Rebel Talent

0:00:04 – Hi, and welcome to the A16Z podcast, I’m Hannah.
0:00:06 This episode is all about rebel behavior
0:00:09 with author and Harvard business professor Francesca Gino,
0:00:12 who wrote the definitive book on rebel talent
0:00:15 based on studies of why leaders and employees
0:00:17 make the decisions they do at work.
0:00:20 Not all rebels are troublemakers and rabble-rousers.
0:00:22 Rebels often change the world and the workplace
0:00:24 for the better, pushing organizations
0:00:28 towards creativity and innovation and out-of-stagnation
0:00:30 with their unconventional outlooks.
0:00:32 We start with what rebels and rebellious behavior
0:00:36 in this context really means to the values and characteristics
0:00:37 these types of leaders tend to have
0:00:40 and stories of how rebels can create constructive
0:00:42 and positive change.
0:00:44 So in your previous work, you had focused on rule-breaking,
0:00:46 but in the negative sense, what caused you to shift
0:00:49 towards the positive aspect of rebellious behavior?
0:00:51 – What I wanted to do is shift our thinking
0:00:53 when it comes to rebels.
0:00:55 I had spent so many hours in organizations
0:00:59 where the rebels are thought of as the troublemakers,
0:01:02 the outcasts, people who break the rules
0:01:05 just for the sake of breaking rules
0:01:06 without too much thought.
0:01:08 Sometimes they’re even called the jerks
0:01:10 or the people who slow you down
0:01:12 in decision-making processes.
0:01:15 I really wanted to shift that thinking and say,
0:01:18 rebels are in fact not people who break rules
0:01:19 just for the sake of breaking rules,
0:01:21 but they’re people who break rules
0:01:24 that hold them and others back in a way
0:01:26 that is positive and constructive for the organization.
0:01:30 – In your definition, rebel is positive.
0:01:32 Someone who understands those rules
0:01:36 and chooses to push past them in creative ways.
0:01:37 – That’s exactly right.
0:01:39 So I’ve been spending quite a bit of time
0:01:41 in all sorts of organizations
0:01:43 and I was researching different leaders,
0:01:46 spending time with them, looking at what was unique
0:01:49 about their rule-breaking that was creating positive change
0:01:52 for their organizations or society more broadly.
0:01:55 I’ll give you a concrete example of this story
0:01:58 that really brought it together for me.
0:02:02 I was taking a stroll in a bookstore in Cambridge
0:02:05 where I live and I saw a book
0:02:06 and the title caught my attention.
0:02:11 The title was Never Trust a Skin Italian Chef.
0:02:12 And I’m Italian, I was born in Italy
0:02:15 and so I started flipping through the pages
0:02:17 and there were these beautiful pictures of dishes
0:02:21 that I grew up with, but they actually look nothing
0:02:23 like the dishes I grew up with.
0:02:25 And this was the story of a chef.
0:02:29 His name is Massimo Boutouro created a restaurant
0:02:33 where he decided to reinvent traditional Italian dishes.
0:02:34 If you know anything about Italians,
0:02:35 two things are true.
0:02:39 First, we have a lot of rules when it comes to cooking
0:02:41 from the type of sauce that goes with the specific type
0:02:45 of pasta to how is it that you make these dishes.
0:02:49 And also we cherish our old ways.
0:02:51 We’re talking about recipes
0:02:53 that have been passed on for centuries.
0:02:56 He studies the tradition really well,
0:02:57 but then he broke away from them
0:03:00 and he came up with something that was very innovative.
0:03:03 And so it really triggered this question of
0:03:05 how is it that he did that?
0:03:07 Why is it that he was able to be successful?
0:03:10 – So is it because the output was better?
0:03:13 What was it that made his rule-breaking positive?
0:03:16 – He was raising questions about rules,
0:03:18 processes, tradition that exist
0:03:21 and that most of us take for granted,
0:03:24 but he was showing curiosity in a way that allowed him
0:03:26 to bring out his creativity in a context
0:03:30 that had not seen a lot of creativity for a long time.
0:03:33 So you’re breaking rules in a context
0:03:36 where people have not shown curiosity.
0:03:39 They’ve taken things for granted,
0:03:41 but in the breaking of the rules,
0:03:46 you end up with innovative solutions to problems that,
0:03:47 again, you’ve taken for granted
0:03:49 of not questioned in the past.
0:03:51 – So it’s a way out of stagnation, essentially.
