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0:00:59 Hey, Yap Gang.
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0:02:08 Again, it’s youngandprofiting.co slash blueprint to learn everything you need to get started as a creator entrepreneur.
0:02:20 Hey, App Fam.
0:02:23 I hope you enjoyed my interview with Mark Manson this week,
0:02:29 in which he showcased his wonderfully candid perspective on discovering life’s deeper purposes.
0:02:34 Mark is the best-selling author of many books, including The Subtle Art of Not Giving an F,
0:02:41 and was also on my show way back in episode number 65 during the early days of the pandemic.
0:02:45 And so we decided to give you a double dose of Mark Manson for this week’s Yap Classic.
0:02:50 In that episode, Mark talked with me about the downfalls of hope and why we’ll never be satisfied
0:02:54 unless we face the uncomfortable truths of life head-on.
0:02:55 That’s deep.
0:02:59 He also had some great actionable advice on how to gain more self-control,
0:03:03 make better decisions, and even how to use pain to strengthen your relationships.
0:03:09 So enjoy this hard-hitting, classic conversation with the always entertaining and thought-provoking
0:03:10 Mark Manson.
0:03:15 Welcome to the show, Mark.
0:03:17 It’s good to be here.
0:03:18 Thanks for having me.
0:03:23 For my guests who don’t know you, I would like to get some color about your background.
0:03:29 I read some of your blogs on career advice, and you note that you’re living out your dream job
0:03:29 currently.
0:03:34 And I say that with like air quotes because I know there’s no such thing as a 100% perfect
0:03:34 job.
0:03:38 So how did you end up becoming a blogger and an author?
0:03:42 Was that something you always wanted to do, or did that sort of like fall into your lap?
0:03:44 It was kind of an accident.
0:03:52 See, I graduated from college in the last crisis we had, which was the financial crisis in 2008.
0:03:55 And there was like zero job market.
0:03:59 And I kind of bounced around a few odd jobs.
0:04:01 I lived on a friend’s couch for a while.
0:04:04 And I started doing freelance web design.
0:04:10 And around the same time, I read Tim Ferriss’ four-hour work week, which talked about building
0:04:15 online businesses and automating them and, you know, how you could work four hours a week
0:04:17 and go live and play in Argentina or whatever.
0:04:20 I was like, hell yeah, I’m in.
0:04:21 That sounds perfect.
0:04:27 And so I spent the next couple of years trying to actually build e-commerce sites and like
0:04:29 affiliate marketing sites.
0:04:33 And it turned out that like I was kind of bad at it.
0:04:38 I’m not a natural salesman or marketer.
0:04:43 But the funny thing was, was at the time, blogs were kind of like all the rage back then.
0:04:44 When did you start?
0:04:47 I started blogging in 2008.
0:04:51 And so if you wanted people to come to your website, if you wanted to rank on Google,
0:04:55 if you wanted, there wasn’t much sharing on social media back then.
0:04:55 Yeah.
0:04:57 It was, you had to be blogging.
0:05:00 You had to be posting articles and coming up with stuff.
0:05:03 And so that’s actually how I ended up blogging.
0:05:07 Originally, it was just to like promote these crappy affiliate sites I had.
0:05:12 And it turned out I was much better at blogging than I was e-commerce.
0:05:17 And by 2011, 2012, it was blogging was all I was doing.
0:05:18 Yeah.
0:05:19 You are such a good writer.
0:05:22 So many people like really like your writing style.
0:05:23 because it’s so different.
0:05:24 It’s like a breath of fresh air.
0:05:27 It’s like a little witty and cheeky.
0:05:28 So props to you.
0:05:30 I actually had a website as well.
0:05:34 I had an entertainment news website from like 2010 to 2013.
0:05:36 And I think that was like the height of blogging.
0:05:38 But I couldn’t monetize it.
0:05:40 And so I shut that down.
0:05:44 And your blog is one of the only blogs I think that really has been able to monetize.
0:05:46 You’ve got like a premium subscription.
0:05:51 I know you also have a podcast, which is sort of like the audio version of a blog in my opinion.
0:05:55 So would you recommend like going, starting a blog or a podcast?
0:05:58 Or do you think those things are saturated now?
0:06:00 I definitely think blogging’s in a tough spot.
0:06:11 I, what happened with blogging is just that all of the smaller and medium sized websites, they either, they couldn’t monetize anymore.
0:06:11 Yeah.
0:06:15 Or they got eaten up by larger networks and large websites.
0:06:19 So people went to Huffington Post or writing for Huffington Post or Business Insider or whatever.
0:06:22 So it’s a tough spot to start.
0:06:25 And I mean, I don’t want to discourage anybody from blogging.
0:06:32 But if you’re looking to build a content business, blogging is probably one of the worst options right now.
0:06:33 I totally agree.
0:06:38 If I was starting today, I would start a podcast or a YouTube channel.
0:06:41 Those are the spaces that are still growing very quickly.
0:06:44 Those are the spaces where there’s still a lot of opportunity.
0:06:50 You know, like the big media companies haven’t totally figured out what works or how to do it.
0:06:55 And so those are always going to be the spaces where young hustlers have an advantage.
0:06:56 I totally agree.
0:07:01 And I’ll be more frank with my listeners because I have a more personal relationship with them.
0:07:12 I would totally avoid blogging if you don’t blog yet because unless you’re Mark Manson who was able from back then when it was like at its peak to get all these subscribers and things, it’s really hard.
0:07:16 And I would suggest working on something like he mentioned, like podcasts or YouTube instead.
0:07:17 Okay.
0:07:19 So we have limited time.
0:07:23 And like I mentioned, your new book, Everything F***ed, has so much content.
0:07:31 And I definitely want to get into some of the key takeaways that I found just to summarize, in my opinion, at a super high level, what this book is about.
0:07:36 It’s really about becoming an adult and not just any adult, but the best adult that you can be.
0:07:42 And some people think that like when you turn 18, you automatically become an adult, but that’s not really the case.
0:07:47 13% of adults actually behave and think like adults, according to some studies.
0:07:49 We’ll get into that later.
0:07:51 I just want to say that I read that book.
0:07:52 It was great.
0:07:56 I felt like I was getting a philosophy lesson with a modern twist.
0:08:02 And I really learned about philosophers I didn’t really know much about, like Nietzsche and Kant and Plato.
0:08:08 And so I want to just say thank you for writing something that’s like easy to understand for somebody who’s not really into philosophy.
0:08:13 I want to go back to when you actually started first writing this book.
0:08:15 So it released in May 2019.
0:08:17 So I’m assuming you wrote it like the year before.
0:08:21 At that time, why did you think that everything was a f***?
0:08:23 Well, it’s funny.
0:08:29 It’s funny talking about this now when actually there is a real crisis happening.
0:08:45 Because I think we so easily forget that I feel like that period of 2017, 2018, 2019, there was kind of like a fever pitch in our culture where everything felt like a crisis, but nothing was actually a crisis.
0:08:58 Like people were always freaking out over everything that happened, whereas, you know, you look out the window and everything’s great and job market’s best it’s been in 50 years and economy’s doing great.
0:09:05 And all the metrics in terms of like life expectancy and health and education are like all time highs.
0:09:10 You know, meanwhile, you go on Twitter and you would think that like the apocalypse was happening.
0:09:14 So the book was very much written to address that.
0:09:25 What is it about not just our culture today, but our generation that we get so worked up about things and trying to put those things in perspective.
0:09:37 And it’s ironic because one of the things that I talked about in the book is that it’s there’s a little bit of a paradox where when things are great, you kind of have to make up problems to be upset about.
0:09:42 Because it’s by being upset about things that you give your life a sense of meaning or a sense of hope.
0:09:47 And then it’s when it’s that things are actually f***ed up as they are right now.
0:09:47 Yeah.
0:09:50 You don’t have to go searching for a crisis.
0:09:52 You don’t have to go searching for problems.
0:09:54 The problem’s right there in front of you.
0:10:04 So in a weird way, crises are almost psychologically easier for us to bear because we know exactly what to hope for.
0:10:05 Yeah.
0:10:21 So it’s almost like when things are going so great, we end up making it worse for ourselves because we imagine things to be so bad or we make things that we wouldn’t otherwise think are bad just to like kind of satisfy our need to have a crisis and our need to kind of like hope for something.
0:10:26 So tell us what the definition of hope is in your opinion.
0:10:28 Like how do you define hope?
0:10:33 I define hope as some sort of vision of the future that we believe will be better.
0:10:37 There are a couple of things that are interesting about, I guess, that definition of hope.
0:10:46 One is just simply that if we don’t have some vision of our future that is better, that’s when we fall into depression or despair.
0:10:53 You know, it’s one of the things I talk about in chapter one is that, you know, the opposite of happiness is not sadness or anger.
0:10:55 The opposite of happiness is hopelessness.
0:11:01 It’s a sense that nothing we do matters, nothing that we do will affect any sorts of change.
0:11:02 Yeah.
0:11:16 But the other thing about that vision of a better future is that paradoxically that it’s easier to have hope when times are bad and it’s more difficult to find hope when things are good and comfortable.
0:11:27 And so for me, that’s, I present, there’s a lot of statistics like, you know, suicide is the highest in the wealthiest and safest countries in the world.
0:11:38 People who, once they reach middle class or upper middle class, you see things like depression, anxiety, mental health issues start to increase.
0:11:48 And that doesn’t really make sense, but when you look at it in terms of the difficulty it comes with hoping for something better in the future, it kind of explains that.
0:11:59 And so I know that a way that we can kind of deal with the issue of hope is to deal with something you call the uncomfortable truth and take that head on.
0:12:02 Can you explain that concept to our listeners?
0:12:03 Sure.
0:12:13 The uncomfortable truth is that, you know, in the grand scheme of things, the vast majority of the things that we say and do are not going to matter.
0:12:15 Period.
0:12:29 You know, it’s, it reminds me like when I was at school, I remember taking an astronomy course and like just learning how vast the universe is and how like long the history of the earth is.
0:12:39 And how many billions of people have come before and just, and it’s just like that feeling of smallness and insignificance, you know, it’s like, it’s like, wow.
0:12:42 And I was really upset over what my mom said this morning.
0:12:44 You know, like it just seems so trifling by comparison.
0:12:55 So the uncomfortable truth is, it’s just this realization that like the vast majority of the things that you spend your energy, time and energy caring about are not going to matter in the long run.
0:12:57 And on the one hand, that can be a very depressing realization.
0:13:00 But on the other hand, it can be a very liberating realization.
0:13:01 Yeah.
0:13:03 Because it allows you to let go of those things.
0:13:07 But how, how would somebody get motivated from that?
0:13:11 Or is your point not to motivate someone from the uncomfortable truth?
0:13:15 Is the point for the person to feel like less stressed about everyday life?
0:13:19 Like what’s the point of acknowledging that uncomfortable truth?
0:13:24 Well, I think we all spend a lot of our energy avoiding that truth.
0:13:37 So we convince ourselves that some little project in our life is like life and death important or, or something we say to another person is like, if we embarrass ourselves in front of somebody, it’s like, oh my God, our lives are over.
0:13:39 It’s the uncomfortable truth.
0:13:44 It’s, it’s a, it’s a scary thing that we avoid accepting.
0:13:54 But if you are able to accept it, it, it shows you that most of the things that stress you out are actually not that significant.
0:13:58 And so it kind of has a, it’s a double, a little bit of a double-edged sword.
0:14:00 It can, it can make everything feel meaningless.
0:14:10 But at the same time, if most of the things that you say or do or pursue are meaningless, then that means you’re completely free to do what matters to you.
0:14:11 Yeah.
0:14:19 To, there’s no excuse to not embarrass yourself or to not fail at something or to not pursue a dream or to not tell somebody that you love them.
0:14:22 There’s, because it’s, we’re all going to die anyway.
0:14:26 So you might as well live each moment to its fullest.
0:14:27 Yeah, totally.
0:14:36 It’s like gives you some perspective and also helps you with your priorities and makes you realize that like this big problem that I have isn’t really that serious.
0:14:38 Who’s going to remember it when I die?
0:14:40 Who’s going to, so that’s a good point.
0:14:43 Let’s hold that thought and take a quick break with our sponsors.
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0:19:54 Something else in your book that I really thought was interesting was the concept of the thinking and feeling brain.
0:19:58 And so this is something that people have been talking about for a long time.
0:20:11 In the Christian era, I think that people thought that it was more like the thinking brain that was in control, but now more recently people are saying it’s really the feeling brain that’s in control of our mind.
0:20:14 You have this awesome analogy of the conscious car.
0:20:21 Would you explain that to us and help us understand your perspective between the thinking and feeling brain and how they react with each other?
0:20:22 Sure.
0:20:44 So the consciousness car is, you know, if you think about the two aspects of our minds, kind of the emotional side of the mind and then the more rational side of our mind, most of us operate under the assumption that the rational side of our mind is like the adult in the car who’s driving and is in charge.
0:20:53 And the emotional side of our mind is like the obnoxious kid in the passenger seat who just like won’t shut up and is like demanding ice cream all the time.
0:21:17 And a lot of what we understand as being like a disciplined, mature human being is like teaching that kid and the emotional side of our brain to just shut the f*** up for like 40% of the time so that the adult, like the rational part of our brain can like get to work and do the right things and be like a functioning human being.
0:21:24 But what’s interesting is that if you look at psychological research, it’s like it turns out that we’re all very driven.
0:21:28 It’s actually the emotional side of our brain is the one that’s driving the car.
0:21:43 And it’s the thinking part of our brain is very good at explaining our emotional impulses in a way that sound very reasonable and rational, but they aren’t necessarily.
0:21:49 And so really, we are very impulsive creatures.
0:21:55 We all make most of our decisions based on our emotions, based on our feelings.
0:22:07 And if we’re not aware that we’re doing that, then the rational side of our brain is kind of enslaved by our emotions to always just justify whatever we feel about ourselves.
0:22:19 And so what I argue in that part of the book is that instead of working, trying to work against our emotions or like suppress our emotions or deny our emotions, we need to work with our emotions.
