting with owner operators?
    0:12:17 Yeah, absolutely.
    0:12:20 Marketing is the most important thing.
    0:12:24 This is what I see a lot again with aspiring dispatchers.
    0:12:28 They believe that once they learn dispatching, they are all set.
    0:12:34 And dispatching is not difficult, but just learning a skill does not make you an entrepreneur.
    0:12:37 Truck dispatching is just like any other business.
    0:12:42 You have to market it, you have to convert your clients.
    0:12:47 That will basically propel you to success, depending on your skill set and your knowledge,
    0:12:50 you can implement different strategies to acquire clients.
    0:12:55 And I can go in greater detail on that if you would like to hear.
    0:12:59 Start with Roman in just a moment, including those specific marketing strategies and how
    0:13:06 many clients it took before he took this side hustle full time, right after this.
    0:13:09 That’s the sound of another sale on your online Shopify store.
    0:13:13 But did you know Shopify powers in person selling too?
    0:13:14 It’s true.
    0:13:20 Shopify is the sound of selling everywhere, online, in store, on social media, and beyond.
    0:13:23 Shopify POS is your command center for your retail store.
    0:13:28 That means you can accept payments, manage inventory, and track every sale across your
    0:13:29 business in one place.
    0:13:33 With Shopify, you get a powerhouse selling partner that helps you drive store traffic
    0:13:38 with plug-and-play tools built for marketing campaigns from TikTok to Instagram and beyond.
    0:13:43 You can take payments by smartphone, transform your tablet into a point of sale system, or
    0:13:47 use Shopify’s POS Go mobile device for a battle-tested solution.
    0:13:52 Plus, Shopify’s award-winning help is there to support your success every step of the
    0:13:53 way.
    0:13:55 You can also do retail right with Shopify.
    0:14:01 Go ahead, sign up for a $1 per month trial period at Shopify.com/SideHustle.
    0:14:02 That’s all lowercase.
    0:14:10 Go to Shopify.com/SideHustle to take your retail business to the next level today, Shopify.com/SideHustle.
    0:14:11 Yeah.
    0:14:14 Do you have an example or two?
    0:14:17 I’m imagining taking flyers down to the truck stop.
    0:14:21 That’s a few exits down the highway from us, but there may be a more efficient way.
    0:14:24 Don’t you see effective for connecting with those drivers?
    0:14:30 It’s funny because I hear the story about flyers quite often, and no, I probably would
    0:14:34 not find that to be the most efficient or effective strategy.
    0:14:35 Here’s why.
    0:14:40 If you go to the truck stop and leave flyers there, someone may see it.
    0:14:45 The question is, does this person need your service at this particular moment?
    0:14:50 If they don’t, they will pay no attention to it, just like with the social media.
    0:14:53 A lot of people say, “Should I advertise on social media?”
    0:14:54 Yes, you can.
    0:15:00 You can basically put your ad in front of a target group, which would be, let’s say,
    0:15:02 interested in the trucking industry.
    0:15:07 The problem is they may not be in need of your service at this particular moment.
    0:15:11 Will they remember you two months later when they need you?
    0:15:13 Maybe, maybe not.
    0:15:18 The most effective way, when you need something and you need it now, what are you going to
    0:15:19 do?
    0:15:25 Well, most of us will go to Google and just go into Google, in our case, truck dispatching
    0:15:31 service or truck dispatching service in Atlanta, because you will not do such search for fun.
    0:15:35 You’re doing it because you need this service and you need it at this moment.
    0:15:42 Really, I know it’s online advertisement basics, but just Google ads, they do the magic.
    0:15:48 As long as you have a good-looking website, which looks attractive to your potential clients,
    0:15:52 you can easily drive traffic to the website, and then you will be receiving emails, phone
    0:15:55 calls, and you just have to convert.
    0:15:56 Got it.
    0:16:01 I’ve got to imagine if somebody is Googling truck dispatching service, they’re probably
    0:16:05 seeing the ad results, but they’re also seeing organic results from people who’ve been doing
    0:16:06 it forever.
    0:16:08 There’s probably companies overseas.
    0:16:12 How is a new provider competing in that space?
    0:16:14 Well, you just mentioned SEO.
    0:16:21 Again, if you are trying to target some specific keyword, let’s say, truck dispatching service
    0:16:26 in a particular area, some trucking companies prefer to work with people locally, so they
    0:16:32 will look for someone who is close by, and the keyword difficulty may not be that high,
    0:16:34 so there might be some opportunities.
    0:16:39 However, with Google ads, yes, you will be competing against other people, but as you
    0:16:43 know, Google will just serve up a certain number of options.
    0:16:49 Here what is important is to have the right kind of website, okay, with the right kind
    0:16:50 of content.
    0:16:52 You have to differentiate yourself.
    0:16:57 You basically have to explain to people why they should work with you.
    0:17:02 If you intend to work on your own, let’s say you’re not hiring a team, you’re not a team.
    0:17:06 Very often it’s good to just make a website about yourself.
    0:17:13 Just tell them who you are, because a lot of truck drivers, they like to work with this
    0:17:15 one individual, okay?
    0:17:17 You’re kind of building a relationship there.
    0:17:24 They don’t want the big, huge company where you have 20 dispatchers, and every time someone
    0:17:26 picks up the phone, they don’t know who that is.
    0:17:29 They want this personalized approach.
    0:17:36 So if you are just a guy or just a girl and you are planning on doing it on your own,
    0:17:37 tell them about it.
    0:17:39 Tell them, “Look, here I am.
    0:17:41 My name is Joe.”
    0:17:43 And anytime you call, I will answer your call.
    0:17:47 If there’s going to be a problem, I will be solving your problem.
    0:17:52 So this kind of differentiates you from all the other companies that are out there.
    0:17:57 And if trucker likes what they see on your website, they will make that phone call.
    0:17:58 They will send you an email.
    0:18:01 Yeah, I think that’s true of really any solo service provider.
    0:18:07 It’s like, “Why are you versus some random person on Fiverr or wherever else?”
    0:18:09 If you got somebody through your website, you did a lot of things right to even get
    0:18:10 to that point.
    0:18:16 And now, if you can showcase your unique value proposition, I think that makes a lot of sense.
    0:18:22 What did it take for you in terms of client volume or dispatch volume before you’re like,
    0:18:23 “Forget it.
    0:18:24 Forget it with these trucks.
    0:18:25 I’m going all in.
    0:18:26 I’m selling the assets.
    0:18:27 I’m selling the trucks.
    0:18:28 And I’m just going to do this remote dispatch thing.”
    0:18:34 In my case, I think somewhere around, once I had about five clients and they were generating
    0:18:39 around $5,000 in revenue, at that point, I was like, “Okay, I know I will be making
    0:18:47 less money than with a trucking company, but I will also relieve myself of a lot of stress.”
    0:18:52 Also, at that time, me and my wife had an idea that we could go and travel.
    0:18:56 That would be definitely enough money for us to go abroad.
    0:19:02 At that point, I decided to terminate the trucking business and sell off the equipment
    0:19:04 and just concentrate on dispatching.
    0:19:05 All right.
    0:19:06 Five clients, $5,000 a month.
    0:19:11 Do you have an estimate of the hourly load trying to get a sense like, “If I want to
    0:19:16 go do this, what is it going to take time-wise realistically to do a good job for those customers?”
    0:19:20 A lot of this depends on the market conditions.
    0:19:25 So for example, if we are working in a good market when there is a lot of freight and
    0:19:30 trucks are in demand, it is extremely easy to bookload.
    0:19:36 You may start at eight o’clock in the morning and by 10 a.m., everyone is booked.
    0:19:38 We can say, “You are done for the day.”
    0:19:42 Now, there is little caveat to that.
    0:19:44 You are done for the day unless something goes wrong.
    0:19:50 If something goes wrong, you may have to go back to your computer and address the situation
    0:19:52 that came up.
    0:19:55 In a more difficult market, the situation may be different.
    0:20:00 You may book some trucks right away, but you may have a truck in some sort of a challenging
    0:20:06 area where there is very little freight and you may end up sitting for hours making phone
    0:20:10 calls trying to find a suitable option for your client to get them out.
    0:20:14 Part of that is like, “Well, if you are parked in the middle of nowhere, part of that is
    0:20:18 on you, Mr. Client or Mr. Client, you’ve got to go where the goods are if you want to get
    0:20:19 some shipments.”
    0:20:23 It is also partially on us because we probably booked that load to go.
    0:20:25 Yeah, if they’re out there in the middle of the week.
    0:20:28 It just happens that sometimes market conditions change.
    0:20:34 You send a truck to one location and you know that historically it’s good, but then something
    0:20:38 changes and tomorrow there is just no freight there.
    0:20:42 In other instance, just like you said, sometimes you will get a call and your client will tell
    0:20:45 you, “Hey, I just booked myself a load to Florida.
    0:20:48 It was paying great.”
    0:20:52 And you’re just saying, “Well, that’s fantastic, but there is no freight in Florida.
    0:20:54 So what are we going to do tomorrow?”
    0:20:55 For the return trip.
    0:20:56 Okay.
    0:21:01 Well, yeah, so and then we have to solve the problem they have created.
    0:21:08 This is an interesting logistical puzzle and part of my brain says I like that challenge
    0:21:13 and all of these moving chess pieces and trying to make sure everybody is optimally filled
    0:21:14 and booked.
    0:21:17 And then the other part of me is like, “Dude, that sounds like a lot of moving parts with
    0:21:19 a lot of variables.”
    0:21:21 It’s not that difficult as it seems.
    0:21:27 Once you get the sense for the market and this is unfortunately comes only with experience.
    0:21:32 As you do this more, you will know where to go and what to do as you move trucks on the
    0:21:33 daily basis.
    0:21:38 You have a sense if you are making the right choice or the bad choice.
    0:21:44 So the whole process is very simple and it’s pretty easy to learn.
    0:21:46 The rest is just gaining experience doing it.
    0:21:52 And do some of it become recurring where I’m picturing like a Walmart, they have probably
    0:21:56 obviously they have their own fleet and they’re not dealing with independent dispatchers and
    0:21:57 stuff.
    0:22:02 But like if they know every week this many units of a particular item is likely to sell.
    0:22:05 So we’re going to have to restock that and it seems like it might be somewhat predictable
    0:22:06 week after week.
    0:22:10 Like is there any sense like that where it’s like, “Okay, a certain percentage is going
    0:22:14 to be booked with these like easy low hanging fruit recurring type of jobs?”
    0:22:18 We need to consider there are actually two markets, two freight markets.
    0:22:23 One is considered to be contract market and another one is a spot market.
    0:22:28 What we’ve been talking about previously where most independent truck dispatchers work is
    0:22:30 a spot market.
    0:22:33 That’s someone that needs something moved today or tomorrow.
    0:22:34 Okay.
    0:22:36 It is not a regular freight.
    0:22:41 They just need, I don’t know, a scrapyard needs a load of recycled aluminum.
    0:22:42 Okay.
    0:22:43 It’s not regular.
    0:22:48 They just need one tomorrow and it gets posted on the load board.
    0:22:49 Then there is contract freight.
    0:22:51 That’s exactly what you just mentioned.
    0:22:56 It’s a store that is shipping something or a plant production plant that is shipping
    0:22:59 something on a regular basis day by day.
    0:23:06 Now, it’s a bit different because in most cases, in order to tap into contract market,
    0:23:08 it has to be a larger trucking company.
    0:23:09 Okay.
    0:23:14 A shipper that has a production plant and sends out a load every day, they need to make
    0:23:18 sure that that load is going out every single day.
    0:23:23 If Joe, the trucker, comes in with one truck, they will never give him a contract because
    0:23:27 if his truck breaks down, they will not be able to ship out what they need to ship and
    0:23:30 they may have all kinds of problems.
    0:23:35 Also with the contract market, it’s usually a bidding system where you have to make a
    0:23:38 bid for the lowest possible rate that you’re willing to transport.
    0:23:44 So there is the urban myth among truckers that that’s the holy grail is the contract
    0:23:48 freight, but they don’t realize that in reality, it is not.
    0:23:54 Now, there is also an exception where sometimes these two things, the spot market and contract
    0:23:56 market sometimes cross.
    0:24:01 For example, I had a client who lived in Charleston, South Carolina.
    0:24:07 Every Monday, he would leave Charleston and we would book him a load, go into Arkansas,
    0:24:10 and then he would return home for the weekend.
    0:24:14 And we would see the same load on the load board going to Arkansas.
    0:24:15 We would book it again.
    0:24:21 And after, I believe, two or three times this broker told us, look, we have this load every
    0:24:22 single Monday.
    0:24:24 Do you guys want to do it?
    0:24:27 That made our job much easier because they would not even post it.
    0:24:32 They would just email us a week before and say, are you guys available on Monday?
    0:24:35 I had to do nothing and I get a percentage of that load.
    0:24:37 So it was a fantastic deal.
    0:24:38 Yeah, for sure.
    0:24:40 You mentioned best case scenario.
    0:24:42 You’re in and out in a couple of hours.
    0:24:43 Everything is easy.
    0:24:47 And then you said, except when things go wrong, what are some of those scenarios when you
    0:24:50 get pulled back into the fray and you got to put out some fires?
    0:24:56 Well, the most common scenario is for load which you have booked to cancel.
    0:25:01 You’ll get a phone call an hour later and they will tell you that this load is not going
    0:25:02 to be going.
    0:25:07 Or even worse, your driver drives somewhere, let’s say for 80 miles, arrives at the shipper
    0:25:11 and shipper tells him, well, sorry, the product is not ready today.
    0:25:14 It might be ready tomorrow or two days later.
    0:25:19 And at this point, you have to start over and try to get some sort of a compensation for
    0:25:21 your client for the work they already done.
    0:25:25 Yeah, and if you were only going to make 250 bucks on that load and you’re trying to pay
    0:25:29 him for fuel and lodging potentially, how does that work?
    0:25:33 If load gets canceled, you usually can’t get some sort of a compensation from the freight
    0:25:34 broker.
    0:25:37 A lot depends again on the situation.
    0:25:43 If this driver went somewhere in the morning, spent two hours, didn’t get loaded, you may
    0:25:52 get $150 to $250 from the broker for what is called truck order not used, but we still
    0:25:54 have time to rebook him on another load.
    0:25:56 So it’s not all that bad of a situation.
    0:26:01 However, if this is happening, let’s say, in the late afternoon, then driver may lose
    0:26:02 entire day of work.
    0:26:08 And that is a bad scenario because a few hundred dollars will not compensate.
    0:26:12 There are, I could tell some horror stories when, let’s say, driver picks up a load and
    0:26:18 supposed to deliver somewhere and we have already another load planned for them, but
    0:26:23 receiver decides not to unload them for one reason or another.
    0:26:28 And sometimes they may say, well, I’m sorry, there was an appointment which you missed
    0:26:31 and next appointment is four days later.
    0:26:39 And now your client is getting stuck with cargo in their trailer and he can’t do anything.
    0:26:45 And we have to salvage this situation somehow and figure out who made the mistake, why this
    0:26:46 situation happened.
    0:26:48 Yeah, just moving physical products around.
    0:26:53 Like landing at the airport and they’re like, we made it, but there’s no gates open, no
    0:26:54 gates available.
    0:26:57 So we’re going to park here for a minute while we try and figure this out.
    0:26:58 That’s an interesting one.
    0:27:02 More with Roman in just a moment, including how he removed himself from the day to day
    0:27:08 dispatch work, scaled to 15 to 30 trucks in the new side hustle that created right after
    0:27:09 this.
    0:27:13 Now, did you go down the path of, hey, I’m working remote, I’m living the dream, I got
    0:27:18 my five clients, did you eventually go down the path of trying to scale this up as an
    0:27:22 agency and hire subcontract dispatch people?
    0:27:24 What was the next stage for you?
    0:27:25 Correct.
    0:27:30 I don’t think that I initially had a plan of building an agency, but I just wanted to
    0:27:37 make my job easier because sometimes some kids would have some sort of events or I wanted
    0:27:40 to travel somewhere in an inconvenient time zone.
    0:27:46 So what I did initially is I hired a virtual assistant.
    0:27:53 The first one was from Philippines, spoke great English, and initially I just trained
    0:27:56 him to complete paperwork.
    0:28:02 I would make the phone calls as soon as paperwork came in, he would complete everything and
    0:28:05 that made my work much more efficient.
    0:28:11 Then I decided to also assign duties of making phone calls to the brokers, getting information
    0:28:13 and so on and so on.
    0:28:19 And then I realized that this person can really replace my duties and then I realized I could
    0:28:25 technically scale it to something greater, take on more clients as long as there is staff
    0:28:26 to manage them.
    0:28:27 Yeah.
    0:28:29 Is that what ended up happening?
    0:28:30 That’s what ended up happening.
    0:28:36 Eventually I moved team to India, I would provide them with the manuals and training
    0:28:41 materials so they can learn in theory what needs to be done.
    0:28:48 Then we would do some practical exercises and at some point I pretty much stepped away
    0:28:52 from making the phone calls and doing the paperwork.
    0:28:57 So I would still obviously work on client acquisition and I would work on problem resolution,
    0:29:00 but the leg work would be done by hired help.
    0:29:01 Okay, that makes sense.
    0:29:07 So they’re working on the scheduling, the billing, the paperwork and you turn your attention
    0:29:12 to sales and it’s not just the inbound, hey, somebody found our Google listing or somebody
    0:29:18 found our ad, is there any outbound of trying to find smaller fleets because it’s like one
    0:29:23 to one hand-to-hand combat grassroots gorilla marketing or it’s like, okay, this guy or
    0:29:27 this trucking company has like four or five trucks, like, okay, that would be an ideal
    0:29:32 client because we could stack on a chunk of revenue all at once versus clawing away one
    0:29:33 client at a time.
    0:29:35 I don’t know, what’s it look like on that side?
    0:29:36 Two things I would mention.
    0:29:41 First of all, yeah, you can absolutely target, there are databases of trucking companies
    0:29:46 that are available where you can basically target this specific, let’s say trucking companies
    0:29:48 that have less than five trucks.
    0:29:52 Those are usually your primary clients because anyone who has more than five trucks, they
    0:29:57 can hire an in-house dispatcher that’s going to be working exclusively for them and will
    0:30:01 be doing whatever they need this dispatcher to do.
    0:30:06 So you could get an access to the database and let’s say you could target the specific
    0:30:11 area if you want to go locally or you can target what I recommend when we discuss direct
    0:30:12 marketing.
    0:30:17 I recommend targeting new companies, the ones that just got their license because they’re
    0:30:23 new to this business, they don’t have established contacts, they don’t probably freight is their
    0:30:27 main concern versus a trucking company that’s been in business for five years.
    0:30:31 If they’ve been in business for five years, they already figured out their way of finding
    0:30:33 loads.
    0:30:36 Just registered last week, they may not.
    0:30:39 So it’s a good target to go after.
    0:30:46 Now in terms of taking on too many trucks at the same time, it’s a good problem to have
    0:30:51 and sometimes I would get a call from someone who’d say I have 20 trucks and we would like
    0:30:56 to come on board and I know that it’s probably not realistic.
    0:31:03 First of all, it would require four more people to efficiently handle that many trucks.
    0:31:04 It would be just a mess.
    0:31:08 So usually I would recommend, I would tell them, look, that’s fine.
    0:31:13 We can do 20 trucks, but we will take on only three at the beginning.
    0:31:14 Let’s get going.
    0:31:15 Let’s see how it’s working.
    0:31:17 Let’s make sure you like what we do.
    0:31:20 Let’s make sure we like how you operate.
    0:31:25 And then we’re going to be adding gradually two more trucks, three more trucks.
    0:31:31 This way, I can make sure that I provide qualified staff to take care of your business and we’re
    0:31:35 not going to have this hectic transition when we’re just suddenly trying to figure out what
    0:31:37 to do with 20 trucks tomorrow.
    0:31:38 Right.
    0:31:44 That’s probably the predicament of any agency business where, yeah, it absolutely can scale,
    0:31:49 but it has to scale almost in lockstep with that staff because there’s going to be a certain
    0:31:51 number of hours required.
    0:31:52 That may be the bottleneck.
    0:31:53 That’s not going to change.
    0:31:59 So I was like, well, if one person can handle five trucks, the math can still grow, but
    0:32:01 it’s going to have to grow in parallel there.
    0:32:06 And so that makes it, well, let’s ramp this up slowly, make sure it’s a win for both parties
    0:32:12 and then we’ll continue to add on new staff and serve that and go find qualified dispatchers
    0:32:16 or train new dispatchers to go and do that work for you.
    0:32:19 You’ve shifted a little bit to there’s a great YouTube content, AlphaX Logistics.
    0:32:24 You can find tons of video content about learning the dispatch business, learning the logistics
    0:32:25 business.
    0:32:30 So you made this pivot to the content side, what’s, I mean, this been going on for several
    0:32:31 years at least.
    0:32:35 So the dispatch side is still running and now as a new side hustle is like the teaching
    0:32:36 other people about it.
    0:32:37 Yeah, absolutely.
    0:32:46 That was again, exactly a side hustle because while I was in Europe, I was thinking about,
    0:32:53 okay, well, what else can I do while traveling and again, experiencing this beautiful lifestyle
    0:32:59 that I had, I thought, okay, well, I could teach other people how to do this.
    0:33:04 And again, I knew absolutely nothing about online education.
    0:33:09 It was back 2015, where really it wasn’t a thing.
    0:33:16 Now everyone has a course, everyone is teaching about anything, there are tons of platforms.
    0:33:21 Back then, as I said, it was as primitive as I was trying to figure out how do I make
    0:33:26 videos and upload them to YouTube, but then make sure that nobody can see them unless
    0:33:27 they pay for it.
    0:33:31 So it was like really, really primitive stage.
    0:33:36 The advantage was, as I mentioned, I was training already virtual assistants.
    0:33:40 So I had to create the manuals in order to train them.
    0:33:41 Oh, dang, that’s genius.
    0:33:42 I love that.
    0:33:45 That’s a great selling your sawdust example.
    0:33:46 That’s fantastic.
    0:33:47 Yeah.
    0:33:48 Yeah.
    0:33:49 So I already had a lot of core material.
    0:33:56 Now it was just a matter of converting it into a format that is easy to consume.
    0:34:02 Because when idea was born, and I believe in 2016, we launched LearnDispatch.com, and
    0:34:08 we put out the first version of our training course, and we’ve been basically working on
    0:34:10 it for the last eight years.
    0:34:14 We’re always trying to add more information, more content.
    0:34:19 One of the main advantages I mentioned before, Nick, that you can learn this skill.
    0:34:22 It’s not really that difficult.
    0:34:25 What you cannot learn is experience.
    0:34:32 And that, we help our students, if they get into a situation where they don’t know what
    0:34:39 to do, they can reach out to our support staff and use our experience to solve their problems.
    0:34:46 So that, I think, is something that helps people confidently transition into this industry.
    0:34:48 Yeah, that’s great.
    0:34:50 I didn’t realize I’ve been around for eight years.
    0:34:55 I’ve been doing this training for quite a long time, and I love that idea of taking
    0:34:56 the training.
    0:34:59 Well, we’re doing this internally anyway, but might as well make some of it public-facing
    0:35:02 and try and serve a different audience who might want to get into this.
    0:35:05 I think that’s a really unique way to do it.
    0:35:09 We had a question come through from some listeners, like, “How come every guest has an online
    0:35:10 course?”
    0:35:15 There’s lots of reasons for that, but it’s just kind of a natural progression if people
    0:35:17 are asking questions about how this works.
    0:35:22 If you already have the material, “Oh, here’s a cool new revenue stream to go about it.”
    0:35:27 What does a day in the life look like today if there is such a thing as a typical Wednesday
    0:35:28 for you?
    0:35:34 Well, I still have to start around eight o’clock in the morning because my team usually checks
    0:35:38 in and gives me an update as to what is going on.
    0:35:45 So I have an overview as to which trucks have been booked already, which ones are empty
    0:35:47 and need loads.
    0:35:53 So basically, I take 15 to 30 minutes to see what’s going on with the dispatching side
    0:35:54 of things.
    0:35:57 How many trucks are you responsible for on that side?
    0:36:02 Well, usually we do between 15 and 30 trucks.
    0:36:06 Obviously, I’m not personally responsible for any of them.
    0:36:07 It’s the team.
    0:36:12 I usually only get involved if there is a problem that requires my attention.
    0:36:18 So if the team doesn’t know what to do or how to solve a particular situation, this
    0:36:23 is when I have to get on the phone or another scenario is when I get calls from clients
    0:36:29 complaining about the team not doing something that they’re supposed to be doing.
    0:36:31 Occasionally, I have to- Those are not fun to get.
    0:36:32 They’re not fun.
    0:36:36 But I realized it’s just part of the process.
    0:36:40 People get relaxed sometimes and they forget to do things that they’re supposed to do.
    0:36:46 So sometimes you have to give them a little push so they perform as they should.
    0:36:50 Then usually after I’m done with that, I go and work out.
    0:36:53 That’s essential for me in the mornings.
    0:36:59 That’s when I listen to podcasts and generate new ideas.
    0:37:03 And once I’m done with that, I go back to my office and then work on creative stuff.
    0:37:07 This is when I create new content.
    0:37:10 Everything is not the only ventures that I’m involved in.
    0:37:17 So there’s quite a few things I have to review, read about, and so on and so on.
    0:37:18 That’s cool.
    0:37:23 So running in the CEO seat of this agency, like, “Hey, look, I got to have to check in
    0:37:27 with the team, do the team management, the client management, the performance training
    0:37:29 and evaluation and all that stuff.”
    0:37:34 And then take care of yourself and then play in this content creation game.
    0:37:37 I think that sounds like a pretty fun operation.
    0:37:42 Anything that has really surprised you, either in the logistics side or the content side
    0:37:44 over the last 10 years in the game?
    0:37:53 My main surprise was that I stumbled into my dream of being able to work remotely.
    0:37:55 Again, I did not plan it.
    0:37:56 It just happened.
    0:37:57 It was education again.
    0:38:00 I did not plan to develop this business.
    0:38:03 And it just, again, I stumbled into it.
    0:38:05 And that was another wonderful surprise.
    0:38:07 Well, Roman, this has been awesome.
    0:38:08 What’s next for you?
    0:38:09 What are you excited about these days?
    0:38:10 Where do you want to take it?
    0:38:16 Well, right now, we are working, obviously, we continuously working on the content creation
    0:38:17 for our online school.
    0:38:24 For the dispatching business, we are thinking about concentrating on doing more of a consulting
    0:38:30 work for other trucking companies and other potentially dispatching businesses.
    0:38:38 We’re developing some tools for our students now that everything goes AI, we’re brainstorming
    0:38:44 on how we can bring some helpful tools that would make easier for aspiring dispatchers
    0:38:49 to market their business, to organize their business and so on and so on.
    0:38:50 Yeah.
    0:38:53 I almost didn’t want to bring that up where it’s like, well, how long before you can
    0:38:58 plug in that trucker’s criteria and then there’s an AI software that will match them
    0:39:02 with the perfect fit load based on that criteria.
    0:39:06 It’s like, shoot, if it’s not already in the pipeline, it’s probably coming soon.
    0:39:11 I have a video where I talk about future of dispatching in general.
    0:39:16 And I do point out that at some point, we’re going to have self-driving trucks and then
    0:39:21 it will be certain that the algorithms are going to be picking up the optimal use of
    0:39:25 those machines to basically maximize the capacity.
    0:39:31 However, until we have people involved, people will be making mistakes, people will be messing
    0:39:33 up.
    0:39:37 So I think for a foreseeable future, we’re safe.
    0:39:40 And I could see self-driving trucks being a thing, but I don’t know if they’re going
    0:39:43 to be completely humanless.
    0:39:47 As the example is, we’re going up skiing in the winter and the truckers are pulled over
    0:39:48 on the side of the road.
    0:39:49 They’re putting chains on the track.
    0:39:51 I don’t see a robot doing that just yet.
    0:39:57 So that’s what happens when the weather turns south and you need some human involvement
    0:39:58 for that stuff.
    0:39:59 But that’s really interesting.
    0:40:02 Yeah, problem resolution, again, you have to get creative.
    0:40:04 That’s one thing.
    0:40:06 And another thing, there is a human touch.
    0:40:12 You need to realize that some of the truckers, I mean, they’re on the road for weeks and
    0:40:14 you become their best friend.
    0:40:18 You are the person they actually talk to consistently.
    0:40:25 So really, the robot probably will not do it even though I do hear about AI France being
    0:40:26 out there.
    0:40:30 But I think that the human touch is still necessary at the moment.
    0:40:31 That makes sense.
    0:40:35 Well, you can find Roman at AlphaX Logistics on YouTube.
    0:40:41 Check him out over there, learndispatch.com is the home base, learndispatch.com/sidehustle.
    0:40:46 If you want to learn more, there is a special discount there for Side Hustle Nation listeners.
    0:40:49 Let’s wrap this thing up with your number one tip for Side Hustle Nation.
    0:40:54 Well, my number one tip would be to concentrate on marketing.
    0:41:00 You can be great at truck dispatching, you can be great at any other business, but unless
    0:41:03 you can market your business, you are going to fail.
    0:41:10 So by learning marketing and how to sell your products and services, you will open up the
    0:41:15 opportunities for success for yourself.
    0:41:16 So learn about it.
    0:41:21 There’s tons of resources, tons of free resources, many books, many courses.
    0:41:23 Don’t be lazy.
    0:41:29 Learn how to market and sell your services and you definitely going to succeed in whatever
    0:41:30 field you are in.
    0:41:31 Yeah, absolutely.
    0:41:36 Perry Marshall calls it the tactical triangle of traffic conversion and economics.
    0:41:40 Conversion and how much can you sell, how many of your things can you sell, the economics,
    0:41:42 well, how much can you charge for that thing.
    0:41:44 But the cornerstone piece is that traffic.
    0:41:47 Like, you could have the best offer in the world, but if nobody knows about it, you’re
    0:41:48 not going to sell anything.
    0:41:51 So concentrate on that marketing love, that number one tip.
    0:41:55 The line that I wrote down was I stumbled into my dream and it may sound like an accident,
    0:42:00 but it was the result of being open to the next thing.
    0:42:04 It was the result of listening to the pain points of the owner operators, the drivers
    0:42:05 that you’re talking to.
    0:42:10 Like, hey, we could really use some help in this area and kind of being open to say, well,
    0:42:11 you know what?
    0:42:12 I can help solve that problem.
    0:42:15 If I may not know how to do it, I can figure that out and that’s kind of being the core
    0:42:20 skill of the entrepreneurs, figuring out the next thing and same idea with the content
    0:42:24 business, the education business, like being open to that, listening, well, we already
    0:42:25 have this material.
    0:42:28 How could we repurpose that in a unique way?
    0:42:29 So loved it.
    0:42:30 Took a ton of notes.
    0:42:32 Roman, thanks for joining me.
    0:42:33 Everybody tuning in.
    0:42:37 Your listener bonus for this week is my big list of 101 service business ideas.
    0:42:38 Hey, maybe dispatch isn’t your thing.
    0:42:41 That’s totally fine, but there’s lots of other service business ideas.
    0:42:45 You might be able to apply some of Roman’s tactics to.
    0:42:50 That is at sidehustlenation.com/roman or just follow the show notes link in the episode
    0:42:51 description.
    0:42:52 It’ll get you right over there.
    0:42:54 Big thanks to Roman for sharing his insight.
    0:42:57 Thanks to our sponsors for making this content free for everyone.
    0:43:02 You can hit up sidehustlenation.com/deals for all the latest offers from our sponsors
    0:43:03 in one place.
    0:43:04 That is it for me.
    0:43:06 Thank you so much for tuning in.
    0:43:10 Until next time, let’s go out there and make something happen and I’ll catch you in the
    0:43:13 next edition of The Side Hustle Show. Hustle on.
    0:43:21 [BLANK_AUDIO]

    One of the best ways to come up with business ideas is to start by solving your own problems.

    That’s exactly how today’s guest started his dispatching business.

    What started as a way to keep his trucks busy turned into a service business that serves other trucking companies.

    Roman was able to turn dispatching into a scalable process and now can work from wherever he wants.

    Find out how Roman created this niche-specific specialized service and scaled it with a team of virtual assistants.

    Full Show Notes: How to Start a Dispatch Business

    Listener Bonus: 101 Service Business Ideas

    New to the Show? Get your personalized money-making playlist here!

    Sponsors:

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  • Fast-Track Your Business w/ Virtual “Lunch and Learn” Workshops (Greatest Hits)

