Ken Coleman: Get Clear on Your Purpose, Find the Work You’re Wired to Do | E296

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0:01:13 If I’m not doing work that matters to me, I eventually start to wonder if my job matters
0:01:14 and then it gets really scary.
0:01:15 I start to wonder if I matter.
0:01:20 One of the three human needs that workers have to have met is meaning and purpose in
0:01:21 their work.
0:01:26 Two is recognition for their unique contribution and three is a relationship with their leader.
0:01:31 Those three needs, those are all heart stuff and that just shows our humans.
0:01:32 Ken Coleman.
0:01:36 He’s a Ramsay personality and number one best-selling author of The Proximity Principle.
0:01:39 Career expert and a national radio host of the Ken Coleman show.
0:01:44 A nationally syndicated radio show where he helps people discover what they were born
0:01:45 to do.
0:01:49 What are some of the feelings that people have when you’re not in the right career?
0:01:52 So number one, there’s a feeling of loss.
0:01:55 They wouldn’t define it as loss, but it really is a loss.
0:01:58 It’s an emotional loss because you feel like you’ve lost time.
0:02:02 What that looks like is that discouragement, you get anger at yourself, things haven’t
0:02:03 worked out the way you want to.
0:02:06 I also think there’s a fear of the unknown.
0:02:10 Talk to us about the problem of being disengaged and bored at work right now.
0:02:11 So the answer is…
0:02:30 Young end-profiters, I am pumped for today’s conversation because I feel like it’s going
0:02:32 to really change lives.
0:02:35 Many of you guys tuning in right now are unhappy with your jobs.
0:02:37 You’re frustrated with your careers.
0:02:41 You’re bored at work and you want to figure out how you can find a career that really
0:02:43 fulfills you.
0:02:48 And for my entrepreneurs tuning in, you need to understand how your employees are motivated,
0:02:52 what’s going to drive them to be engaged at work and be productive.
0:02:56 And so it’s really a two-fold thing, whether you’re in your career right now, you want
0:03:00 to find your dream career, you want to figure out what you’re good at, what you should focus
0:03:05 on, or you’re an entrepreneur and you need to figure out how to keep your team motivated
0:03:06 and productive.
0:03:08 This episode is going to uncover that for you.
0:03:10 Our guest today is Ken Coleman.
0:03:13 He’s known as America’s career coach.
0:03:17 He’s also the best-selling author of Paycheck to Purpose and the Proximity Principle.
0:03:22 And he’s a very well-known radio host of the Ken Coleman show, as well as the co-host
0:03:24 of the Ramsey show.
0:03:26 Amazing guest, so energetic.
0:03:28 I can’t wait for this conversation.
0:03:31 Without further ado, Ken, welcome to Young and Profiting Podcast.
0:03:32 Thanks for having me, Hala.
0:03:33 I’m excited.
0:03:36 I’m excited for this conversation too.
0:03:39 So for everybody tuning in, you are right now living your dream career.
0:03:44 You are a host of a nationally syndicated radio show.
0:03:50 You are frequently co-hosting on the Ramsey show, which is an uber popular podcast.
0:03:53 You’re known as America’s career coach.
0:03:56 But there was a point in your life where you were pretty unfulfilled.
0:04:02 So I thought that we could start in your early career days, talk to us about your first soul-sucking
0:04:03 job.
0:04:07 Well, it’s funny that you asked that because it was working for me.
0:04:14 I was in my late 20s and I was on a path that I had carved out or certainly envisioned
0:04:16 when I was 16.
0:04:24 And I was in the process, I thought, of gaining a legitimate business resume.
0:04:30 And part of this journey was stepping out on my own so that I could take the next step.
0:04:37 And I realized that the thing that I was preparing for, a potential run for political office,
0:04:39 that was no longer the goal.
0:04:43 And so here I am running the small business, which was just a means to an end, just a day
0:04:44 job.
0:04:46 But it was working for me.
0:04:47 But it was soul-sucking work.
0:04:48 I didn’t enjoy it.
0:04:51 It was in a sales role and I could always sell.
0:04:55 But it was a means to an end and then the end changed.
0:04:58 And when that changed, I realized I no longer wanted to be involved in politics.
0:05:01 I got disenfranchised with both sides of the aisle.
0:05:03 It’s just the whole process.
0:05:08 It just was no longer a place where I felt like I couldn’t make the difference that I
0:05:09 desired to make.
0:05:17 And so that was something that was shaking for me to my soul because I had been thinking
0:05:21 about this since the age of 16 and had made strides and had been involved in politics,
0:05:25 then got back out into the business world and was trying to build this caricature, if
0:05:29 you will, to be this impressive person that could potentially get elected.
0:05:33 And so when that changed, two things happened.
0:05:39 One, it left me wondering, if not this, then what?
0:05:42 And then the second thing that happened is I began to beat up myself and I felt like
0:05:43 I’d wasted all this time.
0:05:46 Here I am in my late 20s, bro, what are you doing?
0:05:48 I was really crushing myself.
0:05:51 You just pissed away 10 years.
0:05:54 Now here you are on the precipice of 30.
0:05:59 I know we have a younger audience, but 30 really freaked me out more so than any other
0:06:04 decade because it felt like I was now supposed to be certain things and this and this and
0:06:05 this.
0:06:06 And the time was ticking away.
0:06:08 You don’t think about it much in your 20s.
0:06:14 So that put me in a position where I was really discouraged and confused at the same time.
0:06:16 And that’s a dangerous place to be in.
0:06:22 And so I snapped out of it eventually and just began to work with some great life coaches,
0:06:27 people that I had access to and they gave me some exercises and I began just to walk
0:06:32 through some life mapping and went back and that’s when I figured out, ah, there’s a
0:06:33 different direction.
0:06:34 Yeah.
0:06:38 It’s so interesting that you were so focused on politics and I feel like a lot of people
0:06:39 are in this boat.
0:06:43 They’re younger and they decide, oh, I want to be a doctor for instance.
0:06:47 And then they go down this whole path and they go through school and then they become
0:06:51 a doctor and they hate it and they don’t know what to do and they feel like it’s too late.
0:06:53 I wasted so much time.
0:06:58 What are some of the feelings that people have when you’re not in the right career?
0:06:59 All right.
0:07:02 So number one, there’s a feeling of loss.
0:07:04 And this is deeper than most people.
0:07:07 I don’t think most people would say to me, are you and I, if we went on the street and
0:07:10 we started asking young people this or people that feel this, they wouldn’t, I don’t think
0:07:13 to find it as loss, but it really is a loss.
0:07:16 It’s an emotional loss because you feel like you’ve lost time.
0:07:20 So what that looks like is that discouragement.
0:07:21 There’s some anger.
0:07:24 If you get angry at yourself, maybe angry at others, you know, if things haven’t worked
0:07:32 out the way you want to, I also think there’s a lot of fear, fear of, okay, if I now pivot
0:07:35 and go after something else, what are other people going to say?
0:07:36 Maybe I got a degree in this.
0:07:37 I love your example.
0:07:38 You go to med school.
0:07:41 I mean, that’s a lot of time and money invested.
0:07:45 And by the way, we all know this in pretty much every society in the world.
0:07:47 Doctors are considered to be very prolific people.
0:07:50 They’re respected people for obvious reasons.
0:07:53 So now you’re dealing with fear of rejection.
0:07:55 What are my parents, my friends and family going to say?
0:07:58 What you’re walking away from being a doctor if you lost your mind?
0:08:03 That’s the fear of peers, the fear of rejection, if you will, fear of the unknown.
0:08:05 And that’s what I was dealing with.
0:08:09 Once I knew that politics wasn’t it, I was sitting in this fear of the unknown, which
0:08:13 I think Hala is the greatest fear that we as humans face.
0:08:18 This idea of if I’m walking in a dark cave and I can no longer see the hand in front
0:08:19 of my face.
0:08:20 It’s paralyzing.
0:08:25 If we’re driving in a car, a torrential downpour, the fear of what’s out there and
0:08:29 I don’t know what’s next is paralyzing.
0:08:30 That’s a big feeling.
0:08:33 And then I would say doubt, the cousin of fear.
0:08:37 Fear is I afraid of something bad happening if I move forward.
0:08:41 Doubt is I don’t believe something good will happen if I move forward.
0:08:44 There are cousins they like to hang out together and feed off of each other, but I think those
0:08:46 are the emotions people are feeling.
0:08:50 So let’s talk about how you discovered your dream career because now you have an awesome
0:08:51 career in broadcasting.
0:08:56 We actually have a lot of similarities in terms of how we got to our dream careers in
0:08:57 broadcasting.
0:09:03 So talk to us about this 10-year journey to get to the upper levels of broadcasting,
0:09:04 essentially.
0:09:08 Yeah, I’m glad you asked this because trial and error is really huge and the key word
0:09:09 here is trying.
0:09:14 I think the best way to get over doubt is to try something.
0:09:19 Because when we try, we figure out an actual measurement to see do I actually have any
0:09:20 potential.
0:09:25 You know, if I try to play golf, which I did a couple of years ago, I found out really
0:09:29 quickly what my potential is and it’s not good.
0:09:33 I’ve tried pickleball since and I’ve got a lot more potential in pickleball, right?
0:09:37 So we think of this in hobbies, but this is also true of our profession.
0:09:44 So the answer is I felt like I always had this desire to perform and it went back in
0:09:46 a life map and it goes real quick.
0:09:48 I went, okay, I always love performing.
