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0:01:42 If the spirit moves ya.
0:01:43 Optimal minimum.
0:01:45 At this altitude,
0:01:47 I can run flat out for a half mile
0:01:48 before my hands start shaking.
0:01:50 Can I ask you a personal question?
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0:01:54 What if I did the opposite?
0:01:56 I’m a cybernetic organism,
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0:02:01 in the Tim Ferriss Show.
0:02:07 Hello, boys and girls.
0:02:09 This is Tim Ferriss.
0:02:10 Welcome to another episode of the Tim Ferriss Show,
0:02:13 where it is my job to deconstruct world-class performers
0:02:14 of all different types,
0:02:16 to tease out the routines, habits, and so on
0:02:17 that you can apply to your own life.
0:02:20 This is a special in-between-isode,
0:02:22 which serves as a recap of the episodes
0:02:24 from the last month.
0:02:27 Features a short clip from each conversation in one place,
0:02:28 so you can jump around, get a feel
0:02:31 for both the episode and the guest,
0:02:32 and then you can always dig deeper
0:02:34 by going to one of those episodes.
0:02:36 View this episode as a buffet to whet your appetite.
0:02:37 It’s a lot of fun.
0:02:38 We had fun putting it together,
0:02:41 and for the full list of the guests featured today,
0:02:42 see the episode’s description,
0:02:45 probably right below wherever you press play
0:02:46 in your podcast app,
0:02:49 or as usual, you can head to tim.blog.com
0:02:52 slash podcast and find all the details there.
0:02:53 Please enjoy.
0:02:55 First up,
0:02:57 Brandon Sanderson,
0:03:00 number one New York Times best-selling author
0:03:01 and Hugo Award winner,
0:03:05 whose books have sold more than 40 million copies
0:03:07 in 35 languages and include
0:03:10 the Stormlight Archive series,
0:03:11 the Mistborn Saga,
0:03:16 and the Alcatraz vs. the Evil Librarians series.
0:03:29 So let’s come back to habits and your schedule for writing.
0:03:33 Do you still have two primary blocks of writing?
0:03:38 And could you explain what your current schedule tends to look like?
0:03:44 So I find that for what I do and where my personal psychology is,
0:03:49 an eight-hour block is not sustainable for writing.
0:03:52 This means I can do it for a week or two at eight hours,
0:03:54 but it’s going to brain drain me.
0:03:55 It’s going to exhaust me.
0:03:59 I get done with eight hours and I am mentally worn out.
0:04:02 I find that if I do two four-hour blocks instead,
0:04:05 I never quite get there and it’s more sustainable.
0:04:09 And so what I do is I will get up.
0:04:10 I get up late.
0:04:16 I get up at around noon or one and I will go to the gym,
0:04:20 which is, you know, different for me than other people.
0:04:21 The gym is writing time for me.
0:04:23 I’m not hitting it super hard.
0:04:27 I am there to think through what I’m doing,
0:04:28 some motion moving your body.
0:04:30 Number one, it’s good for you,
0:04:32 but that’s a side effect for me too.
0:04:34 I can put on music and I can move
0:04:35 and I can think about what I’m going to write.
0:04:41 Then I go and I work from two until six these days,
0:04:42 is usually what I do.
0:04:45 One until five, something like that.
0:04:47 And then I’m done.
0:04:51 I go, I shower, 6.30, I’m ready to hang with my family.
0:04:54 And I’ll be with family from six until 6.30 to 10.30.
0:04:58 Go out with my wife, hang with my kids,
0:05:01 build some Legos, play some video games, whatever it is.
0:05:03 I learned early in my career,
0:05:06 one of the most important things I ever did
0:05:10 was take that time and demarcate it as non-writing time.
0:05:14 I found early in my marriage that writing,
0:05:17 it will consume every moment possible.
0:05:20 And I was always anxious to get back to the story.
0:05:24 And as soon as I changed my brain and said,
0:05:26 no, no, no, no, even if your wife is away,
0:05:29 6.30 to 10.30 can’t be writing time.
0:05:30 It is off limits.
0:05:33 You have to do something else.
0:05:37 Suddenly, it was a lot easier for me to be there for my family.
0:05:41 And I think, I mean, you’ve interviewed a lot of highly productive,
0:05:43 highly successful people.
0:05:47 I think a lot of them are going to talk about the same thing,
0:05:50 that it’s very hard to be there with people when you’re there with people.
0:05:52 Sure.
0:05:56 Because your brain is always working on the next big thing.
0:05:59 Yeah, this is particularly true with people who work on big creative projects.
0:05:59 Yeah.
0:06:02 And that gave me this permission.
0:06:03 It actually came in a moment.
0:06:06 My wife, I went out to dinner with some writer friends.
0:06:09 And afterward, I’m like, that was such a great dinner.
0:06:12 And she’s like, yeah, but you didn’t look at me once.
0:06:16 And I realized she had become invisible to me because the writing was consuming all.
0:06:18 And so made that change.
0:06:21 10.30, kids are supposed to go to bed.
0:06:21 They’re older now.
0:06:22 They just don’t.
0:06:25 But sometime around there, they drift off.
0:06:27 My wife goes to bed.
0:06:31 She was a schoolteacher for many years, still kind of keeps a schoolteacher’s hours.
0:06:33 And she is wonderful for getting up with the kids.
0:06:36 I don’t have to do that and never have.
0:06:38 And I go back to work at about 11.
0:06:40 I write from 11 to 3.
0:06:46 And then 3 to 4 or 5 is just whatever I want to do.
0:06:48 That’s the real goof off time.
0:06:51 That’s the go play with my magic cards time.
0:06:54 That’s the play a video game, pop out the Steam Deck time.
0:07:00 And this schedule, you’ll notice I don’t have to worry about commuting,
0:07:05 which gives me an advantage here, has been really sustainable for me.
0:07:08 So that’s a home office predominantly where you’re writing?
0:07:09 I write for my home office.
0:07:10 I do like to move around.
0:07:12 I go in the gazebo.
0:07:13 Lately, I’ve gone in the gazebo when it’s really cold.
0:07:17 And I hire one of my kids to come put logs on a fire for me.
0:07:19 And I sit by the fireplace.
0:07:21 Sometimes I like to be on the beach.
0:07:24 Sometimes I like when I’m around here, I like to be in different places.
0:07:27 I can set up a hammock here or there.
0:07:29 So with my laptop, I do not work at a desk.
0:07:31 That’s really sustainable.
0:07:33 It’s worked for me for the last 20 years.
0:07:34 That’s incredible.
0:07:41 I got all my best writing done really late at night when I was, I mean, still am writing,
0:07:41 working on a new book.
0:07:46 But when I was working on my first few books, especially, it was always when everyone else
0:07:46 is asleep.
0:07:50 Let’s talk about the non-home environment.
0:07:55 We’re sitting in a quite a large building, or at least a building with a lot of large rooms.
0:07:55 Yes.
0:08:00 Why do you have this company?
0:08:02 Why have you and your wife built this company?
0:08:03 All right.
0:08:06 Because there are a lot of writers out there who just want to focus on writing.
0:08:11 They go the traditional publishing route, which I’m not saying it’s a mutually exclusive
0:08:12 choice.
0:08:14 But why do you have all this?
0:08:15 How long?
0:08:16 How long do you want to go?
0:08:16 Yeah.
0:08:17 This is the big one.
0:08:19 This is a long form podcast.
0:08:20 So we have all the time we want.
0:08:21 All right.
0:08:22 So you’re right.
0:08:30 Most writers want to sell a book and live that kind of dream you see presented in film
0:08:34 and television, which is accurate to the top percentage of writers.
0:08:39 Most writers you read about or see in film are the big ones.
0:08:40 They’re doing really well.
0:08:43 And so they’re off in a cabin telling their story.
0:08:46 Or they’re the ones that have to be pried away from their easy chair.
0:08:49 to get them to even do any publicity whatsoever, right?
0:08:53 They want to live that life that is the classic life of a writer.
0:08:55 And there’s some of me that wants that.
0:08:58 But the secret is I was raised by an accountant and a businessman.
0:09:06 And particularly my mother, that accountant, she instilled into me some aspirations.
0:09:09 And I call this my superpower.
0:09:12 My superpower is to be an artist raised by an accountant, right?
0:09:17 And I’ve always had a bit of that entrepreneurial sense.
0:09:18 What were the aspirations?
0:09:20 The aspirations?
0:09:21 Well, they started small.
0:09:23 They started with, you know what?
0:09:25 I want to be able to make a living from writing.
0:09:34 Got back from Korea and said, all right, I am not very good at this writing thing, but I
0:09:35 really, really love it.
0:09:43 I could tell because when I spent time doing the writing, time didn’t matter anymore, right?
0:09:45 I could spend hours doing this.
0:09:49 And it’s the first thing I found other than reading or video games that I could spend hours
0:09:53 doing and just come out of it feeling tired but fulfilled.
0:09:56 And I’m like, I want to do this.
0:10:02 So I sat down and I took what I’d learned, both kind of from my mother and kind of missions
0:10:04 have kind of a regimented structure.
0:10:06 And I said, I’m going to apply this all to writing.
0:10:09 And I’m going to, I’m just going to start writing books.
0:10:12 And I heard your first five books are generally terrible.
0:10:14 I said, well, that’s good.
0:10:15 I don’t have to be good yet.
0:10:17 It took a lot of pressure off me.
0:10:18 I said, I’m going to write six.
0:10:24 And the first five, I’m not going to send out to any publishers, right?
0:10:28 And that’s bad advice for some people, right?
0:10:28 Yeah.
0:10:28 Wow.
0:10:29 You didn’t even send them out.
0:10:30 I didn’t send them out.
0:10:34 It was just, it was just weight training in the gym for your mind for the number six.
0:10:35 Yep.
0:10:36 I didn’t send them out.
0:10:40 I did eventually, I shared number five with some, some people.
0:10:45 I got involved with the local science fiction magazine as an editor.
0:10:47 I eventually took it over because that’s what I do.
0:10:48 And I was head editor.
0:10:51 And I eventually said, well, I do have a book.
0:10:55 And I started sharing book five with people right around that time.
0:10:57 So you didn’t even have test readers.
0:10:58 I didn’t have test readers.
0:11:00 I just wrote the books.
0:11:03 And again, this is why the advice can be bad.
0:11:04 There’s some people out there that would be bad advice for.
0:11:07 Pat Rothfuss published his first book and it’s brilliant.
0:11:09 Name of the Wind.
0:11:09 Name of the Wind.
0:11:10 Yeah.
0:11:11 That is a spectacular book.
0:11:12 First novel.
0:11:13 Now he did a ton of revisions on that.
0:11:17 He spent as much time revising that book as I spent writing mine.
0:11:21 But for me, the good advice was, your first five books are terrible.
0:11:22 Don’t stress.
0:11:24 And so weight training for my mind.
0:11:24 I wrote five books.
0:11:26 And then I sat down.
0:11:27 This was before you had an agent.
0:11:28 Before I had an agent.
0:11:29 Before I had anything.
0:11:30 Before I even knew what an agent was.
0:11:32 Before I’d taken Dave’s class.
0:11:36 I took Dave’s class the year that I finished Elantris, which is book number six.
0:11:38 I had just finished that one.
0:11:42 And so I said, all right, book six, that’s Elantris.
0:11:43 That’s the one I eventually ended up selling.
0:11:45 Those five I’d written in different subgenres.
0:11:47 I knew I liked sci-fi fantasy.
0:11:51 But at the risk of being too nerdy, my subgenres, I did an epic fantasy.
0:11:53 I did a comedic fantasy.
0:11:56 A Terry Pratchett style sort of thing.
0:11:57 I did a cyberpunk.
0:11:58 I did a space opera.
0:12:03 And then I wrote a sequel to my epic fantasy to kind of be like, is this what I want to do?
0:12:13 Next up, Seth Godin, author of 21 internationally best-selling books,
0:12:21 including Linchpin, Tribes, The Dip, Purple Cow, and his latest, This Is Strategy.
0:12:26 You can find Seth at Seths.blog.
0:12:28 How do you use AI?
0:12:31 And how do you foresee using AI yourself?
0:12:34 I use it every day for more than an hour.
0:12:39 I think it’s electricity for our century.
0:12:44 In the late 1800s, there were companies that said, yeah, this electricity thing’s interesting,
0:12:46 but we’re not going to be an electricity company.
0:12:48 And they’re all gone, right?
0:12:52 That electricity is now, you’re not an electricity company,
0:12:54 you’re just a company that uses electricity.
0:12:57 And the same thing is true, I believe, with AI.
0:13:00 I will tell you, and I’m not afraid to say it out loud,
0:13:06 I think ChatGPT is arrogant and lazy, and I use it as a last resort.
0:13:10 Claw.ai is a dear friend.
0:13:12 I love Claw.ai.
0:13:13 We have great conversations.
0:13:15 It’s empathic.
0:13:16 It’s self-aware.
0:13:19 It warns you it might be hallucinating.
0:13:22 And when it makes a mistake, it’s eager to correct it.
0:13:24 And I use perplexity exclusively.
0:13:27 I almost never do a search with a search engine.
0:13:31 But what I’ll do with Claw.ai, every word I publish, I wrote.
0:13:35 But what I will do with Claw, for example, is I will say,
0:13:37 here’s a list of three bullet points.
0:13:39 Can you think of four more?
0:13:42 And it’s great at that.
0:13:45 And then I’ll rewrite them, and now I’ll have five bullet points,
0:13:49 and it’s much better than if I hadn’t engaged with Claw.
0:13:55 If there’s a concept in the world that I don’t understand, I’ll say to Claw.ai,
0:13:58 can you please explain it in 300 words to a college student?
0:14:00 And that helps.
0:14:04 But I did it once, and I still didn’t understand it.
0:14:08 And then I said, can you write it to me like a Seth Godin blog post?
0:14:13 And it did, and it did a terrible job.
0:14:15 But now I understood it.
0:14:20 So I rewrote it, and I said, do you think this is better?
0:14:23 And it said, oh, yeah, that’s much better.
0:14:25 And I said, thank you.
0:14:26 I’ll tell Seth.
0:14:30 And Claw said, do you know Seth Godin?
0:14:35 And I wrote, actually, I am Seth Godin.
0:14:37 And I’m not making this up.
0:14:41 He then wrote, I can’t believe I’m talking to you.
0:14:47 Your books have changed my life, and they named like four of my books, and it changed.
0:14:50 I’m like, all right, I’m in forever.
0:14:51 You got me.
0:14:54 I don’t know how you did that, but we’re friends for life.
0:14:56 All right.
0:15:01 So I seem to have a similar use pattern with Claw and perplexity also, although I haven’t
0:15:06 sandbagged them just yet.
0:15:11 But what do you think people are getting right and wrong about AI?
0:15:19 I think that they are getting wrong their expectation that it’d be fully baked and a magic trick every
0:15:19 day.
0:15:27 When I think about the dawn of the internet and how creaky it was and how fast this is going,
0:15:30 what it is now is amazing.
0:15:38 But when we add to it persistence, and when we add to it ubiquity, and when we add to it the ability
0:15:43 to make connection, it’s a whole different thing.
0:15:45 It’s just a completely different thing.
0:15:52 The second thing is people tend to use it as a one-shot like a search engine.
0:15:53 Ask a question, get an answer.
0:15:59 But what it’s already good at is a protracted dialogue back and forth.
0:16:05 So I had a pump in my house that stopped working, and I couldn’t find someone to service it.
0:16:06 I took a picture of it.
0:16:08 I put it up to Claw and I said, this isn’t working.
0:16:11 Work with me for the next 10 backs and forth.
0:16:13 Let’s figure this out.
0:16:16 And it would say, go downstairs and take a picture of this part.
0:16:17 All right, try this.
0:16:19 And we went back and forth and back and forth.
0:16:21 And it suggested something, and I said, that’s not going to work.
0:16:24 And we figured it out, and we fixed it.
0:16:33 That idea, the fact that Claude is already better at many medical diagnoses over time than a human.
0:16:40 And well, it should be, because it knows so much of the past of every single case,
0:16:44 not just the cases your doctor has seen, right?
0:16:51 If we’re willing to engage with that, for people who are knowledge workers, I think it’s a game changer.
0:16:59 And then the other thing I think people need to wake up to is, if you do average work for average pay,
0:17:01 AI is going to be able to do it cheaper than you.
0:17:03 For example, radiology.
0:17:11 Already, we can use AI to do a wrist x-ray, as well as a mediocre radiologist.
0:17:17 So, if we can do it instantly and for free, other than licensing, you’ve got some problems.
0:17:24 So, the opportunity is either get AI to work for you, or be prepared to work for AI.
0:17:34 What are your greatest concerns around AI, if any, or foregone conclusions about challenges in the future?
0:17:40 I think that Cory Doctorow’s work on inshittification is super important.
0:17:41 What was that word?
0:17:45 Oxford Dictionary, word of the year, two years ago, inshittification.
0:17:47 Okay.
0:17:55 Inshittification is what happens after a business that uses the network effect gets locked in
0:18:00 and decides to aggressively make things worse for its users to make more money.
0:18:07 And we could think of 400 examples right now, but we’re not going to do that, right?
0:18:09 Because you say, well, I can’t switch cable companies.
0:18:11 It’s just too much of a…
0:18:14 And the same thing is true for social networks and everything else.
0:18:22 That capitalism has built into it this doom loop that is getting faster and faster,
0:18:29 that says the race to the bottom pushes companies to mistreat the people they’ve locked in to make more money
0:18:31 because that’s what they get rewarded for.
0:18:39 And most things that the internet touches start as a miracle.
0:18:42 There are huge prizes for the early adopters.
0:18:51 And then soon, the desire to serve a different constituency kicks in and it gets worse.
0:18:55 And one of the things that makes it worse in a hurry is advertising.
0:19:03 So I’m really nervous that these organizations that have raised billions and billions and billions of dollars
0:19:10 are going to start shortcutting things to either get bigger or get more profitable faster.
0:19:14 And because we don’t know how they work, we have no clue,
0:19:19 because it’s going to be hard to switch because there aren’t going to be many competitors.
0:19:23 It often leads to just a yucky mess.
0:19:30 So I think that’s way more likely than a general artificial intelligence that takes over the world
0:19:31 and turns us all into paperclips.
0:19:34 I don’t think that’s going to happen anytime soon.
0:19:38 More likely just to have business incentive-driven gentrification.
0:19:41 Yeah, I would say that seems like a safer bet.
0:19:48 Well, Seth, are there any closing comments or challenges you’d like to issue to my listeners
0:19:51 as we begin to wind to a close?
0:19:56 Or anything that you’d like to add that I have managed to somehow dance around?
0:20:01 There’s nothing better than starting a Tim Ferriss podcast and nothing worse than ending one,
0:20:03 because you don’t know if it’s going to happen again anytime soon.
0:20:06 Yeah, the challenge is super simple.
0:20:14 The people who listen to your podcast have their hands on the levers, and they have influence,
0:20:19 and they have resources, and they don’t have to hustle for a nickel.
0:20:21 They can make things that really matter.
0:20:26 And so the challenge is, take a deep breath and say,
0:20:30 what can I build that the me of five years from now is going to say thanks?
0:20:33 Thanks for walking away from those sunk costs.
0:20:36 Thanks for ignoring those false proxies.
0:20:43 Thanks for asking uncomfortable questions in service of making things better.
0:20:49 Because that person, five years from now, they’re going to be here soon.
0:20:57 And it’s really great to pay the price and put in the work to become that person.
0:20:59 And today is a good day to start.
0:21:02 The best day to start.
0:21:14 Next up, L.A. Paul, Professor of Philosophy and Professor of Cognitive Science at Yale University
0:21:18 and author of Transformative Experience.
0:21:23 You can learn more about L.A. Paul at lapaw.org.
0:21:25 Vampires.