0:22:27 We need to understand the role that each part of our mind plays because the emotional side of our brain is incredibly important.
0:22:28 It determines our motivation.
0:22:30 It determines our inspiration.
0:22:34 It determines where we feel value and significance in our lives.
0:22:42 And so if we deny that part of ourselves and just try to be rational all the time, then we’re kind of gutting ourselves of the meaning in our lives.
0:22:54 So what I argue is that, you know, we should get the two sides of our brains talking to each other and listening to each other, which is difficult because they kind of speak different languages.
0:23:02 But in my opinion, that’s kind of what emotional or I would say even mental health is.
0:23:11 Having the rational side of our brain and the emotional side of our brain interacting with each other and understanding each other.
0:23:20 So give us like a real example of doing that, like a situation where let’s give an example of like you don’t feel like going to the gym, but you know that you should.
0:23:23 Like what’s the dialogue that you should be having in your head?
0:23:24 Right.
0:23:30 So, you know, if you feel like you should be working out, but you’re not, you know, we’ve all experienced that before.
0:23:32 And most of us, we judge ourselves.
0:23:34 We’re like, man, I’m such a loser.
0:23:36 I can’t get out of bed and go to the gym.
0:23:40 And we see it as a failure of willpower.
0:23:43 We see it as a failure of kind of like our rational side of our mind.
0:23:53 But the fact of the matter is, is until we are emotionally motivated to go to the gym, until we enjoy going to the gym to some extent, we’re not going to go.
0:23:55 We’re always going to find a reason not to go.
0:23:58 And so in that sense, it’s an emotional problem.
0:23:59 It’s not a problem of knowledge.
0:24:02 It’s not a problem of willpower or whatever.
0:24:16 So if we understand that, what we can do instead of like trying to will ourselves to the gym constantly, what you can do is you can set up your environment in such a way in that you make it enjoyable to go to the gym.
0:24:20 So maybe you find a friend who goes to the gym with you.
0:24:35 And it’s in that way, if you wake up and you’re supposed to meet your friend at the gym at 8 a.m., the fear of embarrassment of not being there and you’re like your friend arriving and you not like that is an emotional motivation that will get you out of bed and go to the gym.
0:24:44 You know, another way to do it is to hire a trainer and be like, well, I spent all this damn money and I’m going to feel awful if I don’t use it.
0:24:53 So it’s using your rational mind to create parameters and circumstances that make something emotionally enjoyable to do.
0:24:57 Yeah, it’s like tricking your feeling brain into something that you want to do.
0:24:58 Totally.
0:25:07 So another piece of this thinking and feeling brain in your book that you talk about is how the thinking brain tries to maintain a sense of hope.
0:25:09 And we were talking about hope before.
0:25:11 Can you help us understand the connection with that?
0:25:19 Well, the thinking brain is always, you’re always trying to envision some sort of better future for yourselves.
0:25:27 And whether that’s like you as an individual or if it’s the world being a better place or impressing your parents or whatever.
0:25:37 Like it’s, we all need some sort of carrot dangling in front of us to give ourselves direction and purpose in our lives.
0:25:49 And so the thinking brain’s job is to kind of come up with those sorts of things, is to figure out that equation of if I do X, then I will be happy or, you know, whatever.
0:25:56 Okay, so let’s move on to another big topic, which is pain and values.
0:26:00 Now, you say pain is a currency of our values.
0:26:02 I thought this was super powerful.
0:26:10 Help us understand why you think that like pain is what really keeps us motivated and things like that.
0:26:15 Well, generally people, you know, people like to avoid pain.
0:26:24 But the problem with avoiding pain is that we only value things in our lives in proportion to how much we feel we have to give up for it.
0:26:30 So like if you think about like a spoiled child, like a child that’s just given everything he or she wants.
0:26:31 Yeah.
0:26:40 The reason they’re, these spoiled kids grew up to be like awful human beings is because they never understand the value of anything.
0:26:45 Everything is, it’s just a frivolous thing for them to experience from moment to moment.
0:26:56 It’s only when you’re able to go through some sort of challenge or hardship that you are able to understand like what is worth sacrificing for and what is not.
0:26:57 Yeah.
0:27:03 You know, it’s only once you’ve lost something that you understand how valuable, how meaningful it was in your life.
0:27:11 And so I just, through all my work and all my books, I consistently make the argument that pain and suffering is important.
0:27:12 Yes.
0:27:26 And not only is it impossible to get rid of pain and suffering, but like we need to have pain and suffering because psychologically it is kind of like the fuel that generates our sense of meaning and importance in the world.
0:27:27 Yeah.
0:27:30 And so it’s not a question of getting rid of pain, it’s like choosing better pain.
0:27:31 Totally.
0:27:31 Essentially.
0:27:32 Yeah.
0:27:34 And we can go back to the workout example.
0:27:42 The more you put yourself in pain with working out, the more you’re able to keep working out and kind of like build that strength.
0:27:44 And everything is pain.
0:27:47 When you’re happy, it’s just like your pain is alleviated.
0:27:49 When you’re sad, it’s just your pain is amplified.
0:27:52 So let’s talk about anti-fragility.
0:27:55 This is a really cool concept that you have.
0:28:04 And basically it means that we need to kind of, like you said, choose our suffering and be okay with choosing pain and not avoiding it.
0:28:05 Can you tell us more about that?
0:28:09 So anti-fragility comes from Nassim Taleb.
0:28:18 It’s a really cool idea where he talks about how, you know, the opposite of fragility or being fragile, it’s not necessarily being robust.
0:28:25 It’s actually being anti-fragile, which is you gain from pain or disorder in your life.
0:28:33 And so if you look at things like the human body or the human mind, the human body and human mind are actually, they’re not resilient.
0:28:34 They’re anti-fragile.
0:28:41 The reason you get stronger at the gym is because you are breaking your muscles down and making them stronger.
0:28:53 The reason that you get better after failure is because you are breaking down a lot of your assumptions and beliefs and your fears and building up better experiences over them.
0:29:03 And so in that sense, by actually inviting certain amounts of pain and struggle into your life, you make yourself a stronger individual with far more potential.
0:29:24 And one of the big arguments of the book is what I, and what I fear is that, you know, in our culture, there’s been such a, it’s been, it’s becoming so taken for granted that, you know, we’re all like, we’re all supposed to be happy and we all deserve to be happy.
0:29:28 And we all deserve to have a great, easy life and nobody should suffer and all this stuff.
0:29:32 And it’s, yes, we should try to get rid of injustice.
0:29:44 We should try to get rid of people who are predatory or people who are, who are evil, but you shouldn’t try to get rid of suffering because suffering is necessary for growth.
0:29:49 It’s necessary for making people stronger, more resilient, more mature human beings.
0:30:02 And so what I fear is that as our culture kind of has turned towards this obsession with positivity and feeling good all the time, we are losing that ability to grow from our pain and our failures.
0:30:15 And I think you say this in the book, you say that everything you do, everything you are, everything you care about is a reflection of your choice, your relationships, health, work, emotional stability, your integrity, your breadth of your life experience.
0:30:20 If any of these things are fragile in your life, it’s because you’ve chosen to avoid pain.
0:30:23 I think that’s so powerful because it’s so true.
0:30:25 The way that you grow is through pain.
0:30:27 Let’s stick on that a little bit.
0:30:41 Tell us about how pain helps you grow and how if you don’t choose to accept pain and if you avoid pain, how you kind of stay as an adolescent and you don’t ever really grow up to be an actual adult.
0:30:42 Tell us about that.
0:30:56 So I think for me, and I define this in the book, but like what defines an adult or just being a mature, healthy individual is that ability to understand what is worth suffering for and when is it worth suffering for it.
0:31:05 In the simple example of like, say, a romantic relationship, for that relationship to grow, you have to understand when a fight needs to happen.
0:31:13 Some people, and I think kind of younger, more idealistic people, their idea of a good relationship is a relationship where you just never fight.
0:31:19 But it’s like, that’s not a healthy relationship because that means you’re hiding things, you’re pretending things are not happening.
0:31:22 And that makes you more fragile as a couple.
0:31:37 Whereas if you get very good at noticing the things that need to be addressed and being able to address them, even though you know you’re going to fight about it, you know it’s going to be painful, you know you’re going to be angry at each other for a day or two.
0:31:42 If you’re able to do that, you actually become a stronger unit.
0:31:43 Yeah, your bond is stronger.
0:31:44 For it.
0:31:45 It’s the same thing in business.
0:31:53 You know, if you’ve got employees that are messing up, like you can’t just pretend they’re not messing up.
0:31:54 Yeah.
0:31:55 You have to say something.
0:31:59 Or if you’ve got a co-worker that’s screwing around, like you have to say something.
0:32:00 Totally.
0:32:16 There are so many instances, you know, everywhere you kind of look in life, there’s like a skill set of understanding what pain is necessary for growth to occur and then having the ability to step into that pain.
0:32:20 I loved the fact that you brought up how like pain can strengthen relationships.
0:32:28 So just to relate to that a little bit, my listeners don’t really know this, I haven’t really shared this, but I shared it on LinkedIn, but not on my podcast.
0:32:32 I actually went home to take care of my whole family who got coronavirus.
0:32:44 So like my mom, my dad, my brother, and my brother was home from California and, you know, we haven’t spent that much time together in a long time, you know, and it was such a hard time.
0:32:52 But now I feel so close to my brother and my mom and everything because it’s like we like went through that crazy time together and we’ll never forget that.
0:32:53 And it sucked.
0:32:54 It was horrible.
0:33:01 But at the same time, like my relationship, particularly with my brother, is like so strengthened because we went through this horrible experience together.
0:33:06 So it’s just it’s funny how like even if it’s a horrible experience, there’s always some silver lining.
0:33:10 And actually, like that kind of pain can can grow a really big bond.
0:33:12 Absolutely.
0:33:15 And it’s I talked about this in my first book, Subtle Art.
0:33:24 I said that if you think about the most important experiences of your life, probably three out of four of them were negative experiences.
0:33:32 Very like a breakup, a death, losing a job like these all they’re horrible in the moment.
0:33:37 But like when you look back on them years and years later, you’re like, wow, I’m so glad that happened.
0:33:37 Yeah.
0:33:40 I’m such a such a better person for that happening.
0:33:44 So you say that living well does not mean avoid suffering.
0:33:46 It means suffering for the right reasons.
0:33:48 So tell us, what what do you suffer for?
0:33:53 What what suffering do you do to provide value in your life?
0:33:54 Well, I stay inside.
0:33:58 That’s that’s one way I suffer for the right reasons.
0:34:01 You know, I think there are a few fronts.
0:34:05 One, I think the most obvious example is just my career.
0:34:11 So it’s writing is I mean, it’s fun a lot of times, but a lot of times it’s suffering.
0:34:14 You know, it’s I’m finishing up another book right now.
0:34:19 And I went back to revise a chapter that I hadn’t looked at in a few months.
0:34:21 And I just looked at it and I’m like, this is terrible.
0:34:23 This is absolutely terrible.
0:34:26 And it’s just it’s like almost heartbreaking.
0:34:31 Like, I had to take the rest of the afternoon off because to have something that you’ve been
0:34:36 working on for over a year and you and you think you’re almost done and then you go look
0:34:40 at like an early part of it and you’re like, wow, that’s I can’t publish that.
0:34:41 That is awful.
0:34:43 It just flattens you.
0:34:51 And I think writing is it has its emotional struggles that a lot of people just don’t.
0:34:54 I seem to be constituted for it.
0:34:55 I like being alone.
0:34:57 I like working by myself.
0:35:01 I don’t mind rewriting something like eight different times.
0:35:05 And so that’s a that’s a form of suffering that I’m well adapted to.
0:35:08 And that I I even get a little bit of a sick pleasure out of.
0:35:14 And so it’s that’s kind of why it’s become my life is is, you know, one thing I always
0:35:20 say in my talks is that it’s not being good at something that’s not because you enjoy it
0:35:24 necessarily being good at something is you enjoy the sacrifices involved in it.
0:35:25 Totally.
0:35:30 In a way, it’s the thing you end up best at is just the pain you can tolerate better than
0:35:31 most other people.
0:35:34 We’ll be right back after a quick break from our sponsors.
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0:40:19 That’s kind of back to you’re in your dream job.
0:40:20 Not every job is perfect.
0:40:24 It’s like, what job do you enjoy the most?
0:40:27 Even the shitty parts of the job can you tolerate the most?
0:40:28 That’s how you find your dream job.
0:40:32 It’s not something that you like all the time and you’re always happy doing it.
0:40:37 It’s just like, the parts that do suck, are you able to manage that suffering enough?
0:40:42 Yeah, even if you’re in your dream job, your dream job is going to suck about 30% of the time.
0:40:44 There’s just no such thing.
0:40:45 We all have to do taxes.
0:40:51 There’s just no such thing as a job that is fun every single day when you do it.
0:40:57 So I do want to talk about the difference between a child, an adolescent, and an adult.
0:41:02 You say it’s not how old they are or what they do, but why they do something.
0:41:03 Can you unpack that for us?
0:41:04 Sure.
0:41:08 So when I go through this, I’m summarizing.
0:41:13 There’s a field called developmental psychology, and so I’m kind of just summarizing this entire field.
0:41:18 But basically, the human mind develops in a series of stages.
0:41:25 We don’t just come out of the womb knowing how to drive a car and send an email.
0:41:35 So when we’re kids, everything we understand about the world and understand about life is very much just derived from pleasure and pain.
0:41:37 Toys make us happy.
0:41:39 Candy makes us happy.
0:41:43 Falling off the bed makes us sad.
0:41:46 We don’t really think past that.
0:41:49 Kids aren’t able to think about the future.
0:41:52 They aren’t really able to reason about the past.
0:41:56 They aren’t able to think about other people’s feelings or what other people might do.
0:41:58 It’s just all they know is, like, this is fun.
0:41:59 This is not fun.
0:42:00 I want to do the fun thing.
0:42:04 As we get older, though, we start to realize things.
0:42:09 We start to realize that sometimes something is pleasurable now, but it causes pain later.
0:42:19 So maybe it feels good to eat, like, a pound of candy right now, but when I’m, like, sick in six hours.
