0:00:02 (upbeat music)
0:00:14 – Welcome to this episode of “Hustling Tech.”
0:00:16 I’m Ben Horowitz, and with me today,
0:00:19 I have Josh Browder, who is the founder,
0:00:22 CEO of DoNotPay.com.
0:00:25 We have Makiri Omar,
0:00:29 who’s been hustling that platform to great effect.
0:00:30 And then with me, as always,
0:00:34 I have my co-host, Shaka Senghor,
0:00:36 who hustled his way out of the joint
0:00:40 and is now a leader in the community and my co-host.
0:00:41 So welcome.
0:00:42 – Yeah, welcome.
0:00:45 So I love, first of all, I just love the name DoNotPay.
0:00:48 I wanna stamp that on every bill that comes through
0:00:49 and just send it out to everybody.
0:00:52 – So tell us, what is DoNotPay?
0:00:53 How did it start?
0:00:55 – So DoNotPay today is a platform
0:00:58 that helps ordinary people fight for their consumer rights.
0:01:01 So getting back money from corporations and governments.
0:01:04 And it started out four years ago
0:01:05 when I got a bunch of parking tickets.
0:01:07 I was admittedly a terrible driver
0:01:09 and I was writing all of these appeal letters
0:01:11 to get out of my tickets.
0:01:13 And I learned that you can go to a lawyer
0:01:14 and the lawyer will say,
0:01:16 I’ll get you out of your parking ticket,
0:01:18 but I’ll take 50% of the cost of the ticket,
0:01:20 or you have to pay the ticket.
0:01:22 And there must be a better way than that.
0:01:25 And so I’ve researched all of these obscure government
0:01:27 documents to find out the top reasons
0:01:28 why people get out of their parking tickets.
0:01:30 The biggest one is signage.
0:01:32 They make the signage deliberately confusing.
0:01:34 For example, having a tree cover the sign,
0:01:37 having two signs say the opposite thing.
0:01:39 And then the second biggest reason is parking bays
0:01:41 that are physically impossible to park in.
0:01:45 And below 180 centimeters, you can’t get any car in.
0:01:47 And this is mainly because the lines aren’t painted.
0:01:49 Beyond that, they make mistakes on the ticket.
0:01:51 Then you can’t trust them with anything.
0:01:53 And I decided to automate that for my friends.
0:01:54 And then it turned out it was very popular.
0:01:57 So expanded it to the general public.
0:01:59 – And that’s actually kind of cool also,
0:02:00 ’cause coming from where you’re from,
0:02:03 Shaka, you know, a lot of guys with cases
0:02:05 get taken down by parking tickets.
0:02:06 – Yeah, absolutely.
0:02:09 Clear that right on up and not have to run into the courts
0:02:11 when they already got a warrant for other things.
0:02:14 – And McCary, so how did you come across the platform
0:02:15 and what were you doing with it?
0:02:18 – So I have a delivery service, 24/7 delivery service.
0:02:20 When you’re a delivery service and you live in LA,
0:02:22 we have a thing that we like to call parking ninches.
0:02:24 Those are the right.
0:02:25 So when you’re delivering things,
0:02:29 we deliver things at all times of day and hour and night.
0:02:32 So it’s one of those things where I literally needed
0:02:34 to find a way where I can either help some of my drivers,
0:02:37 get out of their tickets, because places like LA,
0:02:40 they literally like to stick you a ticket on your window
0:02:43 that says $70, $77, all the way up to $177.
0:02:45 And the violation can be like,
0:02:47 oh, you didn’t put your will to the left.
0:02:48 Just something really ridiculous.
0:02:50 So I was just trying to find the answer to that.
0:02:52 And then I just remember it was just
0:02:55 so half of the TV was on and next thing you know,
0:02:57 they said, oh, there’s an app, there’s a robot
0:02:59 that can literally take care of your parking tickets
0:03:01 and that could really go to bat for you
0:03:02 and get your money back.
0:03:05 I’m like, huh, yeah, let me try to put it to the test.
0:03:08 And it literally helped me with one or two of my parking
0:03:11 tickets that was a real big problem.
0:03:13 So basically you start using their service
0:03:16 and then later on, they start adding more features.
0:03:18 – When were the other features that you started using?
0:03:20 – So it’s one of those things where you’d have people
0:03:23 who would actually try to buy a product from you
0:03:25 and then they’ll try to say, oh, we never received
0:03:27 that product or they’ll do a charge back
0:03:29 or they’ll try to say whatever the case would be.
0:03:31 And then what would happen is, is that it would go
0:03:33 into my account, it would take money out of my account,
0:03:36 my merchant processor would take money out of my account.
0:03:38 And then it would charge, it would actually come back
0:03:41 to be where like I would have now a negative fund
0:03:44 in my account or they would charge me another like NSF fee.
0:03:46 It’s money that basically is in your account
0:03:47 or they take from you.
0:03:49 It’s just a fee that they charge you for an overdraft.
0:03:52 – So they robbed you facilitated
0:03:53 by the credit card company.
0:03:54 – The product’s gone, the money’s gone
0:03:56 and now you’re taking more money because of everything else.
0:03:59 So they now have something that basically like,
0:04:00 get your bank fees back.
0:04:03 Just like last week, I got like $62 back in fees.
0:04:04 So you can’t knock it.
0:04:07 – You know, the banking system is so,
0:04:10 I mean, for a small business or kind of a person
0:04:13 who doesn’t have a lot of money is the most broken thing.
0:04:16 It’s something we track a lot here and that if you’re me,
0:04:19 you pay nothing for banking services.
0:04:21 If you’re kind of a regular person
0:04:23 trying to go paycheck to paycheck,
0:04:28 it’s like $15 a month in ATM fees and this fee
0:04:29 and that fee and the other things.
0:04:32 It’s all hidden and under the covers.
0:04:33 – Yeah, I was actually thinking about,
0:04:36 if you have a small business like that can be just devastating
0:04:39 be those, ’cause those fees rack up relatively quickly.
0:04:41 So did you have just small businesses mine
0:04:45 or was it just in general, like this is something
0:04:47 that we just need to attack either way it goes.
0:04:48 – So when I launched Do Not Pay,
0:04:50 it was just from my small dorm room
0:04:52 and I put up this website for parking tickets.
0:04:54 I had a contact form on the website
0:04:56 and people didn’t know that there was a 17 year old
0:04:58 behind this website and they thought I was some big law firm.
0:05:01 So they actually say, I don’t have a parking ticket
0:05:06 but I’m getting like this small business like charge back,
0:05:07 things like that.
0:05:09 And so that’s where I got all the ideas to expand
0:05:11 and it’s a bigger problem than just parking tickets.
0:05:14 People are being exploited across the system.
0:05:15 – I’m like a power user.
0:05:18 I mean, it’s one of those things where they even have
0:05:19 something where if you’re going to court,
0:05:21 if you need to get money,
0:05:24 I have a situation now where I had to deal with a landlord
0:05:26 who basically was withholding money
0:05:28 because he went and told me
0:05:31 that the place I was moving into was the certain size.
0:05:32 And he wouldn’t let me see it because he was like,
0:05:35 well, you’ve seen the pictures, you’ve seen this, whatever.
0:05:36 I’m not gonna lie to you, you know,
0:05:37 I guarantee this, I guarantee that.
0:05:39 And it was supposed to be a certain square footage.
0:05:41 Well, it wasn’t, it was like,
0:05:43 it was supposed to be 12, 172 square feet,
0:05:44 but I walked in and I said,
0:05:46 this is 615 square feet.
0:05:48 And he was like, well, you know, you signed the lease.
0:05:51 He took $5,700 of my money.
0:05:54 And so like, I was just like, okay, where do I go?
0:05:55 What do I do for this point on?
0:05:58 So of course I went the legal shield route
0:05:59 because at first that’s the first thing you think of
0:06:00 is attorney base.
0:06:02 Let me see if I can get somebody to write a letter
0:06:03 like real quick.
0:06:04 That didn’t work.
0:06:06 And then finally I was like, okay, well,
0:06:07 small claims here I come.
0:06:08 So I did that.
0:06:11 But then also when I did the do not pay at the same time,
0:06:14 do not pay actually came up with a script
0:06:14 that literally was like,
0:06:16 they researched the whole situation
0:06:17 because you’re typing your situation.
0:06:21 And literally they now have a thing called that says,
0:06:22 what’s your problem?
0:06:25 And it’s like a customer service space problem area.
0:06:27 And it actually goes and it researches similar cases
0:06:30 or similar ideas or something that somebody else has done
0:06:32 or that have been through the same thing.
0:06:33 And it compiles your situation together
0:06:34 and it gives you the structure
0:06:36 of what you need to say and present in court.
0:06:39 So you know exactly what to say to the judge or not.
0:06:41 That’s one of the things that I’m super curious about.
0:06:43 I’ve done a lot of work in criminal justice space
0:06:46 nationally and when talking to people
0:06:48 about the legal structure in the U.S.
0:06:50 where they think it’s just one thing,
0:06:52 it’s one kind of legal structure.
0:06:54 But in reality, every state has its own thing.
0:06:57 How does do not pay work across all these laws
0:07:01 and different rules in each city and county and state?
0:07:02 Like how does that work?
0:07:04 – So it’s four years in the making
0:07:07 and we only focus mainly on consumer rights.
0:07:09 There’s a lot of national laws around consumer rights
0:07:10 that we rely on.
0:07:13 And then we’ve also adapted it for 50 states.
0:07:16 But you’re completely right and the justice system
0:07:17 in general is like pay to play.
0:07:20 The more money you have, the more successful you are.
0:07:22 And so that’s what we’re trying to stop.
0:07:24 – Wow, and how does the system work?
0:07:27 Because my landlord stole my money.
0:07:28 I need to get it back.
0:07:29 I’m taking them to a small claims court.
0:07:30 This is my case.
0:07:34 And then do not pay says, well, this is your argument.
0:07:36 How did you do that?
0:07:39 – So do not pay will talk to you like a real lawyer.
0:07:41 We call it a robot lawyer and ask you questions
0:07:42 about your issue.
