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0:01:10 Mindfulness is learning to talk to yourself.
0:01:14 I think it’s the most masculine and empowering thing you could do because it’s having a positive
0:01:17 internal dialogue and that manifests in great things.
0:01:21 Make trust your default, and you’ll earn more, you’ll be promoted more, and you’ll be happier.
0:01:24 Be soft and fluffy on the outside.
0:01:26 Don’t take any shit on the inside.
0:01:29 Anytime you speak up, you either get what you want or you get what you need.
0:01:32 Why do you think that there’s some positives related to our ego?
0:01:36 There is a healthy side of the ego, and it’s faith in yourself.
0:01:40 You should have some confidence, a little bit of swag, that no one’s out of your league,
0:01:44 that no business objectives out of your reach, that you could do these things.
0:01:47 And the humility side is, no matter what happens, you can handle it.
0:01:52 I’m a sucker for doing the difficult thing consistently because I’ve just seen what happens
0:01:55 when you’re consistent with those things that most people don’t want to do.
0:02:15 Young and Profiters, do you want to be more intentional with your life?
0:02:19 Do you need help with decision making and clarity?
0:02:25 If so, then you might need to start incorporating a mindfulness practice in your life.
0:02:29 Mindfulness is something that people tend to think is for sad people.
0:02:32 Mental health in general, people think is for sad people, but it’s not.
0:02:34 It’s for all people.
0:02:38 If you want clarity, if you want to live your life with purpose, if you want to feel super
0:02:43 fulfilled because you know yourself, you know what you want, then you need mindfulness.
0:02:47 And mindfulness simply is asking yourself really good questions.
0:02:52 Self-Q&A so that you can get clarity, so you can know what you want.
0:02:56 And we’ve got the best person today to talk to us about this mindfulness expert, Kase
0:02:57 Kenney.
0:03:00 Kase is an author, an entrepreneur.
0:03:03 He’s released many different self-guided journals.
0:03:08 He’s also a podcast host of a very popular podcast called New Mindset, Houdis.
0:03:12 And he’s an Instagram influencer famous for his quotes and his thoughts that he puts
0:03:13 on Instagram.
0:03:16 I’ve shared his quotes and thoughts hundreds of times.
0:03:18 I’m sure you guys have also shared them.
0:03:20 You can’t miss him on Instagram.
0:03:21 He’s very, very popular.
0:03:24 Today on the podcast, we’re going to talk about mindfulness.
0:03:28 We’re going to get into his new book, That’s Bold of You.
0:03:32 And we’re going to talk about Kase’s own life, journey, and career because there’s so many
0:03:35 lessons to unpack in that itself.
0:03:36 Let’s get right into it.
0:03:39 Here’s my conversation with Kase Kenney.
0:03:42 Kase, welcome to Young and Profiting Podcast.
0:03:43 Thanks for having me.
0:03:50 I’m really looking forward to this conversation and a lot of my listeners are male millennials.
0:03:54 And I’ve heard in the past that you’ve called yourself a dude bro guy.
0:03:58 And you also said that you share your feelings for a living.
0:04:03 And I know that a lot of guys have trouble sharing their feelings, showing emotion.
0:04:06 And so this first question is for all the boys.
0:04:10 Can you explain to us how mindfulness can still be masculine and why mindfulness is
0:04:12 something that every man should consider?
0:04:13 For sure.
0:04:18 As a millennial man myself, I think I can address that acutely.
0:04:22 Over the years, I’ve referred to myself as a dude bro guy just as a way to round myself
0:04:26 and the brand for people to let them know, really, that I’m just a regular guy.
0:04:27 Truly.
0:04:32 I don’t have a background in psychology or sociology or a training and some kind of
0:04:33 meditation technique or anything like that.
0:04:34 Really, really a regular guy.
0:04:35 Truly.
0:04:38 I like house music, lifting weights, Chipotle.
0:04:40 Those are my hierarchy of needs.
0:04:46 And when it comes to saying I share my feelings for a living, I say that to really break down
0:04:50 what mindfulness is and in the most practical way, because I think a lot of people, men
0:04:52 in particular, we think about mindfulness.
0:04:53 We hear this word.
0:04:55 Personally, I’m 36 in my 20s.
0:04:59 I used to think mindfulness was for other people because I would associate it with things
0:05:05 like energy and vibrations and chakras and abundance and these things that as a man,
0:05:09 a type, a hustle mentality type man was like, well, that can’t be for me.
0:05:10 Like I’m going to go out and get what I want.
0:05:11 I’m not going to manifest.
0:05:13 I’m just going to do the freaking thing.
0:05:16 I’m going to do the difficult things and I’m going to have a great result.
0:05:18 So I used to think that mindfulness was for other people.
0:05:22 It’s really when I came to understand how practical mindfulness is, how it truly is
0:05:27 for everyone, and specifically what it is that I came to really embrace its power and
0:05:31 why I encourage everyone, men, women, it doesn’t matter, but particularly men, to embrace
0:05:32 it.
0:05:36 I’ll even give you an example from something recent I did just to answer your question directly.
0:05:40 Why should men have a mindfulness practice?
0:05:41 Why should men share their feelings for a living?
0:05:47 I recently led a mental health mindfulness guided journaling session for the Raiders,
0:05:54 a group of 200 grown men, huge dudes who hit each other for a living doing these techniques,
0:05:58 feelings sharing techniques in the form of guided journaling.
0:06:02 And I’m not saying this just to create a nice narrative arc here, but they loved it.
0:06:04 They wanted more of it.
0:06:07 And I see it all the time with, I do a lot of work with athletes, but I see it all the
0:06:11 time with men, they love this kind of stuff.
0:06:14 When we break it down into what it really is and stop thinking that it’s this thing
0:06:21 for overly sensitive men, mindfulness, when I approach mindfulness, mindfulness is not
0:06:25 just knowing yourself and being present in how you feel.
0:06:28 That’s certainly a large part of mindfulness, happy to talk about it, but at its core, mindfulness
0:06:31 is learning to talk to yourself.
0:06:32 So we really think about that way.
0:06:33 It’s your internal dialogue.
0:06:36 How do you talk to yourself?
0:06:38 And I think men are all about training their bodies.
0:06:41 They’re all about lifting sports, these things.
0:06:46 A big part of that now in sports culture and masculine culture now is learning to train
0:06:47 your mind.
0:06:50 So I think it’s becoming a much more approachable topic when we break it down and we escape
0:06:57 the thing that sharing your feelings is a sensitive thing for people who are not masculine.
0:07:01 I think it’s the most masculine empowering thing you could do because it’s learning to
0:07:05 talk to yourself, having a positive internal dialogue, and that manifests in great things
0:07:10 and being a man and doing all the things that make a masculine man great, but it starts
0:07:11 there.
0:07:15 So yeah, I would start there as encouraging people to really redefine what they think
0:07:20 about when they think about sharing your feelings and making it much more practical and approachable.
0:07:21 Yeah.
0:07:24 And mindfulness is something that we hear a lot.
0:07:30 And even though I’ve done many podcasts on the topic, it’s still a little bit unclear
0:07:34 in terms of what mindfulness exactly is.
0:07:39 And when I was studying for this podcast, I heard you say that mindfulness is self-Q&A.
0:07:41 And I just thought that was such a good definition.
0:07:43 I’ve never really thought of it like that.
0:07:45 And it’s such a simple way of thinking about mindfulness.
0:07:51 So can you talk to us about why questions and asking yourself questions and asking why
0:07:54 is such an important part of mindfulness?
0:07:57 When I say it’s self-Q&A, I mean that in the most practical way possible.
0:08:02 There’s a reason that I choose journaling, guided journaling as my preferred method of
0:08:04 mindful practice.
0:08:08 There’s so many mindful practices and they’re all great from yoga to meditation, of course,
0:08:12 to therapy, to going on a walk, to doing sound therapy.
0:08:14 These are all great things that are mindful habits.
0:08:18 I think guided journaling is the best mindful habit because it encapsulates what I think
0:08:23 is the crux of mindfulness, which is self-inquiry, putting your feelings on trial.
0:08:25 It’s really asking yourself questions.
0:08:28 And I say that because, you know, a lot of times we think about mindfulness, again to
0:08:32 my point earlier, that mindfulness, mindfulness is being present.
0:08:35 Yes, that’s a big part of it, it’s being present, mind, body, it’s being present in
0:08:38 how you feel, it’s being non-judgmental of how you feel.
0:08:42 But I don’t think that’s quite enough because if you’re into any of the work of, say, Michael
0:08:47 Singer, learning about the subconscious mind and where do our thoughts originate, a lot
0:08:52 of the common understanding is that we don’t initiate a lot of our thoughts, we receive
0:08:54 a lot of our thoughts.
0:09:00 So if we’re only in receiving mode, in retention mode, and we’re not in intention mode, we’re
0:09:01 missing half the battle.
0:09:06 And that’s why when I say Q&A, Q&A is saying I receive these thoughts, maybe they’re mine,
0:09:07 maybe they’re not.
0:09:11 Now it’s time to figure that out with question, answer, question, answer.
0:09:16 And that’s why I say mindfulness isn’t just listening to yourself, it’s the second part,
0:09:18 which is talking to yourself.
0:09:19 And how do you know what to say to yourself?
0:09:22 How do you know what you need to say to yourself when you start asking yourself questions?
0:09:26 So that’s why Q&A, I think, is a really practical way to put it.
0:09:29 Guided journaling is a great way to bring that to life.
0:09:33 And then past journaling, it’s a matter of just living that as a mentality that when
0:09:37 you receive a feeling, you feel it, you receive it, you don’t judge it, but then you start
0:09:39 asking questions of it.
0:09:42 And that’s when you get to the bottom of whether you’re receiving it and initiating it with
0:09:46 or it needs some intention and some examination, but I think Q&A is a good way to describe
0:09:47 it.
0:09:53 Are there any signs or symptoms that you need more mindfulness in your life?
0:09:56 I think everyone needs more mindfulness in their life.
0:09:59 The reason that I started my whole journey into this, I think, is one that is probably
0:10:01 pretty common.
0:10:06 In my 20s, I very, very much identified with my job, which was great.
0:10:08 I worked in advertising technology sales.
0:10:09 It’s one of those hustle, hustle, hustle things.
0:10:10 You can make a lot of money.
0:10:12 You could do really well.
0:10:15 I really liked who I’d become over the course of that.
0:10:17 I started as an account executive at this company, worked my way up to regional vice
0:10:20 president as sales leader.
0:10:21 We close deals.
0:10:22 We take clients out.
0:10:23 We entertain.
0:10:24 We close deals.
0:10:28 Really, I’d become type A, could turn on the charisma, do this thing.
0:10:33 That was me on the outside, but on the inside, I really did not feel like I knew who I was
0:10:35 at all as a man, as a person.
0:10:39 I felt like I was borrowing a lot of definitions of happiness, success, timelines, all these
0:10:40 things.
0:10:44 For me, the catalyst for all this, maybe some people can relate to, is I just felt like
0:10:46 there were so many different versions of me.
0:10:49 There was work case, and dating case, and friend case, all these different things.
0:10:50 I was like, “I don’t like that fact.
0:10:51 I just want to be one person.”
0:10:55 I’m sure you maybe behave different in different settings because of practicality, but I did
0:10:59 not like the fact that I felt like I was borrowing and rushing, and I had all these different
0:11:00 masks that I would put on.
0:11:06 I want to be this one person, and I want to say why I’m this one person, and where that
0:11:07 truth is coming from.
0:11:08 I’m not borrowing it from other people.
0:11:09 That’s why I started the podcast.
0:11:13 I would just hop on the podcast without a guest, and for like 20 minutes, I would just
0:11:16 take a feeling or a question, and I would examine it.
0:11:20 So that, at the end of it, I could say, “Here’s what I believe, and here’s where it came
0:11:24 from,” as opposed to, “I believe this thing, but I don’t really know why, I don’t really
0:11:25 know where it came from.”
0:11:29 I think a lot of people, we’re not bad people, but a lot of people live that way.
0:11:34 We have certain ideals, and timelines, and values even that we just have, but we don’t
0:11:37 know where they came from, or why we believe them.
0:11:40 I think in that instance, we need mindfulness.
0:11:44 We need introspection to say, “I believe this because, and here’s the experiences in my
0:11:45 life that led me to it.”
0:11:51 That is the power of mindfulness, and the matter of identity, and then we all need mindfulness
0:11:56 when it comes to stress, and anxiety, and dating, and all these areas of life where we’re
0:11:59 so quick to jump to conclusions.
0:12:03 Mindfulness is the pause in that that allows us to then initiate some Q&A, and then come
0:12:09 up with, “In my world, I’m really into encouraging optimism,” but to come up with more hopeful
0:12:12 conclusions about life.
0:12:16 Whether it’s your character, who am I, rushing, borrowing, or it’s in the immediate, reacting
0:12:20 to stress, I think we all need an element of mindfulness, certainly.
0:12:25 I have a quote from you that I think kind of relates to this, the fact that mindfulness
0:12:29 is something that you kind of always need, it’s something that never really ends, there’s
0:12:32 always going to be things that come up, and you’re going to need to figure out and think
0:12:33 them through.
0:12:38 You said, “I understand that there’s no right way to live my life, but there is a wrong
0:12:39 way.”
0:12:41 The wrong way is to think that there’s a right way.
0:12:45 To assume there’s a right way would be happy, a right way to have a career, a right way
0:12:48 to be in a relationship, to be successful, to be fulfilled.
0:12:50 Can you help us understand what you mean by this?
0:12:51 Yeah.
0:12:55 Yeah, that’s always the sound bite that I dropped, so you got ahead of it before I would just
0:12:56 say that to you anyway.
0:13:00 The idea is that there are so many areas of life where we think there’s a right way to
0:13:02 do things, and maybe there is a right way.
0:13:06 Maybe there absolutely is a right way to be in a healthy relationship, to start a business,
0:13:07 to be profitable.
0:13:10 Maybe there actually is a textbook right way.
0:13:15 I’ve found so much freedom and truth, although I always think it’s funny when people say,
0:13:16 “What is my truth?”
0:13:21 But there is clarity when it comes to figuring out what works for me.
0:13:26 If we’re always caught in a cycle of trying to emulate other people’s right way or only
0:13:30 doing what our parents told us was the right way or previous generations, we’re stuck in
0:13:32 a cycle that truly doesn’t allow us to breathe.
0:13:36 That sounds more rebellious than it needs to be, but I really think a life truly lived,
0:13:40 a life where you’re saying, “Okay, I’ll be inspired by other people, I’ll look to other
0:13:43 people, but I’m going to figure out what is the right way.”
0:13:46 I think this is just so helpful across the board.
0:13:47 Two examples.
0:13:51 One, my life as an entrepreneur, I joke that I share my feelings for a living, but that’s
0:13:53 kind of a unique profession.
0:13:57 I’m an author, I’m a podcaster, I’m these new age things that are becoming more and
0:14:02 more doable and achievable, but I had a great career before this, and I threw it all the
0:14:05 way to do something that is so out of left field for me.
0:14:08 My brother’s a cardiologist, went to Harvard.
0:14:11 My mom was a lawyer, very traditional career paths.
0:14:17 If I, back in the day, before I started getting into mindfulness and self-introspection, if
0:14:20 I would have said, “Kase, you’re going to quit your job and you’re going to write quotes
0:14:23 on the internet for a living,” I would have said, “That’s a ridiculous thing.”
0:14:25 Of course not, because that’s not the right way, right?
0:14:26 Just practically, I would have said.
0:14:28 So that’s example one.
0:14:32 Example two is I talk a lot about dating, but in dating, I think that one of the quickest
0:14:37 ways to give yourself anxious thoughts that are so unnecessary, even one of the quickest
0:14:42 ways to ruin your relationship is to look at other people’s relationships and say, “Well,
0:14:43 that’s the right way.
0:14:45 Mine doesn’t look exactly like that.
0:14:48 Therefore, mine’s the wrong way,” even though it’s a perfectly healthy relationship, or
0:14:53 you look at the latest hottest influencer and what she or he is saying that they need in
0:14:57 a relationship and you’re like, “Well, I don’t really want that or need that, or my needs
0:14:58 are different.
0:14:59 Maybe there’s something wrong with me.”
0:15:03 We’re so quick to add this anxiety to our life that it’s not necessary because we’ve
0:15:10 defined things by right and wrong, the way, my way, and I think there’s such a form of
0:15:15 both peace and power that comes from deciding what is right for you.
0:15:20 This goes across the board, but it’s basically just not … I hate to be like, “I was like,
0:15:24 don’t just do what you’re told,” but I think there is an element here of introspection that
0:15:28 comes down to the ultimate question for mindfulness, which is why?
0:15:29 Where is that why coming from?
0:15:30 Is it coming from theory?
0:15:33 Is it coming from what you’ve been told, or is it coming from your experience?
0:15:38 Our experience is for, in my line of mindfulness, there’s different kinds of mindfulness.
0:15:40 There’s more spiritual, esoteric mindfulness.
0:15:44 For me, my mindfulness is almost like being a lawyer.
0:15:45 Here’s the evidence.
0:15:46 Here’s the conclusion.
0:15:48 Jerry, what is your verdict?
0:15:49 I’ve lived through this.
0:15:51 I believe this.
0:15:54 Here’s what I’m capable of based on what I believe because of my experiences.
0:15:57 I’ve lived through A. I believe B. And so on and so forth.
0:16:01 And I think that is the power for us to decide what is right for me, might not be right for
0:16:02 other people.
0:16:04 What’s wrong for someone else?
0:16:07 Someone says, “Kasey, you can’t make a living from sharing your feelings online.”
0:16:08 That might be right for me.
0:16:11 And I think there’s just freedom that comes from embracing the bridge between those two.
0:16:17 I’d love to stick on your personal story for a minute here because I think a lot of people
0:16:20 are in the shoes that you once were when you were in corporate.
0:16:22 You’ve got these other desires.
0:16:24 You’ve got an amazing, cushy job.
0:16:26 You’re worried about what’s going to happen.
0:16:30 If you leave that all behind, if you fail, you’ve got the pressure of your family who’s
0:16:34 really successful and had traditional jobs.
0:16:39 So talk to us about how you guided yourself to make the decision to follow your dreams
0:16:42 and to become an entrepreneur and a podcaster.
0:16:43 Yeah.
0:16:44 I think about this a lot.
0:16:45 There’s a couple of elements.
0:16:49 For one, there was a timing element, which I think is the most important element ever.
0:16:50 When do you make that jump?
0:16:52 There’s no right or wrong answer here.
0:16:55 From my experience, I see a lot of people jump too early.
0:17:02 I think having leverage when you leave your day job to move into full time into your entrepreneurial
0:17:05 effort, your creative effort, whatever it is, leverage is the most important thing you
0:17:06 can have.
0:17:10 That is financial leverage, of course, but also decision making leverage.
0:17:15 I did the podcast for almost three years concurrent to my job.
0:17:16 I would run the sales team.
0:17:17 I would travel twice a week.
0:17:18 I was out of Chicago.
0:17:21 I’m in Miami now, but I was out of Chicago and I would go to St. Louis in Kansas City
0:17:24 and I would run the region and I was traveling twice a week.
0:17:29 Then I would produce two episodes a week of the podcast, found a way to make it work.
0:17:32 Somewhere along the way, I started to find a way to make money.
0:17:35 I started to create and sell these guided journals.
0:17:38 I started getting these proof points, “Oh, there is a business model.
0:17:40 It’s not just fanciful thinking.
0:17:44 I’ve got historical data to support that I can make money every month, five grand, ten
0:17:46 grand,” so on and so forth.
0:17:51 I started to create some proof that this was possible and then COVID hit.
0:17:52 It pumped the brakes on all my travels.
0:17:54 I said, “Well, I’ve got some free time here.”
0:17:57 Really started to dive into social, posting more on social.
0:18:01 There was this large and heightened demand on the e-commerce front as well as demand
0:18:02 for wellness products.
0:18:06 I went from selling a couple of journals a day to hundreds a day.
0:18:10 The thing blasted off and it became very apparent that I’m making more money doing this than
0:18:11 my day job.
0:18:15 Here’s a real opportunity, but back to my point about leverage.
0:18:20 If I had jumped too soon, I would have lost all that leverage, specifically in the form
0:18:21 of decision-making leverage.
0:18:26 When you leave too soon and you jump into your effort, and let’s say you’re a creator
0:18:31 or a writer or a podcast host and you rely on maybe advertising or collaborations and
0:18:35 things like that, when you’re not making money, when you don’t have the financial foundation
0:18:39 of a day job, money comes to you, opportunity comes to you, you basically have to take it
0:18:42 to survive and it takes out that decision-making leverage.
0:18:47 I left after having a couple of years’ worth of the data and the support and I could turn
0:18:48 down deals.
0:18:49 I could continue to say, “Here’s the brand.
0:18:52 I’m not just going to take money because I need it.”
0:18:56 I think that was really, really important to me, especially in the wellness space where
0:18:57 I’m not an influencer.
0:19:01 I don’t really do brand deals, but there was some time there where I was like, “Well,
0:19:02 I might need to.
0:19:03 I need the money.
0:19:04 I need to do these things.”
0:19:09 I think having been more patient, leaving the job, allowed me to leave and then continue
0:19:10 saying, “Nope.
0:19:11 This is what case is.
0:19:12 This is what I represent.
0:19:13 I don’t have to do these things.”
0:19:18 I think that was really important to me and at a certain point, just with the timing and
0:19:22 COVID and more time on my hands, I just realized if I poured more energy into this, I could
0:19:23 do it.
0:19:28 I had years’ worth of data before to really put some fire on that.
0:19:32 Let’s hold that thought and take a quick break with our sponsors.
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0:24:22 We have a lot of similarities in our own stories.
0:24:31 So for example, I had a blog, a very popular entertainment news blog in 2012, 13, 14.
0:24:34 I also started my podcast in 2018.
0:24:40 I also quit my corporate job over COVID to start my social agency and now podcast network.
0:24:41 So you took a different route.
0:24:46 You did more of like the authoring and the journaling and really focused on becoming
0:24:48 a huge Instagram star.
0:24:51 I really focused on building a company as well as my podcast.
0:24:56 So we kind of take a different route, but I’d love to understand, even though you had
0:25:02 this traditional job, you were still doing what I call opportunity set Bs, right?
0:25:05 So opportunity set A is what you get paid for at your job.
0:25:09 Opportunity set B is just anything else you can learn outside of your job.
0:25:14 For example, you starting a blog because that was your own thing.
0:25:15 You created that blog, right?
0:25:18 And that was while you were working your corporate job.
0:25:24 So talk to us about how that experience lent itself for you to even have confidence to
0:25:28 become a podcaster and do your own thing because I think it’s probably all tied together.
0:25:29 Yeah.
0:25:30 Oh, I like that a lot.
0:25:31 I think about that a lot too.
0:25:34 I’ve got a lot of empathy for people who are like, I don’t know, investment bankers
0:25:38 during the day, but rappers at night where there’s not a whole lot of oversight, not
0:25:42 a lot of transfer of skills, although maybe there is that I’m not thinking about.
0:25:47 But for me, I started a blog called Pursuit in 2014.
0:25:53 I go way back with trying things on the side, but I’m super grateful that I was in advertising
0:25:59 and sales specifically and creative expression on the side.
0:26:03 The confidence I got from my day job, walking into a meeting, having to entertain people,
0:26:08 having to find a reason to strike up a conversation with people, having confidence in speaking
0:26:13 and leading and empathy and working with a team so transferable immediately to this.
0:26:18 Nowadays, I do a lot of public speaking and workshops with sports teams and corporate
0:26:19 groups.
0:26:23 I used to really be an introvert and I used to be really averse to public speaking truly.
0:26:25 And now I love it.
0:26:28 And it’s not because I’ve been doing a lot more now.
0:26:32 It was because of the eight years I ran a sales team and had to grow into that.
0:26:34 So those skills were so transferable.
0:26:38 And then also I would say there’s something about working in sales in particular about,
0:26:42 again, I was an introvert, started as an account executive, I was like, “Oh, little me.
0:26:43 I’m going to sell a deal.”
0:26:46 And by the end of it, I was like, “Yeah, I’m going to sell a deal.
0:26:47 Give me a bigger goal.
0:26:48 Let’s do this.
0:26:49 I want more commission.”
0:26:54 I grew so much confidence in my ability to go from a book of business of zero to selling
0:26:57 in to Fortune 500 companies.