0:03:56 – Exactly, and it’s also a way out of routines
0:04:00 or processes that we just accept for the way they are
0:04:02 rather than approach with curiosity.
0:04:04 – What is the line?
0:04:06 I mean, should we all be exhibiting
0:04:10 that kind of rebellious sort of tendencies all the time
0:04:11 or are there certain conditions
0:04:14 under which it’s appropriate and when it’s not
0:04:16 and when is that rebel behavior really
0:04:18 the most productive and when is it just
0:04:20 leading you into chaos?
0:04:22 – That’s a really good question to ask.
0:04:24 One of the things that I’ve noticed
0:04:27 is the distinctions between values and behavior.
0:04:31 So rebel leaders are very, very clear on the values.
0:04:34 The aerial investment, what the rule picked up
0:04:37 was importance of having a good reputation.
0:04:39 The fact that we’re always keeping our clients
0:04:41 in our mind and we wanna make sure
0:04:43 that all our communications are clear.
0:04:46 Once the values really clear,
0:04:48 you can allow more flexibility on the behaviors
0:04:50 that are gonna get you there.
0:04:54 And so when people are clear on the commitment
0:04:57 that they’ve made to the leader and to the organizations,
0:04:59 I think that they do have better judgments
0:05:01 about how to get there,
0:05:06 but the values should not be questioned or touched.
0:05:07 And so for many of these businesses,
0:05:12 integrity or being respectful or doing the right thing
0:05:16 is an important value to sustain.
0:05:18 And the other thing that is interesting is that
0:05:22 in businesses where rebelliousness is encouraged,
0:05:25 people feel trusted for what they do.
0:05:27 And so with that, it seems that they also
0:05:30 have a better judgment in terms of deciding,
0:05:32 is this a time where I should show curiosity,
0:05:35 ask questions or just get the work done.
0:05:37 – So by very nature of having your
0:05:40 kind of rebellious instincts allowed,
0:05:42 you develop better judgment about where
0:05:44 and when it is appropriate to use them.
0:05:45 – Exactly.
0:05:47 Some people find it paradoxical
0:05:50 because you would expect that if we allow
0:05:52 other people to have more control or autonomy,
0:05:54 we’re gonna end up with pure chaos.
0:05:55 That’s not the case.
0:05:57 – Let’s circle back and talk about
0:05:59 how you actually define different qualities
0:06:01 of rebellious behavior.
0:06:02 You kind of break it down
0:06:05 into the core elements of rebel behavior.
0:06:07 – I identify these characteristics.
0:06:10 And if you think about each one of them,
0:06:13 engaging and using that characteristic
0:06:16 means of fighting against something.
0:06:19 So the five categories are novelty, curiosity,
0:06:22 perspective, diversity and authenticity.
0:06:24 And let me define each of them quickly.
0:06:28 Novelty is this desire to go for
0:06:30 what’s unfamiliar and uncomfortable
0:06:33 rather than sticking to our tendencies
0:06:35 to go to unfamiliar and comfortable.
0:06:37 – And rebels enjoy that precisely
0:06:39 because it’s something new and uncomfortable.
0:06:41 – That’s exactly right.
0:06:43 Rebels have this incredible desire
0:06:47 to do something that is gonna challenge them.
0:06:48 That’s not our human tendency.
0:06:51 Our human tendency is to go with the comfortable,
0:06:53 the familiar.
0:06:57 And so the rebels fight against that tendency
0:07:01 and that common behavior and they do something different.
0:07:05 Curiosity is all about asking questions
0:07:07 and showing that sense of wonder
0:07:09 that we used to have when we were little kids.
0:07:12 In situations where most other people
0:07:16 would just go with what is already there.
0:07:19 Whether it’s a process, a tradition, a routine,
0:07:22 whatever that is, they say to the status quo
0:07:25 rather than asking questions and moving us forward.
0:07:28 If you look at the data on how we grew up,
0:07:30 as it turns out we’re born with a lot of curiosity
0:07:34 and then curiosity, the data says,
0:07:36 peaks at the age four and five
0:07:38 and then unfortunately declines from there.
0:07:39 – So young.
0:07:40 – So young.
0:07:43 So I have a three-year-old and it’s a constant question
0:07:47 and constant asking from why is it that we need to dress
0:07:49 when we leave the house to why is it
0:07:50 that we need to pay for stuff?
0:07:52 Why is it that we live on earth?
0:07:55 The sense of wonder in approaching the world.
