0:00:03 All right, look it’s Sean here. I don’t want to toot my own horn, but
0:00:06 Beep beep this is
0:00:10 This is an interview that somebody else did with me
0:00:16 David Perrell who you might know online as the writing guy he invited me out to San Francisco and
0:00:22 We did an interview for his podcast called how I write and my episode is doing so well
0:00:24 So well, it is I have this little chrome extension
0:00:29 This thing is doing 11x 11x means it is 11 times higher performing than his normal video
0:00:37 Something good is in this video that it’s doing 11x on YouTube and it’s all about storytelling. It’s all about writing
0:00:42 It’s stuff that a lot of people ask me about but I’d never have taken the time to sit down and talk about it
0:00:46 Well, David got me to sit down and tell you everything that I know about this stuff
0:00:51 I hope you like it. I was a little sick during the interview, but it was my Michael Jordan flu game
0:00:53 I came I came prepared and I brought the heat
0:00:58 I’m really hyping this up and it’s because I’m excited about it. I’m really proud of this interview
0:01:02 It’s doing really well. A lot of people are messaging me about it. So we want you asked David. Hey, can we run this on our feed?
0:01:06 You know, we took the took the episode from him. We’re gonna run on our feed
0:01:11 It’s basically an interview where he’s the interviewer and I’m the guest talking about storytelling and writing
0:01:14 So if you like those two things, you’re gonna like this episode. All right, enjoy this episode
0:01:28 Story is a five-second moment of change. Whoa, what does that mean? You want to work backwards from the emotion
0:01:31 The only things people will share is things that are lol
0:01:33 WTF
0:01:37 OMG with all the ideas now the bargain. So like what should I do next time?
0:01:43 I sit down to write the real great writers. I believe are great at framing their ideas. Oh interesting
0:01:46 So mr. Beast Steve Bartlett Dave Chappelle Hasan Minhaj
0:01:50 Those are the people I try to learn from you know, I could teach a 30-second masterclass. It’s just this
0:01:56 Sean Perry is one of those guys that I
0:02:02 Really wanted to learn from I’ve spent a lot of time thinking about how to tell better stories by listening to good storytellers
0:02:07 But Sean has really deconstructed the storytelling process and you hear people saying all the time
0:02:10 Oh storytelling is really important. You should get really good at it
0:02:15 But there’s not a lot of people who come in with concrete clear frameworks like he does
0:02:20 So this is a masterclass on storytelling. Come on in. It’s time to roll
0:02:26 All right, let’s take a quick break because I want to talk to you about some new stuff that HubSpot has now
0:02:30 They let me freestyle this ad here. So I’m gonna actually tell you what I think is interesting
0:02:35 So they have this thing called the false spotlight showing all the new features that they released in the last few months
0:02:38 And the ones that stood out to me were breeze intelligence
0:02:42 I don’t know if you’ve seen this but if you’re in HubSpot and you have let’s say a customer there
0:02:44 You can just basically add
0:02:50 Intelligence to that customer the estimated revenue for that company how many employees it has maybe their email address
0:02:52 Or their location if they’ve ever visited your page or not
0:02:58 And so you can enrich all of your data automatically with one click using this thing called breeze intelligence
0:03:03 They actually acquired a really cool company called clear bit and it’s become breeze which is great because now it’s built in
0:03:06 I always hated using two different tools to try to do this now
0:03:11 It’s all in one place and so all the data you had about your customers now just got smarter
0:03:14 So check it out. You can actually see all the stuff they released. It’s really cool website
0:03:20 Go to hubspot.com/spotlight to see them all and get the demos yourself back to this episode. I
0:03:25 Said this to you when we first show cans, but this podcast
0:03:33 Was probably the biggest increase in terms of how much I’ve admired a guest and how much that’s grown through the prep process
0:03:35 And so I just want to compliment you on that
0:03:41 and in particular, there’s a lot of things that you do really well in your writing that I’m not good at and
0:03:46 This is one of those episodes where I just have a bunch of questions
0:03:50 And I’m here to make my writing way better and the place I want to start is storytelling
0:03:54 I have no frameworks for thinking about storytelling before you do storytelling
0:03:58 Can I give you a compliment on your compliment? Yeah, so great compliment first of all very specific
0:04:02 But the second is actually it’s a writing tip, which is I didn’t
0:04:05 The thing you said where you’re like, you know
0:04:11 I started kind of going down your rabbit hole and my like whatever respect for your whatever you said like my
0:04:15 Do whatever your score went up a lot during that process
0:04:19 I learned this from these two guys Dylan and Henry they’re young guys
0:04:22 They were like 21 when I met him and they were recording these videos
0:04:26 I was like how many views these get and they were like, oh nobody watches these and I’m like
0:04:31 But you guys are like really trying like is it like someday somebody will watch these he’s like
0:04:36 Yeah, specifically we’re creating a binge bank. I was like, what’s a binge bank and he goes
0:04:42 It’s when you basically stack materials so that like even though each one of these if we just looked at the view counts
0:04:46 It’d be kind of discouraging like not that many people read this or watch this
0:04:50 But they were like we started thinking about it differently instead
0:04:57 We said alright each one is not getting that many views, but I’m creating a bank where if somebody ever said I’m curious about this guy
0:04:59 I want to learn more. What is this guy all about?
0:05:04 That in the next hour you would walk out with like my reputation would be way higher with you, right?
0:05:08 Like you would feel like you know me you would like me you would respect me and it changed the way
0:05:12 I thought about that and so then I because I used to not I used to like be like very
0:05:17 Results driven. It’s like off. It’s not immediately paying off. It’s hard for me to get excited about it
0:05:23 But when I thought of the binge bank, I just thought oh I need to create this library that if anybody like if David
0:05:27 It’s gonna do research is gonna spend an hour or two hours going like down the rabbit hole
0:05:32 I need to leave a little breadcrumb trail that by the end. He’s like I love this guy. I’m all about this guy
0:05:38 Guess where I ended up guess what like the final thing was which was like the shebang of alright
0:05:41 I told the blog post that I probably forgot about as my guess
0:05:46 That 40 page PDF with all your main principles that was like the pool
0:05:51 I swam right for the longest and I ended up there. Yeah, who knows but like that’s that you leave that trail
0:05:55 You could probably should probably do it better, but like this idea of create a binge bank
0:05:58 I think is so much more valuable than a resume or a portfolio
0:06:05 It’s like people will come knocking they will get curious about you and like give them a way to
0:06:11 To just binge your content like it’s a Netflix show and by after two hours
0:06:17 They should feel like you’re the man. That’s that’s a goal. I think people should have so what do you do to do that intentionally?
0:06:21 Well, the first thing is like you don’t get discouraged by like how small your thing is today
0:06:25 That was like the first part which is if you create something and the feedback group is not quite there
0:06:29 You’re either gonna just willpower your way to keep going
0:06:36 You’re gonna be a very wise person and say results. Take time. I’m neither of those things bad at willpower and not that wise
0:06:41 Right like I I kind of know that’s the answer, but it’s hard. So it’s a way to trick yourself and
0:06:45 The way to trick yourself is to say. Oh, yeah
0:06:50 I’m this one thing. It doesn’t have to like go viral for this to be successful. This is for my binge bank
0:06:55 I know the idea of a binge bank is important. I want to have that as an asset. That’s there for me
0:07:02 So what are the 10 things that somebody should go consume and I started paying attention to that and start putting that together
0:07:10 One of the things that you are very good at is that I feel like you’re just good at learning skills putting names to them
0:07:12 And this is a good time to dive into the storytelling
0:07:13 So I guess that you had this whole day
0:07:17 You’re like, oh, I’m gonna go check out Aaron Sorkin and he always comes back to like this one core principle
0:07:23 Tell me about what you’ve learned from storytelling and then maybe even like the meta of how you learn new skills
0:07:26 The story-telling is cool because you know, I
0:07:32 Think everybody intuitively knows storytelling is a pretty dope ability and I look for this mismatch between
0:07:37 Things that have a lot of value, but you’re not taught or even better
0:07:42 It sounds kind of lame to say you’re working on it. Like if I find that I’m like, oh, this is good
0:07:45 another example of that to me is
0:07:46 enthusiasm
0:07:53 Anybody who’s been around somebody who’s like got high-energy enthusiasm you like that person that’s inherently like a it’s a very likable trait
0:07:55 Of course, there’s over-the-top obnoxious version
0:07:59 But generally you want to err on the side of have energy have enthusiasm
0:08:02 Those are people you want to do projects with work with be involved with
0:08:06 But nobody will ever be like, yeah, I’m practicing my
0:08:11 enthusiasm like I’m practicing this that sentence doesn’t even compute
0:08:17 So if there’s a thing that has value that other people don’t practice or try at and even better
0:08:20 It’s like almost taboo or lame to say you do it
0:08:28 I’ve found that those skills are actually like premium skills to me because you’d almost like differentiate yourself in the marketplace
0:08:31 Storytelling is another one of those joke. Telling is another one of those like if you’re like
0:08:38 I am working on like getting funnier. They’re like, are you trying to be a comedian? No, like you like funny people though, right?
0:08:41 Yeah, of course everybody does whether it’s relationships work
0:08:47 Content creation, whatever you’re doing if you’re humor level if you’re more humorous people will like it better
0:08:53 Nobody practices. So it’s like what do you expect? Just, you know, it’s magically happened like we kind of know everything comes back
0:09:00 Everything is downstream of practice. So storytelling is one of those skills where I knew that I loved it whenever I met somebody
0:09:04 Who’s a great storyteller? I wanted to get better at it. So then who’s the best in the world at this, right?
0:09:09 That’s the next question. One of the people that came to mind when I googled around was Aaron Sorkin
0:09:15 He’s written, you know famous TV shows on even West Wing newsroom the social network movie
0:09:19 It’s great for writing dialogue and in these interviews, he says this thing
0:09:22 He’s like, they’re like, what’s the key to storytelling?
0:09:28 Like can you teach a like a three-hour masterclass? He’s like, I could teach a 32nd masterclass like it’s just this
0:09:29 It’s
0:09:36 Intention and obstacle and he said it even better. He goes I worship at the altar of intention and obstacle
0:09:38 And I was like, I don’t know what the hell he’s talking about
0:09:44 But the way this guy’s serious about it tells me like I need to go dig in. What is he talking about?
0:09:50 So, what does this mean intention and obstacle is just at any given moment the the hero of the story
0:09:55 Whether it’s you or someone you’re talking about has to have a very clear intention. What do they want and?
0:10:00 Under that is like, why do they want it? How bad do they want it? What happens if they don’t get it, right?
0:10:03 That’s what goes into intention and then obstacle like who’s in the way, right?
0:10:08 So, you know Harry Potter wants to live what’s in his way Voldemort’s trying to kill him the most powerful wizard of all
0:10:13 Time’s trying to kill him right intention and obstacle and basically if you watch if you read any story
0:10:18 Or you watch any movie you should be able to pause at any moment and just point at the screen and just say
0:10:21 What’s what do they want right now and what’s in their way?
0:10:28 And if you ever go like five minutes without that being clear people will lose attention their attention will drift away and so
0:10:35 Once I realized that I made that the central premise of any story and what I realized was that
0:10:38 this was a
0:10:42 incredibly powerful tool it is the fundamental like building block of storytelling and
0:10:48 The more interesting thing which we could talk about is it doesn’t have to be life or death
0:10:54 So most people think of it when like the example like you and gave was Harry Potter trying to live and eat most evil
0:10:56 We’re just trying to kill him. Okay, cool
0:11:02 but you can shrink that down and actually you get bonus points when you can do intention and obstacle on a
0:11:07 Lower stakes moment. So I wanted a croissant and all the places were closed
0:11:12 But I need my croissant you need your croissant and the but the audience has to believe that you truly needed it
0:11:18 And you got to tell it be like you got to make them believe that you really want it ideally because you actually did right?
0:11:23 You know, you don’t have to fabricate the story should be real. I’ll give you an example. I was at a
0:11:26 Like executive off-site
0:11:30 My company had just got acquired like I put on the exact team of this now like 2,000 person company and
0:11:33 I don’t I feel a little out of place
0:11:39 I have never worked in a company bigger than 20 people and I wanted to use storytelling to kind of like
0:11:44 As a crutch as that’s one of my tools in my toolkit. How can I use this to better myself? Alright, so
0:11:47 we’re supposed to go around the circle and like
0:11:51 Say what’s been going on or like what’s something what’s this?
0:11:54 What’s something recently that happened that you want to share with the group some BS like
0:11:59 Icebreaker and every single person just did it in a work context. Oh, we’re working on this thing
0:12:03 But then this person on my team has did this problem or they quit or whatever
0:12:07 Oh, we’re gonna this thing, but then legal said this and it’s got like boring boring boring and
0:12:12 I was like, yeah recently had a big moment big day and
0:12:21 Okay pause, right get people curious. I said, um, I just moved out of the house young rights
0:12:24 I was like, I just moved out of the house. I’m living in my own place
0:12:28 I’ve been living there for a year now, but I’ve never invited my mom over and my mom’s in badgering
0:12:31 Why don’t you invite me over what she doesn’t know is I’d never invite her over because I
0:12:36 Don’t want to I don’t know how to host. She was always the host if someone came over
0:12:41 I don’t know how to do adult things. So people are kind of laughing right because I’m but I’m like I was like
0:12:45 I had been trying to get her to like treat me like an adult, but the reality was
0:12:48 I’m like, I’m not I’m actually still a little boy, right?
0:12:52 And so I tell the story about how my mom comes over and I had decided to cook
0:12:56 I decided to cook Brussels sprouts most adult food there is problem is don’t know how to cook Brussels sprouts
0:12:59 so I’m doing it, blah, blah, blah, and I tell the store of cooking the Brussels sprouts and
0:13:02 I kid you not everybody’s like everybody’s entertained
0:13:07 They listen to it and during the break everybody made a point to come up and be like dude that Brussels sprouts story is hilarious
0:13:13 that was so that was so funny what was that and what even just happened they kind of couldn’t even explain it and
0:13:21 For me, it was just another example of using storytelling even on low stakes moments actually builds likeability and
0:13:27 Fandom more so than the dramatic. I was skiing and there was an avalanche
0:13:32 That’s cool, but it’s unrelatable and actually there’s something fundamentally unlikable about it and I want to write
0:13:38 Usually if I want to write something it’s because I’m trying to whatever I’m trying to have fun
0:13:39 but I’m also trying to
0:13:42 build an audience of people who like me or fans of me or
0:13:48 Get customers who want to you know buy my product or whatever. I try to use likeability for that. It was interesting
0:13:49 I was at a
0:13:54 Sort of a very fancy there’s like multi-billionaires house and it was one of those dinners where everyone is like
0:13:58 You know people had flown in for the dinner and there’s like an Olympian who’s sitting across the table
0:14:06 I was like a big fan of grown-up and and we’re all going around doing introductions, and it’s my time to do the introduction
0:14:12 So I’m nervous. I really want to impress everybody like one of my childhood heroes and not a cork
0:14:19 And I you know sort of put myself up and I talked about this is what I do for a living and I’m like
0:14:27 Thrushed, you know, man everyone love this and we’re we’re hanging out after after dinner and back in my apartment my body goes
0:14:32 Yo, you did the worst job ever like that was a horrible intro
0:14:38 It’s like what are you talking about every word to the bone like have my one-liners like ready to go crushed it. He’s like
0:14:40 No
0:14:46 You were just trying to sound impressive in a moment like that you tell a funny story or you make a joke and you light in the
0:14:52 Mute you did exactly the wrong thing, right? Yeah, that’s first of all great friend great friend
0:14:55 Great friend. Can we call that out and you’re absolutely right?