0:21:29 How do vampires fit into your life, and why do they fit into your writing?
0:21:30 Oh, vampires.
0:21:31 I love vampires.
0:21:33 So many ways they fit in.
0:21:37 So, my favorite thought experiment involves vampires,
0:21:40 because I like to use it to illustrate the concept of transformative experience.
0:21:42 Maybe just because I like vampires so much,
0:21:45 I think it’s an especially good way to kind of illustrate the concept.
0:21:47 And also, because it’s not a real life,
0:21:49 I don’t think vampires are real.
0:21:51 And the beautiful thing about a thought experiment
0:21:52 is you can design it the way that you want
0:21:55 to kind of illustrate the structure of a concept,
0:21:57 but then I also think that the structure of that concept
0:21:59 then fits to real-life cases.
0:22:00 So, my example.
0:22:01 I’m just going to tell you this.
0:22:02 Yeah, let’s do it.
0:22:04 So, the way that I think about this is I imagine,
0:22:07 or you imagine, I ask you to imagine,
0:22:11 traveling through some part of, you know,
0:22:13 on your summer vacations, traveling through some part of Europe,
0:22:15 and you decide to explore a castle.
0:22:17 You’re in Romania, let’s say,
0:22:18 and you go down to the dungeons,
0:22:19 and Dracula comes to you,
0:22:21 and he says,
0:22:24 I want to make you one of my own.
0:22:26 I’m going to give you a one-time-only chance.
0:22:28 You could become one of my followers.
0:22:30 It’ll be painless.
0:22:32 You’ll enjoy it, in fact.
0:22:34 But this is a one-time-only chance,
0:22:34 and it’s irreversible.
0:22:36 And then he says,
0:22:38 go back to your Airbnb
0:22:41 and think about it until midnight,
0:22:43 and if you choose to accept my offer,
0:22:43 leave your window open.
0:22:45 And if you choose to decline it,
0:22:48 leave your window shut and leave and never come back.
0:22:51 So, I see this as a really interesting possibility
0:22:53 because, you know, vampires are sexy.
0:22:54 They look great in black.
0:22:57 They have amazing powers.
0:22:59 They probably have different kinds of sense perception.
0:23:00 Yeah, virtually.
0:23:04 I mean, as long as they stay away from villagers with stakes and things like that.
0:23:05 Yeah, exactly.
0:23:08 Like, there are certain obstacles,
0:23:09 but in general, yeah,
0:23:10 for all intents and purposes,
0:23:11 immortal.
0:23:13 And so, this seems pretty cool,
0:23:15 but they’re not human.
0:23:17 You’d have to exit the human race.
0:23:18 You have to sleep in a coffin.
0:23:21 You can’t enjoy the sunshine anymore,
0:23:23 and you have to drink blood.
0:23:25 And I try to separate out some of the ethical questions.
0:23:27 So, let’s say it’s artificial blood
0:23:29 or the blood of humanely raised farm animals
0:23:30 or something like that.
0:23:31 Still, right now,
0:23:32 as a human, I think there’s something…
0:23:32 Cough is pretty cozy.
0:23:34 It’s got some memory for a moment.
0:23:35 I mean, reasonably.
0:23:35 I don’t know.
0:23:36 I mean, I don’t know.
0:23:37 I’m not…
0:23:38 Okay, it’s lined with satin,
0:23:41 but it still might be a bit hard for my mattress preferences.
0:23:43 But the idea is that these things,
0:23:44 while they seem interesting,
0:23:46 they also seem kind of alien, right?
0:23:48 And I think in particular,
0:23:50 not only will you have to drink blood,
0:23:52 but you will love the taste of it.
0:23:53 Like, you will thirst for it, right?
0:23:55 And even ethical vampires
0:23:56 have to kind of keep themselves
0:23:57 from, like, sucking the blood
0:23:59 of their human compatriots.
0:24:01 So, that’s quite alien.
0:24:04 And I wanted to kind of bring out
0:24:06 how the possibility of becoming
0:24:08 another kind of individual
0:24:10 can seem incredibly alien.
0:24:11 Because, obviously,
0:24:13 I take it that most of us
0:24:15 don’t enjoy or thirst after
0:24:16 the taste of blood
0:24:18 or think about the different varietals,
0:24:19 like it’d be some kind of fancy wine.
0:24:21 But if you became a vampire,
0:24:21 you would.
0:24:22 Okay.
0:24:25 So, the way that I think about it,
0:24:26 then, is I continue the story
0:24:27 and it’s like, okay,
0:24:28 so you rush back to your Airbnb
0:24:30 and you start calling people
0:24:31 or texting them,
0:24:32 telling you about what happened to you,
0:24:33 and you find out
0:24:34 that a bunch of your friends
0:24:35 have already become vampires.
0:24:37 So, then, you immediately
0:24:38 want to find out,
0:24:38 well, wait,
0:24:39 tell me about what it’s like.
0:24:41 Like, what’s it like to be a vampire?
0:24:41 Do you like it?
0:24:42 Should I do it?
0:24:43 And they tell you
0:24:44 that they love it
0:24:45 and it’s fabulous
0:24:46 and it’s totally incredible,
0:24:47 but they also tell you
0:24:49 you can’t possibly understand
0:24:50 what it’s like
0:24:52 to be a vampire
0:24:53 as a mere human.
0:24:55 They say life has meaning,
0:24:56 it has a kind of purpose
0:24:57 that, you know,
0:24:57 is exquisite,
0:24:59 but until you become a vampire,
0:25:00 you can’t possibly understand it.
0:25:02 You lack the capacity.
0:25:03 So, you’re like,
0:25:04 okay, thanks.
0:25:04 So, what do I do?
0:25:06 Because if you can’t possibly understand
0:25:07 what it’s like to be a vampire,
0:25:10 then you either have to do it
0:25:11 just because all of your friends do it
0:25:12 and they say it’s great
0:25:13 and they tell you
0:25:14 they think it would be great for you,
0:25:15 but there’s no way
0:25:17 you can actually kind of conceive
0:25:19 of what it would be like to do that.
0:25:22 And I’m sure it hasn’t escaped your thought.
0:25:24 It certainly didn’t escape my imaginings
0:25:25 that, well, maybe there’s something
0:25:26 about being a vampire
0:25:28 that makes you really happy
0:25:29 to be a vampire.
0:25:30 So, maybe, like,
0:25:32 when you become this other species,
0:25:32 there’s some kind of
0:25:34 biological evolutionary thing
0:25:35 that makes you really glad
0:25:35 that you’re a vampire.
0:25:37 Right.
0:25:39 So, it’s not even clear
0:25:40 what their testimony applies.
0:25:40 Okay.
0:25:41 So, that’s my example
0:25:43 and my favorite application
0:25:44 is to becoming a parent
0:25:46 because speaking as someone
0:25:48 who wasn’t quite clear
0:25:48 about whether they wanted
0:25:50 to have children,
0:25:51 I have two children
0:25:52 and I love them very much
0:25:52 and I’m very happy,
0:25:54 but there’s something
0:25:55 about becoming a parent
0:25:56 that makes you,
0:25:57 like, producing the child
0:25:58 that you actually produce
0:25:59 that makes you very,
0:26:01 I mean, I love my children.
0:26:02 I wouldn’t exchange them
0:26:02 for anything else
0:26:03 in the world.
0:26:04 You know, if I’d gotten
0:26:05 pregnant a month later,
0:26:05 I would have loved
0:26:06 that child too,
0:26:07 but there’s no way
0:26:08 that I would exchange
0:26:08 my current child
0:26:09 for the child I could have had.
0:26:11 You just get incredibly
0:26:12 attached to these children
0:26:14 in a completely legitimate way
0:26:15 and, you know,
0:26:16 you would never change
0:26:17 what you’ve done
0:26:18 and that’s awfully like
0:26:19 the testimony
0:26:20 that you get from vampires.
0:26:21 Okay.
0:26:23 So, I think, you know,
0:26:23 also you don’t get, you know,
0:26:24 you stay up a lot at night, right?
0:26:27 There are many similarities.
0:26:29 Vampires kind of illustrate
0:26:30 the possibility of undergoing
0:26:32 a transformative experience,
0:26:33 like a life-changing,
0:26:34 something that’s life-changing,
0:26:36 but also where you change
0:26:37 the kind of mind you have
0:26:38 in a certain way
0:26:39 or what you care about most
0:26:39 in a certain way
0:26:41 that means that
0:26:42 you would make yourself
0:26:43 into a kind of alien
0:26:44 version of yourself,
0:26:46 like someone who’s alien
0:26:46 to you now
0:26:47 and who you might not
0:26:48 even want to be now,
0:26:50 even if once you become
0:26:51 that person
0:26:52 or that version of yourself,
0:26:53 you’re super happy.
0:26:55 If I had some kind
0:26:55 of modal scope
0:26:56 and I could look
0:26:57 at my future self,
0:26:58 I could have looked
0:26:58 at my future self
0:26:59 before I decided
0:27:00 I wanted to have kids.
0:27:02 I got up at 4 a.m.
0:27:04 every day for years
0:27:05 to write
0:27:06 before my children woke up.
0:27:07 I mean,
0:27:09 no one ever told me
0:27:09 that that was something
0:27:10 I would want to do
0:27:11 and if they had told me,
0:27:12 I would have denied it strenuously
0:27:14 because I could barely get up
0:27:15 before new
0:27:16 when I was a graduate student
0:27:17 and I did it willingly.
0:27:18 Something happened.
0:27:19 I was clearly a victim
0:27:20 of some kind
0:27:20 of Stockholm syndrome.
0:27:21 So,
0:27:23 the thought is
0:27:23 that
0:27:25 when you face
0:27:25 a certain kind
0:27:26 of transformative experience
0:27:27 and I don’t think
0:27:28 it’s just having a child,
0:27:28 I think,
0:27:29 like deciding to go to war
0:27:31 or maybe moving
0:27:32 to an entirely different country,
0:27:34 maybe getting some kind of,
0:27:35 if you’re diagnosed
0:27:36 with some kind of disease
0:27:36 and getting some kind
0:27:37 of like radically
0:27:38 experimental treatment,
0:27:39 there are lots of things
0:27:40 that can count
0:27:41 as transformative
0:27:42 but if you don’t know
0:27:43 what it’s going to be like
0:27:44 on the other side
0:27:45 of that experience
0:27:46 and you know
0:27:47 it’s going to make you
0:27:48 into a version of yourself
0:27:49 that right now
0:27:50 you find alien,
0:27:50 I don’t know
0:27:51 how we’re supposed
0:27:52 to make that decision
0:27:52 if it’s up to us.
0:27:54 We can’t use
0:27:56 the ordinary models
0:27:56 that we use
0:27:57 for rational decision making
0:27:58 because those assume
0:27:59 that you can
0:28:00 see through
0:28:01 the options
0:28:02 to assign them value
0:28:03 and model them
0:28:04 for yourself
0:28:05 and choose in a way
0:28:06 that’s going to
0:28:07 as you say,
0:28:08 we say it in a technical way,
0:28:09 maximize your expected value
0:28:11 and if you can’t assign value
0:28:12 and you can’t really understand
0:28:12 what it’s like
0:28:13 to be this kind of a self
0:28:14 then that procedure
0:28:15 just doesn’t work.
0:28:17 Tell me if I’m off base here
0:28:19 but also fundamentally
0:28:20 even if you’re trying
0:28:21 to calculate
0:28:22 or maximize
0:28:23 your expected value
0:28:25 and assign
0:28:25 these different values
0:28:26 you’re doing it
0:28:28 from the perspective
0:28:29 of your current
0:28:31 version of yourself
0:28:32 and your current preferences
0:28:34 and after you become
0:28:34 a vampire
0:28:35 or after you have a kid
0:28:37 you may be a different person
0:28:38 with different preferences
0:28:39 so do you make the decision
0:28:40 based on
0:28:41 the preferences
0:28:42 of your current self
0:28:43 or the preferences
0:28:45 of your expected future self?
0:28:46 There’s a way of capturing
0:28:47 the puzzle
0:28:48 as you said
0:28:49 so given
0:28:50 the fact that
0:28:51 these are new kinds
0:28:52 of experiences
0:28:53 so a kind of experience
0:28:53 you’ve never had before
0:28:55 and I compare this
0:28:55 to like
0:28:57 Mary
0:28:57 growing up
0:28:58 in a black and white room
0:28:59 and seeing color
0:29:00 for the first time
0:29:01 or Thomas Nagel
0:29:02 talking about like
0:29:03 you can’t understand
0:29:04 like for a bat
0:29:04 what it’s like
0:29:05 for a bat to be a bat.
0:29:07 Yeah, exactly.
0:29:08 So there are these like
0:29:09 new kinds of experiences
0:29:11 that are just
0:29:12 very different
0:29:13 from any kind of experience
0:29:13 we’ve had before
0:29:14 and so that means
0:29:15 there’s just a sense
0:29:15 in which we can’t
0:29:16 kind of from the inside
0:29:17 kind of imagine
0:29:18 what they’re like
0:29:19 even if someone can describe
0:29:20 try to describe to me
0:29:20 like what it’s like
0:29:21 to see red
0:29:22 and you see the problem
0:29:23 right away
0:29:23 we just don’t
0:29:24 like language
0:29:25 just kind of gives out
0:29:26 if I haven’t seen red before
0:29:28 I have no color vision.
0:29:29 Okay, so there’s a sense
0:29:30 in which we kind of
0:29:30 can’t see through
0:29:31 a certain kind of veil
0:29:33 and across that veil
0:29:35 the self that we’re going to be
0:29:37 the kind of person
0:29:37 that you’re going to realize
0:29:38 is just like
0:29:39 really different
0:29:41 so you can’t just assume
0:29:41 you’re going to be
0:29:42 basically the same
0:29:43 this puts us
0:29:44 into the situation
0:29:45 where you’re making a choice
0:29:47 for your future self
0:29:49 and that future self
0:29:50 might have preferences
0:29:50 that are super different
0:29:52 from your current self
0:29:54 and by definition
0:29:54 and this breaks
0:29:55 so now here’s a little
0:29:56 technical bit
0:29:56 so we talked about
0:29:57 the intuitive idea
0:29:59 I find it easy to understand
0:30:00 when I think about
0:30:01 someone who doesn’t
0:30:02 maybe doesn’t want
0:30:02 to have a child
0:30:03 or really is unsure
0:30:05 and they know
0:30:05 that if they choose
0:30:06 to have a child
0:30:06 they’re going to be
0:30:07 super happy with that result
0:30:08 but they don’t trust
0:30:09 the fact that
0:30:10 in virtue of like
0:30:11 becoming a parent
0:30:12 it’s going to kind of
0:30:13 rewire them
0:30:13 in their preferences
0:30:14 in a certain way
0:30:15 right
0:30:16 sure I’ll be really happy
0:30:16 but I don’t know
0:30:17 if I want to be that self
0:30:18 right now
0:30:19 given who I am now
0:30:21 and I can’t understand
0:30:22 in a really deep way
0:30:24 what it’s going to be like
0:30:25 to have that child
0:30:26 so I have to kind of
0:30:26 you know
0:30:28 leap over the abyss
0:30:29 or leap into the abyss
0:30:29 I guess
0:30:30 if I want to do it
0:30:32 so if you find yourself
0:30:34 in that situation
0:30:35 what you’re confronting
0:30:37 involves what I describe
0:30:38 as a violation
0:30:40 of act state independence
0:30:40 okay
0:30:42 so here’s the technical part
0:30:43 you’ve got the intuitive idea
0:30:45 act state independence
0:30:47 involves very roughly
0:30:48 a distinction between
0:30:50 the act that you’re performing
0:30:52 and the state that you’re in
0:30:53 or that’s how I’m going
0:30:54 to interpret it here
0:30:54 there are different ways
0:30:55 to interpret it
0:30:56 but this is the way
0:30:56 to do it here
0:30:58 and so normally
0:31:00 when you’re confronted with
0:31:01 oh do I want to do something
0:31:01 do I want to try
0:31:02 this kind of ice cream
0:31:03 or do I want to
0:31:04 have this cup of coffee
0:31:06 you don’t change
0:31:07 in the process of trying it
0:31:09 so after you do it
0:31:09 you can kind of assess
0:31:10 oh I liked it
0:31:11 oh it was good
0:31:11 that’s meaningful
0:31:12 to you beforehand
0:31:13 because you know
0:31:14 that you’re going to
0:31:15 stay constant
0:31:17 through the change
0:31:17 in your circumstances
0:31:18 like tasting
0:31:19 the new kind of ice cream
0:31:21 but in this case
0:31:22 having the experience
0:31:23 let’s say tasting
0:31:24 the new kind of ice cream
0:31:24 was going to like
0:31:26 rework your flavor profile
0:31:27 so that you would just
0:31:27 like a whole bunch
0:31:28 of different things
0:31:29 after that
0:31:30 well that
0:31:31 changes the state
0:31:32 that you’re in
0:31:33 at the same time
0:31:33 and so your act
0:31:34 and your state
0:31:35 are not independent
0:31:37 and if you break that
0:31:38 that’s an axiom
0:31:40 for rational choice theory
0:31:41 that has to be
0:31:42 a foundational element
0:31:42 of the model
0:31:44 to make straightforward inferences
0:31:45 there are all kinds
0:31:45 of fancy things
0:31:46 you have to do
0:31:46 if that breaks
0:31:48 and these cases
0:31:49 of transformative experience
0:31:50 and decision making
0:31:51 are precisely cases
0:31:51 in which that breaks
0:31:57 last but not least
0:31:59 Dr. Keith Barr
0:32:01 a professor of physiology
0:32:02 and membrane biology
0:32:03 at the University
0:32:04 of California Davis
0:32:05 and an expert
0:32:06 in strength
0:32:07 and flexibility
0:32:10 how soon
0:32:11 after surgery
0:32:12 and you can choose
0:32:13 your surgery
0:32:14 ACL
0:32:15 take your pick
