Monitoring the Situation #3: Who Is Nick Land?

0:00:01 Nick Glan’s work is very vibey.
0:00:03 It’s really vibey.
0:00:11 He has an intense, prosaic writing style that is provocative, intentionally grandiose.
0:00:16 What’s happening is new technology is being created, which is leading to a ton of demand for a thing,
0:00:20 which is exposing the fact that we don’t have a bunch of supply for that thing.
0:00:22 And so now a bunch of supply is getting built to unlock new demand.
0:00:26 And so new technology will get created, which will unlock new demand,
0:00:28 which will expose more supply that hasn’t been built.
0:00:33 And the flywheel will go, and that’s where we get, you know, prosperity and economic growth and, you know, GDP.
0:00:35 America at the finest.
0:00:37 Exactly. Like, this is what it’s all about, baby.
0:00:39 This is why we’re here, building companies in America.
0:00:43 In 2025, the grid is cracking under its own weight.
0:00:48 Data centers are multiplying, home batteries are surging, and the line between energy and tech is starting to blur.
0:00:53 On this third episode of Monitoring the Situation, I sit down with A16Z general partners,
0:00:58 Catherine Boyle and Aaron Pricerite, along with Zach Dell, the founder and CEO of Base Power,
0:01:00 to talk about the future of energy.
0:01:03 We dig into how to make local power generation affordable,
0:01:06 what most people get wrong about the data center build out,
0:01:08 and how we might actually fix the U.S. electricity grid.
0:01:12 Then, Catherine and I are joined by A16Z’s Eddie Lazarin
0:01:16 to discuss the philosopher shaping parts of Silicon Valley’s intellectual underground,
0:01:17 Nick Land.
0:01:18 Let’s get into it.
0:01:23 Zach, welcome to Monitoring the Situation.
0:01:25 Thank you for having me.
0:01:25 I’m excited to be here.
0:01:27 So, congrats on the Series C.
0:01:29 For people who are unfamiliar,
0:01:31 why don’t you explain Base, the company mission,
0:01:33 and we’ll get into the state of it today.
0:01:35 Yeah, Base is an energy technology company
0:01:38 working to bring affordable and reliable power to America.
0:01:41 So, we started the business almost three years ago now,
0:01:44 focused on Texas homeowners and selling batteries on their homes
0:01:46 and using those batteries as a grid resource
0:01:48 when the grid is up and running,
0:01:50 and then giving that battery capacity back to the homeowner
0:01:52 when the grid goes out to protect their home from power outages.
0:01:55 And we also sell power to the homeowners.
0:01:59 So, we’re able to save people on the order of 10% to 20% a month on their electricity bills.
0:02:02 That was kind of how we got started using off-the-shelf hardware,
0:02:03 all custom-built software.
0:02:05 And over the course of the last two and a half years,
0:02:08 we’ve really built out this vertically integrated strategy
0:02:10 where we’re now building our own batteries,
0:02:12 designing them, manufacturing them,
0:02:13 through our own installations,
0:02:16 owning them, operating these batteries in wholesale markets.
0:02:18 And now we’re starting to enter other markets.
0:02:21 So, we have a regulated utility partnership model
0:02:23 where we take our technology, our hardware, our software,
0:02:27 and we sell it to these utilities and help them do the same thing,
0:02:30 lower costs, increase reliability on the distribution grid.
0:02:33 So, really, the mission here is bring down the cost of electricity for all,
0:02:35 make power more affordable, more reliable,
0:02:37 do it through technology, vertical integration.
0:02:39 Yeah, that’s a quick high level.
0:02:44 I feel like people talk a lot about generation with data centers
0:02:46 and all new types of power.
0:02:50 And is it more gas plants or is it more solar or nuclear
0:02:54 and pulling generation closer to the actual usage?
0:02:57 But maybe talk to us about why energy storage
0:03:01 is such an important part of the puzzle in keeping electricity prices down.
0:03:04 Yeah, so, again, it all comes back to price, right?
0:03:07 Electricity is a commodity, and the best electron is the cheapest electron.
0:03:10 And when you think about electricity prices, there are two components to price.
0:03:12 One is the cost to generate the electron,
0:03:14 and the other component is the cost to move the electron.
0:03:17 And over the last 20 years, actually, the cost to generate electrons
0:03:20 has gone down very significantly, largely due to the build-out of solar.
0:03:22 Wind as well, but mostly solar, right?
0:03:24 So, cost to generate power has gone down,
0:03:27 but the total cost of the electron has gone up,
0:03:29 which means that the cost to move electrons,
0:03:30 the cost of distribution and transmission,
0:03:32 has gone up really significantly.
0:03:34 And this is because our infrastructure is aging,
0:03:36 and these poles and wires are breaking,
0:03:37 and they need to get replaced.
0:03:40 So, there’s a lot of capex that has to go into building out
0:03:42 this transmission distribution infrastructure.
0:03:46 And what we realized is poles and wires move power through space,
0:03:48 and batteries move power through time, right?
0:03:51 So, batteries and software are actually a way more efficient alternative,
0:03:54 and there’s a kind of academic term for this,
0:03:57 in NWA, non-wires alternatives, not the other NWA.
0:04:02 And it’s a very effective mechanism for driving down the cost of electricity,
0:04:05 because you can capture the decrease in the cost to generate the power
0:04:08 by really also helping bring down the cost to move the power
0:04:10 by having batteries on site.
0:04:12 So, we deploy batteries where the load is,
0:04:13 where interconnection is,
0:04:15 and that makes for a much more efficient system.
0:04:17 So, can I pop up for a second,
0:04:19 because I want to get back to your origin story,
0:04:22 which I feel like you were in a very unique position.
0:04:24 Remind us again, when you started the company,
0:04:26 but you had been thinking about energy
0:04:28 even a lot longer before BASE was founded.
0:04:31 And I was wondering if part of it was that
0:04:32 you were spending so much time in AI.
0:04:36 You know, it’s like ChatGPT had the big moment in November 2022.
0:04:38 You were an investor at Thrive.
0:04:41 Like, how were you thinking about energy
0:04:44 being such an important component of this AI revolution?
0:04:45 And what made you say,
0:04:46 okay, like, this is where we need to be spending time,
0:04:48 especially on the consumer side,
0:04:50 just given how energy is about to,
0:04:52 energy needs are about to explode.
0:04:56 Yeah, I mean, this was really a five-plus-year buildup for me.
0:04:59 I started working on energy projects in college, actually.
0:05:01 And I was kind of really in the weeds
0:05:05 working to develop a way to do anaerobic digestion
0:05:08 to turn human waste into biogas in rural parts of the world
0:05:11 to create low-cost energy and also a sanitation solution.
0:05:14 And that was a sticky, painful, messy problem,
0:05:15 to say the very least.
0:05:17 But that was kind of my first foray into energy.
0:05:18 And then actually, at the end of college,
0:05:20 I tried to put together this deal to go
0:05:23 lease a bunch of lava rock in Hawaii
0:05:24 and put solar panels on it
0:05:25 and sell the power back to the government
0:05:28 and went to a bunch of banks to try to get financing.
0:05:28 And they were like, what?
0:05:29 You’re in college.
0:05:30 Who’s going to manage this?
0:05:31 And I was like, okay, fair point.
0:05:32 Maybe this doesn’t make sense.
0:05:34 Then I ended up going to Blackstone
0:05:35 and I was on the private equity team there
0:05:37 and looked at a bunch of stuff
0:05:38 all across energy infrastructure.
0:05:40 And I think really when I was at Blackstone,
0:05:42 that’s where this paradigm shift hit me,
0:05:42 where I saw, okay,
0:05:44 the last five decades of energy
0:05:46 have been defined by coal and then natural gas.
0:05:48 And the next five decades
0:05:49 are going to be defined by solar and storage.
0:05:51 And really what that means is
0:05:52 the marginal megawatt,
0:05:53 the low-cost marginal megawatt
0:05:55 is going to be solar and storage.
0:05:56 And that is going to change the way
0:05:58 our energy infrastructure looks and works
0:06:00 and the way the value chain is kind of built out.
0:06:02 And this really stuck with me.
0:06:03 And then I left Blackstone, obviously,
0:06:04 and joined Thrive Capital.
0:06:07 And I got to see really exemplars
0:06:09 for companies that were innovating
0:06:10 and taking market share
0:06:13 from big incumbent-dominated industries
0:06:14 that were not engineering-led
0:06:16 or technology-driven R&D-focused.
0:06:18 Obviously, SpaceX and aerospace
0:06:19 and Anduril and defense
0:06:20 being the kind of core examples.
0:06:23 And this energy thesis kind of stuck with me.
0:06:23 It was like, well,
0:06:25 this paradigm shift is coming.
0:06:27 Energy is really the last great part
0:06:29 of the economy that’s gone undisrupted.
0:06:31 Why can’t we go do to energy
0:06:32 what those companies did
0:06:33 to those respective industries?
0:06:33 And then, of course,
0:06:35 towards the end of my time at Thrive,
0:06:37 we became large investors in OpenAI.
0:06:38 And to your point, Aaron,
0:06:41 started to see this massive tidal wave coming
0:06:42 of this data center build-out.
0:06:45 And I think found ourselves
0:06:47 in the midst of a generational increase
0:06:48 in electricity demand.
0:06:50 And now that has just reached
0:06:51 a total fever pitch.
0:06:53 And we’re seeing this insane build-out
0:06:54 of data centers in Texas,
0:06:56 you know, in Northern Virginia,
0:06:56 obviously, which we’ve been having
0:06:57 for a long time,
0:06:59 and really across the whole country.
0:07:00 And the constraint is electrons.
0:07:01 It’s not chips, right?
0:07:03 Like, the whole economy
0:07:04 has been kind of constrained
0:07:05 by electrons now,
0:07:07 which is a new phenomenon.
0:07:11 And so utilities are uniquely open
0:07:12 to new technologies, new solutions.
0:07:14 And so that’s been a really awesome opportunity
0:07:15 for us to build into.