0:15:00 I learned this from Hasan Minhaj the comedian because I was gonna go on stage
0:15:05 I was like hey dude like you do this for a living. I don’t want to do this stuff and he goes you want to
0:15:08 He goes comedy is a low status game
0:15:11 So he goes, you know, you’re gonna be up on stage and you’re nervous
0:15:14 So your natural tendency is gonna be to puff your chest out to kind of project
0:15:16 this false bravado
0:15:18 but he’s like
0:15:21 actually what you want to do is build connection with people and you build connection with people through
0:15:25 vulnerability through
0:15:27 low low stakes through
0:15:31 Low status specifically he starts his comedy special
0:15:35 I went and wrote it out to try to like understand what he does his last comedy special
0:15:41 He starts out. He’s sitting on a stool. He’s talking about how intention him and his wife been trying to get pregnant
0:15:46 And they haven’t been able to and they went to a doctor and he’s like the worst news ever
0:15:49 It was my fault. My balls don’t work basically, right?
0:15:55 Like is there a lower status thing as a guy than to be like I’d be on my junk doesn’t doesn’t just the way
0:15:59 Like that that word choice is inherently funny
0:16:04 Exactly. And so, you know, he’s obviously a master at this and trying to trying to learn from people who are like
0:16:09 I’m in business. I don’t try to learn how to be a better storyteller or a better writer from business people
0:16:15 Why would I do that? I would try to learn from the people who their thing is storytelling or writing or
0:16:19 Entertainment because they’re gonna be the best at this, you know, Aaron Sorkin
0:16:26 Comedians those are the people I try to learn from and so I think that was one principle that sounds like you you learn the lesson the hard way too
0:16:30 How is storytelling different for you in writing versus speaking?
0:16:33 It’s not that different
0:16:37 In general one of my biggest writing rules is right like you talk
0:16:40 Most people have this false
0:16:46 Thing we do. I think it’s from school like school kind of teaches you like they’re like read Shakespeare
0:16:48 Write these essays, you know, I need six pages
0:16:55 Six pages minimum, you know double spaced, you know, all this stuff use a big vocabulary
0:16:59 It’s all the things that don’t work in the real world. You learn in school
0:17:04 I think what school teaches you is basically just pretend like hey be something. You’re totally not
0:17:07 That’s what good writing is
0:17:10 In the real world, I don’t think that’s true. I think, you know
0:17:16 Good writing is simple good writing is easy to read good writing is entertaining to read good writing has a voice
0:17:20 It’s not just like this, you know, archaic sounding thing
0:17:23 So anyways, you know, one of the principles is right like you talk
0:17:29 So if I’m gonna write a story, I will actually say it first and I’ll just write down what I said
0:17:35 That’s like a starting point for me because for most people and myself included if you sit down the like blank page
0:17:40 You know of death is like the most intimidating thing. It’s very hard to even get started
0:17:46 But if you are stuck and so you just say, okay, so what is the story like forget the words?
0:17:49 What are you trying to say?
0:17:52 I’m trying to tell a story about the one time with the most spots and blah blah blah
0:17:54 Cool. What makes it interesting? All right, great
0:18:00 Where did it start? What’s the start of the story? Well, sir is when I blah blah blah and what’s the end?
0:18:03 Well, the end is when this happened. All right, cool
0:18:06 Sounds like you got a beginning middle end. You know what happened and you roughly hit the outline
0:18:09 cool, maybe now start writing and so
0:18:14 Right like you talk is an important principle and then the other thing is there are nuances that are different
0:18:19 So for example in writing, I’ll use a ton of like parentheses because you can’t do that in
0:18:26 You kind of you can break the fourth wall basically when when you write but when you talk it would be like me saying
0:18:30 So we were going this way, you know, we always take that route, right?
0:18:35 It’s like that’s a parentheses when you’re talking when you’re writing. It’s actually much easier to do
0:18:38 but when you’re talking you can use pauses a
0:18:44 Dramatic pause. How do you do a dramatic pause in writing? It’s kind of hard to do you have to like use like line breaks or
0:18:49 Whatever right like you got to try that so you some tools are a little bit different
0:18:53 But I would say 80 to 90 percent of it is the same to me
0:18:56 Have you learned anything about the pacing of a story like the
0:19:02 How you drag it out or compress it like does that change for different platforms? How do you think about that? Definitely?
0:19:06 You know, I think another misconception is
0:19:11 Shorter the better, you know too long is too boring and actually
0:19:17 You know anything could be any length. It just says you can only be as long as it is interesting
0:19:23 Let’s say general rule it can only be as long as it is interesting if you can go this long
0:19:27 You know a long, you know blog posts, but it’s interesting the whole way fantastic. That’s the right way
0:19:34 However, you should always try to understand like what is your level of credibility or buy-in with the audience?
0:19:37 So here in a podcast you can kind of riff in a podcast
0:19:41 You can be like dude what we could talk about something we said in the lobby or be like
0:19:46 Oh, you just had Sam Almond on to see the bodyguard like we could just not talk about writing for five minutes
0:19:47 Totally fine
0:19:50 However, if it’s cold traffic on the internet
0:19:54 You better have like an amazing headline and a first line that’s gonna hook people and be right about the
0:19:58 Match that what the headline was because you don’t you don’t have that reputation with them
0:20:03 so if you know your audience’s level of buy-in with you you can kind of
0:20:08 Dance around subjects versus be very direct and immediate and try to provide value right away
0:20:14 To hook people right away. So, you know tiktok is a platform where you’re swiping
0:20:19 Like and if it’s not interesting the first like 0.9 seconds, you’re gone. So on tiktok
0:20:23 You see people right away try to say a thing on podcasts. You’ll see people shoot the shit
0:20:29 And build, you know, there’s a chemistry thing because people aren’t gonna swipe away from the podcast in the first 30 seconds
0:20:34 It’s not usually how people consume podcasts. And so you got to know your medium and you got to know your audience
0:20:38 What’s the level of buy-in you have? How do you think about the hooks for a story?
0:20:40 like one of the things I’ve noticed with comedians and
0:20:47 Really studied is how fast they’re able to build context. They can do it like six to eight words
0:20:51 Where some people just go on and on and on and on and on it drones and
0:20:56 That hook of how you bring people into the story is super important. I
0:20:59 agree
0:21:05 However, so what is so hook is basically it’s the first thing you’re gonna say it’s trying to hook their attention great
0:21:09 I think actually right now for the type of person who’s gonna listen to this
0:21:16 You probably have studied a little bit of copyrighting maybe or you kind of pay attention to what like oh this person’s blown up on Twitter
0:21:20 What do they do? Oh, they were like, you know, they write their threads and the first line of their thread is like
0:21:29 Here’s the unbelievable story about how this, you know, Chinese immigrant took a simple thimble and turned it into ten billion dollars
0:21:35 Whatever some like unbelievable sounding look that you’re like, oh, you have to pick. It’s like maximum clickbait, right?
0:21:40 I actually think that hooks somewhat overrated underrated is frames. So what’s a frame?
0:21:43 So a frame is you take an idea and
0:21:48 Idea can be this big or it can be this big depending on the frame. So I
0:21:51 can be like
0:21:54 You know, what’s this? I don’t have a good example top my head
0:21:57 But we’ll do one that we just talked about that husband is a comedy thing, right?
0:22:00 I told a little story about what he’s doing in
0:22:03 In his opening line. So I could just say
0:22:09 Here’s what he did it at the start of his thing. I could say here’s what you can learn about public speaking
0:22:12 From one of the greatest public speakers in the world
0:22:16 Us a minute, right? So I could take the same content where I’m gonna talk about
0:22:22 Starting with a low status thing, but I can put it in the frame of this is not just for comedians
0:22:27 This is actually when you’re at a dinner party and you’re supposed to make an intro and you don’t know what to hell to say
0:22:30 This is how to not make an ass out of yourself
0:22:34 You change the frame and so I think that more important than a hook
0:22:40 Which is just like a grab you by the throat attention grabber is think about how you’re gonna frame your ideas
0:22:42 hooks are about
0:22:44 The words you’re gonna write
0:22:50 Frames are about the idea and how you’re gonna make that idea relevant and how you’re gonna connect two ideas that seem unrelated
0:22:54 To be related the real great writers. I believe are
0:22:57 great at framing their ideas more so than like
0:23:00 Just coming up with that perfect one-line hook thing
0:23:05 That’s gonna like, you know, just kind of trick the person into clicking. Yeah, let’s get super concrete here
0:23:09 so you wrote a super viral thread on Clubhouse and
0:23:12 this was the
0:23:15 Standard way to do a frame so it says one
0:23:19 Parenthesis Clubhouse existential threat number one time-to-value
0:23:27 Ratio Lex let’s brainstorm and you’re like jargon fancy words. I wasn’t right. That was somebody else. Yeah, exactly
0:23:32 Yeah, I don’t like it. It like it brainstorm like no storyline and then it didn’t do that well and
0:23:38 You come in you’re like so dot dot dot. Everyone seems to think Clubhouse is the next big thing
0:23:40 But I think it’s gonna fail
0:23:45 Here’s how I think it all goes down. Yes. Why did you choose that?
0:23:48 So that if you compare the two and like on your YouTube you should put these like side by side
0:23:54 So people could see it the other one was written by this guy Chris who created an app that was kind of like Clubhouse went super viral
0:23:58 It’s called secret back in the day. I don’t know if you remember this. It’s called secret with super viral
0:24:04 They could raise like a hundred million dollars the founder like sold some secondary bought a Ferrari like it was like the hit product for like
0:24:06 A very short window of time and then it died
0:24:13 So if anyone has the credibility to say why Clubhouse might fail that guy was actually the guy the problem was
0:24:20 He was extremely dry told no story and just said and use like very like
0:24:26 You know 12th grade reading level jargon like Clubhouse is existential threat
0:24:30 But the time to value ratio like immediately felt like homework
0:24:37 Whereas my thing was everybody thinks x but I think why and more the most important part was
0:24:40 Here’s how I think it’s gonna go down. Not here’s why I’m right
0:24:45 So here’s how it’s gonna go down is basically like gossip. It’s story
0:24:53 Here’s why is logic and rationale. So that’s kind of why I wrote it that way was and then the rest of the thread
0:24:57 the reason this thread got like 20 million people to read it was because I
0:25:04 Wrote it almost like a screenplay. I was like I didn’t say here’s the five problems with Clubhouse
0:25:09 I wrote you’re the founder of Clubhouse. First of all, fuck. Yeah, you know, you’re winning
0:25:12 Everybody’s talking about your app. Your app is cool. You know cognizant your DMs
0:25:17 VCs and throwing money at you and I set it up, right? Like you that’s the setup
0:25:21 That’s you right now and already, you know, if you’re reading that this is not how most
0:25:30 business tech Twitter writing goes most business tech Twitter writing goes is it it’s an intelligence contest and I was telling a story and
0:25:32 And so, you know, that’s why I think it worked
0:25:35 I think if I had written it with the you know, me trying to be the
0:25:40 9,000 IQ guy in the room, it would not have worked. So when you see people say that I’m
0:25:46 Writing now and I’m like, all right, I’m not gonna do intelligence contest. I’m gonna try to
0:25:52 Do exactly what Aaron Sorkin said. There’s intention and there’s obstacle
0:25:55 I’m gonna frame what I’m saying in terms of story
0:25:59 I’m gonna focus on the frame and say that my writing still it’s just like, yo, this is lame
0:26:01 What do you think is going on there that?
0:26:05 Makes it feel dry or like it lacks a sense of momentum
0:26:09 Well in the same way that comedy is great, but not every line should be a joke
0:26:15 Storytelling is great. And not every piece of content needs a story. So I think one challenge is like I wrote that one as a story
0:26:19 It did great. That doesn’t mean everything. I write online is like
0:26:23 Screenplay story type of thing that worked in that situation. It’s not gonna work in every situation
0:26:28 So you got to know like the tools and when to use them hammers not good if you’re just trying to open a door
0:26:33 Sometimes a key is what you need. And so that’s the first thing. Don’t just force it in
0:26:37 The second thing is like you probably need reps like I don’t know. I’ve done this a lot of times
0:26:40 That wasn’t the first story I’ve ever written. So if you’re like, cool
0:26:48 I’m gonna get better at storytelling be prepared like tell a hundred stories starting with maximum cringe and get to not cringe
0:26:55 Right like but it’s gonna take a hundred expect that it’s gonna take a hundred stabs at this and specifically into a hundred
0:27:00 Intelligent reps. So it’s like do it and then the next one you have to be like, what could I do better?
0:27:06 Oh, my hook was a little weak there or oh, you know, it droned on too long or I don’t really have a point
0:27:07 Maybe this shouldn’t have been a story
0:27:10 Maybe you should have been something else and so hundred reps were each one
0:27:13 You try to say what’s one thing I could do better than the last time just one thing
0:27:17 That’s it and then you just keep going and if you can do a hundred of those then I bet your stories will work
0:27:22 It’s not gonna be it’s not gonna feel forced because you’ll learn the skill through those hundred reps
0:27:24 This is the mr. Beast ism of
0:27:26 He’s like everybody asked me like how do you do YouTube good?
0:27:32 He’s like I tell him all the same exact thing make a hundred videos and every video make well make do something better than you did before
0:27:37 Any well anything doesn’t matter what is one thing better than four do a hundred then come back and talk to me
0:27:42 And he’s like two things happen first of all nobody does it they all wanted just like some answer
0:27:47 They know that no intention of actually going and doing the work and then of the few people who actually do the work
0:27:50 They never need to talk to me again by the hundredth one. They figured it out. They’re doing great
0:27:52 I think they’re like they never come back for advice
0:27:57 That’s why it’s the perfect advice to give someone because it’s true and it saves both of us the hassle
0:28:01 You know if you actually followed it. Yeah, what did you learn from story worthy?