0:07:58 We tend to lose that as we grow up.
0:08:01 I was very much interested in what organizations can do
0:08:04 to retain curiosity alive.
0:08:08 So we had about 350 people, those sorts of jobs,
0:08:09 measure their level of curiosity,
0:08:12 then we sort of let them do their job
0:08:15 as they were starting in their new ventures.
0:08:17 We went back to them six to eight months later.
0:08:20 And what we saw was when we measure curiosity again
0:08:23 is that curiosity had dropped across the board
0:08:25 by at least 20%.
0:08:29 And that’s a signal that often we enter jobs
0:08:32 that rather than keeping our curiosity alive,
0:08:35 they kill our curiosity.
0:08:38 And that’s disappointing and sad.
0:08:40 And I see a real opportunity there.
0:08:42 Exactly, it’s a real loss.
0:08:44 And so why does that happen?
0:08:47 And why is it that organizations that are not doing that,
0:08:51 what it is that they do to in fact keep curiosity alive?
0:08:53 And how is it different from novelty actually?
0:08:55 Because they kind of seem like two sides
0:08:56 of the same coin to me.
0:08:59 Curiosity is almost the hunger for the novelty.
0:09:02 Yeah, so they are definitely related.
0:09:05 So in a sense, curiosity could be a precursor,
0:09:07 if you will, to novelty.
0:09:12 Novelty, I see it as more as stretching yourself
0:09:15 and making sure that you put yourself in situations
0:09:17 where there are challenges.
0:09:19 For example, a business,
0:09:22 I don’t think most of us would expect any novelty whatsoever.
0:09:26 It’s a fast food chain in the middle of Tendency in West Virginia.
0:09:28 They have about 30 stores.
0:09:31 Their name is Pal Sudden Service.
0:09:33 If you look at any measure of performance,
0:09:34 revenue per square, you name it,
0:09:36 they beat the competition by far.
0:09:39 And we’re talking about big brands like McDonald’s,
0:09:42 Wendy’s, Burger King’s, so they’re doing incredibly well.
0:09:44 So if it plays like McDonald’s,
0:09:47 you get an hour, two hours of training per station.
0:09:52 At Pal Sudden Service, you get 135 hours of training per station.
0:09:52 Wow.
0:09:55 So they make people feel like experts in what they do,
0:09:58 thinking that that is going to give them some free space
0:10:00 in their mind to innovate or think creative
0:10:02 about how to improve on their jobs.
0:10:05 But what’s interesting is that I was in the stores,
0:10:11 so these are big blue boxes with fries and hot dog on their roofs.
0:10:13 The work at rush hours is pretty impressive.
0:10:15 Every worker is working really fast,
0:10:18 and you would think that the job that you’re doing
0:10:21 becomes monotonous, it becomes a routine.
0:10:24 And the general managers at each of the stores have thought about that.
0:10:27 And so they give people the way in which
0:10:30 they can experience novelty on a day-to-day basis.
0:10:33 Every worker moves according to a shift
0:10:35 from station to station throughout the day,
0:10:37 but they actually learn about the order
0:10:39 that they’re going to follow for a specific day
0:10:40 when they show up for work.
0:10:41 They don’t know it.
0:10:43 It’s a surprise, it’s unpredictable.
0:10:45 And what is interesting is that that’s just a small way
0:10:47 in which I challenge you for novelty.
0:10:49 So that’s, I think, a clear example
0:10:54 where novelty is at stake rather than curiosity, per se.
0:10:55 Yes, interesting.
0:11:00 Perspective is about fighting that tendency that we all have
0:11:04 to come to situations or problems with only one view.
0:11:06 So Chef Massimo Boutoura owns this restaurant
0:11:08 called the Stria Francesca.
0:11:10 And it’s a three Michelin star restaurant.
0:11:13 Once a week, he asked one person on his staff
0:11:15 to cook the stuffed meal.
0:11:17 And his stuff is very diverse.
0:11:22 So people from Mexico, Canada, United States, Japan, Italy.
0:11:25 And so what he is trying to accomplish
0:11:28 with what seems to be a very simple ask or move
0:11:31 is to show that the same ingredients
0:11:34 is used very differently across all sorts of recipes
0:11:36 because of the culture people grew up in.
0:11:40 And so it’s just a small way to inject that view
0:11:42 that the world is bigger
0:11:44 or that a certain situation is bigger
0:11:47 than just our own perspective.