0:07:16 Honestly, like,
0:07:18 I feel like we’re kind of like
0:07:19 staring down the barrel
0:07:21 or in the early innings of
0:07:23 basically the largest industrial build-out
0:07:25 that the U.S. has seen ever
0:07:26 in all of history,
0:07:28 bigger than every industrial build-out
0:07:29 that we’ve ever seen combined,
0:07:31 which is great news for us
0:07:32 as American Dynamism investors.
0:07:34 Like, we don’t have an industrial base.
0:07:36 We don’t have a military industrial base.
0:07:37 We don’t have all these other things.
0:07:39 So I’m grateful to AI, honestly,
0:07:41 for pushing us to figure out
0:07:43 a lot of these thorny challenges
0:07:44 that we’re going to have to figure out
0:07:45 if we want to be able to
0:07:46 win a war with China,
0:07:47 et cetera, et cetera.
0:07:49 Yeah, these are very good problems
0:07:50 to have, right?
0:07:51 What’s happening is
0:07:52 new technology is being created,
0:07:54 which is leading to a ton of demand
0:07:55 for a thing,
0:07:57 which is exposing the fact
0:07:57 that we don’t have
0:07:59 a bunch of supply for that thing.
0:08:00 And so now a bunch of supply
0:08:00 is getting built
0:08:01 to unlock new demand.
0:08:03 And so new technology will get created,
0:08:04 which will unlock new demand,
0:08:05 which will expose
0:08:07 more supply that hasn’t been built.
0:08:08 And the flywheel will go,
0:08:10 and that’s where we get prosperity
0:08:11 and economic growth and GDP.
0:08:12 America at the finest.
0:08:13 Exactly.
0:08:14 This is what it’s all about, baby.
0:08:15 This is why we’re here,
0:08:16 building companies in America.
0:08:18 So it’s the greatest time in history
0:08:19 to be building a company
0:08:20 in this great country.
0:08:21 Totally.
0:08:22 I will say the speed
0:08:23 also matters so much
0:08:25 because on monitoring the situation,
0:08:25 we spend a lot of time
0:08:26 on the internet.
0:08:27 And one of the memes
0:08:28 that’s really popped up recently,
0:08:30 both on the left and the right,
0:08:33 is, okay, all of this AI
0:08:34 is taking way too much energy
0:08:35 and it’s actually driving
0:08:37 consumer energy prices up.
0:08:38 It’s driving costs up.
0:08:40 It’s something that is not sustainable.
0:08:41 So I would love to hear
0:08:42 your thoughts on
0:08:44 how quickly you have to build,
0:08:45 what needs to be done.
0:08:46 I mean, in some ways,
0:08:47 Texas has figured out,
0:08:48 and maybe you can talk
0:08:49 a little bit about
0:08:49 why Texas is such
0:08:50 a unique place to build,
0:08:52 but Texas has figured out
0:08:53 how to deregulate
0:08:54 and to make things
0:08:55 much more affordable.
0:08:56 Maybe talk about
0:08:57 sort of what you could see
0:08:57 that as a model
0:08:58 for the country,
0:08:59 not only building,
0:08:59 but also sort of
0:09:00 the regulatory regime.
0:09:01 Yeah.
0:09:03 So price economics 101, right?
0:09:04 Price is a function
0:09:05 of supply and demand.
0:09:05 And when you have
0:09:06 a ton of demand
0:09:07 and low supply,
0:09:09 you have prices going up.
0:09:09 And that’s largely
0:09:10 what’s happening
0:09:11 in the energy space today.
0:09:13 In Texas,
0:09:13 you have,
0:09:14 to your point,
0:09:14 Catherine,
0:09:16 a competitive free market.
0:09:17 So market participants
0:09:19 are exposed to price signals,
0:09:20 and there’s a strong incentive
0:09:21 to go build
0:09:22 when prices go up, right?
0:09:22 And that’s why
0:09:24 Texas leads the nation
0:09:25 in solar and wind.
0:09:25 Now, it also happens
0:09:26 to sit in the middle
0:09:26 of the Sun Belt
0:09:27 and the middle
0:09:27 wind corridor,
0:09:28 which is really helpful,
0:09:29 but it’s got
0:09:31 liquid price signals.
0:09:32 And so there’s
0:09:33 a strong incentive
0:09:33 for developers
0:09:34 to ensure that market.
0:09:35 That’s why you’re seeing
0:09:36 a lot of these data.
0:09:36 I mean,
0:09:37 the second biggest
0:09:38 data center market
0:09:39 in the country
0:09:40 behind Northern Virginia
0:09:41 is Dallas-Fort Worth,
0:09:41 right?
0:09:42 And it’s really easy
0:09:43 to build there.
0:09:44 There’s a lot of developers
0:09:44 around.
0:09:46 You can interact
0:09:47 with the wholesale power markets
0:09:48 in creative ways.
0:09:49 And so I think,
0:09:50 and if you kind of
0:09:51 rewind the clock
0:09:52 and look at the early 2000s,
0:09:52 like,
0:09:54 why did so much
0:09:55 of the kind of
0:09:56 wind boom,
0:09:56 solar boom
0:09:57 happen in Texas
0:09:58 before other places?
0:09:58 Well, because it was
0:09:59 the first state
0:09:59 to deregulate.
0:10:00 Actually,
0:10:01 not the first.
0:10:02 California deregulated first,
0:10:02 and then Enron
0:10:04 put a quick stop to that.
0:10:05 And so Texas
0:10:05 kind of picked up
0:10:06 the torch
0:10:06 and ran with it.
0:10:07 And so you had a bunch
0:10:08 of developers
0:10:08 go to Texas,
0:10:09 and now Houston
0:10:10 is really the energy
0:10:11 capital of the country.
0:10:12 And that’s because
0:10:13 of this free market dynamic.
0:10:14 And so I think
0:10:15 that over time,
0:10:16 the more that we can expose
0:10:17 people,
0:10:18 companies,
0:10:19 organizations
0:10:20 to price signals,
0:10:21 the more innovation
0:10:21 we’ll have,
0:10:22 the more technology
0:10:23 we’ll get deployed,
0:10:24 and you’ll see prices
0:10:25 go down over time,
0:10:25 right?
0:10:26 Because demand goes up,
0:10:27 supply stays the same,
0:10:28 prices go up,
0:10:29 a bunch of supply
0:10:30 comes in to arbitrage
0:10:31 that away,
0:10:33 and then prices go down,
0:10:34 demand goes up again,
0:10:34 right?
0:10:35 And that’s what markets
0:10:35 are for.
0:10:36 So I’m optimistic
0:10:37 that we will see
0:10:38 prices come down
0:10:39 as more supply
0:10:40 gets built out,
0:10:40 but this is kind of
0:10:41 the natural cycles
0:10:42 of markets,
0:10:42 and I think
0:10:43 it’s largely healthy.
0:10:45 We’ve seen a little bit
0:10:45 of, you know,
0:10:46 we’re all excited about,
0:10:47 but there’s some backlash
0:10:49 to the sort of
0:10:50 data center surge
0:10:51 or build out.
0:10:52 What’s misunderstood
0:10:53 about,
0:10:53 or what do people
0:10:54 not fully appreciate
0:10:55 about what’s going on here?
0:10:58 Well,
0:10:59 I think it’s really easy
0:11:00 in, you know,
0:11:01 we’ve seen,
0:11:02 I mean,
0:11:03 I haven’t seen
0:11:04 all that many,
0:11:04 I’m not that old,
0:11:06 but there’s,
0:11:06 you get these boom
0:11:07 and bust cycles
0:11:07 all the time,
0:11:08 right?
0:11:08 You know,
0:11:09 whether it’s,
0:11:10 you know,
0:11:11 crypto or,
0:11:12 you know,
0:11:13 labooboos or whatever,
0:11:15 you’ve got just like
0:11:17 crazy hysteria
0:11:18 that happens around
0:11:20 big paradigm shifts
0:11:22 and big demand cycles,
0:11:23 and we’re seeing this
0:11:23 in AI, right?
0:11:24 It’s like,
0:11:25 we all remember
0:11:25 the first time
0:11:26 we used ChatGPT
0:11:27 and our minds were blown.
0:11:29 And, you know,
0:11:29 these products,
0:11:31 and then Claude came out
0:11:32 and Grock came out
0:11:32 and, you know,
0:11:33 all these new things
0:11:34 and, you know,
0:11:36 Cursor and Cognition
0:11:37 and all these new products
0:11:39 that our team uses every day
0:11:39 and all the companies
0:11:41 you work with use every day.
0:11:42 And that has created
0:11:43 this just insatiable
0:11:44 demand for compute.
0:11:46 And the build out
0:11:46 and the investment,
0:11:47 I mean,
0:11:49 the speculation in this market
0:11:50 is really unprecedented.
0:11:51 I mean,
0:11:51 you’re seeing,
0:11:52 you know,
0:11:53 I’ve got friends
0:11:54 that work at hedge funds
0:11:55 who have,
0:11:55 you know,
0:11:56 landman equivalents
0:11:56 of people
0:11:57 who are driving around Texas
0:11:59 just looking for land to buy
0:12:00 to put data centers on
0:12:01 and they’re just writing checks
0:12:02 blindly from their offices
0:12:02 in New York
0:12:03 because they’re like,
0:12:03 hey,
0:12:04 someone’s going to take this
0:12:05 off our hands
0:12:06 and, you know,
0:12:07 everyone and their cousin
0:12:09 is in the powered shell business now,
0:12:09 right?
0:12:10 And so,
0:12:11 you’re seeing just
0:12:12 incredible amount of speculation
0:12:13 and it’s like,
0:12:13 well,
0:12:14 are we overbuilding?
0:12:15 Are we underbuilding?
0:12:16 And the answer is like,
0:12:16 probably both, right?
0:12:17 Like,
0:12:18 we’re going to overbuild
0:12:19 and then we’re going to underbuild
0:12:20 and then we’re going to overbuild
0:12:20 and then we’re going to underbuild
0:12:21 and there’s going to be this,
0:12:23 just because it’s such a big part
0:12:23 of the market
0:12:24 and there’s so much demand
0:12:25 and there’s so much capital,
0:12:27 you’re going to have,
0:12:27 you know,
0:12:29 boom bust kind of market
0:12:29 economics play out.
