Did the creator of Bitcoin just get unmasked?

0:00:04 Okay, so maybe they found Satoshi Nakamoto, which is exciting.
0:00:07 One of my favorite mysteries.
0:00:17 It’s an intoxicating story.
0:00:20 And you’re talking about the new HBO documentary.
0:00:23 I didn’t watch it yet, but like the headlines make it like amazing.
0:00:25 I have to watch it. What’s the what’s the gist of the documentary?
0:00:28 It’s not amazing. I’m going to start with that.
0:00:30 It’s good. It’s good, but not amazing.
0:00:33 It’s interesting because the guy thinks he found Satoshi.
0:00:35 That’s the only interesting part, to be honest.
0:00:38 The documentary is kind of poorly made.
0:00:41 Like the director makes himself a pretty big character.
0:00:46 And he also says stuff that feels like unprofessional.
0:00:50 Like he’ll be talking to be like, and then, you know, they made NFTs.
0:00:52 Whatever the hell those are.
0:00:55 And it’s like, well, like, why is the narrator like so opinionated?
0:00:57 It’s kind of crazy.
0:01:02 But what’s interesting to me is look, I’m I’m I’m into any theory of who Satoshi is.
0:01:06 I think I think it is amazing that something like Bitcoin even happened.
0:01:08 It’s straight out of a movie.
0:01:09 Yeah, tell me the story.
0:01:12 OK, the whole story is this 2008.
0:01:15 Really, there’s a white paper, the big one, white paper gets released
0:01:19 where some guy posts on a forum and posts in there that, hey,
0:01:22 he thinks he solved the double spend problem, which was a lot of people
0:01:26 in the past that tried to make a virtual currency, a digital gold.
0:01:28 There was E gold. There was hash cash.
0:01:31 There was all these different things that were tried and they all filled
0:01:35 for different reasons. So, for example, E gold started to get really popular.
0:01:37 I had like two billion dollars in volume.
0:01:41 But the guy who created it created it as a company.
0:01:44 It was a founder, a CEO of a company called E gold.
0:01:46 And he lived in wherever a candidate or something like that.
0:01:50 And as it hits two billion in transaction volume and on the website, it says,
0:01:53 this is a digital currency backed by actual gold.
0:01:56 And it says, we’ll be around, you know, today, tomorrow and forever.
0:02:00 And actually, instead, knock, knock, government knocks on his door,
0:02:01 comes in, raids and puts him in jail.
0:02:07 And so problem one with digital currencies was you can’t be the guy behind it.
0:02:09 Because as soon as this thing gets popular, you have too much power.
0:02:13 And the nation states who today control the currency supply,
0:02:16 they’re not going to like you or that, or they’re just going to do
0:02:18 character attacks on you to discredit the currency.
0:02:22 OK, so Satoshi solved that problem, launching it under this pseudonym.
0:02:27 Satoshi Nakamoto, nobody knows who it is, and the anonymity of the whole thing.
0:02:28 And then he disappears. OK.
0:02:33 So the second thing was other people tried to do it with hash cash and other things.
0:02:36 But to get the actual cryptography to work, to get the currency to work,
0:02:39 you had to make sure that nobody could double spend the money, right?
0:02:41 So like one of the reasons when you swipe your credit card today,
0:02:43 that transaction goes to a bank.
0:02:46 The bank says, yes, this person’s got the money and that money is not already
0:02:49 been spent, sends that message back to the register.
0:02:51 The register says approved.
0:02:52 That lets you go by the thing, right?
0:02:57 So the bank takes its 3% fee because it’s verifying that, yes,
0:03:01 this person has the money that this person’s card is not doesn’t appear to be
0:03:05 stolen and that that money has not already been spent in another shop 10 minutes ago.
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0:03:47 So what Bitcoin did was what Satoshi did is he released this white paper
0:03:49 saying, I think I’ve solved that problem.
0:03:52 I think I’ve actually created a decentralized way to make money, meaning
0:03:56 money that can be trusted even though there’s no central party like a bank
0:03:59 or a government that is verifying all the transactions.
0:04:00 OK, so that’s the breakthrough.
0:04:01 That happens in 2008.
0:04:02 They’re discussing it.
0:04:06 2009, the first Bitcoin block happens.
0:04:10 And if this person like actually codes something, you use the phrase white paper,
0:04:15 which it starts as a white paper, which is just an explanation of a system.
0:04:18 It’s an idea. It’s an idea written out like a business plan.
0:04:20 But the technical variant of it, right?
0:04:23 Here’s the here’s the technical plan of how we could create a currency
0:04:25 that’s decentralized that every trust. All right, great.
0:04:27 But it’s not coded yet. Then he codes it.
0:04:29 And by the way, people, when they’ve looked at the code, they’re like,
0:04:32 this is not done by like a super sophisticated programmer.
0:04:35 Like there’s things that when you look at the code, you can sort of see
0:04:41 the elegance of it, the styling of it, all that the level of technical proficiency.
0:04:45 And when they look at that, they don’t think that it’s done by somebody
0:04:49 who’s a super well, a super senior programmer.
0:04:50 So they think either one of two things.
0:04:52 One, it might be an academic type of person.
0:04:56 So somebody who’s technical enough, but really it’s the theory
0:04:59 that’s the conceptual leap that was the big leap or that it might be somebody young.
0:05:02 They’re like, it works, but it’s just like the wires are messy.
0:05:06 Exactly. And by the way, the sort of sequence of events,
0:05:08 and I’m doing this off the top of my head, so I might get some dates wrong.
0:05:14 So 2009, so after the 08 financial crisis, which was like what people believe
0:05:18 was the stimulus for why Satoshi felt this needed to happen,
0:05:23 because the banks got super greedy, Lehman Brothers fails,
0:05:24 and other banks start to fail.
0:05:28 The US government steps in and buys $700 billion worth of bad debt,
0:05:31 basically bails out the banks, prints more money,
0:05:34 tries to basically paper over the problems.
0:05:40 Right. And so people who they want a currency that’s like a hard currency,
0:05:43 meaning something that you can’t just print a whole bunch more and devalue
0:05:45 my currency because some other people made mistakes.
0:05:47 They didn’t like that.
0:05:49 And in general, this idea that it’s too big to fail
0:05:50 and the government controls it, people didn’t like that.
0:05:54 And you know that he feels this way because he’s blogging every day.
0:05:59 It’s written in the there’s references to why there’s a need for this.
0:06:01 In the white paper, there’s his forum post.
0:06:04 And this is all happening on message board forums.
0:06:06 Which message board forum?
0:06:11 Originally, it was just that the sort of cryptographers like mailing list.
0:06:15 But then he created a forum of his own called Bitcoin talk.
0:06:17 So Satoshi creates Bitcoin talk.
0:06:19 His username is called Satoshi, which is a very important point
0:06:21 for how this guy thinks he found him in the end.
0:06:27 So on January 3rd, the there’s a message embedded in the first ever
0:06:31 Bitcoin block, which says the Times O3 Jan 2009,
0:06:34 Chancellor on the brink of second bailout for banks.
0:06:38 So in the very first block, Satoshi, who mined that block,
0:06:43 the Genesis block of the whole thing is basically putting in an ideal
0:06:45 like a statement there, which is Chancellor’s
0:06:48 on the on the the Chancellor’s on the brink of a second bailout for the banks.
0:06:52 Pointing out why we need something like this in the first place, right?
0:06:53 But how awful is this?
0:06:57 This is so like, you know, like in high school where you read literature
0:06:59 and they want you to dive deep and they’re like, did you notice on,
0:07:02 you know, page 200, he killed someone.
0:07:05 But you notice on page 50, he alluded to like he was going to do that.
0:07:07 Like he said, he loved red.
0:07:09 Do you know what I mean? Like this is like what this is.
0:07:12 It definitely has big aim away message energy.
0:07:16 It definitely has when I’m in the bathroom and I Sean was here.
0:07:18 He is always here.
0:07:19 It’s like, what? Why would he mean?
0:07:21 Who was trying to get poetic in the bathroom stall?
0:07:23 Like that was Satoshi on the first block.
0:07:27 All right. So he posts there now.
0:07:28 Let’s fast forward a few years.
0:07:31 So there and but Bitcoin’s like at like, you know, one cent, 30 cents.
0:07:35 It’s like not not like what Bitcoin is today at all.
0:07:36 Anywhere close to it, right?
0:07:41 And but the community is interested in it and they’re talking about it and it exists.
0:07:44 Now, a couple of you fast forward a couple of years, something happens
0:07:50 where Satoshi posts one day, then the WikiLeaks leak happens.
0:07:55 Satoshi posts and says they’ve I’m afraid that this is they’ve kicked the hornet’s
0:07:58 nest and this is going to cause a lot of unwanted, you know, attention.
0:07:59 It’s too young.
0:08:03 It’s too young to deal with the government coming after us
0:08:07 to try to shut this down because WikiLeaks is saying, oh, we can use Bitcoin
0:08:08 and the government hates WikiLeaks.
0:08:12 Therefore, they’re going to try to cut like choke WikiLeaks by by killing the Bitcoin system.
0:08:15 So isn’t that isn’t that an intoxicating thing?
0:08:20 You’re just like dorking around on a message board in your in your playing
0:08:25 with concepts of like the government is after us or like this big
0:08:30 and national security threat is bad news for us because like, you know what I mean?
