‘Cultural Heroin’ and the Road to the Election

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0:00:53 a Ben and Jerry’s podcast about joy and justice
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0:00:58 Ainez Bordeaux is a self-described hell-raiser
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0:01:29 – Episode 308, 308 is the year
0:01:32 I got belonging to Western Nebraska in 1908.
0:01:34 The first time square ball drop occurred
0:01:36 at Midnight Tree Story from New Years.
0:01:38 I bought myself one of those health trackers.
0:01:40 And while I haven’t run yet this year,
0:01:42 I’ve masturbated for over 500 miles.
0:01:45 – Go, go, go!
0:01:50 (upbeat music)
0:01:52 (upbeat music)
0:01:57 – Welcome to the 308th episode of The Prop G Pod.
0:01:59 Whenever I do one of these jokes,
0:02:01 I immediately click stop
0:02:03 and look at the reaction of our production team.
0:02:06 ‘Cause what I want is I want them to be offended
0:02:10 and horrified but sort of laughing under their breath.
0:02:11 That’s when I know I’ve hit it.
0:02:14 Other times they just turn on the cameras
0:02:16 and they look at me like they’re horrified
0:02:18 and I know I need to go back to the well.
0:02:20 Anyways, in today’s episode,
0:02:22 we’re mixing it up a little bit to start off the news.
0:02:25 We’re bringing in our political Yoda, our sensei.
0:02:28 Our sensei, our master of disaster,
0:02:30 which is the political realm right now.
0:02:33 In my opinion, the most interesting rising star
0:02:36 in the world of political commentary, Jessica Tarlov.
0:02:39 She’ll be reporting from the Republican National Convention
0:02:40 in Milwaukee.
0:02:43 We’ll hear her rapid fire take on the vibe of the convention,
0:02:45 the aftermath of the attempted assassination on Trump.
0:02:49 Other way, I was actually behind Melania at an airport
0:02:51 right after it happened and I heard her screaming
0:02:56 into a phone, you had one job, too soon?
0:02:57 Too soon?
0:03:00 Actually, supposedly it was a hit commissioned
0:03:04 by the Democratic Party but they ordered it from Timu
0:03:06 and it didn’t quite work out.
0:03:09 Anyways, discount hits, not a good idea.
0:03:10 So we’ll also be talking to Jessica
0:03:11 about what we need to be thinking about
0:03:12 leading up to the election.
0:03:15 Afterwards, we’ll hear from Reid Hoffman
0:03:17 about Biden’s decision to stay in the race,
0:03:19 the state of AI and woke-ism and its place
0:03:20 in American universities.
0:03:23 I absolutely love Reid Hoffman.
0:03:26 I think he is the conscience and the voice
0:03:30 of the tech community and the tech leader we need,
0:03:31 if you will.
0:03:33 I’m just so impressed with Reid.
0:03:35 But first, I know what you’re thinking.
0:03:36 Where’s the dog?
0:03:37 Where’s the dog?
0:03:39 He was in Munich, he was in München at a beer garden
0:03:43 watching England beat, who did we beat then?
0:03:45 Netherlands, right?
0:03:49 And then got so excited that I took my son to Berlin
0:03:53 where we watched the finals of the Euros
0:03:55 and we saw Spain go on to victory.
0:03:58 An amazing game, good for Spain.
0:04:01 I think they played the better match and deserved to win
0:04:04 but we had just an unbelievable time following team England.
0:04:07 The British people are just such a half empty group
0:04:10 of people, they’re furious at what’s his face?
0:04:13 Southgate, the manager, because they didn’t win
0:04:14 and all they could talk about.
0:04:16 I heard over and over on the way back
0:04:17 is we can never win a trophy or tournament.
0:04:20 For God’s sakes, they’ve gone to the final twice.
0:04:23 And I mean, they just have such incredible talent.
0:04:26 And I absolutely loved watching England play
0:04:28 and I’m very grateful and not that any of them listened
0:04:32 to my podcast, but my God, Cole Palmer.
0:04:34 Jesus Christ was that exciting.
0:04:37 They put the guy in a little bit too much of football here.
0:04:40 They put the guy in and I think the 70 or 74th minute
0:04:43 and within two minutes he scored a goal.
0:04:48 So back from Berlin in New York, it’s about 140 degrees here
0:04:50 but it’s always great to be back in the city.
0:04:52 This is the start of my American summer.
0:04:54 I’m back in the US of A.
0:04:57 I go to Colorado next Saturday I think
0:05:02 and then I go to off the coast of Massachusetts to Nantucket.
0:05:05 Literally the widest place on earth, literally.
0:05:06 I didn’t want to like it.
0:05:08 I think of myself as being more kind of Euro trash
0:05:11 and I went there 10 years ago
0:05:14 and I’ve been every summer since it is beautiful.
0:05:16 It’s essentially a sandbar in the Atlantic.
0:05:17 You can let the kids go crazy.
0:05:19 They can’t get into too much trouble
0:05:22 because it’s an island, good food, just absolutely love it.
0:05:25 Anyways, enough of my privilege.
0:05:26 I want to end this on a little bit
0:05:28 of a deeper, more thoughtful note.
0:05:31 I did one of my favorite things in Berlin.
0:05:33 I did something called Fat Tire Bike Tours.
0:05:35 I’ve done this every time I’ve been in Berlin
0:05:37 and they take you around to all these sites.
0:05:40 And it’s obviously very focused on World War II
0:05:41 and the wall coming down.
0:05:43 And I just find that shit fascinating.
0:05:45 And what was so exciting for me
0:05:48 was my 13-year-old son came with me
0:05:50 and they take you to Hitler’s Bunker,
0:05:51 which is now a nondescript parking lot
0:05:53 ’cause they don’t want to draw too much attention to it
0:05:56 or turn it into any sort of shrine
0:05:59 for when far-right fucking crazies start showing up
0:06:01 and planting flowers or some shit like that.
0:06:02 And they take you to a guard tower
0:06:04 and the guard towers that were erected
0:06:06 to basically shoot anybody that was trying
0:06:08 to escape to the West,
0:06:11 given that there was an incredible brain drain.
0:06:13 And it was actually, the wall was actually
0:06:16 for a short time, a good idea for East Germany
0:06:18 distinct to the human rights violations
0:06:21 because they were losing all of their human capital to,
0:06:23 to the West, but this was just,
0:06:25 it was just such a fascinating weird construct
0:06:27 and quite frankly a flawed construct.
0:06:30 But for example, when they had guards in the towers,
0:06:32 they would switch them up and put them in different towers
0:06:34 ’cause they were finding if they spent too much time together,
0:06:37 they too would make plans to escape.
0:06:40 And so they made sure that they didn’t get to know each other.
0:06:42 But more than that, the thing that really struck me
0:06:45 on these tours is that if you look at Germany
0:06:48 and Prussia for the last few centuries,
0:06:50 it’s been historically one of the most tolerant,
0:06:51 progressive places in the world
0:06:53 and appreciation for art, music,
0:06:57 very accepting and tolerant of different religions
0:06:59 and people from different backgrounds,
0:07:02 thriving gay community, political discourse,
0:07:04 celebration of world-class academics
0:07:08 and appreciation for debate, democracy.
0:07:10 And then it had this 12-year period
0:07:12 where things really went sideways is the wrong word,
0:07:14 really went dark.
0:07:17 And for me, it’s a lesson that absolutely, in my view,
0:07:20 that to believe that that can’t happen here
0:07:22 is to ignore history.
0:07:25 And I find that Americans are optimism
0:07:28 is our greatest feature, but also our greatest flaw.
0:07:29 And that is one of the impression
0:07:32 that somehow our institutions would buttress us
0:07:35 against some sort of demonization of immigrants,
0:07:38 which I think is already sort of on a low burn right now,
0:07:41 or that we would try and find scapegoats.
0:07:42 And that’s the bad news.
0:07:43 The good news is, if you look at Germany,
0:07:47 it has, again, returned to the mean
0:07:50 of where it has been through most of society.
0:07:53 And that is an incredibly progressive, tolerant,
0:07:56 interesting liberal democratic society.
0:07:59 And it’s the economic engine of Europe.
0:08:02 I love the whole “work hard, play hard” ethic in Germany.
0:08:04 One of the things, examples that I just love about Germany
0:08:07 is, I think in the U.S., we kind of bifurcate
0:08:08 things for kids and things for adults.
