Oleksandra Matviichuk: Fighting for Justice and Human Dignity in Ukraine

0:00:12 I’m Guy Kawasaki and this is Remarkable People.
0:00:15 We are on a mission to make you remarkable.
0:00:20 And helping me in this episode is Alexandra Matvychuk.
0:00:23 She is a human rights lawyer based in Ukraine.
0:00:29 Since 2012, she has served on the advisory council under Ukraine’s Parliamentary Commissioner
0:00:30 for Human Rights.
0:00:38 And in 2017, Alexandra became the first Ukrainian woman to participate in Stanford University’s
0:00:40 Emerging Leaders Program.
0:00:46 Following the violent suppression of protests in 2013, she coordinated the EuroMate and
0:00:51 SOS initiative to legally assist persecuted protesters.
0:00:59 She has spearheaded global campaigns such as #LetMyPeopleGo and #SaveOlegSensov to
0:01:03 free prisoners of conscience detained by Russia.
0:01:09 Among many other awards, Alexandra was named Ukraine’s 2017 Woman of Courage by the U.S.
0:01:10 Embassy.
0:01:18 And in 2022, she co-received the Nobel Peace Prize along with the Center for Civil Liberties.
0:01:22 Get ready for a really powerful episode.
0:01:27 She is our first Nobel Prize winner on the Remarkable People podcast.
0:01:34 I’m Guy Kawasaki, and now here is the remarkable Alexandra Matvychuk.
0:01:40 Many people are familiar with lawyers in terms of maybe family law or criminal law, but I
0:01:46 think a lot of people listening to this podcast may not be familiar with human rights lawyers.
0:01:50 So could you please explain what a human rights lawyer does?
0:01:54 Human rights lawyers defend human rights and human dignity.
0:02:01 I was born in Ukraine, and this is a country which has a lot of issues with human rights,
0:02:07 because we restore our independence only in the 19th when Soviet Union collapsed.
0:02:15 And all these years, we are trying to build sustainable state institutions like court,
0:02:18 which can produce justice for people.
0:02:25 And in such a country where institutions are not strong and effective, there are a lot
0:02:32 of problems with freedom of speech, with freedom of assembly, with right to fear trial, etc.
0:02:39 And that’s why the work of human rights lawyer is to help this state institution to work
0:02:41 in a proper way.
0:02:48 This work changed from time to time because ten years ago, we obtained a chance for democratic
0:02:53 transition because the authoritarian regime in Ukraine collapsed, and it opened for us
0:02:57 a path for democratization.
0:03:03 But in order to stop us on this way, Russia invaded, and Russia occupied Crimea, part
0:03:09 of Lugansk and Donetsk regions, and two years ago extended this war to the large-scale invasion.
0:03:17 So now the work of human rights lawyer for all these ten years is connected with protection
0:03:22 of people for international crimes, which Russia committed in the occupied territories
0:03:25 and in the frame of this war.
0:03:29 Could you describe the kind of cases that you handle?
0:03:35 We was the first human rights organization who sent mobile groups when the war started.
0:03:42 One important point, this war started not in February 2022, like International Community
0:03:49 think, this war started in February 2014, after the Revolution of Dignity, when authoritarian
0:03:51 regime in Ukraine collapsed.
0:03:58 So we sent these mobile groups, and we started to document war crimes.
0:04:04 And I personally interviewed hundreds and hundreds of people who survived Russian captivity,
0:04:10 and they told me horrible stories, they told me how they were beaten, raped, smashed into
0:04:16 wooden boxes, electrically shoved through their genitalia, their fingers were cut, their
0:04:20 nails were turned away, their nails were drilled.
0:04:25 One woman told me how her eye was dug out with a spoon.
0:04:31 We sent numerous reports to international organizations and foreign governments, to
0:04:39 UN, to Council of Europe, to OECE, to European Union, to all human rights mandatories, which
0:04:46 can be useful in this situation, but this practice didn’t stop Russia ignore all provision
0:04:48 of international law.
0:04:54 And as a human rights lawyer, I find myself in situation when the law doesn’t work.
0:05:00 And all international instruments on the international level are not working, they are not appropriate.
0:05:07 It can’t help me to save people from captivity and stop torture.