0:08:33 It’s like, by the way, there’s references to this so early on
0:08:36 when nobody like, you know, Bitcoin might have had, I don’t know, 200 eyeballs
0:08:39 on it at the time, like 200 people on earth knew about Bitcoin.
0:08:43 But the foresight to say, I’m going to be Satoshi.
0:08:45 I’m going to keep this all anonymized.
0:08:48 The second thing to say, there’s there’s people like Hal Faney who go in there
0:08:51 and very early replies and like, well, if this actually became,
0:08:54 you know, adopted as well, you know, the world’s reserve currency,
0:08:57 that would make every Bitcoin worth like, you know, two million dollars or something like that.
0:09:00 It’s like, Bitcoin is worth not even one dollar.
0:09:02 Yeah, that’s just like a ridiculous thing to type out.
0:09:04 Exactly. It is absolutely ridiculous.
0:09:07 But this is like sort of the foresight, the visionary sense of that.
0:09:11 By the way, that that guy, Hal Faney, a lot of people think Hal is the Hal is Satoshi
0:09:15 because the case for Hal is brilliant, you know, cryptography mind.
0:09:18 He was the first recipient of Bitcoin.
0:09:22 So the first transaction was Satoshi sending to Hal, which if you’re a programmer,
0:09:25 it’s like, did you send to yourself? That’s usually that’s how programmers start things.
0:09:29 That might also be the case against because if this guy is trying to cover his tracks,
0:09:32 he would definitely not send to himself as the first transaction, right?
0:09:36 And then Hal gets Lou Gehrig’s disease and dies and disappears.
0:09:39 Basically, he dies at the same time, just Satoshi’s last message is worth, right?
0:09:44 So and then the fact that this person has resisted the temptation to move,
0:09:50 to like either claim credit or touch their, you know, 700 billion dollar fortune
0:09:56 that’s sitting there, not a single coin has ever been used from that fortune.
0:09:58 Maybe it’s because the guy’s dead, right?
0:10:01 Maybe that’s the only way to explain somebody who has the resistance to it.
0:10:06 So that’s also related, which is also related to this current suspect’s case.
0:10:08 Yeah. Exactly. So let’s carry on.
0:10:09 So people think it’s Hal Finney.
0:10:12 People think it might be this guy, Adam Back, who created hash cash
0:10:15 and definitely traded emails early on with Satoshi.
0:10:19 And, you know, he runs Blockstream, a company associated with Bitcoin.
0:10:20 So people don’t know who it is.
0:10:23 They think it might be this mysterious Asian guy, Wade I.
0:10:24 He’s like this brilliant cryptographer, too.
0:10:26 Nobody knows it. There’s no photos of this guy on the internet.
0:10:29 He claims so they’re like, maybe that’s Satoshi.
0:10:33 People don’t know another person who like kind of came into the mix.
0:10:35 Have you read the book about Paul LaRue?
0:10:39 I think it’s the book is called it’s about it’s called Mastermind and I haven’t read it,
0:10:42 but you told me about. Oh my God, intoxicating story.
0:10:44 And like, he was thrown in the mix.
0:10:45 So there was like all these people who thrown thrown in the mix.
0:10:47 People think it’s Elon. Is it whoever?
0:10:49 And it’s like, okay, we get sort of far fetched.
0:10:52 That’s sort of the fun of it, by the way, is like, you know, the mystery.
0:10:55 I genuinely think we are all better off not knowing.
0:10:58 In fact, I’m sort of I’ll spoil this for a second.
0:11:02 The documentary comes out. It makes a case as to who they think it is.
0:11:06 The reaction on Twitter is like, oh my God, that’s no way.
0:11:09 That’s BS. You know, that’s weak proof.
0:11:13 I don’t know. I’m maybe it’s because that was the reactor.
0:11:16 The vociferous like no way, no chance, no chance in hell.
0:11:19 I’m like, I don’t know. The evidence is sort of.
0:11:21 The evidence is sort of interesting.
0:11:23 Yeah. So the person’s history.
0:11:24 Okay. So let’s continue on.
0:11:27 So the WikiLeaks thing happens.
0:11:32 I think something like 2011, 2012 Satoshi post three days later,
0:11:33 he makes his last post.
0:11:36 So he posts WikiLeaks happens two days later, three days later,
0:11:39 last post disappears, never to be heard from again.
0:11:43 Okay. So that’s the mystery kind of like sits there.
0:11:46 Or actually, I think he did come back and post something in like 2014, 2015.
0:11:50 And by the way, he didn’t disappear as I nobody heard from.
0:11:53 He at some point even said, I’m going to move on.
0:11:55 I’m going to stop talking about I’m going to stop contributing to this.
0:11:58 Like it’s, it’s on its way and I’m going to move on.
0:11:59 I’m going to stop talking about this.
0:12:03 So then in 2014, 2015, there’s a big debate in Bitcoin
0:12:05 about like the transaction speeds too slow.
0:12:07 Some people say, Hey, we got to make the block size bigger.
0:12:09 That’ll let more transactions go through.
0:12:11 Some people say, no, no, no, you can’t change something
0:12:13 as fundamental as the block size.
0:12:16 We should do this other more complicated thing that will take years.
0:12:19 But the reason we should do that is because if we change anything
0:12:21 about the Bitcoin protocol, it undermines.
0:12:23 It’s like, oh, if you can change that,
0:12:25 then can’t you change the 21 million supply?
0:12:26 Like you lose the core credibility.
0:12:28 There’s two sides of this debate.
0:12:31 And on one side of the debate is this guy, Roger Ver,
0:12:33 who calls himself Bitcoin Jesus.
0:12:35 He made a huge bet on Bitcoin early on millions of dollars
0:12:37 and became a billionaire off of it.
0:12:39 And there’s other people who are saying,
0:12:41 look, we need to get this thing adopted now.
0:12:42 We need the quick and dirty solution.
0:12:44 Just double the block size and shut up about it.
0:12:44 All right.
0:12:47 You know, people want to use this thing and they can’t use it today.
0:12:47 They got it.
0:12:49 We got to do the fast solution.
0:12:50 Let’s go, go, go.
0:12:53 They end up actually on the wrong side of the history,
0:12:55 the community goes against them.
0:12:57 They create their own thing called Bitcoin cash,
0:12:59 kind of this thing that has low reputation.
0:13:01 The people who said, no, no, we got to stay true
0:13:02 to Satoshi’s vision.
0:13:03 We’re Adam back.
0:13:05 It’s got Peter Todd and like, you know,
0:13:07 a handful of others who said, no, no, no.
0:13:09 The thing with Bitcoin is it’s got to be pristine.
0:13:11 You can’t, it can’t be where like the government,
0:13:13 government printing money, we can’t just
0:13:14 suddenly arbitrarily change the rules.
0:13:16 It’s like people who want to follow the Constitution,
0:13:18 which is like, it’s all like a, it’s like a,
0:13:20 it’s like a pretty funny thing that the Constitution
0:13:22 was just like a group of like 20 and 30 year olds
0:13:24 who like came up with this idea.
0:13:28 And now billions of people and 250 years have passed
0:13:31 and we’ve all just kind of bought into this idea
0:13:32 that this is the way things are.
0:13:35 And no matter how the world changes, we don’t break it.
0:13:36 We don’t change it.
0:13:38 Because even if you think you get a second amendment,
0:13:40 do we need that? Is that exactly right?
0:13:41 It’s like, once you change the amendments,
0:13:42 now everything’s up for grabs.
0:13:45 And so it’s actually sort of better for the collective that way.
0:13:47 Which is like a ridiculous concept to think about.
0:13:49 And you can also say the same is true for like religion
0:13:51 and like holy texts where you’re like,
0:13:54 someone wrote this and tens or hundreds of billions
0:13:56 of people have dedicated their lives to it.
0:13:59 Like it is like a, that’s a really fascinating concept.
0:14:00 But and that’s what’s happening.
0:14:01 Or that is what you’re referring to.
0:14:03 – It goes very much like a religion.
0:14:06 And the people who follow it are very like religious about it.
0:14:08 So anyways, he weighs in one last time there saying,
0:14:10 small block size is what we should do.
0:14:12 And it goes the way of Adam Back, Peter Todd,
0:14:13 and these other guys.
0:14:15 Okay, cool. That’s the last we heard of Sotoshi.
0:14:17 And they’ve tried to find them, they don’t know how to find them.
0:14:18 So this documentary.
0:14:19 – Yeah, who’s the guy?
0:14:21 – The documentary goes through and he basically
0:14:24 under the premise of he goes to all the OG Bitcoiners
0:14:27 and he tells them, I’m doing this documentary.
0:14:28 He doesn’t tell them he’s trying to find Sotoshi.
0:14:31 He, what he tells them is more along the lines of,
0:14:32 I want to tell the Bitcoin story.
0:14:34 I don’t know if he tells them it’s going to be on HBO,
0:14:35 but like this is good for things.
0:14:37 So a lot of them agree to do this,
0:14:39 which is pretty rare for them to agree to sit down
0:14:41 and do these like taped interviews.
0:14:44 And along the way, as he’s making this documentary,
0:14:46 he’s slipping in questions about Sotoshi.
0:14:48 Who is, are you Sotoshi?
0:14:49 Why do people think that you are?
0:14:52 What’s your claim to not be, right?
0:14:54 Hey, people think that guy is, do you think that?