0:07:44 And then it goes down through a decision tree
0:07:47 to classify it against like a legally sound way
0:07:49 to sue this person.
0:07:51 And in this case, it’s breach of contract.
0:07:55 So applied his breach of contract law to his case
0:07:58 and then generated a demand letter and small claims script.
0:08:01 And no lawyers are involved in small claims processes.
0:08:05 And so you can have the same power as like a top law firm.
0:08:06 – Right, right.
0:08:07 ‘Cause you’ve done the legal research.
0:08:09 So when you go in court,
0:08:11 you’re just basically going off the script.
0:08:12 Is that what you’re saying?
0:08:13 – That’s right.
0:08:16 And it even tells you responses
0:08:17 to what the other side could say.
0:08:21 So if the other side says, actually I did post it,
0:08:23 you say, well, not in the legally correct place.
0:08:26 So it gives you even back and forth discussion points.
0:08:28 – I mean, I’ve been small claims more than once.
0:08:31 Many people don’t know that when you go to small claims,
0:08:34 you are not allowed to be represented by an attorney.
0:08:36 You literally have to talk your case out
0:08:39 in front of a judge or a sit in judge.
0:08:42 And basically, you know, go back and forth
0:08:44 between the plaintiff and the defendant.
0:08:47 You can consult an attorney before you go
0:08:48 to make sure that what you’re saying is valid
0:08:50 and what you’re going against
0:08:52 is what you are really going to win.
0:08:54 And so like you can do that,
0:08:56 but you just can’t have one present with you.
0:09:00 So what do not pay does is that basically
0:09:01 it takes all that information.
0:09:04 You, I literally wrote out the whole script
0:09:07 and it just gave me the definitions of what point
0:09:09 I needed to basically cover.
0:09:11 And I need to make sure that,
0:09:13 and it even tells you in the whole little paragraph
0:09:15 that they give you,
0:09:18 you have to make sure that each point is clearly defined
0:09:20 and it clearly stated of why this happened
0:09:23 and this happened here or how does this define this?
0:09:24 So it gives you an understanding
0:09:27 of what you have to tell the judge.
0:09:30 I got, you know, I was actually robbed of my money
0:09:32 because this man told me that it was one size
0:09:34 and in actuality it was not.
0:09:35 Here are pictures,
0:09:36 here are everything,
0:09:37 give my evidence to back it up
0:09:39 and here’s what I need to present in order to do so.
0:09:41 So once you get that,
0:09:43 then you kind of feel comfortable going,
0:09:44 like you’re ready to go.
0:09:47 And then also if the person doesn’t show up,
0:09:49 for those who don’t know that, you know,
0:09:50 that you can win by default,
0:09:51 if that person doesn’t show up,
0:09:53 it tells you at the bottom like, okay,
0:09:54 if that person doesn’t show up,
0:09:55 then you tell the judge this
0:09:57 and it tells you a script to read.
0:09:59 So the judge will automatically know, okay,
0:10:01 well this person clearly knows what he’s talking about
0:10:03 because that’s what you have to do in the court of law.
0:10:04 – So how does that work for somebody
0:10:07 who has challenges with literacy?
0:10:10 ‘Cause I mean, like doing this work in criminal justice,
0:10:12 like one of the big issues
0:10:15 is that people take very poor deals largely
0:10:17 because they don’t understand or comprehend a law.
0:10:18 So how does this work?
0:10:20 Is there a way that, you know,
0:10:23 people can just verbally express their argument
0:10:24 or is it all written?
0:10:26 – So it’s all verbal,
0:10:28 but we’re launching voice input.
0:10:30 So you can open-ended say,
0:10:32 my landlord won’t give me my security deposit back
0:10:34 and it will figure it out for you.
0:10:36 We really think about this, making it accessible.
0:10:39 Do not pay a scripture in the simplest English possible.
0:10:42 You don’t have to have an iPhone to use, do not pay.
0:10:45 You can go onto donotpay.com and get access to everything.
0:10:49 And even if you’re blind, we have alt text
0:10:52 and we’re fully compatible with like screen readers
0:10:55 and stuff and soon we’re going to have voice input.
0:10:57 So it’s something we really think about.
0:10:58 Obviously we could be a lot better,
0:11:01 but we’re moving in that direction.
0:11:02 Unfortunately at the moment,
0:11:04 robots can’t represent people in court.
0:11:06 At one day the law will hopefully change.
0:11:09 – So Josh, you say that, you know,
0:11:12 you’re adding features based on your customer input
0:11:13 and all the things that they want to do.
0:11:14 What are some of the things?
0:11:17 – The biggest one is Robocall compensation.
0:11:18 So there are lots of apps that block Robocalls,
0:11:20 but none that get you some cash.
0:11:23 And we’re really excited about this one
0:11:25 because we actually give you a fake credit card
0:11:26 that you can give to the Robocaller
0:11:28 and it will get all of their details
0:11:29 to make it easier to sue them
0:11:32 when they try and run a fake transaction.
0:11:33 But in the longer term,
0:11:36 once you have five million people using Do Not Pay,
0:11:39 it almost gives like group leverage like a consumer union
0:11:41 to go to one of these big corporations
0:11:44 and say we have five million of your customers,
0:11:45 you better start treating them better
0:11:48 or we’ll switch them all to your competitor overnight
0:11:50 and at the same time flood you with legal requests.
0:11:52 So I think right now the leverage is in the law
0:11:56 and the individual, but soon it can be in like collective.
0:11:58 – And is there a fee associated with that?
0:12:01 – So right now Do Not Pay costs $3 a month
0:12:03 and the subscription only starts if you win.
0:12:05 So you can check it out for free.
0:12:07 And the most important aspect of that
0:12:09 is users keep 100% of what they save.
0:12:10 And we’re really looking to make it
0:12:12 as fair pricing as possible.
0:12:15 – And you’re getting something back in return.
0:12:17 Everybody has some type of issue with something or other
0:12:19 that wasn’t even fair
0:12:21 and seems like corporations are taking more advantage of you.
0:12:23 – McCarey, tell us a little bit
0:12:25 about your entrepreneurial journey.
0:12:28 Like how did you, you know, like what’s your background?
0:12:29 – I’ve always been an entrepreneur.
0:12:31 I basically learned to just work for myself
0:12:33 because I’ve already started working for somebody.
0:12:34 Like when I graduated from high school,
0:12:36 I worked for the weather channel.
0:12:38 Then I went and branched off to IBM.
0:12:40 And then after that, I then worked for my mom.
0:12:42 And then after that I did a development company
0:12:45 and then I decided to come out here from Atlanta, Georgia
0:12:48 to great California to actually go to Los Angeles film school
0:12:50 to pursue my dream in film.
0:12:51 – Oh, wow.
0:12:52 – Yeah, but that didn’t work out too well.
0:12:54 So I did a company for business branding.
0:12:56 Then that one kind of just went out on the wayside.
0:12:59 And then finally I was just, it just hit me,
0:12:59 it struck me one time,
0:13:02 but I guess I was in an adult situation.
0:13:05 And the thing was is that basically I literally tried
0:13:07 like all the different type of delivery services.
0:13:10 And none of them would deliver the essential products
0:13:13 that most people need when they are in situations like that.
0:13:14 And then when I tried to postmates,
0:13:16 I then tried to direct them like, okay,
0:13:18 I’ve already called the store.
0:13:19 The product is already on the counter.
0:13:20 You don’t have to worry about it.
0:13:21 It’s already ready to go.
0:13:23 Just pick it up and bring it in.
0:13:26 So I created like a 24/7 delivery service
0:13:29 for Los Angeles and it’s called Luber.
0:13:31 And it was like basically a on-demand delivery service
0:13:34 that do adult retail is what you need.
0:13:35 When you need it, we’ll bring it to you.
0:13:37 I mean, our slogan is basically,
0:13:39 we come even if no one else can.
0:13:42 So it’s just being, like I said, being a small business
0:13:43 is like you’re trying to find every little niche
0:13:46 to try to find something that will help you along the way.
0:13:49 I’ve had platform problems with like my websites,
0:13:51 with just a customer service or with like,
0:13:53 and these are huge companies that literally,
0:13:55 they do not care if they shut your business down
0:13:57 or if they put you on a hold or a freeze
0:13:59 because of something wrong with their system.
0:14:01 And I literally just went through a whole nightmare
0:14:03 during like the Christmas season and the New Year season
0:14:06 where all of a sudden the platform I was with
0:14:07 literally froze my account
0:14:09 because they went with a third party of developers
0:14:10 saying that, you know,
0:14:11 I didn’t want to renew my service with them
0:14:13 because they were actually ripping me off.
0:14:16 And I literally had a problem with trying to, you know,
0:14:18 give me my money back or at least open my site.
0:14:20 I was not late on my bill.
0:14:22 I literally did not want to renew my service.
0:14:24 So what they did was they held me hostage
0:14:26 or help my company hostage by shutting me down
0:14:29 on the most like busiest days of my company,
0:14:31 which is of course the holiday season.
0:14:34 So literally, like I had like inventory ready to go,
0:14:37 everything set to go and they froze it on Christmas day,
0:14:39 then they froze it on New Year’s day and then, and so on.
0:14:41 And I was like, okay, I can’t deal with this.
0:14:43 I even signed up for the big like, you know,
0:14:45 LinkedIn, like the premium service.
0:14:47 So I could literally write the head of the company
0:14:49 ’cause that’s the only way you never get to them.
0:14:50 Never got a response.
0:14:52 And so I finally did it through do not pay.
0:14:53 That’s at least fighting for me.
0:14:55 And I know that if they can’t get it solved,
0:14:57 it’ll at least keep my problem in front of their face
0:14:59 long enough that something’s gonna come of it.
0:15:02 And that’s what it actually did just recently.
0:15:04 I finally got access to like my old website.
0:15:06 So I could get at least my financials
0:15:08 and everything off of it so I can put on my new website.
0:15:10 Do not pay, I guess went and did something
0:15:12 with either the Better Business Bureau
0:15:15 or they did something where they actually got a route to them.
0:15:18 So it’s literally helped my company out tremendously.
