Carolina Reis Oliveira & Alessandra Zonari | OneSkin: Aging (#56)

0:00:05 With this increase in awareness about well-being, eventually you need to take care of your skin.
0:00:11 Obviously about how you look and how you feel, but also how your skin impacts your overall health.
0:00:16 When we start to see the things that I’m starting to see now in my 40s, you know little creases in
0:00:20 the neck and around the eyes, like what’s the degradation that’s happening?
0:00:26 Basically what’s happening is this accumulation of damage in our cells, in the skin cells,
0:00:32 so they stop producing collagen, for example, and also what is related is the accumulation of
0:00:37 senescent cells, also called zombie cells, and the inflammation that they secret induces the cells
0:00:44 around to age faster. It’s a very complex process that’s happening on our body and a lot of it,
0:00:51 it’s influenced by lifestyle choices. Sugar can bind to the proteins on the skin and can create
0:00:58 advanced end glycan products. The collagen that’s on the skin when it’s biting to sugar,
0:01:06 it gets more stiff and can also cause… What are some common skincare myths and misconceptions
0:01:08 that you’d like to correct that are out there today?
0:01:19 So if you’re like me and I’m sure you are, you’re buying almost everything you buy online,
0:01:26 like 95% of the stuff I buy is now online. Mostly big websites, every once in a while a smaller
0:01:32 website, but sure enough, at least once or twice a year, my personal data gets leaked out there.
0:01:36 That means name, address, phone number, it can be social, it can be date of birth, it can be a whole
0:01:42 slew of different things, and this data, once it’s been hacked and released, it’s being resold by
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0:03:06 URL JoinDeleteMe.com/KevinRose. Trivia of the day, what does MMA fighter Connor McGregor,
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0:04:44 plunge.com/KevinRose. Hey everyone, Kevin Rose here. Just a quick little introduction to this show.
0:04:50 This show is all about skin health. I wanted to have a couple experts on the show to talk about
0:04:54 all of the different things that have been pitched out there to be healthy for your skin,
0:04:59 what’s BS, what’s not, what works, what’s been scientifically proven. And so I’m really thrilled
0:05:03 to get into this today. Obviously it should come as no surprise. I’m in my late 40s. I’m starting
0:05:08 to care more and more about skin health. Unfortunately, and this is something I wish I could go back and
0:05:14 tell my 20-year-old or 30-year-old self, now is the time. Meaning back then was the time to start
0:05:19 really digging into and caring about skin health because it’s a cumulative thing. It adds up over
0:05:24 time and damage is not done in days, weeks, or months, but it’s done over several years.
0:05:30 And today I want to have a couple experts on to talk about all of this. Now, one of the things I
0:05:37 will say is that the two co-founders that I’m having on today of OneSkin, they’re both PhDs in
0:05:42 their field. They’re both insanely brilliant. They do run a skincare company called OneSkin.
0:05:46 This is not sponsored. This is not paid for. That was very important to me. And I also want to have
0:05:51 credible people on the show. So let me tell you a little bit about how I found out about OneSkin.
0:05:56 So for me, as someone that, you know, I don’t have my PhD, I’m not here to give you any type of
0:06:00 health-related advice, but what I’m here to do is interview actual experts that know what they’re
0:06:05 talking about. And so I pay attention to signal. I’m always looking for who are the scientists,
0:06:09 who are the trusted resources that are talking about this stuff. And when I see multiple pattern
0:06:14 matches, multiple people saying the same thing, I pay attention. So in this particular case,
0:06:20 I follow Dr. David Sinclair, an insanely well-known, highly respected longevity expert from
0:06:27 Harvard. Dr. Sinclair first was mentioning the research that these two women were doing in a
0:06:31 podcast. And it wasn’t a paid podcast. He just mentioned it as being something to pay attention
0:06:37 to. Later, I would say probably about a month or so later, I saw Dr. Aronda Patrick on her podcast
0:06:42 mention the peptides that these women are researching. So I love this company. It’s four
0:06:50 female founders, all with PhDs. PhDs in skin regeneration, stem cell biology, immunology,
0:06:55 and bioinformatics. They’re absolute experts in their field. We cover a whole slew of different
0:06:59 supplements and skincare products. And I think there’s a lot to take away from this episode.
0:07:04 Let’s take a look. Thank you both for joining me. Thanks for having us, Kathy. We’re very excited
0:07:10 for this conversation. It’s really important. It’s funny. It’s a very strange time in that
0:07:17 two, three years ago, if I’d scroll Instagram, I wouldn’t see anything about men’s skincare
0:07:21 health. There was nothing. Yeah. And then Dwayne Johnson, The Rock just came out with his own
0:07:26 line of skincare. There’s another ad that I keep getting pitched that is about men’s skincare.
0:07:33 Finally, I feel like guys are starting to care. I know I’m like putting guys in a big bucket here,
0:07:38 but it seems like that’s starting to become more of a thing. Would you all agree with that?
0:07:44 Yeah, definitely. I think with this increase in awareness about well-being, eventually you
0:07:49 needed to take care of your skin, right? And it’s obviously about how you look and how you feel,
0:07:59 but also how your skin health impacts your overall health. So I think men are becoming less, I would
0:08:06 say, how can I say, less scared of start using skincare products. It’s not like a girl thing
0:08:12 anymore, especially with the growth of longevity. And we’re talking about the possibility of living
0:08:20 120 years, 150. How do you want to look when you’re as old as 100 years old? So I think all
0:08:26 this conversation, as Carol was saying around wellness, it’s just like bringing more awareness
0:08:33 to the guys to start, okay, I want to look good. I also want a strong skin. I want to feel confident.
0:08:41 So that’s all leading to this increase on new skincare brands, but also interest of men
0:08:49 to skincare. Yeah, and I think one of the other points is that before men usually were skeptical
0:08:56 about these products, they say, oh, this is all BS and they don’t work. So I think having more
0:09:03 brands that are science-backed that can really prove how the product works, this is getting the
0:09:09 attraction of men and they say, okay, this can actually be beneficial for my skin. So I will
0:09:14 invest on this. Why not? They don’t want anything that’s super complicated in general, right? Like
0:09:19 you don’t have too much time. But I think if it’s something simple, but that you can feel
0:09:25 better about your skin, I think a lot of men are buying to it. Yeah, part of the reason I really
0:09:28 wanted to have you both on is one, I think you’ve created a really innovative product that we can
0:09:33 get into. And obviously, we don’t want to make this as not a paid podcast in any way. So we want
0:09:42 to cover a broad range of different issues around skin, but you’re both PhDs. You’re not just marketers,
0:09:47 you’re like legit scientists doing real science here on skin aging, which I think is really cool.
0:09:54 I’d love to start at the beginning, which is for me, I’m of the generation that sadly, SPF,
0:10:00 when I was younger, was like optional. It’s like one of those things where parents were like, well,
0:10:05 if you don’t get too burned, or you just get a little bit of blisters, it’s okay. And now it’s
0:10:13 like, I’m lathering my kids. So when do we need to start caring about our skin? What age? And then
0:10:20 when we start to see the things that I’m starting to see now in my 40s, which is little creases in the
0:10:25 neck and around the eyes, like in the center of the, what’s happening? What is actually,
0:10:31 what’s the degradation that’s happening? Yeah. So aging is basically an accumulation of damage
0:10:38 over time. So since we’re born, we start aging. And obviously, we start to notice the signs of aging
0:10:44 when we’re like, you know, late 20s, maybe 30s, it varies for each person and it varies based on your
0:10:50 lifestyle. If you’re being exposed to too much sun too early. But basically what’s happening is this
0:10:57 accumulation of damage in our cells, in the skin cells. So some skin cells are so damaged that they
0:11:03 stop functioning well. So they stop producing collagen, for example. That’s one of the main
0:11:09 proteins that maintain the skin firmness. And if you have less collagen, you are going to see signs
0:11:16 of sagging, wrinkle. And also what it’s related with this accumulation of damage is the accumulation
0:11:21 of sun cells, also called like zombie cells. And the problem of those cells is that they secret
0:11:28 inflammation. And the inflammation that they secret induces the cells around to age faster.