0:26:59 I could go from zero to nothing.
0:27:04 And I think that really gave me the confidence on this side to say, “I can go from having
0:27:08 no social presence to having a bit large social presence or having no books to having a book
0:27:10 deal and a best seller and these kinds of things.”
0:27:15 So I think those skills were very transferable and really helped me.
0:27:19 And I think it was right time, right place for sure for a lot of that.
0:27:23 And I’m very grateful for a lot of the perspective I learned along the way.
0:27:28 And I think I’m a very impatient person, truthfully, if I had to wait for an elevator or someone’s
0:27:30 walking slow on the sidewalk, it really irks me.
0:27:35 But I think there was something that I’m really grateful for where my intuition was saying,
0:27:37 “Just be patient when it comes to the right time.”
0:27:41 So that when I did do that jump, I had that confidence in place.
0:27:44 And I think that’s guided me even three years later in the right direction.
0:27:48 I think the other thing is your consistency, the fact that when you were in a corporate
0:27:53 job, you were saying even while traveling and having this full-time job, you were doing
0:27:55 two episodes a week.
0:28:00 Talk to us about your ability to be consistent and how you had the motivation when you first
0:28:01 started.
0:28:04 I know you did get quite a bit of downloads when you first started, but what kept you
0:28:08 going before you were the super popular podcaster?
0:28:10 First off is what I referenced earlier.
0:28:12 I started the podcast for myself.
0:28:16 Someone messaged me the other day and they said, “Kase, can you give me some advice to
0:28:18 be a successful podcaster?”
0:28:21 And I wrote back and I said, “Don’t try to be a successful podcaster.
0:28:24 Get a mission and use a podcast to amplify the mission.
0:28:29 That’s the only way in social, in podcasting, in writing, you can’t just want to be an author
0:28:31 or be a content creator.
0:28:36 You have to have a fire for a thing and then you use the platform to amplify it.”
0:28:38 For me, I never wanted to be a podcaster.
0:28:40 I wanted to know myself better, truthfully.
0:28:43 I know that sounds a little noble and like a nice little soundbite.
0:28:46 That was the only reason I started the podcast.
0:28:50 Alongside of wanting to be creative, I’ve always been creative and I love writing and
0:28:55 expressing myself, but I truly started the podcast because I was frustrated with myself.
0:28:58 And that’s always kept me going 630 episodes later.
0:29:00 You can’t help but grow.
0:29:03 You talk about the 10,000 hour rule, whether that’s real or not.
0:29:07 I’ve done so much more than that and I’ve grown and reinvented myself so many times
0:29:11 and I have so much clarity into myself that I can’t help but grow every single time I
0:29:12 sit down and do the podcast.
0:29:14 So I’ve always been motivated to do it twice a week.
0:29:18 And to your point, I was traveling twice a week.
0:29:21 I would be doing the podcast in the back of an Uber.
0:29:22 I would be writing it.
0:29:24 I would be getting to the hotel late and recording it.
0:29:28 I’d bring my mic with me on the road.
0:29:33 It was difficult, but I think it was a combination of what I just described, that internal drive.
0:29:34 And then also, I got lucky.
0:29:39 I remember my first month, I got 56,000 downloads, which at our size were privileged to have
0:29:40 large podcasts.
0:29:43 Now, that’s not a lot, but it’s not insignificant.
0:29:47 And for a first one month podcast, that’s actually quite a bit.
0:29:48 And I owe that to a couple of different things.
0:29:49 Good timing.
0:29:52 I had an email list at the time and it helped grow some of that.
0:29:53 But I saw that.
0:29:57 I was like, “Wow, if I could do that in one month, what could I do in a year?”
0:30:01 And I was like, “I’m not going to stop until I have at least 50 episodes under my belt.”
0:30:07 And just committing to that 50 by the end of the 50, I was well beyond 50,000 downloads
0:30:08 a month.
0:30:10 And I was like, “Wow, let’s just keep going.”
0:30:15 And by that time, the podcast had become a routine as simple as breathing.
0:30:19 I know that sounds more poetic than it needs to be to describe releasing a podcast.
0:30:22 But for me, it’s like, I do it twice a week.
0:30:26 Every Sunday and every Wednesday, I sit down and I write and I record and I release just
0:30:27 what I do.
0:30:29 It’s not, “Oh gosh, I’ve got to come up with content.
0:30:31 What is my content strategy?”
0:30:34 It’s like, “No, I’m just going to do the thing because that’s what I do on Sundays.
0:30:36 That’s what I do on Wednesdays.”
0:30:37 So for me, it’s become that simple.
0:30:41 It’s a lifestyle at this point and it works for me.
0:30:46 It’s all those things combined and creating evidence for yourself of why you should continue.
0:30:51 Get out of theory, get out of writing down your goals and just starting the thing, putting
0:30:55 it on paper, seeing what people say, using that to inspire you, listen to your followers,
0:30:56 all those things.
0:31:00 But yeah, for me, it always did start though with why I started it in the first place.
0:31:01 I love that.
0:31:07 I also love that you took sort of a self journaling approach and you really just kept your podcast
0:31:08 yourself.
0:31:09 So many people go the interview route.
0:31:14 That’s the route that I ended up going with for majority of my episodes.
0:31:18 And when I look back, because I started my podcast in 2018 as well and similar to you,
0:31:19 I had a corporate job.
0:31:26 I’m so proud of Young Hala for doing episodes every week, even when nobody was listening.
0:31:32 And to your point, my why was bigger than just wanting to be a popular podcast.
0:31:36 I literally just wanted to help people and had a lot of fun.
0:31:41 I had a volunteer team helping me with my podcast and even just building something with
0:31:43 somebody else was something that I was enjoying.
0:31:45 It wasn’t like a selfish thing.
0:31:47 So I always give that advice too.
0:31:51 You’ve got to want it and want to help people and want to improve your own life.
0:31:56 And it shouldn’t just be this goal of making money or becoming some huge podcaster.
0:31:57 Yeah.
0:31:58 Yeah, agreed.
0:31:59 We’re very similar.
0:32:00 It’s funny how similar we are.
0:32:04 I bet if you were to look at podcasters who have been doing it for more than five years,
0:32:09 we’d probably find the commonality that we share that the mission was first and the channel,
0:32:11 the means was second.
0:32:15 I bet we would find that common because I think there’s a stat that I see passed around
0:32:20 a lot, you know, 99% of podcasts released less than 10 episodes or something like people
0:32:21 give up so fast.
0:32:22 Yeah.
0:32:23 Yeah.
0:32:24 It’s a crazy number.
0:32:28 And it’s probably because of a couple of things here, the mission, the lack of maybe
0:32:31 immediate results, all these things that derail people.
0:32:32 Totally.
0:32:33 Okay.
0:32:35 Let’s move on to your latest book.
0:32:36 You released it last year.
0:32:38 It’s called That’s Bold of You.
0:32:42 So similar to mindfulness, you can interpret it in many different ways.
0:32:45 So what does being bold mean to you?
0:32:47 I’m an author and I read on Instagram.
0:32:51 My whole day is about words, word choice, 12, 14 word, little short little senses.
0:32:53 So I live in words.
0:32:59 And on that note, you know, over the years, I’ve really leaned into trying to break down
0:33:04 the identities that we give ourselves, specifically the words that we use to describe ourselves.
0:33:07 Those are other words that other people have called us.
0:33:11 You’re too much, you’re too needy, you’re too intense, you’re too quiet, you’re too loud
0:33:15 across the board, these things, and that we’ve internalized and say, well, maybe I am.
0:33:20 And the way that we let perception, right, the way that we let feedback, the way that
0:33:25 we let our parents, the way we let the internet basically create our identities for us unless
0:33:26 we push back.
0:33:27 So I think it’s a bold thing.
0:33:31 That’s why I call it That’s Bold of You to allow yourself to push back against these
0:33:34 identities and decide that, well, maybe they are true.
0:33:38 Maybe you are too intense, but maybe that is a good thing for X, Y, Z reasons.
0:33:43 So basically, it’s a mindful examination of who you are and why you are that way.
0:33:48 And the reason I wrote the book was I’m all in on vulnerability, not like sappy vulnerability,
0:33:52 not like feelings, time vulnerability, but just being radically honest about how you
0:33:53 feel.
0:33:54 So we don’t have to beat around the bush.
0:33:55 We don’t have to guess.
0:33:58 We don’t have to play mental gymnastics, none of that, whether it’s in dating or business
0:34:00 or friends or just with yourself.
0:34:07 We say how we feel and we act upon how we feel and we’re clear and we’re healthy about it.
0:34:08 Vulnerability.
0:34:09 Right?
0:34:10 Vulnerability.
0:34:12 I read this study that really kicked off the book called the beautiful mess effect, which
0:34:16 was basically these social scientists and these researchers were looking at the fact
0:34:19 that we applaud certain qualities in other people.
0:34:22 We like weird, wild, eccentric people.
0:34:23 We like honest people.
0:34:25 We like that friend who’s like, “Oh, he’s so real.
0:34:26 He’s got no filter.
0:34:27 We love that.”
0:34:28 In general, right?
0:34:29 Not on the extreme.
0:34:33 So in general, we like people who are real, a little out there quirky, a little too loud,
0:34:34 a little too this.
0:34:38 We like that and other people, but for some reason, when we think about ourselves being
0:34:42 that same way, we pass so much unfair judgment upon ourselves and we say, “Well, I can’t
0:34:47 be that way because people won’t appreciate that quality in me, even though we said we
0:34:48 like that quality in other people.”
0:34:52 So the beautiful mess effect was basically saying, “Why do we applaud the beautiful mess
0:34:54 in other people, but in ourselves, we detest it?”
0:34:58 And they ran all these participants through these studies to basically show that across
0:35:01 the board, there’s a bit of hypocrisy there.
0:35:04 It was one instance where they took these two groups of people.
0:35:08 They had one group and said, “Hey, you’re about to go into this room and there’s going
0:35:10 to be a group of people in there and you’re going to sing this song to them.
0:35:12 You’ve never sang this song before.
0:35:13 It’s going to be awkward.
0:35:15 You’re going to go in there and sing it.
0:35:16 Get ready.”
0:35:17 The other group, they said, “Hey, by the way, these people are going to come in and sing
0:35:18 a song to you.”
0:35:21 And right before they did it, they asked each group, “Hey, how do you think this is going
0:35:23 to be received?”
0:35:25 The group that was told that they’re about to sing, they were like, “Well, this is going
0:35:26 to be horrible.
0:35:27 They’re going to laugh at me.
0:35:28 They’re going to think I’m an idiot.
0:35:29 It’s going to be me.”
0:35:30 So on and so forth.
0:35:31 Very condemning, very judgmental.
0:35:34 To the group that they told, “Hey, you’re about to have these people come sing to you.
0:35:35 What do you think?
0:35:36 How are you going to react?”
0:35:37 They said, “Well, it doesn’t really matter.
0:35:38 I applaud them for doing that.
0:35:39 That’s awkward.
0:35:40 That’s vulnerable.
0:35:41 I applaud that.
0:35:42 I like that.”
0:35:46 So basically showcasing the idea that we’re all in our heads about these vulnerable things.
0:35:51 And then they ran other tests too about asking for help, exposing your body in a vulnerable
0:35:55 way, expressing your feelings first, all these different vulnerable acts.
0:35:59 And across the board, it was always, “They will hate it if I do it.”
0:36:02 But across the board, the judgment was, “This is a great thing.”
0:36:07 And that always really struck me as a glimpse into humanity of a little bit how hypocritical
0:36:12 we are when it comes to judging ourselves for these things that are unfair.
0:36:16 So basically I wrote the book from that perspective, that it’s a bold thing to push back against
0:36:20 our programming, our conditioning, our judgment.
0:36:24 So it’s basically a book about being kinder to yourself, but in an informed way.
0:36:28 And to not be so conforming in life.
0:36:32 I want to dig deeper on being vulnerable.
0:36:38 And I want to talk about dating for a second, because I feel like that with dating is especially
0:36:39 relevant right now.
0:36:44 Because in the online dating world, a lot of people have the impression that they’ve
0:36:50 got to be cold, maybe not make the first move necessarily, especially if they’re a woman
0:36:54 or not show their soft side, because they’re afraid of being hurt, right?
0:36:57 They don’t want to get ghosted, they don’t want bad things to happen.
0:37:02 So can you talk to us about how being vulnerable can actually be something that is attractive
0:37:05 and maybe talk to us about how we should rethink that?
0:37:06 Yeah.
0:37:10 I’ll instead, in the traditional way I do, but I’ll actually add some very, very recent
0:37:11 sauce to that.
0:37:15 I released an episode yesterday, because I read this piece of research in the Harvard
0:37:20 Business Review about why optimism in life literally makes you happier and makes you
0:37:23 more money and it makes you more fulfilled.
0:37:26 I see vulnerability and optimism as two sides of the same coin.
0:37:30 And basically the research showed, and HBR of course is about in the workplace, so it’s
0:37:34 about workplace professionals earning more, being happier and being more fulfilled.
0:37:38 And it basically showed that cynics, people who are cynical, right, cynical in the sense
0:37:43 of everyone’s out to get me, I need to protect myself first, I only match energy, a little
0:37:49 bit of Machiavellian tactics, right, a little bit of manipulation, little doggy dog kind
0:37:50 of world.
0:37:55 It showed that people who believe that about the world, that people are inherently dishonest
0:37:58 and that maybe you should play some games too.
0:38:02 People who believe that the world is competitive and you need to step on some people’s necks
0:38:03 to be successful.
0:38:08 They showed that those people are across the board, they earn less than their optimistic
0:38:12 counterparts, they’re promoted less than their optimistic counterparts, and across
0:38:15 the board they showed less satisfaction in their jobs.
0:38:19 I take that as a microcosm of larger happiness, right, I think there’s definitely a lot to
0:38:24 be said about the workplace versus life, but they showed that to be very true.
0:38:29 And the suggestion of the research was make trust your default and you’ll earn more, you’ll
0:38:31 be promoted more and you’ll be happier.
0:38:35 And there’s a fine line between being trustful and being naive, but it basically said, look
0:38:39 for the best than others, offer your energy first instead of only being the person who
0:38:43 receives and waits to see what they do and then you make your move because everyone’s
0:38:44 got to move.
0:38:49 So instead of all that crap, you just make trust your default and you’d be a kind, hopeful,
0:38:51 optimistic person, which is very much in my ethos.
0:38:55 But I think that is a very relevant way to approach dating.
0:39:00 I think we’ve all gotten into our heads and our hearts in different ways that have made
0:39:03 us so resistant to being open.
0:39:04 And a lot of it’s for a good reason, right?
0:39:09 If we’ve been hurt in the past, maybe multiple times, maybe it happens to us so many times
0:39:13 when we’ve been disappointed so many times, we can’t help but feel that the whole world
0:39:14 is that way.
0:39:18 I would never dismiss that, of course, because our experiences shape our reality.
0:39:23 But a lot of the time, we’re taking little tidbits of our reality, which is real and
0:39:29 valid and hurtful, and we’re adding to it a whole variety of projection to everyone
0:39:30 else.
0:39:33 And that leads to a lot of the things that you described and that I talk a lot about,
0:39:34 right?
0:39:40 We want someone else to make the first move or we don’t trust anyone at first.
0:39:43 We’re resistant to speaking up for our needs, all these things that just back us further
0:39:45 into that cycle.
0:39:51 So there’s not much great advice I can give other than, “Don’t do that,” but perhaps
0:39:55 with a bit of the research and then a little bit of logic.
0:39:57 I do a lot of dating content.
0:40:00 I don’t ever do dating content around tactics or how to get someone.
0:40:02 What do I freaking know?
0:40:06 But I do know when it comes to the idea of vulnerability in dating, you win every time
0:40:07 when you’re vulnerable.
0:40:09 I really, really do believe that.
0:40:12 And most practically, when I say vulnerable, I mean speaking up for yourself, advocating
0:40:13 for yourself.
0:40:17 What I need, asking questions, speaking up to how you feel.
0:40:22 And 99% of the times when I receive feedback or questions from people, all of the things
0:40:26 that they talk about are solvable through communication.
0:40:31 I know it’s a boring topic, but the way that I really break it down about vulnerability
0:40:36 and dating is anytime you speak up, anytime you’re vulnerable, you either get one of two
0:40:37 things.
0:40:39 And both of those things always help you win.
0:40:42 Anytime you speak up, you either get what you want or you get what you need.
0:40:44 Both of those things always, always help you.
0:40:45 You either get what you want.
0:40:48 You speak up and say, “Hey, you said this thing that makes me feel a certain way.
0:40:49 What are your intentions?”
0:40:50 You get what you want.
0:40:51 They say, “Oh, sorry.
0:40:52 That was confusing.
0:40:53 Here’s what I actually mean.”
0:40:54 Turns out you’re on the same page.
0:40:55 Amazing.
0:40:56 You just needed to talk it out.
0:40:59 On the get what you need side, you say, “Hey, that thing you did or this thing I’m noticing
0:41:01 about your behavior, what does it mean?
0:41:02 Let’s talk about this.”
0:41:03 They say, “Oh, yeah.
0:41:04 No, you’re right.
0:41:05 You caught me.
0:41:06 I’m not really into this.
0:41:07 I’ve been messing with you,” whatever.
0:41:08 That hurts.
0:41:11 That’s what you need because now you can move on and you’re not in that holding pattern
0:41:12 anymore.
0:41:15 I know that’s oversimplified and it’s not as easy as just snapping your fingers, having
0:41:19 a conversation, but that is vulnerability in its most practical form.
0:41:24 For me, mindfulness isn’t always this soft butterflies and rainbows thing.
0:41:26 Sometimes it’s mantra, it’s case.
0:41:32 Right now, you’re feeling confused or trapped in this relationship or you’re feeling used
0:41:33 or whatever negative feeling.
0:41:35 Get what you want or get what you need.
0:41:36 Case.
0:41:37 Get what you want.
0:41:38 Get what you need.
0:41:42 Get yourself to have that conversation because you understand what’s on the opposite side
0:41:43 of that.
0:41:45 That’s what I would say a combination of those two things.
0:41:47 Make trust your default.
0:41:49 Be soft and fluffy on the outside.
0:41:51 Don’t take any shit on the inside.
0:41:52 Speak to what you want.
0:41:53 Get what you want.
0:41:54 Get what you need.
0:42:00 I think that’ll really help people get out of this funk where it’s them against the world,
0:42:02 which I think just doesn’t benefit anyone.
0:42:04 I really, really love that framing.
0:42:09 Something else I wanted to pick your brain about is your perspective on how we should
0:42:11 frame our past.
0:42:15 I always say that you need a happy past and you need an exciting future if you want to
0:42:19 live a content life where you’re not anxious and you’re feeling positive.
0:42:22 You need a happy past, an exciting future.
0:42:26 I’d love for you to help us understand how we should think about our past and how we
0:42:28 should treat our past.
0:42:29 Yeah.
0:42:32 Certainly, there’s areas of life that I love to talk about.
0:42:35 I don’t particularly like to talk about past traumas and things like that.
0:42:38 That’s for a serious mental health care professional.
0:42:44 For me, though, I think about my past as the ultimate piece of clarity in my life.
0:42:50 I love to oversimplify things, but you think about why are certain things good because
0:42:51 of the bad things?
0:42:55 What makes a healthy love, unfortunately, unhealthy love?
0:43:00 What makes a communicative understanding patient partner, someone who always rushed you, someone
0:43:03 who never took time to understand you?
0:43:05 The unfortunate reality of life is we need contrast.
0:43:06 We do.
0:43:11 It’s one of those things that in the midst of contrast, you would never say, “I need
0:43:12 this contrast.
0:43:13 This is good.
0:43:14 We need this.
0:43:15 We needed rain today.
0:43:16 It’s been dry out.”
0:43:17 We don’t think like that when it comes to pain.
0:43:20 We are wired to avoid pain.
0:43:23 Most specifically, we are wired to avoid repeated pain.
0:43:26 We will do anything to avoid making the same mistake twice.
0:43:30 Perhaps that’s what leads us to be so closed off to our previous point.
0:43:32 But our pasts are powerful.
0:43:37 Our pasts are the source of contrast, which is the source of clarity in our life.
0:43:42 I talk a lot about standards and boundaries and fear that a lot of people have of being
0:43:43 too picky.
0:43:47 If I had a conversation around that 99% of the time that comes up, “I don’t want to
0:43:48 be too picky.”
0:43:49 Okay.
0:43:51 Well, let’s figure out if you’re being too picky or not.
0:43:53 Let’s figure out if that’s actually a valid thing.
0:43:58 I talk to people and sometimes I break down standards into standards 1.0 and standards
0:43:59 2.0.
0:44:01 2.0 are theoretical standards.
0:44:03 Standards that you’ll borrow from TikTok.
0:44:06 You deserve someone who does this and does that.
0:44:09 Things that are inspired by other people’s examples.
0:44:10 Things that sound good on paper.
0:44:12 Things that your parents told you.
0:44:13 Back to our original conversation.
0:44:17 Just because someone said something’s right for them doesn’t mean it’s right for you.
0:44:18 That’s standard 1.
0:44:19 1.0.
0:44:20 It’s good.
0:44:21 We’re not going to argue with it.
0:44:22 We’re not going to say that’s not true.
0:44:24 Standards 2.0 come from your experiences.
0:44:29 I lived through this past painful experience in my past.
0:44:31 Here is why I believe my standard to be true.
0:44:37 When you have a past that validates your standard, I consider that to be rather unbreakable and
0:44:39 a non-negotiable for yourself.
0:44:43 That’s why in the present, you can look yourself in the mirror and you’re on that line where
0:44:47 you’re being like, “Man, maybe I am being too needy and I’m asking for too much.”
0:44:48 No.
0:44:49 Point to the past.
0:44:53 This is why I have that standard and that’s what makes it powerful.
0:44:56 If we’re not taking advantage of our past in that sense, again, we’re just floating.
0:45:00 We’re just floating with these theoretical things that aren’t backed by why.
0:45:03 It sucks to have painful experiences, of course.
0:45:08 I’ve been through my fair share, loss, breakups across the board, but those are the things
0:45:12 that make clarity in the present possible and that’s what transforms into the type of
0:45:17 relationships you want, the ones you’re willing to fight for, the ones that you’re willing
0:45:20 to walk away from, the times you’re willing to start over.
0:45:25 You need that clarity and if we don’t look at our past as a source of it, we’re basically
0:45:28 throwing away all of this goodness in our life that we have.
0:45:33 I love everything that you said and something else that I want to touch on is ego.
0:45:35 A lot of us think that it’s bad.
0:45:37 We just assume that ego is the enemy.
0:45:41 We need to fight off anything that is related to ego.
0:45:45 Why do you think that there’s some positives related to our ego?
0:45:48 I think in general, ego is the enemy.
0:45:49 Mr. Ryan Holiday is correct.
0:45:56 Boastful, better than thou, ego of course is bad thinking you know everything is bad.
0:46:00 Mindfulness, the practice of mindfulness, the more mindful you are, the more you meditate,
0:46:03 the more you have mindful practice, the more you journal, the more you realize you don’t
0:46:04 know.
0:46:07 It is a very humbling practice and it should be.
0:46:10 Honestly, that’s the best sign you’re on the right track.
0:46:12 You’re more unsure of yourself from time to time.
0:46:14 That is the greatest sign that you’re doing things right.
0:46:18 But I would say along the way, there is a healthy side of the ego and it’s not even ego.
0:46:23 I think I dress it up as ego because it’s easy to understand and we can create the visual
0:46:25 of two sides of the ego.
0:46:27 But all it is is faith.
0:46:32 It’s faith in yourself that you should have some confidence, a little bit of swag, that
0:46:35 no one’s out of your league, that no business objectives out of your reach.
0:46:37 You could do these things.
0:46:41 You could put yourself in a position to at least try and the humility side is no matter
0:46:43 what happens, you can handle it.
0:46:49 I just think in the day and age of social media and comparison and conformity and what-if
0:46:54 isms, we’re so quick to talk ourselves out of things because of all these things that
0:46:55 we’ve been talking about.
0:46:56 I’m to this.
0:46:57 I’m to that.
0:46:58 They’re this.
0:46:59 I’m that.
0:47:03 That we talk ourselves out of trying in the first place and it’s in those instances where
0:47:07 I think we need the healthy side of ego, the catalyst, the spark for just trying.
0:47:11 I’m not reinventing the wheel here with talking about just motivating yourself to try.
