How to Fix Our Climate Crisis — with Dr. Ayana Elizabeth Johnson

0:00:04 There’s over 500,000 small businesses in B.C. and no two are alike.
0:00:05 I’m a carpenter.
0:00:06 I’m a graphic designer.
0:00:09 I sell dog socks online.
0:00:12 That’s why B.C.A.A. created one size doesn’t fit all insurance.
0:00:15 It’s customizable, based on your unique needs.
0:00:19 So whether you manage rental properties or paint pet portraits,
0:00:23 you can protect your small business with B.C.’s most trusted insurance brand.
0:00:26 Visit bcaa.com/smallbusiness
0:00:29 and use promo code “RADIO” to receive $50 off. Conditions apply.
0:00:33 Support for the show comes from ServiceNow,
0:00:35 the AI platform for business transformation.
0:00:37 You’ve heard the big hype around AI.
0:00:41 The truth is, AI is only as powerful as the platform it’s built into.
0:00:45 ServiceNow is the platform that puts AI to work for people across your business,
0:00:48 removing friction and frustration for your employees,
0:00:50 supercharging productivity for your developers,
0:00:54 providing intelligent tools for your service agents to make customers happier.
0:00:57 All built into a single platform you can use right now.
0:00:59 That’s why the world works with ServiceNow.
0:01:03 Visit servicenow.com/ai4people to learn more.
0:01:09 Will the VP debate move the needle
0:01:11 in what’s shaping up to be a neck-and-neck election?
0:01:14 You never know in advance what will be the thing that matters
0:01:15 and the thing that doesn’t matter.
0:01:19 But Donald Trump will be almost 80
0:01:23 and J.D. Vance will be one cheeseburger away
0:01:25 from the presidency should they win.
0:01:27 I’m Preet Bharara.
0:01:30 And this week, the Atlantic magazine’s David Frum
0:01:32 joins me on my podcast Stay Tuned with Preet
0:01:35 to break down what happened at the debate.
0:01:36 The episode is out now.
0:01:38 Search and follow Stay Tuned with Preet
0:01:40 wherever you get your podcasts.
0:01:46 Episode 317, 317 is here.
0:01:49 It goes along to the City of Indianapolis in 1917.
0:01:51 The U.S. entered World War I
0:01:54 and the first jazz record was released.
0:01:55 Chew store, I was stuck on an island
0:01:56 with one gun and two bullets.
0:01:58 There was Hitler, Stalin, and Kenny G.
0:02:00 What did I do?
0:02:01 I shot Kenny G twice.
0:02:06 Go, go, go!
0:02:17 Welcome to the 317th episode of The Prop G-Pod.
0:02:20 In today’s episode, we speak with Dr. Ianna Elizabeth Johnson,
0:02:22 a marine biologist, policy expert, writer,
0:02:25 and co-founder of the nonprofit Think Tank Urban Ocean Lab.
0:02:27 How did people even end up starting
0:02:29 a Think Tank Urban Ocean Lab?
0:02:31 Jesus.
0:02:32 And I have a podcast.
0:02:35 We discussed with Dr. Ianna Elizabeth Johnson
0:02:37 her new book, What If We Get It Right?
0:02:39 Visions of Climate Futures.
0:02:40 I enjoyed this conversation.
0:02:41 We hear about what needs to change,
0:02:43 the impact of consumerism, the ocean,
0:02:47 and how to reach people who don’t care about climate change.
0:02:49 I am really discouraged over the last few years
0:02:52 that climate change has become or just, basically,
0:02:55 environmentalism has become so politicized.
0:02:57 Teddy Roosevelt was kind of the first famous environmentalist,
0:03:00 at least in the US, and he was a Republican.
0:03:02 And all of a sudden, we’ve decided
0:03:06 that to be an environmentalist means you’re a Democrat.
0:03:10 And to be a science denier makes you a Republican.
0:03:13 And as a result, everyone wants to appeal to the extreme,
0:03:16 such they can get on TikTok and raise more money.
0:03:18 And it’s just ridiculously unproductive and nothing gets
0:03:20 done, and if you can just do math,
0:03:23 you can see that the world is slowly but surely cooking.
0:03:27 But at the same time, we have to be thoughtful and realistic
0:03:31 about, in my view, what is going to be effective versus just
0:03:32 being right.
0:03:33 In one of the things that–
0:03:36 and we were just talking off mic with our producers.
0:03:39 Fossil fuels are just the ultimate arbitrage
0:03:42 in terms of consumerism and economic growth.
0:03:45 And that is whether it’s Bitcoin,
0:03:47 whether it’s your Nespresso machine,
0:03:49 whether it’s your devices that are plugged in all day long,
0:03:52 whether it’s the ability to buy more and more shit for less
0:03:55 and less money, which is what innovation and productivity
0:03:57 offers, responds.
0:04:00 The next generation is going to use more energy.
0:04:01 That is what they do.
0:04:04 Energy consumption is a function of wealth.
0:04:06 And fortunately, over the medium and long term,
0:04:08 the world just gets wealthier and wealthier,
0:04:11 which means they’re going to consume more energy.
0:04:13 And the notion that these younger generation
0:04:15 is going to call on their better angels
0:04:18 and do away with consumerism, or that we’re not
0:04:21 going to find different ways to use this energy that
0:04:22 are really exciting.
0:04:23 And we will opt for those.
0:04:27 I just think it’s sort of irrational and polyanna
0:04:29 to think that this new generation is
0:04:30 going to start investing in renewables
0:04:33 unless they think they’ll make more money, as opposed
0:04:35 to limiting their selection set of investments.
0:04:37 And I don’t think we’re going about this the right way.
0:04:40 I think we need to depoliticize it,
0:04:43 talk about opportunities for new technologies,
0:04:44 or how we can make money.
0:04:49 What’s realistic in terms of pricing, beef production,
0:04:52 or pricing fossil fuels to their actual externalities?
0:04:54 But I worry that we are going about this the wrong way,
0:04:58 and using it as more as a signal for what
0:04:59 your political beliefs are, and not
0:05:01 having a productive conversation.
0:05:05 OK, I just said a whole lot of nothing, a whole lot of nada.
0:05:07 Anyways, what’s happening?
0:05:09 Let’s talk about something a little less discouraging.
0:05:11 I’m back in the South of France.
0:05:12 That’s right.
0:05:16 The dog is barking, and when I’m in France,
0:05:18 I can just take a big dump anywhere,
0:05:19 because that’s what dogs do.
0:05:21 That’s an image.
0:05:23 That’s an image.
0:05:24 In the South of France, it’s raining today,
0:05:26 but it’s still lovely.
0:05:27 It’s lovely here.
0:05:29 I just love being in France, because the people here
0:05:32 just have a passion for beauty and beautiful things,
0:05:35 whereas the butter knife, or the food, or the way they–
0:05:38 the towels in your hotel room, whatever it might be,
0:05:41 they just have a way with stuff.
0:05:42 So I’m happy to be here.
0:05:47 I did a birthday party my 50th in Aberdeen, Scotland,
0:05:48 at the Five Arms.
0:05:49 I absolutely love Scotland.
0:05:51 I think it’s this undiscovered gem,
0:05:54 and convinced about 90 of my closest friends
0:05:57 to make the trip to Aberdeen, and hang out with me.
0:06:00 And it was absolutely wonderful, although I
0:06:02 started planning the trip two years ago.
0:06:04 And quite frankly, I was very anxious.
0:06:07 And the last couple weeks, I’ve been just
0:06:09 ridiculously fucking stressed out,
0:06:11 because when 90 people agree to come to Scotland
0:06:15 from San Francisco, New York, Miami, Los Angeles,
0:06:18 you really hope they have a good time.
0:06:21 And I’ve been thinking a lot about stress
0:06:22 and managing my anxiety.
0:06:26 And the reality is that I had too little anxiety
0:06:28 from kind of age to zero to 30.
0:06:30 I almost got kicked out of UCLA two or three times.
0:06:31 I wasn’t worried about it.
0:06:31 And you know what?
0:06:32 I should have been worried about it.
0:06:35 From 30 to 40, I think I had the right amount of anxiety.
0:06:37 Now, I have too much fucking anxiety.
0:06:40 My son is taking a course that may not
0:06:43 look good to potential admissions directors at universities.
0:06:45 So I’m up all fucking night worried about that.
0:06:48 I just– and then leading up to this thing,
0:06:50 just thinking about all these people
0:06:51 and really wanting it to be perfect,
0:06:53 and wanting the seating chart.