0:28:07 Story worthy is an amazing book by this like teacher guy who’s like
0:28:13 The 20-time storytelling champion of the moth storyteller. I didn’t I didn’t even know what this thing was
0:28:17 But whatever if you’re the champion of something I paid a little bit of attention
0:28:20 He’s got this book and in the book. It’s basically how to tell better stories. I
0:28:28 Would say you know probably worth reading the book. He’s got one thing that I really took which was stakes. So he’s like
0:28:33 Every great story needs stakes meaning if the story is intention and obstacle
0:28:39 But if you don’t make it clear what’s at stake for the for the person if they don’t get it
0:28:46 Then the story’s not gonna have very not be very compelling. So, you know, when you tell a story
0:28:48 Let’s say it’s the and it doesn’t have to be high stakes
0:28:49 Like it doesn’t he’s actually very again
0:28:53 He’s the other thing he says is like don’t tell like it goes like vacation romps
0:28:56 So it’s like don’t just tell a story about this great night
0:29:00 You had this party was like nobody cares. Nobody wants to hear about your vacation
0:29:04 Nobody wants to hear about your cool college party you went to like just fundamentally those are bad stories
0:29:09 The second thing is like a great story is not just I was swimming in the ocean and the shark bit me and I survived
0:29:13 Like it doesn’t need to be extreme and again. It’s actually almost better if it’s not
0:29:19 But you still need stakes, so how do you have stakes even if it’s not a shark biting you off and his answer was
0:29:22 The stakes come from the emotion
0:29:25 So as long as you believe that that other person was gonna feel a certain way
0:29:27 Then the story has stakes
0:29:31 So for example, if I’m trying to impress my mom doing the Brussels sprouts thing
0:29:36 Embarrassment is what’s on the line, right? Like I’m gonna be embarrassed and my ego is gonna take a hit
0:29:38 So as long as you believe that that’s true for me
0:29:42 The story will be entertaining when it’s proper when I actually tell it when it’s actually delivered
0:29:47 The other one he says is because what is a story story is a five-second moment of change
0:29:51 Whoa, what is happening a five-second? So he’s like, you know
0:29:55 Everything in you tell in the story
0:30:00 Comes to this one moment. There’s five seconds where the characters transform, you know
0:30:05 Just I use movies because it’s easier that most people don’t have like a big archive of writing in their head
0:30:10 But like we’ve all watched the same shows and movies every rom-com is like some version of the following
0:30:16 You the guy’s a player and he’s never gonna settle down. That’s the start of the movie or she’s a high-powered lawyer
0:30:20 It was doing great in her career, but never made enough time for love. That’s always the start of the story
0:30:25 There’s only two rom-coms, right? Like she was in love that she thought they would get happily married
0:30:27 He broke her heart start of the rom-com
0:30:33 So well guess what the ending of the rom-coms gonna be always the exact opposite of that if she was the high-powered lawyer
0:30:36 Who never made time for love she’s not gonna be in love and she’s gonna actually
0:30:38 quit her job as a lawyer and
0:30:43 Be like open up a bakery right like that’s how the movie’s gonna end or if he didn’t want to settle down
0:30:48 And he was a player by the end. He’s gonna be chasing her and he’s gonna like proposed her right
0:30:49 He’s gonna want to settle down
0:30:56 So spoiler for all rom-coms ever and it’s actually all movies ever die hard Jurassic Park
0:30:59 You could do the same exercise watch the opening one minute
0:31:01 The end is gonna be that character
0:31:07 The opposite of his current lifestyle or belief system or habits
0:31:13 You know Scrooge hates Christmas he loves Christmas or whatever it’s all every movie every story is the same
0:31:19 So the heart of the story is the five-second moment when they actually made the transformation when they switched
0:31:25 And it’s usually when they lost it all when they had the heartbreak when they hit rock bottom when they had no choice
0:31:28 But to be brave because they were finally cornered like whatever it is, right?
0:31:34 You know in Batman when it’s like he’s in the cave and he’s got to get out and nobody’s ever made it out
0:31:37 I don’t know if you remember this part of the Dark Knight or one of one of the Batman movies and
0:31:43 The mentor was like only one person’s ever got out. He’s like how did he do it?
0:31:47 He’s like he didn’t use the rope. They’re like maybe basically he jumped with no safety net
0:31:51 And so the five-second moment of change is the character
0:31:55 Climbs up the thing takes off the rope if he doesn’t make this jump
0:32:01 He’s gonna die but actually because he was gonna because of that makes the leap it actually makes it that’s the transformation moment
0:32:08 Everything is based all stories. Yeah, if you don’t know what’s the five-second moment of change for the kid for the main character
0:32:11 You don’t really have a great story. How does this?
0:32:17 Apply or not apply to like the story of a company like I’m trying to tell the story for a passage or
0:32:22 You know, you think of all these companies always starting a garage. We have no money. That’s what we believe right?
0:32:26 You have Airbnb you have like the Obama owes and then you have Brian Chesky
0:32:32 Who’s like going to the houses and he’s like taking photos with his own camera. He’s like doing the hustle
0:32:34 It’s like these founders really believe so how does
0:32:39 How do we take these ideas and apply it to what we’re building the origin story of all
0:32:42 Sully Malley companies is similar. So let’s take Airbnb for example
0:32:45 What was the you know moment of change?
0:32:49 the moment of change the origin story of Airbnb is
0:32:52 We were
0:32:56 Broke jokes who had right the beginning of the rom-com were broke jokes
0:32:59 Not only do we not have a successful company. We didn’t even have an idea
0:33:02 so like we were
0:33:03 the worst
0:33:12 Situations for an entrepreneur no money no team no idea no respect no reputation no nothing right even worse wrong founding DNA
0:33:19 We were all designers and the narrative was you got to be an engineer to build a you gotta be a developer to build a tech company tech company and
0:33:20 so
0:33:24 Well, the moment of change was basically they I think they had no money
0:33:27 like they didn’t have enough money to
0:33:34 Pay rent or something like that. So the moment of change is basically one of them had a crazy idea to be like, hey, what if we
0:33:40 Rent out our space here for this. There’s a design conference in town. What if we create a like
0:33:44 Bed and breakfast for people who are coming because all the hotels are sold out
0:33:48 The bed and breakfast we don’t have a we don’t have a hotel and they’re like well
0:33:54 We just put an air mattress here and they laughed and they’re like whatever and then three people came stayed paid the money
0:33:59 And had a great time. They’re like holy shit. This might be a thing and then there’s several holy shit moments, right? There’s like
0:34:04 We ran out of money again. So we did the Obama owes serial thing we
0:34:10 They tell the story about when they were getting knocked off by a big by the Samoa brothers of rocket internet
0:34:13 They were cloning their company and gonna kill them and he tells that story. It’s like
0:34:19 We you know face this life or death and death moment and then we had to make a decision and we changed
0:34:23 We went from being scared to be like, all right, we’re gonna compete with these guys
0:34:26 We’re gonna beat them and that’s the moment
0:34:32 That’s that’s what the each of those micro stories is about the way I’ve learned this is you have what’s called signature stories
0:34:34 so your signature stories are
0:34:40 The like the four or five stories that if I only could tell you these four or five you would know
0:34:46 Everything there is to know really about me. So for example, your origins story like for you with right of passage
0:34:51 What’s the origin story? Like I’m assuming you didn’t just create this cuz life was good
0:34:57 You already were good at everything and and you know, there must have been some moment where you were like
0:35:02 I got to do something here. Will you help me improve my origin? Yeah, give me what it is right now. All right, so I
0:35:09 Worked this job at this New York advertising agency and I was super intimidated by my boss. He’s like six four
0:35:13 You know big beer. He’s just not like super welcoming guy
0:35:20 super talented super talented and I wasn’t doing super well my job and he sort of calls me into his office and I was working on a
0:35:25 pitch deck for Cardi I was trying to be all impressive and stuff like that and
0:35:27 I
0:35:32 Wrote in the pitch deck that the idea that we had was gonna be epic
0:35:39 And he was like, yo, that is not a good word to be using. You’re not he said something to the effect of you’re not in college anymore
0:35:41 we don’t write like that here and
0:35:48 Then through writing that sentence he then started saying hey, you really need to improve your writing
0:35:52 You’re just not a good writer and I was like, well, you know, I tried learning to write in school
0:35:56 I don’t even like writing my cold job is writing and I got to get good at this
0:36:02 So that was in like November then we go through December. I get it raised. I’m like, oh my goodness
0:36:05 This is gonna be great. Life’s going well then January 5th
0:36:07 seven months out of college I
0:36:09 get laid off and
0:36:16 Of course my head. I’m like I got laid off because I’m not a good writer
0:36:20 Oh, I got to learn this crap, but I don’t even like writing
0:36:25 But then I’m seeing all these people who are good at writing and they’re just making moves on the internet and stuff
0:36:27 So I spend
0:36:33 Years two three years and I’m learning how to write to start building an audience and during that time people reach out to me
0:36:34 They’re like, hey, you’re pretty good at this
0:36:38 Can you start teaching me how to do it and I’m like wait, I learned all these things on my own
0:36:42 I had to figure these things out at a desperation for how to learn how to write
0:36:46 Then that led into write a passage and that’s how the company got started
0:36:50 Okay, great. So let’s workshop that cool. All right, so
0:36:55 Let’s go back to the origin. Let’s do so. There’s a beginning middle and then beginning your start of your rom-com
0:37:01 You’re working in a job. You’re not you said you’re not doing so well your boss kind of embarrasses you
0:37:05 And you ended up getting laid off act one or of the movie
0:37:09 I think to make that part just to make that part better
0:37:13 So I think you have the element there act three is I you know, so we know act one is gonna be
0:37:16 Don’t like my job and my job doesn’t like me
0:37:19 Even worse my job doesn’t like me, right?
0:37:26 Second part is I’m not doing so well and I’m kind of embarrassed and I’m kind of intimidated by my boss great super relatable super likable all that
0:37:34 You have a moment where you got specifically embarrassed around the epic thing calling you like a college kid or whatever and you’re like, okay
0:37:36 hopelessness
0:37:39 Max Payne got laid off cool and I’m sure you had some feelings about that
0:37:45 Act three is now I get paid millions of dollars to teach people writing and I’m doing a podcast interviewing my writing
0:37:48 Heroes and they’re like dude, you’re awesome. I’m a big fan
0:37:53 Okay, great. So we have the element of an amazing story. How do we actually make it better? Yeah?
0:37:54 So the first part is
0:38:00 You’re act one you didn’t focus on the pain enough of the intention and the obstacle and the feelings you had at that time
0:38:05 So for example, you said I wasn’t doing too good at the time and then you’re like, but then I got promoted or raised
0:38:09 So I don’t know what that is right, uh, you know, you might as well leave the promotion or raise out
0:38:11 It doesn’t really add to the story
0:38:14 Confusing conflicting messages, right?
0:38:19 Never let the truth get in the way of a great story. Let’s start with that. So why did you not think you were doing well?
0:38:23 The company was constantly trying to figure out what do we do with this person?
0:38:26 I can’t believe this happened, but he literally
0:38:33 Brought me into his office and he goes I need you to stop thinking like Jeff Bezos and I was like
0:38:38 Can you explain he’s like do your job? You are a sales guy focus on that
0:38:41 I don’t want you focus on the the future of media and where that’s going
0:38:45 And so there’s just a lot of tension there and he and I never really got along that well, right?
0:38:50 So yeah, I think you want to I’m bet you if you zoomed in go back to the memory bank
0:38:55 And you remember like any moments where you felt the opposite of how you’re gonna feel at the end at the end
0:39:00 You feel really proud and you’ve accomplished and you’ve overcome but at the beginning you probably felt embarrassed
0:39:06 You know somewhat insecure whatever. So for example if you were like I
0:39:11 Yeah, I remember there was this new guy that just got hired and I was training
0:39:15 I was like trying to like welcome him and train him a little bit and then he got promoted before I did
0:39:18 I’m doing something wrong or you know at my performance review
0:39:25 I remember there’s a category for pros and he had like three words and then cause or whatever like needs needs improvement was huge
0:39:29 right a little anecdote like that I think will like make that more real of
0:39:35 What was the moments where you said if you said I wasn’t doing so well that it really hit home for you
0:39:40 You know something like that. Let me just wrap everything. We’ve spoken about into what I’m gathering is
0:39:47 It’s the rom-com. I got my beginning. I got my end. I want a perfect yin-yang between them
0:39:51 Okay, then what I want is I want to build up to those five seconds of change
0:39:55 So I want one emotion lead up to that change that is the moment of
0:40:03 Tension where something pivots then I get to the end there is the opposite and then what I want to do is intention and
0:40:09 Outcome obstacle intention and obstacle. Thank you. So my intention is I want to be good. I want to be good at my job
0:40:14 I want to be valued I want to be respected. Actually, I could even bring it into like I want to
0:40:18 Be a worthy human being and I’m in my first job and I’m like, dude
0:40:23 You have no skills so I have that and I’m like my job is about being a writer and
0:40:30 My boss thinks that I’m not very good. So none of my obstacles. So that’s sort of what I’m getting from you, right?
0:40:32 Yes, exactly you you nailed it
0:40:38 Now let’s go to the five second because what you said was basically some version of you were like the beginning was pretty good
0:40:43 And the ending was pretty good the middle you were like so then I got laid off and so then I started thinking about well
0:40:47 I want to improve my writing sounds like an arbitrary epiphany
0:40:50 Maybe there was a mentor that told you something or maybe you read something online
0:40:56 That inspired you or maybe you had a long talk with yourself on a long walk one night and you were like, you know what screw this
0:40:59 Right, probably a moment when you decided actually I’m gonna get good at this
0:41:06 That’s usually a very important part of every story. It was like what triggered the turnaround
0:41:09 So you want to know that and they want to explain that part
0:41:14 and then you basically were like and then I got better and then everything was great and it’s like whoa
0:41:22 What do you fast forwarded the montage too fast like what triggered the turnaround and then what’d you actually go do?
0:41:24 Not like in a long specifics
0:41:29 But like what’s the first thing you started to do to get momentum and then what was like maybe some resistance you felt
0:41:35 Bet you over came because like, you know the Pixar rules for storytelling. Yeah, 22. Yeah, the most important one
0:41:37 I don’t know what the 22 say, but I remember one which was
0:41:41 Something like the hero doesn’t have to win
0:41:45 the audience loves the hero because of the way they try and
0:41:48 That was really important to me. I was like, oh, that’s right
0:41:56 Every underdog story is lovable because of how hard they try and if somebody just tries something and immediately it works
0:42:00 That’s not a very good story and you’re not very like you don’t feel good for them
0:42:06 So you got to say what you tried what resistance you felt and then how you overcame that resistance
0:42:08 It doesn’t have to be a long thing
0:42:13 But you want to make it feel real and the last thing I’m kind of emphasizing to you
0:42:15 I think anybody can do in their storytelling is
0:42:17 You’re not saying what happened
0:42:24 You’re zooming into moments to explain how you felt with ideally some relatable visual or audio like
0:42:29 Moment so it’s like I remember he said this to me and I’ll never forget these three words
0:42:35 He said, you know, like whatever some some sentence or I remember looking around and
0:42:42 You know, there was nobody else there like in Tony Robbins. I’m a big Tony Robbins fan
0:42:46 He does an amazing job telling his story. He’s like I remember sitting in my apartment
0:42:51 I looked in the bathroom and I was doing I had because I used to do dishes in the bathtub because my dishwasher didn’t work
0:42:54 So it’s soap up the bathtub. He’s all he’s trying to say is I’m a loser
0:42:56 I was a loser now. I’m super successful
0:43:02 Why because I’m Tony Robbins and I figured it out and you can too but first he has to convince you that he used to be a loser
0:43:06 Otherwise the whole Tony Robbins stick doesn’t work. So he’s like, how do I convince somebody?
