Henry Shukman, Lessons from an Authentic Zen Master (#51)

0:00:03 When I told family members I’m studying Zen,
0:00:06 a huge red flag goes up in the religious community saying,
0:00:08 “That’s Buddhism. That’s praying to another God.”
0:00:11 Zen is absolutely not a religion.
0:00:14 What is true is that there’s so many definitions for what it might be.
0:00:17 The idea that Zen equates to calm,
0:00:19 as long as there’s a kind of positive association with it,
0:00:22 but what Zen really means is…
0:00:26 Walk me through your first moment of discovery.
0:00:29 And I was very sort of angry, rebellious kid, kind of difficult,
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0:04:29 Henry, it is so great to have you on the show.
0:04:32 Kevin, thank you very much indeed for having me here.
0:04:33 It’s great to be with you.
0:04:35 I have so many questions for you today.
0:04:41 A lot around Zen, living, death, life, like we’re going to get into a lot of it.
0:04:49 I want to start though with one thing that for me has always been, it’s been this problem
0:04:56 I have when I talk to Zen with other people where they see Zen, especially in America,
0:05:01 as something that is on almost every piece of commercial packaging.
0:05:07 Like this will create Zen in you, or this is like, you know, drink this energy relaxing
0:05:10 drink, you’re going to have like a Zen moment or something, right?
0:05:13 Like, why do you think that is?
0:05:17 Like, it’s such a confusing thing because I would love for you to think about why that’s
0:05:20 been co-opted in a way.
0:05:21 What is it about Zen?
0:05:26 And then actually, what is true Zen so that we can tell the difference because there’s
0:05:28 so many definitions for what it might be.
0:05:34 Yeah, yeah, yeah, I know, and the, that phrase Zen and the art of has been used on every
0:05:35 book.
0:05:36 That’s right.
0:05:38 Zen and the art of diaper changing.
0:05:39 Yes.
0:05:46 Look, first of all, I mean, it’s a three-letter word that is kind of beautiful.
0:05:47 Zen.
0:05:54 You know, Z-E-N, it’s just, it’s extraordinary to have a word like that that’s so beautiful,
0:05:59 so sure, and can convey a lot.
0:06:05 And it’s been, it entered the culture of America and the West in the fifties, basically, and
0:06:06 sixties.
0:06:07 Yeah.
0:06:15 And it became this emblem of a whole worldview, like that famous book, Zen and the Art of
0:06:16 Motorcycle Maintenance.
0:06:17 Yes.
0:06:18 You know?
0:06:19 Fantastic book.
0:06:20 It’s an incredible book.
0:06:21 Yeah.
0:06:26 You know, 50 years on or whatever it is, but it’s, it said so much.
0:06:30 It wasn’t just kind of a technique.
0:06:36 It was a whole view of life in the world that could get encapsulated in three letters, just
0:06:37 like that.
0:06:45 It just had tremendous sort of counter-cultural power and then mainstream sort of a way of
0:06:51 distilling philosophy and approach to life into just three letters.
0:06:58 I think that’s part of its power and why it has been co-opted in a lot of marketing and
0:06:59 stuff.
0:07:06 Personally, I don’t mind, because actually the idea that Zen equates to calm or something
0:07:07 like that.
0:07:08 Yeah.
0:07:10 Peacefulness, relaxation, a moment of Zen, you know.
0:07:11 Yeah.
0:07:12 That’s fine.
0:07:20 It’s a great way to the deeper meaning of the word and what it also connotes, just to
0:07:25 have, as long as there’s a kind of positive association with it, I think it’s a good
0:07:26 thing, basically.
0:07:27 Yeah.
0:07:32 And so, but what, what it, I mean, you can, you can approach it in many ways, but what
0:07:41 then really means, you know, what it really connotes is a deep path of existential training
0:07:42 by existential training.
0:07:49 I mean, a way of coming to experience life in a different way, that if you do, it’s
0:07:56 a training, you know, and of course, for each of us, how it will sort of train us is a little
0:08:06 bit different, but it’s a path that medium to long term of coming to experience life
0:08:14 in a very different way, that’s so much richer and so much wider, where in any moment, you
0:08:20 can come back to here and now, and you’re right here and now, and also aware of something
0:08:21 bigger.
0:08:30 It’s as if this little tiny word can open up a much wider sense of an ordinary moment.
0:08:34 When you say training, take me back to through the lineage of this.
0:08:43 So it was Chen in China, and then that when it made its way over to Japan, changed the
0:08:46 word change to Zen to be the Japanese version of that word.
0:08:47 That’s right.
0:08:49 What was the training?
0:08:54 Because when I think of like, people talk about, I’ve heard people say, hey, I do headspace,
0:08:59 I practice Zen, like, you know, because they think of Zen as just relaxation, you know?
0:09:02 And so what is the training of Zen?
0:09:06 Like at its core, is it just meditation?
0:09:12 Is it a specific different flavor of meditation that sets itself apart from everything else?
0:09:13 Yeah, it’s a great question.
0:09:18 I mean, you can, again, it’s going to be a little bit of a multi-valent answer because
0:09:24 it can mean several kinds of training, one of which is just de-stressing.
0:09:30 Zen has always said from the early Chan days, actually, that there are different kinds of
0:09:37 Chan or Zen, meaning some people want it for just calming down, for regulating the nervous
0:09:38 system.
0:09:42 Some people want it for being, you know, more effective at work.
0:09:49 You can actually get more concentration, more power of focus, getting into flow states more
0:09:51 easily with work, you know?
0:09:53 It can be very good on that front.
0:10:04 But the deeper side of it goes beyond those is this real sort of study of who am I?
0:10:06 What is this experience I’m having right now?
0:10:12 Because we take so much for granted, you know, this is my body, I’m somewhere in the body,
0:10:20 I’m a me, I’m a nugget or core identity that I have that’s sort of in this body for a given
0:10:22 number of decades, I hope, you know?
0:10:26 And then it’s over or whatever our belief system might be.
0:10:33 But actually that formulation can be interrogated, can be studied.
0:10:38 So the deeper path of Zen is studying essentially what’s going on here.
0:10:44 You know, there’s consciousness, there’s a human mind, human body, human heart with its
0:10:45 feelings.
0:10:49 But what actually is this experience?
0:10:54 And you know, it’s a little subtle and maybe not so easy to get one’s head around it.
0:11:02 Because basically it’s saying we take for granted the experiences arising.
0:11:05 There’s consciousness and there’s experience.
0:11:08 But how come it’s arising?
0:11:09 What actually is it?
0:11:15 We get so sort of locked on to what we’re experiencing and managing all of that.
0:11:22 To take the step back, say, well, hold on, what is it to be experiencing at all?
0:11:26 Are you talking about contemplation of life and death?
0:11:27 That comes into it.
0:11:28 Because we can…
0:11:30 Like why does life exist?
0:11:34 Why was I gifted into this universe?
0:11:35 Exactly.
0:11:41 And along with that, what actually is it to be alive, you know, to be having conscious
0:11:47 experience is actually something that if you get sort of quiet enough through the practice
0:11:54 of meditation, you can study, you know, what is going on in any ordinary moment?
0:12:00 And the more we study it, the more we rest in it and can sort of look at it, we find
0:12:03 there’s something here that we’d overlooked.
0:12:09 Before we go into that, when you say the word study, that’s a little bit of a loaded term.
0:12:13 Because I think academically, people often think of like, well, there’s a book I should
0:12:14 read.
0:12:17 And if you’re a Christian, you study the Bible.
0:12:19 If you’re Mormon, it’s the Book of Mormon, like the Quran.
0:12:21 There’s many, many religious texts.
0:12:23 What is that for Zen?
0:12:25 Oh yeah, it’s totally different.
0:12:26 You know what I mean?
0:12:27 Yeah, yeah.
0:12:28 What we’re studying is experience.
0:12:29 But is there any books?
0:12:35 Is there any books that like are considered the kind of like, you know, the corpus of
0:12:41 data, the information that I need to know how to practice Zen, or is it, how is this
0:12:42 handed down?
0:12:47 How do I know that you’re practicing Zen versus what they were practicing in China?
0:12:48 Yeah.
0:12:49 Oh, so long ago.
0:12:50 Yeah.
0:12:51 Okay, that’s a great question.
0:12:55 There isn’t an equivalent in terms of, it’s laid out here, just read it and you’ll understand
0:12:56 it and then you’ll get it.
0:12:58 No, there isn’t that.
0:13:07 There are, what Zen has a real special thing it has is these things called koans.
0:13:12 And koans are little phrases that are apparently paradoxical.
0:13:14 They don’t make a lot of sense.
0:13:17 Like, what is the sound of one hand is a famous one.
0:13:18 Yeah.
0:13:21 You know the sound of two hands clapping, but do you know the sound of one hand?
0:13:27 And so that is an actual Zen koan, which is, when did that originate?
0:13:33 Yeah, that actually, yeah, they mostly the koans originated in China in the time of Chan,
0:13:34 which was…
0:13:35 How many years ago?
0:13:36 What have we talked about here?
0:13:37 All right, the more, more, thousands.
0:13:38 Okay.
0:13:45 I mean, there was this great period of Zen’s first great sort of flourishing was Tang Dynasty
0:13:52 China, which is 600 to 608 to 918 or something like that, something like that.
0:13:57 Maybe I got that slightly wrong, but 600 to 900 in China.
0:14:05 So 1400 to 1100 years ago, basically, so during that time, essentially, by the way, Zen is
0:14:06 a form of Buddhism.
0:14:07 Right.
0:14:09 I was going to say, what made the link there?
0:14:10 So was there a link from India?
0:14:11 Yeah, that totally is.
0:14:12 Okay.
0:14:16 Yeah, because there was a form of, there was a form of Buddhism in India.
0:14:21 This is according to Zen, Jhana Buddhism or Jhana Buddhism, which is a kind of, it is
0:14:28 actually a bona fide thing, Jhana practice, where you’re developing your power of essentially
0:14:31 developing flow states in meditation.
0:14:37 So that, according to Zen, is what sort of was brought from India to China.
0:14:42 When it was in China in that, and it was really flourishing, that process happened over 500
0:14:43 years.
0:14:47 Who is the master in China that was considered to be the one that adopted in China first?
0:14:51 Well, according to sort of legend or possibly some history, there was a figure called the
0:14:58 Bodhidharma, who came in the sixth century from India to China, was said to have lived
0:15:06 to the age of 150, and it’s somewhat legendary, no doubt, but there probably was an actual
0:15:12 master called Bodhidharma, who came, who did practice this deep meditation Buddhism, as
0:15:18 opposed to other kinds of Buddhism with other practices, like more sort of veneration or
0:15:22 worship or sacrifice or whatever, other kinds of.
0:15:24 Were there other going on at the same time?
0:15:27 Was this in the age of Confucius or before Confucius?
0:15:29 This is after that, after that.
0:15:33 Daoism was already well established in China.
0:15:40 And so it infused the form that Buddhism took in China, the Daoism did.
0:15:46 But the Koan thing arose in that early period of Zen, 600 to 900.
0:15:53 And essentially what happened is that masters or practitioners who have gone through the
0:15:59 training and that something’s happened to them and they’re living in a slightly different
0:16:05 state of mind from most of us, they would say things and do things that apparently didn’t
0:16:07 make sense.
0:16:12 But actually, if you could sort of get to their frame of mind, they did make sense.
0:16:19 So the Koan became a kind of entry point, that you could sit with this bizarre thing
0:16:25 somebody said, or sometimes a tiny little narrative or something they did, and you take
0:16:34 it into your meditation and in order for it to start to make sense to you, it can trigger
0:16:37 a shift in your own experience.
0:16:48 And then suddenly what seemed like jibberish, suddenly you have a minor or a major epiphany.
0:16:53 What parallels do you have in a non-enlightened person’s reality?
0:16:56 Because what you’re talking about is like, you’re saying there’s an awakening moment
0:17:02 where a shift happens in the mind and that idea of what you said there with the sound
0:17:06 of two hands, what is the sound of one hand, all of a sudden, if I had gone through that,
0:17:11 I’d be like, well, I know what that, I got it, is that more or less like, I would understand
0:17:12 it instantly?
0:17:18 Yeah, it’s like, it is actually like that, it’s beautiful, I mean, imagine an aha moment
0:17:22 when we suddenly, when suddenly we understand something.
0:17:25 The only thing I can think of is pre and post kids.
0:17:29 All my friends could tell me what it’s like to have a kid and the love that you will feel
0:17:30 for a child.
0:17:36 And that was just like, I know what love feels like and it was like, I could understand it
0:17:42 from a like, 10,000 feet kind of point of view, but when you have one and you’re holding
0:17:50 that little being, a chamber opens up in your heart that was always there, but is revealed
0:17:55 in a new, more compassionate and deeper way that you just can’t put into words.
0:17:56 That’s exactly right.
0:17:57 It’s very analogous.
0:17:58 Is that similar?
0:18:04 It’s very, very similar, because actually what happens in a moment of awakening, if
0:18:11 we call it that, is this shift where you discover something that had been going on all along
0:18:18 anyway, that you just hadn’t noticed and it actually always touches the human heart.
0:18:20 Our heart’s open.
0:18:22 It’s very analogous.
0:18:27 Is it a laughing type moment, because like some of the accounts I’ve heard of people
0:18:33 going into having this shift, they almost, some burst out laughing and I can imagine
0:18:37 in my head, and correct me if I’m wrong here because obviously I’ve not had this shift,
0:18:41 but it would seem like, it would be funny because it was so obvious that it was there
0:18:42 all along.
