Parenting Expert: The 4 Biggest Mistakes That Western Parents Make | Michaeleen Doucleff

0:00:05 I spent 12 years at NPR covering mostly viruses and they would send me around the world.
0:00:09 What was really surprising to me and why I went on this journey to like learn this
0:00:13 other way of parenting was when I came back to San Francisco and I tried some of these
0:00:17 techniques and methods. They worked like amazing on my little girl.
0:00:21 So what are some of these tips? I mean you summed it up with an acronym of team.
0:00:21 Yes.
0:00:24 What is team and like let’s make them practical for people.
0:00:30 So the first thing T is like this idea of like a lot of the Western relationship,
0:00:33 parent-child relationship is based on control but E is a different way.
0:00:34 E is.
0:00:36 And the next one is autonomy.
0:00:41 Yeah this one’s huge. If you could just change like one thing in your child’s life that would be.
0:00:44 M I guess we’ve sort of talked about this a little bit.
0:00:46 Yeah it kind of fits all together.
0:00:52 The M is like so praising is a really interesting topic that’s very unique in Western society.
0:00:55 In my entire travels I’ve never seen a parent-child.
0:00:57 Like it’s not necessary.
0:00:59 Okay would you video games? It’s like seven, eight.
0:01:00 Every day.
0:01:01 If you have your homework done.
0:01:03 I would cut out every day.
0:01:05 Oh I can’t yeah no.
0:01:06 But they don’t need it.
0:01:12 I don’t I don’t well you know if parents are listening to this and have a 16 year old addicted
0:01:13 to their phone.
0:01:13 Yeah.
0:01:17 What are the tangible things they can do in the next one month to sort of like help.
0:01:18 So here’s how it works.
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0:02:28 Today my guest is Michaeline Ducleff, author of Hunt Gather Parent and a global explorer
0:02:29 of parenting practices.
0:02:34 Her work takes us on a journey across cultures revealing profound insights that challenge
0:02:37 our modern assumptions I guess about raising children.
0:02:40 At the heart of her discoveries lies the acronym TEAM.
0:02:44 Together encourage autonomy and minimal intervention.
0:02:49 These four principles draw from the wisdom of indigenous communities around the world
0:02:53 offering a roadmap for fostering resilience, independence, and emotional well-being in our
0:02:54 children.
0:02:59 She shares her observations on how different cultures approach parenting and how their practices
0:03:03 can help alleviate the burdens we place on ourselves and our children.
0:03:07 We also explore the role of technology in modern parenting and its impact on our children’s
0:03:08 development.
0:03:13 She offers practical strategies for navigating this digital landscape and fostering meaningful
0:03:15 connections within our families.
0:03:18 It’s surprising how often we give our kids orders.
0:03:19 Do this.
0:03:20 Don’t do that.
0:03:25 And in this conversation you’ll learn a better approach that encourages critical thinking,
0:03:29 empathy, and problem solving skills that works on toddlers and teens.
0:03:33 I tried to make this episode as practical as possible so while we learn insights from
0:03:36 other cultures, how do we put them into practice in our culture?
0:03:40 Michaeline shares insights on how we can create an environment that allows our children to
0:03:44 take appropriate risks, learn from their mistakes, and grow into confident, capable
0:03:48 individuals in a world that sometimes pushes back.
0:03:52 Listening to this episode will give you another perspective on parenting that draws from the
0:03:55 collective wisdom of cultures around the world.
0:03:58 As with anything, take what works and ignore the rest.
0:04:09 It’s time to listen and learn.
0:04:16 Here in BC, extreme weather and wildfires are a reality and they threaten the places we love.
0:04:21 The government of BC is working with wildfire experts, communities, and indigenous partners,
0:04:23 taking action to help lessen risks.
0:04:26 How can you be wildfire ready?
0:04:30 Take steps to protect your home and community, make a safety plan,
0:04:32 and check local bans and alerts.
0:04:38 Learn more at wildfireready.gov.bc.ca, a message from the government of British Columbia.
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0:04:45 Forget the selection and protection of BCAA Auto Marketplace.
0:04:47 Try some random guy off the internet.
0:04:50 Some random guy!
0:04:52 Yes, zero security, zero peace of mind.
0:04:54 Some random guy!
0:04:59 The risk is part of the ride!
0:05:04 BCAA Auto Marketplace helps you buy and sell vehicles, just like we help you every day.
0:05:10 Visit bcaa.com/marketplace and avoid some random guy!
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0:05:46 I want to start with our parenting.
0:05:49 Have we collectively lost our way as parents?
0:05:55 Western society has kind of veered off the path, you know, and kind of gone into this valley
0:05:59 of strange parenting valley where we’ve kind of, yeah, we’ve kind of lost sight of like
0:06:05 what kids actually need, what the parent-child relationship actually needs to really function.
0:06:07 What’s different?
0:06:08 So there’s so many things that are different.
0:06:14 One anthropologist said that there’s about 40 to 50 things that we do as parents
0:06:17 that you can’t really find anywhere else except in places that are westernized.
0:06:24 And then there’s like four or five things that we are really missing that are really key to
0:06:33 raising a child that you enjoy being with, raising a child that’s helpful and respectful
0:06:33 and confident.
0:06:37 I mean, that’s really, if you look at our data, right, in Western society,
0:06:42 we have this epidemic of children who are anxious, who have kind of lost confidence.
0:06:46 And then for sure, we have children that like we struggle to get them to help,
0:06:51 right, and be helpful around the house and kind of work together as a team.
0:06:55 And so there’s a couple of things that we’re not doing that really support that.
0:06:57 How did we get here?
0:07:03 It’s a big question, but it dates back to like probably the 1500s in Europe.
0:07:10 It actually, one scientist thinks and has this whole theory and book about how it dates back
0:07:11 to the Catholic Church.
0:07:13 We could talk about that.
0:07:18 But in general, what’s happened is we’ve lost the parenting teachers.
0:07:21 That’s, I think, a really key aspect of it.
0:07:26 That traditionally, you have a child often very young, you know, in your 20s,
0:07:32 and your parents or aunt or neighbor would teach you how to raise that baby.
0:07:36 And then by the time you have your second or third baby, you kind of know, right?
0:07:41 But now, like me, when I had my daughter basically handed me this baby, sent me home,
0:07:44 and it was like me by myself.
0:07:44 Good luck.
0:07:45 Good luck.
0:07:45 Exactly.
0:07:50 My husband always says, like, we took all these birthing classes,
0:07:52 but he was like, why didn’t we take all these parenting classes?
0:07:53 Like, now what do we do?
0:07:54 Now that it’s, you know.
0:08:00 So that, I think, around 1700s is when that really started to get going,
0:08:02 losing this kind of the teachers.
0:08:08 And then parents started turning to the medical industry and parenting experts.
0:08:11 And you can see the progression of like, what do we do?
0:08:12 We don’t really know what to do.
0:08:15 And so parents are hungry for these pamphlets.
0:08:19 They were pamphlets basically from orphanages that doctors had made
0:08:23 just to like say, how do you raise like 40 kids, right?
0:08:28 And they turned into these like parenting manuals and books that were very popular
0:08:31 because parents stopped really knowing what to do.
0:08:35 Parenting books today, you can trace all the way back to those pamphlets.
0:08:36 It’s really incredible.
0:08:41 And of course, they weren’t the way you raise children in a home, you know, in a family.
0:08:43 They were for these institutions, basically.
0:08:47 I think I remember listening to one of your interviews and you mentioned like the number
0:08:51 when sleepbook is by some dude in the 1800s who didn’t even have kids.
0:08:51 Yeah.
0:08:55 He was like a sports writer and he wrote about golf, I think.
0:08:59 And he was also super into guns and he actually like blew his hand off and stuff.
0:09:04 And he like, I think he saw like there was like this market for parenting advice.
0:09:08 And he wrote, yeah, like he was one of the first ones to really write about sleep training,
0:09:14 which is totally crazy, like around the world, like leaving a baby to cry.
0:09:18 And it’s a very unique style.
0:09:22 And he was kind of one of the first people to suggest it and recommend it.
0:09:28 Can we come back to like the Catholic Church and sort of like we’re not taught how to be parents?
0:09:34 Is that a byproduct of like all of us working more and living in a busier society or is it?
0:09:35 The theory is.
0:09:42 And it’s really fascinating was that before the 1500s, people in Europe lived like people
0:09:48 ever in the world in these big kind of clans or groups of like family, like big and not like
0:09:50 all one house, but kind of in the same neighborhood.
0:09:54 And it was, you know, we was like communal living, right?
0:10:00 And this is how children were raised for hundreds, thousands of years.
0:10:02 And these kind of big groups.
0:10:04 And there’s a lot of data to support that.
0:10:06 And that’s how Europeans were doing it.
0:10:10 And then the Catholic Church came along about the 1500s and started having these laws
0:10:17 to prevent close cousins from marrying and having children, which is totally legitimate,
0:10:21 like biologically, you don’t want to marry your first cousin and have a child.
0:10:27 But over time, they started extending it out to like second, third, fourth, fifth, six cousins.
0:10:29 I mean, you and I are six cousins, right?
0:10:30 But we’re not related at all.
0:10:33 And it’s whether this was intentional or not.
0:10:37 What it did was it broke up this like big family living.
0:10:40 And right, because you couldn’t marry anymore into these groups.
0:10:46 And it really like took intergenerational living and squashed it down slowly and slowly
0:10:49 to what we now think of as like the nuclear family.
0:10:52 So you go from living in an environment where, you know, as a mom,
0:10:55 I would have clearly an older sibling.
0:10:57 I’d have an aunt and uncle.
0:10:58 I’d have a cousin.
0:11:00 I’d have this, all these people that are like helping me.
0:11:05 And I would be watching as I grew up, other children being raised, right?
0:11:07 That’s a big element too, right?
0:11:10 Like by the time I was 16, I probably had seen like five children
0:11:13 get raised from somebody in this big group, right?
0:11:14 And so that’s, I mean, if you look around the world,
0:11:16 that’s how people learned a parent.
0:11:21 That’s how this skill, the craft is like passed down through watching.
0:11:25 And then when you have your own teaching, but if you live,
0:11:32 if you squash down the family into like mother and father only, and you’re right,
0:11:35 one parent is out of the home a lot or two parents are out of the home,
0:11:40 then you’ve no longer have, you no longer watch people being raised.
0:11:43 Maybe you get one kid, one sibling, right?
0:11:45 And then you don’t have any helpers.
