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0:00:21 A16Z.com/disclosures. Hi, and welcome to the A16Z podcast. I’m Lauren Murrow, and today
0:00:26 we’re talking about when fintech meets social. It’s a trend that’s evident on both ends
0:00:30 of the spectrum, whether that’s people divulging their crushing levels of debt on Instagram
0:00:35 and Twitter or bragging about their credit scores and stock trades. In this hallway-style
0:00:39 conversation with fintech general partner Anish Acharya and Darcy Kulikin, a partner on the
0:00:46 consumer tech team, we discuss why this holy grail of social plus fintech is both so challenging
0:00:50 and potentially so rewarding. We’ll cover which products and companies are taking advantage
0:00:55 of it, how it’s being driven by various subcultures online, and why this shift is happening now,
0:00:59 which is where this conversation begins. The first voice you’ll hear is Anish, followed
0:01:02 by Darcy. So the fact that people are actually talking
0:01:07 publicly about their debt is a new behavior. In the past, spending was public, but debt
0:01:12 was private. And for the first time, debt is starting to become a public conversation.
0:01:17 What’s new is that this generation is living in a completely different socioeconomic context.
0:01:21 That’s not flighty millennials and zoomers or whatever. That’s a completely different
0:01:25 financial world that they’re growing up in, and that’s driving a different set of conversations.
0:01:29 You see certain categories that people are now talking about that they didn’t talk about
0:01:33 before. Salary is something that a certain generation is much more comfortable talking
0:01:38 about. Student debt is a category that people are much more comfortable talking about. Trading
0:01:42 is a category that people are much more comfortable talking about. Across the spectrum, you see
0:01:48 sharing on social of financial stuff going up. You see it on Twitter, you see it on Facebook,
0:01:51 you see it in blogs. There’s a bunch of pockets.
0:01:57 Why do you think this shift is happening? I think it’s driven by a few factors. One
0:02:02 is generational. Every generation’s relationship with sharing and every generation’s relationship
0:02:06 with money is different. So what boomers did versus what Gen X did versus what millennials
0:02:11 do versus what Gen Z does is different. And I think you see this macro trend around increasing
0:02:15 sharing. And that’s driven by historical changes. That’s driven by the financial crisis.
0:02:20 Exactly. They have to take nontraditional paths to achieve financial progress and dreams.
0:02:25 For a long, long time, buying a home was not only the American dream, but something you
0:02:29 achieved through the traditional financial system. So everyone had a mortgage. Today
0:02:33 mortgages are less accessible than they’ve ever been. Will you talk to your peer set
0:02:37 about how am I ever going to buy a home? And that’s really the catalyst behind many of
0:02:39 these things. And I think you see that also with the massive
0:02:44 increase in student debt over the last 10, 15 years. It’s reaching unsustainable levels
0:02:48 and that’s forcing a conversation. And then that breaks down the stigma about talking
0:02:51 about student debt. And then once you break the stigma, then it’s like, hold on and everything
0:02:55 comes flooding to the forefront. We’ve talked about how money is inherently
0:03:01 private. Do you not think that that is becoming less so? There’s a generational piece of it.
0:03:05 Then yes, we’re sharing more of our lives in general. And then there’s a political angle
0:03:09 to it, this idea of radical transparency to affect change. So that’s why we’re posting
0:03:13 more about student debt, about medical debt, about our salaries.
0:03:19 Usually there is a long-term trend line towards sharing more rather than sharing less. But
0:03:24 you see it happening at the category level and to a certain extent at the subculture
0:03:28 level. So take student debt as one category. When people start talking about it, then everybody
0:03:34 feels empowered to talk about it. And I think you need catalysts for walls to come down around
0:03:38 certain categories like the student debt crisis, a financial crisis. There’s a lot of external
0:03:42 events that have led to some of these things come down, but it’s happening inch by inch
0:03:46 and category by category. And the question is, what pieces are going mainstream?
0:03:52 I think the hacker mindset has pushed outside of software and into finance. There is always
0:03:57 a small number of people who are excited about hacking their money, but now that’s becoming
0:04:02 a more mainstream concept. So the idea of being someone who arbitrages rewards across
0:04:07 credit cards used to be a pretty niche edge thing. And now more and more people are doing
0:04:10 it to the point where a lot of card companies are having to pull rewards back because there’s
0:04:14 a points guy and a million other sites that tells you how to actually hack the system.