0:42:22 You know, last time I did that, I got sick and I felt awful.
0:42:25 And so kids start to understand that there are repercussions for things.
0:42:28 They start to understand that there’s cause-effect.
0:42:34 They understand that other people have thoughts and feelings that are affected by their actions as well.
0:42:44 And so around late childhood or early adolescence, maybe around ages like eight, nine, ten, kids start to figure out that the world is very transactional.
0:42:50 Like, if I agree to do what mom says today, she will reward me tomorrow.
0:43:05 And so the adolescent phase is very much built off of a life of managing transactions, of understanding that if I behave in these certain ways, people will be nice to me and I will get good things that I want.
0:43:08 Now, the transactional approach to life is fine.
0:43:10 Like, we all need to be able to do it.
0:43:12 We all need to be able to think through those things.
0:43:16 But the problem is, is that it kind of objectifies everything.
0:43:23 So if, if your approach to all of your relationships is, well, I’m going to say this to Hala because I know she likes to hear that.
0:43:26 So if I say this, she’ll like me.
0:43:30 That’s great if I’m like trying to get a favor from you.
0:43:42 But if I’m trying to be a friend or if I’m a family member, that’s a really crappy way to have a personal relationship with somebody that like everything they say to you is based on what they think you want.
0:43:45 Like, it’s just, you can’t really operate in life that way.
0:43:56 And you run into the same thing, you know, if you look at businesses, for instance, like, some people are very good at the transactional game of, okay, if I put this product out or market it this way, I’ll get a lot of money.
0:43:58 That’s one way to play that game.
0:44:06 But at a certain point, you have to ask yourself, okay, maybe this will make me a lot of money, but am I screwing over my customers?
0:44:14 You know, am I willing to screw over my customers or am I willing to like break a law to add profit to my bottom line?
0:44:16 You start running into situations like that.
0:44:27 And so it’s only when you get to adulthood that you understand that sometimes you simply have to willingly take on pain for no other reason than it’s the right thing to do.
0:44:30 That it’s better for you in the long run.
0:44:31 It’s better for society in the long run.
0:44:33 It’s better for the people you care about in the long run.
0:44:47 And so a lot of kind of like the highest virtuous concepts that we’ve had throughout human history, things like honesty, charity, compassion, these are all things that can really only be attained in adulthood.
0:44:58 You know, I have to be willing to sacrifice myself for my family or willingly sacrifice myself or give up potential profits to make sure my employees are taken care of.
0:45:07 You know, it’s those sorts of actions and behaviors can only occur once you’ve kind of transcended this transactional view of the world.
0:45:08 And so that’s the adult view.
0:45:09 Yeah.
0:45:14 And if I remember correctly from your book, to think and act like an adult, you need to endure pain.
0:45:21 You need to abandon hope and you need to let go of the desire for more pleasant and fun things.
0:45:23 Like, and you have to act unconditionally.
0:45:25 That’s something else that I remember.
0:45:26 Yes, the unconditionality.
0:45:26 Yeah.
0:45:27 Yeah.
0:45:35 And the thing about adulthood, I mean, I go kind of hardcore on it, but I think people should understand that it’s like an ideal.
0:45:48 And I even mentioned that often this kind of ideal, this like selflessness of adulthood is something that’s been canonized and crystallized in religious myths and heroes and stories and things like that.
0:45:51 Like, none of us are actually like fully that way all the time.
0:45:52 Yeah, it’s impossible.
0:45:59 We’ve all still got like our inner child that like just wants to drink ice cream for the next three hours.
0:46:05 You know, and then we’ve all got the adolescent in us who’s like, maybe I can scheme a little bit and get a little bit more for myself.
0:46:09 Like it’s, those things never, you never completely leave those things.
0:46:11 It’s like what point of the spectrum are you on?
0:46:11 Totally.
0:46:15 So one of the other topics, there’s so much content in your book.
0:46:19 I’m actually having a hard time like trying to grab everything that I need to talk about.
0:46:24 This is definitely one of the hardest interviews that I’ve had in terms of that, of tying everything together.
0:46:28 But one thing that I wanted to talk about is fake freedom versus real freedom.
0:46:32 I thought this was really important for my listeners to understand your perspective on.
0:46:33 Can you talk to us about that?
0:46:41 Yeah, I feel like this is very important in this day and age and especially in the U.S.
0:46:50 I think if you look historically, the idea of freedom and liberty is not what we traditionally think of it today.
0:47:00 Today, we think of freedom and liberty as simply being able to do whatever the hell we want when we want to do it without being constrained by any sort of outside force whatsoever.
0:47:06 In my opinion, this is a very childlike, entitled version of freedom.
0:47:12 This idea that it’s like, I should be able to do whatever the hell I want and f*** you if you don’t like it.
0:47:19 That is like an angry child sitting on the floor of a grocery store demanding that he can eat as much candy as he wants.
0:47:21 The truth is that we all live in a society.
0:47:26 We all have to make compromises because we are all better off for it.
0:47:33 And the truth as well is that when you do indulge everything you want, it makes you more fragile.
0:47:35 It makes you a weaker human being.
0:47:39 It makes you a more susceptible individual to outside forces.
0:47:46 In chapter 8 of the book, I spend that whole chapter kind of arguing that we need to redefine freedom
0:47:54 the same way that the philosophers and the Greeks and Romans understood it, which is that freedom is the ability to choose what to give up.
0:47:57 Freedom is choosing what you will sacrifice.
0:48:05 And so freedom is not sitting on the couch eating whatever the hell you want for the rest of your life.
0:48:13 Freedom is actually getting up at 6 in the morning and going to the gym because by building up your body,
0:48:17 you are actually giving yourself more options for the future.
0:48:23 By limiting options today, by choosing which options you’re going to limit today, by choosing not to eat Cheetos,
0:48:28 you are giving yourself more options in the long run.
0:48:32 And so freedom is actually, it’s a personal form of discipline.
0:48:40 It’s a constant choice of what sacrifice am I going to bring into my life and what is going to be important to me.
0:48:45 And so in that sense, I see things like, and I just have to bring this up because we’re in the middle of it now,
0:48:51 like there are people protesting during this coronavirus thing saying that the government shouldn’t tell me to stay home,
0:48:53 I shouldn’t have to stay home, blah, blah, blah.
0:49:02 You know, and it’s like, it’s like, guys, you can’t, like, you’re okay if the government tells you you can’t smoke next to a pregnant person
0:49:03 or like you can’t smoke in a restaurant.
0:49:09 You know, you’re fine if the government tells you you can’t scream fire at a theater.
0:49:11 How is this any different?
0:49:18 At some point you have to, you have to accept that it’s not about what you, freedom is not about what you individually want.
0:49:26 It is about what you are individually capable of sacrificing and giving up both for yourself and for the greater good.
0:49:35 And also because I think you talk about this in your book that if freedom is variety or, you know, unlimited experiences,
0:49:39 like you’ll never be satisfied, you’ll never actually be free because you’ll never be satisfied,
0:49:43 there’ll always be something else that you’re trying to attain and so you’ll never really be free.
0:49:48 You say that freedom isn’t what you can experience, it’s what you can limit yourself to.
0:49:51 I think that’s really powerful stuff.
0:49:55 Okay, so the last question I’m going to ask, it’s on the last chapter of your book.
0:50:00 You ask us to abandon hope all throughout the book, but when I was reading your last chapter,
0:50:09 it’s clear that you have hope in science and technology and AI, and you imagine the world in the future where AI has taken over humans
0:50:13 and ultimately does a better job of running the show than we do.
0:50:17 And that’s terrifying, but then it’s oddly hopeful.
0:50:23 So talk to our listeners about this world that you imagine in the future with AI.
0:50:27 Well, first I would argue that it’s not even the future really.
0:50:29 It’s already happening.
0:50:34 I think AI runs the world better than humans in many ways already.
0:50:37 You know, the last chapter is a little bit tongue-in-cheek.
0:50:42 It’s a little bit just me being a little bit crazy and being like, you know what, let’s see how far I can take this.
0:50:50 I kind of, one of the more tragic things I talk about in the book is that ultimately we do have to hope for something,
0:50:56 but our hopes inevitably end up causing everything to be f***ed.
0:51:03 You know, it’s everything is f***ed, which is why we need hope, but then it’s our hopes are what cause everything to be f***ed.
0:51:05 So it’s kind of like this vicious cycle that keeps happening.
0:51:06 Yeah.
0:51:09 And it’s just kind of an inherent part of our psychology.
0:51:11 There’s not really any way around it.
0:51:20 And so really the message of the book is like, since we can’t get rid of hope, we have to just be very, very careful about what we hope for.
0:51:31 And the last chapter is kind of my very, very careful, slightly facetious hopes, which is just that I personally think, you know,
0:51:39 one of the cornerstones of my personal philosophy and kind of all my work in general is that humans suck.
0:51:51 Like we are just, we’re not, the human mind is not very well equipped to handle global, ethical, moral questions.
0:51:57 If you look at human history, it’s just full of violence and screw ups and disasters.
0:52:04 So it’s my starting point is like, if there’s any way we’re going to kind of save ourselves from ourselves,
0:52:09 it’s going to happen via science and technology in some form.
0:52:18 So that is the thing, the one thing I dare to hope for, although I am also very skeptical of my own hopes.
0:52:18 Yeah.
0:52:21 Well, I hope our AI masters are nice to us.
0:52:24 Exactly.
0:52:25 And they’re not evil.
0:52:26 Okay, cool.
0:52:32 So the last question I ask all my guests is, what is your secret to profiting in life?
0:52:34 Oh, the secret of profiting in life.
0:52:42 I think if you just make it a habit to give more value than you consume, good things will happen everywhere.
0:52:45 It’ll happen with people in relationships.
0:52:46 It’ll happen in business.
0:52:48 It’ll happen in your own life.
0:52:53 Like it’s just build a habit of give more than you take.
0:52:54 I love that.
0:52:56 That reminds me of David Meltzer.
0:52:58 Thank you so much, Mark.
0:52:59 You have such great content.
0:53:00 Your books are amazing.
0:53:03 I would highly recommend everybody to go get your latest book.
0:53:04 Everything is f***ed.
0:53:05 You can find it everywhere.
0:53:08 And thanks so much for your time today.
0:53:09 Thanks for having me.
0:53:10 Thank you.
0:53:52 Thank you.

0:00:02 All right, a sentence that has never been said before.
0:00:07 B2B enterprise HR software space is the most riveting,
0:00:11 the most compelling espionage story you’ll ever hear.
0:00:13 I feel like this episode is going to have to start with the Netflix, like,
0:00:17 because this is a Netflix original level drama.
0:00:20 I feel like I can rule the world.
0:00:22 I know I could be what I want to.
0:00:25 I put my all in it like no day’s off.
0:00:27 On the road, let’s travel, never look it back.
0:00:30 So, all right, we got to do this story.
0:00:34 Parker Conrad, who is the CEO of a company called Rippling,
0:00:39 they do like payroll as well as other kind of back office stuff for startups,
0:00:43 tweeted, came out two days ago and said,
0:00:45 Rippling sued Deal today.
0:00:50 Our lawsuit alleges that Deal cultivated a spy at Rippling
0:00:52 and orchestrated a long-running trade secret theft.
0:00:56 The spy searched Deal in our system 23 times a day on average,
0:00:59 letting him spy on Deal’s own customers who were considering switching to Rippling.
0:01:03 And then he posts screenshots of the lawsuit.
0:01:04 Did you read this?
0:01:04 Yes.
0:01:07 And we should preface this saying, I think you have friends at Deal.
0:01:08 I’m an investor in Deal.
0:01:10 So, I invested in Deal many years ago.
0:01:11 It’s one of the best investments.
0:01:12 I really like Alex.
0:01:13 I don’t know him super well.
0:01:15 Like, we’re not like buddy-buddy.
0:01:18 But like, Alex, the founder of Deal, I think is awesome.
0:01:20 And I use Deal.
0:01:21 I think Deal’s a great product.
0:01:25 And so, that’s kind of my bias and context coming in is,
0:01:27 I like Deal and I invested in Deal.
0:01:28 And when I talk about this…
0:01:33 Everything here, it’s allegedly, and it’s also, this is just what the lawsuit says.
0:01:35 And also, it’s just comedy for me.
0:01:38 Like, I don’t know about any of this.
0:01:43 And I am just, like everybody else on Twitter, this is for entertainment for me.
0:01:45 So, please don’t take this too seriously.
0:01:47 What’s the baseline story?
0:01:48 Okay.
0:01:51 So, basically, the story is, Rippling notices, he’s saying,
0:01:54 we noticed somebody was looking up Deal a lot in our systems.
0:01:57 So, then, this is where it gets good.
0:02:00 He’s like, so we created a honeypot.
0:02:01 The best.
0:02:05 The story behind this is basically, like, I don’t,
0:02:08 I wouldn’t even be smart enough to come up with the idea of this.
0:02:09 This is amazing.
0:02:14 So, the way it worked was, I think I read that it was Rippling’s founder
0:02:19 and their legal team and maybe one other executive were in a room one night
0:02:22 saying to themselves, dude, Deal is spying on us.
0:02:22 What is going on?
0:02:24 How do we catch them?
0:02:25 And they said, let’s…
0:02:27 Do you know, how did they know they were spying?
0:02:31 Like, is it really that they just noticed on the logs this guy was searching Deal a lot?
0:02:32 That sounds so crazy.
0:02:32 Yeah.
0:02:36 So, there’s always, you know, no matter how thin a pancake, there’s always two sides.
0:02:37 That’s what my dad always tells me.
0:02:38 So, I don’t know.
0:02:40 But we only, that’s a good one, right?
0:02:40 Yeah.
0:02:42 We only know this side.
0:02:46 So, this side is that they had a suspicion and then they’re sitting there one night and
0:02:47 they go, I got it.
0:02:53 Let’s make a screenshot or let’s actually make a fake Slack channel that no one at the company
0:02:53 knows about.
0:02:59 And we’re going to call it Deal Defectors, meaning all of Deal’s ex-employees who now
0:03:02 work at Rippling, they’re talking trash about Deal and they’re spilling the beans.