0:12:30 So,
0:12:31 I don’t know that I have anything
0:12:32 all that intelligent to say about,
0:12:32 oh,
0:12:33 there’s this thing
0:12:34 that no one’s talking about
0:12:34 that’s,
0:12:34 you know,
0:12:35 under the scenes here.
0:12:35 You know,
0:12:37 one thing would be,
0:12:38 you know,
0:12:39 model efficiency,
0:12:39 right?
0:12:39 Like,
0:12:41 we saw the DeepSeq breakthrough
0:12:42 and I think there’s other things
0:12:43 kind of happening
0:12:45 with being able
0:12:46 to train these models
0:12:47 and run inference
0:12:48 in more efficient ways
0:12:49 that need less compute.
0:12:51 But,
0:12:51 you know,
0:12:53 it’s anyone’s guess
0:12:54 to determine like
0:12:55 where the compute
0:12:56 kind of battle
0:12:57 is going to end
0:12:57 and you’ve got these,
0:12:58 you know,
0:12:59 all these public companies
0:12:59 that their stocks
0:13:00 have gone totally crazy
0:13:02 and who knows
0:13:03 how it’s going to play out.
0:13:04 I think that there will be
0:13:05 a bit of a snapback
0:13:06 and then I think,
0:13:07 I do think the kind of
0:13:09 the steady march of demand
0:13:10 will keep going
0:13:10 and over time
0:13:11 we will need a lot
0:13:11 of this compute.
0:13:14 but it’s really hard
0:13:16 to get the supply-demand
0:13:16 math correctly
0:13:17 in the near term
0:13:18 and there will be
0:13:20 some ugly outcomes
0:13:20 as a result.
0:13:23 Yeah.
0:13:25 One thing that,
0:13:25 you know,
0:13:27 has been big in the news
0:13:27 this week,
0:13:30 at least for people
0:13:33 who read the news
0:13:33 in Chinese,
0:13:35 is the,
0:13:36 basically,
0:13:37 the closing down
0:13:39 of a lot of the
0:13:41 critical metals
0:13:42 and minerals
0:13:43 that are probably
0:13:44 upstream of you
0:13:44 in the supply chain
0:13:45 from China
0:13:46 would,
0:13:47 like,
0:13:48 you know,
0:13:49 how does that affect
0:13:51 this whole power build-out?
0:13:51 Like,
0:13:52 how are you guys
0:13:53 thinking about that?
0:13:53 What should we,
0:13:54 what should we all
0:13:55 be thinking about more
0:13:57 as we look towards
0:13:58 those upstream
0:13:59 Chinese supply chains?
0:14:00 Yeah.
0:14:02 I really have two minds here.
0:14:04 One,
0:14:04 which is maybe
0:14:05 not what you’re expecting
0:14:06 to say of it,
0:14:07 but is my real opinion,
0:14:08 which is like,
0:14:09 I believe a global economy
0:14:10 is a better economy.
0:14:10 It’s a bigger economy.
0:14:12 and I believe in,
0:14:13 you know,
0:14:13 free markets
0:14:14 and labor specialization
0:14:16 and I think that,
0:14:18 yeah,
0:14:19 a global economy
0:14:20 where we can collaborate
0:14:20 and coordinate
0:14:22 with large global powers,
0:14:23 whether it be China
0:14:24 or otherwise,
0:14:26 is good for the world.
0:14:27 But,
0:14:30 we are in a time
0:14:32 where there are
0:14:33 a bunch of forces
0:14:34 at play
0:14:35 and we have
0:14:37 a particularly
0:14:38 aggressive
0:14:39 president
0:14:39 with regards
0:14:40 to tariffs
0:14:41 and
0:14:43 if you are in
0:14:43 the business
0:14:44 of making things
0:14:46 and some of the things
0:14:46 that you need
0:14:48 are largely made
0:14:49 in China,
0:14:50 you’ve got to take matters
0:14:51 into your own hands
0:14:52 and,
0:14:52 you know,
0:14:53 we’ve been very loud
0:14:53 about this.
0:14:53 Like,
0:14:55 we accelerated our plans
0:14:56 to build a factory
0:14:56 in Texas
0:14:57 to make this stuff
0:14:58 ourselves
0:14:59 because of
0:15:00 what’s happening
0:15:01 in the geopolitical
0:15:02 arena,
0:15:03 right?
0:15:03 And so,
0:15:05 if you source
0:15:06 rare earths
0:15:06 or,
0:15:07 you know,
0:15:07 components
0:15:08 or batteries
0:15:08 or whatever
0:15:09 it might be
0:15:10 from China,
0:15:10 like,
0:15:10 you better have
0:15:11 a backup plan.
0:15:12 And there are
0:15:13 some things
0:15:13 that you can get
0:15:14 in other places
0:15:15 like Vietnam,
0:15:16 Indonesia,
0:15:17 you know,
0:15:18 Thailand,
0:15:18 Japan,
0:15:19 and there’s
0:15:20 some places,
0:15:20 some things
0:15:21 that you can’t
0:15:22 and you’re
0:15:22 going to have
0:15:22 to make yourself
0:15:23 and does it
0:15:23 make sense
0:15:23 to make them
0:15:24 in the U.S.
0:15:24 or should you
0:15:25 actually make
0:15:25 them in Mexico
0:15:27 or make them
0:15:27 somewhere else,
0:15:28 right?
0:15:29 It’s all about
0:15:30 transformation cost
0:15:30 and well,
0:15:30 actually,
0:15:31 you know,
0:15:32 where do you
0:15:33 this and how
0:15:33 are they assembled
0:15:35 and so there’s
0:15:35 no one size
0:15:36 it’s also not
0:15:36 like,
0:15:36 oh,
0:15:36 yep,
0:15:37 go ahead
0:15:37 and just
0:15:37 make everything
0:15:38 in the U.S.
0:15:38 Let’s just
0:15:38 like click
0:15:40 the reshore button
0:15:40 and then,
0:15:41 you know,
0:15:42 put a billion dollars
0:15:42 in the ground
0:15:43 and then it happens.
0:15:45 it takes time
0:15:46 and it’s all
0:15:46 nuanced
0:15:48 but, you know,
0:15:48 I’ll just speak
0:15:49 for base,
0:15:50 I mean,
0:15:50 we are doing
0:15:52 as much as we can
0:15:53 to control our destiny
0:15:54 here and make
0:15:55 as many of the things
0:15:56 that are core to us
0:15:57 that make sense
0:15:58 from a kind of
0:15:59 transformation cost
0:15:59 perspective
0:16:00 ourselves in Texas.
0:16:01 Now,
0:16:03 we also highly value
0:16:04 having engineering
0:16:05 and manufacturing
0:16:06 very close to each other
0:16:07 and having this
0:16:07 tight feedback loop
0:16:08 and iterations
0:16:10 and maybe not all
0:16:11 people value that
0:16:11 and so they want
0:16:11 to make stuff
0:16:12 elsewhere
0:16:12 and engineer
0:16:13 far away
0:16:14 and that’s fine too
0:16:14 and I think
0:16:15 it very much
0:16:15 depends on the
0:16:16 product strategy
0:16:17 and the kind of
0:16:17 company you’re building
0:16:19 so,
0:16:20 yeah,
0:16:21 it is a hard time
0:16:22 to be building things
0:16:23 because it’s just
0:16:24 always hard to build things
0:16:25 and,
0:16:26 you know,
0:16:26 I think the best thing
0:16:27 you can do
0:16:28 is kind of
0:16:29 take stock
0:16:30 of your situation
0:16:31 relative to your company
0:16:31 and the thing
0:16:32 that you make
0:16:33 and just figure out
0:16:34 the most strategic way
0:16:35 to control your own
0:16:35 destiny,
0:16:36 so to speak.
0:16:37 I will say
0:16:38 it’s pretty nice
0:16:39 to have a backup plan
0:16:40 where you can raise
0:16:40 a billion dollars
0:16:41 to build in Texas
0:16:42 like,
0:16:43 that’s a really
0:16:44 nice backup plan
0:16:45 and testament
0:16:46 to you all too.
0:16:47 Yeah,
0:16:48 it certainly helps
0:16:48 and we’re,
0:16:49 look,
0:16:49 we’re very grateful
0:16:50 for the support
0:16:50 of our investors
0:16:52 Andreessen included
0:16:53 who see this big vision
0:16:54 and it’s not,
0:16:55 we’re not like,
0:16:55 oh,
0:16:56 you know,
0:16:57 tariffs hit,
0:16:58 we need a billion dollars
0:16:58 because like,
0:16:59 our stuff’s getting
0:16:59 more expensive,
0:17:00 right?
0:17:00 It’s like,
0:17:01 okay,
0:17:02 we have a plan,
0:17:02 here it is,
0:17:03 this is what we’re
0:17:03 going to do,
0:17:03 this is how we’re
0:17:04 going to do it,
0:17:04 this is what it’s
0:17:05 going to cost,
0:17:05 right?
0:17:07 And so,
0:17:08 we’re going to execute
0:17:08 against that plan
0:17:09 as quickly as we can.
0:17:13 Just Building in Texas
0:17:13 because I think
0:17:14 a couple years ago
0:17:15 and,
0:17:15 you know,
0:17:16 we talk a lot about this
0:17:17 on the American Dynamism team,
0:17:17 it was like,
0:17:19 everything was concentrated
0:17:19 in California.
0:17:21 Saying you were going
0:17:21 to build in a new
0:17:23 ecosystem like Austin
0:17:23 was sort of seen
0:17:25 as radical or crazy
0:17:26 and like the sort of,
0:17:28 the kind of top line
0:17:29 kind of that everyone
0:17:30 would say is,
0:17:30 well,
0:17:31 there’s not enough talent.
