AI transcript
0:00:04 A lot of people think personal branding is about self-promotion. Look at me. I did things. I know
0:00:08 things. I’m doing this and that. I’m like, no, it’s not about promoting yourself. It’s about
0:00:15 promoting your ideas and your thought leadership and your expertise. I am 100% convinced that
0:00:20 everybody in this world, from my niece and nephew to any executive I’ve ever met, has something of
0:00:24 value that’s unique to them that they can offer the world. And so it’s not about self-promotion.
0:00:29 It’s about idea promotion, about your ideas and your lived experiences.
0:00:41 I’m Guy Kawasaki. This is the Remarkable People podcast. And we have someone who is truly
0:00:47 remarkable today. I enjoyed reading her book a great deal. Her name is Maha Abu-Ella Nain,
0:00:53 and she’s the CEO and founder of Digital and Savvy. She’s basically a communications and
0:01:00 branding maven. And her track record includes some amazing companies like Weber Shanwick and Google
0:01:07 and General Mills. And you are going to love this session. So Maha, welcome to Remarkable People.
0:01:12 Thank you. Thank you so much for having me, Guy. I love the show. I’ve been actually an avid
0:01:15 listener for a very long time. So it’s a full circle moment to be on the show.
0:01:17 You say that to everybody.
0:01:25 You know, Maha, I was reading your book and I kept thinking, where has Maha been my whole life? How
0:01:33 come I didn’t know about her till two days ago? Your book is truly enjoyable to read. And I love
0:01:40 that it’s so well organized. And there’s some OCD to my personality. And it’s like perfectly lined up.
0:01:46 I just loved it. So thank you. I’m so grateful that you spent time with it and read it. It’s been
0:01:51 a labor of love. It’s something I’ve always wanted to write a book. And I give practical advice, but a
0:01:57 lot of my personal story in it as well. It is definitely a lot of personal stories. And I think
0:02:02 that adds a lot. We’re just gonna dive in. All right. So I know that you’re in Minnesota right now,
0:02:11 right? I am. So this is a book that is like Dubai, UAE, Egypt, Minnesota, New York. It’s all over the
0:02:18 world. So can you just give us the gist of your story? How we start in Minnesota and go to Egypt
0:02:23 and come back and all that. Yes. So I am born and raised in a very small town called Mankato,
0:02:29 Minnesota. Think Laura Ingalls Wilder and Little House on the Prairie. That’s how small town I grew up
0:02:35 in a small town in Minnesota. I lived in the U.S. until I was 27. I worked at General Mills doing
0:02:40 sports marketing and did communications at Weber Shanwick. And when I was 27, my mother, who had
0:02:44 MS for a very long time, her and my dad, who had lived here and gone to school and just ended up
0:02:49 staying 40 years, decided they’re going to go back to Egypt where they’re from. And I had been to Egypt
0:02:54 on vacations and all this kind of stuff, but I never lived there and I don’t speak the language. I don’t
0:03:02 have any friends. So at 27, I moved back to Egypt with my parents at 27 and have to find a job and
0:03:07 start over in my life and make new friends and build a network. And I couldn’t find a job really. I
0:03:13 wanted to work at an American company like a Coke, a Pepsi, a Unilever, a P&G. But I ended up getting
0:03:19 offered to be the secretary of a billionaire, which I can tell you story is a job I didn’t want to take.
0:03:23 But my dad gave me some advice and said, you just moved here. You don’t know anybody. You should
0:03:28 take this role. I took the role. It changed my life. I went on to have an incredible career.
0:03:33 I worked for this billionaire as a secretary and as his business partner, went and built Weber
0:03:38 Shanwick PR firm in the Middle East, 18 offices, became the head of communications and public policy
0:03:44 at Google, launched Netflix in the Middle East, worked for the rural of Dubai. And in 2020, I’m 50 years
0:03:51 old. Pandemic hits. It’s COVID. I see a story that they might close the airports. I thought I might
0:03:58 not see my family again. And in 24 hours after living overseas for 23 years, I moved back to
0:04:03 Minnesota in 2020 at 50 years old to rebuild myself again.
0:04:11 In that story of the 24 hours, I don’t know how you got all the stuff for your dog. I can understand
0:04:15 packing. I can understand getting the airline reservation. I can understand the movers. I do
0:04:20 not understand how you got everything for your dog. Yeah. So when you leave the country, you have to get
0:04:25 export papers and the Ministry of the Veterinary Services has to approve it. And you have to find an
0:04:31 airline that will take a dog. The pandemic had changed everything. Yeah. I mean, it was a 24 hours of
0:04:38 the stars aligned. I really felt, Guy, if it was meant to be, it will all happen for me and God will
0:04:44 make everything work in my favor. And it did. Like I found a flight. I got the movers to come. I got my
0:04:51 dog’s export papers. And I was home hours before the world shut down. Yeah. By the way, did you play
0:04:57 hockey as a kid in Minnesota? I didn’t. I skated. My parents used to send us to the ice skating rink
0:05:01 for as a babysitter for like four hours. They’re like, drop the girls off to go ice skating.
0:05:03 But I didn’t play hockey.
0:05:05 Oh, I’m disappointed in that.
0:05:08 I know. I know. It’s you. You do that in surfing.
0:05:15 Yeah. Well, I didn’t surf as a kid either. So you mentioned that you were a secretary for your
0:05:21 billionaire. And I have to tell you, there’s another story in our podcast about someone who started off
0:05:32 as a secretary. And you will love this because that’s what happened to Jane Goodall. Jane Goodall
0:05:37 started as a secretary. So like people are listening and say, don’t be proud. I think
0:05:42 one of the pieces of wisdom that you offered in your book is it’s not what you’re doing. It’s who
0:05:47 you’re working with. Yeah. And it’s how you do it. It’s not what you do. It’s how you do it. So how could
0:05:53 I take that role working for that billionaire as a secretary? I’m like, I have to bring value. I have
0:05:59 to learn how to network. I have to learn to put my head down and just be a student and just do what
0:06:05 he wants first and deliver. And if I perform, then I can ask for other opportunities. But I have to do
0:06:10 what I was asked to do first and be put my head down and just put in the hard work and let that speak
0:06:18 for itself. I cannot imagine that in Mankato, Minnesota or something, this brown Egyptian girl
0:06:24 was accepted by all the Scandahoovians. And then you go to Egypt and you’re an American. You don’t
0:06:29 really speak the language. You were like, neither here, they’re there. Yeah. So when I was in Minnesota,
0:06:35 I was the only brown girl in my class. Like I have a very long last name. I’m Egyptian in heritage. So I’m
0:06:41 brown hair and everyone is blue eyed and blonde hair. I didn’t fit in. And I really wanted to fit
0:06:45 in. I felt like, you know, when walk like an Egyptian came out, everyone at school was doing
0:06:50 this to me. And I thought my life was over. And then when I moved to Egypt, I am Egyptian. I look
0:06:54 Egyptian. My name is Egyptian. But the minute I started talking, they’re like, oh, where’d you go
0:06:59 to school? You are so American. You don’t dress like us. You don’t look like us. You don’t talk like us.
0:07:06 You’re like, so I was never fitting in nor here, nor there. And I really learned how to take my
0:07:11 differences and made me stand out and make that what was special about me, make that my secret weapon,
0:07:16 even though for the longest time, it was a thing that I hated because I wasn’t fitting in.
0:07:24 So basically, as you say that your struggles help you become self-reliant, right?
0:07:28 Yes. The concept of self-reliance, when people see the book, they’re like, oh, she’s teaching us how to be
0:07:33 independent. That’s not what it is at all. I’m like, it’s empowering. What is it that you can rely
0:07:39 on yourself to do first before you ask for help? Like, I need to rely on myself to know how to build
0:07:43 my own relationships. I don’t need to say, hey, guy, those relationships that you’ve built up over
0:07:49 the years at all your incredible career, can I have those for something that I need? I want to rely on
0:07:55 myself to know how to do that. That’s a skill to network and keep relationships. That’s what I mean by
0:08:04 self-reliance. I almost hesitate to ask you this, but can we take a little sidetrack and relate to
0:08:12 what’s happening right now in terms of self-reliance? Because superficially, very superficially,
0:08:20 you could make the case that Trump and Musk are all about self-reliance, right? That America should be
0:08:26 independent and great and self-reliant and not dependent on anybody and all that. And when I
0:08:30 first saw the book, I said, oh man, this is going to be about that kind of stuff. But I think it’s
0:08:35 actually the opposite of what they’re doing. It’s the opposite. Yeah, it’s the opposite. One of the
0:08:40 things I do talk a lot about in the book is to build your personal brand. Like, how do you manage your
0:08:45 reputation? How can you rely on yourself to be in control of your reputation? Everyone knows they have
0:08:51 a reputation, but they’re just assume it exists. So I’m like, no, no, no. You can actually drive it
0:08:55 and build it. What do you want people to know about you at work? Are you a collaborator, a team player?
0:09:00 Are you resourceful? Are you a good listener? Are you somebody I can rely on? Like, those are the
0:09:05 things that make up your personal brand. And how can that be advantageous for you? Can it help with
0:09:09 your career? Can it help with opportunities? Can it help with mobility? Can it help future-proof
0:09:15 your career against AI because you know how to build relationships? And I feel that’s the skill.
0:09:21 The reliance in my definition is what are the seven skills you need to have to operate and navigate in
0:09:27 today’s world? One of them is create value for other people. How can I be valuable to you, Guy?
0:09:33 I would ask you a very simple question. How can I help? And then I understand what is it that you care
0:09:38 about? What are your pain points? What are things that you really want to do in the world? And I try to
0:09:42 figure out, can I introduce them to someone who knows about that? Can I share an article?
0:09:47 What can I do to create value for you? That makes you indispensable. And that’s what I mean by
0:09:53 reliance on yourself. I would say that doesn’t exactly describe what’s going on.
0:10:00 No, in today’s world. Yeah. So in today’s Washington world, like you think a lot about focusing on just
0:10:05 America first, and obviously I’m American, so I care about America first as well. But there’s a beauty
0:10:11 in collaboration. There’s a beauty in learning from other people and other cultures. There’s a beauty
0:10:18 in understanding how we are all living the same ideals and world and dream. And so we’re better together.
0:10:24 And I feel that’s a big part of understanding how we can change the narrative to be more progressive
0:10:28 and more enlightening about being open to other people and other ideas.
0:10:34 So what are the ramifications of your concept, not Musk
0:10:41 and Trump, your concept of self-reliance on external validation? Does it matter at all?
0:10:47 Yeah, I think a lot of it has to do with don’t be waiting for opportunities to come to you or waiting
0:10:53 for permission. I feel so many times, Guy, like in life, we’re hesitant to do the things we’re passionate
0:10:58 about or that we feel like we should pursue because we’re waiting for permission from others or we fear
0:11:06 judgment of others or we fear failure or that might not work out. What if it does? So many times in my life,
0:11:10 I tell the stories in the book, I didn’t think I could do something. And then I was like,
0:11:15 well, I never got asked to do it before. So what makes me think I can’t do it? And if I don’t believe
0:11:21 in myself, why should I expect somebody else to believe in me? And so I feel like this concept of
0:11:27 waiting for permission from others or waiting for external validation, life is too short.
0:11:33 So from the outside looking in, if people are listening to this and they want to figure out like,
0:11:40 how can I tell if I am self-reliant or how can I tell if this person I’m dealing with is self-reliant?