0:11:35 So we like to compare them with rotten apple in a bunch. So if you have one like senescent cells,
0:11:41 that cell is inducing the healthy cells around to age faster. So what we want to do is try to
0:11:48 avoid the buildup of those zombie cells in the skin. Because if you have less inflammation,
0:11:54 you can allow the healthy cells to replicate, to produce collagen, it can keep your skin at that
0:12:01 younger and healthy state. Is it avoiding buildup or is it killing them off? It’s both. It’s definitely
0:12:07 more challenging to kill them off because you needed to be very specific in targeting only
0:12:14 the senescent cells and not the healthy cells. And most of the alternatives that are in the
0:12:19 research phase right now, they are not as specific so they can cause some toxicity.
0:12:26 So there are options that instead of like killing them off, you can basically prevent them of releasing
0:12:34 those inflammatory factors that cause that spread of aging. So imagine that you put that bad apple
0:12:40 in a plastic bag so it’s not spreading that inflammation anymore. So you preserve the
0:12:46 healthy cells around. And what happens when you do that is that your own body can clear them off
0:12:53 because our bodies do that naturally. We lose this ability of clearing them off when we get
0:13:00 old because we accumulate so many of them and our immune system gets deficient. So there is a way
0:13:06 that we can restart this process and your body can continue to do its work. One of the things
0:13:11 scientists that I follow is the work of Dr. Walter Longo out of UCSD. He’s more on the
0:13:17 fasting side of things. And so using prolonged fasting to clear some of these senescent cells
0:13:23 because they simply are deprived of nutrients and they’re already dysfunctional to begin with.
0:13:26 And then the idea is that you deprive them enough and because they’re dysfunctional,
0:13:33 they’ll die off. And so they’ve had some really good research and a friend of mine was unfortunate
0:13:37 enough to come down with stage 4 cancer. And in conjunction with his chemotherapy was a fasting
0:13:44 regimen as well, which was supposed to help that process along. The skin is our largest organ,
0:13:49 right? Does fasting help with clearing any of these cells in the skin? It does. It definitely helps
0:13:56 with the autophagy. So when you’re in fasting, you’re basically in this process of preserving
0:14:02 energy. So what your body does is basically to recycle the cells and proteins that are not
0:14:08 functioning well. And in this case, they basically recycle those senescent cells or clear them off
0:14:15 to have more energy to build the new skin cells. The thing that’s confusing to me about this is that
0:14:18 when I think about a wrinkle that I have, right? Like the one in the center of my head, okay,
0:14:24 I get that there’s cells that are unhealthy, but when they die off as they naturally will,
0:14:29 what is a good, healthy, new, like fresh young cell coming to the mix and fix that?
0:14:36 Why is there always, it’s a continual thing of like aged cells? So there are changes that are
0:14:42 happening throughout the aging process that is regulating which genes are being expressed
0:14:50 in our cells. So these are epigenetic changes and one of them is DNA methylation. So changes on the
0:14:58 DNA methylation can lead to different gene expression. And we analyze 500 different samples,
0:15:04 skin samples, and look to the DNA methylation profile of those samples. And we observed that
0:15:12 especially around 30 years old, there’s a drift on the epigenetic changes. So there’s some kind of
0:15:19 change on the methylation profile that’s making the cells to express different genes that sometimes
0:15:26 leading to collagen breakdown. It’s accelerating on sets of cellular senescence. It’s accelerating
0:15:33 inflammation. So it’s a very complex process that’s happening on our body. And a lot of it,
0:15:40 it’s influenced by lifestyle choices. So when I say that around 30 years old, you have this drift
0:15:48 on these epigenetic markers, this can be different from one person to other, depending on some lifestyle
0:15:53 choices or exposure that this person has. When you say lifestyle exposure, I mean,
0:15:58 the first thing pops in my head is always sun. Is that the number one offender here? And if you
0:16:03 had to stack rank them based on biggest offenders that are going to damage your skin over time,
0:16:10 sun’s going to be number one. It counts for 90% of our skin aging. Really crap. And sometimes it’s
0:16:17 accumulating as well. Sometimes you are young and you are exposing yourself to a lot of sun and your
0:16:22 skin is still repairing super well, but the damage starts to accumulate. And then that’s why when
0:16:29 you turn 40, you are not being able to repair as well as before because you already accumulated
0:16:35 damage from years before. I see. Okay. So it’s a cumulative thing that you just can’t see until
0:16:42 there’s a certain tipping point. Yes. And then you can’t reverse as fast. As you said, if you
0:16:48 clear off one senescent cells, there is a lot of others there that you still need to continue to
0:16:54 clear. So basically, you have accumulated so much damage over time that it’s going to take a while
0:17:01 for you to reverse those signs of aging. But it is possible. Obviously, it’s easier to prevent
0:17:08 and then reverse. But that’s why we see benefits in clinical studies because we see that by targeting
0:17:14 some of those underlying mechanisms of aging, you can actually change the makeup of the skin
0:17:21 and lead to a better appearance, smoother skin. But it’s nothing, something that happens overnight.
0:17:28 If it happened overnight, there’d be your concerns. Yeah. Exactly. It can be dangerous
0:17:32 for you. It’s just like a makeup thing that if you wash your face next day. Right. Yeah. I mean,
0:17:36 if you’re changing that many cells that fast, I’d be like, “Hmm, are these dividing the right way?
0:17:42 What’s going on here?” One of the things about the sun that has been said, the positives, it’s the
0:17:47 vitamin D creator largely, right? It’s a sunshine that creates vitamin D in our skin. It’s very
0:17:51 important, more or less, they call it vitamin D. It’s more of a hormone than it is a vitamin.
0:17:56 A ton of positive benefit from keeping your vitamin D levels in check. How do you strike that balance?
0:18:04 Yeah. I think to me, obviously, we know that you need the sun and you need the sun at a higher
0:18:10 index rate to produce vitamin D. That means that early morning sun is not going to produce vitamin D.
0:18:17 Right. So you need to be in the sun like unknown. I think when I put on a scale like the benefits of
0:18:24 producing vitamin D from the sun and the potential risks that sun damage can cause, including skin
0:18:33 cancer, pigmentation, aging, I would rather protect my skin with sunscreen and supplement
0:18:39 vitamin D with other sources. Also, because even if you apply sunskin, it’s really hard if you’re
0:18:44 in the sun the whole day that you are completely blocked all sun, right? So you can still get some
0:18:50 production from the sun, I think, but obviously, you can supplement with your diet and other
0:18:57 vitamin D supplements. So to me, I would not take the risk of getting some potential skin
0:19:02 cancer or damage if I have other sources to supplement vitamin D. That makes sense.
0:19:07 And I love being in the sun. So I know if I’m on the beach, if I’m exercising on the sun, if I’m
0:19:14 playing volleyball for the whole day, I’ll get like 10 or I’ll see that I’m absorbing sunlight. So
0:19:20 I’ll be producing some vitamin D. And the other important thing is basically to track, like really
0:19:25 do like labs frequently to see how are levels. Yes. And then make sure if you need that just
0:19:31 supplementing especially in the winter. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. All right. Just a quick plug for my
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0:20:08 you can sign up for this over at KevinRose.com. Join 115,000 other readers. KevinRose.com.
