AI transcript
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0:01:16 Here’s an oldie but a goodie from the archives from the SideHustle show, Greatest Hits Collection.
0:01:20 In this episode, you’re going to meet Jennifer Marks from JenniferMaker.com.
0:01:31 She started the site in the DIY or crafting niche in late 2016 and went from earning $33 that first month to six figures and beyond every month today.
0:01:37 Stick around in this episode to hear how Jennifer found her initial traction and what drives traffic today,
0:01:42 how the site makes money, and how she’s built an email list that’s almost the population of Cleveland.
0:01:47 Big thanks to Debbie Gartner from TheFlooringGirl.com and episode 362 for the intro.
0:01:52 When you hit up SideHustleNation.com slash Jennifer, you’ll find links to all the resources mentioned.
0:01:56 I’ll be back with my top takeaways from this chat with Jennifer after the interview.
0:01:57 Ready?
0:01:58 Let’s do it.
0:02:09 So, I had a blog just to share recipes and crafts with my daughter, so to sort of put something out there.
0:02:12 And it had started because I found Pinterest.
0:02:15 It’s like a beta tester for Pinterest, and I saw all these amazing projects.
0:02:18 And I’m like, ooh, I could do that, and I could do that.
0:02:19 And I wanted to be a part of it.
0:02:20 Nothing more.
0:02:21 It was just for fun.
0:02:25 And so, we had this little blog that we would do occasional projects on.
0:02:27 That was mostly it.
0:02:31 I just sort of seeded a couple things out into Pinterest and then went on my merry way.
0:02:38 And I had a couple other blogs, not dissimilar from that, really just these are my fun projects to do.
0:02:43 And just because I love to test things, I’m a very curious kind of person.
0:02:48 One day, I’d put Google AdSense on one of these blogs just to see what would happen.
0:02:49 I forgot about it.
0:02:54 And a year later, I got a check from Google, direct deposit for $100.
0:02:56 And I’m like, well, what is this for?
0:02:59 Yeah, you got to hit that $100 threshold before they’ll pay you.
0:03:00 Right.
0:03:01 I’m like, what?
0:03:04 And this came at a time when we were dead broke.
0:03:07 So, I noticed $100 hitting my bank account.
0:03:08 I normally wouldn’t have.
0:03:13 And it was actually the perfect time for this to happen because I was at a crossroads.
0:03:17 My business was essentially failing, sad as that is to say.
0:03:21 And I was finding it very, very difficult to support my family.
0:03:22 It was becoming a crisis.
0:03:24 And I was losing a lot of sleep over it.
0:03:29 And I was trying to decide, do I go out and get a job in corporate America, a place I’ve never worked in before?
0:03:33 I’ve always been a do my own thing kind of person.
0:03:36 Or do I figure something else out?
0:03:39 And I get this $100 and I’m like, well, what do you know?
0:03:41 I put no effort into this.
0:03:42 And here it is.
0:03:43 And it was a sign.
0:03:50 And so, I went and I dusted off that genuine, it was called Genuine Mom, because I’m Jennifer, starts with a J, get it, Genuine Mom.
0:03:51 It was so silly.
0:03:53 And I dusted it off.
0:04:01 And I’m like, I’m going to turn this into a real thing and put actual effort into this and see what I can do by actually working at it, like with intention.
0:04:04 And that was October 2016.
0:04:10 And I attempted to monetize right away, of course, with affiliate income and Google AdSense.
0:04:13 Those were my two monetization attempts.
0:04:18 And yeah, it was like $30 or something that first month, which I actually think was pretty good, believe it or not.
0:04:22 Yeah, it’s probably more than, definitely more than I’ve made in my first years of blogging.
0:04:24 So, so good on that.
0:04:39 That’s an interesting decision to be broke and looking for ways to make extra money in the near term and saying a blog is my ticket, because in my experience, it’s such a long, slow road to get there.
0:04:41 So, what gave you the confidence to say, like, this is going to be it?
0:04:42 I didn’t.
0:04:46 I didn’t assume that it would get me there at any time soon.
0:04:51 I could tell that having put this Google AdSense on a year ago, that this was something that was going to take a while.
0:04:53 So, this wasn’t the only thing I did.
0:04:57 But I also joined Upwork, and I went and reached out to my friends to ask them if they needed help with anything.
0:05:00 So, this was one of my irons in the fire.
0:05:04 It’s just the one that turned out to be amazing and awesome.
0:05:06 What was the business you were running at the time?
0:05:15 So, for the 20 years prior to that, I was running a travel guidebook, a print travel guidebook business, and they were all books about Disney.
0:05:17 Disney World, Disney Cruise Line, and so on.
0:05:19 It actually did pretty well.
0:05:23 When I think back on it, it did amazingly well, considering what I was up against.
0:05:25 Which is mainstream publishing.
0:05:27 But it was print.
0:05:33 And the way that people got their information about travel changed drastically in those 20 years.
0:05:39 And I never really made the change well from print to online.
0:05:40 All right.
0:05:43 So, Genuine Mom becomes JenniferMaker.com.
0:05:48 $33 in that first month from advertising, from affiliate sales, from an Etsy product.
0:05:57 When you’re jumping in here, are you at all concerned that there are a million and one craft blogs, mom blogs, DIY blogs?
0:05:59 Like, how are you going to stand out in that space?
0:06:02 I’m curious, what goes through your head?
0:06:04 Because these are concerns that I’ve had.
0:06:06 Like, well, does the world need another entrepreneurship podcast?
0:06:09 Or, you know, stuff like the head games that we can play?
0:06:10 Yes.
0:06:11 We can always say that.
0:06:13 But there’s always one of us.
0:06:15 And we always have a unique voice and something to offer.
0:06:19 And one of the advantages to being, I’m now 51.
0:06:28 I was 47, I guess, at the time right before my birthday, is that I have learned it is never literally too late to ever start anything.
0:06:31 And I’m never behind, and I can always do that.
0:06:34 I did, at the time, be like, okay, there’s so many people.
0:06:36 This space seems very crowded.
0:06:39 But I didn’t doubt that I could stand out.
0:06:40 I really didn’t.
0:06:45 And I knew that I, because, perhaps because of my years of experience, I knew that I could bring something unique and helpful.
0:06:47 And I know how to teach.
0:06:50 And I just was fearless about it, I think.
0:06:51 I’m like, I don’t care.
0:06:52 It’s fine.
0:06:53 Well, I think that’s an important point.
0:06:55 It’s like, this is not your first attempt.
0:06:58 I see a lot of people like, I’m going to start this blog.
0:07:00 And then no experience writing, for one.
0:07:02 No experience with websites.
0:07:10 And it’s like, there’s a huge learning curve that comes to all of that stuff, in addition to all the business side of it and the SEO side.
0:07:12 It’s a very complicated business.
0:07:13 On the surface, very simple.
0:07:14 Like, hey, put ads up, make money.
0:07:16 Behind the scenes, very complicated.
0:07:19 But important to point out, not your first rodeo there.
0:07:28 What do you think attributed to any initial traction or, like, maybe what did the first few months in terms of traffic look like?
0:07:30 Was it a hit right out of the gate?
0:07:31 No, of course not.
0:07:32 Is it ever?
0:07:36 I’ve heard of this, but I think those are urban legends.
0:07:39 I’m looking at the income reports and I’m like, I don’t know.
0:07:40 This is like a huge operation.
0:07:43 No, it wasn’t at all.
0:07:46 And like everybody, I was toiling in obscurity and no one could find me.
0:07:52 And I wasn’t okay with that at all because I love it when people can see my stuff and I love reaching people.
0:07:55 That’s what, like, really gets me going and gets me excited.
0:07:59 So I started learning all of the ways to reach people.
0:08:02 And for a craft blog, one of the big ways is Pinterest.
0:08:05 Pinterest is very visual, just like what we do.
0:08:08 So I learned everything I possibly could about Pinterest.
0:08:10 And I just deep dived into that.
0:08:16 I’m not embarrassed to admit that I probably spent six hours a day on Pinterest trying to understand it better,
0:08:18 trying to figure out how I could gain traction there.
0:08:22 And then when I had a good foothold, I moved to Facebook.
0:08:31 And I went specifically to Facebook groups where the people that I wanted to be in my orbit were hanging out.
0:08:34 And I don’t mean other bloggers at all.
0:08:35 I don’t mean other people in the business world.
0:08:41 I mean crafters, specifically doing the kind of crafts that I did, it was interested in.
0:08:45 I joined those groups, I was active, I contributed, I answered questions.
0:08:51 And when it was appropriate, and with permission from the admins, I shared my projects in the group.
0:08:55 And those are the two main ways that I got traction in the very beginning.
0:08:59 And my traffic was maybe 1,000 page views.
0:09:03 And by the fourth month, I think I’d made it to 10,000 page views.
0:09:05 And that was all from Pinterest and Facebook groups.
0:09:10 Okay, going where your target readers, target customers already are.
0:09:11 Absolutely.
0:09:13 That’s really, really important.
0:09:17 You have to get yourself out in front of them for them to find you.
0:09:18 They will not find you on their own.
0:09:20 You need to be where they are.
0:09:25 I know Pinterest has undergone some pretty significant changes in the past few years.
0:09:33 Do you have a sense or some advice on what’s working on Pinterest today, if I’m maybe not as a visual niche?
0:09:34 That’s a really good question.
0:09:39 So when I started Pinterest, it was right after a major upheaval.
0:09:44 And for my perspective, Pinterest has been the same this whole time.
0:09:46 I hear people say things.
0:09:48 I hear Pinterest themselves say things.
0:09:49 Back in the good old days.
0:09:49 Yes.
0:09:51 Like I didn’t have it back in the good old days.
0:09:53 To me, it’s been this way this whole time.
0:09:56 You have to make amazing things that attract attention.
0:10:00 And if you’re not in a visual niche like I am, because I could just use pictures of my crafts.
0:10:02 It’s really quite easy for me.
0:10:05 You can still stand out with amazing graphics.
0:10:11 So you might have to work a little harder, put a little more effort in to make those graphics pop and be visual.
0:10:16 And you might have to figure out what it is that people on Pinterest are looking for.
0:10:17 It might not be what you think it is.
0:10:20 So it might take more effort.
0:10:25 But absolutely, I’ve seen a lot of people outside of the craft niche do really well in Pinterest.
0:10:27 But it needs to be intentional.
0:10:32 You can’t just put a few links up there and expect the traffic to beat your door down.
0:10:37 So I’m on Pinterest.com slash Genuine Mom.
0:10:38 Again, Genuine with a J.
0:10:42 7.9 million monthly viewers.
0:10:43 Obviously a huge traffic driver for you.
0:10:47 Can you touch on your pinning strategy to the extent?
0:10:48 Sure.
0:10:49 Absolutely.
0:10:53 So I do what I call launching of my pins.
0:11:00 So when I make a new tutorial, which is my particular content strategy, is I do how-to posts.
0:11:05 I immediately, before I even release it, I create the pin image that we have that from the start.
0:11:16 And I pin it on Pinterest to a very specific board that I feel its keyword matches the keyword that I’m striving for.
0:11:23 So if, for example, I’m doing a Cricut project, Cricut is a cutting machine that I, one of my niches, my sub-niches, I should say.
0:11:33 I post that on my Cricut board to make sure that it has the specific keyword right off the very bat to tell Pinterest what this key, what this pin is about.
0:11:38 And then I tell, of course, my entire community about my new post.
0:11:39 I usually do it right away.
0:11:40 I try to time it.
0:11:44 Like through email, through social, through everything.
0:11:46 Absolutely, through everything.
0:11:47 YouTube, too.
0:11:50 I try to time it so we have a big influx, right?
0:11:54 In my blog post, I ask people, hey, if you like this, pin this.
0:12:05 And I tell them to pin it to their favorite DIY and craft boards, specifically so that those boards that they’re putting my pin onto also have a keyword.
0:12:11 And all those keywords are sending signals to Pinterest about what this pin is about.
0:12:27 And then I strategically send my pin to other boards that I have created or group boards that are have the same keyword or something that’s related to it over a period of time so that it gets out there and it gets accumulated with those keywords.
0:12:30 And we’re all on the same page about what this is about.
0:12:35 And so then it actually gets delivered to people when they search for that thing.
0:12:37 That is my strategy in a nutshell.
0:12:38 No, that’s really helpful.
0:12:43 So, Pinterest, as a search engine, much more than it is a social network.
0:12:44 And so you’re sending…
0:12:44 Oh, yes.
0:12:46 It’s not a social network.
0:12:48 It’s a discovery engine, yes.
0:12:49 Yeah, sending all these signals.