0:11:43 What are the signs of being self-reliant?
0:11:47 First of all, they think about bringing value to other people. Like they know that they have the
0:11:52 power to make the changes they want to see in their lives. People who are self-reliant invest in
0:11:56 themselves. They have a level of curiosity. I don’t wait for my manager to give me that project.
0:12:01 That’s going to make me a rock star. I don’t wait for opportunities to come to me. I’m thinking,
0:12:05 huh, I know where the business is going. I know what my manager cares about. I know the capabilities
0:12:09 of my team. Is there an idea where we can collaborate to bring something forward that
0:12:15 before getting asked to do it? So people who are self-reliant understand that they are the value
0:12:20 and they can create the opportunities they want to see in their lives. So many times you’re like,
0:12:24 well, ma, I don’t have the experience or I don’t have the skills. Then do you guys think that you can
0:12:29 reverse engineer to say, Hey, everything on the internet is for free. Podcasts are for free.
0:12:35 YouTube videos are for free. Yesterday I saw a statistic, a billion hours of content of watching
0:12:41 podcasts on YouTube, on Bloomberg. That’s insane. That means a lot of people are consuming content and
0:12:47 learning from other people’s daily routines, business habits, business failures, successes,
0:12:52 entrepreneurship, health, wellness, whatever it may be. We’ve never lived in a better time to be
0:12:58 alive. We have access to information. If you’re self-reliant, you know that you don’t need to wait
0:13:05 for somebody to give you a course on AI. You literally can go online for free and spend two hours and learn
0:13:11 how to use a tool. When you were the first approached by the prime minister to help the prime minister,
0:13:18 and you sat in that room. And then at the end of the meeting, they asked you the only person to stay
0:13:25 and meet with somebody else. So I don’t think you ever use the term imposter syndrome in your book,
0:13:31 but surely you had imposter syndrome. So how did you get over imposter syndrome?
0:13:35 Yeah. So I do talk a lot about imposter syndrome a little bit in the book. So for everyone listening,
0:13:40 I was moved to Egypt. I got asked by the prime minister of Egypt to write a speech for him.
0:13:46 A, I’m not a speech writer. B, I know nothing about Egyptian government or politics.
0:13:52 C, I don’t speak Arabic. So I’m like, this is not a good fit. Like, why am I here? I died. When I
0:13:56 got asked to do this, I literally was like, my heart sank, because if you mess up with the government,
0:14:02 like, am I going to get kicked out of the country? But I didn’t really know what to do at that time.
0:14:07 But I was just like, all you need to do is be calm, take my nerves off the floor. And I did feel a lot
0:14:13 of imposter syndrome. Like, why do they think I can do this? Like, why am I here? It’s because I speak
0:14:19 good English. Is it because I speak English humanly that they asked me to write this speech? I didn’t
0:14:25 know. And I just felt like, surely there’s better people than me. Surely there’s foreign policy experts or the
0:14:29 ministry of foreign affairs. Like there’s somebody who does this for a living. But they wanted my
0:14:34 perspective. And they wanted my thoughts, because they knew that I grew up in America. And I knew
0:14:39 I’d done a lot of work in Washington. And they knew that I had experience and value. They valued me more
0:14:44 than I valued me. And sometimes when we have imposter syndrome, we don’t recognize our strengths.
0:14:49 We don’t recognize that we’re not going to just walk in and have the confidence. We get the confidence
0:14:55 when we take action. And when you do the action, then you get the confidence. And that’s exactly
0:15:00 what I did. I’m like, okay, I just have to put myself as if I was an audience member listening to
0:15:06 that speech. What would I want to hear? And the minute I got out of my own head and said, okay,
0:15:12 what if I’m in the audience, I will know what to write. And I did. And I feel like it just came to me,
0:15:17 but it was a big struggle for the longest time where I didn’t believe in myself. And I had imposter
0:15:20 syndrome. I’m like, okay, I’m going to fake it till I make it. But I’m like, wait, this is the
0:15:26 government. There’s no such thing. Well, I mean, in people that we have discussed imposter syndrome,
0:15:33 they often say, and I don’t think you’re saying this, they often say fake it until you make it.
0:15:37 But in your case, you didn’t have to fake it. You really had it, right?
0:15:41 I had it, but I didn’t know I had it because I didn’t have that confidence. And I was waiting.
0:15:45 So sometimes we’re waiting to be confident before we do something. And I’m like,
0:15:50 you’re not going to get that confidence until you do it. It’s the reverse. And that was the
0:15:55 biggest aha moment for me is learning that I’ll get the confidence if I take the first step.
0:15:59 Now, let’s talk about the seven principles of your book. And the first one,
0:16:05 it comes from, I think, kind of a military, it’s a military term. Yeah. And it is stay low and keep
0:16:11 moving. Stay low. I can understand because the bullets are flying. Keep moving. Because if you’re stuck,
0:16:15 you’re going to get caught, but explain how you mean it in business.
0:16:22 Yeah. So this is a military term to avoid getting hit by arsenal, stay low, crouch down and keep moving
0:16:28 so they can’t see you. I took it as a metaphor for life. Stay low, put your head down and focus on what
0:16:34 you care about. There’s so many distractions in the world today. Doubters, social media, comparisons,
0:16:40 setbacks, economic downturns, things are happening in our lives. And if you are self-reliant, you know
0:16:44 that, you know what, if you want to achieve a goal, like writing a book or getting a different job or
0:16:50 switching careers or achieving a major milestone that you care about, you got to put your head down and
0:16:56 stay low and just keep moving. Because if you’re constantly distracted by other people’s needs and
0:17:01 priorities, you’re never going to achieve the things that you care about. And I always talk guys,
0:17:05 like sitting in front of your email. If you’re sitting at work, you’re just sitting there fielding
0:17:09 incoming emails all day. Those are other people’s priorities, interrupting your day. At some point,
0:17:15 you need to close your email so you can do focused, deep work of things that you actually want to get
0:17:21 done that day. And that’s the difference between people who stay low and keep moving and those that
0:17:29 react to other people’s needs to achieve their goals.
0:17:37 I’m going to go to your second principle about being a value creator, but this is an attempt of
0:17:47 mind to add value to you. Okay, good. I like it. I think that you should change the phrase, stay low, keep
0:17:57 moving to stay low, keep doing. Oh, I love that. I love that. Stay low and keep doing. That’s a good edit.
0:18:03 Right. Because you’re basically saying stay low. Don’t get all this extraneous attention, but just
0:18:09 keep doing what you’re doing and it’ll work out. Yeah. Man, moving kind of implies random direction
0:18:13 and all that. Yeah. I feel the reason I put moving is like people face a lot of setbacks and have bad
0:18:17 days and just, you know, that that’s going to happen and there are going to be bumps in the road. So just
0:18:23 keep moving through them. Don’t let that stop you from your momentum or your goals. Like I have bad days.
0:18:29 Some days I can only give 40% and that’s 100% for me. So you need to just keep moving despite the fact
0:18:34 that you’re having a bad day or things are getting in your way from your success. Okay. So when you rev
0:18:39 the book and if you change it, you should credit. I will credit you for that. Stay low, keep doing.
0:18:45 Sort of in my mantra for 25 years. I feel like it’s going to be in genuine if I switch it,
0:18:51 but I’m going to make the edit when I get to that. Okay. That brings us to the second principle,
0:18:58 which is be a value creator. And you kind of explained it before, but basically it is about
0:19:05 how you make other people’s lives better. Right? Not yours. I discovered in my career that I can be the
0:19:11 person that creates value for a client. Like I can be the person that brings them an idea or an approach
0:19:16 or something that they didn’t think of. And I always thought that clients have to tell me what they want
0:19:22 or customers have to tell me what they want, but I’m like, uh, I can think, and I can bring something
0:19:26 to the table that they haven’t thought of. And that’s valuable because when you do something for
0:19:32 someone without them asking for it, and they actually love it and appreciate it, you just became a value
0:19:38 creator. And so I thought, huh, if I can do that for one person, I can do it for another. And now it’s like
0:19:43 an inner challenge to me and like, oh, I’m going to create value for that person. I just met so-and-so
0:19:48 I’m going to create value for them without them asking me for it. And not because I want anything
0:19:53 in return, but I want to see if A, I can do it and B, if I can actually create value for somebody. So
0:19:58 Serena Williams, I met Serena Williams and now I’m like, oh, she’s not a client of mine. I just met her at
0:20:04 an event. But what I’m going to do is I’m going to try to find a way to add value for her. She has access to
0:20:09 everybody and everything. What can I do to add value to her? That’s where my mind goes. It’s like,
0:20:12 oh, I need to think of an idea. And what did you come up with?
0:20:14 I’m working on it right now. I’ll let you know how it goes.
0:20:19 I just met her like four days ago. So I’m working on it.
0:20:22 Four days. I’m surprised it took this long.
0:20:25 I’ve been on planes since I went to Doha in between. So cut me some slack.
0:20:32 Okay. Here’s my final attempt to add value to. And maybe when I saw this in your book,
0:20:37 I looked at that, I looked at it for a long time. And I was like, is that an error?
0:20:45 Or is that a really deep statement? So this might not show up. You won’t be able to see that. But
0:20:54 there’s a page in your book that says, you cannot edit a blank page. And I saw that I said, was that a
0:21:01 note from her editor to her telling her that this page is blank? Or is that a philosophy? Because
0:21:08 that philosophy is just as good. So explain that. It’s a philosophy. So a lot of people hesitate to
0:21:15 start, right? That first step is the hardest step in anything they want to achieve losing weight,
0:21:21 starting a business, asking for a promotion, but you can’t edit a blank page means you got to start
0:21:27 with something in order for you to know how to change it or tinker it or improve it or grow it. And so
0:21:32 a lot of times, like, even as me wanting to write a book, like I really want to write a book. If it’s
0:21:36 really a goal, if I don’t achieve it, if I don’t put my head down to focus on doing it,
0:21:40 you got to start somewhere. You have to edit based on taking the first attempt.
0:21:47 All right. So I am so happy that’s on purpose. I looked at that. I said, that is a very deep
0:21:54 message there. Okay. So now we’re still on value creation. So I noticed story after story where you
0:22:00 do things, you don’t have a formal relationship. You don’t have formal compensation. You don’t have
0:22:07 any kind of obvious short term gain by doing this. Yes. So basically you say over and over,
0:22:14 I don’t know if you say it, but you are communicating the idea that you should just add value and do
0:22:20 stuff for free and it all works out, right? Yeah. Obviously you need to be selective of who you’re
0:22:25 doing it for and what your intentions are, but I don’t like to live in a world and my whole career
0:22:30 and all my success in the last 30 years has not been on like transactions. I’m going to do
0:22:36 this for you. So you do this for me, right? Bring value, have good intentions, have meaning behind
0:22:41 what you’re doing and a purpose behind it. If you have ulterior motives or there’s a reason why you’re
0:22:46 doing something, it’s going to come back to bite you. Pick your circle, pick the people you really
0:22:51 want to create value for, because you know, there might be a meaning behind it. And I don’t work for
0:22:56 free for everybody, but I do tell a story of me working for somebody for a year and a half for free,
0:23:00 because I really wanted the chance to work with them. I volunteered to do work that
0:23:03 that clients would pay me for free for a client because I wanted an opportunity to get some time
0:23:10 with them. And I value the people that I’m creating value for. I don’t do it for everyone. I don’t do it
0:23:15 all the time. I would never compromise my team or their hours or their resources to do it. It might be
0:23:20 something where I’m going to donate my time to do it because I know there’s a strategic reason to do
0:23:27 it. And so being a value creator means you understand who to create value for.