0:32:16 dealer’s choice
0:32:18 would you start
0:32:18 loading
0:32:20 the site
0:32:21 of injury
0:32:21 slash repair
0:32:23 so we do it
0:32:24 the next day
0:32:25 so
0:32:27 we’ve had to have
0:32:28 success in order
0:32:29 for us to get there
0:32:30 because the first time
0:32:31 we did this
0:32:32 with a rugby player
0:32:33 the surgeon was like
0:32:35 six weeks without loading
0:32:35 and we were like
0:32:36 let’s load tomorrow
0:32:38 and so we agreed
0:32:39 that we would do it
0:32:39 at like seven
0:32:40 to nine days
0:32:41 and that player
0:32:42 got back
0:32:43 fully a month
0:32:44 faster than
0:32:45 that surgeon
0:32:45 had ever seen
0:32:46 a player get back
0:32:46 from that injury
0:32:47 and so
0:32:48 that surgeon
0:32:49 is now
0:32:50 much more willing
0:32:50 to do it
0:32:51 at two days
0:32:52 after injury
0:32:53 because of that
0:32:54 if you look
0:32:55 at general populations
0:32:56 Michael Kerr
0:32:57 who I think
0:32:57 is the world’s
0:32:58 best sports medicine
0:32:59 doctor
0:33:01 for musculoskeletal injuries
0:33:01 how do you spell
0:33:02 that last name
0:33:05 it’s K-J-A-E-R
0:33:06 he’s in Copenhagen
0:33:06 so he’s
0:33:07 sorry
0:33:07 didn’t realize
0:33:08 that was going
0:33:08 to be that hard
0:33:09 Cher
0:33:11 It’s sheer
0:33:13 but he allows
0:33:14 those of us
0:33:15 who are language deficient
0:33:16 to call him care
0:33:17 but he did
0:33:18 a beautiful study
0:33:18 with one of his
0:33:20 trainees Monica
0:33:21 and what she did
0:33:22 is she took
0:33:23 a bunch of his patients
0:33:24 that had injuries
0:33:24 and she either
0:33:25 had them load
0:33:26 two days after injury
0:33:27 or nine days
0:33:28 after injury
0:33:29 and then she followed
0:33:30 them for when they
0:33:31 got back to sport
0:33:32 and what she found
0:33:32 is the ones
0:33:33 that they loaded
0:33:33 at day two
0:33:34 after the injury
0:33:35 they got back
0:33:36 25% faster
0:33:36 than the ones
0:33:37 that they loaded
0:33:37 at nine days
0:33:38 That’s incredible
0:33:39 That’s typical
0:33:40 so as you said
0:33:41 before
0:33:41 what is our
0:33:42 standard of care
0:33:43 our standard of care
0:33:44 is rice
0:33:45 okay
0:33:46 and so
0:33:47 I’m going to go
0:33:47 a step further
0:33:48 if you go
0:33:49 and you sprain your ankle
0:33:50 and you go to the doctor
0:33:52 very good doctor
0:33:52 very well meaning
0:33:53 they’re going to
0:33:53 give you a boot
0:33:56 and what is a boot
0:33:57 so I told you
0:33:59 that a scar forms
0:33:59 when we get
0:34:00 stress shielding
0:34:01 what a boot is
0:34:02 it is
0:34:04 a mechanical
0:34:05 stress shielder
0:34:06 what it’s designed
0:34:06 to do
0:34:07 is to take
0:34:07 the stress
0:34:08 off the tissue
0:34:09 you’ve injured
0:34:10 if I’ve told you
0:34:11 that the thing
0:34:12 that’s going to
0:34:12 cause that tissue
0:34:13 to get a scar
0:34:13 is that you
0:34:14 take off the tension
0:34:16 what I’ve just done
0:34:17 is I’ve made
0:34:18 the problem worse
0:34:21 I always tell people
0:34:22 that the first
0:34:22 recorded
0:34:24 immobilizer
0:34:25 for an ankle
0:34:26 or a leg
0:34:26 is from
0:34:28 Egyptian hieroglyphs
0:34:28 where they showed
0:34:28 pictures
0:34:30 4,500 years ago
0:34:33 if I took you
0:34:34 and you said
0:34:35 you had cancer
0:34:35 you would not
0:34:36 want a treatment
0:34:37 that was developed
0:34:39 4,500 years ago
0:34:40 you would hope
0:34:41 that something new
0:34:42 has been developed
0:34:43 in the last
0:34:44 4,500 years
0:34:46 that is where we are
0:34:47 for our orthopedic
0:34:48 situations
0:34:49 I understand
0:34:50 that you cannot
0:34:51 put full load
0:34:52 on a surgical repair
0:34:53 immediately
0:34:54 but what you can do
0:34:56 is you can take it out
0:34:57 at the beginning
0:34:57 of the day
0:34:59 you can remove
0:34:59 it from the boot
0:35:00 and I can do
0:35:02 some isometric loads
0:35:02 with low jerk
0:35:03 so I’m going to
0:35:04 develop force slowly
0:35:06 I am going to make sure
0:35:07 that there’s zero pain
0:35:08 and I am going to
0:35:08 hold that
0:35:09 and then I’m going to
0:35:11 let that off slowly
0:35:12 and I’m going to do that
0:35:13 4 times
0:35:13 30 seconds
0:35:14 now I’ve given load
0:35:16 and now I can put it
0:35:17 back into that boot
0:35:18 stress shield it
0:35:19 I’m going to take
0:35:20 the boot off at night
0:35:20 I’m going to do it again
0:35:22 just doing that
0:35:23 I’m getting those
0:35:24 two loads
0:35:25 in this case
0:35:26 the Achilles tendon
0:35:26 that we’ve ruptured
0:35:28 now what I’ve done
0:35:29 is I’ve accelerated
0:35:30 my return to activity
0:35:31 massively
0:35:32 again
0:35:33 the key is
0:35:35 we’re not trying to be
0:35:36 I’m the strongest
0:35:37 in the world
0:35:38 we’re trying to say
0:35:40 I’m putting a little bit
0:35:41 of load through that
0:35:42 that is the key
0:35:44 is that you don’t get
0:35:44 all caught up
0:35:46 in the machismo of it
0:35:46 and you just say
0:35:48 I just want to feel
0:35:48 tension
0:35:50 across the area
0:35:51 what we say is
0:35:52 if you can feel
0:35:53 an ice pick
0:35:53 that means there’s
0:35:54 a very specific
0:35:56 spot that hurts
0:35:56 stop
0:35:58 if I feel
0:35:59 like a warm
0:36:00 burning area
0:36:00 like I’m
0:36:01 muscle soreness
0:36:02 after exercising
0:36:04 that’s totally okay
0:36:05 that kind of soreness
0:36:07 not point specific pain
0:36:08 that’s okay
0:36:09 what we’re doing
0:36:11 add the load slowly
0:36:12 hold it
0:36:13 take the load off slowly
0:36:15 now what we can do
0:36:16 is we can get those
0:36:17 individuals back
0:36:18 much much much faster
0:36:25 and now here are the
0:36:26 bios for all the guests
0:36:28 my guest who I’ve
0:36:28 wanted to interview
0:36:29 for years is
0:36:31 Brandon Sanderson
0:36:32 he is the number one
0:36:32 New York Times
0:36:33 best-selling author
0:36:34 of the Stormlight
0:36:35 Archives series
0:36:36 and the Mistborn
0:36:37 Saga
0:36:38 the middle grade series
0:36:39 Alcatraz versus
0:36:40 the Evil Librarians
0:36:41 and the young adult
0:36:41 novels
0:36:42 The Rhythmatist
0:36:43 The Reckoners
0:36:44 Trilogy
0:36:45 and the Skyward
0:36:45 series
0:36:46 he has sold
0:36:47 more than 40 million
0:36:49 books in 35 languages
0:36:51 he has architected
0:36:54 40 million plus dollar
0:36:55 Kickstarter campaigns
0:36:56 and he is a four-time
0:36:57 nominee for the Hugo
0:36:58 Awards
0:36:59 winning in 2013
0:37:00 for his novella
0:37:02 The Emperor’s Soul
0:37:03 that same year
0:37:04 he was chosen
0:37:04 to complete
0:37:05 Robert Jordan’s
0:37:06 The Wheel of Time
0:37:06 series
0:37:07 which is a big
0:37:08 big deal
0:37:09 culminating in
0:37:10 A Memory of Light
0:37:11 Brandon co-hosts
0:37:12 with fellow author
0:37:13 Dan Wells
0:37:13 the popular
0:37:14 Intentionally Blank
0:37:15 podcast
0:37:16 and teaches
0:37:17 creative writing
0:37:18 at Brigham Young
0:37:18 University
0:37:19 We did this one
0:37:20 in person
0:37:21 which made
0:37:22 all the difference
0:37:23 in Brandon’s
0:37:24 massive cavernous
0:37:25 offices
0:37:26 right next to
0:37:27 his warehouse
0:37:28 it was
0:37:29 a hell of a ride
0:37:30 and we covered
0:37:31 a lot of
0:37:32 ground
0:37:33 and a lot
0:37:34 of really
0:37:34 nitty gritty
0:37:36 tactical advice
0:37:37 related to
0:37:38 fiction
0:37:39 business
0:37:40 publishing
0:37:41 innovating
0:37:42 across the board
0:37:43 how he architected
0:37:44 his record-breaking
0:37:45 kickstarter
0:37:46 campaign
0:37:47 and much
0:37:47 much more
0:37:48 you can find
0:37:49 him at
0:37:51 brandonsanderson.com
0:37:51 that’s
0:37:53 b-r-a-n-d-o-n
0:37:54 sanderson.com
0:37:55 and you can find
0:37:56 him on
0:37:56 x-instagram
0:37:57 and youtube
0:37:57 at
0:37:58 brand
0:37:59 sanderson
0:37:59 that’s
0:38:00 b-r-a-n-d
0:38:01 sanderson
0:38:02 and I definitely
0:38:03 recommend checking
0:38:03 out all of
0:38:03 those
0:38:08 my guest
0:38:09 today
0:38:10 is a fan
0:38:10 favorite
0:38:11 it is
0:38:11 Seth
0:38:11 Godin
0:38:11 the one
0:38:12 and only
0:38:12 he is the
0:38:13 author of
0:38:13 21
0:38:14 internationally
0:38:15 best-selling
0:38:15 books
0:38:16 translated into
0:38:16 more than
0:38:17 35 languages
0:38:18 including
0:38:18 linchpin
0:38:19 tribes
0:38:20 the dip
0:38:20 and purple
0:38:21 cow
0:38:22 his latest
0:38:22 book
0:38:23 this is
0:38:24 strategy
0:38:25 really caught
0:38:26 my attention
0:38:27 and it
0:38:27 offers a
0:38:28 fresh lens
0:38:28 on how
0:38:28 we can
0:38:29 make bold
0:38:29 decisions
0:38:30 embrace
0:38:30 change
0:38:31 and navigate
0:38:32 a complex
0:38:32 rapidly
0:38:33 evolving
0:38:33 world
0:38:34 we cover
0:38:34 a ton
0:38:34 of
0:38:35 ground
0:38:36 including
0:38:36 sets of
0:38:37 questions
0:38:37 that you
0:38:38 can use
0:38:39 to catalyze
0:38:40 personal and
0:38:40 professional
0:38:41 growth
0:38:43 maxims
0:38:43 different
0:38:43 concepts
0:38:44 to unpack
0:38:45 that can
0:38:46 productively
0:38:47 shake
0:38:47 the snow
0:38:48 globe
0:38:48 of your
0:38:48 mind
0:38:49 so that
0:38:49 you can
0:38:49 settle
0:38:50 on
0:38:50 new
0:38:51 realizations
0:38:51 different
0:38:52 ways
0:38:53 to create
0:38:53 competitive
0:38:54 advantage
0:38:54 in an
0:38:55 increasingly
0:38:55 crowded
0:38:56 world
0:38:57 Seth
0:38:57 is also
0:38:57 the
0:38:57 founder
0:38:58 of the
0:38:58 alt
0:38:58 MBA
0:38:59 and
0:38:59 the
0:38:59 akimbo
0:39:00 workshops
0:39:01 transformative
0:39:01 online
0:39:02 programs
0:39:02 that have
0:39:02 helped
0:39:03 thousands
0:39:03 of people
0:39:03 take their
0:39:04 work to
0:39:04 the next
0:39:04 level
0:39:05 his blog
0:39:07 Seths.blog
0:39:10 is one of
0:39:10 the most
0:39:10 widely read
0:39:11 in the world
0:39:12 and has
0:39:12 been such
0:39:13 for a
0:39:14 very long
0:39:14 time
0:39:15 Seth is
0:39:16 also the
0:39:16 creator
0:39:17 of the
0:39:17 Carbon
0:39:18 Almanac
0:39:18 a global
0:39:19 initiative
0:39:19 focused on
0:39:20 climate
0:39:20 action
0:39:21 this is a
0:39:22 very practical
0:39:22 episode
0:39:24 as all
0:39:24 of Seth’s
0:39:24 are
0:39:25 on this
0:39:26 podcast
0:39:27 and I’ll
0:39:27 leave it
0:39:28 at that
0:39:32 my guest
0:39:33 today is
0:39:33 L.A.
0:39:34 Paul
0:39:35 L.A.
0:39:35 Paul is
0:39:35 the
0:39:36 Millstone
0:39:36 family
0:39:36 professor
0:39:37 of
0:39:37 philosophy
0:39:38 and
0:39:38 professor
0:39:38 of
0:39:39 cognitive
0:39:39 science
0:39:39 at
0:39:40 Yale
0:39:40 University
0:39:41 where she
0:39:42 leads the
0:39:42 self and
0:39:43 society
0:39:43 initiative
0:39:44 for the
0:39:44 Wu
0:39:45 Institute
0:39:46 her research
0:39:47 explores
0:39:47 questions about
0:39:48 the nature
0:39:48 of the
0:39:48 self and
0:39:49 decision
0:39:49 making
0:39:49 and the
0:39:50 metaphysics
0:39:50 and cognitive
0:39:51 science of
0:39:51 time
0:39:53 cause and
0:39:53 experience
0:39:54 now that’s a
0:39:54 mouthful but
0:39:55 we also get
0:39:56 into vampire
0:39:56 thought
0:39:57 experiments
0:39:58 how to
0:39:59 decide or
0:39:59 how to
0:39:59 think about
0:40:00 deciding
0:40:01 whether or
0:40:01 not to
0:40:01 have a
0:40:02 kid
0:40:02 that is
0:40:03 children
0:40:04 and many
0:40:05 other things
0:40:05 you can
0:40:06 apply to
0:40:06 your own
0:40:07 lives
0:40:08 L.A.
0:40:08 Paul is
0:40:08 also the
0:40:09 recipient of
0:40:10 fellowships from
0:40:10 the Guggenheim
0:40:11 Foundation
0:40:11 the National
0:40:12 Humanities
0:40:12 Center
0:40:13 and the
0:40:13 Australian
0:40:13 National
0:40:14 University
0:40:15 she is the
0:40:15 author of
0:40:16 transformative
0:40:17 experience
0:40:17 that’s how I
0:40:18 was introduced
0:40:18 to her work
0:40:19 and co-author of
0:40:20 causation
0:40:21 a user’s guide
0:40:21 which was
0:40:22 awarded the
0:40:22 American
0:40:23 philosophical
0:40:24 association
0:40:24 Sanders
0:40:25 book prize
0:40:26 her work on
0:40:27 transformative
0:40:27 experience has
0:40:28 been covered
0:40:28 by the
0:40:28 New York
0:40:28 Times
0:40:29 Wall Street
0:40:29 Journal
0:40:30 The Guardian
0:40:31 NPR
0:40:31 and the
0:40:31 BBC
0:40:32 among others
0:40:33 and in
0:40:33 2024
0:40:34 she was
0:40:35 profiled by
0:40:35 The New
0:40:36 Yorker
0:40:36 which is
0:40:36 also an
0:40:37 amazing read
0:40:37 that I
0:40:38 recommend
0:40:38 she’s
0:40:39 currently
0:40:39 working on
0:40:39 a book
0:40:40 about
0:40:40 self
0:40:40 construction
0:40:41 transformative
0:40:42 experience
0:40:42 humility
0:40:43 and fear
0:40:44 of mental
0:40:45 corruption
0:40:46 fundamentally
0:40:46 this conversation
0:40:47 focuses on
0:40:49 how you can
0:40:50 make decisions
0:40:51 or think about
0:40:51 making decisions
0:40:52 where the
0:40:53 person you are
0:40:54 now is not
0:40:54 the same
0:40:54 person you
0:40:56 are afterwards
0:40:57 and the
0:40:59 most resonant
0:41:00 example of
0:41:00 that is
0:41:01 deciding
0:41:01 whether or
0:41:02 not to
0:41:02 have
0:41:03 children
0:41:08 my
0:41:08 guest
0:41:08 today
0:41:09 is
0:41:09 Dr.
0:41:09 Keith
0:41:10 Barr
0:41:10 he
0:41:11 is
0:41:11 a
0:41:11 professor
0:41:12 at the
0:41:12 University
0:41:12 of
0:41:13 California
0:41:13 Davis
0:41:13 in the
0:41:14 Department
0:41:14 of
0:41:14 Physiology
0:41:15 and
0:41:16 Membrane
0:41:16 Biology
0:41:17 we get
0:41:17 into
0:41:18 so many
0:41:19 facets
0:41:20 of exercise
0:41:21 what you
0:41:21 can use
0:41:21 today
0:41:23 that is
0:41:23 counterintuitive
0:41:25 I
0:41:26 had my
0:41:26 mind
0:41:26 blown
0:41:26 I took
0:41:27 so many
0:41:27 notes
0:41:28 we talked
0:41:28 about
0:41:29 isometric
0:41:30 exercise
0:41:30 for tendon
0:41:31 health
0:41:32 optimizing
0:41:32 different
0:41:33 protocols
0:41:34 debunking
0:41:34 on some
0:41:34 level
0:41:35 eccentric
0:41:36 training
0:41:36 specifically
0:41:37 for connective
0:41:37 tissue
0:41:39 how to load
0:41:39 post injury
0:41:40 or surgery
0:41:40 collagen
0:41:41 supplementation
0:41:42 things like
0:41:43 BPC 157
0:41:44 pharmaceutical
0:41:45 impacts on
0:41:46 tendons
0:41:46 estrogen’s
0:41:47 role
0:41:48 in tendon
0:41:48 health
0:41:49 and strength
0:41:50 mitochondria
0:41:50 ketogenic
0:41:51 diet
0:41:51 longevity
0:41:52 inflammation
0:41:53 and taking
0:41:54 a balanced
0:41:54 perspective
0:41:55 on all
0:41:55 of these
0:41:55 things
0:41:55 how do
0:41:56 you use
0:41:56 them
0:41:56 we get
0:41:56 into
0:41:57 exact
0:41:58 training
0:41:58 protocols
0:41:59 that rock
0:41:59 climbers
0:42:00 use
0:42:01 it is
0:42:01 an amazing
0:42:02 episode
0:42:02 and that’s
0:42:03 not
0:42:03 because of
0:42:03 me
0:42:03 it’s
0:42:04 because
0:42:04 of
0:42:05 Keith
0:42:05 so let
0:42:05 me give
0:42:06 you a
0:42:06 quick bio
0:42:06 and then
0:42:07 we’ll hop
0:42:07 right into
0:42:07 it
0:42:08 during his
0:42:09 PhD studies
0:42:09 his research
0:42:10 revealed
0:42:10 that the
0:42:11 mechanical
0:42:11 strain
0:42:12 on muscle
0:42:12 fibers
0:42:12 activates
0:42:13 the
0:42:13 mammalian
0:42:14 target
0:42:14 of
0:42:15 rapamycin
0:42:15 some of
0:42:16 you may
0:42:16 know
0:42:16 that
0:42:16 as
0:42:17 mTOR
0:42:18 signaling
0:42:18 pathway
0:42:18 a crucial
0:42:19 regulator
0:42:19 of
0:42:20 muscular
0:42:21 hypertrophy
0:42:21 or muscle
0:42:21 growth
0:42:22 so he knows
0:42:22 a lot
0:42:23 about muscle
0:42:23 growth
0:42:23 he’s been
0:42:24 a strength
0:42:24 training
0:42:24 coach
0:42:25 as well
0:42:26 subsequently
0:42:26 he studied
0:42:27 the molecular
0:42:27 dynamics
0:42:31 of
0:42:31 Dr.
0:42:32 John
0:42:32 Halazi
0:42:33 a legend
0:42:33 in the
0:42:33 field
0:42:33 of
0:42:34 exercise
0:42:34 physiology
0:42:35 considered
0:42:36 the father
0:42:36 of modern
0:42:37 exercise
0:42:38 biochemistry
0:42:39 building on
0:42:39 all of this
0:42:40 he conducted
0:42:40 research
0:42:41 into tendon
0:42:41 health
0:42:41 and the
0:42:42 potential
0:42:42 for
0:42:42 engineering
0:42:43 ligaments
0:42:44 that is
0:42:44 creating
0:42:45 ligaments
0:42:45 in the
0:42:46 lab
0:42:47 upon which
0:42:47 he can
0:42:47 test
0:42:48 all sorts
0:42:48 of
0:42:48 things
0:42:49 which
0:42:49 could
0:42:49 also
0:42:49 have
0:42:49 implications
0:42:50 for
0:42:50 treatment
0:42:50 and
0:42:51 recovery
0:42:51 from
0:42:51 injuries
0:42:52 Dr.