0:08:10 Disneyland is definitely for kids.
0:08:13 It is the seventh circle of hell for adults.
0:08:16 And then there’s places that are just adults only.
0:08:18 And I think Germany does a great job of threading the needle.
0:08:20 My favorite thing is the beer gardens there.
0:08:22 There’ll be a beer garden and they’ll literally be trampolines.
0:08:24 So use something for everybody.
0:08:27 There’s the kids and mom and dad go grab a beer.
0:08:30 I think Germany is a fantastic or wonderful culture.
0:08:33 And every time I go there, I just have such a nice time.
0:08:36 Anyways, Germany, an incredibly progressive
0:08:38 and impressive society.
0:08:40 But for 12 years, digress from that norm.
0:08:42 And it happened fast.
0:08:43 And it happened aggressively.
0:08:45 And obviously, it happened violently.
0:08:47 And there are a lot of lessons to be taken from that.
0:08:51 And again, to believe that unless we remain steadfast
0:08:55 and recognize that that can happen here, it will happen here.
0:08:58 There’s no reason if it can happen in Germany
0:09:01 based on their historical reference in the bookends
0:09:04 of that society, then it can absolutely happen here.
0:09:05 All right, let’s get Jessica on.
0:09:09 – Breaking news, former president Donald Trump is safe
0:09:11 and a 20-year-old shooter is dead
0:09:14 after a shocking assassination attempt
0:09:18 on the former president in Pennsylvania yesterday afternoon.
0:09:20 – This afternoon, former president Donald Trump
0:09:21 announced his pick for running mate,
0:09:24 choosing Ohio Senator JD Vance
0:09:26 to join him on the ticket.
0:09:28 – Two-thirds of Americans say President Biden
0:09:33 should step aside, and that includes 60% of Democrats.
0:09:36 – So we are joined now by Jessica Tarloff.
0:09:39 Jessica is a political analyst and a co-host on the five,
0:09:40 Fox’s weeknight news program
0:09:43 and a regular guest here on Prop G.
0:09:48 She is in Milwaukee at the Republican National Convention.
0:09:50 Jess, let’s kick off with,
0:09:54 just give us a general sense of the vibe there.
0:09:56 – Well, I first want to make clear to the listeners,
0:09:57 I’m in an open environment,
0:10:01 so if it’s a little noisy or the sound quality’s crappy,
0:10:03 I apologize, but I’m in the Fox workspace
0:10:06 at the convention center in the midst of it all,
0:10:09 and it has been a crazy few days.
0:10:13 I arrived on Saturday, first day back from maternity leave,
0:10:15 and within half an hour of landing,
0:10:16 there was the assassination attempt
0:10:19 on former president Trump,
0:10:22 and we were wall-to-wall through the evening,
0:10:26 and then Sunday, getting into the swing of things,
0:10:30 first segment back, talking about almost immediately,
0:10:31 who’s to blame for this,
0:10:33 everyone trying to jockey for their position,
0:10:36 surrounded by people,
0:10:38 very enthusiastic Trump supporters, as you can imagine.
0:10:40 The great outfits are happening,
0:10:45 the bedazzled hats, the cowboy boots, make America,
0:10:47 everything again, t-shirts and paraphernalia,
0:10:51 and then yesterday, first day back on the five,
0:10:54 and it’s been intense, and a whirlwind,
0:10:57 it’s very exciting to be here,
0:11:01 but it’s a little scary, considering what happened,
0:11:05 and I think that there’s an air of that everywhere,
0:11:09 and everyone is feeling it, security is massive,
0:11:12 I mean, everybody is here from Secret Service
0:11:14 down to the local police,
0:11:17 and that’s really what’s hanging in the air,
0:11:20 I would say for everyone, is this teeny bit of fear,
0:11:22 and then this massive excitement,
0:11:25 very enthusiastic bunch, to say the least.
0:11:28 – So Jess, this is difficult, or it’s difficult for me,
0:11:30 but just trying to be as unemotional about this
0:11:33 as possible, my sense is that the Trump campaign,
0:11:36 in any race, has never had this much momentum right now,
0:11:37 what are your thoughts?
0:11:40 – It’s definitely a peak moment for them,
0:11:41 and they’ve been through a lot,
0:11:44 and it’s not just the sentiment behind them
0:11:45 because of what happened,
0:11:47 and obviously, everyone is relieved
0:11:49 that he was not actually killed,
0:11:52 and that the shooter wasn’t successful,
0:11:55 but he had the Mar-a-Lago case dropped against him,
0:11:57 Eileen Cannon, the judge in Florida,
0:11:59 did that yesterday morning,
0:12:00 right for the kickoff of the RNC,
0:12:02 and he’s walking on air.
0:12:05 It’s part of why he moved up the VP announcement,
0:12:08 have J.D. Vance, who’s been a big hit
0:12:10 around the convention here,
0:12:13 J.D. Vance was Democrats’ top choice,
0:12:15 in terms of who they wanted him to pick,
0:12:18 ’cause he doesn’t bring a tremendous amount to the table,
0:12:20 he doesn’t bring a state that Trump wasn’t gonna win,
0:12:23 he doesn’t bring a set of policies that Trump didn’t have,
0:12:25 he’s not more moderate than Trump.
0:12:27 I feared it would be a Glen Youngkin,
0:12:30 Marco Rubio, or a Nikki Haley,
0:12:33 but definitely going in their direction,
0:12:38 and Joe Biden, he had that good rally on Friday in Detroit,
0:12:42 the interview with Lester Holt on Monday night
0:12:46 was fine, but not enough to quiet everyone down,
0:12:49 and I think if it’s a toss-up race right now,
0:12:54 you’d have to at least go 51-49 in Trump’s favor.
0:12:56 So yeah, I would agree with you
0:12:57 that it’s with him right this moment.
0:12:59 – So a couple of things right there, J.D. Vance,
0:13:01 my sense is, it’s interesting that you said
0:13:03 that that was the Democrats’ pick they were hoping for,
0:13:07 my sense is that it’s actually a good pick for Trump.
0:13:10 One, he’s handsome, two, he’s young,
0:13:13 he’s a Marine veteran,
0:13:16 and he’ll be a very effective attack dog
0:13:20 for which is generally kind of one of the key roles
0:13:23 for the VP, what are your thoughts on the pick distinct
0:13:25 of what the Democrats wanted or didn’t want?
0:13:28 – Well, I think that that’s all true,
0:13:32 and right now what I’m focused on is the enthusiasm factor.
0:13:35 So the race is still statistically tied,
0:13:36 there were three major polls,
0:13:38 our poll, the Fox poll, NBC, CBS,
0:13:40 all within one to two points,
0:13:42 that’s margin of error, we’re in a dead heat,
0:13:44 the CBS battleground polls really interestingly,
0:13:46 we’re also within the margin of error,
0:13:49 and we had seen some with bigger distance
0:13:51 that Biden was behind, kind of three, four points,
0:13:54 versus being one to two points behind.
0:13:56 So if you’re looking at that,
0:13:58 and then you’re considering the VP pick,
0:14:01 yes, that story is completely compelling,
0:14:05 I was a hillbilly allergy liberal myself when that came out,
0:14:06 I thought it was incredible,
0:14:09 book better than the movie as it usually is,
0:14:13 but JD Vance is not someone that’s likable,
0:14:16 he’s not liked at home in Ohio,
0:14:18 he’s not liked in the Senate,
0:14:20 Mitt Romney, when he was being interviewed for something,
0:14:23 said that there was like no one more detestable,
0:14:25 I guess he forgot about Ted Cruz that day,
0:14:27 but JD Vance is not someone
0:14:31 that has warmed a lot of people up,
0:14:35 and I think it is a signal to the future of the party,
0:14:37 JD Vance at 39 years old,
0:14:41 and I guess he’ll be 40 if they win by the time he’s elected,
0:14:46 but it’s really a siren call that it’s MAGA now,
0:14:48 and it’s MAGA in the future,
0:14:51 and that’s the message that Donald Trump wants to send,
0:14:54 and that’s a message that I think helps the Democrats
0:14:56 that are managing to permeate the bubble
0:14:58 about Project 2025,
0:15:03 and what scariness lurks ahead for us
0:15:04 if Donald Trump wins again,
0:15:08 and JD Vance does nothing to kind of stop that,
0:15:11 so that’s why I think that it’s a good pick
0:15:14 if you are looking at it from the Democratic side.