0:04:19 And credit scores are very similar. It’s not a destiny. It’s a game, or it’s at least closer
0:04:23 to a game than a destiny. And more people are talking about the ways that you play it.
0:04:28 When I say it’s a game, I say that in a hopeful way, but not in a dismissive way in terms of
0:04:29 the importance of it.
0:04:32 It also goes to what are the things people like to do on social? And three of the core
0:04:37 functions are bragging, complaining, and rubbernecking. And I just think you’ve seen where social and
0:04:42 finance intersect, kind of coalescing around those three use cases as well.
0:04:45 At the end of the day, social and finance, a lot of it is just content, and it’s content
0:04:49 that’s anchored around some financial transaction, but it’s still just content. And so the usual
0:04:53 rules of social apply. Another way to think about it is, when you’re building something
0:04:58 in social plus finance, you have an interaction layer, and you have a transaction layer. And
0:05:02 the interaction layer is built around the emotional and cognitive pieces. And that is
0:05:06 content creation, that is messaging, that is all these social things that we see pop
0:05:11 up that appeal to these cognitive and emotional levers. And then you have a transactional
0:05:15 layer, which is whatever your actual financial transaction is. And that’s generally much
0:05:21 more of a functional use case. The magic in social plus finance happens when the transactional
0:05:25 piece and the interactive piece are mutually reinforcing, and that’s where the flywheel
0:05:29 on social plus finance really starts to spin aggressively.
0:05:33 Can you give me some examples of particular products in which you’ve seen this magic happen?
0:05:38 The easiest example is probably Venmo back in the day, where you had messaging apps,
0:05:42 money transfer apps like PayPal existed, and Chat existed, but the idea that you could
0:05:46 attach your transaction to an emoji just made the transaction easier, it made the emoji
0:05:51 more fun, it made the whole thing more self-reinforcing. It’s a really challenging problem to be able
0:05:53 to do that, but when you do do it, it’s magic.
0:05:58 I actually think that those products are fascinating. I still like to scroll through the global
0:06:03 feed on Venmo, which now is capped at the last 50 transactions, but it’s just so fascinating
0:06:07 to see all of these people all over the country sending each other money. There’s something
0:06:13 that is just vicariously thrilling about it, and because money does touch all of us, and
0:06:17 it’s so private, and the products that can start to invert that, I think they just touch
0:06:21 a nerve in an interesting way. And by the way, it doesn’t have to only be online. So there’s
0:06:27 a couple of interesting offline examples, SoFi, which is really in the business of refinancing
0:06:34 mispriced student debt, built this whole community of Henry’s, high earning, not rich yet, did
0:06:40 a ton of parties and events, and made it feel special to be a SoFi member, and really they
0:06:45 were a lender. So I think they’ve actually, at least in the early days, had a lot of success
0:06:51 combining the two. I imagine it’s less successful as Capital One is now opening coffee shops
0:06:56 where you can hang out and get coffee and do your banking, I guess, and it’s easy to
0:07:00 dismiss that as clumsy, but I do think that they’re trying to touch the same nerve.
0:07:06 There’s also this long legacy of companies starting out at the nexus of social and fintech,
0:07:10 and then eventually moving one way or the other generally towards the fintech transactional
0:07:14 layer. So a lot of people who can build either features or community in the early days and
0:07:19 really use it as a way to bootstrap their product, but then over time it migrates more
0:07:23 towards a transactional fintech product rather than a truly social product as well.
0:07:24 What are some of those examples?
0:07:28 SoFi is a great example. It’s functionally a lender, which is not a multiplayer social
0:07:31 game, but they were able to build this early community, which is able to get them a lot
0:07:35 of traction. You look at Wealthfront. Before it transitioned into Wealthfront, I think it
0:07:40 started as Ka-ching, which was a social fintech product. If you look Robinhood originally,
0:07:45 it was a much more social product, then became a much more transactional product. Prosper
0:07:48 started as a much more social product, and then became more of a peer-to-peer lending
0:07:53 platform. A lot of these things start social and are able to bootstrap in their early days
0:07:57 off of some of those networks. Then you end up at a decision point where you try to thread
0:08:01 this needle and continue down the social plus finance angle, or do you move into a more
0:08:05 single-player fintech product? I think a lot of the more successful fintech companies have
0:08:07 started social, but then eventually transitioned.