0:12:53 Okay, here is what this image, here’s what this content is about.
0:13:10 They can, you know, obviously read the existing metadata, but you’re kind of crowdsourcing that wisdom and saying, well, if all these other people are also pinning it to boards with these keywords and on these topics, like, okay, that makes sense how it can kind of rise to the top for those Cricut-related keywords.
0:13:13 And so I see examples of your boards.
0:13:17 So Cricut Projects, Best Home and Garden Hacks, DIY Home Decor.
0:13:21 So these are all kind of your kind of primary boards.
0:13:22 Exactly.
0:13:24 Are group boards still a thing for you?
0:13:26 They certainly are.
0:13:27 I get that question all the time.
0:13:28 Absolutely.
0:13:29 But only certain ones.
0:13:33 Only the ones that are very specifically keyworded to what I do.
0:13:35 So not the big ones, the free-for-all ones.
0:13:37 Those are trash.
0:13:39 No offense to anyone out there.
0:13:44 The ones, though, that my other Cricut blogger friends, they have group boards on Cricut Projects.
0:13:45 Absolutely.
0:13:45 Those are great.
0:13:46 That sort of thing.
0:13:48 Gotcha, gotcha.
0:13:48 Okay.
0:13:54 Do you have a sense of the percentage of stuff that you’re pinning that is your own versus other people’s content?
0:13:57 At this point, I mostly only pin my own.
0:13:58 And it has made no difference.
0:14:15 So in the beginning, when you’re first trying to get established, getting other people’s popular pins pinned, so long as they have similar keywords to yours, is really important to sending signals to Pinterest that you are an awesome pinner and they should pay attention to you.
0:14:25 But at this point, my Pinterest account is very well-established, and I will mostly only pin when I’m trying to help a friend out or something just because I’m so very busy.
0:14:30 So at this point, it’s just my pins, and it doesn’t really make any difference.
0:14:31 And Pinterest has told us that.
0:14:32 Sure, sure.
0:14:43 So if I’m not new on Pinterest, but my account is kind of languishing, I could boost up the perceived authority of my boards by finding really popular content.
0:14:45 Popular pins in your niche.
0:14:46 Yes, exactly.
0:14:47 All right.
0:14:49 I’m looking into the Pinterest side here.
0:14:51 I’ll add another follower to your millions here.
0:14:53 Well, thank you.
0:15:01 More with Jennifer in just a moment, including the content upgrade strategy that exploded her email list and ultimately her earnings right after this.
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0:17:35 Okay, so Pinterest is a big traffic driver driving a lot of visitors to, like you called it, how-to content, like tutorial content, how to build a specific craft or how to do a specific project.
0:17:41 Once someone lands on the site, they learn how to do the thing.
0:17:46 They, I assume, can affiliate link out to the materials that they’re going to need for this project.
0:17:50 What else happens on the site that makes you money?
0:17:55 Well, I actually think of my blog posts as a funnel to my mailing list.
0:18:00 My big goal in everything I do is to get people onto my mailing list.
0:18:10 I don’t put a lot of faith in social media, like I use it, but at any time, Facebook or YouTube or whatever could say, hey, no go.
0:18:15 So every blog post that I put out is typically it’s a how-to.
0:18:16 If it’s not, it’s something very similar.
0:18:20 And I funnel them to my lead magnets.
0:18:23 And my lead magnets are very high quality.
0:18:30 Typically, you can’t do the project without having my pattern or whatever it is that I’m giving away totally free.
0:18:34 But it is something that another person might actually charge for.
0:18:40 So it’s something valuable and necessary to do the thing that I am teaching people how to do.
0:18:43 So all the teaching is in the blog post or the video.
0:18:47 But to actually do exactly what I’m showing you how to do, you want to get onto my mailing list.
0:18:49 Yes, there’s affiliate links in there.
0:18:51 Yes, there’s a little bit of advertising.
0:18:54 I’ve been actually decreasing that as I grow.
0:18:57 But mostly, it’s to get onto my mailing list.
0:19:01 And from my mailing list, then I nurture them.
0:19:04 I don’t like just like, hey, you want to buy this stuff?
0:19:08 I try to talk to them about me, find out about them.
0:19:09 I invite them to email me back.
0:19:14 And we build or attempt to build trust between us, right?
0:19:15 So that they feel good about me.
0:19:18 And I offer lots of awesome things free.
0:19:24 And when I feel it’s appropriate, then I say, hey, I have an e-book that might help you with what you’re struggling with.
0:19:25 Or I have a course.
0:19:28 And that is basically what I do.
0:19:29 Okay.
0:19:34 Is there a lead magnet on just about every new post that comes out?
0:19:35 Yes.
0:19:35 Yes.
0:19:37 So I have many.
0:19:37 Okay.
0:19:39 I have probably over 300.
0:19:41 300 lead magnets?
0:19:41 Yes.
0:19:44 Because most of them are patterns to make my crafts.
0:19:45 Okay.
0:19:49 So this stuff you’re going to be creating for yourself anyways to do the projects.
0:19:50 You’re like, well, I might as well.
0:19:50 Actually, no.
0:19:51 No.
0:19:53 In the beginning, these were projects for myself.
0:20:01 But then I learned that if I created projects for them that I saw them asking for in Facebook groups, things were much better.
0:20:04 And I got much more attention and traffic.
0:20:07 So almost nothing I make at this point is for myself.
0:20:09 It’s for them.
0:20:09 Okay.
0:20:15 So I’m on how to use vinyl stencils to paint wood signs perfectly.
0:20:27 And if I go, which is a very niche topic in itself, and if I go down to the bottom, the lead magnet here is get my free customized wood sign vinyl stencils, templates, and cut files.
0:20:28 Exactly.
0:20:35 So they can make that exact sign, and all they have to do is download it, unzip it, upload it, and send it to their Cricut or other cutting machine.
0:20:36 It doesn’t have to be a Cricut.
0:20:41 And they can make the exact same thing that I see in the picture.
0:20:42 Okay.
0:20:47 I used to be so much better at this, like creating post-specific lead magnets.
0:20:49 I’ve kind of gotten away from it, but I like this a lot.
0:20:50 Yeah.
0:20:56 So I actually think of the thing that I want to give away first, and then I create a tutorial explaining how to do it.
0:21:04 So I kind of reverse it because, again, my goal is to get them into my orbit, and to me, that means onto my mailing list because mailing list is gold.
0:21:05 Right.
0:21:07 Especially for Pinterest traffic.
0:21:09 It’s so click here, click on.
0:21:12 It’s very, I don’t want to say temporary, but it’s kind of fickle.
0:21:15 And so it’s like unless you can capture that person, they might not see you again.
0:21:15 Right.
0:21:17 If I could convert everybody, I would.
0:21:18 Of course, we don’t.
0:21:19 That’s not the reality of it.
0:21:22 But I try to convert as many of them as I can.
0:21:24 How many have you signed up so far?
0:21:26 375,000.
0:21:28 375,000 people.
0:21:29 Isn’t that awesome?
0:21:30 That’s crazy.
0:21:32 See, I really do make it a focus.
0:21:33 It’s really huge.
0:21:35 And that’s powered by ConvertKit?
0:21:38 It is powered by ConvertKit, which I love.
0:21:39 I think ConvertKit’s amazing.
0:21:40 Yeah.
0:21:46 You have specific welcome sequences for all these different categories, I guess?
0:21:49 Like somebody’s interested in these vinyl, stencil, painted wood signs?
0:21:50 Yes.
0:21:52 So not that specific, no.
0:21:58 So I have one for Cricut crafts specifically, and I have one for craft room organizations.
0:21:59 So I have two.
0:22:03 Well, and I also teach a little bit about how to blog, just a little bit.
0:22:06 And of course, those people don’t usually care about crafting.
0:22:07 So I guess there’s a third.
0:22:10 So I have those three.
0:22:14 And so depending on where they come in, they go on to a welcome sequence that’s just about that.
0:22:20 And then along the way, I ask them questions about what they’re interested in, and they might move around a little bit.
0:22:25 I have lots of tagging and lots of rules and automations going in ConvertKit.
0:22:25 Okay.
0:22:27 So they can click a link in the email.
0:22:28 It’ll add a tag.
0:22:30 Oh, they raised their hand.
0:22:31 They’re interested in this other thing.
0:22:32 Exactly.
0:22:34 Or they can say, hey, I don’t want to hear about this anymore.
0:22:41 Those are liberally sprinkled all throughout my email so that I make sure that I’ve tagged someone with what they’re actually interested in.
0:22:49 So there’s no point to talking to them about crafting if they actually want to learn about how to organize their room or something like that.
0:22:57 Is there an end to the funnel, like an ultimate, buy my $1,000, I’ll teach you how to do every craft in the planet course?
0:22:58 I don’t have that.
0:22:59 Okay.
0:23:01 So we’re working at our product ladder.
0:23:06 Being only three and a half years old, we’re still kind of, there’s still missing parts.
0:23:09 I didn’t expect to grow so fast, so quickly.
0:23:12 And I’m learning as we go how to do this.
0:23:19 So our top tier is a course that is how to actually design your own cut files,
0:23:20 their own SVG cut files.
0:23:23 But that’s not really part of our funnel at this point.
0:23:24 It’s not evergreen.
0:23:26 We actually open it for enrollment twice a year.
0:23:29 So it doesn’t really work that way yet.
0:23:30 But one day it will.
0:23:37 One day we will happily and merrily lead people from just joining us and getting all of our awesome free stuff
0:23:49 to learning how to use their cutting machines or whatever it is that we’re teaching to, like, an e-book and then an intermediate course and then a more in-depth course that’s, you know, hands-on, that sort of thing.
0:23:51 We’re just not quite there yet.
0:23:52 But it’s going to be amazing when we are.
0:23:53 Yeah.
0:23:56 I love this piece about learn as you go.
0:23:58 And that’s kind of the stage that we’re all in.
0:24:00 So I appreciate you sharing that.
0:24:10 It sounds like there’s the ad revenue from the site, which you said you’re scaling back, the affiliate relationships, your own products.
0:24:13 Do you have a sense of how those break down in the revenue pie?
0:24:15 Or is there another piece of it?
0:24:15 Yes.
0:24:25 I would say I think I did it recently and it was about 5% for affiliates, 5% for advertising, and all the rest for products.
0:24:27 Products are amazing.
0:24:28 Oh, wow.
0:24:29 Yes.
0:24:30 So almost all of it.
0:24:35 And our advertising revenue is nothing to sneeze at.
0:24:39 I mean, in December, we made over $40,000 in advertising on Mediavine.
0:24:42 So it’s not insignificant at all.
0:24:57 And I’m okay scaling that back because I’m at least experimenting with it to see if having less ads on our site will allow people to stay longer or we get more traffic or we’re just able to keep them and convert them more.
0:25:02 Because that really is the ultimate goal, not advertising or not even affiliates.
0:25:09 It’s really products and having them in my orbit and being able to make a difference in their life.
0:25:13 Because you mentioned the course, what other products are out there that you’ve made?
0:25:18 So I have an e-book called Cricket Coach Playbook, which is $19.
0:25:22 And I have another one called Cricket Shortcuts, which is very new, $15.
0:25:27 And then I have another e-book on Craftroom Organization.
0:25:30 So they’re all very low-cost e-books.
0:25:40 And then I have my course, which ranges from $249 to $359, depending on which tier you get.
0:25:43 And again, that only opens twice a year.
0:25:45 And we’re missing that middle piece.
0:25:46 And we’re working on that.
0:25:57 So it’s kind of a big jump there when, unfortunately, we have people getting the e-book, being very happy, wanting more, and then enrolling in this course that it really isn’t right for them.
0:26:00 Because they don’t really need to learn how to make design things.
0:26:02 They really need something in the middle.
0:26:05 So we’re excited to make this.
0:26:07 But it’s kind of funny we’re having to backtrack.
0:26:08 It’s okay.
0:26:08 We grow.
0:26:09 It’s okay.
0:26:21 I’m just thinking of something along the lines of to try and replicate this in a different niche and, like, piggybacking on the Cricket or whatever tool happens to be in your space.
0:26:27 It seems like a lot of the content and keywords are driven by, like, okay, I have this thing.
0:26:28 Like, what can I do with it?
0:26:29 How do I use it better?
0:26:34 And there’s this whole niche economy around this thing.
0:26:35 And I’m curious.
0:26:35 Okay.
0:26:36 The gear starts spinning.
0:26:37 Like, what could I pivot that to?
0:26:40 What’s the equivalent in your niche if you’re tuning in?
0:26:43 There’s a lot of different directions that you can go.
0:26:44 Absolutely.
0:26:46 I think many niches have something like this.