0:15:16 – Based on what you’re kind of feeling at the convention,
0:15:20 do you have any sense of any policy shifts
0:15:22 or messaging that you think they’re gonna go with
0:15:25 based on just what the speakers are talking about?
0:15:26 I mean, these things are pretty,
0:15:27 these things are produced for TV,
0:15:29 so they’re pretty deliberate.
0:15:32 Any insight you can glean from their strategy?
0:15:34 – At least from the Monday night,
0:15:36 besides Trump showing up himself,
0:15:40 the big deal was Sean O’Brien,
0:15:42 the union, that union boss,
0:15:45 and that he’s gonna speak at both conventions,
0:15:47 and he came in there with a speech
0:15:49 that you would normally think you’d see at the DNC,
0:15:51 and he made it at the RNC,
0:15:53 and he got more applause for certain things
0:15:55 that I wouldn’t have expected,
0:15:58 and he was more generous towards Donald Trump
0:16:00 that I would have expected as well.
0:16:03 You know, they try to be quote, “non-political,”
0:16:06 but endorsements happen, and Joe Biden has made
0:16:08 being on the side of the union workers
0:16:11 a huge hallmark of his campaign, joining picket lines.
0:16:13 He got, I think it’s $90 billion
0:16:16 reimbursed into their pensions, for instance.
0:16:17 The fact that he showed up here
0:16:19 and that he spoke that passionately
0:16:21 and said Trump was a really tough dude,
0:16:23 which, yeah, I mean, he got shot at
0:16:25 and managed to get himself together
0:16:27 and then pump his fist, I get it,
0:16:28 but that’s what really stuck out to me.
0:16:31 That was the outlier, you know,
0:16:34 in a sea of faces that you would typically expect
0:16:36 at an RNC event.
0:16:39 – Has anyone been a disaster in terms of the speakers?
0:16:42 Like, the vibe in the room, did it ever go really flat?
0:16:45 Was anyone sort of underwhelming in terms of the lineup?
0:16:48 – Yeah, it was David Sacks, right?
0:16:51 That’s his name, the venture capital guy
0:16:53 who’s given a ton to J.D. Vance,
0:16:56 and he kept waiting for applause or laughter,
0:17:00 and none of it came because he just totally blew.
0:17:02 So that was a big disappointment for people.
0:17:05 But otherwise, everyone’s been pretty happy.
0:17:07 I mean, I’ve been here, you know, from the morning tonight
0:17:11 and people are just jazzed to be here.
0:17:13 They’re excited when they’re listening
0:17:15 to some rando dogcatcher from, you know,
0:17:17 the middle of nowhere.
0:17:19 So, you know, people are pumped,
0:17:21 they’re pumped about Donald Trump,
0:17:24 and I was reviewing all of the terrible things
0:17:27 that J.D. Vance has said about Trump from the past,
0:17:28 and one thing stuck out.
0:17:30 – Comparing him to Hitler?
0:17:31 – Well, no, that did stick out,
0:17:33 and I made sure to mention that on TV.
0:17:36 No, he called him cultural heroine.
0:17:41 And I think that that’s really apt and accurate
0:17:43 and not surprising coming from, you know,
0:17:46 a very smart guy who wrote a fantastic book
0:17:47 and got into himself in T.L. Law School,
0:17:49 which is no easy feat.
0:17:51 And that, I can feel that.
0:17:54 And I’m obviously not going so far as to say, you know,
0:17:55 people need to be deprogrammed.
0:17:57 I know Democrats always get into trouble
0:18:00 when they say things like that about Trump supporters,
0:18:05 but people are addicted to the way he makes them feel.
0:18:10 And this is like multiple arenas full of that addiction.
0:18:14 – Do you sense that cult-like addiction atmosphere
0:18:18 is more intense than you would expect
0:18:20 at the Democratic Convention?
0:18:23 – Well, I mean, if you just look at the polling
0:18:27 on enthusiasm behind these candidates, yeah,
0:18:30 I mean, the DNC would seem more like a Tea Party, right?
0:18:32 And this is like a rager at a dive bar
0:18:34 where everyone is having the time of their lives
0:18:36 doing karaoke, right?
0:18:38 But at this particular moment,
0:18:40 I don’t see the Democrat enthusiasm
0:18:42 coming anywhere to match this.
0:18:44 And I was listening to Frank Luntz talk about
0:18:47 what he’s seeing in the polling and focus grouping
0:18:50 post-assassination attempt.
0:18:52 And he said he doesn’t think the race is going to move.
0:18:54 And I agree with that.
0:18:58 But where you will see the movement is in the enthusiasm.
0:18:59 And we’re looking at a situation
0:19:02 where every single Trump voter is going to show up.
0:19:03 And we have to be sure
0:19:05 that every Democratic voter shows up.
0:19:08 And I certainly can’t guarantee something like that
0:19:09 at this particular moment.
0:19:12 – Talk a little bit about Project 2025
0:19:14 or what I refer to affectionately
0:19:16 as season seven of The Handmaid’s Tale.
0:19:18 Are they, do you get the sense
0:19:20 they’re trying to distance themselves from that?
0:19:21 – Oh, yeah.
0:19:22 – Are there folks, say more?
0:19:24 – Well, Trump put out on Truth Social.
0:19:26 I don’t know anything about it.
0:19:28 I mean, it’s saying that he’s mentioned 312 times in
0:19:30 that everybody who worked with him
0:19:33 has played an integral role in shaping.
0:19:35 He says he knows nothing of.
0:19:37 And I think that that’s one of the points
0:19:39 that Democrats have to keep hammering.
0:19:43 Finally, the polling is reflecting an awareness for this,
0:19:44 which I have to say is, you know,
0:19:46 no credit to the media on this.
0:19:48 They have not been amplifying it, I think,
0:19:50 to the level that it deserves.
0:19:52 When you think about that this is a man
0:19:53 who has remade the courts, right?
0:19:56 The Supreme Court has gone basically forever more.
0:19:58 And if Trump wins again, you know,
0:20:01 you could see a couple justices just retiring, right?
0:20:05 To let him get in another Amy Coney Barrett or two.
0:20:09 But he has nothing to hold him back, right?
0:20:10 This is the revenge term.
0:20:13 He has four years to do whatever he wants.
0:20:15 And he’s made clear multiple times
0:20:16 what it is that he wants to do.
0:20:18 We know where he stands on immigration.
0:20:20 We know where he stands on bodily autonomy,
0:20:21 that he’s fine.
0:20:23 If you say leave it up to the states,
0:20:24 that means that it’s just fine.
0:20:25 Like in J.D. Vance’s home state,
0:20:28 to have such a prohibitive abortion ban
0:20:29 that a 10-year-old who got raped
0:20:31 has to go to Indiana for care.
0:20:34 So I think that we have to do a better job
0:20:36 talking about Project 2025.
0:20:38 All the time it should be more than 50% of people
0:20:39 who know what it is.
0:20:41 But the fact that Trump said,
0:20:42 I don’t know anything about this,
0:20:44 means that he’s scared shitless
0:20:46 about the impact of this on the election.
0:20:49 – What impact, if any, will the RNC have
0:20:51 on Biden’s campaign?
0:20:53 It feels as if the calls to the president
0:20:55 to withdraw from the race have,
0:20:57 at least there’s been sort of a pause on it.
0:20:58 Do you think it picks back up
0:21:01 and any thoughts on where that stands?
0:21:03 – Well, there are two big reports
0:21:04 in the last couple of days.
0:21:06 There’s Adam Schiff at a fundraiser
0:21:09 where he said, “If Biden’s top of the ticket,
0:21:10 “I think we lose the house.”
0:21:13 And we don’t regain the house and we lose the Senate.
0:21:17 And then on Monday, Politico was reporting,
0:21:18 I think it was Rachel Bates’ piece,
0:21:22 that Nancy Pelosi’s been working the phones.
0:21:25 That she cannot stand this chatter
0:21:27 that Democrats don’t care about what happens.
0:21:29 I’m sure you saw this in Axios,
0:21:31 that they’ve resigned themselves to another Trump term
0:21:34 and Nancy Pelosi is not having any of that.
0:21:37 And if there’s one consistency in life,
0:21:39 it’s that if Nancy’s Pelosi is working against you,
0:21:41 you’re in a lot of trouble.
0:21:44 So I think that it might be on the surface quiet
0:21:46 and a lot of that has to do with the assassination attempt.