    AI transcript
    0:00:06 Here’s an oldie but a goodie from the archives from the Side Hustle show, greatest hits collection.
    0:00:09 What’s up, what’s up, Nick Loper here.
    0:00:15 Welcome to the Side Hustle show because building your own income streams, well, that’s the best way to recession-proof your life.
    0:00:19 One challenge that most new businesses face is the awareness problem.
    0:00:20 Nobody knows you exist.
    0:00:25 In this episode, you’ll learn the fast-track strategy to make that problem go away.
    0:00:29 How to build your email list quickly and connect with your ideal customers.
    0:00:31 Ready? Let’s do it.
    0:00:40 I haven’t had and still currently don’t have a big marketing budget for going and getting new clients.
    0:00:45 I don’t have thousands of dollars a month to run on ads and hope that it works.
    0:00:52 I also didn’t start out knowing a bunch of VP of marketing at big companies or knowing a bunch of founders or anything like that.
    0:01:00 You want to find yourself in this situation where you have an expertise and you can actually help a lot of brands but they don’t know you exist.
    0:01:10 When going through that process of how do I grow, how do I find places to market that will actually get me real clients that isn’t going to be a waste of time.
    0:01:19 This strategy of just getting in front of someone else’s established audience that already has an audience full of people who are potential clients for you.
    0:01:23 They have trust built with that other brand you’re partnering with.
    0:01:30 You can borrow that trust and get it placed on you when they bring you in to teach a workshop to all their people.
    0:01:35 It really helps establish trust with you a lot faster between you and their customers.
    0:01:43 That’s Dustin Lean from jumpxmarketing.com, an agency focused on email and SMS or text message marketing for e-commerce brands.
    0:01:51 We last heard from Dustin back in 2017 and he was just ramping up jumpx after shutting down his own physical product business.
    0:01:58 Since then, he’s grown it into a six-figure operation and he’s built it in such a way that it only requires part-time attention.
    0:02:01 One of his key drivers, partner workshops.
    0:02:10 These virtual lunch and learn sessions where he can showcase his expertise and build his client roster without advertising, without bidding for work.
    0:02:15 This works in just about any niche and in this episode, Dustin breaks down his exact process.
    0:02:20 So you can go out and apply it in your own business to help you keep track of the steps involved.
    0:02:25 I put together a free cheat sheet at sidehustlenation.com/dustin2.
    0:02:34 Once again, that’s at sidehustlenation.com/dustin2dustin and then the number two to grab that free partner workshop cheat sheet.
    0:02:36 Now, back to the interview.
    0:02:44 I want to replicate this thing, maybe for whatever freelance service or whatever agency service that I may have.
    0:02:49 How did you go about identifying your dream targets?
    0:02:53 Was it a dream 100 list? How did you go about saying, “Who should I first reach out to?”
    0:02:55 That’s funny you mentioned dream 100 list.
    0:02:57 Yeah, that actually is exactly what I did.
    0:03:00 But I didn’t quite make it to 100. It’s a lot to find.
    0:03:03 I guess backing up, there’s an avatar that has to be established first.
    0:03:05 You have to know who you’re actually trying to target.
    0:03:10 That’s another reason why I think freelancers or agencies that are niched down,
    0:03:15 not necessarily to something so specific that literally no product exists like that.
    0:03:27 If you’re trying to go so niche that you’re like, “I’m only going to help e-commerce brands that are selling garbage cans to women that are 54 years old living in Wyoming,”
    0:03:29 you’re not going to find any clients. It’s impossible.
    0:03:34 But niching down enough to where you can establish yourself as an expert is really useful.
    0:03:39 It helps you decide who these other brands and websites that you should partner with
    0:03:42 that actually is going to bring you the types of people you want.
    0:03:47 And it establishes kind of this trust that you’re not trying to pretend to know everything.
    0:03:50 I found myself in that position in the beginning and I kind of just niched down.
    0:03:55 And that’s why now it’s e-commerce, e-mail marketing, and SMS marketing.
    0:03:59 And it’s specifically for health and wellness brands. That’s all we work with.
    0:04:05 And it’s really help close clients easier because when you have those conversations or you’re teaching on a workshop or something,
    0:04:09 you know that those people know who you help and who you don’t help.
    0:04:15 So the ones that see themselves in the category that’s the exact right fit, they get really excited because they think,
    0:04:18 “Oh, that’s me. That’s exactly me.”
    0:04:24 And it helps them to trust you over a competitor who’s maybe claiming they can help everyone with everything.
    0:04:29 And that makes it, I imagine, an easier pitch. I would love to come and do an educational workshop
    0:04:34 on the seven critical elements of a killer e-mail campaign or something like that.
    0:04:37 How to grow your e-commerce e-mail list versus like,
    0:04:40 “Let’s just have a workshop about broad digital marketing strategies.”
    0:04:47 It seems like it’s much more actionable for the audience and for the potential audience conduit
    0:04:50 or who might be your influencer that you’re reaching out to.
    0:04:55 Dream 100, by the way, this comes from a book called “The Ultimate Sales Machine” by Chet Homes.
    0:04:58 It’s got a bright red cover. You can’t miss it.
    0:05:02 Highly recommended reading. And the Dream 100 is like your dream client list.
    0:05:06 Like, who would you love to partner with, work with, connect with in some way?
    0:05:10 And then you can kind of start chipping away at that and really focus all your energy on those people
    0:05:14 rather than every other client, every other potential connection under the sun
    0:05:17 because these are the ones that are really going to make or break your business.
    0:05:22 But let’s talk about those. Like, how did you identify those and then we’ll get into kind of the initial outreach?
    0:05:26 The first thing is getting really clear on who your customer is.
    0:05:30 Really the biggest main question is where are they already hanging out?
    0:05:36 Where are they online already? What other brand or website or company has…
    0:05:41 Maybe they have a really big budget and they’ve already spent the money to acquire the customers
    0:05:44 that you also want to acquire. So maybe it’s a software company.
    0:05:47 When you’re filling out that Dream 100 list of who to partner with,
    0:05:51 think about who has your exact same target audience but is not a competitor.
    0:05:55 And that brings us back to talking about why niching down is important
    0:06:01 because in my case, I’m doing email marketing and SMS marketing for e-commerce brands.
    0:06:07 Now, I can go to another agency even or someone who’s a blogger with a big audience
    0:06:11 but they teach about SEO, specifically SEO, for e-commerce.
    0:06:15 And now we’re not competitors so they don’t have to worry about me trying to siphon their audience
    0:06:18 for my business and I don’t have to worry about the same thing from them
    0:06:22 so we can actually form a good partnership, do a good workshop and cheer each other on
    0:06:26 instead of feeling like we have to compete because our target audience is the same.
    0:06:29 They’re also providing SMS and email marketing services.
    0:06:33 Like, why do we want to put this guy in front of our email list in front of our audience?
    0:06:36 But that makes total sense. I remember Joshua Lysik.
    0:06:40 We did an episode on the OPA plan, other people’s audiences where he was doing these
    0:06:44 in-person virtual lunch and learns for his copywriting business
    0:06:47 or web design, web development business back in the day.
    0:06:50 And it was like, I target kind of local small business owners
    0:06:54 so he would reach out to accounting offices, legal offices in his town
    0:06:56 and bring people in that way.
    0:07:01 It’s like, these companies don’t offer what I do but their customers need this
    0:07:03 or their customers might want to learn this.
    0:07:07 And so he follows kind of same strategy as on an in-person basis.
    0:07:09 But let’s say, okay, now you have your list.
    0:07:13 I like this, software companies, bloggers, online influencers, even YouTubers,
    0:07:18 people who may have a list with some of your target customers on it,
    0:07:20 even other agencies if they’re not direct competitors.
    0:07:22 What’s the initial outreach?
    0:07:26 Like, hey, I’m just curious to see what that email or direct message might look like.
    0:07:29 Definitely varies. It comes down to a few key things.
    0:07:33 One thing that I believe is that there’s no such thing as a good cold email.
    0:07:35 You can read all kinds of blog posts or watch YouTube videos
    0:07:37 on how to write the perfect cold email.
    0:07:39 But I just don’t believe that even exists.
    0:07:42 Anything that feels cold is cold and doesn’t get open.
    0:07:45 The cold emails that do well are actually warm emails.
    0:07:48 So if it’s someone you don’t know, which in most cases it’s going to be,
    0:07:51 you have to find a way to make it feel warmer.
    0:07:57 So a good example of this is when you’re making your list of people to reach out to
    0:07:59 teach these workshops in front of their audience.
    0:08:03 Think about what services you’ve already used or what blogs you already read
    0:08:06 to stay on top of some of this stuff for yourself.
    0:08:09 And then that way, when you’re reaching out, you can say,
    0:08:12 “Hey, I listen to your podcast every week.
    0:08:14 I love it this last episode with so-and-so.”
    0:08:17 Really made me look at my business differently in this way and that way.
    0:08:19 And it really helped. And I just wanted to say thank you.
    0:08:24 So that’s a really easy way to give a compliment that’s genuine and authentic.
    0:08:27 But that just makes it feel warmer. It makes it feel like there’s some kind of connection.
    0:08:30 You know who they are even if they don’t know who you are yet.
    0:08:34 And that helps that opening line get read and the email continue to be read
    0:08:37 instead of it going straight into the trash.
    0:08:40 Right. I’m trying to think of cold emails that I get.
    0:08:43 And they do a good job of making it feel warmer.
    0:08:45 “Hey, Nick. Long time listener here.”
    0:08:46 Something like that.
    0:08:49 Yeah, that gets my attention versus some random…
    0:08:50 And now, of course, I’m going to get…
    0:08:53 That’s going to be the first line of every email that I get.
    0:08:55 Yeah, sorry.
    0:08:58 The other element here that might be worth looking into…
    0:09:00 And this is something that I try and do.
    0:09:04 If there’s a guest that I want to get on is looking for mutual connections.
    0:09:07 I said, “Hey, would you mind passing along an intro?”
    0:09:09 So through Facebook, through LinkedIn,
    0:09:14 you’re probably only one or two degrees of separation away from anybody.
    0:09:18 So I imagine that may be another way to make that introduction a little bit warmer.
    0:09:21 But what else do you have on this outreach and pitch part?
    0:09:23 That’s probably even better in most cases,
    0:09:27 is if you know somebody who can give an intro, kind of vouch for you.
    0:09:29 The other thing to think about is…
    0:09:32 I learned this from Noah Kagan and it just stuck with me.
    0:09:36 He said, “Always remember whiffed. What’s in it for them?”
    0:09:38 So I always think about that when I’m writing an email,
    0:09:41 is look at how many times you wrote “I” in your email.
    0:09:43 Like, how many sentences start with the word “I”?
    0:09:47 Like, “I listen to your podcast. I want to partner with you.
    0:09:50 I think that I will do a great job.”
    0:09:54 Your email is so focused on you that it’s not even providing any value
    0:09:56 to the person you’re trying to partner with.
    0:09:59 Because at the end of the day, if it’s not a win for you,
    0:10:02 a win for the partner and a win for their audience,
    0:10:05 then it’s a lose. It has to be a win-win-win.
    0:10:08 So focusing on what’s in it for them.
    0:10:10 And it doesn’t mean you can’t talk about yourself a little bit
    0:10:12 because you need to to establish some credibility
    0:10:15 and you need to say, “I’m reaching out because…”
    0:10:19 You know, there’s this specific topic that I know a lot about
    0:10:22 and, you know, I get really good results for our clients
    0:10:24 and I think that your audience would get a ton out of this.
    0:10:27 So, like, that’s the value then is I think your audience
    0:10:30 would get a lot of value out of this because…
    0:10:33 And so always keep getting it there as fast as possible
    0:10:35 so that they start to think, you know,
    0:10:37 “Is this actually good for my audience?”
    0:10:40 And so if you can establish that it’s good for them and their audience,
    0:10:43 they’re a lot more likely to say yes,
    0:10:46 which is kind of the third and final part of cold emails,
    0:10:50 or I should say warm emails, is making it as easy as possible to say yes.
    0:10:52 If you have a specific pitch for them,
    0:10:55 break down exactly how it’s going to go.
    0:10:57 And in this case, workshops, you know, breaking down,
    0:10:59 you know, “I want to teach this workshop.
    0:11:01 Here are the topics that I want to cover.
    0:11:04 The way we can use my software, I already pay for it.
    0:11:05 You don’t have to pay for it.
    0:11:07 I will build the landing page.
    0:11:10 I will create email copy that I’ll send to you
    0:11:12 to send out to your audience so you don’t have to write it.
    0:11:14 You know, I’ll create a graphic and send it to you
    0:11:16 so you can post it on social media.
    0:11:18 Put things in there to assure them
    0:11:21 that this isn’t going to be a laborious project for them
    0:11:23 and that you’re going to handle all of the hard work.
    0:11:26 All they have to do is help you promote to their audience
    0:11:29 and get the pats on the back.
    0:11:31 Still to come in this episode,
    0:11:34 what Dustin calls the magic sauce for his business,
    0:11:36 how he structures his workshops,
    0:11:41 and the soft sell way he converts attendees into paying clients.
    0:11:46 That’s the sound of another sale on your online Shopify store.
    0:11:49 But did you know Shopify powers in-person selling too?
    0:11:50 It’s true.
    0:11:52 Shopify is the sound of selling everywhere,
    0:11:56 online, in-store, on social media, and beyond.
    0:12:00 Shopify POS is your command center for your retail store.
    0:12:02 That means you can accept payments, manage inventory,
    0:12:06 and track every sale across your business in one place.
    0:12:08 With Shopify, you get a powerhouse selling partner
    0:12:10 that helps you drive store traffic
    0:12:13 with plug-and-play tools built for marketing campaigns
    0:12:15 from TikTok to Instagram and beyond.
    0:12:17 You can take payments by smartphone,
    0:12:20 transform your tablet into a point-of-sale system,
    0:12:23 or use Shopify’s POS Go mobile device
    0:12:25 for a battle-tested solution.
    0:12:27 Plus, Shopify’s award-winning help
    0:12:30 is there to support your success every step of the way.
    0:12:32 So do retail right with Shopify.
    0:12:35 Go ahead, sign up for a $1 per month trial period
    0:12:38 at Shopify.com/sidehustle.
    0:12:39 That’s all lowercase.
    0:12:42 Go to Shopify.com/sidehustle
    0:12:45 to take your retail business to the next level today.
    0:12:49 Shopify.com/sidehustle.
    0:12:52 Okay, do you ever get anybody coming back to you and say,
    0:12:56 “Yeah, that sounds good, but I want a 50% referral commission
    0:12:58 on anything you sell off the back end?”
    0:13:01 And you’re like, “Well, it’s an agency, so the margins.”
    0:13:04 It’s a little more tricky than a digital product.
    0:13:07 Do you get that kind of like, “Oh, I want a piece of the action?”
    0:13:08 Man, you know, it’s funny.
    0:13:11 I don’t think I’ve ever gotten someone reply with that,
    0:13:13 but that is something that I offer sometimes,
    0:13:16 depending on who I’m actually doing one next week,
    0:13:19 next Thursday, where we have an agreement
    0:13:21 of how much, you know, how we’ll split the commission.
    0:13:24 So like you said, it’s a fine line with margins on an agency.
    0:13:26 You can’t give away everything,
    0:13:28 or it’s not worth it, of course.
    0:13:30 But one thing that I do is I, like,
    0:13:32 I also have some digital products and stuff.
    0:13:35 So sometimes that’ll be a part of what the workshop is.
    0:13:37 In that case, if it’s a digital product,
    0:13:39 I mean, it’s pretty much 100% margin, right?
    0:13:42 So I can give them 50%, and that’s no problem at all to me.
    0:13:46 I’d much rather pay 50% of a $100 product
    0:13:48 for everything that’s sold
    0:13:51 to people that I never would have gotten in front of, to begin with,
    0:13:54 or I would have had to spend $99 to get in front of them
    0:13:56 to sell them a $100 product.
    0:13:59 It’s still a better deal than straight advertising.
    0:14:03 So on the agency side, what we do is a $500 referral.
    0:14:07 So if we get a client and they stick with us for at least three months,
    0:14:10 which everyone is contractually obligated to stick with us for at least three months,
    0:14:13 so that’s easy enough, then we pay out $500.
    0:14:17 That’s a nice way to push someone over the edge who isn’t quite sure,
    0:14:20 or maybe they have a really big audience and they have a tight calendar.
    0:14:23 That’s a nice way to kind of squeeze yourself into their calendar.
    0:14:24 Okay, that makes sense.
    0:14:27 So most people are not necessarily looking for that
    0:14:29 or asking for that upfront,
    0:14:33 but it can be a way to sweeten the deal.
    0:14:36 Especially, like you said, if they’re giving you a warm introduction to their audience
    0:14:39 and you’re making money off of that, then you make it a win for them.
    0:14:43 And we’ve talked about different strategic complementary partnerships.
    0:14:46 I think this is an interesting way to do that too.
    0:14:52 Anything else on the outreach in pitchfront that you have seen deliver success?
    0:14:55 One example is this isn’t necessarily a strategy to seek out
    0:14:58 because you can’t really, it’s kind of more of an inbound type of thing,
    0:15:02 but I recently had a software company set up a call with me
    0:15:08 to pitch me on using their software for my clients in the call.
    0:15:11 I guess just looking for opportunities to pitch also.
    0:15:15 So on the call, I said we actually already do have some clients that use your software.
    0:15:18 And the other ones, I will definitely put it in front of them
    0:15:20 and tell them the pros and cons of using it.
    0:15:23 What do you think about also doing a workshop in front of your audience?
    0:15:28 That was the fastest 2000 email subscribers I’ve ever gotten in my life.
    0:15:33 It was just from this software company that was pitching me,
    0:15:37 just being able to say, honestly, we already use you, so this is great.
    0:15:39 Let’s do something together.
    0:15:41 And it was able to give a lot of value back to them
    0:15:44 and teach their software to their customers.
    0:15:49 So looking for opportunities to pitch where it’s kind of a no brainer, yes.
    0:15:50 It really comes in handy.
    0:15:53 So keeping it top of mind and not always thinking just about,
    0:15:55 it’s not all about going straight for the sale.
    0:15:57 Sometimes it’s trying to do these workshops
    0:16:00 and keeping it top of mind how you can partner with different companies.
    0:16:03 Yeah, I like this a lot, especially the software angle.
    0:16:08 We’ve talked about the software with a service business model, business angle before.
    0:16:13 We’ve seen people do this with Asana and QuickBooks and Salesforce
    0:16:15 and your SEM rush and all these different ones.
    0:16:19 Where it’s like, if I’m an Atrus customer, for example, for SEO and keyword research,
    0:16:22 Atrus doesn’t have, at least to my knowledge,
    0:16:25 an in-house team where they’re like, we’ll just do it for you.
    0:16:28 So it’s like, that might be, if you’re an SEO service provider,
    0:16:32 if you’re an agency to reach out to them as just as an example to say,
    0:16:36 hey, I want to teach people how to use your software better.
    0:16:39 Or so, you know, here’s seven things you didn’t know you could do
    0:16:41 in this tool to skyrocket your thing.
    0:16:43 Because a certain percentage of that audience is going to be like,
    0:16:45 that sounds super cool.
    0:16:47 I just don’t have the time to do it myself.
    0:16:48 How could you do it for me?
    0:16:51 And that’s like your ideal customers are like this software company angle,
    0:16:56 like piggybacking on the popularity of an existing software and existing audience.
    0:17:00 In your email, you say, I’m going to make it as easy for them as possible to say,
    0:17:05 yes, we’ll use my hosting software, you use my landing page, anything like that.
    0:17:08 What does a tech stack look like today?
    0:17:12 What makes the most sense for you for email collection, for webinar hosting, all that stuff?
    0:17:14 For my website, I use Webflow.
    0:17:15 I used to use WordPress.
    0:17:16 I still really like WordPress.
    0:17:18 I think I have a couple of sites on WordPress.
    0:17:23 But Webflow has been really cool as far as being able to drag and drop design a little bit easier
    0:17:25 and make it look a little cleaner.
    0:17:27 So I’ve been enjoying using that.
    0:17:32 So I’ll pair that with ConvertKit is what I use for email capture, things like that.
    0:17:37 And obviously for the email marketing side of things, which ties into the workshops
    0:17:43 because in the workshops, there’s always a call to action for them to go opt into something.
    0:17:48 And then there’s drip campaigns that come after that to help me close sales that way.
    0:17:54 For the actual webinar, I use Webinar Ninja, which I’ve been really happy with so far.
    0:18:00 Competitive on their pricing and the streamability is really strong for the most part.
    0:18:04 And also when I build landing pages, I just use Webinar Ninja’s landing page
    0:18:08 for signing up for the workshops when it works really well.
    0:18:12 So they have good kind of automated emails after people register.
    0:18:17 It sends them a sequence of emails like you’re registered, here’s your information, all that kind of stuff.
    0:18:21 And I like that you can go in and edit those and you can add more or subtract.
    0:18:26 So they have a lot of Webinar Ninja does a good job of getting you 90% of the way there.
    0:18:31 And then you can kind of just add in the extra little parts that you want to make it personal for you and your business.
    0:18:37 Okay. So the process flow would be this outreach and pitch like, hey, I’d like to host this workshop.
    0:18:42 Here’s the email copy to send people out to all build the landing page.
    0:18:47 People register for it on that landing page after your partner sends out that email.
    0:18:50 And it’s like, here’s the date and time enter your email to register.
    0:18:57 At least for my business, that’s the magic sauce is if you can be the one who hosts the workshop yourself
    0:19:00 using your software and having it go to your email list.
    0:19:08 That’s not always the case, especially with bigger brands or bigger software companies who don’t want you to have their customer data,
    0:19:15 which I can understand a lot of software companies like really big ones, they already do workshops like they’ll do monthly workshops.
    0:19:17 So they kind of already have a system for it.
    0:19:21 So you’re really just pitching yourself to be one of those guest workshop people.
    0:19:28 They already have it all figured out and that’s great too, because you can go on there and still get in front of thousands of people in an hour.
    0:19:37 But I really like when I can control the setup process and collect those emails because then even the people who,
    0:19:43 let’s say you get in front of 300 people that signed up for the webinar and maybe you get one sale out of it.
    0:19:44 That’s still awesome.
    0:19:50 But what’s more awesome is now you have 299 other email addresses that you can put into a drip campaign.
    0:19:57 I’m explaining more about your business or teaching them so that they become more comfortable with you for when they are ready to work with you.
    0:20:00 They work with somebody, they pick you, you can put them in your newsletter.
    0:20:04 So it’s just establishing that relationship even stronger.
    0:20:07 So if you can set it up yourself, it’s great.
    0:20:13 And a lot of companies appreciate it because they might not have the internal teams to even know how to do that.
    0:20:15 Maybe they’ve never done a webinar in their life.
    0:20:17 So it seems daunting.
    0:20:22 So to come in and say, “Don’t worry, I’ll handle all the tech,” is really a big win for a lot of brands.
    0:20:30 Yeah, totally. That would be me. I don’t know if I’ve been on the hosting side of a webinar co-hosted lots, but never been the one to fully run and set up the whole thing.
    0:20:36 Going back, especially the company that already has, “Oh, we do a monthly webinar for our customers already.”
    0:20:37 That’s a fantastic target.
    0:20:41 And Tailwind comes to mind as a Pinterest scheduling software.
    0:20:44 You have some killer Pinterest strategy that might be worthy of sharing.
    0:20:50 Or you’re like, “Here’s how to design eye-catching video pins in Canva,” or something like that might be compelling for them.
    0:20:53 Active Campaign comes to mind as well.
    0:20:57 Here’s the crazy, simple sales funnel that works for me in Active Campaign.
    0:21:06 I don’t know. Maybe they’re already doing this, and it’s easier to insert yourself into their existing process rather than have them create a new process for you or do this totally one-off thing.
    0:21:16 So that was Webflow, Drag and Drop, Website Builder, ConvertKit for the email capture, WebinarNinja for the hosting and scheduling of the workshop itself.
    0:21:19 Any other must-have tools for you to make this happen?
    0:21:20 A couple more I was thinking about.
    0:21:23 One is just something like Keynote or Google Slides or PowerPoint, whatever.
    0:21:25 It’s not something to make some slides.
    0:21:28 I just find it easier to teach that way on the workshops.
    0:21:37 But then for the outreach part, sometimes you can identify easily what company you want to partner with or pitch for doing a workshop, but you can’t find the right person.
    0:21:38 And so that comes up a lot.
    0:21:47 It’s like, “I know I want to partner with Clavio. It’s a big company. I can’t just email their CEO or founder. It’s not going to work.”
    0:21:50 So a tool that I like to use is called Hunter.io.
    0:21:53 You can create a free account and it does plenty, in my opinion.
    0:21:56 I don’t even know what their paid one does, but anyway, I use the free one.
    0:22:08 And you can just type in any URL and they will scrape the internet and see what email addresses are set up for that and give you a list of their titles if they can find it.
    0:22:12 It’ll say, “Director of Marketing is this person and here’s their email address.”
    0:22:19 If they can’t find that detailed information, they will help you figure out how to guess the person’s…
    0:22:23 Maybe they can find the people’s names, but they’re not 100% sure on what the email is.
    0:22:29 They’ll say, “Well, this is their name and we think it’s firstname.lastname at whatever…”
    0:22:32 Yeah, at the company, as the common email structure at this company.
    0:22:33 Okay.
    0:22:34 Right. So it helps you guess.
    0:22:41 And then you can just go on LinkedIn and find who the active director of marketing or whoever is, director of content, something like that.
    0:22:46 And then now you have their name, you have the email structure, so you can just guess their email accurately.
    0:22:53 I mean, that’s been really, really useful because trying to go through info at or something like that or a contact form, you’re never going to get there.
    0:22:54 Yeah, you’re not going to get anywhere.
    0:22:55 That’s actually really helpful.
    0:23:00 I remember this was like long ago in the SideHustle show archives.
    0:23:03 It was like, I was trying to figure out how to get sponsors for the show.
    0:23:08 And so my genius idea was to have a virtual assistant go through other business shows.
    0:23:12 They made this big list of companies that were already advertising.
    0:23:16 And I picked the five or six that I liked and thought would be a good fit.
    0:23:21 And from there, the process kind of stalled out because I couldn’t find the right decision makers at these companies.
    0:23:29 And occasionally you’d get a reply back of like, “Well, you know, we buy through this agency or it was much more difficult than I thought I was a genius.”
    0:23:32 Like, “Oh, this is going to be a fantastic way to sell some ad spots.”
    0:23:38 But it’s a really important point is it’s one thing to come up with your target list, your dream 100 list, so to speak.
    0:23:45 But another thing to find the person who has the authority to say yes, like how to find the right decision maker at that place.
    0:23:48 So hunter.io, cool resource to check out there.
    0:23:50 Anything else on the tech and tools front?
    0:23:51 Nope, that’s it.
    0:23:52 That’s what I use.
    0:24:06 I’m curious about the webinar structure or if there’s any resources to learn what makes a good presentation in terms of what’s five minutes of intro and 45 minutes of educational content and 10 minutes of call to action.
    0:24:08 Like, what kind of structure have you found to work best?
    0:24:15 What’s worked best for me has been, well, first of all, focusing on making it a workshop and not a webinar.
    0:24:26 And I mean, essentially, it’s the same thing, but the mentality of a webinar is usually like, “I’m going to use this workaround way to try to pitch people to work with me or buy my thing.”
    0:24:28 It can work, sure, but…
    0:24:30 Do you think marketers have just ruined the term?
    0:24:31 Like, marketers have ruined…
    0:24:32 Yeah, absolutely.
    0:24:33 Marketers ruin everything.
    0:24:35 And I know because I am one.
    0:24:41 It’s like anything that’s good and pure gets distorted as fast as possible.
    0:24:43 Now it’s not even a workshop.
    0:24:45 Now it’s like masterclass is like the next one.
    0:24:46 Yeah.
    0:24:47 No, that’s funny.
    0:24:49 I don’t even call my courses courses anymore.
    0:24:52 I started calling them either masterclasses or I’ll call them like a mini course.
    0:24:57 Like I’m trying to like find new terms so people don’t have these like weird associations from the past.
    0:24:58 Yeah.
    0:25:07 So I think of them as workshops and I pitched them as workshops and all of the verbiage leading up to it is saying your free online workshop is starting like things like that.
    0:25:15 And that bleeds into the content of it as well because the goal is to make sure they can learn something that they can apply immediately after they’re done.
    0:25:20 Where a lot of content dies is when it’s too much all at once.
    0:25:27 And someone has to try to absorb what you’re telling them and you’re telling them 10 different things and they have to try to apply it to their business in their head.
    0:25:31 And then they have to try to figure out how to do all 10 things and then they get the results.
    0:25:40 But in this case, I like to just teach them something they can actually go use because I find the best clients come from people who are willing to take action on advice.
    0:25:43 So it’s almost like a good filter for finding the right clients.
    0:25:47 So structure wise, I try not to go over an hour.
    0:25:52 Typically what I’ll do is about it ends up being like maybe six or seven minutes of an intro.
    0:25:55 I’ll start with here’s what we’re going to cover.
    0:26:01 I’ll tell them this is a workshop, not something to passively watch and I’ll tell them I want them to take notes.
    0:26:08 I’ll tell them that I’ll send them the replay afterward, but I want them to take notes and I want them to write down questions because we’re going to do Q&A at the end.
    0:26:12 So I make it very much feel like this is a workshop where you’re doing something right now.
    0:26:15 You’re not just half listening while you’re making dinner or something.
    0:26:17 I want them to be engaged.
    0:26:26 And so about five or six minutes of intro and then we’ll go into teaching and I’ll typically try to start with here’s the common problem.
    0:26:28 Here’s why it’s a problem.
    0:26:33 If you continue to try to do it the way you’re doing it, here’s what you’ll be missing out on.
    0:26:37 Here’s how most people try to solve this problem, but here’s why that doesn’t work.
    0:26:40 Then here’s the actual solution of what you should do.
    0:26:43 And so that’s kind of the order that I try to keep it as far as how to teach.
    0:26:49 And then I try to show as many screenshots as possible if it’s something technical, because again, you know, I’m going to give them this recording.
    0:26:51 So I can remind them, here’s a visual.
    0:26:52 You’re going to have this.
    0:26:54 So don’t worry if you’re not absorbing it right now.
    0:26:57 Focus on writing what makes sense to you.
    0:26:59 I ask a lot of questions too.
    0:27:04 I try to ask a question at least every three slides and I ask them to kind of respond in the chat.
    0:27:11 One, it helps me when I’m teaching because you kind of feel like you’re in a silo because nobody else can, you’re not seeing any other faces.
    0:27:13 You’re not hearing anybody else.
    0:27:16 If no one’s engaging at all, you just feel like you’re talking to a wall.
    0:27:20 When really people are probably really engaged and interested, but you just don’t know that.
    0:27:32 So I try to ask questions every three slides or so, and it keeps them engaged and it can help me kind of redirect if I’m getting too technical on accident or something I said didn’t make sense.
    0:27:46 I can kind of ear note those questions for the Q&A section and then toward the end, every workshop I do, I give a link to some kind of bonus resource that’s directly related to how they can go do this thing right after we get off.
    0:27:49 I taught one recently on abandon cart sequences.
    0:27:54 So it was how to set up your abandon cart sequence in 30 minutes or less.
    0:27:57 And so it’s a really specific thing we’re trying to solve.
    0:28:00 It’s not a super big trying to teach them everything at once.
    0:28:02 It’s one specific thing.
    0:28:10 And so the bonus resource was email scripts that they could just copy and paste into their email provider so that the work was done for them already.
    0:28:14 And they could just put it in there, push, go and watch the results come in.
    0:28:20 That’s kind of the approach I take there is I don’t typically pitch services on these workshops.
    0:28:26 My goal is to teach them something useful they can use immediately and then capture their email.
    0:28:37 Those are my two goals because if I capture their email, then they go into a drip sequence for me to pitch them services later after they’ve kind of already got their feet wet and seeing that it works.
    0:28:39 If they try what I say, it’ll work.
    0:28:42 In the case where you didn’t collect it up front through the invite.
    0:28:43 Right.
    0:28:46 So yeah, if it’s already collected, then I still do the bonus thing just because it’s helpful.
    0:28:51 Yeah, really the process doesn’t change whether I collected their emails, you know, whether I hosted it or I didn’t.
    0:28:56 The process stays the same, but the results are just usually bigger if I can collect the email list on top of it.
    0:28:57 This is cool.
    0:29:06 And this is kind of in contrast to a Russell Brunson expert secrets style webinar with, you know, here are the limiting beliefs that we have to overcome.
    0:29:09 It’s like, no, here’s the problem, the technical problem you’re facing in your business.
    0:29:11 Here’s why what you’re doing is not working.
    0:29:13 Here’s the trend line of you keep doing what you’re doing.
    0:29:16 But the good news is, oh, by the way, you can do it yourself.
    0:29:19 Here’s how our clients are getting it done or here’s how we’re doing it for clients.
    0:29:26 I imagine kind of working in those type of soft cells, like just letting people know that it is something that you do versus by my thing.
    0:29:30 We don’t buy my $10,000 thing at the end of the lesson here.
    0:29:36 I still do workshops or webinars where I’ll pitch a $99 product or something or even a couple hundred bucks.
    0:29:43 But I find it, I don’t think I’ve ever closed anything over 1500 bucks using the webinar in my life.
    0:29:54 So trying to pitch agency services that are in the three to five thousand a month range over a webinar is a pretty tough pitch in 45 minutes to an hour.
    0:30:01 But if I can be really helpful, yeah, you know, in the beginning when I’m talking about who I am so that they, my favorite line is just to tell them like,
    0:30:05 you shouldn’t believe everything you hear on the internet because anyone can lie over the internet.
    0:30:07 So don’t take my word for it.
    0:30:09 Just like, these are the clients we’ve worked with.
    0:30:11 Here are the results we’ve gotten for them.
    0:30:14 Now, you know, you can probably trust me and now let’s move on.
    0:30:23 And it kind of helps establish early that I’m not trying to calm them and that I recognize there’s a little bit of trust imbalance that we’re going to have to work through.
    0:30:29 But that I have actual expertise and I’ve worked with real clients and that lets them know that they can work with me as well if they choose to do so.
    0:30:36 But it’s in a way, like you said, where it’s a little bit more of a soft approach to where I can focus on teaching them.
    0:30:44 Because at the end of the day, trying to do services for people, a good service solves one of three problems or ideally multiple of these three problems,
    0:30:52 which is you’re either saving them time, you’re saving them money or making them money, or you’re improving the quality of their life in some way.
    0:30:58 In this case, you’re not going to ruin your chances of closing a client if you teach them how to do one thing on their own.
    0:31:01 And if they can do the one thing on their own, then they don’t need to hire you anyway.
    0:31:02 It’s not a good fit.
    0:31:10 So getting that out of my head early was important of not worrying if I was going to disqualify myself by teaching someone to do something themselves.
    0:31:20 Because chances are they’re either going to be overwhelmed by it anyway and want help, or they are very capable and can do it themselves in which case, wonderful, great, help somebody today.
    0:31:26 Or they’re going to, maybe they do understand how to do it, they just don’t have the time to do it, so they’ll hire.
    0:31:31 There’s really no reason to not just full-on teach everything you can, teach everything you know.
    0:31:38 It’s only going to build the confidence of people around you that you are the right person to hire for current or future projects.
    0:31:40 Yeah, this is a list-building play.
    0:31:44 This is a credibility and authority-building play, trust-building play.
    0:31:49 I think there’s a lot to this that has really worked out well in your favor.
    0:31:55 More with Dustin in just a moment, including overcoming the imposter syndrome of actually hosting your first workshop.
    0:32:04 What happened when his worst-case scenario moment came true and how he successfully transitions educational viewers into paying customers right after this?
    0:32:08 Tell me about getting psyched up before doing the first one.
    0:32:12 I’m just like, “Oh, what am I going to talk about? Who am I to teach this stuff?”
    0:32:17 I imagine some people are like, “This all sounds cool, but they’re still facing some of that imposter syndrome.”
    0:32:21 I always get a little bit nervous. I feel like if you’re not a little nervous, you probably don’t care.
    0:32:26 Nerves are an okay signal, but for me, what helps is just being prepared.
    0:32:29 The more prepared you are with your slides and your material,
    0:32:33 and ultimately, as long as you know what you’re talking about, which presumably you do,
    0:32:36 if you have services for somebody that you’re going to do for them,
    0:32:40 then you don’t have too much to worry about because this is kind of your zone.
    0:32:44 If people are showing up to your workshop and they know what the topic is ahead of time,
    0:32:48 so if they’re showing up for it, it’s because your name was already on the landing page.
    0:32:54 They know that you are going to teach them this thing, and you can assume they don’t know how to do that thing yet.
    0:33:00 That helps me at least to remember that I don’t have to be an expert at everything for everyone,
    0:33:05 but to these people who signed up, I’m an expert to them on this one thing.
    0:33:11 I can let go of the ego of assuming I have to be an expert at everything to teach anything.
    0:33:14 I was going to say, even if they do end up taking action,
    0:33:19 like you said, maybe I’d be afraid of, well, if I show people how to do it themselves,
    0:33:23 nobody’s going to hire me, but like you said, going back to your abandoned cart example,
    0:33:29 if you can deliver some wins on this one very specific email process, email sequence,
    0:33:31 and they see some positive results from that,
    0:33:35 it’s like, well, maybe we ought to get back in touch for what else have you got?
    0:33:38 What else have you got for the rest of these emails that we should be sending?
    0:33:40 How do we collect more, all this stuff?
    0:33:46 Are there any surprises, mistakes, disasters along the way outside of the ever-present technical problems with webinars?
    0:33:48 Can anybody hear me type of stuff?
    0:33:50 Oh yeah, I had a bad one.
    0:33:55 I had a bad one about, it was really kind of a worst case scenario, which was good though, I got through it.
    0:33:59 But about, I think it was like three months ago, I was doing, it was definitely one of the bigger,
    0:34:01 if not the biggest one I’ve ever done.
    0:34:05 I think there were 11 or 1200 people on live with me.
    0:34:09 That was a bit of a freak out moment just for a second because I was looking at the screen
    0:34:14 and I was like, I know that the process is exactly the same, whether there’s one person over there or like a million.
    0:34:19 It doesn’t really matter, but there’s a lot of people staring at me right now.
    0:34:24 And so that was a little bit of a panic moment, but got past that and I was like, it’s going to go fine.
    0:34:27 I’m prepared, let’s go, got into it, it was going great.
    0:34:30 And then there was one part where the brand that I was partnering with,
    0:34:36 they were asking me to do like a live screen share and walk through how to use part of their tool.
    0:34:41 And I had practiced and it worked fine, but then of course, when it was with a thousand people watching,
    0:34:46 as soon as I hit the screen share button, the whole thing crashed.
    0:34:49 And I couldn’t see anything, nobody could see me.
    0:34:51 I didn’t know if people could hear me still or not.
    0:34:57 And then I was getting emails and texts from the brand, from their director of marketing and he was freaking out.
    0:34:58 Dude, where did you go?
    0:35:00 He’s like, we can’t see, we can’t hear you, where are you?
    0:35:01 Everyone’s leaving.
    0:35:03 I was like, I don’t know how to tell you.
    0:35:09 So I just rebooted my computer, took like six or seven minutes, which is kind of an eternity when you’re on a webinar.
    0:35:13 And like, of course, you assume people will drop out, but got back in.
    0:35:22 And to my surprise, I think only about something like 7% of people left and everyone else stayed and waited,
    0:35:24 which I thought was super cool.
    0:35:27 It made me feel good about the value being provided there.
    0:35:29 But that was a pretty big blunder.
    0:35:32 I don’t think the brand appreciating that one very much.
    0:35:37 Yeah, those types of technical challenges, especially when you got a bunch of people staring at you in the face.
    0:35:38 That’s one reason I like podcasting.
    0:35:39 Hey, we’re not live.
    0:35:40 We can edit it.
    0:35:43 In fact, if the call drops out, nobody has to know.
    0:35:47 Yeah, it’s a whole new skill set to deliver anything live.
    0:35:48 This has been awesome.
    0:35:50 I really appreciate you sharing kind of that stuff.
    0:35:56 And it sounds like just kind of leaving it with the call to action being like, hey, make sure to go grab this bonus versus press hard.
    0:35:58 I only have three clients available for next month.
    0:36:00 Like, you know, make sure you sign up here.
    0:36:01 Is that correct?
    0:36:08 Yeah, and really just making sure that that bonus is in good alignment with the service that you offer and with what you taught during that workshop.
    0:36:15 It just helps keep that cohesiveness together so people know what your niche is and they know that they’re a good fit for you.
    0:36:23 After the webinar, you’re sending out the replay and people who did opt in are added to kind of a welcome onboarding sequence.
    0:36:30 Can you give us just a brief sense of what type of messages you’re sending those people after attending?
    0:36:32 It’s really at least the one that I use.
    0:36:33 It’s not super long.
    0:36:42 I think it’s four emails, but it really is just doubling down on what we talked about on the workshop and reminding them like actually go use that resource.
    0:36:51 And that’s a good place to work in like our clients at put a link to your website, use this and got these results in the last few months.
    0:36:52 Like it’ll work for you too.
    0:36:57 So kind of using a reminder method there of like we do this for clients.
    0:37:01 It will work for you whether you hire us or not, but you can certainly hire us.
    0:37:08 I use a very teaching heavy focus, but then making sure to have like a or this is how I do it.
    0:37:16 I guess I should say I have my main call to action on sales type drip emails is just to go book an exploration call.
    0:37:18 I use tidy Cal for mine.
    0:37:20 There’s a bunch of them out there Cal and Lee.
    0:37:21 What’s the one that you use?
    0:37:27 I really liked it when I use it schedule once I bought tidy Cal because it was $15 AppSumo lifetime deal.
    0:37:29 I just haven’t like fully switched over to it.
    0:37:30 Yeah, yeah, it’s pretty good.
    0:37:32 Yeah, I like the one that you use too.
    0:37:42 But the main thing with that too is making sure people feel because just remember how many pitches people get like business owners get pitched stuff all the time from people trying to sell them on stuff.
    0:37:49 So if you can be the person that’s there to be helpful and there to be a resource, you’re much more likely to get the win with that client.
    0:37:52 I have a short questionnaire that they fill out just to make sure it’s the right fit.
    0:37:55 And that all just happens straight through tidy Cal when they’re signing up.
    0:38:00 It just asks them, you understand this is a 3000 plus dollar service.
    0:38:03 Like in theory, if this was a good fit, do you have the budget for that?
    0:38:04 Yes or no.
    0:38:08 It kind of just helps the process move along a better and it shows transparency.
    0:38:13 And then I like to have something in there that says, you know, just so you know, we’ll talk about your business.
    0:38:17 No matter what, you’re going to leave with some wins that you can go back and apply.
    0:38:20 If it’s not a right fit, I will tell you that it’s not a right fit.
    0:38:22 But if it is, I’ll tell you that it is.
    0:38:24 And then you have to stick true to that.
    0:38:30 You have to actually be willing to tell a potential client that it’s a bad fit and that they shouldn’t work with you.
    0:38:33 And that’s how you keep credibility in an industry.
    0:38:39 Yeah. Okay. I like that using that, you know, just blog and that’s always a frustration point for companies.
    0:38:40 You’re just researching.
    0:38:43 If you’re not putting your pricing on the website, fine.
    0:38:47 But I don’t also want to waste your time if it’s just like you’re completely out of my league.
    0:38:48 Well, what’s your budget?
    0:38:49 That’s like my least favorite question.
    0:38:50 What’s your budget?
    0:38:52 Like, no, no, no, don’t answer that.
    0:39:01 As a trap because there should at least be a range because typically what people will do is what they’re really wondering is how much can I get away with charging you.
    0:39:06 A service in theory, if it’s a well thought out service, should have some kind of standard pricing model.
    0:39:11 Even if it’s percent based, you can say our pricing is 10% of the revenue we make for you or something like that.
    0:39:16 I like to be upfront about it because it saves me time from not talking on the phone with people who aren’t a good fit.
    0:39:20 It saves them time from not trying to talk to me when it’s not a right fit.
    0:39:25 So just trying to be a, I don’t know, be a good of a human as you can be while you’re doing business, you know.
    0:39:28 Did you do anything on a performance basis like that, 10% of revenue?
    0:39:38 I don’t currently, I did though, it really saved the agency in a lot of ways when COVID first hit because there were, we lost about 50% of our client revenue in across two weeks.
    0:39:40 And so that was pretty intense.
    0:39:50 And so immediately I flipped it to a percent based model when reaching out to clients because it gave them the security that they’re not going to have to pay a big fee if they’re not getting any results.
    0:39:54 And during a time like a crisis like that, it was really helpful.
    0:40:01 And then that comes back to making sure everything’s a good fit, especially doing percent based model because you can get the bad end of the deal on that pretty quick.
    0:40:09 So what I did that was useful is I did for email marketing, I would say you’re going to pay us 10% of the revenue we make for you.
    0:40:16 That’s attributed to email, but there’s a $1,000 minimum or there’s a $1,500 minimum, or I don’t remember exactly what I was.
    0:40:17 I think it was 1500.
    0:40:24 That’s probably you give a baseline so they know, okay, this is the minimum I’ll pay, but it’s also the most I’ll pay if the results aren’t there.
    0:40:36 So it can be useful, I think, especially if you’re trying to get in the door with a new client or maybe a client that’s not quite at the level to pay a higher retainer and you can kind of work them up to that and you have the space on your roster for that.
    0:40:37 It can be pretty useful.
    0:40:40 I think it’s really compelling from a client perspective.
    0:40:51 When I’ve seen people do it with Facebook ads or something where it was like, just pay us a percentage of what you make off the ad and then there’s a whole issue of tracking and attribution and everything that goes into that.
    0:41:04 But it’s from the client side, it says, okay, you’re willing to put some skin in the game, so to speak, and say, look, we trust our process, we know you’re going to make money, and that’s why we only are going to make a fee based on if you win, we win kind of a thing.
    0:41:13 Dustin, this has been awesome. So this is at jumpxmarketing.com. You can check out the agency over there. What’s next for you? What’s got you excited this year?
    0:41:23 I’m just really focusing on helping more young brands, people with side hustles. I really think, I mean, just looking at the statistics, e-commerce is just exploding.
    0:41:40 I think in the next four to five years, personal blogs were in like 2013, 2014, where it started to feel normal for people to have those. I think we’re going to start seeing in a few years, most people have some kind of e-commerce store on the side where maybe they sell their favorite items that they use.
    0:41:51 There’s a lot of different things happening now where you don’t actually have to own, you know, you can do drop shipping now, or you can do partnership deals where you’re just selling other people’s things on your site directly for them and taking an affiliate cut.
    0:41:57 So I think we’re going to start seeing a lot more smaller e-commerce brands start out and they’re going to be really low risk.
    0:42:04 And I’m really excited about that for entrepreneurs who are just getting started because the more of the risk you can take out, the more fun it gets.
    0:42:14 I like it. Sounds like a great mission and excited to see where that one goes. Dustin, let’s wrap this thing up with your number one tip for side-hustlation 2021 edition.
    0:42:21 This has been my theme for the past few months is just shoot your shot. We hold ourselves back a lot when we say no for other people.
    0:42:33 So if you have historically been afraid to pitch ideas to other brands or to try to partner with people or do things with influencers, whatever it is, if you’ve or even reaching out to a client, you know, it’d be a perfect fit.
    0:42:40 But you felt a little bit afraid to reach out and get that failure to shoot your shot. You never know who’s going to say yes or no.
    0:42:48 Most people are going to say no. So just know that and no, it’s not a direct reflection on you. It’s just not the right fit at the right time.
    0:42:58 So shoot your shot, launch, get started and learn as you go because that’s really the only way to improve is to get started so that you can start learning.
    0:43:02 It’s so true and very similar to 2017’s advice. I had to go look this up.
    0:43:10 The number one tip from back then was give yourself permission to take action. So interesting to see that, you know, not a lot has changed on that front.
    0:43:16 You got to get out there. You got to get started. You got to put something out into the world and see what kind of reaction it gets.
    0:43:22 So Dustin, really appreciate you joining me again. We’ll have to do it again in another four years and see where you’re at.
    0:43:24 Absolutely. Thanks, Nick. I appreciate it.
    0:43:26 You bet. We’ll catch up soon.
    0:43:35 Just try to be a good human of all the actionable advice that Dustin just dropped.
    0:43:40 That’s the bit that stood out to me because that’s an almost daily conversation I have with my kids.
    0:43:47 Let’s just try to be good humans to each other. Be helpful, be kind, be respectful. Stop kicking your brother in the neck.
    0:43:54 This is an episode I know I’ll be referring back to you for years because it’s so applicable to a ton of different businesses.
    0:44:01 How do I get clients? That’s a question that every entrepreneur asks themselves and there are lots of ways to do it.
    0:44:08 But I really like Dustin’s approach here of being of service first and seeking out these win-win-win relationships.
    0:44:15 If you’re thinking the virtual workshop strategy is worth a shot in your business, I put together a free cheat sheet to help you get organized
    0:44:20 and keep track of all the steps at sidehustlenation.com/dustin2.
    0:44:29 Once again, that’s at sidehustlenation.com/dustin2dustin and the number two to grab that free partner workshop cheat sheet.
    0:44:34 Big thanks to Dustin for sharing his insight. That’s it for me. Thank you so much for tuning in.
    0:44:37 Until next time, let’s go out there and make something happen.
    0:44:41 And I’ll catch you in the next edition of the Side Hustle Show. I’ll see you then. Hustle on.
    0:44:43 on.

    One challenge that most new businesses face is the awareness problem – nobody knows you exist.

    To help erase this problem, I’ve invited Dustin Lien from JumpXmarketing.com back on the show.

    Dustin first appeared on episode 251 back in 2017. Back then, he was just ramping up JumpX after shutting down his own physical product business.

    Since then he’s grown it into a 6-figure operation and built it in such a way that it only requires part-time attention.

    What’s been his key driver?

    Partner workshops, essentially virtual lunch-and-learn sessions where he can showcase his expertise and build his client roster without ads or bidding for work.

    This works in just about any niche and in this episode, Dustin breaks down his exact process so you can go out and apply it in your own business.

    Tune in to The Side Hustle Show interview to learn:

    • Dustin’s fast-track strategy to getting in front of the right audience
    • how he quickly built his email list
    • his top tips for creating warm outreach emails and connecting with customers

    Full Show Notes: Webinar Marketing: How to Grow Your Agency w/ Virtual “Lunch and Learn” Events Live Workshops

    New to the Show? Get your personalized money-making playlist here!

    Sponsors:

    Shopify — Sign up for a $1 per month trial!

    Indeed – Start hiring NOW with a $75 sponsored job credit to upgrade your job post!