0:05:15 That’s why we change our strategy and we start to organize international campaign.
0:05:22 The most successful was several years before our scale war started, it’s called Save Alexinsov
0:05:28 Global Action, devoted to release of Ukrainian film producer Alexinsov, who was illegally
0:05:34 detained by Russia in Crimea, as well as other Ukrainian political prisoners.
0:05:39 And we united people in 35 countries in the world.
0:05:46 We start with simultaneous demonstrations in these countries and it provides energy,
0:05:53 essential energy like a kick to international mechanism to work in a proper way.
0:05:59 And to make a long story short, Alexinsov and dozens of Ukrainian political prisoners
0:06:03 were released by Russia as a result of this campaign.
0:06:10 Now, unfortunately, situation is much more difficult because now we are in a large scale
0:06:17 war and Russia stopped to pretend that Russia is civilized country.
0:06:36 So today, what is a successful resolution of a case?
0:06:39 What is justice for these victims today?
0:06:48 Oh, it’s a good question because I work with people who went through the hell, literally.
0:06:53 And I know that people see justice very differently.
0:06:59 For some people justice means to see their perpetrators under the bars.
0:07:06 For other people justice means to get compensations and without this they will feel unsatisfied.
0:07:10 For some people justice means just to know the truth.
0:07:12 What happened with their beloved ones?
0:07:20 For another people justice means just opportunity to be heard and to get public recognition
0:07:26 that something which happened to them and their family is not just immoral but illegal.
0:07:33 This means that we as human rights lawyers have to build a sustainable and very comprehensive
0:07:39 justice strategy with different elements and appropriate infrastructure to reach all these
0:07:44 human needs because all these aspects is justice.
0:07:51 Now, are you working on individual cases or using an American term?
0:07:53 Is it a class action?
0:07:57 Are you trying to work with tens of thousands of people, just a few human rights lawyers?
0:07:59 How does this scale?
0:08:08 We work with individual cases, but my goal is to change this wrong wiring, not just to
0:08:12 everyday try to reach and to liquidate fires.
0:08:18 When large scale war started, we united our efforts with dozens of organizations from
0:08:24 different regions, we built national network of local documentators, we covered the whole
0:08:30 country including the occupied territories and working together we jointly documented
0:08:34 more than 70,000 episodes of our crimes.
0:08:43 70,000 is a huge amount but still just a tip of iceberg because Russia uses war crimes
0:08:45 at the messes of our fear.
0:08:50 It’s a way how Russia tries to win this war, Russia deliberately provides enormous pain
0:08:57 and suffering to civilians in order to break people’s resistance and occupy the country.
0:09:03 I start to ask myself from the first months of this large scale war for whom do we document
0:09:05 all these crimes for?
0:09:11 Because as a lawyer, I understand that we face with accountability gap.
0:09:19 First, it’s a huge amount of crimes, it’s very difficult to investigate all of them
0:09:22 according to international standard.
0:09:28 And second, there is no international court who can prosecute Putin and top political
0:09:33 leadership and high military command of the Russian state for the crime of aggression.
0:09:38 For their leadership decision to start this war, which is very essential because all these
0:09:44 atrocities which we now documenting, it’s a result of this leadership decision.
0:09:51 And that’s why the huge part of my job nowadays is to establish a new international accountability
0:09:53 mechanisms.
0:10:00 We have to change the global approach to work on justice and to global justice for crime
0:10:01 against peace.
0:10:04 And we are doing this not just for Ukrainians.
0:10:08 The whole world will benefit after this change.
0:10:15 Are you saying that the ICC is ineffective and it’s not really addressing this?
0:10:16 No.
0:10:20 The activities of international criminal court is extremely important.
0:10:27 Let me remind you how important was this arrest warrant against Vladimir Putin and his child
0:10:34 commissioner Maria Lvova-Belova, especially because we have politicians, even in Western
0:10:39 democracies, which still want to return to business as usual with Russia.
0:10:44 And now they have to understand that when they try to shake Putin’s hand, they will
0:10:52 do it with a man who was officially recognized by international criminal court on this level
0:11:01 of indictment, that Putin is one of the biggest child kidnappers in the world.
0:11:04 And this is not political, this is legal statement.