0:06:53 Will they get along?
0:06:55 Will this person find this person interesting?
0:06:57 I’m just worried about stupid shit
0:06:58 I used to never worry about.
0:07:00 Or maybe I’m just getting more thoughtful and considerate.
0:07:03 Anyways, absolutely beautiful.
0:07:05 The highlight was the activities on Saturday.
0:07:08 People did– we did ax throwing, shooting,
0:07:11 where we shot clay animals.
0:07:12 People went fishing.
0:07:13 That was a bit of a bust.
0:07:15 I guess the fish weren’t running.
0:07:18 Horseback riding tour Balmeral, where they had tea service.
0:07:21 And then, absolutely, the hit was putting everyone in a kilt.
0:07:24 When you put everyone in a kilt, things get crazy.
0:07:26 Things get crazy.
0:07:27 But that was a ton of fun.
0:07:32 And then I took a smaller set of my five oldest friends
0:07:33 with me to the south of France.
0:07:35 If I sound like I live a privileged life,
0:07:36 I do.
0:07:37 But that’s the bad news.
0:07:39 The good news is that I recognize it.
0:07:41 Anyways, here in the south of France,
0:07:43 let me give them my travel itinerary.
0:07:45 I head back to London, see the boys.
0:07:47 Then I go to Madrid for a speaking gig.
0:07:50 And then I go to Munich to speak at a friend’s conference.
0:07:52 Then I go back to London.
0:07:54 Then I go to LA to be in a writer’s room
0:07:57 for the new original scripted series
0:07:59 from Res Media and Scott Burns on Big Tech.
0:08:00 And I’m excited about that.
0:08:02 I’ve never been in a writer’s room before.
0:08:03 I don’t even know what to expect.
0:08:06 I just like using the term writer’s room.
0:08:07 So that’ll be interesting.
0:08:09 Anyways, enough about me.
0:08:10 What else is going on?
0:08:12 A lot in the world of social media.
0:08:16 TikTok had a date in court earlier this week.
0:08:18 Just a reminder here, it’s facing a potential ban
0:08:21 in the US as soon as January 19th.
0:08:23 TikTok is upset or claiming that the government is going
0:08:26 after its platform’s right to freedom of expression.
0:08:29 But all the US wants is for it to be released
0:08:30 from foreign ownership.
0:08:33 That is the Chinese Communist Party.
0:08:35 TikTok says they’ve spent $2 billion to protect US data,
0:08:37 but the US government isn’t so sure of the measures.
0:08:39 They’ve taken actually prevent the Chinese government
0:08:42 from taking a peak.
0:08:45 I think this is another example
0:08:47 of how the digitization of everything,
0:08:49 the combination of the adultery of innovators,
0:08:51 the amount of money these digital platforms create
0:08:54 has resulted in an entirely bifurcated world
0:08:57 with a certain set of standards for the analog world
0:08:59 and a certain set of standards for the digital world
0:09:02 and the individuals who operate
0:09:04 or the executives of those digital companies.
0:09:06 And the latest call sign or attempt
0:09:10 to create a culture of victimization and grievance
0:09:13 and they don’t get it, we get it,
0:09:17 is that anything that’s digital now is considered speech
0:09:18 and immediately everyone goes to free speech.
0:09:21 So, oh, you’re using a digital platform
0:09:22 to engage in child pornography?
0:09:24 Oh no, it’s speech.
0:09:26 It’s speech and a guy’s pulled off a plane
0:09:28 for not cooperating with authorities
0:09:30 trying to stop human trafficking
0:09:32 or funneling funds to terrorists.
0:09:35 Oh, okay, but because it was on a platform, it’s speech
0:09:39 and we can’t do anything about, crime is not speech.
0:09:43 If I had a hotel or I owned a hotel
0:09:46 and terrorists were meeting there
0:09:48 to get money from other people
0:09:50 and I was not cooperating with authorities
0:09:51 to break up this terrorist ring,
0:09:54 I would be in a, justifiably,
0:09:56 I would be in a shit ton of hurt
0:09:57 and in trouble as I should be.
0:09:59 But if I put it on a digital platform,
0:10:01 oh no, that’s innovation, it’s speech.
0:10:03 Fucking ridiculous.
0:10:04 And guess what?
0:10:06 Free speech has consistently,
0:10:10 early and often been trumped by defense threats.
0:10:13 If you’re working in the CIA or in our defense department
0:10:15 and you decide to start leaking secrets
0:10:20 about a planned invasion of whatever,
0:10:23 sorry, that’s not your free speech rights, girlfriend.
0:10:26 In defense threats, Trump trumped the First Amendment
0:10:28 and that’s exactly what should happen here.
0:10:31 If you wanna understand when any video
0:10:34 around a specific topic is getting much more oxygen
0:10:36 than it would organically or on other platforms,
0:10:37 it’s pretty simple.
0:10:39 Just say, what would the CCP want?
0:10:42 It is ridiculous that we would let
0:10:45 the equivalent of NBC, ABC and CBS
0:10:47 be controlled by the Kremlin in the ’60s.
0:10:51 That’s what this is and I believe that in fact,
0:10:54 in fact, the court will find on the side
0:10:57 of the DOJ or the White House.
0:10:58 What will happen?
0:11:00 Is TikTok gonna be banned?
0:11:02 No, on the eve of the banning,
0:11:03 they’re gonna come to some sort of accommodation.
0:11:04 Why?
0:11:06 If you ever wanna make predictions
0:11:09 that mostly turn out right, just follow the money.
0:11:12 If TikTok were to take its ball and go home,
0:11:14 you’re talking about a quarter of a trillion dollars
0:11:15 in lost shareholder value.
0:11:18 And they’re both American and Chinese investors.
0:11:20 And so there’s just too much money here
0:11:22 for them not to A, quite frankly,
0:11:25 spread it around to the whores in the United States Congress
0:11:27 who will put pressure on the White House
0:11:29 to come to some sort of accommodation.
0:11:32 And there’s too much money for China
0:11:34 and the Chinese government and Chinese business
0:11:36 to give that up, to just give it away.
0:11:40 And my pivot co-host, Kara Swisher, said there’s some
0:11:42 kind of national pride here where they don’t wanna be seen
0:11:44 as acquiescing to the US government.
0:11:47 I would sort of believe that two or three years ago,
0:11:50 but the Chinese economy is in real trouble.
0:11:54 And she who has dealt or acted with a real heavy hand
0:11:57 around corporations is seeing a government slowdown
0:11:59 that could potentially lead to a very,
0:12:02 or an economic slowdown that could lead to very bad things
0:12:04 for him and his colleagues.
0:12:07 The Chinese Communist Party still needs to bring tens,
0:12:10 if not hundreds of millions of people out of poverty.
0:12:14 And without an economic engine reigniting
0:12:16 from its sputtering over the last few years,
0:12:18 they’re not gonna be able to accomplish that.
0:12:22 So I think there’s gonna be a thaw in the heavy hand
0:12:25 they’ve been placing on corporations.
0:12:28 And I think if they start kneecapping their thoroughbreds,
0:12:30 but see above bite dance,
0:12:33 it’s not gonna play well domestically
0:12:36 and will send a very bad signal across global investors,
0:12:38 many of whom are describing Chinese companies
0:12:40 as uninvestable right now,
0:12:43 if they start getting kicked out of certain markets.
0:12:45 But I do think this is gonna be divested
0:12:47 or they’ll come to some sort of accommodation.
0:12:50 Moving on, moving on,
0:12:52 Instagram finally pulled its head out of its ass
0:12:55 and made some changes to the way teens interact with the app.
0:12:58 All teen operated accounts will slowly become private
0:12:59 and parents will have more insight
0:13:01 in how much their time their kid is spending on the app
0:13:03 and who they’ve been chatting with recently.
0:13:05 The company also intends to prompt time limits
0:13:07 and improve age verification methods,
0:13:11 such as asking for the government ID or a video selfie.
0:13:13 I think this is a fantastic move,
0:13:17 Instagram CEO Adam Macerries told The New York Times,
0:13:19 it’s definitely going to hurt teen growth and teen engagement
0:13:20 and there’s lots of risk,
0:13:22 but fundamentally I want us to be willing to take risks
0:13:24 and move forward to make progress.
0:13:25 So I hope Adam’s right
0:13:28 and I hope that he’s not sandburging all of us
0:13:29 and that is saying all the right things
0:13:32 and hopefully delaying and obfuscating the issue
0:13:35 as more and more teen girls begin cutting themselves.