0:14:55 Well, what makes that credible?
0:14:57 So he’s slipping and then the documentary is basically,
0:14:59 he kind of filters out 80 or 90% of their conversation,
0:15:01 probably and kept the 10% that was about
0:15:02 like trying to figure out the Sotoshi stuff.
0:15:08 Okay, so in the end, he puts it on this guy, Peter Todd.
0:15:11 And Peter Todd seems like an unlikely character
0:15:12 for a bunch of reasons.
0:15:17 Number one, when the Bitcoin paper was released,
0:15:19 Peter Todd would have only been something like 23 years old.
0:15:20 He was like kind of like a kid.
0:15:24 Number two, he’s come out and joked around like,
0:15:25 “Yeah, I am Sotoshi.”
0:15:29 Which like, you know, the real Sotoshi is probably
0:15:30 pretty paranoid.
0:15:31 On the other hand, some people say,
0:15:34 “No, the meta game would be you jokingly say
0:15:36 that you are Sotoshi to throw suspicion off you,”
0:15:37 right, that sort of thing.
0:15:40 There’s not a lot of evidence that ties him to this.
0:15:42 So they’re like, okay, I guess it could be Peter Todd,
0:15:44 but like, why not Hal Finney,
0:15:45 the guy who got the first transaction?
0:15:48 Why not Adam Beck, who was one of the first people
0:15:49 ever to talk to Sotoshi?
0:15:52 He never has released those emails between him and Sotoshi
0:15:53 and was the inventor of hash cash.
0:15:55 Like, that guy seems more sophisticated
0:15:56 to be able to do this.
0:15:57 Why is it not a group?
0:15:58 Why is it not the FBI?
0:16:02 Like, the case against him isn’t, he can’t be.
0:16:04 It’s more of why him.
0:16:06 There’s so many other more likely people.
0:16:09 And the biggest case against him is he was really young
0:16:15 and that he kind of trolls and jokes around with this.
0:16:16 And he’s also very opinionated about other things.
0:16:20 So like, he’s very opinionated about like Russia and Ukraine,
0:16:21 like a whole bunch of shit like that.
0:16:23 And so people don’t like him in general.
0:16:24 He’s not a very well liked figure.
0:16:26 So it kind of doesn’t jive with the Bitcoin community
0:16:28 that this is our fearless leader.
0:16:30 It’s like, wait, we kind of think this guy’s kind of a prick.
0:16:34 Because Sotoshi kind of has this stoic mentality,
0:16:38 this writing that is like us versus the world,
0:16:41 like a very much like visionary attitude.
0:16:44 And you’re describing someone that may not have
0:16:47 like George Washington vibes, you know?
0:16:49 Well, the funniest tweet I saw on this,
0:16:51 because I was trying to see the community’s reaction,
0:16:53 the funniest tweet that I think is underratedly
0:16:55 how people will feel about this.
0:16:57 The guy goes, Peter Todd.
0:16:58 This, it goes, Peter Todd.
0:17:00 That’s the most average ass name I’ve ever heard.
0:17:03 This guy, this guy looks like the most average ass guy
0:17:03 I’ve ever seen.
0:17:04 Well, I’m looking at him.
0:17:06 And this guy disappointed.
0:17:08 If that was Sotoshi, I would be disappointed, right?
0:17:11 Like, oh, it’s just this guy, this is this white dude
0:17:14 who like, you know, has all these like other opinions
0:17:15 that I kind of disagree with.
0:17:17 Like that kind of, the veneer of Sotoshi goes away.
0:17:22 Whereas if you Google how Finny, he looks like a person
0:17:23 that just studies all day.
0:17:26 How was this beloved guy?
0:17:27 And then he dies tragically.
0:17:30 And it’s sort of like, he went down with the ship.
0:17:31 The captain went down with the ship.
0:17:32 He never revealed.
0:17:35 And the other thing about Hal is he cryogenically
0:17:36 froze his head.
0:17:39 And so like, if a thousand years from now,
0:17:41 cryonics are a thing and you can unfreeze there.
0:17:42 Like he’s got the private key in his head
0:17:43 and he’ll come out as Sotoshi.
0:17:44 It’s like, whatever.
0:17:47 Okay. So it’s kind of like that has that sort of aura.
0:17:48 Okay.
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0:18:19 Now let me give you the evidence.
0:18:21 Why does this documentary guy claim that it’s Peter Todd?
0:18:23 Okay. So the evidence is basically this.
0:18:26 Back right when that thing happened,
0:18:27 remember I said there was a post.
0:18:29 The WikiLeaks things happened and he disappeared.
0:18:31 Everybody thinks that it’s because of the WikiLeaks thing
0:18:33 that he got paranoid and he decided to bounce.
0:18:37 There was one other thing that happened after that post,
0:18:39 that first post that was not to do with WikiLeaks at all.
0:18:43 That thing that happened was Sotoshi posted
0:18:46 about how the transaction like mechanism works.
0:18:50 And then the first reply underneath an hour and a half later
0:18:51 is from Peter Todd.
0:18:54 But it looks like a continuation of the thought.
0:18:56 So he says in the original post, he says,
0:18:58 you know, the inputs and the outputs would match.
0:19:01 And then he, and then the Peter Todd reply comes in
0:19:04 and it just says to be specific,
0:19:06 the inputs and the outputs wouldn’t exactly match.
0:19:07 It would be whatever.
0:19:10 Now some people would say that’s just a snarky
0:19:13 internet forum like kind of rude comment.
0:19:15 Like you didn’t even, there’s no formality.
0:19:18 There’s no like, there’s no, there’s no understanding.
0:19:20 You’re just like immediately trying to like correct something
0:19:21 from somebody’s post.
0:19:22 That happens all the time on the internet.
0:19:24 Another lens you can look at that same thing is
0:19:27 Sotoshi writes this thing, comes back to clarify,
0:19:29 forgets to switch back to his alt account.
0:19:31 And that post has been up there
0:19:33 and it’s been left up there for a very long time.
0:19:35 So the guy, the documentary guy is reading that.
0:19:38 And he’s like, dude, are we, how have we missed this?
0:19:41 Doesn’t this look like it’s a continuation of the thought.
0:19:42 It’s a clarification of the thought.
0:19:45 And for this guy who claims to have not been interested
0:19:48 in Bitcoin until years later
0:19:50 and claims to be have been busy in school,
0:19:52 for him to come in at 1 30 in the morning
0:19:56 and make a super specific clarification
0:19:58 as to how the Bitcoin mechanism works.
0:20:01 That doesn’t really line up with this guy who wasn’t interested
0:20:03 and didn’t follow it and was just a kid at the time, right?
0:20:05 By the way, this is how they caught Ross Ulbricht,
0:20:06 the creator of Silk Road.
0:20:11 He just, he posted on a forum logged into the wrong username
0:20:14 or he left his email, like it was like a clerical error.
0:20:17 By the way, this is how they got Timothy McMay
0:20:18 from Oklahoma City Bombing.
0:20:20 He, one of his taillights was out.
0:20:23 Like there’s like lots of examples of big shot criminals
0:20:25 being busted over minor things.
0:20:26 – One thing like this.
0:20:29 And you know, this is, and right now on Twitter,
0:20:31 people are saying, you think Satoshi,
0:20:34 who’s been like flawless with his upset security
0:20:35 of how he did this.
0:20:38 You think he would just stupidly log into the wrong account
0:20:39 and leave the message there.
0:20:41 And it’s like, yeah, actually that happened all the time.
0:20:43 That’s actually a pretty common pattern.
0:20:45 In fact, if I said, what’s the most likely way we find them?
0:20:47 It’s either that or like, you know,
0:20:50 maybe the email he registered his Satoshi email with
0:20:51 gets leaked some other way.
0:20:53 – Yeah, it’s like, it fits a stereotype of like,
0:20:55 when you think of like the brilliant scientists,
0:20:57 you think of Albert Einstein with like mismatched socks.
0:20:58 You know what I mean?
0:21:01 Like this is like, this is the internet equivalent of that.
0:21:03 – So that’s the first piece.
0:21:06 Then, then there’s like some other,
0:21:07 there’s like a few secondary things.
0:21:08 So there’s like the language.
0:21:11 Like he writes like color with OUR.
0:21:13 He writes like in the Canadian English spelling.
0:21:15 This guy was going to school in Toronto at the time.
0:21:16 But a lot of people like, you know,
0:21:18 is this guy brilliant as Satoshi?
0:21:20 You know, is he, he was so young at the time.
0:21:21 Is this even possible?
0:21:25 And then they go find a message from him on the,
0:21:29 on the cryptography forums before Bitcoin ever came out,
0:21:32 eight years prior to when Bitcoin came out.
0:21:34 – So how old was he at that point?
0:21:36 – He’s 15 or 16 years old at the time.
0:21:38 And he writes, he’s, he’s hanging out in this,
0:21:41 you know, cypherpunk, you know, community.
0:21:45 And he’s, he basically says on the forum and he’s like,
0:21:48 he’s like, yeah, hash cash, blah, blah, blah.
0:21:48 He had that.
0:21:50 And then he’s talking about the mechanism.
0:21:52 He’s like, it would have to be something more
0:21:53 than proof of work, blah, blah, blah.
0:21:55 Effing double spend problem.
0:21:59 And that’s like the, like the snippet from this email chain
0:22:02 that he posted back then, which is like,
0:22:03 okay, so you’re 15, 16 years old.