0:18:43 Yes.
0:18:44 It’s like, how did I forget this?
0:18:46 Oh, it’s how did I forget this?
0:18:47 Yes.
0:18:51 So it’s not a discovering, it’s a, you had forgotten it.
0:18:52 It feels like that.
0:18:57 It feels like you’re just rediscovering something that had been here all along, that had been
0:18:58 long forgotten.
0:19:03 Forgotten in the previous life, forgotten since childhood.
0:19:04 I don’t know.
0:19:06 I would guess since early childhood.
0:19:14 Because I remember being a child and having these moments of just like, just ease and
0:19:17 just, there was no care, there was no expectations.
0:19:20 There was like, it was very present.
0:19:23 I didn’t care what was going to happen tomorrow and I didn’t care what happened yesterday.
0:19:28 It was all about like, and I know that’s not the same, but is there a bit of my, my feeling
0:19:29 on something?
0:19:30 Yeah.
0:19:31 Yeah.
0:19:32 It’s totally on it.
0:19:36 I mean, what, let me see if I can put it another way.
0:19:41 We’re, we’re living in a certain way and our, you know, as we grow up through childhood
0:19:48 into adulthood, we get very conditioned to be thinking ahead and looking back to learn
0:19:53 from the past and thinking ahead of the future and planning and sort of being on a path,
0:20:00 a track, you know, and this would be a sudden moment when all that drops and we, we just
0:20:04 enter into this moment very, very vividly.
0:20:09 And so it’s got that in common with childhood presence.
0:20:12 And sometimes it’s, it’s even wider and sort of deeper.
0:20:20 We find that the whole of our life had been held by something much greater that we’ve
0:20:24 always been part of, which seems to, you know, feel like it’s, sometimes you can feel like
0:20:28 it’s the whole cosmos, you know, is present right here now.
0:20:34 And sometimes it’s less cosmic and just more like, wow, I’m kind of part of this very room
0:20:35 that I’m in.
0:20:42 It’s like the separation between me and my surroundings drops away and it’s, everything’s
0:20:46 here and joined in one kind of substance.
0:20:52 And it’s a beautiful discovery and it’s not a, whether it’s a discovery or the recovery
0:20:56 of something long forgotten, in a way, it doesn’t matter because it hasn’t been present
0:20:57 to me.
0:21:01 And when it suddenly is, it changes everything.
0:21:02 It really changes everything.
0:21:04 And is this what’s called enlightenment?
0:21:09 Well, I don’t know whether the word enlightenment or awakening, I don’t know.
0:21:14 The western mind put the word enlightenment on it, but the, actually the word enlightenment
0:21:21 has different meanings in the West, you know, historically, it’s a movement of, of political
0:21:25 and science rebirth and stuff in the 17th, 18th centuries.
0:21:29 But this is, so we use that word a lot in the West.
0:21:36 I know the original Sanskrit word Bodhi, which the word Buddha comes from as well, is to
0:21:38 do with awakening.
0:21:45 It’s like waking up from a dream and, and waking into a greater reality, you know, it’s very
0:21:46 beautiful.
0:21:53 And, and the thing about it is it’s not, it’s real, that’s the most important thing.
0:22:00 It’s not that we’re sort of distorting our minds into doing something unusual, you know,
0:22:06 or going into some special place or even going into an altered state.
0:22:07 I don’t think so.
0:22:11 It’s actually, we’ve actually been living in a kind of altered state and we’re, and
0:22:15 which has been a tightening and a constricting of our experience.
0:22:19 And that releases, relaxes and releases.
0:22:24 And then we’re, we’re actually back in a more real experience, but we just got so conditioned
0:22:28 to, to living in a narrower sense of things.
0:22:32 And so we’re relaxing into a much broader sense of things.
0:22:37 And then when, so coming back to the koan, when, when we’re sitting with a koan, it’s,
0:22:42 it’s, we’ll use our minds to try to unravel this crazy riddle and we get nowhere.
0:22:48 And it eventually at some point, the mind just gives up, really gives up.
0:22:53 And, and then often it’s a, it’s even some despair that I’ll God, I’ll never get this.
0:22:54 I’ll never get this.
0:22:55 I’m giving it up.
0:23:01 You know, two days later, somebody might, having given up like that, suddenly they’re,
0:23:06 you know, they’re in a supermarket aisle, reaching for the frozen peas.
0:23:14 And suddenly they just get hit by this, oh, I’m part of everything or, you know, as pop
0:23:15 this changes shift.
0:23:16 Yeah.
0:23:17 This happens.
0:23:22 But that will be, you say giving up, we shouldn’t go a little bit into koans and how they apply
0:23:27 to practice because it says, so far we’ve mentioned, there’s these riddles.
0:23:34 If someone is going to practice legitimate Zen and take up koan study, yeah, when you
0:23:39 say back to your example of, and we can introduce move, you would like as well, but you’re back
0:23:43 to your example of the, what is the sound of one hand?
0:23:44 What are you practicing?
0:23:47 Like, like, like it’s like, yeah, I have this printed on the piece.
0:23:48 This is paper, kiss into one hand.
0:23:49 Okay.
0:23:50 Now what do I do?
0:23:51 Yeah.
0:23:52 Good question.
0:23:53 And then there’s a book.
0:23:54 We should tell the people there is a book of these koans.
0:23:55 Five hundred plus of them.
0:23:56 Is there more than that?
0:23:57 Like there’s several books.
0:23:58 Yeah.
0:23:59 Several great collections.
0:24:00 Yeah.
0:24:05 Like the blue cliff record is one and the gate list gate is another, for example, they’re
0:24:11 from Tang, mostly from actually just after the Tang Dynasty in China, they got collected
0:24:13 around a thousand years ago.
0:24:15 But yeah, good question.
0:24:21 What really has to happen is that somebody is already meditating, they already have a
0:24:22 regular meditation practice.
0:24:26 And that’s just following the breath, is that like classic, like the way we think of meditation
0:24:34 when we’ve taken any handful of apps, it’s like I’m just, the goal of what I’m supposed
0:24:42 to be doing is to focus on a singular point, follow that breath, and when a thought enters
0:24:47 the mind, recognize it, let it go, don’t take offense to it, and move back to the focusing
0:24:48 on the breath.
0:24:50 Is that what you consider to be a basic meditation practice?
0:24:53 Yes, but there’s others that are also basic.
0:24:54 Okay.
0:24:59 And broadly speaking, there’s two big sort of categories of meditation.
0:25:05 One is like that, focus attention on a single given object, for example, the breath.
0:25:13 But another whole cap of early, and in long-term meditation too, is open awareness.
0:25:17 And Zen has that as well, by the way, not only the koan path.
0:25:22 Open awareness means you’re actually not trying to focus on any one thing, you’re trying to
0:25:29 be wide open, and instead just be aware of whatever is uppermost in attention.
0:25:30 What’s that called?
0:25:32 Shikantasa, or just sitting.
0:25:33 Okay.
0:25:34 Just sitting.
0:25:40 And other traditions have it, not only Zen, where you just say you’re just sort of resting
0:25:45 in awareness, and you might notice the breath, you might notice the sound, you might notice
0:25:51 your foot, you might notice your seat, then a thought comes, and you’re just open to any
0:25:52 of it.
0:25:57 And you’re not trying actually to guide your attention, you’re just sort of resting open.
0:25:59 This is sort of being like a mirror.
0:26:05 So that’s also a foundational and long-term path of practice.
0:26:10 So, if you’re sitting with a koan, what would happen, or if you pick up a koan, you want
0:26:17 to try practicing with a koan, you’re doing either of those kinds of practices.
0:26:22 And so, you got your piece of paper, it says, “What is the sound of one hand?”
0:26:23 What does that even mean?
0:26:24 I don’t know.
0:26:25 Right.
0:26:28 So, we just try saying it in our minds, “What is the sound of one hand?”
0:26:35 And then we come back to our practice, whichever it may be, and we just sort of feel, it does
0:26:40 saying that phrase in my mind, “Have any effect.”
0:26:45 Like, is there some, is there anything, how, what’s the spacing look like there?
0:26:52 So if you said that, and then you go to feel it, is it a repetitive, almost like a mantra
0:26:53 type?
0:26:57 Because when I think of mantra-based meditation, a transcendental meditation, they’ll give
0:27:03 you a word and they say, “This word is to be repeated over and over and over again.”
0:27:06 And if you’re doing a proper 25 minutes said, you probably said it hundreds of times.
0:27:07 Yes.
0:27:09 How does that differ with koan-based study?
0:27:14 Is it a saying it, reflection period of x number of seconds, and then saying it again,
0:27:15 what’s…
0:27:20 There are different ways, we’re getting into the real weeds here, it’s great.
0:27:28 So you can do it on every exhale, that’s one common method is just repeat the phrase
0:27:29 on every exhale.
0:27:35 And by the way, what is the sound of one hand is not by any means the only early one.
0:27:37 You could ask, “Who am I?”
0:27:38 Who am I?
0:27:39 I like that one better.
0:27:40 It’s probably a better beginning.
0:27:41 Would you say this about beginners?
0:27:42 I think it is, actually.
0:27:47 Although I’ve known people sit with, there’s some surgeon who was doing, a military surgeon
0:27:56 who was doing some practice loosely with me, who came out of the operating theatre, he’d
0:28:00 been sitting with, what is the sound of one hand, and all of a sudden, he just exploded
0:28:04 in a huge experience of awakening through the sound of one hand.
0:28:06 So it can happen.
0:28:12 But typically, “Who am I?” is a bit easier because you can kind of…
0:28:16 It’s not so obviously nonsensical kind of thing.
0:28:19 But there are others too like, “Who hears?
0:28:20 Who hears?
0:28:21 Let me just repeat it.”
0:28:25 So can be on every exhale, you repeat it.
0:28:31 Can also be, you say it, this is all in your mind, silently in the mind.
0:28:34 You hear it in your mind, “Who hears?”
0:28:36 And then you just wait.
0:28:43 And then a few seconds later, or 10 or 20 seconds later, you repeat it, and you see.
0:28:50 Where it can be, you just drop in it and sort of forget about it and do maybe breath practice
0:28:55 or maybe just the open awareness practice.
0:29:01 And maybe it comes back to you in five or 10 minutes, you just repeat it again.
0:29:06 But you don’t really, you don’t have to do the repetitive use of it.
0:29:09 But that is also a common method too.
0:29:11 You mentioned “moo” actually.
0:29:18 So there’s a common, one of the sort of common early co-uns to use.
0:29:22 Arguably this would probably be the most non-commercial famous.
0:29:25 Like the sound of one hammer is probably the most commercial famous in terms of, most
0:29:27 people have heard of that.
0:29:33 But you would say in terms of, correct me if I’m wrong here obviously, you’re the experts.
0:29:38 In terms of beginners getting started, is it typically the go-to?
0:29:40 Yes, it usually is.
0:29:41 Normally.
0:29:44 Although that would depend a little bit on which lineage and which school, but it very
0:29:45 often is.
0:29:53 But that would only be when somebody has got a steady practice and has clearly got a curiosity
0:30:01 and feels that this is, they’ve got a curiosity about examining the state of experience, what
0:30:02 it is.
0:30:03 What do they want?
0:30:07 When someone, what’s the common thread you see amongst your students?
0:30:08 What curiosity?
0:30:09 What are they looking for?
0:30:12 Can I speak for me?
0:30:17 I’ll just be really transparent and vulnerable for a minute.
0:30:27 I don’t know where I’m going and my dad has passed away and I miss him severely.
0:30:34 And I want to know what happens after debt and I have a fear of debt.
0:30:38 Like internally I feel like it’s a scary thing.
0:30:43 And so, is that common for people?
0:30:46 Does people come into this?
0:30:51 Is that a curiosity that is valid to have?
0:30:56 What are the common curiosities that people approach you with and what can Zinn solve
0:30:57 for them?
0:31:01 Yeah, that’s a beautiful thing to share, thank you.
0:31:05 So you’ve probably heard me mention on the podcast, in the past or other podcasts, there
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0:31:16 The sauna is huge.
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0:33:07 It’s absolutely probably the most common.
0:33:11 It’s like, “Well, what’s going to happen?
0:33:14 I’m in this life, and suddenly I’m not going to.”
0:33:16 I know that’s going to happen.
0:33:17 And I’ve lost someone.
0:33:20 I’m in love.
0:33:22 How do I process it?
0:33:24 What does it mean?
0:33:29 So that’s actually what Zen is for.
0:33:39 It’s really for revelation or gentle, it’s sort of exposing us to more dimensions of
0:33:46 what life actually is to getting, it’s as if we’ve had a two-dimensional view and we
0:33:48 can have a three-dimensional view.
0:33:53 Well, I actually think we’ve got a three-dimensional view, but we can have a four-dimensional view
0:33:55 or a five-dimensional view.
0:34:00 We can literally open up to sensing another dimension at least.
0:34:01 In real time.
0:34:02 In real time.
0:34:03 Right now.
0:34:04 Like you feel this right now.
0:34:05 Yeah.
0:34:06 There’s obviously a great space here.
0:34:07 Right now.
0:34:08 It’s not.
0:34:09 You know, we’re talking to each other.
0:34:10 Why do we create space?
0:34:13 I think it’s a great space of love.
0:34:22 And that love holds both life and death and it makes death okay because it shows us that
0:34:24 love is bigger than we think it is.