0:09:50 As a kid, I was volunteering to be in the play.
0:09:52 I was a little bit of a class clown.
0:09:53 I wanted the pressure.
0:09:55 I would do things in front of the whole student body.
0:10:01 So I found the theme here that I actually like the pressure of people looking at me.
0:10:04 Sometimes we get on kids for that, but I think that’s a beautiful thing because most people
0:10:07 are terrified of public speaking more so than death.
0:10:08 We know this.
0:10:10 This is a piece of data that’s been out forever.
0:10:12 So I figured out, okay, I like to perform.
0:10:14 I like the pressure that comes with the performing.
0:10:18 So now I have to start to go, what type of performing do I want to do?
0:10:24 Do I want to be a corporate speaker and go out and speak and be a keynote speaker?
0:10:29 Do I want to go into some type of non-profit or ministry work where maybe I’m speaking
0:10:31 on behalf of a cause?
0:10:36 Do I want to go into hard news broadcasting where you’re looking at a teleprompter and
0:10:37 you’re just kind of reading?
0:10:39 Do I want to go into sports because I love sports?
0:10:41 Okay, I thought I wanted to run for office.
0:10:43 Do I want to go into political media?
0:10:49 And so I went down the list and sports kind of jumped out to me because I still love sports
0:10:50 and I love talking about sports.
0:10:53 So I tried it and I got into it and I did.
0:10:55 It wasn’t a major break, but I got some little breaks.
0:11:01 And what I figured out is that talking about sports was a form of entertainment and I wasn’t
0:11:03 motivated to entertain people.
0:11:10 That led me to realize that I want to communicate to encourage people, to coach people.
0:11:15 So it was a process of elimination, I’m giving you the super short process, but that’s when
0:11:20 I got to the point where I was like, “Okay, how can I now do broadcasting to encourage
0:11:23 to equip people?”
0:11:28 And that’s how I started to figure out, “Okay, there is an actual world out here where you
0:11:31 can communicate to help people transform their life.”
0:11:37 And the key to that was I loved the sports broadcasting, it was fun because I was performing.
0:11:40 But I really started to realize that if I do this every day, I’m going to get bored with
0:11:46 this pretty quick because I’m not deeply passionate about giving people my opinion on a sports
0:11:48 team organization or a league.
0:11:50 So there was a process of elimination.
0:11:55 And we’re going to talk all about why passion is so important, not just your talents and
0:11:56 things like that later on.
0:12:01 But what I think is so interesting with your story is that it wasn’t like that big of a
0:12:02 change.
0:12:07 Like if you think about it, being a politician, it’s like you’re still up there on a stage
0:12:12 and you’re still motivating people, you still have to use your voice and sometimes it’s
0:12:19 not necessarily like a 360 degree pivot, it’s just a slight pivot to a different career,
0:12:20 right?
0:12:21 Great analysis.
0:12:27 So for example, when I was developing my career, I wanted to be a singer my whole life and
0:12:31 I would perform, I always had a solo, I was always a star of the plays, I was writing
0:12:36 music in college and actually I started interning at Hot 97.
0:12:40 I would work there for free for three years and I was Angie Martinez’s assistant for
0:12:46 the reason of pushing my music at the station, not to become a personality.
0:12:50 And then I learned about radio and I loved it and I realized, hey, I don’t know if I’m
0:12:53 really going to be make it as a singer, but I could probably really make it as an on air
0:12:54 personality.
0:12:58 So I just pivoted slightly and used my voice in a different way.
0:13:01 And then same thing with podcasting, it was like a slight pivot.
0:13:05 So I think that’s important for people to understand, you don’t have to totally change
0:13:06 what you’re doing.
0:13:10 Just be that something is a little bit off with the career that you chose.
0:13:11 That’s incredible.
0:13:13 I love that you shared your story on this.
0:13:14 I hope your audience knows that.
0:13:18 If they don’t know it, they need to keep diving into that because what you did is you just
0:13:21 saw greater opportunity over here.
0:13:23 It didn’t make you less talented.
0:13:26 It didn’t make you less valuable to the world.
0:13:30 And I think in some ways we can see the value you’re providing now.
0:13:36 It’s hard to say, it’s hard to say whether or not you would touch lives and truly transform
0:13:41 and have a role in people’s transformation if you had made it as a big time artist.
0:13:43 So it’s fascinating to see that.
0:13:46 And I think that that’s a really key point.
0:13:48 I realized that there was a thread.
0:13:53 The thread was communicating on behalf of people.
0:13:59 I thought it was politics found out, nope, I can make way more difference over here if
0:14:02 I’m communicating in this lane on this issue.
0:14:06 So fun little exercise for people that may be in a position that you and I were both
0:14:08 in that I didn’t know back then, Holly.
0:14:11 So I’ve developed this now, coaching 10,000 people on the air.
0:14:13 Three little fun questions.
0:14:17 If you’re figuring out, it’s not this, what is it?
0:14:18 And Holly, you made a great point.
0:14:22 There’s going to be some similarities, even on the pivot, there’s going to be similarities.
0:14:23 So here’s how you figure it out.
0:14:26 Ask yourself, who are the people I want to help?
0:14:30 And think of this through a work contact, because all work, certainly honorable work,
0:14:31 helps people.
0:14:33 Who are the people I want to help?
0:14:37 Second question, what’s the problem or desire that they have?
0:14:42 And then the third question is, what’s the solution or solutions to that problem or
0:14:45 desire that I get excited about?
0:14:48 So real quick review, who are the people I want to help?
0:14:50 What problem or desire do they have?
0:14:53 What solution to that problem or desire do I get excited about?
0:14:54 This is where we ideate.
0:14:58 And this is where our heart, these are heart questions, these three questions are designed
0:15:00 to get the heart to open up.
0:15:05 And when the head, the brain, sees what the heart is pushing up to say, I want to help
0:15:06 these people.
0:15:09 So I want to help people who are struggling with substance abuse.
0:15:10 Great.
0:15:12 What’s the problem or desire they have?
0:15:16 Substance abuse, a destructive world life that traumatized them.
0:15:18 And so they reach out here, whatever.
0:15:20 So I want to help them through therapy.
0:15:21 I want to help them through whatever.
0:15:25 So the three questions are essentially the same question, but you’re coming at it from
0:15:29 three different vantage points and each answer builds on the other.
0:15:32 And by the way, you don’t have to ask them in that order.
0:15:36 You could be a person that goes, I know what kind of solutions I want to give the world.
0:15:37 And you go, okay, what is that?
0:15:38 I want a code.
0:15:39 Oh, great.
0:15:41 Who do you want to code for?
0:15:42 And you can reverse engineer.
0:15:44 Well, I want to code for kids and make video games.
0:15:45 Okay, great.
0:15:50 So that’s something that’s really helpful that I wish I had developed for myself years ago,
0:15:57 but now having coached people, those three questions help us go deep within so we can
0:16:02 see who we really are and where we can really contribute.
0:16:03 I love that.
0:16:08 And I think that’s super great advice, especially for people who are maybe a little bit older,
0:16:10 maybe in their thirties to be asking that question.
0:16:13 So I recently had an interview with Gary Vee.
0:16:18 And one of the things that he says is that in your twenties, it should be all about experimenting
0:16:20 and figuring out what you’re doing.
0:16:24 So I’m in my thirties now and I have a multi-million dollar company.
0:16:29 I have a podcast network, a social agency, a top 100 podcast.
0:16:35 And I attribute all this success because I experimented a lot when I was in my twenties.
0:16:37 I was working for free at a radio station.
0:16:38 I was blogging.
0:16:42 I was selling underground rapper showcase tickets.
0:16:43 I was working at the mall.
0:16:48 I was getting so much different experiences and I really didn’t have it figured out.
0:16:52 I had other friends who already had corporate careers when I was still trying to create
0:16:55 a blog site and do all these other things, right?
0:16:58 But I’m happy that I did that and I experimented.
0:17:02 And I know that you also did a lot of experimentation and working for free.
0:17:07 So talk to us about the importance of acquiring skills so you actually know what you’re good
0:17:09 at because you’ve got a test to know what you’re good at.
0:17:11 Yeah, that’s so true.
0:17:15 You have to figure out what you’re good at first because once we figure out what you
0:17:17 came into this world hardwired to do.
0:17:20 From a talent standpoint, I’ve got three teenagers.
0:17:25 Any parent can look at their kids and go, “This kid’s talented at this.
0:17:26 This kid’s…”
0:17:27 They just know.
0:17:28 We all know.
0:17:29 And you’ve been complimenting for this stuff your whole life.
0:17:33 So even the most doubtful person watching us right now and listening to us right now,
0:17:37 the most doubtful person you just down, your self-esteem is down, your confidence is low.
0:17:38 Can I just tell you something?
0:17:41 If you need to pick me up, I want you to just rewind your life.
0:17:44 And throughout your life, there have been times where people said, “You’re a natural
0:17:45 at that.”
0:17:46 Or, “That just comes so easy to you.
0:17:50 Maybe you saw your sibling struggle at it and you went, ‘Huh, it’s easy for me.
0:17:51 Here’s my point.”
0:17:59 Once we all truly get self-aware enough to go, “Okay, this is what I’m good at naturally.”
0:18:03 With education, I’m learning and experience doing.
0:18:08 I can take a talent and I can make it super, super sharp.
0:18:09 I can make it a skill.
0:18:12 I’m going to use an old school kind of example here.