0:47:18 I like people who have a little bit of swag and confidence, but it’s balanced wholeheartedly
0:47:19 by humility.
0:47:23 They’re willing to put themselves into situations where they’re cringe, where they’re weird,
0:47:26 where they’re awkward, where they’re vulnerable.
0:47:27 Only good things come from that.
0:47:32 If we only think of ego and confidence as this thing that is a negative, I find a lot
0:47:34 of times we don’t even put ourselves in those positions.
0:47:38 I think it’s a matter of humility, but it’s also a matter of believing that no matter where
0:47:42 you put yourself, you can react to what happens next.
0:47:43 That’s the healthy side of ego.
0:47:48 We’ll be right back after a quick break from our sponsors.
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0:52:13 I was listening to an interview with you and James Altichur a couple of days ago and you
0:52:16 guys were talking about how luck is similar to faith.
0:52:18 How can we make ourselves more lucky?
0:52:22 What are some ways that we can break the rut that we’re in, the routine that we’re in to
0:52:25 try to bring more luck into our lives?
0:52:26 Yeah.
0:52:32 I like the idea of luck as faith and I like the idea of luck and faith and patience being
0:52:33 intertwined.
0:52:37 When you give yourself patience, that is saying I have faith in myself.
0:52:40 When you’re saying I don’t need to rush to do this, I don’t need to conform to someone
0:52:41 else’s timeline.
0:52:43 I just need to keep doing what I’m doing.
0:52:45 That is faith in yourself and that is what creates luck.
0:52:49 There’s a book that I referenced quite a bit that has been passed around a little bit that
0:52:50 talks about luck.
0:52:55 I’m blanking on the author of it, but it’s called Chase Chance and Creativity, the Lucky
0:52:56 Art of Novelty.
0:53:01 It’s basically written by this scientist professor who was talking about the role that luck has
0:53:06 played in some great scientific breakthroughs, specifically luck in the lab, like the invention
0:53:09 of pasteurization and Louis Pasteur and the invention of penicillin.
0:53:14 These were technically mistakes that were made in the lab when they just randomly did things.
0:53:17 Not scientists that don’t know the exacts, but they randomly mixed things together and
0:53:18 something great happened.
0:53:19 It was luck.
0:53:20 It wasn’t part of the plan.
0:53:21 It was luck.
0:53:26 Basically, the scientist looked over the years, over the many decades and centuries of luck
0:53:30 in the lab and he said, “Luck is actually categorizable.
0:53:33 It’s something we could break down and it’s something we can’t control.”
0:53:35 He said, “There’s four kinds of luck.
0:53:40 One luck is the kind of luck that I think we’re also apt to identify by.
0:53:42 For me, I used to think, “Well, I’m an unlucky person.
0:53:43 I’ve never won a lottery.
0:53:47 I always hit red lights, give something back and it tends to happen to me.”
0:53:49 That’s the kind of luck that we need to ignore.
0:53:50 That’s random luck.
0:53:52 We don’t really care about random luck.
0:53:53 We can’t control it.
0:53:54 It is what it is.
0:53:58 But there’s three other kinds of luck that he identified in the lab that I think is very
0:54:00 immediately transferable to life.
0:54:04 The first was luck that comes from experience and association.
0:54:08 Basically, the more you do something, the wiser you get about it, such that in the future,
0:54:10 you make better decisions.
0:54:15 You’re able to quickly form more mental associations of if this, then that, and you just have better
0:54:16 results.
0:54:18 It’s luck that comes from wisdom.
0:54:23 For me, it’s with writing quotes, I’ve written, I don’t know, a thousand on Instagram.
0:54:26 I kind of know what people want.
0:54:28 I know what makes people feel seen.
0:54:30 I posted something yesterday.
0:54:31 Today, it’s got like 90,000 likes.
0:54:32 That’s a lot of likes.
0:54:34 That’s a little bit lucky.
0:54:36 The algorithm lucked me today.
0:54:37 Well, kind of.
0:54:38 It was just a little bit of association.
0:54:40 So that was luck one.
0:54:42 The other luck was luck that comes from motion.
0:54:43 You can’t deny that.
0:54:47 The more you do the luck you get, objects in motion stay in motion, objects in motion
0:54:49 bump into other objects in motion.
0:54:53 The more you do, the more podcasts you released, the more music you released, the more cold
0:54:56 calls you make, literally the luck you would get.
0:55:02 For some reason, we conflate luck with being irregardless of effort, but luck is truly
0:55:03 effort.
0:55:07 And then the last luck that he broke down was luck that comes from uniqueness, originality,
0:55:11 authenticity, just the fact that the more real you are, the lucky you get in the sense
0:55:13 that people can detect that.
0:55:18 Like if you have blue hair, and that’s authentic to you and your expression, it strikes up
0:55:21 a conversation with someone, “Oh, and they’re an editor for Vogue, and you want to be a
0:55:22 fashion model.”
0:55:23 Things like that.
0:55:28 Luck that comes from originality and authenticity, that in very practical ways, whether it’s
0:55:31 a conversation in an elevator or something you post that shines through, it attracts
0:55:33 the right people, and you get lucky.
0:55:35 But it comes from that level of realness.
0:55:41 So yeah, I like thinking about luck in that sense because I used to really victimize myself
0:55:43 as an unlucky person, and of course that’s not true.
0:55:44 And that’s unfair.
0:55:46 Back to the idea of that’s bold of you and vulnerability.
0:55:50 It’s an unfair thing to say I’m an unlucky person.
0:55:55 You could break yourself free of being unlucky by being real, by leaning on your past for
0:55:58 those associations, and then for doing more, of course.
0:56:02 But all those things combine are faith, and they all require patience, so I think it all
0:56:03 fits nicely.
0:56:07 Something that I think ties with this is your advice that you gave that you got from Seinfeld
0:56:09 about doing the opposite.
0:56:11 Can you tell us about that?
0:56:14 Yeah, for being in the mental health space, I talk a lot about Seinfeld.
0:56:16 It might kind of have left fields unless people watch that.
0:56:21 I think there’s a lot of wise ideas in Seinfeld, but yeah, I’ve done a bunch of episodes and
0:56:24 I talked to it in my book about the idea of you’re feeling stuck in a rut.
0:56:25 You’re feeling ambiguous.
0:56:26 You’re feeling trapped.
0:56:30 I think the best thing you could do is just try the opposite of what you’ve been doing,
0:56:34 whether it’s a habit or routine, a mindset, a standard, a boundary, right?
0:56:38 We’re not talking about going back to zero, but just throwing things to the wall and trying
0:56:39 something different.
0:56:44 Because there was an episode in Seinfeld where George, who is Jerry’s kind of short
0:56:49 king friend who is an unlucky person and he’s not conventionally attractive.
0:56:50 He’s not wealthy.
0:56:51 He’s kind of neurotic.
0:56:55 He doesn’t have any luck with women, and so they’re talking, and George is like, “Nothing
0:56:57 ever good happens to me.
0:56:58 I always make the wrong choice.”
0:57:02 And Jerry’s like, “Well, if every choice you’ve ever made to date has been wrong, then what
0:57:04 would happen if you did the opposite of that?”
0:57:08 And then he gets up from his seat at this table, and he walks up to this attractive
0:57:11 woman at the bar, and he goes, “Hi, my name’s George.
0:57:13 I’m unemployed, and I live with my parents.”
0:57:14 And she’s like, “Hello.”
0:57:15 And they hit it off, and they go on a date.
0:57:17 So it’s just a funny example of him.
0:57:21 Instead of trying to fake it and be this Rico Suave guy, he gets up, and he’s just very
0:57:24 honest with her, and it’s the opposite of how he’d normally react.
0:57:26 And I’ve always taken that to heart.
0:57:31 In my early sales days, I had to be the opposite of who I was at the time, called a fake it
0:57:32 to you make it mentality.
0:57:37 I had to get up and be that funny guy and take clients out and do all those things.
0:57:40 But that helped mold me into actually becoming that person.
0:57:45 And in so many areas of life, I used to be a pretty avoidant attachment type when it came
0:57:50 to relationships, and being willing to sit in that space of discomfort, the opposite.
0:57:54 On the entrepreneurial front, again, my parents, my upbringing has always been very traditional,
0:57:56 and you make money in traditional ways.
0:58:00 You max out your 401(k) to do the opposite of those things, really pushed me out of my
0:58:02 comfort zone, but here we are.
0:58:07 So I think a very piece of practical advice is dip your toe in the water of opposites
0:58:09 and see what it brings you.
0:58:10 So good.
0:58:14 So something else that you talk about is being comfortable with embarrassment.
0:58:18 I thought this one was really funny, because I never really thought about that, but you
0:58:23 say you’re even competitive with yourself about being as embarrassing as possible.
0:58:27 You challenge yourself to be embarrassing, so talk to us about that.
0:58:32 It’s less like trying to be embarrassed and more a willingness to be embarrassed.
0:58:36 For me, it’s to this idea of pushing yourself out of your comfort zone, doing opposites.
0:58:41 A way that I’ve done it in the past was to gamify the experience.
0:58:45 Not so overtly, like I’m literally gamifying it, but you think about confidence, right?
0:58:47 Where does confidence come from?
0:58:50 Confidence comes from, without a doubt, evidence, right?
0:58:54 Confidence can be theoretical at a certain point, but in order to make that confidence
0:58:59 real, you need to generate evidence, evidence that you could trip and fall and still be
0:59:02 confident, evidence that you could start and fail and pivot and still do well, right?
0:59:05 That is what creates confidence, it’s a muscle, it’s evidence-based.
0:59:08 So I always thought about it in the sense of, well, how do you create evidence?
0:59:10 You got to get points on the board.
0:59:17 So I used to treat it that anytime I did something awkward or embarrassing or cringe or uncomfortable,
0:59:22 in my head, I would give myself a point, like a ticket at a county fair, and that I would
0:59:24 redeem that for a big stuffed animal, right?
0:59:25 In my head.
0:59:27 It’s the same idea for confidence.
0:59:28 How do you gain confidence?
0:59:33 You cash in those points, and at a certain point, to our conversation about healthy ego,
0:59:36 at a certain point, you’re like, I could put myself in any position, I could be the one
0:59:40 to say a funny joke and have it fall on deaf ears, I could be the one to introduce myself
0:59:44 to someone and they can dismiss me, but I’m still confident.
0:59:48 In that situation, I’m not less of a person, and it comes from that evidence.
0:59:52 So for me, back to our conversation about motivating yourself to get what you want or
0:59:56 get what you need, that amps me up to have a difficult conversation.
0:59:58 It’s the same idea when it comes to confidence.
1:00:03 It amps me up to do something that is potentially awkward or embarrassing or vulnerable because
1:00:05 I know what it gives me.
1:00:07 We’re so focused on what it takes from us, right?
1:00:11 It takes from us our pride and our respect or maybe even a friend.
1:00:16 I’m more focused on what it gives me, which is those things, those exact same things.
1:00:20 And it’s really helped me evolve my thinking there from, I don’t want to be cringed.
1:00:24 That used to be my biggest roadblock, especially when it comes to being a guy who literally
1:00:29 writes potentially cringe things on the internet as, I can’t be cringed.
1:00:30 Why?
1:00:31 Why?
1:00:32 Why is that a fear of mine?
1:00:35 What am I afraid of being judged by people who think being real and open and honest is
1:00:37 a cringey thing?
1:00:39 That’s a cringe thing, that they would judge that.
1:00:44 So I’ve really evolved my thinking there focused on what being awkward and embarrassing gives
1:00:46 you versus what it takes from you.
1:00:47 Okay.
1:00:52 As we close out this interview, I want to start talking more about your career and your
1:00:54 Instagram and things like that.
1:00:59 I know that you now are merging mindfulness with music.
1:01:01 You haven’t been for a little while now.
1:01:05 Talk to us about why you decided to do that and how personally, how has that made you
1:01:07 feel to be able to combine both of these passions?
1:01:12 Do you feel more fulfilled now that you can merge these passions?
1:01:13 Yes.
1:01:14 I love house music.
1:01:18 I’ve always loved house music growing up in Chicago, now I’m in Miami.
1:01:21 Just love dance music, any genre of dance music.
1:01:22 So that’s part one.
1:01:26 Part two would be back to my passion for mindfulness as a subject matter.
1:01:31 I think a lot of my hesitation towards it in my twenties was because I used to think
1:01:37 that vulnerability, mindfulness, mental health, journaling, therapy, those are things for
1:01:38 sad people.
1:01:42 That is something you do when you’re sad and you’re overwhelmed and it is for broken people,
1:01:43 right?
1:01:46 It’s a ridiculous statement, but I think that’s how I used to think and I think a lot
1:01:50 of people think that too now, particularly with the language that we use around mental
1:01:52 health and stigmas and all these things.
1:01:57 There still is this connotation that it’s for sad people and I don’t take a whole lot
1:01:58 very seriously in life.
1:02:02 I think some of my quotes reflect that, but I’ve always wanted to encourage people to
1:02:05 see mindfulness as something that you celebrate.
1:02:08 It is a journey inward to celebrate who you are.
1:02:11 It is something that you do when you’re happy, not just when you’re sad.
1:02:15 Just for both, of course, but I’ve really always been drawn towards the energetic side
1:02:22 of mindfulness, not the sit in silence and meditate, not the sound bath and meditate
1:02:23 kind of guy.
1:02:24 That’s great for some people.
1:02:26 It’s never been great for me.
1:02:30 I always get the most mental breakthroughs when I listen to dance music.
1:02:32 There’s something about the structure of dance music.
1:02:34 For one, break, build, drop, break, build, drop.
1:02:37 It drop, it’s very euphoric, it’s very journey driven.
1:02:41 I’ve never written anything of substance without listening to dance music.
1:02:44 I’ve always had this creative and emotional connection to dance music.
1:02:47 At a certain point a couple of years ago, I was like, “Well, let me bring this into
1:02:49 some of my practices.”
1:02:52 I started working with different DJs and I would have them on the show where they would
1:02:53 play a set.
1:02:57 I would have Martin Garrix on and he would play for 60 minutes.
1:03:00 The great thing about dance music is there’s usually transitions between the songs where
1:03:05 it’s somewhat easy to come in with a vocal or a piece of audio and I would come in and
1:03:11 just kind of do a little of my usual mindfulness, but over 130 BPM banger house tune.
1:03:14 It’s not for everyone, certainly a lot of people don’t really get it.
1:03:19 They would rather do the quiet, calm mindfulness, but I think a lot of people are leaning towards
1:03:22 mindfulness as something that excites you, mindfulness that’s something that you could
1:03:25 do while you’re moving your body.
1:03:29 It’s more of a creative outlet for me than anything I really do with my business.
1:03:33 I live in Miami now and my girlfriend is a DJ here, so it’s part of my life.
1:03:36 I spend a fair amount of time in clubs here, but I don’t really drink.
1:03:42 I just enjoy the ability for music to be a catalyst for vulnerability, whether that’s
1:03:46 in person or in an episode or with a DJ.
1:03:51 I just think there’s such an inherent, powerful connection between music and mindfulness that
1:03:54 I at least have to put it out into the world and I enjoy doing it.
1:03:58 Yeah, and I think a lot of my listeners are going to want to hear some of that.
1:04:01 Where can they hear your mindfulness music?
1:04:03 Yeah, they’re all on the podcast.
1:04:07 If you go to New Mindset, you just on the Spotify or Apple, you just scroll through,
1:04:09 you’ll see the cover arts different for them.
1:04:12 There’s one I did with Martin Garrix, there’s one I did with two friends, a bunch of different
1:04:15 DJs who are a little bit smaller, but they’re great.
1:04:18 If you want to give it a shot, listen to it and see how you feel.
1:04:23 That’s awesome because I’m somebody who has ADHD, so I like doing mindfulness with yoga
1:04:29 and matching it with different things, so I think it’s a really cool thing.
1:04:33 Your Instagram, couple of questions on your Instagram because you’ve managed to build
1:04:39 such an awesome Instagram and nowadays everyone’s saying, “It’s all about Instagram reels, you’ve
1:04:44 got to do your reels,” but you’re having so much success posting quotes and thoughts
1:04:50 and sliders and I’m curious to understand, where did you come up with this strategy and
1:04:52 why do you think it works so well?
1:04:57 Yeah, I’ll address the video verse static in a second, I always think about that.
1:05:01 It was during COVID, again, a big breakthrough time for me creatively because I literally
1:05:03 had more time on my hands.
1:05:06 I was sitting in my apartment and I was like, “I want to promote the podcast.
1:05:07 How do I get more people to listen to podcasts?”
1:05:10 I was like, “Well, I got to post on social.”
1:05:14 And I was like, “Well, for one, if I talk for 20 minutes on the podcast, how can I show
1:05:16 that I really understand it?”
1:05:19 Well, simplicity is the way to show you understand something, so I was like, “How can I take
1:05:24 something on the podcast that’s a complex conversation, boil it down to one sentence?”
1:05:27 So I really forced myself to be creative in that sense.
1:05:31 And then two, I was like, “Why don’t I want to just do one by one and do a little Canva
1:05:32 digital mock-up?”
1:05:34 I was like, “There’s got to be something more real.”
1:05:37 And at the time, I had these coffee cups in front of me, so I started writing on coffee
1:05:40 cups with a pen.
1:05:41 And those did really well.
1:05:44 At the time, there weren’t a whole lot of people doing handwritten stuff.
1:05:48 And then I started writing on pieces of paper and I lived in downtown Chicago, so I had the
1:05:53 backdrop and I would just start posting them all over and then I also understood the algorithm
1:05:59 somewhat well and saw the power of carousels, and not just the power of carousels, but the
1:06:01 power of series.
1:06:05 Have one idea, but to say it in eight or nine or 10 different ways so that people would
1:06:09 scroll through and find different ones that they relate to.
1:06:11 And the rest is history.
1:06:15 I write them all by hand, I still do, even though now I generally just write on a white
1:06:18 piece of paper with my pen and then I take a photo of it.
1:06:20 People’s preferences changed.
1:06:24 I think people like the simplicity and the minimalism of just the white piece of paper,
1:06:25 but I love my red pen.
1:06:26 I love doing it.
1:06:33 For me, it’s a noble, creative quest to ensure that I can distill down a conversation like
1:06:36 this into a short sentence.
1:06:40 I’m an adamant believer in the power of mantras and affirmations to have these things that
1:06:44 you believe, pieces of clarity that you could put human language behind.
1:06:48 We opened up with talking about learning to talk to yourself, not just listen to yourself.
1:06:51 So this is my way to encourage people to do that.
1:06:56 People tattoo my quotes, it’s crazy stuff, but then to your question, yeah, everyone’s
1:07:00 always like, “Okay, it’s like, why don’t you do more reels, sit down and do reels?”
1:07:01 I just like to write.
1:07:02 I really do.
1:07:07 And at the end of the day, you know, even if I were to get on a reel and basically read
1:07:11 a quote, read one of my quotes, but just say it, it’s going to get shared much more
1:07:12 if it’s already written down.
1:07:15 I’ve tested that a million times, at least in my world.
1:07:19 Maybe I’m not, don’t have the right production value or I’m not handsome enough to really
1:07:21 grab the algo’s attention.
1:07:22 I don’t know.
1:07:26 But for me, I like to write things down because there’s so much more shareable and people
1:07:29 remember it so much more because they can actually see it.
1:07:33 Reels are great and obviously video is the future on social media, but for when it comes
1:07:38 to the type of material that I really want to evangelize and help spread, short written
1:07:42 quotes for me just speaks my truth and people remember them.
1:07:43 And that’s what I want.
1:07:46 I don’t want a quick hit of dopamine that comes from a nice reel.
1:07:52 I want the longevity that comes from a piece of affirmation that people take with them
1:07:55 and print out or tattoo or all these crazy things I’ve seen people do with things that
1:07:56 I’ve written.
1:08:02 So I will continue to be the quote guy and hope people continue to receive them.
1:08:03 And you’re so good at it.
1:08:07 Everybody loves your quotes and it goes back to being true to yourself.
1:08:08 You’re not trying to be somebody else.
1:08:12 You’re not trying to be something that everybody else wants you to be or expects you to be.
1:08:16 You’re just doing your own thing and that’s magnetic to other people.
1:08:22 So if you had to pick one of these quotes to stick up on your fridge, you’ve got hundreds
1:08:23 and hundreds of them.
1:08:24 What would you pick?
1:08:28 I wrote one a while ago where I just said redirection is an upgrade.
1:08:29 I like that a lot.
1:08:34 Back to everything we’re talking about here, faith, patience, luck, vulnerability, our
1:08:39 past, clarity, our ability to see a detour, a failure, a flop, a piece of redirection
1:08:43 as opening another door as opposed to closing all the doors.
1:08:45 I really like that.
1:08:49 It’s optimistic thinking for sure, but you read that enough and you’re in the moment
1:08:51 and someone dismisses you or you’re rejected.
1:08:55 It’s like, oh, that stings, but redirection is an upgrade.
1:08:56 Let me see where this is pointing me to.
1:08:57 So I like that one.
1:08:58 It’s short and sweet.
1:08:59 Yeah.
1:09:00 That’s beautiful.
1:09:01 Okay.
1:09:04 I end my podcast with two questions I ask all of my guests.
1:09:08 The first one is what is one actionable thing our young and profitors can do today to become
1:09:10 more profitable tomorrow?
1:09:12 I’ll just go with the obvious here.
1:09:15 I would start journaling, truthfully, even from a business perspective, it gives you
1:09:19 clarity in what to do next, which I think is the ultimate thing.
1:09:24 As long as you could find things to do next, you will inevitably be profitable, whether
1:09:29 that’s emotionally profitable, mentally profitable, profitable on paper.
1:09:32 I really do advocate for a guided journaling habit.
1:09:34 You said a guided journaling habit.
1:09:37 What are some resources that you recommend?
1:09:39 I’ve made and sell a variety of guided journals.
1:09:41 You’re welcome to pick them up.
1:09:42 You don’t have to.
1:09:43 There’s great ones out there that aren’t mine.
1:09:49 I would just recommend finding a journal that asks different questions every day.
1:09:53 I find that sometimes we get into this performative journaling mode where it’s like, I’m grateful
1:09:55 for this or three things I did today.
1:10:00 Those are great, of course, but it needs to be alongside of a powerful intention driven
1:10:03 question that dives into your past.
1:10:04 I think that’s the most powerful way.
1:10:10 So find a journal that has calibrating questions, some gratitude exercises I think are great,
1:10:14 but find one that hits hard with specific different questions every day so you don’t
1:10:15 get comfortable.
1:10:18 The point of journaling is not to reinforce what you believe.
1:10:19 It’s not.
1:10:22 It’s to make you uncomfortable to evolve your thinking.
1:10:26 Whether that’s through my journal, someone else’s, create your own prompts, if you’re
1:10:30 creative, just focus on the power and depth of the question.
1:10:34 What do you say is your secret to profiting in life?
1:10:36 This can go beyond the topic of today’s episode.
1:10:38 Yeah, I would say consistency.
1:10:43 Truly, whether that’s consistency in the gym or with my business or my podcast, I’m
1:10:46 big on doing difficult things.
1:10:49 I’m a David Goggins stan in that respect.
1:10:50 Do the difficult things.
1:10:51 If it’s difficult, you have to do it.
1:10:53 Just do the freaking difficult thing.
1:10:58 I’m really big on it, whether that’s physically or emotionally or I don’t want to do another
1:10:59 episode.
1:11:00 No, do the difficult thing.
1:11:01 I’d say it’s that.
1:11:05 I’m not a sucker for doing the difficult thing consistently because I’ve just seen what happens
1:11:08 when you’re consistent with those things that most people don’t want to do.
1:11:12 It sets you apart, not that I’m apart from everyone else and there’s me.
1:11:17 It sets me apart from older versions of myself, which is the person that I compete with.
1:11:18 Do the difficult things.
1:11:19 Do them consistently.
1:11:21 Well, this was such an amazing conversation.
1:11:23 I really appreciate your time.
1:11:25 Where can everybody learn more about you and everything that you do?
1:11:26 Yeah.
1:11:27 Thanks for having me.
1:11:31 I love talking about myself, but it was cool to see how much we have in common as well.
1:11:32 Thanks so much for having me.
1:11:34 kase.kenny on Instagram.
1:11:37 The podcast is called New Mindset Who Disks, Everywhere You Listen to Pots, books, journals,
1:11:39 newmindsetwhodisks.com.