0:11:50 And that is worth looking and coming into situations
0:11:53 from multiple angles or with multiple views.
0:11:58 Diversity is about not accepting social roles
0:12:01 that are often passed upon us.
0:12:07 So having stereotypical views or using bias in situations
0:12:11 where instead we should come to appreciate differences.
0:12:14 One of the things that rebels do when it comes to diversity
0:12:18 is really looking at it as an opportunity
0:12:21 to explore and leverage difference.
0:12:22 And finally, we have authenticity.
0:12:26 Authenticity is all about being able to bring our voice
0:12:29 into the conversation, our contributions forward,
0:12:33 not being afraid of expressing our views, preferences,
0:12:34 and thoughts.
0:12:37 And so there we are fighting the tendency
0:12:40 that is so powerful and strong of conforming to others.
0:12:43 So think about last time you were in a meeting,
0:12:46 everybody else was thinking that X was the right course
0:12:50 of action, and you were the person who disagreed,
0:12:53 and you had the courage and willingness
0:12:56 to speak about your views.
0:12:58 And so you showed authenticity by bringing
0:13:00 your contributions forward.
0:13:03 All of these, in some ways, I think
0:13:06 we were saying a moment ago, are kind of about fighting
0:13:11 stagnation or the comfort of thinking you know.
0:13:15 You talk about surgeons who are deep experts in their field
0:13:20 being less willing to be open to new information
0:13:24 by virtue almost of their expertise
0:13:27 than younger, less experienced people.
0:13:30 What’s the relationship between the sort of like,
0:13:33 I’m becoming an expert because I’ve learned so much
0:13:38 and that frees me up to innovate more versus I settle
0:13:41 into my expertise and become more shut down
0:13:44 to sort of new perspective, new experience.
0:13:46 Yeah, you could imagine situations
0:13:48 where you become an expert, but you completely
0:13:50 have zero curiosity.
0:13:53 What that means is that you use your experience
0:13:56 to say, I have all the answer.
0:13:58 And instead, effective rebels are people
0:14:02 who accumulate their experience, but they still
0:14:05 approach the world thinking that their perspective might
0:14:08 be not necessarily the right perspective to use
0:14:09 to look at a problem.
0:14:14 I got very fascinated by this idea
0:14:16 that experience could lead to trouble.
0:14:19 We collected this quite incredible data set
0:14:23 where basically we were looking at the behavior of surgeons
0:14:25 in open arms for surgeries, what kind of technology
0:14:27 they were using.
0:14:30 And we exploited the fact that the Food and Drug Administration
0:14:35 back in 2006 put out an announcement that said basically
0:14:39 the technology that you’re using is not good for the patients.
0:14:42 And we were able to see whether the surgeons changed
0:14:45 their behavior, now knowing that what they were doing before
0:14:47 was not good for their patients.
0:14:51 And what we found is that the more experience the surgeon had,
0:14:53 the less likely they were to change their behavior.
0:14:55 And so that’s a situation where experience
0:15:00 is used as a sign of confidence that you have the right answer.
0:15:05 And instead, rebel leaders, or rebels more generally,
0:15:08 use their experience but always approach
0:15:11 the world with a curiosity that allows you to say,
0:15:15 what could be different here or what could I still learn?
0:15:17 So it’s the combination of all these different factors.
0:15:18 That’s exactly right.
0:15:20 It’s not just ticking a box.
0:15:22 It strikes me that all of these rebels
0:15:26 that you described had a clear understanding of the rules
0:15:28 before they decide to break them, right?
0:15:30 There is an enormous amount of assimilating of knowledge
0:15:33 coupled with this kind of willingness
0:15:37 to re-examine, to not have that turn into stagnation.
0:15:42 You said wisdom means rejecting the feeling of knowing.
0:15:44 I thought that was so interesting
0:15:47 that there’s something in and of itself about knowing
0:15:52 that almost stops the accumulation of more knowledge.
0:15:56 It’s having more knowledge, but we did also more humility.
0:15:59 So you know, you realize that the more you know,
0:16:02 is not that the more you know, is the more you know,
0:16:06 the more you know, the more there is something left
0:16:08 to discover and acquire.
0:16:11 One person that really brought this home
0:16:13 is Captain Sally Sullenberger.
0:16:16 He’s the person who was back on a cold evening in 2009,
0:16:19 ditched a plane in the Hudson River.
0:16:22 You have a person who had 208 seconds.