0:23:33 If I were pushing back on you, I would say, well, of course, you would do whatever it takes to get to Serena
0:23:40 Williams. You would do whatever it takes to get up to Gary Vaynerchuk. But what about people who cannot help
0:23:42 you? Do you still add value to them?
0:23:47 Yeah, because I feel like obviously there was a reason for who you create value for. But even if
0:23:52 it’s not a big name or a client, it might be a customer that could open another door for you that
0:23:57 could lead to something that you’re interested. It might be you want to learn about an industry that
0:24:02 you’re not in. There’s a price to pay to get in that door. I’m going to go create value for them
0:24:08 because I don’t have the experience. I don’t know anything about the X industry. So I’m going to have
0:24:13 to pay a price to get in. And that might be my time and creating value for someone so I can get that
0:24:19 experience or build that relationship. I think there’s something in the water in Minnesota, because
0:24:27 one of the other guests from Minnesota is Andrew Zimmern. Yes, the chef. I love him. Yeah. Andrew Zimmern
0:24:34 tells a story that he had issues with drug abuse. And at 30, he was an intern at three places at once
0:24:40 in Minnesota. And his mentor advised him that you should make yourself indispensable because when
0:24:45 you’re indispensable, opportunities come to you. And in a sense- And you told the story in the book.
0:24:50 Yeah. I read it. I read it. And in a sense, that’s what you’re saying, right? You add value,
0:24:55 you become indispensable and everything works out. Yeah. In his case too, he like volunteered to do
0:25:00 every role at the news station in order to get that experience. And I feel like you have to be
0:25:05 willing to put in the effort and the willing to put in the work. When I took the job as the secretary
0:25:10 for this billionaire, I didn’t want to sit outside and answer phones and schedule meetings and get coffee.
0:25:15 But I did because I knew that there was value in building relationships that were coming through
0:25:19 that door. I knew that there was value of being close to a billionaire to learn about how does he run
0:25:25 this business? When am I ever going to get a front row seat into how a billionaire works? Never.
0:25:30 So there was value that I really had to think of it and change my mindset about my approach of the title
0:25:36 and the job and my money. I had to put all of that aside and look at what I am gaining. I’m gaining
0:25:43 experience. I’m gaining access. I’m gaining relationships. And that’s so, so, so valuable.
0:25:50 And I always tell people you either get a chance to earn or a chance to learn. In this case, I was
0:25:55 not getting the chance to earn any money. It was not a good role in terms of financial benefit because of
0:26:02 my title and where I was in the company. But I was definitely getting to build learning. And learning
0:26:08 was more valuable than what I was earning. What I was learning was way more valuable.
0:26:10 Wow. Madison, are you listening to this?
0:26:15 Yeah, you get access if you get learning and opportunity and relationships. And even I do that
0:26:20 right now. I’m 55 years old. I run my business for more than 20 years. And I might have a client that
0:26:26 I’m not going to charge them that much, lower my rate, just so I can get experience in an industry
0:26:31 or experience spending time with them. I understand that value equation.
0:26:37 Number three is don’t be a waiter, which we talked about. Don’t be waiting for permission. Don’t wait.
0:26:40 Somebody said this to me. Someone came up to you and said, “Maha, you’re a waiter.” I’m like,
0:26:43 “What?” And he’s like, “You’re waiting for Mr. Right to come along. You’re waiting for your boss to
0:26:48 give you that project that’s going to make you a rockstar.” And you know what? So much of how I think
0:26:53 social media has perpetuated this for us is I don’t want to be the person doing that. I don’t
0:26:58 want people judging me. I wait. I wait until the right time comes, until I get more money in my bank
0:27:04 account or until I lose weight or until I can get to the next level in this company. And then I’ll do it.
0:27:09 You know what? Life is too short. You need to do what you want to do. And I tell people,
0:27:12 don’t wait for permission from others because you’ll be waiting a very long time.
0:27:14 Yeah. Do you know who Daniel Pink is?
0:27:15 Yes. Of course.
0:27:19 Okay. So Daniel Pink did something called the Regret Project.
0:27:20 Yes.
0:27:27 And one of the four consistent and main regrets in life is the boldness regret, which is that
0:27:31 you didn’t start your company. You didn’t write your book. You didn’t start your podcast. You’re
0:27:33 waiting for the perfect moment.
0:27:33 Yeah. Right.
0:27:38 Yeah. And you think about all the incredible people in the world that got their at-bats and took them
0:27:42 late at life and then succeeded. They waited for a long time, you know, when they were 50 and above,
0:27:46 loved to do the things that they wanted. It’s just, don’t wait.
0:27:50 Okay. Number, what is that?
0:27:50 Four.
0:27:51 Four.
0:27:52 Four.
0:27:58 Number four is unlearn, relearn, and invest in yourself. So what should people want to learn?
0:28:04 Yeah. So I think like now, investing in yourself is the most powerful thing. My dad told me, no one can
0:28:09 ever take away what’s between your two ears, right? If you’re knowledgeable, if you’re smart, if you’re
0:28:14 investing in yourself, no one can take that away from you. People can take away opportunities. They
0:28:19 can take away a lot of things from you, but they can’t take away that. What can you do every week
0:28:26 to invest in yourself? And I’m not talking, take courses and go to class or online. Can you take 15
0:28:31 minutes to listen to a podcast? Can you go for a walk and listen to an audio book? Can you spend,
0:28:36 you know, Tuesday nights or Sunday mornings, instead of watching Netflix that one night,
0:28:40 can you spend one hour carving out how to learn something? Learning can be anything. It could be
0:28:45 an AI tool. It could be pickleball. It could be how to cook. It could be how to take piano lessons. It
0:28:50 can be anything. Learning is good for your brain. Learning is good for your longevity. And so I want
0:28:56 people who are self-reliant to have this principle that they are not waiting for someone to invest in
0:29:02 them that they can take the power to invest in themselves. As a complete aside. And I just want
0:29:09 to mention to you, I just thought of it that your dad had ALS and we had a guest who has ALS
0:29:15 and she was diagnosed. This is like 10 years ago. She’s still alive. And when she was diagnosed,
0:29:21 she decided that she was going to run a marathon in all 50 states and she did it.
0:29:27 I just want to do what the mind is capable of doing. Honestly, that’s a great story. My dad had ALS.
0:29:33 My mom had MS. We’re going to fast forward to rule seven, which is the no regrets chapter right now. But
0:29:38 I do talk a lot about my personal story, taking care of them, because I feel like there’s so much
0:29:42 in my life I could have regretted. Like I got to be the caretaker and I had a lot of responsibility
0:29:47 that I had to shoulder. But I learned so much from that process of how to be empathetic and how to have
0:29:52 perspective and how to be patient. And if I thought I was having a bad day, I just had to look at them
0:29:58 and say, oh, they can’t get out of bed and walk and we can, and I can. And so rule number seven is live
0:30:04 with no regrets. It’s easy to say it’s difficult to do, but I feel like everybody has something in their
0:30:08 life. Everybody has a story. Everybody has a setback. Everybody has a struggle, including me,
0:30:13 including you, including everyone listening to this show. And so don’t let that define you. How can you
0:30:20 take that struggle and turn it into a strength? In number seven with live with no regrets. I have to
0:30:29 tell you that Madison and I read at least 52 books a year. Okay. And I cannot remember an instance of
0:30:36 where an author told the story about how they totally blew it. And I love the story of how
0:30:43 you didn’t get a Facebook job because you didn’t prepare enough to learn enough about Facebook in
0:30:50 Africa. And that just tanked your interview. Yes. I think a lot of life is doing the prep and showing
0:30:55 up, right? What do you need to do to prepare? I had just come off a great job at Google. I had been
0:31:00 offered the head of Google went to become the head of Facebook. And so he said, you got to interview for
0:31:05 this job. You’re perfect for us. You should come. And I interviewed, it’s a panel. So you interview with
0:31:10 different people. It was going to be a bigger role than what I had at Google. Google was 18 countries.
0:31:16 This was going to be like 22 or 24. It was going to give me all of the horn of Africa and Turkey and
0:31:21 all that kind of stuff. So I was like, oh my God, this is a great opportunity for me. And I loved a lot of
0:31:26 people that were at Google that went to Facebook. The interviews came to the last one, which was one
0:31:30 of the managers and leaders in South, Sub-Saharan Africa and South Africa. And I just didn’t nail
0:31:34 the interview. I didn’t do my homework. I didn’t know my stuff. I didn’t study the market. And
0:31:39 that just taught me so much. I went crushed. I’m like, oh my God, my life is over. I just came from
0:31:46 this high of working at Google and I got turned down by Facebook by this role. And I thought my life was
0:31:50 over and I was so upset about it. And I’m like, okay, I never want to feel this way again. I’m
0:31:53 always going to prepare. I’m always going to do the homework. If someone says do four things,
0:31:59 I’m going to do 10 things. And it worked out really well for me that I didn’t get that role
0:32:03 because like the following week, I got asked to work in the office of the ruler of Dubai and the
0:32:10 executive office, which is extremely prestigious role to have. And things played out just fine. But
0:32:15 I do take very hard lessons from that rejection of what I don’t want to feel like again.
0:32:19 I thought that was a great story to pass along. It’s true.
0:32:22 Up next on Remarkable People.
0:32:27 I’m always trying to think how I can make multiple deposits in different people’s trust banks.
0:32:33 So I go around being intentional and valuable to other people because I may or may not want to wake
0:32:37 a withdrawal, but I don’t want to be in this society of transactions. I’ll do something for you
0:32:43 if you do something for me or tit for tat. I feel like that’s a very short term way of thinking.
0:32:48 And it’s not been the signature of my success as I always think long term, like
0:32:53 create value for people over time. Show up for them. Serve your network. Your network is not there
0:32:59 to serve you. Show up for people in a way that’s meaningful for them. And that’s how you build a good reputation.
0:33:19 Subscribe, rate, and review it. Even better, forward it to a friend. A big mahalo to you for doing this.
0:33:23 You’re listening to Remarkable People with Guy Kawasaki.
0:33:29 Okay, so now we cover number seven. We’re going back and we’re going to go back to five.
0:33:34 Yeah. Think of your reputation as currency. What do you mean here?
0:33:39 Think about a guy like we all have reputations and I want people to understand how important it is that
0:33:43 you value that like a currency, like what’s its worth and what’s its value. Your name is the only
0:33:49 thing you actually own and that name can open doors and bring you opportunities. And this is the biggest
0:33:53 chapter in the book for a reason. I talk a lot about how to teach people how to build their personal brands.
0:33:57 And a lot of people are like, well, ma, I’m not a social media influencer. I don’t need to build my
0:34:02 personal brand. If you have a job, you have a personal brand. If you have a social media account,
0:34:06 you have a personal brand. And you need to be thinking about how you show up in the world and
0:34:13 how your name is what’s going to open up doors and keep you strong and build relationships for you and
0:34:17 get you the opportunity to meet people and to get you the more opportunities you have,
0:34:21 the more relationships you have, the more opportunities you have to make money or to build
0:34:26 your dreams or start that project that you want. So building your personal brand is not an option.