0:11:07 But what’s the problem with international criminal court?
0:11:12 First, international criminal court has no jurisdiction over the crime of aggression,
0:11:19 which means that we have to establish a special tribunal on aggression like international court
0:11:25 to make Putin Lukashenko and their surrounding accountable for the crime against peace.
0:11:31 And second, international criminal court has jurisdiction over the crimes against humanity,
0:11:39 genocide and war crimes, but according its policy, this court never investigate all crimes,
0:11:46 which means that the vast majority, probably 98% of everything which were committed by
0:11:52 Russia will be burden of responsibility of national system.
0:12:01 And investigate in all requirements of Article 6 of European Convention of Human Rights more
0:12:07 than 126,000 criminal proceedings.
0:12:13 This is a number which Office of General Prosecutor investigated for current moment.
0:12:18 It’s impossible even for the best national system in the world, Ukraine is not the best
0:12:21 national system in the world.
0:12:25 How many children have been kidnapped in this war?
0:12:29 The honest answer, I don’t know.
0:12:36 We are in the folk of the war and we have only official numbers in our own expertise.
0:12:44 Ukrainian authorities identified more than 19,000 children who were illegally deported
0:12:46 to Russia.
0:12:55 Russian authorities tell that they transfer to Russia more than 700,000 children.
0:13:00 The difference with number is because Russian authorities put in this number children who
0:13:04 were illegally deported together with the parents.
0:13:10 Really you remember how in the first years of the war hundreds of thousands of Ukrainians
0:13:16 were deported to Russia and Ukrainians and people abroad tried to help them to leave
0:13:22 Russia as quickly as possible because very often these people were deported without documents,
0:13:25 without money, without everything.
0:13:31 After weeks or months being in the basement of their residential building hiding from
0:13:35 Russian shallots or in a very difficult psychological mood.
0:13:43 What we can tell, according to this problem, that this is a massive practice.
0:13:51 Russia used these war crimes as a conscious policy of Russian federation and even more
0:13:59 this illegal deportation of Ukrainian children is a part of a genocidal plan of Russia.
0:14:05 Because in Russia these children were told that they are not Ukrainian, they are Russian
0:14:12 children and Russia is their motherland and they are supposed to be adopted by Russian
0:14:20 family regardless of the fact that part of them have their parents arrested by Russian
0:14:34 so their life or relatives in Ukraine waiting and trying to return them back and this is
0:14:36 a genocidal policy.
0:14:42 It’s very important to understand what the goal is because when we speak about crime
0:14:47 of genocide it’s a crime of crime and as a lawyer I know how difficult it is to prove
0:14:53 on international level but no necessity to be a lawyer to understand the common thing
0:15:00 that if you want partially or completely destroy some national group there is no necessity
0:15:03 for you to kill all representatives.
0:15:09 You can forcibly change their identity and the entire national group will disappear and
0:15:17 that is why Russians take dozens of thousands of Ukrainian children to Russia to bring them
0:15:22 up as Russians and to destroy their identity.
0:15:30 So these kids were kidnapped, taken to Russia and now they’re being raised by Russian families?
0:15:39 Yes, and there are a lot of journalists’ investigation about this, the last which I found very interesting
0:15:45 because it was made by Russian independent media as a TV rain, they even achieved the
0:15:52 comment of this Russian adoptive family and look what they tell to this journalist that
0:15:59 first they adopted the small boy and they changed the boy’s name and surname and they
0:16:05 told that the boy was crying and told that his real name is another but they ruined his
0:16:15 personality and now this adoptive family said that he became to agree with his new name
0:16:24 but what strikes me in this story even more that this boy has a sister and this sister
0:16:31 has a 16 year old and she applied to Russian court asking Russian court not to separate
0:16:41 her from her brother and Russian court refused and they separated sister from brother.
0:16:49 So this is a real horror, on the example of this two child it’s a tragedy and this Russian
0:16:57 adoptive family saying with a smile how they ruin the real identity of this boy, I really
0:17:04 can’t provide some comments on this action, only probably legal comments because from
0:17:22 the human sense, from the common sense it’s horrible what they did to this child.
0:17:25 Can you tell me what your typical day is?
0:17:30 What does a Ukrainian human rights lawyer do on a typical day?
