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0:01:13 If I’m not doing work that matters to me, I eventually start to wonder if my job matters
0:01:14 and then it gets really scary.
0:01:15 I start to wonder if I matter.
0:01:20 One of the three human needs that workers have to have met is meaning and purpose in
0:01:21 their work.
0:01:26 Two is recognition for their unique contribution and three is a relationship with their leader.
0:01:31 Those three needs, those are all heart stuff and that just shows our humans.
0:01:32 Ken Coleman.
0:01:36 He’s a Ramsay personality and number one best-selling author of The Proximity Principle.
0:01:39 Career expert and a national radio host of the Ken Coleman show.
0:01:44 A nationally syndicated radio show where he helps people discover what they were born
0:01:45 to do.
0:01:49 What are some of the feelings that people have when you’re not in the right career?
0:01:52 So number one, there’s a feeling of loss.
0:01:55 They wouldn’t define it as loss, but it really is a loss.
0:01:58 It’s an emotional loss because you feel like you’ve lost time.
0:02:02 What that looks like is that discouragement, you get anger at yourself, things haven’t
0:02:03 worked out the way you want to.
0:02:06 I also think there’s a fear of the unknown.
0:02:10 Talk to us about the problem of being disengaged and bored at work right now.
0:02:11 So the answer is…
0:02:30 Young end-profiters, I am pumped for today’s conversation because I feel like it’s going
0:02:32 to really change lives.
0:02:35 Many of you guys tuning in right now are unhappy with your jobs.
0:02:37 You’re frustrated with your careers.
0:02:41 You’re bored at work and you want to figure out how you can find a career that really
0:02:43 fulfills you.
0:02:48 And for my entrepreneurs tuning in, you need to understand how your employees are motivated,
0:02:52 what’s going to drive them to be engaged at work and be productive.
0:02:56 And so it’s really a two-fold thing, whether you’re in your career right now, you want
0:03:00 to find your dream career, you want to figure out what you’re good at, what you should focus
0:03:05 on, or you’re an entrepreneur and you need to figure out how to keep your team motivated
0:03:06 and productive.
0:03:08 This episode is going to uncover that for you.
0:03:10 Our guest today is Ken Coleman.
0:03:13 He’s known as America’s career coach.
0:03:17 He’s also the best-selling author of Paycheck to Purpose and the Proximity Principle.
0:03:22 And he’s a very well-known radio host of the Ken Coleman show, as well as the co-host
0:03:24 of the Ramsey show.
0:03:26 Amazing guest, so energetic.
0:03:28 I can’t wait for this conversation.
0:03:31 Without further ado, Ken, welcome to Young and Profiting Podcast.
0:03:32 Thanks for having me, Hala.
0:03:33 I’m excited.
0:03:36 I’m excited for this conversation too.
0:03:39 So for everybody tuning in, you are right now living your dream career.
0:03:44 You are a host of a nationally syndicated radio show.
0:03:50 You are frequently co-hosting on the Ramsey show, which is an uber popular podcast.
0:03:53 You’re known as America’s career coach.
0:03:56 But there was a point in your life where you were pretty unfulfilled.
0:04:02 So I thought that we could start in your early career days, talk to us about your first soul-sucking
0:04:03 job.
0:04:07 Well, it’s funny that you asked that because it was working for me.
0:04:14 I was in my late 20s and I was on a path that I had carved out or certainly envisioned
0:04:16 when I was 16.
0:04:24 And I was in the process, I thought, of gaining a legitimate business resume.
0:04:30 And part of this journey was stepping out on my own so that I could take the next step.
0:04:37 And I realized that the thing that I was preparing for, a potential run for political office,
0:04:39 that was no longer the goal.
0:04:43 And so here I am running the small business, which was just a means to an end, just a day
0:04:44 job.
0:04:46 But it was working for me.
0:04:47 But it was soul-sucking work.
0:04:48 I didn’t enjoy it.
0:04:51 It was in a sales role and I could always sell.
0:04:55 But it was a means to an end and then the end changed.
0:04:58 And when that changed, I realized I no longer wanted to be involved in politics.
0:05:01 I got disenfranchised with both sides of the aisle.
0:05:03 It’s just the whole process.
0:05:08 It just was no longer a place where I felt like I couldn’t make the difference that I
0:05:09 desired to make.
0:05:17 And so that was something that was shaking for me to my soul because I had been thinking
0:05:21 about this since the age of 16 and had made strides and had been involved in politics,
0:05:25 then got back out into the business world and was trying to build this caricature, if
0:05:29 you will, to be this impressive person that could potentially get elected.
0:05:33 And so when that changed, two things happened.
0:05:39 One, it left me wondering, if not this, then what?
0:05:42 And then the second thing that happened is I began to beat up myself and I felt like
0:05:43 I’d wasted all this time.
0:05:46 Here I am in my late 20s, bro, what are you doing?
0:05:48 I was really crushing myself.
0:05:51 You just pissed away 10 years.
0:05:54 Now here you are on the precipice of 30.
0:05:59 I know we have a younger audience, but 30 really freaked me out more so than any other
0:06:04 decade because it felt like I was now supposed to be certain things and this and this and
0:06:05 this.
0:06:06 And the time was ticking away.
0:06:08 You don’t think about it much in your 20s.
0:06:14 So that put me in a position where I was really discouraged and confused at the same time.
0:06:16 And that’s a dangerous place to be in.
0:06:22 And so I snapped out of it eventually and just began to work with some great life coaches,
0:06:27 people that I had access to and they gave me some exercises and I began just to walk
0:06:32 through some life mapping and went back and that’s when I figured out, ah, there’s a
0:06:33 different direction.
0:06:34 Yeah.
0:06:38 It’s so interesting that you were so focused on politics and I feel like a lot of people
0:06:39 are in this boat.
0:06:43 They’re younger and they decide, oh, I want to be a doctor for instance.
0:06:47 And then they go down this whole path and they go through school and then they become
0:06:51 a doctor and they hate it and they don’t know what to do and they feel like it’s too late.
0:06:53 I wasted so much time.
0:06:58 What are some of the feelings that people have when you’re not in the right career?
0:06:59 All right.
0:07:02 So number one, there’s a feeling of loss.
0:07:04 And this is deeper than most people.
0:07:07 I don’t think most people would say to me, are you and I, if we went on the street and
0:07:10 we started asking young people this or people that feel this, they wouldn’t, I don’t think
0:07:13 to find it as loss, but it really is a loss.
0:07:16 It’s an emotional loss because you feel like you’ve lost time.
0:07:20 So what that looks like is that discouragement.
0:07:21 There’s some anger.
0:07:24 If you get angry at yourself, maybe angry at others, you know, if things haven’t worked
0:07:32 out the way you want to, I also think there’s a lot of fear, fear of, okay, if I now pivot
0:07:35 and go after something else, what are other people going to say?
0:07:36 Maybe I got a degree in this.
0:07:37 I love your example.
0:07:38 You go to med school.
0:07:41 I mean, that’s a lot of time and money invested.
0:07:45 And by the way, we all know this in pretty much every society in the world.
0:07:47 Doctors are considered to be very prolific people.
0:07:50 They’re respected people for obvious reasons.
0:07:53 So now you’re dealing with fear of rejection.
0:07:55 What are my parents, my friends and family going to say?
0:07:58 What you’re walking away from being a doctor if you lost your mind?
0:08:03 That’s the fear of peers, the fear of rejection, if you will, fear of the unknown.
0:08:05 And that’s what I was dealing with.
0:08:09 Once I knew that politics wasn’t it, I was sitting in this fear of the unknown, which
0:08:13 I think Hala is the greatest fear that we as humans face.
0:08:18 This idea of if I’m walking in a dark cave and I can no longer see the hand in front
0:08:19 of my face.
0:08:20 It’s paralyzing.
0:08:25 If we’re driving in a car, a torrential downpour, the fear of what’s out there and
0:08:29 I don’t know what’s next is paralyzing.
0:08:30 That’s a big feeling.
0:08:33 And then I would say doubt, the cousin of fear.
0:08:37 Fear is I afraid of something bad happening if I move forward.
0:08:41 Doubt is I don’t believe something good will happen if I move forward.
0:08:44 There are cousins they like to hang out together and feed off of each other, but I think those
0:08:46 are the emotions people are feeling.
0:08:50 So let’s talk about how you discovered your dream career because now you have an awesome
0:08:51 career in broadcasting.
0:08:56 We actually have a lot of similarities in terms of how we got to our dream careers in
0:08:57 broadcasting.
0:09:03 So talk to us about this 10-year journey to get to the upper levels of broadcasting,
0:09:04 essentially.
0:09:08 Yeah, I’m glad you asked this because trial and error is really huge and the key word
0:09:09 here is trying.
0:09:14 I think the best way to get over doubt is to try something.
0:09:19 Because when we try, we figure out an actual measurement to see do I actually have any
0:09:20 potential.
0:09:25 You know, if I try to play golf, which I did a couple of years ago, I found out really
0:09:29 quickly what my potential is and it’s not good.
0:09:33 I’ve tried pickleball since and I’ve got a lot more potential in pickleball, right?
0:09:37 So we think of this in hobbies, but this is also true of our profession.
0:09:44 So the answer is I felt like I always had this desire to perform and it went back in
0:09:46 a life map and it goes real quick.
0:09:48 I went, okay, I always love performing.
0:09:50 As a kid, I was volunteering to be in the play.
0:09:52 I was a little bit of a class clown.
0:09:53 I wanted the pressure.
0:09:55 I would do things in front of the whole student body.
0:10:01 So I found the theme here that I actually like the pressure of people looking at me.
0:10:04 Sometimes we get on kids for that, but I think that’s a beautiful thing because most people
0:10:07 are terrified of public speaking more so than death.
0:10:08 We know this.
0:10:10 This is a piece of data that’s been out forever.
0:10:12 So I figured out, okay, I like to perform.
0:10:14 I like the pressure that comes with the performing.
0:10:18 So now I have to start to go, what type of performing do I want to do?
0:10:24 Do I want to be a corporate speaker and go out and speak and be a keynote speaker?
0:10:29 Do I want to go into some type of non-profit or ministry work where maybe I’m speaking
0:10:31 on behalf of a cause?
0:10:36 Do I want to go into hard news broadcasting where you’re looking at a teleprompter and
0:10:37 you’re just kind of reading?
0:10:39 Do I want to go into sports because I love sports?
0:10:41 Okay, I thought I wanted to run for office.
0:10:43 Do I want to go into political media?
0:10:49 And so I went down the list and sports kind of jumped out to me because I still love sports
0:10:50 and I love talking about sports.
0:10:53 So I tried it and I got into it and I did.
0:10:55 It wasn’t a major break, but I got some little breaks.
0:11:01 And what I figured out is that talking about sports was a form of entertainment and I wasn’t
0:11:03 motivated to entertain people.
0:11:10 That led me to realize that I want to communicate to encourage people, to coach people.
0:11:15 So it was a process of elimination, I’m giving you the super short process, but that’s when
0:11:20 I got to the point where I was like, “Okay, how can I now do broadcasting to encourage
0:11:23 to equip people?”
0:11:28 And that’s how I started to figure out, “Okay, there is an actual world out here where you
0:11:31 can communicate to help people transform their life.”
0:11:37 And the key to that was I loved the sports broadcasting, it was fun because I was performing.
0:11:40 But I really started to realize that if I do this every day, I’m going to get bored with
0:11:46 this pretty quick because I’m not deeply passionate about giving people my opinion on a sports
0:11:48 team organization or a league.
0:11:50 So there was a process of elimination.
0:11:55 And we’re going to talk all about why passion is so important, not just your talents and
0:11:56 things like that later on.
0:12:01 But what I think is so interesting with your story is that it wasn’t like that big of a
0:12:02 change.
0:12:07 Like if you think about it, being a politician, it’s like you’re still up there on a stage
0:12:12 and you’re still motivating people, you still have to use your voice and sometimes it’s
0:12:19 not necessarily like a 360 degree pivot, it’s just a slight pivot to a different career,
0:12:20 right?
0:12:21 Great analysis.
0:12:27 So for example, when I was developing my career, I wanted to be a singer my whole life and
0:12:31 I would perform, I always had a solo, I was always a star of the plays, I was writing
0:12:36 music in college and actually I started interning at Hot 97.
0:12:40 I would work there for free for three years and I was Angie Martinez’s assistant for
0:12:46 the reason of pushing my music at the station, not to become a personality.
0:12:50 And then I learned about radio and I loved it and I realized, hey, I don’t know if I’m
0:12:53 really going to be make it as a singer, but I could probably really make it as an on air
0:12:54 personality.
0:12:58 So I just pivoted slightly and used my voice in a different way.
0:13:01 And then same thing with podcasting, it was like a slight pivot.
0:13:05 So I think that’s important for people to understand, you don’t have to totally change
0:13:06 what you’re doing.
0:13:10 Just be that something is a little bit off with the career that you chose.
0:13:11 That’s incredible.
0:13:13 I love that you shared your story on this.
0:13:14 I hope your audience knows that.
0:13:18 If they don’t know it, they need to keep diving into that because what you did is you just
0:13:21 saw greater opportunity over here.
0:13:23 It didn’t make you less talented.
0:13:26 It didn’t make you less valuable to the world.
0:13:30 And I think in some ways we can see the value you’re providing now.
0:13:36 It’s hard to say, it’s hard to say whether or not you would touch lives and truly transform
0:13:41 and have a role in people’s transformation if you had made it as a big time artist.
0:13:43 So it’s fascinating to see that.
0:13:46 And I think that that’s a really key point.
0:13:48 I realized that there was a thread.
0:13:53 The thread was communicating on behalf of people.
0:13:59 I thought it was politics found out, nope, I can make way more difference over here if
0:14:02 I’m communicating in this lane on this issue.
0:14:06 So fun little exercise for people that may be in a position that you and I were both
0:14:08 in that I didn’t know back then, Holly.
0:14:11 So I’ve developed this now, coaching 10,000 people on the air.
0:14:13 Three little fun questions.
0:14:17 If you’re figuring out, it’s not this, what is it?
0:14:18 And Holly, you made a great point.
0:14:22 There’s going to be some similarities, even on the pivot, there’s going to be similarities.
0:14:23 So here’s how you figure it out.
0:14:26 Ask yourself, who are the people I want to help?
0:14:30 And think of this through a work contact, because all work, certainly honorable work,
0:14:31 helps people.
0:14:33 Who are the people I want to help?
0:14:37 Second question, what’s the problem or desire that they have?
0:14:42 And then the third question is, what’s the solution or solutions to that problem or
0:14:45 desire that I get excited about?
0:14:48 So real quick review, who are the people I want to help?
0:14:50 What problem or desire do they have?
0:14:53 What solution to that problem or desire do I get excited about?
0:14:54 This is where we ideate.
0:14:58 And this is where our heart, these are heart questions, these three questions are designed
0:15:00 to get the heart to open up.
0:15:05 And when the head, the brain, sees what the heart is pushing up to say, I want to help
0:15:06 these people.
0:15:09 So I want to help people who are struggling with substance abuse.
0:15:10 Great.
0:15:12 What’s the problem or desire they have?
0:15:16 Substance abuse, a destructive world life that traumatized them.
0:15:18 And so they reach out here, whatever.
0:15:20 So I want to help them through therapy.
0:15:21 I want to help them through whatever.
0:15:25 So the three questions are essentially the same question, but you’re coming at it from
0:15:29 three different vantage points and each answer builds on the other.
0:15:32 And by the way, you don’t have to ask them in that order.
0:15:36 You could be a person that goes, I know what kind of solutions I want to give the world.
0:15:37 And you go, okay, what is that?
0:15:38 I want a code.
0:15:39 Oh, great.
0:15:41 Who do you want to code for?
0:15:42 And you can reverse engineer.
0:15:44 Well, I want to code for kids and make video games.
0:15:45 Okay, great.
0:15:50 So that’s something that’s really helpful that I wish I had developed for myself years ago,
0:15:57 but now having coached people, those three questions help us go deep within so we can
0:16:02 see who we really are and where we can really contribute.
0:16:03 I love that.
0:16:08 And I think that’s super great advice, especially for people who are maybe a little bit older,
0:16:10 maybe in their thirties to be asking that question.
0:16:13 So I recently had an interview with Gary Vee.
0:16:18 And one of the things that he says is that in your twenties, it should be all about experimenting
0:16:20 and figuring out what you’re doing.
0:16:24 So I’m in my thirties now and I have a multi-million dollar company.
0:16:29 I have a podcast network, a social agency, a top 100 podcast.
0:16:35 And I attribute all this success because I experimented a lot when I was in my twenties.
0:16:37 I was working for free at a radio station.
0:16:38 I was blogging.
0:16:42 I was selling underground rapper showcase tickets.
0:16:43 I was working at the mall.
0:16:48 I was getting so much different experiences and I really didn’t have it figured out.
0:16:52 I had other friends who already had corporate careers when I was still trying to create
0:16:55 a blog site and do all these other things, right?
0:16:58 But I’m happy that I did that and I experimented.
0:17:02 And I know that you also did a lot of experimentation and working for free.
0:17:07 So talk to us about the importance of acquiring skills so you actually know what you’re good
0:17:09 at because you’ve got a test to know what you’re good at.
0:17:11 Yeah, that’s so true.
0:17:15 You have to figure out what you’re good at first because once we figure out what you
0:17:17 came into this world hardwired to do.
0:17:20 From a talent standpoint, I’ve got three teenagers.
0:17:25 Any parent can look at their kids and go, “This kid’s talented at this.
0:17:26 This kid’s…”
0:17:27 They just know.
0:17:28 We all know.
0:17:29 And you’ve been complimenting for this stuff your whole life.
0:17:33 So even the most doubtful person watching us right now and listening to us right now,
0:17:37 the most doubtful person you just down, your self-esteem is down, your confidence is low.
0:17:38 Can I just tell you something?
0:17:41 If you need to pick me up, I want you to just rewind your life.
0:17:44 And throughout your life, there have been times where people said, “You’re a natural
0:17:45 at that.”
0:17:46 Or, “That just comes so easy to you.
0:17:50 Maybe you saw your sibling struggle at it and you went, ‘Huh, it’s easy for me.
0:17:51 Here’s my point.”
0:17:59 Once we all truly get self-aware enough to go, “Okay, this is what I’m good at naturally.”
0:18:03 With education, I’m learning and experience doing.
0:18:08 I can take a talent and I can make it super, super sharp.
0:18:09 I can make it a skill.
0:18:12 I’m going to use an old school kind of example here.
0:18:13 You think of a potter.
0:18:17 If any of your audience has ever watched a potter make pottery, it’s fascinating to
0:18:18 me.
0:18:24 They take a lump of clay, they put it on the potter’s wheel and through water and their
0:18:31 force of their hands, working with the wheel, they shape this inanimate object of clay into
0:18:34 something extremely usable.
0:18:36 That’s the idea of taking a talent and turning it into a skill.
0:18:40 We start there and once we figure out what we’re good at and how we can turn that into
0:18:45 a sharpened skill, now we can see the world through the lens of, “I’ve got these tools.”
0:18:47 Think of them as power tools.
0:18:54 Not the old school handsaw, but we’re doing it in six seconds as opposed to six minutes.
0:19:00 Now I can see, “I have these tools and these tools, skills, do this.”
0:19:06 As I begin to see what these skills can do, then that allows me to do two things.
0:19:10 Number one, it allows me to build confidence.
0:19:11 Confidence is everything.
0:19:15 I’ll just tell you this as a guy who’s been blessed, and I mean this, to just coach people.
0:19:17 They’ve called in for years and it’s just mind blowing.
0:19:22 I have to coach them in about eight minutes, which is, that’s intense, but I tell you what
0:19:23 it’s taught me.
0:19:26 It’s taught me how to quickly discern what’s going on and get to the heart of the matter
0:19:27 fast.
0:19:31 What I’ve learned is just about every caller or every person I’ve coached from a live
0:19:35 stage, they’re sitting there with an alternative they think is the right choice and they’re
0:19:38 ultimately looking to me for confidence.
0:19:39 That’s what I know.
0:19:42 I’m speaking about confidence being really, really important.
0:19:45 Once I’m confident, I know what I can do, I’m confident.
0:19:46 That’s what happens.
0:19:49 Then clarity starts to come in.
0:19:50 Look at me.
0:19:52 I suck in math and science skills.
0:19:55 That part of my brain, I should have my brain studied when I died because it’s dark.
0:19:58 It’s just math and science really hard for me.
0:20:03 I was always good in the English or the history, much more verbal guy.
0:20:06 If I’m looking at me and I’m going, “What do I do best?”
0:20:10 Communication, verbal skills, I tell you what I’m not going to be doing.
0:20:13 I’m not looking into health and medicine.
0:20:14 That’s the idea.
0:20:15 It gives me clarity.
0:20:17 Oh, I probably am wired to do people work.
0:20:19 That’s the idea.
0:20:23 What’s so interesting is that we always hear about imposter syndrome.
0:20:28 Really, imposter syndrome, in my opinion, is when you’re in a job that you don’t have
0:20:29 the right skills for.
0:20:34 You don’t have the right talents for and you feel inadequate because it’s not your strengths.
0:20:35 Would you agree with that?
0:20:36 I think it can be that.
0:20:37 Yeah.
0:20:38 Let’s take that scenario.
0:20:43 In that situation, you realize, “I don’t think I’m cut out for this because I don’t
0:20:45 have the talent.”
0:20:46 It’s like me trying a new sport.
0:20:48 It was the golf example earlier.
0:20:51 I get out there and play enough and play with better golfers.
0:20:55 I’m going to have some doubt as to whether or not I’m ever going to get there.
0:20:58 In that situation is not a syndrome.
0:20:59 That’s reality.
0:21:02 That’s me going, “I’m not going to be good enough.
0:21:04 I just don’t have the skill set.”
0:21:07 The mental makeup to be good in golf.
0:21:13 Yes, it absolutely can be a sign that … and I’m glad you brought this up because a lot
0:21:18 of times, even a guy like me in my world, I’ll poo poo fear and doubt because they are enemies
0:21:21 of progress, but many times fear and doubt are protecting us.
0:21:26 In the scenario you just brought up, which I think is insightful, we’ve got to have
0:21:30 enough self-awareness that when we experience doubt, we know whether doubt is lying to us
0:21:35 and holding us back or doubt’s going, “Oh, there’s a reason that you have doubt.”
0:21:36 You’re average at best.
0:21:41 If you bust your ass, you’re only going to be average and people don’t pay for average.
0:21:42 Yes.
0:21:48 It’s almost like a dictionary problem where you need to learn the ropes and the abbreviations
0:21:54 that everybody’s using or is this really like a skills problem and it’s not your strengths.
0:21:59 Let’s talk about boredom and disengagement at work because I remember last year so many
0:22:04 of my conversations, people were talking about quiet quitting, and so many people were quitting
0:22:06 their jobs to become freelancers and entrepreneurs.
0:22:11 I feel like it’s studied out a bit, but talk to us about the problem of being disengaged
0:22:13 and bored at work right now.