0:42:52 Barr
0:42:53 now runs
0:42:53 the
0:42:53 functional
0:42:54 molecular
0:42:55 biology
0:42:55 lab
0:42:55 at UC
0:42:56 Davis
0:42:56 his
0:42:56 lab’s
0:42:57 work
0:42:57 ranges
0:42:57 from
0:42:58 studying
0:42:58 molecular
0:42:59 changes
0:42:59 in
0:42:59 our
0:42:59 cells
0:42:59 to
0:43:00 conducting
0:43:00 studies
0:43:01 to
0:43:01 affect
0:43:01 real
0:43:02 world
0:43:02 improvements
0:43:02 and
0:43:03 people’s
0:43:03 health
0:43:04 longevity
0:43:04 and
0:43:04 quality
0:43:04 of
0:43:05 life
0:43:05 you can
0:43:06 find him
0:43:06 on
0:43:06 blue sky
0:43:07 as
0:43:08 muscle
0:43:08 science
0:43:09 you can
0:43:09 find him
0:43:09 on the
0:43:10 UC
0:43:10 Davis
0:43:10 website
0:43:10 we’ll
0:43:11 link
0:43:11 to
0:43:28 again
0:43:28 again
0:43:28 just
0:43:28 one
0:43:28 more
0:43:29 thing
0:43:29 before
0:43:29 you
0:43:29 take
0:43:30 off
0:43:30 and
0:43:30 that
0:43:30 is
0:43:31 five
0:43:31 bullet
0:43:32 Friday
0:43:33 would
0:43:33 you
0:43:33 enjoy
0:43:33 getting
0:43:34 a short
0:43:34 email
0:43:34 from me
0:43:34 every
0:43:35 Friday
0:43:35 that
0:43:35 provides
0:43:36 a little
0:43:36 fun
0:43:37 before
0:43:37 the
0:43:37 weekend
0:43:38 between
0:43:38 one
0:43:38 and a
0:43:39 half
0:43:39 and
0:43:39 two
0:43:39 million
0:43:39 people
0:43:40 subscribe
0:43:40 to my
0:43:41 free
0:43:41 newsletter
0:43:41 my
0:43:42 super
0:43:42 short
0:43:43 newsletter
0:43:43 called
0:43:43 five
0:43:44 bullet
0:43:44 Friday
0:43:44 easy
0:43:45 to
0:43:45 sign
0:43:45 up
0:43:45 easy
0:43:46 to
0:43:46 cancel
0:43:47 it
0:43:47 is
0:43:47 basically
0:43:48 a
0:43:48 half
0:43:49 page
0:43:49 that
0:43:49 I
0:43:49 send
0:43:50 out
0:43:50 every
0:43:51 Friday
0:44:05 to
0:44:05 get
0:44:06 sent
0:44:06 to
0:44:06 me
0:44:06 by
0:44:07 my
0:44:07 friends
0:44:07 including
0:44:07 a lot
0:44:08 of
0:44:08 podcast
0:44:09 guests
0:44:10 and
0:44:10 these
0:44:11 strange
0:44:11 esoteric
0:44:11 things
0:44:12 end up
0:44:12 in my
0:44:12 field
0:44:13 and
0:44:13 then
0:44:14 I
0:44:14 test
0:44:14 them
0:44:14 and
0:44:15 then
0:44:15 I
0:44:15 share
0:44:15 them
0:44:16 with
0:44:16 you
0:44:17 so
0:44:17 if
0:44:17 that
0:44:17 sounds
0:44:18 fun
0:44:18 again
0:44:19 it’s
0:44:19 very
0:44:19 short
0:44:20 a
0:44:20 little
0:44:20 tiny
0:44:20 bite
0:44:20 of
0:44:21 goodness
0:44:21 before
0:44:21 you
0:44:22 head
0:44:22 off
0:44:22 for
0:44:22 the
0:44:23 weekend
0:44:23 something
0:44:23 to
0:44:23 think
0:44:24 about
0:44:24 if
0:44:24 you’d
0:44:25 like
0:44:25 to
0:44:25 try
0:44:25 it
0:44:25 out
0:44:26 just
0:44:26 go to
0:44:26 tim.blog
0:44:27 slash
0:44:27 Friday
0:44:28 type that
0:44:28 into your
0:44:28 browser
0:44:30 tim.blog
0:44:30 slash
0:44:31 Friday
0:44:32 drop in your
0:44:32 email
0:44:32 and you’ll get
0:44:33 the very
0:44:33 next one
0:44:34 thanks for
0:44:34 listening

0:00:04 Hello, boys and girls, ladies and germs. This is Tim Ferriss, and welcome to another episode
0:00:09 of The Tim Ferriss Show, where it is my job, each interview, to deconstruct world-class
0:00:15 performers, to tease out the habits, routines, influences, and resources that you can apply
0:00:19 to your own lives from people from every discipline imaginable, ranging from entertainment
0:00:25 to the military to technology and beyond. Today, my guest is Ev Williams, and what a
0:00:30 story he has. Ev is the co-founder and chairman of Mosey, a new social network that helps
0:00:36 you connect in person with the people you care about most. Over the past 25 years, Ev has
0:00:41 co-founded several companies that have helped shape the modern internet, including Blogger,
0:00:46 Medium, and Twitter. Ev is also the co-founder of Obvious Ventures, an investment firm that
0:00:51 focuses on world-positive companies addressing major systemic problems. Ev grew up on a farm
0:00:57 in Clarks, Nebraska, has two sons, and lives mostly in the Bay Area. This particular episode,
0:01:05 this conversation was recorded live in Austin, Texas, at the Dignation relaunch. That’s Dignation.show
0:01:11 for the show itself, and that is where Dign.com was relaunched. It was recently acquired by its
0:01:17 original founder, my good friend Kevin Rose, and Reddit co-founder Alexis Ohanian, formerly
0:01:22 arch-nemeses, but they have joined forces and invited me along for all the fun and surprises
0:01:28 as they celebrated the relaunch. Go to Dign.com and sign up to get early access when the invites
0:01:36 go out. One more time, Dign.com, that’s D-I-G-G.com. You can find Mosey, that is Ev’s newest creation,
0:01:42 at Mosey.app. That’s available on iOS right now. You can find Obvious Ventures at Obvious.com,
0:01:49 and you can find him on Twitter. That is also known as X, at Ev, at E-V. We’re going to get
0:01:54 right into this wide-ranging conversation with just a few words first from the people who make
0:02:00 this podcast possible. I am always on the hunt for protein sources that don’t require sacrifices
0:02:06 in taste or nutrition. I don’t want to eat sawdust. I also don’t want a candy bar that’s disguised as a
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0:05:44 Hello, hello. Good Lord. Wow. I can’t see anything because there’s so many lights, but thank you for coming.
0:05:55 I’m Kevin Rose. Tonight is going to be a really fun night. A lot of surprises, a lot of fun. In 2004,
0:06:02 when I was first out here, I would pull up my cell phone and I would text a number, which was…
0:06:04 What number was it?
0:06:11 4444, which was for Twitter. And you would say, I’m going to be at this bar or this is what I’m eating,
0:06:16 which is basically what you would say back then. And people would show up and it was awesome.
0:06:24 So it is really cool to have this kind of throwback, this time, this new reboot in many ways.
0:06:34 And to kick it off, I have an old, old wooden friend, as an Anchorman reference, Tim Ferriss, who is here.
0:06:42 We were reminiscing on the old times. He had more hair back then. I had less gray hair.
0:06:49 And for Ev, we were texting things, not using apps. So Ev Williams, co-founder of Twitter and Tim Ferriss.
0:06:55 Hey, everybody. Hey, guys. Good evening.
0:07:01 Welcome to Austin. Beautiful, beautiful, warm Austin.
0:07:05 You guys ready for a fun night? I have my party pants on.
0:07:13 And it’s nostalgic to be here because the last time I was in this venue was probably 2007,
0:07:17 I think, for a Dignation event. May have been a little bit earlier.
0:07:20 Oh, Stubbs. Excuse me, Mohawk.
0:07:24 That’s my early-onset dementia kicking in yet again.
0:07:26 So we’re going to pretend that didn’t happen.
0:07:34 And we’re going to move on to discussing cutting-edge technology with Ev right here.
0:07:37 And I know the question you all want to ask, which is,
0:07:41 what is the past, present, and future of VHS?
0:07:46 And we’re going to begin with your history with VHS.
0:07:48 Great. Thanks, Tim.
0:07:49 Hey, everybody.
0:07:52 I don’t get asked about VHS enough these days.
0:07:53 In fact, I don’t even know what it stands for.
0:07:56 I think what Tim is referring to is my very first internet product.
0:07:57 That’s right.
0:08:04 Which was a video cassette that was about how to use the internet.
0:08:06 You watched it on your TV.
0:08:11 The year was 1994, folks.
0:08:15 This is, it wasn’t that odd for the time,
0:08:18 but how are you going to learn about computers on the computer when you don’t have the internet?
0:08:23 So I made a tape in my basement with my college buddies,
0:08:27 and that was my very first internet product.
0:08:34 It was two hours, basically, of me explaining how to FTP by terminal.
0:08:36 I think I talked about the web for about three minutes.
0:08:38 You know, there’s this new thing called the web.
0:08:43 So we’re talking Usenet, Gopher, that type of stuff.
0:08:45 Did it sell well?
0:08:45 Was it a bestseller?
0:08:54 I think we broke even on a very low budget production.
0:08:57 So you’re known for a lot of different things.
0:08:59 Blogger, Twitter, you now have Mosey.
0:09:02 And I wanted to ask you, because here we are in person.
0:09:04 How nice is that?
0:09:04 Remember COVID?
0:09:08 It’s easy to take things like this for granted.
0:09:11 And I wanted to talk about relationships,
0:09:21 I imagine how you think about relationships, cultivating relationships, using technology to enhance relationships may have changed over time.
0:09:25 Could you just walk us through, perhaps, that trajectory?
0:09:32 Yeah, we were talking earlier today, actually, about social media and social, how the word social has changed.
0:09:38 Remember when social used to mean, like, getting together in real life, getting to know people?
0:09:42 And now the social is just this catch-all word that kind of just means the internet.
0:09:50 That was, I think, an evolution that started in maybe Facebook days.
0:09:58 Facebook was actually, in the news feed, was, I think, a social media new format, really, because it was media from people you knew.
0:10:00 We borrowed from some of that for Twitter.
0:10:02 We also borrowed from blogs for Twitter.
0:10:05 But Twitter, we never saw as necessarily social.
0:10:08 I wasn’t very focused on social, personally.
0:10:15 I think that’s the somewhat ironic thing is that I come from a very small town in Nebraska, on the farm, didn’t know a lot of people.
0:10:19 And maybe subconsciously, I liked the internet because I actually wanted to make friends.
0:10:22 But I didn’t know that at the time.
0:10:28 So, in all these technologies, I was really focused on information and ideas until fairly recently.
0:10:31 This current stage of life, I don’t want to say later stage of life.
0:10:34 The golden years.
0:10:35 That was golden years.
0:10:39 I started thinking a lot more about relationships.
0:10:49 And I personally had under-invested in relationships and over-invested, I think, in just, like, maybe business.
0:10:49 Yeah.
0:10:51 So, yeah, I’ve been thinking about that a lot lately.
0:10:59 You seem to me to be a thoughtful, you don’t seem, you are a very thoughtful, I want to say systematic guy.
0:11:06 How have you translated thinking about maybe countering the trend of under-investing in relationships?
0:11:07 Have you done anything?
0:11:08 I started a company.
0:11:13 Let’s hear about it, because I’m sure there are people here who have it.
0:11:21 I started a company called Mosey within the last year, and Mosey is an app for finding out where your friends are and getting together.
0:11:28 We like to say it’s actually a social app, because it’s really about getting together with friends by knowing where they are.
0:11:29 So, I’m in Austin.
0:11:31 Who do I know in Austin?
0:11:32 I know a bunch of people in Austin.
0:11:37 I may have forgotten who I know in Austin, but Mosey tells me who’s in Austin, tells me what they’re doing, that type of thing.
0:11:42 The way I look back on some of the early ideas about social and the internet is, of course, we connected with people.
0:11:44 We’ve all made friends through the internet.
0:11:47 We’ve built meaning relationships or maintained relationships.
0:11:51 We’re wired to be deeply social, but that wiring was way before screens.
0:11:55 And that wiring to be social didn’t happen in public.
0:12:02 And so, Mosey is a very simple idea where we said, well, what would an actual social network look like?
0:12:04 And so, that’s what we’re building.
0:12:20 So, I want to edge into a question about sort of initial product design and what your expectations might be just by rewinding the clock a little bit and talking about Odeo a little bit.
0:12:27 So, I’ve read about board meetings, and you’ll have to tell a bit of the context related to Odeo, in which you’re presenting usage metrics at the time.
0:12:30 It wasn’t growing, but it wasn’t dead.
0:12:32 Maybe it was semi-growing.
0:12:47 And as a lot of people here read in the media, as they used to see on magazine covers, the stories of perseverance against all odds, it failed 100 times, but then we succeeded the 101st time, get a lot of airplay.
0:12:56 But I think that something that doesn’t get as much attention is strategic stopping or strategic quitting.
0:13:00 Sometimes it doesn’t make sense to keep beating your head against a wall.
0:13:04 So, could you take us back to Odeo and walk us through that experience?
0:13:13 Yeah, so Odeo was a podcasting company that I co-founded in 2005, which, if you recall, was pre-iPhone.
0:13:17 So, and not to correct Kevin, but Twitter was 2007 when it was here.
0:13:19 So, this was before Twitter.
0:13:22 And podcasting seemed cool.
0:13:24 I don’t know if you’ve heard about it, Tim.
0:13:30 But we’re like, let’s build a platform for podcasts.
0:13:34 And we worked on it for maybe six months.
0:13:35 We raised some money.
0:13:44 Because I had previously sold the company to Google, I was fortunate enough to get some VC funding before we even had a product, which turns out isn’t always fortunate.
0:13:47 So, we had high expectations from kind of get-go.
0:13:49 This is in 2005.
0:13:57 Apple released podcasts in iTunes that summer in 2005, which completely blew us away.
0:13:58 It was totally unexpected.
0:14:04 This is very, very early for podcasts, even though the name comes from the iPod.
0:14:09 And they basically obsoleted what we had been doing for six to nine months overnight.
0:14:14 Then we, you know, we were like, oh, maybe we create a podcast creation tool.
0:14:16 You know, we were trying to pivot and whatnot.
0:14:21 And I think I just came to the conclusion at some point.
0:14:27 The way Biz Stone tells the story is that I wrote this big strategic doc about how to succeed in the podcasting business.
0:14:32 And it was very convincing about the pivot we could do and to do.
0:14:34 And I was like, I don’t want to do this.
0:14:39 And so, I went to investors and said, I don’t think this company is on a great trajectory.
0:14:40 Maybe we should just stop.
0:14:41 But that was unusual.
0:14:45 This is kind of pivoting now, of course, is taken for granted.
0:14:47 That your idea isn’t right the first time out.
0:14:49 That was less assumed back then.
0:14:51 So, I was embarrassed.
0:14:53 I was like, I said I was going to start a podcasting company.
0:14:54 And I raised this money.
0:14:56 I have these employees.
0:14:56 I have these investors.
0:14:59 But I don’t believe in it.
0:15:00 I don’t believe in this vision anymore.
0:15:03 Even though it wasn’t dead, as you said.
0:15:10 Was the reason you didn’t believe in it based on the emergence of iTunes and what that represented?
0:15:11 Or was there more to it?
0:15:13 I wasn’t that into it personally.
0:15:15 I wasn’t a podcaster.
0:15:17 And I think that was another principle that I’ve learned over and over.
0:15:21 is I think some people can build products for other people.
0:15:23 And thank goodness they do.
0:15:25 But I just build products for myself.
0:15:28 And I was like, I don’t know.
0:15:30 I don’t know what the product is here.
0:15:31 We need to build that I want.
0:15:42 But I think to your question about strategic quitting, I think a ton of companies and a ton of people just get in these life situations where they just keep going.
0:15:43 And that’s certainly what I was taught.
0:15:50 In fact, Blogger, which is the company I sold to Google, I completely ran out of money after the dot-com bust.
0:15:56 I had to lay off all my employees, was barely able to pay my rent, and kept working on it, kept working on it, kept working on it.
0:15:59 Eventually sold it to Google very happily.
0:16:04 And to me, I was like, yes, that is the triumph of perseverance, and that’s why you should stick to things.
0:16:07 And then Odeo, thankfully, we didn’t.
0:16:10 We did create another company out of that.
0:16:14 But I think this idea of it’s okay to quit is underappreciated.
0:16:17 And the main reason, everyone knows about sunk cost fallacy.
0:16:21 There’s a great book, by the way, by Andy Duke called Quit, which I highly recommend.
0:16:28 And it actually was part of the reason a couple years ago I stepped down from Medium, which is my last company I was running for a long time.
0:16:30 And I quit my job.
0:16:31 The company is still going.
0:16:36 But I was like, I realized that I was just working as, like, it was ego.
0:16:37 It was pride.
0:16:39 It was expectations of other people.
0:16:49 And the book is really great, if you don’t know it, because it just points out all the reasons beyond sunk cost fallacy that people do things way longer than it makes sense to do them.
0:16:52 And the biggest thing is they underestimate opportunity costs.
0:16:58 If you’re working on one thing, and there’s identity and ego and all those other things, but it’s like you don’t know what else there is.
0:17:04 Until you clear that your attention away from the thing that you’ve been struggling with.
0:17:11 And so I think if you’re in a situation where it feels like a slog, quitting is probably a good idea.
0:17:18 So Andy Duke, for people who might not recognize the name, well-known poker player, also wrote Thinking in Bets, I believe.
0:17:31 So let me ask you then, if you look back now, hindsight 2020, at Ev, who persevered with Blogger and then ended up selling it to Google at a very good time to get Google equity.
0:17:41 Did he just get lucky, did he just get lucky in that perseverance, or was there some type of scent trail that in retrospect you can say, well, it was actually the right thing to do at that time?
0:17:49 I’ve struggled with this because I don’t have a clean way to understand it, but I think one big difference is I believed in the vision of Blogger the whole time.
0:17:54 And that was where Odio was like, I’m keep coming to work and make it succeed.
0:18:01 It was also, I was lucky because Blogger being my first real company, and I was a little bit younger.
0:18:07 I believed in the vision, but I also just was petrified of failing.
0:18:09 I just couldn’t accept that possibility for myself.
0:18:11 I also didn’t have a lot of other prospects.
0:18:13 I’d never really had a job.
0:18:14 I didn’t have a degree.
0:18:20 The dot-com boom was like, well, I don’t know what the hell else I’m going to do if I don’t make this succeed.
0:18:22 So I’m going to stick with it.
0:18:23 But it didn’t really make sense.
0:18:25 So that speaks to your prior comment about the opportunity cost.
0:18:26 Yeah.
0:18:26 Right?
0:18:27 Exactly.
0:18:28 Actually, good point.
0:18:28 Yeah.
0:18:29 Yeah.
0:18:32 Like your opportunity cost was not as high, maybe, at that point.
0:18:33 Fair.
0:18:34 Yeah.
0:18:35 By pursuing something else.
0:18:35 Yeah.
0:18:37 So you mentioned something came out of Odeo.
0:18:38 What came out of Odeo?
0:18:40 A company called Twitter.
0:18:42 I still call it that.
0:18:43 I don’t know about you guys.
0:18:48 How did that happen?
0:18:55 Well, the investors, thankfully, my board, I went to board and said, this is my honest assessment of Odeo.
0:19:01 And they, as good investors do, said, well, we didn’t believe in investing in podcasting.
0:19:02 We invest in you.
0:19:03 You have a great team.
0:19:05 You got any other ideas?
0:19:10 And I thought, hmm, I must have other ideas.
0:19:14 So I always prided myself on having ideas.
0:19:16 But I went back to the team and said, I don’t have any ideas.
