Guy Kawasaki on Masters of Scale: Evangelizing Innovation

0:00:06 From time to time, we’re going to add a few episodes to the Remarkable People podcast.
0:00:13 These will be re-broadcasts of other people’s podcasts or interviews of Guy or Madison or maybe
0:00:20 speeches, stuff that’s just a little treat, a little icing on the cake. We’re calling it the
0:00:28 Pau Hana series. Pau Hana are the words in Hawaiian for after work. So we’re going to post these
0:00:34 after work, typically Friday afternoons or maybe Saturdays. This first one is a
0:00:42 re-broadcast of the Masters of Scale interview that was conducted in March 2024.
0:00:50 It was, in my humble opinion, particularly good, particularly fun, really great production values.
0:00:58 So we thought we would run it. Here you go, Masters of Scale, Mahalo and Aloha.
0:01:08 Twenty years ago, I had a Porsche 911 and I’m driving in Menlo Park, California in my Porsche.
0:01:20 That’s Guy Kawasaki, author, podcast host, a veteran of the early days at Apple and currently
0:01:27 chief evangelist for Canva. So I pull up to this stop sign and I look to my left
0:01:34 and there’s a car with four teenagers in it and they’re smiling, they’re laughing,
0:01:40 they’re making eye contact with me and the girl in the front seat, she makes this motion roll down
0:01:49 your window. I press the button, the window goes down. She sticks out her head and like in my mind,
0:01:56 I’m saying to myself, Guy, you have truly arrived. Even teenage girls know who you are. It’s because
0:02:02 of your work at Apple, it’s your startup garage dot com, it’s your writing, it’s your speaking,
0:02:08 it’s your TEDx, you know, everybody knows who you are. This is the thought going through my head
0:02:18 as I’m sitting in my 911. So she sticks her head out and she says to me, “Are you Jackie Chan?”
0:02:26 Oof, on so many levels, but Guy says he used that day to distill a deep learning.
0:02:35 Don’t worry about what motivates you, just worry about that you got motivated and you made a difference.
0:02:45 The lesson that I took away from the story is that now one of my motivations in life
0:02:53 is that someday Jackie Chan is in Hong Kong in his Bentley or his S-Class
0:02:59 or his Panamera and he pulls up to a stop sign and there’s four teenagers in this car next to him
0:03:06 and they roll down the window and they say to Jackie Chan, “Are you Guy Kawasaki?”
0:03:10 That’s one of my goals in life.
0:03:16 We would all be so lucky to be mistaken for Guy Kawasaki
0:03:22 and to dream as big as he does and they don’t just mean movie star status.
0:03:33 Guy joined Apple in 1983 and helped launch the Macintosh line of Apple computers starting in 1984.
0:03:40 His title was Software Evangelist, selling and advocating the new product line.
0:03:44 Since the 1980s he’s held the position of evangelist, advisor and brand ambassador
0:03:49 at several high-profile companies including Mercedes-Benz, Motorola and now with the design
0:03:55 firm Canva. He’s been a founder and investor in tech beyond personal computers through his firm
0:04:02 Garage Technology Ventures. Now in the fifth decade of his career Guy also shares his experience far
0:04:08 beyond his business partners. He’s written 16 books on entrepreneurship, leadership and personal
0:04:13 growth. Guy hosts a podcast called Remarkable People with accomplished figures from all walks
0:04:19 of life. He says the one thing they have in common is an insatiable desire to learn and to do more.
0:04:24 It’s this combination of an impressive corporate resume and personal growth
0:04:29 that I wanted to explore with Guy Kawasaki. He has keen insight into how founders and
0:04:34 entrepreneurs can grow their companies by expanding their thinking about what’s possible in their own lives.
0:04:39 You’ve got to have incredible talent at every position.
0:04:43 It’s like this huge push. There are fires burning when you’re going out.
0:04:48 Can you believe it? Such an idiot and then you go back to this is totally going to be amazing.
0:04:53 There are so many easy ways. I have no idea what to do. Sorry we made a mistake.
0:04:57 But you have to time it right. Oops. Working out of a free bedroom apartment.
0:05:02 Stuff that just seems absolutely nutball 10 years later. Well that’s just how you do it.
0:05:08 We haven’t made it just how you do it. This is Masters of Scale.