0:03:08 Turns out that was a channel that no one at the Rippling was a part of, but they emailed
0:03:11 the Deal team and they go, this exists and you would love to see it.
0:03:18 And then the next day after sending the letter, they notice someone tried to log in to this
0:03:19 Deal Defectors Slack channel.
0:03:24 And that seems strange since the only people who know about this are Deal’s three people
0:03:28 on their executive team and Rippling’s three-person executive team.
0:03:29 And it wasn’t us, Rippling.
0:03:35 Therefore, it had to be one of the Deal executives who knew about this espionage and spying situation
0:03:38 and had access to the back end of Rippling’s login.
0:03:38 Is that right?
0:03:39 I think that’s right.
0:03:40 So that’s allegedly what happens.
0:03:45 So they go to the local authorities, because I think this is happening in Ireland, by the way,
0:03:47 like he’s working at the Ireland, the Dublin office.
0:03:52 And they go to local authorities, they get like whatever, the ability to kind of like subpoena
0:03:53 his phone.
0:04:00 So I guess what happened is, person comes in, says, hey, you’ve been served, you need
0:04:02 to hand over your phone right now.
0:04:05 And he says, oh, it’s upstairs in my bag.
0:04:06 Like, all right, let’s go get it.
0:04:10 So they go up, they look in the bag, just a laptop in there, no phone.
0:04:13 And they’re like, okay, where’s the phone?
0:04:14 He’s like, I got to go to the bathroom.
0:04:18 So he goes to the bathroom, locks himself in the bathroom real quick.
0:04:25 And then the story goes, the person heard him doing something, quote, doing something
0:04:26 on his phone.
0:04:32 And he’s knocking on the door, basically shouting at him like, hey, if you delete anything on
0:04:34 that phone, you’re in violation of the law.
0:04:41 And the story goes, that the spy goes, that’s a risk I have to take.
0:04:42 He said that?
0:04:44 That’s a risk I’m willing to take.
0:04:45 He said that?
0:04:47 That’s what they wrote at this thing.
0:04:53 So they hear a flush, they hear a flush, and then the guy flees the premises.
0:04:54 They don’t get the phone.
0:05:01 And then Rippling orders somebody to go check the plumbing of the building to see if he flushed
0:05:03 a phone, couldn’t find a phone in there, no phone.
0:05:07 And so that’s where the story stands today.
0:05:11 And then that’s why they came out publicly and tried to like, you know, win this in the
0:05:13 court of public opinion instead.
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0:05:47 Can I give three little bits of advice to anyone listening?
0:05:51 If you’re ever going to get in trouble, one, don’t say shit.
0:05:53 Do not say that’s a risk I’m going to take.
0:05:54 Don’t say anything.
0:05:56 Just say, yeah, I don’t want to talk or give me a lawyer.
0:06:03 The second thing, don’t write down anything that you’d be afraid for to be found in discovery.
0:06:06 And three, do not delete messages when you think you’re in trouble.
0:06:07 That’s against the law.
0:06:10 Dude, I don’t know if any of this is true.
0:06:11 There’s a whole bunch of back and forth.
0:06:14 So here’s a bit of the other side of the story.
0:06:17 So I think someone from Deal came out.
0:06:20 And here’s what a Deal spokesperson said.
0:06:26 Weeks after Rippling is accused of violating sanctions law in Russia and ceding falsehoods
0:06:31 about Deal, Rippling is trying to shift the narrative with these sensationalized claims.
0:06:35 We deny all legal wrongdoing and look forward to asserting our counterclaims.
0:06:35 All right.
0:06:38 I, too, look forward to them asserting their counterclaims.
0:06:42 You know, what’s funny is I lived in San Francisco and I was a…
0:06:45 So the guy who started Rippling, I was a customer.
0:06:46 His name is Parker Conrad.
0:06:49 Parker previously started Zenefits.
0:06:56 And back in 13 or 14 or 15, that era, I think Zenefits was the fastest growing company ever.
0:07:00 I think it grew to like 100 million in revenue, something insane.
0:07:12 And Parker, from what I remember, he got fired by the board because Zenefits was like a payroll and benefits company, which means you need to be pretty uptight.
0:07:14 And I think that he was accused of being a little loosey-goosey.
0:07:24 Like, it was like people were, if I remember correctly, the articles were like people at the parties were like having sex in the hallways or something insane like that.
0:07:24 And like…
0:07:25 I don’t think that was the…
0:07:28 Well, maybe that was happening, but I don’t think that was the issue that got him in trouble.
0:07:30 But that was like a canary in the court.
0:07:38 It was like, dude, this guy, like he does it, like not everyone has their health benefits license, something, some license like that, that you need to sell benefits.
0:07:44 I guess in order to like be a broker, a licensed broker, you had to have it in like every state that you were operating in.
0:07:45 That’s what it was.
0:07:46 There’s a bunch of compliance things.
0:07:55 And what had happened was either some people didn’t have it or there was another thing, which was he had created a macro, like a piece of software that would just take the tests for you.
0:07:56 Yeah, that’s what it was.
0:08:02 You could like speed through this and get your license like way faster to keep up with the growth and like, kind of like you didn’t actually do it yourself.
0:08:05 And I think that’s when he got in a lot of trouble.
0:08:09 And he’s got, again, in this case, you know, like basically he got shamed.
0:08:10 He got kicked out of the company.
0:08:11 David Sachs took over.
0:08:14 David Sachs, who was his COO and big investor.
0:08:21 I think Sachs had put in like 10 or $20 million of his own money into the company and then came in as COO because it was like the next big hot startup.
0:08:26 And then this came out and then Sachs basically threw Conrad under the bus.
0:08:29 But they use like the, these guys are partying, they’re banging in the hallways.
0:08:31 Yeah, just made it look like the whole thing was a mess, whatever.
0:08:32 Yeah.
0:08:36 And then, and so took over and he got basically the shaft.
0:08:38 And then Rippling was sort of his revenge company.
0:08:42 But yeah, this guy finds himself in some drama, I guess.
0:08:43 Parker likes to party.
0:08:45 Parker’s putting the PA at party.
0:08:47 I mean, he’s like, he likes to get down.
0:08:50 And now I’m hearing about, I didn’t know about this Russia stuff.
0:08:52 So Parker lives, lives life on the edge.
0:08:56 And, you know, he’s kind of the bad boy, the HR SaaS industry.
0:08:58 What can, you know, what can he say?
0:09:01 He needs to go Jensen leather jacket.
0:09:04 Just pure snakeskin.
0:09:08 Oh, the bad boy of HR SaaS is here.
0:09:11 I like Parker.
0:09:12 Parker parties, man.
0:09:14 Like he just, he gets down.
0:09:16 He’s always finds himself in a sticky situation.
0:09:17 Sign me up.
0:09:21 Parker should come on to MFM and we should go hang out.
0:09:23 But this guy likes to party, you know?
0:09:24 All right.
0:09:27 So, all right.
0:09:29 A lot of uninformed speculation here.
0:09:31 I feel like we’re going to get hit with a lawsuit.
0:09:34 What’s he going to say?
0:09:34 That he doesn’t party?
0:09:38 Like, is that slander?
0:09:41 Parker’s ring doorbell has shown him to be home before 8 p.m.
0:09:42 Every night.
0:09:46 Does Parker, does the man in the polo and jeans not like to get down?
0:09:48 We deny these allegations.
0:09:50 All right.
0:09:51 So, okay, whatever.
0:09:53 So, there’s the deal rippling thing.
0:09:55 There’s a bunch of funny tweets about this.
0:09:56 It’s just good comedy.
0:09:58 I have actually a different angle here.
0:10:01 I don’t know if you have anything else you want to say on this, but I have a different
0:10:05 angle, which was, got me thinking, what are some other great examples of corporate espionage
0:10:05 in history?
0:10:07 And I have some for you, Sam.
0:10:08 Oh, okay.
0:10:08 Cool.
0:10:09 I like that.
0:10:10 All right.
0:10:11 So, so check this out.
0:10:17 I went down a little rabbit hole and I tried to find, you know, examples of great corporate
0:10:21 corporate espionage cases that have happened in the past.
0:10:25 I want to start with the British East India Company.
0:10:26 Okay.
0:10:27 Are you prepared for this?
0:10:33 So, basically back in the day, we’re talking about like the 1800s, the British East India
0:10:34 Company.
0:10:39 Basically, it was a trade, it was a trading company between the UK and India.
0:10:39 Okay.
0:10:41 And they did two notable things.
0:10:44 One, which is unrelated to corporate espionage.
0:10:46 Did you know they had their own corporate army?
0:10:50 Well, I know that they were like the, the, the ballers of the earth.
0:10:55 They like started in like 1600s and like, uh, basically like helped shape global trade.
0:11:00 So they were so prolific that like other parts of Europe, like basically they were attacked
0:11:02 on their trade routes and there was like a lot of security concerns.
0:11:07 So they formed their own corporate military, which is pretty badass.
0:11:11 And I think, you know, if I’m perplexity or something like that, if I’m like the third
0:11:15 or fourth tier AI company right now, might just spin up a corporate military just to put
0:11:18 some shine on me and what I’m doing, make it seem like I got some trade secrets that I need
0:11:19 to protect.
0:11:22 Like just armed guards going through Soma.
0:11:23 It’d be amazing.
0:11:24 Yeah.
0:11:29 I think that every company needs like a fake enemy or a fake, uh, emergency to prepare
0:11:30 for.
0:11:31 I think it’s good for them.
0:11:36 It’s like when I used to be in college and, um, we would go out and, you know, I’d be at
0:11:41 the bar and just a lot of strikeouts going on, you know, pretty low batting average, pretty
0:11:42 low slugging percentage.
0:11:45 Taking a lot of L’s.
0:11:47 What was your cold approach open?
0:11:52 What was my cold approach open?
0:11:53 Okay, here we go.
0:11:53 Ready?
0:11:55 Sam, just turn around.
0:11:56 I’ll be the girl.
0:11:56 I’m going to be the girl.
0:11:59 And now you’re just going to feel my body coming close to you.
0:12:00 Yeah, so I was hanging out with this guy.
0:12:00 Wait, hold on.
0:12:02 What, what, what is this?
0:12:04 Oh, you didn’t want to grind?
0:12:04 Oh.
0:12:05 Oh, shit.
0:12:05 No.
0:12:07 Okay, my bad.
0:12:08 Totally thought you wanted to grind.
0:12:12 That was it?
0:12:16 The mistake grind with the immediate apology shtick?
0:12:18 That was if it was on the dance floor.
0:12:19 All right.
0:12:21 If we’re not on the dance floor, if we’re at the bar, ready?
0:12:22 Yeah.
0:12:23 So I’m just turned around.
0:12:24 I’m looking over here.
0:12:25 I’m just hanging out.
0:12:26 Hey.
0:12:28 Yeah?
0:12:30 Do they do drinks here?
0:12:33 Question.
0:12:34 Just an innocent question.
0:12:36 That was it?
0:12:40 Mine used to be, hey, Selvabette, how many oceans are there?
0:12:41 Five or seven?
0:12:43 Oh, wow.
0:12:43 That’s great.
0:12:46 This was, I’m talking about pre-reading the book, The Game.
0:12:51 Once I read the book, The Game, then it was, hey, you guys got to settle an argument here.
0:12:56 And I just literally ripped the line from the book where it’s like, my roommate’s girlfriend
0:13:01 is making him throw away all the pictures of his ex-girlfriend in his apartment.
0:13:02 Is that crazy?
0:13:05 Or is she, we think she’s crazy.
0:13:06 Is that crazy?
0:13:08 And they’re like, no, you got to get rid of that.
0:13:10 And it’s like, oh, do you want to be my girlfriend?
0:13:10 No?
0:13:11 Okay.
0:13:11 Nevermind.
0:13:13 Do you know what the worst line is?
0:13:18 is when I would steal all of the lines from the game, and then one out of 10 times, a
0:13:22 woman would reply and say, yeah, I read the game too, you douche.
0:13:25 And it was just like, you go home so sad.
0:13:27 That was the worst.
0:13:28 I would have thought that worked.
0:13:29 We have so much in common.
0:13:30 We love the same books.
0:13:34 I didn’t have that turn shit into gold type of persona back then.
0:13:36 You know, I was still just-
0:13:41 Dude, there’s a reason I was single for like, not just all four years of college, but even
0:13:42 two years after college.
0:13:44 Like it was, it was a long, it was a long drought.
0:13:50 I felt like the British East India Company just marching through the drought.
0:13:53 That’s not exactly a drought because the drought implies that that’s not normal.
0:13:56 Well, yeah, exactly.
0:13:57 I guess it’s just a desert.
0:13:59 Yes.
0:14:02 What are, what are some other ones?
0:14:05 Wait, by the way, have you ever done this with a company?
0:14:06 Done what?
0:14:07 Corporate espionage?
0:14:08 Do you think I’m cool enough to do that?
0:14:15 Like my, uh, my extent of it was like having a friend at Facebook and them like telling
0:14:17 me like what my competitors are doing.
0:14:19 Uh, I’ve been there, done that a few times.
0:14:20 Yeah.
0:14:21 Yeah.
0:14:23 No, I’ve never done anything this cool.
0:14:23 I don’t think.
0:14:26 Um, but you know, okay.
0:14:28 Like I’ll tell you this British East India Company story.
0:14:28 All right.
0:14:33 So back in the day, China had like a monopoly on tea production.
0:14:35 And this was a big problem.
0:14:36 Tea was super popular.
0:14:41 China made all the tea and, um, nobody could figure out how to make the tea.
0:14:42 Nobody had the, like the seeds.
0:14:45 Nobody had any of the stuff you needed to like try to break that.
0:14:49 So they were all trading with China to get tea, but they didn’t have anything to trade
0:14:49 back with China.
0:14:51 So there was these huge trade imbalances.
0:14:58 And so basically Britain, I think it was trading like opium into China as this only thing I
0:15:00 could get into China and China didn’t like that.
0:15:02 And it created what was called the first opium war.