1:11:40 Amazing.
1:11:41 We’ll stick all those links in the show notes.
1:11:43 Kase, thank you so much.
1:11:48 Thank you.
1:11:51 Case Kenny is the man.
1:11:56 I love his broader approach to mindfulness, how it’s not just about sharing your feelings
1:12:00 or being present in the moment, but also about learning how to talk to yourself.
1:12:06 Like he said, mindfulness is really self Q and A, asking yourself the right questions
1:12:10 in order to understand yourself and get the most out of yourself.
1:12:14 And when you get better at that, you become more self aware.
1:12:16 You’ll end up being a lot kinder to yourself.
1:12:22 You’ll start to push back against the programming and the conditioning that drives you to be
1:12:25 so much harder on yourself than you are with others.
1:12:27 And here’s the beautiful thing.
1:12:32 Once you let up on yourself, it frees you to become a lot bolder, bolder in relationships
1:12:35 in your job and in your life.
1:12:40 I also liked Kase’s view on the past, how the tough experiences we’ve had in the past
1:12:43 really set the stage for a better future.
1:12:47 Our battle scars help us raise our standards in a good way.
1:12:52 Our failed relationships of the past teach us what to value in future ones.
1:12:57 In short, our past troubles can boost the clarity with which we view the world today.
1:13:03 Finally, like Kase, we can all learn to embrace not just our past experiences, but our present
1:13:05 embarrassment as well.
1:13:11 He actually seeks out embarrassment as a source of growth, a way to build his confidence.
1:13:16 And that’s because having a difficult conversation, an awkward encounter, or a shaky performance
1:13:22 helps us to build the mental evidence that we can survive anything, and even a flourish
1:13:23 in spite at all.
1:13:27 Thanks for listening to this episode of Young and Profiting Podcast.
1:13:32 If you listen, learn to improvise from this conversation with the amazing Kase Kenney,
1:13:36 then it’s time to be bold, take out your phone, and share this episode with somebody
1:13:38 who would benefit from it.
1:13:43 And if you did enjoy this show, and you listen each and every week, or every single morning,
1:13:47 or every time you go to the gym, then share it with us.
1:13:48 Tell us in a review.
1:13:54 Write us a five-star review on Apple or Spotify or wherever you listen to your podcasts.
1:13:56 I really love reading your reviews.
1:13:58 It makes my day.
1:14:01 And if you prefer to watch your podcasts as videos, we’re on YouTube.
1:14:06 I’m starting to do a lot more in-person interviews, which I’m really excited about.
1:14:11 And if you’re looking for me, you can check me out on Instagram at Yap with Hala or LinkedIn
1:14:12 by searching my name.
1:14:13 It’s Hala Taha.
1:14:19 I also have to take a second to say thank you so much to my amazing production team.
1:14:21 You guys are so hardworking.
1:14:22 You do such a great job.
1:14:27 I really appreciate all the experimentation you’re doing with AI and all the cool stuff
1:14:28 you guys are doing at Yap Media.
1:14:29 I love you guys.
1:14:34 This is your host, Hala Taha, aka The Podcast Princess, signing off.
1:14:37 [MUSIC PLAYING]
1:14:40 .
1:14:44 .
1:14:48 [MUSIC PLAYING]
1:14:56 [BLANK_AUDIO]

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0:01:21 What’s up, YAP BAM?
0:01:27 In this episode of YAP Classic, we’re revisiting my 2022 interview with Guy Kawasaki, canvas
0:01:32 chief brand evangelist and a true marketing legend.
0:01:37 Guy Kawasaki is somebody that you probably have heard of before because he’s just so
0:01:39 big in the entrepreneurship space.
0:01:45 As a former revolutionary at Apple in the late 80s and 90s, Guy popularized the concept
0:01:49 of secular evangelism in the technology sector.
0:01:52 And all of his ideas have basically spread like wildfire.
0:01:58 I’ve got to say, nobody knows how to nail a sales pitch like Guy does.
0:02:01 People used to say that whatever he touched would turn to gold.
0:02:06 But he told me that he actually just chooses to touch gold.
0:02:10 He picks the best products to sell and he knows how to pick them.
0:02:13 He doesn’t affiliate with crappy products.
0:02:17 In this episode, Guy and I talked about the importance of knowing how to sell, what it
0:02:23 was like to work closely with Steve Jobs, and we learned the golden rules of evangelism.
0:02:26 He also gives his best sales and marketing tips.
0:02:28 And believe me, if you’re an entrepreneur, you’re going to want to hear it.
0:02:33 There’s so much to learn from this conversation, so let’s get right into my YAP Classic with
0:02:35 Guy Kawasaki.
0:02:40 Hey, Guy, welcome to Young and Profiting Podcast.
0:02:42 Thank you for having me.
0:02:44 It is such an honor to have you on the show.
0:02:46 It seems like I hear your name all the time.
0:02:49 You are also rocking the podcasting space.
0:02:52 You are a host of the Remarkable People podcast.
0:02:56 You’re also a very in-demand keynote speaker, the author of 15 books.
0:03:01 And as for your day job, you are currently the chief evangelist of Canva, which I love
0:03:03 that software.
0:03:07 And previously, you’re also the chief evangelist at Apple, and you’re well known for helping
0:03:09 Apple become a household name.
0:03:13 In fact, you are known to have popularized secular evangelism during your time at Apple.
0:03:17 And so I feel like Apple is a great place to start this conversation when it comes to
0:03:18 your journey.
0:03:19 Far away.
0:03:20 Yeah.
0:03:25 It was a long time ago, but it’s super relevant still, and I think lots of great lessons.
0:03:30 And from my understanding, you had no technical background before you worked at Apple.
0:03:32 You had a degree in psychology.
0:03:38 You were a law school dropout, and your former college roommate actually got you the job.
0:03:40 And this was pre-Apple that we know today.
0:03:44 So 1983, the year before Macintosh came out and changed the world, and you were getting
0:03:48 your MBA, you worked at a jewelry factory, and you said what you learned at the jewelry
0:03:51 factory actually translated to your new job at Apple.
0:03:53 So I thought that was really interesting.
0:03:55 I always talk about skill stacking.
0:04:01 So take us back to your 20-year-old Kawasaki days right before you landed your job at Apple.
0:04:02 What were you like?
0:04:03 How did you get your foot in the door?
0:04:07 And how did your experience in sales translate to your job at Apple?
0:04:13 So I worked for a jewelry manufacturer in downtown Los Angeles, and this manufacturer
0:04:19 sold two retailers, Tiffany, Tivol, Billy Banks, and Biddle, those kinds of high-end
0:04:21 jewelry store.
0:04:25 And the jewelry business is hand-to-hand combat, manufacturer and retailer in terms
0:04:26 of selling.
0:04:33 So it’s not at all like today’s idea of selling where, you know, let’s test the blue line
0:04:38 versus the red line to see if it increases click-through, or let’s see if this background
0:04:41 influences click-through, nothing like that.
0:04:46 This was open up a suitcase of samples and pray for an order.
0:04:47 That’s what it was like.
0:04:50 And from that experience, I truly learned how to sell.
0:04:55 And that selling skill, because it was necessary, you either sold or you died.
0:05:01 So that translated into evangelism and has helped me the rest of my career.
0:05:06 Now, you have many entrepreneurs listening to this, and let me just cut to the chase
0:05:07 here.
0:05:12 As an entrepreneur, there are only two important functions, making it and selling it.
0:05:15 And so if you’re the engineer, you’ve got to make it.
0:05:20 And if you’re the salesperson, marketing person, evangelist, social media person, it’s all
0:05:22 about selling.
0:05:26 And so the greatest example ever of this is was and jobs.
0:05:33 So jobs couldn’t design the motherboard and couldn’t design the computer and laws couldn’t
0:05:34 sell.
0:05:35 So it worked out perfectly.
0:05:37 Laws could design and jobs could sell.
0:05:40 And that’s the genesis of Apple.
0:05:44 So if you’re an entrepreneur and you’re listening to this, you just need to understand that
0:05:49 you fundamentally need two people, one to sell and one to make.
0:05:52 And the rest is the rest is extra.
0:05:53 I love that.
0:05:56 I always say that sales skills is such an important job.
0:06:01 And for me, I remember I worked like 10 or 12 different jobs in retail, working at every
0:06:03 store in the mall.
0:06:09 And back then I was making minimum wage, but that’s translated into millions 10 years later
0:06:14 as I’m using the same skills as an entrepreneur, because my main job to your point is selling,
0:06:19 whether I’m landing sponsorships or selling social media to my clients, you’ve got to
0:06:20 sell as an entrepreneur.
0:06:26 So I’d love to hear about what were some of the key lessons you learned in terms of building
0:06:31 trust and making sales at your time, either at Apple or the jewelry factory, like what
0:06:33 are your biggest like sales tips?
0:06:38 Well, one of the things that I learned at Apple and in the jewelry business is that
0:06:42 fundamentally, well, I call it guys golden touch.
0:06:45 So guys golden touch is not whatever I touch turns to gold.
0:06:47 I wish that was true.
0:06:51 A guy’s golden touch is whatever is gold guy touches.
0:06:56 And by that, I mean, the key to sales and evangelism is that you’re selling and evangelize
0:07:00 something good, because it’s easy to evangelize and sell something good.
0:07:02 It’s hard to evangelize and sell shit.
0:07:04 So guess what?
0:07:06 Don’t affiliate with shit.
0:07:07 Duh.
0:07:12 Now that is a duhism, but you’d be amazed at how many people don’t understand that.
0:07:16 So that’s, I would say 80% of sales have a great product.
0:07:17 Yeah.
0:07:21 And so when you got on Apple, what was your actual job title?
0:07:24 My actual job title was software evangelist.
0:07:29 So my job was to convince companies to write software for Macintosh.
0:07:32 And now you have to understand that evangelism comes from a Greek word, meaning bringing
0:07:33 the good news.
0:07:39 So I was in the position of bringing the good news to developers that Macintosh was a new
0:07:44 platform, new kind of reach to a different kind of customer.
0:07:50 It prevented you from having over dependence on IBM software or IBM market.
0:07:55 And finally, for the engineer, it offered the kind of richness and development environment
0:07:58 that you could write the kind of software that you always wanted to write.
0:08:00 And so this was good news for a company.
0:08:07 It was new customers in new markets with cool potential for graphics.
0:08:09 That was the good news of Macintosh.
0:08:15 In the developer sense, in the consumer sense, the good news of Apple was democratizing personal
0:08:20 computing that people who could not have used the computer because of the user interface
0:08:23 challenges before could now use a Macintosh.
0:08:27 And today I’m chief evangelist of Canva and it’s the same thing.
0:08:29 Canva has democratized design.
0:08:35 So now you don’t have to be an expert in Photoshop or have a graphic designer in your company
0:08:39 or in your group or be a graphic designer.
0:08:43 Now you can create your own beautiful graphics.
0:08:44 Yeah.
0:08:48 So I read your book called Wise Guy and you had a lot of lessons in there that I really
0:08:51 liked and one of them was just getting a door, right?
0:08:53 And you rose up the ranks in Apple.
0:08:58 I think you ended up directly working with Steve Jobs and obviously you didn’t start
0:08:59 out that way.
0:09:03 And so I’d love to hear your advice because I have so many young professionals trying to
0:09:04 get their big break.
0:09:07 They’re looking for their dream job and they don’t realize that it starts with maybe the
0:09:11 internship and you work your ass off until you get your dream job.
0:09:15 I think very few people initially get their dream job.
0:09:20 Frankly, I’d make the case that when you’re fresh out of college or in that bracket, you
0:09:22 don’t know what your dream job is.
0:09:24 You don’t have enough data to judge.
0:09:29 So particularly for this generation, your generation over the course of your career,
0:09:31 you’ll probably have 10 or 15 jobs.
0:09:36 So you shouldn’t exactly sweat that you don’t like the first two or three because there’s
0:09:43 12 more to come and it’s different in my age bracket and older.
0:09:50 If you went to work for IBM in the 70s or the 80s, you expected to retire or die at IBM
0:09:55 or HP and that’s just not true for your generation.
0:10:01 So for one thing, there’s several pieces of wisdom.
0:10:06 So piece of wisdom number one is it does not matter how you get in.
0:10:08 So I got in because of nepotism.
0:10:10 I got in because of my college roommate.
0:10:12 Other than that, I had very few qualifications.
0:10:15 Arguably, I may not have any qualifications.
0:10:17 So I got in because of nepotism.
0:10:22 But now the important thing to know about nepotism or however you got in is that it’s not how
0:10:23 you get in.
0:10:27 It’s what you do once you get in because the day after I started at Apple, nobody gave
0:10:31 a shit that I worked for this guy or that I went to college with this guy.
0:10:36 At that point, it was you either are productive and useful and valuable or you’re not.
0:10:37 It doesn’t matter.
0:10:39 And now that can work both ways, right?
0:10:44 So if you have no background like me and you get in and you prove you’re valuable, nobody
0:10:46 cares that you didn’t have a background.
0:10:49 The flip side is also true.
0:10:55 So you could have the most amazing pedigree, Harvard MBA, Yale undergraduate, summer internship
0:10:56 at Goldman Sachs.
0:10:58 You work for McKinsey for a year.
0:11:01 So you got this perfect, perfect background.
0:11:05 But then you started a company and you are useless.
0:11:06 Well, guess what?
0:11:11 Nobody cares that you work for McKinsey or Goldman Sachs or you went to Harvard or Yale.
0:11:13 You are just useless.
0:11:15 And so that’s a very important lesson.
0:11:19 It doesn’t matter how you got in, it matters what you do once you got in.
0:11:21 I love that advice.
0:11:26 And while we’re on advice for like the younger bracket of my audience, I heard you once say,
0:11:29 and I wasn’t planning on bringing this up, but I feel like it’s very relevant.
0:11:33 You are saying that people should stay in college as long as they can.
0:11:35 You said it was pretty funny.
0:11:39 You were like, try to stay five years, not four years if you can.
0:11:41 I’d love for you to touch on that a little.
0:11:48 So of course, this does not apply to my children, but I think that college is one of the last
0:11:51 times in your life where you are truly free.
0:11:57 Your biggest problem is your chemistry midterm or your English paper that’s due.
0:12:03 And so this is the last time that those things are seeming big challenges and crises.
0:12:07 For the rest of your life, you’re going to be worried about making money, paying off
0:12:12 student loans, finding a lifelong partner.
0:12:16 God help you when you have kids, then you completely lose control of your life.
0:12:19 And so you should enjoy college as long as you can.
0:12:24 And with hindsight, I graduated in three and a half years because I’m an Asian-American,
0:12:28 so I was like overly driven to graduate fast.
0:12:29 And I didn’t take advantage of things.
0:12:32 So I could have gone to an overseas campus.
0:12:38 The school that I went to had overseas in London and Brazil and Japan, and you name
0:12:40 it, they had an overseas campus.
0:12:44 But no, I was the dumb ass who wanted to graduate as fast as possible.
0:12:47 I wish I had gone to an overseas campus.
0:12:51 Well, the biggest regrets when people are dying are the things that they didn’t do,
0:12:53 but you turned out okay, guys.
0:12:54 I think it’s okay.
0:12:57 I’ve overcome that.
0:12:59 So let’s turn it on the flip side.
0:13:00 You’ve worked at Apple.
0:13:01 You’ve worked at Canva.
0:13:04 What are some of the biggest lessons that you’ve learned along the way when it comes
0:13:08 to managing a team, employer recruitment, employer retention?
0:13:14 I think maybe the most important lesson that I’ve learned in this regard is that you should
0:13:18 hire people who are better than you at what they do.
0:13:21 So if you look around the room, let’s say you’re in a management position, or let’s
0:13:25 say you’re the CEO and the founder, you should look around the room and say, “You know what?
0:13:28 That woman is better at marketing than I am.
0:13:31 That other woman is better at finance than I am.
0:13:34 That man is better than I am at engineering.”
0:13:39 And so everybody in that room should be better than you at what you do.
0:13:44 So the biggest lesson that I learned in employee recruitment and retention and optimization
0:13:47 really is to hire better than yourself.
0:13:51 That it should be a source of pride that when you look around the room, the people you’ve
0:13:55 hired are better at the function than you could ever be.
0:14:01 As we said in the Macintosh division, A players hire A players, B players hire C players,
0:14:03 C players hire D players.
0:14:08 I’ve subsequently modified that so that A players hire A plus players.
0:14:10 And this takes some self-confidence.
0:14:14 If you look around the room and everybody in the room does their job better than you could
0:14:16 ever, then you’re the CEO.
0:14:22 You might think, “Oh my God, I’m supposed to be the big dog and I’m not.”
0:14:27 Well, I think the ultimate confirmation of you being the big dog is you’re big enough
0:14:29 to hire people who are better than you.
0:14:30 I love that advice.
0:14:31 And it’s so true.
0:14:32 You do kind of need confidence for that.
0:14:36 Some people are too cocky to do that, but that’s not how you get ahead.
0:14:40 So speaking of bosses, I heard you on another show.
0:14:42 I do a lot of research for this show.
0:14:47 And you talked about the hardest bosses and teachers being the best bosses.
0:14:51 You mentioned Steve Jobs being your hardest boss, which I just think it’s so cool you
0:14:52 got to work with him.
0:14:56 And then also, your English teacher in high school was your hardest boss, but you didn’t
0:14:58 say what they taught you.
0:15:00 So I want to know what they taught you.
0:15:06 Well, my English teacher taught me about grammar and writing, no question.
0:15:11 And grammar seems to be less and less important these days, but in those days, he just drilled
0:15:12 it into us.
0:15:16 So I learned about writing, the rigors of writing.
0:15:18 From Steve Jobs, “Oh my God, I learned so much.
0:15:24 I mean, I learned that you can’t ask your current customers how to innovate because
0:15:26 all they want is better, faster, cheaper.
0:15:30 I learned that A players hire A players or even better A plus players.
0:15:36 I learned that if people believe in what you believe in, they will go through all sorts
0:15:38 of lengths to help you.”
0:15:40 That’s evangelism.
0:15:45 And I also learned some stuff from Steve Jobs in a sense of what not to do, because he was
0:15:48 extremely demanding, even scary to work for.
0:15:52 It’s not clear to me that that’s necessary to succeed.
0:15:53 Interesting.
0:15:56 I love that.
0:16:00 Let’s hold that thought and take a quick break with our sponsors.
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0:20:45 So Jordan Harbinger is actually my mentor and one of my closest friends.
0:20:50 And you guys were having a conversation about luck and you guys got down this rabbit hole
0:20:57 about how Steve Jobs, Jeff Bezos, Mark Zuckerberg, Elon Musk, they had a lot of luck with their
0:21:01 journey and you were arguing that they’re smart but they’re not that much different
0:21:03 than everybody else.
0:21:08 And so I couldn’t tell if this was motivating or like depressing because on one side it’s
0:21:13 a good thing that we all could potentially achieve that kind of greatness.
0:21:18 I don’t know if I exactly said that Jeff Bezos, Steve Jobs and Elon Musk are not any smarter
0:21:19 than any of us.
0:21:26 The person I know best is Steve Jobs and he’s on a different plane of intelligence, okay?
0:21:28 Let’s concede that.
0:21:33 Having said that, if you gave me a choice of here’s a lucky CEO and here’s a smart one,
0:21:37 I probably would pick the lucky one based on what I know today.
0:21:44 And now when you have a Steve Jobs who is both lucky and smart and could actually influence
0:21:50 both sides so if you’re smart you may influence your luck because you’ll be in the right place
0:21:54 at the right time and if you’re lucky then you’ll seem smart.
0:22:00 It’s not exactly either or, you can be both and arguably those people are both.
0:22:04 My point was that it’s not just about you.
0:22:10 There are plenty of smart people in the world and some of them have just been unlucky.
0:22:12 Some of them have picked the wrong thing.
0:22:16 Some have been in the wrong place at the wrong time, et cetera, et cetera.
0:22:23 So if you start believing that you are God’s given gift to entrepreneurship and you’re
0:22:29 going down a bad path, you should be humble enough to understand that it takes a lot of
0:22:32 things to be successful, one of which is luck.
0:22:33 Yes.
0:22:37 And I’m sorry if I misconstrued your words, it wasn’t my intention.
0:22:38 It wasn’t my intention.
0:22:42 I wanted you to go to tell us that and I want to understand, do you feel like there’s any
0:22:46 way to maximize our chances to get lucky?
0:22:49 Well, part of it is just showing up.
0:22:51 So you have to show up.
0:22:56 I mean, look, there’s a saying, a Chinese saying that you have to stand by the side
0:23:03 of the river a long time before the roast duck will fly into your mouth, which is to
0:23:08 say, you can’t just depend on luck, you have to go make the luck happen and you have to
0:23:09 be in the game.
0:23:15 So if you’re an entrepreneur, well, if you truly believe in luck too much, you may believe
0:23:19 that you don’t even have to be an entrepreneur that someday, I don’t know what, fortune
0:23:23 will smile upon you and bada bing, bada bang, you’re presenting with the next apple.
0:23:24 That’s not going to happen.
0:23:26 You have to go start the apple.
0:23:31 You have to go fail a few times and that’s just the way it works.
0:23:35 If it was easy to be an entrepreneur, believe me, more people would be one.
0:23:36 Yeah.
0:23:37 I totally agree.
0:23:39 So let’s talk about quitting.
0:23:42 So another life lesson that you often talk about is quitting.
0:23:46 You quit law school, I think just a couple of weeks in and I agree.
0:23:49 The times that I’ve quit something in my life were some of the best decisions in my life
0:23:53 because it opened up the opportunity to do something different and sometimes you’ve got
0:23:56 a let go of good to get something great.
0:24:01 And it actually reminded me of something I interviewed this guy Colin O’Brady yesterday.
0:24:03 He’s this endurance athlete.
0:24:07 He’s crossed over Antarctica, unassisted.
0:24:12 He’s rode through Drake’s passage, which has claimed the lives of like 20,000 sailors.
0:24:16 And he told me something that really imprinted on me and it was that life is a scale of one
0:24:17 to 10.
0:24:23 So 10s are like the biggest milestones in your life, crushing it with some sort of accomplishment,
0:24:24 having a baby.
0:24:30 Ones is like going bankrupt, getting divorced, all those bad things and people tend to stay
0:24:31 at five.
0:24:32 You know what I mean?
0:24:33 They’re comfortable.
0:24:38 Every day is just five, five, five because they’re worried about hitting a one or a two
0:24:42 and they never get a nine or a 10 because they’re just staying at five.
0:24:48 And so I feel like that is very relevant to taking a chance to doing something like quitting
0:24:51 because people are just so afraid of failing.
0:24:54 So I’d love to hear your perspective on quitting and why it’s not failing and just
0:24:56 their thoughts on that.
0:24:59 So several thoughts, some of which may conflict.
0:25:01 First of all, quitting takes courage.
0:25:05 I don’t know about you, but for me, it took a lot of courage to quit because I was in
0:25:11 such this Asian American path of going to this prestigious school, then going to law
0:25:15 school, and it was all planned out being doctor, lawyer, or dentist, right?
0:25:24 So getting off that track and basically wasting the efforts of 2,000 years of my family took
0:25:26 some courage.
0:25:30 Now I interviewed Angela Duckworth and she had a very interesting take on quitting, which
0:25:36 is she says you can quit, but you should quit when it’s a good day.
0:25:43 So let’s say, I’ll take an example, let’s say that you are taking the violin and you’re
0:25:48 not allowed to quit because you are not progressing on violin.
0:25:53 You can quit if you’re doing well with violin and you just decide that you don’t like it.
0:25:54 That’s okay.
0:25:57 But quitting before you even get to that point is not okay.
0:25:59 There’s a very interesting perspective on quitting.
0:26:03 It’s easy for her to say and me to say, I’m not necessarily to do.
0:26:05 But anyway, so that’s an interesting thing about quitting.
0:26:10 You just, you have to quit in the right way for the right reason at the right time.
0:26:11 That is interesting.
0:26:17 I also think that, well, let’s see, I quit that law school, I have no regret about that.
0:26:23 I think the concept of a slippery slope is vastly overrated.
0:26:27 So you could make the case, oh, God, you quit law school, so now you’re a quitter.
0:26:29 You’re not going to be successful for the rest of your life.
0:26:31 You’re just going to be a bum because you quit law school.
0:26:34 Well, that didn’t exactly work out that way.