0:26:54 And people have this thing or they’re thinking about getting this thing and they have legitimate questions and they need real help to figure it out.
0:26:54 Instant Pot.
0:26:58 There are many communities around the Instant Pot.
0:27:01 Peloton bike in the fitness niche, right?
0:27:02 Like, how do I use this thing?
0:27:03 How do I actually make it work?
0:27:10 If you look, you will discover that there are whole little micro communities around these popular products.
0:27:15 And in a way, they’re very popular and they have big audiences.
0:27:18 And in a way, you’re kind of piggybacking on their audience, right?
0:27:20 I don’t mean to sound like you’re, like, stealing it.
0:27:21 It’s not like that.
0:27:23 There is a community right there.
0:27:25 They’re eager for help and information.
0:27:33 And if you can provide it and actually, you know, be of service to them, you will rise with them as well.
0:27:34 Yeah, absolutely.
0:27:42 We see mostly in the software space of like, okay, I’m an early adopter of Asana or Pipedrive or any number of different software tools.
0:27:45 I’m going to create some content around how to do that.
0:27:46 People are going to hire me as a consultant.
0:27:50 I’m going to build the course around how to use this for some specific business model.
0:27:53 But here’s an example of how to do it with a physical product.
0:27:54 With a physical thing.
0:27:55 Yeah, absolutely.
0:27:57 Okay.
0:27:58 What else on the content front?
0:28:05 So primarily written tutorial content or are you doing video stuff for every post that goes out there?
0:28:06 What else is going on on the content side?
0:28:07 Right.
0:28:09 So we have step-by-step tutorials.
0:28:11 They’re now printable, which is pretty awesome.
0:28:16 And at this point, every tutorial has a video that goes with it.
0:28:19 A full-length step-by-step video.
0:28:23 They’re usually 20 to 40 minutes long and they’re on YouTube.
0:28:32 What’s really interesting about that is I thought I was just doing this as another service for my readers to help them because they were asking for it.
0:28:36 But it turns out that YouTube is a whole community unto itself.
0:28:48 And when we went onto YouTube and did our very best job, showed up and did amazing, we are actually getting more traffic and discovering new people through YouTube now than we are, say, through Pinterest.
0:28:50 So this has been huge.
0:28:51 YouTube has been huge for us.
0:28:57 And that’s why we are now putting out a video with every project, which is not easy, by the way.
0:29:00 It’s a lot of work, but it’s so rewarding.
0:29:04 In fact, one of the things I do every year is I don’t have a good name for it.
0:29:05 It’s like a content blast.
0:29:07 I think maybe there might be names for this.
0:29:08 I don’t know.
0:29:09 I just sort of made this up.
0:29:16 But each month when my keyword is most popular for me, that’s December, I put out a new project.
0:29:20 So a new post and a new video every day for that month.
0:29:22 It’s grueling, hard work.
0:29:34 But because that’s when my keyword trends and Google Trends specifically, it’s where I look, I am just carpet bombing YouTube and Facebook, my mailing list, my Facebook groups, everything.
0:29:36 Are you able to batch that stuff at all?
0:29:38 Or is it like literally every night, like filming and editing?
0:29:39 Oh, yes.
0:29:41 It’s every night because I’m not a batcher.
0:29:44 Oh, I wish I was.
0:29:47 We’re working on that, though, because clearly I cannot scale that up.
0:29:49 So that’s a separate conversation.
0:29:52 But, yes, I am up every night until 6 a.m. working on that in December.
0:29:55 This is how dedicated I am.
0:29:57 It takes a lot of dedication to do that.
0:30:01 But it’s so, what it does is it levels us up each time I’ve done it.
0:30:02 This is the third year I’ve done it now.
0:30:05 In the beginning it was just tutorials and then I added the video.
0:30:13 And each time I’ve done it, it’s like increase my traffic and my revenue by three to five times.
0:30:14 And it stays there.
0:30:16 So it’s like a little stair step.
0:30:18 It’s pretty amazing.
0:30:21 I highly recommend that folks try it.
0:30:23 But if you can batch it, it’s better so you don’t go insane.
0:30:26 All the work that goes into that elusive passive income.
0:30:28 But I appreciate you sharing that, too.
0:30:31 When did you start in earnest on YouTube?
0:30:34 December 1st, 2018.
0:30:36 A year and three months.
0:30:43 And to have 225,000 subscribers clearly hit a missing pain point.
0:30:45 Like I said, we showed up with intention.
0:30:47 Or I did.
0:30:48 It was just me back then.
0:30:49 Yeah.
0:30:53 So outside of those content blasts, is there a routine publishing schedule?
0:30:54 Yes.
0:30:57 So I try to get something amazing out once a week.
0:30:59 And we try to do that on the weekend.
0:31:00 And it’s a post.
0:31:02 And it’s a video tutorial.
0:31:04 And it’s a lead magnet.
0:31:06 Always those three things.
0:31:07 And I try to get it on the weekend.
0:31:10 Because that’s when my audience is doing stuff.
0:31:11 Not surprisingly.
0:31:13 That’s our regular schedule.
0:31:14 Okay.
0:31:14 That makes sense.
0:31:15 Only once a week.
0:31:20 Just because it’s difficult to do that high quality work on a more regular basis.
0:31:23 But my goal is to build an amazing content machine.
0:31:28 And one day, we will have amazing content every day of the year.
0:31:34 Free pattern and a step-by-step tutorial and an amazing video.
0:31:36 And it’s going to be awesome.
0:31:39 It sounds like you already have a pretty amazing content machine.
0:31:41 But every day, can you imagine?
0:31:44 And what I do, content is very important.
0:31:46 Yes, I could totally just coast at this point.
0:31:47 I absolutely could.
0:31:53 But I see the effect that good content, not good content, excellent content has on our business.
0:31:59 And I know that getting more content out there is going to help us reach our goal,
0:32:01 which is quite audacious.
0:32:03 So we need to work very hard.
0:32:06 How do you keep coming up with new content ideas?
0:32:08 Oh, that’s actually very easy.
0:32:10 The more I niche down, the easier it gets.
0:32:12 My audience tells me what they want.
0:32:14 So I have a very active Facebook group.
0:32:15 They’re awesome.
0:32:20 We have 110,000, 15,000 people in there.
0:32:20 Wow.
0:32:22 I ask them all the time what they’re interested in.
0:32:23 I do polls.
0:32:23 They tell me.
0:32:26 They say, hey, Jennifer, will you show us how to make this thing?
0:32:27 It’s very easy.
0:32:30 I have so many projects lined up, I can’t even get them all up.
0:32:32 Okay, so doing one a day would not be a problem.
0:32:33 Not at all.
0:32:34 Nope.
0:32:35 It would be great.
0:32:40 Are people finding the Facebook group through your email list?
0:32:41 Hey, by the way, we have a Facebook group.
0:32:44 Are they finding it organically through Facebook?
0:32:46 Is it linked from the blog?
0:32:46 Like what’s the-
0:32:47 All of the above.
0:32:48 All of the above.
0:32:51 So yes, some people just find us, stumble across us.
0:32:53 At the end of every video, I say, hey, do you have questions?
0:32:56 Come on over to our awesome Facebook group and we’d be happy to help you.
0:33:00 I encourage people to share photos of their projects in our Facebook group.
0:33:05 And when they join my welcome sequence, I invite them to come in and get some help and
0:33:06 get to know us.
0:33:10 So all the places I can think of, I do that there.
0:33:12 Is it just Jennifer Maker or does it have a different name?
0:33:13 I have three.
0:33:17 The biggest one, the one that is, the cricket related one is called Cricket Crafters and
0:33:19 Makers hosted by Jennifer Maker.
0:33:20 All right.
0:33:21 We’ll link that up in the show notes.
0:33:23 117,000 members here.
0:33:23 Wow.
0:33:26 A thousand posts a day in here.
0:33:28 It’s very active, which is great.
0:33:34 Yes, it’s endless content, but how are you moderating that or do you have to?
0:33:36 Can you even do it at a thousand posts a day?
0:33:41 Jennifer’s response coming up right after this, plus her plans for the future of the brand.
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0:35:52 That’s a good point.
0:35:54 There’s some things that we can’t do.
0:36:01 So while I have only been in blogging for three and a half years, I have been online since the mid-90s.
0:36:02 I was a beta tester for the World Wide Web.
0:36:06 No online community is a stranger to me.
0:36:11 And I was teaching people back in the America Online days how to actually build online communities.
0:36:21 And I feel very strongly about this, that if you set the tone and you are present in your community and you show your members how to behave, they will follow suit.
0:36:30 And I actually have always, because of this, been blessed with communities that are relatively well-behaved, awesome contributing members.
0:36:33 Yes, of course, you’re always going to have your trolls and stuff.
0:36:36 But really, we don’t have a lot of issues.
0:36:38 Just the little stuff here and there.
0:36:40 This is a really important thing.
0:36:43 When you’re there and you’re present, and I don’t mean you’re spending all your time in your group.
0:36:44 That’s not what I suggest at all.
0:36:45 You have things to do.
0:36:52 But when you’re there and you’re setting the tone by being positive, and it truly makes a difference.
0:36:54 Yeah, I found the same thing.
0:37:03 It’s like most people are pretty well-behaved, but it’s just at a certain number, it just becomes a little daunting to manage, especially at all hours of the day.
0:37:04 But I do have moderators.
0:37:07 I have volunteer moderators, but I also have employees.
0:37:11 And we have a schedule, and we’re always checking so that we can get right on top of things.
0:37:14 What’s your team look like today?
0:37:18 So today, there are 15 employees, which is amazing.
0:37:21 And we have a regular rotation through our group.
0:37:25 So I don’t know exactly how many, because I’m not the one who manages my team.
0:37:28 I have an amazing operations director who actually does that for me.
0:37:33 Thankfully, because I would be no good at this, I am a visionary type.
0:37:35 I’m not really a manager type.
0:37:41 But we all communicate in Slack, which is an amazing tool, by the way, for team communication.
0:37:44 And they’re excellent.
0:37:46 I’m very, very pleased with my team.
0:37:47 What was your first hire?
0:37:50 It was my operations director.
0:37:51 Only I hired her as an assistant.
0:37:54 And I will tell you, it was not easy.
0:38:03 I procrastinated it for months because I was so worried that I was going to pick someone, and I was going to be a bad boss, or that person was going to let me down, or it was just going to be a disaster, right?
0:38:05 I mean, I’m sure you’ve heard this before.
0:38:12 But eventually, when I put out one of my products, and I was getting so many emails, and I could not keep up with it, I had no choice.
0:38:14 I had to bite the bullet and go looking for someone.
0:38:21 I went out into my own community to look for someone who hopefully was drinking the Jennifer Maker Kool-Aid already, and I found her.
0:38:24 So she’s been with me for a year and a half now.
0:38:26 And she’s become my operations director.
0:38:29 And she now hires and trains the other team members.
0:38:30 Oh, wow.
0:38:31 That’s awesome.
0:38:32 Yeah, it is awesome.
0:38:34 Yeah, I’ve heard that from other people as well.
0:38:37 Higher from within your audience.
0:38:41 Because they’re already, they know who you are and what you do, and they already believe in what it is.
0:38:43 So it’s working really well.
0:38:45 All of our team members have come from our community.
0:38:48 So you’re very much the name, the face of the brand.
0:38:50 You’re in front of the camera on all the videos and stuff.
0:38:55 Is that the bulk of your time today, is like producing the stuff, producing the content?
0:39:06 Yes, I’m still in the trenches creating the content, which is difficult when you need to scale up, which is what we need to do, which is why I mentioned the content machine that we are working in.
0:39:19 But I plan to stay here, at least as the face and the voice of Jennifer Maker for the time being, because we know this is working for us, and I am happy to do so.
0:39:26 But I need to keep it at the bare minimum, so that I can actually lead our company to success.
0:39:32 It’s very difficult, I believe, to both create the content and be its leader at some point.
0:39:34 In the beginning, that’s what we all have to do.
0:39:43 But at some point, you need to, especially when there’s a team, I have to be able to actually spend time doing things that aren’t making a tutorial or a design.
0:39:58 So we now have designers, and we’re interviewing people to be sort of a manager, over-encompassing the design team, and a whole process for creating the video and editing the video and all that.
0:40:09 So at some point, it’ll just be me going to my studio for the day to record my videos, introducing projects that I have approved, and doing some voiceovers.
0:40:16 And other people will take all of that raw data and put that into something like what we have now.
0:40:17 That’s our goal.
0:40:24 Yeah, show up, everything is ready for you, hit record, and you can do your thing, and then everything else is handled afterwards.