0:16:25 So that’s the time he had from when he discovered
0:16:26 that there was no thrust in the engine
0:16:28 at the time he ditched the plane in the Hudson River.
0:16:30 So very little time.
0:16:33 And yet he considered all sorts of options.
0:16:36 What we know from psychology is that most of us,
0:16:40 under such pressure and such level of anxiety and stress,
0:16:44 would narrow our thinking, narrow our perspective.
0:16:45 We didn’t.
0:16:47 He kept asking what it is that I could do.
0:16:49 And so I reached out to him.
0:16:52 I was totally fascinated by reading the report.
0:16:55 And one of the things that I discovered is that
0:16:57 by the time the accident happened,
0:16:59 he had a ton of experience.
0:17:01 Over 30,000 hours of flying experience.
0:17:02 He served in the military.
0:17:05 So he knew how to fly all sorts of planes.
0:17:09 He has served as a volunteer in previous accidents
0:17:11 to study what went wrong.
0:17:13 So he had a lot of knowledge about what can actually
0:17:15 go wrong on a plane.
0:17:17 And yet every time he walked into the cockpit,
0:17:20 he would ask himself what it is that could be different here.
0:17:22 He forced himself to come at it from a different angle
0:17:24 every time.
0:17:25 So that became habit.
0:17:26 Yes.
0:17:30 And it’s him having experience plus that intellectual
0:17:34 humility that allows you to say, but what could?
0:17:36 Or what’s left to learn?
0:17:39 You talk specifically about vulnerability,
0:17:42 being willing to open yourself up.
0:17:45 And what that communicates to others.
0:17:48 It’s not just a kind of building of trust.
0:17:50 It’s actually doing something else as well.
0:17:52 Can you talk a little bit about what that does,
0:17:53 that vulnerability?
0:17:53 Yeah.
0:17:59 So part of being authentic is being willing to make yourself
0:18:00 vulnerable.
0:18:03 And there is this story that I share in the book about a coach
0:18:05 called Maurice Cheeks.
0:18:10 We’ll go back to April, 2003, where prior to the game
0:18:13 starting, a girl went up in the middle of the arena
0:18:15 to sing the national anthem.
0:18:19 And so imagine 20,000 fans ready to watch the game,
0:18:21 millions of viewers from home.
0:18:25 And is there listening to the girl singing as everybody else?
0:18:30 And by the time the second sentence in the song arrives,
0:18:32 the girl can’t remember the words.
0:18:35 And what you see in the video clip of this moment
0:18:40 is that the coach went to her, put an arm around her,
0:18:42 and helped her sing.
0:18:44 When I read this story in your book,
0:18:46 I have to say I welled up a little bit.
0:18:48 It was very, very moving.
0:18:49 Yeah, very, very moving.
0:18:51 But what is interesting is that if you actually listen
0:18:55 to the clip of the moment, his voice sucks.
0:18:55 I’m sorry.
0:18:57 There is no better way of describing it.
0:19:02 And so it’s a great example of a person who put himself out
0:19:05 there without too much thinking and really showing
0:19:09 everybody, millions of viewers, thousands of fans.
0:19:12 That voice is clearly not one of his strengths.
0:19:13 And what is beautiful about the moment
0:19:15 is exactly what you said.
0:19:18 Unless you have no heart, you actually feel moved.
0:19:22 And you feel a great sense of respect for the coach.
0:19:26 And it’s a great example of how often our idea is about what
0:19:30 it is that is going to bias respect from others or influence.
0:19:33 We think that we need to show our perfect self to others.
0:19:34 And that’s not true.
0:19:37 Making ourselves vulnerable buys us respect.
0:19:39 That’s so interesting.
0:19:42 Is the willingness of people of leaders
0:19:44 to show that they have weaknesses,
0:19:47 to talk about their failures, or to talk about situations
0:19:50 in which they didn’t do the right thing.
0:19:52 We have this sense, again, of showing ourselves
0:19:55 as the perfect individual to others.
0:19:58 And it’s actually something that becomes stronger
0:20:00 when we become leaders.
0:20:04 Because we feel as if now we’re in a position where
0:20:05 we’re leading the course for others.
0:20:08 And it’s really the wrong idea.
0:20:11 Since it’s when we open up, talk about potential failures,
0:20:14 bad decisions, that people really relate to us.
0:20:17 And they look at us and say, you are actually a human being.
0:20:20 And there is a way I can trust you, respect you for what
0:20:22 you’re doing, and also for the mistakes you’ve made.