0:19:17 You guys got any ideas?
0:19:23 And we ended up doing a hackathon where we basically, for a couple weeks.
0:19:25 So an internal hackathon.
0:19:26 Internal hackathon.
0:19:27 Where we just said, hey, let’s all break into teams.
0:19:29 How many employees did you have at the time?
0:19:32 I think it was around 12, 12, 14, something like that.
0:19:34 People worked on a bunch of stuff.
0:19:41 A lot of it was related because we were doing audio and, you know, recording in the browser with flash and stuff like that.
0:19:47 Again, pre-smartphone, but we were dabbling with text messaging.
0:19:55 And there’s a couple of the engineers that were familiar with how to send text messages on mass, which was little known at that time.
0:19:58 There was no real APIs for that.
0:20:01 And so people were trying a lot of things along those lines.
0:20:04 Maybe we send an audio voice memo.
0:20:05 Maybe we record something in the browser.
0:20:08 Little kind of social things.
0:20:14 Then one of the ideas was to, the way I remember, first it was record a message actually via your phone.
0:20:16 And then it got broadcast text to people.
0:20:17 And then they could listen to it.
0:20:22 And then that quickly evolved to, what if we got rid of the audio?
0:20:24 Maybe it was just text broadcast.
0:20:31 And then, you know, having come from the blogging world, that we were familiar with RSS and subscribing, which turned into following.
0:20:34 And, yeah, kind of evolved from there.
0:20:38 That was, to mention names, that was, of course, BizStone and Jack Dorsey’s project.
0:20:44 And it also was informed by Jack’s previous work on careers and status systems.
0:20:50 And at what point did you, or anyone else for that matter, realize that there was a there there?
0:20:54 Like, oh, there might be something very interesting with this.
0:20:56 We were pretty intrigued right away.
0:21:01 I mean, we certainly didn’t know the extent of it by any means.
0:21:05 But it felt new and interesting.
0:21:07 We kept evolving it.
0:21:08 It definitely wasn’t right.
0:21:11 I mean, I think no ideas come out fully baked.
0:21:13 And so there was a lot we had to get right.
0:21:15 Like, what is the graph?
0:21:22 The very first version actually was highly informed by status messages, which were a thing in Facebook.
0:21:26 But this is pre-Facebook being available to outside of colleges.
0:21:27 And we were too old to be on Facebook.
0:21:30 So we didn’t even know about status messages on Facebook.
0:21:31 But it was kind of like that.
0:21:33 It was kind of like AIM messages.
0:21:36 And the very first version, there wasn’t a whole feed.
0:21:39 It was just the latest person who had updated their status was on top.
0:21:41 And it went out via text message.
0:21:44 And so, but we’re like, hmm, interesting.
0:21:48 And we felt it was interesting when we had maybe 10 people on it.
0:21:49 10 people worked at the company.
0:21:52 And then we started getting our partners on it.
0:21:53 And we were intrigued.
0:21:55 But so this is 2006.
0:22:00 And it really wasn’t growing for months and months.
0:22:06 And really, we hit an inflection point here in Austin in 2007.
0:22:13 So I have to just mention that that particular southbound is very nostalgic for me.
0:22:18 Because I launched the 4-Hour Workweek with an overflow presentation in 2007.
0:22:23 After haranguing the shit out of Hugh Forrest.
0:22:26 Thank you for letting me fill in for a cancellation.
0:22:28 And basically next to a cafeteria.
0:22:30 My laptop failed.
0:22:33 So I ended up having to improv the thing without my slides.
0:22:42 And I remember the big screen TV in the ground level of the conference center showing tweets.
0:22:42 Yeah.
0:22:43 Going through.
0:22:44 And I was like, huh, look at that.
0:22:45 Yeah.
0:22:48 That was the idea we had.
0:22:51 It was starting to take off amongst the people we knew.
0:22:59 And South by it was always the conference where, like, the indie, cool tech people came.
0:23:00 And these were our people.
0:23:04 And they were the ones, our early adopters of Twitter, because they came from the blogging world.
0:23:06 And they were friends.
0:23:10 And so we sensed that we could get critical mass here.
0:23:14 So we talked to Hugh and whoever from his team.
0:23:17 And, of course, they were like, well, you could have a trade show floor.
0:23:18 And I’m like, no, no, no.
0:23:19 No one goes to a trade show.
0:23:25 Can we buy a screen and put it in the hall where everybody’s hanging out?
0:23:27 And that was the move.
0:23:28 And people saw that.
0:23:29 And I’m like, oh.
0:23:30 That’s amazing.
0:23:32 I didn’t realize that back story.
0:23:34 It costs $11,000.
0:23:36 It’s a great investment.
0:23:38 $11,000.
0:23:44 A little more expensive these days, I think, since you’re competing against AT&T and God knows who else.
0:23:55 But this ties into Mosey in part because I’m wondering how much your expectation is that you will design and deliver to spec,
0:24:00 maybe like an Uber, where the business model has changed relatively little over time, right?
0:24:00 It’s been very reliable.
0:24:03 It’s kind of stayed very similar.
0:24:06 With, obviously, bells and whistles and changes along the way.
0:24:13 Or is your expectation, maybe along the lines of a Twitter or Odeo, in some sense, morphing into a Twitter,
0:24:17 that Mosey is just a starting point?
0:24:22 And your expectation is it’s probably going to end up being something very, very different a year or two.
0:24:24 I’m sure it’ll end up in something very, very different.
0:24:26 It’s early for Mosey.
0:24:31 The way we think about it, in our wildest dreams, it is a ubiquitous social network.
0:24:38 And the way Facebook was at one time, but actually designed for enhancing people’s social lives and relationships.
0:24:40 Which means it’s not a media platform.
0:24:41 It’s not an advertising platform.
0:24:43 It’s not a performative platform.
0:24:45 It’s not a status-building platform.
0:24:50 It’s really about sharing information that’s important to you with people you care about and enabling.
0:24:55 It won’t all be about IRL, but that’s where folks end right now.
0:24:57 But it’s early.
0:24:58 We haven’t figured it out yet.
0:25:02 And I think that’s part of the fun, is figuring out where it goes.
0:25:05 So you impressed me at a whole lot of levels.
0:25:08 I’ve always found you to be a very deep thinker.
0:25:09 You think a lot.
0:25:14 And you choose your words carefully and ask a lot of good questions.
0:25:19 And I’m always curious about the inputs, what you feed yourself in terms of information.
0:25:22 And I’ve read that you’re fond of a few books.
0:25:31 This may have changed because this is from 2016, but Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance, Robert Persig, The Effective Executive by Peter Drucker.
0:25:40 I don’t know if you would still stand by those, but I’m curious, if so, why those books and if there are any others that you would add to that list?
0:25:42 Where’d you get that list?
0:25:44 That is New York Times.
0:25:47 EvWilliamsFavoriteBooks.html.
0:25:53 Yeah, I probably wouldn’t pick those now.
0:25:54 It’s been a while.
0:25:58 I’m not an executive anymore, so I mean, that’s not as useful.
0:26:01 Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance is great.
0:26:08 But I will mention one book very related to the conversation, which is, have you read Why Greatness Cannot Be Planned?
0:26:08 No.
0:26:09 Great title, though.
0:26:11 Why Greatness Cannot Be Planned.
0:26:13 I recommend this to 100 people.
0:26:14 Love this book.
0:26:18 The subtitle is The Myth of the Objective.
0:26:25 And the premise is by a guy named Ken Stanley and another guy who were AI researchers.
0:26:30 And the way it starts out is they, this is early AI researchers.
0:26:32 Ken Wen worked at OpenAI later.
0:26:34 They were building bots.
0:26:40 And the example they talk about is trying to build a robot to go through a maze.
0:26:45 And how they, you know, tried to program all kinds of smart algorithms into it.
0:26:49 And then they found that the most effective strategy was just try something new.
0:27:05 And they go on from that and extrapolate this idea that if you are trying to do something that hasn’t been done before, you know, we’re taught from birth and from school and everywhere is like, set your goal, make a plan to get to the plan.
0:27:06 Persevere, go through that.
0:27:13 And the premise of the book is that works if it’s something that’s been done a lot and that’s formulaic.
0:27:28 You can set a goal to run a marathon and you can, you know, download a training regime and you can go run the marathon and probably because you can’t do that to invent the computer or Twitter or like create amazing art.
0:27:29 You can’t plot it.
0:27:37 And to the extent you try to plot it, you shoot yourself in the foot because you cut off the possibilities that lay before you.
0:27:42 And I read this book when I was running media in my last company.
0:27:52 It had a great effect on me because I felt this deep sense of relief because my entire business and startup career, I’ve been deeply driven to create things.
0:27:57 I saw like companies in particular products as a creative process.
0:28:00 You know, it’s like writing a book or painting a painting.
0:28:03 It’s like you have to figure it out as you go.
0:28:05 You don’t have it fully baked in your head from day one.
0:28:11 But what I’ve seen happen a million times and happened to me is you have this intuition.
0:28:13 You kind of know what it is.
0:28:14 You start to develop it.
0:28:16 You’re like, oh, it’s this, not that.
0:28:17 Let’s try this, not that.
0:28:22 And you feel your way into what’s the best first version of it.
0:28:34 If you’re lucky and good enough that that first version, you know, meets with some success in the world, then at least in the tech world, employees and investors and business people come in.
0:28:36 It’s like, OK, where are we going next?
0:28:36 What’s the plan?
0:28:37 What’s the roadmap?
0:28:40 You know, how are we going to make the numbers go up?
0:28:44 And it doesn’t work to very far.
0:28:46 It works like a little bit to get that next stage.
0:28:49 But it doesn’t work to really innovate.
0:28:49 It doesn’t work.
0:28:53 And so you have to be comfortable with the ambiguity of not knowing where you’re going to go.
0:28:59 And this book is good and it makes its points very short.
0:29:07 It also talks about evolution a lot and how, like, the most creative force in the world is clearly nature.
0:29:10 And, like, it has no plan.
0:29:11 It just tries shit.
0:29:12 Trial and error.
0:29:13 Yeah.
0:29:14 All right.
0:29:15 Taking notes.
0:29:17 That’s going to be one of my next reads.
0:29:24 Just a quick thanks to one of our sponsors and we’ll be right back to the show.
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0:30:49 You mentioned AI, and it is the topic du jour.
0:31:02 But, I can’t believe everything you read on the internet, but I believe that 25% of the latest Y Combinator class wrote 95% plus of their code using AI.
0:31:09 And I’m curious, you have kids, what would you suggest your kids study in school?
0:31:12 My kids are here, in fact.
0:31:14 Whatever they want.
0:31:19 I mean, it depends on what the goal is.
0:31:19 I mean, I think…
0:31:21 I can frame it a little more.
0:31:22 I can strain it.
0:31:24 I would say, if people are wondering here how to…
0:31:31 I don’t want to say AI-proof themselves, because good luck predicting where that’s going to go.
0:31:38 But, are there any fundamental skills or specific skills that you think will increase in value over time?
0:31:51 For instance, I don’t know if I had kids if I would suggest they take a legal path, necessarily, since I already use AI in 30 seconds to draft most of my legal documents before I send it to human eyes.
0:31:53 Do you have any thoughts?
0:32:00 I haven’t thought about this deeply, but what comes to mind is social, human things.
0:32:01 Two things.
0:32:08 One is, I do encourage them to read and write, still, because I think that’s how you figure things out.
0:32:15 That’s, like, the best way to think and have ideas and get clarity is to write.
0:32:18 And you can’t write if you don’t read.
0:32:29 So, even if the AI can write for you, that’s fine if it’s a paper or, you know, a report or some analysis where the product is very important.
0:32:31 Like, this is the information and text that I need.
0:32:35 But, it robs you of the process of thinking.
0:32:41 So, I think problem solving, creative ideation is useful no matter what you do, ever.
0:32:44 So, I think those core skills and then social skills.
0:32:52 I mean, one of the reasons I love the school they go to is actually they have a thing called SEL, which maybe you all had, but I sure as hell didn’t have in rural Nebraska in the 70s.
0:32:57 It’s social, emotional learning, and that’s just, like, how do you connect with people?
0:33:05 I mean, we know that’s critical to any job no matter what you’re doing, and I think that’s probably, well, hopefully not going to go away.
0:33:06 Who knows?
0:33:12 I think we’re in a lot of trouble if that gets removed from you in life.
0:33:17 So, let’s shift gears a bit, and I’ll just ask a question I like to ask.
0:33:18 If it goes nowhere, it goes nowhere.
0:33:23 All right, so, metaphorically speaking, the billboard question, right?
0:33:36 So, if you were going to put a message on a billboard, could say anything, could be an image, anything at all that you would want a lot of people to see and understand, what might you put on that?
0:33:38 I love this question.
0:33:40 I might overthink it.
0:33:44 And understand.
0:33:46 So, we can assume they’ll understand.
0:33:51 The and understand I threw on there with a little creative flourish, it may complicate your thinking.
0:33:52 I’m going to build on that.
0:34:06 In thinking about this, what comes to mind, first of all, is the category is something that will help people heal, you know, just be their whole and true selves.
0:34:09 Because I think that’s where all our problems come from, is the lack of that.
0:34:17 And as much as I care about climate, I think the key to solving climate is to heal ourselves, to heal culture, to heal the planet.
0:34:18 And so, I start with the self.
0:34:30 And then my mind goes to what’s a big fundamental truth that we want everyone, let’s pretend if they read it, they’ll actually get it and know it.
0:34:36 Then I think there’s a little bit of tension between like the most fundamental truths and how actionable they are.
0:34:42 So, if we said, we are all one, which I believe, it’s like, okay, we’re all one.
0:34:44 The universe is one big thing, we’re all connected.
0:34:46 What do I do with that?
0:34:51 I mean, maybe if you really ponder that and meditate on that a long time, it’ll actually, it will do you some good.
0:35:08 But then if you move toward the spectrum of usefulness, of what’s a fundamental truth that’s more useful, you might have like some Buddhist saying like all of our suffering comes from, you know, our thoughts or inability to accept reality, which is a little bit more useful.
0:35:12 But maybe for the masses, not, still not very actionable.
0:35:22 And then you could move to like, feel your feelings, which I think would do a tremendous amount of good if people adopt, oh, feel your feelings.
0:35:25 It’s a little bit easier to imagine that, like so much of our suffering.
0:35:29 And I say this as someone who told their first therapist, I don’t understand the point of feelings.
0:35:33 I was like, they are just a nuisance and get in the way.
0:35:39 So it took me a long time to appreciate that and the avoidance that so many of us go through.
0:35:48 And then one step further might be stop drinking alcohol for six months and see how you feel.
0:35:52 Not tonight, though.
0:35:53 It’s fine.
0:35:53 We’re in a bar.
0:35:53 Not tonight.
0:35:53 Nice.
0:35:54 Starting tomorrow.
0:35:55 Starting tomorrow.
0:35:55 Consider it.
0:36:01 So following up just on the feeling your feelings, you said for a long time, and you said this to your first therapist, right?
0:36:06 If they’re just a nuisance, I’d like to know how to rid myself of these irritations.
0:36:08 What changed?
0:36:11 How did you end up going on to team feelings?
0:36:14 So, I mean, it was a long, long process.
0:36:16 I mean, the therapy helped.
0:36:17 The psychedelics helped.
0:36:25 Meditation, growth, learning, reading books, having friends, stopping drinking, actually, just for six months.
0:36:29 And I’ve gone through a lot.
0:36:32 I’ve done a lot of work, particularly in the last couple of years.
0:36:34 That’s been just super, super important.
0:36:36 Yeah, just a note on alcohol.
0:36:37 Look, I’m going to have some drinks tonight.
0:36:38 I do enjoy drinking.
0:36:47 But just a PSA for people, because ketamine is in the air.
0:36:49 Ketamine is probably in a few people’s pockets here.
0:36:51 They’re both dissociative anesthetics.
0:36:57 So if you want to feel your feelings, it’s a good idea not to engage with those things excessively.
0:37:03 And if you have a history of alcohol overuse, I would also stay away from any at-home ketamine.
0:37:08 But in terms of books or types of therapy, did you find, if there are people in the audience who are like,
0:37:14 yeah, you know what, actually, that makes sense to me, but I’ve never been able to find a handhold to get started?
0:37:16 Is there any advice you might give?
0:37:22 Probably the best thing I’ve ever done in that realm is Hoffman.
0:37:24 Have you done Hoffman?
0:37:27 Hoffman, I haven’t done Hoffman, but quite a few of my friends have.
0:37:29 So there’s this thing called the Hoffman process.
0:37:33 It’s 20 years of therapy in a week in terms of the effect.
0:37:36 I mean, I got much more out of it than I ever got in therapy.
0:37:38 It’s a week-long retreat.
0:37:39 There’s a few different places.
0:37:41 The main one’s in Petaluma, California.
0:37:51 You hand over your phone, you go and do some exercises with 36 strangers and yourself for a week,
0:37:52 and you come out a new person.
0:38:00 So I’ve spoken, well, not directly, I’ve more listened, but had a conversation on this podcast
0:38:05 where the Hoffman process came up, and a lot of listeners have gone to the Hoffman process,
0:38:14 and I get letters literally every week from people who are thanking me for not really the proper credit
0:38:17 because there’s someone else who brought it up for the Hoffman process.
0:38:19 I’m very curious.
0:38:20 You mentioned the strangers.
0:38:28 Part of the reason I haven’t gone is I’m like, I don’t want to air all of my dirty laundry in front of 20 strangers.
0:38:29 I don’t know these people.
0:38:33 And I know you’re also, I think it’s fair to say, pretty introverted.
0:38:38 I would say I am, even though I’m on stage, like, safely speaking into the darkness.
0:38:44 Was that an issue at all for you, or how did you get past that?
0:38:49 It wasn’t easy, but it’s just in the context of it, it just feels very safe.
0:38:57 One of the fascinating things is, as strangers, you are not allowed to say your last name or what you do in the real world when you get there.
0:39:06 So you connect with people, and I realized, after a few days, I relied so much on people knowing who I was or what I did,
0:39:10 that it was this veil between me and other humans.
0:39:16 So you get to know people at such a deep level without really knowing any of the normal things,
0:39:19 that we would say, you meet someone here, what do you do, where do you live?
0:39:24 And that, it just feels incredibly safe.
0:39:30 But the process is, they’ve been doing it for 50-some years, it’s very evolved, it’s very well done.
0:39:32 You take any of it out of context, it sounds weird.
0:39:34 Like, I knew nothing going in.
0:39:39 And about five people brought it up to me in random conversations over a week, and were like,
0:39:42 okay, this is a message, I’m going to go sign up for this thing.
0:39:44 Show up, I had no idea.
0:39:47 And then you just dive in, and it’s incredible.
0:39:50 Yeah, from what I can tell, it’s somewhat like Fight Club.
0:39:53 It’s like, first rule of Fight Club is don’t talk about Fight Club.
0:39:56 You’re not going to find much detail on the Hoffman process.
0:40:02 This also ties into a question I was planning on asking anyway, which is, are there any habits
0:40:09 or beliefs that have really positively impacted your life in the last handful of years?
0:40:15 Could also be 10 years ago, but you’ve talked about doing a lot of work in the last handful of years.
0:40:21 Any new habits, beliefs, tools, anything come to mind that have been really helpful?
0:40:26 Yes, but I feel like they’re the ones that everybody knows.
0:40:30 Well, I mean, sometimes the fundamentals are worth a review.
0:40:33 I mean, it is exercise and meditation.
0:40:40 I dabbled in for a long time, and then I got much more serious a couple years ago about both,
0:40:44 and really, really dramatic life improvement.
0:40:46 Why did you get more serious about them?
0:40:49 You just wake up one day, and you’re like, today’s a new day?
0:40:52 Or was there a breaking point?
0:40:55 Early COVID, I was like, what the fuck am I doing?