0:22:14 Yes.
0:22:15 I love that you bring up boredom.
0:22:19 It doesn’t get talked about enough, I think, when we talk about these work trends.
0:22:22 Boredom is just a function of there’s just no challenge.
0:22:28 There’s no challenge and challenge comes at us, I think, with two key characteristics.
0:22:35 I’m challenged because it’s difficult, but I think I got enough chops to handle it.
0:22:42 Or I’m challenged because I love it so much that I want to take that to the next level.
0:22:48 The guy who’s the goat on this, his name is Mihai Cheek-Sent-Mihai, he’s got a very popular
0:22:53 TED Talk on the topic of flow, and here’s what his research over 30 years found.
0:22:59 Part of being in a state of flow, which is kind of a state of ecstasy, actually, is not
0:23:05 drug or sexual, it is a mental state that he describes, and part of getting to that
0:23:07 flow is challenge.
0:23:14 It must be challenging so that I am engaged to, I got to really lock in, I got to focus,
0:23:19 I got to put effort in, I got to be at my best, so that’s the challenge piece.
0:23:25 But the challenge and the aptitude or the ability to meet the challenge are the same,
0:23:32 and so that’s a huge part of this, and so boredom happens when one or both of those
0:23:37 are really off, and let’s be honest with you, boredom happens when we’re doing a job that
0:23:43 takes very little effort, and so we’re scrolling on social media, or we’re talking to our coworkers,
0:23:45 because there’s just no challenge.
0:23:48 There’s no challenge mentally, and there’s no challenge emotionally, and that’s what
0:23:49 I was saying earlier.
0:23:53 The mental challenge is obviously it’s got to push me, and I got to really lock in,
0:23:57 but the emotional challenge too is like, do I actually give a crap?
0:24:03 Does this work that I got to do, is it enjoyable for me, and then does it create a result that
0:24:05 I actually think is great?
0:24:10 So if you put me on a spreadsheet, I’m telling you I’m dead, because I’m not naturally good
0:24:16 at spreadsheet and organization and all that stuff, and I could give a crap about organization.
0:24:20 I got people around me who do all that that I love in the organization.
0:24:25 I’m a creative, so the more I’m bouncing from thing to thing to thing, and I’m engaging
0:24:31 with you, that’s fun for me, so that’s what boredom does, and so here’s the deal.
0:24:36 To wrap this up, boredom will suck the soul right out of you, because when a human being
0:24:42 isn’t challenged, then what happens is they begin to think that there is no challenge
0:24:48 to be had, and you just retreat and settle, and it creates a lot of stress by the way.
0:24:49 That’s what’s crazy.
0:24:53 The more bored you are, the more stress you have.
0:24:57 Let’s hold that thought and take a quick break with our sponsors.
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0:29:11 You’ve been really passionate about helping people with their careers for years now.
0:29:14 You have multiple books under your belt related to careers.
0:29:16 And I read a quote from you that I want to read.
0:29:20 You said, “We are all souls and we are created to contribute.
0:29:25 And if you don’t contribute something that matters to you, then there’s something missing.”
0:29:28 And so we talked a bit about challenge, but talk to us about meaning.
0:29:31 Why do we have to have meaning in our work?
0:29:34 Because we are spirits.
0:29:40 And I don’t care where you come from in the world, what your religion is, what your political
0:29:43 affiliation is, strip all of that away.
0:29:48 And the one commonality that all humans have is somewhere along the way in our journey,
0:29:51 we all wonder, “What should I do with my life?”
0:29:54 And then we also think, “What’s the contribution I’m making?”
0:29:57 We all kind of want to make our mark.
0:29:58 And I just think that’s the way we’re created.
0:29:59 I’ll just leave it at that.
0:30:04 I think it’s just there, and nobody has to teach anybody to wonder that, because I think
0:30:06 we all just want to make a difference.
0:30:10 I think if you’re going to find one thing that humans can unify around is good, healthy
0:30:14 people want to help others, they just want to help others.
0:30:17 So that is the issue.
0:30:23 And so when we look at this innate desire to make a difference, make a mark, you can
0:30:28 say it 80 different ways, then we realize meaning matters so much.
0:30:35 Giving an example, throughout history, we’ve seen dictators, evil people, use meaningless
0:30:40 work as torture, I mean, multiple civilizations, just go do your homework.
0:30:45 You can pick any time of history, certainly not modern history, but I mean, right now,
0:30:51 I know of countries around the world where people are just pounding rocks to pay off
0:30:52 debts.
0:30:53 They’re just pounding those rocks.
0:30:54 So that’s not what we’re talking about.
0:30:59 I’m talking about literally meaningless work as torture.
0:31:01 So that’s a fascinating thing.
0:31:05 If there’s no meaning behind it, you’re like, why am I doing this?
0:31:10 And that’s psychological torture, not physical torture.
0:31:11 And it’s fascinating.
0:31:13 And so why is that?
0:31:16 Because we as humans are creatures of progress.
0:31:18 So if I’m not, here’s the danger slope.
0:31:24 If I’m not doing work that matters to me, I eventually start to wonder if my job matters
0:31:25 and then it gets really scary.
0:31:27 I start to wonder if I matter.
0:31:30 So I think that that’s the reason why meaning matters.
0:31:33 By the way, the data from Gallup shows up all the time.
0:31:38 One of the three human needs that Gallup said that workers have to have met, one of them
0:31:41 is meaning and purpose in their work.
0:31:46 Two is recognition for their unique contribution and three is a relationship with their leader.
0:31:48 Now here’s what’s funny.
0:31:54 Those three needs, those are all heart stuff and that just shows our humanness.
0:32:01 So related to this point, I think the average age of my listeners is 35, 37.
0:32:02 And that’s not young.
0:32:03 It’s not old.
0:32:04 It’s sort of in the middle.
0:32:08 And I’m sure there’s a lot of people tuning in that are like, man, I feel like my job
0:32:09 is meaningless.
0:32:14 I feel like my life is meaningless, but I feel like I’m too old to make a change.
0:32:17 I always say you’re never too old to start something new.
0:32:23 I started my podcast pretty late considering, you know, I was 30 years old when I started
0:32:28 my podcast and I did so much in the last five years.
0:32:32 I like basically dominated the industry in five years.
0:32:35 I had a lot of experience in radio and other things before that.
0:32:40 So I started with a head start, but still I got a lot accomplished in that short amount
0:32:41 of time.
0:32:46 And a lot of people don’t realize that in five years you could do so much.
0:32:47 So talk to us about that.
0:32:51 Is there really an age where it’s too late to start thinking about a new career?
0:32:53 No, I think you’re right.
0:32:57 Here’s what I’ve told people when I’ve coached them on this because I’ve had people in their
0:32:58 late fifties.
0:33:01 I had a lady call my show recently, it was 61.
0:33:02 So here’s what I told her.
0:33:03 I said, it’s not too late.
0:33:09 The only thing that you’ve got to adjust is it’s not too late to start something new,
0:33:15 but the amount of time you have to do that thing is shorter.
0:33:18 But you’ve got plenty of time to start it and do it.
0:33:22 You just don’t have as much time to stay in it as a 25 year old, right?
0:33:25 At least that needs to be the expectation.
0:33:29 But let’s also be honest, you know, certainly don’t want to freak anybody out here.
0:33:32 But this is the kind of thing you and I talk about and then we do, you know, you’re not
0:33:33 promised tomorrow.
0:33:38 You could be 25 and something awful happened to you completely out of your control and
0:33:40 you don’t make it to 30.
0:33:44 So from that standpoint to the 20 something, let’s get after it.
0:33:47 Don’t put all this pressure on you to figure it out in your 20s.
0:33:51 But do what Hollad did, do what I did, go do something and work your way up.
0:33:53 So to that older person, it’s not too late.
0:33:59 The only mindset adjustment here is, all right, if I’m starting at X date, then I don’t have
0:34:02 the runway that I would have had much younger.
0:34:03 So what am I going to do?
0:34:05 I’m going to have proper expectations.
0:34:12 You just measure reality with your timeline of life and go, I may not be able to do this,
0:34:16 this, this, this, this and this, but I can do this and this.
0:34:17 And I think that’s how you go.
0:34:18 All right.
0:34:23 The time I have left from this point on, I’m going to do something that matters to me.
0:34:25 And here’s what’s cool about this.
0:34:30 A hospice nurse in Australia wrote a bestselling book about the regrets of the dying.
0:34:34 And one of the top five was I didn’t live the life that I truly wanted to live.
0:34:40 And so I’m a guy that preaches reminiscing over regretting at 55 or 65, you still got
0:34:41 some time.
0:34:42 You can do it.
0:34:47 So that you can look back at least on a certain period of your life and go, I’m so glad that
0:34:50 I did that and not regret that you never took a shot.
0:34:52 And also doing it in a smart way.
0:34:57 For example, using your books and your assessments and things to make sure you know your strengths,
0:35:02 you know your passions, you know your mission and you know what is a likely path that you’ll
0:35:07 succeed at rather than sort of just going at it willy nilly without a plan.
0:35:09 So this is a great segue into some of your work.
0:35:14 So before we get into your new book, it’s called Get Clear Career Assessment.
0:35:16 I’d love to touch on some of your previous works.
0:35:20 In 2019, you wrote about the proximity principle.
0:35:24 And you say that can change everything people thought about they knew pursuing your career
0:35:25 that they love.
0:35:29 So what are my young and profiteers need to know about the proximity principle?
0:35:32 Yeah, we’ll start with what the principle is and then what it does.
0:35:37 The principle says this, in order to do what I want to do, you can fill in the blank there,
0:35:40 I’ve got to be around people that are doing it and in places where it is happening.
0:35:41 Young Holla did this.
0:35:44 She thought she wanted to be a singer.
0:35:45 So what did she do?
0:35:50 She went to the place where they were playing all the songs and it was a brilliant move,
0:35:51 right?
0:35:52 Now, your idea changed.
0:35:57 But again, what’s interesting is that you’ve also could have used the radio as that idea
0:35:59 of this is the right place.
0:36:04 So the proximity principle is about people in places, the right people plus the right
0:36:07 places equals opportunity.
0:36:11 In other words, if you’re constantly getting around the right people, people that are in
0:36:16 the space that you want to be in, or similar to the space that you think you want to be
0:36:21 in, that proximity is just there and I think your life is actually a wonderful example
0:36:22 of this.
0:36:24 And you talked about it earlier.
0:36:30 Because you were in proximity, you pointed it out, it wasn’t that big of a departure.
0:36:33 You are in fact a performer, you’re a top notch performer.
0:36:36 You may only sing for friends and family now.
0:36:37 By the way, I’d love to hear you sing.
0:36:38 I think the audience would too.
0:36:40 There might need to be a single coming out later.
0:36:43 But anyway, that’s my ADHD flaring up.
0:36:48 But I think that the issue here is if I understand that being around the right people is going
0:36:52 to allow me to meet more of the right people, being around the right people, they’re going
0:36:53 to point me to the right places.
0:36:56 I go to the right places, I see, I learn, I observe, oh, by the way, I connect with more
0:36:58 of the right people over here.
0:37:01 And so what you’ve got is if I were going to draw it up, it would be an arrow here,
0:37:03 an arrow here and we’d have the right people in the right places.
0:37:10 And it becomes this cyclical process of learning, doing, and connecting.
0:37:12 That’s what it spits out.
0:37:16 And that formula equals opportunity to where you do it right, how people will knock on
0:37:17 your door.
0:37:22 In fact, some of the coolest experiences I got in my career where I got huge opportunities
0:37:24 were because of proximity.
0:37:28 I was the second option, but they needed another option.
0:37:31 But the only reason they thought of me is because I was in the orbit, if you will.
0:37:35 So in order to do what I want to do, I got to be around people that are doing it in places
0:37:36 where it is happening.
0:37:41 In other words, if I’m around the right people and in the right places, the right time will
0:37:43 happen on its own.
0:37:45 Oh my gosh, I love that.
0:37:47 I love that concept so much.
0:37:52 I can think about my past experiences and I know that’s true, like figuring out podcasting,
0:37:56 it’s like going to all the podcast conferences, trying to get podcast mentors, taking calls
0:38:01 with every single podcast company and trying to understand what everybody does.
0:38:03 That’s how you become the top of your field.
0:38:06 I’m curious, can I flip it on you?
0:38:07 Yeah.
0:38:08 Because your audience loves you.
0:38:09 They’re here for you.
0:38:11 I’m just the guy guesting today.
0:38:15 I’m curious, how did the proximity principle play into your specific story where you actually
0:38:17 got the gig you got now?
0:38:22 Like it led to the show that’s rocking it and you had this meteoric growth.
0:38:25 I’m curious, what was your situation?
0:38:28 There’s so much that goes into it.
0:38:33 Just to your point, getting that job at Hot 97, I thought I was going to be a singer,
0:38:38 ended up learning the ropes of radio, took every opportunity that I could where if the
0:38:40 DJs wanted me to blog, I was blogging.
0:38:42 If they wanted me to come to a party, I was going to the party.
0:38:46 If they wanted me to sell showcase tickets and host a showcase, I was doing that.
0:38:53 So I was taking my opportunity B avenues is what I call them and getting all these experiences.
0:38:57 So I’m a type of person that isn’t afraid of going out on my own.
0:39:01 So I started a blog site, but I didn’t start it on my own.
0:39:04 I recruited other women that were in the entertainment industry.
0:39:10 So people who worked at Def Jam and IHAR and VH1 and then worked with them and learned
0:39:13 from them and started this blog site.
0:39:14 Then I went into corporate.
0:39:16 That’s the whole other story.
0:39:20 A ghost period of four years where I just didn’t think I was going to make it.
0:39:26 I got rejected from satellite radio, MTV, I almost had a show on MTV, so it was like
0:39:27 a dark period.
0:39:29 But then I started my podcast.
0:39:33 And when I started in the podcast industry, once I decided that I was going to really
0:39:37 do this, I just tried to learn from everyone.
0:39:40 So for example, Jordan Harbinger, who’s one of the biggest podcasters in the world, he’s
0:39:44 one of my best friends, he’s my podcast mentor, he came on my show.
0:39:48 And when he came on my show, I didn’t just leave it at that.
0:39:49 I was like, what can I do for you?
0:39:51 Can I write your commercials for you?
0:39:53 Can I show you how I’m growing my podcast?
0:39:57 Because he’s sort of old school and I was like this new school podcaster.
0:40:01 So I was trying to teach him stuff so he would give me the time of the day.
0:40:04 And then finally, he was, wow, like you’re really onto some stuff.
0:40:08 I’ll teach you how to grow your show the way that I know and you can teach me how to grow
0:40:10 your show the way that you know.
0:40:13 And I was just doing things for free to get him as a mentor.
0:40:18 So that was one of my first big breaks because he taught me all the secrets of growing shows
0:40:20 traditionally, right?
0:40:24 And then when I started my network, I literally started a podcast network, have never joined
0:40:28 a network, no idea how podcast networks work.
0:40:32 So I would just take all these calls with all these agencies and I would just act like
0:40:36 I knew what I was talking about, but try to investigate what the hell are they doing
0:40:42 and pieced it together, going to all these conferences and just trying to meet everybody
0:40:44 until I figured it all out to your point.
0:40:49 Because how do you just get in contact with people who know what they’re doing and work
0:40:54 for free for them, ask them lots of questions, do favors for them so that they help you
0:40:55 in return?
0:40:57 Hopefully, that was a good example.
0:41:00 That is the principle living it out.
0:41:03 Throughout the whole story, I could have just circled while you were talking, I could have
0:41:07 pressed pause and circled right people, like we’ve heard of Jordan was the right person.
0:41:12 These women from Def Jam and these massive companies, right people, showing up the podcast
0:41:13 got right places.
0:41:18 So, yeah, it’s a simple little idea and honestly, I didn’t expect the book to do as well as
0:41:19 it did.
0:41:22 I was just trying to simplify the climb.
0:41:26 If you just keep showing up around the right people in the right places, good stuff’s going
0:41:27 to happen.
0:41:28 It’s not romantic.
0:41:34 It’s just simple, but most people in today’s world, they want to fast forward everything
0:41:39 because we see a lot of unbelievable fast stories and those are rare.
0:41:45 Those are rare people because you look like a fast story because if you just look at your
0:41:51 bio, it’s like, so all these young women could look at you and go, that’s what I want to
0:41:52 do.
0:41:53 She did it.
0:41:54 I want to do it.
0:41:55 I can do it.
0:42:02 I’d go, okay, that’s true, but are you aware of what she did that’s not in the bio that
0:42:11 led to everything that she was able to stack together that then let her go like this?
0:42:15 The challenge for young people, and I was young once, okay, so I’m like the dad on this
0:42:16 podcast.
0:42:17 I don’t mind it.
0:42:18 You’re still young.
0:42:19 Thank you.
0:42:21 I’m older than you probably realize, but here’s what I want you to hear.
0:42:26 I was like the young, so this is not a knock on young people and I can’t stand when people
0:42:31 crap on the younger generations like millennials and Gen Z. It bothers me to know it.
0:42:37 Here’s the thing, the thing about being young is you don’t understand how long things take
0:42:42 and then you realize, wait a second, successful people, they’re willing to do what it takes
0:42:44 because a lot of you are going, I’ll do what it takes.
0:42:48 I’ll do what Holla did, okay, but you also waited as long as it took.
0:42:52 That doesn’t mean you were sitting around because waiting by the way is not a passive
0:42:54 posture.
0:42:55 It’s actually a mature posture.
0:42:58 In other words, you get up, you were busting at that radio station, you were going out
0:43:00 here doing this, hanging out.
0:43:06 I love that on this conversation you’ve mentioned work for free, I think five times, and I can’t
0:43:07 wait to interview you about that.
0:43:12 It’s going to be a huge theme because that is a very controversial position in the world
0:43:17 of TikTok because they’ve got a lot of snowflakes that freak out over that.
0:43:20 What they don’t understand is that Holla was willing to wait as long as it took.
0:43:27 In other words, she kept showing up, showing up, showing up, showing up, doing this, doing
0:43:33 that, meeting this, learning this, and waiting is an active posture.
0:43:37 It is, I’m going to keep showing up, doing what it takes, knowing that if I keep showing
0:43:39 up, the right time’s going to find me.
0:43:40 That’s your story.
0:43:42 It’s your story too.
0:43:43 Yeah.
0:43:48 Well, it’s every successful woman and man, every one of them, they don’t quit, they keep
0:43:49 showing up.
0:43:53 And then we look at their story and we go, “Oh, wow, right place, right time.”
0:43:54 Bull.
0:43:58 They were in the right place and then the right time found them.
0:44:02 So are you willing to do what it takes if I wait on the street with a camera crew?
0:44:03 They all, “Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, okay.”
0:44:06 I say, “Are you willing to wait as long as it takes?”
0:44:10 So that means, are you willing to show up for five years, seven years, nine years?
0:44:11 Not many people are.
0:44:12 Amazing.
0:44:14 Well, let’s talk about your 2021 release.
0:44:17 It was called Paycheck to Purpose, another bestseller.
0:44:21 And in it, you talked about talent, passion, and mission.
0:44:25 And this is a theme that even now you talk a lot about, talent, passion, mission.
0:44:30 So can you define those three words in your own words and tie it all together?
0:44:31 Yeah.
0:44:32 Talent is what we do best.
0:44:34 Passion is what we love to do most.
0:44:38 Mission is that result that we care deeply about putting into the world.
0:44:42 So if I use what I do best, talent, to do what I love passion, to produce results that
0:44:49 matter to me, mission, I am, by definition, on purpose, doing what I’m supposed to do.
0:44:51 Doing what I can uniquely do.
0:44:55 The reason I came up with that methodology is through coaching people and I was trying
0:44:58 to help them see there’s a formula here.
0:45:02 The answer to what should I do with my life lies in those three things.
0:45:03 What are you good at?
0:45:05 What do you enjoy doing?
0:45:06 What results move your heart?
0:45:07 Okay.
0:45:10 So for instance, an activist, their heart is angered.
0:45:16 Their heart is broken, angered by an atrocity, broken for the people that are the victims.
0:45:19 And so their heart moves them to that kind of work.
0:45:21 Your heart, my heart, probably very, very similar, right?
0:45:24 Our heart is about achievement and influence.
0:45:25 We want to help people.
0:45:28 We want to help people win here.
0:45:30 Mediocrity is our enemy.
0:45:34 And so when we understand that last piece, mission, the results that motivate me, we
0:45:37 tap into the magic of motivation.
0:45:41 So talent, those are the tools so that we can do work that we enjoy.
0:45:42 We love.
0:45:43 We look forward to the work.
0:45:46 When we get in it, when you were singing, when you were on the air, when we’re doing
0:45:52 this right now, you and I really, really enjoy this communication piece, this learning, this
0:45:53 digging.
0:45:54 How can I learn from?
0:45:55 How can I pass this on?
0:46:00 But the last piece is so important to understand intrinsic motivation, and that’s a sense
0:46:01 of mission.
0:46:02 We all have it.
0:46:05 In other words, person who gets up at 5 a.m. in the morning to work out does it only because
0:46:06 they want to.
0:46:10 My teenage boys, Hala, only clean their room because they have to.
0:46:11 Do you see the difference?
0:46:15 I say to them, you’re not going out with your friends this weekend into this bathroom, doesn’t
0:46:18 look like a crime scene.
0:46:19 Clean it up.
0:46:20 And what do they do?
0:46:24 And then they do it, but that’s extrinsic motivation.
0:46:29 They do it to avoid punishment or to get something they want that is going to be withheld from
0:46:30 them.
0:46:33 So the person who gets up for the reward itself just because they want to, that’s the idea.
0:46:35 So those are the three elements.
0:46:39 When we can see that about ourselves, that’s when we get true self-awareness.
0:46:44 We’ll be right back after a quick break from our sponsors.
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0:51:39 So your latest buckets.
0:51:43 What clear career assessment find the work that you’re wired to do.
0:51:47 You already put out two books about careers, so why did you feel the need to release this
0:51:49 new book?
0:51:50 Because this is actually just a manual.
0:51:56 It became a bestseller, but we actually wrote this to get the assessment on Amazon.
0:52:00 It was because I wanted to have more distribution because you can’t sell a digital product
0:52:01 on Amazon.
0:52:03 So kind of a fun lesson here.
0:52:05 You got to do what you got to do.
0:52:08 The assessment actually measures those three components.
0:52:09 So I’m glad you asked me that.
0:52:14 Paychecked a purpose was providing that seven stages of what it looks like to get on top
0:52:16 of your professional mountain.
0:52:19 And we do it all through getting clear as that first step.
0:52:23 Well, I developed an assessment because I wanted to give people a tool that in about
0:52:28 18 to 20 minutes, you could get a direct report of the world of talent.
0:52:29 This is your top three.
0:52:34 And then here’s where you’re above average in the world of passion, the types of work.
0:52:35 Here’s where your top three are.
0:52:36 Here’s where you’re above average.