0:22:06 You’re obviously brilliant and not just like,
0:22:08 you know, some random programmer kid.
0:22:10 And you’re thinking and noodling about this problem
0:22:11 eight years prior.
0:22:14 His mom taught him about cryptography.
0:22:15 His dad was an economist.
0:22:18 So it’s like the two skills you would need to be Satoshi
0:22:21 is like, you’d need the brilliance on the encryption
0:22:25 and cryptography side and you would need the ethos
0:22:28 and the sort of ideology on, you know, creating,
0:22:29 you know, what is a currency anyways?
0:22:30 What is money? What is hard money?
0:22:32 And how does the, how does the world economics work?
0:22:35 That’s his, this is kids background.
0:22:39 So how does he now, by the way, mid to late 30s is his age now.
0:22:42 If he works for Blockstream and he’s like very close
0:22:45 to that guy, Adam back and Adam would have been the,
0:22:47 you know, the people that he would collaborate with
0:22:48 after, after creating this.
0:22:50 Now the most damning thing is so he,
0:22:55 the documentary confronts him on like live.
0:23:00 And by the way, imagine being 39 and having this documentary
0:23:03 come out about you, like accusing you
0:23:04 of being the richest person in the world,
0:23:07 accusing you of inventing this amazing thing.
0:23:09 Like there’s one part of, there’s one side of you
0:23:12 that’s like, oh man, I want all the credit.
0:23:16 I want all, I want all this, the other part.
0:23:18 But then you’re like, well, if I’m not it,
0:23:21 but should I say I’m it, should I be it?
0:23:23 There’s also a very irresponsible part of this.
0:23:24 Let’s say this documentary is wrong.
0:23:28 I mean, you just painted it, you just ruined a guy’s life,
0:23:31 basically, like if people believe that you’re Satoshi,
0:23:33 your life immediately is in danger.
0:23:36 People think that you’re one of the wealthiest people on earth.
0:23:39 Every age government agency, every government,
0:23:41 you know, wants to sort of take you to the back room
0:23:43 and talk to you and, and sometimes worse, right?
0:23:47 So like if he is Satoshi, I think it’s a very bad thing for him.
0:23:48 I almost feel bad bringing it up.
0:23:50 But I think we, you know, we got to talk about,
0:23:52 you know, I needed to hear your reaction to this.
0:23:52 And obviously it’s out.
0:23:54 I’m not the one, you know, putting this out there.
0:23:55 It’s out now.
0:23:57 So just watch this video and tell me what you think.
0:23:58 All right.
0:23:59 So you reach out to your old buddy Adam back.
0:24:01 He said, we need to do something about this,
0:24:02 but we need to pay the debts.
0:24:04 But you can’t join the blockchain
0:24:06 because it would look too suspicious.
0:24:09 Okay. So I just watched this clip.
0:24:11 First of all, this is definitely editorial,
0:24:14 like, you know, very opinionated versus factual.
0:24:15 Right.
0:24:18 This guy, so, so basically it’s a tall nerdy guy
0:24:21 with his hands in his pockets.
0:24:24 And he’s doing exactly what I am accused of doing all the time
0:24:27 when I’m nervous, which is I rock back and forth.
0:24:27 Fidget.
0:24:29 Shifty eyes.
0:24:32 Look at, immediately look at the friend who you’re in on it with,
0:24:34 who, by the way, that guy Adam in the back,
0:24:38 who’s his friend, who was the other kind of like co-collaborator
0:24:38 on this thing.
0:24:40 Silent.
0:24:41 The entire time.
0:24:42 Like frozen.
0:24:44 You know, because the director sort of sprung this.
0:24:46 They didn’t come out here to talk about that, right?
0:24:49 They’re doing this walkthrough, this like ruins area or whatever.
0:24:50 Supposed to be talking about whatever.
0:24:51 And the director sort of does a gotcha moment.
0:24:54 And this is their reaction.
0:24:55 Dude, all right.
0:24:56 So he’s got his hands in his pocket
0:24:58 and he’s rocking back and forth.
0:25:01 I had to, um, officiate a wedding last week
0:25:03 and Sarah was like, I could tell you’re nervous.
0:25:04 No one else knew you’re nervous.
0:25:05 I knew you’re nervous.
0:25:06 And I was like, how?
0:25:08 She goes, you are rocking back and forth.
0:25:11 You kept, you kept doing that thing where you rock back and forth.
0:25:12 And I do it all the time.
0:25:13 This guy’s doing that exact same thing.
0:25:15 He’s very clearly uncomfortable.
0:25:17 And he’s got a very awkward smile.
0:25:22 This is, this is, it’s a, yeah, he didn’t respond well.
0:25:23 But you could also say like,
0:25:25 you could just chalk that up to every Bitcoiner.
0:25:25 Yeah.
0:25:26 There’s dorks, right?
0:25:28 Like they can’t make eye contact.
0:25:30 Like that’s why they’re amazing.
0:25:32 Like you can’t be this and also have good eye contact.
0:25:34 That is, you can’t, you can’t have both.
0:25:38 So what do you think is, did he, is this the guy?
0:25:40 So I don’t know if this is the guy or not,
0:25:42 but it is probably the most,
0:25:45 it’s one of the most compelling things.
0:25:46 And it’s, it’s funny.
0:25:48 It’s being so discredited by the community.
0:25:52 So either I’m missing something, which is entirely possible,
0:25:53 or it’s sort of wishful thinking.
0:25:56 Cause like it’s much better if he’s not Satoshi.
0:26:00 And I don’t think the evidence is super, super strong,
0:26:02 but it’s a very compelling theory.
0:26:03 That’s kind of where I’ve landed.
0:26:04 It’s a compelling theory.
0:26:07 This guy who clearly at 15 or 16 was brilliant
0:26:10 and thinking specifically about the double spend problem.
0:26:13 And then talks, and then comes out and then has this,
0:26:16 this forum post, which is, the timing is very interesting
0:26:18 about right when it happens, the way it’s written.
0:26:19 And then the guy disappears.
0:26:21 And then by the way, this guy also disappeared
0:26:23 for two years after that in the Bitcoin forum,
0:26:24 doesn’t participate.
0:26:25 And he’s like, Oh, I was busy.
0:26:25 I was a student.
0:26:27 Well, well, I should have been more interested in Bitcoin.
0:26:27 I just wasn’t.
0:26:29 And then when he comes back,
0:26:32 he actually does this thing called replaced by fee,
0:26:34 which is basically this mechanism
0:26:35 where you could pay a little extra
0:26:37 to get your transaction done faster.
0:26:39 And actually it’s like one of the useful patches to Bitcoin.
0:26:41 So he comes back and contributes this useful patch
0:26:44 to the Bitcoin code afterwards.
0:26:45 And in this thing, he’s like,
0:26:48 his nervous answer is basically like, what, me?
0:26:50 Oh yeah, yeah, I’m totally Satoshi.
0:26:50 I mean, that’s crazy.
0:26:52 Why are you saying that?
0:26:53 You know, you’re going to look really stupid
0:26:54 if you release this.
0:26:57 And it’s like, those are things I do when I’m trapped in a lie.
0:26:59 Maybe I’m projecting here.
0:27:05 You alluded to something about the name, Satoshi Nakamoto.
0:27:09 Is that, did he imply something earlier in his career
0:27:12 before Satoshi existed that he liked that name
0:27:13 or was tied to that name?
0:27:16 There was no, no, there’s no evidence on that.
0:27:17 The evidence was basically,
0:27:19 the combination of evidence was that forum posts,
0:27:21 the timing of both of their disappearances.
0:27:26 It’s him, you know, when he’s 15, 16 years old on the forums,
0:27:28 it’s his kind of like his spelling
0:27:29 and kind of his writing style,
0:27:31 even the way he kind of like punctuates
0:27:34 where it’s like the two spaces after the period,
0:27:36 the OUR, things that a lot of people do,
0:27:39 but they all, they don’t, they do fit with this guy.
0:27:42 Did Hal Finney write like Satoshi?
0:27:45 No, they’ve looked at like Hal Finney’s code
0:27:46 and then Satoshi’s code.
0:27:48 But then, you know, there’s an answer for everything.
0:27:49 Oh, he’s so brilliant.
0:27:51 He knew to modify the code into a different style.
0:27:53 Right? There’s an answer for everything.
0:27:55 It’s a, like all conspiracies,
0:27:56 it’s sort of what you choose to believe
0:27:57 or what you choose to not believe.
0:27:59 That’s pretty hard.
0:28:02 Like I actually think that that, that like,
0:28:05 because when I used to actually write in fake names,
0:28:07 like fake blog posts all the time,
0:28:10 and I remember trying to change how I was writing,
0:28:12 and I remember doing that and thinking,
0:28:14 this is really challenging.
0:28:15 Everyone’s going to know this is me.
0:28:17 I used to write fake blog posts.
0:28:18 Like I had like pseudonyms
0:28:20 that I would just like fill my blog with.
0:28:22 And so that’s like a pretty compelling
0:28:24 actually piece of evidence, if you ask me.
0:28:26 Yeah. Like, I want to be super clear.
0:28:28 I don’t know the answer.
0:28:30 I’m not saying I believe this or I don’t believe this.
0:28:33 I’m saying this is the most interesting theory on,
0:28:35 this is the most interesting new theory on Satoshi.