0:34:26 Life is bigger than we think it is.
0:34:32 You know, Zen, they talk about this awakening experience is finding your own original nature
0:34:36 or finding your seeing your own original face.
0:34:42 And it’s discovering something outside time that’s present always.
0:34:46 And some people say it’s awareness itself.
0:34:50 Some will say, “Eh, maybe, but maybe it’s space.”
0:34:53 Some will say, “Not sure, maybe it’s nothing.
0:34:54 Maybe it’s empty.”
0:34:57 But all of them are good.
0:35:06 It’s finding this extra dimension that puts our whole life as we know it in a different
0:35:07 perspective.
0:35:11 And from that different perspective, you know, our hearts are open.
0:35:18 We feel suffering readily and we sort of don’t mind because our heart makes our hearts more
0:35:22 open and our hearts are supposed to feel they’re not supposed to be closed.
0:35:25 Of course, they often get that way because we get hurt.
0:35:26 We get afraid.
0:35:30 We’re afraid of our existential situation.
0:35:36 But this discovery and it can come in little glimpses and different time does not always
0:35:38 one earth-shattering revelation.
0:35:41 No, it doesn’t need to be.
0:35:47 All hits that soften and open our hearts and we start to sense, “Ah, there’s something
0:35:51 more here, no.”
0:35:53 Not in some future time, but right now.
0:35:55 And we’re being held.
0:36:01 It’s like being held by a greater reality and it’s a beautiful thing to sense.
0:36:08 And some of it we can put into words and some of it we just can’t, but we know it.
0:36:10 But it’s kind of a different kind of knowing.
0:36:14 It’s not the kind of knowing you can get from words on paper.
0:36:15 It’s not book knowledge.
0:36:17 It’s not book knowledge.
0:36:25 And in a way, it puts all the things we can know through book knowledge in another perspective,
0:36:33 too, that there’s this wider sense of belonging and of participating in sort of in the life
0:36:40 of the universe is really what it feels like or at least the life of this world, where there’s
0:36:43 something bigger here.
0:36:49 And I just love it because I’ve been on the trail of it since I was a kid, actually, for
0:36:50 various reasons.
0:36:55 Walk me through your first moment of discovery.
0:36:56 Yeah.
0:36:57 Yeah.
0:37:04 I mean, I had a, I was, I’ve taught, I’ve written about this, you know, I don’t want to,
0:37:05 I was lucky.
0:37:07 I got lucky in a certain sense.
0:37:14 I’d had actually rather a difficult childhood with a severe skin affliction and, you know,
0:37:21 and so on and a difficult parental divorce, very difficult, actually.
0:37:26 And then when I was, and I was very angry, rebellious kid, kind of difficult, got thrown
0:37:29 out of school and stuff happened.
0:37:37 Then when I was 19, I was, I’d gone away, I grew up in Oxford, England, you know, and
0:37:42 I’d actually got an early place to go to Cambridge.
0:37:45 But I kind of didn’t want to, actually.
0:37:49 That my family was very academic, you know, both my parents were professors.
0:37:54 It was like, you should do this because you’re, it’s like, I had a dad like that, too.
0:38:00 It was like, this is the path, follow what I’m doing, you’re in trouble if you don’t.
0:38:02 And you’ve carved your own road.
0:38:03 Yeah.
0:38:04 Totally.
0:38:05 I ended up rebelling a lot, actually.
0:38:06 Yeah.
0:38:10 And then not doing certain things that you wanted me to do, but yeah, so please continue.
0:38:16 So I went off and actually, I worked in South America and for a few months and then traveled
0:38:23 backpacked before going to university, I had a big chunk of time off and I wrote my first
0:38:25 book actually during that time.
0:38:32 I was a, I’d been a young poet, you know, so towards the end of my trip out in South
0:38:41 America, I was, I was on a beach all alone, having finished my book, which brought a great
0:38:48 sense of accomplishment, you know, I was only 19 and I’d written a book, you know, and and
0:38:54 I was, I was curious about the world, you know, and I was just studying a sunset as
0:39:00 it happened, just watching the process of the sun going down over the horizon, the great
0:39:07 Pacific, you know, and it was very beautiful experience thoroughly all alone, just studying
0:39:17 this sunset and then suddenly out of nowhere, really out of nowhere, I had no interest in
0:39:19 the kind of thing we’ve been talking about.
0:39:20 You’d never meditated at this point.
0:39:25 No, actually, I had a little bit as a 14, 15 year old, okay, from reading Be Here Now
0:39:26 by Ram Dass.
0:39:30 I just tried it a little bit, but it wasn’t part of my life at all.
0:39:35 You know, I was, I was basically a, you know, literary, I was interested in poetry, you
0:39:42 know, looking at the scene of the beautiful sunset, Pacific Ocean, sun going down, lovely
0:39:48 beach, nobody around at all, all alone, and suddenly, you know, I’m all alone.
0:39:50 What century is this?
0:39:57 It could have been any century, this young human looking at the sun, by the ocean, nothing.
0:40:01 There was actually nothing in the scene to tell me it was 20th century.
0:40:03 It was just a thought that hit your head?
0:40:04 What century is this?
0:40:05 Yeah.
0:40:06 Yeah.
0:40:07 I realized.
0:40:10 Was it a confusing thought or were you just be like, oh, crazy, this could be any sense.
0:40:11 It was liberating.
0:40:17 It was like, it was suddenly like, I don’t have to be who I think I am.
0:40:20 That was the first thing, like, I don’t really know.
0:40:25 I’m just a human body, male human body, young in the world.
0:40:33 And suddenly it was as if the trappings of my life, who I am, you know, my nationality,
0:40:35 time and place sort of fell away.
0:40:40 That was the first thing.
0:40:46 And then freed of who I thought I was for just a moment, I suddenly joined what I was
0:40:47 looking at.
0:40:53 It’s hard to describe, but I became the whole scene.
0:41:01 Instead of I’m in here looking out, it was rather I joined, I dropped away in my normal
0:41:08 sense of being Henry and became part of a greater whole that was showing up as this
0:41:09 scene.
0:41:10 What did that feel like to you?
0:41:12 It was mind-blowingly beautiful.
0:41:16 It felt like belonging to the whole universe.
0:41:24 And actually, it got deeper because then once I was part of the scene, the fabric, the things
0:41:30 in the world, as if I just dropped right into the fabric of creation is what it felt like.
0:41:33 And I could see in that you were the creator.
0:41:37 No, no, no, no, no, I’m the observer.
0:41:38 Not the observer I am.
0:41:39 Part of everything.
0:41:40 Part of everything.
0:41:41 Fully integrated.
0:41:42 Fully integrated.
0:41:50 It was like I felt that I was part of the whole universe, that the beginning of time was
0:41:54 just here and the end of the cosmos was just here.
0:41:57 When you say just here, you’re still doing separation with your hands.
0:42:05 It’s more like it was just one feel that had no dimension.
0:42:08 It’s one sort of, it’s really very difficult to describe.
0:42:10 How long did this last for?
0:42:11 Not very long.
0:42:12 Like 10 seconds?
0:42:16 I think it was probably a little longer, but probably less than, I’d say it was very lightly,
0:42:17 less than five minutes.
0:42:20 Okay, so you’re not practicing meditation.
0:42:22 And I’m not holding anything.
0:42:25 And you literally like, did someone like drug me?
0:42:26 Yeah, exactly.
0:42:27 Laced my coffee.
0:42:28 No.
0:42:29 Well, I knew that.
0:42:30 You must have been confused though, right?
0:42:31 Like how can you not be confused?
0:42:32 It was so beautiful.
0:42:33 The beauty was overwhelming.
0:42:34 So I just, I just…
0:42:35 You just went with it?
0:42:36 I went with it.
0:42:37 Yeah.
0:42:41 And there really wasn’t anybody left to resist.
0:42:45 And I felt that it was really like, I mean, honestly, it was, if I get into the detail,
0:42:51 it was like all there was was this field kind of made a nothing with all these little shifting
0:42:52 sparks.
0:42:56 And that’s what I was, and it’s what the cosmos was.
0:42:59 Could you have stood up and walked around at that point or were you just falling over
0:43:01 because everything was so like…
0:43:02 I don’t know.
0:43:03 That’s a good question.
0:43:07 The thing I think about is, like, you know, I’ve had some experience with psychedelics
0:43:08 for therapy reasons.
0:43:13 I did a Heroptos and Mushrooms one time after my dad passed, and I had to use the bathroom.
0:43:19 And then you take the mask off and I’m like, I can’t even get two feet, I will collapse.
0:43:24 Like, was it that disorienting where you were just like, whoa, like, wow, feel like, did
0:43:27 it just knock your socks off kind of thing?
0:43:29 Did you have to stay seated for a minute or…?
0:43:31 I think I was standing.
0:43:32 Oh, wow.
0:43:33 Okay.
0:43:39 But honestly, in the thick of it, there could have been no thought about, do I need to walk?
0:43:40 That’s wouldn’t have come up.
0:43:43 I was just, I was gone.
0:43:44 And then I remember…
0:43:45 Henry was gone.
0:43:46 Henry was gone.
0:43:52 And it was, huh, the separate body, it was all gone.
0:44:01 And then it sort of, it faded to the extent that, oh, I’m standing on this beautiful beach.
0:44:02 I was back.
0:44:03 You were back.
0:44:11 Knowing where I was, but when I was back, I had this just overwhelming feeling of love
0:44:12 in my heart.
0:44:21 There was like a physical flame of love, just beautiful, pouring flame of, I mean, it didn’t
0:44:28 burn, but it was like a flame, just pouring pouring for the next 48 hours or something.
0:44:32 And I was, I was, it was just overwhelmingly beautiful.
0:44:41 And I’d found, I’d found, I’d found, I hadn’t been a seeker at all, but I’d found I was
0:44:45 a seeker’s seeker without being a seeker.
0:44:46 That doesn’t make any sense.
0:44:51 Well, people call us a seeker, meaning they’re on a spiritual search, right?
0:44:52 Yes.
0:44:58 I had found the answer, you know, I found to seek.
0:45:01 I wasn’t looking, but it had showed itself anyway.
0:45:02 See what I mean?
0:45:08 So I had suddenly found what I years later, I come to realize seekers are looking for.
0:45:15 They’re looking for this, that they believe rightly that there’s some kind of union between
0:45:19 me and the universe that can be found and they’re right.
0:45:20 That’s what I feel.
0:45:21 Right.
0:45:22 It can be found.
0:45:23 Okay.
0:45:30 Why I got it without looking for it, I don’t know, but I know that it was not the end of
0:45:37 the road for me because after that, so I had this, you know, yeah, awakening experience.
0:45:44 Everything, the whole, everything was different thereafter because I’d found what my real life
0:45:45 really was.
0:45:51 I believe it was a master Dogen that said body and mind drop, drop away.
0:45:52 Yeah.
0:45:53 Yeah.
0:45:54 Was it Dogen?
0:45:55 He did say that.
0:45:56 Yeah.
0:45:57 Was that what you experienced?
0:45:58 Was it not to that level?
0:46:00 I suspect it wasn’t to that level.
0:46:03 Can we talk about the gradients of awakening?
0:46:08 Because like so many people think, and this is like, I’m just drawing from personal experience
0:46:12 from friends, conversations, they think that awakening is a switch.
0:46:16 And it’s like, if you’re awakened, it switched on and you’re awakened and you are now a
0:46:18 perfect human.
0:46:19 Yes.
0:46:20 I would differ.
0:46:21 I would differ.
0:46:22 Yeah.
0:46:23 I know.
0:46:26 I’m really curious because like, you know, I think that it may be the, I mean, I could
0:46:32 say that, okay, for me, I, you know, for a few weeks, I was in a blessed transfigured
0:46:39 state, but then I went home and in that very open state, all the unhappiness in my childhood
0:46:40 just overwhelmed me.
0:46:45 I was retraumatized and I went through a really hellish time for a few years.
0:46:47 Then I got on the path.
0:46:53 I actually then got on the path of training of doing the therapy and a lot of meditation.
0:47:01 And so I’ve come to understand that for anyway, for me, it’s a part of healing and awakening.
0:47:07 And it’s true that God, 25 odd years later, after a lot of training, I did actually go
0:47:15 through various other, you know, revelatory moments, kind of like that, but different.
0:47:20 And then eventually something else happened that was sort of, I think it was deeper, actually,
0:47:26 when really there was just nothing and in the most beautiful way and different from
0:47:29 that, that early experience.
0:47:34 And then I kind of, that really did seem to make a decisive shift, actually.
0:47:40 But I would still wouldn’t say, I mean, I now have a very, you know, sort of whole
0:47:44 kind of view of the whole thing and I don’t even, I love Henry.
0:47:48 You know, I don’t have a feeling I’ve got to get rid of Henry.
0:47:50 You know, it’s like, I mean, I don’t…
0:47:51 And Henry is flawed.
0:47:52 Henry is deeply…
0:47:53 Even to this day.
0:47:54 Yeah.
0:47:57 You can still get into arguments with your wife.
0:47:58 I wish I did.
0:48:01 I can be difficult, you know.
0:48:02 Yeah.
0:48:08 I hope I kind of catch it sooner, you know, and I certainly, when I catch it, I can get
0:48:09 free of it sooner.
0:48:10 That’s for sure.
0:48:14 That’s always been this thing where it’s like, there’s this perception that someone
0:48:22 that is awakened or enlightened or has this moment is now operating from a plane that gives
0:48:28 them kind of carte blanche to do whatever they want to be this, you know, guru.