0:17:32 Like,
0:17:32 you’re going to have
0:17:33 a hard time getting
0:17:34 the engineering talent,
0:17:34 as you said,
0:17:34 like,
0:17:35 manufacturing and engineering
0:17:36 need to be near each other,
0:17:37 how are you going
0:17:37 to be able to do that?
0:17:38 And so,
0:17:39 you were sort of proving
0:17:40 all the naysayers wrong.
0:17:42 Maybe talk about
0:17:43 why Texas is the future
0:17:44 and why if we’re looking
0:17:45 20 years out,
0:17:46 we might see
0:17:47 10 new,
0:17:47 you know,
0:17:49 physical world ecosystems
0:17:50 that are really benefiting
0:17:51 from this movement.
0:17:52 Yeah,
0:17:53 look,
0:17:54 I’m very biased here
0:17:54 because I was born
0:17:55 and raised in Austin,
0:17:56 so this is home for me.
0:17:57 But,
0:17:58 first of all,
0:17:59 Austin is an amazing place
0:17:59 to live.
0:18:00 It’s an amazing place
0:18:00 to build a family.
0:18:02 It’s got great schools.
0:18:03 It’s got great,
0:18:03 you know,
0:18:04 outdoor nature.
0:18:05 It’s got the arts.
0:18:05 It’s got music.
0:18:07 It’s got the Texas Longhorns.
0:18:07 It’s,
0:18:08 you know,
0:18:09 has all the charm
0:18:10 of a small city
0:18:11 and all the resources
0:18:12 of a big city.
0:18:13 It’s got the restaurants
0:18:14 and barbecue.
0:18:15 That’s important.
0:18:16 And barbecue,
0:18:16 right?
0:18:18 And great Mexican food.
0:18:18 And so,
0:18:19 the livability
0:18:20 is extremely high.
0:18:21 So,
0:18:21 you know,
0:18:22 we do a lot of relocating
0:18:23 people to Austin,
0:18:23 right?
0:18:23 We’re like,
0:18:23 hey,
0:18:24 you know,
0:18:25 and it’s a good selection
0:18:26 mechanism for people
0:18:27 who are really serious
0:18:27 because,
0:18:28 look,
0:18:29 we work really hard here.
0:18:29 Like,
0:18:30 this is an intense
0:18:30 place to work.
0:18:32 And if you’re not
0:18:33 willing to pick up
0:18:33 your life
0:18:34 and move to Austin,
0:18:35 like,
0:18:35 you’re probably just
0:18:36 not the right fit
0:18:37 for the company
0:18:38 because it’s just
0:18:38 been an intense
0:18:39 group of people.
0:18:41 And so,
0:18:42 we’ve been able
0:18:42 to relocate a lot
0:18:43 of people here
0:18:43 because it’s a great
0:18:44 place to live.
0:18:45 But the actual
0:18:46 fundamentals of the city
0:18:47 make it a really
0:18:48 good place to build.
0:18:49 It’s incredibly
0:18:49 pro-business.
0:18:51 There’s a massive,
0:18:52 highly,
0:18:52 you know,
0:18:54 competent set
0:18:55 of young,
0:18:56 college-educated
0:18:58 people coming out
0:18:58 of the University
0:18:59 of Texas.
0:19:00 Elon has built
0:19:01 Gigafactory here,
0:19:02 which has brought
0:19:03 tens of thousands
0:19:03 of incredible
0:19:04 engineers here,
0:19:04 many of which
0:19:05 we’ve hired.
0:19:07 And,
0:19:07 you know,
0:19:08 SpaceX now has a
0:19:10 site in Bastrop.
0:19:11 You know,
0:19:13 Amazon and Apple
0:19:14 and Meta and,
0:19:15 you know,
0:19:15 all of these companies
0:19:16 have big offices here.
0:19:17 So,
0:19:18 it’s become a
0:19:19 technology hub.
0:19:19 The hiring,
0:19:20 the local hiring pool
0:19:21 has gotten better.
0:19:22 Our ability to recruit
0:19:23 people here has gone up
0:19:24 as the city has gotten
0:19:24 better.
0:19:26 And as someone who
0:19:26 grew up here and,
0:19:27 you know,
0:19:27 spent the last,
0:19:28 you know,
0:19:28 whatever,
0:19:29 30 years here,
0:19:29 like,
0:19:31 the next 10 years
0:19:31 for Austin are going
0:19:32 to be a lot better
0:19:33 than the last 10 years.
0:19:33 And we’re kind of
0:19:34 hitting this inflection
0:19:34 point where it’s
0:19:35 becoming a major
0:19:37 metro in the country.
0:19:38 And so,
0:19:39 I’m extremely bullish
0:19:40 on the city.
0:19:40 And obviously,
0:19:41 our friends at
0:19:41 Seronic are building
0:19:42 a really incredible
0:19:43 hardware company here.
0:19:45 And we’re excited
0:19:46 about what they’re doing.
0:19:47 And there’s going to
0:19:48 be more behind us
0:19:48 that are,
0:19:48 that are,
0:19:49 you know,
0:19:50 building hard things,
0:19:51 doing hard work
0:19:52 here in Texas.
0:19:53 And it’s really
0:19:53 exciting to see.
0:19:54 Zach,
0:19:55 so,
0:19:56 modernizing the grid
0:19:57 is an important topic
0:19:58 that people talk a lot
0:19:58 about.
0:19:58 Obviously,
0:19:59 not the most,
0:20:00 the sexiest topic,
0:20:00 but,
0:20:01 you know,
0:20:02 I think it’s pretty sexy.
0:20:03 Exactly.
0:20:04 Yeah,
0:20:05 it needs to be done.
0:20:06 What,
0:20:07 why don’t you give an overview
0:20:08 of how the grid got so bad
0:20:09 in the first place
0:20:10 and what needs to happen?
0:20:12 Yeah,
0:20:12 so,
0:20:14 the back story here
0:20:15 is interesting
0:20:16 and complicated.
0:20:17 I mean,
0:20:18 the grid was largely
0:20:21 kind of federalized
0:20:22 and regulated,
0:20:22 right?
0:20:23 and,
0:20:24 you know,
0:20:25 in the early 1900s
0:20:26 when we started
0:20:27 building out
0:20:27 what is now
0:20:28 a grid infrastructure,
0:20:30 the available technology
0:20:30 was,
0:20:31 was less,
0:20:33 our kind of cities
0:20:34 were more rural.
0:20:35 You had to have
0:20:36 like a ton of coordination
0:20:38 to get these things done.
0:20:39 And so,
0:20:39 you had a lot of these
0:20:40 municipal utilities
0:20:41 get built out,
0:20:41 they’re,
0:20:42 you know,
0:20:42 run by the city.
0:20:44 And then over time,
0:20:45 you know,
0:20:47 you saw other parts
0:20:48 of the economy
0:20:48 deregulate,
0:20:49 right?
0:20:50 like,
0:20:51 you know,
0:20:52 trucking
0:20:53 and airlines
0:20:54 and telecom
0:20:55 and the grid
0:20:56 just largely didn’t.
0:20:57 And it stayed,
0:20:57 you know,
0:20:58 highly regulated.
0:20:59 And,
0:21:00 you know,
0:21:00 I think,
0:21:00 and,
0:21:03 I think that
0:21:04 when you have
0:21:05 parts of the economy
0:21:06 that are controlled
0:21:07 by the government,
0:21:08 you definitionally
0:21:09 have less innovation.
0:21:10 And so,
0:21:10 you know,
0:21:12 right now,
0:21:13 on the order of
0:21:14 40%,
0:21:15 50% of grid infrastructure
0:21:16 was built in the 60s.
0:21:17 And so,
0:21:18 there has not been
0:21:19 a strong incentive
0:21:20 when you have
0:21:21 monopolies,
0:21:21 you don’t have
0:21:22 competition,
0:21:23 there’s very little
0:21:24 incentive to innovate,
0:21:24 right?
0:21:25 Because there’s no
0:21:25 competition.
0:21:26 And so,
0:21:27 you have old
0:21:27 infrastructure
0:21:28 where there’s no
0:21:30 incentive to upgrade
0:21:32 it and rebuild it.
0:21:33 And so,
0:21:33 we have a system
0:21:34 that is basically
0:21:35 old and too small
0:21:35 is kind of the
0:21:36 punchline.
0:21:38 As I mentioned,
0:21:39 in the early 2000s,
0:21:39 late 90s,
0:21:42 this deregulate the grid
0:21:43 kind of movement
0:21:44 started in California.
0:21:45 It was quickly
0:21:46 kind of cut off
0:21:47 at the knees
0:21:48 around the Enron
0:21:49 situation.
0:21:50 Texas picked up
0:21:50 the torch,
0:21:51 deregulated,
0:21:52 and then a bunch
0:21:53 of states in the
0:21:53 Northeast followed.
0:21:54 But it kind of
0:21:55 stopped there
0:21:56 and a lot of the
0:21:56 country is still
0:21:57 regulated and
0:21:58 partially for good
0:21:59 reason.
0:21:59 I mean,
0:22:00 I think that
0:22:01 at least the
0:22:02 transmission distribution,
0:22:03 it does make sense
0:22:04 to have regulated
0:22:05 monopolies in that
0:22:05 part of the economy
0:22:06 because it doesn’t
0:22:06 make sense to have,
0:22:07 you know,
0:22:07 10 different power
0:22:08 lines running
0:22:09 through the
0:22:09 neighborhood,
0:22:09 right?
0:22:10 So,
0:22:12 it’s kind of like
0:22:13 the roads,
0:22:13 right?
0:22:13 Like,
0:22:14 most roads are not
0:22:15 privately owned.
0:22:16 It makes sense to
0:22:16 have these roads
0:22:17 owned by the
0:22:17 government,
0:22:18 but the cars
0:22:19 that drive on
0:22:20 them and the
0:22:20 kind of stores
0:22:21 that line them
0:22:23 are not government
0:22:23 owned.
0:22:25 And it’s kind of
0:22:26 like other,
0:22:26 you know,
0:22:27 there are proxies
0:22:27 in the economy.