0:28:36 Right? So there’s been over the years,
0:28:37 there’s been many theories,
0:28:39 including the time when like,
0:28:41 I forgot like the New Yorker and New York Post
0:28:42 or something like chased down that random Asian guy
0:28:44 and was like, it’s him, Dorian Nakamoto.
0:28:45 This is the guy.
0:28:46 And he’s like, what?
0:28:47 He’s like, didn’t know where he was.
0:28:50 And basically like had his life ruined for like 48 hours.
0:28:53 You know, there’s been many theories over the years.
0:28:55 This might be just another harebrained theory,
0:28:57 but I would say it’s the most interesting one
0:28:58 in a few years to me.
0:29:01 And as somebody who I’m just fascinated by the story,
0:29:04 I badly want to know, but I also,
0:29:05 I understand that it would be much better
0:29:08 to never know for all of us to never know.
0:29:09 And for whoever it is, you know,
0:29:12 like I think they had a great contribution to the world.
0:29:15 And, you know, their wish was to be anonymous.
0:29:17 I think that should be, you know, respected.
0:29:20 And I think whoever is Satoshi is an extreme danger
0:29:22 once they, once it does get outed,
0:29:23 if it ever does get outed.
0:29:28 In terms of like the Olympics or the Hall of Fame of stories,
0:29:31 like JFK is like up in there,
0:29:33 the JFK assassination, who did it?
0:29:37 And I think actually this story is on par with that.
0:29:38 Do you know what I mean?
0:29:39 Yeah, exactly.
0:29:41 Like the most, you use the word intoxicating.
0:29:43 It’s like these rabbit holes that like,
0:29:45 just kind of make you wonder and you can’t,
0:29:47 you keep going back to them, you know, aliens,
0:29:50 certain assassinations, and then there’s this one.
0:29:53 This like, it kind of keeps me up at night, to be honest.
0:29:55 And I don’t even give a shit about Bitcoin.
0:29:56 But I think that it’s just like,
0:29:58 I think that what it’s rooted in,
0:30:03 potentially how one person had such an impact
0:30:04 and was so brilliant.
0:30:08 I think that if you read American Kingpin about Ross Ulbrich,
0:30:13 Ross had the same exact style where it was very romantic.
0:30:16 It was very, I want to get behind you.
0:30:17 Like it’s us versus the world.
0:30:19 Like we were on a path to greatness.
0:30:22 Like this whole, that whole concept was,
0:30:23 Ross had the exact same thing.
0:30:26 And even though he did a lot of really bad stuff,
0:30:27 you kind of want to get behind it because you’re like,
0:30:30 yeah, that’s just the price that we pay to be James Bond.
0:30:32 Like we kill bad guys.
0:30:35 And so like this.
0:30:37 Except Ross might have been a bad guy.
0:30:38 He might have been the bad guy in this case.
0:30:40 He was like, he did a lot.
0:30:42 I think that like you could do good things and bad things.
0:30:44 But I think he actually did,
0:30:46 I think that he should be in jail for a long period of time
0:30:48 because he tried to kill a bunch of people.
0:30:50 – It might be more Breaking Bad where you’re rooting
0:30:51 for Walton even though you’re like, wait,
0:30:54 I think this guy is now a drug kingpin who’s killing people.
0:30:56 – Yeah, or Tony Soprano.
0:30:57 – I still love this guy.
0:30:58 – It’s like Tony Soprano.
0:30:59 Like you want to like Tony,
0:31:00 but then you’re like, dude, you suck.
0:31:02 Like you’re a bad husband and you kill people.
0:31:04 Like just because you’re funny,
0:31:06 doesn’t mean I should make you an amazing person.
0:31:08 – Can I make a one minute Bitcoin case right now?
0:31:10 – Are you back?
0:31:13 I mean, with my back, I’ve been here.
0:31:14 – No, you haven’t been here.
0:31:16 You haven’t been here.
0:31:20 – Your interest has ebbed and flowed from the topic.
0:31:21 – Well, my interest ebbed and flowed
0:31:22 because there’s no new information, right?
0:31:26 Like the conviction has an ebbed and flows.
0:31:28 It’s like, how much new information is there
0:31:29 to pay attention to?
0:31:31 It’s in the same way that like, I’m not like,
0:31:32 oh my God, the internet is amazing.
0:31:33 It’s like, yeah, I kind of know the internet.
0:31:34 It’s amazing.
0:31:36 I made that decision a long time ago and I just used it.
0:31:38 You know, like I just, I’m in, I’ve been in, I’ve in, right?
0:31:40 Like versus when it first came out,
0:31:42 it’s like every new thing is new.
0:31:44 – It was a very exciting, it was a very exciting period.
0:31:45 But yeah, what’s your one minute?
0:31:47 – I mean, the one minute is this.
0:31:50 From the beginning with Bitcoin,
0:31:51 there’s always been these like the big risks,
0:31:52 the big question marks.
0:31:56 So once you, once you sort of accept that there’s merit
0:31:57 to having a hard currency,
0:32:00 meaning having a currency that doesn’t get inflated.
0:32:02 The way I’d look at it is Bitcoin’s a savings technology.
0:32:05 So people use, people think Bitcoin’s gonna make them rich.
0:32:07 Actually, the true purpose of Bitcoin is a store value,
0:32:09 meaning it’s meant to keep you rich.
0:32:11 So I don’t know if you’ve ever seen the charts of like,
0:32:14 you know, your money, if your great-grandparent or whatever,
0:32:17 100 years ago had left you a million dollar fortune,
0:32:21 it would be worth, you know, only 3% of what they left, right?
0:32:22 It’d be worth 30 grand today.
0:32:27 And so just in 100 years, 100 years in the United States,
0:32:29 at the targeted inflation or the actual inflation,
0:32:34 your money is going to be cut in half sort of every 30 years.
0:32:35 – Yeah, if you left it in cash.
0:32:37 – Correct, correct.
0:32:40 – Yeah, the currency itself, I’m saying, like you just said,
0:32:44 I feel safer just with the good old US dollar in the bank account.
0:32:46 It’s a bowl of ice cream that’s melting by design.
0:32:46 – Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
0:32:51 Because on average, roughly 3% a year, it gets devalued.
0:32:53 – And then that’s not a conspiracy theory,
0:32:55 that is the target inflation is 2% or 3%.
0:32:56 Sometimes it’s higher like it’s been,
0:32:59 but like the goal for them is to inflate it 2% or 3% a year,
0:33:03 which means by design, 2% or 3% a year means that in 30 years,
0:33:04 you’re gonna have whatever, half of what you’ve got.
0:33:05 – Yeah, understood.
0:33:06 – So one generation.
0:33:11 Okay, so if you want to believe that there’s merit to just like,
0:33:12 well, I’d rather save, it’s like,
0:33:14 I’d rather have a phone whose battery doesn’t drain.
0:33:17 I’d rather save my money in a currency
0:33:19 that is not designed to inflate.
0:33:22 And you might say, well, there’s still a leap of faith,
0:33:24 which is, will this be a thing?
0:33:26 Currency only matters if a bunch of people believe in it.
0:33:27 Whatever, that’s the only question.
0:33:30 – Is Bitcoin even a currency?
0:33:32 – Of course.
0:33:36 I mean, is the definition of a currency liquidity?
0:33:39 Is it, or not liquidity, the ability to, like,
0:33:42 a lot of people spending it?
0:33:44 – A better way of saying it is it’s money.
0:33:45 So it’s a money asset.
0:33:48 So it’s a form of money.
0:33:50 And it’s a, so, well, money has three jobs.
0:33:52 Store value, number one, meaning,
0:33:55 I have to believe that if I go out and I work hard every day,
0:33:57 and I get paid in this thing,
0:34:00 that this thing is gonna be valuable tomorrow or the next day.
0:34:02 – Yeah, it requires a collective buy-in.
0:34:03 – Correct, and that’s the first stage.
0:34:07 Then after it’s already accepted by many people as valuable,
0:34:10 like the way gold is accepted by many people as valuable,
0:34:12 then it can be used as a medium of exchange,
0:34:14 meaning then I’m willing to trade it back and forth with people
0:34:16 because I know they believe it’s valuable.
0:34:17 I believe it’s valuable.
0:34:18 They’re gonna believe it’s gonna be valuable.
0:34:20 They know that the next guy they wanna spend with
0:34:21 thinks it’s gonna be valuable.
0:34:24 So once we all buy into it’s valuable,
0:34:27 then it’s usable after that as a medium of exchange.
0:34:28 That part hasn’t happened yet.
0:34:29 And then the final stage is,
0:34:31 once we’re all using it as a medium of exchange,
0:34:32 we price things in it.
0:34:33 That’s called the unit of account.
0:34:36 So those are the three phases of something becoming
0:34:38 a true useful currency.
0:34:42 Today, Bitcoin is basically completing stage one,
0:34:45 where at this point, the whole world agrees that it’s valuable.
0:34:47 The bulk of the world, the majority has flipped
0:34:49 to believe that Bitcoin is valuable.
0:34:51 Okay, you can see that at the price, $60,000.
0:34:56 You can see that in who owns it, individuals, wealthy folks.
0:35:01 How many human beings own one Bitcoin or own some Bitcoin?
0:35:04 I don’t know the number of active wallets now.
0:35:06 And the hard part is one person can have multiple wallets.
0:35:09 But it’s like over 100 million for sure.