0:34:31 Like how do you show up in the world is everything today. And we live in a world of cancel culture
0:34:36 and real time, everything. Be intentional about it. And I give people the playbook on how to do it.
0:34:42 Couldn’t someone make the case that to stay low. And now you’re telling me to build a personal brand.
0:34:47 Are those two things not in opposition? I didn’t say stay low profile. I said,
0:34:53 stay low, meaning stay focused. So stay low means put those blinders on and stay focused on what you
0:34:57 care about. Otherwise you’re constantly going to be pulled in a hundred directions.
0:35:01 Whether or not you want to be high profile, low profile, that’s up to you, your brand,
0:35:06 your speed, your life, your style, your authenticity, how you operate and how you live.
0:35:11 But I want you to have basic information about you on the internet that you control so that other
0:35:16 people aren’t controlling it for you. So have a solid profile on LinkedIn. It doesn’t mean you
0:35:20 have to be posting every day and all that kind of stuff, but no, have a clear profile picture,
0:35:25 have a nice title, show who you are, your career, your objectives. You have to drive it. And I’m
0:35:29 telling you, if you don’t, somebody else will, and it’s probably not going to be what you want.
0:35:34 I interact with a lot of people who ask me how to build a personal brand. And in their minds,
0:35:40 it’s about, Oh, I’m going to write white papers. I’m going to reposition myself. I’m going to hire
0:35:48 this firm to create social media posts. I’m going to try to get on Ted talks and I’m going to basically
0:35:51 put lipstick on a pig. And that’s not at all what you’re saying.
0:35:57 Yeah. That’s not what I’m saying. I feel like if you have a role at work,
0:36:03 ask somebody how they would describe you. And those three words, the three words you want people
0:36:09 to describe you as, then you’re good to go. Your personal brand is solid. But if someone describes
0:36:14 you in a way that’s not consistent with what you want it to be, then you need to work on your personal
0:36:18 brand. You need to say, okay, people don’t think I’m collaborative. Then I need to make an effort to
0:36:22 show people I do want to collaborate. Because if you work in a company and you want to get that career
0:36:28 mobility, it matters. If you’re an entrepreneur listening to this podcast, you want to have a good
0:36:32 personal brand as a founder. So you can attract the right talent. So you can attract the right
0:36:37 investors. So you can bring the right partners and collaborators to your business. It’s a currency.
0:36:42 Now people follow people. They don’t follow companies. Think of Donald Trump. His brand is
0:36:46 more powerful than the Republican party. He’s built a strong personal brand.
0:36:50 That’s one way to look at it.
0:36:50 Yeah.
0:36:59 Yeah. I tried an interesting thing yesterday, not related to your book, but this merits discussion,
0:37:05 which is I went to chat GPT and I asked if Guy Kawasaki is trustworthy.
0:37:07 Really? And what did it say?
0:37:11 And it’s a very interesting exercise. You should try it for yourself.
0:37:13 Okay. I’m going to write it down.
0:37:19 It is very interesting. And I did it for myself. I did it for Deepak Chopra.
0:37:20 Oh, cool.
0:37:25 Just do it. You will find it very interesting. Yeah. Yeah. Because you could make the case that
0:37:32 chat GPT for all its hallucinations and all that, but it’s not politically motivated. It’s hard to
0:37:37 game the system, right? It’s looking at everything and it’s drawing its conclusion.
0:37:38 What did it say? Tell me.
0:37:45 It said, I am trustworthy. I wouldn’t bring this up if it did it.
0:37:46 Yeah. I was going to say, what did it say?
0:37:51 Because you built a strong person. I passed the test.
0:37:55 You built a reputation. I really want people that when they think of the word personal brand to replace
0:38:00 it with the term reputation, you built a strong reputation. So people know you, they trust you.
0:38:06 Trust takes time. Authenticity comes from your intent. Are you trustworthy? Are you credible?
0:38:10 Are you reliable? All of those things make up your personal brand.
0:38:18 When I was studying your book, I think one of the most interesting dichotomies you drew is the
0:38:26 difference between self-promotion and idea promotion. So you have got to give us your explanation of that.
0:38:31 Yeah. So I think a lot of people think personal branding is about self-promotion. Look at me. I did
0:38:36 things. I know things. I’m doing this and that. I’m like, no, it’s not about promoting yourself. It’s
0:38:42 about promoting your ideas and your thought leadership and your expertise. I am 100%
0:38:47 convinced that everybody in this world, from my niece and nephew to any executive I’ve ever met,
0:38:50 has something of value that’s unique to them that they can offer the world.
0:38:57 Whether it’s how they bake or how they talk to people or how they build relationships or how they
0:39:02 know a specific skill, everybody has something to offer. And I feel that’s your secret sauce. That’s
0:39:06 the thing you should share with people. Your personal brand is made up your skills and your
0:39:11 experience, but also your personality. What’s the personal part of your personal brand? And so it’s
0:39:16 not about self-promotion. It’s about idea promotion, about your ideas and your lived experiences.
0:39:25 As I have gotten older, Maha, I have come to the conclusion that everybody you meet can do something
0:39:30 better than you. I don’t care if you’re worth a trillion dollars. You’re not good at everything.
0:39:36 And I see that every day. Right now, I have a crew cutting trees at my house and I watch what it takes
0:39:44 to cut down a 200-foot eucalyptus tree. And it is an art. It’s amazing what this guy can do with a sauce.
0:39:48 I know. I read that in your book. I thought that was interesting. I didn’t know that they were highly
0:39:49 flammable.
0:39:51 Oh, they’re very flammable. Yeah.
0:39:52 Yeah.
0:39:56 That’s the only bad thing that has ever come out of Australia.
0:39:57 Really?
0:39:58 Yeah, really.
0:40:00 That’s interesting. No, I read that. I was like, I had no idea.
0:40:08 Okay. So now, the last one, it’s the sixth one, but we did the seventh one already.
0:40:14 It is to be a long-term player. So what is the long-term?
0:40:18 Yeah, I think this chapter has to do with networking. How do you be a long-term player
0:40:22 with somebody? How do you not get into the world of transactions tit for tat? I’ll do this for you,
0:40:27 but you got to do something for me. I’ve done this my whole career. I will make a deposit in somebody’s
0:40:33 trust bank and not ask for a withdrawal for years or months or decades. Because I know that there’s a
0:40:39 value of showing up, delivering constantly. I’m always trying to think how I can make
0:40:46 multiple deposits in different people’s trust banks. So I go around being intentional and valuable to
0:40:51 other people because I may or may not want to wake a withdrawal, but I don’t want to be in this society
0:40:56 of transactions. I’ll do something for you if you do something for me or tit for tat. I feel like
0:41:01 that’s a very short-term way of thinking. And it’s not been the signature of my success as I
0:41:07 always think long-term, like create value for people over time, show up for them, serve your
0:41:12 network. Your network is not there to serve you, show up for people in a way that’s meaningful for
0:41:17 them. And that’s how you build a good reputation. That’s how you build good relationships. That’s what
0:41:23 I mean about self-reliance is like, how do I rely on myself to really have good relationships with so
0:41:29 many people? Because that’s the currency of life is having good relationships with people. And you may or may
0:41:33 not need to make a withdrawal, but I know that they’re there if I need them.
0:41:38 We’re almost at the end. I’m going to get dark for a little bit and then we’re going to come back to
0:41:46 the light. Okay. So I have to ask you this because it weighs heavily upon my mind that do you think
0:41:54 that America is headed for a Tahir square and an American spring? Are we going to have the same kind of
0:42:01 thing that happened in Egypt? I don’t think so. I don’t think so. I feel like we live in a democratic society
0:42:07 where there will be enough forces that will level the playing field and equality and equilibrium will
0:42:12 happen. I feel it’s a new time. And so there’s a lot of new change, but everything eventually course
0:42:18 corrects. And I feel that I believe in the power of people and their views and their ideas that will
0:42:19 win and prevail at the end.
0:42:23 Couldn’t somebody in Egypt have said that right when Tahir square happened?
0:42:27 No, I think for Egypt, it was a little bit different. I think it had been brewing for a
0:42:32 very long time. And I think there was a very specific premise behind that kind of protest was
0:42:36 having the same person in power for 30 years. I think that was a completely different circumstance
0:42:41 than we have here. And history judged what happened very differently today than it did at the time it
0:42:46 was happening. You know, it’s interesting to see how things play out over time. And you have to always take a
0:42:50 step back and remove yourself from what’s happening in the moment and look at history and history usually
0:42:51 prevails.
0:42:54 All right. So let’s come back to the light.
0:42:56 Yes, I prefer the light.
0:43:03 So I have to tell you that I love your seven prescriptions. I love these tactics that you have.
0:43:09 So I just want to give you this opportunity to summarize your book and summarize your philosophy and
0:43:13 just give us the Maha for Dummies summation here.
0:43:17 Thank you guys. First of all, I’m so grateful for you and both Madison reading the book and spending
0:43:22 time with it. I feel like this is a book for anyone with ambition, but I feel like it’s also
0:43:28 a playbook for like how we should think about how valuable we really are. And I am the book talking
0:43:33 about this, that the most important story is the story you tell yourself. Because I doubted myself. I didn’t
0:43:40 believe in myself. And once I started to change the narrative in my head that I was capable of doing things I
0:43:46 didn’t think I was capable of doing, a lot of things opened for me. And it does hard work and
0:43:51 life is up and down. There is no up and to the right. Everybody goes through struggles. I dealt with two
0:43:57 handicapped parents. I lived overseas, moved back, came back and forth, reinvented myself at 27,
0:44:02 reinvented at 50. Things take time. But like now I have experience. I have a lot of perspective. And I
0:44:07 feel like if anyone’s going through something and they’re not sure where to start, the first, the
0:44:13 answer is just start and the confidence will come once you do. And if anyone gets the book and reads it,
0:44:18 please DM me or send me a message. I answer all those myself. I’d love to get your feedback on it.
0:44:22 But I feel like it’s a book that will inspire you and also educate you.
0:44:28 What else can I say? As you can probably tell, I loved interviewing you and I loved the book. So
0:44:33 thank you very much. And I think people, yeah, people listening to this, they definitely have
0:44:38 a lot of information about how to be remarkable. So thank you. Yes. Thank you, Guy.
0:44:45 This is Guy Kawasaki. This has been Remarkable People. My thanks to Madison Neismar, my remarkable
0:44:52 producer and co-author, Tessa Neismar, researcher Jeff C and Shannon Hernandez, remarkable sound design
0:45:00 engineers. And until next week, be remarkable. Mahalo and aloha.
0:45:07 This is Remarkable People.
0:00:08 things. I’m doing this and that. I’m like, no, it’s not about promoting yourself. It’s about
0:00:15 promoting your ideas and your thought leadership and your expertise. I am 100% convinced that
0:00:20 everybody in this world, from my niece and nephew to any executive I’ve ever met, has something of
0:00:24 value that’s unique to them that they can offer the world. And so it’s not about self-promotion.
0:00:29 It’s about idea promotion, about your ideas and your lived experiences.