0:11:51 And this professor at Harvard has like tracked down the rise of the nuclear family,
0:11:58 correlates with how long ago the Catholic church was brought into a society.
0:12:02 And so Europe is the longest and you see this very strong nuclear family
0:12:06 and then other parts of the world, you know, it’s been introduced more recently
0:12:11 and you still see, you know, intergenerational living and these big family units.
0:12:14 But it’s not the only factor, I think.
0:12:18 Lots of other things have come about to kind of support the creation of the nuclear family
0:12:25 and the reduction of the people in our lives raising children.
0:12:28 And we have the saying, right, like it takes a village to raise kids,
0:12:32 but it sounds like we don’t actually create the village anymore.
0:12:35 That’s right. And it’s funny because I always say like, it doesn’t take a village.
0:12:41 It takes like five extra people, like, you know, because if you look in some societies,
0:12:44 so they’re called aloe parents, this is what scientists call them.
0:12:49 They’re people and children’s lives that are just as close to the child
0:12:51 and just as important to the child as the mother and the father.
0:12:53 They’re other parents, basically.
0:13:00 And if you look in most societies, children have like four or five of these, very close.
0:13:03 In some societies, they have like 12 or 15, but they’re not very close.
0:13:07 But there’s amazing studies in some societies where like a baby,
0:13:11 they’ll track like how many times a baby is passed around to a different person
0:13:13 in like an hour or two hours.
0:13:19 And it’s like something like 10 or 11 people in like an hour, like just regularly.
0:13:22 Think about that, like when you had your kids, like if you had 10 people,
0:13:26 like constantly helping you hold the baby, feed the baby,
0:13:28 like how much different your life would have been.
0:13:30 I’d have a lot more kids.
0:13:35 You’d have a lot more kids and you’d have a lot like less stress, right?
0:13:42 When I was traveling with Rosie, my little girl, we were in Tanzania
0:13:47 and we were with these women raising, they had the little ones,
0:13:49 the babies and the toddlers, because the other ones were at school.
0:13:54 And they were, it was a group of like six women and they would spend all day long together,
0:13:59 helping each other with the baby, the toddlers and the babies like all day long.
0:14:01 I’m talking like 10, 12 hours a day.
0:14:03 It was amazing, right?
0:14:06 From the standpoint of like social support, right?
0:14:12 And then I got back home and it was just me, like in this condo with a kid.
0:14:15 And it was, it was, the difference was so stark.
0:14:20 So before we sort of cover how we undo all of this, like what did you learn?
0:14:25 You traveled around the world, you found four different tribes that all taught
0:14:27 in it in a sort of different way.
0:14:29 What are the key lessons that came out of that?
0:14:30 Why is that important?
0:14:38 I’m a reporter and I spent 13, 12 years at NPR covering mostly viruses
0:14:39 and they would send me around the world.
0:14:43 And I started to notice while I was traveling that
0:14:46 parents didn’t seem to have the same struggles as we did.
0:14:49 You know, there were clearly struggles, there’s struggles everywhere.
0:14:50 I don’t want to romanticize it.
0:14:55 But what was really surprising to me and why I went on this journey to like
0:15:01 learn this other way of parenting was when I came back to San Francisco and I tried some of these
0:15:04 techniques and methods, because that’s really what they are.
0:15:09 They worked like amazing on my little girl in urban San Francisco.
0:15:15 Like it surprised, it really surprised me how quickly our relationship improved.
0:15:18 She was like two at the time when I really started to try this.
0:15:20 So what are some of these tips?
0:15:22 I mean, you summed it up with an acronym of team.
0:15:22 Yes.
0:15:27 But let’s make them, what is team and like let’s make them practical for people.
0:15:32 So the first thing T is like this idea of like together that humans,
0:15:35 homo sapiens are these incredibly social creatures.
0:15:39 That’s what separates us from like other homo species is that we are social.
0:15:43 And not only that we want to be with people, we want to help people.
0:15:46 And children are born wanting to help.
0:15:48 Everyone knows this in our society.
0:15:55 And so the first thing is really is let your children help you even when they can’t do it,
0:15:55 right?
0:15:59 So we have this, there’s there’s studies that show this, like American parents
0:16:03 are asked this question of like, you’re doing the laundry and your little two-year-old comes over
0:16:06 and starts throwing the clothes like all over the place.
0:16:07 Like what do you do?
0:16:12 And the American mom says something, the European American mom says something like,
0:16:16 I get mad because she’s making a mess and I tell her to go play, right?
0:16:18 Or I tell her to go watch cartoons, right?
0:16:20 And then they ask the same question to a Maya mom.
0:16:25 And the Maya mom say something like, I get kind of mad because she’s making a mess, right?
0:16:26 Starts off kind of similar.
0:16:30 And then she says, but I’m really excited that she wants to help with the laundry.
0:16:34 And so the Maya mom sees the little toddler’s mess
0:16:38 as this like sign of interest in helping, right?
0:16:40 It’s a very different view of the child, right?
0:16:42 It’s a very pro-social view.
0:16:45 And then she says, so I start teaching her how to do the laundry.
0:16:51 And one of the moms even says that the little girl’s like sometimes balls up the laundry.
0:16:54 And she says, I can see she’s trying to fold it, right?
0:16:57 With where I would just say she’s balling up the laundry and making a ball, right?
0:17:01 The other view is that she wants to help.
0:17:06 That we are these social creatures and we have this huge desire to help
0:17:08 starting off just from really from day one.
0:17:15 In many, many parts of the world, parents immediately say, yes, come help.
0:17:19 And keep the child there and have the child at least watch
0:17:21 or give the child a very small task to do.
0:17:26 And so that’s really the T never turned down a child’s request to help.
0:17:30 Like when I was getting ready for this podcast, like Rosie wanted to do my hair.
0:17:31 She wanted to do my makeup.
0:17:37 And it was like, yes, my job as a parent, I see is to find a way that she can actually help.
0:17:40 And the Maya families have some saying about it.
0:17:44 Like it’s your job to find the purpose in the child’s life,
0:17:48 to find the opportunities for the child to have purpose.
0:17:49 Don’t push them away.
0:17:53 Because if you keep pushing them away by the time they’re seven or eight
0:17:56 and they actually can start kind of helping, they’re not stupid.
0:17:57 They’re like, that’s not my job.
0:18:01 You know, like you’ve pushed me away for six years.
0:18:03 Why would I help you now?
0:18:07 And there’s data that show that that’s kind of what happens.
0:18:12 That kids, they learn their place in the home is my place playing
0:18:17 and watching video games, watching TV is my place like helping with dinner,
0:18:19 helping with the laundry, helping.
0:18:21 And unlearning that is hard.
0:18:23 I don’t think it’s as hard as we think it is.
0:18:28 But again, I think you have to change your view of the child, right?
0:18:30 You have to instead of just saying, oh, he doesn’t want to help.
0:18:32 He never helps.
0:18:33 He’s never going to help.
0:18:34 Don’t ask, right?
0:18:35 Can you imagine, right?
0:18:37 If Sony said that at work, don’t ask him.
0:18:39 He’s never, he’s no good at this.
0:18:41 Like how bad that would make you feel, right?
0:18:46 So it’s like actually starting to see there’s a little flame inside the child
0:18:48 that actually really does want to help.
0:18:50 I think you can turn it around.
0:18:52 Oh, well, let’s say E for encourage.
0:18:53 Oh, E.
0:18:57 So E is this idea that like a lot of the Western relationship,
0:18:59 parent-child relationship is based on control.
0:19:02 That the parent tells the child what to do
0:19:05 and they’re supposed to listen because they’re the child.
0:19:06 And you’re the authority.
0:19:07 And you’re the authority, right?
0:19:08 And that’s kind of just set.
0:19:09 But E is a different way.
0:19:14 E is we’re going to encourage children to do the right thing.
0:19:19 And really we’re going to get them to figure out what the right thing is themselves.
0:19:23 And every time you try to control a child, you create conflict.
0:19:27 You risk creating conflict because either the child’s going to get mad
0:19:29 because they don’t want to be told what to do.
0:19:33 Or you’re going to get mad because they’re not doing it, right?
0:19:37 And so another way of doing it is like, okay, I’m going to guide you.
0:19:39 I’m going to encourage you to do the right thing.
0:19:40 And you know what?
0:19:43 It’s okay if like nine, sometimes you don’t.
0:19:45 Because this is the long game.
0:19:49 But I’m going to use all these tools I have in my toolbox to get you
0:19:54 to learn to figure out what the right thing is, to learn to think.
0:19:58 When I went traveling, I knew there were like tools that cultures use
0:20:01 to get children to figure things out and instead of just telling them what to do.
0:20:04 But I had no clue how many there were.
0:20:05 There’s so many.
0:20:06 It’s amazing.
0:20:09 And they’re very subtle, but they can really change like the whole dynamic
0:20:11 between the parent and the child.
0:20:14 What the E does, the encouragement is it gets the child to feel like,
0:20:16 I’m making decisions for myself.
0:20:18 I’m in charge of my life.
0:20:22 You know, my mom has confidence that I can do it.
0:20:27 And so there’s this ease that starts to happen with the parent and the child.
0:20:28 So what are those tools?
0:20:33 So one of the amazing tools with smaller children is stories.
0:20:38 Like we are, there’s good evidence that humans are really made to learn through story.
0:20:42 And when we were actually with the Hadzabe, this hunter gatherer community in Tanzania,
0:20:44 they were using stories to teach me the rules.
0:20:47 So when we got to the camp, they didn’t just list off, you know,
0:20:50 very like American be like, here are the rules.
0:20:53 And like, you know, like, this is what you can do and you can’t do.
0:20:55 No, around the fire, they would tell these stories.
0:20:59 And some of them were about where you went to the bathroom and they would say things like,
0:21:01 this isn’t about you though.
0:21:04 Like this, you know, is clearly about me.
0:21:08 You know, are they, they sing songs that had stories in them for children?
0:21:14 And so this is a way of like putting the ideas into the child’s mind in a way that,
0:21:19 one, they can really understand because they don’t let young children don’t understand logic.
0:21:23 But also like a way of like, again, they’re going to figure it out through these stories.
0:21:25 So that’s a huge one for younger children.
0:21:30 As a, even for your children, there’s all these ways of like asking questions,
0:21:34 telling them consequences, kind of these little puzzles that you set up for them.
0:21:38 Another big one is the environment, like just setting up the environment so
0:21:43 they can’t get themselves in trouble, or they’re less likely to.