0:15:19 – How do you think about that problem
0:15:21 that because you started with parking tickets
0:15:26 that people may not know that you’re their lawyer of choice
0:15:28 for every kind of dispute
0:15:31 that an individual might get into or a small business?
0:15:32 – It’s a tough problem.
0:15:35 People come to do not pay with this very episodic issue.
0:15:37 What we try and do is use the design of the app
0:15:41 to nudge them towards saving money in other areas.
0:15:44 So maybe in this case, someone comes for a parking ticket,
0:15:45 they finish their parking ticket appeal
0:15:48 and then a pop-up comes up as saying,
0:15:50 do you wanna appeal $50 a bank fees?
0:15:52 And then they can just one click press that
0:15:53 and move on to their next issue.
0:15:56 You can cancel any subscription with do not pay,
0:15:59 even one where you have to even mail in like a legal letter
0:16:01 just to cancel your subscription.
0:16:03 The most popular product is something we call
0:16:05 the free trial credit card,
0:16:08 which is a virtual credit card we give you through the app
0:16:09 and you can sign up for any free trial
0:16:11 and it automatically cancels it for you.
0:16:13 So you don’t have to worry about giving away
0:16:15 your financial information just to sign up
0:16:16 for a free trial for something.
0:16:18 What we’ve seen is a lot of power users
0:16:21 likes what’s being discussed as people come for one thing
0:16:23 and then all of a sudden try like 20 different things
0:16:24 and go crazy.
0:16:25 – Yeah, so in your estimation,
0:16:29 like what type of lawyer fees are we seeing save?
0:16:30 You know what I mean?
0:16:33 Like any litigation in America is very expensive.
0:16:35 – So on an aggregate level,
0:16:38 we’ve saved over $20 million in unfair fees
0:16:41 and lawyers typically charge 50% of what they save.
0:16:44 So maybe $10 million of legal fees.
0:16:45 And on an individual level,
0:16:50 we win cases from a $10 in-flight Wi-Fi refund
0:16:53 to $10,000 small claims dispute
0:16:55 against Equifax for the data breach.
0:16:56 Anything more than that,
0:16:58 we’re not sophisticated enough to argue yet,
0:17:01 but below $10,000, we’ve got you.
0:17:05 – So when you get into this customer service dispute
0:17:06 that McCurry had,
0:17:08 ’cause that sounds complicated, okay?
0:17:11 It’s a website, you know, they’re hosting service,
0:17:14 they take, they have his data,
0:17:16 they’re withholding it from him.
0:17:20 How did Do Not Pay figure out how to deal with that?
0:17:22 – So maybe the consumer wants a refund,
0:17:24 maybe they want access to their information.
0:17:26 In this case, it sounds like it’s both.
0:17:30 So it first finds out the goals
0:17:33 and then uses, like tries to match you
0:17:35 with legal justifications for those goals
0:17:37 and then sends it to the exact right place
0:17:39 for the people who can get it done.
0:17:42 In this case, the customer service is so bad
0:17:44 that the only way to actually get their attention
0:17:45 is to send them a legal notice
0:17:47 to their legal processing department.
0:17:49 And those people are actually efficient
0:17:53 at processing their claims and getting the right resolution.
0:17:56 – One of the things we talk a lot about in crypto world
0:17:58 is, you know, code as law.
0:18:01 And it seems like you’re ahead of the game on that.
0:18:05 You’ve got software that’s interprets the law.
0:18:06 So how does that all work?
0:18:07 – I completely agree.
0:18:09 I think law is society’s operating system.
0:18:12 And like it is just code.
0:18:14 Why is it so complicated to understand it?
0:18:16 Technology is based on rules
0:18:20 and it’s very good at understanding the different nuances.
0:18:23 The best processes are ones that can be submitted online.
0:18:26 And I think the most interesting technical angle
0:18:28 is everything comes from the user
0:18:31 and there’s nothing related to do not pay on the appeal.
0:18:34 So when we started appealing parking tickets,
0:18:36 all of a sudden we started sending thousands of appeals
0:18:38 to the local government and they just like shrugged
0:18:41 and said, we’re going to start ignoring these do not pay appeals.
0:18:43 So in response to that,
0:18:45 we decided to randomize all of the letters.
0:18:48 So every letter you get from do not pay is different.
0:18:49 (laughing)
0:18:52 – It’s like a denial of service attack on parking tickets.
0:18:53 – And then beyond that,
0:18:56 we use something called device side automation.
0:18:58 So lots of the automation and submitting the appeals
0:19:00 actually comes from the device,
0:19:02 which means that all of the technical fingerprints
0:19:05 like IP address and stuff like that
0:19:07 makes it seem like an organic user submission.
0:19:09 So when someone submits a claim from do not pay,
0:19:12 it just seems like they’re very knowledgeable about the law.
0:19:15 – All right, this is my want to be.
0:19:18 So how does one utilize it?
0:19:20 – So we have 150 different features
0:19:22 and I would say they fall into two categories.
0:19:24 Either you come to do not pay with a problem
0:19:27 or you’re just browsing and want free money back.
0:19:28 If it’s the latter category,
0:19:30 you can maybe connect to data source,
0:19:32 maybe link your transactions
0:19:33 and it will go through them
0:19:35 and figure out where the money lies.
0:19:37 So I think in the case of the bank of fear appeal,
0:19:40 lots of people don’t even know that they have these bank fees.
0:19:43 They’re just being silently collected from their account
0:19:44 and you can connect your bank account
0:19:47 and it will identify all of these opportunities for you.
0:19:49 – So okay, so you sign up like all,
0:19:50 just all your different bank accounts
0:19:53 and in the banks aren’t disputing
0:19:54 that you signed up for these fees?
0:19:57 Like how is it circumvent that process?
0:20:00 – So either the bank is making a legal promise to you.
0:20:01 So lots of credit cards.
0:20:03 If you see an ad for a credit card,
0:20:05 it’ll say no ATM fees.
0:20:07 But all of a sudden you go to an out-of-network ATM
0:20:09 that’s not owned by the bank
0:20:11 and you start getting the fees on your account
0:20:13 and the bank actually has to reimburse you for that
0:20:14 but you have to let them know.
0:20:17 So do not pay, identifies that and lets them know.
0:20:20 Separately maybe with overdraft fees.
0:20:23 Sometimes it’s the law, sometimes it’s customer service
0:20:26 where using all of this data that do not pay can compile.
0:20:27 It will make the best case
0:20:29 for why these fees should be appealed.
0:20:32 So like say, I’ve been a customer for X years,
0:20:34 I’ve held X minimum balance.
0:20:35 You should refund the fees.
0:20:39 – I literally the day before got an email saying,
0:20:44 congratulations, you just got $61.62 worth of like fees
0:20:46 from your bank back into your account.
0:20:47 I’m like, oh my God, this is great.
0:20:49 – So it works in the background.
0:20:50 – Oh wait, wait, wait.
0:20:52 So you start off with a parking ticket
0:20:53 and it’s like, well, by the way,
0:20:54 let me save you some cash.
0:20:58 – Originally what happened was, as he said before,
0:21:00 it starts to bill you when you win your case or whatever.
0:21:02 So if you win a case with them, then it starts,
0:21:03 and I’m like $3 a month,
0:21:06 like you just literally gave me my money back.
0:21:10 – So when you link your bank account to get reimbursed,
0:21:12 then it just starts working like,
0:21:14 oh, by the way, you got some money over here.
0:21:15 – That’s what it did.
0:21:16 It went through my transaction.
0:21:18 – No other law firm is proactive like that.
0:21:19 – It does ask you somewhere,
0:21:22 but once it’s on, it will get you the money back.
0:21:24 And because you’re keeping a hundred percent,
0:21:25 you don’t even have to worry.
0:21:26 – I cannot be the only one in this world
0:21:29 who like literally has like so many issues sometimes
0:21:32 where it’s like, can I not like, you know, lose to win?
0:21:33 Can I not like get something done?
0:21:35 – Well, you know, it’s so interesting
0:21:37 ’cause the financial services are like
0:21:40 low-key criminal organization
0:21:43 in that they sell you something,
0:21:46 they hit you with print, you can’t read things
0:21:49 that nobody would ever look at, all this kind of thing.
0:21:53 And then they work around all these laws.
0:21:54 So like, you know, they’re a usury law,
0:21:56 so nobody’s gonna charge you over that percentage,
0:22:00 but the overdraft fee, you know,
0:22:03 is way bigger than the interest would ever be
0:22:05 on a user’s requirements.
0:22:07 So they’re doing all this stuff
0:22:08 and there’s no way to fight it,
0:22:10 which is why nobody ever does.
0:22:13 – I had a small loan, I actually took the money out,
0:22:14 I paid it back.
0:22:16 There was one point where we kind of fell behind
0:22:17 a month or so.
0:22:20 And like literally the next thing you know,
0:22:21 all of a sudden they just start taking,
0:22:23 they decided what amounts they want to start
0:22:25 taking out of your account without letting you know.
0:22:27 So I literally, I’ve had to use do not pay
0:22:29 to actually try to get those fees back or whatever.
0:22:30 And I worked for that.
0:22:31 – So it worked and getting your fees back?
0:22:34 – Yeah, it definitely did because I was able to
0:22:37 at least express myself or show to the app itself,
0:22:39 like this money was taken for this
0:22:42 and here where they already took money out.
0:22:43 Like you can’t charge me an SFV
0:22:45 and then already take the money out.
0:22:46 It doesn’t work that way.
0:22:48 And so like, I’ve been able to show my bank like,
0:22:49 okay, you’re double dipping.
0:22:51 People, somebody’s double dipping here.
0:22:54 So it actually went through and actually found like two or three.
0:22:55 – Wow.
0:22:56 – So Jess, how do you go from like,
0:22:57 what was that moment where you was like,
0:23:00 okay, this is more than just helping my friends
0:23:02 beat dumb tickets to like,
0:23:04 oh, this is actually a business model
0:23:08 that can help people, but also that I can monetize.
0:23:10 – I think the reason it can be a business
0:23:13 is because you’re creating a huge amount of value for people.
0:23:14 And it’s a universal need.
0:23:16 We have homeless people use our product.