0:00:41 I’m Guy Kawasaki. This is the Remarkable People podcast. And we have someone who is truly
0:00:47 remarkable today. I enjoyed reading her book a great deal. Her name is Maha Abu-Ella Nain,
0:00:53 and she’s the CEO and founder of Digital and Savvy. She’s basically a communications and
0:01:00 branding maven. And her track record includes some amazing companies like Weber Shanwick and Google
0:01:07 and General Mills. And you are going to love this session. So Maha, welcome to Remarkable People.
0:01:12 Thank you. Thank you so much for having me, Guy. I love the show. I’ve been actually an avid
0:01:15 listener for a very long time. So it’s a full circle moment to be on the show.
0:01:17 You say that to everybody.
0:01:25 You know, Maha, I was reading your book and I kept thinking, where has Maha been my whole life? How
0:01:33 come I didn’t know about her till two days ago? Your book is truly enjoyable to read. And I love
0:01:40 that it’s so well organized. And there’s some OCD to my personality. And it’s like perfectly lined up.
0:01:46 I just loved it. So thank you. I’m so grateful that you spent time with it and read it. It’s been
0:01:51 a labor of love. It’s something I’ve always wanted to write a book. And I give practical advice, but a
0:01:57 lot of my personal story in it as well. It is definitely a lot of personal stories. And I think
0:02:02 that adds a lot. We’re just gonna dive in. All right. So I know that you’re in Minnesota right now,
0:02:11 right? I am. So this is a book that is like Dubai, UAE, Egypt, Minnesota, New York. It’s all over the
0:02:18 world. So can you just give us the gist of your story? How we start in Minnesota and go to Egypt
0:02:23 and come back and all that. Yes. So I am born and raised in a very small town called Mankato,
0:02:29 Minnesota. Think Laura Ingalls Wilder and Little House on the Prairie. That’s how small town I grew up
0:02:35 in a small town in Minnesota. I lived in the U.S. until I was 27. I worked at General Mills doing
0:02:40 sports marketing and did communications at Weber Shanwick. And when I was 27, my mother, who had
0:02:44 MS for a very long time, her and my dad, who had lived here and gone to school and just ended up
0:02:49 staying 40 years, decided they’re going to go back to Egypt where they’re from. And I had been to Egypt
0:02:54 on vacations and all this kind of stuff, but I never lived there and I don’t speak the language. I don’t
0:03:02 have any friends. So at 27, I moved back to Egypt with my parents at 27 and have to find a job and
0:03:07 start over in my life and make new friends and build a network. And I couldn’t find a job really. I
0:03:13 wanted to work at an American company like a Coke, a Pepsi, a Unilever, a P&G. But I ended up getting
0:03:19 offered to be the secretary of a billionaire, which I can tell you story is a job I didn’t want to take.
0:03:23 But my dad gave me some advice and said, you just moved here. You don’t know anybody. You should
0:03:28 take this role. I took the role. It changed my life. I went on to have an incredible career.
0:03:33 I worked for this billionaire as a secretary and as his business partner, went and built Weber
0:03:38 Shanwick PR firm in the Middle East, 18 offices, became the head of communications and public policy
0:03:44 at Google, launched Netflix in the Middle East, worked for the rural of Dubai. And in 2020, I’m 50 years
0:03:51 old. Pandemic hits. It’s COVID. I see a story that they might close the airports. I thought I might
0:03:58 not see my family again. And in 24 hours after living overseas for 23 years, I moved back to
0:04:03 Minnesota in 2020 at 50 years old to rebuild myself again.
0:04:11 In that story of the 24 hours, I don’t know how you got all the stuff for your dog. I can understand
0:04:15 packing. I can understand getting the airline reservation. I can understand the movers. I do
0:04:20 not understand how you got everything for your dog. Yeah. So when you leave the country, you have to get
0:04:25 export papers and the Ministry of the Veterinary Services has to approve it. And you have to find an
0:04:31 airline that will take a dog. The pandemic had changed everything. Yeah. I mean, it was a 24 hours of
0:04:38 the stars aligned. I really felt, Guy, if it was meant to be, it will all happen for me and God will
0:04:44 make everything work in my favor. And it did. Like I found a flight. I got the movers to come. I got my
0:04:51 dog’s export papers. And I was home hours before the world shut down. Yeah. By the way, did you play
0:04:57 hockey as a kid in Minnesota? I didn’t. I skated. My parents used to send us to the ice skating rink
0:05:01 for as a babysitter for like four hours. They’re like, drop the girls off to go ice skating.
0:05:03 But I didn’t play hockey.
0:05:05 Oh, I’m disappointed in that.
0:05:08 I know. I know. It’s you. You do that in surfing.
0:05:15 Yeah. Well, I didn’t surf as a kid either. So you mentioned that you were a secretary for your
0:05:21 billionaire. And I have to tell you, there’s another story in our podcast about someone who started off
0:05:32 as a secretary. And you will love this because that’s what happened to Jane Goodall. Jane Goodall
0:05:37 started as a secretary. So like people are listening and say, don’t be proud. I think
0:05:42 one of the pieces of wisdom that you offered in your book is it’s not what you’re doing. It’s who
0:05:47 you’re working with. Yeah. And it’s how you do it. It’s not what you do. It’s how you do it. So how could
0:05:53 I take that role working for that billionaire as a secretary? I’m like, I have to bring value. I have
0:05:59 to learn how to network. I have to learn to put my head down and just be a student and just do what
0:06:05 he wants first and deliver. And if I perform, then I can ask for other opportunities. But I have to do
0:06:10 what I was asked to do first and be put my head down and just put in the hard work and let that speak
0:06:18 for itself. I cannot imagine that in Mankato, Minnesota or something, this brown Egyptian girl
0:06:24 was accepted by all the Scandahoovians. And then you go to Egypt and you’re an American. You don’t
0:06:29 really speak the language. You were like, neither here, they’re there. Yeah. So when I was in Minnesota,
0:06:35 I was the only brown girl in my class. Like I have a very long last name. I’m Egyptian in heritage. So I’m
0:06:41 brown hair and everyone is blue eyed and blonde hair. I didn’t fit in. And I really wanted to fit
0:06:45 in. I felt like, you know, when walk like an Egyptian came out, everyone at school was doing
0:06:50 this to me. And I thought my life was over. And then when I moved to Egypt, I am Egyptian. I look
0:06:54 Egyptian. My name is Egyptian. But the minute I started talking, they’re like, oh, where’d you go
0:06:59 to school? You are so American. You don’t dress like us. You don’t look like us. You don’t talk like us.
0:07:06 You’re like, so I was never fitting in nor here, nor there. And I really learned how to take my
0:07:11 differences and made me stand out and make that what was special about me, make that my secret weapon,
0:07:16 even though for the longest time, it was a thing that I hated because I wasn’t fitting in.
0:07:24 So basically, as you say that your struggles help you become self-reliant, right?
0:07:28 Yes. The concept of self-reliance, when people see the book, they’re like, oh, she’s teaching us how to be
0:07:33 independent. That’s not what it is at all. I’m like, it’s empowering. What is it that you can rely
0:07:39 on yourself to do first before you ask for help? Like, I need to rely on myself to know how to build
0:07:43 my own relationships. I don’t need to say, hey, guy, those relationships that you’ve built up over
0:07:49 the years at all your incredible career, can I have those for something that I need? I want to rely on
0:07:55 myself to know how to do that. That’s a skill to network and keep relationships. That’s what I mean by
0:08:04 self-reliance. I almost hesitate to ask you this, but can we take a little sidetrack and relate to
0:08:12 what’s happening right now in terms of self-reliance? Because superficially, very superficially,
0:08:20 you could make the case that Trump and Musk are all about self-reliance, right? That America should be
0:08:26 independent and great and self-reliant and not dependent on anybody and all that. And when I
0:08:30 first saw the book, I said, oh man, this is going to be about that kind of stuff. But I think it’s
0:08:35 actually the opposite of what they’re doing. It’s the opposite. Yeah, it’s the opposite. One of the
0:08:40 things I do talk a lot about in the book is to build your personal brand. Like, how do you manage your
0:08:45 reputation? How can you rely on yourself to be in control of your reputation? Everyone knows they have
0:08:51 a reputation, but they’re just assume it exists. So I’m like, no, no, no. You can actually drive it
0:08:55 and build it. What do you want people to know about you at work? Are you a collaborator, a team player?
0:09:00 Are you resourceful? Are you a good listener? Are you somebody I can rely on? Like, those are the
0:09:05 things that make up your personal brand. And how can that be advantageous for you? Can it help with
0:09:09 your career? Can it help with opportunities? Can it help with mobility? Can it help future-proof
0:09:15 your career against AI because you know how to build relationships? And I feel that’s the skill.
0:09:21 The reliance in my definition is what are the seven skills you need to have to operate and navigate in
0:09:27 today’s world? One of them is create value for other people. How can I be valuable to you, Guy?
0:09:33 I would ask you a very simple question. How can I help? And then I understand what is it that you care
0:09:38 about? What are your pain points? What are things that you really want to do in the world? And I try to
0:09:42 figure out, can I introduce them to someone who knows about that? Can I share an article?
0:09:47 What can I do to create value for you? That makes you indispensable. And that’s what I mean by
0:09:53 reliance on yourself. I would say that doesn’t exactly describe what’s going on.
0:10:00 No, in today’s world. Yeah. So in today’s Washington world, like you think a lot about focusing on just
0:10:05 America first, and obviously I’m American, so I care about America first as well. But there’s a beauty
0:10:11 in collaboration. There’s a beauty in learning from other people and other cultures. There’s a beauty
0:10:18 in understanding how we are all living the same ideals and world and dream. And so we’re better together.
0:10:24 And I feel that’s a big part of understanding how we can change the narrative to be more progressive
0:10:28 and more enlightening about being open to other people and other ideas.
0:10:34 So what are the ramifications of your concept, not Musk
0:10:41 and Trump, your concept of self-reliance on external validation? Does it matter at all?
0:10:47 Yeah, I think a lot of it has to do with don’t be waiting for opportunities to come to you or waiting
0:10:53 for permission. I feel so many times, Guy, like in life, we’re hesitant to do the things we’re passionate
0:10:58 about or that we feel like we should pursue because we’re waiting for permission from others or we fear
0:11:06 judgment of others or we fear failure or that might not work out. What if it does? So many times in my life,
0:11:10 I tell the stories in the book, I didn’t think I could do something. And then I was like,
0:11:15 well, I never got asked to do it before. So what makes me think I can’t do it? And if I don’t believe
0:11:21 in myself, why should I expect somebody else to believe in me? And so I feel like this concept of
0:11:27 waiting for permission from others or waiting for external validation, life is too short.
0:11:33 So from the outside looking in, if people are listening to this and they want to figure out like,
0:11:40 how can I tell if I am self-reliant or how can I tell if this person I’m dealing with is self-reliant?
0:11:43 What are the signs of being self-reliant?
0:11:47 First of all, they think about bringing value to other people. Like they know that they have the
0:11:52 power to make the changes they want to see in their lives. People who are self-reliant invest in
0:11:56 themselves. They have a level of curiosity. I don’t wait for my manager to give me that project.
0:12:01 That’s going to make me a rock star. I don’t wait for opportunities to come to me. I’m thinking,
0:12:05 huh, I know where the business is going. I know what my manager cares about. I know the capabilities
0:12:09 of my team. Is there an idea where we can collaborate to bring something forward that
0:12:15 before getting asked to do it? So people who are self-reliant understand that they are the value
0:12:20 and they can create the opportunities they want to see in their lives. So many times you’re like,
0:12:24 well, ma, I don’t have the experience or I don’t have the skills. Then do you guys think that you can
0:12:29 reverse engineer to say, Hey, everything on the internet is for free. Podcasts are for free.