0:13:37 We’re proud of our progress.
0:13:39 We need to do more.
0:13:40 Yeah, thanks for that.
0:13:42 So I hope he’s genuine, strikes me as genuine,
0:13:45 but I think we need laws and I think we need punishment.
0:13:47 I think I’m kind of sick of thinking,
0:13:50 no, it’ll be better ’cause Sam Altman, Sam Altman,
0:13:54 he speaks in hushed tones and he’s worried about AI.
0:13:57 Yeah, okay, why don’t we pass some laws
0:13:59 that says any algorithmically elevated content,
0:14:02 the results in defamation or trafficking,
0:14:04 that those people face the same consequences
0:14:07 as anybody else who spreads misinformation or slander,
0:14:09 disinformation or engages in crime
0:14:12 in a quote unquote old school media company.
0:14:13 It’s just so fucking ridiculous.
0:14:15 Any algorithmically elevated content
0:14:18 should lose 230 protection anyways.
0:14:21 And here’s the thing, we’re the idiots.
0:14:23 We keep saying at some point they’re gonna reduce
0:14:25 their bottom line to help the Commonwealth.
0:14:27 No, they’re not.
0:14:28 No, they’re not.
0:14:30 These guys would quite frankly sleep with their mothers
0:14:33 for an additional nickel as long as we let them.
0:14:34 We’re the ones at fault.
0:14:36 We need to pass laws that hold them
0:14:40 to the same accountability as the rest of the offline world.
0:14:43 Teens account for around 100 million Instagram accounts
0:14:45 globally as Jonathan Hyde said very eloquently,
0:14:47 we over protect our kids offline
0:14:49 and we under protect them online.
0:14:51 We need to begin holding these companies accountable.
0:14:53 Come on, come on, enough already.
0:14:55 40 congressional hearings on child safety
0:14:58 and social media, zero laws.
0:15:00 We’ll be right back for our conversation
0:15:03 with Dr. Ayanna Elizabeth Johnson.
0:15:07 Support for Prop G comes from The Washington Post.
0:15:09 By the way, I love The Washington Post.
0:15:13 Right now, you can go to WashingtonPost.com/PropG
0:15:14 to subscribe for just 50 cents per week
0:15:16 for your first year.
0:15:18 Now, you might already be familiar with the work
0:15:20 The Washington Post does on a variety of topics.
0:15:22 Of course, they cover key political news
0:15:23 to keep readers up to date,
0:15:25 but they also tackle other subjects,
0:15:27 including revealing the world tech giants
0:15:29 and regulators play in our lives,
0:15:30 the dangers and wonders of breakthrough
0:15:32 technological developments,
0:15:33 and the national conversation
0:15:35 around artificial intelligence.
0:15:38 The Post even offers a cool feature for audio lovers.
0:15:39 You can actually listen to articles
0:15:40 in addition to reading them
0:15:42 so you can tackle your to-do list
0:15:45 and catch up on the news at the same time.
0:15:46 I think The Washington Post plays
0:15:48 probably a bigger role in my life
0:15:49 over the last three or five years
0:15:51 than any other media company.
0:15:53 I think they do a fantastic job
0:15:55 with the election rapidly approaching.
0:15:57 Now might be a great time to sign up for The Washington Post.
0:15:59 Go to WashingtonPost.com/PropG
0:16:02 to subscribe for just 50 cents per week
0:16:03 for your first year.
0:16:05 That’s 80% off their typical offer.
0:16:09 Once again, that’s WashingtonPost.com/PropG
0:16:11 to subscribe for just 50 cents per week
0:16:13 for your first year.
0:16:18 Support for PropG comes from Nerd Wallet.
0:16:20 If you’re a listener of the show, you know business,
0:16:21 and if you’re looking for a resource
0:16:22 to find financial products
0:16:25 that can help you make smart financial decisions,
0:16:26 turn to the nerds at Nerd Wallet.
0:16:30 Not only have they spent thousands of hours researching
0:16:32 and reviewing over 1300 financial products,
0:16:33 but they have the tools you need
0:16:35 to make smarter decisions.
0:16:36 Looking for a credit card?
0:16:38 At Nerd Wallet, you can go beyond the basic comparisons,
0:16:40 filter for the features that matter to you,
0:16:42 and read in-depth reviews.
0:16:44 Ready to choose a high-yield savings account?
0:16:46 Get access to exclusive deals
0:16:47 and compare rates, bonuses, and more.
0:16:48 House hunting?
0:16:51 View today’s top mortgage rates for your home sweet home.
0:16:54 Make the Nerds your go-to resource
0:16:55 for smart financial decisions.
0:16:58 Head to nerdwallet.com/learnmore.
0:17:00 Nerd Wallet, finance smarter.
0:17:02 Nerd Wallet Compare, Incorporated,
0:17:06 NMLS-161-7539.
0:17:13 (upbeat music)
0:17:20 – Welcome back.
0:17:22 Here’s our conversation with Dr. Ianna Elizabeth Johnson,
0:17:24 a marine biologist, policy expert,
0:17:26 and author of What If We Get It Right?
0:17:28 Visions of Climate Futures.
0:17:31 Dr. Johnson, where does this podcast find you?
0:17:34 – I am in Brooklyn, New York, in a hotel room.
0:17:38 It’s the first thing I’m doing on publication day of,
0:17:40 yeah, What If We Get It Right?
0:17:42 – Nice, so let’s bust right into it.
0:17:46 In your new book, What If We Get It Right?
0:17:48 Visions of Climate Futures,
0:17:50 you provide a curated collection of in-depth interviews
0:17:53 with experts in earth science, technology, AI design,
0:17:56 and agriculture, as well as activists and journalists
0:17:58 to showcase a variety of climate solutions
0:18:01 and to help people envision a more hopeful future.
0:18:03 So how would you describe,
0:18:06 let’s go right to the title of your book,
0:18:07 how would you describe getting it right?
0:18:10 What does right look like to you?
0:18:14 – Right looks like actually quickly deploying
0:18:16 all the climate solutions we already have.
0:18:20 So we already know how to transition to renewable energy.
0:18:23 We already know how to do better public transit
0:18:26 and green buildings and energy efficiency
0:18:30 and better farming and protecting and restoring ecosystems.
0:18:33 Like there’s not a big mystery
0:18:34 to how to address the climate crisis.
0:18:37 There’s not a thing where we need to wait
0:18:40 for some magical technology to come along.
0:18:44 I think that’s the blessing of this moment
0:18:46 is that we basically have the solutions we need.
0:18:48 It’s just a matter of how quickly
0:18:51 and how justly we can implement them.
0:18:55 – So obviously we have an arsenal of weapons at our disposal
0:18:57 to try and address this,
0:18:59 but if you were to stack rank them and say right,
0:19:01 these are the most obvious things
0:19:03 that would have the greatest ROI so to speak.
0:19:06 What would those two or three things be?
0:19:09 – I think it depends on what level
0:19:11 you’re asking that question, right?
0:19:14 Because if you’re asking this for the listener
0:19:16 who wants to do something today,
0:19:19 that’s very different from the broader sort of social
0:19:21 and cultural shifts that need to happen,
0:19:22 apart from democracy, right?
0:19:24 We have a huge challenge
0:19:26 with the culture of consumerism in this country,
0:19:29 which is holding us back in a lot of different ways.
0:19:31 Also, not a quick fix,
0:19:33 but something we each have a lot more control over.
0:19:36 But one thing that people don’t really know
0:19:39 is how powerful their money is,
0:19:42 not only in the sense of the importance of voting
0:19:45 with your dollars every day and every purchase,
0:19:48 but thinking about where your savings are,
0:19:51 where your retirement investments are,
0:19:53 because there was a study a few years ago
0:19:56 that came out by Bank Forward and some other organizations
0:20:01 saying that if you have, say, $125,000 saved for your retirement,
0:20:07 that money, if it’s not invested in a fossil fuel-free fund,
0:20:09 could be doing more harm
0:20:11 in terms of contributing to carbon emissions
0:20:14 through the expansion of oil and gas infrastructure
0:20:16 than all the good you could possibly do,
0:20:18 just like walking and biking everywhere,
0:20:21 eating only plants, et cetera.