0:23:18 We have top VCs who use the product
0:23:20 to cancel their expensive equinox gym
0:23:22 and everyone in between.
0:23:24 We have a whole range of people
0:23:26 based on socioeconomic factors.
0:23:29 So it’s really everyone from a socioeconomic standpoint
0:23:32 and it skews older, about 80% on iPhone
0:23:34 and then the rest on web.
0:23:35 We don’t spend any money on marketing.
0:23:38 It’s all word of mouth and people talking about us
0:23:40 in the media and things like that.
0:23:43 Also, we post a lot of content on our website
0:23:46 and that ranks very highly organically on search engines.
0:23:49 So for example, if you search Sue United Airlines
0:23:50 with the number one result,
0:23:52 it’s more like they cancel a flight
0:23:55 or you cancel a flight and the refund just never went through.
0:23:57 So you never get your money back.
0:23:59 And so it’s a lot of this stuff.
0:24:01 – It’s not like they won’t give you your money
0:24:04 but they’ll make you jump through 30 flaming hoops.
0:24:05 – It’s really common.
0:24:06 I think it’s a business practice.
0:24:09 There’s this very famous Comcast calls
0:24:11 where someone phoned up Comcast
0:24:12 and they recorded it on YouTube
0:24:14 and they said, “I want to cancel my Comcast.”
0:24:17 And the Comcast representative held them up for an hour
0:24:20 rather than just canceling their service.
0:24:22 Do Not Pay actually has a product called Skip Weighting On Hold
0:24:24 that allows you to, a bot weights on hold
0:24:26 that transfers it to you.
0:24:28 – So I literally just got through moving.
0:24:29 You have to change your license,
0:24:31 you have to change everything else about everything.
0:24:33 And they actually have a thing where it says,
0:24:35 I think it’s like fill out government papers.
0:24:37 So like you click on that and then it says,
0:24:41 it gives you like CSA, DMV and like two other like items
0:24:41 or whatever.
0:24:42 Well, of course I need the DMV.
0:24:44 I also need to, you know, get my plates
0:24:45 and everything changed over.
0:24:47 Cause Los Angeles is very isonomous
0:24:49 for basically like pulling you over and saying,
0:24:51 “Oh, I’m sorry that this doesn’t fit the car.
0:24:52 This doesn’t feel whatever.”
0:24:54 Or they’ll try to find something on you.
0:24:56 And so basically I just like to try to stay on the up and up
0:24:57 when it comes to that,
0:24:58 especially being a delivery service.
0:25:00 So I was able to actually do that.
0:25:03 They actually made the appointment for me to actually go in
0:25:05 and actually do the thing for my plates
0:25:07 to change address or whatever.
0:25:08 – But what’s the difference between you just calling
0:25:10 and making an appointment yourself?
0:25:12 – I don’t know if you’ve ever called the DMV before
0:25:14 to even get to a person on the phone.
0:25:16 You have to wait the longest time ever.
0:25:18 So like literally it actually will sit up there
0:25:20 and do everything for you.
0:25:22 It’ll wait on hold the whole time for you.
0:25:25 And then it’ll ring you and let you know, like, hey,
0:25:26 you know, you pick up the phone and they’re like,
0:25:28 “Hi, you’ve been on hold for such and such.
0:25:29 How can I help you?” or whatever.
0:25:31 And it’s like, it took your place.
0:25:33 So it doesn’t work for you.
0:25:36 – Yeah, I mean, you’re clearly ahead of the bureaucracy.
0:25:40 Do you think they’ll try to catch up to you in any way
0:25:43 or they just like hopelessly slow
0:25:44 or how do you think about that?
0:25:46 – I think that in the long run,
0:25:48 we’re actually doing them a favor.
0:25:50 And that might sound a bit crazy to say,
0:25:53 but when Do Not Pay launched in Los Angeles
0:25:54 for parking tickets,
0:25:56 someone asked the head of the Los Angeles
0:25:58 parking enforcement, “What do you think about
0:26:00 all of these appeals that all of a sudden
0:26:02 come from Do Not Pay?”
0:26:04 And he said that, “Well, it’s actually quite good
0:26:06 because at least when they come from Do Not Pay,
0:26:07 it’s standardized.
0:26:09 People write such gibberish in their parking appeals.
0:26:11 It saves us processing time.”
0:26:13 And I think that Do Not Pay can actually help
0:26:17 in the long run by siphoning through the legitimate cases
0:26:19 and getting those people refunds quickly
0:26:21 and then also siphoning through the gibberish
0:26:23 and making sure everything is fair.
0:26:26 So hopefully a better, more efficient society
0:26:27 is good for everyone.
0:26:28 – So speaking of that,
0:26:30 I remember when I was in prison,
0:26:33 like guys would literally file lawsuits
0:26:35 for any and everything.
0:26:37 How have you seen any just kind of like
0:26:40 extremely ridiculous cases of people just being like,
0:26:43 oh, I want to litigate this or litigate that?
0:26:46 Or is there some type of way that it can kind of rule out
0:26:48 just frivolous like lawsuits?
0:26:51 – So we haven’t seen really any of that.
0:26:53 And I think the reason is that the crazies
0:26:55 already know how to abuse the system.
0:26:57 And really, this is a tool for people just entering in
0:26:59 to get their access to their rights.
0:27:01 The only frivolous lawsuit that I can think of
0:27:03 is when people try and test out
0:27:07 the sue product against us to get their $3 back.
0:27:09 And we just refund it in those cases.
0:27:12 – Probably lawyers from the big financial services firms.
0:27:15 – Yeah, and so Josh, one of the things that really stood out
0:27:19 is when you talked about how do not pay
0:27:21 is helping people establish their rights
0:27:22 and really get an understanding.
0:27:24 How does that work in a broader context
0:27:29 for people who may not on a normal circumstance
0:27:31 and know that they have a right to certain things
0:27:33 as opposed to just being disruptive?
0:27:36 – So I think that the system is stacked against everyone.
0:27:40 Like bank fees alone is $20 billion a year plus.
0:27:43 And that’s more than all election spending combined.
0:27:46 And so there are so many ways to get out of these fees.
0:27:49 So many laws that exist that have been created
0:27:52 to protect consumers, but nobody knows about them.
0:27:54 So there’s the small claims court process
0:27:57 where you can take companies to court for under $10,000
0:27:59 and lawyers are black band.
0:28:00 There’s the charge back process
0:28:02 where you can refund from your credit card.
0:28:05 All when companies are taking money out of your bank account
0:28:08 like we saw with the case we discussed earlier,
0:28:11 within 60 days, you can get that money back.
0:28:14 No questions asked based on the laws around ACH.
0:28:16 And so all of these laws exist
0:28:17 and the infrastructure exists,
0:28:18 but people don’t know about them.
0:28:20 And so do not pay can help fight
0:28:22 and get consumers their rights.
0:28:25 – So Josh McCurry, thank you for being here.
0:28:27 Thank you all for joining us today.
0:28:30 We’re really excited to see what the platform goes.
0:28:31 – Thank you.
0:28:33 (upbeat music)
0:28:36 (upbeat music)
0:28:39 (upbeat music)
0:28:41 you
0:28:51 [BLANK_AUDIO]

0:00:02 (upbeat music)
0:00:15 – Welcome to this episode of Hustling Tech.
0:00:19 Today we’re gonna talk about how to take way better care
0:00:23 of the elderly and make a living in doing so.
0:00:27 With me, I have Sesternberg co-founder and CEO of Honor.
0:00:30 I’ve got our hustler, Samantha,
0:00:33 who’s gonna tell us how she makes use of Honor.
0:00:36 And then I have with me as always my co-host
0:00:39 who hustled out of the joint to become a leader,
0:00:43 advocate, management consultant, Shaka Senghor.
0:00:44 – I’m really excited to talk to you.
0:00:47 What was the inspiration behind Honor?
0:00:49 – Yeah, so the inspiration was my mother.
0:00:50 When she picked me up at the airport
0:00:53 and was driving me home, she was just driving slowly.
0:00:55 And I was like, what does this mean for five years from now
0:00:58 or 10 years from now, ’cause she lives in Connecticut.
0:00:59 And I don’t wanna be the son
0:01:01 who ever has to say to his mother,
0:01:03 “Hey, I’m sorry, mom, you have to leave your home.”
0:01:07 And so myself and my co-founders looked for any solution
0:01:10 around helping the elderly remain in their homes as they age.
0:01:12 And we found home care.
0:01:15 It’s just really hard to figure out who to trust,
0:01:18 who to turn to, where to go.
0:01:20 And it’s not just hard for you,
0:01:21 someone who needs to figure out care
0:01:23 for your grandmother or your parents.
0:01:26 It’s hard for the folks who work in home care.
0:01:28 Really early on, we identified
0:01:31 that we’re not a normal tech company,
0:01:33 no customer cares about our technology.
0:01:36 They only care about the person who’s gonna go into the home
0:01:38 and serve their mom or their dad.
0:01:42 And so first of all, we call those folks care pros,
0:01:45 care professionals, and that’s a unique name to Honor.
0:01:48 And we did that because when we talked to care pros,
0:01:51 they told us that they generally feel disrespected.
0:01:52 And so starting Honor was really
0:01:53 about helping the elderly,
0:01:56 but then also doing what we call care for the care pros.
0:01:59 – You know, trust is an interesting word
0:02:02 ’cause it’s kind of beyond okay, are they competent?
0:02:06 It’s who do I trust to be in my home with me
0:02:09 who I can get along with and all that kind of thing.
0:02:14 And elderly people are not very flexible generally
0:02:16 in like who they can get along with.
0:02:20 – So it’s not just your classic like super hands-off,
0:02:22 everybody’s a contractor thing,
0:02:24 because training is critical.
0:02:28 All of our care pros are actually W2 employees of Honor.
0:02:30 In this space where someone literally will walk
0:02:33 into the home of your mom
0:02:37 and potentially give her a bath to your point bed on trust,
0:02:39 knowing that that person’s like really good
0:02:41 and vetted is a super big deal.
0:02:45 One of the issues about taking care of the elderly
0:02:48 is that their needs are very specific.