0:43:11 I’m a loser I could say that I wasn’t doing too well or I could say that I used to have to wash my dishes in a bathtub
0:43:13 Because that paints a picture of a loser
0:43:18 He’s like I remember I was sitting and he says I was sit in my apartment and I didn’t have any furniture because I don’t
0:43:21 Need money so I just had this one chair like I didn’t have a sofa
0:43:23 I had a hard chair that I used to sit on
0:43:28 He’s like it was just a chair. He’s like and I remember the song was playing that was like
0:43:33 There’s some song where he’s like, I don’t have a friend or something like that’s only me in my chair
0:43:35 And he’s like dude, that’s me. It’s just me in the stupid chair
0:43:40 And he’s like so I went for a run. He’s like even though I hadn’t run in years
0:43:42 I was overweight. I went for a run and even when my lungs were burning
0:43:47 I was like no you you may be a loser at all things like but you’re not gonna lose this run
0:43:52 And he tells the story and it’s kind of inspiring when you’re hearing this and he’s just zoomed into one moment
0:43:57 That’s visual. That’s audio. That’s a feeling and he’s convinced you of that before state
0:44:02 So that the after has some impact the two things that I’m getting there is first you
0:44:08 Can tell a story a story is not a record of what happened. Absolutely
0:44:11 It is not you saying this happened this happened this happened this happened
0:44:16 It is almost this it’s transformation. It’s a true. Oh interesting story is just a change
0:44:21 The world is one way and then it was another way. I was one way and then I was another way
0:44:25 My company was failing and then it’s succeeding. All the story is is just change
0:44:32 You only want to include the what happened so much as it explains how that change came to be
0:44:40 Yeah, it’s not it’s just a timeline of events and then you’re also really queuing into emotion. Yeah
0:44:44 How about that’s what like people respond to you know
0:44:47 Like in my writing course, I used to teach
0:44:53 I used to teach this one thing that I was like, you know, you want to work backwards from the from the emotion
0:44:56 I learned this from a guy who used to be my my
0:45:02 Intern or something like that. I we hired him when he was 20 years old Steve Bartlett today. A lot of people know Steve Bartlett
0:45:08 He’s got a big podcast called diary CEO. He’s built a company. He’s done a bunch of these on Dragonsden
0:45:12 Like he’s a famous guy now. I met Steve when I was 20 or when he was 20
0:45:14 I was 25 maybe and
0:45:17 He flew from the UK. He lived in our office
0:45:21 We slept in our office and he wanted to work with us and we worked together for I don’t know
0:45:23 But nine months or a year or something like that
0:45:25 and
0:45:29 Steve was awesome in a bunch of ways that he was obviously just like a 21 year old in a bunch of other ways
0:45:31 But the awesome thing I remember was he was like
0:45:34 He told me something he goes. I just think about
0:45:39 What is Jenny in her bedroom gonna think when she sees this? I go, who’s Jenny? Who’s Jenny?
0:45:44 What do we we’re talking about? He’s like, oh, like if we’re making a piece of content that’s gonna go on social media
0:45:50 Social media is Jenny in her bed laying down just scrolling just swiping and she’s like basically
0:45:54 This has to make Jenny and Jenny like stop
0:45:58 Think something and share this with her friends. Otherwise, it’s going nowhere
0:46:02 There was no point in writing this thing or doing this thing because it created no
0:46:06 Reaction from the person. They’re just gonna keep swiping the world is full of infinite content
0:46:09 we only stop at things that we have some reaction to and
0:46:15 So I stored that away and then I heard it the same idea from another person
0:46:18 This is how you know a good idea the BuzzFeed guy goes
0:46:24 Everything we do at BuzzFeed is about Debbie at her desk. I’m like Jenny in her bedroom Debbie at her desk
0:46:29 What’s going on here? She goes he goes the most powerful network in the world is the board at work network
0:46:32 He goes all when BuzzFeed was like growing like crazy at the time
0:46:37 He’s like BuzzFeed basically taps into if someone’s bored at work and they just want to like, you know
0:46:39 Have a distraction for five minutes
0:46:44 We want to make a piece of content that will distract them and get them to forward it to a bunch of other people who are also bored at
0:46:48 Work, right and that’s the whole network is the board at work network. All right second time
0:46:50 I heard the idea then I heard the idea third time
0:46:57 Describe Chris Quigley. He ran a advertising agency that would make videos go viral and at the time
0:46:59 I was like going viral is like a lottery ticket like
0:47:02 How do you do a viral video? I don’t know. It’s just like something amazing must happen
0:47:06 So I go, what’s your hit rate on virality like one out of a hundred two out of a hundred
0:47:13 He goes no like eight out of ten. I got eight out of ten and he’s like, yeah, look he showed me their their views
0:47:18 I was like, how do you do this? He’s like well, you know over time the more viral videos you make you have like a base of an audience
0:47:21 But he’s like that just gets you like some people will see it
0:47:26 But how viral it goes is how much they share it. He goes so what we do is we work backwards from an emotion
0:47:28 He goes the only things people will share
0:47:31 It’s things that are lol
0:47:33 Wtf omg
0:47:37 AWW like all the acronyms for all the emotions. So like oh my god
0:47:38 Wow
0:47:42 Like ha ha ha right like if it doesn’t do that nobody will share it
0:47:49 So he goes we first start with this is the desired reaction we have then we’ll write a script or write a write a
0:47:54 Blog post or whatever and then we’ll go check. Do we think that’s gonna create this reaction somebody? No, all right
0:47:57 Plus juice it up. How do we make it more funny? How do we make it more?
0:48:00 Outraging, how do we make it more?
0:48:05 endearing and heartwarming like whatever those are and so once I heard that three times I was like, okay
0:48:06 I get it
0:48:10 I need to create a reaction out of the average person just in the bedroom at the desk
0:48:16 And I need to start with the emotion at my target emotion and then work backwards from that write the thing that will create that emotion
0:48:18 Yeah, it’s funny because
0:48:20 When you write you’re like, okay
0:48:23 I’m publishing this on the internet bunch people are gonna read it
0:48:27 You know get a big audience and so you think of hey, there’s all these people
0:48:32 but actually you’re just writing to Debbie in her bedroom or salad or desk, you know and
0:48:36 people consume your content alone and
0:48:42 When you’re writing you are writing to one person in one place at one moment in time
0:48:48 and you have to remember that because the nature of the connection that you’re trying to make is different and to
0:48:56 double down on that idea in a lot of our media environment, especially with platform like Twitter when you scroll Twitter like you’re on the
0:49:00 throne, you’re on the bus, you’re waiting in line, you’re you know your friends seven minutes late, you’re like
0:49:02 Come on, where are the thick are you? I’m trying to
0:49:09 Reservations coming up and you’re just sort of browsing browsing browsing and your brain’s only like halfway on and if you can really
0:49:14 First understand your own state when you’re in that environment and then write to the person who’s in that state
0:49:20 Now you have a very keen sense of who is this person and you’re writing for one person
0:49:28 Even though if you’re looking you’re saying hey hundred nineteen thousand impressions. Those are not a hundred nineteen thousand people at once like a football game
0:49:33 There are a hundred nineteen thousand individual people at a hundred nineteen thousand individual instances in time
0:49:37 And if you think like that you communicate very differently. Yes
0:49:41 Perfectly said you’re writing to one person at one moment in time
0:49:47 That’s I think a very good point and the other thing that this reminded me of is do you know this person Miss Excel?
0:49:53 Have you seen this person? Yeah. Yeah, so she for anybody who doesn’t know she’s basically like an Excel influencer for lack of a better word
0:49:58 She basically teaches people Excel tricks tricks, but the reason she got popular she went on TikTok
0:50:02 She started dancing while like putting an Excel trick on the screen or a tip on the screen
0:50:08 Weird combo, but it works. I was reading some interview with her and they were like, how do you create your content?
0:50:10 Like what’s what’s your process?
0:50:15 I was like, I’m curious what her process is and she goes. Oh, I don’t she’s like it’s kind of weird. She’s like
0:50:18 Most people if you say what’s the process and they’re like
0:50:24 Consistency like wake up at a certain time start right away. You’re gonna write every day. You’ve got a post at a certain time
0:50:30 You know do all these things. She’s like, I don’t do any of that. She goes. I literally first
0:50:35 Like just changed my own energy. She’s like I work. I she’s like I’m kind of wouldn’t that way
0:50:41 But like I basically get myself into a peak state of mind like I get myself into a certain mood and a certain certain state of mind where I feel
0:50:49 Magnetic, I feel charismatic. I feel it energetic. I feel it’s just like it’s like it and it’s like it’s literally like a science called
0:50:52 Energetics, she’s like I work on my energy and two things happen one
0:50:56 Ideas start coming to me much faster than if I sat down and said what are some ideas?
0:50:58 I need to come post some content today
0:51:00 And so she’s like I just work myself to the state
0:51:04 I’d let ideas come to me an idea will hit and as soon as it hits
0:51:05 She’s like I run to my phone
0:51:10 Hit record and I just do it because I believe all content is just energy transferred through the phone
0:51:12 It’s my energy
0:51:18 Shifting to you my emotion that I have how I feel about this if I feel excited about this insight that I have or excited about this
0:51:21 This tip that I have I want to get you excited about that tip too
0:51:28 And the best way to do that is for me to be there first and I think this is a very underrated thing for writers because most writers
0:51:34 They’re not performers all the performers know this no athlete goes on the field without
0:51:36 Being warmed up and being hiked up
0:51:40 No stage performer goes on stage just kind of cold and low energy
0:51:46 but almost every writer starts cold and low energy and just sits there somewhat miserably and
0:51:53 And there’s even some weird glory from like just like I don’t know this like pain
0:51:56 That’s martyrs ship of like how you need to be as a writer. I think that’s all stupid
0:52:00 I think it’s very similar to performing in any other way
0:52:05 I think you should get yourself in a great state of mind and then have that energy and then sit down and write and let it flow
0:52:10 And let that energy rip through you so that the the other person who reads it is gonna feel the same excitement
0:52:15 You have about the insight or feel the same excitement you have about this plan or whatever it is
0:52:20 You know, you want that to come with it and a lot of times when people write they have this idea
0:52:24 They’re away from the computer like they’re at the bar with their friends or walk with somebody else or Thanksgiving dinner
0:52:30 They’re like man, you know auntie auntie Diana. She has no idea what’s going on in the world
0:52:35 That woman was crazy and you’re so annoyed at like 11 p.m at Thanksgiving and then you try to write like three days later
0:52:41 And the problem is they’re not capturing the energy that miss excel is capturing before she does the videos and
0:52:48 People end up writing in such a sober state that their writing ends up being boring and sterile
0:52:54 100% the thing I said at the beginning of this podcast where it was like I look for things that I think are important that other people
0:53:01 Don’t practice overlook or be too embarrassed to say they’re working on this is an exact example of them of one of those
0:53:06 Nobody wants to work on their like state their energy. They don’t want you know, miss Excel does she’s like
0:53:10 I’m gonna make myself magnetic before I make content. Oh, I like that
0:53:17 I know what that means and that sounds provocative, right? Like, okay, it was better than whatever the hell I’m feeling
0:53:23 When I sit down to write, okay, that’s a new standard for me. I’m gonna do that and so I think most people
0:53:29 Would probably in their heart and believe that this is true that if you kind of got your energy right before you did the thing
0:53:31 It’ll probably turn out better
0:53:37 Nobody’s gonna do it, which is the best part. It’s the arbitrage. It’s not a less talented person like me could do really well
0:53:42 It’s all down here. So now it’s the podcast. So like what is so what should I do next time?
0:53:46 I sit down to write how does this actually work where am I gonna dance do some jumping jacks?
0:53:52 It would actually be exactly that’s exactly right. So state change is three things number one radical change in your physiology
0:53:58 So you could sprint you can do push-ups you can dance you can do 20 air squats
0:54:05 You can dump your face in a cold water whatever it is you will it’s the fastest way to change how you feel is a radical change in your physiology
0:54:07 So first thing
0:54:12 So do that. That’s that’s the very first thing. I have a friend who’s a professional poker player
0:54:15 He does the same thing he goes during poker players are like notoriously degenerates
0:54:19 Like you’re literally sitting there in a casino, which is like the worst air-pumped-in environment
0:54:23 There’s no windows and you’re around other degenerates all day people are smoking. It’s bad
0:54:30 He’s like a monk and he during a tournament in the breaks. He goes in the parking lot and he does wind sprints
0:54:35 He’s not doing it to be a better runner. He’s not doing it to increase his VO2 max
0:54:38 He’s doing it because he wants to make a better decision when he gets back to the table
0:54:40 he knows he makes better decisions when he changes the state and
0:54:49 That’s part of his edges. Why he’s been a European like, you know poker champion and a tour champion, you know several years so
0:54:52 First thing is a change in your your your state
0:54:57 The second thing is a change in your focus. So what do you even focused on?
0:55:02 We’re like, you know the way I imagine is I have this laser beam of focus
0:55:04 I don’t know if this is true, but it’s what I’ve convinced myself
0:55:10 Which is if I just turn my attention to this I will crush this this will be amazing if I if I put a hundred percent of my
0:55:11 Focus on this podcast right now
0:55:16 Oh this podcast didn’t stand a chance and the only limit to me is just where I’m pointing the beam
0:55:19 And if I’m trying to point it in five different places or whatever that’s gonna be a problem
0:55:24 This also works with like if you have to write something and there’s a deadline if your focus is on the deadline
0:55:27 It’s the wrong place to focus right if your focus is on, you know
0:55:32 Your how hard it is for you to do something if you’re focused on how hard it is
0:55:35 It’s not a good place to focus like you need to focus on the thing you want
0:55:39 So, you know, don’t focus on the wall where you’re like trying not to crash like
0:55:44 Turn right there’s a focus on where you’re turning and then the last one is basically your story. So what’s the story?