  • 621: How to Make Money on YouTube with AI Video Tools

    AI transcript
    0:00:06 A hundred bucks a day on YouTube with the help of AI video tools.
    0:00:07 What’s up?
    0:00:08 What’s up?
    0:00:09 Nick Loper here.
    0:00:11 Welcome to The Side Hustle Show where we can help you make day jobs optional.
    0:00:19 Since 2013, last year, we met Tony Eason-Dreides on the show, with episode 565 in the podcast
    0:00:20 feed.
    0:00:25 We did a really interesting episode on YouTube automation where the flow was kind of like
    0:00:26 this.
    0:00:32 A hopefully viral video topic, send it off to a researcher/scriptwriter who then passes
    0:00:37 that script off to a voiceover artist who hands that off to a video editor who pulls
    0:00:42 in all these clips and makes the video all in the name of hitting that viral YouTube
    0:00:47 lottery, playing the game of really planting a bunch of digital assets in the form of these
    0:00:52 videos, little money seeds to go out there and hopefully work for you, and then banking
    0:00:59 that enough of them hit to turn a profit on all that labor cost in the form of ad income.
    0:01:04 Well, what a difference a year makes because now we’ve got AI tools to assist in just about
    0:01:07 every step of that production process.
    0:01:12 Tony’s been on the front lines of these changes, so I wanted to have him back on to find out,
    0:01:16 first of all, is that a good thing for content creators, for YouTubers, but also Side Hustlers
    0:01:20 can make some money in this new AI-powered YouTube landscape.
    0:01:23 Last year, we talked about his interesting flow channel, where he had earned as much
    0:01:27 as $14,000 in a month during a viral spike.
    0:01:33 He’s since started several new channels, including Bible Blazing, a Bible-themed channel, which
    0:01:39 was able to get monetized in just 30 days, making up to $100 a day, built using AI.
    0:01:43 Now, we talked about the video production process.
    0:01:47 Where is the human element, where is your value at as the entrepreneur here?
    0:01:48 What stages are you involved with?
    0:01:49 Yeah.
    0:01:50 Thanks for having me back on, Nick.
    0:01:54 Yeah, a lot can happen in a year, and there was actually a huge spike of AI in the last
    0:01:55 quarter of 2023.
    0:02:01 There was a huge spike of AI, and now in 2024, it’s just rolling out very fast.
    0:02:07 So AI has made a significant change to the industry, and it’s been good and bad in terms
    0:02:12 of good for the creators, but a bit bad for the freelancers, because a lot of the freelancers
    0:02:14 have pretty much been replaced with AI.
    0:02:18 There’s someone I know who I’ve been talking to about AI, and he’s been telling me that
    0:02:22 AI is going to completely take over the film industry, even to the point where we’re going
    0:02:26 to have full-on movies and full-on videos, YouTube videos that are going to be completely
    0:02:30 made by AI 100%, because it’s not 100% there yet.
    0:02:36 We’re close to there, but yeah, it’s debatable as to whether there’ll be zero human aspect
    0:02:37 by the looks of how things are going.
    0:02:38 I think we’re heading there.
    0:02:44 What’s your role today, or is it still kind of this idea generation process?
    0:02:48 I mean, I imagine you could probably cue ChatGPT, like, “Give me some viral video ideas
    0:02:52 on the topic of Bible verses,” or something like for the case of this Bible channel.
    0:02:57 Yeah, so ChatGPT is really good for giving out video ideas, so you can just whack into
    0:03:03 ChatGPT, “Give me 10 video ideas of this,” or “Give me 10 variations of this viral video
    0:03:04 that went viral.”
    0:03:09 So let’s say you had a viral video that was talking about where was Jesus during Satan’s
    0:03:14 Rebellion, like, you can whack into ChatGPT and just put that title and just say, “Give
    0:03:21 me several different variations of that video that I can use as a benchmark to do more videos.”
    0:03:26 So essentially what you’ll do in YouTube Automation that you’ll still want to do now is that you
    0:03:30 would want to pivot off of an already existing viral video, so let’s give that example.
    0:03:35 So one of my viral videos on that channel was where was Jesus during Satan’s Rebellion.
    0:03:39 I created several different variations from that video that I’ve gone on to hit hundreds
    0:03:43 of thousands of views, so instead of where was Jesus during Satan’s Rebellion, I just
    0:03:48 changed up the word “Jesus” and I put the word “God,” so I did another video that
    0:03:51 talked about where was God during Satan’s Rebellion.
    0:03:54 Then another video where was Angel Michael during Satan’s Rebellion, and now we have
    0:03:58 a few more that’s going to be where was Gabriel during Satan’s Rebellion, so we change up
    0:04:03 that name, and yeah, we do use ChatGPT to help with the ideation.
    0:04:07 With YouTube, ideation is the most important facet of the YouTube game.
    0:04:11 Having a great idea is going to be the difference between you hitting like a million views and
    0:04:13 just like 10,000 views.
    0:04:16 That’s how powerful ideation is, so I don’t mess around with ideation.
    0:04:21 I make sure that even though AI comes up with suggestions, I always filter through that process.
    0:04:26 In terms of a lot of scripts that we do, AI has been a significant help, so a lot of
    0:04:31 script writers, the cheap script writers that did very basic scripts, they’re pretty much
    0:04:32 out of the water now.
    0:04:36 They’re pretty much out of the consideration to be hired, because ChatGPT’s pretty much
    0:04:38 replaced them.
    0:04:41 If you do want a premium script with a higher level, then you’re going to have to hire someone
    0:04:45 who’s experienced in that area and is really good.
    0:04:48 Those guys can’t get replaced because they’re really good at what they do.
    0:04:53 In terms of voiceovers, there is a website called 11Labs, and this website is phenomenal.
    0:04:58 You can have all these different variations of voices, and you would never tell that their
    0:05:00 AI generated.
    0:05:04 You’ll think they’re real voices, and we use them for our videos, and they work pretty
    0:05:05 fine.
    0:05:07 I’ve had comments, people say, “Who is that voiceover?”
    0:05:10 No one questions if it’s a real voice or if it’s an AI.
    0:05:15 For $20 a month, you can hire an AI voiceover, all these different variations of voices.
    0:05:19 You can even clone your own voice, so you can just get several minutes of your voice
    0:05:23 spoken, and then it will put together your voice and it will clone your voice.
    0:05:25 That’s another aspect to 11Labs.
    0:05:28 I recently had one of my voiceovers reach out to me.
    0:05:31 He used to charge a ridiculous price for his voiceovers.
    0:05:34 I can’t remember, but he was very, very expensive.
    0:05:39 He recently reached out to me, and he was offering to do work for me for a fraction of the price,
    0:05:42 because I’m assuming, he didn’t tell me this, but I’m assuming AI has literally just wiped
    0:05:44 out that industry.
    0:05:47 Not fully, but yeah, it’s been impacted heavily.
    0:05:50 Yeah, that’s frightening for anybody in that space.
    0:05:52 It’s frightening for me as a podcaster.
    0:05:56 How long before my job is obsolete and where somebody else can come through and do this,
    0:06:01 but you’re actually the second person to recommend 11Labs just in the past week or two, is one
    0:06:06 of my initiatives is trying to build out a library of video content, but the bottleneck
    0:06:12 is taking an existing blog post, in my case, this evergreen piece of content, this evergreen
    0:06:16 article, and trying to create a video version of that to try and double dip in SEO and serve
    0:06:21 a video-first audience versus an article-first audience, but the bottleneck is scripting
    0:06:27 it for YouTube and then doing that voiceover, where it’s like, okay, maybe I could clone
    0:06:32 my voice and it would do the voiceover part or accelerate that part of the process, even
    0:06:37 if it’s only a seven, eight minute video to narrate, but that was something that was
    0:06:38 on my radar.
    0:06:44 I want to go back to the idea generating phase or even the channel idea generating phase.
    0:06:48 Was there some level of research that led you to the Bible niche because interesting
    0:06:53 flow was in the mega construction project niche, we were talking about Dubai’s man-made
    0:06:55 islands and stuff like that?
    0:06:56 Yeah.
    0:07:00 So the way I got into the Bible group channel or the Bible blazing channel, I was scrolling
    0:07:04 through YouTube and I found a lot of this Bible content that was just going viral, and
    0:07:10 the content that was going viral was this AI and Bible stuff, and it was very basic,
    0:07:15 and I knew that with the use of AI, I can blow that channel out of the water and just
    0:07:16 get more views than them.
    0:07:23 I knew that I can leverage the already existing videos that have gone viral, and yeah, that’s
    0:07:24 pretty much what I did.
    0:07:27 I did similar videos and I used a lot of AI.
    0:07:31 We use an image generation tool called Mid Journey AI, which is one of the most popular
    0:07:35 AI softwares that is used for image generation.
    0:07:39 We use Mid Journey to generate the images and we put together the images with background
    0:07:40 music.
    0:07:41 It looks amazing.
    0:07:43 I mean, I was blown away when I first saw my video editor put it together.
    0:07:44 Yeah.
    0:07:45 It really looks good.
    0:07:51 So, Mid Journey is not just a thumbnail, it is creating internal images for the video
    0:07:52 itself.
    0:07:53 Yes.
    0:07:56 So, you can use Mid Journey AI not just to do thumbnails, you can use it for the video
    0:08:02 itself and you can use a tool called, I believe it’s called Runaway AI and it has a motion
    0:08:06 brush effect where you can actually select parts of the image where there’s motion.
    0:08:11 So, for example, if you have a man on a beach, you can use the motion brush tool to highlight
    0:08:15 only the sea to have a bit of motion.
    0:08:19 So, in the image, it will look like a moving image because the sea is moving, the waves
    0:08:21 are moving, but the man is standing still.
    0:08:27 So, AI has that effect as well and you have literally zero chance of being copyright claimed
    0:08:31 or copyright striked with AI because you’re generating the images.
    0:08:35 You’re paying for a subscription that’s generating the images so no one can say, “Hey, you used
    0:08:36 my content.
    0:08:39 I want a copyright claim on your channel or copyright strike on your channel.”
    0:08:40 There’s none of that.
    0:08:44 That still seems like a lot of effort to create hundreds of different scenes in an eight minute
    0:08:49 video individually or is it just looking at your script and auto-generating those?
    0:08:50 Yeah.
    0:08:55 That’s exactly what I thought, Nick, but you can whack in your script into the AI.
    0:08:59 With Me Journey, you would have to do it individually, but there is another software that my editor
    0:09:00 is using.
    0:09:02 He uses Runaway, but he uses another one.
    0:09:06 I keep forgetting the name of it, but he just puts the whole script and it generates loads
    0:09:08 of images.
    0:09:11 He can pick and choose which image he wants to use and that’s made it so much easier.
    0:09:13 I’ve been playing around with one called Pictori.
    0:09:15 There’s a few of these.
    0:09:20 I think I have a referral discount code for Pictori and it will take your voiceover, it
    0:09:26 will take your script, and it will pull together hundreds of stock footage type of clips related
    0:09:28 to what you’re talking about.
    0:09:34 I would say it’s 90%, 95% good and accurate and occasionally it’s something like, “Well,
    0:09:38 that was a different meaning of that word,” or something like it just looks a little bit
    0:09:43 off or random, but the time savings versus having somebody go and source all of those
    0:09:49 different clips and worry about the licenses for all that is like, “Oh, shoot, this is all
    0:09:50 taking care of it.
    0:09:53 It really, really accelerated a lot of videos that we’ve been trying to make where I’m doing
    0:09:54 the voiceover.
    0:09:55 It’s not AI yet.”
    0:10:01 But then we are using Pictori, the AI tool, to build out the rest of that video and hopefully
    0:10:06 make it something that’s visually compelling versus just me talking head and have maybe
    0:10:09 a couple graphics fly in or something like that.
    0:10:10 Yeah.
    0:10:13 Pictori’s really good and other AI softwares that we use.
    0:10:19 So we have ChatGPT for the script, then we have the voiceover, 11 labs, and you can pick
    0:10:21 male or female and it sounds real.
    0:10:26 You can even clone your own voice, image generation, yes, mid-journey, but we also use Dali, which
    0:10:30 is, if you have the paid version of ChatGPT, you can use Dali as well.
    0:10:34 So now you don’t even need to go on Dali, you can just write to ChatGPT.
    0:10:38 If you have the paid version, just write a prompt and it will come up with the image.
    0:10:42 Sometimes ChatGPT AI, the Dali is actually more accurate than mid-journey.
    0:10:49 In terms of the thumbnail, we use either ChatGPT, Dali, or mid-journey, and then you can just
    0:10:53 whack it into Canva to just add an arrow or add some text into it.
    0:10:59 Traditional faceless YouTube channels, you would need to have a scriptwriter, video editor,
    0:11:02 thumbnail designer, and then a voiceover.
    0:11:08 But now ChatGPT is your scriptwriter, 11 labs is your voiceover, you can have the editing
    0:11:13 with mid-journey, with different, to be honest, I haven’t fully outsourced that to AI.
    0:11:19 That’s one thing that AI has helped video editors to achieve better videos, however,
    0:11:22 it hasn’t fully taken over yet.
    0:11:26 Me personally, I don’t know how to video edit, so for me, I’ll be clueless, so that
    0:11:27 hasn’t been fully outsourced.
    0:11:32 I still pay a video editor for that, so that’s not in the hands of AI fully, even though
    0:11:34 they use AI to help them.
    0:11:38 AI can either help you or it can take away your job.
    0:11:43 You choose, in a sense, where you want AI to take your life, because I’ve had people
    0:11:48 who can’t really work anymore due to AI in their field, whether it be voice-overing or
    0:11:53 scriptwriting, but then I have my editor who has made so much money in the past few months
    0:11:54 of me paying him.
    0:11:56 I told him, I said, “Get rid of all your clients.
    0:11:57 I want you.”
    0:12:01 He does a phenomenal job, and yeah, I’ve paid him so much money in the past few months,
    0:12:04 and it’s helped him dramatically.
    0:12:08 Someone like him, someone like a video editor who knows how to utilize AI, for them, they’re
    0:12:14 going to benefit, but someone who pretty much does basic stuff, then yeah, AI is sadly coming
    0:12:18 for a lot of jobs that don’t require a lot of effort, if you know what I mean.
    0:12:25 Yeah, it’s similar to a Fiverr or an Upwork situation where everybody was kind of concerned
    0:12:30 about it’s a race to the bottom on pricing, and it’s like at the very bottom of the market,
    0:12:36 yes, but at people want a higher touch point or a higher level of service, there’s still
    0:12:40 room for humans, but the bar is getting higher and higher, unfortunately.
    0:12:43 Or fortunately, like you said, on the content creator side, it reduces that barrier, but
    0:12:48 on the service provider side, it’s just like, okay, I got to level up my game to be able
    0:12:50 to compete in this AI world.
    0:12:54 More with Tony in just a moment, including how he picks trending topics to create videos
    0:12:59 for, and how you might stand out as the cost of production gets lower and lower right after
    0:13:01 this.
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    0:13:49 way.
    0:13:51 So do retail right with Shopify.
    0:13:57 Go ahead, sign up for a $1 per month trial period at Shopify.com/SideHussell.
    0:13:58 That’s all lowercase.
    0:14:05 Go to Shopify.com/SideHussell to take your retail business to the next level today.
    0:14:08 Shopify.com/SideHussell.
    0:14:11 So the name of the game is still like trying to find a trending topic or a topic that’s
    0:14:16 gone viral and like trying to draft behind it or write on its coattails or piggyback
    0:14:19 on that popularity a little bit.
    0:14:23 It’s not necessarily like search and discovery where I’m, “Oh, the keyword tool said there
    0:14:27 was a search volume of 5,000 a month, so I’m going to go after that.”
    0:14:31 It’s like, “I really need hundreds of thousands of views for this to pay off.”
    0:14:37 In a sense, yes, there is vidIQ that you can use to see the search volume on certain keywords.
    0:14:41 VidIQ hasn’t been my best friend in terms of the keyword research side of things.
    0:14:47 The vidIQ have a really good aspect to their software which is called a views per hour feature.
    0:14:50 I think this can work even if you have the free version of vidIQ.
    0:14:54 It works like an extension, like a Chrome browser and it can actually show you how many views
    0:14:55 per hour a video is getting.
    0:14:59 So if you’re scrolling through YouTube and you want to know which video is popping off,
    0:15:02 sometimes the data alone with YouTube is not enough.
    0:15:06 So when you see like a video has gone viral in the past three weeks, yeah, that’s pretty
    0:15:07 much telling.
    0:15:11 If it got like a million views in three weeks, then you know it’s in the algorithm, then
    0:15:15 you can model after that video, but sometimes you don’t know when a video has fully died
    0:15:16 down.
    0:15:22 So if a video has got a million views in three weeks, but that video has died down in terms
    0:15:25 of views per hour, but you don’t know it, you’re just looking at what YouTube’s given
    0:15:26 you.
    0:15:30 The vidIQ software allows you to see the views per hour video is getting.
    0:15:35 So when I’m looking at trending topics, I always want to look at the views per hour that video
    0:15:36 is getting.
    0:15:39 So I know that the trend is still alive and I can do similar videos and benchmark off
    0:15:41 of that wave.
    0:15:46 And then when I’ve spotted a trend, I just double down on that trend and eventually it
    0:15:47 works.
    0:15:49 It’s not as hard as people make it out to be.
    0:15:54 What’s very important as well is understanding your audience and chat GPT can help a lot
    0:15:56 with understanding your audience.
    0:16:00 I was on the call with a YouTuber a few weeks ago and he had like an EV channel, which was
    0:16:02 about electric vehicles.
    0:16:08 And he said that his income went from like three grand a month from his channel to like
    0:16:10 he went to hit his first 11 grand month.
    0:16:15 Only when he started to understand who his audience was did that change happen.
    0:16:18 So basically his channel was about electric cars.
    0:16:22 He was getting views and it was popping off and he was making like three grand a month.
    0:16:27 He thought that his audience loved electric cars, but until he started looking at the
    0:16:31 comments and he started to see that his audience, they don’t love electric cars, the reason
    0:16:33 why they’re watching the video is because they hate electric cars and they’re saying
    0:16:38 how it’s a scam, how it’s not efficient, it’s a big scam from the government.
    0:16:39 Are you understood?
    0:16:40 Hold on.
    0:16:41 My audience, they hate electric cars.
    0:16:46 So then he started doing videos against electric cars saying how it’s a scam, how it’s an agenda
    0:16:49 from the government and then his views just skyrocketed.
    0:16:54 And then I was just like, damn, when you understand who your audience is, then you can just leverage
    0:16:57 that and just take your channel to the moon.
    0:17:00 And so that’s what I’ve been doing recently, I’ve been analyzing the data and the YouTube
    0:17:04 analytics enables you to see who your audience are, how old they are.
    0:17:07 If they’re male or female, what percentage are male, what percentage are female, which
    0:17:09 country they’re watching from.
    0:17:13 And what you can do is you can go on your most viral video or the most viral video in
    0:17:14 your niche.
    0:17:18 There’s a section on the right hand side with vidIQ where you can copy and paste the script
    0:17:23 of the video and you can whack that into chatGPT and then ask chatGPT to give you a customer
    0:17:28 avatar or a audience avatar of the people who would watch that kind of video and it
    0:17:32 will come up with an avatar of your audience and that’s the person you want to speak to.
    0:17:33 Dang.
    0:17:34 Okay.
    0:17:35 That’s fascinating.
    0:17:41 And then the next phase would be to kind of include that audience profile or customer
    0:17:45 avatar type of persona into your script prompt.
    0:17:51 Like, hey, I want to make a video about the next topic that you have in mind, but write
    0:17:53 the script for this type of person.
    0:17:56 Like, is that kind of how you’re leading the tool to give you the script that that audience
    0:17:57 would like?
    0:17:58 I thought of it that way.
    0:17:59 I might start doing that, Nick.
    0:18:01 Thanks for suggesting that.
    0:18:04 Actually ask in chatGPT to say, “Write me a script for this kind of avatar.”
    0:18:07 That will actually work, I believe.
    0:18:09 I’ll give that a shot, but I didn’t specifically do that.
    0:18:16 I’ll look at the customer avatar and I’ll look for things like Bible stories that fit
    0:18:18 to that avatar.
    0:18:19 That’s what I was doing before.
    0:18:20 Yeah.
    0:18:23 Just tailoring to their needs and what they want to feel.
    0:18:25 Some people want to feel joy.
    0:18:29 Some people want to feel that their beliefs are being reassured.
    0:18:30 They want to feel smart.
    0:18:32 They want to feel like, yeah, I like this content.
    0:18:36 This is making me feel that I’m right, that I’m in the right, kind of stroke in the ego
    0:18:37 kind of thing.
    0:18:39 So, you can just leverage that.
    0:18:40 Yeah.
    0:18:44 And even if one video already went viral on that same topic, that ship has sailed, it
    0:18:49 means, hey, there’s clearly a hungry audience for this type of stuff, so how can we feed
    0:18:50 into that?
    0:19:00 Now, how do you make your video on that same topic better, different, unique in some way,
    0:19:02 especially as everybody starts to use the same tool?
    0:19:05 Hey, give me a script on this topic.
    0:19:10 And after a while, like the barrier to entry, the cost of production goes so low that it’s
    0:19:14 just got to be flooded with almost identical videos.
    0:19:20 What you need to do is you need to be the person in your niche who knows the most or
    0:19:25 who’s the most knowledgeable or at least be perceived as that person who’s the most expertise
    0:19:26 in your niche.
    0:19:31 I’ve studied the Bible and I’m pretty much passionate about my niche, which I’m in right
    0:19:32 now.
    0:19:36 So, I just apply the knowledge I know and I just make sure it’s perfect.
    0:19:40 Like every script, I don’t care if AI has generated most of it.
    0:19:45 I don’t even care if I’ve had a script writer do the script for me.
    0:19:47 I fact check everything.
    0:19:48 I look at it.
    0:19:49 I mull it down.
    0:19:50 I pretty much rewrite it.
    0:19:53 I’m very fussy when it comes to this niche and this and the scripts that I’m doing right
    0:19:58 now, because like you said, YouTube keeps increasing, so I’m not too worried about things
    0:20:02 being oversaturated with YouTube, because YouTube has just overthrown Netflix right
    0:20:03 now.
    0:20:07 There’s a statistic that just came out that there’s more consumers on YouTube than on
    0:20:12 Netflix and it’s been constantly increasing, so there’s always going to be more consumers
    0:20:16 than producers, but in terms of different niches, yeah, you have to be good at what
    0:20:17 you do.
    0:20:22 So, gone are the days of doing crappy videos and them going viral when you get in a way
    0:20:23 with it.
    0:20:28 Right now, you have to have quality over quantity and really make sure that the content that
    0:20:35 you’re producing is good, is edited well, but in my opinion, and from my experience,
    0:20:39 the most important thing is ideation, so you have to master ideation and scripting.
    0:20:44 So, those are the two most important things I found out in my YouTube journey, that if
    0:20:48 you have a brilliant idea and then you have a brilliant script that goes with it, and
    0:20:53 if you’re really, really fussy with the script and say fussy, I mean like you redo the intro
    0:20:57 like three or four times and you just want to perfect it and you’re up all night and
    0:21:02 you’re working hours on it, that’s the kind of fuzziness I apply to my scripts.
    0:21:07 It’s actually helpful to hear because it makes for a nice sounding, hey, I came up with this
    0:21:12 idea and then AI did everything else, it’s like, oh no, I still had to apply my expertise
    0:21:17 here, I helped massage that script to use my own first-hand experience and expertise,
    0:21:23 and I think that’s how creators can still stand out and win in an AI world is your first-hand
    0:21:27 experience, no machine is going to be able to replicate that, and then creating primary
    0:21:31 source material, even if the machines are going to eventually rip that off and use it
    0:21:35 to train their models, like at least you came up with it first, it’s got to be worth something
    0:21:39 hopefully, knock on wood down the road, but that’s kind of how we’re trying to play the
    0:21:43 game, like oh, we’re going to actually go out and test these different apps and websites
    0:21:48 that we talk about rather than just regurgitating what else has been said about it online.
    0:21:52 Anybody can do that, but it doesn’t add any unique value, so what unique value you drive
    0:21:57 into the table, hey, in your case, I’m bringing my own Bible experience to these scripts and
    0:22:03 trying to make something that is better and unique compared to whatever else is out there,
    0:22:07 and six months from now, the other AI tool is going to crawl that, but at least you came
    0:22:08 out with it first.
    0:22:09 Yeah, that’s good.
    0:22:14 And going back to the whole competitive advantage aspect, it’s very important to identify whoever
    0:22:19 you are, so you might not have the best knowledge in your niche, but you might have a competitive
    0:22:24 advantage, and I believe everybody is unique, and everyone has some sort of competitive advantage
    0:22:27 in their hands, whether they know it or not, especially when it comes to YouTube.
    0:22:32 So someone might not have a lot of knowledge in their niche, like I do, however, they might
    0:22:38 have a lot of money to burn, and they can just hire somebody who has a lot of knowledge
    0:22:44 in their niche, and they can hire a better editor, or your competitive advantage might
    0:22:46 not be money, it might be time.
    0:22:49 Some people have more time than others, if you’re in high school and you have a lot of
    0:22:53 time in your hands, you don’t have responsibilities, you can just learn editing, you can just become
    0:22:58 the best editor, and you have all this time, you can just become the best video editor
    0:23:01 like in your city, or pretty much aim for the best in the world.
    0:23:04 If you have time, then that’s your competitive advantage.
    0:23:06 If you have a lot of money, that’s your competitive advantage.
    0:23:09 If you have a lot of knowledge, that’s your competitive advantage.
    0:23:14 So you have to discover what your gift is, what your competitive advantage is, and just
    0:23:16 double down on that, because that’s what’s going to make you unique.
    0:23:21 Otherwise, anyone and everyone can be successful in that field, but once you understand that,
    0:23:26 no, I have the gift, I’m gifted to write great scripts, I’m a writer, I love writing, I love
    0:23:28 copywriting, so use that.
    0:23:32 If you’re visual, if you’re good at designing, and you have an eye for things, then just
    0:23:35 use that for thumbnails and for videos.
    0:23:39 Or if you have a lot of knowledge in a specific niche, like electric cars or whatever, just
    0:23:43 use that and apply that to your YouTube or your business journey, even if you’re not
    0:23:46 going into YouTube, you can apply into any journey.
    0:23:50 Or you’ve probably gone through certain experiences like horse riding or fishing, you probably
    0:23:54 have an expertise, an expertise that most people don’t have, and you just think it’s
    0:23:58 always just me, but I’ve always done horse riding, it’s nothing special, but little
    0:24:00 do you know that most people in the world don’t know how to do it.
    0:24:04 Yeah, the curse of knowledge, like it’s hard to imagine, not knowing that thing.
    0:24:05 Yeah, exactly.
    0:24:09 So that’s the thing I would advise, because that thought does run through my mind in it,
    0:24:13 I believe it runs through everyone’s mind, who’s in business, or who’s in YouTube, where
    0:24:18 they think, okay, what’s stopping a bunch of people from doing what I’m doing, but when
    0:24:22 you understand that you have a competitive advantage and you have a lot of knowledge
    0:24:26 in this niche, or you have a lot of money in your hands, or a lot of time on your hands,
    0:24:29 then you can use that for your advantage.
    0:24:34 I asked ChatGPT to give me some viral video ideas of the side hustle niche, and came up
    0:24:35 with some pretty good ones.
    0:24:41 It said the top 10 most profitable side hustles for 2024, passive income side hustles earn
    0:24:46 money while you sleep, how I made 500 bucks in a week flipping thrift store fines, I feel
    0:24:50 like some of these titles are almost word for word ripped off from vlog content titles
    0:24:55 or podcast titles, from side hustle the full time, how I quit my nine to five, side hustle
    0:24:58 mistakes, some of them are not that great.
    0:25:02 The downsides of side hustle, it’s hard to imagine that one going viral.
    0:25:08 But some of these, you could see how they might have some potential to get the creative
    0:25:12 juices flowing versus, I guess I could also start on YouTube and just sort by views or
    0:25:18 sort by like a view velocity metric too, to see like, oh, okay, I could add my own unique
    0:25:22 spin on that topic since that seems to be trending right now.
    0:25:23 Yeah.
    0:25:27 So ChatGPT is really good for when you’ve kind of lost your creativity.
    0:25:32 Just like what you said, Nick, you just whack it into ChatGPT, ask it a question, it will
    0:25:35 come up with a bunch of answers, but then it might not give you the answer that you’re
    0:25:38 looking for, but it will lead to the answer that you’re looking for.
    0:25:43 It might not, like those titles that you just typed in, Nick, you might not go for one of
    0:25:44 those ideas.
    0:25:49 However, like you said, it gets the creative juices flowing, so it might lead to you doing
    0:25:52 something similar to one of those ideas that has popped up.
    0:25:53 Yeah.
    0:25:54 Oh, five side hustles, you can start with no money.
    0:25:56 I feel like that would be a good one.
    0:25:58 It will have to do that, make that video at some point.
    0:26:03 Do you spend time and effort on marketing or is it just like, I put it out there, I did
    0:26:08 my homework and ideation upfront, I tried to make the best video that exists on this topic,
    0:26:12 and then I’m going to hope that people start to notice it, or do you have to do anything
    0:26:16 to push that viral algorithm, hopefully, to get some attention.
    0:26:20 I would say hijack the psychology of a viral thumbnail.
    0:26:24 If you see that there’s something being used in a thumbnail, which is like, for the listeners
    0:26:28 who don’t know what a thumbnail is, a thumbnail is like an image that, before you click on
    0:26:32 YouTube video, it has the title, and then you have the thumbnail, which is like an image
    0:26:34 of what portrays what the video is about.
    0:26:38 I would say hijack the psychology of an already viral thumbnail, so if you look in your niche,
    0:26:43 if you see like MrBeast, for example, he uses this a lot, where he uses a lot of bright,
    0:26:46 vibrant colors in his thumbnails and a lot of emotion.
    0:26:51 So there’s always like him screaming, or him like underwater, or something crazy is going
    0:26:52 on in the thumbnail.
    0:26:57 So if you’re in his niche, then do something similar, and you can even ask ChatGPT to do
    0:27:04 an analysis of your thumbnail, just screenshot it, throw it into ChatGPT, tell it to give
    0:27:07 you an analysis and ask it how you can improve it.
    0:27:08 And actually does that for you.
    0:27:13 It’s very, very smart, ChatGPT, just things that anything you throw at it, it pretty much
    0:27:14 does it.
    0:27:15 It’s weirdly amazing.
    0:27:20 But one thing I would say when it comes to YouTube, most of the times it is a numbers
    0:27:21 game.
    0:27:24 So I was saying this to one of my clients, I’ve been coaching him on how to run YouTube
    0:27:25 channels.
    0:27:27 You can push out 10 videos a month.
    0:27:30 Not all 10 videos will go viral.
    0:27:37 However, if three videos go viral, then that will pay for all of the seven videos that
    0:27:38 didn’t go viral.
    0:27:43 So you can invest money, and you can invest time into 10 videos a month.
    0:27:49 And even though seven videos don’t make you any money, the whole purpose is you would
    0:27:54 want at least three of those videos, which will make you money and will pay for all 10
    0:27:57 of those videos plus profits.
    0:28:00 And the good thing about YouTube is you just have to post the video once, and once you’ve
    0:28:03 posted it once, it will remain on there forever.
    0:28:06 And as long as it’s getting views, it will pay you pretty much as long as it’s getting
    0:28:07 views forever.
    0:28:11 And that’s the good thing about having these digital assets or digital real estate with
    0:28:12 YouTube.
    0:28:14 You upload the video once, it pays you passively forever.
    0:28:15 Is that where you like to be at?
    0:28:19 If I’m batting 300, if I have a 30% hit rate, then I’m happy.
    0:28:21 I know I’m doing something right.
    0:28:22 Yeah.
    0:28:23 That’s the minimum that you would want to accept.
    0:28:26 And all you pretty much need is three videos a month to hit decent numbers for the whole
    0:28:28 production process to be paid for.
    0:28:33 What kind of minimum view count is considered good or is considered a hit?
    0:28:37 I would say the current RPM we’re working with right now is around $4.5.
    0:28:43 So if we get a million views, then we’ll get $4.5,000 USD.
    0:28:51 So essentially, I would say a good number for us to break even for 10 videos will be
    0:28:57 around 150K, 150,000 views to 200,000 views.
    0:28:58 Okay.
    0:28:59 Gosh, that’s a lot.
    0:29:04 I think in 10 years of my YouTube channel, I’ve had one or two go over 100,000.
    0:29:06 Clearly not using all the tools to my advantage here.
    0:29:08 What’s the typical production cost for you these days?
    0:29:10 It’s around $10 per minute.
    0:29:12 That’s the production cost right now.
    0:29:15 So for like a 10 minute video, it’ll be like $100.
    0:29:19 And to break even on a 10 minute video, which is the average view duration.
    0:29:24 So we invest like $100, we’ll need 22,000 views to break even.
    0:29:25 All right.
    0:29:27 We’ve got lots of different channels going on.
    0:29:31 We will link up Tony’s seven steps on how to crush it on YouTube.
    0:29:33 That’s an email opt-in over at his site.
    0:29:35 We’ll link that up in the show notes.
    0:29:40 Let’s wrap this thing up with your number one tip for side hustle nation 2024 edition.
    0:29:43 Never ever give up.
    0:29:47 And I know it sounds like a cliche, but it’s a cliche for a reason.
    0:29:52 Never give up and find out what your competitive advantage is.
    0:29:54 And I know I mentioned it earlier.
    0:30:01 It’s important to understand who you are, what you have experienced in life and what
    0:30:02 you bring to the table.
    0:30:07 So whether it be YouTube or any type of business, it’s very important to see what is your competitive
    0:30:08 advantage?
    0:30:10 What have you experienced that most people haven’t?
    0:30:11 What do you have that most people don’t have?
    0:30:12 Do you have a lot of time?
    0:30:13 Do you have a lot of money?
    0:30:14 Are you young?
    0:30:15 Do you have a lot of energy?
    0:30:16 Are you good at remembering things?
    0:30:18 Are you photographic?
    0:30:22 Use that to your advantage because that’s going to be what makes you different from everybody
    0:30:23 else.
    0:30:24 Yeah, absolutely.
    0:30:28 In an AI world, you figure out what’s going to make your channel unique from the next
    0:30:29 guys.
    0:30:30 It’s you.
    0:30:34 You got to be that extra ingredient and sprinkle in your own personality expertise, whatever
    0:30:39 it may be, to really drive results and to make something unique in the world, make something
    0:30:40 stand out.
    0:30:46 So again, fascinating stuff on the YouTube and AI revolution on the video front over
    0:30:47 there.
    0:30:51 So as we mentioned, this is Tony’s on-core visit to the side hustle show.
    0:30:54 So make sure to check out his first appearance if you missed it.
    0:30:58 That is episode five at 65 in your podcast feed.
    0:31:02 But again, we’re talking about making money on YouTube, planting these little money seeds
    0:31:06 and maybe a good one to pair with this one and see what all has changed over the course
    0:31:07 of a year.
    0:31:10 But if you’re new to the show, you’re wondering what to listen to next, I want to invite you
    0:31:13 to do what thousands of listeners have already done.
    0:31:18 Please do in it and that’s to build yourself a personalized playlist of the side hustle
    0:31:21 show episodes that will be most relevant to you.
    0:31:26 All you got to do is go to hustle.show, answer a few short multiple choice questions and
    0:31:31 the little quiz will spit back out this cool curated money making playlist recommendation
    0:31:33 based on your answers.
    0:31:37 So that’s at hustle.show and you grab your playlist over there.
    0:31:40 Big thanks to Tony for sharing his insight.
    0:31:43 Thanks to our sponsors for helping make this content free for everyone.
    0:31:48 You can hit up side hustle nation.com/deals for all the latest offers from our sponsors
    0:31:50 in one place.
    0:31:51 That’s it for me.
    0:31:52 Thank you so much for tuning in.
    0:31:55 Until next time, let’s go out there and make something happen and I’ll catch you in the
    0:31:58 next edition of the side hustle show hustle on.

    Last year, I spoke with Tony Lysandrides on episode 565 where we talked about YouTube automation. Back then, the process was much more manual.

    The typical workflow was something like this: coming up with viral video ideas, hiring scriptwriters, voice artists, and video editors to create content.

    The aim was to hit the viral YouTube lottery by planting a bunch of digital assets and hoping enough would hit big to turn a profit on ad income.

    But what a difference a year makes.

    Now, we’ve got AI tools to assist in just about every step of that production process, and Tony’s been on the front lines of these changes.

    So I wanted to have him back on to find out, first of all, is that a good thing for content creators, YouTubers, and side hustlers? And how much can you make in this new AI-powered YouTube landscape?

    Full Show Notes: How to Make Money on YouTube with AI Video Tools

    New to the Show? Get your personalized money-making playlist here!

    Sponsors:

    Shopify — Sign up for a $1 per month trial!

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  • 620: 9 Rules to Scale Any Side Hustle