0:22:29 when you have no
0:22:30 competition and
0:22:31 government regulation,
0:22:32 you don’t have
0:22:32 innovation and
0:22:33 you have very
0:22:33 little incentive
0:22:33 to upgrade.
0:22:34 So,
0:22:36 we have to
0:22:37 change that.
0:22:37 And we’re
0:22:38 starting by
0:22:39 entering the
0:22:40 deregulated market
0:22:41 of Texas where
0:22:42 there is an
0:22:42 incentive to
0:22:42 innovate and we
0:22:43 are exposed to
0:22:44 price signals.
0:22:45 And that’s why
0:22:46 Texas has become
0:22:47 a laboratory for
0:22:47 energy innovation
0:22:49 because it’s a
0:22:49 free market and
0:22:49 you can go
0:22:51 capture market share
0:22:52 and profits by
0:22:52 coming up with
0:22:53 great technology.
0:22:54 Now what we’re
0:22:55 doing is we’re
0:22:55 taking all the
0:22:56 technology we’ve
0:22:56 built over the
0:22:57 last two and a
0:22:57 half years in
0:22:58 Texas,
0:22:58 the hardware,
0:22:59 the software,
0:22:59 the deployment
0:23:00 operations,
0:23:00 and we’re
0:23:02 packaging it and
0:23:02 bringing it to
0:23:03 those regulated
0:23:04 utilities across
0:23:05 the country who
0:23:06 are seeing this
0:23:07 once-in-a-generation
0:23:08 power demand and
0:23:09 saying we need
0:23:09 technology.
0:23:10 And they know
0:23:10 that they’re not
0:23:11 really built for
0:23:12 R&D, right?
0:23:13 And so they need
0:23:14 a partner.
0:23:15 And we show up
0:23:15 and say, hey,
0:23:15 we are your
0:23:16 outsourced R&D.
0:23:17 We have this
0:23:17 technology we can
0:23:18 provide to you.
0:23:19 It’s going to
0:23:19 help you decrease
0:23:20 your costs and
0:23:21 increase your
0:23:21 reliability.
0:23:22 And I’m like,
0:23:22 okay, that
0:23:23 sounds pretty
0:23:23 interesting.
0:23:25 So we’re working
0:23:25 on partnering with
0:23:26 these regulated
0:23:28 them, right?
0:23:28 We’re here to
0:23:29 partner with them
0:23:29 and help them do
0:23:30 their jobs better
0:23:31 outside of Texas.
0:23:32 And in the other
0:23:33 deregulated markets,
0:23:33 we’re going to
0:23:34 compete in the
0:23:35 free markets,
0:23:35 right?
0:23:35 And I hope that
0:23:36 other competition
0:23:37 shows up, right?
0:23:38 Competition is good.
0:23:39 Competition equals
0:23:40 lower prices and
0:23:40 better services for
0:23:41 consumers.
0:23:41 And it will help
0:23:42 us do better at
0:23:43 our jobs.
0:23:43 So I hope there
0:23:44 are more energy
0:23:45 technology companies
0:23:45 that show up in
0:23:46 the competitive
0:23:46 parts of the
0:23:47 market and help
0:23:48 us push us to
0:23:48 do better.
0:23:49 And then conversely,
0:23:50 also go to the
0:23:51 regulated parts of
0:23:51 the market and
0:23:52 start building
0:23:53 technology and
0:23:54 doing R&D on
0:23:55 behalf of these
0:23:56 regulated utilities.
0:23:57 Yeah, I think
0:23:57 it’s a great
0:23:58 explanation.
0:23:58 I wonder if
0:23:59 that’s an
0:24:00 inspiring and
0:24:01 good note to
0:24:01 throw.
0:24:02 I like the
0:24:02 phrase by the
0:24:03 competition is
0:24:03 good because
0:24:05 zero to one
0:24:05 got so popular
0:24:06 people have
0:24:07 been less
0:24:08 excited about
0:24:08 competition as
0:24:09 it relates to
0:24:11 its overall
0:24:12 benefits to the
0:24:12 ecosystem.
0:24:13 So I appreciate
0:24:14 you calling that
0:24:14 out.
0:24:18 winning in
0:24:19 an uncompetitive
0:24:21 market is
0:24:22 like, that’s
0:24:23 not really a
0:24:23 thing, right?
0:24:24 Like any good
0:24:26 opportunity gets
0:24:26 competed.
0:24:28 If what you’re
0:24:29 doing is actually
0:24:30 that interesting
0:24:32 economically and
0:24:33 societal, like it
0:24:34 should be competed
0:24:35 on, right?
0:24:35 And someone should
0:24:36 show up and say,
0:24:37 hey, I want that
0:24:38 too, right?
0:24:38 So, you know,
0:24:39 right now, if you
0:24:40 said, hey, Zach,
0:24:40 who else is
0:24:41 working on this
0:24:42 in this way?
0:24:43 Like, actually,
0:24:44 there’s nobody
0:24:45 like, there
0:24:46 are other people
0:24:46 that make
0:24:46 batteries, there
0:24:47 are other people
0:24:48 that write software
0:24:49 for batteries, no
0:24:49 one has the
0:24:49 model that we
0:24:50 have, someone
0:24:51 better show up
0:24:52 soon or else
0:24:53 like, what we’re
0:24:54 doing clearly
0:24:55 isn’t working.
0:24:55 Now, I think it’s
0:24:56 working and the
0:24:56 market thinks it’s
0:24:57 working, the
0:24:57 business model
0:24:58 works, the
0:24:58 customers love
0:24:59 it, and so I
0:24:59 imagine that
0:25:00 someone will show
0:25:00 up soon.
0:25:02 Now, I think
0:25:03 we’ve got a nice
0:25:03 head start and,
0:25:04 you know, we’re
0:25:05 rather competitive
0:25:06 people, so, you
0:25:06 know, bring it
0:25:08 on, but I do
0:25:08 think that, like,
0:25:10 good, you know,
0:25:10 competitive markets
0:25:11 are healthy.
0:25:12 Totally.
0:25:13 Totally.
0:25:17 If you want to
0:25:17 read more about
0:25:18 base, Arena
0:25:20 Mag has the
0:25:21 definitive profile
0:25:22 of you guys and
0:25:22 what we’re
0:25:22 building in
0:25:24 Texas, check it
0:25:24 out this weekend.
0:25:27 Erin, did you
0:25:27 want to say
0:25:28 something?
0:25:28 Oh, I was just
0:25:29 saying, you
0:25:30 brought up Peter
0:25:31 Thiel, Eric, and
0:25:32 Zero to One, and
0:25:33 you know, it’s
0:25:34 better to not have
0:25:34 a competitor than
0:25:35 have a competitor.
0:25:38 And I loved Zach’s
0:25:39 spicy take.
0:25:41 And I remember, you
0:25:42 know, when I was at
0:25:42 Palantir, we talked
0:25:43 a lot about not
0:25:44 having a competitor.
0:25:45 And now every
0:25:46 company I talk to is
0:25:48 Palantir for XYZ.
0:25:50 So I imagine we’ll,
0:25:50 you know.
0:25:51 Yeah, Palantir has
0:25:51 tons of competitors.
0:25:52 NVIDIA has tons of
0:25:53 competitors.
0:25:54 In 10 years,
0:25:55 OpenAI, yeah.
0:25:56 OpenAI, tons of
0:25:56 competitors.
0:25:57 Name a great business
0:25:58 that doesn’t have
0:25:58 competition.
0:25:59 I mean, yeah.
0:26:01 Yeah.
0:26:02 Awesome.
0:26:03 Well, on that note,
0:26:04 Zach, thanks so much
0:26:04 for coming to the
0:26:04 Modern News
0:26:04 Situation.
0:26:06 Thanks for having
0:26:06 me, guys.
0:26:06 It was fun.
0:26:07 Great.
0:26:08 Well, we’re now
0:26:09 excited to have our
0:26:10 second guest on the
0:26:10 Modern News
0:26:11 Situation segment,
0:26:12 Eddie Lazarin, who’s
0:26:13 going to be talking to
0:26:14 us about who is
0:26:14 Nick Land.
0:26:16 Eddie, we’ve been
0:26:16 looking for an
0:26:17 excuse to bring up
0:26:19 Nick Land in A6Z
0:26:20 podcast for a while
0:26:21 now, and I think we
0:26:22 finally found it.
0:26:23 Tucker Carlson had
0:26:24 a guest on the
0:26:25 podcast which talked
0:26:26 about the Nick Land
0:26:26 phenomenon in
0:26:27 Silicon Valley and
0:26:28 how it’s inspired
0:26:29 AI, and there
0:26:29 were worried
0:26:31 about it being
0:26:32 sort of the
0:26:33 summoning of the
0:26:34 demons, so to
0:26:34 speak.
0:26:34 There was a great
0:26:35 profile on Tablet
0:26:37 on who is Nick Land.
0:26:38 Nick Land also went
0:26:38 on a podcast in this
0:26:39 debate with…
0:26:40 The current issue
0:26:40 of Tablet.
0:26:41 Yes.
0:26:41 Get yours.
0:26:42 Exactly.
0:26:43 And to Catherine,
0:26:45 Nick Land also did
0:26:45 a debate with
0:26:48 Alexander Dugan on
0:26:49 Mike Dyer’s podcast.
0:26:50 So in the news
0:26:51 right now, and
0:26:51 people are asking
0:26:53 who is Nick Land
0:26:53 and what is his
0:26:54 connection to
0:26:54 Silicon Valley?
0:26:56 Eddie, help us
0:26:56 make sense.
0:26:59 So I’ll say…
0:27:00 I will layer on
0:27:02 caveat after caveat
0:27:03 until maybe we get
0:27:03 an answer, right?
0:27:05 Like maybe that will…
0:27:06 Maybe that’s how we’ll
0:27:06 get there.
0:27:08 But so first I’ll say
0:27:09 like I don’t think
0:27:10 people need to
0:27:11 understand who Nick
0:27:12 Land is any more
0:27:12 than you need to
0:27:13 understand who Deleuze
0:27:15 and Guattari are or who
0:27:16 Hegel was or, you
0:27:18 know, who any of these
0:27:19 somewhat inscrutable
0:27:20 continental philosophers
0:27:21 are, right?