0:20:13 You’ll find the little newsletter link there and sign up today. So we talked about sun being the
0:20:18 number one offender. What would be your if we had to give you five to people out there? What
0:20:24 are some other big offenders for skin damage? One other big offender is sugar. So sugar can bind
0:20:32 to the proteins on the skin and can create it’s called advanced end glycan products. And it can
0:20:39 really like the collagen that’s on the skin when it’s biting to sugar. It gets more stiff. So it
0:20:46 kind of like change the elasticity of the skin and can also cause inflammation. So excess of
0:20:53 processed food and full of sugar cannot actually damage your skin as well. So it’s something that
0:21:00 a lot of times people don’t think about. But there’s a big correlation with the sugar damaging your
0:21:08 skin as well. Is that just refined sugar? Is that fructose as well? Is it you think it? It’s fructose
0:21:15 as well can in high volumes, high intake fructose glucose at the end. They break down in sugars that
0:21:21 can bind on collagen proteins in the skin as well. Do you have any sense of how much you have to
0:21:28 consume for that to be the case? It’s hard to say. I think in the end we’re talking about having a
0:21:34 balanced diet, right? So obviously if you eat some fruits and I mean you can always choose berries
0:21:41 instead of fruits that are in high fructose grapes or banana. And in the end obviously you are not
0:21:46 eating a lot of processed sugar every day. You’re not eating a lot of like fat that can be very
0:21:54 inflammatory as well. So it’s hard to say one specific amount is mainly that overall lifestyle
0:22:01 that you should avoid refined sugar on a day to day. This is fascinating because if you think about
0:22:08 it and correct me if I’m wrong here, when I go to a health food store and they sell a smoothie,
0:22:14 it’s going to be packed with sugar like typically 20 to 30 grams of sugar and that’s through various
0:22:18 sources. A lot of it is if you put a cup of orange juice into anything you get a lot of
0:22:23 condensed fructose, right? And then they’ll say well we’re going to add some collagen powder in
0:22:29 as well, right? And it’s like net net that’s a negative for your skin, right? It has to be, right?
0:22:36 Yeah, I would say that because it’s going to be still processed in your stomach, right? So you’re
0:22:41 going to use some of that sugar. For example, if you just exercise, you’re going to, you know,
0:22:46 be the muscle. But if you’re sedentary. Yeah, yeah. And you have the collagen that’s going to be
0:22:51 broken down in peptide and you’re going to use some of those peptides to build more collagen
0:22:58 in your skin. So it obviously if you are accumulating that sugar if you’re not using all of it,
0:23:04 then it can be detrimental. What’s detrimental is the spike of glucose as well on your blood.
0:23:08 Oh, interesting. Yeah. Sometimes, of course, we still need sugar, like it’s still something
0:23:15 important for us as a nutritional fact. But if you, for instance, is very bad to eat a sweet
0:23:21 dessert on an empty stomach because you will spike too much the glucose and that excess of
0:23:27 glucose at that time can go to the wrong direction. But when you’re having like a sugar, even when it’s
0:23:34 combined with other like fibers and proteins as well, you don’t have that big spike of glucose
0:23:41 in your blood, then you’re not damaging your body. So it’s the spike of glucose that can damage more
0:23:45 your skin and other parts of your body as well. That’s such a good point because when you add the
0:23:52 collagen peptides, you are reducing the spike. If you add good fat, like avocado, yeah, exactly,
0:23:56 then you’re reducing the spike. Yeah, because it’s taking it longer to digest in your body to
0:24:01 break down those fats. And so you’re not getting that, oh, right away, that huge hit. Yeah. Anyone
0:24:05 that’s, I highly recommend, I think Levels Health does a good job at this, where they’ll give you
0:24:09 a continuous glucose monitor away for where for a short period of time. Yeah. And you’ll just be
0:24:15 blown away by what spicy versus what doesn’t. Yeah. Yeah, it’s like rice is a huge offender for me.
0:24:20 Even like brown rice, I’m through the roof. And I would have never guessed that had I known,
0:24:26 actually worn one of those devices. So that’s a good hack. One of the things, well, we got to two,
0:24:30 are there any more that you think are worth covering as a big dietary offenders or things that
0:24:35 we’re doing? It’s also, yeah, hydration is super important for the skin. So keeping
0:24:40 in mind that you’re consuming enough water throughout the day is something that will be
0:24:46 important not only for your skin, but the function of your body, overall body. And I don’t know,
0:24:53 can you think about something else here? Yeah, I would say obviously sleep interferes a lot, stress.
0:24:59 Everything that you think in your lifestyle that I’m going to increase inflammation is going to
0:25:06 impact your skin. You’re going to say alcohol. I love a good glass of champagne. Yeah. I mean,
0:25:12 alcohol in the end is sugar. So it’s all about. I need dry. Okay. That’s already better. Yeah.
0:25:18 Everything in life at the end, we need to find that balance. Yeah. We cannot. It will be so hard
0:25:24 if you say, don’t eat sugar, don’t drink alcohol. Yeah. We need to be realistic and adapt as well.
0:25:30 So I mean, a glass of wine, like if you don’t drink like three bottles of wine every day. Yeah,
0:25:36 someday. One of the things that I think is pretty sound science behind it, at least in the
0:25:40 colleagues that I talked to that are actual scientists, like my wife, is collagen, is collagen
0:25:46 supplementation. The thing that’s confusing to me is that when I go to any of these stores where
0:25:51 you look online, there’s like collagen type one, type two, type three, like goes all the way down
0:25:57 the chain. What are your thoughts on collagen in general, supplementing it? And then also,
0:26:00 is there certain types that stand out as being better for the skin than others?
0:26:08 So collagen is a protein that acts as a structural support to our skin and other organs in our body.
0:26:14 Bone, ligaments, cartilage, they are very like high in collagen. As you said, we have different types
0:26:21 of collagen. Collagen type one is the most abundant in our whole body. So it’s very abundant on the
0:26:28 skin, but also on bone and cartilage and other tissues as well. Collagen type two is more specific
0:26:34 for cartilage. So the collagen is giving like the elasticity and the strength for the tissues.
0:26:38 That’s why like cartilage has a different elasticity from the skin because the type
0:26:45 of collagen is different in these two tissues. So collagen one and three, they are the main
0:26:51 build blocks of the skin. So if you’re looking for supplement, these two types are like the most
0:26:59 related to skin. Collagen two is more related to cartilage, so for joint health. Right. So if you’re
0:27:03 jogger and you’re experiencing some joint pain, that might be the one you go for. But one important
0:27:07 thing to talk about when you are ingesting collagen, a lot of people think that, okay,
0:27:13 the collagen that I’m eating, it’s going to my skin. And it’s not exactly that the mechanism
0:27:18 because when collagen is a big protein and when you ingest, it will be cleaved in your
0:27:25 stomach into small peptides. And this will go through your bloodstream. And because you have so
0:27:31 many other organs that also use collagen, this will be distributed. It’s not that all that supplement
0:27:37 is going to your skin. So it can have benefits on your skin, can have general benefits because
0:27:43 you’re adding a protein source, amino acid source, that’s a good amino acid source for your body.
0:27:48 But not always, it will be like a straight relation that, okay, this that I ingested,
0:27:54 now it’s going to my skin and having this right correlation. Do you both take collagen? Because
0:27:59 I’ve seen so many varying also, the people say, hey, two and a half grams is where you need to be.
0:28:04 And so I’ll take these gummies and they’re the good brand, I think. And so I take them and that’s
0:28:10 where I’m at. But I have some other people that are like 10 or 15 grams per day is where we need
0:28:16 to be. Do you have an opinion on that? In my case, I kind of like, I take my dieticide support with
0:28:22 a nutritionist, and I have that amount of protein, total protein that I need to have per day. And
0:28:28 sometimes it has like a percentage of that’s coming from collagen, it varies, but it’s
0:28:34 more being sure that I’m having enough protein throughout the whole day can come from collagen
0:28:39 source or other sources as well. How is a bone broth for because I know that’s pretty high in
0:28:45 collagen. Is that the type that we want? That’s more for type two. Okay, yeah. Okay, so but it’s
0:28:55 tasty as hell. And the bone also has collagen type one, so it’s a mix there as well. Yeah, yeah.