0:17:36 There is no typical day in Ukraine because war ruined everything which you call a normal
0:17:42 life, a possibility to go to work, to meet with your colleagues or friends, to hug your
0:17:48 beloved ones, to have family dinners, everything disappeared because to live during the large
0:17:54 scale war it means that you have no typical day, you have no structure in your life, you
0:18:00 lose control over your life and you live in total uncertainty because you have never any
0:18:08 idea when the next Russian attack started, when internet disappeared, what happened with
0:18:14 your beloved ones which are in another part of Ukraine because there is no safe place
0:18:18 anymore where you can hide from Russian rockets.
0:18:23 This is something which the world do with every people in Ukraine, not human rights
0:18:29 lawyer, that we have no typical days anymore.
0:18:31 If it’s safe to tell me, where are you now?
0:18:32 What city?
0:18:40 I’m in Kyiv, I’m in my home and I’m afraid that you and our listener hear the voice of
0:18:49 my cat because he always try to interfere to my podcast and I’m sorry because he makes
0:18:56 this voice very loudly, I have to introduce my cat, my cat’s name is Sunflower, so welcome
0:19:02 Sunflower and sorry I can’t stop him.
0:19:04 We are happy to accommodate Sunflower.
0:19:16 I don’t know how to say this without sounding callous but are you not in physical danger?
0:19:21 Wouldn’t the Russians like to in particular silence you as a human rights lawyer as opposed
0:19:27 to just a normal regular person, a normal Ukrainian, aren’t you a target?
0:19:37 We are all targets and I get used to this situation because I don’t know how my personal
0:19:45 story will end but I know that all other efforts have sense and there are a lot of people who
0:19:52 will continue this fight for justice and that result even unexpectedly will be achieved.
0:19:54 I have no doubt in it.
0:20:02 Can you give me a sense of how Ukrainians feel now?
0:20:06 Have they given up from the outside looking in and I don’t know what filters come out
0:20:10 of Ukraine that reach the United States or a person like me?
0:20:16 It seems like Ukrainians are extremely resilient and clever and fighting back but from your
0:20:19 perspective, what’s the tone out there?
0:20:24 Yes, Ukrainians are resilient because pessimism is a luxury.
0:20:30 Sometimes journalists ask me about tiredness and I very honestly tell that probably you
0:20:38 can allow yourself to be tired being in Berlin, in Geneva, in Paris, in Washington but if
0:20:44 you will be tired in Kharkiv, in Odessa, in Kiev, you will be killed.
0:20:47 That’s why pessimism is a luxury for us.
0:20:52 But also true that millions of people in Ukraine are in pain.
0:20:55 We have a lot of families separated.
0:21:01 We have a lot of deaths and this is something which I can’t get used because first and foremost
0:21:10 we are all humans and it’s very difficult to lose regularly your friends, your colleagues
0:21:14 and people from your close circle.
0:21:21 And because Russians, as they tell before, they deliberately provide enormous suffering,
0:21:27 they try to develop so-called learned helplessness.
0:21:34 They try to cultivate this learned helplessness that Ukrainians have no energy to resist.
0:21:39 Just to say that there is no sense to oppose such enormous opposing power which Russia
0:21:47 is because for sure Russia is a great military state, has nuclear weapon, veto power in
0:21:55 the UN, much bigger population and before the war started Russia was 11th economy in
0:21:56 the world.
0:22:03 But what we know and what we prove to the world that ordinary people have a much great
0:22:06 impact that they can even imagine.
0:22:12 Ordinary people are stronger than even the Second Army in the world.
0:22:18 Ordinary people who fight for their freedom and human dignity can change the world’s history
0:22:21 quicker than the UN intervention.
0:22:23 And we are ordinary people.
0:22:30 This means that we feel pain, we feel frustration, we feel all emotions in this war.
0:22:34 But we also know that we have no other choice.
0:22:37 This war is genocidal.
0:22:42 If we stop fighting, there will be no more us.
0:22:48 I’m sure you’ve thought about this, but literally what happens if Russia wins this war?
0:22:53 I can tell you this is something which Russians told to people whom we interviewed, people
0:22:56 who survived from Russian captivity.