0:08:09 Why are they making that transition?
0:08:10 It’s hard.
0:08:14 Well, let’s talk about it. What is so hard about social fintech?
0:08:19 The most direct manifestation of social plus fintech is we have messaging, plus we have
0:08:24 payments or some other shared accounts, shared ledgers, some other joint accounts, et cetera.
0:08:29 I think that is very difficult for a number of reasons because money is so private. People
0:08:35 are less likely to send invites to each other and bootstrap a social product in the way
0:08:39 that you would bootstrap other social products.
0:08:43 I think there’s a lot of other examples, though, where the experience may not directly represent
0:08:48 social plus money, but it very much plays to that. I think the example Darcy brought up
0:08:52 is great, which is Robinhood. There’s been a ton of talk about how Robinhood is doomed
0:08:57 because others have cut fees and adopted their business model, but in truth, Robinhood is
0:09:02 a game, and it’s a game that people like to talk about. It works because it feels like
0:09:06 adulting when you actually have a stock portfolio, not because active trading is something that’s
0:09:12 smart for almost anyone to do. I really see it as addressing a different consumer need
0:09:17 than Schwab is addressing, and it’s really not threatened as much by players like Schwab.
0:09:23 That’s an example where the fintech product is addressing a social consumer need, but
0:09:27 at first blush, it may not appear to be the combination of social plus money.
0:09:32 Some of these products are really tapping into the trend for its gamification. Do you
0:09:36 think more products will go that route and design around that impulse that we have?
0:09:41 I think the thing you will likely see is that these social plus fintech products will actually
0:09:45 come much more from the consumer side of things. I think there’s some things like Robinhood
0:09:50 where you are able to build both fintech and community, and it comes from the fintech side
0:09:53 of things. Another encouraging angle to it is the things that are coming from the social
0:09:57 side. Whether it’s a bunch of the chat apps that now have wallets and payments installed
0:10:00 in them, or even something as weird as Fortnite, which is technically a game, but they have
0:10:05 V-Bucks, and they have these economies built into them. It’ll be fascinating to see what
0:10:09 happens with those types of products, because that could be the actual place where we see
0:10:10 social plus money take off.
0:10:14 I do think, by the way, there’s been a bunch of past attempts, which maybe seem naive at
0:10:19 the time, but now just seemed like bad timing. Blippi is a famous example of this where it
0:10:23 tweeted everything that you bought, linked your credit card, and every time you swiped
0:10:29 it, it tweeted. Okay, there’s obvious reasons why that might not be a good idea, and yet
0:10:30 I think the fact that…
0:10:31 It’s too soon.
0:10:34 Hey, look, the fact that Dave Ramsey exists, and people are talking about debt and spending,
0:10:39 and there’s the nugget of truth in all these things. As Mark says, it’s rarely that the
0:10:42 idea is wrong. It’s usually that the timing is.
0:10:46 One of the interesting things about this category of company is that if you just take a step
0:10:50 back and you’re looking for a broader consumer trends, you can often look at little emergent
0:10:53 behaviors that are happening somewhere on the internet and try to figure out, is that
0:10:56 going to actually go into the mainstream at some point?
0:11:00 One of the interesting and challenging things about social plus fintech is that so much
0:11:04 of it is driven by norms, so much of it is driven around what’s taboo and what’s stigmatized,
0:11:09 and that actually exists at the subculture level. You can grow up in the same town at
0:11:13 the same age, and if you grow up on one side of town, your norms around money and sharing
0:11:16 are very different from the person on the other side of town.
0:11:20 That leads to a lot of very distinct subcultures within different pockets on the internet.
0:11:24 One of the more entertaining one is All Street Bets on Reddit, where people are posting some
0:11:29 mix of fake and real trades and explosions and everything like that, and so then you
0:11:32 can look at these things and say, “Oh, here’s this crazy emergent behavior that’s happening.
0:11:36 I think this is going to go mainstream.” In some cases, it will, or in some cases, it
0:11:40 is just part of that subculture because the norms and taboos will never translate into
0:11:46 the mainstream, but when those stigmas fall, then everything happens and everybody runs
0:11:48 for the entrance at that point.