    AI transcript
    0:00:03 – Nine rules to level up any side hustle.
    0:00:05 What’s up, what’s up, Nick Loper here.
    0:00:06 Welcome to The Side Hustle Show,
    0:00:10 helping you take back control of your earning power
    0:00:12 so your income doesn’t have to stop when your day job does.
    0:00:15 Today we’re talking about scaling up your side hustle.
    0:00:18 We’ve got a lot of episodes on zero to one
    0:00:21 part of the equation, which is honestly probably
    0:00:24 the harder part, wheeling something into existence
    0:00:26 and getting it off the ground, not an easy key,
    0:00:29 but today we’re talking about the next stage.
    0:00:31 We’ve gone from zero to one, now it’s time
    0:00:33 to go from one to two to 10.
    0:00:34 Well, how do you do it?
    0:00:36 We’ve got nine rules to go through.
    0:00:38 Listen in to see which stage you’re at today
    0:00:41 to see where you need to focus your attention next.
    0:00:43 To help me with these is a special guest
    0:00:45 who knows a thing or two about scaling.
    0:00:47 He’s done it with multiple businesses,
    0:00:50 including flipping over 100 houses a year,
    0:00:52 sometimes without even seeing the houses,
    0:00:56 scaling, automating and selling an online education business.
    0:00:59 It is the latest venture and online platform and podcast
    0:01:03 from MillionaireUniversity.com, Justin Williams.
    0:01:04 Welcome to The Side Hustle Show.
    0:01:06 – Hey, Nick, what’s going on?
    0:01:08 What’s up, Side Hustle Nation?
    0:01:10 Before we dive in real quick, Nick, I just wanna say
    0:01:13 I started listening to your podcast just over a year ago.
    0:01:16 We had taken some time off, we sold our business,
    0:01:19 and honestly, it was hard to get back into
    0:01:21 the business world after taking some time off.
    0:01:22 There was a lot of demons in there,
    0:01:25 and I found your show and started listening to it,
    0:01:27 even though your show was for Side Hustles,
    0:01:31 and in a way, people getting started and getting going,
    0:01:33 it gave me a lot of inspiration to keep going,
    0:01:35 and I just appreciate what you’re doing.
    0:01:38 So being here is pretty exciting.
    0:01:39 I mean, you’re one of the rare podcasts out there
    0:01:42 that both get the guests to really share
    0:01:44 everything that’s going on in their business,
    0:01:46 but it’s also real down-to-earth.
    0:01:47 You never get that icky feeling
    0:01:48 when you’re listening to you,
    0:01:49 and I just recommend it to you, everyone.
    0:01:51 You’re like a mentor to my kids.
    0:01:54 So anyway, huge fan, thank you for everything that you’ve done.
    0:01:55 – I’m gonna put that on a bumper stick.
    0:01:57 You don’t get that icky feeling.
    0:01:58 If that’s an endorsement, I don’t know what to do.
    0:01:59 – No, it’s so true, right?
    0:02:01 Like, you just don’t get that,
    0:02:02 like a lot of times I’m listening to something,
    0:02:03 I get a lot of value,
    0:02:04 but there’s kind of the back of my mind.
    0:02:06 I’m like, what’s really going on here?
    0:02:07 And you’re just so down-to-earth,
    0:02:09 and I just really appreciate what you’re doing.
    0:02:11 And on behalf of everyone,
    0:02:13 I’m sure who’s listening feels the same.
    0:02:15 You’re doing a great work, so thank you.
    0:02:18 – Well, very much appreciated that makes my day.
    0:02:20 So if you’re listening and we’re doing three rounds
    0:02:22 with Justin today, we’re doing the nine rules of scale,
    0:02:23 or nine rules to scale.
    0:02:25 We’re doing a donate a business idea.
    0:02:26 He says he’s got a good one for us.
    0:02:27 Stick around for that.
    0:02:29 And then we’re doing the triple threat,
    0:02:31 a marketing tactic that’s working now,
    0:02:33 a favorite new or new to him tool,
    0:02:35 and the best book of the last 12 months.
    0:02:37 But let’s kick it off with these nine rules.
    0:02:38 What’s rule number one?
    0:02:42 – So the first rule that we have is intent.
    0:02:45 Now, I almost didn’t use this one because it sounds obvious.
    0:02:46 Like, of course you have to have intent,
    0:02:49 but what I found is the number one reason
    0:02:51 and the way that we have scaled,
    0:02:52 all the business we scaled is because
    0:02:54 it was our intention to do so.
    0:02:56 In our minds, we were always asking,
    0:02:58 how can we do this better?
    0:03:00 How can we do more of this?
    0:03:01 How can we automate this?
    0:03:04 How can we get more done with less time?
    0:03:07 And what I found is most people who haven’t scaled
    0:03:08 their business or aren’t scaling their business
    0:03:12 for side hustle is it’s not their intention to do so.
    0:03:15 Kristin Armstrong, who’s one of the best women cyclists
    0:03:18 that’s ever cycled, she said we either live
    0:03:21 with intention or exist by default.
    0:03:24 And I just see so many people going throughout their lives
    0:03:26 and they don’t have an intention to change things.
    0:03:29 And they just kind of are reactive
    0:03:30 to things that are going on in their life
    0:03:33 and they don’t really get the places that they wanna go.
    0:03:35 So number one is intent.
    0:03:38 Your brain is an insanely powerful tool.
    0:03:39 If you give it a problem to solve,
    0:03:41 it’ll usually go to work doing it.
    0:03:43 So first of all, you gotta have that big vision.
    0:03:44 You gotta know where you wanna go.
    0:03:48 You gotta have the intention to want to grow and scale.
    0:03:50 And that’s rule number one.
    0:03:52 – That’s a really powerful one.
    0:03:53 I’m kind of with you.
    0:03:54 Do you even include that?
    0:03:56 ‘Cause it’s almost so obvious
    0:03:59 and almost woo-woo of the power of positive thinking.
    0:04:01 If you believe it, it’ll start to come true.
    0:04:02 – Totally.
    0:04:04 – But we’ve heard from so many entrepreneurs,
    0:04:08 if you don’t have this vision of where you wanna go,
    0:04:08 how are you ever gonna get there?
    0:04:11 I’d like trying to do Brian Scoodemore
    0:04:12 from “1800 Got Junk.”
    0:04:14 He called it his painted picture vision
    0:04:16 of like, hey, five years down the road.
    0:04:17 This is what the business is gonna be doing.
    0:04:18 This is what it’s gonna look like
    0:04:19 from a branding perspective.
    0:04:21 And then just kind of working backwards
    0:04:24 to get from the reality that is today,
    0:04:25 how do we make that happen?
    0:04:27 I love this line of we live with intention
    0:04:30 or exist by default.
    0:04:32 And I find myself guilty of this as much as anybody.
    0:04:34 So this is not like preaching from on high,
    0:04:38 but like you’re going through the motions day to day
    0:04:40 and you feel like kind of just in maintenance mode
    0:04:42 and like you described it reactive
    0:04:44 versus driving your own agenda forward,
    0:04:46 living with intention.
    0:04:49 I often feels like, well, I’m too busy chopping down trees
    0:04:50 to sharpen the saw.
    0:04:51 And she kind of gets stuck at that.
    0:04:55 Like anything that has worked for you exercise-wise
    0:05:00 or other resource-wise to get clear on this intention
    0:05:01 or where you wanna go.
    0:05:03 – I always start with the goal.
    0:05:05 Often it’s a money goal, it’s a number goal.
    0:05:08 For example, when we started flipping 100 houses a year,
    0:05:10 I remember we were at a wild buffalo wings
    0:05:12 with a bunch of other investor friends.
    0:05:14 And together I started counting up how many houses
    0:05:16 we had all flipped collectively that past year.
    0:05:17 And it was just over a hundred.
    0:05:22 And I said, I wanna flip 100 houses just my business alone.
    0:05:23 Everyone laughed at me.
    0:05:24 They thought I was crazy.
    0:05:26 – Yes, like a house every three and a half days.
    0:05:27 Like how does this even happen?
    0:05:27 – Yeah, yeah, yeah.
    0:05:29 And up until that point,
    0:05:31 we definitely hadn’t done that many, right?
    0:05:34 But I just thought, why can’t I do this?
    0:05:35 So I started thinking about it, how can we do it?
    0:05:36 How can we do it?
    0:05:37 It started with a goal.
    0:05:39 Also wanted to get to a seven figure income.
    0:05:41 So it was constantly just working those numbers.
    0:05:42 How can we get there?
    0:05:43 How can we get there?
    0:05:45 And then I mean, we’ll kind of go through,
    0:05:47 I don’t wanna like, we’ll go through the rest of the rules,
    0:05:48 right?
    0:05:50 We’ll share like what,
    0:05:51 how we’re gonna help them get there essentially.
    0:05:54 So rule number two, should we move on to it?
    0:05:55 – Yeah, let’s do it.
    0:05:56 – Okay.
    0:05:57 Rule number two is eliminate.
    0:06:00 Essentially, the way this works is you wanna write down
    0:06:02 everything that you’re currently doing
    0:06:05 in your business and your life.
    0:06:10 And you just wanna start getting rid of anything you can.
    0:06:13 I’m all about having multiple streams of income.
    0:06:15 But if you’re spending a lot of time
    0:06:17 doing some things that you’re not getting great results,
    0:06:19 you might wanna just let those things go.
    0:06:22 Peter Drucker said, there’s nothing so useless
    0:06:27 as doing efficiently that which shouldn’t be done at all.
    0:06:29 And I don’t know about you, Nick,
    0:06:30 but there are a lot of times where I’ll find myself
    0:06:33 working on this project and it’s taking a ton of time
    0:06:35 and energy and I’m getting frustrated.
    0:06:36 And I just sit and think about it.
    0:06:38 And I think about my long-term goals.
    0:06:41 And I’m just like, do I need to do this?
    0:06:43 Like, is this even something that matters
    0:06:44 or is it important right now?
    0:06:47 And sometimes I’ll just eliminate it completely.
    0:06:48 – What was an example for you?
    0:06:52 – When we started Millionaire University,
    0:06:55 Tara and I were doing everything.
    0:06:58 We thought we had to have our social medias dialed in.
    0:06:59 We were doing the podcasts.
    0:07:01 We were trying to collect emails.
    0:07:03 We were doing blogging.
    0:07:05 We were doing Twitter threads,
    0:07:07 which now you have threads, threads.
    0:07:09 Like, we were trying to do it all.
    0:07:12 And it was fun for about a week.
    0:07:15 And then it started to get exhausting and overwhelming.
    0:07:17 And we were like, what are we doing?
    0:07:19 We don’t even have to have a business,
    0:07:21 but we’re doing this business ’cause we got bored
    0:07:22 and we weren’t fulfilled.
    0:07:25 So we started a business and now we were just working
    0:07:28 and working and working and not enjoying
    0:07:30 anything that we had done.
    0:07:31 So we just came to the realization,
    0:07:34 okay, what is the one thing that we wanna focus on?
    0:07:36 And it was the podcast.
    0:07:38 We still did some social media stuff,
    0:07:39 but it was very limited.
    0:07:41 We didn’t worry about any other metrics.
    0:07:43 We just worried about growing our podcasts.
    0:07:46 We weren’t getting traction in anything.
    0:07:49 Here we had Bill, other successful businesses.
    0:07:51 We had pretty good cash flow coming in
    0:07:53 and we were just working our guts out
    0:07:56 and not getting any traction because we were spread too thin
    0:07:57 and weren’t really getting anywhere.
    0:08:01 – Is that the deciding factor of if I’m not seeing traction
    0:08:05 in the combination of I really don’t enjoy doing it
    0:08:06 because the counter argument would be like,
    0:08:08 well, I’m not seeing traction, but I only gave it a week.
    0:08:09 I gotta put in some breaths.
    0:08:11 I gotta put in some time here to grow an Instagram audience,
    0:08:13 to grow a Twitter audience or something like that.
    0:08:17 – So I think it’s a combination of both, right?
    0:08:18 We decided what are we best at
    0:08:20 and what do we enjoy the most?
    0:08:21 And let’s put everything else on the back burner.
    0:08:24 Doesn’t mean we’re not gonna go back to it at some point,
    0:08:25 but let’s put it all in the back burner
    0:08:28 and really double down and focus on what we enjoy the most
    0:08:30 ’cause it gives us the most energy
    0:08:32 and what we think we’re the best at
    0:08:34 so we can really focus in on it.
    0:08:35 And that was the podcast.
    0:08:37 And the truth is, even at the beginning,
    0:08:39 we weren’t getting a lot of traction in the podcast.
    0:08:41 We had done several podcasts in the past
    0:08:44 and we thought this is like our fourth podcast.
    0:08:45 We’re gonna kill it.
    0:08:48 And we published it and it was crickets.
    0:08:51 Like, we had several episodes ready.
    0:08:52 We built this website.
    0:08:54 We were excited for having to reach out and be like,
    0:08:56 yeah, a million university guys are gonna change the world
    0:08:58 and nothing happened.
    0:09:00 It was so disappointing.
    0:09:01 And even after we limited other stuff,
    0:09:03 it was still crickets.
    0:09:05 But after focusing on that one thing,
    0:09:09 just growing the podcast numbers in any way we could,
    0:09:11 creating the best content we could for the podcast,
    0:09:14 we did start to see traction to the point today
    0:09:16 where we now in the past 30 days
    0:09:19 have over 260,000 downloads.
    0:09:21 And it’s just, everything has changed.
    0:09:22 Now we have traction, we can go back
    0:09:25 and start to do some of those other things over time.
    0:09:27 – Yeah, I feel like there’s a certain pressure
    0:09:30 to be everywhere and try all these different channels.
    0:09:33 But the brands and creators that you see doing that
    0:09:35 likely have a team in place.
    0:09:36 So they’ve been doing this for years
    0:09:38 where they really honed in the systems for it.
    0:09:39 – 100%.
    0:09:40 – And if you’re trying to do that as a side hustle,
    0:09:42 you’re just like, oh my God.
    0:09:44 And then that’s the reason I’ve had such a hard time
    0:09:49 indicating the time to short form social platforms.
    0:09:52 It’s like, I’d so much rather to create long form content
    0:09:53 that’s gonna be around for years.
    0:09:54 – 100%.
    0:09:56 – Than come up with this thread
    0:09:59 that may or may not get any traction or eyeballs
    0:10:00 that is gone tomorrow, even if it does.
    0:10:02 I guess it’s just kind of a weird,
    0:10:04 and one of the things that I eliminated early on
    0:10:07 that I felt was very necessary in the business
    0:10:08 was the email opt-in form.
    0:10:10 I had like first name, email, right?
    0:10:12 And some people would not fill in the first name.
    0:10:14 It was like an optional field.
    0:10:16 But I would, I still remember doing this in Aweber
    0:10:18 copying and pasting this email.
    0:10:21 And sometimes it would be like John Smith at yahoo.com.
    0:10:22 It’s like, okay, I’m gonna guess
    0:10:23 that this guy’s name was John.
    0:10:24 So I’m gonna put in John.
    0:10:26 And like, just so it would show up
    0:10:29 like more personalized in their broadcast emails.
    0:10:31 It’s like, if somebody didn’t care to put in their name,
    0:10:34 like, I don’t know, the cumulative hours
    0:10:35 I’ve probably spent doing this
    0:10:37 in the name of a more personalized experience.
    0:10:40 But that was something that has long since been eliminated.
    0:10:41 So that’s rule number two,
    0:10:44 eliminate what is not getting results
    0:10:46 or driving you towards that intention.
    0:10:47 But what’s number three for us?
    0:10:50 – Rule number three is automate.
    0:10:52 So you want to take that same list
    0:10:53 that you had all those things on,
    0:10:54 you eliminate everything you can
    0:10:57 and also eliminate things in your personal life.
    0:10:59 They say the average person consumes
    0:11:02 about eight hours of media per day.
    0:11:04 So imagine if you can just cut that in half.
    0:11:06 But if you’re at four, cut it to two.
    0:11:08 I’m not saying don’t watch any TV
    0:11:10 or like I would be a hypocrite, right?
    0:11:11 Or Netflix or anything,
    0:11:13 but just cut that in half.
    0:11:15 It’ll buy back a lot of your time.
    0:11:18 So then you’re gonna take that list of what’s left over
    0:11:21 and number three and four kind of go together.
    0:11:22 You’re gonna write down,
    0:11:23 you’re gonna figure out what you can automate,
    0:11:25 which is number three and then number four,
    0:11:27 which is delegate.
    0:11:28 So you’re gonna look at this list
    0:11:29 and you’re not gonna think,
    0:11:31 can I automate or delegate these things?
    0:11:35 You’re gonna think, how can I automate and delegate
    0:11:37 everything on this list?
    0:11:38 Now you wanna start with the things
    0:11:41 that take the most of your time
    0:11:44 and you feel like would be the easiest to automate
    0:11:46 or to delegate.
    0:11:49 So for us, for example, when we were flipping houses,
    0:11:53 we spent most of our time making offers on houses,
    0:11:58 fixing up houses, managing contractors, that sort of thing.
    0:12:00 So some of the things that we did
    0:12:03 was we hired an assistant and we trained her
    0:12:05 our exact criteria for making offers.
    0:12:08 And then she later trained our agents
    0:12:10 and we had all these agents out making offers,
    0:12:12 which we gave them authorization to make offers
    0:12:15 on our behalf based on our criteria.
    0:12:17 And they were making hundreds of offers
    0:12:20 without us even knowing anything or seeing the house
    0:12:23 or seeing that number until one got accepted,
    0:12:26 then we would briefly go over it and review it,
    0:12:27 make sure it was good.
    0:12:29 We had a 14 day inspection clause.
    0:12:30 – Yeah, I was gonna say,
    0:12:31 there’s a certain level of trust in there,
    0:12:32 but as long as you have like-
    0:12:33 – Oh yeah, 100%.
    0:12:34 – Yeah, get out of jail free here.
    0:12:37 – Yeah, and then we had just a couple of contractors
    0:12:40 that we worked with and they had the people they worked with
    0:12:44 and we would use the exact same materials for every house.
    0:12:47 The decision making went out the door.
    0:12:49 We were buying similar types of houses
    0:12:53 and we’d use the same color paint, same type of finishes.
    0:12:54 And then another thing that we did,
    0:12:56 we realized we were spending a ton of time
    0:12:59 working with contractors and coming up with
    0:13:01 the beginning would have like three people
    0:13:03 go to the property and come up with these different bids
    0:13:05 and would haggle back and forth.
    0:13:07 And I was sitting down one day and looking at these bids
    0:13:09 and I was like, you know, at the end of the day,
    0:13:11 they’re all ending up about the same place.
    0:13:13 So why don’t we just start there?
    0:13:17 And we came up with a list that had every line item
    0:13:20 that the contractors would do
    0:13:22 and we came up with a pre-agreed price
    0:13:25 and we had our contractors agree to that ahead of time.
    0:13:27 So we no longer had to do multiple bids
    0:13:29 or it’s no longer any haggling.
    0:13:31 We knew exactly what we were paying for a house,
    0:13:33 for paint, for like the square footage of the house.
    0:13:35 We knew what we were paying for flooring
    0:13:37 based on how big the flooring was.
    0:13:40 It was all laid out, it made it very simple
    0:13:42 and really stayed a lot of time in that way.
    0:13:45 – Okay, yeah, so rule two, three and four,
    0:13:47 eliminate, automate, delegate in that order, right?
    0:13:50 There’s no sense in automating or delegating stuff
    0:13:52 that doesn’t need to be done in the first place.
    0:13:53 – 100%.
    0:13:55 – By figuring out, and even if it’s something as simple
    0:14:00 as sending an email, like I have found certain triggers
    0:14:01 would necessitate sending an email
    0:14:03 to another member of the team.
    0:14:05 It’s like, okay, well, the trigger is
    0:14:08 that file is delivered back from the editor.
    0:14:09 So now I need to send a note to the writer
    0:14:11 that it’s ready to summarize.
    0:14:13 Like, oh, if they’re uploading it
    0:14:15 to a specific folder in Google Drive,
    0:14:18 like, okay, make used to be Zapier, but like make.com,
    0:14:21 like can automatically send that email trigger,
    0:14:23 that task notification system,
    0:14:25 or it could automatically add tasks to Asana.
    0:14:27 Even if it’s just individually,
    0:14:28 it only took a couple of seconds,
    0:14:30 but like now you just don’t have to think about that.
    0:14:32 And then delegating that to somebody else on your team,
    0:14:35 the combo platter of automation and delegation
    0:14:37 can be super powerful for me.
    0:14:41 It was bookkeeping tasks years later than I should have,
    0:14:43 where it’s like every PayPal notification
    0:14:44 would come through.
    0:14:46 It was kind of like the dopamine hit of like,
    0:14:48 I made some money, I got paid, I better go log this
    0:14:51 in my up to the minute accounting spreadsheet, basically.
    0:14:53 It’s like, oh my God, the task switching costs
    0:14:54 of all this sort of thing.
    0:14:55 – 100%.
    0:14:58 – Just having a bookkeeper that can tap into your accounts
    0:14:59 and just create that summary for you.
    0:15:01 More with Justin in just a moment,
    0:15:04 including how he’s delegated himself off his own podcast
    0:15:08 and more rules to scale your side hustle right after this.
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    0:16:18 So in our house flipping education business,
    0:16:20 essentially the way it worked out,
    0:16:21 it was like, what were all the main things
    0:16:23 that we needed to do?
    0:16:24 We needed a tech guy who needs someone
    0:16:27 who was constantly making offers and funnels
    0:16:28 and sending out emails.
    0:16:30 So we brought on a guy to do that.
    0:16:32 And then it was essentially coaching.
    0:16:35 So I initially did the coaching myself,
    0:16:38 but then brought someone on to help with the coaching.
    0:16:40 And over time, brought on other coaches.
    0:16:44 Eventually, our COO was one of our first
    0:16:46 high level students.
    0:16:47 We got to the point in the business
    0:16:51 where I was no longer needed in my house flipping business
    0:16:53 or my education business or my coaching business.
    0:16:56 And I would show up to events and just kind of talk
    0:17:00 a little bit and record stuff and just kind of hang out.
    0:17:02 And eventually when we were ready to sell the business,
    0:17:06 it was an easy exit because we weren’t needed anymore.
    0:17:09 – It makes it more sellable or makes it sellable
    0:17:11 in the first place, it’s not reliant on you.
    0:17:13 But it’s interesting too with the podcast,
    0:17:15 in fact, it’s rarely you behind the mic
    0:17:17 from how it started to where it is today.
    0:17:20 – Yeah, so the same thing with our podcast now.
    0:17:22 It’s like, what are the main things that we focus on?
    0:17:26 What are the main levers and it’s create podcast content?
    0:17:27 I always use you as an example.
    0:17:30 I’m like, is our content as good as Nick Loper’s content?
    0:17:33 If it’s not, we got to keep working on it, right?
    0:17:34 So that’s kind of the gold standard
    0:17:36 is we’re always trying to improve the content
    0:17:39 and then we’re trying to grow our numbers, right?
    0:17:41 And I’ll get into that in the upcoming ones.
    0:17:42 But yeah, you’re right.
    0:17:44 We’re to the point where Tara and I,
    0:17:45 who Tara’s sitting over here,
    0:17:48 but we rarely even show up on the podcast.
    0:17:50 So we’ve created this podcast
    0:17:53 that has over a quarter million downloads per month.
    0:17:55 If I want to show up, we show up.
    0:17:56 But my goal is to create businesses
    0:17:59 where I don’t have to be a part of.
    0:18:01 If something happens to us, ’cause the truth is,
    0:18:03 there are some days where I don’t want to do anything.
    0:18:05 There are some days where I feel super motivated
    0:18:06 and want to talk.
    0:18:08 And I like to run businesses in a way
    0:18:11 that I don’t have to be involved if I don’t want to
    0:18:12 or I can’t.
    0:18:13 And that to me personally
    0:18:15 is kind of like the ultimate true freedom.
    0:18:16 – Yeah.
    0:18:17 Was there any pushback from listeners?
    0:18:19 It’d be like, who’s this new guy?
    0:18:20 Ask him the questions.
    0:18:21 – No, so the way we did it,
    0:18:23 and this was pretty similar to how we did our coaches,
    0:18:27 was the first person I brought on was Brian Gehran,
    0:18:28 who–
    0:18:29 – Side hustle show guest, yeah.
    0:18:31 – Yeah, I heard on your episode.
    0:18:32 So I reached out to him.
    0:18:34 I was like, hey, you are awesome.
    0:18:35 Can I interview you?
    0:18:36 So we kind of built a relationship.
    0:18:37 And then I asked him, I said,
    0:18:39 hey, do you want to help me interview people on the show?
    0:18:41 And of course he was excited to do that
    0:18:42 ’cause it gives him notoriety.
    0:18:44 We pay him a little something.
    0:18:45 We give him a little bit of equity.
    0:18:48 You know, we kind of made it this win-win situation.
    0:18:51 There wasn’t pushback because they had already heard from him.
    0:18:54 And then I think I, I don’t know if I interviewed him again
    0:18:56 or the first couple of times that he interviewed someone,
    0:18:58 I did the intro and outro.
    0:19:01 So I helped the guests kind of get warmed up to him.
    0:19:04 You know how you watch a TV show or a series
    0:19:05 and if a new person just comes in
    0:19:06 and you don’t know who they are,
    0:19:08 you’re like, hey, who’s that?
    0:19:09 What’s going on?
    0:19:11 But if you kind of get warmed up to him over time,
    0:19:13 you’re like, okay, I like this person.
    0:19:14 I can jive with that.
    0:19:17 So I did the same thing with the other two hosts that we have.
    0:19:20 I was people, you know, Eric Fisher,
    0:19:22 who he’s been on the show a couple of times.
    0:19:23 I’ve been on his show.
    0:19:26 – Long time podcaster, beyond the TV list.
    0:19:28 – I know, long time, man.
    0:19:31 So I usually like to have the audience hear them
    0:19:35 a few times before I let them just kind of go on their own
    0:19:36 and do their own thing.
    0:19:39 We have not had any pushback.
    0:19:41 I still listen to every episode.
    0:19:43 I’m kind of like quality control.
    0:19:45 There have been some episodes that I’ve sent back
    0:19:50 and said, hey, we got to get more details on this one, right?
    0:19:52 But the goal is eventually where
    0:19:54 I don’t have to do that quality control.
    0:19:56 – Okay, so that’s rule number four, delegate.
    0:19:58 How do you delegate the items on your list?
    0:19:59 How do you make the business?
    0:20:01 Ultimately, it doesn’t have to be today,
    0:20:04 but someday in the future run without you.
    0:20:05 What have you got for number five?
    0:20:08 Number five is come up with your de-riskify plan
    0:20:10 or your risk mitigation plan.
    0:20:13 De-riskify is just kind of a fun word I came up with.
    0:20:15 So this was actually pretty huge for us.
    0:20:16 And it’s something that I don’t think
    0:20:18 a lot of people think about.
    0:20:20 I think the first few are kind of a little more obvious,
    0:20:23 but I think the main thing that holds people back
    0:20:25 from taking action on their dreams
    0:20:28 and starting their side hustle or their business is fear.
    0:20:31 It’s the fear of what people are going to think of them,
    0:20:32 the fear of failure,
    0:20:34 the fear of what if this doesn’t work out.
    0:20:35 And I think the thing that keeps people
    0:20:40 from growing or scaling their business is fear of risk,
    0:20:43 fear of what am I going to lose?
    0:20:45 So one of the things that happened
    0:20:46 before we started scaling our business
    0:20:50 was when we first started in the real estate game,
    0:20:52 it was in May of 2007.
    0:20:55 And for those of you who know your real estate history,
    0:20:57 that was not a good time to get into real estate.
    0:20:59 But we started out doing a thing called wholesaling,
    0:21:02 which essentially was we would put houses under contract
    0:21:05 and then we would sell the rights to that contract.
    0:21:06 We never actually bought the house.
    0:21:07 So we weren’t risking any money,
    0:21:10 we weren’t risking any repairs or anything like that.
    0:21:12 A couple of years later,
    0:21:14 when we went to flip our first house,
    0:21:16 I was scared to death.
    0:21:18 The thing is we weren’t even using our own money,
    0:21:20 we’re actually using one of our investor’s money,
    0:21:22 but I was so afraid to lose his money.
    0:21:23 And we made it through that deal,
    0:21:26 but it caused me to not want to buy any more houses.
    0:21:28 So we got into rental properties.
    0:21:30 And I learned rental criteria
    0:21:31 and learned how to understand cash flow.
    0:21:33 And we just went to town.
    0:21:34 And in a four month period,
    0:21:36 we ended up buying 12 houses,
    0:21:38 which was more houses than we had bought
    0:21:39 in that shorter period of time.
    0:21:41 It was really exciting.
    0:21:42 But we got to a point in our life
    0:21:44 where we were way out of money.
    0:21:45 Our investors were out of money,
    0:21:47 we didn’t know how to pay the bills.
    0:21:49 So kicking and screaming,
    0:21:50 we had to sell some of those houses.
    0:21:52 And we ended up selling four of those houses.
    0:21:56 And from selling those four houses within a couple of weeks,
    0:21:58 we made more money than we needed to pay our bills
    0:22:00 and all our expenses for over a year.
    0:22:03 I’m not just changed everything for us.
    0:22:05 I was like, wow, what if we could do this every month?
    0:22:07 What if we could make more money
    0:22:10 than we need for an entire year every month?
    0:22:11 So we ended up selling the rest of the houses.
    0:22:14 At the same time, we started buying more houses,
    0:22:17 but that also met that rental criteria
    0:22:18 and it just helped us go to town.
    0:22:20 I no longer had that thing in my brain,
    0:22:22 that limbic brain, that lizard brain,
    0:22:25 the fight or flight that was getting so afraid
    0:22:27 of taking action because I didn’t know
    0:22:28 what the end result was gonna be.
    0:22:29 I was afraid of losing money.
    0:22:31 So I was stuck in my tracks.
    0:22:32 I didn’t have that anymore.
    0:22:33 ‘Cause I was buying houses,
    0:22:35 I was flipping rentals essentially.
    0:22:37 I had a plan B, I had a plan A, plan B.
    0:22:39 If something didn’t work out,
    0:22:41 then I would end up with the hundred rental properties
    0:22:43 that I initially wanted in the cash flow
    0:22:44 that I was looking for.
    0:22:46 So that combined with the systems
    0:22:48 and all the things that we’ve been talking about
    0:22:51 just allowed us to really take off in scale.
    0:22:53 From there, we got a JV partner who put up,
    0:22:54 this guy had deep pockets.
    0:22:56 It wasn’t like the other guy that I was borrowing money from
    0:22:58 who this was his retirement.
    0:23:00 This guy understood the risk
    0:23:02 and we were able to go to town.
    0:23:03 – Okay.
    0:23:05 I have a plan B that is still acceptable to you.
    0:23:07 I think probably makes sense.
    0:23:09 First is like the Warren Buffett thing,
    0:23:10 you make money when you buy.
    0:23:12 Like I’m gonna do the forced appreciation thing
    0:23:15 and sell this to another investor.
    0:23:17 Let them be the long-term holder of this thing.
    0:23:18 But I’m gonna get my money out quickly
    0:23:20 as a way to de-risk the whole operation.
    0:23:23 I think about what’s probably on a lot of people’s mind
    0:23:26 for the last nine to 12-ish months
    0:23:28 in the world of online businesses,
    0:23:31 algorithm updates and AI and stuff.
    0:23:33 Like how do I de-risk my business from AI?
    0:23:35 Whether it’s diversifying traffic sources,
    0:23:37 whether it’s building an email list,
    0:23:39 whether it’s selling your own product,
    0:23:41 how you get to compete in an AI first world,
    0:23:44 the answers may look differently for person,
    0:23:46 but that’s number five here is this de-risk plan
    0:23:48 or come up with your de-risk if I plan.
    0:23:50 – And it’s gonna be different for everyone.
    0:23:51 The truth is I don’t know about you,
    0:23:53 but the number one thing people tell us
    0:23:55 ’cause we ask our audience like,
    0:23:56 hey, what’s the number one thing you’re stuck with?
    0:23:57 And it’s always money.
    0:23:59 They’re like, I don’t have enough money.
    0:24:01 And you know this, I know this.
    0:24:03 You don’t really need a lot of money to start a business.
    0:24:04 There’s so many different ways
    0:24:06 you can start a business with little no money.
    0:24:09 So it really depends on your situation.
    0:24:11 And we could talk about this for hours, right?
    0:24:14 You love service businesses, I love service businesses.
    0:24:16 There’s not a whole lot of risk in going out
    0:24:18 and trying to get these clients for a service business.
    0:24:21 – In most cases, right, it’s like the startup costs
    0:24:24 for almost anything that we talk about
    0:24:27 would be sub $500, or there’s some creative way
    0:24:29 to make it such that it is,
    0:24:31 that it’s within reach where you’re not having to take out
    0:24:36 a second mortgage or something to get something off the ground.
    0:24:39 And when you’ve kind of minimized your downside exposure
    0:24:42 and you’re taking a swing at something with some upside,
    0:24:44 with some scale, it’s only a matter of time
    0:24:47 before something hits and erases all the losses.
    0:24:49 ‘Cause the first thing may or may not be the one
    0:24:52 that actually works and having the wherewithal
    0:24:54 to be like, well, that doesn’t make me an abject failure.
    0:24:56 It just means that idea didn’t pan out.
    0:24:57 So okay, on to the next thing.
    0:24:59 So definitely keep your risks low,
    0:25:01 keep your goals high and get after it.
    0:25:03 So all right, that’s number five, the de-risk plan.
    0:25:05 What have you got for number six?
    0:25:08 – Number six is what I call the $60 an hour rule
    0:25:09 or the three X rule.
    0:25:12 If someone can do something like a service business,
    0:25:16 whether it’s cleaning, I know you did painting,
    0:25:18 whether it’s gutters, curbs, trash cans,
    0:25:21 car detailing, yard, tree removal, all that stuff,
    0:25:23 power washing, parking lots.
    0:25:24 I’m just naming all kinds of stuff.
    0:25:29 If you can come up with one of these businesses
    0:25:32 and you can make at least $60 per hour,
    0:25:34 you can scale that.
    0:25:37 Because then you just hire out the labor
    0:25:40 at $20, $25 an hour, then you focus more
    0:25:44 on getting the new clients, you hire out the labor
    0:25:46 and that’s how you can scale those businesses,
    0:25:48 also known as nail it, then scale it, right?
    0:25:51 – Okay, so this would be like an agency model,
    0:25:53 like this is the cost of labor ratio
    0:25:54 that you would like to see.
    0:25:57 You wanna have the final price be triple your labor cost.
    0:26:00 – Exactly, so my son, for example, he just turned 18
    0:26:02 and he’s trying to figure out
    0:26:04 what he’s gonna do in life, right?
    0:26:06 And he’s been fixing phones
    0:26:07 and he’s been doing a few different things,
    0:26:09 but he’s gone to the point where
    0:26:12 he can make $100 an hour fixing phones.
    0:26:14 So now he just has to improve his marketing,
    0:26:16 he has to be able to get more clients
    0:26:19 and then he can hire people to do the driving
    0:26:21 and to do all these different things,
    0:26:23 like all the different things that we’ve been talking about
    0:26:25 that will allow him to focus on
    0:26:27 his highest and best use of time
    0:26:30 and ultimately be able to scale the business.
    0:26:32 – Yeah, this is one where in the context
    0:26:35 of SEO and online business, like, okay,
    0:26:38 based on this projected keyword volume
    0:26:41 or traffic volume, if it ends up hitting
    0:26:43 and this projected affiliate ad,
    0:26:45 it’s like really hard to kind of try to figure out,
    0:26:46 well, what’s this page you’ve gotta make
    0:26:48 if it gets to the first page of Google,
    0:26:53 let’s say it does and say it is gonna make $1,000 a year.
    0:26:55 Best case scenario, like, okay,
    0:26:57 so it wouldn’t be unreasonable to pay somebody $300
    0:26:59 to write that article for you and then
    0:27:00 allow them to repeat. – Exactly, yeah.
    0:27:02 – And it’s like a timing of cash flow, in this case,
    0:27:03 like you’re gonna earn that $1,000
    0:27:06 over the course of 12 months, hopefully, you may not.
    0:27:08 So that’s where the risk comes into play,
    0:27:10 but that’s where you can kind of pencil in,
    0:27:12 well, okay, what’s my labor cost
    0:27:13 or what’s my potential labor cost
    0:27:15 for whatever model that I’m in?
    0:27:17 – And then you start to buy back some of your time
    0:27:19 and then you’re able to do the whole
    0:27:21 think smarter, not work harder, right?
    0:27:23 You go from labor to leadership
    0:27:25 and that’s how you really go.
    0:27:27 You become the rainmaker, that’s what you focus on.
    0:27:29 And then you eventually can hire someone
    0:27:30 to help you with that marketing,
    0:27:34 but you’ve increased your customer base pretty significantly
    0:27:36 and then hopefully you have repeat customers
    0:27:37 and so on and so forth.
    0:27:40 – Rule number seven is the marketing flywheel.
    0:27:43 How can you creatively get customers for free
    0:27:45 or even get paid to acquire customers?
    0:27:47 That’s coming up along with Justin’s business idea
    0:27:49 donation and more, right after this.
    0:27:52 – Yeah, so this one, I have lots of titles for it,
    0:27:55 the marketing flywheel self-liquidation offer
    0:27:56 or break-even funnel.
    0:27:59 Russell Brunson often refers to the break-even funnel
    0:28:01 and that’s kind of how he grew ClickFunnels,
    0:28:06 was he created a webinar and spent X amount of money
    0:28:09 to get people to register for the webinar,
    0:28:12 sold the webinar for like $1,000
    0:28:14 plus six months of ClickFunnels.
    0:28:17 And the whole concept is you are,
    0:28:18 you’re making money by acquiring customers.
    0:28:21 You’re acquiring customers for free.
    0:28:23 And he talks about how he would sometimes talk
    0:28:25 to venture capitalists and they would ask him,
    0:28:27 what’s your cost to acquire customers?
    0:28:29 Like, oh, no, we acquire them for free.
    0:28:31 We make money when we acquire customers.
    0:28:33 I’m like, wait, this doesn’t work for my numbers
    0:28:36 and my algorithm and it totally throws me off.
    0:28:38 But understanding this concept,
    0:28:40 once again, I think so many people
    0:28:42 who want to get into business think,
    0:28:44 oh, I got to have this big, huge tech idea
    0:28:47 and invest millions of dollars
    0:28:49 and most businesses fail and all this stuff.
    0:28:52 And it’s like, no, like you just have to figure out
    0:28:55 one of these models that work for you.
    0:28:58 And for us right now, we’re just focused on
    0:29:01 how much does it cost us to acquire a new listener?
    0:29:04 And it took us a year to build up to this,
    0:29:06 but we’re at that break-even point.
    0:29:10 That it cost us about six to eight cents
    0:29:12 to acquire a new listener.
    0:29:14 And we’re making about six to eight cents
    0:29:16 for every new listener.
    0:29:19 So if someone listens to just one more show,
    0:29:21 we’re spending a dollar to make $2.
    0:29:23 And the goal is to keep growing that.
    0:29:25 I have these different numbers where
    0:29:28 I know we could make 10 cents per listener
    0:29:31 and even up to like 15 cents per listener.
    0:29:32 If and as we continue to do that,
    0:29:34 these numbers get better and better.
    0:29:37 And then over time, you could add on programs,
    0:29:38 different things you’re selling.
    0:29:40 We don’t have any of our own programs at this point,
    0:29:42 but we’re all ready to that break-even
    0:29:44 or make money point, right?
    0:29:47 There’s a thousand different add-ons you can make to that,
    0:29:50 to where you got your money making machine essentially, right?
    0:29:52 And that’s the whole goal of business.
    0:29:54 For every dollar you put in, you’re making $2 back,
    0:29:58 $3 back, how can we make that number bigger and bigger
    0:30:01 that every dollar we invest, we’re making more and more back?
    0:30:02 – Yeah, that’s fascinating.
    0:30:04 We’ve heard from newsletter operators.
    0:30:09 Well, if every, I mean, there’s very elaborate equations
    0:30:10 that could start to go into it.
    0:30:12 But it’s like, well, what’s a new subscriber worth to us?
    0:30:14 Does it make sense to pay $2 for a subscriber
    0:30:16 if they’re gonna open 50% of the emails
    0:30:18 and they’re gonna stay on the list for nine months
    0:30:20 and they’re gonna be exposed?
    0:30:21 Like, oh, okay, we’re gonna make $5
    0:30:23 from that one subscriber on average.
    0:30:25 So yeah, we’re happy to pay two bucks for it.
    0:30:28 And so this is, on terms of the podcast downloads,
    0:30:31 this is just, on average, we have two or three,
    0:30:34 four ads per show at this CPM.
    0:30:36 So every download is worth to us,
    0:30:38 six to eight cents or six to 10 cents.
    0:30:39 – Yep, yep.
    0:30:41 I’m constantly looking at the numbers
    0:30:43 and analyzing numbers and just seeing,
    0:30:46 oh, if we pull this one lever
    0:30:47 and we spend this much money,
    0:30:49 what does that do to our bottom line?
    0:30:50 – Yeah, that’s really interesting.
    0:30:52 Like, only very recently started doing
    0:30:54 any paid podcast promotion.
    0:30:57 And it’s interesting to look at like,
    0:30:58 the cost per download metrics
    0:31:00 or cost per subscriber metrics.
    0:31:03 Yeah, I never really thought about it that way.
    0:31:04 And then, yeah, if you have a potential guest,
    0:31:06 could you share the cost with that?
    0:31:08 ‘Cause they’re getting some promotional benefit out of it.
    0:31:10 But yeah, what platforms do you like
    0:31:11 in terms of going out and buying listeners?
    0:31:14 – So at the beginning, we had an agency that we hired
    0:31:18 that was connecting with a lot of other podcasters,
    0:31:20 but it was costing us like several dollars
    0:31:22 to get a download.
    0:31:25 Then we started going to the podcast players
    0:31:29 and we started to get a lower amount.
    0:31:31 But one of the gotchas, something you wanna watch out for
    0:31:33 is what we didn’t realize,
    0:31:35 ’cause we just didn’t know what we didn’t know,
    0:31:37 until we were starting to work with an agency
    0:31:39 to get sponsors for us,
    0:31:41 was one of these podcast players,
    0:31:42 a lot of the places they were promoting to
    0:31:45 were in countries that sponsors just being on it,
    0:31:48 they just weren’t paying for those areas.
    0:31:51 So we got to a point where we had like 20% in the US
    0:31:53 and our agency was like, that’s not gonna work.
    0:31:55 So we had to go back to the drawing.
    0:31:57 – It’s like Facebook ads, like, oh yeah, it’s cheap
    0:32:00 if you wanna advertise to a non-US audience.
    0:32:01 – Totally.
    0:32:02 – Gotcha, gotcha.
    0:32:03 – But then we found the right players
    0:32:07 and if you invest enough, certain players,
    0:32:09 the amount just goes up depending on
    0:32:11 like how many people are bidding on it, right,
    0:32:13 or buying the ads.
    0:32:16 And then there are other players that you can negotiate
    0:32:19 with the podcast player.
    0:32:21 We’ve done such a high volume at this point
    0:32:24 where we’ve gotten some of the players to come down
    0:32:27 or like, hey, we’ll keep buying in volume,
    0:32:28 we just want a good deal.
    0:32:30 We mainly buy like the US,
    0:32:31 but then they’ll throw in other places
    0:32:34 like Canada, Australia, UK.
    0:32:37 So we’ve been able to literally like 3x
    0:32:40 the amount of listeners that we would be getting with them
    0:32:42 because we’ve worked out deals, we’re buying in bulk.
    0:32:43 We know they’re good listeners,
    0:32:46 we know we’re getting paid well for them.
    0:32:47 But yeah, another one I really like,
    0:32:51 this isn’t a podcast player, but it’s called Podroll.
    0:32:55 Podroll is amazing because you can get a great CPM
    0:33:00 by allowing other podcasters to do what’s called a feed drop.
    0:33:02 I don’t wanna get too technical too into the weeds here,
    0:33:06 but doing a feed drop is where another podcaster
    0:33:10 can put their episode in your feed.
    0:33:14 And Podroll has a platform that facilitates doing this.
    0:33:16 So initially we got doing Podroll
    0:33:20 ’cause we’re like, oh, you can make $50 to $100 CPM.
    0:33:22 But what we realized is we wanted to be
    0:33:24 on the other end of that,
    0:33:28 where we’re paying $50 to $100 CPM
    0:33:31 for people to listen to our show
    0:33:34 because it sounds like a high CPM,
    0:33:36 but they’re actually listening to your show.
    0:33:38 It’s not just someone hearing a one minute ad
    0:33:42 on someone else’s show on your podcast,
    0:33:43 they’re listening to your show.
    0:33:44 So you get the downloads
    0:33:47 and then you get some people that stick with you
    0:33:48 and that’s how you can grow.
    0:33:51 So that’s been huge for us.
    0:33:52 It gets pretty exciting.
    0:33:54 Man, I know we’re talking about podcasting,
    0:33:56 but you can do this like you said with an email list.
    0:33:59 You can do it with, I know I would say a blog,
    0:34:01 I know there’s been a lot of stuff with the updates
    0:34:04 and whatnot, but it’s just all about,
    0:34:06 and I guess that gets us to our last one,
    0:34:07 which is, oh no, there’s two more.
    0:34:08 (laughs)
    0:34:11 I’ve been talking too much.
    0:34:13 Anyway, I’ll save that, but you can do this with anything.
    0:34:15 – Yeah, figuring out what that marketing flywheel is,
    0:34:18 what that self-liquidating offer may be,
    0:34:21 if that may be possible in your industry or your niche.
    0:34:23 Like how can you acquire customers for free?
    0:34:25 I think it’s a creative marketing thought experiment,
    0:34:29 if nothing else, to figure out where our customers at,
    0:34:31 how can I set this up in such a way
    0:34:33 that it doesn’t cost me anything
    0:34:34 to get that next lead into the funnel,
    0:34:36 that next person into the pipeline there.
    0:34:37 All right, that’s number seven,
    0:34:40 the marketing flywheel or the breakeven funnel.
    0:34:41 What have you got for number eight?
    0:34:43 – So number eight is you wanna understand
    0:34:47 the velocity of money and returns and how they work.
    0:34:48 And this might sound simple,
    0:34:52 but I’m telling you, most people do not understand it.
    0:34:55 In fact, I read something earlier that said,
    0:34:59 two thirds of American adults cannot pass
    0:35:02 a very basic financial test.
    0:35:04 We just don’t learn this stuff in school,
    0:35:06 but the velocity of money basically says,
    0:35:09 for example, we started flipping houses,
    0:35:13 we were making anywhere from 15 to 20%
    0:35:16 on the money that we invested into a particular house,
    0:35:19 it would take us about four months to flip a house.
    0:35:21 So there’s 12 months in a year,
    0:35:24 we could essentially turn that money three times.
    0:35:27 So essentially, if you’re making 10 to 15%
    0:35:29 and you’re doing that three times a year, that’s…
    0:35:30 – It’s probably more than that.
    0:35:32 – I think, yeah, I messed up these numbers.
    0:35:33 – 45 to 60.
    0:35:35 – Yeah, 15 to 20% are the numbers.
    0:35:38 You make 15 to 20% on your money
    0:35:40 and you do that three times a year,
    0:35:44 you’re making 45 to 60% annualized.
    0:35:46 – Yeah, nominally, I’m sure there’s like
    0:35:48 some other velocity time component
    0:35:50 or time value element to it too.
    0:35:52 But right, it’s like, okay,
    0:35:53 how quickly can I get a return on it
    0:35:56 and how often can I lather and repeat?
    0:35:57 Is that my understanding?
    0:35:58 – Yeah, exactly.
    0:36:00 We were making 15 to 20% per house,
    0:36:02 we were doing that three times a year, given money,
    0:36:06 and that was 45 to 60% for the year.
    0:36:09 So what we did, I mentioned this JV partner,
    0:36:12 I went to this guy, this guy had deep pockets,
    0:36:14 millions of dollars, knew the real estate game,
    0:36:15 was just kind of retired.
    0:36:17 And I said, hey, here’s our track record,
    0:36:19 here’s all the houses, here are the numbers we’re getting.
    0:36:21 Would you be interested in putting up the money
    0:36:22 and we split the profit?
    0:36:24 And he took a look at it and he’s like,
    0:36:25 heck yeah, it took a little more than that,
    0:36:27 but essentially that’s what it came down to.
    0:36:29 And he essentially gave us a blank check.
    0:36:32 So we now knew we had the systems to buy the houses,
    0:36:34 we had the systems to fix up the houses,
    0:36:37 we just needed more money, and that was our money.
    0:36:39 And that’s the other thing that helped us really grow.
    0:36:42 ‘Cause his return, all he did was he’s like, okay,
    0:36:45 so I’m gonna make anywhere from 22 and a half
    0:36:48 to 30% annualized, that’s a heck of a lot better
    0:36:50 than what I’m making and anything else I’m doing.
    0:36:53 Since that time, I’ve talked to a lot of different people
    0:36:55 and done this with a lot of different businesses.
    0:36:59 We talked to a guy that had like a grass-fed beef business,
    0:37:01 so he raised cows essentially.
    0:37:04 And he was like, oh, I wanna do more of this,
    0:37:05 I just don’t have the money.
    0:37:07 And I’m like, okay, how much does it cost you to buy a cow?
    0:37:09 How much does it cost to feed the cow?
    0:37:12 Like, what are all the expenses that go into that cow?
    0:37:14 How long does it take till the cow gets slaughtered?
    0:37:17 I hope anyone listening, it gets too offended by this,
    0:37:20 but how long does it take till you’re able
    0:37:21 to essentially sell the cow?
    0:37:23 We broke the numbers down
    0:37:26 and it was like 100% annualized returns.
    0:37:28 I’m like, dude, I’ll give you all the money you want.
    0:37:31 And I said, a better thing to do though
    0:37:33 is now that you know that you can make 100%
    0:37:36 annualized return on the money invested,
    0:37:38 just go borrow it at 10%.
    0:37:39 – Okay.
    0:37:41 – And then you’re essentially making 90, it’s arbitrage,
    0:37:43 right, you’re taking other people’s money,
    0:37:44 you have the system in place
    0:37:47 and you’re making a killer return on that money.
    0:37:49 – Yeah, this is an interesting one.
    0:37:50 And I think about it,
    0:37:53 most often in the context of an e-commerce business
    0:37:55 or a physical product business,
    0:37:57 okay, I’m gonna buy 500 bucks of inventory,
    0:37:59 sell it next month for 600.
    0:38:01 And now I’ve got $600 worth of inventory
    0:38:02 and I can sell it for 750.
    0:38:05 And then kind of like, continue to level up
    0:38:06 and multiply your money.
    0:38:08 But like, how, you would think about it
    0:38:11 in context of inventory turns coming from the car business,
    0:38:13 like how much inventory is in our parts department right now?
    0:38:15 It’s always like the dealers wanted to know
    0:38:17 like how many millions of dollars are we sitting on parts?
    0:38:18 Like, what has it sold lately?
    0:38:20 Do we really need this sitting on the shelf?
    0:38:23 Like, could that money be better deployed elsewhere?
    0:38:25 And it’s like, okay, this could really apply
    0:38:28 to any business that has an investment component
    0:38:31 to a cost of labor or a cost of goods type of aspect to it,
    0:38:33 like cost of houses in a flipping type of business.
    0:38:36 – You’re right, e-commerce is a great example.
    0:38:37 You just essentially run the numbers.
    0:38:39 If the numbers make sense
    0:38:41 and you can either bring on a JD partner,
    0:38:43 if you don’t wanna take on the risk,
    0:38:46 but usually you’ll find that the cool thing about business
    0:38:49 is if and when, like you said, it’s hard to get started.
    0:38:50 It’s hard to get that inertia,
    0:38:51 hard to get that thing going,
    0:38:53 put that thing up into orbit.
    0:38:56 But once you do, a business typically will pay you
    0:38:59 significantly more than you’re ever gonna make
    0:39:02 in any other kind of investment,
    0:39:06 which then allows you to get the investors coming to you.
    0:39:07 That’s what I believe.
    0:39:09 And I don’t think most people should go out
    0:39:10 and raise a ton of money
    0:39:13 unless you’ve experienced in that kind of thing.
    0:39:14 But if you’re not that experienced in raising money
    0:39:16 and growing a huge business,
    0:39:18 now at first, then scale it, right?
    0:39:20 Go start that e-commerce business,
    0:39:24 go start that SaaS business, whatever that thing is,
    0:39:26 and then start to get some proven numbers.
    0:39:27 And if you can come to someone like me
    0:39:30 and you can show, hey, these are the things I’m selling,
    0:39:33 this is how much I’m making, these are the returns,
    0:39:35 I’ll give you the money, no problem.
    0:39:36 No problem all day long.
    0:39:38 – All right, well, you may be getting some calls after this.
    0:39:39 – Sounds good.
    0:39:42 I’ll collaborate Velocity of Money number nine
    0:39:44 on the nine rules of scale, go for it.
    0:39:48 – So number nine is the aggregation of marginal gains.
    0:39:51 Also referred to as like the compound effect,
    0:39:53 but essentially the aggregation of marginal gains,
    0:39:56 many people know about it from the book Atomic Habits,
    0:39:58 James Clear and his blog.
    0:40:02 It essentially is from the British cycling team
    0:40:05 back in the day for like a hundred years, they were horrible.
    0:40:08 They only won like one gold medal in that time
    0:40:11 and they brought in this guy
    0:40:14 to be the new manager of the cycling team.
    0:40:17 So his name was Dave Brelsford.
    0:40:18 The way he did things is most people came in there like,
    0:40:21 all right, we’re gonna make this huge improvement
    0:40:23 by doing this one thing, it’s gonna change everything
    0:40:25 and it just wasn’t working out.
    0:40:28 So he was all about this thing that we’re talking about,
    0:40:31 the aggregation of marginal gains.
    0:40:34 And he just said, if we can take every little component
    0:40:37 of what it takes to be good at cycling
    0:40:40 or to make you faster, whether it has to do with the bike
    0:40:42 or the athlete, then we’re just gonna do that.
    0:40:45 We’re gonna make 1% improvement each day
    0:40:48 as much as we can in all these different categories.
    0:40:50 And within five years,
    0:40:52 the British cycling team just started dominating.
    0:40:54 They started winning almost every gold medal.
    0:40:57 They started winning Tour de France’s,
    0:41:00 which they hadn’t done previously in that hundred years.
    0:41:01 And it just changed everything
    0:41:04 and he was just focused on the one small thing.
    0:41:09 That’s what I would invite everyone who’s listening to do.
    0:41:10 We’re in the information age.
    0:41:12 You’re literally listening to a podcast.
    0:41:14 There’s so much information out there.
    0:41:17 I love like swipe and deploy, see what people are doing
    0:41:19 and just be like, oh, let’s try that.
    0:41:21 It’s the different industry, but I can try it here.
    0:41:23 We try it out, we test it out,
    0:41:24 we keep going with what’s working.
    0:41:27 We keep trying to improve the things that aren’t working.
    0:41:29 I’m constantly talking to my team
    0:41:31 about how can we improve the podcast?
    0:41:33 How can we get more numbers?
    0:41:34 How can we improve everything that we’re doing
    0:41:36 just little by little?
    0:41:39 And as you do those things over time,
    0:41:41 you’ll see a huge difference in your business.
    0:41:43 – Yeah, there’s 1% improvement every day.
    0:41:46 It’s like, it doesn’t make a huge difference.
    0:41:47 It may not even be noticeable,
    0:41:50 but you know, over time, it really does start to compound.
    0:41:53 And that’s like Einstein’s eight wonder of the world,
    0:41:54 compound interest and all this stuff
    0:41:56 where it really does start to lead
    0:41:59 to some exponential growth over time.
    0:42:01 But the trick is doing it consistently,
    0:42:05 making it a habit, some, the compound effect for number nine.
    0:42:08 Let’s move on to round two,
    0:42:10 the donate a business idea round.
    0:42:11 What have you got for us here?
    0:42:13 – So I have business ideas every day.
    0:42:16 As I’m sure you do as well.
    0:42:18 But the idea, and it’s related to all the things
    0:42:19 that I’ve been working on combined
    0:42:21 with different things that have been happening in my life.
    0:42:23 So recently we traveled the world for nine months.
    0:42:28 As you know, we were in Rome just a couple of months ago.
    0:42:30 And as we were in Europe and these different places,
    0:42:32 we were doing all these tours and some were okay,
    0:42:34 but some of them were kind of long and a little boring.
    0:42:36 But it was almost like a necessary evil.
    0:42:38 I felt like I’m glad I’m doing this tour,
    0:42:40 but I’m kind of bored and it’s a little long.
    0:42:43 And I thought, you know, there needs to be something
    0:42:45 called 10 minute tours or something like that.
    0:42:47 And I know they have audio tours,
    0:42:49 but I was like, what if there was like a podcast
    0:42:50 that had like a tour,
    0:42:53 then my mind got going to like a history lesson.
    0:42:54 And maybe it’s longer than 10 minutes.
    0:42:55 ‘Cause now that I’m thinking about the ads
    0:42:57 that you can put in, maybe it’s a little longer
    0:42:59 so we can put more ads in.
    0:43:02 But you have 30 minute to 40 minute lessons
    0:43:05 and there’s so many lessons you could do on history,
    0:43:06 just in Italy alone.
    0:43:08 ‘Cause we were in Italy for like 38 days.
    0:43:09 I’m like, you could do a lesson on that,
    0:43:11 on that, on that, on that, on that.
    0:43:13 Part of the reason why I had this idea too
    0:43:15 is I know another guy who has a history podcast,
    0:43:17 but he does it himself.
    0:43:20 And his returns are bigger than ours.
    0:43:22 Just because there’s a lot of business podcasts
    0:43:25 and he invests in his podcast
    0:43:26 and the amount of people that stick
    0:43:27 and the amount of money he has to spend
    0:43:30 to get more listeners are significantly higher
    0:43:32 than what ours are.
    0:43:33 So I was taking all these ideas.
    0:43:35 I was like, I don’t know a lot about history,
    0:43:36 but I know there’s a lot of people out there
    0:43:38 who do know a lot about history
    0:43:39 and they’re probably not making a ton of money.
    0:43:42 I thought you could reach out to them
    0:43:45 and then Tara made an ad for our podcast the other day.
    0:43:47 And we got this great guy with a great voiceover voice.
    0:43:51 Just, you know, just sounded amazing.
    0:43:53 And I was like, you get the person who writes these things,
    0:43:56 get the person who’s gonna record them
    0:43:58 and then just work with different podcast players
    0:44:00 and promoting these.
    0:44:03 So this guy, once again, he spends all day creating this.
    0:44:05 You could tell he works really hard on them.
    0:44:07 I was like, man, you could put this thing together,
    0:44:08 bring the people together.
    0:44:11 You could pay them equity, so there’s no cost.
    0:44:12 Or if you have a little bit of money,
    0:44:14 you could just pay them whatever they would get paid.
    0:44:16 It didn’t ultimately make more money.
    0:44:19 – Yeah, or it may even be like an AI voiceover artist.
    0:44:21 – 100% yeah, I was thinking of all that too.
    0:44:24 I was like, you could probably do some AI stuff.
    0:44:27 You could probably do, especially like AI online
    0:44:29 is kind of tough because you have Google
    0:44:31 like crawling it and everything.
    0:44:34 But podcasting, no one’s crawling podcasting, right?
    0:44:37 So you could even create these lessons through AI.
    0:44:38 You could record them yourself
    0:44:40 or you could have someone else record them.
    0:44:43 But then the same idea, like for every dollar you spend,
    0:44:44 you could easily make two back.
    0:44:47 And you could essentially have this thing be,
    0:44:48 you could be a big part of it
    0:44:50 or you could just kind of outsource it to different people.
    0:44:53 And anyway, I’m just sitting there at the Coliseum
    0:44:57 at the forum and I’m like, this guy’s kind of boring,
    0:44:59 but people need these lessons.
    0:45:00 They’re incredibly valuable.
    0:45:02 And I think it would just take off.
    0:45:05 Anyway, if I had more time, I’d do it, but.
    0:45:07 – Yeah, that’s the business idea donation
    0:45:10 audio history lesson or audio walking tours.
    0:45:12 We’ve been on some that were incredible.
    0:45:14 We had this British guy in Barcelona
    0:45:17 who was just like so into the history of the city.
    0:45:20 And here we’re going from the fifth century to the 15th.
    0:45:21 – That’s awesome.
    0:45:22 – Right across the street from, you know,
    0:45:23 and he was really into it.
    0:45:26 And he told us that the FCE Barcelona logo
    0:45:27 was like those four red stripes.
    0:45:30 He’s like, that was like the king’s bloody fingers,
    0:45:31 like running down a-
    0:45:32 – Oh man.
    0:45:35 – Dude, I will never look at that logo the same way again.
    0:45:37 And then we’ve had other ones where you’re kind of like,
    0:45:39 yeah, I’m getting something here,
    0:45:41 but he’s the bar now that everything else
    0:45:42 is measured against.
    0:45:43 And it’s interesting.
    0:45:45 But yeah, this could be an interesting one
    0:45:48 hiring historians to write or repurpose lessons.
    0:45:49 Maybe they already have it.
    0:45:51 Could I license these from there?
    0:45:52 And then hiring a voiceover artist
    0:45:55 or using some AI voiceover to, you know,
    0:45:57 be the voice of your podcast
    0:45:58 might be interesting to play around with.
    0:46:00 – And you could do the same thing with science
    0:46:01 or any subject, right?
    0:46:05 It goes on and on, but just, yeah, look into mine.
    0:46:06 – Yeah, yeah, you gotta scratch your own itch
    0:46:08 from these boring tours.
    0:46:10 – Yeah, exactly.
    0:46:11 – All right, round three is the triple threat.
    0:46:14 This is, first off, a marketing tactic
    0:46:15 that’s working for you right now.
    0:46:16 Could be this pod roll stuff,
    0:46:18 could be something else you got in mind.
    0:46:20 – Yeah, I mean, I think I’ve kind of went through that.
    0:46:23 It’s just working with the podcast players
    0:46:25 to promote the show.
    0:46:27 And we have our numbers pretty dialed in.
    0:46:29 Like I’m pretty aware of what it costs us
    0:46:30 for each pod player.
    0:46:31 If that doesn’t work, I reach out to them
    0:46:32 and try to negotiate a better deal
    0:46:34 or we focus on other ones.
    0:46:36 And then from that, like I said,
    0:46:38 we’re gonna leverage it into working more
    0:46:40 with podcast swaps and all that.
    0:46:42 So that’s kind of our main focus.
    0:46:44 At some point, we do wanna launch a program,
    0:46:47 but we’re just trying to hang in as long as we can.
    0:46:48 ‘Cause once we do that,
    0:46:49 it’s a whole nother thing to take care of.
    0:46:51 We’re just trying to generate a bunch of cash
    0:46:54 ’cause cash will allow us to hire more people
    0:46:56 and just keep that flywheel going.
    0:46:57 – Right, yeah, if you can get somebody to tune in
    0:47:00 for multiple episodes, they join the email list,
    0:47:02 maybe they eventually buy the to be determined
    0:47:04 future product.
    0:47:04 – Totally, yeah.
    0:47:05 – There’s a lot of good things that can happen.
    0:47:07 – And it could be an affiliate marketing
    0:47:07 at the beginning, right?
    0:47:09 There’s so many different options.
    0:47:12 – A new or new to you tool that you’re loving right now.
    0:47:15 – For me, this might sound kind of boring
    0:47:17 and not that exciting.
    0:47:19 I just love my Google calendar.
    0:47:22 That is my second brain.
    0:47:24 Anytime I have an idea, a thought,
    0:47:25 I put it in my calendar.
    0:47:26 If I have to do, I put it in there.
    0:47:28 And then I just either delete them,
    0:47:30 like eliminate, automate or delegate.
    0:47:32 That’s my list, right?
    0:47:34 So every day I’ll have my list of top priorities.
    0:47:36 I’ll check it out the day before,
    0:47:39 make sure it’s what I wanna do for the next day.
    0:47:39 And I’ll either delete it,
    0:47:42 I’ll move it over like sometimes months away.
    0:47:43 Sometimes it felt like a great idea
    0:47:45 and then it’s not anymore.
    0:47:46 But I’m always trying to figure out
    0:47:48 how can I systematize this, how can I do it?
    0:47:51 But I use the Google calendar but not that sexy
    0:47:52 but I use it all the time.
    0:47:54 It’s my calendar of where to go,
    0:47:56 where to be, what to do.
    0:47:57 It’s what I live by.
    0:47:59 I never wake up and don’t know what to do
    0:48:01 ’cause it’s always there.
    0:48:01 – Very good.
    0:48:04 Not a new tool but a very useful one at that.
    0:48:05 So I like that one as well.
    0:48:07 It’s like, and I find myself too.
    0:48:09 I’ll block off that time and be like,
    0:48:10 it’s not important right now.
    0:48:12 I’ll punt that off until next month.
    0:48:13 But it’s in there.
    0:48:13 It’s kind of a reminder.
    0:48:14 – Yes.
    0:48:15 – You thought this was important at one point.
    0:48:16 – Exactly.
    0:48:17 – Is it still?
    0:48:20 All right, so that is the tool
    0:48:22 and a favorite book from the last 12 months.
    0:48:24 – So in getting ready for this,
    0:48:29 I re-listened to the book Procrastination on Purpose
    0:48:31 by Rory Vaden.
    0:48:33 He also has a good TED Talk on it
    0:48:35 and he kind of talks about the focus funnel
    0:48:38 and he does go over, I don’t know about you
    0:48:39 but sometimes I’ll teach something
    0:48:40 or talk about something
    0:48:43 and I almost forget where I learned it from.
    0:48:44 So as I listened to that again,
    0:48:48 I was like, oh yeah, he talked about the eliminate,
    0:48:51 the automate, the delegate
    0:48:54 and then he goes as far as to procrastinate on purpose,
    0:48:58 right, if it’s not a priority now and then concentrate.
    0:48:59 That was a pretty good read, I thought.
    0:49:03 He talks about ROTI return on time invested,
    0:49:06 which is a lot about what we’ve been talking about
    0:49:09 and how that’s like the best investment you can make
    0:49:11 is working on your business instead of just in your business
    0:49:14 and it’ll pay you back dividends for time to come.
    0:49:15 – Yeah, return on time.
    0:49:17 You start off doing the 10 dollar an hour things
    0:49:19 and you graduate to the $100 an hour things
    0:49:22 and then hopefully you graduate to the $1,000 an hour things
    0:49:23 and I like this.
    0:49:25 I have not read this book Procrastination on Purpose
    0:49:28 but we’ll link that up in the show notes for this episode.
    0:49:30 You can just follow the link in the episode description
    0:49:32 and I’ll get right over there.
    0:49:33 Millionaire University.
    0:49:35 Justin Williams, thank you so much for joining me
    0:49:37 and be sure to check out the podcast,
    0:49:40 check out the website at millionaireuniversity.com.
    0:49:44 Any parting words of guidance before we wrap up here?
    0:49:46 – I would just say take action, that’s what everyone says
    0:49:50 but take action and then after you’ve taken action,
    0:49:52 don’t just keep taking action.
    0:49:55 Start to think about how can I use leverage?
    0:49:56 How can I grow?
    0:50:00 How can I implement the things that we’re talking about today
    0:50:01 so that you can really get to the point
    0:50:04 where you’re making more money with less time
    0:50:06 and once again, I want that to sound like cheesy
    0:50:09 or like woo-woo or fake, but you really can.
    0:50:11 The same things that helped us get to the point
    0:50:13 where we were flipping 100 houses a year,
    0:50:15 also gave us more time because if we were the bottleneck,
    0:50:16 if we were the one doing it,
    0:50:18 there was no way that would have happened,
    0:50:20 same with our education business.
    0:50:22 So just take action but then start thinking about
    0:50:25 how can I take that next level of action
    0:50:27 that will give me to that next level
    0:50:29 and just keep living a life on purpose?
    0:50:32 – Yeah, it’s such an interesting distinction between
    0:50:33 how can I make extra money, right?
    0:50:35 I’m gonna go solve this problem
    0:50:37 and then flipping the switch to be like,
    0:50:39 how can I be a business owner?
    0:50:43 And trying to fire yourself from the doing stuff
    0:50:46 and promoting yourself to the CEO role
    0:50:47 and it’s a different set of questions.
    0:50:49 I think it’s really interesting stuff.
    0:50:52 So again, MillionaireUniversity.com, check out the podcast.
    0:50:53 I was an early guest on there.
    0:50:56 Brian was my interviewer for that one.
    0:50:58 I think that’s a good one to start with.
    0:51:01 But big thanks to Justin for sharing his insight.
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    0:51:05 for helping make this content free for everyone.
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    0:51:11 for all the latest offers from our sponsors in one place.
    0:51:13 Thank you for supporting the advertisers
    0:51:14 that support the show.
    0:51:15 That is it for me.
    0:51:17 Thank you so much for tuning in.
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    0:51:24 Hey, I think you’ll like this episode.
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    0:51:27 Until next time, let’s go out there
    0:51:28 and make something happen.
    0:51:29 And I’ll catch you in the next edition
    0:51:31 of the Side Hustle Show.
    0:51:32 Hustle on.