0:55:45 You tell yourself
0:55:49 We all have some story that we tell ourselves and if you improve the story
0:55:54 You’ll change the state of mind that you have so I go into the store if I go into this podcast right now
0:55:57 And my story is
0:56:00 I’m just I’m doing a favor to David
0:56:04 I’m just doing this. Oh man, like, you know, I had to drive an hour to come here and you know
0:56:08 This means I’m not gonna be able to do this thing and what if that’s the wrong story
0:56:10 Obviously, I’m not gonna perform very well. I’m not gonna be at a peak state
0:56:17 Whereas if my story was there is gonna be someone who was just one person one person who’s listening to this podcast and
0:56:22 They’re gonna hear one thing that I say one story and they’re gonna be like wow I
0:56:28 Can’t unhear that that was amazing and that person’s gonna go on do amazing things that they’re gonna write me a letter one day
0:56:31 It’d be like dude that podcast you did change my life
0:56:33 I’m gonna purchase podcast differently, right?
0:56:37 I the different words will come out of my mouth if my story about what’s happening is different
0:56:39 So similarly if you want to basically change your state
0:56:43 Physiology first focus second story third nice
0:56:46 one of the
0:56:49 Moments I had around story that I thought was
0:56:56 Really revealing was I work with the coach and we were talking about my writing and I was in a slump. I was down and
0:57:00 What’s a writing slump? What does that mean?
0:57:06 I wasn’t I even I wasn’t feeling it and I just wasn’t proud of the stuff that I was doing and
0:57:08 I
0:57:10 can get inspired and
0:57:17 He said well, what is it that you want and I said well, you know, hey
0:57:23 I used to write these these pieces these long-form pieces that I was really proud of you know what I want
0:57:31 I want to be a creative force. I want to be a creative force. That’s what I’m going for and I sit down to write
0:57:35 I’m like I want to be a creative force. That’s what I’m all about and he’s like hold on hold on hold on
0:57:37 Stop stop the train
0:57:40 You said you used to be a good writer and
0:57:42 You would
0:57:44 Get in a great flow
0:57:47 What did you do back then that you don’t do now? I was like
0:57:50 rock
0:57:54 That’s just pretty simple I
0:57:56 find an idea
0:57:58 That was interesting. I
0:58:04 Would try to figure out that idea for myself and then I’d figure out for myself
0:58:08 I’d say well then I got to share this with other people and I just do that over and over and over again and
0:58:13 I never stopped. That’s all I did and that’s all I focused on. He’s like hold on
0:58:19 Well, you’re saying is now you’re focused on being a creative force. That’s your story. That’s not working for you
0:58:21 let’s get back to
0:58:24 finding an interesting idea not judging the interestingness
0:58:28 Figuring it out for yourself and then sharing it with others
0:58:30 Ever since that no more slop right
0:58:35 All that was was a change in my story. Yes, amazing. That’s amazing
0:58:42 And I think you know the other part of what you said there, which is letting curiosity be the the guide the driver
0:58:51 Sounds very simple, but all great ideas are actually quite simple. It’s just the beauty of them, you know, there’s a I think there’s a profound
0:58:55 benefit of
0:59:02 Revisiting simple ideas and then saying am I doing those I don’t look for new ideas as much as I look for ideas
0:59:06 I’ve already heard that I haven’t fully actualized yet. And you know, that’s one
0:59:08 You’ve read like Paul Graham with this essay
0:59:14 Great work, I assume you’ve read that one. Yeah, I recently I read it two nights ago
0:59:19 So good for the first time he wrote it like a year ago and it was like 13,000 words
0:59:22 Sounds like I’m not doing I guess too long
0:59:28 Well, when the student is ready the teacher appears. So I’m ready to I’m thinking about what I want to work on right now
0:59:32 I don’t want to do this and I went back to that and in that he has his great line
0:59:35 He goes if I had to boil down all great work into one one word
0:59:41 It would be curiosity and he says another thing which is curiosity drives in a level of excitement. It goes on excitement
0:59:46 Excitement is really a great indicator. He goes excitement is the engine and the rudder of the boat
0:59:49 It’s the engine in that excitement is motivating
0:59:52 It’s a driver to get you to go do things, but it’s also the rudder
0:59:57 It also can point you in the right direction if you don’t know which path to choose just choose the one
1:00:01 That’s most exciting just go keep following that and that will lead you to the right place
1:00:03 It’s excitement is the engine and the rudder
1:00:09 I think is a really powerful idea and every time I’ve drifted away from that like you did like I
1:00:12 Start with that good things happen and then I’m like ooh now
1:00:15 ambition is the driver or
1:00:21 Doing something that sounds cool or important or money is the driver and then like all the bad things happen
1:00:27 Why aren’t these working? It’s like well cuz you stopped doing the working formula which was leading to all these great things
1:00:30 Because you thought you needed to like
1:00:36 You know you thought you needed to do something different and I so many people are like I hate writing and most of the time
1:00:40 it’s that they associate writing with doing things that they don’t want to do and
1:00:43 Then when they think about well, it’s time to write they
1:00:47 consciously
1:00:53 Don’t allow them to write about the thing that they’re the most curious about or excited to write about because in school
1:00:57 That’s not what you get to do. Yeah, no one’s excited about the average school paper
1:01:02 Maybe one or two things, but people just aren’t trained to think like that one of the things that I
1:01:10 Need to reconcile with you and try to sort of figure out because that to Sean ideas and we need to figure out how they sort of come together is
1:01:15 This line that you have if you’re in your head, you’re dead
1:01:20 Love that line so good at the same time. You are always
1:01:26 Deconstructing things you have you find something that you like and you’re like hold on what’s going on here?
1:01:30 Let me try to break it down. Okay. I’m actually gonna go check out this book go talk to this expert try to figure out
1:01:33 What’s going on? So how is it that you are?
1:01:40 Deconstructing thinking being fairly analytical, but at the same time not getting in your head those things feel like polar opposites to me
1:01:47 Yeah, two things one. I read something yesterday. This is like mini book online that was called
1:01:50 Things called like a technique for
1:01:54 Technique for coming up with new ideas. It’s some old book
1:01:56 and
1:02:01 In it it said this thing he goes the the most valuable
1:02:07 Traits you can have sound like opposites when you know prepare them together. So you guys, you know
1:02:11 Imagine an entrepreneur who is both visionary and detail-oriented
1:02:17 That’s a that’s a Steve Jobs, for example, like Steve Jobs is famous for being a visionary
1:02:22 He he doesn’t ask the consumer what they want. They just want faster horses. He you know, they want a car actually, right?
1:02:25 That’s how he admits, you know, the iPhone and it figures out what to do
1:02:30 But he’s insanely detail-oriented where he’s like, what is the inside of the box look like and they’re like, dude, Steve
1:02:32 Nobody’s gonna look at this. He’s like, I’m gonna look at this
1:02:37 I will know what’s inside the box. It needs to be beautiful at that level of detail pixel level detail
1:02:38 Um
1:02:44 Same thing for all things, right? I consider myself a creative person. I’m also highly analytical with data
1:02:47 Sounds like opposites
1:02:52 And so there are many things where the exact opposite if paired together
1:02:57 creates a like one plus one equals three type of reaction and
1:03:03 They’re often presented as false choices. You’re either this type of person or you’re this type of person screw that
1:03:09 Be the type of person you want which sometimes means having both gears and knowing when to go into which gear when do I need to be?
1:03:15 Creative when do I need to be analytical? When do I need to be hard-charging entrepreneur when I need to be silly playful dad?
1:03:21 You know paint my nails right ever, right? Like I have to have these gears to have the life. I want similarly
1:03:25 You want to be in your head at the times it makes sense to be in your head
1:03:31 The brain is a valuable tool. It just cannot be the master. So the you know, I need to be in my head when it’s about
1:03:33 Maybe it’s
1:03:35 Analysis, maybe it’s oh
1:03:41 I’m feeling fear. I need to actually use logic and I say myself is this fear even true and what’s the probability of that?
1:03:46 And if that happened, how would I handle it? I guess I would just do this and I guess it’s not so scary after all
1:03:48 so usually
1:03:54 If the problem is emotion, you can solve it with emotion if the problem is logic you can solve with logic and so I
1:03:57 Try to use them at the right times
1:04:02 The if you’re in or had you’re dead is basically a it’s more of a life philosophy than it is a work philosophy
1:04:04 Which is people who kind of go around life
1:04:09 Not feeling a whole lot and not being present in the moment. They’re in their head about stuff
1:04:16 They’re missing life and that’s that’s a problem, you know more so than than a writing tactic
1:04:21 Have you ever seen that advice from Ray Bradbury where he says don’t think you ever seen this?
1:04:28 So I heard that what you said here and it immediately reminded me he says I have a sign and my typewriter
1:04:32 It says don’t think and I’m like, okay, that’s interesting
1:04:37 He’s like I’m trying to surprise myself at the keyboard and the only way to surprise myself is
1:04:38 Once I’m in my head
1:04:42 I can’t do that and I think that a lot of writing a first draft is like this
1:04:47 You’re you’re trying to get outside of that part of your brain that judges that condemns that says no
1:04:52 No, it’s not good enough and just put stuff onto the page and you know that you’re doing it
1:04:55 Well when what you’re doing is like whoa, where did that come from? Where did that come from?
1:05:00 Where did that come from and then the question is how do you engineer yourself to do that like for me?
1:05:07 If I’m sitting and typing can’t do it like my ideas that for me is where I do editing the thing that was game changing for me
1:05:13 was voice transcription getting really good because now I can stand and talk talk and walk inside walk and talk just
1:05:18 Blab blab blab blab blab half of Austin definitely thinks I’m some sort of like crazy psychopath kind of guy
1:05:22 But you know what it’s made my writing better and a bunch of people I work with they’re like
1:05:29 How do you just bang out first draft so fast? I’m like cuz I don’t sit and type like everybody else does I just go for a walk
1:05:34 Yeah, I think that’s a that’s a great point. I think you need to figure out a way to engineer that for yourself
1:05:36 So you can consistently have it
1:05:41 I think everybody’s got a different version of of how to do it what you said reminded me of something though you go
1:05:44 You’re talking about right back. Don’t think I
1:05:49 Think this is a a very useful troubleshooting tool
1:05:55 So when you’re stuck many ways to get unstuck and one way to get unstuck like I said
1:06:00 Radical change and something physical you do. I mean, that’s a good tactic music is a good way to get unstuck too
1:06:08 But in general a philosophy for how to get unstuck is you’re if you’re stuck in the specifics go general
1:06:12 Meaning if you’re stuck in the logistics of the how something is going to happen
1:06:17 It’s not quite adding up what you’ve got to do is not just keep trying to do this
1:06:23 You can just zoom right out go super general all right super general what am I trying to do here? I’m trying to do this super general
1:06:27 If I had all the superpowers in the world, how would I do this right super general is just like
1:06:33 You know who’s somebody who’s done this before or super general, okay?
1:06:35 I don’t know exactly what type of thing. I want to write what inspires me, right?
1:06:38 The way to get out of these sometimes is to go general to go
1:06:42 And so even if like don’t think is hard because very hard to turn off the brain
1:06:49 But it’s not so hard to redirect the brain and so redirecting it. I think is a useful tool you can redirect it towards
1:06:55 I’m gonna go rock climb I’ll go exercise. I’ll take my brain off of it. It can also be I’m stuck in the muck here
1:06:58 And I need to just zoom out and that’s it or if I’m stuck in the general
1:07:01 So for example, sometimes I’m stuck in the general like what do I want to be in life?
1:07:05 I’m like, you know what I want to do and who am I and all the stuff
1:07:09 I’m specific. What’s them like what’s the best idea you heard in the last two days?
1:07:13 Well, like if you were gonna write about that, what would it be or like what’s the most interesting phone call?
1:07:15 I’ve had
1:07:18 You know, then you go specific because you’re stuck in the general
1:07:20 So it’s a very useful thing to do is just like to get unstuck
1:07:26 No, if you’re stuck in the specifics go general if you’re stuck in the general go specific and you’ll redirect the brain I
1:07:31 Want to switch over to talk about voice. You’re really good at
1:07:36 Putting your voice onto the page and you do something very
1:07:39 Specific that I’m not
1:07:43 Sure, how consciously you do this but you’re so good at getting inside
1:07:47 The head of a reader to understand all right
1:07:52 How are they feeling about this at the moment and but basically you said earlier breaking the fourth wall and then by doing that
1:07:58 Building trust and connection and then it creates this friendly casualness as if we’re having a conversation that
1:08:02 My goodness that is levels away from most
1:08:04 From what most writers are able to do
1:08:06 Have you ever read the boron letters?
1:08:14 Years ago. Okay, so this is must read. Yeah, copywriting copywriting. I’m surprised you don’t have them like print it out of your pocket
1:08:18 Yeah, that good. So the boron letters are this amazing thing by this
1:08:21 Like kind of renowned copywriter
1:08:25 Gary Halpert I think writing to his son and
1:08:29 He’s in jail. So the writer is now in jail is writing to his son
1:08:36 Bond I think this is a name and so it’s like a series of 23 letters and I
1:08:40 Put they’re hard to find – it’s really annoying. They’re hard if there’s like one blog
1:08:42 So I put it I hosted them on my blog now
1:08:48 Because I was like this is this crazy that he’s so valuable and so hard to find so anyways
1:08:54 He posted the he wrote these letters and he just wrote it again to one person. He’s like I’m writing to my son, but obviously
1:08:57 these were kind of like
1:09:02 General principles of life and copywriting and marketing and he’s teaching he’s trying to teach him everything he knows
1:09:08 But the but because of the way he wrote it with such a casual like like warm relationship
1:09:10 Like he’s not even just writing to one person. He’s writing to his son
1:09:16 Because he’s ready to his son. He’s like and this dear bond is where things get interesting or he’s like you’re probably wondering
1:09:19 Dad, why do you say this? We’re gonna get to that
1:09:24 But first a little detour and he just started writing so differently that I was like, oh, I like this style
1:09:28 This is just like has a swag to it. That is just like appealing to me
1:09:33 So I started stealing that basically I was like, oh, I’m gonna write like that
1:09:38 I’m gonna write like I’m writing to one person and that one person is like my little young grasshopper
1:09:45 It’s like this is my kid or it’s my my little cousin or it’s me when I was younger. It’s like I know what you’re thinking
1:09:48 But mama Mia, you’re wrong right now
1:09:54 Just like try to like try to just make it fun and interesting as if it’s written to one one one person that I was like a warm relationship
1:10:01 Somebody that’s kind of like I want to be the sensei and they that’s how I write in those where it’s like a master-teacher relationship and other times
1:10:03 It’s the opposite. It’s um
1:10:10 I’m the beginner and I know that other people are more more knowledgeable about this and I’ll be like and I just will be open about that
1:10:16 I’ll be like so being the idiot that I am I’m gonna I decided I was gonna do these three things
1:10:20 I knew there’s probably a better way to do this. You probably know four four better ways yourself
1:10:24 You’re probably staring at us right now wondering how can this guy be so dumb?
1:10:26 Well, the answer is blah blah blah, right?