0:11:52 Yeah, it is interesting. If you think about crypto, so this crypto as a computing platform,
0:11:57 which is how we talk about it a lot internally, but then there’s also the sort of socio-political,
0:12:02 perhaps anarchist thread of crypto. I think the historical example of that was mostly
0:12:03 gold, though at the end is taboo.
0:12:07 Nobody was screencapping their Boolean collection and sharing it on Twitter.
0:12:13 Well, depending on what Facebook group you’re in. I think, again, there is a past precedent,
0:12:17 but you’re right. There’s a functional aspect of hedging against things that may go badly
0:12:22 wrong in the future, and then there’s a cognitive, emotional, socio-political to your point, Lauren.
0:12:25 Crypto is fascinating because it’s a subculture that has a totally different relationship with
0:12:30 transparency and anonymity and all of these different dimensions and just changing the
0:12:36 form factor of value from a dollar to some sort of token has freed an entire segment
0:12:39 of people to talk about it and have a different relationship with it. It’s one of the most
0:12:45 entertaining parts of social is what’s happening in crypto. Again, the concept of crypto versus
0:12:49 concept of money created a psychological shift in some people that then made the norms around
0:12:50 it much different.
0:12:54 So, you’re saying there are these subgroups, little niche categories, but it’s difficult
0:12:57 to build a business around them until they reach that tipping point?
0:13:01 I actually think you can build great businesses around some of these subcultures. There’s
0:13:04 a lot of these quote-unquote niche, but they can be massive niches, right? Like Wall Street
0:13:06 Bets has like 800,000 members.
0:13:10 People always want to talk about how they’re making money. It’s having debt that’s always
0:13:15 been private. So, the hardest problem in terms of social and money is having people talk
0:13:20 about their debt, which is why people don’t want to have a relationship with their lender
0:13:23 or talk in too much detail about certainly their credit card debt because they feel bad
0:13:28 about it. They feel like it reflects poorly on them. Now, it’s just checking Insta right
0:13:35 now and there’s 675,000 posts for #debtfreejourney. This has become a public conversation and a
0:13:39 lot of it is happening on Instagram and I think that’s the hardest problem, the hardest
0:13:43 segment to actually unlock. So, I actually think we’re pretty far ahead right now.
0:13:47 Well, and to your point, Wall Street Bets is not just about, “I made a bunch of money.
0:13:50 It’s also people posting, “Shit, I just lost a bunch of money.”
0:13:54 Though, the subtext is, “Look at all the swagger I’ve got. I can lose all this money and it’s
0:13:55 all good.”
0:13:56 Yeah.
0:13:57 Not always.
0:14:03 Fair. Where this gets a lot more interesting is looking beyond social media and social
0:14:08 networks and starting to talk about how this stuff drives an emergence that are products
0:14:12 and how products are designed. Lauren and I both talked about this, which is the concept
0:14:17 that as a product, you can create value in a functional way, which is, “Hey, my credit
0:14:23 score was X and now it’s X plus Y.” You can create value in a cognitive way, which is,
0:14:27 “Hey, I now better understand my credit score,” or you can create value in an emotional way,
0:14:32 which is, “I feel better about my credit score and my financial situation.” Historically,
0:14:36 most products have been designed with a complete focus on the functional and now we’re seeing
0:14:40 the next generation of not just fintech but consumer products think more about cognitive
0:14:41 and emotional.
0:14:46 There’s also more offline examples than we’re all typically aware of. So, one I learned
0:14:52 about over the last few years is called RASCAS, which is Rotating Savings and Credit Associations,
0:14:56 which are these offline communities that are managed in mostly immigrant communities managed
0:15:01 by an individual where everyone contributes, let’s say, $1,000 a month. And then each month,
0:15:06 if there are 10 members, one member receives $10,000. And typically, these are folks in
0:15:11 your community. You might meet them at church and it’s really hard to save $10,000. It’s
0:15:15 a lot easier to contribute $1,000 a month. And then when you receive the lump sum, there’s
0:15:20 always some big thing you want to do with the $10,000. There’s tons of examples of these
0:15:25 micro communities has not yet successfully been brought online. So, not everything is
0:15:29 sort of starting from zero when it comes to digital products.
0:15:33 And those ones are interesting because there’s a different iteration of those in every single
0:15:37 culture and every single country. And it is this robust offline behavior. And the question
0:15:42 is how do you bring it online and how do you bring it online in a way that is culturally
0:15:47 specific enough that it reflects the norms of that culture but also in a way that’s scalable?