0:20:24 And that was very shocking for me to learn
0:20:26 that it really, really matters to find
0:20:29 a climate-friendly place to keep our money,
0:20:33 because we have in the U.S. the four biggest banks,
0:20:38 Citibank, JPMorgan, Wells Fargo and Bank of America,
0:20:41 that have collectively funded trillions of dollars
0:20:43 towards the fossil fuel industry
0:20:45 since the U.S. signed the Paris Agreement
0:20:48 saying we were committing to wind down.
0:20:50 And so those industries in the U.S. are growing
0:20:53 when we actually need to be making this transition.
0:20:56 So that personal shift is actually the easiest,
0:20:59 sort of like, in one day what one person
0:21:03 with money in the bank can do, the biggest difference.
0:21:06 – So let me just start off with the common ground.
0:21:08 I believe the climate change is the next central crisis.
0:21:10 I’m worried about it.
0:21:11 I think every parent that has kids
0:21:14 are concerned for the future.
0:21:16 You know, this is a four or five car alarm,
0:21:18 whatever the term is, we need to get on this.
0:21:22 Where I would push back is, so consumerism,
0:21:25 out-of-control consumerism, and the basic notion
0:21:26 that we just need to be more thoughtful
0:21:28 about how much we consume.
0:21:32 I think that’s a really solid argument.
0:21:33 I see no evidence that’s going to happen,
0:21:36 has happened or will happen.
0:21:39 Every generation, we assume that they’re more noble than us,
0:21:40 more concerned about the earth,
0:21:43 and there’s some sign they’re more socially aware,
0:21:45 but generally speaking, as the economy becomes
0:21:48 more productive, people take advantage of it
0:21:49 and want to consume more for less.
0:21:52 And I don’t see evidence of that,
0:21:54 and I feel like it’s pushing a rock up a hill.
0:21:58 I would also argue that asking consumers
0:22:02 to invest in something that, when you limit the universe
0:22:04 of your potential investment options,
0:22:08 you just naturally, as a function of math, reduce the ROI.
0:22:12 And it feels like there’s such politicized pushback
0:22:16 on these efforts that I worry that these two things
0:22:18 aren’t going to be effective,
0:22:22 that they actually aren’t realistic in terms of asking people
0:22:24 to lower the ROI on their investments
0:22:27 or reduce their consumerism, your thoughts.
0:22:29 – So I think there’s a very, very long list
0:22:32 of things individuals, corporations, governments,
0:22:34 et cetera, can do.
0:22:38 I guess my question to you is if we’re not willing
0:22:42 to change anything about our behavior that’s significant,
0:22:46 why would we expect the five alarm fire to go out?
0:22:47 – That’s a fair point.
0:22:48 Well, I’ll give an opinion.
0:22:51 I think we need to appeal to people’s great glance
0:22:55 that there’s huge opportunity here for new technologies.
0:22:58 There’s huge opportunity to invest in renewables
0:23:02 that nuclear is a fantastic, in my view,
0:23:03 I don’t know how you feel about it.
0:23:06 I’ll use this as a question,
0:23:09 but nuclear energy presents an enormous opportunity
0:23:11 for both not only climate change,
0:23:14 but just a more efficient way of producing power.
0:23:16 I’m just so disappointed that this whole conversation
0:23:20 has been politicized and I’m trying to figure out a way
0:23:22 to make arguments that appeal to both sides of the aisle
0:23:26 such that we have an easier time getting stuff done.
0:23:27 But I don’t–
0:23:29 – Well, I think the thing with nuclear is
0:23:31 that’s also not a quick fix, right?
0:23:35 It takes a decade at least to develop a nuclear plant
0:23:37 to get it permitted and built, right?
0:23:39 So we’re talking about a scenario
0:23:44 where we need to get our emissions cut by half this decade.
0:23:49 So nuclear is already part of our energy mix,
0:23:52 may continue to be part of our energy mix,
0:23:54 but that alone is not enough to get us there, right?
0:23:56 We don’t have fusion yet.
0:23:59 And so I think one of the things
0:24:02 that I found really exciting is that we have now,
0:24:05 because Congress passed the Inflation Reduction Act,
0:24:09 the Infrastructure and Jobs Act,
0:24:14 all this funding going to changing the way we build
0:24:15 and do things in the US.
0:24:17 We have all these, for example,
0:24:20 battery manufacturing plants going up primarily
0:24:24 in red states with great green jobs.
0:24:27 We have Iowa and Texas as the largest producers
0:24:29 of wind energy in the United States.
0:24:31 That’s not because they’re hippies, right?
0:24:34 And I think modernizing the grid is very important.
0:24:37 We can’t even bring all of this renewable energy
0:24:39 into the mix in some places, right?
0:24:41 Because our grid is so antiquated.
0:24:45 And so I mean, if that’s political,
0:24:46 then I guess that’s political,
0:24:50 but we’re gonna have to make some significant changes
0:24:54 to the way we use energy, the way we go food,
0:24:58 the way we get around in order to have these reductions
0:25:00 and carbon pollution that we need to see.
0:25:02 And of course, there’s an economic argument
0:25:03 we made for this.
0:25:05 I mean, people are making a lot of money
0:25:07 off of this transition.
0:25:09 And last year marked the first year
0:25:11 that the major banks actually invested more in renewables
0:25:14 than fossil fuels was still in the US
0:25:16 over a trillion dollars on each.
0:25:20 So not as big a difference as we’d like to see.
0:25:21 But when you’re talking about sort of like
0:25:23 what individuals can do,
0:25:27 it’s certainly not build a nuclear plant in their backyard,
0:25:27 right?
0:25:30 And so I think to answer your question of what we can do,
0:25:32 like it really matters the scale, right?
0:25:34 There’s political change that needs to happen
0:25:37 because corporations aren’t all volunteering
0:25:38 to do the right thing.
0:25:41 There needs to be some bar set.
0:25:43 – Or just laws, right?
0:25:45 – They’re not good enough, right?
0:25:47 And they’re not enforced often.
0:25:49 We had under the Trump administration
0:25:53 the rollback of over a hundred environmental regulations
0:25:55 for clean air and clean water, et cetera.
0:25:59 So setting a minimum standard of environmental quality
0:26:01 is something that’s, you know,
0:26:04 the Clean Water Act, the Clean Air Act,
0:26:06 and the Adored Species Act,
0:26:09 they were all signed under Reagan in the ’70s
0:26:10 with bipartisan support.
0:26:14 So the politicization of environmental conservation
0:26:18 and climate in particular is actually quite new
0:26:19 in US history.
0:26:23 And I would like a short-term time machine
0:26:26 to just go back not even that far.
0:26:29 I mean, I think a lot of people who are close to nature,
0:26:34 whether they’re farmers or hunters or hikers,
0:26:37 know that things are changing in the wrong direction
0:26:39 and want to be a part of fixing that,
0:26:41 like ducks unlimited, trout unlimited,
0:26:44 like these folks are active conservationists, right?
0:26:47 Because they know that their hobbies,
0:26:49 their passions require healthy ecosystems.
0:26:54 So I personally don’t think any of this has to be political.
0:26:59 Like we all actually want a good future for our children
0:27:03 and there’s polling that shows that the biggest motivator
0:27:07 for people to act on climate is love for future generations.
0:27:11 It’s actually not profit, which I found to be surprising.
0:27:13 It’s not any number of other things.
0:27:15 It really is like, I want to leave a better world
0:27:16 for my children.
0:27:20 And the biggest thing they could convince conservative men
0:27:24 to care more about climate change is their daughters.
0:27:27 Saying, you’re setting our future on fire and I’m scared.
0:27:30 And that sort of instinct to protect our daughters,
0:27:33 our children kicks in in this way
0:27:35 that’s actually beneficial for the planet.
0:27:39 So there’s a lot of certainly like psychology and economics
0:27:42 and politics and policy, et cetera,
0:27:44 and culture all at play here.
0:27:46 – What if we said, okay,
0:27:48 we’re going to stop subsidizing the beef industry
0:27:50 and we’re going to do what a lot of Western nations
0:27:54 done recognizing that fossil fuels are bad for us
0:27:54 over the long term.
0:27:56 There’s been an incredible economic arbitrage,
0:27:58 but there’s real externalities here.
0:28:02 And we put a $5 a gallon tax on gasoline in the US
0:28:06 and we stopped subsidizing all the water
0:28:10 and things that create beef unnaturally inexpensive.
0:28:14 What about just straight economic pricing
0:28:17 to address or to foot to the externalities?
0:28:18 – That would absolutely help.