0:40:31 And even you’ve seen, like in the financial space, like Dave Ramsey understands he’s not going to live forever, but he wants his brand to live on.
0:40:35 So he’s bringing on other Dave Ramsey experts.
0:40:36 It’s similar, right?
0:40:37 Yes, and that is my goal.
0:40:40 I would like Jennifer Maker to live on beyond me.
0:40:46 So at some point, there will be other people who come in and then eventually take over as the face.
0:40:49 At some point, you know, I mean, I’m 51 years old, and I don’t want to be working forever.
0:40:52 That doesn’t sound like any fun.
0:40:58 So that is my goal, like Betty Crocker, although she’s fictional, but you know what it means.
0:40:59 Yes, she lives on.
0:41:08 Was there anything else that, you know, any specific tactic that you feel was a big inflection point?
0:41:16 And you’ve mentioned a ton of different things over the course of this conversation, but anything that we haven’t touched on yet that really attributed to some traffic or revenue growth?
0:41:19 Well, the thing that comes to mind I’ve already mentioned, which is my mailing list.
0:41:25 By focusing on my mailing list from almost the beginning, I would say it was month four.
0:41:30 I really feel that has been the biggest thing that has made a difference for me.
0:41:32 I can’t stress that enough.
0:41:37 When I first started blogging and I heard people out there saying, oh, you have to have a mailing list.
0:41:39 I was like, oh, give me a break.
0:41:40 That is so 90s.
0:41:41 I am not starting a mailing list.
0:41:43 I really thought this.
0:41:45 But I heard it so many times.
0:41:46 I’m like, okay, okay, I get it.
0:41:50 And so I began focusing on it and it started growing.
0:41:52 And at first I’m like, oh, my goodness, I just have all these people.
0:41:56 Like, it’s just costing me money and I’m not actually doing anything with it.
0:41:58 I wasn’t okay with that.
0:42:00 I decided, well, I need to do something.
0:42:05 And that became my motivation was I have 5,000 people on my list.
0:42:06 That’s awesome.
0:42:10 But I need to actually make something with this happen.
0:42:13 And that’s when I began nurturing that list.
0:42:15 So, like, talking to them.
0:42:18 And I don’t mean, like, with fancy graphics and stuff.
0:42:22 I, like, just send letters to them as if they’re my neighbor or my sister.
0:42:29 And I tell them about what’s going on in my projects so that they feel like they know who I am.
0:42:30 I’m trying to.
0:42:37 I’m trying to share me and what’s going on so that I can relate to them and they can see me as a normal person, which I totally am.
0:42:41 I’m just very driven and creative at the same time, right?
0:42:45 And so that I can then actually say, hey, you know, I have this cool project.
0:42:47 You should actually try it, right?
0:42:48 That’s my goal.
0:42:51 I’m not actually even trying to get them to buy things in the beginning.
0:42:55 I’m trying to get them into to drink the Jennifer Maker Kool-Aid.
0:42:57 That’s all I can think, right?
0:43:03 It’s to get them to trust me and try making projects and realize that this is something that they can do.
0:43:05 And then they’re super fans.
0:43:07 Yeah, it’s very similar.
0:43:10 We just recorded with Rosemary Groner for the fourth time.
0:43:12 I love Rosemary.
0:43:13 Very similar.
0:43:18 Like, you know, her emails are really long, storytelling, relationship-building emails.
0:43:24 But then there’s like this quick tip or call to action or a quick win that she delivers.
0:43:25 Again, the same goal.
0:43:30 Like, how do we get them drinking the busy budget or Kool-Aid so they keep coming back?
0:43:34 Like, I’m going to stand out from all the clutter if I can deliver these kind of quick wins.
0:43:36 And it sounds like it’s really similar here.
0:43:37 It is very similar.
0:43:43 I found Rosemary in the very beginning and I read every email she sends.
0:43:49 Because I also learned just by watching people, which I think all of us should be.
0:43:53 And when you find someone that is doing a great job, get on their mailing list.
0:43:54 See what they’re doing.
0:43:55 Go to their groups.
0:43:56 Don’t copy them.
0:44:01 But look at what they’re doing and see how you can make that work in your space.
0:44:04 Because I, even today, I read one of her emails.
0:44:06 I’m like, Rosemary, you’re awesome.
0:44:08 She is.
0:44:11 I’m totally a Rosemary fangirl.
0:44:12 You and me both.
0:44:15 You mentioned the daily content.
0:44:18 What else is on the horizon for this year?
0:44:23 For this year, our big goal is that content machine I mentioned.
0:44:26 So getting the pieces of it put into place.
0:44:32 So finding that video editor, finding someone to help me assemble projects on video so that
0:44:35 we have something that is consistent every time.
0:44:38 And it’s not me because it’s very time consuming to do.
0:44:45 So our goal is that by December 1st of 2020, all of our projects, all of our videos are all
0:44:45 ready to go.
0:44:49 And Jennifer doesn’t go nuts trying to stay up till 6 a.m.
0:44:49 making them.
0:44:55 And once we have that in place, it’s going to be a matter of finding awesome new people
0:44:58 and training them and putting them into our awesome content machine.
0:45:00 And then we can wrap things up.
0:45:01 Cool.
0:45:03 Ramp things up even more than they already have.
0:45:03 I love it.
0:45:07 Jennifer, thank you so much for joining me.
0:45:10 You can find her at jennifermaker.com.
0:45:15 We’ll link up all the social channels as well for you in the show notes for this episode.
0:45:19 But let’s wrap this thing up with your number one tip for Side Hustle Nation.
0:45:25 I really think that a lot of the problems that people have getting traction in the beginning
0:45:29 is that they’re really not out there promoting themselves and their content enough.
0:45:33 And they get stuck and they don’t get far enough and then they give up.
0:45:38 And so getting out to where your people are, finding them wherever that may be.
0:45:44 And so my people are on Pinterest and Facebook groups and YouTube, which took some time to move
0:45:50 up to, but your people might be on LinkedIn or they might be, they might even be on Reddit.
0:45:52 I know that’s a little tricky, but they are out there.
0:45:54 You have to figure out where they are.
0:46:01 You need to get into their spaces and understand them and be a part of that community.
0:46:07 Just trying to do a thing and hope that someone finds you is not going to work.
0:46:15 You really need to get where they are and be part of it for your content and the services
0:46:19 that you offer to actually be noticed and appreciated.
0:46:22 Yes, absolutely.
0:46:24 Figure out where your people are, go there.
0:46:26 I had one more question I forgot to ask.
0:46:33 And that was if there was a point, you know, maybe several months into this effort where you’re
0:46:39 like, this isn’t working, this is not seeing the results or on the flip side, like an inflection
0:46:41 point where all of a sudden everything clicked.
0:46:42 Both.
0:46:42 Yes.
0:46:49 So about six months into my blog, I found myself sort of losing momentum.
0:46:54 I think it had been like three weeks since I posted and I could see that if I continued
0:46:57 down this path, it would just peter out.
0:47:01 And I had to stop and say, how bad do I want this?
0:47:05 Am I going to allow it to peter out or am I going to actually work at this and put what
0:47:06 is required into it?
0:47:12 And obviously, I redoubled my efforts and that was the last time I had that.
0:47:14 It was just a matter of life.
0:47:15 Life gets in the way sometimes.
0:47:17 That was the last time though.
0:47:21 I decided that this isn’t something that I just do when I had free time.
0:47:25 I made it a priority and that changed everything as far as that goes.
0:47:33 And as far as when things clicked, they clicked about one year in when I offered my first course,
0:47:39 which is my design course, which was a suggestion from my community, which I didn’t think that
0:47:40 they would actually want.
0:47:42 I thought it was too complicated, but they said they wanted it.
0:47:50 So I created a course for them and I made enough that month to take care of the problems that
0:47:52 I was having supporting my family.
0:47:58 And that’s when I realized that this is something that I could do exclusively and I can let the
0:48:00 other things that I’ve been doing to support my family go.
0:48:08 And that was truly a magical moment because I love what I do, but I also love taking care
0:48:09 of my family.
0:48:11 And now I could do both together.
0:48:12 I love it.
0:48:13 Well, thank you for sharing that, Jennifer.
0:48:15 Once again, jennifermaker.com.
0:48:18 Thank you so much for joining me and we’ll catch up soon.
0:48:21 All right.
0:48:22 My top three takeaways from this call with Jennifer.
0:48:26 Number one is that email is still a priority.
0:48:31 This is admittedly something I’ve kind of taken my eye off the ball with over the last couple
0:48:36 of years, but Jennifer’s comments and Rosemary’s comments from a few weeks ago are making
0:48:38 me rethink it in a serious way.
0:48:43 I’ve been taking a look at both of their sites to see how they have these content upgrades
0:48:48 or lead magnets woven organically into their content, where it really seems like a value
0:48:52 add and not a frustrating like, oh, hey, why are you withholding this information from me?
0:48:55 That’s probably a fine line, but they both seem to do it really well.
0:49:00 And the second part of that is what do you do with someone’s email after you have it?
0:49:04 First off, obviously you deliver what you promised, but then what next?
0:49:09 So I’m rethinking my welcome sequences, which are a few years old at this point, relatively
0:49:10 unchanged.
0:49:13 And so that’s something that’s definitely on my project list.
0:49:14 So that’s takeaway number one.
0:49:17 Email is still a big, big priority for any online business.
0:49:20 Takeaway number two for me is to learn as you go.
0:49:25 Now, I think having worked online for years certainly helped shortcut Jennifer’s learning
0:49:28 curve for this new business, but there was still a lot to overcome.
0:49:34 And I personally found her attitude super inspiring, kind of like whatever challenge or barrier to
0:49:37 the next level is, I can figure that out.
0:49:38 I can figure it out.
0:49:40 And her comment at the end, how bad do you want it?
0:49:45 Actually, one interesting side note is I’ve been reading The Power of Full Engagement, which
0:49:47 was recommended by Noah Kagan.
0:49:53 And it talks about this idea of sprint and recovery, of stress and rest, and how you actually need
0:49:54 both to grow.
0:49:58 So I heard some echoes of that when Jennifer talked about her content blasts, like I’m
0:50:00 going to do a video every day for 30 days.
0:50:05 Those obviously being the sprint phases, but you can’t sprint all the time.
0:50:07 That’s a recipe for major burnout.
0:50:10 So instead, ask yourself the questions.
0:50:11 Can you learn as you go?
0:50:15 You probably don’t need to know the full three to five year plan down the road.
0:50:17 It’s probably impossible to predict anyway.
0:50:21 And then are you mapping out appropriate sprint and recovery times?
0:50:23 I thought that was a really powerful idea.
0:50:26 And takeaway number three for me was the idea of piggybacking.
0:50:30 This was something that definitely stood out in our call, how Jennifer piggybacked on the
0:50:33 popularity of the Cricut crafting machine.
0:50:37 I’m still not entirely sure what this thing does, but it’s also important to note that I
0:50:38 don’t have to.
0:50:39 I’m not her target market.
0:50:43 There are plenty of niches that are big enough to build, as you’ve seen, a really substantial
0:50:44 business.
0:50:50 So the question is, is there a tool or product or software that you could similarly piggyback
0:50:51 on and create content about?
0:50:54 That way you’re not having to create demand.
0:50:59 You’re just answering questions and providing content for a tribe that already exists.
0:51:01 And I think that’s a much easier path.
0:51:05 I hope this call got your creative gears turning because it certainly did for me.
0:51:10 Once again, if you hit up side hustle nation.com slash Jennifer, you’ll find links to all the
0:51:10 resources mentioned.
0:51:12 That is it for me.
0:51:14 Thank you so much for tuning in until next time.
0:51:16 Let’s go out there and make something happen.
0:51:19 And I’ll catch you in the next edition of the side hustle show.
0:51:20 I’ll see you then.
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0:01:16 Here’s an oldie but a goodie from the archives from the SideHustle show, Greatest Hits Collection.
0:01:20 In this episode, you’re going to meet Jennifer Marks from JenniferMaker.com.
0:01:31 She started the site in the DIY or crafting niche in late 2016 and went from earning $33 that first month to six figures and beyond every month today.
0:01:37 Stick around in this episode to hear how Jennifer found her initial traction and what drives traffic today,
0:01:42 how the site makes money, and how she’s built an email list that’s almost the population of Cleveland.
0:01:47 Big thanks to Debbie Gartner from TheFlooringGirl.com and episode 362 for the intro.
0:01:52 When you hit up SideHustleNation.com slash Jennifer, you’ll find links to all the resources mentioned.
0:01:56 I’ll be back with my top takeaways from this chat with Jennifer after the interview.
0:01:57 Ready?
0:01:58 Let’s do it.