0:52:42 In your mission results, there’s six driving missions from the world of psychology.
0:52:47 I just adopted that and it kind of tell you, this is your primary motivator.
0:52:50 And so you get a deep dive report in those three areas.
0:52:55 Then we put your top results in a purpose statement that is essentially like a job description
0:52:59 for you, a dream job description where you can lay it over the world of work and go,
0:53:05 does this career path, does this job allow me to spend most of my day, let’s call it
0:53:12 75% of my day using what I do best to do what I enjoy to produce results I care about.
0:53:14 That’s as simple as it gets.
0:53:17 And the assessment does that and it’s a fabulous tool.
0:53:18 It’s not a personality profile.
0:53:20 You notice I didn’t talk about personality.
0:53:24 It’s not going to predict some career for you because that’s crap junk science.
0:53:25 Can’t do that.
0:53:26 No assessment can.
0:53:29 But what it does is give you self-awareness.
0:53:34 And self-awareness is a superpower because when I can see who I really am and what I
0:53:41 have to offer to the world, that clarity will lead to confidence and confidence will give
0:53:46 you courage when you step out and life throws something at you.
0:53:49 Courage just isn’t this thing that we can will up.
0:53:52 It must come from a place of clarity and confidence.
0:53:55 And so that’s why we created the tool, the book itself.
0:54:00 It’s about a 45 minute read and all it does is catches you right at your assessment results
0:54:01 to get clear assessment.
0:54:02 It will give you what I just described.
0:54:04 And the book is written as though I’m coaching you.
0:54:10 So how do we take this purpose statement and start to ideate, well, what can I do professionally?
0:54:11 Is it medicine?
0:54:13 And so we pick up at those questions I gave you earlier.
0:54:16 People I want to help, problem or desire they have.
0:54:19 So that the little book is more of a companion to the assessment.
0:54:20 So that’s why we wrote it.
0:54:23 Honestly, didn’t expect it to be a best seller.
0:54:24 Just wanted to get the tool out.
0:54:29 So here we stand and I’m getting an opportunity to talk about what I think is life changing
0:54:32 methodology because it’s just self awareness.
0:54:36 And here’s what I would say to young people, everybody’s chasing greatness.
0:54:38 And I think it’s misguided.
0:54:44 I want you to chase uniqueness because it is in your uniqueness that your greatness lies
0:54:46 because it’s your contribution.
0:54:50 This is so good for anybody who’s thinking about making a career change.
0:54:54 So again, I think one of the biggest fears is, oh, I don’t want to waste more time.
0:55:00 Well, you stop wasting time by having a plan and having self awareness and thinking through
0:55:03 things and not just shooting in the dark, right?
0:55:05 So I highly recommend this for everyone.
0:55:08 But this is an actionable advice podcast.
0:55:12 So what are some questions that people can ask themselves to understand what their core
0:55:14 talents are?
0:55:16 What have people always complimented me on?
0:55:19 How do I wow others?
0:55:23 Let’s just hit the rewind button and ask those very practical questions because there’s
0:55:24 evidence.
0:55:25 I want to recognize something.
0:55:30 For people who have had a lot of trauma in a really tough life, this will take some time
0:55:32 to keep asking.
0:55:38 But for most of us who’ve had a relatively healthy life and not overwhelmed by challenge,
0:55:40 there’s going to be multiple times where you can pull up answers.
0:55:45 How I wow others, what people say about me when they compliment me.
0:55:47 These are basic questions that will reveal right away.
0:55:49 Oh, well, there’s a pattern here.
0:55:52 And something that I love in this book that you talk about is super talents, which is
0:55:54 something that I’ve never heard of.
0:55:57 So what’s the difference between a talent and a super talent?
0:56:01 Super talents are the things that I’m excellent at, just absolutely through experience or
0:56:04 education or just pure nature.
0:56:05 I’m excellent.
0:56:07 I mean, I’m up here.
0:56:09 And that’s what we give in the assessment, your top three.
0:56:11 We call those your super talents.
0:56:13 Now that indicates that below that are some solid talents.
0:56:18 Let’s use a simple analogy, one being suck, ten being great.
0:56:22 If you were an eight or nine or a ten, I’d call that a super talent.
0:56:26 If you are a six or a seven, I’d call that a solid talent.
0:56:31 In the form of if I get more education, more experience, I put some hard work in and I
0:56:34 really hone my craft, then I can become super.
0:56:36 I’ll just be real personal.
0:56:38 So in the wide world, I write books.
0:56:40 I write articles.
0:56:42 I give keynotes.
0:56:46 I do monologues on a show every day.
0:56:50 I coach people live in front of thousands of people, just me and a mic.
0:56:54 And it’s kind of just whoo, you know, or I’m on the air and I got eight minutes.
0:56:55 So that’s what I do.
0:57:01 Of those things that I do in my super talents, it would be the discernment and coaching piece.
0:57:04 When I’m on the spot and I’m listening to somebody, I’m asking and digging.
0:57:06 I’m really, really good at that.
0:57:09 The other thing that is a super talent for me is the actual interview themselves, you
0:57:12 know, when I’m interviewing people and pulling stuff out of them.
0:57:18 If I’m honest and I am, and by the way, I get feedback from my team, my solid talent
0:57:20 on that list is the keynote.
0:57:21 I’m good.
0:57:22 I’m a good speaker.
0:57:23 I’m not great.
0:57:26 I’m working to become great.
0:57:28 And that’s my own analysis and also feedback.
0:57:31 I think you’ve got to be honest about that.
0:57:33 Writing, same deal.
0:57:36 Good writer, not a great writer.
0:57:38 So that’s the difference between a super talent.
0:57:41 Now I can get better at the speaking and have.
0:57:44 And I can get better at writing and I have, but I still got more work to do.
0:57:49 Whereas the other ones, just from my natural talent and I’ve had more time, I’ve got more
0:57:54 experience than the other two with the interviews and coaching people than I did with the speaking
0:57:55 and writing.
0:57:56 So what do you do?
0:58:00 You get better at it, but then you also hire really good editors.
0:58:04 So that I can take what I’m good at, which is a monologue.
0:58:06 By the way, I’m better at monologues than I am a 40 minute keynote.
0:58:09 I’m better at the quick, here’s three points.
0:58:12 So you go, okay, I need help over here with the writing.
0:58:17 So I’m going to go hire really talented writers to edit my stuff and coach me and say, you’re
0:58:19 missing this here.
0:58:20 You’re not weaving this in.
0:58:21 This needs a story.
0:58:27 This is a little too kind of nebulous, kind of out that you need to simplify this for
0:58:30 the reader because I can’t do that for myself.
0:58:31 So I hope that answers your question.
0:58:34 I think that’s the difference and in my own life.
0:58:36 So I got to pay attention to that.
0:58:37 Yeah, totally.
0:58:40 It sounds like you’re not focusing on your weaknesses at all.
0:58:45 It sounds like you’re just trying to strengthen your talents and your super talents.
0:58:47 And are you focused on your weaknesses at all?
0:58:51 Only to the fact that when we have a new team member join, like we just got a new associate
0:58:53 producer on my team and she’s awesome.
0:58:59 And on our first meeting, I spent 10 minutes trashing everything that I do that’s awful.
0:59:01 And she was laughing and she really enjoyed it.
0:59:02 And it did two things.
0:59:05 Number one, it let her know that I’m aware of these things that I suck at.
0:59:10 Being on time, details, can’t ever find my own keys in my house.
0:59:11 God bless my wife.
0:59:12 I’m really open about it.
0:59:15 So I’m only focused on it to tell everybody that I work with.
0:59:18 Number one, I’m weak in this area.
0:59:20 Number two, I’m aware of it.
0:59:24 And number three, in order for us to work well, both of us need to be aware of this.
0:59:29 And the reason that you’re hired is because you’re actually strong where I am weak.
0:59:33 So understand our job as a team for each other, not just for Ken.
0:59:35 This isn’t all about Ken.
0:59:38 All of us have got to say, this is where I’m weak.
0:59:41 And to the extent that we remove stuff off of our plate and move it to someone else’s
0:59:45 plate, we delegate, we hire for it, or we eliminate it all together.
0:59:49 So yes, I’m not focused on it, but I’m super aware of my weaknesses.
0:59:54 And my life, by the way, is organized.
0:59:59 I use that loosely because I’m not very organized, but my life is structured probably in a way.
1:00:04 And I’ve got team where, again, I operate in my strengths all day long, which is really,
1:00:05 really rewarding.
1:00:06 That’s the goal.
1:00:07 And it’s freeing.
1:00:10 By the way, it’s freeing to just go, I suck at this because, by the way, your team already
1:00:11 knows.
1:00:15 By the way, it’s because you focus on your strengths to become the top of your field,
1:00:19 so you could get a team to help you with everything else.
1:00:20 That’s a great point.
1:00:21 That’s the beauty.
1:00:23 In Western, I don’t know what, and I’m going to bang on the Western Hemisphere because
1:00:26 I’m a Western Hemisphere product, so I can make fun of it.
1:00:28 I don’t see this in the Eastern Hemisphere.
1:00:29 I really don’t.
1:00:31 This is a Western way of thinking.
1:00:34 And I’m not trying to philosophize, just hang with me, folks.
1:00:39 With Western thinking is we go to school from kindergarten through 12th grade and then
1:00:42 it’s college, and it’s largely the same system.
1:00:46 We memorize and we regurgitate, and they grade us on what we get wrong.
1:00:51 So your whole life, you’ve been conditioned to be afraid of getting anything wrong.
1:00:54 So what happens is that translates to your weaknesses.
1:00:59 You experience a weakness as you begin to go to school, or you try out for an extracurricular
1:01:01 activity, and you begin to experience weakness.
1:01:04 You go, “Oh, I got to fix that weakness,” instead of going, “I suck at playing the
1:01:05 clarinet.
1:01:07 I should probably not play the clarinet.”
1:01:08 So true.
1:01:09 So true.
1:01:10 Do you know what I mean?
1:01:13 But we’ve been conditioned by a Western thinking to work on your weaknesses.
1:01:15 And here’s what’s crazy.
1:01:17 That’s not a thing in the real world of work.
1:01:19 I don’t care what hemisphere you’re in.
1:01:20 So good.
1:01:24 Let’s go a little bit broader and talk about the jobs economy in general.
1:01:28 And also for some of the entrepreneurs and business owners who listen to the show, I’d
1:01:33 love to understand how we can translate some of this into empowering our employees.
1:01:34 So first off, I got to talk about AI.
1:01:41 I’ve been doing so many AI episodes lately, and a topic that keeps coming up is AI and
1:01:42 jobs.
1:01:46 So how do you think about AI’s impact on jobs and what people need to think about?
1:01:54 I don’t think AI is going to change jobs any more than Apple change jobs, or pick another
1:01:55 technology.
1:01:56 Right?
1:01:57 It’s just the internet.
1:02:04 If you think about it, anytime in our history where we’ve had a major technological advancement,
1:02:06 is it eliminated some jobs?
1:02:07 Yeah.
1:02:08 Some.
1:02:09 But what did it do?
1:02:10 It spun off more.
1:02:17 And so I actually think that AI is going to spin off jobs that you and I can’t even imagine
1:02:19 and create in our heads right now.
1:02:24 I think the job market that my 15-year-old daughter is going to experience, we don’t
1:02:25 even know.
1:02:26 We can’t even describe it.
1:02:28 So I’m not afraid of AI.
1:02:29 I would say this.
1:02:32 I’ve talked to Chris Doe, who I think is one of the great minds on AI.
1:02:34 I had him on my show.
1:02:35 I just asked him.
1:02:36 I’ll tell you what he told me.
1:02:42 He said, “We can’t forget that AI’s effectiveness is completely predicated on the human who
1:02:43 programs it.”
1:02:49 So AI’s ability to do anything is based on a human programming it to do that thing.
1:02:56 And I think that I’m less concerned about AI replacing your job.
1:03:01 I’d be more concerned about a person who works really well with AI replacing your job.
1:03:03 I still think it’s the human component.
1:03:07 So for instance, I do believe the experts that say you’re going to see a pretty good
1:03:12 percentage of clerical jobs maybe go away, because they can program AI to do all the
1:03:13 customer service.
1:03:17 And we’re already seeing in the hiring process where there’s AI software where a human’s
1:03:22 not even involved sometimes, even to the second or third level of a job interview.
1:03:24 So is it going to create efficiencies?
1:03:27 Yes, but you will still need the human-to-human contact.
1:03:30 So I’m not scared of AI from a work standpoint.
1:03:35 AI as it relates to warfare, that freaks me out, but that’s not what we’re here to talk
1:03:36 about.
1:03:37 But that freaks me out.
1:03:41 AI in the world of work, no, it’s not going to be a bunch of machines doing the work and
1:03:42 the rest of us are sitting around eating Cheetos.
1:03:44 I don’t think that’s going to happen.
1:03:45 Yeah.
1:03:46 I think your internet example was so good.
1:03:51 If I think about my job now, it’s literally 100% based on the internet.
1:03:52 There’s nothing else.
1:03:55 I don’t even have any like office or anything.
1:03:56 It’s just so good.
1:03:57 Okay.
1:03:59 Let’s talk about companies and employers.
1:04:00 So something that I’ve noticed.
1:04:02 I have 60 people on my team now.
1:04:07 I’ve been running my company for four years and some of the rock stars that I had in my
1:04:12 company that used to be rock stars, and I love them still, they’re still great, but
1:04:14 just giving it as an example.
1:04:20 Star players four years ago, four years later, as we’ve grown so much as a company, I feel
1:04:26 like they’re struggling to stay developed, evolve with the company.
1:04:30 I see some star players that two years ago strongest players on the team.
1:04:34 Now I’m like, oh, you guys are struggling suddenly and you’re not keeping up.
1:04:39 How can we develop our employees and help them develop their strengths and skills?
1:04:42 What can we be doing as bosses?
1:04:43 Really good question.
1:04:46 Let me give a quick context and then maybe dive in the specifics.
1:04:49 I may ask you a couple of questions to fully answer this.
1:04:54 First we got to understand as leaders and founders specifically that there are a good
1:04:59 amount of people who got you there who won’t get you to the next level.
1:05:05 It is very natural for companies to outgrow some of the key people who actually were fundamental
1:05:10 in getting them to the certain spot, but this comes back to again, talent, passion, mission.
1:05:14 If you look at the wiring of some of these people that may be struggling with you now
1:05:18 that didn’t struggle back here, some of it could be fit.
1:05:24 So as the leader, you got to go, is this a fit issue to the point that there’s another
1:05:29 seat and I need to get them on another seat where they are now able to plug into the new
1:05:37 version of our company or do they simply just not have the right makeup for where the company
1:05:39 is and where the company is going to go?
1:05:42 That would be from an executive and a leadership analysis.
1:05:46 That’s my practical advice and you got to be okay and sometimes this really sucks.
1:05:50 I mean, I’ve coached a lot of CEOs on this who I have to say, look, they don’t have it.
1:05:54 They can’t take you where you want to go.
1:05:56 Silly example to try to drive this home.
1:05:57 I’m big into sports, right?
1:06:02 So it’s like a college football coach comes in and he’s replacing another coach who left
1:06:06 and that coach ran a very different style of offense.
1:06:07 So they had different kind of players.
1:06:11 Maybe they were run based, big guys and it was like a power offense and this guy comes
1:06:14 in and goes, we throw the ball all the time.
1:06:16 So those first couple of years, you know what he’s got to do?
1:06:21 He’s got to go, which one of these kids can stay with me and adapt?
1:06:25 And if they can’t, I got to let them go and I got to go recruit other players.
1:06:28 That’s the simple metaphor there that I think is the issue.
1:06:33 To answer the second part of your question quickly, how do we develop our people?
1:06:36 Well, number one, you got to know them.
1:06:39 And I really like this methodology that I’ve shared.
1:06:42 We were talking about people trying to find their career, but from a leader standpoint,
1:06:47 knowing what someone’s talents are, knowing what their passions are, knowing what their
1:06:53 motivating mission is, you kind of got yourself a profile here, then you go, okay, where can
1:06:57 they grow and let’s look at their solid talents and let’s show them, hey, I want to invest
1:06:58 in you.
1:06:59 All right?
1:07:01 I’d like to see you invest in yourself here.
1:07:05 This is where you’ve got some solid talents, but I think with some learning and doing,
1:07:08 you can turn these into super talents.
1:07:09 That’s the idea.
1:07:11 Constant communication so that they have awareness.
1:07:14 We also know that you care about them and you want them to get better because when they
1:07:18 get better, their paycheck gets bigger, at least it should in a healthy company.
1:07:19 So that’s the idea.
1:07:24 It’s a really smart thing to do as well, because if you find out that maybe there isn’t a place
1:07:29 in your company now, it’s the best thing for them to go to a company where they will thrive,
1:07:33 part of being a boss is understanding that people aren’t going to work for you forever,
1:07:35 and you can help guide them in their career.
1:07:41 Okay, so last question, two-part question, and then we’ll round this interview out.
1:07:47 What do you feel like are going to be the biggest challenges for employers when it comes to
1:07:51 the workplace, and also what are the biggest opportunities?
1:07:55 Biggest challenge is retention.
1:08:00 We just are in a day and age coming out of the pandemic where we saw so many people job
1:08:01 hop.
1:08:04 There’s this tension in the workplace right now between coming back to work or actually
1:08:08 back to pre-pandemic levels on people working in the office.
1:08:11 So those numbers have shrunk back and said there’s this tension because a lot of people
1:08:16 still want to work remote, remote’s drying up as a percentage.
1:08:17 Hybrid is still there.
1:08:21 I think hybrid will be the dominant model going forward, but we’re in this weird tension.
1:08:24 So retention is everything to your point.
1:08:28 People aren’t going to stay with you forever, but to the extent that we can keep good people
1:08:33 longer, then we’re going to see productivity and profitability go, and that’s the key to
1:08:37 winning, and that’s the competitive advantage is people keeping good people longer.
1:08:39 The opportunity there is engagement.
1:08:45 The single most important factor to retention is engagement.
1:08:49 If people don’t want to be there, they won’t want to lead there.
1:08:52 So you’re hoping to develop leaders from within, doesn’t mean you have to, you can recruit
1:08:57 from outside, but we want to create a culture where people want to be there, and people
1:09:00 want to be there if they aren’t engaged.
1:09:01 What does engagement look like?
1:09:04 Well, I hate to keep saying the same note, but it’s true.
1:09:09 They need to be spending three, fours of their day using what they do best to do what they
1:09:12 enjoy to produce results that matter.
1:09:15 It’s your job to get them in a seat on the bus where that’s the case.
1:09:17 Here’s what’s going to happen.
1:09:20 They’re going to be really, really engaged because they’re going to enjoy it.
1:09:21 Think about that.
1:09:22 That’s not a bad day.
1:09:25 So that’s what keeps them coming back because there’s true fulfillment.
1:09:29 Oh, by the way, there’s proficiency because they’re good at it, and the fulfillment comes
1:09:33 in with the love of the work and the work creates a result that they care about.
1:09:37 Now, after that, you’ve got to care for them.
1:09:40 Two questions you’re asking every week in a one-on-one.
1:09:42 How are you doing?
1:09:43 That’s a personal thing.
1:09:45 “Hala, I know your dog’s been struggling.
1:09:46 That’s got to be tough.
1:09:48 Is she going to make it?”
1:09:51 You know, whatever’s going on in their personal life, know enough about them where they go.
1:09:52 “Do you need to take a day?
1:09:53 Take a day.
1:09:55 Go be with the sweet pup.”
1:09:56 That’s real leadership.
1:09:57 How are you doing?
1:09:58 It’s a personal question.
1:10:01 Now, they’re not going to give you that right away, but you ask it enough and you show them
1:10:04 that you care about them and they begin to tell you what’s going on, and for the purposes
1:10:08 of not creeping or overstepping, but just they know that you care about them and you’ll
1:10:13 give them what they need as a person so they’re not dragging stress from home into the office.
1:10:14 That’s key.
1:10:18 Second question is, “What can I do to help you win in your job?
1:10:21 What can I do for you so you can win?”
1:10:25 That second question, they’ll begin to tell you that the more you ask the first question,
1:10:30 because until they know you care, they won’t trust you enough to go, “Well, I don’t feel
1:10:32 like my training was long enough and I’m struggling here.
1:10:37 If I got a little bit more training on that, I could turn the corner and I could crush
1:10:38 it.”
1:10:40 That’s a really tough thing for people to share that’s a vulnerability.
1:10:45 I think that right there is where you can get engagement because then people are saying,
1:10:47 “I’m cared for here.
1:10:48 I’m valued here.
1:10:51 I don’t know if I’d get treated that way somewhere else.”
1:10:57 That will lead to that loyalty and the longevity, which is what we want in engagement.
1:10:59 I think that’s the game changer.
1:11:01 I love all of this advice.
1:11:03 You gave me so much to think about for my own company.
1:11:07 I feel like all the things that you told me about just how other people need to think
1:11:12 about their career for me and other entrepreneurs listening, I feel like probably was super,
1:11:13 super insightful.
1:11:15 Thank you so much for all of that.
1:11:18 I end my show with two questions that I ask all my guests.
1:11:20 You can steer away from the topic.
1:11:22 It doesn’t have to be about today’s topic.
1:11:23 Just answer from your heart.
1:11:28 The first one is, “What is one actionable thing our young and profitors can do today
1:11:30 to become more profitable tomorrow?”
1:11:35 Reflect at the end of every day on two questions.
1:11:39 Where did I win and where did I lose?
1:11:40 So good.
1:11:41 That sets you up for tomorrow.
1:11:47 Just really being present enough to go, “What did I learn today about where I won and where
1:11:48 I lost?”
1:11:51 I think it’s a game changer.
1:11:57 What is your secret to profiting in life and this can go beyond just money and business?
1:12:01 Being the best version of me and I’ve got multiple versions.
1:12:07 I’ve got husband, dad, son, brother, friend, co-worker.
1:12:14 If I can continually look to where can I be better in each of those roles, I’m truly profiting.
1:12:15 Ken, you are awesome.
1:12:17 I had so much fun in this conversation.
1:12:18 You are so smart.
1:12:20 You’re so energetic.
1:12:22 It was such a pleasure to interview you.
1:12:25 Where can everybody go learn more about you and everything that you do?
1:12:26 Thank you.
1:12:30 Iconicom is the place to connect on all the things and really appreciate you and what
1:12:32 you’re doing.
1:12:38 You’re a bright star and you’re a big screw you to all the people who said millennials.
1:12:41 They were the generation that was going to be soft on all this and millennials are the
1:12:45 number one demographic in the workforce now and you represent them well and you’re crushing
1:12:46 it.
1:12:50 You’re leading and our economy depends on your generation and I’m cheering you on.
1:12:52 Oh, thank you so much.
1:12:58 Thanks so much for joining us.
1:12:59 Well, yeah, bam.
1:13:05 That was probably one of my favorite conversations of the year because Ken just had such a great
1:13:08 energy and I feel like we had great chemistry.