0:21:50 I mean, you have to give someone at least a few minutes
0:21:52 after something like that happens,
0:21:54 but I don’t think that it’s really quiet.
0:21:58 And what he aimed to achieve with the Lester Holt interview,
0:22:00 I think felt short.
0:22:03 And one of the answers that stood out the most to me,
0:22:05 besides the conversation about the bull’s eye,
0:22:07 you know, putting Trump in the bull’s eye
0:22:09 and the rhetoric quote coming from both sides,
0:22:12 which I don’t think these are comparable at all.
0:22:14 But Lester Holt asked him about, you know,
0:22:19 who’s making the decision if you were to step aside.
0:22:20 And he just said me.
0:22:24 And it sounds like a man alone on an island, right?
0:22:26 And maybe Hunter and Joe are there,
0:22:29 but I had never heard him talk that way.
0:22:32 And he was defiant, you know, saying me.
0:22:35 And that isn’t the usual ethos of Joe Biden
0:22:39 and that is certainly not the ethos of the Democratic Party
0:22:40 or what we purport to be.
0:22:44 And there are rumors that the DNC might hold an early vote
0:22:47 on making him the nominee and do that virtually.
0:22:50 People are pushing back against that idea.
0:22:52 I think it would be a big mistake
0:22:55 to make people feel like post-debate.
0:22:58 They don’t have any agency in what happens
0:23:00 going forward to November.
0:23:02 – Jessica Tarlove is a political analyst
0:23:05 and a co-host on the five, Fox’s weeknight news program.
0:23:07 She joined us from the Republican National Convention
0:23:08 in Milwaukee.
0:23:10 Jess, as always, it’s great to hear from you
0:23:12 and enjoy yourself.
0:23:14 And we’ll look forward to catching up soon.
0:23:16 – Absolutely, thank you for having me.
0:23:19 – We’ll be right back for our conversation with Reed Hoffman.
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0:27:00 (upbeat music)
0:27:02 (upbeat music)
0:27:09 – Welcome back, here’s our conversation with Reed Hoffman,
0:27:12 founder of LinkedIn, investor and strategist.
0:27:16 – Reed, where does this podcast find you?
0:27:18 – I am just outside Seattle.
0:27:22 – So, Biden question mark, you’re sort of an,
0:27:23 you’ve become sort of this elder statesman
0:27:25 of the tech community and what I’ll call
0:27:27 center-left politics.
0:27:31 What are your thoughts on the state of play
0:27:33 around the calls for Biden or the concern,
0:27:34 I won’t even say calls,
0:27:37 the concerns around the Biden campaign right now?
0:27:40 – Well, I mean, he obviously had a,
0:27:44 frankly, just disastrous debate performance
0:27:47 in terms of kind of what I think my family
0:27:50 would call senior moments in the thing.
0:27:53 And that obviously legitimately causes a bunch of concern.
0:27:58 I obviously, if you kind of asked me,
0:28:01 which of my more concerned about a bad debate
0:28:04 with senior moments or a lying felon
0:28:06 who doesn’t care about the country,
0:28:09 I have a clear point of view about which one
0:28:12 is more disqualifying for being president.
0:28:15 But it’s obviously, I don’t mean to paper over the concerns
0:28:20 because I think probably everybody would prefer
0:28:21 people who are 20 years younger
0:28:23 contending for the presidency.
0:28:26 – It’s just a question of do you express your age
0:28:31 through slowness, but kindness and care or demented lying?
0:28:35 – So a lot of this comes down to,
0:28:37 I mean, we’ll know this will either happen or not happen,
0:28:40 I think in the next couple of weeks, just logistically,
0:28:43 I mean, time is on both Biden and Trump’s side now,
0:28:45 that if Biden, for whatever reason,
0:28:48 doesn’t succumb to the pressure or,
0:28:50 I mean, at some point it becomes logistically infeasible
0:28:51 to replace him, right?
0:28:55 And I think his view right now is perception is,
0:28:58 right now the path to presidency would be,
0:29:01 I’m not him, meaning Trump.
0:29:02 The thing that I think would force him out,
0:29:04 and I’m curious if you believe this is true,
0:29:08 is if there was a dramatic reduction in donor money.
0:29:12 And you’re a whale, you are in your flight,
0:29:14 you’re out of rare altitude,
0:29:15 both in terms of your own personal giving,
0:29:17 but also the people you know.
0:29:21 I’m when what, I bucket the fundraising into whales,
0:29:24 such as yourself, porpoises, such as myself,
0:29:27 they give tens of thousands, but not millions.
0:29:31 And then the small, you know, small money donors,
0:29:33 they call them minnows, but a lot of minnows
0:29:35 can make up, you know, a formidable force.
0:29:39 But what I see is the porpoises are in full revolt.
0:29:43 The people I speak to are not only signing letters
0:29:45 to try and ask to get them to step down,
0:29:48 but starting to try and think about the next wave of candidates
0:29:51 and commit money to supporting them.
0:29:53 What is happening among the whales
0:29:56 in terms of their giving, are they holding back,
0:29:57 or are they taking a wait and see attitude?
0:29:59 Are they rallying around the president?
0:30:02 What’s going on at your altitude?
0:30:05 – I would say that they’re just like the porpoises.
0:30:08 And you know, I’d actually rather be, you know,
0:30:09 in the, in this, in the bestiary,
0:30:11 I’d rather be, you know, you porpoises on the dolphin.
0:30:13 – You’d rather be flipper?
0:30:14 – Yes, exactly.
0:30:18 But I would say that it’s the same, you know,
0:30:22 amongst the whales, there’s a deep concern
0:30:26 about if you’re showing fatigue now,
0:30:30 and it’s four months of a very grueling path,
0:30:32 you know, what does that look like?
0:30:36 And does that give Americans, you know,
0:30:40 not the right sense of what the vigor of, you know,
0:30:43 I care about kind of everyday Americans,
0:30:46 and I care about, you know, people other than myself,
0:30:47 you know, what does that present like?
0:30:51 And I’d say that the whales are also,
0:30:56 wait and see is probably too passive,
0:30:59 but very concerned with what the forward path looks like.
0:31:02 And so therefore are, you know,
0:31:05 I’d say donations have slowed down a lot from that.
0:31:07 Now, on the other hand, of course, you know,
0:31:09 one of the things that was very interesting to me
0:31:12 about kind of looking at the post-debate
0:31:14 was how much grassroots went way up.
0:31:17 And it may be, you know, a function of, you know,
0:31:21 seeing Biden as easy as he is, a very decent man
0:31:24 who cares about other people, you know,
0:31:26 so I always worry a little bit about,
0:31:29 you know, what the perspectives are,
0:31:31 and make sure that you can see, you know,
0:31:34 what is the everyday American, or the youth perspectives,
0:31:37 and not just, you know, kind of from where I sit.
0:31:38 – But to put a fine point out,
0:31:40 you’re one of the deepest voices
0:31:42 in the Democratic Party right now.
0:31:43 People listen to you, Reed.
0:31:45 Where are you today?
0:31:46 Do you feel the best course of action
0:31:50 would be to mature, battle test,
0:31:52 and support and rally around another candidate,
0:31:56 or for us to stop this and rally around Biden?
0:32:01 – Well, I would like to see Biden show the vigor
0:32:05 of campaigning that he is gonna need to see.
0:32:07 It’s not just like the ABC interview,
0:32:11 but maybe call it the ABC interview every day.
0:32:14 If we see that, then I think we should be, you know,
0:32:18 rallying around Biden and stopping this discussion.
0:32:21 If we don’t see that, if this is just the, you know,
0:32:24 look, you know, he’s dedicated his entire life
0:32:26 to public service, this is everything he’s done,
0:32:27 and it’s contributing massively.
0:32:31 But if it was like, look, I can only imagine
0:32:33 what running at his age is like.
0:32:34 It was like, look, I’m too tired for this.
0:32:36 Then it’s like, then I think we should, you know,
0:32:39 kind of open up the field.
0:32:42 – Yeah, but you do still think it’s a possibility
0:32:44 that he can demonstrate that type of vigor
0:32:47 in a short enough time to give people an option
0:32:49 that it’s not a run out the clock strategy
0:32:50 that you think that they’re–
0:32:54 – No, I would oppose a run out the clock strategy.
0:32:55 My voice, and as much as, you know,
0:32:57 my voice matters in any of this stuff,
0:32:59 is come be vigorous now.