0:28:22 I mean, getting just eliminating the subsidies
0:28:23 would be a great start.
0:28:27 The US still subsidize its fossil fuel corporations
0:28:30 to the tune of millions of dollars a day.
0:28:34 I could think of better things to spend that money on, right?
0:28:37 It has never been a level playing field
0:28:40 for clean energy in this country.
0:28:43 And so the fact that clean energy is growing as fast
0:28:46 as it is is sort of a miracle and proof
0:28:48 that just catching photons from the sky
0:28:51 is much more efficient (laughs)
0:28:54 with a piece of glass pointed at the sun
0:28:57 than drilling and fracking and all this other stuff.
0:29:01 And so I think this is this energy transition
0:29:03 is going to happen regardless.
0:29:04 It is much more efficient.
0:29:06 It is more profitable.
0:29:10 It’s just a matter of how fast, how long that takes.
0:29:14 And this really is a race against the clock.
0:29:15 – What do you think of the idea
0:29:17 of trying to wealth your nations,
0:29:19 trying to bind together and figuring out a way
0:29:22 to either subsidize or encourage developing nations
0:29:24 who look at us and say, okay,
0:29:27 you’ve enjoyed this great fossil fuel arbitrage.
0:29:28 As people become wealthier,
0:29:30 as nations become wealthier,
0:29:32 they kind of engage in things that quite frankly
0:29:34 just create a lot of emissions.
0:29:38 And when we say, don’t make the same mistake we did,
0:29:41 they say, well, okay, easy for you to say, you’re already wealthy.
0:29:44 What role do we have, or is there a role,
0:29:47 or do you think it’s feasible for us to bind together
0:29:49 with wealthy nations and try and figure out,
0:29:51 well, I don’t know if it’s direct economic subsidies
0:29:55 to say, all right, please don’t go down the route of coal.
0:29:57 Please don’t go down the route of beef.
0:30:00 What role do we have and does this exist?
0:30:03 – Well, this exists through the United Nations
0:30:05 intergovernmental panel on climate change
0:30:08 at the last conference of the parties,
0:30:10 annual climate conference.
0:30:12 Countries agreed to establish
0:30:15 what they called a loss and damage fund
0:30:18 to help countries deal with the impacts of climate change.
0:30:22 You’re talking more about the reducing emissions side,
0:30:24 but there’s also the like, ooh,
0:30:26 like these rich countries caused this problem
0:30:29 and it’s largely these less wealthy,
0:30:32 less developed countries that are bearing the brunt of it
0:30:34 because it’s hitting so hard in the tropics, right?
0:30:39 With hurricanes and floods and droughts
0:30:41 and like insane heatwaves,
0:30:44 temperatures like 130 plus degrees
0:30:48 that is just humans are not built to withstand.
0:30:49 And so that fund has been set up,
0:30:51 but wealthy countries just are not making
0:30:56 the contributions that they promised,
0:30:57 that people expected.
0:30:58 And there’s a question, of course,
0:30:59 of how to best distribute that
0:31:01 because there will never be enough funds
0:31:05 for all the need that there is.
0:31:06 But what you’re talking about,
0:31:11 sort of jumping away from coal to renewables,
0:31:17 there’s this question mark of what’s called leapfrogging.
0:31:20 So I interview in my book,
0:31:22 Professor Kelly Sims Gallagher
0:31:23 who runs the Public Policy School,
0:31:26 Fletcher School at Tufts University
0:31:30 and worked in the White House under President Obama,
0:31:33 brokering the first deal between the US and China
0:31:35 on climate change that set the ball rolling
0:31:37 to get this global agreement.
0:31:40 And basically the only way we were able to get that agreement
0:31:43 was because China was seeing how polluted it was,
0:31:44 how dirty the sky was.
0:31:48 It was really at risk to public health, it still is, right?
0:31:52 And their citizens were like, we’ve got to clean this up.
0:31:55 And so there was that internal political will built
0:31:58 from the public health and citizen pressure.
0:32:01 And the only way they could get the agreement though
0:32:04 was that it was each country just committed to whatever
0:32:07 they felt like they could commit to.
0:32:09 So we have this current framework
0:32:12 of what’s called nationally determined contributions
0:32:14 or every country in the world that’s a signatory
0:32:18 to the Paris Agreement gets to make up their own commitment.
0:32:20 And every five years,
0:32:22 there’s a conference where you can ratchet that up,
0:32:23 where you can commit to more,
0:32:26 where there’s an evaluation of how are we doing?
0:32:29 What else can we get together and do?
0:32:32 So we actually have a really good framework in place
0:32:34 through the United Nations to do this,
0:32:38 but it really depends on who’s in office in these countries
0:32:40 who’s present, who’s prime minister,
0:32:42 is Congress actually appropriating the funds
0:32:44 to put into this loss and damage fund, right?
0:32:46 ‘Cause the president can’t do that.
0:32:50 Unfortunately, a lot of this does come back to politics
0:32:52 because you need the leaders of nations to agree
0:32:54 to do something.
0:32:56 You and I could be the best environmentalists
0:33:00 with the lowest individual carbon footprints in the world,
0:33:03 but we still live in these systems
0:33:05 where for most people you turn on the lights
0:33:08 and you don’t get to choose where electricity comes from.
0:33:10 Most people don’t own their homes
0:33:13 or have the chance to afford the transition
0:33:15 to renewables as individuals.
0:33:18 So this has to be part of a bigger shift,
0:33:20 but I think we should also be framing this
0:33:23 as a straight up upgrade.
0:33:26 Like the air quality benefits alone,
0:33:29 I mean, we’re talking about nine million people
0:33:32 dying a year because of air pollution,
0:33:35 because of fossil fuel burning, right?
0:33:37 Like even if there’s no other benefit
0:33:41 than having cleaner air that doesn’t kill us, I’ll take it.
0:33:43 – I don’t know if you’ve ever listened to any of our work,
0:33:45 but I’m a glass half empty kind of guy.
0:33:47 I just naturally come at all this shit as a pessimist,
0:33:49 which is one of my many flaws.
0:33:52 And one of the things I find really discouraging
0:33:56 is that the level of excitement around cryptocurrency,
0:34:00 specifically Bitcoin and around AI
0:34:03 just overwhelms the inconvenient truth
0:34:06 that the incremental energy production
0:34:08 because of Bitcoin is basically
0:34:11 the electricity consumption of Argentina.
0:34:14 We’ve added Argentina such that we could figure out
0:34:17 a new store of value and a new form of money,
0:34:20 which to me just seemed entirely unnecessary.
0:34:22 And then on the AI side,
0:34:25 AI queries are 13 to 17 times
0:34:27 the energy consumption of a Google query.
0:34:29 And yet there’s no slowing AI down.
0:34:31 There’s not even really a discussion around,
0:34:35 in my view, around attacks to foot again.
0:34:36 It feels like in many instances
0:34:38 we’re actually headed the wrong way
0:34:40 with some of the most popular technologies.
0:34:42 – I agree with you, and I’m actually not an optimist.
0:34:43 People read the title of my book,
0:34:44 “What If We Get It Right?”
0:34:46 and assume that I think we will get it right,
0:34:47 which is just not true, right?
0:34:49 There’s a question mark at the end of that.
0:34:52 Like, I don’t know if we’re gonna get it together.
0:34:55 I know that we could make a much better future
0:34:57 than we have, than we’re on track for right now.
0:34:59 Like, I’m a scientist, I’m a realist.
0:35:00 I see the projections.
0:35:05 I know that we are on track for several more degrees
0:35:07 of warning, which means much more ice melting,
0:35:08 which means much more sea level rise,
0:35:09 which means much more heat waves,
0:35:12 and more droughts and floods and wildfires.
0:35:13 All of that is on the horizon.
0:35:15 I don’t want to sugarcoat any of that.
0:35:17 The stakes are incredibly high,
0:35:20 and we are already, of course, experiencing these impacts,
0:35:25 and there’s more to come, even if we cap it all right now.
0:35:26 And you’re right.
0:35:28 I mean, the development of AI in particular,
0:35:32 there’s an interview in this book with Mustafa Suleyman,
0:35:36 who is now the head of AI at Microsoft,
0:35:37 and talking to him about it.
0:35:40 I mean, I personally am not a fan of AI,
0:35:42 but like, we can’t put the cap back in the bag.
0:35:43 So it’s a question of like,
0:35:48 how do we best manage that industry
0:35:51 and leverage it for good?