0:41:02 I’m going to turn 50, and I need to work a hell of a lot harder to be in shape than I was.
0:41:03 So I just started doing it.
0:41:04 I was at home.
0:41:05 I had the time.
0:41:06 So I did that.
0:41:11 Although that’s increased, because you get the positive reward cycle, and it feels great.
0:41:16 And meditation, I’ve always found super valuable.
0:41:24 And I just last year, on January 2nd, 2024, I had meditated the day before.
0:41:28 I was like, I could meditate every single day this year.
0:41:34 And it was just that sort of psychological hook that you find motivating, even though it’s arbitrary.
0:41:37 And I was like, yes, I’m going to meditate every single day in 2024.
0:41:38 That’s a goal.
0:41:41 And I don’t normally set goals like that.
0:41:44 But I was like, okay, let’s see what happens.
0:41:48 And my teacher says, you can’t boil water if you keep turning off the flame.
0:41:54 And so the consistency of meditation, I underestimated what dramatic difference that makes,
0:41:57 and how fast you can drop in if you do it every single day.
0:42:01 What type of meditation did you decide on?
0:42:05 Just mindfulness, meditation, breath, and awareness.
0:42:07 Not TM, just…
0:42:10 Just like an open monitoring, feel what you feel, see what you see.
0:42:11 Yeah.
0:42:14 Are you noting things, or are you just observing?
0:42:15 Noting, sometimes noting.
0:42:18 And I know you like to know about products.
0:42:19 You know about this product.
0:42:21 But I was using The Way.
0:42:21 Yep.
0:42:22 You’ve probably talked about that before.
0:42:24 The Way is a meditation app.
0:42:26 I hadn’t used a meditation app for years.
0:42:32 The Way, I started using The Way, Kevin sent it to me, actually, around when it was still in beta.
0:42:35 And I started doing that around that time.
0:42:36 Yeah.
0:42:37 The Way is fantastic.
0:42:37 Yeah.
0:42:40 Henry Schuchman, just an incredible guy.
0:42:43 I mean, we’ll hope to meet him in person someday.
0:42:48 Do you have a favorite failure or any favorite failures that come to mind?
0:42:52 I mean, you’ve got a greatest hits list that’s pretty outstanding.
0:42:54 I’m just wondering…
0:42:55 I have a lot of failures.
0:43:03 And anything that has either taught you a lot or in some way set you up for successes later.
0:43:06 That’s two possible ways of approaching it.
0:43:13 We’re already talking about Odeo, which is kind of a failure that led to Twitter, so that’s obvious.
0:43:25 But a thing that took me a very long time to appreciate that felt like the biggest failure possible was getting fired from Twitter, which I did.
0:43:26 Yeah, I co-founded the company.
0:43:36 I was CEO for two years, and then I got fired to my great shock and dismay, and I was just devastated.
0:43:37 Absolutely.
0:43:44 Now I looked and I was like, wow, I’m probably way happier today than I would have been had I not.
0:43:46 But it took me a while.
0:43:48 It took me a long while to appreciate that.
0:43:52 What was the silver lining on that in retrospect?
0:43:58 It kind of goes back to all our unhappiness comes from thinking things shouldn’t be how they are.
0:44:09 And I was very upset because of the injustice of it and what I thought was just dumb.
0:44:19 Now, in retrospect, and even at the time, I knew I was in over my head to a certain extent, and Dick, who became the CEO, was much better at certain aspects of the job.
0:44:23 I wasn’t even that attached to being the CEO long term.
0:44:27 I was just like, maybe we should talk about it before you fire me.
0:44:32 I mean, that seemed rude, but I mean, it was my company.
0:44:38 But the silver lining was like, I didn’t have to do the job anymore.
0:44:39 That’s one.
0:44:43 I mean, I still owned a bunch of the company.
0:44:45 I didn’t have to do the job.
0:44:48 I mean, that’s like, objectively, it wasn’t that bad.
0:44:52 But as an identity and ego hit, it was tremendous.
0:44:58 I also, I thought the best thing for the company was for me to stay, and even not in CEO role.
0:45:02 And I tried to negotiate that, and that wasn’t accepted.
0:45:05 But it was more like, this is so wrong.
0:45:07 It was like, okay, what can I learn from this?
0:45:13 What is, once I was out of that, you know, some deep reflection happened.
0:45:17 And I think a long term path of personal growth.
0:45:24 Are there any people who come to mind who you’re tracking right now?
0:45:27 Or anyone you think people should pay more attention to?
0:45:34 Innovators, technologists, thinkers, alive or dead?
0:45:36 I’ll mention another book.
0:45:37 Perfect.
0:45:42 What I’ve been geeking out on recently is How the Universe Works.
0:45:45 Small side project.
0:45:45 You know.
0:45:52 Which I used to read a lot of physics books and quantum physics just for fun.
0:45:58 And it had been a while, so I started delving into that more recently.
0:46:01 Just set a bubble bath, light a candle, read some quantum physics.
0:46:06 There’s a book I’m reading right now called The One by Henry Posse.
0:46:07 I don’t know anything about him.
0:46:15 The One is about, it’s about how, it’s monism, the idea that the universe is just one thing.
0:46:20 And nature and us and this glass is all one thing.
0:46:21 And that the separation is an illusion.
0:46:26 How that fits with quantum physics and the whole history of quantum physics.
0:46:29 And how this idea had come up, but rejected.
0:46:42 It was very interesting to learn how the implications of that, which we’ve heard about with multiverse and all these crazy ideas, were rejected by scientists who were materialists.
0:46:47 And it was interesting to learn that materialism in the science is basically a religion.
0:46:50 And that’s fascinating.
0:46:52 How did you find this book?
0:46:55 My partner, James Joaquin, at Obvious.
0:46:59 We like to talk about how the universe works and then invest in startups.
0:47:02 Sounds like a great job.
0:47:04 All right.
0:47:10 Do you tend to find books, again, just riffing on how you choose your intake, right?
0:47:15 And there’s finding the signal and then there’s tuning out the noise.
0:47:19 I mean, I haven’t had any social apps on my phone for years at this point.
0:47:25 Because I just don’t have the control to be like the heroin addict wandering into the heroin den.
0:47:27 But then there’s choosing the signal.
0:47:39 And I think books are still, if you can do it with a slightly longer attention span or to cultivate that, a great way of finding these, like I said earlier, scent trails to follow.
0:47:46 But you still have a problem because there are 100,000 plus books published in hardcover alone in the U.S. every year.
0:47:48 How do you choose your books?
0:47:49 And do any other books come to mind?
0:47:51 I wish I had a better way.
0:47:55 I should ask you, how many books do you read a month?
0:47:56 Probably four or five.
0:47:57 Okay.
0:47:58 You read a lot more than I do.
0:48:01 But I may read two a month.
0:48:09 But I think it’s kind of haphazard, which is scary because you’re going to select a very tiny portion.
0:48:11 Yeah, Tim Urban style, right?
0:48:14 It’s like you’ve got time for however many books left in your life.
0:48:15 Right, right.
0:48:18 Great book, by the way, Tim Urban’s book.
0:48:20 I have the, it’s pretty random.
0:48:23 It’s just like wandering, like I’ll buy tons of books.
0:48:28 I read mostly on my phone, but I’ll buy physical books to remember that the book exists.
0:48:35 And then, so I’ll have it laying around the house and be like, oh, I should, oh, this is interesting.
0:48:37 And then I’ll go, because I’ll just read it on my phone.
0:48:39 But I feel like I should have a better way.
0:48:41 I also watch a lot of YouTube, I have to admit.
0:48:43 What do you watch on YouTube?
0:48:46 It’s got to be better than what I watch.
0:48:49 I end up in some weird corners.
0:48:59 I watch music content, like how to make music, like make music as a hobby as well.
0:49:01 And then like quantum physics stuff.
0:49:03 Do you have a background in physics?
0:49:07 No, I don’t even understand it.
0:49:12 I don’t want to give the impression that I, I, I’m an expert on any of this.
0:49:13 I just follow my curiosity.
0:49:14 Yeah.
0:49:19 I used to just exclusively consume business and technology and startup stuff.
0:49:27 Most of my adult life, I was CEO of a company and just waking up every day, desperately trying to make that succeed.
0:49:32 And so a lot of my new stuff, like music, it was like, it was just fun.
0:49:34 Do you read any fiction?
0:49:36 I’m trying to read more fiction.
0:49:39 I tried reading that book that you recommended a little while back.
0:49:41 Oh, it’s so hard.
0:49:42 It was so hard.
0:49:45 A little big, little big, little big by John Crowley.
0:49:52 This is the one book that I hesitate to recommend because nine out of 10 people are just like, what the fuck?
0:49:54 You even said that in the recommendation.
0:49:55 I’m like, I can, I can handle it.
0:49:56 I got this.
0:49:58 I’m going to do it.
0:49:59 I, I, I gave up.
0:50:00 Yeah.
0:50:05 The more drugs one has done, the easier it is to eventually get into the talking fish section of the book.
0:50:06 Okay.
0:50:09 When then you kind of cross the Rubicon and it’s all in.
0:50:11 But yeah, John Crowley, any other fiction books?
0:50:13 You said you’re trying.
0:50:18 Oh, I just read this Miranda July book, All Fours.
0:50:19 Okay.
0:50:19 It’s good.
0:50:20 She’s hilarious.
0:50:22 It’s random.
0:50:22 Yeah.
0:50:23 Got it.
0:50:26 All right.
0:50:35 So if we look back at the products that you’ve built, if you were to build any of them again today,
0:50:41 are there any features you would either remove or add that come to mind?
0:50:51 I think a lot of cases, I was much too eager to add things, especially medium.
0:50:54 Medium, I definitely prematurely scaled.
0:50:56 And I just wanted to create a nice…
0:50:58 Why do you say that?
0:50:59 That it prematurely scaled?
0:51:08 I’m good at seeing like systems and like a product and like most of the things I build are systems.
0:51:10 They’re not just, you know, a product.
0:51:17 And with medium, I had lots of experience understanding the internet and publishing some platform.
0:51:20 And I was like, wanted to build everything new.
0:51:28 And that may or may not have been possible, but I tried to do it all at once, which was, I think, the mistake.
0:51:35 And so that’s why I say we’re prematurely scaled is just that it takes time to get everything right.
0:51:38 And, you know, the company and the product, etc.
0:51:44 And because when you’re trying to do a whole bunch of things at once, it’s classic failing mode to try to bite off more than you can chew.
0:51:55 And almost every, I’d say 80% of the time, if I meet with a startup or founder, which I don’t really do anymore, if they ask me their advice, they say, do less.
0:51:59 And so medium, it was like that.
0:52:02 It was like build a great writing platform.
0:52:04 And I got impatient for growth.
0:52:12 Was that due to outside pressure or was that an internally generated pressure?
0:52:16 It was internal, but it was self-imposed by me.
0:52:28 But it was also, this is a part of prematurely scaling is if you get beyond a handful of employees, it’s as much pressure from employees as it is from investors.
0:52:35 And if you have everyone around the table and everyone’s seeing all that, then you can kind of take your time more.
0:52:44 But if you, like, people are having doubts and you have to sell internally all the time before you figure it all out, that’s a dangerous place to be.
0:52:46 So that’s where we were for a while.
0:52:54 So when you say do less, right, I’m sure a lot of folks in this audience, I’ve been in a position where I’m trying to do more things than I should.
0:53:04 Taking a maybe shotgun approach to trying to impatiently get seven things done when I should probably put them in some type of logical sequence.
0:53:17 So if you’re trying to take a more rifle-like approach and you could give the example with medium or it could be with Mosey or otherwise, how do you choose the first few things to focus on?
0:53:24 When you have this ocean of possibilities, looking back, we can use this as a starting point at, say, medium.
0:53:28 What would you have focused on in terms of feature set or otherwise?
0:53:35 I’ll use Mosey as an example of that, sorry, because it’s fresher in my mind, but where we’ve done a much better job.
0:53:40 So Mosey I originally conceived of as a better contacts app.
0:53:46 And the idea was, it’s a very old idea, like the Plaxo idea, if you remember that.
0:53:47 I do remember.
0:53:50 I remember hearing about Plaxo 2001 or something like that.
0:53:57 And the idea of Plaxo, pre-smartphone, desktop, like a Rolodex on your computer.
0:54:03 But if I have your business card in my Rolodex, you can update it on my Rolodex.
0:54:16 I heard that idea, I’m like, duh, that’s like one of the many things that the internet is going to change is like the difference of being in a connected world versus a disconnected world is in what utility and great stuff come from that.
0:54:23 And then fast forward 2023, we still don’t have that, which is kind of crazy.
0:54:28 Like I have this contacts app and it’s like lacking information, it’s incomplete, it’s outdated.
0:54:31 So it’s like, I’m going to build a better contacts app.
0:54:38 And then it led to the idea of, okay, if you managed to do that and got lots of people connected, then you would actually have this private social network.
0:54:39 Then you could do all kinds of things.
0:54:48 And one of the ideas we had was location sharing or like city level location sharing.
0:54:51 But we also have these ideas around customizing.
0:54:57 If it’s a digital business card, it was like, what if you could customize it, make it look really cool and choose your fonts and colors.
0:55:01 And wouldn’t that be just fun and kind of a throwback?
0:55:03 So we actually built that.
0:55:10 We built this whole system for making these cool looking cards that would show up for your friends in your Mosey.
0:55:14 And then we killed it all, thankfully.
0:55:19 And that was painful because, you know, you’ve gone down a path with the team.
0:55:20 They work really hard.
0:55:22 And like, actually, you know what?
0:55:30 This is complicating our vision because what we’re hearing from people and what we’re sensing is that’s kind of noise compared to the utility.
0:55:36 What I just want to know is when my friend’s in town or I just want to know when I’m going to a city, like, where are my friends?
0:55:38 And all the rest of this is noise.
0:55:39 So we ripped that out.
0:55:48 How are you going to approach the invite process to show your contacts?
0:55:52 Because this seems to have been a challenge with some previous attempts at this work.
0:55:58 If I look at my contacts, I’ve had, I mean, my contacts is this bloated monster full of people.
0:56:03 A lot of them are sort of acquaintances I don’t really want to keep in touch with.
0:56:07 They’re probably a handful of frenemies where I’m like, definitely don’t want to see those people.
0:56:10 Some crazies, don’t want to see them either.
0:56:13 But they’re still somewhere hidden in my contacts.
0:56:18 So how do I just have my real friends notified?
0:56:19 Good question.
0:56:23 We are assuming, for starters, we made this a false assumption.
0:56:30 If you are in the phone book of someone else and they’re in yours, that you’re willing to share more than your phone number.
0:56:31 You’re willing to share your private profile.
0:56:35 And we’re not sharing anything that’s never public.
0:56:42 But that’s, if you’ve given your phone number to them, then you can see what we build in mode Z profile, which is just, it’s not addressed.
0:56:44 It’s like social handles.
0:56:47 It’s more or less what would just show up on a social network profile.
0:56:50 But some people are nervous about that.
0:56:55 So, I mean, you can not sync your contacts and build it from scratch, would be the answer.
0:56:57 And then plans have a separate mode.
0:57:05 So, what people are most nervous about, and we want to make very clear, is it’s not going to tell everybody in your address book where you are.
0:57:08 We don’t even automatically update your location.
0:57:09 You put in plans.
0:57:19 And then at the plan level, there’s another level of privacy where you just say, you have to actually opt in to say, this person can see my plans.
0:57:21 Does that make sense?
0:57:22 Yeah, it makes sense.
0:57:30 We’re trying to take a conservative approach to privacy, but balance that, obviously, with ease of use and growth and having enough nodes in the network.
0:57:33 But we’re not compromising on privacy.
0:57:40 We never want to surprise someone that they’re sharing information with that random ex or crazy person who happens to be in their phone book.
0:57:43 So, we’re coming up on time pretty quickly.
0:57:45 You guys excited for a fun night?
0:57:48 There’s a lot coming.
0:57:52 You mentioned, I think it was January 2024.
0:57:55 I could meditate every day this year.
0:58:00 Do you have anything on the docket for 2025 that’s like that?
0:58:01 Do you make resolutions?
0:58:06 No, that’s the only one I’d made in years, actually.
0:58:09 Other than just general themes, like dance more.
0:58:11 Here we are tonight.
0:58:12 You guys are in luck.
0:58:13 You guys ready?
0:58:17 All right, well, we’re going to land the plane.
0:58:23 Anything else you’d like to say, have any closing comments, thoughts for the audience?
0:58:26 I would just say, Tim, thank you for having me.
0:58:29 Tim and I have known each other for like 20 years.
0:58:30 I’ve never been on the podcast.
0:58:31 That was fun.
0:58:41 And it’s just a whole night of nostalgia because we’re back in Austin and it’s Dignation and it’s a good time.
0:58:42 So, I hope you guys enjoy it.
0:58:46 Yeah, I will say, guys, it feels like the mojo is back to South by after COVID.
0:58:48 It took a few years.
0:58:51 And you have an amazing night in store.
0:58:53 So, we’ll get more people out here in just a minute.
0:58:55 I will be back out in maybe a half hour.
0:58:59 I have a surprise and maybe even some gifts for everybody here.
0:59:00 So, stick around.
0:59:02 And Ev, thank you.
0:59:03 So much fun.
0:59:04 Have a great night, everybody.
0:59:10 Hey, guys, this is Tim again.
0:59:12 Just one more thing before you take off.
0:59:14 And that is Five Bullet Friday.
0:59:19 Would you enjoy getting a short email from me every Friday that provides a little fun before the weekend?
0:59:26 Between one and a half and two million people subscribe to my free newsletter, my super short newsletter called Five Bullet Friday.
0:59:27 Easy to sign up.
0:59:28 Easy to cancel.
0:59:37 It is basically a half page that I send out every Friday to share the coolest things I’ve found or discovered or have started exploring over that week.
0:59:39 It’s kind of like my diary of cool things.
0:59:51 It often includes articles I’m reading, books I’m reading, albums perhaps, gadgets, gizmos, all sorts of tech tricks and so on that get sent to me by my friends, including a lot of podcast guests.
0:59:55 And these strange esoteric things end up in my field.
0:59:56 And then I test them.
0:59:58 And then I share them with you.
1:00:01 So, if that sounds fun, again, it’s very short.
1:00:05 A little tiny bite of goodness before you head off for the weekend.
1:00:06 Something to think about.
1:00:09 If you’d like to try it out, just go to Tim.blog slash Friday.
1:00:10 Type that into your browser.
1:00:13 Tim.blog slash Friday.
1:00:15 Drop in your email and you’ll get the very next one.
1:00:16 Thanks for listening.
1:00:21 I want to give my pooch, Molly, the best of everything.
1:00:24 She is my companion.
1:00:25 She is my guardian.
1:00:28 She’s been with me for almost 10 years now, 24-7.
1:00:31 I want to give her the absolute best.
1:00:33 And that includes food, especially food.
1:00:35 It is the bedrock of her health.
1:00:38 That’s why I give her Sundays for Dogs, this episode’s sponsored.
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1:01:41 I am always on the hunt for protein sources that don’t require sacrifices in taste or nutrition.
1:01:42 I don’t want to eat sawdust.
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1:02:12 I was actually first introduced to them by my friend Peter Atiyah, MD, who is their chief science officer.
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1:02:32 And why is that important?
1:02:37 Well, adequate protein intake is critical for building and preserving muscle mass, especially
1:02:38 as we age.
1:02:44 And one of the biggest things that you want to pay attention to is counteracting sarcopenia,
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1:02:47 And for that, you need enough protein.
1:02:49 When in doubt, up your protein.
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0:00:02 – Hello, ladies and germs, boys and girls.
0:00:03 This is Tim Ferriss.
0:00:05 Welcome to another episode of The Tim Ferriss Show.