1:13:14 And I hope you got a lot out of my conversation with Ken Coleman because so many of us go
1:13:20 through that period, especially in our 20s and even our 30s or 40s.
1:13:25 It doesn’t really matter how old you are, but you feel discouraged and confused about
1:13:33 what you want to exactly do with your life and you’re never ever too old to make a change.
1:13:38 This point in your life can happen where you feel that deep feeling of loss that Ken talked
1:13:43 about, the feeling like you’re wasting your life or doing the wrong thing.
1:13:44 Nothing matters.
1:13:48 You have no passion, no purpose and it’s a horrible feeling.
1:13:50 I was there.
1:13:56 I was there having that feeling before I started this podcast, but it’s never too late to
1:13:57 turn that page.
1:14:02 And sometimes you don’t have to turn that page all that far to get started.
1:14:07 Remember, you can get an enormous benefit from even just a slight pivot from leaning
1:14:13 into something a little bit different from pursuing an interest or a talent in a slightly
1:14:14 new direction.
1:14:22 I know I felt the power of that slight pivot when I shifted from singing to radio to podcasting.
1:14:25 And maybe it’s not a pivot that you need.
1:14:28 Maybe it’s just some life experiences.
1:14:31 Go out there and experiment.
1:14:33 Find out what you really like to do.
1:14:37 Work for free if you have to, even if you don’t have to.
1:14:41 It will pay off in the long run and I promise you that there’s no better way to discover
1:14:47 your own talents or even your super talents as Ken calls them.
1:14:51 And so for example, guys, I’m running a multi-million dollar company right now, but I work for
1:14:53 free all the time.
1:14:56 One way that I work for free is I started a charity project.
1:15:02 I have a volunteer organization where we’re working on a documentary series that I hope
1:15:04 to announce soon.
1:15:06 And it’s something I’ve never done before.
1:15:08 I’ve never done documentaries.
1:15:09 It’s all these new learnings.
1:15:10 We’re working together.
1:15:15 We’re bonding and I’m learning so many different skills.
1:15:18 It’s just a slight pivot from what I’m doing, but I’m learning new skills.
1:15:19 And guess what?
1:15:20 I’m not making a dime.
1:15:23 I’m just getting the experience.
1:15:28 Another way that I work for free now is I take speaking engagements.
1:15:32 And if it makes sense, they’re going to fly me out on a big stage, but they say, “Hey,
1:15:35 Hala, it’s going to be a thousand people in the room and your name is going to be on
1:15:36 that stage.”
1:15:39 And it’s great experience, but we can’t pay you.
1:15:41 We don’t have a budget to pay you.
1:15:46 Right now, I’m okay to say yes, because I’m not the number one speaker in the world.
1:15:48 I don’t have all this experience.
1:15:51 I’m still growing my experience.
1:15:55 And so it’s enough for me to get flown out right now if it’s a big enough stage.
1:15:57 And I want to just rack up those experiences.
1:15:58 I want to get the footage.
1:16:05 I want to feel confident because when you figure out your talents and you use your experiences
1:16:10 paid and free to sharpen them, this builds confidence.
1:16:13 And confidence is truly everything in business.
1:16:18 And part of being confident, like Ken said, is to also be able to say, “I suck at this
1:16:19 particular thing.
1:16:21 I suck at it.
1:16:26 I’m not good at this, and it’s okay to not focus on what you’re not good at.
1:16:28 You’re not going to be good at everything.
1:16:31 For example, I’m really good at making money.
1:16:32 I’m really good at innovating.
1:16:34 I’m really good at marketing.
1:16:39 But I’m not that really good and I’m not passionate about tracking all of it and figuring out
1:16:42 finances and figuring out the books.
1:16:43 I don’t want to do that.
1:16:50 I have a CFO who does that, a business partner who does that because I know that if I focused
1:16:57 on those skills, I would be taken away from making my super talents like selling, marketing
1:17:00 and all that kind of stuff even better.
1:17:04 And it’s better for my company for me to get better at the things I’m already good
1:17:05 at.
1:17:09 So lean into the things that you can do and get help when it comes to those things that
1:17:10 you can’t.
1:17:14 Thanks for listening to this episode of Young and Profiting Podcast.
1:17:19 I’d love for you to take a slight pivot right now instead of turning this podcast off right
1:17:25 away or skipping to the next episode, please take a couple minutes and write us a five-star
1:17:30 review on Apple podcast or Spotify or wherever you listen, Cast Box.
1:17:33 I know I have so many listeners on Cast Box.
1:17:36 Please take a moment, write us a review, write us a comment.
1:17:39 I would love to hear your feedback.
1:17:43 I read our reviews every day and I’m so thankful for the thousands of reviews that we have
1:17:45 on this podcast.
1:17:49 And if you want to watch your podcasts on YouTube, you can find us there.
1:17:54 One thing to note is that I’m moving to an in-person studio setup later this summer.
1:17:56 I’m so excited for that.
1:18:00 I feel like it’s going to level up our whole YouTube experience and I think it’s going
1:18:04 to really grow the podcast and I’m just so excited about that.
1:18:10 So cross your fingers for me and say a prayer that I find the perfect studio in Manhattan.
1:18:15 And if you’re looking for me, you can find me on Instagram @yapithala or LinkedIn by
1:18:16 searching my name.
1:18:17 It’s Hala Taha.
1:18:32 This is your host, Hala Taha, aka The Podcast Princess, signing off.
1:18:36 [MUSIC PLAYING]
1:18:44 [BLANK_AUDIO]

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0:01:13 Yeah, BAM!
0:01:23 Welcome to YAP Classic!
0:01:28 Today we are going to be playing my first interview with Jenna Kutcher.
0:01:33 Now Jenna Kutcher came on the show for episode 295 earlier this week, this Monday, where
0:01:39 we talked about all the different ways that girl makes money and damn, she makes a lot
0:01:40 of money.
0:01:45 But the thing about Jenna is that she only does what she feels like doing.
0:01:49 She tells me no all the time, like, no, I don’t want to do that, that sounds too hard.
0:01:50 I’m not into that.
0:01:55 For me, I’ve got to work hard, got to do it, hustle, grind, and I make money that way.
0:01:59 And I make a lot of money too, but man, Jenna really attracts money.
0:02:01 She’s so inspiring.
0:02:03 She’s the ultimate entrepreneur/mom.
0:02:05 She’s an expert on online marketing.
0:02:10 She’s the host of the hugely, hugely successful podcast, the Gold Digger Podcast, which by
0:02:15 the way is exclusively in the YAP Media Podcast Network, my podcast network.
0:02:19 And she’s also the author of How Are You Really?
0:02:24 Today, I’m replaying my episode 242, where Jenna and I speak about building a business
0:02:26 that fulfills you.
0:02:30 She shares her best actionable advice, social media strategies, productivity hacks, and
0:02:36 entrepreneurial wisdom that helps her figure out her own direction and become a self-made
0:02:37 millionaire.
0:02:42 Jenna is truly one of the women that I admire the most.
0:02:46 And I’m really excited that you guys get to hear her back to back because she is truly
0:02:48 somebody that you should be following.
0:02:53 But further ado, here’s my conversation with Jenna Kutcher that kicked off our amazing
0:03:00 friendship and business relationship.
0:03:04 You grew up in Minnesota, a pretty small town.
0:03:08 Did you have any inkling that you were going to be an entrepreneur when you were a little
0:03:09 girl?
0:03:14 I would say no, but as I started to unpack different things in my life, I’m like, maybe
0:03:15 it was I was in me.
0:03:18 So I am a first-generation entrepreneur.
0:03:19 My dad worked at a paper mill.
0:03:20 My mom was a teacher.
0:03:26 We had no entrepreneurs in our family, but I was this little girl who very early on had
0:03:29 to earn money to get the things she wanted.
0:03:31 And so my parents always instilled that value.
0:03:37 So we lived on this dirt road, and I would host the most epic lemonade stands on a dirt
0:03:39 road that was very seldom trafficked.
0:03:43 And I’m fairly certain my mom would call our neighbors and beg them to come over to buy
0:03:47 lemonade from this little girl who had all these hopes and dreams.
0:03:53 And so when I look back at things like that, there was a piece of me that felt very entrepreneurial,
0:03:57 but it was never on my vision board, never something that I envisioned as a possible
0:03:58 career choice.
0:04:02 Yeah, because when you’re younger, when people ask you what you want to be when you grow
0:04:05 up, entrepreneur is not really on the table.
0:04:08 It’s like firefighter, teacher, cop.
0:04:11 Nobody really talks about entrepreneurship, but it’s funny when you look back how you
0:04:14 can think of stories even myself.
0:04:15 I used to have slushy stands.
0:04:19 I used to sell artwork, put all my cousins to work to make art so I could sell it.
0:04:24 I was always a little entrepreneur, and then it didn’t come full circle until my 20s.
0:04:26 And I know that’s the same with you.
0:04:29 Another thing that I found out about your childhood is that you were a pretty intense
0:04:30 gymnast.
0:04:33 Now, tell us about that experience.
0:04:38 Do you feel like any of that experience has then translated later on in your career as
0:04:40 an entrepreneur?
0:04:41 Totally.
0:04:46 So it’s wild because I now have daughters and my daughters are above the age that I was
0:04:47 when I started.
0:04:52 So I started when I was three and I got so passionate about it.
0:04:58 And there are so many things about it where we had to move to like a club facility that
0:05:01 could support my growth and my parents couldn’t afford it.
0:05:06 It was super expensive when I look at how expensive it was to do lessons every single
0:05:07 day of the week.
0:05:14 So my mom, who was a teacher and a nurse, she was smart enough to notice in the gym that
0:05:16 there were areas that needed renovation.
0:05:21 And so my parents couldn’t afford to pay for my tuition, but my mom was like, “We’re going
0:05:22 to figure this out.”
0:05:28 And so she negotiated with the gym owner and said, “Hey, we can put in some sweat equity.
0:05:29 We can paint the locker room.
0:05:33 We can fix the kitchen in the gym if you allow Jenna to go for free.”
0:05:38 And so every single year, my parents, my grandparents, my siblings, we would all go and work at the
0:05:43 gym for a week and update a certain area of the gym to help me afford this passion of
0:05:44 mine.
0:05:47 And when I look back at that, it makes me so emotional because I’m like, “My parents
0:05:48 never said no.”
0:05:50 They said, “We’ll figure it out.”
0:05:54 And I feel like that’s followed me into entrepreneurship, but there’s so much about that sport.
0:06:01 When I look back, I was tween and I was working out eight hours a day in the summer, four days
0:06:02 a week.
0:06:06 There’s so much work ethic involved in that, but there was also so much joy.
0:06:10 And I feel like entrepreneurship is a lot like that, where they always say entrepreneurs
0:06:15 are the only people that would be willing to leave a nine to five in order to work 24/7.
0:06:17 And I feel like so much of that carried me through.
0:06:22 And so when I look back at that, I think a lot about how driven I was, but how I still
0:06:25 found the joy in that work.
0:06:26 I love that.
0:06:27 That’s such a sweet story.
0:06:29 It’s so nice to hear that your parents supported you.
0:06:35 And I’m actually doing a series with Olympians right now in partnership with the Olympics.
0:06:40 And almost all of the people who I interview, actually, everyone had some crazy support
0:06:44 system because when you’re a kid wanting to do a sport, these things are expensive.
0:06:49 It takes like a whole village to ensure that you could progress in your sports career.
0:06:52 It’s so interesting to note that you also had that experience.
0:06:59 So your career journey, you ended up going to college, not thinking about being an entrepreneur
0:07:04 again, like you were sort of molded into what society wants of you, and you end up being
0:07:05 in corporate.
0:07:11 And I know that in your book, you talk about being in a windowless HR office.
0:07:13 So talk to us about that moment.
0:07:14 How did you end up getting there?
0:07:17 What was the beforehand of that?
0:07:18 And what were you doing at the time?
0:07:19 What were you feeling at the time?
0:07:21 I was so fortunate in college.
0:07:24 I always had an internship going on.
0:07:27 So I was a part of this work study thing to earn my way through school.
0:07:33 And so before my senior year, I did an internship with Target, and we’re from Minnesota.
0:07:35 Target is headquartered in Minnesota.
0:07:36 It’s a big deal, right?
0:07:38 Like we love Target.
0:07:43 And so I worked an entire summer in a store and was given a job opportunity straight out
0:07:49 of college, which felt like a dream come true, to be able to graduate college, having a contract,
0:07:52 having the security, having benefits, and all of those things that have been instilled
0:07:57 in me, especially being from the Midwest with that wholesome culture of like, you just work
0:07:58 hard.
0:08:03 And so I got into working for Target, and I was in HR.
0:08:05 And I loved my team.
0:08:07 I loved the people I worked for.
0:08:11 But I started to recognize that there was this retail aspect, which meant I was working
0:08:13 nights, weekends, holidays.
0:08:18 Gearing up for Black Friday was like gearing up for the Olympics, and I recognized that
0:08:23 in this sort of position, I was never going to have experiences like holidays.
0:08:28 I was never going to experience things through the lens that I had envisioned in my life.
0:08:32 My big dream was to end up in the corporate headquarters in a beautiful office with windows
0:08:34 and high heels and all these things.
0:08:39 And here I am working the office job plus working on the floor in a store with this
0:08:43 fancy title that didn’t really mean much of anything.
0:08:48 And so I had this really eye-opening experience when I sat down with my boss and Target is
0:08:49 an incredible culture.
0:08:53 They have really great leadership skills, like I learned so much.
0:08:55 And she said, “Here’s your five-year plan.
0:08:58 We have planned out the next five years for you.
0:09:00 This is so exciting, isn’t it?”
0:09:03 And never once did they say, “What do you envision for yourself in five years?
0:09:05 Where do you want to go?”
0:09:08 And as I looked at the map that they laid out in front of me, all that it meant was
0:09:10 more work for more money.
0:09:12 It was that trading time for money.
0:09:16 And I realized I don’t want someone to plan my life out for me.
0:09:19 I want to be the author of the plan of my life.
0:09:21 And that was a huge wake-up call.
0:09:25 I remember going back into my office and I had a picture of my then-at-the-time fiancee
0:09:28 who is now my husband of over a decade.
0:09:31 And I saw this picture of him and I was like, “Do I want to spend my life in this office
0:09:35 looking at a picture of the person I love or do I want to figure out a way to build
0:09:38 something different that allows me to spend time with the person I love?”
0:09:41 And that was just a huge wake-up call for me.
0:09:42 I love that.
0:09:47 And so you found yourself 23 realizing that you wanted to make a total shift.
0:09:52 From my understanding, you went on Craigslist, you bought a $300 camera, and you started
0:09:53 a wedding photography business.
0:09:56 This is a big thing to do at 23.
0:09:57 Talk to us about that.
0:09:58 Oh, my gosh.
0:10:02 So I did not buy the camera thinking I’m going to start a business.
0:10:05 I have always loved documenting life.
0:10:10 I was the annoying kid bringing a camera to all the college parties in the empty basements.
0:10:14 I was the person who, like, I just loved images.
0:10:18 I would often look through my parents’ wedding album and have them tell me about their day.
0:10:20 Like, I just loved that.
0:10:24 And at the time, I was planning my wedding to my husband, and we couldn’t afford to
0:10:26 hire a photographer for all of these big things.
0:10:31 And so I was like, “Let’s get a nice camera and then we’ll have nice photos of certain
0:10:33 milestones in that wedding process.”
0:10:37 And I very quickly started to fall in love with the art of it, which is wild because
0:10:40 I had never taken a single art class.
0:10:42 So I had no skill in photography.
0:10:44 I just had an eye.
0:10:48 And I feel like something that, in reflecting and looking back, I have always been someone
0:10:51 who is so good at reverse engineering results.
0:10:55 So when I see that someone gets a result, I’m like, “Okay, what went into getting that?”
0:10:57 And that’s how it was with photography.
0:10:59 It was pre-pinterest.
0:11:03 There were very few wedding blogs at the time, but I would find myself looking at wedding
0:11:07 magazines and imagining, “Okay, where would they be standing in order to get that?”
0:11:09 And I started offering to take pictures for friends.
0:11:14 I would bring my camera along to weddings, which is a huge annoyance to real photographers.
0:11:19 And yet there I was on the sidelines, so excited about capturing moments and getting home and
0:11:20 looking at those moments.
0:11:23 And very slowly, I started to post these things.
0:11:28 I remember my brother and sister-in-law got married in Jamaica and they had a resort photographer.
0:11:30 And I was like, “No, no, no, that’s not going to be good enough.”
0:11:35 So I was hanging her dress up from palm trees and putting out her little split flops with
0:11:37 their wedding rings and styling all this.
0:11:38 And I just came alive.
0:11:42 And I had this Facebook album titled, “My First Wedding Photography Project.”
0:11:44 I think it got four likes in total.
0:11:47 But that was where it all started for me, is I was like, “This is a passion.
0:11:48 This is a thing.
0:11:51 I wonder if I can actually turn it into a career.”
0:11:54 And it took me an entire year to do just that.
0:11:58 But once I became passionate, it was like I couldn’t turn it off.
0:11:59 I love that.
0:12:04 I love the fact that you got so passionate about it, that you put yourself in the position
0:12:06 to gain experience.
0:12:10 Even if it meant working for free, you were so passionate about it that you probably learned
0:12:14 so much about being a photographer, about the equipment itself, about how to capture
0:12:15 these images.
0:12:17 I always talk about this on my podcast.
0:12:23 A lot of people want to be things, but they don’t throw themselves into it and fully absorb
0:12:26 themselves into everything that goes along with it.
0:12:31 That’s how you become the best and why people want to pay you a lot of money to do the services
0:12:32 that you do.
0:12:36 You’re really good at what you do, and that takes time and experience, and sometimes that
0:12:40 means working for free to get that knowledge and experience.
0:12:42 I love that.
0:12:46 You were talking about before how sometimes as entrepreneurs, we quit at nine to five
0:12:48 only to work 24/7.
0:12:50 You ended up quitting your job.
0:12:51 Your business took off.
0:12:55 I think you won many awards, the top wedding photographer in your area and everything like
0:12:56 this.
0:12:59 You were crushing it, but then you started to feel burnt out.
0:13:00 Talk to us about that.
0:13:01 Oh, my gosh.
0:13:07 I will never forget the day, Hala, when I reached this elusive goal that I had set for
0:13:08 myself.
0:13:12 I think we do this a lot in life where we set these arbitrary goals of once I run a marathon,
0:13:18 once I reach 100K, once I do all these things, then my life will be complete.
0:13:21 I had set this goal of earning six figures.
0:13:24 It was a number that felt like $10 million.
0:13:25 It felt so astronomical.
0:13:28 Neither of my parents had ever earned six figures.
0:13:30 It felt impossible.
0:13:31 I remember the day that I hit it.
0:13:34 It was three years into my wedding photography career.
0:13:36 I had exponentially grown my business.
0:13:37 I had grown the skill.
0:13:40 I had grown the expertise and the notoriety.
0:13:41 I remember the day I hit six figures.
0:13:46 I was standing in the shower, washing my hair with the same herbal essence that I had the
0:13:50 day before thinking, “I thought this would feel different.”
0:13:52 I remember wondering, “Where is the confetti?
0:13:54 Where are those gold cellophane balloons?
0:13:58 Where are the people on my porch cheering me on?”
0:14:04 I had this feeling not of joy, not of excellence, but this feeling of emptiness.
0:14:10 I had created this super successful business that had robbed me of my number one currency,
0:14:11 which was time.
0:14:16 I think for so many entrepreneurs, when we’re starting out, we are willing to trade time
0:14:17 for money.
0:14:20 That is usually the requirement to get a business off the ground.
0:14:24 At some point, we hit this tipping point where suddenly time becomes our currency.
0:14:27 We’re willing to exchange money to buy back time.
0:14:29 I hadn’t recognized that yet.
0:14:33 I remember the next day, my husband comes home from work.
0:14:36 He’s slinging wine and selling wine in grocery stores.
0:14:38 I had this whole spreadsheet and I said, “Will you sit down with me?”
0:14:41 I said, “I’m going to say something I never thought I would say.”
0:14:44 I said, “Screw six figures.
0:14:47 I was so much happier when I made 50 grand a year.
0:14:48 Can we go back to that?”
0:14:52 I thought that he would push back or be like, “No, absolutely not.
0:14:53 We’re doing it.”
0:14:55 He looked relieved.
0:14:58 He looked like he was about to get his wife back.
0:15:01 How many of us have lost ourselves in our businesses?
0:15:05 We started these businesses to get freedom and all of a sudden, we realized we’re shackled
0:15:10 to our laptops or we’re booked out every single weekend for months on end.
0:15:16 What I did is I cut back to earn 50K again because that was my currency.
0:15:21 Time was my currency, but when I did that, I built a million-dollar business.
0:15:27 That threw intention, but because I now had time to be creative again, to learn new things,
0:15:32 to dive deep into different aspects of entrepreneurship that I hadn’t been able to explore because
0:15:34 I was too busy.
0:15:39 It was crazy because in the year that I wanted to pull back and earn half, I ended up 10Xing
0:15:40 my income.
0:15:41 Wow.
0:15:43 What year was this?
0:15:46 This was probably 2015, I believe was the year.
0:15:47 Got it.
0:15:53 I know that 2016 was a really huge year for you because that’s when you launched your
0:15:58 first online course, you launched your first email list, you launched the Gold Digger podcast,
0:16:04 which guys is a huge podcast for so many years now, one of the biggest podcasts in the world.
0:16:08 You also have a huge Instagram profile that I think has been around for a long time.
0:16:10 I was curious to understand what happened first.
0:16:14 I’m assuming a lot of this transition happened in 2015 like you’re just talking about now.
0:16:16 What did you do first?
0:16:20 When did you first started making other revenue streams outside of your wedding business and
0:16:23 becoming more of a digital personality?
0:16:30 In 2015, when I finally cut back, I started to take online courses.
0:16:34 I didn’t even know they were a thing, I didn’t know they existed, I didn’t know what I would
0:16:35 learn in them, I didn’t know.
0:16:40 The first online course I took, I had gotten on the phone with this guy, he was doing a
0:16:43 free coaching call and I was like, “I don’t have a business coach, I’ll get on this free
0:16:44 call.”
0:16:49 In that coaching call, he sold me his course and I said, “I will only buy this course if
0:16:51 you teach me how you made it.”
0:16:56 I knew that while the content inside of the course would be great, what I really wanted
0:16:59 to know and get the steps of is how can I create my own?
0:17:02 No one was teaching that at the time.
0:17:06 He delivered his actual course, but then he also did calls with me where I’m like, “What
0:17:07 did you use to record this?
0:17:08 How are you uploading it?
0:17:10 How are you delivering it?”
0:17:14 What I had started doing is in the off season because my wedding season in the Midwest was
0:17:16 about six months of the year.
0:17:20 In my off season, I had started mentoring other photographers, but I started to recognize
0:17:24 there were so many themes in the things they were asking me.