0:21:46 Right. So, I mean, the list goes on and on.
0:21:49 I mean, there’s some beautiful examples, like when we were up in the Arctic,
0:21:52 Rosie was kind of like throwing these rocks up in the air like this.
0:21:56 And the little nine-year-old, Rosie was three at the time and the little nine-year-old comes
0:21:58 over and says, you’re going to hurt somebody with those rocks.
0:22:03 And Rosie kind of sat there and like looked and then dropped the rocks.
0:22:07 And the nine-year-old walked away, like it wasn’t a…
0:22:09 No, and that’s what the parents do.
0:22:12 It’s like, I mean, I think if Rosie was throwing rocks at kids,
0:22:13 like then like, it would be different.
0:22:17 But it’s like, if you really stop and look at most of the situations, you don’t need.
0:22:22 And one of the stories that would probably resonate with people you told in the book is
0:22:25 how Rosie was keeping the fridge door open.
0:22:30 Yes. So when I first traveled up to the Arctic, the moms would tell me these stories,
0:22:35 like to get kids to wear their hats in the winter because they would get frostbite on their ears.
0:22:39 And they would tell them that like, if they didn’t, like that their heads would get chopped off
0:22:44 and the Northern lights would use their heads as soccer balls, all these very kind of scary stories.
0:22:46 And I was like, no, I’m never doing that.
0:22:49 And so that’s one of the things readers write into me about,
0:22:51 like one of the things are like, I could never do this, you know?
0:22:56 And then when I got back, Rosie had the refrigerator door open,
0:23:00 I was sitting there, close the refrigerator door, you know, just kind of nagging her,
0:23:04 which is the big tool we use over and over again.
0:23:09 And then I was like trying logic, you know, the electricity, I was very frustrated with her.
0:23:13 And then I turned to her and I said, there’s a monster in that refrigerator.
0:23:16 And when he warms up, he’s coming, oh my gosh, she’s coming out.
0:23:18 And I kind of made it very dramatic and kind of fun.
0:23:21 And like these stories are often kind of a wink in the eye.
0:23:23 Like the kid kind of knows it’s a story.
0:23:28 And she like slammed the refrigerator door and was like, looked at me and she was like,
0:23:32 tell me more, mama, tell me more about this monster.
0:23:36 And she was, I think three and three and a half at the time, three.
0:23:40 And it like changed our whole relationship.
0:23:44 We just started using stories for everything because the way we could communicate with her,
0:23:47 like we weren’t communicating with her otherwise.
0:23:49 Oh, we had, we had so many stories.
0:23:53 And like when she’s, now she’s eight and like around six or seven,
0:23:56 she kind of knew the stories were, were fake.
0:23:58 And she kind of didn’t want to hear them for a while.
0:24:03 And then she wanted to again, like it was like, because even as an adult, you like stories.
0:24:06 I mean, we still use stories as a society, right?
0:24:06 Yeah, absolutely.
0:24:07 We use them as warnings.
0:24:09 We use them as fairy tales.
0:24:12 We use them as, I mean, we use them as entertainment, right?
0:24:16 Like one of the scientists I talked to, because again, parents are very,
0:24:19 like I was like, this is too scary, you know.
0:24:23 But then one of the scientists I was talking to said, yeah, but look at a Disney movie.
0:24:25 Like it’s way scarier.
0:24:28 Like, you know, then, you know, because also I’m, I’m there.
0:24:31 I can see the point is not to scare her to death.
0:24:32 It’s to communicate.
0:24:34 Parenting is about transmitting values.
0:24:38 Is there a difference between encouraging and sort of praising?
0:24:42 Because we seem really good at praising kids.
0:24:44 It’s like, oh wow, you picked the green pen.
0:24:45 Like you’re amazing.
0:24:47 My child’s a genius, you know.
0:24:52 So praising is a really interesting topic that’s very unique in Western society.
0:24:57 You don’t, like in my entire travels, I’ve never seen a parent praise a child.
0:24:59 Like it’s not necessary.
0:25:02 Is it more subtle or they just don’t do it at all?
0:25:04 I think that there is some that’s more subtle.
0:25:06 Like you think the parents not doing anything,
0:25:09 but then you look and there is like these subtle signals that are happening,
0:25:13 which also speaks to the fact that we could be a lot more subtle with children, you know.
0:25:14 Like a smile.
0:25:17 Yeah, or like a pat on the shoulder.
0:25:21 Or when one of the moms said I would hug the child, you know, to thank them.
0:25:25 But praise really just came about in the last like 30 years.
0:25:30 Like I’m 47 and like my mom was really into praise and my dad wasn’t.
0:25:33 So I’m kind of right at the generation where the praise kind of,
0:25:36 and there’s this whole backstory to it about why it happened.
0:25:38 But praise is a tricky beast.
0:25:42 Praise can motivate children, but it can also demotivate.
0:25:47 It’s like depends on how it’s done, what context it is, the child.
0:25:50 Does the praise actually kind of fit with what you’re doing?
0:25:54 And I mean, we have the sense that all praise is good and it’s not.
0:25:57 I tell parents like you can just stop.
0:26:00 Before we get to autonomy, let’s double click on that.
0:26:02 What’s the difference between good praise and bad praise?
0:26:05 And I mean, I don’t think psychologists know.
0:26:07 And I think that’s one of the problems.
0:26:09 I think this over the top praise that you’re talking about,
0:26:11 I don’t think kids know it’s fake.
0:26:13 And in some ways it’s manipulative.
0:26:14 I think the problem is that we don’t know.
0:26:19 We don’t know how much praise helps kids because it’s an experiment.
0:26:20 It’s brand new.
0:26:23 How do we get in this experiment?
0:26:25 Maybe it was the 80s.
0:26:28 There was this whole push from the California government.
0:26:34 There was this idea that like the reason why kids started to use drugs
0:26:38 and misbehaviors because they had poor self-esteem
0:26:43 and that the way to help kids was to praise them.
0:26:44 That gives them good self-esteem.
0:26:46 But the data don’t support it at all.
0:26:47 There was no data.
0:26:50 It’s just again like these myths that kind of bubble up.
0:26:52 But you don’t need to do it.
0:26:54 I mean, I think I come from a privileged position in the sense
0:26:58 that like I’ve seen many, many families not praise children
0:27:02 and like the kids are like amazing
0:27:04 and have enormous amounts of confidence and self-esteem.
0:27:06 So it’s like it’s just not required.
0:27:11 I think what’s more important and what motivates kids
0:27:13 and there’s a lot of data to support this,
0:27:18 what motivates kids is having them actually contribute to your life.
0:27:24 Having them be part of your life and contribute in it.
0:27:28 I mean, you know as a person who works that you feel good
0:27:32 and motivated when you help and you do something
0:27:33 and you accomplish something.
0:27:36 And that, I mean, there’s tons of data and psychology to support.
0:27:38 That’s what motivates kids.
0:27:42 Not when somebody goes on and on about, oh my God, amazing.
0:27:44 So just to orient us where we are,
0:27:46 you have the acronym team togetherness
0:27:48 and we’ve talked about encouraging.
0:27:50 And the next one is autonomy.
0:27:51 Yeah, this one’s huge.
0:27:55 If you could just change like one thing in your child’s life,
0:27:59 that would be to give them two hours an hour a week of autonomy.
0:28:02 If you look at hunter-gatherer communities around the world.
0:28:06 So humans spent 200,000 years as hunter-gatherers.
0:28:07 That’s where our brains evolved.
0:28:10 That’s where we evolved in this context.
0:28:14 And so looking at hunter-gatherer communities around the world
0:28:18 offers some clues kind of to how the conditions in which we involved in.
0:28:21 It doesn’t say it exactly, but kind of gives you some clues.
0:28:25 And if you look in lots of different continents,
0:28:29 children have enormous amounts of autonomy in these communities,
0:28:33 which implies that’s how the child evolved, right?
0:28:35 The child’s brain evolved.
0:28:36 We used to have a lot of autonomy.
0:28:38 I mean, I was walking to school at seven.
0:28:40 I was walking like two kilometers almost.
0:28:41 Exactly.
0:28:43 Like it wasn’t that long ago in Western society that we had it.
0:28:48 The evolutionary perspective kind of says that like we need it, you know?
0:28:51 And then there’s this data that shows that kids that don’t have it
0:28:53 are more anxious, more prone to depression.
0:28:57 Like so when there’s just tons of data that’s like we need autonomy.
0:28:58 Children need autonomy.
0:29:02 But I think parents don’t know what it looks like.
0:29:04 So what does autonomy look like?
0:29:08 The best way to figure it out is to put your stock watch on
0:29:12 where you when you’re with a child in the morning at the grocery store just
0:29:16 somewhere and give no commands to the child.
0:29:19 No verbal instructions to the child for 20 minutes.
0:29:22 And see if you can do it.
0:29:24 I mean, because scientists have done this analysis.
0:29:26 I did this analysis like in different communities
0:29:29 and like in places where children have autonomy.
0:29:35 Parents give children like two to three verbal inputs in an hour.
0:29:36 And I’ve done it myself.
0:29:37 I’ve done it with parents in San Francisco.
0:29:41 And we were talking about like 120 verbal inputs per hour.
0:29:42 Just a constant stream.
0:29:43 Do this.
0:29:44 Do that.
0:29:45 Don’t do this.
0:29:45 Say this.
0:29:46 Say thank you.
0:29:51 Like, I mean, you can just you can see it like it’s just a constant praise
0:29:54 because it is a form of like kind of manipulating their behavior, right?
0:29:57 Which creates a power struggle in some ways.
0:30:00 Oh, for some children or some children appear fine with it, right?
0:30:02 They just kind of go.
0:30:03 I call them like turtles.
0:30:06 They kind of go down into a little shell and kind of, okay, you know.
0:30:08 And some children, it’s horrible.
0:30:12 When I was writing the book and Rosie and I’s relationship was really changing.
0:30:16 If we were in a hard time and we were arguing a lot, I would do this.
0:30:20 I put my stock watch on and my phone and I would say, okay, I’m going to be quiet.
0:30:20 I’m not going to.
0:30:24 I can give her physical physical.
0:30:25 Input, right?
0:30:28 Like you’re talking about more subtle, like some eye movement.
0:30:30 Some I can move her.
0:30:33 You know, if she’s doing something bad, I can take something, right?
0:30:36 I can do physical things, but I can’t know talking to her.
0:30:39 And it was amazing change.
0:30:43 Like how quickly that improves our relationship.