0:35:53 But one of the statistics I learned
0:35:54 while researching this book,
0:35:57 and of course, these are moving targets
0:35:58 as new data comes out,
0:36:02 but the latest was that data centers in the U.S.
0:36:07 already consume about 2.5% of the U.S.’s total energy demand.
0:36:10 That was as of 2022,
0:36:15 and that’s expected to triple to 7.5% by 2030, right?
0:36:18 We’re talking about being on track for 10%
0:36:22 of our energy being used by data centers.
0:36:23 – On the Ezra Klein show,
0:36:25 you discussed how the climate crisis is an ocean–
0:36:27 – Oh, that’s like 10 years ago.
0:36:28 – We do our homework together.
0:36:30 – What did I say?
0:36:32 – You actually said something really interesting.
0:36:34 You said that you thought that the climate crisis
0:36:36 is an oceans crisis.
0:36:37 What did you mean by that?
0:36:40 – So yes, I’m a marine biologist by training.
0:36:43 I always think about how the ocean gets neglected
0:36:45 in all of this.
0:36:48 We know that the ocean has absorbed about a third
0:36:51 of the carbon dioxide that’s been emitted
0:36:53 by burning fossil fuels,
0:36:54 and that’s made the ocean more acidic.
0:36:55 – Can you explain how that happens?
0:36:56 Like, what is it in the ocean?
0:37:00 – It’s just this chemical reaction on the surface.
0:37:03 – I thought it was the krill or whale poop or something.
0:37:04 Did there, no?
0:37:05 – Oh, that’s the,
0:37:07 there’s a broader carbon cycle in the ocean.
0:37:10 There’s like half of the, you know,
0:37:13 some estimates are that about half of the oxygen we breathe
0:37:15 comes from the ocean because of photosynthesis
0:37:18 of phytoplankton in the ocean.
0:37:22 Whale poop is a big part or was, when there were more whales,
0:37:24 a big part of the carbon cycle,
0:37:27 ’cause their poop sinks to the bottom of the ocean.
0:37:29 All this sort of marine snow it’s called,
0:37:32 just like a bunch of animal poop in the ocean
0:37:33 is heavy enough to sink,
0:37:38 and that ends up sequestering a significant amount of carbon
0:37:39 through these natural cycles.
0:37:42 But as we overfish the ocean,
0:37:44 of course, we’re disrupting all of that,
0:37:47 which is also a risk for deep sea mining,
0:37:49 disturbing all that carbon
0:37:51 that has been sequestered down there potentially
0:37:55 in the quest for the metals for making batteries.
0:37:58 So all these things are complicated
0:38:01 and have trade-offs that we need to consider.
0:38:05 But on the ocean climate side,
0:38:06 I think there’s two sides, right?
0:38:08 There’s the ocean as bearing a lot of the brunt of this.
0:38:12 So the ocean has become about 30% more acidic
0:38:15 because it has absorbed so much carbon dioxide.
0:38:18 So the pH of the entire ocean has shifted,
0:38:19 which of course makes it harder
0:38:23 for things with shells and skeletons, corals to grow,
0:38:27 and shifts the way that animals navigate by smell
0:38:29 and the seawaters changing, right?
0:38:31 Because the chemistry of it has shifted.
0:38:33 And then you have the fact that the ocean
0:38:35 has warmed about a degree Celsius
0:38:39 because it’s absorbed about 90% of the heat
0:38:41 that we’ve trapped with all these greenhouse gases
0:38:44 emitted by burning fossil fuels.
0:38:46 And so without the ocean absorbing all that heat,
0:38:49 the planet would be about 97 degrees Fahrenheit hotter,
0:38:51 obviously unlivable.
0:38:54 So we owe a big debt of gratitude to the ocean.
0:38:57 But it’s also estimated that on the solution side,
0:39:00 the ocean could be about 40% of our climate solution.
0:39:03 When we think about offshore renewable energies,
0:39:05 currently that’s mostly wind power,
0:39:07 but looking at wave and tidal
0:39:09 and other sorts of energy in the future,
0:39:11 as that technology develops,
0:39:13 thinking about how to decarbonize shipping,
0:39:15 which is still a huge…
0:39:17 – Yeah, people don’t talk about shipping.
0:39:21 Isn’t it like an eight or 12% of total carbon emissions?
0:39:22 – Something very large,
0:39:24 but there’s a tricky thing with shipping
0:39:27 where it also emits all of this soot
0:39:31 because they have tended to use really dirty crude oil,
0:39:35 which actually helps to create shade and soot,
0:39:38 which may have decreased warming.
0:39:40 And so by cleaning up shipping,
0:39:42 you’re actually maybe making things hotter,
0:39:45 which is like this counterintuitive,
0:39:49 which is all to say, you pull on one thread
0:39:52 and you see that it’s connected to everything.
0:39:55 But ocean ecosystems, for example,
0:39:59 can absorb three, five times more carbon per acre
0:40:01 than a rainforest.
0:40:04 And so we think so much of only forests.
0:40:05 – Whenever I do carbon credits,
0:40:06 they show a picture of a tree.
0:40:08 They should be showing a picture of a reef or something.
0:40:11 – Mangroves, seagrasses, wetlands.
0:40:14 I mean, I think they’re just as sexy,
0:40:17 but maybe other people make it just a bunch of mud.
0:40:22 – Given you’re a scientist and you study this,
0:40:25 is there any one technology that you think is underrated
0:40:27 in terms of the impact it can have or innovation
0:40:29 that you think it holds more promise
0:40:30 than it’s getting press on?
0:40:33 – Does composting count as technology?
0:40:35 – Sure, it’s a process, right?
0:40:37 – Food waste emits a huge amount of methane,
0:40:40 which is a greenhouse gas something like,
0:40:42 depending on what time scale you look at it,
0:40:45 30, 80% more potent than carbon dioxide.
0:40:47 So anytime you throw food in the trash
0:40:49 and it ends up in a landfill and it’s emitting methane,
0:40:50 that is very bad.
0:40:54 So composting food waste, that technology of nature,
0:40:56 breaking things down.
0:40:58 And then we have all this soil to grow new food
0:41:00 and flowers and all that stuff.
0:41:03 I think on the energy side,
0:41:06 I actually don’t want to pick a winner in technology
0:41:09 because as Jigar Shah says in this interview
0:41:11 with him in the book,
0:41:13 he’s the head of the loan program office
0:41:14 at the Department of Energy,
0:41:17 which has something like $400 billion in loans
0:41:19 that they can put out to energy companies
0:41:23 to help support the innovation of new technologies.
0:41:26 His perspective, which I share is like,
0:41:28 we’re always gonna need a mix.
0:41:31 We wouldn’t want to rely on all nuclear.
0:41:34 We wouldn’t want to rely on all solar or all wind, right?
0:41:38 It is that diversity that makes the system more resilient.
0:41:40 And so I personally like, great,
0:41:43 I think renewables are exciting.
0:41:45 I think we should have that mix.
0:41:47 One technology I would really like to see,
0:41:51 especially in America, is high-speed trains.
0:41:55 Like why are we so behind on this, right?
0:41:59 We’re all flying short distances.
0:42:02 It’s like, if we could have trains from city center
0:42:03 to city center that were actually fast,
0:42:05 that would be faster than flying,
0:42:08 going through security, getting there early, whatever.
0:42:09 It would save us time
0:42:12 and be such a more luxurious way to travel.
0:42:15 I mean, that’s not maybe the high technology
0:42:16 you were thinking of,
0:42:18 but I think that would be transformative
0:42:19 in significant ways,
0:42:22 especially for a country as large as ours.
0:42:24 – Do you say the political environment?
0:42:28 – My sense is, unfortunately or discouragingly,
0:42:31 I feel as if the last one or two years,
0:42:35 we’ve actually regressed as opposed to making progress.
0:42:38 What are your thoughts about the current political environment
0:42:40 and the support we need
0:42:43 to try and address these issues recently?
0:42:45 – Yeah, I mean,
0:42:47 Trump is a candidate who periodically says
0:42:49 climate change is a hoax, right?
0:42:53 Like that’s a pretty hard scenario to be in
0:42:55 when you’re trying to advance solutions.
0:42:59 And I think it’s important to remember that,
0:43:02 we had Newt Gingrich and Nancy Pelosi agreeing
0:43:05 that we needed climate policy, right?
0:43:09 Not that long ago and like making a TV ad about it together.
0:43:13 But I’ll also say on this political polarization piece
0:43:16 that I don’t debate climate science deniers.