0:02:51 One specific kind of need is who they like.
0:02:54 Another specific kind of need might be the care pro,
0:02:58 who is dementia trained, who is not allergic to cats,
0:03:01 who she gets along with, who lives near where she lives,
0:03:03 who is available on her schedule.
0:03:06 And so to be able to get the right matches
0:03:09 is a really big deal also for the care pros
0:03:10 because one of the things that we found
0:03:15 is one of the dominant things that makes a care pro happy
0:03:17 and helps the care pro reform better
0:03:19 is if you put them in situations
0:03:22 that are more appropriate to their skills
0:03:23 and their personalities.
0:03:26 And then the technology that we build
0:03:29 is really just about how do we do that at scale
0:03:32 so that you can choose from thousands of care pros
0:03:34 against thousands of customers
0:03:36 and kind of know how to make those matches appropriately.
0:03:40 – So Samantha, tell us a little bit more about your journey.
0:03:42 – So I was working as a nurse in London
0:03:46 before I moved here around four and a half years ago.
0:03:48 I studied my nursing in the Philippines
0:03:52 and then in London, it’s different from the United States.
0:03:54 When I became a nurse, when I applied from the Philippines,
0:03:57 it was easier because they hired you
0:03:59 because you’ve already just give you a six months probation.
0:04:03 So they see how you work, how you interact with the clients,
0:04:06 what you know, the knowledge you know, how you do your work.
0:04:09 So that’s how they basically hire you.
0:04:10 And like here, it’s different
0:04:13 because there’s another exam that you need to pass,
0:04:16 the NCLEX, which is the licensure examination
0:04:17 that you have to take here.
0:04:19 And that’s everything.
0:04:21 And in the nursing field here in America,
0:04:22 it’s pretty challenging
0:04:24 because if you’re a foreign nurse,
0:04:27 they basically tell you you’re not qualified
0:04:29 to be a nurse in the United States.
0:04:32 You have to take some courses to enhance your studies.
0:04:34 Sometimes they tell you to do the whole thing.
0:04:36 Sometimes it depends on who assesses your grades
0:04:38 and your transcript of records.
0:04:40 So it can be luck sometimes.
0:04:42 – And that’s amazing that, you know,
0:04:45 we have care pro shortages, nursing shortages here.
0:04:50 And then we have a bureaucracy that makes only some sense.
0:04:53 I mean, it’s such an important thing just societally.
0:04:56 This is a lot about a society of how it cares for its elderly.
0:04:59 And we just don’t do a very good job of it yet, I think.
0:05:01 So did you grow up in the Philippines?
0:05:02 – I did grow up in the Philippines
0:05:04 and I finished my college there.
0:05:06 – Amazing, home of Manny Pacquiao.
0:05:09 – Yes, home of the champions.
0:05:11 And yeah, so that’s how it started.
0:05:14 And then I moved to Spain because I was half Spanish.
0:05:16 I was able to move there, live there,
0:05:18 and start my career there.
0:05:19 And I started working as a caregiver
0:05:22 because in Spain, you have to convalidate your studies
0:05:25 and it was not as easy when you’re a foreign nurse,
0:05:28 which is the same thing happening in the United States nowadays.
0:05:31 And so caregiving was always the first thing you do
0:05:33 when you start in the medical field.
0:05:35 And so that’s like the startup thing to do.
0:05:37 So your training starts from there,
0:05:39 obviously from what you’ve learned in college as well.
0:05:42 And then you put your practice all together.
0:05:43 And so it started there.
0:05:45 And so when I moved here a couple of years back,
0:05:47 I worked with different agencies.
0:05:48 – And how is that?
0:05:52 – It can be a challenge because the thing is with caregivers,
0:05:53 you have to be a match with your clients.
0:05:55 And your clients have to like you.
0:05:57 For them to have you keep coming back.
0:06:03 So once you go to their homes and you’re given a shift,
0:06:05 you have to make sure that you are confident.
0:06:07 You have to show them that you know what you’re doing,
0:06:08 especially with dementia patients,
0:06:11 that sometimes they will not know exactly
0:06:13 what they’re doing at certain times.
0:06:15 And they might forget exactly what they did
0:06:17 an hour or 30 minutes ago.
0:06:19 So you have to be that guide to them.
0:06:23 And you have to be that strong backbone that they can trust.
0:06:26 And also, you know, just feel safe.
0:06:28 I think that’s the most important thing.
0:06:30 Obviously there’s a personality match
0:06:33 because in this job it’s very interpersonal.
0:06:35 So you really have to be a match.
0:06:38 Not only with a client, sometimes with a whole family
0:06:40 because you’re not just dealing with a client.
0:06:42 You deal with a whole family.
0:06:44 And some families have different stories
0:06:46 and different things that they go through
0:06:48 and issues that they go through
0:06:50 that, you know, you need to be part of.
0:06:52 And one thing that with families that I always know
0:06:54 is communication is a big deal.
0:06:56 Yes, the app helps a lot.
0:06:58 Not only just to find work
0:07:01 because the app also you write your shift notes.
0:07:03 So basically it’s very beneficial for family members
0:07:06 that don’t live close to their families
0:07:08 or to the clients or to their parents
0:07:09 that we take care of.
0:07:11 Because there they can see what we did
0:07:13 throughout our shift.
0:07:16 So basically, if they ate what they ate,
0:07:18 the amount of food,
0:07:20 if they were able to go to the bathroom,
0:07:21 all of these things.
0:07:24 And so that way they’re able to check on their parents
0:07:25 and communication is open
0:07:28 based on the shift notes that we do.
0:07:29 So what is that experience like
0:07:31 from the family’s perspective?
0:07:34 For customers, we look like a normal home care agency.
0:07:37 So we will go into your mom’s home.
0:07:39 It cannot be done over the phone with you.
0:07:41 And then we figure out what the care plan is.
0:07:45 And then once we know what the care plan for your mom is,
0:07:46 then we can figure out which care pros
0:07:48 or the best care pros.
0:07:49 So it doesn’t matter who you are,
0:07:50 you want the phone.
0:07:55 Because this is who might give your mom a bath
0:07:57 in your mom’s home when you’re not there.
0:07:58 That’s scary.
0:08:03 And so people do not trust not hearing a human voice yet.
0:08:08 What we find is as people start to use honor,
0:08:10 then they switch over to the tech.
0:08:13 So then they change the schedule on the app.
0:08:16 Then they request more help on the app.
0:08:18 Then they change the care plan on the app.
0:08:21 But it’s after they’ve been using it for a period of time
0:08:22 because trust has been built up.
0:08:25 So stuff like the notes.
0:08:27 Samantha talked about that the care pros leave
0:08:29 is literally the customer’s number one favorite feature
0:08:31 because it brings them into the home
0:08:34 and they can see what mom and dad did
0:08:35 with the care pro from honor.
0:08:37 Or what we call the wellness check.
0:08:40 The wellness check is basically how their mood was
0:08:42 on that day, how they slept.
0:08:45 So there’s different tabs that you need to click.
0:08:48 How happy were they for that day from zero to 10?
0:08:51 Their pain level while you were on the shift.
0:08:54 So they are aware of basically what’s really happening.
0:08:56 Transparency, right?
0:08:59 So for the kids, right, which is usually the family.
0:09:01 And when I say kid, I usually mean a 40 to 60 year old.
0:09:03 Right, you mean me.
0:09:04 Yeah, exactly.
0:09:07 So the design point for the app for our care pros
0:09:09 is to empower them.
0:09:10 It’s professionalization.
0:09:12 So know what’s expected of you.
0:09:14 Give you the training.
0:09:14 Give you the tools.
0:09:17 Put you into the right environment
0:09:19 where you can use that training and tools
0:09:20 and be successful and then tell you
0:09:22 how you’re doing rewards consequences.
0:09:24 So that’s professionalizing care pros.
0:09:26 And that’s what our app is basically designed to do for them.
0:09:28 So like client profiles, because that’s a tool.
0:09:31 So for the customers, what we think about
0:09:33 is basically transparency.
0:09:36 So it’s scary because someone’s going to your home.
0:09:40 They’re very intimate with your mom or dad.
0:09:43 They’re going to be intimate with you as well at some level.
0:09:46 And so how can we show you and demystify
0:09:47 what’s actually happening?
0:09:49 So with that established that trust
0:09:52 and going into it from the wellness checkpoint,
0:09:55 is it like it’s an easy way to just notify them via the app?
0:09:57 Yeah, so one thing that happens
0:10:00 is they literally just get after every visit the note.
0:10:02 They could see like, you know, mom’s pain threshold
0:10:05 is usually four, today she said seven.
0:10:08 So like they can see, oh, something changed.
0:10:09 Like I should figure out what’s going on with mom.
0:10:12 And that’s a new level of kind of, you know,
0:10:14 data information that people didn’t have before.
0:10:18 But now, you know, we get literally a Dickens novel
0:10:22 worth of like notes from care pros every single day.
0:10:24 Humans can’t read that much information.
0:10:29 So our computer can literally read all the notes
0:10:33 and determine when it believes a fall may have occurred,
0:10:35 even when honor wasn’t at the home,
0:10:37 and even if the word fall was never used.
0:10:40 Literally, the note might say, you know,
0:10:42 it’s fall outside and we went for a walk,
0:10:43 the computer will ignore it.
0:10:45 But the note might say, I arrived at the home,
0:10:49 Mr. Smith was on the floor, I helped him get up,
0:10:51 he was a little bit sore, and the computer will see it.
0:10:53 And flag, there may have been a fall,
0:10:55 and then our care managers can intervene
0:10:57 and notify the family.
0:11:00 So this is just like crazy stuff that you can start to do
0:11:03 if you build it into your platform.
0:11:05 And are the family members, is it sometimes
0:11:08 that the family member had been the caregiver
0:11:09 and then is transferring it to honor?
0:11:12 So almost always the family members
0:11:14 at some level are the caregivers.
0:11:15 The question is, are they there or not?
0:11:17 And even if they live far away,
0:11:19 oftentimes they’re helping with like paying bills
0:11:21 and, you know, kind of lining up supports,
0:11:23 lining up to doctors, is it on the phone?