0:20:25 It seems that so much of this requires
0:20:27 a level of self-reflection.
0:20:31 To me, that was almost one of the missing categories here.
0:20:33 Or maybe underlying all of those categories
0:20:39 is the ability to know yourself and to be always trying
0:20:42 to notice your own patterns and your tendencies
0:20:45 and then push them in one direction or another.
0:20:48 Can you talk a little bit about how these rebels tend
0:20:52 to handle the self-knowledge part?
0:20:55 If you put authenticity and perspective together,
0:21:00 those two capture this idea of stopping, reflecting,
0:21:05 being aware of your own self and how you interact with others.
0:21:07 One of the things that makes us feel authentic
0:21:11 is knowing where the energy comes from and what you do.
0:21:14 And playing to our strengths is something
0:21:17 that we don’t put time in our calendar for.
0:21:19 So some of the interventions that we’ve
0:21:21 done in organizational context is
0:21:23 give people that time for reflection.
0:21:24 Oh, interesting.
0:21:27 So we did a big study in India, where
0:21:31 at the time of welcoming people to the organizations,
0:21:35 we asked a group of them to reflect on what their strength
0:21:38 was, what is unique about them, and how they could bring those
0:21:39 out in the work that they do.
0:21:42 And this is people going to work in a call center.
0:21:44 So where you pack the job to be scripted.
0:21:47 And it’s focused on the positive, the strengths, the not
0:21:48 that I need to do better at this.
0:21:49 That’s right.
0:21:53 And what we saw was increased performance, increased job
0:21:55 satisfaction, increased engagement,
0:21:57 and better retention rate.
0:22:00 And sometimes it’s not you reflecting on your strength.
0:22:04 It’s actually us going out to people
0:22:09 and asking them for stories of you at your best.
0:22:13 It’s so powerful when you feed those stories back to you,
0:22:15 because you see that you’re making contributions
0:22:18 that you have no clue of.
0:22:20 And you start creating your own profiles
0:22:23 of who you see yourself to be as a person.
0:22:25 And it is sort of like the hardest thing
0:22:28 that we as human beings can possibly do, right?
0:22:32 All of life is training us deeper into our own little
0:22:33 tributaries.
0:22:36 And you’re accumulating the knowledge that makes you you.
0:22:39 But it becomes hard to shift out of that.
0:22:42 What are some of the other ways in which,
0:22:45 either on an organizational level or on a personal level,
0:22:48 that you can encourage the resistance to stagnation,
0:22:50 basically?
0:22:54 There is a technique that is used in brainstorming sessions.
0:22:58 The entire technique, really, is built on something
0:23:01 that is very core to improve comedy, which
0:23:03 is the idea of the yes and.
0:23:04 So every time we have a discussion,
0:23:07 every time we have a meeting, every time we talk about decisions,
0:23:10 the idea is that I come into it with my perspective,
0:23:14 but with also the willingness to accept the view of others.
0:23:17 So let’s imagine you’re working on a scene.
0:23:23 And I come in and say, oh, this is a really yummy apple.
0:23:25 And you come in after me and say, no,
0:23:27 this is a small melon.
0:23:30 Maybe you got a laughter from the people in the audience,
0:23:32 but you just killed a scene.
0:23:36 And what improv is all about is accepting whatever ideas
0:23:39 is put on the table and then adding to it, building onto it.
0:23:45 So passing is exactly built around the same ideas of I accept
0:23:48 the idea, I might disagree with it,
0:23:51 but I’m going to take that for granted and then build on it.
0:23:54 And so if you think about how we interact with one another
0:23:59 or how we get to do our work with others,
0:24:02 often, passing is not what we do.
0:24:04 So you see lack of perspective in people
0:24:07 who say who shut down ideas that others have suggested.
0:24:11 Or even just debating them is not plusing.
0:24:14 It’s like staying where you are and kind of pulling it apart.
0:24:16 That’s exactly right.
0:24:18 Well, that reminds us of is to show perspective,
0:24:21 to show curiosity, to come to the table,
0:24:24 eager to learn from others.
0:24:28 I’ve been in way too many meetings as an observer
0:24:33 where what you see is people just bringing in their own views,
0:24:34 their own decisions.
0:24:37 Or as you’re talking, I’m already formulating.
0:24:39 My answer without really paying attention to you.