0:33:01 – You wrote a pretty powerful piece.
0:33:04 I think I read it in The Economist talking about
0:33:06 that Silicon Valley business leaders
0:33:08 who are endorsing Trump because they believe
0:33:10 he is better for business.
0:33:12 What is the sentiment you’ve been hearing,
0:33:15 and how exactly, why do you think Trump is bad for business?
0:33:19 – So one of the things, I think that people kind of say,
0:33:21 oh, it’s obvious that Trump’s better for business
0:33:24 ’cause he’s a business person, he lowers regulation,
0:33:28 he’s lower taxes, all the classic things that, you know,
0:33:31 people say, hey, that’s good for business.
0:33:34 But what they miss is what’s fundamentally critical
0:33:38 for business is kind of a stable society,
0:33:40 a rule of law society, you know,
0:33:43 kind of open markets and good relationships
0:33:45 with other countries for, you know,
0:33:47 kind of products and services.
0:33:52 And in all of that, Trump is essentially a disaster.
0:33:56 And so part of the reason I wrote this piece
0:33:58 for business people was to say, don’t, you know,
0:34:02 kind of think, oh, 1% or 2% differences
0:34:04 in tax rates matter.
0:34:08 Don’t think that, look, and I actually appreciate,
0:34:09 it’s one of the things that people say,
0:34:10 are you objective about Trump?
0:34:11 And I say, yeah, actually, I think one of the things
0:34:14 that he did well was to say, hey,
0:34:16 if you want a new regulation, remove an old regulation.
0:34:21 I think that’s a good refactoring of regulation stance,
0:34:24 but don’t think that’s what’s most important for business.
0:34:27 What’s actually, in fact, important for business
0:34:28 is kind of rule of law and stability,
0:34:30 and Trump basically attacks all of that.
0:34:35 And I kind of came a professional age in the Valley,
0:34:38 but I don’t feel as if I’m in touch with it
0:34:39 because I’ve been gone so long.
0:34:41 And I was, and this might be a reductive analysis,
0:34:44 but I find there’s this frightening vein,
0:34:46 or ideology in the Valley,
0:34:50 of kind of this techno-libertarian notion
0:34:52 that government is bad,
0:34:57 and that if we could just let smarter people run the organic,
0:35:00 you know, run the company, defer to the markets,
0:35:03 and specifically if the markets could kind of defer
0:35:07 to the technology leaders, that we’d all be better off.
0:35:10 And I find it very disconcerting given that I don’t think
0:35:12 these individuals recognize how blessed they are
0:35:16 by some of the underpinnings of M Blessings rule of law,
0:35:20 an incredible business ecosystem.
0:35:21 Am I being dramatic here?
0:35:24 Is there sort of a concerning vein
0:35:28 of this sort of techno-libertarian within the Valley?
0:35:29 – No, I don’t think you’re being dramatic.
0:35:30 I basically completely agree.
0:35:32 It’s one of the reasons why, you know,
0:35:37 kind of I argue for the value of government,
0:35:40 the value of better government.
0:35:41 There’s never great government.
0:35:43 There’s always inefficiencies there,
0:35:45 but the difference between, you know,
0:35:50 call it B and B plus can actually make a very big difference.
0:35:53 And I think the libertarian thing, which by the way,
0:35:54 comes from, in some places,
0:35:56 comes from places that are not terrible,
0:36:00 which is like, hey, we can build amazing new companies,
0:36:01 amazing new technologies.
0:36:02 Those can make a very big difference.
0:36:05 I agree with all of that very strongly.
0:36:07 But the notion that it’s like,
0:36:09 oh, government is bad or gets in the way,
0:36:11 it’s like, well, actually, in fact,
0:36:12 if you look at everything
0:36:15 that our Silicon Valley entrepreneurship, you know,
0:36:19 can create comes from many different platforms
0:36:20 that government has enabled.
0:36:22 Isn’t just rule of law, isn’t just a piece of society,
0:36:26 isn’t just a, you know, kind of university system
0:36:29 and technology system and funding of these technologies
0:36:31 that then, you know, get created into companies,
0:36:35 but it’s the very kind of the system
0:36:37 that we can deploy our products and services
0:36:40 and hire talent and offer, you know,
0:36:42 kind of stock, you know, for sale.
0:36:45 And all of that’s within a government regulated environment.
0:36:50 So I frequently argue vociferously with, you know,
0:36:53 what I refer to as techno libertarians.
0:36:56 – So let’s switch to AI.
0:36:57 Where are you most bearish and bullish
0:37:00 when it comes to use cases and applications?
0:37:05 – Let’s see, so on the bearish side,
0:37:09 what I would say is that there’s a couple of things.
0:37:10 One is it’s hard to know exactly
0:37:12 where to be bearish over time
0:37:15 because I think Ethan Mulligan, co-intelligence,
0:37:18 you know, said something, you know, that’s a good maxim,
0:37:19 which is the worst AI you’re ever gonna use
0:37:21 as the AI you’re using today.
0:37:24 And there’s a bunch of things
0:37:26 that are kind of being developed.
0:37:30 Now, I think people being overly Pollyannish about,
0:37:35 oh, you know, AI is gonna solve fusion for us in three years
0:37:38 is I think, you know, a mistake in various ways.
0:37:42 In the positive sense, I think that it’s funny,
0:37:43 even with all the hype,
0:37:46 I think it’s to some degree understated,
0:37:50 relative to if you think about the fact
0:37:52 we are language creatures
0:37:53 and that everything we do is in language
0:37:57 and you have it minimum a language amplifier.
0:37:59 So you say, well, I have a steel manufacturing company,
0:38:00 what’s AI gonna do for me?
0:38:03 It’s like, well, but you have sales, you have manufacturing,
0:38:05 you have financial analysis, you have meetings,
0:38:08 you have decisions, all of which there’s gonna be
0:38:09 essentially co-pilots for.
0:38:14 And so I’m very bullish across all of this productivity.
0:38:17 That doesn’t mean that it doesn’t come without challenges
0:38:22 in terms of how jobs change and all the rest.
0:38:25 But I think that the amplification here is really big.
0:38:28 And what’s more, it doesn’t even get to,
0:38:32 like the two kind of cases that I usually use is
0:38:35 I have a line of sight to having a tutor
0:38:37 and a medical assistant on every smartphone
0:38:41 that is kind of there for every human being
0:38:42 who has access to a smartphone,
0:38:45 which is amazing human elevation.
0:38:47 But I also think it gets interesting in terms of,
0:38:51 what does it mean for drug discovery
0:38:55 or other kinds of places where the deeper uses
0:38:59 of language and predict the next token
0:39:01 can actually apply to things that make a huge difference
0:39:03 for the quality of human life.
0:39:07 So overly very, very bullish bearish
0:39:10 on Pollyanna short-term claims.
0:39:13 – One of the concerns I have, and I think it did some number
0:39:15 of people share is that,
0:39:18 technology is either go to existing players or new players.
0:39:22 And it feels with AI, that while there’s some new brands,
0:39:25 it feels as if the majority of the spoils
0:39:26 are going to not only existing players,
0:39:29 but a small number of existing players.
0:39:31 You were a co-founder and inflection,
0:39:35 which got, my understanding has got sold to open AI.
0:39:38 You’re on the board of Microsoft,
0:39:40 Amazon’s an investor in Anthropic.
0:39:44 It all feels very incestuous.
0:39:47 Are you at all worried about the concentration
0:39:50 or increased concentration of wealth and power
0:39:54 to even a smaller circle of companies and individuals
0:39:57 and what is probably the next big technology?
0:40:00 – Well, there’s multiple questions there.
0:40:02 So I’m gonna kind of unpack them a little bit.
0:40:05 One, inflection is still a going company.
0:40:07 I had a board meeting a couple of weeks ago.
0:40:10 It did a business deal with Microsoft,
0:40:13 which involved a license and Mustafa Suleiman went over
0:40:14 to build agents for them,
0:40:18 ’cause we pivoted away from agents to be-to-be stuff.
0:40:20 And so there’ll be a bunch of stuff announced.
0:40:22 That’s just a small thing.
0:40:24 Well, I actually think the actual truth of the matter
0:40:27 is the rewards, everyone’s investing pretty heavily,
0:40:30 but the rewards haven’t really started showing up yet.
0:40:32 I’m not concerned by that.