0:27:22 I don’t think that you
0:27:23 necessarily need to.
0:27:25 Although I think these
0:27:27 figures do have an
0:27:28 effect on mainstream
0:27:29 culture, they do.
0:27:30 It’s usually through
0:27:32 their ripple effect
0:27:33 over layers and
0:27:34 layers of culture as
0:27:35 they’re kind of
0:27:36 digested and
0:27:37 recomputed by
0:27:39 people, right?
0:27:39 We kind of achieve
0:27:40 an understanding of
0:27:40 them.
0:27:41 So I’ll say Nick
0:27:42 Land is that type of
0:27:42 figure.
0:27:44 So he’s incredibly
0:27:46 difficult to understand.
0:27:48 Not just because he’s
0:27:49 from an intellectual
0:27:50 school that’s hard to
0:27:51 understand, like the
0:27:51 continental
0:27:52 philosophers in
0:27:54 general, but because
0:27:56 the topics he chooses
0:27:57 to talk about are
0:27:58 themselves inscrutable.
0:28:00 His writing style is
0:28:02 inscrutable because it’s
0:28:03 sort of taking these
0:28:05 flourishes and density
0:28:06 from these famous like
0:28:07 20th century French
0:28:08 philosophers and stuff
0:28:08 like that.
0:28:10 Obviously he’s writing in
0:28:11 English and he’s very
0:28:12 much an Englishman, but
0:28:15 all these layers make it
0:28:16 incredibly difficult to
0:28:17 understand who Nick Land
0:28:17 is.
0:28:19 So first, if you have no
0:28:20 interest in continental
0:28:21 philosophers, if you have no
0:28:22 interest in this type of
0:28:23 thing, you don’t need to
0:28:23 know.
0:28:24 You’re good.
0:28:25 Turn it off.
0:28:27 Skip the podcast this
0:28:27 week.
0:28:28 Enjoy.
0:28:29 Have a good afternoon.
0:28:30 You know, whatever.
0:28:32 But if those types of
0:28:33 things are interesting to
0:28:35 you, then Nick Land is
0:28:36 very, very interesting.
0:28:37 And I find it.
0:28:38 I’m a huge fan.
0:28:38 I find it very
0:28:39 interesting.
0:28:41 What makes him
0:28:42 interesting is that he
0:28:43 takes a lot of the most
0:28:44 interesting post-industrial
0:28:47 revolution themes and he
0:28:48 modernizes them into an
0:28:51 ultra-modern cypherpunk
0:28:52 context.
0:28:57 right now, as I said, he’s
0:28:58 hard to explain, so I’m
0:28:59 being really reductionistic
0:29:00 here, right?
0:29:02 And I’m overly simplifying
0:29:02 what he is.
0:29:05 But Nick Land has had two
0:29:07 famous phases, two phases
0:29:07 in his intellectual
0:29:09 development, which is not
0:29:11 uncommon for people like
0:29:12 him, people who are kind
0:29:13 of playing in this really
0:29:15 complex mind space and
0:29:16 trying to make sense of
0:29:18 things using really high
0:29:19 level conceptual tools.
0:29:21 In his earlier phase, which
0:29:23 I think is maybe exemplified
0:29:24 by like this cool essay
0:29:25 called Meltdown from
0:29:28 1994, Nick Land was
0:29:30 taking all these themes
0:29:32 about industrial development
0:29:34 and capitalism and the
0:29:39 internet and cities and
0:29:42 the intensity and heat and
0:29:44 chaos and entropy of modern
0:29:46 culture as we saw it in the
0:29:48 90s and in the 70s and 80s
0:29:49 90s in a way we’d never
0:29:50 seen before.
0:29:52 And he’s trying to make
0:29:53 sense of it in terms of
0:29:55 its grand historicity.
0:29:56 What does it mean in the
0:29:58 big picture of the
0:29:59 development of humanity?
0:30:01 And during that period, I
0:30:02 think he was a little more
0:30:04 cynical about capitalism.
0:30:05 Like he kind of flipped his
0:30:06 views on how he thought
0:30:07 about capitalism,
0:30:08 technological development
0:30:10 as something that was
0:30:11 creating a lot of
0:30:13 problems for people, but
0:30:14 also something that was
0:30:15 brimming with incredible
0:30:16 potential.
0:30:18 In his more recent period,
0:30:21 maybe like since 2012,
0:30:22 2013-ish or something like
0:30:25 that, he has remained
0:30:26 focused on similar themes,
0:30:29 but he has kind of flipped
0:30:30 around a little bit where he
0:30:32 sees technological development
0:30:35 and the feedback loop of
0:30:37 capital and technology and
0:30:38 capital and technology and
0:30:39 money and capital and
0:30:42 technology as maybe
0:30:45 culminating a huge project.
0:30:46 Now, whether it’s a human
0:30:47 project or whether it’s a
0:30:49 project from an AI from the
0:30:50 future is kind of a complex
0:30:53 idea, but gets at another
0:30:55 theme of his, which is this
0:30:57 esoteric mysticism.
0:31:00 Now, I’m not a particularly
0:31:02 esoteric mysticism type
0:31:02 person.
0:31:04 I studied philosophy in
0:31:05 school, but I studied
0:31:06 analytic philosophy, which
0:31:08 is like the boring draw
0:31:11 math equations and
0:31:12 logic, you know, logical
0:31:13 explanations type
0:31:14 philosopher, the type who
0:31:17 maybe makes things clear at
0:31:18 the expense of them being
0:31:20 interesting, right?
0:31:22 But the continental school,
0:31:23 land school, is very much
0:31:24 the opposite, maybe.
0:31:25 Yes.
0:31:27 And leaning maximally into
0:31:29 interestingness, maybe at the
0:31:30 expense of clarity, right?
0:31:31 Yeah.
0:31:34 And I’d say that Land’s
0:31:37 unpacking of all these
0:31:39 ideas is often layered with
0:31:41 his esoteric tools, right?
0:31:43 And those are things like
0:31:45 the numagram, which I regret
0:31:46 I crunched up slightly, but
0:31:47 it doesn’t help.
0:31:48 It wasn’t going to make
0:31:49 sense anyway, right?
0:31:52 So the, I’m not going to
0:31:53 bother to try to explain the
0:31:54 numagram.
0:31:55 It’s actually a really cool
0:31:57 three-hour, 33-minute
0:32:00 podcast on YouTube where he
0:32:02 explains it in depth, but the
0:32:04 way that I maybe rationalize
0:32:06 it to myself is I think of it
0:32:07 like that brilliant friend of
0:32:08 yours who really does have a
0:32:10 great grasp of people, but
0:32:12 maybe relies on tarot as like
0:32:14 a, like a tool of their
0:32:16 brilliant, otherwise brilliant
0:32:17 psychologizing, right?
0:32:18 That’s kind of how I think
0:32:19 about it.
0:32:22 So what makes Land so
0:32:24 interesting to Silicon Valley
0:32:25 people, right?
0:32:25 Right, because that’s just a
0:32:26 pushback on the Hegel or
0:32:27 Deleuze, like they’re not
0:32:29 people who inspire, you know,
0:32:31 Silicon Valley in the same
0:32:31 way.
0:32:32 So Land is more relevant and
0:32:33 more pertinent.
0:32:34 And that’s because he takes a
0:32:35 lot of the interesting themes
0:32:36 from those philosophers.
0:32:37 I’m trying to avoid getting
0:32:38 like a little too deep into
0:32:39 the specifics.
0:32:40 I can’t, I can, and I’d be
0:32:42 happy to, but, but he takes a
0:32:44 lot of the themes that these
0:32:45 philosophers talk about and he
0:32:47 embeds them very, very
0:32:49 specifically in technological
0:32:51 progress, in the internet, in
0:32:52 what is new.
0:32:54 He has, and I say this like
0:32:55 very much being a part of the
0:32:56 crypto team and on the
0:32:57 crypto fund, he has probably
0:32:59 the most interesting, dense
0:33:01 treatment of Bitcoin as a
0:33:05 philosophical object that has
0:33:06 ever been written, for sure.
0:33:07 I’ve found super, super
0:33:09 interesting and always seems to
0:33:11 surprise me with ideas when I
0:33:11 go back to it.
0:33:14 It’s like a 150 page book or
0:33:14 so, right?
0:33:17 So part of what makes his
0:33:20 appeal so great is specifically
0:33:22 embedding these things in
0:33:24 contemporary technological
0:33:26 themes and developments, as
0:33:28 opposed to kind of waving the
0:33:29 hand and looking at like, I
0:33:31 would describe most philosophers
0:33:32 as kind of looking at
0:33:34 technological progress as
0:33:35 like, well, look, they’re
0:33:37 making more stuff faster, you
0:33:39 know, like, okay, they made
0:33:41 the pin factory 10 times
0:33:41 cheaper.
0:33:42 Wow.
0:33:43 Those industrialists, you
0:33:45 know, whereas I think
0:33:46 land identifies a qualitative
0:33:48 change, right?
0:33:50 In technological progress, we
0:33:53 see something maybe almost
0:33:53 spooky.
0:33:54 And I think that that’s where
0:33:57 that spookiness is what
0:34:00 Tucker’s guest was correctly
0:34:00 identifying.
0:34:03 Now, I think his analysis was
0:34:07 maybe not the way that I see
0:34:07 land.
0:34:09 And I think there was a lot of
0:34:11 projection from his personal
0:34:13 analysis of things.
0:34:16 I think that I really, I thought
0:34:17 it was very entertaining and fun,
0:34:18 but I, the truth is, I don’t
0:34:19 think it was particularly
0:34:19 accurate.
0:34:22 But he is correctly picking up,
0:34:24 at least, on the spookiness,
0:34:25 right?
0:34:26 There is something a little bit
0:34:29 spooky sometimes about the rate
0:34:30 that technological progress
0:34:31 compounds and the way that it
0:34:34 maybe erodes as the same time
0:34:36 that it adds on to the human
0:34:37 condition, right?