0:26:42 And I think if you look at many things, the referral to the slippery slope is vastly, vastly
0:26:47 overblown that if you require background checks to buy an AR-15, next thing you know,
0:26:49 you’re going to be taking away my guns.
0:26:51 That’s a slippery slope fear, right?
0:26:52 But it ain’t true.
0:26:53 Right.
0:26:58 So you need to be aware of being too afraid of the slippery slope.
0:27:03 Now, if you quit three or four things in a row, you probably should be worried about
0:27:08 the, you know, you are going down that slope, but quitting one thing, I don’t think so.
0:27:13 I think in your case, you quit, but it’s not like you decided you weren’t going to work
0:27:15 or like keep on hustling and trying to make it.
0:27:19 You found something that you enjoyed more, so I totally agree there.
0:27:25 I would say my observation is most people stay too long rather than quit too early.
0:27:31 But I got to give you a huge caveat with that, but I also have come to believe that the concept
0:27:36 that the grass is always greener is not true, and that sometimes you should fertilize and
0:27:41 water the grass you’re standing on, not try to find greener grass.
0:27:45 Are you alluding to you leaving Apple by any chance?
0:27:46 Exactly.
0:27:47 Talk to us about that.
0:27:52 Well, I left Apple twice, actually, once because I wanted to start a company, but actually
0:27:56 both times because I wanted to start a company, but let’s be honest.
0:28:00 When you leave a company to start another company, you could talk about all the romance
0:28:04 of entrepreneurship and you wanted to dent the universe and blah, blah, blah, blah,
0:28:10 but it fundamentally, at some level, it means that you are not happy or you don’t believe
0:28:11 in where you are.
0:28:17 I mean, there’s got to be some piece of your decision that is tied to that.
0:28:21 It cannot purely be all this amazing upside.
0:28:27 And so, listen, if you had told me when I quit in ’87 and ’97 that Apple would become
0:28:37 a $2 trillion company, I would have told you, you are on hard drugs, like hard illegal
0:28:38 drugs.
0:28:39 There is no way.
0:28:43 The first time I quit Apple, it’s not clear that Apple would have survived.
0:28:45 So who knows?
0:28:49 Sometimes you should just stick with it.
0:28:54 Now, this might not play well with your generation, who I just said is going to have 12 to 15
0:29:01 jobs over their career, but at least my experience, I know people who had a great one or two years
0:29:07 at Salesforce and left because at that point, Salesforce was already large, publicly traded.
0:29:09 They weren’t handing out big options anymore.
0:29:13 It was hard to see how they’re going to make millions and millions of dollars and rise
0:29:15 into this large organization.
0:29:23 Well, it’s too early to really assess that decision because I left Apple in ’97 and it
0:29:30 didn’t become a trillion-dollar company to, I don’t know, 2017 or whatever it was, right?
0:29:32 So it took 20 years.
0:29:36 Now, you might say, well, who wants to work for the same company for 20 years?
0:29:40 But that’s dependent on what you’re doing and how you’re growing, not necessarily just
0:29:43 going to the same parking space for 20 years.
0:29:49 So this interview is filled with inherent conflicts that I just want people to realize
0:29:53 who’s listening that, yes, I am conflicting myself.
0:29:58 I know I’m conflicting myself, but you have to understand that that is how life goes.
0:29:59 Yeah.
0:30:00 It’s not black and white.
0:30:02 It’s not black and white.
0:30:04 And I am just one data point.
0:30:08 With entrepreneurs, in particular, I’ll give you a classic entrepreneurial thing that one
0:30:13 theory says, you take your shot and then you pivot quickly.
0:30:18 Another says, no matter what the negativity and naysaying is about your product, if you
0:30:23 believe you stick through it, that you stick with it, and you pop out the other side, those
0:30:26 are two completely different things, right?
0:30:29 Pivot or grid it out, both have worked.
0:30:34 So it kind of depends on, well, what’s the last podcast I listened to?
0:30:35 Exactly.
0:30:37 Who’s the last person I talked to about this?
0:30:38 Exactly.
0:30:39 I love it.
0:30:40 But you know what?
0:30:42 There’s many paths to success.
0:30:46 Like you said, people succeed one way or another, and you’ve succeeded even though you’ve made
0:30:51 decisions that maybe you kind of regret, but at the end of the day, that maybe that wasn’t
0:30:52 your path.
0:30:56 Let’s talk about some of these decisions, because you quit Apple twice, then Steve Jobs,
0:30:58 I think, asked you back a third time.
0:31:01 You said, no, you almost got to be the CEO of Yahoo.
0:31:03 Well, that’s an overstatement.
0:31:05 I was asked to interview.
0:31:06 Let’s take the worst case.
0:31:09 Let’s say I got asked to interview, and I was offered the job.
0:31:11 So I could have been, yes.
0:31:16 You could have been the CEO of Yahoo, and I guess that was before Yahoo was Yahoo, right?
0:31:17 Well, yeah.
0:31:19 Right there, that’s two billion.
0:31:21 Those are billion-dollar decisions.
0:31:22 Yes.
0:31:26 Have you learned anything about decision-making, where do you feel like you’ve gotten better
0:31:31 at it, or do you just feel like, again, it’s this luck idea of luck?
0:31:35 Well, who among us doesn’t think they’re getting better at decision-making?
0:31:38 But let’s just say we’re not all right.
0:31:40 So I don’t know.
0:31:43 Listen, I turned down this opportunity with Yahoo.
0:31:44 I quit Apple twice.
0:31:47 I turned Steve Jobs down for another offer.
0:31:49 So there’s four right there, right?
0:31:55 So that would be roughly, I’d say, two and a half billion dollars total.
0:31:58 And two and a half billion here, two and a half billion there.
0:32:01 It adds up to real money after a while.
0:32:08 So on the other hand, a lot of it is positioning and branding often in your own mind.
0:32:14 So in my mind, the way I explain myself is, okay, so I worked at Apple and Canva.
0:32:16 Ah, who’s going to say you’re a failure?
0:32:23 I mean, Apple and Canva, I mean, that’s two very good acts, right?
0:32:25 I mean, I think you are far from a failure.
0:32:30 You are very successful, and Canva is becoming this huge company.
0:32:32 I mean, you really found a unicorn.
0:32:34 You do know how to pick them.
0:32:37 Well, okay, let’s discuss that.
0:32:38 Okay.
0:32:39 Okay.
0:32:44 Because it’s very important that I think entrepreneurs truly understand what goes on.
0:32:47 So I started with Apple because of nepotism, right?
0:32:48 Okay.
0:32:49 Then I left Apple.
0:32:50 I started a company.
0:32:51 I went back.
0:32:52 I started another company.
0:32:56 Those two companies you would not have heard of because they were moderate if successful
0:32:57 at all.
0:33:03 Because of venture capitalists, I probably put down, I don’t know, 15 bets or something.
0:33:09 So if you just looked at the numbers, if you just were a numerical geek, you’d say, okay,
0:33:14 guys, so you have Apple and Canva, and you have 15 failures.
0:33:17 So guys, two for 17.
0:33:18 So that’s one way of looking at it.
0:33:25 The way I look at it is, I may be two for 17, but look at the two.
0:33:29 Look at the two, and everybody knows who you are, who’s the popular pot, you’re being
0:33:30 way too modest.
0:33:31 You’ve written 15 bucks.
0:33:32 Come on.
0:33:33 No, no, no.
0:33:36 Well, you know, but listen, I’m not a trillionaire.
0:33:37 I’m not a billionaire.
0:33:39 I’m just like, I’m a surfer.
0:33:41 I just like to surf and podcast.
0:33:42 That’s what I do.
0:33:43 I surf and podcast.
0:33:48 That’s my, I have decided that, you know, my podcast, I’m on a mission to make people
0:33:50 remarkable with my podcast.
0:33:52 And it’s not because of my wisdom.
0:33:56 It’s the wisdom of people I interview, such as if you’re an entrepreneur, I’ve interviewed
0:33:58 Steve Wozniak.
0:34:01 I’ve interviewed the CEO of Pooparee, which is a great story.
0:34:08 Don’t laugh at that story, Susie Bates, Frey Farm, The Most Pumpkins, Hintwater.
0:34:14 So I have a lot of different kinds of entrepreneurs in my podcast.
0:34:17 And I think my podcast is actually over the course of my lifetime.
0:34:18 I’ve been an evangelist.
0:34:19 I’ve been an investor.
0:34:20 I’ve been an advisor.
0:34:23 You know, whatever, et cetera, et cetera.
0:34:28 The best work I’ve ever done is my podcast without question.
0:34:31 It’s also at least appreciated.
0:34:33 I might be able to help you there.
0:34:38 I have to say, my client, Marshall Goldsmith, went on your podcast and we were planning
0:34:43 to put out a podcast and you were so good at the podcast that he literally came to me
0:34:48 in a meeting and he was like, Hala, I don’t think I want to do this podcast anymore.
0:34:49 And I was like, why Marshall?
0:34:51 You were so excited about it.
0:34:57 And he’s like, I went on this guy’s podcast guy Kawasaki and he was so good and so prepared.
0:34:59 And this is just way too much work.
0:35:01 I could not be doing this, Hala.
0:35:06 And I was like, all right, we’ll switch gears, whatever you want, Marshall.
0:35:07 This is a great story.
0:35:10 So of course, I’ve been on the other side of this discussion, right?
0:35:13 So one day I get an email from Marshall Goldsmith.
0:35:16 And I hope people out there understand who Marshall Goldsmith is.
0:35:18 He’s like the living Peter Drucker, of course.
0:35:23 They may not know who Peter Drucker is, but so Marshall Goldsmith is arguably the best
0:35:27 executive coach in the world, maybe ever.
0:35:31 And so he sends me this email, says, “Guy, you changed my life.”
0:35:34 And I said, “But is this Spam?”
0:35:37 So he says, “Give me a call to schedule a time.”
0:35:39 So I call him and it’s really him.
0:35:42 And he says, “You know, guy, he tells me this story, that he was on my podcast and
0:35:43 he listened to it.
0:35:45 It was so well done and I was so well prepared.
0:35:47 He just doesn’t want to do it anymore.
0:35:49 He told me, “God, you changed my life.
0:35:52 You made my life better because I was going to try this and it’s too much work and it’s
0:35:53 too hard.
0:35:54 I don’t want to do it anymore.”
0:35:59 And so that is like one of the greatest forms of praise I’ve ever had.
0:36:03 How funny is it that it’s all coming full circle and then I’m the one behind it?
0:36:04 So funny.
0:36:05 That’s true.
0:36:06 I lost you, a client.
0:36:07 I’m sorry.
0:36:09 No, we’re doing all his social.
0:36:10 That’s all good.
0:36:11 Okay.
0:36:12 Okay.
0:36:13 I have a question for you.
0:36:14 Sure.
0:36:19 Because I’ve been on the other side of this conversation 175 times, okay?
0:36:20 Okay.
0:36:26 So are you just so smart that you have remembered these details to ask me these questions or
0:36:28 do you have notes in front of you?
0:36:30 Oh, well, I have a teleprompter.
0:36:31 Okay.
0:36:32 So you’re looking at the notes?
0:36:37 I can flip back and forth and usually when I say the question, in the very beginning
0:36:41 when I do the intro, I’m reading it because I don’t want to butcher it.
0:36:42 Okay.
0:36:45 So then as we’re going along, I’ll peek at it, I’ll read it, and then I’ll flash it
0:36:47 back down so that I just have my notes.
0:36:48 I’m very, very well prepared.
0:36:51 So I have a little teleprompter and I just flip back and forth.
0:36:58 Well, listen, I’ve been on many of these interviews and nobody, seriously, no bullshit.
0:37:04 I’ve never seen an interviewer who makes better eye contact and yet seemingly has all these
0:37:06 facts memorized.
0:37:07 Thank you.
0:37:08 Never.
0:37:11 So that’s why I asked you how you did it because I was all set for you to tell me no guy.
0:37:14 I did all my research and it’s all up here.
0:37:19 Well, a lot of it is, a lot of the conversation has been all up here.
0:37:23 And a lot of the conversation, like I’m just flipping through and being like, oh yeah,
0:37:27 I wanted to ask about that and I don’t have time to read it all, but I just see like little
0:37:28 bits of it.
0:37:33 And you know, part of the confidence is just writing it all out and preparing.
0:37:40 So I hope that you don’t edit this part of the conversation out, but I want all you people
0:37:45 listening to this podcast that Hala is a fantastic interviewer.
0:37:49 And I say that and I consider myself a fantastic interviewer.
0:37:50 Thank you.
0:37:52 That’s so sweet.
0:37:54 Thank you so much.
0:37:55 That’s so nice.
0:37:58 I won’t cut it out because there’s whatever I prepared.
0:38:00 I always tell everybody, you got to prepare, man.
0:38:03 I go on interviews and you know what they do to me sometimes.
0:38:04 I hop on.
0:38:06 How do you pronounce your name?
0:38:07 Yeah.
0:38:09 I’m like, oh, you say you haven’t listened to one episode.
0:38:11 Why am I on here?
0:38:12 I have a theory.
0:38:14 We’re going down a deep hole right now.
0:38:16 So here we are.
0:38:25 I have a theory that I like to start my podcast with a question that sets the interviewer
0:38:30 back in the sense like, holy shit, Guy really read the entire book.
0:38:31 Me too.
0:38:34 He’s not asking a question from the intro or chapter one.
0:38:39 He’s asking a question from the middle of the book or he’s asking a question that
0:38:44 God, he watched some YouTube video like 10 years ago that I did.
0:38:49 This is not just somebody stuck the Wikipedia entry in front of him and said, okay, go ask
0:38:51 you know, Jane, good, all these questions.
0:38:52 100%.
0:38:53 Yeah.
0:38:54 I do that too.
0:38:58 I’ll make sure that I say something just so that they feel comfortable like, oh, okay,
0:39:02 this is going to be a good interview because she actually like knows these little details.
0:39:03 Yep.
0:39:05 I didn’t just read your Wikipedia page.
0:39:06 Yeah.
0:39:13 All right, so let’s get back to the actionable advice for these young and profiting podcast
0:39:14 listeners.
0:39:16 Well, but that’s actionable, Hala.
0:39:23 I mean, the lesson here is 99.9% of the people, whether it’s podcasting or entrepreneurship
0:39:26 or you know, whatever, don’t freaking prepare.
0:39:27 Yeah.
0:39:33 They think they’re just a very good example of this is pitching your company.
0:39:38 The most entrepreneurs believe that they’re natural communicators, they’re going to rise
0:39:42 to the top, they’re going to rise to the occasion, and they’re going to just pitch from their
0:39:46 hearts that it’s going to work out right because they’re a natural.
0:39:49 And that’s total unequivocal bullshit.
0:39:52 And so you need to prepare.
0:39:53 I want to stick on this.
0:39:54 Yeah.
0:39:58 So if Steve Jobs, Steve Jobs used to prepare for weeks for a keynote.
0:40:01 And if Steve Jobs needs to prepare for weeks, guess what?
0:40:05 You are not Steve Jobs, not you, Hala, you listening.
0:40:07 You are not Steve Jobs.
0:40:11 So if Steve Jobs needed weeks, you probably need months.
0:40:15 And I have to say, having a good pitch skills, being able to demo your product.
0:40:16 This is Stokey.
0:40:17 I have a funny story too.
0:40:23 So when I was first starting YAP Media, I was just, I had my podcast two years into
0:40:25 it, grew this brand.
0:40:26 People were asking me to be their client.
0:40:29 I kept pushing it away and then finally it was like, fine, I’ll give this a shot.
0:40:32 I had volunteers and interns and I was like, I’ll hire them, right?
0:40:33 Yep.
0:40:37 I remember, I had a billionaire that was interested in my services.
0:40:39 His name is Jason Waller, still my client.
0:40:40 And I had no website.
0:40:41 I had no logo.
0:40:43 I wasn’t even incorporated.
0:40:45 I had no trademark, nothing.
0:40:48 All I had was my PowerPoint presentation skills.
0:40:51 And I was a good presenter and I did it for myself already.
0:40:57 And so I went in, I gave a pitch and I closed like my first deal was a $30,000 monthly retainer
0:41:03 from a freaking PowerPoint presentation that I just designed really nicely.
0:41:09 And so it just goes to show you like, if you can pitch and demo, you can make so much out
0:41:11 of literally nothing.
0:41:16 Well, especially now, if you use Canva instead of PowerPoint, you’d have gotten a $50,000
0:41:17 retainer.
0:41:18 I did use Canva.
0:41:22 I’ve been a user of Canva for like, I’ve been like, I don’t know how they’re not sponsoring
0:41:23 me.
0:41:24 I’ve been using Canva for like five years.
0:41:25 I work for them.
0:41:28 And they don’t sponsor me.
0:41:31 I literally made my presentation on Canva.
0:41:32 Oh, great.
0:41:37 But you know, the lesson there is, but you prepared obviously, right?
0:41:38 That’s number one.
0:41:43 I was preparing my whole, it’s like you prepare, like preparing with so many different things
0:41:47 like presenting at HP, presenting at Disney, presenting in my MBA.
0:41:52 It was just like many, many experiences that led up to that moment that changed my life.
0:41:53 Yep.
0:41:58 And so the lesson there is you got to show up and you got to be gritty.
0:42:03 As I said before, standing by the side of the river, the roast duck is not going to
0:42:04 fly in your mouth.
0:42:06 Yeah.
0:42:09 Let’s hold that thought and take a quick break with our sponsors.
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0:46:31 I want to hear more advice about your pitching skills because I know that you talk about
0:46:33 it a lot with evangelism.
0:46:35 What should we do?
0:46:37 How should we prepare for a demo?
0:46:39 What do we need to know?
0:46:44 First of all, I think the key to a pitch is the preparation.
0:46:48 The preparation, for an entrepreneur, let’s say you’re pitching to a venture capital
0:46:50 firm.
0:46:57 You have better know who’s in that room, where they came from, what school did they go to,
0:47:01 what are their interests, what are they invested in, what boards are they on, everything like
0:47:02 that.
0:47:05 You’re looking for hooks that, “Oh, we both went to Stanford.
0:47:07 We both like to surf.”
0:47:12 You’re on the bar of copper, and I love copper as my CRM solution.
0:47:17 You’re looking for hooks to differentiate yourself from the other dumbasses that came
0:47:20 in at eight, nine, 10, one, two, and three.
0:47:22 You’re the four o’clock appointment.
0:47:28 Everybody said we have patent pending curve-jumping paradigm shifting way to dent the universe.
0:47:33 We’re going to provide you with unbelievable shareholder returns while enabling our employees
0:47:38 to self-actualize their life goals or exceeding the expectations of our customers.
0:47:40 Every entrepreneur says that.
0:47:43 Nobody says I’m a dumbass who’s lazy.
0:47:50 You have to find hooks, and the hooks are LinkedIn is God’s gift to pitching, basically.
0:47:53 If you don’t study LinkedIn before pitch, something is wrong with you.
0:47:54 You’re an idiot.
0:47:58 Have a sign on your head that says, “I am clueless.”
0:47:59 That’s the preparation.
0:48:04 I think initial concept is you can never be too brief.
0:48:08 I’ve never sat in a presentation or a pitch and said, “This was too short.
0:48:11 It was too succinct.
0:48:12 Something is wrong.”
0:48:16 I have never ever said that, and I’ve sat in thousands of pitches.
0:48:21 There’s the guy called Saki 1020 or 30 rule, which is 10 slides in 20 minutes, 30 point
0:48:23 font minimum.
0:48:26 That’s a good foundation or framework.
0:48:33 The other metaphor that I would love for entrepreneurs to understand is to think of yourself as an
0:48:36 airplane or a pilot in an airplane.
0:48:45 At two ends of the spectrum in airplanes, there is the 787 Air, Airbus A380 at one end,
0:48:54 and at the other end, there’s the F-15, the F-18, the whatever.
0:49:00 The A380 and the 787, they have two miles of runway and they go rumbling down.
0:49:04 At the end of two miles, they take off and everybody says, “How the hell can half a million
0:49:05 pounds ever exceed?”
0:49:08 It’s a miracle that those planes take off.
0:49:11 At the other end, you’re on an aircraft carrier.
0:49:16 You get in this plane, you have 150 meters to get off the flight deck or you fall in
0:49:18 the water and you die.
0:49:23 I think most entrepreneurs think they are piloting a 787.
0:49:26 They come into this pitch and they say, “Well, let me tell you my life story.”
0:49:31 My great-grandfather came over on the Mayflower and he landed in New Canaan Connected and
0:49:39 then he started a horseshoe business and then they made it rich, so they endowed a fellowship
0:49:44 at Yale and I got into Yale and in the first summer, I worked at Goldman Sachs and then
0:49:49 I got into Harvard MBA and I started at HP in the internship program and then I took
0:49:54 Windows classes and finally, I decided to start a company.
0:49:56 That’s the Airbus A380.
0:50:01 The F-18 pilot has got to get off the deck and you should be an F-18 pilot.
0:50:07 In the first 30 seconds, everybody in that room should understand what you do.
0:50:12 I have sat in so many pitches where they’re talking about their whole family heritage,
0:50:15 their education, their strategy, the size of the internet.
0:50:17 The internet is going to be big.
0:50:18 You know that, right?
0:50:20 Let me explain how big the internet will be.
0:50:25 This is right now and so there is this Airbus A380 trying to get down this two mile runway
0:50:28 and I’m sitting there, I’m thinking, “Is this hardware?
0:50:29 Is this software?
0:50:30 Is this e-commerce?
0:50:32 Is this social networking?
0:50:33 Is this AI?
0:50:36 What the hell do they do?”
0:50:43 I think the most important lessons are be brief, prepare and get your ass off the tarmac
0:50:44 as fast as you can.
0:50:48 30 seconds into it, they should understand this is a software company.
0:50:50 This is a cloud-based software company.
0:50:52 What does Canva do?
0:50:54 It democratizes design so you don’t need Photoshop.
0:50:57 There, I said it, five seconds.
0:50:58 I love that and practiced, right?
0:51:00 I’ll hop on discovery calls.
0:51:04 I know they can’t afford my services and I’ll just do it to practice, right?
0:51:05 Practice your pitch.
0:51:08 What about who we should pitch to?
0:51:12 There’s the right people and the wrong people and some of them are really uphill battles
0:51:13 so I’d love to hear that.
0:51:18 Well, you may not agree with this piece of advice but I think that when you’re starting
0:51:21 out, you should pitch to anybody who’ll listen.
0:51:23 I don’t think you can be proud.
0:51:29 Of course, we’d all like to pitch to John Doar or the general partner, the big cheese
0:51:33 at Sequoia or Kleiner Perkins or whoever, right?
0:51:34 We’d love to pitch to Elon Musk.
0:51:38 We’d love to pitch to Tim Cook, et cetera, et cetera.
0:51:41 But I’m telling you, when you start off, you should just pitch to anybody who’ll listen.
0:51:45 And it’s for the reason that you mentioned that, yeah, you may be starting with the summer
0:51:50 intern who’s not going to make a decision to write you a check for five million bucks,
0:51:54 but 20 summer interns later, you will be meeting with a partner.
0:51:56 At that point, it’s too late.
0:52:04 You need to have had 25 rejections and 25 practice sessions to be ready for this great
0:52:06 meeting.
0:52:08 And you have to pay the price.
0:52:09 Yeah.
0:52:13 So what about more generally, though, like when it comes to evangelism and trying to
0:52:19 market a product, you don’t want to market a product to people who just don’t believe
0:52:20 in it.
0:52:21 You want to go agnostic.
0:52:24 I want to hear those lessons from you.
0:52:30 So I would say that here we go with some sort of conflicting advice.
0:52:36 On the one hand, I would say that you should pitch even a product to anybody who will listen.
0:52:37 It’s good practice.
0:52:38 And you may never know.
0:52:43 You may think that this person is not qualified, but this is a summer intern or secretary,
0:52:48 administrative aid, customer service manager, whatever, not the decision maker.
0:52:49 But guess what?
0:52:54 The decision maker is listening to this person because this person really does the work.
0:52:58 Or this person you’re pitching to, spouse is a decision maker at another company.
0:53:00 You just never know.
0:53:03 So I’m really into indiscriminate pitches.
0:53:09 I think it’s also humbling that you should not think that you are so freaking important
0:53:14 that unless you are talking to the CXO, this company is not worthy of your time, right?
0:53:16 Frankly, you know, you’re bullshit.
0:53:17 You’re full of shit.
0:53:20 Anyway, so that’s one thing.