0:40:34 Some people then say, well, hey, doing all this investment,
0:40:37 why isn’t the rewards showed up this quarter?
0:40:38 And the answer is actually, in fact,
0:40:40 the most interesting things are the things
0:40:43 that compound over 10 years versus, you know,
0:40:45 something makes a difference and, you know,
0:40:48 you invest this year and your profit margin
0:40:49 goes up next year.
0:40:52 So I don’t think the rewards actually have been
0:40:53 divided up that much yet.
0:40:59 Now, what is showing is that one part of the revolution
0:41:03 that we’re in here is the scale compute revolution.
0:41:07 And the ability to drive scale compute
0:41:11 is mostly not very much of a startup gain.
0:41:15 There’s a reason why, or if it is a startup gain,
0:41:18 like OpenAI, it’s adjacent to large companies.
0:41:22 So you got OpenAI, which is adjacent to Microsoft.
0:41:26 You’ve got Anthropic, which is adjacent to Amazon,
0:41:30 you know, et cetera, as essentially what’s driving them.
0:41:33 And that does mean that there is some limitation there.
0:41:37 That doesn’t mean that that’s a necessary critical problem
0:41:39 because there’s all kinds of places where you say,
0:41:41 well, I would like to, you know,
0:41:44 create a startup of a desktop search company
0:41:46 and you can’t really do that.
0:41:50 What you want for the vulnerability of these companies
0:41:53 to be taken as by, with new technologies, new platforms,
0:41:55 new other kinds of things as well as doing it,
0:41:58 not necessarily by going at their strengths.
0:42:00 Now, that being said, though,
0:42:03 I think the deepest, most implicit part of your question is,
0:42:06 is there startup opportunity here
0:42:09 that can build new pillars of strength
0:42:11 that are not being subsumed
0:42:13 with smaller number of companies?
0:42:15 And I think the answer is absolutely yes.
0:42:19 I think that startups not only can use a ton
0:42:21 of the different models that are being built,
0:42:24 but also, you know, they’re gonna have the opportunities
0:42:26 to build, you know, pretty amazing companies
0:42:29 because we have multiple large language models
0:42:30 that are competing with each other.
0:42:32 Like if it was just one large language model,
0:42:33 that would be a concern,
0:42:34 ’cause then you kind of say,
0:42:37 “Hey, we’re gonna try to grab all the economics ourselves,”
0:42:40 but you not only have Google and Microsoft and OpenAI
0:42:40 competing with each other,
0:42:42 but you have multiple other folks
0:42:44 trying to come into the entry there,
0:42:48 and you can look at what Anthropic and Amazon are doing.
0:42:50 And so I think there’s a lot of startup opportunity,
0:42:51 and I’m putting my money where my mouth is
0:42:54 as an investor at Greylock and personally,
0:42:57 and starting Inflection and all of this.
0:43:01 So I actually think that, you know, the very last point,
0:43:03 and I think this is probably the deepest point
0:43:07 that you and I have some interesting zones,
0:43:08 or one of the deep points,
0:43:11 I don’t know if it’s the deepest of conflict then,
0:43:13 is that I actually think we’re, you know,
0:43:16 call it five to seven large tech companies
0:43:20 heading the 15, not five to seven heading the three.
0:43:22 – You think that this is gonna create,
0:43:24 that will birth new giants here,
0:43:26 and that the ecosystem will actually,
0:43:29 it’s not gonna be one apex predator killing everybody,
0:43:31 or you don’t think it’s gonna be consolidation,
0:43:33 you think that it’ll spawn new giants?
0:43:34 – Exactly.
0:43:35 – Do you think there’s a bit of a bubble?
0:43:38 I don’t, it’s hard to argue that AI
0:43:40 is gonna have a seminal impact on business
0:43:42 and the economy and society.
0:43:43 Do you think we might be in a bit of a bubble
0:43:46 as it relates to valuations?
0:43:49 – Well, it’s definitely, which we always get
0:43:53 in new technology waves, which is people go,
0:43:54 we know there’s gonna be huge impacts
0:43:56 to embedding on tons of companies,
0:43:59 and so it creates a valuation increase
0:44:01 across a lot of companies.
0:44:03 And then in retrospect, you go,
0:44:04 well, that was clearly a bubble
0:44:05 because a number of those companies,
0:44:08 that valuation increase was incorrect, right?
0:44:13 But on the other hand, part of how the market functions
0:44:17 is to say, hey, we know we’re all kind of putting
0:44:19 our bets on which ones are gonna be,
0:44:21 which ones are gonna be the enduring big ones,
0:44:23 which are gonna be the new big ones,
0:44:26 and which ones are not gonna hit the wave.
0:44:28 And so I think to some degree,
0:44:31 there’s a significant number of companies,
0:44:32 which will show in retrospect,
0:44:36 have their valuations bit up in ways that I disagree with.
0:44:38 I didn’t buy, right?
0:44:40 I don’t do shorts, I just don’t think,
0:44:42 I build things for long,
0:44:44 but I kind of don’t buy those valuations.
0:44:46 On the other hand, of course,
0:44:47 the whole game is, well,
0:44:49 which ones actually have copped this?
0:44:53 And this will be the next technological wave
0:44:55 that’s bigger than, you know,
0:44:57 the internet, mobile, cloud competing,
0:45:00 ’cause it compounds all of them.
0:45:03 It amplifies them to the next level.
0:45:04 – There’s, people have outlined
0:45:06 a bunch of potential dangers from AI,
0:45:08 whether it’s sentient or concentration
0:45:11 or self-healing weapons,
0:45:16 or, you know, it being used as for mis and disinformation.
0:45:19 What risks do you think are underhyped if any,
0:45:21 and which ones are overhyped?
0:45:25 – So I think the ones that are underhyped are,
0:45:27 and tend to get masked by a number of things,
0:45:31 is this is, you know, with my book impromptu,
0:45:34 I basically said this is amplification intelligence,
0:45:36 is what I’m looking at versus artificial intelligence
0:45:38 and kind of human amplification,
0:45:42 and bad actors being amplified.
0:45:46 So whether it’s cyber criminals, terrorists, rogue states,
0:45:48 you know, it’s one of the things that, you know,
0:45:53 has me, you know, very concerned about what these things are,
0:45:57 like in the kind of the, in the cyberspace realm,
0:45:59 to use a dated term, but to, you know,
0:46:03 we have a bunch of equivalent of open warfare going on,
0:46:07 you know, across the internet in hacking,
0:46:09 and in security where, you know,
0:46:11 governments aren’t really doing much about that,
0:46:16 and you know, what can AI do to amplify that, I think, is,
0:46:19 I don’t mean governments collectively,
0:46:22 as in kind of, you know, international treaties
0:46:25 that are being written and enforced.
0:46:27 And so I think that’s the underhyped,
0:46:28 and the area that I’m most focused on.
0:46:31 I think the overhyped one is kind of versions
0:46:35 of the super intelligent robots are coming for us,
0:46:37 ’cause I think it’s the humans with the robots
0:46:40 that are much more concerning immediately,
0:46:43 than the super intelligent robots.
0:46:46 And I’ll give you a small example.
0:46:51 Last year, I was asked to sign this 22-word statement
0:46:56 that a bunch of people I love and trust and admire signed,
0:46:58 which is, you know, AI is an existential risk
0:47:00 along with climate change, pandemic, et cetera.
0:47:04 And the reason I didn’t is ’cause AI is also
0:47:07 the only one of this list that has massive things
0:47:10 in the positive buckets, how to solve pandemic,
0:47:13 how to be looking for asteroids,
0:47:16 how to be, you know, computing, you know, energy grids
0:47:19 to try to reduce, you know, carbon footprints
0:47:20 and energy chains.
0:47:24 And so I actually think the whole existential risk
0:47:28 super intelligence is not an absolute zero percent.
0:47:29 But if you asked me to say,
0:47:34 is super intelligence risk of AI more likely all a terminator,
0:47:37 or is the earth being hit by an asteroid more likely?
0:47:41 I’m not sure which one I would,
0:47:43 which I would put as more likely.
0:47:46 – If you were to advise, hopefully, the Biden
0:47:49 or a blue administration around AI,
0:47:51 do you think that they’re headed in the right direction
0:47:54 in terms of, I mean, so far there really hasn’t been
0:47:56 regulation, there’s been sort of like this regulation
0:47:59 manifesto of like, this is what we might do.
0:48:02 What would your advice be around government involvement
0:48:05 or regulation or lack thereof with respect to AI?