0:11:27 Usually 24/7 then we’re often like
0:11:29 the dominant provider of care.
0:11:31 Another thing I was curious about was whether
0:11:33 there’s this interact with insurance companies,
0:11:36 like how do families pay for the services?
0:11:39 So non-medical home care today,
0:11:41 which is like helping with activities daily living,
0:11:42 so these things like getting out of bed,
0:11:44 getting food, getting dressed,
0:11:46 is usually not covered by insurance.
0:11:49 So if you need something like IV changed
0:11:50 or if you need a wound pack,
0:11:53 like if you’re breaching skin, that usually is.
0:11:56 But in our world it’s either people
0:11:57 are usually paying out of pocket
0:12:00 or they’re using long-term care insurance.
0:12:02 So if they did purchase long-term care insurance
0:12:05 and about 30% of our customers have long-term care insurance.
0:12:09 And how does that cost compared to, you know,
0:12:11 putting them in a home or that kind of thing?
0:12:13 So basically the kind of crossover point
0:12:15 is about 50 hours a week.
0:12:19 So if they’re getting honor for like less than 50 hours a week,
0:12:20 it’s probably cheaper to use honor.
0:12:23 And if it’s more than 50 hours a week,
0:12:25 if it’s literally just about money,
0:12:26 you would choose a facility.
0:12:30 The trick with facilities is most people don’t want to be there.
0:12:33 A lot of my clients actually do prefer to stay in their homes.
0:12:37 I believe that a lot of my clients that have worked hard,
0:12:41 they believe that their money should be used towards them.
0:12:43 So they always fight, you know,
0:12:44 for the money to be spent on them.
0:12:47 Because sometimes there’s a connotation,
0:12:49 like family members think,
0:12:53 oh, because my mom is old, oh, let’s put her in a facility
0:12:55 and then let’s have somebody else take care of them.
0:12:56 But that’s not what they want.
0:12:59 And it’s a battle when it comes to that,
0:13:00 because they think, oh,
0:13:03 but I have all this money to pay for my care.
0:13:06 Why can’t I keep my caregivers in my house
0:13:09 where I feel comfortable, where this is my home,
0:13:10 I’ve lived here all my life,
0:13:12 then to go to a new home
0:13:14 and have to deal with other people that live there.
0:13:17 So that’s always a dilemma when it comes to the care industry.
0:13:21 – Do people want to put their parents
0:13:26 in a facility because of cost
0:13:28 and so they can get the rest of the money
0:13:31 they don’t know about in home care or what drives that?
0:13:34 – I think it’s all about the cost.
0:13:35 That’s what I feel.
0:13:36 Because some clients don’t have dementia.
0:13:38 I’ve had clients that I took care of
0:13:42 and they reach 100, 102 years old with no dementia.
0:13:45 Just basically you’re just helping them on the day to day,
0:13:48 like with their food, with their baths,
0:13:50 not everybody has dementia,
0:13:53 so they can still make decisions for themselves.
0:13:55 And sometimes it’s a battle with the family
0:13:56 because they feel like their decisions
0:13:58 for their parents are better than their own.
0:14:00 And so it becomes a battle.
0:14:03 But it’s always about the money, unfortunately.
0:14:05 – A lot of videos come out of elders
0:14:07 being abused in these places.
0:14:09 So with that in mind,
0:14:12 does honor interact with a nest or something like that
0:14:15 where people can actually visibly see
0:14:17 the care that’s going on in the home?
0:14:19 – Yeah, so we’ve run the experiment.
0:14:23 And oddly, when you ask our customers if they want cameras,
0:14:24 it’s very unpopular.
0:14:29 So the home care agency kind of industry today,
0:14:31 the way it does quality is either
0:14:34 what it hears from customers or random home visits.
0:14:36 We do random home visits.
0:14:38 We partner with our partners to do that.
0:14:39 We’ve actually started our own program
0:14:41 where we do it even outside of our partners.
0:14:44 But we get a ton of data from the app
0:14:46 that’s kind of inferred data
0:14:49 that can point you to where there might be problems.
0:14:52 And so even though you’re not seeing a signal
0:14:54 that says physical abuse,
0:14:57 you’re seeing signals that indicate
0:14:58 lack of care pro quality.
0:15:02 And then you can take action before, hopefully,
0:15:04 you end up in like a truly bad situation.
0:15:06 – How important is it for the caregivers
0:15:08 to be taken into consideration
0:15:12 in regards to their needs as a caregiver as well?
0:15:15 – So what you find broadly in the industry
0:15:18 is people usually will work
0:15:21 for like two or three agencies at a time
0:15:24 because each agency is too small
0:15:26 to have enough customers
0:15:29 that fit the very specific skills of that caregiver.
0:15:31 – I used to work with three agencies
0:15:35 because the thing is you always have to have plan A,
0:15:36 plan B, and plan C.
0:15:39 Because the thing is anything can happen with the elderly.
0:15:40 They can pass away.
0:15:42 They might have to budget.
0:15:44 So they cut down hours.
0:15:46 So you lose some of your hours.
0:15:48 And you don’t have that consistency.
0:15:49 Sometimes you lose a job
0:15:51 and what if you’re not a fit for the next client?
0:15:54 Then almost a week or two, you have no income
0:15:56 because you get paid as you work.
0:15:58 – So now all of a sudden you’ve got
0:16:00 like a 25 or 30% pay cut
0:16:03 because that agency doesn’t have new work for you next week.
0:16:04 So what do you do?
0:16:07 And so you have to kind of find another agency
0:16:09 that has work, which might conflict
0:16:10 with like one of those other agencies
0:16:11 you’re already working for.
0:16:16 And so thinking about how you can take care of someone
0:16:18 and even just like making sure
0:16:20 that you can get them very consistent hours
0:16:24 to support their needs in life is a really big deal.
0:16:25 And it’s part of the reason
0:16:28 why having a full network was very important.
0:16:30 So we’d have so much demand that Samantha,
0:16:34 and everybody likes Samantha, could keep consistent work.
0:16:36 – What does that look like when you log in
0:16:39 and like, you know, are you like a basketball player?
0:16:40 Like, yo, let me see what kind of numbers
0:16:41 I put up tonight.
0:16:42 Like, what do you?
0:16:45 – Yes, well, it actually some motivation, I think.
0:16:46 It helps a lot.
0:16:48 So you know, you keep yourself in check
0:16:51 because sometimes you could get very comfortable as well
0:16:53 when clients like you and you’re doing good
0:16:55 and you’re getting jobs and everything.
0:16:58 But you know, there are also times that it’s not the case.
0:17:02 So the app just doesn’t help you with how you’re doing.
0:17:04 Some clients will make you a favorite.
0:17:06 Some clients will give feedback to the agency
0:17:08 and then the care managers will let you know,
0:17:10 here are the things you can improve,
0:17:12 here are the things you’re doing really well.
0:17:13 So I think that helps a lot.
0:17:16 And then in the app also, you can see different clients.
0:17:18 And I think if you really know
0:17:21 which scope of practice you’re good at,
0:17:24 then by reading the care plans of different clients
0:17:27 that have available shifts, you will know if you’re a fit.
0:17:28 And when you apply for it,
0:17:32 it doesn’t really like approve you right away for that job.
0:17:34 The care managers normally check first
0:17:36 and then they allow you to work on that shift
0:17:39 based on your experiences
0:17:40 and if you’re a fit,
0:17:42 if they feel that you’re a fit for that work.
0:17:43 And Seth, with that, what would you say
0:17:45 that the average difference is
0:17:48 between somebody who’s on honor versus a caregiver
0:17:50 who’s not in terms of salary?
0:17:55 You know, that average difference is maybe 10%.
0:17:57 It’s not that much.
0:17:59 The difference is, do you get surprised
0:18:03 because all the sudden next week, the difference is 50%.
0:18:08 So what will happen is like, you’ve got two clients,
0:18:09 two different agencies,
0:18:11 half your times with one client,
0:18:12 half your times with another client,
0:18:13 one of those clients passes away.
0:18:16 50% pay cut next week.
0:18:19 So it’s like those moments of panic.
0:18:21 Because that literally can impact food
0:18:24 and that can impact transportation to school for your kids.
0:18:25 I mean, that’s a big deal.
0:18:28 And so it’s more about not having those
0:18:33 like momentary, extremely painful experiences.
0:18:36 I’ve never had no job.
0:18:38 Like I’ve always consistently have a job
0:18:41 because not only is their network big,
0:18:44 they work with different small agencies as well.
0:18:46 And they’re the ones that provide them with caregivers.
0:18:49 And especially me, I like to work during the nights.
0:18:52 And it’s always a challenge to have 24 hours
0:18:53 because of the expense as well.
0:18:55 Tell us a little bit about your life
0:18:58 and like at home and like, who are you taking care of?
0:19:00 Yeah, so I’m also a full-time mom.
0:19:03 So that’s why I always prefer to work during the night
0:19:04 so I can be with my son.
0:19:06 So yeah, I’m a full-time mom
0:19:08 and I’m also currently studying for my nursing
0:19:10 so that I can get back to my BSN.
0:19:13 So I’m doing that, I’m working on that.
0:19:14 And as at the same time,
0:19:16 I work at least four to five night shifts with honor.
0:19:20 So obviously the distance where you’re working as well
0:19:22 helps a lot because if you find clients
0:19:24 that are closer to where you live
0:19:25 or in the area where you live,
0:19:27 then that is also a bonus.
0:19:30 So those are one of the things that care professionals look for.
0:19:32 And of course, a start time as well
0:19:34 because like for me,
0:19:36 I have to drop my son to school and pick him up.
0:19:38 So almost I have to do a seven to seven
0:19:41 or seven 30 to seven 30 shifts
0:19:42 because if I do an eight to eight,
0:19:45 then I’m not going to be home enough to drop off my son.
0:19:47 And then like Seth was saying,
0:19:50 also what you’re trained to do,
0:19:52 what your capacity is as a caregiver,
0:19:54 because sometimes some clients are harder for you
0:19:56 and it’s just not going to work out.