0:15:06 And so there’s literally a war broke out because of this trade imbalance with the tea.
0:15:12 And so what happens is the British decide to, to do something about this.
0:15:14 And so let me tell you this story real quick.
0:15:19 So the East India Company, the British East India Company hire this guy named Robert Fortune.
0:15:23 He’s a Scottish botanist and adventurer and they paid him.
0:15:27 They were like, you are going to infiltrate China and you are going to steal the tea industry
0:15:29 secrets of China.
0:15:33 And by the way, Google a picture of this guy, because I don’t know how he pulled this off.
0:15:40 He looks like a Scottish man, but he disguised himself as a Chinese merchant and went underground.
0:15:42 He was wearing Chinese clothing, Chinese hairstyle.
0:15:46 He traveled deep into China’s tea region, which is actually off limits to foreigners.
0:15:51 And he was able to get access in and he studied tea production step by step.
0:15:54 Everything for planting, harvesting, drying, packaging, all of it.
0:15:55 He didn’t just observe.
0:15:58 He was able to collect thousands of tea plants, seeds, equipment.
0:16:00 This guy was supposed to be Chinese?
0:16:01 This guy was supposed to be Chinese.
0:16:02 I don’t know how he did it, but incredible.
0:16:03 He looks like me.
0:16:06 He’s you with sideburns.
0:16:07 Yeah.
0:16:08 Sick chops.
0:16:16 So he not only that, then he started recruiting like a, like turning other people.
0:16:20 So he started recruiting Chinese tea growers, hiring them and persuading them to leave China
0:16:21 secretly and relocate to India.
0:16:24 And basically he pulled it off.
0:16:26 He goes and he steals the trade secrets.
0:16:27 He hires the tea growers.
0:16:29 He smuggles them out of the country.
0:16:32 He brings the seeds, the tools, the knowledge, the trade secrets.
0:16:34 He gets to India and they start growing tea.
0:16:40 And soon after that, India surpassed China in terms of its tea production, broke the
0:16:46 Chinese monopoly on tea and prevented future wars, actually de-escalated the conflict because
0:16:49 now there wasn’t this huge trade imbalance, an opium problem.
0:16:52 That’s insane that this guy pulled this off.
0:16:53 How long was he in China for?
0:16:55 I think this was like a multi-year thing.
0:16:57 How exciting.
0:17:00 That’s a life worth living.
0:17:01 Let me give you some other ones.
0:17:01 All right.
0:17:03 So now let me give you a more modern example.
0:17:05 Oracle versus Microsoft.
0:17:06 Have you heard this story?
0:17:07 No.
0:17:07 All right.
0:17:09 So two giants, two successful companies.
0:17:13 Microsoft, if you remember in the 90s, was doing antitrust cases.
0:17:16 And Bill Gates, there’s videos of this on YouTube.
0:17:21 He’s like in depositions and they just were getting hauled in front of the antitrust committees
0:17:22 and they had to defend themselves.
0:17:25 So he was being accused of a monopoly.
0:17:26 Monopolistic behaviors.
0:17:29 And this really was a problem for Microsoft.
0:17:30 It slowed them down.
0:17:34 I think it’s called like the lost decade, where basically like for a long period of time,
0:17:35 Microsoft couldn’t acquire companies.
0:17:39 They couldn’t like, if something got hot, they couldn’t release a competitor and kind
0:17:43 of use their distribution to win because they had just gone through this like, you know,
0:17:44 antitrust problem.
0:17:44 They had to lay low.
0:17:45 They had to lay low.
0:17:46 Exactly.
0:17:55 And so Microsoft, while it’s in this situation, Oracle hires all these private investigators
0:17:59 to go and dig up dirt on Microsoft during this period of time.
0:18:01 And it gets found out.
0:18:02 But what they were doing was pretty smart.
0:18:07 Instead of digging up dirt on Microsoft, they were going to all these other companies that
0:18:08 were supposed to be independent.
0:18:13 Like they were kind of coming out and providing like testimonials or testimony in support of
0:18:13 Microsoft.
0:18:18 And it was like, oh, this independent council, like the, uh, the independent, uh, the independent
0:18:22 Institute, the national taxpayers union, they’re coming out in support of Microsoft here.
0:18:25 And Larry Ellison from Oracle is like, nah, no way.
0:18:29 And so Oracle hires these private investigators to go dumpster diving.
0:18:34 And so they’re digging through the trash of these, of these independent organizations, finding
0:18:38 links where they got paid by Microsoft and they get caught.
0:18:42 They get caught doing this, but they’re also caught that Microsoft funded these organizations.
0:18:45 And so they go to Larry Ellison.
0:18:47 He’s like, look, I had nothing to do with this.
0:18:49 I wasn’t made aware of it till the end.
0:18:50 Um, and I agree.
0:18:55 This was a bit unsavory, but he goes, uh, he goes corporate espionage.
0:18:57 This is a public service.
0:18:59 We’re doing our civic duty here.
0:19:03 We are taking hidden information about how Microsoft was funding these supposed independent
0:19:05 orgs and we were making it public.
0:19:09 We are, we’re doing, we’re doing God’s work out here and just calling it public service
0:19:11 and is doing his civic duty.
0:19:13 I thought was an incredible spin.
0:19:19 All right, my friends, I have exciting news for that business idea.
0:19:21 That’s been sitting in your notes app.
0:19:24 The hustle, which is my old company has partnered with indie hackers.
0:19:28 One of my favorite websites to launch a pitch competition.
0:19:30 It’s called the hustles big break.
0:19:32 And it’s a pitch competition with a simple premise.
0:19:38 You tell us your business idea in 60 seconds or less, and the winner gets $5,000 to turn
0:19:38 it into a reality.
0:19:40 Here’s how it works.
0:19:42 Record a 60 second video pitch of your business idea.
0:19:45 Include your business name, description, revenue model, and tagline.
0:19:50 And finally, submit it at the hustle.co slash big break.
0:19:53 And it all has to be done by April 4th.
0:19:56 The winner gets $5,000 in cash to kickstart their business journey.
0:20:01 Plus we’re going to feature them in the hustles daily newsletter, which is read by around a million
0:20:01 and a half people.
0:20:04 And these are the smartest business and tech folks out there.
0:20:07 The winner will be announced on April 11th.
0:20:13 So again, if you have a business idea, go to the hustle.co slash big break.
0:20:14 All right, back to the pop.
0:20:23 The other day, in an Elon Musk interview, someone asked him, I think it was like Ted Cruz, was
0:20:25 like, who do you, you know, you’re, a lot of people think you’re smart.
0:20:26 Who do you consider smart?
0:20:29 And the first person he said was Larry Elson.
0:20:30 Elon said that?
0:20:31 Yeah.
0:20:32 He goes, he goes, Larry Elson.
0:20:35 He goes, I think Larry Elson is one of the smarter people I work with.
0:20:40 He said, you remember from Forrest Gump where he says, stupid is as stupid does.
0:20:43 Elon goes, smart is as smart does.
0:20:46 So he took the inverse of that line, which I thought was pretty funny.
0:20:49 He goes, smart is as smart does.
0:20:51 And I think Larry Elson might be the smartest person I know.
0:20:58 And so it’s pretty funny that I didn’t, up until Larry kind of got a little bit more front
0:21:04 facing with some of these things, I didn’t, I regarded him as like just a guy who, he kind
0:21:05 of just started early and became the best.
0:21:11 I didn’t realize how sharky, not necessarily a bad way that he actually was though.
0:21:11 Yeah.
0:21:12 How elite he is.
0:21:13 Wow.
0:21:14 That’s amazing.
0:21:16 Elon, I think took some of his spin.
0:21:20 Remember when he like, he impregnated that woman who works with him and he was just like,
0:21:23 underpopulation is the biggest crisis we face.
0:21:25 And like turned it into, I’m saving the planet.
0:21:26 Yeah.
0:21:27 And I was like, whoa.
0:21:29 Playa.
0:21:35 Playa with no R at the end, man.
0:21:36 That is incredible.
0:21:42 Like, can you imagine having the balls to just, to just come out and not just defend
0:21:47 it, not deny it, but to claim that you’re doing good.
0:21:51 That’s like a story that’s like, at high school, when you’re hanging out with your buddies, smoking
0:21:54 weed late at night, and you’re just like riffing and saying the dumb shit you’re going to do
0:21:55 in the next morning when you’re sober.
0:21:59 Like, we’re going to go, dude, we’re changing it out.
0:22:01 We’re going to get up and we’re going to like, we’re going to start working out first thing
0:22:02 in the morning.
0:22:04 That’s like a thing that Elon would say.
0:22:05 I mean, it’s crazy.
0:22:08 It’s like, hey, like, don’t you think it’s kind of inappropriate?
0:22:09 You know, she works with you.
0:22:10 She’s an executive of your company.
0:22:11 Maybe there’s an imbalance of power here.
0:22:13 Like, are you concerned about this at all?
0:22:15 He’s like, I’m concerned about underpopulation.
0:22:17 It’s like, wow, holy shit.
0:22:19 Nick Cannon, just like writing notes out there.
0:22:20 All right.
0:22:21 Here’s some other ones.
0:22:22 Coke versus Pepsi.
0:22:25 Dude, did Nick Cannon just catch a straight bullet on that one?
0:22:25 Yeah.
0:22:29 He’s like, he’s like the icon for too many kids, dude.
0:22:31 Dude, it’s 8, 8, so not Nick Cannon.
0:22:35 So 2006, Coke versus Pepsi.
0:22:37 Another, you know, deal rippling.
0:22:40 Microsoft Oracle, Coke, Pepsi.
0:22:42 These are all just like the legendary rivalries.
0:22:49 So an EA at Coke who’s disgruntled, this woman, Joya Williams, decides, you know what?
0:22:50 Screw it.
0:22:54 She leaves her post as a EA, and she steals basically some trade secrets.
0:23:00 She takes a new, a can of their new product that’s unreleased, and she writes a letter to
0:23:02 Pepsi, and she says, I have the formula for Coke.
0:23:04 Do you want the secret formula?
0:23:06 And I have a new unreleased product.
0:23:10 She sends a letter, and she says, I’ll give you the formula for a price.
0:23:11 Guess what her price was?
0:23:14 A hundred grand, a million, I don’t know.
0:23:15 $1.5 million.
0:23:16 And what year?
0:23:17 2006.
0:23:18 All right.
0:23:20 So it’s about $3 million today.
0:23:24 Pepsi, being the good guy that it is, says, you know what?
0:23:25 Not doing it.
0:23:27 They tell Coke.
0:23:29 They say, hey, you have this woman.
0:23:30 She’s trying to sell your formula.
0:23:31 We don’t want it.
0:23:35 Let’s me, you, and the FBI, let’s take this woman down.
0:23:38 And what they do is they set up a sting operation.
0:23:42 And so she comes out, and she’s ready to sell the formula.
0:23:46 They do a test payment for $4,000 to show that they’re legit.
0:23:50 They record her saying what she has and that she’s doing this trade.
0:23:52 And then they lock her up.
0:23:52 They arrest her.
0:23:54 And she goes to prison for eight years.
0:23:55 Wow.
0:23:56 Isn’t that crazy?
0:23:57 Wow.
0:23:58 That’s a lot.
0:23:59 Maybe like a few.
0:24:00 Maybe too much.
0:24:01 Yeah.
0:24:02 Maybe too much.
0:24:03 Maybe a few months.
0:24:06 Dude, Pepsi, you guys suck.
0:24:07 Maybe promote her.
0:24:07 I don’t know.
0:24:10 Eight years in prison seems like it was a lot for that.
0:24:13 So yeah, she got made an example out of.
0:24:14 That’s crazy.
0:24:16 This was like a recent story.
0:24:16 2006.
0:24:22 So it looks like her boyfriend was also in on it.
0:24:24 This was like a legit scheme.
0:24:26 Yeah, that sucks.
0:24:32 I like when I hear Joya, I think of like an old woman who’s like, oh, Coke, you didn’t
0:24:33 give me a raise.
0:24:34 I’m going to get back.
0:24:34 You know what I mean?
0:24:37 Like, I think that there was more to it.
0:24:38 All right.
0:24:39 That’s crazy.
0:24:44 What do you think about Pepsi turning down the secret formula and the trade secrets and deciding
0:24:45 to take her down?
0:24:47 Because what are you going to do with that?
0:24:49 Pepsi’s like, what am I supposed to do?
0:24:50 Make my shit taste like Coke?
0:24:52 It’s just sugar and water.
0:24:57 Yeah, like, I don’t know what you expect me to do with that.
0:25:01 Because like the secret or the whole thing with Coke is that like only like a few people
0:25:02 have access to it.
0:25:03 I don’t, who the fuck knows?
0:25:04 There’s no way that’s true, by the way.
0:25:07 Let me give you a couple other quick ones.
0:25:09 Uber and Waymo.
0:25:09 Do you remember this one?
0:25:10 You probably remember this.
0:25:19 Yeah, the main character of Waymo stole a bunch of stuff from Google and Uber was going
0:25:20 to use it and now Uber got sued.
0:25:22 Yeah, so exactly.
0:25:30 So basically, Anthony Lewandowski was this guy who worked at Waymo and Travis Kalanick recruits
0:25:34 him to Uber, wants him to set up the autonomous driving stuff at Uber.
0:25:38 He comes from, he was at Waymo, which is the autonomous driving thing inside of Google.
0:25:43 He apparently downloaded 14,000 confidential files on the way out.
0:25:49 Maybe a bit much, maybe a little too many, too many files and could have got away with a
0:25:49 little less.
0:25:52 They have the info.
0:25:54 He ends up getting fired from Uber.
0:25:56 Uber has to settle.
0:26:02 Uber settles for 0.34% of Uber that Google owned, which is about $250 million of stock back
0:26:08 in 2018, which I think is closer to a billion dollars now of Uber stock.
0:26:10 And he had to go to prison for 18 months.
0:26:12 But then Trump pardoned him.
0:26:13 Trump pardoned him early.
0:26:14 And so he got out.
0:26:15 Why?
0:26:18 He didn’t want him to serve all 18 months, I guess.
0:26:20 Well, I understand.