0:00:08 For this episode, I’m going to offer something
0:00:09 a little different.
0:00:12 I’m going to introduce you to Terry Reel.
0:00:16 Terry Reel is by far the best relationship coach,
0:00:20 the best couples therapist I have ever met.
0:00:23 He does not just parrot back questions.
0:00:24 If you ask him what he thinks,
0:00:26 he will not just ask you what you think.
0:00:29 He has strong opinions, positions.
0:00:33 He says it straight and first and foremost,
0:00:34 he has a toolkit.
0:00:39 He has practices that are incredibly helpful for couples
0:00:41 and his name has come up with various friends
0:00:44 ranging from Kevin Rose to Dr. Peter Atia
0:00:46 and he does not disappoint.
0:00:47 So in this episode,
0:00:49 because he is very, very hard to get a hold of
0:00:51 for direct client work,
0:00:55 you will get to in effect hear him like you would
0:00:58 in a real session and I’ve done real sessions with him.
0:01:00 So what you’ll hear in this episode and learn
0:01:02 among other things are number one,
0:01:05 that relationships are not always harmonious.
0:01:06 And that’ll be obvious to anyone who’s been married
0:01:08 for a while, for instance,
0:01:11 but it is a constant cycle of harmony to disharmony
0:01:13 and then repair.
0:01:16 So the critical skill set is repair.
0:01:19 And what I’m going to share in this episode,
0:01:20 because I was so impressed by it,
0:01:24 are a few chapters from his book, Fierce Intimacy.
0:01:27 And this will provide you with a map
0:01:29 for identifying losing strategies
0:01:32 and replacing them with winning strategies.
0:01:35 These are real approaches that you can use.
0:01:36 So a bit of background on Terry,
0:01:39 he is the creator of relational life therapy or RLT,
0:01:41 which underpins all of his books, courses, teachings
0:01:42 and so on.
0:01:44 He is also the author of five books,
0:01:46 including the New York Times bestseller Us,
0:01:48 subtitled Getting Past You and Me
0:01:51 to build a more loving relationship.
0:01:52 Last but not least,
0:01:54 I’ll throw in a little bonus and that is,
0:01:57 if you’d like an extra dose of calm, C-A-L-M,
0:01:59 I recommend checking out Henry Schuchman,
0:02:01 a past podcast guest
0:02:03 and one of only a few dozen masters
0:02:05 in the world authorized to teach Sam Bozen.
0:02:08 His app, The Way, has changed my life.
0:02:09 I’ve been using it daily, often twice a day
0:02:13 and it’s lowered my anxiety more than I thought possible.
0:02:16 And equivalent to a lot of the more aggressive things
0:02:19 I’ve done, like accelerated TMS and other therapies.
0:02:22 So try it out for 30 free sessions,
0:02:25 you can just visit TheWayApp.com/Tim,
0:02:28 that’s TheWayApp.com/Tim, no credit card required.
0:02:30 So you will have a very good feeling
0:02:33 for if it’s working for you after, I would say, 10 sessions.
0:02:37 You can find all things TerryReal at TerryReal.com,
0:02:40 that’s T-E-R-R-Y-R-E-A-L.com.
0:02:42 And now, please enjoy these chapters
0:02:47 from Fierce Intimacy by none other than TerryReal.
0:02:49 (upbeat music)
0:02:52 – This altitude I can run flat out for a half mile
0:02:54 before my hands start shaking.
0:02:56 – Can I answer your personal question?
0:02:58 – No, I would’ve seen it, but I don’t have time to answer.
0:02:59 – What if I did the opposite?
0:03:01 – I’m a cyber-nerdy organism,
0:03:03 living this year over a mental endoskeleton.
0:03:06 ♪ Me, Tim, Ferris, y’all ♪
0:03:13 – Let me talk for a moment
0:03:15 about the nature of relationships to begin with.
0:03:21 All relationships are an endless dance
0:03:25 of harmony, disharmony, and repair.
0:03:30 Closeness, disruption, and a return to closeness.
0:03:33 My paradigm for this came from the work
0:03:36 of researcher Ed Tronic at Harvard,
0:03:39 who was one of the first of a generation of people
0:03:42 to actually plunk down a video camera
0:03:45 and record what the transactions are
0:03:47 between mothers and infants.
0:03:50 Before infant observational research,
0:03:53 Freud had taught us that the relationship
0:03:56 between mothers and infants was an endless dance
0:03:59 of oceanic bliss.
0:04:02 Clearly, Freud had never talked to a mother.
0:04:06 The real relationship, as Tronic’s video recorded,
0:04:11 was this dance of closeness, disruption, and return.
0:04:15 The infant starts off molded in the mother’s arms,
0:04:17 totally relaxed, a little noodle,
0:04:20 and they’re in perfect harmony with each other.
0:04:23 Then some gas arises or a hunger pang
0:04:25 or there’s a noise in the street.
0:04:26 The baby goes nuts.
0:04:29 The baby goes through a flurry of disruption.
0:04:32 The mother tries to soothe the baby
0:04:34 to the degree to which the mother fails.
0:04:37 The mother goes through a flurry of disruption.
0:04:40 The two of them are absolutely at odds with each other,
0:04:42 trying to find harmony and peace.
0:04:45 And then the pacifier is accepted
0:04:48 or the nipple is taken or the gas passes
0:04:50 or the noise dies away
0:04:54 and the baby goes back to molded
0:04:57 and noodle and all is well.
0:05:01 This dance, harmony, disharmony, and repair
0:05:04 is the essential rhythm
0:05:09 of all human intimate relationships.
0:05:11 Harmony, disharmony, and repair,
0:05:14 closeness, disruption, and a return to closeness.
0:05:18 This dance can play out 20 times
0:05:21 during the course of one dinner conversation.
0:05:23 During the course of one dinner conversation,
0:05:26 your partner can look to you lovely,
0:05:30 homely, scintillating, boring,
0:05:33 just the way you can see yourself.
0:05:35 The psychoanalyst, Ethel Person,
0:05:39 once said that as you go through these endless variations
0:05:42 during the course of one dinner conversation,
0:05:45 handsome, ugly, scintillating, boring,
0:05:49 a normal person gets up at the end of that dinner
0:05:52 and says, that was a nice dinner.
0:05:55 A grandiose or narcissistic person gets up and says,
0:05:57 you know, if I was with the right partner,
0:06:00 these fluctuations wouldn’t be happening.
0:06:03 There’s nothing abnormal about this rhythm.
0:06:06 It’s the same rhythm in the relationship you have
0:06:11 with yourself, harmony, disharmony, and repair.
0:06:15 Closeness, disillusionment, and a return to closeness.
0:06:20 This relationship, harmony, disharmony, and repair
0:06:23 can also play out during the course of decades
0:06:27 in one marriage or one relationship.
0:06:31 I talk about three phases of love.
0:06:35 The harmony phase I call love without knowledge.
0:06:37 You can have a deep soul recognition
0:06:40 that this is the person who’s the dream of your life.
0:06:44 And you may know that, but you don’t know
0:06:46 what the bottom of their closet looks like,
0:06:49 or what they do with their underwear at night,
0:06:52 or how their bills are being paid.
0:06:56 You have a deep intimate connection with them
0:07:00 at one soulful level, but you don’t know them very well.
0:07:04 That harmony phase is inevitably followed
0:07:08 by disillusionment, disharmony.
0:07:10 And when you’re in the disillusionment phase,
0:07:13 I call that knowledge without love.
0:07:17 Now you see all your partners, warts and moles,
0:07:20 you know all about their imperfections,
0:07:22 but you don’t love them very much.
0:07:26 In fact, you’re pretty hurt and angry.
0:07:29 This is the dark night of the soul
0:07:33 that is a part of all relationships.
0:07:36 And it’s rarely acknowledged in our culture.
0:07:39 In our culture, just like a good body
0:07:43 is a 17-year-old body, and a good sex life
0:07:44 is the sex that you have
0:07:46 in the first three months of your relationship.
0:07:49 A good relationship is all harmony.
0:07:53 There’s nothing about disharmony and repair.
0:07:56 You know, just once, I’d like to be at a cocktail party,
0:08:00 and instead of hearing, oh, there’s Herbie and Sylvia.
0:08:02 They’ve been married 53 years,
0:08:06 and they have the same wonderful, passionate sex life
0:08:07 that they had in their 20s.
0:08:08 They never fight.
0:08:11 They’re always, just once instead of that,
0:08:15 I’d like to hear, oh, there’s Herbie and Sylvia.
0:08:17 They actually separated a couple of three times
0:08:18 during the course of their marriage.
0:08:20 He had an affair while they were separated.
0:08:23 She’s really never quite completely gotten over it,
0:08:26 but they’ve managed to survive, endure,
0:08:29 and be with each other and not lose their grip.
0:08:34 I think they’re really a loving pair, aren’t they cute?
0:08:37 Just once, I’d like to hear that, but you don’t.
0:08:41 Disharmony, disillusionment is rarely acknowledged.
0:08:43 No one tells you how dark it is.
0:08:46 No one tells you how raw it is.
0:08:48 The great couples’ therapist,
0:08:50 some would say the father of couples’ therapy,
0:08:53 James Frimo, wrote back in the ’50s
0:08:56 when it was assumed that the person you were sleeping with
0:08:58 was your spouse, by the way.
0:09:01 Frimo wrote, the day you turn over in bed,
0:09:04 look at the person next to you and realize
0:09:06 this is a dreadful mistake.
0:09:08 You have been had.
0:09:11 The one you fell in love with is not the one
0:09:13 you’re spending your life with.
0:09:18 That day says Frimo is the first day of your real marriage.
0:09:22 Harmony and then disillusionment.
0:09:24 Knowledge without love.
0:09:25 It’s dark.
0:09:26 It’s raw.
0:09:27 It’s desperate.
0:09:29 You feel very alone.
0:09:31 You feel betrayed.
0:09:32 You feel had.
0:09:34 Guess what?
0:09:36 That’s normal.
0:09:38 That doesn’t mean you’re in a bad marriage
0:09:40 or a bad long-term relationship.
0:09:41 It means you’re married.
0:09:47 It is an integral part of all relationships.
0:09:50 For over 20 years, I’ve gone around the country
0:09:52 talking to people about what I call
0:09:55 normal marital hatred.
0:09:56 And you know what?
0:09:59 Not one person has gone backstage and said to me,
0:10:01 “Terry, what do you mean by that?”
0:10:06 Normal marital hatred is part of the deal.
0:10:09 The trick is getting from that dark night
0:10:11 back into the light again,
0:10:14 moving from disharmony into repair.
0:10:17 Disharmony into repair.
0:10:19 What is repair?
0:10:21 Knowing love.
0:10:22 Mature love.
0:10:27 In this phase, you also see your partner’s warts and molds,
0:10:29 but you choose to love them anyway.
0:10:31 They are worth it.
0:10:34 The good things you’re getting outweigh the bad.
0:10:37 Now, if you’re in a place
0:10:40 where that disharmony phase is really calling to you
0:10:45 and you’re thinking, “Should I stay or should I go?”
0:10:47 I have a tool for you.
0:10:51 And I like to interrupt whatever the lecture is
0:10:54 to actually give you a concrete tool you might use.
0:10:56 For those of you who are wondering
0:10:58 whether you should stay or you should go,
0:10:59 here’s the tool.
0:11:02 I call it a relational reckoning.
0:11:04 Relational reckoning.
0:11:08 Relational reckoning is a question,
0:11:12 a question that you ask yourself, and it’s simply this.
0:11:16 Am I getting enough in this relationship
0:11:21 to make grieving what I’m not getting worth my while?
0:11:25 Am I getting enough in this relationship
0:11:30 to offset the pain of what’s wrong and what’s lacking?
0:11:34 And grieve you will.
0:11:36 We long for perfection.
0:11:39 We all long for gods and goddesses
0:11:41 who will never let us down.
0:11:43 But real relationships, of course,
0:11:47 are about the collision of your human imperfection
0:11:49 with your partners and how you manage it.
0:11:52 I wouldn’t want a perfect relationship.
0:11:56 The collision of my humanity with yours is the guts,
0:12:00 the stuff of intimacy itself.
0:12:02 Harmony, disharmony, repair.
0:12:07 How do we get from disharmony to repair?
0:12:10 That’s where the skills come in.
0:12:14 And that’s where most of us lose our way.
0:12:18 Because it’s only the functional adult part of us
0:12:20 that will turn to skills.
0:12:23 And what happens to the disharmony phase
0:12:25 is that we are triggered.
0:12:28 Early wounds, old family of origin dramas
0:12:30 come to the surface.
0:12:33 We take our eyes off the prize.
0:12:36 We stop thinking about making things better
0:12:38 between us and the partner we love.
0:12:43 And instead, we are taken over by adaptive child strategies,
0:12:47 by different agendas.
0:12:50 And actually, I sat down one day
0:12:53 and figured out what they were.
0:12:55 They’re not infinite.
0:12:56 They’re only five of them.
0:13:00 Here are the five losing strategies.
0:13:03 Being right, controlling your partner,
0:13:05 unbridled self-expression,
0:13:09 retaliation, and withdrawal.
0:13:14 Being right, control, unbridled self-expression,
0:13:17 retaliation, and withdrawal.
0:13:19 Let’s take each of them in turn.
0:13:22 Being right.
0:13:28 How many of you have ever tried to “solve”
0:13:30 or “resolve” an issue
0:13:34 by sorting out which of the two of you was correct?
0:13:36 Who remembered it correctly?
0:13:38 Or whose feelings were valid?
0:13:43 Or who has the correct perspective on this issue?
0:13:46 What’s objectively true?
0:13:48 How well did that work for you?
0:13:49 You know what?
0:13:53 Trying to solve an issue by figuring out who’s right
0:13:56 is using the scientific method
0:13:59 to solve your relational problems.
0:14:01 I have a warm spot in my heart for it.
0:14:04 It does not work.
0:14:06 As we talk together,
0:14:10 you’re going to be asked to swallow a few bitter pills.
0:14:12 And here’s one of the first ones.
0:14:13 Ready?
0:14:18 Objective reality has no place in personal relationships.
0:14:23 Objective reality doesn’t matter.
0:14:25 The relational answer to the question who’s right
0:14:27 and who’s wrong is who cares.
0:14:31 What matters is,
0:14:33 how are the two of us going to work like a team
0:14:37 and solve this issue in a way that we can both live with?
0:14:42 When you’re about trying to resolve your issue
0:14:44 of who’s right and who’s wrong,
0:14:47 you’re trying to resolve your differences
0:14:49 by eradicating them.
0:14:51 Let’s come up with one version
0:14:53 of what the correct issue is here.
0:14:57 And of course, when I do that with my wife, Belinda,
0:15:01 she has an incredibly pathological pesky way
0:15:03 of thinking that her version happens
0:15:06 to be the one we should settle on.
0:15:07 Poor woman.
0:15:11 What being right leads you into as a couple
0:15:15 is what I call perception battles or objectivity battles.
0:15:16 You know what?
0:15:19 Last night when we were at the Indian restaurant
0:15:20 and you yelled at the waiter,
0:15:22 “Honey, I didn’t yell at the waiter.
0:15:24 I was being emphatic.”
0:15:26 No, sweetheart, you weren’t emphatic.
0:15:27 You were yelling.
0:15:29 No, I was emphatic.
0:15:32 Yelling, emphatic, yelling, emphatic.
0:15:34 Well, you know what, dear?
0:15:36 It so happens there was an audiologist sitting
0:15:39 at the table next to us with an instrument
0:15:41 that measured your decibel level
0:15:45 and compared it to the norm of restaurant conversation.
0:15:47 It’s a loser.
0:15:50 It’s a dog chasing its own tail.
0:15:52 Trying to sort out your differences
0:15:55 by figuring out who’s right and who’s wrong
0:15:58 is an endless losing strategy.
0:16:01 At its most extreme,
0:16:05 being right becomes self-righteous indignation.
0:16:09 And self-righteous indignation is toxic in a relationship.
0:16:11 There’s no place for it.
0:16:13 There’s no need for it.
0:16:14 It does damage.
0:16:18 Self-righteous indignation is not just I’m right.
0:16:20 It’s also you’re wrong.
0:16:23 It’s intrinsically shaming.
0:16:25 Otherwise, I wouldn’t be indignant.
0:16:28 I’m indignant because you’re such a jerk.
0:16:31 Lose this losing strategy.
0:16:33 Being right will never work.
0:16:37 The second losing strategy
0:16:41 is trying to control your partner.
0:16:45 Trying to get your partner to see this or that,
0:16:46 to do this or that,
0:16:50 is always intrinsically one-up and condescending.
0:16:53 Who are you to tell another adult
0:16:56 what they should or shouldn’t be doing?
0:17:00 There are two forms of an attempt to control.
0:17:01 There’s direct control.
0:17:04 Sit down, shut up, and do what I tell you.
0:17:08 And there’s indirect control, also called manipulation.
0:17:10 Now, let me ask you.
0:17:14 Which sex do you think specializes in direct control?
0:17:16 You’re right.
0:17:18 It’s a male thing.
0:17:23 Often to great detriment, even at times abuse.
0:17:29 And, sorry, which sex tends toward indirect control
0:17:31 or manipulation?
0:17:33 Yes, it’s women.
0:17:38 Now look, women are not relational angels either.
0:17:42 It is part of the traditional female role
0:17:45 to be indirect and manipulative.
0:17:49 One of the things I say is that leading men and women
0:17:53 into increased intimacy is synonymous
0:17:55 with leading them out of patriarchy,
0:17:58 out of traditional gender roles for both.
0:18:01 Because men learn to close their hearts
0:18:05 and women learn to close their voices.
0:18:09 You can’t blame a group for exercising indirect control
0:18:12 when direct control has been blocked.
0:18:15 But nevertheless, manipulation is part
0:18:17 of the traditional female role.
0:18:21 I don’t know how many of you ever seen the movie
0:18:23 My Big Fat Greek Wedding.
0:18:26 But you know, when you get into relational recovery,
0:18:29 the culture at large finds things amusing or funny.
0:18:32 And you are, frankly, somewhat appalled.
0:18:37 Remember the scene where the mother triumphantly states,
0:18:41 man is the head of the family, but woman is the neck.
0:18:44 And where the neck moves, the head moves.
0:18:46 Everybody thought that was adorable.
0:18:48 I thought it was, frankly, appalling.
0:18:52 It’s a pin to the power of manipulation.
0:18:57 Men have a lot of reasons for mistrusting women.
0:19:00 And many of them are about men and about men’s pathologies.
0:19:02 But this one is real.
0:19:05 Men mistrust women because they feel played by them.
0:19:08 They feel managed by them.
0:19:11 And it takes a lot to help a woman move out
0:19:16 of managing their man to a place of forthrightness,
0:19:18 of telling the truth and taking them on.
0:19:22 It’s a scary thing to do for a lot of women,
0:19:26 but it beats manipulation and control hands down.
0:19:31 You know, short of a gun to the head,
0:19:34 I don’t believe that anybody gets to control anybody.
0:19:36 It’s a dance.
0:19:39 One person acts in a bullying manner,
0:19:41 and the other person relents.
0:19:44 It’s a contract between the two of them.
0:19:48 The person who’s relenting is not being made to relent.
0:19:51 We don’t do victims in relational work.
0:19:56 The person who relents relents because they choose to.
0:20:01 So there is no such thing as an absolute ability to control.
0:20:06 I’ll tell you, the person who had that one down
0:20:08 was Mahatma Gandhi.
0:20:10 Gandhi knew that if you were willing
0:20:12 to sacrifice your life,
0:20:16 no one could have any control over you whatsoever.
0:20:19 That is the core of civil disobedience,
0:20:22 which brought down an empire.
0:20:27 So control is an illusion, but it’s a costly illusion.
0:20:30 You may not really control your partner.