0:35:11 It’s like in the hundreds of millions of people.
0:35:12 Okay, well then I think it’s a stretch to say that–
0:35:13 Bought into the system.
0:35:15 It’s a stretch to say everyone agrees that it’s–
0:35:19 What I mean is, obviously not everybody.
0:35:21 So not 8 billion people on earth own this.
0:35:23 8 billion people also don’t own dollars, right?
0:35:24 That’s also not the case.
0:35:29 But for hundreds of millions of people to have active–
0:35:33 Like have wallets with value in them is big.
0:35:35 That’s a humongous number.
0:35:38 So anyways, that’s how the currency works.
0:35:41 So the case for Bitcoin right now is,
0:35:43 over time, there’s always been two big risks.
0:35:45 So the first risk is the government’s
0:35:47 just going to shut this down, right?
0:35:50 The smart guy case was, look, you might be right
0:35:51 that this is better than gold.
0:35:53 You might be right that it’s more secure than gold.
0:35:54 It’s easier to transport than gold.
0:35:57 That it’s the more programmable money.
0:35:59 Like I get all that, but look,
0:36:01 the government’s not going to go down without a fight.
0:36:03 Their biggest stranglehold on power
0:36:05 is that they own the guns and the money.
0:36:07 You can’t take one of their two big powers away, right?
0:36:08 They’ll still have the guns,
0:36:11 but if they lose their ability to control the money supply,
0:36:13 no government’s going to allow that.
0:36:15 And for a while, it looked like that China tried to ban it,
0:36:17 India tried to ban it, but Bitcoin was pretty resilient.
0:36:20 And now you have, in this election, for example,
0:36:22 both of the candidates are pro-crypto.
0:36:23 Donald Trump is very pro-crypto.
0:36:26 And Kamala has now realized it is now political suicide
0:36:28 to be anti-crypto.
0:36:29 Which is insane.
0:36:32 It’s crazy. They’re both on the circuit.
0:36:33 That’s wild, right?
0:36:36 Donald Trump is speaking at the Bitcoin conference.
0:36:38 Kamala stopped saying she’s going to kill crypto.
0:36:40 Well, dude, I talked to our, we have a mutual friend
0:36:46 who owns a crypto-related media business.
0:36:48 And he was like, all these politicians want to talk to me now.
0:36:50 It’s insane because they want to speak at our events.
0:36:51 They want to do all this stuff.
0:36:52 They need us now.
0:36:53 They want to participate.
0:36:54 They want to be part of the conversation.
0:36:57 And that’s insane to me, in a good way, I think.
0:37:00 But that’s wild that these people want that.
0:37:02 I mean, Trump has literally said in very Trump fashion,
0:37:06 maybe we’ll do Bitcoins and that’ll pay the debt, right?
0:37:08 He’s like, maybe we’ll just buy some Bitcoins
0:37:09 and that’ll pay everything off.
0:37:12 It’s like, ah, kind of, which, by the way, honestly,
0:37:15 if the US government quietly accumulated a stockpile
0:37:16 and then put their faith in it after that,
0:37:20 if they basically, like, they would be able to pump and dump,
0:37:21 pump and dump, basically, Bitcoin themselves,
0:37:23 or at least pump, even if they never wanted to dump,
0:37:26 meaning it would be a very easy way for a legitimate country
0:37:31 to get very wealthy by using its institutional power
0:37:35 in the world to validate Bitcoin after they’ve created a stash.
0:37:37 Anyways, but besides all that, the point is,
0:37:39 the government is now pro-crypto.
0:37:42 They’ve now realized it is political suicide to be anti-crypto
0:37:44 because there’s too many Americans who have wealth.
0:37:45 I think there’s like 40 million Americans
0:37:49 who are actively on the petitions and all that shit to say,
0:37:51 it’s like a voter block, right?
0:37:53 And if you say we’re gonna either block this or ban this
0:37:56 or confiscate this, that means something to too many Americans.
0:37:59 So now you can’t politically be in a,
0:38:02 we’re gonna shut down or kill crypto, kill Bitcoin specifically.
0:38:05 And so that’s a huge thing that changed
0:38:07 from like five, eight years ago.
0:38:09 And I feel like nobody’s really giving that,
0:38:10 nobody’s pricing that in properly.
0:38:12 Nobody’s giving that enough credit.
0:38:14 That like one of the biggest risks
0:38:15 that the US government’s never gonna go for this,
0:38:17 and now they’re pro-crypto.
0:38:18 That’s crazy.
0:38:22 The second thing is, there’s all these clips of Jamie Dimon
0:38:24 and BlackRock and all these people just shitting on Bitcoin
0:38:27 and calling it the dumbest thing, you’re idiots.
0:38:29 If you want to go lose your money, go do this.
0:38:31 And now they’re the biggest custodians
0:38:33 and the biggest salesman of Bitcoin.
0:38:35 Dude, aren’t they so full of shit, man?
0:38:38 It’s just funny how, I guess,
0:38:40 I mean, everyone deserves the right to change their opinion
0:38:42 once they gather new information.
0:38:45 But the consequences are very big.
0:38:46 So here’s the consequences of that, right?
0:38:49 A week ago, BlackRock released this presentation
0:38:51 that they’re giving about why Bitcoin is better than gold.
0:38:54 And it’s literally the same slides
0:38:56 that the crypto anarchists were using 10 years ago.
0:38:58 It’s like, here’s Bitcoin compared to gold.
0:39:00 Gold, you can’t trade, you can’t carry it easily.
0:39:02 You can’t easily divide it.
0:39:04 Gold’s not actually that scarce.
0:39:05 We can always find more.
0:39:07 Bitcoin’s actually a fixed supply.
0:39:09 And so like all of the old arguments,
0:39:12 they’re now on a roadshow to wealthy people
0:39:13 and to financial advisors.
0:39:15 So they’re basically training financial advisors
0:39:18 and their clients that a healthy portfolio
0:39:20 has 1% to 5% Bitcoin in it.
0:39:22 And they’re showing all these Monte Carlo simulations
0:39:24 that like, hey, no matter we run this
0:39:27 over the last 10 years, some Bitcoin allocation,
0:39:28 no matter when you entered,
0:39:30 whether it was peak or trough, whatever,
0:39:34 has outperformed the 80/20 stock bond portfolio mix
0:39:35 and all these other things.
0:39:37 So they’re recommending it as now the smart move,
0:39:38 the wise move to do.
0:39:40 And so they’re on a roadshow
0:39:41 because they make a bunch of money.
0:39:42 They’re incentivized to do this
0:39:44 because they make a bunch of money, right?
0:39:48 It’s the fastest growing ETF product in the world is Bitcoin.
0:39:52 I think the Bitcoin ETFs are now like some insane number.
0:39:55 And why do you need a Bitcoin ETF?
0:39:58 So the Bitcoin ETF is one of the other big counterpoints
0:40:00 was this is too complicated.
0:40:03 My mom, my dad is never going to go download a wallet
0:40:06 off this thing and figure out their private key.
0:40:08 And they’re going to be afraid to lose it.
0:40:10 Okay, Coinbase, that’s easier,
0:40:12 but like they don’t open up new accounts.
0:40:14 They just invest either 401(k) or whatever.
0:40:16 So the reason an ETF matters is now everybody
0:40:18 who’s got an account with whoever it is,
0:40:22 Morgan Stanley or Fidelity or Nationwide, whoever.
0:40:23 Dude, it’s so funny.
0:40:26 I just Googled crypto ETF or Bitcoin ETF
0:40:28 and there’s a website for Fidelity.
0:40:32 It just says, it’s an ad that Fidelity is running
0:40:33 to get me to click on.
0:40:34 And it’s about their crypto fund on a Fidelity website.
0:40:36 Dude, it’s going to start to look like life insurance.
0:40:37 It’s so funny.
0:40:40 It’s going to look like a loving family,
0:40:41 like hugging and embracing.
0:40:42 They’re like, “Our future is secure.”
0:40:46 Dude, this is like Walmart buying the supreme brand.
0:40:49 Like, dude, come on, this is lame.
0:40:50 Everybody is incentivized to do it,
0:40:53 meaning the presidents are like, “Yo, if we’re pro-crypto,
0:40:55 we unlock crypto donation dollars and this voting block.”
0:40:57 So they’re like, “All right, politically,
0:40:58 we’re now incentivized to do this.”
0:41:01 BlackRock’s like, “Yo, how much money can be made with this?”
0:41:05 Right, the ETF has had like $61 billion put into management.
0:41:06 Like in the last like, you know,
0:41:08 it’s been legal for like six months or so.
0:41:10 It’s pretty lame though, right?
0:41:11 They get a 1% fee of doing it.
0:41:14 Then they sell this as a product, as an upsell to people.
0:41:15 Now, anybody in their retirement accounts,
0:41:16 in their stock trader accounts,
0:41:18 can push one button and own Bitcoin
0:41:21 without ever having to deal with custodian issues
0:41:23 or the private keys or your wallet
0:41:25 or losing your hard drive or any of that shit.
0:41:28 And so, yes, it’s lame because it’s not cool anymore,
0:41:30 meaning it’s not cool and edgy and alt.
0:41:33 But the whole point was like,
0:41:34 it goes through this adoption phase, right?
0:41:35 And now it’s going more mainstream.