0:29:00 Okay, I would love to go down my list of things. Yeah. Well, I got to say, first of all, that the
0:29:06 skincare industry is is so confusing to me in that like, when I started first on this journey
0:29:10 of trying to figure, okay, what should my regimen look like going into my 40s? Because the first
0:29:15 time I started to care about my skin, I go to the websites and none of them are catered towards
0:29:18 men really. And so it was really difficult for me to find my way. And then there’s like
0:29:25 serums and there’s like, I things and there’s toners and there’s and I’m like, this is
0:29:32 witchcraft. There’s like so many potions to consider. I know. I can’t figure this all out.
0:29:36 I asked my wife, I’m like, do I put a serum on first and then a thing? And it’s just like so
0:29:42 confusing. But I cut all that crap out. It’s okay. What does the science actually say? And what is
0:29:49 important? Retinol comes up a lot as being a good thing. I’m just now because I have some dark spots
0:29:55 from sun damage. I just now started adding a low dose of retinol to my regimen because I noticed
0:30:00 it drives my skin out real fast. And you have to put a SPF on it right afterwards. Do you think
0:30:07 retinol is considered something that people, I mean, it does work, right? Generally speaking?
0:30:13 Yes. So the way that retinol works and retinol is the derivative of vitamin A. And there are
0:30:18 different types of retinol or forms of retinol. So if you apply the retinol, it’s going to be
0:30:25 converted in retinoic acid inside your skin. And this retinoic acid binds into several receptors
0:30:31 that will induce cell renewal. So basically, what you’re inducing is a process that you are
0:30:37 peeling off the upper layers of your skin. Some more drastic, some more mild, depending on the
0:30:42 strength of your retinol. Retinol is stronger. Maybe the retinol that you’re using is a little
0:30:48 more mild. This is like 0.3 or something. They do it in different doses. And if it’s retinol or
0:30:54 not retinoic acid, it is the most mild version. So by inducing this cell renewal, what you’re
0:31:00 doing is basically growing a fresher skin. So that’s why when you have pigments, these pigments
0:31:05 that are spots of melanin, it’s based on the epidermal layer. So in the epidermal layer,
0:31:10 you have two main cell types. That’s keratinocytes, the melanocytes. The melanocytes produce the
0:31:16 pigment. So by basically stripping the upper layers of your skin and growing a new one, you can
0:31:24 hopefully grow one that’s more homogeneous and even in terms of pigment. But if you have underlying
0:31:29 issues, you can still have that pigment, even if you’re growing a new one, or this is just a
0:31:33 temporary effect. What’s underlying issues? Like what would that be? Inflammation. Inflammation is
0:31:39 one of the main causes of dysregulation in melanin deposition. Okay. So that’s why it comes back.
0:31:44 Yeah. Because I’ve seen like a little, I had this little tiny spot on my hand right here and I put
0:31:49 some of that on there and it got lighter. I was like, “Oh, hell yeah. I don’t think I fixed that.”
0:31:53 And then it came back like a month later. I’m like, “What the hell?” I thought I repaired it.
0:31:58 But it’s not really a repair. It seems like a temporary thing.
0:32:03 Yeah. Yeah. It’s just because you are shedding some of those skin layers and then you are basically
0:32:08 building up new ones. But again, if you have that underlying issue, you’re going to still have that.
0:32:14 So trying to fix the underlying issue is the best approach. It’s also the hardest,
0:32:21 but that you can see results that can last long term. Yeah. A lot of sites that I look at, well,
0:32:27 I mean, these products are insanely expensive to begin with, but they’ll have a $150 little
0:32:32 tiny bottle of vitamin C. Yeah. And I’m like, “Okay, I understand vitamin C. I use it when I’m sick.
0:32:38 I try to get the… Well, I mean, I think I get the liposomal version. I want the most bioavailability.
0:32:46 Like I’m that deep into it. But topically, is there data to support actually putting it on the skin?
0:32:53 Yeah. So the vitamin C is an antioxidant. So it’s like clearing the free radicals and protecting
0:33:01 the skin. There is data that vitamin C helps your skin health, but vitamin C is a very tricky molecule.
0:33:06 It’s not a stable molecule. I’ve heard it’s not stable. Yeah. So one of the main problems, like
0:33:11 with a lot of products, is that they contain the wrong combination in the formula to preserve
0:33:18 that vitamin C. For instance, vitamin C is very light sensitive. So if you see vitamin C on a
0:33:25 flask that you can go through light, I mean, I would be a little bit skeptical. It’s interesting.
0:33:28 I bought one of the more expensive ones. And one of the things I noticed is it was a total
0:33:32 blacked out like bottle. It wouldn’t show you like you can’t even see it at all. Yeah.
0:33:39 And it’s hard for the consumer to know, okay, is this vitamin C a good one or a bad one?
0:33:44 There are some types, then you need to go on the ingredient list. There are some types when it’s
0:33:50 written L, ascorbic acid, if I’m not wrong, right, Carol? That’s like a better version of the vitamin C.
0:33:56 There are more stable versions of vitamin C. And you can see if the vitamin C is oxidizing because
0:34:02 it changes its color, it gets a little more brown. Oh, interesting. So it should be more like a
0:34:08 golden color? Yes. Okay. So if it’s a darker brown color, it’s probably getting oxidized.
0:34:14 It’s oxidized and then it’s no good. That’s not doing anything. And it could even be bad for your skin.
0:34:20 But as Alessandro was saying, so vitamin C is really important because it’s antioxidant properties.
0:34:27 It can also help on collagen production. So the enzyme that produce collagen use vitamin C as like
0:34:34 a cofactor, an important piece of the protein building process. And it can also suppress melanin
0:34:41 production. So it also can help with the dark spots. We have tested several products in the market
0:34:49 that contain vitamin C. Some of them have a really high dose or antioxidant power.
0:34:57 And these are the good ones for dark spots. Some just have a basal level that’s good as an antioxidant.
0:34:59 How do you test those? What does the lab look like?
0:35:07 So we can expose the antioxidant to free radicals and see the scavenging of this free radical.
0:35:12 So it just changes the color and you measure the absorbance. If it’s like scavenging the free
0:35:18 radicals or not. And then you can determine like the power of one antioxidant or a full formula.
0:35:24 We determine like we have vitamin C on one of our products. And in the whole process of choosing
0:35:30 the antioxidants, we were doing this test not only with the ingredient, because sometimes the raw
0:35:38 ingredient has a high power. But at the end, the final formula, how it’s working, it’s the most
0:35:42 important. So we do that step as well. That’s interesting. And then you probably have to test
0:35:49 30 days in packaging as well to be like, okay, is this maintaining as an oxidizer or not?
0:35:55 Yeah, we have stability tests on the final package to ensure. And most of our packages as well,
0:36:02 they’re airless and opaque because then you don’t have air coming in contact with the formula.
0:36:09 So that’s also helping preserving the properties of the formula and opaque to avoid the light as well.
0:36:15 Wow, that’s an intense process. Yes. That’s really cool. There’s no shortage of actual
0:36:21 ingestible supplements outside of collagen, like skin and nail support, or you know,
0:36:27 like all the big major brands have something. Is there anything else out there supplement wise,
0:36:34 not topical, but actual ingestible that is important for skin health? Or is it just mainly
0:36:39 collagen is the kind of go to? I think that always is very important, like independently,
0:36:45 if you’re going to take supplements or not, you need to think about your overall diet.
0:36:50 Because even if you take supplements, but you’re having a very like bad diet and a very bad routine
0:36:57 on sleep, on exercise, it will not do magic as well. So in terms of supplements for the skin,
0:37:03 it’s very important to keep the hydration. So you have a good quality of skin. So this is water,
0:37:07 water is a good supplement then. Do you recommend on that front? Because forever I’ve heard like
0:37:11 eight glasses of water a day, or do you have a different formula that you all adhere to?
0:37:16 Yeah, I’m on the formula of two liters per day. Yeah, it’s about eight glasses. Yeah.
0:37:21 Okay, so about that. Okay. Yeah, that’s a good range. Sometimes you add some electrolytes that
0:37:26 helps you absorb, to maintain the hydration helps as well. Yeah, I do that as well, especially
0:37:31 because I do a lot of sauna usage and things like that where you’re just like losing a lot.