0:02:09 So, I had a blog just to share recipes and crafts with my daughter, so to sort of put something out there.
0:02:12 And it had started because I found Pinterest.
0:02:15 It’s like a beta tester for Pinterest, and I saw all these amazing projects.
0:02:18 And I’m like, ooh, I could do that, and I could do that.
0:02:19 And I wanted to be a part of it.
0:02:20 Nothing more.
0:02:21 It was just for fun.
0:02:25 And so, we had this little blog that we would do occasional projects on.
0:02:27 That was mostly it.
0:02:31 I just sort of seeded a couple things out into Pinterest and then went on my merry way.
0:02:38 And I had a couple other blogs, not dissimilar from that, really just these are my fun projects to do.
0:02:43 And just because I love to test things, I’m a very curious kind of person.
0:02:48 One day, I’d put Google AdSense on one of these blogs just to see what would happen.
0:02:49 I forgot about it.
0:02:54 And a year later, I got a check from Google, direct deposit for $100.
0:02:56 And I’m like, well, what is this for?
0:02:59 Yeah, you got to hit that $100 threshold before they’ll pay you.
0:03:00 Right.
0:03:01 I’m like, what?
0:03:04 And this came at a time when we were dead broke.
0:03:07 So, I noticed $100 hitting my bank account.
0:03:08 I normally wouldn’t have.
0:03:13 And it was actually the perfect time for this to happen because I was at a crossroads.
0:03:17 My business was essentially failing, sad as that is to say.
0:03:21 And I was finding it very, very difficult to support my family.
0:03:22 It was becoming a crisis.
0:03:24 And I was losing a lot of sleep over it.
0:03:29 And I was trying to decide, do I go out and get a job in corporate America, a place I’ve never worked in before?
0:03:33 I’ve always been a do my own thing kind of person.
0:03:36 Or do I figure something else out?
0:03:39 And I get this $100 and I’m like, well, what do you know?
0:03:41 I put no effort into this.
0:03:42 And here it is.
0:03:43 And it was a sign.
0:03:50 And so, I went and I dusted off that genuine, it was called Genuine Mom, because I’m Jennifer, starts with a J, get it, Genuine Mom.
0:03:51 It was so silly.
0:03:53 And I dusted it off.
0:04:01 And I’m like, I’m going to turn this into a real thing and put actual effort into this and see what I can do by actually working at it, like with intention.
0:04:04 And that was October 2016.
0:04:10 And I attempted to monetize right away, of course, with affiliate income and Google AdSense.
0:04:13 Those were my two monetization attempts.
0:04:18 And yeah, it was like $30 or something that first month, which I actually think was pretty good, believe it or not.
0:04:22 Yeah, it’s probably more than, definitely more than I’ve made in my first years of blogging.
0:04:24 So, so good on that.
0:04:39 That’s an interesting decision to be broke and looking for ways to make extra money in the near term and saying a blog is my ticket, because in my experience, it’s such a long, slow road to get there.
0:04:41 So, what gave you the confidence to say, like, this is going to be it?
0:04:42 I didn’t.
0:04:46 I didn’t assume that it would get me there at any time soon.
0:04:51 I could tell that having put this Google AdSense on a year ago, that this was something that was going to take a while.
0:04:53 So, this wasn’t the only thing I did.
0:04:57 But I also joined Upwork, and I went and reached out to my friends to ask them if they needed help with anything.
0:05:00 So, this was one of my irons in the fire.
0:05:04 It’s just the one that turned out to be amazing and awesome.
0:05:06 What was the business you were running at the time?
0:05:15 So, for the 20 years prior to that, I was running a travel guidebook, a print travel guidebook business, and they were all books about Disney.
0:05:17 Disney World, Disney Cruise Line, and so on.
0:05:19 It actually did pretty well.
0:05:23 When I think back on it, it did amazingly well, considering what I was up against.
0:05:25 Which is mainstream publishing.
0:05:27 But it was print.
0:05:33 And the way that people got their information about travel changed drastically in those 20 years.
0:05:39 And I never really made the change well from print to online.
0:05:40 All right.
0:05:43 So, Genuine Mom becomes JenniferMaker.com.
0:05:48 $33 in that first month from advertising, from affiliate sales, from an Etsy product.
0:05:57 When you’re jumping in here, are you at all concerned that there are a million and one craft blogs, mom blogs, DIY blogs?
0:05:59 Like, how are you going to stand out in that space?
0:06:02 I’m curious, what goes through your head?
0:06:04 Because these are concerns that I’ve had.
0:06:06 Like, well, does the world need another entrepreneurship podcast?
0:06:09 Or, you know, stuff like the head games that we can play?
0:06:10 Yes.
0:06:11 We can always say that.
0:06:13 But there’s always one of us.
0:06:15 And we always have a unique voice and something to offer.
0:06:19 And one of the advantages to being, I’m now 51.
0:06:28 I was 47, I guess, at the time right before my birthday, is that I have learned it is never literally too late to ever start anything.
0:06:31 And I’m never behind, and I can always do that.
0:06:34 I did, at the time, be like, okay, there’s so many people.
0:06:36 This space seems very crowded.
0:06:39 But I didn’t doubt that I could stand out.
0:06:40 I really didn’t.
0:06:45 And I knew that I, because, perhaps because of my years of experience, I knew that I could bring something unique and helpful.
0:06:47 And I know how to teach.
0:06:50 And I just was fearless about it, I think.
0:06:51 I’m like, I don’t care.
0:06:52 It’s fine.
0:06:53 Well, I think that’s an important point.
0:06:55 It’s like, this is not your first attempt.
0:06:58 I see a lot of people like, I’m going to start this blog.
0:07:00 And then no experience writing, for one.
0:07:02 No experience with websites.
0:07:10 And it’s like, there’s a huge learning curve that comes to all of that stuff, in addition to all the business side of it and the SEO side.
0:07:12 It’s a very complicated business.
0:07:13 On the surface, very simple.
0:07:14 Like, hey, put ads up, make money.
0:07:16 Behind the scenes, very complicated.
0:07:19 But important to point out, not your first rodeo there.
0:07:28 What do you think attributed to any initial traction or, like, maybe what did the first few months in terms of traffic look like?
0:07:30 Was it a hit right out of the gate?
0:07:31 No, of course not.
0:07:32 Is it ever?
0:07:36 I’ve heard of this, but I think those are urban legends.
0:07:39 I’m looking at the income reports and I’m like, I don’t know.
0:07:40 This is like a huge operation.
0:07:43 No, it wasn’t at all.
0:07:46 And like everybody, I was toiling in obscurity and no one could find me.
0:07:52 And I wasn’t okay with that at all because I love it when people can see my stuff and I love reaching people.
0:07:55 That’s what, like, really gets me going and gets me excited.
0:07:59 So I started learning all of the ways to reach people.
0:08:02 And for a craft blog, one of the big ways is Pinterest.
0:08:05 Pinterest is very visual, just like what we do.
0:08:08 So I learned everything I possibly could about Pinterest.
0:08:10 And I just deep dived into that.
0:08:16 I’m not embarrassed to admit that I probably spent six hours a day on Pinterest trying to understand it better,
0:08:18 trying to figure out how I could gain traction there.
0:08:22 And then when I had a good foothold, I moved to Facebook.
0:08:31 And I went specifically to Facebook groups where the people that I wanted to be in my orbit were hanging out.
0:08:34 And I don’t mean other bloggers at all.
0:08:35 I don’t mean other people in the business world.
0:08:41 I mean crafters, specifically doing the kind of crafts that I did, it was interested in.
0:08:45 I joined those groups, I was active, I contributed, I answered questions.
0:08:51 And when it was appropriate, and with permission from the admins, I shared my projects in the group.
0:08:55 And those are the two main ways that I got traction in the very beginning.
0:08:59 And my traffic was maybe 1,000 page views.
0:09:03 And by the fourth month, I think I’d made it to 10,000 page views.
0:09:05 And that was all from Pinterest and Facebook groups.
0:09:10 Okay, going where your target readers, target customers already are.
0:09:11 Absolutely.
0:09:13 That’s really, really important.
0:09:17 You have to get yourself out in front of them for them to find you.
0:09:18 They will not find you on their own.
0:09:20 You need to be where they are.
0:09:25 I know Pinterest has undergone some pretty significant changes in the past few years.
0:09:33 Do you have a sense or some advice on what’s working on Pinterest today, if I’m maybe not as a visual niche?
0:09:34 That’s a really good question.
0:09:39 So when I started Pinterest, it was right after a major upheaval.
0:09:44 And for my perspective, Pinterest has been the same this whole time.
0:09:46 I hear people say things.
0:09:48 I hear Pinterest themselves say things.
0:09:49 Back in the good old days.
0:09:49 Yes.
0:09:51 Like I didn’t have it back in the good old days.
0:09:53 To me, it’s been this way this whole time.
0:09:56 You have to make amazing things that attract attention.
0:10:00 And if you’re not in a visual niche like I am, because I could just use pictures of my crafts.
0:10:02 It’s really quite easy for me.
0:10:05 You can still stand out with amazing graphics.
0:10:11 So you might have to work a little harder, put a little more effort in to make those graphics pop and be visual.
0:10:16 And you might have to figure out what it is that people on Pinterest are looking for.
0:10:17 It might not be what you think it is.
0:10:20 So it might take more effort.
0:10:25 But absolutely, I’ve seen a lot of people outside of the craft niche do really well in Pinterest.
0:10:27 But it needs to be intentional.
0:10:32 You can’t just put a few links up there and expect the traffic to beat your door down.
0:10:37 So I’m on Pinterest.com slash Genuine Mom.
0:10:38 Again, Genuine with a J.
0:10:42 7.9 million monthly viewers.
0:10:43 Obviously a huge traffic driver for you.
0:10:47 Can you touch on your pinning strategy to the extent?
0:10:48 Sure.
0:10:49 Absolutely.
0:10:53 So I do what I call launching of my pins.
0:11:00 So when I make a new tutorial, which is my particular content strategy, is I do how-to posts.
0:11:05 I immediately, before I even release it, I create the pin image that we have that from the start.
0:11:16 And I pin it on Pinterest to a very specific board that I feel its keyword matches the keyword that I’m striving for.
0:11:23 So if, for example, I’m doing a Cricut project, Cricut is a cutting machine that I, one of my niches, my sub-niches, I should say.
0:11:33 I post that on my Cricut board to make sure that it has the specific keyword right off the very bat to tell Pinterest what this key, what this pin is about.
0:11:38 And then I tell, of course, my entire community about my new post.
0:11:39 I usually do it right away.
0:11:40 I try to time it.
0:11:44 Like through email, through social, through everything.
0:11:46 Absolutely, through everything.
0:11:47 YouTube, too.
0:11:50 I try to time it so we have a big influx, right?
0:11:54 In my blog post, I ask people, hey, if you like this, pin this.
0:12:05 And I tell them to pin it to their favorite DIY and craft boards, specifically so that those boards that they’re putting my pin onto also have a keyword.
0:12:11 And all those keywords are sending signals to Pinterest about what this pin is about.
0:12:27 And then I strategically send my pin to other boards that I have created or group boards that are have the same keyword or something that’s related to it over a period of time so that it gets out there and it gets accumulated with those keywords.
0:12:30 And we’re all on the same page about what this is about.
0:12:35 And so then it actually gets delivered to people when they search for that thing.
0:12:37 That is my strategy in a nutshell.
0:12:38 No, that’s really helpful.
0:12:43 So, Pinterest, as a search engine, much more than it is a social network.
0:12:44 And so you’re sending…
0:12:44 Oh, yes.
0:12:46 It’s not a social network.
0:12:48 It’s a discovery engine, yes.
0:12:49 Yeah, sending all these signals.
0:12:53 Okay, here is what this image, here’s what this content is about.
0:13:10 They can, you know, obviously read the existing metadata, but you’re kind of crowdsourcing that wisdom and saying, well, if all these other people are also pinning it to boards with these keywords and on these topics, like, okay, that makes sense how it can kind of rise to the top for those Cricut-related keywords.
0:13:13 And so I see examples of your boards.
0:13:17 So Cricut Projects, Best Home and Garden Hacks, DIY Home Decor.
0:13:21 So these are all kind of your kind of primary boards.
0:13:22 Exactly.
0:13:24 Are group boards still a thing for you?
0:13:26 They certainly are.
0:13:27 I get that question all the time.
0:13:28 Absolutely.
0:13:29 But only certain ones.
0:13:33 Only the ones that are very specifically keyworded to what I do.
0:13:35 So not the big ones, the free-for-all ones.
0:13:37 Those are trash.
0:13:39 No offense to anyone out there.