0:20:33 You can act like you’re controlling your partner.
0:20:35 You may win the battle.
0:20:37 You will lose the war.
0:20:39 Can I tell you why?
0:20:40 Ready?
0:20:42 Here’s a big spiritual truth.
0:20:45 When I do this in a workshop,
0:20:47 I actually ask people to give me a drum roll.
0:20:50 So in your mind’s eye, give me a drum roll.
0:20:51 Here it is.
0:20:55 People don’t like being controlled.
0:20:57 You wanna hear that again?
0:20:59 People don’t like being controlled.
0:21:02 You can bully your way through and wind up
0:21:06 at the Chinese restaurant instead of the Japanese restaurant
0:21:08 and get your way in the short run,
0:21:12 but there will be payback in resentment.
0:21:15 Every time your partner goes beyond their limits
0:21:18 and yields to you in ways they don’t really want to,
0:21:21 trust there will be an underbelly.
0:21:22 There will be payback.
0:21:25 It’s not in your interest,
0:21:29 whether the control quote unquote works or doesn’t work,
0:21:32 it in reality never works.
0:21:33 Give it up.
0:21:39 The third losing strategy is one of my personal favorites,
0:21:41 unbridled self-expression.
0:21:43 Ventilating.
0:21:46 It’s not just you did this today,
0:21:47 but you did this today,
0:21:49 you did the same thing a week ago,
0:21:52 you did other things three weeks ago,
0:21:54 10 years ago you did this, that and the other thing,
0:21:58 you never, you always, you are,
0:22:00 I feel so bad about.
0:22:04 I call this the barf bag approach to intimacy.
0:22:05 Blah.
0:22:09 Here, hold this, I feel so much better.
0:22:12 Listen, bringing in every past offense
0:22:17 that remotely ties into the current issue is not a winner.
0:22:22 Throwing in the kitchen sink is not going to get you anywhere.
0:22:24 And I’ll tell you why.
0:22:25 This is kind of interesting.
0:22:29 Functional moves in a relationship
0:22:32 are moves that empower your partner
0:22:34 to come through for you, right?
0:22:36 You want them to change.
0:22:38 Functional moves on your side
0:22:40 are moves that invite them to change.
0:22:42 Functional moves in a car
0:22:44 are moves that get the car to go.
0:22:47 Dysfunctional moves in a relationship
0:22:50 are moves that render your partner helpless.
0:22:53 The more helpless you render your partner,
0:22:57 the dirtier and nastier the move is gonna feel.
0:23:01 So you tell somebody what they didn’t do today,
0:23:03 they can do something about it.
0:23:06 You tell them what they didn’t do today,
0:23:09 two days ago, three years ago, five years ago,
0:23:12 there’s a lot less they can do about it.
0:23:14 At this point, they’re starting to feel helpless
0:23:16 and helpless always means resentful.
0:23:21 You tell them what they did two, three, four years ago
0:23:24 and then you move into what I call trend talk.
0:23:26 You always, you never.
0:23:29 You always like this, you’ll never do this
0:23:32 and you’re pounding the guy or gal into the ground.
0:23:34 There’s really nothing they can do about it.
0:23:38 And then the next step in most escalations is character.
0:23:41 You did this, you’ve done it before,
0:23:44 you always, you never, you are a.
0:23:45 You’re basically a slob.
0:23:48 You’re basically a witch like your mother.
0:23:52 You’re basically a selfish jerk like your dad.
0:23:56 That is truly nasty and truly helplessness engendering.
0:24:00 You know, this is something the field of psychotherapy
0:24:03 has been a great aider and a better of.
0:24:07 The idea here is that you either get it off your chest
0:24:11 or you somehow inhibit it to your detriment.
0:24:14 You either express it or you’re suppress it.
0:24:15 That’s Freud.
0:24:19 You know, when Freud was writing,
0:24:23 the great metaphor of the time was the internal steam engine.
0:24:25 It was the industrial revolution,
0:24:29 just like computers today are the great metaphor of our time.
0:24:32 The steam engine was then, and if you read Freud,
0:24:35 the human psyche looks like a steam engine.
0:24:39 Energy gets dammed up over here and leaks out over there,
0:24:42 gets suppressed over here and explodes over there.
0:24:45 It’s like we’re a hydraulic machine.
0:24:48 It doesn’t work like that in real life.
0:24:51 If you don’t express every emotion you’re feeling,
0:24:55 trust me, your ears will not fall off your head.
0:24:56 I can prove it to you.
0:24:59 Look, how many of you are parents?
0:25:02 If you’re a parent and you’re listening to this program,
0:25:05 ask yourself this question and be honest.
0:25:07 How many times when I’ve been interacting
0:25:10 with little Johnny or little Sally,
0:25:13 have I wanted to throw the bugger out the window?
0:25:15 How many times have I wanted to haul off
0:25:17 and yell and scream and carry on
0:25:20 at my impossible demonic child?
0:25:22 If you’re honest, there are lots of them.
0:25:27 Do you do it? Sometimes you may yell more than you want to,
0:25:29 but mostly you contain yourself.
0:25:33 That’s a good example of using that containing boundary.
0:25:35 You don’t yell and scream and call your kids
0:25:39 all sorts of mean and nasty names if you’re a healthy parent,
0:25:42 even though you may have the impulse to do so.
0:25:44 Okay, so you’ve just spent your time,
0:25:46 your day, with your child,
0:25:48 who’s been really impossible that day
0:25:51 and you’ve really wanted to just be angry
0:25:54 and expressive to them, but you’ve controlled yourself.
0:25:57 When your partner comes home and relieves you,
0:26:00 do you say to them, look, I need to go into a quiet closet
0:26:03 and yell and scream for 15 minutes
0:26:04 to get this off my chest?
0:26:08 I’ve been suppressing it all day? Of course you don’t.
0:26:11 You know that not doing that to your child
0:26:14 is just part of being a grownup.
0:26:17 Those are not pent up emotions.
0:26:21 Those are emotions that you’ve chosen not to express
0:26:25 because it’s not appropriate for you or the child.
0:26:26 Well, guess what?
0:26:30 It’s not appropriate for you and your partner either.
0:26:35 I will give you a format for complaining about your partner
0:26:37 as we go along this program.
0:26:41 Trust me, it is very rigid.
0:26:45 It is very structured and it’s very brief.
0:26:50 Ventilating ad nauseam is not a winning strategy.
0:26:53 Neither is excessive sharing.
0:26:55 I remember a guy walked into my office
0:26:58 and looked at his wife and said,
0:27:02 “You know, honey, as sexy as you are,
0:27:03 “for all these years,
0:27:07 “I’ve always been secretly attracted to your sister.
0:27:10 “Gee, it’s great to get that off my chest.
0:27:13 “Yeah, great for him.
0:27:15 “His wife wasn’t having a good day.
0:27:18 “You know what, use that containing boundary.
0:27:20 “Keep it to yourself.
0:27:24 “Don’t be immoderate in your speech to your partner.
0:27:26 “Be an adult.
0:27:30 “Unbridled self-expression is no favor to anybody.
0:27:31 “Knock it off.”
0:27:36 The fourth losing strategy is another one of my favorites,
0:27:41 retaliation, revenge, getting even.
0:27:44 I don’t get hurt, I get even.
0:27:48 I often call one of my great mentors, P.M. L.L.D.,
0:27:51 our lady of a thousand homilies,
0:27:53 because she had a terrific repertoire
0:27:57 of wonderful, pithy phrases and saying.
0:27:59 And one of my favorites is what she called
0:28:03 offending from the victim position, OFF,
0:28:06 offending from the victim position.
0:28:08 It’s about retaliation.
0:28:11 It’s about self-righteous indignation.
0:28:14 It’s about saying, “Well, you hurt me,
0:28:17 “so I get to hurt you at least as much if not more,
0:28:20 “and I have no shame or compunction about doing that
0:28:21 “because I’m your victim.”
0:28:26 Let me tell you, I believe offending from the victim
0:28:29 accounts for 90% of the world’s violence.
0:28:34 That and the other 10% is just a raw grab for resources.
0:28:39 Offending from the victim position is the cycle of violence.
0:28:41 You killed my brother, I’ll burn down your village.
0:28:44 You burn down my village, I’ll rape your grandmother.
0:28:48 You rape my grandmother, and on and on it goes.
0:28:51 Offending from the victim position puts you
0:28:56 in the crazy position of being, in fact,
0:28:59 a perpetrator and offender,
0:29:01 while featuring yourself as a victim.
0:29:04 This is nuts.
0:29:07 Here’s what I have to tell you.
0:29:12 Every offender thinks that he’s a victim.
0:29:17 Every perpetrator thinks that she herself
0:29:20 has been perpetrated and moved into self-righteous
0:29:23 indignation and revenge.
0:29:29 It was my wife, Belinda, who gave me the best framework
0:29:33 for understanding retaliation and understanding it
0:29:35 with a more empathic response.
0:29:39 She said that retaliation was really
0:29:41 a perverse form of communication.
0:29:46 That the essence of the retaliatory agenda,
0:29:49 the punchline was when the other partner falls
0:29:53 on his or her knees and says, oh my God, I get it now.
0:29:55 I understand what I did to you
0:29:58 because I’m feeling the same thing now.
0:30:00 Please forgive me.
0:30:02 Forget it.
0:30:05 Punitiveness, punishing somebody,
0:30:08 will never bring them into increased accountability.
0:30:12 But you know, the more unaccountable somebody is,
0:30:15 the more vengeful we tend to get.
0:30:17 Even in our legal system,
0:30:19 if one person appears before the judge
0:30:22 and seems sincerely contrite
0:30:25 and another person acts like they don’t care a damn,
0:30:27 the person who acts like they don’t care a damn
0:30:29 will get a stiffer sentence.
0:30:33 We tend to be more punitive as people are less acknowledging.
0:30:35 We’ll get back to that later.
0:30:36 But you know what?
0:30:39 Retaliation is a loser.
0:30:41 You will never bring somebody
0:30:45 into increased accountability by hurting them.
0:30:47 I would like to get that message
0:30:49 across to our penal system.
0:30:53 There are two forms of retaliation,
0:30:56 direct retaliation, which is rage,
0:31:01 or indirect retaliation, which is passive aggression.
0:31:04 The covert expression of anger,
0:31:07 not by what you do, but by what you don’t do,
0:31:09 by what you withhold.
0:31:12 Here’s passive aggression.
0:31:13 One of my kids when they were little
0:31:15 told me this silly joke.
0:31:18 The masochist says to the sadist,
0:31:19 “Hit me, hit me.”
0:31:23 And the sadist smiles and says, “No.”
0:31:25 That’s passive aggression.
0:31:28 It’s the way I was when I was behind a wall
0:31:30 after Belinda and I would have a big fight.
0:31:32 And she would say, “Isn’t it great
0:31:34 to be close to each other again?”
0:31:36 And I would go, “Sure.”
0:31:39 That’s passive aggression.
0:31:41 It’s retaliation.
0:31:44 And whether your retaliation is direct,
0:31:47 yelling, screaming, throwing things,
0:31:50 hurting your partner the way you think they hurt you,
0:31:52 or whether it’s indirect
0:31:56 through a kind of a tight-assed non-giving,
0:31:59 retaliation never works.
0:32:01 It will not get you what you want.
0:32:04 Your partner will not move into accountability.
0:32:08 And it is a classic losing strategy
0:32:11 that does enormous damage in your relationship.
0:32:16 The final losing strategy is withdrawal.
0:32:18 And I make a distinction between
0:32:20 passive aggressive retaliation,
0:32:22 which may look like withdrawal,
0:32:25 but it’s really screw you,
0:32:27 versus actual withdrawal,
0:32:29 where you leave the field.
0:32:31 It’s refusing to engage.
0:32:34 You can refuse to engage about an issue.
0:32:36 We’re not gonna talk about little Timmy,
0:32:39 or we’re not gonna talk about sex.
0:32:40 It can be an opting out
0:32:43 of a particular aspect of your relationship,
0:32:47 like physical affection or erotic joy.
0:32:50 It can be checking out of the relationship entirely.
0:32:55 People will move into withdrawal.
0:32:57 They will give up on an issue
0:33:00 or on a particular aspect of the relationship,
0:33:03 and think that they’re moving into acceptance.
0:33:05 Well, I’m just accepting
0:33:08 that we can’t talk about our parenting,
0:33:10 and I’ve made my peace with that.
0:33:11 No, you haven’t.
0:33:13 You’re lying to yourself.
0:33:16 The trick is, are you resentful?
0:33:20 If you’re resentful, you are not truly into acceptance.
0:33:23 If there’s a shred of resentment,
0:33:26 move back into engagement and duke it out.
0:33:27 Fight the good fight.
0:33:30 Withdrawal is not acceptance.
0:33:33 Also, withdrawal is different
0:33:35 from taking healthy space,
0:33:38 from responsible distance taking.
0:33:42 Withdrawal is unilateral and it’s a rupture.
0:33:46 Here’s a skill that I can teach you.
0:33:48 When I work with couples,
0:33:52 I make a distinction between provocative distance taking,
0:33:55 withdrawal, and responsible distance taking.
0:33:59 Withdrawal or provocative distance taking is just,
0:34:00 I’m taking it.
0:34:01 I’m out of here.
0:34:03 No, I’m not gonna do it.
0:34:05 This conversation’s over.
0:34:07 That’s withdrawal.
0:34:10 Responsible distance taking has two parts to it.
0:34:12 I’m taking distance.
0:34:15 Here’s for how long.
0:34:17 Here’s when I come back.
0:34:20 And here’s why I’m doing it.
0:34:23 There’s an explanation, and there’s a promise of return.
0:34:29 This does a lot to quell your partner’s anxieties.
0:34:31 It is not a rupture.
0:34:33 It is a break.
0:34:35 But you have to do it responsibly.
0:34:37 Take care of your partner.
0:34:39 Just don’t be unilateral.
0:34:42 Be accountable in your distance taking.
0:34:44 I’m taking distance.
0:34:46 Here’s why I’m taking distance.
0:34:48 And here’s when I’m coming back.
0:34:53 Being right, controlling your partner,
0:34:58 unbridled self-expression, retaliation, and withdrawal.
0:35:02 None of these, and no combination,
0:35:04 will ever get you more of what you want
0:35:06 in your relationship.
0:35:07 You know why?
0:35:09 You’re not trying.
0:35:10 I have a saying, for example.
0:35:12 You can be right or you can be married.
0:35:14 What’s more important to you?
0:35:16 You ask that adaptive child part of you,
0:35:17 what’s more important?
0:35:19 Buddy, it’s right down the line.
0:35:22 Who cares about the relationship?
0:35:24 Once your adaptive child takes over,
0:35:27 losing strategies reign.
0:35:29 And you have lost your perspective.
0:35:31 You’ve lost your compass.
0:35:34 You have not kept your eyes on the prize,
0:35:37 which is remembering that the person you’re speaking to
0:35:38 is someone you love.
0:35:40 And the reason why you’re speaking
0:35:42 is to make things better.
0:35:46 Instead, you’re speaking to be right,
0:35:51 or to control, or to vent, or to hurt, or to withdraw.
0:35:57 Okay, it’s time to out yourself once again.
0:36:01 You know, a lot of what we’ve been doing so far,
0:36:04 I call shaking hands with your adaptive child.
0:36:08 It’s about getting to know that adaptive child part of you
0:36:12 that can run amok in your relationships.
0:36:14 It’s really important to understand where you are,
0:36:17 and what that child part of you is all about,
0:36:20 in order for you to encircle that child,
0:36:22 and help manage them.
0:36:26 So let’s take a look at what we call your LSP,
0:36:29 your losing strategy profile.
0:36:32 Take a moment and think, or if you’re home,
0:36:37 whip out a piece of paper, and a pen, and write this down.
0:36:42 What are my most usual losing strategies?
0:36:45 Could be one, I usually withdraw.
0:36:47 Could be a combination.
0:36:51 I move into being right in unbridled self-expression,
0:36:55 or I move into being right in controlling my partner.
0:36:59 It could be a two-step, but don’t get too complicated.
0:37:03 Most two-steps are, I’m right, or controlling,
0:37:07 or vending, or retaliating, that’s the first step,
0:37:09 and when that doesn’t work, I withdraw.
0:37:13 That’s a usual two-step pattern.
0:37:15 What is your losing strategy profile?
0:37:18 What is the one or combination of losing strategies
0:37:22 you will fall prey to when the heat of the moment
0:37:25 has knocked you out of your functional adult?
0:37:27 Take a moment and note that.
0:37:42 Now, you know, as acute as you might be
0:37:47 in understanding your own human limitations,
0:37:52 we tend to be even more perspicacious about our partners.
0:37:54 So, sometimes when I’m doing these exercises,
0:37:56 I actually ask people to diagnose their partner
0:37:58 before they diagnose themselves,
0:38:00 because partners are easier to do.
0:38:02 But you just did the heroic job
0:38:05 of looking at yourself squarely in the mirror
0:38:08 and looking at your usual losing strategy.
0:38:12 Now, it’s time for those of you who are in a current relationship
0:38:15 to look at your partner’s losing strategy.
0:38:17 What does he or she do when they lose it
0:38:19 in the heat of the moment?
0:38:25 Being right, control, ventilation, retaliation, or withdrawal.
0:38:39 Now, the simple task is to put these two together.
0:38:40 Remember the vicious circle?
0:38:44 Remember that the more the more that dance?
0:38:46 Well, here’s the simplest way of unearthing
0:38:49 the more the more between you and your partner.
0:38:53 The more I fill in the blank of your losing strategy,
0:38:56 the more he or she fill in the blank
0:38:58 of his or her losing strategy.
0:39:02 The more I am about being right,
0:39:04 the more my partner ventilates.
0:39:06 And the more my partner ventilates,
0:39:08 the more I’m about being right.
0:39:10 The more I try to control my partner,
0:39:12 the more my partner withdraws.
0:39:13 And the more they withdraw,
0:39:16 the more I try to control them.
0:39:18 The simplest way of unearthing the dynamic
0:39:22 between you and your partner is just put
0:39:25 your losing strategy profile up against theirs.
0:39:28 And you will get the dynamic, the dance,
0:39:30 the burying, the two of you.
0:39:35 Come out of these losing strategies.
0:39:37 Come out of the adaptive child
0:39:42 and move into your functional adult.
0:39:44 Move into the circle of health.
0:39:47 – Hey guys, this is Tim again,
0:39:49 just one more thing before you take off.
0:39:52 And that is Five Bullet Friday.
0:39:54 Would you enjoy getting a short email from me every Friday
0:39:57 that provides a little fun before the weekend?
0:39:59 Between one and a half and two million people subscribe
0:40:02 to my free newsletter, my super short newsletter
0:40:04 called Five Bullet Friday.
0:40:06 Easy to sign up, easy to cancel.
0:40:10 It is basically a half page that I send out every Friday
0:40:12 to share the coolest things I’ve found or discovered
0:40:14 or have started exploring over that week.
0:40:16 It’s kind of like my diary of cool things.
0:40:18 It often includes articles I’m reading,
0:40:22 books I’m reading, albums perhaps, gadgets, gizmos,
0:40:24 all sorts of tech tricks and so on.
0:40:26 They get sent to me by my friends,
0:40:28 including a lot of podcast guests.
0:40:32 And these strange esoteric things end up in my field
0:40:36 and then I test them and then I share them with you.
0:40:39 So if that sounds fun, again, it’s very short,
0:40:41 a little tiny bite of goodness before you head off
0:40:43 for the weekend, something to think about.
0:40:45 If you’d like to try it out,
0:40:47 just go to tim.blog/friday, type that into your browser,
0:40:51 tim.blog/friday, drop in your email
0:40:53 and you’ll get the very next one.
0:40:54 Thanks for listening.
0:40:57 (upbeat music)
0:41:07 [BLANK_AUDIO]