0:37:37 Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Any other supplement? Yeah, I would say that in general, you want to have a
0:37:44 healthy diet that’s going to decrease overall production of inflammation. So you can add the
0:37:51 fatty acids like omega three, but you can also consume this from your diet, vitamin D, vitamin E,
0:37:56 vitamin C. These are all important vitamins for your skin and for our overall health.
0:38:00 Right. So and even. But there’s no several, several bullet here where you’re like, no,
0:38:05 no, Kevin, you got to take this one little thing and that’ll. No. Okay. Yeah. So just a
0:38:11 general diet to drink a lot of water, general overall balance from the sun. Yeah. So that’s
0:38:19 good to know. All right. So we’d love to cover what are peptides and what has been this is exciting
0:38:24 to tell people who are watching why I want to have you guys on that. I thought this is really
0:38:29 important is because you started a company called OneSkin and one of the things for me,
0:38:36 my wife, she’s a very healthy person, healthier than I am, and is a has her a PhD in neuroscience.
0:38:41 So she is connected to a lot of scientists. She actually went to school with Huberman. They’re
0:38:47 like friends. Yeah, they’re friends from back in the day. They were in the same lab. Tia has
0:38:51 been my physician for a long time. Rhonda Patrick is the dear friend. Dr. Davis Sinclair has been
0:38:56 on my podcast before. These are people that I looked to and say, okay, what are they paying
0:39:01 attention to? Because they’re reading all the literature, right? And they’re not just making
0:39:06 shit up. Like they’re looking at peer reviews, published studies. And when they mentioned
0:39:11 something, and I hear it once or twice, then something goes off my head. And I’m like, I’m
0:39:16 a geek. And so I’m like, Hey, maybe I should start paying attention to this. Dr. Davis Sinclair
0:39:21 mentioned you all. And I heard about that. And then Rhonda had mentioned it as something that
0:39:25 she was interested in by reading one of the research papers, she had not used your products
0:39:30 at that time. And I’m like, okay, well, there’s those two flag goes up to scientists that are
0:39:36 insanely well respected. You’re hitting their radar. You’re doing something right. And you also
0:39:42 just won fast company, most innovative company of the year award. Congratulations on that. So I was
0:39:46 like, well, shit, like we got to get these, these ladies in the podcast and like talk about what’s
0:39:51 going on here. So what are you building? What have you discovered? And like, this is a science
0:39:57 first approach, would really love to hear about the research. Yeah. So we’re a science lab company
0:40:04 that started as a biotech. So we started, although our products are only in the market for the last
0:40:11 three years, we started the company in 2016. And what we did was develop this robust platform that
0:40:19 was designed to find and validate molecules that has skin age reversal capabilities. So we spent
0:40:26 five years in the lab reproducing skin aging, like building human skins and understanding the
0:40:31 changes in the biomarkers that are changing on the skin. We look to the morphology of the skin,
0:40:36 we look to the gene expression, we look to genetic changes. And we start to understand
0:40:42 what’s causing what’s the root cause of skin aging and how the senescent cells, this accumulation
0:40:48 of senescent cells, it’s playing a role on the skin aging process. On the early beginning,
0:40:53 we start to look to the products in the market and test in our platform. And what we realize is
0:40:59 that the products out there, they are not targeting the root cause of aging. And therefore,
0:41:06 they do not reverse skin aging. And sometimes they can even deteriorate or accelerate the aging
0:41:13 process. And when we start to realize that, we were changing a lot of times the direction that
0:41:18 we were going, because this first platform, the idea would be to create a seal, like, okay, one
0:41:25 skin cell for your product. But we saw an opportunity to look to a better molecule than what’s out there
0:41:29 in the market. Oh, so you wanted to validate products initially. Yeah. You were thinking like,
0:41:34 okay, I’ll get these in, we’ll try them against actual skin cells and like figure out which ones
0:41:40 work. Oh, that would be, that’s pretty cool. That explains the vitamin C story, because you
0:41:44 can try a bunch of vitamin C, which ones are legit. Exactly. Yeah, that’s pretty cool. And then,
0:41:51 as we were seeing, like, that there was retinol is the gold standard until now, but it’s a molecule
0:41:57 that was developed over 50 years ago. There’s not like new innovation targeting skin aging.
0:42:03 So we start to look for molecules and screen molecules that specifically would reduce senescence
0:42:10 burden. How do you find those? Like, how do you even start to begin to look for specific molecules?
0:42:15 I hear about AI doing that now, right? AI started to come to a picture where they’re like bringing
0:42:22 forward candidates for researchers to look into. So we started with a library of peptides from a
0:42:28 collaborator of ours from Brazil. So he was studying antimicrobial peptides. And we were
0:42:35 wondering if some of those peptides could have an impact in senescent cells. So we basically,
0:42:41 hypothesis three, basically, let’s try and see what happens. So we added those each peptides,
0:42:46 200 peptides, in contact with cells that were highly senescent. And then we did the first test
0:42:52 and we measured the amount of senescent cells at the end. And we found the four hits for peptides
0:43:00 that performed well. And then we use AI. We use AI to optimize those four sequences and create 800
0:43:06 out of these four. And then we did another round of tests. And then we got to a better molecule
0:43:12 that was more efficient in reducing the amount of senescent cells. So is this a novel molecule that
0:43:19 you all have? Oh, interesting. It’s a completely novel proprietary peptide that we call OS1. And
0:43:23 we have a publisher paper that describes the mechanism of action, how it works,
0:43:31 how it enters the cells, activates DNA repair pathways, basically reduces the pathways that
0:43:36 are producing inflammation. So in the end, you have fewer senescent cells. We can also show
0:43:41 that it reverses the age of the skin. So in the end, we can also see that the skin is treated
0:43:46 in the lab with OS1. They have two and a half years. They are two and a half years younger
0:43:52 than the skins that were not treated. So it’s a very interesting approach because basically,
0:43:57 our rationale is if senescent cells is one of the main drives of aging, if we target senescent
0:44:03 cells, can we reverse skin aging? And then the way that we measure the skin biological age,
0:44:09 we could actually quantify this age reversal effect. So this is really cool science. But
0:44:15 the one thing that is so very important, as you all know, is really making sure that you get this
0:44:21 validated in a way that isn’t just more marketing copy that we all see on every product everywhere
0:44:27 talking about anti-aging. Anti-aging is burnt out as a topic these days because it’s mostly
0:44:34 bullshit, right? And so what process did you go through for this to get proper peer-reviewed
0:44:38 placebo-controlled actual studies to show that this is actually the case?
0:44:44 Yeah. So first was all the science done in the lab where we do the experiments with us compared
0:44:50 to a control. We test our molecule and then we evaluated the gene expressions, senescent level,
0:44:56 biological age. And all this lab study, we submitted to a peer-reviewed journal. So peer
0:45:02 scientists looked to that, come back. The process for publishing this data on this novel peptide,
0:45:08 it took two years because we needed to show more data. And we did a single cell experiment to
0:45:13 understand really the mechanism of the peptide and then was published in a very good journal,
0:45:20 Nature Publishing Journal. And after we have the molecule, we have always done the formulation
0:45:26 and test the formula, the final formula in the lab, but also in clinical studies.