0:18:13 You think of a potter.
0:18:17 If any of your audience has ever watched a potter make pottery, it’s fascinating to
0:18:18 me.
0:18:24 They take a lump of clay, they put it on the potter’s wheel and through water and their
0:18:31 force of their hands, working with the wheel, they shape this inanimate object of clay into
0:18:34 something extremely usable.
0:18:36 That’s the idea of taking a talent and turning it into a skill.
0:18:40 We start there and once we figure out what we’re good at and how we can turn that into
0:18:45 a sharpened skill, now we can see the world through the lens of, “I’ve got these tools.”
0:18:47 Think of them as power tools.
0:18:54 Not the old school handsaw, but we’re doing it in six seconds as opposed to six minutes.
0:19:00 Now I can see, “I have these tools and these tools, skills, do this.”
0:19:06 As I begin to see what these skills can do, then that allows me to do two things.
0:19:10 Number one, it allows me to build confidence.
0:19:11 Confidence is everything.
0:19:15 I’ll just tell you this as a guy who’s been blessed, and I mean this, to just coach people.
0:19:17 They’ve called in for years and it’s just mind blowing.
0:19:22 I have to coach them in about eight minutes, which is, that’s intense, but I tell you what
0:19:23 it’s taught me.
0:19:26 It’s taught me how to quickly discern what’s going on and get to the heart of the matter
0:19:27 fast.
0:19:31 What I’ve learned is just about every caller or every person I’ve coached from a live
0:19:35 stage, they’re sitting there with an alternative they think is the right choice and they’re
0:19:38 ultimately looking to me for confidence.
0:19:39 That’s what I know.
0:19:42 I’m speaking about confidence being really, really important.
0:19:45 Once I’m confident, I know what I can do, I’m confident.
0:19:46 That’s what happens.
0:19:49 Then clarity starts to come in.
0:19:50 Look at me.
0:19:52 I suck in math and science skills.
0:19:55 That part of my brain, I should have my brain studied when I died because it’s dark.
0:19:58 It’s just math and science really hard for me.
0:20:03 I was always good in the English or the history, much more verbal guy.
0:20:06 If I’m looking at me and I’m going, “What do I do best?”
0:20:10 Communication, verbal skills, I tell you what I’m not going to be doing.
0:20:13 I’m not looking into health and medicine.
0:20:14 That’s the idea.
0:20:15 It gives me clarity.
0:20:17 Oh, I probably am wired to do people work.
0:20:19 That’s the idea.
0:20:23 What’s so interesting is that we always hear about imposter syndrome.
0:20:28 Really, imposter syndrome, in my opinion, is when you’re in a job that you don’t have
0:20:29 the right skills for.
0:20:34 You don’t have the right talents for and you feel inadequate because it’s not your strengths.
0:20:35 Would you agree with that?
0:20:36 I think it can be that.
0:20:37 Yeah.
0:20:38 Let’s take that scenario.
0:20:43 In that situation, you realize, “I don’t think I’m cut out for this because I don’t
0:20:45 have the talent.”
0:20:46 It’s like me trying a new sport.
0:20:48 It was the golf example earlier.
0:20:51 I get out there and play enough and play with better golfers.
0:20:55 I’m going to have some doubt as to whether or not I’m ever going to get there.
0:20:58 In that situation is not a syndrome.
0:20:59 That’s reality.
0:21:02 That’s me going, “I’m not going to be good enough.
0:21:04 I just don’t have the skill set.”
0:21:07 The mental makeup to be good in golf.
0:21:13 Yes, it absolutely can be a sign that … and I’m glad you brought this up because a lot
0:21:18 of times, even a guy like me in my world, I’ll poo poo fear and doubt because they are enemies
0:21:21 of progress, but many times fear and doubt are protecting us.
0:21:26 In the scenario you just brought up, which I think is insightful, we’ve got to have
0:21:30 enough self-awareness that when we experience doubt, we know whether doubt is lying to us
0:21:35 and holding us back or doubt’s going, “Oh, there’s a reason that you have doubt.”
0:21:36 You’re average at best.
0:21:41 If you bust your ass, you’re only going to be average and people don’t pay for average.
0:21:42 Yes.
0:21:48 It’s almost like a dictionary problem where you need to learn the ropes and the abbreviations
0:21:54 that everybody’s using or is this really like a skills problem and it’s not your strengths.
0:21:59 Let’s talk about boredom and disengagement at work because I remember last year so many
0:22:04 of my conversations, people were talking about quiet quitting, and so many people were quitting
0:22:06 their jobs to become freelancers and entrepreneurs.
0:22:11 I feel like it’s studied out a bit, but talk to us about the problem of being disengaged
0:22:13 and bored at work right now.
0:22:14 Yes.
0:22:15 I love that you bring up boredom.
0:22:19 It doesn’t get talked about enough, I think, when we talk about these work trends.
0:22:22 Boredom is just a function of there’s just no challenge.
0:22:28 There’s no challenge and challenge comes at us, I think, with two key characteristics.
0:22:35 I’m challenged because it’s difficult, but I think I got enough chops to handle it.
0:22:42 Or I’m challenged because I love it so much that I want to take that to the next level.
0:22:48 The guy who’s the goat on this, his name is Mihai Cheek-Sent-Mihai, he’s got a very popular
0:22:53 TED Talk on the topic of flow, and here’s what his research over 30 years found.
0:22:59 Part of being in a state of flow, which is kind of a state of ecstasy, actually, is not
0:23:05 drug or sexual, it is a mental state that he describes, and part of getting to that
0:23:07 flow is challenge.
0:23:14 It must be challenging so that I am engaged to, I got to really lock in, I got to focus,
0:23:19 I got to put effort in, I got to be at my best, so that’s the challenge piece.
0:23:25 But the challenge and the aptitude or the ability to meet the challenge are the same,
0:23:32 and so that’s a huge part of this, and so boredom happens when one or both of those
0:23:37 are really off, and let’s be honest with you, boredom happens when we’re doing a job that
0:23:43 takes very little effort, and so we’re scrolling on social media, or we’re talking to our coworkers,
0:23:45 because there’s just no challenge.
0:23:48 There’s no challenge mentally, and there’s no challenge emotionally, and that’s what
0:23:49 I was saying earlier.
0:23:53 The mental challenge is obviously it’s got to push me, and I got to really lock in,
0:23:57 but the emotional challenge too is like, do I actually give a crap?
0:24:03 Does this work that I got to do, is it enjoyable for me, and then does it create a result that
0:24:05 I actually think is great?
0:24:10 So if you put me on a spreadsheet, I’m telling you I’m dead, because I’m not naturally good
0:24:16 at spreadsheet and organization and all that stuff, and I could give a crap about organization.
0:24:20 I got people around me who do all that that I love in the organization.
0:24:25 I’m a creative, so the more I’m bouncing from thing to thing to thing, and I’m engaging
0:24:31 with you, that’s fun for me, so that’s what boredom does, and so here’s the deal.
0:24:36 To wrap this up, boredom will suck the soul right out of you, because when a human being
0:24:42 isn’t challenged, then what happens is they begin to think that there is no challenge
0:24:48 to be had, and you just retreat and settle, and it creates a lot of stress by the way.
0:24:49 That’s what’s crazy.
0:24:53 The more bored you are, the more stress you have.
0:24:57 Let’s hold that thought and take a quick break with our sponsors.
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0:29:11 You’ve been really passionate about helping people with their careers for years now.
0:29:14 You have multiple books under your belt related to careers.
0:29:16 And I read a quote from you that I want to read.
0:29:20 You said, “We are all souls and we are created to contribute.
0:29:25 And if you don’t contribute something that matters to you, then there’s something missing.”
0:29:28 And so we talked a bit about challenge, but talk to us about meaning.
0:29:31 Why do we have to have meaning in our work?
0:29:34 Because we are spirits.
0:29:40 And I don’t care where you come from in the world, what your religion is, what your political
0:29:43 affiliation is, strip all of that away.
0:29:48 And the one commonality that all humans have is somewhere along the way in our journey,
0:29:51 we all wonder, “What should I do with my life?”
0:29:54 And then we also think, “What’s the contribution I’m making?”
0:29:57 We all kind of want to make our mark.
0:29:58 And I just think that’s the way we’re created.
0:29:59 I’ll just leave it at that.
0:30:04 I think it’s just there, and nobody has to teach anybody to wonder that, because I think
0:30:06 we all just want to make a difference.
0:30:10 I think if you’re going to find one thing that humans can unify around is good, healthy
0:30:14 people want to help others, they just want to help others.
0:30:17 So that is the issue.
0:30:23 And so when we look at this innate desire to make a difference, make a mark, you can
0:30:28 say it 80 different ways, then we realize meaning matters so much.
0:30:35 Giving an example, throughout history, we’ve seen dictators, evil people, use meaningless
0:30:40 work as torture, I mean, multiple civilizations, just go do your homework.
0:30:45 You can pick any time of history, certainly not modern history, but I mean, right now,
0:30:51 I know of countries around the world where people are just pounding rocks to pay off
0:30:52 debts.
0:30:53 They’re just pounding those rocks.
0:30:54 So that’s not what we’re talking about.
0:30:59 I’m talking about literally meaningless work as torture.
0:31:01 So that’s a fascinating thing.
0:31:05 If there’s no meaning behind it, you’re like, why am I doing this?
0:31:10 And that’s psychological torture, not physical torture.
0:31:11 And it’s fascinating.