0:48:29 I know.
0:48:32 It really screws with people because they follow these individuals.
0:48:38 I think of Wild Wild West, the documentary about Ojo, right?
0:48:43 You read his stuff and you’re like, there’s some valuable awesome teachings here.
0:48:44 For sure.
0:48:48 And then you look at that documentary and you’re like, my God, the guy had like guns
0:48:54 and like was manipulating women and like all these horrible things.
0:48:57 How do you come to terms with that?
0:49:05 Is it that we can have these moments of awakening a guru can and have insights, but then use
0:49:07 them for evil?
0:49:08 Is that a possibility?
0:49:09 It totally is.
0:49:13 I mean, there’s the, actually, if I can use the language, there’s the technical term,
0:49:14 the enlightened asshole.
0:49:15 Oh.
0:49:16 That can happen.
0:49:17 Yeah.
0:49:18 You know.
0:49:25 I mean, okay, what I’d say, Kevin, is we need checks and balances, you know, and so when
0:49:30 it comes to, I mean, for example, actually, why teach?
0:49:37 You know, just because you may have been through a wonderful shift, but maybe you share it
0:49:42 just in the way you live and in your generosity and your compassion.
0:49:50 I used to go to prisons and share meditation or just being with within, may say, did a
0:49:54 fair bit of hospice work and being with people who were dying because it was very easy to
0:50:00 be with people who were dying from that state because you already know that you’ve seen
0:50:07 that life is this beautiful thing, but in a way, it’s not as solid as we think it is.
0:50:09 You know, so it’s kind of okay.
0:50:15 I mean, even after that first experience I had, I could have died that night as a 19-year-old
0:50:19 and knowing my life had been completely fulfilled.
0:50:21 That’s what it gave me for a bit.
0:50:26 What do you tell someone that’s in hospice that’s laying there and says, Henry, where
0:50:27 am I going?
0:50:29 Yeah, or I don’t want to die.
0:50:30 Or I don’t want to die.
0:50:35 I’ve been with somebody who is dying very young, who was a friend, actually, but I just sat
0:50:43 with her and this was in her last days when she still, you know, she didn’t want to go.
0:50:51 But sitting together when she’s in that very still state in the last days, not really drinking
0:51:00 even, you know, just a little spun swab on the lips and very still and actually in that
0:51:07 stillness there was, we could sort of meet, maybe this sounds a bit woo-woo, but when
0:51:12 I was meditating with her, which, you know, I said, let’s meditate, you know, for several
0:51:13 days.
0:51:14 Was she a practitioner as well?
0:51:18 Not really, but kind of wanted to try that.
0:51:26 I mean, you could feel at moments, well, I think I could feel that some part of her met
0:51:33 with something that I was feeling and we sort of joined in it and there was peace.
0:51:37 And so there wasn’t really peace through words, but there was, I think, moments of
0:51:45 peace through know-what and just being in stillness together because, I mean, you know,
0:51:52 in the end, when it gets really near the end, there’s a great release that happens.
0:51:58 And it can be very beautiful even when somebody, you know, we all think this is the wrong time,
0:51:59 this shouldn’t be happening now.
0:52:07 But even then, there can be this surrender, you know, and that surrender is always beautiful.
0:52:08 It’s freeing, right?
0:52:09 It’s freeing.
0:52:10 Because you’re not carrying the burden anymore.
0:52:13 You’re like, I’m surrendered.
0:52:14 Exactly.
0:52:21 And that’s what I think every awakening experience, certainly that I’ve ever had and especially
0:52:30 that bigger one that I’m just briefly referenced that came later, it was a great surrender.
0:52:36 And when Durgan talked about body and mind fall away, that’s sort of what it means.
0:52:42 It’s a kind of total surrender where everything that we think we are and that we understand
0:52:46 the world to be, we just let it go.
0:52:47 Yeah.
0:52:51 And we don’t know how that happens because we actually can’t make it happen, but it can
0:52:52 happen.
0:52:53 And then we’re kind of freed.
0:52:54 Yeah.
0:52:55 I mean, that’s the beautiful thing.
0:52:57 Then what are we freed for?
0:52:58 Well, we’re freed to feel.
0:53:01 Our heart’s open is the main thing.
0:53:05 I mean, that’s why, you know, my new book actually coming out in July is called Original
0:53:12 Love because I’ve taken that phrase “original nature” in Zen or “original face.”
0:53:14 They talk about “see your original face.”
0:53:17 And actually, why see it?
0:53:20 Because of the love it opens up.
0:53:25 So I call it original love, which I think is actually an accurate word.
0:53:30 But wait, coming back to the gurus and stuff, you know, so why not just experience it and
0:53:31 not teach?
0:53:35 I mean, I only started teaching for one reason.
0:53:44 My teachers told me to and they themselves were told by their teachers, you know.
0:53:46 So it’s part of a lineage.
0:53:48 How do they vet you?
0:53:53 How do they say, “Henry, you are now sanctioned to teach Zen,” because this is coming from
0:53:54 Japan, right?
0:53:55 It is.
0:53:56 This is like…
0:53:57 Yeah.
0:53:58 What was that process like?
0:54:01 Like, how can they say, “Okay, this is a good one.
0:54:03 We want to deputize you to be a teacher.”
0:54:08 How do they confirm, “Is it via your understanding of Kouen?”
0:54:11 Actually, it is largely that.
0:54:14 But I would say also, they do it gradually.
0:54:18 Like in our lineage, first you’re, you know, a fairly junior assistant teacher, then you’re
0:54:22 a full teacher, and then you’re an associate master, and then you’re an authentic master.
0:54:24 And it’s step by step.
0:54:28 And those steps might take two decades to go through or something like that.
0:54:35 And so what, but yes, for each kind of grade or whatever of responsibility, which is what
0:54:43 it is, really, it’s about meeting with the master, who’s the abbot of the whole lineage,
0:54:49 with a Kouen, how he can vibe, how clear you are on this Kouen.
0:54:54 If you’re clear on it, it means, if you’re clear on the Kouen in some way, you’re clear,
0:54:56 but you can get clearer and clearer.
0:54:58 There’s more and more that can fall away.
0:54:59 What do they call that?
0:55:01 The clearing of the eye or something like that?
0:55:03 Yeah, they do, actually.
0:55:12 So you basically have this keeper of knowledge, like these Zen masters have a full complete
0:55:21 understanding and a, what do you call it when someone has been a transmission of this knowledge,
0:55:28 and they will sit down with you and they will do checking terms to try and check your knowledge.
0:55:33 And it’s almost like a, what do they call it, a Dharma combat or something like that?
0:55:34 It can be.
0:55:35 It can be.
0:55:36 Yeah.
0:55:37 So do they throw stuff at you?
0:55:40 You have to quickly respond back, like with whatever you’re feeling.
0:55:45 When you respond without thinking, you know, and so I wouldn’t call it a knowledge.
0:55:48 It’s more like an openness.
0:55:50 It’s how open are you?
0:55:57 So the master asked some, some question, you know, and, and if you’re still holding somewhere,
0:55:59 you think, oh, what did I say to that?
0:56:01 And then it’s over.
0:56:02 You didn’t pass.
0:56:04 Because this isn’t going to come out of thought.
0:56:10 And if someone was listening, and I know these are private kind of closed interview sessions
0:56:15 you have, if there happened to be someone in that room when this checking is going on,
0:56:18 would they just be like, what the hell are you guys talking about?
0:56:19 They might.
0:56:20 I don’t know.
0:56:21 I don’t know.
0:56:22 I don’t know.
0:56:23 It’s what your thing is.
0:56:26 You know, the thing I was talking about, there’s great, there’s something greater.
0:56:32 So if you are not plugged into that, right, the questions will come and they won’t make
0:56:33 sense.
0:56:34 Right.
0:56:37 If you think, oh, well, I could try this, you know, but no, but if you’re plugged into
0:56:38 it.
0:56:39 Because you don’t speak that language.
0:56:40 You don’t, you, you aren’t tapped in.
0:56:41 Exactly.
0:56:45 It’s like, I think it’s really like the movie, what’s it called, Arrival.
0:56:47 Do you remember those, the, the Heptapods?
0:56:48 Yes.
0:56:49 You know that movie?
0:56:55 That language in ink, like Zen circles, Zen ink circles, the kind of, they’re speaking
0:57:02 a language that she can’t understand it until she’s been changed, until her view of time.
0:57:03 I got to go watch that again.
0:57:04 That was a good movie.
0:57:05 It’s like a co-entraining.
0:57:10 You’re learning a language, but you can’t learn this language until your whole mind
0:57:12 and heart has gone through a revolution.
0:57:17 So the, actually learning the language isn’t learning a language on the level that you
0:57:18 understand reality.
0:57:21 You have to have a different sense of reality to get the language.
0:57:22 I understand.
0:57:23 That’s what it’s like.
0:57:24 It’s a unique language.
0:57:30 Can you, can you give me an exact, are you allowed to share like the sound of one hand?
0:57:33 Could you give me what a checking question would sound like?
0:57:34 Or would that be?
0:57:38 Well, I mean, the questions would be something like, how big is the sound of one hand?
0:57:40 That would be a question to be asked.
0:57:42 How big is the sound of one hand?
0:57:43 Yeah.
0:57:44 Show me the sound of one hand.
0:57:45 Oh my God.
0:57:46 Oh shit.
0:57:47 How old is the sound of one hand?
0:57:48 Yeah.
0:57:49 The question is like that.
0:57:54 So, I have no answers to that, but you’re saying if I had that shift, I’d be like, well,
0:57:58 this, and you’d be like, okay, next question.
0:58:03 How many coins did you have to pass to become a full accredited Zen master?
0:58:08 Well, it’s not, you know, honestly, I’ve been through that about, I think accurately,
0:58:14 there’s something like 460 coins in our, in our lineages, sort of curriculum.
0:58:15 Which is San Bozen.
0:58:16 San Bozen.
0:58:17 San Bozen.
0:58:24 And I’ve been through it under, you know, supervision with a master, kind of two and
0:58:27 a half times, twice with…
0:58:28 Of all of them.
0:58:29 All of them.
0:58:30 Wow.
0:58:31 That’s a lot of work.
0:58:32 Yeah.
0:58:33 That’s multi days, right?
0:58:35 That’s not like something you do.
0:58:37 No, it’s a decades process.
0:58:38 Yeah.
0:58:41 But so, you know, not everybody has to go into it as deeply as this.
0:58:45 You can get a lot out of it with, you know, even just a few comments.
0:58:50 And, or no comments, it’s not our only methodology, by the way.
0:58:55 You can also just, you can do the kind of open awareness practice as I was describing.
0:59:01 And I’ve got a training now that is really sort of gentler, you know, where it’s building
0:59:04 up the foundations of mindfulness from early Buddhism.
0:59:07 Then you’re moving into discovering connection.
0:59:09 Are you talking about the app that you’re working on?
0:59:10 The app.
0:59:11 Got it.
0:59:12 We got to talk about that.
0:59:13 Yeah.
0:59:17 You know, one of the things that I’m curious about with these koans is, you know, this
0:59:21 is part of a lineage which started in Rinzai.
0:59:22 Is that right, koans?
0:59:23 Yeah.
0:59:24 The Rinzai sect?
0:59:25 Is that correct?
0:59:26 That’s right.
0:59:27 The koan method did.
0:59:28 Right.
0:59:29 Yeah.
0:59:35 And so, one of the things that scares people off, especially in my family, so my family
0:59:39 grew up Lutheran, like hardcore Christian.
0:59:45 I can appreciate the teachings of Jesus, but I’m no longer a quote unquote Christian.
0:59:48 I think he had a lot of great things to say.
0:59:56 If you go back to the core of a lot of those principles and when I told family members I’m
1:00:03 studying Zen, a huge red flag goes up in the religious community saying that’s Buddhism.
1:00:05 That’s praying to another God.
1:00:08 That is another religion.
1:00:15 How much of that is true, and then how compatible is Zen with insert any religion?
1:00:17 Yes, that’s a great question.
1:00:21 In a certain way, Zen is absolutely not a religion.
1:00:26 It’s about changing our hearts and minds, and there are Zen masters who are friends
1:00:32 of mine or even a teacher of mine who’s a practicing Christian, no problem whatsoever.
1:00:39 He says, Zen has made me a better Christian, unquestionably in his mind.
1:00:45 It’s a misconception from the Western view that all religions must be sort of praying
1:00:46 to a deity.
1:00:55 In fact, as late as 1840, you had a Western view that there were only four religions on
1:00:56 earth.
1:01:03 Mohammedanism, as they call it, this is the European view, Judaism, Christianity, and
1:01:04 idolatry.
1:01:05 Four religions.
1:01:11 They just didn’t understand, but now we understand much better that there’s actually a thing
1:01:17 called the spiritual life of a human being, and religions, of course, speak to that, but
1:01:21 you don’t even need a religion to speak to it, to address it.
1:01:27 By spiritual life, I mean exactly the kind of things we’ve been talking about, but sort
1:01:38 of studying the nature of who I am, and how do I nourish my hurt heart, my wounded heart?
1:01:39 How do I help it?
1:01:41 How do I love it more?
1:01:43 How do I find more love in life?
1:01:46 How do I find, is there such a thing?
1:01:54 Could there be such a thing as an intrinsic loving essence in every moment, that somehow
1:01:59 the very gift of this moment has some kind of love in it?