0:30:44 What can I do?
0:30:47 I have two teenagers to encourage autonomy.
0:30:48 Like, what does that look like?
0:30:50 What depends on where they’re at?
0:30:52 How much they’re already doing on their own?
0:30:56 Well, I used to like send them to grocery stores on their own when they were like seven and eight.
0:31:01 And, you know, I got a lot of pushback for that from society.
0:31:05 I used to let them walk to school and I get a lot of pushback from society.
0:31:08 One aside from this, it’s so cute.
0:31:14 My youngest came home one day and I had asked him to get a red pepper and he got a green pepper.
0:31:15 And I was like, we’ll go back to the store.
0:31:18 And he was like, I think eight or nine at the time.
0:31:22 And he goes back to the store and then he comes home and I was like, well,
0:31:23 what was the difference in price?
0:31:24 And he’s like, huh?
0:31:26 And I was like, what did you do?
0:31:29 He’s like, I put the green pepper on the shelf and I took the red pepper.
0:31:32 Because why would it be any different?
0:31:34 He’s like, I paid for it the first time.
0:31:36 You’re right, just a pepper.
0:31:36 Exactly why.
0:31:37 This is so cute.
0:31:38 This is a funny story.
0:31:43 It seems like society, I guess, has maybe it’s just my feeling.
0:31:46 I guess it’s like, it’s pushback on those things.
0:31:48 Oh, it’s not just your feeling.
0:31:50 There’s huge data on this.
0:31:54 And David Lancy, one of the anthropologists that I cite a lot in the book,
0:31:58 calls it like the shrink-wrapping of kids children.
0:32:00 Where we’re just so afraid of their safety.
0:32:03 I’m not afraid of their safety as much as afraid of other parents.
0:32:04 Right, right.
0:32:07 The police showing up at my door and like taking away my kids.
0:32:09 Because I sent them on an errand.
0:32:13 Society as a whole is afraid of their safety.
0:32:14 And there are parents that are.
0:32:18 Like, I think we’re kind of probably in the minority right now.
0:32:21 But like, so Rosie’s eight, she started going to the store.
0:32:23 We live in that right now, a 6,000 person town.
0:32:25 You know, America, I don’t know about Canada,
0:32:28 but I bet it’s the same as the safest it’s ever been.
0:32:29 Like, then when we were kids.
0:32:33 And she’s gotten pulled over by the cops twice.
0:32:35 One time they brought her home in the back of the car.
0:32:37 So, I mean, we’ve gotten pushed.
0:32:39 There’s absolutely a huge pushback.
0:32:42 I’ve had to just be like, this is what we value.
0:32:45 You know, my husband and I sat down, we like, what do we do?
0:32:48 You know, we’ve we’ve thought about going to the police.
0:32:50 So we dealt with the police and we told them like.
0:32:54 And the police actually admitted like it’s she’s fine, you know.
0:32:58 But other parents are calling us.
0:33:00 It’s the neighbors that we’re calling, you know.
0:33:02 And so we’ve also made her look better.
0:33:05 Like the optics of it, we’ve like, she’s on the bike now.
0:33:07 And, you know, she looks less.
0:33:10 She looks more like she’s in charge.
0:33:13 We also, there’s a great, there’s a great organization called Let Grow.
0:33:14 I don’t know if you know about it.
0:33:19 But it’s, it’s all about empowering parents and children to give their,
0:33:20 to have more autonomy.
0:33:24 And they have these little licenses that you can print out that say like,
0:33:27 I’m Rosie Ducleff and my parents allow me to go to these places.
0:33:30 And I’m allowed to talk to strangers.
0:33:32 I’m talking to you right now.
0:33:36 And like, so we printed that out for her and, but it’s hard, but it’s worth it.
0:33:39 Well, I don’t know, like, what can I do?
0:33:41 Like, okay, so they’re 13.
0:33:43 One 13, one’s 14.
0:33:46 I mean, autonomy is also like, what does the child want to do?
0:33:52 That they can’t because they feel afraid or they feel like they, you know,
0:33:54 they can’t do it because of parents or society or whatever.
0:33:57 And then helping them kind of achieve those goals.
0:34:00 So I guess, like maybe an example, like what comes to mind with,
0:34:07 with my kids would be like, do I give complete autonomy, which is they come home,
0:34:10 you know, this is dinner time, you help out with chores and you’re,
0:34:13 you contribute to the household, but I don’t talk to them about homework.
0:34:15 I don’t talk to them about schoolwork.
0:34:18 Or do I provide like a structure around this where it’s like,
0:34:22 let’s go over what’s due tomorrow and I don’t tell them what to do.
0:34:27 You know, like, how do you think about that between structure and autonomy?
0:34:30 I think at 13 and 14, I would not help them structure their time.
0:34:34 But if they, if they don’t have the ability, do you do see what I’m saying?
0:34:36 If they’re capable of doing it, let them do it.
0:34:39 And if they’re not, give the structure, but not the instructions.
0:34:42 Give the encouragement, right?
0:34:44 Like go back to the E.
0:34:45 So what would that look like?
0:34:47 I’m happy exposing all my appropriate things.
0:34:51 I mean, I’m just, it’s really fascinating, right?
0:34:54 Because like we have this sense in our, this is another weird thing we do,
0:34:57 is that like we think, okay, they’re at this age, they need to do this.
0:35:01 You know, and I would ask parents like, well, what, what age can they use a knife?
0:35:04 And the parent would just be like, it depends on the child.
0:35:04 Yeah.
0:35:08 You know, and so I, that’s why I’m like, kind of like, well, where are they with it?
0:35:08 Right?
0:35:11 Because one of the, one of the publishers said to me, well, I,
0:35:15 my, my child’s 11 and I opened up the back door and said, you’re free now.
0:35:18 You have autonomy now.
0:35:20 And she just stood there.
0:35:21 Yes, exactly.
0:35:23 I’m telling you, like chickens will just stand there too.
0:35:27 If they’ve been inside a cage for like, you know, she was like, but she didn’t want autonomy.
0:35:29 And I was like, well, she, she’s 11.
0:35:30 She’s never had that.
0:35:34 So she can’t just like, you can’t just tell her to go run and play outside
0:35:36 after 11 years of not, right?
0:35:38 So that’s why I’m asking you, like, where are they?
0:35:41 But I think the idea is like, don’t do things for them.
0:35:48 Like ever, like ever, you don’t need to, especially 13, 14, it’s like,
0:35:53 like if they can’t manage their time or they can’t figure out, okay, what’s next?
0:35:55 Because that’s, that’s a skill.
0:35:58 There’s actually a study looking at this in Guadalajara.
0:36:00 It’s a fascinating study.
0:36:05 It looks at parents that are more westernized who manage the child’s time.
0:36:05 Okay.
0:36:06 Now you’re doing dinner.
0:36:07 Now you’re doing chores.
0:36:08 Now you’re doing this.
0:36:09 Now you’re doing that.
0:36:14 And then more, a little more like team parenting, like my book, like where the,
0:36:16 the children manage their own time.
0:36:19 And the, in the study, they, these are like nine, 10 year olds in the study.
0:36:24 They show that the kids that are in that kind of more flexible environment take initiation.
0:36:26 They start their homework themselves.
0:36:28 They like, but it takes time.
0:36:29 That’s a, that’s a skill.
0:36:32 I mean, that’s one of the things that I tell parents, like,
0:36:37 when you’re managing your child, when you’re kind of their personal assistant
0:36:40 and you’re managing their time, like blocked hour by hour,
0:36:43 you’re kind of doing them a disservice because you’re, they’re not
0:36:47 able to learn this skill of like, what do I do next?
0:36:48 Yeah.
0:36:51 And you know, like at your job, like my job, I sit down in the morning, it’s like, well,
0:36:52 what do I do?
0:36:56 That’s a big part of the job is like, okay, I got to interview this person.
0:36:57 I got to send this email.
0:36:58 I got to read this part.
0:36:58 I got to write this part.
0:37:01 Right. And that’s the skill that takes time.
0:37:04 And so I would start, if I, if I don’t know, I’m not trying to say your child doesn’t have that.
0:37:08 But if, if, if I felt like my child didn’t have that, I would start trying to teach,
0:37:13 like teach them that, you know, like what do you, what do you have on your plate tonight?
0:37:13 Yeah.
0:37:14 You know, what would you do next?
0:37:15 Questions.
0:37:16 Questions, exactly.
0:37:19 Like, you know, that was one of my favorite part, questions on command.
0:37:22 So we actually now have a little school.
0:37:26 And so I love it because I get to say that I tried these things on lots of kids, you know,
0:37:30 like as time has gone on, I got more confident because I’ve tried them on all these kids at
0:37:31 this little school we have.
0:37:34 And like the questions work with every kid.
0:37:38 And the questions are designed to get them to think about the next step instead of you
0:37:42 giving the instruction and telling them what to do.
0:37:45 That’s right. We have one little boy who, he’s 11.
0:37:51 He’s very smart, great reader, great math, but he cannot do anything that I don’t tell him
0:37:52 kind of the next step.
0:37:58 Like we were just making Valentine’s Day cards and then hanging him on a tree for the teacher.
0:38:01 And he was literally staying there with the two pieces of yarn and was like, what do I do next?
0:38:04 And I was like, what do you think you do next?
0:38:09 And it took about five minutes for him to figure out that he needs to tie it and put it on the
0:38:09 tree.
0:38:12 And you just let him sort of struggle with it.
0:38:12 Yeah.
0:38:12 Yeah.
0:38:14 That’s really interesting.
0:38:17 And the M, I guess, we’ve sort of talked about this a little bit.
0:38:19 Yeah, it kind of fits all together.
0:38:22 The M is like minimal interference.
0:38:24 That’s kind of a limit what we’re getting at.
0:38:29 It’s like, we think that good parenting, I thought the good parenting was maximal interference.
0:38:32 Like I was always trying to figure out, okay, what do I tell Rosie next?
0:38:35 Okay, I’m always looking out for like the next thing to say.
0:38:38 And like one parent even told me, I forgot who it was, but she told me,
0:38:44 sometimes I have to really hold myself back from interfering to see if they can do it.
0:38:49 You know, there’s this like magic moment where you want to jump in and that’s when they were like,
0:38:52 but if they need your help, you jump in.
0:38:53 How do we learn that as parents?
0:38:58 Because you’ve done it for so long and then the temptation is obviously.
0:39:02 I tell parents, and this is kind of how I started it, was I would take Rosie to the beach.