0:45:32 So we have clinical data. And the first one that we did, we were very bold on our hypothesis that
0:45:39 we did the final formula of our face product with and without the peptide. And we did a split face
0:45:44 study. On a single person. Yeah, this was just recently published as well. That’s really screwed
0:45:51 up. Somebody walked with a jacked up face. So how does that work? So we were able, and the interesting
0:45:56 thing is like more than, because sometimes the perception of the person, is this better or if
0:46:03 it’s hard to say if it’s better or not, but we use instruments to analyze. So we measured the skin
0:46:10 barrier properties of the skin and it was improved on the side that contain the peptide versus the
0:46:16 other one. And participants are blind. The person that’s conducting this study is also blind. We
0:46:23 saw difference also in the texture of the skin reduction on the indentation of the wrinkles,
0:46:30 like so less wrinkles on the side that had the peptide versus the other one. So tell me how
0:46:35 you measure that. Typically you go to a skincare website and they’re like 12 weeks later and there’s
0:46:39 like a picture A, picture B, you know, was that photoshopped or you know what I mean, like what’s
0:46:47 a scientific way to actually measure wrinkles? So there is the what they say expert blind analysis
0:46:53 that either in person or through a picture, someone will give a rate on the quality of that
0:46:58 wrinkles for one to five and then it’s completely blinded and you see the results of the baseline
0:47:07 versus 12 weeks. Or you can also use some of the images too to really analyze using a software,
0:47:14 the depth of those wrinkles and that measure like this length of the wrinkles and creates like a map
0:47:20 and it’s a software analyzing. So it’s like high resolution thing. That seems way more objective
0:47:25 than a subjective person just coming in and being like, Oh, it looks like they might have like a
0:47:29 hard night of drinking or something and then they’re out the whole jacked up in this day.
0:47:34 Yeah. So the main ones are vision and there’s another one called anteros. So these ones can
0:47:41 quantify they generate images and you can see like the depth of the wrinkle. So you can quantify the
0:47:47 these chains in a more, I would say, accurate way than a human subject analyzing it. And then
0:47:52 there are other instruments that can measure the water loss like the hydration and how is
0:47:58 the skin barrier, also the elasticity. So anytime that you look to a result of clinical studies
0:48:04 on a website, if it’s consumer perception or subjective perception, it’s good that the study
0:48:12 was done, but it’s not as analytical as when you have instrumental data because instrumental data
0:48:18 then is more like quantifying the changes without subjective perception. Have you gone
0:48:24 further? Have you gone like biopsy? And okay, so that’s crazy. Yeah. Yeah, how do you sign someone
0:48:27 up for that? You’re probably like doing the back and neck or something or like, where do you do
0:48:34 that? So for that one that we want to evaluate if we can reduce the skin’s age in humans, we needed
0:48:41 to collect biopsy and then we did on the outer arm because it’s an area that’s also sun exposed,
0:48:46 but people are more willing to give biopsy than the face is harder to call me someone.
0:48:51 Right, to take a check out. Yeah. Yeah. And they are very small. It’s one millimeter biopsy.
0:48:55 Right. Yeah. It doesn’t even leave a scar, but… Yeah, that’s still tougher for the face. Yeah,
0:49:01 and we’re still analyzing. So we are measuring the changes in the biological age on people
0:49:08 after using the product. We had run a pilot already that had nice results, but was only 10
0:49:14 participants. So the statistical analysis was not that strong, but was on the right direction. So we
0:49:20 improved for 30 participants and this is ongoing right now. We hope that this year, at the end
0:49:25 of the year, we will have the data published as well. So you call this this compound OS1,
0:49:30 is that right? Yeah. So I’ve been using it now for a couple months and I’ve already noticed
0:49:35 good things. Generally, I have less little lines around here. This one that I naturally have all
0:49:41 the time is not as big as it once was. My neck doesn’t look… I mean, it’s good, but I didn’t
0:49:46 notice a reduction in dark spots. That’s the only thing. Is that because I have naturally dark spots
0:49:52 around both sides? Are there limitations to how far this can go? What have you found? What is the
0:49:56 compound good at and are the things that it’s not good at that you might add an additional
0:50:03 compound over time? Yeah. So we did a test like the peptide effect in melanin production and we
0:50:09 compared the retinol that you’re using and cajic acid. So these are two ingredients well known for
0:50:18 hyperpigmentation. In the lab, we saw that our peptide performed better than retinol and cajic
0:50:24 acid in producing both what we call like intracellular melanin and extracellular because the
0:50:28 melanin that is ejected from the cells is the one that you’re going to notice.
0:50:36 But obviously, the product was not designed to target like a pigmentation. So you can compliment
0:50:43 it with potentially a retinol can help exfoliating the skin. Also, some products that are high in
0:50:51 vitamin C that are more potent that can help. So hyperpigmentation is definitely a very challenging
0:50:57 condition so that you can try with like different approaches to see if you can. But in general,
0:51:02 what we would recommend like a light exfoliation that you can induce that cell turnover,
0:51:09 you can potentially use retinol but don’t forget to pair with the product that’s going to hydrate
0:51:15 and counteract the side effects of retinol, vitamin C and obviously sunscreen because if you’re
0:51:21 going to get more dark spots, if you don’t treat it and be exposed in the sun.
0:51:26 It’s interesting. Everyone must be just so uniquely different. My father was still around
0:51:32 and alive. If you look at him in his 70s, he had just massive dark spots and I know that like people
0:51:38 go in and they get lasers done to actually work on these as well. The lasers, I’ve heard scary
0:51:43 things. I’ve heard you can either like really work or it can actually sometimes go the opposite way
0:51:48 and make them darker. Yeah, because what can happen is that a rebound effect, right? If you
0:51:54 insult your skin too much, if you basically rip off like all the and you’re like, you remove
0:52:01 completely the epidermal layer, then you need to grow a new epidermal layer but you caused
0:52:08 so much insult and damage to your skin that the inflammation can make that process to come back
0:52:14 like even worse. Some ingredients, for example, hydroquinone that people also use, that inhibits
0:52:20 tyrosinase, that’s one of the enzymes that’s involved in melanin production, they can have
0:52:26 these rebound effects. I would definitely avoid hydroquinone. I think right now, if you’re going
0:52:35 a mild way, it can help but in lasers, IPL is one that usually is not super strong but there are
0:52:42 all these that can potentially cause that rebound that you just need to be careful. Yeah. And one
0:52:49 thing like that we need to think when we go to laser and other approaches is your skin, how it
0:52:55 is the skin health at that moment, it’s important to how your skin will react to that treatment.
0:53:00 As Carol was saying, like the underlying causes of what’s bringing this dark spot or inflammation.
0:53:07 So we see our product pairing super well with those kind of procedures because it’s helping to
0:53:14 reduce the aging and the damage on the skin. So the skin is more in a healthy state. So when you
0:53:20 do those treatments, you can benefit more and see better results. I see. Yeah. You have a more
0:53:27 resilient skin. So even if you have some kind of damage, your skin recovers in a healthier way.
0:53:32 Yeah. I love the fact that your products, they’re just straightforward. It’s like you have a face
0:53:37 wash, you have like a body lotion and you’ve got like a general face and then you have some eye stuff
0:53:43 if you really want to concentrate. So the eye serum, it’s not serum, it’s just a cry cream.
0:53:49 It’s the most concentrated version of this OS1, right? Yeah. So am I doing it wrong? I’m kind of
0:53:54 cheating because I’m putting that all over. Yeah. Is that cheating or is that okay? It’s okay if you
0:54:00 have like places that you’re seeing that there’s my damage. I can also do that. It gets more expensive.
0:54:06 It’s very interesting because why we decided to produce the eye cream was we were seeing on
0:54:11 the literature and there was a very interesting research done measuring the biological age of
0:54:18 different areas of the skin face. And the biological age of the under eye and the eyelid
0:54:23 was 20 to 30 years older than right on the temples and cheeks. I mean, it makes sense. Yeah. It makes
0:54:29 sense. It’s a thinner skin, accumulates more damage. So we started to receive eyelid and under
0:54:34 eye skin in our lab and it’s so thin as well and we start to look to the markers of some essence.
0:54:42 How do you buy eye skin, like eyelids? We go to the market and then we ask. You can buy like as
0:54:48 a researcher, usually skin from Abdomen, from plastic surgery. Oh, I understand because you’re
0:54:53 getting rid of it anyway. They’re getting rid and also like from left over plastic surgery,
0:54:59 there’s skin that’s left over and you can either partner with the dermatologist or there are some
0:55:06 places that you can buy as well. So having that skin in our lab, we start to like really to realize
0:55:12 how thin is that skin and how much damage when we measure the markers of aging on that skin.