0:12:35 YouTube videos are for free. Yesterday I saw a statistic, a billion hours of content of watching
0:12:41 podcasts on YouTube, on Bloomberg. That’s insane. That means a lot of people are consuming content and
0:12:47 learning from other people’s daily routines, business habits, business failures, successes,
0:12:52 entrepreneurship, health, wellness, whatever it may be. We’ve never lived in a better time to be
0:12:58 alive. We have access to information. If you’re self-reliant, you know that you don’t need to wait
0:13:05 for somebody to give you a course on AI. You literally can go online for free and spend two hours and learn
0:13:11 how to use a tool. When you were the first approached by the prime minister to help the prime minister,
0:13:18 and you sat in that room. And then at the end of the meeting, they asked you the only person to stay
0:13:25 and meet with somebody else. So I don’t think you ever use the term imposter syndrome in your book,
0:13:31 but surely you had imposter syndrome. So how did you get over imposter syndrome?
0:13:35 Yeah. So I do talk a lot about imposter syndrome a little bit in the book. So for everyone listening,
0:13:40 I was moved to Egypt. I got asked by the prime minister of Egypt to write a speech for him.
0:13:46 A, I’m not a speech writer. B, I know nothing about Egyptian government or politics.
0:13:52 C, I don’t speak Arabic. So I’m like, this is not a good fit. Like, why am I here? I died. When I
0:13:56 got asked to do this, I literally was like, my heart sank, because if you mess up with the government,
0:14:02 like, am I going to get kicked out of the country? But I didn’t really know what to do at that time.
0:14:07 But I was just like, all you need to do is be calm, take my nerves off the floor. And I did feel a lot
0:14:13 of imposter syndrome. Like, why do they think I can do this? Like, why am I here? It’s because I speak
0:14:19 good English. Is it because I speak English humanly that they asked me to write this speech? I didn’t
0:14:25 know. And I just felt like, surely there’s better people than me. Surely there’s foreign policy experts or the
0:14:29 ministry of foreign affairs. Like there’s somebody who does this for a living. But they wanted my
0:14:34 perspective. And they wanted my thoughts, because they knew that I grew up in America. And I knew
0:14:39 I’d done a lot of work in Washington. And they knew that I had experience and value. They valued me more
0:14:44 than I valued me. And sometimes when we have imposter syndrome, we don’t recognize our strengths.
0:14:49 We don’t recognize that we’re not going to just walk in and have the confidence. We get the confidence
0:14:55 when we take action. And when you do the action, then you get the confidence. And that’s exactly
0:15:00 what I did. I’m like, okay, I just have to put myself as if I was an audience member listening to
0:15:06 that speech. What would I want to hear? And the minute I got out of my own head and said, okay,
0:15:12 what if I’m in the audience, I will know what to write. And I did. And I feel like it just came to me,
0:15:17 but it was a big struggle for the longest time where I didn’t believe in myself. And I had imposter
0:15:20 syndrome. I’m like, okay, I’m going to fake it till I make it. But I’m like, wait, this is the
0:15:26 government. There’s no such thing. Well, I mean, in people that we have discussed imposter syndrome,
0:15:33 they often say, and I don’t think you’re saying this, they often say fake it until you make it.
0:15:37 But in your case, you didn’t have to fake it. You really had it, right?
0:15:41 I had it, but I didn’t know I had it because I didn’t have that confidence. And I was waiting.
0:15:45 So sometimes we’re waiting to be confident before we do something. And I’m like,
0:15:50 you’re not going to get that confidence until you do it. It’s the reverse. And that was the
0:15:55 biggest aha moment for me is learning that I’ll get the confidence if I take the first step.
0:15:59 Now, let’s talk about the seven principles of your book. And the first one,
0:16:05 it comes from, I think, kind of a military, it’s a military term. Yeah. And it is stay low and keep
0:16:11 moving. Stay low. I can understand because the bullets are flying. Keep moving. Because if you’re stuck,
0:16:15 you’re going to get caught, but explain how you mean it in business.
0:16:22 Yeah. So this is a military term to avoid getting hit by arsenal, stay low, crouch down and keep moving
0:16:28 so they can’t see you. I took it as a metaphor for life. Stay low, put your head down and focus on what
0:16:34 you care about. There’s so many distractions in the world today. Doubters, social media, comparisons,
0:16:40 setbacks, economic downturns, things are happening in our lives. And if you are self-reliant, you know
0:16:44 that, you know what, if you want to achieve a goal, like writing a book or getting a different job or
0:16:50 switching careers or achieving a major milestone that you care about, you got to put your head down and
0:16:56 stay low and just keep moving. Because if you’re constantly distracted by other people’s needs and
0:17:01 priorities, you’re never going to achieve the things that you care about. And I always talk guys,
0:17:05 like sitting in front of your email. If you’re sitting at work, you’re just sitting there fielding
0:17:09 incoming emails all day. Those are other people’s priorities, interrupting your day. At some point,
0:17:15 you need to close your email so you can do focused, deep work of things that you actually want to get
0:17:21 done that day. And that’s the difference between people who stay low and keep moving and those that
0:17:29 react to other people’s needs to achieve their goals.
0:17:37 I’m going to go to your second principle about being a value creator, but this is an attempt of
0:17:47 mind to add value to you. Okay, good. I like it. I think that you should change the phrase, stay low, keep
0:17:57 moving to stay low, keep doing. Oh, I love that. I love that. Stay low and keep doing. That’s a good edit.
0:18:03 Right. Because you’re basically saying stay low. Don’t get all this extraneous attention, but just
0:18:09 keep doing what you’re doing and it’ll work out. Yeah. Man, moving kind of implies random direction
0:18:13 and all that. Yeah. I feel the reason I put moving is like people face a lot of setbacks and have bad
0:18:17 days and just, you know, that that’s going to happen and there are going to be bumps in the road. So just
0:18:23 keep moving through them. Don’t let that stop you from your momentum or your goals. Like I have bad days.
0:18:29 Some days I can only give 40% and that’s 100% for me. So you need to just keep moving despite the fact
0:18:34 that you’re having a bad day or things are getting in your way from your success. Okay. So when you rev
0:18:39 the book and if you change it, you should credit. I will credit you for that. Stay low, keep doing.
0:18:45 Sort of in my mantra for 25 years. I feel like it’s going to be in genuine if I switch it,
0:18:51 but I’m going to make the edit when I get to that. Okay. That brings us to the second principle,
0:18:58 which is be a value creator. And you kind of explained it before, but basically it is about
0:19:05 how you make other people’s lives better. Right? Not yours. I discovered in my career that I can be the
0:19:11 person that creates value for a client. Like I can be the person that brings them an idea or an approach
0:19:16 or something that they didn’t think of. And I always thought that clients have to tell me what they want
0:19:22 or customers have to tell me what they want, but I’m like, uh, I can think, and I can bring something
0:19:26 to the table that they haven’t thought of. And that’s valuable because when you do something for
0:19:32 someone without them asking for it, and they actually love it and appreciate it, you just became a value
0:19:38 creator. And so I thought, huh, if I can do that for one person, I can do it for another. And now it’s like
0:19:43 an inner challenge to me and like, oh, I’m going to create value for that person. I just met so-and-so
0:19:48 I’m going to create value for them without them asking me for it. And not because I want anything
0:19:53 in return, but I want to see if A, I can do it and B, if I can actually create value for somebody. So
0:19:58 Serena Williams, I met Serena Williams and now I’m like, oh, she’s not a client of mine. I just met her at
0:20:04 an event. But what I’m going to do is I’m going to try to find a way to add value for her. She has access to
0:20:09 everybody and everything. What can I do to add value to her? That’s where my mind goes. It’s like,
0:20:12 oh, I need to think of an idea. And what did you come up with?
0:20:14 I’m working on it right now. I’ll let you know how it goes.
0:20:19 I just met her like four days ago. So I’m working on it.
0:20:22 Four days. I’m surprised it took this long.
0:20:25 I’ve been on planes since I went to Doha in between. So cut me some slack.
0:20:32 Okay. Here’s my final attempt to add value to. And maybe when I saw this in your book,
0:20:37 I looked at that, I looked at it for a long time. And I was like, is that an error?
0:20:45 Or is that a really deep statement? So this might not show up. You won’t be able to see that. But
0:20:54 there’s a page in your book that says, you cannot edit a blank page. And I saw that I said, was that a
0:21:01 note from her editor to her telling her that this page is blank? Or is that a philosophy? Because
0:21:08 that philosophy is just as good. So explain that. It’s a philosophy. So a lot of people hesitate to
0:21:15 start, right? That first step is the hardest step in anything they want to achieve losing weight,
0:21:21 starting a business, asking for a promotion, but you can’t edit a blank page means you got to start
0:21:27 with something in order for you to know how to change it or tinker it or improve it or grow it. And so
0:21:32 a lot of times, like, even as me wanting to write a book, like I really want to write a book. If it’s
0:21:36 really a goal, if I don’t achieve it, if I don’t put my head down to focus on doing it,
0:21:40 you got to start somewhere. You have to edit based on taking the first attempt.
0:21:47 All right. So I am so happy that’s on purpose. I looked at that. I said, that is a very deep
0:21:54 message there. Okay. So now we’re still on value creation. So I noticed story after story where you
0:22:00 do things, you don’t have a formal relationship. You don’t have formal compensation. You don’t have
0:22:07 any kind of obvious short term gain by doing this. Yes. So basically you say over and over,
0:22:14 I don’t know if you say it, but you are communicating the idea that you should just add value and do
0:22:20 stuff for free and it all works out, right? Yeah. Obviously you need to be selective of who you’re
0:22:25 doing it for and what your intentions are, but I don’t like to live in a world and my whole career
0:22:30 and all my success in the last 30 years has not been on like transactions. I’m going to do
0:22:36 this for you. So you do this for me, right? Bring value, have good intentions, have meaning behind
0:22:41 what you’re doing and a purpose behind it. If you have ulterior motives or there’s a reason why you’re
0:22:46 doing something, it’s going to come back to bite you. Pick your circle, pick the people you really
0:22:51 want to create value for, because you know, there might be a meaning behind it. And I don’t work for
0:22:56 free for everybody, but I do tell a story of me working for somebody for a year and a half for free,
0:23:00 because I really wanted the chance to work with them. I volunteered to do work that
0:23:03 that clients would pay me for free for a client because I wanted an opportunity to get some time
0:23:10 with them. And I value the people that I’m creating value for. I don’t do it for everyone. I don’t do it
0:23:15 all the time. I would never compromise my team or their hours or their resources to do it. It might be
0:23:20 something where I’m going to donate my time to do it because I know there’s a strategic reason to do
0:23:27 it. And so being a value creator means you understand who to create value for.
0:23:33 If I were pushing back on you, I would say, well, of course, you would do whatever it takes to get to Serena
0:23:40 Williams. You would do whatever it takes to get up to Gary Vaynerchuk. But what about people who cannot help
0:23:42 you? Do you still add value to them?