1:02:04 And if there is, could it be that that isn’t really a religious thing?
1:02:09 It’s something in the intrinsic nature of being, in the intrinsic nature of consciousness.
1:02:12 I say yes to all those things.
1:02:15 There is a loving nature right here.
1:02:19 There’s a dimensionless aspect to right here.
1:02:26 There’s a selflessness right here, and all of that is, I mean, I’m not a religious person.
1:02:34 And on the other hand, actually, I’m an atheist, actually, but I might be a pantheist, where
1:02:38 you think God’s everything, if there’s a God, it’s everything, but the idea of a sort
1:02:43 of separate God, I think there’s, I mean, it can be very useful, and of course, a lot
1:02:49 of people find all the support and nourishment they want in that.
1:02:50 No problem.
1:02:54 Do you think of prayer can be a form of meditation?
1:02:55 Yes, I do.
1:02:56 I do.
1:03:01 And I love this idea, you know, in 18th century London, that enlightenment time, there was
1:03:09 this famous figure, Dr. Johnson or Samuel Johnson, he’s a remarkable guy, a real learned, brilliant
1:03:10 guy.
1:03:16 And he said, even if there’s no God, because atheism was a current question at that time,
1:03:19 he said, even if there’s no God, we should still pray.
1:03:20 It’s good for us.
1:03:28 But actually, there’s a value in the sort of a centering and stillness and supplication
1:03:29 and surrender.
1:03:35 I mean, it’s, in some sense, like we do people that don’t pray, get some form of that in
1:03:36 journaling.
1:03:37 Yes.
1:03:41 I’m coming out and saying, this is my thoughts, my feelings, my desires, my hopes, my concerns.
1:03:42 Yes.
1:03:48 You know, they’re not directing it towards a deity, but we’ve already seen the benefits
1:03:49 of that.
1:03:50 Yes.
1:03:51 Studied quite well.
1:03:52 Yes, exactly.
1:03:53 Exactly.
1:03:57 And there’s also research now on chanting, that when a group of people are chanting together,
1:03:58 it’s great.
1:04:03 And Neuroscientifically, they’ve shown that, you know, everybody gets in this fetus state
1:04:04 or whatever.
1:04:05 Oh my God.
1:04:11 I was in Mexico for my wife’s birthday, and they had a ceremony that you could sign up
1:04:14 for that is one of these huts.
1:04:21 It’s called like mezcalani ceremony, something like that, where it’s in a hut of basically
1:04:25 a stone complex, like a dome, and you duck in to go in through a little hole, and they
1:04:30 pile in hot rocks, like over and over again, then they shut the door, and they steam the
1:04:38 crap out of it, and then they chant, and there’s drums, and it’s loud and reverberates in there,
1:04:42 and you sing along, and you start to pick up the lyrics and kind of sing along, these
1:04:46 ancient chants, and then you go around the room and open up about different things that
1:04:51 are going on in your life, love, your gratitude, the things you’re feeling about is a very
1:04:56 powerful thing to chant with a group, especially in that environment.
1:04:57 Sounds like a sweat lodge.
1:04:58 It is.
1:04:59 It is very much.
1:05:03 There was no drugs involved, but it was like, I walked out of there being like, wow, that
1:05:06 was as good as a deep therapy session.
1:05:07 Yeah, absolutely.
1:05:08 Absolutely.
1:05:09 It’s sort of purifying.
1:05:14 Well, actually, I mean, I did a whole phase of life with a lot of sweat lodges in it,
1:05:22 and loved that, but these days, when I sit, when I just meditate, I get that kind of purifying
1:05:23 sense.
1:05:28 Even if it’s been like a somewhat scattered sit, because I’m very loose and open about
1:05:29 it.
1:05:32 I don’t mind if thoughts come, I just let it be as it is.
1:05:35 But I get up from the seat where I’ve been meditating.
1:05:41 However poorly, don’t care, and there’s something sort of cleaner.
1:05:48 There’s a little minor cleansing that, ah, ready.
1:05:53 When you see so many students that come to you and say, I’ve had this cleansing moment,
1:05:58 I’ve had this amazing thing, but for me, it’s after I do an ayahuasca retreat.
1:06:00 And I’ve never done that.
1:06:02 I’ve been tempted by many friends.
1:06:03 Maybe one day I’ll try it.
1:06:04 I don’t know.
1:06:09 But I’ve tried other things as well.
1:06:13 Have you tried these things to see how they compare to the state that you feel?
1:06:18 And then also, how many of your students have done this, and where do you stand on psychedelics
1:06:19 these days?
1:06:20 Yeah, yeah.
1:06:21 It’s interesting.
1:06:25 I mean, I think anything that helps is great, and I think there’s no question about this
1:06:27 therapeutic value of psychedelics.
1:06:28 Oh, for sure.
1:06:33 Especially PTSD, severe depression, there’s some things where I look at, I’m like, why
1:06:34 would you not?
1:06:35 Exactly.
1:06:39 If someone’s going to kill themselves, they don’t have 10 years to meditate to figure
1:06:40 this out.
1:06:41 Exactly.
1:06:42 Like, let’s get them some help right away.
1:06:43 Exactly.
1:06:48 And I’m also, I’m very interested in the combination of meditation and plant medicine.
1:06:50 I think there’s a lot of people looking at that now.
1:06:56 I think strategic tactical use of plant medicine may be very helpful for somebody on a meditative
1:06:57 path.
1:07:00 To achieve awakening, loosen things up.
1:07:01 Loosen things up.
1:07:02 Yeah.
1:07:08 And so on the path to awakening, I think I, I mean, actually, I’ll tell you, I have some
1:07:15 friends who are part of a kind of brotherhood that do occasional psychedelic journeys.
1:07:22 And I was invited recently and a few months back to try the 5MEO thing.
1:07:23 Oh, wow.
1:07:24 Okay.
1:07:26 I’ve never tried that, but I’ve been, I’ve been tempted.
1:07:30 Well, I was curious because yeah, the account sound somewhat like the kind of awakening
1:07:36 that I’ve experienced and, and that I often sort of live in, actually, in a certain sense.
1:07:37 So I tried it.
1:07:41 Is that, one question before you tell me if it’s false.
1:07:47 If I’m in your shoes and I’m like, okay, my day-to-day life is 5MEO DMT, like I’m loving
1:07:52 life, like I’m happy, it would scare the crap out of me that you might go into something
1:07:57 that in a wire gets twisted and all of a sudden you’re kicked out of your, your, you see what
1:07:58 I’m saying?
1:08:02 No, because I’m, you know, my heart’s being broken.
1:08:03 So it’s open.
1:08:06 So I’m not trying to hold anything together.
1:08:07 You know what I mean?
1:08:08 Wow.
1:08:13 The broken heart is, is the first, we have to break our hearts.
1:08:17 Then we can have an open heart and then that means we have a whole heart.
1:08:23 I see it as a sequence, broken heart, open heart, whole heart, but you can’t have a whole
1:08:27 heart unless it’s been broken.
1:08:29 That’s what I sincerely believe now.
1:08:31 So I wasn’t worried about that at all.
1:08:33 So, so I’ll tell you what happened.
1:08:39 I went almost immediately to where I just often go.
1:08:43 Wait, so this is where you, yeah, you’re taking it from a, hold it in for as long as
1:08:46 you can and maybe try and take a second one if you can kind of thing.
1:08:47 No, I think we did two.
1:08:48 Okay.
1:08:51 10 seconds in, 10 seconds out, 10 seconds out.
1:08:58 And I just sort of glide it off to where I quite often go in meditation where basically
1:09:06 there isn’t anything except an intense love in my heart area.
1:09:11 I don’t really, it’s not like I’m very conscious of the body, so it doesn’t feel like this
1:09:19 is my heart area, but somewhere in the middle, this deep, powerful, tender, exquisite, overwhelming
1:09:23 love and nothing else, literally nothing else.
1:09:26 That’s not the experience for everyone that does five AMEO DMT.
1:09:32 Some people see frog gods and all kinds of weird shit, so like you have a very specific
1:09:34 clean experience, sounds like.
1:09:36 Yeah, maybe if I did it, it got to be different.
1:09:41 But I think in a way that I’ve done a lot of kinds of work over the years and I think
1:09:47 probably I’ve got to a point where there’s less to work through.
1:09:53 I mean, I, maybe I’m wrong and life will prove me wrong if I am wrong for sure.
1:09:57 I say those words with a little trepidation, but maybe I’m right, there’s less to work
1:09:59 through.
1:10:10 But what I loved about it was that maybe people can get some taste of this love I’m talking
1:10:17 about that way, where it’s just, we’re just finding that all we’ve got to do is surrender
1:10:23 in this incredible, you know, I don’t, I feel it’s the love of the universe.
1:10:29 I think the universe is one great organ of love that I think, I mean, I don’t know how
1:10:35 we’d ever prove it, but the fact that it’s creating itself and we’re part of it and actually
1:10:41 we do have a special place, I think, even though it’s just evolutionary happenstance,
1:10:47 but we are more aware and we can communicate about being aware.
1:10:52 That is a step up from, you know, grasshoppers, you know, whatever, you know, I mean, in a
1:10:56 sense that the nervous system has got to the point, the neurology has got to the point
1:11:00 where we can be aware that we are aware and we can connect with each other about it.
1:11:05 And I think we can be aware that we are the whole universe, not as an idea, but as an
1:11:06 actual experience.
1:11:16 And do you see that as a kind of like a carrot to get people to embrace a serious practice?
1:11:23 Because in my experience, like, I’ve had so many friends that have done ayahuasca and
1:11:31 they’ve said, “Oh my God, like, I ego, what did they call it, like ego death has occurred.”
1:11:37 And for 48 hours, they got that halo effect and their life is forever good and then two
1:11:41 weeks later, it’s like, well, you know, maybe I’ll do another one next month.
1:11:46 And then all of a sudden, I’ve talked to some friends that are like, you know, 75 sessions
1:11:54 plus deep into this same thing, whereas I wonder to myself, is that just a temporary
1:12:04 state versus a dedicated multi-decade meditation seems like a gradual permanent rewiring versus
1:12:11 a short duration fix, which might be good to say, “Hey, I can see the mountain now.”
1:12:15 A helicopter took me up there and I sort of mount on top and I was like, “Holy shit.”
1:12:19 But then the helicopter quickly took me back down to the base versus what you’re talking
1:12:24 about sounds like a lot more durable in terms of when there’s a deep awakening moment with
1:12:31 Zen that is going to be something where I won’t have to go back to doing a special
1:12:36 ceremony to experience more or less the same thing, but maybe even a deeper level.
1:12:39 I mean, you don’t have to be an Accurator.
1:12:47 You know, I hate to make sort of declarations that might not work out for people.
1:12:52 But I think it is basically, like you said, I think the promise of a long-term meditation
1:13:04 practice can be that you come to experience your ordinary moment, your ordinary awareness,
1:13:10 your ordinary state of things in a very different way, so you therefore don’t need wonderfully
1:13:12 different experiences.
1:13:18 It’s about, I mean, I’m talking about now always, this very, you know, it’s a little
1:13:23 unusual, we’re sitting here chatting with your mics and stuff and having what will
1:13:28 be a public conversation, but that doesn’t matter because actually it’s just two of
1:13:34 us in a room and three of us with an engineer, you know.
1:13:39 And this other dimension is totally present.
1:13:42 In other words, it’s present regardless of the circumstances.
1:13:48 And you don’t have to be in some heightened state or altered state to know it.
1:13:54 It’s just, so I think the path of sort of, and we talked about that word study earlier,
1:14:01 like it is a kind of examination of your own experience.
1:14:06 And over time, just through, you know, through the stillness and through being without words
1:14:12 actually, for a chunk of time each day, of course there may be words in the mind, but
1:14:20 over time it’ll get quieter and you can just be with your ordinary experience with no
1:14:22 outside input.
1:14:31 And gradually it just, it just opens, it softens and tenderizes and opens and we start having
1:14:41 a wider sense of, you know, and it may have sudden jumped in that process.
1:14:52 And but mostly it’s a gradual deepening, broadening, clarifying of what this moment is.
1:14:58 And it’s not unusual, if you sort of mean, so that, you know, it’s not an odd thing we’re
1:14:59 going to.
1:15:03 It’s in the heart of ordinaryness.
1:15:06 That’s a really interesting way that you put it, is it’s not a thing that we’re going
1:15:14 to because one of the things that I worry about is that you, I showed you my library,
1:15:17 I went upstairs a few minutes ago and you pointed out a bunch of those in books that
1:15:19 I have.
1:15:21 That’s book knowledge that I’m picking up, right.
1:15:26 And of course the seats there and that’s, that’s the place I should be focusing my efforts.
1:15:29 But there’s a lot of book knowledge sitting on that shelf, right.
1:15:38 And in some sense, there’s this, this like idea that I can intellectually get my way
1:15:43 to a better state of mind by understanding something.
1:15:49 And one time I heard you experience, someone asked you the question of what are we?
1:15:57 And you said, oftentimes it’s better to ask the question, not, not really what are we
1:16:02 and not hold on to this idea of what we are, but you called it the finger by finger letting
1:16:05 go of who we think we are.
1:16:11 And so it’s the exact opposite of book knowledge and trying to figure something out.
1:16:13 But it’s more about releasing.
1:16:15 Can you explain that a little bit?
1:16:16 Yes.
1:16:22 I mean, first of all, I just want to say books are great for inspiration, for encouragement,
1:16:24 for sometimes course correction.