0:31:13 And so why is that?
0:31:16 Because we as humans are creatures of progress.
0:31:18 So if I’m not, here’s the danger slope.
0:31:24 If I’m not doing work that matters to me, I eventually start to wonder if my job matters
0:31:25 and then it gets really scary.
0:31:27 I start to wonder if I matter.
0:31:30 So I think that that’s the reason why meaning matters.
0:31:33 By the way, the data from Gallup shows up all the time.
0:31:38 One of the three human needs that Gallup said that workers have to have met, one of them
0:31:41 is meaning and purpose in their work.
0:31:46 Two is recognition for their unique contribution and three is a relationship with their leader.
0:31:48 Now here’s what’s funny.
0:31:54 Those three needs, those are all heart stuff and that just shows our humanness.
0:32:01 So related to this point, I think the average age of my listeners is 35, 37.
0:32:02 And that’s not young.
0:32:03 It’s not old.
0:32:04 It’s sort of in the middle.
0:32:08 And I’m sure there’s a lot of people tuning in that are like, man, I feel like my job
0:32:09 is meaningless.
0:32:14 I feel like my life is meaningless, but I feel like I’m too old to make a change.
0:32:17 I always say you’re never too old to start something new.
0:32:23 I started my podcast pretty late considering, you know, I was 30 years old when I started
0:32:28 my podcast and I did so much in the last five years.
0:32:32 I like basically dominated the industry in five years.
0:32:35 I had a lot of experience in radio and other things before that.
0:32:40 So I started with a head start, but still I got a lot accomplished in that short amount
0:32:41 of time.
0:32:46 And a lot of people don’t realize that in five years you could do so much.
0:32:47 So talk to us about that.
0:32:51 Is there really an age where it’s too late to start thinking about a new career?
0:32:53 No, I think you’re right.
0:32:57 Here’s what I’ve told people when I’ve coached them on this because I’ve had people in their
0:32:58 late fifties.
0:33:01 I had a lady call my show recently, it was 61.
0:33:02 So here’s what I told her.
0:33:03 I said, it’s not too late.
0:33:09 The only thing that you’ve got to adjust is it’s not too late to start something new,
0:33:15 but the amount of time you have to do that thing is shorter.
0:33:18 But you’ve got plenty of time to start it and do it.
0:33:22 You just don’t have as much time to stay in it as a 25 year old, right?
0:33:25 At least that needs to be the expectation.
0:33:29 But let’s also be honest, you know, certainly don’t want to freak anybody out here.
0:33:32 But this is the kind of thing you and I talk about and then we do, you know, you’re not
0:33:33 promised tomorrow.
0:33:38 You could be 25 and something awful happened to you completely out of your control and
0:33:40 you don’t make it to 30.
0:33:44 So from that standpoint to the 20 something, let’s get after it.
0:33:47 Don’t put all this pressure on you to figure it out in your 20s.
0:33:51 But do what Hollad did, do what I did, go do something and work your way up.
0:33:53 So to that older person, it’s not too late.
0:33:59 The only mindset adjustment here is, all right, if I’m starting at X date, then I don’t have
0:34:02 the runway that I would have had much younger.
0:34:03 So what am I going to do?
0:34:05 I’m going to have proper expectations.
0:34:12 You just measure reality with your timeline of life and go, I may not be able to do this,
0:34:16 this, this, this, this and this, but I can do this and this.
0:34:17 And I think that’s how you go.
0:34:18 All right.
0:34:23 The time I have left from this point on, I’m going to do something that matters to me.
0:34:25 And here’s what’s cool about this.
0:34:30 A hospice nurse in Australia wrote a bestselling book about the regrets of the dying.
0:34:34 And one of the top five was I didn’t live the life that I truly wanted to live.
0:34:40 And so I’m a guy that preaches reminiscing over regretting at 55 or 65, you still got
0:34:41 some time.
0:34:42 You can do it.
0:34:47 So that you can look back at least on a certain period of your life and go, I’m so glad that
0:34:50 I did that and not regret that you never took a shot.
0:34:52 And also doing it in a smart way.
0:34:57 For example, using your books and your assessments and things to make sure you know your strengths,
0:35:02 you know your passions, you know your mission and you know what is a likely path that you’ll
0:35:07 succeed at rather than sort of just going at it willy nilly without a plan.
0:35:09 So this is a great segue into some of your work.
0:35:14 So before we get into your new book, it’s called Get Clear Career Assessment.
0:35:16 I’d love to touch on some of your previous works.
0:35:20 In 2019, you wrote about the proximity principle.
0:35:24 And you say that can change everything people thought about they knew pursuing your career
0:35:25 that they love.
0:35:29 So what are my young and profiteers need to know about the proximity principle?
0:35:32 Yeah, we’ll start with what the principle is and then what it does.
0:35:37 The principle says this, in order to do what I want to do, you can fill in the blank there,
0:35:40 I’ve got to be around people that are doing it and in places where it is happening.
0:35:41 Young Holla did this.
0:35:44 She thought she wanted to be a singer.
0:35:45 So what did she do?
0:35:50 She went to the place where they were playing all the songs and it was a brilliant move,
0:35:51 right?
0:35:52 Now, your idea changed.
0:35:57 But again, what’s interesting is that you’ve also could have used the radio as that idea
0:35:59 of this is the right place.
0:36:04 So the proximity principle is about people in places, the right people plus the right
0:36:07 places equals opportunity.
0:36:11 In other words, if you’re constantly getting around the right people, people that are in
0:36:16 the space that you want to be in, or similar to the space that you think you want to be
0:36:21 in, that proximity is just there and I think your life is actually a wonderful example
0:36:22 of this.
0:36:24 And you talked about it earlier.
0:36:30 Because you were in proximity, you pointed it out, it wasn’t that big of a departure.
0:36:33 You are in fact a performer, you’re a top notch performer.
0:36:36 You may only sing for friends and family now.
0:36:37 By the way, I’d love to hear you sing.
0:36:38 I think the audience would too.
0:36:40 There might need to be a single coming out later.
0:36:43 But anyway, that’s my ADHD flaring up.
0:36:48 But I think that the issue here is if I understand that being around the right people is going
0:36:52 to allow me to meet more of the right people, being around the right people, they’re going
0:36:53 to point me to the right places.
0:36:56 I go to the right places, I see, I learn, I observe, oh, by the way, I connect with more
0:36:58 of the right people over here.
0:37:01 And so what you’ve got is if I were going to draw it up, it would be an arrow here,
0:37:03 an arrow here and we’d have the right people in the right places.
0:37:10 And it becomes this cyclical process of learning, doing, and connecting.
0:37:12 That’s what it spits out.
0:37:16 And that formula equals opportunity to where you do it right, how people will knock on
0:37:17 your door.
0:37:22 In fact, some of the coolest experiences I got in my career where I got huge opportunities
0:37:24 were because of proximity.
0:37:28 I was the second option, but they needed another option.
0:37:31 But the only reason they thought of me is because I was in the orbit, if you will.
0:37:35 So in order to do what I want to do, I got to be around people that are doing it in places
0:37:36 where it is happening.
0:37:41 In other words, if I’m around the right people and in the right places, the right time will
0:37:43 happen on its own.
0:37:45 Oh my gosh, I love that.
0:37:47 I love that concept so much.
0:37:52 I can think about my past experiences and I know that’s true, like figuring out podcasting,
0:37:56 it’s like going to all the podcast conferences, trying to get podcast mentors, taking calls
0:38:01 with every single podcast company and trying to understand what everybody does.
0:38:03 That’s how you become the top of your field.
0:38:06 I’m curious, can I flip it on you?
0:38:07 Yeah.
0:38:08 Because your audience loves you.
0:38:09 They’re here for you.
0:38:11 I’m just the guy guesting today.
0:38:15 I’m curious, how did the proximity principle play into your specific story where you actually
0:38:17 got the gig you got now?
0:38:22 Like it led to the show that’s rocking it and you had this meteoric growth.
0:38:25 I’m curious, what was your situation?
0:38:28 There’s so much that goes into it.
0:38:33 Just to your point, getting that job at Hot 97, I thought I was going to be a singer,
0:38:38 ended up learning the ropes of radio, took every opportunity that I could where if the
0:38:40 DJs wanted me to blog, I was blogging.
0:38:42 If they wanted me to come to a party, I was going to the party.
0:38:46 If they wanted me to sell showcase tickets and host a showcase, I was doing that.
0:38:53 So I was taking my opportunity B avenues is what I call them and getting all these experiences.
0:38:57 So I’m a type of person that isn’t afraid of going out on my own.
0:39:01 So I started a blog site, but I didn’t start it on my own.
0:39:04 I recruited other women that were in the entertainment industry.
0:39:10 So people who worked at Def Jam and IHAR and VH1 and then worked with them and learned
0:39:13 from them and started this blog site.
0:39:14 Then I went into corporate.
0:39:16 That’s the whole other story.
0:39:20 A ghost period of four years where I just didn’t think I was going to make it.
0:39:26 I got rejected from satellite radio, MTV, I almost had a show on MTV, so it was like
0:39:27 a dark period.
0:39:29 But then I started my podcast.
0:39:33 And when I started in the podcast industry, once I decided that I was going to really
0:39:37 do this, I just tried to learn from everyone.
0:39:40 So for example, Jordan Harbinger, who’s one of the biggest podcasters in the world, he’s
0:39:44 one of my best friends, he’s my podcast mentor, he came on my show.