0:23:04 They told us that Russians told them that first we’ll occupy Ukraine and then together
0:23:10 with you we will conquer other countries because Russia is an empire.
0:23:14 Empire has a center but has no borders.
0:23:20 If empire has energy, empire always tries to expand.
0:23:25 And that’s why in this war we are fighting not just for ourselves.
0:23:35 We are fighting for the post-world order which was established when Nazi Germany collapsed.
0:23:43 And this means that we are fighting to prevent this world war.
0:23:51 And this is not just words because we saw the same in occupied territories where Russia
0:23:57 provide forcible mobilization of Ukrainians to Russian army.
0:24:03 And even if you look to Russian army which invaded to Ukraine, you can see clearly this
0:24:11 imperialist policy of Russia because they first mobilized people from indigenous people
0:24:17 of Russia, like from Chechnya, Yakutia, Ingushetia, Buryatia.
0:24:24 And this small indigenous people now in crisis, their representatives told that when we lose
0:24:31 all our men in this war, we as an indigenous people will disappear.
0:24:38 And this is imperialist policy for Russia is empire.
0:24:44 And this is something which is not unfortunately understandable for international community.
0:24:47 And what if Russia loses?
0:24:53 Does China take back Manchuria and the Federation implodes and what happens then?
0:25:00 Let me answer to this question with the quote of my Russian human rights colleague because
0:25:02 I also ask them how it can help.
0:25:07 You know that Russian human rights organization closed.
0:25:11 My Russian colleagues labeled as foreign agents.
0:25:12 Some of them have to leave country.
0:25:18 Some of them still they are just recently my friend, the head of Russian Human Rights
0:25:25 Center Memorial who received the Nobel Peace Prize together with me was jailed.
0:25:27 So they are really dangerous.
0:25:35 And they still trying to do our best, their best to help us and to help Ukrainian citizens.
0:25:41 And when I ask them what I and my team can do to help you.
0:25:47 My Russian human rights colleagues always answered, if you want to help us, please be
0:25:49 successful.
0:25:55 Because only success of Ukraine and military defeat of Russia provide a chance for democratic
0:25:58 future of Russia itself.
0:25:59 Not guarantee.
0:26:06 There is no guarantee in our life at all, but at least a chance for democratic transformation.
0:26:11 And this is a luxury to have a chance because for now they have no chance.
0:26:20 What has been the impact of the recently approved $60 billion of aid from the United States?
0:26:27 Probably you know that the vast majority, 88% of this money will stay in United States.
0:26:29 So they will never transfer to Ukraine.
0:26:36 This money will be used for buying weapons from United States.
0:26:44 This win-win deal, so-called, because it’s also stimulate United States economy to develop.
0:26:51 We urgently need these weapons to stop Russian counter-offensive attack because Russia uses
0:26:59 this situation when military aid were blocked in United States for months and Russia killed
0:27:05 unarmed and tried to go further and captured as more territories as Russia can.
0:27:12 And Ukrainians are ready to fight, but it’s impossible to fight with bare hands.
0:27:16 And that is why we are waiting for these weapons to be delivered.
0:27:18 It’s still on the way.
0:27:25 And that is why Russia, I think, suffices attack and start to attack not just on Donbass
0:27:32 but also in Kharkiv region, near border with Russia, in Sumo region, something supposed
0:27:33 to happen.
0:27:37 It’s also another part of border with Russia.
0:27:40 And we are in a critical situation.
0:27:43 And this is a price for delay.
0:27:48 And we pay in a price for this delay of military support.
0:27:53 And the time for us converted in numerous deaths now.
0:28:01 And sitting in Ukraine and you’re watching Congress debate about the aid package to Ukraine
0:28:07 and trying to tie it into our southern border security and it’s all political, right?
0:28:11 From the outside, looking in, what do you think of the United States, the way it does
0:28:12 some of these things?
0:28:14 I’m in Kiev.
0:28:19 And in Kiev, we are constantly being shot, not just by Russian rockets, but also by Iranian
0:28:20 drones.
0:28:26 China helped Russia to circumvent sanctions and the import technology is critical to
0:28:27 our fear.
0:28:33 Syria works for Russia in UN General Assembly and North Korea sent to Russia more than a
0:28:35 million artillery shells.