1:10:31 And I’ll try to say it like that because I’m just trying to make it where I’m trying to imagine
1:10:32 What is the reader thinking at this?
1:10:38 Well, what I think if I was them and then I try to address that in the moment because it’s very frustrating to me when I
1:10:43 Imagine if you ask somebody this question you’re like, how did you do it?
1:10:47 And they’re like I just did this and you’re listening to a podcast and then that podcast host
1:10:52 Doesn’t ask them like wait wait wait. What do you mean? It just worked like how or what do you mean?
1:10:54 He gave you a million dollars. Why did he give you a million dollars, right?
1:10:58 Like it’s the most frustrating experience in the world when that doesn’t get addressed
1:11:02 So in writing I try to do that too like I try to just call out the thing
1:11:07 I would be wondering about or I would be skeptical of or I would be excited about in that moment
1:11:09 I just try to include it in the dialogue
1:11:15 One of the things that we talked about all the time and read a passage when my core principles is imitate then innovate
1:11:19 And it’s exactly what you did there. So I asked you a question and you said, okay
1:11:24 Have you ever heard of this thing? Well, Gary Halbert does this very well
1:11:31 And then what you did was you deconstructed exactly how he does it and then you said you found a general principle of his work
1:11:38 So you said he’s not just writing for one person. He’s writing to his son and then the implications of that are this this this and this and
1:11:41 the
1:11:44 Roadmap that you took to give me that answer
1:11:50 I think is very revealing of how you think about writing where you start somewhere you deconstruct and then you say
1:11:53 how does that show up in my own world and then you try to
1:11:59 Build up a generalizable principle that then you can use for your toolkit whenever you’re typing yourself. Yes, that’s exactly right
1:12:05 I think that is a great thing for anybody to try to do if you want to get better at something. That’s that’s the way
1:12:10 Yeah, by the way, I randomly just thought of the best example of framing from way earlier
1:12:16 While you were talking which is kind of how the brain works the brain relaxes and then something comes to it
1:12:22 Have you seen the Dave Chappelle thing called Unforgiven? Have you seen this on YouTube? No, all right
1:12:30 So do you remember a while back Dave Chappelle was in a feud with I think it was Netflix and he was like
1:12:36 The Chappelle show was put on Netflix and he wasn’t getting any royalties so like it’s his name. It’s his face
1:12:39 It’s all his life’s work and not only was he not getting paid for it
1:12:44 He had had a big falling out with the creators of the Chappelle show where like he ended up quitting
1:12:48 Right when they the story what the time was they offered him $50 million. He said no
1:12:54 And he went to Africa and a big up a crackhead and said that was like the rumors like Dave Chappelle is a crackhead now
1:12:58 He’s in Africa and it was like and he later. He was like, no, I just said no
1:13:02 Why did I have to be a crackhead in Africa? I went home like what are you talking about?
1:13:04 so anyways
1:13:08 Here’s the objective his objective was he wanted people to boycott the show
1:13:13 How do you get people to boycott the show? You got it if you want to drive people to take action
1:13:15 You got to be smart with how you’re gonna
1:13:18 Like how are you gonna persuade them through the written word or in his case?
1:13:20 He wrote it first and then he performed it on stage and
1:13:26 What he did was instead of talking about Netflix or talking about his show or saying go boycott my show, please
1:13:29 He started
1:13:36 He reframed the problem in a totally different way that I thought was brilliant. He just changed the frame completely
1:13:38 So he tells the story. He goes
1:13:42 I remember I was 14 years old the first time I did ever did comedy. I was 14 years old
1:13:47 I go to this comedy club and I tell this joke and he’s like, I’m not as yeah, I’m gonna admit it
1:13:50 I was good right away comedy came naturally to me
1:13:53 I’m not one of those people who’s like it took me a decade. He’s like honestly
1:13:56 I was good and I was 14 15 or 15 years old
1:14:00 I think he’s like I was underage, but I was good and he’s like I came backstage
1:14:03 There’s a guy who’s been doing this for 20 years and they were like a kid you did pretty good man
1:14:08 That’s that was good. I was like one guy came there was I came in I like that joke. I
1:14:12 Had this big audition coming up for this TV show or something like for this other thing
1:14:15 You mind if I use that joke
1:14:20 He’s like even as a kid I’m 15 this guy’s, you know, bigger older. I looked up to this guy
1:14:25 He’s like I didn’t want to do it. So I was like my jokes all I got I got no money
1:14:31 All I have is a comedian. This is my jokes. He’s like, but he was kind of asking I felt uncomfortable
1:14:36 He said he just needed it for this audition. So I was like, alright, man, like sure you can use the joke for that dish
1:14:43 Guys like alright, cool. He’s like several months later. I go to the club. I’m about to perform that guy’s before me
1:14:47 He tells my joke and the joke kills. He’s like I was pissed
1:14:52 He’s like I didn’t know what to do. He’s like afterwards. I went up to the guy again. I’m a 15 year old kid
1:14:58 I’m like he basically is framing it as I’m this powerless kid and this guy’s taking advantage of me. He goes I
1:15:01 Told him was a hey man. You said you were just gonna use it for that thing
1:15:03 I I don’t want that. I want my joke back and
1:15:07 I think maybe you had to give him a hundred bucks or something like that and
1:15:14 And the guy’s like the guy kind of roughed him up. He grabbed him and he was like I was just asking to be nice
1:15:19 You know, I could just take it he’s like I was scared. I didn’t know what to do
1:15:24 Let that guy take my joke. Okay, so that’s so he’s gonna tell you another story
1:15:27 He tells a story about later on. He’s in New York and
1:15:32 He’s uh, he’s like I got a date with this Jamaican girl. He’s like fine girl. Yeah, banging on you
1:15:36 I couldn’t wait to go on this date. I didn’t have any money. I’m still a struggling comedian
1:15:39 But now I’m older I’m 22 24 or something like that
1:15:44 He’s like and I walk around New York and I see these guys doing like that three-card money where they like, you know
1:15:46 that game and
1:15:50 I’m watching it and a guy puts down a hundred bucks moves the thing around. I know it’s over here
1:15:55 He guesses the wrong one. He loses. He shows it’s over there. Next thing I go same thing puts down 20 bucks
1:16:00 I know it’s over there. He picks over here. He loses. Oh my god. I could do this
1:16:07 So I step up I put all hundred bucks down. It’s there. I’m gonna double this that I’ll take them take my girl out tonight. I
1:16:13 Know the balls over here. I say that one balls over there. He’s like what the hell just happened
1:16:16 He’s like I was pissed. I lost a hundred bucks. I had this date tonight
1:16:21 He’s like so I stuck around and I watched and I realized those tourists they didn’t leave
1:16:27 They were still here and they did it again. He’s like, oh, they hustled me like those guys are in on it together
1:16:31 They pretended not to know where it was and I was the mark who came up and said oh
1:16:36 I figured this out and they got me and then somebody else came up and they were about to make the same mistake
1:16:38 And I told him don’t do it. They’re all in on it and
1:16:46 The guy goes. Oh, okay. He leaves. He’s like the guy rubs him up again and he goes. Hey, man
1:16:52 He goes, I don’t care what you think. He’s like never you get between a man and his next meal
1:16:54 He’s like you just took money out of my pocket
1:16:59 This is my job. This is my livelihood and taking away a man’s livelihood is the equivalent of killing him
1:17:01 Well, he tells him that okay cool
1:17:07 Then he finally gets to the Netflix story and he basically weaves together those parts from before he’s like
1:17:10 They didn’t ask me if they could put it on Netflix
1:17:13 They didn’t ask me to do the basic like they didn’t ask right
1:17:17 They just took my name took my face took all my content. They just took it
1:17:21 He’s like and then the second thing was he’s the people would say well you signed the contract Dave
1:17:26 He’s like I was a 21 year old kid. I hired lawyers to read these contracts
1:17:33 They told me everything. I said, hey, you can use this forever in perpetuity in all parts of the universe and they’re like, it’s standard Dave
1:17:36 Don’t worry about it. This is standard Hollywood stuff. Don’t don’t worry about it
1:17:42 So he’s like so I signed it later on to realize those guys all go out to dinner every week the lawyers on my side their side
1:17:47 They’re all in on it. This is just like the three-card money. That’s all I was the mark
1:17:51 So yeah, I signed it but whatever and he got the whole audience on his side
1:17:55 By like making this argument by using these two stories
1:17:57 I think it is the most brilliant like
1:18:03 Example of PR or like a written story that I have ever seen the way by the end of that thing
1:18:07 You’re like, I will delete Netflix if they don’t take the show off and it’s exactly what happened
1:18:12 People saw that that video on YouTube. It went super viral because it was so well done
1:18:16 People boycotted Netflix they took it off and
1:18:21 Netflix said we don’t have to do this day, but we voluntarily will do this like we were also moved by your story
1:18:26 We’re not gonna put put spells up there unless you say we can do it even though contraction
1:18:30 We have the rights to do whatever we want. We’re gonna honor the non-contract here
1:18:38 I thought that was the power of like, you know reframing not like oh, I’m getting screwed. I want money to like a more universal
1:18:41 You know, you’re getting picked on by the man
1:18:45 You’re getting screwed by people who are all in on it and I thought that was absolutely brilliant. That’s yes
1:18:47 You should go watch this thing. It’s amazing. Yeah
1:18:55 So here’s the deal I made most of my money from a newsletter business
1:19:01 It was called the hustle and it’s a daily newsletter at scale to millions of subscribers and it was the greatest business on earth
1:19:08 The problem with it was that I had close to 40 employees and only three of them were actually doing any writing
1:19:13 The other employees were growing the newsletter building out the tech for the platform and selling ads and honestly
1:19:18 It was a huge pain in the butt today’s episode is brought to you by beehive
1:19:23 They are a platform that is built exactly for this if you want to grow your newsletter
1:19:28 If you want to monetize the newsletter, they do all of the stuff that I had to hire dozens of employees to do
1:19:34 So check it out beehive.com. That’s B-E-E-H-I-I-V.com
1:19:37 I
1:19:39 Want to talk about
1:19:40 distribution
1:19:46 so one of the things that we’re working on at Red Passage is what I want to figure out is I want to figure out how to take
1:19:52 Anybody people who don’t write all the time don’t really have an audience. They’ve just published something really good like say that you are
1:19:59 an absolute expert in like the distribution of San Pellegrino waters from like the little town in Italy how they
1:20:03 Where they package it, you know, what’s the story of the label all that sort of stuff
1:20:10 And you are like this is how the sparkling water boom came and I’m gonna tell the story of how it begins in a little town in Italy
1:20:18 With San Pellegrino one, okay? You have this expert. He she never written online. They write something. It’s awesome
1:20:20 And I want to help them distribute it
1:20:25 They come to me they say, what do I do? How should I talk them through that? I
1:20:32 Think distribution is built over time. I don’t think that’s something you can do from day one, right? Like
1:20:38 It’s kind of back to that hundred videos thing from earlier if you’re going to
1:20:40 write online
1:20:42 there is sort of a
1:20:48 Beachhead moment you have to create you have to create a trusted audience over time and you have to know that the
1:20:52 Distribution is earned. That’s why distributions are valuable because hard to replicate. So for example
1:20:58 My buddy Jason used to say this thing he goes. Oh, I have the one two three rule of interesting this
1:21:04 What does that mean? He goes tell me what one thing that’s interesting, right? You tell me one thing that’s interesting about San Pellegrino
1:21:06 I’ll say that’s interesting
1:21:10 Tell me two things that’s interesting. I’m like those were interesting. That’s two interesting things
1:21:15 You tell me three interesting things. I’ll say you’re interesting soon and this is just like a general philosophy
1:21:21 I think you should have with writing. It’s like you don’t deserve that like trusted follow or relationship
1:21:27 I tell you and three is a small number really on the internet might be like 20 things like you might have to tell
1:21:32 Somebody 20 interesting things before they’re like this guy is interesting. I can’t wait to get his next one and
1:21:37 You just have to build that up like you have to build you have to consistently be telling somebody something interesting
1:21:41 Multiple times
1:21:47 For you to earn that that you know channel between them where they are now gonna be receiving your content or they’ll be willing to vouch for you
1:21:51 And spread you to another person not just on the merits of the one thing
1:21:57 But because you are interesting and you consistently share interesting things and then when groups of people think you’re interesting
1:22:02 It’s even more powerful, right? Because then another person comes in and just says, oh, everybody thinks this guy’s interesting
1:22:09 Cool, I’ll follow right like which is why the more Twitter followers you get the more you’re gonna get right and it’s actually not a bug
1:22:11 People get mad about that like the rich get richer
1:22:12 It’s not a bad thing
1:22:20 It’s actually a useful mental shortcut the people who have earned a following are probably likely worth following with some exceptions
1:22:25 But it is a useful hack versus I have to individually vet every account to figure out who I want to follow
1:22:30 That’s the slow way like I’m going to follow the people that other people follow that is
1:22:34 It sounds just like oh, you’re just being a latest part of the herd mentality or group think or whatever
1:22:39 But there’s a reason it exists. There’s like a evolutionary advantage to doing it, too
1:22:44 Which is it saves you a lot of time of adding to individually vet every person. So I would say to that person who wants that distribution
1:22:51 It’s cool. That’s one interesting thing. Let’s do 20 and you know, start with your friends start with your friends and family
1:22:56 Start with some group chats start with some, you know, maybe you have to push the wheel a little bit
1:23:01 You know send it to some people who might find that interesting that you know of with a personalized message of why you think they might find
1:23:06 That interesting. Yeah, you’re gonna have to do some of that hustle at the beginning to get to get the word out
1:23:08 but you should also not like
1:23:12 Have some expectations that just because you said one interesting thing it
1:23:17 It deserves to be, you know, spread everywhere. That’s not really how it works, right on
1:23:24 Twitter itself you have built a huge audience without writing that many things and you’ve had a few things that are just
1:23:30 Absolutely crank. What do you think that you understand about that platform and communicating there that other people are missing?