0:05:22 I’m Jeff Berman, your host. One of my favorite aspects of Masters of Scale is hearing stories
0:05:26 behind groundbreaking innovations. And it’s not just the person with the original idea
0:05:31 who takes it to scale. The people to first work alongside any boundary pushing founder
0:05:36 need to have vision too. Vision, perseverance and a growth mindset.
0:05:42 That’s the perspective we focus on today. Guy Kawasaki had an up close view of the early
0:05:47 scaling journey at Apple. The first days of the computers we now simply call Max.
0:05:51 But he didn’t set out to work in a brand new industry or for a Maverick company.
0:05:57 Guy Kawasaki grew up in Hawaii before moving to California for college at Stanford University.
0:06:02 His early understanding of relationships would have a huge impact on his life
0:06:09 and on his career. Growing up in Hawaii, you learned about family. The Hawaiian word for family is
0:06:17 ohana. But ohana extends beyond your blood relatives. There’s this sort of honorary title
0:06:24 that you give to people who are like family but not blood related. I think that the sort of horizons
0:06:33 in Hawaii. If you were successful, you ran Sears Roboc at the Alamoana Shopping Center. You ran
0:06:41 Hilton Hawaiian Village. You work for Dole Pineapple. That was the sort of spectrum of opportunities
0:06:48 there if you were very successful. And then I get off this airplane and I land in California.
0:06:56 And it was as if the scales were removed from my eyes because there’s Hewlett Packard,
0:07:02 there’s National Semiconductor, there’s Intel. And these people are creating international
0:07:09 companies, not just one great department store, one great hotel. And so it just totally brought
0:07:16 in my horizon. After graduating from Stanford, Guy tried law school. He got in and he started,
0:07:20 but he dropped out after just two weeks. Law school was basically saying, yeah,
0:07:25 you may be bright, but we’re going to tear down your mind and build it back up again.
0:07:31 And I could not handle that pressure. Quite frankly, I wimped out. Maybe that’s the last
0:07:35 time I wimped out. Of course, you could make the case that Guy, you wimped out and you ended up
0:07:44 working for Steve Jobs, which is quite the contrast. But before Apple, Guy earned an MBA from UCLA.
0:07:51 While I was at UCLA, I worked for, of all things, a small family owned jewelry manufacturer.
0:08:00 So I literally schlepped gold and diamonds, and we sold to retailers. And from there, I sort of
0:08:08 jumped the curve from jewelry to software in the McIntosh division. And the only explanation I can
0:08:17 give you for that is nepotism. My Stanford classmate and buddy hired me. And on paper, you know,
0:08:23 you wouldn’t need AI to reject me as a candidate to be software evangelist for the McIntosh division.
0:08:28 Well, I’m going to push back on you that it was nepotism, because one, that was Ohana you made,
0:08:34 not Ohana you were born into. And two, the lesson that I’ve heard you talk about having
0:08:40 learned from shopping jewelry all over the world is that sales is everything. And you have to know
0:08:46 how to take care of your customers. And I have to imagine that Apple in those early days, having
0:08:52 someone in your role who was relentlessly focused on the needs of the customers, was a critical
0:08:58 component. And so actually, you seem like the ideal hire for it, given the experience that you’d had.
0:09:06 Far be it from me to correct the record. But let me more accurately describe this. So people think
0:09:13 of sales today as, should I make the border blue? Or should I make it yellow? And let’s do A/B
0:09:19 testing and see if we get more than 1% click through rate increase. This jewelry business is
0:09:26 hand to hand combat. You called on jewelry store owners, and you begged them for business. They
0:09:31 kept you waiting in the lobby. Sometimes the end of the day came and they said, sorry, I don’t have
0:09:37 time to see you anymore. And they stick your designs on a scale and they want to pay you slightly
0:09:47 over what the scrap value of your ring is. And all that really taught me how to sell. And that skill
0:09:54 has stayed with me the rest of my life. Believe it or not, working in the jewelry business prepared
0:10:00 me to be a tech evangelist. In jewelry, Guy had to convince his buyers it’s something about the
0:10:06 product made it worth more than just its literal weight in gold. Maybe the design, the craftsmanship.
0:10:11 At Apple, the pitch was more complicated. What exactly did his job title mean,
0:10:16 software evangelist? In the 1980s, it meant convincing software developers to make programs
0:10:22 for Macintosh computers. Guy was the hype man. He had an enthusiasm in grit rooted in his sales
0:10:27 experience and the knowledge and passion to push for widespread acceptance of Apple’s new technology.