0:19:58 When you look for a client as well,
0:19:59 it has to be a fit,
0:20:02 not only personality-wise, but also the job.
0:20:04 Am I going to be able to lift this person
0:20:07 or am I going to be able to help this person with his transfers
0:20:10 to help him go to the shower, the baths?
0:20:12 What are their expectations for my cooking,
0:20:14 for my meal preparation?
0:20:17 We don’t do any medications because we’re non-medical.
0:20:20 So that’s on the side, the families do that.
0:20:22 So these are things that you also look out,
0:20:25 the environment, what type of home I’m going into.
0:20:28 Obviously, you know, there are really nice homes
0:20:30 and there are homes that are different.
0:20:32 So those are things that you look for.
0:20:35 So the easy way to think about our heart
0:20:37 is to kind of match what people need
0:20:38 with what care pros can do.
0:20:42 Is if you think about like getting a car, Uber or Lyft,
0:20:45 a rider looks like a rider.
0:20:48 So like all of us look the same to Uber, basically.
0:20:51 And all the drivers, you know, look the same to Uber.
0:20:53 And so they just have to make a simple match.
0:20:56 We have to think about pretty complex stuff,
0:21:00 not just a personality basis,
0:21:03 but something like, okay, this person has diabetes
0:21:05 or this person has dementia.
0:21:07 This person has steps in their home
0:21:09 and they need lifting and transferring support.
0:21:14 So like, is this Care Pro a medium or a high
0:21:17 on the skill of lifting and transferring
0:21:20 because this customer needs support
0:21:22 to get out of bed and get into a wheelchair
0:21:24 and then get out of the wheelchair and get into a bath.
0:21:27 And then this person has cats.
0:21:29 And so the Care Pro for that home
0:21:31 has to be like a medium or a high
0:21:33 on lifting and transferring and not allergic to cats.
0:21:35 So now we’ve got like an innate skill,
0:21:39 which is basically, innately, you are or are not allergic to cats.
0:21:41 And then a learned skill, lifting and transferring.
0:21:45 And so matching is a very nuanced thing
0:21:49 because we would say that it’s a two-sided heterogeneous marketplace.
0:21:51 Everybody’s got different skills and different needs.
0:21:55 How do you find the caregivers to allow them to engage in this?
0:21:58 So we basically start top of funnel.
0:22:00 How do you find people in mass?
0:22:02 And most of that happens online.
0:22:04 So we tried stuff like going to nursing schools,
0:22:05 going to vocational schools.
0:22:08 We didn’t get the amount of volume that we needed.
0:22:12 So it turned out that online and using job networks
0:22:14 produced a pretty good top of funnel.
0:22:16 And then we have some automated systems
0:22:18 that basically figure out are people qualified
0:22:20 for kind of honor specific qualifications.
0:22:22 And then people go through a phone screen
0:22:25 and then people go through an in-person assessment.
0:22:28 And then ultimately they can be approved to be an honors platform.
0:22:31 Right now, it’s pretty hard to make it through the funnel.
0:22:34 Like the acceptance rate bounces between kind of five and 10%.
0:22:37 So we really are looking for like the best people.
0:22:38 What are you looking for?
0:22:41 Like, so if I wanted to get in, what do I need to be?
0:22:42 So it depends on the state a little bit.
0:22:44 So there are different requirements by state.
0:22:46 But fundamentally, you need to have six months
0:22:49 paid experience of being a caregiver.
0:22:51 You will have to have a clean drug test.
0:22:53 So we do drug tests to everybody.
0:22:55 And then we assess skills.
0:22:57 So like when people get to the point
0:22:59 where they’re coming in to honor,
0:23:02 they’ll literally do like a lifting and transferring exercise
0:23:02 in the office.
0:23:07 They’ll be assessed for like their familiarity with and comfort
0:23:08 with working with people with dementia
0:23:10 that Samantha was referencing.
0:23:12 So you’ve been for all these things.
0:23:13 So what about the families?
0:23:15 Like what happens when you run into that difficult
0:23:19 family member that’s just like all over the place?
0:23:21 And making it really difficult to get care for?
0:23:22 Like what happens there?
0:23:24 You know, so it’s really interesting.
0:23:26 There are customers who are super easy to serve.
0:23:29 There are customers that are super hard to serve,
0:23:31 kind of for two different reasons.
0:23:35 Either their needs, like their absolute needs are difficult.
0:23:39 Let’s say someone weighs 350 pounds
0:23:41 and they need lifting and transferring support.
0:23:42 That’s difficult.
0:23:45 Or let’s say someone’s kind of late-stage dementia.
0:23:46 That’s difficult.
0:23:48 And then there is this other kind of difficult,
0:23:49 which you’re referencing, I think,
0:23:51 which is personality difficult.
0:23:54 And it can be either the person who needs care
0:23:55 or it can be the family.
0:23:58 And so what we try to do there really is matching.
0:24:01 Again, it goes back to like this CarePro
0:24:04 with their personality and their skill set
0:24:06 is better for this particular kind of customer.
0:24:09 There’s also price differentiation.
0:24:13 So you might have a customer who is really difficult to serve.
0:24:17 And it might be that CarePros are paid more
0:24:21 to serve that person because of the unique needs of that person.
0:24:23 And so therefore, it earns a higher wage.
0:24:27 I agree with Seth that there can be very difficult clients
0:24:28 and difficult families.
0:24:31 And with my experience, it’s pretty amazing
0:24:33 because sometimes your client’s really awesome,
0:24:34 but the family’s not.
0:24:35 They’re hard.
0:24:36 We hear that a lot, actually.
0:24:36 Yes.
0:24:38 And I think that most of my clients,
0:24:39 that’s always been the problem.
0:24:42 That they’re pretty easy.
0:24:44 They get along with the caregivers.
0:24:47 But the family sometimes make it about themselves.
0:24:50 And they forget it’s about the people that we’re taking care of.
0:24:52 And that makes it a challenge.
0:24:54 So for example, I had a client before.
0:24:56 And then, well, he was living with a daughter
0:24:57 because the situation changed.
0:25:00 The mom couldn’t take care because she was elderly.
0:25:00 So he moved in.
0:25:02 The client moved in with a daughter.
0:25:04 And she was all over.
0:25:05 We are trained.
0:25:06 We do our jobs and everything.
0:25:07 But she was always there.
0:25:10 So it was hard to do your job.
0:25:11 And it makes it a challenge.
0:25:14 And she just sometimes tells you, oh, you need to do this.
0:25:16 And then she gives you instructions
0:25:18 and then changes it the next moment.
0:25:22 So that makes it challenging because you want to work in peace.
0:25:24 You want to go happy to your job.
0:25:26 Especially if you’re experienced.
0:25:27 You know what you’re doing.
0:25:30 You want them to trust you, but they don’t really trust you.
0:25:32 Literally looking over your shoulder.
0:25:32 Yeah.
0:25:33 So that makes it challenging.
0:25:35 And sometimes just family turmoil.
0:25:37 The siblings don’t get along.
0:25:39 Some people want different things for their parents.
0:25:41 The others want different things.
0:25:44 And they don’t get along so their parents go confused.
0:25:46 They’re like, so who am I going to follow here?
0:25:49 And then as a caregiver, that makes it challenging
0:25:51 because you go inside a job and then you’re like,
0:25:52 okay, so who are my bosses here?
0:25:53 Who do I listen to here?
0:25:55 Is it the client they take care of
0:25:58 or the children that are two sides telling me what to do?
0:25:59 Who do you listen to?
0:26:01 To my client and to honor.
0:26:04 So if I almost call honor and my care managers,
0:26:06 if there’s anything like that that happens
0:26:08 and I feel uncomfortable,
0:26:10 I make them deal with the family members.
0:26:12 And they’re the ones that call and say,
0:26:14 hey, the caregiver’s saying that this and this.
0:26:16 And if they really like you,
0:26:17 they’ll try to mend things a little bit
0:26:19 because they don’t want to lose you
0:26:21 because they know that they can trust you
0:26:22 to take care of their parents.
0:26:23 But you need to talk to them.
0:26:27 One thing that we find is honor’s platform
0:26:30 is great for noticing like, look,
0:26:33 this family member called and said a care pro is late.
0:26:35 But they weren’t late because we’re tracking the GPS check.
0:26:36 Yes, we have the app.
0:26:37 So you cannot clock in or clock out
0:26:40 unless you’re in the premises of the client.
0:26:43 And so why would the family say they’re late
0:26:43 if they’re on time?
0:26:47 Probably what happened is the mom or dad
0:26:50 told their son or daughter that the care pro is late.
0:26:52 And probably that person has dementia
0:26:54 or actually we’ve discovered
0:26:55 that it’s a good way to find out
0:26:57 when people are slipping into dementia.
0:26:59 So like no one knew.
0:27:01 And then they kind of tell their kids,
0:27:04 hey, you know, Samantha was late
0:27:06 and it’s like, well, she wasn’t.
0:27:07 And it happens too often.
0:27:10 You know, my grandmother had dementia at the end
0:27:12 and I was living with her in New York
0:27:13 because I was going to school there
0:27:16 and convincing my father that that was the case
0:27:18 because she would answer the phone to talk to him.
0:27:21 And she was, you know, like that was her.
0:27:23 She would say, okay, I’m going to get my best five minutes
0:27:24 in right now.
0:27:27 And she would be sharp, witty, interesting,
0:27:28 this and that and the other.
0:27:29 And then the next thing, you know,
0:27:31 she would watch the same news program
0:27:32 like six times in a row.
0:27:34 And I’m like, no, grandma’s slipping.
0:27:35 Oh, no, no, grandma’s fine.
0:27:36 And so it is-
0:27:38 I had a client that actually said I wasn’t there.
0:27:42 When her family called, she said, nobody’s here.
0:27:44 And I’m like, well, I’m right here.
0:27:46 And so they hear me over the phone.
0:27:49 And then they say, oh, Samantha, we’re glad we know you’re there.
0:27:51 You know, because they know that they hire you
0:27:53 and they know that you’re supposed to be there.
0:27:55 But when they talk, sometimes they’re like,
0:27:57 as if nobody’s there, like they’re on their own.