1:16:29 And it’s actually fine to have some understanding of why I’m doing this, you know, to have that
1:16:35 kind of, you know, knowledge, well, yeah, understanding, view, you know, yeah, there’s
1:16:37 a lot of suffering in the world.
1:16:42 I suffer, friends suffer, the whole community of the human beings is suffering.
1:16:45 Can we create less suffering?
1:16:46 What would it take to do that?
1:16:52 And how can I be part of the project of less suffering and more compassionate world with
1:16:57 less violence, and all the hideous things that go on, by us humans, you know.
1:17:07 So understanding is not bad by enemies, but the process of, of releasing is, you’re absolutely
1:17:08 right.
1:17:15 It’s like, rather than it being, I’m going to find X, it’s more, I’m going to just loosen
1:17:21 my hold on Y, like the letter Y, I mean, you know, X, Y.
1:17:30 So just letting gradually just being softer in my sense of who I am and what things are.
1:17:34 So I suppose it’s a different kind of use of the word understanding, there’s understanding
1:17:39 and sense of like getting oriented for why I’m doing this practice and how this might
1:17:45 work and the practice specific practices I’m doing, how they might work, that kind of understanding
1:17:51 and getting inspired and encouraged, which man we need, you know, it’s a long journey.
1:17:59 But then on the other hand, there’s the way I construct experience is actually conditioned.
1:18:03 And none of us probably would believe that, we think we got it right, I know I’m in here
1:18:10 and I know the world’s out there, well, actually, not so fast, you know, it can be experienced
1:18:17 differently. And it can just show itself very naturally, that actually we’re part of what
1:18:25 we think we’re, we’re outside of or separate from. And that comes through gently releasing
1:18:30 a process of releasing. And it’s true, sometimes it’s sudden, you know, we don’t know how,
1:18:37 but something let go. There’s an openness that we never knew could happen when the world
1:18:44 floods in and, you know, we love it and it loves us and in a most remarkable way. Yeah,
1:18:51 yeah, that’s beautiful. I’m curious to have to after coaching so many students, you know,
1:18:55 when I talk about my practice comes up from time to time with other entrepreneurs or people
1:19:00 that I’m interacting with. And the number one thing people say, I’m sure you’ve heard
1:19:06 this is just I don’t have time. I’m just too busy. Yeah, yeah.
1:19:10 Is it something where you use tell a student like maybe just now isn’t the time for you
1:19:15 to take up a practice or their actual strategies that for someone that has start and stop start
1:19:22 I’ve tried his face for 10 minutes. I’ve done this. What is it that actually works there?
1:19:32 What creates a real sticky lasting multi decade commitment to a practice, especially because
1:19:39 I would say that most practice in my mind, it was like, at least a year in to my commitment
1:19:44 would during COVID. Thankfully, they’re well, not thankfully it was COVID, but thankfully
1:19:49 COVID gave me the time to have practice because I could work from home more. And it wasn’t
1:19:53 like there was this aha moment, but I felt a little bit more at ease. And I was starting
1:19:58 to seem some benefit, but that’s like six, eight, 12 months in. Yeah, most people are
1:20:03 not going to stick around that long. How do you convince people to turn this into something
1:20:08 that they’re not finding time for, but they’re making time for it? Yes, that’s exactly the
1:20:16 right terminology, actually, is that I mean, like any habit, you know, we have to decide
1:20:22 we want it. We have to reinforce it. We have to make it easier. We it’s really helpful
1:20:28 to have some guidance. I think a lot of people actually in early meditation stages benefit
1:20:34 from guided meditations because you can have a better time quicker if you so that’s that’s
1:20:40 where apps come in. Yes, you know, and I don’t know, do we want to talk about 100% so this
1:20:44 is what I’m really excited to talk about. So in full disclosure, you know, I’ve been
1:20:52 friends for a while now, you’ve been a fantastic mentor and coach to me over the years. And
1:20:55 you and I had always kind of like talked about like, wouldn’t it be cool because you started
1:21:00 doing more zoom stuff during COVID. And you were having these classes that were showing
1:21:07 up and they were well attended. And I remember we were thinking like, well, you should build
1:21:11 something, you should build something that’s a little bit because all these apps in my,
1:21:15 you know, as a venture capitalist, when I go out and look at the landscape of apps.
1:21:18 And I don’t want to call anyone out because I think there is a time and place for every
1:21:24 type of app when I see an app that puts you helps put you to sleep and gives you some
1:21:31 really good strategies for sleep. Fantastic. Right. But I had, you know, in you had seen
1:21:37 as a gap in this space where there wasn’t really it was almost like everything was to
1:21:42 choose your own adventure. And with that can cause a little bit of, you know, almost anxiety
1:21:47 in the sense that like, huh, well, where do I go today. And then a lot of her like, well,
1:21:54 how can I do the most viral loop to pull you in? Which is sometimes like, you know, a one
1:21:58 minute meditation. It was like, it felt like a race to the bottom in terms of just do less
1:22:00 and less and less. And we’re going to add journaling in and we’re going to add some
1:22:07 other stuff. And, you know, when I, when I started studying under you was in, I thought,
1:22:13 wow, wow, here’s something, something so much deeper. And for those that crave it, gosh,
1:22:16 wouldn’t it be cool if there was a product that would that would address that market.
1:22:20 And so you went off and created something new. Like, can you tell us about it?
1:22:25 Yes, yes. Well, we do have this app called the way, which is a, we think it’s a first
1:22:31 of a kind meditation app where what what the distinguishing feature of it is that it’s
1:22:37 a single pathway. You don’t really have, I’m afraid so you don’t have a lot of choice.
1:22:46 But the on the plus side, you’re being guided gently day by day, step by step, deeper into
1:22:52 the realms that meditation can open up. But it is very gradual. You know, we, we cover,
1:22:57 we want you to get grounded in mindfulness. So you really know what it is to be present
1:23:03 to your own, how to handle difficult emotion, be with it, how to be more appreciative of
1:23:10 sense experience in the moment and more just more aware of here and now. Then we go into
1:23:14 discovering support and connection, which is a critical part of meditation. You know,
1:23:20 often we think of it as a solitary pursuit. We have ideals like the lone adept in the
1:23:26 cave on the mountain or something. Actually, no, meditation is about drawing support from
1:23:33 many sources, you know, not being alone. Actually, in fact, overall, the journey is one of being
1:23:38 more and more part of the world, belonging more than we also have a sort of stage of
1:23:45 going to flow states in meditation, which is beautiful, where you find, you know, this
1:23:52 present moment is utterly fulfilling. Just without without anything, just being, you
1:23:59 know, it’s beautiful. It’s very, it’s like flow, you know, that people can find in activities,
1:24:06 but you can do it in meditation. And then there’s awakening glimpses of less being less,
1:24:14 less attached to self, less attached to my idea of me little hints of the greater awareness
1:24:22 that’s holding us. It’s always here falling into it more. So it’s a gradual part of tasting
1:24:30 these different flavors and but all leading towards, you know, more of a losing the sense
1:24:38 of separateness. Is your hope that this will be that long term and I know there’s no such
1:24:45 thing as knowing it’s not like you can say, hey, get to lesson number 50 and pop, you’re
1:24:50 going to have this moment, right? Because it can be random. It is, I guess, more or less
1:24:56 random. But when someone would experience this deeper type of awareness and awakening,
1:25:02 is it your hope that this will be an amp that leads to those type of events? Yeah, I hope
1:25:08 with a little I hope it’ll lead to various kinds of shifts and openings and events in
1:25:14 people’s lives, including those. What we’re going to do is actually we loop round and
1:25:21 round. So we go through the mindfulness to awakening path again, and again, deeper and
1:25:27 deeper over time is multi year is the is the plan. And that along the way, you get more
1:25:33 and more little openings, you know, so may not be huge major ones, you know, just little
1:25:41 shifts that that was nice. You know, just, oh, man, I was silent. My mind was silent throughout
1:25:47 that’s it. Well, that’s a really nice thing. It may not be blinding cosmic revelation, but
1:25:54 it’s lovely. Yeah, to find out and this piece kind of carried me through my day totally
1:25:59 on especially when it came from your practice, because you’re doing it. So I want people
1:26:07 to have all these. Yeah, those are beautiful moments. It’s like I’m not as you know, I’ve
1:26:13 not had one of these awakening moments, but I have had these glimpses of just general
1:26:21 ease that was not there prior to having a dedicated practice. Right. And it’s just like
1:26:28 that alone is like worth it all. We’re only talking about like, you know, I’m sitting
1:26:33 25 minutes a day. But you when you start the app, you’re actually you you start people
1:26:37 off around eight to 10 minutes and like 10 minutes a day, 10 minutes a day. Yeah. And
1:26:42 we’ll very gradually invite longer. Yes, if they want it and have talks interspersed
1:26:46 there as well. So it’s like, it’s not just meditation, meditation, meditation, it’s
1:26:50 there’s knowledge as well that comes along the way. Yeah, a little bit of orientation
1:26:56 and guidance and encouragement, which we will need. But it but it actually you can see the
1:27:01 pathway, you know, these four sort of like mountains that we’re going to go through.
1:27:05 And each one has these little sets, we call them retreats. Each retreat has a cluster
1:27:09 of meditation sessions. You can sort of see what’s coming and what you’re going to be
1:27:16 doing. But you have to go step by step. We think it’s a training. We think it’s a training.
1:27:21 I think it’s a fantastic idea because it’s it’s like, I just want and many people, especially
1:27:28 in a busy world, we just want to have just lead us, you know, lead us and like help us.
1:27:33 You’ve been down this path, you know, the twists and turns and like, but having that
1:27:38 that dedicated, like single focus is going to be so key. Do you think you’ll ever tie
1:27:44 this up with like, how much of this do you think is is doable? I know you’ve done a
1:27:51 lot of zoom testing over the years. Yeah, how much of this is doable via video via app?
1:27:55 And then will there ever be a component, and maybe we’re getting a little too far out,
1:28:00 but would there ever be a physical like retreat component to this where you could see members
1:28:05 of the way getting together annually for some type of real in-person event? Yeah, we’d
1:28:09 really like that to happen. I mean, we have the online digital training that I’ve been
1:28:16 offering the last two, three years. It’s actually having its first in-person event in January,
1:28:23 late January. Yeah, the three day. And obviously, we’ll see how that goes. But the moment we
1:28:27 launch it, it was 50% filled. You’re going to need a bigger space. You’re going to take
1:28:32 mountain clouds instead of do some expansion. I think it could really happen. But yeah,
1:28:41 so that will be part of it, probably. But I really want it to be sufficient. My real
1:28:48 hope and intention is that if all they can do is 10 minutes a day, that’s great. And
1:28:56 because of following this curated path, those 10 minutes a day are actually going to lead
1:29:02 you. They’re going to be taking you somewhere. It’s not just same distress every day, which
1:29:08 hopefully we hope you’ll get. It’s actually, you know, you’re really on a journey. And
1:29:15 if that journey is enough for you at 10 minutes a day, terrific. I really hope it will be.
1:29:19 And if you want more, there’ll be ways you can plug into more because our Zoom events
1:29:23 are going to carry on, you know, every other Sunday or something like that in the next
1:29:29 couple of years. So people from the app could always join us if they want that additional
1:29:34 boost, a little bit more time and see other people be in a gathering that’s not physical,
1:29:39 but it is still, it feels weirdly supported, the Zoom gatherings that we’ve been having
1:29:47 with a few hundred people, you know, and that’ll carry on as a resource.
1:29:53 The app is slated to come out late January. This podcast is slated to come out mid to
1:30:00 late January right around the corner. If for some reason the app is not out, I will put
1:30:03 a link in the show notes to the beta link so they can sign up and actually get on the
1:30:08 app early and play because we’ll have the latest beta to provide to people. So we can
1:30:12 have people that are watching, but it should be available in the app store. But the easiest
1:30:19 way to do that is going to be to go over to thewayapp.com. So that’s the website. So if
1:30:24 you want to see the current state of it and have a link to download it will be thewayapp.com
1:30:28 which is, which is awesome. Yeah, and you can get, you can pre-order it and be ready
1:30:31 for it. Yeah. Oh, that’s right. You can see, you can
1:30:36 say, I deliver this to me when it’s, when it’s out. Yeah. Fantastic. It’s going to be
1:30:41 so cool. I’m, I’m thrilled for you, Henry. This is like, and actually I want to touch,
1:30:47 touch on one thing that you may not, that’s a little sensitive. You have not wanted to
1:30:51 be called a Zen master before. I’ve heard you say like, does it make you uncomfortable
1:30:56 to be called a Zen master? Because you are a fully accredited, fully sanctioned, from
1:31:02 Japan, Roshi, which is a true Zen master. Is that not right?
1:31:08 Yes. I suppose it’s, I suppose it is technically true. It’s officially or technically true.
1:31:10 And you’re only one of a few in the United States.
1:31:15 Yeah, it’s true. Well, I think in the, in the US there’s very few actually in the world
1:31:21 there’s only four or five of us sanctioned by this particular lineage in the way, in
1:31:30 that way. But honestly, I, you know, it’s, it’s the word master that suggests I’m really
1:31:38 on top of it infallibly. That’s not the case. And I don’t even aspire to that. I, you know,
1:31:46 like I was saying earlier, the only thing that I try to do and don’t do perfectly by
1:31:54 any means is be fully, fully open hearted, you know, have a very open heart. And what
1:32:01 I call whole hearted. Well, I can, I’m ready to feel whatever wants to be felt.