0:28:43 So if authoritarian regimes support each other, I believe that people who believe in democracy
0:28:49 and freedom have to support each other even stronger because we are losing freedom in the
0:28:50 world.
0:28:55 And this year, half percent of population in the world will go to election.
0:29:02 Eighty percent of people around the world live in non-free or partially free society,
0:29:08 which means that people who have a real right to vote and for whom they want, who have a
0:29:14 real right to love whom they heart tell them to life, who have a real right to say what
0:29:21 they want to say and a real right to choose what God they want to pray, it’s just twenty
0:29:23 percent, it’s minority.
0:29:29 And we saw the dangerous trends in so-called well-developed democracies, so we are losing
0:29:30 freedom in the world.
0:29:39 That’s why it’s so important to support each other in order to save this dimension for
0:29:46 freedom and for development of people and for their rights and freedoms.
0:29:48 Up next on Remarkable People.
0:29:55 His family hoped to the last that he is alive but like thousands of other Ukrainian civilians
0:29:57 are in Russian captivity.
0:30:03 But when the Ukrainian army liberated Kharkiv region, we found mass graves with dead bodies
0:30:13 of men, women and children there and in unmarked grave under the number 319, we found the body
0:30:17 of this dead children writer Volodymyr Volenko.
0:30:22 And you can ask me, for what Russians killed children writer?
0:30:25 The answer is simple because they can.
0:30:36 Thank you to all our regular podcast listeners.
0:30:39 It’s our pleasure and honor to make the show for you.
0:30:45 If you find our show valuable, please do us a favor and subscribe, rate and review it.
0:30:52 Even better, forward it to a friend, a big mahalo to you for doing this.
0:30:57 We’re listening to Remarkable People with Guy Kawasaki.
0:31:03 Do you believe that these sanctions that the United States announces, does it have any
0:31:09 effect on the Russian will to wage this war?
0:31:10 Sanctions is effective.
0:31:15 The problem is that Russia find a way how to bypass sanctions.
0:31:21 Even my colleagues analyze broken planes and drones on the battlefield.
0:31:27 They found their American elements, American technologies.
0:31:35 So Russia still import American technologies and use it in planes and drones to kill Ukrainians.
0:31:42 This means that we have problems that we can’t close that back door for which Russia used
0:31:43 to bypass the sanctions.
0:31:46 And this is not just Ukrainian problem.
0:31:52 This first and foremost problems of United States, of European Union and other countries
0:31:57 who introduce sanctions but can’t secure sanction regime.
0:32:01 I’d like to return to the ICC for a second.
0:32:11 So do you believe that this ICC action towards Putin, does it have any effect on Russian
0:32:16 commanders and thinking that they’re going to be guilty of war crimes or anything?
0:32:18 Does it matter to them at all?
0:32:24 Let me tell you a story which can perfectly answer to your question.
0:32:32 When ICC announced this first ever warrant against Putin and his child commissioner,
0:32:39 because we all know Russian language as a former part of Russian Empire, I hear the
0:32:45 Margarita Simonyan, the head of Russian Today on Russian television, she was furious.
0:32:48 She was very angry but not on the court.
0:32:56 She was angry because she had a conversation with Russian generals and she told, can you
0:33:04 imagine, these Russian generals told me, probably we have to change our military tactics because
0:33:11 we can also be arrested, issued on arrest warrant by international criminal court.
0:33:12 And she was so angry.
0:33:15 She told, how they can’t think about this.
0:33:18 They have to be worried only to lose this war.
0:33:21 So it happens.
0:33:27 What I try to explain for people about justice, because people, they think the justice is
0:33:34 about the past, because you will be punished for something which you have already done
0:33:35 in the past.
0:33:41 Or people think that justice is only about future, because it’s provided a signal for
0:33:49 future that if you commit the same, you will be punished, like previous perpetrators.
0:33:54 But justice have a very significant impact to the present.
0:34:00 When you start demonstrate justice, even if a part of Russians start to be doubt, that’s
0:34:07 probably this time they will not avoid responsibility, how they avoid in Chechnya, in Moldova, in
0:34:11 Georgia, in Mali, in Libya, in Syria, in other countries of the world.