0:41:39 So I think what’s, my point is, I cannot believe,
0:41:40 as somebody who’s been watching this thing for like,
0:41:43 probably at this point, literally 10 or 11 years,
0:41:46 that now like, it was unfathomable 10 years ago
0:41:49 to be like, not only would Bitcoin be $60,000 a coin,
0:41:51 that would have already blown my mind 10 years ago.
0:41:53 But on top of that,
0:41:55 the presidents are going to be using this in their campaign.
0:41:57 They’re going to say this is a good idea.
0:41:59 They’re going to talk about, you know,
0:42:01 having a little bit of on the nation’s balance sheet.
0:42:03 Corporations are going to own this thing.
0:42:06 BlackRock and Larry Fink and Jamie Dimon,
0:42:08 they’re, that’s going to be their hero product.
0:42:09 It’s their hero skew now.
0:42:11 And then you’re just going to be able to click a button
0:42:12 and buy it as a ETF.
0:42:15 Like all of that is unbelievable to me.
0:42:17 And I feel like people really have not grasped how,
0:42:19 once you do that, you can’t unwind it.
0:42:22 So once everybody owns it in their ETFs
0:42:24 or their retirement accounts, what are they going to do?
0:42:27 You can’t, it’s too embedded in the system at that point.
0:42:29 You can’t like, you can’t rip it out.
0:42:30 Its tentacles are too deep.
0:42:36 So here’s the deal.
0:42:39 I made most of my money from a newsletter business.
0:42:40 It was called The Hustle.
0:42:43 And it was a daily newsletter at scale to millions of subscribers.
0:42:46 And it was the greatest business on earth.
0:42:49 The problem with it was that I had close to 40 employees
0:42:52 and only three of them were actually doing any writing.
0:42:54 The other employees were growing the newsletter,
0:42:57 building out the tech for the platform and selling ads.
0:42:59 And honestly, it was a huge pain in the butt.
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0:43:23 Dude, listen to this.
0:43:26 So I, this is kind of like indicative of where Bitcoin was going.
0:43:27 It’s kind of silly.
0:43:29 I, this is to the listener.
0:43:32 I’ve mentioned I moved to a small town outside of New York City
0:43:33 in Connecticut.
0:43:37 And my town is very much what you would picture of Connecticut.
0:43:40 Like the other day I went to like this fancy Ralph Laurence store
0:43:41 and they’re like, where do you live?
0:43:42 And they were like, and I was like,
0:43:45 I live where these clothes were designed to be worn.
0:43:48 Like where there’s like literally polo fields at like my,
0:43:50 at like in my hood.
0:43:54 And there’s a rowing club next to my house.
0:43:57 Like you’re on the, I guess it’s a river and you’re like rowing,
0:43:59 like crew, which growing up in Missouri,
0:44:02 that’s like the richest kid, like yuppie bullshit ever.
0:44:03 Right.
0:44:04 But I was interested in it.
0:44:06 And I, and I go to this rowing club to like,
0:44:08 see if I could like sign up for lessons.
0:44:11 And I see a Bitcoin book in the lobby of a row club.
0:44:13 So a row club is basically just, imagine a gym,
0:44:16 but instead of like just weights, there’s like areas to row, whatever.
0:44:20 And I see a Bitcoin book and I was like, wait, what the hell?
0:44:22 Why is this Bitcoin book here?
0:44:26 And then I start walking around and I see a case full of trophies
0:44:29 of high school people who have graduated from this row club,
0:44:32 but did well in high school and won championships, whatever.
0:44:35 And there’s a picture of these two guys who are 18
0:44:37 and they’re huge strapping looking dudes.
0:44:39 And I’m like, you got to be kidding me.
0:44:43 Who, why do you have a picture of the Winklevoss twins here?
0:44:46 And they go, oh, their father owns this place.
0:44:49 And when they were young and they were into rowing,
0:44:53 he built this row club so they could kind of have a place to go to.
0:44:55 And, and I was like, that’s why you have the Bitcoin book.
0:44:58 They go, yeah, they like, I don’t remember if they wrote the book
0:45:00 or if it was written about them.
0:45:01 And, you know, they’re the father’s proud.
0:45:03 So he just has like their book in the lobby.
0:45:05 And I was like, that is so funny.
0:45:11 And so this row club is founded by the Winklevoss father, whatever.
0:45:15 And it’s like, doesn’t it seem like they would totally call their dad father?
0:45:18 Oh, yeah, yeah, for sure.
0:45:22 I’m going to demand that my kids call me father.
0:45:26 Because I feel like that’s just like already like 25 prestige points in life.
0:45:30 Dude, I tell my little daughter whenever we FaceTime grandma, I go,
0:45:31 there’s your grandmother.
0:45:31 Yeah, that’s wild.
0:45:32 That’s so funny.
0:45:34 You live the most preppy life now.
0:45:36 Yeah, you know what?
0:45:38 Embrace it.
0:45:40 It’s kind of fun, if I’m being honest.
0:45:41 It’s kind of fun.
0:45:43 So I enjoy it.
0:45:48 But dude, this Bitcoin stuff, I, I wouldn’t say I’m,
0:45:53 I’m not exactly a hater of it, but I love like poking holes in it because I think
0:45:57 that’s just a fun position to have with this whole conversation.
0:46:00 But for this podcast, I want it to be back.
0:46:03 I had so much fun hearing these stories.
0:46:07 I think it’s like the stories in the drama regarding this whole community and this
0:46:11 thing is so cool, like all time great.
0:46:13 Like just some dork invented this shit.
0:46:15 Some nerd and they call the cyberpunk invented this thing.
0:46:20 And now fidelity is like, you know, however many tens of thousands of employees and like
0:46:23 the most amount of money in the world is all like rallying around this.
0:46:25 I think that is such an exciting story.
0:46:27 There’s yet to be a great movie around this.
0:46:29 And I think it’s too hard of a story to tell.
0:46:31 There needs to be like only a couple of storylines for this movie,
0:46:33 but I’m really excited for something like that.
0:46:36 And frankly, I want to go and read more books on the topic because every book I’ve
0:46:37 read about Bitcoin has been fairly.
0:46:39 Yeah.
0:46:39 Yeah.
0:46:42 Well, it depends if you want the thriller or you want the theory, right?
0:46:44 There’s like, no, no, I don’t, I don’t want that.
0:46:52 No, I just want like, tell me about somebody like died or just sex, death and war.
0:46:56 Like, you know, like rebel rebels doing shit.
0:46:57 That’s what I want.
0:46:57 Okay, fair enough.
0:46:58 Fair enough.
0:46:59 Then you might like this documentary.
0:47:00 I don’t know.
0:47:00 We’ll see.
0:47:04 Actually, the best, the best one of that is there’s a documentary about this business
0:47:06 called Quadriga.
0:47:07 Did you ever watch this one?
0:47:08 No, what’s that?
0:47:14 It’s the best murder mystery, crazy, like just insane,
0:47:17 bat shit, crazy, scammy, like a movie about crypto.
0:47:20 Oh, is this the guy who died?
0:47:21 Trust no one.
0:47:23 The guy who died in India.
0:47:25 And they’re like, dude, you faked your death.
0:47:29 And like the Indian doctor, we already talked about it.
0:47:32 The Indian doctor faked the autopsy.
0:47:33 Well, they don’t know.
0:47:34 That’s a theory, right?
0:47:37 So yeah, it’s called trust no one, the hunt for the crypto king.
0:47:42 That’s probably the most like thriller version of a crypto movie that I’ve seen.
0:47:46 Dude, I just watched this one about these kids from Long Island who like moved to Miami
0:47:54 and they came up with like some ICO scam and they document this guy as he’s telling his story.
0:47:56 But coincidentally, he’s also still on trial.
0:47:59 So you get to see him like going through trial and then eventually getting acquitted.
0:48:03 And we talked about this particular guy.
0:48:07 We’re like, he was posting pictures of his like his abs and his Ferrari on his Instagram.
0:48:10 And we’re like, dude, if you have abs and perfect teeth and you’re also in the crypto
0:48:12 community, you can’t be trusted.
0:48:15 And like Floyd made weathering about these guys like back to shit.
0:48:17 And we’re like, this is this is a complete scam.
0:48:22 But he still walked away with potentially tens of millions of dollars and got away with it.
0:48:22 He didn’t go to prison.
0:48:25 And so did you see that one?
0:48:26 I didn’t see that one.
0:48:31 No, the kind of the ICO kids with Lambo’s version of it.
0:48:33 I just hate them so much that it’s such a turn off.
0:48:35 I can’t bring myself to watch it turn off.
0:48:42 But when it’s like this kind of ideological rebel person who you know, like more like more
0:48:47 selfless, I need kind of like a maybe evil, maybe genius.
0:48:48 It’s hard to say.
0:48:52 Is he just misunderstood or actually is he just playing all of us?
0:48:56 Like that’s really kind of the sweet spot for me with the crypto crime stuff.
0:48:59 Like crypto can basically have its own true crime like index, right?
0:49:02 Because there’s been so many, so many issues.
0:49:06 I don’t like the like 18 year old like tick tock, tick tock NFT.
0:49:07 Yeah, because that’s just a great scam.
0:49:09 And that story is so easy.
0:49:10 There’s no art to that.
0:49:13 Yeah, there’s no, yeah.
0:49:19 Like the sandbag with three free thing is so interesting because not only is he like an enigma
0:49:22 and like it’s like he looks the part, but then he doesn’t.