0:48:08 – Well, I think Biden administration has done a,
0:48:11 like a really good process, which is first,
0:48:13 bring the companies in, sweat them for voluntary commitments,
0:48:16 you know, work really hard, push them very hard on that,
0:48:18 see what set of things is possibly doable,
0:48:22 then put that into an executive order within a frame,
0:48:25 be focused and limited, like, okay, what happens
0:48:28 with, you know, high compute models and so forth,
0:48:31 rather than trying to solve every imagined problem.
0:48:34 ‘Cause, you know, for example, if someone come to you
0:48:37 and say, okay, I want approval for a two-ton death machine
0:48:39 that someone can get drunk and run over a kid with,
0:48:41 they’d say, well, here’s a hundred things you should fix
0:48:44 and one or two of them, seat belts, you know,
0:48:47 you know, airbags or should be on the list,
0:48:49 but then there’s a hundred other things.
0:48:52 So you only really get there by working your way through it.
0:48:56 So I think the administration, you know,
0:48:58 has done a good process on this.
0:49:02 And I do think that our tool set for navigating
0:49:05 both great opportunity and human elevation
0:49:10 and preventing the challenges get stronger
0:49:11 as we’re building stuff.
0:49:14 And so I think we want to be very focused and limited
0:49:16 and until we actually, you know,
0:49:18 are really blocking the real harms.
0:49:20 We’ll be right back.
0:49:27 – This episode is brought to you by PC Optimum.
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0:49:58 – DQ presents, picture this.
0:50:02 Picture the DQ freezer home to all the Blizzard flavors
0:50:03 of the past.
0:50:06 Picture it opening to bring back
0:50:09 the Salted Caramel Truffle Blizzard for a limited time.
0:50:11 Picture that Salted Caramel Truffle Blizzard in your hands.
0:50:13 It’s all yours.
0:50:14 No, really, it’s all yours.
0:50:16 This treat is too good to share.
0:50:18 Everyone will have to get one for themselves.
0:50:21 Hurry in to get this flavor before the DQ freezer closes.
0:50:25 DQ, happy tastes good.
0:50:29 – Put your hands together for Lady Raven.
0:50:30 – Dad, thank you.
0:50:32 This is literally the best day of my life.
0:50:33 – On August 2nd.
0:50:35 – What’s with all the police trucks outside?
0:50:37 – You know, the butcher goes around just chopping people up.
0:50:40 – Comes a new M. Night Shyamalan experience.
0:50:43 – The fed’s heard he’s gonna be here to date.
0:50:44 – Josh Hartnett.
0:50:46 – I’m in control.
0:50:47 (screaming)
0:50:49 – And Salika as Lady Raven.
0:50:51 – This whole concert, it’s a trap.
0:50:53 – Trap, directed by M. Night Shyamalan.
0:50:55 William Theaters, August 2nd.
0:51:01 – You’re an investor,
0:51:03 and a couple of the things you’ve invested in
0:51:06 are you funded Eugene Carroll’s defamation suit
0:51:08 against President Trump,
0:51:12 and now you’re helping finance Smartmatic’s case.
0:51:17 I’m just curious, it feels like it’s a new wave of investing.
0:51:19 I don’t know if you pioneered it, or Peter Thiel did,
0:51:23 but it’s a very interesting means of I call it investing.
0:51:24 I don’t know what the term would be,
0:51:26 but walk us through your thought process
0:51:28 for why you decided to do it,
0:51:31 and talk a little bit about the Smartmatic case
0:51:33 and why you’ve decided to get behind it.
0:51:35 – It feels a little strange,
0:51:38 and I wish I didn’t feel the need
0:51:39 to be doing what I was doing here,
0:51:42 but it’s very much rule of law
0:51:45 and high functioning democracy.
0:51:49 And part of the thing here is to say,
0:51:53 look, we should always be resolved
0:51:56 to as strong a rule of law system as possible.
0:51:59 Now, part of that, by the way, for example,
0:52:04 every single scholarly and any source of integrity
0:52:07 says the 2020 election was fair, right?
0:52:09 It was fair, doesn’t mean it was perfect,
0:52:10 but it was fair to the standards
0:52:13 of every other election in modern history.
0:52:18 And so then you get to, okay, well,
0:52:21 people who attack that are trying to degrade our democracy,
0:52:24 degrade our trust and belief in rule of law.
0:52:27 And by the way, that trust is part of how it functions.
0:52:30 And so supporting the rule of law
0:52:33 is the thing that has been,
0:52:38 I’d say fundamental across my democracy investing,
0:52:40 but also in terms of saying,
0:52:43 hey, let’s have the legal system work,
0:52:46 because one of the things that, as you saw with,
0:52:49 for example, the Dominion suit against Fox
0:52:53 is unlike when you’re kind of litigating
0:52:55 just a freedom of speech political thing,
0:52:57 people can lie through their teeth
0:53:02 and have no consequences when you’re lying through your teeth
0:53:04 and saying, hey, the 2020 election was stolen
0:53:09 and your texts show that you’re lying through your teeth.
0:53:12 And that that’s the influence that you,
0:53:13 as a news media organization,
0:53:18 are having upon the culture, beliefs, et cetera, society,
0:53:20 in a commercial case,
0:53:24 you’re allowed to be held accountable by a jury,
0:53:28 by a system of law, by depositions and inquiry,
0:53:33 by showing what your actual communications are
0:53:35 to each other about how you’re lying with this.
0:53:38 And I think that’s part of what’s really important.
0:53:40 And so people say, wow, but that’s,
0:53:42 I’ve heard the clear, that’s lawfare.
0:53:45 And it’s like, look, the whole point about our legal system
0:53:48 and having 12 jurors, like for example,
0:53:53 the 12 jurors who convicted Donald Trump unanimously
0:53:59 of 34 felonies on doing hush money payments
0:54:05 and covering it up for political purposes,
0:54:06 for sleeping with a porn star,
0:54:09 both the prosecutor attorneys and the defense attorneys
0:54:10 helped select the journey.
0:54:13 There were probably several Trump voting jurists
0:54:15 amongst that, you know, a newest thing.
0:54:16 And one of them even said
0:54:19 that they get a lot of their news from Truth Social.
0:54:21 And that’s a jury system.
0:54:23 And so the rule of law in a jury system
0:54:26 is the thing that I’m very much supportive of.
0:54:29 And investing might be the right term,
0:54:32 but it’s really investing for truth, right?
0:54:35 And the jury system is a proxy for getting the truth.
0:54:37 – I apologize for hopping around here,
0:54:39 but I wrote down a series of questions
0:54:40 and wanted your thoughts on.
0:54:45 I’m just really curious to get your thoughts
0:54:48 on what you or your general impressions
0:54:51 and what you think can and should be done
0:54:54 regarding some of the activities we’ve had
0:54:57 on some of our elite universities.
0:54:59 And if you think that government
0:55:00 or the federal government should be playing
0:55:03 a more active role, if this is something
0:55:06 that is a signal of something deeper
0:55:09 and more mendacious and more troubling in the US,
0:55:11 but I’m curious what Reed Hoffman’s thoughts were
0:55:15 when you saw what was going on on our campuses.
0:55:18 – Well, I’ve been concerned about it for a number of years
0:55:22 and that same techno libertarian group,
0:55:25 yells about wokeism very loudly.
0:55:27 And I, by the way, agree.
0:55:28 I think that the point of the university
0:55:31 is to be intellectually challenged.
0:55:36 It’s part of what I loved about my understanding
0:55:40 of it about my undergraduate at Stanford,
0:55:42 where Peter Thiel and I would argue
0:55:44 a tremendous amount and so forth.
0:55:49 And I think that a lot of that lack of kind of rigor
0:55:52 and thinking is a problem.
0:55:54 Like, for example, the most idiotic thing
0:55:58 that I think I’ve heard said out of someone on the campuses,
0:56:01 “From the river to the sea, I’m anti-genocide.”
0:56:04 And you’re like, “From the river to the sea
0:56:06 is a genocidal comment.
0:56:10 You may not be informed enough to know.”
0:56:14 Like, understand that there’s kind of genocide and abuse
0:56:15 in lots of different vectors here,
0:56:17 and it’s very complicated.