0:28:00 And that’s their part of, you know,
0:28:01 wanting to do things by themselves.
0:28:03 You know, because, you know,
0:28:05 they’ve lived all their life being independent.
0:28:06 You live here in America.
0:28:06 You have no help.
0:28:08 You do everything for yourself.
0:28:10 And then now you start to accept help from other people.
0:28:12 That’s kind of like a challenge for them.
0:28:14 How have families responded to that, though,
0:28:17 when there’s a recognition that their love one is slipping
0:28:19 into dementia and when they weren’t even aware?
0:28:22 So there’s a saying, the customer’s always right.
0:28:25 And so when you don’t have the data,
0:28:27 you assume the customer’s always right.
0:28:30 And you say to the family, oh, I’m so, so sorry.
0:28:32 We’ll make sure that that care pros not late again.
0:28:34 But when you have the data,
0:28:37 it’s so powerful because it helps the family.
0:28:39 You’re able to say, you know what?
0:28:39 You’re not right.
0:28:42 But that helps because now you recognize
0:28:44 that your mom has a new need.
0:28:48 And so we actually have a process around
0:28:51 what we call reevaluation, where we have a customer,
0:28:53 we’re serving them with a certain care plan.
0:28:55 And then we learn some stuff, either, you know,
0:28:57 care pros report something that happens in the home
0:28:59 or the family reports something
0:29:01 or our partner reports something.
0:29:03 And so then we will reevaluate their customer
0:29:06 because people actually do sometimes in honor,
0:29:08 believe it or not, get better, right?
0:29:09 So I had a knee replaced, a hip replaced,
0:29:12 they need us for a little while and then they get better.
0:29:15 But sometimes people, you know, progressively have more needs.
0:29:20 And so if honor can use our data to both kind of protect
0:29:23 care pros and treat them justly at the same time
0:29:26 that we help the family understand
0:29:28 like the real state of how mom is doing
0:29:31 and then provide better care for mom as a result,
0:29:32 everybody actually wins.
0:29:35 It might be hard in the moment, but everybody wins.
0:29:37 So Samantha, how did you feel like shifting
0:29:39 from the old model to the new model?
0:29:41 They make it very easy, you know,
0:29:43 for everyone to use, obviously,
0:29:45 my prior agencies, they didn’t have the app,
0:29:47 so you wouldn’t know what jobs you have there.
0:29:50 So basically you’re at home waiting for a call
0:29:53 to have a job with the prior agencies.
0:29:55 They would call you like a million times.
0:29:57 And sometimes you tell them, I’m not available.
0:29:59 And then they still call you and I’m like,
0:30:02 I just told you guys I’m not available today.
0:30:05 Aside from the communication was always, you know,
0:30:08 all over the place, there was no consistency of jobs.
0:30:11 Here it gives you like a sense like, oh, okay,
0:30:14 I don’t have a job today, but I’ll check the app.
0:30:15 And if they have other shifts,
0:30:17 then you have to make a little bit of a sacrifice
0:30:19 to take some shifts.
0:30:21 But at least you know you’re going to earn something
0:30:24 while you’re waiting for something that you’re looking for.
0:30:26 That’s one thing that caregivers like to know,
0:30:27 am I going to have a job tomorrow?
0:30:30 That’s very important, especially in the field
0:30:31 that you’re dealing with life.
0:30:33 Because you never know.
0:30:35 One of the design points when we were thinking about the app
0:30:39 that care pros use is we wanted to make sure it showed them
0:30:40 that there was always more work.
0:30:42 Because there’s this underlying stress.
0:30:43 It is.
0:30:45 Like sometimes I have clients that are,
0:30:46 you know are already in hospice.
0:30:49 So basically, you know what hospice, it’s pilotive care.
0:30:52 You already know that some point they’re going to go.
0:30:53 But you don’t look at it that way.
0:30:55 If you know that it’s okay,
0:30:58 I’m going to stay here until this happens.
0:30:59 Because this is my job right now
0:31:01 and my loyalty is towards my clients.
0:31:04 And being there for them in the hardest times of their life.
0:31:06 And being a support to the family.
0:31:07 And then after that,
0:31:09 you know that honors got your back.
0:31:11 They’re going to give you another patient.
0:31:13 Even if you love taking care of people,
0:31:16 like the job structure is so bad,
0:31:18 do you think that more people will want to go into
0:31:19 and stay in the field?
0:31:22 So I think there are two things that we measure
0:31:23 that kind of show that.
0:31:26 One is just how happy are care pros.
0:31:29 And so the net promoter score,
0:31:31 which is how likely are they to recommend something to your friend,
0:31:34 so our net promoter score is about twice
0:31:37 the net promoter score of Google employees.
0:31:40 The second thing that we really focus on
0:31:42 is what is the churn
0:31:44 or what’s the retention of care pros.
0:31:45 So this is crazy,
0:31:48 but in home care today,
0:31:52 on average, it’s 82% churn a year.
0:31:57 So that means only 18% of care pros on average
0:32:00 will stay for a year with an agency.
0:32:04 And at honor, two-thirds of our care pros
0:32:05 are what we call optimized.
0:32:07 They’re like in a market where we have enough work,
0:32:09 we’re dense enough, et cetera.
0:32:12 And their churn is 32%.
0:32:14 And what do you credit that difference to?
0:32:15 Like people will churn.
0:32:21 So you can literally decipher mile by mile in a given city.
0:32:23 Like if Samantha lives in one place
0:32:24 and a customer lives in another place,
0:32:28 what is that person’s likelihood of churning?
0:32:30 Mile by mile in a 30-day period.
0:32:33 So it’s the increasing satisfaction
0:32:35 then literally becomes density of the network.
0:32:36 One thing’s density,
0:32:38 but like another thing,
0:32:39 people have shadow schedules.
0:32:41 So if you schedule someone
0:32:44 for kind of a long-term assignment
0:32:45 in a shadow schedule,
0:32:46 which is when they don’t actually really want to work,
0:32:49 then they will not stick and they’ll churn
0:32:50 because it’s not good for them.
0:32:52 Another thing is like,
0:32:55 if someone is not, let’s say,
0:32:57 well-dementia trained in a home with someone with dementia,
0:32:59 other than a bad customer experience,
0:33:01 like the carepro does not like that
0:33:03 because they know they’re not doing a great job.
0:33:04 They don’t feel good.
0:33:06 They feel bad.
0:33:06 And so they churn.
0:33:10 So it’s all of this stuff kind of mixed together
0:33:13 that then drives this really low churn rate that we have.
0:33:16 And that I think is like super critical.
0:33:18 And to that end, like what do you do?
0:33:21 How do you approach training for care pros?
0:33:23 So there’s training when people start.
0:33:25 There’s annual or current training.
0:33:26 And then we’ve built training material
0:33:28 into the app on a website
0:33:30 and literally just even in the use of the app.
0:33:31 So it’s even little stuff.
0:33:34 Like one thing we found early on is,
0:33:36 oh my God, so many people are like checking in
0:33:37 when they’re not at the homes.
0:33:39 But you cannot say to everybody,
0:33:41 hey, like you’re fired, right?
0:33:45 It was clear the industry just structurally did this.
0:33:47 So it became a cultural norm.
0:33:49 We intentionally did this in a very specific way.
0:33:52 If you try to check in when you’re not yet at the home,
0:33:54 we don’t say you can’t check in.
0:33:58 We say, it looks like you’re not at the home.
0:34:00 Are you sure you want to check in?
0:34:01 And that’s training.
0:34:02 Yeah, yeah, I see that.
0:34:03 So you build it in.
0:34:05 Yeah, so that’s exactly what they actually build.
0:34:07 You build the culture into the app.
0:34:10 We work to treat the care pros as true professionals.
0:34:13 And what true professionals get is,
0:34:16 here’s what’s expected of you.
0:34:19 Here are tools to help you do that.
0:34:21 Here’s training to help you do that.
0:34:23 And we’ll put you in the right environment
0:34:26 where you are uniquely suited to succeed
0:34:28 and then tell you how you’re doing,
0:34:30 and then rewards or consequences.
0:34:32 And Samantha, what kind of training
0:34:34 do the other agencies provide?
0:34:37 So I actually used to train a lot of care professionals
0:34:39 for an agency that I used to work.
0:34:42 And basically, they hire you.
0:34:43 But the first two years,
0:34:44 you need to have experience already,
0:34:47 like working in another agency,
0:34:49 but not taking care of a family member.
0:34:51 Because sometimes they use that as experience.
0:34:52 Like, oh, I took care of my grandmother.
0:34:54 I took care of my son.
0:34:55 I took care of anybody that’s ill.
0:34:56 No.
0:34:58 And then we have a whole list of policies
0:35:00 that you need to follow,
0:35:02 what are the things that you can’t say, and all that.
0:35:05 So we run down different trainings.
0:35:09 Some agencies also provide different online trainings.
0:35:10 So like you watch a video,
0:35:12 and then at the end of the video,
0:35:15 they score you and then they give you a certificate for that.
0:35:17 So it’s not always physical training,
0:35:19 but you do every year.
0:35:20 You have to do at least,
0:35:23 I think there’s 10 prerequisite trainings
0:35:25 that you have to do every year
0:35:26 to continue your caregiving.
0:35:29 Just keep your license and all that, right?
0:35:30 And then so we train them
0:35:33 based on what they feel they’re locking.
0:35:35 Safety is very, very important
0:35:36 when you’re doing this type of job.
0:35:40 So yeah, we train them from safety precautions
0:35:43 and transferring and how to be polite
0:35:46 to even just proper hand washing.
0:35:49 Thank you so much for being here, Seth and Samantha.
0:35:51 Thank you so much for sharing and for creating the platform
0:35:54 to help healthcare providers get work,
0:35:57 but also help families get the type of quality care
0:35:58 that they need.
0:35:59 And thank you, Samantha,
0:36:02 for doing the most noble work that there is.
0:36:07 You know, we’re all owe a debt to you and your colleagues.
0:36:09 Thank you very much, and thank you for having me.
0:36:09 Thank you.
0:36:10 Awesome. Thanks, Samantha.
0:36:11 Thanks, y’all.
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