0:53:24 Now, on the other hand, as you say, you could be wasting a lot of time doing what I’m saying.
0:53:31 And I freely admit that, but I would say that, yes, go for it.
0:53:36 Go do your qualification and figure out who the decision maker, et cetera, et cetera is.
0:53:37 Yes.
0:53:40 And again, LinkedIn is your greatest weapon in this.
0:53:45 But if you said, OK, guy, should you pitch too much or too little?
0:53:47 Should you evangelize too much or too little?
0:53:49 I would say too much.
0:53:51 You’re on the side of doing too much.
0:53:58 And this is completely in the face of the concept of select a few targets, know them
0:54:04 well, get just the most highly qualified, specific user rifle.
0:54:06 I’m telling you, use a shotgun.
0:54:07 Yeah.
0:54:11 I mean, this goes back to a lot of the things that we’ve been touting today, like expanding
0:54:16 your luck, showing up, getting practice, preparing, right?
0:54:20 It’s just all those things combined because you never know who you pitched to, like what
0:54:23 that will end up being or who will end up being in 20 years even.
0:54:27 OK, I’ll tell you a great story that you as a podcaster will truly appreciate.
0:54:28 Sure.
0:54:30 So do you know who Angela Duckworth is?
0:54:31 Yes.
0:54:33 A Carthar Ward winner, you know, grit, right?
0:54:34 Yes.
0:54:35 OK, big deal.
0:54:36 Maybe she’s your client.
0:54:39 Not my client, but probably will be on my podcast soon.
0:54:40 OK.
0:54:44 So who among us as a podcaster would not want to have Angela Duckworth?
0:54:45 Nobody.
0:54:46 Nobody.
0:54:47 Nobody in their right mind.
0:54:48 Maybe Joe Rogan would want.
0:54:51 But anyway, so I want Angela Duckworth, right?
0:54:52 So I don’t know her.
0:54:57 So I send an email to whatever info@angeladuckworth.com, no response.
0:55:00 Weeks go by and I default to yes.
0:55:05 I kind of say, like I really didn’t know exactly what I was getting into today, but I default
0:55:06 to yes.
0:55:09 Now, if you think that I did all the research and you had Marshall Goldsmith and you know,
0:55:12 how many followers are you, the most influential person on LinkedIn and all?
0:55:15 And that’s why I said, yes, you can believe that God bless you.
0:55:16 But that’s not the truth.
0:55:19 The truth is, I default to yes.
0:55:21 So I default to yes.
0:55:26 And one day I’m on this podcast as a guest and the person starts off by saying, yeah,
0:55:30 so you know, hi, my name is whatever, Trixie Smith.
0:55:33 And I live in, I don’t know, Mobile, Alabama.
0:55:35 And I am a freshman in high school.
0:55:36 Oh boy.
0:55:38 And so we’re going to talk about whatever, innovation, right?
0:55:40 And I was sitting there saying, God, you are such a dumbass.
0:55:47 Like why did you accept to waste an hour of your life on a podcast with a 14 year old
0:55:49 person from Alabama?
0:55:55 Not that I have anything against Alabama, but you know, and she probably has five subscribers
0:56:00 to her podcast, mom and dad, aunt, uncle and younger brother.
0:56:01 Okay.
0:56:05 But lo and behold, man, she asks great questions.
0:56:09 And then at the end of this podcast, I say to her, who else have you had on your podcast?
0:56:12 And I’m thinking, who else was dumb enough to say, right?
0:56:18 And she said, Oh, two weeks ago, I had Angela Duckworth and my freaking jaw is on the ground.
0:56:20 And I said, you had Angela Duckworth.
0:56:21 How did you get Angela Duckworth?
0:56:26 Well, Angela Duckworth really likes to help young women succeed.
0:56:30 So I, as a young woman reached out to her and she said, yes, I said, okay.
0:56:32 I said, so how about this?
0:56:34 Will you ask Angela Duckworth to be on my podcast?
0:56:36 And she says, yes.
0:56:43 So she, 14 year old girl in, like I said, Mobile, Alabama with over the moon podcast.
0:56:45 She writes to Angela Duckworth.
0:56:49 She sees me and lo and behold, Angela Duckworth answers.
0:56:53 And one thing leads to another and I get Angela Duckworth on my podcast.
0:56:54 Amazing.
0:56:58 So that’s, people might think, oh, guy, everybody knows who you are, your big deal, blah, blah,
0:56:59 blah.
0:57:02 So that’s how you, even Angela Duckworth would be thrilled to be on your podcast.
0:57:06 You know, she’s probably just checking info@angeladuckworth.com every half an hour, looking for that
0:57:07 invite.
0:57:13 But the truth is, it was a 14 year old podcaster from Mobile, Alabama with five subscribers
0:57:16 who got me on, who got me Angela Duckworth.
0:57:21 Now that, every entrepreneur should listen to that story and say, huh, what’s the point?
0:57:25 Point is, you never know, you never know.
0:57:30 For all you know, you know, for all you know, her, her grandfather was Warren Buffett.
0:57:31 Who knows?
0:57:32 Right?
0:57:33 Exactly.
0:57:34 Well, that’s cool.
0:57:37 I know her name and, and help her.
0:57:38 I can’t remember.
0:57:42 Now I want to be like Angela Duckworth and help this girl.
0:57:43 That’s right.
0:57:44 All right.
0:57:47 So let’s talk about enchantment before we go.
0:57:52 I know we’re wrapping up on time here, but I love this concept of like, likeability,
0:57:56 first impressions and making people like you more.
0:58:00 So I’d love to hear your best advice and guidance when it comes to you being more enchanting.
0:58:01 Okay.
0:58:03 So enchantment, I think has several pillars.
0:58:07 Enchantment is likeability because it’s hard to be enchanted by someone you don’t like.
0:58:08 Let’s face it.
0:58:09 Right?
0:58:10 So there’s likeability.
0:58:16 There’s also sort of competence that it’s hard to like people who are incompetent bozos.
0:58:18 That’s the second leg.
0:58:22 And the third thing is trustworthiness because you could like somebody.
0:58:25 You could like some tick-tock influencer.
0:58:28 That doesn’t mean you trust that tick-tock influencers.
0:58:30 You could like Paris Hilton.
0:58:32 That doesn’t mean you trust Paris Hilton.
0:58:38 So likeability, trustworthy and competence, those are the three pillars of enchantment.
0:58:43 And so this book enchantment is about how to increase all three of those things.
0:58:47 As far as likeability, I think a lot of it is just, well, this was written before the
0:58:48 pandemic, right?
0:58:52 So I think a lot of likeability is what is your handshake like?
0:58:57 Is it like wimpy or are you trying to crush the person’s hand or is it in the middle?
0:58:59 What is your smile like?
0:59:02 Is it a grit your teeth, hold the pencil in your teeth kind of smile?
0:59:06 Or is it a legitimate, happy Duchenne smile?
0:59:07 Are you showing crow’s feet?
0:59:09 You’re too young to have crow’s feet, Hala.
0:59:11 But are you showing your crow’s feet or not?
0:59:15 Because crow’s feet is a very good indication of sincerity in smiling.
0:59:18 So it’s those kinds of things.
0:59:23 And a third thing in likeability is are you accepting people for what they are or are
0:59:24 you trying to change them?
0:59:30 So I think people can pick up when you can sense that this person thinks that I should
0:59:36 be a Democrat or I should be a Republican or I should be something that I’m not.
0:59:40 It’s hard to like people who don’t accept you for what you are.
0:59:45 And I know that you say you also should be aligned to a good cause.
0:59:49 And I thought this was really interesting because you wrote the book in 2011 and in
0:59:54 the last year, I feel like every other conversation I have is like conscious business, conscious
0:59:55 leadership, right?
0:59:59 Like everybody wants to talk about aligning purpose with a good cause.
1:00:02 And it seems more recent because I’ve been doing this for four or five years and now
1:00:04 everyone’s talking about that.
1:00:09 So I’d love to hear your thoughts on why you think we should align ourselves to a good
1:00:11 cause and you obviously thought this for a long time.
1:00:17 Well, just to be clear, I’m not saying you should align yourself with a good cause because
1:00:20 it’s good marketing and good financial returns and good all.
1:00:25 And that, although those may be true, don’t get me wrong.
1:00:26 Biproducts, yeah.
1:00:34 Yeah, it is a byproduct and I just believe that there is a karmic scoreboard in the sky.
1:00:38 And this karmic scoreboard is tallying what you do with your life.
1:00:44 And if you jack people around and screw them and you like trash the earth and all that,
1:00:46 it’s being counted someplace.
1:00:50 Now you can say, guy, you’re so full of shit, you know, like, do you have any scientific
1:00:52 proof of this karmic scoreboard?
1:00:53 Not at all.
1:00:54 You can’t prove God either.
1:00:56 But you know, I digress.
1:01:00 But I’m just saying, you know, with something like this, why take a chance?
1:01:01 Why take a chance?
1:01:05 I mean, you’re only talking about your life, your reputation and who knows, maybe your
1:01:06 afterlife.
1:01:10 So, you know, do you want to be stuck in a 737 in a center seat in the smoking section
1:01:15 or you want to be in Singapore Airlines or, you know, Emirates Airbus A380?
1:01:16 It’s up to you.
1:01:19 So I just think it’s good karma.
1:01:20 Yeah.
1:01:22 I love your defaults.
1:01:23 Yes.
1:01:24 I’m the same way.
1:01:25 I just say yes.
1:01:26 Yeah.
1:01:28 If you can help somebody, if you have the time, why not?
1:01:29 Even if you don’t have the time.
1:01:30 Yeah.
1:01:33 Well, this has been such a great conversation, guy.
1:01:37 I always end my interviews with the same couple of questions and then we do some fun
1:01:38 stuff at the end of the year.
1:01:44 So the first one is, what is a piece of actionable advice that my young and profitors can do today
1:01:46 to become more profiting tomorrow?
1:01:50 You can learn how to truly empathize.
1:01:53 That is, this goes beyond market research.
1:02:01 So, you know, so market research is basically go and see, go see how people live, go, whatever.
1:02:07 I would say if you want to do it even better, you go and be, which means you go and be the
1:02:08 person.
1:02:13 Like you, let’s say you’re doing a study of customer service, so you could go to the
1:02:18 customer service center and you could see what happens on the call lines, or you could
1:02:24 actually put the headset on and be the customer service person, or you could actually call
1:02:28 into your company’s customer service and be the customer.
1:02:34 Empathy is a great skill and it’ll just open your eyes to so many things.
1:02:35 Oh my gosh.
1:02:36 I love that advice.
1:02:41 And what is your secret to profiting in life and this doesn’t have to be monetary.
1:02:43 profiting is whatever you believe it is.
1:02:46 Listen to your wife.
1:02:47 How’s that?
1:02:48 Why?
1:02:50 Because women are smarter than men.
1:02:52 I truly do believe that.
1:02:57 Like if you look at this world right now, men have screwed this world up from top to bottom
1:02:58 for centuries.
1:03:00 I think we should let women run the world.
1:03:05 I mean, what a better place to stop the interview right then and there.
1:03:09 And where can our listeners go to learn more about you and everything that you do?
1:03:14 Well, if you truly want to see my best work, go to remarkablepeople.com.
1:03:16 Just a word of caution here.
1:03:20 Remarkable people is not guys spouting off about how to be remarkable.
1:03:25 Remarkable people is guys getting people like Jane Goodall and Steve Wozniak and Neil deGrasse
1:03:31 Tyson and Ariana Huffington and Kristi Yamaguchi and I could just go on on Angela Duckworth
1:03:32 on and on.
1:03:37 I’m trying to get the wisdom from them into you.
1:03:39 That’s what I’m doing on remarkable people.
1:03:40 I love it.
1:03:43 Well, if you guys like my podcast, I think you’re going to love guys, so make sure you
1:03:44 check it out.
1:03:48 We’ll stick all of his links in the show notes, and thank you so much for this amazing conversation.
1:03:49 My pleasure.
1:03:52 And maybe I should have you on the podcast.
1:03:54 I would love to be on the podcast.
1:03:56 They call me the podcast princess.
1:03:58 I built a media empire.
1:04:02 I have 60 employees, started it as a side hustle.
1:04:04 I’d love to be on your podcast.
1:04:08 I know you’re the podcast queen.
1:04:09 Forget the princess.
1:04:10 Oh, thank you.
1:04:11 I’m not saying you’re old.
1:04:12 No, I know.
1:04:14 I feel like I want the princess for a few years, and then I’ll graduate to queen, like.
1:04:15 Okay.
1:04:17 All righty.
1:04:18 All the best to you.
1:04:19 Take care.
1:04:20 Thanks, guy.
1:04:20 Bye-bye.
1:04:30 [Music]
1:04:32 [Music]
1:04:42 [BLANK_AUDIO]

0:00:05 Today’s episode is sponsored in part by Teachable, Fundrise, Mint Mobile, Working Genius, Indeed,
0:00:06 and Shopify.
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0:01:08 As always, you can find all of our incredible deals in the show notes.
0:01:13 Money allows you to walk out of situations that you don’t want to be in.
0:01:16 My husband couldn’t understand why I would quit something that was making really great
0:01:17 money.
0:01:23 We went from zero to a million dollars in about 13 months.
0:01:27 I’m a wellness and fitness person, but I love wine, but I want something lighter.
0:01:30 And I was like, this is a huge opportunity.
0:01:32 And so I had started raising the $2 million for that.
0:01:34 Now we did not see COVID coming.
0:01:35 I felt like a failure.
0:01:40 I had an investor who was like, I can’t believe that I invested in this.
0:01:44 It is a leader and founders job.
0:01:48 To consistently paint the vision even when you can’t even see it.
0:02:10 Young and Peropters, welcome back to the show.
0:02:14 And today we’re really lasering in on pivoting.
0:02:18 Pivoting is something that us entrepreneurs are going to have to deal with at one point
0:02:19 or another.
0:02:24 Because entrepreneurship is never a straight line to success.
0:02:25 It’s a rocky road.
0:02:28 We might fall out of love with our business.
0:02:31 We might find another opportunity that seems more lucrative.
0:02:34 We might have a business that fails.
0:02:35 So many startups fail.
0:02:39 It’s so hard to even just launch the right idea.
0:02:42 Whatever it is, pivoting is something we’ve got to get used to and got to get used to
0:02:44 doing with grace.
0:02:48 And there’s no better person to talk to us about this than Lori Harder.
0:02:49 Lori Harder is a serial entrepreneur.
0:02:51 She’s a best-selling author, speaker.
0:02:56 She’s also the host of the super popular podcast called Earn Your Happy, which is now in my
0:03:00 Yap Media podcast network, which I’m very excited about.
0:03:03 And Lori has such an incredible story.
0:03:07 She’s been pivoting and transforming her entire life.
0:03:11 She started out as a very obese overweight child who got teased.
0:03:19 And she transformed into a fitness model, fitness influencer, and fitness three-time champion.
0:03:21 Talk about a transformation.
0:03:27 She then pivoted from the fitness world to the self-improvement and entrepreneurship world.
0:03:33 She then pivoted into podcasting, and now she’s pivoted into live events and DTC products,
0:03:39 even pivoting her first product from an alcohol brand to a skincare brand.
0:03:44 Lori has so much information to share when it comes to pivoting with grace.
0:03:46 And I can’t wait to get into it with you guys.
0:03:50 Without further delay, here’s my conversation with Lori Harder.
0:03:53 Lori, welcome to Young and Profiting Podcast.
0:03:55 I’m so excited to be here.
0:03:57 I can’t wait to chat with you.
0:03:58 Likewise.
0:04:00 I love chatting with my girlfriends.
0:04:04 And Lori, I thought I knew a lot about you, but it turns out I didn’t know much about
0:04:09 you once I started studying all your work and your life.
0:04:15 And I found out that when you were a child, you were actually pretty overweight.
0:04:20 And that was so surprising to me because I’ve always known you as somebody who’s super fit.
0:04:22 You’ve been a fitness model in the past.
0:04:26 And I just had no idea that you had this transformation.
0:04:30 So I’d love to understand what was it like for you as a kid?
0:04:33 How did that actually shape who you are as an entrepreneur today?
0:04:40 Oh, my gosh, coming from a family that it really stemmed from all of our joy came from connecting
0:04:41 over food.
0:04:48 It was just as far as I can remember back all of our extracurricular time when we were
0:04:53 sad, when we were happy, when we were bored, we connected over food.
0:05:00 And I remember having a really loving childhood as far as family and parents go.
0:05:06 But also there was a lot of pain that’s connected to when you use food as a crutch.
0:05:10 Because when I think about my mom, my sister and all of my mom’s sisters who she had four
0:05:13 sisters, there was a lot of anxiety.
0:05:15 There was a lot of depression.
0:05:17 There was a lot of health issues.
0:05:19 There was a lot of self loathing.
0:05:22 So it was kind of a mix of everything.
0:05:27 And for me, having those moments as a young kid, I remember when I was eight or nine years
0:05:28 old.
0:05:33 It was the first time I realized, oh, this is going to be a little bit painful being
0:05:35 in this body.
0:05:40 I got invited to a pool party with a bunch of friends in my church.
0:05:43 And I remember having such a massive crush on this one kid.
0:05:49 I was that kid who was so outgoing before this, even before this moment, which we’ll
0:05:50 chat about in a second.
0:05:54 But I was always, oh, my gosh, look at my dance moves.
0:05:55 Look at this dance I made up.
0:05:56 Record me.
0:05:58 Somebody put a camera on me.
0:06:00 This is who my personality was at the core.
0:06:05 And so I remember going to this pool party, and I got this new swimsuit because the love
0:06:07 of my life was going to be there.
0:06:13 And I could not wait to go up on this diving board and show it off and do this pool flip.
0:06:16 And I remember walking up one of my best friends at the time.
0:06:18 She was super skinny.
0:06:22 She was climbing up the ladder in front of me and looking at her legs going, oh my god.
0:06:26 Being that young going, oh, I wish I could be that thin.
0:06:28 And all the boys liked her.
0:06:34 And I get up on the diving board and I can hear the kids, my friends chanting something.
0:06:39 And they’re saying whale over and over and over again.
0:06:45 And I just remember standing on the edge of the diving board and having that moment of
0:06:46 I want to hide.
0:06:52 And so I went from this really outgoing, look at me, can’t wait to perform.
0:06:53 I want to sing.
0:06:54 I want to dance.
0:06:57 I want to start to start to hide because of my body.
0:07:02 And I remember being under the water though and thinking, literally, I’m not going to
0:07:03 let this happen to me.
0:07:10 And so even though I was really young, I started thinking, is there a way that I could have
0:07:13 this not be my destiny?
0:07:18 So fast forward to being about 11 or 12 years old, I was sitting at the table with all of
0:07:19 my aunts.
0:07:25 Again, a really loving family, but a lot of struggle around weight, thinking that this
0:07:27 was our genetics.
0:07:30 And we were all sitting around eating at a family get together.
0:07:34 And they had known that I started working out, just doing some exercising at home, doing
0:07:35 exercise videos.
0:07:41 And they’re like, just wait, you’ll be fat just like us, no matter what you do.
0:07:47 And in that moment, I remember rejecting it again, like, no, this can’t be, this can’t
0:07:48 be genetics.
0:07:52 Because what they’re saying to me is this is just how you are and it’s who you are.
0:07:59 And it just led me on this lifelong journey of searching for other people to learn how
0:08:01 they were being healthy and fit.
0:08:05 And as a teenager, I would beg my mom to buy me fitness magazines when we go to the grocery
0:08:06 store.
0:08:13 And those were the first times that I was able to understand that I’m reading what they
0:08:18 eat and how they live, because they would post their schedules and things in these different
0:08:19 magazines.
0:08:21 And I was like, we’re not doing that.
0:08:28 So that was the moment for me of, wow, certain ways of living get certain results.
0:08:33 And our way of living is getting one result, but it was this moment of the work is hard.
0:08:38 It’s challenging to be healthy and get the things that you want.
0:08:42 And so that was the catalyst for all of that in the fitness world.
0:08:44 It’s so amazing.
0:08:48 And I love what you’re saying in terms of the fact that when you were younger, before
0:08:54 you got this external feedback from your peers, you were who you are today.
0:08:58 An outgoing girl who loves to be on stage, who loves to shine, who loves the attention,
0:09:03 you get the external feedback and suddenly you’re like a shell of yourself.
0:09:08 So talk to us about the things that you did when you were a child that isolated you and
0:09:13 then how once you were a teen and got out of the house that you were able to pull yourself
0:09:14 out of that.
0:09:17 Well, I think there were a couple other reasons for isolating as well.
0:09:20 So I had that and then I grew up in a more restrictive religion.
0:09:24 So we weren’t allowed to associate with anyone outside of our religion.
0:09:25 So take a small town.
0:09:26 I’m from Upper Michigan.
0:09:28 I’m from Marquette, Michigan.
0:09:30 It’s a fairly small town in Upper Michigan.
0:09:32 You’re surrounded by the woods.
0:09:36 Anything close to that really resembles a city is about three hours away.
0:09:41 So taking a small town and making it smaller by only being allowed to associate with people
0:09:47 in your congregation and your religion, we had approximately around 110 people in our
0:09:48 church growing up.
0:09:52 So I wasn’t allowed to do any extracurriculars and I wasn’t allowed to do anything with anyone
0:09:55 in school or quote unquote, “worldly people.”
0:10:00 So for me, I think the hiding also started because I was going to school, an elementary
0:10:05 school and middle school, but because there wasn’t a whole lot of different kids in Upper
0:10:08 Michigan, like there wasn’t a lot of diversity up there.
0:10:14 I remember one African-American student in my entire school career.
0:10:19 And so it’s like, you’re also abnormal if you’re not celebrating holidays and you can’t
0:10:24 do the art projects in art and you can’t date and you can’t go and spend the night at people’s
0:10:27 house and you can’t go to their house after school.
0:10:31 And so I got made fun of a lot in school and I started to get panic attacks.
0:10:38 So then I labeled myself because my mom was also experiencing these things and I labeled
0:10:42 myself as someone who has panic attacks and I labeled myself as an anxious person.
0:10:50 And I just started isolating more and more and more and it became a much bigger challenge
0:10:54 for me as I was older to try to work through those things because you gain an awareness
0:11:00 that once you’re out in the real world, you’re not going to function well if you can’t connect
0:11:02 with other people.
0:11:09 And so my entire life’s work has been, how does a girl who came from a restrictive religion
0:11:13 who isn’t allowed to associate with anyone else who did not have any other network because
0:11:19 I ended up leaving that religion at 18 into a world of no friends, really.
0:11:25 I had a couple from my religion who also left, but that didn’t go well for that more us either.
0:11:29 When you’re held like a spring and you let go, it’s like we had a disastrous life for
0:11:30 a few years there.
0:11:34 It was drinking and partying and it just was not a great experience.
0:11:37 So how do you build a network?
0:11:39 How do you overcome anxiety?
0:11:44 How do you even start to dream when you’ve never seen the possibility in your social
0:11:49 circle of what is possible for you because it’s never been in your social circle?
0:11:53 And how do you create an entirely new identity outside of this woman that I used to be or
0:11:59 girl that I used to be who was very much like, “Okay, we need to make sure we just preach
0:12:05 about the Bible and if you struggle, that must be righteous.”
0:12:10 And really challenged money story and challenged with my weight and all of those different
0:12:11 things.
0:12:17 So that’s why I love what I do now because I feel like I’m a bit of like an excuse eliminator
0:12:20 because when I hear things I’m like, “Oh no, you can do this.
0:12:21 Like I did it.
0:12:22 Let me show you.”
0:12:26 It’s funny on podcasts, it’s like, “Oh, we got to go back to the beginning again.”
0:12:28 But the beginning is so important.
0:12:32 It’s so important to see where we all came from to know like you can do it too.
0:12:34 This is so possible for you.
0:12:35 Totally.
0:12:38 And now you’re on stages with 15,000 people.
0:12:40 You always have these awesome events.
0:12:42 You’ve got amazing companies.
0:12:45 So you’ve totally transformed yourself.
0:12:49 So you became a fitness influencer essentially.
0:12:50 You became a fitness model.
0:12:53 You were a three-time world champion.
0:13:00 Talk to us about the first real entrepreneurship experience that stemmed from that.
0:13:06 My very first entrepreneurship experience was because our back was up against the wall.
0:13:15 So I will say I think that life offers us the perfect challenge in order for us to use
0:13:18 it to find our gifts and to find our purpose.