0:17:28 They had the same questions, they wanted the same information, they wanted to understand
0:17:32 this one piece of my business and I was like, “Okay, I can continue to do these one-on-one
0:17:39 sessions in the kitchen of my condo or I could create something that could serve many.
0:17:41 I could create it once and serve many.”
0:17:43 I needed to figure out how to do that.
0:17:47 That’s when I started really diving deep into what is this online world?
0:17:51 The first time I got on the phone with this business coach, she said, “Jenna, how big
0:17:52 is your list?”
0:17:53 I thought he meant my to-do list.
0:17:57 I was like, “What do you mean my to-do list is so long?”
0:17:58 He wasn’t talking about that.
0:18:01 He was talking about my email list.
0:18:04 I did not even understand why would anyone want an email list?
0:18:05 Do people even read emails?
0:18:07 What do I have to say?
0:18:08 How does this work?
0:18:13 That was when I really got turned on to email marketing and understanding that it’s an asset
0:18:14 that you own.
0:18:18 You can’t control the experience that your Instagram followers get or followers on other
0:18:21 platforms, but an email list is this asset.
0:18:26 It’s not shiny, it’s not sexy, but it’s something that you absolutely have to invest in.
0:18:32 That was when I started to go deep into this digital space of email list building, online
0:18:35 course creating, what does this all look like?
0:18:41 That was when I really started to see my business start to take off in a different direction.
0:18:45 You built your email list and you launched a course and you tell me the order of everything.
0:18:47 How did it all blow up?
0:18:49 Your platforms are really impressive.
0:18:53 The first course that I launched was in 2015 and it was kind of my trial run of how do
0:18:54 I do this?
0:18:57 I only had 841 people on my email list.
0:18:59 This was not a huge audience.
0:19:02 I think a lot of people are like, “Okay, well now I got to get tons of people.”
0:19:05 841 people on my email list.
0:19:07 The price of the course was $1,500.
0:19:08 Get this, Hala.
0:19:12 It was audio-only because I didn’t know how to do any video, I didn’t know how to edit.
0:19:17 I literally recorded it into a microphone while sitting into my bed and I made $35,000
0:19:22 on my first course launch with no paid ads back in 2015.
0:19:26 This was something that was amazing because I’m like, “Wait, people need to know what
0:19:28 I know.
0:19:29 People want the shortcuts.”
0:19:32 Yes, they could go out and Google it, but they’re not going to piece it together in
0:19:33 the way that I want.
0:19:36 They want the roadmap.
0:19:42 This is a sustainable way to create something once, serve many and get other people results.
0:19:47 That was so transformative to me where I was like, “I made almost half of my salary in
0:19:50 one launch if this can work.
0:19:53 Think about what would happen if I threw gasoline on the fire.”
0:19:54 I love that.
0:19:55 That’s amazing.
0:19:57 I remember having the same experience with my masterclass, no paid ads.
0:20:01 I think we made $60,000 the first time we did it.
0:20:06 When you have the real experience and the social proof, like you were already an award-winning
0:20:11 photographer, you had all the social proof people want to learn from real experts.
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0:25:13 Tell us about when you decided to launch a podcast and how did you launch that?
0:25:20 Coming from you, this podcasting expert, my story was an experiment.
0:25:24 I look at everything in my business is like an experiment.
0:25:28 As a wedding photographer, I was so busy and overwhelmed for six months out of the year,
0:25:32 and then the other six months, I had time to do other things and projects.
0:25:34 I was lonely.
0:25:36 I don’t know if you experienced this, Hala.
0:25:39 I feel like when I started my business, I was so head down.
0:25:42 I looked at other people’s competition.
0:25:46 I had a lot of identity crisis and imposter syndrome.
0:25:48 I didn’t really want to be in the mix with other people.
0:25:52 I was like, I’m just going to keep my head down, stay in my lane and go.
0:25:55 When I finally lifted my eyes, I’m like, there’s nobody with me.
0:25:57 I’m really lonely on this journey.
0:25:59 I want to talk to other people who get it.
0:26:04 When I started my podcast, it was literally this experiment and this opportunity to invite
0:26:05 people into conversation.
0:26:10 I wanted to talk about how are you handling client rejection or what are you doing for
0:26:11 contracts or invoices?
0:26:16 At the beginning, my show was interview only, which did not work out well for me.
0:26:20 I recorded it from the front seat of my parked car in my garage because I was afraid my dogs
0:26:21 were going to bark.
0:26:22 I didn’t even own a microphone.
0:26:26 I had iPhone headphones, and I was like, all right, let’s just do this.
0:26:30 I committed to doing it for 90 days, and I was like, let’s just see how it feels.
0:26:34 I can always quit it if it doesn’t work, if I run out of things to say.
0:26:37 Here we are years and years and years later, and it’s evolved.
0:26:42 I think one lesson from this is that so often when we start a new project, we overthink
0:26:45 all the things that don’t really matter.
0:26:50 I remember worrying about the cover art, the title, how am I going to sign in and sign off
0:26:51 of every episode?
0:26:52 How long is it going to be?
0:26:53 What is the format?
0:26:54 When is it going to be published?
0:26:58 All of those things have changed and evolved over the last seven years, and my show has
0:27:00 stayed consistent.
0:27:05 One thing that you brought up is so many people don’t actually dive in and do the thing.
0:27:09 We think about all the things around the thing, whether you’re writing a book or starting
0:27:11 a podcast or starting a business.
0:27:15 You fixate on all the decisions you have to make instead of doing the actual thing, which
0:27:18 in my case was sitting down and hitting record.
0:27:23 Once I did that, the rest is history, but it was so easy for us to overthink all those
0:27:24 things.
0:27:29 My podcast started as an experiment, and we’re still going strong 100 million downloads later.
0:27:33 For context, I started my podcast two years later than yours.
0:27:36 In 2018, you started in 2016.
0:27:43 When I started in 2018, it was a really innovative, unique thing for a young woman to be starting
0:27:44 a business podcast.
0:27:48 I can’t even imagine two years before, what a head start.
0:27:53 Did you feel like you were pioneering this space because there really wasn’t much competition
0:27:54 at the time?
0:27:55 Talk to me about that.
0:27:59 I remember there weren’t no other women at the top of the charts.
0:28:04 Literally, I remember being the only women in the business category, which was wild to
0:28:11 me and also super interesting because at the time, my experience was in the creative entrepreneur
0:28:12 space.
0:28:15 Not a lot of people consider themselves creative entrepreneurs.
0:28:19 It’s like the photographers, the graphic designers, the digital artists, all those.
0:28:25 To be able to branch out and speak to a really wide audience was something that was very
0:28:26 new.
0:28:28 I didn’t see myself as a pioneer.
0:28:33 I just saw myself as someone who was imperfectly showing up with a phone voice and trying to
0:28:34 get through.
0:28:39 There have been so many ebbs and flows within that creation process, times where I’ve loved
0:28:42 my podcast, times where I’m just sitting down and showing up to the mic.
0:28:47 I think that the biggest thing is, is that consistency breeds confidence.
0:28:50 Confidence comes through in everything you do.
0:28:55 Even on those weeks where I have nothing to say, it’s like sit down and start talking.
0:28:56 Things are going to come out.
0:28:57 I think that’s really powerful.
0:28:58 Yeah.
0:29:00 So many great lessons in there.
0:29:04 One thing that I want to dig on is that you were saying that I was really lonely as an
0:29:08 entrepreneur and something that I realized, we’re very similar, but very different with
0:29:09 one thing.
0:29:14 I was on the phone the other day with your right-hand woman, Christy.
0:29:16 She was telling me, she’s like, “Yeah, it’s just basically me and Jenna.”
0:29:18 I was like, “What?
0:29:19 How?
0:29:24 I had like 10 volunteers since episode two of my podcast and I have 60 people on my
0:29:28 team and 15 people that just work on my podcast.”
0:29:29 I was like, “How is this possible?
0:29:33 Jenna’s show is five to 10 times bigger than mine.
0:29:35 How is that possible and what’s the logic behind that?”
0:29:40 And so, curious to understand why you’ve kept your team so small.
0:29:44 It’s so funny because I think, “Oh, that’s just normal.
0:29:46 We just need one person to help this thing grow.”
0:29:53 When I started my podcast, I literally only had one part-time VA on my team.
0:29:57 When I started it, it was still me wearing all the hats, doing all the things with one
0:29:59 person who’s helping me respond to emails.
0:30:01 I was like, “Hey, I got this idea.
0:30:03 I’m going to start a podcast and we’re going to start it in a few weeks.”
0:30:05 And like, we ran with it.
0:30:08 I never envisioned myself becoming a boss.
0:30:11 I think a lot of entrepreneurs start the thing because they’re passionate about the
0:30:14 thing and all of a sudden it grows into a real business and all of a sudden you feel
0:30:18 like you’re getting pulled out of those creative endeavors to manage people.
0:30:22 And that was never my vision, especially coming from the corporate world where I had a team
0:30:25 of like 150 that I was overseeing.
0:30:28 And so we run a very lean team.
0:30:34 So even on my team today for a multi-multi-million-dollar business, I have six people on payroll and
0:30:42 10 people in total with those six as contractors, total, to run the podcast, the book, the courses,
0:30:44 every aspect of it.
0:30:49 And most of my team members have been with me for four plus years, but we just still
0:30:51 have that get it done mentality.
0:30:56 And one thing that I often ask myself is what would this look like if it were easy?
0:31:01 And I think that a lot of times we overcomplicate things and make them really big and scary
0:31:04 and intimidating so that we don’t actually take action.
0:31:10 And so up until this year, I recorded my podcast in a spare closet, not a cute closet, not
0:31:15 a decorated closet, a closet with the boxes that say like random shit on them.
0:31:17 And that was where I recorded my podcast.
0:31:20 And I’ve always just had this mentality of like, I’m going to just show up in the way
0:31:22 that I can show up.
0:31:26 And we have created systems that make it totally possible.
0:31:30 Now, let me say, Hala, that there is so much opportunity for growth.
0:31:35 And I feel like I have been intentionally putting my foot on the brake pedal for a while because
0:31:41 I want to be so present as a mom in this very like important time in my kids’ lives.
0:31:45 And I’ve always believed within myself, I can hit the brake pedal and I will not forget
0:31:46 where the gas is.
0:31:48 I know where the gas is.
0:31:50 I know I’m intentionally doing this.
0:31:52 I’m slowing down, but I’m not losing momentum.
0:31:53 I believe that.
0:31:58 And so now I’m at this place where I’m like, OK, maybe we can expand, maybe we can grow.
0:32:00 Maybe we can invite more people into the fold.
0:32:03 But I have always just approached things of like, what would this look like if it were
0:32:06 easy because done is better than perfect.
0:32:09 And that’s how I’ve run my entire life and my career.
0:32:10 Yeah.
0:32:13 And it just goes to show that you can do things in so many different ways.
0:32:18 And I do know that the more smaller the team, the more aligned everybody is, the more that
0:32:20 the company culture is super strong.
0:32:24 As you get really big, it gets really hard to control everything, and that’s when little
0:32:25 mistakes happen.
0:32:28 So I’m always trying to like, OK, how can I make my team smaller and more compact and
0:32:30 have the best talent ever, right?
0:32:33 So let’s talk about the business behind your brand.
0:32:36 You just said your multi-million dollar business.
0:32:38 You are absolutely crushing it in so many different areas.
0:32:41 What are the different revenue streams that Jenna Kutcher has today?
0:32:42 Yeah.
0:32:43 All right.
0:32:44 Let’s see if I can do this.
0:32:45 OK.
0:32:49 So online courses, we do really well as an affiliate for different products.
0:32:53 So products that I love are courses that I’ve taken that have changed my life.
0:32:58 I will sing those praises and share about them until my face is blue.
0:33:00 So we do great with affiliates.
0:33:04 The podcast is its own entity that does incredibly well.
0:33:06 We also have rental properties.
0:33:11 So we have a few different rental properties and we run Airbnb as a side gig.
0:33:16 I also do different Instagram partnerships and sponsorships.
0:33:21 We have a digital product shop where we sell different templates and presets.
0:33:23 I have a journal and a book that I sell.
0:33:26 So there are many different revenue streams.
0:33:32 I remember hearing years ago that the average millionaire has seven revenue streams.
0:33:34 And I was like, OK, let me make eight.
0:33:36 Let me make nine.
0:33:37 What does this look like?
0:33:42 One thing I love about that is as someone who is creative and I also have ADHD, I never
0:33:46 want to feel like I have to keep doing something or the business will crumble.
0:33:49 Because as a wedding photographer, that’s where I found myself.
0:33:54 I only got paid if I showed up and we were in a really hard season in a personal season
0:33:56 trying to grow our family.
0:34:01 And I remember having to show up to a wedding when I would rather have been in the fetal
0:34:06 position and promising myself, I’m going to figure out a different way to do this so
0:34:10 that if I need a human moment, if I need to rest, I have a business that can run while
0:34:11 I rest.
0:34:16 And so if you notice, most of our revenue streams are all kind of self-sustaining.
0:34:18 They’re not totally passive.
0:34:20 We definitely work on them.
0:34:26 But they also don’t require me to be showing up every single day in order to earn income.
0:34:32 You are such a great example of an influencer that has taken her brand and has monetized
0:34:37 her expertise and to your point, now you’re able to sort of take breaks when you want
0:34:41 to take breaks, hold off on things when you feel like holding off.
0:34:44 So I absolutely love what you’ve built.
0:34:49 So let’s talk about a new revenue stream that you have, which is your latest book.
0:34:54 It’s called How Are You Really Living Your Truth One Answer At A Time.
0:34:57 And I’d love to understand the genesis of this book.
0:34:58 Why did you write it?
0:34:59 Yeah.
0:35:05 So I don’t know if you’ve ever done this, but I have said multiple times, I will never
0:35:06 write a book.
0:35:08 I will never do something, right?
0:35:10 And I’m like, never say never.
0:35:14 So for a very long time in my business, I was like, I don’t get why anyone would write
0:35:15 a book.
0:35:16 It takes so much time.
0:35:17 You don’t make a lot of money.
0:35:19 What is the point of this?
0:35:23 And the point of that statement was I didn’t have a message that I cared about enough to
0:35:29 do all the work that is required to not just write a book, but to get it out into reader’s
0:35:30 hands.
0:35:33 And it’s so interesting because I’m sitting in this space right now.
0:35:35 We’re on the shore of Lake Superior.
0:35:37 We bought this lake house.
0:35:40 And the second I walked into this space, I said, if I ever write a book, it’s going to
0:35:41 be in this space.
0:35:44 It’s just this beautiful, inspiring space.
0:35:45 Well, guess what happens?
0:35:47 The world shuts down.
0:35:51 There is a pandemic and suddenly we’re living up at our cabin in the woods and I’m sitting
0:35:53 in this leather chair.
0:35:57 And I had this very interesting experience, which I tell the story in the book, but I’ll
0:35:59 give the short version.
0:36:00 I had booked us massages.
0:36:02 The world was creeping back open.
0:36:03 It was our anniversary.
0:36:07 And I was like, I’m going to do something nice for us as a couple.
0:36:09 So I booked us these massages.
0:36:15 And the woman who did our massages in this tiny town of 1,200 people was this very intuitive
0:36:16 woman.
0:36:19 And she introduces herself and says, hi, Amphia.
0:36:20 I’m an intuitive healer.
0:36:22 I’m doing your massage today.
0:36:23 Lay down on the table.
0:36:24 I get my rub down.
0:36:26 At the end, she says, can I tell you what came up for you today?
0:36:28 And I was like, sure, whatever.
0:36:34 And she goes, there is something that you need to do and you’re avoiding it.
0:36:36 And I need you to go out and do that thing.
0:36:40 And the second she said that to me, I knew right away and she goes, do you know what
0:36:41 I’m talking about?
0:36:43 And I said, dang it, it’s right a book.
0:36:46 And it was so weird because she never said to me like, Jenna, you need to go write a
0:36:49 book or, you know, why haven’t you written a book?
0:36:51 She just said, there’s something you need to do and you already know what it is.
0:36:56 And I think that this is so powerful for you as a listener is when you hear that line.
0:36:58 What is the first thing that pops into your head?
0:37:02 Because there are things on our hearts that we have either said, I’m never going to do
0:37:06 this or I don’t have time to do this or why would I do this?
0:37:10 And the minute that I got that clarity, it became so crystal clear.
0:37:14 That night I went home, I opened up a Google doc, titled it, I’m writing a book.
0:37:16 And I sat down and started writing.
0:37:20 And what was really interesting about my process is that so many people, if they have
0:37:23 a platform, they go out and get an agent.
0:37:26 And then they write the book proposal and then they do the pitch and then they get the
0:37:27 book deal.
0:37:31 I did everything backwards because I said, for so long, I said, I’m never going to do
0:37:32 this.
0:37:35 I want to do this and I want it to matter even if nobody ever reads it.
0:37:37 I don’t want to write words that sell.
0:37:39 I want to write words that tell.
0:37:43 And even if they tell my story to my daughters someday, it’s worth it.
0:37:47 And so I went into this writing process with no book deal, with no deadline, because for
0:37:52 me, as someone who’s creative, the two things that kill my creativity fastest are money
0:37:53 and deadlines.
0:37:57 And I said, if I want to do this in a way that feels authentic, where I can present
0:38:01 and say, this is the story I want to tell, I don’t want to tell the story that you want
0:38:02 me to tell.
0:38:03 I want to tell this story.
0:38:05 And so I wrote in silence.
0:38:06 I didn’t announce it to my audience.
0:38:08 I didn’t announce it to my family.
0:38:11 Just my husband and I knew that I was working on writing.
0:38:12 We didn’t know what it would become.
0:38:14 We didn’t know if it would become anything.
0:38:18 And it was such a beautiful process, because I felt like when I finally made that decision,
0:38:22 like, I’m going to do this, the words just poured out of me.
0:38:27 And it was such a sacred, creative experience for someone who had been in that business
0:38:29 space of just more, more, more.
0:38:31 It was like, let’s do this because we enjoy it.
0:38:35 And it brought back the joy into my work in so many different ways.
0:38:39 What you’re saying is so unique, because I talk to authors all the time.
0:38:42 I’m in the process of writing a book, and what you’re saying is correct, like you get
0:38:43 an agent.
0:38:46 You say, okay, for somebody to help you write your proposal, and you go, and I’m like you
0:38:47 where I want to write my own book.
0:38:50 I want to care about my own book.
0:38:56 But what you did was obviously so magnetic, because I went and when I study from my interviews,
0:39:00 I read all the book reviews that people are obsessed with this book and really transformed
0:39:01 their lives.
0:39:03 And it’s because you poured your heart into it.
0:39:07 You didn’t do it so you could get more speaking events or make money like you just wanted to
0:39:08 give back.
0:39:13 Yeah, it’s so interesting too, Halle, because being in the experience yourself, it is a
0:39:15 long tail thing.
0:39:19 And I think in a digital world where we’re so used to like ideating and creating and
0:39:24 publishing and getting feedback, writing a book is a really personal experience, right?
0:39:27 Because you don’t know if people are going to love it, if they’re going to get anything
0:39:28 out of it.
0:39:34 You have to love it enough to want to talk about it, to want to land into people’s hands.
0:39:39 And it’s so funny because so many of my friends are authors and amazing authors and so many
0:39:42 of them hated the experience.
0:39:46 And I feel like I’m one of the few that have come out of the experience of writing and marketing
0:39:49 and selling and enjoying the book process.
0:39:56 I loved every bit of it, but I did every bit of it in a way that protected my creativity
0:39:58 and my passion.
0:40:04 And so I am still on fire for my book and I love that about it because I just feel like
0:40:07 so many authors after a while, they’re like, “I’m done talking about it.
0:40:09 I don’t want to talk about it anymore.”
0:40:10 And I’m like, “Let’s go.”
0:40:11 I love it.
0:40:16 I can feel the energy and how much you just really enjoyed this.
0:40:17 I got to take a page from your book.
0:40:22 Maybe I should write my book first and then go through the process to your point.
0:40:23 It’s like a lot less pressure.
0:40:28 Okay, so one of the things that you talk about in your book is creating a life inventory
0:40:33 because you need to know where you want to go and where you are in order to make a change.
0:40:36 So how do we go about creating a life inventory?
0:40:37 Yeah, I love this.
0:40:43 So the premise of my book is not to hear my voice as you read it, but to come back home
0:40:44 to yourself.
0:40:49 I think that so many of us have gone through life and we’ve kind of numbed out that inner
0:40:54 intuition, that knowing, that whisper that we often don’t hear because the world is
0:40:55 so noisy.
0:41:00 And so one of the things that I love about the life inventory is it beckons you to really
0:41:02 think about when is the last time I felt joy?
0:41:04 When is the last time I felt alive?
0:41:06 When is the last time I felt frustrated?
0:41:11 And it’s funny because as I was writing the book, I was dealing with a toddler who had
0:41:13 a lot of feelings.
0:41:17 And so I’m like working with her through her feelings and I’m like, “You know, as
0:41:19 adults, we just try to rush through feelings.
0:41:22 If we’re sad, we try to get to happy.”
0:41:27 And I think that there is so much shame around the different feelings that we have of like,
0:41:31 “Surely I must be broken, that I’m not satisfied,” or “Something is wrong with me.
0:41:33 Maybe it hasn’t been enough.
0:41:35 Maybe I just need to go after more.”
0:41:40 And so I love this idea of like this forensic style inventory of your life because I think
0:41:44 what has happened for so many of us is that we think success looks a certain way, but we
0:41:48 never ask ourselves, “What do we want success to feel like?”
0:41:52 There’s a chapter called “Feelings Are Meant To Be Felt,” because we have rushed through
0:41:54 or numbed out our feelings.
0:41:56 We don’t even know how we feel anymore.
0:41:59 And then we wonder like, “Why am I waking up at three in the morning with my brain racing
0:42:02 and this feeling of like, is this all there is to life?
0:42:05 Like, is this what I’ve worked so hard to get?”
0:42:10 And so I love just really taking an inventory and saying, “When was the last time I was happy?
0:42:11 When was the last time I was satisfied?
0:42:14 When was the last time I felt successful?”
0:42:18 And really trying to see if there are trends in there or signals that maybe you need to
0:42:22 pivot or change or move away from something and move toward something else.
0:42:28 And I know that when we are on autopilot in our life, we might not realize that we’ve
0:42:30 golden handcuffs on.
0:42:34 There’s something that we think is good that actually is preventing us from going out and
0:42:38 accomplishing our true dreams that we have for ourselves.
0:42:39 Can you talk to us about that?
0:42:44 Yeah, so when I think of the golden handcuffs, it’s all of these promises that people make
0:42:46 to us that keep us stuck.
0:42:50 And so for me, it was that five-year plan that they thought was pretty, but really made
0:42:51 me want to shift.
0:42:56 You know, the benefits, the 401(k), all those things, they’re all amazing, right?
0:43:00 But those are the things where we find ourselves saying, “I should feel really grateful for
0:43:01 this.