0:26:22 That’s why a part of it exists.
0:26:23 He’s like, Anthony’s a big football fan.
0:26:24 I don’t want him to miss the Super Bowl.
0:26:25 It’s only once a year.
0:26:26 Let’s get him out.
0:26:27 So where’s he now?
0:26:29 That’s a good question.
0:26:34 Like, I wonder, is he like damaged goods or is surely not.
0:26:38 Like some VC was like, dude, I don’t care that you’re like Martha Stewart.
0:26:39 You’re not cooler.
0:26:41 He’s the CEO of Paul and Mobile.
0:26:42 Has been for three years.
0:26:43 Okay.
0:26:44 I don’t know what that is.
0:26:45 Okay.
0:26:47 These are great stories.
0:26:48 I’m in on it.
0:26:51 Do you want to hear something that’s related to security?
0:26:55 And also, I think is almost equally exciting.
0:26:55 Yeah.
0:26:55 Wait, wait.
0:26:57 Before we finish, I just have one more little tidbit.
0:27:02 The US, this is actually baked into the DNA of the United States.
0:27:03 I don’t know if you know that.
0:27:03 Espionage?
0:27:04 Espionage.
0:27:05 Corporate espionage.
0:27:10 And so America’s founding father and first U.S. Treasury Secretary, Alexander Hamilton,
0:27:14 decided that, basically realized that Europe was ahead of the U.S.
0:27:18 and actually decided to encourage intellectual piracy.
0:27:23 Doesn’t all crime sound better when you just give it like a longer, like more letters, make
0:27:24 it sound better?
0:27:30 And so what he said was, he advocated to reward those who would bring improvements and secrets
0:27:35 of extraordinary value into the United States, which was instrumental in making the U.S.
0:27:37 a safe haven for industrial spies.
0:27:38 And they did.
0:27:40 This guy, Samuel Slater.
0:27:40 Samuel Slater.
0:27:41 My boy.
0:27:42 I love Samuel Slater.
0:27:43 One of the greatest stories of all time.
0:27:44 What’s his story?
0:27:46 So he brought British textile technology to the U.S.?
0:27:47 What does that mean?
0:27:48 Is he like the founder of denim?
0:27:53 They claim, sort of actually, they claim he was like, had a photographic memory.
0:27:56 This is like the story that you’re told as a kid, like in history class, which is
0:27:57 that he had a photographic memory.
0:28:03 But basically, he was from England, and he memorized and partially wrote down how factories
0:28:03 in England worked.
0:28:09 He came to America, and he helped reinvent American factories, which spurred the Industrial
0:28:12 Revolution, which arguably made America what it is.
0:28:15 Are we pro-espionage?
0:28:16 I think I might be.
0:28:22 So, by the way, this guy’s nickname, top five nickname, do you know Samuel Slater’s nickname?
0:28:22 No.
0:28:23 Slater the traitor?
0:28:25 Yes, that’s awesome.
0:28:26 That’s what they called him in the U.K.
0:28:27 Yes.
0:28:30 But he was like, welcome with open arms here.
0:28:31 We loved him.
0:28:34 So yes, Samuel Slater is sort of an American hero.
0:28:34 That’s crazy.
0:28:37 At the age of 21, so he literally prison-braked it.
0:28:42 He photographically memorized all these trade secrets and then came to America and gave them to
0:28:45 us and spurred the Industrial Revolution and made America great again?
0:28:47 Well, not again.
0:28:48 Made America great for the first time?
0:28:49 Yeah, for the first time.
0:28:50 Holy shit.
0:28:51 Yeah, the inaugural Make America.
0:28:53 Make America great for once?
0:28:54 Yeah, yeah.
0:28:57 Those hats are out of style.
0:28:59 That’s actually pretty funny.
0:29:00 Yeah, he made America great.
0:29:02 I have another story.
0:29:07 So, last year, there’s two parts of the story.
0:29:08 Last year, we talked about this company, Wiz.
0:29:10 Wiz is a cybersecurity company.
0:29:14 To most of our listeners, we mostly talk about small business stuff.
0:29:16 These guys are not that.
0:29:18 They’re an enterprise cybersecurity company.
0:29:21 But it has two amazing components.
0:29:26 So, one part of the story that you talked about, and by the way, these guys, Wiz, remember when
0:29:26 we did Sarah’s List?
0:29:28 They were on Sarah’s List.
0:29:34 So, we kind of, we didn’t exactly nail it because it was, yeah, a little pat on the back.
0:29:36 I don’t know if the mic’s picking that one up.
0:29:41 Because they were already, like, kicking ass, and I don’t know what the multiple was on when
0:29:42 we named them, but it was at least double.
0:29:45 But there’s two amazing stories about this.
0:29:46 The first is how fast they grew.
0:29:48 I want to, like, show you how fast they grew.
0:29:52 But before we talk about how fast they grew, we got to talk about how they started.
0:29:53 And you talked about this.
0:29:55 Wait, you buried the lead.
0:29:56 They’re getting bought for $32 billion.
0:29:57 That’s why we’re talking about them.
0:29:59 They got bought for $32 billion.
0:30:00 Sorry.
0:30:03 So, this company, Wiz, is getting bought for $32 billion.
0:30:05 The story of how they started is amazing.
0:30:07 The story of how fast they grew, also amazing.
0:30:09 It just happened the other day.
0:30:10 But listen to this.
0:30:13 So, you, I think, are the one who brought this up.
0:30:15 Were you the one who talked about this guy, Gilly?
0:30:16 Yes.
0:30:21 So, Gilly is an Israeli cybersecurity veteran.
0:30:24 So, he’s exited a few companies in the cybersecurity space.
0:30:30 And he was also part of this elite group of cybersecurity specialists in the Israeli military
0:30:33 called 8200, I believe it’s called.
0:30:34 And he invented CAPTCHA.
0:30:37 He invented, like, a certain type of firewall.
0:30:38 He invented a lot of shit.
0:30:38 He’s an OG.
0:30:41 Like, the OG is OG in cybersecurity.
0:30:43 And so, he has this thing.
0:30:45 I believe it’s called Cyber Starts.
0:30:46 Yes.
0:30:49 You can call it an incubator or a VC firm.
0:30:50 But here’s how it works.
0:30:56 So, he teams up with a lot of young ex-military 8200.
0:31:01 I think that’s 8200 is the name of the part of the military where it’s the cybersecurity specialist.
0:31:04 So, you leave that after you finish your compulsory service.
0:31:05 And you go to Gilly.
0:31:07 You go, Gilly, sign me up.
0:31:08 I want to start a company.
0:31:11 And so, what Gilly has done is he has this fund.
0:31:21 And in the fund is dozens or even hundreds, I believe, of cybersecurity officers at large companies.
0:31:23 Not just Israeli companies, but America companies.
0:31:30 And what they do, these cybersecurity officers is, yes, they say, here’s the problems I need solved, Gilly.
0:31:36 So, go have your young founders create products to solve these problems, and I will be your first customer.
0:31:40 And Gilly goes to these founders and goes, guys, I’m going to invest in your company.
0:31:42 Here’s the idea to get you started.
0:31:45 I guarantee you $2 million in revenue in the first year.
0:31:52 And that’s amazing because these companies will sell or get – they can raise their next round of funding at 20 times $2 million in revenue.
0:31:55 So, with $2 million in revenue in the first year, they can raise money at a $40 million valuation.
0:31:56 That’s a no-brainer.
0:32:02 Now, what’s pretty controversial is these CISOs, these chief information officers at these companies are – what’s a CISO?
0:32:04 A chief information and security officer.
0:32:05 Information.
0:32:09 They own pieces of Gilly’s fund.
0:32:14 And anytime one of these startups does well and succeeds, they get paid out.
0:32:18 And so, it’s this very insular group of a lot of Israeli guys.
0:32:20 So, they have that bond over that.
0:32:26 They have the bond over being Jewish, and they have the bond that they probably all came from a very similar part of the Israeli army.
0:32:28 So, there’s this bond after bond after bond.
0:32:29 And they’re like, yeah, look, we’ll help you.
0:32:30 We’ll get you off the ground.
0:32:33 And then we’re going to get – the money just – it just flows around nicely.
0:32:36 And so, that’s what he did with these guys’ whiz.
0:32:38 And isn’t that a crazy setup?
0:32:40 It’s amazing.
0:32:41 So, I’m going to read you this.
0:32:44 The numbers from his Cyberstarts fund are phenomenal.
0:32:47 This was about six, seven years old now.
0:32:52 It only has 22 companies, but the 22 companies’ combined value was $35 billion at the time.
0:32:54 Now, whiz just sold for $32 billion itself.
0:32:57 So, it says five of the 22 are unicorns.
0:32:59 So, that’s an extremely high hit rate.
0:33:07 So, a normal VC fund, I think between 1% and 3% of the companies will become unicorns.
0:33:16 YC, which is the best accelerator in the world ever, I think their number is between 6% and 10%.
0:33:19 And so, this guy is like double YC, right?
0:33:23 So, five of the 22 are unicorns.
0:33:28 Four of them sold in the last 12 months for a total of $1.5 billion.
0:33:38 And then it says in all three of his funds, he shows an IRR, so his internal rate return, of more than 100%, which is obviously fantastic.
0:33:43 Not a single company in the portfolio has closed to date.
0:33:48 And he basically beats every VC fund in terms of his performance.
0:33:52 His first fund, he turned $54 million into $1 billion.
0:33:54 That was his stake.
0:33:54 Yeah.
0:33:55 Crazy, right?
0:33:57 You describe the model well.
0:34:01 So, basically, he’s got this network of CISOs, and they’re called the Cyberstarts.
0:34:03 Cyberstarts, like CISO group.
0:34:05 And they basically all talk.
0:34:10 They say what problems they have, but they also get pitched solutions, and it’s like kind of the handpicked solution.
0:34:12 They all start using it.
0:34:15 They all have a share in the fund.
0:34:17 So, if those companies take off, they win.
0:34:22 It’s this kind of like, I mean, there’s definitely a conflict of interest with this, let’s be clear.
0:34:25 But it’s, wow, what a powerful network.
0:34:28 And what a powerful way to use a network.
0:34:30 You know, like James Currier came on the podcast.
0:34:32 I just did an interview with him.
0:34:33 I don’t think it’s out yet.
0:34:36 But he’s got this whole thing.
0:34:37 His fund is called Network Effects.
0:34:44 And he has this blog post called Your Life on Network Effects, or Your Life is a Network Effect.
0:34:48 And it’s basically like everything you do from the college you choose, you’re not just choosing a school.
0:34:50 You’re picking a network to join.
0:34:54 Like I joined the Duke Alumni Network when I picked Duke, right?
0:34:57 When you move to San Francisco, you’re picking a network of people to join.
0:35:01 When you pick a company, you’re picking a network of people to join.
0:35:04 And those are going to be the co-workers and future opportunities that open up for you.
0:35:10 And so once you realize like your life is dictated by networks, you know, the church, the religion you’re in, that’s a network.
0:35:12 The language you speak, that’s a network.
0:35:13 The country you live in, that’s a network.
0:35:29 And so similarly here, this is like such a powerful example of this guy having this network dating back to the Israeli kind of like security intelligence groups to the network of, you know, Fortune 500 CISOs.
0:35:35 How valuable that is, that network turned out to be worth tens of billions of dollars.
0:35:37 And it’s pretty amazing.
0:35:39 He’s so precise about this.
0:35:44 So look at the first YouTube link that I posted in our MDB doc.
0:35:51 So basically, there’s this video that has 400 or 800 views, less than 1,000.
0:35:53 It has 528 views.
0:35:54 Do you see that 528 view video?
0:35:59 In this video, he breaks down where he says, he goes,
0:36:01 I’ve done this 35 times.
0:36:10 I have a 9 to 18 month journey that I use to achieve product market fit before building any cybersecurity company.
0:36:16 And he goes through the key phases, which is basically like exploring different pain points and how to find them.
0:36:20 You spend seven months developing the right solution that mere mortals can use.
0:36:23 And then here are the questions that you need to ask prospects.
0:36:24 Here’s how you find prospects.
0:36:25 This is great.
0:36:26 What a great find.
0:36:30 And only 500 views on this guy who’s given out like, you know, like a billion dollar playbook.
0:36:36 And he goes, he talks about how he’s going to, you want to accelerate the timeline and what the benchmarks is.
0:36:38 He gives this whole playbook that he uses.
0:36:42 And he goes, I’ve done this 35 times and we’ve turned this into billions of dollars.
0:36:44 It’s, it’s incredible.
0:36:46 Now, here we are with Wiz.
0:36:50 So Wiz was founded by a guy named, what is his first name?
0:36:51 Asaf.
0:36:52 Is it Asaf?
0:36:54 Or his last name’s Rapoport.
0:37:00 But he basically had a company that he had previously sold for something like $350 million.
0:37:02 And he did it when he was like a kid still.
0:37:06 So when you think what someone does that, well, why on earth are you going to join this thing?
0:37:07 Well, he did join this thing.
0:37:11 And he left Microsoft and even explains, he’s like, he sold this company to Microsoft and he left.
0:37:13 And he’s like, I’m afraid to leave Microsoft.
0:37:14 I’m not sure what to do.
0:37:15 So he joins this thing.
0:37:18 And listen to the timeline that Wiz went through.
0:37:20 So Wiz was founded in roughly-
0:37:22 When you say he joined this thing, he joined what?
0:37:23 Gillies, Cyberstarts.
0:37:24 Sorry.
0:37:25 Oh, he joined Cyberstarts.
0:37:25 Okay.
0:37:27 He joined Cyberstarts, Gillies thing.
0:37:34 And he starts the company in January of 2020.
0:37:38 And they go through the, and because he’s already successful and he was part of this Gillies crew,
0:37:42 right out the bat, they raised $21 million in funding.
0:37:45 And they were able to hire a team of 10 to 20 people.
0:37:50 By December of that first year, they raised $100 million.
0:37:54 So fast forward one year to March.
0:37:55 So we’re still in winter of 2021.
0:37:58 That’s one year after founding.