0:13:21 And so I got married at a really young age.
0:13:26 I met my husband when I was at the end of 20, almost 21.
0:13:33 And we were those people who just knew fairly quickly that we were going to be together.
0:13:36 And he had the same, you know, he was a big dreamer.
0:13:37 He was into fitness too.
0:13:42 And so when I married him, we were able to go, “Okay, what are the big dreams that we
0:13:43 want?”
0:13:49 But I was more supporting him because what I also haven’t shared is that because I was
0:13:53 homeschooled through high school and there was just a whole lot going on with my parents,
0:13:54 I never graduated.
0:13:56 I have never gotten my GED.
0:14:00 I’ve gone back to try to get it when I was younger and still failed it.
0:14:03 And I just was terrible at math and testing, come to find out much later, as I just had
0:14:05 never learned how to test.
0:14:06 Yeah.
0:14:08 Crazy testing, guys.
0:14:14 So when I married my husband, he was on an amazing trajectory in his career.
0:14:19 When I met him, he was fairly successful, but when we got married and we just put fitness
0:14:25 and each other and this dream of him building this career and me supporting this dream,
0:14:26 it started to take off.
0:14:30 But his career was in mortgage and finance.
0:14:38 And in 2008, which was not long after we got married, there was a recession, which mortgage
0:14:43 and finance, that whole industry essentially got erased for a while.
0:14:47 Not just owe it struggling, like, oh, it’s going down the toilet.
0:14:52 Like, it’s literally got completely erased, which means there was no really great place
0:14:54 for him to go.
0:14:59 And so we ended up losing everything because as young kids do, when his career was taking
0:15:04 off out 24 and 26, when his career was really starting to take off, we spent it all and
0:15:06 lived way beyond our means.
0:15:10 And at the time, I wasn’t even like into the finances.
0:15:12 So it didn’t come as a total surprise.
0:15:17 But when the recession hit, it was like, oh, we’re losing our house.
0:15:18 We’re losing our cars.
0:15:21 And we are $300,000 in debt.
0:15:26 And we have to borrow money from his parents to even go and get another place.
0:15:31 And so we borrowed their retirement fund, essentially wiped out their entire retirement
0:15:37 fund, which doesn’t feel very good when you are every decision that you make, you feel
0:15:40 like someone is looking at because you owe them money.
0:15:43 And that’s not what they were saying by any means, but it’s how it feels.
0:15:46 It feels like you’ll never get out of that hole.
0:15:52 And so my first entrepreneurship experience was because my back was up against the wall.
0:15:56 And when that happened, and when Chris came to me, who’s my husband, and he’s like, we’ve
0:15:57 lost everything.
0:15:59 I don’t have anywhere to go.
0:16:01 I wasn’t the breadwinner.
0:16:05 I was working random retail jobs, making hardly anything.
0:16:11 And I had started at LA Fitness not long before this, and I had started personally training.
0:16:18 And I had heard somebody say, probably like three months prior to this, to make sure that
0:16:20 you proclaim your dreams to people.
0:16:25 So I had started as a personal trainer, talking to my clients because you end up having these
0:16:28 great relationships with a lot of your clients.
0:16:33 I told them about my dream to own a gym and be like a Jillian Michaels at the time.
0:16:38 I didn’t have an example of, what does it look like to be like a famous fitness person?
0:16:42 And there was like biggest loser stuff, and that was about it and being on covers.
0:16:45 So I told them, I want to be on covers because that’s what inspired me.
0:16:50 When I was young, I used to carry these fitness magazines around and they were dog-eared and
0:16:51 they were my icons.
0:16:54 I just followed everything that these women did.
0:16:58 And so I was telling this woman that I wanted to have my own gym and et cetera.
0:17:04 And she had said to me right after this had happened, right after we were kind of struggling,
0:17:05 not kind of struggling, really struggling.
0:17:06 Yeah.
0:17:07 She was 28.
0:17:10 I think I was 26 at the time.
0:17:14 And she said, I’m opening my own chiropractic studio.
0:17:16 How cool is that at 28 in the Midwest too?
0:17:18 I’m like, wow, that’s amazing.
0:17:24 And she said, if you want to come and train me and trade for free, train me three times
0:17:28 a week, you can work out at the lower level of this chiropractic center until you can
0:17:29 pay me.
0:17:33 And two weeks later, I literally said yes on the spot.
0:17:34 I didn’t know what that would look like.
0:17:38 I was like, I’m pretty sure I have a non-compete and your studio is two blocks away, but we’re
0:17:42 just going to work this out and lie about it.
0:17:50 And so I had said yes and also realized, which didn’t even care, the lower level to her chiropractic
0:17:53 studio was completely unfinished.
0:17:55 And I did not have the money to finish it.
0:18:00 So it was studs and wires, and there was no workout equipment down there.
0:18:01 There was no mirrors.
0:18:02 There was no nothing.
0:18:06 So I’m like, okay, how’s a girl go and figure this out?
0:18:10 And I remember my husband and I went to a Walmart and we got the flooring, the flooring
0:18:15 you put in like a toddler’s room, like the square you piece together.
0:18:17 We put that down on the ground.
0:18:18 We found black, thankfully.
0:18:20 It wasn’t all different colors.
0:18:24 We put that down on the ground and I bought a couple sets of weights, but because they’re
0:18:29 expensive at the time for me, I bought a lot of those straps that bust and pop in your
0:18:31 face, you know, like the rubber bands.
0:18:35 So I was like, I don’t normally train with bands, but girl’s going to learn how to train
0:18:36 with bands.
0:18:41 And then I bought those mirrors that you put on the back of your door, like as a teenager,
0:18:42 the sticky mirrors.
0:18:43 And I bought three of them.
0:18:45 It’s like all I could afford.
0:18:50 And I remember this woman coming down because she had answered an ad that we had put out
0:18:53 there and she pulls up in a Range Rover.
0:18:57 And I didn’t really know what a Range Rover was at the time, but I was like, I know they’re
0:18:58 expensive.
0:19:04 And I was like, oh, shit, she’s about to walk down to this no change in the basement with
0:19:06 my janky things.
0:19:11 And so she walks down the stairs and I go, don’t mind, we’re under construction.
0:19:12 We just opened.
0:19:14 We’re going to remodel all of this.
0:19:19 So thank you so much for being one of the first clients.
0:19:20 She totally didn’t care.
0:19:24 She stayed with me for like three years into the studio that I had ended up getting the
0:19:26 year after.
0:19:30 And it was just one of the most beautiful lessons.
0:19:35 And it was one of the biggest things that shaped me is the biggest, most beautiful things
0:19:43 start really small and you’ll gain your deepest insights there for everything.
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0:24:44 I love this story.
0:24:50 It just shows so much how you really grew it from the ground up.
0:24:51 And I love the story of you and Chris.
0:24:58 I had no idea that you guys met so young and now you guys are just this amazing power couple
0:25:02 that’s always doing these awesome events and it’s just really inspiring honestly to hear
0:25:06 the story about how you guys grew together and did this all together and how he supported
0:25:08 you and helped you.
0:25:12 So at what point did you take this and scale it online?
0:25:14 What was that like?
0:25:20 With the in-person personal training, you kind of have a realization that you are trading
0:25:25 time for money because I wanted to make more because of this number that we were in debt.
0:25:30 And so my head and my husband’s head starts doing the math on how long is this going to
0:25:31 take us.
0:25:35 And you realize you’ll be like 80 years old to pay this off.
0:25:41 So we’re like, okay, can’t just trade in-person stuff because we’ll never pay this off and
0:25:47 we’ll never be in the positive essentially the way that we want to live life at all.
0:25:53 So at that time I was starting to do fitness competitions and the woman that I had found
0:25:59 through a fitness magazine and I had gone to her camp had an online training membership.
0:26:04 But the membership was for fitness competitions if you wanted to compete.
0:26:10 So it would be the workouts, it’d be the competition diet, all of those things, group calls, group
0:26:11 recognition.
0:26:13 And I was like, wait, this is freaking amazing.
0:26:18 And I wouldn’t I do this for just the people who can’t train with me because I had slowly
0:26:24 started building a Facebook presence and I built it simply by every single day I would
0:26:28 show up and write something that I was going through or something that I was reading and
0:26:30 something that I was doing to move through it.
0:26:35 And it became like an online journal for me and somehow I didn’t even realize what I was
0:26:36 doing.
0:26:38 I was obviously growing a personal brand.
0:26:41 And so I would have people all the time because I’d talk about my workouts that day, I’d post
0:26:45 them online and I’d have people would be like, God, I wish I could train with you.
0:26:47 I wish we could do this together.
0:26:49 And so I knew that there would be some people.
0:26:51 I didn’t know how many there would be.
0:26:55 But I’m like, oh, I think I can count like five who would join this thing.
0:26:59 And so in the beginning, I gave my in-person clients who couldn’t train with me more than
0:27:00 a day.
0:27:04 I gave it to them for free to start to give me feedback.
0:27:09 And one of the women who I gave it to, mind you, your girl didn’t graduate.
0:27:13 So it was this typed out horrible PDF version.
0:27:17 It looked fine, but it certainly didn’t look great.
0:27:22 So one of the women that I gave it to, she’s like an editor for this big company that she
0:27:23 works for.
0:27:24 And she loved me and I loved her.
0:27:30 And she was like, Lori, I love that you’re doing this, but I’m going to help you format
0:27:34 all of this for free because you’re giving it to me for free.
0:27:36 And so that was my first experience.
0:27:41 She helped me level up my brand and also this experience of go look and trade.
0:27:45 If you’re great with the workouts, but you’re not great with this, go and try to find people
0:27:47 that you can barter with or trade with.
0:27:51 And so that’s really how I started doing a lot of different things.
0:27:56 I had that moment of, wait, if this is working for this, why couldn’t I go barter for this
0:28:00 or barter for that for now until we can really get this thing off the ground.
0:28:03 And so that’s how the online fitness membership started.
0:28:05 We had that for like nine years.
0:28:07 We did challenges to get people in there.
0:28:09 First it started with a 30 day challenge.
0:28:14 Then as people’s attention started to deplete, we did a 14 day challenge, then a seven day
0:28:18 challenge ultimately was our challenge that really, really crushed, that just did really
0:28:19 well and brought a lot of people in.
0:28:26 So we always hovered from like 1,000 to 2,500 members paying around $89 a month.
0:28:33 And it was a great, great membership that I loved until I decided to pivot.
0:28:36 And I remember when I made that decision, because we were doing some other things too,
0:28:39 we had really gotten into business and entrepreneurship.
0:28:43 And my husband couldn’t understand why I would quit something that was making really
0:28:44 great money.
0:28:49 That is a whole other conversation, but when you grow into something after nine years,
0:28:55 so different, and I was so thoroughly enjoying the entrepreneurship world and events and
0:28:58 being in that energy and helping those people, it’s weird.
0:29:01 It’s like your soul can’t even do the other thing anymore.
0:29:04 I wasn’t identifying as a fitness person anymore.
0:29:08 I was identifying as me being a person who loved fitness, but I wasn’t identifying with
0:29:13 me wanting to help people necessarily on their fitness journey.
0:29:19 I really wanted to do a full pivot into helping people with their business and money in big
0:29:20 dream journey.
0:29:26 Well, that makes sense because I feel like the easiest way to start as an entrepreneur
0:29:29 is to scale something out that you’re really good at, right?
0:29:33 So you were really good at fitness.
0:29:36 You didn’t dream about becoming a fitness teacher.
0:29:41 That wasn’t your ultimate dream, but that was what you could when you had no money away
0:29:43 for you to make a lot of money, right?
0:29:45 It reminds me of starting my social agency.
0:29:49 I never wanted to have a social agency, but I was really good at it.
0:29:50 So it was my first business.
0:29:51 And so I just did that.
0:29:54 Now I’m passionate about my network.
0:29:58 My agency is doing great, but that’s not really my passion.
0:30:01 I always wanted to have a podcast network, right?
0:30:07 So it’s so cool that you were able to realize that for everybody out there right now who
0:30:14 wants to be an entrepreneur, often I say, think about who you needed back when you weren’t
0:30:15 an entrepreneur.
0:30:16 And I feel like that’s the business you created.
0:30:21 You created a business for the little girl that grew up overweight.
0:30:26 Can you talk to us about what you saw in the community that you built in terms of the
0:30:30 women’s that you served and how that made you feel in terms of your purpose and everything
0:30:31 like that?
0:30:41 Looking back, I think that people’s first, almost like spiritual cracking open or first
0:30:51 experience with, oh, there’s more or I’m here for a reason can happen through fitness.
0:30:58 And I think that that is because when you find wellness or fitness, maybe you’re not
0:30:59 sleeping well.
0:31:01 Maybe you’re not treating your body very good.
0:31:02 Maybe you’re not eating very well.
0:31:03 You’re not moving.
0:31:08 And I think that in order to be the vessel, which is what I believe we’re here to do is
0:31:14 be the vessel in which we get to live out our dreams and our purpose.
0:31:18 And in order to get those messages, you have to be fairly healthy.
0:31:19 You need to move your body.
0:31:20 You need to eat well.
0:31:22 You need to be sleeping.
0:31:25 And then later on, you learn that there’s levels to these cracking open.
0:31:30 I’m just going to use those words of, oh, your next level, so on and so forth.
0:31:34 And your next level after fitness is going to require community.
0:31:38 And your next level after that is going to require a community that stretches you or
0:31:40 some big challenges.
0:31:45 So what I noticed in the fitness world is that women would come thinking they wanted
0:31:50 the abs and what would end up happening is that they would realize that it was never
0:31:51 about that.
0:31:53 It was about a bigger purpose.
0:31:58 And the more that they would eat better and move better and feel better, the more they
0:32:01 would go, oh my God, I think there’s more for me.
0:32:08 And then not just more, they also wanted to make money because money allows you to walk
0:32:11 out of situations that you don’t want to be in.
0:32:13 That is what I noticed.
0:32:16 And that is where my heart started to be so pulled.
0:32:21 I realized I was training a whole lot of women who were in situations that were not necessarily
0:32:23 chosen, but they felt trapped.
0:32:27 And I’m not even talking about necessarily just marriages or relationships, but that
0:32:28 would come up a lot.
0:32:34 But jobs, jobs, family dynamics, like very interesting things that they felt they were
0:32:38 stuck in due to financial situations and circumstances.
0:32:43 Did you actually just shut down the fitness business?
0:32:50 One of the things I had left out is that along there, when we were rebuilding and I had that
0:32:57 studio, the gym in the chiropractic center, I got a client who had worked with my husband
0:32:59 in the mortgage industry.
0:33:02 And she was like, hey, Chris, does your wife still train?
0:33:03 Can I train with her?
0:33:05 I want to lose 100 pounds.
0:33:08 So I was super excited because I’d met her a couple of times and I really liked her.
0:33:12 And I started training with her and she would always talk about these supplements she was
0:33:13 taking.
0:33:16 And at the time, because I was in the fitness world and working with a coach who was like
0:33:20 an all natural, not like drugs or anything, but food only.
0:33:21 She didn’t want shakes.
0:33:23 She didn’t want supplements.
0:33:28 She was like, get your nutrition through food, really, really clean coach.
0:33:32 And because I was working with her, when someone would talk about shakes and supplements, I
0:33:33 was like, no, no, you should do food.
0:33:36 And she’s like, I’m a busy woman.
0:33:40 I can’t be cooking these five meals that you’re telling me because at the time I’m young.
0:33:42 I’m not thinking of people with kids or busy lives.
0:33:46 I’m like, no, you need to make five meals a day.
0:33:47 I learned later.
0:33:49 I’m like, wow, is that crazy to ask that of women?
0:33:50 Okay, got it.
0:33:53 So she’s telling me about these things that she’s taking.
0:33:54 I’m like, blah, blah, blah.
0:33:55 Don’t take them.
0:33:59 You need to just eat these five meals I’m giving you this meal plan.
0:34:05 And so fast forward six months, she loses almost 100 pounds.
0:34:10 And as great of a trainer as I was, I was not getting those results with other people.
0:34:13 So I was like, what on earth are you doing now?
0:34:17 She had entered a challenge and she was obviously sticking really closely to it and working
0:34:18 out or whatever.
0:34:21 But she felt great every day.
0:34:23 This girl was in the best mood.
0:34:27 She started lifting heavier than me, which was just a moment of, wait a minute, you’re
0:34:33 like lifting heavier weights while you’re losing weight, which is normally really counter-intuitive.
0:34:35 And you’re like really tired.
0:34:38 You can lose muscle when you’re losing all that weight.
0:34:45 And so I was like, bring me that shake that you’re on six months in and I had said, no,
0:34:47 for that long because it was network marketing.
0:34:51 And so that was my breakdown moment is I was struggling with my diet and I was competing
0:34:53 and I was not feeling good.
0:34:58 I was feeling kind of depressed because the food was just like, blah, and I wasn’t eating
0:34:59 great.
0:35:00 And that was it for me.
0:35:03 I was like, okay, let me try this.
0:35:04 And I tried it two weeks later.
0:35:05 I had never felt better.
0:35:12 I actually ended up two months after going in competing and sweeping two national titles
0:35:18 that have never, ever been swept in the same year, ever, still has never happened because
0:35:21 I just had never felt so good in my life.
0:35:28 And so I got into network marketing and we went from zero to a million dollars in about
0:35:30 13 months.
0:35:31 Wow.
0:35:32 Because I was so passionate.
0:35:34 My back was up against the wall.
0:35:36 I needed to pay off my in-laws.
0:35:37 That was hovering over my head.
0:35:43 I felt like I couldn’t buy anything without feeling awful and I had gone bankrupt as a
0:35:44 teenager.
0:35:45 Well, I hadn’t, but my parents hadn’t.
0:35:47 And I was like, I am not repeating this story.
0:35:50 We were listening to Secrets of the Millionaire Mind.
0:35:54 We had started in network marketing, which that company in particular that we were in,
0:35:56 it was called Isagenix.
0:36:01 We’re actually still in it, but it was more of a personal development company than even
0:36:02 a network marketing company.
0:36:08 So we had gotten so deep into money mindset, learning about being abundant and all of
0:36:09 those different things.
0:36:12 So the reason I’m telling you that is because when you said, what did you do with the gym?
0:36:17 That was doing so well along with the membership that I actually gifted it to one of my best
0:36:19 friends and she took it over for a year.
0:36:24 So I just handed her the keys with all of the equipment, all of the clients.
0:36:25 And I said, here you go.
0:36:27 I knew that she wanted to start a business.
0:36:33 She had just left her husband and had an amazing business for a year and got to take all of
0:36:36 my clients, which was a gift to me because I didn’t want to give them to someone I didn’t
0:36:37 trust.
0:36:42 And so that was my first big, oh my God, this is what money can do.
0:36:43 That’s exciting.
0:36:44 So awesome.
0:36:50 So you have a huge podcast, which has just recently joined our Yap Media Network, which
0:36:52 I’m so excited about.
0:36:53 I love it.
0:36:57 And Laurie, you’re a legendary business female podcaster.
0:37:02 I remember when I thought of Laurie Harder, I thought podcast first.
0:37:05 I don’t know if it’s just because I’m biased, I’m in the podcast industry, but I always
0:37:09 knew you as a podcaster and a big podcaster.
0:37:12 So at one point where you’re like, all right, I’m starting this podcast.
0:37:13 Oh man.
0:37:14 Okay.
0:37:16 I had listened to podcasts.
0:37:18 That’s where it all started from, number one.
0:37:21 I was such a podcast junkie.
0:37:28 I was a huge Lewis Howes podcast fan, and then I joined his mastermind because I would
0:37:32 listen to podcasts and I had messaged him.
0:37:36 I would tag him and message him and just give takeaways from the podcast.
0:37:37 I’m like, thank you so much.
0:37:38 Oh my God.
0:37:39 Because I was a big runner.
0:37:45 So when I would run three to four times a week, I was doing six miles each time.
0:37:46 That’s a full podcast.
0:37:48 That’s like an hour podcast.
0:37:52 And so I was just consuming these podcasts while in state.
0:37:56 When you’re running and you’re working out or you’re walking, walking is huge.
0:38:00 You’re just in a state where you’re going to absorb, you’re going to crack open, you’re
0:38:02 going to get more ideas.
0:38:04 So podcasts completely changed my life.
0:38:07 They were my running and walking mentors.
0:38:09 They would change my mindset.
0:38:12 They would help with my anxiety.
0:38:13 It was everything for me.
0:38:17 And so when I joined Lewis Howes mastermind after messaging, like he had talked about
0:38:20 it on his podcast, I would have never found it if it wasn’t for that.
0:38:22 So I messaged and he was like, you should join it.
0:38:25 And I was like, me, I should join this.
0:38:27 That feels really scary and crazy.
0:38:29 And it was a big price tag.
0:38:31 And I brought it home to my husband and he’s like, we should join this.
0:38:33 And so we joined it.
0:38:39 And I think being in that and really just hearing he made it more accessible, like impossible.
0:38:42 And so I just decided, okay, I’m going to start this.
0:38:49 And I also was feeling that I wanted a way to deeply connect with my audience more.
0:38:56 I was feeling like the captions or just the little bit that you get to post on social
0:38:57 does not tell the story.
0:39:00 And I’m like, I’ve got a story to tell.
0:39:03 It’s very different to feel like you have a story to tell than to put yourself in a
0:39:08 room for the first time, turn on a mic and go, what the hell do I have to say?
0:39:10 I’m a big dummy.
0:39:13 That’s how that can feel in the beginning.
0:39:15 Oh, here’s a tip.
0:39:19 If you want to start a podcast, please go back to your favorite podcasters, pick three
0:39:22 to five of them, go back to their first three episodes.
0:39:25 And I promise you, you’ll feel so empowered to start.
0:39:26 You’ll have no problem.
0:39:31 I listened to mine and I’m like, oh my God, it’s so bad.
0:39:33 And I’m so proud of that girl.
0:39:37 Like I’m so proud of the people who start because it’s not easy.
0:39:40 But that’s how the podcast started is.
0:39:43 I was like, there’s such deeper stories to tell.
0:39:45 It was like fitness, fitness transform my life.
0:39:47 I want to teach it, podcasting, transform my life.
0:39:48 I want to do it.
0:39:52 Yeah, it seems like our type of person who just loves to give back once you level up,
0:39:56 you’re like, okay, how do I teach this to other people now that I’ve learned it?
0:39:57 It’s partly selfish too.
0:40:04 Like I want people hearing like, yes, I love giving back more than I can possibly tell you.
0:40:07 But the love of giving back has grown for me through the years.
0:40:13 But it started as teaching just felt really good, but teaching helps me learn.
0:40:19 They say that if you really want to learn, you’ll start to teach on the subject that
0:40:21 you love even in fitness.
0:40:28 A crazy story is outside of finding the network marketing company and then winning those national
0:40:29 titles that year.
0:40:34 What had changed for me before those competitions because I had been competing for almost five
0:40:40 years at that point without winning the first, but what changed for me that year is that
0:40:44 was the year that I really dove into teaching people how to be on stage and stage presence.
0:40:50 So I had started camps in person on the weekends where every Sunday, and it was based off of
0:40:55 that woman’s training, that membership I was a part of, but I became an ambassador.
0:40:58 And so every Sunday I was teaching women how to pose, how to walk.
0:41:02 I was helping them with their fitness routines, all the run-throughs they’d practice at my
0:41:08 studio, and it was the observation of others and getting so granular to the point of wanting
0:41:11 to improve them so much that you improve.
0:41:16 And so that was the year that I can tell you everything changed for me because I was so
0:41:18 in the teaching, you embody it.
0:41:24 We’ll be right back after a quick break from our sponsors.
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0:45:44 That is such a life hack.
0:45:46 I totally agree with that.
0:45:51 Every time I’m putting out a new course or some sort of new training, I end up doubling
0:45:55 my expertise on the topic because it makes you think about, “Well, I don’t know about
0:45:58 this,” or, “I need to learn more about that.”
0:46:02 You learn it, and you relearn everything you already learned, and suddenly you’re a better
0:46:03 expert than you were.
0:46:09 That is such a life hack to teach other people to become a better expert.
0:46:12 A really cool story that I heard that’s very different from us.
0:46:14 I’ve bootstrapped my company.
0:46:20 I’ve never raised money, and I heard that you got a lot of your investors for your
0:46:24 first company, Light Pink, from your podcast.