1:23:36 Well, I’ll say this I think
1:23:42 It what I did worked on Twitter. So basically I remember I was at 20,000 followers
1:23:48 Which is a lot in general, but I was like, I’m gonna get to 100 now about 400. So I like oh, I way overshot that goal
1:23:55 400,000 followers, but it most I’d say the generic best practices be consistent and
1:23:59 Define what your niche is and then talk about stuff in that niche. I
1:24:04 Don’t really do that. So I would say I defy that but I don’t think that’s what helped
1:24:09 I think I almost won in spite of doing that. I think if I had been more consistent and I had to find my niche
1:24:15 I would be at a million followers instead of 400,000. So let me put that out there even though. I didn’t follow the best practices
1:24:17 I don’t think the right takeaway is
1:24:23 Those are the wrong. I think the right takeaway is it would have been even bigger had I followed those the one thing
1:24:25 I did get right was I
1:24:29 Knew when everybody’s attention was on a certain subject. I had an interesting take
1:24:36 It’s not my writing so much as it is the thinking like I’m sure I haven’t listed all your interviews
1:24:40 But I am sure one of the most common themes is that great writing is just great thinking
1:24:43 Clear writing is just clear thinking
1:24:47 Writing helps you think better and thinking better thinking helps you write better. They’re so tightly intertwined
1:24:55 That the unhelpful but true advice is I think I had an interesting thought to say and I said it at the right time
1:25:02 When people were paying attention to that subject and then thirdly, I wrote it in an interesting way that helped the spread of it
1:25:03 I
1:25:06 wrote some thread about the metaverse that went super viral and
1:25:11 I don’t think it’s because of how I wrote it. I think it’s because the thought in it was genuinely a good thought
1:25:15 like I remember at the time Facebook had just rebranded to meta and
1:25:19 Zuck went on Lil X freedman podcast. I was like, yeah, I read this really interesting thing on Twitter
1:25:24 Well, it’s like he wasn’t saying it because my prose was great or my grammar was great or my hook was great
1:25:28 He read it because he thought the core idea underlying idea was unique and interesting
1:25:36 And I think that’s more what to strive for is like you’re building up these two skill sets having unique and interesting things to say
1:25:40 Being good at packaging ideas two distinct skill sets
1:25:45 You can’t do only one and not the other or it’ll reveal itself to be pretty sharp
1:25:48 If you just have interesting things to say and crappy packaging, you don’t get very far
1:25:53 If you have great packaging but mundane things to say people get very fatigued of it. It doesn’t really work one of the
1:25:59 ways that I like to judge a writer is like if I like as a measure when I read their stuff is like
1:26:07 How good is this person at building a connection with their readers? So some writers like let’s take chat GPT
1:26:11 The chat GPT is like a zero, right? It can be super informative, right?
1:26:17 It’s you learn a lot, but you’re not actually building any sort of emotional connection same thing with Wikipedia, right?
1:26:23 And then there’s other people like you. I think this is something that you’re very intentional about and
1:26:25 I think that for
1:26:29 The average word that you have there is like a real
1:26:35 Connection that is built. I think that you’re really focused on that because of your goals as a creator
1:26:41 And how do you go about doing that writing so that it’s not going to be just this one and done
1:26:43 But so there’s actually gonna be like a glue of like shot
1:26:48 Like I like this guy want to consume his stuff and actually I want to consume his stuff every single day
1:26:55 When you say connection, do what do you mean by that? You mean trust do you mean like ability? What do you mean?
1:27:04 I think what I mean is an indispensability from that creator. So I did the lamest thing ever once I hired a consultant
1:27:07 Who was an expert at personal branding?
1:27:18 That feels like almost feels like you’re not even being serious
1:27:20 The lamest thing ever. I’m aware how lame it was
1:27:24 And it’s not like I was like, oh, I want to change my image or whatever
1:27:30 But I was like well truth be told if I am a creator that means I am kind of an individual brand
1:27:35 Okay, so what and this person worked with all these people so I was like, alright, let’s do this
1:27:40 It goes back to the theme of what is something that a super point that people something that’s valuable
1:27:46 That other people either overlook or actually would be embarrassed to do totally and your boys not embarrassed
1:27:48 so I’ll do it right so I hire this guy and
1:27:51 I
1:27:53 Sit down and we talk and I’m like, okay
1:27:56 I learned a bunch of things from them one of the things you taught me let’s you guys
1:28:00 people will follow you to the ends of the earth if
1:28:03 You are giving them a feeling
1:28:07 That they can’t get anywhere else more consistently than anybody else is gonna give it to them
1:28:15 So what does that mean he basically was like think of yourself as a little Shopify store and your only skew your little you’re a merchant
1:28:21 Got him. You’re your merchant. You’re your only skew is basically one
1:28:24 How somebody feels after they consume your content. So for example
1:28:27 I
1:28:29 Used to love Ted Ted back in the Ted talks. I remember
1:28:34 So good to make fun of them or whatever 2014
1:28:37 the shit and
1:28:40 Or even before I was in college with it. They were cool. So
1:28:48 Why do I like a Ted talk even the sound the music of the the whoosh out of a Ted talk or the intro sought the sound
1:28:51 and the way that it looked it was like this like
1:28:57 Training like Pablo Pavlovian training of like you’re gonna hear one really cool idea in
1:29:05 18 minutes and you’re gonna walk away feeling inspired now inspired about the world in some way inspired either go do something inspired that the world is
1:29:08 improving in some way inspired to make a change whatever and
1:29:13 Ted is a merchant of inspiration. And so I
1:29:15 Thought about that. I was like, oh, yeah, that’s right
1:29:17 I I listen to these comedy podcasts
1:29:22 Why because I get this feeling that I’m hanging out with my like my friends my funny friends
1:29:24 But like they’re not my friends. They’re just comedians that hang out
1:29:31 But that’s why I think comedy podcasts are so popular because they can consistently give somebody the feeling of camaraderie
1:29:37 Bullshit with your boys without you ever having to like actually be funny have funny friends and go hang out, right?
1:29:41 and so like you’re getting that without the cost amazing and
1:29:48 So anyways, but this is why like, you know, we got acquired by twitch people watch twitch people watch other people play video games
1:29:53 Because you get the feeling of playing a video game without having to actually sit down and buy a system by the game
1:29:59 Get good at the game and play the game you get the same rush watching this guy try to win just by watching. It’s it’s kind of amazing
1:30:01 so
1:30:04 Once I realized that I was like, oh, okay. This guy’s right
1:30:08 You know, what I got to do is pick what feeling I want people to have
1:30:12 And then I got to deliver all I got to focus on is delivering that to them more consistently than anybody else
1:30:13 going to give it to them
1:30:15 if I do that
1:30:16 all my
1:30:18 Personal brain dreams will come true
1:30:21 Um, you know, so that was the the big takeaway. That was the lesson I had there
1:30:27 So when you say it seems like you’re intentional about it. That’s what it that’s the underlying thing that it is is
1:30:32 Picking up front. What am I trying to deliver? What’s the what’s that feeling and they consistently be like, all right?
1:30:36 How could I do that? What’s a story I could tell? What’s a framework? I could give them what’s a
1:30:39 No, good. I could give them that would that would do that for them
1:30:43 It seems like I want to talk about editing and it seems like
1:30:50 Your thing is that you’re really good at writing for straps and actually you’re not like a you don’t seem like somebody who’s
1:30:54 Like an eighth revision. I’m gonna put this away for you know, six years kind of guy with editing
1:30:59 You seem like you’re pretty off the cuff. You’re sort of like miss excel. What does they want to have the emotion?
1:31:03 I want to have I would guess then you sit down you write it then you go away for a few hours
1:31:07 You know, maybe we’re going to walk come back look at it ship it off, right? So for you
1:31:09 Let’s
1:31:15 Bring together emotion editing. How do you edit for the sort of emotion that you’re talking about there?
1:31:21 Um, okay. First thing I learned was from sam par. He has his principal. I think he came on your show too
1:31:26 Which is the walk away. Uh, so you first you do the shitty draft you dump it
1:31:29 and
1:31:31 I kind of knew editing was important
1:31:36 And the mistake I used to make is I’d edit right away. That’s a terrible idea. Don’t do that
1:31:38 So you first do your research and your thinking
1:31:42 You dump your you do a quick brain dump and you got to walk away
1:31:46 So you you read it. Well, the last thing I do I read what I wrote
1:31:51 And then I’m gonna like forget about it. So I then we’ll go do stuff. So I will go work out
1:31:56 I’ll go play with my kids. I’ll go for a walk and I’m not trying to think about it at all
1:32:01 I know I’ll come back to that later and I know it sucks today. I’m gonna go. I’m gonna edit it later and make it great
1:32:02 I’m certain of that
1:32:08 But I don’t consciously think about it and then I come back to it usually let’s say four hours six hours eight hours 24 hours later
1:32:13 And I’ll read the thing and immediately I’ll be like, oh this bad bad change this
1:32:19 Oh, I don’t I talk about this instead or I wanted it to have this take away. I don’t think it has that right now
1:32:21 All right, where would I punch that up?
1:32:26 Like I wouldn’t have wrote this if I didn’t think it had the potential to give you that because I was very intentional up front
1:32:28 Thinking this will do it. It’s not coming through
1:32:35 where uh, and the the analogy I’ll use is like imagine our rivers flowing so, um, there’s a useful analogy because
1:32:41 I think a lot of people are like there’s nothing there and I’m gonna make it happen another
1:32:45 Story you could tell yourself is it’s a river the water wants to flow
1:32:51 My ideas are excellent. People are gonna love this. They want to consume this and my ideas are worth consuming
1:32:55 But there’s some rocks in the river that are blocking the flow. What are the rocks?
1:32:58 All I gotta do if I just simply remove those the water will flow nice
1:33:02 It was a more empowering thing for me versus like I gotta make this good. It’s bad. I gotta create good
1:33:05 It’s like no I kind of assume
1:33:08 If I got to the point of writing something it’s gonna be like there’s something good in it
1:33:13 I just got to remove the suck out of it, right? Uh, I think pixar uses that that analogy too. They say
1:33:21 Uh, all movies we make start with start with suck and our only job is to just remove the suck with every draft
1:33:23 So they do another revision say what sucks about it now
1:33:26 Well, it sucks that the main character’s not that likable because blah blah blah
1:33:29 So then they remove that suck and they come back again
1:33:30 That’s kind of the same mindset
1:33:34 So I’ll just look at it after after I come back and I’ll say is this doing what I want it
1:33:36 Do I think this is dope
1:33:38 Does this do what I want it to do and if not
1:33:43 What are the rocks I can remove? What’s the suck I can remove from this this part’s boring
1:33:48 This intro is doesn’t really hint at what’s gonna what’s to come this ending is just kind of like
1:33:50 So, yeah
1:33:55 That’s it. That’s the idea. I don’t have a good ending. Okay. So then I’ll just find that area and I’ll just try to fix that
1:34:01 Cool. How about with humor? What have you learned about writing with humor? Are you formulaic about that? Have you studied it?
1:34:06 That’s where I’m looking now like I’m starting to to pay attention. Um
1:34:12 What I’ve learned so far I’ll tell you what I’ve learned so far as like a white belt in the humor game is just uh
1:34:15 you know
1:34:17 You don’t want it to be
1:34:24 Humor is the sauce. It’s not the entree. So some people are writing something to be funny. Like it’s this is meant to make you laugh
1:34:27 Usually that’s not me. Usually it’s I’m trying to get a point across
1:34:31 But I’m gonna make you laugh along the way which will make this more enjoyable for you to consume
1:34:36 So it’s the sauce on the on the meal, but it’s not the meat. It’s not the protein of the of the of the thing
1:34:39 Which is good depressurizes it. It’s like, oh, does it apply a little bit here?
1:34:41 um
1:34:45 That’s the first part second part is all humor is just surprise. So, um
1:34:51 Every joke is a set up in a punch line, but the punch line if you see the punch line coming. It’s not very funny
1:34:53 so humor is surprise means
1:34:55 I have to
1:34:57 Set it up in a way where you don’t anticipate
1:35:02 This is what I’m gonna say and the contrast of what you thought I was gonna say and what I actually said is what makes you laugh
1:35:07 So you just kind of have to look for those moments where there’s a bit of an expect you set up an expectation
1:35:12 And then you subvert the expectation. Jerry Seinfeld article in the new york times. Here’s how he starts it
1:35:16 I knew this was gonna come in come in clutch and it just came in handy
1:35:18 he goes
1:35:22 When I got my first apartment in Manhattan in the hot summer of 1976
1:35:26 There was no poop or scooper law and the streets were covered in dog crap
1:35:31 I signed the rental agreement stepped outside and my car had been towed
1:35:36 Despite this I still thought this is the greatest place I’ve ever been in my life
1:35:37 All right
1:35:40 You know exactly sets it up pooper scooper funny word
1:35:42 Yeah, what’s going on there?
1:35:47 And I think that maybe we can go into funny words because it is interesting how certain words have a much higher
1:35:51 Propensity to be funny than other ones, right? If he has said there was no law around
1:35:58 Cleaning up your dog’s extra mint that that now is very pooper scooper is like jovial funny, right?
1:36:02 Exactly, and he then he goes and goes sort of takes you into this other time period. You’re thinking about poop
1:36:08 But then he goes my car had been towed and you’re like, oh my goodness. This sounds terrible
1:36:12 And then you said surprise, which is what I thought about that. He goes despite this. I still thought
1:36:17 This is the greatest place I’ve ever been in my life and this is in like this ode to new york city
1:36:19 Theo von is super
1:36:24 That’s exactly who I was thinking about he’s super popular right now. So good and he’s been great
1:36:27 I followed him since like the real world days basically a road rules days and so he’s
1:36:31 If you just listen to him talk that his brain just does something different
1:36:35 He’s his brain is like almost wired different. That was my initial story
1:36:38 But I was like, I bet you could practice Theo voning a little bit
1:36:41 As because like what Theo does if you’ve never seen him it’s not going to make any sense
1:36:44 But if you’ve seen him this will make all the sense of the world, which is that
1:36:46 Theo von will
1:36:48 Basically improvise he has no idea what he’s going to say
1:36:55 But he improvises he uses random language or he’ll make up a story that makes that is totally not true
1:36:58 But it’s kind of believable and he keeps us, you know a deadpan face when he’s doing it
1:37:01 Um, you can kind of practice that and so
1:37:06 Yeah, I think you know practicing is is obviously the best way to do it. Well, that’s a big one
1:37:11 Let’s follow this made up language coming up with words things that other people hadn’t thought of and
1:37:18 How do you go about doing that like it’s a fun little thing to play around with one of the things that I did
1:37:22 is I like the thinking through the juxtaposition so I
1:37:30 Wrote a piece about how I fell in love with the bible and I was like it needs some little bit of humor in it because it’s
1:37:36 You know, it’s the bible, right? It’s it’s it’s this it activates a part of your brain. We’re like, okay, this is
1:37:41 Exactly, right? The bible should actually just say hey, that should be the whole thing
1:37:47 Exactly so it activates that I was like I need something that’s funny. So I was like, okay
1:37:50 What is the emotional state that somebody’s and I was like working on it. I was like
1:37:54 Serious, you know, you think of almost like this fancy library and then I’m like
1:37:58 I would do my bible studies at a schlotzki’s
1:38:04 parking lot in a strip ball in the hill country and now you just get this juxtaposition
1:38:05 I’m not sure it was like that funny
1:38:10 But I think that it adds so much of life to the piece and I always try to think of like if I’m trying to be funny
1:38:11 Or create suspense
1:38:15 What is the emotional state that the reader’s in for most of this piece?