1:32:05 I need more of that. My wife, my life would be really happy if I had more of that.
1:32:11 Honestly, I think one of the misconceptions also about that word Zen is that it means
1:32:16 some kind of, you’re above it all your, you’re in a serene equanimity that isn’t touched
1:32:23 by the world. I’m rubbish. That’s what it means. It’s, it’s the opposite. It’s being
1:32:29 ready to, I mean, I’ve been so feeling so much around Gaza and, you know, the horrors
1:32:36 there and, and, and, and of course the horrors of October 7, no less. And there’s sufferings
1:32:42 everywhere. I mean, when I think that my grandparents on my father’s side, you know, they were Jewish,
1:32:48 they left Poland, Ukraine in the early 20th century. You know, they had my dad very late
1:32:55 and, you know, and, and they, I mean, late in life. And so they, but they fled the pogroms
1:33:00 all that suffering and misery and persecution to think what, what would they think if they
1:33:06 saw what, what, what’s going on in Gaza right now? The horror that, that’s being perpetrated
1:33:11 on the inhabitants there. And the idea that that kind of remorseless violence is going
1:33:18 to achieve anything good. You know, it’s, and I feel it. I’m, I’m, I’m, I’m, I’m sure
1:33:27 it many of us do, but I want it, I want to feel it. And I want to be, you know, whatever,
1:33:36 whatever the extent this might be an offering that will reduce suffering just a little bit.
1:33:44 Yeah. It’s, it’s all I hope for it. I think the more that, the more of us, the more we
1:33:55 find peace in ourselves and, and an ease and a wholeheartedness, you know, frankly, a love
1:34:02 that is non conditional and unconditional love, the more, the more of us taste that and the
1:34:11 more that we do taste it, I think the better. It’s, it’s not a, it’s not enough, but it’s
1:34:16 something. Yeah. And I think, you know, because we got to do something, you know, this, we’re
1:34:22 such a top top species. Yeah. You know, we’re in the most amazing species in, in our way,
1:34:26 but we’re so messed up. Oh man. This toxicity that we carry is.
1:34:33 I think about AI and I’m just like, it’s going to usher in so many amazing things and also
1:34:40 so many destructive things. And so as a technologist, I’m like sitting with that and then it’s, it’s
1:34:46 a lot when you can see and you know what’s coming in the next five years and it’s going
1:34:48 to be crushing for a lot of people. Right.
1:34:53 And it’s also going to cure cancers. Like, and so it’s like, but why couldn’t what we’re
1:35:01 doing with the way harness some of that and be, I mean, imagine if AI can tell us quicker
1:35:06 how to help people get these shifts. I’ve, I’ve, I’ve thought about that deeply because
1:35:15 one of the things that I know is coming is taking in large corpus of data and feeding
1:35:21 it into AI and being able to ask questions of that data in real time.
1:35:28 So you have a podcast, we should also talk about the mountain cloud Zen Center podcast.
1:35:32 It’s where you do your Dharma talks, which are essentially talks that you do to your community.
1:35:36 So it’s a very kind of intimate thing, meaning like you’re, you’re actually Zendil community.
1:35:41 They’re not like stage talks. They’re like, no stage. Yeah, they’re, but they go to thousands
1:35:46 of people tune into us, but they’re fantastic. I listened to, I’ve listened to a lot of them
1:35:49 when I jump the sauna, I put one on and I’m always, I’m always like, I wish I had a pen
1:35:54 and you read some of those nuggets, but the cool thing about that is in the next year
1:35:59 to two years, maybe even less, we’ll be able to feed all of that content into AI, right?
1:36:04 They will understand it all. And I can have a conversation with you, the AI version of
1:36:09 you based on what you’ve said throughout the years in your talks.
1:36:14 And so that at some point will make its way into your app as well, right?
1:36:21 And so that’s a really fascinating idea where I’m going to say, gosh, Henry, you know, I
1:36:26 had one too many drinks last night. I’m in struggle with alcohol. What are your thoughts?
1:36:30 And you’ll somewhere in one of your talks, you know, I’m just making this up, but like
1:36:34 there might be a point where you referenced and had a conversation about that. It can
1:36:41 bring the clips in your perspective in, hopefully in an accurate way, and really provide people
1:36:45 with some guidance. Speaking of which, I got to touch on that real quick. One of the funniest
1:36:50 things and biggest shifts for me, I was talking to you about drinking alcohol one time and
1:36:54 I was like, I like some champagne. I like to have a drink at night, especially after
1:36:59 a long day, you know, and I’m like, Henry, do you drink? Like what’s going on? And you
1:37:04 were like, you said something to the effect that it makes it dulls life down to a point
1:37:10 where it’s less enjoyable if you were to get drunk, like where your everyday life is better
1:37:14 than what a drink can provide for you. Did I get that right?
1:37:19 Yeah, I think that I think that’s like, if you drink, you’re like, this is not as good
1:37:23 as what I’m experiencing without drinking. I’m just checking that out. I think that’s
1:37:31 basically true. On the other hand, I actually love and I haven’t done it in, I don’t do
1:37:37 it anymore actually, but I would love a glass of beer, you know, so it’s not forbidden,
1:37:41 but it’s just like you don’t take it to an extreme. No, I would get that. There’s a
1:37:46 little buzz, you know, for the first little while called the champagne effect, like the
1:37:54 you first have that first sip, exactly. That’s enjoyable. But I mean, there’s no sense that
1:38:01 I need that because you used to drink. I mean, I started adult life as a, you know, as I
1:38:06 said, you’re in the UK, right? So in the UK, and that whole literary scene was just, it
1:38:12 happened in the pub. Yeah, basically. And there was heavy drinking. And I was part of
1:38:16 that. What happens when you get to a certain level of Zen where that falls away? Because
1:38:20 your advice to me one time, as I said, Oh, I should, I should quit drinking or I should
1:38:24 limit it. And you said, Kevin, if you practice, it will kind of naturally. Yeah, exactly.
1:38:28 You don’t really need to make it go away. He just won’t want to as much. You don’t have
1:38:34 to cut it out. I mean, my master in Japan, who’s, you know, has been a very successful
1:38:40 businessman all his life. Yeah. He drinks, you know, Japanese business culture is notorious
1:38:44 for drinking. Right. I don’t think he goes heavy. Yeah. But I’ve been out and done some
1:38:51 deals in Japan and it’s always over beers and Japanese whiskey in a smoky, light filled
1:38:56 room, you know, right? Well, I imagine he must have been there. Yeah. But I mean, I’ve
1:39:02 never, I think these days, you know, he is very light, but he does, he does have the
1:39:08 old glass of wine. Yeah. It likes a glass of champagne. And it’s, but it’s, you know,
1:39:13 it’s not a problem. It’s sort of a, it’s not in order to feel better, we could say like
1:39:19 that. Interesting. Like the, actually, if you, I mean, he’s told me that he’ll come
1:39:27 back from work, tired, maybe a little stressed, just have a sit. And it all drains out. And
1:39:33 it’s, he says, if he’s just been in a spa or something, it’s drained out. Ah, lovely.
1:39:39 It’s interesting to say that because that is my one rule that I have where I say to myself,
1:39:43 let’s say it’s six o’clock. And let’s just say it was a brutal day. It’s like back to
1:39:48 back meetings, communities blowing up in some weird way, something’s happening. I feel
1:39:53 emotionally drained. Yeah. And I haven’t had a sit. Yeah. I will make it a rule where
1:40:01 I say, yes, that glass of champagne is downstairs, but I’m going to sit first. Yeah. I’m good.
1:40:06 And I, and I sit first. Yes. And I do it. And, you know, often more than not, I will
1:40:09 go down and say, Hey, we’re having a meal. I’m going to have that glass of champagne
1:40:15 still. Yes. But at least I, it’s like a forcing, like I said, I’m going to take care of myself
1:40:21 first on that level. That’s great. Yeah. That’s very good. Very good. Good. Gold start. That’s
1:40:25 the right thing to do. Okay. Because you get, you get the, you actually get, you get rid
1:40:30 of the need. And then you can go and enjoy it. Right. You know, which is even better.
1:40:36 Yeah. And there’s also that, that weird pleasure in deferring a pleasure. Right. You know, that
1:40:42 we show we’ve got the self-control to wait. Yes. And that actually feels good. Yes. Do
1:40:46 you know what I mean? Yeah. There’s a sort of, like it’s a little bit stoic, maybe that
1:40:51 you just don’t actually just reach for it the instant you want it. And then there’s, there’s
1:40:57 actually this pleasure in, Oh yeah, I can control myself. Right. That’s, that feels good.
1:41:01 Yeah. Oh, 100%. Yeah. It’s just, it’s like a, it’s a feather on the cap of like, I made
1:41:08 it to that. I didn’t have to immediately jump into that. And it’s funny, my therapist has
1:41:14 this thing where like, I, I, she said, great, you may want a drink or you may want, or you
1:41:19 have an insert anything, like a fear of turbulence or whatever it may be. Yeah. Yeah. Just sit
1:41:24 with it for a minute and just, just observe it. Right. And just journal about it. How
1:41:29 are you feeling? Where is the feeling? Yes. Well, where is it coming up? And she goes,
1:41:33 we finished that for 10 minutes. Go have that drink if you want it. Yes. But, but you’ve
1:41:38 noted it down. Yeah. And, and, and there’s something to that that leads to, I think it’s
1:41:44 slowly an understanding of the motivations that are hidden behind why you’re driven to
1:41:48 do that in the first place. Exactly. That’s a great therapist. Yeah. She’s amazing therapist.
1:41:52 And that’s really compatible with meditation where we’re getting more aware. Yeah. So that
1:41:58 would include awareness of our sort of impulses and yearnings. Yeah. Wanting this, wanting that.
1:42:03 Couple, I know we got to go and wrap things up, but I have a couple really kind of insane
1:42:12 questions for you that I wanted to run by you just because it’s stuff that I’ve come
1:42:18 across over the last couple of years in the world of Zen. And I’ve said to myself, how
1:42:26 is this possible? And I know anytime we read any type of historic, especially, you know,
1:42:31 texts that are thousands of years old, there can be either parables that are like exaggerated
1:42:34 or just things that like, you’re like, okay, that person didn’t chop off that person’s
1:42:39 arm when they’re telling the story about, you know, about greed or whatever like that.
1:42:45 It was just an example, right? Yeah. And so I want to know if this stuff, from your point
1:42:51 of view, if there’s any truth to it, or do you just consider it to be part of the lore
1:42:58 of what Zen is, right? Yeah. They’re in the three pillars of Zen. I’m sure you read the
1:43:03 book if you’re familiar with it. There is a quote here that I wanted to read to you
1:43:07 that I just didn’t quite, wasn’t able to wrap my head around. Okay. Let me see if I can
1:43:10 shed light on it or not. Yeah, exactly. I mean, maybe you can’t, but like, I just want
1:43:14 to know if they’re like, given your background, like, is there anything here that you can
1:43:21 comment on? Yeah. It goes something like this, it says, and this is a bit into the book,
1:43:30 it says the second of the five kinds of Zen is called Gido. Gado. Gado, okay. Gado literally
1:43:36 means literally an outside way. And then it goes on to say, another feature of Gado Zen
1:43:45 is that is often practice in order to cultivate various supernormal powers or skills. Or to
1:43:52 master arts beyond the reach of the ordinary person. An example of this is the Tempu Nakamura,
1:43:57 the man who I mentioned earlier, it is reported that he can make people act without moving
1:44:04 a muscle or saying a word. The aim of the Emma method is to accomplish such feats as walking
1:44:12 barefoot on sharp sword blades or staring at sparrows that they become paralyzed. All
1:44:19 these miraculous exploits are brought about through the cultivation of joriki, the particular
1:44:26 strength or power which comes from strenuous practice of mind concentration. Can you paralyze
1:44:36 sparrows with your mind? Have you ever seen Kung Fu, the old TV show from the 1970s?
1:44:40 Oh yeah, of course. Grasshopper and all that. Oh, those are fun to watch just like on the
1:44:45 background, leave them playing. That’s what they’re talking about there. Really, I mean,
1:44:51 no, they did not part of Zen. Okay, so it’s like, it’s kind of, you know, it’s just, it’s
1:44:58 just legend. Okay, I mean, but on the other hand, it’s kind of cool that maybe, I mean,
1:45:03 you know, in Kung Fu, look at the way the blind old guy could fight, kill 14 brigands,
1:45:07 you know, without even seeing them. Do you feel any of that is true? Do you get any sense
1:45:14 of like, you mentioned earlier this idea that, you know, there’s no separation. Yeah. If
1:45:20 there’s no separation, is there control of external things? But the thing is, but the
1:45:25 thing is, if you think in a way, if you’re thinking of controlling something, that you’re
1:45:33 separate from it. So I think this discover you with your Zen knowledge. That’s not me.
1:45:37 Right. It’s like, it’s more like, if you’re, if you’re really in this experience of oneness,
1:45:44 they sometimes, you know, you’re not there. Right. So you’re separating yourself. So it’s
1:45:51 not really oneness. I get it. Yeah. And but I think it’s, I think I do have read about,
1:45:56 I don’t know, I’ve just read the old story of people who did sort of manipulate meditation
1:46:03 to, to get some kind of dark power or something like that, which that sort of sounds like
1:46:08 maybe that’s not particularly dark, but paralyzing a sparrow seems relatively innocent versus
1:46:11 some of the kind of less of a sparrow and you’re like, what the hell’s going on again
1:46:18 in the movie? Yeah, well, true. But, um, you know, did you see that movie, Spring, Summer,
1:46:22 Winter? Yes, whatever. That’s fantastic. I love that movie. I love that too. But remember
1:46:27 how that guy could make the boat move? Yes. You know, it’s more like, I think we’re into
1:46:32 the realm of was it crouching tiger hidden dragon? Yeah. You know, it’s Kung Fu really.