0:34:37 And I think that makes it
0:34:38 really interesting.
0:34:40 Now, I’ll say just to maybe
0:34:42 situate the prompt about Silicon
0:34:42 Valley a little bit more
0:34:44 specifically, I don’t actually
0:34:45 know that many people in
0:34:46 Silicon Valley who like Nick
0:34:46 Land.
0:34:47 I’m going to be honest.
0:34:48 It’s not like, it’s not like
0:34:49 you go around the streets of
0:34:50 San Francisco and you talk to
0:34:50 people.
0:34:53 This really cool book, this
0:34:54 compilation of Land’s blog
0:34:56 posts from Passage Press came
0:34:56 out.
0:34:57 Yes.
0:34:58 I think last year.
0:35:00 That’s what I was going to ask
0:35:03 because I, you know, I first, I
0:35:05 feel like Nick Land’s a name you’ve
0:35:06 heard if you’ve been in Silicon
0:35:08 Valley, but it’s also a name you’ve
0:35:09 heard if you’ve been in certain
0:35:10 circles online.
0:35:12 And I think the Passage Press point
0:35:14 is a very good point, right?
0:35:15 Like they were, they published
0:35:16 Ceno systems.
0:35:17 I’d love to get into what that is
0:35:18 and why it’s important.
0:35:22 But on the online right, he’s also a
0:35:24 figure that people care about.
0:35:26 And now that he’s sort of mainstreamed
0:35:27 into like the mainstream online
0:35:29 right with Tucker, curious why you
0:35:31 think those worlds are colliding
0:35:33 because his work, if you, you know,
0:35:34 that I think, and again, I think
0:35:36 the tablet piece that came out a
0:35:37 couple of weeks ago goes through
0:35:39 like the entire history of what
0:35:39 he’s done.
0:35:42 He’s not really a typical like
0:35:44 American right figure, right?
0:35:45 Like he doesn’t really fit that
0:35:46 context.
0:35:48 He was, he’s, you know, at the, at
0:35:50 the, um, it was at University of
0:35:50 Warwick.
0:35:52 Was that in England?
0:35:54 And then he moved to Shanghai,
0:35:54 right?
0:35:55 Like he’s not really part of a
0:35:57 American politics or American
0:35:59 culture, yet he’s had an influence
0:36:01 on these, these kind of very small
0:36:01 pockets.
0:36:03 So I would just be curious, maybe
0:36:04 we’d start with what is Zeno
0:36:05 Systems and the book from Passage
0:36:07 Press, and then how does he fit
0:36:09 into all of these weird subcultures
0:36:11 in a, in a peculiar way, but, but
0:36:12 doesn’t necessarily, you know, as
0:36:14 you said, you’d be hard pressed to
0:36:15 find someone in Silicon Valley who’s
0:36:17 read a lot of Nick Land’s work.
0:36:19 Yeah, no, yeah, I don’t, I really
0:36:21 honestly, I don’t, of course, I
0:36:22 don’t mean this in a disparaging
0:36:22 way.
0:36:24 I don’t really see Nick Land’s
0:36:25 ideas as being like broadly
0:36:27 influential in Silicon Valley in the
0:36:28 way maybe they were characterized in
0:36:29 the Tucker Project.
0:36:30 But there’s just kind of this, the
0:36:31 accelerationist thing leading to, yeah.
0:36:34 Yeah, so, so distillations of some
0:36:36 of the ideas that have been kind of
0:36:38 like reimagined and digested have
0:36:39 made their way in.
0:36:40 And part of that is because, and this
0:36:43 is, I’m going to, maybe this is a
0:36:45 funny way to try to put it, is that
0:36:47 Nick Land’s work is very vibey.
0:36:47 Yeah.
0:36:47 Okay.
0:36:49 It’s really vibey.
0:36:49 Okay.
0:36:50 If you go look at that meltdown
0:36:52 piece from 94, you look at a random
0:36:55 essay from Zeno Systems, like he has a,
0:36:59 intense, prosaic writing style that is
0:37:04 provocative, intentionally inflammatory, not
0:37:07 inflammatory, intentionally grandiose, right?
0:37:10 And he can create a lot of imagery in his
0:37:10 work.
0:37:13 So the way he describes acceleration is
0:37:15 it’s more than just like making the pins
0:37:16 faster and cheaper.
0:37:19 Acceleration is like almost an, you know,
0:37:22 it’s like a world changing project, right?
0:37:24 He describes Bitcoin as like maybe the
0:37:26 most profound thing that’s happened on the
0:37:26 internet, right?
0:37:29 Like, like, like he, he, he has incredible
0:37:31 theater to what he says that comes from the
0:37:32 continental school.
0:37:34 So people have taken that and really
0:37:35 enjoyed that, right?
0:37:37 Like, uh, I think if you read any of his
0:37:39 stuff, you’ll, you’ll see that.
0:37:41 So like, what is, what is Zeno Systems and so on?
0:37:44 So I’ll say what his presence in the online
0:37:48 right, Zeno Systems, on the online right, he is a
0:37:52 very, he, he got there in an interesting way, right?
0:37:55 I, I think, uh, if people are kind of familiar with
0:37:56 horseshoe theory, right?
0:37:57 Right.
0:38:01 Uh, Land was not, has not always been like a
0:38:01 figure on the right.
0:38:05 In fact, many have described his earlier phase with
0:38:09 the, uh, with the CCRU kind of this like, uh, ragtag,
0:38:13 very interesting, very, uh, artistically, uh, sensitive,
0:38:18 uh, uh, uh, uh, writing group, basically art, art
0:38:18 group.
0:38:19 I think of them as an art group at least.
0:38:22 Uh, they would have described them as actually on the
0:38:23 far left, right?
0:38:27 As if a far on the anti-capitalist left and his
0:38:29 arrival on the right was kind of jumping across the
0:38:31 gap in the horseshoe, so to speak.
0:38:35 A very good friend of mine, a philosopher who, who
0:38:38 identifies as more of a communist, a college friend
0:38:41 of mine, he says like, I often feel like when I read
0:38:44 Nick Land that I could like reach across and like kiss
0:38:47 him over the, the gap in the, in the horseshoe, right?
0:38:51 So he’s a, I wouldn’t say that he’s a representative
0:38:53 figure of Silicon Valley.
0:38:55 I don’t think that’s, I don’t think Silicon Valley
0:38:55 is like this, right?
0:39:01 Uh, but he is a fantastic poster and very insightful
0:39:03 and cutting and controversial.
0:39:05 Uh, and I think that that has made him very exciting
0:39:08 and very interesting to the right, uh, to the online
0:39:10 right recently, because the online right doesn’t really
0:39:12 have this type of voice, right?
0:39:15 Someone with, uh, you know, deep in the continental
0:39:17 weeds, so to speak.
0:39:20 And so what explains his shift from left to right,
0:39:20 basically?
0:39:23 Uh, you know, it’s, it’s funny.
0:39:26 He hasn’t really explained that himself, right?
0:39:30 Nick, Nick Land, I mean, if you read his themes, it’s not
0:39:33 like the subject of his attention has changed totally.
0:39:36 It has certainly evolved and there’s all kinds of things
0:39:38 he posts about and talks about today that he, in the
0:39:41 past and, you know, so he, he has certainly evolved, but, uh,
0:39:44 he kind of disappeared for a while and then he just kind
0:39:48 of came back and everything had changed, right?
0:39:50 And, and, and now he just writes from that perspective, very,
0:39:54 I can say the types of things that he believes, right?
0:39:58 Um, uh, you know, like he’s very preoccupied with liberalism.
0:40:01 When I say liberalism, I mean, in the European sense, right?
0:40:05 Where like big capital L liberalism, like, you know, right liberals
0:40:09 and left liberals being like generally the American political landscape,
0:40:13 right in the freedom, uh, you know, individualist sense.
0:40:17 Uh, he’s very preoccupied with like liberalism in the West and
0:40:21 like what that means and, uh, how it has evolved and in particular
0:40:25 how it has pathologized in some ways and evolved into like
0:40:29 contemporary progressivism, which he sees as like not just its own
0:40:34 kind of isolated political, uh, system, but as something that is
0:40:40 clearly identifiable as an evolution of, uh, of
0:40:46 Protestantism, of, uh, older liberalism, of the change in, uh, the makeup
0:40:49 of the, of the, of the Western electorate and so on.
0:40:54 But the debate he was having with Dugan was whether, um, that’s kind of
0:40:58 endemic to, to liberalism or whether that was just a, you know, mutation,
0:41:01 but not necessarily inherent to the form.
0:41:01 Yeah.
0:41:05 Yeah. So those types of themes are part of why he’s, uh, also so
0:41:09 interesting to the right, because I think a lot of people on the online
0:41:12 right today, and I don’t mean like the whole right, remember I’m speaking in
0:41:16 generalities obviously, but I’m talking about the type of people who are very
0:41:21 interested in trying to take a diagnostic lens to what has happened in
0:41:27 American politics and American culture over the last 20, 30 years, maybe, uh,
0:41:31 in light of the internet specifically and trying to understand it in its big
0:41:34 historical frame. Right. And that’s, that’s an interesting project. It’s a
0:41:38 difficult project. I don’t pretend that he has the answers necessarily. I don’t
0:41:41 think he would even, I mean, he’s trying to understand it. It makes him
0:41:41 interesting.
0:41:46 Yeah. Yeah. No, I just thought the, the, the Tucker podcast was fascinating how it
0:41:50 sort of brought together these sort of weird cultural things. Again, if you’re truly
0:41:54 monitoring the situation, there are things happening, uh, across the internet,
0:41:59 like discussion of revelation, the antichrist, um, and really linking Nick
0:42:04 Land and accelerationism to sort of this bigger question of, are we at the end of
0:42:08 the world? And I’m very curious, was that more of like the, the Tucker framing of
0:42:12 it? Or is that like actually part of Land’s work that we hit? I mean, I know he’s, he’s
0:42:16 talked a lot about singularity and sort of these forces coming together. I’ve never, I’ve
0:42:20 never thought of his work as like end of the world project. So I’m curious how it’s
0:42:20 getting lumped.