0:39:06 I would take her to an environment where she had a lot of autonomy.
0:39:08 I know the beach doesn’t sound like that to a lot of parents, but like,
0:39:11 I had taught her like not to go into the water.
0:39:15 And then I would just sit there like hours and I would read and work and just let her live.
0:39:19 And that was how I practiced it.
0:39:23 You get the confidence that like, oh, the kid, I don’t need to interfere so much.
0:39:27 And when I don’t interfere, she does, she’s so happy and she’s, you know,
0:39:29 I can work and I can do my life.
0:39:31 And like, I think you just have to try it.
0:39:36 And she didn’t want to play with you and she didn’t want to play with me.
0:39:40 I mean, especially if there was like, not other kids around or something.
0:39:44 I would just say, no, I’m reading right now, you know?
0:39:48 I mean, that’s another thing is like most societies, parents don’t play with children.
0:39:49 Yeah.
0:39:51 Like at all babies a little bit, but.
0:39:54 Otherwise sort of like figured out, use your imagination, people.
0:39:57 Yeah, or there’s other kids, a lot of times there’s other kids around.
0:39:59 And now we’re in a nonstop.
0:40:01 I feel like I have to entertain you.
0:40:06 So that is another huge one, huge, huge difference in art.
0:40:10 This is what I think the most stressful things is like this feeling of what do you
0:40:11 do with your time with your kids?
0:40:14 Kids do not need to be entertained.
0:40:19 They have not been entertained for like hundreds thousands of years, 200,000 years.
0:40:20 They do not need it.
0:40:24 Like I say, like you can welcome them into your world and teach them how to be in your world.
0:40:31 But when they’re in their world, you can be there, tea for together,
0:40:32 but you don’t have to do anything.
0:40:41 There’s a lot of differences between the worlds of these tribes and our world.
0:40:41 Yes.
0:40:43 Some of those differences are food.
0:40:45 Yes.
0:40:46 Technology.
0:40:48 Well, both of those are changing.
0:40:48 Culture.
0:40:50 Culture.
0:40:54 In terms of women’s roles and whether they work or not.
0:40:54 Yes.
0:40:56 And how they contribute.
0:41:00 How do you think that affected how they’re raising kids?
0:41:03 Is that specific to that environment?
0:41:04 How does it affect our environment?
0:41:05 What’s the same?
0:41:06 What’s different?
0:41:11 In the Maya community, in the Inuit community, which is just north of us right now in Canada,
0:41:16 there was lots of technology and lots of processed foods.
0:41:17 Interesting.
0:41:18 Yeah.
0:41:19 I mean, the Maya community less, but…
0:41:22 Like they’re eating fruit loops for breakfast sort of thing?
0:41:23 The Inuit, yes.
0:41:23 Okay.
0:41:25 A lot of them, yes, a lot of them.
0:41:30 But I mean, the Maya, the more there were more traditional foods kind of made every day and
0:41:34 every day, but they had, you know, the Hadzabe, it was no technology.
0:41:39 Very little westernized processed food.
0:41:40 So it was very different.
0:41:45 So I think the food is an interesting question because like these really control children
0:41:47 and control us kind of in ways.
0:41:49 What do you mean by that?
0:41:53 I think technology is probably easier to talk about.
0:41:56 I mean, it’s designed to make the child use it, right?
0:41:57 So it’s not a secret, right?
0:42:01 To shape the child’s behavior and their activities.
0:42:06 And so it’s hard to be as a parent to just let that go.
0:42:08 So how is it impacting these kids, though?
0:42:14 Like kids today, I mean, my kids are maybe an exception, but most kids long before they
0:42:19 hit 13, 14 have iPhones or iPads and…
0:42:20 Right.
0:42:21 So the Maya is very fascinating.
0:42:26 The Maya, many of the parents told me that they don’t get a phone until they can pay for it.
0:42:28 But you can do that when everybody’s in that camp.
0:42:29 When it’s collective.
0:42:31 When you’re the only great, you know, when my great-
0:42:32 So how did you do it?
0:42:36 You know, well, I just did what my parents did.
0:42:38 I was like, I don’t care about Johnny down in the street.
0:42:39 Yes, yes, yes.
0:42:41 I care about you, but like I feel that pressure.
0:42:43 And in grade seven, you know, that he was the…
0:42:46 There’s two kids in his class who didn’t have a phone.
0:42:48 In grade eight, he was the only one who didn’t have a phone.
0:42:55 And he feels it because he feels sort of like left out, you know, like these guys or these,
0:42:59 you know, my classmates are doing something and I’m not, I can’t be a part of it.
0:43:02 The way that we’ve talked about this inside our house is like,
0:43:06 okay, going into grade nine, you can have a phone, but you can’t take your phone to school with you.
0:43:12 And you have to wait at least a year before you have to show me that you can be responsible
0:43:17 with it before you can have other apps on your phone that aren’t sort of like games, right?
0:43:22 Like, so before you can have Instagram, my whole path with this is like,
0:43:24 I’m hoping schools ban phones.
0:43:25 By the time that like…
0:43:26 By the time…
0:43:28 And they probably will.
0:43:32 Well, Ontario came out yesterday and said they banned phones in all schools
0:43:36 up until the end of grade 12, which I think is a great idea personally.
0:43:41 And I’m hoping we get to this place with sort of like Snapchat and social media
0:43:43 and some of that stuff before he gets there.
0:43:45 So I’m like all about delaying, right?
0:43:46 Right.
0:43:46 I mean, yeah.
0:43:48 I think that is the word.
0:43:51 But they’re also like they’re growing up in a world where they have to coexist with technology
0:43:53 and we know how addictive it is.
0:43:59 So, you know, all of a sudden you’re 18 and giving them a phone is also probably not the best strategy.
0:44:04 It’s interesting because all the data show that when they get the phone, it makes them more lonely.
0:44:04 Yeah.
0:44:05 It makes them more isolated.
0:44:10 Well, it’s my conversation with Jonathan that actually totally I was like adamant, no phone.
0:44:13 I don’t care what the pushback is.
0:44:16 Like, I’m going to slow roll this as long as I can.
0:44:19 And he told me every year you can delay it makes a huge difference.
0:44:19 Absolutely.
0:44:21 Because they have like a prefrontal cortex, right?
0:44:22 Yeah.
0:44:27 The Inuit were really interesting because they have tons of video games, tons of TV.
0:44:34 Like the grandmother we were with was like she spent like a week out in the land hunting caribou.
0:44:37 And then she comes back, she’s like, I got so much CSI to catch up on.
0:44:44 Like there’s this like very like the technology and never like completely squeezed out the other life.
0:44:46 Right?
0:44:47 How is that possible?
0:44:52 Because it’s designed and I say this as, you know, it’s designed to make it effective.
0:44:53 It’s designed to squeeze it out.
0:44:54 There’s no doubt.
0:45:00 And if you have a 16 year old boy or girl and they’re on technology, like how do you limit,
0:45:02 how do they limit that as parents?
0:45:07 I mean, I think some of it is like, and I’m not saying that you would know how to do this at all,
0:45:09 because I don’t want to give that impression.
0:45:14 But I think delay is absolutely the right word for many reasons.
0:45:19 But also it’s about making sure that it is like you’re talking about, like it is not.
0:45:27 The way it works in the brain is it narrows your desires and wants to this one thing.
0:45:28 That’s what happens over time.
0:45:30 I mean, you see it with kids, right?
0:45:34 That it’s like all they do is on their phone, right?
0:45:35 They do nothing else.
0:45:39 And I think that to me is like the key.
0:45:40 And it’s what you’re talking about.
0:45:46 It’s like having these spaces and time and valuing of other things.
0:45:49 I mean, we could talk about this for like an hour.
0:45:52 We can like go on and on about this.
0:45:55 And I feel like we’ve kind of got to attend it.
0:45:57 But no, let’s double click on this for a second.
0:45:59 What are the big points here?
0:46:01 Because this is something when I talk to other parents,
0:46:03 it’s a hot topic to talk about.
0:46:06 When I talk to schools, it’s a hot topic.
0:46:09 People want to know more about it.
0:46:14 They also want to know where they can take strides.
0:46:19 So if parents are listening to this and have a 16-year-old addicted to their phone,
0:46:22 what are the tangible things they can do in the next one month?
0:46:26 Or today, the next month, the next three months to sort of like help.
0:46:27 Okay.
0:46:28 So here’s how it works.
0:46:30 And this is what I’m just writing about right now.
0:46:33 Our brains are these little prediction devices, right?
0:46:35 And when I walk into an environment,
0:46:41 my brain does this quick calculation of where am I going to get my rewards in this environment?
0:46:42 I’m going to maximize the rewards.
0:46:45 And kids are even more this way because their brains are,
0:46:48 the prefrontal cortex is less developed.
0:46:52 If a child walks into the living room and every time they’ve walked into that living room
0:46:55 for the last like five years of their life,
0:46:57 they’ve played on the video game, they’ve looked at their phone,
0:47:02 their brain is just lighting up Legos, firecrackers.
0:47:04 They’re going to use the phone.
0:47:06 It’s going to exclude out everything else.
0:47:10 They’re never going to pick up a book because the phone is designed to do that.
0:47:16 So the only way you can bring back these other things into their life
0:47:19 is to create environments where their brain knows they can’t have it.
0:47:21 You have to.
0:47:24 So does that mean like a technology free weekend?
0:47:26 Does it mean like flip it around?
0:47:30 So that’s like the kind of the desire or like the way we talk about now,
0:47:33 like Sabbath is and hours where we’re not is the other way around.
0:47:37 Life is without it and these are the times we have it.
0:47:38 Oh, interesting.
0:47:38 Okay.
0:47:40 Because then your brain relaxes.
0:47:44 I can’t because again, your brain is just it’s just it’s a prediction device.
0:47:46 It just is predicting where do I get these things?
0:47:49 And if it knows, like I never get it.
0:47:51 If it’s variable reinforcement, then you’re.
0:47:54 Oh, there’s there’s variable reinforcement.
0:47:59 It’s just the tip of the iceberg of the of the tools they use to create this.
0:48:02 No, but I mean, like if you’re like, oh, I can get video games.
0:48:04 Some days at four, I can get it at some days.
0:48:10 It’s like, if you move it around as a parent, you create this sort of like.
0:48:11 I don’t know.
0:48:13 It’s interesting because you could think of the moving data.
0:48:14 That’s a very interesting question to me.