0:34:16 So probably this time they will be responsible for everything which they commit by their
0:34:18 own hands.
0:34:25 And if part of Russians start to be doubt, when we speak about category of large scale
0:34:31 war, it can save thousands, thousands, and thousands of lives, because it will have a
0:34:36 frozen effect to brutality of human rights violations.
0:34:42 And this is the strategic meaning of justice to present.
0:34:51 From those lines, then it is more effective to prosecute now during the war than like
0:34:55 in World War II, where people waited till after the war.
0:35:01 But for what we have to wait, this is the common sense.
0:35:07 If we want to prevent war in the future, we have to punish the state and their perpetrators
0:35:10 who start such wars in present.
0:35:17 But this common sense, it’s a logic, have only one precedent in the whole history of
0:35:20 humankind, and it was Nürburgring trial.
0:35:22 And what is Nürburgring trial?
0:35:23 It’s Victoria’s trial.
0:35:30 It’s trial where Nazi criminals were tried only after Nazi regime had collapsed.
0:35:37 But it was in past century, the life in U1, the world changed a lot after the Second World
0:35:38 War.
0:35:43 U1 was established, international treaties were signed, the international architecture
0:35:47 of peace and security were developed.
0:35:53 People and countries become more and more civilized for what we have to wait.
0:36:00 Justice must be independent of fact when and how the war will end.
0:36:07 We have to send a strong signal that if you start aggressive war, we don’t care.
0:36:09 Will you lose this war?
0:36:10 Will you win this war?
0:36:14 If you start aggressive war, you will be punished.
0:36:21 And only these can prevent wars in the future, because it means that the war has no sense.
0:36:27 And do you think if Russian wins this war, they will still be brought to justice?
0:36:33 International crimes have no statute of limitation, which means that it’s better to demonstrate
0:36:41 justice sooner than later, but which means that people can do it in future wherever we
0:36:43 want to do it.
0:36:50 What is your interpretation of the relationship between Trump and Putin?
0:36:56 I’m not very familiar with American politics, but Trump is a very bright figure, for sure,
0:37:02 I heard about him, especially when he was a president of the United States.
0:37:06 And I think that Putin is very predictable, and Trump is very unpredictable.
0:37:14 This is a huge difference between these two types of people, because for us it was very
0:37:22 easy to predict that Russia will invade it, that Russia will use force in order to stop
0:37:28 democratic transition of Georgia, to stop democratic transition of Ukraine, that Russia
0:37:35 will try to present all this broken international order, like a fact to complete international
0:37:39 community and push international community to reckon with it.
0:37:40 It was predictable.
0:37:45 With Trump, we don’t know what to expect, frankly speaking.
0:37:53 If this war ends, would Ukraine accept the end of the war with Russia retaining Crimea?
0:37:59 Or does Ukraine want Russia out of every single part of Ukraine?
0:38:08 Let me make this question more human, because I’m not politician, I’m not diplomat, I’m
0:38:13 human rights lawyer, and I work with people, and I always try to bring human dimension
0:38:15 into conversation about war.
0:38:17 I will tell you a story.
0:38:22 This is a story about children writer Volodymyr Vakulenko.
0:38:28 He wrote a beautiful story for children, an entire generation of Ukrainian children brought
0:38:31 up of his daddy’s book.
0:38:35 During Russian occupation of Kharkiv region, Volodymyr disappeared.
0:38:42 His family hoped to the last that he is alive, but like thousands of other Ukrainian civilians
0:38:44 are in Russian captivity.
0:38:51 But when the Ukrainian army liberated Kharkiv region, we found mass graves.
0:38:56 It’s dead bodies of men, women, and children there.
0:39:03 And in unmarked grave, under the number 319, we found the body of this dead children writer
0:39:05 Volodymyr Vakulenko.
0:39:11 And you can ask me, for what Russians killed children writer?
0:39:15 The answer is simple, because they can.
0:39:22 Because Russian occupation mean torture in first disappearances, sexual violence, denial
0:39:28 of your identity, forcible adoption of your own children, filtration camps and mass graves.
0:39:33 Because people under Russian occupation have no tool how to defend their rights, their
0:39:38 freedom, their property, their lives, and their beloved ones.