0:43:21 I just, I’m not the right messenger for that, right?
0:43:24 Like I’m not gonna change anyone’s mind on the internet
0:43:25 by telling them science facts,
0:43:28 like that’s not how this is gonna get fixed.
0:43:30 And so I think there’s a big part of this,
0:43:33 we can actually skip talking about the problem, right?
0:43:35 Like let’s go back to that example
0:43:40 of wind energy booming in Ohio and Texas.
0:43:43 It’s not because there was some big debate statewide
0:43:46 and they were like, okay, climate change is a problem,
0:43:47 we should develop this industry.
0:43:50 It’s just ’cause it makes sense and they’re good jobs
0:43:53 and it’s profitable and we don’t even have to talk about
0:43:56 the why and the details, right?
0:44:00 And I think we can kind of gloss over a lot of the problem
0:44:03 and just agree on the solutions.
0:44:06 – We’ll be right back.
0:44:11 Support for Prop G comes from Thorn.
0:44:13 Having control of your health means being mindful
0:44:15 of what you put in your body every day.
0:44:17 So if you wanna maintain a healthy lifestyle
0:44:18 and give yourself the energy you need,
0:44:21 then you might wanna check out Thorn.
0:44:22 Thorn takes a personalized, innovative
0:44:25 and scientific approach to health and wellness
0:44:26 with their supplements.
0:44:27 They’re manufactured in the U.S.
0:44:29 using top-notch ingredients sourced globally.
0:44:32 Plus, they team up with leading medical professionals
0:44:34 to bring you highly effective nutritional supplements.
0:44:36 And according to Thorn,
0:44:38 they’re trusted by over five million customers,
0:44:40 47,000 healthcare professionals,
0:44:43 plenty of pro athletes, over 100 pro sports teams
0:44:45 and multiple U.S. national teams.
0:44:47 They sent me some supplements to try
0:44:50 and I am now using, on a fairly regular basis,
0:44:52 our creatine supplement.
0:44:54 It helps my workouts and generally I feel pretty good on it.
0:44:56 Give your body what it really needs with Thorn.
0:45:00 Go to thorn.fit/provg and use code PROVG
0:45:02 for 10% off your first order.
0:45:07 That’s T-H-O-R-N-E dot F-I-T slash PROVG code PROVG
0:45:10 for 10% off your first order.
0:45:14 Thorn.fit slash PROVG code PROVG.
0:45:15 These statements have not been evaluated
0:45:17 by the Food and Drug Administration.
0:45:19 This product is not intended to diagnose,
0:45:21 treat, cure or prevent any disease.
0:45:25 Support for the show comes from LinkedIn.
0:45:27 When you’re hiring for your small business,
0:45:28 you not only want to find quality professionals,
0:45:29 you want to find people that are right
0:45:31 for your specific role.
0:45:33 That’s why you have to check out LinkedIn Jobs.
0:45:35 LinkedIn Jobs has the tools to help find the right
0:45:38 professionals for your team faster and for free.
0:45:40 LinkedIn isn’t just a job board.
0:45:41 They can help you hire professionals
0:45:43 you can’t find anywhere else,
0:45:45 even those who aren’t actively searching for a new job
0:45:47 that might be open to the perfect position.
0:45:49 And according to LinkedIn,
0:45:51 over 70% of LinkedIn users don’t visit
0:45:54 other leading job sites in a given month.
0:45:55 So to put it quite simply,
0:45:57 if you’re not looking on LinkedIn,
0:45:59 you’re looking in the wrong place.
0:46:01 And for all you small business owners out there,
0:46:03 LinkedIn knows that there’s a lot of pressure
0:46:05 on the day to day and that you’re wearing so many hats
0:46:08 you might not have the time or resources to hire.
0:46:10 But it’s time to hire professionals
0:46:13 like a professional on LinkedIn.
0:46:16 Post your job for free at linkedin.com/prof.
0:46:20 That’s linkedin.com/prof to post your job for free
0:46:21 terms and conditions apply.
0:46:28 – Dr. Johnson, you have a lot of influence
0:46:30 at a very young age.
0:46:31 You’ve got a big following.
0:46:32 – I mean, I’m 44.
0:46:33 I’m not that young.
0:46:35 – Well, okay, it’s all relative.
0:46:39 I just celebrated a birthday, so 44 feels young.
0:46:41 But I’m just curious,
0:46:43 what, and it seems like again,
0:46:45 from an outsider’s perspective, everything looks great,
0:46:49 but it strikes me you have just the coolest job
0:46:53 and you’re doing something that you appear to really enjoy.
0:46:56 We have a lot of young people listening to podcasts.
0:46:58 What were some seminal moments for you
0:47:01 in terms of figuring out you wanted to do this
0:47:04 and sort of key break or key kind of turning points
0:47:07 or your kind of break?
0:47:09 And that sort of leads into what we typically offer
0:47:10 is the last question here.
0:47:13 What advice would you have to your younger self?
0:47:17 – I mean, many, many inflection points, of course.
0:47:20 I think the thing that I keep going back to
0:47:25 is falling in love with nature.
0:47:27 And when I was five, we went to Key West, Florida,
0:47:29 and I learned to swim and snorkel
0:47:31 and I saw a coral reef for the first time
0:47:34 and I was just like gobsmacked
0:47:39 that there was this super colorful dynamic underwater world.
0:47:41 And I was like, how come no one told me about this?
0:47:45 Can this be my job to just hang out with these weird fish?
0:47:48 And that sort of started me off on that path,
0:47:52 but I had many, I mean, marine biologists
0:47:55 is a pretty common dream job for a five-year-old.
0:47:57 – Yeah, it’s literally something my son has said
0:47:59 that he’d like to be a marine biologist.
0:48:00 I’m like, what is that? – It’s an actual job.
0:48:02 We could use the help.
0:48:08 And I think though that like my dreams professionally
0:48:11 evolved a lot, right?
0:48:14 Like a lot, when I was 10, I wanted to be,
0:48:16 I was learning about the civil rights movement.
0:48:17 I wanted to be the lawyer
0:48:19 that got the next Martin Luther King out of jail.
0:48:21 I was like, let me,
0:48:24 I wanna support people who are fighting for justice.
0:48:28 And then I thought, I started camping and backpacking
0:48:30 and I was like, I could be a park ranger.
0:48:33 Like I could get paid to just hang out in the forest.
0:48:35 Like clearly that’s the best job.
0:48:38 And then I started to get a little more savvy
0:48:40 about the policy and politics of it all.
0:48:43 I was like, oh, maybe environmental lawyer is a good thing.
0:48:45 And then when I was ready to go to grad school,
0:48:49 I thought, you know, there’s a lot of lawyers in the world.
0:48:54 Maybe I could approach this question from the science side
0:48:57 and like meet the lawyers and policy folks in the middle.
0:49:00 And so that’s what I decided to do.
0:49:03 But always it was this interdisciplinary approach
0:49:07 of science and policy and politics and economics and culture
0:49:11 because it’s that crazy puzzle that we have to solve,
0:49:14 complicated and unlikely, though it may be.
0:49:19 But the advice I guess I would give to my former self,
0:49:24 which I now actually give to everyone
0:49:28 is to really think about what you specifically can do,
0:49:30 not just what needs to be done.
0:49:34 The way that each person can contribute
0:49:37 to addressing the climate crisis is going to be different.
0:49:40 And so I have this concept, this framework
0:49:42 of a climate action Venn diagram.
0:49:45 And the idea is just three circles.
0:49:47 And the first circle is what are you good at?
0:49:50 So like what specifically are you bringing to the table,
0:49:53 your skills, your resources, your networks, right?
0:49:55 Like what do you have to offer?
0:49:58 And the second circle is what work needs doing.
0:50:00 What are the climate and justice solutions
0:50:01 you wanna focus on?
0:50:04 Like maybe fusion is your thing, right?
0:50:09 Maybe your thing is making sure we have people’s votes
0:50:10 be counted in this country.
0:50:13 So we have a better chance of getting climate policy,
0:50:14 et cetera, et cetera.
0:50:17 So, and then the third is what brings you joy.
0:50:20 And that’s gonna sound like silly,
0:50:23 probably to a lot of your listeners
0:50:26 who are like, give me the glass half empty version.
0:50:31 But I think the opportunity is that this is really work
0:50:35 for the rest of our lives to sort of turn this mess around.
0:50:38 And so if we choose to do something that’s miserable,
0:50:42 even if we’re good at it, it’s just gonna be awful.