0:55:18 So the whole optimization of the formula was all treated on the skins from the eyelid and
0:55:24 then we compared it even with the face product. We treat eyelid skins with face and the eye cream
0:55:30 and we see that face is able to reduce cellulose and essence markers, inflammatory markers,
0:55:35 but it’s more potent with this formula that we created specific for this area and even the
0:55:41 collagen production, the induction is higher. So that’s why we recommend, especially if you already
0:55:48 have more visible signs of aging, to use the eye cream. If you are still like on early 30s and you
0:55:53 have like still a good, you can use face on the eye areas completely safe and you can see benefits,
0:55:59 but yeah, our eye cream is the most potent and sometimes yeah, you can use another areas if
0:56:05 you want. That’s awesome. What do you think about probiotics and skin biome? Is that a thing or is
0:56:09 that just made? I mean, obviously it’s a thing and that there’s like bacteria on your skin,
0:56:18 but are they harmful? Yeah. I mean, microbiome is a very complex kind of subject. We know that
0:56:24 they are obviously bacteria in our skin that’s good for us and the goal of probiotics is to
0:56:30 increase the rate of good bacteria and decrease the rate of the bad bacteria and fungi and virus.
0:56:36 So they are important to maintain the skin health and the skin barrier. So if you have a balanced
0:56:42 microbiome, they are going to generate metabolites that control inflammation. So it’s super,
0:56:48 it’s super important for your skin. How you manage that in terms of changing the microbiome,
0:56:54 you can change for bad if you use bad products. If you use products that have some preservatives
0:57:00 that can really kill off a lot of the good bacteria. In our case, we are not experiencing
0:57:04 microbiome, but one thing that we want to make sure is that our product didn’t stir the skin
0:57:12 microbiome. So it didn’t run a test that we evaluate after how many weeks? So as after six
0:57:20 weeks was a clinical study. So we swabbed the skin at baseline and we sequenced the skin microbiome.
0:57:27 And after six weeks using the face product, we swab again and sequenced the microbiome again.
0:57:33 And what we saw with our product was that we are not disturbing the microbiome. So it’s a
0:57:39 microbiome friendly. There was even some indications of the good bacteria being proliferating in a
0:57:46 better environment after the six weeks. But as Carol was saying, so complex and there’s still
0:57:52 a lot of like knowledge starting to be built on the correlation of aging, longevity and the
0:57:59 skin microbiome, that’s hard to like make the final say what is good or bad. But in general,
0:58:04 we do see and I think it’s important in a lot of products, they don’t care or they don’t have
0:58:07 resources for that. Yeah, I mean the fact that you did this is pretty amazing. We did it like just
0:58:14 to make sure and we at least we’ve done for OS1 face that you can use on the whole face. We will
0:58:20 potentially do with the other products as well. But at least we know that we are not disturbing
0:58:25 the skin microbiome because it is important to keep your skin healthy, to have a good skin
0:58:30 microbiome. Yeah, that’s awesome that you even did that study. A couple other questions for you,
0:58:36 red light therapy. If you go to any of these dermatologists or more so just like someone
0:58:42 that’s going to exfoliate you or something like that, my wife signed me up for one time in SF and
0:58:47 I went and it was a crazy experience. I hadn’t done a whole heck of a lot of that, but they put
0:58:52 all kinds of lasers and shit on my face like not lasers, but like the different LEDs on my face.
0:58:55 And I gotta tell you, I was like sitting there, I’m like, this is some bullshit. I just like you
0:59:00 don’t think it’s like real. Do you think there’s any good data to support any of that?
0:59:07 There are a lot of studies and I think there is an agreement that it helps your skin. We don’t,
0:59:13 I mean, it’s through light. So the mechanism is a little complex, but because it’s a low,
0:59:20 how can I say, it’s a low impact and it needs to be something that you use every day to see results
0:59:26 long term. But there are studies showing that it’s going to improve the cellular function. So
0:59:31 your cell will function in terms of producing more energy and then this will lead to more collagen
0:59:37 production to the overall health of your skin can have like anti-inflammatory effects, but it’s not
0:59:41 like one day that you do 30 minutes that you’re going to see results. Right, which is what they were
0:59:48 doing. Yeah, exactly. So usually if you have a regimen or a routine of using, you know, 20 minutes
0:59:54 a day every day, there are studies supporting that because in the end, the goal is to reduce
0:59:59 like inflammation and improve that cellular function in a different mechanism that our product
1:00:05 works. And the good part that there is no, you know, detrimental effect. So it’s very safe.
1:00:10 So for people that want to try different strategies, I think that’s interesting.
1:00:14 Yeah, I was talking to Rhonda Patrick about this and I don’t know that she’s published her report
1:00:19 on it yet, but she was saying that there’s just so many companies out there in that field and you
1:00:26 have to get the spectrum right. And there also has to be a proximity to the skin that gives you
1:00:31 enough penetration to actually make it work. I won’t spoil her article, but she had thrown away
1:00:36 a bunch of like, it seemed to be like bad candidates just because there was a lot of marketing hype.
1:00:41 And she’s like, there’s good science here. There is something there, but it has to be
1:00:45 the right delivery mechanism. So it feels like that’s what we’re all waiting to see.
1:00:51 So I’m really curious to see what she comes out with. All right, so acne scars are a big one
1:00:59 for a lot of people. Anything we can do? I mean, acne after the scar is formed is a very complex
1:01:06 thing to solve because it means that the extracellular matrix like the collagen matrix,
1:01:13 it’s built differently from the rest of your skin. It’s somehow unhealthy, the balance. And also you
1:01:18 have more production of melanin. That’s why it sometimes gets like a different color. So once
1:01:25 you have this scar, the repair system, it’s a little bit hard to do. If you’re improving your
1:01:30 skin health and there are products that you can use together, there are some micro needling that’s
1:01:39 like trying to induce the repair pathways again and remodeling that tissue again that can help.
1:01:46 There are some peelings that can help, but it will all depend on the degree of that scar.
1:01:52 And it’s a medical doctor can analyze, but it’s hard to have a single topical product that will
1:01:58 eliminate scar tissue from acne. Yeah, you brought up micro needling, which is interesting because
1:02:03 it’s a hot topic right now, hot area. I say this like I know what I’m talking about, but I’ve
1:02:09 heard enough people talking about it. I will say that a friend of mine, she went in recently,
1:02:13 this is some true shit. I’m sure you know what I’m talking about. She got her blood drawn,
1:02:22 and then they spin it and they pull out the stem cells out of it. And then you can micro needle
1:02:26 and put stem cells back into your face. Or maybe it’s the stem cells they’re pulling out. I don’t
1:02:35 know where they’re pulling out the blood. Is that real science? Yeah, because there are a lot
1:02:40 of growth factors in your plasma. So basically what they’re doing is concentrating those growth
1:02:45 factors and applying some people apply on your hair for hair growth. You can also apply in your
1:02:51 skin. But also what I usually say, okay, if your body is healthy, if you have a low inflammation
1:02:57 body that can work, if your body is completely inflamed, even if you purify your PRP and apply
1:03:04 your near faces, it may not work. So you need to basically harvest from a good source. And if
1:03:09 that person is healthy, you are just concentrating those growth factors and applying so your skin
1:03:16 will regenerate in a more efficient way. And the micro needle allows the penetration of those
1:03:21 growth factors. So it’s important to have the micro needle associated on this kind of thing.
1:03:26 So they can break through and actually get in. What allows your compound to get past that barrier
1:03:33 to actually get into its work? So there is permeability on our skin. And because of the size,
1:03:39 the conformation, and the type of formulas we have, the peptide can naturally penetrate the skin. And
1:03:46 we know that because we measure when we have a human skin in our lab, we can use a tool called
1:03:51 it’s a front cell where you apply the product on top and you see what’s coming pulling down.