1:38:20 And then let me just like what you’re saying like spring a little bit of Tabasco sauce of the opposite. Yes
1:38:24 Yes, that’s exactly right. And I think you know an exercise you can do is
1:38:30 So like a Theovan exercise is basically he takes a thing. So let’s say it’s the bible
1:38:32 So it’s the bible
1:38:38 But what a Theovan humor like kind of laying he does is he’ll he’ll call the bible something else
1:38:42 That’s kind of funny like he’ll be like, uh, you know, he’d be like man that Jesus is binder
1:38:45 And it’ll be like it’s the it’s the bible
1:38:49 But now he calls it Jesus is behind then he’ll do another one and he’ll be like he’s like that’ll you know like
1:38:52 The old Himalayan diary and it’s like what what are you saying?
1:38:56 Like he just keeps coming up with different ways to say the bible
1:39:02 Or he’ll just be like, you know that that big brown behavior book and like he’ll just keep going and like I’ve never done this before
1:39:06 But like you could try that so you could just take anything and be like I’m gonna come with
1:39:10 Six like I’m just gonna keep going and it’s so hard to do like just now when I was doing that
1:39:14 I don’t I was like, why the hell are you trying to do this live on a podcast? But
1:39:16 That’s how you get better, right?
1:39:24 So, you know doing that is it trains your brain in a very different way of thinking than we are used to and that pays off because again
1:39:27 Common traits
1:39:32 Uncommonly together is very very valuable. You don’t need to be the funniest nor do you need to be the smartest
1:39:36 If you’re pretty smart and you’re kind of funny, you’re like the best, you know
1:39:39 So that’s that’s my whole strategy was basically to do that was like
1:39:42 I know I’m not funny enough to be a comedian
1:39:49 But I’m funnier than the average smart guy and I’m smarter than the average guy. So it’s like pretty smart kind of funny
1:39:57 That’s a good call. Well, it’s funny because uh, I went to you know, it was a church last weekend and I was with a friend
1:39:59 and
1:40:00 basically
1:40:07 We after the service she was like, man, you know, that was uh, that was a really good sermon and I was like, well, what do you like about?
1:40:10 about the pastor
1:40:13 and she was like, you know, he does a really good job of
1:40:19 talking about very serious sort of like weighty things but then layering in
1:40:22 tons of humor, right? So like
1:40:24 he was talking about
1:40:26 He was talking about, you know, you could have said
1:40:31 good people go to the light and they’re focused on moral values and integrity
1:40:36 And bad people move to the darkness and they run away from, you know, righteousness and stuff
1:40:40 And you’re like, okay, that’s not right and he goes
1:40:47 At any moment you can either be a cockroach or a moth right and I grew up in South Carolina
1:40:52 And you know, you go into the pantry sometimes and there’s some cockroaches on the ground
1:40:55 And like you want to step on those things but those things fly
1:40:58 And they go all over the place and like they’ll start eating your
1:41:05 Ritz crackers. I swear those cockroaches are so big they can practically pick up the babies and they’ll take them to cockroach land
1:41:09 Or wherever right and cockroaches they run away from the light, right?
1:41:13 And then you have your moths and the moths they go to the light
1:41:17 And then he like weaves these cockroaches and the moths throughout the entire sermon
1:41:20 So you’re getting this like chuckle, but then through the chuckle
1:41:23 It’s like creating this avenue for like extreme depth
1:41:28 And somehow it’s in the juxtaposition of those two things that the sermon ends up really hitting
1:41:33 And the humor like lowers your defenses on like needing to be a super, you know
1:41:37 Perfect person and all that and it’s like, okay, we can have some fun here
1:41:41 But then the fun actually allows us to then get to the depth
1:41:46 And that’s framing right he framed it differently same principle frame differently all of a sudden more accessible
1:41:52 More fun more more entertaining more memorable and memorability is is massively underrated
1:41:55 you know, what’s the point of having the good ideas if
1:41:59 Nobody remembers them right like you know part of your job
1:42:02 A responsibility if you actually have something worth
1:42:08 Worth remembering is to take the time and effort to package it in a way that is going to be catchy and memorable
1:42:14 Um, my buddy trevor. He was my roommate in college. He um, he made his whole career doing one thing
1:42:17 He basically reads what white papers which are like scientific journals
1:42:22 They’re the most like boring like read the abstract read the whole study whatever people
1:42:25 It’s crazy the scientists spend their whole life working on this day
1:42:27 And then they package it in the dullest format possible
1:42:32 Again with pride because that’s like a high status high status for them
1:42:35 It’s like it’s so
1:42:40 Boring that only another person who’s dedicated their life to this would possibly read this
1:42:44 Which means that none of the insights take it take it to the real world until you know
1:42:48 Somebody comes in and builds that bridge. So he built that bridge. He’s he would go learn something
1:42:51 He’d read this and he’d go talk to the scientists like some you know
1:42:54 Somebody’s been doing this for 50 years
1:42:57 And you know the number of people who follow them and listen to them is like, you know 35
1:43:01 And then my buddy started writing a blog and newsletter that eventually youtube
1:43:07 He built like a hundred thousand person email list about a really like dry subject, which is like, uh, you know
1:43:11 Uh growth mindset, uh, which is like how it applies into classrooms and stuff like that
1:43:16 And so he the way he did it was the same type of frame. He’s like imagine two tigers
1:43:19 One tiger grew up in the zoo
1:43:25 Um, and and you know a tiger that grows up in the zoo, you know, and he does he’ll teach this to like third graders
1:43:30 Or he’ll teach it to the new york Yankees, uh, you know CEOs of companies or you know kids basically
1:43:35 He does the same speech to both of them because it’s so easy to easy to understand so memorable. He’s like
1:43:38 Tiger tiger that grows up in the in the zoo
1:43:44 Has a life been easy or hard pretty easy, right? Do they fight for their own food or is it given to them?
1:43:46 Let’s give them into them. Okay, cool
1:43:51 Uh, jungle tiger jungle tigers life hard, right? Lots of adversity. They have to fight for their own food. They know how to survive
1:43:52 Oh, blah
1:43:57 If you take a um jungle tiger and you put it in the zoo, what happens like it’ll get bored
1:44:01 It’s like if you take a zoo tiger you put in the jungle, what happens like it’s dead
1:44:05 Like it doesn’t know how to survive and he’s basically like you want to be a jungle tiger, right?
1:44:11 Like and how do you do that? Well, you have to get out of your comfort zone the zoo where everything is easy and handed to you and
1:44:14 So when you reach those moments where you’re out of your comfort zone
1:44:18 Say to yourself like this is my jungle tiger. I got a jungle tiger this right now
1:44:21 Because I have to go I have to put myself out of my comfort zone to do this
1:44:27 He gave them a language to remember a whole set of principles that were all previously packaged in very boring scientific terms
1:44:33 You know, one of the things that I’m noticing from from you like I always think today
1:44:36 I’m doing these interviews like how is my writing process going to change
1:44:41 And one of the biggest things I picked up is I don’t need to learn from writers at all
1:44:49 What I’m going to do is I’m going to go study comedians and I’m going to be more deliberate about finding communicators who I really like
1:44:54 And then trying to say what are they doing and then bring that into my writing and then also
1:44:58 I think that you really see a fluidity between mediums that talking writing
1:45:04 Humor storytelling these things can all sort of play together and they’re sort of like paint colors where yeah, you can have
1:45:07 You know, you have the white paint the black paint the blue paint the green paint
1:45:11 But then you can also have like a you begin to mix them together and then you get all these different colors
1:45:16 And that maybe we shouldn’t be thinking about writing is like all these separate lanes
1:45:21 Actually for a lot of the different skills that you want to learn to make yourself a better writer
1:45:26 Don’t even study writers the best people for that might be in a totally far off field. Yeah. Yeah
1:45:32 You nailed it. Uh, good job. You synthesized it very very well. I I do think it’s a good strategy
1:45:40 Um to basically pick and choose from adjacent fields because you’re gonna do something different than other than you will only looking in
1:45:42 your own lane it becomes very
1:45:46 It’s why everything becomes the same because we all look at the same things
1:45:47 We all study the same things
1:45:50 And so like you know, I was hanging out with mr. Beast and he said the same thing
1:45:53 I was like what youtube channels do you like he’s like, I don’t only watch youtube that much anymore
1:45:58 Like you’re the number one youtuber in the world. You like larry and breathe youtube. He’s like, yeah, my channel
1:46:01 But then I was like, so where do you learn from? He’s like, well right now
1:46:05 We think that one thing we’re weak at is character development. So we study
1:46:09 shows tv shows and movies that are good at character development or
1:46:12 Whatever, and then he’s like trying to steal from other areas then
1:46:15 He’s like everybody else if you’re just on youtube looking at other youtubers
1:46:18 You’ll just become lost in a just sea of sameness
1:46:23 And um, I think that’s a useful tip for people to take on I want to end here
1:46:29 It’s you know, you built a newsletter called milk road and you had to train another writer to write your voice
1:46:34 And you believe that learning to write is actually teachable. So when you’re
1:46:38 Teaching other people to write what were some of the things that you focus on?
1:46:41 uh, yeah, so we
1:46:47 taught the teaching was important because I didn’t want that we had to send the email out every morning at like 6am
1:46:49 I was like, I’m not doing that like
1:46:51 I’m not good with consistency and see anyways. I don’t wake up that early
1:46:57 I know that no matter how fun this is that I will hate doing by like day 30
1:47:01 So from day one, I was like, I’m not going to write this but it’s going to be in my voice and style
1:47:06 How do you do that hire a guy who’s never written before and I sat him down and I was like
1:47:10 Um, first my business partner. I was like you write this and I was the editor
1:47:15 I was I was his editor for 30 days and I said cool now. You’re the editor now. You got a hire a writer
1:47:17 We hired the guy I’ve never written before
1:47:21 In any professional capacity or even blogged. I don’t I don’t think you have a blog either
1:47:26 Uh, but I told him and basically what we did was we took up one thing that helped as the newsletter
1:47:30 Was a consistent format. So it wasn’t like 10 different formats. It was one format
1:47:33 And I broke down
1:47:37 Why we write it the way we write it line by line our opening line at milk road was always like
1:47:44 Good morning. This is the milk road the you know, and we would say what we do and then we would say in a funny
1:47:47 And then we would add a tag we would tag it with a joke. So we would say
1:47:51 We are the number one source for figure out what happened in crypto yesterday
1:47:53 um
1:47:55 think of us like
1:48:00 Think of us like a toaster strudel a fresh tasty sweet for you and uh treat for you in the mornings
1:48:02 And then parentheses we tag the joke again
1:48:06 And we would just be like what the f happened to toaster strudels anyways kids these days
1:48:11 They’re missing out right and it’s like we would tag that we were so we’d always tag the joke and we’d be like
1:48:15 We are uh, gm. We’re the we’re the milk road. We are um
1:48:20 We give you exactly everything you need to know about crypto in the morning and nothing nothing that you don’t need to know
1:48:24 um, and then we would say we would tag it might be like um
1:48:27 I would say something like we’re
1:48:34 Uh reading this newsletter is is is the second best feeling in the world the first best of course is when you’re in a car
1:48:39 You roll down the window and you start doing that cool dolphin thing with your hands, right? Like some relatable funny thing
1:48:41 That’s just like put you in a good mood
1:48:45 And we were like can we get this can we get you to smile and can we get you to be like I like I love these guys
1:48:49 Can we give you a reason to open this that’s not based on the bitcoin price was another way of thinking about it
1:48:54 And so we that you know, so I started training. It was like the first line. This is what we do
1:48:58 Here’s why we’re doing it and here’s 10 examples of doing it good
1:49:01 And then he was like cool got it. I can I can pattern match to that
1:49:04 the other thing that we did was
1:49:05 he was um
1:49:09 He was doing the school thing where he’s like he thought he had to be a different guy like
1:49:12 Oh, maybe I need to be a really sophisticated do sophisticated analysis
1:49:17 So I need to do kind of like people think what they write they need to do something outside of themselves now
1:49:20 The whole point of writing is to take you and just push it out
1:49:25 And so don’t try to create this fake thing that you think other people might want
1:49:26 Just take you and push it out
1:49:28 And so for example
1:49:32 He would talk about subjects and the writing was fine, but the subject was boring
1:49:35 So I was like, dude, why’d you pick this? He’s like, I don’t know. I felt like you know, it was in the news
1:49:37 People needed to know about it. I was like, did you care about this? No
1:49:44 Not really. I was like, would you have ever like texted me or slacked me or sent me a voice note being like
1:49:48 Dude, did you hear about this? This thing’s awesome. Or this is crazy. Did you hear about this? This is really interesting
1:49:51 He’s like, no, I would never say that. I’m like, cool. Why are we telling?
1:49:55 Why are we telling 200,000 people about this if you wouldn’t tell me?
1:49:58 And so what I made him do I was like every morning
1:50:00 I want you to send a voice note
1:50:04 Send a voice memo and just tell me the news before you write anything
1:50:07 Just be like, oh, yeah, everybody on twitter is freaking out because they’re worried about this
1:50:10 uh thing that happened or
1:50:12 um, the price is up today because of
1:50:17 Because there’s rumors about this right now and what that means is that if that happened then this would happen
1:50:21 So he would just say it to me and it was it was such a good filter because he could stop himself
1:50:23 If he was going to tell me something that was boring
1:50:27 He would catch himself. Like I would never say this to somebody. It’s boring to me and it’ll be boring to you
1:50:31 So it filtered out the subject beautifully. So like those are the two big things was
1:50:35 showing him what we do in and like giving him a sample and then saying
1:50:39 Here’s what good looks like. Here’s 10 more examples. I’m good
1:50:42 um, and then secondly installing that one step of like
1:50:49 Don’t do that imposter thing where you start talking about shit that you’re not even that interested in because guess what?
1:50:50 Nobody else interested in it
1:50:54 Like and the filter for that was send me a voice memo if it’s not interesting in the voice memo
1:50:56 It’s definitely not going to be interesting in low text
1:50:59 Why do you think that dolphin thing is so funny?
1:51:03 It is hilarious relatable and like, you know, it’s it’s not even that’s funny
1:51:07 It’s just like funny that we put again. It’s unexpected like why are you writing this?
1:51:11 Um, you know, everybody says we’re the best. We said we’re the second best thing in the world
1:51:14 So I knew immediately like what’s first best
1:51:17 First best and then I can’t say a serious thing
1:51:22 I have to say an unserious thing. So I’m like the first best thing is this feeling because we all know this feeling is great
1:51:25 like, you know that feeling it’s an amazing feeling and so, um,
1:51:29 we just knew like okay things like that are
1:51:35 Surprising likable funny you can do them in one line. So it’s not like you have to like set up a long story or joke
1:51:41 It was very useful. It was very efficient as a like mechanism there. Sweet. That was good fun. Thanks, man. Yeah, absolutely. Thanks for having me
1:51:47 I feel like I can rule the world. I know I could be what I want to
1:51:53 I put my all in it like no days off on the road. Let’s travel never looking back
1:51:54 – Bye.
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