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  • 619: $100/hr Organizing Other People’s Pictures

    AI transcript
    0:00:04 – 85 bucks an hour organizing other people’s photos.
    0:00:06 What’s up, what’s up, Nick Lofer here.
    0:00:08 Welcome to The Signed Hustle Show,
    0:00:09 part of the entrepreneur podcast network.
    0:00:12 It’s the business podcast you can actually apply.
    0:00:17 And on the docket today, a sign hustle I’ve never heard of
    0:00:20 that can pay $5,000 plus per project.
    0:00:21 You’re gonna love it.
    0:00:23 It’s photo organizing.
    0:00:25 And apparently it’s in high demand.
    0:00:27 My guest says she’s got more than enough work.
    0:00:28 Keep yourself busy full time.
    0:00:31 And it’s built into a six-week business process
    0:00:34 from mymemoryfile.com.
    0:00:37 Cheryl DeFrank, welcome to The Signed Hustle Show.
    0:00:38 – Thanks so much for having me, Nick.
    0:00:39 I’m thrilled to be here.
    0:00:40 – Me as well.
    0:00:41 Looking forward to this one.
    0:00:44 Stick around, we’re gonna learn how all of this works,
    0:00:46 who it might be a good fit for,
    0:00:48 and how to get this thing off the ground.
    0:00:51 But I wanna talk about this transition moment from,
    0:00:54 really, there are people who would pay me to do this,
    0:00:56 to actually landing that first client.
    0:01:01 Walk me through the early days of my memory file business.
    0:01:02 – It was quite a surprise to me.
    0:01:05 I was kind of in between jobs,
    0:01:06 trying to figure out what my next thing was gonna be.
    0:01:09 I was just helping a friend organize her digital photos,
    0:01:11 all her photos on her phone and her computer.
    0:01:13 And she just couldn’t handle it and was overwhelmed.
    0:01:15 And so I was just helping her out,
    0:01:16 just getting things organized.
    0:01:18 And she said to me, she said,
    0:01:19 “You should do this as a job.”
    0:01:21 And I thought, that’s crazy.
    0:01:22 That’s not a job.
    0:01:23 That’s not a thing.
    0:01:25 So I kind of dismissed it.
    0:01:27 And I just happened to be talking to my sister
    0:01:30 who lives in a different state.
    0:01:31 It’s crazy idea that my friend had.
    0:01:34 And my sister said, “Oh yeah, I have a friend that does that.”
    0:01:37 And I just thought, what in the world,
    0:01:39 that there is actually somebody who does this?
    0:01:40 – Yeah, this is a thing.
    0:01:41 – This is a thing.
    0:01:43 At least this woman has figured out how to do this.
    0:01:45 And then my sister said to me,
    0:01:47 “Yeah, and my friend who does this
    0:01:49 is a member of an organization,
    0:01:51 a trade association of photo organizers.”
    0:01:53 I thought, well, that’s crazy that there’s not only one,
    0:01:55 but apparently there’s more than one.
    0:01:57 – So you’re gonna have to have its own association, yeah.
    0:01:59 – Exactly, to have their own association.
    0:02:01 So obviously I got in touch with this friend of my sister
    0:02:04 who put me in touch with the organization,
    0:02:05 which is called the photo managers.
    0:02:07 And the rest is history.
    0:02:09 As soon as I kind of decided I was so excited,
    0:02:11 I learned kind of the potential.
    0:02:13 I talked to other photo organizers.
    0:02:15 I decided to kind of go with it.
    0:02:18 And pretty much from the get-go,
    0:02:21 as soon as I talk to people and tell them what I do,
    0:02:22 the reaction is always,
    0:02:24 “Oh my gosh, I need to hire you.”
    0:02:28 I had no idea that I could hire somebody to do this.
    0:02:29 They’re just thrilled.
    0:02:32 And granted, not everybody turns into a client, of course,
    0:02:35 but the number of people who are just so excited and thrilled
    0:02:38 to know they could hire somebody to do it is the same thing.
    0:02:41 We’re all capable of cleaning our own homes,
    0:02:42 but many of us don’t want to,
    0:02:44 or we just don’t have the bandwidth to do it.
    0:02:46 And this is a much, much bigger project,
    0:02:48 a much more emotional project for many people.
    0:02:51 It creates so much stress for them,
    0:02:53 knowing that their photos are in the attic
    0:02:56 and have them forbid if the house burns down,
    0:02:58 or, “Gosh, I wish I could find that picture
    0:03:01 of my great-grandmother,” or, “What happens?
    0:03:05 I’m so worried that my phone’s gonna fall in the toilet
    0:03:07 and I’m gonna lose all the pictures of my kids.”
    0:03:08 And they’re just so thrilled to know
    0:03:10 that there’s somebody that will help them with it.
    0:03:13 A lot of times, I’ll be at like a cocktail party or something
    0:03:14 where everyone says, “Oh, what do you do?
    0:03:15 What do you do?
    0:03:16 What do you do?”
    0:03:17 And, “Oh, I’m a lawyer, okay, great.”
    0:03:19 Or, “Oh, I’m a whatever, okay, great.
    0:03:21 Oh, I’m a photo organizer.”
    0:03:24 And everybody stops.
    0:03:27 Like, I mean, they’re just so curious and excited and so on.
    0:03:29 So, it has been a great ride.
    0:03:30 It has been a great career.
    0:03:32 – It’s fascinating, ’cause right,
    0:03:34 I mean, we’re 600 episodes into this show
    0:03:35 and I never heard of it as a thing.
    0:03:39 There’s this education component in the marketplace
    0:03:41 that you could hire somebody like Cheryl
    0:03:45 to come and help you out with this heavy anxiety feeling
    0:03:46 of, “How do I digitize?
    0:03:48 How do I back this stuff up?
    0:03:48 How do I organize?”
    0:03:51 Like, there is a lot of emotion surrounding that
    0:03:54 and a level of trust and like, “Wow, would somebody else
    0:03:56 do it the way that I would want it done?”
    0:03:57 And all of that.
    0:03:59 So, you find the photo managers.
    0:04:01 There’s a professional organization.
    0:04:03 And we had another guest who he was talking about.
    0:04:04 He’s starting a software business.
    0:04:06 He’s like, “If it is a big enough industry
    0:04:09 to have its own association, it’s worth going after.”
    0:04:11 It’s more niche than that, maybe not.
    0:04:12 But what happens from that point?
    0:04:14 Your sister says, “I’ve got a friend of mine
    0:04:15 who’s doing this.”
    0:04:17 From that point to first paying a customer
    0:04:20 or practicing for free first with another friend.
    0:04:22 Like, how do you go from zero to one here?
    0:04:23 It was pretty quick.
    0:04:25 The friend that I was helping who had this initial idea,
    0:04:28 who I will always credit to me being in this business.
    0:04:32 So, I did her photos for free to kind of get some confidence
    0:04:34 and just kind of see how it worked
    0:04:37 or if I was able to, really.
    0:04:40 And then I just started talking to friends.
    0:04:43 And my first actual paying client was another friend
    0:04:45 who just said, “Hey, can you help me out
    0:04:46 with the photos on my phone?
    0:04:47 Because they’re such a mess.
    0:04:48 I know I’ve got so many duplicates.
    0:04:51 Everybody has tons of duplicates.”
    0:04:52 It was a relatively small project,
    0:04:55 but I helped her out and she was grateful.
    0:04:58 And then she just started talking to other people.
    0:05:02 A lot of people would say to start with friends and family.
    0:05:04 And that’s a good idea.
    0:05:05 I mean, they obviously will already kind of have
    0:05:06 a certain amount of faith in you
    0:05:08 and already want to support you.
    0:05:10 But it can also be a little bit hard
    0:05:11 to work with friends and family.
    0:05:14 So, I kind of started spreading the word
    0:05:15 as quickly as possible.
    0:05:17 I’m on a neighborhood listserv.
    0:05:19 So, which is kind of like next to them.
    0:05:20 It’s basically an email listserv.
    0:05:23 All the families in my kid’s school are on a listserv.
    0:05:25 All the people that belong to our pool
    0:05:27 are on another listserv and so on.
    0:05:29 So, you’ve got all these different kind of groups.
    0:05:32 Either I would post something about my services
    0:05:34 and sometimes there’s rules about self-promotion,
    0:05:35 but either I would post something
    0:05:38 or a friend would post something for me.
    0:05:40 Kind of maybe even a scripted thing like,
    0:05:42 “Hey, you guys wouldn’t believe this person I found
    0:05:45 to organize all your photos and give her a call.”
    0:05:47 And of course now, years later,
    0:05:49 my previous clients will post things
    0:05:50 on their own listservs.
    0:05:53 So, just the word kind of spreads
    0:05:57 and the phone hasn’t really stopped ringing in 10 years
    0:05:59 based on just kind of word of mouth.
    0:06:01 I always say like, someone told me early on,
    0:06:03 and this is probably true in every business,
    0:06:06 someone told me early on to put your company name
    0:06:08 and kind of a little tagline in what you do
    0:06:11 at the bottom of every single email you write,
    0:06:13 no matter who you’re sending it to,
    0:06:15 whether it’s a business email or not.
    0:06:16 Yeah, and it’s not a new concept,
    0:06:20 but in my case, because it is so unique,
    0:06:21 I’ll send an email to somebody
    0:06:24 about my son’s La Crosse game or something
    0:06:26 or La Crosse team and they’ll see what I’ll do
    0:06:29 and they’ll write me back having nothing to do with La Crosse,
    0:06:31 but say, “Wait, what is that you do?
    0:06:32 I see you’re a photo worker.”
    0:06:33 Like, “What’s that?”
    0:06:35 And then might turn into a job,
    0:06:36 might turn into a project.
    0:06:37 – So conversation starter of nothing else
    0:06:38 and we’ve talked about that.
    0:06:39 – Absolutely is.
    0:06:41 – That email signature space underutilized,
    0:06:43 marketing real estate in some cases.
    0:06:44 – Exactly.
    0:06:48 – I was assuming this was going to be almost all digital,
    0:06:49 but when starting locally,
    0:06:51 I get maybe it is in person.
    0:06:52 So it’s that box in the attic.
    0:06:54 It’s like the physical pictures
    0:06:57 and so does it need to be kind of a local radius for it?
    0:06:58 – It’s both.
    0:06:59 It’s really both.
    0:07:02 The three main areas of photo organizing.
    0:07:04 Number one is the print photos.
    0:07:06 These are usually maybe older families
    0:07:08 that still have print photos in the attic.
    0:07:09 You know, it’s a mess.
    0:07:10 They’ve been hiding up there for years
    0:07:14 and so they’ll give me the boxes of print photos
    0:07:16 for me to organize and sort
    0:07:18 and usually it’s chronologically.
    0:07:19 For the most part,
    0:07:21 because there is a physical exchange there,
    0:07:22 those are usually local clients.
    0:07:26 But I’ve had people mail me boxes and boxes of photos
    0:07:27 from other places.
    0:07:28 So that’s one area.
    0:07:31 And then the other area is digital photo organizing,
    0:07:33 which is again, the photos on the phone
    0:07:34 and the hard drives
    0:07:35 and all those little camera cards
    0:07:37 that we have in all kinds of drawers around the house
    0:07:38 and so on.
    0:07:41 That clients also have no idea where everything is
    0:07:43 or what it’s on these hard drives.
    0:07:46 So in that case, again, it certainly can be local
    0:07:49 but then you can have people either send me hard drives
    0:07:52 or sometimes for instance,
    0:07:55 and we’ll log into their online storage.
    0:07:57 So for instance, I can log into a person’s iCloud
    0:07:59 or a person’s Google photos
    0:08:01 or something obviously with their permission
    0:08:03 and organize straight online
    0:08:05 and never meet the client in person.
    0:08:06 And then the third aspect,
    0:08:08 which is kind of one of the main areas is scanning
    0:08:10 or digitizing photos.
    0:08:12 There are certain photo organizers that just do that.
    0:08:14 So they just do scanning
    0:08:16 and they don’t really even do the sorting process.
    0:08:19 So there’s lots of different aspects.
    0:08:21 And then there’s other kind of offshoots
    0:08:22 like just creating photo books.
    0:08:24 There are certain organizers,
    0:08:25 their specialty is creating photo books
    0:08:29 for all kinds of different events or slide shows,
    0:08:30 kind of anything having to do with photos
    0:08:35 that a lot of people either just have no idea how to do
    0:08:38 or don’t wanna spend the time figuring it out.
    0:08:41 Or the other thing too is working with your own photos,
    0:08:42 whatever you’re doing,
    0:08:43 whether you’re sorting them,
    0:08:44 whether you’re creating a slideshow,
    0:08:47 trying to pick the photos for the slideshow
    0:08:48 is a very emotional process
    0:08:50 when you’re working with your own photos.
    0:08:53 So what I tell clients, which is true,
    0:08:55 is there’s no emotion for me.
    0:08:57 So I can do it much, much faster
    0:09:00 and I’m not reliving my son’s three-year birthday party
    0:09:02 in the process and so on.
    0:09:04 – Yeah, it takes three times as long
    0:09:06 as you’re going through everything again.
    0:09:06 – Right, right.
    0:09:07 – All right.
    0:09:10 – So yeah, so there’s a variety of different ways,
    0:09:12 different things you can do in the business.
    0:09:14 – Was there anybody else doing it in your neighborhood
    0:09:16 or was it a blue ocean when you were starting out?
    0:09:17 – There were definitely people locally.
    0:09:19 When I first joined the photo managers,
    0:09:21 that was 10 years ago,
    0:09:22 they put me in touch with some people
    0:09:24 that were in my local area.
    0:09:25 I’m in near Washington, DC.
    0:09:27 So there’s kind of the tri-state,
    0:09:29 DC, Maryland and Virginia area.
    0:09:31 So they did, they put me in touch with a few other people
    0:09:33 and we would get together periodically, locally,
    0:09:36 just to kind of compare notes and just support each other
    0:09:37 and so on.
    0:09:40 And one of them is now still one of my closest friends.
    0:09:42 She lives about 20 minutes away and we see each other
    0:09:43 but we text daily, kind of,
    0:09:45 “Hey, what would you do in this situation?”
    0:09:46 And so on.
    0:09:48 Actually, one of the nice things about the photo managers
    0:09:51 is they will create regional groups.
    0:09:54 We actually now meet once every two months
    0:09:56 with people in the Mid-Atlantic region,
    0:09:59 obviously by Zoom, but just kind of compare notes
    0:10:00 and ask each other questions,
    0:10:02 share stories about projects and so on.
    0:10:05 – All right, I looked up photo organizing near me
    0:10:09 and sure enough, this company has got 29 five-star Google
    0:10:11 reviews, they’ve been in business for a while,
    0:10:13 like somebody is doing it.
    0:10:15 It’s interesting, but it doesn’t seem too, too cluttered
    0:10:17 ’cause I think the third result is Yelp
    0:10:19 and it says the best photographers in Sammamish.
    0:10:22 Like, well, that’s not exactly what I’m looking for here.
    0:10:23 That’s a different skill set.
    0:10:24 – Right, right.
    0:10:27 The good news, the reality is that you’re right.
    0:10:29 It’s still not saturated at all.
    0:10:31 Even in New York City or major metropolitan areas,
    0:10:33 there may be several, at least members
    0:10:36 of the photo managers organization doing it.
    0:10:38 And there are some professional photographers
    0:10:40 who I’ve seen who are getting into it,
    0:10:42 who may not be members of the association,
    0:10:44 but there are people getting into it,
    0:10:48 but there is definitely plenty of business to go around.
    0:10:52 I mean, I can’t stress enough that even in our local area,
    0:10:56 there is absolutely no feeling of competition
    0:10:57 or competitiveness.
    0:10:59 It is really very collaborative.
    0:11:02 We talk all the time and sometimes,
    0:11:05 again, my colleague in Virginia will refer a client to me
    0:11:09 or vice versa if she just doesn’t wanna come up to Maryland.
    0:11:10 It’s a very collaborative.
    0:11:11 – Customers aren’t in the position
    0:11:13 of getting multiple competitive bids and say,
    0:11:16 “Well, Cheryl said you do it for this price.”
    0:11:17 – Yeah, yeah.
    0:11:20 I think I’ve come across that maybe once in 10 years.
    0:11:23 And in that case, again, we realize
    0:11:25 that they’re doing competitive bidding
    0:11:27 and we kind of collaborate.
    0:11:28 It’s not a competitive thing.
    0:11:29 It’s not like we say,
    0:11:31 “Well, I’ll do it for the less to get the job.”
    0:11:33 ‘Cause that never really works out anyway.
    0:11:35 – So taking a look at the local competition,
    0:11:38 maybe you not too much was going on
    0:11:42 and even still today, not this crazy oversaturated,
    0:11:45 but then opening up the local marketing playbook
    0:11:48 in terms of your local neighborhood Facebook groups,
    0:11:51 the next-door pages, the local list serves,
    0:11:55 and almost playing this education game of here’s what I do
    0:11:57 to the extent that self-promotion is allowed.
    0:12:00 One of the creative ones we heard recently was,
    0:12:01 “I just got my truck wrapped
    0:12:04 “from this great truck wrap company.”
    0:12:06 But of course, the picture of the truck
    0:12:09 is blazing with this businesses logo.
    0:12:11 You’re ostensibly plugging the car wrap company,
    0:12:13 but subtly plugging yourself as well.
    0:12:16 And then if you can have happy customers post that
    0:12:18 on your behalf, that’s something that we see really commonly
    0:12:19 in our neighborhood, Facebook group.
    0:12:22 Hey, if anybody needs a pain in your recommendation,
    0:12:24 we just had so-and-so out and they were fantastic.
    0:12:26 If anybody needs a handy person,
    0:12:27 you gotta give these guys a call.
    0:12:29 So we hear that all the time.
    0:12:29 Yeah, absolutely.
    0:12:34 Anything else on the local or even online marketing front,
    0:12:36 to what extent does SEO come into play,
    0:12:39 or do you have to do any paid acquisition?
    0:12:41 Maybe some percentage of the customer base
    0:12:42 is actively seeking this out,
    0:12:45 but it sounds like it’s almost more like,
    0:12:46 “You know somebody who had this done,”
    0:12:50 and then they tell, “Is that a typical customer flow?”
    0:12:51 I think that’s a lot of it.
    0:12:52 Marketing and how to get clients
    0:12:54 is always a big topic of conversation
    0:12:55 in photo manager meetings
    0:12:57 and just among our groups and so on.
    0:13:00 And I do think that word of mouth is a lot of it.
    0:13:02 There’s such a trust factor here, right?
    0:13:04 Because whoever you’re gonna give your photos to,
    0:13:07 you have to trust that they’re gonna take care of them
    0:13:09 and trust that they’re gonna be confidential and so on.
    0:13:11 So I think there’s such amount of trust
    0:13:13 that it really is so valuable getting that referral
    0:13:16 from either someone that they trust
    0:13:19 or a previous client who’s actually worked with me.
    0:13:22 As far as online marketing in terms of social media,
    0:13:25 honestly, I don’t do a lot of it.
    0:13:26 And quite honestly, probably partially
    0:13:30 just because I am not a great person at constantly posting,
    0:13:31 whether it’s Facebook or Instagram,
    0:13:33 and I say this all the time too,
    0:13:36 I have been intending to put together a marketing plan
    0:13:39 for 10 years and I just haven’t had time
    0:13:42 because I’ve been too busy with paying clients.
    0:13:43 – Busy doing the work, yeah.
    0:13:44 – Right, right.
    0:13:46 I mean, it’s still important to have it.
    0:13:48 I just haven’t gotten around to it.
    0:13:50 However, I certainly do know
    0:13:52 that there are plenty of photo managers
    0:13:53 who are much better at that,
    0:13:55 who get a fair number of clients.
    0:13:58 Again, you can get remote clients with the digital organizing
    0:14:00 or people sending you their photos
    0:14:01 ’cause they don’t know of anybody in their local area
    0:14:03 and they’re thrilled to find you.
    0:14:04 They’ll send you the boxes of photos.
    0:14:06 I have a colleague in Colorado
    0:14:08 who a client sent her a bunch of stuff
    0:14:11 from I think the Midwest, that kind of thing.
    0:14:14 One of the things I had done early on
    0:14:17 was you have like those school auctions, right?
    0:14:20 Parents are donating things or either items
    0:14:22 or a week in each house or something.
    0:14:26 And I would donate two or three hours of my time.
    0:14:27 But the nice thing is you get the chance
    0:14:29 to do a nice display of what you do.
    0:14:31 And again, it catches people’s attention
    0:14:32 ’cause it’s photo organizing.
    0:14:36 And the nice thing is that two or three hours of my time
    0:14:39 was only gonna scratch the surface of a project.
    0:14:43 So I’m giving away two or three hours of my time,
    0:14:48 but I know that they’re gonna most likely end up paying me
    0:14:49 for many more hours
    0:14:51 because the project itself is just gonna require
    0:14:52 that much more.
    0:14:54 – More with Sheryl in just a moment,
    0:14:57 including how much she charges for this work,
    0:14:58 potential startup costs
    0:15:01 and how AI may impact the business right after this.
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    0:15:10 But did you know Shopify powers in-person selling too?
    0:15:12 It’s true, Shopify is the sound of selling everywhere,
    0:15:16 online, in-store, on social media and beyond.
    0:15:20 Shopify POS is your command center for your retail store.
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    0:17:29 – Yeah, what’s typical?
    0:17:31 How do you figure out how much to charge for this stuff?
    0:17:32 – I mean, I will say that is hard.
    0:17:33 I tell my clients off the bat
    0:17:35 that it’s really impossible
    0:17:37 to know exactly how much it’s gonna cost.
    0:17:39 And I know there are other photo managers
    0:17:41 who are better at kind of giving an estimate
    0:17:43 or they feel that they need to give an estimate.
    0:17:48 I have not, because every project is so different
    0:17:50 and you really don’t know what you’re gonna get
    0:17:52 until you kind of dig into it
    0:17:54 and get into kind of those boxes of print photos
    0:17:57 or the hard drive of photos or whatever it is
    0:17:59 that I will usually kind of say,
    0:18:02 we’ll check in every six hours or eight hours
    0:18:05 or a number that we agree that’s kind of I agree on
    0:18:06 to give them a sense of where we are.
    0:18:10 But I would say an average project of, again,
    0:18:15 let’s say four boxes of photos from the attic,
    0:18:18 I would probably say just to get those sorted and organized
    0:18:21 is probably 15 hours.
    0:18:23 That’s after having done it for a long time.
    0:18:24 So 15 to 20 hours.
    0:18:26 And then if you’re gonna scan on top of that,
    0:18:28 of course, that’s obviously more time.
    0:18:31 But a lot of it depends on if they wanna scan everything
    0:18:34 or if they just wanna scan kind of a select percentage
    0:18:35 and so on.
    0:18:36 So it just depends every time.
    0:18:39 – Yeah, and then what’s the hourly rate
    0:18:40 and has that evolved over time
    0:18:42 or is it are you just kind of set on it?
    0:18:46 – The average hourly rate for what we do across the US
    0:18:47 and of course it depends on your market,
    0:18:50 but the average hourly rate is $100 an hour.
    0:18:52 I can confidently say that there’s plenty of people
    0:18:53 that are charging more than that.
    0:18:57 I would say the minimum is $50 an hour.
    0:18:59 That’s kind of just for someone starting out.
    0:19:04 So most projects are probably minimum 20 hours to do.
    0:19:07 So that’s a nice little chunk of change.
    0:19:08 – Yeah, absolutely.
    0:19:10 It’s like you may not take very many clients
    0:19:12 to hit your income goals,
    0:19:14 but it is you are working for it.
    0:19:17 You’re doing the manual hands-on organizing
    0:19:18 and everything else,
    0:19:19 but pretty strong hourly rate for sure.
    0:19:20 – Yeah, yeah.
    0:19:23 And it’s nice that the hours can be very flexible, right?
    0:19:26 First of all, very few clients have hard and fast deadlines.
    0:19:28 They’re just so happy to hand it over to you
    0:19:32 that they don’t necessarily need it done by a certain time,
    0:19:33 which can be good and bad, right?
    0:19:35 It’s good that there’s no pressure on us.
    0:19:37 Sometimes the people with absolutely no deadline,
    0:19:39 it’s easier to put them off
    0:19:40 or kind of think there’s no rush with that.
    0:19:41 – Yeah.
    0:19:42 – But the nice thing is it’s flexible.
    0:19:44 If you’ve got kids or family obligations
    0:19:47 or family events that you want to participate in
    0:19:49 and can’t work one day or one week,
    0:19:52 it’s not necessarily a problem with most projects.
    0:19:53 – So that makes it a good side hustle.
    0:19:55 Like I can do it after hours.
    0:19:57 I can do it after kids go to bed.
    0:19:59 I can just squeeze it into the gaps in my day,
    0:20:02 provided I have like some workspace to spread out
    0:20:04 and do the physical sorting and scanning.
    0:20:09 – Yeah, if you’re doing the physical just sorting of prints,
    0:20:11 probably all you would really need
    0:20:12 is some space to spread out.
    0:20:14 And honestly, I have an office here that I use
    0:20:15 that I have computers and so on,
    0:20:17 but it doesn’t have a lot of space for me
    0:20:19 to spread spread out on a big table.
    0:20:21 I use my dining room table.
    0:20:23 If I haven’t finished a project, I’ll kind of put it aside.
    0:20:25 Obviously, when we’re using the dining room table,
    0:20:27 but then I go back to the dining table.
    0:20:31 So the nice thing is the investment of equipment
    0:20:33 for that part of the project is minimal.
    0:20:34 You really don’t need much,
    0:20:37 but some rubber bands and photo safe pencils
    0:20:38 and sticky notes really.
    0:20:43 – And the scanner is probably the biggest ticket investment
    0:20:45 is something that can get through it quickly.
    0:20:45 – Right, right.
    0:20:49 So as far as a scanner, a lot of photo organizers,
    0:20:50 especially when they’re starting out,
    0:20:53 will use what we call a speed scanner or a feed scanner,
    0:20:56 kind of where you feed the photos through
    0:20:57 and it goes quickly.
    0:20:59 And a good one, a professional one
    0:21:01 is probably around $500.
    0:21:02 So it’s a bit of an investment,
    0:21:06 but again, think about the fact that we usually charge,
    0:21:11 it ends up working out to be about a dollar an image to scan.
    0:21:15 Most people are gonna have at least 500 pictures to scan
    0:21:15 in most projects.
    0:21:18 So that’s usually paid for itself in one project.
    0:21:20 – And one thing that’s cool is like once their images
    0:21:24 are digitized, especially if it’s this old grainy photo,
    0:21:27 you can run it through some AI image upscaler
    0:21:30 and like you can make this like almost digitally remastered
    0:21:34 type of thing, that kind of begs the next question of,
    0:21:36 well, what’s the role of AI,
    0:21:38 especially on the digital side to say like,
    0:21:43 look, you took 13 shots of your kid blowing out the candles
    0:21:45 at his birthday party, which one is the keeper here?
    0:21:47 Like we don’t need 13 of them.
    0:21:49 And the AI tool will help you pick,
    0:21:52 and I don’t know what algorithm it’s running through.
    0:21:54 Do you use any of that stuff to help speed up
    0:21:56 the digital coaling side?
    0:21:58 – Sometimes, there are some software options out there
    0:22:01 that will kind of start that process for you, right?
    0:22:04 They don’t really know who the key players are
    0:22:05 necessarily in the family.
    0:22:07 Like that’s one of the things I learn as I’m going through
    0:22:09 these thousands of photos from a family
    0:22:11 is you learn who the important people are, right?
    0:22:13 Just who constantly shows up in photos.
    0:22:16 The software sometimes is helpful in, yes,
    0:22:20 figuring out of the 13 almost identical pictures
    0:22:22 of the group, which one is the best.
    0:22:24 – Yeah, it can detect like who has their eyes open.
    0:22:25 – Exactly.
    0:22:27 – It can do that kind of stuff, but you’re right.
    0:22:28 It doesn’t know well, which kid is your kid.
    0:22:30 – You know, maybe over time it would learn that.
    0:22:31 I don’t know.
    0:22:33 – I mean, facial recognition software has been around
    0:22:36 for ages and you kind of have to teach it
    0:22:38 as a person progresses in age.
    0:22:40 That yes, this was Johnny as a baby
    0:22:42 and that’s him as five and that’s him as 10 and so on.
    0:22:43 So it does get better.
    0:22:46 I think it’s gonna be quite a while before they replace us.
    0:22:47 And again, with the print photos,
    0:22:49 there’s no AI until they’re digitized,
    0:22:52 but there’s still a lot of work to be done there.
    0:22:56 And again, it’s such a personal process in many cases
    0:22:59 that you really do have to kind of get to know the family
    0:23:01 and the people in the photos.
    0:23:03 – Okay, I’m going back to your, you know,
    0:23:08 maybe it’s 20 hours times a 100 bucks an hour average rate.
    0:23:12 I’m already at $2,000 and that’s just for the photos.
    0:23:14 If you wanna scan stuff that it’s extra,
    0:23:16 it could be thousands and thousands of dollars
    0:23:17 into this project.
    0:23:21 And it’s gotta be an affluent customer base.
    0:23:23 It’s gotta be like, who’s paying for this stuff?
    0:23:24 – So it’s interesting.
    0:23:26 There’s no question that a lot of my clients
    0:23:29 are clients with a decent amount of disposable income,
    0:23:30 no question.
    0:23:31 But then there’s also clients
    0:23:33 where this is just a really important thing to them.
    0:23:36 This is more important than going to Europe every year
    0:23:40 or this is more important than getting the newest car.
    0:23:44 This is kind of where they want to invest their money
    0:23:45 because it’s their family memories.
    0:23:48 I definitely would say that I have clients
    0:23:52 in varying levels of income and disposable income.
    0:23:54 There’s no question that there are clients
    0:23:55 who when I do quote my price, they say,
    0:23:56 “Oh, I just can’t afford that.”
    0:23:58 And I mean, it’s unfortunate.
    0:24:00 And sometimes I will try and figure out a way to help them
    0:24:02 or maybe for instance, maybe I’ll say,
    0:24:05 okay, look, I will sort and organize the print photos
    0:24:07 for you because you really can’t do anything
    0:24:08 until that’s done.
    0:24:11 And then you can buy the scanner
    0:24:13 and do the scanning yourself or not.
    0:24:15 We can meet again next year
    0:24:16 and we can do the second phase of the project.
    0:24:20 I’ve definitely had clients who we pause at different times
    0:24:23 and kind of pick it up again when they’re ready to.
    0:24:28 – Okay, right, as timing and budget allows and everything.
    0:24:29 And this is like, this is hard.
    0:24:32 It’s like, you keep making more photos every month
    0:24:33 that goes by and you’re like, “Hey, I took more pictures.”
    0:24:36 And now eventually I gotta build a system around this.
    0:24:38 Otherwise I’m gonna have the same problem again.
    0:24:42 – Yeah, I think it does also make our clients,
    0:24:43 I mean, first of all, they realize
    0:24:46 they’ve gotten themselves into this situation.
    0:24:49 Just again, especially when it comes to the digital photos
    0:24:51 because we all, I mean, I’m guilty of it too.
    0:24:53 Absolutely, I can’t help myself
    0:24:55 but hit the shutter three or four times
    0:24:58 with the same scene just in case.
    0:24:59 – Yes, the film is free, let’s keep going.
    0:25:00 – Exactly, exactly.
    0:25:02 So I am guilty of the same thing,
    0:25:05 but then I end up thinking, gosh, this is crazy.
    0:25:06 Why did I do that?
    0:25:08 And we get ourselves into this situation
    0:25:12 and it actually has started to change my photo habits
    0:25:14 ’cause I realize, okay, look,
    0:25:15 I don’t need 12 versions of that photo
    0:25:18 because even the one with that person’s eyes closed,
    0:25:20 I still have the memory of that great moment
    0:25:21 and that great party.
    0:25:22 So it’s interesting.
    0:25:26 People start to realize their photo taking habits change.
    0:25:28 – This is what I try and do on the return flight
    0:25:29 from any trip.
    0:25:31 It’s something I could do in airplane mode.
    0:25:33 It’s like, okay, well, I took those 13 shots.
    0:25:36 Let me favor it, the best one and give her to the rest.
    0:25:39 Something to kill time on the airplane.
    0:25:43 On those sales calls, so you’re kind of ballparking.
    0:25:45 I really don’t know how long this is gonna take
    0:25:47 but here’s my hourly rate.
    0:25:49 You could start off with this.
    0:25:52 This is the order of operations I would suggest going in.
    0:25:54 We can check in and then you get the balk
    0:25:56 of like, whoa, I’m starting to add this up
    0:25:58 and it’s gonna be thousands of dollars.
    0:26:00 What kind of common objections or handling
    0:26:01 do you have to do at that point?
    0:26:03 – I think the smartest thing to do
    0:26:05 and the best thing to do is to prepare them upfront
    0:26:07 and not to try and sugarcoat it and not to try and say,
    0:26:10 oh yeah, I think I can probably do this in 10 hours
    0:26:14 or something because very often it does end up taking
    0:26:18 longer than anyone hoped that it would.
    0:26:19 That’s just the way it is.
    0:26:22 I mean, I certainly always try and reinforce the fact
    0:26:25 that it’s still gonna take me a lot less time
    0:26:25 than it would take them.
    0:26:27 Granted, they’re not paying anybody
    0:26:30 if they do it themselves, but it will take
    0:26:33 at least twice as long because of that whole emotional factor.
    0:26:34 – Did they give you an answer key?
    0:26:38 Here’s the family in arrows pointing to who’s who.
    0:26:41 So you go back and you see this picture from 50 years ago
    0:26:44 and like, well, I don’t know if this is an important one.
    0:26:47 It seems very personal in a lot of ways
    0:26:48 where it would be hard to delegate.
    0:26:49 – It is very personal.
    0:26:50 And to answer your first question,
    0:26:53 in every intake meeting that I have with a new client,
    0:26:56 we go through a list of not only photo gathering,
    0:26:57 but information gathering,
    0:26:59 all the important birth dates of everybody,
    0:27:01 wedding dates, depending on how far,
    0:27:03 sometimes we’re going backwards in generations, right?
    0:27:05 Grandparents, great-grandparents and so on.
    0:27:07 And sometimes we’re really just dealing with
    0:27:11 the last 20 or 30 years of my client’s children’s lives
    0:27:13 and kind of just going forward.
    0:27:15 And I always say you get the birth dates and so on
    0:27:18 because it’s especially if there’s children in the photo,
    0:27:19 you can tell a one-year-old from a three-year-old
    0:27:21 from a five-year-old and so on.
    0:27:23 And so that’s an easy way to figure out
    0:27:26 when the picture was taken pretty close.
    0:27:28 So we gather all kinds of information, again,
    0:27:30 about birth dates, wedding dates, death dates.
    0:27:33 If there’s somebody in the picture that I know died in 1981,
    0:27:37 then I know it’s obviously at least prior to 1981.
    0:27:40 You really get to recognize faces.
    0:27:42 I’ve gotten very familiar with recognizing
    0:27:44 people’s faces at different ages,
    0:27:48 even adults from their childhood to adulthood.
    0:27:50 You get to know who the important players are.
    0:27:53 And yes, hopefully the client can point out,
    0:27:55 this is my parents, this is my husband’s parents.
    0:27:58 – And it’s primarily, give me this box or give me these boxes
    0:28:00 and I’m gonna take it back to my workshop.
    0:28:02 You don’t need to be involved.
    0:28:04 Or do you have people wanting to be going through
    0:28:07 photo by photo and explaining the backstory of this?
    0:28:09 And like, is that important?
    0:28:10 I can imagine keeper toss.
    0:28:15 – Yeah, I have had one, I think maybe literally one client
    0:28:18 in 10 years who kind of insisted.
    0:28:20 And quite honestly, this was early on
    0:28:22 and I probably should have insisted to her
    0:28:23 that that’s not the most efficient way to do it.
    0:28:26 But I was early on in the career and I thought,
    0:28:28 okay, we’ll sit and we’ll do this together.
    0:28:31 It was exhausting for her, exhausting for me.
    0:28:34 It went so slowly because again,
    0:28:37 she would tell me a story about every picture,
    0:28:39 which was lovely and was probably therapeutic for her.
    0:28:43 But I mean, she was paying for a lot of extra time.
    0:28:45 And I do tell people that ’cause some people just assume
    0:28:47 that’s how we’re gonna do it because they think,
    0:28:49 well, Cheryl, how could you possibly do it?
    0:28:51 So we’re gonna have to do it together.
    0:28:53 And I explained to them again,
    0:28:55 how long it’s gonna take if we do it together
    0:28:57 and how emotional and just stressful
    0:28:59 it’s gonna be for them to do it
    0:29:01 because they don’t wanna throw away anything.
    0:29:02 But for the most part, they have to make,
    0:29:04 it’s like making a decision every time
    0:29:07 they’re looking at a photo and that’s exhausting.
    0:29:09 So we kind of build this trust
    0:29:11 throughout the initial part of this project.
    0:29:12 They learned to trust me
    0:29:15 and I try and communicate with them as much as possible.
    0:29:18 And then I think a lot of it comes down to,
    0:29:19 here’s your choices.
    0:29:22 The choices, you can do this on your own.
    0:29:23 I’m talking to the client.
    0:29:24 Client can do this on their own
    0:29:26 and go through the pictures and sort them
    0:29:28 and kind of curate them themselves,
    0:29:31 which in my mind, I’m pretty sure is not gonna happen
    0:29:34 because never gets to the top of the to-do list.
    0:29:35 Or we can go through it together,
    0:29:37 which is just gonna take twice as long.
    0:29:40 I really am happy to do that for your comfort level,
    0:29:44 but it’s gonna take twice as long or you can trust me.
    0:29:47 And I will go through and I will pick out
    0:29:50 the best representation of every year or event
    0:29:53 or vacation or whatever it is.
    0:29:55 I’m not gonna throw away anything.
    0:29:57 I’m never gonna throw anything away.
    0:29:58 I’m just gonna put the best pictures
    0:30:02 that I think are the best representation in a separate pile
    0:30:04 and you can review them.
    0:30:05 You can review the ones I didn’t choose
    0:30:07 and if there’s anything you wanna put,
    0:30:09 again, they’re never gonna do that
    0:30:11 because it’s just an overwhelming task.
    0:30:15 But they’re just so happy to have a curated collection.
    0:30:19 I tell them, I will make sure to select something
    0:30:22 from every event, even if they’re kind of blurry,
    0:30:25 so that you can remember that you went there.
    0:30:28 That was that dinner at that restaurant or whatever it is.
    0:30:32 Be comforted in the fact that I won’t skip over any events.
    0:30:33 – More with Cheryl in just a moment,
    0:30:35 including how she’s growing the business
    0:30:38 beyond hours for dollars right after this.
    0:30:41 That kind of digitizing service or scanning service,
    0:30:46 that would be, in my mind, maybe top of the funnel.
    0:30:47 That’s what I think I need.
    0:30:49 I wanna digitize this stuff
    0:30:51 and then maybe I’m gonna go through.
    0:30:52 Is that where customers come in
    0:30:54 and be like, that’s part of the solution,
    0:30:57 but then what we really gotta do is step two, three and four.
    0:31:01 – Well, and truthfully, scanning really should be step two
    0:31:04 because if you scan, if we take that big–
    0:31:05 – You don’t need to scan everything yet.
    0:31:07 – No, you don’t need to scan everything
    0:31:09 and you don’t really even know what you have
    0:31:10 until you organize it.
    0:31:14 Scanning an unorganized mess,
    0:31:16 you just end with a digital mess.
    0:31:21 And it is really harder to sort those scanned photos
    0:31:23 after they’ve been scanned.
    0:31:24 So for instance, if you think about the fact
    0:31:27 that I’ve got a box of print photos
    0:31:29 and I’ve got my dining room table fully clean
    0:31:30 and I can just spread everything out
    0:31:33 on the dining room table and kind of make different piles
    0:31:36 for different years and so on or different people,
    0:31:38 I can kind of just see the whole thing at once
    0:31:39 as I’m working on it.
    0:31:41 But once it’s all scanned,
    0:31:44 you’re confined to a computer screen
    0:31:47 to kind of figure out where things go.
    0:31:48 We tend to kind of default to,
    0:31:50 you really should organize first
    0:31:52 and then decide what you wanna scan
    0:31:53 ’cause you’ll probably end up scanning less.
    0:31:56 You’ll actually end up saving money on the scanning step.
    0:31:58 – Okay, that makes sense.
    0:32:01 Do you see a future where you’re the CEO
    0:32:05 and then you have subcontracted photo managers?
    0:32:06 It sounds like at the moment,
    0:32:08 it’s we’re wearing all the hats right now,
    0:32:10 like a solo service provider.
    0:32:12 – I definitely am trying to grow my business.
    0:32:14 There’s no question.
    0:32:16 And the way that I feel comfortable doing it
    0:32:18 is with employees.
    0:32:21 So I actually do have two people that work for me part-time
    0:32:24 that just do some of the tasks that I can hand off to them.
    0:32:26 And one of them I’m training,
    0:32:28 obviously the intent is to train them to do more.
    0:32:32 That’s at the moment how I am growing my business.
    0:32:34 I can charge my hourly rate for what they’re doing
    0:32:36 ’cause they’re basically doing what I would do.
    0:32:37 – Where the different levers you can pull, right?
    0:32:39 We can serve more clients, we can raise rates,
    0:32:42 we could expand to new geographies.
    0:32:44 – Right, and passive income is another one.
    0:32:45 You mentioned subcontracting
    0:32:48 and actually that’s what a lot of photo organizers do,
    0:32:50 work with other organizers.
    0:32:51 So for instance,
    0:32:54 and actually the kind of sorting scanning steps
    0:32:54 is a great example.
    0:32:57 So there are some photo organizers
    0:32:58 that don’t wanna deal with scanning.
    0:33:00 They just either don’t wanna invest in the equipment
    0:33:01 or they may think it’s boring.
    0:33:03 So they’ll do the sorting part
    0:33:04 and then they’ll subcontract out
    0:33:06 to another organizer to do the scanning part.
    0:33:08 And it works great.
    0:33:09 They can either do it in a sense
    0:33:13 that I’m gonna pass this client onto you to my colleague
    0:33:15 and my colleague is gonna give me a percentage
    0:33:18 of what they charge the client.
    0:33:20 Or I’m just going to,
    0:33:22 everything’s still gonna come through me.
    0:33:23 I’m gonna build a client,
    0:33:24 but we’re gonna agree on what you’re gonna charge me
    0:33:26 for the scanning and I’m probably gonna mark it up
    0:33:28 to the client and so on.
    0:33:30 – Yeah, are you setting everybody up
    0:33:31 with their own cloud account?
    0:33:33 Like that would be another potential,
    0:33:34 really common in web development.
    0:33:36 Like, hey, we’ll build your website,
    0:33:37 but then we’ll also host it
    0:33:40 and we’ll charge this ongoing maintenance fee, hosting fee.
    0:33:41 It’s like something like that
    0:33:44 for like the cloud backup storage for the stuff.
    0:33:45 – I definitely don’t host anything.
    0:33:47 It’s just not a business I really wanna get into.
    0:33:48 But there are definitely services.
    0:33:50 So in general,
    0:33:53 the goal usually is for any client is,
    0:33:54 okay, whatever we’re doing for you,
    0:33:57 whether it’s just digital photo organizing
    0:34:00 or sorting and scanning and digitizing things,
    0:34:03 whatever it is, is anything that is ultimately digital,
    0:34:05 we want to make sure is backed up
    0:34:08 because you don’t wanna lose that hard drive
    0:34:10 or that flash drive or wherever the scans are.
    0:34:12 So we certainly encourage people to back up
    0:34:16 in kind of multiple places and one of them being online.
    0:34:17 One of them actually being offline
    0:34:20 and a lot of that comes down to the client’s comfort level
    0:34:22 or where they already are.
    0:34:24 So for instance, if there’s a client
    0:34:26 that already is all Apple, right?
    0:34:29 And they use iCloud and Apple Photos,
    0:34:31 we might put the things we scanned,
    0:34:33 we might add to their Apple Photos.
    0:34:34 So now that everything’s in one place
    0:34:37 or same thing with Google Photos, if they use that,
    0:34:38 there’s other options.
    0:34:40 There’s one called forever.com,
    0:34:41 which is a great website.
    0:34:44 It is strictly for photos,
    0:34:47 is strictly for a family photo archives.
    0:34:51 And it’s a great platform, very easy to use platform.
    0:34:54 This is again, kind of a passive income option
    0:34:58 where it does need to be set up by a photo manager.
    0:35:00 Basically, it’s an affiliate based program.
    0:35:04 So if I have a client who wants to use forever,
    0:35:06 they’re gonna pay the fee forever and so on,
    0:35:08 but they’re going through me.
    0:35:12 And anything that they purchase through forever
    0:35:14 or if they have to add additional space,
    0:35:17 anything they pay forever, I then get a percentage.
    0:35:19 – Okay, like a reseller fee or…
    0:35:20 – Right, exactly, exactly.
    0:35:22 Is that recurring every year when it renews or something?
    0:35:25 – No, forever itself is actually a one-time fee,
    0:35:28 which is why it’s very appealing to a lot of people.
    0:35:30 It’s a higher fee because it’s one time.
    0:35:32 And it’s based on how much space you’re taking up.
    0:35:34 But there’s a lot of families who really just,
    0:35:36 they just want to know that it’s taken care of.
    0:35:39 It’s guaranteed for, I can’t remember exactly,
    0:35:41 but it’s guaranteed forever.
    0:35:43 – For forever, you would think, yeah.
    0:35:45 – And of course, there’s safeguards to put in place
    0:35:46 to make sure that it passes down
    0:35:48 to family members and so on.
    0:35:50 So it’s a really popular platform
    0:35:51 that a lot of photo managers use
    0:35:53 with their clients as a backup.
    0:35:56 – Okay, yeah, that may be more organized.
    0:35:58 I think most of my stuff is like Google Photos right now,
    0:36:01 but forever.com, all right, we’ll plug that.
    0:36:02 What surprised you the most?
    0:36:03 You’ve been doing this for 10 years.
    0:36:05 I know you’ve got crazy client stories.
    0:36:08 What stands out as a surprising moment
    0:36:09 or something like that?
    0:36:12 – You do see behind the curtain of your clients
    0:36:14 and you do see pretty much everything.
    0:36:18 So I’ve seen a few things that were a little surprising,
    0:36:21 but it’s all confidential and the breastfeeding photos,
    0:36:22 babies in the bath and so on,
    0:36:26 but it’s all very appropriate and confidential.
    0:36:28 I tell people, think of me as your photo doctor.
    0:36:30 There’s no judgment and I’ve seen it all
    0:36:34 and I don’t even think about it after I’ve sorted it away.
    0:36:36 I think the biggest joy for me
    0:36:39 is just how appreciative people really are.
    0:36:42 I mean, even when they’re writing me a big fat check,
    0:36:45 they are just so appreciative to have this done
    0:36:48 because they really didn’t think their photos
    0:36:50 would ever get organized or get preserved.
    0:36:52 I’ve had people say,
    0:36:55 I really thought my photos were gonna die with me
    0:36:58 and that my kids would never know what to do with them.
    0:36:59 My kids would not want them
    0:37:03 because who’s gonna want to take all these bins of a mess?
    0:37:05 – Yeah, well, and even if they do take them,
    0:37:07 they’re not gonna know who’s in this picture, right?
    0:37:08 – Right, exactly.
    0:37:10 And that’s one of the things, obviously, again,
    0:37:12 especially if we’re dealing with previous generations,
    0:37:14 is we’re very careful to identify everybody
    0:37:17 and make sure the whole point of preserving our photos
    0:37:20 is not only for us to enjoy them now, but to pass them on
    0:37:24 and to pass on those old photos of great-great-grandfather
    0:37:26 and that farm that was in the family for decades
    0:37:29 and all these memories, I didn’t live myself,
    0:37:32 but I can hopefully maybe live them through the photos.
    0:37:35 – Yeah, it’s like in Coco, where Teo Ector’s friend,
    0:37:38 he’s being forgotten and he’s like fading away.
    0:37:39 He’s like, no, no, no, you gotta put my picture out,
    0:37:41 you gotta remember me.
    0:37:44 So you’ve got a couple part-timers on the team now,
    0:37:46 looking for ways to grow and scale
    0:37:51 and build this into a little bit more time-leveraged operation.
    0:37:52 What’s next for you?
    0:37:52 Where do you wanna take it?
    0:37:55 – I think the next thing, probably in order for me
    0:37:57 to grow further would be to move out of my home office
    0:38:00 and find rental space to work in,
    0:38:02 which the nice thing is it doesn’t have to be flashy,
    0:38:05 it doesn’t have to be retail space necessarily,
    0:38:06 it can just be warehouse space or something,
    0:38:09 just where we can kind of spread out and have more people.
    0:38:11 It’s gonna be really just more people
    0:38:12 that can do more projects.
    0:38:14 Right now, I’ve actually got more projects
    0:38:16 than, again, no deadlines,
    0:38:18 so it just means they hang around longer,
    0:38:20 but I mean, I’ve kind of got more clients than I can.
    0:38:22 – But that’s fascinating that we had more space,
    0:38:24 we could take on more business,
    0:38:25 so we had more people who could like,
    0:38:29 that’s really interesting that even at thousands of dollars
    0:38:31 a project, people are paying it.
    0:38:32 – Yep, I cannot stress enough
    0:38:35 that there is plenty of work to go around.
    0:38:36 I’m doing it full-time.
    0:38:38 If someone wants to do it as a side hustle,
    0:38:39 one or two clients a month,
    0:38:42 I’m quite confident that you would have no problem
    0:38:43 finding that. – Yeah.
    0:38:46 – I would think even if you started talking to people
    0:38:48 just about you’re thinking about doing it,
    0:38:50 hey, I heard about this photo organizing
    0:38:52 and I’m thinking about doing it
    0:38:53 because it sounds like something I would enjoy
    0:38:55 and I would be good at,
    0:38:57 you should test it out and see what people’s reactions are.
    0:38:59 You might find that there’ll be several people
    0:39:01 right off the bat who say, “I’d hire you in a minute.”
    0:39:02 – Yeah.
    0:39:02 – “I’d hire you in a minute.”
    0:39:04 – They’re like, “Okay, press here.”
    0:39:04 – Yeah, right, exactly.
    0:39:06 – Here’s my Venmo, yeah.
    0:39:07 Okay.
    0:39:08 – I think a lot of the reason is
    0:39:11 there is so much anxiety around photos.
    0:39:13 Not only around the photos in the attic,
    0:39:15 because again, once those are gone
    0:39:18 or once those are lost, they’re gone forever.
    0:39:20 There’s so much anxiety about that.
    0:39:21 And then there’s so much anxiety
    0:39:23 on all the photos on our phone
    0:39:25 because everybody knows
    0:39:27 they have way too many photos on their phone.
    0:39:29 And every time we go looking on our phone to say,
    0:39:31 “Oh, I wanna show you this great picture
    0:39:33 “of my daughter from camp.”
    0:39:34 Hold on.
    0:39:35 – Yeah, scroll, scroll, scroll, scroll, scroll.
    0:39:37 – Hold on, hold on, hold on, yeah, yeah, yeah.
    0:39:41 And that just reinforces like I’ve got too many photos.
    0:39:44 I’ve got to find a way to get to those great photos quickly.
    0:39:49 So there’s so much anxiety around photos, I think, really,
    0:39:52 that the idea that you could relieve some of that anxiety
    0:39:56 and some of that stress is huge, is a huge bonus
    0:39:59 and a huge benefit to what you could offer them.
    0:40:01 So I would start talking about it.
    0:40:03 – Yeah, what a unique 21st century point.
    0:40:06 Like I got too many pictures, like what a time to be alive.
    0:40:09 Like the truth is the film really wasn’t free.
    0:40:11 Like here’s the mental cost to it.
    0:40:12 But that’s fascinating.
    0:40:15 So mymemoryfile.com, thephotomanagers.com
    0:40:17 is the industry association.
    0:40:22 If you hit up thephotomanagers.com/sidehustledownload,
    0:40:24 Cheryl’s put together a couple free resources for us.
    0:40:28 One is 20 different types of potential clients
    0:40:31 that hire professional photo organizers.
    0:40:34 We’ve talked about the families preserving different memories,
    0:40:36 but lots of different types of people
    0:40:38 who would be potential prospects,
    0:40:40 potential customers in this space.
    0:40:42 And then the other resource is a set of worksheets
    0:40:46 that will help anybody considering entering photo organizing
    0:40:49 as a side hustle, as a full-time business to identify,
    0:40:52 okay, what’s the menu of services that I’m gonna offer
    0:40:54 and what kind of clients might be a match for those?
    0:40:59 So that’s thephotomanagers.com/sidehustledownload.
    0:41:02 And be sure to check that out over there.
    0:41:04 – And I actually wanted to add to that too.
    0:41:06 I actually told Kathy at the photo managers
    0:41:10 that for anybody who goes and downloads that free download
    0:41:13 and then decides to then join the photo managers,
    0:41:16 the first three people who do join the photo managers,
    0:41:19 I would be happy to give a free 30-minute consultation
    0:41:22 to answer any questions, give any tips,
    0:41:24 tell more about how I got into it
    0:41:26 and what kind of projects I do.
    0:41:28 – Yeah, very generous, appreciate you sharing that.
    0:41:33 Again, thephotomanagers.com/sidehustledownload.
    0:41:35 Cheryl, thanks so much for joining me.
    0:41:36 So let’s wrap this thing up
    0:41:38 with your number one tip for side hustle nation.
    0:41:40 – Find something that you love doing.
    0:41:42 And again, I love working with photos
    0:41:45 and I never thought it would have turned into a business
    0:41:47 and it has, I mean, it’s turned into a wonderful business
    0:41:51 and I really, really love going to work every day
    0:41:52 and your clients will know it too.
    0:41:55 But find people, find community that can support you
    0:41:57 because that’s, especially if it’s a side hustle
    0:42:00 where you’re working independently, it’s critical
    0:42:02 and can make or break the hustle.
    0:42:04 – That’s so lonely to be like, I’m doing this thing
    0:42:07 but I don’t have anybody to bounce ideas off of
    0:42:10 or get feedback or even figure out
    0:42:11 what my next step is gonna be.
    0:42:12 – Yeah, but there is a community here
    0:42:14 so it’s there to lift everybody up.
    0:42:16 – Very good.
    0:42:18 I think one of the biggest surprises for me
    0:42:21 was this market education component
    0:42:25 of like letting people know that such a thing exists
    0:42:28 and then the reaction in a lot of cases
    0:42:31 if there is budget in somebody’s household income
    0:42:34 to allow for it, be like, oh, can you start with mine?
    0:42:36 Here, I know three people that you ought to,
    0:42:39 I go to try and get that word of mouth spin in
    0:42:41 but you can kind of start to play
    0:42:43 the local marketing playbook.
    0:42:46 I love the idea of sponsoring the school auction
    0:42:48 to get in front of 200, 300 parents.
    0:42:51 Even just only costs you a few hours of your time
    0:42:53 and it may even just be a sampler of a larger project
    0:42:55 or a starter of that larger project.
    0:42:58 But that’s actually your listener only bonus for this week.
    0:43:01 It’s my local marketing checklist, 10 proven ideas
    0:43:04 that you can use to increase the lead flow for your business.
    0:43:05 You can download that for free
    0:43:07 at the show notes for this episode
    0:43:11 at sidehustle-nation.com/sharyl with a C
    0:43:14 or just follow the show notes link in the episode description
    0:43:15 and I’ll get you right over there.
    0:43:17 Big thanks to Cheryl for sharing her insight.
    0:43:19 I’ve taken a ton of notes as I always do.
    0:43:21 Big thanks to our sponsors for helping
    0:43:23 make this content free for everyone.
    0:43:25 You can hit up sidehustle-nation.com/deals
    0:43:29 for all the latest offers from our sponsors in one place.
    0:43:30 And thanks for supporting the advertisers
    0:43:32 that support the show.
    0:43:33 That’s it for me.
    0:43:34 Thank you so much for tuning in.
    0:43:36 If you’re finding value in the show,
    0:43:39 the greatest compliment is to share with a friend.
    0:43:41 We talked about the importance of word of mouth.
    0:43:42 So fire off that text message.
    0:43:44 Hey, did you know you can make money doing this?
    0:43:47 Until next time, let’s go out there and make something happen
    0:43:48 and I’ll catch you in the next edition
    0:43:50 of the Side Hustle Show.
    0:43:51 Hustle on.
    0:43:55 As a side hustle show listener, I know you’re driven.
    0:43:56 Otherwise, you wouldn’t be here.
    0:43:59 But I also know you can end up hustling
    0:44:02 and driving yourself into exhaustion, overwhelm
    0:44:04 and even burnout if you don’t stay anchored
    0:44:06 to why you’re doing it.
    0:44:08 That’s why I want to recommend another podcast
    0:44:10 that will massively support your side hustle.
    0:44:13 It’s called What Drives You with host Kevin Miller.
    0:44:15 Kevin’s a former pro athlete.
    0:44:17 He’s a lifelong entrepreneur
    0:44:18 who started 19 different businesses.
    0:44:21 He’s a father of nine kids, an author
    0:44:23 and a mountain adventurer as well.
    0:44:26 He knows both the glory and the dark side of drive
    0:44:28 and has devoted his life to helping people
    0:44:30 who want to drive further, faster,
    0:44:33 but also enjoy the ride every single day.
    0:44:35 He brings on today’s most influential people
    0:44:37 in personal and business development
    0:44:39 to see what drives them and get their guidance
    0:44:42 on the key ingredients that power our own drive.
    0:44:44 If you want to fully harness your drive
    0:44:46 and find peace and fulfillment in the process,
    0:44:49 go find What Drives You with Kevin Miller,
    0:44:50 wherever you listen to podcasts.