0:46:29 I think that’s really cool to go into because a lot of people think that podcasts can only
0:46:36 be an opportunity to make money via sponsorships, but you can get clients for your business,
0:46:40 and something I never really thought about is you can get investors for your business.
0:46:45 Talk to us about moving into your product business and how you decided to start raising
0:46:47 money and how you got your investors.
0:46:49 Oh, my gosh.
0:46:51 People are like, “How do you get investors from a podcast?”
0:46:57 Well, a podcast is such an intimate way to connect, and you won’t necessarily connect
0:46:58 with everyone in that way.
0:47:03 I’ve absolutely had podcasts, hundreds of them at this point where I get off, and I’m
0:47:05 like, “Okay, no connection, but thank you.”
0:47:06 See you later.
0:47:07 See you later.
0:47:08 See you later.
0:47:19 That was a rough one, but then you have these podcasts where it’s like right now.
0:47:20 We’re laughing.
0:47:21 We’re understanding each other.
0:47:25 We’re like, “Oh, my God,” or there’s a similarity there, or you just can really
0:47:31 drop in and you’re enjoying the conversation, and it creates a relationship.
0:47:35 When you’re raising money, it’s all about who’s in your network and who you have a relationship
0:47:36 with.
0:47:41 A podcast may not be like, “Oh, I’m going to ask this person to invest immediately,”
0:47:44 but what it does is it creates a relationship that came from the podcast.
0:47:50 Now, I did have one experience like that, actually, where we did one podcast.
0:47:55 She was referred to me by someone, so already there was some mutual trust there.
0:48:00 She had a book that was coming out all about business and going for it.
0:48:05 In the middle of the podcast, I knew that I wanted this woman not only as I would love
0:48:09 to be able to just have her in my network, I’m like, “Oh, to be able to bounce one or
0:48:14 two questions off her once in a while would be huge for me,” so I strategically in the
0:48:19 middle knew that because I had read her book, I was like, “I’m going to tell her about my
0:48:24 company and what I’m doing, what I’m launching,” and so in the middle of it, there was an opportunity
0:48:26 to be like, “Oh, this is amazing.
0:48:30 I can understand the struggle because right now I’m trying to raise money and blah, blah,
0:48:34 blah,” and I’d mentioned it and I’d mentioned a little bit about the company.
0:48:39 Then afterward, I had said to her, “This is huge, huge key.”
0:48:42 I had said to her, “What else can I do for you?
0:48:44 How can I get this book out more?
0:48:48 What’s the biggest thing that would help you that I could do for my audience?”
0:48:51 She tells me and I’m like, “Great, I’m going to do it.
0:48:54 What happens is people want to reciprocate.”
0:48:56 Now, did she have to reciprocate?
0:49:00 Absolutely not, but people want to, and so she was like, “Hey, is there anything I can
0:49:01 do for you?”
0:49:04 She was like, “I would love for you to just look at this deck if you want to give me
0:49:09 any critiques, if you know anyone who I could talk to about investing.”
0:49:16 The next day, she was like, “I’m going to invest and I’m sending this to 15 other women
0:49:21 and I’m letting them know about it,” and then one of the people she sent it to also invested,
0:49:22 who was a celebrity.
0:49:28 She sent a list of celebrities and copied me on it, and I was like, “Oh my God.
0:49:31 I’m so glad I asked,” because I almost didn’t.
0:49:38 I was so intimidated and I almost didn’t ask, so that’s crazy.
0:49:39 That’s amazing.
0:49:42 You ended up getting sponsors for this light pink brand.
0:49:46 Can you tell us a bit about this brand and we’ll talk about how you transitioned and
0:49:47 everything?
0:49:54 This was 2019-2020, just turned 2020, but 2019 was the initial idea that’s when I was
0:49:58 getting the deck together and the idea and doing all the things, formulation and all
0:49:59 that stuff.
0:50:04 It was a non-alcoholic rosé and a light rosé wine spritz.
0:50:10 At the time, this is when Gary Vee had just launched his wine and then canned wine, empathy
0:50:14 wines, and then also white claw had just come out.
0:50:19 Sprits were taking over and I was like, “Wait, this industry is huge.
0:50:23 I’m a wellness and fitness person, but I love wine, but I want something lighter and I also
0:50:26 want something for non-alcoholic days and they don’t have anything that’s good right
0:50:27 now.”
0:50:30 It was like, “Oh, here’s your sparkling water.”
0:50:32 There wasn’t really anything good.
0:50:36 Now it’s like freaking loaded with non-alcoholic options.
0:50:40 Direct to Consumer had started to go bananas in this world and I was like, “This is a huge
0:50:42 opportunity.”
0:50:45 I had started raising the $2 million for that.
0:50:49 Now, we did not see COVID coming.
0:50:55 What happened is it had stalled so many of what we were trying to do because the manufacturers,
0:51:01 co-packers, warehouses, nobody wanted to take on a new person because all the new people
0:51:04 were tanking because they didn’t have the runway.
0:51:05 We didn’t have the money.
0:51:10 There were so many other reasons, but they were like, “No, we’re not taking anyone new.”
0:51:14 On top of legal fees, which for alcohol, which by the way, please, if you’re going to start
0:51:19 a business, I would highly recommend looking at what has the most red tape.
0:51:21 That’s going to be the most expensive legally.
0:51:25 Just ran through so much money with legal fees and formulation and trying to hang on
0:51:30 and get out there, but had half the money left and decided a year and a half later when
0:51:33 we just could not get this thing to the finish line.
0:51:37 I had a girlfriend be like, “This happens all the time to men,” because she was in
0:51:38 that world.
0:51:41 She goes, “Why don’t you just pivot?
0:51:43 You have so many other things you could do.”
0:51:47 I had already had another idea for an upsell because I was like, “Oh man, we’re going to
0:51:52 make more money than this because I don’t know how we’re going to go out in the market
0:51:54 and get the money that we need.”
0:51:57 I started thinking of, “Oh, I love hydration.
0:52:02 I love hydration packets, but I don’t love what’s in them and I wish they did more.”
0:52:05 That was already in the back of my mind as an upsell.
0:52:10 When this happened and she gave me full permission, this was a girlfriend who literally just so
0:52:12 insanely successful.
0:52:16 It was such freedom, her going, “Just do this.
0:52:17 This is not abnormal.
0:52:20 Let me show you all the companies who have done this.”
0:52:24 Most companies that you see right now never started as the company that you see.
0:52:29 In that moment, it was such freedom because what I was feeling before that was the worst
0:52:30 anxiety of my life.
0:52:31 I felt like a failure.
0:52:35 I felt like I can’t believe I have to go into all these investors that we used all this
0:52:38 money and we still don’t have this idea that’s going to get out.
0:52:41 I feel like such an absolute failure loser.
0:52:45 Something that I had worked up to right now has just been halted.
0:52:46 I went through it.
0:52:49 I had an investor who was like, “Oh my gosh.
0:52:51 I can’t believe that I invested in this.
0:52:54 This is essentially a stupid idea.”
0:52:58 You conned me into it and I’m like, “Oh no.”
0:53:07 It was not a great experience and time for me, but I also am so clear that my soul called
0:53:13 in all of that so that I could learn and understand and be able to have this conversation literally
0:53:18 right now for someone who’s listening because they’re going through it too.
0:53:23 I just think podcasting and storytelling is the most important thing that we will ever
0:53:28 do for people to help them reach their dreams and know what it really looks like because
0:53:30 how would I have known that this is normal?
0:53:34 How would I have known that even commentary like that from people was totally normal in
0:53:39 a part of the journey because you don’t know until you talk to people who have gone through
0:53:41 what you’ve gone through.
0:53:43 Totally.
0:53:48 Service-based business is so natural and organic because you’re basically just scaling yourself.
0:53:52 When you have a product, there’s a whole slew of different issues.
0:53:56 No wonder you had to bootstrap because it’s very expensive to launch a product.
0:53:59 What were some of the things that you had to think through and what were some of the bigger
0:54:04 challenges for anybody who’s interested in launching DTC products?
0:54:08 The first one, like I said, is go find someone who’s done it before and map out the pricing
0:54:10 of everything.
0:54:13 Where could we really lose our rear ends on this?
0:54:14 Where could this go wrong?
0:54:17 What do I need to plan for?
0:54:19 Oh, okay, that’s interesting.
0:54:23 You could lose a whole lot of product in the beginning, especially if you don’t really
0:54:25 know your co-packer yet.
0:54:30 You need to understand what insurances you need because let’s say you just bought hundreds
0:54:35 of thousands of product and it’s at the warehouse and you didn’t ask about who pays for the
0:54:38 product if something goes wrong and you signed the wrong paperwork so that it’s on you and
0:54:42 now you have no money to make up that product and you can’t sell it.
0:54:47 There are so many little things that can go wrong when you’re doing a product because
0:54:55 unlike a service-based business or a digital product, it’s usually tech that can go massively
0:54:57 wrong but can be fixed.
0:55:01 If you have a launch and your tech doesn’t work, that really sucks but you can still
0:55:05 fairly recover without a ton of overhead cost.
0:55:09 In the product world, there’s a shipping company that can go wrong.
0:55:11 They can get all your packages messed up.
0:55:13 There is a co-packer that could go wrong.
0:55:15 They can completely mess up your formulation.
0:55:17 There is packaging that can go wrong.
0:55:20 They can mess up all your boxes.
0:55:24 There’s so many touch points that are not in your control.
0:55:32 You have to have a very high tolerance for risk and you also have to have a lot of grace
0:55:38 and you also have to have a backbone to be able to hold people accountable.
0:55:41 That’s been one of the hardest things is holding people accountable when something truly is
0:55:46 someone’s fault because it’s very easy for people to dance around things or say it was
0:55:50 this or it was that and they’re good people but you’re running a business at the end of
0:55:51 the day.
0:55:56 So it’s been the biggest learning lessons for me and the biggest challenge but I love
0:55:58 it so much.
0:56:01 I am obsessed with physical products now.
0:56:02 I love it.
0:56:05 Well, what is a skincare brand called and what does it do?
0:56:07 It’s a skin routine you can drink.
0:56:14 It’s called Glossy Skin and Gut and it’s a daily beauty supplement and it is all about
0:56:20 glowing from the inside out because without good gut health and good digestion, you can’t
0:56:24 have great skin because really what you’re seeing on the outside is what’s happening
0:56:28 on the inside and what you’re feeding yourself especially as we get older that starts to
0:56:32 show like what you’ve been eating through the years or how you’ve been digesting.
0:56:36 So it really is about de-blow and glow and those were the two things that I’m like, if
0:56:42 I could solve two things, I’d want to solve feeling light.
0:56:43 I want to feel light in my body.
0:56:45 I don’t want to feel bloated.
0:56:46 I want to feel really good.
0:56:51 I want to have good digestion and I want to have great skin.
0:56:56 I want to feel like I’m doing something really great for my skin especially as I get older.
0:57:02 So that’s why this product was formulated is because no matter what, if you just drink
0:57:05 water, you’re doing something good for yourself.
0:57:10 And so the fact that this is helping you drink water was what it was all about.
0:57:13 It’s like, okay, if you’re like me and you’re a toddler and you want something flavored,
0:57:18 you want to know it’s doing something really good for you.
0:57:23 Our probiotic has 30 clinical studies on it and I wanted to make sure that the ingredients
0:57:26 in there we’re going to do the thing that we wanted them to do.
0:57:30 So that’s why we went with number one, the probiotic that has studies on it and then
0:57:36 number two, having the amounts that are going to help you get the results that you want.
0:57:39 It obviously sounds like a great idea.
0:57:40 I want to try it.
0:57:42 I love skincare.
0:57:48 I’m super, super passionate about what was it like having to convince your investors
0:57:52 and externally communicate the pivot?
0:57:54 What was that like for you?
0:57:57 How did you go about doing it in an empowered way?
0:58:04 I had a moment with my husband where I had had one of the investors who was like, I want
0:58:05 out.
0:58:09 Number one, in the particular way they invested, once you invest, you can’t get out of investment.
0:58:12 That’s why investments are what they are.
0:58:13 That’s why you can win big in investments.
0:58:16 That’s why you lose big in investments.
0:58:19 So I was like, oh my gosh, what do I do?
0:58:21 It was just making me feel even worse.
0:58:29 And he’s like, um, be a leader and go tell her why she needs to be on board for this
0:58:33 next company because it’s going to take off and she’s not going to want to miss it.
0:58:35 And I was like, he is right.
0:58:38 It is my job to always paint the vision.
0:58:45 It is a leader and founders job to consistently paint the vision, even when you can’t even
0:58:47 see it.
0:58:51 And by painting that vision, I promise you it will paint it for yourself.
0:58:56 And so it was a really powerful moment for me where I really wanted to tell this person
0:58:58 off like, oh, so fun.
0:59:02 You want to ride the train when it’s doing well, but when it’s not and I need advocacy,
0:59:04 it was a painful experience.
0:59:07 And I’m so grateful for this human and that this happened because I think it was one of
0:59:10 the biggest lessons that I’ve ever experienced, ever.
0:59:13 And it reminded me, number one, they weren’t wrong.
0:59:15 Of course they’re going to feel that way.
0:59:18 Of course they’re going to feel like, was this smart?
0:59:19 Oh my gosh.
0:59:20 It was exciting.
0:59:22 And I think I was just in on the excitement.
0:59:24 Yes, that’s what it is.
0:59:29 And also repainting, hey, this is actually a better fit for you.
0:59:30 I know who you are.
0:59:32 I know who your audience is.
0:59:37 This 100% is not just a better fit for you and your audience, but for you.
0:59:39 Like it’s so much more in alignment with who you are.
0:59:43 It’s way more in alignment with where the world is, where our community is.
0:59:46 This is something that, you know, it’s at the beginning of the market.
0:59:48 People are starting to trend this way.
0:59:51 It’s getting really exciting and we can be some of the first and we can be an amazing
0:59:55 product that doesn’t have fillers in it.
1:00:00 And at the end of the call, we were both just in such a beautiful, amazing state and she
1:00:01 was excited.
1:00:10 And I was like, she was so sent to me to remind me of why I’m doing it, to rebuild my belief
1:00:15 because we don’t get to really build our belief muscle until it’s tested.
1:00:17 And that tested me with her saying those things.
1:00:19 I was like, are these true?
1:00:21 Are these things true?
1:00:25 And so in that moment, it was you get to show up as a leader even though you want to cry
1:00:27 or say something else.
1:00:31 And then it was the greatest gift that I could have ever gotten.
1:00:36 And as you’re telling me stories, it’s so obvious that so many people have helped you
1:00:42 along the way and you’ve also helped other people on your journey.
1:00:46 And I know you have a book that is called A Tribe Called Bliss.
1:00:50 Can you talk to us about what a bliss tribe is?
1:00:52 At the time, I was doing an event called The Bliss Project.
1:00:58 It was a three-day event about empowering yourself and just creating a life that you
1:00:59 love.
1:01:05 And essentially in the book, I define bliss as more of a place that you create for yourself.
1:01:08 It’s not external, it’s all internal.
1:01:12 It’s what you decide in your life you can experience bliss right now.
1:01:15 And in order to create and build a life that you want even more, I’m not saying you shouldn’t
1:01:21 have the things or have it all because I do believe you should, but you have to find that
1:01:22 place within yourself.
1:01:26 And so the book was based off of the event because I put a lot of the exercises that
1:01:30 we did in the event into the book.
1:01:36 And the book is about breaking through superficial relationships and finding your purpose.
1:01:39 And that’s what the event essentially was about too because we broke everyone out.
1:01:45 It was so many group exercises and I was just for watching these women transform, finding
1:01:49 and connecting to these other groups of like-minded women.
1:01:53 And so the book essentially is the Four Agreements book that I absolutely love.
1:01:56 That’s the Four Agreements to Having a Great Life.
1:02:01 I think that there’s agreements to having great relationships and I think your relationships
1:02:02 are your life.
1:02:06 You can’t only have a great life without great relationships because even if you’re doing
1:02:11 okay alone, you eventually feel so lonely and isolated that it’s painful.
1:02:15 And we know that now loneliness, all the studies is worse than smoking.
1:02:17 It’ll kill you faster than smoking.
1:02:18 We need relationships.
1:02:21 I think our lives are defined by relationships, but I also think that there’s agreements
1:02:22 to relationships.
1:02:28 So in the book, it goes over the seven agreements of relationships and it’s essentially really
1:02:33 self-work that you can do within other relationships as well.
1:02:38 And being an entrepreneur is one of the loneliest career journeys that you can have and entrepreneurs
1:02:43 really experience a lot of loneliness and depression because of that loneliness.
1:02:46 And you’re somebody who often brings entrepreneurs together.
1:02:53 I would say another superpower that you have is you’re like the queen of live events, especially
1:02:55 in this female entrepreneurship space.
1:02:59 I’d love for you to talk to us about why you love putting on these events and also what
1:03:02 is the business opportunity here?
1:03:07 What’s the business model of events for people who are interested in starting that?
1:03:11 You really want to know why you’re doing events because they can be lucrative, but they’re
1:03:17 typically barely expensive if you’re just looking at this event, right?
1:03:20 You have to know your intention of the event.
1:03:23 I love live events because my life changed at them.
1:03:26 I told you I listen to podcasts and then when my life really changed, it was when I joined
1:03:27 a mastermind.
1:03:34 I initially had gone to an event called Landmark Forum that was my very, very, very first event
1:03:35 ever that changed my life.
1:03:37 Then I went to personal development events.
1:03:40 Then I went to Tony Robbins events multiple times.
1:03:45 Then I joined Jack Canfield events for huge commitments, like events that were like three
1:03:51 weeks spread throughout the year, very intensive events.
1:03:54 I think that they are the quickest way to change your life and to build your network.
1:03:56 Your network has all of your answers.
1:03:59 Like I said, the friend who was like, “Hey, why don’t you just pivot?”
1:04:04 That was by way of someone else who was a part of my network.
1:04:10 We get these big life-changing answers or the investor who felt challenging to me.
1:04:14 That was a life-changing event that really turned me into someone who can handle a lot.
1:04:19 These are all people that came by way of events or networks or someone else.
1:04:23 I believe in them more than I can possibly tell you because I see it.
1:04:25 We put them on.
1:04:29 I get to hear the crazy transformations that happen even if it’s not right away.
1:04:30 It’s two years down the road.
1:04:35 Oh my God, this person that I met at the event, they just became an investor or a business
1:04:36 partner.
1:04:37 It’s crazy.
1:04:39 It’s the long game.
1:04:40 That’s why I’m passionate about events.
1:04:46 The event model is typically either massive brand awareness because you’re not going to
1:04:50 make a whole lot of money off of an event unless you’re really bare bonesing it.
1:04:55 Then that’s tough because people don’t love a bare bones event necessarily, but it’s going
1:05:01 to be selling off the back end or making sure that you, if that’s going to be your top of
1:05:09 funnel brand awareness, that you are utilizing that content from the event or you’re utilizing
1:05:12 something from there to sell something else.
1:05:13 That makes a lot of sense.
1:05:17 Then maybe getting sponsors for your event if it’s big enough.
1:05:24 Sponsors for sure can be a great way for events, but even with sponsors, I find you can make
1:05:28 money from it, but it’s not going to be life changing money compared to what it costs to
1:05:29 run an event.
1:05:30 Got it.
1:05:33 You’re doing it a lot for just awareness, for content.
1:05:34 That’s so interesting.
1:05:35 It depends.
1:05:38 If it’s like a mastermind event, that’s very different.
1:05:41 That’s a great event to monetize.
1:05:44 Got it because that’s a lot more like high ticket, less people.
1:05:48 That makes a lot of sense, but still very valuable for the people that are in it.
1:05:52 I’m actually considering to join some entrepreneurship masterminds.
1:05:58 I’m going to your girlfriends in business event in September, which I’m so excited about.
1:06:01 Is that something that people can sign up for or how does it work?
1:06:03 I think we have like three tickets left.
1:06:04 Okay.
1:06:05 Nevermind.
1:06:06 Sorry.
1:06:07 I mean, maybe it’ll still be there.
1:06:08 You never know.
1:06:11 It’s girlfriendsandbusiness.com, but you can check it out at the website.
1:06:12 Amazing.
1:06:13 Yeah.
1:06:14 Maybe the next time, guys, if you didn’t get to make it.
1:06:15 Lori, this was such an awesome conversation.
1:06:20 I really wanted to just dig deep on your personal story and get all the lessons that we could
1:06:23 learn from you creating all these different businesses and communities.
1:06:24 Thank you so much for sharing.
1:06:28 I end my show with two questions that I ask all my guests.
1:06:32 What is one actionable thing our young and profitors can do today to become more profitable
1:06:34 tomorrow?
1:06:37 Join something where people are a bit ahead of you.
1:06:44 So I love that quote about get in the rooms where your dreams are people’s realities.
1:06:46 That’s been the thing that has changed the most for me.
1:06:49 You can listen to all the podcasts, they’re going to change your life, but when you’re
1:06:53 ready to take the leap and really accelerate, get in a room with those people.
1:06:54 So good.
1:06:56 And what is your secret to profiting in life?
1:06:58 This is such a good question.
1:07:06 My secret to profiting in life is to really work on yourself, because, again, everything
1:07:12 is going to come through relationships and it takes an extreme level of awareness and
1:07:17 grace and forgiveness in order to work through all of the relationships that you are going
1:07:21 to have on your way to your goals in business.
1:07:22 I love that.
1:07:24 Lori, where can everybody find you and everything that you do?
1:07:30 Well, the main thing for me right now is Glossy, and that is the skin routine you can drink.
1:07:36 And you can go to getglossy, G-E-T-G-L-O-C-I dot com, and you can go and check it out
1:07:37 there.
1:07:38 Amazing.
1:07:39 We’ll put that link in the show notes.
1:07:42 Lori, thank you so much for joining us on Young and Profiting Podcast.
1:07:43 Thank you for having me.
1:07:48 This was so much fun.
1:07:52 I was so thrilled to talk with Lori and hear more about her story.
1:07:55 There are so many lessons to draw from her experiences.
1:08:00 First, as I’ve said before, I think the easiest way to launch yourself as an entrepreneur is
1:08:02 to scale something you’re already good at.
1:08:07 Lori started in fitness, and she came to know that world inside and out.
1:08:11 And because she knew that community so well, she saw exactly where she could go next.
1:08:16 Lori knew that the people she was training really wanted more from life, and from her.
1:08:18 Then just better apps.
1:08:19 They wanted higher purpose.
1:08:24 Many felt trapped in their lives and relationships, and Lori found that she could help them.
1:08:28 And then after a while, Lori no longer identified as a trainer who helped people with their
1:08:33 fitness journey, but rather as a coach helping others with their larger life journeys.
1:08:36 And pretty soon, she could scale that into a huge business as well.
1:08:41 I also enjoyed what Lori had to say about the process of becoming a true expert.
1:08:45 Because simply, there’s no better teacher than becoming a teacher yourself.
1:08:49 As Lori took her clients step by step through their fitness routines and journeys, observing
1:08:53 everything at a granular level, she too improved.
1:08:57 I know I’ve experienced that same transformation from the courses that I’ve taught over
1:08:58 the years.
1:09:03 Finally, I loved that last quote that Lori shared, “Get in the rooms where your dreams
1:09:05 are other people’s realities.
1:09:08 That’s so true that hits so hard.”
1:09:11 If you haven’t already, get out and join a community where others are already living
1:09:13 your dream.
1:09:16 Get in that room.
1:09:18 Thanks for listening to this episode of Young and Profiting.
1:09:21 I hope you enjoyed being in this room with me and Lori Harder.
1:09:25 And if you listened, learned, and profited from this conversation, please share this
1:09:28 episode with your friends and family.
1:09:31 And if you did enjoy this show and you learned something, then drop us a five star review
1:09:36 on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen to your podcasts.
1:09:39 If you’d like to watch your podcast as videos, you can find us on YouTube.
1:09:43 You can also find me on Instagram @yappithala, or LinkedIn by searching my name.
1:09:44 It’s @halataha.
1:09:48 I also got to say thank you so much to my incredible YAP team.
1:09:49 You guys are awesome.
1:09:53 This is your host, @halataha, aka the podcast princess, signing off.
1:09:57 [MUSIC PLAYING]
1:10:01 Thanks for listening to this episode of Young and Profiting.
1:10:05 I hope you enjoyed being in this room with me and Lori Harder.
1:10:09 I hope you enjoyed being in this room with me and Lori Harder.