0:23:47 Yeah, because I feel like obviously there was a reason for who you create value for. But even if
0:23:52 it’s not a big name or a client, it might be a customer that could open another door for you that
0:23:57 could lead to something that you’re interested. It might be you want to learn about an industry that
0:24:02 you’re not in. There’s a price to pay to get in that door. I’m going to go create value for them
0:24:08 because I don’t have the experience. I don’t know anything about the X industry. So I’m going to have
0:24:13 to pay a price to get in. And that might be my time and creating value for someone so I can get that
0:24:19 experience or build that relationship. I think there’s something in the water in Minnesota, because
0:24:27 one of the other guests from Minnesota is Andrew Zimmern. Yes, the chef. I love him. Yeah. Andrew Zimmern
0:24:34 tells a story that he had issues with drug abuse. And at 30, he was an intern at three places at once
0:24:40 in Minnesota. And his mentor advised him that you should make yourself indispensable because when
0:24:45 you’re indispensable, opportunities come to you. And in a sense- And you told the story in the book.
0:24:50 Yeah. I read it. I read it. And in a sense, that’s what you’re saying, right? You add value,
0:24:55 you become indispensable and everything works out. Yeah. In his case too, he like volunteered to do
0:25:00 every role at the news station in order to get that experience. And I feel like you have to be
0:25:05 willing to put in the effort and the willing to put in the work. When I took the job as the secretary
0:25:10 for this billionaire, I didn’t want to sit outside and answer phones and schedule meetings and get coffee.
0:25:15 But I did because I knew that there was value in building relationships that were coming through
0:25:19 that door. I knew that there was value of being close to a billionaire to learn about how does he run
0:25:25 this business? When am I ever going to get a front row seat into how a billionaire works? Never.
0:25:30 So there was value that I really had to think of it and change my mindset about my approach of the title
0:25:36 and the job and my money. I had to put all of that aside and look at what I am gaining. I’m gaining
0:25:43 experience. I’m gaining access. I’m gaining relationships. And that’s so, so, so valuable.
0:25:50 And I always tell people you either get a chance to earn or a chance to learn. In this case, I was
0:25:55 not getting the chance to earn any money. It was not a good role in terms of financial benefit because of
0:26:02 my title and where I was in the company. But I was definitely getting to build learning. And learning
0:26:08 was more valuable than what I was earning. What I was learning was way more valuable.
0:26:10 Wow. Madison, are you listening to this?
0:26:15 Yeah, you get access if you get learning and opportunity and relationships. And even I do that
0:26:20 right now. I’m 55 years old. I run my business for more than 20 years. And I might have a client that
0:26:26 I’m not going to charge them that much, lower my rate, just so I can get experience in an industry
0:26:31 or experience spending time with them. I understand that value equation.
0:26:37 Number three is don’t be a waiter, which we talked about. Don’t be waiting for permission. Don’t wait.
0:26:40 Somebody said this to me. Someone came up to you and said, “Maha, you’re a waiter.” I’m like,
0:26:43 “What?” And he’s like, “You’re waiting for Mr. Right to come along. You’re waiting for your boss to
0:26:48 give you that project that’s going to make you a rockstar.” And you know what? So much of how I think
0:26:53 social media has perpetuated this for us is I don’t want to be the person doing that. I don’t
0:26:58 want people judging me. I wait. I wait until the right time comes, until I get more money in my bank
0:27:04 account or until I lose weight or until I can get to the next level in this company. And then I’ll do it.
0:27:09 You know what? Life is too short. You need to do what you want to do. And I tell people,
0:27:12 don’t wait for permission from others because you’ll be waiting a very long time.
0:27:14 Yeah. Do you know who Daniel Pink is?
0:27:15 Yes. Of course.
0:27:19 Okay. So Daniel Pink did something called the Regret Project.
0:27:20 Yes.
0:27:27 And one of the four consistent and main regrets in life is the boldness regret, which is that
0:27:31 you didn’t start your company. You didn’t write your book. You didn’t start your podcast. You’re
0:27:33 waiting for the perfect moment.
0:27:33 Yeah. Right.
0:27:38 Yeah. And you think about all the incredible people in the world that got their at-bats and took them
0:27:42 late at life and then succeeded. They waited for a long time, you know, when they were 50 and above,
0:27:46 loved to do the things that they wanted. It’s just, don’t wait.
0:27:50 Okay. Number, what is that?
0:27:50 Four.
0:27:51 Four.
0:27:52 Four.
0:27:58 Number four is unlearn, relearn, and invest in yourself. So what should people want to learn?
0:28:04 Yeah. So I think like now, investing in yourself is the most powerful thing. My dad told me, no one can
0:28:09 ever take away what’s between your two ears, right? If you’re knowledgeable, if you’re smart, if you’re
0:28:14 investing in yourself, no one can take that away from you. People can take away opportunities. They
0:28:19 can take away a lot of things from you, but they can’t take away that. What can you do every week
0:28:26 to invest in yourself? And I’m not talking, take courses and go to class or online. Can you take 15
0:28:31 minutes to listen to a podcast? Can you go for a walk and listen to an audio book? Can you spend,
0:28:36 you know, Tuesday nights or Sunday mornings, instead of watching Netflix that one night,
0:28:40 can you spend one hour carving out how to learn something? Learning can be anything. It could be
0:28:45 an AI tool. It could be pickleball. It could be how to cook. It could be how to take piano lessons. It
0:28:50 can be anything. Learning is good for your brain. Learning is good for your longevity. And so I want
0:28:56 people who are self-reliant to have this principle that they are not waiting for someone to invest in
0:29:02 them that they can take the power to invest in themselves. As a complete aside. And I just want
0:29:09 to mention to you, I just thought of it that your dad had ALS and we had a guest who has ALS
0:29:15 and she was diagnosed. This is like 10 years ago. She’s still alive. And when she was diagnosed,
0:29:21 she decided that she was going to run a marathon in all 50 states and she did it.
0:29:27 I just want to do what the mind is capable of doing. Honestly, that’s a great story. My dad had ALS.
0:29:33 My mom had MS. We’re going to fast forward to rule seven, which is the no regrets chapter right now. But
0:29:38 I do talk a lot about my personal story, taking care of them, because I feel like there’s so much
0:29:42 in my life I could have regretted. Like I got to be the caretaker and I had a lot of responsibility
0:29:47 that I had to shoulder. But I learned so much from that process of how to be empathetic and how to have
0:29:52 perspective and how to be patient. And if I thought I was having a bad day, I just had to look at them
0:29:58 and say, oh, they can’t get out of bed and walk and we can, and I can. And so rule number seven is live
0:30:04 with no regrets. It’s easy to say it’s difficult to do, but I feel like everybody has something in their
0:30:08 life. Everybody has a story. Everybody has a setback. Everybody has a struggle, including me,
0:30:13 including you, including everyone listening to this show. And so don’t let that define you. How can you
0:30:20 take that struggle and turn it into a strength? In number seven with live with no regrets. I have to
0:30:29 tell you that Madison and I read at least 52 books a year. Okay. And I cannot remember an instance of
0:30:36 where an author told the story about how they totally blew it. And I love the story of how
0:30:43 you didn’t get a Facebook job because you didn’t prepare enough to learn enough about Facebook in
0:30:50 Africa. And that just tanked your interview. Yes. I think a lot of life is doing the prep and showing
0:30:55 up, right? What do you need to do to prepare? I had just come off a great job at Google. I had been
0:31:00 offered the head of Google went to become the head of Facebook. And so he said, you got to interview for
0:31:05 this job. You’re perfect for us. You should come. And I interviewed, it’s a panel. So you interview with
0:31:10 different people. It was going to be a bigger role than what I had at Google. Google was 18 countries.
0:31:16 This was going to be like 22 or 24. It was going to give me all of the horn of Africa and Turkey and
0:31:21 all that kind of stuff. So I was like, oh my God, this is a great opportunity for me. And I loved a lot of
0:31:26 people that were at Google that went to Facebook. The interviews came to the last one, which was one
0:31:30 of the managers and leaders in South, Sub-Saharan Africa and South Africa. And I just didn’t nail
0:31:34 the interview. I didn’t do my homework. I didn’t know my stuff. I didn’t study the market. And
0:31:39 that just taught me so much. I went crushed. I’m like, oh my God, my life is over. I just came from
0:31:46 this high of working at Google and I got turned down by Facebook by this role. And I thought my life was
0:31:50 over and I was so upset about it. And I’m like, okay, I never want to feel this way again. I’m
0:31:53 always going to prepare. I’m always going to do the homework. If someone says do four things,
0:31:59 I’m going to do 10 things. And it worked out really well for me that I didn’t get that role
0:32:03 because like the following week, I got asked to work in the office of the ruler of Dubai and the
0:32:10 executive office, which is extremely prestigious role to have. And things played out just fine. But
0:32:15 I do take very hard lessons from that rejection of what I don’t want to feel like again.
0:32:19 I thought that was a great story to pass along. It’s true.
0:32:22 Up next on Remarkable People.
0:32:27 I’m always trying to think how I can make multiple deposits in different people’s trust banks.
0:32:33 So I go around being intentional and valuable to other people because I may or may not want to wake
0:32:37 a withdrawal, but I don’t want to be in this society of transactions. I’ll do something for you
0:32:43 if you do something for me or tit for tat. I feel like that’s a very short term way of thinking.
0:32:48 And it’s not been the signature of my success as I always think long term, like
0:32:53 create value for people over time. Show up for them. Serve your network. Your network is not there
0:32:59 to serve you. Show up for people in a way that’s meaningful for them. And that’s how you build a good reputation.
0:33:19 Subscribe, rate, and review it. Even better, forward it to a friend. A big mahalo to you for doing this.
0:33:23 You’re listening to Remarkable People with Guy Kawasaki.
0:33:29 Okay, so now we cover number seven. We’re going back and we’re going to go back to five.
0:33:34 Yeah. Think of your reputation as currency. What do you mean here?
0:33:39 Think about a guy like we all have reputations and I want people to understand how important it is that
0:33:43 you value that like a currency, like what’s its worth and what’s its value. Your name is the only
0:33:49 thing you actually own and that name can open doors and bring you opportunities. And this is the biggest
0:33:53 chapter in the book for a reason. I talk a lot about how to teach people how to build their personal brands.
0:33:57 And a lot of people are like, well, ma, I’m not a social media influencer. I don’t need to build my
0:34:02 personal brand. If you have a job, you have a personal brand. If you have a social media account,
0:34:06 you have a personal brand. And you need to be thinking about how you show up in the world and
0:34:13 how your name is what’s going to open up doors and keep you strong and build relationships for you and
0:34:17 get you the opportunity to meet people and to get you the more opportunities you have,
0:34:21 the more relationships you have, the more opportunities you have to make money or to build
0:34:26 your dreams or start that project that you want. So building your personal brand is not an option.
0:34:31 Like how do you show up in the world is everything today. And we live in a world of cancel culture
0:34:36 and real time, everything. Be intentional about it. And I give people the playbook on how to do it.
0:34:42 Couldn’t someone make the case that to stay low. And now you’re telling me to build a personal brand.
0:34:47 Are those two things not in opposition? I didn’t say stay low profile. I said,
0:34:53 stay low, meaning stay focused. So stay low means put those blinders on and stay focused on what you
0:34:57 care about. Otherwise you’re constantly going to be pulled in a hundred directions.