0:39:48 And when he came on my show, I didn’t just leave it at that.
0:39:49 I was like, what can I do for you?
0:39:51 Can I write your commercials for you?
0:39:53 Can I show you how I’m growing my podcast?
0:39:57 Because he’s sort of old school and I was like this new school podcaster.
0:40:01 So I was trying to teach him stuff so he would give me the time of the day.
0:40:04 And then finally, he was, wow, like you’re really onto some stuff.
0:40:08 I’ll teach you how to grow your show the way that I know and you can teach me how to grow
0:40:10 your show the way that you know.
0:40:13 And I was just doing things for free to get him as a mentor.
0:40:18 So that was one of my first big breaks because he taught me all the secrets of growing shows
0:40:20 traditionally, right?
0:40:24 And then when I started my network, I literally started a podcast network, have never joined
0:40:28 a network, no idea how podcast networks work.
0:40:32 So I would just take all these calls with all these agencies and I would just act like
0:40:36 I knew what I was talking about, but try to investigate what the hell are they doing
0:40:42 and pieced it together, going to all these conferences and just trying to meet everybody
0:40:44 until I figured it all out to your point.
0:40:49 Because how do you just get in contact with people who know what they’re doing and work
0:40:54 for free for them, ask them lots of questions, do favors for them so that they help you
0:40:55 in return?
0:40:57 Hopefully, that was a good example.
0:41:00 That is the principle living it out.
0:41:03 Throughout the whole story, I could have just circled while you were talking, I could have
0:41:07 pressed pause and circled right people, like we’ve heard of Jordan was the right person.
0:41:12 These women from Def Jam and these massive companies, right people, showing up the podcast
0:41:13 got right places.
0:41:18 So, yeah, it’s a simple little idea and honestly, I didn’t expect the book to do as well as
0:41:19 it did.
0:41:22 I was just trying to simplify the climb.
0:41:26 If you just keep showing up around the right people in the right places, good stuff’s going
0:41:27 to happen.
0:41:28 It’s not romantic.
0:41:34 It’s just simple, but most people in today’s world, they want to fast forward everything
0:41:39 because we see a lot of unbelievable fast stories and those are rare.
0:41:45 Those are rare people because you look like a fast story because if you just look at your
0:41:51 bio, it’s like, so all these young women could look at you and go, that’s what I want to
0:41:52 do.
0:41:53 She did it.
0:41:54 I want to do it.
0:41:55 I can do it.
0:42:02 I’d go, okay, that’s true, but are you aware of what she did that’s not in the bio that
0:42:11 led to everything that she was able to stack together that then let her go like this?
0:42:15 The challenge for young people, and I was young once, okay, so I’m like the dad on this
0:42:16 podcast.
0:42:17 I don’t mind it.
0:42:18 You’re still young.
0:42:19 Thank you.
0:42:21 I’m older than you probably realize, but here’s what I want you to hear.
0:42:26 I was like the young, so this is not a knock on young people and I can’t stand when people
0:42:31 crap on the younger generations like millennials and Gen Z. It bothers me to know it.
0:42:37 Here’s the thing, the thing about being young is you don’t understand how long things take
0:42:42 and then you realize, wait a second, successful people, they’re willing to do what it takes
0:42:44 because a lot of you are going, I’ll do what it takes.
0:42:48 I’ll do what Holla did, okay, but you also waited as long as it took.
0:42:52 That doesn’t mean you were sitting around because waiting by the way is not a passive
0:42:54 posture.
0:42:55 It’s actually a mature posture.
0:42:58 In other words, you get up, you were busting at that radio station, you were going out
0:43:00 here doing this, hanging out.
0:43:06 I love that on this conversation you’ve mentioned work for free, I think five times, and I can’t
0:43:07 wait to interview you about that.
0:43:12 It’s going to be a huge theme because that is a very controversial position in the world
0:43:17 of TikTok because they’ve got a lot of snowflakes that freak out over that.
0:43:20 What they don’t understand is that Holla was willing to wait as long as it took.
0:43:27 In other words, she kept showing up, showing up, showing up, showing up, doing this, doing
0:43:33 that, meeting this, learning this, and waiting is an active posture.
0:43:37 It is, I’m going to keep showing up, doing what it takes, knowing that if I keep showing
0:43:39 up, the right time’s going to find me.
0:43:40 That’s your story.
0:43:42 It’s your story too.
0:43:43 Yeah.
0:43:48 Well, it’s every successful woman and man, every one of them, they don’t quit, they keep
0:43:49 showing up.
0:43:53 And then we look at their story and we go, “Oh, wow, right place, right time.”
0:43:54 Bull.
0:43:58 They were in the right place and then the right time found them.
0:44:02 So are you willing to do what it takes if I wait on the street with a camera crew?
0:44:03 They all, “Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, okay.”
0:44:06 I say, “Are you willing to wait as long as it takes?”
0:44:10 So that means, are you willing to show up for five years, seven years, nine years?
0:44:11 Not many people are.
0:44:12 Amazing.
0:44:14 Well, let’s talk about your 2021 release.
0:44:17 It was called Paycheck to Purpose, another bestseller.
0:44:21 And in it, you talked about talent, passion, and mission.
0:44:25 And this is a theme that even now you talk a lot about, talent, passion, mission.
0:44:30 So can you define those three words in your own words and tie it all together?
0:44:31 Yeah.
0:44:32 Talent is what we do best.
0:44:34 Passion is what we love to do most.
0:44:38 Mission is that result that we care deeply about putting into the world.
0:44:42 So if I use what I do best, talent, to do what I love passion, to produce results that
0:44:49 matter to me, mission, I am, by definition, on purpose, doing what I’m supposed to do.
0:44:51 Doing what I can uniquely do.
0:44:55 The reason I came up with that methodology is through coaching people and I was trying
0:44:58 to help them see there’s a formula here.
0:45:02 The answer to what should I do with my life lies in those three things.
0:45:03 What are you good at?
0:45:05 What do you enjoy doing?
0:45:06 What results move your heart?
0:45:07 Okay.
0:45:10 So for instance, an activist, their heart is angered.
0:45:16 Their heart is broken, angered by an atrocity, broken for the people that are the victims.
0:45:19 And so their heart moves them to that kind of work.
0:45:21 Your heart, my heart, probably very, very similar, right?
0:45:24 Our heart is about achievement and influence.
0:45:25 We want to help people.
0:45:28 We want to help people win here.
0:45:30 Mediocrity is our enemy.
0:45:34 And so when we understand that last piece, mission, the results that motivate me, we
0:45:37 tap into the magic of motivation.
0:45:41 So talent, those are the tools so that we can do work that we enjoy.
0:45:42 We love.
0:45:43 We look forward to the work.
0:45:46 When we get in it, when you were singing, when you were on the air, when we’re doing
0:45:52 this right now, you and I really, really enjoy this communication piece, this learning, this
0:45:53 digging.
0:45:54 How can I learn from?
0:45:55 How can I pass this on?
0:46:00 But the last piece is so important to understand intrinsic motivation, and that’s a sense
0:46:01 of mission.
0:46:02 We all have it.
0:46:05 In other words, person who gets up at 5 a.m. in the morning to work out does it only because
0:46:06 they want to.
0:46:10 My teenage boys, Hala, only clean their room because they have to.
0:46:11 Do you see the difference?
0:46:15 I say to them, you’re not going out with your friends this weekend into this bathroom, doesn’t
0:46:18 look like a crime scene.
0:46:19 Clean it up.
0:46:20 And what do they do?
0:46:24 And then they do it, but that’s extrinsic motivation.
0:46:29 They do it to avoid punishment or to get something they want that is going to be withheld from
0:46:30 them.
0:46:33 So the person who gets up for the reward itself just because they want to, that’s the idea.
0:46:35 So those are the three elements.
0:46:39 When we can see that about ourselves, that’s when we get true self-awareness.
0:46:44 We’ll be right back after a quick break from our sponsors.
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0:51:39 So your latest buckets.
0:51:43 What clear career assessment find the work that you’re wired to do.
0:51:47 You already put out two books about careers, so why did you feel the need to release this
0:51:49 new book?
0:51:50 Because this is actually just a manual.
0:51:56 It became a bestseller, but we actually wrote this to get the assessment on Amazon.
0:52:00 It was because I wanted to have more distribution because you can’t sell a digital product
0:52:01 on Amazon.
0:52:03 So kind of a fun lesson here.
0:52:05 You got to do what you got to do.
0:52:08 The assessment actually measures those three components.
0:52:09 So I’m glad you asked me that.
0:52:14 Paychecked a purpose was providing that seven stages of what it looks like to get on top
0:52:16 of your professional mountain.
0:52:19 And we do it all through getting clear as that first step.
0:52:23 Well, I developed an assessment because I wanted to give people a tool that in about
0:52:28 18 to 20 minutes, you could get a direct report of the world of talent.
0:52:29 This is your top three.
0:52:34 And then here’s where you’re above average in the world of passion, the types of work.
0:52:35 Here’s where your top three are.
0:52:36 Here’s where you’re above average.
0:52:42 In your mission results, there’s six driving missions from the world of psychology.
0:52:47 I just adopted that and it kind of tell you, this is your primary motivator.
0:52:50 And so you get a deep dive report in those three areas.
0:52:55 Then we put your top results in a purpose statement that is essentially like a job description
0:52:59 for you, a dream job description where you can lay it over the world of work and go,
0:53:05 does this career path, does this job allow me to spend most of my day, let’s call it
0:53:12 75% of my day using what I do best to do what I enjoy to produce results I care about.