0:38:04 They’re only at 40 employees, but they are at roughly $100 million of AR.
0:38:06 Is that crazy?
0:38:08 So-
0:38:09 That’s breakneck speed, right?
0:38:13 Like this is, by the way, there’s a lot of, we do this, but there’s a lot of people who
0:38:15 are like, dude, venture money.
0:38:17 Don’t raise too much money.
0:38:18 You know, growth, growth, growth.
0:38:19 It’s a problem.
0:38:21 You know, you got to bootstrap.
0:38:25 You got to, you know, people, there’s different ways to win.
0:38:30 This is a great example of like, no, raise a bunch of money out the gate,
0:38:36 blitz scale this thing and keep raising money and just go for the huge prize.
0:38:38 And I’m going to, and I have like a takeaway on that.
0:38:43 But two years after the starting the company, we are now in winter of 2021.
0:38:48 They raised $250 million at a $6 billion valuation.
0:38:53 This is a handful of months after they’ve already reached 100 million in revenue with 40 people,
0:38:54 18 months in.
0:38:56 Now we’re in the year 2022.
0:38:58 This is the second year of business.
0:39:01 They are at, I believe that, yeah, second year of business.
0:39:03 They’re at 100 employees.
0:39:07 And by the end, by the end of that year, they’re at 400 employees.
0:39:09 Now we’re going to fast forward each year.
0:39:11 Here’s how fast they grew their revenue after 100 million in revenue.
0:39:14 By year three, they’re at 200 million in revenue.
0:39:16 By year four, they’re at 500 million in revenue.
0:39:20 And by that same year, they sell for $32 billion.
0:39:21 Is that insane?
0:39:22 How on earth?
0:39:29 Can you imagine going zero to five years in, and you’re creating between 500 and a billion
0:39:32 in revenue with only like five or 600 employees?
0:39:35 I was watching a clip of their CRO talking.
0:39:42 And he was like, we were growing so fast that the only reliable benchmark we could use for
0:39:54 how much to grow our headcount on our sales team was just, they were like, did you use, you know, like pipeline, leads, kind of like, how did you do market analysis, market studies?
0:39:57 He goes, we just looked at how full the calendars were.
0:40:05 And he’s basically like, for every product line and every category, we just looked at how, like, the calendar density of all of our sales reps.
0:40:12 And in areas where the calendar density was high, we knew that area is working, hire more people, just hire more people based on the density.
0:40:17 And we measured our calendar density of sales reps for booked calls for people looking for demos.
0:40:24 And that’s how they knew that that was the only reliable leading indicator they could figure out for growth.
0:40:29 And if you look at their Glassdoor review, the CEO has, like, people rave about them.
0:40:31 And like, you could say, well, I don’t know, is Glassdoor even accurate?
0:40:32 I’m not sure.
0:40:34 Dude, you’re the only dude who looks at Glassdoor.
0:40:36 They have one web visitor a month, and it’s you.
0:40:39 Man, I’m telling you, you can get so much insight.
0:40:46 So if you go to Glassdoor, you sort by negative, and you look at the negative reviews, and then you look at the positive reviews, and the truth is in the middle.
0:40:50 And I’m telling you, you can learn so much information about what people are complaining about.
0:40:56 All right, I got a public service announcement for all the tech founders that are listening to this.
0:40:59 Listen, job number one for you is to get customers.
0:41:01 And ideally, the bigger the customers, the better.
0:41:05 And I know when I was trying to do that, we would get somebody interested.
0:41:09 Oh, man, this is a big Fortune 500 company, or it’s a company that’s raised hundreds of millions of dollars.
0:41:10 They want to work with us.
0:41:10 This is so exciting.
0:41:15 And then we hit the wall, and the wall was the security and compliance team.
0:41:22 And all of a sudden, we could not land our biggest customers just because we were shooting ourselves in the foot by not being security ready and compliant.
0:41:25 And so if you want to solve this, use Vanta.
0:41:27 Vanta is an all-in-one solution.
0:41:28 It helps you get audit ready.
0:41:29 And it’s quick.
0:41:30 It’s painless.
0:41:30 It’s easy.
0:41:32 They’re the number one guys at doing this.
0:41:34 There are 8,000 companies that use them.
0:41:35 YC companies use them.
0:41:36 We use them.
0:41:46 And so if you want Vanta to help simplify your security and compliance program, to help you streamline anything, take all those manual security tasks and automate them, you should use Vanta.
0:41:48 If you listen to this, you actually get $1,000 off Vanta, too.
0:41:49 So we got a deal for you.
0:41:51 Go to Vanta.com slash million.
0:41:55 That’s V-A-N-T-A dot com slash million.
0:41:56 Use Vanta.
0:41:57 That’s what all the cool kids are doing.
0:42:03 Were you ever on Glassdoor with any of your companies?
0:42:06 Like, was the hustle on Glassdoor?
0:42:06 Yeah.
0:42:10 And I didn’t look because the only people that left reviews were the people I fired.
0:42:11 Correct.
0:42:14 And do you think that they had an accurate view of, like, the company?
0:42:18 Well, it’s an accurate view of the people who disliked me.
0:42:22 Like, so, but there’s, like, there’s, like, so, like, what, I don’t even want to read it.
0:42:23 But what’s it say?
0:42:24 I’m trying to go.
0:42:29 I don’t know if we have one anymore because we haven’t been in business for, like, independently for years.
0:42:29 They could have shut it down.
0:42:37 But, like, it was probably, like, the management is good, but the CEO, like, moves too fast and, like, is not communicating well.
0:42:38 Which is, like, probably true.
0:42:41 Too handsome, too ripped, moves too fast.
0:42:44 Well, like, I would, like, make decisions, like, I’m, like, this feels…
0:42:45 Intimidatingly smart.
0:42:49 I would, like, make decisions quickly and I would say, this is what we’re doing now.
0:42:51 And I just wouldn’t, like, communicate with my managers.
0:42:52 I would just say, this is it.
0:42:57 I just can’t believe you, like, reading the reviews of whiny employees of other companies.
0:43:00 I just, like, what do you really get out of it?
0:43:00 Like…
0:43:02 It reveals so much truth.
0:43:03 Like, it could say, like…
0:43:06 But that thing you said is true about, like, every company.
0:43:08 You know, like…
0:43:09 Yeah, but, like, it could be…
0:43:10 The CEO likes to move fast.
0:43:11 It could be, like…
0:43:17 Let’s say there’s this new startup and it says, like, you know, the market…
0:43:21 Like, we were going to do, like, a BetterUp.
0:43:22 You know what BetterUp is?
0:43:23 It’s, like, a coaching platform for…
0:43:25 Before Hampton, we were thinking about getting into that.
0:43:26 And I read the reviews of BetterUp.
0:43:30 And the reviews were, like, business boomed during COVID.
0:43:33 But now we can’t get anyone to sign up for online coaching.
0:43:37 So that’s, like, an interesting, like, macro insight into the market of coaching.
0:43:39 Like, it boomed during COVID.
0:43:39 Okay, that’s good.
0:43:39 I like that.
0:43:43 And so you’ll see that on, like, four different coaching platforms, glass door reviews.
0:43:48 Or, like, you know, our valuation, if you see this in, like, five different ones, is way too high.
0:43:50 I have no idea how we’re ever going to grow in this.
0:43:54 That’s not something that you want to see on four different glass doors of companies in the same industry.
0:43:56 So you get, like, insights like that.
0:43:59 Or it could be, like, CEOs amazing at press.
0:44:01 Don’t believe everything you see.
0:44:06 And if you see a bunch of those, then I think to myself, oh, I’ve been, like, basing a lot of my insights off of public articles.
0:44:08 I don’t know if I should actually do that.
0:44:09 Do you know what I mean?
0:44:20 Yeah, I just, I personally wouldn’t do, like, you know, I personally wouldn’t trust it because I think you’re going to get a lot of basically false negatives in this that would spook you.
0:44:25 So, for example, did you ever work at a company that had Blind?
0:44:28 I didn’t work at a company when that existed.
0:44:29 No.
0:44:31 Or, like, HubSpot probably had one.
0:44:32 You probably just didn’t join it.
0:44:38 But, like, Blind is basically a private social network.
0:44:39 So let’s say you work at a big company.
0:44:40 There’s an app called Blind.
0:44:41 You log in.
0:44:44 You have to use your, I think you have to show that you have a work email there.
0:44:47 So, like, only people who work at the company can see it and can post there.
0:44:48 And it still exists.
0:44:49 But it’s all anonymous.
0:44:50 Yeah, it still exists.
0:44:51 And it’s all anonymous.
0:44:56 And it’s basically just, like, a back channel for people to bitch and moan and complain.
0:45:04 And then the upside would be that they, you know, there’s kind of, like, a whistleblower-y type of thing where you can call out hard truths that you’re not going to call out.
0:45:07 But the reality is that it was all just complaints.
0:45:10 And the problem was it was misguided complaints.
0:45:14 So, like, for example, at Twitch, it’s like I was on the exec team.
0:45:16 So I knew all the numbers of the company.
0:45:17 I knew what was going on.
0:45:18 I knew the strategy.
0:45:19 I knew who was smart.
0:45:21 I knew who wasn’t because I’m sitting with these people every day.
0:45:31 And then you read a review on blind or, like, a post on blind from someone who’s, like, a, you know, just like a mid-level employee, you know, some engineering manager somewhere.
0:45:35 They would often be like, oh, you know, there’s no way we’re going to hit our numbers.
0:45:36 I’m like, dude, we’re hitting our numbers.
0:45:37 What are you talking about?
0:45:39 I could see the numbers.
0:45:40 You don’t have access to the numbers.
0:45:43 So you’re just, like, you know, just talking out your ass, basically.
0:45:48 But, and the loudest, most sort of extreme voices would get the most play, right?
0:45:49 They would get the most attention.
0:45:56 And so it’s the same way, like, when Dropbox launches on Hacker News and the top comment is, like, no one’s ever going to use this.
0:46:00 And he can give you a highly intelligent breakdown of why nobody’s ever going to use Dropbox.
0:46:01 And then Dropbox becomes, like, so big, right?
0:46:16 So I think, like, a lot of these message board, anonymous message board type things are too biased towards negativity from people who don’t have real information and are too prone to false negatives to be trusted.
0:46:25 So, like, for every example you could find where you get signal, you’re going to find countersignal, which means to me I can’t use this because I can’t differentiate signal and countersignal properly.
0:46:26 Only hindsight, you know?
0:46:38 No, I think if you read enough of them, I think you can start it, like, for example, if you’re trying to understand, like, a macro trend or industry analysis, I think you can see trends in the Glassdoor reviews.
0:46:43 And I think that it could help paint a picture, but not be, it’s not a fact.
0:46:47 It’s just, like, is this, like, does this jive with other sources that I’m learning about?
0:46:48 So that’s why I’m on board with it.
0:46:50 By the way, I agree to disagree.
0:46:50 Like, I think you’re right.
0:46:51 I think you’re right.
0:46:52 I don’t think you’re wrong.
0:46:55 I think there’s some problems with it, but there’s some utility.
0:46:57 You’re the only guy I know who uses it, which I find, like, funny.
0:47:00 Well, like, I wanted to learn about the CEO.
0:47:03 And I’m like, what makes a CEO so great?
0:47:08 And I read an article about him, and it was like, don’t mistake this guy’s gentleness for ruthlessness.
0:47:13 It said, don’t mistake Asaf’s gentleness for someone who is willing to play by the rules.
0:47:13 Yeah.
0:47:15 And I was like, that’s, like, an interesting title.
0:47:20 So this guy’s, like, must be, like, a really nice guy, but he’s ruthless and he’s kind of a killer.
0:47:22 That’s, like, an interesting trait.
0:47:25 Like, is there, like, is there, like, anything I can learn from his personality?
0:47:34 And I went and read his Glassdoor reviews, and he had glowing reviews as a CEO where people are, like, nice guy, but total hard ass.
0:47:43 And I just thought, like, that is a, that mix, those mixes of, those two traits when you mix, like, you could be polite and, like, hardcore.
0:47:44 I respect that.
0:47:45 I like that.
0:47:47 Is this a person I want to learn for?
0:47:47 Learn from.
0:47:53 That was kind of, like, my insight from looking at the Glassdoor reviews and also reading interviews, things like that.
0:47:54 Right, right.
0:47:55 And so I just thought it was fascinating.
0:47:57 But we had Mark Laurie of the pod.
0:48:03 Mark started Diapers.com, which he grew, like, during, like, the dot-com boom, and he sold for hundreds of millions of dollars.
0:48:06 Then he did the same with Jet.com, sold that for billions of dollars.
0:48:07 Now he’s got a new thing.
0:48:07 Have you seen this new thing?
0:48:09 It’s called, I think, Wonder.
0:48:10 Wonder, yeah.
0:48:12 And he had this thing when he came on the pod.
0:48:16 By the way, when he came on the pod, we could tell that he didn’t have a laptop.
0:48:19 And we were like, are you calling from your iPhone?
0:48:21 And he was like, yeah, I don’t use laptops.
0:48:24 And we were like, is that, like, a billionaire thing?
0:48:25 And he was like.
0:48:26 He was awesome, by the way.
0:48:27 I love that guy’s energy.
0:48:32 Like, he was super positive, super energetic, super optimistic.
0:48:34 He was great, right?
0:48:34 Charismatic.
0:48:35 He was fun.
0:48:36 He was a fun guest to have on the pod.
0:48:37 I would love to have him on.
0:48:38 Yeah, we got to get him back on.
0:48:41 Well, on the pod, we asked him how he did it.
0:48:46 And he had one phrase that has always stuck with me because it was almost like saying, I’ll explain why it’s
0:48:46 stuck with me.
0:48:49 But it was called Vision, Capital, and People.
0:48:51 He goes, those are the three things I care about.
0:48:55 He goes, I find a really big idea and a big opportunity.
0:48:57 I raise a ton of money.
0:48:58 And then I go and hire the best people.
0:49:01 And I pay them all of that money that I raise.
0:49:04 And I sort of get out of the way and let them do the work.
0:49:07 And I have a bootstrap company.