0:48:18 I’ve read both in these books, like you should do it at the same time.
0:48:21 So if you do it at the same time, the brain will know the brain will know.
0:48:23 And if you don’t do it at that time, you’ll get like.
0:48:27 So this is what we currently do and like give me the best practices here
0:48:29 because I’m making this shit up as I go.
0:48:31 But it’s like, okay, we do video games.
0:48:34 It’s like seven, eight, have your homework done.
0:48:36 I would cut out every day.
0:48:37 Oh, I can’t.
0:48:40 Yeah, they learn a lot from video games.
0:48:42 I mean, I would argue they actually learn a lot from video games.
0:48:43 Well, I mean, that’s another thing.
0:48:46 It’s like screens are not screens, right?
0:48:49 It depends on what they’re actually playing, right?
0:48:50 But they don’t need it.
0:48:51 I don’t.
0:48:52 I don’t.
0:48:55 Well, you know, there’s there’s an element of your right.
0:48:56 They don’t need it.
0:49:00 There’s an element of all their friends are doing it.
0:49:02 Playing those video games.
0:49:02 Yeah.
0:49:03 But I mean, they don’t need every day.
0:49:08 Oh, God, I think, you know, if you were to survey parents,
0:49:11 the fact that I give them like eight hours of screen time a week
0:49:14 is probably on the extremely low end.
0:49:17 Is eight hours of screen time going to like hurt them in the long run?
0:49:18 Probably.
0:49:19 This is what I worry about.
0:49:23 I mean, I think, again, it depends on what they’re doing.
0:49:25 Depends on the kid, depends on their reward center.
0:49:27 There’s all these genetics involved.
0:49:30 And like, I have this incredibly addictive personality.
0:49:33 Like, I can get I’m basically addicted to Gmail, right?
0:49:34 Like the interest on Harris.
0:49:37 Or like, I can get like, we’ll play Hey, man.
0:49:38 And I’ll be like, play it again.
0:49:42 You know, like, so like for me, an hour a day playing videos
0:49:43 wouldn’t be good.
0:49:43 OK.
0:49:46 You know, I think for some kids, it wouldn’t be good.
0:49:47 Well, I do change what they play.
0:49:49 So if they’re mean to each other after.
0:49:50 Yeah, there you go.
0:49:51 Consistently.
0:49:52 So we’ve talked about this, right?
0:49:57 Like we took away a certain video game a while ago because I was like,
0:49:58 hey, and I warned them, right?
0:50:01 I’m like, I noticed how you guys interact after you play this.
0:50:01 I don’t like it.
0:50:02 Right.
0:50:03 That’s not what we do.
0:50:06 And that’s not how we treat anybody, little in our family.
0:50:07 And then it kept going.
0:50:09 And I was like, OK, you just can’t play this video game anymore.
0:50:09 So I think that.
0:50:12 And then it came back two years later.
0:50:12 The game.
0:50:12 Yeah.
0:50:14 It was like, do you want to try again?
0:50:15 Like, you know, they’re like, we want to play.
0:50:18 And I’m like, OK, but you know why we lost it, right?
0:50:20 Like, so if it has the same impact,
0:50:22 we’re going to have the same results.
0:50:24 So I think you said like the key thing here,
0:50:27 we always talk about time, hours of whatever screen,
0:50:32 but I think we need new recommendations from AAP,
0:50:36 from all the societies, because an hour of screen time today
0:50:38 can be so different, first of all, what you’re doing.
0:50:39 Oh, totally, yeah.
0:50:41 And then it’s so different than an hour screen time
0:50:42 when I was a kid, right?
0:50:43 It’s just not the same.
0:50:46 So I think you have to do exactly what you’re saying.
0:50:49 You have to like, what happens during that hour screen time?
0:50:50 How does the kid behave?
0:50:53 What do they behave like afterwards, right?
0:50:54 Like, how does it make them feel?
0:50:56 Like, why do we need to do things?
0:50:59 Why do kids need to do things where they feel worse afterwards?
0:51:01 Tell me more about this feeling worse.
0:51:06 Is that like when I try to end it and they won’t let me end it?
0:51:07 Is it how they treat people?
0:51:08 Like, what does it mean to feel worse after?
0:51:09 I think it’s a lot.
0:51:12 I mean, I think you’re doing exactly what I’m saying.
0:51:14 It’s like assessing like–
0:51:16 I’m really just making this stuff up.
0:51:19 I have no idea what I’m doing.
0:51:23 I’m just trying to think like, OK, maybe let’s figure this out.
0:51:26 One thing is that just because the child wants it,
0:51:28 doesn’t mean it’s actually pleasurable.
0:51:28 Of course.
0:51:29 Right?
0:51:31 And so I think a lot of parents think that–
0:51:36 oh, they want it so much that they like it, right?
0:51:37 And that’s just wrong.
0:51:40 That’s based off like 50-year-old neuroscience.
0:51:43 So I’m going to push back on this slightly,
0:51:45 because when I intuitively hear that,
0:51:49 I think in a different way, which is probably completely wrong,
0:51:53 but I think something they care about,
0:51:58 a currency that I can use to manipulate at worst behavior.
0:51:59 Yes, yes.
0:52:01 And I think lots of parents think that.
0:52:03 Or positively reward behavior at best, maybe.
0:52:06 And so it’s like the one thing in their lives where I’m like,
0:52:08 OK, I have something that I know they want.
0:52:09 Yes.
0:52:10 I think that’s the common.
0:52:11 That’s very common.
0:52:13 And I think I felt that way too about it at first.
0:52:17 But then I was like, is it worth it?
0:52:18 Go deeper on that.
0:52:22 Like, OK, so we had like Rosie, maybe like when she was six,
0:52:25 it was like starting like with Netflix, right?
0:52:28 Which is insane, right?
0:52:33 And if you watch it, it makes me feel insane to watch some of it.
0:52:36 It’s like so fast, and it’s so psychedelic.
0:52:37 And it’s just like, ah.
0:52:40 And every night she would get some time.
0:52:42 And like you say, it was like this currency, right?
0:52:45 This like reward, this like manipulative device.
0:52:48 But then at the end of it, she’d be so crazy.
0:52:51 And every night would be like a struggle and a fight.
0:52:54 And like she’d be like a different child.
0:52:56 And it was just like, I don’t think this is worth it.
0:52:57 I don’t need this.
0:53:01 I can, I don’t, first of all, I can motivate her in other ways.
0:53:03 Ways that don’t make her scream at me.
0:53:04 And ways that don’t feel like this struggle.
0:53:06 And don’t make her hyper.
0:53:06 And don’t.
0:53:09 And it just feels like a waste of her time.
0:53:13 I think I come at it more from the perspective of it’s not hurting her.
0:53:16 But actually, she’s going to feel better and have.
0:53:17 If she does something.
0:53:18 Yeah.
0:53:20 And it like life long better.
0:53:23 You know, because what you’re doing is you’re building habits.
0:53:23 Oh, totally.
0:53:24 Right.
0:53:27 Like when I’m, when I’m bored, when I, when I want to relax
0:53:30 and I would even question whether it’s relaxing for kids a lot.
0:53:31 Especially video games.
0:53:32 I do this.
0:53:33 Right.
0:53:34 I could build that habit.
0:53:36 I feel that having Rosie like that.
0:53:40 But maybe, maybe, maybe better in her life would be like.
0:53:43 When I’m bored, I play, I play the piano.
0:53:47 I read a book and she’s never going to pick those things.
0:53:49 If she knows the other is available.
0:53:51 I have one kid who probably reads too much.
0:53:53 So.
0:53:54 If that’s even possible.
0:53:56 I think most kids are not like that.
0:53:56 Yeah.
0:53:59 I take away books as like a consequence.
0:54:02 You know, it’s like, he’s, he’s like, you know.
0:54:05 Books, like paper books and Kindle.
0:54:06 Like he’s on the Kindle all the time.
0:54:08 It’s attached to my account.
0:54:11 So, hey, I get these crazy Amazon recommendations.
0:54:14 It’s like, I’m like, man, you don’t know me.
0:54:16 I’m not worried about AI taking over at all.
0:54:16 Right.
0:54:19 Then I open the Kindle and I’m like, oh, now I know where to get it from.
0:54:22 But like it’s, it’s a currency coming back to technology.
0:54:24 It’s like, I know something that motivates him.
0:54:28 I know that, hey, I’m going to, you know, this is a consequence,
0:54:30 a natural consequence to your behavior.
0:54:33 And then he’s like, oh, you’re the dad that takes away a reading from his child.
0:54:38 But that currency to me is more valuable than like watching Netflix.
0:54:41 Does it matter if they’re, if it’s sort of like the same thing,
0:54:44 if they’re reading a book about the same show they’d be watching, do you think?
0:54:48 Or I mean, I think it just, again, it depends on what you value.
0:54:48 What do you think?
0:54:52 Well, for a while, Rosie was kind of addicted to audiobooks.
0:54:53 Okay.
0:54:56 Like hours and hours and hours, like six, seven hours on the weekends,
0:54:58 you know, of just listening.
0:55:00 And to some parents, that would be like amazing.
0:55:03 And I mean, I think that’s better than watching cartoons
0:55:05 in the sense that like she learned narrative structure.
0:55:08 She learned an incredible vocabulary, right?
0:55:11 Like, like, so that’s what I’m saying, like I had to like figure out,
0:55:14 but then it was, I could see it was like squeezing out other things.
0:55:16 And it was like creating conflict, right?
0:55:17 Like, so it’s like, what do I value?
0:55:19 So it’s what it takes over.
0:55:21 So this value thing is super interesting because it’s,
0:55:26 it makes me wonder if a lot of our parenting is driven by like,
0:55:29 we’re trying to succeed through our children,
0:55:32 instead of putting our children in a position where they can succeed.
0:55:33 I think that we don’t-
0:55:34 It’s like, oh, you get into Yale.
0:55:36 That’s my success as much as your success.
0:55:38 And you’re transmitting the value of that.
0:55:39 Yeah.
0:55:39 Right.
0:55:42 I don’t think we stop and think enough about like,
0:55:46 how our actions and what we say and what we,
0:55:51 the currency we use with children transmits values.
0:55:55 So for instance, like, I’m sitting there talking to one of my friends
0:55:59 about Jonathan’s book and about literally about this topic
0:56:02 and have it with, with the mom of two children.
0:56:05 And the 13 year old comes over and shows us,
0:56:07 look mom, look at this video of this gerbil.
0:56:09 Like, while we’re talking about this topic and what does the mom do?