0:53:14 That’s as simple as it gets.
0:53:17 And the assessment does that and it’s a fabulous tool.
0:53:18 It’s not a personality profile.
0:53:20 You notice I didn’t talk about personality.
0:53:24 It’s not going to predict some career for you because that’s crap junk science.
0:53:25 Can’t do that.
0:53:26 No assessment can.
0:53:29 But what it does is give you self-awareness.
0:53:34 And self-awareness is a superpower because when I can see who I really am and what I
0:53:41 have to offer to the world, that clarity will lead to confidence and confidence will give
0:53:46 you courage when you step out and life throws something at you.
0:53:49 Courage just isn’t this thing that we can will up.
0:53:52 It must come from a place of clarity and confidence.
0:53:55 And so that’s why we created the tool, the book itself.
0:54:00 It’s about a 45 minute read and all it does is catches you right at your assessment results
0:54:01 to get clear assessment.
0:54:02 It will give you what I just described.
0:54:04 And the book is written as though I’m coaching you.
0:54:10 So how do we take this purpose statement and start to ideate, well, what can I do professionally?
0:54:11 Is it medicine?
0:54:13 And so we pick up at those questions I gave you earlier.
0:54:16 People I want to help, problem or desire they have.
0:54:19 So that the little book is more of a companion to the assessment.
0:54:20 So that’s why we wrote it.
0:54:23 Honestly, didn’t expect it to be a best seller.
0:54:24 Just wanted to get the tool out.
0:54:29 So here we stand and I’m getting an opportunity to talk about what I think is life changing
0:54:32 methodology because it’s just self awareness.
0:54:36 And here’s what I would say to young people, everybody’s chasing greatness.
0:54:38 And I think it’s misguided.
0:54:44 I want you to chase uniqueness because it is in your uniqueness that your greatness lies
0:54:46 because it’s your contribution.
0:54:50 This is so good for anybody who’s thinking about making a career change.
0:54:54 So again, I think one of the biggest fears is, oh, I don’t want to waste more time.
0:55:00 Well, you stop wasting time by having a plan and having self awareness and thinking through
0:55:03 things and not just shooting in the dark, right?
0:55:05 So I highly recommend this for everyone.
0:55:08 But this is an actionable advice podcast.
0:55:12 So what are some questions that people can ask themselves to understand what their core
0:55:14 talents are?
0:55:16 What have people always complimented me on?
0:55:19 How do I wow others?
0:55:23 Let’s just hit the rewind button and ask those very practical questions because there’s
0:55:24 evidence.
0:55:25 I want to recognize something.
0:55:30 For people who have had a lot of trauma in a really tough life, this will take some time
0:55:32 to keep asking.
0:55:38 But for most of us who’ve had a relatively healthy life and not overwhelmed by challenge,
0:55:40 there’s going to be multiple times where you can pull up answers.
0:55:45 How I wow others, what people say about me when they compliment me.
0:55:47 These are basic questions that will reveal right away.
0:55:49 Oh, well, there’s a pattern here.
0:55:52 And something that I love in this book that you talk about is super talents, which is
0:55:54 something that I’ve never heard of.
0:55:57 So what’s the difference between a talent and a super talent?
0:56:01 Super talents are the things that I’m excellent at, just absolutely through experience or
0:56:04 education or just pure nature.
0:56:05 I’m excellent.
0:56:07 I mean, I’m up here.
0:56:09 And that’s what we give in the assessment, your top three.
0:56:11 We call those your super talents.
0:56:13 Now that indicates that below that are some solid talents.
0:56:18 Let’s use a simple analogy, one being suck, ten being great.
0:56:22 If you were an eight or nine or a ten, I’d call that a super talent.
0:56:26 If you are a six or a seven, I’d call that a solid talent.
0:56:31 In the form of if I get more education, more experience, I put some hard work in and I
0:56:34 really hone my craft, then I can become super.
0:56:36 I’ll just be real personal.
0:56:38 So in the wide world, I write books.
0:56:40 I write articles.
0:56:42 I give keynotes.
0:56:46 I do monologues on a show every day.
0:56:50 I coach people live in front of thousands of people, just me and a mic.
0:56:54 And it’s kind of just whoo, you know, or I’m on the air and I got eight minutes.
0:56:55 So that’s what I do.
0:57:01 Of those things that I do in my super talents, it would be the discernment and coaching piece.
0:57:04 When I’m on the spot and I’m listening to somebody, I’m asking and digging.
0:57:06 I’m really, really good at that.
0:57:09 The other thing that is a super talent for me is the actual interview themselves, you
0:57:12 know, when I’m interviewing people and pulling stuff out of them.
0:57:18 If I’m honest and I am, and by the way, I get feedback from my team, my solid talent
0:57:20 on that list is the keynote.
0:57:21 I’m good.
0:57:22 I’m a good speaker.
0:57:23 I’m not great.
0:57:26 I’m working to become great.
0:57:28 And that’s my own analysis and also feedback.
0:57:31 I think you’ve got to be honest about that.
0:57:33 Writing, same deal.
0:57:36 Good writer, not a great writer.
0:57:38 So that’s the difference between a super talent.
0:57:41 Now I can get better at the speaking and have.
0:57:44 And I can get better at writing and I have, but I still got more work to do.
0:57:49 Whereas the other ones, just from my natural talent and I’ve had more time, I’ve got more
0:57:54 experience than the other two with the interviews and coaching people than I did with the speaking
0:57:55 and writing.
0:57:56 So what do you do?
0:58:00 You get better at it, but then you also hire really good editors.
0:58:04 So that I can take what I’m good at, which is a monologue.
0:58:06 By the way, I’m better at monologues than I am a 40 minute keynote.
0:58:09 I’m better at the quick, here’s three points.
0:58:12 So you go, okay, I need help over here with the writing.
0:58:17 So I’m going to go hire really talented writers to edit my stuff and coach me and say, you’re
0:58:19 missing this here.
0:58:20 You’re not weaving this in.
0:58:21 This needs a story.
0:58:27 This is a little too kind of nebulous, kind of out that you need to simplify this for
0:58:30 the reader because I can’t do that for myself.
0:58:31 So I hope that answers your question.
0:58:34 I think that’s the difference and in my own life.
0:58:36 So I got to pay attention to that.
0:58:37 Yeah, totally.
0:58:40 It sounds like you’re not focusing on your weaknesses at all.
0:58:45 It sounds like you’re just trying to strengthen your talents and your super talents.
0:58:47 And are you focused on your weaknesses at all?
0:58:51 Only to the fact that when we have a new team member join, like we just got a new associate
0:58:53 producer on my team and she’s awesome.
0:58:59 And on our first meeting, I spent 10 minutes trashing everything that I do that’s awful.
0:59:01 And she was laughing and she really enjoyed it.
0:59:02 And it did two things.
0:59:05 Number one, it let her know that I’m aware of these things that I suck at.
0:59:10 Being on time, details, can’t ever find my own keys in my house.
0:59:11 God bless my wife.
0:59:12 I’m really open about it.
0:59:15 So I’m only focused on it to tell everybody that I work with.
0:59:18 Number one, I’m weak in this area.
0:59:20 Number two, I’m aware of it.
0:59:24 And number three, in order for us to work well, both of us need to be aware of this.
0:59:29 And the reason that you’re hired is because you’re actually strong where I am weak.
0:59:33 So understand our job as a team for each other, not just for Ken.
0:59:35 This isn’t all about Ken.
0:59:38 All of us have got to say, this is where I’m weak.
0:59:41 And to the extent that we remove stuff off of our plate and move it to someone else’s
0:59:45 plate, we delegate, we hire for it, or we eliminate it all together.
0:59:49 So yes, I’m not focused on it, but I’m super aware of my weaknesses.
0:59:54 And my life, by the way, is organized.
0:59:59 I use that loosely because I’m not very organized, but my life is structured probably in a way.
1:00:04 And I’ve got team where, again, I operate in my strengths all day long, which is really,
1:00:05 really rewarding.
1:00:06 That’s the goal.
1:00:07 And it’s freeing.
1:00:10 By the way, it’s freeing to just go, I suck at this because, by the way, your team already
1:00:11 knows.
1:00:15 By the way, it’s because you focus on your strengths to become the top of your field,
1:00:19 so you could get a team to help you with everything else.
1:00:20 That’s a great point.
1:00:21 That’s the beauty.
1:00:23 In Western, I don’t know what, and I’m going to bang on the Western Hemisphere because
1:00:26 I’m a Western Hemisphere product, so I can make fun of it.
1:00:28 I don’t see this in the Eastern Hemisphere.
1:00:29 I really don’t.
1:00:31 This is a Western way of thinking.
1:00:34 And I’m not trying to philosophize, just hang with me, folks.
1:00:39 With Western thinking is we go to school from kindergarten through 12th grade and then
1:00:42 it’s college, and it’s largely the same system.
1:00:46 We memorize and we regurgitate, and they grade us on what we get wrong.
1:00:51 So your whole life, you’ve been conditioned to be afraid of getting anything wrong.
1:00:54 So what happens is that translates to your weaknesses.
1:00:59 You experience a weakness as you begin to go to school, or you try out for an extracurricular
1:01:01 activity, and you begin to experience weakness.
1:01:04 You go, “Oh, I got to fix that weakness,” instead of going, “I suck at playing the
1:01:05 clarinet.