0:10:35 It was sales, marketing and leadership, all rolled into one. And so with Guy as software
0:10:41 evangelist, Apple’s Macintosh computer set off the desktop publishing revolution, empowering
0:10:46 customers to produce documents with text and images. Guy also fostered relationships with
0:10:51 developers who designed software and programs for Apple computers. He convinced them it would be
0:10:57 worth the effort. When Guy left Apple in 1987, the company was just starting its meteoric rise.
0:11:04 When you reflect back on those early days at Apple, was there a sense of how big Apple could
0:11:13 be back then? So you are talking to a person who quit Apple twice and turned down Steve for a third
0:11:21 position. So you know, the receipts indicate that I obviously did not think that Apple was going to
0:11:26 be the most valuable company in the world because I left there twice and turned down the chance to
0:11:32 come back. Guy’s referring to the time he came back to Apple for a couple of years in the 1990s,
0:11:38 then left again for his own projects and declined later opportunities to return to Apple. He left
0:11:43 to pursue other opportunities that simply couldn’t happen within Apple. And maybe there’s no scenario
0:11:49 where Apple or any other big company could have contained his multitudes. But there are ways for
0:11:55 leaders to encourage and keep innovative team members within their ranks, the entrepreneurs,
0:12:01 those who are bursting with ideas they dream of pursuing. What can big companies learn from your
0:12:08 experience about how to not just keep talent like you, but inspire talent like you, especially when
0:12:12 your role is as evangelist. You’re the one who’s outpitching the vision for the company.
0:12:18 Well, I’ve thought about this a lot and I’ll give you some factors that I believe would help
0:12:28 entrepreneurs. So first of all, you will need an ego maniac leader because this ego maniac leader
0:12:34 has to withstand a lot of pressure from the existing infrastructure of the company.
0:12:38 And the negativity that this leader is going to face is that
0:12:44 the sales force is going to save. We’re not interested in this problem. Just give us better,
0:12:55 faster, cheaper status quo. If you don’t make the company jump to the next curve, the company will die
0:13:05 and Kodak is a particularly good example because in 1975, Steve Sassen, an engineer at Kodak,
0:13:12 invented the digital camera. Now, if you invent these digital camera and you go to your boss and
0:13:18 you say, guess what boss, I figured out a way people don’t have to buy film anymore. Am I not a
0:13:27 remarkable engineer? You would have been probably fired because they were geared towards making film
0:13:34 and so the lesson is, do you want to be the next Kodak? Or do you want to be like Apple that went
0:13:44 from personal computer to handheld devices to app stores to continuously reinventing itself?
0:13:51 It sounds counterintuitive, redirecting resources, time and energy from the current product line
0:13:58 for an experimental future unknown innovation. But as Guy says, the bold thinking of these
0:14:04 entrepreneurs is what allows companies to survive in a competitive marketplace and have a chance to
0:14:12 dominate it. A second thing you need is a separate physical building. I don’t think you can do
0:14:21 entrepreneurship inside physically, a company that is already existing and if you are sharing
0:14:28 resources physically inside a building, you’re never going to be top priority. You want people
0:14:34 who are going to live and die with your idea, not people who are matrix managed and giving
0:14:40 a slight part of their perspective and a slight part of their bandwidth to one thing
0:14:45 and they’re doing mostly the existing thing. I think that separate building should be at least
0:14:51 a mile away from headquarters. You want something that’s close enough where you can come back and
0:14:58 steal resources, but far enough so that when managers at the company, if they want to come
0:15:04 see you, they have to get in a car and it’s like such a psychological barrier. “Oh God, I gotta get
0:15:09 in my car, I gotta drive, I gotta find parking, I’ll just leave them alone.” Guy, part of what’s
0:15:13 inherent in what you’re saying also is something I’ve experienced a number of times in my career.
0:15:19 I’ve been asked to present a five-year business plan. You’re laughing because it’s a joke,
0:15:24 but you think about where we were five years ago. As we sit here today, we hadn’t had COVID.