0:13:44 The ones, though, that my other Cricut blogger friends, they have group boards on Cricut Projects.
0:13:45 Absolutely.
0:13:45 Those are great.
0:13:46 That sort of thing.
0:13:48 Gotcha, gotcha.
0:13:48 Okay.
0:13:54 Do you have a sense of the percentage of stuff that you’re pinning that is your own versus other people’s content?
0:13:57 At this point, I mostly only pin my own.
0:13:58 And it has made no difference.
0:14:15 So in the beginning, when you’re first trying to get established, getting other people’s popular pins pinned, so long as they have similar keywords to yours, is really important to sending signals to Pinterest that you are an awesome pinner and they should pay attention to you.
0:14:25 But at this point, my Pinterest account is very well-established, and I will mostly only pin when I’m trying to help a friend out or something just because I’m so very busy.
0:14:30 So at this point, it’s just my pins, and it doesn’t really make any difference.
0:14:31 And Pinterest has told us that.
0:14:32 Sure, sure.
0:14:43 So if I’m not new on Pinterest, but my account is kind of languishing, I could boost up the perceived authority of my boards by finding really popular content.
0:14:45 Popular pins in your niche.
0:14:46 Yes, exactly.
0:14:47 All right.
0:14:49 I’m looking into the Pinterest side here.
0:14:51 I’ll add another follower to your millions here.
0:14:53 Well, thank you.
0:15:01 More with Jennifer in just a moment, including the content upgrade strategy that exploded her email list and ultimately her earnings right after this.
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0:16:16 One of the tools I’ve personally seen make a huge difference for business owners is Quo, formerly Open Phone.
0:16:20 It’s the same great business phone system you’ve heard me talk about before, just with a new name.
0:16:24 When you’re running a business, you know that every missed call is a missed opportunity.
0:16:30 So Quo, formerly Open Phone, this is the number one business phone system that streamlines your customer communications.
0:16:35 It works through an app on your phone or your computer, so no more using your personal number as your business line.
0:16:37 No more carrying two phones around.
0:16:46 With Quo, your team can share one phone number and collaborate on customer calls and texts, just like a shared inbox, so anybody can jump in to keep response times fast.
0:16:48 And this is where it gets super cool.
0:16:58 You can set up Quo’s built-in AI agent in just a few minutes to handle calls after hours, answer customer questions, and capture leads on autopilot.
0:17:00 I want to invite you to get started for free.
0:17:07 Plus, Side Hustle Show listeners get 20% off your first six months at Quo.com slash Side Hustle.
0:17:11 That’s Q-U-O dot com slash Side Hustle.
0:17:13 Look at them getting that three-letter domain.
0:17:15 Q-U-O dot com slash Side Hustle.
0:17:20 And if you’ve got existing numbers with another service, Quo will port them over at no extra charge.
0:17:23 Quo, no missed calls, no missed customers.
0:17:35 Okay, so Pinterest is a big traffic driver driving a lot of visitors to, like you called it, how-to content, like tutorial content, how to build a specific craft or how to do a specific project.
0:17:41 Once someone lands on the site, they learn how to do the thing.
0:17:46 They, I assume, can affiliate link out to the materials that they’re going to need for this project.
0:17:50 What else happens on the site that makes you money?
0:17:55 Well, I actually think of my blog posts as a funnel to my mailing list.
0:18:00 My big goal in everything I do is to get people onto my mailing list.
0:18:10 I don’t put a lot of faith in social media, like I use it, but at any time, Facebook or YouTube or whatever could say, hey, no go.
0:18:15 So every blog post that I put out is typically it’s a how-to.
0:18:16 If it’s not, it’s something very similar.
0:18:20 And I funnel them to my lead magnets.
0:18:23 And my lead magnets are very high quality.
0:18:30 Typically, you can’t do the project without having my pattern or whatever it is that I’m giving away totally free.
0:18:34 But it is something that another person might actually charge for.
0:18:40 So it’s something valuable and necessary to do the thing that I am teaching people how to do.
0:18:43 So all the teaching is in the blog post or the video.
0:18:47 But to actually do exactly what I’m showing you how to do, you want to get onto my mailing list.
0:18:49 Yes, there’s affiliate links in there.
0:18:51 Yes, there’s a little bit of advertising.
0:18:54 I’ve been actually decreasing that as I grow.
0:18:57 But mostly, it’s to get onto my mailing list.
0:19:01 And from my mailing list, then I nurture them.
0:19:04 I don’t like just like, hey, you want to buy this stuff?
0:19:08 I try to talk to them about me, find out about them.
0:19:09 I invite them to email me back.
0:19:14 And we build or attempt to build trust between us, right?
0:19:15 So that they feel good about me.
0:19:18 And I offer lots of awesome things free.
0:19:24 And when I feel it’s appropriate, then I say, hey, I have an e-book that might help you with what you’re struggling with.
0:19:25 Or I have a course.
0:19:28 And that is basically what I do.
0:19:29 Okay.
0:19:34 Is there a lead magnet on just about every new post that comes out?
0:19:35 Yes.
0:19:35 Yes.
0:19:37 So I have many.
0:19:37 Okay.
0:19:39 I have probably over 300.
0:19:41 300 lead magnets?
0:19:41 Yes.
0:19:44 Because most of them are patterns to make my crafts.
0:19:45 Okay.
0:19:49 So this stuff you’re going to be creating for yourself anyways to do the projects.
0:19:50 You’re like, well, I might as well.
0:19:50 Actually, no.
0:19:51 No.
0:19:53 In the beginning, these were projects for myself.
0:20:01 But then I learned that if I created projects for them that I saw them asking for in Facebook groups, things were much better.
0:20:04 And I got much more attention and traffic.
0:20:07 So almost nothing I make at this point is for myself.
0:20:09 It’s for them.
0:20:09 Okay.
0:20:15 So I’m on how to use vinyl stencils to paint wood signs perfectly.
0:20:27 And if I go, which is a very niche topic in itself, and if I go down to the bottom, the lead magnet here is get my free customized wood sign vinyl stencils, templates, and cut files.
0:20:28 Exactly.
0:20:35 So they can make that exact sign, and all they have to do is download it, unzip it, upload it, and send it to their Cricut or other cutting machine.
0:20:36 It doesn’t have to be a Cricut.
0:20:41 And they can make the exact same thing that I see in the picture.
0:20:42 Okay.
0:20:47 I used to be so much better at this, like creating post-specific lead magnets.
0:20:49 I’ve kind of gotten away from it, but I like this a lot.
0:20:50 Yeah.
0:20:56 So I actually think of the thing that I want to give away first, and then I create a tutorial explaining how to do it.
0:21:04 So I kind of reverse it because, again, my goal is to get them into my orbit, and to me, that means onto my mailing list because mailing list is gold.
0:21:05 Right.
0:21:07 Especially for Pinterest traffic.
0:21:09 It’s so click here, click on.
0:21:12 It’s very, I don’t want to say temporary, but it’s kind of fickle.
0:21:15 And so it’s like unless you can capture that person, they might not see you again.
0:21:15 Right.
0:21:17 If I could convert everybody, I would.
0:21:18 Of course, we don’t.
0:21:19 That’s not the reality of it.
0:21:22 But I try to convert as many of them as I can.
0:21:24 How many have you signed up so far?
0:21:26 375,000.
0:21:28 375,000 people.
0:21:29 Isn’t that awesome?
0:21:30 That’s crazy.
0:21:32 See, I really do make it a focus.
0:21:33 It’s really huge.
0:21:35 And that’s powered by ConvertKit?
0:21:38 It is powered by ConvertKit, which I love.
0:21:39 I think ConvertKit’s amazing.
0:21:40 Yeah.
0:21:46 You have specific welcome sequences for all these different categories, I guess?
0:21:49 Like somebody’s interested in these vinyl, stencil, painted wood signs?
0:21:50 Yes.
0:21:52 So not that specific, no.
0:21:58 So I have one for Cricut crafts specifically, and I have one for craft room organizations.
0:21:59 So I have two.
0:22:03 Well, and I also teach a little bit about how to blog, just a little bit.
0:22:06 And of course, those people don’t usually care about crafting.
0:22:07 So I guess there’s a third.
0:22:10 So I have those three.
0:22:14 And so depending on where they come in, they go on to a welcome sequence that’s just about that.
0:22:20 And then along the way, I ask them questions about what they’re interested in, and they might move around a little bit.
0:22:25 I have lots of tagging and lots of rules and automations going in ConvertKit.
0:22:25 Okay.
0:22:27 So they can click a link in the email.
0:22:28 It’ll add a tag.
0:22:30 Oh, they raised their hand.
0:22:31 They’re interested in this other thing.
0:22:32 Exactly.
0:22:34 Or they can say, hey, I don’t want to hear about this anymore.
0:22:41 Those are liberally sprinkled all throughout my email so that I make sure that I’ve tagged someone with what they’re actually interested in.
0:22:49 So there’s no point to talking to them about crafting if they actually want to learn about how to organize their room or something like that.
0:22:57 Is there an end to the funnel, like an ultimate, buy my $1,000, I’ll teach you how to do every craft in the planet course?
0:22:58 I don’t have that.
0:22:59 Okay.
0:23:01 So we’re working at our product ladder.
0:23:06 Being only three and a half years old, we’re still kind of, there’s still missing parts.
0:23:09 I didn’t expect to grow so fast, so quickly.
0:23:12 And I’m learning as we go how to do this.
0:23:19 So our top tier is a course that is how to actually design your own cut files,
0:23:20 their own SVG cut files.
0:23:23 But that’s not really part of our funnel at this point.
0:23:24 It’s not evergreen.
0:23:26 We actually open it for enrollment twice a year.
0:23:29 So it doesn’t really work that way yet.
0:23:30 But one day it will.
0:23:37 One day we will happily and merrily lead people from just joining us and getting all of our awesome free stuff
0:23:49 to learning how to use their cutting machines or whatever it is that we’re teaching to, like, an e-book and then an intermediate course and then a more in-depth course that’s, you know, hands-on, that sort of thing.
0:23:51 We’re just not quite there yet.
0:23:52 But it’s going to be amazing when we are.
0:23:53 Yeah.
0:23:56 I love this piece about learn as you go.
0:23:58 And that’s kind of the stage that we’re all in.
0:24:00 So I appreciate you sharing that.
0:24:10 It sounds like there’s the ad revenue from the site, which you said you’re scaling back, the affiliate relationships, your own products.
0:24:13 Do you have a sense of how those break down in the revenue pie?
0:24:15 Or is there another piece of it?
0:24:15 Yes.
0:24:25 I would say I think I did it recently and it was about 5% for affiliates, 5% for advertising, and all the rest for products.
0:24:27 Products are amazing.
0:24:28 Oh, wow.
0:24:29 Yes.
0:24:30 So almost all of it.
0:24:35 And our advertising revenue is nothing to sneeze at.
0:24:39 I mean, in December, we made over $40,000 in advertising on Mediavine.
0:24:42 So it’s not insignificant at all.
0:24:57 And I’m okay scaling that back because I’m at least experimenting with it to see if having less ads on our site will allow people to stay longer or we get more traffic or we’re just able to keep them and convert them more.
0:25:02 Because that really is the ultimate goal, not advertising or not even affiliates.
0:25:09 It’s really products and having them in my orbit and being able to make a difference in their life.
0:25:13 Because you mentioned the course, what other products are out there that you’ve made?
0:25:18 So I have an e-book called Cricket Coach Playbook, which is $19.
0:25:22 And I have another one called Cricket Shortcuts, which is very new, $15.
0:25:27 And then I have another e-book on Craftroom Organization.
0:25:30 So they’re all very low-cost e-books.
0:25:40 And then I have my course, which ranges from $249 to $359, depending on which tier you get.
0:25:43 And again, that only opens twice a year.
0:25:45 And we’re missing that middle piece.
0:25:46 And we’re working on that.
0:25:57 So it’s kind of a big jump there when, unfortunately, we have people getting the e-book, being very happy, wanting more, and then enrolling in this course that it really isn’t right for them.
0:26:00 Because they don’t really need to learn how to make design things.
0:26:02 They really need something in the middle.
0:26:05 So we’re excited to make this.
0:26:07 But it’s kind of funny we’re having to backtrack.
0:26:08 It’s okay.
0:26:08 We grow.
0:26:09 It’s okay.
0:26:21 I’m just thinking of something along the lines of to try and replicate this in a different niche and, like, piggybacking on the Cricket or whatever tool happens to be in your space.
0:26:27 It seems like a lot of the content and keywords are driven by, like, okay, I have this thing.
0:26:28 Like, what can I do with it?