1:03:59 And we can just detect through mass spectrum the amount of peptides. So we know it’s not all molecules
1:04:04 that can penetrate. This is something also important because not all companies look to
1:04:11 penetration studies on even like growth factors. Sometimes you will see growth factors on products
1:04:16 and usually they have high size. And I’m not sure if they will penetrate or not,
1:04:20 and they don’t have data to ensure that. So a lot of times you’re buying something that
1:04:26 the concept is nice, like the idea is nice. But if it’s not being delivered, it’s not working,
1:04:31 it’s not having the action. Is it crazy that like when I put stuff on, I just, I rub it,
1:04:37 I’m kind of like, good, I’m done. Do I really need to massage it in? Am I going to get any benefit
1:04:42 from like really working the compound into the skin? I don’t think the massage will help the
1:04:48 compound. Obviously you apply and make sure that you don’t rub it off. Like to just make sure that
1:04:54 you have a nice application. I think the massage helps in other ways. With blood circulation,
1:05:00 more nutrients being delivered and it helps like clearing out the skin. There’s no science,
1:05:06 like, okay, if you massage for 30 seconds, you will have better benefits. It’s a self-care moment
1:05:12 as well. You kind of know too, once it’s like, you need to feel that you have enough, that your
1:05:17 skin feels hydrated, and then you should be good to go. Awesome. Two more questions before we wrap
1:05:23 it up. OS1 in software iterations, there might be an OS2 and OS3. Obviously you’re still working
1:05:29 on new science. How do you continue to push things forward? Yeah, I think one of the things that
1:05:35 we’re studying right now is really to understand the precise mechanism of action that the peptide
1:05:41 works. Because knowing where it binds and which cells is activating in a more, I would say, precise
1:05:47 way, we can create modifications that can optimize that peptide. We can create smaller versions of
1:05:53 the peptide that can penetrate even better. So we are working on that, doing these studies that are
1:06:00 more like molecular studies. It’s super interesting, because I love this part so much. We have the
1:06:06 skin tissue, and we’re treating with the peptide, and we’re isolating single cells of the tissue. So
1:06:12 on our skin, we have mainly keratinocytes and fibroblasts, but we have melanocytes,
1:06:17 we have endothelial cells, we have immune cells. So now the study that we’re doing,
1:06:23 it’s individually on all the cells that are on the skin, what’s the fact that the peptide treatment
1:06:31 is giving? How? On a cell-by-cell basis. And we can see, and now we are able to identify if the
1:06:38 peptide is reducing more cellular senescence in one cell type versus other, and we are analyzing
1:06:44 this, and this can allow us. Okay, now we know exactly where he’s more potent, the peptide is
1:06:49 more potent. Let’s find a molecule then for this other time. Right, so you can put A and B in
1:06:53 the other better outcomes. I have like synergistic effects, so this is what we’re working on.
1:06:59 That would be like a 1.1 or something. Yeah. Oh, interesting. So our goal is, yeah, it’s super
1:07:05 exciting. Our goal is eventually like to bring, like iPhone, bring a new version of the cell phone,
1:07:12 we will bring the new version of the OS1 phase with these improvements that are all science-based
1:07:20 to better like to improve efficacy and improve the final results of the product. That’s awesome.
1:07:26 A couple more questions. Do you have to worry about different skin types like male versus female,
1:07:32 thickness levels, darker skins versus lighter skins? Is this kind of a general peptide that
1:07:38 can work on all skin types? Yeah, the peptide because it’s targeting the mechanism of aging,
1:07:44 the underlying mechanism of aging, and this is occurring does not matter like the gender or
1:07:50 the skin type. So the mechanism of the peptide is independent. It can work on all genders.
1:07:56 Universally true for all humans. And then what we try to do, it’s create a formula for delivering
1:08:03 this peptide that’s more universal, that can suit well different skin types. So this is like the
1:08:09 formulation process that we chose to use to not over complicate. So there is difference like on
1:08:16 the skin from men to women in terms that men, they produce more collagen than women. This is unfair.
1:08:25 So women usually start aging first like faster than men. The skin aging happens earlier on women,
1:08:30 but the reason why it’s happening is the same. Eventually, like in the men, it’s the accumulation
1:08:35 of this damaged cells and that’s in cells, the inflammation. So what the peptide is doing is
1:08:42 like common. And that’s why the product can be used by different skin type and different genders
1:08:50 as well. That’s fantastic. What are some common skincare myths and misconceptions that you’d
1:08:56 like to correct that are out there today? Are there things that people believe to be true
1:08:59 that you look at and you’re just like, why are people doing this?
1:09:08 I think one of them is that you need like 10 step skincare routine to have like a good skin.
1:09:16 I think the goal is try to simplify and to minimize the amount of products and be more
1:09:21 intentional with the ingredients that you are delivering. The other one, I think this is an
1:09:31 important one, is about causing too much damage in order to have like a nice, I’d say flawless skin
1:09:37 because, for example, for a long time, everyone was pushing for the highest strength of retinol.
1:09:42 Or you’re going to the dermatologist and you were doing the speeding that you were basically like
1:09:50 removing the layers. The intensive skin. Exactly. And now we’re realizing that long-term
1:09:56 this may not be the best option for your skin health. If you do too much damage, eventually
1:10:02 you can exhaust your skin. Your skin can get like very thin and more vulnerable and sensitive
1:10:09 over time. So I think there is a balance. And I was one of these people that was using retinol
1:10:14 all the time in peeling off and think, okay, I’m just getting younger. This is good for me. And
1:10:19 that’s how it is until we start testing retinol in the lab. And we were seeing that when we apply
1:10:25 retinol in the skin cells, like it not only increases inflammation, which we can all see
1:10:31 if we use retinol in the first days, but also some genes related to aging were going up.
1:10:37 And then I was like, okay, this is supposed to be anti-aging. And it’s like elevating some
1:10:43 genes associated with aging. And I think the main conclusion is that, yes, retinol can do that in
1:10:50 the acute phase when your skin is getting adept. But if you continue to insult your skin with stronger
1:10:58 and stronger versions, you may be exhausting your skin. And this cumulative damage may not
1:11:03 be good for you in the long term. So I think it’s basically respecting your skin and trying to find
1:11:09 that balance of a little bit of what we call a hermetic stress, right? That you are activating
1:11:16 your skin cells to work well for you, but not crossing that line that you’re causing too much
1:11:22 damage. And maybe the other one that’s also interesting is about the Botox, right? Is Botox
1:11:28 good or bad for you? I don’t think that it’s bad. I think it’s bad if you overdo it. Because if you’re
1:11:35 overdoing it, basically make your skin muscles lazy because you’re not using them for that time.
1:11:42 And you need also to pair Botox with something that is activating your skin cells to produce
1:11:48 collagen. Because Botox by itself won’t do that, right? We’ll just erase your wrinkles because it’s
1:11:56 paralyzing the muscles. So I think obviously there are those options that can give you that smooth
1:12:02 appearance, but it’s not treating the underneath cause. And in the end, okay, I can do a little bit
1:12:09 of Botox and I can have a very good skin care regimen at home that is still enhancing my skin
1:12:15 health and my skin’s ability to produce collagen. Turns out it’s about the slow and steady long
1:12:22 game versus any quick fix. It sounds nice. Exactly. Yeah. Well, this has been awesome. Really appreciate
1:12:28 you both coming on and chatting through these topics. Where can people read more of the research?
1:12:34 Where can they learn more about what you all are up to? Yeah. So on our website, oneskin.co,
1:12:40 there’s a section scientific publication. So you can see like the scientific, the original
1:12:46 piece of data. We also have a blog. It’s called reference lab. And in our blog, we digest all
1:12:53 our papers into a more easy friendly type of communication. We also talk about a lot of
1:13:01 the myth on skin aging, but also overall health and longevity. So these two places inside our
1:13:07 website are very good sources to look into our data. Awesome. Sounds good. Thank you for joining
1:13:10 me on the show. Thank you so much, Kevin. Awesome.