0:15:30 Generative AI was not something that more than a few thousand people were really thinking about
0:15:34 seriously. The world was a very different place and five years from now, it’s going to be even
0:15:40 more different. Given that we know that this is true, why do so many investors, why do so many
0:15:45 big companies, why do they think in this very narrow constrained way where you’re trying to
0:15:51 forecast something that is literally unimaginable? Who among us five years ago said there was going
0:15:57 to be a day when there’s large language models that are sentient and smarter than most people,
0:16:03 and they can write your essays, they can create your PowerPoints, they can generate images.
0:16:09 Nobody said that. It’s part of a game that you have to play, that you have to pretend like
0:16:15 you know what’s going to happen in five years because if you took the opposite approach and
0:16:19 somebody asked you for a forecast and you said, “Listen, I have no freaking idea. I don’t know
0:16:26 what’s going to happen. I’m just making it up as it goes,” which is the truth. I would not say that
0:16:34 is an optimal answer for receiving investment. I think that the sophisticated entrepreneur realizes
0:16:41 it is part of the game. It has to do with the fact that many venture capitalists have to report to
0:16:48 limited partners and limited partners are fund managers and fund managers are spreadsheet jocks
0:16:54 and that’s part of the game they play, but truly sophisticated investors and sophisticated
0:17:02 entrepreneurs know that it is a game. It’s kind of a litmus test on how they feel about your business
0:17:07 as opposed to really what they’re trying to do is do diligence.
0:17:11 Well, it’s interesting. I hadn’t thought about it this way before, but the way you’re describing it,
0:17:16 it sounds like it is a filter for deciding what work to do that is similar to Warren Buffett’s
0:17:21 investment thesis. If you love the product, if you use the product, if you’re obsessed with the
0:17:26 product, then that sounds like a pretty good place to be. Well, it’s easy to evangelize
0:17:32 great stuff and it’s hard to evangelize crap. Guy has been evangelizing for his current company,
0:17:38 Canva, long before most of us heard about it. He started there in 2014 when awareness of the
0:17:44 product was critical and the role of evangelist was clear. Guy saw similarities between Canva
0:17:50 and the early days at Apple. Canva was trying to democratize design the way Apple did for computing.
0:17:57 So 10 years ago, it was me and a handful of people looking like fools when everybody was
0:18:02 using Photoshop and Illustrator. And people were saying, if you truly want to be a designer,
0:18:08 you have to learn Photoshop. You have to be an Adobe customer. And same thing with Macintosh,
0:18:16 when everybody was using MS-DOS. And I guess what I learned, at least in my life, is that
0:18:24 a demo is worth a thousand slides. So you can have all the slides you want and talk about your
0:18:33 differentiation and your key selling points. And everybody makes a chart. And there’s these
0:18:39 features in your competition. And your competition’s column is all empty, but your column is all
0:18:46 check, check, check, check, check. Everybody does that. It’s all BS. So I think the rubber hits the
0:18:55 road when you, back then in 1983, you pull your Macintosh out of a bag and you show them MacPaint
0:19:02 and you show them MacRight. Now these are people who are used to select your correctable typewriters
0:19:11 or at best, at best, Daisy Wheel printers. And you show them MacPaint and MacRight and
0:19:18 Bada Bing, Bada Bang. They either get it in 10 seconds or they never get it. I think the same
0:19:26 is true with Canva. With Canva, I can build an Instagram graphic faster than most people can
0:19:32 boot Photoshop. And you immediately get it. So I’m telling you, if there’s a skill that is
0:19:41 necessary for entrepreneurs to succeed, it is you have to do a great demo. A demo counts for
0:19:46 a thousand slides. It is a well-worn adage of sales and marketing that when you’re selling
0:19:52 something great, it is far better for a prospective customer to experience the product rather than
0:19:57 merely hear a pitch. Do you remember the first time you used a product or service that was
0:20:04 simple, it was useful, perhaps even a beautiful experience? That was Canva for Guy. When he first
0:20:10 saw the product, he knew the impact it could have. For Guy, evangelizing Canva meant and means
0:20:16 showing people its customer-friendly interface for graphic design. The company has attracted 170
0:20:23 million monthly users and earns $2 billion in annual revenue. At first, it drew mostly individuals
0:20:28 and small enterprises, customers who needed visual assets for marketing without hiring a designer.
0:20:36 Now, clients include FedEx, Zoom, and Starbucks. By deeply understanding and believing in the
0:20:42 advantages of his products, Guy has helped Apple, Canva, and others scale to incredible heights.