0:15:52 So there’s the example of Rosca’s in a lot of communities all over the world. And then
0:15:57 I think if you look at the flip of that, what’s the extreme San Francisco version, it’s a
0:16:01 lot of people here do things like invest in restaurants. Why would you ever invest in
0:16:05 a restaurant? You’re probably not going to get your money back. There’s no liquidity.
0:16:09 At best, it’s sort of like cool to tell your friends maybe that you’re an investor there.
0:16:12 Maybe you skip a sort of reservation. It goes to emotional versus transactional.
0:16:13 Totally.
0:16:15 It’s not a transactional piece. It’s the emotion of the finance.
0:16:21 Exactly. But the proof point of actually investing in something versus just frequenting something
0:16:26 is very different. People want to participate. They want to express these preferences and
0:16:27 money is the strongest way to do so.
0:16:31 Well, and another example of something that’s inherently social. You’re investing in something
0:16:34 that then has a built-in social network in the investment.
0:16:38 There’s also this amazing trend around fractional ownership. So there’s a category of companies
0:16:44 that includes Rally Road and Otis and Mythic. They will take some asset, be it a classic
0:16:51 car, be it some culturally significant item, be it a magic card, be it a case of wine.
0:16:53 There’s a different version of all of this. And they will take that asset and they’ll
0:16:59 functionally securitize it. And then you, as a user, can purchase shares of that asset.
0:17:03 And then in some cases, depending on the kind of investment that you make, you get certain
0:17:07 levels of access or swag or other things that are associated with ownership.
0:17:13 So on the one hand, you actually have a piece of equity, a share in something that is theoretically
0:17:17 valuable because it’s actually a hard asset that has value. On the other side, you have
0:17:23 the status of owner within this piece that is of value in a more emotional sense, which
0:17:28 you’re investing in cultural pieces, which may or may not be a good financial investment
0:17:32 but from emotional cognitive side can be really, really rewarding. So I think that’s another
0:17:35 version where this idea of social plus fintech is taking off.
0:17:38 I love this example. You know, we’ve talked about this internally as perhaps a future
0:17:43 of museums and I think that vision is really interesting and it’s a much more emotional
0:17:44 than rational.
0:17:48 What’s the potential there? Are there areas where you see opportunity in some of these
0:17:50 niche groups?
0:17:54 I think social and finance is like the Holy Grail, right? The social version of most products
0:17:59 is the best version of most products. Engagement is higher, retention is higher, customer acquisition
0:18:03 costs go down. All these things that most consumer fintech companies struggle with are
0:18:07 solved by building the social product. It’s the extent that you can get something that
0:18:12 threads that needle between social and fintech. It’s amazing. It’s magical. It’s this incredible
0:18:16 thing that happens when it actually happens. It’s really hard to do, but when it does happen,
0:18:17 it’s phenomenal.
0:18:21 I think the biggest opportunity comes from finding the emergent behavior within niche
0:18:27 groups at the social level, at the community level, and then figuring out how fintech or
0:18:32 transactional layers into or on top of that. The saying is every company is eventually going
0:18:36 to become a fintech company, and I think that is probably the direction in which it goes
0:18:41 and which you have weird social behavior that has some ability to layer transaction inside
0:18:44 of it, and then that’s how social plus money takes off.
0:18:49 In my mind, the most direct way to start seeing this play out is just having more fintech products
0:18:54 address emotional needs as well as functional and cognitive needs. There’s some fintech products
0:19:00 like Joy, an app where you rate every transaction on how it made you feel. The goal of the game,
0:19:03 of course, is to only spend money on things that make you feel good, which is interesting.
0:19:07 I think that’s a product that’s completely designed around a set of emotional needs with
0:19:12 perhaps a set of functional outcomes as a happy side effect. I think there’s probably
0:19:15 a middle ground where a lot of products that are focused on helping you buy your first
0:19:21 home or reduce your debt or invest in stocks can actually start to design for these emotional
0:19:25 needs when it comes to money. That’s how we actually start to see this achieve scale.
0:19:29 Are there companies right now that you see making strides in that direction?