0:56:22 And that, like, defending the fact that we have centuries,
0:56:28 not just World War II of genocide,
0:56:31 masking and anti-Semitism and a lot of the way
0:56:34 that various Arab influences,
0:56:39 including the Iranian sponsorship of the Hamas attack,
0:56:41 is based on genocidal impulses,
0:56:47 like, be a little bit more educated and informed
0:56:50 and sophisticated in your compassion.
0:56:51 – So as we wrap up here,
0:56:54 and you’ve been generous with your time, Reed,
0:56:57 you’ve checked a lot of boxes.
0:57:00 It sounds like you have a really positive relationship
0:57:02 with your spouse.
0:57:05 You’re obviously hugely successful professionally
0:57:06 and economically.
0:57:10 You have a lot of influence on a national stage.
0:57:11 Like, what boxes are left for you?
0:57:15 If you think in 10 or 20 years, there’s a few things,
0:57:16 a few boxes I’d like to check,
0:57:19 either an indelible link, things you’ve already done,
0:57:21 but you wanna do more of, or new boxes.
0:57:22 What are those things?
0:57:28 – Well, I mean, every major public interest technology thing
0:57:34 in Silicon Valley, I’ve been somehow associated with.
0:57:35 Usually, or, you know, like it’s, you know,
0:57:37 Board of Kiva, Board of Mozilla, et cetera,
0:57:38 ’cause they’re trying to figure out
0:57:41 how we build technology, scale technology
0:57:43 for society is an irrelevant thing.
0:57:46 Also, you know, helping the folks who stood up,
0:57:51 the USDS and US Digital Service and, you know, CTO office.
0:57:53 So I think technology for humanity and society
0:57:56 continues to be a very strong interest.
0:57:57 And how do we do that?
0:57:59 And by the way, I’m not anti-corporation.
0:58:02 I’m just wanna get broader than, right,
0:58:04 as a way of doing it.
0:58:07 I also think that the notions of, you know,
0:58:09 kind of like, you know, once upon a time,
0:58:11 I was thinking about, you know,
0:58:13 kind of questions around philosophy
0:58:16 and kind of how do we know who we are as human beings
0:58:18 and as society, who we should be.
0:58:20 And like, for example, a question
0:58:22 on artificial intelligence is how does it
0:58:24 change our epistemology?
0:58:27 I mean, I think, you know, a lot of our epistemology
0:58:30 has been driven by the printing press and books
0:58:33 and kind of sharing information that way.
0:58:37 What kind of new knowledge artifacts will, you know,
0:58:40 AIs be an engender?
0:58:44 And what does that mean for what is to be human
0:58:47 and kind of philosophy?
0:58:51 And those would be some gestures at some stuff
0:58:53 that I’m, you know, continuing to work on.
0:58:55 But, you know, part of, I think,
0:58:58 what it can be amazing about life is, you know,
0:59:02 discovering something that is, ah, you know,
0:59:04 it’s this thing that I should be doing
0:59:07 and so staying active in order to find those.
0:59:08 – And final question, Reed.
0:59:10 A lot of young men listen to this podcast
0:59:12 and I know you don’t have kids,
0:59:13 but you’ve been married for 20 years.
0:59:15 What advice would you have to young men
0:59:19 who are recently married about being a good partner?
0:59:23 – You know, I think it’s to be serious about it,
0:59:26 to think every week, every month,
0:59:29 how could I be a better partner,
0:59:32 have conversations and explosive conversations with it?
0:59:34 You know, sometimes people find that very awkward,
0:59:37 but you kind of like, hey, we have, call it, you know,
0:59:39 a date night a month, where we talk about like,
0:59:42 how could we be better with each other
0:59:44 in the relationship and allow, you know, like,
0:59:46 yeah, this didn’t kind of work that well
0:59:48 and this could be better and so forth.
0:59:51 And to bring that thing just like you get better
0:59:56 at everything else that involves care, intent, skills,
0:59:57 and bring that.
0:59:58 – That’s great.
1:00:00 Reed Hoffman is an accomplished entrepreneur,
1:00:01 investor and strategist.
1:00:03 He’s been a Greylock where he focuses
1:00:05 on early stage investing since 2009.
1:00:09 Reed is also the co-author of Blitzscaling
1:00:10 and several New York Times bestselling books,
1:00:13 including “The Startup of You” and “The Alliance”
1:00:15 and “Masters of Scale.”
1:00:19 He also hosts the podcast “Masters of Scale.”
1:00:20 His two main priorities these days
1:00:22 are one, using AI to benefit humanity
1:00:24 and two, protecting US democracy.
1:00:28 He joins us from his home in the great state of Washington.
1:00:31 Reed, you are an outstanding voice for the tech community
1:00:33 and a really, really wonderful role model
1:00:35 for young tech business leaders.
1:00:38 Very much appreciate you and appreciate your time today.
1:00:41 – Well, likewise and thank you.
1:00:44 I love what you’re doing and, you know,
1:00:46 whatever I can do to help.
1:00:47 – Thanks very much, Reed.
1:00:50 (upbeat music)
1:00:58 – Algebra of happiness.
1:01:00 There’s so many conspiracy theories
1:01:04 or people are trying to draw so many hollow
1:01:07 or somewhat specious conclusions or lessons learned
1:01:09 from the attempted assassination of President Trump.
1:01:10 And the thing that immediately struck me
1:01:13 was that there’s this graphic showing
1:01:16 that if he had just rotated his head
1:01:20 two inches clockwise versus two inches counterclockwise,
1:01:23 the bullet would have penetrated a skull in his brain
1:01:24 and he’d be dead.
1:01:26 I mean, this is just your life,
1:01:28 wherever you are right now,
1:01:32 is a series of small, random happenings,
1:01:36 fractions and inches that determine where you are today.
1:01:39 And what I would suggest you do and I’m trying to do
1:01:41 is just take stock of all the wonderful things in your life,
1:01:45 whether it’s you have some people in your life
1:01:47 that love you and more importantly, let you love them,
1:01:49 whether you live in a democracy,
1:01:52 whether you have opportunity to kind of pursue
1:01:54 what you wanna do, whether you have, you know,
1:01:57 you have rights, you have some economic security,
1:01:59 whatever it might be, your blessings,
1:02:01 recognize that your blessings,
1:02:02 a lot of them aren’t your fault
1:02:04 and are a function of a series of fractions
1:02:09 and inches and things that you may not even register
1:02:11 at the time around how lucky you are.
1:02:15 And at the same time, when things go poorly recognized,
1:02:17 it’s a series of small things that are small happenings
1:02:19 that were outside of your control
1:02:21 and to forgive yourself.
1:02:25 I’ve thought literally up until recently,
1:02:27 up until my kind of 40s and 50s
1:02:30 that all of the good things in my life were 90% me
1:02:31 and 10% the market
1:02:33 and all of the bad things that happened to me
1:02:36 were 10% me and 90% the market.
1:02:40 The reality is it’s probably somewhere around 51%
1:02:43 things outside of your control and 49% you.
1:02:44 And what’s the learning here
1:02:47 when things are going really well, be humble
1:02:50 and when things aren’t going well, forgive yourself.
1:02:52 (upbeat music)
1:02:54 This episode was produced by Caroline Shagren,
1:02:56 Jennifer Sanchez is our associate producer
1:02:59 and Drew Burroughs is our technical director.
1:03:00 Thank you for listening to the PropGee Pod
1:03:02 from the Box Media Podcast Network.
1:03:03 We will catch you on Saturday
1:03:06 for No Mercy, No Malice as read by George Hahn.
1:03:08 And please follow our PropGee Markets Pod
1:03:10 wherever you get your pods for new episodes
1:03:12 every Monday and Thursday.
1:03:17 Support for the show comes from Into the Mix,
1:03:19 a Ben and Jerry’s podcast about joy and justice
1:03:21 produced with Vox Creative.
1:03:24 Into the Mix is back for a new season
1:03:26 and welcomes you in with four new stories
1:03:28 that take listeners beyond the headlines
1:03:31 and into the lives of ordinary people
1:03:33 fighting for justice in their communities.
1:03:35 Starting with Aynes Bordeaux,
1:03:37 an activist and St. Louis native
1:03:40 who fought to shut down the workhouse
1:03:42 and notorious pretrial detention center
1:03:45 that she says functioned like a debtor’s prison.
1:03:48 Subscribe to Into the Mix, a Ben and Jerry’s podcast
1:03:49 to listen to the first episode
1:03:52 of this special three-part series out now.
1:04:00 [BLANK_AUDIO]