    Do you have an overwhelming number of photos scattered across your phone or even tucked away in dusty albums in the attic?

    Would you hire someone to organize it for you?

    I never imagined photo organizing as a side hustle could pay $100/hr, nor did I anticipate its high demand.

    But Cheryl DiFrank from mymemoryfile.com says she’s building a six-figure business in the process.

    Tune in to Episode 619 of the Side Hustle Show to learn:

    • how photo organizing works
    • who it might be a good fit for
    • how to launch this side hustle going off the ground

    Full Show Notes: $85/hr Organizing Other People’s Pictures

    New to the Show? Get your personalized money-making playlist here!

    Sponsors:

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  • 618: 7 Questions to Ask Before You Quit Your Job

    AI transcript
    0:00:03 – Seven questions to ask before you quit your job.
    0:00:05 What’s up, what’s up, Nick Loper here.
    0:00:07 Welcome to The Science Hustle Show,
    0:00:09 part of the entrepreneur podcast network
    0:00:12 because building your own income streams
    0:00:15 is the best way to recession-proof your life.
    0:00:17 So how do you know when it’s time to hand in your two weeks
    0:00:20 notice and become your own boss?
    0:00:22 That’s what this episode is about.
    0:00:24 Now, quitting your job to pursue your business full-time
    0:00:27 is a dream for a lot of science hustlers,
    0:00:29 but there are a few things
    0:00:30 that I think you should have in place
    0:00:32 before you make the leap.
    0:00:33 When I was working my corporate gig,
    0:00:35 my one and only corporate job out of college,
    0:00:39 I probably stuck around longer than I needed to
    0:00:42 because maybe I’m just more risk-averse.
    0:00:43 I had my little shoe business
    0:00:45 plug it away nights and weekends on this thing.
    0:00:48 And the cool part was because it was an online business,
    0:00:50 it earned money even when I was at work.
    0:00:52 So I have that in the back of my mind
    0:00:54 that this could be a full-time thing.
    0:00:56 It’s just waiting for the right time to make the leap.
    0:01:00 And the truth is timing is never gonna be perfect
    0:01:02 and that the leap is gonna be scary
    0:01:04 even with a proven side hustle,
    0:01:06 even once you’ve answered the questions from this episode.
    0:01:09 Yes, you can prepare, you can make that cliff a little shorter.
    0:01:11 You probably heard that line from Reed Hoffman,
    0:01:13 an entrepreneur, someone who will jump off the cliff
    0:01:16 and figure out how to assemble the airplane on the way down.
    0:01:18 And in a way, that’s what this show is all about.
    0:01:20 It’s about shortening your cliff.
    0:01:23 It’s about building the airplane before you leap.
    0:01:26 But for me, quitting my job wasn’t this spur of the moment
    0:01:29 decision, it wasn’t the triumph and flip everyone off in the office
    0:01:33 and make a dramatic exit and slam the door on the way out.
    0:01:36 It was the result of three years of nights and weekends
    0:01:38 to build it up to where that was even an option.
    0:01:39 That was even on the table.
    0:01:42 But I’ve been thinking about it for at least a year
    0:01:46 and it felt amazing when I finally got up the nerve to tell my boss
    0:01:48 we were out to dinner in Eureka, California.
    0:01:52 And the next day for the full six hour drive back to the Bay Area,
    0:01:56 I got to be excited that, yes, this is real, this is happening.
    0:01:57 I’m doing it.
    0:01:59 And of course, that was really just
    0:02:01 the beginning of the entrepreneurial roller coaster,
    0:02:04 but it still felt like an important milestone.
    0:02:06 So without further ado, seven questions
    0:02:08 to ask before you quit your job.
    0:02:12 Number one is, are you quitting to something or from something?
    0:02:15 Now, even if your job is miserable
    0:02:19 and the very thought of another day in your cubicle
    0:02:20 makes you want to gouge out your eyes,
    0:02:25 quitting purely to escape isn’t going to solve all your problems.
    0:02:28 Now, thankfully, this is where your side hustle comes in.
    0:02:31 Quitting to work on your business is a lot different than quitting
    0:02:34 just to get away from a dissatisfying work situation without a plan.
    0:02:36 And it’s the same thing for retirement.
    0:02:39 I think it’s something that keeps a lot of people working.
    0:02:42 A lot of would be early retirees still punching the clock.
    0:02:45 The work has become a part of their identity.
    0:02:47 They’re not sure what they would do without it,
    0:02:50 even if they don’t mathematically, statistically need the income anymore.
    0:02:53 And then you hear about the stories of people dying in the weeks
    0:02:56 immediately following their retirement.
    0:02:59 Their work had become such a deep part of them,
    0:03:02 they literally couldn’t exist without it.
    0:03:03 But for the case of most side hustlers,
    0:03:06 you’re probably quitting to pursue your own business
    0:03:10 and hopefully a lifestyle that allows more time freedom and more earning power.
    0:03:13 In my case, I wasn’t quitting a job that I hated.
    0:03:17 I was quitting instead to pursue a business that I enjoyed more
    0:03:22 and one importantly that I thought had a lot more upside potential.
    0:03:23 And maybe it’s two birds with one stone.
    0:03:26 Maybe it’s getting out of that toxic work environment
    0:03:28 and moving toward something better.
    0:03:32 But if you can’t imagine what you’re going to be spending your time doing
    0:03:34 after quitting other than just not working anymore,
    0:03:37 you’re probably not ready to quit yet.
    0:03:43 That’s question one, are you quitting to something or from something or both?
    0:03:47 Question number two, how much is your side hustle earning?
    0:03:51 Before you quit, you got to make sure your side hustle is validated with real dollars.
    0:03:54 This isn’t going to come as a surprise to anyone,
    0:03:58 but the only real validation is in terms of actual sales.
    0:04:00 People giving you money for your thing.
    0:04:02 Now, some side hustlers are a lot more aggressive than I am,
    0:04:06 but I wanted to see several months or even a year of my side business
    0:04:09 earning enough to cover my expenses before I quit.
    0:04:11 And that’s an important point.
    0:04:14 You don’t need to fully replace your day job salary
    0:04:16 provided you’re living below your means.
    0:04:19 But I do think it’s nice to have a track record, a profit
    0:04:22 that’s at least covering your fixed expenses.
    0:04:25 The reason for that is then you’re in the same position that I was
    0:04:29 where my entire day job salary was gravy.
    0:04:31 And I remember the first month where that really hit me
    0:04:36 and it was this empowering moment of, I don’t need this job anymore.
    0:04:38 I’m not desperate for this paycheck.
    0:04:42 And it’s another point in favor of keeping your expenses low
    0:04:46 because that means it’s a lower hurdle to clear talking about lowering that cliff.
    0:04:49 Now, some people like Shannon Weinstein built her side hustle
    0:04:53 up to a multi-six figure level before giving her notice at work.
    0:04:54 I was especially kind.
    0:04:58 I gave about four weeks notice because I couldn’t wait to tell them I was leaving.
    0:04:59 I broke the news to my team.
    0:05:01 They said, what are you going to do?
    0:05:02 That’s the first question they always ask you, right?
    0:05:04 Like, so what are you going to do?
    0:05:07 As though this is the end all be all of careers that you could choose.
    0:05:08 Like, what are you going to do other than this?
    0:05:12 And I was like, well, almost literally anything else would make me happier.
    0:05:16 But and if you’re there, I feel you.
    0:05:20 So what happened was I told them, by the way, I’m starting my own business.
    0:05:22 I’m going to go do my own business full time.
    0:05:24 And they’re like, what type of business are you going to start?
    0:05:27 Well, I was like, well, I actually have a multi-six figure CFO practice
    0:05:31 and a top 100 entrepreneurship podcast already.
    0:05:33 And they were like, wait, what?
    0:05:35 They were like, wait a second, what are you talking about?
    0:05:38 And I said, none of y’all have Googled me over the last two years, luckily.
    0:05:42 But if you Google me, that is what will come up on LinkedIn, on Facebook.
    0:05:46 I was super quiet, but on Instagram and on other platforms, I was building.
    0:05:49 So I knew my coworkers were not on these platforms.
    0:05:52 So I was freely able to build these types of things.
    0:05:55 And I was able to show up and deliver value and teach.
    0:05:58 Here’s the brilliant part, though, about that is I was showing up
    0:06:02 and I wasn’t like selling a ton on Instagram.
    0:06:03 I wasn’t showing up and selling.
    0:06:05 I was delivering value over the course of two years.
    0:06:08 I was not starving to sell people something.
    0:06:10 I just showed up and tried to build an audience.
    0:06:14 So then when I finally quit the job and I was
    0:06:18 able to openly talk about my business and to promote it on all platforms,
    0:06:20 I was like, and by the way, now I get something to sell you guys.
    0:06:24 So it was super exciting to be able to kind of be open
    0:06:27 and be out there as a business owner and be proud of it.
    0:06:31 I don’t think you need to wait that long or see that level of income
    0:06:32 before you take the leap.
    0:06:34 But on the other side of it, you’ve got people like
    0:06:40 Kevin Klein, who quit his job after the side business had earned just 50 bucks.
    0:06:44 We made 50 bucks and I was at this point where I was depressed
    0:06:46 and hated every job I ever had and knew that if I stayed there,
    0:06:48 I would just be miserable the rest of my life.
    0:06:50 Our marriage was struggling because of it.
    0:06:52 And Brittany was sick and tired of me complaining.
    0:06:56 So I said, hey, we didn’t just jump without having our finances ordered.
    0:06:58 We still had a lot of student loan debt, but we had at least six months
    0:07:01 of nest egg where we could live off of that in Brittany’s salary.
    0:07:04 So I’m not having to make horrible decisions based on
    0:07:07 where’s the income coming from and trying to make money quick.
    0:07:10 So that was a huge blessing to have that income saved up.
    0:07:12 And then I just had confidence in myself.
    0:07:14 I’ve had a bunch of businesses.
    0:07:17 I did dropshipping in college and so I’ve made money online.
    0:07:22 But that $50 was like a is just a signal of like go all in and you can find
    0:07:24 freelance work with digital marketing because you’ve been doing it.
    0:07:28 And within two months, I replaced my income with freelancing in our blog.
    0:07:32 You can check out those full episodes with Shannon and Kellen for more.
    0:07:37 Those are number 553 and 605 in your archives.
    0:07:40 You want to scroll back in your app to find those in Shannon’s case.
    0:07:45 We talked about her using Instagram and her podcasts to build an audience,
    0:07:47 build relationships with potential customers.
    0:07:52 And with Kellen, it was how an online business can thrive in a post HCU world,
    0:07:54 a post helpful content update world.
    0:07:58 Now, if your business is seasonal, another consideration is, well,
    0:08:01 I want to make it through a whole cycle so I can kind of get a full picture of
    0:08:04 what this is going to look like, hopefully for the next 12 months.
    0:08:08 But still, it’s a big responsibility to write your own paycheck every month
    0:08:12 and having a track record of doing that before you leave your job.
    0:08:15 I think we’ll ease that anxiety in a big way.
    0:08:19 We have more questions to ask before you quit your job right after this.
    0:08:24 That’s the sound of another sale on your online Shopify store.
    0:08:27 But did you know Shopify powers in person selling to?
    0:08:31 It’s true. Shopify is the sound of selling everywhere online,
    0:08:33 in store, on social media and beyond.
    0:08:38 Shopify POS is your command center for your retail store.
    0:08:42 That means you can accept payments, manage inventory and track every sale
    0:08:44 across your business in one place.
    0:08:48 With Shopify, you get a powerhouse selling partner that helps you drive store
    0:08:52 traffic with plug and play tools built for marketing campaigns from TikTok
    0:08:53 to Instagram and beyond.
    0:08:57 You can take payments by smartphone, transform your tablet into a point
    0:09:02 of sale system or use Shopify’s POS Go mobile device for a battle tested
    0:09:06 solution. Plus, Shopify’s award winning help is there to support your success
    0:09:10 every step of the way. So do retail right with Shopify.
    0:09:16 Go ahead, sign up for a $1 per month trial period at Shopify.com/sidehustle.
    0:09:17 That’s all lowercase.
    0:09:23 Go to Shopify.com/sidehustle to take your retail business to the next level today.
    0:09:26 Shopify.com/sidehustle.
    0:09:29 So question two is how much is your side hustle earning?
    0:09:32 Question three is what’s your runway?
    0:09:35 And Kellen alluded to this just a moment ago.
    0:09:39 Like, well, we had a little bit of savings cushion and I think it’s really,
    0:09:43 really important to have that. So your runway or your cash cushion,
    0:09:46 this is the amount of cash you have socked away to be able to cover your
    0:09:50 living expenses while you’re working on building up your business.
    0:09:53 And it’s usually measured in the number of months, right?
    0:09:56 So some people will say, oh, you need at least three months of living expenses
    0:10:01 saved up in your emergency fund or six months. I’m more conservative.
    0:10:03 Income can be unpredictable.
    0:10:05 I like to have 12 months of living expenses.
    0:10:08 Other people think that’s insane. You don’t need that much,
    0:10:10 but in a moment of high cash yields, like we’re recording right now,
    0:10:12 it’s like, well, that’s totally fine.
    0:10:15 But the way you can calculate that is to add up all your monthly expenses
    0:10:20 and multiply by however many months of a runway or cushion would feel comfortable.
    0:10:23 If income, for whatever reason, went to zero,
    0:10:26 which was pretty much what happened to me right after I quit my job.
    0:10:31 This was when Google decided they didn’t like my little shoe site very much anymore
    0:10:34 and they wouldn’t take my advertising dollars for three months.
    0:10:40 With that ad account shutdown, the traffic, the income took probably an 80%
    0:10:44 hit in an instant and it took three months of literally pulling out my hair.
    0:10:48 Like I had hair at this point to come back and eventually they came back three months later.
    0:10:50 They said, look, we made an error. You’re good to go.
    0:10:54 And while that was a stressful time, it would have been way more stressful
    0:10:57 if I didn’t have that financial runway or cash cushion.
    0:11:00 Now, if you’re not sure where you’re at in terms of runway,
    0:11:05 I have a listen to the 30-day money cleanse episode that we did with Rachel
    0:11:09 Jimenez earlier this year on just kind of a step-by-step checklist or playbook
    0:11:12 to kind of get your personal finances in order there.
    0:11:15 That’s question number three. Have a look at your cash runway.
    0:11:19 What kind of living expenses or emergency fund have you got there?
    0:11:22 And another call to keep your expenses low because that means
    0:11:25 that’s less you’re going to have to save up for that runway.
    0:11:30 The question four is what does your sales pipeline look like?
    0:11:32 And this could be for service providers.
    0:11:34 This could be for online business owners,
    0:11:38 website owners, like do you have clients and sales in the pipeline?
    0:11:40 And maybe they’re not closed yet.
    0:11:43 Maybe they’re not fully like in that receivables column yet.
    0:11:47 But do you have a process to acquire the next customer?
    0:11:49 We’ve seen people. I started a consulting business.
    0:11:53 I landed one client and then that gave me the confidence to quit my job.
    0:11:55 But then the next month, it’s kind of this feast or famine.
    0:11:59 Oh, well, now I shoot that job dried up and now I got to go find another client.
    0:12:02 Right. So what is the sales pipeline look like?
    0:12:06 And I think that’s essential to get a pulse on before you take the leap.
    0:12:09 This is the only way to secure that you have a viable business
    0:12:12 and that you didn’t just get lucky with a referral client or two.
    0:12:14 Right. What’s the repeatable system here?
    0:12:18 In my case, I had a system for building out advertising campaigns
    0:12:21 for the shoe site, and I could see how if I just had more time
    0:12:24 to dedicate to it, the business would grow.
    0:12:26 It was proven. It was repeatable.
    0:12:27 It just needed more time and attention.
    0:12:31 So that’s question for what is your sales pipeline look like?
    0:12:37 Number five is is your full time job preventing you from growing your side hustle,
    0:12:39 which in my case, it absolutely was.
    0:12:41 It’s easy to sit back and imagine all the great stuff you could do
    0:12:45 if you just freed up an extra 40, 50 hours a week
    0:12:48 that you’re pouring into your day job or more, if you count commute time.
    0:12:52 And that’s what it was in my case, where there was a clear and direct path
    0:12:56 of the day job is preventing the side hustle from going.
    0:12:59 Nate Jackson put it this way in episode three ninety nine.
    0:13:02 When I was running the numbers for myself, yeah,
    0:13:06 it was costing me money to go to my job because like,
    0:13:09 if I’m not working on my business, if I’m not sourcing, I’m not packing things.
    0:13:14 I know what my hourly wage is for my business based on my numbers.
    0:13:18 So then I was going to work like, OK, well, I’m making like 25 bucks an hour at work.
    0:13:21 I’m making 100 bucks an hour working on my business with 200 bucks an hour.
    0:13:25 Like I need to stop going to work because this is costing a lot of money.
    0:13:27 Yeah, yeah, that’s awesome to get to that point.
    0:13:28 Isn’t that an interesting way to frame it?
    0:13:31 My day job is costing me money
    0:13:34 because there’s always an opportunity cost on where we spend our time.
    0:13:38 Now, the flip side of that is have you exhausted all the side hustle growth potential?
    0:13:40 You can’t in the limited hours that you have.
    0:13:42 Is time really the bottleneck?
    0:13:45 Is the day job really the thing that’s preventing you from growing it?
    0:13:47 Or with a little creativity?
    0:13:50 Could you get more leverage out of the hours you do have?
    0:13:51 I think it’s probably worth the thought
    0:13:53 exercise to ask yourself that question as well.
    0:13:54 That’s number five.
    0:13:58 Is your full time job preventing you from growing your side hustle?
    0:14:04 Number six is how are your costs going to increase or decrease after you quit?
    0:14:07 Because becoming a full time entrepreneur is going to impact your budget.
    0:14:10 Probably both positively and negatively.
    0:14:14 For example, if you plan to work from home, your commuting costs might go down,
    0:14:19 but your energy bill might go up when I turned in the keys to my company car,
    0:14:22 which was seriously one of the best perks of my old job.
    0:14:24 It was for a car company, so it made sense.
    0:14:25 They’re giving people company cars.
    0:14:26 So I had to go get a new set of wheels.
    0:14:29 I had to start paying for car insurance, the vehicle purchase.
    0:14:31 OK, that’s a one time expense.
    0:14:34 But the insurance, that was a new recurring expense.
    0:14:37 Now, if your business is location independent,
    0:14:40 you might actually be able to recognize a huge cost savings
    0:14:45 by relocating to a lower cost of living area or an area with lower taxes,
    0:14:49 which was one of the side benefits of us moving back to Washington
    0:14:54 and no income tax state from California, a notoriously high income tax state.
    0:14:57 But it could also mean an opportunity to explore other parts of the world,
    0:15:01 run your business from the road, play that digital nomad lifestyle for a little bit,
    0:15:05 keep those expenses low, which may be one way that your costs increase or decrease
    0:15:08 after you quit. I think the biggest wildcard expense
    0:15:13 for the newly self-employed in the US, at least, is health insurance.
    0:15:14 This is significant.
    0:15:17 This is potential put a kink in your plans to quit your job
    0:15:20 because this expense can be so big and someone that you definitely have
    0:15:23 to account for before you make the leap.
    0:15:26 You can shop around on your local state exchange,
    0:15:31 but unfortunately, the options aren’t going to be great no matter where you live.
    0:15:34 Robert Farrington described it in this way on our episode
    0:15:37 on 10 rules to build wealth.
    0:15:40 That was one of the scariest questions before making the leap
    0:15:42 to first like being self-employed.
    0:15:44 It’s like, what are we going to do for health insurance?
    0:15:45 And it’s like a common one.
    0:15:49 And honestly, we just went to the Covered California ACA exchange
    0:15:51 and bought health insurance policy.
    0:15:55 My wife and I joke that it is not health insurance, it’s bankruptcy insurance,
    0:16:00 because we have the privilege of paying $1,500 a month for our family of four.
    0:16:03 And that is for a high deductible plan.
    0:16:05 So every time we go to the doctor,
    0:16:09 we pay out of pocket until like I think $12,000 to you guys.
    0:16:10 So you pay your premium every month.
    0:16:15 So $18,000 a year and you’re going to pay another 12 grand
    0:16:16 before you see any benefit from this plan.
    0:16:21 Yeah. And granted, the benefit is that my cash pay price is a negotiated cash.
    0:16:22 That’s so nice of them.
    0:16:24 It’s so nice of them.
    0:16:28 But on the flip side, it does protect you if you are in like a catastrophic
    0:16:31 like where you’re really getting the benefit of this insurance is theoretically
    0:16:33 if you had a really bad medical problem, right?
    0:16:35 And then like millions of dollars in bills.
    0:16:39 But for it really sucks on the day to day where a healthy family knock on wood
    0:16:43 and like we pay a lot for not much.
    0:16:45 That’s question six.
    0:16:48 Get an understanding of how your costs are going to increase or decrease
    0:16:50 after you quit your job.
    0:16:55 Number seven is what is your realistic worst case scenario?
    0:16:59 If everything suddenly comes crashing down around you, what happens?
    0:17:02 How does that impact your life, your business, your livelihood?
    0:17:05 I know this is kind of scary to think about it.
    0:17:08 Tim Ferriss calls it fear setting, but it’s an empowering question
    0:17:13 because when we really dig into it, the realistic worst case scenario
    0:17:15 probably isn’t life threatening.
    0:17:18 I mean, we tend to make things a bigger deal than they are.
    0:17:19 People quit their jobs all the time.
    0:17:21 The world keeps spinning.
    0:17:24 People do it who are far less prepared than you are.
    0:17:25 So you got to be honest.
    0:17:26 What’s your worst case scenario?
    0:17:28 You’re going to have to change your business model.
    0:17:30 You’re going to have to swallow your pride, go find another job.
    0:17:31 It’s not the end of the world.
    0:17:34 You’re going to have to crash in mom’s basement for a little bit.
    0:17:34 It’s not the end of the world.
    0:17:37 This bruise to the ego, for sure.
    0:17:41 But it’s all temporary and same same with success.
    0:17:41 It’s all temporary, right?
    0:17:43 You never know where it’s going to last.
    0:17:47 My guess is you’re going to be happier having taken the chance
    0:17:50 than to stay the course and wonder what if.
    0:17:54 Remember, this is one of the top five regrets of people on their deathbeds.
    0:17:56 There was a whole book on this topic.
    0:18:00 It was I wish I’d had the courage to live a life true to myself,
    0:18:03 not the life others expected of me.
    0:18:06 And so that is question number seven, kind of itemizing out.
    0:18:08 Well, what’s your realistic worst case scenario?
    0:18:11 If this goes to zero, what am I going to do?
    0:18:15 And kind of having that back in case of emergency, break glass, kind of a plan
    0:18:20 there will help you be more comfortable and confident quitting your job.
    0:18:25 So to summarize in this episode, number one, are you quitting to something
    0:18:26 or from something?
    0:18:29 I advise having something to quit to.
    0:18:32 And obviously, if you’re listening to the side hustle show, my guess is that
    0:18:33 it’s a profitable side hustle.
    0:18:36 Number two is how much is your side hustle earning?
    0:18:40 Got to validate that with real dollars before you make the leap.
    0:18:44 And hopefully you have a track record where it is at least covering your fixed
    0:18:48 expenses. And of course, we’ve seen some exceptions to that rule.
    0:18:51 Some people quitting their job very early on that spectrum and other people
    0:18:56 waiting until it was already a super, super profitable business more than even
    0:18:58 sometimes my day job was making.
    0:19:00 But that’s question two, how much is your side hustle earning?
    0:19:02 Three, what’s your runway?
    0:19:04 How many months of living expenses do you have saved up?
    0:19:07 Other people will call this what’s your emergency fund?
    0:19:09 But have that on lockdown.
    0:19:10 Make sure you know what that number is.
    0:19:15 And if you have to tap into that emergency fund that you’re going to be OK.
    0:19:18 Number four is what is your sales pipeline look like?
    0:19:20 Sure, you had sales coming in today.
    0:19:21 Sure, you had customers today.
    0:19:25 What’s next two, three, four months down the road?
    0:19:27 Do you have a prediction of what revenue is going to be like there?
    0:19:31 Number five is is your full time job preventing you from growing your side
    0:19:34 hustle or with a little creativity?
    0:19:38 Is there a way you can get more leverage out of the hours that you do have,
    0:19:39 the limited hours that you do have?
    0:19:43 Number six is understand how your costs are going to increase or decrease.
    0:19:45 Remember, some may go up, some may go down.
    0:19:49 You may recognize a huge savings if you change locations to a lower
    0:19:52 cost of living area, but you may have to go plunk down for health insurance
    0:19:55 that you didn’t used to have if that was covered by your employer.
    0:19:59 And finally, number seven is what’s your realistic worst case scenario?
    0:20:03 Being honest with yourself about what’s the worst thing that could happen.
    0:20:07 And hopefully we’ll give you a little bit more freedom and confidence
    0:20:10 to take that leap because remember, you’re more likely to regret
    0:20:13 the chances that you didn’t take than playing the conservative route the whole time.
    0:20:15 So that is it for me.
    0:20:18 Thank you so much for tuning in until next time.
    0:20:20 Let’s go out there and make something happen.
    0:20:24 And I’ll catch you in the next edition of the side hustle show hustle on.
    0:20:28 As a side hustle show listener, I know you’re driven.
    0:20:29 Otherwise, you wouldn’t be here.
    0:20:34 But I also know you can end up hustling and driving yourself into exhaustion,
    0:20:38 overwhelm and even burnout if you don’t stay anchored to why you’re doing it.
    0:20:42 That’s why I want to recommend another podcast that will massively
    0:20:43 support your side hustle.
    0:20:46 It’s called What Drives You with host Kevin Miller.
    0:20:48 Kevin’s a former pro athlete.
    0:20:51 He’s a lifelong entrepreneur who started 19 different businesses.
    0:20:56 He’s a father of nine kids, an author and a mountain adventurer as well.
    0:21:00 He knows both the glory and the dark side of drive and has devoted his life
    0:21:03 to helping people who want to drive further, faster,
    0:21:06 but also enjoy the ride every single day.
    0:21:09 He brings on today’s most influential people in personal and business development
    0:21:13 to see what drives them and get their guidance on the key ingredients
    0:21:15 that power our own drive.
    0:21:18 If you want to fully harness your drive and find peace and fulfillment in the
    0:21:23 process, go find What Drives You with Kevin Miller, wherever you listen to podcasts.

    Are you ready to hand in your two week’s notice and become your own boss?

    Not so fast.

    Quitting your job to pursue your business full-time is a dream for many side hustlers, but there are a few things you should have in place before you make the leap.

    When I was working in my corporate gig, I probably stuck around longer than I needed to because I’m a little more risk averse. I was out to dinner with my boss in Eureka, CA … and it wasn’t until my second beer I finally got up the nerve to tell him I was leaving.

    Since I’d been thinking about it for at least a year, it felt amazing to get that off my chest. But it wasn’t a spur-of-the-moment decision or a triumphant flip-off-everyone-in-the-office-and-make-a-dramatic-exit.

    It was the result of 3 years of hustling nights and weeks to build my business (the now-defunct footwear comparison shopping site).

    Here are the most important questions to answer before you make the leap.

    Full Show Notes: 7 Questions to Ask Before You Quit Your Job

    New to the Show? Get your personalized money-making playlist here!