0:24:43 And so this idea of showing up with curiosity,
0:24:46 with perspective, with your eyes open to learn
0:24:51 is a good principle that drives a lot of rebelliousness
0:24:55 and organizations that really embrace these ideas.
0:24:56 It’s interesting because it almost sounds
0:24:59 like you’re describing being present.
0:25:00 And it’s difficult to do.
0:25:04 And sometimes you fight against your own beliefs.
0:25:05 Like one of the things that I’ve done
0:25:10 is to be more reflective about my own approach to work,
0:25:11 my own leadership, if you were.
0:25:14 But also my behavior back at home.
0:25:15 So I have three small children.
0:25:19 And if you were in my house, usually around 6
0:25:23 AM when people are starting to wake up,
0:25:25 as I’m making my coffee, usually two of my children,
0:25:28 if not three, are running around the kitchen,
0:25:29 opening cabinets.
0:25:32 And I used to stop that behavior because I thought
0:25:35 that you would end up in chaos, that they would never
0:25:36 get to work.
0:25:40 And after actually learning more from these rebels,
0:25:43 I joined in their explorations and asked them questions.
0:25:47 And I have to tell you that I’ve not arrived late at work
0:25:49 because I allowed those explorations to happen.
0:25:54 And I think I can think of one where my third is a year and a half
0:25:55 found the salt.
0:25:58 And she was shaking the salt like a priest in the kitchen.
0:25:59 And so there was salt on the floor.
0:26:01 But the entertainment value of that
0:26:05 was bigger than the cleaning up of the mess.
0:26:08 That’s so interesting because I’m also remembering
0:26:10 and thinking of all of our mornings
0:26:14 and thinking of how much there is pressing down on you
0:26:18 to shut all those things down because then none of us
0:26:19 will ever get to school on time.
0:26:23 You do have to re-evaluate and then
0:26:27 notice those pre-programmed responses
0:26:30 and then choose to swim upstream from them.
0:26:31 And I really liked in the section
0:26:35 where you talked about changing your own behavior
0:26:39 but also that your own behavior towards others
0:26:43 as part of your own expectations actually changes things.
0:26:45 So the first one seems kind of obvious, right?
0:26:47 But the second one that you actually
0:26:52 are setting change in motion just by changing your expectations
0:26:54 because of what it does to your own behavior
0:26:55 is really interesting.
0:26:58 Yeah, I was talking about some work
0:27:01 done on the pychmalium effect.
0:27:05 And what this research shows is that our expectation actually
0:27:08 leads us to pay a different amount of attention
0:27:13 to the people that we code to be good workers versus bad workers
0:27:16 or lazy people versus contributors.
0:27:21 And our expectations also lead them to behave differently.
0:27:23 Because if we have higher expectations,
0:27:26 people actually rise up to the challenge
0:27:30 and in fact become the productive people we expect them to be.
0:27:33 But how are those signals being transmitted?
0:27:35 Because you think you’re keeping it to yourself.
0:27:37 And we don’t.
0:27:39 So imagine situations where you’re the teacher
0:27:42 and I come and tell you this students in your class
0:27:44 from the test that we ran are going
0:27:47 to be having the greatest growth potential
0:27:49 and these other students are average.
0:27:52 And so what the studies showed is two things.
0:27:56 First, that the students you randomly
0:27:59 were chosen to be the good students or students that
0:28:02 ended up performing better at the end of the semester.
0:28:05 But also that your behavior towards them changed.
0:28:07 Where is it that you spend most of your attention?
0:28:10 Who did you give the benefit of the doubt to?
0:28:13 And so you’re reinforcing their ability to actually rise up
0:28:14 to the challenge.
0:28:17 And that is not different in work context.
0:28:22 As leaders, if I start off by saying that you’re OK, maybe
0:28:25 an average person working in my business versus I
0:28:27 know that you have this talent, I’m
0:28:29 much more likely to give you the benefit of the doubt.
0:28:32 To be there giving you constructive feedback when
0:28:34 you need it, to help you out when you face challenges.
0:28:39 And so you, in fact, end up being in the category
0:28:40 of the greatest performer.
0:28:42 That reminds me of where you talk
0:28:46 about what it means to hide certain feelings, right?
0:28:48 That when someone hides their feelings,
0:28:50 those who interact with him experience
0:28:52 a rise in their blood pressure.
0:28:56 Not only is the cost of that kind of lack of authenticity
0:28:59 on you, but there’s also just a simple cost
0:29:01 to just the hiding of them.
0:29:02 Is that right?
0:29:02 Exactly.