0:50:44 And there’s so much that needs doing.
0:50:48 Why would you pick something that’s not pleasant in some way
0:50:51 or satisfying, gratifying?
0:50:54 And so doing this like actual exercise
0:50:56 with colored pencils myself was how I ended up
0:50:59 co-founding Urban Ocean Lab, a think tank
0:51:02 for the future of coastal cities as a marine biologist
0:51:05 and a policy nerd and a girl from Brooklyn concerned
0:51:10 about coastal cities getting impacted by climate change.
0:51:12 And someone who finds a lot of joy
0:51:16 in changing the rules of the game and design
0:51:18 and communication and collaboration,
0:51:21 all of those things came together in that way for me.
0:51:23 But of course, like not everyone should start
0:51:25 an ocean policy think tank.
0:51:28 So that’s my recommendation is like really think about
0:51:33 like your bespoke offering to climate solutions.
0:51:37 – Dr. Ayanna Elizabeth Johnson is a marine biologist,
0:51:39 policy expert, writer, and Brooklyn native.
0:51:41 She is co-founder of the non-profit think tank,
0:51:44 Urban Ocean Lab and the Climate Initiative,
0:51:46 the All We Can Save project.
0:51:47 She’s also the co-creator of the podcast,
0:51:51 How to Save a Planet, Dr. Johnson’s new book.
0:51:52 What if we get it right?
0:51:54 Visions of climate futures is out now.
0:51:56 She joined us from her hometown of Brooklyn.
0:51:58 Dr. Johnson, we are rooting for you.
0:52:00 We appreciate your time.
0:52:00 – Thank you.
0:52:01 Thanks for having me.
0:52:06 (upbeat music)
0:52:13 – As a group of happiness, I just celebrated a big birthday
0:52:14 as a reference to the top of the show.
0:52:19 And I had essentially the 90 people have been more important
0:52:21 to me than anyone else on the earth should come to Scotland
0:52:24 and celebrate how old I am.
0:52:28 And just some general observations from that weekend
0:52:30 and around relationships.
0:52:33 You know, if you could give your kids anything,
0:52:35 you’d want them to have a good peer group.
0:52:38 We like to think as parents that we are engineers
0:52:41 and engineer the sheep and that we have a big impact on them.
0:52:42 And this is not true.
0:52:45 My dad gave me the gift of storytelling just genetically
0:52:47 and my mom gave me a little bit of substance.
0:52:49 And I think my mom valued her friends.
0:52:50 I think I got that.
0:52:53 But the two biggest influences on my life,
0:52:55 at least growing up, were my closest friend,
0:52:58 Adam Markman, who I met in the fifth grade
0:53:01 and my friend, Lee Lotus, who I met in college.
0:53:04 And Lee is incredibly ironic and incredibly supportive
0:53:07 and sort of generous and unchecked with his emotions.
0:53:08 This is a guy who used to call me.
0:53:09 When I got a job in work in Stanley,
0:53:12 two people called me, my mom and Lee.
0:53:15 And Lee said to me, and this is like the age of 22.
0:53:17 He said, “Scott, I’m just so proud of you.”
0:53:19 And you know, 23 year old men,
0:53:22 don’t say that to other 22 year old men.
0:53:24 And I think I became much more generous
0:53:26 and much more in touch with my emotions
0:53:31 and just a little bit more of a kind of a loving friend.
0:53:33 He’s also just ridiculously fucking funny.
0:53:36 And I think I got a lot of my humor from him.
0:53:38 And my friend, Adam, was always really kind.
0:53:40 He was this really handsome dapper guy.
0:53:42 Get this in high school.
0:53:43 His parents were wealthy, mine were not.
0:53:46 Adam was not only handsome, but dressed really well.
0:53:48 He was a bit of a fashion play.
0:53:53 And he drove, get this, an Austin Healy Mark III.
0:53:56 I mean, it was like,
0:53:58 here’s this good looking 16 year old kid
0:54:00 driving a James Bond car.
0:54:03 But, and I was just not in that weight class at school.
0:54:05 But this is the kind of guy Adam was.
0:54:08 We were friends and I couldn’t find a girl
0:54:10 to go to my prom with.
0:54:13 Asked a couple of girls to go to my prom at University High.
0:54:14 And they said, “No.”
0:54:16 And Adam controlled a friend of his
0:54:18 who didn’t have a date to ask me to their prom.
0:54:19 And he was just really kind.
0:54:22 And I think a lot of the more things
0:54:24 I like about myself are just like least
0:54:26 or a function of the people I hung out with.
0:54:28 So if you could do anything for your kids,
0:54:30 and I don’t know if we can,
0:54:32 it’s really about their peer group.
0:54:34 Also, I had a lot of friends there from Florida
0:54:36 and a lot of friends that are actually quite conservative.
0:54:37 And as I’ve gotten older,
0:54:41 while I become more progressive in my political viewpoint,
0:54:42 as I realized how blessed I am,
0:54:44 and I have an obligation to try and help people
0:54:46 who aren’t as blessed as me,
0:54:47 which I think is sort of the definition
0:54:50 of someone who’s maybe a bit more progressive,
0:54:52 it’s also really informed my thinking
0:54:54 about having conservative friends,
0:54:56 having friends that go to church,
0:55:00 both of those things I do not describe me.
0:55:03 And recognizing that I do not have a monopoly on the truth.
0:55:05 And I need to surround myself with people
0:55:07 who have a much different viewpoint than me,
0:55:12 because I’m consistently discussing with these people
0:55:13 things that we disagree on,
0:55:16 and recognizing that I absolutely sometimes
0:55:18 am so fucking arrogant that I don’t know
0:55:19 even what I don’t know.
0:55:22 So bringing people that just in your life
0:55:24 that just have a different viewpoint than you.
0:55:26 Also, as I’ve gotten older,
0:55:29 I realized how important it is to make sure
0:55:32 as you get older, you keep the lanes wide.
0:55:34 And that is as I’ve gotten older, I’m an introvert,
0:55:35 it would be very easy for me.
0:55:39 My life is sort of getting a little bit narrower
0:55:40 in terms of the things I wanna do
0:55:42 and the people I wanna see.
0:55:43 I’m just getting very comfortable
0:55:44 with what I’m comfortable with
0:55:47 and very uncomfortable with what is uncomfortable.
0:55:51 And I’ve made so many good friends by moving to London
0:55:53 by hanging out with some people
0:55:55 who are a little bit more extroverted than me
0:55:58 that has forced me to engage in new relationships.
0:56:00 And I looked around the room and some of the people
0:56:01 I value the most are people
0:56:04 that I literally come into my life recently.
0:56:07 Then the other thing I would say is in terms of,
0:56:10 you know, who you decide to partner with the rest of your life.
0:56:14 The biggest decision you’ll make is who you have kids with.
0:56:15 And what you would want for your kids
0:56:19 in what I’ve figured out has been tremendously rewarding
0:56:22 for me, not even rewarding, just really fortunate,
0:56:24 is to have a partner who has good judgment
0:56:27 around your kids and just around life
0:56:28 that a series of good decisions,
0:56:30 no matter how much money you make,
0:56:31 no matter how cool you are,
0:56:34 if you’re partnered with someone who consistently makes
0:56:35 a series of bad decisions
0:56:37 and doesn’t make your life nicer
0:56:40 and isn’t kind to you as a supportive of you,
0:56:41 you’re just not gonna really enjoy yourself.
0:56:43 Anyways, that’s all I have.
0:56:44 Happy birthday to me.
0:56:46 (upbeat music)
0:56:48 This episode was produced by Caroline Shagren.
0:56:51 Jennifer Sanchez is our associate producer
0:56:52 and Drew Burroughs is our technical director.
0:56:54 Thank you for listening to the Prop G Pod
0:56:56 from the Fox Media Podcast Network.
0:56:58 We will catch you on Saturday for No Mercy, No Malice
0:57:00 as read by George Hahn.
0:57:02 And please follow our Prop G Markets Pod
0:57:05 wherever you get your pods for new episodes
0:57:07 and every Monday and Thursday.
0:57:12 And by the way, our new brand extension Raging Moderates.
0:57:16 Oh my God, 200,000 views, 200,000 downloads.
0:57:17 That’s right.
0:57:19 That’s right, spreading the word.
0:57:20 The dog is everywhere.
0:57:22 The dog is ping on everything.
0:57:32 [BLANK_AUDIO]