0:43:02 I should feel fulfilled with this.”
0:43:04 And yet there’s something missing.
0:43:07 And I remember having this conversation with one of my best friends and she has been so
0:43:10 deeply unsatisfied with her job for so long.
0:43:12 And I felt like it was Groundhog’s Day.
0:43:15 Every time I talked to her, she would tell me all the things she hated about her job.
0:43:18 And then she would try to wrap up those statements with a pretty bow.
0:43:23 But you know, we have unlimited vacation time and there’s a ping-pong table in the break
0:43:24 room.
0:43:25 And I said, “One, do you take vacation?”
0:43:26 The answer was no.
0:43:28 Two, do you like ping-pong?
0:43:29 No.
0:43:33 And I said, “All of these things that are painted as benefits are actually just keeping
0:43:34 you stuck.”
0:43:39 I think that it’s so powerful for us to really understand what is holding us back and what
0:43:43 are these things that people are painting as shiny, but they really show up as dull
0:43:44 in our lives.
0:43:49 And how do we actually pursue the things that really give us this full, vibrant life that
0:43:51 we want and what does that look like?
0:43:54 And I think it could look different for all of us, even as entrepreneurs.
0:43:57 There are different things in our aspect where we’re like, “This just doesn’t resonate or
0:44:02 this doesn’t feel in alignment anymore, but I should keep going with this because it’s
0:44:06 like that sunk cost fallacy of like, “Well, I’ve already invested so much time into this.
0:44:08 I might as well finish it out.”
0:44:12 Wait, you’re missing out on the time to pivot, to change, to evolve?
0:44:17 And I think that we need to celebrate those choices just as much as we celebrate those
0:44:20 shiny successes that we see all over the internet.
0:44:21 Totally.
0:44:26 And one of the things is that some people sometimes don’t understand their own intuition
0:44:29 or how to follow their own intuition, trust their own gut.
0:44:33 So something that I thought that you did really, really good in your book is you struck a balance
0:44:38 between spiritual alignment with what you want to do, as well as practical goal-setting,
0:44:40 practical goal-getting.
0:44:44 You actually need to visualize, you know, manifest, but then do the thing, right?
0:44:47 Like we were talking about in the beginning of the podcast.
0:44:52 We’ll be right back after a quick break from our sponsors.
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0:49:10 So I want to read an excerpt from your book that really touched me.
0:49:14 And it’s because I think a lot of people in my life, I know, are just like sort of on
0:49:15 autopilot.
0:49:19 They have bigger dreams for themselves and a lot of listeners, I feel like that reach
0:49:20 out to me.
0:49:21 They also feel stuck.
0:49:22 They don’t know what to do.
0:49:25 They’re doing okay in their job, but they just don’t know how to change.
0:49:30 So you say beyond getting really honest about the things that might not be okay, we stifle
0:49:32 the things that make us come alive.
0:49:38 It’s like we all end up chattering about on this banged up planet carrying these big dreams
0:49:42 and audacious goals and boundary breaking ideas and we keep them quiet all throughout
0:49:46 the week in the checkout line on the conference call around the dinner table.
0:49:50 We are walking around with wild parts of ourselves unspoken.
0:49:51 So let’s spend some time here.
0:49:53 What do you think of when you hear this quote?
0:49:58 I think about how often we belittle our life’s work.
0:50:02 I don’t know about you, Halla, but like when you are starting your show and stuff, if somebody
0:50:03 asks you like, what do you do?
0:50:07 It’s like, oh, I have a little podcast or I do this little side thing or I’m trying
0:50:09 to start this thing.
0:50:15 And I think that we’ve gotten so good as a society at compartmentalizing our lives into
0:50:19 these tiny little containers saying, okay, this is the mother side of me.
0:50:20 This is the wife side of me.
0:50:22 This is the business side of me.
0:50:24 And we don’t really show up as our whole selves.
0:50:29 And I think that in order to live a whole life, we have to figure out ways to integrate
0:50:33 each aspect of ourselves into the work that we do.
0:50:36 Me being a mother doesn’t take away from me being a CEO.
0:50:41 In fact, I can add to that if I bring some of those feminine vibes into my work.
0:50:45 And so what I’ve tried to kind of break down is that there are so many of us who are moving
0:50:50 through life and we’re belittling our dreams or we’re just kind of shrinking down to fit
0:50:55 into society’s standards or what people expect from us instead of bringing our whole self
0:50:59 to the conversation and saying, yes, I am this, but I am also this.
0:51:03 It’s like the both and conversations instead of either or.
0:51:07 And I think for so many of us, especially in such a polarizing world, we feel like we
0:51:08 have to choose, right?
0:51:13 You either have to be the girl boss or you need to stay at home and homestead.
0:51:18 You are either the hustler or you are the present one.
0:51:20 And I think there’s room at the table for everyone.
0:51:24 And that’s why I think what I love about my book is it’s kind of what you’re suggesting.
0:51:28 It’s where the womb meets the work where, yes, you can manifest, but you also have to
0:51:29 take action.
0:51:30 What does that action look like?
0:51:36 I love showing up as my chaotic whole self because I feel like if I’m only giving people
0:51:40 this one piece of me, they’re not knowing the full picture.
0:51:44 And I think it’s so powerful when we kind of pull back the curtain and say, here’s who
0:51:45 I am.
0:51:46 Here’s how I show up.
0:51:47 Here’s what I’m dreaming of.
0:51:50 It also invites other people to dream a little bit bigger.
0:51:51 I love that.
0:51:53 Everything you’re saying is so beautiful.
0:51:58 In terms of actually following your intuition, you always say, pursue what feels good.
0:52:00 How can we tell what feels good?
0:52:03 One thing that I often think about is I have ADHD.
0:52:07 And for years and years and years, I told myself, I can never be a person who meditates.
0:52:10 All the successful people in the world be like, I meditate for 10 minutes a day.
0:52:14 And I’m like, I can’t even imagine sitting alone with my thoughts, like what that would
0:52:15 look like.
0:52:20 And what I’ve learned over the years is that what we need to bring into our lives is more
0:52:21 awareness.
0:52:26 When we start to notice things, we are able to change, we’re able to evolve, we’re able
0:52:27 to dive deeper.
0:52:31 And I feel like so many of us don’t even notice our lives.
0:52:34 We don’t pay attention to the things that feel good.
0:52:37 We are so consumed by what looks good.
0:52:41 When I was a wedding photographer, I would always say, I want to shoot weddings where
0:52:44 the marriages are more beautiful than the wedding day.
0:52:49 As an online influencer, I want to live a life that is even more full and beautiful
0:52:51 offline than the one that you see online.
0:52:55 And I think that a lot of people get it flipped and twisted where they’re like, here’s my
0:52:58 highlight reel, but behind the scenes, I’m falling apart.
0:53:02 And I think that when we can bring a level of awareness to the work that we do, to the
0:53:06 way that we show up, to the relationships we’re in, it allows us to grow and stretch
0:53:11 as a human being, but it also allows us to pay attention and notice the things that feel
0:53:13 good, that feel right.
0:53:17 Because I am not someone who is going to tell you, follow your dreams and you’ll never work
0:53:21 a day in your life because most of us don’t even know how to dream anymore.
0:53:25 And so for me, if I am paying attention and aware, I might be noticing the things that
0:53:28 no longer resonate, that are no longer in alignment.
0:53:33 And that might guide my path just as much as knowing where I want to go does.
0:53:40 And so, Kari, as to understand, do you feel anybody can turn what they’re passionate about,
0:53:44 what they’re interested in learning about into a career, like how do we know if we should
0:53:49 actually pursue and turn our passion into a career?
0:53:50 I love this question.
0:53:58 So for a very long time, I was someone who preached entrepreneurship is the way until
0:54:01 I realized that the world cannot be filled with entrepreneurs, right?
0:54:06 Some people are meant to be employees and joyful employees at that.
0:54:11 What I think is so important is if you can protect your passion and monetize it with
0:54:13 joy, go for it.
0:54:17 But not every passion needs to become a business.
0:54:19 And I’ve had to learn that throughout my entire career.
0:54:23 There are certain passions and hobbies where I could find myself thinking of a million
0:54:27 ways that I could monetize it, and I’m like, “No, keep this sacred.
0:54:30 Keep this just as a piece of your passion.”
0:54:34 And so the big thing is, is it something that you will still find joy in when you start
0:54:38 to bring in those parameters like we were talking about, like with the book, deadlines
0:54:40 and invoices and money?
0:54:42 Are you still going to be passionate about that thing?
0:54:46 If the answer is no, keep it and preserve that passion for yourself.
0:54:51 But if you would feel like a million dollars if somebody pays you 10 to do the thing you
0:54:56 love, then maybe that’s a sign that it is something that you should pursue as a potential
0:54:57 business.
0:55:01 So something else that you speak about a lot is this small steps approach.
0:55:03 You’ve got to take the small, consistent action.
0:55:08 You even talk about taking unbelievably small action to get started.
0:55:12 Talk to us about why you think that’s really important and how it builds confidence.
0:55:18 How many people listening are using perfection as a means to procrastinate?
0:55:25 I think that everyone, right, you want to be able to show the after without ever showing
0:55:26 the messy middle, right?
0:55:30 We want to see that transformation, whatever that looks like in your life.
0:55:33 And so so many of us are moving through life, waiting for the after to happen so that we
0:55:37 can finally reveal it to the world and share all the secrets behind it.
0:55:42 And what I think is so powerful is showing up and taking those teeny, tiny steps that
0:55:46 no one’s going to clap for, that no one’s even going to notice if they were following
0:55:47 you.
0:55:51 Because what happens is, is as you start to take action, your confidence grows.
0:55:53 And when your confidence grows, you become consistent.
0:55:57 And when you’re consistent at something, you’re putting in the reps that allow you to get
0:55:58 the results.
0:56:04 And so I am so sick of people that are holding back and they’re saying someday I will launch
0:56:06 a podcast or write a book or start the business someday.
0:56:07 I’m working on it.
0:56:10 I just, I got to figure out this and this and this and this.
0:56:14 And they’re procrastinating and using perfection as a means to do that.
0:56:18 And so if you look at my career in any step of the way, I feel like I could scroll through
0:56:22 the hundreds and thousands of posts that I post on Instagram and say that wasn’t fake.
0:56:24 That was exactly where it was in that moment.
0:56:28 I was learning something new and I was showing people and let me tell you that it is so much
0:56:33 more inspiring for people to see someone that is just one step ahead of them than a million.
0:56:38 And so if you’re waiting to unveil this idea or business or project until you’re a million
0:56:41 steps ahead, you’re going to miss the most beautiful opportunity to actually transform
0:56:44 people’s lives, including your own.
0:56:48 I’m like vigorously shaking my head because I’m like, preach, Jenna, preach, because it’s
0:56:50 so true.
0:56:52 Businesses don’t happen overnight.
0:56:56 And also they don’t need some big master plan.
0:57:00 Every single business stream that I’ve started was some idea I had at midnight and like started
0:57:05 creating a PowerPoint and then I started selling, like it just, it evolves, right?
0:57:08 So I feel like a lot of people think that they need to get from zero to 100.
0:57:12 And it’s like, no, there’s one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, like there’s so many
0:57:16 different steps along the way and that’s how you learn and build confidence and become
0:57:19 an expert and all those things that we were talking about.
0:57:23 So let’s talk about some of the common mistakes entrepreneurs make.
0:57:26 This one ties in really well with what we’re talking about.
0:57:29 What’s wrong with wanting all this success to happen so fast?
0:57:32 A lot of people just want things to happen too fast.
0:57:36 I will say that the common mistakes are that you want to have it all figured out before
0:57:38 you start showing up.
0:57:41 And I think you have to start showing up while you figure it out because a lot of times we’ll
0:57:45 finally have something that we want to launch and we don’t have no one to launch it to.
0:57:47 They didn’t know we were passionate about this thing.
0:57:49 They didn’t know we were working on that project.
0:57:53 And so all of a sudden we do this grand reveal and there’s no one there.
0:57:55 It’s not if you build it, they will come.
0:57:57 They will come as you build it.
0:58:00 And so I think that’s the number one mistake people are making is they’re just waiting
0:58:03 and saying, “Okay, when it’s finally ready, people are going to be there.”
0:58:08 But it’s like if you let them in on the process and the production of it, then they will be
0:58:11 bought in before you ever have something to sell.
0:58:13 Yeah, document your life.
0:58:19 So I know that something else that you talk about in terms of being an entrepreneur is
0:58:21 the need to take breaks.
0:58:25 And when you were eluding to this earlier in the conversation where you were talking
0:58:29 about as an entrepreneur with many different revenue streams, you’ve got all these revenue
0:58:35 streams because sometimes you might want to turn things off and take a break and focus
0:58:37 on your family, focus on your personal life.
0:58:39 So a couple of questions around this.
0:58:44 First of all, talk to us about the importance of breaks and resting as an entrepreneur.
0:58:50 And then also, what about the entrepreneur who’s like, “I suck, I just want to quit.”
0:58:53 I often say, “Rest, don’t quit.”
0:58:55 I believe it’s a quote from Banksy.
0:59:00 And I love that because I think so many of us are ready to quit when really we just need
0:59:03 a nap or a break or time away from the project.
0:59:06 And so I think we’re too quick to quit.
0:59:10 And for me, I feel like rest has become something that I’ve had to learn.
0:59:14 Like my autopilot is to go hard and go after it.
0:59:15 And rest felt hard.
0:59:20 It is harder for me to be intentional with rest than it is to go full steam ahead.
0:59:22 And I think for a lot of achievers, that’s the thing.
0:59:27 And I recognize that just like you would do a couch to 5K program where you’re training
0:59:31 each day to take a few more steps, we need to go.
0:59:34 We’re running the 5K every single day and we need to learn how to sit on the couch.
0:59:40 And so I have to have so much intention behind resting that it now has become natural.
0:59:42 But at the beginning, it was so uncomfortable.
0:59:43 I didn’t want to be alone with my thoughts.
0:59:44 I didn’t want to slow down.
0:59:48 I had this belief that like if the momentum slowed down, everyone would realize this
0:59:52 was all a fluke and it would all fall apart and no one would want or need me anymore.
0:59:55 And now I recognize I create the momentum.
1:00:00 I put my foot on the gas pedal, but I can also know where the break is and vice versa.
1:00:04 And so I think that for a lot of times, we get so caught up in the hustle and I think
1:00:07 the hustle is required to get the business off the ground.
1:00:12 But if hustle is the only way the business will succeed, it is not sustainable.
1:00:17 And so how do we kind of draw lines in the sand where we say, and now I can rest.
1:00:18 Well done.
1:00:19 Now it’s time to take a break.
1:00:24 Now it’s time to step away because I’ve actually found that in those seasons of rest and slow
1:00:29 down where I really do treat time as my currency, those are when the next best ideas happen
1:00:33 or the next creative endeavor comes to me or the next passion reveals itself.
1:00:36 And so I think rest is just as important as hard work.
1:00:41 And I think that it’s up to us to discern when is that needed and how am I going to
1:00:44 learn how to do it?
1:00:49 My last question to you as we wind down this interview, I know that you’re a big proponent
1:00:52 of self-love and body acceptance.
1:00:56 And you have a big theme in your book about the way that we feel in our own skin.
1:01:01 Can you elaborate on why it’s important to actually have self-love be accepting of our
1:01:05 bodies because you say there’s so many times where we’ve missed out on opportunities and
1:01:09 disqualifying ourselves because of how we feel about our bodies.
1:01:10 Yeah.
1:01:15 It’s crazy to me that more people don’t talk about body love and acceptance when I think
1:01:20 about how many thoughts a day we have that involve our bodies.
1:01:24 And I have recognized over the last decade, I have been in many different shapes and forms
1:01:30 and weights and sizes and every step of the way, the way that I feel about my body impacts
1:01:35 how I show up, how I put myself out there, what I believe I’m worthy of.
1:01:38 And what is so interesting to me, there’s a line in the book that says the way we show
1:01:43 up for battle is directly linked to the type of warrior that we believe we are.
1:01:48 And I think for so many of us, women especially, but men too, so many of our thoughts are occupied
1:01:50 with what do I look like right now?
1:01:52 Not how do I feel?
1:01:56 And so I think it’s a really powerful thing to talk about because as we talk about chasing
1:02:00 dreams and starting businesses and growing your audience and showing yourself and letting
1:02:04 people into the messy middle, the way that we feel about ourselves impacts the way that
1:02:06 we do that.
1:02:10 And so when we can start to really bring a level of awareness of what stories am I telling
1:02:11 myself?
1:02:12 What am I believing about myself?
1:02:15 How is that impacting the way that I’m showing up?
1:02:17 It can change absolutely everything.
1:02:21 And so I definitely think it needs to be a part of the conversation because it impacts
1:02:22 our confidence.
1:02:25 And as we’ve said, confidence impacts everything.
1:02:31 And so I love talking about how we feel in our own skin and how we talk to ourselves
1:02:37 about ourselves and how that changes things for us in terms of how we show up successfully
1:02:38 in life.
1:02:42 Well, Jenna, thank you so much for helping us get back in touch with who we really are.
1:02:43 Yeah, fam.
1:02:45 I definitely want to say go cop Jenna’s book.
1:02:46 How are you really?
1:02:49 It’s a path to coming home to yourself.
1:02:52 She gave so many tips today, but it’s just a sliver of what is covered in her book.
1:02:53 We really didn’t get through it all.
1:02:58 So Jenna, the last two things I ask all my guests is what is one actionable thing you
1:03:02 think our young and profitable should do today to become more profitable tomorrow?
1:03:06 I would say do an inventory, whether it’s of your life or your business and see what
1:03:10 is actually moving the needle for you the most, whether it’s through profits or joy.
1:03:14 And I think both of those can tie together beautifully.
1:03:15 And what is your secret to profiting in life?
1:03:18 And this goes beyond just finances.
1:03:23 Building different avenues of revenue that can run while I rest.
1:03:26 And where can our listeners learn more about you and follow you?
1:03:28 I would love to invite you to the party.
1:03:32 I am on all the platforms at Jenna Kutcher, just like Ashton.
1:03:36 And I would absolutely love for you to come on over to my podcast, the Gold Digger Podcast.
1:03:37 Tune in.
1:03:38 We drop two episodes a week.
1:03:41 It is the number one marketing podcast for a reason.
1:03:46 And I love sharing tips, tricks, and strategies both for business and for life.
1:03:47 Amazing Jenna.
1:03:48 I’m going to stick all that in the show notes.
1:03:51 Thank you so much for coming on Young and Profiting Podcast.
1:03:52 Thanks for having me.
1:04:02 [Music]
1:04:04 [Music]
1:04:14 [BLANK_AUDIO]

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0:01:11 I’ve just realized that money isn’t the answer.
0:01:15 Times in my business where I’ve earned the most money, I’ve been the most miserable,
0:01:19 and I just feel like there’s this threshold of like, where do I get more joy?
0:01:20 How do I derive joy?
0:01:21 What does peace look like?
0:01:24 When I go to bed at the end of the night, how do I truly rest?
0:01:29 Jenna Kutcher is the one who decided she did not want to be defined by just one thing.
0:01:35 She has more than one million followers on Instagram and is the host of the top rated
0:01:39 podcast, Goldiger, with more than 70 million downloads and counting.
0:01:42 Peace is so expensive and life is so short.
0:01:47 And I definitely am not anti-hustle culture because I do believe hustle is required to
0:01:49 get the dream off the ground, no matter what the dream is.
0:01:54 But if hustle is the only way that you can operate and sustain what you’re building,
0:01:55 that is not a business.
0:01:57 Like you are building a prison for yourself.
0:02:03 And I’ve watched so many people who have really successful businesses and really lousy lives.
0:02:06 Like they are rich in their bank accounts and empty in relationships.
0:02:25 There’s this quote that I heard that totally changed my mentality and it was.
0:02:27 Hey everyone, welcome to the show.
0:02:30 We’ve got an exciting episode in store for you today.
0:02:35 We are live in an Airbnb location, which is coincidental because we actually talked
0:02:39 about Airbnb in this episode.
0:02:40 Today I’m interviewing Jenna Kutcher.
0:02:42 She’s the host of the Goldiger podcast.
0:02:48 She’s a best selling author and she’s also an entrepreneur of many different businesses.
0:02:52 So we’re going to talk about all the different ways she makes money from her courses to affiliate
0:02:56 marketing, to podcast sponsorships, to hosting a property on Airbnb.
0:02:58 I absolutely love this conversation.
0:03:00 Jenna is one of my close friends and she’s so smart.
0:03:01 She’s so brilliant.
0:03:03 I can’t wait to share it with you all.
0:03:07 So without further ado, here’s my conversation with Jenna Kutcher.
0:03:08 Welcome to Young and Profiting Podcast.
0:03:09 Thank you.
0:03:14 I mean, let’s talk about money, but money is such a taboo topic, especially with women.
0:03:16 And so we’re going to kind of dive off the deep end together.
0:03:17 Yes.
0:03:18 Let’s do it.
0:03:24 So first of all, tell me, what was the first way that you started to make a lot of money?
0:03:27 When did it all start to really come together for you?
0:03:33 So when I was 23, I worked in corporate America and I had a great job.
0:03:37 But I very quickly realized that climbing the corporate ladder was just not for me.
0:03:40 And it is an amazing option for a lot of people.
0:03:42 It just didn’t resonate with my soul.
0:03:46 There was just this feeling of, I’ve got to figure something else out.
0:03:48 So I started as a wedding photographer.
0:03:49 Most people know my story.
0:03:54 I bought a $300 camera on Craigslist, ended up starting a wedding photography business,
0:03:55 bought myself everything.
0:04:00 And within three years I was earning six figures, which at the time was more than I had ever
0:04:02 even dreamed of, right?
0:04:04 In my corporate job, I was making $50,000 a year.
0:04:06 I felt so rich.
0:04:11 Making six figures felt like this amount that was impossible.
0:04:16 And when I was growing my business, I was also experiencing burnout.
0:04:19 And I had grown so quickly, which was such a blessing.
0:04:24 I also just hit this place where I was like, I can’t imagine doing this for the next five,
0:04:25 10, 15, 20 years.
0:04:27 There’s got to be a different way.
0:04:32 And I committed to figuring out a different way through loss.
0:04:37 And I shared this story many times, but when my husband and I finally decided that we wanted
0:04:42 to start a family, it didn’t happen as easily for us as it does for other people.
0:04:46 And I know a lot of people experienced this, but we went through two miscarriages.
0:04:50 And I was planning my pregnancies around my photography business because I was shooting
0:04:53 in the summer and I had to figure out, how is this going to work?
0:04:57 And when I had my second loss, I had to show up and shoot a wedding the next day.
0:05:00 And I was like, there has to be a different way.
0:05:05 Like I built this amazing business, but if I don’t show up and shoot, I don’t get paid.
0:05:06 And there’s got to be a different way.
0:05:12 And so I committed then and there in this moment of agony of, I will figure this out.