0:49:24 And then he did something crazy.
0:49:27 But it’s unclear why he did it because he actually had a business
0:49:30 that would have made him a billionaire many times over.
0:49:35 That was like the scam with FTX wasn’t that the demand and the customers were fake.
0:49:37 The demand of the customers were real.
0:49:40 It’s just that he took the customer money and gambled on it.
0:49:45 You know, used it for crazy donations to build power and to put in his hedge fund to like
0:49:48 run up the run up the balance on that side.
0:49:50 It was just an unnecessary risk.
0:49:52 And so the fascinating thing about that one is like, why?
0:49:54 Why did this guy even do that?
0:49:55 He didn’t need to do that.
0:50:00 He won. He had the real win and he snatched defeat from the jaws of victory in that case.
0:50:07 How about if I told you three years ago when SPF was still, we still thought he was legit,
0:50:10 that him and Diddy are in prison together.
0:50:14 Like, isn’t that the craziest sort of events?
0:50:17 It’s really insane.
0:50:19 Like Diddy and SPF are like.
0:50:23 Have you ever told the SPF FTX story with Milk Road?
0:50:24 What happened?
0:50:27 How they advertised with you and they were late to pay?
0:50:29 No, no, no, they weren’t late to pay.
0:50:34 They, we used to do something called deep dives, which is basically like if
0:50:37 one of our like sort of ad products was, if you pay us a ton of money,
0:50:39 we will do a report on you.
0:50:42 But the catch was we’re going to do the report we actually want to do.
0:50:44 Like you don’t get to say what we say in the report.
0:50:46 And with FTX is like a no brainer.
0:50:48 They’re like the richest player and there’s a bunch of good things to say.
0:50:49 So it seemed like it was going to be a win-win.
0:50:53 And so they, they do the, they pay us a bunch of money or they told us they’re going to pay us
0:50:56 a bunch of money and then we go write the report in it in the report.
0:51:01 You know, I’m trying to, this was, I think I was writing it myself or me and Ben were writing.
0:51:04 I don’t remember exactly what the case was, but I was involved with it.
0:51:07 And I remember we were thinking about, okay, like what’s the devil’s advocate?
0:51:09 Like what doesn’t smell right about this?
0:51:14 Because you have to have the counterpoint and not even just a rip on them.
0:51:21 But having a counterpoint makes acknowledging the counterpoint honestly makes the point stronger.
0:51:25 So even if we were trying to say like a positive thing, which was that they were super fast growing
0:51:29 and they had this really like, you know, aggressive marketing strategy that was working,
0:51:32 like all that shit, we’re like, what’s the counterpoint?
0:51:36 And the counterpoint was like, the guy we had met who was like the chief security officer,
0:51:40 who was like 24 years old or not security, a chief strategy officer who’s 24 years old.
0:51:42 And we were like, wow, that’s so impressive.
0:51:45 Like how did this kid become like chief strategy officer of this like at that time,
0:51:47 it’s like a $20 billion company.
0:51:48 And we’re like, oh wow.
0:51:49 Exactly where the story is going.
0:51:54 And so we were like, yeah, actually like a lot of the like execs are kind of like young,
0:51:55 just like the friends.
0:51:57 But okay, Facebook looked that way too early on.
0:52:00 You know, okay, interesting, maybe a good thing, maybe a bad thing.
0:52:03 And then we were like, yeah, it’s unclear the like connection between Alameda,
0:52:05 they’re like Hedge Fund and FTX.
0:52:06 And so we wrote that in there.
0:52:10 We were like, one thing that’s not clear is like, what is the relationship between these two parties?
0:52:12 And where is there, is there a firewall?
0:52:16 And there’s some speculation that like, you know, it wasn’t that Alameda was just like,
0:52:18 the FTX was just siphoning the money and giving it to Alameda.
0:52:20 And then Alameda was gambling and losing it.
0:52:24 It was that Alameda had, you know, like insider info and they were front running.
0:52:25 That’s kind of what people thought.
0:52:27 So we wrote that in there, like, hey, we need you to take that out.
0:52:29 We’re like, no, we’re not going to take that out.
0:52:33 And they’re like, okay, then just hold on this.
0:52:35 And we’re like, cool, but you paid us already.
0:52:37 So what, you know, do you want to ever run this?
0:52:39 And then they just never replied again.
0:52:42 And we were like, okay, I think they paid us like half of the amount.
0:52:43 Was it a large sum?
0:52:46 I mean, I don’t know what it was, not that, not that large.
0:52:49 Like in the grand scheme of things, not that large, but like at the time for us,
0:52:52 we were starting up, it was like, you know, great to have revenue.
0:52:53 And so that was awesome.
0:52:56 And so I remember them just being like checking in every few months.
0:53:00 Like, hey, what, like, are you ready for us to release this yet or no?
0:53:00 And they’re like, no.
0:53:04 I’m like, okay, didn’t think too much of it, moved on with our life.
0:53:08 And then sure enough that, hey, this connection is sort of unclear.
0:53:10 And, you know, there’s some potential issues that turned out to be like,
0:53:13 it’s like, oh no, that’s stage four.
0:53:15 That turned out to be a very, very big problem actually.
0:53:17 And is SPF like in prison?
0:53:18 How’s he holding up?
0:53:20 Is he still eating just peanut butter?
0:53:22 And that is the whole thing.
0:53:25 Like he only consumes peanut butter in person because he’s a vegan.
0:53:26 Sentenced to 25 years.
0:53:30 But I do think there was like, there was, I think, he sent us to 25 years,
0:53:32 but I don’t think he’s going to serve that whole time.
0:53:33 I don’t know how the whole system works.
0:53:37 Well, no, if you, if you get, for federal crimes, you know, a lot of,
0:53:41 like the, a lot of people say like, oh, you got since 20, you’re only going to do 10.
0:53:45 Well, for federal crimes, I think the max amount it can ever get reduced is
0:53:46 10 or 15%.
0:53:47 I mean, maybe 10%.
0:53:50 So if you get sentenced to 20, you’re just serving 18.
0:53:50 There’s something like that.
0:53:53 It’s like a fucking huge deal.
0:53:59 Like this is like, yeah, this is not like a, and I think the prison he’s at
0:54:01 is like, it’s, it’s, it’s big boy prison.
0:54:04 Like this is not like particularly a fun thing.
0:54:05 Right.
0:54:08 Like there’s this like idea of like a white color.
0:54:12 I talked to, I know a guy or a guy whose uncle got sentenced to a white color crime
0:54:14 and he served 18 years.
0:54:18 And he was like, he told me he would visit his uncle and he was like, yeah,
0:54:22 I mean, it was, when you say the word white collar crime, you kind of think
0:54:27 like it’s cushy and like it was kind of that, but like it’s prison.
0:54:29 Like that’s, and bad stuff would happen.
0:54:32 And like you’re confined all the time.
0:54:34 Like it’s, it’s, it’s really bad.
0:54:37 And I don’t think SPF is, is in that type of like prison anyway.
0:54:39 He’s in like a real prison.
0:54:39 Right.
0:54:40 Like a prison.
0:54:41 He’s not built for that.
0:54:41 Yeah.
0:54:45 Do you, have you ever watched this show the night of?
0:54:46 No, what’s that?
0:54:48 Oh dude, amazing show.
0:54:52 I think it’s on Showtime or HBO the night of it’s just an awesome show.
0:54:56 And one of the things that I really liked about it is they showed almost like,
0:54:59 they showed the actual legal system at work.
0:55:04 And it’s almost like painful to watch the whole legal and prison system
0:55:07 as the story plays out, but they don’t fast forward.
0:55:10 The way a lot of movies and shows do is they kind of fast forward.
0:55:11 It’s like, there’s the crime.
0:55:15 And then there’s like the courtroom where it’s like one lawyer is giving one dramatic speech
0:55:16 and the other lawyer is giving another dramatic speech.
0:55:20 Whereas this one, it actually shows like the real deal Holyfield of,
0:55:24 of, well, we have the, the first, first hearing.
0:55:25 Okay.
0:55:27 The appeal is going to be in three months and he’s back to jail for three months.
0:55:31 And he’s waiting, waiting, waiting and just going through it.
0:55:34 And it’s just extremely well made, an awesome show to watch.
0:55:35 It takes forever.
0:55:38 The stuff takes forever, which like kind of boggles my mind a little bit about why.
0:55:40 And then, and then you could push things for a long time.
0:55:43 So you remember Elizabeth Holmes when she got in trouble.
0:55:46 I think it was like many years after the actual stuff went down that the trial actually happened.
0:55:48 Well, she went on maternity leave from prison.
0:55:52 Remember she started having babies and she just had two babies back to back and kept pushing it off.
0:55:55 That’s what happens when you wear Ralph Lauren and look like you live in Connecticut.
0:55:59 You, you, you could take maternity leave from prison.
0:56:03 I think that’s what the perks, she took advantage of that privilege.
0:56:06 We didn’t mean to make this the Bitcoin episode, but
0:56:09 an hour has flown by.
0:56:12 Once you said the magic word, I was in.
0:56:15 So I’m happy that it, that it became that, to be honest.
0:56:17 All right. That’s it. That’s a problem.
0:56:19 I feel like I can rule the world.
0:56:25 I know I could be what I want to put my all in it like no days off on the road.
0:56:27 Let’s travel never looking back.