0:56:12 Stops looks the video.
0:56:17 Stops our face-to-face conversation to look at this like TikTok video
0:56:19 and like engage with it.
0:56:21 And I just left there and I was like,
0:56:25 what is that transmitting to the children in the room?
0:56:26 That they’re the VIP, right?
0:56:27 You’re the-
0:56:30 And this TikTok video is more important
0:56:33 than a face-to-face conversation with a friend.
0:56:36 And it’s not something you’re actively communicating,
0:56:37 but it’s something they’re receiving through.
0:56:39 Oh, I think it is active.
0:56:40 I mean, yes, in the sense that like-
0:56:41 Like not directive.
0:56:44 I’m not saying, oh, the TikTok video is more important,
0:56:45 but that’s not how kids learn.
0:56:48 Kids don’t learn from what you say is important.
0:56:50 Kids learn through practice and modeling.
0:56:53 That is how kids learn, everything.
0:56:56 What would be an alternative way to handle that situation?
0:56:59 I would say, I’m talking, I’m talking to,
0:56:59 this is important.
0:57:01 I’m having a conversation with Mike Lean right now.
0:57:03 You know, let’s discuss this later.
0:57:05 And then I would tell the child later,
0:57:10 you know, number one, that’s really rude to, you know,
0:57:11 it’s a 13-year-old kid.
0:57:14 Like they should know at that point that’s rude to,
0:57:16 you know, interrupt in the middle of a conversation.
0:57:19 Like I would tell Rosie that nicely,
0:57:20 not maybe not as mean as I just said it.
0:57:23 Do that after, not in the moment.
0:57:24 I wouldn’t do it in the moment.
0:57:26 You wouldn’t embarrass the child.
0:57:27 You’d make a big scene.
0:57:30 In the moment, it’s more of a performative parenting device.
0:57:33 Which is, again, what do you value?
0:57:35 You’re looking good as a parent.
0:57:37 They’re less likely to learn, but you feel better.
0:57:38 That’s right.
0:57:40 You’re basically shaming them, right?
0:57:42 But I would tell them in the moment,
0:57:44 like this conversation is important.
0:57:47 And there, I’m transuming the value of,
0:57:49 I value a face-to-face interaction
0:57:51 more than some gerbil video on TikTok.
0:57:51 Right.
0:57:54 But if you look around you and you will see this everywhere,
0:57:58 you will see parents actively valuing and modeling
0:58:00 the love of technology.
0:58:03 The reward system is really a value system.
0:58:03 Yeah.
0:58:05 The reward system in the brain
0:58:10 is made in animals to make sure they get food,
0:58:12 it’s sex, water, safety, right?
0:58:15 But in humans, it can be hooked up to anything
0:58:16 that seems valuable.
0:58:18 And that’s what children are learning.
0:58:21 They’re learning that the screen, these videos,
0:58:25 this video game, this is what our society,
0:58:27 this is what my family values.
0:58:27 It’s so hard.
0:58:31 I leave my phone in a different room
0:58:32 when we eat dinner.
0:58:33 Yeah.
0:58:35 Yeah, we have one phone.
0:58:37 And it’s in a drawer.
0:58:38 And I feel it, right?
0:58:39 You want to go over there?
0:58:40 I do.
0:58:43 I definitely feel a pull towards it, right?
0:58:45 Yeah, they call it motivational magnets.
0:58:46 It’s just like, well, it’s like, where’s my phone?
0:58:48 You know, like, you don’t have this thing on me.
0:58:48 Yeah, that’s your brain.
0:58:51 But it’s interesting because a couple of weeks ago,
0:58:53 my youngest came up to me and he’s like,
0:58:56 “I like that you never have your phone at dinner.”
0:58:58 I love that.
0:59:01 And I was like, I didn’t even think you noticed.
0:59:02 And it’s like, yeah.
0:59:02 Oh.
0:59:03 It’s like, yeah.
0:59:07 Like, it was just this moment of like, oh, I was like,
0:59:10 so I was doing it because I wanted to pay attention to them.
0:59:13 And my motivation was like less of a,
0:59:16 you know, sort of communicating values, which is like,
0:59:17 we need to chat face to face.
0:59:19 But it was also about avoiding regret.
0:59:21 I didn’t want them, I always think about like,
0:59:23 “Well, they’re going to move out one day.”
0:59:24 Yeah.
0:59:25 I hope eventually.
0:59:30 And when they move out, I’m going to wish I was having dinner with them.
0:59:30 Yeah.
0:59:32 And what was more important?
0:59:34 Checking your email for the under time or like.
0:59:36 And so all of these thoughts lead to like,
0:59:37 “I’m just going to leave.”
0:59:40 And I’m not, I usually am, but like,
0:59:44 I’m not 100% confident that I can just like leave it in my pocket.
0:59:45 And then.
0:59:46 You can’t.
0:59:48 But the other thing that I’ve started doing recently is I just,
0:59:50 when I’m with them, I put it on silent mode.
0:59:51 For sure.
0:59:53 And the only people that can get through silent mode are them.
0:59:54 Right.
0:59:59 I mean, all these things that you’re doing are transmitting the value of like,
1:00:03 you care about interacting with them more than the phone.
1:00:04 Yeah.
1:00:05 I didn’t think they paid attention.
1:00:07 Oh, at least one of them pays attention.
1:00:08 I think it’s a fascinating observation.
1:00:12 I’ve been, I’m writing a chapter now about how actually kids don’t like
1:00:14 technology as much as you think they do.
1:00:15 Oh, tell me more about this.
1:00:17 Because I just ask them.
1:00:18 But can they answer that?
1:00:21 I mean, if you ask us what kind of car you want,
1:00:23 you end up with Homer Simpson’s car, right?
1:00:25 I’m not, it’s not that blatant.
1:00:31 And you can actually find it in these, like in conversations or in the books,
1:00:35 people will say these, people will like say what you just said.
1:00:39 Like kids will say things like, oh, I really like this night because we’re not on the screens.
1:00:41 You know, so kid, that’s what I’m saying.
1:00:45 Like, but you can ask them, you can say like, well, what do you do on the iPad after school?
1:00:46 I do this, I do that.
1:00:50 And then one little girl said, without even being saying anything was like,
1:00:54 but you know, I would do something more fun and more better if my parents let me.
1:00:56 Oh, you don’t want to actually be on the iPad?
1:00:57 No, I don’t really want to be on the iPad.
1:01:00 Actually, and Rosie one day said to me, like not that long ago,
1:01:02 she said, I thought you wanted me on the Netflix.
1:01:04 Oh, interesting.
1:01:07 Because I kind of did in the sense that like what you’re talking about using it as currency,
1:01:08 right?
1:01:10 So I was like pushing it at her, right?
1:01:12 You need to find something.
1:01:14 You don’t need it.
1:01:15 It was really weird.
1:01:23 Again, it’s this question of wanting it, wanting to pick up your phone and actually
1:01:26 enjoying it and actually valuing it.
1:01:31 And actually like, I think most kids would rather do something else,
1:01:34 but they are like, especially teenagers that have been on technology for so long.
1:01:38 I mean, their brains are so wired to want it.
1:01:40 They call them motivational magnets.
1:01:47 The cues turn into these like magnets that pull you there, not the actual software, the cues.
1:01:50 And you actually transfer the value onto the cues.
1:01:54 And it’s this very, very, very strong pull to get away from that.
1:01:57 You have to protect the child from the cues.
1:02:00 What do you tell your, I don’t know, like I’m picking random ages here,
1:02:07 but like your 16 year old or your 12 year old that they can’t watch a show on Netflix.
1:02:09 Or that’s not what our family does or values.
1:02:12 But then they go to school and everybody’s talking about it.
1:02:13 Now they feel left out.
1:02:15 They feel like they’re not a part of something.
1:02:17 Right, right.
1:02:19 And isn’t it interesting how it’s all about fear?
1:02:22 Because we think it’s about reward, but it’s actually about fear.
1:02:25 And the fear and the reward system are all enmeshed.
1:02:30 So I think at the teenage years, you start, you really think,
1:02:34 they really need to start to understand how it affects their brain, right?
1:02:37 You know, and how it’s manipulating their brain,
1:02:42 kind of wiring up their reward system to prioritize it over everything else.
1:02:45 Teenagers don’t like to be manipulated.
1:02:46 So I think you start there.
1:02:49 You start with this conversation of how this actually works.
1:02:53 One of the neuroscientists said to me, he has a 12 year old boy just gave him a phone.
1:02:57 He gave him this like hour long PowerPoint on what the phone does to his brain
1:03:01 and how it works and how this thing called sign tracking and all this stuff.
1:03:03 And then they sat down and they said, okay,
1:03:06 he said, how much of your day do you want the phone to take up?
1:03:08 Let’s write it down.
1:03:09 How much do you want?
1:03:11 And I think the kids is on like 45 minutes a day,
1:03:15 which sounds about what you’re doing, right?
1:03:15 Yeah.
1:03:17 And he said, okay.
1:03:18 And they wrote it out.
1:03:21 And he said, now it’s my job as the parent to hold him to that.
1:03:27 It becomes more of this cooperation thing where they’re like working together.
1:03:28 Well, that’s what it is, right?
1:03:30 Like we’re effectively trying to come up with something with them,
1:03:33 but you’re still the parental authority.
1:03:33 Oh, I think absolutely.
1:03:36 But you move from parent to coaching.
1:03:38 Yeah, it’s more, it’s more guidance.
1:03:43 But then there, I think that there’s these rules that makes sense just neurologically,
1:03:46 you know, like no, no screens in the bedroom.
1:03:47 Yeah.
1:03:52 I mean, like we got rid of, right now we have no screens after seven.
1:03:54 And I try to hold it to myself.
1:03:56 I can’t do that just because of homework too.
1:03:58 Like they do all their homework on technology.
1:03:59 Sure.
1:03:59 I mean, yeah, yeah.
1:04:02 But like they leave their phones in the living room.
1:04:05 They’re not letting their phones in their bedroom at this point.
1:04:06 You know, this all changes.
1:04:09 But try it in the sense that like if you can,
1:04:13 one of the neuroscientists who studies dopamine in the eyes
1:04:15 told me three hours before bedtime.
1:04:17 Yeah.
1:04:18 And so I started doing, I mean, it’s crazy, right?
1:04:20 That’s like seven o’clock, right?
1:04:20 Yeah.
1:04:23 And I started doing it like maybe November.