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  • 617: Scaling to a 7-Figure Sale: Affiliate Marketing Beyond SEO

    AI transcript
    0:00:04 From a side hustle to a seven figure exit, how the part time projects
    0:00:07 we talk about can truly be life changing.
    0:00:08 What’s up, what’s up, Nick?
    0:00:09 Hello for here.
    0:00:13 Welcome to the Side Hustle Show, part of the entrepreneur podcast network
    0:00:18 because your nine to five may make you a living, but your five to nine makes you alive.
    0:00:20 So for this one, I got to take you back in time.
    0:00:22 It is 2019.
    0:00:26 We hear from a couple guys on the Side Hustle Show about their little part time
    0:00:27 website, that little side hustle.
    0:00:32 It’s about a year old and they’re writing these in-depth product review
    0:00:36 articles in these product comparison posts, this brand versus this brand,
    0:00:39 that kind of thing, monetizing this site with affiliate partnerships.
    0:00:43 And they’re doing around 20 grand a month, fantastic results, right?
    0:00:45 For a one year old site.
    0:00:48 Well, that site was finn versus finn.com.
    0:00:54 And it recently sold just a few months ago actually for a seven figure sum.
    0:00:56 That’s a million dollars plus for those scoring at home.
    0:01:01 Now, co-founder Alex Goldberg is here to catch us up on what’s working today
    0:01:06 in a volatile SEO landscape and how website owners can still position
    0:01:10 themselves for success while relying less and less on organic traffic.
    0:01:13 Alex, welcome back to the Side Hustle Show.
    0:01:14 Thanks so much.
    0:01:14 Great to be here.
    0:01:15 Great to see you, Nick.
    0:01:16 Absolutely.
    0:01:17 Looking forward to this one.
    0:01:20 If you’re tuning in, you’ve been burned by algorithm updates like a lot
    0:01:22 of us have over the last few months.
    0:01:26 If you make money as an affiliate or if you want to stick around in this one,
    0:01:31 we’re talking about the traffic source that really saved finn versus finn.
    0:01:36 We’re talking about de-risking your business and some common mistakes
    0:01:37 to avoid along the way.
    0:01:40 But I got to start off with the seven figure deposit.
    0:01:41 What happens when that wire hits the account?
    0:01:45 Obviously, it’s been a dream forever to experience that moment.
    0:01:48 And that’s often why you might build a Side Hustle or build a business in general.
    0:01:50 I can say it’s not super life changing.
    0:01:55 Maybe if I had a few extra zeros on the end, it would be, but maybe not as well.
    0:01:59 I think my role as a dad and a partner and a friend and all of that kind
    0:02:01 of continues on and I like to build things.
    0:02:03 So likely not going to change much.
    0:02:07 But yeah, you keep refreshing that screen a few times to make sure it’s real.
    0:02:08 And it’s not going away.
    0:02:11 And then quickly get back to business.
    0:02:15 And in my case, selling my business meant transitioning it over to new owners.
    0:02:19 So there was still kind of a lot to be done, even in that exhilarating moment
    0:02:21 of feeling like a millionaire, I guess.
    0:02:24 Right. You see it hit, but the work isn’t quite done yet.
    0:02:27 And it’s kind of it’s almost anti climactic in a way, because you’ve been
    0:02:30 it’s not a surprise you’ve been building toward it probably for months
    0:02:32 in terms of due diligence and negotiations and everything else.
    0:02:37 But was there a treat yourself moment or do you go out and buy anything?
    0:02:41 You know, it’s funny, I deferred a lot of purchases, kind of clenching
    0:02:45 and making sure that it was going to be actually sold.
    0:02:47 So yeah, there was a few Amazon purchases here and there,
    0:02:51 things for my family that I kept saying, you know, maybe we should hold off
    0:02:53 until the money hits, but I like to play golf.
    0:02:56 So I plan to treat myself to a lesson and try and get better
    0:02:58 and get my wife involved as well.
    0:03:00 Maybe we can take lessons together.
    0:03:03 OK, and yeah, we went out to a nice dinner, a closing dinner, so to speak,
    0:03:05 which is really great too.
    0:03:07 Yeah, business as usual is shortly thereafter.
    0:03:13 It’s I don’t want to make it sound unexciting, but still, you know, work to be done.
    0:03:15 I can’t hang up the jersey quite yet. Well, very good.
    0:03:17 There’s always more work to be done.
    0:03:19 That’s always the question of, well, what next?
    0:03:21 What now? That’s sometimes the harder question to answer.
    0:03:25 But I think it’s a really cool and exciting story because, hey,
    0:03:30 little side hustle project started 2018, which I would have said was late
    0:03:35 to the quote unquote blogging game, but still found a way to make it work
    0:03:36 and make it work quite well.
    0:03:40 The saving grace or maybe one of the saving graces was kind of like
    0:03:44 when we earlier spoke, it was very much an SEO play.
    0:03:48 We’re going to write these really in depth, long tail articles,
    0:03:52 trying to make the best thing on the Internet for this specific query
    0:03:57 and really help that buyer make their decision on this product versus this product.
    0:03:59 Or, you know, is this thing legit? Is this going to be worthwhile?
    0:04:03 And then saying, well, we could still play that game.
    0:04:08 But while we’re doing that, why don’t we see if we can buy traffic profitably?
    0:04:11 And it’s kind of the where we want to go in this conversation is this idea
    0:04:16 of ads arbitrage and diversifying away from strictly SEO.
    0:04:19 And it’s interesting because this was my 20 years ago.
    0:04:22 This was like my first side hustle, very much reliant on paid traffic,
    0:04:26 driving clicks to these shoe comparison, like, where can I find the best price
    0:04:29 of my next pair of shoes type of pages?
    0:04:32 And at that time, it was the search landscape or the paid traffic landscape
    0:04:36 was a little bit different than it is today, but kind of the same model.
    0:04:38 Everything old is new again.
    0:04:43 Are you able to speak to when that started and how are you able to ramp it up?
    0:04:45 Yeah, I had forgotten that that was your actually your first
    0:04:48 side hustle or that you have some experience and that’s amazing.
    0:04:50 Yeah. So a couple of years into the business,
    0:04:55 we were doing well from an SEO perspective and generating a lot of organic traffic.
    0:04:59 But it always felt to me like a flamingo standing on one leg
    0:05:01 and just from a risk perspective, right?
    0:05:06 Like maybe a big gust, a big SEO update will come and blow us over.
    0:05:10 Maybe some competition will come in and that’s always the case, right?
    0:05:13 Like your very best keywords, you often can only rank for so long.
    0:05:16 And then a bigger publisher comes in and decides to take your cake.
    0:05:19 I always just felt like diversity was the name of the game
    0:05:23 and needed to figure out a new way to diversify the traffic, the earnings.
    0:05:26 In thinking about that, there’s many different avenues to do so.
    0:05:29 So a lot of people try and own their audience through an email list
    0:05:31 or through a social media following.
    0:05:34 And then I think that’s a really sound smart strategy.
    0:05:39 In fact, it’s probably the way to go in today’s SEO world being as choppy as it is.
    0:05:41 It’s probably the only game in town.
    0:05:42 I know you do that quite well, Nick.
    0:05:45 You have a large following and keep them engaged.
    0:05:47 So I think that’s a really strong route.
    0:05:51 But the other one, the social media game is a little weak, but the email game is OK.
    0:05:52 Always room for improvement.
    0:05:55 And for a time, there was an email component.
    0:05:57 But it was, if I remember correctly,
    0:06:01 it was kind of hard to get people searching for some super specific brand
    0:06:07 named Query to join an email list about the top 10 direct to consumer health brands
    0:06:09 or something was a little bit of a stretch.
    0:06:10 Exactly. Yeah.
    0:06:12 I think it was hard for us to find something that would be interesting enough
    0:06:15 for people to follow on because it was too broad.
    0:06:17 Our niche wasn’t niched down enough.
    0:06:20 Yeah. So that’s also some advice for where to start.
    0:06:23 I think for folks listening or interested in is my niche too big.
    0:06:25 Is it too small in some ways?
    0:06:27 A good way to answer that question would be, would somebody sign up
    0:06:28 for an email list for this?
    0:06:30 And if so, what would I talk about?
    0:06:34 Because if you’re able to kind of niche it down to something that people
    0:06:37 are interested in week over week, month over month, then, you know,
    0:06:39 that might be worth building an audience for.
    0:06:42 But in the case of in versus fin, it’s challenging.
    0:06:43 We were health and wellness focus.
    0:06:44 That’s very broad.
    0:06:47 And what I found to be the case is that most people are interested
    0:06:50 in a very specific health condition or solving a health problem.
    0:06:55 So hair loss or skin care, those are really broad, but they’re starting
    0:06:59 to get niched down enough to build an engaging audience that you can engage over time.
    0:07:02 But staying really broad, health and wellness.
    0:07:05 It was tough for us to build an audience, an owned audience, my social
    0:07:09 media or email list that would be engaged and hard to know what topics
    0:07:13 to continuously serve that crowd, given how broad it was.
    0:07:17 So the other way that I thought I could diversify the traffic and also
    0:07:20 given my experience, I’ve worked as a growth marketer and a few startups
    0:07:24 and therefore had a good amount of paid ad experience.
    0:07:28 So I thought, hey, why don’t I try to run some paid ads and see if maybe
    0:07:31 I can make the math work out such that I buy the ads at a certain cost.
    0:07:35 I drive the traffic to a landing page and I’m able to create
    0:07:38 affiliate revenue that is higher than the cost of the ads.
    0:07:40 So kind of an arbitrage play there.
    0:07:42 And it actually seemed easier in some ways.
    0:07:46 I know it sounds complicated for most people to think about that and sounds
    0:07:48 risky and like you have to watch numbers all the time.
    0:07:52 But it actually sounded easier for me than figuring out how I’m going
    0:07:55 to get a million followers on social media or newsletter.
    0:07:59 Yeah, I mean, it was easier for me starting out too.
    0:08:02 It’s like, well, I don’t know anything about SEO, but I could kind of buy
    0:08:04 my way to the top of the search results.
    0:08:08 It’s a shortcut in a way if you can make the numbers work.
    0:08:12 Exactly. So really where to start is another reason I should say it feels
    0:08:16 very de-risked is you already know what keywords are working from an organic
    0:08:20 perspective from a Google ads perspective or a search ads perspective.
    0:08:23 You can quite literally target those exact same keywords from a paid
    0:08:28 perspective and you have all the math worked out in terms of what is the
    0:08:31 conversion rate on that page and what is the commission rate resulting
    0:08:32 from that conversion.
    0:08:36 And so you can back into the cost of ads quite easily before you even
    0:08:40 spend a single dollar and you can have quite a bit of confidence that maybe
    0:08:44 this is worth putting a dollar in to get one and a half dollars out or
    0:08:44 something like that.
    0:08:49 So it seemed like an obvious play for me at the time because I had a nice
    0:08:53 set of partners and a nice set of keywords that we were already ranking
    0:08:53 for organically.
    0:08:57 So really trying to double down I think was the impetus was how do I get
    0:08:59 more from from these keywords.
    0:09:02 I already know that we’re ranking for and are quite lucrative.
    0:09:07 How do I de-risk my business at the same time as double down on what’s working.
    0:09:10 Yeah. Even if you are ranking organically it’s a chance to double
    0:09:14 dip and take up more screen real estate on that first page even if you
    0:09:16 do have to pay for some of those clicks.
    0:09:19 Exactly. And the other thing I guess the other motivation was I just saw
    0:09:21 other people doing this when you Google something.
    0:09:24 If they’re making it work, you know why exactly.
    0:09:27 And in fact, it became clear to me over time that these big publishers that I
    0:09:32 was competing against the Forbes, the health lines in my case, but even big
    0:09:37 newspapers, whether it’s New York Times, LA Times, Chicago Tribune, like it
    0:09:38 doesn’t matter USA today.
    0:09:43 All of these guys have a big paid media strategy, paid media arbitrage strategy,
    0:09:47 which means that they’re buying keywords essentially and driving traffic to a
    0:09:49 landing page and then making money as an affiliate.
    0:09:50 Interesting.
    0:09:51 And it’s primarily affiliate.
    0:09:54 It’s not necessarily like a display ads play.
    0:09:56 Did you ever have display ads on Finn versus Finn?
    0:10:00 I did actually, but I think it’s quite hard just given the economics of the
    0:10:02 display ads, how little they pay these days.
    0:10:03 Right.
    0:10:06 So you generally have to have like a higher ticket conversion moment, but you
    0:10:09 can also include display ads on that page to help subsidize the cost.
    0:10:13 So it’s not like you have to just have one monetization method, but I do think
    0:10:15 that there has to be an affiliate play generally.
    0:10:18 Okay. So there was some precedence for doing this.
    0:10:19 Big publishers were doing this.
    0:10:24 You had some background in doing it at the day job and say, okay, I think we can
    0:10:29 make this work and we kind of have a sense of what a page you is going to be
    0:10:30 worth on average.
    0:10:34 So if we can buy traffic for less than that, then it should work out.
    0:10:38 And specifically with Google, it’s, I mean, I always thought this is like the
    0:10:40 greatest business model in the world.
    0:10:45 Like you can bid on the exact keywords like what your customer is typing in and
    0:10:49 you know, get in front of them as long as you’re willing to pay for that before
    0:10:50 setting up any of the ad stuff.
    0:10:55 Like what we’re using to track the page view value from an affiliate standpoint
    0:10:57 on the landing pages or on the site itself.
    0:11:01 At some point, our site scaled to hundreds of partners and they’re all
    0:11:03 across all different affiliate platforms.
    0:11:09 So impact, share a sale, partner rise, ever flow, you name it, hundreds,
    0:11:10 all down the long tail.
    0:11:13 If you’re just working with one partner or just a handful of partners, then
    0:11:15 they’re all on the same platform.
    0:11:15 It’s quite easy.
    0:11:18 You can just log into the platform itself and see, you know, how many
    0:11:22 commissions did you drive from that partner in a certain time range or on a
    0:11:23 certain page, et cetera.
    0:11:27 But if you’re promoting a bunch of different partners and they’re all on
    0:11:31 different platforms, you do need a tool to aggregate all of those earnings and
    0:11:35 all that data into one centralized place that you can look at every day without
    0:11:35 going crazy.
    0:11:37 At least I felt like I needed that.
    0:11:41 So in my case, I invested in a tool called Trackonomics.
    0:11:45 I guess I used a series of tools before that, but they all basically we outgrew
    0:11:46 them at some point.
    0:11:47 Okay.
    0:11:50 I was using one or I actually still am called affluent.
    0:11:54 I think affluent.io, which I think impact bought that one too, where it’s like,
    0:11:57 we’re going to pull in the data from a bunch of different affiliate networks.
    0:12:01 I think lasso will probably have the same functionality or similar functionality
    0:12:05 to where you can pull data in from a bunch of different sources who not trying
    0:12:07 to track that across 20 different logins.
    0:12:08 Exactly.
    0:12:08 Yeah.
    0:12:10 Affluent was the one that I used as well.
    0:12:12 And then they cut me off at some point.
    0:12:12 It’s no longer free.
    0:12:15 So I have not reached that tier yet.
    0:12:18 So played at a little smaller level.
    0:12:21 It’s a good problem to have, I suppose, but they do have direct access to how
    0:12:22 much money you’re making.
    0:12:26 So they know you can afford it, but lasso is a good one as well.
    0:12:28 I’ve used that as well in the past and tinkered with it.
    0:12:31 So the key here is that you do need a source of truth that’s reliable and
    0:12:35 that’s pulling in from multiple affiliate platforms into one place.
    0:12:37 And with that data, that’s actually really critical.
    0:12:42 We can talk about it at some point in the conversation, forbid optimization and
    0:12:46 passing the conversion data back into Google or whatever advertising platform
    0:12:49 you’re using to help optimize the spend.
    0:12:53 So it’s critical to have all this data in one place, not only for your own
    0:12:56 sanity to track things and understand if you’re making money from your ads.
    0:12:57 I would pause there.
    0:12:59 Like, do you like giving Google that data?
    0:13:04 That has always made me nervous to say, OK, a conversion is worth five bucks.
    0:13:08 And you just sent me this traffic for three.
    0:13:11 If I’m Google, I’m saying, hey, well, you got $2 a margin there.
    0:13:14 So like, naturally, I want to increase your costs.
    0:13:17 You know, kind of the basis line of your margin is my opportunity.
    0:13:18 I don’t know.
    0:13:22 It’s always made me nervous to give them that level of intel and how profitable
    0:13:23 or not the campaign was.
    0:13:27 If you aren’t a very sophisticated ad buyer, Google very likely will,
    0:13:30 like with certain settings in your campaign, Google will eat your margin away.
    0:13:35 But that you can also set up kind of restrictions or parameters within your
    0:13:38 campaign to target a certain return on investment as an example.
    0:13:39 OK.
    0:13:42 Google knows that if you’re not achieving your marketing goals,
    0:13:44 you will pause spend altogether.
    0:13:48 So I think the incentive for them to keep the money flowing is larger
    0:13:50 than for them to eat your margin.
    0:13:53 Although if you don’t watch your ad spend and you leave it up to Google
    0:13:57 just to spend freely, then very likely they will eat away your margin.
    0:13:59 They’re happy to do that for you.
    0:14:02 The M.O. seems to be to have all these like entry level employees
    0:14:06 on a quarterly rotating basis, be your ads account rep.
    0:14:09 And they always call you up and they’re very eager about selling you
    0:14:09 on the next thing.
    0:14:12 And the answer is always, well, have you tried performance max?
    0:14:14 So, you know, have you tried increasing your budget?
    0:14:15 It’s like, I don’t think you understand.
    0:14:18 Like you said, there’s these ROI parameters we’re trying to operate in.
    0:14:22 Yeah, I constantly joke with the new rep who gets inevitably gets assigned
    0:14:25 to you after two months of the previous one working with you, right?
    0:14:27 With no context and no handoff whatsoever.
    0:14:30 At this point, I just tell them I’m really not interested in working with you.
    0:14:32 I’ve really negative associations.
    0:14:35 I haven’t had a great experience with most of my Google reps.
    0:14:36 You’re probably an exception.
    0:14:38 You’re probably great and often can provide a lot of insight.
    0:14:42 But I just want to be clear that I’m not going to try a performance max campaign.
    0:14:46 I’ve already run that experiment unless there’s really things that you can
    0:14:48 move the needle on in the short term and that you can send me over email.
    0:14:50 I’m not interested in spending the time.
    0:14:52 I know it sounds really jaded.
    0:14:54 Yeah, they never we got some suggestions for you.
    0:14:55 We got some recommendations for your account. Cool.
    0:14:57 Send them over email. No, we can’t do that.
    0:14:59 Like that’s like big red flag.
    0:15:00 Totally, totally.
    0:15:02 And, you know, at the end of the day, you understand their incentives.
    0:15:03 They’re hired sales rep.
    0:15:06 They’re not a consultant that’s just there to help you.
    0:15:08 They’re looking to increase your spend.
    0:15:11 So almost all the recommendations are going to lead to that outcome.
    0:15:16 More with Alex in just a moment, including the highest performing types of landing pages
    0:15:19 you can send traffic to and the dollars and cents math it takes
    0:15:23 to make this profitable in your niche right after this.
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    0:16:39 OK, so would an example landing page be brand X versus brand Y, like that type
    0:16:42 of comparison posts, the stuff that was ranking organically?
    0:16:45 Or is it more this specific product review?
    0:16:48 Where did you see the best results in sending traffic to paid wise?
    0:16:52 Kind of going in line with this idea of seeing this out in the world
    0:16:54 and kind of basically copying what’s working.
    0:16:58 I would Google things in my niche, this brand versus that brand
    0:17:02 or the best XYZ for ZYX or this review.
    0:17:05 I’d Google all these things and I would see paid results.
    0:17:08 And they almost always, in almost every single case,
    0:17:12 the paid results landing page was a top five or top 10 landing page.
    0:17:16 So just a list of links and with a few bullet points on each,
    0:17:21 maybe a rating or a review, maybe a link to a review in some cases.
    0:17:25 But for the most part, it was really just here’s the number one option
    0:17:27 for that query at the very top of the page.
    0:17:29 And then there’s four others.
    0:17:33 And, you know, very likely that top option is the one that’s paying
    0:17:35 the brand or the affiliate the most.
    0:17:40 But in all cases or in most cases, the brand or the publisher, whoever’s
    0:17:43 running these ads and creating the landing page is likely partnered
    0:17:46 with all four or five of them so they don’t really care which one of them.
    0:17:47 Sure. Click on.
    0:17:49 But that’s the general setup of the page.
    0:17:52 And you can sort of see from the economic incentives of the publisher
    0:17:56 or the advertiser, the affiliate in this case, they want to give you
    0:17:59 a lot of options, but make it easy for you to choose one of them.
    0:18:02 And that’s how the math is going to work out for them to outlay
    0:18:04 that I’d spend in the beginning.
    0:18:08 OK. And did you end up creating separate pages, paid landing pages versus organics?
    0:18:12 Like, maybe I don’t need 3,000 words of copy if I really just want somebody
    0:18:14 to click this thing from an ad landing page.
    0:18:16 Yeah, exactly.
    0:18:19 Thinking about it more as a landing page rather than content is key.
    0:18:23 So really, really separate work streams and in the indexed rather
    0:18:26 than sort of in the Google index and getting muddied or not muddy,
    0:18:31 but basically and not having a clear transparency on where the traffic
    0:18:33 is coming from and where the conversions are coming from.
    0:18:38 So so really creating a separate page just for paid that has as few exit
    0:18:41 ramps as possible, except for to the affiliate partners.
    0:18:45 So you’re likely trimming down the navigational bar at the top,
    0:18:49 likely minimizing the footer in the bottom, definitely minimizing
    0:18:52 the content on the page other than just what is needed to get somebody
    0:18:55 to understand their options, choose the one that’s best for them
    0:18:59 and then go on to that partner and do a little bit more research on the road.
    0:19:01 OK, did you ever get in trouble?
    0:19:06 Like my ad account early on for the shoe business would occasionally
    0:19:09 get slapped for being like a bridge page account.
    0:19:13 They say the sole purpose of your landing page is to drive traffic
    0:19:15 to another page, another site.
    0:19:19 And it’s like, well, yeah, that’s how I get paid.
    0:19:21 I don’t know, they wanted something else.
    0:19:24 We would have to rework the landing pages every now and again,
    0:19:26 and like try and add more content.
    0:19:31 And it was all going to be template driven or what you might call programmatic
    0:19:34 because it’s like, well, there’s 100,000 pairs of shoes or 300,000 pairs of shoes.
    0:19:37 Like we’re not going to write an individual article for all this stuff.
    0:19:41 So we’re going to have to pull that copy from the feeds,
    0:19:44 from the product catalogs provided by the retailers in a lot of cases.
    0:19:47 Is that still a thing or they are less strict about that now?
    0:19:49 Maybe I just didn’t start it early enough,
    0:19:52 but I haven’t ever gotten that block from Google.
    0:19:55 Yeah, in general, they’ve been pretty happy to take the ad spend
    0:19:57 and even help you increase it right through the account reps.
    0:20:02 It’s sometimes been hard to describe to the account reps exactly what the flow is.
    0:20:07 And the fact that a conversion doesn’t happen on my side, it happens on a third party site.
    0:20:11 It’s hard sometimes for the Google rep or for internal teams at Google
    0:20:14 to understand this flow, but in general, it’s become so common,
    0:20:17 which is surprising if they’ve got Forbes in New York Times,
    0:20:18 they’ve got other big publishers doing the same thing.
    0:20:24 It’s become so common now that I think it’s no longer on their list of not allowed kind of advertising.
    0:20:27 There are some restrictions and I can get into that specifically on brand names
    0:20:30 in my niche on drug names.
    0:20:35 You’re not allowed to bid on drug names, things like Viagra or Finasteride for hair loss.
    0:20:38 You cannot bid on those keywords unless you’re a pharmacy.
    0:20:41 So you need a specific kind of certification called legit script,
    0:20:45 which costs tens of thousands of dollars a year and you have to be a real pharmacy.
    0:20:50 You can’t just be a normal person paying this money and then going to town and bidding on drug names.
    0:20:53 So there are some restrictions like in that case, you could go a little bit broader.
    0:20:58 You could say, you know, the best hair loss products or the best things to prevent hair loss is something like that.
    0:20:59 Exactly. Yeah.
    0:21:05 As long as you’re being broad enough, things like even like a rectile dysfunction,
    0:21:07 like even just the condition itself.
    0:21:11 But as long as you’re not specifically talking about the brand in some cases
    0:21:14 or the drug name, the actual kind of technical drug name.
    0:21:16 But I think there are other restrictions.
    0:21:17 Just to be clear, it depends on your niche.
    0:21:19 I think that there are likely other restrictions.
    0:21:22 I know you can’t bid on things like CBD.
    0:21:24 There’s restrictions there.
    0:21:30 And there’s also federal restrictions against discrimination in real estate and housing.
    0:21:32 So there’s protected categories, so to speak.
    0:21:34 And you have to every niche is a little bit different.
    0:21:40 But the restriction around brand names is both on the Google side in some cases,
    0:21:42 as well as the affiliate partners themselves.
    0:21:47 So the brands themselves may not be super happy for you to be bidding on their brand name
    0:21:50 and therefore driving up their own cost of ads, right?
    0:21:51 Because it’s an auction system.
    0:21:56 So if I bid up a lot on a brand’s brand name, they are likely paying a higher cost
    0:21:58 on their own brand name as well.
    0:22:00 And so brands can be quite particular about that.
    0:22:04 And it will require some persuading, essentially, to convince them
    0:22:08 that the conversions you’re driving them are incremental and that it’s still worthwhile
    0:22:12 to allow you the third party affiliate to bid on their brand name.
    0:22:15 OK, because that’s something I see very, very commonly.
    0:22:16 Here’s our affiliate terms and conditions.
    0:22:20 No paid traffic bidding on anything related to our brand name.
    0:22:24 We don’t want you to jump in front of that traffic that they, in theory,
    0:22:27 were going to get anyways if somebody was looking for that stuff.
    0:22:32 And so it’s kind of this you open the negotiation to say, I do this, I do this.
    0:22:34 Well, it’s going to be incremental.
    0:22:36 I mean, you show them some.
    0:22:40 How do you convince somebody to say, OK, we’ll make an exception for Finn versus Finn?
    0:22:45 The amount of objections or the objections that you’ll get to brand bidding,
    0:22:49 they call it TM plus, trademark plus bidding in general, or myriad.
    0:22:53 There’s a number of reasons why brands are not very interested in you doing that.
    0:22:56 They generally come down to you’re driving up the cost of my ads.
    0:22:58 It’s not brand safe.
    0:23:02 So we don’t want you as a third party to be discussing us.
    0:23:05 We want to just have the control over how our brand is presented.
    0:23:08 And then this idea of incrementality, which you mentioned, which is like,
    0:23:09 we’re going to get those anyway.
    0:23:12 So regardless of you drive up the cost, regardless of what you say, if it’s safe,
    0:23:16 we have a feeling we’re going to get those anyway, so we don’t want to pay for you for them.
    0:23:18 That’s kind of the broad based ones.
    0:23:22 And I’ve been quite successful in convincing brands that there is a space
    0:23:25 between all of those concerns, which are very valid and legit.
    0:23:28 And then there’s a very narrow space, but there’s a space between that.
    0:23:32 And what actually I as a third party affiliate
    0:23:37 can be more successful in promoting than they can be promoting it themselves.
    0:23:40 So an example of that would be comparison content, right?
    0:23:43 Like this brand versus that brand.
    0:23:49 Will the average consumer be more persuaded by one of those brands
    0:23:53 screaming from the hilltop, saying, yes, I am so good compared to my competitors.
    0:23:54 I am the best.
    0:23:57 Yeah, this is really going to be an unbiased article that is coming from our domain.
    0:23:59 Right. Exactly. Like we are the best.
    0:24:00 We know we’re the best.
    0:24:01 The other people are horrible.
    0:24:05 Is that going to resonate with people or is it going to be more plausible,
    0:24:10 more authentic, more reasonable to hear from a third party saying, hey,
    0:24:13 we’ve done the research, we’ve compared all of the top options.
    0:24:15 And after all of that time,
    0:24:18 we actually think that option A is the best for this kind of person.
    0:24:21 And option B is the best for another kind of person that seems more credible.
    0:24:24 It actually is more helpful to the user than it’s biased,
    0:24:27 but it’s less biased than the brand talking about it themselves.
    0:24:30 I think that’s actually a really sound argument.
    0:24:33 I’m not just saying that because it was lucrative or that it’s a good strategy.
    0:24:35 I think that’s actually the case.
    0:24:38 And a lot of brands can be convinced to at least try it out.
    0:24:42 The other way I’ve talked brands off the cliff is to say, you know what?
    0:24:45 You’re worried about the price of ads increasing.
    0:24:46 You’re worried about me bidding on your brand name
    0:24:49 or other key terms that you’re bidding on.
    0:24:54 And you’re worried about that inflating the costs because more advertiser entering the auction.
    0:24:56 Well, why don’t we just test it?
    0:24:59 Why don’t we just run it for three weeks and see how much your ads go up
    0:25:02 and how many conversions you get and how many conversions I get.
    0:25:05 And we’ll just do a quick look and see, you know,
    0:25:09 is this did you get net more conversions for the same amount of costs?
    0:25:12 Like what the cost proposition is it the same as it was before?
    0:25:13 But what’s the total number of conversions?
    0:25:16 Like we’ll just run the test and almost inevitably,
    0:25:18 almost, I think with very few exceptions,
    0:25:21 the test came out in our favor to say that, yeah,
    0:25:25 this is a good activity to invest in and spend money on from the brand’s perspective.
    0:25:28 So yeah, there’s a couple of ways to sort of not take no,
    0:25:31 an immediate no as the answer and instead continue the conversation
    0:25:34 and see test into it or persuade the brand
    0:25:37 that this is a worthwhile use of their time and effort.
    0:25:42 Yeah, one thing that is fascinating to me in the world of paid ads
    0:25:47 is a lot of these bigger companies will have pretty strict monthly budgets.
    0:25:52 Like, oh, maybe we’re only allocated 100 grand a month for Google Span
    0:25:55 and we blow through it by the 25th of the month.
    0:26:00 And so those last five or six days are like wide open for the affiliates.
    0:26:02 And it’s like, if you were buying profitable traffic,
    0:26:05 what difference does it make if you spend 100 or 115?
    0:26:08 If your cost per acquisition was fine at 100.
    0:26:09 It just didn’t make any sense.
    0:26:12 But it’s like the bureaucracy of some of these bigger companies
    0:26:16 where smaller publishers can be more nimble, more thoughtful,
    0:26:17 and especially at the end of the month,
    0:26:20 maybe the auctions become less competitive, you get cheaper clicks.
    0:26:21 Have you ever seen anything like that happen?
    0:26:24 The bureaucracy can both work for you and against you, right?
    0:26:26 There’s many cases where you convince somebody internally
    0:26:30 that this is a great idea and they’re really gung-ho, but you can’t get it.
    0:26:35 Approved by the brand safety team or the PR team or somebody else,
    0:26:38 some other stakeholder who doesn’t see this as a good use of funds.
    0:26:40 So the bureaucracy can work against you.
    0:26:42 And in some cases, yeah, there are opportunities.
    0:26:44 There’s some seasonality is what I’d call it,
    0:26:49 where there can be a feasting opportunity, you know, less advertisers in the auction,
    0:26:52 more activity on the conversion side and earnings go way up,
    0:26:57 as well as sort of winters where it’s like, wow, everybody is advertising
    0:27:00 at a certain time of year, usually Black Friday, Cyber Monday,
    0:27:03 kind of end of the year is like the peak of advertising,
    0:27:06 at least in my health and wellness niche.
    0:27:10 In those cases, sometimes the cost of ads gets prohibitive for arbitrage.
    0:27:12 It’s too expensive.
    0:27:14 And there’s no matter how much you’re making on the back end,
    0:27:15 you’re not going to be able to cover your costs.
    0:27:17 So there’s highs and lows to this as well.
    0:27:20 Yeah, talk to me about the math side of it.
    0:27:24 Like the expected earnings minus the cost per click.
    0:27:27 What’s a typical cost per click?
    0:27:28 Like what’s a page you worth?
    0:27:31 Is there a target ROI, obviously, the higher the better?
    0:27:34 Like what are you looking at on the dollars and cents side of it?
    0:27:35 It really is niche specific.
    0:27:39 So in some cases, we sort of talked about it in the very early stage.
    0:27:41 Like maybe there’s a niche where the traffic is so cheap,
    0:27:44 it’s so uncompetitive that you could actually arbitrage
    0:27:46 through a display ad or something like that.
    0:27:47 That may be possible, I don’t know.
    0:27:53 In my particular case, essentially the formula you want to work on
    0:27:56 or make work is expected earnings per click.
    0:27:59 And that has to match the CPC or it has to be higher
    0:28:02 than the cost per click to your landing page.
    0:28:06 And there’s one extra step in your calculation for each of those sides.
    0:28:10 So your expected earnings per click would be whatever your
    0:28:12 click-through rate on the ad is times the click-through rate
    0:28:15 from your landing page to a partner times the conversion rate
    0:28:18 with that partner times the commission you get.
    0:28:22 So in a normal flow, you have to maybe subtract one of those
    0:28:24 conversion rates because the conversion is happening on your site.
    0:28:26 But if it’s happening on a third party site,
    0:28:28 you have to add in the click-through rate to the third party site.
    0:28:31 That’s an extra bit of math that a lot of people miss.
    0:28:33 But OK. Yeah.
    0:28:36 So if I have the top 10 hair loss products,
    0:28:41 maybe two thirds of the people are going to click on option number one
    0:28:44 and something like that and say, OK, the expected earnings per click
    0:28:46 for that is two dollars and fifty cents or something.
    0:28:48 Yeah, yeah, exactly.
    0:28:50 So in my case, just to make the math a little bit more firm,
    0:28:54 our average CPC is actually quite high because we’re in a health and
    0:28:57 wellness, your money, your life category, with a ton of competition.
    0:29:02 An average click is anywhere from say three to six dollars, right?
    0:29:04 It’s the range can do a lot.
    0:29:06 So you better be pretty certain that for that visitor,
    0:29:09 they’re going to click through and a high rate click through again
    0:29:11 and then at a high rate convert and that the commission is there.
    0:29:13 And ultimately, by the thing, wow.
    0:29:16 Yeah. So it can work in really competitive arenas as well.
    0:29:18 You don’t have to think about this as just being like,
    0:29:20 if there’s competition, this is kaput.
    0:29:21 That’s fascinating.
    0:29:23 I was buying shoe clicks for like 25 cents.
    0:29:26 And so it’s like, oh, three dollars a click.
    0:29:29 Like, oh, I really got to have that landing page dialed in for sure.
    0:29:29 Yeah, for sure.
    0:29:32 You want to make sure that you have high confidence before you spend your first
    0:29:35 dollar and that you’re then your landing page is pretty dialed in.
    0:29:38 Luckily, there’s lots of good examples to copy from.
    0:29:41 But one other thought I had is because you were kind of describing
    0:29:44 how you would do the math, what is your expected to click through?
    0:29:46 What is your expected earning rates for this partner?
    0:29:48 And then this partner and then this partner, that is true.
    0:29:52 That’s ultimately like the ultimate formula that you’re trying to optimize for.
    0:29:54 But what I like to do to keep it really simple
    0:29:58 is to try and make the math work out just for that number one spot.
    0:30:01 If you can break even with or you can make the math work out
    0:30:04 such that you’re breaking even just with that first partner,
    0:30:06 that position in who’s in number one.
    0:30:10 That means anybody who clicks on position two through five or two through 10
    0:30:13 and generates some commission is just profit.
    0:30:14 It’s just gravy.
    0:30:15 So if you have it, if the math working out,
    0:30:19 it’s more conservative to model it out by a break even point
    0:30:23 with just that first partner or that position one partner
    0:30:25 and everything else is gravy. Yeah. OK, OK.
    0:30:30 And then is there a target like I’m going to trade a dollar for two dollars
    0:30:33 or trade a dollar for a buck fifty like where you feel like to play and like,
    0:30:35 OK, if I’m at this number, I’m really going to scale up that campaign
    0:30:39 to the extent that Google will take my money there or there’s search volume there
    0:30:43 versus like I want to tweak some things and optimize it
    0:30:47 because there’s it becomes a cash flow challenge, perhaps
    0:30:50 because you got to pay Google now or they’re going to swipe your card now
    0:30:53 for the ads and you’re like, well, am I going to get paid from that affiliate
    0:30:57 for 36 days, like depends on their different payout terms.
    0:31:01 In the beginning, I just started as like, can I break even or can I make 10 percent profit?
    0:31:04 Like, I don’t really know what the profit margin is.
    0:31:08 In our case, it became evergreen at kind of 25, 30 percent.
    0:31:11 And at different times of year, you could get up to like almost 100 percent.
    0:31:15 So basically, like for every dollar you’re putting in, you’re getting two dollars out
    0:31:17 or like really, really incredible.
    0:31:21 Yeah. And so at that point, you’re like, I want to step on the gas as much as possible.
    0:31:23 But there’s a law of diminishing marginal returns, obviously.
    0:31:27 So the more money you spend in advertising inevitably, at some point,
    0:31:31 the less efficient it gets that incremental spend for the next dollar.
    0:31:33 It’s not going to go as far as like, say, the first dollar went.
    0:31:36 But it’s hard to know where the ceiling is.
    0:31:38 In some cases, there’s not a lot of search volume.
    0:31:40 And so you know exactly where the ceiling is.
    0:31:43 There’s only so many queries, only so many lucrative queries.
    0:31:46 And you’re going to cap out on those pretty quickly.
    0:31:50 But in the case of like best hair loss product or something,
    0:31:53 I mean, there’s like practically infinite number of queries.
    0:31:58 And so the question is, is there a certain profit margin where I maximize my profit?
    0:32:03 If the profit margin held firm, then I would want to spend as much as possible
    0:32:05 to maximize that overall profit.
    0:32:08 But knowing that the profit margin decreases as you spend.
    0:32:10 So there’s kind of like this efficiency point.
    0:32:16 Yeah, kind of curve, you know, go back to like economics 101 in college or something.
    0:32:20 There’s maybe some math around that, but there’s a lot of variables as well.
    0:32:25 The cost of ads, the products offered and the brand awareness of each of those products
    0:32:26 and the price points of each of those products.
    0:32:28 And those are all changing throughout the year, right?
    0:32:31 I mean, so my point is, is like, there’s a lot of variables there.
    0:32:33 It’s hard to know.
    0:32:36 Yeah. I mean, meanwhile, like my chasing preferred,
    0:32:40 one of these cards is like triple points on ad spend up to a certain limit every year.
    0:32:42 It’s like, oh, flying for free, baby.
    0:32:45 If I can spend money profitably, that’s amazing.
    0:32:45 Yeah, exactly.
    0:32:48 And so going back to the cash flow discussion really fast.
    0:32:52 So typically, you know, the affiliate terms so that you get paid out,
    0:32:55 30 days would be pretty typical, but often it’ll extend into 60.
    0:32:58 The thing about a credit card is the card is charged today,
    0:33:00 but you’re not expected to pay it for about 30 days.
    0:33:04 So in some ways, without paying a fee or without paying interest, right?
    0:33:06 Those things kind of line up.
    0:33:11 It is true that you need a little bit of working capital to start this process, right?
    0:33:15 You have to be able to risk or wager a few thousand dollars in the beginning.
    0:33:16 You might lose it all, right?
    0:33:17 That’s sort of like gambling.
    0:33:20 But if you can figure it out, if you’re willing to iterate a bit
    0:33:25 and then you figure something out, the gold at the end of the rainbow is like, wow,
    0:33:27 this thing is scalable and it’s evergreen.
    0:33:30 And for every dollar I put in, I get one and a half dollars or two dollars back.
    0:33:33 And I’m not relying on organic algorithm.
    0:33:35 Yeah, you’re just breathing a little easier.
    0:33:38 Every time there’s an algorithm update, you’re not freaking out,
    0:33:40 hitting refresh on the reports.
    0:33:41 Like, did I get hammered on this one? Yeah.
    0:33:45 Yeah, there is a cash flow crunch or like a cash flow thing to manage here.
    0:33:48 But it’s not as challenging as e-commerce, for instance,
    0:33:50 where you have to sort of front load all of your inventory spend
    0:33:53 and hope that somebody buys it over the next 12 months.
    0:33:54 Sure. Yeah.
    0:33:57 There are more capital intensive businesses to be sure.
    0:34:02 More with Alex in just a moment, including possibly the most amazing affiliate strategy.
    0:34:04 I’d never heard of before right after this.
    0:34:09 One thing that you mentioned was going a little bit higher in the funnel,
    0:34:13 especially for the brands that are somewhat restricted on trademark bidding.
    0:34:18 And it could be best hair loss products or even just hair loss or erectile dysfunction.
    0:34:21 Like somebody just kind of in their beginning research phases
    0:34:24 or like they may or may not be ready to buy.
    0:34:27 I got to hope that the cost per clicks are lower for that kind of stuff
    0:34:30 because I imagine the conversion rates would be lower too.
    0:34:33 Yeah. Is it even worthwhile to play in that space?
    0:34:34 Because it’s like very early research phase.
    0:34:37 Yeah. I mean, it just depends on how things are cookieed
    0:34:41 and how people are shopping for a particular product in a particular niche.
    0:34:45 I won’t say it’s impossible or it’ll never work to hire up the funnel you go.
    0:34:48 But I do think that you want to start as low in the funnel as possible.
    0:34:52 And you want to understand these keywords have already been working for me,
    0:34:53 right, from an organic perspective.
    0:34:55 So that’s where you start.
    0:34:59 You don’t start like, let me go really high up and then middle and then bottom and see what works.
    0:35:02 I don’t know. Start with what you know works and then expand from there.
    0:35:06 And that will deep risk your ad spend outlay.
    0:35:11 Yeah. Because for me, it was shoes would have been horribly unprofitable.
    0:35:13 Women’s shoes would have been horribly unprofitable.
    0:35:20 Women’s running shoes, best women’s running shoes, all the way down to like new balance model XYZ.
    0:35:22 Like it would have to be super, super specific for it to work.
    0:35:24 That makes a lot of sense.
    0:35:25 Like start at the bottom of the funnel.
    0:35:28 Start with what you know is going to convert high buyer intent type of stuff
    0:35:33 and then see if you can crawl your way up and to the point about affiliate cookies.
    0:35:35 Like, is it going to be a three month cookie?
    0:35:39 If somebody clicks on your link and ultimately converts, like, OK, that’s cool.
    0:35:40 You’re still going to get credit for that.
    0:35:44 But again, you got to pay for that click up front, maybe a while before you see
    0:35:46 the eventual conversion down the road.
    0:35:51 The other thing I want to ask about is Google is one ads platform.
    0:35:55 High search intent target the exact keywords that you’re looking for.
    0:35:59 You play around with Facebook ads at all for Fin versus Fin as well.
    0:36:00 Just a little bit.
    0:36:04 So it’s harder to make work on Facebook for a couple reasons.
    0:36:05 One is the creative.
    0:36:09 It’s actually easy now to create visual creatives with Generative AI
    0:36:11 and the Canva and all these tools, right?
    0:36:14 But historically, it’s been more challenging, at least for someone like me,
    0:36:18 who’s not a designer or very design inclined, a text ad in Google is easier
    0:36:21 to manage than a Facebook ad, basically, ad campaign.
    0:36:23 So that’s why I always skewed there.
    0:36:26 And also, there’s generally higher intent on Google or search platforms.
    0:36:30 Somebody is actively typing something in the bar to actively find an answer
    0:36:33 or a product on Facebook or Instagram or TikTok.
    0:36:37 They are going there to be entertained and to zone out and avoid procrastinating a bit.
    0:36:39 They can be convinced to take action.
    0:36:44 Don’t get me wrong, people make huge brands and lots of sales on these social platforms.
    0:36:46 But it’s lower intent.
    0:36:47 There’s no question.
    0:36:49 And I would say start with search.
    0:36:50 That’s pretty smart.
    0:36:54 We did end up moving over to the metaproperties and dabbling a bit there.
    0:36:58 The motion that we really saw a lot of success with is called social white listing.
    0:37:03 So for anyone who’s not familiar, the idea is that you’re able to give
    0:37:07 your brand partners access to advertise using your handles.
    0:37:11 So your Facebook page or your Instagram account and serve ads
    0:37:15 that look like they’re coming from you, but they’re actually managed
    0:37:19 and the ad spend and the targeting and the creative is all managed by the brand.
    0:37:20 The advertiser itself.
    0:37:23 Dang, that sounds amazing.
    0:37:26 If somebody else is going to run ads through your affiliate link,
    0:37:27 where’s the lose in that?
    0:37:28 Where could he go wrong?
    0:37:29 Exactly. Yeah.
    0:37:31 And you know, a lot of people, if you’re on social media,
    0:37:35 you’ve likely seen these ads and they can come from big influencers,
    0:37:37 but they can also come from small publishers like Vin versus Finn.
    0:37:42 It’s a similar concept to what we were talking about before in the paid search space
    0:37:46 where in a versus query, for instance, the user will find it more credible
    0:37:51 to read an answer from a credible third party than they will from the brand itself.
    0:37:55 And so it’s leveraging this third party, this I should say,
    0:37:57 that’s the same motion just on Facebook.
    0:38:01 But the difference is that you don’t have to run the ads for the brand.
    0:38:04 The brand can run their own ads because they’re doing that anyway.
    0:38:07 Every single brand out there is running Facebook or meta ads.
    0:38:11 You give them access and then they select a new handle to run the ads from.
    0:38:15 Instead of running ads from their own handle, they’re running it from your affiliate handle.
    0:38:18 And yeah, it’s all paid traffic going to your site.
    0:38:22 And so it’s diversifying your overall traffic source mix,
    0:38:24 as well as your revenue mix, and it’s very hands off.
    0:38:25 How do I sign up for this?
    0:38:28 Like, what’s the conversation look like with Rayon XYZ to say,
    0:38:30 have I got a deal for you?
    0:38:33 You’re going to run paid ads through my affiliate channel.
    0:38:36 And the users are going to find it more credible.
    0:38:37 How do I even wrote that subject? It sounds awesome.
    0:38:38 It sounds crazy, right?
    0:38:40 Like, it sounds like I just made it up.
    0:38:42 But actually, this has been going on again.
    0:38:43 I wasn’t the first person to pioneer this.
    0:38:45 This I just noticed it happening.
    0:38:47 And then I started to ask the brands if they’re interested in it.
    0:38:48 And you’d be shocked.
    0:38:51 I mean, depending on how fast that brand is looking to grow,
    0:38:55 depending on how much they’re spending on meta today, which probably is a lot.
    0:38:56 You’d be surprised.
    0:38:58 OK, they are kind of started.
    0:38:59 So maybe that’s a starting point.
    0:39:01 Look for the brands that are already spending money to the extent
    0:39:04 that you could see them in your feed, or you could see there’s probably
    0:39:07 estimator tools to see what they’re spending or what their ads look like.
    0:39:09 Yeah, the Facebook ad library, it’s a free tool.
    0:39:11 You just Google it, Facebook ad library.
    0:39:13 You type in the geography that you’re interested in.
    0:39:16 And the brand that you’re interested in it will show you all the ads
    0:39:18 that they’re running currently in for the last few months.
    0:39:21 So you can see both like, OK, are they running it from their own account?
    0:39:23 Are they running it from third party handles?
    0:39:27 You can also just see, are they really active on Facebook or meta in general?
    0:39:31 I think it’s fair to assume that if a brand is big, if a brand is growing,
    0:39:32 they are very active on meta.
    0:39:35 It’s basically table stakes at this point for any growth team.
    0:39:38 So I think it’s fair to say, like, hey, you’re already running
    0:39:40 meta ads, have you tried social white listing?
    0:39:43 Depending on their experience, they may be very well versed in it.
    0:39:44 They may not understand it.
    0:39:46 You explain to them how it works.
    0:39:49 And again, you sort of position it as a test while we don’t know that it works.
    0:39:53 And this would be reaching out to you or like starting with your affiliate manager?
    0:39:54 Yes, exactly.
    0:39:56 Whomever is met, your point of contact at the brand.
    0:40:00 Just kind of to go back to the Google side of things that I wanted to mention.
    0:40:02 There’s another way, another part of this, because we’re talking about how
    0:40:07 to persuade partners and brands to get on board with this and then how to sort
    0:40:08 of de-risk your initial spend.
    0:40:12 One of the interesting things that I found, especially with high growth partners,
    0:40:15 so brands that are really looking to grow fast and willing to experiment.
    0:40:16 That’s a lot of brands these days.
    0:40:20 It’s not like a unique, a fairly unique thing is that you can say, hey,
    0:40:25 I would like to find this win-win situation where I’m going to drive you
    0:40:28 a bunch of conversions on Google or Facebook.
    0:40:33 But in order to potentially find this evergreen fountain of revenue
    0:40:38 and traffic and conversions, I need to test with some ad spend.
    0:40:42 And so would you be willing to, I don’t know, spend $2,000, $3,000 on ads
    0:40:44 to fund this experiment and see if it works.
    0:40:48 And $2,000 or $3,000 sounds like a lot to an individual side hustler
    0:40:50 or to somebody running a small business.
    0:40:56 But to a brand, $2,000 or $3,000 is what they paid some small influencer
    0:40:58 to create a post one time.
    0:40:59 It’s like a rounding error in many cases.
    0:41:05 OK, so to pause, that would be if you were starting out your own ad campaign,
    0:41:09 but kind of reaching out like, look, I want to find this long term evergreen
    0:41:11 campaign, but it’s going to take a little bit of budget.
    0:41:13 Would you help me with the startup costs?
    0:41:16 Would you help me ramp this up without hearing that correctly?
    0:41:16 Yeah, yeah.
    0:41:19 So you can think about it for both platforms.
    0:41:23 So in the case of Google, you as the affiliate will have to outlay the cash first.
    0:41:27 And so in order to de-risk it further, you can ask the brand,
    0:41:30 hey, would you be willing to sort of reimburse me for that ad spend?
    0:41:32 And then we’ll learn together, basically.
    0:41:35 But the prize at the end of the rainbow, as I mentioned,
    0:41:39 is like we find this evergreen, scalable, mutually beneficial channel.
    0:41:41 But on the Facebook side, it’s similar.
    0:41:44 You can if there’s any pushback to that for social why listing, you can just say,
    0:41:47 well, how about you just start with a very small spend on your end?
    0:41:49 Just to test it, just to see if it works.
    0:41:50 Don’t go crazy.
    0:41:51 We’re not asking to get married.
    0:41:55 We’re asking for the first date, you know, let’s just see if this works.
    0:41:58 I mean, I think it works for a lot of your competitors.
    0:42:01 Here are a bunch of screenshots of your competitors running similar
    0:42:03 campaigns for months and months and months.
    0:42:05 Do you think that they’re running them unprofitably for a bunch of months?
    0:42:06 I doubt it.
    0:42:07 Yeah, gosh, I never know.
    0:42:10 Like I’m going to be paying much closer attention to the ads that I see.
    0:42:12 If you’re like, oh, is this a social whitelist ad?
    0:42:15 I had no idea this was a thing.
    0:42:16 This is fascinating.
    0:42:18 Yeah. Once you know about it, you don’t stop seeing it.
    0:42:20 It’s everywhere.
    0:42:23 Those disclosures as well, like you should say that it’s a partnership
    0:42:27 and you should say that it’s you want to be up front with people on the ad itself.
    0:42:30 But there’s a lot of blindness to that on social media as well.
    0:42:33 So that doesn’t necessarily impact the conversion rates on the social
    0:42:34 whitelisting side.
    0:42:37 You’ll it’s really one of the surprising things I learned is just how nasty
    0:42:40 the comments are on Facebook or any social platform for that matter.
    0:42:42 So you run these ads, right?
    0:42:46 And they’re like, you give a brand permission to run ads using your social
    0:42:48 handle and they start running these ads.
    0:42:52 And if you don’t have somebody on their side managing the comments,
    0:42:54 it doesn’t matter what the ad is.
    0:42:58 It can be the most innocuous thing ever, but people will get vicious
    0:43:01 in the comments, just absolutely vicious.
    0:43:03 And so if you don’t have somebody either on your side
    0:43:06 or usually it’s on the brand side managing those comments
    0:43:09 and responding to the angry people and boosting the happy people,
    0:43:13 you will get this polarized like, wow, that thing is so fake
    0:43:15 and it’s never going to work for anyone.
    0:43:18 And oh, my gosh, this like helped me become the best version of myself.
    0:43:20 Kind of dichotomy.
    0:43:22 It’s actually pretty hilarious.
    0:43:27 Interesting. Now, this was years ago, but I heard, you know, rather than
    0:43:30 delete the hater comments, rather than delete the negative comments,
    0:43:34 kind of engage, like send that engagement signal back to Facebook that, oh, man,
    0:43:36 people are really into this ad.
    0:43:40 Maybe they were not reading sentiment at that point where you are on that.
    0:43:43 For the most part, if it’s not being managed, so if I see a brand doing nothing,
    0:43:46 then I’ll ping them and be like, hey, we need to figure something out.
    0:43:48 Like this can’t go unattended.
    0:43:51 But I think the best strategy is kind of what you’re saying.
    0:43:54 You want to respond and show that you’re helpful, be like, oh, you know,
    0:43:58 I really respect that opinion, but also respectfully disagree.
    0:43:59 Just a small pushback.
    0:44:02 But for the most part, you’re saying I respect.
    0:44:04 You’re not like looking to brawl on a Facebook comment.
    0:44:09 You’re just looking to acknowledge that you’re there and that person has been heard, basically.
    0:44:12 All right. Yeah, I love reading the comments on different ads
    0:44:16 because it is exactly how you describe some people say, hey, this changed my life.
    0:44:18 And other people like, this is 100 percent a scam.
    0:44:20 Like, well, the truth is probably somewhere in the middle.
    0:44:22 Exactly. Yeah. Yeah.
    0:44:24 So this is an interesting phenomenon there.
    0:44:27 One of the common pitfalls, I would say, for social whitelisting, but
    0:44:31 overall, just to summarize, social whitelisting is an extremely easy thing to turn on.
    0:44:33 It’s a few clicks.
    0:44:35 It’s persuading a partner that they want to try it.
    0:44:37 And then it is just a few clicks.
    0:44:40 And then the ball is in your partner’s court to drive paid traffic to your site.
    0:44:41 It’s amazing.
    0:44:45 On the paid search side, there’s quite a bit of setup.
    0:44:49 There’s a lot of nuance to both getting it off the ground as well as
    0:44:52 getting it to scale up and then getting it to stay consistently profitable.
    0:44:57 So it’s harder, but I would also say, in my mind, it’s easier than
    0:44:59 building a large email list in many cases.
    0:45:03 So it just depends kind of what you’re good at, what your orientation is,
    0:45:06 where you want to spend your time and potentially risk your dollars as well.
    0:45:13 Yeah. The analytical brain side of me really likes it from the standpoint of
    0:45:19 shortcutting the path to traffic to, okay, if I put a dollar in, can I get a buck fifty out?
    0:45:24 And then tweaking and optimizing all aspects of the campaign and the landing page,
    0:45:26 like that sounds really fun.
    0:45:29 And then kind of the negotiation side of it, like trying to develop these win-win
    0:45:32 partnerships, I think it makes a lot of sense.
    0:45:36 Any other common mistakes or pitfalls or even expensive mistakes that
    0:45:38 you ended up making along the way?
    0:45:40 I tried to de-risk things as much as possible.
    0:45:45 So I don’t have any stories of just like, wow, I turned this thing on,
    0:45:47 and I jacked up the spend, and I stopped watching it.
    0:45:49 And then 10 days later, I lost my shirt.
    0:45:53 So luckily, I don’t have any experiences of that.
    0:45:57 I’ve definitely had partners be upset about the keywords that we’re bidding on,
    0:46:03 and basically told us to change our course, either to stop or to, in most cases,
    0:46:06 they just say, hey, please stop bidding on this keyword.
    0:46:10 And in some cases, they would say, we agreed, these are in our terms of service,
    0:46:13 and it’ll be very kind of threatening the language there.
    0:46:15 But in every case, I’ve been able to say, I’m really sorry,
    0:46:17 like, ask for forgiveness.
    0:46:18 It’s immediately paused.
    0:46:21 Let’s figure out a path forward that works for both sides.
    0:46:25 And a lot of cases, it can be unintentional, because Google to their credit
    0:46:29 is trying to like broad match your search terms in a lot of cases.
    0:46:33 And unless you specifically add that brand term as a negative keyword,
    0:46:36 you might still show up, even if you weren’t intentionally trying to bid on it.
    0:46:37 Totally true.
    0:46:38 Yeah, exactly.
    0:46:40 They’re constantly broadening your match types.
    0:46:42 Depending on how much control you give them, they will, like we said,
    0:46:46 before eat away all the margin and spend all your dollars unprofitably.
    0:46:51 So I’m curious, just going back to your dabbling in this category.
    0:46:54 It was your first side hustle or one of your early hustles.
    0:46:58 Why did you stop or what killed that business for you?
    0:47:01 It sounded like you had some success early on, and maybe you found bigger
    0:47:03 and better things to do, just kind of curious.
    0:47:08 Yeah, it was over the course of nine years, the margin in between that cost of traffic
    0:47:11 and what that traffic was worth in terms of the affiliate conversion,
    0:47:14 like that margin got narrower and narrower and narrower,
    0:47:17 and it became kind of a challenging place to play.
    0:47:24 And it was a mistake of mine and not learning SEO earlier or not reinvesting
    0:47:28 some of those earlier profits into diversifying traffic sources.
    0:47:31 Like you said, I want to de-risk this as much as I can,
    0:47:33 but I was still very much reliant on that one traffic source,
    0:47:35 and it became less profitable over time.
    0:47:36 Yeah, it makes sense.
    0:47:37 You had the reverse course, right?
    0:47:40 You were like, “I want to de-risk away from paid media.”
    0:47:44 I was like, “I want to diversify into paid media.”
    0:47:45 Yeah, because it depends where you start.
    0:47:46 That makes sense.
    0:47:52 Oh, good. Well, that’s a place to transition to paidmediaaffiliates.com.
    0:47:54 You got the big payday from selling the site,
    0:47:57 and you say, “Hey, the work is not over yet.”
    0:48:00 Now you’re helping other people get started and grow with this strategy,
    0:48:02 paidmediaaffiliates.com.
    0:48:05 What else has got you excited these days, or what’s going on over there?
    0:48:09 Basically, as I figure out my next project to work on,
    0:48:14 I thought this is actually a really unique time for this skill set,
    0:48:18 given what’s going on in the SEO world and how challenging it’s been lately.
    0:48:19 And the more I talk to people like me,
    0:48:23 both individual site owners or just affiliates in general,
    0:48:25 at every level, both people are just starting,
    0:48:27 as well as people who have been in the game for decades.
    0:48:28 You and I were talking about this,
    0:48:33 how SEO is just a challenging time for people trying to build SEO traffic at the moment.
    0:48:35 This is an interesting category because it works.
    0:48:37 It’s just as ever green.
    0:48:39 I have lived that experience,
    0:48:43 but it seems to be like very few people are thinking about arbitraging paid media
    0:48:46 and figuring out how to diversify their business with this channel.
    0:48:52 Yeah, it just would be interesting to create an online course around it
    0:48:57 and help other people potentially see the light on other avenues
    0:48:59 to take their business that are maybe a little bit less obvious
    0:49:03 than grow your newsletter or build a social following.
    0:49:05 So that was the impetus there.
    0:49:07 The course is launching soon.
    0:49:09 It’s on paidmediaffiliates.com.
    0:49:12 And if you’re interested in learning more about this,
    0:49:16 even just chatting to me about if this could work for your niche,
    0:49:18 feel free to sign up there and we’ll be in touch.
    0:49:19 Very good.
    0:49:22 We’ll link that up, paidmediaaffiliates.com.
    0:49:23 You can check Alex out over there.
    0:49:26 Well, let’s wrap this thing up with your number one tip
    0:49:29 for side hustle nation 2024 edition.
    0:49:31 De-risk as much as possible.
    0:49:34 So whether you have something that’s working well,
    0:49:36 don’t think that that will work well forever.
    0:49:38 And whether you’re thinking about starting something from scratch,
    0:49:43 I think just think about how do I de-risk that first step as much as possible.
    0:49:46 So my tips for getting brand partners on board
    0:49:49 before you spend your first dollar,
    0:49:51 getting them to even maybe fund the spend.
    0:49:55 It’s sort of a specific piece of advice.
    0:49:58 But the general piece of advice is de-risk
    0:50:01 and think about how to kind of stack the deck in your favor
    0:50:03 before you spend a lot of time or money.
    0:50:07 It’s so true and it’s kind of one of the common threads of the show.
    0:50:10 Keep your risks low, keep your goals high and get after it.
    0:50:14 2019 tip we had was be extremely persistent,
    0:50:16 something I think that has obviously paid off.
    0:50:19 And then we had a little, where are they now episode in 2020?
    0:50:22 We talked about figuring out the first model
    0:50:24 and then the challenge becomes thinking outside the box,
    0:50:28 which I think is a great illustration of what we’ve been talking about today.
    0:50:29 Hey, we found something that worked.
    0:50:31 We found content that converted.
    0:50:33 How do we get more eyeballs to it,
    0:50:36 even if we have to pay for those and do that in a de-risked way?
    0:50:39 So again, appreciate you joining me.
    0:50:40 Some of the notes that I wrote down,
    0:50:41 some of the soundbites that I wrote down,
    0:50:43 don’t be a flamingo standing on one leg.
    0:50:44 It’s fragile, right?
    0:50:46 You don’t want to get blown over by the wind.
    0:50:49 See if you can diversify your business that way.
    0:50:51 And we talked about in the wake of Google updates,
    0:50:55 you’re building a larger brand and maybe that’s through social media.
    0:50:56 Maybe that’s through an email list.
    0:50:57 Maybe that’s through video.
    0:51:00 Maybe it’s through paid traffic in this case.
    0:51:02 I like the call to copy what’s working.
    0:51:04 Look, if there are big publishers in your space,
    0:51:07 if they are small publishers in your space who are spending money on ads,
    0:51:09 if they’ve been doing it for any length of time,
    0:51:11 they’re probably not losing money, right?
    0:51:12 So copy what’s working.
    0:51:13 You can do that on Google.
    0:51:14 You can do that on Facebook.
    0:51:15 What does their landing page look like?
    0:51:17 What does their ad copy look like?
    0:51:19 Copy what’s working in a lot of cases.
    0:51:21 You probably don’t have to reinvent the wheel.
    0:51:22 And then take away number three.
    0:51:25 A lot of it depends on finding the right partners
    0:51:27 where the math is going to work out from an affiliate standpoint
    0:51:30 where they’re investing in growth.
    0:51:32 Maybe they have raised some money
    0:51:34 and they’re spending money to acquire customers.
    0:51:37 Like, hey, how can you get some of that flowing to you
    0:51:40 to help them achieve their goals through social whitelisting,
    0:51:43 through having them front load the experiment?
    0:51:45 Maybe even it’s just paying you extra affiliate commission.
    0:51:47 Hey, if I can drive more volume, would you increase my rates?
    0:51:50 Lots of different levers you might be able to pull
    0:51:51 on finding the right partners there.
    0:51:54 But this is Alex’s third appearance on the show.
    0:51:56 If you want to get more of the backstory,
    0:51:59 I encourage you to check out the previous two episodes.
    0:52:02 His co-founder, Healy, was on those as well.
    0:52:08 Those are episodes 367 and 410 in your podcast feed.
    0:52:10 367 and 410.
    0:52:11 Go find those.
    0:52:12 Give them a listen.
    0:52:15 If you’re new to the show or if you’ve been listening
    0:52:16 for a long time, don’t matter.
    0:52:19 You can go build yourself a personalized playlist
    0:52:22 of the most relevant episodes for you.
    0:52:24 All you got to do is go to hustle.show,
    0:52:26 answer a few short multiple choice questions,
    0:52:29 and the little quiz is going to spit out this cool curated
    0:52:33 playlist recommendation based on the answers that you gave.
    0:52:35 Again, hustle.show for that.
    0:52:38 Big thanks to Alex for sharing his insight once again.
    0:52:41 Thanks to our sponsors for helping make this content free
    0:52:41 for everyone.
    0:52:44 You can hit up sidehustlenation.com/deals
    0:52:47 for all the latest offers from our sponsors in one place.
    0:52:50 And thanks for supporting the advertisers that support the show.
    0:52:51 It really does make a difference.
    0:52:53 That is it for me.
    0:52:55 Thank you so much for tuning in.
    0:52:56 If you’re finding value in the show,
    0:52:58 the greatest compliment is to share it with a friend.
    0:53:00 So fire off that text message.
    0:53:03 Hey, I think you got to check this out until next time.
    0:53:04 Let’s go out there and make something happen.
    0:53:08 And I’ll catch you in the next edition of the side hustle show.
    0:53:08 Hustle on.
    0:53:13 As a side hustle show listener, I know you’re driven.
    0:53:15 Otherwise, you wouldn’t be here.
    0:53:18 But I also know you can end up hustling and driving yourself
    0:53:21 into exhaustion, overwhelm, and even burnout
    0:53:24 if you don’t stay anchored to why you’re doing it.
    0:53:26 That’s why I want to recommend another podcast
    0:53:29 that will massively support your side hustle.
    0:53:32 It’s called What Drives You with host Kevin Miller.
    0:53:33 Kevin’s a former pro athlete.
    0:53:37 He’s a lifelong entrepreneur who started 19 different businesses.
    0:53:41 He’s a father of nine kids, an author, and a mountain adventurer as well.
    0:53:44 He knows both the glory and the dark side of drive.
    0:53:47 And has devoted his life to helping people who want to drive
    0:53:51 further, faster, but also enjoy the ride every single day.
    0:53:53 He brings on today’s most influential people
    0:53:56 in personal and business development to see what drives them
    0:54:00 and get their guidance on the key ingredients that power our own drive.
    0:54:02 If you want to fully harness your drive
    0:54:04 and find peace and fulfillment in the process,
    0:54:07 go find What Drives You with Kevin Miller,
    0:54:09 wherever you listen to podcasts.