1:01:07 I should probably not play the clarinet.”
1:01:08 So true.
1:01:09 So true.
1:01:10 Do you know what I mean?
1:01:13 But we’ve been conditioned by a Western thinking to work on your weaknesses.
1:01:15 And here’s what’s crazy.
1:01:17 That’s not a thing in the real world of work.
1:01:19 I don’t care what hemisphere you’re in.
1:01:20 So good.
1:01:24 Let’s go a little bit broader and talk about the jobs economy in general.
1:01:28 And also for some of the entrepreneurs and business owners who listen to the show, I’d
1:01:33 love to understand how we can translate some of this into empowering our employees.
1:01:34 So first off, I got to talk about AI.
1:01:41 I’ve been doing so many AI episodes lately, and a topic that keeps coming up is AI and
1:01:42 jobs.
1:01:46 So how do you think about AI’s impact on jobs and what people need to think about?
1:01:54 I don’t think AI is going to change jobs any more than Apple change jobs, or pick another
1:01:55 technology.
1:01:56 Right?
1:01:57 It’s just the internet.
1:02:04 If you think about it, anytime in our history where we’ve had a major technological advancement,
1:02:06 is it eliminated some jobs?
1:02:07 Yeah.
1:02:08 Some.
1:02:09 But what did it do?
1:02:10 It spun off more.
1:02:17 And so I actually think that AI is going to spin off jobs that you and I can’t even imagine
1:02:19 and create in our heads right now.
1:02:24 I think the job market that my 15-year-old daughter is going to experience, we don’t
1:02:25 even know.
1:02:26 We can’t even describe it.
1:02:28 So I’m not afraid of AI.
1:02:29 I would say this.
1:02:32 I’ve talked to Chris Doe, who I think is one of the great minds on AI.
1:02:34 I had him on my show.
1:02:35 I just asked him.
1:02:36 I’ll tell you what he told me.
1:02:42 He said, “We can’t forget that AI’s effectiveness is completely predicated on the human who
1:02:43 programs it.”
1:02:49 So AI’s ability to do anything is based on a human programming it to do that thing.
1:02:56 And I think that I’m less concerned about AI replacing your job.
1:03:01 I’d be more concerned about a person who works really well with AI replacing your job.
1:03:03 I still think it’s the human component.
1:03:07 So for instance, I do believe the experts that say you’re going to see a pretty good
1:03:12 percentage of clerical jobs maybe go away, because they can program AI to do all the
1:03:13 customer service.
1:03:17 And we’re already seeing in the hiring process where there’s AI software where a human’s
1:03:22 not even involved sometimes, even to the second or third level of a job interview.
1:03:24 So is it going to create efficiencies?
1:03:27 Yes, but you will still need the human-to-human contact.
1:03:30 So I’m not scared of AI from a work standpoint.
1:03:35 AI as it relates to warfare, that freaks me out, but that’s not what we’re here to talk
1:03:36 about.
1:03:37 But that freaks me out.
1:03:41 AI in the world of work, no, it’s not going to be a bunch of machines doing the work and
1:03:42 the rest of us are sitting around eating Cheetos.
1:03:44 I don’t think that’s going to happen.
1:03:45 Yeah.
1:03:46 I think your internet example was so good.
1:03:51 If I think about my job now, it’s literally 100% based on the internet.
1:03:52 There’s nothing else.
1:03:55 I don’t even have any like office or anything.
1:03:56 It’s just so good.
1:03:57 Okay.
1:03:59 Let’s talk about companies and employers.
1:04:00 So something that I’ve noticed.
1:04:02 I have 60 people on my team now.
1:04:07 I’ve been running my company for four years and some of the rock stars that I had in my
1:04:12 company that used to be rock stars, and I love them still, they’re still great, but
1:04:14 just giving it as an example.
1:04:20 Star players four years ago, four years later, as we’ve grown so much as a company, I feel
1:04:26 like they’re struggling to stay developed, evolve with the company.
1:04:30 I see some star players that two years ago strongest players on the team.
1:04:34 Now I’m like, oh, you guys are struggling suddenly and you’re not keeping up.
1:04:39 How can we develop our employees and help them develop their strengths and skills?
1:04:42 What can we be doing as bosses?
1:04:43 Really good question.
1:04:46 Let me give a quick context and then maybe dive in the specifics.
1:04:49 I may ask you a couple of questions to fully answer this.
1:04:54 First we got to understand as leaders and founders specifically that there are a good
1:04:59 amount of people who got you there who won’t get you to the next level.
1:05:05 It is very natural for companies to outgrow some of the key people who actually were fundamental
1:05:10 in getting them to the certain spot, but this comes back to again, talent, passion, mission.
1:05:14 If you look at the wiring of some of these people that may be struggling with you now
1:05:18 that didn’t struggle back here, some of it could be fit.
1:05:24 So as the leader, you got to go, is this a fit issue to the point that there’s another
1:05:29 seat and I need to get them on another seat where they are now able to plug into the new
1:05:37 version of our company or do they simply just not have the right makeup for where the company
1:05:39 is and where the company is going to go?
1:05:42 That would be from an executive and a leadership analysis.
1:05:46 That’s my practical advice and you got to be okay and sometimes this really sucks.
1:05:50 I mean, I’ve coached a lot of CEOs on this who I have to say, look, they don’t have it.
1:05:54 They can’t take you where you want to go.
1:05:56 Silly example to try to drive this home.
1:05:57 I’m big into sports, right?
1:06:02 So it’s like a college football coach comes in and he’s replacing another coach who left
1:06:06 and that coach ran a very different style of offense.
1:06:07 So they had different kind of players.
1:06:11 Maybe they were run based, big guys and it was like a power offense and this guy comes
1:06:14 in and goes, we throw the ball all the time.
1:06:16 So those first couple of years, you know what he’s got to do?
1:06:21 He’s got to go, which one of these kids can stay with me and adapt?
1:06:25 And if they can’t, I got to let them go and I got to go recruit other players.
1:06:28 That’s the simple metaphor there that I think is the issue.
1:06:33 To answer the second part of your question quickly, how do we develop our people?
1:06:36 Well, number one, you got to know them.
1:06:39 And I really like this methodology that I’ve shared.
1:06:42 We were talking about people trying to find their career, but from a leader standpoint,
1:06:47 knowing what someone’s talents are, knowing what their passions are, knowing what their
1:06:53 motivating mission is, you kind of got yourself a profile here, then you go, okay, where can
1:06:57 they grow and let’s look at their solid talents and let’s show them, hey, I want to invest
1:06:58 in you.
1:06:59 All right?
1:07:01 I’d like to see you invest in yourself here.
1:07:05 This is where you’ve got some solid talents, but I think with some learning and doing,
1:07:08 you can turn these into super talents.
1:07:09 That’s the idea.
1:07:11 Constant communication so that they have awareness.
1:07:14 We also know that you care about them and you want them to get better because when they
1:07:18 get better, their paycheck gets bigger, at least it should in a healthy company.
1:07:19 So that’s the idea.
1:07:24 It’s a really smart thing to do as well, because if you find out that maybe there isn’t a place
1:07:29 in your company now, it’s the best thing for them to go to a company where they will thrive,
1:07:33 part of being a boss is understanding that people aren’t going to work for you forever,
1:07:35 and you can help guide them in their career.
1:07:41 Okay, so last question, two-part question, and then we’ll round this interview out.
1:07:47 What do you feel like are going to be the biggest challenges for employers when it comes to
1:07:51 the workplace, and also what are the biggest opportunities?
1:07:55 Biggest challenge is retention.
1:08:00 We just are in a day and age coming out of the pandemic where we saw so many people job
1:08:01 hop.
1:08:04 There’s this tension in the workplace right now between coming back to work or actually
1:08:08 back to pre-pandemic levels on people working in the office.
1:08:11 So those numbers have shrunk back and said there’s this tension because a lot of people
1:08:16 still want to work remote, remote’s drying up as a percentage.
1:08:17 Hybrid is still there.
1:08:21 I think hybrid will be the dominant model going forward, but we’re in this weird tension.
1:08:24 So retention is everything to your point.
1:08:28 People aren’t going to stay with you forever, but to the extent that we can keep good people
1:08:33 longer, then we’re going to see productivity and profitability go, and that’s the key to
1:08:37 winning, and that’s the competitive advantage is people keeping good people longer.
1:08:39 The opportunity there is engagement.
1:08:45 The single most important factor to retention is engagement.
1:08:49 If people don’t want to be there, they won’t want to lead there.
1:08:52 So you’re hoping to develop leaders from within, doesn’t mean you have to, you can recruit
1:08:57 from outside, but we want to create a culture where people want to be there, and people
1:09:00 want to be there if they aren’t engaged.
1:09:01 What does engagement look like?
1:09:04 Well, I hate to keep saying the same note, but it’s true.
1:09:09 They need to be spending three, fours of their day using what they do best to do what they
1:09:12 enjoy to produce results that matter.
1:09:15 It’s your job to get them in a seat on the bus where that’s the case.
1:09:17 Here’s what’s going to happen.
1:09:20 They’re going to be really, really engaged because they’re going to enjoy it.
1:09:21 Think about that.
1:09:22 That’s not a bad day.
1:09:25 So that’s what keeps them coming back because there’s true fulfillment.
1:09:29 Oh, by the way, there’s proficiency because they’re good at it, and the fulfillment comes
1:09:33 in with the love of the work and the work creates a result that they care about.