0:42:25 Yeah. I mean, he does see history as this grand project, right? And he is very
0:42:28 preoccupied with the shape of history and the shape of time. A lot of really
0:42:34 interesting, crazy sci-fi themes in there, but I don’t really, I, you know, he, he’s
0:42:39 somebody that I’m sure could hold a conversation about like the antichrist and so
0:42:43 on and, uh, eschatology and the Western tradition. That is something he’s talked
0:42:48 about now and then, but I don’t see that as a key theme in his works. And like, you
0:42:51 know, as an example, that’s not a key theme in Zeno systems, right? Like the book
0:42:57 that like kind of has, uh, uh, reignited some interest and some attention in his
0:43:02 work. Uh, you know, I, I, I, I say this, I’m not, this is not like a, uh, content
0:43:07 content warning. I’m not that, but, but, but, you know, I’d say if you’re the type
0:43:11 of person that wants to clutch their pearls and like get upset about like things that you
0:43:15 read, then don’t, don’t read Zeno systems, right? But, but if you’re the type of person
0:43:21 that wants to read a wide array of ideas from someone whose dedication as a philosopher to
0:43:27 unfettered idea work, and you can appreciate the sort of sloppiness and craziness of someone
0:43:31 who’s really trying to think through things, then I think that it’s a really interesting piece
0:43:34 from a perspective that isn’t, uh, is, is pretty uncommon.
0:43:38 Yeah. The, the one thing that really came out, um, from a lot of the conversations and
0:43:43 discourse happening this week on him is like, I actually don’t think Silicon Valley has its
0:43:47 own philosophical community. Like there, there aren’t like, you can’t point to someone in
0:43:52 Silicon Valley and say, this is the, the key philosopher because most people in Silicon
0:43:55 Valley are doers and they’re building things and they have a very different way of how they
0:44:00 interact with whether it’s their art or their projects. Um, and so I guess is, is, is part
0:44:06 of this that we just lack such a philosophical culture that maybe he’s getting credit for
0:44:08 something that’s very, very distinct.
0:44:12 I, I, I, I agree with that. I think that’s a great read. And in fact, I’d extend that read
0:44:15 something that’s been, I’m amazed to mention this on a podcast. This is kind of like an
0:44:20 Eddie shower thought here. Right. But, but like, but I’ve, I’ve for some time, because I told
0:44:25 you, I, I did philosophy in school. It’s been like a long time interest of mine. Right. I, I kind
0:44:31 of have this like lingering belief, I, you know, not, not something I’m totally sure about, but
0:44:37 like a feeling that I think a lot of the great philosophers were epiphenomenal to use a philosophy
0:44:43 word, which means that their work was sort of capturing what was already in the spirit
0:44:49 of the culture that they were occupying and that they may have made the, and in their, a
0:44:54 lot of their works that is not always the case, but a lot, a lot of the time we’re actually
0:45:00 doing a brilliant job, capturing the spirit of the times and capturing what thinkers were
0:45:06 working on. And we look back on them as causal, as causal, right. As having caused those periods.
0:45:13 But in fact, they’re just taking a beautiful crystallized snapshot that now becomes, you know,
0:45:21 retroactively, uh, representative of that period. Yes. I think moving to Silicon Valley, uh, gave
0:45:28 me conviction in this belief because I thought of when I came to Silicon Valley in 2011, when I
0:45:33 came by, I thought that to embark on such grand projects, I always heard about the incredible
0:45:38 ambition of Silicon Valley. You know, I, that was always something that stuck out to me, like
0:45:44 the massive, the willingness to change the world, but this sort of craziness. I thought of this
0:45:48 as something that required a distinctly philosophical motivation, if not a spiritual motivation, right?
0:45:52 I thought of it as something that required this. And so I thought that when I came to Silicon
0:45:58 Valley, I’d meet a bunch of people who adhered to very specific, you know, explicitly held in their
0:46:06 hearts, these types of systems and they don’t at all, right? They don’t at all. And what, what
0:46:12 actually is the case is that people live in this, it’s like a fish in water, right? They just kind of like
0:46:20 swim in this culture. And some people can, are so good at getting a little grip on it and, and like
0:46:26 capturing it in words, its spirit in words, the aphorisms, if not full, fully developed philosophical
0:46:33 treaties, right? Uh, and, uh, and land captures some of that, some of the, I would say the kind of more,
0:46:40 some of the most extreme and interesting cypherpunk elements of it for sure. Uh, and he has gone on an
0:46:48 interesting evolutionary journey that, uh, many have in their reaction to the internet, but I don’t see
0:46:57 it as causal, right? I don’t think people are acting out developing AI following Nick land. Like I,
0:47:05 that’s, that’s honestly absurd to me, but instead Nick lands like profound enthusiasm about it and his
0:47:11 seeing extreme consequences in its development is something that a lot of people in Silicon Valley
0:47:17 share for a variety of other reasons. Yeah. One thing I think he’s also very good at that Silicon
0:47:22 Valley actually understands and sort of the, the builder culture versus the thinking culture is he’s,
0:47:27 he’s extremely good at memes and extremely good at naming things. And Silicon Valley cares about that,
0:47:32 right? So it’s like, of course, accelerationism is like a beautiful, it’s a beautiful concept,
0:47:35 there’s a beautiful word. And it’s also something that sticks, right? Like we need those words.
0:47:41 So I guess there’s something about that too, where we’re so devoid as an ecosystem of writers and
0:47:46 thinkers, because people don’t come to Silicon Valley to write, they come to Silicon Valley to build. And
0:47:52 if you come as a writer, you get co-opted into some aspect of our ecosystem where you’re not writing in
0:47:58 many ways that it just, it feels like, um, he’s, he’s, he’s kind of connected at places where,
0:48:02 you know, our, our world actually understands certain parts of the language, even if we don’t
0:48:08 understand the actual doctrines. Oh, totally. Totally. And some people make this critique that
0:48:13 they say, Hey, accelerationism is some people had this view that it was kind of like, um, you know,
0:48:18 burn it all down, but we, we needed to, the move, things needed to be burned down to, to get better
0:48:22 and sort of accelerate that. That’s like one branch of it. Yeah. But that we’ve sort of,
0:48:26 Silicon Valley has sort of adopted that to mean, uh, that term acceleration, but in a more positive,
0:48:32 like, you know, build up in, in some sense. And, and some people would critique and say, Oh,
0:48:36 because we’re doing that, we’re like, we don’t quite understand the original philosophy or something.
0:48:39 But maybe the fact we’re just using it for our own purposes, you know?
0:48:43 Yeah. Well, well, but, but the, the, the history of thought is full of these types of
0:48:48 versions of co-opting like left accelerationism, right? Which is like this idea
0:48:55 that you heighten the contradictions of capitalism by like being faster, bigger, make the pin factory
0:48:59 a thousand times bigger, make the planet a pin factory. Right. And then like, then like it will
0:49:05 eventually detonate and then we can return to whatever communists think, but then, but of course,
0:49:09 right acceleration, like I, in fact, I’d say, I think there’s a lot of nuance in right acceleration.
0:49:15 There are some people who think that it leads to kind of a bizarre cataclysm and there are in a good
0:49:19 way, whatever that means. And then there are some people that think of it as just a fundamentally
0:49:25 productive project. Yeah. Right. Is like, uh, abundance creates abundance, creates abundance,
0:49:30 right? Uh, acceleration creates acceleration. And we’ve enjoyed these fruits so far. Why not?
0:49:37 Why not more? Yeah. So could I ask, you know, for, for people who have heard a couple of podcasts this
0:49:43 week and are like, actually, I’m really interested. For the novice, where do you begin? What’s the most
0:49:48 interesting work to dive into first? Like where, where would your sort of Eddie’s tour of Nick Land
0:49:52 begin? Well, like I, like I said at the beginning, the truth is you don’t need to understand Nick Land.
0:49:57 It’s okay. Turn off the podcast, touch grass and, uh, do your thing. You don’t need to.
0:50:02 What is it? Show us the picture again. Just show us. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Do you really want to
0:50:05 understand this? Do you really want to understand the new program? It’s the, uh, it’s sunny in Philadelphia.
0:50:10 Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I don’t, I don’t think you do, but if you, but if you really do want to
0:50:17 understand these types of things, like, uh, I’d say bring, uh, bring an LLM along to support you
0:50:21 because there’s all kinds, it’s a very dense, his work is very, very dense, full of references
0:50:28 to other philosophers and specific phrases and framings. I think Xeno systems is a great place to
0:50:33 start. Uh, if you want to just get the vibe, I think that meltdown essay is really good. It’s,
0:50:37 you know, again, content warning or whatever, but I think that that’s a great way to get the vibe.
0:50:42 Um, yeah, I think that’s, I mean, I could say more, maybe I’ll put some links in the, in the notes.
0:50:47 Uh, he’s also great on podcasts. He’s such a, it’s so funny. We hear this. I remember the first time I
0:50:53 heard of him like 15 years ago or so. I, I, I remember he was explained to me as a menacing figure
0:50:59 almost, which is incredible in retrospect. But, uh, if you listen to him on one of the podcasts,
0:51:03 he’s like the most gentle guy, he’s like the sweetest guy. He’s like literally the sweetest guy.
0:51:07 I can’t even, I mean, I’ve never, I’ve never met him, but he seems like a very,
0:51:14 and very clear, a very clear, very careful, very deliberate with his words, uh, type of guy. Um,
0:51:19 I think you’ll enjoy it. You might have to play things at 1.5 X. That’s not, I, I, I recommend the
0:51:24 same thing for my, my stuff, my videos for what it’s worth. But, um, yeah, I think just, you know,
0:51:30 just, just dive in. And I think I’ve been pretty impressed candidly with the, the ways, uh, LLMs,
0:51:34 especially when you give them some think time and you let them look at some links, they do a really
0:51:39 good job of putting things into very legible form. So. I think it’s a good place to, good place to
0:51:42 wrap. Eddie, thanks for coming on. Thanks so much for coming.
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