0:05:15 And I remember around that time, I heard this statistic.
0:05:17 The average millionaire has seven revenue strings.
0:05:19 And at the time I had one.
0:05:22 And I was like, how do we figure this out?
0:05:23 Like, what could this even look like?
0:05:25 It felt so crazy.
0:05:29 And so I started many different side hustles.
0:05:30 Do you want to dive into that?
0:05:31 Okay.
0:05:35 So my first side hustle was I became a watercolor artist.
0:05:41 So my mother-in-law was an elementary art teacher.
0:05:44 And in the basement of her house, she had all of these art supplies.
0:05:49 And in my season of burnout, I was like, I need to do something to connect back to my creativity.
0:05:52 At first, my photography was my creativity.
0:05:53 And then it became my job.
0:05:56 So I went home with all these watercolor supplies.
0:05:57 I started painting every day.
0:06:01 I forced myself to sit in a chair and paint for 20 minutes a day.
0:06:03 And I started sharing these paintings on the internet.
0:06:04 And people were like, can I buy that?
0:06:06 Amazing.
0:06:12 I ended up figuring out a way to scan these watercolor art prints and sell them online.
0:06:17 And pretty soon we were paying our mortgage with the print revenue.
0:06:19 Your first sort of passive income revenue stream.
0:06:20 Totally.
0:06:25 Because that was what made me realize I could create something once and sell it a bunch of times.
0:06:29 So it started as a joke and it turned into something where I was like,
0:06:31 wait a minute, we’re onto something.
0:06:36 Also around that time was when I had realized after hitting six figures that I was happier
0:06:37 when I was working less.
0:06:39 And I had hit this point.
0:06:42 And I think a lot of entrepreneurs hit this point where in the beginning,
0:06:44 you have to trade time for money.
0:06:45 There’s really no other way around it.
0:06:47 That is the hustle that is required.
0:06:49 But at some point when you start to get the money,
0:06:52 you recognize that I will spend money to get back my time.
0:06:56 And I had hit that point in my photography business and I was like, you know what,
0:06:59 I will go back to earning $50,000 a year if I can have a life.
0:07:03 And so I committed to booking half of the weddings that I had been shooting.
0:07:05 And I said, I’m going to figure something also.
0:07:08 And so that’s when I started learning about online courses.
0:07:11 And I had scaled a business from zero to 100K in three years.
0:07:14 I knew something that a lot of people didn’t.
0:07:17 And so I started mentoring other local photographers,
0:07:20 having them come into this little condo we lived in.
0:07:23 And I would walk them through pricing, marketing, social media,
0:07:25 like all the business stuff.
0:07:28 Because I’m like, these people are so good at their craft.
0:07:29 They don’t know how to sell it.
0:07:30 Yeah.
0:07:32 And so I started coaching.
0:07:34 And then I started looking into online courses.
0:07:37 And that’s where the business that people see today started to form.
0:07:39 But it was years in the making.
0:07:40 I love that.
0:07:41 It’s so inspiring.
0:07:44 So in terms of your courses,
0:07:48 how did you first figure out how to go from one to one to one to many?
0:07:49 Because that’s really the secret.
0:07:54 It’s how do you take what you do to individuals and then make it possible
0:07:56 that many people can take this course?
0:07:58 Like, how did you first start to figure that world out?
0:08:02 You know, it’s kind of funny because I don’t know if I’ve ever drawn the parallel
0:08:06 of making a watercolor print, scanning it, figuring out one to one or once many.
0:08:09 And that is exactly what online education is.
0:08:13 And it was so funny because I ended up coaching five local photographers.
0:08:16 And they all had the same questions.
0:08:19 And all of a sudden, I found myself, I’m like, I am a broken record.
0:08:20 I’m teaching them the same things.
0:08:22 I’m showing them the same pricing guide.
0:08:24 I’m walking through the same things.
0:08:28 And that was when I really started to discern there are trends
0:08:30 and questions that everybody has.
0:08:33 And that is the type of content you want to put into an online course.
0:08:38 And I am so grateful that I took the time to sit down with people face to face,
0:08:42 hear their struggles, understand, well, what am I actually doing different?
0:08:45 Because I think that so often we are so close to our own genius
0:08:47 that we think everybody knows this.
0:08:49 Surely this is easy for everybody.
0:08:52 And so when I started to identify these trends, I was like, oh my gosh,
0:08:55 I can teach branding and I can teach social media
0:08:58 and I can teach pricing and I can teach email communication
0:08:59 and all of these things.
0:09:03 And so I created my first online course after taking an online course.
0:09:06 So I was like, I am going to buy an online course and figure out,
0:09:08 OK, how did they deliver it?
0:09:09 How was it recorded?
0:09:11 How was it like spread out over the week?
0:09:12 Yes!
0:09:14 My secret sauce is like reverse engineering.
0:09:17 I see an end result as a wedding photographer.
0:09:19 I would see the finished shot and I would think,
0:09:21 well, how did the photographer pose these people this way?
0:09:23 What were the cues that they gave them?
0:09:24 What was the lighting?
0:09:27 And I reverse engineered course creation because I was like,
0:09:28 I can figure this out.
0:09:29 I know I can.
0:09:31 The people that can take apart a car
0:09:34 and figure out how to put it back together, I can’t do that.
0:09:37 But when it comes to digital stuff, I am so good at that.
0:09:42 And so online courses cracked my life open in such a beautiful way.
0:09:42 But it did.
0:09:45 It allowed me to reach people outside of where we lived
0:09:47 in this tiny village in Wisconsin.
0:09:51 And it allowed me to connect with other photographers
0:09:52 who were struggling with the same thing
0:09:55 so that they could really focus on the art and their craft.
0:09:55 Yeah.
0:10:00 So I really resonate with this because I started my first course a year ago.
0:10:01 Yeah.
0:10:06 And at the time, I didn’t really realize that I had a course under my belt.
0:10:10 I have a social media agency and it’s very expensive to work with us.
0:10:12 You’re actually one of my social clients.
0:10:15 And so it’s like $10,000 a month minimum to work with us.
0:10:17 And I’d have lots of people coming to me being like,
0:10:20 I really want your help, but I can’t afford your services.
0:10:22 I really want your help, but I can’t afford your services.
0:10:25 And then I realized that this agency that I’m building,
0:10:28 in order to get more clients, every time I get three more clients,
0:10:30 I have to hire five more people.
0:10:33 And I don’t want to have like a 3,000 person organization.
0:10:34 That’s a lot of stress on me.
0:10:35 Yeah.
0:10:38 So I was like, what can I do to sort of lay it all out
0:10:41 and the same trainings that I give my team,
0:10:43 the same checklists I give them,
0:10:46 how can I take what I give my team to service my clients
0:10:48 and then turn it into a class?
0:10:48 Yes.
0:10:49 And then I did that.
0:10:51 And I just used everything that we already had.
0:10:54 So the course was very fast to put together,
0:10:56 because I think a lot of people don’t realize
0:10:59 that if you have an agency, you probably have a course.
0:11:02 Because whatever you’re doing, you can package it up
0:11:05 and teach other people how to do what you do to service your clients.
0:11:08 And I feel like a lot of people don’t realize that.
0:11:10 The other thing with courses is that it just gives you
0:11:14 so much content to then create an audience and attract an audience.
0:11:17 So for example, I have like a two-day masterclass on LinkedIn.
0:11:22 And my team literally just goes to the slides that I created
0:11:24 and then creates posts, you know what I mean?
0:11:27 Because they have all the content, I’ve written it all down.
0:11:31 So I’d love to understand how did you end up becoming an influencer?
0:11:35 Because you’ve got like a million plus followers on Instagram,
0:11:37 you’re huge on Pinterest too.
0:11:39 How did that piece come about?
0:11:42 Was the podcast the first thing that kicked that all off?
0:11:46 It all grew super organically until it didn’t.
0:11:49 When I was a wedding photographer, I realized really quickly
0:11:52 that there were a million wedding photographers in my area
0:11:53 that were really talented.
0:11:56 And the only thing that made me different was me.
0:11:59 Because we were all delivering a very similar finished product.
0:12:03 And so even in the early days, and I mean, this is like,
0:12:05 oh gee, Instagram, we’re talking here.
0:12:08 Like when we used to use those weird Valencia filters,
0:12:10 I would just share my life.
0:12:13 And I would just share who I was and what I was struggling with.
0:12:15 I would share working from home with no makeup on.
0:12:18 Like this is the reality of it.
0:12:20 And it was so interesting because
0:12:21 when I first became a wedding photographer,
0:12:22 I just hid behind my work.
0:12:24 It was like the safe spot.
0:12:27 I figured surely everyone only wants to see my work.
0:12:29 And I remember years and years and years ago,
0:12:32 polling my audience of like, what are your favorite posts?
0:12:33 And it was all personal.
0:12:35 And I was like, what is this?
0:12:38 Fast forward a few years, we went to Hawaii,
0:12:39 and I wanted to do an experiment.
0:12:41 And I love experimenting.
0:12:43 I am like a huge experimenter.
0:12:46 And so I said, for 30 days, I’m going to only post me.
0:12:49 And this is at a time when I’d been hiding behind my work for years.
0:12:53 And my engagement skyrocketed.
0:12:56 My confidence in myself grew.
0:12:58 My connection to my audience grew.
0:13:01 And I was like so fascinated by it because I was like,
0:13:04 this seems like the least interesting thing of what I’m doing.
0:13:06 I was just sharing my life.
0:13:09 And it really made me realize people need to connect with people.
0:13:12 And I never set out to be an influencer.
0:13:16 I really wanted to just continue to grow and share.
0:13:19 And I really have realized over the last few years,
0:13:24 my dream is to help women build businesses they don’t hate
0:13:25 and build lives that they love.
0:13:29 And I have been taking people on this journey,
0:13:33 not as I have figured this all out, but like, I am still learning.
0:13:34 I am still growing.
0:13:35 I’m still figuring this out.
0:13:38 And so when I started doing social media collaborations
0:13:41 and social media promotions and different things like that,
0:13:43 it just felt so natural because I am the kind of person
0:13:46 where I’m like, oh my God, have you tried this new lip gloss?
0:13:49 Or like this skin cleanser is life changing.
0:13:52 Like when I go on a girls date with my girlfriends,
0:13:55 by the end of the day, I’ve dropped 10 links of things
0:13:57 that I’m just telling them about because I’m like,
0:13:59 if this works for me, this could work for you.
0:14:01 Like I just love not gatekeeping,
0:14:04 whether it’s business or beauty products or whatever that is.
0:14:08 And so that was just such an interesting facet for me to realize
0:14:09 people care about the business.
0:14:12 Yes, but they also care about what’s happening behind the business
0:14:14 and like what’s fueling it.
0:14:15 And so that was interesting.
0:14:16 We did have a viral moment.
0:14:18 So I grew very organically.
0:14:20 I felt like I knew every single follower.
0:14:22 Like I just, it felt that way.
0:14:23 And we had a moment go viral.
0:14:26 And it was a photo of me and my husband on the beach in Hawaii.
0:14:29 And I was talking about body image.
0:14:33 It was the funniest post because I just, I never expected to go viral.
0:14:35 I think that’s what happens with viral posts.
0:14:38 And I was clapping back at someone who had said,
0:14:40 how can a woman like you get a man like him?
0:14:42 And my husband is very fit.
0:14:43 He’s very in shape.
0:14:44 At the time I was curvier.
0:14:48 I had been going through miscarriages and lost my body had been through so much.
0:14:49 And I was just angry.
0:14:51 And I was like, who are you to say this?
0:14:53 We have been together for a decade.
0:14:56 He has loved me through every pound, every pimple, like everything.
0:15:00 And that post blew up and overnight we got hundreds of thousands of followers.
0:15:02 And blessing and a curse, right?
0:15:05 Double-edged sword because, wow, this is amazing.
0:15:08 But also like, who are these people and why are they here?
0:15:08 Yeah.
0:15:09 And what are they watching for?
0:15:11 That’s when I first found out about you.
0:15:16 Because I was starting to podcast and I was growing popularity in podcasts.
0:15:18 And then I remember hearing about Jenna Kutcher.
0:15:24 And your likeliness was so tied up with body image.
0:15:28 And so like you were the body image girl that was spreading body positivity.
0:15:30 And that’s what you were known for.
0:15:33 Was that hard to sort of get out of that box?
0:15:34 Because now you’re out of that box.
0:15:34 Yeah.
0:15:40 Well, it was so confusing because I had talked about body image for years.
0:15:43 I think it’s a lifelong journey to learn how to love yourself.
0:15:45 And I don’t think it ever ends.
0:15:49 And so the fact that one random post goes off.
0:15:53 And then here I am running a business, teaching entrepreneurs.
0:15:57 And now all these people are following commenting about my body,
0:16:01 wanting more of that content that I’m not monetizing because I didn’t want to monetize it.
0:16:02 Yeah.
0:16:04 It was very confusing.
0:16:06 And again, it was such a blessing and a curse.
0:16:09 Because so many people resonated with the message and it connected with them.
0:16:12 And they felt seen and they felt understood.
0:16:16 And at the same point too, as a creator, it’s like, what do I do with this?
0:16:19 And as a business owner, where do we go from here?
0:16:21 Like I’m not going to sell a course about body image.
0:16:24 And so it was a really interesting time.
0:16:28 And I think that I just did my best to like stay very true to myself.
0:16:30 Stay very grounded in the message to be clear of like,
0:16:32 here’s what you can expect if you stick around here.
0:16:35 Because this isn’t going to become this type of account.
0:16:37 And so, yeah, it was very interesting.
0:16:40 Let’s hold that thought and take a quick break with our sponsors.
0:16:43 Hey, yeah, ma’am.
0:16:47 Launching my LinkedIn secrets masterclass was one of the best things I’ve ever done for my business.
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0:16:58 I needed chat capabilities in case anybody had questions.
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0:20:01 Yeah, fam.
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0:21:37 I want to dig into the course thing
0:21:41 and how it lended itself so nicely to you doing affiliates.
0:21:42 Yeah.
0:21:44 Because something that a lot of entrepreneurs don’t realize
0:21:48 is that once you figure out how to promote something well,
0:21:49 you can then just take that
0:21:51 and replicate it in a million different ways.
0:21:52 Yes.
0:21:53 And I was even talking about this.
0:21:55 Yesterday, me and Jenna were at the IAB Upfronts.
0:21:59 We were both very integrated into this big podcasting event
0:22:00 for advertisers.
0:22:02 And I was telling the advertisers,
0:22:05 “Yeah, media, my network, we’re all business owners.”
0:22:09 And so we understand how to promote our own products and services.
0:22:11 And then we turn that into podcast sponsorships.
0:22:12 Yes.
0:22:14 So that’s what I’ve been doing.
0:22:16 You’ve been doing that with affiliate marketing.
0:22:18 So I’d love for you to walk through
0:22:21 how do you actually promote your courses?
0:22:23 And then what is the relationship to that?
0:22:25 And then how you started affiliate marketing.
0:22:27 Yeah, oh my gosh, I love affiliate marketing.
0:22:29 I know, I don’t do any of that.
0:22:31 Oh my gosh, people.
0:22:35 Okay, so we do seven figures in affiliate marketing each year
0:22:37 over seven figures.
0:22:40 If people are wondering, are you getting pennies to the dollar?
0:22:42 Like, this can be a very lucrative thing,
0:22:45 especially if you don’t have a ton of offers
0:22:46 that you are selling on your own.
0:22:48 Affiliate marketing is literally just recommending
0:22:51 someone else’s product and getting a commission when people buy it.
0:22:54 And so if you have gotten people’s trust
0:22:57 in what you are recommending with anything
0:22:59 and they do trust you,
0:23:01 they will follow you wherever you lead them to
0:23:03 in a beautiful way, right?
0:23:07 I love affiliate marketing, whether it is skincare,
0:23:10 whether it is jeans, whether it is another online course,
0:23:12 I just think it’s so powerful.
0:23:14 And the reason why I love it
0:23:17 is because I am not an expert in everything.
0:23:20 Very clearly, I’m not an expert in all the things.
0:23:24 And I want to recommend things and people that I love
0:23:25 to the people that I love.
0:23:26 Yeah.
0:23:27 I am a natural connector.
0:23:30 My greatest joy in life is connecting people that I love
0:23:33 to each other, connecting people to products that they love.
0:23:35 So one of the things that I’ve realized
0:23:36 is I can sell my own stuff.
0:23:38 That’s wonderful.
0:23:40 But what does it look like when I partner up
0:23:42 with brands that I love and with people that I love
0:23:44 and help promote their business?
0:23:47 We recently partnered with one of my dear friends
0:23:49 who I’ve literally known for almost a decade
0:23:52 and she’s my copywriter and she has an amazing course.
0:23:55 And I was like, “Ashlyn, let me talk about your course.
0:23:57 Your work has changed my life
0:23:59 and so many people could benefit from this.”
0:24:01 And I am not a pro copywriter.
0:24:03 And it transformed her business.
0:24:04 It changed her launch.
0:24:05 It made her show up differently.
0:24:07 My audience was like there.
0:24:09 We had thousands of people sign up for Masterclass.
0:24:11 And so it’s like so fun for me
0:24:14 because I get to support the people and brands that I love.
0:24:16 I get a commission from what I’m selling
0:24:19 and I get to kind of experiment
0:24:20 with different marketing strategies
0:24:22 because there’s less skin in the game
0:24:23 and I get to be more creative of like,
0:24:25 what does this look like?
0:24:26 But go into the nitty gritty.
0:24:27 Like what are you doing?
0:24:30 I know you’re using many chat automations.
0:24:32 Are you leveraging an email list?
0:24:34 And not like just tell me like, what are you doing?
0:24:35 Okay, you want me to give you the wavelength.
0:24:38 Okay, so if somebody’s listening to this
0:24:39 and you have a podcast,
0:24:41 a very natural way to do this
0:24:43 is to have a podcast interview
0:24:44 and to be able to tie it to somebody’s offer.
0:24:46 That’s what we did when we did my LinkedIn course.
0:24:47 Yes.
0:24:49 And so just naturally integrating
0:24:51 what that person is an expert in
0:24:53 and inviting people with a call to action
0:24:54 at the end of the podcast.
0:24:56 If you have an email list sending out emails
0:24:58 about, “Hey, this person that I trust,
0:25:00 this is my experience with them.
0:25:02 This is how they’ve transformed things for me.
0:25:04 This is why you should trust them
0:25:05 or join their free master class.”
0:25:08 If you have Instagram, sharing about it on Instagram.
0:25:11 So we basically built this almost like flywheel
0:25:13 where we could have a guest on our podcast.
0:25:15 We could send out a couple emails.
0:25:16 I could do an Instagram live with them
0:25:18 and a few Instagram posts.
0:25:19 And that’s honestly it.
0:25:20 And they take care of the rest.
0:25:22 And it’s people that I trust
0:25:24 that are going to serve my audience
0:25:25 well at the highest level.
0:25:26 Yeah.
0:25:28 And then if it’s the right offer for them,
0:25:29 they’ll take it.
0:25:32 So now you’ve got millions of followers.
0:25:36 Take us back to when you didn’t have millions of followers.
0:25:37 It wasn’t that long ago.
0:25:40 How would you promote something then?
0:25:42 Maybe you’ve got a couple thousand followers,
0:25:44 but you’re really smart.
0:25:46 You already make money doing something really well.
0:25:48 Maybe you have a job and you do something really well.
0:25:50 Maybe you have a company and you do something well.
0:25:51 But you just don’t have a lot of followers.
0:25:53 How would you then either sell courses
0:25:54 or affiliate marketing?
0:25:55 Yeah.
0:25:57 I would say two channels.
0:25:58 Pinterest is huge.
0:25:59 And I love Pinterest.
0:26:00 That’s a juicy one.
0:26:01 No one talks about this.
0:26:04 Y’all, Pinterest is a search engine.
0:26:06 It’s not social media.
0:26:08 And it’s so crazy to me that people think
0:26:11 that it is just a place to like plan your dream life
0:26:13 but not do anything about it.
0:26:14 When people go on to Pinterest,
0:26:18 they are typing in recipes with sausage,
0:26:20 makeup looks for work,
0:26:22 or capsule wardrobes for vacation.
0:26:25 Like people are typing in keywords.
0:26:28 And they’re typing in stuff that you have created
0:26:29 or work that you could create.
0:26:29 Yeah.
0:26:33 And so we get millions of views on Pinterest a month
0:26:35 just using like the same strategies
0:26:37 you would use for search engine optimization.
0:26:38 Just using keywords.
0:26:40 That’s so smart because nobody’s doing that.
0:26:42 Nobody’s doing it.
0:26:44 Especially if we’re targeting women.
0:26:44 Yes.
0:26:46 And the cool thing about that is
0:26:48 with Pinterest being a search engine,
0:26:49 it’s not a popularity contest.
0:26:51 So unlike other social platforms,
0:26:52 in order to get your work seen,
0:26:54 you have to have a massive following
0:26:56 because it is a search engine.
0:26:59 If you are search engine oriented,
0:27:00 you will be found.
0:27:00 Yeah.
0:27:02 And so if you are someone listening to this
0:27:03 and you’re like great for you,
0:27:06 I don’t have a million followers or I don’t have this.
0:27:08 Pinterest is an amazing place.
0:27:10 We use Pinterest to grow our email list.
0:27:13 I look at marketing very distilled down.
0:27:14 There are two focuses.
0:27:16 The first primary focus is growing your email list.
0:27:17 Why?
0:27:18 It is an asset that you own.
0:27:20 It is something you can control.
0:27:21 Social media is amazing.
0:27:23 It is rented space.
0:27:23 You do not own it.
0:27:24 You can’t control it.
0:27:26 You are battling multiple algorithms.
0:27:28 Your email list is a true asset.
0:27:29 If you are somebody listening
0:27:31 and you want to be in business three years from now,
0:27:33 five years from now, 10 years from now,
0:27:34 you have to have an email list.
0:27:36 That is the only way.
0:27:38 Priority number one in marketing is an email list.
0:27:41 Priority number two is any other platform
0:27:42 that you are using,
0:27:46 whether it is LinkedIn, YouTube, a podcast, Instagram,
0:27:49 all of those efforts need to be getting people
0:27:52 off of those platforms and onto your email list.
0:27:53 That is it.
0:27:55 It is so funny because we overcomplicate marketing
0:27:57 and we are like, Instagram does not work.
0:27:59 How are you using Instagram?
0:28:00 Are you serving or are you selling?
0:28:03 If you are selling, no wonder it does not work.
0:28:07 Your primary focus as a creator is to start your email list
0:28:09 and then any efforts that you have,
0:28:11 the goal should be to get people off
0:28:12 of whatever platform they are on
0:28:14 and onto your list because, again, you own that.
0:28:18 You get them off of the platform by serving them
0:28:20 and then retargeting them in the DM
0:28:22 to get them in your email list.
0:28:23 One of the biggest regrets I have
0:28:25 is not starting my email list
0:28:28 until just a couple of years ago I started it.