1:09:37 Now, after that, you’ve got to care for them.
1:09:40 Two questions you’re asking every week in a one-on-one.
1:09:42 How are you doing?
1:09:43 That’s a personal thing.
1:09:45 “Hala, I know your dog’s been struggling.
1:09:46 That’s got to be tough.
1:09:48 Is she going to make it?”
1:09:51 You know, whatever’s going on in their personal life, know enough about them where they go.
1:09:52 “Do you need to take a day?
1:09:53 Take a day.
1:09:55 Go be with the sweet pup.”
1:09:56 That’s real leadership.
1:09:57 How are you doing?
1:09:58 It’s a personal question.
1:10:01 Now, they’re not going to give you that right away, but you ask it enough and you show them
1:10:04 that you care about them and they begin to tell you what’s going on, and for the purposes
1:10:08 of not creeping or overstepping, but just they know that you care about them and you’ll
1:10:13 give them what they need as a person so they’re not dragging stress from home into the office.
1:10:14 That’s key.
1:10:18 Second question is, “What can I do to help you win in your job?
1:10:21 What can I do for you so you can win?”
1:10:25 That second question, they’ll begin to tell you that the more you ask the first question,
1:10:30 because until they know you care, they won’t trust you enough to go, “Well, I don’t feel
1:10:32 like my training was long enough and I’m struggling here.
1:10:37 If I got a little bit more training on that, I could turn the corner and I could crush
1:10:38 it.”
1:10:40 That’s a really tough thing for people to share that’s a vulnerability.
1:10:45 I think that right there is where you can get engagement because then people are saying,
1:10:47 “I’m cared for here.
1:10:48 I’m valued here.
1:10:51 I don’t know if I’d get treated that way somewhere else.”
1:10:57 That will lead to that loyalty and the longevity, which is what we want in engagement.
1:10:59 I think that’s the game changer.
1:11:01 I love all of this advice.
1:11:03 You gave me so much to think about for my own company.
1:11:07 I feel like all the things that you told me about just how other people need to think
1:11:12 about their career for me and other entrepreneurs listening, I feel like probably was super,
1:11:13 super insightful.
1:11:15 Thank you so much for all of that.
1:11:18 I end my show with two questions that I ask all my guests.
1:11:20 You can steer away from the topic.
1:11:22 It doesn’t have to be about today’s topic.
1:11:23 Just answer from your heart.
1:11:28 The first one is, “What is one actionable thing our young and profitors can do today
1:11:30 to become more profitable tomorrow?”
1:11:35 Reflect at the end of every day on two questions.
1:11:39 Where did I win and where did I lose?
1:11:40 So good.
1:11:41 That sets you up for tomorrow.
1:11:47 Just really being present enough to go, “What did I learn today about where I won and where
1:11:48 I lost?”
1:11:51 I think it’s a game changer.
1:11:57 What is your secret to profiting in life and this can go beyond just money and business?
1:12:01 Being the best version of me and I’ve got multiple versions.
1:12:07 I’ve got husband, dad, son, brother, friend, co-worker.
1:12:14 If I can continually look to where can I be better in each of those roles, I’m truly profiting.
1:12:15 Ken, you are awesome.
1:12:17 I had so much fun in this conversation.
1:12:18 You are so smart.
1:12:20 You’re so energetic.
1:12:22 It was such a pleasure to interview you.
1:12:25 Where can everybody go learn more about you and everything that you do?
1:12:26 Thank you.
1:12:30 Iconicom is the place to connect on all the things and really appreciate you and what
1:12:32 you’re doing.
1:12:38 You’re a bright star and you’re a big screw you to all the people who said millennials.
1:12:41 They were the generation that was going to be soft on all this and millennials are the
1:12:45 number one demographic in the workforce now and you represent them well and you’re crushing
1:12:46 it.
1:12:50 You’re leading and our economy depends on your generation and I’m cheering you on.
1:12:52 Oh, thank you so much.
1:12:58 Thanks so much for joining us.
1:12:59 Well, yeah, bam.
1:13:05 That was probably one of my favorite conversations of the year because Ken just had such a great
1:13:08 energy and I feel like we had great chemistry.
1:13:14 And I hope you got a lot out of my conversation with Ken Coleman because so many of us go
1:13:20 through that period, especially in our 20s and even our 30s or 40s.
1:13:25 It doesn’t really matter how old you are, but you feel discouraged and confused about
1:13:33 what you want to exactly do with your life and you’re never ever too old to make a change.
1:13:38 This point in your life can happen where you feel that deep feeling of loss that Ken talked
1:13:43 about, the feeling like you’re wasting your life or doing the wrong thing.
1:13:44 Nothing matters.
1:13:48 You have no passion, no purpose and it’s a horrible feeling.
1:13:50 I was there.
1:13:56 I was there having that feeling before I started this podcast, but it’s never too late to
1:13:57 turn that page.
1:14:02 And sometimes you don’t have to turn that page all that far to get started.
1:14:07 Remember, you can get an enormous benefit from even just a slight pivot from leaning
1:14:13 into something a little bit different from pursuing an interest or a talent in a slightly
1:14:14 new direction.
1:14:22 I know I felt the power of that slight pivot when I shifted from singing to radio to podcasting.
1:14:25 And maybe it’s not a pivot that you need.
1:14:28 Maybe it’s just some life experiences.
1:14:31 Go out there and experiment.
1:14:33 Find out what you really like to do.
1:14:37 Work for free if you have to, even if you don’t have to.
1:14:41 It will pay off in the long run and I promise you that there’s no better way to discover
1:14:47 your own talents or even your super talents as Ken calls them.
1:14:51 And so for example, guys, I’m running a multi-million dollar company right now, but I work for
1:14:53 free all the time.
1:14:56 One way that I work for free is I started a charity project.
1:15:02 I have a volunteer organization where we’re working on a documentary series that I hope
1:15:04 to announce soon.
1:15:06 And it’s something I’ve never done before.
1:15:08 I’ve never done documentaries.
1:15:09 It’s all these new learnings.
1:15:10 We’re working together.
1:15:15 We’re bonding and I’m learning so many different skills.
1:15:18 It’s just a slight pivot from what I’m doing, but I’m learning new skills.
1:15:19 And guess what?
1:15:20 I’m not making a dime.
1:15:23 I’m just getting the experience.
1:15:28 Another way that I work for free now is I take speaking engagements.
1:15:32 And if it makes sense, they’re going to fly me out on a big stage, but they say, “Hey,
1:15:35 Hala, it’s going to be a thousand people in the room and your name is going to be on
1:15:36 that stage.”
1:15:39 And it’s great experience, but we can’t pay you.
1:15:41 We don’t have a budget to pay you.
1:15:46 Right now, I’m okay to say yes, because I’m not the number one speaker in the world.
1:15:48 I don’t have all this experience.
1:15:51 I’m still growing my experience.
1:15:55 And so it’s enough for me to get flown out right now if it’s a big enough stage.
1:15:57 And I want to just rack up those experiences.
1:15:58 I want to get the footage.
1:16:05 I want to feel confident because when you figure out your talents and you use your experiences
1:16:10 paid and free to sharpen them, this builds confidence.
1:16:13 And confidence is truly everything in business.
1:16:18 And part of being confident, like Ken said, is to also be able to say, “I suck at this
1:16:19 particular thing.
1:16:21 I suck at it.
1:16:26 I’m not good at this, and it’s okay to not focus on what you’re not good at.
1:16:28 You’re not going to be good at everything.
1:16:31 For example, I’m really good at making money.
1:16:32 I’m really good at innovating.
1:16:34 I’m really good at marketing.
1:16:39 But I’m not that really good and I’m not passionate about tracking all of it and figuring out
1:16:42 finances and figuring out the books.
1:16:43 I don’t want to do that.
1:16:50 I have a CFO who does that, a business partner who does that because I know that if I focused
1:16:57 on those skills, I would be taken away from making my super talents like selling, marketing
1:17:00 and all that kind of stuff even better.
1:17:04 And it’s better for my company for me to get better at the things I’m already good
1:17:05 at.
1:17:09 So lean into the things that you can do and get help when it comes to those things that
1:17:10 you can’t.
1:17:14 Thanks for listening to this episode of Young and Profiting Podcast.
1:17:19 I’d love for you to take a slight pivot right now instead of turning this podcast off right
1:17:25 away or skipping to the next episode, please take a couple minutes and write us a five-star
1:17:30 review on Apple podcast or Spotify or wherever you listen, Cast Box.
1:17:33 I know I have so many listeners on Cast Box.
1:17:36 Please take a moment, write us a review, write us a comment.
1:17:39 I would love to hear your feedback.
1:17:43 I read our reviews every day and I’m so thankful for the thousands of reviews that we have
1:17:45 on this podcast.
1:17:49 And if you want to watch your podcasts on YouTube, you can find us there.
1:17:54 One thing to note is that I’m moving to an in-person studio setup later this summer.
1:17:56 I’m so excited for that.
1:18:00 I feel like it’s going to level up our whole YouTube experience and I think it’s going
1:18:04 to really grow the podcast and I’m just so excited about that.
1:18:10 So cross your fingers for me and say a prayer that I find the perfect studio in Manhattan.
1:18:15 And if you’re looking for me, you can find me on Instagram @yapithala or LinkedIn by
1:18:16 searching my name.
1:18:17 It’s Hala Taha.
1:18:32 This is your host, Hala Taha, aka The Podcast Princess, signing off.
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