0:20:48 After the break, we’ll explore more of his personal experiences and insights,
0:21:04 especially around AI and spoiler alert. When it comes to AI, Guy is yet again an evangelist.
0:21:11 We’re back with author, entrepreneur, podcast host, and tech evangelist Guy Kawasaki
0:21:16 to watch our complete conversation head over to the Masters of Scale YouTube channel.
0:21:25 Guy has worked alongside entrepreneurs who grew their ideas into some of the most valuable
0:21:30 businesses of the last half century. He’s also struck out on his own, starting a venture fund
0:21:36 and his own companies. He’s learned countless lessons in leadership, marketing, sales, and
0:21:41 attracting investors. His most recent endeavor ranges widely outside the realm of business.
0:21:47 Guy’s podcast, Remarkable People, features just what you’d expect from the title.
0:21:51 Life stories and lessons from authors, scientists, politicians, and more.
0:21:55 With so many hours of incredible insights on the show,
0:21:59 Guy decided to turn the podcast premise into a book.
0:22:09 Guy, we sit here talking in March of 2024. Your book, Remarkable People, is just out.
0:22:13 You’ve talked a little bit about how you’ve used AI in the process of writing.
0:22:18 Can you give a specific example of where AI made a real difference for you in writing the book?
0:22:25 Absolutely. I use AI as a research assistant. I don’t just go to chat GPT and say,
0:22:30 “Give me 50,000 words on how to think remarkable and be a remarkable person.”
0:22:34 I use it as a research assistant to help me write the book.
0:22:39 Writing a nonfiction book today with chat GPT is so much easier than before,
0:22:44 because before, you had to depend on reading extensively and knowing a lot of people who
0:22:52 could give you ideas. That approach meant using AI tools to help identify examples and patterns,
0:22:58 adding layers of insight to Guy’s innate curiosity. When someone’s story struck him,
0:23:01 he boiled it down to some specific elements he found intriguing,
0:23:04 and then he asked NAI to help him find more.
0:23:12 And I noticed this book comes from interviewing 250 remarkable people,
0:23:20 like Jane Goodall, Stacey Abrams, Wozniak. And what I noticed is that every remarkable person
0:23:25 had a growth mindset. To be remarkable, you have to have a growth mindset. Now,
0:23:30 there are two kinds of paths for many of these remarkable people. Some people,
0:23:36 like Jane Goodall, they fall in love with animals at age six. And for the next 84 years,
0:23:43 they’re focused on animals. Then there’s people like Julia Child. Julia Child, until her mid-30s,
0:23:50 was a spook working for the OSS. The OSS is the organization that became the CIA.
0:23:55 And in her mid-30s, she moved to France, fell in love with French food,
0:24:01 and that’s why Julia Child is the French chef. There’s these two theories, and part of being
0:24:07 remarkable is you have to be able to hold two conflicting ideas in your head. One is be like
0:24:14 Jane Goodall, stick to the path and grow on that path. Another is change horses in the stream.
0:24:21 And so I love the theory of people making great changes. So I need examples.
0:24:28 So I go to ChatGPT, and I said, give me five or six examples of people who have made radical
0:24:37 shifts in their career and achieved great success. 30 seconds later, ChatGPT says Jeff Beasles.
0:24:44 Jeff Beasles started as a private equity person, and he moved to selling books and e-commerce.
0:24:51 And the second example it provides is Julia Child. And I say Julia Child, how is Julia Child
0:24:56 an example of switching careers? And that’s how I learned she worked for the OSS. Now ChatGPT
0:25:04 makes crap up. So then my co-author, I just read this about Julia Child. Go verify that it’s true
0:25:09 that she worked for the OSS. And I can tell you with total certainty that Julia Child would not
0:25:18 be an example in my book where it’s not for ChatGPT. And I would make the case that at least
0:25:25 at the state of the art today, generative AI, you still have to make sure that the message is right.
0:25:32 So it is the world’s greatest assistant, but it is not a replacement for you.
0:25:41 I hear that. And as I use AI as the team behind Masters of Scale uses AI, we’re getting more
0:25:47 efficient. It’s helping us work more quickly, whether that’s grammarly or descript. It’s incredible
0:25:53 how much more productivity we get. But that human element is still there. And it feels like what a
0:25:58 lot of AI is becoming right now and is likely to be at least for the next few years, which is
0:26:04 it’s not a replacement for the human element. It’s really a co-pilot. It’s something that’s
0:26:10 augmenting your analysis, informing your decision making. But it’s like AI-informed, not AI-determined.