1:04:26 And I, Shane, I sleep like I’ve never slept before.
1:04:27 I mean, I’m not kidding you.
1:04:30 I’m like, I mean, I, and I think, I think kids will feel the same.
1:04:32 I mean, it really affects the sleep.
1:04:33 There’s no doubt.
1:04:35 Is there a book you came across in your research
1:04:39 that like parents of teens, you know, sort of 12, 13 can be like,
1:04:42 hey, before you get a phone, before we talk about technology,
1:04:45 I want you to read this and let’s have a conversation about it.
1:04:47 I would recommend watching social dilemma.
1:04:47 Okay.
1:04:48 Have you watched that?
1:04:48 Have you guys watched that?
1:04:49 No.
1:04:50 Definitely watched that.
1:04:53 I’ve heard of some teenagers tell me they’ve had to watch it in school.
1:04:53 Like it’s.
1:04:53 Oh, interesting.
1:04:54 Yeah.
1:04:55 It’s, it’s good.
1:04:57 The same schools that don’t ban phones.
1:04:58 I’m not sure.
1:05:00 I haven’t done the cross correlation data on that.
1:05:03 But I, but the problem is, is that parents don’t know these things.
1:05:07 Like parents, it’s not like I say, like it’s not an even playing field right now.
1:05:14 The tech industry has all this knowledge and tools and goals about technology and
1:05:18 how it affects your brain and it affects children’s brain more that way because of,
1:05:24 you know, they’re not as developed and parents have none of it right now.
1:05:26 It’s a really, really uneven playing field.
1:05:30 And we’re playing with these old rules of two hours of screen time at night.
1:05:35 And I try to be, I mean, personally, I just try it like the rules are interesting.
1:05:39 We’re trying to get away from rules into more like autonomy.
1:05:43 If you will, within, within certain limits of how that goes.
1:05:46 But I mean, it’s just a nonstop struggle.
1:05:47 And I have great kids.
1:05:52 So I can imagine if you had more difficult children, I can like,
1:05:55 like sometimes they go to bed and I’m like, man, I just won the Olympics.
1:05:55 Right.
1:05:56 Nobody died today.
1:05:57 Everybody ate food.
1:05:59 This is a win.
1:06:00 And they were on the screen for an hour.
1:06:03 And you know, like some days I’m like, oh, I just don’t care.
1:06:04 I need a break.
1:06:04 Right.
1:06:08 Like I need a, I mean, it really is about setting up your environment.
1:06:11 I mean, I said that earlier.
1:06:14 I said, like you set up an environment where the child can be autonomous
1:06:17 and you, it’s about doing that with the screens.
1:06:18 Well, so it’s going to be hard.
1:06:22 It’s just going to be harder because they, they are magnets.
1:06:24 I want to come back to this just before we end.
1:06:31 But like what have you learned about in not these tribes, but in sort of Western culture,
1:06:37 what can we do for our environment that sort of at least adds friction to things,
1:06:39 if not removes them as a possibility.
1:06:41 You mean for technology?
1:06:43 Well, for technology or anything.
1:06:48 Like what can we do to encourage autonomy in our kids through the environment?
1:06:51 I’m a big fan of the environment is like the hidden hand.
1:06:52 It is.
1:06:55 I think James Clair said that the hidden hand that shapes your, your.
1:06:56 Yeah.
1:06:59 I mean, like you said, like a prediction machine, I come into an environment and it’s like,
1:07:02 I know, like I’m predicting everything that I’ve done here in the past,
1:07:04 especially with younger children.
1:07:06 I mean, older children too.
1:07:10 It’s about empowering them so you don’t have to say anything to them.
1:07:11 Right.
1:07:16 It’s teaching them the skills they need so that they can be autonomous in your environment.
1:07:19 So you can either change the environment and get rid of everything,
1:07:21 which is what we kind of tend to do with kids.
1:07:24 But then you just leave them unempowered, right?
1:07:27 Or you slowly teach them, you know?
1:07:29 So does that make sense?
1:07:29 A little bit.
1:07:30 Yeah.
1:07:33 I think it’s just, I’m trying to make it practical for.
1:07:33 Right.
1:07:35 So give me an example of something that you’ve.
1:07:37 Like a house environment.
1:07:38 Like what are the things?
1:07:42 So like one thing that you mentioned that I picked up on, which I mean, we don’t do.
1:07:44 Other people may or may not.
1:07:47 And I really try not to judge other people.
1:07:48 Everybody’s doing their best.
1:07:49 I really do.
1:07:50 And every kid is different.
1:07:51 That’s the thing too.
1:07:55 So, but like having a TV in your room or having something like that.
1:07:56 So that’s an environmental choice, right?
1:07:57 Where you put the TV.
1:07:59 That’s a parental choice.
1:08:04 And so if you put the TV and sort of the main floor, you end up with one sort of,
1:08:06 you’re exemplifying one thing.
1:08:06 Right.
1:08:10 And if you put it in the basement, you’re sort of like putting it out of the way.
1:08:11 It’s not a show piece.
1:08:16 And then the kids get more autonomy in a way because they have to go downstairs and like
1:08:20 figure it out themselves and hang out with their friends if they want to watch TV.
1:08:23 And so like I’m just thinking, are there any other environmental?
1:08:24 I would love to learn some.
1:08:26 I’m sure everybody else listening would.
1:08:30 I think one of the things that maybe we haven’t said explicitly that should be said is like,
1:08:35 I don’t think children can be autonomous with technology, some technology.
1:08:36 Oh, that’s interesting.
1:08:36 Okay.
1:08:36 All right.
1:08:38 I don’t think that they’re capable.
1:08:39 I don’t even think adults are capable.
1:08:41 I mean, I’m not.
1:08:44 So use the environment to shape the technologies.
1:08:48 It’s like screen time limits or app limits or something.
1:08:48 That’s right.
1:08:50 So like let’s take like Inuit hunting.
1:08:57 A lot of one of the big goals in is to teach boys, but now girls too, it’s very mixed,
1:08:58 to seal hunt.
1:09:00 Okay.
1:09:02 They have to do, many families have to do it.
1:09:05 And like, you know, this is a skill you have to learn, right?
1:09:06 Well, the seal hunt is crazy.
1:09:09 It is a crazy skill.
1:09:13 You have to go out on the ice, poke a hole in the middle of nowhere,
1:09:17 and then they put a little tiny like feather in the hole.
1:09:21 And you sit there and you steer at it for six hours until the feather moves.
1:09:23 And then you stab the ice.
1:09:27 This is a very difficult task.
1:09:30 Well, you can’t just take a six-year-old and tell them to go seal hunt.
1:09:30 Yeah.
1:09:31 Right?
1:09:32 Well, what do they do?
1:09:33 The dad explained it to me.
1:09:37 He’s like, when the kid can stay outside for six hours, then we’ll take them with us,
1:09:40 but we’ll park them like way out because if they’re make noise,
1:09:42 you’re going to mess it all up.
1:09:46 And then if the kid still wants to do it, then we’ll slowly bring them closer.
1:09:49 And it’s like, I mean, I think that’s how we think of technology,
1:09:51 is a little bit like seal hunting, right?
1:09:52 A little bit at a time.
1:09:54 Demonstrate responsibility.
1:09:55 And then…
1:09:58 Yeah, you delay it until they show a lot of interest and really want it.
1:10:01 And then it’s like, okay, where can you go in the seal hunt?
1:10:02 You’re going to be way out there.
1:10:02 Right.
1:10:04 And then you show me, you can do that.
1:10:06 And then I’ll pull you in a little bit closer.
1:10:09 I guess that’s kind of like what I’ve done intuitively personally,
1:10:10 which is like, okay, we’ll show me.
1:10:14 You can be responsible before we start adding more things to your phone.
1:10:15 Right. It’s exactly what you like.
1:10:20 And delaying it, you know, because the kid’s not capable of standing over the whole…
1:10:21 I’m not capable.
1:10:23 …of six hours, right?
1:10:26 And it’s like the parent’s not going to stick them in that situation and have them fail.
1:10:30 Well, I think if you put a phone, give the child a phone and stick them in their bedroom
1:10:35 or the video game, you’re putting them at the seal hole to fail, right?
1:10:40 And so it’s not new that this idea, I just think that we have to treat this thing
1:10:44 as this tool that kids can’t learn yet.
1:10:48 They don’t have the mental capacity to sit over the hole for six hours.
1:10:51 They don’t have the mental capacity to carry a phone into their room and not go to bed.
1:10:53 It’s a slow process.
1:10:55 Oh, yeah. And like everybody’s doing the best they can.
1:10:57 Every child is different.
1:10:59 Every sort of like environment is different.
1:11:02 But then like every broader environment is different, too.
1:11:04 Actually, the community, the school, absolutely.
1:11:06 A lot of schools are all technology now.
1:11:10 There’s iPads and computers and laptops.
1:11:14 And the school is crazy, which I think actually means at home,
1:11:15 it’s more important to switch it around.
1:11:17 Oh, to go the other way, that’s interesting.
1:11:19 They need to build these other skills.
1:11:21 I mean, like I’m a big fan of Cal Newport.
1:11:25 And he talks a lot about how like concentrating in these,
1:11:29 in doing this kind of deep thinking and stuff, it takes practice.
1:11:31 We always end with the same question,
1:11:34 but I’m going to use a slightly different version of it for you,
1:11:37 which is what is success as a parent for you?
1:11:39 So when I first, before I wrote the book,
1:11:41 it was like what you’re talking about, like Yale.
1:11:45 You know, it’s like Rosie speaking Mandarin and going to Yale.
1:11:48 Was this like, you know, like, and it, I don’t, I don’t even.
1:11:51 Ugh. But then when I wrote the book, I was like,
1:11:56 success for me is Rosie feeling, growing up mentally healthy.
1:11:58 What does that mean, mentally healthy?
1:12:01 Not having tons of anxiety and depression
1:12:06 and like healing societal and like, you know, like enjoying life.
1:12:12 You know, like really enjoying life and enjoying our relationship,
1:12:13 enjoying being part of the family,
1:12:16 which I think is important for like mentally healthy kids.
1:12:18 You know, that means working, having a job.
1:12:20 That means having a family.
1:12:22 That means whatever that means for her.
1:12:24 But like, you know, waking up and being excited
1:12:28 about the things she’s doing in that day.
1:12:30 That’s a beautiful way to end this conversation.
1:12:32 Thank you so much for taking the time.
1:12:43 Thanks for listening and learning with us for a complete list of episodes,
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