1:46:37 Right. You know, it’s more in that realm. Okay. I wanted to go check that with you.
1:46:43 And this one is, this one’s a little bit harder because it is real in that, um, I have the
1:46:53 actual, uh, notes on it here. So in, in the 1990s, 1992, there was a very famous alternative
1:46:59 rock band still very famous called Rage Against the Machine. Um, they had a cover, an album
1:47:08 cover that looks like that. So, oh man. Yeah, that is, is that Vietnam? That is a man is
1:47:18 that’s, that’s in Vietnam, uh, named Tiquan Duc. Uh, and on June 11th, 1963, he was protesting
1:47:24 the persecution of Buddhists by the US backed South Vietnamese government. Yeah. Um, the
1:47:29 picture went, you know, the equivalent of whatever viral would be today. Yeah. He, the
1:47:35 story goes something like this. He was protesting hundreds of people around, pulled out a mat,
1:47:41 dump gasoline on his head, struck the match on his, on his own will. Yeah. And lit himself
1:47:48 on fire. Yeah. Everyone that witnessed it, not a single scream, not a single screech,
1:47:57 nothing burned for 11 minutes, fell over backwards and it passed away. Yeah. Um, that is an extreme
1:48:04 sacrifice. It is an extreme statement, but it is also as someone that burns the tip of
1:48:11 my finger on a stove and freaks out because of the sheer pain of even a quarter inch of
1:48:20 a severe burn. Yeah. How can someone’s brain shut off pain like that? Yeah. Well, I would
1:48:30 guess that it didn’t shut off pain, but it didn’t mind pain. In other words, he had developed
1:48:38 what we call equanimity, which is not mind where you’re not trying to have nice experiences
1:48:43 and you’re not trying to push away unpleasant experiences by getting into a state of very
1:48:48 deep Samadhi. You know, I was talking about those flow states in meditation, they’re known
1:48:56 as Samadhi or Jhana as well. If you get very, very, very, very thoroughly absorbed and you
1:49:03 might with the additional impetus of the cause of doing something for intensely suffering
1:49:09 people, this was not for him. This was for the whole nation than the whole communities
1:49:16 that he felt he was representing and belonged to, who were suffering intensely and for their
1:49:23 sake. In other words, it’s selfless from the start. So with less self, we, we, I mean,
1:49:30 I’m not, I have no idea about that kind of intense pain, but I can sort of understand
1:49:37 that it might well be possible. Yeah. For a very seasoned meditator. That’s just
1:49:41 unbelievable. On behalf of others, you know, really, really
1:49:47 sacrificing themselves. And we can argue about, well, is that a, is that a good kind of self-sacrifice
1:49:49 or whatever we could, you know, who knows. Sure.
1:49:55 But aside from that, just how to do it, I mean, it’s a remarkable, it’s a most, it’s,
1:50:02 it’s an extraordinary act to be so, so giving up of your own life. I mean, there’s the stories
1:50:08 in the, there’s this, there’s these tales about Buddha, you know, that developed sort
1:50:14 of in the course of Buddhist history and about, they had the reincarnationist view back then.
1:50:19 So there’s stories about his former lives and that he lived and there’s one of them
1:50:25 where he was a rabbit who came across a family that was starving and they had a little fire,
1:50:31 they were huddled around and in this tale, he just leapt onto the fire so they could
1:50:37 eat, you know, that, that, I mean, you know, whatever, you know, there’s sort of folk tale
1:50:43 or whatever it is, but it’s, it’s a similar sense of that, I’m going to give up my life.
1:50:49 Your life is what I care about. Wow. And that’s, that’s the spirit of, I can’t claim to be
1:50:56 anywhere near there, but that’s the spirit of what we call a bodhisattva in, in the word,
1:51:01 the meaning of the word changed over time, but the later meaning of the word from about
1:51:08 2000 years ago onwards has been a being who is more concerned with the well-being of others
1:51:15 than of themselves. And that’s, I mean, it’s actually, it’s an incredible thing to aspire
1:51:22 to, you know, just a, especially in our culture, whereas it’s so counterintuitive that there
1:51:29 might be a path to happiness that wasn’t about getting more for me, but more about helping
1:51:36 others, helping others flourish, to be joyous at the successes of others and to be wishing
1:51:43 them having their hearts fulfilled and, and meeting their hearts desires, wanting that
1:51:50 and wanting others to be free from suffering, you know, as opposed to my suffering, my wanting,
1:51:56 you know, you know, that what a shift that might be. And it’s, it’s very, you know, it’s,
1:52:03 it’s not what we’re conditioned in our modern world is to, to really regard as a way to,
1:52:08 to happiness, but it could be that we’ve really got it back to front, that our normal way
1:52:16 of trying to get happy won’t actually ever work. It will get a hit of, you know, I got
1:52:22 this great and then the hits gone and we need it again. But those aren’t real happiness.
1:52:27 You know, it’s, I remember hearing the Dalai Lama just, you know, who was, he actually
1:52:34 came to Santa Fe one. And he, he was really excited to know about skiing. And a friend
1:52:41 of mine actually was, was his sort of guide, the 24 hours or something that he was in town.
1:52:46 And he was very sort of, he shyly asked after he’d done various, we’ve got these sort of
1:52:51 meetings, meeting the mayor or the this or that, you know, do you think we might be able
1:52:56 to go out the mountain? I want to see the ski, ski slope. Santa Fe has a ski slope.
1:53:01 And, and so they arranged it. And, and, and then, you know, he, he rode the chairlift,
1:53:08 he rode. And then afterwards he was in the, they went to have a cup of hot chocolate or
1:53:13 something in the cafeteria. And he was, he, he wanted to talk to the, the waitress, you
1:53:18 know, you know, how are you, my dear? What do we do? Just engage her. And she said, I’m
1:53:23 so honored to meet you. Can I ask you a question? You know, what, what is the meaning of life?
1:53:28 What is the purpose of life? He said, oh, that’s very easy. Purpose of life, meaning of life
1:53:35 is to be happy. But how to be happy? That’s not so simple. This is, this was recorded
1:53:41 in the newspaper, reading it. And, you know, the point is that the ways that we think we’ll
1:53:49 find happiness, we might have it back to front, where we think by getting what we want and
1:53:54 pushing away when we don’t want, that’s the path to happiness. And it’s very natural and
1:54:02 very understandable. But it could be that there’s another way that’s actually deep, which requires
1:54:09 us to let go of it. And then we find that we’re part of something already, which gives us
1:54:15 basically an infinite amount of happiness, an infinite happiness. In other words, we
1:54:21 don’t know the end of the happiness that can come when we release our hold on our sense
1:54:28 of self. It’s actually literally a limitless happiness. I really, I find that I find that
1:54:35 to be like, it speaks so deeply to me because, you know, I’ve as as a technologist and a
1:54:41 builder over the years, I’ve been very fortunate and that I’ve made some right decisions and
1:54:49 had some good monetary wins. And every time I have bought something, especially in my
1:54:55 call it early thirties, where I just always hadn’t had a windfall from some company going
1:55:03 public or something. And I would immediately follow up with something physical, you know,
1:55:10 and you get this buzz for 48 hours. And then you realize it’s just so hollow. And it’s
1:55:20 just a show. And it’s like, what about that? It’s just so silly sometimes how we get caught
1:55:26 up in things. And then that later was social media. How can I get more followers? How can
1:55:32 I get more likes? How can I get more of this and that? And we got to be careful. And I’m
1:55:39 glad we have a guy like you to help us disconnect from some of that and rethink that because
1:55:43 it’s so, it’s so important. It is. But, you know, Kevin, it’s not silly in the sense that
1:55:51 we is, you know, millions of years of evolution. We like the shiny thing. We like except the
1:55:56 shiny thing with social media is every time you open the app due to the algorithm. I have
1:56:03 this, I have this crazy theory that like, so if you think about, imagine, like, remember
1:56:08 like it was called the nineties, and you go out with a friend and you hang out and something
1:56:13 funny comes up, and you just laugh your ass off because you’re with a good buddy, right?
1:56:19 And it was a fantastic time. Or you’re watching the, you know, dating myself at the 11 o’clock
1:56:23 news or whatever, and you see something ridiculous that makes you laugh. And then there was that
1:56:26 funny show, America’s Funny Home Videos that came out where you’d see more of these funny
1:56:31 clips. And it was a really well watched show because people liked to laugh at the hilarious
1:56:37 person falling off the trampoline or whatever it may be. Then today, you have a product
1:56:46 that you open up, and it literally is putting the absolute most viral content specifically
1:56:52 designed for you and making you laugh over and over. You’re having one of the best days
1:57:00 of your life every 30 seconds, something that you used after weeks for every 30 seconds.
1:57:03 And then when you go without that and put that device away, you’re like, well, wait
1:57:07 a second, I want to have more of the best day of my life. I need to pick this up.
1:57:14 So I can get that stimulation, that aha moment, that laughter, that, you know, connection.
1:57:17 And it’s just like, I’m really concerned about that.
1:57:20 Yeah. So it’s just playing to this addictive nature.
1:57:21 Yes.
1:57:22 Of wanting to fix.
1:57:23 Yes.
1:57:24 Wanting to fix.
1:57:25 So, so how do we counteract that?
1:57:26 Right.
1:57:29 I think, honestly, putting an app on a phone, which people are using all the time, that
1:57:33 is taking them on a journey back to themselves.
1:57:34 Yes.
1:57:37 Satisfaction is already here.
1:57:38 Yeah.
1:57:45 The satisfaction that we can find, I mean, the fulfillment, like we’re needing no more
1:57:50 than we can find in just being. That’s what the meditative path is really for. It’s that
1:57:59 so you don’t need, actually, it’s to do away with need. Yes, you need more to a food anymore.
1:58:06 But basically, what if that’s it, right? You could just be, I mean, do you see the difference?
1:58:10 You don’t need to take in anything, whether it’s, whether it’s champagne or social media
1:58:16 or Ferrari, you just, you might, I never bought a Ferrari for the record. I never bought a
1:58:17 Ferrari.
1:58:24 Well, for the record, you don’t need, you know, sorry, you don’t need those things because
1:58:28 you’re already, you might choose it, yeah, but you don’t need it.
1:58:29 Right.
1:58:36 Because you’re already totally fulfilled. That’s, that’s what is, I mean, and this is
1:58:44 not some pie in the sky or like, are you going to do 40 years of RDS training? No, it can
1:58:50 be found relatively easily with the right guidance. That’s, that’s what we’re trying
1:58:52 to, that’s what I’m trying to offer, Rick.
1:58:59 I’m so excited for it. Well, let’s wrap things up. I wanted to plug a couple of things. You
1:59:05 know, like we said, the way app.com is the place to go to check out this app. It’s going
1:59:11 to be awesome. Also, you’ve previously written a book that goes into great detail about your
1:59:17 experience of awakening and, and just your history and trials and tribulations and what
1:59:23 led you to this path called One Blade of Grass. Obviously you can get this on Amazon. I’ll
1:59:28 put a link to it in the show notes at KevinRose.com. So people can find it there. Fantastic book.
1:59:32 And then more importantly, well, not, I don’t know about more broadly, but equally as important,
1:59:37 you have a new book coming out. What’s the publication date for that? July 9th. July
1:59:40 9th. Okay. So if you’re waiting and you want your Henry Fix, you got the app and you got
1:59:44 this book here and you got the Mountain Cloud Zen Center podcast, which I’ll link up in
1:59:49 show notes. And that’s called Original Love. That’s right. OriginalLove.org. Oh, sorry.
1:59:54 Two things. Yeah. The book, Original Love, July the 9th from Harper One. Is that preordered
1:59:57 now or no? Yeah, you can preorder it. Great. They’ve just put it up on Amazon. Okay. And
2:00:05 it’s got a great cover, by the way. And then there’s also meditation training, OriginalLove.org.
2:00:10 Which is also, you can check out for Sunday morning sitting. That’s fantastic. I’ve always
2:00:15 kind of wanted to have a proper Sunday morning. As someone that grew up going to church in
2:00:22 Sunday morning, it’s nice to have a spiritual day reset. It’s just like, it’s a beautiful
2:00:28 thing. I know. And I really feel a loss in that. And then not having that after giving
2:00:34 up the organized religion kind of world. So… That’s partly what we made that program for,
2:00:39 which is to have a Sunday morning thing. Awesome. Well, Henry, thank you so much. It’s been an
2:00:44 honor and a pleasure wishing you so much success with these new adventures. And I have no doubt
2:00:50 there’ll be a huge hit because your content is absolutely fantastic. You’re very kind.
2:00:54 Kevin, thank you so much. It’s been just a real joy to get time with you.
2:00:58 Well, let’s get you back on the show after you launched the book. And talk again. I’m
2:01:03 sure we’ll have a whole slew of new questions based on the book. So…
2:01:04 I’d love that.
2:01:05 All right. Thank you.
2:01:05 It’s so good to be with you.
2:01:06 – Thank you, dear.