0:39:45 And you know what? We have no moral right to leave our people alone, for torture and
0:39:48 death under Russian occupation.
0:39:52 This is something which is not very visible when you speak from geopolitical perspective,
0:39:57 but very understandable when you speak from human perspective.
0:40:03 We are fighting not just for territories, we are fighting for our people who live there.
0:40:09 It’s our neighbors, it’s our members of the families, it’s our friends, it’s our people,
0:40:18 it’s unhuman to leave them alone, because the life of people can’t be political compromise.
0:40:22 Okay, my last question for you is this.
0:40:29 So let’s say my listeners are hearing you and you know, we’re Americans and we’re sitting
0:40:32 fat, dumb and happy in America.
0:40:36 What can we do to support you?
0:40:41 Oh, you can do a lot, you can do a lot.
0:40:44 And let me tell you one example.
0:40:50 When large scale wars started, not just Putin, but also our international partners were confident
0:40:58 that Ukrainians have no right to resist because Russia is a strong state and blah, blah, blah.
0:41:02 But Ukrainians decided that we will fight for our freedom and human dignity, and when
0:41:09 international organizations and embassies evacuated their personal, ordinary people remained.
0:41:13 And ordinary people started to do extraordinary things.
0:41:18 It were ordinary people who helped to survive under artillery’s fire.
0:41:24 It were ordinary people who broke through the encirclement to provide humanitarian aid,
0:41:32 who tried to organize evacuation from siege cities and settlement under Russian fire,
0:41:37 who rescued people trapped into the rubbles of residential buildings.
0:41:44 Ordinary people rescued their lives to save other, which they have never met before.
0:41:51 And this was a part of Ukrainian success, that this plan that Ukraine will be occupied
0:41:54 in three, four days, was damaged.
0:42:03 But another part was ordinary people in United States and other countries who see our struggle
0:42:07 and start to demand from their government to help us.
0:42:13 Because you’re right about Ukraine, because you collect money, because you urge your government
0:42:17 to help more, we survived.
0:42:21 And you can continue to do it.
0:42:27 I’m extremely grateful for all people in United States, for your help and for your
0:42:32 assistance and for your solidarity in this dramatic time of our history.
0:42:34 You save our lives.
0:42:37 But the truth is that the wars continue.
0:42:47 This means that we still need your involvement, and you can do a lot in your country to make
0:42:54 the policy of United States more sensitive to Ukraine success.
0:42:56 Do you have anything more you want to say?
0:43:02 I have asked the questions that I want to ask, and what a powerful episode this will
0:43:03 be.
0:43:07 So you have the mic, you can say anything you want.
0:43:12 Probably I will say that I would never wish anyone goes through our experience.
0:43:20 Because war is the most horrible thing, which you can just even imagine.
0:43:29 And if I can in the future, I would like to forget a lot, which we’re going through now.
0:43:39 But I want to remember for ages that there are a few things which are literally important
0:43:41 in our life.
0:43:48 Because when you see how people support each other, when you feel this wave of solidarity
0:43:56 across the country, when you experience how people rescued their life to save others,
0:44:03 this is a feeling when you acutely aware what doesn’t mean to be human.
0:44:10 And I want me to remember what doesn’t mean to be human.
0:44:17 All I can say is, wow, what a powerful episode with Alexandra Medvedeva.
0:44:22 I hope you appreciate what she’s going through and danger she is encountering to do what
0:44:24 she does.
0:44:27 And let us all never forget what it means to be human.
0:44:29 I’m Guy Kawasaki.
0:44:31 This is Remarkable People.
0:44:34 First, I would like to thank Mariana Bonici.
0:44:39 She introduced us to Alexandra and made this interview possible.
0:44:43 Next, I would like to thank the Remarkable People team.
0:44:49 That would be Jeff C. and Shannon Hernandez, sound design engineers, Madda’s and Naismar
0:44:53 producer and co-author with me of Think Remarkable.
0:45:00 Tessa Naismar, a researcher, Alexis Nishimura, Luis Magana and Fallon Yates.
0:45:06 We are the Remarkable People team and we want you to be Remarkable Humans.
0:45:15 Until next time, mahalo and aloha.
0:45:16 This is Remarkable People.