0:49:10 You have only done bootstrap, mostly done bootstrap companies.
0:49:14 It’s really hard to do that because you don’t have a lot of money to pay people.
0:49:15 So you’re doing the work.
0:49:16 So it feels like a grind.
0:49:21 And this company, Wiz, is sort of a good example of the founders.
0:49:23 They found amazing opportunity.
0:49:25 They raised shitloads of money.
0:49:30 And this is a perfect example of how it’s done when you have a really big idea and you have
0:49:32 a really big opportunity and you have a ton of money.
0:49:37 And I think it’s as hard as a bootstrap startup.
0:49:38 Do you know what I mean?
0:49:40 They’re of equal challenging and stressfulness.
0:49:42 Equal?
0:49:43 I don’t know.
0:49:48 This scaling at breakneck speed seems a lot more challenging to me.
0:49:56 I think if you had a small bootstrap startup that was growing quickly, you would feel a similar amount of stress.
0:50:02 But there is no chance that you would have a $32 billion exit in five years.
0:50:13 One of the funny things about life is that if you decide to start a business, you’re going to spend, let’s just call it, 10 hours a day, maybe 12 early on, just obsessed.
0:50:14 Your mind is just obsessed with this company.
0:50:17 10 hours a day, 12 hours a day, every single day.
0:50:19 It doesn’t matter if that’s a taco truck.
0:50:22 It doesn’t matter if it’s whiz selling for $32 billion.
0:50:26 It’s still going to take 10 to 12 hours a day of your time and mindshare.
0:50:39 It’s still going to stress you out pretty much equally if you are doing a thing that’s, you know, $1 million in ARR and you’re trying to pay the bills and you’re trying to pay yourself and you’re trying to grow and you’re trying to do all those things.
0:50:40 Well, guess what?
0:50:42 These guys are also trying to pay the bills, trying to grow, trying to do all that stuff.
0:50:48 So you’re right, like the stress levels are more based on you as a person than the company that you’re doing.
0:50:54 And the time is equal whether you have, you know, it doesn’t matter how many zeros are at the end of the size of the business.
0:50:57 This was probably one of the most important lessons my dad taught me.
0:51:00 He was like, my first business was in the restaurant industry.
0:51:03 And my dad worked in oil and gas his whole life.
0:51:04 He worked for BP.
0:51:08 And so he was like, yeah, the energy industry is just like the restaurant industry.
0:51:14 You’re going to spend the same 10 hours a day, except in this one, there’s three extra zeros on the end of every project.
0:51:18 And so would you rather spend that same time on a small project or a bigger project?
0:51:20 Like that’s what you’re deciding between here.
0:51:22 And I was like, okay.
0:51:23 Which is sort of hard to hear, right?
0:51:26 Like you’re like, I’m dedicating my life to this thing.
0:51:29 You’re dedicating your life to this thing, but your prize is so much bigger.
0:51:31 I didn’t think it was hard to hear.
0:51:32 I was like, oh, that’s the truth.
0:51:33 Okay, cool.
0:51:33 Thank you.
0:51:34 Like, okay, what do I do?
0:51:38 And then I pretty much immediately switched and went and did a biotech thing with him in Australia.
0:51:42 Like, you know, I was like, I was pretty ready to hear the truth.
0:51:47 I think that most people you’re right don’t like to hear the truth.
0:51:55 I like to hear the truth because I realized that basically the truth, while short-term painful, is actually long-term less painful.
0:51:58 And I think most people don’t like the short-term pain.
0:52:00 They’re willing to have long-term pain.
0:52:02 Have you been following these guys, like getting acquired?
0:52:06 Was there anything that you liked about the story or that stuck out to you?
0:52:09 Well, remember when we first brought this up?
0:52:12 We first brought this up because Wiz was rumored to be selling for $23 billion.
0:52:19 And then something happened where it was like, no, that’s just a rumor or Google couldn’t do it because of antitrust.
0:52:21 Or for some reason, the deal wasn’t going to happen.
0:52:29 And if you remember, Asaf came out and he tweeted this like kind of like badass memo where it was like, first, deal information got leaked.
0:52:32 They’re in rumors about an acquisition for $23 billion.
0:52:36 Then he releases this thing and he’s like, we’re not looking to get acquired.
0:52:39 I think he said like, let me cut to the chase.
0:52:42 Our next milestones are a billion in ARR and an IPO.
0:52:44 And everyone’s like, yeah, that’s it.
0:52:45 That guy’s a killer.
0:52:49 And most of us were like, most of us on the sideline were like, oh, nice negotiating.
0:52:54 Like pretty sure it’s going to sell for, I don’t know, $25, $30 billion in the next 12 months.
0:52:56 And that’s exactly what happened.
0:52:59 It sold for $30 billion, $32 billion in the next 12 months.
0:53:00 It like came exactly true.
0:53:02 What a lot of people noticed, which was like.
0:53:03 What was the first offer?
0:53:05 The first offer was like $20 or $18?
0:53:06 $23 billion.
0:53:08 So we got $10 billion, $10 extra billion.
0:53:13 And I don’t even know that the $23 billion was on the table.
0:53:15 Maybe the $23 billion was what he wanted at the time.
0:53:17 And they continued to grow.
0:53:19 And this is all part of the negotiation, right?
0:53:27 It’s not, this didn’t, I don’t think this leaked because somebody really just wanted the world to know.
0:53:32 You know, this is part of a public negotiation.
0:53:33 It’s a price setting.
0:53:33 It’s an anchoring.
0:53:37 It’s getting the second bidder to up their bid.
0:53:39 There’s a whole bunch of stuff happening there.
0:53:42 And when a CEO is like, we want to be independent.
0:53:43 And it’s like, yeah, you do.
0:53:47 But if the price is right, you know, we’ll see.
0:53:48 We’ll see what happens.
0:53:50 And almost always, once the price is right, they do it.
0:53:54 I love hearing about this story.
0:53:55 I’m very excited.
0:54:01 The time that we’ve worked on this podcast, this guy has built and sold a $32 billion company.
0:54:09 Well, when you put it like that.
0:54:11 Yeah.
0:54:13 But does he have 650,000 subscribers on YouTube?
0:54:14 Probably not.
0:54:17 And now he will try to.
0:54:19 I bet you this guy’s going to get into podcasting.
0:54:21 That was the funniest tweet I saw the other day.
0:54:24 It goes, even kings and billionaires want to be podcasters.
0:54:26 And I was like, it’s true, dude.
0:54:32 Like you see, you know, whether it’s billionaires on the All In podcast or, you know, Bill Gurley
0:54:40 and his podcast, you have Bill Gurley’s podcast, Elon is tweeting and like crazy and trying to be trying to get his word out there.
0:54:44 You see Gavin Newsom starting the new, then his new podcast.
0:54:47 They want, they all want what we got, Sam.
0:54:49 They all want what we got.
0:54:50 And we’ll sell it to them for $32 billion.
0:54:52 It’s always been this way.
0:55:03 You know, you look at like who has bought Time Magazine and with Washington Post and Bezos, you know, king or once you’ve, once you’re rich, you always want to be king.
0:55:08 And to be king oftentimes is to own a media company for some reason.
0:55:10 It’s been that way for hundreds of years.
0:55:14 Yeah, it’s basically just like, there’s three buckets.
0:55:18 If you’re rich, but lack status, you’re going to chase status.
0:55:20 If you’re high status, but no money, you’re going to chase money.
0:55:23 And if you have rich and status, you’re going to chase power.
0:55:25 Those are the three.
0:55:27 You will fill those up.
0:55:36 Like somebody, I have a friend who’s, who, who knows Elon and he was telling me, he’s like, Elon gets all this criticism right now for, for backing Trump and Doge and all this stuff.
0:55:43 And the thing people say is like, you know, he’s doing this to make, like, he’s doing this to like give Tesla or whatever an unfair advantage.
0:55:44 He’s doing this to enrich himself.
0:55:46 And he’s like, are you an idiot?
0:55:48 He’s like, he’s not doing this to enrich himself.
0:55:50 He wants status.
0:55:54 Like, like, not that, oh, he’s doing this altruistically, but he wants status.
0:55:58 That’s, of course, what people want when they, when they’re, when they have the money, they want the status.
0:56:00 And when they have the status, they want the power.
0:56:04 Like, those are the three, like, things that draw people to do crazy stuff.
0:56:07 Yeah, he wants something, but it’s not money.
0:56:13 Yeah, he’s got, I think at this point, when you have that much money, more money is probably boring.
0:56:23 His father did a good thing on DJ Vlad, where he was talking about how he was like, Elon, I knew after he sold Zip2 that he wouldn’t stop until he was number one.
0:56:24 The richest person in the world.
0:56:25 He’s like, I knew that.
0:56:29 Yeah, he goes, I, uh, he goes, I knew that was, that’s what he wanted to do.
0:56:32 And he would never stop until he was number one.
0:56:33 I could tell he was like that since he was a kid.
0:56:36 Wait, so Elon’s dad did an interview with Vlad TV?
0:56:37 Yeah.
0:56:38 Didn’t we talk about this?
0:56:40 Um, yeah, there’s a dude.
0:56:42 What else was in this?
0:56:42 This is incredible.
0:56:47 So Vlad TV, part of black YouTube, one of my favorite niches of YouTube.
0:56:51 Uh, he had, uh, what’s Elon’s dad’s name?
0:56:53 I don’t know.
0:56:53 I forget.
0:56:54 Or something like that.
0:56:55 Ah, I forget his name.
0:56:58 He had his dad on, uh, the other day.
0:57:00 And DJ Vlad is weird.
0:57:02 He never just releases the whole episode.
0:57:02 Errol.
0:57:03 Errol Musk.
0:57:03 Errol.
0:57:08 He like releases like clips and he’s been releasing clips over the past month of this
0:57:09 interview.
0:57:14 And he talks about what Elon was like as a kid and how like, are the rumors true that you
0:57:15 are rich?
0:57:20 And it sounds like this guy and Elon are exactly the same where he made some money and then he’s
0:57:23 like, we’re going to spend it all buying this farm and turn this farm into a thing.
0:57:24 And it went broke.
0:57:26 And he’s like, well, I’m going to come with some other people to give me money.
0:57:27 We’re going to start this new thing.
0:57:28 And that worked.
0:57:30 And he went rich and bust like constantly.
0:57:33 And he was like, I loaned Elon money to start zip two.
0:57:35 And that turned into $30 million.
0:57:40 And I knew when he made that money, he was never going to stop until he was number one.
0:57:43 And he just tells these crazy stories along the way.
0:57:45 Dude, we need to do a whole reacts video.
0:57:46 Was the interview good?
0:57:47 It’s pretty good.
0:57:53 It’s shocking that like, if my father said any of this shit publicly, it’s weird, dude.
0:57:59 It makes, it’s very like, they talk exactly the same the way they’re, they’re all the
0:58:01 comments are like, his laugh is a DNA test in itself.
0:58:05 Or they’re timestamping and it says, I swear, this is Elon.
0:58:06 The face mimics it.
0:58:08 The way he laughs, the way he rolls his eyes.
0:58:09 I could see Elon here.
0:58:12 This is, this is a, this laugh is a paternity test.
0:58:15 Like the spacing and words, you know how Elon talks slow.
0:58:18 He has like a very like unique structure, how he talks.
0:58:20 It’s exactly the same.
0:58:23 And his dad is insane, by the way.
0:58:26 Like there’s like some crazy story about how he is now married to his stepdaughter.
0:58:29 Like he does some wacky ass shit.
0:58:30 He’s married to his stepdaughter.
0:58:31 Something weird like that.
0:58:33 He has a kid with a stepdaughter.
0:58:34 Yeah.
0:58:39 And there’s a, and there’s like, just when he’s talking, you see, I understand why the
0:58:44 children who you raised, why they’re insane and why they’re ultra, like in order to be
0:58:47 ultra successful, you have to have some type of like weird, like daddy issue.
0:58:49 And I see him and I’m like, oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
0:58:50 I get why you have a daddy issue.
0:58:51 Cause you’re insane.
0:58:52 Like he reveals stuff.
0:58:56 Like he’ll be like, yeah, Elon like was crying to me when he was like 23.
0:59:01 And I thought how weak, like he like, like we’ll tell a story where he’s like disrespecting his
0:59:03 son in front of everyone.
0:59:04 And I’m like, oh, you’re an asshole.
0:59:06 That’s why your son behaves this way.
0:59:09 Sometimes it’s like a very interesting interview.
0:59:11 And it was, has been totally under talked about.
0:59:12 Yeah.
0:59:13 This is crazy.
0:59:15 This is a two and a half hour interview.
0:59:16 Oh, did he release the whole thing?
0:59:17 Finally?
0:59:18 When did that get released?
0:59:23 Normally when he normally does like clips, like he releases two and a half hour interview
0:59:24 released a month ago.
0:59:26 Um, how many views does it have?
0:59:28 171,000.
0:59:29 That’s it.
0:59:29 Yeah.
0:59:37 Just, just to put that into, uh, into perspective here, DJ Vlad’s most popular interview.
0:59:41 Um, is with, let’s see, who’s he got here?
0:59:43 Uh, Boozy.
0:59:45 Boozy has six point, six and a half million views.
0:59:47 Cardi B, 5.7 million.
0:59:50 I mean, Boozy’s a good, a good listen.
0:59:53 It’s a great interview.
0:59:54 DaBaby, 5 million.
1:00:01 So we’re going to have to like watch the whole thing, but there’s like crazy good insight into
1:00:01 all this.
1:00:06 And, um, it, like my takeaway from all this is like, it’s not worth being successful if you
1:00:09 and your father are, behave this way to one another.
1:00:14 Um, like it’s very strange to see, like, you don’t have to be a psychologist to like watch
1:00:19 this and be like, uh, I, I understand why this family screwed up.
1:00:19 Yeah.
1:00:19 I’ve messed up family.
1:00:21 Okay.
1:00:22 Wow.
1:00:22 That’s amazing.
1:00:23 All right.
1:00:25 Corporate, corporate espionage stories.
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1:00:31 Remember everything on this podcast is allegedly, and this is a comedy podcast.
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