0:28:30 And my favorite way, I do not know if you do this,
0:28:32 to get emails is to do webinars.
0:28:33 Yes, yes.
0:28:35 So I do these private Zoom webinars
0:28:38 where I will do LinkedIn training, sales trainings.
0:28:41 I am doing a mental health one for entrepreneurs
0:28:42 later this summer.
0:28:45 And then I will get 1,000, 2,000 people registering.
0:28:47 Boom, I got 2,000 emails now.
0:28:50 And they opted in so I can communicate with them now.
0:28:53 And there’s so much clicks and conversions
0:28:54 that happen in email.
0:28:56 It’s a lot of sales that are happening on email.
0:28:57 So I love that.
0:28:59 Okay, so we talked about a number
0:29:00 of your revenue streams already.
0:29:03 We talked about your watercoloring business
0:29:05 when you first started out.
0:29:06 We talked about courses.
0:29:09 We talked a little bit about podcasts
0:29:11 and your different sponsorships and affiliate marketing.
0:29:12 What other revenue streams do you have?
0:29:15 So one thing that we are super passionate about
0:29:16 is real estate.
0:29:18 And I love real estate.
0:29:20 I love property.
0:29:22 I love looking at houses online.
0:29:25 Like there’s something about making a space a home
0:29:30 and sharing it even that just feels so powerful to me.
0:29:34 And years and years ago, Drew and I used to spend
0:29:37 multiple months of the year in Maui.
0:29:40 And it was after I had had this revelation of like,
0:29:43 I can build a business that can run while I rest.
0:29:45 Like what would it look like if we spent a month on Maui?
0:29:47 And then it turned into two and three
0:29:48 and we started to fall in love.
0:29:51 But we were also spending a lot of money staying there.
0:29:53 And we would stay in Airbnb’s each time
0:29:56 and we started to like ask ourselves questions.
0:29:57 Okay, we’re spending a lot of money here.
0:29:59 Like what would this look like?
0:30:03 Could there be a possibility that we could do this ourselves?
0:30:04 And I’ll never forget a trip.
0:30:06 My parents came to visit us and there was an open house.
0:30:08 We were walking down the beach and we’re like,
0:30:09 I don’t know, let’s just pop in and look.
0:30:13 And I started to really dream bigger.
0:30:15 And at the time of business was not at all the size
0:30:16 that it is today.
0:30:19 And I remember we went through this open house.
0:30:22 I took the little flyer and I went and sat in a coffee shop
0:30:24 and I started doing math and I started thinking about,
0:30:26 okay, how much are we spending a month when we’re here?
0:30:28 How much rent could we potentially earn?
0:30:29 What would the expenses be?
0:30:31 What are the HOAs?
0:30:31 What does this look like?
0:30:35 And one thing that’s super interesting about Hawaii
0:30:36 is there’s a lot of different zoning.
0:30:39 So there’s apartment zone and there’s hotel zone.
0:30:42 And the place that we were looking at used to be a hotel.
0:30:44 It literally is zoned as a hotel.
0:30:45 And I remember just thinking,
0:30:48 this is so peculiar that this was an operating hotel
0:30:51 and they have now created it into spaces that people could own.
0:30:55 And I sat down in this coffee shop and started running the numbers
0:30:57 and I’m like, I think we could make this work.
0:30:59 And I remember telling Drew,
0:31:01 I am committed to eating ramen noodles for a year
0:31:05 if we do this because we just loved being on the island
0:31:06 and we loved having this space.
0:31:09 And the thought of doing it was just so exciting.
0:31:11 And so we ended up putting in an offer.
0:31:14 I will never forget, we flew back to the island.
0:31:16 So we got this place and I’ve been owned
0:31:18 by this sweet, sweet old couple for years.
0:31:22 And we had one week to like flip the unit
0:31:23 and get it ready for Airbnb.
0:31:27 And I literally thought we’re going to get divorced that week
0:31:31 because we were like painting and getting the couch
0:31:32 and the couch was too big.
0:31:33 It couldn’t fit through the door.
0:31:35 And all these like silly things that we were like,
0:31:37 what did we get ourselves into?
0:31:40 And it’s ended up being one of like the biggest blessings.
0:31:44 We have hosted hundreds of couples over the years.
0:31:47 We have had so many repeat guests come back to our space
0:31:51 and we have been able to create a community with our guests
0:31:54 with the team that helps us take care of our property.
0:31:55 It’s been so beautiful.
0:31:58 We’ve also been able to give back so much to the community.
0:32:00 Like we bought a place on the island
0:32:02 because we care about the island.
0:32:04 And so last year alone,
0:32:08 we donated over 30% of our profits to locals and to support them.
0:32:11 We were able to help people in need
0:32:13 when the devastating fire went through Lahaina.
0:32:14 We opened up our doors.
0:32:17 We housed locals for over two months in our unit.
0:32:19 And we just took care of people.
0:32:22 We used our network of other Airbnb hosts.
0:32:23 And we said like, open your doors.
0:32:26 We will pay all of your expenses, just get people in.
0:32:30 And so it was amazing to see like, yes, it is a property.
0:32:34 And yes, it is this place where people can rent and stay.
0:32:36 But we’re also doing something a lot bigger with it.
0:32:38 And that matters to me.
0:32:40 Anything that I do has to have meaning.
0:32:41 Yeah.
0:32:46 And I care so deeply about the why behind our work
0:32:49 that like I want to make sure that there is always facets
0:32:53 of respect and community built into everything that we do.
0:32:55 And so it’s been beautiful.
0:32:58 My parents were just down there and stayed.
0:33:00 And to be able to like see our space be shared
0:33:02 and loved by people we love,
0:33:04 but also taken care of by people we love
0:33:06 and enjoyed by people we love.
0:33:09 It just feels like this trifecta of blessings upon blessings.
0:33:12 And I love property.
0:33:15 And I love the idea of putting together a space
0:33:17 where people are making lifelong memories.
0:33:19 Because when we went to Hawaii, it was like a bucket list trip.
0:33:23 It was like someday in our lifetime, I want to go to Hawaii.
0:33:26 And the fact that like now we get to host people
0:33:28 on their bucket list trips, how cool is that?
0:33:29 I love that.
0:33:31 I could see like the joy exuding from you.
0:33:35 Like it makes you so happy to host these people in your home
0:33:36 and make your home beautiful.
0:33:38 And something that people don’t realize
0:33:41 is that you don’t necessarily need an investment property
0:33:42 to do this.
0:33:44 You could do this in your own home now.
0:33:46 You can host a room in your house.
0:33:49 Yeah, that is something that is coming up a lot lately.
0:33:49 Yeah.
0:33:52 And it’s an amazing way for people to like supplement
0:33:55 their mortgages or to like help pay their rent.
0:33:57 And Drew and I experienced this years ago.
0:34:00 And I feel like these people were ahead of the curve on this.
0:34:02 But we went on an anniversary trip
0:34:04 and we were driving along the coast of California.
0:34:08 And we rented a room in this bed and breakfast type house.
0:34:09 But they owned a farm.
0:34:11 And I was like, I want to see the alpaca.
0:34:12 I want to check out the goats.
0:34:14 I want to collect the eggs from the chickens.
0:34:17 And it was a whole different life than what we were living.
0:34:19 And I remember we like showed up and they greeted us at the door
0:34:23 and they had a bottle of wine chilled, charcuterie boards out.
0:34:24 And like we sat and talked to them.
0:34:27 And we got to know about their life of living on this farm
0:34:29 and why they were doing it.
0:34:32 And it was such a cool experience where it opened my eyes up.
0:34:34 I was like, yeah, it doesn’t have to be a whole house.
0:34:36 You don’t have to buy a condo.
0:34:38 Like you can literally do this wherever you are
0:34:40 and start to share your space in such a meaningful way.
0:34:44 We’ll be right back after a quick break from our sponsors.
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0:36:27 Young Improviders, I spent years slaving away
0:36:30 in so many different jobs trying to prove myself,
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0:36:35 and trying to build productive teams.
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0:38:04 Young game profitors,
0:38:06 when I started my podcast, I had a volunteer team.
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0:38:14 But as we scaled as a company,
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0:39:37 So something else that’s really popular now
0:39:38 is working remotely.
0:39:41 So many people can work from anywhere now.
0:39:46 And so I imagine that if you explore it and it’s possible,
0:39:50 you can just put your apartment or house on Airbnb
0:39:52 and then go work remotely to some place that you’ve never been.
0:39:56 It’s such a win-win solution because it would offset any costs
0:39:59 of you going and working from somewhere else.
0:39:59 Yeah.
0:40:01 Right through the movie, “The Holiday.”
0:40:02 Did you ever see that movie?
0:40:02 No.
0:40:03 Oh my gosh.
0:40:05 They house swap.
0:40:07 So one person goes to LA and one person goes to–
0:40:07 I did house them.
0:40:08 Yes.
0:40:10 And they trade houses.
0:40:12 And I’m like, that is so genius.
0:40:13 Because it is true.
0:40:15 A lot of people these days have a lot more freedom
0:40:17 and flexibility to work wherever.
0:40:22 I know during the pandemic, we moved up to our lake house
0:40:23 in Minnesota.
0:40:25 And our neighbors there have spaces
0:40:27 that they rent on Airbnb.
0:40:29 And during the pandemic, we would go on walks with them
0:40:29 every day.
0:40:32 And they had this huge dream of living in Hawaii.
0:40:33 That’s where they had met initially.
0:40:34 They wanted to live in Hawaii.
0:40:38 They were able to rent out their spaces in Minnesota.
0:40:39 And now they live in Hawaii.
0:40:40 Amazing.
0:40:42 And it’s like crazy because you just see
0:40:44 that there’s so much possibility there.
0:40:47 And a little bit of creativity, which I think entrepreneurs
0:40:48 naturally have.
0:40:49 And so it’s like, maybe this is something
0:40:51 that you haven’t even considered.
0:40:53 But what would it look like if you explored it?
0:40:57 So I am curious about starting an Airbnb.
0:41:00 And one of my fantasies is I’m not married yet.
0:41:03 I was in a long-term relationship begging
0:41:06 him to do Airbnb with me, to host an Airbnb.
0:41:09 Because to me, I feel like it’s such a fun project
0:41:10 to do with a partner.
0:41:13 Like it just seems like the perfect business project
0:41:15 to work on with somebody that you love,
0:41:17 because it’s relatively easy.
0:41:21 It’s an investment that both of you guys will be a part of.
0:41:24 There’s enough things for both people to do.
0:41:26 And to me, it just seems like such an awesome thing
0:41:27 to do with your partner.
0:41:29 So can you talk to us about doing this with your husband
0:41:30 and what that is like?
0:41:31 Yeah.
0:41:32 I got a shout out my husband, Drew,
0:41:35 because he does most of our work with the Airbnbs.
0:41:36 And he loves it.
0:41:39 Like he is our real estate professional in our family.
0:41:41 He really enjoys it.
0:41:43 And so he does the majority of it.
0:41:46 And it is so fun, because I love the decor.
0:41:47 I love the messages.
0:41:50 I love making sure our guests feel cared for.
0:41:51 I love the recommendations.
0:41:54 Like all things we’ve talked about in this episode.
0:41:57 And he is very good at like the financial side
0:42:00 and the organization and managing our cleaner
0:42:02 and just like different things like that,
0:42:05 where he has more of the boots on the ground mentality.
0:42:07 And I’m more of, here’s the experience.
0:42:09 I’m going to paint this picture.
0:42:10 And so it is so fun.
0:42:12 And we always want to pick places
0:42:14 that we love and enjoy ourselves.
0:42:17 And so it’s, we love this and you will love this too,
0:42:18 which is a theme.
0:42:19 Have you noticed?
0:42:20 I love telling people about business.
0:42:22 I love telling people about the products I love.
0:42:24 I love just sharing experiences with people.
0:42:26 And so it was such a natural progression.
0:42:28 And for us to do it together,
0:42:31 it was our first big investment as a couple.
0:42:33 We really had to have conversations.
0:42:34 Can we do this?
0:42:35 Well, we do this.
0:42:36 What does this look like?
0:42:38 And it felt like a huge leap of faith.
0:42:40 And it’s just been one that has been this like beautiful journey
0:42:41 for the both of us.
0:42:43 And I feel like it connects you guys closer
0:42:46 because you guys are in business together.
0:42:48 You’re making money together.
0:42:49 I just feel like that’s such an awesome thing
0:42:50 to do with your partner.
0:42:51 So I love that you do that.
0:42:53 So something else to know about Jenna
0:42:56 is that she only does stuff that brings her joy.
0:42:58 You only do things that you want to do.
0:43:00 I bring Jenna opportunities all the time.
0:43:04 She’s in my podcast network where I booked sponsorships for her.
0:43:05 And she’ll be like, I don’t want to do that.
0:43:06 I’m burnt down.
0:43:07 I’m burnt down on IG reels.
0:43:09 And I’m like, but it’s thousands of dollars.
0:43:10 Are you sure?
0:43:12 And she’s like, yeah, I don’t care.
0:43:12 I’m burnt out.
0:43:13 I’m not doing that.
0:43:14 Yeah.
0:43:16 You can book it in two months or whatever.
0:43:17 So talk to me about that.
0:43:20 How are you able to sort of just put your foot down?
0:43:24 A lot of people couldn’t just turn down money like that.
0:43:26 First off, it is such a privilege to be in a position to do this.
0:43:27 Yeah, it wasn’t always like that.
0:43:28 No.
0:43:30 You’ve got to sacrifice.
0:43:32 But I’ve realized, and here’s what I’ve really realized,
0:43:35 is if you have listened to this whole episode,
0:43:37 you recognize the power of trust.
0:43:39 And I want my community to trust me.
0:43:41 And if something isn’t in alignment,
0:43:44 not only do I feel it, but they feel it.
0:43:47 And so I have had to get so good at discerning,
0:43:48 what are the right partners?
0:43:49 What are the right opportunities?
0:43:52 What are the right sponsorships to take on?
0:43:53 Is this in alignment?
0:43:55 And I feel that way with every opportunity,
0:43:58 whether it is getting asked to speak on stages
0:44:00 that I would have once dreamt of being on,
0:44:02 but now I’m saying no to,
0:44:04 or whether it is hosting a mastermind or all these things.
0:44:06 I could do a million things.
0:44:07 I don’t want to.
0:44:10 And I think that I’m just at this place in my life
0:44:14 where I just recognize peace needs to be protected.
0:44:17 And right now in this stage of my life,
0:44:19 my priority is my family.
0:44:23 And anything that I’m saying yes to is a no to them.
0:44:25 And what is the most important thing to me?
0:44:27 And so turning down things like recording
0:44:29 another social media reel, to me it’s like,
0:44:31 but this is more time with my kids,
0:44:33 or this is protecting and preserving
0:44:35 the integrity of my followers.
0:44:38 She’ll even turn down things that are a good fit.
0:44:39 Totally, totally, I will.
0:44:42 She’ll turn down things that are a great fit for her,
0:44:43 because she’s like, no,
0:44:45 my time with my family is more important.
0:44:49 Yeah, and I think that boundaries protect what’s sacred to you.
0:44:52 And I’ve just had to relearn this lesson
0:44:53 over and over and over again.
0:44:55 Boundaries aren’t bad.
0:44:59 And boundaries keep what I say most important to me,
0:45:01 and they exemplify that.
0:45:03 What I am saying is most important to me
0:45:04 is reflected in my calendar.
0:45:06 It is reflected in my bank account,
0:45:08 is reflected in the way I show up every single day.
0:45:12 And so it’s a muscle that you have to learn to flex,
0:45:13 and it takes time,
0:45:16 because I think that there was a time in my life
0:45:18 where I got paid $50 to take pictures of a cat
0:45:19 and I couldn’t believe it.
0:45:21 Like somebody is paying me to do something.
0:45:23 I love this is amazing.
0:45:24 And what a blessing that is.
0:45:27 And the better that you get out listening to your gut
0:45:29 and discerning like, well, this is a great opportunity,
0:45:31 but is it the right opportunity for me?
0:45:34 It keeps you in alignment so that you are not
0:45:36 passing up things that you should be saying yes to
0:45:37 and that you are not saying yes to things
0:45:39 that you should be saying no to.
0:45:43 And so I feel like I just have a really strong intuition
0:45:44 and a gut game.
0:45:46 And I don’t apologize for saying no any longer,
0:45:49 because my no is literally just a reflection
0:45:52 of what is mattering the most to me right now.
0:45:54 Okay, well, this has been such an awesome conversation
0:45:57 about all the different ways that you generate revenue.
0:45:59 We talked about courses, affiliate marketing.
0:46:03 We talked about you hosting a property on Airbnb.
0:46:04 And also about your mindset.
0:46:07 I love learning about that because I need to have
0:46:08 some more boundaries.
0:46:09 So thank you for sharing that.
0:46:11 And thank you for joining us on Young and Profiting Podcast.
0:46:12 Thanks for having me.
0:46:19 I loved having Jenna on the show.
0:46:21 And this was actually one of the first times
0:46:23 that I met Jenna in person.
0:46:24 The first time I met her in person
0:46:26 was actually the day before this interview.
0:46:30 I had flown out Jenna for a podcast network event,
0:46:32 the IAB UpFriends.
0:46:35 Jenna’s somebody that I looked up to for so long.
0:46:40 She’s just so bubbly, so nice, so genuine.
0:46:41 Like, she’s the real deal.
0:46:45 It’s so obvious why she’s so successful.
0:46:49 And Jenna is the OG female podcaster.
0:46:52 I’ve been looking up to Jenna since I first started podcasting.
0:46:59 And it’s so crazy that now four or five years later, we’re peers.
0:47:00 She’s actually in my network.
0:47:01 We’re business partners.
0:47:06 And it’s just so crazy to think so much can happen in four or five years
0:47:09 if you just put your nose to the ground and work hard.
0:47:13 It’s just a surreal moment for me to be basically talking
0:47:18 to one of my podcast idols in person, being her friend,
0:47:19 talking to her all the time online,
0:47:21 and now being able to meet in person.
0:47:25 And by the way, we recorded this live in an Airbnb
0:47:27 and you can watch it on YouTube.
0:47:31 So if you want to look it up and see what it was like
0:47:34 with us interacting on video, go to my YouTube channel.
0:47:36 Just go on YouTube, look up Young and Profiting.
0:47:37 You’ll find it right there.
0:47:39 It’s really easy to find.
0:47:44 And we are going to be having an in-person interview summer.
0:47:46 I’m going to be doing so much in-person interviews
0:47:48 because it’s so much more engaging.
0:47:50 It’s so much more fun for me.
0:47:54 I feel like it’s better for video and just better for the conversation.
0:47:57 I did the Gary Vee video in person.
0:48:00 So I’m going to be doing a lot more in-person videos.
0:48:01 And I’m just so psyched for that.
0:48:03 And I’m just so psyched about the conversation
0:48:05 that we had with Jenna.
0:48:07 She really broke down all the different ways
0:48:07 that she makes money.
0:48:09 And she didn’t hide anything.
0:48:12 We talked about affiliate marketing, podcast sponsorships.
0:48:15 And one of the things that we talked about was email lists.
0:48:17 And this is something that I want to stress.
0:48:21 If you haven’t started your email list yet, get on it.
0:48:24 Email lists are so powerful.
0:48:27 I’m kicking myself for not starting my email list sooner.
0:48:30 We’ve had an email list now for like two years.
0:48:31 And it’s amazing.
0:48:34 It is helping us with all of our initiatives.
0:48:36 And it’s sort of like a security blanket.
0:48:40 You spend all this time creating content on Instagram
0:48:42 and YouTube and all these platforms.
0:48:44 But you don’t own any of it.
0:48:47 You’ve got to pull those people out into your email list.
0:48:50 So if there’s nothing else that you take from this interview,
0:48:53 it’s go pull your contacts out from social media
0:48:55 and get them on an email list.
0:48:58 The other thing I wanted to call out that was pretty unique
0:48:59 was Pinterest.
0:49:01 We don’t talk about Pinterest a lot,
0:49:02 but it’s still huge.
0:49:04 It’s basically a search engine.
0:49:07 And it’s so big, especially amongst women.
0:49:10 So if you want to be highly searched
0:49:13 and you feel like you can follow an SEO approach
0:49:14 for your business,
0:49:17 then you should try to leverage Pinterest
0:49:18 so you can be found there too.
0:49:23 And finally, I’m so excited that we got to talk about real estate
0:49:25 because that’s something that I really want to get into.
0:49:29 And Jenna gave a lot of pointers on that front.
0:49:31 And I know most of you are listening and didn’t watch it,
0:49:33 but if you could just see the joy on her face
0:49:36 when she started talking about her experiences
0:49:38 hosting through Airbnb,
0:49:41 she really finds joy in doing that.
0:49:45 She loves hosting other people and getting the feedback from them
0:49:48 and making it nice and warm and welcoming.
0:49:52 And I could see how that could be a really fun thing to do.
0:49:54 That’s why I want to start an Airbnb.
0:49:55 I feel like it’d be so much fun.
0:49:58 I feel like I’m so busy already.
0:50:02 I don’t know why I would want to add yet something else on my plate.
0:50:05 But when it’s fun and it brings you joy,
0:50:07 you get the motivation to do it.
0:50:10 So for me, I really want to start an Airbnb.
0:50:14 So I’m just hoping that my significant other is down.
0:50:17 I’m thankful for Jenna schooling us
0:50:19 on all the different ways she makes money.
0:50:22 And I’m also thankful for all of you guys
0:50:27 who listened to this episode of Young and Profiting Podcast.
0:50:30 Now, if you have somebody out there who’s interested
0:50:33 in learning about things like affiliate marketing, podcast sponsorships,
0:50:37 starting a real estate business with Airbnb,
0:50:39 then share this episode.
0:50:42 Share this link passed around spread us by word of mouth.
0:50:47 That’s such a nice thing to do for your Yap Queen,
0:50:50 who just wants to help more people.
0:50:52 I want more people to hear the show.
0:50:56 And I need you guys to spread it, spread it around, spread the love.
0:50:59 And if you did enjoy this show and you learned something,
0:51:02 then please drop us a five star review on Apple Podcasts.
0:51:06 Nothing helps us reach more people than a good review from you all.
0:51:07 Take a couple minutes and do that.
0:51:09 Man, you guys are awesome.
0:51:13 Like I get new reviews every day and they make my day.
0:51:16 I really read them every single day.
0:51:19 If you guys prefer to watch your podcast as videos,
0:51:20 you can find us on YouTube.
0:51:21 Just look up Young and Profiting
0:51:23 and you’ll find all of our episodes on there.
0:51:25 And if you’re looking for me,
0:51:28 you can find me on Instagram @yapwithhalla
0:51:30 or LinkedIn by searching my name.
0:51:31 It’s Hala Taha.
0:51:33 Thank you so much to my incredible production team.
0:51:35 You guys are awesome.
0:51:36 This is your host, Hala Taha,
0:51:53 aka The Podcast Princess, signing off.
0:52:03 [BLANK_AUDIO]