0:19:33 I think an example of a company that’s really gotten this right is Credit Karma, and granted
0:19:38 I was at Credit Karma. But if you look at the tone of the emails, if you look at the
0:19:44 ads that are on TV, if you look at the way the product is positioned, it plays as much
0:19:50 to curiosity and taking some of the heaviness out of credit. I think that’s been a really
0:19:55 successful strategy for them. I think this is a company that’s gotten it right when it
0:19:59 comes to how you talk to your customer about these otherwise really heavy things.
0:20:03 As people share more, it becomes less intimidating.
0:20:07 Or if you can see yourself relative to other people, that’s the other way that Credit Karma
0:20:11 works. It’s like, I know where I stand relative to other people, and maybe it makes me stressed
0:20:14 or maybe it makes me feel more comfortable, but at least there’s some level of transparency.
0:20:19 Right. There’s some freedom in that transparency that perhaps is driving customer acquisition.
0:20:24 That’s right. In terms of the products that have not worked, I think the product category
0:20:29 that hasn’t really seen success is personal financial management tools. There’s two reasons.
0:20:34 The first is that there’s a very small number of people who are super excited about budgeting
0:20:38 and trying every budgeting app, which is why when a lot of these products launch, they
0:20:42 get great growth in their first 18 to 24 months. You can get a couple of million users who
0:20:47 are really engaged. That’s not actually representative of the wider market where most people hate
0:20:51 budgeting. It’s not just because it’s a pain to keep a budget. It’s because it’s mostly
0:20:57 bad news. I look at a lot of these PFM and budgeting apps like calorie counting apps.
0:21:01 Just mostly makes you feel bad, and it’s easier to uninstall the app than it is to actually
0:21:05 stick with the budget or the diet. I think that’s a great example of a product category
0:21:10 that despite the fact that there’s real functional value there, it hasn’t taken off because it
0:21:14 didn’t address the emotional challenge that the consumer is facing.
0:21:19 I think another category that has not worked super well is ones that are designed to be
0:21:24 social but only transactional. I think there’s been this long history of people trying to
0:21:29 get people to be more public about what their portfolio is, and then other people can invest
0:21:35 based off of that portfolio, and it benefits the portfolio manager who’s sharing it. That’s
0:21:41 one where it is almost purely transactional relationship with purely financial incentives.
0:21:44 I think there’s been a lot of attempts at that. As far as I’m aware, none of them have
0:21:48 really taken off, but I think that’s another category where when you just stick within one
0:21:53 kind of bucket just within the transactional side, it’s really hard to layer social into
0:21:54 that.
0:21:58 So if we agree that social meets Vintec is really hard to do, but I’ve also heard you
0:22:03 both say it is the holy grail. Why is that? What makes it so powerful if we can get there?
0:22:07 I think first of all, if you just look at it, the most narrow lens is just from a core
0:22:13 business perspective. Stickiness, cross-out, acquisition, all of these things that are
0:22:18 super hard problems for most Vintec companies become dramatically easier if there’s a strong
0:22:24 social layer. So that’s the most narrow lens. And then I think the broadest lens is just
0:22:30 ending this dynamic where we’re alone together. Everyone’s in a dark room feeling bad about
0:22:34 their money with everyone else in that same dark room, and I think if you can turn the
0:22:40 light on, then all of a sudden, it is an opportunity to uplift everyone a little bit and normalize
0:22:44 the situation that folks are in. I think that with, especially we talked about both the
0:22:50 good side of Insta, but Insta is also a very public place to talk about your spending,
0:22:55 and I think that that drives a perverse set of expectations around what’s normal, and
0:22:56 we should try to change that.
0:23:00 Yes. There’s multiple levels to why social plus money is this holy grail. Another lens
0:23:07 is it broadens the solution space within which, as a founder, you can operate because now you’re
0:23:12 not just on the transactional level or you’re not just on the emotional and cognitive level,
0:23:17 you’re now across all three. If you actually have financial or social plus Vintec or whatever
0:23:23 it is, so you can now design things that have some combination of those three levers, which,
0:23:26 if you’re competing against a purely transactional thing or you’re competing against a purely
0:23:31 emotional thing, you now just have more factors that you can operate across. The flip side
0:23:37 to that is it’s combinatorially more complicated to do, but if you do do it, you’re in a class
0:23:38 of your own.
0:23:40 Thank you for joining us on the A16Z podcast.
0:23:41 Thanks, Lauren.
0:23:42 Thanks, Darcy.
0:23:43 Thanks, Anish.
0:23:43 Cheers.
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