0:29:05 It comes back to a very simple notion,
0:29:11 which is we seem to have misplaced, mistaken predictions
0:29:14 about what is going to generate the best interactions
0:29:15 with others.
0:29:17 Whether I work or in life more generally.
0:29:19 So with authenticity, often we think, well,
0:29:22 we don’t want to show ourselves to others.
0:29:23 Let’s cover up.
0:29:25 A lot of research shows that not only, as you said,
0:29:28 we feel bad about it, because in authenticity,
0:29:29 it doesn’t feel good.
0:29:31 It creates a lot of discomfort.
0:29:33 In fact, people associate it, in a lot of cases,
0:29:37 as feeling tainted because they’re covering up
0:29:38 and being deceitful.
0:29:41 But it’s also picked up by others.
0:29:43 OK, so almost by definition of what
0:29:45 you’re talking about being rebellious
0:29:48 has this kind of idea of conflict at heart behind it,
0:29:51 that you’re not afraid of conflict
0:29:53 or that you introduce conflict.
0:29:56 Can you talk about a little bit how rebels tend
0:29:59 to handle conflict or create it around them
0:30:03 and how the people around them respond to it?
0:30:05 You’re going to end up with more conflict
0:30:07 because people are coming in and willing to state
0:30:11 their contributions or bring their ideas forward,
0:30:13 and then they’re going to debate them.
0:30:16 But the characteristics that is really important there
0:30:18 is the fact that we are disagreeing,
0:30:22 but again, from a point of acceptance of each other’s
0:30:22 views.
0:30:24 So the conversation doesn’t become one
0:30:28 where I need basically to prove that I’m right.
0:30:32 It’s coming in thinking I need to come to a good decisions,
0:30:35 and I’m going to be willing to stay open-minded and receptive
0:30:38 to what other people are actually saying.
0:30:39 Sounds like a good marriage.
0:30:41 That does sound like it.
0:30:47 And it’s so, I think, easy to say, but difficult to do.
0:30:50 This Chicago-based money management firm,
0:30:55 the leaders themselves call out the lack of conflict
0:30:56 in given situations.
0:31:02 So for example, there is one known phrase at the company.
0:31:04 One of the leaders there, Melody Obeson,
0:31:06 who’s the president, would stand up and say,
0:31:08 it’s time to make the donuts.
0:31:14 And it’s this reminder of an old ad at Dunkin’ Donuts,
0:31:17 where you see Fred the Baker wake up in the morning,
0:31:19 go to work, to make the donuts.
0:31:21 The day after, he would do the same thing.
0:31:22 The day after, he would do the same thing.
0:31:25 And so it’s reminding people that it’s very easy to just go
0:31:27 with the flow and have no conflict,
0:31:29 no disagreement about anything.
0:31:33 And so she snaps people out of that mode
0:31:36 and remind them of the importance of actually pushing
0:31:38 each other and challenge each other’s points of view.
0:31:41 So her point is, essentially, we’re making donuts, right?
0:31:42 Exactly.
0:31:44 OK, for all the people building companies,
0:31:47 as you’re building a culture in a new company,
0:31:50 wanting to, yes, encourage kind of free thinking
0:31:53 and encourage creativity, but we need things
0:31:54 to be smooth on some level.
0:31:56 So how do you balance those two things
0:31:59 when you’re building something from the very beginning?
0:32:03 So to me, it goes back to this idea of values.
0:32:05 And you want people really committed to the values.
0:32:08 But then, how they get there, or how is it
0:32:11 that they embrace the value, it’s OK for people
0:32:14 to have different ways of doing just that.
0:32:18 If you look at what we know in terms of level of engagement
0:32:22 in the workforce, the data is saddening.
0:32:23 It’s really upsetting, in a sense,
0:32:27 because most workplaces have 2/3 of their people
0:32:28 being disengaged.
0:32:33 And so what I saw in these labels is this full engagement
0:32:37 with life, whether it’s life at work, life at home,
0:32:40 and they seem to be making most out of it.
0:32:42 We are much more engaged in the work that we do.
0:32:44 We are more productive.
0:32:46 We end up having more creative or innovative ideas.
0:32:50 And so if anything, the question is, why not?
0:32:52 We should definitely make sure that there
0:32:54 is more rebelliousness in our life.
0:32:56 That’s very inspiring.
0:32:59 Thank you so much for joining us on the A16Z podcast.
0:33:01 Thank you so much for having me.