0:26:16 And I would say that’s a very good use of AI for writers. And it’s a very good use for
0:26:22 investors to make decisions. At the very least, you could stick in a business plan
0:26:29 and ask ChatGPT, are there any other similar ideas that are floating around the world?
0:26:34 Because I don’t know about you, but I’ve met many entrepreneurs and they always say that
0:26:40 no one else is doing what we’re doing and no one else is capable of doing what we’re doing.
0:26:48 And I’ll tell you that my initial reaction to anyone who says that is, do you not know how to
0:26:56 use Google? I mean, how stupid are you? At the end of the day, there’s only going to be one, two,
0:27:02 or three winners. So what’s your unfair advantage? And I think that is the most difficult question
0:27:12 an entrepreneur will face. And when I looked at plans and pitches, I kind of made the assumption
0:27:19 that, yes, they can deliver on the technology. Yes, they can do this. And now let’s assume
0:27:26 they can do this. How do they differentiate from everybody else? And I’ll tell you something,
0:27:34 the irony of this is that that’s going to occur in LLMs. Like, today, if I had to explain to
0:27:42 someone when to use ChatGPT, when to use Bard, when to use Perplexity, when to use Claude,
0:27:49 when to use all this, I can’t. I mean, I use all fives kind of at random. And in the car business,
0:27:55 if somebody says, well, I want the car that’s the safest, okay, Volvo, I want the car that’s
0:28:03 the sexiest. Okay, Ferrari, you know, I want the car that gets the furthest on a charge. Okay,
0:28:11 I understand that. But I don’t know how LLMs are going to create unique positioning in people’s
0:28:18 minds. We don’t yet know how AI tools are going to distinguish themselves from each other.
0:28:25 We also don’t yet know how and whether customers will care which large language models power those
0:28:31 AI tools. But if anyone knows how to make a product stand out in a new or underdeveloped market,
0:28:37 it’s Guy Kawasaki. And he sees AI as something every company should embrace to speed its innovation.
0:28:45 I’m a glass half full kind of guy. And I would say if I were running these companies, I would say,
0:28:53 oh my God, this is the best thing ever for us to innovate. And we’re going to embrace AI before
0:29:00 our competition does. And we’re going to embrace AI before two guys in a garage do. And we’re going
0:29:06 to take those two guys and two gals in a garage who are innovative. And if we can’t out innovate them,
0:29:13 we’re going to buy them. And even if they’re close to us, then we have to use our other strengths
0:29:21 such as brand awareness, scalability. Huh, what a concept. There should be a podcast about that.
0:29:30 So we can scale, you know, Apple has significant advantages to make anything over any two guys,
0:29:37 two gals in a garage. So I think that you just have to figure that this is going to happen.
0:29:44 And I think it’s the most exciting time to me. AI is is a bigger deal than personal computers,
0:29:53 chips, social media, internet all combined. This is, I cannot believe how much has happened in one
0:29:59 year. Bigger than the Industrial Revolution. Bigger than the Industrial Revolution. I seriously
0:30:05 think so. I feel so lucky to have been born and, you know, been living when this happened.
0:30:14 This is humongous. It’s great talking to you. I appreciate you. Thank you.
0:30:22 Of all the lessons Guy Kawasaki shares, I’m perhaps most struck by the simple question
0:30:27 that every entrepreneur should ask. How does my product improve on what came before?
0:30:34 When you answer that question with conviction, your team members, investors, and customers
0:30:40 are far more likely to join you on your journey. Passionate advocates who’ve seen and believe in
0:30:47 new products can authentically spread the message of their value. That’s evangelism. Done well,
0:30:49 it works no matter what you are selling.
0:31:02 I’m Jeff Berman. Thank you for listening.
0:31:12 Masters of Scale is a Wait What Original. Our executive producer is Eve Tro. The production
0:31:18 team includes Chris Cotier, Alex Morris, Tucker Lagursky, Masha Makutanina, and Brandon Klein.
0:31:24 Mixing and mastering by Aaron Bestinelli. Original music by Eduardo Rivera and Ryan
0:31:31 Holliday. Our head of podcasts is Lita Malai. Visit mastersofscale.com to find the transcript
0:31:44 for this episode and to subscribe to our email newsletter.
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