0:26:29 How do I use it better?
0:26:34 And there’s this whole niche economy around this thing.
0:26:35 And I’m curious.
0:26:35 Okay.
0:26:36 The gear starts spinning.
0:26:37 Like, what could I pivot that to?
0:26:40 What’s the equivalent in your niche if you’re tuning in?
0:26:43 There’s a lot of different directions that you can go.
0:26:44 Absolutely.
0:26:46 I think many niches have something like this.
0:26:54 And people have this thing or they’re thinking about getting this thing and they have legitimate questions and they need real help to figure it out.
0:26:54 Instant Pot.
0:26:58 There are many communities around the Instant Pot.
0:27:01 Peloton bike in the fitness niche, right?
0:27:02 Like, how do I use this thing?
0:27:03 How do I actually make it work?
0:27:10 If you look, you will discover that there are whole little micro communities around these popular products.
0:27:15 And in a way, they’re very popular and they have big audiences.
0:27:18 And in a way, you’re kind of piggybacking on their audience, right?
0:27:20 I don’t mean to sound like you’re, like, stealing it.
0:27:21 It’s not like that.
0:27:23 There is a community right there.
0:27:25 They’re eager for help and information.
0:27:33 And if you can provide it and actually, you know, be of service to them, you will rise with them as well.
0:27:34 Yeah, absolutely.
0:27:42 We see mostly in the software space of like, okay, I’m an early adopter of Asana or Pipedrive or any number of different software tools.
0:27:45 I’m going to create some content around how to do that.
0:27:46 People are going to hire me as a consultant.
0:27:50 I’m going to build the course around how to use this for some specific business model.
0:27:53 But here’s an example of how to do it with a physical product.
0:27:54 With a physical thing.
0:27:55 Yeah, absolutely.
0:27:57 Okay.
0:27:58 What else on the content front?
0:28:05 So primarily written tutorial content or are you doing video stuff for every post that goes out there?
0:28:06 What else is going on on the content side?
0:28:07 Right.
0:28:09 So we have step-by-step tutorials.
0:28:11 They’re now printable, which is pretty awesome.
0:28:16 And at this point, every tutorial has a video that goes with it.
0:28:19 A full-length step-by-step video.
0:28:23 They’re usually 20 to 40 minutes long and they’re on YouTube.
0:28:32 What’s really interesting about that is I thought I was just doing this as another service for my readers to help them because they were asking for it.
0:28:36 But it turns out that YouTube is a whole community unto itself.
0:28:48 And when we went onto YouTube and did our very best job, showed up and did amazing, we are actually getting more traffic and discovering new people through YouTube now than we are, say, through Pinterest.
0:28:50 So this has been huge.
0:28:51 YouTube has been huge for us.
0:28:57 And that’s why we are now putting out a video with every project, which is not easy, by the way.
0:29:00 It’s a lot of work, but it’s so rewarding.
0:29:04 In fact, one of the things I do every year is I don’t have a good name for it.
0:29:05 It’s like a content blast.
0:29:07 I think maybe there might be names for this.
0:29:08 I don’t know.
0:29:09 I just sort of made this up.
0:29:16 But each month when my keyword is most popular for me, that’s December, I put out a new project.
0:29:20 So a new post and a new video every day for that month.
0:29:22 It’s grueling, hard work.
0:29:34 But because that’s when my keyword trends and Google Trends specifically, it’s where I look, I am just carpet bombing YouTube and Facebook, my mailing list, my Facebook groups, everything.
0:29:36 Are you able to batch that stuff at all?
0:29:38 Or is it like literally every night, like filming and editing?
0:29:39 Oh, yes.
0:29:41 It’s every night because I’m not a batcher.
0:29:44 Oh, I wish I was.
0:29:47 We’re working on that, though, because clearly I cannot scale that up.
0:29:49 So that’s a separate conversation.
0:29:52 But, yes, I am up every night until 6 a.m. working on that in December.
0:29:55 This is how dedicated I am.
0:29:57 It takes a lot of dedication to do that.
0:30:01 But it’s so, what it does is it levels us up each time I’ve done it.
0:30:02 This is the third year I’ve done it now.
0:30:05 In the beginning it was just tutorials and then I added the video.
0:30:13 And each time I’ve done it, it’s like increase my traffic and my revenue by three to five times.
0:30:14 And it stays there.
0:30:16 So it’s like a little stair step.
0:30:18 It’s pretty amazing.
0:30:21 I highly recommend that folks try it.
0:30:23 But if you can batch it, it’s better so you don’t go insane.
0:30:26 All the work that goes into that elusive passive income.
0:30:28 But I appreciate you sharing that, too.
0:30:31 When did you start in earnest on YouTube?
0:30:34 December 1st, 2018.
0:30:36 A year and three months.
0:30:43 And to have 225,000 subscribers clearly hit a missing pain point.
0:30:45 Like I said, we showed up with intention.
0:30:47 Or I did.
0:30:48 It was just me back then.
0:30:49 Yeah.
0:30:53 So outside of those content blasts, is there a routine publishing schedule?
0:30:54 Yes.
0:30:57 So I try to get something amazing out once a week.
0:30:59 And we try to do that on the weekend.
0:31:00 And it’s a post.
0:31:02 And it’s a video tutorial.
0:31:04 And it’s a lead magnet.
0:31:06 Always those three things.
0:31:07 And I try to get it on the weekend.
0:31:10 Because that’s when my audience is doing stuff.
0:31:11 Not surprisingly.
0:31:13 That’s our regular schedule.
0:31:14 Okay.
0:31:14 That makes sense.
0:31:15 Only once a week.
0:31:20 Just because it’s difficult to do that high quality work on a more regular basis.
0:31:23 But my goal is to build an amazing content machine.
0:31:28 And one day, we will have amazing content every day of the year.
0:31:34 Free pattern and a step-by-step tutorial and an amazing video.
0:31:36 And it’s going to be awesome.
0:31:39 It sounds like you already have a pretty amazing content machine.
0:31:41 But every day, can you imagine?
0:31:44 And what I do, content is very important.
0:31:46 Yes, I could totally just coast at this point.
0:31:47 I absolutely could.
0:31:53 But I see the effect that good content, not good content, excellent content has on our business.
0:31:59 And I know that getting more content out there is going to help us reach our goal,
0:32:01 which is quite audacious.
0:32:03 So we need to work very hard.
0:32:06 How do you keep coming up with new content ideas?
0:32:08 Oh, that’s actually very easy.
0:32:10 The more I niche down, the easier it gets.
0:32:12 My audience tells me what they want.
0:32:14 So I have a very active Facebook group.
0:32:15 They’re awesome.
0:32:20 We have 110,000, 15,000 people in there.
0:32:20 Wow.
0:32:22 I ask them all the time what they’re interested in.
0:32:23 I do polls.
0:32:23 They tell me.
0:32:26 They say, hey, Jennifer, will you show us how to make this thing?
0:32:27 It’s very easy.
0:32:30 I have so many projects lined up, I can’t even get them all up.
0:32:32 Okay, so doing one a day would not be a problem.
0:32:33 Not at all.
0:32:34 Nope.
0:32:35 It would be great.
0:32:40 Are people finding the Facebook group through your email list?
0:32:41 Hey, by the way, we have a Facebook group.
0:32:44 Are they finding it organically through Facebook?
0:32:46 Is it linked from the blog?
0:32:46 Like what’s the-
0:32:47 All of the above.
0:32:48 All of the above.
0:32:51 So yes, some people just find us, stumble across us.
0:32:53 At the end of every video, I say, hey, do you have questions?
0:32:56 Come on over to our awesome Facebook group and we’d be happy to help you.
0:33:00 I encourage people to share photos of their projects in our Facebook group.
0:33:05 And when they join my welcome sequence, I invite them to come in and get some help and
0:33:06 get to know us.
0:33:10 So all the places I can think of, I do that there.
0:33:12 Is it just Jennifer Maker or does it have a different name?
0:33:13 I have three.
0:33:17 The biggest one, the one that is, the cricket related one is called Cricket Crafters and
0:33:19 Makers hosted by Jennifer Maker.
0:33:20 All right.
0:33:21 We’ll link that up in the show notes.
0:33:23 117,000 members here.
0:33:23 Wow.
0:33:26 A thousand posts a day in here.
0:33:28 It’s very active, which is great.
0:33:34 Yes, it’s endless content, but how are you moderating that or do you have to?
0:33:36 Can you even do it at a thousand posts a day?
0:33:41 Jennifer’s response coming up right after this, plus her plans for the future of the brand.
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0:35:52 That’s a good point.
0:35:54 There’s some things that we can’t do.
0:36:01 So while I have only been in blogging for three and a half years, I have been online since the mid-90s.
0:36:02 I was a beta tester for the World Wide Web.
0:36:06 No online community is a stranger to me.
0:36:11 And I was teaching people back in the America Online days how to actually build online communities.
0:36:21 And I feel very strongly about this, that if you set the tone and you are present in your community and you show your members how to behave, they will follow suit.
0:36:30 And I actually have always, because of this, been blessed with communities that are relatively well-behaved, awesome contributing members.
0:36:33 Yes, of course, you’re always going to have your trolls and stuff.
0:36:36 But really, we don’t have a lot of issues.
0:36:38 Just the little stuff here and there.
0:36:40 This is a really important thing.
0:36:43 When you’re there and you’re present, and I don’t mean you’re spending all your time in your group.
0:36:44 That’s not what I suggest at all.
0:36:45 You have things to do.
0:36:52 But when you’re there and you’re setting the tone by being positive, and it truly makes a difference.
0:36:54 Yeah, I found the same thing.
0:37:03 It’s like most people are pretty well-behaved, but it’s just at a certain number, it just becomes a little daunting to manage, especially at all hours of the day.
0:37:04 But I do have moderators.
0:37:07 I have volunteer moderators, but I also have employees.
0:37:11 And we have a schedule, and we’re always checking so that we can get right on top of things.
0:37:14 What’s your team look like today?
0:37:18 So today, there are 15 employees, which is amazing.
0:37:21 And we have a regular rotation through our group.
0:37:25 So I don’t know exactly how many, because I’m not the one who manages my team.
0:37:28 I have an amazing operations director who actually does that for me.
0:37:33 Thankfully, because I would be no good at this, I am a visionary type.
0:37:35 I’m not really a manager type.
0:37:41 But we all communicate in Slack, which is an amazing tool, by the way, for team communication.
0:37:44 And they’re excellent.
0:37:46 I’m very, very pleased with my team.
0:37:47 What was your first hire?
0:37:50 It was my operations director.
0:37:51 Only I hired her as an assistant.
0:37:54 And I will tell you, it was not easy.
0:38:03 I procrastinated it for months because I was so worried that I was going to pick someone, and I was going to be a bad boss, or that person was going to let me down, or it was just going to be a disaster, right?
0:38:05 I mean, I’m sure you’ve heard this before.
0:38:12 But eventually, when I put out one of my products, and I was getting so many emails, and I could not keep up with it, I had no choice.
0:38:14 I had to bite the bullet and go looking for someone.
0:38:21 I went out into my own community to look for someone who hopefully was drinking the Jennifer Maker Kool-Aid already, and I found her.
0:38:24 So she’s been with me for a year and a half now.
0:38:26 And she’s become my operations director.
0:38:29 And she now hires and trains the other team members.
0:38:30 Oh, wow.
0:38:31 That’s awesome.
0:38:32 Yeah, it is awesome.
0:38:34 Yeah, I’ve heard that from other people as well.
0:38:37 Higher from within your audience.
0:38:41 Because they’re already, they know who you are and what you do, and they already believe in what it is.
0:38:43 So it’s working really well.
0:38:45 All of our team members have come from our community.
0:38:48 So you’re very much the name, the face of the brand.
0:38:50 You’re in front of the camera on all the videos and stuff.
0:38:55 Is that the bulk of your time today, is like producing the stuff, producing the content?
0:39:06 Yes, I’m still in the trenches creating the content, which is difficult when you need to scale up, which is what we need to do, which is why I mentioned the content machine that we are working in.
0:39:19 But I plan to stay here, at least as the face and the voice of Jennifer Maker for the time being, because we know this is working for us, and I am happy to do so.
0:39:26 But I need to keep it at the bare minimum, so that I can actually lead our company to success.
0:39:32 It’s very difficult, I believe, to both create the content and be its leader at some point.
0:39:34 In the beginning, that’s what we all have to do.
0:39:43 But at some point, you need to, especially when there’s a team, I have to be able to actually spend time doing things that aren’t making a tutorial or a design.
0:39:58 So we now have designers, and we’re interviewing people to be sort of a manager, over-encompassing the design team, and a whole process for creating the video and editing the video and all that.