0:35:01 Whether or not you want to be high profile, low profile, that’s up to you, your brand,
0:35:06 your speed, your life, your style, your authenticity, how you operate and how you live.
0:35:11 But I want you to have basic information about you on the internet that you control so that other
0:35:16 people aren’t controlling it for you. So have a solid profile on LinkedIn. It doesn’t mean you
0:35:20 have to be posting every day and all that kind of stuff, but no, have a clear profile picture,
0:35:25 have a nice title, show who you are, your career, your objectives. You have to drive it. And I’m
0:35:29 telling you, if you don’t, somebody else will, and it’s probably not going to be what you want.
0:35:34 I interact with a lot of people who ask me how to build a personal brand. And in their minds,
0:35:40 it’s about, Oh, I’m going to write white papers. I’m going to reposition myself. I’m going to hire
0:35:48 this firm to create social media posts. I’m going to try to get on Ted talks and I’m going to basically
0:35:51 put lipstick on a pig. And that’s not at all what you’re saying.
0:35:57 Yeah. That’s not what I’m saying. I feel like if you have a role at work,
0:36:03 ask somebody how they would describe you. And those three words, the three words you want people
0:36:09 to describe you as, then you’re good to go. Your personal brand is solid. But if someone describes
0:36:14 you in a way that’s not consistent with what you want it to be, then you need to work on your personal
0:36:18 brand. You need to say, okay, people don’t think I’m collaborative. Then I need to make an effort to
0:36:22 show people I do want to collaborate. Because if you work in a company and you want to get that career
0:36:28 mobility, it matters. If you’re an entrepreneur listening to this podcast, you want to have a good
0:36:32 personal brand as a founder. So you can attract the right talent. So you can attract the right
0:36:37 investors. So you can bring the right partners and collaborators to your business. It’s a currency.
0:36:42 Now people follow people. They don’t follow companies. Think of Donald Trump. His brand is
0:36:46 more powerful than the Republican party. He’s built a strong personal brand.
0:36:50 That’s one way to look at it.
0:36:50 Yeah.
0:36:59 Yeah. I tried an interesting thing yesterday, not related to your book, but this merits discussion,
0:37:05 which is I went to chat GPT and I asked if Guy Kawasaki is trustworthy.
0:37:07 Really? And what did it say?
0:37:11 And it’s a very interesting exercise. You should try it for yourself.
0:37:13 Okay. I’m going to write it down.
0:37:19 It is very interesting. And I did it for myself. I did it for Deepak Chopra.
0:37:20 Oh, cool.
0:37:25 Just do it. You will find it very interesting. Yeah. Yeah. Because you could make the case that
0:37:32 chat GPT for all its hallucinations and all that, but it’s not politically motivated. It’s hard to
0:37:37 game the system, right? It’s looking at everything and it’s drawing its conclusion.
0:37:38 What did it say? Tell me.
0:37:45 It said, I am trustworthy. I wouldn’t bring this up if it did it.
0:37:46 Yeah. I was going to say, what did it say?
0:37:51 Because you built a strong person. I passed the test.
0:37:55 You built a reputation. I really want people that when they think of the word personal brand to replace
0:38:00 it with the term reputation, you built a strong reputation. So people know you, they trust you.
0:38:06 Trust takes time. Authenticity comes from your intent. Are you trustworthy? Are you credible?
0:38:10 Are you reliable? All of those things make up your personal brand.
0:38:18 When I was studying your book, I think one of the most interesting dichotomies you drew is the
0:38:26 difference between self-promotion and idea promotion. So you have got to give us your explanation of that.
0:38:31 Yeah. So I think a lot of people think personal branding is about self-promotion. Look at me. I did
0:38:36 things. I know things. I’m doing this and that. I’m like, no, it’s not about promoting yourself. It’s
0:38:42 about promoting your ideas and your thought leadership and your expertise. I am 100%
0:38:47 convinced that everybody in this world, from my niece and nephew to any executive I’ve ever met,
0:38:50 has something of value that’s unique to them that they can offer the world.
0:38:57 Whether it’s how they bake or how they talk to people or how they build relationships or how they
0:39:02 know a specific skill, everybody has something to offer. And I feel that’s your secret sauce. That’s
0:39:06 the thing you should share with people. Your personal brand is made up your skills and your
0:39:11 experience, but also your personality. What’s the personal part of your personal brand? And so it’s
0:39:16 not about self-promotion. It’s about idea promotion, about your ideas and your lived experiences.
0:39:25 As I have gotten older, Maha, I have come to the conclusion that everybody you meet can do something
0:39:30 better than you. I don’t care if you’re worth a trillion dollars. You’re not good at everything.
0:39:36 And I see that every day. Right now, I have a crew cutting trees at my house and I watch what it takes
0:39:44 to cut down a 200-foot eucalyptus tree. And it is an art. It’s amazing what this guy can do with a sauce.
0:39:48 I know. I read that in your book. I thought that was interesting. I didn’t know that they were highly
0:39:49 flammable.
0:39:51 Oh, they’re very flammable. Yeah.
0:39:52 Yeah.
0:39:56 That’s the only bad thing that has ever come out of Australia.
0:39:57 Really?
0:39:58 Yeah, really.
0:40:00 That’s interesting. No, I read that. I was like, I had no idea.
0:40:08 Okay. So now, the last one, it’s the sixth one, but we did the seventh one already.
0:40:14 It is to be a long-term player. So what is the long-term?
0:40:18 Yeah, I think this chapter has to do with networking. How do you be a long-term player
0:40:22 with somebody? How do you not get into the world of transactions tit for tat? I’ll do this for you,
0:40:27 but you got to do something for me. I’ve done this my whole career. I will make a deposit in somebody’s
0:40:33 trust bank and not ask for a withdrawal for years or months or decades. Because I know that there’s a
0:40:39 value of showing up, delivering constantly. I’m always trying to think how I can make
0:40:46 multiple deposits in different people’s trust banks. So I go around being intentional and valuable to
0:40:51 other people because I may or may not want to wake a withdrawal, but I don’t want to be in this society
0:40:56 of transactions. I’ll do something for you if you do something for me or tit for tat. I feel like
0:41:01 that’s a very short-term way of thinking. And it’s not been the signature of my success as I
0:41:07 always think long-term, like create value for people over time, show up for them, serve your
0:41:12 network. Your network is not there to serve you, show up for people in a way that’s meaningful for
0:41:17 them. And that’s how you build a good reputation. That’s how you build good relationships. That’s what
0:41:23 I mean about self-reliance is like, how do I rely on myself to really have good relationships with so
0:41:29 many people? Because that’s the currency of life is having good relationships with people. And you may or may
0:41:33 not need to make a withdrawal, but I know that they’re there if I need them.
0:41:38 We’re almost at the end. I’m going to get dark for a little bit and then we’re going to come back to
0:41:46 the light. Okay. So I have to ask you this because it weighs heavily upon my mind that do you think
0:41:54 that America is headed for a Tahir square and an American spring? Are we going to have the same kind of
0:42:01 thing that happened in Egypt? I don’t think so. I don’t think so. I feel like we live in a democratic society
0:42:07 where there will be enough forces that will level the playing field and equality and equilibrium will
0:42:12 happen. I feel it’s a new time. And so there’s a lot of new change, but everything eventually course
0:42:18 corrects. And I feel that I believe in the power of people and their views and their ideas that will
0:42:19 win and prevail at the end.
0:42:23 Couldn’t somebody in Egypt have said that right when Tahir square happened?
0:42:27 No, I think for Egypt, it was a little bit different. I think it had been brewing for a
0:42:32 very long time. And I think there was a very specific premise behind that kind of protest was
0:42:36 having the same person in power for 30 years. I think that was a completely different circumstance
0:42:41 than we have here. And history judged what happened very differently today than it did at the time it
0:42:46 was happening. You know, it’s interesting to see how things play out over time. And you have to always take a
0:42:50 step back and remove yourself from what’s happening in the moment and look at history and history usually
0:42:51 prevails.
0:42:54 All right. So let’s come back to the light.
0:42:56 Yes, I prefer the light.
0:43:03 So I have to tell you that I love your seven prescriptions. I love these tactics that you have.
0:43:09 So I just want to give you this opportunity to summarize your book and summarize your philosophy and
0:43:13 just give us the Maha for Dummies summation here.
0:43:17 Thank you guys. First of all, I’m so grateful for you and both Madison reading the book and spending
0:43:22 time with it. I feel like this is a book for anyone with ambition, but I feel like it’s also
0:43:28 a playbook for like how we should think about how valuable we really are. And I am the book talking
0:43:33 about this, that the most important story is the story you tell yourself. Because I doubted myself. I didn’t
0:43:40 believe in myself. And once I started to change the narrative in my head that I was capable of doing things I
0:43:46 didn’t think I was capable of doing, a lot of things opened for me. And it does hard work and
0:43:51 life is up and down. There is no up and to the right. Everybody goes through struggles. I dealt with two
0:43:57 handicapped parents. I lived overseas, moved back, came back and forth, reinvented myself at 27,
0:44:02 reinvented at 50. Things take time. But like now I have experience. I have a lot of perspective. And I
0:44:07 feel like if anyone’s going through something and they’re not sure where to start, the first, the
0:44:13 answer is just start and the confidence will come once you do. And if anyone gets the book and reads it,
0:44:18 please DM me or send me a message. I answer all those myself. I’d love to get your feedback on it.
0:44:22 But I feel like it’s a book that will inspire you and also educate you.
0:44:28 What else can I say? As you can probably tell, I loved interviewing you and I loved the book. So
0:44:33 thank you very much. And I think people, yeah, people listening to this, they definitely have
0:44:38 a lot of information about how to be remarkable. So thank you. Yes. Thank you, Guy.
0:44:45 This is Guy Kawasaki. This has been Remarkable People. My thanks to Madison Neismar, my remarkable
0:44:52 producer and co-author, Tessa Neismar, researcher Jeff C and Shannon Hernandez, remarkable sound design
0:45:00 engineers. And until next week, be remarkable. Mahalo and aloha.
0:45:07 This is Remarkable People.
Can a secretary to a billionaire become his business partner and go on to lead communications for Google and Netflix in the Middle East? Maha Abouelenein proves that with self-reliance and value creation, extraordinary paths unfold. Born in Minnesota but building her career across Egypt and Dubai, Maha shares her journey from small-town America to international communications maven. Her book Influence reveals seven powerful principles for career success, including “stay low, keep moving” and “think of your reputation as currency.” Discover how creating value without expecting immediate returns built her remarkable career spanning Weber Shandwick, Google, Netflix, and advising the ruler of Dubai. Maha’s insights on personal branding, overcoming imposter syndrome, and making yourself indispensable offer a masterclass in authentic relationship building that works in any culture or industry.
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Guy Kawasaki is on a mission to make you remarkable. His Remarkable People podcast features interviews with remarkable people such as Jane Goodall, Marc Benioff, Woz, Kristi Yamaguchi, and Bob Cialdini. Every episode will make you more remarkable.
With his decades of experience in Silicon Valley as a Venture Capitalist and advisor to the top entrepreneurs in the world, Guy’s questions come from a place of curiosity and passion for technology, start-ups, entrepreneurship, and marketing. If you love society and culture, documentaries, and business podcasts, take a second to follow Remarkable People.
Listeners of the Remarkable People podcast will learn from some of the most successful people in the world with practical tips and inspiring stories that will help you be more remarkable.
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