    It’s 2019, and we hear from a couple of guys on the Side Hustle Show about their part-time website.

    It’s about a year old, and they’re writing these in-depth product reviews and comparison posts, monetizing with affiliate partnerships, and doing around $20k a month. Fantastic results for a fairly new site.

    That site was finvsfin.com, and it recently sold just a few months ago for a 7-figure sum.

    Co-founder Alex Goldberg is here to catch us up on what’s working today in a volatile SEO landscape and how website owners can still position themselves for success while relying less and less on organic traffic.

    Tune in to Episode 617 of the Side Hustle Show to learn:

    • the traffic source that saved Fin vs Fin during SEO volatility
    • how to de-risk your business from organic traffic dependence
    • the basics of ads arbitrage for your niche
    • how to secure profitable partnerships
    • for the latest about Alex’s new project, check out Paid Media Affiliates.com

    Full Show Notes: Scaling to a 7-Figure Sale: Affiliate Marketing Beyond SEO

    New to the Show? Get your personalized money-making playlist here!

    Sponsors:

    Shopify — Sign up for a $1 per month trial!

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  • Hiring Your First Virtual Assistant: When, Where, and How to Do it Right (Greatest Hits)

    We all have a limit to our capacity. For some entrepreneurs and small business owners, that’s a tough pill to swallow.

    But when you’re up against that ceiling you’ve got two options. You can:

    1. Settle in.
    2. Get help.

    This episode is about growing your team in such a way that you have some breathing room in your schedule and in your mental bandwidth to do the work that’s required of a business owner.

    Even though I’ve been hiring virtual help in my businesses since 2005, I’ve still got a lot to learn! This is something that’s been on my mind this year as I think about where I want my current operations to go and who can help get me there.

    To help dive into this topic, I’m excited to welcome John Jonas and Nate Hirsch to the show.

    Between them, they’ve got more than 60 virtual team members and have been practicing remote management for more than a decade.

    They both run platforms to help you make your first virtual hire as well:

    • John heads up OnlineJobs.ph, the largest remote job board and resume database for workers in the Philippines.
    • Nate created FreeeUp.com, a curated freelance marketplace for workers all around the world. He also founded Ecombalance.com, a monthly bookkeeping service for Ecommerce Sellers/agencies, and OutsourceSchool.com where he teaches his hiring processes.

    Tune in to hear John and Nate’s take on when it’s time to hire, how to find the best talent for your budget, and some common mistakes to avoid.

    Full Show Notes: Hiring Your First Virtual Assistant: When, Where, and How to Do it Right

    New to the Show? Get your personalized money-making playlist here!

    Sponsors:

    Shopify — Sign up for a $1 per month trial!

    Indeed – Start hiring NOW with a $75 sponsored job credit to upgrade your job post!

    This is Small Business Podcast – Brought to you by Amazon, explore the stories of small business owners as they navigate their path to success!

  • 616: Lifestyle Creep, Luck, and Why Every Podcast Guest Has an Online Course: Q&A w/ Nick

    AI transcript
    0:00:06 We’re talking lifestyle creep, the role of luck, inadvertently breaking a bunch of links.
    0:00:10 And why does it seem like every podcast guest is selling an online course?
    0:00:11 What’s up?
    0:00:12 What’s up?
    0:00:13 Nick Loper here.
    0:00:14 Welcome to The Side Hustle Show.
    0:00:16 Light on the theory, heavy on the tactics.
    0:00:18 It’s the business podcast you can actually apply.
    0:00:23 And today we’re diving into the listener mailbag for a little Q&A session.
    0:00:25 First question that came through, I love this one.
    0:00:27 Why are so many guests selling an online course?
    0:00:28 That was a listener question.
    0:00:29 I got recently.
    0:00:30 I thought it was a good one.
    0:00:31 It shows you’re paying attention.
    0:00:34 First of all, there is some truth to that perception.
    0:00:38 I looked at the last two years, the last 100 Side Hustle Show episodes.
    0:00:45 In between 20 and 30% of them featured a guest that had a course or a product directly related
    0:00:46 to what we were talking about.
    0:00:47 So why does that happen?
    0:00:49 There’s a few reasons.
    0:00:55 First, it’s kind of been the unwritten rule of media for decades, whether it’s TV, talk
    0:00:56 shows, radio, and now podcasts.
    0:00:58 Look, you help me with content.
    0:01:02 My audience is going to find helpful or entertaining, and I give you a platform to drive exposure
    0:01:03 for your thing.
    0:01:07 It could be the new season of your show, your book, your podcast, your upcoming movie, your
    0:01:12 service offering, or what’s common in the entrepreneurial world, especially the entrepreneurial
    0:01:14 podcast world, your online course.
    0:01:18 Now, another thing to consider is it’s hard to expect somebody to give up an hour of their
    0:01:23 time for that interview, especially if they’re busy entrepreneurs, and especially like in
    0:01:28 the case of the Side Hustle Show, if the expectation is going to be, you’re going to be sharing
    0:01:32 behind-the-scenes stuff about how your business works to potentially create more competition
    0:01:37 for yourself if there’s nothing in it for that guest, just like you don’t usually see
    0:01:41 your favorite celebrity making the rounds, doing interviews, unless they’ve got something
    0:01:42 to promote.
    0:01:43 The podcast world operates similarly.
    0:01:50 Now, I don’t know if other broadcast media is the same way, like our guests paying to
    0:01:56 be on Jimmy Fallon, but some podcasts actually charge guests a multi-thousand dollar appearance
    0:02:01 fee for the exposure they’re going to get as a result of being a guest on that show.
    0:02:04 To be clear, I’ve never charged guests to be on the Side Hustle Show.
    0:02:09 I can only imagine how difficult that would be to not turn every single episode into a
    0:02:12 thinly veiled infomercial if that were the case.
    0:02:13 I love it.
    0:02:16 I love it when I get a guest who is purely excited to share their story.
    0:02:19 When there’s no call to action, they just want to give back.
    0:02:21 They want to motivate and inspire others.
    0:02:26 For the Side Hustle Show specifically, I’m in the fortunate enough position that that
    0:02:29 actually happens a decent percentage of the time.
    0:02:31 Listeners reach out, “Hey, I listened to this episode.
    0:02:32 I took action.
    0:02:36 I’d love to share my story,” but when that does, a funny thing happens.
    0:02:41 I get listeners messaging me, “Hey, loved your episode with so-and-so.
    0:02:42 What’s the best way to get in touch with them?”
    0:02:47 I’m thinking about starting the business that they talked about just out of a few questions.
    0:02:52 It happens often enough that have ad guests reach back out after a few months and say,
    0:02:55 “Hey, I’m thinking about creating an online course because I had so many people looking
    0:02:58 for you or even paid consulting on their topic.”
    0:03:02 An online course could be a great way to leverage their expertise.
    0:03:03 Here’s the thing.
    0:03:08 It’s my job as the podcast host to make the content compelling and helpful even if you
    0:03:13 don’t want to buy the book, even if you don’t want to see the movie or enroll in the course.
    0:03:17 After this model, we all get free content paid for by advertisers.
    0:03:20 I try to make sure my guests have a great experience.
    0:03:27 Sure, I am happy when they see positive results, of course, but my primary responsibility is
    0:03:28 to you.
    0:03:29 That’s the most important thing.
    0:03:33 My primary responsibility is to the audience because if I’m not serving you, if I’m not
    0:03:38 making your life better in some way, it doesn’t take long before I don’t have an audience
    0:03:39 anymore.
    0:03:43 In any case, I thought that was a great observation, a thoughtful question about why so many guests
    0:03:47 seem to have an online course, and hopefully this sheds a little bit more light on why
    0:03:49 that is.
    0:03:54 If you have a guest in mind with nothing to sell but a great story, send them my way.
    0:03:58 Question two is, “I want to sell my Urban Gardening blog.
    0:04:02 Do you have any tips for being proactive in finding a buyer besides putting it up for
    0:04:04 sale on Flipa?”
    0:04:06 This was a question from the Facebook group.
    0:04:10 I think that’s awesome that you have set your business up for an exit, and yes, Flipa and
    0:04:14 other marketplaces are definitely a viable option.
    0:04:19 We’re not seeing multiples as high as we did a few years ago with content sites selling
    0:04:24 for 35 to 45 times monthly earnings in some cases, but it can still be a great payday.
    0:04:31 My first thought here is to look for other gardening or home-related publishers that
    0:04:37 might see your site as a strategic acquisition, either to keep as a standalone brand or under
    0:04:43 an online media umbrella, or to fold into their larger content site.
    0:04:48 I swear I saw an example of this where somebody was buying up competitors, but keeping them
    0:04:52 operating separately, and they ended up in a unique position where they owned half of
    0:04:56 the first page of Google listings for a bunch of different keywords, didn’t matter what
    0:04:59 you clicked on, there was one parent company behind half of those listings.
    0:05:04 The reason I would look for that kind of strategic buyer is probably going to get a better price
    0:05:10 from somebody who knows the space, they’ve got maybe a future vision of your site as
    0:05:12 a piece of that broader business.
    0:05:16 That’s probably where I would look first and do a little proactive outreach there.
    0:05:20 Question three is, let’s talk lifestyle creep.
    0:05:22 As your income grows, how much do you allow?
    0:05:26 This one came from the ChooseFI Facebook group.
    0:05:28 Lifestyle creep is a quick definition.
    0:05:33 If you’re not familiar with that term, it’s the tendency for your expenses to creep up
    0:05:37 as your income grows, and I think that’s fine.
    0:05:41 Provided you’re spending on things that improve your quality of life, you work hard for that,
    0:05:42 so enjoy it, right?
    0:05:47 But it’s also important to do that with a full understanding of both the costs, the
    0:05:50 near term costs, and the opportunity costs.
    0:05:54 Your savings rate, your personal profitability as a household, how much is left over after
    0:05:59 all your expenses, that’s the single biggest lever that you have on your path to financial
    0:06:00 independence.
    0:06:04 If you make a lot and spend very little, it doesn’t take long before your assets can
    0:06:09 cover your lifestyle, on paper at least, and you can find all sorts of calculators online
    0:06:14 to show you that every $100 you save today is really worth $400 in 30 years or something,
    0:06:18 but you have to couple with that with, I could get hit by a bus tomorrow.
    0:06:19 Life’s short.
    0:06:24 You got to find a way to enjoy the present, to enjoy the journey while not screwing your
    0:06:29 future self, but the idea that you’re going to live super frugally for 15 to 20 years to
    0:06:34 achieve fire, financial independence, retire early, and then all of a sudden turn on that
    0:06:36 spending habit, that’s not realistic.
    0:06:38 Frugal habits die hard.
    0:06:43 It’s something that Bert and I have experienced firsthand where we’ll be stressing, stressing
    0:06:48 is probably a strong word, but contemplating, should we buy this thing that the kids need?
    0:06:51 Maybe it’s the next size up for a pair of shoes or something because it’s on sale and
    0:06:53 the sale ends tonight.
    0:06:57 But if we buy them not on sale, it’s only an extra 20 bucks.
    0:07:01 In the nature of retail, there’s probably another sale coming down the road in a few
    0:07:03 months when he might actually need them.
    0:07:08 Our fixed expenses, thinking about the lifestyle creep thing, our fixed expenses probably maxed
    0:07:10 out when we had both boys in preschool four days a week.
    0:07:16 I don’t remember the exact number, but I’m sure it was over $3,000 a month.
    0:07:21 And now that they’re both in school, to have that coming back to the bottom line, it’s
    0:07:24 a lot easier to justify some conscious lifestyle creep.
    0:07:28 There’s three grand that we were previously spending that were not anymore.
    0:07:31 Could we spend one of it to make life better in some way?
    0:07:32 Could we spend two of it?
    0:07:34 It’s like you weren’t missing it when it wasn’t there.
    0:07:39 In our case, that’s been things like paying for the more convenient airport parking.
    0:07:41 It’s been making some home improvements.
    0:07:45 It’s going to the workout classes we like, even though it’s more than working out at
    0:07:46 home.
    0:07:50 It’s hitting the easy button on occasion with takeout and meal delivery, where we’ve
    0:07:58 been hesitant when it comes to lifestyle creep is committing to long-term increased expenses.
    0:08:02 Like you would if you bought a bigger house, along with that comes the bigger mortgage,
    0:08:07 the higher property taxes, the higher utilities, or really any recurring service.
    0:08:10 You got to be sure it’s really worth it.
    0:08:14 And to be fair, a lot of these are fairly low risk, pretty easily reversible.
    0:08:19 The bigger challenge is dealing with the mental fallout of the lifestyle slipping, the opposite
    0:08:21 of lifestyle creep.
    0:08:25 If you find yourself needing to cut back on spending because your income suddenly decreases
    0:08:31 and that means giving up on luxuries you’ve grown accustomed to, it feels like a big loss.
    0:08:35 Even if the trimmed back version is still a perfectly healthy lifestyle, that’s where
    0:08:38 the hedonic adaptation comes into play here.
    0:08:41 It’s pretty easy to get used to a certain level of convenience and comfort and hard to
    0:08:45 go back to a place where that’s no longer feasible.
    0:08:48 Even if it’s still better off than people were 50 years ago, 100 years ago, we could
    0:08:53 talk about this stuff for hours and which specific lifestyle upgrades are worth it.
    0:08:55 But that’s how we tend to think about it.
    0:08:59 Spending definitely became easier as our income increased and it’s become easier when certain
    0:09:04 big ticket expenses like childcare went away and it became easier after hitting financial
    0:09:09 independence number we were comfortable with or at least a cost-fi number we were comfortable
    0:09:10 with.
    0:09:13 But take a look at your income and expenses and if you have a big gap to play with and
    0:09:18 you’re happy with where you’re at work wise, absolutely enjoy the fruits of your labor,
    0:09:20 let that lifestyle creep a little bit.
    0:09:25 I’ve got more Q&A coming up right after this.
    0:09:28 That’s the sound of another sale on your online Shopify store.
    0:09:32 But did you know Shopify powers in-person selling too?
    0:09:33 It’s true.
    0:09:40 Shopify is the sound of selling everywhere, online, in-store, on social media, and beyond.
    0:09:42 Shopify POS is your command center for your retail store.
    0:09:47 That means you can accept payments, manage inventory, and track every sale across your
    0:09:48 business in one place.
    0:09:52 With Shopify, you get a powerhouse selling partner that helps you drive store traffic
    0:09:57 with plug-and-play tools built for marketing campaigns from TikTok to Instagram and beyond.
    0:10:02 You can take payments by smartphone, transform your tablet into a point-of-sale system, or
    0:10:06 use Shopify’s POS Go mobile device for a battle-tested solution.
    0:10:11 Plus, Shopify’s award-winning help is there to support your success every step of the
    0:10:12 way.
    0:10:14 You can also get a retail right with Shopify.
    0:10:20 Go ahead, sign up for a $1 per month trial period at Shopify.com/SideHussell.
    0:10:21 That’s all lowercase.
    0:10:31 Go to Shopify.com/SideHussell to take your retail business to the next level today — Shopify.com/SideHussell.
    0:10:35 As business owners, we understand that good design and product packaging can be key to
    0:10:36 growing your business.
    0:10:40 And if your sales are lagging, a rebrand might be part of the solution.
    0:10:44 Still, it can be really challenging to figure out how to even start the process.
    0:10:48 If you’re asking yourself, “Ah, is a rebrand really worth the effort and the cost,” you’re
    0:10:54 going to want to check out a recent episode of a great podcast called “This Is Small Business”
    0:10:58 with Andrea Marquez that walks you through the process of figuring this out.
    0:11:02 The episode is called “How Good Design Can Help Increase Sales,” where I learned that
    0:11:05 design is so much more than just aesthetics.
    0:11:10 It impacts user experience, it impacts brand perception, and ultimately, it impacts business
    0:11:11 growth.
    0:11:15 “This Is Small Business” is full of practical insights that you can apply to your business
    0:11:16 right now.
    0:11:20 And it answers so many of the kinds of questions that all entrepreneurs have, like how to build
    0:11:25 your marketing strategy, how to use email lists to increase revenue, and tips to accelerate
    0:11:28 small business growth, along with tons more.
    0:11:33 So follow “This Is Small Business,” an original podcast from Amazon, wherever you listen.
    0:11:37 Question four is, “I noticed your email links are all broken.
    0:11:38 What’s going on?
    0:11:39 What happened?”
    0:11:44 Well, what happened was, in March, we switched from Active Campaign to ConvertKit, and one
    0:11:49 of the unintended consequences of that move was all the Active Campaign links died, seven
    0:11:51 years of them.
    0:11:54 Not a great user experience for people who kept those emails in their inbox to refer
    0:11:57 back to, but that’s what happened.
    0:11:58 Sorry about that.
    0:11:59 And why the move?
    0:12:00 Why the change?
    0:12:02 A few reasons for that.
    0:12:05 I mean, first of all, Active Campaign, great tool, super powerful.
    0:12:11 I was attracted to ConvertKit by their investments and their commitment to the broader creator
    0:12:12 economy.
    0:12:18 They’ve added a ton of cool features, including subscriber referral programs, their sponsor
    0:12:22 network, their creator network, which truthfully haven’t fully explored yet, but unlike in
    0:12:24 the platform so far, it’s funny.
    0:12:30 The interface and design is miles ahead of where Active Campaign is, and there are some
    0:12:34 really thoughtful features, but there’s other stuff where it’s like, “Dude, I kind of liked
    0:12:35 it better the old way.
    0:12:37 I liked it better the Active Campaign way.”
    0:12:43 My frustration with Active Campaign was my inability to reach anyone when I had questions
    0:12:46 about my account and specifically about a big price increase.
    0:12:52 I’m of the thinking that, look, everything is negotiable, and that was my intent.
    0:12:55 I would have liked to have thought of myself as a fairly valuable long-term customer.
    0:13:00 I’ve been with them since 2017, had over 100,000 subscribers, and to be fair, not knowing
    0:13:06 a ton about the inner workings of running an email delivery business, but I had to imagine
    0:13:10 they had some margin to play with price-wise to get me to stick around, but it was a big
    0:13:11 challenge.
    0:13:15 I was not impressed with that customer support or sales support.
    0:13:19 They ended up stripping away some features from my account without even telling me.
    0:13:24 I think they were banking on the switching costs, being too high, being too big of a
    0:13:30 pain to actually do it and unravel the last seven years of opt-in forms and integrations
    0:13:32 all across the internet, and it was a big pain.
    0:13:36 It was a big project, which, to their credit, ConvertKit said, “Hey, we’ll handle it.
    0:13:37 We want your business.
    0:13:42 We’ll do the migration,” and they did, but overall, ConvertKit, I think, better feature-set,
    0:13:46 a company that’s more in line with SideHustle Nation and the Creator Economy at a similar
    0:13:47 price point.
    0:13:50 It just happened that all the old email links broken.
    0:13:54 All the new ones are working, all the ConvertKit ones are working, so for March forward, should
    0:13:58 be just fine, but any emails before that probably have broken links in them.
    0:14:02 If you find those, if you come across those and can’t find those resources through Google
    0:14:05 or something else, let me know, and I’ll see if I can dig those up for you.
    0:14:10 Question five is how much of success is attributed to luck?
    0:14:16 Now, 15, 20 years ago, I would have wanted to dismiss luck almost entirely.
    0:14:17 Go make your own luck.
    0:14:18 The harder I work, the luckier I get, right?
    0:14:25 Am I thinking on it has evolved a bit, hard work, being proactive, seizing an opportunity,
    0:14:28 obviously, still super important.
    0:14:33 But there definitely is an element of right place, right time, an element of luck in almost
    0:14:34 everything that we do.
    0:14:38 For example, I think it’s a lot harder to get attention for a new podcast today than
    0:14:40 it was in 2013.
    0:14:45 Do be sure, still fell crowded then, but nowhere near the level of quality and quantity of
    0:14:47 competition that’s out there today.
    0:14:52 Another example, my original SideHustle, the price comparison site for shoes, it started
    0:14:59 out during a time when a relative beginner could still go out and buy profitable text
    0:15:00 link ads from Google.
    0:15:04 Sure, I put in the work, but that was lucky timing.
    0:15:09 I never would have started that business had it not been for an internship with an online
    0:15:14 shoe store during college, that I might never have even found out about that internship had
    0:15:20 it not been for my roommate pointing out their little classified ad in our school newspaper.
    0:15:21 That was lucky, right?
    0:15:26 It was one of these seemingly insignificant at the time moments that turned out to be
    0:15:29 a major turning point for the next 20 years.
    0:15:32 It’s a weird fork in the road scenario to play out.
    0:15:36 How different might life look if he didn’t share that with me?
    0:15:38 But how can you increase your luck?
    0:15:39 How can you improve your odds?
    0:15:43 A friend of mine recently shared this article that has an answer to that.
    0:15:48 It was called How to Increase Your Luck Surface Area written by Jason Roberts.
    0:15:53 He writes, quote, “The amount of serendipity that will occur in your life, your luck surface
    0:15:58 area, is directly proportional to the degree to which you do something you’re passionate
    0:16:04 about combined with the total number of people to whom this is effectively communicated.”
    0:16:09 It’s a simple concept, but an extremely powerful one because it implies that you can directly
    0:16:12 control the amount of luck you receive.
    0:16:16 In other words, you make your own luck, end quote.
    0:16:17 So those are the two ingredients.
    0:16:20 You work, you care about, share with others.
    0:16:25 Creation plus marketing, product plus sales, increase your luck surface area.
    0:16:26 I thought that was pretty cool.
    0:16:31 Question six is how much do you need to earn on an annual basis for your side hustle to
    0:16:32 be worth it?
    0:16:37 Now, obviously, this is going to be extremely subjective based on your goals, your financial
    0:16:41 situation, and how much time you’re investing into your side hustle.
    0:16:45 On the one end of the spectrum, we can probably all agree if you’re hustling an extra 20 hours
    0:16:49 a week and don’t have any income to show for it, not worth it, right?
    0:16:53 Maybe the exception there is a startup phase of a business where you’re laying the foundation,
    0:16:57 you’re building an audience, you’re building a product, and you expect to see revenue soon.
    0:17:00 If you’re just spinning your wheels, clearly not worth it.
    0:17:03 But how much do you have to make for it to be worth it?
    0:17:08 My suggestion is to find a dollar amount that’s meaningful to you in some way.
    0:17:09 It could be $100 a year.
    0:17:10 It doesn’t matter.
    0:17:14 And one way to do that is to find an expense that you want to erase.
    0:17:19 I call this the side hustle snowball, how it works as you itemize out your monthly expenses
    0:17:25 from smallest to largest, from your cell phone bill or life insurance or Netflix account or
    0:17:30 gym membership all the way up to your car payment, your childcare, your rent, your mortgage.
    0:17:34 And then I look for ways to erase those expenses with extra income.
    0:17:36 How can I make my Netflix free?
    0:17:38 Well, maybe I could sell something on eBay.
    0:17:40 How can I cover my cell phone bill?
    0:17:43 Well, maybe I could do a focus group or answer some surveys.
    0:17:45 How can I cover my car payment?
    0:17:47 Maybe I could start freelancing.
    0:17:52 What this allows you to do is celebrate some smaller side hustle wins along the way, even
    0:17:56 if it’s not replacing your day job income, even though you’re not going to retire early
    0:17:57 from it.
    0:18:01 It was still worth it, both from a financial standpoint, but hopefully also from a skills
    0:18:05 learned or connections made standpoint.
    0:18:08 Question seven is what kind of things can I rent out for a profit?
    0:18:12 I heard about people doing inflatables and bounce houses, but I don’t think I could set
    0:18:13 those up.
    0:18:16 Well, I like rental businesses, you know, an opportunity to get paid over and over again
    0:18:19 from an asset you buy once.
    0:18:20 Inflatables are definitely one option.
    0:18:24 If you’re not comfortable setting them up yourself, maybe you could hire a helper, but
    0:18:28 some of the other rental businesses we’ve talked about, I’ll link up the episode numbers
    0:18:31 and the resources for these in the show notes.
    0:18:35 Other rental businesses we’ve talked about include portable hot tubs, photo booths for
    0:18:38 brand activations and weddings and company parties.
    0:18:41 We did mobility scooters somewhat recently.
    0:18:46 We had a story about champagne walls at weddings, kind of this wooden nicely designed thing.
    0:18:50 People can grab champagne off of little pegs, lots of different ideas.
    0:18:54 Like down by our lake, there’s a company that from the outside looking in appears to be
    0:18:59 doing a booming business renting out kayaks and paddleboards in the summer.
    0:19:05 I think the key is finding those one-off items and tapping into some existing demand either
    0:19:10 through an existing marketplace, through your own marketing efforts, through social media,
    0:19:14 through SEO, or just by getting in front of people at the place where they’re looking
    0:19:18 for that activity, like in the example of the kayaks.
    0:19:19 Question eight was this.
    0:19:20 I have a video camera.
    0:19:21 Here’s another rental idea.
    0:19:24 I’ve got a video camera I’m not using and was thinking of renting it out, but how do
    0:19:25 I make sure I get it back?
    0:19:28 My goal is to make $500 to $1,000 a month.
    0:19:30 Do you think that’s doable?
    0:19:35 If you’re renting it directly, person to person, you don’t want to have all of the contracts
    0:19:39 and insurance and security deposits to make sure that you do get it back and you get it
    0:19:45 back in the condition that you expect, but what’s probably easier and a potentially faster
    0:19:49 way to connect with customers would be to use the buy buttons strategy of going where
    0:19:51 the cash is already flowing.
    0:19:54 If I want to rent out a video camera, where would I go?
    0:19:58 What are the video rental marketplaces or camera gear marketplaces?
    0:20:03 ShareGrid was one that I came across and in that example, they’re going to handle all
    0:20:04 that back-end paperwork.
    0:20:06 They’re going to verify insurance for your renters.
    0:20:11 As far as the $500 to $1,000 a month goal, it seems feasible based on the rates that
    0:20:17 I see on the site from $35 to $100 plus per day, depending on the type of equipment that
    0:20:20 you have, but there’s really only one way to find out.
    0:20:21 You got to test this stuff out.
    0:20:23 You got to find out for yourself.
    0:20:24 Maybe it works.
    0:20:26 Maybe it doesn’t, but at least you’ll be doing something.
    0:20:30 You’ll be increasing your luck surface area and maybe opening the doors to other opportunities
    0:20:32 at the same time.
    0:20:36 Number nine is I’m currently working on an AI-inspired Instagram page that just passed
    0:20:38 1,900 followers.
    0:20:40 I’d love to monetize it, but I’m not sure how.
    0:20:45 Any advice on how to take an Instagram page from just artwork and followers to making
    0:20:47 some side hustle money?
    0:20:50 The way I see this one, I see a few different paths that this could go.
    0:20:54 First off, you could provide a service and maybe not to your followers, but just a broader
    0:20:55 service.
    0:21:00 You could make AI images for other Instagram accounts, for other brands, for other creators,
    0:21:05 who don’t want to do this themselves, don’t know how to do this themselves.
    0:21:06 You’re a pro.
    0:21:07 You can go do that for them.
    0:21:10 The second way would be brand deals and sponsored content.
    0:21:12 How do influencers make money?
    0:21:14 That’s one way that a lot of them do.
    0:21:19 I think the following would have to grow significantly before that’s really viable.
    0:21:22 If you’re at 1,900, you’d want to see it at 1,900, 1,000.
    0:21:29 Every time you can level up, your clout improves in terms of what you can charge and what brands
    0:21:30 you can get.
    0:21:36 The third would be to create an audience-facing product, like maybe in this case, an AI-generated
    0:21:37 coloring book or something like that.
    0:21:42 It could be print on demand through Amazon, whatever, but an audience-facing product in
    0:21:43 that same niche.
    0:21:49 Fourth would be you could create a course on how to generate AI images if that’s something
    0:21:50 that your audience is interested in.
    0:21:54 I guess you could do a quick poll and say, “Hey, is this something that you would like?”
    0:21:59 Or you could even do a pre-sale, “Hey, if I get 20 customers, I’ll build this.”
    0:22:01 Refund people’s money if they don’t want it.
    0:22:03 And then lastly would be affiliate promos.
    0:22:08 I don’t know if mid-journey or any of these other AI art tools, if they have an affiliate
    0:22:12 program or referral program, but that would be another way to go if your followers want
    0:22:17 to learn how to create this stuff themselves, “Hey, you’re going to want to start with
    0:22:21 a free trial of this thing, and maybe that converts into a paid thing, and maybe that
    0:22:24 converts into an affiliate commission for you down the road.”
    0:22:26 But you’re increasing your luck surface area.
    0:22:28 You’re doing something that you care about.
    0:22:30 You’re telling people about it through this account.
    0:22:34 And so I think positive things can come from that.
    0:22:35 Question 10.
    0:22:36 This is our final question for this episode.
    0:22:41 It says, “I’m starting a new website, but I’m not sure what to put on my about page,
    0:22:44 especially since it’s going to be my first entry.”
    0:22:49 And the good news here is that your about page doesn’t require any additional posts
    0:22:50 on the site.
    0:22:52 It can be all about you and your target readers.
    0:22:56 It’s a good place to share your excitement and hopefully your credentials to talk about
    0:23:00 your topic and what readers can expect to find on your site.
    0:23:04 For example, I use the Side Hustle Nation About page to share a little about me, a little
    0:23:12 bit about my background, but really to also try and describe and connect with that ideal
    0:23:17 Side Hustle Nation reader and how I can help them achieve what they want.
    0:23:20 It’s not people are tuned into the “What’s in it for me?” type of thing.
    0:23:24 And of course, I want to invite them to dive deeper into the content, join the email list.
    0:23:29 The about page says, “My entrepreneurial journey began at an early age, selling candy to my
    0:23:33 fellow Boy Scouts at summer camp and eventually painting houses in college.
    0:23:35 After graduation, I did what you’re supposed to do.
    0:23:40 I got a full-time job for a giant corporation, but I built my business nights and weekends.
    0:23:41 You can do it too.
    0:23:43 Look, everybody’s got their own reasons to Side Hustle.
    0:23:44 Maybe you want to make extra money.
    0:23:46 Maybe you want to pay off debt.
    0:23:47 Maybe you want to learn new skills.
    0:23:49 Maybe you want to use your free time more productively.
    0:23:51 Maybe you want to escape the rat race.
    0:23:54 Whatever your reason, I’m here to help.”
    0:23:59 The about page also includes a list of 25 random facts about me along with some pet peeves,
    0:24:04 which are really designed to just personalize the words on the screen.
    0:24:11 Like yes, there’s a real human here who has been studying this whole make extra money
    0:24:14 thing for a long time and would like to help you make some for yourself.
    0:24:19 And the other important thing with your about page or really with any website content, it’s
    0:24:20 not set in stone.
    0:24:25 You can always go back and update it later as the business evolves.
    0:24:26 That is it for me.
    0:24:27 Thank you so much for tuning in.
    0:24:31 Until next time, let’s go out there and make something happen, and I’ll catch you in the
    0:24:33 next edition of the Side Hustle Show.
    0:24:35 Hustle on.
    0:24:39 As a Side Hustle Show listener, I know you’re driven, otherwise you wouldn’t be here.
    0:24:44 But I also know you can end up hustling and driving yourself into exhaustion, overwhelm,
    0:24:49 and even burnout if you don’t stay anchored to why you’re doing it.
    0:24:53 That’s why I want to recommend another podcast that will massively support your Side Hustle.
    0:24:56 It’s called What Drives You with host Kevin Miller.
    0:24:58 Kevin’s a former pro athlete.
    0:25:02 He’s a lifelong entrepreneur who started 19 different businesses.
    0:25:06 He’s a father of nine kids, an author and a mountain adventurer as well.
    0:25:10 He knows both the glory and the dark side of drive and has devoted his life to helping
    0:25:16 people who want to drive further, faster, but also enjoy the ride every single day.
    0:25:20 He brings on today’s most influential people in personal and business development to see
    0:25:24 what drives them and get their guidance on the key ingredients that power our own drive.
    0:25:29 If you want to fully harness your drive and find peace and fulfillment in the process,
    0:25:33 go find What Drives You with Kevin Miller, wherever you listen to podcasts.

    In this episode, we’re diving deep into the listener mailbag for a Q&A session.

    I’ll tackle things like lifestyle creep, the role of luck, and inadvertently breaking a bunch of links.

    And hey, why does it seem like every podcast guest is selling an online course?

    Spoiler: there’s some truth to it, and we’ll dig into why that happens.

    This is the 16th installment of this series, so feel free to check out the older ones:

    It’s a jam-packed Q&A session with actionable insights to help you level up your side hustle game, so there’s a little something for everyone in this episode.

    Let’s dive in!

    Full Show Notes: Lifestyle Creep, Luck, and Why Every Podcast Guest Has an Online Course: Q&A w/ Nick

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