0:40:09 So at some point, it’ll just be me going to my studio for the day to record my videos, introducing projects that I have approved, and doing some voiceovers.
0:40:16 And other people will take all of that raw data and put that into something like what we have now.
0:40:17 That’s our goal.
0:40:24 Yeah, show up, everything is ready for you, hit record, and you can do your thing, and then everything else is handled afterwards.
0:40:31 And even you’ve seen, like in the financial space, like Dave Ramsey understands he’s not going to live forever, but he wants his brand to live on.
0:40:35 So he’s bringing on other Dave Ramsey experts.
0:40:36 It’s similar, right?
0:40:37 Yes, and that is my goal.
0:40:40 I would like Jennifer Maker to live on beyond me.
0:40:46 So at some point, there will be other people who come in and then eventually take over as the face.
0:40:49 At some point, you know, I mean, I’m 51 years old, and I don’t want to be working forever.
0:40:52 That doesn’t sound like any fun.
0:40:58 So that is my goal, like Betty Crocker, although she’s fictional, but you know what it means.
0:40:59 Yes, she lives on.
0:41:08 Was there anything else that, you know, any specific tactic that you feel was a big inflection point?
0:41:16 And you’ve mentioned a ton of different things over the course of this conversation, but anything that we haven’t touched on yet that really attributed to some traffic or revenue growth?
0:41:19 Well, the thing that comes to mind I’ve already mentioned, which is my mailing list.
0:41:25 By focusing on my mailing list from almost the beginning, I would say it was month four.
0:41:30 I really feel that has been the biggest thing that has made a difference for me.
0:41:32 I can’t stress that enough.
0:41:37 When I first started blogging and I heard people out there saying, oh, you have to have a mailing list.
0:41:39 I was like, oh, give me a break.
0:41:40 That is so 90s.
0:41:41 I am not starting a mailing list.
0:41:43 I really thought this.
0:41:45 But I heard it so many times.
0:41:46 I’m like, okay, okay, I get it.
0:41:50 And so I began focusing on it and it started growing.
0:41:52 And at first I’m like, oh, my goodness, I just have all these people.
0:41:56 Like, it’s just costing me money and I’m not actually doing anything with it.
0:41:58 I wasn’t okay with that.
0:42:00 I decided, well, I need to do something.
0:42:05 And that became my motivation was I have 5,000 people on my list.
0:42:06 That’s awesome.
0:42:10 But I need to actually make something with this happen.
0:42:13 And that’s when I began nurturing that list.
0:42:15 So, like, talking to them.
0:42:18 And I don’t mean, like, with fancy graphics and stuff.
0:42:22 I, like, just send letters to them as if they’re my neighbor or my sister.
0:42:29 And I tell them about what’s going on in my projects so that they feel like they know who I am.
0:42:30 I’m trying to.
0:42:37 I’m trying to share me and what’s going on so that I can relate to them and they can see me as a normal person, which I totally am.
0:42:41 I’m just very driven and creative at the same time, right?
0:42:45 And so that I can then actually say, hey, you know, I have this cool project.
0:42:47 You should actually try it, right?
0:42:48 That’s my goal.
0:42:51 I’m not actually even trying to get them to buy things in the beginning.
0:42:55 I’m trying to get them into to drink the Jennifer Maker Kool-Aid.
0:42:57 That’s all I can think, right?
0:43:03 It’s to get them to trust me and try making projects and realize that this is something that they can do.
0:43:05 And then they’re super fans.
0:43:07 Yeah, it’s very similar.
0:43:10 We just recorded with Rosemary Groner for the fourth time.
0:43:12 I love Rosemary.
0:43:13 Very similar.
0:43:18 Like, you know, her emails are really long, storytelling, relationship-building emails.
0:43:24 But then there’s like this quick tip or call to action or a quick win that she delivers.
0:43:25 Again, the same goal.
0:43:30 Like, how do we get them drinking the busy budget or Kool-Aid so they keep coming back?
0:43:34 Like, I’m going to stand out from all the clutter if I can deliver these kind of quick wins.
0:43:36 And it sounds like it’s really similar here.
0:43:37 It is very similar.
0:43:43 I found Rosemary in the very beginning and I read every email she sends.
0:43:49 Because I also learned just by watching people, which I think all of us should be.
0:43:53 And when you find someone that is doing a great job, get on their mailing list.
0:43:54 See what they’re doing.
0:43:55 Go to their groups.
0:43:56 Don’t copy them.
0:44:01 But look at what they’re doing and see how you can make that work in your space.
0:44:04 Because I, even today, I read one of her emails.
0:44:06 I’m like, Rosemary, you’re awesome.
0:44:08 She is.
0:44:11 I’m totally a Rosemary fangirl.
0:44:12 You and me both.
0:44:15 You mentioned the daily content.
0:44:18 What else is on the horizon for this year?
0:44:23 For this year, our big goal is that content machine I mentioned.
0:44:26 So getting the pieces of it put into place.
0:44:32 So finding that video editor, finding someone to help me assemble projects on video so that
0:44:35 we have something that is consistent every time.
0:44:38 And it’s not me because it’s very time consuming to do.
0:44:45 So our goal is that by December 1st of 2020, all of our projects, all of our videos are all
0:44:45 ready to go.
0:44:49 And Jennifer doesn’t go nuts trying to stay up till 6 a.m.
0:44:49 making them.
0:44:55 And once we have that in place, it’s going to be a matter of finding awesome new people
0:44:58 and training them and putting them into our awesome content machine.
0:45:00 And then we can wrap things up.
0:45:01 Cool.
0:45:03 Ramp things up even more than they already have.
0:45:03 I love it.
0:45:07 Jennifer, thank you so much for joining me.
0:45:10 You can find her at jennifermaker.com.
0:45:15 We’ll link up all the social channels as well for you in the show notes for this episode.
0:45:19 But let’s wrap this thing up with your number one tip for Side Hustle Nation.
0:45:25 I really think that a lot of the problems that people have getting traction in the beginning
0:45:29 is that they’re really not out there promoting themselves and their content enough.
0:45:33 And they get stuck and they don’t get far enough and then they give up.
0:45:38 And so getting out to where your people are, finding them wherever that may be.
0:45:44 And so my people are on Pinterest and Facebook groups and YouTube, which took some time to move
0:45:50 up to, but your people might be on LinkedIn or they might be, they might even be on Reddit.
0:45:52 I know that’s a little tricky, but they are out there.
0:45:54 You have to figure out where they are.
0:46:01 You need to get into their spaces and understand them and be a part of that community.
0:46:07 Just trying to do a thing and hope that someone finds you is not going to work.
0:46:15 You really need to get where they are and be part of it for your content and the services
0:46:19 that you offer to actually be noticed and appreciated.
0:46:22 Yes, absolutely.
0:46:24 Figure out where your people are, go there.
0:46:26 I had one more question I forgot to ask.
0:46:33 And that was if there was a point, you know, maybe several months into this effort where you’re
0:46:39 like, this isn’t working, this is not seeing the results or on the flip side, like an inflection
0:46:41 point where all of a sudden everything clicked.
0:46:42 Both.
0:46:42 Yes.
0:46:49 So about six months into my blog, I found myself sort of losing momentum.
0:46:54 I think it had been like three weeks since I posted and I could see that if I continued
0:46:57 down this path, it would just peter out.
0:47:01 And I had to stop and say, how bad do I want this?
0:47:05 Am I going to allow it to peter out or am I going to actually work at this and put what
0:47:06 is required into it?
0:47:12 And obviously, I redoubled my efforts and that was the last time I had that.
0:47:14 It was just a matter of life.
0:47:15 Life gets in the way sometimes.
0:47:17 That was the last time though.
0:47:21 I decided that this isn’t something that I just do when I had free time.
0:47:25 I made it a priority and that changed everything as far as that goes.
0:47:33 And as far as when things clicked, they clicked about one year in when I offered my first course,
0:47:39 which is my design course, which was a suggestion from my community, which I didn’t think that
0:47:40 they would actually want.
0:47:42 I thought it was too complicated, but they said they wanted it.
0:47:50 So I created a course for them and I made enough that month to take care of the problems that
0:47:52 I was having supporting my family.
0:47:58 And that’s when I realized that this is something that I could do exclusively and I can let the
0:48:00 other things that I’ve been doing to support my family go.
0:48:08 And that was truly a magical moment because I love what I do, but I also love taking care
0:48:09 of my family.
0:48:11 And now I could do both together.
0:48:12 I love it.
0:48:13 Well, thank you for sharing that, Jennifer.
0:48:15 Once again, jennifermaker.com.
0:48:18 Thank you so much for joining me and we’ll catch up soon.
0:48:21 All right.
0:48:22 My top three takeaways from this call with Jennifer.
0:48:26 Number one is that email is still a priority.
0:48:31 This is admittedly something I’ve kind of taken my eye off the ball with over the last couple
0:48:36 of years, but Jennifer’s comments and Rosemary’s comments from a few weeks ago are making
0:48:38 me rethink it in a serious way.
0:48:43 I’ve been taking a look at both of their sites to see how they have these content upgrades
0:48:48 or lead magnets woven organically into their content, where it really seems like a value
0:48:52 add and not a frustrating like, oh, hey, why are you withholding this information from me?
0:48:55 That’s probably a fine line, but they both seem to do it really well.
0:49:00 And the second part of that is what do you do with someone’s email after you have it?
0:49:04 First off, obviously you deliver what you promised, but then what next?
0:49:09 So I’m rethinking my welcome sequences, which are a few years old at this point, relatively
0:49:10 unchanged.
0:49:13 And so that’s something that’s definitely on my project list.
0:49:14 So that’s takeaway number one.
0:49:17 Email is still a big, big priority for any online business.
0:49:20 Takeaway number two for me is to learn as you go.
0:49:25 Now, I think having worked online for years certainly helped shortcut Jennifer’s learning
0:49:28 curve for this new business, but there was still a lot to overcome.
0:49:34 And I personally found her attitude super inspiring, kind of like whatever challenge or barrier to
0:49:37 the next level is, I can figure that out.
0:49:38 I can figure it out.
0:49:40 And her comment at the end, how bad do you want it?
0:49:45 Actually, one interesting side note is I’ve been reading The Power of Full Engagement, which
0:49:47 was recommended by Noah Kagan.
0:49:53 And it talks about this idea of sprint and recovery, of stress and rest, and how you actually need
0:49:54 both to grow.
0:49:58 So I heard some echoes of that when Jennifer talked about her content blasts, like I’m
0:50:00 going to do a video every day for 30 days.
0:50:05 Those obviously being the sprint phases, but you can’t sprint all the time.
0:50:07 That’s a recipe for major burnout.
0:50:10 So instead, ask yourself the questions.
0:50:11 Can you learn as you go?
0:50:15 You probably don’t need to know the full three to five year plan down the road.
0:50:17 It’s probably impossible to predict anyway.
0:50:21 And then are you mapping out appropriate sprint and recovery times?
0:50:23 I thought that was a really powerful idea.
0:50:26 And takeaway number three for me was the idea of piggybacking.
0:50:30 This was something that definitely stood out in our call, how Jennifer piggybacked on the
0:50:33 popularity of the Cricut crafting machine.
0:50:37 I’m still not entirely sure what this thing does, but it’s also important to note that I
0:50:38 don’t have to.
0:50:39 I’m not her target market.
0:50:43 There are plenty of niches that are big enough to build, as you’ve seen, a really substantial
0:50:44 business.
0:50:50 So the question is, is there a tool or product or software that you could similarly piggyback
0:50:51 on and create content about?
0:50:54 That way you’re not having to create demand.
0:50:59 You’re just answering questions and providing content for a tribe that already exists.
0:51:01 And I think that’s a much easier path.
0:51:05 I hope this call got your creative gears turning because it certainly did for me.
0:51:10 Once again, if you hit up side hustle nation.com slash Jennifer, you’ll find links to all the
0:51:10 resources mentioned.
0:51:12 That is it for me.
0:51:14 Thank you so much for tuning in until next time.
0:51:16 Let’s go out there and make something happen.
0:51:19 And I’ll catch you in the next edition of the side hustle show.
0:51:20 I’ll see you then.
Jennifer Marx from JenniferMaker.com started her site in the DIY/crafting niche in late 2016 as a hobby site.
She went from earning $33 in her first month, to 6-figures and beyond every month today.
Tune in to Episode 381 of the Side Hustle Show to learn:
- Why she decided to focus on blogging
- How she found her initial traction
- What drives traffic today
- And how she’s built an email list that’s almost the population of Cleveland!
Full Show Notes: Growing an Online Business to $100k a Month
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